080117ED

Page 26401

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 WITNESS: KEMAL LIKIC [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

8 I shall give the floor to General Praljak's counsel, who has a

9 number of questions to put to you.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

11 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, especially to Their Honours, and

12 everybody in and around the courtroom.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. We speak the same

15 language, you and I, so you don't have to wait for an interpretation. You

16 understand me straight away. But please make short breaks between my

17 question and your answer to facilitate the work of the interpreters so

18 that everybody in the courtroom can follow us. So we'll try and speak

19 slowly and make pauses in between.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Now, could the usher provide the

21 witness with a folder that we provided yesterday, and could the usher

22 while he's there, while he's on his feet -- well, there's one document

23 there in that folder. For the record it is document P 08461. It is a

24 document signed by Mesinja [phoen] Mahmutovic from your own town. It was

25 compiled on the 22nd of February, 1994. Have you opened the document?

Page 26402

1 For the record, the document was used yesterday by the Prosecutor.

2 [In English] I would kindly ask usher to assist the witness. Obviously

3 there is some problem.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Now you have the document, which you saw

5 yesterday; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'd just like to ask you the following with respect to that

8 document: The person under number 15, it says Likic Medina, Sulejman,

9 father's name, also was killed, and yesterday you said she was a fighter.

10 Now, other people need not understand this, but judging by the name,

11 that's a female. It's a woman, is it not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, in the days before the conflict, did she wear a camouflage

14 jacket?

15 A. She wore a camouflage jacket because she was a cook in the kitchen

16 cooking for the army in Stupni Do.

17 Q. All right. And her status was the status of fighter; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Combatant?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, let's clear something else up linked to that.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Does the witness have the

23 Prosecution folder in front of him? If not, could the usher help us out

24 here, please. [In English] In Prosecution folder the document number

25 P 08659. 8659. It should be there. Okay. Then if it isn't, I would

Page 26403

1 kindly ask you to take mine and put it on ELMO.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, have you seen the document?

3 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I have.

4 Q. Is from the records of dead, death certificate. Now, is that the

5 same person that we saw in the list in the previous document under number

6 15?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Mr. Usher, I will not need any more this document.

10 Thank you.

11 I'd like to show a video now Your Honours, the transcript of which

12 is under 3D 01138, and the video itself has the following number:

13 P 05522. We received the video from the Prosecution, and as we had a

14 break between yesterday and today, we were able to take this out of the

15 documentation. And the Prosecution devoted quite a lot of time showing

16 the photographs of the trenches around Stupni Do, so I think the best

17 thing would be to see a video of those trenches so that we can gain a

18 complete picture.

19 May we have the video shown, please.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The village of Stupni Do itself was

22 long prepared for the execution of this criminal plan. How else could one

23 explain the existence of a significant number of well fortified trenches

24 wherefrom one has a grandstand view of Vares.

25 "These bunkers along with the Bogos elevation encircle the

Page 26404

1 village of Stupni Do which from this vantage point does not look as

2 harmless as one wants to show, unfortunately, even in many world

3 newspapers.

4 "The distribution of bunkers and trenches was such that the

5 Croatian locations under the elevation, as well as the village itself,

6 could be under undisturbed fire.

7 "Here is one of the houses which was a bunker itself. The facade

8 says it all.

9 "Close to the house was one of the best fortified trenches which

10 gives a view of Majdan Vares.

11 "From the other side of the same elevation is the Croatian

12 village of Mir. And right next to it is the Catholic cemetery.

13 "And that's a Croatian house there that was destroyed in the heavy

14 fighting."

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel. Microphone.

16 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry.

17 Q. [Interpretation] The video continues, but there is no more footage

18 showing the trenches around Stupni Do and Bogos, so I don't think we need

19 play it any further. We received the video from the Prosecution, I

20 repeat, and as far as I can see from the material attached, we can see

21 that they received it previously from the government of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Now, Witness, I have one question for you. You've seen this

24 video. Do you happen to have seen that footage on television some time

25 before?

Page 26405

1 A. No, I've never seen it.

2 Q. Well, yesterday there was quite a lot of discussion during your

3 testimony about that, and you were shown photographs, and on the

4 photographs you indicated the trenches that you were able to see.

5 Now that you've seen the video, are those the same trenches that

6 we talked about yesterday?

7 A. I didn't recognise anything there, to be quite frank. I didn't

8 recognise anything. The trench that you could see, Vares Majdan, well,

9 there's one at Bogos -- well, I don't know. You can't see it from this

10 vantage point, from Vares Majdan.

11 Q. All right. Now, not to waste time, there were a number of

12 photographs from Bogos and the other side down towards the village. Did

13 you recognise the village as being your own village?

14 A. Well, to be quite frank, I didn't recognise it as being my

15 village. It's not quite clear to me. I didn't recognise the houses. I

16 looked at the photograph, but the only thing that I could recognise was

17 the house next to the cemetery, Mahmutovic Dervis, and the former shop

18 where Mir and Stupni Do were supplied with goods.

19 Q. So can I put it this way: You say you didn't recognise it. So

20 it's a matter of human perception. Do you state that they are not

21 photographs of Stupni Do and the surrounding parts and the trenches around

22 Stupni Do, including Bogos hill? Can you say no, that is not it, or is

23 what you're saying, "I just can't recognise it"? There's a difference

24 there, you know.

25 A. To be quite frank, I can't recognise any of it.

Page 26406

1 Q. Except for the two features that you told us of a moment ago.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you recognise those facilities and features as belonging to

4 your village?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I don't think there's any point in showing the video again, Your

7 Honours. I think what we've shown is sufficient. I can't speak of

8 authenticity but I do believe in its authenticity because as I say the

9 material was provided to us by the Prosecution and the Prosecution got it

10 from the BH government, so it's certainly authentic. And from our own

11 knowledge and information, members of our team were in Stupni Do, they

12 toured the area and were quite certain that that is what it depicts.

13 I would like to thank the witness. I have no further questions,

14 but I would like to table a request now to the Trial Chamber in keeping

15 with their previous decision of the 10th of May last year to allow General

16 Praljak to ask several questions. My arguments in favour of that are the

17 same as for Witness Mahmutovic of the 12th of December last year. If need

18 be I can repeat that, but I don't want to waste time unless you

19 specifically ask me to go and explain again.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before General Praljak puts

21 questions, I have a question to put to you which is in line with this

22 video, we can, if need be, all watch again. This video shows that there

23 is, at the least, one trenches -- one trench that overlooks Vares Majdan,

24 and just alongside it there is a house. This house, according to the

25 video, was also a bunker.

Page 26407

1 On watching the video, I say to myself that when you are standing

2 in this trench Vares Majdan is two or three kilometres away as the crow

3 flies, and therefore where this trench is positioned one has a strategic

4 overview. So are you challenging that there is a trench there, or are you

5 not challenging it?

