Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31327

 1                           Tuesday, 26 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  On

12     this Tuesday I wish to greet the accused, the lady and gentlemen

13     attorneys and all the people in and around the courtroom assisting us.

14     We are going to continue the examination-in-chief of the witness.  Before

15     that I would like to inform you that we can sit on Thursday morning,

16     which will allow the witness to leave in the afternoon.  Therefore,

17     Mr. Registrar, the hearing will be held on Thursday morning and not in

18     the afternoon.

19             Another point.  Yesterday, there were certain remarks by

20     Mr. Kovacic on document 1D 01410, and the best thing would be for the

21     translation service of the Tribunal to translate this document once

22     again, to give us a new translation.  So, Mr. Registrar, will you ask the

23     CLSS to prepare a new translation.

24             As I said yesterday, it is my impression that Mr. Karnavas has

25     another one hour, 15 minutes, and I see that you're all ready and the

Page 31328

 1     pulpit is ready for you to take over.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

 3     Your Honours.  I might have, I might have underestimated the time.  I

 4     might need a little extra time, of course, taken out of the overall

 5     period.  I don't think it will be much but we'll move as quickly as we

 6     can.

 7                           WITNESS:  MARTIN RAGUZ [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas:  [Continued]

10        Q.   Mr. Raguz, if I can direct your attention to document P 05051

11     [Realtime transcript read in error "P 0501"].  We have seen this document

12     in the past in this courtroom, but I just wish to point out one matter.

13     If we look to III, for instance, we see that based on this joint

14     declaration of September 14, 1993, that Dr. Franjo Tudjman has appointed

15     Dr. Mate Boban --

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  According to the record, you have

17     said document P 0501.  Would it not rather be P 05051, because that's on

18     the list.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  I have 5051.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And it says 051.  So, thank you.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:

22        Q.   This document here, if we look at III, we see that

23     Dr. Franjo Tudjman appointed Dr. Mate Granic, the vice-premier,

24     prime minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of Croatia and

25     President Alija Izetbegovic appointed Dr. Haris Silajdzic, who was the

Page 31329

 1     minister of foreign affairs, pursuant this joint declaration.  I believe

 2     that yesterday you had indicated that to some extent you were under the

 3     understanding that these two individuals were engaged in matters in BiH;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   If we go to the next document, 1D 01590.  1D 01590.  We see this

 7     is a protocol from a meeting of the working group for solving

 8     humanitarian status and so on.  This is from a meeting held in Split on

 9     September 25, and we see that Mr. Zubak and Mr. Tadic were on one side

10     with Azra Krajsek, Musan Agovic, and Tarik Jasarevic on the other side,

11     and if we look at very briefly on page 2, items 2, 3 and 4, they talk

12     about working groups.  They talk about the preparation for organised

13     voluntary return of relocated displaced persons, and they talk about

14     making progress in the negotiations for the return of refugees.  Were you

15     aware of this particular protocol at the time?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And again Mr. Zubak, you'd indicated, was the

18     president of the headquarters, as I understand it, and also he was the

19     vice-president of HVO HZ HB.

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Go to the next document, 1D 00928.  928, dated 13 October 1993.

22             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas.  I would only like to

23     ask one question for clarification.  Here in the protocol, just in the

24     second part of it on page 1 we find the following paragraph:  "Terms

25     defining the territory of the RBiH are," and then, "Territories under

Page 31330

 1     control of HVO," and "Territories under control of the army of BiH."  My

 2     question is the following -- that I understand this definition.  On the

 3     other hand, I wonder if there were no persons who came from, were

 4     expelled from the territory of the Republika Srpska, and I wonder if

 5     those persons or those territories had -- should have been taken into

 6     account in the work of the respective organs and organisations, so that

 7     is why my question is why the territory under the -- in a way, the

 8     competence of the Republika Srpska and the army of theirs were not

 9     included.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they were not part of this

11     agreement, nor were they signatories.  The war was at its worst at the

12     time.

13             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Yes, of course I agree with your explanation

14     that it was not under the control of either of HVO, nor of the BiH army.

15     My only question related to the fact that there might have been refugees

16     or displaced persons coming from that respective territory, but anyway,

17     thank you.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.

19        Q.   If we go on to the next document, which is 1D 00928.  We see that

20     this is a report that is directed to Dr. Jadranko Prlic.  It's from the

21     Office of Refugees and Displaced Persons, dated 13 October 1993, and of

22     course if we look at the second paragraph it talks about -- it gives

23     numbers.  4.159 displaced persons in total.

24             If we go into the third paragraph we see that it says:  "Namely

25     due to Muslim aggression, a large number of Croats were displaced

Page 31331

 1     primarily from Travnik, Novi Travnik, Konjic, and Bugojno, and the result

 2     of that is that municipalities in these territories organise the

 3     reception of a large number of displaced persons."  And then we see other

 4     statistics as well.  And if we go on to the second page, the second

 5     paragraph in that page reads:  "A convoy for Vares is being organised

 6     which would evacuate 4.000 displaced persons from Kakanj and Zenica," and

 7     so on.

 8             And my question is, Mr. Raguz, were you aware of this report, and

 9     if you were, can you please tell us how these numbers, these statistics,

10     came about?  Very briefly.

11        A.   Yes, I am familiar with it, but the second paragraph you quoted

12     from, when the reference is to 4.000 displaced persons, and they are just

13     those accommodated in collective centres.  There were at the time more

14     than a hundred thousand refugees in the territory under the control of

15     the HVO.  Therefore, these indicators were obtained on the basis of

16     reports and requests by people from Vares, Kakanj, and people who

17     represented them.  And this situation is something we were familiar with

18     because this exodus of 5.000 Croats from Vares were on the move already

19     for some time.  So it was common knowledge at the time.

20        Q.   And I take it if it was common knowledge to you, it would have

21     been common knowledge to UNHCR and others in the international community.

22             MR. STRINGER:  I object to the leading question, Mr. President.

23     He's asking the witness to make an assumption about what someone else

24     knew.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, it's not leading.  It calls for speculation

Page 31332

 1     maybe if we're going to be technical about it.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Well, then it's objectionable on both grounds,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.  I'll rephrase the question.

 5        Q.   Do you know whether the international community would have been

 6     aware of -- that these people were on the move and, if so, how?

 7        A.   From the reports of their offices that they had in the area one

 8     can see that they were aware of it.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now -- and if we go on to the next document just

10     for -- it's 1D 02373.  It's essentially the same document, is it not,

11     only it's addressed to Mr. Zubak?  Okay.

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   We move on to the next document, 1D 02183, and we see that this

14     is -- this does not have a -- a date.  We see your name at the bottom and

15     it's addressed to Dr. Jadranko Prlic, but perhaps you might be able to

16     assist us.  You start by saying:  "I wish to advise you that since the

17     joint meeting was held in Medjugorje on 17 October, when at your

18     initiative (at the meeting of the representatives of UNHCR, UNPROFOR,

19     IRC, and EC) the forming of a ... commission for humanitarian aid was

20     initiated ..." and then you end by saying:  "Six sessions of the

21     commissions have been held at regular intervals every Tuesday at 1100

22     hours," and then you go on to talk about that the joint commission

23     establish a method of operation.

24             Could you briefly comment on this?  What is this all about?

25        A.   I was the coordinator of the joint commission, and I was

Page 31333

 1     informing Dr. Jadranko Prlic in this way about the method of work of the

 2     joint commission which was set up, among others, by his own initiative

 3     pursuant to the Makarska protocol and in the presence of the

 4     representatives of the leading international humanitarian organisations,

 5     the UNHCR, the International Committee of the Red Cross, UNPROFOR, and

 6     the European Community.

 7             As much as it was possible at the time, the flow of humanitarian

 8     aid was improved, and you can see that over 120 convoys passed through

 9     the area under the control of the HVO unhindered, and this was one of the

10     most effective instruments about which there are written and oral

11     testimony of representatives of all these international organisations.

12     And if I may add, Your Honours, just two more sentences why it is

13     important to note this.  Because this area which the HVO has successfully

14     defended was an area through which most of the people had been saved and

15     through which most of the humanitarian aid was delivered.  And we must

16     bear in mind that this was a legitimate defensive structure formed when

17     the socialist system was dissolved and the inability of those

18     institutions to protect the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19             Each convoy was noted regularly, its destination, its location,

20     the amount of humanitarian aid it was carrying, and there were regular

21     records kept of all this.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Raguz, and we'll see some of that in due course.

23     If we go on to the next document, 1D 02300, we see that you are

24     addressing Dr. Jadranko Prlic.  And if we look at the second page, you

25     talk about -- this is dated 25 November 1993.  You say that you are

Page 31334

 1     enclosing an official assessment made by the chief of the UNHCR office in

 2     Medjugorje, Jerry Hume, about the work of the joint commission.

 3             Unfortunately, we don't have -- we don't have the official

 4     assessment, so could you -- if you recall, could you please comment on

 5     what that official assessment contained?

 6        A.   I remember it and it must exist in the documents.  It is an

 7     assessment of the official representative of the UNHCR for the area.  He

 8     gave a positive assessment, a favourable assessment, and he expressed

 9     gratitude and readiness to continue this cooperation, and indeed we

10     established almost daily communication regarding these issues as of then.

11        Q.   Thank you.  The next document is 1D 02179.  1D 02179.  I seem to

12     be hearing some whispering.

13             And we can see that this is from the minutes of 4 November 1993,

14     and on the agenda at the very top, discussion on the current situation in

15     Vares.  And of course we note under A that there is a problem with

16     evacuation, reception and accommodation of 10.000, 10.000 refugees has to

17     be evenly distributed among all subjects including the municipal HVOs,

18     Croatian Defence Councils.  And of course we don't need to go through the

19     entire document, but it would -- is it safe to assume that given that you

20     participated that in this -- in this particular discussion that you would

21     have been aware of the situation in Vares?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Now again I ask that question because it has been repeatedly

Page 31335

 1     argued by the Prosecution and to some extent by some of those in the

 2     international community that the HVO HZ HB, along with others, were

 3     engaged in a joint criminal enterprise in part to reverse ethnic cleanse

 4     Croat communities in Central Bosnia in order to repopulate parts of

 5     Herzegovina to make them more homogenous Croats.  So I want to put the

 6     question fairly and squarely once again.

 7             Were you and others such as Mr. Zubak, Dr. Prlic and others, were

 8     you involved in reverse ethnic cleansing?  Was this -- was this going on?

 9        A.   I said yesterday and I repeat, that was absolutely not the case,

10     and here before this Honourable Court I reject any such interpretation of

11     the assistance given to these people.

12             I have to say looking at the documents and preparing for today's

13     hearing I saw some reports not only from the UNHCR but also the

14     European Monitors who monitored the situation on the ground, and at this

15     period of time we had a joint meeting at which I was asked why a thousand

16     people who were accommodated in Kiseljak had not been moved towards

17     Herzegovina.  And then they said when I gave my interpretation saying

18     that we wanted these people to stay as long as possible, and they saw

19     this as political reasons, our wish for them to stay there.  And they

20     confirmed that the humanitarian conditions did not exist for them to

21     stay.  And now when we were acting along humanitarian lines and assisting

22     those people in the way that they were suggesting, then they -- some

23     people interpret this as reverse ethnic cleansing, or a situation when

24     people go to the Republic of Croatia.  And they all went, Bosniaks,

25     Croats, Serbs.  Then we're accused of wishing to Croatise Istria, for

Page 31336

 1     instance, together with the Republic of Croatia.  Then when we want to

 2     bring them back, they say that we want to make Herzegovina more

 3     homogenous.

 4             Actually, we were dealing with human suffering and the need to

 5     assist them, and that was the sole role of this office, and it was only

 6     tasks of that kind that I accepted.

 7        Q.   All right.  Thank you, Mr. Raguz.  Now, just to pick up on that

 8     to make sure we all understand, the example that you give about Istria,

 9     that's where Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina, displaced refugees, were

10     put in Pineta; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, Pineta.

12        Q.   If you go to P 07005 just very quickly.  We can see even though I

13     believe that this hasn't been translated, but can you verify for us that

14     this tells us that you have been formally appointed as the head of

15     office, correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated] the date is for those of us who can't

18     read Croatian?

19        A.   I was appointed as head of the Office for Refugees and Displaced

20     Persons of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna in Mostar on the 1st of

21     December, 1993.

22        Q.   And if we look on the right-hand side of the -- of this page, we

23     see Darinko Tadic's name.  Could you please tell us what is he being

24     appointed to?

25        A.   According to this decision, he was appointed representative of

Page 31337

 1     the office in the Republic of Croatia.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We look at the next document 1D 01432.  1D 01432.  We see

 3     a letter from Darinko Tadic, and of course you're copied, you're one of

 4     the recipients as well as Dr. Jadranko Prlic and the subject is request

 5     to register a representative office of the Office for Expelled Persons

 6     and Refugees of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and it does make

 7     reference that on 1 December 1993 the government adopted a decision to

 8     appoint him as a representative to such an office in the Republic of

 9     Croatia.

10             My question is:  Why was it necessary to have a representative of

11     your office in Croatia when, in fact, Bosnia and Herzegovina had an

12     embassy in Zagreb, and presumably that embassy was there for everyone

13     from Bosnia and Herzegovina whether they were Serb, Croat, Muslim, or

14     other.

15        A.   The reason for this appointment was the large number of refugees

16     in the Republic of Croatia and also the fact that we discussed yesterday

17     when talking of the documents that the office for refugees attached to

18     the embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina, they frequently had -- were unable

19     to cover the entire refugee population so that a -- a large number of

20     people, refugees, Croats, particularly those in Pineta for whom Croatia

21     renounced this kind of accommodation needed assistance.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  1D 02170.  That's the next document,

23     dated 6 January 1994.  This is from Spomenka Cek, but your name is

24     mentioned, and we see that it's -- that it's addressed to Dr. Prlic and

25     it makes reference -- it should be Granic as opposed to Gravanec, Granic

Page 31338

 1     and Silajdzic.  And we see that in the third paragraph it talks about a

 2     joint commission of humanitarian issues will meet on 7 January 1994 in

 3     Zagreb attended by Lang, Cek, Raguz, Turkovic, Hurtic, and Maric.  Do you

 4     know whether this meeting took place and if so what was the purpose of

 5     this joint commission meeting?

