Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25094

 1                          Tuesday, 27 November 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, madam registrar, kindly

 6    call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Today is

10    Tuesday.  My greetings to all the people in the courtroom, the OTP

11    representatives, the Defence counsel, the accused, and all the people

12    helping us out.

13            I'll first give the floor to the registrar.  She has two IC

14    numbers to give us.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Prosecution response to Exhibits

16    tendered through Witness EA by the accused Stojic, Praljak, Petkovic and

17    Coric will become Exhibit IC 727, and Petkovic Defence objection to the

18    Prosecution list of exhibits tendered through Witness EA will become

19    Exhibit IC 728.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam

21    Registrar.

22            Mr. Kovacic wanted to say something, so he has the floor.

23            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, I won't be taking up too much time, at

24    least I hope not.  We discussed this, the plans and the scheduling and

25    calendar amongst the Defence teams following your recent ruling for the

Page 25095

 1    January scheduling, and we noticed that in fact we're not quite sure when

 2    in December we're adjourning before the winter break, and that's of course

 3    necessary for us to plan our -- to make our travelling arrangements for

 4    the winter.  So might the Trial Chamber perhaps with the assistance of the

 5    Prosecution tell us how long we're going to work in December and when we

 6    break for the recess.  We're not quite clear on that.  And yesterday we

 7    received a table with the documents for Witness Ribicic, where the --

 8    well, it was implied that the Prosecution would need four and a half hours

 9    for the examination-in-chief.  So he can't be over by the 11th, and I hope

10    that we'll be given at least the same amount of time, and the witness made

11    a prior statement, so I think that we will need some time for that too.

12    So by the end of the week we'd appreciate it in the Pre-Trial Chamber

13    would tell the Prosecution and -- well, all of us, what the plan is and

14    when we're going to end in December.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

16    continues] ... can tell us what the scheduling is for the next few days

17    knowing that apparently next week what was scheduled will not materialise.

18    I know that the Trial Chamber's legal officer invited the Prosecution to

19    find witnesses for next week, and also I'm a bit vague as to the witnesses

20    scheduled afterwards, prior to the 13th of December.

21            Do you have any information, Mr. Stringer?

22            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you, and

23    good afternoon to Your Honours, counsel, and to everyone else.

24            In respect of the scheduling that we envisioned for the remainder

25    of this year, we distributed a calendar to counsel.  I believe it was last

Page 25096

 1    week.  It may have even been the week before, and I know there have been

 2    some changes.  Unfortunately, mostly relating to witnesses who are not

 3    going to be coming as scheduled.  However, Judge Ribicic is one that is

 4    still on our calendar as indicated for the 10th, I believe.

 5            I can also inform you, Mr. President, that in fact I spent most of

 6    this morning attempting to look into all possibilities of witnesses who

 7    might be able to come and to fill in some of the downtime for next week,

 8    those being witnesses identified by the Trial Chamber as potentially 92

 9    bis witnesses who would need to come.

10            I don't have any more information for Your Honours on that, and

11    I -- I guess I would say that Mr. Scott yesterday said that he was not

12    optimistic about next week, and I think to be candid, I would say that

13    again today.  We're not optimistic about next week, but we are attempting

14    to recover.  But certainly in respect of the forward schedule into

15    December, we have every intention of bringing Judge Ribicic as scheduled,

16    and so that will hold.  And then on the 13th and the 12th, then, which

17    would be the last two days prior to the break, I think that we still are

18    holding those open in the hope that we'll be able to fill those again with

19    perhaps one of the 92 bis witnesses that's been identified or suggested by

20    the Trial Chamber.

21            So that's -- that's the status at this moment.  So Ribicic is on

22    the calendar, and we're still looking to fill the additional time that

23    remains in December.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, Judge Ribicic is

25    scheduled on the 10th, isn't he?  Couldn't he come next week?  Because a

Page 25097

 1    judge is not overwhelmed with work, usually.  So he might be able to come

 2    if he's advised of the need to come early enough.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  We understand that he's not --

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You know that I'm not speaking

 5    about myself when I speak about judges.

 6            MR. STRINGER:  I understand that.  I have every confidence that

 7    this Trial Chamber has plenty of work to do every day.

 8            I can inform you that Judge Ribicic is not in his home country of

 9    Slovenia, nor is he in Europe.  He's out of Europe at a conference, and I

10    can tell you for sure that he is not available next week, unfortunately.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Well, I can see that

12    there are judges who have time enough to go and attend conferences, which

13    unfortunately doesn't apply to me.  Thank you for this information.  We

14    shall endeavour to do our best.

15            Let's bring the witness in, and we hope we'll be able to complete

16    his testimony today.  It's absolutely necessary to finish him today.

17            I understand that the first will be Mr. Ibrisimovic, since I've

18    received his binder.

19                          [The witness entered court]

20                          WITNESS:  AMOR MASOVIC [Resumed]

21                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  I hope

23    everything works.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You have the floor,

Page 25098

 1    Mr. Ibrisimovic.

 2            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

 4       Q.   [Interpretation] I'd like to say good afternoon to Mr. Masovic

 5    because we know each other from some other situations and we happen to be

 6    in the courtroom.

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Ibrisimovic speak into his

 8    microphone.  He's a long way away from his microphone and we can't hear

 9    him very well.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Can you put the microphone closer to your mouth.

11            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   The first thing that I wanted to ask you, and you spoke about this

13    yesterday, and I read this in an interview of yours perhaps a month or two

14    ago that Bosnia-Herzegovina still has a lot of problems with the missing

15    persons, and you even mentioned a figure of some 12.000 people; is that

16    right?

17       A.   Yes, that is right.  Perhaps the figure is a little smaller

18    because some of those people have been found but not identified, so that

19    their names are still on the list of missing persons or in fact they have

20    been found but not identified.

21       Q.   But it is a large number, a vast number, and that question, the

22    question of missing persons and the large number, means that there are

23    many grave sites that have not been discovered yet, I would say?

24       A.   On the basis of my experience, and I have had many years of

25    experience, 15 years, in fact, we're still looking for 180 to 200 mass

Page 25099

 1    graves, graves with five or more victims in them, and probably several

 2    hundred other individual grave sites.

 3            Do you want me to repeat the answer?

 4       Q.   No.  I think it's been recorded.

 5            The second thing that I wanted to ask you, and I talked to

 6    Mr. Pusic about this, when I read your statement -- or statements, rather,

 7    I think there were three of them, and they related to what you know about

 8    Mr. Pusic and what I heard you say yesterday in court, was there a

 9    conflict of any kind between Mr. Pusic and you apart from the work you did

10    in the commissions and so on?

11       A.   We represented, during a period of time, two opposing sides.

12    There were no personal conflicts, but we were on two different sides as

13    negotiators, and after 1997, Mr. Pusic was chosen to be the first chief of

14    the federal commission for missing persons, and I was appointed his deputy

15    for the first three months, and then we continued to rotate, and one of us

16    would be the chairman or vice-chairman of the federal commission.  We

17    would rotate until Mr. Pusic was replaced.

18       Q.   Well, I'm happy to hear that I was wrong in the impression I

19    gained, because Mr. Pusic said your cooperation with him was mostly proper

20    and correct?

21       A.   Within the frameworks of the negotiations that took place, I do

22    believe that he tried to represent the interests of the party and the side

23    that he represented, just as I tried to represent the interests of my side

24    and the government in Sarajevo.

25       Q.   I'd like now to go back to a question that was discussed yesterday

Page 25100

 1    that you testified, in fact, yesterday, the question of exhumations, and

 2    you said how you arrived at information, i.e., that you went on the site

 3    and so on?

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Excuse me,

 5    Mr. Ibrisimovic.

 6            You said something, Witness, and the counsel just glassed over it.

 7    It might be relevant.  You said in 1997 Mr. Pusic was president of the

 8    federal commission and you yourself were his deputy, you said, and you

 9    added that he was dismissed.  Why was he dismissed, and who did so?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yesterday we touched upon that

11    question, and I can confirm that in July 1997, by decision of the

12    government of the federation Mr. Pusic was appointed the first presiding

13    person, chairman, of the federal commission for missing persons, and I was

14    appointed the vice-chairman.  The decision had another provision which

15    stated that the two of us would take turns in these two posts, the posts

16    of chairman and vice-chairman, and that we would rotate every three

17    months, and that's what happened.  We took over from each other until

18    Mr. Pusic was replaced, relieved of his duties in another commission which

19    was called the commission for de-mining, which was at a state level of

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say both the Bosnian and Herzegovinian

21    entities, but that decision about his replacement from the commission for

22    de-mining automatically meant that he could no longer perform any other

23    public offices in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that Mr. Pusic, to all intents

24    and purposes, pursuant to that decision and being replaced in the

25    commission for de-mining, he lost his post in the commission, the federal

Page 25101

 1    commission for missing persons.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why?  Why was he replaced?  Was

 3    there a reason and, if so, what was it?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it was only Mr. Pusic

 5    who was replaced.  I think the decision taken by the High Representative

 6    of Bosnia-Herzegovina comprised all three members of the commission for

 7    de-mining and that there was some talk of corruption, but I'm only telling

 8    you what I read in the media, not on the basis of any personal information

 9    that I had or any contacts with the gentleman.  So all three members for

10    the commission for de-mining were replaced from that post for reasons of

11    corruption.

12            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   The decision was one in 2002, and it is true that they were all

14    replaced.  However, they were rehabilitated by 2004, and there were no

15    legal proceedings taken against Mr. Pusic in the matter of corruption.

16       A.   Well, I said what the media wrote about, what I read about in the

17    papers and what I learnt through the media.  That's what I said, how the

18    media presented it, that they were replaced.  Now, what happened later on,

19    whether they were rehabilitated or not, I really don't know.  Mr. Pusic

20    did not return to the commission ever again, the commission for missing

21    persons.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to go back to a topic that you discussed

23    with my learned friend yesterday, and that is the question of exhumation,

24    and you've already described to us how the exhumations came about, in what

25    way they were carried out.  And we're going to use some documents now in

Page 25102

 1    that regard, so might the witness be provided with some documents.

 2            You told us yesterday that the number 16 was mentioned for the

 3    first time at the meeting that was held in Geneva, and as I understand it,

 4    it was an informal discussion between you and Mr. Pusic.  It wasn't a

 5    formal meeting?

 6       A.   No, it wasn't it happened on the 20 of July during the excursion

 7    around Lake Geneva and to the town of Montreux.

 8       Q.   Never before that or after that did Mr. Pusic mention this number,

 9    this number 16?

10       A.   Yes that's right.

11       Q.   I took a look at your statements, you have them in front of you,

12    but I don't think there's any need to look at them.  When you gave a

13    statement to the Prosecution, I don't think you mentioned the figure of

14    16.  There was -- the figure of 12 and 13 and you explained that to us

15    yesterday now would you take a look at the document, please, the first

16    document.  It's 6D 00758.

17       A.   I need some assistance here because I can't find my way in these

18    numbers.  Can you repeat the number?

19       Q.   6D 00758 is the number.  And it's a document towards the end of

20    the binder.  That's where you'll find it.  It is a letter, the main

21    cantonal prosecutor's office in Mostar, Mr. Mehmed Basic.  Mehmed Basic?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   He is informing -- yes, kindly make pauses between question and

24    answer.  Thank you.  He is informing through the Federal Ministry of

25    Justice in Sarajevo the Prosecution about what was done up until the 21st

Page 25103

 1    of September, 2007; right?

 2       A.   That's what it says in the document.

 3       Q.   It is the report on exhumation, the photo -- photographs, photo

 4    documents, the DNA results, and then finally he says, "As for other

 5    information requested by the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, please

 6    note that this prosecutor's office cannot provide you with that

 7    information at this moment because of the ongoing investigations in the

 8    matter," which mean the investigation had not been completed yet.

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.

10       Q.   Now, we can go back to a document you saw led the number is

11    P 100322.  It's a Prosecution document.

12       A.   I've got it.

13       Q.   This is a record on exhumation, and any exhumation is a very

14    formal, very strict job which requires a procedure.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   The people present were a prosecutor and an anthropologist of the

17    international commission for missing.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Sanja Mulac on behalf of the commission for missing persons?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   The on-site investigation continued on the following day and the

22    number is P 100323.  That's the number of document, P 100323.

23            On that day you were present as well?

24       A.   Yes, I was.

25       Q.   I suppose the reason was that you had received information that

Page 25104

 1    these could be the remains of the BiH army members and that's why you

 2    found yourself in Mostar on that day?

 3       A.   Yes.  My colleagues from Republika Srpska who were there together

 4    with the prosecutor's office from Trebinje and started the exhumation, and

 5    Mrs. Mulac who was an observer observing the exhumation noticed some parts

 6    of uniforms, trousers and camouflage uniforms that the members of the BiH

 7    army wore during the conflict.  That was the first time where a suspicion

 8    arose that those skeletons might belong to the Vranica building.  However,

 9    at that moment on the 17 of May, we still didn't know that for a fact.  On

10    the 18th of May, and this document pertains to the 18th of May when I was

11    there, on the 18th of May there were some very well-founded indicia that

12    the bodies were of the prisoners from Vranica.  On the arm of one of the

13    victims we discovered a Seiko 50 watch with the date indicated on it as

14    Thursday 14th.  The on-site inspection revealed that Thursday the 14th was

15    the month of May, 1993.  Since this group was imprisoned on the 10th of

16    May, this led us to assume that those people might hail from Vranica.

17    However, at that moment we could not be certain of that.

18       Q.   My questions were somewhat different.  Mr. Mehmedic Nijaz, the

19    Prosecutor was also present from Mostar?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   The prosecutor from Trebinje was there?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   The anthropologist of the international commission for missing

24    persons?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 25105

 1       Q.   Zeljko Karan, the pathologist from Banja Luka?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   On the second page of this document the Prosecutor issues an order

 4    for these remains to be transferred to the city cemetery in Mostar where

 5    the laboratory findings will show how many bodies were located in the mass

 6    grave.

 7       A.   Yes, and carry out the identification.

 8       Q.   And here we have a sentence by the Prosecutor who says during the

 9    exhumation of skeletal remains of human origin it was very difficult to

10    follow the continuity of the bodies because the skeletal remains were

11    rather mixed up.  Was that the case?

12       A.   Yes, it was.

13       Q.   On the last page of this document the forensic pathologist,

14    Dr. Karan, says that this was a primary grave, and according to the

15    exhumed remains, it could be concluded that the number of bodies was at

16    least 20.

17       A.   Although this has been recorded in that way, at my question Dr.

18    Karan told me that there were at least 24 different victims in that grave.

19      And then I asked him how did he conclude that, because I had inspected

20    the skeletal remains during the exhumation and I arrived at a conclusion

21    that the figure was a bit lower.  He told me that there were 24 right

22    femurs, i.e., 24 upper leg bones.  At that moment, I had my reservations

23    about that, and on that same day when we took the remains over and when

24    they were transported to the morgue in Stotina, we counted the bones of

25    arms and legs, and we arrived at a conclusion that a maximum number of

Page 25106

 1    victims, judging by the number of the bones of the extremities, that there

 2    were no more than 16 victims altogether.

 3       Q.   But I can't see it in the record.

 4       A.   No.  This was not recorded on site.  This is a record by our

 5    colleagues from Republika Srpska, i.e., the district prosecutor from

 6    Trebinje.  The record on exhumation, as far as I know, was not drafted by

 7    the cantonal prosecutor from Mostar because the exhumation had been

 8    ordered and carried out by the prosecutor from Trebinje.  As for the rest,

 9    the issue of the reassociation of the mortal remains from the 24 body bags

10    that had been transported from the site, the question of the autopsy and

11    final identification of the victims would be carried out pursuant to the

12    order of the cantonal prosecutor in Mostar.

13       Q.   Yesterday the Prosecutor did not show you the findings on the

14    anthropologist.  This finding does not mention the number of 16 victims,

15    does it?

16       A.   What is that?

17       Q.   Dr. Eva Klanovska [as interpreted] doesn't say that the number of

18    victims is 16.

19       A.   What findings are you referring to?

20       Q.   That is the findings of the institute -- or, rather, in

21    international commission for missing persons which was signed by Dr. Eva

22    Konovski -- Elvira Klanovska.

23       A.   Do I have it in my file?

24       Q.   Yes.

25       A.   Did you tell me the number?

Page 25107

 1       Q.   10331 is the number.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you

 3    to make breaks between questions and answers.  Thank you.

 4            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   I understand that this is not the final findings, that this is the

 6    preliminary findings based on the DNA analysis leading to the

 7    reassociation or matching of the body parts, but this findings does not

 8    mention the number of 16 bodies.  The number 16 is not mentioned.

 9       A.   Yes, that's correct.  This anthropological findings on

10    reassociation does not show that the number of victims was 16.

11       Q.   You were -- you mentioned yesterday that the grave could even be a

12    secondary grave.

13       A.   I'm convinced that it was a secondary grave, because there were

14    some parts of the skeletal remains missing.  None of the 16 victims was

15    complete.  Each and every one of them is missing a part of the skeleton.

16       Q.   I appreciate that opinion.  You have a lot of experience.  I know

17    that personally, but when it comes to such things and if we're talking

18    about the secondary grave, then the reassociation and matching of the

19    skeletal remains is very difficult, and it's very difficult to establish

20    the exact number of victims.

21       A.   Yes, you're right, but the reassociation and the DNA analysis that

22    have been carried out show clearly that some skeletal parts are missing,

23    i.e., they were missing from the grave and they're missing in the morgue.

24    For example, parts of the skull are missing.  They're simply not there.

25       Q.   What I was saying is that the procedure that has been carried so

Page 25108

 1    far points to the fact that there were 15 victims, and we don't have any

 2    official data confirming the number of 16.

 3       A.   Yes.  We have 15 names of the victims, and we have a 16th DNA

 4    analysis which does not match with the blood of any family that reported a

 5    missing relative.  In the laboratory we have confirmation that there were

 6    16 DNA samples that belonged to 16 different persons, 15 of which have

 7    been identified, and the 16th person has not been identified.

