071127ED

Page 25098

1 Mr. Ibrisimovic.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like to say good afternoon to Mr. Masovic

5 because we know each other from some other situations and we happen to be

6 in the courtroom.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Ibrisimovic speak into his

8 microphone. He's a long way away from his microphone and we can't hear

9 him very well. Thank you.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can you put the microphone closer to your mouth.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The first thing that I wanted to ask you, and you spoke about this

13 yesterday, and I read this in an interview of yours perhaps a month or two

14 ago that Bosnia-Herzegovina still has a lot of problems with the missing

15 persons, and you even mentioned a figure of some 12.000 people; is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes, that is right. Perhaps the figure is a little smaller

18 because some of those people have been found but not identified, so that

19 their names are still on the list of missing persons or in fact they have

20 been found but not identified.

21 Q. But it is a large number, a vast number, and that question, the

22 question of missing persons and the large number, means that there are

23 many grave sites that have not been discovered yet, I would say?

24 A. On the basis of my experience, and I have had many years of

25 experience, 15 years, in fact, we're still looking for 180 to 200 mass

Page 25099

1 graves, graves with five or more victims in them, and probably several

2 hundred other individual grave sites.

3 Do you want me to repeat the answer?

4 Q. No. I think it's been recorded.

5 The second thing that I wanted to ask you, and I talked to

6 Mr. Pusic about this, when I read your statement -- or statements, rather,

7 I think there were three of them, and they related to what you know about

8 Mr. Pusic and what I heard you say yesterday in court, was there a

9 conflict of any kind between Mr. Pusic and you apart from the work you did

10 in the commissions and so on?

11 A. We represented, during a period of time, two opposing sides.

12 There were no personal conflicts, but we were on two different sides as

13 negotiators, and after 1997, Mr. Pusic was chosen to be the first chief of

14 the federal commission for missing persons, and I was appointed his deputy

15 for the first three months, and then we continued to rotate, and one of us

16 would be the chairman or vice-chairman of the federal commission. We

17 would rotate until Mr. Pusic was replaced.

18 Q. Well, I'm happy to hear that I was wrong in the impression I

19 gained, because Mr. Pusic said your cooperation with him was mostly proper

20 and correct?

21 A. Within the frameworks of the negotiations that took place, I do

22 believe that he tried to represent the interests of the party and the side

23 that he represented, just as I tried to represent the interests of my side

24 and the government in Sarajevo.

25 Q. I'd like now to go back to a question that was discussed yesterday

Page 25100

1 that you testified, in fact, yesterday, the question of exhumations, and

2 you said how you arrived at information, i.e., that you went on the site

3 and so on?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Excuse me,

5 Mr. Ibrisimovic.

6 You said something, Witness, and the counsel just glassed over it.

7 It might be relevant. You said in 1997 Mr. Pusic was president of the

8 federal commission and you yourself were his deputy, you said, and you

9 added that he was dismissed. Why was he dismissed, and who did so?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yesterday we touched upon that

11 question, and I can confirm that in July 1997, by decision of the

12 government of the federation Mr. Pusic was appointed the first presiding

13 person, chairman, of the federal commission for missing persons, and I was

14 appointed the vice-chairman. The decision had another provision which

15 stated that the two of us would take turns in these two posts, the posts

16 of chairman and vice-chairman, and that we would rotate every three

17 months, and that's what happened. We took over from each other until

18 Mr. Pusic was replaced, relieved of his duties in another commission which

19 was called the commission for de-mining, which was at a state level of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say both the Bosnian and Herzegovinian

21 entities, but that decision about his replacement from the commission for

22 de-mining automatically meant that he could no longer perform any other

23 public offices in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that Mr. Pusic, to all intents

24 and purposes, pursuant to that decision and being replaced in the

25 commission for de-mining, he lost his post in the commission, the federal

Page 25101

1 commission for missing persons.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why? Why was he replaced? Was

3 there a reason and, if so, what was it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it was only Mr. Pusic

5 who was replaced. I think the decision taken by the High Representative

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina comprised all three members of the commission for

7 de-mining and that there was some talk of corruption, but I'm only telling

8 you what I read in the media, not on the basis of any personal information

9 that I had or any contacts with the gentleman. So all three members for

10 the commission for de-mining were replaced from that post for reasons of

11 corruption.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The decision was one in 2002, and it is true that they were all

14 replaced. However, they were rehabilitated by 2004, and there were no

15 legal proceedings taken against Mr. Pusic in the matter of corruption.

16 A. Well, I said what the media wrote about, what I read about in the

17 papers and what I learnt through the media. That's what I said, how the

18 media presented it, that they were replaced. Now, what happened later on,

19 whether they were rehabilitated or not, I really don't know. Mr. Pusic

20 did not return to the commission ever again, the commission for missing

21 persons.

22 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to go back to a topic that you discussed

23 with my learned friend yesterday, and that is the question of exhumation,

24 and you've already described to us how the exhumations came about, in what

25 way they were carried out. And we're going to use some documents now in

Page 25102

1 that regard, so might the witness be provided with some documents.

2 You told us yesterday that the number 16 was mentioned for the

3 first time at the meeting that was held in Geneva, and as I understand it,

4 it was an informal discussion between you and Mr. Pusic. It wasn't a

5 formal meeting?

6 A. No, it wasn't it happened on the 20 of July during the excursion

7 around Lake Geneva and to the town of Montreux.

8 Q. Never before that or after that did Mr. Pusic mention this number,

9 this number 16?

10 A. Yes that's right.

11 Q. I took a look at your statements, you have them in front of you,

12 but I don't think there's any need to look at them. When you gave a

13 statement to the Prosecution, I don't think you mentioned the figure of

14 16. There was -- the figure of 12 and 13 and you explained that to us

15 yesterday now would you take a look at the document, please, the first

16 document. It's 6D 00758.

17 A. I need some assistance here because I can't find my way in these

18 numbers. Can you repeat the number?

19 Q. 6D 00758 is the number. And it's a document towards the end of

20 the binder. That's where you'll find it. It is a letter, the main

21 cantonal prosecutor's office in Mostar, Mr. Mehmed Basic. Mehmed Basic?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. He is informing -- yes, kindly make pauses between question and

24 answer. Thank you. He is informing through the Federal Ministry of

25 Justice in Sarajevo the Prosecution about what was done up until the 21st

Page 25103

1 of September, 2007; right?

2 A. That's what it says in the document.

3 Q. It is the report on exhumation, the photo -- photographs, photo

4 documents, the DNA results, and then finally he says, "As for other

5 information requested by the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, please

6 note that this prosecutor's office cannot provide you with that

7 information at this moment because of the ongoing investigations in the

8 matter," which mean the investigation had not been completed yet.

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Now, we can go back to a document you saw led the number is

11 P 100322. It's a Prosecution document.

12 A. I've got it.

13 Q. This is a record on exhumation, and any exhumation is a very

14 formal, very strict job which requires a procedure.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The people present were a prosecutor and an anthropologist of the

17 international commission for missing.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sanja Mulac on behalf of the commission for missing persons?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The on-site investigation continued on the following day and the

22 number is P 100323. That's the number of document, P 100323.

23 On that day you were present as well?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. I suppose the reason was that you had received information that

Page 25104

1 these could be the remains of the BiH army members and that's why you

2 found yourself in Mostar on that day?

3 A. Yes. My colleagues from Republika Srpska who were there together

4 with the prosecutor's office from Trebinje and started the exhumation, and

5 Mrs. Mulac who was an observer observing the exhumation noticed some parts

6 of uniforms, trousers and camouflage uniforms that the members of the BiH

7 army wore during the conflict. That was the first time where a suspicion

8 arose that those skeletons might belong to the Vranica building. However,

9 at that moment on the 17 of May, we still didn't know that for a fact. On

10 the 18th of May, and this document pertains to the 18th of May when I was

11 there, on the 18th of May there were some very well-founded indicia that

12 the bodies were of the prisoners from Vranica. On the arm of one of the

13 victims we discovered a Seiko 50 watch with the date indicated on it as

14 Thursday 14th. The on-site inspection revealed that Thursday the 14th was

15 the month of May, 1993. Since this group was imprisoned on the 10th of

16 May, this led us to assume that those people might hail from Vranica.

17 However, at that moment we could not be certain of that.

18 Q. My questions were somewhat different. Mr. Mehmedic Nijaz, the

19 Prosecutor was also present from Mostar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The prosecutor from Trebinje was there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The anthropologist of the international commission for missing

24 persons?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25105

1 Q. Zeljko Karan, the pathologist from Banja Luka?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On the second page of this document the Prosecutor issues an order

4 for these remains to be transferred to the city cemetery in Mostar where

5 the laboratory findings will show how many bodies were located in the mass

6 grave.

7 A. Yes, and carry out the identification.

8 Q. And here we have a sentence by the Prosecutor who says during the

9 exhumation of skeletal remains of human origin it was very difficult to

10 follow the continuity of the bodies because the skeletal remains were

11 rather mixed up. Was that the case?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. On the last page of this document the forensic pathologist,

14 Dr. Karan, says that this was a primary grave, and according to the

15 exhumed remains, it could be concluded that the number of bodies was at

16 least 20.

17 A. Although this has been recorded in that way, at my question Dr.

18 Karan told me that there were at least 24 different victims in that grave.

19 And then I asked him how did he conclude that, because I had inspected

20 the skeletal remains during the exhumation and I arrived at a conclusion

21 that the figure was a bit lower. He told me that there were 24 right

22 femurs, i.e., 24 upper leg bones. At that moment, I had my reservations

23 about that, and on that same day when we took the remains over and when

24 they were transported to the morgue in Stotina, we counted the bones of

25 arms and legs, and we arrived at a conclusion that a maximum number of

Page 25106

1 victims, judging by the number of the bones of the extremities, that there

2 were no more than 16 victims altogether.

3 Q. But I can't see it in the record.

4 A. No. This was not recorded on site. This is a record by our

5 colleagues from Republika Srpska, i.e., the district prosecutor from

6 Trebinje. The record on exhumation, as far as I know, was not drafted by

7 the cantonal prosecutor from Mostar because the exhumation had been

8 ordered and carried out by the prosecutor from Trebinje. As for the rest,

9 the issue of the reassociation of the mortal remains from the 24 body bags

10 that had been transported from the site, the question of the autopsy and

11 final identification of the victims would be carried out pursuant to the

12 order of the cantonal prosecutor in Mostar.

13 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor did not show you the findings on the

14 anthropologist. This finding does not mention the number of 16 victims,

15 does it?

16 A. What is that?

17 Q. Dr. Eva Klanovska [as interpreted] doesn't say that the number of

18 victims is 16.

19 A. What findings are you referring to?

20 Q. That is the findings of the institute -- or, rather, in

21 international commission for missing persons which was signed by Dr. Eva

22 Konovski -- Elvira Klanovska.

23 A. Do I have it in my file?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Did you tell me the number?

Page 25107

1 Q. 10331 is the number.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you

3 to make breaks between questions and answers. Thank you.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I understand that this is not the final findings, that this is the

6 preliminary findings based on the DNA analysis leading to the

7 reassociation or matching of the body parts, but this findings does not

8 mention the number of 16 bodies. The number 16 is not mentioned.

9 A. Yes, that's correct. This anthropological findings on

10 reassociation does not show that the number of victims was 16.

11 Q. You were -- you mentioned yesterday that the grave could even be a

12 secondary grave.

13 A. I'm convinced that it was a secondary grave, because there were

14 some parts of the skeletal remains missing. None of the 16 victims was

15 complete. Each and every one of them is missing a part of the skeleton.

16 Q. I appreciate that opinion. You have a lot of experience. I know

17 that personally, but when it comes to such things and if we're talking

18 about the secondary grave, then the reassociation and matching of the

19 skeletal remains is very difficult, and it's very difficult to establish

20 the exact number of victims.

21 A. Yes, you're right, but the reassociation and the DNA analysis that

22 have been carried out show clearly that some skeletal parts are missing,

23 i.e., they were missing from the grave and they're missing in the morgue.

24 For example, parts of the skull are missing. They're simply not there.

25 Q. What I was saying is that the procedure that has been carried so

Page 25108

1 far points to the fact that there were 15 victims, and we don't have any

2 official data confirming the number of 16.

3 A. Yes. We have 15 names of the victims, and we have a 16th DNA

4 analysis which does not match with the blood of any family that reported a

5 missing relative. In the laboratory we have confirmation that there were

6 16 DNA samples that belonged to 16 different persons, 15 of which have

7 been identified, and the 16th person has not been identified.

8 Q. Maybe we're talking about at cross-purposes. Anthropology is a

9 very sophisticated science and requires a lot of knowledge, and this

10 anthropological findings does not confirm that there were 16 bodies in

11 that grave.

12 A. Not in this findings, but if you're asking me as the head of the

13 commission, what I know about this, I can confirm to you that we're

14 talking about a total of 16 victims. Maybe it should be clarified why the

15 reassociation is done in the first place. The reassociation is carried

16 out in order to -- before the DNA analysis, in order to send as few

17 skeletal samples as possible to the laboratory. In this particular case,

18 instead of 16 samples that would have been normal to send if we had had 16

19 compact victims from a primary grave, for example, instead of sending 16

20 teeth from the 16 victims, we had to send 90 different specimen, 90

21 different samples. So if we're talking about 16 victims, on average it

22 would be five or six samples per victim.

23 This is what we did, because the skeletal remains were mixed up.

24 The victims skulls had been fractured. The lower jaws had been separated

25 from the upper part of the skull, and the anthropological analysis could

Page 25109

1 not match the lower jaws with the bodies.

2 If you are missing only two vertebrae in the spine, you -- you

3 lose the continuity of the body and that's why you have to send for a DNA

4 analysis two parts of the body, the upper part and the lower part. That's

5 why the anthropological reassociation is done first, and the

6 anthropologist, based on his expert knowledge, can determine which two

7 legs belonged to one body. And then we don't send the samples from both

8 those legs. We do not destroy the skeletal material. We usually send

9 only one leg sample, usually the right leg sample. And when we obtain the

10 DNA analysis from that leg then we know which leg is the left leg from the

11 same body because anthropologically they are the same and the

12 anthropology -- anthropologist can determine that.

13 Q. I was suggesting to you that in such sensitive methods an error is

14 something that happens. Let me give you an educational example. A

15 gentleman whom we know, a professor who died, when the grave was opened he

16 determined that there were five skeletal remains, and later on it was

17 determined that there were actually six bodies in question.

18 A. Yes. This is a good example. I'm glad you mentioned it.

19 Dr. Klanovska during the exhumation established that there were six

20 victims in question which the local forensic expert, unfortunately, did

21 not accept, and later on through DNA analysis it was confirmed that the

22 number was actually six.

23 Q. [No interpretation]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel come closer to the microphone

25 and would the counsel and would the witness and counsel please note

Page 25110

1 overlap.

2 A. Yes, but you said it, he was a pathologist, a forensic

3 pathologist. The reassociation is not an issue for forensic pathologists

4 but for forensic anthropologists. Those are the persons that share the

5 same qualifications with Dr. Klanovska.

6 Q. What I'm trying to say is when grave is opened, especially if the

7 secondary grave is in question, an error is not excluded.

8 A. When a secondary grave is opened, the experts may make a mistake,

9 and I said it in the introduction to my testimony. Dr. Karan who was in

10 charge of this exhumation said and you can see it in the record, he said

11 20 bodies at least. To me he said 24 bodies, Dr. Klanovska and the DNA

12 confirmed that the number was actually 16. There were 16 bodies.

