Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34369

 1                           Tuesday, 11 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, will you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

 8     versus Jadranko Prlic et al., Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  On

10     this Tuesday the 11th of November, 2008, I bid good morning to all those

11     present, the accused, the ladies and gentlemen of the Prosecution and

12     Defence counsel, as well as all those assisting us today.

13             We are going to continue with the examination-in-chief, and I'm

14     going to ask the usher to be kind enough to bring in the witness.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  Before the witness comes in, Your Honour, I do

16     wish to go on record with respect to one matter, and if we could do it in

17     closed session or private session.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11 Pages 34370-34373 redacted. Private session.















Page 34374

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in public session.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO BATINIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  Please be

13     seated.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will give the floor to

16     Mr. Karnavas to complete his examination-in-chief.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you, Your

18     Honours.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Batinic.

21        A.   Good morning, everyone.

22        Q.   I'm going to ask you to speak slowly again just as a

23     precautionary measure, and again, when referring to dates to give us --

24     or to periods to give us the dates, months and year, whenever possible.

25             We'll pick up where we left off yesterday.  If I can turn your

Page 34375

 1     attention now to document 1D 01692.  That should be towards the end of

 2     your binder.  1D 01692.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Perhaps we can get the assistance of the usher to

 4     find the document for the gentleman.

 5        Q.   1D 01692.  If you look at the yellow tabs on the side, you'll

 6     find them.  They're quite -- 1D 01692.  1D 01692.  Do you have it, sir?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you to move very quickly because I have

 9     limited amount of time and we just spent five minutes finding one

10     document.

11             If you look at this document, we see it's dated 22 June 1992.  We

12     see it's a decision.  Yesterday, you told us about the Crisis Staff

13     becoming at some point -- changing its name to Presidency.  Is this the

14     decision that does that?

15        A.   The Crisis Staff was not renamed the Presidency, but the Council

16     for National Defence, which had always existed under wartime conditions,

17     became the Presidency of the municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

18        Q.   All right.  And the Council for National Defence, who were the

19     members of that, if you could just briefly tell us.

20        A.   The National Defence Council of Gornji Vakuf consisted of the

21     president of the assembly of the municipality ex officio; the president

22     of the Executive Council ex officio; the secretary for national defence

23     of the municipality also by virtue of his office; the commander of the

24     Territorial Defence Staff by virtue of his office; the commander of the

25     public security station, also ex officio; and two Croats and two Muslims

Page 34376

 1     additionally at the proposal of political parties.

 2        Q.   What about the presidents of the political parties, HDZ and SDA?

 3     Were they members?

 4        A.   They could be members, but not necessarily.  In this case, both

 5     the president of the HDZ for Gornji Vakuf municipality and the president

 6     of the SDA of the municipality were members of the National Defence

 7     Council.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, you did introduce one particular position that

 9     may need qualification, and that was the secretary for national defence.

10     Could you please very briefly explain what -- what that position

11     entailed?

12        A.   The secretary for national defence of the municipality of Gornji

13     Vakuf was in charge of keeping records of military conscripts in the

14     municipality.  He was responsible for their mobilisation, and in

15     peacetime he would send them to serve in the Yugoslav People's Army.

16        Q.   All right.  And we can see in this particular decision under I,

17     item 2, the commanders of the Territorial Defence and HVO defence; they

18     are part of the Presidency.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And who were -- again, if you could remind us, who were the

21     commanders at the time?

22        A.   In those days, the commander of the armed forces of the HVO was

23     Mr. Zrinko Tokic; and the commander of the armed forces of the TO,

24     Mr. Fikret Musa.  And by decision of the Presidency in view of the

25     overall situation or, rather, the wartime conditions in

Page 34377

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, they became full-fledged members of the municipal

 2     Presidency.

 3        Q.   And what about the secretary of national defence?  Do you recall

 4     who served in that position at that time?

 5        A.   The secretary for national defence was Mr. Reuf Begovic.

 6        Q.   1D 01687.  That's the next document.  Here we have an order.

 7     It's dated 24 June 1992, and this is to secure the Municipal Assembly

 8     building.  And we can see from the very first item under Roman numeral I

 9     that the Territorial Defence and the HVO commands are ordered to deploy

10     their personnel to secure the Municipal Assembly building.