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  There is no English

 8     translation and accordingly no transcript of this answer.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  My Croatian is getting better.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The microphone was

11     not switched on.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:

13        Q.   Could you -- could you --

14        A.   Do I need to repeat?

15        Q.   Yes, please.

16        A.   I was present at this meeting, and the meeting was held of the

17     commission for humanitarian affairs.  The attendees were those indicated,

18     and this is the implementation of the agreement between Tudjman and

19     Izetbegovic that we saw today and of the meeting held between Granic and

20     Silajdzic two days previously in Vienna.  And as a result of their

21     agreement, these joint commissions were formed, and I was a member of

22     this commission for humanitarian affairs.  And there were also

23     representatives of the embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

24     Republic of Croatia, Mr. Turkovic, Hurtic, and Mr. Maric.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 02182.  This is

Page 31339

 1     a -- this is dated 31 January 1994.  It's addressed to

 2     Mr. Valentin Coric, who is now the minister of interior.  It's from you

 3     and it makes reference to the Wagful-Wakifin Fund Mobile Hospital.  Could

 4     you please, in one sentence or two, tell us what is this all about?

 5        A.   It concerned a hospital that was transferred or transported in 38

 6     or 40 containers.  It was the largest transport of that kind.  And as you

 7     can see, the destination was the eastern part of Mostar.

 8             I signed this request or this authorisation allowing it to go

 9     there unhindered.

10        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, I'm going to look at three documents

11     in succession because they almost -- they're a packet.  Those are the

12     next three documents in your bundle.  It's 1D 02024, and then we'll be

13     looking at 1D 02025  and 1D 01855.  If we could start with the first

14     document, we see that this is a protocol dated 17 March 1994.  Do you see

15     that, sir?  In 1D 02024?

16        A.   I can.

17        Q.   And if we look at the third document that I made reference to,

18     which is -- the document -- I'm sorry.  The next document which is

19     1D 02025.  This is actually the third document.  We see it's the same

20     protocol, only if we look at the back, the very last page, we see that

21     there are some signatures with some dates, and we see yours,

22     9 April 1994; correct?

23        A.   My name hasn't been signed but it's as if it had been.  That's

24     correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  And you've looked at these two documents, and essentially

Page 31340

 1     these two protocols are the same, are they not?  One is a draft, the

 2     other one being the one that was actually signed?

 3        A.   Yes, they're basically identical.

 4        Q.   Okay.  If we look now to a document -- to document 1D 01855,

 5     which is in between the two periods.  This is dated 24 March 1994.  This

 6     is addressed to sector for security, brigadier Marijan Biskic, and here

 7     it says:  "Enclosed please find the protocol on the passage of

 8     humanitarian convoys for your information pursuant to the conclusion of

 9     the commission for coordinating relations with UNPROFOR, the EC and the

10     international organisations of 23 March 1994, it is necessary to obtain

11     the opinion of the Ministry of Defence and the chief of the Main Staff of

12     the HVO ... so that the protocol could be finalised and immediately

13     implemented."

14             And my question is:  Why would it have been necessary for the

15     Ministry of Defence and the chief of the Main Staff to get involved in

16     this particular protocol?

17        A.   If you follow the way the procedure is laid out, well, each new

18     procedure was more and more precise and increasingly broad because that

19     was necessary.  As you have said yourself, as you can see, this was

20     forwarded to them since the war was still raging, and there were certain

21     obligations that military commanders had on the basis of the

22     Geneva Conventions or the Geneva agreement, rather, and this had to do

23     with the fact that they should ensure that humanitarian aid could pass

24     through unhindered.

25        Q.   All right.  And then later on we'll see some other documents

Page 31341

 1     concerning the control of what's in the humanitarian -- each humanitarian

 2     convoys, but if I could ask, if you could comment, did there come a time

 3     when there appeared to be a problem with some of the contents in these

 4     convoys?  In other words, contents that were supposedly, you know, for

 5     humanitarian purposes when in fact they might have been used or capable

 6     of being used for other purposes?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That was a time during which certain

 8     reports appeared stating that so-called humanitarian convoys had been

 9     abused.  So there were twofold possibilities.  Either there was an

10     attempt to use so-called humanitarian convoys to transport weapons, or

11     there was intent to transport commercial wares since they were very much

12     needed at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  If we go on to the next document,

14     1D 01954.  We're moving in time, and this is 12 April 1994.  This is a

15     protocol from a meeting that was held in Mostar.  You've attended it, and

16     this is excerpts, I guess, that were signed by Kreso and Tomic, and of

17     course if we look at the very last paragraph in this -- on the first page

18     it talks about humanitarian organisations are subject to the customs

19     procedure for all types of goods and that such goods are entirely at the

20     free disposal of humanitarian organisations.

21             In any event, without going into detail, what was this meeting

22     about, if you could tell us, and what was happening at or around this

23     particular time?

24        A.   This was a meeting of expert groups led by Dr. Sead Kreso on

25     behalf of the government and under the control of the ABiH.  That was the

Page 31342

 1     government of the republic.  And also under Neven Tomic, Mr. Neven Tomic

 2     on behalf of Herceg-Bosna.

 3             So here you can see that there was cooperation when it came to

 4     implementing previously signed agreements, and practical steps were taken

 5     in order to solve humanitarian and other issues.  Bodies of the HVO and

 6     of the HZ HB were always prepared to reach such agreements.

 7        Q.   All right.  And it talks about -- on the very first paragraph

 8     under number 1, it says:  " accordance with the adopted federal

 9     constitution."  Is this pre- or post-Washington Agreement that brought

10     the birth of the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   I think that is later on.  I can't exactly see the date.  Yes,

12     later.

13        Q.   And if we look at the next document, 1D 01858, which is connected

14     to the one that we just covered, here we see your name, head of office at

15     the bottom.  It makes reference to the protocol from the meeting held on

16     12 April 1994, and we see that Smajkic is mentioned, and you're mentioned

17     as well.  And then we see that there are following conclusions that were

18     adopted where various commissions -- where there's a commission -- a

19     joint commission is established harmonising legal regulations, commence

20     work on the programme, and so on and so forth.

21             And could you tell us a little bit about this?  Was this

22     consistent with parts of the obligations for implementing the

23     Washington Agreement?

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, would you be so kind as to repeat

25     the number of the document because it's not been recorded.

Page 31343

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well, 1D 01858.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  1858.  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  1858.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This was an extremely

 5     important meeting.  Its purpose was to implement the

 6     Washington Agreement, and as you can see, I and the minister

 7     Mr. Arif Smajkic agreed on the establishment of a joint commission that

 8     would continually work on the implementation on this sublaw.  It says the

 9     fundamental law has been respected, has been laid out on both sides, and

10     it has to be brought into line with the competence of the federation.

11     This is from the constitution of the federation.  One should draft a

12     programme, prepare a programme for return.  We immediately started

13     working in cooperation with the Bosnian side.  We had to have a programme

14     for return and coordinate all humanitarian tasks.  This was at the

15     beginning of April 1994.

16        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And I take it that cooperation continued

17     on up until the Dayton Accords?

18        A.   Yes, and it continued when the joint federal ministry for such

19     issues was created.  I was elected as the deputy of the minister in that

20     federal ministry that was before Dayton.

21        Q.   And where were you stationed?  Where was your office then?

22        A.   As was the case for the 18 years from Mostar to Sarajevo, we went

23     to Sarajevo, and Dr. Jadranko Prlic and others who were elected to the

24     federal government, we passed through Mount Igman.  Peace hadn't been

25     established.  We went beneath the airport in Sarajevo.  I think we passed

Page 31344

 1     through at least on 40 occasions under such conditions and on each

 2     occasion it was at risk to life and limb, but we were trying to establish

 3     a federation in a joint manner.  In good faith.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm sorry.  Only one clarification for

 6     Mr. Raguz.  The -- your answer in its first sentence you said -- and I

 7     believe that it was probably a translation problem, "As was the case for

 8     the 18 years from Mostar to Sarajevo, we went to Sarajevo," et cetera, et

 9     cetera.  So I believe that something is wrong with the translation there.

10     I wonder if you may repeat it again and then the translation will come.

11     That is the first sentence of your answer which in English text, "As was

12     the case for the 18 years from Mostar ..."  It doesn't make sense to me

13     at least.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept your suggestion that I

15     should be more precise.  So up until the ministry was established we

16     travelled to Sarajevo and back, until the entire ministry had in fact

17     been established.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:

22        Q.   The very last document for this chapter is 1D 02733.  And this

23     is -- now again we're moving ahead in time.  This is in Vjesnik, 13 May

24     1995 and you're quoted -- you're quoted as having said, among other

25     things, that more than 15 per cent of Croats have been expelled and you

Page 31345

 1     talk about -- that you warn that the census shows that 33 per cent of the

 2     displaced persons did not wish to return to their homes even if necessary

 3     conditions are created.  First of all, have you had a chance to look at

 4     this -- to look at this article, and can you give us an indication

 5     whether you -- you can confirm what's in it?  Maybe some explanations as

 6     well.

 7        A.   Yes, I can confirm this.  It was a press conference at which I

 8     presented the results of the census of those who had been expelled,

 9     displaced, and we carried out this census jointly within the new

10     structure of the federal ministry.  These are facts.  It's common

11     knowledge in terms of the percentages of expelled and displaced Croats,

12     and this is a situation that we have to confront to this very day and

13     that we have to fight.

14             The statement that 33 per cent of those expelled don't want to

15     return to their homes can be interpreted in the following way:  So that

16     means that 67 per cent want to return.  That's over two-thirds of that

17     figure.  So after the war when people were still very traumatised and

18     given that one knows that in other similar situations at least 40 per

19     cent don't return, well, we can say that these are very precise figures,

20     but we managed to perform the census.  We wanted to have precise

21     information concerning the return of people and their desire to return

22     and we worked on the basis of this census.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now I'm going to switch to another topic

24     very quickly.  This deals with municipalities.  In light of your

25     testimony yesterday and we just wish to give somewhat of a sampling to

Page 31346

 1     the Trial Chamber which would further support your testimony, if we look

 2     at the first four documents, 1D 02541, 1D 02534, 1D 02532, and 1D 02531,

 3     if we could just look at those.  You have them in your bundle.  They're

 4     dated respectively November 25, 1992; 1 February 1993; 1 June 1993; and

 5     29 June 1993.  And they deal with Posusje which is that municipality

 6     which I understand you even gave us -- you used as an example yesterday;

 7     is that correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And have you reviewed these -- these documents, and did they more

10     or less comport with your understanding of what that particular

11     municipality was doing at the time?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next set of documents, the three

14     documents 1D 00282, 1D 00300, 1D 0268, and we see that these deal with

15     the municipality of Livno.  Again, respectively it's 29 July --

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, I think that I'm in agreement with

17     some of my colleagues at least that this is not clear.  What are you

18     talking about?  What -- what -- why Posusje?  I don't see Posusje, for

19     instance, in -- mentioned in -- in document 1D 02141.  Oh, that's not

20     even one.  You go so fast and these documents are in an order which makes

21     it necessary for Judges to go constantly back and forth in this enormous

22     bundle, and we have to look for the documents twice because first we have

23     to look for the number and then we have to look for the English version,

24     which is somewhere unmarked.  I really would urge you to do the extra

25     effort to give us the documents in the same order as the witness gets

Page 31347

 1     them so that we can follow, because we simply get lost and that is not

 2     your interest.  You do not want that, and we do not want it.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  We're trying our very best.  I'll slow down, but I

 4     think this is a very good example, Judge Trechsel, of how frustrating it

 5     must be on my end, because I'm -- I'm labouring under some extreme

 6     difficulties with time pressures.  I'm not blaming anyone, but this is

 7     just --

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Even more preparations.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  I don't wish to belabour the point, Your Honours,

10     however, the electronic system was introduced to be more efficient.  In

11     this courtroom we use both.  I think it's very useful to use both, and we

12     don't have added resources, and I have lawyers with masters degrees

13     putting these things together.  It's very difficult to find staff to do

14     these things.  We are working day and night.  I -- I wish that I could

15     invite the Trial Chamber to work with us for a week, just for a week to

16     see how it is.  I mean, I understand your frustration.  We will try to do

17     better next time.  I will go slower.  I apologise, but with that in mind

18     I'll lead up some extra time just so we can do this.  I thought this was

19     a creative way of handling things in a more efficient manner; obviously,

20     I erred.  I'll take the blame.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I wish you to be aware of and to agree --

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  I did.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- that this is not our personal being offended

24     because we have difficult work.  It's in our joint common interest, I'm

25     sure.

Page 31348

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  I agree but my invitation still stands.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.

 4        Q.   If we -- we can go back to those documents and we will do one by

 5     one.  1D 02541.  This is 25 November 1992, and we can see this is -- this

 6     deals with consumption of oil for heating school occupied by pupils and a

 7     wing of the school and the school gym occupied by refugees.

 8             Now, you indicated that Posusje was a rather small municipality,

 9     I believe you said 16.000, that was accommodating rather early on large

10     numbers of displaced persons and refugees; is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Now if you look at the second document which is dated 1 February

13     1993, and that's 1D 02534, we see that it indicates on paragraph number

14     2:  "Due to the factual situation we ask you to allocate 40.000 litres of

15     oil so as to ease the problem of heating the rooms where the displaced

16     persons and refugees are being accommodated."  And this is being

17     addressed to the Office for Displaced Persons, to Darinko Tadic; correct?

18        A.   That's correct.  And here you have indicators for the

19     municipality of Posusje signed by the deputy president of the HVO for the

20     municipality of Posusje.

21        Q.   If you look at the next document, 1D 02532, here we see again

22     municipality of Posusje at the very top.  It's a social enterprise

23     catering in tourism dated 1 June 1993, and it talks about the reception,

24     accommodation and welfare of refugees and displaced persons since

25     9 April 1992.  And of course, it has a breakdown of dinner, laundry,

Page 31349

 1     theft of towels and sheets, breakage or theft, and of course, the --

 2     they're asking -- they're asking for this to be covered; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   All right.  And then if we look at the very last document,

 5     1D 02531, we see again council of Posusje municipality adopted at this

 6     particular session on 29 June 1993 part of the miner's hall to

 7     accommodate displaced persons.  And this was an example based -- you gave

 8     us the example of Posusje, and would it be fair to say that this sort of

 9     documentation comports with what you were trying to tell us yesterday?

