081016ED

Page 33294

1 when that document was shown to you the other day and you opined that it

2 appeared from the document that the HVO did not receive 20 per cent of

3 the meals along this 80 per cent/20 per cent split that we were talking

4 about earlier this week, let me just ask you a couple more questions

5 about that.

6 Prior to the time that Mr. Karnavas showed you that document,

7 1D 01449, had you seen it before?

8 A. Before he showed it to me I -- I had never seen it. I had never

9 seen it.

10 Q. And in fact, sir, do you have any personal knowledge, and I'm not

11 asking you to speculate, guess, or state your belief, I'm asking do you

12 have any personal knowledge that the HVO did not, in fact, receive 20 per

13 cent of the meals?

14 A. Since this equal treatment of the HVO in terms of logistics was a

15 constant problem, I can't claim that I know specifically about those

16 2.500 meals. Maybe I didn't even attend that session. If you asked me

17 whether I attended or not, I wouldn't be able to recall.

18 I cannot remember, although I was a member of the Presidency

19 then, whether I was there when the decision was made on the 2.500 meals,

20 but there was a constant problem enforcing this agreement that 80 per

21 cent should go to the army and 20 per cent to the HVO.

22 Q. So your answer, sir -- excuse me, but our time, again, is

23 limited, as you know. So my answer to your question, sir, is that you

24 have no personal knowledge that the HVO did not, in fact, receive meals

25 at that time.

Page 33295

1 A. I have general knowledge that it did not, but I cannot confirm

2 this specific example, whether it fit into the general picture, because

3 you can see that it was a problem for many other documents. To me it

4 seems irrelevant whether in this specific case it happened that way or

5 not. We have other, many other documents that there was a constant

6 problem with the logistical support to the HVO.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... how your testimony is

8 received and understood by the Judges in this case? Sir?

9 A. Yes?

10 Q. Now, going back to the general --

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just

12 intervene. The record says that the witness said yes, but the witness

13 said yes with a question mark as far as his intonation is concerned.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say yes in confirmation.

15 I said yes, expecting a question.

16 MR. SCOTT:

17 Q. Well, I put a question to you, sir, and I'll put it again. You

18 said -- you said something about being -- it seems irrelevant to me.

19 Sir, when you gave that testimony -- see that's my point, sir. When you

20 gave that testimony on Monday, the impression you left with the Judges is

21 that you had -- you had affirmed as if that's something that had really

22 happened, that you had knowledge of that, and now you're saying it's

23 irrelevant to you whether that's true or not?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I'm sorry to

25 interrupt you, but you can't say that the impression that you gave to the

Page 33296

1 Judges, because you don't know what impression he gave us.

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will say that that is the impression

3 that I perceive that he tried to create and I think I can put that

4 question to the witness. I'm commenting on the witness's testimony and I

5 think I can pursue that. You're right, Your Honour, I can't get into

6 your head, but I think I can put the question to the witness, and he just

7 said it was irrelevant to him.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: He didn't say. Your Honours, I don't want to be

9 disruptive. He didn't say that, and I believe the question is

10 argumentative in nature. So I mean -- if we were in a -- before a jury,

11 this question would be struck down with lightning speed.

12 MR. SCOTT: Well, we're not in front of a jury, Mr. Karnavas.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Because it's argumentative.

14 MR. SCOTT: No, it's not. Mr. President, I'm probing the

15 credibility of this witness and I -- it's my perception as one example of

16 an occasion in which a document was put to him that he now tells us he

17 had never seen before and he was asked to opine on it. Now we know that

18 he has no personal knowledge of it and then comes back and says but it's

19 really irrelevant to him.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: The question was, so are you saying this is

21 irrelevant. He already answered the question. Now I think the point has

22 been made and the gentleman should just move on. He's made his point.

23 MR. SCOTT: I will move on, Mr. President, because I don't want

24 to waste my time -- more of my time on this.

25 Q. Sir, if you can go next to --

Page 33297

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's one question by a

2 Judge.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott. Excuse me. Can

4 we just go back, because you moved very quickly to this document, but I

5 wanted to go back to P 10669 just for a second.

6 Witness, on Tuesday when we were looking at this decision on war

7 tax for citizens, document 1D 01460, I had put a question to you. I had

8 asked you whether the municipality employees or yourself were paid and,

9 if so, in what currency. You answered that municipal employees were not

10 paid at all.

11 Earlier on this morning when we were looking at P 10669 regarding

12 the Mostar police, we found your name in the list of those who were paid,

13 but you explained and I understood your explanation that you were not

14 paid as a policeman but for work that you did with regard to the

15 construction of a road.

16 So let me go back to the question I put on Tuesday. You were

17 paid for this work. So in what currency were you paid?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wish to remind

19 everyone that I hadn't been in the municipality as of the 29th October

20 1992. So I wasn't working in the municipality at all from that time on,

21 but I worked in the civilian HVO doing economic development, road

22 construction, sometimes paid in Croatian dinars, sometimes in German

23 marks. My remuneration would be partly paid in Croatian dinars, partly

24 in German marks one month, another month it would be only German marks,

25 the third month it would be just Croatian dinars. But I did not do that

Page 33298

1 in 1992. In fact, I started in the end of 1992.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed. I can

3 see this document dealing with war taxes. I see the date, 4th of

4 December, 1992. Indeed that the Mostar police, we have the date of the

5 2nd of April, 1993. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Scott.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to know whether there is a mistake

8 in the record. Mr. Karnavas has very vigorously said the witness had

9 never pretended that the issue was irrelevant. I find on page 10 of

10 today's record, lines 21 to 23, the following sentence: "To me it seems

11 irrelevant whether in this specific case it happened that way or not."

12 Now, was that wrong? Did you say something different, Witness?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say that I

14 was present at the session when this decision was made. What I did say

15 was that this merely confirms the discrimination of the HVO throughout

16 this period in a number of cases. This is just an illustration, an

17 example. I thought it was just irrelevant whether I was aware of this

18 one single case when I was aware of the practice that was prevalent

19 throughout the year. That's what I meant.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Mr. Scott.

21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

22 Q. Sir, just to go back then to the series of events that we were

23 talking about through the second half of 1992 yesterday, and I showed you

24 a number of documents in which I pointed out to you that on a number of

25 occasions the Muslim representatives repeatedly took the position and

Page 33299

1 communicated their position that three ethnic entities were not

2 acceptable, doing things, arranging things on a national basis were not

3 acceptable, for instance, with the military, that they should be based on

4 territorial units and not on ethnicity and I put those question to you.

5 And now following from that, isn't it a fact, sir, that it was because of

6 the Muslims' refusal to go along with Herceg-Bosna and the HVO and the

7 fact that the local HVO leadership apparently had not been able to make

8 that happen, that a number of the Herceg-Bosna HVO leadership were

9 unhappy with the Jablanica HVO civilian and military leadership as it

10 existed at that time, and there was calls for these people to be removed?

11 In other words, that those people, if I can put it in a bit of the

12 vernacular, had not gotten the job done. They had not achieved the

13 Herceg-Bosna agenda. Isn't that what happened at the end of 1992?

14 A. Could you please clarify a little bit? Who called for the

15 civilian leadership of the HVO in Jablanica to be removed? Who made this

16 demand, because I didn't understand that part.

17 Q. Let's look at -- well, let's make it a bit more concrete by

18 looking at Exhibit P 00581 in your binder, please.

19 A. Where is it approximately?

20 Q. It's the seventh document in the binder, sir, but if you look,

21 sir, by the numbers, you should be able to find all the documents.

22 This is a communication from the military police -- excuse me.

23 My apology. The brigade commander of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade dated

24 the 15th of October, 1992, and during the period that we've been

25 discussing since yesterday. It's addressed to a number of other military

Page 33300

1 police units, Konjic, Jablanica, Mostar, et cetera. And the commander

2 says: "This is to inform you that as of the 17th of October, 1992, all

3 persons in the territory of Konjic and Jablanica that are in possession

4 of a pass allowing them freedom of movement throughout the territory of

5 the HZ HB and the Republic of Croatia shall have their passes

6 authenticated with the Herceg Stjepan Brigade's stamp."

7 Now if we skip a paragraph, the commander then goes on to say:

8 "The reason for taking these measures is abuse of other stamps and they

9 refer to both civilian and military segment of this territory."

10 Now, here again it appears to be that it is the HVO that is

11 asserting the authority to permit or not permit movement in these

12 municipalities, Konjic and Jablanica. Do you recall that at the time,

13 sir?

14 A. Esteemed Prosecutor, you asked me a little while ago -- or,

15 rather, you wanted me to confirm that there was this initiative to remove

16 the civilian segment of the HVO in Jablanica from office because they

17 were not doing their job right, and now you are showing me a military

18 document, and I can't really understand what it has to do with what

19 you've asked me, and I don't see any civilian HVO mentioned anywhere.

20 Q. If you look, sir, in the -- if you look in the third paragraph

21 that I read out loud to you a moment ago, it says: "The reason for

22 taking these measures is abuse of other stamps and they refer to both

23 civilian and military segment of this territory. This report has been

24 endorsed with Herceg Stjepan Brigade's stamp so that you may see what it

25 looks like."

Page 33301

1 If that's not clear enough to you, sir, let's move from that.

2 I gave you that as an introduction. Let's move to the next

3 document, P 00582. It should be the very next document in your binder.

4 P 00582 by the same commander the very next day the 16th of October,

5 1992. And on that occasion, the same commander writes to Mate Boban,

6 Jadranko Prlic, Bruno Stojic, Andjelko Siljeg, and repeats some of the

7 actions that he is taking in the area: "I'm hereby informing you that on

8 16 October 1992, I was forced, due to their failure to carry out orders,

9 to disband the 3rd Battalion command from the Herceg Stjepan Brigade,

10 Konjic, as well as the HVO Municipal Staff command, Jablanica.

11 "In line with orders issued verbally by Mr. Bruno Stojic, I

12 issued an order in writing that all stamps from the areas of Jablanica

13 and Konjic should be withdrawn and the stamp of the Herceg Stjepan

14 Brigade from Konjic should be regarded as the sole valid one."

15 Skipping a paragraph: "It is necessary in this situation to

16 appoint without delay a new HVO Municipal Staff command and its president

17 as well as other military and civilian bodies in Jablanica. We therefore

18 kindly ask you," Mr. Boban, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic, and Mr. Siljeg, "to

19 take appropriate action on your part so that this can be done as soon as

20 possible."

21 Now, you knew, didn't you, that there was dissatisfaction among

22 the HVO, that some of the local military and civilian HVO leadership or

23 officials at that time were viewed as being too cooperative with the

24 Muslims. They had not been able to get Herceg-Bosna established in

25 Jablanica, and people like this commander were acting to have them

Page 33302

1 removed and replaced; correct?