 8       Q.   Maybe we're talking about at cross-purposes.  Anthropology is a

 9    very sophisticated science and requires a lot of knowledge, and this

10    anthropological findings does not confirm that there were 16 bodies in

11    that grave.

12       A.   Not in this findings, but if you're asking me as the head of the

13    commission, what I know about this, I can confirm to you that we're

14    talking about a total of 16 victims.  Maybe it should be clarified why the

15    reassociation is done in the first place.  The reassociation is carried

16    out in order to -- before the DNA analysis, in order to send as few

17    skeletal samples as possible to the laboratory.  In this particular case,

18    instead of 16 samples that would have been normal to send if we had had 16

19    compact victims from a primary grave, for example, instead of sending 16

20    teeth from the 16 victims, we had to send 90 different specimen, 90

21    different samples.  So if we're talking about 16 victims, on average it

22    would be five or six samples per victim.

23            This is what we did, because the skeletal remains were mixed up.

24    The victims skulls had been fractured.  The lower jaws had been separated

25    from the upper part of the skull, and the anthropological analysis could

Page 25109

 1    not match the lower jaws with the bodies.

 2            If you are missing only two vertebrae in the spine, you -- you

 3    lose the continuity of the body and that's why you have to send for a DNA

 4    analysis two parts of the body, the upper part and the lower part.  That's

 5    why the anthropological reassociation is done first, and the

 6    anthropologist, based on his expert knowledge, can determine which two

 7    legs belonged to one body.  And then we don't send the samples from both

 8    those legs.  We do not destroy the skeletal material.  We usually send

 9    only one leg sample, usually the right leg sample.  And when we obtain the

10    DNA analysis from that leg then we know which leg is the left leg from the

11    same body because anthropologically they are the same and the

12    anthropology -- anthropologist can determine that.

13       Q.   I was suggesting to you that in such sensitive methods an error is

14    something that happens.  Let me give you an educational example.  A

15    gentleman whom we know, a professor who died, when the grave was opened he

16    determined that there were five skeletal remains, and later on it was

17    determined that there were actually six bodies in question.

18       A.   Yes.  This is a good example.  I'm glad you mentioned it.

19    Dr. Klanovska during the exhumation established that there were six

20    victims in question which the local forensic expert, unfortunately, did

21    not accept, and later on through DNA analysis it was confirmed that the

22    number was actually six.

23       Q.   [No interpretation]

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel come closer to the microphone

25    and would the counsel and would the witness and counsel please note

Page 25110

 1    overlap.

 2       A.   Yes, but you said it, he was a pathologist, a forensic

 3    pathologist.  The reassociation is not an issue for forensic pathologists

 4    but for forensic anthropologists.  Those are the persons that share the

 5    same qualifications with Dr. Klanovska.

 6       Q.   What I'm trying to say is when grave is opened, especially if the

 7    secondary grave is in question, an error is not excluded.

 8       A.   When a secondary grave is opened, the experts may make a mistake,

 9    and I said it in the introduction to my testimony.  Dr. Karan who was in

10    charge of this exhumation said and you can see it in the record, he said

11    20 bodies at least.  To me he said 24 bodies, Dr. Klanovska and the DNA

12    confirmed that the number was actually 16.  There were 16 bodies.

13       Q.   We have agreed that that number does not figure in Dr. Klanovska's

14    findings, so we can move on to another topic.

15            The talks between you and Mr. Pusic about Vranica, I know that

16    Vranica was something that was something that -- for which there was a lot

17    of pressure, but there were some other issues, Bugojno, and other things,

18    that also burdened your relationship.

19       A.   Yes.  I would say that our relationship was burdened but not so

20    much our relationship but the negotiations because of the complexity of

21    the matter, because of the interdependence of these cases and the whole

22    situation resulted in a stalemate, and even those things that could have

23    been solved because of the circumstances and the sensitivity of these

24    cases, and yesterday I spoke about the case -- cases of Vranica and

25    Bugojno, two very similar cases on two different sides.  In the Vranica

Page 25111

 1    case this was aired on TV, and in the Bugojno case the victims were

 2    registered by the International Red Cross, and they had sent messages to

 3    their families that they were alive, that they were healthy, and after

 4    that these people were taken away and probably killed, because they have

 5    been missing for 14 years now.  There are some testimonies about their

 6    killings and --

 7       Q.   What I'm saying is that there was a lot of pressure both on you

 8    and Mr. Pusic.

 9       A.   In -- this was one of the cases of the many cases that for a

10    number of years --

11            JUDGE PRANDLER:  May I ask Mr. Ibrisimovic and also you, Witness,

12    that you have to really make some pause and break between your questions

13    and answers.  It was also asked by the president a few minutes ago, and it

14    is our constant problem, and not only ours but mainly the interpreters,

15    that especially when you are speaking your mother tongue, then of course

16    you are not going to take care of the speed of your talking, and please do

17    so, and be so kind to really helping the interpreters in this way.  Thank

18    you.

19            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll do our best to

20    make everybody's work easier.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try and follow the screen, the

22    display on the screen, and then wait until I see it appearing on the

23    screen and then give my answer.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Counsel.

25            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25112

 1       Q.   I'm going to repeat a question, because I don't think the answer

 2    was recorded.  I asked you before Geneva and after Geneva, when you talked

 3    to Mr. Pusic about Vranica, the number 16 was never mentioned.  It was

 4    always 12 or 13 for missing persons; is that right?  You told me that that

 5    was so; right?

 6       A.   Yes, that is correct.  Mostly the figures mentioned were 13 people

 7    from Vranica, that is before Geneva and after Geneva.

 8       Q.   If you look at your file then you'll find document 2 -- 6D 00749.

 9    If you look at page 3, you'll see it's a letter from Mr. Pusic requesting

10    from the security services of Mostar to provide him with information with

11    respect to the fate of the persons missing, both Croats and Bosniaks, who

12    went missing during the conflict.  And the date is the 3rd of August,

13    1995.  So that's towards the end of the war.

14       A.   I have two documents under that same number.

15       Q.   It's a three-page document, and if you look at the third page.

16       A.   There's a different date on the third page.  It says the 28th of

17    July, 1995, and they're different documents in fact.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Counsel, please.

19            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   The date here is the 28th of July, 1995, where Mr. Pusic is

21    writing to the SIS in Mostar, and the date, the 3rd of August, is the

22    reply to the request made by Mr. Pusic with respect to the missing

23    soldiers.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Counsel, please.

25            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25113

 1       Q.   The answer refers to Mr. Pusic's letter.

 2       A.   I'm afraid that something's missing here, that I'm missing the

 3    first page of this document, because these three pieces of paper are quite

 4    obviously not the total document in the file.

 5       Q.   Well, let's take it in chronological order.  Let's look at the

 6    first document dated the 28th of July, 1995.  Let's look at that first.

 7       A.   Very well.

 8       Q.   It is a letter from Mr. Pusic to the Mostar security service;

 9    right?

10       A.   That's right, yes.

11       Q.   Now, when we have that, then we have a letter from the security

12    and information service of Mostar of the 3rd of August, which refers to

13    the letter sent by Mr. Pusic.

14            All I want to say is that Mr. Pusic raised this issue, the issue

15    of the missing soldiers, after the conflicts which were over in 1994.  So

16    the question of the soldiers missing from Vranica, and Mr. Pusic wrote

17    about this, that was 10 or 11 years ago, of course, and he asked for more

18    information.

19       A.   It doesn't say explicitly here that they are searching for members

20    of the army from Vranica.  That's the first point.  Secondly, in my

21    opinion this document doesn't follow any logic.  If Mr. Pusic, in July

22    1995, speaks about an exchange of the bodies of those who were killed,

23    then there's something amiss there, something that's not in order, because

24    in Washington we reached an agreement to release all the prisoners and to

25    hand over the bodies of those people who had been killed, and from

Page 25114

 1    mid-1994 or thereabouts there were no more exchanges of dead bodies

 2    between the BH army and the HVO, Croatian Defence Council.  So I don't

 3    know why in July 1995 he would be referring to exchanges, because at that

 4    time the exchange of either living persons or dead persons just took place

 5    between the BH army and the Serb side, and the Croatian Defence Council

 6    and the Serb side.  But there was no mutual exchange as far as I can

 7    remember.

 8       Q.   Well, perhaps it wasn't put in the best way, but what I want to

 9    say is that he did raise the issue, and he requested information about

10    missing persons, and at that time members from the -- the army members

11    from the Vranica building were considered missing.

12       A.   Yes, you're right.  They were considered missing until the 18th of

13    May or a little after the 18th of May when the first DNA results arrived.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Now let's go back to something you were talking about

15    yesterday.  The Presiding Judge asked you a question.  I know that in

16    August 1992 you became a member of the commission, and it was called the

17    State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War at the time.

18            Now, would you have a look at 6D 00798, please.  That's another

19    document in your file.

20       A.   All I have is 00757.  That's the last document in my binder.

21       Q.   6D 708.  I'm sorry, I made a mistake.  I meant to say 708.  That's

22    the last number.

23            The president of the commission was the Deputy Justice Minister,

24    Mr. Bibic; is that right?

25       A.   That's right, but there's a mistake in the translation.  It says

Page 25115

 1    Bibic.  It should be Muhibic.  That's the name.

 2       Q.   In Article 7 of this decision on the establishment of the

 3    commission the mandate of the commission is set out, its terms of

 4    reference.  And you testified about that yesterday, did you not?

 5       A.   That's right.  Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   Now take a look at the next document, P 3191.  P 3191.  Have you

 7    found it?

 8       A.   Yes, I have.

 9       Q.   It is a decision dated the 5th of July, 1993, where Mr. Pusic is

10    being appointed the head of the service for the exchange of prisoners and

11    other persons, and under that we have the decision on the establishment of

12    the service, and in Article 2 its mandate, the is service's mandate.  And

13    if you compare the mandate of the state commission from the BH government

14    decision and Article 2 of this decision, then that mandate is more or less

15    the same, is it not?

16       A.   I think that the mandate of the state commission was a little

17    broader in scope.  So the state commission for the exchange of prisoners

18    of war and persons deprived of liberty, records of those killed, wounded,

19    and missing.  That's the additional mandate which is broader and is set

20    out in the title.  It is a broader mandate than this decision that you're

21    pointing to.  And the state commission in, its composition, had three

22    subcommissions.  One was for the exchange of POWs.  One was for records of

23    those missing, and a third one was for the records of those dead and

24    wounded.

25       Q.   Well, I just wanted to show you that the HVO had a similar

Page 25116

 1    department or service dealing with these questions.  Now, which had

 2    broader authority doesn't matter.  I just wanted to show that this service

 3    existed and that it dealt with those matters.  Is that right?

 4       A.   Yes, with the proviso that the state commission was established in

 5    April, the month of April.

 6       Q.   This is a July 1992 decision.  Perhaps it was established earlier

 7    or taken earlier, but it was published in July 1992.

 8            The state commission on the basis of this was formed in July 1992.

 9    The decision was made public in the Official Gazette.  It might have been

10    actually established earlier on, but the prime minister signed the

11    decision in 1992 and that's when it was made public.  And you became a

12    member in August 1992, did you not?

13       A.   Yes, that is right, but within the Ministry of Defence I think the

14    then minister of defence, which was Mr. Jerko Doko, already in April had

15    established a commission for exchanges, which was functioning in April.

16    And then at the level of the BH government a decision was taken in July to

17    establish a state commission with the full title that it had and that we

18    mentioned a moment ago.

19       Q.   You told us yesterday that you met Mr. Pusic for the first time on

20    the 29th of December, 1993; is that right?

21       A.   As far as I remember, I contacted another member, had contacts

22    with another member, or, rather, Mr. Pusic's deputy, and that was on the

23    9th of November, 1993, in Jablanica and Konjic where we reached an

24    agreement to release persons.

25       Q.   You said that you had information that the exchange took place at

Page 25117

 1    a local level and that it functioned fairly well, that there was no need

 2    for you to intervene.

 3       A.   There were two reasons for which I did not intervene.  One was

 4    that the exchanges functioned to all intents and purposes not only at the

 5    level of Herzegovina but Vitez, Travnik, Busovaca, Kiseljak.  That is to

 6    say -- and Zenica in Central Bosnia, that is, and the other reason, as I

 7    said, was about the blockades, that Sarajevo was under siege three -- for

 8    three and a half years, and after the conflict broke out between the BH

 9    army and the Croatian Defence Council there was a blockade and siege of

10    Mostar as well.

11       Q.   So you received reports from time to time, but there were no

12    problems, no major problems with respect to the exchanges between the HVO

13    and these local commissions?

14       A.   Well, that's right.  But I'd like to say that they were exchanges

15    of a lesser intensity and -- involving fewer people.  So lower-level

16    exchanges.  Mostly they were a number of wounded from both sides, members

17    of the two sides' armies, or the exchange of bodies of people who had been

18    killed in combat, and also in part POW exchanges.

19       Q.   Now, in your statement you say -- in your statement I came across

20    a section where you said that Dziho Orucevic, Juso Jeli [as interpreted]

21    were involved in all that, Dziho, Zlatan Buljko, et cetera.  People who

22    dealt with this, were involved in this during that period would be better

23    placed to talk about it, and those people who negotiated with Mr. Pusic

24    during that period of time.

25       A.   Yes, with the exception of Mr. Zlatan Buljko.  I don't think I

Page 25118

 1    know him, judging by his first and last name.  And even if he did attend

 2    some of the negotiations that I attended, it might have been just once.

 3    But as I say, the name does not sound familiar.  And apart from the other

 4    people you mentioned, I remember Mr. Ali Alikadic when it comes to

 5    Herzegovina, and in the case of Central Bosnia I -- on the BH army side,

 6    the negotiations were conducted by Samir Sefer from Travnik, and

 7    Mrs. Bolic, Emira Bolic [phoen] from Zenica, as well as Mr. Causevic,

 8    Spaho Causevic, the head of the district commission for the exchange of

 9    POWs for Zenica.

10       Q.   Well, I mentioned Mr. Buljko's name because he testified here, and

11    he said that he attended some negotiations with Mr. Pusic, but it doesn't

12    matter.  We won't go into that if you say you don't know him.

13            Now, the relationship between the state commission and the other

14    commissions that existed on the ground, the army commissions, was there a

15    relationship of subordination?  Was one -- were some superior, others

16    subordinate?  Were they duty-bound to report back and, if so, to whom?

17    Can you tell us about that?

18       A.   There were two periods in the development of the state commission,

19    two stages.  After the formation of the district as a -- or districts as

20    administrative units in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm not sure when that

21    was, the regional commissions were formed in Tuzla, Mostar, Bihac, and in

22    Zenica, too, and those regional commissions were responsible to the state

23    commission -- or, rather, to the president of the state commission, and

24    they had the duty when negotiating with the opposing side or sides that if

25    they reached an agreement for an exchange of some kind they would have to

Page 25119

 1    request permission from the president of the state commission, who would

 2    then approve it or not, but mostly he approved it.  There were just

 3    situations that were challenged when -- if they were -- if -- if they

 4    concerned persons who were in prison under the government's control and

 5    against whom legal proceedings had been initiated.  So those persons were

 6    not included in the exchange process before the Presidency as the head of

 7    state made the decision to pardon them if they had been found guilty or

 8    unless an amnesty was decided.

 9            I think in March 1993, attached to the corps of the BH army

10    commissions were established to take care of the prisoners of war, and for

11    a time those acted autonomously, independently.  And let me tell you that

12    we for a time had some disagreements with those commissions, because they

13    did not respect the requests of the state commission for exchanging

14    prisoners of war.  Later on in the contacts we had, that is to say the

15    state commissions relationships and contacts with the Ministry of Defence

16    and with the General Staff of the BH army, an agreement was reached

17    whereby those commissions, too, were duty-bound to act pursuant to the

18    state commission's instructions for the exchange of prisoners of war.

19       Q.   At that moment those military commission were not under the

20    umbrella of the government commission?

21       A.   They were never formally part of the state commission.  They were

22    part of the respective corps of the BiH army, and they were led by the

23    military personnel, and they were responsible to the corps commanders.

24    I'm talking about the commissions that took care of the POWs that were

25    established as of March 1993.

Page 25120

 1       Q.   But I believe these commissions had a mandate to somehow

 2    participate in the exchanges.

 3       A.   Yes.  They joined us.  Their representatives would later on be

 4    sent to the negotiations and they were present at all the negotiations

 5    where I was and where negotiations were taking place.

 6       Q.   I found it in some reports that your counterpart in Central Bosnia

 7    was Nikica Petrovic; is that correct?   I'm talking about Vitez and

 8    Srednja Bosna [as interpreted] and in Kiseljak it was Mr. Ivo Miro Jovic;

 9    is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Until recently he was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and

12    Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

13       A.   That's correct.

14       Q.   Just for the transcript, the correct name is Ivo Miro Jovic.  And

15    the area is Kiseljak.  This has not been recorded.

16            Yesterday you testified under oath and you spoke about those

17    meetings and negotiations with Mr. Pusic.  I assume, I was never a

18    negotiator in such a situation, when you come for negotiations you have a

19    programme you have a mandate you have a goal that you want to achieve; is

20    that correct?

21       A.   That's correct.

22       Q.   Every negotiator by the logic of things want -- wants to achieve a

23    maximum, to get as much as they can out of those negotiations?

24       A.   That's correct.

25       Q.   However, the negotiations were not only in the domain of

Page 25121

 1    Mr. Masovic and Mr. Pusic.  Things would sometimes be resolved at levels

 2    higher than you.  You had to follow somebody's instructions.  Wouldn't

 3    that be correct?

 4       A.   What do you mean when you say above us?

 5       Q.   Sometimes things would happen that you did not have any influence

 6    on.  You could not influence them, either you or Mr. Pusic, when it came

 7    to your negotiations.

 8       A.   Please could you more precise?  What exactly do you have in mind

 9    when you ask me that?