6 If you like, we can watch the video again. It's a very short one.

7 I think the best would be to display it again, please. Can we display

8 the video again, please. So we shall look at it again. So have a close

9 look at this.

10 [Videotape played].

11 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The village of Stupni Do itself was

12 long prepared for the execution of this criminal plan. How else could one

13 explain the existence of significant number of well-fortified trenches

14 where from one has a grandstand view of Vares.

15 "These bunkers along with Bogos elevation encircled the village

16 of Stupni Do, which from this point of view does not look as harmless as

17 one wants to show, unfortunately, even in many international newspapers.

18 "The arrangement of bunkers and trenches was such that the

19 Croatian locations under the elevation, as well as the village itself,

20 could be under constant fire.

21 "This is one of the houses that was itself a bunker. This facade

22 says it all.

23 "Close to the house there is one of the best fortified trenches

24 which commands a view of Majdan Vares.

25 "On the other side of the same elevation there is a Croatian

Page 26408

1 village Mir, and next to it the Catholic graveyard."

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, sir, we've just seen the

3 video again. We've seen a trench, and from this trench we can see Vares

4 Majdan directly, and at one stage the camera is zooming in, and you can

5 just about see the windows of the houses. Are you challenging -- are you

6 challenging this? What do you have to say to that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no houses close to our

8 trenches. The trench that I just saw from which you could see Vares

9 Majdan, that was the trench on the top of Borova Glava. Partly it faced

10 Vares Majdan, and partly it faced the Nisic plateau. As for the other

11 trenches, I'm not familiar with any of them.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you've identified

13 a trench that overlooks Vares Majdan. So you can confirm that there was a

14 trench there, but on the other hand you say you do not recognise the other

15 trenches.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that there was a

17 trench at Borova Glava locality which I have just recognise, and you could

18 see Vares Majdan from there. But the closest house is more than 200

19 metres away. The houses that I saw in the footage was the house of Halid

20 Likic, and there was no trench there ever. There was just the house which

21 still stands there today, and it hasn't been refurbished. Next to it is a

22 pathway or a road, and there are no trenches anywhere near that.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The trench at Borova Glava, when

24 the village was attacked were there ABiH soldiers in this trench?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 26409

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were they killed? Were they

2 detained? Did they run away? What happened with the men in this trench?

3 A. As far as I know, and as far as from what I heard, I did not see

4 anything myself because I wasn't there, nobody was killed in that trench.

5 They just had to abandon the trenches. They had to flee. I don't know

6 what -- how else to put that. We're talking about this trench on Borova

7 Glava.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 General Praljak -- yes, Mr. Flynn.

10 MR. FLYNN: Just one matter, Mr. President if I may ask

11 Mr. Kovacic just on a point of information. The transcript --

12 Mr. Kovacic. I'm sorry. The transcript that accompanied the video might

13 be regarded as somewhat Partisan from the Croat standpoint of view. May I

14 ask was this transcript -- is this an assessment of the Defence, the

15 transcript that accompanied the video, or is this a transcript that

16 accompanied the original video coming from the BiH? I have never seen the

17 video before and that's why I ask.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in the documents

19 you gave us a translation in English of what seems to accompany the -- the

20 video. So the translation, is this the translation of the comments by the

21 journalist that can be heard on the video, or does it come from somewhere

22 else? Please?

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the folder that you

24 have just mentioned, there are two documents. One is a surrogate

25 [indiscernible] videos, and that is a Prosecutor's document that

Page 26410

1 accompanies the video. This is document that we received together with

2 the video, and that is in e-court. It arises from that document where the

3 video comes from, and I base my assumption that the Prosecutor provided us

4 with a video on that document and the Prosecution received it from the

5 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 The other document, 3D 018, and with the words "Office

7 translation" in the right-hand corner, this is what my staff transcribed

8 earlier this morning. They just transcribed a comment of the anchor that

9 is heard on the video. I'm not claiming that this is a perfect

10 translation, but what we could hear, what we could transcribe we did in

11 good faith, and while the witness was watching the video I could hear the

12 interpreters to -- who were trying to interpret from the video footage,

13 and this is more or less the same what we did.

14 And the video itself was disclosed to us by the Prosecution

15 according to Rule 65, and that's it. And I don't know anything else about

16 its origin. I accept bona fides that this is material that -- that

17 originates from the Prosecution as the material that originates from the

18 former Yugoslavia and that it is credible because they were provided with

19 the governments of the former Yugoslavia.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, you should know these

21 documents since it is the Office of the Prosecutor who disclosed it to the

22 Defence. And when you take a look at the second document video, there are

23 in fact -- there are two different documents, and what we've just seen

24 should be the second video which was shot by the Kiseljak television, and

25 it is indicated that it was a propaganda in favour of the HVO. There

Page 26411

1 should also be interviews with Croats expelled from villages around Vares.

2 This video seems to be much longer than the clip that we've just seen

3 since it's indicated here that there are also interviews of Croats. But

4 the document also indicates that it is something coming from the Kiseljak

5 television.

6 MR. FLYNN: I had seen that and I was just inquiring as to whether

7 or not the -- the short summary which accompanied the video was an extract

8 from that or was it an assessment made by the Defence themselves, but I

9 think I'm clear on the point now.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the record I

11 believe that there may have been a misunderstanding here. The video

12 contains other things, but according to my modest opinion for this witness

13 I have used only one part of the video. There are other stories in there

14 that are not necessarily connected, and the transcript that we provided

15 with the document, 3D 01138. It says here that what we're showing is the

16 part of the footage between 09.25 and 12.30.

17 The words that you heard were transcribed by our team. This is

18 what we wanted to show. We denoted the time on the video as the time that

19 we want to use with this witness. The Prosecutor can use this part or any

20 other parts, and they are more than welcome to use whatever they want to

21 use. I've selected this part because it's relevant for the witness that

22 we are -- we see here today.

23 Yesterday the witness spoke about the trenches. He was provided

24 with the photos of the trenches, and we all know from experience that the

25 information that we receive based on photos, video differ from what can be

Page 26412

1 seen on the ground, and that's what I wanted to obtain, the identification

2 of those trenches.

3 If my learned friend has problems with the authenticity of this

4 material, I appreciate that, but I was not the one who provided the video

5 to them. It was the other way around.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just to have no doubts in the ear. The part that

8 we have been shown is a part of the second footage that is mentioned here;

9 is that correct?

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is one of the same

11 video, but it is somewhat longer and I have only taken one excerpt, and in

12 the description surrogate sheet you can see that there are different

13 parts. I have concentrated just on one part that was relevant for this

14 witness, but it's all one video footage, one long video footage from which

15 I just took one part.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That is clear to me. What I'm referring to is

17 that the document mentions, first in a small paragraph, first footage, and

18 then a longer paragraph, second footage. The second footage here is

19 accompanied by certain comments which are, as it seems, not related to the

20 first footage, and I just wanted to make sure, and it is likely because

21 the first footage only seems to be in the morgue, that it is an excerpt of

22 the -- of what is here called "Second footage 05:51 to 32:20.