13 Q. We have agreed that that number does not figure in Dr. Klanovska's

14 findings, so we can move on to another topic.

15 The talks between you and Mr. Pusic about Vranica, I know that

16 Vranica was something that was something that -- for which there was a lot

17 of pressure, but there were some other issues, Bugojno, and other things,

18 that also burdened your relationship.

19 A. Yes. I would say that our relationship was burdened but not so

20 much our relationship but the negotiations because of the complexity of

21 the matter, because of the interdependence of these cases and the whole

22 situation resulted in a stalemate, and even those things that could have

23 been solved because of the circumstances and the sensitivity of these

24 cases, and yesterday I spoke about the case -- cases of Vranica and

25 Bugojno, two very similar cases on two different sides. In the Vranica

Page 25111

1 case this was aired on TV, and in the Bugojno case the victims were

2 registered by the International Red Cross, and they had sent messages to

3 their families that they were alive, that they were healthy, and after

4 that these people were taken away and probably killed, because they have

5 been missing for 14 years now. There are some testimonies about their

6 killings and --

7 Q. What I'm saying is that there was a lot of pressure both on you

8 and Mr. Pusic.

9 A. In -- this was one of the cases of the many cases that for a

10 number of years --

11 JUDGE PRANDLER: May I ask Mr. Ibrisimovic and also you, Witness,

12 that you have to really make some pause and break between your questions

13 and answers. It was also asked by the president a few minutes ago, and it

14 is our constant problem, and not only ours but mainly the interpreters,

15 that especially when you are speaking your mother tongue, then of course

16 you are not going to take care of the speed of your talking, and please do

17 so, and be so kind to really helping the interpreters in this way. Thank

18 you.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll do our best to

20 make everybody's work easier.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try and follow the screen, the

22 display on the screen, and then wait until I see it appearing on the

23 screen and then give my answer.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25112

1 Q. I'm going to repeat a question, because I don't think the answer

2 was recorded. I asked you before Geneva and after Geneva, when you talked

3 to Mr. Pusic about Vranica, the number 16 was never mentioned. It was

4 always 12 or 13 for missing persons; is that right? You told me that that

5 was so; right?

6 A. Yes, that is correct. Mostly the figures mentioned were 13 people

7 from Vranica, that is before Geneva and after Geneva.

8 Q. If you look at your file then you'll find document 2 -- 6D 00749.

9 If you look at page 3, you'll see it's a letter from Mr. Pusic requesting

10 from the security services of Mostar to provide him with information with

11 respect to the fate of the persons missing, both Croats and Bosniaks, who

12 went missing during the conflict. And the date is the 3rd of August,

13 1995. So that's towards the end of the war.

14 A. I have two documents under that same number.

15 Q. It's a three-page document, and if you look at the third page.

16 A. There's a different date on the third page. It says the 28th of

17 July, 1995, and they're different documents in fact.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. The date here is the 28th of July, 1995, where Mr. Pusic is

21 writing to the SIS in Mostar, and the date, the 3rd of August, is the

22 reply to the request made by Mr. Pusic with respect to the missing

23 soldiers.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25113

1 Q. The answer refers to Mr. Pusic's letter.

2 A. I'm afraid that something's missing here, that I'm missing the

3 first page of this document, because these three pieces of paper are quite

4 obviously not the total document in the file.

5 Q. Well, let's take it in chronological order. Let's look at the

6 first document dated the 28th of July, 1995. Let's look at that first.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. It is a letter from Mr. Pusic to the Mostar security service;

9 right?

10 A. That's right, yes.

11 Q. Now, when we have that, then we have a letter from the security

12 and information service of Mostar of the 3rd of August, which refers to

13 the letter sent by Mr. Pusic.

14 All I want to say is that Mr. Pusic raised this issue, the issue

15 of the missing soldiers, after the conflicts which were over in 1994. So

16 the question of the soldiers missing from Vranica, and Mr. Pusic wrote

17 about this, that was 10 or 11 years ago, of course, and he asked for more

18 information.

19 A. It doesn't say explicitly here that they are searching for members

20 of the army from Vranica. That's the first point. Secondly, in my

21 opinion this document doesn't follow any logic. If Mr. Pusic, in July

22 1995, speaks about an exchange of the bodies of those who were killed,

23 then there's something amiss there, something that's not in order, because

24 in Washington we reached an agreement to release all the prisoners and to

25 hand over the bodies of those people who had been killed, and from

Page 25114

1 mid-1994 or thereabouts there were no more exchanges of dead bodies

2 between the BH army and the HVO, Croatian Defence Council. So I don't

3 know why in July 1995 he would be referring to exchanges, because at that

4 time the exchange of either living persons or dead persons just took place

5 between the BH army and the Serb side, and the Croatian Defence Council

6 and the Serb side. But there was no mutual exchange as far as I can

7 remember.

8 Q. Well, perhaps it wasn't put in the best way, but what I want to

9 say is that he did raise the issue, and he requested information about

10 missing persons, and at that time members from the -- the army members

11 from the Vranica building were considered missing.

12 A. Yes, you're right. They were considered missing until the 18th of

13 May or a little after the 18th of May when the first DNA results arrived.

14 Q. Thank you. Now let's go back to something you were talking about

15 yesterday. The Presiding Judge asked you a question. I know that in

16 August 1992 you became a member of the commission, and it was called the

17 State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War at the time.

18 Now, would you have a look at 6D 00798, please. That's another

19 document in your file.

20 A. All I have is 00757. That's the last document in my binder.

21 Q. 6D 708. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I meant to say 708. That's

22 the last number.

23 The president of the commission was the Deputy Justice Minister,

24 Mr. Bibic; is that right?

25 A. That's right, but there's a mistake in the translation. It says

Page 25115

1 Bibic. It should be Muhibic. That's the name.

2 Q. In Article 7 of this decision on the establishment of the

3 commission the mandate of the commission is set out, its terms of

4 reference. And you testified about that yesterday, did you not?

5 A. That's right. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Now take a look at the next document, P 3191. P 3191. Have you

7 found it?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. It is a decision dated the 5th of July, 1993, where Mr. Pusic is

10 being appointed the head of the service for the exchange of prisoners and

11 other persons, and under that we have the decision on the establishment of

12 the service, and in Article 2 its mandate, the is service's mandate. And

13 if you compare the mandate of the state commission from the BH government

14 decision and Article 2 of this decision, then that mandate is more or less

15 the same, is it not?

16 A. I think that the mandate of the state commission was a little

17 broader in scope. So the state commission for the exchange of prisoners

18 of war and persons deprived of liberty, records of those killed, wounded,

19 and missing. That's the additional mandate which is broader and is set

20 out in the title. It is a broader mandate than this decision that you're

21 pointing to. And the state commission in, its composition, had three

22 subcommissions. One was for the exchange of POWs. One was for records of

23 those missing, and a third one was for the records of those dead and

24 wounded.

25 Q. Well, I just wanted to show you that the HVO had a similar

Page 25116

1 department or service dealing with these questions. Now, which had

2 broader authority doesn't matter. I just wanted to show that this service

3 existed and that it dealt with those matters. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, with the proviso that the state commission was established in

5 April, the month of April.

6 Q. This is a July 1992 decision. Perhaps it was established earlier

7 or taken earlier, but it was published in July 1992.

8 The state commission on the basis of this was formed in July 1992.

9 The decision was made public in the Official Gazette. It might have been

10 actually established earlier on, but the prime minister signed the

11 decision in 1992 and that's when it was made public. And you became a

12 member in August 1992, did you not?

13 A. Yes, that is right, but within the Ministry of Defence I think the

14 then minister of defence, which was Mr. Jerko Doko, already in April had

15 established a commission for exchanges, which was functioning in April.

16 And then at the level of the BH government a decision was taken in July to

17 establish a state commission with the full title that it had and that we

18 mentioned a moment ago.

19 Q. You told us yesterday that you met Mr. Pusic for the first time on

20 the 29th of December, 1993; is that right?

21 A. As far as I remember, I contacted another member, had contacts

22 with another member, or, rather, Mr. Pusic's deputy, and that was on the

23 9th of November, 1993, in Jablanica and Konjic where we reached an

24 agreement to release persons.

25 Q. You said that you had information that the exchange took place at

Page 25117

1 a local level and that it functioned fairly well, that there was no need

2 for you to intervene.

3 A. There were two reasons for which I did not intervene. One was

4 that the exchanges functioned to all intents and purposes not only at the

5 level of Herzegovina but Vitez, Travnik, Busovaca, Kiseljak. That is to

6 say -- and Zenica in Central Bosnia, that is, and the other reason, as I

7 said, was about the blockades, that Sarajevo was under siege three -- for

8 three and a half years, and after the conflict broke out between the BH

9 army and the Croatian Defence Council there was a blockade and siege of

10 Mostar as well.

11 Q. So you received reports from time to time, but there were no

12 problems, no major problems with respect to the exchanges between the HVO

13 and these local commissions?

14 A. Well, that's right. But I'd like to say that they were exchanges

15 of a lesser intensity and -- involving fewer people. So lower-level

16 exchanges. Mostly they were a number of wounded from both sides, members

17 of the two sides' armies, or the exchange of bodies of people who had been

18 killed in combat, and also in part POW exchanges.

19 Q. Now, in your statement you say -- in your statement I came across

20 a section where you said that Dziho Orucevic, Juso Jeli [as interpreted]

21 were involved in all that, Dziho, Zlatan Buljko, et cetera. People who

22 dealt with this, were involved in this during that period would be better

23 placed to talk about it, and those people who negotiated with Mr. Pusic

24 during that period of time.

25 A. Yes, with the exception of Mr. Zlatan Buljko. I don't think I

Page 25118

1 know him, judging by his first and last name. And even if he did attend

2 some of the negotiations that I attended, it might have been just once.

3 But as I say, the name does not sound familiar. And apart from the other

4 people you mentioned, I remember Mr. Ali Alikadic when it comes to

5 Herzegovina, and in the case of Central Bosnia I -- on the BH army side,

6 the negotiations were conducted by Samir Sefer from Travnik, and

7 Mrs. Bolic, Emira Bolic [phoen] from Zenica, as well as Mr. Causevic,

8 Spaho Causevic, the head of the district commission for the exchange of

9 POWs for Zenica.

10 Q. Well, I mentioned Mr. Buljko's name because he testified here, and

11 he said that he attended some negotiations with Mr. Pusic, but it doesn't

12 matter. We won't go into that if you say you don't know him.

13 Now, the relationship between the state commission and the other

14 commissions that existed on the ground, the army commissions, was there a

15 relationship of subordination? Was one -- were some superior, others

16 subordinate? Were they duty-bound to report back and, if so, to whom?

17 Can you tell us about that?

18 A. There were two periods in the development of the state commission,

19 two stages. After the formation of the district as a -- or districts as

20 administrative units in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm not sure when that

21 was, the regional commissions were formed in Tuzla, Mostar, Bihac, and in

22 Zenica, too, and those regional commissions were responsible to the state

23 commission -- or, rather, to the president of the state commission, and

24 they had the duty when negotiating with the opposing side or sides that if

25 they reached an agreement for an exchange of some kind they would have to

Page 25119

1 request permission from the president of the state commission, who would

2 then approve it or not, but mostly he approved it. There were just

3 situations that were challenged when -- if they were -- if -- if they

4 concerned persons who were in prison under the government's control and

5 against whom legal proceedings had been initiated. So those persons were

6 not included in the exchange process before the Presidency as the head of

7 state made the decision to pardon them if they had been found guilty or

8 unless an amnesty was decided.

9 I think in March 1993, attached to the corps of the BH army

10 commissions were established to take care of the prisoners of war, and for

11 a time those acted autonomously, independently. And let me tell you that

12 we for a time had some disagreements with those commissions, because they

13 did not respect the requests of the state commission for exchanging

14 prisoners of war. Later on in the contacts we had, that is to say the

15 state commissions relationships and contacts with the Ministry of Defence

16 and with the General Staff of the BH army, an agreement was reached

17 whereby those commissions, too, were duty-bound to act pursuant to the

18 state commission's instructions for the exchange of prisoners of war.

19 Q. At that moment those military commission were not under the

20 umbrella of the government commission?

21 A. They were never formally part of the state commission. They were

22 part of the respective corps of the BiH army, and they were led by the

23 military personnel, and they were responsible to the corps commanders.

24 I'm talking about the commissions that took care of the POWs that were

25 established as of March 1993.

Page 25120

1 Q. But I believe these commissions had a mandate to somehow

2 participate in the exchanges.

3 A. Yes. They joined us. Their representatives would later on be

4 sent to the negotiations and they were present at all the negotiations

5 where I was and where negotiations were taking place.

6 Q. I found it in some reports that your counterpart in Central Bosnia

7 was Nikica Petrovic; is that correct? I'm talking about Vitez and

8 Srednja Bosna [as interpreted] and in Kiseljak it was Mr. Ivo Miro Jovic;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Until recently he was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Just for the transcript, the correct name is Ivo Miro Jovic. And

15 the area is Kiseljak. This has not been recorded.

16 Yesterday you testified under oath and you spoke about those

17 meetings and negotiations with Mr. Pusic. I assume, I was never a

18 negotiator in such a situation, when you come for negotiations you have a

19 programme you have a mandate you have a goal that you want to achieve; is

20 that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Every negotiator by the logic of things want -- wants to achieve a

23 maximum, to get as much as they can out of those negotiations?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. However, the negotiations were not only in the domain of

Page 25121

1 Mr. Masovic and Mr. Pusic. Things would sometimes be resolved at levels

2 higher than you. You had to follow somebody's instructions. Wouldn't

3 that be correct?

4 A. What do you mean when you say above us?

5 Q. Sometimes things would happen that you did not have any influence

6 on. You could not influence them, either you or Mr. Pusic, when it came

7 to your negotiations.

8 A. Please could you more precise? What exactly do you have in mind

9 when you ask me that?

10 Q. Let me try and do that. When it comes to negotiations, this would

11 be preceded by political negotiations at a high political level or a

12 military level. Mr. Masovic and Mr. Pusic were there to implement things

13 that had been agreed on prior to your negotiations. Wouldn't that be

14 correct? You mentioned the occasion when Mr. Silajdzic came to Konjic and

15 Jablanica. Mr. Komsic, a member of the Presidency, said it was a high --

16 a delegation at a very high level.

17 A. Let us say that there were two periods, the period leading up to

18 the Washington Agreement, i.e., the period leading up to the political

19 negotiations which would result in the Washington Agreement. During that

20 period of time, the commissions for exchanges worked in keeping with their

21 mandates without any political influences or interference. Once the

22 bilateral decision was reached on the matters between the army and the HVO

23 to be normalised, from then on all negotiations, including the

24 negotiations on POWs would take place at a political level, which was the

25 highest political level, which included the president of

Page 25122

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, i.e., the head of the Presidency of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic, the president of the Republic of Croatia,

3 Mr. Tudjman, and later on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Silajdzic

4 and Granic respectively, and Mr. Pusic and myself were only duty bound

5 with the assistance of the International Committee of the Red Cross and

6 other international organisations that were involved in the program of

7 missing persons to carry out the political agreements and implement them.

8 Q. This is what I was saying. If the Washington Agreement was signed

9 and it was and we all know who signed it, neither Mr. Masovic nor

10 Mr. Pusic could have any say in the implementation of this agreement. It

11 would have been carried out with or without you. Isn't that correct?