11             Now, yesterday you did inform us that something had occurred in

12     town on or about the 18th, 19th of June, all the way to the 20, 21st of

13     June.  Could you please tell us, why was it -- why was this order

14     necessary?

15        A.   From the 20th of June, 1992, when the first serious incident

16     occurred in Gornji Vakuf, members of the armed forces of both peoples

17     behaved in various ways.  There was fear in the municipal administration

18     that individuals might break in armed into the municipal building, and

19     that is why such an order was issued for the people in the administration

20     to be able to do their job unhindered and also to prevent armed soldiers

21     roaming the streets of the town.

22        Q.   All right.  1D 01690.  Again, this is 24 June 1992.  This is a

23     decision introducing a curfew in the territory of Gornji Vakuf, and you

24     could see in Roman numeral III, for instance, that the Territorial

25     Defence and the HVO commanders and the chief of the civilian protection

Page 34378

 1     are responsible for implementing the decision.

 2             Why was it necessary to introduce this decision by the Presidency

 3     of Gornji Vakuf?

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, if I may comment on your question.

 5     You ask why was it necessary.  How do you know that it was necessary, and

 6     how could the witness know?  Would it not be more prudent to ask why was

 7     it imposed, for what purpose was it imposed?

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, we could do that.

 9        Q.   Were you a member of the Presidency at the time, sir?

10     Mr. Batinic, I'm asking a question.  Were you a member of the Presidency?

11        A.   I was.

12        Q.   And did you participate at these hearings?

13        A.   I participated at all meetings of the Presidency.

14        Q.   Why was this order issued?

15        A.   To calm the overall situation in the territory of the

16     municipality after the incident of the 20th of June, 1992; and movement

17     after 2300 hours until 5.00 a.m. of any groups could have provoked

18     problems again.

19        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01784.  This is

20     dated the same date, so obviously you would have been present when this

21     ordered was issued.  If you could please comment on the order itself,

22     which is to remove all check-points located within settlements and all

23     fortifications and heavy weapons deployed in and around the city.  And

24     again, we can see on number Roman numeral II that the TO and HVO commands

25     are to appoint mixed groups to inspect the territory of the municipality.

Page 34379

 1             So could you please comment on this particular order.

 2             I skipped one document.  I'll have to go back to it.  My

 3     apologies.

 4        A.   After the incident of the 20th of June, 1992, every village had

 5     its own check-point, and that is why such an order was necessary for

 6     these check-points to be removed so that only those at the entrance of

 7     Gornji Vakuf from the direction of Prozor, Bugojno, and Novi Travnik

 8     should remain.

 9        Q.   Do you know whether this order was actually carried out?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, if you go -- in your binder if you go back one document.  My

12     apologies.  And that is to 1D 01691.  That's the previous document.  1D

13     01691.  This is, again, on the 24th, the same day.  You're present.  This

14     is an order on an investigation into the unfortunate events which

15     occurred between 18 June 1992 and 22 June 1992.  Of course, we can read

16     it.  It's self-explanatory, but can you please tell us whether this

17     particular order was carried out.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And I know you spoke about it, to it.  You told us yesterday the

20     results, but again, just to remind us, was a single report compiled with

21     agreed-upon findings, or were there separate reports?  If you -- if you

22     recall.

23        A.   For the reasons I referred to yesterday, there was no complete

24     agreement among investigation teams of the HVO, the TO, and the offices

25     of the public security station regarding the events of the 20th of June,

Page 34380

 1     and that is why there wasn't a single document as a report about the

 2     event of the 20th of June, but the parties had different reports.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas.  I would like to come

 4     back of a --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these reports were in written

 6     form, I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to come back to that question where

 8     we have already had a little exchange about.  You asked why were these

 9     check-points removed.  If we look at the answer, the witness gives only

10     an indication that there were check-points in villages.