23 Thank you very much.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel.

25 Microphone for the counsel.

Page 26413

1 MR. KOVACIC: Sorry, sorry very much. [Interpretation] Now I

2 understand your question. You can see from the surrogate sheet that these

3 are two video footages. We did not touch their first one. We did not use

4 the first one. We used the second one and only one part from the second

5 video that you have just seen.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And to be entirely clear, the

7 transcript in your document 3D 1138 is the Croatian version of the

8 comments made by the journalist, and the English version, that is the

9 translation of such comments, because it starts in English with "The

10 village of Stupni Do itself," and then it continues from there.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] This is our office of translation.

13 This is not a CLSS translation. If anybody contests our office

14 translation, I'm going to send it to CLSS for official translation, but I

15 don't see the point. This is just a courtesy for others to be able to

16 follow. And we heard all these words in Croatian. They have been

17 translated by our office.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 General Praljak to conclude.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

21 Honours.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, please limit yourself

23 to technical questions, military questions, but you know this already.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It goes without saying that

25 I should do that.

Page 26414

1 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Likic.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. You will appreciate that this Court needs to investigate certain

5 details. I appreciate your family tragedy, and I don't wish in any way

6 or form to hurt your feelings by my questions. However, in order to

7 clarify the whole situation, some questions need to be asked and they will

8 be of military and technical and mathematical nature.

9 First of all, I would like the usher to put this photo in front of

10 Mr. Likic in order to round off this story about Vares Majdan and the

11 trenches that were facing it.

12 This is a photo that you already saw yesterday. I marked it by

13 number 4. Can you please put it on the ELMO, and we will define certain

14 things based on this photo.

15 Yesterday in this photo, in its part that depicts your village and

16 is facing Vares Majdan, you showed us bunkers on -- into parts in the left

17 and in the right. Did I -- do my markings match your marks as you put

18 them in the photo yesterday?

19 A. How shall I call this? The sentry point has to be moved a bit

20 further down toward the so-called Botuk [phoen], and as for the X marking

21 this is Stijencica, and this is correct. This is the entrance from

22 Prnjavor.

23 Q. Could you please take the pen and mark the exact positions and

24 correct where I was wrong. Please mark the exact places where the

25 trenches were, where the bunkers were.

Page 26415

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Put a circle around that and number 1 next to that circle.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And also mark the second bunker, the second trench, the place

5 where they were.

6 A. It's in the same place.

7 Q. Can you please put a number 2 next to that.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And at the right bottom side of the picture where you see Vares

10 Majdan, can you please put a number 3 next to that.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. This is Vares Majdan, isn't it?

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Can you please put the full photo on the ELMO. Thank you.

15 Okay. This is very similar.

16 In the previous footage we saw two bunkers. One was made of wood,

17 and the other one also contained sandbags or earth bags. It was well

18 fortified, wasn't it? The thing that you marked by number 2, is that

19 Borova Glava?

20 A. No, this is Stijencica.

21 Q. Stijencica?

22 A. Towards Pajtov Han, i.e., towards Prnjavor.

23 Q. Very well, then. Yes. And where then would be Borova Glava

24 according to you? Where is the Borova Glava a trench that you spoke about

25 a little while ago, you mentioned it?

Page 26416

1 A. You can't see it in this photo but you can -- it would be towards

2 me but in a different photo.

3 Q. Can you place an arrow pointing in the direction of Borova Glava,

4 please?

5 We will try and talk more slowly and try not to overlap, because

6 the interpreters cannot follow.

7 My question is this: Can you please put an arrow on the photo in

8 the direction of Borova Glava?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Mr. Likic, I have here in front of me the trenches around the

11 village of Stupni Do, so show P 09399. 9399.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you've just shown trenches

13 number 1, trench number 2, and number 3, which is the Vares village. In

14 the middle of the photograph we can see your own village covered in snow.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So the village is in the

17 middle of the photograph. Here is my question: When the HVO troops

18 attacked to take those two trenches, from which direction did they come?

19 Did they arrive from Vares, number 3, or did they come crossing the

20 village? Do you have any information on this?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I can tell you. This

22 trench, number 1, Potok, as it was called, the HVO soldiers arrived there

23 by the road straight from Vares Majdan to the village of Stupni Do.

24 Across, I mean. There's a road connecting the straight and one round

25 about.

Page 26417

1 Now, when the soldiers took Bogos hill, they went down the

2 left-hand side and took the one where the arrow is, and then there's a

3 hamlet lower down where they killed the people I said they'd killed

4 yesterday, those ten people.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. As we'll need this later on, would you please mark that place that

8 you've just told us about, Prica Do, where as you say these ten people

9 were killed. You can probably see that very well there, so where is that

10 Do and where are those houses?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you. Put a number 4 there then, please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And as I read in your statement, you went there at a certain point

15 in time, and from there you went to your own house. So could you mark in

16 your house now.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And put a number 5 there, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. May we put the date on the photograph and have the

21 witness's signature and then an IC number, please.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please write your

23 initials on the photograph, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Or your name.

Page 26418

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a number

3 for that photograph, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph will become Exhibit

5 IC 784.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Likic, can we agree on a military question now. According to

8 what we've seen on this photograph and the other photographs, the bunkers

9 that you marked on the other photographs previously, whether the trenches

10 around the village were made in a circle. That is to say they encircled

11 the village along the possible axes of attack. Would that be correct?

12 A. All the trenches around the village were in a circle surrounded

13 with Potok, Stijencica, Bogos, Do, Borova Glava, Raskrsce, and Bradica.

14 Q. Thank you. So we can agree that it was a circular defence for the

15 village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now I'd like to go through exactly what you -- the way you moved

18 because that wasn't done properly. The night before the attack onwards.

19 So I'm going to ask you simple questions, and I hope to receive simple

20 answers from you.

21 The document, the P document that I had up is P 09399 and --

22 Witness, that's the documents that you made the markings on; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you've signed it, and you agree that that's how the trenches

Page 26419

1 were situated?

2 A. Yes. And that's what the photograph shows.

3 Q. Thank you. Now we'll take it slowly. In the night between the

4 22nd and the 23rd of October, 1993, you stood guard at the locality that

5 you indicated to us.

6 A. Borova Glava.

7 Q. Borova Glava. Yes. Right. Now, on the 23rd, at 7.15, you were

8 sitting in your house waiting for a cup of coffee when the attack started;

9 is that right?

10 A. The attack began -- I didn't have a watch, but it began at around

11 8.00 or maybe five minutes past 8.00 in the morning.