2 A. That's absolutely not correct, sir. At that time I was still the

3 president of the Executive Board of the Jablanica municipality, and I was

4 not in the civilian HVO, and I did not know about this dissatisfaction,

5 although I did see people around, and I was not aware of this initiative

6 that you're talking about to remove people from office, to have them

7 replaced. So I cannot really confirm this at all.

8 Q. Sir, as has been mentioned already today, I regret needing to

9 raise the topic of your brother Marko, but I must in this particular

10 context.

11 What was the position of your brother Marko Zelenika in the HVO

12 in October 1992?

13 A. My brother was the commander of the Mijat Tomic Battalion, which

14 was active in the Jablanica municipality, and it was part of this

15 brigade, the HVO Brigade Herceg Stjepan that was headquartered in Konjic.

16 He was the commander of the battalions from sometime in July 1992 until

17 the fall of 1992. But please do not ask me to give you a specific date.

18 Sometime in the fall, October or maybe November. I know that this was

19 roughly the time period, from the summer until the fall of 1992. So he

20 was a commander in the HVO.

21 Q. Was that the 3rd --

22 A. Of a battalion.

23 Q. Excuse me. Was that the 3rd Battalion of the Herceg Stjepan

24 Brigade?

25 A. Well, I don't know the number designation, but it was designated

Page 33303

1 as Mijat Tomic. Now, I don't know what the numbers were, the 1st, the

2 2nd, the 3rd --

3 Q. Sir, again --

4 A. -- but that was its distinguishing feature, its name.

5 Q. Sir, again with my regret for having to raise it, but isn't it a

6 fact that your brother was removed from that position in about January of

7 1993 because he was perceived to be too cooperative with the Muslims and

8 was removed from his position?

9 A. That's absolutely not correct. I will not get emotional as I was

10 when I read the text and I saw his signature, and that really moved me.

11 What you said is a heinous lie. My brother -- well, it was in the fall

12 or maybe sometime in January around New Year's Day, he got paralysis.

13 One side of his face got paralysed so he went to the hospital in Split

14 for treatment. And yet now we can see that some people tried to foist

15 those terrible lies on you and now you come here and you present them in

16 court here.

17 Q. Well, whatever physical problems he may or may not have had at

18 that time, sir, and again if that's the case, I regret that.

19 Sir, around that time, at the end of 1992 or early 1993, he was

20 removed, perhaps it was coincidental, perhaps not, he was removed from

21 his HVO position; correct?

22 A. He was not removed, sir, unless there is a document from his

23 superiors to that effect. If you have a document to that effect and if

24 you show it to me, then I will agree with you, but I claim that he was

25 not removed. This is the first time that I hear anything of the sort.

Page 33304

1 Q. Now, moving forward, sir, the efforts of the -- of the

2 Herceg-Bosna authorities and the HVO to again assert control over the

3 Jablanica area, that continued through January, February, March of 1993,

4 didn't it?

5 A. Absolutely not. As far as Jablanica is concerned, there were no

6 such efforts at all.

7 Q. For example, around -- in early January 1993, someone who the

8 Chamber has heard, a General Daidza, came to the centre of Jablanica town

9 with HVO soldiers, kind of flexing their muscles in the area; correct?

10 Do you remember that?

11 A. I don't recall that, but General Daidza led both the HVO soldiers

12 and the BH army soldiers. He had both under his command. I never saw

13 him lead only the HVO troops.

14 Q. And in the middle of January 1993, and we're not going to go to

15 all of these documents because we don't have time, but the Chamber will

16 recall, and others in the courtroom, that it was on the 15th of January,

17 1993, that we had certain actions, a decision by Jadranko Prlic, an order

18 by Bruno Stojic imposing a deadline on the 20th of January, 1993, for the

19 ABiH units and areas that were then being called Vance-Owen provinces 3,

20 8, and 10 to subordinate themselves to the HVO or to leave the areas.

21 Now, did that come to your attention around this time?

22 A. Sir, I'm not the right person to ask this question. You cannot

23 ask me -- ask me this question.

24 Q. So this is another one of these topics that you didn't -- you

25 didn't know anything about, these high-level orders coming down from the

Page 33305

1 president of the HVO and the head of the HVO defence department? Never

2 came to your attention?

3 A. I never heard of it, and I find it strange that you apparently

4 don't realise who I am.

5 Q. And if you can go, please, to P 01164. P 01164. Sir, this is a

6 document issued by -- an order by the HVO military police in Jablanica on

7 the 16th of January, 1993, the day after the Prlic and Stojic documents,

8 and it says in the top: "Pursuant to the order of the Jablanica HVO and

9 the order by the head of the defence department and the military police

10 of the HZ HB, the Jablanica military police is obliged to carry out the

11 following." And I'm not certainly going to go through all of this but

12 number 1: "Population of the Jablanica municipality are allowed to leave

13 the municipality with the appropriate approvals issued by," then it lists

14 the people who can do that. Number 4 [sic]: "The accompanying

15 documentation for arms, military equipment and ammunition imported from

16 the Republic of Croatia or another country" -- excuse me.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to object

19 to the part of the question where the Prosecutor establishes a link

20 between the previous document by Mr. Stojic with this document. In the

21 preamble of this order, which is signed by Mr. Livaja, there is no

22 mention of the reference. So you cannot really see from the text that it

23 had anything to do with the previous order, and the question by

24 Mr. Prosecutor goes as follows: "One day after the order by Mr. Stojic."

25 I think it is very difficult, in fact impossible to establish a link

Page 33306

1 between the documents, both on the basis of the preamble and the text

2 itself, although the Prosecution is apparently trying to do just that.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, everything I have said is based

4 absolutely on the evidence. On the 15th of January, the head of the HVO

5 department of defence, Mr. Bruno Stojic, in document number P 01140

6 issued his decision to enforce the Prlic decision of the same date, the

7 15th of January, 1993. I turn to this document and it says, and I didn't

8 make it up, it says: "Pursuant to the order by the Jablanica HVO and the

9 order by the head of the defence department and the military police of

10 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna."

11 So I leave it to Your Honours to draw your own inferences and put

12 the evidence together and draw your conclusions, but it's certainly fair

13 for me to put the question to the witness.

14 Q. I was reading, sir, before I was interrupted, on point number 3:

15 "The accompanying documentation for arms, military equipment and

16 ammunition imported from the Republic of Croatia or another country that

17 needs to cross over check-points and the municipality of Jablanica should

18 be signed by the head of the defence department of Herceg-Bosna, HZ HB,

19 Bruno, probably Stojic," and I leave it to the courtroom to look at the

20 document. I don't think it's as illegible as in this particular instance

21 the translator might have. "Bruno Stojic, the chief of the HVO main

22 staff, Milivoj," and I submit that the original shows "Petkovic," et

23 cetera, et cetera.

24 Now, sir, this is a document that was issued on the ground in

25 Jablanica affecting what was happening on the ground in Jablanica in

Page 33307

1 mid-January 1993.

2 Did you see these things -- these sorts of things taking place?

3 Did you see efforts to regulate, by the HVO, who could leave and move

4 about the municipality?

5 A. Well, this was not an effort only on the part of the HVO. I know

6 that even before this time an agreement was in place whilst the

7 check-points were set up that their purpose was to control the traffic of

8 passengers, people, and goods. So what you read to me in this item

9 merely serves to establish control on the passage of persons and goods.

10 This is nothing peculiar. The BH army did this as much as the HVO. So

11 this is not strange at all.

12 Q. Not strange at all. So you confirm that this is what was

13 happening at the time; correct?

14 A. Yes, I do confirm that the traffic of people and goods was

15 controlled.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I believe that there is a mistake

17 here. I hope it's accidental. The document does not know -- does not

18 talk about the passage of people and goods and neither does the previous

19 document that speaks about the replacement of stamps, because the

20 Prosecutor skipped the part where it says that stamps were abused from

21 the previous document. So could we please read what it says in the

22 order.

23 It is indicated that they can move but only pursuant to an

24 approval issued by the Jablanica HVO with the signature and stamp of

25 Matan Zaric. So here we're not talking about the HVO controlling people

Page 33308

1 going in and out, but this is all about the stamp. The reason is because

2 the Prosecutor, I believe it was accidental, in his haste forgot to read

3 the part of the notice that was sent to Mr. Boban, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic,

4 and Mr. Sagolj where it says that the stamps are being abused. The whole

5 story here is about the abuse of stamps, the stamps and signatures that

6 make it possible for somebody to get in and out. This is not about the

7 HVO establishing control over who gets in and out of the municipality. I

8 think that this is what arises from the document if you read it in its

9 entirety.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11 continues] ... Mr. Coric.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would

13 like to say something very briefly. If I was following, perhaps this is

14 a problem of translation, when the Prosecutor asked the question, he

15 referred to the previous question and documents that pertain to Jablanica

16 and movements in Jablanica. Now, since I don't have the right to

17 redirect and although in direct there was no discussion about military

18 police and these matters, I would just like to say that we heard

19 Safet Idrizovic, a member of the BH army, here in court, and this goes to

20 the credibility of this witness because the Prosecutor obviously is

21 trying to impeach the witness.

22 Witness Safet Idrizovic at page 9833 of the transcript confirmed

23 the very thing that this witness has been saying. He talked about the

24 check-points and about the joint patrols. In February and March 1993

25 those mixed patrols were composed of the BH army, BH MUP, and the HVO

Page 33309

1 military police. So in March and February 1993, they had those joint

2 patrols. The witness confirmed it, and a document PD 0227 [as

3 interpreted] was admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can continue.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, we were about to turn --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. SCOTT: -- the significance of all that. The documents speak

9 for themselves and I think I accurately presented them to the Chamber, so

10 I'm not really sure what all that was about.

11 Q. But in any event, sir, let's move forward to the appoint of

12 Mr. Cibo, who you've talked about quite extensively.

13 Do I understand your position on this to be, sir, that there was

14 some sort of a -- my -- my characterisation, but some sort of a Muslim

15 plan or programme by which Mr. Cibo was sent and controlled by

16 Mr. Izetbegovic in Sarajevo to carry out some particular agenda, if you

17 will, in the Jablanica area? Is that basically what you're telling us?

18 A. Well, I didn't see the plan. What I did see were some

19 consequences of the plan. But after the war, after my detention, I got

20 hold of some documents, and I realised that all those documents taken

21 together show that there was this plan that Mr. Cibo should come to

22 Konjic and Jablanica to stir trouble among Croats and Muslims and to

23 bring war into Konjic, Jablanica, and Herzegovina as a whole.