12 A. One thing is certain. In order to implement the Washington

13 Sporzum with respect to the missing persons and prisoners of war, it would

14 have been carried out with or without -- without the two of us. The two

15 of us could have a say in the speed with which that agreement was carried

16 out, and we did have influence on that. When it comes to Mr. Pusic, I

17 must say that this influence was negative, unfortunately. In the

18 implementation of the agreement, some things were -- were taking a lot of

19 time, much too longer than necessary when this came to the liberation of

20 prisoners. This took place only two months after the signing of the

21 Washington Agreement. The last prisoners were released in the second half

22 of April, i.e., one number of prisoners were kept even after that. There

23 were even some new arrests even after the Washington Agreement was signed.

24 Some prisoners, i.e., some detainees, since there were no more fighting

25 between the HVO and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, some people were

Page 25123

1 arrested when they were trying to do some shopping in Kiseljak, and then

2 after the Washington Agreement, they were also subject of our

3 negotiations.

4 I must say that at one point in time, and that was on the 12th of

5 April or maybe the 13th of April, 1994, because of the problems of

6 missing, i.e., because of the problems of prisoners, the Washington

7 Agreement was at a stake at that time, namely Mr. Pusic refused to release

8 all prisoners as had been agreed as per Washington Agreement, and at that

9 moment the President of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Tudjman, sent to

10 Medjugorje his representative for humanitarian issues, Mr. Slobodan Lang,

11 who had a mission to humour Mr. Pusic and make him agree to the final

12 release of all prisoners.

13 I witnessed of some very hard talks between Mr. Lang and

14 Mr. Pusic. At that point Mr. Lang was even speaking about a possible

15 removal from Mr. Pusic -- of Mr. Pusic from the position because of his

16 refusal to implement the agreement and release all the prisoners. At that

17 point, I proposed a compromise, which was later on translated into a

18 written agreement between the two of us, and finally that agreement was

19 implemented.

20 Q. In any case that part of the Washington Agreement was implemented?

21 A. Yes, with minor delays, but if you look at that situation from the

22 perspective of a person who had spent months in camps and in prison, then

23 the delay would be rather long.

24 In Heliodrom, for example, in the Heliodrom camp, the detainees

25 put up a strike about the time when Mr. Lang arrived. I know that

Page 25124

1 Mr. Lang visited the prisoners. They were on a hunger strike, and he

2 tried to persuade them to call off the hunger strike, because some sort of

3 agreement on their release would eventually be achieved. He even said

4 that if the detainees continued with their hunger strike that the HVO had

5 a possibility to start force-feeding them in keeping with the provisions

6 on, I think, the Tokyo declaration. I believe that the Tokyo declaration

7 came into play, and according to that declaration from the moment when the

8 detainees could no longer think rationally and when their health is at

9 stake those who kept them detained had every right to start force-feeding

10 them by giving them infusions and this could be done against their own

11 will.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please. Microphone

13 for the counsel.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Lang did come to Mostar but not because of Mr. Pusic, but

16 because Mr. Tudjman was one of the signatories of the agreement together

17 with Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Silajdzic, and Mr. Granic. And I'm putting it

18 to you that Mr. Tudjman probably had never heard of Mr. Pusic, but let's

19 leave that aside for the time being.

20 Can we now look at another document, which is P 7851.

21 This is a report by Mr. Pusic. Did you find it, Mr. Masovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your name is mentioned in here. This is a report on a meeting

24 that took place on the 12th of January, 1994, and you can see a short

25 report about the negotiations, and it says that within the shortest

Page 25125

1 possible time all the prisoners should be released according to the

2 all-for-all principle.

3 A. Before I give you an answer, it says here 12th of January, and you

4 said 12th February, which is correct. 12th February is correct. The

5 document bears a very strange date, as if it had been drafted on the 12th

6 of January, 1994, a month prior to the negotiations. I suppose this is a

7 typo in the document. I can confirm that the meeting took place on the

8 12th of February, 1994, and the participants were Mr. Pusic and myself,

9 and this took place on the premises of the Spanish Battalion in

10 Medjugorje. And I can also confirm that what it says here in the report

11 reflects the totality of the essence of what we had agreed, with the

12 exception of the last paragraph in which Mr. Pusic, in his report, says

13 that we would meet again in Jablanica on the 17th of February, 1994, where

14 we were to continue negotiations with respect to Bugojno and other

15 detention facilities.

16 I can only assume why Mr. Pusic added that last paragraph. I

17 suppose this had to do with the possible pressure on the part of the

18 Croatian families in Bugojno because of the answer to the destiny of the

19 21 prisoners who had been arrested in Bugojno. In other words, the last

20 paragraph was never discussed on the 12th of February, and this is not

21 what we agreed, and this is not what is indicated in the official

22 statement that was signed by myself and Mr. Pusic after the meeting and

23 sent as a statement for the media.

24 Q. Can we then look at this public statement, which is 6D 00499.

25 A. What did you say?

Page 25126

1 Q. 6D 00499.

2 A. I can confirm that this is the draft. The handwriting is mine.

3 This is the public statement which I drafted. And if you read --

4 Q. So you have agreed?

5 A. You will see that there's no mention of Bugojno as part of our

6 agreement, just as I have explained answering your previous question.

7 As for the rest, the report of Mr. Pusic about the negotiations

8 corresponds to my statement.

9 Q. Let's just make a distinction. Mr. Pusic's report is what he

10 drafted, and this here is your joint statement, and here we also have an

11 indication that in the shortest possible time -- possible time everybody

12 will be released -- released according to the all-for-all principle.

13 A. Yes. The first paragraphs in Mr. Pusic's report are the

14 reflection of what had been agreed. The thing that is not correct and

15 does not reflect what we had agreed is that we agreed to meet on the 17th

16 of February to discuss the issue of Bugojno and other prisons, and that's

17 why I have not included that into my statement for the media.

18 Q. Can we look at the following document which is P 7861. This is an

19 UNPROFOR report, the civilian affairs of the UNPROFOR report.

20 A. I have it.

21 Q. It is page 5 in the translation. You can look at page 6. And the

22 title is "Negotiations about the release of prisoners of war." It will be

23 the penultimate page in the B/C/S translation.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whilst he's looking,

25 Mr. Ibrisimovic, you've already used up one hour and five minutes. So you

Page 25127

1 are five minutes past your time. Are there other Defence teams that gave

2 away some of their time to you?

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Petkovic's Defence

4 has ceded its time to me, but I will complete my examination within half

5 an hour.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document before me. My

7 name -- or, rather, my surname has been written wrongly on the document,

8 but quite obviously it does refer to the meeting that we talked about on

9 the 12th of February, 1994.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And you agreed for an all-for-all exchange and that the ICRC would

12 be involved.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Now take a look at the next document. P 8093 is the number. It

15 is the report by the monitoring mission of the European Community, and you

16 can take a look at page 4. And the title of the section is "Humanitarian

17 issues." The document is dated the 19th of March, 1994.

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Your name is mentioned as well as Mr. Pusic's name, and the

20 observers or monitors note that everything is going well, that what was

21 agreed is being implemented; right?

22 A. We have here, if I can put it, a jump. What Mr. Pusic and I

23 agreed on the 12th of February, 1994, in Medjugorje was in part

24 implemented on the 1st of March, 2004. So on that day, the BH army

25 released 61 members of the Croatian Defence Council, and the Croatian

Page 25128

1 Defence Council, for its part, released 121 prisoners from Heliodrom. And

2 I think that mostly they were Bosniaks from the village of Sovici. I

3 think it belongs to Jablanica municipality, that village. So that was how

4 the agreement was put into effect, the agreement of the 12th of February,

5 2004.

6 Now, what is mentioned in this document here, which I have before

7 me, is in fact the implementation of another agreement between Mr. Pusic

8 and myself, which was reached in Gornji Vakuf in 19 -- on the 17th of

9 March, 2004. And pursuant to that agreement, we took it upon ourselves to

10 release a certain number of prisoners from both sides. And the agreement,

11 to the best of my recollections, was implemented fully.

12 Q. That's the agreement you discussed with my learned friend

13 yesterday. That's why I didn't mention it. But it was P 08084, the 17th

14 of March agreement, just for the record.

15 A. Yes. According to that agreement, the HVO freed about 19 -- well,

16 around the 19th and 20th or 22nd of March about 750 prisoners from

17 Heliodrom and the military remand prison at Ljubuski. The BH army freed

18 that group of 73 members of the HVO and HV from Mostar, and it also freed

19 294 members of the Croatian Defence Council from Bugojno. And on the 22nd

20 of March, it freed six members of the Croatian Defence Council from

21 Gornji Vakuf.

22 Q. You just mentioned this group of 121 persons who were released

23 pursuant to this agreement. Now, would you look at document P 7985 now,

24 please. Have you found the document?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 25129

1 Q. Do you see here that the military prosecutor's office of Mostar is

2 writing to the service for the exchange of captured and other persons,

3 that is to say to Mr. Pusic, the military prosecutor Mladen Jurisic. I

4 believe you know Mr. Jurisic, do you not? He was the president of the

5 court in Mostar.

6 A. Yes, yes. I know Mr. Jurisic.

7 Q. He says, and he's referring to Mr. Pusic's letter, that the

8 military prosecutor's office approves the agreed-upon exchange of

9 prisoners.

10 A. I have two comments to make regarding this document. The first is

11 this: Allegedly these people were suspects. They were suspected of

12 having belonged to the enemy army. And so this -- they were suspect

13 pursuant to Article 119, para 1.

14 Q. I know what you want to say, but let me stop you. My question was

15 different. This is the procedure that Mr. Pusic had to respect, that is

16 to say the -- when the military prosecutor gives a green light for people

17 to be exchanged he would have to act upon it, regardless of whether legal

18 proceedings are were being conducted or not. That was my question. So is

19 that what follows from this document? Is that what this document shows?

20 A. The military prosecutor, Mr. Jurisic, did not have the legal

21 authority, authority under the law, to release for and send for exchange

22 any individual who was being militarily -- who was being legally

23 prosecuted. There was no law to state he could, either in the laws of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the laws enacted by the then-Croatian Republic of

25 Herceg-Bosna. Nowhere does it say -- is there a provision whereby a

Page 25130

1 military prosecutor can pardon or amnesty somebody against whom legal

2 proceedings have been taken. He could not prosecute them and place the

3 prisoners at the disposal of Mr. Pusic or the service for exchange.

4 Q. Let us leave that to others whether regulations existed or not,

5 provisions and laws existed or not, but Mr. Pusic had to respect what the

6 military prosecutor told him to do. That was the procedure, was it not?

7 A. I really can't agree with you on that point. Mr. Pusic did not

8 have to seek this approval. He should have sought approval from the organ

9 in charge of pardoning these prisoners, abolishing their sentence, and

10 then to free them through the exchange process, not to release them for an

11 exchange process, whereas, as it says here, the military prosecutor's

12 office is legally prosecuting them. So that would mean that you're going

13 to be released, but the lawsuit against you is still in force.

14 You won't find anything like that in any of the laws of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. That was the position of the military prosecutor's office, but

17 Mr. Pusic couldn't influence that in any way. But anyway, we're talking

18 about not the exchange of 121 persons. That was implemented fully as you

19 had agreed; right?

20 A. That's right.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's quarter to

22 4.00. Let's break for 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, according to

Page 25131

1 our calculations, you have 11 minutes remaining.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. I'd like Mr. Masovic now to take a look at just a couple of more

4 documents. One of them is 6D 00580.

5 Have you found the document?

6 A. Yes, I have.

7 Q. It is a document coming from the cabinet of the offices of the

8 President of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

9 Selim Novalic personally. You know him, do you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It says here the president considers that the exchange should take

12 place on the principle of one for one, that is say that the same number of

13 Bosnian prisoners as members of the HVO should be released. And now we

14 have here that the BH army or, rather, the government and the Presidency

15 are insisting on the principle of one or one and not all for all.

16 A. On this document I cannot confirm the authenticity of it. It's

17 not logical, as far as I can see, in the sense that they are jumping over

18 me as the head of the commission, and somebody subordinate to me is

19 discussing this directly with the cabinet and the Presidency. And in any

20 case, this isn't Mr. Izetbegovic's signature. I don't see on the document

21 any number, protocol number, reference number, anything like that.

22 However -- well, this is the first time that I see this document.

23 Q. It wasn't the president who signed it. It says the cabinet of the

24 president. I think that this is the signature of Alija Selimovic, Chef de

25 Cabinet, but we obtained this document from the Prosecution. So the

Page 25132

1 authenticity of the document cannot be challenged.

2 A. Well, I'm not going to go into that. I'm not authorised to do so,

3 to test the authenticity of the document or whatever. All I can notice is

4 that there's no protocol number and that it is not Mr. Izetbegovic's

5 signature there, because I know his signature, because during the war and

6 after the war, through the various documents on pardons signed by him I

7 was able to see his signature and recognise the documents. But if it is

8 indeed an authentic document and if it is an offer for the exchange of 227

9 HVO members for 39 members of the BH army and a 10-member Tuzla

10 delegation, then what I can tell you is that this exchange was implemented

11 in a quite a different way.

12 Q. Yes, I believe you but what I'm saying is that's what the

13 principle was at that point in time and if you look on the left-hand side

14 you can see that this was sent by Paket link, Paket communication. If you

15 can recognise that on the original document at 1525 hours on the 26th of

16 September, 1993. That's when it was sent.

17 A. Well, I state that that wasn't the principle at any time, that

18 time or any other time, and this was borne out by practice later on

19 including what happened in this specific case. And in this specific case

20 what happened was the following: The Croatian Defence Council freed 500

21 prisoners from Gabela camp. It also released 39 members of the BH army

22 from Konjic, and it freed not a ten-member but a nine-member Tuzla

23 delegation, that is to say, a delegation of civilians travelling to Split

24 on a humanitarian aid mission. And in that delegation there was the

25 mufti, Husein Efendi Kavazovic that I referred to yesterday, and in

Page 25133

1 addition to him in the delegation there was also Mr. Alija Muminovic,

2 later on the ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina to Jordan.

3 And on our side, the BH army side on this occasion, it wasn't 227

4 members of the Croatian Defence Council who were released but 309 HVO

5 members were released from the prison in Konjic. And on the side of the

6 HVO at the same time, a Frenchman was freed. I am not sure what his

7 status was, whether he was a journalist or a humanitarian aid worker or

8 something else, but I do know that he was incorporated in this exchange

9 agreement and that on our side we asked that that man be freed too.

10 Q. We can look at the next document, 6D 00762. 6D 00762. It is a

11 document of the Supreme Command Staff of the armed forces, dated the 25th

12 of August, 1993. And the commander -- for the commander Stjepan Siber,

13 and he says in point 1 exchange prisoners of war in the following manner

14 and procedure, namely exchange one for one. 150 for 150 persons. Oh, in

15 the ratio of 1:1. And the Tuzla delegation is mentioned there as well.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Here, too, we see that at that point in time the leaders of the

18 army advocated the one-for-one principle.

19 A. This document -- or, rather, the second document shows that this

20 is the same exchange. The Tuzla delegation that was never carried out.

21 Q. You've already spoken about that. I just wanted to point to

22 bullet point 1, and you have explained that.

23 Yesterday you were shown the alleged interview with Mr. Pusic in

24 "Slobodna Dalmacija". Just for the record, this is P 90 -- P 949. I

25 have my reservations about any sort of interview and Mr. Pusic told me

Page 25134

1 that he does not remember either the journalist or the interview, and I

2 know that you have had some negative experiences with the press. A lot

3 has been written about you as well. And some wrong information was

4 published that did not reflect your position. Am I right?

