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Page 32067

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stringer.

3 MR. STRINGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.

4 Just one small clarification from the remarks you just made in

5 respect of the witness summary for Mr. Puljic. The transcript indicates

6 that his witness testimony was to be provided on Wednesday, the 9th, and

7 I think that the 9th is actually Tuesday, and so we weren't sure which

8 day we could expect the witness summary.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was, in fact, going to

10 correct this. Judge Prandler told me that Tuesday is the 9th and

11 Wednesday is the 10th, so I was going to say that it was on Wednesday,

12 the 10th of September. Very well, then.

13 The Trial Chamber prepared a decision on the order in which the

14 witness was to be examined, but at 1400 hours, the Chamber was informed

15 of the fact that this witness will not be appearing.

16 Mr. Karnavas, what is the problem that you have encountered?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

18 Your Honours.

19 Well, it's not a problem that I've encountered, but approximately

20 11.30 this morning, while meeting with the witness, it was learned that

21 the witness would not be testifying. I should say that on Friday, all

22 day Friday, the witness, who was brought here on that particular day at

23 the Prlic Defence costs, spent the entire day with the other Defence

24 teams, whoever wanted to meet with him, Saturday and Sunday all day. The

25 witness met with us. Sunday evening, he met with one of the other

Page 32068

1 Defence teams. This morning, he met with the Petkovic Defence team

2 again, even though they had all day Friday with him. And then again we

3 met with the witness later on, and, frankly, I think that the decision

4 that the witness made was a private decision, it was a decision made

5 based on a variety of information that he gathered throughout the

6 weekend, I suspect. And it had nothing to do, I can assure you, nothing

7 to do with the spectacle that was witnessed on Thursday, for which I will

8 still apologise, 25 years and as a practitioner, I've never had to --

9 well, I've never been challenged in such a way that my integrity was on

10 that day, and I never had to respond in like fashion. But, in any event,

11 it had nothing to do with that.

12 Needless to say, I can assure you that it was a very difficult

13 and challenging decision for the Defence to accept, but we are not in a

14 position to either pressure witnesses or tell them what to say. That's

15 not our -- we don't conduct ourselves that way. What we do is provide

16 the witnesses with the documents that we believe the witness will need to

17 deal with, and then of course the witnesses are free to make decisions at

18 the end of the day.

19 And so that's as much as I can afford to -- well, to discuss

20 disclose at this point in time, and I say that because much of what

21 happens while prepping Defence witnesses, in my estimation, is work

22 product, just as was noted last week with whatever the Prosecution

23 request from the State governments is deemed as work product.

24 So we will bring our next witness later on in the week. We hope

25 to have him on Monday. I gave assurances to Mr. Stringer, or his

Page 32069

1 assistant, that by the end of the day, hopefully, we would have a summary

2 for them. And I also did inform Mr. Stringer -- I gave him a verbal

3 outline of what I believe the witness will testify to; that's it, I gave

4 him the topics.

5 That's it. If there are any questions, I would be happy to

6 handle them at this point. Otherwise, I have nothing further to say on

7 the matter.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 My colleague would like to say something, but personally I would

10 like to say that while a witness may decide not to appear, but the

11 Defence might believe that the witness's testimony is of capital

12 importance, and in such situations one can always ask the Trial Chamber

13 to issue a subpoena, a summons. So that is a legal response that is

14 possible.

15 Secondly, Mr. Karnavas, as I was curious, I calculated the amount

16 of time you have used so far, and the total is 52 hours. As you have 95

17 hours, that means that you have another 43 hours for your witnesses.

18 That's what I wanted to tell you. As we have seen, a witness who is

19 examined for four hours in the examination-in-chief usually needs four

20 days of cross-examination, of Prosecution cross-examination, additional

21 questions, Judges' questions, and so on and so forth, and this means

22 that, roughly speaking, you have about ten weeks for the examination of

23 witnesses as part of your Defence of Mr. Prlic. That should take us to

24 the beginning of December, if everything goes smoothly.

25 I'll now give the floor to my colleague, who has something to

Page 32070

1 say.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: This is a technical question.