10     Correct?  You need --

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And would it be fair to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that

13     just as Posusje municipality was carrying out these activities, other

14     municipalities, as you've testified, were doing the same thing and

15     perhaps even generating the same sorts of documents reflecting their

16     contribution to the issue of refugees and displaced persons?

17        A.   That's correct.  There were such contributions and there were at

18     the same time requests for aid.

19        Q.   Now, if we go on to the next set of documents I'm going to be

20     switching on to Livno, Livno municipality.  Another example.  First

21     document is 1D 00282, dated 29 July 1993.  And here we see there is a

22     decision to establish a Municipal Staff for the organisation and

23     coordination of shelter and care for displaced persons and refugees in

24     the territory of the municipality.  And were you aware at the time, given

25     your position, that Livno was indeed assisting in their -- in these

Page 31350

 1     efforts through this particular Municipal Staff?

 2        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

 3        Q.   Okay.  You see on the next document, 1D 00300, the very next day,

 4     30 July 1992, here there is a decision of founding a Municipal Staff for

 5     the organisation and coordination of work providing care and welfare to

 6     expelled persons and refugees on the territories of the municipalities.

 7     Again, this would confirm what you indicated to us earlier, that the

 8     municipalities were in charge of carrying out these activities; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Now if we go on to the very last document 1D 00268, which is

11     dated 10 October 1994, here we see there's a decision that's being taken

12     on the cancellation of displaced person status for the citizens of Livno

13     municipality, and it gives the reasons.  And again this confirms what you

14     told us yesterday, that it was up to the municipalities to make those

15     sorts of decisions, not just in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

16     but also this was based on the legislation carrying out for the

17     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  This is correct, but according to the opinion of the

19     municipality and of others, they no longer satisfied the conditions -- or

20     certain individuals no longer satisfied the conditions necessary to have

21     the status of displaced person.

22        Q.   Right.  Now --

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, we are of course all aware that

24     this is outside the time-frame covered by the indictment.  Perhaps it

25     will be helpful if you let -- or if you made it understandable why it is

Page 31351

 1     still relevant evidence in your opinion.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.  Yeah.  In my opinion it's relevant evidence

 3     for a couple of reasons.  First and foremost there is a continuation.

 4     We're not just dealing 1991 to 1994 in the abstract.  As you may recall,

 5     the Prosecution began its case in the middle of -- I guess in the

 6     Middle Ages talking about who was living where in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 7     they went all the way on to 1997 with I believe it was expert Miller,

 8     someone I contest not being an expert but, nonetheless, was indicating

 9     that this project, the joint criminal enterprise, continued all the way

10     on to 1997, 1998, because the Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina, primarily

11     those within the Croatian Community and within the Croatian republic of

12     Herceg-Bosna were against the Dayton Peace Accord and against the

13     constitution as it was framed by Dayton.  And we're here -- so we're

14     trying to show a continuity of the events.

15             We've indicated that municipalities played a certain role.  Now

16     we're showing it.  And it's a role that is continuous.  This whole issue

17     concerning displaced persons and refugees is very, very complex, and

18     we're trying to show through some sampling of how the municipalities were

19     dealing with this in conjunction with cooperating with the

20     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, HVO HZ HB, because we can see that

21     there is a coordinating effort but there is not a subordinating --

22     there's no subordination.

23             We also heard extensively from the internationals and from other

24     witness.  The Prosecution's theory is there was this reverse ethnic

25     cleansing and so we're trying to give ample evidence to the Trial Chamber

Page 31352

 1     to see the matters in the proper context.  It's very difficult.  You

 2     can't just cut it off at one day.  And so that's what the whole purpose

 3     of this.

 4             We're trying to be as streamline as we possibly can, and so

 5     that's -- I don't know if I'm answering your question.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.  You have answered, and

 7     I think in a helpful way.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.  Very well.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have an additional

10     question on the basis of this document regarding Livno.  In paragraph 1,

11     there is reference to the citizens of Livno, and it is stated at the end

12     of the paragraph the right to temporary occupation of a flat and

13     financial assistance.

14             Reading this text I asked myself the following question, and I'd

15     like you to clarify it for me:  It would appear on the basis of this

16     document that a refugee or displaced person may occupy an apartment and

17     may have financial assistance from the municipality, whichever it may be.

18     In that context, were there cases of people, displaced or refugees,

19     namely in Central Bosnia, who left their village or town, who went to

20     another town or village and without the municipal authority having the

21     time to do anything they occupy an apartment on their own, which may be

22     free or not, saying, "I'm entitled to an apartment because I am a

23     displaced person or a refugee"?  Did you have any experience with this

24     type of situation when populations or individuals in large numbers, I'm

25     thinking of Vares, for instance, there were a hundred thousand people

Page 31353

 1     leaving Vares and going somewhere else, and who on their own occupy

 2     apartments while the municipal authority didn't have time to do anything?

 3     Did you come across such situations?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, there

 5     were such situations, but they were in evidence throughout Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina, and we had occasion to see how individual municipalities

 7     reacted to such instances.  Yesterday, for instance, we saw a document

 8     adopted by the Mostar Municipal Council on the removal of people who had

 9     illegally moved into an apartment, because unless they had a decision

10     authorising him to move in temporarily, he was staying there illegally,

11     and the municipal authorities had the duty to deal with such situations.

12             Have I managed to answer your question?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.

15        Q.   We're going to go on to another topic.  This deals with convoys,

16     this set of documents.  Just very briefly the first document is a

17     Prosecution document.  We've seen it.  We're familiar with it.  We don't

18     need too much comment but this is P 10264.  If you can just look at it.

19     And we see that this is an agreement on the passage of humanitarian

20     convoys, and my question is:  Were you familiar with this particular

21     document?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  And that's all that we need to cover at this point.

24             Now, the next document -- and I'm going to look at two documents

25     in succession, but the first one is 1D 01360.  This is from the Office

Page 31354

 1     for Expelled Persons and Refugees.  It's dated 12 October 1993.  It's

 2     signed by Darinko Tadic, and we see that this -- the subject is approval

 3     for unhindered passage.  Could you please describe to us what is

 4     contained in this document so we have an understanding.

 5        A.   This is a document which pursuant to the Makarska Agreement and

 6     confirmed by the group for humanitarian issues establish the procedure

 7     and whereby the Office for Expelled Persons and Refugees of Herceg-Bosna

 8     was authorised to approve the passage of convoys upon the basis of

 9     requests addressed by domestic and international humanitarian

10     organisations.

11             In this request it was necessary for them to indicate the date

12     when the convoy would be leaving, its final destination where the

13     humanitarian aid was being taken, and the registration number of the

14     vehicles, the names of the drivers, and the quantities carried, as this

15     was humanitarian aid and the point was to let it pass unhindered.  And on

16     the basis of such a procedure and method of work we managed to achieve

17     excellent results, and each convoy was registered and you can find it in

18     the documents.

19        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document which is 3D 00921.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a moment, please.  My

21     colleague has a question, but I also have a question, and I don't know

22     whether the next document may resolve the question, but I give the floor

23     to my colleague.  Yes.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I see that the document

25     that we have in front of us, D 01360, comes from the Office for Displaced

Page 31355

 1     Persons and Refugees authorising unhindered passage of convoys.  The

 2     question I have for you is whether this was your office that authorised

 3     the passage of all humanitarian convoys and whether on the basis of this

 4     authorisation your services, your staff members, first examined and

 5     inspected all the convoys and to what extent the police or the army

 6     intervened with respect to the authorisation of convoys and the security

 7     of those convoys.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The office had the authority to

 9     grant authorisation only to humanitarian convoys pursuant to the

10     agreements and protocols that we have already seen and analysed.  That is

11     the role specified with the approval and agreement of international

12     humanitarian organisations.  And this document is an example of the way

13     in which the office granted such authorisation.  With this authorisation

14     a humanitarian organisation that is granted permission, and mostly these

15     left from logistic centres at Ploce in Croatia or Split, and there were

16     authorised inspectors envisaged by the protocol who were able to examine

17     the contents.  And if the contents were in order, the convoys could set

18     off.  And I can tell you that this procedure was respected to the

19     greatest possible degree.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.  My

21     last question on this subject.  I think that you realised and we have

22     even seen in some documents that the parties suspected that there were

23     arms being transported within those humanitarian convoys.  Do you have

24     any knowledge of the transportation of non-authorised goods by these

25     convoys on the part of either party?

Page 31356

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is information and concrete

 2     cases when individual smaller, mostly smaller humanitarian organisations

 3     which were also active in those areas under those conditions at the time

 4     did transport or tried to transport, under the guise of humanitarian aid,

 5     other goods, sometimes weapons even.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A brief question, Witness.  I

 8     come back to the document that we saw a moment ago, 1D 1360.  This

 9     document dated the 12th of October refers to a convoy of the 15th of

10     October, and my attention was drawn to the destiny of this convoy.  It is

11     Zenica, along the route Metkovici, Mali Prolog - I don't know where that

12     is - and destination Zenica.  Unless I'm mistaken, in 1993 Zenica was

13     under the control of the ABiH, which would mean that the authorities of

14     Herceg-Bosna are authorising humanitarian convoys with the destination

15     being an area under the control of the ABiH had.  Is that right?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so, yes.  And you will

17     see in the overall review that more than two-thirds of the aid approved

18     by this office in the form of convoys went to areas under the control of

19     the Armija.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And my last

21     question.  To your knowledge, because we have been listening to a great

22     deal about humanitarian convoys, so the Judges are well aware of this

23     problem.  I would like to know to the best of your knowledge, did you

24     have within the framework of the activities that you engaged in at the

25     time, did you have knowledge of a humanitarian convoy that you had not

Page 31357

 1     authorised?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can say with full

 3     responsibility that not a single convoy that fulfilled the conditions

 4     envisaged by the protocol did not -- was not deprived of permission while

 5     he was at the head of this office.  So every convoy that fulfilled

 6     conditions was allowed to pass.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may add a small question.  What was the

 9     importance of other convoys that were refused because some condition was

10     not met, according to your office's assessment?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every request that reached the

12     office and was submitted by a humanitarian organisation engaged in these

13     activities was given approval.  So we couldn't authorise any other

14     convoys than convoys carrying humanitarian aid.  And each humanitarian

15     aid convoy, and I wish to underline in particular that the office never

16     determined where that humanitarian organisation would be taking the

17     convoy, what its destination would be.  So we respected their programme

18     and their choice of destination.  And there are written reports about

19     this by the head of the UNHCR office - unfortunately, we don't have that

20     document here - and in this document what I'm saying is confirmed.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I had understood all that.  My question related

22     as it were to the dark side of the moon.  Were there requests that had to

23     be rightly, I'm not suggesting anything improper, but were there many,

24     how many requests that for some reason or other had to be rejected?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I shall be able to say more

Page 31358

 1     about that when we look at the next document.  So I said that there isn't

 2     a single request by registered humanitarian organisations that was

 3     rejected.  There is no concrete evidence of any such case.  By now it

 4     would have emerged.  It's another matter whether some convoys were

 5     stopped and whether they had problems en route.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:

 8        Q.   Just one point of clarification.  You'd indicated that while you

 9     were the head of the office, to your knowledge not a single convoy that

10     met the criteria of the protocol was ever denied permission.  What about

11     while you were the deputy head of office?  Can you recall of any instance

12     when a convoy met all the criteria but your predecessor denied giving

13     access or permission for the convoy?

14        A.   I cannot remember any such cases.

15        Q.   Now let's look at the next document, because this covers, I

16     believe, part of your earlier answer.  This is 3D 00921.  If you could

17     look at it very briefly and then tell us what it is.

18        A.   This is a document containing a list of all the convoys

19     authorised by the Office for Refugees and Displaced Persons listed

20     according to the date when the approval was given to the humanitarian

21     organisation bringing the humanitarian aid, the destination where the aid

22     was delivered and the quantity of aid carried.  And you can see from this

23     that in the period from the 1st of June until the 10th of December, you

24     can see how many convoys there were.  Several hundred, I think.  And that

25     a total of more than 30.000 tons of humanitarian aid was transported, of

Page 31359

 1     which, in answer to your question, Mr. President, there is a summary of

 2     how much went to Zenica, Tuzla, East Mostar, Konjic, Jablanica.  You will

 3     see 25.000 tons of humanitarian aid in total whereas to the area under

 4     the HVO, half as much aid went, that is 12.000 tons.  So there was no

 5     interference with the destination of the aid.  That was determined by the

 6     humanitarian organisation in question.  You can see which they were, the

 7     UNHCR, the International Committee of the Red Cross, A.I.C.F., and all

 8     the others who contributed to addressing the humanitarian disaster in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   All right, I have a couple of questions on this just to make sure

11     we have the record correct.  If we look at the very first page, we see

12     that the period we're talking about is 1 June to 10 December, 1993;

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   And if we look at the bottom of the page, we see two different

16     signatures.  Is one of those signatures yours?

17        A.   The one on the right.

18        Q.   All right.  And the one on the left, can you recognise it?  If

19     not, it doesn't matter.

20        A.   I think I gave this document during my testimony, and I signed

21     it.  MR, that's me.  That's for certain.

22        Q.   And you gave this to the Office of the Prosecution?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   That's when you were -- that's when you were questioned as -- in

25     this case as a suspect?

Page 31360

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we look at -- you mentioned some figures.  If we

 3     just look at the page where you will see the ERN number.  There are some

 4     numbers at the top right-hand, the one that says 03653938.  This figure

 5     here, which is 25,847.81, that's dealing with territory that's controlled

 6     by the ABiH; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   And then if we go to -- again just for the Court's convenience,

 9     if we go to the page with the -- the last page of this document, or the

10     second last, I guess it would be, 03653942.  We see a figure of 2.315,

11     and that would represent what went to the HVO-controlled territory;

12     correct?

13        A.   12.505.

14        Q.   Very well.  12.000.  My apologies.  Very well.  That's all I need

15     for this document.  Unless there are other questions, I'm going to move

16     on.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

18     witness.