5 A. If you give me some examples, I can --

6 Q. Somebody called Mitrovic said that -- or wrote that you know what

7 happened at Ozren, and a pamphlet was also published in which your name

8 was mentioned, and I also read some of your statements here at the

9 Tribunal for which, I believe, they are distorted. What I'm saying is

10 that sometimes the press does not really carry the opinion that people

11 uphold.

12 A. I'm not sure what you're talking about. These were not my

13 statements. Those were the statements by other people. As far as I know,

14 I don't have that kind of experience. At least I can't remember any at

15 this moment. I cannot remember anybody distorting my information in the

16 media. Maybe some statements were curtailed because the media never give

17 you enough space. I have so much to say and I'm never given enough space.

18 But I don't remember anybody misinterpreting a statement of mine. I

19 really do not have any influence on what other people say about me.

20 Q. I read you. Of course you mentioned in your statement that

21 Mr. Ivica Zelic that you knew about the whereabouts of the victims or

22 remains that went missing from Ozren; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. But you refuted that?

25 A. I don't know if I did or not but I suppose I did.

Page 25135

1 Q. I talked with Mr. Pusic about Vranica not only about Vranica but

2 also about Bugojno, and Mr. Pusic told me that the same person,

3 Ivica Zelic, i.e., some other people, said that you knew what happened to

4 the people in Bugojno and Mr. Pusic said that this was speculation because

5 you certainly don't know what happened to these people. And this is a

6 pure speculation, and you know nothing about that, and that if you did

7 know then that information would be available to everybody.

8 A. As a matter of fact, I have known for quite a while what happened

9 to these people. After having been taken out from the prison, those

10 people were obviously liquidated. If they hadn't, I'm sure that one of

11 them at least would rejoin their families within the 14 years. What I

12 know [as interpreted] until this very moment is where their mortal remains

13 were buried, and this is one part of my mandate within the federal

14 commission for missing persons and within the institute for missing

15 persons. I also don't know the whereabouts of the 13.000 other people

16 that went missing during the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. This is exactly what I meant when I said that Mr. Pusic said that

18 this is speculation that you know where these people who have probably

19 been killed?

20 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, counsel, and witness, I just want to

21 make sure the transcript is correct, or correctly reflects the witness's

22 answer in respect of his knowledge of the Bugojno group because what we're

23 seeing in English at line 9 is what he says is "what I know" -- "what I

24 know, until this very moment is where their mortal remains were buried,"

25 and I -- it was my understanding based on the witness's testimony

Page 25136

1 yesterday that perhaps he means to say something else, but I just want to

2 make sure the record clearly reflects his knowledge on that point.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. That's not what I said. I

4 said that I am aware of their destiny, and I also said that what I don't

5 know is where they were buried. That's what I don't know. Although, this

6 is part of my mandate to learn, amongst other things, where their mortal

7 remains, the mortal remains of the 21 prisoners were buried. We can say

8 with a high degree of certainty that they were killed. If they hadn't

9 been killed, they would turn up.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This is something that I wanted to hear from you. Mr. Pusic told

12 me that it would be a spear speculation to tell -- to say that you know

13 where these people are buried. And somebody else said that, and said that

14 to him, and he claims that this is simply not the truth. You don't know,

15 do you?

16 A. If I knew where they were buried, you would not have to ask me

17 that, because as soon as I learnt I would have undertaken the steps that

18 are within my purview. I would have undertaken exhumation through the

19 prosecutor's office.

20 Q. What I'm saying is that you don't know, that this is pure

21 speculation.

22 A. This is exactly what I'm saying in confirmation.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I also believe that stories like that are

24 pure speculation. You don't know, and I have no further questions, and I

25 would like to thank you for your patience.

Page 25137

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel, please. For 30

2 minutes. You have 30 minutes.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and

4 good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Masovic.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Before I begin my cross-examination I

8 would like to inform the Trial Chamber that I have one hour at my

9 disposal, 30 minutes that we have anyway, and 30 minutes that we were

10 given by the Prlic Defence. And I'll try and complete my

11 cross-examination even before the time allocated to me.

12 Q. Mr. Masovic, in your testimony you have spoken about the position

13 of the government in Sarajevo and that was said yesterday that people can

14 be exchanged only if they are considered prisoners of war or civilians

15 against whom legal proceedings were conducted for crimes in relation to

16 the armed conflict; is that correct?

17 A. That is correct, but I would like to -- that against whom

18 proceedings are conducted or are still underway, because the exchange also

19 comprised those for whom the conviction had not been passed.

20 Q. I'll try and make the appropriate breaks before I'm warned to help

21 the interpreters and to have everything recorded.

22 So according to you the policies of the government in Sarajevo was

23 not to evacuate the civilians from the territory under the control of the

24 HVO. The evacuation of Bosnian civilians, that is, from the territory

25 under the control of the HVO, or the evacuation of Croats to other

Page 25138

1 territories from the territories where they were residing at that moment.

2 A. That's correct. The policy in place was not to evacuate the

3 civilians. Yesterday I started talking about that, but I did not complete

4 my testimony. I said that the High Commissioner for Refugees at certain

5 moments put a lot of pressure on the government in Sarajevo to allow the

6 evacuation of certain groups of civilians which in the view of the UNHCR

7 were under particular threat. I personally spoke to some members of the

8 Presidency about that problem because a moral dilemma arose with that

9 respect whether to include such civilians into some sort of exchanges that

10 the Serb side insisted on and later on Mr. Pusic joined them. If we are

11 done that, we would have gotten involved in the process of ethnic

12 cleansing that the government in Sarajevo was against throughout all this

13 time. I'm talking about the policies, but I may be able to anticipate

14 your next question, and I can tell you that it did happen that the

15 government or the local authorities did get involved in this type of

16 evacuation of civilians, but mostly those civilians that were threatened,

17 whose life or health were endangered in some centres or whatever you want

18 to call them.

19 Q. Mr. Masovic, I have only one hour, and sometimes I will have to

20 stop your answers, because I just don't have the time for any longer

21 elaborations. I remember you having said that yesterday, and that

22 information is very precious to us when you say that they participated in

23 UNHCR, that is.

24 Yesterday you spoke about the exchange in November that you

25 assisted in Konjic during which 550 Bosniaks were exchanged and the Tuzla

Page 25139

1 mufti Kavazovic was in that group. That was in November, in early

2 November 1993 or thereabouts; would you agree?

3 A. The exchange took place on the 19th of October, 1993. Five

4 hundred prisoners from Gabela --

5 Q. You've already told us that. No need to go over that again.

6 Do you know, tell us, where had that group been? I'm talking

7 about the group of civilians, Bosniaks. Where had they been kept

8 physically?

9 A. They had been detained in a house. I was in that location on that

10 day, on the 19th of October, together with Mr. Silajdzic. The name of the

11 place was either Turija or Zabrdje. Those were two places where prisoners

12 were kept. There was a house there where they were kept, and on that day

13 I even talked to some of them, because a number of them had been taken

14 from the prison and handed over to the Serb side. One of them actually

15 never reappeared alive.

16 Q. Now you have provided me with the information that I was

17 interested in, and that is that on the 19th of October, on that visit

18 Mr. Silajdzic was with you.

19 A. In addition to Mr. Silajdzic, there was also Mr. Komsic,

20 Father Andjelovic and in the prison, i.e., at the place of the exchange,

21 there was Mr. Silajdzic, myself, Mr. Silajdzic's bodyguard and Mr. Selim

22 Novalic.

23 Q. Sir, do you know that when we're talking about this exchange

24 Mr. Silajdzic had proposed to the HVO unit in Turija to evacuate from the

25 area the HVO and Croatian civilians in exchange of money?

Page 25140

1 A. I don't know anything about anything like that.

2 Q. Can you please look in my binder, the first document in my binder,

3 and the number is P 06555. I apologise, I thought that everybody had the

4 documents already.

5 The document is P 06555. It's the first in the binder. Tell me

6 when you've got it?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Now can now look at it together look at the signatory of this

9 document. That's Mladen Zovko, also known as Kuhar. Did you ever have

10 contact with him?

11 A. Yes, I did. This is the man who was our counterpart in Konjic

12 with whom we discussed the exchange that was implemented on the 19th.

13 Q. In the first sentence of this document by the Herceg Stjepan

14 Turija Independent Battalion it says that during talks with Haris

15 Silajdzic for whom you confirmed that he was in Turija on that day, that

16 there was -- there were talks with him regarding the exchange of prisoners

17 of war. In addition to the Independent Battalion, the meeting was

18 attended by Jerko Petrovic, and in addition to Silajdzic on the Muslim

19 side there was also Salko Music, the commander of the 6th Corps, and a

20 member of the Supreme Commander Bosiocic, also known as Zagi.

21 The second paragraph is very significant.

22 "In addition to the talks about the exchange, the aforementioned

23 individuals offered us to surrender our positions to them and in exchange

24 they would enable the evacuation of soldiers and civilians from our free

25 territories across their territory."

Page 25141

1 It says further on: "During the talks Haris Silajdzic undertook

2 to personally provide guarantees regarding possible -- a possible

3 operation."

4 The document continues by saying that on the 3rd of November,

5 1993, the signatory of this document, Mr. Mladen Zovko had a conversation

6 with Fahrudin Fazlic, also known as Braco, who informed him that he had

7 been authorised by Silajdzic to continue negotiations and he goes on to

8 say, "On that occasion he offered to buy from us 70 per cent of small

9 arms, all the heavy weapons and food that has remained and they were

10 prepared to pay for that 500.000 German marks."

11 The document goes on to say and I would like to emphasise a detail

12 in this document that: "On the 5th of November I met with Fazlic again

13 and on that occasion I was informed that as a guarantee we should be

14 escorted by the commander of the 6th Corps and Haris Silajdzic."

15 This letter was sent by this commander to Mostar to Mr. Stojic,

16 Mr. Petkovic, Lucic, and asks them what to do with regard to the offer

17 that he has received. Do you know anything about that? It transpires

18 clearly from this document that in exchange for the evacuation of the HVO

19 and civilians from the territory money has been offered and that the

20 political leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina is involved in that. Are

21 you familiar with this development? Do you know anything about this?

22 A. No, absolutely not. As you can see, my name is not mentioned

23 here. I was not present in any such thing. I was with Mr. Silajdzic

24 throughout the exchange. I told you that we were together in Konjic on

25 the premises of the 6th Corps. Mr. Zovko came there as well. Later on I

Page 25142

1 was in the same APC with Mr. Silajdzic as we went for the exchange, and we

2 returned together to Sarajevo. I -- I don't know whether I'm authorised

3 to comment upon a document of this kind that I don't know anything about

4 that. Even if there had been such a conversation, I did not attend it.

5 But it doesn't make sense. The HVO was in a more powerful position, and

6 the BiH army was not in a position to offer them anything in this case.

7 Q. Sir, do you know what was the position of that part of the HVO in

8 Turija? Do you know what was their position at that time, and do you know

9 why the Tuzla delegation had been captured in the first place? Do you

10 know that they were encircled at the time, that on the one hand they had

11 been expelled from Konjic, that the BH army was on one side, and on the

12 other side there was the Serb army, and that in that so-called Konjic

13 pocket that has been discussed on so many occasions in this -- in this

14 courtroom that they were encircled and that out of sheer desperation that

15 they had captured the delegation in order to draw some attention to

16 themselves? Are you aware of that?

17 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I know that there was certain

18 co-operation and I've already spoken about that. I started talking about

19 that because the captives that the HVO had captured who were members of

20 the BiH army had been handed over to the Serb side for investigation and

21 interviews.

22 Q. Very well, then.

23 A. And one of them was killed. His name was Rasim Makan.

24 Q. And a large number of HVO members were also killed in that area,

25 too, but I was just asking you about this document. You said you don't

Page 25143

1 know anything about it, that you can't comment on it, and that you weren't

2 present.

3 Now, my colleague asked you about the relationship of the

4 political leaders towards the exchanges, and he showed you a moment ago

5 two documents, and for the transcript they were 6D 00580, and 6D 00762.

6 Now, from these two documents we saw the position of the

7 Presidency, or cabinet, President's cabinet, the president of the BH

8 republic, of course, and the top army leaders including Mr. Siber. Linked

9 to this exchange they suggest an exchange on the one-to-one principle.

10 I know, Mr. Masovic, that you said that that exchange did not take

11 place in that way but I'm going to show you a document now and the number

12 of that document is 2D 00590 and it is the last document in my binder but

13 unfortunately actually it's not in my binder. It's an additional document

14 attached to the binder. We have on it e-court luckily. Just tell me when

15 you've found it, please.

16 A. I have found it.

17 Q. We can see here this is a document from the Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Konjic municipality. It is a decision dated the 1st

19 of October, 1993, and I'm just going to remind you that in the document

20 that was shown to you by my colleague Mr. Ibrisimovic a moment ago, and it

21 is the letter from the cabinet of the president, it says that the letter

22 was sent by Paket communication to Konjic and here it says the

23 War Presidency of Konjic municipality at a meeting held on the 1st of

24 October, 1993, is issuing the following decision, and it is signed by

25 Mr. Cibo. Does the name ring a bell? Is it familiar? Mr. Safet Cibo.

Page 25144

1 A. Yes. I know that Mr. Cibo was for a time the president of the

2 wartime Presidency of Konjic municipality, Jablanica, too, and I think

3 Prozor. Three municipalities, I think.

4 Q. All right. Fine. It was a conjoining of municipalities just for

5 wartime conditions outside constitutional principles, and he was the

6 president of those three municipalities; right? Can we put it that way?

7 A. Well, I don't know the reasons why these municipalities were

8 joined up and why he was appointed.

9 Q. All right. But pursuant to the constitution, you and I are both

10 lawyers and we know that, that according to the BH constitution they --

11 there was no community of municipalities. It's just that Mr. Cibo was

12 given authority to be the president of those three municipalities at that

13 time.

14 A. Pursuant to the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Cibo

15 wasn't elected as president of the wartime presidency at all, just as no

16 president of the wartime presidency under war conditions was elected

17 pursuant to the constitution, because given the war circumstances, it was

18 necessary to replace the presidents of municipalities who might have fled

19 the country or crossed over to the other side.

20 Q. Mr. Masovic, under the constitution of the Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the municipalities of Konjic, Jablanica, and Prozor

22 did not represent any community of municipalities, did they? Just say if

23 you know, if you don't know.

24 A. Well, I'm not sure that municipalities are referred to in the

25 constitution, that they are a subject matter that the constitution refers

Page 25145

1 to directly.

2 Q. All right. Let's move on. This was signed by Mr. Cibo, and this

3 is -- refers to the exchange that we discussed a moment ago, which means

4 the October exchange, and you say on the 19th of October, now take a look

5 once again towards bottom Mr. Cibo is making a proposal that the exchange

6 should take place one for one or in the ratio of one to one and this

7 document was sent to the state commission and a letter seems to have been

8 sent to Mr. Silajdzic as well. For the transcript I have to say that we

9 don't have that letter now. Do you remember receiving this document from

10 Mr. Cibo, the state commission? It was sent to the BH state commission

11 for exchange.

12 A. I assume that's right. If it was said that it was sent to the

13 state commission, then it probably was sent to Sarajevo too. That's what

14 I assume.

15 Q. Can we conclude then, Mr. Masovic, that it was the decision taken

16 by the top political -- at the top political level down to the

17 municipalities was that the exchange should be in the one-to-one ratio,

18 although you say that that's not what happened. Is that what we can

19 conclude?