10       Q.   Let me try and do that.  When it comes to negotiations, this would

11    be preceded by political negotiations at a high political level or a

12    military level.  Mr. Masovic and Mr. Pusic were there to implement things

13    that had been agreed on prior to your negotiations.  Wouldn't that be

14    correct?  You mentioned the occasion when Mr. Silajdzic came to Konjic and

15    Jablanica.  Mr. Komsic, a member of the Presidency, said it was a high --

16    a delegation at a very high level.

17       A.   Let us say that there were two periods, the period leading up to

18    the Washington Agreement, i.e., the period leading up to the political

19    negotiations which would result in the Washington Agreement.  During that

20    period of time, the commissions for exchanges worked in keeping with their

21    mandates without any political influences or interference.  Once the

22    bilateral decision was reached on the matters between the army and the HVO

23    to be normalised, from then on all negotiations, including the

24    negotiations on POWs would take place at a political level, which was the

25    highest political level, which included the president of

Page 25122

 1    Bosnia-Herzegovina, i.e., the head of the Presidency of Bosnia and

 2    Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic, the president of the Republic of Croatia,

 3    Mr. Tudjman, and later on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Silajdzic

 4    and Granic respectively, and Mr. Pusic and myself were only duty bound

 5    with the assistance of the International Committee of the Red Cross and

 6    other international organisations that were involved in the program of

 7    missing persons to carry out the political agreements and implement them.

 8       Q.   This is what I was saying.  If the Washington Agreement was signed

 9    and it was and we all know who signed it, neither Mr. Masovic nor

10    Mr. Pusic could have any say in the implementation of this agreement.  It

11    would have been carried out with or without you.  Isn't that correct?

12       A.   One thing is certain.  In order to implement the Washington

13    Sporzum with respect to the missing persons and prisoners of war, it would

14    have been carried out with or without -- without the two of us.  The two

15    of us could have a say in the speed with which that agreement was carried

16    out, and we did have influence on that.  When it comes to Mr. Pusic, I

17    must say that this influence was negative, unfortunately.  In the

18    implementation of the agreement, some things were -- were taking a lot of

19    time, much too longer than necessary when this came to the liberation of

20    prisoners.  This took place only two months after the signing of the

21    Washington Agreement.  The last prisoners were released in the second half

22    of April, i.e., one number of prisoners were kept even after that.  There

23    were even some new arrests even after the Washington Agreement was signed.

24    Some prisoners, i.e., some detainees, since there were no more fighting

25    between the HVO and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, some people were

Page 25123

 1    arrested when they were trying to do some shopping in Kiseljak, and then

 2    after the Washington Agreement, they were also subject of our

 3    negotiations.

 4            I must say that at one point in time, and that was on the 12th of

 5    April or maybe the 13th of April, 1994, because of the problems of

 6    missing, i.e., because of the problems of prisoners, the Washington

 7    Agreement was at a stake at that time, namely Mr. Pusic refused to release

 8    all prisoners as had been agreed as per Washington Agreement, and at that

 9    moment the President of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Tudjman, sent to

10    Medjugorje his representative for humanitarian issues, Mr. Slobodan Lang,

11    who had a mission to humour Mr. Pusic and make him agree to the final

12    release of all prisoners.

13            I witnessed of some very hard talks between Mr. Lang and

14    Mr. Pusic.  At that point Mr. Lang was even speaking about a possible

15    removal from Mr. Pusic -- of Mr. Pusic from the position because of his

16    refusal to implement the agreement and release all the prisoners.  At that

17    point, I proposed a compromise, which was later on translated into a

18    written agreement between the two of us, and finally that agreement was

19    implemented.

20       Q.   In any case that part of the Washington Agreement was implemented?

21       A.   Yes, with minor delays, but if you look at that situation from the

22    perspective of a person who had spent months in camps and in prison, then

23    the delay would be rather long.

24            In Heliodrom, for example, in the Heliodrom camp, the detainees

25    put up a strike about the time when Mr. Lang arrived.  I know that

Page 25124

 1    Mr. Lang visited the prisoners.  They were on a hunger strike, and he

 2    tried to persuade them to call off the hunger strike, because some sort of

 3    agreement on their release would eventually be achieved.  He even said

 4    that if the detainees continued with their hunger strike that the HVO had

 5    a possibility to start force-feeding them in keeping with the provisions

 6    on, I think, the Tokyo declaration.  I believe that the Tokyo declaration

 7    came into play, and according to that declaration from the moment when the

 8    detainees could no longer think rationally and when their health is at

 9    stake those who kept them detained had every right to start force-feeding

10    them by giving them infusions and this could be done against their own

11    will.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.  Microphone

13    for the counsel.

14            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Mr. Lang did come to Mostar but not because of Mr. Pusic, but

16    because Mr. Tudjman was one of the signatories of the agreement together

17    with Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Silajdzic, and Mr. Granic.  And I'm putting it

18    to you that Mr. Tudjman probably had never heard of Mr. Pusic, but let's

19    leave that aside for the time being.

20            Can we now look at another document, which is P 7851.

21            This is a report by Mr. Pusic.  Did you find it, Mr. Masovic?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Your name is mentioned in here.  This is a report on a meeting

24    that took place on the 12th of January, 1994, and you can see a short

25    report about the negotiations, and it says that within the shortest

Page 25125

 1    possible time all the prisoners should be released according to the

 2    all-for-all principle.

 3       A.   Before I give you an answer, it says here 12th of January, and you

 4    said 12th February, which is correct.  12th February is correct.  The

 5    document bears a very strange date, as if it had been drafted on the 12th

 6    of January, 1994, a month prior to the negotiations.  I suppose this is a

 7    typo in the document.  I can confirm that the meeting took place on the

 8    12th of February, 1994, and the participants were Mr. Pusic and myself,

 9    and this took place on the premises of the Spanish Battalion in

10    Medjugorje.  And I can also confirm that what it says here in the report

11    reflects the totality of the essence of what we had agreed, with the

12    exception of the last paragraph in which Mr. Pusic, in his report, says

13    that we would meet again in Jablanica on the 17th of February, 1994, where

14    we were to continue negotiations with respect to Bugojno and other

15    detention facilities.

16            I can only assume why Mr. Pusic added that last paragraph.  I

17    suppose this had to do with the possible pressure on the part of the

18    Croatian families in Bugojno because of the answer to the destiny of the

19    21 prisoners who had been arrested in Bugojno.  In other words, the last

20    paragraph was never discussed on the 12th of February, and this is not

21    what we agreed, and this is not what is indicated in the official

22    statement that was signed by myself and Mr. Pusic after the meeting and

23    sent as a statement for the media.

24       Q.   Can we then look at this public statement, which is 6D 00499.

25       A.   What did you say?

Page 25126

 1       Q.   6D 00499.

 2       A.   I can confirm that this is the draft.  The handwriting is mine.

 3    This is the public statement which I drafted.  And if you read --

 4       Q.   So you have agreed?

 5       A.   You will see that there's no mention of Bugojno as part of our

 6    agreement, just as I have explained answering your previous question.

 7            As for the rest, the report of Mr. Pusic about the negotiations

 8    corresponds to my statement.

 9       Q.   Let's just make a distinction.  Mr. Pusic's report is what he

10    drafted, and this here is your joint statement, and here we also have an

11    indication that in the shortest possible time -- possible time everybody

12    will be released -- released according to the all-for-all principle.

13       A.   Yes.  The first paragraphs in Mr. Pusic's report are the

14    reflection of what had been agreed.  The thing that is not correct and

15    does not reflect what we had agreed is that we agreed to meet on the 17th

16    of February to discuss the issue of Bugojno and other prisons, and that's

17    why I have not included that into my statement for the media.

18       Q.   Can we look at the following document which is P 7861.  This is an

19    UNPROFOR report, the civilian affairs of the UNPROFOR report.

20       A.   I have it.

21       Q.   It is page 5 in the translation.  You can look at page 6.  And the

22    title is "Negotiations about the release of prisoners of war."  It will be

23    the penultimate page in the B/C/S translation.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whilst he's looking,

25    Mr. Ibrisimovic, you've already used up one hour and five minutes.  So you

Page 25127

 1    are five minutes past your time.  Are there other Defence teams that gave

 2    away some of their time to you?

 3            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Petkovic's Defence

 4    has ceded its time to me, but I will complete my examination within half

 5    an hour.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document before me.  My

 7    name -- or, rather, my surname has been written wrongly on the document,

 8    but quite obviously it does refer to the meeting that we talked about on

 9    the 12th of February, 1994.

10            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   And you agreed for an all-for-all exchange and that the ICRC would

12    be involved.

13       A.   That's right.

14       Q.   Now take a look at the next document.  P 8093 is the number.  It

15    is the report by the monitoring mission of the European Community, and you

16    can take a look at page 4.  And the title of the section is "Humanitarian

17    issues."  The document is dated the 19th of March, 1994.

18       A.   That's right.

19       Q.   Your name is mentioned as well as Mr. Pusic's name, and the

20    observers or monitors note that everything is going well, that what was

21    agreed is being implemented; right?

22       A.   We have here, if I can put it, a jump.  What Mr. Pusic and I

23    agreed on the 12th of February, 1994, in Medjugorje was in part

24    implemented on the 1st of March, 2004.  So on that day, the BH army

25    released 61 members of the Croatian Defence Council, and the Croatian

Page 25128

 1    Defence Council, for its part, released 121 prisoners from Heliodrom.  And

 2    I think that mostly they were Bosniaks from the village of Sovici.  I

 3    think it belongs to Jablanica municipality, that village.  So that was how

 4    the agreement was put into effect, the agreement of the 12th of February,

 5    2004.

 6            Now, what is mentioned in this document here, which I have before

 7    me, is in fact the implementation of another agreement between Mr. Pusic

 8    and myself, which was reached in Gornji Vakuf in 19 -- on the 17th of

 9    March, 2004.  And pursuant to that agreement, we took it upon ourselves to

10    release a certain number of prisoners from both sides.  And the agreement,

11    to the best of my recollections, was implemented fully.

12       Q.   That's the agreement you discussed with my learned friend

13    yesterday.  That's why I didn't mention it.  But it was P 08084, the 17th

14    of March agreement, just for the record.

15       A.   Yes.  According to that agreement, the HVO freed about 19 -- well,

16    around the 19th and 20th or 22nd of March about 750 prisoners from

17    Heliodrom and the military remand prison at Ljubuski.  The BH army freed

18    that group of 73 members of the HVO and HV from Mostar, and it also freed

19    294 members of the Croatian Defence Council from Bugojno.  And on the 22nd

20    of March, it freed six members of the Croatian Defence Council from

21    Gornji Vakuf.

22       Q.   You just mentioned this group of 121 persons who were released

23    pursuant to this agreement.  Now, would you look at document P 7985 now,

24    please.  Have you found the document?

25       A.   Yes, I have.

Page 25129

 1       Q.   Do you see here that the military prosecutor's office of Mostar is

 2    writing to the service for the exchange of captured and other persons,

 3    that is to say to Mr. Pusic, the military prosecutor Mladen Jurisic.  I

 4    believe you know Mr. Jurisic, do you not?  He was the president of the

 5    court in Mostar.

 6       A.   Yes, yes.  I know Mr. Jurisic.

 7       Q.   He says, and he's referring to Mr. Pusic's letter, that the

 8    military prosecutor's office approves the agreed-upon exchange of

 9    prisoners.

10       A.   I have two comments to make regarding this document.  The first is

11    this:  Allegedly these people were suspects.  They were suspected of

12    having belonged to the enemy army.  And so this -- they were suspect

13    pursuant to Article 119, para 1.

14       Q.   I know what you want to say, but let me stop you.  My question was

15    different.  This is the procedure that Mr. Pusic had to respect, that is

16    to say the -- when the military prosecutor gives a green light for people

17    to be exchanged he would have to act upon it, regardless of whether legal

18    proceedings are were being conducted or not.  That was my question.  So is

19    that what follows from this document?  Is that what this document shows?

20       A.   The military prosecutor, Mr. Jurisic, did not have the legal

21    authority, authority under the law, to release for and send for exchange

22    any individual who was being militarily -- who was being legally

23    prosecuted.  There was no law to state he could, either in the laws of

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the laws enacted by the then-Croatian Republic of

25    Herceg-Bosna.  Nowhere does it say -- is there a provision whereby a

Page 25130

 1    military prosecutor can pardon or amnesty somebody against whom legal

 2    proceedings have been taken.  He could not prosecute them and place the

 3    prisoners at the disposal of Mr. Pusic or the service for exchange.

 4       Q.   Let us leave that to others whether regulations existed or not,

 5    provisions and laws existed or not, but Mr. Pusic had to respect what the

 6    military prosecutor told him to do.  That was the procedure, was it not?

 7       A.   I really can't agree with you on that point.  Mr. Pusic did not

 8    have to seek this approval.  He should have sought approval from the organ

 9    in charge of pardoning these prisoners, abolishing their sentence, and

10    then to free them through the exchange process, not to release them for an

11    exchange process, whereas, as it says here, the military prosecutor's

12    office is legally prosecuting them.  So that would mean that you're going

13    to be released, but the lawsuit against you is still in force.

14            You won't find anything like that in any of the laws of

15    Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16       Q.   That was the position of the military prosecutor's office, but

17    Mr. Pusic couldn't influence that in any way.  But anyway, we're talking

18    about not the exchange of 121 persons.  That was implemented fully as you

19    had agreed; right?

20       A.   That's right.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's quarter to

22    4.00.  Let's break for 20 minutes.

23                          --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, according to

Page 25131

 1    our calculations, you have 11 minutes remaining.

 2            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3       Q.   I'd like Mr. Masovic now to take a look at just a couple of more

 4    documents.  One of them is 6D 00580.

 5            Have you found the document?

 6       A.   Yes, I have.

 7       Q.   It is a document coming from the cabinet of the offices of the

 8    President of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

 9    Selim Novalic personally.  You know him, do you?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   It says here the president considers that the exchange should take

12    place on the principle of one for one, that is say that the same number of

13    Bosnian prisoners as members of the HVO should be released.  And now we

14    have here that the BH army or, rather, the government and the Presidency

15    are insisting on the principle of one or one and not all for all.

16       A.   On this document I cannot confirm the authenticity of it.  It's

17    not logical, as far as I can see, in the sense that they are jumping over

18    me as the head of the commission, and somebody subordinate to me is

19    discussing this directly with the cabinet and the Presidency.  And in any

20    case, this isn't Mr. Izetbegovic's signature.  I don't see on the document

21    any number, protocol number, reference number, anything like that.

22            However -- well, this is the first time that I see this document.

23       Q.   It wasn't the president who signed it.  It says the cabinet of the

24    president.  I think that this is the signature of Alija Selimovic, Chef de

25    Cabinet, but we obtained this document from the Prosecution.  So the

Page 25132

 1    authenticity of the document cannot be challenged.

 2       A.   Well, I'm not going to go into that.  I'm not authorised to do so,

 3    to test the authenticity of the document or whatever.  All I can notice is

 4    that there's no protocol number and that it is not Mr. Izetbegovic's

 5    signature there, because I know his signature, because during the war and

 6    after the war, through the various documents on pardons signed by him I

 7    was able to see his signature and recognise the documents.  But if it is

 8    indeed an authentic document and if it is an offer for the exchange of 227

 9    HVO members for 39 members of the BH army and a 10-member Tuzla

10    delegation, then what I can tell you is that this exchange was implemented

11    in a quite a different way.

12       Q.   Yes, I believe you but what I'm saying is that's what the

13    principle was at that point in time and if you look on the left-hand side

14    you can see that this was sent by Paket link, Paket communication.  If you

15    can recognise that on the original document at 1525 hours on the 26th of

16    September, 1993.  That's when it was sent.

17       A.   Well, I state that that wasn't the principle at any time, that

18    time or any other time, and this was borne out by practice later on

19    including what happened in this specific case.  And in this specific case

20    what happened was the following:  The Croatian Defence Council freed 500

21    prisoners from Gabela camp.  It also released 39 members of the BH army

22    from Konjic, and it freed not a ten-member but a nine-member Tuzla

23    delegation, that is to say, a delegation of civilians travelling to Split

24    on a humanitarian aid mission.  And in that delegation there was the

25    mufti, Husein Efendi Kavazovic that I referred to yesterday, and in

Page 25133

 1    addition to him in the delegation there was also Mr. Alija Muminovic,

 2    later on the ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina to Jordan.

 3            And on our side, the BH army side on this occasion, it wasn't 227

 4    members of the Croatian Defence Council who were released but 309 HVO

 5    members were released from the prison in Konjic.  And on the side of the

 6    HVO at the same time, a Frenchman was freed.  I am not sure what his

 7    status was, whether he was a journalist or a humanitarian aid worker or

 8    something else, but I do know that he was incorporated in this exchange

 9    agreement and that on our side we asked that that man be freed too.

10       Q.   We can look at the next document, 6D 00762.  6D 00762.  It is a

11    document of the Supreme Command Staff of the armed forces, dated the 25th

12    of August, 1993.  And the commander -- for the commander Stjepan Siber,

13    and he says in point 1 exchange prisoners of war in the following manner

14    and procedure, namely exchange one for one.  150 for 150 persons.  Oh, in

15    the ratio of 1:1.  And the Tuzla delegation is mentioned there as well.

16       A.   That's right.

17       Q.   Here, too, we see that at that point in time the leaders of the

18    army advocated the one-for-one principle.

19       A.   This document -- or, rather, the second document shows that this

20    is the same exchange.  The Tuzla delegation that was never carried out.

21       Q.   You've already spoken about that.  I just wanted to point to

22    bullet point 1, and you have explained that.

23            Yesterday you were shown the alleged interview with Mr. Pusic in

24    "Slobodna Dalmacija".  Just for the record, this is P 90 -- P 949.  I

25    have my reservations about any sort of interview and Mr. Pusic told me

Page 25134

 1    that he does not remember either the journalist or the interview, and I

 2    know that you have had some negative experiences with the press.  A lot

 3    has been written about you as well.  And some wrong information was

 4    published that did not reflect your position.  Am I right?