12 Q. All right. Now, at that time you took up your weapon and went

13 towards Bogos hill, a place called Ravasnica, and you indicated that to us

14 on an earlier photograph. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We don't have to repeat that then. You then say in your

17 statement, the statement you gave, that there were 11 soldiers there; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes. Ten or 11 is what I said.

20 Q. Right. And then you went on to say that the fighting lasted an

21 hour and a half?

22 A. I think I said approximately. I didn't have a watch. Let me

23 repeat again. I don't know exactly how long it went on for. I was

24 speaking approximately because I didn't have a watch on my arm.

25 Q. Well, two and a half hours or three hours, it's not important.

Page 26420

1 Roughly, you say.

2 Now, then after two and a half, three hours, your wife Kada came;

3 is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After that, in your statement you say that after that time, and

6 that is to be found on page 4 of the text that I have -- so with two women

7 that makes the number of people up to 13. And then you say that some

8 people left you at that time, and the people who were left was you,

9 Vejsil, Nihad, Enver, and Suvaid, and two women, that they stayed in

10 Ravnica; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After that five of the 11 left, and you say they left to defend

13 the village?

14 A. I said that two or three soldiers ran to the village.

15 Q. Mr. Likic, I'm just counting. You say there were 11 plus two

16 women. That makes it 13. Then you say you Vejsil, Nihad, Enver, and

17 Suvaid stayed, and that makes it six men and two women. So five people.

18 And then you go on to say: "And the rest went down to the village to

19 defend their families." That's what it says in the statement?

20 A. Yes, that's true, but it needn't mean three because I wasn't -- I

21 thought I could be killed any moment, so I wasn't fully aware of what was

22 going on.

23 Q. That's why we're speaking -- talking slowly here and taking it

24 step-by-step. But anyway, in this statement you say that these five

25 people went to the village to defend their families. Does that mean that

Page 26421

1 they took their rifles with them, the rifles they had?

2 A. Let me explain. Your Honours, quite frankly and sincerely, we as

3 soldiers in Stupni Do only had 28 barrels. However, there were 11 of us

4 up there. So those 11 perhaps only had six weapons. Just six. You

5 understand that? Maybe it was even five. And so if anyone were to be

6 killed or wounded, then we went to take over the weapons and to continue

7 shooting if there was any ammunition left. So that, friend, is what

8 happened, how things were. And I state quite honestly that that's what it

9 was, but we did not all of us, all 11 of us, have weapons.

10 Q. Mr. Likic, I don't want to contradict you. I wasn't there at all.

11 I'm just trying on the basis of the statement to reconstruct what happened

12 together with all the other people here in the courtroom. So I'm just

13 asking you a logical question. If five people, according to your

14 statement, you say went to defend their families, would you not ask the

15 same question? If they were going to defend their families then probably

16 they have weapons with them. That's a simple question?

17 A. Of those five there might have just been one or two weapons. And

18 I repeat that. And they went down to the village. They rushed down to

19 the village. It doesn't mean that they all had weapons. And we did

20 not -- they did not all have weapons. I told you exactly and frankly how

21 many weapons we actually did have.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we need a specific answer

23 to this -- to that question. When your wife came to see you and to tell

24 you that they were asking you to surrender, it means that the HVO was

25 already in the village. So there were HVO fighters, armed men, in the

Page 26422

1 village. Somebody comes and asks you to surrender. You're telling

2 General Praljak then five men out of the 11 who were with you went to the

3 village. Were they carrying weapons or not? That's the question.

4 Because if they leave with a weapon, it means that there will be some

5 shooting, because of course the other men in the village will see armed

6 soldiers coming towards them and they might shoot at them.

7 So are you telling us that they went to the village to defend --

8 they could defend even without having their weapons with them at that

9 time? So can you remember? Did they have weapons when they left or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that they might have one or

11 two rifles, but not all of them had rifles. They mostly went to see their

12 families to see what had happened to them, those that hailed from the

13 village itself.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Likic, all right. Please do not think that I'm trying to put

16 words into your mouth. I am just asking questions based on which -- on

17 what you stated. These people that ran into the village to defend it,

18 according to you and had one or two or I don't know how many rifles, did

19 they wear military uniforms, at least partly? Did some of them wear

20 trousers or blouses or boots? Did they have parts of uniforms on them?

21 A. Yes. They looked very colourful. Some had normal clothes, some

22 had trousers. They did not all have the whole uniform as the army would.

23 Q. In your statement you say that those of you who stayed went to

24 Budozelj to inform the BH army to send help; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26423

1 Q. Further on you stated that later on four men had left you, Enver,

2 Nermin, Suvaid, and Harad [phoen], and they went to Budozelj; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes. Three men left us, not four. Two stayed with me together

5 with two women.

6 Q. Very well. You said four, and I'm just asking. Now you're saying

7 three.

8 A. The numbers don't have to match. It was really a lot of the

9 psychosis in the air. That's why I'm not sure about the numbers.

10 Q. I know, sir, how it looks. That's why we're going through things

11 slowly taking things one at a time. Dzafer Rasim and Fadil Likic stayed

12 with you; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you and Kemal Likic [as interpreted] stayed on together with

15 two women; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After that you ran across a clearing. You were shot at, and as

18 for the two women they were not shot at. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On same day, at 19.45 on the 23rd of October, 1993, at 19.45 hours

21 you arrived at Pecina?

22 A. Yes. This was the so-called Stijene above Pajtov Han.

23 Q. At 21.30 hours or thereabouts you skirted Bogos; is that correct?

24 And you arrived at Pajtov Han on the 24th of October, 1993, approximately

25 around 2.00 after midnight; is that correct?

Page 26424

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Fadil Likic also left you at the time and went to Budozelj?

3 A. He left us on the following night, not on that night. You can

4 read it in my statement that it was on the following night.

5 Q. Dzafer Rasim stayed together with you and with the two women; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And now let's talk about that night and about Monday the 25th

9 October 1993 when you started walking towards the village to see what had

10 happened. You were hungry. You were thirsty.

11 A. I apologise. Can you repeat the date?

12 Q. It was Monday.

13 A. Yes. Monday, the 25th of October.

14 Q. Was it at around 8.00 in the morning?

15 A. Yes, that's when we left Stijene and started walking towards our

16 village.

17 Q. Very well. And you arrived in your own village around 11.00 and

18 30 [as interpreted]?

19 A. No. It was not in the village but above the village.

20 Q. You arrived in Prica Do that we marked?

21 A. Even further from Prica Do. Here, thereabouts.

22 Q. In Krcevine; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's what is known as Krcevine.

24 Q. Krcevine, Prica Do?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26425

1 Q. And this is where you stayed to see what had happened in the

2 village. You observed the situation; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then you observed people coming into the village and this is

5 something that is not of any interest to me. What I would like to hear

6 from you is this: Did you see that on 25th of October, the day when you

7 observed the village, an UNPROFOR vehicle entered the village carrying

8 Mr. Martin and Ivica Rajic; did you notice that from the place where you

9 were?