20 A. I was the person who was authorised to negotiate the exchange.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone for

22 counsel.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I highly respect your broad answers and your eloquence. The

25 Prosecutor's going to help me with the microphone. I don't know what's

Page 25146

1 happening to the microphone today it seems to be switching itself off on

2 its own. Now from the two documents you were shown by my colleague

3 Mr. Ibrisimovic and one that I've just shown you, one that you probably

4 received as you yourself say, that quite obviously at that time the top

5 leaders in the army and the political leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 with respect to this exchange had the following position: That the

7 exchange should take place in a one-to-one ratio and that later on you did

8 not do that but the exchange took place as you explained it. That's all

9 I'm asking you?

10 A. I don't know who you consider being the political, army, and

11 municipal leadership, because I consider --

12 Q. Now, in this courtroom, as in any other courtroom for that matter,

13 it is customary for me to ask questions, and I am saying that I consider

14 the cabinet of the president of the presidency to be that and that it is

15 Mr. Siber who was a member of the Supreme Command of the BH army, and I

16 also consider that Mr. Cibo, the president of the three -- or, rather, the

17 wartime presidency of the three municipalities, the political and army

18 leadership when it comes to this exchange. Do we agree on that?

19 A. No, we don't. No, we don't.

20 Q. All right. Let's leave that, Mr. Masovic, then. Quite obviously

21 from the -- the documents speak for themselves and the Trial Chamber will

22 be able to judge often the basis of the documents but you also said that

23 the BH army arrested civilians who did not belong to the category of POWs

24 and persons against whom criminal proceedings had been initiated but it

25 was only individual incidents. Am I right? Did I understand you

Page 25147

1 correctly?

2 A. Yes that's right.

3 Q. Now, do we agree that an incident would be the following: For

4 example, the arrest of a small number of civilians which were not among

5 these other categories, didn't belong to any one of these other

6 categories?

7 A. What do you mean by a lesser number of civilians, a small number

8 of civilians?

9 Q. Well, you tell me what you think an incident means. If a hundred

10 people are arrested, a hundred civilians, outside these categories, or if

11 ten civilians were captured outside these categories.

12 A. Well, I don't know that there were mass arrests which would

13 incorporate dozens or hundreds of civilians. There were individual cases.

14 One civilian, two civilians were deprived of their liberty outside legal

15 provisions. That's the thing I do know about.

16 Q. All right. Now, do you know that the BH army arrested women and

17 children, for example? In large numbers. Let's say more than ten.

18 A. No. I have no knowledge about that, except if they happened to

19 have been women who were legally being prosecuted for some reason.

20 Q. All right. Now, how many women in the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 in Sarajevo, in the cantonal court in Sarajevo, if you can remember, were

22 exchanged? How many women were exchanged? I worked there, and I took

23 part in that process. So how many women -- a total of how many women in

24 Sarajevo were legally prosecuted for crimes linked to the war events? Can

25 you remember how many women?

Page 25148

1 A. Well, I can't know about that, because I just dealt with one part

2 of the persons who were captured, those who went for an exchange. Of

3 course there were a larger number of persons who had been arrested who had

4 nothing to do with the exchange process. So I can talk about that,

5 although I don't know the figures, how many people were involved in the

6 exchange process, who had been previously arrested and deprived of their

7 liberty.

8 Q. Mr. Masovic, I'm interested in women and children now. Do you

9 know that the BH army arrested civilians precisely to have them exchanged,

10 and they weren't within one of those two categories that we were talking

11 about?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know that the BH army, on the 27th and 28th of July, 1993,

14 attacked the village of Doljani near Jablanica, and on that occasion they

15 killed and massacred at least 43 Croats, amongst them civilians, women,

16 children, and members of the HVO?

17 A. No, I don't know about that.

18 Q. You never heard of that happening?

19 A. No, because it wasn't within my remit, within my mandate. Let me

20 repeat again. I don't know the purpose of you enumerating crimes which

21 probably took place but which do not come under my terms of reference. So

22 I can't talk about things that didn't have to do with the exchange of

23 prisoners or killed persons.

24 Q. Mr. Masovic, I'm talking about the exchange of dead bodies, too,

25 and you took part in that. And the purpose, I'll tell you what the

Page 25149

1 purpose is. In the examination-in-chief, you claimed -- this isn't tu

2 quoque, this is just an illustration that I want to show that what you

3 said during the examination in chief as to how the BH army behaved was not

4 quite true, and I'm going to show you that on the basis of documents.

5 Now, when we come to Doljani and mentioning Doljani, take a look

6 at the following document 2D 004 -- no, 588 is the document I'd like you

7 to look at. It is the fourth document in my binder, one signed by a

8 Mr. Rasim Delic. So once you've found it, please tell me. Take a look at

9 it and tell me. And it's also on e-court.

10 A. I have found it.

11 Q. You say you know nothing about that, but never mind. I'm going to

12 tell you that this is a letter written by Mr. Delic, the 6th Corps

13 commander, who says that the President of the Presidency,

14 Alija Izetbegovic, received a letter from Tadeusz Mazowiecki, Special

15 Rapporteur from the former Yugoslavia, claiming that in Prozor there was a

16 massacre of at least 35 Bosnian Croats and that between the 27th and 29th

17 of July, 1993, in the village of Doljani, near Jablanica, 22 Bosnian

18 Croats were massacred.

19 Now, here the commander of the armed forces of the BH army, the

20 top military commander, two or three months after this massacre in Doljani

21 is requesting from the 6th Corps command to inform him what happened,

22 because that is something that Tadeusz Mazowiecki wants to know.

23 Can you remember now, in view of the fact that the Presidency was

24 informed of this and you had frequent contacts, can you remember having

25 any knowledge whatsoever about this? And I'm referring to Doljani in

Page 25150

1 particular, near Jablanica, and you'll see why I'm insisting on Doljani

2 later on. Did you know about this and this letter?

3 A. I don't know how you expect me to have knowledge of this, because

4 from this document it does not follow that the state commission for the

5 exchange of POWs was involved at all. It is obvious that the -- that a

6 crime had taken place, that a crime had been committed.

7 Q. Mr. Masovic, just say, "I don't know," and that's fine. I don't

8 expect you to know about all the crimes committed in Bosnia. Just say you

9 don't know and that will suffice and then I can move on to my next

10 question.

11 A. All right. Fine.

12 Q. Did you know or did you -- do you know now that on that occasion,

13 that is say, after the BH army attack on Doljani, in the Jablanica

14 collection for POWs which was known as the Museum at Jablanica, that the

15 Croatian population was taken out of the village and that they were

16 incarcerated there? Do you know about that? I'm referring to July.

17 A. Yes, yes, I do know that in the Museum in Jablanica there were

18 prisoners or evacuated persons. I'm using both terms, because there was a

19 dispute about this and complaints from the HVO to the international --

20 ICRC who refused to record these persons as detainees or incarcerated

21 persons but as people who had been evacuated and the HVO, rather,

22 Mr. Pusic, on several occasions wrote letters of protest and sent them to

23 the ICRC asking them to amend the status of those persons found in the

24 Museum. Quite frankly, I don't know what their status was, so I can't say

25 one way or another. I can't say they were prisoners or perhaps they were

Page 25151

1 there of their own free will either.

2 Q. But you do agree with me nonetheless that in some collection

3 centre no one would go there of their often free will?

4 A. Well, it wasn't the case of a collection centre. It wasn't a

5 collection centre at all as far as I know.

6 Q. All right fine. Now, do you know that in this collection centre

7 there might have been women and children?

8 A. I think Mr. Pusic several times at our meetings insisted upon the

9 fact that those persons be evacuated to territory under HVO control, and I

10 think he even said that there were some children too.

11 Q. All right. Mr. Masovic, you said a moment ago that as far as you

12 know, they were not in collection centres. Now, look at 6D 00035. It's

13 the document with the yellow sticker, because that document has the status

14 of exhibit. 6D 00035. And we're talking about Jablanica now. Just tell

15 me when you've found it. It's up on e-court too on your screen.

16 A. I have it before me.

17 Q. Right. Now, this is a BH army document. It is a document of the

18 6th Corps of the military police battalion, the military police company of

19 Jablanica. The date is the 5th of August, 1993, and it says here the 6th

20 Corps Military Police Battalion, subject, list of persons situated in the

21 SRZ, and that is a collection centre of POWs, that that is the

22 abbreviation used, the SRZ.

23 A. I really can't say whether that's what it means.

24 Q. All right, you can't, sir, fine. Do you know that the Museum in

25 Jablanica was in fact that collection centre of POWs?

Page 25152

1 A. Yes, I do know about that. Mr. Pusic spoke about that on several

2 occasions.

3 Q. Well, then that's it. That's that. Do you want me to repeat it

4 for the transcript? The list of persons situated in the SRZ of the Museum

5 at Jablanica who were not members of the HVO.

6 Now, Mr. Masovic, I'm going to ask you for the Trial Chamber's

7 benefit, because perhaps the Trial Chamber didn't know who the women are

8 and who the men are judging by the names of our part of the world, look at

9 number 4 it says Dragica. That's a woman's name, isn't it?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Number 10, another lady's name; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Number 12, same thing?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Number 13?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Number 18?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Number 20?

20 A. 19 and 20.

21 Q. Right, 19 and 20. And finally, Mr. Masovic, unfortunately I don't

22 have time, but on this list, and we can go through it if you want us to do

23 so and if the Trial Chamber requests it, out of a total of 87 persons on

24 that list who were not members of the HVO, which is something that the

25 6th Corps Military Police Battalion claims, there are 53 women on that

Page 25153

1 list. There are 53 women, 53 women's names on that list. You knew

2 nothing about that?

3 A. Yes, I did know about that, and I repeat, they were persons who

4 you mentioned and were mentioned by Mr. Pusic who were from Doljani,

5 evacuated --

6 Q. Mr. Masovic --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and make

8 pauses between question and answer, thank you, and turn on their

9 microphones.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you answer just briefly, please, if you can. This is a

12 document from the 6th Corps. Does it arise from this document that they

13 are at the SRZ Museum, whatever that is?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So these are not people that may be at large somewhere. At least

16 that's what arises from this document.

17 A. I can -- I have to repeat and say that for the International

18 Committee of the Red Cross their status was very clear. They were

19 persons --

20 Q. Sir, sir. Mr. Masovic, but their status for the BiH army was that

21 they were in the collection centre for prisoners of war. This is what I'm

22 trying to say, and this arises from this document. If you don't know it,

23 if you can't comment on it, just say so and we'll move on.

24 A. My previous answer has not been recorded in the transcript, so I

25 would kindly ask you to allow me finish it.

Page 25154

1 For the International Red Cross, their status was the status of

2 persons that had to be evacuated.

3 Q. Then it is clear that there is a difference between the position

4 of the International Red Cross and the BiH army. At least this is what

5 arises from this document, because they were in the collection centre.

6 And if the Red Cross says they had to be evacuated, it doesn't mean that

7 they were not in the collection centre.

8 A. You are persistently trying to make me say that this is a

9 collection centre, and we agreed previously this was the SRZ Museum in

10 Jablanica. I said that I don't know what it means. I'm not saying that

11 it is not what you're saying it is, but I don't know, and please do not

12 try and make me say that this was a collection centre because I'm not

13 going to answer in that way because I don't know. If I did know I would

14 answer.

15 Q. Mr. Masovic, you have answered. You have of told me that the

16 Jablanica Museum was in actual fact a collection centre for the prisoners

17 of war.

18 A. In the Jablanica Museum for a certain while prisoners of war were

19 kept.

20 Q. Very -- thank you very much. We're moving on.

21 We have already established that in October you assisted an

22 exchange in Konjic. You had lists during the exchange, and let me ask you

23 this: Do you know, and I will allow that you don't, that in Konjic, in

24 the general area of Konjic, that is, the BiH army arrested civilians,

25 women and children, the whole families even?

Page 25155

1 A. I cannot be aware of that for a simple reason. They did not enter

2 the process that I was in charge of. I'm talking about the process of

3 exchanges of prisoners of war save for the two category that I would like

4 to go back to. If you're talking about the specific exchange which took

5 place on the 19th of October --

6 Q. No, I'm not.

7 A. In the territory of Konjic when it comes to the Croatian Defence

8 Council, I was involved in the release of 309 members of the Croatian

9 Defence Council.

10 Q. Mr. Masovic --

11 A. And this is what I know. As for the rest, I can't be aware of

12 anything.

13 Q. Mr. Masovic, you have told us, and I'm not asking you this without

14 any reason, I believe that I've laid the foundation for my next question,

15 you said if the women and the children were arrested and especially the

16 children and women against whom proceedings were not undergoing, if this

17 was done by the BH army, it must have been an incident. That's why I'm

18 asking you, did you have any information that this was not an incident and

19 that's why I'm asking you whether you know that in Konjic there were

20 arrests preceding the exchange and even women and children and whole

21 families were arrested?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Let's look at 2D 00589. This is the last document in my binder

24 save for the one that was added subsequently. Have the first page on

25 e-court, but I believe that things will be easier for you if you find the

Page 25156

1 hard copy in my binder.

2 Did you find it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This is a document issued on the 23rd of November, 1993, Konjic

5 municipality, social services administration. This is obviously after the

6 civilian population and troops had been exchanged and left Konjic. This

7 list was compiled of imprisoned civilians in Konjic.

8 Mr. Masovic, this list contains the names of 466 individuals. As

9 you can see in the original document, certain names are accompanied by the

10 word "with their families." There is also a large number of women. Let's

11 just take, for example, the first page on which you will find the name of

12 Milka Baric, a female, under number 5. Alenka Baric under 8. This is

13 obviously two members of the same family; did you know anything about

14 this?

15 A. No, I didn't I've not seen this document before. This is a

16 document by the HVO, isn't it?

17 Q. Yes. By the HVO with the names and family names of individuals

18 and whole families that hailed from the area of Konjic and that resided

19 there up to this date. And were arrested before this date and before that

20 they were civilians. You don't know anything about that?

21 A. I can only tell you that really it absolutely doesn't make sense

22 for the International Committee of the Red Cross not to register any of

23 these individuals. I suppose that none of them were registered because

24 there are a lot of names in this list.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

Page 25157

1 continues] ... trying to avoid answering this question. Whenever the

2 counsel asks you whether you knew whether the ABiH would arrest civilians

3 whether they be women or children you answer by mentioning ICRC. That is

4 not the question. The question is whether you knew the ABiH would arrest

5 civilians. Just say whether you knew or you didn't. Don't try to involve

6 the ICRC in this matter.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have confirmed and I confirm it

8 again that I have information about different parts of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina that people, civilians were arrested without any legal grounds

10 for that I said it yesterday and I confirm it today that this was

11 incidents, and this -- this was done by certain individuals or units of

12 the BH army. This is what I said yesterday, and I repeat it today.

13 In answer to this particular question, I have said and I repeated

14 that this list was compiled by the HVO and that according to what I knew

15 could -- is not credible. It is not reliable, because for such a large

16 number of civilians, women, children, men, it is absolutely certain that

17 this fact would have been recorded and made public. I'm sure that at

18 least one of the international institutions who was tasked with recording

19 such incidents and this was in October 1993, which I would like draw

20 attention to, this was very far in the conflict, I'm sure this fact would

21 have been recorded by the International Red Cross. I'm sure of that.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Masovic, if this document was drafted by the HVO, the previous

24 one was drafted by the BiH army, and the previous document contains the

25 names of 53 women. And if the 53 women had been incarcerated this would

Page 25158

1 not constitute an incident. Do you agree with me? I have put a

2 hypothetical question to you. If.

3 A. Yes, if. If they had been incarcerated, especially if they were

4 females, if those were children, then 50 people would not constitute an

5 incident. It would be much more than an incident, I agree with that.

