071212ED

Page 25645

1 We shall have a break in an hour and a half approximately. If at

2 any point in time you do not feel well, please do not hesitate to let me

3 know so that I can stop the hearing.

4 I shall now give the floor to the Prosecution as part of the 92

5 ter procedure.

6 MR. FLYNN: Good afternoon to Your Honours, to everybody else

7 around the courtroom.

8 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

10 MR. FLYNN: To follow normal procedure with the 92 ter procedures

11 which we have been adopting throughout, I will start with a brief summary,

12 Your Honours, if that's in order.

13 In this case, the witness was the president of the community in

14 Stupni Do in 1993. The Croatian Defence Council took control of Vares in

15 July 1992. They took over all the political and military functions in the

16 municipality. The witness stated that the situation in Stupni Do and the

17 takeover of Vares by the Croatian Defence Council.

18 He states that after the arrival of the refugees from Kakanj, the

19 situation for the villagers in Stupni Do became more difficult. They were

20 often harassed when they tried to go into town. He testified -- he

21 testifies on the ultimatum given by the Croatian Defence Council to the

22 villagers of Stupni Do.

23 People in Stupni Do were evacuated about 20 days in fear of an

24 attack following that ultimatum. However, the Croatian Defence Council

25 did not attack on that occasion. In July, the Croatian Defence Council

Page 25646

1 military and political authority told the villagers that the trenches had

2 to be filled and the villagers had to stay in Stupni Do.

3 Afterwards, the situation for the villagers became even more

4 difficult. Several days before the attack on Stupni Do, six Armija,

5 Bosnian army, soldiers were arrested at the Croatian Defence Council

6 check-points in Patafan [phoen].

7 Small correction here. On the 22nd of October 1993 --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down somewhat, Mr. Flynn, please.

9 MR. FLYNN: On the 22nd of October 1993, the brother of a Croat

10 woman came to take her and her husband away. On the 23rd of October

11 1993,, around 8.00, the Croatian Defence Council launched an attack

12 against the village. Witness told his family to go to a shelter, and he

13 went to a trench. The Croatian Defence Council used anti-aircraft guns.

14 They also used inflammable ammunition. The bullet would immediately burst

15 into flames and started to burn the houses.

16 About an hour later, he went to his house and told the villagers

17 to try to escape because one line of defence had been broken. He went

18 back to the forest and stayed there until late afternoon, early evening.

19 I put a small insertion in here. He returned to Stupni Do on the

20 23rd of October 1993, and he saw that his house had been burnt and

21 property destroyed.

22 He then went to join the others and left the village during the

23 night. The witness indicated on a map the name of the owner of each

24 houses and the farm in the village, and he gave -- he also gave a list of

25 the villagers and their stature.

Page 25647

1 That's a brief summary of the testimony which he gave.

2 Q. Witness, the president asked you whether you had given testimony

3 before any other court, either in your own country or here.

4 Do you remember, did you testify before the Trial Chamber in the

5 case of Kordic in 1999 in this -- in The Hague?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And at the time you gave that testimony, did you answer the

8 questions posed to you by the parties truthfully and correctly?

9 A. I don't understand the question.

10 Q. When you gave your evidence during the Kordic case, you were asked

11 a number of questions by the Prosecution and by the other parties, and you

12 gave answers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were those answers truthful and correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did you give the answers freely, without any force or

17 coercion?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you remember that when you travelled here to The Hague, a

20 few days ago, you met with myself and an investigator?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And at that time, were you given an opportunity to discuss the

23 testimony which you had given during the Kordic case?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And having gone through your testimony, does that testimony --

Page 25648

1 does the transcript accurately reflect what you told to the Trial Chamber

2 during the Kordic case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do the contents of the transcript reflect what you would tell

5 the Trial Chamber here today had you to give all that evidence over again?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I think yesterday, during our meeting, you expanded a little

8 on that testimony, and we'll come to that shortly; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 MR. FLYNN: And, Your Honours, you know that as part of the 92 bis

11 procedure, we've already tendered the transcript in the Kordic case which

12 is Exhibit P10015.

13 Now, I've prepared a booklet of documents referred to in the 92

14 bis annex. Not all of the documents will be shown to the witness as a

15 result of your 92 bis decision but some of them will, and I propose to

16 deal with that now.

17 Q. Witness, I just want to ask you briefly at this point some general

18 questions and to show you some documents; and if time allows, we'll come

19 back to the actual events happening in Stupni Do on the 23rd of October.

20 But if you remember, during your testimony to the Kordic trial

21 panel, you stated that, in your village, you had approximately 36 to 37

22 soldiers in the defence unit poorly armed with little ammunition, and that

23 was on page 10895; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you went on to say that the attack on Stupni Do started with

Page 25649

1 small arms and artillery fire on the 23rd of October, on page 10906; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And between pages 10904 and 10909, you give an account of what

5 happened: The fighting, what you saw, and what you heard. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On then you told the Trial Chamber that on returning on the

9 evening of the 23rd of October, you found your -- to Stupni Do, that you

10 found your house burnt and properties destroyed, and that's on page 10908

11 of the Kordic transcript; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, can you tell us, as a result of the attack on Stupni Do on

14 the 23rd of October 1993, were there any deaths caused as a result of this

15 attack?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us how many people were killed?

18 A. Thirty-eight.

19 Q. And when did you actually get back into your village after that

20 first day on the 23rd of October 1993? When did you come back to Stupni

21 Do?

22 A. I went back there in the early evening hours; in fact, it was in

23 the late afternoon. It was raining, it was foggy, it was getting dark.

24 Yes, it was getting dark.

25 Q. And did you stay very long?

Page 25650

1 A. I stayed there for two hours, maybe two and a half.

2 Q. And when was the next time that you returned to the village?

3 A. I went back after Vares was liberated, the second or the third day

4 after the liberation. That might have been the 4th or the 5th of November

5 of the same year.

6 Q. And can you tell us when the bodies of the people, the 38 people,

7 were found in the village, if you know?

8 A. The first group of people that were found by the Nor-Bat group

9 soldiers were put in APCs and were taken to the town cemetery in Visoko to

10 be autopsied. The next group, so the rest of the 38 bodies in addition to

11 the first 16, were found in the burnt-down houses. They had to be dug

12 out, and they were identified by their next of kin.

13 Q. The Panel have heard evidence that UNPROFOR, when it entered

14 Stupni Do on the 27th of October, found 16 bodies. Can you explain to the

15 Panel why the other bodies, the other 22 bodies, would not have been

16 recovered or would not have been visible, if you can?

17 A. Yes. The HVO soldiers wanted to cover up the crime, and they

18 threw the dead bodies on to the burning houses -- into the burning

19 houses. So the houses collapsed once they burnt down, and they -- the

20 debris covered the bodies. They deliberately burned those people in order

21 to cover up the crime. This is what happened in my father's house. So in

22 my father's house, I found four bodies --

23 Q. Were you personally involved --

24 A. -- charred bodies.

25 Q. Were you personally involved in digging those bodies out?

Page 25651

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you involved in digging any other bodies, apart from those

3 four, out?

4 A. Yes, yes. UNPROFOR soldiers assisted me, too, and so did the

5 locals, the relatives of those people.

6 Q. And over what period of time did this discovery of bodies and the

7 digging out of bodies that had not been found initially by UNPROFOR, how

8 long did this last?

9 A. About a month after the attack.

10 Q. And are we to assume, therefore, that a month after the attack,

11 all 38 bodies had been recovered?

12 A. A total of 37 bodies were found. An elderly woman was never

13 found. We never managed to find her. And, later on, based on the

14 statement of Radomir Rosevic, a neighbour of hers who was in America at

15 the time, on his return, he explained that the 38th victim had been killed

16 and thrown on to a hay stack that was then burnt down. So, in fact, they

17 first set fire to the hay stack, and then threw the woman's body on to the

18 hay stack, and that's why we were not able to find the 38th victim.

19 Q. Now, sometime after the events in Stupni Do, was there a

20 commission formed in the municipality to investigate the number of people

21 who were killed and the damages caused to the properties, by the local

22 authorities?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And did you take part in that process?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25652

1 Q. And did you prepare and present documents and lists for that

2 commission?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you a commissioner or sitting on the commission or were you

5 an official working with it or were you a separate layman outside the

6 commission?

7 A. I was a member of that commission.

8 Q. And can you tell us how did the commission operate? How did it

9 gather -- how did it gather its information and data?

10 A. Most of the information we got from the relatives of those who had

11 been killed were from the survivors of the attack. In most of the cases,

12 they were able to pinpoint the exact location where a body might be found,

13 body of their mothers, fathers, children, whoever, so that we were able to

14 locate the bodies with a fair degree of certainty.

15 The biggest problem we faced was when we tried to dig out the

16 bodies because the houses were collapsing. In some cases, the victims

17 were elderly, infirm people, who could not move, so they had -- the

18 ceilings would just cave in and collapse on top of them. It would take us

19 two or three days to dig, to get to those bodies, to the site where they

20 were when they were killed, and when they were set on fire.

21 Q. So did the commission or members of the commission go to the field

22 and inspect the site of the crime, the location of where bodies were

23 purported to have been found, and interview the family members?

24 A. Yes. Well, mostly the relatives were present there.

25 Q. I'd like -- you'll see a booklet in front of you of documents, and

Page 25653

1 there are a number of tabs in it, like the booklet which you had

2 yesterday.

3 Would you turn to the -- the third tab in the booklet. It

4 reads, "8461."

5 MR. FLYNN: For the record, it's P08461.

6 Q. The first part will be in English and if you proceed on you'll

7 find the Bosnian version.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise this document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is this a list of those killed in Stupni Do on the attack on 23rd

14 of October 1993?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this prepared and signed by you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Have you any doubts that this list is accurate?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Have you any reason to believe that any of the people mentioned in

21 this list are still alive and living elsewhere?

22 A. No, no, no.

23 Q. In fact, I think there are a number of people with the name

24 Mahmutovic mentioned on the list, if you go down to 16 and 17. Are these

25 relatives of yours?

Page 25654

1 A. Yes. The person listed under number 16 is my brother, and the

2 person listed under number 17 is my father.

3 Q. And did you have an opportunity of viewing any of the bodies of

4 the people mentioned in this list?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. How many of the people on the list did you see?

7 A. I saw all of them, with the exception of Likic, Hafit [phoen], the

8 38th victim.

9 Q. Based on your observations and what were you told by family

10 members, were you left in no doubt but that the body you viewed was the

11 body of the name attached to that person?

12 A. Well, no, there was no doubt.

13 MR. FLYNN: Could you turn now to the next exhibit, 8462, please?

14 Q. And if you go to the last page of the Bosnian version you'll find

15 a signature at the bottom of the page. Please tell us if you recognise

16 that signature.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that your signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this list another list that you prepared of destroyed and

21 burned houses that were burned in the attack on Stupni Do?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I think when we went through it yesterday, there was a total

24 of approximately 76 individuals who had their property damaged; isn't that

25 correct?

Page 25655

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And, again, for the purposes of preparing this list, did you take

3 information from the occupants or owners of the properties to attribute --

4 that would lead to you attribute it to the attack on Stupni Do on the

5 23rd-24th of October?