24 Q. All right. Well, sir, if I -- again if I misspoke or misdirected

25 you, I apologise. I didn't say if you saw a plan in terms of a written

Page 33310

1 plan. I was just trying to understand. It's your basic position that

2 Mr. Cibo was sent by Sarajevo with a programme. That's your position;

3 correct?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And is it your position -- or it has been stated in this

6 courtroom that Sarajevo was cut off. Can you tell us how it was that

7 these communications or coordinations were taking place between what was

8 happening in Jablanica and the direction that you said was coming from

9 Sarajevo?

10 A. Well, the communication went underneath the tunnel that was dug

11 beneath the runway at Sarajevo airport. That was in autumn 1993. That

12 was the only way in which it was possible to establish this communication

13 from Jablanica to Sarajevo.

14 Q. And so you're telling the Chamber that this programme was being

15 carried out and coordinated by Sarajevo with Mr. Cibo and others in

16 Jablanica, and the sole way that that was being done was by

17 communications carried through the tunnel at the Sarajevo airport. Is

18 that what you're telling the Judges?

19 A. Well, I cannot now say that it was impossible to travel in some

20 other way, perhaps by helicopter. What I do know, however, is that there

21 was this tunnel. It is possible that some people travelled by helicopter

22 too.

23 Q. You've then gone on to say, if I understand your position, that

24 Mr. Izetbegovic appointed Cibo. I think what you've said in your

25 testimony in the last couple of days was contrary to -- something to the

Page 33311

1 effect contrary to the laws and practices. Is that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Can you tell the Judges, in particular, the particular aspects in

4 which you say that Mr. Cibo's appointment was contrary to law and

5 customary practice at that time?

6 A. I do believe I can.

7 Q. Please.

8 A. The regulations, the laws regulating the procedure for the

9 appointment of the local authorities in the Republic of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina that were in force stipulated that in order for somebody to

11 be elected the president of the municipality and for members of the

12 Municipal Assembly to be elected only persons who had permanent place of

13 residence in that particular municipality could be put on the slate. And

14 based on the election, those representative bodies in the municipality

15 was set up. They were called the municipal assemblies. And in the case

16 of Jablanica, in our case, the Assembly had 35 representatives. And then

17 at a session of this Assembly, the president was elected by a majority of

18 votes. And in this manner, in 1992, Sefer Hamdo was appointed or elected

19 the president of the Municipal Assembly by a majority of votes. And then

20 later on in 1992, he was replaced by Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic who was also a

21 representative, one of the elected representatives. So it was

22 impossible. The law did not provide for a possibility for somebody from

23 another municipality on anyone's decree, on anyone's decision, to be

24 appointed the president of the Municipal Assembly.

25 So I can only repeat what I've already said. This was simply

Page 33312

1 unconstitutional, unlawful, illegal. This was a political and a legal

2 precedent. And Muslims in Konjic and Jablanica opposed it most of all,

3 and everybody realised that this was chaos. It was a chaotic situation.

4 Anything went in that state, because you could bring in people from other

5 municipalities to be presidents of the municipality -- of another

6 municipality.

7 Q. Was the Municipal Assembly in Jablanica meeting in March, April

8 1993?

9 A. I was not in the municipality then, but I don't believe they

10 convened.

11 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that especially in wartime or crisis

12 situations much of decisions -- many decisions like these get made by

13 political agreement?

14 A. This was not a political agreement. It was a case of imposing

15 someone against everyone's political will. You could see that those

16 people in Konjic were up in arms against it. This decision to replace

17 Mr. Ivkovic came to Jablanica with the signature of Mr. Izetbegovic, and

18 I was invited to the SDA and they showed it to me. It was not along the

19 Presidency line. It was along the SDA line to replace Nijaz Ivkovic.

20 We asked the Muslims in the SDA board, "What are you going to do

21 about this?" They said, "This is not going to pass, no way. We are

22 going to oppose this."

23 Q. Sir. Sir, the position you held in Jablanica municipality

24 between April 1992 and the end of October 1992, you did not hold that

25 position lawfully, isn't that true, because you were never approved by

Page 33313

1 the Assembly? You told us that in your testimony on Monday. You got

2 your position as a result of a political agreement which was never

3 approved by the Assembly.

4 A. That's something entirely different, and I can explain.

5 Q. Let's go, please, to Exhibit P 10668. P 10668.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: If the gentleman wishes to explain, he should be

7 given the opportunity to explain.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott. He wants to

9 provide an explanation.

10 What did you mean to say, Witness?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The fact

12 is the Prosecutor tried to compare two completely incomparable things.

13 I came to the position of the president of the Executive Board of

14 Jablanica on the 11th of May, 1992, based on a decision by the

15 Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff was an operative body which under the

16 peculiar circumstances of the immediate threat of war had all the powers

17 of the Assembly, the same powers as the Assembly. Anything that the

18 Crisis Staff decided was legal, and once an opportunity arises, the

19 Crisis Staff was under obligation to submit it's decisions to the

20 Assembly.

21 The first discussion of my appointment was sometime in June, and

22 it was at a time when the Crisis Staff filed to the Assembly all the

23 decisions, appointments, et cetera, it had enacted between April and

24 June. Some of those were verified by the Assembly, others were rejected.

25 Nobody said I was an illegal appointment, an unlawful

Page 33314

1 appointment. I was chosen by a body which had the legal right and basis

2 to appoint me. So my case cannot be compared in any way to the case of

3 Mr. Cibo who was practically imposed against everyone's will.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. I won't repeat and go back to your testimony on Monday about

7 that. Everyone will have that. Because that's not what you said at the

8 time. Sir, let me ask you to go to P 10668. P 10668. Toward the back

9 of the binder, please.

10 I think Mr. Karnavas may have shown you a similar document by

11 a -- with a Defence number, so I don't think it will be new to you, but

12 it's also been -- well, in any event. P 10668.

13 Sir, this appears to be the decision of the, among other things,

14 appointing Mr. Cibo in Article XV to -- and concerning Jablanica, and

15 Article XVI concerning Konjic; correct?

16 A. XV and XVI, correct.

17 Q. All right. Just so there's no misunderstanding, if we go back to

18 the top of the first page of the document, this reflects that this action

19 was taken at the session of the 13th of March, 1993, the Presidency, I

20 emphasise the word "Presidency," not President Izetbegovic. "The

21 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted the following." Do you see

22 that?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And if you could next go to Exhibit P 10667. It should be very

25 close to the one you were just looking at. P 10667 is a decision in

Page 33315

1 which Mr. Cibo was dismissed from that position or those

2 responsibilities, and that document --

3 A. Just a minute. I haven't found it yet.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: The one before.

5 MR. SCOTT:

6 Q. It should be the one right before it, sir. They're in numerical

7 order.

8 A. 667, here it is.

9 Q. All right. And, sir, would you agree with me that this action

10 was taken, and I'm again directing your attention to the preamble, if you

11 will. This was taken action at a session on 14 December 1993, the

12 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued the following

13 decision, and then et cetera. It speaks for itself, giving recognition

14 to Mr. Cibo and essentially dismissing him from those responsibilities.

15 Do you see that?

16 A. I do.

17 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me just one moment, Your Honour.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. SCOTT:

20 Q. All right. I think for the interest of time -- thank you, sir.

21 I'd like to direct your attention next to the topic -- yes?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. There is a problem

23 of semantics, because the Prosecutor has just said that he is dismissed

24 of his duties, dismissing in English. He was dismissed. But there's no

25 mention of dismissing in the document. It says that the work is being

Page 33316

1 ended because the reasons that had been that he was appointed no longer

2 are present.

3 So in your view, Witness, is it that he was dismissed because he

4 had made a mistake, or he no longer does the job because there is no

5 reason for him to continue doing the job? What is your view on this? Or

6 maybe you have no opinion whatsoever, I don't know.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not dismissed in that sense,

8 Your Honour. He was relieved of his duties because he has done the work

9 he was supposed to do. He had organised in Jablanica a dozen of camps

10 through which more than 3.500 Croat civilians and defenders passed

11 through. He organised the ethnic cleansing of 11.500 Croats in the

12 territory of Jablanica and further afield. He organised the persecution

13 of Croat civilian population, and that's why the reasons for his

14 existence in Jablanica ceased.

15 One more thing is said here in paragraph I. A term is used,

16 "Commissioner," and the municipality of Prozor is mentioned. But you

17 have seen in these documents, although from my point of view they are

18 unlawful and unconstitutional, that those who enacted them thought

19 otherwise. Dr. Cibo was not, according to these documents, in charge of

20 Prozor municipality because I personally read in Muslim press that Cibo

21 was the president for Jablanica and for Konjic and for 20 per cent of the

22 territory of Prozor. So that's my position.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Sorry.

25 Q. I'd like to turn now to the question of -- well, some of the

Page 33317

1 questions that you -- things that you say took place in Jablanica in or

2 around the period of April, May thereafter.

3 One question I'd like to touch on just before we go forward. You

4 talked about the electrical power being disconnected to some parts of

5 Jablanica municipality. On that general topic, sir, isn't it correct

6 that it was the HVO who cut off the electrical and water supply from the

7 west to Sarajevo and Konjic during the war?

8 A. Which year are you talking about? You said April, May.

9 Q. Let me come back to you. I was going to turn, sir, to the time

10 that some things happened and through the summer when you're talking

11 about -- when you were mobilised for labour, and I did jump to that, sir,

12 you're absolutely right, but you had also -- before I got to that -- what

13 I was doing was amending my sequence, sir, so if I misled you I'm sorry.

14 Before I get to that I would like to come to your testimony about

15 electrical power, because you raised that and were talking about -- and

16 how it was cut off and how Izetbegovic supposedly said something about

17 it.

18 Isn't it correct, sir, that it was the HVO who cut off the

19 electrical and water supply coming from the west of Sarajevo, cut off the

20 electrical and water supply to Sarajevo and Konjic during the war?

21 A. Sir, I lived in Jablanica. I cannot talk about electricity and

22 water in Sarajevo. I can tell you about the electrical power and water

23 in Jablanica if you have anything to ask me about that.

24 Q. Jablanica town had electrical power through the war, throughout

25 the war? Is that right? I'm not saying there may have not been a day

Page 33318

1 here and a day there, but generally had power throughout the war?

2 A. Correct. Jablanica town.

3 Q. And the Croat-controlled areas of Jablanica municipality, they

4 had electrical power during most of the war. Perhaps not from Jablanica,

5 but by one means or another that they were provided with electrical power

6 during most of the war; correct?

7 A. Unfortunately, that area where the Croats were under the control

8 of the HVO did not have a single day during the war and quite a long time

9 after the war when they had electricity. Twenty-two months in total. We

10 organised another supply of electrical power through another channel from

11 the hydro power station elsewhere, because they -- it was no longer

12 available from Jablanica.

13 Q. When was the power arranged from the hydro power station

14 elsewhere?

15 A. That arrangement was made -- in fact, it began in 1994 after I

16 personally came to meetings in Jablanica from Mostar and begged, implored

17 people in the Muslim leadership to release electricity. And when I was

18 absolutely certain, when they convinced me that they wouldn't do it, I

19 had no choice but to pass on their decision. And we had to make a

20 decision to build a completely new transition line from the hydro power

21 station Rama.