6 Q. Mr. Masovic, do you know that this Tribunal, The Hague Tribunal,

7 issues a first instance judgement, IT-01-47-T on 15 March 2006 in the case

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura. Are you aware of

9 that as a former attorney-at-law?

10 A. Yes, I know that a judgement was passed in this case, that there

11 was a decision.

12 Q. Do you know that this decision establishes that the BiH army

13 arrested civilians, women, children, which did not belong to the

14 categories that you mentioned?

15 A. I've not had an occasion to read the sentence, the decision.

16 Q. Let's look at it together. Let's look at document 2D 00587, which

17 is the third document in my binder. Just for the transcript, I would like

18 to say that for the purpose of this cross-examination we have uploaded on

19 e-court, i.e., we're going to use the document starting with count 1303 of

20 the decision to count 1311 of this decision. Let's look at the decision

21 together, Mr. Masovic, and would I particularly like to draw everybody's

22 attention to these parts of the sentence are legally binding, because no

23 appeal was lodged to these parts of the -- the decision either by the

24 Prosecution or by the Defence.

25 It says in count 1303, two detention centres were set up in

Page 25159

1 Mehurici in Mehurici elementary school and in the smithy, known as

2 Mehurici blacksmith shop.

3 The school took in approximately 250 Bosnian Croat civilians

4 between 6 June and 24 June 1993.

5 Every part of this decision is very, very interesting. However,

6 the time does not permit me what the Trial Chamber has established with

7 this regard so could you please look at count 1306. This is on the

8 following page in the English version and in the B/C/S version. It says

9 here: "According to Witness Vinko Tadic, a Bosnian Croat civilian, a

10 group of 13 or 14 armed soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms arrived in

11 Konjska on the slope of Mount Vlasic early in the morning on 6 June

12 1993."

13 I skip a sentence and I continue. "He stated that he was unable

14 to identify the military unit to which the group of soldiers belonged, but

15 he said that some of them wore green armbands with a badge marked 'MOS.'"

16 It goes on: "The soldiers then assembled and arrested a group of

17 villagers that included men, women and children."

18 I skip a sentence and I go on: "Next on the order of a soldier

19 whom they called Hadzija, the soldiers brought them to the village of

20 Mehurici."

21 I apologise. "On the order of a soldier named Hadzija, the

22 soldiers brought them to the village of Mehurici. When they arrived in

23 Mehurici the villagers were taken to Mehurici elementary school and

24 installed in its sports room."

25 Please look at the part of this decision under 1307 on the

Page 25160

1 following page. It says: "As indicated previously in the judgement on 8

2 June 1993, following a fresh outbreak of fighting between the HVO and the

3 ABiH, in Maline 306th Brigade Military Police escorted a column of

4 approximately 250 prisoners consisting of Bosnian Croat civilians and the

5 HVO soldiers who had surrendered previously to Mehurici elementary

6 school."

7 Under 1308 it says: "Most of the detainees assembled in the

8 school sports room were elderly people, women and children, including very

9 young children and pregnant women."

10 I skip a sentence.

11 And it goes on: "Some witnesses stated that the civilians were

12 locked up in the school in order to protect them from the Mujahedin given

13 the proximity of their camp in Poljanica, or to safeguard the civilian

14 population in view of the intensifying fighting in the region."

15 We can look at the footnote. This was stated by Remzija Siljeg,

16 Munir Karic, who are obviously Bosniaks and did not fall in the category

17 of the detainees who were all Croats. Wouldn't that be correct?

18 It goes on to say in the judgement that there were some witnesses

19 who spoke about the interest of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina to

20 exchange these prisoners for -- for the prisoners -- Muslim prisoners

21 captured by the HVO. I'm just going to refer to one more count in the

22 judgement, 1310, which says that individuals and especially men who were

23 detained in the gym were physically ill-treated.

24 Mr. Masovic, you said that you were not aware of this judgement,

25 but let me ask you whether you heard of these events during the war or

Page 25161

1 during the exchanges? Did you hear of the events that had taken place in

2 territory of Zenica regarding the incarceration of Croatian civilians?

3 A. The civilians that are mentioned in this judgement and the reason

4 for their stay in the school is not clear from what you have just read out

5 to me, because there are witnesses who say one thing, and there are also

6 others who say something else, were never the subject of exchanges. One

7 of the witnesses, as I can see, or more of them say that they may have

8 been incarcerated with a view to being exchanged. I wouldn't know about

9 that.

10 Q. Mr. Masovic, you have left me with the room to ask you this

11 because you have said expressly that the policy of the government in

12 Sarajevo was to send these two categories for exchange. You said that any

13 arrest of people outside of these two categories fall under the motion of

14 incident. I'm putting it to you that the people who were arrested here

15 were also pregnant women and children who were certainly not -- did not

16 fall within those two categories. I'm asking you whether you knew

17 anything about that during your mandate. The Trial Chamber has

18 established that, and the Honourable Judge Antonetti was the Presiding

19 Judge in this case. He has established that for a fact. I'm asking you

20 what you know about that as a witness sitting before this Trial Chamber

21 today?

22 A. I repeat: This category of civilians was not part of the mandate

23 of the commission that I was in charge of and also it doesn't arise from

24 what you have just said or at least I don't see it, you are more familiar

25 with the judgement, I see it for the first time, but I don't see why these

Page 25162

1 people would have been kept in the school.

2 Q. Mr. Masovic -- Mr. Masovic, under wartime conditions is there a

3 single logical reason for a pregnant child -- woman and child to be found

4 in prisoner anywhere?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Right. Now, I have to wind up, and I'm almost done. Now, you

7 don't have to agree with some of the things I'm going to say, but from the

8 documents I've shown you, does it follow that - this is my question - that

9 the BH army arrested civilians among whom women and children. From the

10 documents we've seen. I'm not asking you on the basis of your knowledge

11 but on the basis of the documents we've just seen?

12 A. Let me repeat, what I know is that that was at the level of

13 incidents. They were incidents.

14 Q. Right. Thank you. I haven't got more time to go into all this.

15 I just have an hour at my disposal, so that will suffice.

16 According to the number of arrested persons, from the documents

17 we've seen, from the different places where they were arrested, can you

18 tell us now, on the assumption that these documents are true and correct,

19 that they were incidents or were they something more than just an

20 incident?

21 A. These documents don't speak of arrested persons or rather

22 incarcerated persons. In the document all that is mentioned - you said

23 that the Croatian Defence document made this document in Ljubuski in

24 November and that this refers to persons who imprisoned, 400 and

25 something.

Page 25163

1 Q. Mr. Masovic, I hope you're not going to deny that from the

2 judgement I read out that there were two detention centres. And I've just

3 quoted that from the document, the document the BH army compiled, how many

4 there were. Just take this one here, this judgement. They are detention

5 centres. You don't have to answer my question. You can say yes, no, or I

6 don't know, or you don't have to answer, but I haven't got the time to go

7 back to the arguments that I put forward which are incontestable when it

8 comes to the judgement.

9 Your position is clear to me. I'm quite clear on your position.

10 All I'm asking you is does that follow from these documents? You can say

11 that it doesn't or that it does or that you don't know. Let me repeat

12 according to the number of persons incarcerated and the different places

13 that this happened and according to the documents I showed you can this be

14 considered to be just a mere incident, the arrest of women and children,

15 would -- would you consider those to be incidents? Or something more?

16 A. From the documents that you've shown me, it clearly follows that

17 in all these cases they were not arrests as you state. So in the SRZ

18 Museum Jablanica --

19 Q. Thank you, thank you. I don't have any time to go into all that.

20 You gave me an answer and that will suffice.

21 Mr. Masovic, in the judgement which I quoted a moment ago it says

22 that the BH army, among other things, arrested civilians for an exchange.

23 Can you confirm that that's what it says in the judgement there, that that

24 was what a certain number of witnesses also claimed? Say you can't

25 confirm it, you can.

Page 25164

1 A. Well, just tell me -- I'm not sure what paragraph you're referring

2 to.

3 Q. Well, forget my question. The paragraph exists, the judgement

4 exists, the Trial Chamber will deal with it. I think that's more

5 important than your answer and my question, but I want to ask you one more

6 thing. You spoke about the HVO policy. I don't have a single document.

7 It's a short topic, so let's take it slowly. You spoke of the HVO policy

8 to evacuate civilians from the area controlled by the BH army and areas

9 which were not -- or, rather, persons who were not detained, not

10 incarcerated. I don't want to mention any other -- any of the accused,

11 but you said that you gained the impression that that was HVO policy, that

12 they wanted to evacuate the Croats from areas where Croats were not

13 incarcerated; right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Masovic, is it normal on the basis of your experience for

16 civilians to wish to leave the territory which was taken control of by the

17 enemy army in which their compatriots were arrested and where crimes might

18 have been committed? Is it normal for civilians, civilians who consider

19 themselves to be enemy ones because under -- in quotation marks. Is it

20 normal that they wish to leave the territory that was not controlled by

21 their side?

22 A. I spoke about this in a different context yesterday and an

23 attempt --

24 Q. Mr. Masovic, look at my context and answer me within my context.

25 We spent the whole war in Sarajevo, you and I. Is it normal? I just

Page 25165

1 wants you to confirm this, if you will, that civilians want to leave a

2 territory that was taken control of by the enemy army? That's how the

3 Bosniaks left and the Serbs left and the Croats left. Isn't that normal?

4 Is that normal for civilians to leave the territory that has been taken

5 control of by the enemy army?

6 A. It's not normal if that happens through the process of the

7 exchange of those civilians. Then it's not normal. Under different

8 conditions it would be normal, in my opinion, regardless of the territory,

9 enemy or not, that civilians try to avoid war operations, but it's not

10 normal that that will should be done through the commission for the

11 exchange of POWs -- or prisoners.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It seems to me that the interpreters have gained allies among the

15 technicians, so when we speed up the microphones seem to be switched off,

16 but let's look at the Doljani situation, where quite obviously a massacre

17 had taken place and Mr. Delic wrote about that, too, in his letter. When

18 we look at the question -- the instance of Konjic where there was an

19 exchange of HVO members in large numbers and Jablanica in that Museum

20 where there were members of the HVO and some other citizens. And when we

21 look at the case of Zenica from this judgement and the broader area around

22 Zenica, and if we remember Bugojno where 21 Croats were killed, we know

23 that, and we know that they were very prominent Croats, they were leaders

24 of the Croatian ethnicity in Bugojno, is it then the legitimate right of

25 civilians living in that territory to wish to leave when incidents like

Page 25166

1 this are taking place, not to say crimes - or let me say crimes - and when

2 their compatriots are being arrested? Would that be normal?

3 A. So it's an individual decision, and that's what happened in

4 wartime. Some people left the territory for those and other reasons, for

5 hunger and fear, out of fear, or some other reason, the possibility of

6 finding themselves in other places.

7 Q. Let's take fear, one of the factors you mentioned. Was that one

8 of the basic motives that moved a large number of individuals to move out?

9 I'm not talking about individuals. Foca -- not Srebrenica, other

10 territories from which the Bosniaks were expelled by the Serbs. Was

11 the -- was fear a legitimate reason?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your last question, Ms. Nozica,

13 because we've got another two counsel to intervene.

14 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, Your Honour, but our Defence will have some

15 questions.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you. Your Honour, I

18 just have two or three more questions, and I've been given permission from

19 the Coric Defence.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. You've been given some

21 time. How much?

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll need a total of five minutes,

23 which was what I was given.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

25 questions for this witness, so if my colleague Ms. Nozica needs a few more

Page 25167

1 minutes, she can have our time.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Masovic, I'm going to ask you this now, you were asked it

4 during the examination-in-chief: Why did the Croatian civilians, can you

5 tell us why the Croatian civilians from Catici went to take refuge in the

6 base of the French Battalion? Did they do that out of fear? Did they

7 leave their homes out of fear? You don't know?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Mr. Masovic, when somebody leaves their home

10 and goes to the French Battalion base, let's forget that they were Croats

11 just for a moment. Can you and I assume that people do that kind of thing

12 out of fear?

13 A. I don't know. I don't want to speculate about things that I don't

14 know. I have absolutely no knowledge that. All I can do is to assume and

15 guess, and I don't think that that is what is required here.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, but I'm sorry, but I get the feeling

17 that you are inviting the witness to speculate what other people might

18 have for motives for doing this and that and I wonder whether this gives a

19 solid factual basis to the Chamber. You want him to say what -- what you

20 want him to say, but you ask him to speculate. What do you think other

21 people's -- why do other people do this and that? Every one of us can

22 answer that question. I don't know why this witness should add anything

23 to the knowledge of the Chamber if he makes that kind of assumptions.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, it is my

25 task and duty to try and extract from the witness what I want to extract.

Page 25168

1 That is the business of cross-examination. If the witness says he knows

2 nothing about it, I won't insist further. But I did ask him about

3 something that would be considered to be normal. If the witness says he

4 doesn't want to speculate, I'll move on. That's sufficient for me.

5 Q. And now my last question, sir --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me ask a follow-up question.

7 When people would be liberated, released, you and the members of your

8 commission, would you meet with the people who had just been released?

9 Would you discuss with them about what had happened, what they had

10 experienced, why they had been arrested, what they were intending to do in

11 the future? Did you have this kind of contact? I mean, between you and

12 the members of your commission and the released people.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We focused exclusively on seeing

14 whether those prisoners who had been free -- freed knew about other

15 prisoners who possibly stayed on in the camps or prisons from which these

16 others had come or in some other prison or camp where they stayed from

17 time to time. All other questions, questions about their future, who

18 mistreated them, why they were arrested in the first place, all these

19 other questions were the task of other state organs to delve into, mostly

20 the police, the military police if it was POWs and prosecutors if they

21 had -- if they were in serious violation of international humanitarian

22 law.

23 We in the commission just focused on their knowledge about the

24 names of people who stayed on, who remained in the camps or prisons after

25 they had left.

Page 25169

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Therefore, you had

2 contacts with the people who had been released. However, those who were

3 released, did they at any time tell you that -- that when they had been

4 captured it was -- they were captured because the other side would also

5 capture people, and there were between the warring parties exchange of

6 prisoners? One side would take some people, the other one would do the

7 same, and then they would make phone calls in order to exchange prisoners.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not ask them things like

9 that. When we were interested in was whether there were any more

10 prisoners in the camps and whether these prisoners had taken part in

11 burying other prisoners or had anything to do with the places where these

12 others were buried and where we could find the bodily remains of the

13 prisoners who might have been killed.

14 Now, all your questions, Your Honour, all the questions you've

15 just asked me, are questions that they asked or -- or, rather, the police,

16 the military police, the prosecutors asked them immediately after they

17 left the camps and prisons. Quite literally sometimes directly from the

18 place of exchange, took them to the police station or the policemen would

19 come to these locations if we were dealing with a larger number of people

20 released, or they would go to the schools or gymnastics halls where the

21 released prisoners were collected, and then the officials would take

22 statements of that nature from the prisoners who had been released.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Masovic, now, you've just told the Trial Chamber that you were

25 a Member of Parliament. You're a -- you have been politically active for

Page 25170

1 some time, so now I'd like to ask you a question which is broader and

2 relates to your political knowledge and other knowledge. We discussed the

3 situation, a hypothetical situation, according to which the population

4 finding themselves on a territory occupied by the enemy army does its best

5 to leave the area, I would like to ask you in your opinion - if you can

6 answer do it, so if you cannot, say you cannot - would it be the duty of

7 the authorities to which these civilians belonged to protect them and to

8 try to put them up in an area where they would be safe and secure? Would

9 that be the duty of the authorities regardless of which authorities they

10 would be?