6 A. The village was not big. I knew all the villagers, all the

7 locals. I was in every house, and I knew well how people lived there and

8 what possessions they had, what movables and immovables they had.

9 Q. Have you any doubt that any of the property mentioned in this list

10 that you're looking at now was not caused as a result of the attack on

11 Stupni Do?

12 A. Could you please repeat your question?

13 Q. Looking at the list that you prepared, have you any doubt --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- that the property was not damaged as a result of the attack on

16 Stupni Do?

17 A. All the property in the list was destroyed or burned down

18 completely.

19 Q. And if you go then to the next list, it's 8463.

20 MR. FLYNN: For the record, P08463.

21 Q. Tell me when you have it.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The title of this is, "A list of devastated cattle found during

24 the attack on Stupni Do." Is this another list and document that you

25 prepared for the benefit of the commission, signed by you on the second

Page 25656

1 page?

2 A. Yes, yes. This is my signature, yes.

3 Q. And, again, are you satisfied that the contents of this list are

4 truthful and accurate and that all of the damage or all the loss of

5 property referred to on the list can be attributed to the attack on Stupni

6 Do?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I want you to look at one more exhibit for me, please, if you

9 go to Exhibit 8377. When you have it, please tell me.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell the Panel what this is, please?

12 A. A special commission was appointed on behalf of Vares

13 municipality, with Muhamed Sabanovic, architect and engineer; Omer Kadric,

14 engineer and economist; and Hajrudin Vezir, a construction engineer. They

15 toured all the torched houses in the local commune of Stupni Do.

16 They measured the area, they took photos of all the houses, and

17 compiled a record based on what they had seen in the field. Every

18 property owner, every house owner, if they were alive, was present,

19 together with them, so they could measure everything and they could make

20 the record of the damage that had been inflicted upon every household.

21 This is just one of the series of those records, and this record

22 reflects the damage to my family house.

23 Q. And if we go to the last part in the record, we have a photograph.

24 Is this a -- does this photograph depict your family home following the

25 attack on Stupni Do?

Page 25657

1 A. Yes. This was a completely new house, and a completely equipped

2 house.

3 Q. Now, on the subject of the houses, can you tell us if any of the

4 houses in the village including your house had anywhere to shelter in the

5 events of an attack? Had they any special part set aside?

6 A. Yes. Under the law that prevailed in former Yugoslavia, if you

7 were to be given a building permit, your design had to incorporate a

8 shelter, a shelter in case there was a war or a chemical attack.

9 So every newer house, i.e., recently constructed house, a house

10 that was built after 1980-something, I don't know the exact year, but I

11 know that every new development had to have a concrete shelter that had to

12 be adjacent to the cellar of the new-built; otherwise, the commission that

13 had to approve your house for habitation would not approve it if it did

14 not have the so-called atomic shelter.

15 Q. And would it be correct to say that she is shelters were stronger

16 than the other part of the house?

17 A. Yes. They were made of reinforced concrete, and they mostly did

18 not have any windows. They only had a door and some ventilation shafts.

19 Q. And did any of these houses -- did any of these rooms or basements

20 have outside protection?

21 A. Yes. My house, for example, had very thick wooden panels on the

22 outer windows that protected it from shelling. The house that you're

23 looking at, it had windows at the bottom part and they were sheltered with

24 sandbags; and, behind those, there were wooden panels, very thick wooden

25 beams, in case of attack.

Page 25658

1 Q. And can you tell us, could any of the rooms or basements within

2 the village, which were used for these protective -- as these protective

3 shelters, could they have been used or converted into a fortified command

4 post or a bunker from which one could conduct a determined defence?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Now, you told us -- you told the Trial Panel in the Kordic case

7 that you came down to your family, and you told your family to leave for

8 the forest. Where had your family been at that time?

9 A. My family was in the atomic shelter in this very house. What you

10 see beneath in white brick, that was the basement, and the shelter was

11 under the ground and it was made of reinforced concrete.

12 Q. And apart from your family - and I don't need to you mention any

13 names just yet - but apart from your family, was anybody else in this

14 basement, sheltering with your family?

15 A. There were neighbours. In this particular street, there were five

16 more families. So all those families were there, save for the handicapped

17 persons who stayed at home. There were two such people. So apart from

18 those two people, everybody else was together with my family, a total of

19 17 of them.

20 Q. Now, so you had this protective room where they were hiding.

21 Despite the fact that they were hiding there, were your family safe or did

22 something happen to them during the attack on Stupni Do?

23 A. My family was safe from shelling and from any external influences.

24 However, when the HVO troops arrived, they started going from one house to

25 the next, from one basement to the next, and chased people out of those

Page 25659

1 premises. They killed people in front of their houses. They burned them

2 alive. They had lined them up first.

3 Out of the 17 that I mentioned, four were killed; three fled on my

4 order to the forest beneath the houses, a small thicket; the rest were

5 lined up, plundered, raped. Behind this house was my brother's house.

6 The rest -- the remainder of them were locked in that house, and they

7 torched the house. These people burned alive. Luckily enough, they still

8 remained alive. They didn't die; and how this came about, only they can

9 tell you.

10 Q. And can you tell us that in the shelter on that occasion, do you

11 know if there was somebody by the name of Rasida Likic, in your shelter?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did she survive the attack?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know what happened to her?

16 A. She was killed because she had told them, "Don't touch us," and I

17 quote her: "You can take anything from the house, just leave us alone,"

18 then one of the soldiers fired a bullet into her, and that's how she died.

19 Q. And was this something you witnessed or something that you came to

20 learn about later?

21 A. I wasn't there. I learned that subsequently from the survivors.

22 Q. And can you tell us, does the name Mehmed Likic mean anything to

23 you? Was this person also in the shelter on that occasion?

24 A. Yes. Those people were actually disabled.

25 Q. And did Mehmed Likic survive the attack?

Page 25667

1 suffered a very --

2 A. Because when they handed over the weapons, the other side didn't

3 really trust, didn't believe that all the weapons had been handed over,

4 and that is quite natural. So the villagers had to leave, go to the

5 neighbouring villages. All the men of military age had to do that. They

6 had to go to the neighbouring villages to the BH army-controlled

7 territory.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you had a

9 hunting rifle and that you were very badly equipped. What could you do

10 against people who were better armed, who were greater in number? Wasn't

11 it dangerous to just keep a few weapons, as you did?

12 A. Well, we had the superior command, too, in the village of

13 Dabravina, and we notified them that night. The weapons that were

14 obtained with such great difficulties, we didn't want to and we couldn't

15 surrender them.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the Supreme

17 Command had told you, "Keep your weapons," is that right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So who will begin?

20 Ms. Alaburic.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Witness, everybody in

22 the courtroom, good afternoon to all of you.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

24 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, My name is Vesna Alaburic. I'm an attorney from

25 Zagreb, and I'm representing General Petkovic at this trial. I will be

Page 25668

1 asking you some questions primarily regarding the defence of Stupni Do,

2 and some questions generally related to the defence in accordance with the

3 regulations and rules of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 As a follow-up to Judge Antonetti's question whether the military

5 unit in Stupni Do was part of the Territorial Defence or the BH army, and

6 you said -- you gave your reply, but I would just like you to explain to

7 the Judges what happened with the terms, the names that were used.

8 So I would like to ask you to look at document 4D 404, 404, in the

9 set of documents that you have. You will see there are stickers at the

10 side. That's 404.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I don't know whether you've seen this document, but I'm sure that

13 you will be familiar with the contents.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] This document has already been

15 admitted as an exhibit. This is an order of the Presidency of the

16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina signed by Alija Izetbegovic dated the 23rd

17 of June 1992, where it says that the name, the Territorial Defence of the

18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, shall be changed to the Army of the

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, could you please tell us, this is precisely what

21 you told His Honour Judge Antonetti, that the Territorial Defence became

22 the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So from June 1992 onwards, we can say, we can only speak about the

25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in accordance with this decision of the BH

Page 25669

1 Presidency; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Fine. Could we now look at the defence of the village of Stupni

4 Do. Mr. Mahmutovic, could you please tell us who was the commander of

5 the BH army unit in Stupni Do?

6 A. Esel [phoen] Likic.

7 Q. You told us that he was one of the six members of the army that

8 were arrested on the 18th of October 1993; is that so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Ekrem Mahmutovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us who that is?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please

14 make pauses between question and answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the commander of the tactical

16 group according to my information; but at the time of the attack, he was

17 not there. He was no where near the area in fact. He was not anywhere

18 near Stupni Do or Vares.

19 Q. So can we then say that he was the commander of a military units

20 of the BH army? We don't want to go into all the details whether it's a

21 tactical group.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please

23 not overlap.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I would like to draw your

Page 25670

1 attention, Your Honours, that under 4D 869, I've prepared for you a

2 statement by Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic.

3 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, let me now put to you some of the things that he

4 said, and now we will try to determine what is actually true and what is

5 not.

6 Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic, in his statement, said that after the arrest

7 of Mr. Likic, who was the commander of the unit of the BH army in Stupni

8 Do, that actually you took over his post as the president of the local

9 commune.

10 Regardless of the fact that you answered a similar question asked

11 to you by Judge Antonetti, can you please tell us whether this statement

12 made by Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic is correct or not?

13 A. No, it is not true.

14 Q. Does that mean that after Mr. Likic's arrest in Stupni Do, there

15 was no commander of all those squads in this BH army platoon, so there was

16 no one commander?

17 A. I explained to His Honour that there were just the squad leaders.

18 I know one of them. I know -- and I gave the name to the Trial Chamber.

19 Suad Likic was the commander of one of the squads.

20 Q. So you're trying to tell us that there was no single commander in

21 Stupni Do who would be in command of all --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second, please. Please

23 make a break between questions and answers because you're speaking the

24 same language and we have a problem then.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25671

1 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, we understand what you told us about the squads.

2 My question now is whether what you answered meant that there was no

3 single person who would be in charge or superior to all of the commanders

4 of those squads.

5 A. I know that this one person was the commander or leader of one

6 squad. Now, whether he commanded all of them during the attack, I don't

7 know that. We didn't have any radio stations, we didn't have any

8 Motorolas. But at the time of the attack, there was a large circle around

9 the village. So a lot of the front line was not covered, and there was

10 virtually or absolutely no coordination among the soldiers. We had some

11 trenches that were four or five kilometres away from each other.

12 Q. Yes. Fine. We will go back to the trenches, to the radio

13 stations and the radio sets and the communication that you were table to

14 maintain. But now I would like to address the issue of weapons. You

15 mentioned that you had a hunting rifle.

16 Could you please tell me other members of the BH army, what kind

17 of weapons did they have?

18 A. As for the exact number of weapons, I don't know that. But that

19 would be up to maybe 30 rifles: Old rifles, newer rifles, PAP rifles,

20 semi-automatic rifles, and there were maybe five or six. The PAP rifles

21 are semi-automatic rifles, there were maybe five or six automatic rifles,,

22 and there was a mortar that was never used. It was not used on that day

23 either.

24 Q. So this would be the 60-millimetre mortar?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 25672

1 Q. What about the rockets launcher, what would that be?

2 A. I don't know about any rocket launchers.

3 Q. You never heard of it?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. And did you hear about anyone being in possession of hand grenades

6 or bombs in the village?

7 A. People did have hand grenades. They would buy them. They

8 actually, the two hand grenades that one of the household heads had,

9 actually saved many lives because the massacre would have been even worse.