3 Mr. Karnavas, if I may draw your attention to page 5 of today's

4 transcript, lines 7 to 11, there is one word that apparently was not

5 understood, and I must confess that I do not quite understand what you

6 wanted to say; and I'm sure you would like what you were saying to be

7 understood. So I would like to give you the opportunity to explain. You

8 will have seen, probably, that it doesn't very -- isn't very clear.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Judge Trechsel, after you left, at the

11 conclusion -- at the conclusion of the events last Thursday, there was a

12 rather unpleasant scene in the courtroom. That was the spectacle of

13 which I wish to apologise for, because in my 25 years I've never had one,

14 my integrity questioned in such a fashion, and, number too, I've never

15 had to respond in like fashion to a colleague on the Defence side, so

16 that's what I was apologising for.

17 And I wanted to make sure that the Trial Chamber did not think

18 that the witness not appearing for -- to testify had anything to do with

19 the events on Thursday. That was a -- those events were mostly dealing

20 with the technique; who would go first, who would go next, when the cross

21 would take place, and can you cross your own witness before doing the

22 direct. But that had nothing to do, whatsoever, with the witness's

23 decision not to testify. And so I don't want to give the impression that

24 it was because of his discontent with any of the parties on the Defence.

25 So I just wanted to make that abundantly clear.

Page 32071

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much. You have succeeded.

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

3 greet everyone in the courtroom.

4 With regard to not hearing the witness for this week, there's

5 nothing I can add to what Ms. Karnavas had said, but I'd like to say,

6 with respect to the transcript, that with respect to the costs incurred

7 for this witness, and this has been mentioned for the second time in the

8 courtroom, the Petkovic Defence will directly contact the VWU and suggest

9 that they cover the expenses for this witness, who stayed in The Hague on

10 Friday, because we don't want the Prlic Defence to have to suffer these

11 expenses. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Mr. Karnavas, when I heard that the witness would not be

14 appearing, as I was intellectually curious, I had a look at your witness

15 list. As part of the 65 ter list or in the 65 ter list, I saw that there

16 were four witnesses, 23, 24, 25 and 26, whose names we don't have because

17 they have pseudonyms. I hope that these witnesses will appear, and in

18 order to avoid such problems you should perhaps ask all future witnesses

19 that they confirm, in writing, that they will be appearing at your

20 request, because if others change their mind, in the meantime you

21 shouldn't be placed in such a situation, which makes you waste time and

22 it could also have consequences for the Chamber's work.

23 As far as the next week is concerned, given the table you have

24 provided us with, you wanted your witness to appear as of Tuesday, and

25 the witness who was supposed to come would have continued on Monday, the

Page 32072

1 15th. But as Monday will be free, perhaps Mr. Borislav Puljic could come

2 on Monday. So that shouldn't be a problem. Very well. And then we have

3 the schedule which has already been set, and that functions.

4 I'm somewhat concerned with regard to Witness Zdravko Batinic,

5 because in the week that he'll be appearing there are only three

6 hearings, because Tuesday, the 30th, is a holiday. And you had planned

7 four hours for this witness. On the other hand, the previous witness,

8 Kozul, who should be testifying for four days, well, you planned to spend

9 three hours on this witness. It's for you to see, but perhaps it would

10 be better to have Batinic to come the preceding week and testify for four

11 days, and Kozul could testify for three days, because if we have three

12 days and four hours of cross-examination, perhaps one won't have enough

13 time to finish by Thursday.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Two points, Mr. President.

15 One, we are in a process of trying to even streamline more our

16 witnesses' testimony, and -- but we will take on board your suggestion.

17 So you should rest assured that we are taking -- factoring everything and

18 taking everything into account. So -- and sometimes we do have to work

19 around the witness's schedule, but we will do that.

20 Also, there may be an instance or two where some witnesses we

21 might choose to go through another route; that is, simply introduce a

22 statement. We're not sure yet, but that is a possibility.

23 And as far as the remaining time that we have, we appreciate the

24 Trial Chamber taking note of that, and it is our anticipation that -- and

25 hope that we will be able to reserve some of that time for the remainder

Page 32073

1 of the trial, because there may be instances where we to an examination

2 that might constitute a direct exam as opposed to cross-exam, so we are

3 mindful that the Trial Chamber will probably hold us to the same rules --

4 I see Judge Trechsel, you know, being ever fair-minded -- to make sure

5 that -- and I think that's a good rule that we all have to abide by, and

6 certainly we're going to try to do the same as the others.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I maybe just

9 correct an error in the transcript. Page 8, line 9, the word "day" is

10 erroneous, because I said that I would suggest that the VWU have the

11 Petkovic Defence cover the expenses. I didn't say that I would suggest

12 that the VWU cover those expenses.

