080110ED

Page 26128

1 After the HVO wounded the witness in his feet, he was transferred

2 to the Heliodrom where he was treated and registered by the ICRC in

3 December 1993. Although the ICRC also visited Vrde, the HVO did not allow

4 them to register the detainees there. The detainees at Heliodrom were

5 also taken by the HVO for forced labour on the front lines in Mostar.

6 Many detainees were wounded and one Bosnian Muslim of those witnesses that

7 he knew, Ibrahim Jasic, died of his wounds.

8 Examination by Mr. Longone:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness EI. Witness, could you hear me?

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. I will refer to you as Witness EI because you have some protective

12 measures rendered by the Trial Chamber, as you understand. I will ask you

13 some questions related to your statement. Did you provide a written

14 statement to the investigators of the ICTY?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember when you gave that statement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was it on the 16th March 1999?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at the time you provided the written statement, did you answer

21 the questions to the investigator truthfully?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you answer those questions as well freely without any

24 coercion?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26129

1 Q. And at the end of the interview, the statement was read back to

2 you in the -- in B/C/S, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then you write -- you signed -- you initialised and signed

5 that statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in Kopice in February 2007, you confirmed the contents of that

8 statement to an officer from the registry?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. And at that time you have a B/C/S copy of that

11 statement?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were allowed to make any corrections and modifications?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you agreed with the statement as it was?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. LONGONE: I will ask now the usher to assist us to give a copy

18 of the exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit 10210. Thank you very much.

19 Q. So, Witness, can you see your statement now?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you recognise the signature as yours in that statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you have any additions to make to that statement?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And do you have to make any corrections to that statement today?

Page 26130

1 A. No.

2 Q. And if I were to ask you questions about the subject matters

3 contained in that statement, would your answers reflect whatever is

4 written in that statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. LONGONE: I would tender into evidence that statement,

7 Your Honour, under seal according to the protective measures.

8 Q. So you heard the Trial Chamber, we have to concentrate on the

9 events that took place in Vitina, so I will ask you questions related to

10 that. In paragraph 10 of your statement you mentioned that 450 Bosnian

11 Muslims were transferred to Vitina camp. Could you describe the group?

12 Were they were civilians or only military?

13 A. Both the military and the civilians.

14 Q. And you mentioned in paragraph 10 that immediately when you

15 arrived into Vitina some soldiers looked for Hamdija Tabakovic. What

16 happened to him?

17 A. Well, when they found him there they started hitting him.

18 Q. And do you know what happened with Mr. Tabakovic afterwards?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did he stay there in Vitina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What happened then?

23 A. Well, they took him away the first night, and I never -- I've

24 never heard anything about him anymore. I heard that he got killed, that

25 they killed him.

Page 26131

1 Q. Thank you very much. Now in relation to the living conditions in

2 Vitina, what was the food you have there?

3 A. Well, those who didn't go to work, they got a quarter of a loaf of

4 bread, and those who did go to work would get a hot meal and a quarter of

5 a loaf of bread [Realtime transcript read in error "some bread and a

6 quarter of meal"].

7 Q. And did you have a doctor there for the 450 detainees?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And what about water? Did you have water?

10 A. Well, there was some rain-water.

11 Q. So basically if it would not rain, would you have water there?

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to intervene.

13 It appears to me that the record is wrong. At page 90 line 8 as far as I

14 could understand the witness in his language he said that if they went to

15 work they could eat a hot meal and a loaf -- and some bread and it says

16 here that they could get a quarter of a meal. So if we could have that

17 corrected.

18 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much. Thank you.

19 Q. So you were referring to the fact that you were having only water

20 from rain-water. What happened when it was not raining there, did you

21 have access to water if the water was finished?

22 A. Well, there was a well, a water well there -- well, maybe they

23 brought some water there in water tank trucks, but there was some water

24 there.

25 Q. And were you allowed to have a shower for the prisoners there?

Page 26132

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many times you were allowed to have a shower?

3 A. Once.

4 Q. Once a week?

5 A. Once a week.

6 Q. Now, in your statement you mentioned that in the beginning the HVO

7 military police guarded Vitina hangar. How were they dressed, those

8 members of the HVO military police?

9 A. Well, in camouflage clothes, and they had belts and pistols.

10 Q. And what colour was that belt?

11 A. White.

12 Q. And then you mentioned that the HVO military police was replaced.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. By whom was it replaced?