10 Q. And could you please tell us how many bullets did you have?

11 A. I personally had 80 bullets for this rifle, the hunting carbine

12 rifle. Now, as to how many bullets there were in the village, how many

13 bullets the BH army soldiers had, I can't tell you that.

14 Q. Could you please tell us how long did the effort of the HVO to

15 take the village of Stupni Do last? How long did the fighting last, half

16 an hour, an hour?

17 A. From 8.00 -- ten minutes past 8.00 in the morning until the

18 afternoon, maybe two or three in the afternoon.

19 Q. So that would mean that the fighting took maybe five or six hours?

20 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't have a watch on me, but I know that

21 it did last some time.

22 Q. Fine. Please tell us, although you don't remember and you don't

23 know how many HVO troops were involved, but could you please tell us

24 whether the HVO soldiers were well armed?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 25673

1 Q. Could you explain to us how come that it took the well-armed and

2 probably numerous HVO forces six hours to take the village of Stupni Do?

3 Was the resistance offered by the BH army so fierce that the fighting had

4 to last six hours?

5 A. The lads that were deployed above the village in the Lipa sector,

6 as it was called, offered the fiercest resistance. They resisted for the

7 whole of that day. Actually, that trench was never taken. As for the

8 rest, the village is surrounded by the woods. It took four hours of

9 fighting before they actually managed to leave the wooded area and get to

10 the meadows, because the village is where you first have the houses, then

11 you have two or three kilometres of meadows, and then the wooded area.

12 And, of course, the HVO soldiers didn't really feel like going out

13 in the open. I think that was the reason why they didn't take the village

14 all that quickly.

15 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, could you please tell me, do you know how many HVO

16 soldiers were killed or wounded in this attack?

17 A. No, I don't know that.

18 Q. But do you know that the HVO suffered casualties?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And can you tell us how you know that?

21 A. Well, I was told later that ambulances came in after Abid Likic --

22 after the wounding by the hand grenade, and then they picked up those

23 casualties, dead or wounded, and took them to Vares.

24 Q. In one of the reports on the people who were killed, you said that

25 there were 220 inhabitants in the village and eight displaced persons at

Page 25674

1 the time of the attack. Is that an accurate piece of information?

2 A. Yes, but this number may have varied by two or one, two or three,

3 because people left through -- left the village. They went out through

4 the woods in order to get some food, because we were no longer allowed to

5 go to Vares and to buy food there.

6 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, regarding the knowledge of the HVO plan for the

7 attack on Stupni Do, I will now read a part of the statement by Ekrem

8 Mahmutovic.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] In the Croatian -- or rather,

10 B/C/S, that would be on page 11 and 12; and in the English version, that

11 is on page 10.

12 Q. So Ekrem Mahmutovic says the following, I quote: "On the 21st of

13 October 1993, when the HVO unit arrived in Vares, the War Presidency in

14 exile ordered the evacuation of the village of Stupni Do because there was

15 a rumour that the HVO might attack Stupni Do and Dastansko."

16 So, Mr. Mahmutovic, have you ever heard of there decision of the

17 War Presidency in exile on the evacuation of Stupni Do or not?

18 A. The evacuation plan did exist. But that evening we did not

19 receive any orders to evacuate, or anything else; except, except for

20 something that I could only guess or speculate about when the brother of a

21 Croat who was Croat woman who was married to a neighbour of mine by the

22 name of Alija. When he came into the village, picked up his sister, and

23 Alija, his brother-in-law, he took them away from Stupni Do.

24 So it was some kind of an alarm. It rang the alarm bell that

25 there might be an attack. I didn't know anything about the evacuation,

Page 25675

1 and I didn't do anything to that end.

2 Q. Fine. Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic says in his statement that this code

3 for the evacuation was broadcast via radio communications to Stupni Do and

4 that the signalman in Stupni Do radioed back that the villagers refused to

5 leave the village. But they insisted that if they come under an attack,

6 they should get assistance.

7 A. I don't know about that.

8 Q. Let's first focus on radio communications. Not only Ekrem

9 Mahmutovic but many other witnesses spoke about radio communications and

10 the signalman who was in Stupni Do.

11 Mr. Mahmutovic, do you know anything about the fact that Stupni Do

12 had radio communications with the -- with any BH structures, the

13 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or whatever?

14 A. Yes. They did have radio set. It was an RUP 1, 2 or 3. I don't

15 know what it was called. They had it.

16 Q. [No interpretation] --

17 A. Just a moment, let me finish.

18 Nobody from the military structures notified me about anything,

19 including this thing that there was this warning.

20 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, but were you aware that it was possible to

21 communicate, or rather, that there was this communication via radio that

22 night, regardless of whether you were involved in it or not?

23 A. Yes, I did know that.

24 Q. Can you tell us what did you know? Were you aware of this order

25 and the refusal to obey it?

Page 25676

1 A. No, I didn't know that.

2 Q. What did you know about this exchange of messages?

3 A. I have to wait for the interpretation.

4 I knew that there was a radio set. All the local communes had

5 such sets. All the local communes in the Vares municipality had radio

6 sets or radio stations. They were used for civilian or military purposes

7 alike. If somebody got sick, it would be used. While the HVO was in

8 Vares, we communicated with them. If anyone got sick, then that person

9 could be taken down.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about the technical possibility to communicate.

11 I'm asking you about the contents of the radio messages that were

12 exchanged on the 22nd of October 1993, on the eve of the attack.

13 Were you aware that anyone was sending any messages to anyone that

14 some warnings were sent out and that somebody in the village decided to --

15 that the population should remain?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please

18 not overlap?

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The answer was no.

20 Q. I'm going to show you another statements by the same person.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] This is page 10 in the English

22 text.

23 Q. Ekrem Mahmutovic says, and I quote: "I was in Breza. Around 1900

24 hours on the 22nd October 1993, when we received a message from Stupni Do

25 sent by radio that something might happen in Stupni Do. Husnija

Page 25677

1 Mahmutovic ordered his signalsman to send a coded message to Breza, and

2 the message was that Alija Likic had informed him that Stupni Do would be

3 attacked by the HVO."

4 Mr. Mahmutovic, can you confirm whether this is the truth or not?

5 A. Whatever Ekrem Mahmutovic stated, he learned only subsequently,

6 much, much later. And whatever he stated here, I believe is a blatant lie

7 because after this crime, people exaggerated, distorted things. And since

8 he was personally an inhabitant of that local commune, as a commander, he

9 should have known more.

10 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, I don't know what the relationship between the two

11 of you is. I only want to hear the truth, and I want to hear whether

12 there is accord or discord between you in these matters.

13 Tell me, please, whether you have any knowledge that the villagers

14 of the village had meetings, that they tried to decide what to do, and

15 that they made a certain decision on the eve of the attack on the 22nd of

16 October?

17 A. In the evening, I informed the Crisis Staff, which consisted of

18 elderly and rather serious people, and we decided to reinforce the guard

19 duty, to step up the guard duty, in case of attack. However, during the

20 night, we could not see anything different from the things that had been

21 happening before. There were no movements of soldiers or anything that

22 could alert us to the fact that in the sector of Stupni Do or in its

23 vicinity, there would be an attack the following morning.

24 Q. In the Kordic case, you said that the municipality council had a

25 meeting and decided that all the villagers of the village should be

Page 25678

1 mobilised and that the village should prepare itself for defence.

2 Is this more or less what you have just tried to tell us?

3 A. Yes. For a year and a half, we had been in prison; and for a year

4 and a half, we had been mobilised every night.

5 Q. We'll come to that, Mr. Mahmutovic. I really want to you tell us

6 everything that happened. You also said, in the Kordic case, that some

7 days before the attack, the trenches had been dug out and that the

8 preparations had been carried out for medical assistance; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, in case of attack.

10 Q. You also said that from before, there had been some shelters and

11 trenches, that there had been sandbags and water prepared; and on the eve

12 of the attack, you only inspected all those locations. You repaired

13 whatever was necessary to repair, and you had a short first aid course.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can we then conclude that on the 22nd of October, you undertook

17 everything that was possible in order to prepare the village for defence?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us, please, the trenches around the village, what was the

20 distance between the first line of those trenches and the first houses in

21 the village alone?

22 A. Can you please repeat your question.

23 Q. What was the distance between the trenches and the first houses in

24 the village of Stupni Do itself?

25 A. Some were three kilometres away, some were six kilometres away,

Page 25679

1 some five. It depended on the configuration of the ground. The farthest

2 trench was on Bogos hill on the strategic trigger points which was some

3 seven kilometres away from the village.

4 Q. Tell us, please, when it comes to the defence of the village, did

5 you organise it in such a way that even the most distant trenches would be

6 manned by the defenders who would bar the entrance to the village?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that in the course of the attack, the BiH army

9 abandoned some of those trenches that were far away from the village and

10 that they started approaching the village itself?

11 A. They abandoned just the one trench, the trench facing Bijelo

12 Borje. Those were very inexperienced young men. Actually, 99 per cent

13 had their first encounter with attack with rifles, with fire. So a few of

14 the lads abandoned the trench and ran towards the village.

15 Those men on Bogos, they died; and as for the third trench, that

16 was facing the village of Mir, they could not leave the village because of

17 the configuration of the ground.

18 Q. Now I'm interested in the approach of the BiH army troops to the

19 centre of village.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] A lot of people have spoken about

21 that in this case. I can prepare all of their statements for after the

22 break. But in nutshell we can summarise them by saying that the defence

23 during the attack --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, were you granted

25 more time by other lawyers?

Page 25680

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I know,

2 only Praljak Defence and Petkovic Defence have prepared cross-examination.

3 General Praljak needs some 15 [as interpreted] minutes, and the remainder

4 of the time belongs to me.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 50 minutes.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, there have been people who -- here who have told

8 us about the defence of the village approaching the centre of the village,

9 and I'm going to quote some of those statements, which stated that the

10 Defence approached houses that served as shelters. For example, Mr. Ejub

11 Likic said that Salih Likic was killed in the area around the shelter

12 which was defended by 14 members of the BiH army.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, I'm going to

14 say that this is Exhibit number P08121, item 27 AF.

15 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic is it correct that 14 members of the BH army were

16 defending the shelter which housed the civilians in the very centre of the

17 village, i.e., in the village of Stupni Do itself?

18 A. It's not correct. It's not correct, and I can explain.

19 Q. What is not correct?

20 A. It is not correct --

21 Q. What is not correct, the figure of 14 or that there were any

22 members of the BiH army defending that shelter and that building?

23 A. From the position where I was, I could not see that part of the

24 village where the entire civilian population had withdrawn to. But I know

25 that at the moment of the attack, and some hour or an hour and a half into

Page 25681

1 attack, there was completes chaos and Ejub Likic's statement is not

2 correct because he himself had also fled the area.

3 Q. Let's analyse what you've just told us, please. You have told us

4 that you did not see the part of the village to which the civilian

5 population had withdrawn to. Does that mean that all of those 200-some

6 civilians had withdrawn to that one part of the village that you yourself

7 couldn't see?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And tell us, please, were they all in one central shelter?

10 A. I wouldn't know that.

11 Q. And when you say that Mr. Ejub Likic is not saying the truth

12 because he had fled, can you just tell us briefly what the problem may be,

13 what was his problem?