 5       A.   If you give me some examples, I can --

 6       Q.   Somebody called Mitrovic said that -- or wrote that you know what

 7    happened at Ozren, and a pamphlet was also published in which your name

 8    was mentioned, and I also read some of your statements here at the

 9    Tribunal for which, I believe, they are distorted.  What I'm saying is

10    that sometimes the press does not really carry the opinion that people

11    uphold.

12       A.   I'm not sure what you're talking about.  These were not my

13    statements.  Those were the statements by other people.  As far as I know,

14    I don't have that kind of experience.  At least I can't remember any at

15    this moment.  I cannot remember anybody distorting my information in the

16    media.  Maybe some statements were curtailed because the media never give

17    you enough space.  I have so much to say and I'm never given enough space.

18    But I don't remember anybody misinterpreting a statement of mine.  I

19    really do not have any influence on what other people say about me.

20       Q.   I read you.  Of course you mentioned in your statement that

21    Mr. Ivica Zelic that you knew about the whereabouts of the victims or

22    remains that went missing from Ozren; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes, that's correct.

24       Q.   But you refuted that?

25       A.   I don't know if I did or not but I suppose I did.

Page 25135

 1       Q.   I talked with Mr. Pusic about Vranica not only about Vranica but

 2    also about Bugojno, and Mr. Pusic told me that the same person,

 3    Ivica Zelic, i.e., some other people, said that you knew what happened to

 4    the people in Bugojno and Mr. Pusic said that this was speculation because

 5    you certainly don't know what happened to these people.  And this is a

 6    pure speculation, and you know nothing about that, and that if you did

 7    know then that information would be available to everybody.

 8       A.   As a matter of fact, I have known for quite a while what happened

 9    to these people.  After having been taken out from the prison, those

10    people were obviously liquidated.  If they hadn't, I'm sure that one of

11    them at least would rejoin their families within the 14 years.  What I

12    know [as interpreted] until this very moment is where their mortal remains

13    were buried, and this is one part of my mandate within the federal

14    commission for missing persons and within the institute for missing

15    persons.  I also don't know the whereabouts of the 13.000 other people

16    that went missing during the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17       Q.   This is exactly what I meant when I said that Mr. Pusic said that

18    this is speculation that you know where these people who have probably

19    been killed?

20            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, counsel, and witness, I just want to

21    make sure the transcript is correct, or correctly reflects the witness's

22    answer in respect of his knowledge of the Bugojno group because what we're

23    seeing in English at line 9 is what he says is "what I know" -- "what I

24    know, until this very moment is where their mortal remains were buried,"

25    and I -- it was my understanding based on the witness's testimony

Page 25136

 1    yesterday that perhaps he means to say something else, but I just want to

 2    make sure the record clearly reflects his knowledge on that point.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  That's not what I said.  I

 4    said that I am aware of their destiny, and I also said that what I don't

 5    know is where they were buried.  That's what I don't know.  Although, this

 6    is part of my mandate to learn, amongst other things, where their mortal

 7    remains, the mortal remains of the 21 prisoners were buried.  We can say

 8    with a high degree of certainty that they were killed.  If they hadn't

 9    been killed, they would turn up.

10            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   This is something that I wanted to hear from you.  Mr. Pusic told

12    me that it would be a spear speculation to tell -- to say that you know

13    where these people are buried.  And somebody else said that, and said that

14    to him, and he claims that this is simply not the truth.  You don't know,

15    do you?

16       A.   If I knew where they were buried, you would not have to ask me

17    that, because as soon as I learnt I would have undertaken the steps that

18    are within my purview.  I would have undertaken exhumation through the

19    prosecutor's office.

20       Q.   What I'm saying is that you don't know, that this is pure

21    speculation.

22       A.   This is exactly what I'm saying in confirmation.

23       Q.   Thank you very much.  I also believe that stories like that are

24    pure speculation.  You don't know, and I have no further questions, and I

25    would like to thank you for your patience.

Page 25137

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel, please.  For 30

 2    minutes.  You have 30 minutes.

 3            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and

 4    good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 5                          Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Masovic.

 7            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Before I begin my cross-examination I

 8    would like to inform the Trial Chamber that I have one hour at my

 9    disposal, 30 minutes that we have anyway, and 30 minutes that we were

10    given by the Prlic Defence.  And I'll try and complete my

11    cross-examination even before the time allocated to me.

12       Q.   Mr. Masovic, in your testimony you have spoken about the position

13    of the government in Sarajevo and that was said yesterday that people can

14    be exchanged only if they are considered prisoners of war or civilians

15    against whom legal proceedings were conducted for crimes in relation to

16    the armed conflict; is that correct?

17       A.   That is correct, but I would like to -- that against whom

18    proceedings are conducted or are still underway, because the exchange also

19    comprised those for whom the conviction had not been passed.

20       Q.   I'll try and make the appropriate breaks before I'm warned to help

21    the interpreters and to have everything recorded.

22            So according to you the policies of the government in Sarajevo was

23    not to evacuate the civilians from the territory under the control of the

24    HVO.  The evacuation of Bosnian civilians, that is, from the territory

25    under the control of the HVO, or the evacuation of Croats to other

Page 25138

 1    territories from the territories where they were residing at that moment.

 2       A.   That's correct.  The policy in place was not to evacuate the

 3    civilians.  Yesterday I started talking about that, but I did not complete

 4    my testimony.  I said that the High Commissioner for Refugees at certain

 5    moments put a lot of pressure on the government in Sarajevo to allow the

 6    evacuation of certain groups of civilians which in the view of the UNHCR

 7    were under particular threat.  I personally spoke to some members of the

 8    Presidency about that problem because a moral dilemma arose with that

 9    respect whether to include such civilians into some sort of exchanges that

10    the Serb side insisted on and later on Mr. Pusic joined them.  If we are

11    done that, we would have gotten involved in the process of ethnic

12    cleansing that the government in Sarajevo was against throughout all this

13    time.  I'm talking about the policies, but I may be able to anticipate

14    your next question, and I can tell you that it did happen that the

15    government or the local authorities did get involved in this type of

16    evacuation of civilians, but mostly those civilians that were threatened,

17    whose life or health were endangered in some centres or whatever you want

18    to call them.

19       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I have only one hour, and sometimes I will have to

20    stop your answers, because I just don't have the time for any longer

21    elaborations.  I remember you having said that yesterday, and that

22    information is very precious to us when you say that they participated in

23    UNHCR, that is.

24            Yesterday you spoke about the exchange in November that you

25    assisted in Konjic during which 550 Bosniaks were exchanged and the Tuzla

Page 25139

 1    mufti Kavazovic was in that group.  That was in November, in early

 2    November 1993 or thereabouts; would you agree?

 3       A.   The exchange took place on the 19th of October, 1993.  Five

 4    hundred prisoners from Gabela --

 5       Q.   You've already told us that.  No need to go over that again.

 6            Do you know, tell us, where had that group been?  I'm talking

 7    about the group of civilians, Bosniaks.  Where had they been kept

 8    physically?

 9       A.   They had been detained in a house.  I was in that location on that

10    day, on the 19th of October, together with Mr. Silajdzic.  The name of the

11    place was either Turija or Zabrdje.  Those were two places where prisoners

12    were kept.  There was a house there where they were kept, and on that day

13    I even talked to some of them, because a number of them had been taken

14    from the prison and handed over to the Serb side.  One of them actually

15    never reappeared alive.

16       Q.   Now you have provided me with the information that I was

17    interested in, and that is that on the 19th of October, on that visit

18    Mr. Silajdzic was with you.

19       A.   In addition to Mr. Silajdzic, there was also Mr. Komsic,

20    Father Andjelovic and in the prison, i.e., at the place of the exchange,

21    there was Mr. Silajdzic, myself, Mr. Silajdzic's bodyguard and Mr. Selim

22    Novalic.

23       Q.   Sir, do you know that when we're talking about this exchange

24    Mr. Silajdzic had proposed to the HVO unit in Turija to evacuate from the

25    area the HVO and Croatian civilians in exchange of money?

Page 25140

 1       A.   I don't know anything about anything like that.

 2       Q.   Can you please look in my binder, the first document in my binder,

 3    and the number is P 06555.  I apologise, I thought that everybody had the

 4    documents already.

 5            The document is P 06555.  It's the first in the binder.  Tell me

 6    when you've got it?

 7       A.   Yes, I do.

 8       Q.   Now can now look at it together look at the signatory of this

 9    document.  That's Mladen Zovko, also known as Kuhar.  Did you ever have

10    contact with him?

11       A.   Yes, I did.  This is the man who was our counterpart in Konjic

12    with whom we discussed the exchange that was implemented on the 19th.

13       Q.   In the first sentence of this document by the Herceg Stjepan

14    Turija Independent Battalion it says that during talks with Haris

15    Silajdzic for whom you confirmed that he was in Turija on that day, that

16    there was -- there were talks with him regarding the exchange of prisoners

17    of war.  In addition to the Independent Battalion, the meeting was

18    attended by Jerko Petrovic, and in addition to Silajdzic on the Muslim

19    side there was also Salko Music, the commander of the 6th Corps, and a

20    member of the Supreme Commander Bosiocic, also known as Zagi.

21            The second paragraph is very significant.

22            "In addition to the talks about the exchange, the aforementioned

23    individuals offered us to surrender our positions to them and in exchange

24    they would enable the evacuation of soldiers and civilians from our free

25    territories across their territory."

Page 25141

 1            It says further on:  "During the talks Haris Silajdzic undertook

 2    to personally provide guarantees regarding possible -- a possible

 3    operation."

 4            The document continues by saying that on the 3rd of November,

 5    1993, the signatory of this document, Mr. Mladen Zovko had a conversation

 6    with Fahrudin Fazlic, also known as Braco, who informed him that he had

 7    been authorised by Silajdzic to continue negotiations and he goes on to

 8    say, "On that occasion he offered to buy from us 70 per cent of small

 9    arms, all the heavy weapons and food that has remained and they were

10    prepared to pay for that 500.000 German marks."

11            The document goes on to say and I would like to emphasise a detail

12    in this document that:  "On the 5th of November I met with Fazlic again

13    and on that occasion I was informed that as a guarantee we should be

14    escorted by the commander of the 6th Corps and Haris Silajdzic."

15            This letter was sent by this commander to Mostar to Mr. Stojic,

16    Mr. Petkovic, Lucic, and asks them what to do with regard to the offer

17    that he has received.  Do you know anything about that?  It transpires

18    clearly from this document that in exchange for the evacuation of the HVO

19    and civilians from the territory money has been offered and that the

20    political leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina is involved in that.  Are

21    you familiar with this development?  Do you know anything about this?

22       A.   No, absolutely not.  As you can see, my name is not mentioned

23    here.  I was not present in any such thing.  I was with Mr. Silajdzic

24    throughout the exchange.  I told you that we were together in Konjic on

25    the premises of the 6th Corps.  Mr. Zovko came there as well.  Later on I

Page 25142

 1    was in the same APC with Mr. Silajdzic as we went for the exchange, and we

 2    returned together to Sarajevo.  I -- I don't know whether I'm authorised

 3    to comment upon a document of this kind that I don't know anything about

 4    that.  Even if there had been such a conversation, I did not attend it.

 5    But it doesn't make sense.  The HVO was in a more powerful position, and

 6    the BiH army was not in a position to offer them anything in this case.

 7       Q.   Sir, do you know what was the position of that part of the HVO in

 8    Turija?  Do you know what was their position at that time, and do you know

 9    why the Tuzla delegation had been captured in the first place?  Do you

10    know that they were encircled at the time, that on the one hand they had

11    been expelled from Konjic, that the BH army was on one side, and on the

12    other side there was the Serb army, and that in that so-called Konjic

13    pocket that has been discussed on so many occasions in this -- in this

14    courtroom that they were encircled and that out of sheer desperation that

15    they had captured the delegation in order to draw some attention to

16    themselves?  Are you aware of that?

17       A.   No, I'm not aware of that.   I know that there was certain

18    co-operation and I've already spoken about that.  I started talking about

19    that because the captives that the HVO had captured who were members of

20    the BiH army had been handed over to the Serb side for investigation and

21    interviews.

22       Q.   Very well, then.

23       A.   And one of them was killed.  His name was Rasim Makan.

24       Q.   And a large number of HVO members were also killed in that area,

25    too, but I was just asking you about this document.  You said you don't

Page 25143

 1    know anything about it, that you can't comment on it, and that you weren't

 2    present.

 3            Now, my colleague asked you about the relationship of the

 4    political leaders towards the exchanges, and he showed you a moment ago

 5    two documents, and for the transcript they were 6D 00580, and 6D 00762.

 6            Now, from these two documents we saw the position of the

 7    Presidency, or cabinet, President's cabinet, the president of the BH

 8    republic, of course, and the top army leaders including Mr. Siber.  Linked

 9    to this exchange they suggest an exchange on the one-to-one principle.

10            I know, Mr. Masovic, that you said that that exchange did not take

11    place in that way but I'm going to show you a document now and the number

12    of that document is 2D 00590 and it is the last document in my binder but

13    unfortunately actually it's not in my binder.  It's an additional document

14    attached to the binder.  We have on it e-court luckily.  Just tell me when

15    you've found it, please.

16       A.   I have found it.

17       Q.   We can see here this is a document from the Republic of

18    Bosnia-Herzegovina, Konjic municipality.  It is a decision dated the 1st

19    of October, 1993, and I'm just going to remind you that in the document

20    that was shown to you by my colleague Mr. Ibrisimovic a moment ago, and it

21    is the letter from the cabinet of the president, it says that the letter

22    was sent by Paket communication to Konjic and here it says the

23    War Presidency of Konjic municipality at a meeting held on the 1st of

24    October, 1993, is issuing the following decision, and it is signed by

25    Mr. Cibo.  Does the name ring a bell?  Is it familiar?  Mr. Safet Cibo.

Page 25144

 1       A.   Yes.  I know that Mr. Cibo was for a time the president of the

 2    wartime Presidency of Konjic municipality, Jablanica, too, and I think

 3    Prozor.  Three municipalities, I think.

 4       Q.   All right.  Fine.  It was a conjoining of municipalities just for

 5    wartime conditions outside constitutional principles, and he was the

 6    president of those three municipalities; right?  Can we put it that way?

 7       A.   Well, I don't know the reasons why these municipalities were

 8    joined up and why he was appointed.

 9       Q.   All right.  But pursuant to the constitution, you and I are both

10    lawyers and we know that, that according to the BH constitution they --

11    there was no community of municipalities.  It's just that Mr. Cibo was

12    given authority to be the president of those three municipalities at that

13    time.

14       A.   Pursuant to the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Cibo

15    wasn't elected as president of the wartime presidency at all, just as no

16    president of the wartime presidency under war conditions was elected

17    pursuant to the constitution, because given the war circumstances, it was

18    necessary to replace the presidents of municipalities who might have fled

19    the country or crossed over to the other side.

20       Q.   Mr. Masovic, under the constitution of the Republic of

21    Bosnia-Herzegovina, the municipalities of Konjic, Jablanica, and Prozor

22    did not represent any community of municipalities, did they?  Just say if

23    you know, if you don't know.

24       A.   Well, I'm not sure that municipalities are referred to in the

25    constitution, that they are a subject matter that the constitution refers

Page 25145

 1    to directly.

 2       Q.   All right.  Let's move on.  This was signed by Mr. Cibo, and this

 3    is -- refers to the exchange that we discussed a moment ago, which means

 4    the October exchange, and you say on the 19th of October, now take a look

 5    once again towards bottom Mr. Cibo is making a proposal that the exchange

 6    should take place one for one or in the ratio of one to one and this

 7    document was sent to the state commission and a letter seems to have been

 8    sent to Mr. Silajdzic as well.  For the transcript I have to say that we

 9    don't have that letter now.  Do you remember receiving this document from

10    Mr. Cibo, the state commission?  It was sent to the BH state commission

11    for exchange.

12       A.   I assume that's right.  If it was said that it was sent to the

13    state commission, then it probably was sent to Sarajevo too.  That's what

14    I assume.

15       Q.   Can we conclude then, Mr. Masovic, that it was the decision taken

16    by the top political -- at the top political level down to the

17    municipalities was that the exchange should be in the one-to-one ratio,

18    although you say that that's not what happened.  Is that what we can

19    conclude?

20       A.   I was the person who was authorised to negotiate the exchange.

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, counsel, please.  Microphone for

22    counsel.

23            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   I highly respect your broad answers and your eloquence.  The

25    Prosecutor's going to help me with the microphone.  I don't know what's

Page 25146

 1    happening to the microphone today it seems to be switching itself off on

 2    its own.  Now from the two documents you were shown by my colleague

 3    Mr. Ibrisimovic and one that I've just shown you, one that you probably

 4    received as you yourself say, that quite obviously at that time the top

 5    leaders in the army and the political leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 6    with respect to this exchange had the following position:  That the

 7    exchange should take place in a one-to-one ratio and that later on you did

 8    not do that but the exchange took place as you explained it.  That's all

 9    I'm asking you?

10       A.   I don't know who you consider being the political, army, and

11    municipal leadership, because I consider --

12       Q.   Now, in this courtroom, as in any other courtroom for that matter,

13    it is customary for me to ask questions, and I am saying that I consider

14    the cabinet of the president of the presidency to be that and that it is

15    Mr. Siber who was a member of the Supreme Command of the BH army, and I

16    also consider that Mr. Cibo, the president of the three -- or, rather, the

17    wartime presidency of the three municipalities, the political and army

18    leadership when it comes to this exchange.  Do we agree on that?

19       A.   No, we don't.  No, we don't.

20       Q.   All right.  Let's leave that, Mr. Masovic, then.  Quite obviously

21    from the -- the documents speak for themselves and the Trial Chamber will

22    be able to judge often the basis of the documents but you also said that

23    the BH army arrested civilians who did not belong to the category of POWs

24    and persons against whom criminal proceedings had been initiated but it

25    was only individual incidents.  Am I right?  Did I understand you

Page 25147

 1    correctly?