22 Q. All right. Let's go on to your mobilisation for work. And

23 again, sir, as I touched -- as I get into this topic, I'm sorry if it

24 might seem like prying to you, but sometimes in these cases we pry a bit

25 more than perhaps we would in everyday, polite conversation.

Page 33319

1 You've talked about some sort of a medical element or disability.

2 Can you -- is there a particular diagnosis that you were ever given for

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And can you tell us what it is, please?

6 A. It was osteomyelitis femoris dex. In a normal language it's

7 inflammation of the femur. I suffered from that for the first time as a

8 boy. I was hospitalised for the same reason in Sarajevo, in Kraljevica,

9 and later in Croatia. Because of that condition I also changed school.

10 I had originally started training for electricians, but I did my military

11 service and after serving in the army in 1973 my situation deteriorated.

12 I was sent to the military medical panel in Mostar. They decided

13 I was no longer fit to serve any further in the army. They said I should

14 avoid long walks, standing for a long time. I was unfit for marching or

15 guard duty. And based on that, the secretariat for general

16 administration in Jablanica adopted in 1973 the decision that I was unfit

17 for military service, so I was assigned to civilian protection, and I was

18 the commander of the Municipal Board for civilian protection.

19 With such a medical file and with the decision from the

20 municipality, that same Secretariat for National Defence summoned me 20

21 years later to take a pick and an axe and a shovel and report for duty.

22 I rejected that. They sent the police to fetch me by force and bring me

23 there, and I showed the relevant decision to the secretary of the

24 secretariat, and I told him, "Mr. Omer, you have this same decision in

25 your archive. How could you send me the summons, the call-up?" He told

Page 33320

1 me, "None of that that was issued earlier no longer applies. There will

2 be a revision, but until the revision you have to respond to the

3 call-up."

4 And I went every day to dig trenches, to fell trees, cut timber.

5 And when the invitation to revision arrived, the doctors at the hospital

6 didn't even look at me, because Cibo ordered them to disregard the oath

7 of Hippocrates. Now that Cibo was there, the doctors only had to obey.

8 I was before a panel of seven medical doctors. All of them had given the

9 oath and they had to disregard it and dismiss all medical reasons, and I

10 had to go to work.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: It may be of some assistance, Your Honour, given

12 the question what he suffered. The gentleman did provide to the

13 Prosecution back in 1996 a document which has the ERN 00388360. We could

14 put it on the ELMO, and it quite clearly states what the gentleman --

15 it's a medical report. It's the actual medical report, and perhaps this

16 could be shown to the gentleman. We could put it on the ELMO and it

17 could be seen that this is from 22/11/1973, and it does have the Latin

18 term for the actual diagnosis.

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, my question isn't if that's the case at

20 all. I'm simply was -- I thought it might be interesting since we've

21 heard all this testimony but we'd never actually gotten the underlying

22 information. I just simply thought that was something that we might want

23 for the record, but I never put into question the 1973 diagnosis, if you

24 will.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: We may need to get an IC number for this, too,

Page 33321

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have an IC number,

3 Mr. Registrar, for this medical document.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be IC number 863. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT:

6 Q. The board, sir, that you said, and I think it's probably implied

7 but again because of just --

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm a bit puzzled by the Defence during

11 cross-examination introducing a document, but I think it would be the

12 least that the witness looks at it and confirms that it is what it's

13 purported to be.

14 Usher, can you show it to the witness, please.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Judge Trechsel is right.

16 Now we're going to waste some minutes on this.

17 Is this your medical report?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the finding of the

19 medical panel. And I told you in my own words what it says with 80 per

20 cent accuracy.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Scott, it was

22 so obvious that I hadn't even thought that it was necessary to ask a

23 question.

24 MR. SCOTT: That was my reaction as well, Your Honour.

25 Q. The board that made the original decision in 1973, because you

Page 33322

1 referred to -- you were then named or made the head of the

2 Civilian Protection Board, if I understood you correctly. Maybe I got it

3 wrong. But I understood that you said you were made the head or referred

4 to the Civilian Protection Board back at that time, and I take it that

5 was also Jablanica municipality?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. All right. And if I can ask you, please, to look at P 10672 in

8 your binder. P 10672.

9 A. 0672, or 672 are the last numbers.

10 Q. 10672.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, sir, this particular document is dated the 25th of June,

13 1993, titled "General mobilisation call-up." And says: "For the purpose

14 of the replenishment of the municipality work unit," at least that's the

15 way it's been translated, "conscript Mirko Zelenika is hereby called up

16 to report to the terrace outside of the municipal -- municipality

17 building ..." et cetera, et cetera.

18 Now, is this the kind of document that you received around this

19 time that you've been telling us about, sometime during 1993 to report

20 for a work detail?

21 A. Sir, I only took one summons. It doesn't mean I was called up on

22 the 26th June for the first time. I was called up for the first time

23 back on the 15th of April. But I saved just one call-up paper as an

24 example of the abuse of the work obligation. In fact, it was forced

25 labour. And for these reasons that I stated, I was not liable to be

Page 33323

1 called up --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. -- for work obligation, let alone for forced labour.

4 Q. You're jumping ahead of me. You're assuming things that I'm not

5 putting to you. I didn't suggest this was the first time, but is this an

6 example of the kind of document that you received in connection with

7 being called up for work?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. And did you receive such a document on -- on only one occasion or

10 more than that and, if so, approximately how many times did you receive

11 the document? I mean approximately. I mean just -- are we talking about

12 once or twice or every day or 50? Give the Judges some idea of how often

13 did you receive a document like this.

14 A. Constantly went to do that forced labour beginning with the 15th

15 of April, and they only sent documents --

16 Q. Sorry. Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt you but, again, our time

17 is limited. I didn't ask you if you went every day. My question is how

18 often would you receive a document like this? Did you receive one every

19 day?

20 A. I have another document with the same language, but it was sent

21 by the Executive Board. The Executive Board over which I presided sent

22 the same call-up except the signature was the president of the

23 Executive Board.

24 Q. All right. Well, perhaps that's --

25 MR. SCOTT: And then I know we're coming up to the break,

Page 33324

1 Your Honour, but if we could finish with this.

2 Q. Perhaps that's the exhibit which is right before that one which

3 is P 10671. Do you see that? It should be the one right before it, sir,

4 10671.

5 A. Yes, that's the one. That's the document that I was talking

6 about. It's the very same document. As you see, it's only the president

7 of the Executive Board here.

8 Q. Okay. And before we take the break, sir, can you just -- so are

9 you telling us then that from -- because I heard you say a few moments

10 that you -- you first reported for work or did work, at least if I

11 understood you correctly, on the 15th of April, and is that -- is that

12 correct? Is it on the 15th of April, 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And how often did you engage in this sort of a work detail

15 between the 15th of April, 1993, and the time that you were unfortunately

16 taken into the camp, as you've told us, in, I don't know, early September

17 1993?

18 A. Sir, I went every day. There are only two days that I didn't go.

19 It was the 12th and the 13th of June, the two days when I went to attend

20 the meeting at Mr. Safet Cibo's. So only the 12th and the 13th of June I

21 didn't go. I went every day until the 8th of September. Actually, I

22 went there also on the 8th of September, the very day when I went to the

23 camp later on.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we can stop here.

Page 33325

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we break for 20 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we have something to

5 ask from you.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Not only me but also colleagues of mine have

7 wondered where you were going with this health issue and forced labour.

8 We do not quite understand the relevance. Perhaps you will tell us that

9 it's testing credibility and then, of course, that will be it, but could

10 you enlighten us? Thank you.

11 MR. SCOTT: Well, I guess two responses, Your Honour. As to the

12 first point, I did simply think that since there had been questions about

13 medical health, that we get a -- if there had ever been a diagnosis that

14 we ever actually get a diagnosis. I thought that seemed to be

15 appropriate. Maybe I was the only one that was curious. If so --

16 secondly, Your Honour, if -- I do have a few additional questions about

17 it and I think it is relevant to the nature of what this witness calls

18 forced labour and the characteristics of it. So if I'm ultimately wrong,

19 of course, the Chamber's not persuaded it's relevant, I guess I've wasted

20 my time.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. Please proceed.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, in terms of -- or I guess I should say, if I can --

24 Judge Trechsel, if I can respond one moment further. Of course I can't

25 know what the Chamber thinks of the evidence so far, so I can't --

Page 33326

1 perhaps you're already ahead of me. Maybe you are, maybe you're not. It

2 leaves all counsel in the -- I'm sure Mr. Karnavas and others, sometimes

3 not being sure of where the Chamber might be on particular evidence.

4 In looking at -- and I'm just using as an example, sir, that -- I

5 tell you right now that there's nothing magical about this particular

6 10672, just as the document itself. It says: "General mobilisation

7 call-up," and I guess in response to Judge Trechsel's question, this

8 was -- whatever your own personal difficulties, again, sir, which we can

9 all regret, this was a civilian protection work detail that people from

10 all over Jablanica town, both Croats and Muslims, were called out to do

11 work, public work, in this way; correct?

12 A. That's not correct. All the people, Croats and Muslims alike,

13 who were healthy and who were within a certain age bracket, who were not

14 children, who were not the elderly, could -- or, rather, had to respond

15 to this call-up. But persons such as myself could not be summoned to do

16 this kind of work. There wasn't a single law that provided for it.

17 Q. All right. Well, sorry, again, sir, if my question wasn't clear,

18 but I think you did answer my question. The intent of my question was

19 this was not something imposed on you as a prisoner or a detainee. It

20 wasn't just imposed on Croats. The able-bodied people in Jablanica, be

21 they Croat or Muslim, were mobilised for these work details throughout

22 this time period; correct?

23 A. That's not correct, sir. Croats were mobilised to do this kind

24 of work, to dig trenches, to carry ammunition and food to the combat

25 positions and to cut timber, and Muslims got tasks to clean the roads, to

Page 33327

1 load and unload. They never carried ammunition and food to the front

2 lines. And there was a law stipulating that only those who were able to

3 perform a certain task, who were in good health could be summoned, and

4 there was no law in Bosnia and Herzegovina that stipulated that I, with

5 the condition that I had, could be summoned to do the kind of work that

6 I, in the end, had to perform.

7 Q. Sir, as one of my colleagues likes to say, work with me on this

8 for a moment. I'm not asking you -- I'm putting aside your personal

9 situation, all right, and your personal hardship and your physical

10 problem, and I -- again, we all regret that. Putting aside your

11 particular situation. If you will -- if you'll allow me, I'm talking now

12 more general, and I was reacting specifically, sir, to your testimony a

13 few moments ago, and it's just about to leave the page, it just did

14 leave. Page 41, line 3. You said all people, all the people, Croats and

15 Muslims alike, were called out to engage in what I've called a public

16 work -- public works, public work details. Now, let's start with that.