14 A. Ejub Likic was on Bogos hill which was a very strategically

15 important point at which lads had died. At the moment when the trench was

16 falling, he left the mortar that was up there. He had not fired a single

17 shell. He just left it there and he ran down to the village without a

18 rifle, without a hand grenade. There were several lads who had done that,

19 so there was a chaos everywhere.

20 Q. Tell me, please, in the village itself, where was the position of

21 the mortar. In the village itself, where was the mortar in Stupni Do?

22 A. It had been taken to Bogos hill.

23 Q. So in the village, there was no mortar?

24 A. Of course not.

25 Q. Mr. Ejub Likic also stated that Amit Likic another member of the

Page 25682

1 BH army from that position, near the shelter in which there were

2 civilians, threw a hand grenade at the HVO.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The exhibit is the same, at item 27

4 AI and AK.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Another blatant lie, and can I

6 explain?

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. We don't have the time unfortunately. You've already heard Their

9 Honours rushing me. I just wanted to show you another statement before

10 the break.

11 Avdija Likic stated the following: "The defence forces of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina were focused around the main shelter in the village,

13 where there was a majority of the civilians." This was Ejub Likic's

14 house.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The exhibit number is P06978, item

16 38 C.

17 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Mahmutovic, this is another person's

18 statement about the concentration of the Defence forces of the BiH army

19 around the main village shelter; is it true or not true?

20 A. Not true. There could have been two or three soldiers, but 14?

21 No. That's beyond belief.

22 Q. Ejub mentioned the number of 14; Avdija speaks about a high

23 concentration, but that doesn't matter.

24 Before we start talking about civilian population, there is

25 another important detail. Mr. Avdija Likic stated that the HVO had called

Page 25683

1 civilian population of the Stupni Do to surrender in the course of

2 fighting, but that the BiH army refused to surrender and decided to

3 continue fighting despite the situation on the ground.

4 Tell us, please, whether that is correct or not?

5 A. Lie, lie.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, I would like

7 to say that this is the same exhibit number, item 38 D.

8 Now, Your Honours, I find this a convenient time for our first

9 break.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right, but

11 there is just one question.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, there are two

13 documents, 080182 [as interpreted] and 06978. These are P-documents.

14 It's Prosecution documents, aren't they? Because in your binder, I can

15 not find them.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are statements

17 of the witnesses that have already been admitted into evidence. Those

18 were not viva voce witnesses. They were witnesses whose statements we

19 adopted in this case. Unfortunately, I've not prepared them because they

20 were not important, and I don't want to tender them into evidence.

21 They were just the basis for putting questions to this witness,

22 and I have provided the references to the specific items in the statements

23 so the statements may be checked. If you so wish, I can prepare both of

24 these statements for the session that starts after the break, so you may

25 be able to verify all the -- everything.

Page 25684

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you not continue for ten

2 more minutes, and that way we can take a break at 5.00?

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: With your permission, I would like to put a

4 question to the witness.

5 Witness, you stated not long ago, very clearly, that it was a

6 mistake to say that the HVO had invited the inhabitants of Stupni Do and

7 the defenders of Stupni Do to surrender. How can say that it was not true

8 when were you so far from the area where the civilians were?

9 Is it not possible that there was such a call but that you simply

10 had not heard it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From conversations, Your Honour,

12 from conversations with the people who had thrown grenades, with the

13 person who had defended those civilians. Drugged soldiers had killed at

14 random so nobody stood a chance in hell to remain alive. They killed

15 everybody. There was no chance for anybody to remain alive, or for them

16 to call anybody to surrender.

17 If you can appreciate the situation as it was on that day, them

18 calling somebody to surrender is beyond belief. I spoke to people, to the

19 civilians who were in that shelter. Nobody ever called to anybody to

20 surrender, and I really don't know where this statement came from. How

21 could anybody have stated this?

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Did you put the question clearly

23 to the person you spoke to? Did you ask them whether they heard anything,

24 a call, a speech, or somebody from the -- or something from the HVO?

25 I understand that there was a moment when people were firing shots

Page 25685

1 and nobody was careful. But if I have understood you well, people were

2 cautioned, and this preceded the time you have just spoken about.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time, since

4 12 or 13 years ago, do I hear somebody saying that somebody called

5 somebody. After so many stories and things told, after the end, this is

6 the first time I hear from anybody that people had been called to

7 surrender, which obviously shows you this is not true. Can you imagine

8 200 or 300 men firing at a handful of people? I really, really don't

9 understand this.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, we have had witness here. We have had women who

12 spoke about that. One of them was a messenger, but we won't go into

13 that. Now I would like to talk about the civilians.

14 A. I apologise, if I may interrupt you. I really can't stay calm.

15 If the Trial Chamber would allow me, I would like to explain.

16 Q. I would kindly ask to you leave that to the end of today's

17 session, because my time is really restricted. I would like to explain

18 for the Trial Chamber something else, and I believe that you are the ideal

19 person to help us with that.

20 The list of the fallen persons, my learned friends Flynn showed

21 you that under 58641. This is the list of 38 people, and I suppose that

22 you know very well who these people are. You're familiar with the list,

23 but I would like to show you one person on number 28, Rasema Likic.

24 I would like to tell you that for that person, one witness, a

25 female witness whose name is Salifa [phoen] Likic. Said as following --

Page 25686

1 as follows: "While they were hiding in the forest, one elderly woman

2 died. She had been identified as Rasema Likic. She probably died from

3 exhaustion or a heart attack."

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] This is the statement under P06798,

5 item 19 F.

6 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, do you have any knowledge about Rasema Likic

7 having died in the forest after she had managed to leave Stupni Do, rather

8 than having been killed in Stupni Do itself?

9 A. Yes. That woman died at the exit. Her heart stopped from fear.

10 Q. Now, before we start talking about the civilians, let's try to

11 clarify, for the benefit of the Judges, the words "CZ" next to some of the

12 names. Does this abbreviation stand for "civilian protection," to help

13 you answer?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell us please, the civilian protection, was that one of the forms

16 or aspects of the defence activities of the citizens of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the same was true of the citizens of Croatia and

18 all of the other citizens of the former Yugoslavia?

19 Can we agree on that, that the civilian protection was one form of

20 defence activity?

21 A. Yes. But our civilian protection looked after the civilian

22 population, and dug out trenches around the villages.

23 Q. Can you please now look at 4D 00408?

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] This is a decree on defence, the

25 defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The date is November 1992.

Page 25687

1 Q. I believe it would be very useful if we could together explain to

2 the Trial Chamber what were the rights and duties of the citizens in

3 defence.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at Article 46 of this

5 decree.

6 Q. I believe you're waiting for the document to appear on the screen,

7 but you have it in your binder, article 46.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] I apologise for being

9 fastidious. But according to the transcript on line 6, page 44, you have

10 said that the date of the decree is November 1992. I'm looking at the

11 first page, at any rate, of the translated version we have, and we have

12 the date of the 20th of May 1992.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're perfectly

14 right, as regards the passing of the decree itself; but it was published

15 in the Official Gazette in November 1992. So that when I said November, I

16 actually was referring to the time of the publication. But the date that

17 was mentioned by His Honour Judge Trechsel was, in fact, more important,

18 because the decree enters into force on the date of its passing, not

19 publication.

20 Q. So could we please look at this Article in front of us, 46?

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] The document here says that this

22 is a copy of the Narodni List of the Official Gazette. But I think there

23 is a slippage here between the original and the translation, because I see

24 here that in the original text, we have the date 15th of November.

25 I don't think one needs to be a linguist to understand this. This

Page 25688

1 might be a translation error.

2 Please proceed. I don't wish to delay you.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are right, as

4 usual. There is a mistranslation here on top, and I have to admit that I

5 did not pay any attention to that particular part of the translation.

6 Q. So at any rate, Article 46, let us look at the rights and

7 obligations --

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [No interpretation]

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. -- of the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina in defence. It says here

11 that they have military obligation.

12 So let us take it one at a time. Citizens are under the military

13 obligation. Was military obligation one of the obligations that the

14 citizens had in the defence of their country?

15 A. As far as Article 46 is concerned, in the case of Stupni Do, the

16 civilians and the civil defence --

17 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, we will get to that.

18 A. The civil defence had only the right to be killed without the

19 rifle.

20 Q. We will get to the civil defence, civilian protection; or, in

21 fact, I just want to show the Judges what are the obligations of the

22 citizens in the defence of the country, and that this was just a pretext

23 for me to do so.

24 So military obligation is number 1 obligation?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25689

1 Q. The second one is work obligation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let us now look at Article 48, so that our judges are able to get

4 a picture --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

6 ... you said so. The people who were part of the civil defence,

7 according to what you know, were these people around in your village or

8 were they not? I'm talking about --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Your Honour, for a year and a half, we were under a media blockade. We

11 could only see one TV channel, and everything that is now shown on the

12 screen is something that I may have got my hands on after the war. But

13 during the war, all those Official Gazettes and everything, that is now

14 being shown to me, that is nothing to do with me.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not asking about the media.

16 I'm talking about your fellow citizens who were in your village and who

17 were part of the civil defence. Were these people armed or not?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not armed, Your Honour.

19 They were not armed.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what I wanted

21 to know. We need to have a break now. It is 5.00, and we are having a

22 20-minute break.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.02 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.21 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Alaburic. You have the

Page 25690

1 floor.

2 MR. FLYNN: I wonder if I may, before Ms. Alaburic continues, I

3 had wanted to say this, but I didn't want to break her train of thought

4 when she was cross-examining.

5 Just by way of record, on page 38, at line 6, Ms. Alaburic, when

6 she was questioning the witness, suggested that there had been a lot of

7 people who had told us various things for the Tribunal here, concerning

8 what had happened in the village of Stupni Do; then she proceeded to put

9 to the witness the statements of certain people, including Ejub Likic,

10 another Likic member whose name I can't pick up from the transcript; then

11 she referred to various exhibits, some of which were P exhibits.

12 Just for the record, I want to say that these are not 92 bis

13 witnesses. Those are not witnesses who ever testified in any shape or

14 form before the Tribunal. And as far as I can see from looking at

15 P exhibits over the break, they are effectively statements which were

16 collected by the UNPROFOR military police or various other law enforcement

17 officers who were investigating Stupni Do in the course of the

18 investigation which took place afterwards. So they are statements which

19 were untried and untested.

20 I just wanted that to be on the record because she had introduced

21 them as statements from people who had told us.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it's been recorded on the

23 transcript.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, my learned

25 colleague, Mr. Flynn, is completely right. This is all about the relaying

Page 25691

1 of the statements made by those people.

2 Q. So but let us go back to the rights and duties of the citizens of

3 BH in the defence of the country. We mentioned the military obligation,

4 which is self-evident, and then we have the work obligation.

5 And can we now look at Article 48 which is in front of you on the

6 screen. Could we please try and explain to the Judges what that is? You

7 know that as the president of the local commune.

8 So in accordance with the ordinance on defence, all citizens able

9 to work, above the age of 15, were under the work obligations. The work

10 obligation could be carried out in the organs of the state administration,

11 companies, and other legal persons, and it could also be discharged by

12 carrying out temporary work for the needs of the defence.