 2       A.   Yes that's right.

 3       Q.   Now, do we agree that an incident would be the following:  For

 4    example, the arrest of a small number of civilians which were not among

 5    these other categories, didn't belong to any one of these other

 6    categories?

 7       A.   What do you mean by a lesser number of civilians, a small number

 8    of civilians?

 9       Q.   Well, you tell me what you think an incident means.  If a hundred

10    people are arrested, a hundred civilians, outside these categories, or if

11    ten civilians were captured outside these categories.

12       A.   Well, I don't know that there were mass arrests which would

13    incorporate dozens or hundreds of civilians.  There were individual cases.

14    One civilian, two civilians were deprived of their liberty outside legal

15    provisions.  That's the thing I do know about.

16       Q.   All right.  Now, do you know that the BH army arrested women and

17    children, for example?  In large numbers.  Let's say more than ten.

18       A.   No.  I have no knowledge about that, except if they happened to

19    have been women who were legally being prosecuted for some reason.

20       Q.   All right.  Now, how many women in the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21    in Sarajevo, in the cantonal court in Sarajevo, if you can remember, were

22    exchanged?  How many women were exchanged?  I worked there, and I took

23    part in that process.  So how many women -- a total of how many women in

24    Sarajevo were legally prosecuted for crimes linked to the war events?  Can

25    you remember how many women?

Page 25148

 1       A.   Well, I can't know about that, because I just dealt with one part

 2    of the persons who were captured, those who went for an exchange.  Of

 3    course there were a larger number of persons who had been arrested who had

 4    nothing to do with the exchange process.  So I can talk about that,

 5    although I don't know the figures, how many people were involved in the

 6    exchange process, who had been previously arrested and deprived of their

 7    liberty.

 8       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I'm interested in women and children now.  Do you

 9    know that the BH army arrested civilians precisely to have them exchanged,

10    and they weren't within one of those two categories that we were talking

11    about?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Do you know that the BH army, on the 27th and 28th of July, 1993,

14    attacked the village of Doljani near Jablanica, and on that occasion they

15    killed and massacred at least 43 Croats, amongst them civilians, women,

16    children, and members of the HVO?

17       A.   No, I don't know about that.

18       Q.   You never heard of that happening?

19       A.   No, because it wasn't within my remit, within my mandate.  Let me

20    repeat again.  I don't know the purpose of you enumerating crimes which

21    probably took place but which do not come under my terms of reference.  So

22    I can't talk about things that didn't have to do with the exchange of

23    prisoners or killed persons.

24       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I'm talking about the exchange of dead bodies, too,

25    and you took part in that.  And the purpose, I'll tell you what the

Page 25149

 1    purpose is.  In the examination-in-chief, you claimed -- this isn't tu

 2    quoque, this is just an illustration that I want to show that what you

 3    said during the examination in chief as to how the BH army behaved was not

 4    quite true, and I'm going to show you that on the basis of documents.

 5            Now, when we come to Doljani and mentioning Doljani, take a look

 6    at the following document 2D 004 -- no, 588 is the document I'd like you

 7    to look at.  It is the fourth document in my binder, one signed by a

 8    Mr. Rasim Delic.  So once you've found it, please tell me.  Take a look at

 9    it and tell me.  And it's also on e-court.

10       A.   I have found it.

11       Q.   You say you know nothing about that, but never mind.  I'm going to

12    tell you that this is a letter written by Mr. Delic, the 6th Corps

13    commander, who says that the President of the Presidency,

14    Alija Izetbegovic, received a letter from Tadeusz Mazowiecki, Special

15    Rapporteur from the former Yugoslavia, claiming that in Prozor there was a

16    massacre of at least 35 Bosnian Croats and that between the 27th and 29th

17    of July, 1993, in the village of Doljani, near Jablanica, 22 Bosnian

18    Croats were massacred.

19            Now, here the commander of the armed forces of the BH army, the

20    top military commander, two or three months after this massacre in Doljani

21    is requesting from the 6th Corps command to inform him what happened,

22    because that is something that Tadeusz Mazowiecki wants to know.

23            Can you remember now, in view of the fact that the Presidency was

24    informed of this and you had frequent contacts, can you remember having

25    any knowledge whatsoever about this?  And I'm referring to Doljani in

Page 25150

 1    particular, near Jablanica, and you'll see why I'm insisting on Doljani

 2    later on.  Did you know about this and this letter?

 3       A.   I don't know how you expect me to have knowledge of this, because

 4    from this document it does not follow that the state commission for the

 5    exchange of POWs was involved at all.  It is obvious that the -- that a

 6    crime had taken place, that a crime had been committed.

 7       Q.   Mr. Masovic, just say, "I don't know," and that's fine.  I don't

 8    expect you to know about all the crimes committed in Bosnia.  Just say you

 9    don't know and that will suffice and then I can move on to my next

10    question.

11       A.   All right.  Fine.

12       Q.   Did you know or did you -- do you know now that on that occasion,

13    that is say, after the BH army attack on Doljani, in the Jablanica

14    collection for POWs which was known as the Museum at Jablanica, that the

15    Croatian population was taken out of the village and that they were

16    incarcerated there?  Do you know about that?  I'm referring to July.

17       A.   Yes, yes, I do know that in the Museum in Jablanica there were

18    prisoners or evacuated persons.  I'm using both terms, because there was a

19    dispute about this and complaints from the HVO to the international --

20    ICRC who refused to record these persons as detainees or incarcerated

21    persons but as people who had been evacuated and the HVO, rather,

22    Mr. Pusic, on several occasions wrote letters of protest and sent them to

23    the ICRC asking them to amend the status of those persons found in the

24    Museum.  Quite frankly, I don't know what their status was, so I can't say

25    one way or another.  I can't say they were prisoners or perhaps they were

Page 25151

 1    there of their own free will either.

 2       Q.   But you do agree with me nonetheless that in some collection

 3    centre no one would go there of their often free will?

 4       A.   Well, it wasn't the case of a collection centre.  It wasn't a

 5    collection centre at all as far as I know.

 6       Q.   All right fine.  Now, do you know that in this collection centre

 7    there might have been women and children?

 8       A.   I think Mr. Pusic several times at our meetings insisted upon the

 9    fact that those persons be evacuated to territory under HVO control, and I

10    think he even said that there were some children too.

11       Q.   All right.  Mr. Masovic, you said a moment ago that as far as you

12    know, they were not in collection centres.  Now, look at 6D 00035.  It's

13    the document with the yellow sticker, because that document has the status

14    of exhibit.  6D 00035.  And we're talking about Jablanica now.  Just tell

15    me when you've found it.  It's up on e-court too on your screen.

16       A.   I have it before me.

17       Q.   Right.  Now, this is a BH army document.  It is a document of the

18    6th Corps of the military police battalion, the military police company of

19    Jablanica.  The date is the 5th of August, 1993, and it says here the 6th

20    Corps Military Police Battalion, subject, list of persons situated in the

21    SRZ, and that is a collection centre of POWs, that that is the

22    abbreviation used, the SRZ.

23       A.   I really can't say whether that's what it means.

24       Q.   All right, you can't, sir, fine.  Do you know that the Museum in

25    Jablanica was in fact that collection centre of POWs?

Page 25152

 1       A.   Yes, I do know about that.  Mr. Pusic spoke about that on several

 2    occasions.

 3       Q.   Well, then that's it.  That's that.  Do you want me to repeat it

 4    for the transcript?  The list of persons situated in the SRZ of the Museum

 5    at Jablanica who were not members of the HVO.

 6            Now, Mr. Masovic, I'm going to ask you for the Trial Chamber's

 7    benefit, because perhaps the Trial Chamber didn't know who the women are

 8    and who the men are judging by the names of our part of the world, look at

 9    number 4 it says Dragica.  That's a woman's name, isn't it?

10       A.   Right.

11       Q.   Number 10, another lady's name; right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Number 12, same thing?

14       A.   Right.

15       Q.   Number 13?

16       A.   That's right.

17       Q.   Number 18?

18       A.   That's right.

19       Q.   Number 20?

20       A.   19 and 20.

21       Q.   Right, 19 and 20.  And finally, Mr. Masovic, unfortunately I don't

22    have time, but on this list, and we can go through it if you want us to do

23    so and if the Trial Chamber requests it, out of a total of 87 persons on

24    that list who were not members of the HVO, which is something that the

25    6th Corps Military Police Battalion claims, there are 53 women on that

Page 25153

 1    list.  There are 53 women, 53 women's names on that list.  You knew

 2    nothing about that?

 3       A.   Yes, I did know about that, and I repeat, they were persons who

 4    you mentioned and were mentioned by Mr. Pusic who were from Doljani,

 5    evacuated --

 6       Q.   Mr. Masovic --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down and make

 8    pauses between question and answer, thank you, and turn on their

 9    microphones.

10            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Can you answer just briefly, please, if you can.  This is a

12    document from the 6th Corps.  Does it arise from this document that they

13    are at the SRZ Museum, whatever that is?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So these are not people that may be at large somewhere.  At least

16    that's what arises from this document.

17       A.   I can -- I have to repeat and say that for the International

18    Committee of the Red Cross their status was very clear.  They were

19    persons --

20       Q.   Sir, sir.  Mr. Masovic, but their status for the BiH army was that

21    they were in the collection centre for prisoners of war.  This is what I'm

22    trying to say, and this arises from this document.  If you don't know it,

23    if you can't comment on it, just say so and we'll move on.

24       A.   My previous answer has not been recorded in the transcript, so I

25    would kindly ask you to allow me finish it.

Page 25154

 1            For the International Red Cross, their status was the status of

 2    persons that had to be evacuated.

 3       Q.   Then it is clear that there is a difference between the position

 4    of the International Red Cross and the BiH army.  At least this is what

 5    arises from this document, because they were in the collection centre.

 6    And if the Red Cross says they had to be evacuated, it doesn't mean that

 7    they were not in the collection centre.

 8       A.   You are persistently trying to make me say that this is a

 9    collection centre, and we agreed previously this was the SRZ Museum in

10    Jablanica.  I said that I don't know what it means.  I'm not saying that

11    it is not what you're saying it is, but I don't know, and please do not

12    try and make me say that this was a collection centre because I'm not

13    going to answer in that way because I don't know.  If I did know I would

14    answer.

15       Q.   Mr. Masovic, you have answered.  You have of told me that the

16    Jablanica Museum was in actual fact a collection centre for the prisoners

17    of war.

18       A.   In the Jablanica Museum for a certain while prisoners of war were

19    kept.

20       Q.   Very -- thank you very much.  We're moving on.

21            We have already established that in October you assisted an

22    exchange in Konjic.  You had lists during the exchange, and let me ask you

23    this:  Do you know, and I will allow that you don't, that in Konjic, in

24    the general area of Konjic, that is, the BiH army arrested civilians,

25    women and children, the whole families even?

Page 25155

 1       A.   I cannot be aware of that for a simple reason.  They did not enter

 2    the process that I was in charge of.  I'm talking about the process of

 3    exchanges of prisoners of war save for the two category that I would like

 4    to go back to.  If you're talking about the specific exchange which took

 5    place on the 19th of October --

 6       Q.   No, I'm not.

 7       A.   In the territory of Konjic when it comes to the Croatian Defence

 8    Council, I was involved in the release of 309 members of the Croatian

 9    Defence Council.

10       Q.   Mr. Masovic --

11       A.   And this is what I know.  As for the rest, I can't be aware of

12    anything.

13       Q.   Mr. Masovic, you have told us, and I'm not asking you this without

14    any reason, I believe that I've laid the foundation for my next question,

15    you said if the women and the children were arrested and especially the

16    children and women against whom proceedings were not undergoing, if this

17    was done by the BH army, it must have been an incident.  That's why I'm

18    asking you, did you have any information that this was not an incident and

19    that's why I'm asking you whether you know that in Konjic there were

20    arrests preceding the exchange and even women and children and whole

21    families were arrested?

22       A.   I don't know.

23       Q.   Let's look at 2D 00589.  This is the last document in my binder

24    save for the one that was added subsequently.  Have the first page on

25    e-court, but I believe that things will be easier for you if you find the

Page 25156

 1    hard copy in my binder.

 2            Did you find it?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   This is a document issued on the 23rd of November, 1993, Konjic

 5    municipality, social services administration.  This is obviously after the

 6    civilian population and troops had been exchanged and left Konjic.  This

 7    list was compiled of imprisoned civilians in Konjic.

 8            Mr. Masovic, this list contains the names of 466 individuals.  As

 9    you can see in the original document, certain names are accompanied by the

10    word "with their families."  There is also a large number of women.  Let's

11    just take, for example, the first page on which you will find the name of

12    Milka Baric, a female, under number 5.  Alenka Baric under 8.  This is

13    obviously two members of the same family; did you know anything about

14    this?

15       A.   No, I didn't I've not seen this document before.  This is a

16    document by the HVO, isn't it?

17       Q.   Yes.  By the HVO with the names and family names of individuals

18    and whole families that hailed from the area of Konjic and that resided

19    there up to this date.  And were arrested before this date and before that

20    they were civilians.  You don't know anything about that?

21       A.   I can only tell you that really it absolutely doesn't make sense

22    for the International Committee of the Red Cross not to register any of

23    these individuals.  I suppose that none of them were registered because

24    there are a lot of names in this list.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

Page 25157

 1    continues] ... trying to avoid answering this question.  Whenever the

 2    counsel asks you whether you knew whether the ABiH would arrest civilians

 3    whether they be women or children you answer by mentioning ICRC.  That is

 4    not the question.  The question is whether you knew the ABiH would arrest

 5    civilians.  Just say whether you knew or you didn't.  Don't try to involve

 6    the ICRC in this matter.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have confirmed and I confirm it

 8    again that I have information about different parts of Bosnia and

 9    Herzegovina that people, civilians were arrested without any legal grounds

10    for that I said it yesterday and I confirm it today that this was

11    incidents, and this -- this was done by certain individuals or units of

12    the BH army.  This is what I said yesterday, and I repeat it today.

13            In answer to this particular question, I have said and I repeated

14    that this list was compiled by the HVO and that according to what I knew

15    could -- is not credible.  It is not reliable, because for such a large

16    number of civilians, women, children, men, it is absolutely certain that

17    this fact would have been recorded and made public.  I'm sure that at

18    least one of the international institutions who was tasked with recording

19    such incidents and this was in October 1993, which I would like draw

20    attention to, this was very far in the conflict, I'm sure this fact would

21    have been recorded by the International Red Cross.  I'm sure of that.

22            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Mr. Masovic, if this document was drafted by the HVO, the previous

24    one was drafted by the BiH army, and the previous document contains the

25    names of 53 women.  And if the 53 women had been incarcerated this would

Page 25158

 1    not constitute an incident.  Do you agree with me?  I have put a

 2    hypothetical question to you.  If.

 3       A.   Yes, if.  If they had been incarcerated, especially if they were

 4    females, if those were children, then 50 people would not constitute an

 5    incident.  It would be much more than an incident, I agree with that.

 6       Q.   Mr. Masovic, do you know that this Tribunal, The Hague Tribunal,

 7    issues a first instance judgement, IT-01-47-T on 15 March 2006 in the case

 8    Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.  Are you aware of

 9    that as a former attorney-at-law?

10       A.   Yes, I know that a judgement was passed in this case, that there

11    was a decision.

12       Q.   Do you know that this decision establishes that the BiH army

13    arrested civilians, women, children, which did not belong to the

14    categories that you mentioned?

15       A.   I've not had an occasion to read the sentence, the decision.

16       Q.   Let's look at it together.  Let's look at document 2D 00587, which

17    is the third document in my binder.  Just for the transcript, I would like

18    to say that for the purpose of this cross-examination we have uploaded on

19    e-court, i.e., we're going to use the document starting with count 1303 of

20    the decision to count 1311 of this decision.  Let's look at the decision

21    together, Mr. Masovic, and would I particularly like to draw everybody's

22    attention to these parts of the sentence are legally binding, because no

23    appeal was lodged to these parts of the -- the decision either by the

24    Prosecution or by the Defence.

25            It says in count 1303, two detention centres were set up in

Page 25159

 1    Mehurici in Mehurici elementary school and in the smithy, known as

 2    Mehurici blacksmith shop.

 3            The school took in approximately 250 Bosnian Croat civilians

 4    between 6 June and 24 June 1993.

 5            Every part of this decision is very, very interesting.  However,

 6    the time does not permit me what the Trial Chamber has established with

 7    this regard so could you please look at count 1306.  This is on the

 8    following page in the English version and in the B/C/S version.  It says

 9    here:  "According to Witness Vinko Tadic, a Bosnian Croat civilian, a

10    group of 13 or 14 armed soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms arrived in

11    Konjska on the slope of Mount Vlasic early in the morning on 6 June

12    1993."

13            I skip a sentence and I continue.  "He stated that he was unable

14    to identify the military unit to which the group of soldiers belonged, but

15    he said that some of them wore green armbands with a badge marked 'MOS.'"

16            It goes on:  "The soldiers then assembled and arrested a group of

17    villagers that included men, women and children."

18            I skip a sentence and I go on:  "Next on the order of a soldier

19    whom they called Hadzija, the soldiers brought them to the village of

20    Mehurici."

21            I apologise.  "On the order of a soldier named Hadzija, the

22    soldiers brought them to the village of Mehurici.  When they arrived in

23    Mehurici the villagers were taken to Mehurici elementary school and

24    installed in its sports room."

25            Please look at the part of this decision under 1307 on the

Page 25160

 1    following page.  It says:  "As indicated previously in the judgement on 8

 2    June 1993, following a fresh outbreak of fighting between the HVO and the

 3    ABiH, in Maline 306th Brigade Military Police escorted a column of

 4    approximately 250 prisoners consisting of Bosnian Croat civilians and the

 5    HVO soldiers who had surrendered previously to Mehurici elementary

 6    school."

 7            Under 1308 it says:  "Most of the detainees assembled in the

 8    school sports room were elderly people, women and children, including very

 9    young children and pregnant women."

10            I skip a sentence.

11            And it goes on:  "Some witnesses stated that the civilians were

12    locked up in the school in order to protect them from the Mujahedin given

13    the proximity of their camp in Poljanica, or to safeguard the civilian

14    population in view of the intensifying fighting in the region."

15            We can look at the footnote.  This was stated by Remzija Siljeg,

16    Munir Karic, who are obviously Bosniaks and did not fall in the category

17    of the detainees who were all Croats.  Wouldn't that be correct?

18            It goes on to say in the judgement that there were some witnesses

19    who spoke about the interest of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina to

20    exchange these prisoners for -- for the prisoners -- Muslim prisoners

21    captured by the HVO.  I'm just going to refer to one more count in the

22    judgement, 1310, which says that individuals and especially men who were

23    detained in the gym were physically ill-treated.

24            Mr. Masovic, you said that you were not aware of this judgement,

25    but let me ask you whether you heard of these events during the war or

Page 25161

 1    during the exchanges? Did you hear of the events that had taken place in

 2    territory of Zenica regarding the incarceration of Croatian civilians?

 3       A.   The civilians that are mentioned in this judgement and the reason

 4    for their stay in the school is not clear from what you have just read out

 5    to me, because there are witnesses who say one thing, and there are also

 6    others who say something else, were never the subject of exchanges.  One

 7    of the witnesses, as I can see, or more of them say that they may have

 8    been incarcerated with a view to being exchanged.  I wouldn't know about

 9    that.

10       Q.   Mr. Masovic, you have left me with the room to ask you this

11    because you have said expressly that the policy of the government in

12    Sarajevo was to send these two categories for exchange.  You said that any

13    arrest of people outside of these two categories fall under the motion of

14    incident.  I'm putting it to you that the people who were arrested here

15    were also pregnant women and children who were certainly not -- did not

16    fall within those two categories.  I'm asking you whether you knew

17    anything about that during your mandate.  The Trial Chamber has

18    established that, and the Honourable Judge Antonetti was the Presiding

19    Judge in this case.  He has established that for a fact.  I'm asking you

20    what you know about that as a witness sitting before this Trial Chamber

21    today?

22       A.   I repeat:  This category of civilians was not part of the mandate

23    of the commission that I was in charge of and also it doesn't arise from

24    what you have just said or at least I don't see it, you are more familiar

25    with the judgement, I see it for the first time, but I don't see why these

Page 25162

 1    people would have been kept in the school.

 2       Q.   Mr. Masovic -- Mr. Masovic, under wartime conditions is there a

 3    single logical reason for a pregnant child -- woman and child to be found

 4    in prisoner anywhere?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Right.  Now, I have to wind up, and I'm almost done.  Now, you

 7    don't have to agree with some of the things I'm going to say, but from the

 8    documents I've shown you, does it follow that - this is my question - that

 9    the BH army arrested civilians among whom women and children.  From the

10    documents we've seen.  I'm not asking you on the basis of your knowledge

11    but on the basis of the documents we've just seen?

12       A.   Let me repeat, what I know is that that was at the level of

13    incidents.  They were incidents.

14       Q.   Right.  Thank you.  I haven't got more time to go into all this.

15    I just have an hour at my disposal, so that will suffice.

16            According to the number of arrested persons, from the documents

17    we've seen, from the different places where they were arrested, can you

18    tell us now, on the assumption that these documents are true and correct,

19    that they were incidents or were they something more than just an

20    incident?

21       A.   These documents don't speak of arrested persons or rather

22    incarcerated persons.  In the document all that is mentioned - you said

23    that the Croatian Defence document made this document in Ljubuski in

24    November and that this refers to persons who imprisoned, 400 and

25    something.

Page 25163

 1       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I hope you're not going to deny that from the

 2    judgement I read out that there were two detention centres.  And I've just

 3    quoted that from the document, the document the BH army compiled, how many

 4    there were.  Just take this one here, this judgement.  They are detention

 5    centres.  You don't have to answer my question.  You can say yes, no, or I

 6    don't know, or you don't have to answer, but I haven't got the time to go

 7    back to the arguments that I put forward which are incontestable when it

 8    comes to the judgement.

 9            Your position is clear to me.  I'm quite clear on your position.

10    All I'm asking you is does that follow from these documents?  You can say

11    that it doesn't or that it does or that you don't know.  Let me repeat

12    according to the number of persons incarcerated and the different places

13    that this happened and according to the documents I showed you can this be

14    considered to be just a mere incident, the arrest of women and children,

15    would -- would you consider those to be incidents?  Or something more?

16       A.   From the documents that you've shown me, it clearly follows that

17    in all these cases they were not arrests as you state.  So in the SRZ

18    Museum Jablanica --

19       Q.   Thank you, thank you.  I don't have any time to go into all that.

20    You gave me an answer and that will suffice.

21            Mr. Masovic, in the judgement which I quoted a moment ago it says

22    that the BH army, among other things, arrested civilians for an exchange.

23    Can you confirm that that's what it says in the judgement there, that that

24    was what a certain number of witnesses also claimed?  Say you can't

25    confirm it, you can.

Page 25164

 1       A.   Well, just tell me -- I'm not sure what paragraph you're referring

 2    to.

 3       Q.   Well, forget my question.  The paragraph exists, the judgement

 4    exists, the Trial Chamber will deal with it.  I think that's more

 5    important than your answer and my question, but I want to ask you one more

 6    thing.  You spoke about the HVO policy.  I don't have a single document.

 7    It's a short topic, so let's take it slowly.  You spoke of the HVO policy

 8    to evacuate civilians from the area controlled by the BH army and areas

 9    which were not -- or, rather, persons who were not detained, not

10    incarcerated.  I don't want to mention any other -- any of the accused,

11    but you said that you gained the impression that that was HVO policy, that

12    they wanted to evacuate the Croats from areas where Croats were not

13    incarcerated; right?

14       A.   Right.

15       Q.   Now, Mr. Masovic, is it normal on the basis of your experience for

16    civilians to wish to leave the territory which was taken control of by the

17    enemy army in which their compatriots were arrested and where crimes might

18    have been committed?  Is it normal for civilians, civilians who consider

19    themselves to be enemy ones because under -- in quotation marks.  Is it

20    normal that they wish to leave the territory that was not controlled by

21    their side?

22       A.   I spoke about this in a different context yesterday and an

23    attempt --

24       Q.   Mr. Masovic, look at my context and answer me within my context.

25    We spent the whole war in Sarajevo, you and I.  Is it normal?  I just

Page 25165

 1    wants you to confirm this, if you will, that civilians want to leave a

 2    territory that was taken control of by the enemy army?  That's how the

 3    Bosniaks left and the Serbs left and the Croats left.  Isn't that normal?

 4    Is that normal for civilians to leave the territory that has been taken

 5    control of by the enemy army?

 6       A.   It's not normal if that happens through the process of the

 7    exchange of those civilians.  Then it's not normal.  Under different

 8    conditions it would be normal, in my opinion, regardless of the territory,

 9    enemy or not, that civilians try to avoid war operations, but it's not

10    normal that that will should be done through the commission for the

11    exchange of POWs -- or prisoners.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Counsel.

13            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   It seems to me that the interpreters have gained allies among the

15    technicians, so when we speed up the microphones seem to be switched off,

16    but let's look at the Doljani situation, where quite obviously a massacre

17    had taken place and Mr. Delic wrote about that, too, in his letter.  When

18    we look at the question -- the instance of Konjic where there was an

19    exchange of HVO members in large numbers and Jablanica in that Museum

20    where there were members of the HVO and some other citizens.  And when we

21    look at the case of Zenica from this judgement and the broader area around

22    Zenica, and if we remember Bugojno where 21 Croats were killed, we know

23    that, and we know that they were very prominent Croats, they were leaders

24    of the Croatian ethnicity in Bugojno, is it then the legitimate right of

25    civilians living in that territory to wish to leave when incidents like

Page 25166

 1    this are taking place, not to say crimes - or let me say crimes - and when

 2    their compatriots are being arrested?  Would that be normal?

 3       A.   So it's an individual decision, and that's what happened in

 4    wartime.  Some people left the territory for those and other reasons, for

 5    hunger and fear, out of fear, or some other reason, the possibility of

 6    finding themselves in other places.

 7       Q.   Let's take fear, one of the factors you mentioned.  Was that one

 8    of the basic motives that moved a large number of individuals to move out?

 9    I'm not talking about individuals.  Foca -- not Srebrenica, other

10    territories from which the Bosniaks were expelled by the Serbs.  Was

11    the -- was fear a legitimate reason?

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your last question, Ms. Nozica,

13    because we've got another two counsel to intervene.

14            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes, Your Honour, but our Defence will have some

15    questions.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

17            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.  Your Honour, I

18    just have two or three more questions, and I've been given permission from

19    the Coric Defence.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.  You've been given some

21    time.  How much?

22            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll need a total of five minutes,

23    which was what I was given.

24            MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

25    questions for this witness, so if my colleague Ms. Nozica needs a few more

Page 25167

 1    minutes, she can have our time.

 2            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I'm going to ask you this now, you were asked it

 4    during the examination-in-chief:  Why did the Croatian civilians, can you

 5    tell us why the Croatian civilians from Catici went to take refuge in the

 6    base of the French Battalion?  Did they do that out of fear?  Did they

 7    leave their homes out of fear?  You don't know?

 8       A.   I don't know.

 9       Q.   All right.  Fine.  Mr. Masovic, when somebody leaves their home

10    and goes to the French Battalion base, let's forget that they were Croats

11    just for a moment.  Can you and I assume that people do that kind of thing

12    out of fear?

13       A.   I don't know.  I don't want to speculate about things that I don't

14    know.  I have absolutely no knowledge that.  All I can do is to assume and

15    guess, and I don't think that that is what is required here.

16            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, but I'm sorry, but I get the feeling

17    that you are inviting the witness to speculate what other people might

18    have for motives for doing this and that and I wonder whether this gives a

19    solid factual basis to the Chamber.  You want him to say what -- what you

20    want him to say, but you ask him to speculate.  What do you think other

21    people's -- why do other people do this and that?  Every one of us can

22    answer that question.  I don't know why this witness should add anything

23    to the knowledge of the Chamber if he makes that kind of assumptions.

24            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, it is my

25    task and duty to try and extract from the witness what I want to extract.

Page 25168

 1    That is the business of cross-examination.  If the witness says he knows

 2    nothing about it, I won't insist further.  But I did ask him about

 3    something that would be considered to be normal.  If the witness says he

 4    doesn't want to speculate, I'll move on.  That's sufficient for me.

 5       Q.   And now my last question, sir --

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me ask a follow-up question.

 7    When people would be liberated, released, you and the members of your

 8    commission, would you meet with the people who had just been released?

 9    Would you discuss with them about what had happened, what they had

10    experienced, why they had been arrested, what they were intending to do in

11    the future?  Did you have this kind of contact?  I mean, between you and

12    the members of your commission and the released people.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We focused exclusively on seeing

14    whether those prisoners who had been free -- freed knew about other

15    prisoners who possibly stayed on in the camps or prisons from which these

16    others had come or in some other prison or camp where they stayed from

17    time to time.  All other questions, questions about their future, who

18    mistreated them, why they were arrested in the first place, all these

19    other questions were the task of other state organs to delve into, mostly

20    the police, the military police if it was POWs and prosecutors if they

21    had -- if they were in serious violation of international humanitarian

22    law.

23            We in the commission just focused on their knowledge about the

24    names of people who stayed on, who remained in the camps or prisons after

25    they had left.

Page 25169

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Therefore, you had

 2    contacts with the people who had been released.  However, those who were

 3    released, did they at any time tell you that -- that when they had been

 4    captured it was -- they were captured because the other side would also

 5    capture people, and there were between the warring parties exchange of

 6    prisoners?  One side would take some people, the other one would do the

 7    same, and then they would make phone calls in order to exchange prisoners.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not ask them things like

 9    that.  When we were interested in was whether there were any more

10    prisoners in the camps and whether these prisoners had taken part in

11    burying other prisoners or had anything to do with the places where these

12    others were buried and where we could find the bodily remains of the

13    prisoners who might have been killed.

14            Now, all your questions, Your Honour, all the questions you've

15    just asked me, are questions that they asked or -- or, rather, the police,

16    the military police, the prosecutors asked them immediately after they

17    left the camps and prisons.  Quite literally sometimes directly from the

18    place of exchange, took them to the police station or the policemen would

19    come to these locations if we were dealing with a larger number of people

20    released, or they would go to the schools or gymnastics halls where the

21    released prisoners were collected, and then the officials would take

22    statements of that nature from the prisoners who had been released.

23            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Mr. Masovic, now, you've just told the Trial Chamber that you were

25    a Member of Parliament.  You're a -- you have been politically active for

Page 25170

 1    some time, so now I'd like to ask you a question which is broader and

 2    relates to your political knowledge and other knowledge.  We discussed the

 3    situation, a hypothetical situation, according to which the population

 4    finding themselves on a territory occupied by the enemy army does its best

 5    to leave the area, I would like to ask you in your opinion - if you can

 6    answer do it, so if you cannot, say you cannot - would it be the duty of

 7    the authorities to which these civilians belonged to protect them and to

 8    try to put them up in an area where they would be safe and secure?  Would

 9    that be the duty of the authorities regardless of which authorities they

10    would be?

11       A.   I'm not sure I understood your question.

12       Q.   Let me make myself clearer.  We had a few interruptions but I'd

13    like to take you back to the civilians' departure from the areas occupied,

14    for instance, by an enemy army, and I'm asking you the following:  In your

15    opinion, is it the duty of the authorities to whom those civilians belong,

16    those civilians who stayed on in the territory, is it the duty of the

17    authorities to try and relocate them somewhere else where they would be

18    safer, move them to an area where they would be safer if they are in

19    jeopardy?

20       A.   Are you talking about an international conflict or what?  I don't

21    understand what you want, what you're getting at.

22            MR. STRINGER:  I believe that to an extent the question is asking

23    for a legal opinion, the witness is not competent to address this

24    particular issue in terms of the responsibilities, legal responsibilities

25    of the authorities.  I think certainly he's competent to talk about his

Page 25171

 1    experience in the release issues.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, the witness is an

 3    attorney-at-law.  He has been a member of a large number of legal

 4    commissions in his country, even of a constitutional commission.  So if

 5    there is one individual who is able to state a view with regard to a sort

 6    of problem of legal nature, he's the one.

 7            So please proceed, Ms. Nozica, but maybe you might rephrase your

 8    question.

 9            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Mr. Masovic, according to your experience and legal knowledge,

11    would it be logical for the authorities to try and relocate the citizens

12    somewhere safe if they are in the territory under the control of the enemy

13    army and as such threatened in some way?  Wouldn't that be the obligation

14    of that government?

15       A.   Are you referring of to the concrete conflict in

16    Bosnia-Herzegovina or speaking generally?

17       Q.   I'm speaking about the concrete conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18    Would the government have to have done that in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19       A.   The government in Bosnia-Herzegovina is one and only, the

20    government in Sarajevo.

21       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I didn't want to open that subject, but let me tell

22    you this.  There was just one government and you asked me to agree with

23    you?

24       A.   And my positive answer to your question would be this:  That

25    government in Sarajevo was duty-bound to make sure to protect all the

Page 25172

 1    civilians that were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.

 2       Q.   Mr. Masovic, did they succeed?  Did they succeed to protect

 3    everybody?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   How many Serbs and Croats in Sarajevo were killed and taken to the

 6    front line and exchanged how many such persons were there, do you know?

 7    Did the government in Sarajevo -- in Sarajevo where the headquarters of

 8    the government was to -- were they successful at protecting Croats in

 9    November 1993 when the leadership of the HVO were arrested?  Were they

10    afraid and did they leave Sarajevo because of that?

11       A.   This was not done by the government in Sarajevo but the Serbian

12    government in Kula.

13       Q.   Where was Mr. Zec [phoen] incarcerated?

14       A.   In Sarajevo.

15       Q.   Who arrested him in Sarajevo, Serbs or Muslims?

16       A.   It was the government.  After --

17            MR. STRINGER:  I'm one of many perhaps who is struggling to follow

18    this dialogue, but it seems to me it's getting beyond the scope of the

19    direct examination or at least beyond the scope of what's relevant.

20            MS. NOZICA:  No, no.

21            MR. STRINGER:  We're talking about the Serbs authorities here, and

22    so again if I could just finish, I'd like to say that the exchange is

23    happening extremely quickly, and it seems to be going in a direction that

24    doesn't mean anything to me and so I'm objecting.

25            MR. KARNAVAS:  The exchange is rather quick and they do need to

Page 25173

 1    slow down, but what is quite evident today is that the gentleman is

 2    obviously biased and that he is one-sided, and I think it is relevant,

 3    because what Ms. Nozica is showing is the bias of this gentleman and we're

 4    going to be arguing that at least with some of his answers that this Trial

 5    Chamber should disregard.  That's the purpose.  That's why it's relevant.

 6            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, counsel's --

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Look, we have to have a

 8    break.  We will have a 20-minute break, and after the break around 6.00,

 9    Ms. Nozica will have to finish because then we will have Mr. Kovacic and

10    possibly some additional -- some redirect from Mr. Stringer.

11            We shall resume in 20 minutes' time.

12                          --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The hearing's

15    resumed.

16            Mr. Stringer, you were on your feet, and I interrupted you.  What

17    did you want to say?

18            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I had made an objection at the end

19    of the proceedings.  I've said what I wanted to say, and I have nothing to

20    add at this time.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22            So, Ms. Nozica, are you done?

23            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I will be done

24    very soon.

25            To Mr. Stringer's objection, I would like to say that on direct

Page 25174

 1    Mr. Masovic mentioned Mr. Zelic, and that is why I went back to that

 2    question, and now I would like to draw my cross-examination to an end.

 3       Q.   Mr. Masovic, you've told us that you recognised only the

 4    authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo; is that correct?  You

 5    said that immediately before our last break.

 6       A.   The government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo as the

 7    government of an internationally recognised state of Bosnia and

 8    Herzegovina.

 9       Q.   Mr. Masovic, I lived in Sarajevo together with you, and that is

10    also the only government that I recognise myself, but I'm asking you now

11    whether you are familiar with the fact that the international community

12    recognised the government of the HZ HB and Republika Srpska, that the

13    international community negotiated with the two of them, that the

14    government in Sarajevo also negotiated with these two entities, to call

15    them that.  Are you aware of that?

16       A.   Now you are referring to the constitutional matter, and I am now

17    referring to the constitution as well, and who negotiated with whom, who

18    recognised whom, I really don't know.  I was not familiar with those

19    negotiations.  If you'd asked me about the constitutional order of

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would say this was the government in Sarajevo.

21       Q.   No, I'm not asking you that because you have already stated it.

22    We will not go into that matter.

23            Finally, when we're talking about the matter of recognition, or

24    factual recognition as you put it, you will be familiar with the fact that

25    representative of the HZ HB signed the Washington Agreement.  Are you

Page 25175

 1    aware of that?  Just say yes or no.

 2       A.   I don't know who you're referring to.  Can you please be more

 3    precise?  Who are you referring to?

 4       Q.   The representative of the HZ HB.  Do you know who signed the

 5    Dayton agreement on behalf of the HZ HB?

 6       A.   I believe that it was signed by Presidents Izetbegovic, Tudjman,

 7    and Slobodan Milosevic.

 8       Q.   Do you know that Mr. Zubak, as a representative of the HZ HB, also

 9    participated in the negotiations?

10       A.   I know that he participated but I don't know what his position

11    was.

12       Q.   You don't know.  Thank you, Mr. Masovic.  I have just received a

13    suggestion from my colleague.

14            Tell me, Mr. Masovic, just one more question, when you were

15    talking about the discovery of the Goranci grave, you said that Mrs. Sonja

16    Mulac called you - Interrupt me if I'm not interpreting your answer

17    correctly - and that you said about a dead body she recognised a uniform

18    and she concluded this might be a Bosniak and that's when she called you

19    and that's when you arrived there.  Is that what you said?

20       A.   I believe that somebody from the Serb commission suggested to her

21    that those were not Serb soldiers as they originally thought but, rather,

22    that they were Bosniaks, and that's when I went there on the following day

23    to assist the exhumation.

24       Q.   How can you recognise somebody as being a Bosniak by their

25    uniform?  What was that Bosniak army, and what uniforms did it wear?  I'm

Page 25176

 1    asking you this because you are insisting on the fact that there was only

 2    the government in Sarajevo covering the entire territory of Bosnia and

 3    Herzegovina and that it was supposed to be the government or the authority

 4    representing all of the citizens.  I'm asking you how could you have

 5    assumed on the basis of the uniform that the person buried in that uniform

 6    was a Bosniak; what kind of a uniform would that have been?  Was that the

 7    uniform of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 8       A.   I'm not talking about Bosniaks.  I'm talking about members of the

 9    BiH army, some of whom were not even Bosniaks but they wore the uniforms

10    of the BiH army.  One of the ten identified members of the BiH army from

11    Vranica was not Bosniak.  His father is Serb and his mother is a Bosniak.

12       Q.   Sir, we still have the transcript before us.  On page 15, page

13    82 -- line 82 [as interpreted], you say in answer to my question that

14    Sonja Mulac called you because she had recognised one person as being

15    Bosniak.  I'm asking you this:  Do you believe, yourself -- when she

16    called you did you believe that members of the BH army were supposed to be

17    Bosniaks, all of them?  Is that what you implied when you said that?

18       A.   If I said that during your cross-examination, if I said that those

19    were Bosniaks, it was not correct.  I believe that in my testimony

20    yesterday - I believe but I'm not sure - that after the uniform of the BiH

21    army was recognised, I went there to assist in the exhumation.

22       Q.   I remember that you said that the uniform told you that it was a

23    Bosniak.

24       A.   It is impossible to tell who's who just by the uniform.  It's

25    impossible.

Page 25177

 1       Q.   I agree with you.  I agree with you when you say that.

 2       A.   If we're talking about ethnicity, but obviously it is possible to

 3    recognise the army that that uniform belonged to.  And based on the

 4    uniform, we were able to tell the army that the victim belonged to without

 5    knowing whether that person was a Serb, a Croat, or a Bosniak or somebody

 6    else from Vranica.

 7       Q.   Very well, Mr. Masovic.  I agree with you.  That's what -- why I

 8    found your yesterday's answer strange.

 9            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have

10    finished my cross-examination.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

12            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to file

13    an oral request in keeping with your decision of 10 May 2007.  I'm

14    referring to paragraphs 11 and 12 to allow Mr. Praljak to put questions to

15    the witness himself, and I'm basing this request on the fact that the

16    topics in question were -- have been studied by General Praljak after the

17    war.  He was in charge of the research of that particular topic, the topic

18    of prisoners of war and victims in various locations in

19    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He has collected all the publicly available

20    information.  He analysed that information, and he has published the

21    information in a booklet that was published in 2006.

22            I believe that he possesses a lot of knowledge about the topic,

23    which makes him competent in terms of the definition of extraordinary

24    circumstances that is referred to in the decision that was passed on the

25    10th of May, 2007.

Page 25178

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the title of this

 2    booklet?

 3            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The title of the booklet -- you have

 4    it, Your Honours, before you.  "Croatian victims during the war in

 5    Bosnia-Herzegovina," which provides an overview of various locations and

 6    events, and the booklet is based on the existing literature.

 7            I would kindly ask the usher to -- [In English] Usher.  I gave it

 8    to him.  Okay.  You will find -- you will find that book enclosed,

 9    Your Honour.  Earlier we have used some similar material which was then

10    only the draft.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer.

12            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have two objections.

13    The first is that in our view this subject matter and this witness do not

14    fall within any of the exceptions identified by the Trial Chamber in its

15    ruling.  There's nothing particularly exceptional about this topic, and

16    particularly in view of the fact that it may be something that the General

17    has studied or any of us has possibly studied.  It doesn't fall within the

18    terms of the Trial Chamber's order, certainly not the sort of military

19    expertise, military aspects that the Trial Chamber has allowed

20    General Praljak to conduct examinations on in the past.

21            Secondly, I've got a book here for which I don't have a

22    translation.  I see that it is largely maps, but it's not just maps.  It's

23    a lot of other things, including photographs, diagrams, commentary for

24    which I do not have a translation, and that's another basis for the

25    objection.

Page 25179

 1            So it's our submission that this is not a situation which

 2    Mr. Praljak, especially in view of the fact that he's got such competent

 3    counsel, needs to himself conduct the cross-examination.

 4            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may respond to

 7    one part of my learned friend's objection, the initial part in which my

 8    learned friend claims that this argument is not in keeping with the

 9    provisions of your order.  I believe that this argument does not hold its

10    ground.  You said that -- in your order that exceptional circumstances may

11    arise in two occasions, if the accused himself participated in an event or

12    he is particularly competent to discuss this issue.  This is the topic of

13    victims, which relates to the topic of exchanges in the unfortunate war.

14    I believe that is very specific area, bearing in mind the rumours, the

15    policy, the propaganda goals that existed on both sides, and

16    General Praljak has -- has invested a lot of effort to study just one of

17    the segments of this topic and research that based on facts.

18            Maybe General Praljak can supplement my argument.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer said that he did

20    not have the translation.  Would you mind reading out the first page just

21    to have a idea as to whether he has special knowledge in this field when

22    it comes to missing people.  But I can lend you mine.

23            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I have not got a

24    copy, but I believe it is forthcoming.

25            [In English] Maybe Mr. Praljak, since he has a copy.

Page 25180

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, since Mr. Praljak has the

 2    book, he can read the first page.

 3            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

 4    Your Honours.  Thank you very much for the time given to me.  I will

 5    briefly explain --

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry.  Sorry.  You haven't been

 7    granted anything yet.  There is a discussion among the Judges on the

 8    Bench.  I wanted to know what the title was.  Would you mind reading it

 9    out and the interpreters will translate, will interpret into the languages

10    we need.

11            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted

12    to explain and say that there are other topics that the witness mentioned

13    before your decision and that concern the things that I know of, and that

14    is the HVO, whether Mostar was under siege or not, the arrest of

15    Mr. Zelic, and so on and so forth.  So it is not just this.  And the title

16    of the book is literally this and I quote:  "Crimes committed by some

17    members of the BiH army (Muslim units) over Croats in Bosnia and

18    Herzegovina in 1991" -- or, rather, "from 1991 to 1995."

19            The connection between this topic and this gentleman is the fact

20    that the mortal remains of some of these people have still been missing

21    and I would like to ask him about Grabovica and ask him whether mortal

22    remains of the people from Grabovica, how much he knows about that, which

23    locations have been investigated, which locations haven't been

24    investigated, what number are we talking about and so on and so forth.

25                          [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25181

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After deliberations, we

 2    authorise you to ask questions but only related to specific situations.

 3    For instance, with relation to research on Croats who were allegedly

 4    killed by members of the BiH army.  So anything that is in direct

 5    connection to your own work, specific cases without digressing any which

 6    way.  So you just have 30 minutes, so that there is at least 15 minutes

 7    for redirect.

 8            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                          Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  I'd like to ask you the

11    following:  My questions, pursuant to the Court's instructions, will be

12    brief, precise, I hope very clear and to the point.  So would you please

13    answer likewise, yes, no, or I don't know.

14            All the explanations that you had you gave to the Prosecutor, and

15    if Their Honours would like to ask you for additional explanations, they

16    will do so.  You are the witness here and I have been given permission to

17    examine some of the assertions you made during the examination-in-chief.

18            You said that of the 70 persons who were the subject of the

19    exchange, HVO soldiers [indiscernible] in Mostar, the helicopter problem,

20    that there were two or three members of the Croatian army; is that right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   When I say members of the Croatian army, does that mean that they

23    were members of the Croatian army who came to fight within the HVO, or

24    were they members of some Croatian unit in the area, in the territory and

25    were then captured?  Which?  So the question is how do you know that they

Page 25182

 1    were actually members of the Croatian army?

 2       A.   From the report that came in from the prison.  Those two who were

 3    in Eastern Mostar in prison, it's said that they were members of the

 4    Croatian army and not members of the Croatian Defence Council.

 5       Q.   So you only know it on the basis of the report.  You know nothing

 6    more about that.  You don't know which unit they belonged to; right?

 7       A.   I know that one of them was from Rijeka.  I don't know where the

 8    other one was from, and I know their names.

 9       Q.   Was one Igor Kapor?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Do you know that Igor Kapor was a member of the 4th Guard's

12    Brigade with headquarters in Split?

13       A.   I don't know that.

14       Q.   Right.  Fine.  Now do you know that Igor Kapor, travelling to

15    Kiseljak where he was going to be married, was arrested in Jablanica and

16    transferred to Mostar where he was in prison until your agreement was

17    reached?

18       A.   I don't know that, no.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Now, you said that there were body -- the bodies of

20    nine members of the Croatian army there.  Do you also know that from the

21    report, from a report?

22       A.   I know that on the basis of the minutes --

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment --

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exchange --

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you said that

Page 25183

 1    Igor Kapor was about to get married.  Do you know that?  Are you sure?  Do

 2    you have any evidence?

 3            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue.

 5            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We have full evidence of

 6    that, and if need be we can bring the man in to testify.  It was a man who

 7    was going there to get married, and he spent one year after that in prison

 8    in Mostar but he was going to Kiseljak to get married.  That's something

 9    that Mr. Petkovic knows and I think we can all testify first-hand when my

10    turn comes, as you say.  And we can bring the man in too, depending on the

11    amount of time we have.  May I be allowed to continue?  Right.

12       Q.   So these nine men, do you know whether they were -- died or were

13    killed or whatever you want to call it, that there was a unit to which

14    they belonged, or from the Croatian army did they go as volunteers to

15    fight in the HVO because they were from the area just like I was?  Do you

16    know about any of that?  Or do you just base your knowledge on the report

17    you received?

18       A.   They were killed in combat on the 15th of July.

19       Q.   Please, sir, just a moment.  I don't need your story.  My question

20    is simple.  Was it on the basis of the report that you received that you

21    knew that they were Croatian soldiers, or do you know that there was a

22    unit of the Croatian army, or were they members of the HVO who had

23    previously been in the Croatian army?  Which of those?

24       A.   On the basis of the report that was signed by Mr. Jerko Radic, the

25    deputy to Mr. Pusic in the commission for the exchange of prisoners of war

Page 25184

 1    and killed persons, I know that they were seven men, members of the

 2    Croatian army and two members of the Croatian Defence Council.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  That clears that up.  Yesterday, several times you

 4    said that you had problems leaving Sarajevo because it was surrounded,

 5    under siege, and you said that Mostar was under siege as well, in an

 6    encirclement.  Is that what you said?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   What did you say about Mostar?

 9       A.   I said that it was blocked, that Mostar was blocked.

10       Q.   Right.  Now, from the north, the northern exit to Mostar, where

11    was Mostar blocked?  So the links and communication between Mostar and

12    Jablanica, the roads, seeing as you arrived in December, how do you know

13    that Mostar was blocked?  Where was it blocked, from what time was it

14    blocked, and how was it blocked?

15       A.   I know on the basis of my own knowledge and experience that Mostar

16    was blocked, because I could only come to Mostar from Konjic or Jablanica

17    in an APCs, an UNPROFOR APC.  I couldn't get into a car in Mostar and

18    drive to Mostar.

19            Now, the military questions I know nothing about that, so there's

20    no use your wasting time on military matters.  I can't tell you why, how,

21    who, et cetera, who blocked it.  I don't know any of those answers.

22       Q.   So logically, from the fact that UNPROFOR drove you from

23    Sarajevo --

24       A.   No, that's not what I said.

25            JUDGE PRANDLER:  Don't overlap, either of you.

Page 25185

 1            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   If you were to take your own car, get in your car at Jablanica and

 3    drive towards Mostar, not UNPROFOR's vehicle, your vehicle, where would

 4    you come across a blocked road controlled by the HVO?

 5       A.   I think that north of Mostar in a locality called Bijelo Polje,

 6    that it was impossible to pass through that way on the road, through that

 7    road, that you had to take a by-road or go in an APC.  I never took a

 8    by-road.  I either went by UNPROFOR helicopter or an UNPROFOR APC.  Either

 9    via Jablanica or across the hill on the right bank of the Neretva River.

10       Q.   So, right, you don't know who controlled Bijelo Polje.  You know

11    nothing about that area.

12       A.   Mr. Praljak, I did not say that I did not know who controlled

13    Bijelo Polje.

14       Q.   Go on.  Tell me then who controlled Bijelo Polje?

15       A.   That part of the road was simultaneously under fire or under the

16    control of both the Croatian Defence Council and the Serb units which,

17    through the Rujiste pass, across the Rujiste pass above Bijelo Polje

18    shelled the area and controlled that part of the road.

19       Q.   Do you know who was in Bijelo Polje on the right bank of the

20    Neretva -- or, rather, the left bank of the Neretva in Bijelo Polje?  Who

21    controlled that area, physically speaking, in physical terms?

22            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, could I just ask that we clarify the

23    time frame that -- I'm assuming we're talking about late December when the

24    witness first made that trip to Medjugorje, but I'd just like to be clear

25    on the time frame that he's talking about.

Page 25186

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please, the time frame,

 2    Mr. Praljak.

 3            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'm talking exclusively

 4    about the time when the gentleman in December arrived down there.  I

 5    cannot be speaking about any other time.

 6       Q.   Do you know who controlled the left bank in the area of

 7    Bijelo Polje?

 8       A.   I think.

 9       Q.   Please, don't think.  You either know or you don't know.

10       A.   I don't know.

11       Q.   Right.  Thank you.  Now take a look at the following document,

12    3D 0113.  3D 0113.  It's a book.  It's called the "Encyclopaedic

13    Dictionary of the Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina" written by

14    Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic.  Are those names familiar, sir?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Well, you have my document before you in my binder.  The book was

17    printed in Sarajevo.  Can we agree that these two men, judging by their

18    names, are Bosniaks, Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic?

19       A.   I really don't know how you expect me to know that.  I said a

20    moment ago that a man's -- a man who was called Dragan was in fact a

21    Bosniak, which is not logical.  I don't think you find it logical either.

22       Q.   No.

23       A.   Well, Dragan isn't a Bosniak name, generally speaking.

24       Q.   My name is this, and you can say no, no, I don't agree --

25       A.   I don't know.  I don't know the gentlemen, and I don't know what

Page 25187

 1    ethnicity they were or are.

 2       Q.   Witness, the words "I don't know," or, "I don't know what they

 3    are," will suffice.  You can stop there.

 4            Now, look at page 145 of the Croatian -- or, rather, Bosniak text.

 5    And it says:  "The Croatian Defence Council --" we're not going to read

 6    the first part but we'll start with the following sentence.  "The armed

 7    formations of the Croatian Defence Council joined the united armed forces

 8    of Bosnia-Herzegovina making up their integral part."  And in brackets,

 9    it says:  "(Article 1, item 2 of the bill having the force of law on

10    regulations of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Official Gazette of

11    the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 4/92 and 12/92.)"

12            In the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

13    Croatian Defence Council is also one of its components together with the

14    BH army.

15            Now, my question to is as follows, Mr. Lawyer:  Do you know from

16    the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of the war

17    and after the war, too, that the Croatian Defence Council was -- had equal

18    legal status as did the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army according to the

19    provisions published in the Official Gazette of the Republic of

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Is that something you knew about?