19             Looking at this document which we have already examined with

20     other witnesses, so the Chamber's familiar with this document, I am

21     struck by the following conclusion one can make:  One has the impression

22     looking at the destination of all these convoys, on the one hand it's

23     Zenica and Sarajevo with other destinations as well, Tuzla and Jablanica,

24     but almost all of these convoys were actually destined to the area under

25     the control of the ABiH, which means intended for Muslims and not Croats.

Page 31361

 1     And on the basis of this conclusion, I wonder where are the convoys for

 2     the Croats?  Were there convoys for the Croats?  And then I was looking

 3     who was at the origin of these convoys.  There's the UNHCR, of course,

 4     UNICEF, and then I see certain French non-governmental organisations, how

 5     the -- like the Medecins du Monde, the handicapped and so on, and these

 6     NGOs were preparing humanitarian convoys not only for Croats but for

 7     others as well.  Now, as you were in this area of activity, out of 100

 8     convoys, how many went for the Croats and how many for the Muslims?

 9     Could you make a breakdown for us?

10        A.   Mr. President, Your Honour, we have here a record of the convoys,

11     the organisations, and the quantities that went, as we have said, to the

12     area under the control of the ABiH and the area controlled by the HVO,

13     and we can see the concrete figures.  12.505 tons is half the amount that

14     was destined for the areas under control of the Armija, which means that

15     we have precise figures for these area.  The area of Zenica also covered

16     Vitez and Novi Travnik.  These were areas inhabited by Croats.  And then

17     from that central warehouse they were distributed there.  We couldn't

18     have precise records of how much of that aid went to the Croats from

19     Zenica.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question.  To the best

21     of your knowledge, did you have any information that the Croats had less

22     humanitarian aid than others or the same amount of humanitarian aid or

23     more?  Was there discrimination among the final recipients, or is it

24     impossible to provide an answer to that question?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think both, Your Honour.  So it

Page 31362

 1     is a fact that individual areas, and these were mostly enclaves, that it

 2     was more difficult to reach with the humanitarian aid, and there are

 3     indicators that these deliveries of humanitarian aid were very rare

 4     there, and this applied to the whole territory, and it's difficult to

 5     give you concrete figures.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It is a quarter to

 7     4.00.  We should normally have a break, and according to the registrar,

 8     Mr. Karnavas, you have another 12 minutes left.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well, but, Your Honours, I'm willing to spend

10     a little bit more time on this -- with this particular witness.  It will

11     not affect his departure.  I'm told that at least three of my colleagues

12     have no questions, but in light of Judge Trechsel's suggestion, I think

13     that I'm going to need a little bit more time.  Again it's going to

14     come -- we'll manage through some other witnesses to cut, but I think the

15     topics that I have for you, just to give you a preview, are reverse

16     ethnic cleansing, statistics, something dealing with the Ljubuski centre,

17     and then a couple of miscellaneous, and some of these documents will

18     indeed cover some of the questions that were asked by the Bench,

19     including the last question, Your Honour, that you have asked Mr. Raguz.

20     So ...

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has no

22     objections to this suggestion, but as you are well aware, the other

23     members of the Defence should as a rule have two hours.  If some members

24     of the Defence have no questions, well, naturally there's no problem in

25     granting you additional time.  I'll consult the other Defence teams.

Page 31363

 1     There are three that have no questions.  Who has questions?  Ms. Nozica,

 2     do you have questions?

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's too early for me

 4     to say since the examination-in-chief hasn't been completed yet.  If the

 5     Stojic Defence has any questions it won't take long, but it's premature

 6     for me to decide now.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic or Mr. Kovacic.

 8             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Since I'm on my feet, no,

 9     Your Honours, we won't have any questions.  It's not necessary.  The

10     testimony has been very detailed.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a few brief

13     and simple questions for this witness, but if Mr. Prlic's Defence needs

14     additional time, we will give up those questions.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Tomasegovic.

16             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

17     As in the case of the Stojic Defence, we'll wait for the completion of

18     the examination-in-chief and then we'll decide.  But if we do have any

19     questions it won't take much time.  It will be very brief.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

21             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as things stand,

22     at the moment we will have no questions for this witness.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In that case, there

24     are no problems.  We'll have a 20-minute break now.

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

Page 31364

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   Mr. Raguz, if we could continue now with the next document.  It's

 5     1D 02282.  And we're going to be discussion three documents in succession

 6     concerning this issue, but with respect to this document, if you could

 7     look at it.  And we see that at the very top it's a note, subject,

 8     humanitarian organisation.  It's by Colonel Marijan Biskic, and he says:

 9     "We enclose herewith intelligence obtained by the Intelligence

10     Administration of the HVO Main Staff about the activities of the serious

11     road trip HO, the humanitarian organisation."

12             Now, if I can look at the next document.  I'm going to show you

13     three documents and then I'm going to ask you a question.  1D 02281.

14     1D 02281.  This is from Colonel-General Ante Roso, and this is dated

15     14 December 1993, where he says -- this is in reference to the reference

16     number.  It says:  "On the basis of intelligence and our experience so

17     far, some of the material declared as humanitarian has been used

18     exclusively for the needs of the military industry of the Muslim armed

19     forces."  And then he goes on to say:  "In keeping with the above, remove

20     from convoys the materials under ordinal numbers 1, 5, 6, 7, and 10 in

21     the list attached to this memo ..." and then we see a list.  And of

22     course, we flip the page.  This is a subject permission for passage of

23     humanitarian convoy, and we see your name at the bottom of it, and, of

24     course, the numbers that were mentioned by General Roso have been

25     circled.

Page 31365

 1             And finally, if we look at the last document before I ask you a

 2     question.  It's 1D 01856.  1D 01856.  This is by Marijan Biskic.  He's a

 3     brigadier at this point and it's regarding humanitarian convoys, and he

 4     indicates here:  "We have received information that a UNHCR humanitarian

 5     convoy which is going into BH army zone of responsibility will besides 34

 6     tons of humanitarian goods also contain 95.000 detonating fuses."

 7             So you were asked a question by the Bench earlier whether you had

 8     any specific information.  Could you please comment on these three

 9     documents?  What are they about?  What's going on?

10        A.   Well, in light of what I have already said that there were, in

11     fact, such cases, these documents show that this occurred at a certain

12     point in time, and they show which specific humanitarian organisations

13     were concerned.  So you have information here from intelligence services,

14     information that shows that humanitarian organisations used humanitarian

15     convoys in such a way.  They abused the humanitarian convoys.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, if we -- we can move on to -- unless there are

17     any questions from the Bench, I'll move on to the next document.

18     1D 01854.  This is a protocol from a meeting held in Posusje on

19     16 December 1993, chaired by Dr. Jadranko Prlic, and it makes reference

20     to the 17 October 1993 joint meeting held in Medjugorje.  We see Granic,

21     Dr. Granic, was there, who was the prime minister of Croatia.  And we see

22     that it was agreed, among other things, that a joint commission for

23     humanitarian issues would be formed.  And of course, if we look into the

24     second page, we actually see duties and persons in charge of implementing

25     the protocol, and of course, we see that it's the Office of Displaced

Page 31366

 1     Persons and Refugees.

 2             If we look at the third page under item number 6, it says that

 3     the Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees will call meetings of a

 4     joint commission, and then under -- under 1, we see your name as a

 5     coordinator of the joint commission.  And if you could please just tell

 6     us very briefly what is this about?

 7        A.   Well, what I can do is confirm once more that this joint

 8     commission was in operation.  It carried out its tasks adequately and at

 9     the meetings of the joint commission all participants and signatories of

10     the protocol were present every week, and representatives of local and

11     international humanitarian organisations also attended.  And as you can

12     see in the paragraphs or, rather, the articles of this protocol, there's

13     detailed information on the procedure one had to follow to ensure that

14     humanitarian aid was in fact transported and not other goods.

15             So this just shows how we continued to work in this field in a

16     serous manner, how we continued to coordinate all activities in order to

17     obtain the result that we referred to before the break.  I'm referring to

18     the results that relate to the convoys and to the amount of humanitarian

19     aid that was transported.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  If we look on to the next document,

21     1D 01873.  This is dated 20 -- this is a letter by Dr. Jadranko Prlic

22     addressed to General Cot, and it's dated 23 November 1993.  Just if we

23     focus our attention on the second paragraph.  Dr. Jadranko Prlic is

24     suggesting that Cot's organisation, he's with UNPROFOR at the time,

25     he's in fact, I believe, the head UNPROFOR, to organise an urgent meeting

Page 31367

 1     between the highest representatives of the three warring sides in BH in

 2     order to bring about peace immediately in all the areas through which the

 3     humanitarian aid convoy needs to pass especially in war zones such as

 4     Gornji Vakuf.  And he talks about his readiness to cooperate in

 5     protecting all convoys carrying humanitarian aid.

 6             Were you aware at the time of Dr. Jadranko Prlic's efforts, and

 7     could you please tell us specifically what, if anything, was happening in

 8     the area around Gornji Vakuf around this time?

 9        A.   Yes.  Here we have a specific initiative for the organisation of

10     a meeting of the highest representatives of the three warring sides.  The

11     purpose is to establish peace for transport and make it possible for

12     humanitarian aid to pass through.  The situation was very delicate, very

13     dangerous.  Dr. Prlic referred to that, but unfortunately there were no

14     serious results at that point in time.

15             The period we're dealing with is the 23rd of January, 1993.  I

16     don't think there was much of a reaction to this.

17        Q.   Now, if we go -- if we go on to the next document, 1D 02142, we

18     see this is a letter dated December 7, 1993.  It's addressed to

19     Mate Boban, and it's by Dr. Mate Granic, and it makes reference to a

20     convoy called White Passage and another convoy which is to leave for

21     Maglaj, and it has the various routes that have been suggested and, I

22     guess, approved, at least the first one, by Mr. Silajdzic.

23             Were you aware of this -- this particular convoy?

24        A.   Yes, I was aware of it.

25        Q.   If we could look now to the next document 1D 02155, here we find

Page 31368

 1     a letter dated December 23, 1993, by Dr. Jadranko Prlic addressed to a

 2     Mr. Briquemont wherein Dr. Jadranko Prlic is complaining about the tragic

 3     results of the humanitarian action of the White Passage, and he goes on

 4     to say that:  "The parading of your tanks and transport crews in front of

 5     TV cameras only while the convoy was moving across the territory of the

 6     Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna because the journalists and cameras

 7     could not stop into the territory under Muslim control misleads again the

 8     public around the world that is really not familiar with the activities

 9     performed by the UN peace forces in BiH."

10             Then he goes on, and I'll leave it up to the Judges to read the

11     rest.  Perhaps they may have some questions on this.  But could you -- do

12     you recall why Dr. Jadranko Prlic is complaining about the conduct and

13     behaviour and attitude of UNPROFOR?

14        A.   The case here is a specific one.  It was a specific convoy.  It

15     was a joint convoy, in fact, a joint humanitarian convoy of a number of

16     humanitarian organisations of both Croatian organisations and Bosniak or

17     Muslim organisations.  After a long period of time it was to deliver to

18     the -- to parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina this aid.  They had been for

19     three months without any aid.

20             The Croatian government, on the basis of the Granic-Silajdzic

21     agreement, was also in favour of this convoy, and it was UNPROFOR's task

22     to escort the convoy.  We can see that serious incidents broke out.  I

23     think that there were fatalities, too, when the convoy left the territory

24     under HVO control, and this is what is stated in the letter.

25             The UNPROFOR battalion whose task it was to escort the convoy

Page 31369

 1     wasn't appropriately engaged.  One has referred to various standards in

 2     regard to such issues, and it also mentions the fact that one is prepared

 3     for correct relationships at all levels and for cooperation with regard

 4     to future humanitarian actions.

 5        Q.   All right.  And to your understanding of the events at the time,

 6     was Dr. Jadranko Prlic correct in his assessment to Mr. Briquemont?

 7        A.   Absolutely.  I think so.

 8        Q.   Now, if we go to the next document, and this is the last one in

 9     this chapter.  Unless there's questions from the Bench on the previous

10     one, I'll move on to the next.

11             If we go to the next document, P 07669, and it's dated 26 January

12     1994.  If you go to the third page of this document, we see your name and

13     signature as head of the office, and of course, if you could please

14     describe what exactly is the document about, why you're addressing a

15     Dr. Miro Jakovljevic?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I've signed this letter.  It was forwarded

17     to the coordinator of these projects for Central Bosnia for the enclaves

18     that were most at risk.  In one of those convoys there was the White Path

19     convoy that we have discussed in the previous document.  These

20     individuals engaged in the action for Nova Bila and Bosna Srebrena broke

21     through that blockade.  They expressed their gratitude.  There was

22     support for future actions and we also say that we are in favour of

23     continuing with these joint convoys, Croatian and Bosniak convoys that

24     had as their destination that area that was most at risk.

25        Q.   And in fact if we look at the second page, the last paragraph,

Page 31370

 1     you indicate that the most urgent places are Vitez, Busovaca,

 2     Novi Travnik, Usora, Zepce, and Kiseljak; is that correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   All right.  And I take it since you authored this document, you

 5     would have been aware of the situation in those particular locations

 6     hence why you flagged them to this particular individual for urgent need

 7     of aid; is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.  This expresses our desire to continue with

 9     activities such as the White Path activities.  The places I have

10     mentioned here, Vitez, Busovaca, Novi Travnik, Usora, Zepce, Kiseljak,

11     these are the areas that were a matter of priority.  They were under HVO

12     control.  But there are also other areas that were under the control of

13     the ABiH at the time.

14        Q.   All right.  We've going to move on to another topic now.  Yes?

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  It would be interesting to know who

16     Dr. Jakovljevic actually was.  He's referred to as president, but there

17     are many presidents in the world.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  There are indeed.  There are indeed.

19        Q.   If you could tell us who this particular individual is.

20        A.   He was Dr. Miro Jakovljevic.  He didn't occupy any political

21     positions and he led a humanitarian action -- project, humanitarian

22     project that was officially called the Humanitarian Paths of Peace and

23     Love for Assistance to Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was a lecturer, a senior

24     lecturer, and it was an extremely successful and humane action.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to follow up on

Page 31371

 1     Judge Trechsel's question.  Perhaps you could also explain the following

 2     to me.  In this first paragraph of your letter, at the end of that

 3     paragraph you say:  "[In English] various parts of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina on the basis of parity."  Parity.  [Interpretation] Why

 5     parity in relation to Dr. Jakovljevic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these were activities that

 7     broke through the humanitarian blockade in force in Central Bosnia.  It

 8     was successful because it was jointly organised by Croatian and Bosniak

 9     humanitarian organisations, and this is why one refers to joint action on

10     the basis of parity.