10 A. No I didn't.

11 Q. Very well, then you did not notice anything on the 25th. And now

12 towards the end of the day, we're talking about Monday, when it was

13 already getting dark the had sun set as you said, you arrived at your

14 house; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it was already dark when I arrived at my house.

16 Q. Very well then. And now it says Rasim stayed outside and waited

17 for me; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. He stayed above my house.

19 Q. And you entered the house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you say that you found something that looked like a body that

22 was lying on -- on its stomach; is that correct?

23 A. I found three women's bodies.

24 Q. Hold on. Hold on. You will find that later. First you found

25 something that looked like a body, and I'm quoting your own statement. "I

Page 26426

1 came upon something that looked like a body that was lying on its stomach.

2 I saw that it was a charred and some pieces of meat were hanging from its

3 flanks." Please. I went numb immediately and I thought that could be the

4 body of my own son Adis."

5 And you go on and say I decided to carry the body and bury it in

6 the nearby Muslim cemetery.

7 Now I would like to hear from you this: Did you find this body in

8 the house?

9 A. I found this body as I was approaching the house and the pavement

10 above the house.

11 Q. Very well then. And this was the body of Merima Likic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You say that the body was outside of the house on the pavement.

14 A. Yes. On the -- next to the pavement if you know where the

15 pavement is.

16 Q. Yes I do. Thank you. And she was completely burned but you

17 recognised the stockings and you could tell that it might have been Merima

18 Likic; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you entered the house --

21 A. I entered the cellar.

22 Q. The cellar. And you saw the bodies of Nevzeta and Hatidza and

23 Medina in the pit that you used to store potatoes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You say here that you wanted to bury the body of Merima Likic in

Page 26427

1 the nearby cemetery. Did you do that?

2 A. Yes. At first I thought when I saw the body -- actually, when the

3 saw the women's stockings, before that I thought that this was the body of

4 my son that was killed not far from there.

5 Q. But when you saw that this was a woman, you did not bury the body.

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. The late Mrs. Medina is the same Medina who was a member of the

8 BiH army. She was a soldier of the BH army, wasn't she?

9 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't understand it.

10 Q. In the pit there were three bodies.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The Medina whom you saw, was she wearing a camouflage uniform, and

13 was she a member the BiH army?

14 A. Medina Likic only had a military vest on her body, nothing else.

15 She had been a member of the BH army because she was the main cook who

16 prepared lunches for the BiH army.

17 Q. Thank you very much. And let's finish with this. On the 25th, in

18 the evening when you saw when you saw what you saw, you say that you went

19 away from the place, that you left the place, and that in the morning on

20 the 26th, and now we're talking about Tuesday, 26th of October, 1993, at

21 6.00 in the morning, UNPROFOR received you because they had been inviting

22 people to approach them, and they took you to the free territory of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In the first statement that you provided, to the OTP on the 16th

Page 26428

1 of March -- I apologise. The statement was provided in 1996. In the

2 second statement that you provided in 1998, I believe in 1998, actually,

3 1998, you now -- actually on the 28th of October, 1998, you now add --

4 added something to what you'd seen in your cellar, and you say that the

5 three persons that you saw in your cellar had been massacred. Hatidza had

6 her throat slit and her left breast had been cut off.

7 "When I grabbed Nevezta's head to lift her head I could see that

8 her left side of the face had been massacred, and chiseled. Medina looked

9 like as if she had been sleeping. I did not notice any wounds of her --

10 on her body simply because I didn't want to touch her."

11 My first question sir is this: How come did you not say all that

12 in your first statement? How come you did not describe things as

13 precisely as that? Why do your first statement and the second statement

14 different in these very gruesome but very important details?

15 A. Can you please repeat the first statement? What year was that?

16 Q. In 1996 you only said that you saw three bodies. In your first

17 statement in 1996 you say: "I descended into the cellar of my house that

18 had been burnt completely."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "I lit a lighter and I saw Nevzeta, Hatidza and Medina's bodies in

21 the pit we used to store potatoes. There was a big red candle lying

22 beside the pit. There were wooden planks and some sacks inside the dead

23 cellar. I pushed them aside thinking or hoping into my son might be

24 hiding behind them, but it was a vein effort and you started looking for

25 bread and so on and so forth. That's the first statement.

Page 26429

1 The second statement is the statement that says this: "Hatidza's

2 throat had been slit. She had been slaughtered. Her left bosom had been

3 cut off. Nevzeta's left face had been smashed," and you also added that

4 the red candle bore the markings of the HDZ and that it bored the word

5 HDZ.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, I understand these are terrible details, gruesome details one

8 retains for their whole life, but I would like to know this: How come did

9 you not provide all these details in the first statement? Why your

10 description lacked all these details. How come that only your second

11 statement contained all those details?

12 A. Let me put it this way and be very frank: In the first statement

13 I said that there were three bodies; that's correct. That they had been

14 massacred, but I did not provide any details as to how they had been

15 massacred.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Praljak.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That they were killed. And in the

18 second statement I provided details. I said that they had been massacred

19 and that Hatidza's throat had been slit and her breast had been cut off.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. In the first statement I did not want to say all that because of

23 the neighbours that lived next door. That was the only reason, the only

24 reason. There was no other reason. I did not want to hurt their

25 feelings. I did not want to upset them again. Those were my neighbours,

Page 26430

1 my friends. Nevzeta was even my relative, my cousin's wife.

2 Q. Very well then. Thank you. Now I would like to know this: In

3 the second statement you say: "Three days later UNPROFOR found five more

4 bodies in the part of the house that I had not visited, and they had all

5 been charged -- they had all been charred, those bodies."

6 Tell me, please, according to everything that we know here in this

7 court UNPROFOR entered Stupni Do on the 26th of October, 1995. 1993 the

8 soldiers entered together with the journalists, the investigators, and the

9 civilian police of the United Nations entered Stupni Do, and they counted

10 heads in the village, and they made a video footage. In that video

11 footage one could see the three dead bodies that you mentioned, and we saw

12 this video footage several times. I can run it again for you.

13 And despite all my effort I did not see any signs of massacre on

14 those bodies as you describe it. We're not going to see the footage

15 again. Obviously we could. The footage depicts three bodies laying over

16 each other. I don't know whether anybody had thrown a grenade or not, but

17 what you're describing according with what I saw, I couldn't see any of

18 that.

19 Since there is a video footage of the whole thing, is it possible

20 that at that moment you could not count the number of rifles that were

21 taken to the village? Is it also possible that you could not see the

22 bodies well? Medina was on top in -- wearing a uniform. How could you

23 see the other bodies lying beneath her if you had left them in the same

24 way you found them and in the same way that UNPROFOR found them when they

25 entered the village? Is it possible that in your condition, carrying just

Page 26431

1 a small cigarette lighter in your hands, could you maybe see the picture

2 differently? Maybe you could see things that had not happened, actually.