21       A.   I know that the forces of the Croatian Defence Council and the HOS

22    forces and some other forces pursuant to this provision were considered to

23    be united -- the united armed forces of the Republic of

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  How long for, I do not know.

25       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

Page 25188

 1            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, do you have an idea when this -- this

 2    publication was published?  Do you have an idea when this was published?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never seen this publication

 4    before, so I have no knowledge about it.  I don't know who the authors

 5    are.  I've never heard of them, and this is the first time that I'm

 6    looking at this passage.

 7            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Maybe Mr. Praljak would volunteer to add this

 8    information.

 9            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel,

10    I would be glad to.  Could somebody take Mr. Prlic to my room to bring in

11    the original copy of the book?  It's to be found in my room, on my

12    suitcase, number 35, and I can continue with my question.

13            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.

14            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Sir, until we're waiting for the book -- while we're waiting for

16    the book, to see the year and date of its publication, let's return for a

17    moment to one other matter, and it is this:  Yesterday, you said that an

18    exchange for these 70 HVO soldiers and 2, as you say, soldiers from the

19    Croatian army had been agreed.  Listen to me carefully and then tell me

20    whether that's what it was.  And then the families of those people who

21    were captured in Vranica and went missing, they, you say, according to

22    you, they set an ultimatum and demanded or conditioned Vranica with the

23    release of these 70 people.  Is that what you said?

24       A.   There wasn't an agreement for an exchange.  That's not what I

25    said.  What I said was this:  That the families from Vranica laid down

Page 25189

 1    conditions that they be freed, these 72 members of the HVO and HV, with

 2    the release of Vranica, because it was believed that the guys from Vranica

 3    were still alive.

 4       Q.   But you don't know whether there was an agreement for an exchange?

 5    Do you or don't you?

 6       A.   At the level of the state commission in which I took part, no, it

 7    was not.

 8       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  At the level of your commission.  You don't

 9    know that there was an agreement for an exchange.

10       A.   There was no agreement.  It had not been agreed.

11       Q.   All right.  Fine.  Now, the helicopters that arrived up there, and

12    we'll see later on according to an agreement to release these 70 persons,

13    then according to your words the families of these 70 people who were

14    waiting for them to arrive blocked the helicopters.  Is that what you know

15    happened?

16       A.   That's right.

17       Q.   Thank you.

18            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Judge Trechsel, Sarajevo

19    2000.  The book, "The Encyclopaedic Dictionary of the Defence of

20    Bosnia-Herzegovina" by Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic was published

21    in Sarajevo in the year 2000.

22       Q.   Right.  Yesterday you said something as follows, and this is a bit

23    of maths now.  When you came down there for talks with the gentlemen, that

24    according to your information the HVO released 3.000 prisoners, regardless

25    of who they were and what type of prisoners they were, and that according

Page 25190

 1    to what you knew then 700 remained.  That's what you said, that you had

 2    information that the HVO held a further 700 persons captive.

 3       A.   I -- on the 23rd and 24th of December I took over some of these

 4    released persons from Gabela and Dretelj, and there were a total of 3.000

 5    of them.

 6       Q.   Right.  Now, afterwards you said that the Croatian side insisted

 7    upon a ratio of 1:1.  Is that what you said?

 8       A.   Throughout the Croatian side insisted on a 1:1 ratio.

 9       Q.   Right.  Now something's wrong with the arithmetic there, the

10    maths.  If somebody, according to what you said, gives 3.000 people over,

11    or prisoners, regardless of their status, and cannot get the 70 from

12    Mostar, then where is this 1:1 ratio?  So what did the Croatian side

13    receive in return for releasing these 3.000 people if, according to what

14    you said, it wasn't even able to obtain the 70 plus the 2 whatever?

15    Explain that to me, please.

16       A.   You've asked me what the Croatian side got in return.  They

17    received a reputation that they had freed over 3.000 civilian prisoners.

18    Among them there were children and elderly.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much.  So this was not 1:1 mathematics.

20    They just gained reputation.  Let's move on.

21            I'm going to ask you this:  You were in Sarajevo.  Do you know

22    that on the 26th of October, 1993, the official government, i.e., the

23    government that managed to get together after a certain while, had a

24    showdown with Topalovic, Musan, also known as Caco, the commander of the

25    10th Mountain Brigade, he was killed in the process.  Are you aware of

Page 25191

 1    that?

 2       A.   I know that the -- the official government in Sarajevo, as you

 3    call it, tried and did carry out the arrest of the commander of one of the

 4    Sarajevo brigades and some of his troops that had stopped recognising the

 5    command of main army staff.  I don't know the date.

 6       Q.   The commander of the 10th Mountain Brigade, Musan Topalovic, also

 7    shown as Caco, was he killed on that occasion?  Do you know or don't you?

 8       A.   He died in the process.

 9       Q.   Okay.  He died.  Stop.  Do you know that -- sir, do you know that

10    nine other men were killed, they were members of the military police, of

11    the official forces of the Sarajevo government who wanted to settle

12    account with this person?  Do you know that?

13       A.   During the arrest of this commander and his renegades is certain

14    number of members of either the military or the civilian police were

15    killed and I don't know their exact number.

16       Q.   Do you know that on that same occasion the commander of the 9th

17    Mountain Brigade, Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo, surrendered and was

18    arrested?

19       A.   I don't know whether there were any other arrests or not.

20       Q.   So you don't know.  Thank you very much.  Do you know that at the

21    beginning of May 1993, Juka Prazina, the commander of an army brigade in

22    Sarajevo, on Mount Igman captured at the forward command post of the Main

23    Staff of the BiH army, i.e., beat Colonel Vehbija Karic and his son Emir?

24    Do you know that?

25       A.   I'm not sure that he was the brigade commander.  And as for the

Page 25192

 1    rest of your question, I can confirm that I know that there was something

 2    with Mr. Vehbija Karic.

 3       Q.   Do you know that --

 4            JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm sorry, Mr. Praljak, to interrupt you but I

 5    would like to recall that certain rules should be maintained here in the

 6    courtroom.  Now your Defence has given 30 minutes, or at least part of the

 7    30 minutes to Madam Nozica, and as far as I know, of course now we have

 8    only 15 minutes to -- to cope with, and in the meantime the Prosecution

 9    should also be given the time for the direct.  So I ask you,

10    Mr. President, to act accordingly.  Thank you.

11            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge

12    Prandler --

13            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I would

14    just like to say for the transcript that Mr. Coric's Defence has given me

15    their 30 minutes and not Mr. Praljak.  Mr. Praljak has kept all of his

16    time.

17            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll speed up things and go

18    very quickly through the rest of my cross-examination.

19       Q.   Sir, how many men, how many Serbs who have been killed in Sarajevo

20    by different units in Kazani and elsewhere at this moment, the Serb side,

21    how many Serbs are they looking for that went missing from Sarajevo?

22       A.   According to the records of applications by the families of these

23    people with the Red Cross, the number is 320 plus-minus 10 per cent.  I'm

24    not sure because at this moment the number is somewhat lower because a

25    number of them had been located, exhumed, identified and handed over to

Page 25193

 1    their families.  But we're talking about a total number throughout the

 2    war, that number is about 320 of the people missing during the war.

 3       Q.   Sir, please listen to my question.  The Serbian state commission,

 4    how many Serbs missing from Sarajevo are still being looked for?  How many

 5    applications are still on your desk with the names, the date of

 6    disappearance that were published in the Serbian Oslobodjenje?  How many

 7    of such requests are on the desk of the Bosnian commission for missing

 8    persons from the Serbian side from Banja Luka?  This is what I'm asking

 9    you.  Give us that number.

10       A.   The situation is not the same.  Are you talking about the total

11    number or the current total number?  This is what I'm asking you, because

12    a significant number of people have been located.

13       Q.   The total number.

14       A.   Throughout the war?

15       Q.   Yes, throughout the war how many people are Serbian side looking

16    for?

17       A.   I don't know.

18       Q.   Thank you very much.  The total number of such requests that refer

19    to the people who have been located so far and not located was that number

20    over 2.000 or less than that?

21       A.   In the perception of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic who was in this

22    courtroom, that number was about 10.000.

23       Q.   I apologise.  You are wasting my time.  You are making a fool out

24    of me.  Answer my question.  Was it more than 2.000 or less than 2.000.

25    Let's leave Biljana Plavsic out of this.

Page 25194

 1       A.   I said that I don't know the number that the Serbian commission is

 2    looking for.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much.  Do you know how many people the Serbian

 4    commission is still looking for of those people who during the war between

 5    1991 and 1995 up to the crime in Srebrenica, how many Serbs that were

 6    killed in the territory of Bratunac and Srebrenica?  Do you know that

 7    number?

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer the question and

 9    then we will call upon Mr. Stringer for redirect because you have used up

10    your time, Mr. Praljak.

11            Please answer the question.  I'm speaking to the witness.  Perhaps

12    you've forgotten the question.

13            Mr. Praljak, would you repeat your question, please?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I don't want to waste any more

15    of your time.  The Serbian commission is looking for less than 200

16    Serbs -- 2.000 Serbs that went missing from the territories of Bratunac

17    and Srebrenica.

18            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   My last question.  Look at the book that you have in front of you.

20    Tell me, how many people are the Croatian side looking for?  I am talking

21    about the people who are still considered missing from the places such as

22    Bugojno.  I would be able to give you more if I had more time, but let's

23    say Bugojno and Konjic, just for the sake of this exercise?  Bugojno is

24    page 35.  And Grabovica.  Let's dwell upon these two.  How many from

25    Grabovica, how many --

Page 25195

 1            MR. STRINGER:  I can -- may I --

 2                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer.

 4            MR. STRINGER:  I could perhaps just suggest -- the General's

 5    asking how many Croats are being looked for this in these two places,

 6    Bugojno, Konjic.  Perhaps without referring to the book, because I don't

 7    think the witness needs to look at the book to do that, if he could just

 8    answer the last question that came from General Praljak, which was

 9    regarding how many people are still considered missing from Bugojno and

10    also Konjic.  Perhaps if the witness could answer that last question, then

11    I could use the time that's left for a brief redirect.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please answer that last

13    question.  How many individuals disappeared or were missing from Bugojno

14    and Konjic, at least to your knowledge.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Pusic sent me a list of a total

16    of 207 Croats that went missing in the whole of the territory that the BiH

17    army controlled throughout the conflict.  I'm talking about 207 civilians

18    and members of the HVO, and that's the list that I received from

19    Mr. Pusic.  And now a very specific answer to your question.

20            I know for Bugojno 21, and those are the people that we discussed

21    yesterday and they're still missing.  I'm not sure about Grabovica but

22    it's between 10 and 15.  And let me tell you this, why not, I believe that

23    those are the bodies of the victims that were partially burnt and some of

24    them thrown into the river Neretva after the crime that was committed over

25    them.

Page 25196

 1            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for the

 2    patience.  Thank you very much for your answers.  I'm sorry I didn't have

 3    more time to put more questions to the witness.

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                          Re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

 6       Q.   Witness, I'd like to ask you to go back to the -- one of the

 7    exhibits that was shown to you during the first cross-examination that my

 8    learned friend Mr. Ibrisimovic conducted.  I don't -- do you have those

 9    with you?

10       A.   [In English] Yeah, I have.

11       Q.   Then this would be Exhibit number P 7985.  7985.  And this relates

12    to a list.  This is a document that you were shown on cross-examination.

13    It's list of, I believe, 121 Heliodrom prisoners who will be released.

14            My question about this document is -- comes from the first

15    sentence of the second paragraph of the -- the letter, the text of the

16    military prosecutor, which I believe is -- it's at the -- it's the

17    beginning of the English translation.  I don't know if it's at the

18    beginning of the original language.  I'm looking for the text from

19    Mladen Jurisic, the military prosecutor.  Do you have that?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now --

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And the first sentence there says and this is the 1st of March,

24    1994:  "These persons are subject to a criminal report because of the

25    crime of having served in an enemy army under Article 119 of the code of

Page 25197

 1    the former -- or the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia."

 2            My question then to you is the enemy army that's being referred to

 3    here, what enemy army is that that these 121 prisoners had been serving

 4    in?

 5       A.   I really don't know what enemy army is in question.  I assume --

 6            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  If you

 7    will allow me, I was warned when I asked for an answer that would have

 8    been deemed to be speculation and I believe that this is exactly what the

 9    Prosecutor is doing at the moment.

10            JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Previous translation continues] ... you're

11    wasting time.  The witness has said he doesn't know.

12            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'm not wasting time because the

13    witness continued with his answer.  I'm just saying that the question

14    called for speculation and for that reason I believe that this should not

15    be allowed because it calls for speculation and the answer is therefore

16    not necessary at all.

17            MR. STRINGER:  I have an answer and I'll move on.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.  May I add an important fact

19    which arises from this document is that this document clearly shows that

20    there were underaged persons on this list, and this is something that I

21    already spoke about in the introduction to my testimony at the beginning

22    of day, yesterday.  Here the military prosecutor is aware of the fact

23    these people were underaged and contrary to the Criminal Code of Bosnia

24    and Herzegovina he embarks upon something that is called exchange for

25    which he was not authorised.

Page 25198

 1            MR. STRINGER:

 2       Q.   Because you were involved in the releases of these prisoners at

 3    this time, do you know - don't speculate - do you know if these

 4    individuals had been members or some of them had been members of the army

 5    of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6       A.   As you can see in the list, these are people from Sovici, a place

 7    that came under the attack of the HVO, and in which the complete

 8    population was either arrested or some of them killed on the spot or

 9    deported.  At this moment I don't know.  I don't have any knowledge.

10       Q.   Okay.  I'll take that as your answer, sir, and I'll move on to

11    what is really just the last topic I wanted to ask you about, and again it

12    relates to a few questions and then some of your testimony during the

13    initial cross-examination by counsel for Mr. Pusic.

14            You made reference to this period right around the Washington

15    Agreement.  The specific question related to the extent to which you or

16    Mr. Pusic had to defer to policies and instructions that came to you above

17    your level.  Do you remember in general that -- that question from

18    Mr. Ibrisimovic?

19       A.   Our instructions were clear.  What was agreed at the political

20    level should have been implemented.

21       Q.   As a result of the question that -- that counsel put to you,

22    you -- you touched on a topic that I wanted to ask you a few more

23    questions about, which was the visit of Mr. Slobodan Lang to the area, and

24    my questions were simply this:  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, as best

25    you recall, when did Mr. Lang come?  When did this visit from Mr. Lang

Page 25199

 1    take place?  Can you say before Washington Agreement, or after Washington

 2    Agreement?

 3       A.   That meeting lasted very long.  Four days with Mr. Lang, and it

 4    took place on the 12th, 13th, 14th April 1994, after the Washington

 5    Agreement.  On the 15th of April, Mr. Lang and myself went in an APC to

 6    Gornji Vakuf, and then by helicopter from Gornji Vakuf to Sarajevo.  This

 7    was an UNPROFOR helicopter.

 8       Q.   And where did those meetings take place?

 9       A.   In the SpaBat in Medjugorje.

10       Q.   What was Mr. Lang's position at the time?

11       A.   At the time, Mr. Lang was introduced to us as the special envoy of

12    Mr. Tudjman for humanitarian issues.

13       Q.   Now, you also mentioned a hunger strike.  Can you tell us whether

14    the hunger strike was taking place during the time of these meetings with

15    Mr. Lang?

16       A.   The hunger strike started perhaps six days prior to Mr. Lang's

17    arrival, and I believe that Mr. Lang arrived in order to resolve that

18    issue, the issue of the release of these prisoners who had entered that

19    strike.  I'm talking about somewhat more than 200 of the last prisoners

20    from the Heliodrom.

21       Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Pusic, I take it, was also present at these

22    meetings?

23       A.   All that time.

24       Q.   Okay.  And just in general terms, can you describe, based on what

25    you saw, the -- what was -- what were the subject of the conversations

Page 25200

 1    between the three of you?

 2       A.   In the shortest outlines this lasted for three days, so I'll try

 3    and be brief.  In his first address to me, Mr. Lang asked for both sides,

 4    the HVO and the BiH army, to release all the remaining prisoners.  I

 5    refused that for a simple reason.  In the prison in Zenica, there were

 6    four convicted felons or people charged with war crimes who could not have

 7    been included in the exchange.  After that Mr. Lang contacted by

 8    Mr. Tudjman by telephone, then ambassador of the Republic of Croatia,

 9    Mr. Sancevic, I contacted Mr. Izetbegovic, and an offer came from Mr. Lang

10    that all the sides released their respective prisoners save for those who

11    were in dispute.  Mr. Pusic refused that kind of agreement, and after that

12    I again spoke with Mr. Lang, and we reached some sort of a compromise and

13    signed an agreement in three or four paragraphs.  It was a written

14    agreement which provided for all the prisoners to be released, that those

15    who were either convicted or charged with war crimes be kept in prisons,

16    that within three days, i.e., up to the 17th of April, 1994, the

17    international committee of the Red Cross should be submitted the decisions

18    of the relevant courts or the indictments issued by the relevant

19    prosecutors' offices for those people who would not be [indiscernible].

20            Mr. Pusic said, once I said that we would keep four men, he said

21    he would keep seven at first, and then he said five, he would keep five,

22    because they were allegedly also either charged or convicted of war

23    crimes.

24            And the fourth bullet point in that agreement was that within 30

25    days an independent international expert group would be established.  Its

Page 25201

 1    task would be to review all the documents pertaining to those people who

 2    were either charged with or convicted of war crimes, and after that this

 3    task group of experts would make a final decision about the destiny of

 4    those people who were either charged with war crimes or convicted already.

 5            MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.  Thank you for your

 6    testimony.

 7            Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much,

 9    Mr. Witness, sir, for having come to the Tribunal, and I would like to

10    wish you a safe journey home.

11            I would like to ask the usher to accompany you out of the

12    courtroom and ask the registrar to move into private session.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14                          [Private session]

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 25202

 1  (redacted)

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 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

13                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day

14                          of November, 2007, at 8.00 a.m.