13 So you do know what the work defence is, Mr. Mahmutovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please tell us, in the former Yugoslavia, and in all the

16 countries of the former Yugoslavia, was it a rule that people above the

17 age of 15 could be put under an obligation to work in a state organ or a

18 company that is vital for the defence? Is that so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And was there a rule that citizens, mostly men who were under the

21 work obligation, did not have to serve in the army; is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we then conclude that, in fact, the work and military

24 obligations are actually complementary; in other words, a single person

25 can be either under the military obligation or under the work obligation?

Page 25692

1 Is that so?

2 A. [No audible response]

3 Q. Could you please speak up, because your answer was not recorded in

4 the transcript?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. So it is clear that the work obligation is one of the forms of the

7 defence of the country, is that so?

8 A. Yes. In normal conditions, it is so.

9 Q. Well, we will see what the situation is like in wartime

10 conditions. The next thing that is mentioned in Article 46 is civilian

11 protection. You gave some explanation when Judge Antonetti asked, but let

12 us see what is stipulated in greater detail in Articles 72 of this

13 ordinance.

14 I will read. So this is Article 72, and it says that the civilian

15 protection shall be organised, prepared, and carried out as a system of

16 the protection and rescue of people, physical, and cultural property

17 against wartime destruction, natural disasters, industrial disasters, and

18 all the other risks in peace and wartime.

19 Was this the task of the civilian protection, to your knowledge?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell us, members of the civilian protection,

22 through their work in the civilian protection, contributed to the defence

23 of the country; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Members of the civilian protection were not at the same time

Page 25693

1 soldiers and were not under the work obligation, is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In Article 51, one of the obligations imposed on the citizens --

4 rather, I apologise. It is not Article 51; it is Article 47,

5 paragraph 3.

6 There is an interesting obligation that is imposed on the

7 citizens, and let me quote: "They shall provide information pertinent for

8 the defence that they learn or observe, and they shall provide them to the

9 alerting centre or state organs as soon as possible."

10 Mr. Mahmutovic, does that mean that the citizens of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina were under the obligation to inform those alerting

12 centres about any information that is relevant for the defence of the

13 country and to contribute to the defence of their country in this manner?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Naumovski, who defended the Accused Kordic, in your previous

16 testimony, showed you the statement by Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic, who had said

17 that there were 50 soldiers in Stupni Do; not 36 or 37, as you indicated.

18 When this was put to you by Mr. Naumovski, you replied, and I

19 quote: "Everybody served. There were old age pensioners and others."

20 Did I quote you right? Did you say that everybody served in the

21 defence of the country?

22 A. Yes, yes. But there is this difference: Some were armed and

23 others just had spades.

24 Q. But the fact that some had spades was due to the fact that they

25 had their own tasks in the defence of the country?

Page 25694

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, on the 3rd of

3 November 1998, you said that "all healthy men of military age in the

4 village were under an obligation to join the Territorial Defence which

5 later became the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina." Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. But that was on a voluntary basis, because we didn't have

7 the police. We didn't have any kind of system, or anything of that sort,

8 that would force those who were unwilling or punish them so that they join

9 the army. So everything was on a voluntary basis, precisely because the

10 village had been under a siege or had been encircled for a year and a

11 half.

12 Q. This was, as you indicated right at the beginning of the

13 Territorial Defence. But Mr. Mahmutovic I would now like to focus on

14 civilians and see how out of those maybe 200 civilians - you may correct

15 this figure - how they managed to leave the village of Stupni Do.

16 You have told us that they were located in the houses that served

17 as shelters, and you told us something that is quite interesting. It is

18 something that I, as a lawyer, with quite some experience and of -- in

19 fact, I can't recall any law that bound the civilians building their

20 private homes to have atomic shelters in their houses. I consulted my

21 colleagues from other parts of the former Yugoslavia, from Sarajevo, and

22 they also were unaware of this regulation.

23 So I put it to that you this is not correct, what you said, that

24 private homes in Bosnia-Herzegovina had to be equipped with shelters in

25 case of an attack. Would you agree with me, despite what you had said

Page 25695

1 earlier?

2 A. No, I cannot.

3 Q. Fine. So in those shelters, atomic shelters, as you put it, there

4 were maybe some 200 civilians; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please explain to us, we can use your list to ascertain

7 how many civilians were killed, some 20 or so, could you please tell us

8 how did the 150 to 180 people manage to leave Stupni Do and to save their

9 lives? To begin with, can you please tell us when they left Stupni Do?

10 A. They left in the night. It was -- it stopped raining, but it was

11 overcast and foggy. The HVO troops withdrew to the hills around the

12 village, to the check-points around the village. They set up fires, and I

13 know that because I passed by one such check-point. The column moved out

14 when they saw that --

15 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic --

16 A. Let me finish, please.

17 Q. No, no, please, because we will not be able to go through

18 everything that I want to go through. You said, "during the night," so

19 could you tell us where were these people during that day?

20 A. In their shelters, or as you put it, the atomic shelters.

21 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, that was the term you used, and I quoted you when

22 I used that term. But that's immaterial now.

23 At the time, when the HVO soldiers entered the village, the

24 villagers were in the shelters?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25696

1 Q. The villagers, for the most part, remained in shelters after the

2 HVO soldiers left the village; is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that mean that the HVO soldiers did not go from house to

5 house and did not look into the shelters where civilians were at the time?

6 A. I explained a little while ago, the HVO soldiers stopped the

7 attack after one of their number was wounded by the grenade. They stopped

8 the attack. The villagers did not dare leave the shelters until it was

9 dark, and only then did --

10 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic --

11 A. -- only then did they form a column and leave.

12 Q. There is something that is unclear to me, and I believe that it is

13 unclear to some other people, too. When the fighting stopped, the HVO

14 soldiers entered the village. Some HVO soldiers did enter the village.

15 You mentioned --

16 A. Yes, they did.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers will have to

18 stop overlapping. It is impossible to interpret.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All the other villagers were in the second half of the village --

21 in the other half of the village; is that what you're trying to tell us?

22 A. Yes, with the exception of those who lived in the -- on the

23 outskirts of the local commune.

24 Q. Those people were not in the way of the HVO soldiers who had

25 entered the village?

Page 25697

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you trying to tell us, then, that a part of the village of

3 Stupni Do, on the 23rd, was not entered by the HVO soldiers; that the

4 population living in those parts of the village were not touched by

5 anyone; and that as soon as it got dark, those villagers were able to

6 leave the village, to hide in the woods and then managed to save their

7 lives by escaping as it was described? Is that what you're trying to tell

8 us?

9 A. I said a little while ago, Abid Likic, when they reached the last

10 destination, there were just two or three house that is were not taken

11 yet, and it is in that house that most of the civilians were. He lobbed

12 two hand grenades on them, they were wounded, and the attack stopped at

13 that moment.

14 Q. Let us focus on these two or three houses. You told us a little

15 while ago that they were in the part of the village that the HVO did not

16 enter. Now you said two or three houses.

17 Does that mean that the HVO went through the whole of the village

18 and held under control all the houses in Stupni Do, with the exception of

19 those two or three houses, or did I misunderstand you?

20 A. It did not establish control over those two or three houses. This

21 is where those civilians were left. That's what I explained.

22 Q. Okay. So the HVO controlled all the houses, with the exception of

23 those two or three houses in Stupni Do?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And all 170 inhabitants of Stupni Do, let us use that figure, were

Page 25698

1 in those two or three houses?

2 A. Well, more or less, yes, plus/minus ten.

3 Q. Could you please tell me, were all the civilians there right from

4 the beginning of the conflict, or did they move from one shelter to

5 another as the conflict progressed to get further away from the axis of

6 the attack of the HVO?

7 A. Yes, yes. They were fleeing, they were fleeing, they were

8 saving -- trying to save their lives.

9 Q. When you talked about the people, the civilians who were killed in

10 the first part of the village, you said that some of them had been

11 disabled. Some are described as very young people, children, really.

12 Can we then conclude that in the first part of the village, only

13 those people were left who were less mobile, so to speak, and who could

14 not move quickly enough to shelters that were further away from the axis

15 of the HVO attack?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, could you please tell us, how come that if you

18 suspected that the HVO might attack Stupni Do, how come that the BH army

19 did not take care of the people who were less mobile, to evacuate them

20 promptly, or at least to move them further away from the axis of the HVO

21 attack?

22 A. Let me repeat this for the third time: The village had been

23 encircled for a year and a half. We had to go through the woods to get

24 the food. The location of this local commune is such that it is

25 surrounded by the Croatian villages.

Page 25699

1 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, I understand all of that, but the fact is that 170

2 people were able to save their lives. It is a fact that the people who

3 were less mobile could not be saved. That's what you told us yourself.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So my question is: If there were any indications that there would

6 be an attack, an army first has to think about how to protect its citizens

7 who are disabled or less mobile for other reasons.

8 So can you explain to us why did you fail to take care of those

9 people who were not able to move on time?

10 A. I was not aware that there would be an attack. The civilians that

11 managed to get out, I explained to you a little while ago, they fell into

12 the hands of the HVO soldiers again.

13 Q. Now, these HVO soldiers, did they meet them and did they take them

14 to the UNPROFOR base and were people saved in that way?

15 A. No. No. I'm -- an UNPROFOR vehicle came by. They would have

16 returned them to Vares. That's what they wanted to do.

17 Q. In any case, there is no doubt in your mind that these people were

18 taken care of and saved?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know that some of these people were thankful to the HVO for

21 the fact that they had been saved and how they had been saved? Do you

22 have any knowledge about that?

23 A. Yes. I can share with you the example of my mother. My mother --

24 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, I am happy that you're aware of such cases. This

25 brings me to an end of my cross-examination. Mr. Mahmutovic, I would like

Page 25700

1 to thank you.

2 A. I apologise, Your Honours. You do not allow me to finish my

3 sentences. My mother was recaptured. She was recaptured. They tied a

4 dog to her body, a very dangerous dog, and they were to exchange her for

5 one of their soldiers.

6 That's how they saved people, and for what people had to be

7 thankful to them? She was an elderly woman. She was 60. Before that,

8 she had seen with her own two eyes how they killed her son.

9 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, I'm very sorry that this happened. There is no

10 reason at all for me to doubt your words, but we have not read any such

11 thing in any of the reports, either by the UNPROFOR or the European

12 monitors or any other organisation. We are rather well informed about the

13 destiny of any citizen of Stupni Do who -- whom something bad had

14 happened.

15 A. There is my mother's statement.

16 Q. It hasn't been presented to us in this courtroom, and I'm really

17 sorry to hear that. Thank you very much.

18 A. Thank you, too.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to follow up a bit, because you seem

20 to have given an ironic answer. When counsel asked you whether you were

21 aware of people from Stupni Do being grateful to the HVO, you said yes.

22 But then you gave an example which, of course, illustrates rather the

23 contrary.

24 Now, I'm repeating the question: Are you aware of any people from

25 your village that were, for some reason or other, grateful to the HVO?

Page 25701

1 I'm not aware of the foundation for this question, but there it

2 is. I'm sorry, I have not heard your answer.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, Your Honours,

7 I would like to tell Judge Trechsel what the foundation for my question

8 is.

9 I believe that after a large number of witnesses and a relatively

10 large number of statements and a relatively large number of the latest

11 statements contained in the UNPROFOR report, we were clear on the fact

12 that the HVO received people who had left Stupni Do, that they transferred

13 them to the UNPROFOR bases, and that was my foundation for the questions

14 that I put to the witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Praljak's Defence has 50

16 minutes, Mr. Kovacic.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the opportunity with

18 regard to your defence dated 10 May, and especially paragraph 11 and 12 of

19 this decision. I would like to ask you to allow the Accused Praljak to

20 put the questions to the witness.

21 We have learned a lot of things about Stupni Do so far. It is not

22 in dispute that this was an armed conflict, that this was fighting that

23 took place in the village and around the village.

24 And given the context of the fighting, and given the consequences

25 that to a certain extent are rather dubious, and bearing in mind that

Page 25702

1 Praljak was a soldier, that he was familiar with the situation, that he

2 was clear on the circumstances under which such events happened, I believe

3 that he meets the criteria of the decision because he has specialist

4 knowledge and he is better-suited to put questions on this area.

5 That it would be my oral submission.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, can you answer a

7 question from the Chamber? General Praljak was not present at the time,

8 was he? Did he have any knowledge about what had happened?

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] It is true, Your Honours, that

10 General Praljak was not there, and we have seen from some of the documents

11 and from the words of certain witnesses that he had been briefed

12 subsequently.

13 We know that there was a certain investigation; in other words, he

14 was subsequently informed about all the details. That's one foundation.

15 The other foundation is that similar events, i.e., conflicts between the

16 army attacking and the army defending irrespective of who the attacker and

17 who the defender was, evolved in a similar ways following similar

18 regularities. In that respect, he has special experience.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, to be more accurate, what

21 kind of military issue of a technical nature will he talk about?

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If you wish, Your Honours,

23 Mr. Praljak has added some things during the testimony of this witness.

24 He could inform you better than me. I can provide you some general

25 information.

Page 25703

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you have the floor.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very

3 much. I have been charged with the events in Stupni Do; although, as you

4 said it yourself, I was not there. I was 200 kilometres away from there,

5 but I was still charged with Stupni Do in the indictment.

6 In addition to being there, there are also statements of the

7 witnesses which form the factual basis, but there is only a logic that

8 puts these facts in a certain relation; for example, the logic about the

9 exact number of trenches around Stupni Do, how far they were apart from

10 each other - I've prepared a little map - the fact whether Bogos is seven

11 kilometres away from Stupni Do, whether these trenches were three or four

12 kilometres away from Stupni Do, further on whether the units of the BiH

13 army in Stupni Do also had machine-guns and how many. This has been

14 omitted. Thank you very much.

15 Cross-examination by Accused Praljak:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. As you've already heard, I'm going to try and clarify certain

19 matters and certain technical and military matters, as well as some other

20 facts, and I'm going to try and put them in certain perspectives.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher

22 to put before us a map on the thing over there.

23 Q. On this map, you will see some markings.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can you put the part with

25 the circles.

Page 25704

1 Q. You will see eight circles there, marking the village of Kopjari.

2 Can you see that?

3 Witness, can you please look at the map: The village of Kopjari;

4 the village of Dragojevici; Mijakovici; Lijesnica, that's a hill top;

5 Bogos hill; Stupni Do; Mir and Dastansko villages.

6 I'm going to ask you this: During the attack on Stupni Do, did

7 you know that the units of the BiH army of the 3rd Corps had attacked the

8 villages of Kopjari, Dragojevici, and Mijakovici several days before that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Along the axis indicated by the green arrow pointing towards

11 Vares, were you familiar with that?

12 A. Yes, I was. I've heard of that.

13 Q. Thank you very much. You can see that to Stupni Do and Mir and

14 Bogosi have been marked. You said that a while ago that Stupni Do is some

15 seven kilometres away from Bogos hill.

16 This map that you have is in the scale of 1:100.000, and that

17 means that seven kilometres to be seven centimetres on the map. Would you

18 agree with me that it is not at all possible if you look at the map, and

19 you will see that --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I'm somewhat

21 lost. The Bogosi hill is seven kilometres away from the village, is it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, if you walk there on foot.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On foot. Seven kilometres on

24 foot. Seven kilometres.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to go to Mir, then there

Page 25705

1 are serpentines, you have to negotiate a trail up the meadows; and

2 Mr. Praljak is talking about the distance as the crow flies.

3 As the crow flies, it may be one or two kilometres; but in order

4 for you to climb, you can't go straight. You could if you were a mountain

5 climber, an alpinist. That's the whole point.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. You will agree with me that the houses in Stupni Do

8 are rather scattered and that the distance between the houses on the left

9 side to the right-hand side is about one kilometre and a half, would that

10 be correct, if we consult the map?

11 A. I apologise, Mr. Praljak. I did not understand your question at

12 all.

13 Q. We'll take it slowly. Is it correct that the village of Stupni Do

14 is rather elongated, so that one from side of the village to the other

15 side of the village, the distance is about a kilometre and a half at

16 least?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Here I've also marked the lines of the

19 Republika Srpska army in red. Will you agree with me that this is more or

20 less how the things were at the time?

21 A. I can't really see this map very well. I apologise.

22 Q. Look at the red colour?

23 A. Yes. I can see the red colour, but nothing is legible on the map,

24 so I'm not able to follow.

25 Q. Look at Dastansko towards Zvijezda?

Page 25706

1 A. Yes, I'm clear on that.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, to better understand where

4 the Bogos hill is and where the village is, we have a photograph which has

5 been given to us by the Prosecution. Could we put it on the ELMO, please,

6 and the witness could then tell us where the Bogos hill stands which would

7 make everything much clearer.

8 We have a photograph here. Can we see the Bogos hill here?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the right-hand

10 side, you can see this rather large hill. Here, on the right-hand side of

11 the map, there is a meadow. You can see that towards the centre, and

12 there is a little forest. And from there, on the right-hand side, Bogos

13 hill starts, but it is not depicted in the picture. That's where it

14 starts. It's a very steep slope, and it goes towards the right side, but

15 it's not depicted in this photo.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can just see the

17 beginning of it. Right.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Praljak.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Q. I have also marked by an arrow that goes from Vares to Dastansko.

21 This has nothing to do with you. But just for the information of the

22 Trial Chamber, according to your knowledge at that time and later on, was

23 this road that the HVO soldiers and Croats used to withdraw from Vares

24 when the BiH army had attacked Vares, and they went to Dastansko?

25 A. Thank you.

Page 25707

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can I have the IC number for

2 this map, Your Honours?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could we have an

4 IC number of the map with circles on it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The map shall be given Exhibit number IC 754.

6 Thank you, Your Honour.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can this piece of paper also

8 be placed on the same place so that we may take a look, merely.

9 Q. A witness drew this map, and I'm not going to say his name. He is

10 supposed to appear before this Trial Chamber. We have received this map

11 from the Prosecutor's Office, and this map depicts seven trenches, seven

12 trenches around the village from number 1 to number 7.

13 According to your knowledge, is this a true marking of the

14 trenches that were placed around the village of Stupni Do?

15 A. Just bear with me for a moment.

16 Q. Take your time.

17 A. Mr. Praljak, please, could you explain the meaning of this circle

18 and number 3 next to it?

19 Q. That's that trench. This witness claims that there was a trench

20 here, a BiH army trench, or a trench of the forces that were in Stupni Do.

21 He also made a sketch of the roads around the village, and he also drew

22 the seven trenches around the village. Do you agree with this sketch?

23 It's not a map; it's actually a sketch, a drawing. Can you agree

24 with it?

25 A. Yes, with everything, except for number 3. I don't know what that

Page 25708

1 is.

2 Q. Very well. It's enough.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the IC

4 number for this sketch, please, and then I'll move on.

5 Q. Can you correct the distances that you provided to the Trial

6 Chamber? You will see -- you will see it on the film. Can you agree that

7 this the distances were not two or three kilometres, that these trenches

8 were much closer to the village?

9 A. Mr. Praljak, I never measured any of these distances. I didn't

10 have a tape measure or anything else. But judging by the logic of the

11 thing, if the distance between Vares and Majdan and Stupni Do, if that's

12 two kilometres and 800 metres, it's only logical that all these trenches

13 were between two and seven kilometres away.

14 Q. Okay. If you want to stick to that, be my guest.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can I please have an IC

16 number?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What will be the

18 number?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number IC 755.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In your statement, and I'm reading from the statement that was

23 provided to us by the Prosecutor's Office, you said that you heard the

24 first shots around 8.00 in the morning and that you thought that it was

25 some lads fooling around because that had sometimes happened.

Page 25709

1 A. Yes. There had been provocations before that.

2 Q. Thank you very much. And then you heard from the surrounding

3 hills not only infantry weapons but also some heavy weaponry, artillery

4 weaponry, and particularly the answer aircraft cannons; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The aircraft cannons ranging between 20, 40 millimetres?

7 A. Yes. I was their target as well.

8 Q. And then you say that they targeted the houses at the beginning of

9 the village, in the lower part of the village?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that that was the inflammatory bullets that set houses on

12 fire?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then you go on to say that the lines were falling, you were in

15 a trench, then you saw 19 soldiers advancing from the direction of the

16 forest, and then you returned to your house to the shelter there; is that

17 correct?

18 A. But I never entered the shelter. I came to the door of my house,

19 and I told them to that they had to leave, that they had to leave the

20 shelter, all of them to go to the forest, to take the road to the rocky

21 part of the forest in order to save themselves because the line on Bogos,

22 the first line of defence on Bogos, had fallen.

23 Q. And you say that half of the people from the shelter who were

24 women and children reached the forest safely. You are saying here that

25 children and women, regardless of the bullets falling around them, had

Page 25710

1 reached the forest safely; is that correct?

2 A. What I said is correct. I was watching the first group of people

3 that left the shelter. The four of them jumped over the fence. If you

4 understand what I'm saying, they jumped over the fence that was below the

5 house, and they went towards the forest, and they were followed by the

6 others. However, the shooting was so strong that they were afraid to

7 proceed, and they returned to the shelter. They didn't dare proceed.

8 But I didn't know that they had returned to the shelter because I

9 with my father had headed towards the line.

10 Q. I understand you, sir, but the fact that they returned because of

11 the shooting is not part of your statement, and I'm glad that you've

12 clarified. You didn't know that they had returned?

13 A. No, I didn't know.

14 Q. And afterwards, you too went closer to the woods where there was

15 an underground shelter; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And you stayed there until late afternoon or early evening, as we

18 already heard, which was when you went back, and you stated that half of

19 the village was on fire and the other half of the village was not on fire;

20 is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You encountered a neighbour in the fields. His name is ML. I'm

23 not going to give you his full name. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. We have dealt with this. But I'm now interested in the

Page 25711

1 following: You stated that you know that 38 people died or were killed in

2 Stupni Do; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic, you have to understand that I have to ask this for

5 the simple reason that we are trying to come to the truth about Stupni Do.

6 I'm going to show you a film that was taken by UNPROFOR, by UNPROFOR

7 police that conducted an investigation, after it entered the village of

8 Stupni Do.

9 So my question to you will be the following before we go on to

10 show you the clip: In the meantime, between the arrival of UNPROFOR and

11 the departure of the people from Stupni Do, did anyone bury the people,

12 the dead people, in Stupni Do? Did anyone bury any of the dead bodies?

13 A. Could you please repeat your question?

14 Q. The people from Stupni Do, and you yourself, left in the night

15 between the 23rd and the 24th of October 1993. After that, UNPROFOR came

16 in, I think it was on the 25th -- or rather, the 26th. It entered the

17 village of Stupni Do, and some footage was filmed showing everything that

18 could be seen there; and at that moment, 15 or 16 bodies were found.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. My first question to you is the following: In the meantime, did

21 anyone bury any of those people who died or were killed, or was the scene

22 intact until the arrival of UNPROFOR to your knowledge?

23 A. Well, to my knowledge, and what I know is true, the HVO in Vares

24 did not allow UNPROFOR to enter the village for three days after the

25 attack, for three days.

Page 25712

1 Q. Yes, we know that. This is not controversial.

2 A. None of the villagers could not and did not dare to get in there.

3 Q. Why I'm going to ask you to watch closely, and I apologise in

4 advance because I'm sure that this -- that you will be affected by

5 watching this film. It will take you back to everything that you lived

6 through, but I have to show it to you. Why? You told us that sometime on

7 the 4th or the 5th of November, you had gone back to Stupni Do, that you

8 went to the burned out remains of the buildings, and that you took three

9 or four days to dig out all the bodies from the charred debris.

10 So now we will see what the houses looked like, and --

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Praljak, on line 12 of page 86,

12 there is an answer which has a double negative: "None of the villages

13 could not and did not dare to get in there. That means that all the

14 villagers could and dared to get in there." Is that what you wanted to

15 say, witness?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, Your Honour. Nobody

17 dared to go back there until Vares was liberated.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you for the clarification.

19 Excuse me, Mr. Praljak.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 This was a double negation. Any way, let us look at P06321.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So is it correct that now we can see the basement, the shelters,

25 the windows, we can see the sandbags around those windows in the

Page 25713

1 background?

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I don't know what's going

3 on.

4 Q. Sir, we have seen the terrible images in another film, and the

5 charred bodies of the people who came to be autopsied. I don't know how

6 the autopsy was carried out. We will see them standing around locations

7 where there was no burning, and there had been no burning. His Honour

8 Judge Antonetti noticed that, too, when we first saw this film.

9 What I am bothered about is how the bodies in this other film came

10 to be charred beyond recognition when those houses that we are about to

11 see cannot burn to such a degree. You can see the roofs, the structures,

12 and people inside could have some burns and could perhaps suffocate; but

13 how could some bodies be burnt beyond recognition?

14 Did you --

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could you please stop

16 there.

17 Q. Did you look for an answer to that question? Here, we can see

18 three women who had been killed.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this is

20 very visible or not, or how clear we can get it.

21 Q. The woman, the first woman here, is in a military uniform. My

22 question to you is whether there was a woman among the BH army troops in

23 Stupni Do?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Unfortunately, this image could be of better quality.

Page 25714

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we please continue.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You can see she is wearing a camouflage uniform, and below her

5 there are two other women. In the background, we can see those images, we

6 can see the sandbags. We can't see the windows does, though.

7 Another question that I'm going to ask you is whether you know for

8 a fact that from those basements that were protected, that there was no

9 fire on the HVO troops?

10 A. Yes, I know that.

11 Q. So nobody opened fire from the houses?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. My next question is: If you were in one position from 8.00 a.m.

14 onwards and then you left this place and you were with your father at one

15 point, so I'm asking you how do you know that?

16 I'm asking you to distinguish between what you really knew was

17 going on in the village that was a kilometre and a half long, and what you

18 learnt subsequently.

19 At that time, on the 23rd, in the morning and during the day, were

20 you in a position to know and to see that fire was not opened from the

21 houses, from the basements, on the HVO, or was that something that you

22 could not know?

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could you please stop

24 there.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You have to stop the

Page 25715

1 picture here, please. We can -- could we see once again the previous

2 sequence.

3 [Videotape played]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please stop here.

5 This seems to be a body, calcinated body, and I can notice that

6 all around the body there are no traces of burning. If there had been

7 some combustion, that whole area would have been blackened.

8 Do you know, Witness, why and how is it that aside from that

9 calcinated body, nothing else seemed to be burned around it?

10 I am putting there question to you because there is a hypothesis

11 according to which the calcinated body may have been brought there after

12 wards, after the fact, and that the body may have been burnt elsewhere.

13 What do you say to this hypothesis?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall this building,

15 specifically; and since the image is a bit blurred, if I could see the

16 building from the outside, then I could tell precisely whose building that

17 was, whose house that was, and who was on -- who is depicted here. But as

18 it is now, I cannot tell that. It is not clear.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, you also told us that you were able to

20 identify all the bodies that were found. Could you explain how you could

21 identify a body charred like this one, assuming it is, but that's what we

22 are told.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The easiest way to identify the

24 victims was through the relatives, the survivors, mothers, fathers,

25 grandmothers, grandfathers, because they knew the precise location where

Page 25716

1 the victim was left, either dead or wounded, and this was our main source.

2 This is what helped us most to identify the victims. To be quite

3 specific, at Ejub Likic's house, I was able to retrieve seven burnt

4 bodies: Two small children, his wife, his sister-in-law, his brother, and

5 his mother. He helped me in that.

6 They were all in the basement; and once we dug them out, we were

7 able to ascertain that they had been in the basement. So in most cases,

8 we were assisted by the next of kin to identify the victims.

9 This was done also at the town cemetery in Visoko when efforts

10 were made to identify the victims. We didn't have the DNA analysis, but

11 we had relatives identify them because parts of bodies would be remain

12 whole. They were parts of bodies that were not burned. I remember a

13 little girl whose foot remained intact. The rest of her body was charred.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. This is yet another body in another house, not the same one. We

16 can see that walls are white and only the ceiling had caved in. It is

17 obviously, I don't know, a child or I can't -- I don't know who did the

18 analysis. But when the Judges asked their questions, it is really

19 difficult for me to accept that these people were burnt right here on

20 these locations.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] But can we move -- can we

22 move on.

23 Q. You can see we have a mortar shell.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we please stop here.

25 Q. Is this a mortar shell, a part of a mortar shell, not a 60

Page 25717

1 millimetre mortar shell but a larger calibre?

2 You can see a barrel or a tube next to it. Are you sure that

3 mortars were not fired from the village?

4 A. Yes, I'm sure.

5 Q. How can you be sure?

6 A. Well, I know what we had, Mr. Praljak.

7 Q. But this was filmed by UNPROFOR, not by Praljak unfortunately. So

8 I'm asking how could UNPROFOR in the village of Stupni Do on the 26th film

9 everything that they saw? They saw 16 bodies, one was doubtful. They saw

10 the houses that had been set on fire, houses that had collapsed, and they

11 also saw this mortar shell. Whence is this mortar shell here?

12 A. Let me explain to the Judges, Mr. Praljak. UNPROFOR forces

13 entered the village after the HVO gave its approval, and this footage was

14 made by UNPROFOR. So there are living witnesses who filmed that.

15 Let me put it this way: They picked up the bodies that were

16 visible. They were either whole or charred. They put them into their

17 APCs, and they took them in to the town cemetery in Visoko. So the first

18 16 persons, these are the persons.

19 So in order to get at the truth, we have to ask them, one of them,

20 the difference. The rest of the people were underneath the rubble. They

21 only took away the bodies that were visible on the surface, and we went

22 after the ones that were under the rubble. So there was this difference

23 in the reports. 16, 38; 16, 38. People kept saying, "Well, 16 people

24 were found, 16 people were found by UNPROFOR."

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I would like you to explain for the

Page 25718

1 Chamber this picture. I see on the right something blurred; then a piece

2 of a -- of a tube; then something that could be a mortar grenade, half

3 hidden under what may be paper bags or something; and to the left of that,

4 again something which has more or less the form of a mortar grenade.

5 Do you agree? Do I see it correctly, interpret the picture

6 correctly?

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, definitely.

8 This thing to the right, mortar shells are kept in some kind of a casing,

9 just as you would a piece of paper. This thing to the right should be the

10 casing where this mortar shell was supposed to be. That's my explanation

11 based on what I know, and I do know a couple of things. This is how you

12 actually package mortar shells.

13 Q. But at any rate, sir, an UNPROFOR witness, a police officer who

14 was in charge of the whole investigation, told us that the investigation

15 had been carried out under their auspices.

16 You told us that in the first month - and this does not tally with

17 what he had said - that the search for the dead bodies lasted until March

18 1994.

19 I asked him how many new victims were found each month to increase

20 the total for the victims in Stupni Do, and he was unable to explain, to

21 tell me that.

22 Now I'm asking you, with which UNPROFOR members, where, at which

23 houses, were you able to find the remaining bodies, the difference between

24 the 16 and the 38 bodies? So which UNPROFOR member, in which houses did

25 you dig, and when did do you that?

Page 25719

1 So which house had been destroyed to such an extent that the body

2 was buried under the rubble, yet the buildings -- the only ceilings had

3 caved in on those buildings?

4 Now let us look at those houses that had been set on fire by

5 incendiary bullets to what extent that they were actually burnt.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Including your own house. I will show you your own house. You

9 can see, well, there is no roof there, but we can't see the kind of

10 rubble, at least not on these houses, that would necessitate that kind of

11 excavation to get at the victims. You will answer when, where, with whom,

12 from UNPROFOR, you actually did the digging?

13 A. Well, I don't remember the name of that UNPROFOR member. Those

14 were their police officers. They had -- they were armed. They had

15 cameras. And in Milos Rozevic's house, we found a body -- the body, Alija

16 Likic's body. His father name was Osman. Ostoja Danilo's house is

17 destroyed to this day.

18 There is another house where we found Alija, and there was another

19 house that was also destroyed. This is where we found the two disabled

20 persons who had been burnt down. So there are quite a few buildings that

21 haven't yet been renovated.

22 Q. Yes. That is not controversial, but we have those charred bodies

23 and nothing else. Look at the houses here. They are burned down. They

24 are destroyed, but there was fighting. A crime was committed. This is

25 not in dispute here, but the extent of this crime is something that I am

Page 25720

1 really fixated on.

2 When were you able to dig out the remaining people to make up the

3 difference between the 16 and the 38 victims?

4 The investigation ended in March, yet the number of victims kept

5 growing. Was the investigation really completed in March, or did new

6 victims of Stupni Do emerge later?

7 A. Well, I don't remember the exact date when I completed the

8 investigation. I explained to the Trial Chamber that only one victim out

9 of the 38 has not yet been found, and I learned later from a witness what

10 happened to that person.

11 But as for all the others, I don't remember whether it lasted a

12 month or a month and a half; but at any rate, I was able to find and bury

13 all the victims. I explained about all those cases. If I am not speaking

14 the truth, there are other victims -- witnesses. There is footage taken

15 by the Nordic Battalion, and they filmed and they were present when I

16 found Likic, Alija. That's just one example.

17 Q. We had a man here who showed us some really ugly photographs here

18 of the 16 --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just mentioned something,

20 sir. When you found the bodies, you say that the Nordic Battalion was

21 already there. Did they take any pictures? Did they the shoot a video as

22 well?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

Page 25721

1 Q. Apart from the 16 bodies - one was doubtful here, too - we did not

2 see any photographs taken in the course of the excavation, exhumation, or

3 the bodies themselves, because the bodies would be completely decomposed

4 after a month and a half, and given that there had been raining -- there

5 had been rain. We never saw any photographs of those bodies being exhumed

6 or taken anywhere. We have the information only regarding the 16.