3 Is that possible? Is that a possibility?

4 A. May I answer now?

5 Q. Yes, of course.

6 A. Merima was lying to the right, to the right, like this. She

7 seemed to be sleeping. I didn't want to disturb her. I lifted Nevzeta up

8 by her hair and her body, her cheek was resting against the potatoes, and

9 Hatidza, I just moved and put her back and there was blood here. That's

10 what I did.

11 With a lighter, you know, it's dark, you have a lighter. So

12 that's what I was able to see, and that's what I said.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Likic. Now, in your statement you -- to the

14 Prosecutor, and you were up there, you said that you don't know whether

15 from your basement there was any shooting.

16 A. Well, how could I know when I wasn't there?

17 Q. So you can't testify about that. Perhaps one of those people --

18 Medina, perhaps, might have had a rifle and might have shot at someone

19 through the window in your basement. You can't know that, can you?

20 A. No, I don't know that, but I said earlier on that we didn't have

21 that many weapons for everybody to be -- to have a weapon to carry,

22 because there were 42 fighters and just 28 barrels.

23 Q. Well, the maths doesn't help us there, but you cannot know either

24 way --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have the feeling that you've

Page 26432

1 overstepped your time, so you need to conclude.

2 There's a question which you should have been asked that hasn't

3 been asked and which I shall put to you.

4 Your house, was it a house that was fortified in the cellar or

5 not? In other words, had you fortified in some manner the cellar of your

6 house or hadn't you done anything about it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't do anything. It's a

8 basement that was made to keep your winter provisions in just with an

9 entrance. And there's nothing else. There was the basement for the

10 winter preserves, and the upper part where we lived with just with a

11 partition wall.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To your knowledge a young woman

13 who was carry -- or wearing a camouflage uniform, who was cooking for the

14 ABiH unit, could this person perhaps have held a gun in her hand?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person didn't have any weapon.

16 Please believe me when I say that. I was there. I know how many weapons

17 we had, and that particular person didn't have a rifle, a gun.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two other women who were with

19 her, could they have had a rifle or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you repeat the question?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that the woman who

24 cooked was carrying no weapons. What about these two other women who were

25 there? Could they have had a rifle?

Page 26433

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why could they have a rifle?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wasn't there, so I don't

4 know. I can't say. I can just assume that they didn't have any, because

5 I know how many weapons we had.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Mr. Praljak, you will have to finish now.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be done

9 very quickly.

10 Q. In your statement, in two places you mention dum bullets and say

11 that you saw a member of the BH army who was killed with a -- and that he

12 had a large hole in his back, and you said that that was cause the by the

13 dum-dum bullets. And then in another place you say that you heard

14 somebody shooting in a trench using dum-dum bullets. Could you explain to

15 Their Honours what these dum-dum bullets are and what the difference is

16 when you shoot with an ordinary bullet and when dum-dum bullets are used?

17 A. Your Honours, I made the statement as it stands. However, in my

18 statement I said that I assume that Zejnil Mahmutovic, whom I found lying

19 on his stomach face down, had a large bloody hole on the back, so I assume

20 that he might have been killed by a dum-dum bullet because of this large

21 hole in his back.

22 Now, this other -- I heard these dum-dum bullets firing. Sort

23 of -- there's a shot once and then another shot later on. I'm not a

24 military expert to be able to explain this to you.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. That's not how dum-dum bullets work. They

Page 26434

1 enter the body and then explode and that's why they're dum-dum or

2 expanding bullets. They weren't available.

3 A. Well, I apologise then.

4 Q. When you waited to return to Stupni Do, you saw an HVO APC --

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honour, because of the

6 overlapping a sentence was omitted when the witness said yes, and I

7 apologise then when Praljak gave his opinion about the dum-dum bullets.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a military expert, so I'm

9 not well-versed in different types of ammunition. I thought that that was

10 something else.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Yes. Thank you. Let's just summarise what you say you saw the

13 HVO had. They had an APC; right?

14 A. Yes. While I was until the Stijene locality for two nights, I

15 spent two nights there, you understand, the first night I wasn't able to

16 pull out between the HVO trenches and go towards free territory with the

17 women, so we went back. We returned and spent two days in the forest

18 looking at what was going on around us. To the left you have Bogos hill

19 and to the right you have Perun hill or, rather, the village of Planinica.

20 Now, in between there's the Vares Majdan road going on to Breza

21 and so forth, and the check-point was set up at the -- on the road to the

22 Han where the village -- where the road to Strijezovo Selo goes. The APC

23 which was made from a mining truck that I knew about because I earnt my

24 pension working in a mine in Vares, in Treskavac [phoen], it was a mining

25 truck that was covered in camouflage, and it went from Vares Majdan to

Page 26435

1 Pajtov Han to that check-point and back several times. We saw it go there

2 and back several times.

3 Now, the other trucks --

4 Q. Just a moment, please. That's something you saw. Now let me ask

5 you this: You also saw that an on a smaller truck --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You need to finish now, because

7 the Bench is getting somewhat impatient.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we just

9 note that the HVO, according to the witness's statement, an anti-aircraft

10 20-millimetre machine gun.

11 Q. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also see on a large truck a large-calibre Bofors

14 anti-aircraft cannon?

15 A. Well, I'm not an expert. There was something like a machine-gun.

16 There were different types of weapons anyway.

17 Q. That's what I wanted to tell Your Honours. We saw that there were

18 170 men at one point and 140 at another point and that with weapons like

19 that you could blow-up the whole village because these weapons destroy all

20 the walls and everything. So it's important to know what the HVO had so

21 that we know how the operation evolved and whether there was any sense to

22 it or not.

23 Thank you, Mr. Likic. Thank you, Your Honours, for allowing me

24 the time to ask the questions.

25 A. Thank you.

Page 26436

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question. I'm

2 surprised as far as military logic is concerned. A military operation

3 that aimed at taking control of Bogos and the village does not wish to

4 target the trenches and take control of these trenches. This is why I

5 would like to have your feeling about it even if you're not a high-ranking

6 officer like General Praljak.

7 In military terms, I don't understand thousand things happen

8 sequentially. So if you leave soldiers in a trench, if you go and send

9 out your wife to ask to surrender, supposing you were holding a mortar.

10 You could have caused a tremendous amount of damage on the -- other side,

11 the HVO troops. So why didn't they take control of all the trenches given

12 that one vehicle was equipped with an anti-aircraft -- 20-millimetre

13 anti-aircraft weapon? So how can you explain this to us?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can explain that. These

15 vehicles -- now, I didn't say whether they were the Bofors type as the man

16 said, or an anti-aircraft cannon or whatever. There were two weapons on

17 two trucks and Pajtov Han and Strijezevo were targeted and behind them

18 there were groups of soldiers at Vares Majdan and Planinica. They didn't

19 shoot at my village. It's a different hill, Perun hill, when I was at the

20 Stijene locality that's what I saw where I spent two nights and went back

21 on the third day, the Monday, up above the village.

