Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33571

 1                           Wednesday, 22 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 3.30 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours and everyone in and

 8     around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

 9     versus Prlic et al., thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today is Wednesday.  I'd like to greet Mr. Stringer, Mr. Longone,

12     Defence counsel, and all the other members of the OTP.

13             Registrar and the usher, we are starting late because there was a

14     fire drill.  This is why we are only starting at a half past 3.00 today.

15             We discovered a few moments ago that the Prosecution had sent us

16     a mail concerning their witness schedule.  We have not had time to look

17     at it.  If we do have time, we'll address it today.  Otherwise, it will

18     be on Monday, but we have received your mail.

19             For the time being we shall resume your cross-examination and

20     have one single break at 5.00.  It will be a 30-minute break, and we will

21     then resume at half past 5.00 and run on till 7.00.  And we will, I'm

22     sure, continue tomorrow if we haven't finished by then.

23             MR. LONGONE:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

24     everyone in and around the courtroom.

25                           WITNESS:  MARINKO SIMUNOVIC [Resumed]

Page 33572

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Longone:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Let me focus today --

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   Let me focus today to the work of the coordinating committee that

 6     we have been discussing or your testimony was about on Monday and

 7     Tuesday, and in that respect could you please focus your attention on

 8     Exhibit 1D 01324 [sic].

 9             And for the benefit of everyone in the courtroom, the Prosecution

10     exhibits are in the -- in the big binder, and the Defence exhibits are in

11     the first binder, and there is the first one you have there in your

12     hands.  Sir, that's the exhibit I want to refer to.  1D 01324 -- 28.

13             And, sir, this document dated 8 October -- did you find it?  Do

14     you have it with you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   This exhibit refers to the -- the establishing of the

17     coordinating committee for the collection and reception of humanitarian

18     aid, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes, but the title says, "Collection -- or, rather, reception and

20     distribution of humanitarian aid."

21        Q.   All right, sir.  And the decision of establishing this

22     coordinating committee was on the 8th October 1992, isn't it?

23        A.   That's what it says.

24        Q.   And in -- in Article I of that decision, the second para, it says

25     that, "The committee shall consist of one representative from each

Page 33573

 1     humanitarian organisation registered in the municipality of Mostar ..."

 2     isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4        Q.   And, sir, would you agree with me in the second graph it says

 5     once the president and vice-president from that committee are elected by

 6     the committee members they need to have the approval, they need to be

 7     approved by the Office for Social and Medical Welfare and Refugees from

 8     the HVO, isn't it?

 9        A.   That's what the article says in keeping with the approval of the

10     social and medical welfare and refugees office since the decision is made

11     as soon as approval is granted by the office and in keeping with the

12     meaning and purpose of adopting such a decision at all.

13        Q.   All right, sir.  And paragraph VI of that decision it says that

14     for items I and II basically the distribution -- the collection,

15     reception, distribution of the humanitarian aid, those functions of the

16     committee shall be carried out by the council of the Office for

17     Humanitarian and Social Welfare of the HVO, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes, but I don't see the word "HVO" being used here.  In order to

19     set up the committee in the sense of paragraph I and II of this decision

20     the functions of the committee will be performed by the council of the

21     social welfare office.  So somebody had to initiate this whole action and

22     somebody had to take the first steps and that precisely was in reference

23     to this body.

24        Q.   Right, sir.  And would you agree with me that that council of the

25     office for humanitarian and social welfare belonged to the Herceg-Bosna

Page 33574

 1     government?

 2        A.   It belonged to the Mostar municipal government.

 3        Q.   And the Mostar municipal government was governed from the

 4     Herceg-Bosna government, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And -- thank you very much.  And if you see at the end of that

 7     same decision, you have the signature of Jadran Topic and clearly it says

 8     the president of the HVO municipality Mostar, isn't?  HVO.  Do you see

 9     that?

10        A.   Yes, yes, it's there.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I don't know if there

12     is a misunderstanding or a mistranslation.  The Prosecution has asked you

13     the following question, whether the government of the municipality in

14     Mostar is the same as the government of Herceg-Bosna.  You answered by

15     saying, Yes.  I don't understand any more if that's the case.  Could you

16     clarify this for us, please?  It says yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] the question, Your Honour, was

18     whether the government of Mostar municipality belonged to Herceg-Bosna,

19     and my answer in that sense was yes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Government of Herceg-Bosna,

21     because in the question it said government of Herceg-Bosna.  That's on

22     line 2, page 4.  There might have been a confusion here.  The

23     municipality is one thing, and the government of Herceg-Bosna is another.

24     Do we agree on this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Those are two distinct

Page 33575

 1     authorities.  There is the municipal level and there's a higher level.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

 3             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   And you have understood correctly my question.  The Mostar -- the

 5     HVO Mostar government belonged to the Herceg-Bosna government.

 6             And, sir, now focusing your attention on --

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me, Your Honour, again the gentleman -- the

 8     gentleman yesterday and perhaps I was too calm, too nice to the gentleman

 9     and didn't react strongly enough.  The gentleman needs to understand what

10     is meant by government and what is Herceg-Bosna and what is the

11     Herceg-Bosna government; and he keeps mixing them up.

12             I understand maybe he wants to fit it into some kind of a theory

13     of his, but I would ask that the Trial Chamber instruct my learned friend

14     to be precise in his questions, and if he doesn't know, if he doesn't

15     know the distinction between one and the other, we can give him at some

16     point, perhaps during the break, a lesson, but this is -- this happened

17     over and over again yesterday.  I think he's trying to trick the witness.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, if you had two more seconds of

19     patience, you saw that I was about to do this, but you took the floor

20     because you -- you like to and because you wanted, apparently, to be

21     nattier than yesterday, which I'm quite sure is not necessary.  I have

22     rather the feeling that what we are faced with is a linguistic

23     difficulty.

24             And indeed I will tell you, Mr. Longone, the -- you have -- you

25     have been a recidivist because there had just been a correction saying

Page 33576

 1     that the municipality of Mostar and the government of the municipality of

 2     Mostar is part of Herceg-Bosna, full stop, not of the government of

 3     Herceg-Bosna.  And you should perhaps cross out the word "government" in

 4     your vocabulary for some time unless you have really solid ground to use

 5     it.  On the merits Mr. Karnavas is quite right.

 6             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm not going to use the

 7     word government and I understood that now.

 8        Q.   Witness, if you focus to 1D 02662.  That's the chart that you

 9     discussed in your testimony before on Monday.

10        A.   Okay.  I've got it.

11        Q.   And this is the chart that you mentioned the persons that did

12     that chart, and it bears your signature.  And in this chart you mentioned

13     there were not -- although they were part at one point of the

14     coordinating committee, the Merhamet and the Red Crescent are not in this

15     chart, isn't it?

16        A.   That's obvious, isn't it?  They're not.  But a mere six different

17     organisations are listed here.  I'm looking at the document.  I don't

18     know what its number is, but you see that the Red Crescent is admitted to

19     the board as the tenth member.  Therefore, this is the first chart that

20     was drawn up, and each of the organisations that were registered

21     throughout Mostar municipality was a member of this board, including the

22     Red Crescent, including Merhamet, and a number of other organisations

23     active throughout Mostar municipality.

24        Q.   Yes, sir.  And if ou focus on the note of that chart, would you

25     agree with me that the centre of social work is not a member of the

Page 33577

 1     coordinating committee but as a specialised institution it takes part in

 2     its work.

 3        A.   Yes.  They drew up the minutes for these meetings.  They provided

 4     any technical assistance whenever necessary.  Everything we've been

 5     talking about for the last two days it's about establishing criteria and

 6     all the elements that allowed this board to work as efficiently as

 7     possible.

 8        Q.   And if we continue with Exhibit 1D 01427 that is another exhibit

 9     that you had been discussing, sir, before.

10        A.   Can you please repeat the number?

11        Q.   Yes, of course.  1D 01427.

12        A.   Yes, I've got it.

13        Q.   All right.  This document is a report, we can see.  It's coming

14     from the office of expelled persons, refugees, and displaced persons, the

15     ODPR.  Do you remember, sir, who was on January 1993 the head of the

16     ODPR?

17        A.   I don't.

18        Q.   Sir, this report mentions a meeting held on January 7, 1993, of

19     all humanitarian organisations in the territory of the Herceg-Bosna

20     community, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and there is a list of

21     people there participating in this meeting.  Do you recognise yourself in

22     that document, sir?

23        A.   Of course I do.  Number 8.

24        Q.   And, sir, in this list we can see that there are representatives

25     from the UNHCR, from the ICRC, from Caritas; right?

Page 33578

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   And the Merhamet, the Red Crescent, the Mostar Red Cross, and the

 3     information office.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Do you know who was the member of the information office, what

 6     information office is that one?

 7        A.   I think this is someone from the office for refugees and

 8     displaced persons, the person who was in charge of spreading information

 9     in this particular office.

10        Q.   Sir, and all these people in this meeting has to do with this

11     coordinating committee meetings regarding the humanitarian aid?

12        A.   We held meetings of the coordinating committee that weren't the

13     same things as the meetings we had with the office for refugees.  This

14     was a general invitation to all these organisations, and it had to do

15     with global issues.  As for the functioning of the coordinating

16     committee, we had special meetings called by the committee itself.

17        Q.   And, sir, do you recognise all the people in that -- in that

18     list?  Do you remember them?

19        A.   Yes, aside from the foreigners who came and went.  I don't quite

20     remember them all that clearly.

21        Q.   And the people from -- I would say that you were mentioning that

22     you were very much in contact and exchanging information, you told us on

23     Monday and Tuesday, with people from the ICRC and from other

24     international humanitarian organisations as the UNHCR.  Do you remember

25     whether these people were regularly participating in these meetings?  At

Page 33579

 1     least in the month of January?

 2        A.   Based on this record you can see that they were there.  This

 3     report is not a report from a meeting of the coordinating committee to

 4     begin with.  They were invited, and they came.  As for the meetings of

 5     our coordinating committee, they were under no commitment to attend

 6     those.  Only if they were specially invited.

 7        Q.   All right.  And -- but you mentioned before that -- what I

 8     understood from the transcript that these meetings called maybe by ODPR

 9     all the people, all these humanitarian organisations were invited.  So it

10     was not the only one.  I understood correct that these meetings were held

11     regularly as well?

12        A.   I don't know when and how frequently the office for refugees and

13     displaced persons of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna called such

14     meetings.  Whenever I was invited to attend on behalf of the Red Cross or

15     the coordinating committee I would attend, but this is no meeting of the

16     coordinating committee, and I think the two need to be kept apart.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  And -- for that clarification.  If you see

18     there at the end of the list of people participating it clearly says that

19     the next meeting has been scheduled for the 12th January 1993 at 11

20     hours.

21        A.   That's what it says, yes.

22        Q.   So it seems -- thank you very much.  So it seems that there were

23     other meetings that were being taking place with these people.

24        A.   That's what this suggests, yes, but again every time I was called

25     to a meeting I would go.

Page 33580

 1        Q.   And in the conclusions of that meeting, sir, it is clear that

 2     there are some communication problems between some local humanitarian

 3     organisations and -- at the municipal level.  This is what it says from

 4     the conclusions and it points out to Caritas and Merhamet, isn't it?

 5     That's in point three of the conclusion, the last point of the

 6     conclusion.

 7        A.   Yes.  That's what it says, doesn't it.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  Sir, do you agree with those conclusions?

 9     Do you agree there were problems with Merhamet and Caritas and

10     communication in January 1993 regarding humanitarian aid issues?

11        A.   There were communication problems, but that applied to all the

12     organisations, but these were operative problems and not some broader

13     problems as it derived when, how, were the necessary documents secured in

14     time for the aid to come through, that sort of problem.  Were the goods

15     distributed in a timely manner?  Was there enough manpower to do the

16     loading and unloading of aid?  Operative problems, nothing more than

17     that.

18        Q.   Sir, you don't remember whether there were any other concerns

19     highlighted by the units here or the ICRC or the Merhamet in January 1993

20     in Mostar regarding the distribution of humanitarian aid?  Is that your

21     answer?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  I want to object to the form of the question.  He

23     was asked a question regarding the insufficient contacts.  Now when you

24     look at the next question, it assumes facts not in evidence.  I will look

25     at the argument -- the answer that the gentleman gave, but I do think

Page 33581

 1     that the next question misses a beat.  He's jumping to a conclusion.

 2     There are no facts to establish that.  Now, if I wishes to establish some

 3     facts or show the gentleman some facts that's another story.

 4             MR. LONGONE:

 5        Q.   Sir, do you recall any other problem regarding humanitarian or

 6     concern regarding humanitarian aid and distribution in January 1993 in

 7     Mostar?

 8        A.   I don't think my memory goes that far back in order to allow me

 9     to remember specific problems like that.  Whatever problems we had as a

10     humanitarian organisation we dealt with at meetings of our coordinating

11     committee and the committee did some really good work up until the

12     outbreak of clashes between the Croats and the Bosniaks in Mostar town

13     itself.

14        Q.   All right, sir.  Well, let me refresh your recollection and I'm

15     going to show you a report from the British Battalion of United Nations,

16     dated 22nd January 1993, and it's regarding these meetings in where the

17     organisation, yourself or someone else from your organisation at the ICRC

18     attended with the ODPR.  This is Exhibit P 01259.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Before we move to the next exhibit, Your Honour, I

20     don't mean to disrupt too much, but we've been looking at a document that

21     has not been admitted into evidence as an exhibit that is 1D 01427, and

22     it is one page, as we can see.

23             Now, a similar -- the same document, the same document with two

24     pages has been admitted.  So the second page -- this one document that is

25     being -- that was shown doesn't have, and that is 1D 01522.  I take it

Page 33582

 1     this was a -- 1522 is the one that has been admitted as an exhibit.  I

 2     take it this must be an oversight, but -- and this is for the record.  So

 3     perhaps that could be checked.  But 1522 is an exhibit.  1427 is not.

 4     1427 lacks the second page.

 5             The only reason I'm mentioning this is because I think it would

 6     be good if we are going to be showing documents to the witness it would

 7     be good to have the entire document in order for them to look at it to

 8     see whether they need to put it into context.

 9             MR. LONGONE:  Can I continue my cross-examination?  I appreciate

10     your reference to those documents and we're going to check it and come

11     back to it.

12        Q.   Sir we were referring to Exhibit P 01259 and you mentioned that

13     you didn't remember so I -- just for the benefit of refreshing your

14     recollection, I'm -- and remember which were the concerns of

15     international community at that time.

16             Do you have the exhibit in front of you, sir, now?

17        A.   Can you please repeat the number?  I have a lot of binders here,

18     but I'm fumbling around with so it's difficult for me to track all these

19     documents now.

20        Q.   Exhibit P 01259.  P 01259.  And at the end of -- you first have

21     the English version and behind it you have the B/C/S version, sir.

22        A.   Okay.  I've got that document now.

23        Q.   Paragraph 1 it refers to a meeting held at the UNHCR Split on the

24     morning of the 22nd January 1993, and from that meeting a series of

25     problems were pointed out by the people attending there and that

Page 33583

 1     apparently will affect the work of the humanitarian organisations and the

 2     distribution of humanitarian aid, among others.  And if you -- if you see

 3     paragraph second of the same document, sir, you see that there it says

 4     that the Mostar units CR field officer attended a meeting on Wednesday,

 5     20 January, chaired by Mr. Tadic, minister appointed by Mate Boban, to

 6     coordinate assistance in Herceg-Bosna.  Do you -- do you recall now

 7     Mr. Darinko Tadic -- Mr. Tadic, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And the paragraph continues saying the meeting included

10     municipality representatives from as far as field as Jablanica, Prozor,

11     Livno, Tomislavgrad, and Doboj, and the field officer was told that in

12     future all aid deliveries were to be made directly to the local

13     government and all aid deliveries were to be made directly -- sorry, not

14     to the theoretically ethnically neutral coordinating committee.

15             Sir, do you remember that there were concerns by the Merhamet and

16     by the other participants, international organisations on that committee,

17     of all the neutrality of that committee, of that coordinating committee

18     at that time?

19        A.   If you will allow me, sir, this is the report from the second

20     meeting, not from the one that we have just spoken about.  So that I

21     wouldn't know what meeting that was.  This was on the 20th of January,

22     probably of the same year.  Yes, it was.  And there were representatives

23     of other municipalities.  There were no representatives of Mostar there.

24     So I don't know what the reason was for this statement, for this

25     reaction, or for any kind of conclusion.  And as far as the work of our

Page 33584

 1     coordination committee is concerned, it worked really well and I told you

 2     up until when.  We had an absolute coordination and in my diary you can

 3     find all information or notes on -- as to how many, when we held

 4     meetings, who was present, and what were the topics of the conversations

 5     at our meetings.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  Sir, just to make sure, because this

 7     meeting was attended by all international representatives or -- sorry,

 8     field offices working in the southern Bosnia region which include Mostar

 9     and my question about regarding humanitarian issues was not only related

10     to the beginning of January 1993, but I asked you in January 1993 before.

11     So do you remember any concern regarding the neutrality of that

12     theoretically ethnic neutral coordinating committee in Mostar?

13        A.   I can't see anywhere here that the theoretically ethnically

14     biased coordination committee relates to Mostar.  I really don't know

15     what you're asking me.

16        Q.   Sir, let's continue with paragraph 2.  After this meeting called

17     by Mr. Darinko Tadic, it says that the implication of this is that the

18     UNHCR would be delivering to only one faction, HVO, and relying on that

19     faction to pass and share to the others the humanitarian aid basically.

20     There is no much confidence that this would happen at present, and as

21     ever no concern was shown by the HVO for the fate of the Muslims.

22             Do you recall, sir, that there were problems about the

23     distribution of humanitarian aid and the concerns of the Merhamet and the

24     international organisations?

25        A.   Believe me, I've never seen this document before, and it's very

Page 33585

 1     hard for me to see any of the things that you are talking about.  If you

 2     want any information about the work of the committee I can only repeat

 3     the details from my testimony yesterday and the day before yesterday, and

 4     that's all I know with regard to any other activities, but the

 5     coordination committees existed in Livno and some other municipalities,

 6     and Mostar was not the only municipality that had such a body.

 7        Q.   All right, sir.  I'm going to continue refreshing your

 8     recollection.  The consumption of aid, this is not a new problem says the

 9     report.  The consumption of aid put into municipality warehouse by a

10     coordinating committee -- sir --

11        A.   I apologise.  Could you please direct me to the part from which

12     you're reading?  I'd like to be able to follow if that's not a problem.

13        Q.   Of course it's not a problem.  It's paragraph second.  We are

14     still on para second of that same exhibit, sir.  And the last part of

15     paragraph second says the concerns about the neutral -- theoretical

16     ethnically neutral coordinating committees.  It says, "This is not a new

17     problem the consumption of aid put into municipality warehouse by a

18     coordinating committee has always been difficult to ascertain.

19             "A significant quantity general favours one side, reaches one or

20     more army and the black market, as well as supports refugees.  This

21     limitation on delivery could be expected to apply throughout the area

22     designated as provinces 8 and 10 in the proposed Geneva agreement.  The

23     office was also informed that if UNHCR declined to comply with this

24     instruction," delivering the aid to the HVO government to Mr. Tadic, "The

25     HVO would close the border at Matkovic to UNHCR traffic."

Page 33586

 1             And, sir, if you go to paragraph 3.  Sir, if you go to paragraph

 2     3 of the same exhibit --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  What is -- why do you

 4     want to intervene, Mr. Praljak?

 5             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It is my wish to read

 6     everything.  We keep on dwelling upon the first page and it's very hard

 7     for any of us to know what this is all about.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  And perhaps while we're looking at that first

 9     page, Your Honour, paragraph 2, perhaps my learned friend could point to

10     the gentleman the part about Doboj and whether representatives from Doboj

11     would have been there, recognising where Doboj was and still remains but

12     who was occupying Doboj at the time, whether representatives for Doboj

13     from Doboj would have been in Mostar at that time.

14             MR. LONGONE:  Shall I continue with my cross-examination?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.  However,

16     Mr. Registrar, can you make sure that you move the B/C/S text to the

17     right place so that the accused can see the entire document in their

18     language especially paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 so they have an overall view of

19     the entire document.  Yes, proceed, Mr. Longone.

20             MR. LONGONE:

21        Q.   So in paragraph 3 of the same exhibit the last sentence of

22     paragraph 3 starting with HVO.  Do you see that, sir?  [B/C/S spoken].

23     Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, but I really did not participate in such meetings.

25     Everything I might say from now on would be just taking things out of the

Page 33587

 1     context and telling you stories that I really don't know.  Any assistance

 2     that I received from anybody I made sure that it was ready for

 3     distribution, and this is something that happened before any aid entered

 4     the territory and I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about that.

 5        Q.   Sir, you were the Red Cross representative for Mostar from 1992

 6     June till 1998.  You continued working in the Red Cross until 2003.  I'm

 7     not asking whether you participated in this meeting now.  My question was

 8     whether you were aware of the concerns of the distribution of

 9     humanitarian aid and in this respect, sir, I'm going to read you that

10     last sentence that you already have identified:

11             "HVO members in Mostar have threatened to blow up the UNHCR

12     office if they continue to supply Muslims."

13        A.   I've never heard this before, and I've never seen it before, of

14     course.  UNHCR was a permanent partner of the Red Cross and all the other

15     of humanitarian organisations that were active in the coordination

16     committee, and we -- the -- the reaction at this meeting never reflected

17     on our further work never before the month of April, the month of May

18     when this reaction was connected with the conflict.

19        Q.   Sir, in this report they are referring to threats to the UNHCR

20     personnel and to the delivery of, you know, affecting basically the

21     delivery of humanitarian aid.  Do you remember any incident either in

22     January or in February where the UNHCR has been attacked or that you can

23     tell that those threats were actually took place in Mostar or around

24     Mostar?  You were dealing with humanitarian aid at that time.  Do you

25     remember anything?

Page 33588

 1        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 2        Q.   Let's go to Exhibit P 01462.  This -- 01462.  All right.  Well,

 3     let's continue.  Sir, my apologies.  Let's continue with the following

 4     exhibit.  Do you find it there, do you know?

 5        A.   No.  No.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7        A.   [In English] This is only two.  [Interpretation] I have not been

 8     able to locate the relevant document.

 9        Q.   We will come back to it.  Thank you very much, sir.  Let's focus

10     on the -- on the decrees -- on the decisions taken on the 15 and 29

11     April, 1993, sir.  Those were exhibits P 01894.  P 01894.  Yes?

12        A.   [In English] Yes.  [Interpretation] I have the document, yes.

13        Q.   You have -- this is the decision from the municipality of Mostar

14     regarding the changing on the status of refugees and expellees.  We

15     have -- you have discussed this decision before in the courtroom.  Do you

16     remember now?

17        A.   About this decision, yes, I'm aware of it.  I remember it.

18        Q.   And, sir, in that decision is this true that you had to

19     distribute the humanitarian aid, the Herceg-Bosna, Red Cross from Mostar

20     had to distribute the humanitarian aid according to this decision and to

21     this criteria?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And, sir, they said in that decision, in point III, that

24     previously issued cards cease to be valid and new family card will be

25     issued in the Mostar Centre For Social Work, isn't it?

Page 33589

 1        A.   That's how I read it, yes.

 2        Q.   And, sir, basically people that were located in abandoned flats

 3     at that time, the refugees and expellees that were occupying abandoned

 4     flats in Mostar, they had to leave those flats and move to collective

 5     centres, isn't it, by this decision?

 6        A.   According to this decision, only the internally displaced

 7     persons, i.e., those who were able to return to their liberated homes, to

 8     put it that way.  It applied to them.  They were supposed to return to

 9     their original places of residence.  It did not apply to the refugees and

10     expellees proper.

11        Q.   And, sir, and they have 15 days, or it was -- it would take 15

12     days to apply this decision -- to comply with this decision, isn't it?

13        A.   Well, if it's in the text, then I suppose that --

14        Q.   Yes?

15        A.   -- that's true.

16        Q.   Sorry, sir.  It's para IV of that decision.  If you see it at the

17     end of para IV of the that decision it says items listed in that decision

18     shall be done within 15 days of the adoption of this decision.

19        A.   I don't see it.  I don't know.

20        Q.   Para IV?

21        A.   I see it but I don't know what you question is, and I don't know

22     how to answer the question.

23        Q.   My question was would you agree with me, sir, that in para IV it

24     says that this decision will be implemented or done within 15 days of the

25     date of adoption of it?  Isn't it?

Page 33590

 1        A.   Every decision that was valid had its implementation deadline and

 2     an institution that was in charge of its implementation.  That's why all

 3     this information is contained within the body of this text as well.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prlic.

 5             THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] I really don't want to

 6     intervene, but this is going beyond any point.  For the second time the

 7     witness is asked something that is not reflected in the text.  I'm

 8     reading the text like everybody else in the courtroom, and in Article IV

 9     you can see that it refers to schools very clearly, that people have to

10     move out of the schools within 15 days.  In his question the Prosecutor

11     distorts that, just like a while ago and on page 15, line 19, he himself

12     reading that text of the Exhibit P 01259, he read the HVO government

13     although the word government does not exist in the text.

14             I would kindly ask the Prosecutor to adhere to the text when

15     putting his questions, because the record does not reflect the veracity

16     of the exhibits that we have before us at the same time.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, Mr. Prlic

18     points out that paragraph IV of the decision refers to schools and that

19     there was a deadline of 14 days, but that would apply to schools.  Does

20     this change anything to your approach?

21             MR. LONGONE:  Maybe -- maybe if you read -- if we read para IV,

22     it clearly refers to paragraph I, II, and III.  So basically people that

23     are living in abandoned flats or any other places between the --

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Longone.  I wonder whether you

25     are not in an unnecessary error, as it were.  You quote paragraph IV or

Page 33591

 1     numeral IV as Mr. Karnavas calls them, Roman IV.  Wouldn't V be more

 2     germane to this issue?

 3             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   And para V of that decision, sir, it says that:

 5             "This decision shall enter into effect on the date of its

 6     adoption and shall be implemented as of 15 April 1993."

 7             Do you see that, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.

10             MR. LONGONE:  And thank you very much, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Perhaps one -- if you allow.  May I just -- I'm

12     sorry.  Perhaps it's the same.

13             15th of April.  That is the same day the decision is signed.  Is

14     that -- is that correct?  Would you agree?  I mean, you don't have to

15     agree because that's what we read here, unless you know doing else.  Have

16     you known about this decision?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was aware of this decision

18     and the implementation of this decision was not as fast as it was

19     originally conceived.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That is very plausible indeed.  Can you say more

21     about the implementation?  I'm sorry if I'm stepping on your feet.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I have a problem

23     with the relevance of this exhibit.  Indeed you mentioned the date of the

24     entry into force of the decision, but in paragraph or Article IV, we are

25     talking about buildings reserved for school purposes.  I don't

Page 33592

 1     understand.  So where is your point with regard to the date of entry into

 2     force of the decision regarding the expulsion of individuals, or does it

 3     have to do with the use of the premises?

 4             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  My point is that

 5     this is a decision passed on the 15 April 1993, and basically it's saying

 6     that cards for these refugees and expellees, they're going to -- they

 7     list who they're going to receive or they're only going to be issued to

 8     persons who are not staying in abandoned flats or apartments in Mostar.

 9             So basically they have to leave those flats those expellees and

10     refugees in order to get the refugee card, which is going to be issued in

11     the Mostar Centre for Social Work, and the ones that cannot go somewhere

12     else, they have to be there, they are going to be accommodated in those

13     schools which the witness yesterday in cross-examination or during -- I

14     think in cross-examination with one of counsel said that he didn't

15     remember whether in January -- whether in May 1993 the people were going

16     to school or not.

17             And at the end, as Judge Trechsel pointed out, clearly they have

18     a very limited time to comply with this decision.  These are people in

19     need, and we were referring to the fact -- the witness referred that

20     there were 30.000 or 38.000 people in Mostar, that there were more than

21     8.000 refugees, children and women, and they were given such a short

22     period of time to get out of these apartments.  That's the relevance of

23     this.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Let me try to be of some assistant here to all

25     the parties and to the establishment of the truth.  We must distinguish

Page 33593

 1     two things, obviously, and I come back to you, Witness.

 2             We have this issue of the schools, and there there's a deadline

 3     of 14 -- 15 days until which the school must be vacated.

 4             In paragraph V, the entry into force is fixed as -- or, rather,

 5     the implementation as of 15 April.  It does not mean -- it does not say

 6     by 15 April but as of, and maybe the interpreters can assist in

 7     explaining whether there is this difference in the original text.  But I

 8     have asked a question of the witness which then was passed under the

 9     carpet, and I'll draw it from the carpet.

10             I'll ask you, Mr. Simunovic, can you give us an indication as to

11     whether and, if so, in what time space this decision was actually

12     implemented as far as apartments are concerned and as far as schools are

13     concerned, please?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, Your Honour, I

15     would like to give you my perspective of this decision, what its

16     intention was, especially from the point of view of my position and need

17     to distribute the humanitarian aid to those in need.

18             This was the time when there wasn't --

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Simunovic, but we have to keep in

20     order, and I would like you to answer my question, which does not go to

21     the explanation of why these were, but how did the implementation run?

22     Was it implemented, and by which time, at what catence for both

23     eventualities, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the exact indicators.

25     I can't tell you because it was a long time ago, but I know that

Page 33594

 1     displaced persons from the territory of the municipality referred to

 2     under item II, those were internally displaced persons.  They were not

 3     refugees and expellees.  Anybody who was able to return to their

 4     abandoned homes did so, or they filed a request to help them with

 5     construction and building materials or in any other way or form to help

 6     them prepare their house for return.

 7             The implementation of this decision for the category of users

 8     under II was launched on this date, and the implementation lasted for a

 9     while after that.

10             And it says under III that the IDs were withdrawn and that people

11     would be renew -- reissued new IDs, which is only normal, if they return

12     to their original place of residence.

13             As far as item IV is concerned, it applied exclusively --

14     exclusively to the refugees, expellees who were accommodated in

15     collective accommodation, i.e., in schools and other educational

16     facilities.

17             The reason was the beginning of that school year an urgent

18     reaction was called for.  However, the Prosecutor, in his questions, said

19     that people who left these facilities wouldn't nowhere to be

20     accommodated.  And it says clearly here that they would be accommodated

21     at other collective accommodation facilities, and that's how this

22     decision was implemented.

23             This decision refers to three categories of people, military --

24     militarily able-bodied men, internally displaced persons, and refugees

25     and expellees who were accommodated in collective accommodation.

Page 33595

 1             The decision came into force on this day, and its implementation

 2     was taking place for a while on the ground.  And let's just understand

 3     that 20 or so days after the issuing of this decision the conflict broke

 4     out.  So it is really questionable to which extent this decision could be

 5     implemented.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to put a

 7     question to you but from another perspective, seen from the respective

 8     authorities of the HVO and of the municipality.

 9             Let's look at this decision.  We shall notice that Mr. Topic

10     makes decisions that have to do with the fate of displaced people,

11     expellees, and refugees.

12             Paragraph number II, he says therein that people from Mostar --

13     or that in Mostar and that hail from other liberated municipalities have

14     to return to their own municipalities.  So Mr. Topic was of the view that

15     he had the power to regulate the movements of people.

16             Such a decision, was that not within the purview of the HVO

17     government, which had another authority than that of a municipal body

18     that sees problems only from the perspective of the municipality?  Here,

19     however, we can see that Mr. Topic takes it on himself to say that a

20     refugee hailing, say, from Jablanica, a Croat, would have to return to

21     Jablanica if Jablanica was liberated.  That's just an example.

22             So looking at this document, I wonder what is the scope of the

23     powers of the HVO government and of the municipality.

24             You were in Mostar, and you had a position within the Red Cross.

25     And who had the last word, the final word on the issue of displaced

Page 33596

 1     persons, expellees, and refugees?  Was it the municipality or was it the

 2     HVO government?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand what

 4     you're saying.  If we look at paragraph II of this decision, the entire

 5     text here is in reference to persons from Mostar municipality.  Mr. Topic

 6     wasn't doing anything that was outside the framework of Mostar

 7     municipality.

 8             We look at paragraph IV.  Likewise, these were people who were

 9     put up within Mostar municipality in schools.

10             What this decision does, it makes sure they have sufficient

11     accommodation, again in Mostar municipality, but this time round at a

12     different location.

13             Therefore, this decision is only to be understood as the

14     responsibility of the person who had it adopted, and I don't believe that

15     in the case at hand the person that went beyond their powers or

16     authority.  And all of this is in reference to Mostar municipality alone.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

19        Q.   And, Witness, just to recap on this and to continue, you said you

20     have to apply this decision.  The Red Cross from Herceg-Bosna Mostar had

21     to apply this decision when distributing humanitarian aid.  That's what

22     you said before, isn't it?

23        A.   I apologise.  As yesterday, I would really like to ask you one

24     thing.  When you're talking about the Mostar municipality Red Cross --

25        Q.   Excuse me sir.

Page 33597

 1        A.   Can you please just make --

 2        Q.   Excuse me, sir I am the one putting questions to you.  You are

 3     the witness and I'm the Prosecution and my question was just to recap on

 4     the issue that was discussed, you said you have to apply this decision

 5     from Mostar municipality in the distribution of humanitarian aid and you

 6     said yes, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And, sir --

 9        A.   I do apologise.  Perhaps you've got me wrong.

10        Q.   Sir, and in paragraph I, in order to get the card that will allow

11     you to get the humanitarian aid, you have to move out from abandoned

12     apartments, were not staying in abandoned apartments, isn't it?

13        A.   So cards for refugees and displaced persons were only awarded to

14     persons between 1 and 17 years of age.  Men over 60 years of age and

15     women over 55 years of age who were not staying in an abandoned flat and

16     had arrived from one of the occupied areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the

17     Republic of Croatia.  This card shall not be awarded to persons arriving

18     from elsewhere in Mostar municipality, from non-occupied areas of the

19     Republic of Croatia or Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20             It is stated here with the greatest of clarity what age group

21     this refers to and what type of accommodation these persons would be

22     entitled to.

23             This decision partly has to do with paragraph II as well.

24     Internally displaced persons living in abandoned flats were meant to go

25     back to their own original areas.  The rest of them were supposed to

Page 33598

 1     monitor the age group stated here.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  And if we can move now to Exhibit 1D

 3     01083.  1D -- that's in the small -- in that -- in that binder.  Yes,

 4     sir.  1D 01083.

 5             This exhibit was discussed early in this week with you, and it

 6     refers to -- to the issuing of refugee cards, but in this case it's not

 7     Mostar but is in Jablanica, and it's dated 19 March 1993.

 8             Sir, would you agree with me that in paragraph I of this order it

 9     says that:

10             "Until further notice, the Red Cross shall issue refugee cards

11     with temporary residence to refugees and displaced persons who are not

12     military conscripts and arrive in Jablanica municipality after ... the

13     order of 10 March 1993 ..."

14             It's referring that in this case, the Red Cross shall issue

15     refugee cards, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.  This is what was going on in Jablanica.  That's what the

17     document claims, and I have no reason to disbelieve what it says.

18        Q.   So basically in Mostar it was the social welfare office that will

19     distribute or will issue the refugee cards, and here in Jablanica was the

20     Red Cross.  That's what the difference are.

21        A.   Yes, this was done by one and the same person.  The gentleman who

22     was in charge of the Red Cross was a social worker in Jablanica

23     municipality at the same time.  Two positions, and one person alone,

24     Nedzad Mucic [phoen].

25        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, if we now go to the big binder, the one that

Page 33599

 1     bears the Prosecution exhibits.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before moving on to the next

 3     binder, Witness, there's something I don't understand.  Yesterday you

 4     said that the Red Cross was neutral, unbiased, impartial and so on.

 5             A certain criteria were to be abided by the Red Cross.  And we

 6     now have a document which states purportedly that the municipality has

 7     given the Red Cross some orders and has stated that some cards should not

 8     be given.

 9             If the Red Cross is impartial and independent, it's for the Red

10     Cross to hand out those cards according to its own criteria, not

11     according to the criteria of the municipality.

12             How can you explain this, that a municipality can give

13     instructions to the Red Cross on the way in which it needs to manage the

14     situation, i.e., people who are in difficulty for a number of reasons.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we compare the two

16     situations, Jablanica and Mostar, the number of persons in need differed

17     dramatically between the two.  The Mostar Red Cross had neither the

18     facilities necessary nor the professional staff that would have been

19     required to categorise all those who were in need of humanitarian aid.

20             We received our information from technically well-versed

21     institutions, professionals in the field, and we tried to get as much aid

22     for distribution to all the categories mentioned by those institutions.

23     Everything that had to do with aid for refugees, any aid that arrived

24     from the UNHCR.  It was the UNHCR that asked to speak to government

25     bodies, and we were merely a partner in charge of reception and

Page 33600

 1     distribution.

 2             We were also supposed to monitor the distribution process itself

 3     on the ground, made sure that everything was delivered to whichever local

 4     communes were involved, make sure the quantities were right and check all

 5     the files.  We saw yesterday how that was done.

 6             If I may, I would just like to say something else.  Being

 7     involved in the collection of humanitarian aid, it almost became a

 8     profession.  These people didn't have any other jobs.  But they went to

 9     all the places where they thought they could get something, get

10     humanitarian aid, in order to get it and deliver it to those in need.

11     There had to be some sort of order.  The Red Cross was not responsible

12     for keeping order.  Government institutions would have been.  The

13     authorities would have been.  The Red Cross never turned away anyone who

14     came seeking assistance whenever assistance was possible.

15             So if you ask me, these are two different matters.  I was not a

16     government official.  I was working for the Red Cross.  I was doing my

17     job.  People from the Mostar HVO were also doing their jobs.  And I think

18     they were doing their jobs well.

19             If you look at the cards, if you look at the files, if you look

20     at the way the records were kept, they did a very good job, and much of

21     their job was about helping us, helping us get on with our work and

22     helping us to turn away those who were only shamming they were in need.

23     Everybody wanted something.  It was difficult to tell if someone was just

24     shamming or someone was really a needy person.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, my question did not relate

Page 33601

 1     to the quality of your work.  I'm sure you had to face these different

 2     situations.  But the question I have is how could you receive orders from

 3     the municipality in this area?  That's what my question is about, because

 4     this document shows that the Red Cross needs to obey the orders.  You are

 5     neutral, impartial, independent.  This is what I find hard to understand.

 6             You've just told me that there were reasons for this.  I am

 7     prepared to acknowledge your reasons, but from the outside it's difficult

 8     to understand that a body like yours can receive orders from a

 9     municipality.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, Mr. President, perhaps the gentleman

11     may be looking at the wrong document.  I suspect that your question goes

12     to the Jablanica municipality document, which is 1D 01083.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  And perhaps in that context --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  My question was based on

16     document ID 1083.  Maybe you didn't have that right document in front of

17     you.

18             In this document the municipality gives instructions to the Red

19     Cross.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Incidentally, I happen to know

21     this, and I did say that a while ago.  The person who was in charge of

22     the Red Cross was the only official and the person responsible for social

23     welfare in Jablanica municipality.  I assume that that was the reason.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I understand better

25     now.

Page 33602

 1             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much, Your

 2     Honours.

 3        Q.   Sir, you mentioned yesterday that on the 9th of May when all the

 4     people -- the Bosnian Muslim population from Mostar was -- was arrested

 5     in the Heliodrom, you mentioned that you saw that on the TV, on the

 6     evening news; if I may recall, correct?

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  Are you sure that you want -- are

 8     you sure that you wanted to say that all the Muslims people were

 9     arrested?  I find that a bit going beyond what we've heard so far.

10             MR. LONGONE:

11        Q.   Bosnian Muslim people were transferred to the -- to the

12     Heliodrom.  And I remember you mentioned that you have seen that on the

13     news or on the TV.

14        A.   As I explained, I got more information from the evening news than

15     I had known the same morning when I came to work, and that's why I talked

16     about TV.

17        Q.   All right, sir.  And going back, we were discussing the concerns

18     about the distribution of humanitarian aid, highlighted or -- by the

19     international organisations, and the threats posed to UNHCR workers,

20     humanitarian aid workers, and references to Mr. Darinko Tadic.  And, sir,

21     do you remember what happened after this decision that we were discussing

22     from changing the refugee status of -- changing the refugee status in

23     Mostar, whether it was any public appeal on the TV or in the radio

24     regarding this -- this decision and the effect of this decision?  Do you

25     recall anything, sir?

Page 33603

 1        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 2        Q.   So let me refresh are your recollection.  Let's go to Exhibit

 3     P 01941.  Do you have the exhibit, sir?

 4        A.   1941, yes.

 5        Q.   All right, sir.  And this -- this document is dated 18 April

 6     1993, so three days after the decision changing the status of refugees in

 7     Mostar.  It's dated Siroki Brijeg, 18 April 1993.  It's addressed to all

 8     Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, radio and television

 9     stations.  And if you see at the end of that document, at the bottom of

10     the B/C/S version of it, it says, "Mr. Darinko Tadic, Department Head."

11     And basically, sir, let me read the first part of this document to assist

12     to refresh your recollection:

13              "At a time when the Croatian people are under attack by those to

14     whom the Croatian people have extend the hand of salvation, have cared

15     for, protected, fed and housed in the Republic of Croatia and the area of

16     the Herceg-Bosna community, hundreds of thousands of Muslim mothers,

17     children, the elderly and frail, now in return for all this, their

18     fathers and brothers are destroying and burning Croatian homes, and their

19     families killing our women, elderly and frail.

20              "For this reason it is realistic to expect a large number of

21     Croats from Central Bosnia and Northern Herzegovina seeking safety,

22     fleeing before terror.  We want to use this opportunity to appeal and

23     call on all people who have compassion for the suffering and miseries of

24     the Croats from the areas at risk to make themselves known if they are

25     able to offer shelter and simply help our people."

Page 33604

 1             And the document goes on saying that they can apply for helping

 2     them with the office of expelled -- ODPR, basically, the HVO office in

 3     Siroki Brijeg and in Mostar.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, at this point, I would object to any

 5     questions following from this particular document if he's trying to link

 6     it up earlier.  Firstly he said let me refresh your recollection, and I

 7     suggest that you cannot refresh a recollection unless one has a

 8     recollection.  He's indicated he didn't remember and, of course, he never

 9     stated anything and this document has nothing to do with the gentleman.

10             Secondly, it has nothing to do with April 15th.  This April 15th

11     implementation of that particular decision, what does it have to do with

12     this particular document?  Absolutely nothing.  So how is he able to link

13     one to the other and then dare say, "Let me refresh your recollection."

14             Now, perhaps he wishes to ask another line of questions, which

15     may be perfectly fine, but I don't think that you can rely -- you can

16     link one with the other.  And of course we don't know where this went to.

17     And it doesn't show that it went to the gentleman.

18             If, for instance, this document had gone to the Mostar municipal

19     Red Cross, you may be able to say, "Well, did you look at it, and if so,

20     does this refresh your recollection?"  But not only does it not have

21     anything as far as the distribution list, but also if you look at the

22     original, Your Honours, you will see that there's no signature to this.

23     There's no stamp.  There's nothing.  Who created this document?  How it

24     came about, who knows?  But I don't think that this is proper

25     cross-examination.

Page 33605

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Longone, what did you do --

 2     what did you want to do exactly?  Did you want to refresh his memory,

 3     address another topic?  Personally, I'm not quite sure what you wanted to

 4     do.

 5             MR. LONGONE:  Sir, we are going to get into that part of the --

 6     of the cross-examination, but basically what I was asking the witness

 7     from the very beginning is about the concerns that international

 8     community have about the situation of humanitarian aid and about the

 9     situation in Mostar; and he didn't remember anything about the concerns

10     that were highlighted by the UNHCR, although he has been working for

11     UNHCR and in contact with them as he has recognised it all the time.  We

12     are talking about now of people being move out from flats in Mostar

13     and -- there are a lot of refugees, Bosnian Muslim refugees in Mostar who

14     have to reapply again and move out of the flats in order to get some

15     cards, in order to get some humanitarian aid, and we have this public

16     appeal referring to the fact that some people -- that many refugees

17     from -- from Central Bosnia and from the north of Herzegovina are being

18     called to come, to take refuge.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Again, this is a mischaracterisation of the

20     document.  And if I may use one word:  Serendipity.  It could be that

21     there's just a timing of situations happening one place and another

22     situation happening in another and to try to link it as if one has

23     something to do with the other, I think is a far stretch.

24             MR. LONGONE:  Sir -- Your Honours, if I can continue with the

25     cross-examination and Your Honours will see where I'm trying to go with

Page 33606

 1     this.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just one moment.

 4     There's something which I disagree about, because you said that this is

 5     an appeal launched to the Croats so that they come and settle in Mostar

 6     or somewhere else.

 7             On reading this document, I don't read that into the document at

 8     all.  Maybe you wish to link this document with ethnic cleansing with

 9     hindsight, or the other way around.  Is that what you wanted to check out

10     with this witness?

11             MR. LONGONE:  Sir -- Your Honour, we referred to this -- my

12     apologies.  We referred to this meeting in January -- at the end of

13     January 1993 regarding the concerns of the UNHCR and the threats, and

14     basically this document clearly is addressing the people -- the Bosnian

15     Croat people from Central Bosnia and northern of Herzegovina, and is

16     referring to the people that the Bosnian Croats have -- the Muslim people

17     that they have taken care of and saying that now their fathers and

18     brothers, they are killing them.  And I just want to -- to address what

19     was the situation in the ground at that time.  I mean, all -- all

20     these -- Witness.  All these definitely would have an impact in the work

21     of the people distributing humanitarian aid, in the threatens to the

22     people distributing humanitarian aid and in the refugees that are in and

23     around the territory controlled by the Herceg-Bosna authorities, isn't

24     it?

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, this is collective thinking.  I mean,

Page 33607

 1     and I object to this line of questioning.

 2             Let's assume -- let's assume for the sake of argument that this

 3     document is authentic, and let's assume that this individual wrote this

 4     document, and I find nothing so horrendous about it; but to suggest now

 5     that the Croats who are distributing aid would now not distribute aid to

 6     non-Croats as a result of this appeal or events that are happening some

 7     place, and to lump them all into one I think is rather outrageous and

 8     egregious, and I don't think that the gentleman has provided any

 9     foundation for this.  It's not relevant and unless he can show some

10     relevance or foundation, and we should just move on.

11             MR. LONGONE:  Sir, could --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your question and then

13     we'll see.  I'm listening to both parties as a Judge.  I'm totally lost.

14     Put your question and then we'll see.

15             MR. LONGONE:

16        Q.   Witness, is there any link between Bosnians -- moving Bosnians

17     out and Bosnian Croats in, in Mostar?

18        A.   I don't know that anything like that was going on, but if I may

19     by Your Honours' leave, the Prosecutor is asking me to have my memory

20     jogged, and then we talked about what went on at Heliodrom, and then this

21     document takes us back a month, and then they were asking me whether I

22     saw something on TV or whether I saw something on radio.  Believe me, I'm

23     confused myself.

24             I've never seen this document before.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that you've

Page 33608

 1     never seen the document.  Whatever the case may be, it's time to have a

 2     break now.  It is 5.00.  We shall have a 30-minute break, but my

 3     colleague would like to put a question before the break.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think are -- Mr. Simunovic --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I pressed the button.  I have a blinking

 7     green light.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge, please.  We cannot hear

 9     him.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Now it's okay.  And I didn't do anything to make

11     it okay.  That came from the ...

12             Witness, I think that you have not seen this document.  It's not

13     surprising, because it has been addressed to radio and TV stations, and

14     as far as we've heard so far, you, yourself, were neither.  The question

15     is whether you have heard about it, be it directly by listening to the

16     radio, watching TV, be it indirectly by hearsay, by other people telling

17     you, "Did you hear?"  "I heard on the radio."

18             Have you, in this indirect, perhaps, way have any knowledge of

19     this appeal?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Hvala ljepo.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have our one and only

23     break for this afternoon now.

24                           --- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 5.31 p.m.

Page 33609

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you may

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. LONGONE:

 4        Q.   Sir, going back to Exhibit P 02151.

 5        A.   02151, yes.  Is that the exhibit?

 6        Q.   And this is an exhibit that you have been put before, sir, and

 7     it's referring to the reasons why the Merhamet were pulling out from

 8     Mostar, coordinating committee.  And it refers to -- to the decree that

 9     we have discussed before, the Mostar -- the Mostar decision regarding the

10     changing on the refugee status.  And, sir, I will address you to the

11     exposition of the reasons and number 3 of it, and the second para --

12     third para after -- under that -- that point it states that:

13             "The realisation of the third predominantly important goal, the

14     relocation of the displaced and expelled homeless people in this way," in

15     the way of that decree, "is not only unlawful but also contrary to the

16     general principles of humanitarianism and public conscience."

17             Do you remember, sir, in your meetings with the Merhamet any

18     reference to these concern from them about the Mostar decree -- Mostar

19     decision of April 1993?

20        A.   The problems regarding the implementation of the decision were

21     considered at the coordination committee meetings and certain activities

22     pertaining to our conclusions were incorporated into our subsequent

23     decision.

24             This conclusion in its written form was never the subject of

25     discussions at any meetings, and Mr. Sahovic as representative at that

Page 33610

 1     meeting said that if the decision were to be implemented to the letter,

 2     and he was referring to the first decision, that they would consider

 3     further possibilities for Merhamet remaining on the coordination

 4     committee.

 5             I saw this document for the first time as I was proofed for this

 6     testimony and again today, now.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, when you're referring to the meeting that you have with

 8     the Merhamet, that's the same date, the 30 April 1993?  To that meeting

 9     you refer to?

10        A.   Yes.  I meant that meeting, yes.

11        Q.   Sir, we have seen a couple of documents referring to the Merhamet

12     and to the people working for the Merhamet.  Have you ever heard that

13     they were harassed or they have problems when complying with their

14     mandate?

15        A.   As far as I know, no.  I never received any information with this

16     regard, but I would like to say that the mandate of Merhamet differed

17     very much from the mandate of the Red Cross.  I don't want to put the two

18     organisations at the same level and given the same status.  And it is

19     very important when distinguishing between the reactions on the part of

20     the two organisations.

21        Q.   Sir, my question was if you recall any harassment to the people

22     of the Merhamet.  I don't want to compare with the Red Cross in Mostar.

23     Do you recall anything about it, any concern flagged by them in the

24     meetings you had with them?

25        A.   No.

Page 33611

 1        Q.   So I want to show you Exhibit P 03461.  And do you have the

 2     exhibit, sir?  P 03461.

 3        A.   03461, yes.

 4        Q.   And this is a document from the military police, 6th Company of

 5     the 1st Battalion, dated 15 July 1993.  And it refers that on 15 July

 6     1993, the vehicle and the telefax machine from Merhamet, in Ljubuski all

 7     goods has been ceased and handed over to the Criminal Investigative

 8     Service.  Do you remember anything of that, sir, the seizing of goods of

 9     the Merhamet at that time?

10        A.   I apologise.  I cooperated with the Merhamet of Mostar and I have

11     no knowledge of any such thing.  I've never heard this before or seen --

12     seen it.

13             If the Prosecutor will allow me to say something that I would

14     like to say about the Red Cross organisation.  I've been inspired by this

15     particular document.  If you allow me.

16             The premises of the Red Cross in Mostar were broken into three

17     times between 1993 and 1996, and every time the complete documentation

18     was destroyed as well as the computers.  Their cars were stolen and so on

19     and so forth.  In other words, humanitarian organisations were often

20     targeted because people believed that they had money, food, and other

21     such things.

22             What I'm saying is that I'm not establishing any links with what

23     is contained herein, but I am just saying that we also had problems with

24     people who looked at the whole situation in a somewhat different way.

25             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we

Page 33612

 1     have the same situation again.  The question implied something that

 2     really doesn't have anything to do with the document.  My learned friend

 3     asked literally whether the witness remembered some situations of

 4     harassment, that people were harassed, that people -- the officials of

 5     Merhamet were harassed.

 6             This document cannot have nothing to do with harassment, because

 7     anything can be behind this document.  The first could be a criminal

 8     procedure or any other such thing.

 9             There's no harassment here because this is done by legal organs

10     who write their legal reports.  It's very difficult to assume that this

11     could be harassment.

12             Second of all, they did not intervene against people from

13     Merhamet.  They took their vehicle and their telefax, and it transpires

14     from this note that this was the kind of intervention that the Crime

15     Prevention Service is often engaged in as part of their criminal

16     investigation.  So there's no way we would talk about harassment.  By

17     putting the question in that way it was suggested to the witness that

18     this was a case of harassment or ill-treatment of the Merhamet officials.

19     That's how I understood the question, and this does not arise from this

20     document.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, if you speak of

22     harassment, I suppose you have a series of facts in mind to support this.

23     They have to be ascertained and approved by the witness.

24             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you, sir, and --

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may add a question.  I must confess I find

Page 33613

 1     this document very cryptic, because it says, "assisting criminal

 2     investigation."  What kind of investigation?  Against whom?  Against --

 3     against Merhamet, or did Merhamet complain that it was stolen, and then

 4     it was found somewhere and seized with a view to handing it back?  I find

 5     this completely inconclusive, and unless you can put it in a context so

 6     we can understand what it really means, I'm afraid it's -- it's pretty

 7     useless.  I'm sorry.

 8             MR. LONGONE:

 9        Q.   Sir, we were referring to the activity of the Merhamet, and if

10     you see -- we have seen Exhibit 1D 2572.  It's from the first binder, the

11     small binder from the Defence.  Yes.  That one.  1D 2572.  And you

12     have -- you remember that you -- you mentioned -- you saw this document

13     before, and you mentioned that you knew Mr. Zijad Demirovic.

14        A.   Just partially.  I did not see the document, but I knew the

15     gentleman who signed it.

16        Q.   Do you know what happened with Mr. Zijad Demirovic was assisting

17     the Merhamet here in the -- in the entering and the distribution of some

18     humanitarian aid to the Muslims of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to this line of

20     questioning.  First of all, one has nothing to do with the other.  He's

21     trying to tie in somehow that Mr. Demirovic, because he was assisting in

22     Merhamet, something happened to him.  The gentleman happened to be the

23     head of the regional office of the SDA, which is the Muslim political

24     party.

25             I do object to this.  You cannot link one with the other.

Page 33614

 1             MR. LONGONE:  Your Honours.  Your Honours, yesterday the witness

 2     said that he found quite improper that the -- a member of the SDA was

 3     also a member of the Merhamet and assisting or working on -- with

 4     humanitarian aid.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I like to see the page number and the line for

 6     that.  He never indicated that Mr. Demirovic was working for Merhamet.

 7     He indicated quite clearly that he was the head of the regional SDA.

 8     That was -- and then there was a question from Judge Trechsel.  This

 9     occurred on Monday.

10             So I would like to have the page where there is that claim.  And

11     while we're at it, it should be noted that this is the Office Of

12     Displaced Persons and Refugees and the seeds are coming from Croatia,

13     from Ploce and going through.

14             MR. LONGONE:

15        Q.   Sir -- sir, on page 33468, line 8 until line 11 of your

16     testimony, you said:

17             "To tell you the truth, I have never seen this document before,

18     and I found it -- I find it very illogical to see direct involvement,

19     direct involvement of a political party in the work of a humanitarian

20     organisation.  That never happened with our organisation."

21             That's what you said, sir.  My question, sir, is do you know what

22     happened with Mr. Demirovic in 1993, after May 4, 1993?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Now, sir, let's go to Exhibit 1D 02721.  This is a document from

25     Stolac, dated 13 July 1992, and they are referring to the appointment of

Page 33615

 1     a board for the collection of humanitarian aid.  All this board for

 2     collecting humanitarian aid.  And you see among the people in the board

 3     is the Merhamet.  You have the Red Cross from Stolac, the Merhamet, and

 4     Caritas, isn't it?

 5        A.   That's what I see in the document, yes.

 6        Q.   And, sir, do you know Mehmed Kapic?

 7        A.   I don't know a single person from this list.

 8        Q.   Sir, so I would like to point you now to Exhibit P 04838.  This

 9     document is from the Military Police Administration, dated 6 September

10     1993.

11             Do you have the document with you, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I've found it.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... do you see there, sir, that

14     Dr. Mehmed Kapic is being transferred from the district prison in Gabela

15     to the central military prison in Ljubuski?  Do you see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17        Q.   And, sir, in -- I will address you to Exhibit P 76 -- P 07605.

18     7605.  This document is -- did you find it?  It is possible that it is a

19     bit further.  There are a lot of documents on the other side as well.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, it's not in the

21     binder.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't got that one.

23             MR. KHAN:  It's not in the binder.

24             MR. LONGONE:

25        Q.   Can you please look at e-court, sir?  You have the document in

Page 33616

 1     e-court.  My apologies if it's not in the binder.  I will verify what is

 2     not in the binder in the break.

 3             Sir, if you see in the document, it's dated 25 January 1994, and

 4     this is a letter referring to -- to a letter from -- addressed to

 5     Mate Boban and from the Croatian authorities referring to a letter

 6     received from a representative from the European parliament,

 7     Dr. Arie Oostalander, who is a politically very highly-placed person and

 8     who is a friend of Croatia.

 9             And in this letter he's saying that he's requesting the

10     authorities of Croatia to intervene for a group of Muslim intellectuals

11     imprisoned in Ljubuski.  This is in 25th January 1994.  And according to

12     what he says in the letter, he says that he's convinced that those

13     people, that the European representative, are innocent and that the Croat

14     authorities have been holding them unlawfully?

15             And in the list of people there, sir, you have Mr. Mehmed Kapic,

16     and you have Zijad Demirovic.  Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... those are the people working

19     for Merhamet, isn't it?

20        A.   This is just one of the people.  Mr. Kapic also worked for

21     Merhamet.  Mr. Demirovic was in the party, as far as I can tell based on

22     the document.

23             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another

24     objection.  Again the document has been misinterpreted by the

25     Prosecution.  My learned friend says that in the letter it says that the

Page 33617

 1     persons in the list, if they are innocent, that they should be released,

 2     and this is a misquote.

 3             In the letter, in the second paragraph before the names, it says

 4     and I quote -- and I can't see it in the English version, I must admit.

 5     Maybe it is.  It says in the Croatian version:

 6             "I would like to ask you to use your authority to remove any

 7     doubt that this was arbitrary and unlawful act and to release these

 8     people if they are innocent."

 9             Therefore, the intervention that arrived in Croatia contained

10     information about some sort of proceedings.  In this case this was a

11     criminal proceedings which we saw in the previous documents.  It doesn't

12     say anywhere that these people are innocent and they should be released.

13     There is a reservation expressed here, a doubt in the words, "if they are

14     innocent, they should be released."

15             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't

16     like to jump the gun or act in haste, but I believe that the Prosecution

17     is trying to draw a conclusion that this was a person which was

18     imprisoned unlawfully.  The previous document that the Prosecution showed

19     us calls for the transfer from the district prison in order to undertake

20     some investigation proceedings.  In the there is P 07533 which contains a

21     worth by Mr. Biskic which refers to Mr. Kapic, who is referred to in here

22     in which it says that an investigation has been launched against the

23     gentleman before the competent court and before the investigation is over

24     he cannot say whether the person is innocent or not, and in the spirit of

25     what His Honour Trechsel said, just a little while ago, I'd like to say

Page 33618

 1     that we lack a whole plethora of data that would allow us to construct a

 2     conclusion.  We have to know whether there was indeed an investigation,

 3     how it was carried out and what the outcome of the investigation was.  We

 4     can't tell that based on the two documents that have been presented to

 5     us, and I don't see fit to draw any conclusions without any further

 6     documents.

 7             Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two remarks, Prosecutor.  The

 9     document 4838 signed by Mr. Coric mentions criminal investigating

10     procedures against Mr. Kapic and his -- the latter's transfer is

11     requested, for him to be transferred to the military investigation centre

12     in Ljubuski.  That's the first document in September.

13             Several months later, in January, on the 25th of January, 1994, a

14     Croatian deputy wrote to Mr. Boban to speak about a group of Muslim

15     intellectuals, including Kapic, who, from what the deputy says, were

16     innocent and unlawfully detained, but the deputy being a cautious man

17     said that -- or invited Mr. Boban to use his authority, but he's cautious

18     enough to say "if they are innocent."  So there it is.  [In English] "If

19     they are innocent."  [Interpretation] That's in the text.  So that's the

20     situation as it is.

21             So please proceed.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, I would like to -- to add an observation

23     that I can't help making.  I find it rather surprising that the chief of

24     the military police within, apparently, allegedly criminal

25     investigations, asks a military commander for the transfer of these

Page 33619

 1     prisoners from one prison to another.  He does not order so.  He does not

 2     ask the public prosecutor or a judge but the military commander.  I think

 3     the witness is probably not the proper witness to make -- give any

 4     explanations, but I thought it was necessary to be transparent, to convey

 5     these questions and this puzzlement to whoever is listening.  Thank you.

 6             MR. LONGONE:  And --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor.

 8             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Please, if you are -- I want you to refer to Exhibit P 07533,

10     7533.  Do you have it, sir?

11        A.   I think there are several documents involved.

12        Q.   Yes, sir.  That's correct.

13        A.   And there's a portion -- there's an entire page that is blank,

14     actually.

15        Q.   Yes, sir.  And the first page in B/C/S, you can see that it's

16     addressed to Mrs. Spomenka Cek from the embassy of Herceg-Bosna and to

17     the service for exchange of prisoners, Berislav Pusic.  You see that on

18     the first page, you have that in front of you?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I see that.

20        Q.   And referring to that, there is a report that is attached to the

21     document, and that's why you have several pages.

22             Now if you get into the report, sir, in page 1, in paragraph 1 it

23     says addressed to Colonel Marijan Biskic, Defence minister deputy for

24     security on the 8th January, 1994; and there it says, sir, in paragraph 1

25     that Dr. Mehmed Kapic has been arrested by the HVO military police on the

Page 33620

 1     occasion of closing down the Stolac hospital.  He says that he was placed

 2     in Gabela prison on 10 May 1993, and then on 10 September 1993 he was

 3     transferred to Ljubuski military prison where he still remains.

 4             The reason for his apprehension was of a preventive nature due to

 5     a Muslim aggression.

 6             MR. KOVACIC:  And, and it should be read further, to paragraph

 7     under point 2 where is specific explanation.

 8             MR. LONGONE:  Counsel, I didn't finish to do my

 9     cross-examination.  Could I continue?

10             MR. KOVACIC:  Yes, yes, but you cannot put the witness in an

11     ambiguous position.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, wait.  The

13     Prosecutor hadn't finished his question.  He was going to read on and

14     mention a point 2, I assume.

15             MR. KOVACIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... because he was

16     addressing the witness.  I'm really sorry.

17             MR. LONGONE:

18        Q.   And if you see, sir, basically it says that this person has been

19     arrested in May 1993, and this report is from January 1994, and it says

20     that the reason for his apprehension was of a preventive nature due to a

21     Muslim aggression, and then refers in paragraph 2 to a criminal report

22     against him filed in November 1993.

23             So he was arrested on 10 May 1993, and in November, 26 November

24     1993, there was a report filed against him on the grounds of a reasonable

25     doubt that he committed a criminal act of armed mutiny described in that

Page 33621

 1     law that is stated there.

 2             And at the end of that paragraph, sir, it says that an

 3     investigation is under way after which the court proceedings shall take

 4     place.  And the last part of that paragraph says:

 5             "As for the inquiries, possibility to allow access to the

 6     official representative of the Federal Republic of Germany or to those of

 7     Human Rights Organisation, we have been advised that during the course of

 8     the investigation no one is allowed to have access or insight in the

 9     entire file for the sake of the security of the investigation itself and

10     that when the court proceedings start which will be open to the public

11     any interested party will be allowed to attend."

12             Do you see that, sir?

13        A.   Yes, I see that, but I don't see any link to humanitarian

14     activity.  I don't see any link to what I did to my mission, particularly

15     given the fact that these are other places, other municipalities.

16        Q.   Sir, isn't true that the operations of Merhamet were disrupted by

17     HVO arrests?  Is this not a clear example of that?

18        A.   I don't know in what capacity this gentleman was acting when

19     these things were happening.  This has nothing to do with the work and

20     activity of Merhamet.  This has to do with a particular person.

21        Q.   Sir, let's go back to the --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor is

23     putting a question to you and asking you whether Kapic's arrest led to

24     inconveniences for Merhamet, and you answered by saying that you didn't

25     know what Mr. Kapic was doing.

Page 33622

 1             From what I understood yesterday or the day before, Merhamet

 2     continued working in Mostar and elsewhere together with Caritas, the Red

 3     Crescent and the Red Cross.  In January 1994, in December 1993, in

 4     November 1993, in October and so on and so forth, was Merhamet still

 5     active or was Merhamet no longer active because one or several of its

 6     representatives were in gaol?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is about the Mostar

 8     Merhamet and its situation.  The Mostar Merhamet, humanitarian

 9     organisation was now back to working with the coordinating committee on

10     the 15th of June, 1993.

11             What happened in Stolac or other municipalities involving

12     Merhamet, believe me, I have no idea.

13             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Sir, let's go back to Exhibit 1D 02763.  That's in the Defence

15     binder.  Yes.  That small binder.  1D 02763.

16             Sorry.  My apologies, Your Honour.  These are -- these are

17     outside the binders, and it's -- they are a group of exhibits that I have

18     distributed, and now, usher, could you please provide with those copies

19     to the witness.  Could you please provide them.  Thank you very much.

20             This was an exhibit used yesterday and the day before yesterday

21     with you, sir.  Actually, yesterday.  Do you remember, sir?  Those

22     were -- those were certificates issued to certificate that all these

23     Muslim people that you recognised were Muslims were working for the

24     Mostar Social Welfare Centre as social workers, and you even mentioned

25     that you used to have coffee with some of them, or prepare the coffee for

Page 33623

 1     you, a lady.  Do you recall that you have of said to us?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   And, sir -- and do you -- you mentioned that you recall

 4     Mr. Marko Bevanda?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And this is from -- dated the 24 May 1993.

 7        A.   I know Marko Bevanda.  I know him personally from before and from

 8     later on, without even looking at the date.

 9        Q.   And these people -- I mean, Mr. Marko Bevanda and -- was working

10     in relation to humanitarian aid?  That's it?  The welfare -- the Mostar

11     Welfare Centre, is that it, the one distributing humanitarian aid?

12        A.   No.  Social Welfare Centre did not distribute humanitarian aid.

13     They were in charge of establishing the criteria of distribution and the

14     operative aspect of our work in terms of issuing distribution cards, but

15     they had nothing to do with the distribution process itself.  So there

16     you have it.

17        Q.   So in -- as you mentioned, he was in charge of establishing the

18     criteria of distribution and the periodic aspect of the work of

19     distributing the cards and receiving humanitarian aid and that's it?

20        A.   Yes.  No.  No, not Mr. Bevanda.  The organisation as such, the

21     institution, the Social Welfare Centre which he was in charge of.

22        Q.   All right.  And, sir, could you please tell me what happened

23     with, for example, Mr. Mehmed Buric, which is mentioned in page 3.  What

24     happened with that Bosnian Muslim person during 1993?  Do you recall if

25     anything extraordinary happened to him?

Page 33624

 1        A.   I don't, no.

 2        Q.   And what about Nafija Kolukcija on page 6?  Do you recall

 3     anything that had happened to her?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What about Aisa Pervan?  Ms. Aisa Pervan.  Do you know what

 6     happened to her, this Bosnian lady?

 7        A.   No, but I have no idea which point in time all this is in

 8     relation to.

 9        Q.   Sir, weren't they arrested in May 1993 by the HVO, all these

10     Muslim people?

11        A.   Not that I know of.  When I look at the date, the information

12     received at the time suggests that everyone was released from Heliodrom.

13     This is the 24th of May.  They were all in the Social Welfare Centre.

14        Q.   Sir, can you please -- I want you to look at the Exhibit 2373

15     that I gave to you.  2373.  It's in the same group of documents that the

16     usher gave to you, sir.  We are dealing with this group of documents for

17     the time being.  You have the document with you now, sir?

18        A.   If that's the one, yes.

19        Q.   Right.

20        A.   But the one on the screen does not tally with the one that I have

21     in my hand, so ...

22        Q.   That's okay, sir.  You have the document with you, isn't it.

23     2373.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Sir, this is an order from Mostar dated 13 May 1993, saying that

Page 33625

 1     by Mr. Berko Pusic to immediately release the following persons, signed

 2     by Stanko Bozic, the warden of Mostar.  Yesterday you recognised him.

 3     And in that list there are 13 people, and do you recognise the name of

 4     Aisa Pervan, sir, the one which was mentioned on page 7?  That Bosnian

 5     Muslim social worker?

 6        A.   Yes, as long as it's the same person.

 7        Q.   Sir, do you remember the person listed under number 12,

 8     Ms. Nafija Kolukcija, the person mentioned on page 6, also in Heliodrom?

 9        A.   We have both exhibits.  I remember from yesterday, but I have no

10     idea what went on earlier on.

11        Q.   Sir, if we -- if you can please look at Exhibit 2396.  In the

12     same -- in the same group.  Yeah, exactly, that one.

13             This document is dated Mostar, 14 May 1993, and is signed by the

14     warden of Mostar central remand detention facility, Stanko Bozic, and it

15     says:

16             "Order.  The following persons shall be released on a verbal

17     authorisation from Mr. Berko Pusic."

18             Sir, do you recognise under number 18, Mehmed Buric?  That was

19     one of the persons I mention to you working for the social welfare

20     office, a Bosnian Muslim, on page 3 before.  Do you recognise him, sir?

21        A.   It's probably the same person.

22        Q.   Sir, you said that on the 9 of May 1993, in the evening you

23     learned about the arrest of people in the -- in the Heliodrom.  These

24     people you mentioned yesterday, they were working with you.  They were

25     working in assisting the distribution of humanitarian aid in the welfare

Page 33626

 1     office centre.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm going to object to the form of the question

 3     unless he can show in his testimony where he used the word "arrest,"

 4     first of all, these people were arrested; and also where he said that

 5     these people listed they were working with him prior to May 9th.  The

 6     documents were shown to him in relation to their occupation and exactly

 7     what those people did within their respective department.  So would ask

 8     that the gentleman be very precise when quoting what was said earlier by

 9     the witness.

10             MR. LONGONE:  Your Honour, these people say that they have been

11     released.  Released what?  They are in the Heliodrom.  They have been

12     released.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  This is argumentative.  It's not matter of what

14     the gentleman thinks happen.

15             MR. LONGONE:  Well, the document --

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me.  He's quoting what the witness said

17     during direct examination.  Now, if he's going to quote:  Page and line.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Longone, the documents

19     state that these people were released.  Well, put your question then.

20             Witness --

21             MR. LONGONE:  Do you remember, sir --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

23             Yesterday, Witness, I put a question to you.  I had not

24     remembered these documents.  These documents have already been addressed

25     a long time ago in the presence of other witnesses.  Yesterday, I asked

Page 33627

 1     you whether you discussed the situation with the employees working in the

 2     same centre as you, and you said, No.  You said you did not discuss

 3     private matters with them.  You -- if I remember correctly, you said that

 4     you had coffee with one of these people.  I don't remember which one:  "I

 5     didn't know that these people had been arrested.  I knew nothing about

 6     this."

 7             My question was a much broader one.  I wanted to know if all was

 8     well with Muslims in West Mostar.  So when I put the question to you I

 9     wanted to know whether you discussed this situation with these people and

10     you replied by saying that you did not discuss private matters with them.

11     Now when I look at these documents I find it difficult to believe that

12     you didn't know at the time that number 5 and number 12, Aisa Pervan and

13     Nafija Kolukcija had been absent for a few days at least, because if they

14     were arrested on the 9th of May or transferred, whatever term you would

15     like to use, and if an application is made for these people to be

16     released on the 13th of May, for a number of days at least these people

17     did not go in to work.  You knew that they hadn't come into work.  Did

18     you not know about this?  Did you?  Could you tell us about this, please?

19     Because when you have two employees who disappear for a few days, and if

20     you're in charge and you don't wonder why, then this is rather

21     surprising.

22             If the people I work with do not turn up, I will wonder what the

23     matter is.  I will think perhaps that these people are ill or taken ill.

24             Yesterday when I put the question to you, I wanted to know

25     whether these Muslim people had had problems or not, and you answered by

Page 33628

 1     saying that you were not involved in their private affairs.  Do you

 2     remember this or not?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are two

 4     different institutions, the Social Welfare Centre was in one part of down

 5     and the Red Cross was in a different part of down altogether.  I had no

 6     idea who came to work and who didn't.  I have no idea how many days at a

 7     time people were absent.  I can tell you about the Red Cross people.

 8             These here are people that Marko Bevanda was in charge of.  I

 9     have no idea when they reported to work, how professional they were about

10     their work or whatever they did.

11             Whenever I came across some of these people, even if I knew them,

12     I would never ask them about specifics like that, who came to a meeting,

13     who left, that sort of thing.  I never discussed that.  And I wasn't

14     physically present in that institution.  It wasn't an institution that I

15     myself was in charge of as you seem to have suggested in your question,

16     Your Honour.  I am sorry, but that is not just true.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In other words, you

18     had no authority over these people, and in addition, these were people

19     working in different premises.  I have noted what you have said.

20             MR. LONGONE:

21        Q.   Sir -- thank you very much.  Sir, under that basis you said I

22     have no idea who came to work and who didn't.  Therefore you have no idea

23     that these people that you referred yesterday that they can move freely

24     you don't know whether they can move freely in Mostar to perform their

25     work, is it, at that time?

Page 33629

 1        A.   I don't know.  We're looking at a three-day period, and one thing

 2     I can say with certainty is that over those three days I simply wasn't in

 3     touch with them.  We talked about the certificates issued on the 24th of

 4     May yesterday, 14 or 15 days after the event in relation to those

 5     decision or documents, whatever they were called, I commented on that,

 6     didn't I?  On top of that, I provided an explanation for the benefit of

 7     the Presiding Judge two minutes ago, and you should conclude based on

 8     that that I knew nothing about the employees of the Social Welfare

 9     Centre.  I'm sorry but that was just not my responsibility.

10        Q.   I'm not suggesting that that was your responsibility, sir.  Let's

11     move on, P 04822.  If you can address with that exhibit now.

12             Sir, this is a report -- did you find it?

13        A.   P 04822.  Is that the one we're talking about?

14        Q.   Yes, that's the document, sir.  We are going to focus on that

15     one.

16             Sir, this is a document from the commission on human rights,

17     dated 6 September 1993, and it's a report made by Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki,

18     and a special report regarding Mostar and the cause of concern in Mostar.

19             And, sir, the document said that by August -- in para one of that

20     document, it says that:

21             "By August 1993, civilians in the eastern sector of Mostar were

22     entering their second month of blockade of -- by Bosnian Croat forces.

23     The fate of all civilians in the city was cause for great concern

24     following reports of mass arrests, forced labour, evictions, and rape

25     carried out in the name of ethnic cleansing earlier in this year.

Page 33630

 1              "On 18 August 1993, the Special Rapporteur," that's paragraph

 2     second, "expressed his alarm about the situation in a letter to

 3     Mr. Mate Boban, the representative of the Bosnian Croats and the

 4     international conference of the former Yugoslavia, pressing him to allow

 5     immediate and unimpeded access to Mostar by humanitarian agencies and

 6     also for his own human rights field officers.  He later received a reply

 7     from Mr. Boban and access for the field staff was granted."

 8             Sir, I will pose this question in the part of the document.  Have

 9     any of the -- of the people working for the Red Cross Mostar went to

10     Eastern Mostar or to assess the situation there?  In -- in August 1993

11     after the two months of blockade?  You see it says, "his own human rights

12     field officers."  Have anyone from your -- from the Red Cross Mostar went

13     there to assess the situation?

14        A.   I don't know whether anyone did or not.

15        Q.   You don't recall anyone from your office that maybe have gone

16     there to -- to East Mostar to determine the situation?

17        A.   At the time of the clashes along the left bank the Red Cross was

18     established for East Mostar, a different organisation, therefore, and

19     they now took charge and took over the mandate of the Red Cross for that

20     part of town.  Therefore, we as the Red Cross did not see fit.  We knew

21     what sort of organisation they were, and we had enough on our plate as we

22     were, problems.

23        Q.   Sir, if you move -- if we move to page -- to paragraph 10 of the

24     same exhibit, and we were referring earlier today about when they were

25     given a deadline, the people, to move out of the flats, et cetera, and --

Page 33631

 1     did you find paragraph 10?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So in paragraph 10 it says:

 4             "Since early 1993, the Special Rapporteur has received reports

 5     from Bosnian Muslims were being systematically dismissed from their jobs

 6     in Mostar.  On 15 April 1993, the city authorities adopted statute number

 7     266/93, which severely curtailed the provision of humanitarian assistance

 8     to people seeking refuge in the city.  It promised identity cards on a

 9     temporary basis only to minors and adults of pensionable age who had come

10     from occupied areas from Bosnia and Herzegovina and were not occupying

11     abandoned flats in Mostar.  All other categories of displaced persons

12     were to be deprived of humanitarian assistance and obliged to return to

13     their home districts or moved into collective centres.  An estimated

14     10.000 of the Muslims who had fled to Mostar were in this way

15     disqualified from assistance.  According to local humanitarian

16     organisations, Bosnian Muslims living in abandoned flats received a

17     deadline from the HVO -- from HVO forces to leave by 9 May 1993."

18             Sir, here refers to local humanitarian organisations.  Were you

19     or any of your employees the ones from the local Red Cross that inform

20     the international authorities about this situation and about the deadline

21     to move out by the 9 May 1993 from those flats to abandoned flats in West

22     Mostar?  Do you recall anyone from your organisation, sir?

23        A.   If I may just finish reading the whole paragraph.

24        Q.   Sir ...

25        A.   Could you please repeat the question?

Page 33632

 1        Q.   No problem, sir.  My question was in this paragraph the Special

 2     Rapporteur is referring to the fact that local humanitarian organisations

 3     were giving information that Bosnian Muslims living in abandoned flats

 4     receive a deadline from the HVO forces to leave by 9 May 1993.

 5             Was your organisation among the ones that gave that information

 6     to the United Nations representative at the time?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   If I may, just a brief comment.  At the time when this document

10     was drafted it was six months subsequently, and a lot of facts here do

11     not relate to each other, so it's very difficult for me to understand

12     what this was all about.

13        Q.   All right, sir.  Well, I think everyone in the courtroom, if you

14     see this is a paragraph referring -- we're referring to 1993, and we are

15     referring to the 15 -- the events that took place after the passing of

16     this decision on the 15 April 1993 in Mostar, and basically the paragraph

17     clearly says that Bosnian Muslims living in abandoned flats receive a

18     deadline by HVO forces to leave by May 9, 1993.

19              Isn't it true, sir, that on the May 9, 1993, after the attack in

20     the city of Mostar, many Bosnian Muslims were evicted, arrested, and

21     taken into the Heliodrom?  If I understand you properly, the decision was

22     issued on the 15th of April, as you can see the deadline was 15 days,

23     which takes us to the 30th of April.

24        A.   The implementation of this deadline in other spheres, say for the

25     schools, was under way and there were no disruptions of the nature

Page 33633

 1     described herein.  The deadline was tied to the 9th of May, which doesn't

 2     make any sense to me, if you will allow me to say that.  And before the

 3     30th of April the representative of Merhamet and Red Crescent were

 4     sitting on the coordination committee with us, and they could do whatever

 5     they wanted to to assist people.

 6             The difference to the previous status and the one that was later

 7     on established by decision is very small.  The number of beneficiaries

 8     did not change much save for the category of militarily able-bodied men.

 9     The rest of the beneficiaries preserved their status in a different way.

10        Q.   Sir, in the same -- in the same document, if you go to paragraph

11     19, it refers to several detention centres, and they said that the main

12     detention centres shall believed to be the Rodoc Heliodrom south of

13     Mostar, a former JNA ammunition warehouse in Gabela, south of Capljina,

14     and former JNA warehouse in Dretelj north of Capljina.  And other smaller

15     detentions centers are suspected to be at Otoci, Grabovine --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for reading slowly.

17             MR. LONGONE:

18        Q.   Ljubuski, and Trebizat.  It says, continues saying:

19             "The international committee of the Red Cross was granted access

20     to the Rodoc Heliodrom in mid-July and to the warehouse at Gabela on 30

21     August 1993 where it has since stated that it register around 1.100

22     prisoners.  At the time of preparing this report, the ICRC is still

23     seeking access to other suspected places of detention."

24             Sir, you had access to the Heliodrom on the 9 May 1993, isn't it?

25        A.   To the location, yes, but not to the persons who were down there.

Page 33634

 1        Q.   You said that nobody would impede your access, that everyone

 2     knows you.  The Trial Chamber ask you who you will met at the gate of the

 3     Heliodrom and basically you said that everyone in the city knew who you

 4     were and you personally always used to move the car of the Red Cross with

 5     the symbol of the Red Cross, isn't it?

 6        A.   I apologise.  You have improvised just a little.  I explained

 7     literally how I entered.

 8             At the gate of this military facility there were people who were

 9     in charge of providing security for the facility.  Since these people saw

10     my car marked as a car belonging to the Red Cross of Mostar and my ID

11     which I did not need because they immediately knew what was happening, I

12     immediately passed through and I approached the facility that I described

13     yesterday.  I did not go anywhere else.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor -- Mr. Longone.  I

15     think your question fails foundation.  The witness has clearly stated,

16     and he's right, visiting prisoners is a matter for the ICRC and not for

17     the local Red Cross.  So he didn't even seek to see prisoners in the

18     Heliodrom or in any of the other prisons, and I wonder whether the

19     comparison, according to me, you were aiming at whether it has any

20     ground.

21             MR. LONGONE:  Well, Your Honours, the witness yesterday said that

22     he went when he heard that all the civilian population or all these group

23     of people were taken into the Heliodrom.  He said that he went there to

24     see what was going on, to give some assistance, and -- and I'm not saying

25     that he saw the people, but then he went and talked with the authorities

Page 33635

 1     in command in the prison to know exactly what were the needs, and he said

 2     that it went beyond the capacity of the Red Cross at the time.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I don't think that meets my argument really.  He

 4     went to see the two top persons, the warden, deputy warden, and he

 5     discussed with them, but there was to question ever of looking at the

 6     prisoners, the premises, the conditions, and that is what the ICRC is --

 7     is looking for.  So I'm sorry, I don't think that is -- holds water.

 8             MR. LONGONE:  I agree with you, Your Honours, but in transcript

 9     page 33426, 18, of -- on the 20th October, when they were asked about the

10     mandate carried out by the Mostar municipality Red Cross, the witness

11     said:

12             "Yes, the Mostar Red Cross was gathering information on victims.

13     It was also gathering information on accidents, and it was mediating with

14     internation committee in terms of exchanging information on people who

15     had been separated and was also helping reunite families and missing

16     people."  That's what he said on 20th October.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  But perhaps the Prosecutor should also look at the

18     part of the transcript where he made it abundantly clear that based on

19     the agreement it was the International Red Cross that would do these

20     things and not the local Red Cross.  So we can't cherry pick parts of the

21     transcript and again he's mischaracterising or he's reading too much into

22     those specific tasks that the Red Cross was doing.  I mean, I think he

23     was very, very clear as far as what their mandate was vis-a-vis what the

24     mandate was for the International Red Cross and why the International Red

25     Cross insisted on being the one taking the lead into certain area because

Page 33636

 1     of their neutrality.

 2             So again, I agree with you, Judge Trechsel, and I would ask that

 3     the Trial Chamber exercise -- I mean, you're very patient, but I think

 4     some foundational questions need to be put first before we go into a

 5     fishing expedition.

 6             MR. LONGONE:  I'm not going to a fishing expedition but I imagine

 7     that the people, the Bosnian Muslims, were left in Mostar that they were

 8     not arrested in Heliodrom they were trying to find the whereabouts of the

 9     people that their relatives or friends that they were arrested in Mostar

10     at the Heliodrom, and they will go certainly to the Red Cross to the

11     tracing unit of the Red Cross in Mostar to ask some information about it.

12             I will move on to Exhibit P 06518.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you move on let us

14     remain with this document.  In paragraph 12 the Special Rapporteur says

15     the following:

16             "From the 14th to the 15th of June, several thousands of Muslims

17     were expelled from their homes in West Mostar and forced to cross the

18     bridge under fire."

19             Yesterday I asked you the following based on the figure of 8.000

20     Muslims who were in West Mostar.  I asked you to confirm that there were

21     indeed 8.000.  You said there were.  You added that there were also

22     30.000 Croats.  So one could be led to believe that there was 1 Muslim in

23     4 who would live in West Mostar.  But you did not say at all that

24     thousands of Muslims had left.  Why did you fail to say so, to tell me

25     that?  Didn't you know that?  It didn't cross your mind?  Why did you not

Page 33637

 1     mention that?  Because I tried to broach with you the issue of the

 2     Muslims.  We have to look into the transcript, but I -- you said that

 3     they could freely from point A or to point B.  At least I asked that but

 4     you did not deny that, and you did not at all speak about the events of

 5     the 14th and 15th of June.  Why did you not do so?  Is there a mistake

 6     made by the rapporteur here?  Was there never thousands of Muslims forced

 7     to cross the bridge and forced to live -- leave West Mostar, or did you

 8     not know this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we talked

10     about the 9th of May and the time that preceded that date.  My

11     information, speaking about 8.000 Muslims referred to the time preceding

12     the 9th of May, and here we have the dates 14th and 15th of June, and I

13     don't know what was happening at that time, but I have a very clear

14     indicator that on the 30th of November, 1993, five or six months after

15     all of these events on the right bank there was 47.558 inhabitants of

16     whom 34.430 were Croats; 9.928 were Muslims Bosniaks; 2.400 Serbs; and

17     823 were others.  And this is information obtained from the local

18     communes based on their register because they were aware of the

19     situation.

20             So any games playing with the thousands of Muslims, numbers of

21     Muslims, this date, other date, is just preposterous.  Anybody who was

22     dealing with that would be able to provide you with the exact indicators

23     for both periods within the context of what I've just said.

24             At that time, all of the 47.000 something inhabitants of the

25     citizens of Mostar, 39.613 were the origin indigenous just locals.  There

Page 33638

 1     were also displaced persons and refugees.  On the 30th of November, 1993,

 2     and I can show you my notes from the meeting that was relative to the

 3     distribution of the humanitarian aid.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am not going -- not going to

 5     question your figures if you said that by November there were 3.928

 6     Muslims, that must be true.  That's based on statistics.  But if that is

 7     so, there's one thing I fail to understand.

 8             Are the data on which this report was made, are they wrong?  If

 9     there were 8.000 Muslims in May, if thousands of Muslims are going to

10     leave and cross the bridge, how can you account for the fact that only a

11     few months later there are 9.000 Muslims still in Mostar?  Does that mean

12     that thousands crossed the bridge one way and that other -- others,

13     thousands of them, crossed it back?  There's a mystery.  Can you sort of

14     dissipate it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  This is

16     obviously information that was not based on reliable sources, and that's

17     the only way I can understand these games playing with the thousands of

18     people here.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Witness.  This is going to be a

20     little bit an excursion.  I would like to ask an encyclopedic type of

21     question.

22             Having read the transcript of yesterday, a lot -- many, many

23     places the term "commune" comes up, and I suppose it's not the same as

24     "municipality."  Perhaps you used it because it's shorter, but I would be

25     very grateful if you could enlighten me on what exactly is meant by a

Page 33639

 1     commune.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A local commune or a local

 3     community is one part of a municipality.  It is an area inhabited by

 4     people.  There were 32 local communes in the West Mostar, and before the

 5     town was divided there were 42 local communes.

 6             It is a territorial division of a town by streets for easier

 7     record-making.  It was very useful to us, especially at the time when the

 8     aid had to be distributed.  We distributed the aid across local communes.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Is it organised in any way?  Does it have any

10     authorities or structures, or is it just the people between A street and

11     F street and 1 and 7?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For every local commune there was a

13     commissioner, a government commissioner, a person who was in charge of

14     communal problems and other such problems, and such person was the

15     spokesperson for the commune reporting on the situation in the local

16     commune.  There was also a commission -- commissioner for all the

17     humanitarian organisations in most of these communes at the time.  And

18     there was also a person in charge on behalf of the social services to

19     monitor the situation in every local commune in order to establish

20     criteria based on which people would be entitled to humanitarian aid.

21             In the local communes there were also some local storages,

22     temporary storages for the receipt and distribution of humanitarian aid,

23     and there would always be one or two persons, usually pensioners, who

24     would be involved in the distribution of aid.  That would be the

25     structure, but there was just one officially authorised person

Page 33640

 1     representing a commune.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  So am I correct --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- this as meaning that the communes are

 5     administrative subdivisions of a municipality with certain limited tasks,

 6     no democratic structures, but certain officials set there by the

 7     administration of the municipality, the municipality government?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Representatives of the local

 9     commune were residents of the commune.  They were very familiar with the

10     situation.  They monitored the situation.  They knew what was going on,

11     and they reacted if something occurred that had nothing much to do with

12     humanitarian activities but, rather, with the general activities and

13     general issues within that commune.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're not going to go

15     into any great detail, but I believe that in the former Yugoslavia you

16     had this form of civilian protection.  Was there civilian protection in

17     every commune?  And the officials that deal with the issue of

18     distributing aid, food aid or other, could they be part of the civilian

19     protection in the wider sense?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the former Yugoslavia, yes.  It

21     was true of that institution to the full extent.  However, before the

22     outbreak of the conflict, most of the resources of the civilian

23     protection were stolen by the JNA and the reservists who had arrived in

24     the area so that the civilian protections very -- had very little

25     resources, and they did not have the opportunity to develop their

Page 33641

 1     structure in the territory of the municipality of Mostar so as to be

 2     active in all locations.

 3             There were local communes who had such persons who were deployed

 4     based on the civilian protection criteria, and they were at the disposal

 5     of the commissioner for certain activities.  There were also local

 6     communes that had public shelters, and that's where the members of the

 7     civilian protection provided security and secured public order when

 8     people had to be sheltered when there was an alert sounded.  In other

 9     words, the civilian protection was active but not to the extent they used

10     to be active, and I still remember how it was before the outbreak of the

11     conflicts in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

12             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to avoid any

13     misunderstandings with regard to some previous testimonies, I would just

14     like to say that the interpreters don't always use the same terms.  What

15     you asked about and what the witness is talking about is something that

16     under the law was called a local commune or a territorial commune, and

17     there was a law which set out exactly what a local commune was.  Here the

18     interpreter uses the word "local commune," and in some previous instances

19     the interpreters used some similar terms.  And since the other witnesses

20     also mentioned the same concept of a local commune, I think it would be

21     good for us to adopt one and the same term, although this may be late

22     because the record already contains thousands of pages.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you, Witness, that was helpful.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

25             MR. LONGONE:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 33642

 1        Q.   Sir, I want you to address to one exhibit that has been discussed

 2     before.  This is the report of the Mostar Red Cross.  It's 1D 02651.  1D

 3     02651.

 4        A.   Yes, I've found the document.

 5        Q.   Sir, this was the report on the work of the Red Cross of Mostar

 6     during 1993.  Do you remember that?

 7        A.   Of course.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise the report, sir?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   And just -- we are going to work on that report, but just to let

11     you know the Prosecution has another exhibit, P 07319.  If you look at

12     that.  Just keep that document open and also the -- for the rest of the

13     parties and Your Honours here in the courtroom, just -- P 07319.  07 --

14     7319.  You can take it out, that document, sir, and you can put it along

15     with that one.

16             This is a -- is the same document.  If you see, it's a copy that

17     the Prosecution has, and the only difference, sir, is that would you

18     agree with me that in this one is your signature in it?

19        A.   This is not the -- the only difference.  This is the consent for

20     inception or registration.  We submitted reports on our work, and in the

21     left-hand side you can see the government of the Republic of

22     Herceg-Bosna, and this document was submitted to the competent ministry

23     as per our statute.  Just for the information for their perusal, that is.

24        Q.   So one document was admitted to the authorities of the regional

25     Red Cross and the other one to -- to the ministry authorities of the

Page 33643

 1     government?  That's what you wanted to say?  I'm not sure whether I

 2     understood you.

 3        A.   No.  This is the same document.  I gave this document to the

 4     Defence counsel when I found -- found it in the archives without any

 5     signature or any other signature.  This document is probably from the

 6     Ministry of Social Work and Family to whom we sent our reports because

 7     they wanted to see whether our activities were carried out according to

 8     the law.  The only difference is that the one bearing my signature was

 9     sent to this institution, and everything else should be the same if the

10     number of the pages is the same.

11        Q.   That was my question.  It's just because it was one has your

12     signature.  I just wanted to -- because the other one that we're going to

13     discuss doesn't have the signature, but you recognise your signature

14     there.  That was basically it.

15        A.   Well, we can use any of them depending on which one is more

16     legible, but to all intents and purposes this is the same report.

17        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  And if we continue in the one used by

18     the Defence, sir, earlier, that document, and you see that in this

19     document they have different parts, attachments.  One is related in

20     attachment one, in page 6 of the report, in the English version.

21             Did you find that, sir?

22        A.   I think so, but it's not very legible, is it?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Prosecutor.  My

24     colleague is right.  You're now turning to page 6 of the report.  This

25     could take several minutes; we have one minute left, one minute and 56

Page 33644

 1     seconds to be precise.  I think it might be better for us to stop today

 2     and we shall resume tomorrow.

 3             However, in the time left to us and time is of the essence, so

 4     let's use every second of it, Witness, I noticed in this famous report we

 5     have a fax and a telephone number, 367-883-2007.  Back then did your

 6     telephone line work properly?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  32007, yes.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the telephone worked.

 9     That's what I wanted to know.  Thank you.

10             It's 7.00.  Have and good evening.  We shall resume tomorrow at

11     2.15.

12             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] He has a question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is there anyway or

14     any chance for us to start earlier, because I have some commitments on

15     Friday, some previous commitments.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  The interpreters

17     must have left because I can't receive the interpretation.

18             So you would have liked to start earlier tomorrow; is that right?

19     Well, it's impossible, I'm afraid, because I sit in the morning in

20     another trial.  I cannot start any earlier than 2.15.  But the Prosecutor

21     has under an hour, so there may not be redirect.  I think we're going to

22     finish earlier tomorrow.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day

Page 33645

 1                           of October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.