11             Of course, there must be check-points so that you can remove

12     them, but you have not explained, Mr. Batinic, why it was necessary to

13     order check-points in villages to be removed.  One can imagine, but maybe

14     you can give an explanation.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To enable free passage of people

16     within the territory of Gornji Vakuf municipality without them being

17     stopped and checked out at these village check-points; in other words, to

18     establish the three check-points that had already been formed at the

19     entry to the municipality.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That's what I guessed, but it's

21     better after the lecture we benefitted from from Mr. Karnavas this

22     morning that we actually hear it and have it on the record.  Thank you.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  Far be it from me to lecture to

24     anyone, but -- which is why I asked the question why was it necessary,

25     because I presumed an order wouldn't be passed unless it was necessary,

Page 34381

 1     but I'm trying to speed up the time.

 2        Q.   1D 01785.  This is another order, same day.  This is banning all

 3     movement of armed soldiers within the city.  Why was this order passed,

 4     and what was happening in the city at the time that would make this order

 5     necessary?

 6        A.   At the time, at the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     there were and lot of little chiefs or heroes who were conducting their

 8     own wars in cafes with rifles on their shoulders.  Such individuals had

 9     to be removed from the streets of the town of Gornji Vakuf.  When they

10     needed rifles or arms, they should have been at the lines facing the

11     Serbian forces towards Radusa and other areas.

12             This is why the order was issued, according to which armed

13     members of the armed forces were not to be allowed to move around town

14     freely.

15        Q.   And did that apply to -- to both sides, members of the

16     Territorial Defence and the HVO?

17        A.   Yes.  The military police implemented this order, the military

18     police of the HVO and the military police of the TO or, rather,

19     Territorial Defence.

20        Q.   All right.  And I take it when you indicated that there were some

21     sheriffs or heros, are we speaking about from one particular armed force,

22     or were they from both?

23        A.   There were various kinds of groups.  I'm not making a distinction

24     between the HVO armed forces and the armed forces of the TO.  We're

25     talking about irresponsible individuals of the armed forces from both

Page 34382

 1     sides.

 2        Q.   All right.  1D 01786.  This is an order on the removal of all

 3     flags from buildings within the city.  And again, we spoke about this

 4     yesterday.  We do see in Roman numeral I that there is an exception

 5     except for those religious buildings and barracks, so first let's talk

 6     about this exception.

 7             Did religious buildings -- were religious buildings allowed to

 8     have flags, coat of arms on them?

 9        A.   In Gornji Vakuf, in the town itself, there was a Catholic church,

10     and there were two mosques, Muslim mosques, and no one could ban anyone

11     from there being a flag on the mosque.  It's the green flag with a half

12     moon, with a crescent or, rather, the Roman flag if it was to be hoisted

13     onto the Catholic church.

14        Q.   All right.  And it says also the barracks.  What sort of flags

15     would have been flown on the barracks, and where were the barracks

16     located?

17        A.   The TO barracks -- the barracks of the armed forces of the TO and

18     the barracks of the armed forces of the HVO were next to each other.

19     There was just a fence separating them.  They were located in a factory

20     of the TO, and in another place there was the HVO.  At the entrance to

21     the barracks, it was natural for there to be a flag on the barracks of

22     the TO, a flag such as they wanted it, a flag with lilies.  And at the

23     entrance to the barracks of the HVO, the flag of the Croatian people in

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina had been put up.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, we don't see any exceptions in this order as far

Page 34383

 1     as allowing flags to be flown on religious holidays, but I believe

 2     yesterday you did tell us that both during -- Bajram and Christmas flags

 3     would be -- were put up.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   Were any orders, to your knowledge, issued by the Presidency that

 6     -- when those flags did go up that the flags should be removed?

 7        A.   Not on the church and the mosques.

 8        Q.   I'm speaking about the holiday.  When the holiday seasons came,

 9     Bajram, was there an order issued that there should -- no flags should be

10     displayed?  And likewise, when Christmas came and New Years, that no --

11     the Croat flag of the -- or the Croatian flag of the people of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina should not be flown?

13        A.   No, no such order was issued.  It wouldn't have made sense to

14     issue such an order, and the order we have just been discussing had been

15     drafted to calm down the overall situation in the area of the Gornji

16     Vakuf municipality after the incident of the 20th of June.  The purpose

17     of the order was to bring things back to normal in the area of the

18     municipality.

19        Q.   1D 01792.  This is an order to return the Gornji Vakuf

20     territorial armed forces to the territory of Radusa.  Could you please

21     explain this particular order, the reasoning behind it?