7 So I'm just asking whether anyone would bring here photographs

8 that would show what really happened in Stupni Do, but let us not dwell on

9 is that.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] You can take all of this

11 away.

12 Q. Let me just ask you some more questions.

13 Sir, a witness says that there were 43 guards in the village, and

14 he says that since there were seven guard posts, there were three men on

15 each of them, 21 men per shift. We had people say there were 20 people,

16 and this guy says 43. And you were not a commander, but is it possible

17 that in Stupni Do there were 43 armed people, as a protected witness

18 testified?

19 A. No, Mr. Praljak. The shifts were -- these were not real soldiers.

20 The shifts were like the shifts that you would have in a factory. People

21 did not take their weapons home. A soldier would go to do his shift; and

22 after 12 hours, he would hand over the rifle to another soldier to replace

23 him, and he would go home.

24 Q. Okay. So this witness says there were 43 of them, and he goes on

25 to say that the worst guard post was Potok, the stream, because it was

Page 25722

1 located between two hills and it was the place that was very good for an

2 attack. So anyone guarding that post would be in dire straits if they had

3 to defend against an attack there. Is that so?

4 A. This was a post halfway between the village of Stupni Do and Vares

5 Majdan. Now, as to whether it was really that dangerous or not, I'm not a

6 military analyst. I can't tell you.

7 Q. Is it true, according to you, that on that day, there were five

8 people -- at least five people at Bogos from your village?

9 A. I don't know the exact figure. I know that two people were killed

10 in the trench. They remained there. I know that Ejub Likic was there,

11 and I know that he ran out of the trench leaving his rifle behind. He ran

12 to the village. He's mentioned here.

13 I know that the father of one of the lads who got killed up there

14 went in that direction. He was unarmed, and he was shot and killed by the

15 HVO halfway up.

16 Q. So Momir and his father, Salkin Sekjia [phoen], were all killed?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And then he says that they prepared for the fight and the fighting

19 that ensued lasted two and a half hours. Are you familiar with the fact

20 that on one of these positions - and apparently this is the position which

21 is close to Bogos - that the fighting lasted for two hours and a half and

22 that the distance between the attackers and the defence was 50 metres?

23 A. Well, I don't know that, Mr. Praljak.

24 Q. Do you know that apart from this group that was in the centre of

25 the village, as this one witness put it, not in the shelters of two or

Page 25723

1 three houses, do you know that a group of about 40 people had pulled out

2 earlier, going through the woods to the HVO check-point, where they were

3 given water, UNPROFOR was called, and they were transferred to the free

4 territory, territory controlled by the BH army?

5 Are you aware of that fact?

6 A. No, Mr. Praljak, but I think that this is not true.

7 Q. Fine, fine. I'm just talking about testimony that we heard.

8 A. No, no. I don't know about that, and I can't tell you things that

9 I don't know.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. You just tell us what you know, and we

11 will be able to proceed.

12 MR. FLYNN: Before we do, Your Honours, if I may. I will need

13 about four minutes for redirect, if that's possible.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No problems. I will

16 conclude briefly.

17 Q. Let me just tell you this: Are you aware of the fact that a

18 statement -- that a witness said that: "Near our trench at Stensiska

19 [phoen], I saw the dead body of Zejnil Mahmutovic. He had a very large

20 wound on his back caused by a dumdum bullet."

21 Do you know that Zejnil Mahmutovic was killed next to the trench?

22 A. This was my father, and I know for a fact where he was killed. I

23 know that for sure.

24 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I didn't know that. I didn't have that

25 information.

Page 25724

1 A. Let me just explain. There was no trench there. This was a place

2 above those houses. The last time that I left my father there, he didn't

3 want to leave the two people, the people who couldn't move, who had

4 been -- who later got burnt in the rubble. He didn't want to leave them

5 behind he was such a good man. I found him, or rather, UNPROFOR found him

6 and UNPROFOR took him away.

7 I was able to see him just before the funeral. He had four

8 through-and-through gunshot wounds on his chest, So he was not killed by

9 a dumdum bullet. It was a sower of death, a machine-gun, and the bullet

10 wounds were from the top going to the side. This I can tell because I was

11 able to see him in the coffin.

12 Q. I'm sorry. I just put to you the testimony of a witness who

13 testified as a protected witness. So this is not what I'm claiming. I'm

14 just trying to put together this jigsaw puzzle.

15 A. And I'm here just to tell the truth, Mr. Praljak.

16 Q. Whatever happened - and the Trial Chamber will be able to

17 ascertain that on the basis of various elements in the end, I'm sure - I

18 want to know the following: You claim that at least 500 HVO soldiers, and

19 two of the units as we came to learn, were special units, Maturice and

20 Apostoli, and that they attacked the village that was defended by a

21 certain number of people who had rifles, machine-guns, and whatever. 170

22 people were gathered in a place. You said that some of those who attacked

23 the village were under the influence of drugs.

24 So how is it possible that if the overall plan was to kill the

25 inhabitants of Stupni Do, how is it possible that an armed force of this

Page 25725

1 magnitude, that included two good units in military terms, that they

2 decided not to attack 170 people defended by a handful of people after

3 just two hand grenades were thrown? Is this possible?

4 If somebody is really bent on killing these people, as you're

5 saying, who would decide not to proceed after only two hand grenades were

6 thrown? Is this, according to you, logical in military terms?

7 We all went through this war, so did you see that or did you just

8 hear stories about that?

9 A. The information about the accurate number of participants in

10 Stupni Do village I read in the autobiography by Mr. Miroslav

11 Pejcinovic -- actually, it was Ante Pejcinovic, the then chief of the

12 Vares HVO, who published a book. The Defence line was very long, and a

13 lot of people were needed to man that line.

14 According to Mr. Pejcinovic, between 400 and 500 men participated,

15 and I'm talking about real soldiers, those who had already participated in

16 fighting. There were about 120 according to his statement, and they were

17 Maturice and Apostoli. The other HVO troops were from our own mess, from

18 the neighbouring villages close to the Stupni Do commune.

19 There was the Pukovnija Brigade from Mir, there was one from

20 Bijelo Polje, from the village of Perizici [phoen], all of which were

21 close to the local commune of Stupni Do.

22 Q. Very well, then. Just tell me whether you saw anybody throwing

23 hand grenades and whether you saw those soldiers under the influence of

24 drugs giving up on their attempt. Did you see it?

25 A. I heard that from the people who were in that atomic shelter that

Page 25726

1 I spoke about a little while ago.

2 Q. Was that just one atomic shelter or were there more houses? There

3 is no single house in Stupni Do that accommodate 200 people.

4 A. The attack reached the two or three houses that remained there in

5 the bottom part of the village. As for the exact number there were in the

6 first or second or third house, I really can't tell.

7 Q. But Mr. Mahmutovic, if the lines are long and if people withdrew

8 together with the army to the three houses, there are no longer the lines

9 of defence of the BiH army. The HVO was around those three houses. How

10 can there be lines? How could the village had fallen? How come people

11 were in the houses? There is no logic to that.

12 A. You said it, Mr. Praljak, that our soldiers went to the HVO road,

13 that the UNPROFOR took them away.

14 Q. I was saying -- I was just relating the witness's words. If there

15 were three houses left with a few soldiers that were defending them, that

16 means that the rest had been already captured by the HVO and that the HVO

17 with 150 or 200 troops was around those three houses. And even after the

18 two hand grenades were thrown --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a question which

20 perhaps will clarify matters for the Bench.

21 We had a witness, I will not give his name, who clearly indicated

22 what the purpose of this military operation was. According to him, it was

23 to take control of the Bogos hill. According to this witness, this was a

24 hill of a strategic -- of strategic importance, and enabled the people

25 taking it to control the village.

Page 25727

1 So there was an attack and fighting on this hill, and there were

2 wounded people on the HVO side. Two people were injured. After the

3 attack, the hill was taken and the HVO troops who were not -- there were

4 not 500 soldiers but much less.

5 This is what this witness said to us. Does that fit in with what

6 you saw, Because were you there at the time.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the witness

8 said in that statement that one trench, where there were five BH army

9 soldiers and which was above the village to the left, towards the village

10 of Mir, was never captured. It was never taken.

11 They sent the woman to the trench, the one that the lady lawyer

12 spoke about. They sent the woman with the message for these soldiers to

13 surrender. There were some 20 to 30 soldiers around it, and they were

14 trying the whole day to take it but they never succeeded. That trench was

15 between Mir and Stupni Do. That was the second elevation in terms of

16 strategic significance, and some of those --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this trench wasn't taken?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. It was never taken, and it

19 was three kilometres away from the village itself.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the HVO had sent this woman

21 so that these people would surrender?

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I adhere to my question. If the lines except for the trench that

24 was never taken, if all the other lines in Stupni Do were taken, and

25 majority of the population, 107 plus/minus were in the three houses, the

Page 25728

1 HVO is all around, then according to your information, the HVO has

2 anti-aircraft cannon that can pierce every wall of those three houses.

3 According to military logic, would take be of these houses have

4 been any problem at all for the HVO force that was there at the time, in

5 your view?

6 A. The moment when the HVO soldiers entered the village, or at least

7 one part of the village, the mortar fire stopped, the mortar fire

8 stopped. The artillery fire because, of course, they would not shoot at

9 their own men. Everything else that happened was by death sowers and the

10 automatic rifles.

11 Q. Very well. So mortars are easily movable, so are the

12 anti-aircraft cannons, but I won't dwell on that.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we please look at

14 P03877.

15 Q. There is a photo of your house.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] P083877 is the number.

17 Q. Can you please confirm that this is your house? The roof had

18 burned down. It is not habitable, but it is not devastated. And if you

19 want to dig, there is nothing to dig because what had fallen off from the

20 roof, what had burned down, does not pose a problem and cannot bury

21 anybody who would be underneath.

22 A. Yes. The house existed, it's still there, it has not been

23 reconstructed. You can see it any day, any time of day. There is also

24 the atomic shelter. Everything is there.

25 Q. My question to you, sir, was this: Is it true that there is

Page 25729

1 nothing to dig out from here? If there was anybody dead in the basement,

2 anybody who came up to the house could have seen that person?

3 A. Sir, the house was absolutely brand new at the time.

4 Q. I'm not in dispute of that. I'm asking you: The way we see the

5 photo, when the house burned down, when the roof caved in --

6 A. This is not my house.

7 Q. This is not your house?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Then this is the problem on the side of the Prosecutor, because

10 the Prosecutor claims that this is your house.

11 A. No. A while ago that was my house, in the photo.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can you please show it

13 again, P08377.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my house.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. We don't have that photo. I cannot tell whether this is correct

17 or not. There is no telling. Is this your house?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Please, I know it was new. I know that it was torched. All that

20 is correct. But my question is this: If somebody had been killed or died

21 in the shelter outside the shelter around the house, should there have

22 been any digging for these bodies?

23 If there had been a body, you could see it. You didn't have to

24 excavate for it, especially if they were in the shelter.

25 A. Mr. Praljak, 50 per cent of the houses were old. They were made