13 Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's in the

15 transcript now.

16 We have a lot of time left. Do any other members of the Defence

17 have any issues to raise?

18 No issues? I'm looking at them, I'm imploring them, but no one

19 has anything to say.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I seem to detect a discrepancy in the

21 transcript, because on page 8, line 2, the issue of cost is attributed to

22 Ms. Nozica, and I thought I had heard that it was you, Ms. Alaburic, who

23 brought this forward. So that should be corrected.

24 MS. ALABURIC: Later on, in line 10, if you have a look, you can

25 see that it says "Ms. Alaburic," so I didn't react.

Page 32074

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is something I would

3 like to say in private session.

4 Mr. Registrar, could we move into private session.

5 [Private session]

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 32076

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: {Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as we have

3 time --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Mr. Praljak,

5 we're in open session now. Would you like us to go back into private

6 session?

7 Private session, yes.

8 [Private session]

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Page 32077

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you have

15 any issues to raise? Mr. Scott.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. My apologies to

17 Mr. Stringer.

18 I just thought that -- and all of Your Honours, good afternoon,

19 and to all of those in the courtroom.

20 While we're just dealing with a couple of housekeeping matters,

21 Your Honour, the reference was made to the possibility of changing the

22 schedule for Mr. Kozul and Mr. Batinic. Obviously, the Prosecution also

23 tries to organise its affairs and taskings, and it would be helpful --

24 I'm sure Mr. Karnavas will assist us in knowing whether there would be a

25 change in the order as soon as possible. We would appreciate that very

Page 32078

1 much.

2 Needless to say, and this is simply to note reality and not

3 casting stones, the Prosecution is well away that difficulties with

4 witnesses sometimes develop, but just as with the Defence, the Chamber

5 might imagine that a great deal of the Prosecution staff spent Friday and

6 the weekend preparing for this witness, so it's always nice to know as

7 far as advance in possible when there are witness changes.

8 Secondly, Your Honour, it just reminded me, Mr. President, when

9 you said a few moments ago that there are four witnesses on the Prlic

10 Defence witness list who so far only are provided by pseudonym, and I

11 thought it might be timely to simply indicate I think the practice has

12 been -- the practice during the Prosecution case has -- in those

13 instances where there are protected witnesses of such a nature, that a

14 minimum of 30 days' notice was given to the Chamber and to both of the

15 parties as to when those witnesses would be called and who they are, so I

16 assume the same practice will apply here.

17 Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 You are quite right, but if a witness with a pseudonym is coming

20 in two months, then the Defence will let you know one month ahead, in

21 accordance with the Rules and the jurisprudence.

22 Isn't that right, Mr. Karnavas? I'm not mistaken in saying this?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: You're absolutely right, Mr. President, and we

24 will -- we will look at our list and provide the information not only in

25 a timely fashion, but hopefully well in advance for the Prosecution to

Page 32079

1 adequately prepare itself. We don't pride ourselves in trying to play

2 games in court and hide the ball. That's not how to win cases, and

3 that's not how to get to the truth. But I take Mr. Scott's position.

4 I think he does have a point, that there this should be made aware of as

5 soon as practical.

6 And as far as witness changes, as soon as we know, we let them

7 know, because we do understand the importance of preparing and how

8 time-consuming it must be. And as I indicated, with this particular

9 witness it wasn't until 11.30. Up until that point, everybody was

10 working on this team at full speed ahead. So -- and I can honestly say

11 in the last three days prior to coming here to court, the team spent

12 approximately 80 to 90 hours preparing. So that doesn't count copying,

13 sorting out, that's just the last three days. That gives you an

14 indication of the time that's spent.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

17 I see that we have covered all issues. There appear to be no

18 other. So I invite everyone to come back for the hearing next Monday,

19 which will given at 2.15, and in the meantime I wish everyone success in

20 their work. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.55 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

23 September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.