22        A.   At the time of the incident, the 20th of June, 1992, TO forces

23     had been withdrawn from the Defence line facing the Serbian forces at the

24     Radusa mountain, and they had been assembled in and around the town of

25     Gornji Vakuf.  At the defence lines facing the Serbian aggressor, there

Page 34384

 1     only remained the forces of the HVO.  As four days later from the 20th of

 2     June to the 24th of June, 1992, the TO forces didn't decide to return to

 3     the Radusa mountain on their own and to establish a joint defence line

 4     with the HVO facing the Serbian aggressor, this order forced them to act

 5     in this manner.

 6        Q.   All right.  1D 01686.  This is now 28 June, and let me ask you,

 7     were you present when this order was -- was decided upon by the

 8     Presidency?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And this is an order to return the offices of the public security

11     station and Municipal Secretariat of National Defence, and we can see

12     from Roman numeral I the HVO is ordered to open the office -- or these

13     offices, and we see that there is a commission to be there present

14     when -- when it is open, when they are open.

15             Could you please explain this order very briefly?

16        A.   The building of the SJB, the public security station, which is

17     where the Secretariat for National Defence for the defence of Gornji

18     Vakuf also had its premises, was in a part of town mainly inhabited by

19     Croats.  At the time of the incident on the 20th of June, 1992, HVO

20     forces had been deployed at the demarcation line.  The purpose was to

21     protect the Croatian population in the Croat part of town, and they used

22     the SJB building and the building of the Secretariat for National

23     Defence.  The commanders of the HVO, as they were aware that some members

24     of the HVO might enter the buildings, the premises where there were

25     confidential documents - in the case of the SJB there were driving

Page 34385

 1     licenses, passports, et cetera - they, therefore, locked those premises

 2     so that a mess wouldn't be made, so that these very important documents

 3     wouldn't be tampered with and scattered all around.  That's why this

 4     order was issued, so that the premises would be returned to those who

 5     used them.  The keys were returned, and the relevant commission was

 6     present.

 7        Q.   All right.  1D 01693.  This is 3 July 1992.  This is an order on

 8     providing security during agricultural work on the territory of Radusa.

 9             Why was this order issued?

10        A.   The Radusa mountain was where the defence line was for the HVO

11     and the TO forces facing the Serbian forces which had, in our mind,

12     occupied Kupres, and on the slopes of Radusa, in directly -- in the

13     direct vicinity of the war zone, the inhabitants who lived close to

14     Radusa had fields that they cultivated, and they had to be allowed to

15     harvest, to do their work without feeling that their lives were

16     threatened.

17        Q.   1D 01694.  This is an order on urgent repairs of a section of the

18     Gornji Vakuf-Novi Travnik road.  If you could explain just very briefly,

19     what section are we talking about, and why was this order issued?

20        A.   The road, the macadam road between Gornji Vakuf and Novi Travnik

21     was the only route that linked Central Bosnia to south-west Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, and this was the only section of route, the road called the

23     Road of Salvation, that could be used at the time.  Various vehicles used

24     this road; and as a result, it was necessary to repair the road.

25        Q.   1D 01688.  This is 8 July 1992, and I should ask you whether you

Page 34386

 1     were present when this order was decided upon.  This is to limit the

 2     opening and licensing hours of catering facilities.  So were you present,

 3     and why was this order issued?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   Why was it issued?

 6        A.   Well, because people, members of the armed forces, would spend

 7     most of their free time in town.  Many of them would drink.  In fact, all

 8     of them would drink - I have to put it that way - and that is why this

 9     order was issued.  Alcohol was not to be served after 1400 hours.

10     Rather, the purpose was to prevent people from drinking too much if they

11     had, well, let's say, pistols on them.  They could cause problems for

12     themselves and for everyone else in such cases.

13        Q.   1D 01696.  This is a conclusion.  We see your name as president

14     of the Executive Committee.  We can see this is issued on 27 July 1992.

15     It talks about the 13th extraordinary session; and of course, this is

16     about the installation of certain equipment for receiving HTV signals,

17     provided it doesn't interfere with TV BH.  So my first question would be,

18     if there is a Presidency, how is it that we are having an extraordinary

19     session of the Executive Committee?  If you could briefly answer that

20     question.

21        A.   The Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly of Gornji Vakuf

22     functioned in a normal manner at the time, and these so-called

23     operational matters were carried out by the Executive Committee.

24        Q.   All right.  I just want to make sure that we're all clear.  We

25     have the Presidency.  You told us, you know, the composition and how

Page 34387

 1     it -- how the Crisis Staff went away, and now you have this Presidency.

 2     So are we to understand that while we had the Presidency, the Executive

 3     Committee, as it had existed in the past, with its members having been

 4     appointed by the Municipal Assembly as you told us yesterday, were

 5     they -- was the Executive Committee still operational, still functioning

 6     in some capacity?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  We go on to the next document, 1D -- well, first let

 9     me -- let me go back to this conclusion.  Why was it -- why was this

10     conclusion passed?

11        A.   The TV relay was on an elevation above Gornji Vakuf, and we could

12     use that relay to follow the TV programme in Bosnia and Herzegovina when

13     it was broadcast.  The HVO wanted equipment to be installed at the TV

14     relay so that one could receive the Croatian television signal.  So it

15     was logical for us to adopt such a conclusion.

16        Q.   All right.  We go on to the next document, 1D 01783.  This is

17     another conclusion, same date, sign by you as president of the Executive

18     Committee, and this is for -- it says:  "Conscripts whose place of

19     residence is outside of Gornji Vakuf municipality shall be, with the

20     assistance of the HVO and territorial defence -- military police, sent to

21     the first free municipality which is territorially the closest to their

22     place of origin."

23             Could you please explain that to us?  I know we're talking about

24     conscripts, so these are men of military age, but what was the purpose

25     behind this conclusion?

Page 34388

 1        A.   When Bosnian Posavina fell, many military conscripts, both Croats

 2     and Muslims, arrived through Croatia and Herzegovina in Gornji Vakuf.  At

 3     one point in time, we had over 1.000 of them, and they had been provided

 4     with accommodation in the premises of the primary school in Gornji Vakuf

 5     and the sports hall and the primary school in Gornji Vakuf, in the gym in

 6     Gornji Vakuf; and initially, we all made a huge effort so that these

 7     people could be fed and so that they could have a rest.  But in -- when

 8     we look at it in the long-term, this was impossible to sustain.  And on

 9     the other hand, as military conscripts at that point in time, we did not

10     need them for the defence of the municipality of Gornji Vakuf from the

11     Serbian aggressor, and this is why having carried out political

12     consultations we adopted this conclusion according to which these

13     military conscripts should be escorted by military police of the TO and

14     HVO in vehicles that we provided, and they should be taken to the place

15     that was closest to their place of origin so that in these borderline

16     areas where a fierce war was being waged they could participate in the

17     defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, again, we see your name as president of the

19     Executive Council, and you signed it.  Was this your conclusion, or was

20     it the conclusion of the Executive Council?  I know we covered this

21     yesterday, but it might be helpful to remind us.

22        A.   This is an invitation to the presidencies of political parties

23     that won after the multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's an

24     invitation from the Executive Committee of Gornji Vakuf to attend a joint

25     meeting.

Page 34389

 1        Q.   All right.  That's the next document, but my earlier question was

 2     the conclusion that we spoke of, the two conclusions that were signed by

 3     you, were those your conclusions, your individual conclusions, or were

 4     they the conclusions of the Executive Committee as a collective body as

 5     you told us yesterday?

 6        A.   I only signed decisions, conclusions, and opinions of the

 7     Executive Committee when the Executive Committee took such decisions as a

 8     collective body or such a conclusion.

 9        Q.   Now, going on to the next document that you already commented on

10     briefly, 1D 01695.  We see the date is 30 July 1992, and what's -- and

11     this is a blank form, it would appear, because we don't see a name, but

12     we do see the agenda item:  "Problems encountered in the work of the

13     executive authorities in the municipality of Gornji Vakuf."  So perhaps

14     you could comment on this particular item.  What were, if any, the

15     problems that were being encountered by the executive authorities?