22 Now, I didn't understand the last part of what you said. I didn't

23 understand your last question. Ah, yes, you asked about the mortar where

24 I was. Where I was, the village of Radionica. When the women came to me

25 there were no trenches. They had taken control of Bogos and we moved

Page 26437

1 towards Bogos to help our guards there and that's where we met. There

2 were no trenches there, no mortars there. And I heard that there was a

3 60-millimetre mortar in the village but I never saw it to be quite honest,

4 Your Honours, and I didn't hear when it was used either.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic to finish, even

6 though my colleague has just told me that it is time to have the break.

7 Ms. Alaburic, how many minutes do you need?

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I think about 15

9 minutes if the witness can answer all my questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, we shall have a

11 20-minute break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Your Honour, Witness, I would like to greet you

18 and everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Likic, I would like to try and

19 explain a detail that you may remember and that you may also not be aware

20 of, and it concerns the basement in your house where the three women's

21 bodies were found.

22 In a document issued by UNPROFOR that we have already adopted in

23 evidence in this case, and I'm talking about document under number D 6978,

24 and I'm going to be referring to parts and the bullet point 3, a one in

25 this document issued by UNPROFOR, it says that in the basement ten bullet

Page 26438

1 cases of unknown calibre were found. It is also established that there

2 were two small-sized windows covered by sandbags. And in conclusion it is

3 stated that it is possible that this was a fortified facility from which

4 fire had been opened.

5 Tell me, please, did you notice bullet cases when you entered the

6 basement?

7 A. When I entered the basement there were no bullet cases. And as

8 for the sandbags, there were no sandbags on the windows. I am saying

9 again this is a small basement that was used for potatoes, and there were

10 no windows. There are no windows to this day.

11 Q. Very well. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how come that the

12 list of soldiers that were killed in Stupni Do that were shown to you by

13 my learned friend from the Prosecution says that the fighters were from

14 Dabravine. Do you remember that document or do you want me to show it to

15 you again to refresh your memory? This is document number P 8461 in the

16 Prosecutor's binder of documents. This is a document that you saw and

17 identified people who had the status of BiH soldiers.

18 A. You want me to explain?

19 Q. Yes. Can you explain why Dabravine of all places?

20 MR. FLYNN: Just for the point of clarification, this is in fact

21 entitled a list of residents killed in Stupni Do and not a list of

22 fighters. It happens that the witness did identify a number of the ABiH

23 members, BiH members in the list, but it's principally a list of

24 residents, and I think it would be a misdescription entered in the

25 record -- left in record described as a list of ABiH fighters.

Page 26439

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, the list is

2 entitled "List of persons killed in Stupni Do in the municipality," and in

3 that list there is a column with civilians and soldiers.

4 Please proceed, Ms. Alaburic.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] There is no doubt that this

6 document also contains information about civilians, but what I'm

7 interested in at the moment is information about soldiers.

8 Q. In addition to the individuals whom you identified as BiH army

9 soldiers, there's also the entry Dabravine soldier. Why Dabravine?

10 A. Your Honours, I can explain, of course, why Dabravine fighter.

11 All the fighters that UNPROFOR located and found and that were taken to

12 the free territory and could not be buried in the village of Stupni Do

13 were buried in the village of Dabravine, and that's why it says a

14 Dabravine fighter denoting where the burial place was. This doesn't mean

15 that this person hailed from Dabravine.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you for this explanation. Tell me whether the

17 command post of the Vares Brigade of the BiH army was in Dabravine?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In Dabravine was it where the War Presidency of Vares was also

20 located?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell us, please, whether the commander of the BiH army unit in

23 Dabravine was Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the unit of the BiH army that was in Stupni Do, was it part of

Page 26440

1 that 322nd Brigade from Dabravine?

2 A. I suppose so. I really wouldn't know. This is not something that

3 I understand. I'm not an expert.

4 Q. You told us that the commander of this military unit in Stupni Do

5 was Mr. Himzo Likic and that he had been arrested some seven days prior to

6 the attack against Stupni Do. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please tell us who stood in for him as commander of the BH

9 army unit in Stupni Do?

10 A. Yes, I can. It was Suvaid Likic.

11 Q. Very well. As a member of the BH army, where did you receive your

12 meals? Did you receive meals in your own house or did you go to a common

13 place?

14 A. We all received our meals in our own houses save for the times

15 when we were on the line. We received food that had been prepared

16 elsewhere. Our trenches were far away from our homes. That's why food

17 was brought to us.

18 Q. Mr. Likic, did you ever hear, as we did, that an order reached

19 Stupni Do from Dabravine on the 22nd of October, on the eve of the attack,

20 ordering that the village should be evacuated because of the expected HVO

21 attack? Did you ever hear a piece of information to that effect?

22 A. Your Honour, I've never heard any such thing.

23 Q. Did you ever hear that on the eve of the attack in the village of

24 Stupni Do the population held a meeting which was a meeting of the local

25 commune or the village council and that the villagers decided as to what

Page 26441

1 should be done, whether they should be mobilised, whether the Defence

2 should be organised, or whether they would possibly be evacuated? Did you

3 ever hear of that meeting?

4 A. No, I never heard of that meeting either.

5 Q. I would like to confront you with part of the testimony by

6 Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic who testified in this courtroom and said something

7 about the questions that I've just put to you. His statements are

8 contained in document number P 10015.

9 He told us that the villagers of Stupni Do had expected an HVO

10 attack because the brother of one of your neighbour, who was a Croat, had

11 arrived in the village and took out the entire family. Based on that

12 Husnija Mahmutovic and other witnesses from Stupni Do had concluded that

13 the HVO was preparing an attack on Stupni Do.

14 Are you familiar with the fact that Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic

15 mentioned?

16 A. Yes, but I heard that only later on when the attack had already

17 been finished.

18 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic went on to say that the village council was in

19 session and decided to mobilise all the population of the village and to

20 prepare them to defend the village.

21 You are saying that you are not aware of that meeting or of that

22 decision?

23 A. No, and I'm telling you honestly that I don't know.

24 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic went on to say that all the trenches that we have

25 seen these days had been completely arranged and some few -- a few

Page 26442

1 kilometres away from the village, that on the eve of the attack the

2 villagers inspected all the trenches, checked that everything was in

3 place, that they inspected the protection of the houses by sandbags, that

4 they had established whether the supplies of water were sufficient to

5 extinguish possible fires, that you had a short first-aid training, and

6 that they were prepared in that way they expected that attack but that in

7 principle they hoped that there would be no attack at all.