15 A. The home guard. That's what they were called.

16 Q. Thank you very much. We are now going to concentrate on the

17 incidents of forced labour that you mentioned, some of them. You said

18 that you were sent to Gola Brda, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in your statement you mentioned that in Gola Brda you saw

21 members of the Croatian military?

22 A. That's what a soldier told us, that he was from Dubrovnik, that he

23 was a Croatian army soldier.

24 Q. And after two months in Vitina and going to Gola Brda and to other

25 areas, you were sent to Vrde, isn't it?

Page 26133

1 A. Vrde.

2 Q. Right. And what did you have to do there at Vrde?

3 A. Well, we dug trenches. We did some engineering work at the line.

4 We built bunkers, and we brought food to the soldiers there.

5 Q. And who transported you from Vitina hangar to Vrde?

6 A. Well, we were brought there by truck. We boarded the truck and we

7 were brought to Vrde.

8 Q. And just before we discuss the subject of Vrde. When you were in

9 the Vitina hangar you said that you were 450 detainees. Could you please

10 describe the condition of that hangar, how big it was -- it was sufficient

11 for all the 450 detainees?

12 A. Well, the hangar was 15 by 10 in size. The conditions there were

13 not good. There were just wooden boards down there and that was all, and

14 in front of the hangar there were some 50 men because we couldn't all fit

15 in. So 50 people, 50 of us, were there in front of the hangar.

16 Q. And when you had to sleep, where did you sleep?

17 A. Well, right there where we were. I was in the hangar but some 50

18 people were outside the hangar.

19 Q. Did you sleep on the floor, on the couch, there was a bed?

20 A. On the wooden boards.

21 Q. In relation to Vrde, what soldiers brought you to Vrde?

22 A. Well, I didn't see the insignia, but they were HVO.

23 Q. Do you remember from what unit they were?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And where were you lodged there in Vrde?

Page 26134

1 A. Well, we were in a house. Half of the house was where we lived

2 and the other half was where a well, a water well, was, that's where we

3 took the water out to drink and to wash.

4 Q. Did you have any beds there to sleep or ...

5 A. No.

6 Q. I want you to concentrate on the incident when you were wounded on

7 your foot. Could you please briefly describe what happened that day.

8 A. Well, we were on the line. Ten people escaped on that day and we

9 were all gathered together down there, and they were looking for Meho to

10 call on the ten people who had fled to come back. They took him away and

11 these men did not come back. Then he brought us down there to the house

12 where we were sleeping. He took five men up there, and after a short

13 while Salko Deronja came back, he was wounded in the leg, and then I was

14 taken away. I went up there and I saw the people, they had been beaten

15 up, they were all swollen, I could hardly recognise them.

16 Q. And did anyone take care of your wound at that point?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So could you describe after the -- after they took you to the --

19 they call you back, what happened to you at that point?

20 A. Well, when I arrived at the headquarters, I was told that I was

21 not supposed to answer nothing or I don't know. They asked me who had

22 organized the escape and I said I didn't know.

23 Q. Now, what happened to you after you answered that?

24 A. The commander then pulled his pistol, put it in my mouth, against

25 my neck and into my ear, and he said that he would shoot me if I didn't

Page 26135

1 say. I said I didn't know. And then he grabbed my foot and he shot me.

2 Q. Was anyone else wounded on that occasion?

3 A. Well, Salko was shot before me.

4 Q. And after they shot at you on your foot, did they take care of

5 that wound?

6 A. Yes, they took me to a place where there was a doctor.

7 Q. And that was immediately after that?

8 A. Yeah, after five minutes.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned that after the -- before the wounds you were

10 used as a human shield in Vrde?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What do you mean you were used as a human shield? Could you

13 please briefly describe that.

14 A. Well, there was this fighting around the Relej or the relay

15 station which was held by the HVO. The BH army attacked that area and

16 they took a part of it, and we were told that we were supposed to take

17 some ammunition and grenades up there. 20 of our prisoners went there and

18 also some soldiers, and that's how we went up there to the Relej.

19 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned that you were registered by

20 the ICRC at one point. Where was that?

21 A. That was at Heliodrom.

22 Q. And how many times have you been visited by the ICRC at the

23 Heliodrom?

24 A. Three or four times.

25 Q. And have you been visited in another place or have you seen the

Page 26136

1 ICRC in another place before being registered in Heliodrom?

2 A. No.

3 Q. With the assistance of --

4 A. No.

5 MR. LONGONE: With the assistance of the usher I will ask to show

6 the witness Prosecution Exhibit P 10211.

7 Q. Witness EI, do you recognise the certificate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did you get that certificate?

10 A. I got it when I was released from the camp, and that was after the

11 new year.

12 Q. And do you agree with the dates recorded in the certificate?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Could you please explain.

15 A. The 2nd of January here, 1993, I wasn't in the camp at that time,

16 it was before.

17 Q. So just to point out to Your Honours because it looks like it was

18 a typo, a mistake in that certificate and it's missing the number 1 of

19 December, 12 December. Thank you very much. I have no more questions,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 There may be 30 minutes left. Who is the counsel who wants to

23 carry out his or her cross-examination? Ms. Alaburic.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

Page 26137

1 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

4 Q. It is the turn of General Petkovic's Defence to start off with the

5 cross-examination, that is why I am taking the floor first. I'm going to

6 ask you a few very simple questions, Witness, just to clarify certain

7 details but before that could you clear something up. In January 1999,

8 did you give a statement to the agency for research and documentation in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. Well I did give a statement, yes. I don't know whether that's the

11 one you mean.

12 Q. Well, if the usher could help us out we could show you the

13 statement.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I have the statement ready here,

15 copies for the Trial Chamber and everybody in the courtroom.

16 Q. Witness, I'm just going to compare that statement of yours with

17 the statement you gave to the ICTY Prosecutor to try and clarify some

18 details. In the statement you gave to the Prosecution of this Tribunal

19 you said that for two months you were in Vitina, and in the statement that

20 you gave to the research and documentation agency you say that you were

21 there for one month and that after one month you left and went to the

22 village of Vrde.

23 Now, can you explain that to us. How long were you in Vitina for,

24 in fact, one month or two months?

25 A. About two months.

Page 26138

1 Q. About two months, right.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, if you handed yourself over on the 29th of June and if seven

4 days later you arrived in Vitina, that means you arrived about -- in

5 Vitina at around the 7th of May -- I mean the 5th of July. I got my

6 numbers and dates mixed up. Yes, the 5th of July.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. Can we then agree that you arrived in Heliodrom sometime in

9 November 1993?

10 A. The end of November.

11 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in the statement you say that in the

12 village of Vrde you spent 105 days in that village; is that correct?

13 A. Roughly speaking, yes.

14 Q. Now, when we add all those days up, it would appear that you spent

15 about a month in Vitina in actual fact? If you do the maths perhaps you

16 can arrive at that same conclusion.

17 A. I was there for about two months.

18 Q. All right, fine. Now, this village, Vrde, is a village between

19 Mostar and Jablanica; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us how far the village is from Vitina, roughly?

22 A. Well, I didn't look to see. There was a tarpaulin on the vehicle

23 so I couldn't see.

24 Q. Do you know how long you were driven from Vitina to Vrde?

25 A. No.

Page 26139

1 Q. When you arrived in the village of Vrde, you never returned to

2 Vitina, is that right, but you went from Vrde, where you were in November

3 1993, you were taken to Heliodrom. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can we then conclude that your - if I can use the term - stay in

6 the village of Vrde, the time you spent in Vrde, was a separate event,

7 separate from your stay in Vitina, regardless of the fact that they were

8 linked by the very fact that you were in captivity. But they're two

9 localities and you spent time there at separate times. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that concludes my

12 cross-examination.

13 Q. Witness, thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Next counsel.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

17 Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. I also have just a few questions for you. Tell me, please, in the

22 same statement that you were provided with by my colleague you said that

23 apart from the one event with Mr. Tabakovic, that incident, that

24 throughout the time you spent in Vitina or Otok, the inmates were not

25 physically maltreated, do you remember saying that; and if so, is that

Page 26140

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'd now like to ask you the following. Tell me, please, the

4 aluminium hangar that was mentioned -- was it a hangar -- when you say

5 "hangar," do you mean a building with walls and a roof? That's what I'm

6 interested in.

7 A. It's built of aluminium, tin, a tin hangar with a roof, yes.

8 Q. And did it have walls too?

9 A. Yes, tin walls. It was all tin, the roof and the walls.

10 Q. I know that this question might be strange and unusual, but I'm

11 asking it and stating this for the benefit of Their Honours and the

12 Trial Chamber. Witness E was heard in this same courtroom, and on pages

13 of the transcript from 22068 to page 22071, in describing the conditions

14 in Otok, this witness said that there was no firm building there, that

15 there was just a shelter, a roof shelter without any walls. That's why I

16 ask this witness that question.

17 That same witness whom I've just mentioned, sir, told us - and you

18 can see this from his statements, also with reference to those pages in

19 the transcript - that Otok -- that security was provided at Otok

20 exclusively by the home guard and that the military police, even in those

21 first days would stop by there from time to time, either when asked to

22 come or to effect control.

23 Do you agree with that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'd like to ask -- my next question will be my last question, my

Page 26141

1 last topic, rather. Now, we saw the Red Cross certificate a moment ago?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you happen to remember who issued you with that certificate?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you receive it from someone from the Red Cross or from some

6 other person? You don't need to know their name.

7 A. Well, I can't remember now.

8 Q. Did you read what it says on the certificate when you received it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And before you arrived here in the courtroom, did you ever tell

11 anybody that this date, the 2nd of January, recorded on the certificate

12 was wrong?

13 A. That's not what I have. This is what I was given.

14 Q. But did you say that -- did you tell anybody that before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you draw attention to this mistake?

17 A. Well, this man here. I said there was a mistake on this.

18 Q. Did you tell the Prosecutor in preparing to testify?

19 A. Yes, I told him. I said this was not correct.

20 Q. But before that you told no one?

21 A. I told no one before that.

22 Q. We just have one document.

23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher come up

24 and get it, please.

25 Q. And while we're distributing the document, it's just a list with

Page 26142

1 names and it will be distributed to everyone including the Prosecutor.

2 You told the Prosecutor that from the 2nd of August, 1992, you were a

3 resident of a place called Novi Seher; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Fine. Now, let's look at this document together, it's

6 P 09440, it is a Prosecution document. Unfortunately, I don't know the

7 date because it was accessed electronically and we couldn't find a date

8 anywhere. Anyway, it is a list of detained citizens from Novi Seher held

9 in Otok camp, Vitina. I don't even know who the author of the document

10 is, it doesn't say. But anyway, sir, would you now look at the name under

11 number 160 and tell me whether you recognise that name. I'm not going to

12 say it out loud.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You know who it's about and who the man is?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And we mentioned him today, did we not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, we just have enough time for you to look through this list of

19 names and tell me if you recognise anybody else?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I've taken a look at the list, too, but nowhere on this list

22 did I see your name.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Have you had a look at the list?

25 A. My name wasn't there.

Page 26143

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 That completes my cross-examination. I have no further questions for this

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two brief areas to

6 cover and with a few questions.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. I just have a few questions for you. Today here you mentioned -

11 and that was on page 91 of the transcript - when you were asked about when

12 you were at Gola Brda, you mentioned a man from Dubrovnik and allegedly

13 someone from the HV. Now I'm going to ask you the following, this man

14 from Dubrovnik, the person who said he was from Dubrovnik, did he have HVO

15 insignia on his uniform?

16 A. We didn't dare look.

17 Q. But you talked to him?

18 A. Well, while we were working, that's what he told us.

19 Q. You heard him speak but you didn't see him?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. So you didn't see any insignia?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in the way he spoke, did he speak the

24 dialect of people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, for example?

25 A. I can't say. I don't know that.

Page 26144

1 Q. All right, fine. Now, the tank, did you see a tank?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see any inscriptions on the tank?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't?

6 A. No, we weren't close enough.

7 Q. Right. So you don't know what markings the tank had?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. And now to move on to another area. You

10 also spoke about the fact that you worked up at that position by the relay

11 station?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you returned back from the relay station or -- well, you said

14 you went there and that you were a human shield up there. Just three

15 brief questions. Up at those positions while there was fighting going on

16 there, did you ever hear that the HVO had any dead on its side?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Anything more precise? Did you hear how many casualties,

19 fatalities?

20 A. Well, two on both sides, both on the HVO side and the BH army

21 side.

22 Q. Not more than that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Fine. Did the HVO have any wounded?

25 A. Yes, one, and I carried him.

Page 26145

1 Q. You don't know whether there were more than one?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And this human shield that you mentioned, in that human shield

4 none of you were killed, right, there were no fatalities?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And none of you were wounded either, were they?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Next counsel, if any? No. Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: No questions. We just wish to thank the gentleman

13 for coming here to give his testimony.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, no questions?

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Ms. Nozica, you're hidden from me there.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No questions

20 for this witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 On behalf of my colleagues, I thank you for coming to testify in

23 The Hague, and I wish you a safe journey back home in your country, but

24 please don't move because we need to remove the screen behind you before

25 rising.