16        A.   At that time, the end of July 1992, one wasn't sure how the

17     executive authorities in Gornji Vakuf municipality should function given

18     the fact that around the 22nd of July, 1992, at a meeting of

19     representatives of the Croatian and Muslim population, which was attended

20     by over 50 of the most distinguished individuals from both peoples, well,

21     on that occasion Mr. Ivan Saric suggested that an executive authority for

22     the HVO be formed as an executive and administrative authority for the

23     municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

24        Q.   And was that executive and administrative authority actually set

25     up for the municipality of Gornji Vakuf at that time?

Page 34390

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Was it ever set up?  If not then, was it ever set up?

 3        A.   Not really.  De facto, no.  Not in 1992, never.

 4        Q.   All right.  And yesterday, I believe, you did tell us that there

 5     were no efforts to do so, but what about in 1993?  You said 1992, de

 6     facto, no.  What about in 1993?

 7        A.   In 1993, after the clash in January and February, around the

 8     beginning of March, both sides established their administrative bodies

 9     or, rather, the civilian authorities of the HVO functioned, and the

10     administration of the Gornji Vakuf municipality functioned.  Each

11     functioned individually according to the rules in force at the time.  The

12     HVO functioned on the basis of the regulations of the community of

13     Herceg-Bosna and the municipality of Gornji Vakuf according to the

14     regulations of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   All right.  1D 01682, unless there are some questions from the

16     Bench on the previous document or answer.  1D 01682.

17             Now, we see here at the very top, it says the date.  In English

18     we have it 12 October 1992, but in fact, unless the translation has been

19     corrected, it's 22nd October; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   All right.  And now -- and we see that it is signed by the

22     president of the Gornji Vakuf SDA.  That's Topcic.  Just very briefly if

23     you could comment on this.  It says:  "As the functioning of the

24     president of the Gornji Vakuf is carried out by the president of the

25     Gornji Vakuf SDA..."  And it goes on to say that the SDA essentially is

Page 34391

 1     nominating Mr. Abdulah Garaca to replace Muhamed Palalic.  Did that

 2     actually occur?  Did Mr. Palalic resign his position as the president, I

 3     guess, of the Presidency, and was he replaced by Mr. Garaca by the SDA?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, of course, there's nothing unusual in that.  He was

 6     appointed by the SDA, as you told us yesterday, and of course, they were

 7     entitled, the SDA --

 8        A.   The SDA suggested this person.

 9        Q.   All right.  And that was because of the elections, if I

10     understood your answers correctly yesterday.

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we go on to the next document, 1D 01787.  Here --

13     we saw earlier there was a notice.  This is another notice by Mr. Palalic

14     as president of the Presidency for Gornji Vakuf.  It's dated 6 November

15     1992, and this is to Mr. Saric, who you told us was the president of the

16     HDZ and also at the same time the president of the HVO, Gornji Vakuf.

17     And we see the agenda, reports by the commanders.  And here, it says

18     armed forces of Bosnia Herzegovina and commander of Gornji Vakuf HVO.

19     Perhaps you could explain to us the name.  We no longer see Territorial

20     Defence.  Instead, we see armed forces.  Is there an explanation for

21     that?

22        A.   I don't know exactly when the TO in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

23     army of the Muslim people, started calling itself the army of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina.  Perhaps it was at that time.

25        Q.   All right.  Do you know whether this meeting ever took place?  It

Page 34392

 1     appears it was supposed to be scheduled for 10 November 1992.  Did it

 2     take place as scheduled and, if so, what, if anything, happened?

 3        A.   This meeting was held on the 16th of November, 1992, when instead

 4     of Mr. Palalic as president of the Presidency of the municipality of

 5     Gornji Vakuf, Abdulah Galacic [as interpreted] was appointed to this

 6     function.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Saric appeared at that particular

 8     meeting?

 9        A.   Yes, he did.

10        Q.   And when he's being invited at this particular meeting, in what

11     capacity is he being invited?  By that I mean, we know that he holds two

12     different positions.  He's the president of the HDZ and also the

13     president of the HVO.