11             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  Is there a question, Judge Trechsel?  Very well.

13        Q.   If we go on to the next topic, and this is -- deals with reverse

14     ethnic cleansing.  I've broken it into several different areas.  The

15     first one deals with Zenica and Kakanj.

16             If we could look at -- I'm going to have you look at four

17     particular documents first and then I'll ask you a question.  I'll go

18     slowly.

19             The first document is 1D 02303.  This is 15 May 1993.

20             There's no translation I'm told.

21             All right.  The next document is 1D 02168.  This is 4 October

22     1993.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Mr. Karnavas, you had announced

24     2303, and then one reads this is 15 May 1993, and then you go to the next

25     document.  The previous one, I don't think that it is very informative

Page 31372

 1     that this was 15 May 1993.  If you want to do something with the

 2     document.  If you don't, I'm not insisting.  It's not my ...

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I could get you to switch off your microphone.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Karnavas.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.  Thank you.  Let's deal with this.

 6     We'll have to spend more time on this.  I'll try to thread the needle,

 7     Your Honour.

 8        Q.   If we look at this document, it's addressed to the UNHCR, ECMM,

 9     and the Red Cross, and here it's information on the war in Zenica since

10     April 15 of the year, 1993, and have you had a chance to look at this

11     particular document?  Please tell us --

12        A.   This is a report containing information on the casualties in the

13     war clash in Zenica, and here you have a record of the casualties, the

14     individuals killed, the facilities destroyed, and this was forwarded to

15     the international organisations.  It shows what the situation was in

16     settlements with regard to individuals in certain places.  You can see

17     what actually took place in Zenica at the time.

18        Q.   All right.  And on the recipient end of the looting and the other

19     sorts of activities that are described, who are they?

20        A.   Well, here we can see on the first page that the Croatian Centre

21     was first attacked.  That's where the HQ of the Napredak was located, the

22     Catholic Charity Association, the Croatian Central Cultural Association,

23     the Political Prisoners Association, the Croatian Democratic Union, the

24     town gallery.  Then there's a list of people whose houses were torched

25     and looted.  We have information on the settlements and the names of

Page 31373

 1     people who were affected.  Most of them were, in fact, Croats.

 2        Q.   And were you aware of this activity?  Was this information coming

 3     your way?

 4        A.   Yes, this information did come our way, although at this time I

 5     had not yet been officially appointed, but this information did arrive

 6     because, as a rule, I did get involved in such issues.

 7        Q.   Now, in -- Judge Trechsel, just for the relevancy of this, we're

 8     going to go through history and we're going to see that things are

 9     developing, which is why we believe there was no reverse ethnic

10     cleansing, hence the reason for going as early as this period.

11             If we go on to the next document, 1D 02168.  This is 4 October

12     1993.  Have you had a chance to look at this?  This is addressed to

13     Dr. Prlic.  It's from the vice-president of the HVO in Kakanj.

14        A.   Yes.  I've already seen this document which was alarming, and on

15     the basis of this document action was taken to assist these people.  This

16     is a matter that we have already discussed.  This just shows how

17     difficult the situation really was, because it is stated here there were

18     7.000 inhabitants who had been away from their homes for over three and a

19     half months.  They weren't -- they were put up as refugees or other

20     expelled persons in Vares, and they had been fleeing for three and a half

21     months, in fact.  The only way to assist this -- these people, since the

22     war was intense, the only way to help them was to move them from the area

23     affected by the war after all they had been through, and this was done

24     through a joint effort.

25        Q.   All right.  And the next document very briefly, 1D 01355.  Again

Page 31374

 1     this deals with Kakanj and Zenica.  This is a report, the Office of

 2     Expelled Persons and Refugees.  Are you familiar with this particular

 3     report, sir?  It's dated 21 October 1993.

 4        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.  And it's a report on where these

 5     people, several thousand people had been put up, where accommodation had

 6     been found for them.  We can't really refer to any plans.  We got a

 7     request for assistance in October and action had already been taken.  You

 8     can't really talk about a plan that was developed.  We just tried to save

 9     what could be saved.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, 1D 01799.  This is dated 30 January 1994, and

11     this deals with an area that we haven't heard of, I believe, before,

12     Catici.  Are you aware of the situation over there, first of all.

13        A.   Yes.  We're dealing with expelled individuals here.  They'd been

14     put up in the Catici thermoelectric power plant.  It's near Kakanj.  They

15     stayed there after many people had been moved out of Kakanj, and as far

16     as I can see, it says that they didn't have any support here and that

17     they should be moved in some way and the critical situation should be

18     dealt with.

19        Q.   All right.  If we can go on to another area, and this deals with

20     Konjic.  First 1D 02202.  This is a -- a list of requests by the

21     Konjic HVO.  It's dated 19 June 1993, and if we look at the very last

22     paragraph, number 7, it even demands that Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki come and

23     conduct an investigation in accordance with the United Nations

24     Conventions on War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.  And this, of

25     course, is addressed to Dr. Jadranko Prlic and others.

Page 31375

 1             Were you aware of the situation in Konjic?

 2        A.   Yes.  We had a report yesterday as a document, a report of the

 3     head of the office who toured the area, and we see that having toured the

 4     area and gaining direct insight into the situation one could confirm that

 5     the situation in Konjic was indeed grave.

 6             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would like to make a correction in the text

 7     that when Mr. Karnavas referred to the Conventions on War Crimes and

 8     Crimes Against Humanity, I believe that he wanted to refer to the

 9     Geneva Conventions on War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.  They were

10     not United Nations conventions.  It is just for the sake of the record.

11     Thank you.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Judge Prandler.  I would totally agree

13     with you.  I was just reading the text.  The individual who wrote this

14     obviously authored it as United Nations Conventions, but I take your

15     point.

16        Q.   If we look at the next document, 1D 01907.  This again is

17     13 August 1993.  Here we have Konjic municipality and but it's dated from

18     Ljubuski, and of course, they're protesting in the strongest terms

19     concerning the non-performance of your duties in Konjic municipality.

20     This is -- this comes from the head of the public affairs office of

21     Konjic.

22             Again, can you please tell us had things improved by 13 August

23     1993?

24        A.   I think not.  The situation remained more or less the same until

25     the end of the year; that is, during September and October most of the

Page 31376

 1     Croats there Konjic had to leave Konjic and seek refuge elsewhere.

 2        Q.   All right.  If we look at 1D 01829.  This is a report on the

 3     expulsion of Croats.  It's dated 4 January 1994.  We see various figures.

 4     And this is by the head of the department Zovko, Dragica Zovko.  Can you

 5     tell us whether you're familiar with this report and the numbers and

 6     whether in your opinion, based on your experience and being in situ, the

 7     numbers accurately and fairly reflect the situation as it was at the

 8     time?

 9        A.   Yes, they do provide information how many people were taken over

10     and where they were accommodated.  This is the very beginning of 1994,

11     and we can see from what areas they are coming, Kakanj, Bugojno,

12     Gornji Vakuf, Doljani, Novi Travnik, Vares.  This is the area that was

13     surrounded and in where the humanitarian situation was extremely serious

14     and had been for many months.

15        Q.   Finally, regarding Konjic, if we look at P 07582.  P 07582, dated

16     14 January 1994, we see a letter addressed to Dr. Rebic who has come here

17     and testified extensively, and this is authored by you.  Could you please

18     tell us, having looked at this document and having authored it, what

19     exactly -- why are you communicating with Dr. Rebic?

20        A.   This is a direct request for support in taking in these refugees,

21     and you saw what the situation was like on the basis of the previous

22     document that we just reviewed.  So this is a request for support and aid

23     in providing accommodation for a certain number of refugees which we

24     could no longer take care of.

25        Q.   Now, you were asked a question about whether humanitarian aid was

Page 31377

 1     distributed fairly and evenly, and so, if we could look to the next

 2     document 1D 02299, 1D 02299.  That question came from the Bench.  We

 3     welcomed it.  If we look at this, this is dated 24 September 1993.  The

 4     letter is authored by Dr. Jadranko Prlic addressed to UNHCR.  And if we

 5     look at the very first paragraph, Dr. Jadranko Prlic is noting that:

 6     "...we have demonstrated our readiness to facilitate unimpeded transit

 7     and distribution of aid, but at the same time we advise you of the need

 8     to distribute aid equally to all who need it, irrespective of which

 9     peoples, ethnic or religious group they belong to."

10             And then in the second paragraph under item 1 he says:  "However,

11     the information that we have been receiving (attached) shows that

12     recently aid in fuel, clothes, et cetera, has been going to the areas,

13     towns and places under the control of Muslim authorities, and not even

14     one convoy was sent to Busovaca, Novi Travnik or Vitez in the last 25

15     days."

16             And again under paragraph number 2 -- or item number 2, he says:

17     "We were informed today that Muslim authorities in Konjic have been

18     expelling the local Croats so that there are about 800 civilian refugees

19     (women, children, the elderly) who are seeking urgent evacuation to the

20     free regions of Herzegovina."

21             Now, were you familiar with the situation at the time enough to

22     comment on whether Dr. Jadranko Prlic is accurate in reflecting the

23     situation to UNHCR, Mr. Jerry Hume concerning the disproportionate

24     distribution of humanitarian aid?

25        A.   At this time records were kept on the flow of humanitarian aid

Page 31378

 1     that we have referred to, and this was the most difficult period for

 2     Busovaca, Novi Travnik, and Vitez, that is, the Croatian enclaves in

 3     Central Bosnia, and I can just confirm that this was a timely reaction

 4     addressed to the right people.

 5        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01523.  This is

 6     a letter, appeal for rescue.  It's by doctors from Bugojno.  It's signed

 7     by Dr. Mihajlovic Zvonko.  It's 20th of August, 1993.  Can you please

 8     tell us what the situation was in Bugojno and whether, having looked at

 9     this document, this accurately and fairly reflects the situation as it

10     was at the time.

11        A.   The situation was extremely grave in Bugojno because a certain

12     number of people, I think it was several thousand, more than 10.000, had

13     to leave Bugojno, and a certain number were detained there.  These

14     people, doctors, physicians who are drawing the attention to

15     international humanitarian organisations and institutions to the alarming

16     situation by addressing an appeal for salvation, and there were such

17     appeals not only from Bugojno.  And this also is an illustration of the

18     seriousness of the situation and how those people really needed

19     assistance.  And on the basis these activities taken by

20     Dr. Jadranko Prlic, the office for refugees and other institutions in

21     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, one can see that everything was done

22     that they could do to assist those people.

23        Q.   If you we go to the next document, 1D 01354.  This deals with

24     Vares.  It's dated 3 November 1993.  It's from the Office of Displaced

25     Persons and Refugees.  It's signed by Darinko Tadic, and here we see that

Page 31379

 1     there is a realistic -- it is realistic to anticipate the arrival of a

 2     large new wave of expelled Croats from the newly occupied enclave of

 3     Vares to the free and safe area of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

 4     And he's appealing for assistance.

 5             Having been there and knowing the situation, can you please tell

 6     us what was happening in Vares and whether these folks, these expelled

 7     Croats were being expelled by the Croats in order to ethnically cleanse

 8     themselves of that area?

 9        A.   We're talking about almost 15.000 civilians, Croats, who were

10     fleeing in the area from Kakanj to Vares.  They had to leave their homes

11     because of attacks by the army of BiH in the area, and for several months

12     they were in this area as refugees outside their homes.

13        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document.  This is the last

14     document on this topic.  It's 1D 02343, 1D 02343.  This is dated -- this

15     is a report dated 16 November 1993.  It's from the Department for Human

16     Rights and Humanitarian Affairs of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna,

17     and if you could look at this.  And of course, we don't have much time,

18     but if you look at the last two paragraphs on the first page and the very

19     last paragraph on the second page of this report, we see various figures.

20     And I'm wondering whether you can assist us on how these statistics were

21     compiled, these figures of expelled persons?

22        A.   We've already discussed this, that these figures were collected

23     on the basis of reports from the municipalities which took in these

24     people, that is, from representatives of the refugees and displaced

25     persons, where they were in Vares, Kiseljak, Novi Travnik, Busovaca,

Page 31380

 1     Zenica, Konjic, so that on the 16th of November we have an overview of

 2     the overall situation giving the figures for Croats before the war, the

 3     total number expelled and the locations where they are now in

 4     Central Bosnia, how many of them had to flee outside Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, we're going to go into another topic

 6     and this deals with statistics.  There are actually two bundles of

 7     documents.  The first one, I'm going to read the number slowly.  We'll go

 8     one by one.  Obviously you've had a chance to look at these, but I'm

 9     going to ask you to just basically give one comment, and then there maybe

10     some questions from the Bench.  I will start with 1D 01868.  This is from

11     the Office of Expelled Persons and Refugees, and this is dated

12     9 June 1993.  If you could just tell us -- briefly just comment on this

13     one and I'll just go through the other ones briefly.

14             Do you recognise this and what is it, if you do so?

15        A.   I do recognise it.  This is a letter addressed to the

16     international humanitarian organisation A.I.C.F., which provided aid to

17     refugees in collective facilities, and this is a review of the facilities

18     where people were put up collectively in municipalities throughout the

19     area.  These were either trucks or kindergartens, primary schools, in

20     some cases sports halls, gyms.  And we can see that it was Croats who

21     were put up here in the area of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

22        Q.   All right.  I'm now going to go through these rather rapidly.  We

23     don't need any comment.  I'm just going to ask you at the end whether you

24     recognise these reports and can you vouch for the authenticity and the

25     reliability of the statistics in the reports.

Page 31381

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just put one question?  On line 17,

 2     reference is made to trucks.  It's a bit surprising.  It's possible, but

 3     I want to make sure that this was actually what the witness said.  "These

 4     were either trucks or kindergartens."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is reference to Vagon [phoen]

 6     neighbourhood in the translation there.  Train carriages, which were not

 7     being used at the time.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.  That is more likely.