8 Are you familiar with any of the circumstances that I've just

9 mentioned to you?

10 A. No. I personally had a barrel of water by my house in case my

11 house caught fire, to be able to extinguish that fire.

12 Q. Mr. Likic, do you know that the BH army unit in Stupni Do had a

13 radio set that they could use to communicate with the command post in

14 Dabravine?

15 A. I don't know that. I never saw any such thing. I was just an

16 ordinary soldier. I repeat, I just keep guard and then I would come home.

17 Q. Very well, then. You have spoken, if I understood you well, about

18 some members of the BH army who during the course of the attack abandoned

19 their positions in the trenches and they started moving towards the centre

20 of the village in order to either help their families or to defend them.

21 Is that correct? Do I understand your testimony correctly?

22 A. There were no trenches where I was save for the two trenches that

23 I marked next to the village, and only those people descended. They had

24 one or two rifles. They ran through the village in order to see where

25 their families were.

Page 26443

1 At that moment the village did -- was not set ablaze. The fire

2 started from my house towards the south.

3 Q. Very well. Is it true that there was an abandoned Serb house in

4 the village as well?

5 A. Yes. There -- there were ten Serb houses in the village. They

6 had left the village sometime in May. I can't remember the exact date.

7 And they went to the Serb territory. However, two Serbs remained in the

8 village of Puinsa [phoen] and Bebanrosovic [phoen] and they remained

9 living with us. Their wives were Croats. One was from Mir and the other

10 from Vares.

11 Q. For the time being I'm only interested in the Serb houses.

12 And with regard to the house that you defined as your own and

13 marked by number 5, where were the Serb houses that you've just mentioned?

14 I believe that you still have on the ELMO the photo that you can use.

15 A. I don't have it on the screen. I have it next to me.

16 Q. Now you have it on the screen as well. Can you please tell us and

17 show us the picture's on e-court. Can you please tell us where those Serb

18 houses were?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Please do then.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please -- can the

22 usher please help the witness to show these houses on the monitor.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see a Serb house here.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Tell us, please.

Page 26444

1 A. You can't see a house here that was on the shortcut from Vares to

2 Majdan, and there was a Serb house here. And this is the second house.

3 Q. Very well.

4 A. The third house is here behind my own house. And in the centre of

5 the village there were two houses.

6 Q. This is enough.

7 A. And here above there are two more Serb houses.

8 Q. Yes. We've had enough of the Serb houses. Thank you.

9 A. And here two Serb houses.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If the Honourable Judges believe

12 that it would be of some use to have the document with the locations of

13 the Serb houses, I don't have anything against marking these locations and

14 giving a new number to this photo.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I don't see the

16 point in saying that there are three Serb houses. What are you trying to

17 show? I don't really understand.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I am trying to show this:

19 First I'm trying to show that there were Serb houses in order to lay the

20 foundation for my question.

21 Q. In an UNPROFOR document that we have seen in this courtroom, the

22 village of Stupni Do was recorded as saying -- the document number is

23 P 9121, bullet point 27(x) and (c). This gentleman said that at the

24 beginning of the conflict two -- nine BH army soldiers were billeted in an

25 abandoned Serb house in the village. Are you familiar with that? Do you

Page 26445

1 know that some army members were billeted in an abandoned Serb house in

2 the village on the eve of the attack?

3 A. I'm not familiar with that at all.

4 Q. That same person went on to say that when the HVO had arrived

5 within the site the BH army had withdrawn towards the centre of the

6 village. My question is this: Are you familiar that some soldiers did

7 withdraw towards the centre of the village regardless of where they had

8 been before?

9 A. I'm not familiar with that. I don't know any such thing.

10 Q. Very well then. Somebody also said that the shelter for the

11 civilians in the centre of the village -- or, rather, that there was a

12 shelter for civilians in the centre of the village which was defended by

13 14 member of the BH army.

14 Now, are you familiar with that fact?

15 A. All I can tell you is what I heard.

16 Q. Well, go ahead and tell us what you heard.

17 A. Can I show this? It's this house here at the outskirts of the

18 village where all the people rallied together. They came from the village

19 and met here when the shooting started here from my house towards this

20 area here, and that's where the house was defended, because there were

21 about 200 people there.

22 Q. Very well. Now would you place an X, an X on that house, please,

23 the one you said was the main shelter for the civilians and that everybody

24 gathered there. And then --

25 A. [Marks]

Page 26446

1 Q. I'd like an IC number for the photograph with these new markings,

2 please.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The map already has an IC

4 number. The witness in red has just marked the house where civilians had

5 rallied. The transcript will help us understand the indications given by

6 the witness unless we can give another IC number. Can we give another IC

7 number to that exhibit or -- no. It is not possible. So we'll keep the

8 same IC number, but we'll just remember that at a later stage the witness

9 marked the house where these people had rallied together with the Red

10 Cross.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Judge Antonetti

12 for that.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Likic, in this courtroom we heard that it was from this

14 position near the shelter that Amir Likic threw a grenade on HVO soldiers.

15 Did you hear about that?

16 A. Yes. He threw a hand grenade [as interpreted], not a grenade, to

17 save the people who were in his house.

18 Q. Now, up until that time, up until the time that this bomb was

19 thrown or hand grenade, the HVO did not attack in any way that particular

20 house in which so many civilians were located; isn't that right?

21 A. Well, I can't give you an answer because I wasn't there and

22 everything that I've told you is based on what I heard.

23 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in a document the following was also

24 recorded and it is document P 6978, point 38(c) where it was stated that

25 the defence forces of the BH army were concentrated around the main

Page 26447

1 village shelter where most of the civilians were located. And you've just

2 told us that indeed the BH army soldiers did turn up in the vicinity and

3 that a bomb was thrown.

4 Now, the question is is it true that the defence forces were

5 concentrated around that particular shelter?

6 A. What defence forces?

7 Q. Members of the BH army. That those members of the BH army who did

8 not leave the village, who did not go to Budozelj were concentrated around

9 the shelter in which the civilians were located?

10 A. That's what I heard, but let me repeat, I wasn't there myself.

11 Q. All right, fine. Now, according to the information we've had so

12 far, the HVO attack lasted roughly for about six to seven hours, and

13 during that time the HVO did not succeed in taking control of the whole

14 village. Is that right?

15 A. Let me repeat again and I apologise, but I did not see it myself.

16 I wasn't there. I was up in the forest and went with the women to the

17 other side of Bogos.

18 Q. All right. Fine. Now, Mr. Likic, as you did not hear anything

19 else. I have no further questions for you, and I'd like to thank you.

20 A. Thank you, too.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Flynn, would you

22 like to re-examine the witness?

23 MR. FLYNN: Just two or three questions. I hope they will be

24 short, Your Honours.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Flynn: