1 Monday, 3 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to everyone in and
10 around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor
11 versus Jadranko Prlic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is Monday. I would like to greet Mr. Tomic, first of all,
15 who stayed here for a few days, waiting for the hearing to resume. I
16 would like to thank him.
17 I would like to greet the accused, the counsel, Mr. Scott and
18 Mr. Kruger, as well as their associate, and all the people helping us in
19 this courtroom.
20 We are today going to begin the cross-examination. Since we have
21 very little time, I shall not waste any more time and give the floor to
22 Mr. Scott straight away.
23 WITNESS: NEVEN TOMIC [Resumed]
24 [The witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:
1 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon to Your Honours, each of you, and good
2 afternoon to all those in and around the courtroom, Counsel, and good
3 afternoon, Mr. Tomic.
4 Q. Sir, I'd like to start and spend some minutes -- take us some
5 time to go through a bit of what we might call background to try to
6 clarify a few points that we discussed last week, perhaps a few more
7 points on particular items or clarification. I'd like to start off,
8 please, in terms of the HDZ political party.
9 You said last Monday that you were pressed or pressured, in 1991,
10 to become a member of the HDZ, but that you did not become a member "at
11 that time." Could you tell us, please, who was pressing you to join the
12 HDZ in approximately 1991?
13 A. At the time, the municipal leadership of the HDZ of Mostar
14 offered me to sign their papers and become an HDZ member. That would
15 have made it easier for me to become appointed a director of the
16 reconstruction and development fund of the city of Mostar. To answer
17 your question, it was the municipal leadership of the HDZ of Mostar.
18 Q. Two things, sir, that you're going to find that I will ask you
19 repeatedly, and if you can assist not only me but the Judges, please.
20 When you say "municipal leadership," I'm even more interested in getting
21 the names of actual individuals, if you can assist us, and I'll also be
22 asking, I'll just say in general about dates. If you can be as specific
23 as possible, everyone being mindful, of course, that these events took
24 place some time ago, but if you can assist us as much as possible with
25 dates, that would be appreciated.
1 So when you say someone in the municipal leadership or people in
2 the municipal leadership wanted you to join the HDZ, picking up on what I
3 just said, such as who, what individuals?
4 A. Mr. Jerko Doko, Milivoj Gagro, Marin Topic.
5 Q. And I take it from the implication of the answer that you gave
6 when you said you did not join "at that time," that you did at some point
7 join the HDZ; correct?
8 A. Later, as the HVO of the HZ-HB and political bodies continued
9 working, all members of the HDZ were invited to the Presidency sessions,
10 and later on we became members of the HDZ, firstly by our functions or
11 positions, and then in practical terms we became members of the HDZ.
12 Q. All right. So you've answered my question. You did at some
13 point become a member of the HDZ. Can you tell us, again, dates?
14 Approximately when was that?
15 A. I've just told you that there's no specific date. We did not
16 sign any papers to become members. It was just a string of events.
17 Continued activity had ensued, and all officials in the HZ-HB and later
18 on in the government of the Federation were duty-bound to attend
19 Presidency sessions, and they were also members of the main board of the
20 HDZ. Not for a single moment there was anything as the official signing
21 of any papers, so I wouldn't really be able to give you any precise date.
22 Q. Well, sir, I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but let
23 me just suggest to you I don't find that answer to be sufficient. It
24 certainly was not the case that just anyone and everyone sort of at some
25 point morphed into an HDZ member in the general population or among the
1 officials of these various bodies, so, sir, you must have some idea when
2 you considered you had become a member of the HDZ. Please.
3 A. If I can compare the periods in question, I can tell you that I
4 became a party member after I went to Sarajevo; in other words, after the
5 Washington Accords, in that period roughly.
6 Q. Let's come at it this way: When you became involved with the
7 Mostar Crisis Staff in 1992, by approximately April/May 1992, did you
8 consider that you had become a member of the HDZ by that time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you can't assist the Judges any more as to when you became a
11 member of the HDZ, except at some time between 1991 and going to Sarajevo
12 sometime after the Washington Agreement years later, sometime in there
13 you became a member of the HDZ; is that correct?
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Mischaracterizes the evidence. He
15 said after he went to Sarajevo
16 Washington Agreement, so we're talking post-1994, post-indictment period.
17 That should be helpful to the Judges.
18 MR. SCOTT: That's what I said, Mr. Karnavas. It says "and going
19 to Sarajevo
20 Q. Are you saying, sir, you were not a member of the HDZ until after
21 the Washington Agreement, which was signed in approximately March 1994?
22 A. There was no official admission into the membership of the HDZ.
23 I did not sign any papers to join. At that moment, the HDZ was a
24 movement rather than anything else, and as per the HDZ rules, we were all
25 duty-bound to participate in its work. I really can't give you the
1 precise date when I consider to have become a member of the HDZ, because
2 there was no official admission act that preceded it.
3 Q. And did you hold any other positions or functions in that party,
4 apart from membership? Did you ever become an official or take on any
5 sort of other function or positions in the HDZ party during the time that
6 you were a member?
7 A. By function, as the deputy presiding over the Ministerial
8 Council, I was also a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 This was through sheer --
10 Q. I apologise. Our time is limited, and I ask you to listen to my
11 questions very carefully. If it's mis-translation or if I misspoke, I
12 apologise both to you and to the interpreters.
13 My question had nothing to do with the Ministerial Council or
14 your position in the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Sir, right now I'm talking about the HDZ political party. You understand
16 the concept of a political party, I take it. Yes?
17 A. Yes, of course.
18 Q. You understand my question to you now is: Did you hold any
19 offices, position or function in the HDZ political party, other than
20 being a member?
21 A. I was a member of the Presidency of the HDZ of
23 Q. When did you become a member of that body?
24 A. In early 1997, when I was elected the co-chairperson of the
25 Ministerial Council.
1 Q. Prior to being a member of the HDZ, were you a member of any
2 political party in your adult life?
3 A. I was a member of the League of Communists.
4 Q. You said in your testimony last week that for approximately one
5 year, you were the president of a Yugoslavian youth organisation of some
6 sort. Unless I missed it, and I may have, can you give us the name of
7 that particular organisation that you were the president of?
8 A. It was the Alliance
9 was the president of the municipal conference of that organisation, i.e.,
10 of the Alliance
11 Q. What time period -- for what time period, sorry, did you hold
12 that position, approximately?
13 A. For a year, precisely.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... what date, precisely?
15 A. I believe that it was in 1985 and in 1986.
16 Q. Is there any relationship -- and this may seem very basic to you
17 and it may be known to most everyone in the courtroom or not, but for
18 purposes of the record in this case, can you tell us what relationship,
19 if any, existed between that organisation and the Communist Party or
20 League of Communists?
21 A. This organisation rallied young people, up to the age of 27. It
22 was a collective member of the Socialist Alliance of the Working People
23 of Yugoslavia
24 League of Communists as the leading force in that organisation.
25 Q. Now, apart from being president of the Socialist Youth, did you
1 have any other -- hold any other positions or office in that party, in
2 the Communist Party?
3 A. I was a member of my own organisation, in the Unis
4 Electronic Company in Mostar.
5 Q. Apart from that, did you hold any party positions? Were you a
6 secretary, a president, a chairperson? Did you hold any other functions
7 in the Communist Party, other than those you've told us about so far?
8 A. None, as far as I can remember. I did not hold any important
10 Q. Prior to the time you became head of the finance department of
11 the HVO in approximately mid-August 1992, prior to that time, had you
12 held any government function in the former Yugoslavia at any level,
13 municipal, regional, federal, republic? Had you held any political
14 office or governmental office, excuse me, prior to becoming head of the
15 finance department?
16 A. I was, in professional terms, the director of the fund for the
17 reconstruction and development of the city, and during that period of
18 time I was not politically active, in terms of being affiliated with any
19 political party during that period of time.
20 Q. All right. Did you consider this fund to be, then, based on your
21 answer just now, a governmental body, a public body, as opposed to a
22 private business, or perhaps socially owned, mixed in some way? But if
23 you can just briefly clarify, please.
24 A. The reconstruction and development fund was a para-budgetary
25 institution which managed public resources. In other words, it managed
1 funds, financial funds that belonged to the Municipality of Mostar
2 those funds were intended for the zoning, urban planning, development,
3 and reconstruction of the infrastructure. It also managed the assets in
4 terms of building ground and infrastructural facilities.
5 Q. When you say -- when you describe that as being a para-budgetary
6 organisation, what do you mean in that context, "para" meaning what?
7 A. The fund had its own budget which was passed at the annual level
8 and which was ratified by the Municipal Assembly. However, it was not
9 part of the municipal budget, and it is within this context that I said
10 that it was a para-budgetary institution. It did have a budget but not
11 as part of the municipal budget. However, the city assembly had to
12 approve its budget, and thus it had a say in defining the projects and
13 plans that this fund passed at its own level.
14 Q. And then you were appointed head of the HVO finance department on
15 the 15th of August, 1992; correct? Maybe the 14th, but middle of August.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And then later in the fall of 1993, perhaps around November,
18 after the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna
19 named deputy finance minister under Mr. Martinovic, as finance minister;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you were appointed once again to the top finance position, if
23 you will, as Minister of Finance of the Croatian Republic
24 in January 1995; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And you held that position for approximately how long, sir, until
2 when? If you can give me kind of an end date, please.
3 A. I believe that it was up to the moment when the governments of
4 the Federation and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
5 was the moment when the Washington Agreement took off the ground, which
6 happened just before the Dayton Accords were passed.
7 Q. So sometime in late 1995, then; is that what you're telling us?
8 A. I would say mid-1995, but I can't be sure of the exact time when
9 this happened.
10 Q. So you held -- just to be sure here, you held the position of
11 Minister of Finance of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna only from
12 approximately 13 January 1995
13 A. I really can't tell you exactly when my office reached the end,
14 because during that period I was also the Minister of Finance of the
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
16 Herceg-Bosna, when the governments of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 and the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina split, at that moment my office
18 in the government of Herceg-Bosna was terminated.
19 Q. During the period of approximately 1 April 1992 until the end of
20 1992, can you tell us where you lived or had your residence, your
21 principal residence, please?
22 A. In Mostar.
23 Q. And approximately -- can you give us the address in Mostar,
25 A. First in my own apartment in Leopold Dokmanovic Street, number 3,
1 and later in Mr. Slezak's house, which was not far from my own apartment.
2 Q. And did you continue to live at -- the second location, then, if
3 I understand correctly, if it's a matter of sequence, did you continue to
4 live at that residence in 1993?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In an effort to try to save some time, if we can - maybe we will,
7 maybe we won't - I'd like the witness to be shown or provided a copy
8 of -- we will provide the witness a copy of what was previously marked as
9 P09517, which is a street diagram of Mostar Town; not in great detail,
10 but it's one we've used on a number of occasions.
11 MR. SCOTT: If the Chamber wants to look at it, it will be on the
12 ELMO. It should also be in e-court, the clean version, as, I believe,
13 again, P09517.
14 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to make some markings. So if the usher
15 can assist you with the appropriate marking device.
16 Sir, if you can find it on the map, approximately, and again I
17 realise and everyone realises this is not a detailed map, but if you can
18 give us the approximate -- as best you can, the approximate location of
19 the first place that you told us that you lived a few moments ago in
20 Mostar before you moved into Mr. Slezak's flat, I believe. Where was
21 that, if you can make a mark, you can mark that with a number 1, find it
22 and then mark it number 1.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. And then where was the second place of Mr. Slezak's residence?
25 A. The place isn't on the map.
1 Q. Can you kind of point an arrow and just maybe make -- give it a
2 number 2 and just point it off in the general -- as close as you can to
3 the general direction off the map, where it was?
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. All right. And my question to you at the time we pulled out the
6 map was: And did you continue to live at location number 2 throughout
7 1993 or where did you live in 1993?
8 A. On the whole, I lived there.
9 Q. All right. And during the time when you were working at the --
10 once you became involved as the head of the HVO finance department, so
11 we're talking about August 1992 and forward, can you tell us where your
12 office was located? When you went to work, if you will, as head of the
13 finance department, where did you go during that second half of 1992?
14 Mark that number 3, please.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Thank you. And for how long did you work at that particular
17 location, approximately?
18 A. It was until the left bank was finally liberated and when we
19 moved to Hotel Arrow.
20 Q. And when was that, approximately? That is, when did you have
21 your office at Hotel Arrow?
22 A. I think it was at the beginning of 1993.
23 Q. Can you mark that, please, with number 4?
24 A. [Marks].
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas [sic]. Mr. Tomic, you
1 have used the expression that the left bank was liberated. Liberated
2 from whom? What do you have in mind when you use that term?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when it was liberated from
4 the presence of the Yugoslav Army and reserve forces present in the area.
5 MR. SCOTT: Maybe -- I'm sorry, Judge.
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I leave it at that for the moment.
7 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps Judge Trechsel would have the same follow-up
9 Q. That leaves me just a bit confused, because I thought you said
10 that in August 1992, you were working at location number 3. August 1992
11 would be after the Serbs left Mostar, so I think your dates are a bit
12 confused, if you'll allow, sir.
13 A. Yes, correct, but Hotel Arrow was destroyed. It had to be
14 renovated, and when we accumulated the initial equipment, when this was
15 started on, so I think it was the beginning of 1993 that we moved to the
16 premises of Hotel Arrow. I can't be precise, though.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: A very brief technical question. Mr. Tomic, how
18 would you spell the name "Arrow," the name of the hotel? How do you
19 write it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] E-R-O.
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. That's what I thought, but it's
22 "Arrow" in the transcript, which is something -- I don't know, perhaps
23 this is a translation, but thank you very much.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. All right, sir. So then just based on the clarification the last
1 few minutes, from approximately August 1992 until approximately sometime
2 in early 1993, your office was located at number 3. Sometime beginning
3 in early 1993, you relocated your office, that is, the finance
4 department, to location number 4. How long were you at that location
5 number 4?
6 A. We were there until the conflict between the Muslims and the
7 Croats in Mostar broke out.
8 Q. So until approximately May 1993, the 9th of May; is that what
9 you're telling us?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And where did you move your location? I do understand that at
12 some point you indicated you had moved the location to Siroki Brijeg.
13 Was it at that time?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And how long did you remain in Siroki Brijeg for? Did you at
16 some point return to Mostar, and if so, when?
17 A. Well, we remained in Siroki Brijeg for about a month, perhaps,
18 and then we returned to Mostar, to the new premises, which is where the
19 finance department continued with its work.
20 Q. So when you moved to a new location in approximately June 1993,
21 can you please find that on the drawing and mark that number 5.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. And did you remain at that location through the rest of 1993 and
24 into 1994, "that location" being number 5?
25 A. Yes, and then later on I think we moved to the Praktent [phoen]
1 building. I had left for Sarajevo
3 Q. Well, let me -- again, sir, so that the record is clear for the
4 future, did you remain at location number 5 through at least maybe -- and
5 we don't know exactly when yet, but through at least the end of 1993?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. Now, when the office relocated for about one month to
8 Siroki Brijeg, did you continue living in Mostar or did you also move
9 your residence to Siroki Brijeg?
10 A. My flat remained in Mostar.
11 Q. And if it's -- can you tell us, then, where you were living
12 during that period of time? It may be one of the -- presumably, it's one
13 of the markings you've already made, so where were you living? Were you
14 living at location number 2 throughout this period?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if I can ask you a similar question to what I asked you a
17 moment ago: Did you continue to live at that location until at least the
18 end of 1993?
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. Now, where was -- you've told us where the finance department was
21 located. Where did the HVO HZ-HB have its office ? And again we'll
22 start chronologically. When you became finance head in mid-August 1992,
23 where was the HVO HZ-HB located? And can you -- when you've found that
24 on the map, if you can mark that number 6, please.
25 A. Well, at the time when Mr. Prlic was designated as the president
1 of the HVO HZ-HB, he set up an office which was in the same building in
2 which the finance department was located, so it's number 3 here.
3 Q. Just so we can keep the record very, very clear, could you mark a
4 number 6 just very close to the number 3?
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. But not "36." Why don't you draw a line, if you could, please,
7 between the "3" and the "6." You can just draw a diagonal line between
8 the "3" and the "6." My apologies if I've confused it.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Now, did it remain at that location, sir, through all of 1992 and
11 1993, or did the HVO HZ-HB move its office at some -- excuse me, at some
13 A. After my department moved to Hotel Ero, immediately afterwards
14 the HVO also moved the office of the president of the HVO and other
15 departments; justice, the department for refugees, et cetera.
16 Q. If I can still remember, forgive me, is it number 4, location
17 number 4?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And could, in the same fashion, sir, could you draw maybe a
20 diagonal line to separate the "4" and then mark that with the number 7?
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. So is it correct, sir, that during the time when the finance
23 department was located at locations 3 and 6 and again at locations 4 and
24 7, you were at the same locations with Mr. Prlic and the HVO HZ-HB?
25 A. Correct. At number 3 and 6, we were there all the time together,
1 and 4 and 7 -- at 4 and 7, Mr. Prlic's office arrived a little later, but
2 then there was a period of time during which we were both there.
3 Q. And did Mr. Prlic's office remain at the location 4 and 7
4 throughout the remainder of 1993 or did it -- did his office or the HVO
5 HZ-HB, or what became the HR-HB government, did that location change at
6 some point?
7 A. Yes, it changed.
8 Q. And can you look on the map, please, and when you think you've
9 found the approximate location, can you mark that with a number 8?
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. And can you tell us approximately how long did Mr. Prlic and the
12 HVO government or the HR-HB government, whichever it was at the time, how
13 long were those operations located at location 8?
14 A. I think it was until our departure to Sarajevo. I think the HVO
15 HZ-HB was there until that point in time.
16 Q. So again using sort of the measure that we used earlier this
17 afternoon, at least until the end of 1993; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. All right, sir, we're almost finished with this, but a few other
20 locations I'd like to ask you about. We're going to talk in a few
21 minutes about your history and relationship with Mr. Prlic, but I take it
22 that during the years 1992-1993, you knew where Mr. Prlic lived. Is that
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And again if we start with approximately April 1992, during the
1 time of the Special-Purposes Council, for example, and the Crisis Staff,
2 where do you know -- where was Mr. Prlic living around that time? And
3 when you find that location, approximately, can you mark that as
4 number 9?
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And again, using my -- it could have started sometime well before
7 that, but starting at least by, let's say, May 1992, how long did
8 Mr. Prlic continue to live at location number 9, or did he live at that
9 location until at least the end of 1993?
10 A. Mr. Prlic at that point in time was living with me and two of my
11 friends at location number 1.
12 Q. When you say "at that time," when was that? You've just told us
13 a moment ago that his residence was at location number 9, at least as at
14 April/May 1992, in that time period. When did he move to location
15 number 1?
16 A. During that period of time, he moved, because his family had also
17 moved to Makarska. The flat was located in an area that was vulnerable
18 to shelling from Hum. He then moved to my flat, which had a better
19 location given the shelling or shooting from the Hum hill and Podvelezje.
20 Q. All right. Now -- and I'm sorry if I misspoke about location
21 number 1. Is that the time after you had moved in with Mr. Slezak or --
22 let me rephrase my question. When Mr. Prlic moved in with you, was that
23 at location number 1 or location number 2?
24 A. Location number 1.
25 Q. And how long did Mr. Prlic live with you at location -- at that
1 location number 1?
2 A. We moved to location number 2 together.
3 Q. And again remind us, at this part of the record, when was that?
4 A. I think it was at the end of 1992.
5 Q. And how long did Mr. Prlic live with you at that location? And
6 if it helps or if it helps move us along: Did the two of you continue to
7 live at that location until -- at least until the end of 1993 together?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And, again, to be very, very clear, we're now talking about
10 location number 2; is that correct?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And I think only one other location that I want to ask you about.
13 Where was the HVO Department of Defence located? And again we're
14 starting April 1992 and moving forward. Where was the HVO Department of
15 Defence, the place where Mr. Stojic had his office?
16 A. Well, first of all in Grude, and then an office was established
17 in Mostar.
18 Q. Let's go to the time -- excuse me for interrupting you, but in
19 the interests of time, let's go to the point where the office was located
20 in Mostar, since that's the map that we're looking at at the moment.
21 When was a Department of Defence office located, in the sense that we're
22 using it now, Mr. Stojic's office of the Department of Defence, when was
23 that located in Mostar? And if you can find it on the map, sir, I think
24 we're up to number 10, please.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. And how long did Mr. Stojic and the Department of Defence have
2 its main office at that location, number 10?
3 A. I can't say precisely. I know that they later moved to another
4 building, but I don't know exactly when.
5 Q. Another building in Mostar, in West Mostar?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if we could have an IC number for the
8 map, please.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
11 Exhibit number IC 00877. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
13 Q. Moving to --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one follow-up
16 We've learned that you were sharing a flat with Mr. Prlic. Did
17 you pay rent or did -- we would like to know who paid the rent.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I paid the rent, and he and two of
19 my other friends were in my flat because it was safer there, and it was
20 easier for us to obtain logistics, to do logistics matters, because my
21 wife and children weren't there. When I say "logistics," I mean kitchen
22 work and so on.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: To your
24 knowledge, did Mr. Boban have a service flat, or did he stay with
25 someone, or did he live in his own house without this apartment being
1 paid for either by the Republic of Herceg-Bosna or the Croat Community?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Mr. Boban had a
3 house in a village in the suburbs of Grude. It was a privately-owned
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. SCOTT:
7 Q. And just to stay on that moment -- for a moment longer, then:
8 Did Mr. Boban at any time, to your knowledge, in 1993 have either an
9 office or a residence in the town of Mostar
10 A. There was an office for the president of the HZ-HB which moved to
11 location 3 or, rather, 6 on this map, when the HVO HZ-HB moved to
12 Hotel Ero.
13 Q. I suppose that leads us, then, to the next question. You've told
14 us there was a physical office. How often was Mr. Boban, in your
15 experience, how often was Mr. Boban himself actually in Mostar during
16 this time? And, I mean, we're roughly talking mid-1992 until the end of
17 1993, about an 18-month period. I mean, you may have had an office, but
18 perhaps you will tell us he was never there or perhaps he was there every
20 A. He would come very seldom. He spent most of his time in Grude.
21 Q. Now, we're still on locations, but changing gears a bit. During
22 this time period we've been talking about this afternoon so far, roughly,
23 again, April 1992, end of 1993, did you have occasion to be in Sarajevo
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you have any regular points of contact there, and by that I
1 mean did you have friends, business associations -- associates, excuse
2 me, political colleagues? Did you have any persons in Sarajevo during
3 that time period you had regular contact with?
4 A. I didn't have regular contact because there were no
5 communications in that situation, and on the whole, when they left
8 Q. Well, just to make it a bit more specific, if we can, just let me
9 ask you about a couple of particular individuals. There may have been
10 times during that time period, again mid-1992, end of 1993, when, maybe
11 or maybe not, Mr. Franjo Boras may have been in Sarajevo. Did you have
12 any regular dealings during this period with Mr. Boras at any time that
13 he was in Sarajevo
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. How about Mile Akmadzic, did you have any dealings or
16 communications with Mr. Akmadzic during the time when he was -- if any,
17 when he was in Sarajevo
18 A. When he came to Herzegovina
19 had no contact with him while he was in Sarajevo.
20 Q. And just a couple of additional names. How about Mr. Bozo Rajic?
21 Did you have any dealings with Mr. Rajic in Sarajevo during this time
22 period, mid-1992, end of 1993?
23 A. Bozo Rajic was the vice-president of the HZ-HB, and as far as I
24 know during that period of time, he wasn't in Sarajevo, he was in Grude,
25 Citluk, and I know that his family was in the same hotel where my parents
1 were. So I would see him over the weekend, too, at the Adriatic.
2 Q. And I take it that was in Makarska. Is that correct?
3 A. Basko Polje, which is near Makarska.
4 Q. Sir, can you tell us when you first met Jadranko Prlic?
5 A. We knew each other from the streets, from town, but we actually
6 met each other when I was the president of the youth organisation, and
7 that is when we started cooperating more seriously, because at the time
8 he was also the secretary of the Socialist Association of the Working
9 People of Mostar, another political organisation.
10 Q. Is there any short or more common or familiar name for that
11 particular organisation, other than Socialist Association of the Working
12 People of Mostar? I mean, is it the Communist Party, sir, just so we're
14 A. No. It's an organisation which included all political
15 organisations or covered all political organisations active in the town
16 of Mostar at the time of Yugoslavia
17 Association, Communist League, the youth organisation, and the
18 Association of Combatants, trade unions. All these bodies were members
19 of this, well, let's say umbrella organisation.
20 MR. SCOTT: All right, I understand.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tomic, this organisation
22 which brought together a number of organisations, was it typical to
23 Mostar or was this the Communist system at that time that structured
24 things in that way everywhere?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the structure, starting
1 with the federal level, where there was the so-called Socialist Alliance
2 of Working People of Yugoslavia
3 every republic and also in every municipal, across the board.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
5 MR. SCOTT:
6 Q. And did you understand, sir, and again so that we don't get
7 bogged down in some of these -- some of the terminology too much because
8 of time limitations, during that time period did you understand Mr. Prlic
9 to be a member of the Communist Party?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And would it be fair to say, sir, that from that time forward, it
12 may have, if I can use the term, ebbed and flowed a bit, but from that
13 time forward until recently, maybe even today, you and Mr. Prlic have
14 been good friends; is that correct?
15 A. Later on, I cooperated with Mr. Prlic in the government of the
16 city of Mostar, which was known as the Executive Board, of which he was
17 the president and I was the director of the finance or revenue
18 administration. Our relationship during that period of time was mostly
19 official. We did not socialise privately.
20 Q. Let me interrupt you there for a moment, sir, with my apology.
21 During what period of time, again dates, what period of time was
22 Mr. Prlic the president of the Executive Board and you were the director
23 of the finance or revenue administration? Can you give us dates for
24 that, as best you can, a start date and an end date?
25 A. That was after 1986. The term of office was for one year, the
1 time, so I wouldn't be able to give you the exact year, but for one year
2 he was the president of the city government.
3 Q. If we use 1986 as the time when you were involved in this
4 socialist youth organisation, and then we know that you and Mr. Prlic
5 took on certain positions in August 1992, so we're talking about a span
6 of some six years, can you give us some better idea of when, during that
7 time period, Mr. Prlic was the president of the Mostar Executive Board or
9 A. I can't remember the year. I know that he was in office for one
10 year, and then for two years it was Gojko Krsman, but I can't give you
11 the exact years. That was the time when I stopped being with the youth
12 organisation, until 1990. He went to Sarajevo after that and became
13 vice-president of the government there. I can't give you any more
14 precise indication of the year.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were the mayor of Mostar
16 in the year 2000, you told us last week. We have just discovered that
17 Mr. Prlic was the president of the Executive Board for the town of Mostar
18 in 1986, seemingly, or after 1986. So before you, he had headed the
19 Municipality of Mostar
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at the time he was the
21 president of the city government for one year.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, you held
23 similar positions, both of you, but you in the year 2000 and he more than
24 ten years prior to your time?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Similar, but the system changed and
1 the office of mayor was introduced. The system would be similar, but
2 still different.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is what I had understood.
4 MR. SCOTT:
5 Q. Sir, going back to my original question, with this additional
6 explanation and some additional questions which I put to you, which I
7 thank you for your answers, the original question that I put to you was:
8 From that time forward, though, and we went back to the time that you
9 were both involved in the socialist youth and related socialist
10 organisations that you've already discussed with us, from that time
11 forward you and Mr. Prlic have been business or political/governmental
12 associations and also good friends; correct?
13 A. We were not good friends at that time. We did not socialise
14 outside the --
15 Q. My apologies to the witness and interpretation, but again time is
16 precious. When did you become good friends with Mr. Prlic, because you
17 did become -- you are good friends with Mr. Prlic, sir, so approximately
18 when, and have you continued to be good friends with him?
19 A. Correct. That was after 1992, when he returned from America
20 That's when I saw him, when he came to Mostar. And since his family had
21 already left Mostar, he then moved together with two other friends and
22 started living in my apartment, and I --
23 Q. Excuse me. And is it fair to say, then, from at least 1992 and
24 would you consider to the present time, that is, till today, that you are
25 close friends with Mr. Prlic, notwithstanding the current circumstances?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, you said that when you took over the office of finance
3 department head in August 1992, that you found no documents, you found --
4 could not find what we might call any work product by Mr. Prlic, there
5 didn't seem to be an office, there really didn't seem to be much of
6 anything, and lest the Chamber draw perhaps the wrong conclusion from
7 that, let me try to clarify that with you.
8 Do you mean to communicate to the Judges by that that Mr. Prlic
9 was in effective or not doing anything at the time, or was it the case,
10 sir, in fact, that the HVO HZ-HB and its departments were not really
11 operational or doing much until Mr. Prlic became president of the HVO
12 HZ-HB in mid-August 1992?
13 A. Up to then, the finance department was not really established, it
14 did not have a premises, it did not have manpower.
15 MR. SCOTT: And just so the record is clear, Mr. President, and I
16 know that it will be corrected, but just so there's no confusion, in the
17 answer at page 25, line 22, the answer was: "Correct ," the answer to
18 the previous question: "Correct," and starting with the word "Now," of
19 course that starts the next question. I just noticed that.
20 Q. All right. Well, my question to you is focusing more on
21 Mr. Prlic than the premises or the operation of the office. Would you
22 say, in your experience, that Mr. Prlic is a very -- in fact, a very
23 competent, in fact, very talented administrator?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say that Mr. Prlic is the type of person who
1 we might say, and forgive me, I don't know if you have it in your
2 language, but we might say the type of person who dots his "i"s and
3 crosses his "t"s?
4 A. Yes, that's what he always tries to do, to dot his "i"s and cross
5 his "t"s.
6 Q. In addition to his considerable capabilities, would it be fair to
7 say -- would it be fair for the Judges to understand that Mr. Prlic,
8 throughout this time period, was also a very ambitious man?
9 A. What period do you have in mind?
10 Q. 1992, through the 1990s, in fact even before that. You indicated
11 he was the president of the Executive Council, then he was the
12 vice-president of the Bosnian government in the 1980s, early 1990s, then
13 he went to Sarajevo
14 president of the HVO. He took on subsequent senior positions as a pretty
15 young man; correct?
16 A. Correct, yes.
17 Q. Would it be fair for the Judges to understand that Mr. Prlic, in
18 addition to being very capable, was a very ambitious man?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in your eyes is the
21 term "ambitious" a quality or not?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is good -- a good thing in a
23 person and a wish to achieve success in one's job.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. And if we can just again try to work on the dates a bit. I see
1 something here that perhaps may assist us, if you agree or not. In
2 finding a date when Mr. Prlic was, in fact, the deputy prime minister of
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, if I suggested to you, based on some
4 documentation, that that was from approximately 1989 to 1991, does that
5 sound correct to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In addition to being very capable, ambitious, did you also find,
8 in your dealings with Mr. Prlic, both as a friend, as a business
9 colleague, as a political colleague, that he was rather adaptable to the
10 circumstances around him?
11 A. Mr. Prlic, as an educated person, could adapt to the
12 circumstances that prevailed, and he could easily react to all of them.
13 Q. Well, let me put it to you this way, sir: Would it be fair to
14 say that when it was good to be a communist, Mr. Prlic was a good
15 communist; when it was a good to be a Croat nationalist, an HVO
16 president, he was that; and when it was later good to become a moderate,
17 then he held himself out as a moderate?
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection to the form of the question. These are
19 facts that have not been established. Now, if he wants to go one by one,
20 he perhaps can ask an open-ended question, such as, "Was Mr. Prlic ever a
21 nationalist?" So the question presumes facts which are not in evidence,
22 and I object to the form of the question.
23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think the question exactly asked the
24 witness to give the answer. It is -- it's not a "yes" or "no" question,
25 necessarily. It's for him to say -- I asked him a question about being
1 adaptable, and the witness said: "Yes. In fact, as an educated person,
2 Mr. Prlic could adapt to the circumstances that prevailed." To simply
3 illustrate my point, I asked the next question. I believe the witness
4 can answer the question.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I believe that your
6 question is very complex. It's a question that could have been broken
7 down into several questions, because he can answer in the negative. You
8 can put the question to him again, if you like, and we'll see what he
10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. Let's perhaps come back to
11 it with some additional -- after some addition evidence has been covered.
12 Q. The two of you during this time period, 1992, 1993, 1994, had
13 occasion to travel together when he was president of the HVO and you were
14 the head of the finance department?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And just as one example that I came across, the two of you
17 travelled to Zagreb
18 at the Intercontinental Hotel in Zagreb during times when you were
19 meeting there with President Tudjman or the Croatian government; is that
21 A. Yes, but we did not share one room. We each had our own room.
22 Q. Well, perhaps you can turn to Exhibit P08138, and if we can pull
23 out the binders for perhaps the first time. P08138, binder number 2.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, there's a
1 Judge Mindua.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I have a short
4 I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the question you put to the
5 witness. You wanted to know whether the accused Prlic was an ambitious
6 man. Would this not be speculation, insofar as we have no objective
7 facts to substantiate this? For instance, whether this man was an
8 educated man, that can be substantiated with facts. But you did not
9 pursue the matter.
10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we have a witness before us who's known
11 Mr. Prlic since the late -- since the 1980s, probably something at
12 least something like 30 years in a variety of contexts, and I believe
13 this witness in fact is an excellent person to give us his assessment and
14 comment on Mr. Prlic and the person he is. So I'll leave the testimony
15 for the Chamber's consideration, of course.
16 Q. Sir, if you can find -- and I don't mean to spend a lot of time
17 on it, but just since you mentioned it, if you can find Exhibit 8138.
18 And do you recall Mr. Susak's secretary, Ms. Zlojic [phoen], who I think
19 either at that time or later became the wife of Mr. Gotovina, who is also
20 on trial in this institution, do you recall Ms. Zlojic, Mr. Susak's
21 secretary, making -- booking for one room for you and Mr. Prlic at the
22 Intercontinental Hotel in March 1994? That's one double room in your
23 hotel for 31 March and 1 April 1994
24 Mr. Jadranko Prlic; number 2, Mr. Tomic. Does that refresh your memory?
25 A. I know that we were at the Intercontinental Hotel and that we had
1 a double room each.
2 Q. All right. Well, be that as it may, was that normally the way --
3 when you would travel to Zagreb
4 government officials there, such as Mr. Tudjman, Mr. Susak and others,
5 would the Croatian government arrange your hotel room and travel for you?
6 A. Sometimes we would bear our own cost, and during this particular
7 period of time the Ministry of Defence had a location and a price
8 agreement with the Hotel Intercontinental, so that we would only approach
9 that ministry to reserve our rooms through them.
10 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. President, I see the time and I'm
11 about to change topics. If that might be a time for a break.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have a 20-minute
14 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have the floor.
17 [No interpretation].
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Mr. Tomic, if we can go back for a moment to the locations in
20 Mostar, and I think we can do it without having the map. That will save
21 a bit of time, perhaps.
22 Location number 2, you had indicated, was what we might call the
23 north edge -- the top -- or the top side of the map or the north edge.
24 Well, let me not confuse the issue by saying "north." At the top of the
25 map as oriented as we were looking at it. And you said the location was
1 off the map. Just so it's clear, can you tell us, what was the street
2 address? If you can't show it on the map, can you give us the
3 approximate street address of the location that was off the map?
4 A. It was a small street which intersected with the street of
5 Blajburg victims. The street was so small that it only had four house
6 numbers, approximately.
7 Q. And when you say "off the map," can you give us some idea, again
8 for the future, are we talking about a hundred metres off the map, are we
9 talking about a kilometre; how far off that map in that direction of your
10 arrow was that location?
11 A. Looking at intersection denoted by number 2, it would be some 200
12 to 300 metres away from that intersection.
13 Q. And finally, sir, on that point: During the time when you and, I
14 understand, Mr. Prlic were living at location number 2, and given the
15 various locations -- your office locations also marked on the map, how
16 did you travel from the place that you were residing to the office
17 locations where you worked?
18 A. I had a vehicle. I had a driver as well. He would drive me to
19 the place where my office was.
20 Q. And was that true, to your knowledge, for Mr. Prlic as well?
21 A. Yes, he also had a driver.
22 Q. Now, going back to some of the positions that Mr. Prlic held at
23 various times, just before we move forward, after he was -- after he left
24 as the president or head of the Herceg-Bosna government, did he at some
25 point become the Minister of Defence in the Federation?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Approximately when was that and how long, approximately, from
3 date to date did he hold the position of Defence minister?
4 A. I believe that this was during the period from our arrival in
6 moment when the Federation government split from the government of the
7 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. And as to that second event, you still can't recall approximately
9 when that was, or can you?
10 A. I believe that this was in mid-1994, if my memory serves me well.
11 I apologise. It was in mid-1995.
12 Q. All right. Sir, in terms of this case, apart from Mr. Karnavas,
13 have you talked or met with anyone about your testimony in this case or
14 what you expected, before coming here, what you expected your testimony
15 would be?
16 A. No. I spoke to Mr. Karnavas and his team.
17 Q. And have you met or spoken to any of the accused since this trial
18 began in April 2006?
19 A. During their stay in Croatia
20 released, I met Mr. Pusic; only him, of the six of them.
21 Q. All right. Have you spoken to or met with Mr. Prlic during that
22 time period, since April 2006 to the present day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when was that, please?
25 A. When he stayed, i.e., when he was provisionally released, I took
1 an opportunity and visited him on one occasion just for one day.
2 Q. When, approximately, was that, sir, the best you can; month,
4 A. Every time when he went out, we would meet for a day.
5 Q. And you would meet for a day. So you would spend a day together
6 whenever Mr. Prlic would be provisionally released?
7 A. Those were mostly family visits around lunchtime or just for
8 cakes and tea in the afternoon, so it would not take a whole day. At the
9 most, it would be a couple of hours.
10 Q. All right. So let me make sure I understand, sir. Would it be
11 fair to say, then, and if I'm wrong, then I'm sure you'll say so, but
12 would it be accurate to say that on each occasion when Mr. Prlic has been
13 on provisional release in this case, whenever that has been, that you've
14 always spent some time with him during that time?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. When you have met with anyone in connection or on behalf of
17 Mr. Prlic, in connection with this case, has anyone, while talking to
18 you, taken any notes or operated any sort of recording device?
19 A. I didn't have the opportunity of speaking to a lot of people
20 about this case. I did speak to someone --
21 Q. Let me assist you. Now I'm talking about the group of people
22 working with Mr. Karnavas. And I'm not asking you to tell us at this
23 moment anything -- let me be very clear. I'm not asking you to tell us
24 anything about what Mr. Karnavas or his associates may have said or not
25 said to you. But during any times when you were being questioned,
1 meetings with you, interviewed, was anyone taking notes or operating any
2 sort of recording device?
3 A. They mostly took notes.
4 Q. And have you ever signed anything that might be described as a
5 statement or any sort of record of what you've said during a time that
6 you were meeting with anyone acting on behalf of Mr. Prlic? Did anyone
7 later give you a recording or give you a statement and ask you to review
8 it in any way and affirm it, in any way? Whether you signed it or not,
9 you said, "Yeah, that's what I said"?
10 A. No, I didn't sign anything.
11 Q. You indicated to Mr. Karnavas that in recent days, you had -- or
12 sometime -- strike that. I'm not sure exactly when, but at some point
13 you provided him with approximately 54 documents. What were the -- what
14 was the source of those documents?
15 A. These were documents from my own private archives.
16 Q. How large a private archive would you say you have? Do you have
17 hundreds of documents, or just these 54, or how many documents from this
18 time period, 1992, 1993, 1994, how many documents do you have?
19 A. I have the documents that I submitted. These documents were ones
20 that had to do with the Council for Special Purposes, which did not have
21 an archives of its own. Those documents, or some of them, remained with
22 me, at I was one of the coordinators within that council, and there was
23 some documents that have to do to the period that was subsequent to the
24 Washington Agreement and had to do with the negotiations between the
25 Croatian and Bosniak side with regard to establishing a financial system.
1 These documents were in my possession. I, in fact, don't have any other
2 private documents.
3 Q. Excuse me, sorry. I think we got the rest of your answer. My
4 apology. Apart from the -- strike that. When you say that you had these
5 documents from back during the time, are these all documents that you had
6 kept -- just you had kept them personally throughout this time period or
7 were any of these documents provided to you by someone else?
8 A. These documents were ones that I had myself, on the whole, and no
9 one gave them to me.
10 Q. Did you meet with a man named Cvikl in December 2007?
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. Where did you meet him?
13 A. In Zagreb
14 Q. Who arranged that meeting?
15 A. It was through Mr. Karnavas' office.
16 Q. And how long would you say that you spent with Mr. Cvikl on this
17 occasion in December 2007?
18 A. Three or four hours.
19 Q. And during the time you were meeting with Mr. Cvikl, was anyone
20 else in the room or involved in these matters, or was it just the two of
21 you, you and Mr. Cvikl?
22 A. Just the two of us.
23 Q. And where did you actually meet, physically? I know Zagreb
24 a hotel, an office, your home -- or, sorry, strike that, not your home,
25 but where?
1 A. Hotel Intercontinental, which is now called Hotel Westin.
2 Q. And during that time period, sir, I'll ask you a question similar
3 to the one I asked you a few minutes ago. Was Mr. Cvikl taking notes, or
4 operating any sort of recording device, or making a record of his
5 conversation with you during that three- to four-hour period, did you
7 A. He noted a few things on a piece of paper.
8 Q. And did you understand at the time, sir, when this was arranged,
9 that Mr. Cvikl was apparently talking to you in connection with preparing
10 a report that would be given to the Judges in this case?
11 A. Yes, that's what he told me.
12 Q. Did you provide any documents to Mr. Cvikl?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Since you began giving your testimony at approximately 9.00 last
15 Monday morning, have you spoken with anyone about your testimony? And I
16 mean anyone.
17 A. Apart from my wife, no.
18 Q. Apart from the documents that have been shown to you in the
19 courtroom, have you seen or looked at any materials or documents or notes
20 of any sort related to the subjects of your testimony since beginning
21 your testimony, other than what you've been shown in the courtroom?
22 A. In the proofing session, I saw a certain number of documents.
23 Q. All right. And my particular question to you now, sir, is that:
24 After your testimony began last Monday, have you seen -- apart from the
25 documents that Mr. Karnavas or now myself or anyone else has shown you in
1 the courtroom, have you looked at any other -- consulted any other
2 materials or information outside the courtroom?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Going back to the time period that we've been talking about
5 primarily today, that is, approximately mid-1992 until April -- excuse
6 me, the end of 1993, excuse me, did you ever have any conversations or
7 direct meetings or involvement with Mr. Izetbegovic?
8 A. Mr. Izetbegovic visited Mostar towards the end of 1992, I think,
9 and on that occasion I met him.
10 Q. Did you ever, apart from meeting him -- well, was that meeting
11 in -- are you considering that to be pretty much of a social occasion, in
12 terms of you were somewhere together, you introduced yourself and met
13 him, or were you participating in an actual, you know, meeting of some
14 sort together?
15 A. He spent two days in Mostar, I believe, and on one day we had a
16 meeting in the headquarters of the HVO HZ-HB. It was chaired by
17 Mr. Prlic. Mr. Izetbegovic and his delegation attended that meeting on
18 that day or on the following day. It was Bajram Muslim holiday, so we
19 also socialised on a private basis. This, I think, was organised by the
20 Muslim organisation called Preporod or Rebirth.
21 Q. And apart from that occasion then, sir, did you have any
22 communications or dealings with Mr. Izetbegovic during this period
23 mid-1992 to the end of 1993?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And I take it, sir, what I suspect the answer will be, but again
1 just so the record is very clear: Did you attend any meetings or
2 sessions of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the period
3 mid-1992 to the end of 1993?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you attend any meetings of the government of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if we might use the term "Cabinet," not the
7 Presidency, but the group of people around the prime minister? Did you
8 have any occasion to attend any meeting or session of that group during
9 the period mid-1992 to the end of 1993?
10 A. I didn't attend any sessions. I had contact with individual
11 members who would come to Mostar, and on one occasion there was a meeting
12 in the headquarters of the office of the government in Zagreb.
13 Q. You attended that meeting, I take it, the one in the office of
14 the government, as you describe it, in Zagreb.
15 A. Yes, on one occasion I was there.
16 Q. Approximately when was that?
17 A. I think it was towards the end of 1992.
18 Q. And just so there's -- again so there's no confusion in the
19 future, when you say "the office of the government in Zagreb
20 it -- I understood you to be saying this was some sort of office operated
21 by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb, not the Croatian
22 government. Is that correct?
23 A. Correct. It was the office of -- the office of the government of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb.
25 Q. In connection with your work with the HVO HZ-HB, was there
1 something in the HVO method of working or process called a work
3 A. There was no such programme in the form of a document at the
4 beginning or initially; only later on.
5 Q. And later on, approximately when?
6 A. I think it was in 1993 or 1994.
7 Q. And who would prepare these programmes? Sorry, my apologies.
8 Let's go back for a step -- let's go back a step.
9 What was the purpose of these programmes?
10 A. Well, the departments had to present their activities for the
11 upcoming period and state what their financial needs were in order to
13 Q. And so each department would prepare these programmes from time
14 to time?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. So, for example, in the finance department, you would prepare, or
17 someone working on your behalf, which perhaps you would ultimately
18 approval and sign, you or your staff would prepare a programme -- a work
19 programme for the finance department; is that correct?
20 A. We prepared such a programme within the department. I signed it
21 and then sent it to the HVO HZ-HB, which would then adopt a consolidated
22 programme, which we would then discuss. And on the basis of this
23 programme, we could then see what the activities of other departments for
24 a given period were.
25 Q. And was this done on an annual basis, a quarterly basis; how
1 often would these programmes be prepared and submitted by each department
2 to the HVO HZ-HB?
3 A. Initially, very seldom, every three months, but I believe that
4 the first real programme was drawn up for 1994, and it included a budget
5 as an integral part of that programme.
6 Q. All right. Now, going back -- going back for a moment, before we
7 turn to some other topics, to your history with Mr. Prlic. Have you and
8 Mr. Prlic ever been involved in business together or any business
9 ventures, investors in the same projects? Have you conducted business or
10 been investors together during the time of your friendship?
11 A. No, we were never co-investors in the business sense.
12 Q. So, for example, are you saying, sir, that the two of you have
13 never been involved in business together or invested together, for
14 example, in businesses dealing with oil?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Did you ever have anything to do with a company called Interina
18 A. It's a branch firm of Ina in Zagreb, which provided Bosnia
20 Q. And did either you and/or Mr. Prlic have any dealings,
21 investments, involvement in that company?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said a few moments ago that you met with Mr. Prlic, if I
24 understand correctly, on each occasion -- or have met with him on each
25 occasion when he's been on provisional release. Do you recall
1 approximately the last time you met with Mr. -- or spent time with
2 Mr. Prlic while released?
3 A. This summer in Makarska.
4 Q. The summer of 2008, to be accurate?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you mentioned on one occasion, if I'd heard correctly, that
7 you'd also met Mr. Pusic. Approximately what date was that?
8 A. I met Mr. Pusic this summer, too.
9 Q. And where?
10 A. In the Westin Hotel in Zagreb
11 Q. All right. And maybe I heard correctly or maybe I didn't. Is
12 that the only time you've met Mr. Pusic or have you met him on other
14 A. We also met when he was there on one previous occasion.
15 Q. Where?
16 A. In a cafe in Zagreb
17 Q. And approximately when was that?
18 A. I couldn't say precisely. I know that I was there with my two
19 children. I just came to greet him because I was going on a trip. But
20 as to when that was exactly, I don't know.
21 Q. Concerning the Mostar Crisis Staff, although Mr. Karnavas did
22 indeed ask you the question several times, I'm not sure that we ever
23 really got a full answer. You were a member of the Mostar Crisis Staff
24 in May 1992; correct?
25 A. Yes, I was an associated member.
1 Q. What does it mean to be an associated member?
2 A. Well, it means that the Crisis Staff designated me and my
3 colleague, Kazazic, to deal with certain activities in the sphere of
5 Q. Sir, during that time, on behalf of the HVO, what was the HVO or
6 the HDZ, whichever of these organisations you want to refer to at that
7 time, you were the principal organiser of finances during that time
8 period; correct? I mean, you weren't just an associated member. You
9 were the finance man, weren't you?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I think the question is
11 rather unclear. Are we still during the period of the Crisis Staff, when
12 he was appointed by Gagro and others?
13 MR. SCOTT: During that -- sorry, excuse me, Mr. Karnavas. Yes,
14 that's correct, Mr. President, that's the time I was referring to, in
15 reference to the Crisis Staff.
16 Q. You were the principal person dealing with finances during that
17 time, weren't you?
18 A. No. The principal person was a member of the Crisis Staff,
19 Mrs. Bulka [phoen]. She was the secretary for Finance for the Mostar
20 municipality before the Crisis Staff was established, and she became a
21 member of the Crisis Staff. I and my colleague Kazazic were subsequently
22 appointed, because the financial sphere wasn't functioning properly. We
23 were engaged for special operations that had to do with the public
24 accounting service at the time. I wasn't the main person dealing with
25 finance. I had been appointed by the Crisis Staff to deal with certain
2 Q. So that we have it correctly in the record, it may be that
3 it's -- it may be that it is, but "Bulka," can you spell Ms. Buljko's
4 last name, please?
5 A. B-U-L-J-K-O. Correct.
6 Q. Thank you very much. All right. Well, I'm just wondering, then.
7 Did she continue to be the principal finance person, then, throughout the
8 summer and fall of 1992 or did you take on that position or
9 responsibility at some point during that time period?
10 A. In August, I was appointed as the head of the finance department
11 of the HVO HZ-HB. From the time when the Crisis Staff fell apart, well,
12 at that time I was a member of the Council for Special Purposes, whose
13 task it was to protect property, to administer property and companies, in
14 the sense of establishing the preconditions for defence and for supplying
15 the population and staff members of companies. This body didn't have an
16 administrative character, in the sense of administering of public
18 Q. All right. Let's go forward, then, to the time when you became
19 the head of the finance department. Let me just take us through some
20 things and see if we can -- if we can avoid going to all the documents,
21 we will try to do that.
22 The HVO HZ-HB was set up and functioned with a number of
23 departments in the government, is that correct; Defence, Finance,
24 Interior? There were a number of departments that were -- that reported
25 to the HVO HZ-HB; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And, in fact, the HVO HZ-HB consisted of or was comprised of the
3 president, vice-presidents, the department heads and potentially other
4 members; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. So during the second half of 1992, that included, among others,
7 Mr. Prlic, as president, Mr. Stojic, as head of the defence department,
8 and yourself as head of the finance department; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And the head of each department was responsible for the work of
11 that department; correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And you reported -- as the head of each department, you reported
14 and were accountable to the HVO HZ-HB; is that right?
15 A. We submitted reports, programmes and reports on the work -- on
16 our work to the HVO HZ-HB and to the Presidency of the HZ-HB.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a minor intervention, Your Honour, for future
18 purposes. The previous question was compound, and of course it's very
19 difficult to say "yes" or "no". You know, reported, accounted, now,
20 those are two different aspects, so I would kindly ask that we go, you
21 know, one fact per declarative statement with the inflection, thus making
22 it a leading question, as opposed to making it compound.
23 Thank you.
24 MR. SCOTT: I'll try to do better, Your Honour.
25 Q. Sir, would you agree that -- and I'm referring to some of the HVO
1 documentation at the time, if anyone wants to look at it. I'm referring
2 to P00303, 3 July 1992
3 the executive body. But you would agree, wouldn't you, that it was the
4 HVO HZ-HB which was to regulate the work of each department; correct?
6 A. There are decisions that determine what the work of each
7 department is.
8 Q. Sir, the HVO regulated the activities, structure, operational
9 framework and powers of the departments; correct?
10 A. Departments had authority on the basis of decisions on
11 establishing these departments.
12 Q. The HVO supervised the work of the departments, and the HVO had
13 the ability to annul or abolish anything that a department did; correct?
14 A. The department tabled proposals, and they were autonomous in
15 their proposal submission. The HVO discussed the proposals, and as a
16 result the texts were corrected and amended, and finally if the head of
17 the department was in agreement with the corrections, the proposal that
18 was tabled was voted on, and that's how our regulations were passed in
19 the HVO HZ-HB.
20 Q. All right. Well, let's go to Exhibit P00303, then. It should be
21 in the first binder, sir, and it will be tabbed hopefully for you in
22 numerical order.
23 And I believe, sir, if it will assist you or orient you, I don't
24 know if they are organised in a similar fashion in Mr. Karnavas'
25 documents or not, but you'll find the English translation on top and then
1 you'll find the Croatian language version behind it. If you could find
2 303. And once you've done that, could you please turn to
3 Article number 6 or find Article number 6.
4 Article 6 provides, does it not:
5 "The HVO shall regulate the activities, structure, operational
6 framework and powers of its departments in accordance with regulations
7 passed by the Presidency"; correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And turning to Article 14:
10 "The HVO shall supervise the work of its departments and
11 municipal HVOs. The HVO may use its supervisory power to annul or
12 abolish individual legal acts passed by the bodies referred to in the
13 foregoing paragraph."
14 Do you recall any occasion in which the HVO annulled or abolished
15 any act taken by the finance department during the time when you were
16 head of the finance department? Not "didn't approve" in the sense of
17 initial proposals were put on the table, there was a vote, they were
18 voted up or down, but once something -- you had done something, you had
19 taken some action, you had taken a step on something, you had made a
20 departmental decision, do you recall any occasion when the HVO annulled
21 or abolished or, if you will, undid that action?
22 A. As far as I can remember, there was just once when a municipal
23 decision was discussed. I can't remember which municipality it was. And
24 that's the only thing that I can remember within that particular context.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tomic. Let me go back and clarify my question,
1 although you certainly anticipated another question, in any event.
2 Focusing for a moment on the Department of Finance, the
3 department that you were the head of, do you recall any acts or decisions
4 of your department that were abolished or undone by the HVO HZ-HB?
5 A. No, I can't remember.
6 Q. You can't remember that there ever was one or you can't remember
7 one way or the other?
8 A. I can't remember a decision which was annulled. I should say the
9 HVO, of its own will, annulled a decision. If a department proposed
10 something, it was a correction or a change of a decision which the HVO
11 then adopted. But for the HVO to raise an issue on its own initiative
12 and to annul a decision, I can't remember.
13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with a bit of
14 reservation, because I don't know whether this is due to interpretation
15 or recording error, my learned friend read paragraph 14.2, where it says:
16 [In English] "Annul or abolish individual legal act,"
17 individual -- [Interpretation] "Individual" is the operative word here
18 which has to be stressed. According to our traditional administrative
19 doctrine, there are the so-called general administrative acts like a
20 decision decree, something that applies to a wide range of subjects, and
21 there are also individual administrative acts or documents which apply to
22 a very specific legal person, i.e., to the existence or non-existence of
23 the rights of a certain person.
24 Paragraph 2 regulates individual administrative documents or
25 documents that apply to individuals. That's what my learned friend has
1 just warned me to something that is the literal wording in the text. So
2 the situation is entirely different here. We cannot apply this to HZ-HB
3 deciding on a decree that they themselves passed or its department or
4 municipality. That is according to paragraph 1. However, we are now
5 discussing paragraph 2.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you are currently
8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to explain in order
9 to put a correct and fair question to the witness. My learned friend
10 Scott is not a Croatian lawyer and he does not know the system, and the
11 witness himself cannot understand the system because he is not a lawyer.
12 I just wanted to explain things. I believe that in your states, given
13 the tradition, there is a system division when it comes to administrative
14 documents. That's as far as I can remember from my school days. I just
15 wanted to remind you of these things.
16 However, the fact that my learned friend is putting questions to
17 the witness about paragraph 2, i.e., the individual documents and at the
18 same time he is talking about general documents pertaining to
19 paragraph 2, this is confusing. This is not the way to do things.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
21 MR. SCOTT:
22 Q. Sir, if you'll look at Article 13, you'll agree that it provides:
23 "The HVO has the right and duty to annul a regulation passed by a
24 department or other administrative body which is detrimental to the
25 general interest or which contravenes established policy or positive
2 Do you see that and, secondly, did you understand that to be, in
3 fact, the power of the HVO?
4 A. Yes, this defines certain powers. For example, if I, as a
5 department head, issue an instruction contrary to the instructions passed
6 by the HZ-HB, in keeping with this article the HZ-HB is allowed to annul
7 such a regulation. However, I don't remember any such thing ever having
8 happened in my practice. I can't remember that.
9 Q. If you look, please, next at Article number 9, the same document,
10 it provides, does it not:
11 "The HVO president shall be in charge of the work of the HVO,"
12 that is, Mr. Prlic, "and shall be held accountable for it. He shall
13 ensure the unity of the political and administrative activities of the
14 HVO, cooperate with other bodies and organisations of the HZ-HB, and
15 direct the activities of the HVO as a whole and its members
16 as individuals."
17 So when you filed these reports and, among other things that you
18 talked about a few moments ago, these departmental documents that would
19 be prepared, for example, they would ultimately go to, among others, to
20 Mr. Prlic as president; correct?
21 A. Yes, they are addressed to the office of the president and, as
22 such, they were delivered to his office.
23 Q. In Article 7, the second clause, it says:
24 "The Presidency of the HZ-HB," and I think everyone in the
25 courtroom knows that's referring to the legislative body: "The
1 Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss the other members," and
2 this is a section talking about the composition of the HVO, "at the
3 proposal of the HVO president."
4 So would you agree, sir, that Mr. Prlic had the ability, he had
5 the power, to propose the appointment and dismissal of other members of
6 the HVO HZ-HB?
7 A. Well, this is as per Article 7.
8 Q. And just as an example, to your -- during the time that you were
9 a member of the HVO HZ-HB, did Mr. Prlic ever propose the dismissal of
10 Mr. Stojic as head of the Department of Defence?
11 A. I don't know anything about that.
12 Q. You don't know anything or, to your knowledge, that never
13 happened? Mr. Prlic, to your knowledge, never proposed the dismissal of
14 Mr. Stojic as head of the defence department; correct?
15 A. I don't know about that.
16 Q. During the time from August 1992 to August 1993, did Mr. Prlic
17 propose the dismissal of any department head?
18 A. I know that the secretary of the HVO was replaced.
19 Q. When was that?
20 A. In late 1992, I believe, the gentleman who did not perform
21 properly or according to expectations.
22 Q. Who was that, sir, by name, please?
23 A. Mr. Ivan Tomic.
24 Q. Any relation?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And your understanding is that Mr. Ivan Tomic is removed from his
2 position as secretary of the HVO because of, essentially, incompetence or
4 A. Yes, there were objections by several departments, and a
5 particular problem was the fact that he did not organise the publication
6 of the Official Gazette. As a result of those objections, he was
7 dismissed from that position.
8 Q. So the HVO HZ-HB did have the power and at least on one occasion
9 did have the ability to remove and dismiss people from positions;
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, can we be a little more specific?
12 "People," you know, we're talking about a secretary versus a department
13 head, so perhaps --
14 MR. SCOTT: Anyone.
15 Q. Anyone, sir. We went over the last few minutes that the
16 department heads report to the HVO, that they file reports, that they're
17 accountable to the HVO, and we indicated that the Presidency, in
18 Article 7, the second clause, you may recall, sir, provided that the
19 Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss the other members of
20 the HVO government at the proposal of the president. Now, other members
21 of the HVO government are, among others, the department heads; correct?
22 A. I was talking about a procedure to dismiss the secretary. The
23 HVO had appointed the secretary, and as a result of objections by
24 departments, he was dismissed. I don't know of any situation in which
25 heads of departments or members of the HVO were treated in the same way,
1 because the secretary of the HVO was not a member of the HVO. He was
2 just an administrative officer on behalf of the HVO.
3 Q. Well, let's go back to Article 7 of P00303. Article 7 provides:
4 "The HVO shall be comprised of: The president, vice-presidents,
5 department heads and other members."
6 Who was included in "and other members"?
7 A. Heads of sub-departments, because there were also sub-departments
8 as a category. For example, the sub-department for education, culture
9 and sports. It was a sub-department. However, its head was a member of
10 the HVO.
11 Q. All right. Well, building on all that, sir, and perhaps as some
12 clarification I come back to a similar question to one I asked you a few
13 minutes ago: To your knowledge, sir, during the period from August 1992
14 until the end of 1993, did the HVO president, Mr. Prlic, propose, as
15 provided in Article 7, the dismissal of any member of the HVO HZ-HB,
16 including any of the department heads?
17 A. I don't know that this happened.
18 Q. Let's go to document P09530, which will be the last document in
19 binder number 2. P09530. These are the rules of procedure of the HVO
20 HZ-HB that were put in place, apparently, in November -- at least by
21 November 1992, according to the first page. In fact, I believe they were
22 actually signed by Mr. Prlic on the last page on the 14th of October,
24 Sir, if I can direct your attention, please, to Article 8, and
25 the document is such that there is -- there's another decision on the
1 front of it, Your Honour, just the way the documents were compiled. But
2 when you get down to page 3, you will get to the rules of procedure of
3 the Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.
4 And in that document, sir, if you can go to Article number 8. I
5 asked you earlier about the programmes of work, and this is a section
6 actually going up to Article 7 in the section, it's called "Programming
7 of Work," and it says:
8 "The programme of work shall be adopted by the HVO. The
9 president and the secretary of the HVO shall supervise the implementation
10 of the programme of the HVO."
11 Article number 9:
12 "The bodies of the HVO shall be bound to implement the programme
13 of work and monitor its execution. In case of their failure to execute
14 the tasks set by the programme of work, the bodies of the HVO shall be
15 bound to submit a timely report on the reasons for the failure to the
16 president of the HVO."
17 Now, these programmes -- these programmes were, in fact, being
18 submitted as early as the end of 1992 and early 1993, weren't they?
19 A. When it comes to finance, we drafted monthly or quarterly budget
20 proposals, and in the second half of the year 1993, was the realistic
21 time for the preparation of these programmes. The book of rules was
22 issued towards the end of October 1992, and it clearly defines
23 everything. In other words, we submitted the programme of work for our
24 respective departments, as their heads, and we submitted those to the
25 HVO, who then issued a consolidated/coordinated programme of work and
1 monitored its execution. And if my department was not in a position to
2 secure the finances in time, I was duty-bound to inform the HVO about
3 that. This served for the other departments that were tied with the
4 Department of Finance to be able to adjust the rate of their activities.
5 In other words, no money, no reconstruction of a facility building, and
6 that then had to be moved forward to another period, and so on and so
8 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the other departments, just like the
9 finance department, to the best of your knowledge, proceeded on the same
10 basis; they prepared programmes, work programmes, and which were
11 submitted to the HVO, and made reports to the HVO, and indeed were
12 accountable to the HVO; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Excuse me. In Exhibit 9530, if we go to Article 47, which is
15 quite a bit further down into the document, please -- excuse me, my
16 apologies. I've sent you to the wrong place, but it's close. Not so
18 Article 13. My apologies to everyone. If you go back to
19 Article 13, sir, page 6 of the English version, actually then carrying
20 over to the top of page 7, the second item on page 7 says:
21 "The opinion of the Department of Finance relative to the
22 necessary funds, sources, and the manner in which the enforcement of the
23 regulations and other enactments will be funded."
24 Now, this was an opinion, as I understand it, that was required
25 in connection with any sort of proposed decision or policy coming before
1 the HVO HZ-HB. Is that correct?
2 A. For each document, for each rule that involved cost or revenues,
3 an opinion had to be obtained from the Ministry of Finance or Department
4 of Finance.
5 Q. Could we characterize that as something like a financial impact
6 statement, that it was -- if a particular decision or action was
7 proposed, it was up to the Department of Finance to determine how that
8 decision or action or programme would affect the financial capacity of
9 the HVO?
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Scott. I'm slightly lost. Could
11 you indicate again where, exactly, you are quoting from?
12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I'm sorry. My apologies.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Page 5.
14 MR. SCOTT: Page -- I'm at the top of page 7 of page 9530, in
15 Article 13, and the language I was referring to a few moments ago was the
16 opinion that would be rendered by the Department of Finance.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I must rule in favour of Mr. Karnavas. I find
18 this is page 5 in the document I have before me.
19 MR. SCOTT: All right. Maybe we've got --
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: "L 0024396" on the top.
21 MR. SCOTT: We must have different page numbers. I apologise for
22 that. If we're looking at Article -- can we find -- can we agree that
23 we're looking at Article 13?
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes.
25 MR. SCOTT: Well, I don't know what happened. I must have a
1 different translation. My apologies. My Article 13 is on page 6 and 7,
2 and my apologies to the courtroom for that.
3 Q. But under Article 13, there is a beginning paragraph which says:
4 "The documents shall be submitted." Then there are three what might be
5 called bullet items under that, the opinion of the Commission for
6 Regulations, the opinion of the Department of Finance, the opinion of the
7 Department of Justice and Administration, and I'm focusing on the opinion
8 of the Department of Finance, and I apologise for the confusion.
9 So going back to my question, sir, is this something that
10 essentially your department was responsible for, some decision or action
11 would be proposed, and you had to assess the financial impact on the HVO,
12 where the funds would come from, how this would be carried out
13 financially; is that correct? Is that what this is about?
14 A. This is regulated by Article 13.
15 Q. Yes. And what I just put to you, sir, is that a proper
16 description of what this is really about? Some action or policy would be
17 proposed, and it was up to your department to do some sort of financial
18 analysis as to the financial impacts of such decision or action on the
19 HVO, where the funding would come from, et cetera? Is that what this is
20 talking about?
21 A. This was a customary procedure for passing regulations, and
22 that's how it was incorporated in the document. However, in practice,
23 the letter of the document was not followed through fully.
24 Q. All right. Well, we'll eventually come to some additional
25 documents on that.
1 Now, if you could go in the Defence binder -- binder of Defence
2 exhibits, which is the fourth binder -- it's a smaller binder, and I
3 don't know if it's labelled binder number 4, but the fourth binder, which
4 is 1D 02136.
5 Sir, this is a document that I believe we looked at earlier, if
6 I'm not mistaken, last week. Just related to what we were just talking
7 about, was it also part of the responsibility of your department to make
8 financial projections, if you will, as to the revenues or funds that
9 would be collected and available to the HVO government for conducting its
10 operations, and is that reflected on 1D 02136?
11 A. Well, in accordance with the decree on the budget for the HZ-HB,
12 the finance department had to secure the funds for the functioning of the
13 department, and in accordance with that decree the departments needed to
14 submit their requests on a monthly basis and every three months. We're
15 still discussing a period during which there wasn't an entire budget for
16 the HZ-HB. We had monthly plans and quarterly plans.
17 Here we have a conclusion from a period when there were
18 additional obstructions in municipalities for paying revenue into the
19 budget, after the conflict broke out between the Muslims and the Croats,
20 and on that occasion I reported to the HVO HZ-HB and informed them that
21 funds weren't being found. And this conclusion, in fact, confirmed our
22 duty. It's all in the law on the budget. But given the situation, this
23 just emphasised the fact again.
24 Q. It's correct, is it not, and you testified about this last week,
25 that the various department heads would bring their financial needs to
1 the HVO HZ-HB, including Mr. Stojic on behalf of the Department of
2 Defence, and among other things, each department head would brief, if you
3 will, inform the HVO HZ-HB about the work of its department -- of his or
4 her department and situations they were involved in; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And in terms of financing, this particular document 1D 02136
7 relates to defence financing, would it be fair to say that that
8 includes -- I'm talking about financing defence, that includes such
9 things as logistics?
10 A. Yes, financial sources run out and for defence needs, well, it
11 was necessary to assess the revenue coming in for the following month.
12 Q. But apart from revenue, when you look at such things as
13 logistics, that would include such things as -- well, in the military
14 context, that would include such things as manpower, wouldn't it,
15 personnel? You can't have an army without soldiers, can you?
16 A. Well, funds were allocated to the defence department. Funds were
17 allocated up until the budget was established. And as I said, the first
18 budget, which clearly specified what would be allocated to staff for
19 material needs, for special purposes, well, the first budget was for
20 1994, the first such budget. During this period, funds were allocated to
21 the defence department, and they used these funds in accordance with
22 their programme and needs.
23 Q. Sir, you testified last Wednesday that the usual thing -- the
24 usual way how things are done is that through financing and logistics,
25 there is civilian control over the army. Civilian control over an army
1 is established and exercised largely through its control over financing
2 and logistics; correct?
3 A. We financed the defence department, so it comprised a number of
4 sectors, all of which represented the way in which that department
6 Q. And that was one of the ways -- some of the important ways, sir,
7 is it not correct, that the HVO HZ-HB exercised power and control over
8 the departments, including the Department of Defence, was through such
9 things as financing and logistics; correct?
10 A. Through the working programme and the report on work. These were
11 the means that the HVO HZ-HB could use to influence certain departments,
12 and that included the Department of Defence.
13 Q. Well, let me just come back to your statement last week, sir. Do
14 you still agree today, as you said last week, that two of the ways that a
15 civilian government controls the military is by its control of such
16 things as financing and logistics? You agree, don't you? Sir?
17 A. I apologise. Just a minute. Yes.
18 Q. Could you look, please, next at Exhibit P09063. That will be in
19 binder number 2, P09063.
20 Sir, just coming to this topic, and I'm trying to, in the
21 interests of time, not go through all the documents that we could,
22 because we'd never have time, unfortunately, to do that, but I did have a
23 couple of questions to you about this document, if you have P09063.
24 Looking over your shoulder, sir, I don't think you have it yet. P09063
25 in binder number 2. Sorry for the confusion. It's a copy of Mr. Prlic's
1 business card which another witness had provided to us in this case that
2 she had obtained back during the time of 1992-1993. Just a couple of
3 questions about that card.
4 Of course, Mr. Prlic is described -- or gives the title of
5 president of the HVO HZ-HB. There's two telephone numbers listed. Did
6 you ever use those two telephone numbers to call Mr. Prlic or communicate
7 with Mr. Prlic during 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And there's also a fax number there, did you ever -- do you
10 recall whether you or your staff, if you will, ever communicated with
11 Mr. Prlic's office during 1993 by fax?
12 A. I don't think so.
13 Q. And there's also a listed mobile telephone number, 099-470-508.
14 With that in mind, can I ask you, first of all, did you have a mobile
15 phone back at the time 1992-1993?
16 A. At some point in time in 1993, yes.
17 Q. And were you able to use that to communicate with people in
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, could we be a little more specific?
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a pretty large place, and it's divided at this
21 time, so are we talking about areas in the Republika Srpska, Sarajevo
22 MR. SCOTT: Everywhere. My question was intentionally broad.
23 Q. Could you call -- you can correct me or limit your answer however
24 you wish. Could you communicate with people throughout Bosnia
1 A. We could use mobile phones only to phone outside of Mostar,
2 because in Mostar there was no signal for mobile phones to use.
3 Q. And what was the coverage area outside of Mostar, sir?
4 A. Well, mostly it included the territory of Herzegovina, and from
6 Q. And to your knowledge, do you recall using this number for
7 Mr. Prlic from time -- the mobile number 099-470-508, did you have
8 occasion to call Mr. Prlic on that mobile number from time to time?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. Could you please go to Exhibit P00824, which will be in the first
11 binder. P00824.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just add a little question to the previous
14 MR. SCOTT: Of course.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Tomic, could you also call Sarajevo with a
16 mobile phone?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Mr. Scott, that was all.
19 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. Thank you, Judge Trechsel.
20 Sir --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.
22 Mr. Praljak.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour
24 Judge Antonetti, I believe there is something that isn't quite precise
25 here. The witness said: "We could only call outside of Mostar." I
1 believe one should clarify whether they could phone from Mostar or
2 whether they had to go outside of Mostar to do that, because outside of
3 Mostar means --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the answer was very
5 clear. The witness told us that he could not call Sarajevo. However,
6 Witness, with your cellphone, could you call abroad? I guess you could,
7 and you could call from Mostar and surrounding; is that what you said?
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry, I had understood Mr. Praljak's question
9 in a different way. Mr. Praljak wanted to know whether it was possible
10 to call from Mostar, and I think the witness has clearly said in Mostar
11 you couldn't use it, you had to go outside. That's -- it's clear, okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. In Mostar, well,
13 the technology was quite new at the time. You could capture the signal
14 in Herzegovina
15 order to phone. In Bosnia
16 hadn't been set up yet. The communications network had been destroyed
17 and it was not possible to use this new technology to phone Sarajevo
18 because at a given point in time the signal has to go down to the ground
19 and then use regular telephone lines, which at the time had been
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's clear, then, rather than
22 calling Mr. Prlic, that would have forced you to leave Mostar, and he
23 would have had to be out of Mostar, too. It was easier just to go see
24 him, visit him, or use the regular phone line?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in Mostar, after part of the
1 capacity had been repaired, after some of the equipment had been
2 repaired, it was possible to phone from office to office. But in order
3 to use mobile phones, we had to, for example, both be outside of Mostar
4 so that we could communicate with each other, because there was no signal
5 for those mobile phones in Mostar.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's clear. Thank you.
7 It's time for the break also, Mr. Scott. Twenty minutes.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Mr. Tomic, before the break we were looking -- or we were just
13 beginning to look at, I believe, P00824, and just a couple of points.
14 And I'll tell you now -- I'll forecast what I'm going to ask you, and
15 that is: If this is just -- this and another document or two that we're
16 going to look at gives us an idea of the type of business that came
17 before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular basis. For example, in this set of
18 minutes from the 27th of November, 1992, and if I can ask you to turn to
19 item number 9, and the English version is the top of the third page and I
20 hope it's the same translation, but it's item number 9 in any event, for
21 example, it says:
22 "Draft decision on the refugees and expelled and displaced
23 persons office is submitted by the HVO HZ-HB Secretariat. The decision
24 was adopted unanimously."
25 Item 10:
1 "The head of the HVO HZ-HB finance department, N. Tomic,
2 nominates Drago Bagaric, a qualified economist from Begonja, for director
3 of the HVO HZ-HB customs administration, and Miljenko Karacici is
4 appointed the acting director of the HZ-HB Official Gazette. The stated
5 proposals were unanimously adopted."
6 Now, is that -- are those fair examples of the kind of business
7 that came before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular basis; approval of decisions
8 or programmes, personnel appointments, that sort of thing?
9 A. Item 9 states that the HVO took a decision on establishing an
10 office for refugees. It was under the Presidency of the HVO HZ-HB, which
11 didn't really hold a session. Item 10 has to do with appointing
12 lower-ranking individuals in the department, as suggested by the head of
13 the department. Appointments were to be made by the HVO HZ-HB at its
14 session, and that was done. In the case of the customs administration
15 and in the case of the Gazette.
16 Q. If you go toward the end of the document, and in the English
17 version it will be the top of page 5, you can see the end of the
18 document, sir, and go up approximately three paragraphs, just one other
19 example I'd like to show you to -- to show to you because it relates to
20 the finance department. It says:
21 "At the proposal of the head of the HVO HZ-HB finance department,
22 N. Tomic, a unanimous decision was adopted on the manner of allotment of
23 financial aid to the municipal HVOs in Central Bosnia."
24 Again my question to you: Is that representative of the sort of
25 the financial business that would come before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular
2 A. Up until the time that a budget was adopted for the HZ-HB, funds
3 were allocated on the basis of decisions that were prepared by
4 departments, at the request of individual departments or users, and it
5 was done in accordance with funds available. Decisions on the matter
6 would then be taken by the HVO HZ-HB. If there was a budget, an
7 organised budget, it would have been done automatically as the budget was
8 adopted. But since such document was not in existence, individual
9 decisions had to be taken.
10 Q. Could you go, please, to 1D -- it's in the fourth smaller binder
11 in the Defence exhibits, 1D 01669. 1D 01669. And while you're looking
12 for that, sir, this is a set of minutes from the HVO HZ-HB meeting on the
13 5th of July, 1993, as always listing those in attendance, including, for
14 example, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Zubak, Mr. Stojic, Mr. Tomic, Mr. Buntic,
15 Mr. Perkovic, Mr. Palameta, et cetera, and again some particular items I
16 just want you to take a quick look at.
17 Item number 6 on the bottom of page 2 of the English version, but
18 in any event, sir, if you can find item number 6:
19 "The draft decree to establish a commission for the exchange of
20 prisoners and other persons was submitted by the Secretariat. Following
21 a decision involving the participation of Mr. Maric, Mr. Saric and
22 B. Pusic, the following was concluded:"
23 And then we see action taken following that, including the
24 appointment of Berislav Pusic as head of the service. So you would agree
25 with me, sir, this is another example of the HVO HZ-HB carrying out its
1 personnel powers in the appointment of Mr. Pusic to the head of this
2 body; correct?
3 A. This is a decision that was taken because the Presidency of the
4 HZ-HB wasn't functioning. The initial commission was appointed by
5 Mr. Boban before, so this decision was taken in order to establish its
6 structure because it was only formed by individual members, and in this
7 decision its authority was specified and Mr. Pusic was appointed as the
8 head of that body.
9 Q. As another example, going further down to item number 7, item 1,
10 item 7, number 1, it says:
11 "Mr. Z. Buntic shall once again request from Mr. A. Markotic a
12 report on the demographic situation in the HZ-HB."
13 Could you explain to the Judges, please, what the interest of the
14 HVO HZ-HB was in the demographics in Herceg-Bosna?
15 A. As far as I can remember, I think it had to do with the
16 implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan.
17 Q. And do you recall, in fact, receiving a report after -- sometime
18 the 5th of July from Mr. Markotic on the demographic situation in
20 A. I can't remember. I know that he worked on maps and that he was
21 a professor of demographics.
22 Q. Well, my -- very well, but my question to you -- so, sorry, you
23 don't remember one way or the other?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Excuse me. Looking at item number 8, it says:
1 "Mr. B. Stojic told the session about the military and security
2 situation in the territory of the HZ-HB. Following the Muslims' latest
3 attacks, the response to the mobilisation was rather good."
4 And was that, again, generally the way things happened at these
5 HVO meetings, that among other department heads, Mr. Stojic would give a
6 report on the military and security situation?
7 A. From time to time, we were informed of the problems the defence
8 department had, and also of the situation in the field that we had to be
9 aware of because of the activities of the individual departments, because
10 the activities in the field were directly related to re-establishing
11 communications, re-establishing the public auditing service. These were
12 things that other departments had to be aware of when carrying out their
14 Q. If we could go next to item number 12, the last item. It says:
15 "All bodies and services of the HVO HZ-HB shall submit reports on
16 their work, with a short assessment of the current situation in their
17 sphere of activity for the period between 1 January 1993 and 30 June
18 1993; deadline, 12th July 1993
19 And is that again representative of the type of process that was
20 followed by which various reports would be filed from time to time with
21 the HVO HZ-HB?
22 A. This was a biennial report. There was also an annual report when
23 all the departments submitted reports on what had been done and also
24 provided assessments with regards to the activities in their domain, with
25 regard to whether certain tasks had been accomplished or not, and also
1 with regard the future tasks that had to be dealt with.
2 Q. And there's some other points in that document that I would like
3 to cover if we had more time, but I think that's all the time we can
4 spend on that particular item.
5 If I could ask you, please, to go next to P01652, which will be
6 in the first binder. P01652.
7 Again, sir, this is a set of minutes from the HVO meeting on the
8 11th of March, 1993. It's indicated that you and others were present,
9 Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic and others. I'm going to ask you to go to -- it's
10 on the -- the pages have been organised rather strangely on this in some
11 ways on the English translation, anyways. But if you can find point 13,
12 I think it will assist us. There are a number of points in the document,
13 point 1, point 2, and if you get toward the end of the document, you'll
14 see point 15. If you go up to point 13, I'm not really interested in
15 point 13 but what's right above it.
16 Right above point 13, sir, it says:
17 "At the proposal of the Office for Refugees, Expelled and
18 Displaced Persons of the HVO HZ-HB, Nevenko Herceg is appointed office
19 secretary. The proposal on the appointment of the HVO of Kresevo
20 municipality is adopted. The proposal is enclosed."
21 Now, again these were both personnel decisions, if you will,
22 being approved by the HVO HZ-HB; correct?
23 A. These are decisions, and they were reached as a result of the
24 non-functioning of the Presidency of the HZ-HB which pertain to their
25 authorities within the scope of the regulations that prevailed at the
2 Q. Now, the second of the two items in that one paragraph is the
3 proposal on the appointment of the HVO, Kresevo municipality. Does this
4 confirm, sir, that it was within the power of the HVO HZ-HB to, in fact,
5 appoint an entire municipal staff, in this case for Kresevo?
6 A. As far as I can remember, the situation was as I have already
7 mentioned. Because of the non-functioning of the Presidency of the
8 HZ-HB, this was taken over by the HVO HZ-HB, and the appointment of
9 Kresevo municipality is hereby confirmed. I don't remember any other
10 such decisions, because in practical terms presidents of the municipal
11 HVO were members of the Presidency of the HZ-HB, i.e., they were our
12 heads. Hence, the authority lie with the Presidency of the HZ-HB.
13 However, since they could not be convened during this period, for
14 organisational reasons, to organise the activities and implement
15 regulations of the HZ-HB, this was a necessity, it had to be done.
16 Q. Would you next go, please, to -- excuse me -- back to the Defence
17 binder, 1D 01184. And this is, again, a set of minutes of the HVO
18 meeting on the 9th of April, 1993, and again although there are a number
19 of items covered in the document, I'd like to direct your attention to
20 item number 9 on page 4 of the English translation, item 9.
21 In item number 9, sir, there is discussion of a proposal to
22 abrogate the decision on the mobilisation of material and technical
23 equipment in the Mostar municipality. And if we skip the intervening
24 paragraph, which although everyone will have it, the item 9 goes on to
1 "Based on the above, a decision on the abrogation of the
2 decision --" the referenced decision in Mostar municipality was
3 unanimously adopted; correct?
4 A. This is about the non-competence of a municipality to carry out
5 mobilisation according to the HZ-HB, and the HZ-HB department reacted to
6 that, and the HVO HZ-HB confirmed the standpoint of the defence
7 department and confirmed that it was contrary to the regulations of the
9 Q. Going back to -- or going to something, sir, which you've in fact
10 mentioned several times in the last few minutes, and you were asked a
11 number of questions during direct examination about the relationship
12 between the HVO HZ-HB and the municipalities, the municipal HVOs, and if
13 I understood your testimony correctly, sir, you indicated that one of the
14 problems of controlling the HVO municipalities is because the HVO
15 municipal presidents were members of the Presidency. But, sir, isn't it
16 correct, as you've just said three or four times in the last 15 minutes,
17 the HZ-HB Presidency wasn't functioning during this time; correct? There
18 was no HZ-HB body to take up, if you will, the cause of these alleged
19 recalcitrant HVOs because the Presidency wasn't meeting, was it? I think
20 your word for the last few minutes has been because the HZ-HB Presidency
21 was not functioning. Correct?
22 A. The Presidency of the HZ-HB convened very seldom, and it did not
23 function by way of calling meetings. Municipal presidents had contact
24 with the president of the HZ-HB. The HVO of the HZ-HB, i.e., the
25 municipal HVOs, did not publish Official Gazettes, so one could not
1 follow what the municipalities were doing at the time, what regulations
2 they were passing.
3 Q. Sir, I think the evidence in this case establishes at this point
4 and I would put to you that the evidence shows that between the end of
5 August 1992
6 Presidency, in fact, met twice, once on the 17th of October, 1992
7 then, in fact, at the end of August or late August 1993, when the
8 Croatian Republic
9 interim time is it correct, sir, and do you agree with other witnesses,
10 including such people as Mr. Buntic, that during that interim time when
11 the Presidency was not meeting, the HVO HZ-HB was both executive and
12 legislature and their laws, decrees and decisions had the force of law;
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in terms any control of the HZ-HB Presidency when they did
16 meet, which was rarely, please tell the Judges any time -- any instance
17 in which the HZ-HB Presidency took any action to disapprove, veto or undo
18 any action or decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB.
19 A. Within the sphere of finance, there was a problem with the decree
20 that regulated the payment of war tax on the part of workers working
21 abroad. The municipal presidents, in practical terms, stopped the
22 implementation of the decree that was passed by the HVO HZ-HB because
23 they did not want that to be part of the budget of the HZ-HB, as the
24 decree regulated.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues]... question.
1 MR. SCOTT: No, it was not.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: It was an open-ended question. Read the question,
4 MR. SCOTT: Whoa, hold on.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not holding on. This is unfair. He asked,
6 "Please explain to the Judges." He's explaining, he shouldn't be
7 interrupted. I object to this tactic.
8 MR. SCOTT: I don't know why Mr. Karnavas is so alarmed. The
9 question is on the page and it says:
10 "In terms of any control of the HZ-HB Presidency, when they did
11 meet, which was rarely, please tell the Judges any time -- any instance
12 in which the HZ-HB Presidency took any action to disapprove, veto or undo
13 any action or decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB."
14 Q. My question had nothing to do with the dislike of some
15 municipalities of what was happening. My question was: Name me, sir,
16 and I repeat it again -- give me an instance when the HZ-HB Presidency,
17 when in session, vetoed, disapproved, undid anything, anything that the
18 HVO HZ-HB had done.
19 A. The Presidency of the HZ-HB ratified the decisions passed by the
20 HVO HZ-HB. However, I gave you an example, and this was the decree that
21 the HVO HZ-HB passed, and that decree was not implemented in practice
22 because members of the Presidency of the HZ-HB did not want to implement
23 this decree, and they were at the same time heads of the municipalities,
24 and they had legal power not to implement this decree, especially those
25 municipalities that had a lot of workers working abroad, and it was not
1 their goal for these revenues to be channeled towards the budget of the
2 HVO HZ-HB. It was rather their intention and wish for that money to
3 remain at the municipality level.
4 Q. Sir, the answer to my question is: It never happened, it never
5 happened, there was never a single occasion when the HZ-HB Presidency
6 undid or vetoed anything that the HVO HZ-HB had done; correct? It never
8 A. Not through official meetings. However, I gave you an example
9 according to which a decree passed by the HVO HZ-HB that was not adopted
10 or, rather, that it was not implemented in practice on the ground.
11 Q. Sir, you testified last Tuesday:
12 "All decisions taken by the HVO HZ-HB have been implemented."
13 Now, are you changing your testimony?
14 A. No. Decisions that were adopted by the HVO HZ-HB were, indeed,
15 implemented. Throughout all that time, we struggled for the decisions to
16 be implemented, i.e., to be operational. I mentioned just one decision
17 which was not implemented at all as a result of the work of the
18 municipalities and their heads. As a result of all that, a compromise
19 was reached and regulations were changed. Finally, it was part of the
20 revenues of the municipalities rather than of the HZ-HB. Whatever
21 regulations we passed, we made sure, as much as possible, for them to be
22 implemented, and within that context I said that all the regulations and
23 decisions that we reached were, indeed, implemented.
24 Q. Sir, you were asked a number of questions last week about
25 indicating that Mr. Boban, one of the hats that he wore, he was the
1 president of the HZ-HB Presidency. Mr. Boban was no shrinking violet,
2 was he? I'm not sure that will translate, but he was not an unforceable
3 person in expressing his views; correct? He was not -- strike all of
4 that. Sorry, my poor question.
5 Sir, Mr. Boban was an active and forceful personality, wasn't he,
6 or at least could be?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And as president of the HZ-HB, I take it any of these municipal
9 HVO presidents could have taken their grievances to Mr. Boban at any
10 time, or called him on the telephone, for that matter, in Herzegovina.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And, again, can you tell the Judges one occasion when Mate Boban
14 intervened with the HVO HZ-HB to undo, veto, disapprove any action taken
15 by the HVO HZ-HB?
16 A. I have to go back to the decree that I've just mentioned. After
17 their objections to Mr. Boban and after their complaints, Mr. Boban
18 called for the regulation to be changed and that the war tax become
19 revenue of the municipalities that would be channeled towards the
20 defence, in agreement with the defence department. That's how the decree
21 was worded, and it was only then that it actually started being
22 implemented in the territory of the HZ-HB.
23 Q. All right. I take that on board, sir, but let me come back to my
24 question. Was there ever a time Mr. Boban communicated with the HVO
25 HZ-HB, to your knowledge, called -- Mr. Prlic called you, came to a
1 meeting, sent a representative to the meeting, and say, "At the last HVO
2 HZ-HB meeting, you took this action. I don't like it. The municipal
3 HVOs don't like it. I'm hereby saying you can't do it"? Did anything
4 like that ever happen?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. The example of the decree that I've just mentioned is an example
8 of that.
9 Q. Is that the only example you can think of?
10 A. This is an example pertaining to my sphere of work. That's why I
11 remember it. But I know that he communicated individually with
12 department heads and that he suggested certain solutions that they should
14 Q. Well, I think eventually the Judges will probably have just about
15 every HVO minute in the record for them to review, and the lawyers -- and
16 all the lawyers can argue about that at some point, I suppose.
17 If you remember, this afternoon I took you to Exhibit P00303, and
18 in the interests of time I'm going to suggest we probably don't have to
19 look at it. But if you remember, that was the clause that we stopped and
20 looked at and said the Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss
21 the other members of the HVO HZ-HB. The Presidency of the HZ-HB had that
22 power, and my question to you again, sir: Can you tell the Judges one
23 instance where the HZ-HB Presidency exercised any power to remove a
24 member of the HVO HZ-HB?
25 A. I can't remember.
1 Q. You can't -- again, sir, you can't remember one way or the other
2 or you don't recall any occasion when that happened?
3 A. I can't recall any such example.
4 Q. Sir, in terms of your dealings with the HVO municipal
5 governments, just to summarise this point, I put it to you, sir, if you
6 had such a severe problem or such a problem as you've indicated to the
7 Judges last week with any particular HVO municipal government, assuming
8 for the moment that's correct, did you take any action -- did the HVO
9 HZ-HB take any action available, send your laws, send your armies, send
10 the police, and remove any of those governments or members of those
11 governments who were disobedient to your administration?
12 A. Last week, I spoke about letters that I sent to the president of
13 the HZ-HB, to the municipal heads. I also had individual conversations
14 with the municipal presidents, and I tried to implement the HZ-HB
15 regulations. We have to bear in mind that the municipalities had built
16 their own powers or authorities in their respective territories even
17 before the establishment of the HVO HZ-HB, and they had real power on the
18 ground. At the same time, the HVO HZ-HB did not have any instruments
19 available to it to force them to do anything.
20 Q. Sir, the HVO HZ-HB pursued policies and sent armies and police
21 into the field to carry out that policy, including expulsions, including
22 fights, taking over villages. You certainly did have power, sir. And
23 are you telling the Judges that you did not have the ability to send the
24 police, to send law enforcement, to send the military, if necessary, to
25 gain control of some municipal official who you say would not get in
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the form of
3 question. Now, unless he can establish the facts in this question, there
4 are facts beyond -- you know, that are not in evidence. Where is it that
5 the HVO HZ-HB sent armies into the field? Where does he get this? I
6 mean, look at the question. It's loaded with facts. How does one answer
7 "yes" or "no." I mean, let's be fair. I'm trying to be measured here,
8 but let's be fair to the witness.
9 MR. SCOTT:
10 Q. Sir, the Judges, over the past two and a half years -- excuse me.
11 I'm sorry, Mr. President.
12 Sir, the Judges have heard evidence over the past two and a half
13 years, and they'll of course ultimately decide. I'm not saying it's been
14 established once and for all, but they've certainly heard an abundance of
15 evidence indicating Muslim administrations in municipalities being
16 removed and war presidencies being removed or displaced in a number of
17 locations, Varos comes to mind at the moment, and I do put it to you,
18 sir, that was being done by people who ultimately the HVO HZ-HB
19 controlled. Bruno Stojic and the Department of Defence reported to the
20 HVO HZ-HB. Now, if you could send the military and police to displace
21 Muslim administrations and take out Muslim war presidencies, why couldn't
22 you get one recalcitrant HVO municipal official in line?
23 A. I don't know -- I'm not sure that I understood your question
24 correctly. However, our task was to organise the civilian life in the
25 territory of the HZ-HB and to build a system for the survival during that
1 period. Those were the priorities of both my department and the HZ-HB.
2 In other words, we were mostly concerned with the implementation of our
3 own rules, the rules and regulations that we, ourselves, had passed.
4 Q. Sir, if you could go next to Exhibit in the Defence binder,
5 please, 1D 02357. This is an article of an interview with Mr. Prlic on
6 the 25th of January, 1992. There's a translation error on the date. I'm
7 sure the original can be seen to be "1992."
8 Sir, on page 2 of the English version, but in the -- it would
9 be -- there's a question that's put to Mr. Prlic that said:
10 "Is a BH currency the solution?"
11 And obviously I'm changing topics now to a part of your testimony
12 dealing with currency, the BH dinar, the Croatian dinar, the Deutsche
13 mark. On this particular occasion, under that question: "Is a BH
14 currency a solution," at the end of his answer Mr. Prlic says:
15 "The problem is, therefore, how in this situation to introduce a
16 new currency which the largest part of the republic would not recognise."
17 "Question: What parts are you referring to?
18 "Answer: "In the SAO, the Serbian autonomous areas or Krajinas,
19 they want the Serbian dinar, in Western Herzegovina the Croatian one."
20 Isn't it true, sir, that long before there was any discussion of
21 introduction of the BH dinar, which didn't take place until
22 September/October of 1992, some months later, it was already clear the
23 Serbs wanted the Yugoslav dinar and many of the Croats, at least in
24 Western Herzegovina, they wanted the Croatian currency; correct? That's
25 what Mr. Prlic says, and I guess I'll put it to you. Do you agree or
1 disagree with Mr. Prlic?
2 A. The fundamental issue of money is also the issue of trust or
3 confidence in the currency and in the institution that stands behind that
4 currency, which is the Central bank. The confidence in the Central bank
5 stems from the confidence in the state. Under such circumstances, it
6 was, at that time if 1992, there were no preconditions to build
7 confidence in a currency that would be introduced which would also prove
8 to be true after its introduction.
9 Q. I apologise, I apologise for interrupting. My question is much
10 simpler, and that is: Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Prlic that it
11 was already clear that the largest part of the republic would not
12 recognise a new currency; the Serbs wanted the Serbian dinar, and in
13 Western Herzegovina the Croats wanted the Croatian dinar? Now, that was
14 what Mr. Prlic said. Do you agree or disagree?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You disagree?
17 A. Yes, I disagree.
18 Q. And in this article, there is a reference -- in fact, the article
19 is titled: "Looting On Both Sides." Is it true that around this time in
20 the latter part of 1991, Croatia
21 dinars to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. Well, at that period of time a lot of Jugo dinars appeared in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some came from Yugoslavia, some from Croatia
24 Q. Above the part that I read to you a moment ago, above the
25 question: "Is a BH currency the solution," Mr. Prlic says:
1 "If it is true that large amounts of money have been transferred
2 from Croatia
4 So I come back to my question, sir. Is it correct that Croatia
5 at that time was trucking large amounts of Yugoslav dinars into Bosnia
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was that some deliberate attempt to sabotage the BH economy,
8 the Bosnian economy, or why send all this currency, which Croatia
9 apparently doesn't want, into Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. This money had no value in the Republic of Croatia
11 earmarked for municipalities in Herzegovina
12 the money for German marks or buy goods with the money. By exchanging
13 those funds, the municipalities obtained revenue, and you can see that
14 this revenue was subsequently used for defence.
15 Q. Before we move on from this document, sir, if I can go up to the
16 first question that is put to Mr. Prlic in this article, and it says:
17 "Mr. Prlic, why are you avoiding questions about politics when
18 today everything boils down to politics?"
19 "Answer: Precisely because everything boils down to politics, or
20 better to put it, to politicking, in other words --i.e., in other words,
21 to the ethnic field."
22 Do you agree, sir, that by 25 January 1992, the predominant
23 factor in what was happening in the former Yugoslavia was politics and
24 ethnic politics at that? And once again my question really is: Do you
25 agree with Mr. Prlic's assessment?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, sir, didn't that really ultimately have more to do with
3 Herceg-Bosna's selection of the Croatian dinar than any sort of monetary
4 or financial reasons? Herceg-Bosna chose the Croatian dinar because
5 ethnic -- primarily for ethnic reasons and its affiliation or desired
6 affiliation with the Republic of Croatia
7 A. That's not correct, no. The municipalities introduced the
8 Croatian dinar on an individual basis. It depended on the arrival of
9 goods and on the possibility of obtaining new goods. I've already
10 mentioned in my testimony that the municipality of Jablanica
11 a decision, as well as other municipalities, and the HVO HZ-HB issued a
12 decree regulating that salaries should be paid in Croatian dinars. They
13 didn't introduce the Croatian dinar because the Croatian dinar was
14 already being used, as was the case for the German mark.
15 Q. Let's go to another article by Mr. Prlic about 15 months later,
16 which is 1D 02222 in the Defence binder, the binder you're just been in,
17 so it shouldn't be too difficult. 1D 02222, and this is an article by
18 Mr. Prlic in Slobodna Dalmatija on the 29th of April, 1993, in which he
19 writes about the introduction of the BH dinar. In one of the parts of
20 his -- in fact, the first part of the bold language, under the bold
21 language it says that one of the problems was a huge amount, as much as a
22 third -- strike that -- that a huge amount of the BH dinars, as they were
23 introduced, wound up, if you will, in the wrong hands. Did that happen
24 in Herceg-Bosna as well or was somehow Herceg-Bosna immune from that
1 A. In the course of my testimony, I explained how we directed
2 Bosnian and Herzegovinian dinars into municipalities in Central Bosnia,
3 because you could obtain goods and equipment and pay with this currency,
4 because in that area the BH dinar was accepted, and you know the main
5 bills of all companies and of legal entities were in BH dinars. So with
6 reference to BH dinars, there never was embezzlement of any kind.
7 Q. In the -- under the bold heading, not counting that one, but in
8 the paragraphs that follow, and I'm trying to just give you a point of
9 reference, in the fourth paragraph under there -- under that, excuse me,
10 and for the English readers, bottom of page 1 in the translation,
11 Mr. Prlic says:
12 "There was no obstruction to the introduction of this currency in
13 the territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna," et cetera, "but
14 there was obstruction to the realistic assessment of the entire
16 Now, in contrast to that, sir, let me just put it to you, what
17 Mr. Prlic says, there was no obstruction, hadn't Herceg-Bosna by that
18 time made it very clear that it was seeking to establish a Croatian
19 space? I think, in fact, the term that was maybe used by others was a
20 single economic space. But by this time, Herceg-Bosna and its leadership
21 had made it very clear, had it not, it was attempting to carve out a
22 Croatian space in Bosnia and Herzegovina, at least for a time; correct?
23 And wasn't it fully part of that to adopt and use the Croatian currency
24 as opposed to some other currency?
25 A. Well, I have to say that that's wrong, because Herceg-Bosna, the
1 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, also included areas inhabited by
2 Croats, areas in which the BH dinar was also a currency. Sarajevo and
3 other areas. This was an attempt to establish a system that would
4 protect the Croats in those areas and create the economic preconditions
5 to assist certain parts, so that's why the Croatian dinar wasn't what was
6 used to make such assessments. The Croatian dinar arrived in a natural
7 way with goods and with people who received aid in Croatian dinars when
8 they were refugees. Medhamed [phoen], the Muslim charity, gave people
9 money that they received from foreign donators in German marks, but in
11 Croatian dinars were used there. So with those Croatian dinars, they
12 would come and buy goods, and that's why the Croatian dinar disappeared
13 from the market later on, because there was no -- there were no more
15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... part of this article, sorry,
16 but we have to move on.
17 On the next-to-last paragraph of Mr. Prlic's article, he seems to
18 indicate that there were three other avenues that could have been
19 pursued -- could have been prevented. He says:
20 "The discrediting of the state could have been prevented in
21 several ways; by payments in convertible currency," first, so it stopped
23 Can you tell the Judges what is -- tell me and tell everyone,
24 what's a convertible currency?
25 A. Well, the German mark is what one has in mind, or the American US
1 dollar. These are currencies that were listed by banks as currencies
2 that could be exchanged.
3 Q. Mr. Prlic goes on to say the second thing that could have been
4 done is the issue of coupons in certain areas. But as I understood your
5 testimony last week, sir, you were critical of coupons, and yet here
6 Mr. Prlic seems to be recommending that as one course of action, at least
7 in some areas. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Prlic?
10 A. Well, one's talking about issuing coupons in certain areas where
11 it was possible to control how this money was used and where it was
12 possible to control its value. I said that the BH dinar, the Bosnian and
13 Herzegovinian dinar, which was supposed to be issued throughout the
14 state, was converted into coupons that had various values in Tuzla
15 Zenica and Sarajevo
16 to carry out looting. One can shift money from one area to another. I
17 understand the suggestion coupons could be used in a certain area if
18 there was supervision, protection. In such areas, such coupons could
19 have a stable value. One could trust the way in which such coupons were
20 used and people wouldn't fear their money disappearing.
21 Q. And the third option which Mr. Prlic lists here is officially
22 introducing the Croatian dinar, and we'll continue on that when -- of
23 course as we go.
24 A. Here a possibility is mentioned. One could pay in cash, and that
25 was the case in a large swathe of the free territory.
1 Q. Before we leave this document, in the last paragraph it makes
2 reference to an agreement on payment transactions between these states,
3 referring to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of
5 payment transactions existed at that time between Bosnia and Croatia
6 A. At the time, there were agreements between Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 and Croatia
8 payment transactions and using non-resident accounts.
9 Q. Let's go next to 1D 01350. 1D 01350. And just to confirm, do
10 you agree that this is the confirmation of the receipt by Herceg-Bosna
11 authorities of approximately three billion BH dinars in connection with
12 the initial distribution or introduction of that currency?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I just had one additional question about that document. It
15 says, item 14 the costs of delivery, unloading, placing in the vaults,
16 loading, the transfer of workers and record-keeping expenses amounts to
17 46 million BH dinars.
18 So who got that money, who got 46 million dinars?
19 A. People who came from Central Bosnia received this money.
20 Q. No, no, sir. My question is specifically the 46 million in
21 costs. The item 14 talks about costs, which is taken out of the gross
22 amount, and I'm just asking, if you can assist us: Who received the 46
23 million BH dinars?
24 A. Workers of the municipal HVOs from Central Bosnia received this
25 money. It was to cover their expenses, the expenses of coming there,
1 fuel, accommodation, et cetera. So it was these people who physically
2 transported the money and took it to Central Bosnia who received this
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... tied this back into further
5 in your testimony last week, when you indicated that approximately a
6 third of the currency had been -- well, I'm not sure exactly which word
7 you used at the time, but basically a third of the currency had been
8 seized or taken by Herceg-Bosna to make sure kind of they'd get their
9 share. Now, again, are we talking about essentially the same transaction
10 here, same event, as reflected in this document?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the word "seize" has been used.
12 Perhaps we could have a page reference to where in the transcript
13 Mr. Tomic said that the money was seized, meaning stolen.
14 MR. SCOTT: Well, not stolen, but I think -- well, let me ask the
15 witness this. Maybe I misunderstood.
16 Q. Sir, you testified last week that there was several trucks of
17 currency were sent to Herceg-Bosna. Apparently you're now saying these
18 were people from Central Bosnia who then bore the cost of doing so and
19 that about a third of this money then was kept -- strike the word
20 "seized," was then kept with these three trucks in Herceg-Bosna. Now, is
21 that what happened or did I misunderstand your testimony?
22 A. I think you misunderstood my testimony. A representative of the
23 government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is responsible for
24 transporting money from the printers to Celije in Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 and this person decided that this lorry should remain in the territory of
1 the HZ-HB, whereas the other two lorries continued on their way to
2 Central Bosnia
3 competent for, and we used it in the most efficient way possible at the
4 time, in terms of maintaining the value of the money received. So
5 nothing was actually seized.
6 Q. I strike the word "seized." I think -- well, we can go back on
7 the record if we need to last week. You received one of the trucks, one
8 of the lorries, and the money as indicated on 1D 01350 was received.
9 Now, I notice this introduction, according to this report, was on the
10 15th of October, 1992. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you can work with me before finish the evening. If you can
13 look next, please, in the first binder to Exhibit P00447. The first
14 Prosecution binder, P00447. If you can just confirm for me, sir, is this
15 a decree issued on the 22nd of September, 1992, by the HVO HZ-HB titled:
16 "On the Regulation of Payment Transaction in Croatian Dinars on the
17 Territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna"?
18 A. Yes, that is the decree that regulates payment transactions in
19 Croatian dinars.
20 Q. As the head of the finance department of the HVO at that time, I
21 take it you would have been involved, probably, in drafting or otherwise
22 preparing this decree. Would that be fair to say?
23 A. Correct.
24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to suggest that might be a
25 time to stop, before we go to the next document.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague Judge Prandler is
2 telling me that on line 25, page 87, there is mention of territories. Is
3 that the adequate term?
4 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, are you directing that question
5 to me or to the witness?
6 THE INTERPRETER: [French spoken].
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. If you can assist us, Mr. Tomic, please.
9 A. Can you just remind me which part you're referring to?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, in this
11 decree there is mention of territories of the Croat Community of
12 Herceg-Bosna. What did this mean, exactly?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very often at the beginning of the
14 HVO HZ-HB, the term "area" or "territory" would be used. The term
15 "territory" was used when copying the provisions that regulated
16 situations in the territory of Yugoslavia
17 of the HZ-HB, the area covered in the decision on establishing the HZ-HB.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 It is 7.00 p.m.
20 sitting tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.
21 2.14, so I'll see you tomorrow for tomorrow's hearing.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of
24 November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.