 9     Thank you.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:

11        Q.   Okay.  If we go on, I will just go through the documents in

12     number.  1D 01800.  If you could just look at it, sir.  This is from the

13     Office of Displaced Persons.  Next document is 1D 01845.  Next document,

14     1D 00936.  Next document is 1D 01844.  1D 01802, 1D 01828, 1D 01846,

15     1D 01827, 1D 01843, 1D 01801, 1D 02021, 1D 02022, 1D 022 -- 2020,

16     1D 02462, 1D 01842, 1D 01840, 1D 01841, 1D 01839.

17             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Mr. Karnavas, really I do not wish to make your

18     task more difficult --

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...more miserable than it

20     already is.  I understand.

21             JUDGE PRANDLER:  -- but so many documents.  What can I do with

22     those if you just enumerate the numbers?

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  If you could wait for one moment.  Here's the

24     purpose of this, Judge Prandler.  We obviously can't go through all of

25     these.  If I try to submit them by way of motion, then they may be -- I

Page 31382

 1     may be accused of not having laid a foundation, so I can't get them in.

 2     I went through the first document.  These are all from the Office of

 3     Expelled Persons and Refugees.  The gentleman knows these documents, has

 4     seen them and will authenticate them.  It's the best I can do under the

 5     circumstances.  Otherwise, I have to move to way of motion.

 6             Frankly, in light of, with all due respect, past decisions, I

 7     have little confidence that the Trial Chamber will accept these documents

 8     without some sort of foundation, and so this is what I'm trying to do.

 9     I'm trying to be as creative as I possibly can under the circumstances,

10     having practised for 25 years, and this I must say is the most unusual

11     trial I'm conducting because of all these documents, time constraints,

12     complexity of issues.  So I'm trying to find magical ways to present

13     evidence in ways that would somehow assist you in getting to the truth at

14     the end of the trial, and that's what I'm trying to do.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I regret intervening,

16     but I would like to just make one point which is this:  Some months ago

17     the Prosecution has also tried to summon the creativity to tender

18     documents into evidence in this very same way.  The one witness who comes

19     to mind is Mr. Christopher Beese who through him the Prosecution

20     attempted to tender a number of the ECMM reports which he had looked at

21     and was prepared to testify as to their authenticity.  The Trial Chamber

22     declined to accept the documents under that procedure, and the

23     Prosecution was then forced to look to other ways to get the documents

24     into evidence.

25             So I understand the difficulties that counsel's facing.  However,

Page 31383

 1     I think on behalf the Prosecution, we have to insist that the procedures

 2     be equal as between both parties.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may address the issue.  I do recall being

 4     here.  Ms. Skye is the only one from the Prosecution that was here at the

 5     time.  We don't have Mr. -- I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was

 6     Daryl Mundis who did the direct on that particular case -- individual.

 7     Many of those documents had not been generated by the individual and had

 8     been sent on, and of course they had various offices throughout the

 9     place.

10             Now, here lies the difference, and perhaps Mr. Stringer may set

11     his concerns at ease with this:  This is from the Office of Expelled

12     Persons.  The gentleman was the deputy and then later on the head.  It is

13     a rather small office.  It deals with certain issues.  All of these

14     reports come out of that particular office.  He was in the -- he was in

15     situ at the time.  He was aware of the facts, hence why I'm asking him

16     questions such as do these comport and relatively reflect the situation

17     as it occurred at the time, and consistently the witness has said yes.

18     So this is why we're doing this.

19             The other way, I guess, I could put a motion in.  Frankly, I

20     don't see the problem with this -- I'm willing to go one by one.  I don't

21     have a problem with that.  However, on the one hand, I can't be given a

22     certain amount of time to work with and then, on the other hand, be

23     expected to do things the old fashioned way.  So something has to give.

24     And when the Trial Chamber denied our request for approximately 160

25     hours, we tried to find creative ways to manage our time, recognising

Page 31384

 1     that life is short and we can only -- you know, there's only so much we

 2     can spend on this case.  So I'm trying to find ways.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The difference between the

 4     documents of Mr. Beese were documents consisting of hundreds of pages,

 5     and your documents here there's about ten or so documents with

 6     statistical figures coming from the office of which the witness was one

 7     of the officials.  And therefore, in my opinion, there's no problem if

 8     you proceed in the following way, and that is to say, these are the

 9     documents, numbers so-and-so, and during the proofing we have reviewed

10     those documents.  Do you confirm that those documents were issued by your

11     office and you are aware of them, and the witness says yes, I confirm

12     them.  We've seen them one by one, and then you put your question to

13     them.  Such-and-such an element emerges from all of these documents.  Do

14     you confirm that or not?

15             As far as I'm concerned, this is evidence of creativity of

16     international justice, dane of the name [as interpreted], and we can

17     avoid all problems.  That is my view.  My colleagues may not be of that

18     opinion, but I wish this to be recorded in the transcript.  And if there

19     is no opposition on the part of my colleagues, please continue.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Counsel.  If I could just get an

22     objection on the record and then I won't intervene any more, because I

23     don't think we need to take more court time on this while the witness is

24     here.

25             The evidence will be tendered next week after the witness has

Page 31385

 1     completed his testimony.  I can inform the Trial Chamber that the

 2     Prosecution will object on the basis that I've already indicated.  It's

 3     our view that, in fact, there is to real operative distance between this

 4     witness's ability to authenticate these documents and Mr. Beese's

 5     ability, based on his position at the time, to authenticate the ECMM

 6     documents.  So again we don't need to argue about this here, but

 7     Prosecution will be objecting.

 8             And we're, I think, concerned, Mr. President, based on the

 9     comments that you've just made, about the possibility now of opening the

10     door to a means of tendering documents into evidence that was more closed

11     to the Prosecution during its case in chief.  But that's all I'll say on

12     that at this point and we'll make our objections next week when the

13     documents are tendered.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I just would like to declare also for the record

15     that while I have not opposed the President's votum a few moments ago, I

16     reserve my position and will take it when we will deliberate properly

17     within the Chamber.  Thank you.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Karnavas.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.  Thank you.  1D 013 -- 1D 01836, again

21     from the Office of Expelled Persons And Refugees.  1D 01837, 1D 01832,

22     1D 01833.  And then we have 1D 01834, 1D 01835, and 1D 01831.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Raguz, during the course of the prepping session

24     preparing to come here, did you have an opportunity to look at these

25     documents which were generated by the office where you were the deputy

Page 31386

 1     head and then head of office?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how these documents

 4     were generally prepared?  What was the methodology?

 5        A.   In these documents -- may I also be creative?  There are -- there

 6     is an overall review of the refugees.  Then there's a review of their

 7     places of origin where they have fled from, then how many of them were

 8     taken in by which municipality.  There's a record of the actual places

 9     that they came from, not just the municipalities, in Central Bosnia,

10     Konjic, Vares, and so on.  Then there are lists of collective reception

11     centres, the total number of refugees in relation to the local

12     population, and in that way, one can get a complete insight into the

13     situation until there was an official record of the total number of

14     refugees as agreed at the level of the ministry.

15        Q.   What was the -- I understand that you indicated that official

16     census as opposed to official record.  An official census of the total

17     number of refugees, is that what you meant?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, exactly.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, what was the -- you told us why there were --

20     why these records were being kept.  Did the legislation, the legal

21     instrument that set up the office for this particular office, did it

22     require you to document the sort of information that is documented here?

23        A.   It was our obligation to provide information to the institution

24     that established us; first of all, to the HVO and subsequently to the

25     government.  We had to tell them about the situation with expelled

Page 31387

 1     persons throughout the territory under the HVO, and we had to inform them

 2     about the overall humanitarian situation.  We could only do this if we

 3     were well informed, if we had a certain amount of data.  We did this to

 4     the best of our ability, but I can tell you that it's very correct

 5     information.  It was compiled on the basis of specific reports and of

 6     people who lived in these various places.

 7        Q.   All right.  Was this information also provided to the

 8     international organisations that were at the time working there?

 9        A.   We were in permanent contact with them and on the whole, these

10     humanitarian organisations were aware of this information.

11        Q.   All right.  And were these records made in the normal course of

12     business?  In other words, did you make them as part of standard

13     procedure or were they made on an ad hoc basis depending on how somebody

14     felt on a particular day?

15        A.   This information was compiled in the analysis department.  It was

16     brought up-to-date every day on the basis of the information that we

17     obtained from the various places concerned.

18        Q.   Now, the information that you're receiving that is being put onto

19     these reports, where is it coming from?

20        A.   The information would arrive from municipalities, from places

21     that people had been expelled from, from information about the number of

22     people at risk, from municipalities that accepted such people,

23     municipalities that would eventually give them the status of displaced

24     individuals or expelled individuals and would then provide them with

25     accommodation.  So we have data on the basis of municipalities, and we

Page 31388

 1     have collective data for all the municipalities.  This can be seen in the

 2     documents that you have presented.

 3             This is very important because these documents provide you with

 4     an overview of the actual situation with regard to the number of expelled

 5     persons or other refugees.  You could see which areas they had come from,

 6     under what circumstances and when they arrived.

 7             These documents are the best proof of the suffering of the

 8     population, of the extent to which they were victims.

 9             You asked me about this by referring to the term of reverse

10     ethnic cleansing.  This suffering is on a historical scale and can

11     determine relationships in Bosnia-Herzegovina in a completely new way.

12     The main task, therefore, is to know what the real truth is and make it

13     possible for all those who want to return to return to their homes.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, part of your position being the deputy head and

15     later on the head, were you required in any way to be kept abreast of the

16     sort of information that is compiled in these particular reports?  I'm

17     told that the translation is incorrect.  Let me go back again.  I don't

18     understand Croatian.  I can't hear the translation.  No disrespect to the

19     translators.

20        A.   The question wasn't clear to me.  Please repeat it.

21        Q.   Let me go back.  Based on your position being the deputy head and

22     then later on the head of office, was part of your function, part of your

23     day-to-day job to be aware of and to keep current with the sort of

24     information that we see in these particular reports?

25        A.   If you perform your duties correctly to the extent that you have

Page 31389

 1     information, if you act to prevent situations, well, yes, you can then

 2     act appropriately, but you can't act appropriately if you don't have

 3     adequate information.

 4        Q.   That was my next question.  Was the information in these reports

 5     then being used by you or Mr. Tadic in order to make certain decisions on

 6     a number of -- host of issues that were occurring and unraveling moment

 7     to moment, day by day, week by week, month to month?

 8        A.   Yes, the information was used for the purposes of the office's

 9     operations and in order to satisfy these people's needs when it came to

10     accommodation, transport and other forms of support and assistance.  At

11     the beginning of October, as you have seen, we were told that there been

12     7.000 individuals who would arrive in Vares.  They had been expelled from

13     Kakanj.  And in 15 days' time, we received information about where

14     accommodation had been provided for them, where they had been received.

15     So we had to have access to information on an independent basis in order

16     to assist people and we continually used such information.

17             If you're talking about my office, my role in the office, we had

18     information on humanitarian convoys, on the passage of humanitarian

19     convoys, and we tried to perform our duties -- duties to the best of our

20     abilities and in responsible manner under the circumstances that

21     prevailed at the time.

22        Q.   Fine.  Two more questions.  One, you had -- we see that you were

23     on some commissions.  You had contact with international -- with

24     individuals that were representing international organisations such as

25     UNHCR.  Did you use information contained in these very reports in your

Page 31390

 1     dealings with those particular individuals, in your meetings, in your

 2     commissions?

 3        A.   I did.

 4        Q.   Finally, over the course of two days, you were questioned as a

 5     suspect by the Office the Prosecution where they had at their disposal

 6     various documents, and of course, you provided them with documentation as

 7     well.  Did questions concerning your activities and in particular

 8     activities that are related and described and analysed in the documents

 9     that we have seen, were questions posed to you concerning these -- these

10     reports?

11        A.   Yes, such questions were posed to me.

12        Q.   Let's move to the next document, P 09851?

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, if --

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  If it will assist on the foundation, go for it.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If we had had these documents in a bundle, we

16     could have looked at them and maybe found more issues to ask, but I have

17     just one question.  We see that there was a flow of refugees, displaced

18     persons, and then they end up in different municipalities.

19             What is the explanation why a specific refugee, displaced person,

20     ends up in one municipality rather than another?  Is that sheer accident,

21     or was there some way of coordination?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was coordinated, and I have

23     already told you how, that there was an office that coordinated such

24     matters, because had there been no coordination, it wouldn't have been

25     possible to receive this enormous number of individuals in a -- in an

Page 31391

 1     appropriate manner.

 2             You'll see that all municipalities had expelled persons, received

 3     expelled persons.  It's not as if we tried to direct them to one

 4     municipality rather than another.  It depended on the situation at the

 5     time.

 6             They didn't only end up in municipalities.  Almost 200.000 ended

 7     up in Croatia or in other countries, like many Bosniaks.  Several hundred

 8     thousand of them ended up in Croatia or in other countries.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And the office you're speaking about was your

10     office, ODPR?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And could municipalities refuse to accept

13     refugees that you had assigned to a municipality?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, we never took decisions

15     or allocated individuals without having the agreement or proposal from a

16     municipality.  If there was no solidarity -- had there been no solidarity

17     we wouldn't have been able to act in the manner that we did.  The

18     situation cannot be clearly explained in a few paragraphs.  The

19     solidarity that was manifested will be permanently on record.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Your answer is quite plausible.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a very brief

22     question for you.  While Mr. Karnavas was putting questions to you and

23     you were answering the answers, I listened to you, and I also examined

24     the scores of documents that make it possible for a Judge to scan the

25     contents of the documents very quickly, and when going through the

Page 31392

 1     documents, 1D 0100835 was the document that I focused on.  It concerns

 2     the Vares.  We know that refugees from Kakanj came to Vares, and then

 3     given the ABiH attack and events in Stupni Do, the Croatian population of

 4     Vares left Vares.

 5             According to this document 1D 01835, it says that 15.000

 6     inhabitants left Vares.  It's an enormous number.  But in other documents

 7     that we saw in the course of the day, I noted that sometimes there are

 8     documents that say that there were 5.000 individuals that left Vares and

 9     other documents say 3.000 individuals left Vares, so the figures are

10     varied in these various documents.  Mr. Karnavas has put some technical

11     questions to you in order to find out how these documents were compiled

12     and an investigative judge in a civil law country would have acted in a

13     similar manner, and you answered those questions.  In this document 1835,

14     the figure referred to is 15.000.  Is this a rough figure or is this

15     figure supported by very precise records on the various places?