11 A. I'm not sure I understood your question.

12 Q. Let me make myself clearer. We had a few interruptions but I'd

13 like to take you back to the civilians' departure from the areas occupied,

14 for instance, by an enemy army, and I'm asking you the following: In your

15 opinion, is it the duty of the authorities to whom those civilians belong,

16 those civilians who stayed on in the territory, is it the duty of the

17 authorities to try and relocate them somewhere else where they would be

18 safer, move them to an area where they would be safer if they are in

19 jeopardy?

20 A. Are you talking about an international conflict or what? I don't

21 understand what you want, what you're getting at.

22 MR. STRINGER: I believe that to an extent the question is asking

23 for a legal opinion, the witness is not competent to address this

24 particular issue in terms of the responsibilities, legal responsibilities

25 of the authorities. I think certainly he's competent to talk about his

Page 25171

1 experience in the release issues.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, the witness is an

3 attorney-at-law. He has been a member of a large number of legal

4 commissions in his country, even of a constitutional commission. So if

5 there is one individual who is able to state a view with regard to a sort

6 of problem of legal nature, he's the one.

7 So please proceed, Ms. Nozica, but maybe you might rephrase your

8 question.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Masovic, according to your experience and legal knowledge,

11 would it be logical for the authorities to try and relocate the citizens

12 somewhere safe if they are in the territory under the control of the enemy

13 army and as such threatened in some way? Wouldn't that be the obligation

14 of that government?

15 A. Are you referring of to the concrete conflict in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina or speaking generally?

17 Q. I'm speaking about the concrete conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Would the government have to have done that in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. The government in Bosnia-Herzegovina is one and only, the

20 government in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Mr. Masovic, I didn't want to open that subject, but let me tell

22 you this. There was just one government and you asked me to agree with

23 you?

24 A. And my positive answer to your question would be this: That

25 government in Sarajevo was duty-bound to make sure to protect all the

Page 25172

1 civilians that were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.

2 Q. Mr. Masovic, did they succeed? Did they succeed to protect

3 everybody?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How many Serbs and Croats in Sarajevo were killed and taken to the

6 front line and exchanged how many such persons were there, do you know?

7 Did the government in Sarajevo -- in Sarajevo where the headquarters of

8 the government was to -- were they successful at protecting Croats in

9 November 1993 when the leadership of the HVO were arrested? Were they

10 afraid and did they leave Sarajevo because of that?

11 A. This was not done by the government in Sarajevo but the Serbian

12 government in Kula.

13 Q. Where was Mr. Zec [phoen] incarcerated?

14 A. In Sarajevo.

15 Q. Who arrested him in Sarajevo, Serbs or Muslims?

16 A. It was the government. After --

17 MR. STRINGER: I'm one of many perhaps who is struggling to follow

18 this dialogue, but it seems to me it's getting beyond the scope of the

19 direct examination or at least beyond the scope of what's relevant.

20 MS. NOZICA: No, no.

21 MR. STRINGER: We're talking about the Serbs authorities here, and

22 so again if I could just finish, I'd like to say that the exchange is

23 happening extremely quickly, and it seems to be going in a direction that

24 doesn't mean anything to me and so I'm objecting.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: The exchange is rather quick and they do need to

Page 25173

1 slow down, but what is quite evident today is that the gentleman is

2 obviously biased and that he is one-sided, and I think it is relevant,

3 because what Ms. Nozica is showing is the bias of this gentleman and we're

4 going to be arguing that at least with some of his answers that this Trial

5 Chamber should disregard. That's the purpose. That's why it's relevant.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, counsel's --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Look, we have to have a

8 break. We will have a 20-minute break, and after the break around 6.00,

9 Ms. Nozica will have to finish because then we will have Mr. Kovacic and

10 possibly some additional -- some redirect from Mr. Stringer.

11 We shall resume in 20 minutes' time.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing's

15 resumed.

16 Mr. Stringer, you were on your feet, and I interrupted you. What

17 did you want to say?

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I had made an objection at the end

19 of the proceedings. I've said what I wanted to say, and I have nothing to

20 add at this time.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 So, Ms. Nozica, are you done?

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I will be done

24 very soon.

25 To Mr. Stringer's objection, I would like to say that on direct

Page 25174

1 Mr. Masovic mentioned Mr. Zelic, and that is why I went back to that

2 question, and now I would like to draw my cross-examination to an end.

3 Q. Mr. Masovic, you've told us that you recognised only the

4 authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo; is that correct? You

5 said that immediately before our last break.

6 A. The government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo as the

7 government of an internationally recognised state of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina.

9 Q. Mr. Masovic, I lived in Sarajevo together with you, and that is

10 also the only government that I recognise myself, but I'm asking you now

11 whether you are familiar with the fact that the international community

12 recognised the government of the HZ HB and Republika Srpska, that the

13 international community negotiated with the two of them, that the

14 government in Sarajevo also negotiated with these two entities, to call

15 them that. Are you aware of that?

16 A. Now you are referring to the constitutional matter, and I am now

17 referring to the constitution as well, and who negotiated with whom, who

18 recognised whom, I really don't know. I was not familiar with those

19 negotiations. If you'd asked me about the constitutional order of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would say this was the government in Sarajevo.

21 Q. No, I'm not asking you that because you have already stated it.

22 We will not go into that matter.

23 Finally, when we're talking about the matter of recognition, or

24 factual recognition as you put it, you will be familiar with the fact that

25 representative of the HZ HB signed the Washington Agreement. Are you

Page 25175

1 aware of that? Just say yes or no.

2 A. I don't know who you're referring to. Can you please be more

3 precise? Who are you referring to?

4 Q. The representative of the HZ HB. Do you know who signed the

5 Dayton agreement on behalf of the HZ HB?

6 A. I believe that it was signed by Presidents Izetbegovic, Tudjman,

7 and Slobodan Milosevic.

8 Q. Do you know that Mr. Zubak, as a representative of the HZ HB, also

9 participated in the negotiations?

10 A. I know that he participated but I don't know what his position

11 was.

12 Q. You don't know. Thank you, Mr. Masovic. I have just received a

13 suggestion from my colleague.

14 Tell me, Mr. Masovic, just one more question, when you were

15 talking about the discovery of the Goranci grave, you said that Mrs. Sonja

16 Mulac called you - Interrupt me if I'm not interpreting your answer

17 correctly - and that you said about a dead body she recognised a uniform

18 and she concluded this might be a Bosniak and that's when she called you

19 and that's when you arrived there. Is that what you said?

20 A. I believe that somebody from the Serb commission suggested to her

21 that those were not Serb soldiers as they originally thought but, rather,

22 that they were Bosniaks, and that's when I went there on the following day

23 to assist the exhumation.

24 Q. How can you recognise somebody as being a Bosniak by their

25 uniform? What was that Bosniak army, and what uniforms did it wear? I'm

Page 25176

1 asking you this because you are insisting on the fact that there was only

2 the government in Sarajevo covering the entire territory of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina and that it was supposed to be the government or the authority

4 representing all of the citizens. I'm asking you how could you have

5 assumed on the basis of the uniform that the person buried in that uniform

6 was a Bosniak; what kind of a uniform would that have been? Was that the

7 uniform of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. I'm not talking about Bosniaks. I'm talking about members of the

9 BiH army, some of whom were not even Bosniaks but they wore the uniforms

10 of the BiH army. One of the ten identified members of the BiH army from

11 Vranica was not Bosniak. His father is Serb and his mother is a Bosniak.

12 Q. Sir, we still have the transcript before us. On page 15, page

13 82 -- line 82 [as interpreted], you say in answer to my question that

14 Sonja Mulac called you because she had recognised one person as being

15 Bosniak. I'm asking you this: Do you believe, yourself -- when she

16 called you did you believe that members of the BH army were supposed to be

17 Bosniaks, all of them? Is that what you implied when you said that?

18 A. If I said that during your cross-examination, if I said that those

19 were Bosniaks, it was not correct. I believe that in my testimony

20 yesterday - I believe but I'm not sure - that after the uniform of the BiH

21 army was recognised, I went there to assist in the exhumation.

22 Q. I remember that you said that the uniform told you that it was a

23 Bosniak.

24 A. It is impossible to tell who's who just by the uniform. It's

25 impossible.

Page 25177

1 Q. I agree with you. I agree with you when you say that.

2 A. If we're talking about ethnicity, but obviously it is possible to

3 recognise the army that that uniform belonged to. And based on the

4 uniform, we were able to tell the army that the victim belonged to without

5 knowing whether that person was a Serb, a Croat, or a Bosniak or somebody

6 else from Vranica.

7 Q. Very well, Mr. Masovic. I agree with you. That's what -- why I

8 found your yesterday's answer strange.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

10 finished my cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to file

13 an oral request in keeping with your decision of 10 May 2007. I'm

14 referring to paragraphs 11 and 12 to allow Mr. Praljak to put questions to

15 the witness himself, and I'm basing this request on the fact that the

16 topics in question were -- have been studied by General Praljak after the

17 war. He was in charge of the research of that particular topic, the topic

18 of prisoners of war and victims in various locations in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He has collected all the publicly available

20 information. He analysed that information, and he has published the

21 information in a booklet that was published in 2006.

22 I believe that he possesses a lot of knowledge about the topic,

23 which makes him competent in terms of the definition of extraordinary

24 circumstances that is referred to in the decision that was passed on the

25 10th of May, 2007.

Page 25178

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the title of this

2 booklet?

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The title of the booklet -- you have

4 it, Your Honours, before you. "Croatian victims during the war in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina," which provides an overview of various locations and

6 events, and the booklet is based on the existing literature.

7 I would kindly ask the usher to -- [In English] Usher. I gave it

8 to him. Okay. You will find -- you will find that book enclosed,

9 Your Honour. Earlier we have used some similar material which was then

10 only the draft.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I have two objections.

13 The first is that in our view this subject matter and this witness do not

14 fall within any of the exceptions identified by the Trial Chamber in its

15 ruling. There's nothing particularly exceptional about this topic, and

16 particularly in view of the fact that it may be something that the General

17 has studied or any of us has possibly studied. It doesn't fall within the

18 terms of the Trial Chamber's order, certainly not the sort of military

19 expertise, military aspects that the Trial Chamber has allowed

20 General Praljak to conduct examinations on in the past.

21 Secondly, I've got a book here for which I don't have a

22 translation. I see that it is largely maps, but it's not just maps. It's

23 a lot of other things, including photographs, diagrams, commentary for

24 which I do not have a translation, and that's another basis for the

25 objection.

Page 25179

1 So it's our submission that this is not a situation which

2 Mr. Praljak, especially in view of the fact that he's got such competent

3 counsel, needs to himself conduct the cross-examination.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may respond to

7 one part of my learned friend's objection, the initial part in which my

8 learned friend claims that this argument is not in keeping with the

9 provisions of your order. I believe that this argument does not hold its

10 ground. You said that -- in your order that exceptional circumstances may

11 arise in two occasions, if the accused himself participated in an event or

12 he is particularly competent to discuss this issue. This is the topic of

13 victims, which relates to the topic of exchanges in the unfortunate war.

14 I believe that is very specific area, bearing in mind the rumours, the

15 policy, the propaganda goals that existed on both sides, and

16 General Praljak has -- has invested a lot of effort to study just one of

17 the segments of this topic and research that based on facts.

18 Maybe General Praljak can supplement my argument.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer said that he did

20 not have the translation. Would you mind reading out the first page just

21 to have a idea as to whether he has special knowledge in this field when

22 it comes to missing people. But I can lend you mine.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I have not got a

24 copy, but I believe it is forthcoming.

25 [In English] Maybe Mr. Praljak, since he has a copy.

Page 25180

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, since Mr. Praljak has the

2 book, he can read the first page.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

4 Your Honours. Thank you very much for the time given to me. I will

5 briefly explain --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry. Sorry. You haven't been

7 granted anything yet. There is a discussion among the Judges on the

8 Bench. I wanted to know what the title was. Would you mind reading it

9 out and the interpreters will translate, will interpret into the languages

10 we need.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted

12 to explain and say that there are other topics that the witness mentioned

13 before your decision and that concern the things that I know of, and that

14 is the HVO, whether Mostar was under siege or not, the arrest of

15 Mr. Zelic, and so on and so forth. So it is not just this. And the title

16 of the book is literally this and I quote: "Crimes committed by some

17 members of the BiH army (Muslim units) over Croats in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina in 1991" -- or, rather, "from 1991 to 1995."

19 The connection between this topic and this gentleman is the fact

20 that the mortal remains of some of these people have still been missing

21 and I would like to ask him about Grabovica and ask him whether mortal

22 remains of the people from Grabovica, how much he knows about that, which

23 locations have been investigated, which locations haven't been

24 investigated, what number are we talking about and so on and so forth.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25181

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After deliberations, we

2 authorise you to ask questions but only related to specific situations.

3 For instance, with relation to research on Croats who were allegedly

4 killed by members of the BiH army. So anything that is in direct

5 connection to your own work, specific cases without digressing any which

6 way. So you just have 30 minutes, so that there is at least 15 minutes

7 for redirect.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I'd like to ask you the

11 following: My questions, pursuant to the Court's instructions, will be

12 brief, precise, I hope very clear and to the point. So would you please

13 answer likewise, yes, no, or I don't know.

14 All the explanations that you had you gave to the Prosecutor, and

15 if Their Honours would like to ask you for additional explanations, they

16 will do so. You are the witness here and I have been given permission to

17 examine some of the assertions you made during the examination-in-chief.

18 You said that of the 70 persons who were the subject of the

19 exchange, HVO soldiers [indiscernible] in Mostar, the helicopter problem,

20 that there were two or three members of the Croatian army; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When I say members of the Croatian army, does that mean that they

23 were members of the Croatian army who came to fight within the HVO, or

24 were they members of some Croatian unit in the area, in the territory and

25 were then captured? Which? So the question is how do you know that they

Page 25182

1 were actually members of the Croatian army?

2 A. From the report that came in from the prison. Those two who were

3 in Eastern Mostar in prison, it's said that they were members of the

4 Croatian army and not members of the Croatian Defence Council.

5 Q. So you only know it on the basis of the report. You know nothing

6 more about that. You don't know which unit they belonged to; right?

7 A. I know that one of them was from Rijeka. I don't know where the

8 other one was from, and I know their names.

9 Q. Was one Igor Kapor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that Igor Kapor was a member of the 4th Guard's

12 Brigade with headquarters in Split?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. Right. Fine. Now do you know that Igor Kapor, travelling to

15 Kiseljak where he was going to be married, was arrested in Jablanica and

16 transferred to Mostar where he was in prison until your agreement was

17 reached?

18 A. I don't know that, no.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that there were body -- the bodies of

20 nine members of the Croatian army there. Do you also know that from the

21 report, from a report?

22 A. I know that on the basis of the minutes --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exchange --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you said that

Page 25183

1 Igor Kapor was about to get married. Do you know that? Are you sure? Do

2 you have any evidence?

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We have full evidence of

6 that, and if need be we can bring the man in to testify. It was a man who

7 was going there to get married, and he spent one year after that in prison

8 in Mostar but he was going to Kiseljak to get married. That's something

9 that Mr. Petkovic knows and I think we can all testify first-hand when my

10 turn comes, as you say. And we can bring the man in too, depending on the

11 amount of time we have. May I be allowed to continue? Right.