17 That's correct; right?

18 A. No, that's not correct. This is the third time that I'm telling

19 you this. Croats were sent to do forced labour, and Muslims were given

20 tasks that could be subsumed under work obligation. That's the

21 difference.

22 Q. Sir, again, one step at a time. I understand -- you're loud and

23 clear that your position is that Croats were sent for a particular kind

24 of work and Muslims were engaged in a different type of work. I have you

25 on that. But in general when these -- these generalisation -- these

Page 33328

1 generalisation mobilisation call-up, the type of thing that we see in

2 Exhibit P 10672 and P 10671, these were mobilisations for all the people,

3 able bodied people living in Jablanica, both Croat and Muslims. That's

4 my only question to you at the moment. If you can assist us, please.

5 A. Let me assist you in this way: While I was mobilised, as is

6 indicated in the call-up paper, there were never any Muslims doing this

7 kind of work. And I do know that they went to do other work, easier

8 tasks, ordinary tasks. And I knew everybody there. Over the four months

9 there was not a single Muslim who worked with me. And I do know that

10 they went to do other kinds of work.

11 Q. All right. Well -- excuse me.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, you have not received, of course, the

13 answer to your question precisely, but I think implicitly you have, and I

14 would suggest that you not insist now, because the experience shows that

15 it will be probably not very fruitful.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. That's exactly what I was

17 going to do. I think that -- I hope that the Chamber -- once again, I

18 can't assert, as the President reminded me this morning, I can't know

19 what's in the Judges' heads, of course, but hopefully the point's been

20 made.

21 Q. Now, sir, in terms of -- now, I'm accepting what you're saying.

22 You're saying the Croats were sent to do a particular kind of different

23 work. So I'm on the same page with you, okay? But when you say you

24 went -- that you did these other tasks, can you tell us the locations?

25 Will you tell us some of the locations that you were sent to do these

Page 33329

1 other tasks and what you actually did there? Very briefly, please.

2 A. We went to a location. It's elevation Pisvir in the direction of

3 Poljane, in the direction where the HVO positions were. We carried food

4 and ammunition and we dug trenches there. We went to Boksevica too.

5 Again, in the direction where the HVO positions were, we carried food,

6 ammunition and water and we dug trenches. We also went to the Prenj

7 mountain where we cut timber for the fortifications of the BH positions.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 A. So we went to Mount Prenj --

10 Q. I'm not trying to be impolite but I'm trying to manage my time.

11 And I agree with that. I accept that.

12 A. [In English] Okay. Okay.

13 Q. When you say that you went to cut timber and dig trenches and did

14 these things, how close were you to the actual confrontation line when

15 you did these things?

16 A. [Interpretation] We were very close. People were killed on those

17 lines. Fortunately, I survived. And people, some were wounded in fact.

18 Q. All right. And so I take it -- that was my next question, and I

19 think it was as Judge Trechsel would say, it's implicit, but just to make

20 it very clear. So on some occasions when you were engaged in this work,

21 it was -- combat was active. Fighting was going on. Is that -- are you

22 telling us that, or did I misunderstand?

23 A. Yes, yes, yes.

24 Q. And did you consider it improper, sir, inappropriate for you and

25 the other Croats who were taken and used in that way? Did you consider

Page 33330

1 that to be improper behaviour?

2 A. Yes. I thought it was against some law somewhere.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question,

4 Mr. Witness. The front line, who was on the other side? Who was the

5 enemy on the other side of the line? Who was it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was the HVO army

7 that was on the other side as the enemy.

8 MR. SCOTT: All right. I am leaving that topic unless the

9 Judges -- I'm leaving that topic unless the Judges have other questions

10 about that. All right.

11 Q. Sir, I'd like you to be handed now before we proceed, in light of

12 testimony earlier today, if the witness could please be provided -- it's

13 not in the binder but I've asked to be distributed P 01631. Defence

14 counsel, I think, all have it, and if it could be given to the Chamber if

15 they don't have it, please.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: And while that is happening, Your Honour, I'm told

17 that there may be a mistranslation.

18 MR. SCOTT: I was going to deal with that, Counsel. Yes, I'm

19 aware. Thanks to Ms. Alaburic.

20 As Mr. Karnavas said, there may be a translation question which I

21 am grateful to Ms. Alaburic for bringing it to my attention, which I'll

22 get to in a moment.

23 Q. But, sir, if you have that document which is P 01631, this

24 appears to be a document, an HVO record dated the 9th of March, 1993,

25 over the name of Bruno Stojic with a stamp of the Herceg-Bosna Mostar

Page 33331

1 stamp on it, which appears to be, and again, if it's difficult for you, I

2 again regret having to bring up the topic of your brother, but it appears

3 to relate to your brother Marko Zelenika. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. All right. Now, in terms of the potential translation issue, and

6 I'll ask for the assistance of the booth, please, if you can read for us

7 where it's -- where it says "Command" in your language and under --

8 immediately below "Command." If you could please read that slowly enough

9 so the translation booths can assist us in the translation.

10 A. Should I read the whole text or just where it says --

11 Q. Excuse me, sir --

12 A. -- order?

13 Q. If I can help you further, help all of us. The top of the

14 document goes on with a preamble, and then it says: " ... hereby issues

15 the following command," or order, what have you. And immediately

16 following -- so if you'd find that portion. Can you start reading where

17 it says: " ... hereby issues the following," and then read that, you

18 know, next seven or eight, ten words, please.

19 A. "Order to discharge from the position in the Herceg Stjepan

20 Brigade in Konjic." Under number 1: "Marko Zelenika is discharged from

21 the position of the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the Herceg Stjepan

22 Brigade, Konjic. The defence office, personal military speciality

23 establishment, military speciality establishment, rank, addressees."

24 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

25 A. "The operational zone commander, the unit, the personnel

Page 33332

1 department, and the chief -- and the General Staff of the HVO."

2 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us -- well, did you

3 know anything about this order? I'm not asking if you'd seen the

4 particular document, but did you ever learn, around March or the spring

5 of 1993, about the discharge of your brother, Marko Zelenika, from the

6 post of commander of the 3rd Battalion by Mr. Stojic?

7 A. I knew about this discharge. I didn't know who issued it, and I

8 didn't see this document before.

9 Q. Very well. Can I turn to the topic, please, of the use of your

10 flat. If I understand your testimony correctly, you testified that

11 sometime in mid-April -- in the second half of April 1993, a Muslim

12 family was put up in your flat in Jablanica. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Now, is it correct, sir, that by the second half of 1993 -- well,

15 excuse me. Let me restate that. Can you assist us with approximately

16 how many Croat civilians were still in Jablanica town by the latter part

17 of April 1993? Approximately.

18 A. In the seat of the municipality in Jablanica there were over 500

19 Croats, but we should also take into account those who had been expelled

20 from the villages around it and came to the capital of the municipality.

21 So there were about 500 of them.

22 Q. All right. I didn't qualify my question in any way, sir. I just

23 wanted how many -- your estimate of approximately how many Croat

24 civilians were in Jablanica town by the latter part of April, and you say

25 about 500.

Page 33333

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, can you tell us when this Muslim family was put into your

3 flat how -- how that was arranged, how that came about?

4 A. This was done pursuant to an order of the War Presidency

5 stipulating that everybody was under an obligation to take in a family of

6 displaced persons, but the way it was implemented was that only Croat and

7 Serb families had to do it, whereas Muslim families did not have to put

8 up any displaced persons' families.

9 Q. Again so the record is very clear, what you're saying was that

10 the regulation or the programme, if you will, was supposed to apply to

11 everyone, including Muslims, but you're saying was implemented in such a

12 way that it was only Croat and Serb - excuse me - householders or

13 families that, in fact, did so or were required to do so; is that

14 correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And could I ask you, please, to look at P 10673. It should be

17 toward the end of the binder, I would think, somewhere. 10673. Fifth

18 from the back, I'm told.

19 Is this a copy of the document, sir -- it's titled on the top of

20 the page, at least in translation, as "Contract on joint use of flat."

21 Is that the document that you were involved in, in terms of this family

22 being placed in your flat?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just one or two questions. In terms of the people -- the

25 distribution list at the bottom of -- I think it's on the second page in

Page 33334

1 both events. Yes. Number 3, Jablanica Public Utilities Enterprise;

2 number 4, Elektro-Jablanica Power Company. I'm just curious as to -- do

3 you know why the document was provided to the public utilities enterprise

4 and the power company?

5 A. Esteemed Prosecutor, I'm extremely happy that this document is

6 here. I'm overjoyed, in fact.

7 Q. Well, I'm glad I could assist you in that way, sir.

8 A. I'm really overjoyed, because this document is written in my

9 hand. This is my handwriting. These are the names of the people who,

10 pursuant to the decision of the War Presidency, were put until my

11 apartment, and the procedure for this was as follows: An official of the

12 municipality, in this case it was Sead Bukva, and a police officer would

13 come to your door. They would bring this family with them, and they

14 would tell you, "Mirko, well, this family here has been assigned to your

15 apartment. Please don't let there be any problems." And I accepted

16 that.

17 Sead came later and demanded that I draft this contract, which is

18 what I did, but I never heard of anyone else in Jablanica drafting a

19 contract of this kind.

20 Do you know why I did it? This woman, Bulka Bukva and her

21 daughter and son-in-law Hamdija and the son Mujo and the sister-in-law

22 and two children. The first family had one child, so it's actually three

23 families who had come in from Rogatica to Jablanica in 1992. They had

24 been expelled by the Serbs, and they were in the local cinema. That's

25 where they were put up. And now when the war broke out between the BH

Page 33335

1 army and the HVO, some of the families, not all of them, were moved out

2 from the collective lodgings to better accommodation. And since

3 Mrs. Bulka had her brother -- her husband's brother, Mujo Bukva, he

4 was -- he lived on the first floor of my building and I lived on the

5 third floor, and Sead did not take this family to Suljo's place, which

6 would have been normal, but he took them to Mirko's apartment.

7 And then in order to secure their status in the future at the

8 time when the war was over, he asked me to write this kind of a contract.

9 But fortunately I knew how to do it, although I'm not a lawyer, but I was

10 able to draft this kind of contract. And I was in this apartment up

11 until sometime in August while there was enough food, and then they

12 evicted me. And I went one street down to Pera Bilica Street, to my

13 parent's place at number 4.

14 Q. I haven't wanted to interrupt you, but let's again take it in a

15 bit smaller pieces. My specific question to you at this particular point

16 is I see, then, that you -- you thought to send a copy of this to the

17 Jablanica Public Utilities Enterprise and Elektro-Jablanica, and I'm

18 just -- my question to you some minutes ago was why did you distribute

19 this document to them?

20 A. Well, Sead Bukva actually dictated this text to me. He was an

21 official of the municipality. He was in this staff for the accommodation

22 of refugees that we've been mentioning so often. And Sead, I guess,

23 thought, or at least that's what he told me, that I should write this.

24 Well, he must have known why this was necessary.

25 Q. All right. Now, sir, you said that this was -- this programme,

Page 33336

1 decision or programme, whatever it was, that came from the municipality

2 to house people, that this was not -- this was not applied to Muslims,

3 and I want to be sure here that --

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 Q. You're absolutely sure that no Muslims in Jablanica town in 1993

6 put up refugees or displaced persons in their houses?

7 A. Well, I cannot vouch for what happened after I left, after the

8 8th of September, but while I was there I can state that.

9 Q. Let me briefly ask you about a document that Mr. Karnavas showed

10 you. I believe you won't have it. It's not in my binder, I don't

11 believe. Perhaps we can have the assistance of e-court because it was a

12 Defence exhibit. 1D 00772. I guess it is. I'm told it is in the back

13 of the binder, sir. So -- third from the back, 1D 00772.

14 This is the -- this was a decision by -- apparently by Mr. Cibo

15 on the 29th of July, 1993, which you essentially dismissed as -- I think

16 you said something like it was nonsense in your testimony the other day,

17 and my question to you, sir, again is similar to some of the other

18 questions I've asked you.

19 Whatever you view of it might be, do you have -- do you have

20 personal knowledge that, in fact, none of the Croats from Doljani took

21 advantage of this situation to move into different accommodations? Do

22 you know for a personal -- out of personal knowledge that no Croat

23 families, in fact, did that?

24 A. Sir, I came into the museum on the 4th of November. These people

25 were already in the museum at that time.

Page 33337

1 Q. That's not my question.

2 A. And since I --

3 Q. Hold on a second. Just -- again, my time is limited. My

4 question to you is -- my question to you is, because you dismiss the

5 document and you gave us some reasons for that, but what I'm asking you

6 about now is -- because, again, it's like the documents -- some of the

7 other documents I have asked you about. Whether your personal belief or

8 you don't like the document or what happened around the time, but do you

9 have personal knowledge, sir, that during this time, during the summer of

10 1993, none the Croats from Doljani took advantage of this situation or

11 the opportunity, what you want to call it, to move into different

12 accommodation? And you either know or you don't know.

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. And in fact, sir, isn't it correct that the general conditions in

15 Jablanica town by June, July, August 1993, the conditions there were very

16 difficult for everyone in the town, Muslims, Croats, if there were any

17 Serbs left, I don't know, but it was a bad situation for everyone who was

18 still living in the town; correct?

19 A. That is not correct. The situation was difficult for everyone,

20 but it was extremely difficult for Croats and Serbs who were there.

21 Q. All right. Fair enough. It was very difficult for everyone,

22 according to you more difficult for some than others, but overall it was

23 not a very happy or pleasant situation; correct? Correct?

24 A. Yes. That's correct.

25 Q. And the housing situation which had caused, for example, the --

Page 33338

1 this family to have to move in with you in April, would it be fair to

2 say, sir, that the housing situation as -- over the course the summer,

3 became even worse?

4 A. Yes, but, again, not for everyone.

5 Q. And because -- for example, by July and August, isn't it correct

6 that there were Muslim refugees and displaced persons arriving in

7 Jablanica from places like Doljani and Stolac and Capljina, from Prozor

8 and Mostar? Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. And there came a time, is it correct, that the

11 authorities in Jablanica town decided that because of the housing

12 shortage some families -- families who had more than one flat or house,

13 if you will, the families would move in together into one flat so that

14 another flat could be made available to some of these displaced persons

15 or refugees? Correct?

16 A. That is not correct. You said -- you said families that had more

17 than one flat or house. I had only one flat, and everybody else were --

18 was in the same situation.

19 Q. Okay. Again perhaps, sir, it's a language issue or perhaps I

20 didn't choose my words wisely enough. When I say "family," now, I'm

21 talking about, for example, your parents -- your parents and yourself.

22 Your parents lived in a house, in a flat, if you will. They had a house.

23 You and your immediate family had a flat. And did it come about during

24 the summer of 1993 that you and your parents moved in -- you moved into

25 your parents' house under a programme to make other flats -- so to make

Page 33339

1 your flat and other flats available to these other persons? That's what

2 was happening; correct?

3 A. I am one family. My parents are another family. My brother had

4 his own family. But I was expelled, my brother was expelled, and we had

5 to go back to our parents' house after so many years. So we're talking

6 about three families here.

7 Q. All right. But, sir, I want the Court to understand, because we

8 talk about a lot of things in this courtroom, about ethnic cleansing and

9 forcible transfers and expulsions, et cetera, in a lot of different

10 context. What you're saying here is you were required to move out of

11 your own flat, if I can put it that way, your immediate family's flat,

12 and move back in with your parents in Jablanica town; correct? I'm just

13 trying to be clear, sir, so that we know what exactly happened.

14 A. Let me be very clear. Suada, Bulka's daughter told me, "Mirko,

15 this morning the police said make sure you're not in this apartment any

16 more from this day on." And in order not to expose my life to any risk

17 because there were Mujo and Hamdija who were armed members of the BH

18 army, I complied with her order and indeed I never went back to my

19 apartment.

20 Q. And, sir, that was --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your flat was a flat

22 belonging to the social property, or was it your own house?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, Your Honour, all

24 apartments were socially owned. Nobody in Jablanica had privately owned

25 apartments. There were privately owned houses though.

Page 33340

1 MR. SCOTT:

2 Q. All right, sir. And again, don't misunderstand me. I'm not

3 saying it wasn't an unpleasant situation, but I do want to be very clear

4 about exactly what it was that happened. And that, again, was something

5 that was happening across the town of Jablanica because of the severe

6 housing problem, and it was happening to everyone; correct? Muslims,

7 Croats, everyone had to make adjustments, as difficult as they were, to

8 provide housing.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

10 really have to object. I simply can't stay quiet with this way of

11 examination.

12 The Prosecutor now wants to proclaim this expulsion from the

13 man's apartment legal and lawful. It's the same thing that happened in

14 Mostar, which the Prosecutor calls ethnic cleansing. I really don't see

15 the point in asking the witness to qualify his expulsion from his own

16 apartment as something legal and acceptable. I as Defence counsel in

17 this courtroom can simply not take this.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us not get into this

19 discussion. Your objection has been recorded in the transcript.

20 Please continue, Mr. Scott.

21 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I didn't take a position one way or

22 another. I've been simply putting questions to the witness to describe

23 what happened, and I don't understand -- I don't understand counsel's

24 issue. Maybe there's a translation problem when it goes into Croatian, I

25 don't know. I simply asked the witness to be very specific as to what

Page 33341

1 happened so the Chamber knows when it considers this evidence exactly the

2 nature of what was done. I think it's clear to everyone in the courtroom

3 now than it might have been an hour ago.

4 Q. Now, turning to the museum, sir, which has come up in your

5 testimony, and the people who were staying at the museum. There were two

6 groups of people at the museum; correct? There were people who were

7 civilians, and again perhaps -- not perhaps, undoubtedly in very

8 difficult circumstances, but there was a group of civilians who were at

9 the museum, and then there was also a much smaller group of what we might

10 call prisoners of war; is that correct?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And during the time that you were staying at the museum, once you

13 began your time there, and again as unfortunate as that was,

14 approximately how many civilians, putting aside the prisoners of war now,

15 and you can work with me on this, how many civilians were living at the

16 museum at that time?

17 A. At that time, there were over 500 people in the museum. Five

18 hundred only civilians.

19 Q. And approximately how many of those were Muslims and how many

20 were Croat?

21 A. I don't know of any Muslims. I only know about Croats. Two

22 hundred fourteen from Doljani, 35 from Grabovica, 20-something from

23 Donja Grabovica, 180 from Konjic, around 70 Croats who had been expelled

24 from apartments in Jablanica and surrounding settlements, and there were

25 even accidental passers-by who were going from Bosnia towards the sea.

Page 33342

1 They were stopped, and when their IDs were checked somebody thought they

2 were Croats mistakenly, and there were actually some Serbs among them.

3 Those are the people I can remember at this moment. And in that

4 basement there were 88 persons who were classified as prisoners of war,

5 22 of which escaped. And then Zuka sent some men to that cell from which

6 the -- this number had escaped.

7 Those are the approximate numbers.

8 Q. Would you please turn to Exhibit P 06528. P 06528.

9 A. Where is that? 6528.

10 Q. Yes, sir. There should be a translation there for you. At least

11 I have one here. This is an ECMM report dated the 8th of November, 1993,

12 and if I can direct your attention, please, to -- fortunately the

13 paragraphs are numbered, so if I can ask you to go to paragraph number 5

14 under the heading "Humanitarian."

15 A. Excuse me, I don't have the Croat translation.

16 Q. It should be -- it's right there, sir. I'm looking -- I see it

17 there.

18 A. You mean here on the screen. Which paragraph?

19 Q. Number 5, please. This ECMM -- in this ECMM report, the ECMM

20 monitor says: "M1 visited the refugee and POW camp in the Jablanica

21 museum where conditions were described as appalling. Over 600 refugees

22 (Muslim and Croat) are accommodated in the building in addition to 41

23 Croat prisoners in five cells. There is an urgent need for supplies, in

24 particular, clothing."

25 Do you see that?

Page 33343

1 A. I see that.

2 Q. Now, sir, are you disagreeing with this report that these 600

3 refugees who were housed at the school [sic] included both Muslims and

4 Croats?

5 A. Sir, only when I got out of the camp, since it was impossible for

6 me to move away from that room where I was held, I hadn't been out of

7 there for four months, I couldn't know what was up there in the museum.

8 But when I got out of the camp, I found out that in the museum there had

9 also been Muslim refugees from Stolac, but they were refugees, whereas

10 the Croats were captives. It's not the same category.

11 Q. All right. So our problem has been the characterisation of not

12 who was there but apparently some were refugees and, according to you,

13 some were captives.

14 So at the school -- putting that aside for the moment then --

15 excuse me, at the museum. At least we have -- apparently we have

16 corrected one potential disagreement. You agree that at the -- at the

17 museum there were both Croats and Muslims being housed there, living

18 there?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I reject the characterisation "housed." One are

20 captives, the other one are there as refugees. There's quite a bit of a

21 difference. They're not living there as is being suggested. Let's be

22 precise with our language.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, I'm trying to simply -- I was trying to

24 use a neutral term for how they were living there. They were existing

25 there. That's where they were staying at the time, under, admittedly as

Page 33344

1 described here, difficult conditions. It was nothing more than that. As

2 Mr. Karnavas says, one step at a time.

3 Q. So there were both Muslims and Croats at the museum during this

4 time period?

5 A. Dear sir, we are going back to the same square one. You keep

6 torturing me, torturing me, and then you draw a conclusion and you want

7 me to say yes.

8 While I was at the museum I didn't know there were any Muslims

9 there. Only in 1994 when I got to Mostar, I found out that some Muslims

10 had been there as refugees. All the people I had known about, because

11 when entering the museum, I saw people from Doljani and elsewhere, and

12 then I got down in the basement and I never got out again until the end.

13 So my answer was: I didn't know there were any Muslims there.

14 Q. You see, that's -- again that wasn't my question, about what you

15 knew at the time. You did find out, and you agree with me from what you

16 found out, that there were Muslims and Croats in the museum at that time,

17 and the answer to that apparently is yes, you did come to know that?

18 A. That's what you said. You said yes. My answer is that I didn't

19 know it while I was there. You didn't ask me what I found out in 1995.

20 Q. I had earlier --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Again, Mr. Scott, I think you should --

22 MR. SCOTT: I understand, Your Honour. I understand.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Did you have something to say, Mr. Karnavas?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. It's been asked and answered. That's what

25 I'm trying to say.

Page 33345

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's been asked -- one question has been asked,

2 and the different answer has been given, but -- okay. Go, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, well --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally disagree with you, Judge Trechsel, on

5 this one.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, I don't mind. Please sit down, and,

7 Mr. Scott, please continue.

8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, I think the nature of my questions, the

9 tone of my questions has been fair. I'm just trying to seek

10 clarification, and I don't think I've been pressing the witness unfairly,

11 and I think that's clear to anyone in the courtroom, the questions I put

12 in the last few minutes, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

13 Let me see where we are.

14 Q. Sir, in connection again with the museum, and again for

15 clarification's sake, I hope I'm not pressing unfairly, but questions

16 have come up, and in fact the President asked a question about this the

17 other day and I'd like to come back to it to see if we can clarify the

18 situation. If you have 1D 01859 available to you. I don't think it's --

19 I'm not sure if it's in the binder, but if we can have the assistance of

20 the e-court please. 1D 01859. It's a document that, I believe,

21 Mr. Karnavas showed to you.

22 This was a list of people at the museum, a list of Croats at the

23 museum dated the 16th of May, 1993. And perhaps -- I believe this was --

24 let me just make sure I'm not mistaken.

25 You were listed as number 207, and your brother 208, I believe.

Page 33346

1 207 is Mirko Zelenika. 208 is Marko Zelenika.

2 Now, this document is dated -- first of all, the document is

3 dated the 16th of May, 1993. I don't know if there was an error in the

4 date, but we understood -- or at least I had understood that you weren't

5 kept at the museum until after the 8th of September, 1993. Can you

6 clarify that, please?

7 A. You said, sir, this was a list of people who were at the museum,

8 but I'm telling you this is not the list of Croats who were in the

9 museum.

10 Q. Do you know what it is a list of, then? Again, so the record is

11 clear, because we talked about on, I believe, Monday or Tuesday. What is

12 it, please? When was this list prepared, for what purpose, if you know?

13 A. You see the date on this list, and the purpose was to know

14 exactly how many Croats in Jablanica were interned in some way,

15 ghettoized, who were unable to leave until a certain point. Those were

16 people who were still in Jablanica, in town, but not yet at the museum.

17 Q. So this goes back to the question that I was asking earlier about

18 how many Croats were still in Jablanica around late April, early May

19 1993, but these were not --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, one moment, please.

21 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to

22 be of assistance to everyone in the courtroom, including Mr. Scott. I

23 believe there is a misunderstanding of what the witness is saying. If

24 Mr. Scott wants to go back to paragraph 7 of the ECMM report, point 7

25 explains the document we're looking at now. The previous document,

Page 33347

1 paragraph 7, will show why the witness is linking this current document

2 to -- to what he's saying now.

3 MR. SCOTT: Well, I don't know, Your Honour, and I don't know if

4 the witness is linking it or not. I had understood and I appreciated the

5 witness clarifying -- maybe I misunderstood from what was said

6 previously, but now I understand that this is a list of civilians who

7 were still in Jablanica, Croat civilians who were still in Jablanica town

8 at that time period and not detained, because I thought the question that

9 was put on -- hold on one moment. Because it's specifically in

10 connection with this document. The testimony was and it was by the

11 President, Your Honour, with great respect. Judge Antonetti said, "Was

12 your brother detained with you in the museum? This morning we saw a list

13 and he was in the list as you were." And that's where I was coming back

14 to in connection with -- and that's the list that we were talking about

15 at the time, 1D 01859.

16 Q. So I think you've clarified further, sir, that this was not a

17 list that was composed after you were put at the museum but as a list of

18 civilians who were in Jablanica town in mid-May 1993. So --

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to clarify

20 something in addition to what my colleague Ms. Tomasegovic said. The

21 title of the document we're looking at now, 1D 1859, relates also to

22 Croats who are blocked in Jablanica. Not only the Croats who were

23 detained but those who were blocked in Jablanica. Whereas the previous

24 document, as I suppose my colleague wanted to say regarding paragraph 7

25 of the ECMM report, says that the Muslim refugees in Jablanica were

Page 33348

1 enabled to leave Jablanica for Bugojno, whereas the Croats were isolated

2 and prevented from evacuating. In that sense, they were Croats who were

3 blocked in Jablanica without being detained yet. That's what the

4 document, the previous document explains.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I was not making any of

7 those links. I was simply asking for clarification. It seems like other

8 counsel are conducting a different examination than the one that I'm

9 conducting, but in any event, we've clarified the document. That was my

10 only intention in terms of 1859.

11 Q. On that point, say -- in terms of this testimony, excuse me, on

12 this same point you referred to -- you said your brother was detained in

13 Donja -- Donja Jablanica with Zuka, and then because of the consequences

14 he suffered, he died in a camp. He was not at the museum.

15 Judge Antonetti, question, "Did he die because of the consequences of his

16 detention?" Witness: "Yes, that's what the doctors established."

17 And just to be clear on that, sir, so was your brother ever

18 detained at the museum or not and then moved someplace else, or was he

19 never at the museum?

20 A. My brother was never at the museum. If you wish, I can clarify a

21 bit more --

22 Q. Well, sir --

23 A. -- concerning this list.

24 Q. I'm trying to clarify that. No, please, I'm sorry. My time is

25 limited. If I had more time, sir, we could talk about a lot of things a

Page 33349

1 lot longer, I'm afraid, both of us. And your brother, unfortunately,

2 then you said passed away at some point. As a -- as here he says --

3 well, Judge Antonetti's question was: "Did he die because of the

4 consequences of his detention?"

5 Can you tell us approximately when your brother passed away,

6 please?

7 A. I would appreciate it if you would stay away from questions about

8 my brother. If you really want to know, in the clinical hospital of

9 Mostar there are medical files in the internist department, but I'm not

10 going to answer these questions any more.

11 Q. I'm sorry, sir, but the question was put to you before and you

12 answered questions on this previously today, and I'm asking for

13 clarification, and I've tried to do it in a very respectful way, I think,

14 sir. All I'm asking is: Can you tell us the approximate date when your

15 brother passed away? I'm sorry if that's difficult for you, but could

16 you please give us the date?

17 A. He died five, six, or seven years later, but he had been in and

18 out of hospital all that time.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, in light of this questioning, this

20 type of questioning, it does permit me, I believe, to go into details

21 about what happened to this individual, this gentleman, as well as the

22 brother, how they were tortured and how they were treated. We stayed

23 away from that, but now we're getting into an area where it's far afield.

24 I understand he's trying to impeach the gentleman as if he's

25 confabulating or lying about his brother. That's what I believe is

Page 33350

1 happening. But now I'm not permitted to go in because one of the Judges

2 says, how can you do that, it's tu quoque. And quite rightly so to some

3 degree. But now it appears -- now it appears that a door is being wide

4 open, and the Trial Chamber needs to make a decision. At what point are

5 they going to restrict the Prosecution to issues that are of relevance?

6 I don't see anything from the Bench, and that's why I'm trying to

7 intervene over and over again. And so I say -- I take it from your

8 passivity that this is an area that we can go into.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, to know the

10 relevance one should know the Prosecutor's going to. I was listening to

11 him. I was waiting to see what he wanted to underscore or highlight.

12 Did he seek information on the death of the witness's brother? Did he

13 want to test the witness's credibility? I know nothing about it. Just

14 as when you ask questions sometimes I have no idea what you're aiming at,

15 so I let you go, and then we draw conclusions. So here I don't know at

16 all what the Prosecutor was trying to highlight.

17 But, Witness, Mr. Karnavas said that you were tortured. We're

18 not going to go into details, but you do confirm that it was a very

19 painful, very difficult detention. That's what I understood, but I did

20 not want to go into details, but your counsel is returning to this issue

21 of your detention. So -- say your lawyer or counsel. Mr. Prlic's

22 counsel returns to this issue. So it was a very difficult time this

23 detention; correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood.

Page 33351

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, I find Mr. Karnavas's question as to

2 the road you are taking and where you are heading quite justified. I had

3 asked that before once today, but again could you -- could you explain us

4 where this is supposed to lead?

5 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I'm afraid this is a situation

6 that everybody seems to be attributing some sort of an ulterior motive to

7 me. I wanted to make sure -- and I'm not injecting a new issue. In fact

8 I read to you, some moments ago, exactly some of the prior evidence from

9 earlier this week. So Ken Scott did not initiate or raise this topic.

10 So let's be very clear about that. And I've tried to be respectful and

11 delicate with the issue, I think, but thought that it was -- it might be

12 important at some point to know what we were talking about. And just as

13 there were Muslims who were detained who had difficult conditions and may

14 have died some years after, later, that could be the case, but I just

15 thought -- I wanted to be clear whether this is something that happened

16 at the time while he was -- while the brother was detained, as difficult

17 as that would be, or was it something that happened some time later? And

18 the witness has answered that question. I don't intend to pursue it any

19 further.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Move on to another topic.

21 MR. SCOTT: As I said, Your Honour, that was exactly my intent.

22 Q. Sir, are you familiar with -- I'm changing topics here. Are you

23 familiar with an organisation called the Association of Volunteers and

24 Veterans of the Homeland War of Herceg-Bosna?

25 A. Yes.

Page 33352

1 Q. And that is sometimes referred to, perhaps, and I don't know

2 exactly how it would be translated, but UDIDDR? I've seen it both UDIDDR

3 and also HDIDDR. Is that correct?

4 A. I don't know exactly what the acronym stands for, but you cited

5 the correct name.

6 Q. All right. And have you been a member of that organisation, sir?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Do you recall, sir, in 2000 being involved in a

9 protest about the work of the ICTY?

10 A. I can't remember unless you help me.

11 Q. If you could look, please, in the binder at P 10654. Sir, this

12 is a news account of a -- what was described as a rally in January of

13 2000 that was apparently organised by the HBIDRA, and you were indicated

14 as having been present, about the middle of the page. You should see it

15 also in the Croatian version: "Mirko Zelenika, president of the

16 Prisoners' Association of Mostar." The statement is attributed to you:

17 "The political leadership of the Croat people in Bosnia-Herzegovina must

18 break its silence and define the aims of the Croats in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina."

20 Do you remember participating in this rally?

21 A. I can't confirm that.

22 Q. Have you ever taken a position, sir, or expressed a view on the

23 creation or establishment of a separate Croat entity in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Some might have called it as the third entity.

25 A. No.

Page 33353

1 Q. Sir, I put it to you that in connection with your testimony here

2 and your role in the Jablanica municipality at the time, in fact you were

3 one of the leading HVO activists in Jablanica municipality in 1992, 1993,

4 weren't you?

5 A. Absolutely not.

6 Q. In fact, sir, you were one of the leading idealogues of the

7 organisation, weren't you?

8 A. By no means.

9 Q. In connection with this rally in 2000, did you talk about the

10 fact that every form of cooperation with the international community must

11 be re-examined?

12 A. I've told you that I can't confirm I was at that rally.

13 Q. You can't -- are you saying you can't confirm and you're also not

14 denying?

15 A. I am denying. I wasn't there and I didn't say anything.

16 Q. Have you ever talked about the holding of a referendum on the

17 establishment of a Croat entity in Bosnia?

18 A. Absolutely not.

19 Q. Have you ever discussed with anyone, in 2000, of defining the

20 aims of the Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you express any view around this time, whether on that

23 particular occasion or not but in January 2000 or in that time period,

24 something along the lines that if the demands stated in this news item,

25 if they -- if these demands are not met, we will -- we shall be held

Page 33354

1 responsible by history and the Croat people which will be faced with its

2 own extinction?

3 A. No.

4 MR. SCOTT: If I can just check on time, Your Honour.

5 Q. Were you -- before we leave at that document, sir, were you the

6 president of the Prisoners' Association as indicated in this -- in that

7 report around that time?

8 A. What year?

9 Q. In 2000, sir, or 1999, 2000, 2001. During that general time

10 period, had you been the president of something called the

11 Prisoners' Association? And that may not be the full title, and if you

12 were, perhaps you can assist us.

13 A. Yes. In that period I was the president of the Croatian

14 Association of Camp Inmates or Prisoners.

15 Q. All right. All right. Sir, the final topic that I would like to

16 turn to is questions that were put to you by various of the Defence

17 counsel in connection with some additional events in April and May of

18 1993.

19 Isn't it correct, sir, that the HVO actions that took place in

20 Jablanica municipality in mid-April of 1993 were all part of an overall

21 HVO plan arising or in connection with the HVO ultimatum that was given

22 earlier that month with the 15 April deadline?

23 A. Well, the question is isn't it correct. Well, sir, it is

24 absolutely not true, not correct what you say in your question.

25 Q. Well, you had heard around that time of a decision issued by the

Page 33355

1 HVO government to -- calling for this -- the ABiH to either leave the

2 areas -- the Croat-controlled areas or subordinate themselves to the HVO

3 by the 15th of April 1993, hadn't you?

4 A. Sir, this decision that you just mentioned is something that I've

5 never heard of. That's not correct.

6 Q. All right. Let me -- let me stay with you a few moments longer

7 and let me see if we can make any progress on that. Can I ask you to

8 look at P 01808. P 01808.

9 A. Where would it be?

10 Q. 1808.

11 MR. SCOTT: We some assistance, please, Mr. Usher. P 01808.

12 THE WITNESS: Okay.

13 MR. SCOTT:

14 Q. So this is a news item for Borba, which I understand is a

15 publication in Belgrade, and on the 5th of April, 1993, reporting in the

16 second paragraph, it's from a -- excuse me. It's been reported -- the

17 byline is Zagreb, and it says: "The Croatian Defence Council yesterday

18 called for the pull-out of Muslim troops from the provinces assigned to

19 the Croats under a UN peace plan thus heightening the tensions between

20 the nominal allies.

21 "The HVO command set April 15 as the deadline for

22 Alija Izetbegovic to sign a joint document which calls for the pull-out

23 of troops and the creation of a Joint Command, thus confirming that there

24 are no disagreements between the Croats and Muslims.

25 "If Izetbegovic does not sign the agreement by 15 April, the HVO

Page 33356

1 will unilaterally establish its authority" --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you kindly slow down.

3 MR. SCOTT: My apologies to the interpreters.

4 "Establish its authority in provinces 3, 8, and 10, says a

5 communique from the HVO General Staff in Mostar. Croatian radio said

6 yesterday that Bosnian Croat leader Mate Boban has signed the document

7 and was waiting for the response of the Muslim authorities."

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be allowed

9 to object to this question. I would like to draw your attention to the

10 fact that this is a report that was taken from the Croatian radio and

11 published by Reuters, a British agency, and then it was published in a

12 Belgrade daily, Borba. So this is just one media outlet retelling a

13 story picked up from another media outlet, and I would like us to make

14 sure that we all know that this is not the ultimatum itself. It is just

15 a series of retelling of the story of the ultimatum from one media to

16 another.

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes. No one ever said anything to the contrary.

18 Again, I'm not sure what the objection is. It's a media article. If the

19 Chamber would like to and if the courtroom would like to look at P 10675,

20 you will see similar articles written on the 4th of April, 1993, in

21 Reuters. Similar article in the Financial Times on the 20th of April,

22 1993. Similar article in the Christian Science Monitor on 7 April 1993.

23 A similar article dated 6 April 1993 in the Agency French Press,

24 Agence France Presse. And I won't pretend that my French is anything,

25 but in the AFP. So counsel can pick any of the four or five articles she

Page 33357

1 wants.

2 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that -- are you saying that you had never

3 heard at the time, despite the fact that it was being reported around the

4 world, that this deadline of April 15th, 1993, had been set?

5 A. I didn't hear about that, sir. You have to know that we in

6 Jablanica were in a media blockade too. We didn't read the papers.

7 Q. Well, sir, in the course of -- in the course of the last few days

8 you've told us, in fact, that you had the television. You listened to

9 the radio.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

11 MR. SCOTT: Is this a legal objection or is --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you want to say,

13 Mr. Praljak? Mr. Praljak?

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It's not a legal objection.

15 It's an objection because the Prosecutor keeps referring to the British

16 and American media, the term that they -- that they broadcasted all over

17 the world. Britain and the US are not the whole world.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Scott.

19 MR. SCOTT: So stipulated, Your Honour. It's not the whole world

20 but Financial Times, Reuters, AFP, are pretty widely disseminated news

21 sources. All right. But we have -- in any event the witness says there

22 was a blockade.

23 Q. But my question to you, sir, in response to that was, I thought

24 you told us over the past several days that there was radio, there was

25 television, that, in fact, these were all things that you were listening

Page 33358

1 to in this time period. Isn't that correct?

2 A. No, that's not correct. We are now in 1993, and in 1992 we were

3 able to follow. We watched the TV, listened to radio and read the

4 newspapers, but by 1993 we stopped watching TV and reading the papers and

5 listening to the radio.

6 Q. And so even in the local news radio, because here it says, in the

7 first document, P 01808, for example, says that: "A communique was

8 issued by the HVO General Staff in Mostar." Some of us must might call

9 that a press release. And then it goes on to say that: "Croatian radio

10 said yesterday that Bosnian Croat leader Mate Boban had signed the

11 document."

12 So are you telling the Judges that, to your knowledge, no press

13 releases or communiques from the HVO General Staff were being

14 communicated around this time and that you were not getting Croatian

15 radio around this time?

16 A. Well, if I had listened to it, I would have heard something; but

17 because I didn't listen, I didn't hear. And in particular, I did not

18 hear anything of the sort of the thing that you're asking me about.

19 Q. All right. Well, let me just try one more thing and then we'll

20 see whether we pursue it further or not. Can I ask you to turn next to

21 P 01911. P 01911.

22 If you have that, sir. This is again an ECMM report titled,

23 "The Present Jablanica Crisis." It is dated on the last page the 16th of

24 April, 1993. And if I can direct your attention, please, to item number

25 3, which is titled, "Political Activity."

Page 33359

1 Just one moment, please. My apologies. That relates to another

2 part of my -- let me ask you to look to item 4, "Military Activity."

3 A. Military activities.

4 Q. If you have that, sir. Excuse me a moment. My apologies. It's

5 entirely my fault. My notes aren't correct, that I've made myself.

6 Purely my fault. Let me try again.

7 Item -- section number 6, which is titled "Indicators."

8 My apologies to the courtroom. I had the document marked for a

9 number of different purposes, and I went to the wrong place.

10 Sir, in that section 6, and this is the particular aspect that I

11 want --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, this document P 1911

13 is deposited under seal.

14 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I think it's one of those

15 documents that we can use but should not be broadcast outside the

16 courtroom. We can talk about it, but just so long as it's not being

17 broadcast outside the courtroom, please. Thank you. Thank you,

18 Mr. President.

19 Q. Sir, in item 6 it says -- the second line says: "The HVO had

20 declared their intent to implement the Vance-Owen Plan."

21 Skipping down. In connection with the radio, that's the media

22 that we've been talking in the last few minutes, it says: "The HVO make

23 regular radio broadcast ultimatums to the Muslim forces in Herceg-Bosna

24 (never written), yet seldom follow up the ultimatums suggesting that the

25 concept is to provoke the Muslims into actions that can be used to

Page 33360

1 justification for aggression in the name of defence."

2 My point to you is not to argue the politics of it at this point,

3 but again it says the regular radio broadcasts were made about these

4 topics and about ultimatums. Now, just let me -- you don't recall any --

5 hearing any of that in any of the media, either in the print media or the

6 electronic media, in the Jablanica area around this time? Sir?

7 A. Sir, at that time I spent my time digging, from 7.00 until 4.30

8 in the afternoon. And even if I had wanted to, I wouldn't have been in a

9 position to read anything or to listen to anything.

10 MR. SCOTT: Let me check my notes, Your Honours.

11 Q. Mr. Zelenika, in light of those answers, I won't persist in that

12 particular line. I want to tell you again that none of my questioning

13 was meant to cause you any particular pain or difficulty, but sometimes

14 it may be difficult. Thank you.

15 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We should stop in

17 ten minutes. Are there any redirect questions?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: There are some, Your Honour. I can do it now or

19 we could take a break. If we're going to be going past -- beyond -- if

20 there are any other matters that we're going to be dealing with, then we

21 could take the break. Otherwise --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I know that Ms. Alaburic

23 wants to talk about housekeeping questions. So the best would be to

24 break now and you will redirect after the break, and we will talk about

25 the housekeeping matters after that.