16             My colleague Judge Trechsel asked you a minute ago how these

17     refugees were allocated to various municipalities.  So this figure of

18     15.000, is based on the records from municipalities, Kiseljak, Kresevo,

19     which is where they were placed later, or is it a global assessment?  Is

20     it an empirical assessment, based on experience?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  You have

22     put a very good question to me, because in this document that you are

23     referring to the figure is 15.000 of Croats who were expelled from the

24     area of the Kakanj municipality, but it was at various periods of time

25     that they left.  They weren't all moved out or expelled at the same time,

Page 31393

 1     but that is the total figure.  There were two big convoys, one of 5.000,

 2     one of 4.000, and then there were several smaller convoys.  Some stayed

 3     on and that accounts for the total figure.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that answer.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:

 6        Q.   Very well.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Raguz, if we can look at just one

 7     last document on this topic, and that's P 09851.  P 09851.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  This is a document that's under seal, I believe,

 9     Mr. President.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  If it's under seal then I guess the public

11     shouldn't see it, but nonetheless I think it's important to be commented

12     upon.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we won't show the document

14     to the outside world, but you can pose questions to the witness with

15     regard to this document.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Well, if I could suggest that it maybe necessary

17     to go into private session, because the witness that led the evidence is

18     also a closed-session witness.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  I won't mention the name of the witness, but I

20     don't think we should be depriving the public of the truth.  I mean,

21     that's the problem.  I think it's important for the public to know what

22     is being reported --

23             MR. STRINGER:  No.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- because there's great deal of misinformation

25     and disinformation and propaganda --

Page 31394

 1             MR. STRINGER:  No.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- and this is why.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, counsel.  This is a Rule 70 document

 4     that is under seal, Mr. President.  There's no permission to talk about

 5     the document in any public form.  We have to be in private session.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges would prefer this

 7     document to be discussed in private session.  Naturally, the public has

 8     to be taken into account, but the Judges also need to have a precise idea

 9     of what actually happened so we will very briefly go into private

10     session.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31395











11 Pages 31395-31397 redacted. Private session.















Page 31398

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   If we look at document 1D 00669, this is a decision on utilising

17     or using immovable property by physical persons.  It's dated 2 December

18     1992.  It's from the Mostar municipality signed by Jadran Topic who was

19     the president at the time.  If we look at that document, and then if we

20     look at another document, 1D 01892.  This is dated 22 December 1993, and

21     this is a decree prohibiting property transactions in wartime under

22     direct threat of war signed by Dr. Jadranko Prlic.

23             Were these the legal instruments that you were thinking of at the

24     time that you answered that signing over property deeds was prohibited by

25     law?

Page 31399

 1        A.   Yes.  And the regulations prevent the use of immovable property

 2     and their exchange among physical persons during the state of war.

 3     That's the first document.  And the second is in the territory of the

 4     Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, if we go on to one other -- we're going

 6     to switch topics a little bit.  There are two small topics left.

 7     1D 02631, 1D 02631.  If you look at that you will see that this is a

 8     form.  It's a request for assistance in obtaining a transit visa through

 9     the Republic of Croatia.  We haven't spoken much about this, but do you

10     feel sufficiently qualified to tell us a little bit about this sort of

11     form and what transit visas were used based on your activities and your

12     function at the time?

13        A.   I do know that in a certain number of cases the head -- the

14     office for refugees of the government of the Republic of Croatia did

15     issue transit visas.  This was a measure of the government of the

16     Republic of Croatia which, in view of the circumstances and the existence

17     of a vast number of refugees which were overflowing, and they wanted to

18     have insight into the possibility of accommodating them and also having

19     to have guarantees that the persons going through Croatia would indeed

20     move on to third countries as indicated in the transit visas.

21             The municipalities or the social welfare centres and Red Cross

22     offices in municipalities were a kind of service assisting people who

23     wanted to go to third countries in this way, and this is one such request

24     which is signed by this particular individual with this first and last

25     name.  For the execution of this request a guarantee was needed from the

Page 31400

 1     country he was leaving, a letter of guarantee saying that the person --

 2     I'm sorry, the country he was going to, that the person would have full

 3     accommodation and care.  And these were in most cases individual

 4     requests, as far as I know.  That's as much as I can say about this.

 5             May I also add that after these requests were collected, the

 6     office in Zagreb usually approved these requests if the person had a

 7     letter of guarantee and security in the country he was going to, and the

 8     response was usually a favourable one.

 9        Q.   All right.  One last question concerning these -- these transit

10     visas.  Was there some kind of a collusion between the Croatian Community

11     of Herceg-Bosna and the Republic of Croatia to use these sort of transit

12     visas in order to ethnically cleanse parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina of

13     its Muslim population?

14        A.   The very fact that a very small number of people as a proportion

15     of the total number of refugees went in this way, so this instrument

16     cannot be in any way described as serving the purpose of ethnic

17     cleansing.  Secondly, the procedure itself confirmed that the people were

18     going to places where they would be better off or to link up with their

19     families or to find safety, and I think that was the fundamental role of

20     this service.

21        Q.   If we go on now to the very last document --

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just ask a question.  You said a very

23     small number.  Do you have an idea what that number amounts to?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my assessment, there may have

25     been several thousand, that's all, on the outside, compared to a million

Page 31401

 1     people who went to a hundred countries in the world.  I don't think there

 2     were more than 1 or 2.000 such transit visas issued, and the office in

 3     Zagreb should have a more precise record.

 4             JUDGE PRANDLER:  May I ask a question here.  Mr. Raguz you said

 5     in your latest answer that:  "...on the outside, compared to a million

 6     people who went to a hundred countries in the world."  As far as I

 7     remember, but in a way I stand to be corrected, from -- from the census

 8     in Herceg-Bosna there were about between 800 and 900.000 of Croats.

 9     Again I say that I read it somewhere, but I cannot now cite the exact

10     figure.  So then the million should be quite a kind of exaggeration, so I

11     wonder what is your figure about that.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the total number

13     of refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina, not just from the area under HVO

14     control.  And these are official data, not mine.  Including Bosniaks,

15     Croats and Serbs, all of those who sought shelter outside of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.

17             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Thank you.  That is clear then that it is not

18     only relating to Croats from Herceg-Bosna but to the -- in comparison

19     with the whole population of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:

22        Q.   And while we're on the topic, prior to the clashes between the

23     Croats and the Muslims, given your experiences and your positions that

24     you were holding, do you know whether Muslims and Croats who had been

25     turned into displaced persons and refugees had gone to third countries?

Page 31402

 1     In other words, not just gone to Croatia but gone beyond Croatia.  This

 2     is before the clashes between the Croats and the Muslims.  We do have

 3     evidence that there were large waves of displaced persons as a result of

 4     the aggression caused by --

 5        A.   Absolutely so.

 6        Q.   We're talking prior to April 1993; correct?

 7        A.   Absolutely, yes.  Almost from the very beginning and not from --

 8     only from 1992.  The attack on Ravno was in September 1991.  So from that

 9     moment on until the period we're talking about; that is, for more than a

10     year, several hundred thousand people had to leave their homes.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, if we could go to the very last document, and

12     it's P 06324.  P 06324.  And I should note for the record that this is an

13     excerpt that comes from P 06323, so there's no dilemma and it's a report

14     on the work of the government of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna

15     for the period November 1993 to March 1994.  And this is just a discrete

16     section of that report dealing primarily with the Office for Expelled

17     Persons and Refugees.

18             Sir, have you had an opportunity to look at this -- this

19     document?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   And do you recognise it?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   And this segment -- this segment of the report, can you please

24     tell us, since it refers to your particular office, who would have been

25     responsible for compiling it?

Page 31403

 1        A.   As you can see, this contains a report of the work of each of the

 2     departments in the office.  There's the department for caring for

 3     refugees and displaced persons, the analytical department, the department

 4     for humanitarian aid, the department for reconstruction.

 5        Q.   Exactly.  And those were the departments that --

 6        A.   So this is a collective report for all the departments indicating

 7     what they had done in the period.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to focus your attention to the Department

 9     for Expelled Persons and Refugees, and in particular if we look at -- it

10     would be page 3, Your Honours, of this particular document.  Bless you.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:

13        Q.   The very top paragraph.  It says:  "Fortunately, in October 1993

14     Hotel Bigeste in Ljubuski which had been and was being restored by

15     international humanitarian organisations was functioning as a reception

16     centre where several thousands of displayed persons stayed for shorter or

17     longer periods."

18             And this in the original reports, Your Honours, would be on page

19     128.  Yeah, I'm sorry, 128 in the original report.

20             Do you have that section, sir?  Have you been able to find that

21     section?

22        A.   Yes, I have.

23        Q.   Now, concerning Ljubuski, if you could please describe to us or

24     tell us exactly about this particular reception centre.

25        A.   I can.  Ljubuski was one of the municipalities which were exposed

Page 31404

 1     to the influx of the largest number of refugees throughout the war, not

 2     just at this stage.  And in this report there's reference to

 3     October 1993, saying that Hotel Bigeste, which existed in Ljubuski though

 4     it didn't have the necessary conditions for accommodation, with the

 5     assistance of international humanitarian organisations it was refurbished

 6     and developed into a reception centre.  And this was of great assistance

 7     because in that period of time there was a daily influx of a large number

 8     of refugees, and accommodation in this hotel provided good quality

 9     accommodation for those people.

10        Q.   All right.  And this reception centre --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Mike please.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:

13        Q.   This reception centre, just to make sure we're absolutely clear,

14     when it was established, was it established in order to ethnically

15     cleanse Muslims?  Was that the purpose of it?  Was it intended to reverse

16     ethnic cleanse the Croats, or was it established in order to deal with

17     the humanitarian crisis and, if so, who were the first occupants of

18     this -- or, yes, occupants of this reception centre?

19        A.   Its purpose was exclusively humanitarian.  That is why the

20     facility was reconstructed.  And it could not have been done without the

21     assistance of the international humanitarian organisations.  So there was

22     absolutely no discrimination.  Both Croats and Bosniaks were accommodated

23     here, and a large number of Croats were received here.

24        Q.   And one last question now, and perhaps it's self-evident, but we

25     see it's a reception centre.  By its very nature what is a reception

Page 31405

 1     centre, and are there any distinctions between a reception centre and,

 2     say, another sort of centre?

 3        A.   There is a difference, because this is collective accommodation,

 4     which means that a certain number of refugees or displaced persons are

 5     accommodated in a single facility.  And collective centres we have seen,

 6     which there were in various municipalities, they accommodated a certain

 7     number of refugees who stayed there until their status was resolved,

 8     whereas the reception centre was a place where people could come to on a

 9     daily basis.  Because of the events and the suffering that people were

10     exposed to, they had to have somewhere they could go, be it in the middle

11     of the night, and that is what these reception centres were.  And this is

12     nothing new.  We have seen that such reception centres existed in other

13     places in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.

14        Q.   Thank you very, very much, Mr. Raguz.  I apologise for taking a

15     little bit longer than I had anticipated.  I would ask you to be as open

16     and as frank in your answers to any questions posed to you by anyone else

17     in and around this courtroom.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The other lawyers.

19     Madam Nozica.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The Defence

21     counsel for Mr. Stojic has no questions for this witness.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a day of good news,

23     apparently.

24             Mr. Kovacic.

25             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I said earlier on,

Page 31406

 1     the Defence for General Praljak will not have any questions for this

 2     witness.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Defence counsel for

 5     General Petkovic would like to give you good news, but unfortunately, we

 6     do have a few questions because we feel that this witness may be able to

 7     help us in clarifying certain points.

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good evening, Your Honours.  Good evening,

10     Mr. Raguz.  On behalf of the Defence of General Petkovic, I should like

11     to ask you one, maybe several questions connected to your answer to

12     questions by colleague Karnavas when he mentioned Lord Owen's book and

13     the conversation between Lord Owen and Alija Izetbegovic whether women

14     and children should leave areas exposed to attacks, and your answer was

15     that you didn't wish to enter into any speculation whether

16     Alija Izetbegovic and his government had intentionally kept children and

17     their mothers in war-stricken areas or not.

18             It is clear that the Sarajevo authorities wished to keep the

19     attention of the international public focused on the suffering of women

20     and children, and this was used for the achievement of certain political

21     aims.  You will remember that answer that you gave, and it appears in

22     yesterday's transcript.

23        A.   I'd like to see it.  You don't think you quoted me with

24     precision.

25        Q.   I will read it to you in English.  The question was whether it

Page 31407

 1     was politically necessary to keep women and children in Sarajevo, and

 2     your answer was, and I quote in English:  "[In English] Whether this was

 3     politically necessary, well, I wouldn't want to go into that issue.  But

 4     it is a fact that the government in Sarajevo wanted the local and

 5     international public to focus on such matters for their own political

 6     objectives."

 7        A.   That is correct, yes, but it differs from what you've said

 8     significantly.  I didn't say that they had sacrificed women.  I said that

 9     women and children did suffer.  That's a fact.  So we need to clear that

10     up.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] My question did not contain the word

12     "sacrifice," nor did I wish to insinuate that.  I would like to know,

13     though you didn't live in Mostar for long, nor did you stay there for any

14     length of time, do you have any knowledge about the situation in

15     Eastern Mostar in the second half of 1993, or is your knowledge

16     insufficient for you to be able to comment on the situation there?

17        A.   I can comment.  In those days there were fierce conflicts in

18     Mostar, and the humanitarian situation was complicated.

19        Q.   I shall put to you some concrete questions on the basis of

20     documents that have already been adopted as evidence and on the basis of

21     the testimony of certain representatives of international organisations.

22     My first question has to do with the possible -- the possibility that

23     inhabitants of Eastern Mostar, in the second half of 1993 and later,

24     wanted to leave Mostar, whereas the local authorities did not allow them

25     to do that.

Page 31408

 1             Do you have any knowledge about such developments in

 2     Eastern Mostar?

 3        A.   You're referring to the authorities in Eastern Mostar?

 4             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm very sorry.  It is my perennial problem and

 5     concern.  Please let me ask both of you to make a break, a pause between

 6     your question and your answer for the sake of the interpreters.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, counsel.  Mr. President, just while

 9     we're at this point I'd like to make an objection for the record that

10     this line of questioning is beyond the scope of the direct examination,

11     and so, in our view, it's not proper cross-examination.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

13     theme is the humanitarian situation and that includes Mostar.  I thought

14     that was the subject of the examination-in-chief.  Such a question -- if

15     such a question -- such a question perhaps concerned another town in

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina, but if you assess that -- the situation as

17     different, you can decide that the time I use should be taken away from

18     the Petkovic Defence, I believe.  I can continue then you can decide

19     whether it's cross-examination or not.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you laid the

22     foundation of the question because in the course of the

23     examination-in-chief Mr. Karnavas put questions to the witness concerning

24     Sarajevo, and the witness told us that there had been victims in

25     Sarajevo, et cetera, and I believe that you want to transpose the

Page 31409

 1     situation in Sarajevo to Mostar.  That is your objective, although

 2     Mr. Karnavas addressed this matter incidentally.  It wasn't the main

 3     object of his examination.

 4             The Judges have conferred.  At this point in time we believe we

 5     should deduct all the time that you will spend on this matter from the

 6     time you have, so please go ahead.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest that you

 8     take your final decision on the matter once I have gone through all the

 9     documents I intend to go through.  I'll take this in a different order

10     now.

11             Your Honours, could we go into private session, please, because

12     I'll be dealing with a document that we have already discussed in private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Registrar.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31410











11 Page 31410 redacted. Private session.















Page 31411

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let's have a look at the following document perhaps your familiar

13     with this book, Mr. Raguz, it's a book by Esad Sejtanovic, Herzegovina on

14     the Fiery Gateway of Bosnia, document 4D 00545.  We have only translated

15     one passage for the needs of this case, a passage that is important to

16     us, and I'll quote it:  "The situation in the town and the environment

17     was increasingly difficult.  There was hunger that was widespread and the

18     little food that came from Jablanica through Glogova to Mostar was

19     distributed in parts, and a large number of inhabitants wanted to leave

20     for Jablanica and further on for Bosnia because of repressive measures,

21     and fortunately, we managed to prevent or reduce people from moving and

22     we limited movement to a minimum."

23             But, Mr. Raguz, have you perhaps read this book?

24        A.   I'm familiar with this book.  I haven't read it, but what is

25     stated here is clear to me.

Page 31412

 1        Q.   But that would correspond to what you have been telling us so

 2     far, that that is quite possible.

 3        A.   Yes.  That is quite possible.

 4        Q.   In the documents we have been through there's reference to

 5     inhabitants leaving Eastern Mostar and heading off in the direction of

 6     Jablanica.  Are you aware of the fact that there was a corridor through

 7     which there was contact between Eastern Mostar and Jablanica, and it was

 8     possible to pass from one location to the other unhindered, more or less,

 9     for that entire period of time.

10        A.   I'm familiar with the existence of that corridor.

11        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the corridor was used by the ABiH

12     to receive weapons and ammunition on a regular basis?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, please slow down,

14     because the interpreters are having a little difficulty.

15             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not Ms. Nozica,

16     although I'd gladly be Ms. Nozica, but I will take what you said into

17     account.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was thinking about her

19     because she's right in front of my eyes.  I apologise, Ms. Alaburic, but

20     could you slow down.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

22        Q.   So my question was as follows, Mr. Raguz:  Have you ever heard

23     about the fact that the ABiH used that corridor throughout the entire

24     period of the conflict in order to receive weapons and ammunition and it

25     also received reinforcements, specific military units from other parts of

Page 31413

 1     Bosnia?

 2        A.   Yes, I think that's right.

 3        Q.   Mr. Raguz, Witness Thornberry appeared here.  Cedric Thornberry.

 4     You do know who the person is; isn't that correct?  Could you answer that

 5     question?

 6        A.   I'm familiar with the name, yes.

 7        Q.   He told us that towards the end of August and in September there

 8     was a media campaign that was being conducted so that the population of

 9     Western countries would become aware of the difficult humanitarian

10     situation in Eastern Mostar.  Those who were behind the campaign believed

11     that the population of those countries would exert pressure on their

12     governments in order to ensure that they took energetic steps in order to

13     assist Mostar.  If you want to check what Mr. Thornberry said, you can

14     find this in the transcript on page 26275 to 26276, and 26277.

15             Mr. Raguz, do you have any information according to which the

16     foreign media, in fact, conducted a campaign and presented the situation

17     in a biased way, the situation in Eastern Mostar was presented in a

18     biased way, they exaggerated certain difficulties in order to ensure a

19     reversal in the policies pursued by certain Western countries in relation

20     to Mostar.  Do you have any information about that?

21        A.   All I can confirm is that there was a very intense media campaign

22     that was being conducted.  It would be necessary to analyse all the

23     components of that campaign, but what you have referred to is certainly

24     one of the components of that campaign.

25        Q.   In the -- given your answer could I draw the conclusion that you

Page 31414

 1     in fact do not remember the individual elements of that campaign and you

 2     could not tell us what the main ideas of the campaign were?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   In that case, I have no further questions and I would like to

 5     thank the Chamber for the time allocated to me.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.  I

 7     didn't make a mistake this time.

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9     The Coric Defence team has no questions for this witness.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Ibrisimovic.

11             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

12     questions for this witness.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have 25 minutes

14     before we adjourn.  Does the Prosecution feel that they can commence now?

15     It's 20 to 7.00, so you have 20 minutes.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Very well, Mr. President.  We can begin.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, commence then.

18             MR. STRINGER:  I have to get set up with the podium and my papers

19     but I will ask my colleague with the assistance of the usher to

20     distribute the documents.

21             Mr. Raguz, if you'd give me a minute to arrange myself.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer:

23        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Raguz, as the documents are passed out I will take

24     this opportunity to introduce myself to you.  My name is

25     Douglas Stringer.  I will be asking you questions on behalf of the

Page 31415

 1     Prosecution, and I'm going to take you first to a document that is in one

 2     of the Prosecution binders.  It's at tab number P 07500.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, if possible could

 4     you tell us whether we can find this in binder 1 or 2?

 5             MR. STRINGER:  It's in binder 1, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Raguz, while we're getting oriented with that document, I

 7     just want to recall a bit of your testimony from earlier today on the

 8     issue of statistics and reporting.  And if I recall correctly, it's your

 9     testimony, sir, that in fact the statistical data that ODPR was receiving

10     on the numbers and the composition and the other characteristics of the

11     various refugee and displaced person populations is data that was coming

12     in from the various municipalities themselves which was housing or

13     accommodating those refugees; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And would it be fair to say, sir, that given the numbers that

16     you've been testifying about and the various difficulties that were

17     confronting all of these individuals that you and your office viewed it

18     as very important to keep, to maintain as accurate statistics as

19     possible, understanding, of course, that the circumstances that prevailed

20     at the time were difficult in terms of obtaining precise or -- or exact

21     numbers?

22        A.   That was the intention.

23        Q.   And then -- well, just looking at this document which you have in

24     front of you, this one, if you go to the very end of it, it's dated the

25     6th of January, 1994.  It appears to be a report prepared by the Office

Page 31416

 1     of Displaced Persons and Refugees, by two gentlemen named Mirko Alilovic

 2     and Ante Aleksic.  Do you see that?

 3        A.   I see it now.  It's the first time.

 4        Q.   Did Mr. Alilovic and Mr. Aleksic work for the ODPR in January of

 5     1994?

 6        A.   They worked for the centre for social care in Mostar, but apart

 7     from that, as far as I know, Mr. Alilovic at the time had already

 8     retired.  I knew him personally.

 9        Q.   Well, do you see his signature on the bottom of this document?

10        A.   Yes, I can see his signature.

11        Q.   Okay.  Then, of course, I'm working off the English version, but

12     the third page of the document, which is the page that comes after the

13     map, the city plan of Mostar, appears to be -- well, it indicates that

14     this is a report of the Office for the Displaced Persons and Refugees

15     Mostar.  Do you see that?

16        A.   I can see that, but what I can't say is that this is not an

17     official document.  It was never examined as an official document of the

18     office, and no one ever acted on the basis of this document, because

19     otherwise I would have been familiar with the document.  These might be

20     the personal reminiscences of Mr. Alilovic and his -- his views.

21        Q.   All right.  I want to ask you some questions about this document

22     nonetheless, sir, given these two gentlemen at least purporting to be

23     writing a report on behalf of the Office of Displaced Persons and

24     Refugees.  Can we agree, sir, that based on the name of this report this

25     appears to be related exclusively to the Mostar municipality?

Page 31417

 1        A.   Well, look, you don't have a protocol here in this document, so

 2     such a document wasn't a document of the Office for Refugees and

 3     Displaced Persons in which I work.  This is the first time I've seen this

 4     document, and that's all I can say about this document.  I would need

 5     time to go through it and analyse it, but given the role of the office

 6     this document is irrelevant because it wasn't a document that originated

 7     in the office.

 8             You can see that this is an essay, a book.  These are opinions.

 9     You saw that in other documents we didn't work in this manner.  Our

10     office didn't work in this manner.

11        Q.   Let me then just ask you a few questions about the opinions of

12     these gentlemen that are expressed in the document.  I'm not going to ask

13     you about the statistics or the numbers that are contained in the tables,

14     at least not the tables 3, 4, and 5.  Well, let me ask you this first

15     since you know these gentlemen, Mr. Alilovic and Mr. Aleksic.  Tell me

16     again, what were their positions then, as far as you can recall?  What --

17     what was their job in respect of refugees?

18        A.   As I have told you, these people were over 70 years of age, and

19     they -- well, as far as Mr. Alilovic is concerned, I said that I could

20     remember him personally.  He was over 70.  I think he used to be in the

21     Centre for Social Care in Mostar.  These centres dealt with these tasks,

22     with communications, distribution, record-keeping.  But I can say for

23     certain that he didn't play a role or didn't hold a position of

24     responsibility in the Office for Expelled Persons and Refugees.

25        Q.   And then also Mr. Aleksic.  Tell us who was he and what was his

Page 31418

 1     position?

 2        A.   I was thinking of Mr. Aleksic, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Then tell us about --

 4        A.   I apologise.

 5        Q.   Then what about Mr. Alilovic?

 6        A.   I think the situation was the same.  They were linked to the

 7     centre.

 8        Q.   Tell me, then, you're talking about the Centre for Social Care in

 9     Mostar.  Is that a separate office or body which dealt with issues

10     regarding displaced persons and refugees?

11        A.   The Centre for Social Care -- well, the centres were bodies in

12     municipalities that dealt with the displaced persons, but it also dealt

13     with the social issues.  Such institutions existed in these

14     municipalities before the war, during the war and after the war.  So

15     these institutions exist in general in all municipalities.

16        Q.   Okay.  So that in addition to the Office for Displaced Persons

17     and Refugees that you were associated with, there were other bodies at

18     other levels, the municipality level, for instance, which also dealt with

19     issues concerning displaced persons and refugees; is that correct?

20        A.   I have already said in my testimony that municipal centres for

21     social work dealt with such issues, or municipal Red Cross offices.  They

22     dealt with such issues.

23        Q.   All right.  Did those municipal-level organisations such as this,

24     did they in general coordinate or communicate with ODPR in the

25     coordination of activities in order to care for and to accommodate the

Page 31419

 1     refugees and displaced persons?

 2        A.   Yes.  As I have already said, there was such coordination.

 3        Q.   All right.  So in any event, there were other bodies comprised of

 4     other individuals who may or may not have been sharing your own views or

 5     the official policies of ODPR in respect of refugees and displaced

 6     persons; is that correct?

 7        A.   I can't say that it is correct, because with regard to the issues

 8     that the office dealt with, the positions were quite clear when it comes

 9     to coordinating issues concerning refugees and displaced persons.  So

10     everything had to be in agreement with the policies of the office.

11        Q.   All right.  I'll be asking you more about the policies of the

12     office tomorrow.  Just in the few minutes that we have left to us this

13     evening, I want to -- I recognise you're not -- you're not keen to adopt

14     or to associate yourself with this report, but you did say something, I

15     think, that is relevant to this report in your testimony earlier today.

16        A.   Absolutely not.

17        Q.   Okay.  Because this report in that it relates to areas under the

18     control of the HVO, you mention this in your commentary on the -- one the

19     earlier reports that you testified about in private session, and that is

20     the fact that there was joint statistics prior to the 9th of May, 1993.

21     And then as I understood it, after the 9th of May, 1993, the

22     record-keeping or the statistics in respect of refugees and displaced

23     persons was no longer joint, which I take to mean that from that point

24     forward the Croats, the Bosnian Croats, in this region kept their own

25     statistics, and the Bosnian Muslims for their part kept their own

Page 31420

 1     statistics, and the statistics were not then all put together

 2     collectively.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   On the whole, but we also had the opportunity to see that we had

 4     differing information about the number of refugees in the eastern part of

 5     Mostar.  It was different from, for example, an organisation such as the

 6     UNHCR.

 7        Q.   I guess my question is a bit different.  In all of these

 8     statistics and the numbers of the ODPR concerning the numbers of refugees

 9     and displaced persons and all the numbers in the documents of ODPR that

10     you've talked about already, those ODPR reports do not include the

11     numbers of refugees and displaced persons who were in ABiH territory, for

12     example, East Mostar; is that correct?

13        A.   I have told you the period that they covered, and this is the

14     opinion of the UNHCR, it covered the period up to the beginning the war

15     in Mostar, but there is also data, analytic data that we have already

16     discussed that show the situation in Eastern Mostar, and this can be

17     found in the office data.

18        Q.   And I'll try to ask -- it's a simple question and it will be my

19     last one for tonight.  After the 9th of May, is it true, sir, that none

20     of the ODPR data on refugees and displaced persons included the numbers

21     of the people in East Mostar?  That was excluded from the ODPR numbers

22     after the 9th of May; correct?

23        A.   I have just said that in certain reports from the report -- even

24     after the 9th of May there was such information on the number of refugees

25     in the eastern part of Mostar.

Page 31421

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's time to

 4     adjourn.  Tomorrow we will be sitting at 2.15, and I wish you a good

 5     evening.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day

 8                           of August, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.