12 Q. So these nine men, do you know whether they were -- died or were

13 killed or whatever you want to call it, that there was a unit to which

14 they belonged, or from the Croatian army did they go as volunteers to

15 fight in the HVO because they were from the area just like I was? Do you

16 know about any of that? Or do you just base your knowledge on the report

17 you received?

18 A. They were killed in combat on the 15th of July.

19 Q. Please, sir, just a moment. I don't need your story. My question

20 is simple. Was it on the basis of the report that you received that you

21 knew that they were Croatian soldiers, or do you know that there was a

22 unit of the Croatian army, or were they members of the HVO who had

23 previously been in the Croatian army? Which of those?

24 A. On the basis of the report that was signed by Mr. Jerko Radic, the

25 deputy to Mr. Pusic in the commission for the exchange of prisoners of war

Page 25184

1 and killed persons, I know that they were seven men, members of the

2 Croatian army and two members of the Croatian Defence Council.

3 Q. Thank you. That clears that up. Yesterday, several times you

4 said that you had problems leaving Sarajevo because it was surrounded,

5 under siege, and you said that Mostar was under siege as well, in an

6 encirclement. Is that what you said?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did you say about Mostar?

9 A. I said that it was blocked, that Mostar was blocked.

10 Q. Right. Now, from the north, the northern exit to Mostar, where

11 was Mostar blocked? So the links and communication between Mostar and

12 Jablanica, the roads, seeing as you arrived in December, how do you know

13 that Mostar was blocked? Where was it blocked, from what time was it

14 blocked, and how was it blocked?

15 A. I know on the basis of my own knowledge and experience that Mostar

16 was blocked, because I could only come to Mostar from Konjic or Jablanica

17 in an APCs, an UNPROFOR APC. I couldn't get into a car in Mostar and

18 drive to Mostar.

19 Now, the military questions I know nothing about that, so there's

20 no use your wasting time on military matters. I can't tell you why, how,

21 who, et cetera, who blocked it. I don't know any of those answers.

22 Q. So logically, from the fact that UNPROFOR drove you from

23 Sarajevo --

24 A. No, that's not what I said.

25 JUDGE PRANDLER: Don't overlap, either of you.

Page 25185

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. If you were to take your own car, get in your car at Jablanica and

3 drive towards Mostar, not UNPROFOR's vehicle, your vehicle, where would

4 you come across a blocked road controlled by the HVO?

5 A. I think that north of Mostar in a locality called Bijelo Polje,

6 that it was impossible to pass through that way on the road, through that

7 road, that you had to take a by-road or go in an APC. I never took a

8 by-road. I either went by UNPROFOR helicopter or an UNPROFOR APC. Either

9 via Jablanica or across the hill on the right bank of the Neretva River.

10 Q. So, right, you don't know who controlled Bijelo Polje. You know

11 nothing about that area.

12 A. Mr. Praljak, I did not say that I did not know who controlled

13 Bijelo Polje.

14 Q. Go on. Tell me then who controlled Bijelo Polje?

15 A. That part of the road was simultaneously under fire or under the

16 control of both the Croatian Defence Council and the Serb units which,

17 through the Rujiste pass, across the Rujiste pass above Bijelo Polje

18 shelled the area and controlled that part of the road.

19 Q. Do you know who was in Bijelo Polje on the right bank of the

20 Neretva -- or, rather, the left bank of the Neretva in Bijelo Polje? Who

21 controlled that area, physically speaking, in physical terms?

22 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, could I just ask that we clarify the

23 time frame that -- I'm assuming we're talking about late December when the

24 witness first made that trip to Medjugorje, but I'd just like to be clear

25 on the time frame that he's talking about.

Page 25186

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please, the time frame,

2 Mr. Praljak.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'm talking exclusively

4 about the time when the gentleman in December arrived down there. I

5 cannot be speaking about any other time.

6 Q. Do you know who controlled the left bank in the area of

7 Bijelo Polje?

8 A. I think.

9 Q. Please, don't think. You either know or you don't know.

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Right. Thank you. Now take a look at the following document,

12 3D 0113. 3D 0113. It's a book. It's called the "Encyclopaedic

13 Dictionary of the Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina" written by

14 Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic. Are those names familiar, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Well, you have my document before you in my binder. The book was

17 printed in Sarajevo. Can we agree that these two men, judging by their

18 names, are Bosniaks, Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic?

19 A. I really don't know how you expect me to know that. I said a

20 moment ago that a man's -- a man who was called Dragan was in fact a

21 Bosniak, which is not logical. I don't think you find it logical either.

22 Q. No.

23 A. Well, Dragan isn't a Bosniak name, generally speaking.

24 Q. My name is this, and you can say no, no, I don't agree --

25 A. I don't know. I don't know the gentlemen, and I don't know what

Page 25187

1 ethnicity they were or are.

2 Q. Witness, the words "I don't know," or, "I don't know what they

3 are," will suffice. You can stop there.

4 Now, look at page 145 of the Croatian -- or, rather, Bosniak text.

5 And it says: "The Croatian Defence Council --" we're not going to read

6 the first part but we'll start with the following sentence. "The armed

7 formations of the Croatian Defence Council joined the united armed forces

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina making up their integral part." And in brackets,

9 it says: "(Article 1, item 2 of the bill having the force of law on

10 regulations of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Official Gazette of

11 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 4/92 and 12/92.)"

12 In the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

13 Croatian Defence Council is also one of its components together with the

14 BH army.

15 Now, my question to is as follows, Mr. Lawyer: Do you know from

16 the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of the war

17 and after the war, too, that the Croatian Defence Council was -- had equal

18 legal status as did the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army according to the

19 provisions published in the Official Gazette of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Is that something you knew about?

21 A. I know that the forces of the Croatian Defence Council and the HOS

22 forces and some other forces pursuant to this provision were considered to

23 be united -- the united armed forces of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. How long for, I do not know.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.

Page 25188

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, do you have an idea when this -- this

2 publication was published? Do you have an idea when this was published?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never seen this publication

4 before, so I have no knowledge about it. I don't know who the authors

5 are. I've never heard of them, and this is the first time that I'm

6 looking at this passage.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Maybe Mr. Praljak would volunteer to add this

8 information.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel,

10 I would be glad to. Could somebody take Mr. Prlic to my room to bring in

11 the original copy of the book? It's to be found in my room, on my

12 suitcase, number 35, and I can continue with my question.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, until we're waiting for the book -- while we're waiting for

16 the book, to see the year and date of its publication, let's return for a

17 moment to one other matter, and it is this: Yesterday, you said that an

18 exchange for these 70 HVO soldiers and 2, as you say, soldiers from the

19 Croatian army had been agreed. Listen to me carefully and then tell me

20 whether that's what it was. And then the families of those people who

21 were captured in Vranica and went missing, they, you say, according to

22 you, they set an ultimatum and demanded or conditioned Vranica with the

23 release of these 70 people. Is that what you said?

24 A. There wasn't an agreement for an exchange. That's not what I

25 said. What I said was this: That the families from Vranica laid down

Page 25189

1 conditions that they be freed, these 72 members of the HVO and HV, with

2 the release of Vranica, because it was believed that the guys from Vranica

3 were still alive.

4 Q. But you don't know whether there was an agreement for an exchange?

5 Do you or don't you?

6 A. At the level of the state commission in which I took part, no, it

7 was not.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. At the level of your commission. You don't

9 know that there was an agreement for an exchange.

10 A. There was no agreement. It had not been agreed.

11 Q. All right. Fine. Now, the helicopters that arrived up there, and

12 we'll see later on according to an agreement to release these 70 persons,

13 then according to your words the families of these 70 people who were

14 waiting for them to arrive blocked the helicopters. Is that what you know

15 happened?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Judge Trechsel, Sarajevo

19 2000. The book, "The Encyclopaedic Dictionary of the Defence of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina" by Ahmet Kasumovic and Camil Huseinbasic was published

21 in Sarajevo in the year 2000.

22 Q. Right. Yesterday you said something as follows, and this is a bit

23 of maths now. When you came down there for talks with the gentlemen, that

24 according to your information the HVO released 3.000 prisoners, regardless

25 of who they were and what type of prisoners they were, and that according

Page 25190

1 to what you knew then 700 remained. That's what you said, that you had

2 information that the HVO held a further 700 persons captive.

3 A. I -- on the 23rd and 24th of December I took over some of these

4 released persons from Gabela and Dretelj, and there were a total of 3.000

5 of them.

6 Q. Right. Now, afterwards you said that the Croatian side insisted

7 upon a ratio of 1:1. Is that what you said?

8 A. Throughout the Croatian side insisted on a 1:1 ratio.

9 Q. Right. Now something's wrong with the arithmetic there, the

10 maths. If somebody, according to what you said, gives 3.000 people over,

11 or prisoners, regardless of their status, and cannot get the 70 from

12 Mostar, then where is this 1:1 ratio? So what did the Croatian side

13 receive in return for releasing these 3.000 people if, according to what

14 you said, it wasn't even able to obtain the 70 plus the 2 whatever?

15 Explain that to me, please.

16 A. You've asked me what the Croatian side got in return. They

17 received a reputation that they had freed over 3.000 civilian prisoners.

18 Among them there were children and elderly.

19 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. So this was not 1:1 mathematics.

20 They just gained reputation. Let's move on.

21 I'm going to ask you this: You were in Sarajevo. Do you know

22 that on the 26th of October, 1993, the official government, i.e., the

23 government that managed to get together after a certain while, had a

24 showdown with Topalovic, Musan, also known as Caco, the commander of the

25 10th Mountain Brigade, he was killed in the process. Are you aware of

Page 25191

1 that?

2 A. I know that the -- the official government in Sarajevo, as you

3 call it, tried and did carry out the arrest of the commander of one of the

4 Sarajevo brigades and some of his troops that had stopped recognising the

5 command of main army staff. I don't know the date.

6 Q. The commander of the 10th Mountain Brigade, Musan Topalovic, also

7 shown as Caco, was he killed on that occasion? Do you know or don't you?

8 A. He died in the process.

9 Q. Okay. He died. Stop. Do you know that -- sir, do you know that

10 nine other men were killed, they were members of the military police, of

11 the official forces of the Sarajevo government who wanted to settle

12 account with this person? Do you know that?

13 A. During the arrest of this commander and his renegades is certain

14 number of members of either the military or the civilian police were

15 killed and I don't know their exact number.

16 Q. Do you know that on that same occasion the commander of the 9th

17 Mountain Brigade, Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo, surrendered and was

18 arrested?

19 A. I don't know whether there were any other arrests or not.

20 Q. So you don't know. Thank you very much. Do you know that at the

21 beginning of May 1993, Juka Prazina, the commander of an army brigade in

22 Sarajevo, on Mount Igman captured at the forward command post of the Main

23 Staff of the BiH army, i.e., beat Colonel Vehbija Karic and his son Emir?

24 Do you know that?

25 A. I'm not sure that he was the brigade commander. And as for the

Page 25192

1 rest of your question, I can confirm that I know that there was something

2 with Mr. Vehbija Karic.

3 Q. Do you know that --

4 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm sorry, Mr. Praljak, to interrupt you but I

5 would like to recall that certain rules should be maintained here in the

6 courtroom. Now your Defence has given 30 minutes, or at least part of the

7 30 minutes to Madam Nozica, and as far as I know, of course now we have

8 only 15 minutes to -- to cope with, and in the meantime the Prosecution

9 should also be given the time for the direct. So I ask you,

10 Mr. President, to act accordingly. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge

12 Prandler --

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I would

14 just like to say for the transcript that Mr. Coric's Defence has given me

15 their 30 minutes and not Mr. Praljak. Mr. Praljak has kept all of his

16 time.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll speed up things and go

18 very quickly through the rest of my cross-examination.

19 Q. Sir, how many men, how many Serbs who have been killed in Sarajevo

20 by different units in Kazani and elsewhere at this moment, the Serb side,

21 how many Serbs are they looking for that went missing from Sarajevo?

22 A. According to the records of applications by the families of these

23 people with the Red Cross, the number is 320 plus-minus 10 per cent. I'm

24 not sure because at this moment the number is somewhat lower because a

25 number of them had been located, exhumed, identified and handed over to

Page 25193

1 their families. But we're talking about a total number throughout the

2 war, that number is about 320 of the people missing during the war.

3 Q. Sir, please listen to my question. The Serbian state commission,

4 how many Serbs missing from Sarajevo are still being looked for? How many

5 applications are still on your desk with the names, the date of

6 disappearance that were published in the Serbian Oslobodjenje? How many

7 of such requests are on the desk of the Bosnian commission for missing

8 persons from the Serbian side from Banja Luka? This is what I'm asking

9 you. Give us that number.

10 A. The situation is not the same. Are you talking about the total

11 number or the current total number? This is what I'm asking you, because

12 a significant number of people have been located.

13 Q. The total number.

14 A. Throughout the war?

15 Q. Yes, throughout the war how many people are Serbian side looking

16 for?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Thank you very much. The total number of such requests that refer

19 to the people who have been located so far and not located was that number

20 over 2.000 or less than that?

21 A. In the perception of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic who was in this

22 courtroom, that number was about 10.000.

23 Q. I apologise. You are wasting my time. You are making a fool out

24 of me. Answer my question. Was it more than 2.000 or less than 2.000.

25 Let's leave Biljana Plavsic out of this.

Page 25194

1 A. I said that I don't know the number that the Serbian commission is

2 looking for.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know how many people the Serbian

4 commission is still looking for of those people who during the war between

5 1991 and 1995 up to the crime in Srebrenica, how many Serbs that were

6 killed in the territory of Bratunac and Srebrenica? Do you know that

7 number?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer the question and

9 then we will call upon Mr. Stringer for redirect because you have used up

10 your time, Mr. Praljak.

11 Please answer the question. I'm speaking to the witness. Perhaps

12 you've forgotten the question.

13 Mr. Praljak, would you repeat your question, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't want to waste any more

15 of your time. The Serbian commission is looking for less than 200

16 Serbs -- 2.000 Serbs that went missing from the territories of Bratunac

17 and Srebrenica.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. My last question. Look at the book that you have in front of you.

20 Tell me, how many people are the Croatian side looking for? I am talking

21 about the people who are still considered missing from the places such as

22 Bugojno. I would be able to give you more if I had more time, but let's

23 say Bugojno and Konjic, just for the sake of this exercise? Bugojno is

24 page 35. And Grabovica. Let's dwell upon these two. How many from

25 Grabovica, how many --

Page 25195

1 MR. STRINGER: I can -- may I --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: I could perhaps just suggest -- the General's

5 asking how many Croats are being looked for this in these two places,

6 Bugojno, Konjic. Perhaps without referring to the book, because I don't

7 think the witness needs to look at the book to do that, if he could just

8 answer the last question that came from General Praljak, which was

9 regarding how many people are still considered missing from Bugojno and

10 also Konjic. Perhaps if the witness could answer that last question, then

11 I could use the time that's left for a brief redirect.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please answer that last

13 question. How many individuals disappeared or were missing from Bugojno

14 and Konjic, at least to your knowledge.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Pusic sent me a list of a total

16 of 207 Croats that went missing in the whole of the territory that the BiH

17 army controlled throughout the conflict. I'm talking about 207 civilians

18 and members of the HVO, and that's the list that I received from

19 Mr. Pusic. And now a very specific answer to your question.

20 I know for Bugojno 21, and those are the people that we discussed

21 yesterday and they're still missing. I'm not sure about Grabovica but

22 it's between 10 and 15. And let me tell you this, why not, I believe that

23 those are the bodies of the victims that were partially burnt and some of

24 them thrown into the river Neretva after the crime that was committed over

25 them.