14        A.   Mr. Ivan Saric was de jure and de facto the president of the HDZ

15     for the Gornji Vakuf municipality.  De jure, he was a member of the

16     national defence council for Gornji Vakuf from mid-April 1992 -- or,

17     rather, he was automatically a member of the Presidency of the Gornji

18     Vakuf municipality as a result of that position, and that's why he was

19     invited to attend this session of the Presidency of the municipality of

20     Gornji Vakuf.

21        Q.   All right.  1D 00947.  1D 00947.  This is dated 6 November 1992,

22     and this is a report on the events in the territory of the municipality

23     of Gornji Vakuf for the period 19 to 31 October 1992.

24             If you go to the very end of the page -- of the document, we see

25     that it is signed by the president of HVO, Ivan Saric, the same gentleman

Page 34393

 1     that you've told us, but we also see -- and we see the seal HZ HB HVO.

 2     This is the same individual who was president of the HDZ and was also a

 3     member of the National Defence Council, correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  If you look at this report, towards the latter -- the

 6     very last paragraph in the first page in English, I draw everyone's

 7     attention to -- to this particular portion, but in the text it appears

 8     that Mr. Saric says that you, Zdravko Batinic, was a member of the HVO

 9     Gornji Vakuf, and he also mentions in the same line a Fabijan Trbara.

10             Now, yesterday I asked you concretely and rather directly whether

11     you were a member of the HVO Gornji Vakuf, that is the executive

12     authority in 1992 or 1993, and I believe you told us no, and here we see

13     this document.  Can you explain that, sir?  Were you a member, or were

14     you not?

15        A.   I was not.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, have you had a chance to look at this report,

17     sir?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   And, of course, you were familiar with the events at the time

20     because you told us you were living there, and can you confirm or can you

21     assist us in whether the accounts that are being reported by Mr. Saric

22     are accurate?

23        A.   It corresponds to the events as described here.

24        Q.   All right.  Unless there are any questions, I'll move on to the

25     next document.

Page 34394

 1             If we go to 1D 01789.  And, of course, this is in connection to

 2     the previous document that we had seen, 1D 01696.  This is from Abdulah

 3     Topcic, president of the SDA.  We saw the conclusion that the -- that had

 4     been passed by the executive council, and here now we have the president

 5     of the SDA saying the following on November 23, 1992:

 6              "With reference to your request for authorisation to install an

 7     HTV Croatian television signal receiver, we hereby inform you that the

 8     party has neither the authority nor the right to authorise this because

 9     the relay is owned by BH RTV," that is radio television of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, "who should therefore be approached in the views above -- in

11     view of the above."

12             And then, of course, we see who is being copied, the armed forces

13     of Gornji Vakuf being one of them.

14             First of all, the Executive Council -- if we go back to 1696, if

15     you could find that document real quickly.  This is a conclusion.  Is a

16     conclusion the same as a request?

17        A.   A conclusion expresses agreement, whereas a request is asking for

18     something.

19        Q.   All right.  Can you please explain how is it that the Executive

20     Committee, which had both Muslims and Croats as you indicated yesterday,

21     how it is that they as a legitimate organ, political organ, passes a

22     conclusion, and then we have the president of the SDA make -- deciding

23     whether the conclusion is going to be implemented or not, and in this

24     case saying -- calling it a request and then denying the so-called

25     request and also informing the Muslim armed forces?

Page 34395

 1        A.   This letter by the president of the SDA for Gornji Vakuf

 2     municipality does not respect the conclusion of the executive council of

 3     the municipality, and at the same time the armed forces are being asked,

 4     probably of the BH army, of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion, to

 5     prevent any attempt to mount a signal to receive the Croatian television.

 6        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 00207.  This is

 7     dated 5 January 1993.  This is signed by Saric as the president of the

 8     HVO in Gornji Vakuf, HVO in, in Gornji Vakuf, and it says here that:

 9     "Yesterday, on 4 January 1993, members of the 305 Muslim -- Mountain

10     Brigade of the BH army of Jajce raided the offices of Gornji Vakuf

11     Municipal Council of the trade unions at the order of the president of

12     the Executive Board of Gornji Vakuf SDA, Mr. Abdulah Topcic."

13             It talks about the removal of flags, bursts of fire, that these

14     forces did the same with ten other Croatian flags, and so on.  And, of

15     course, there is a request at the end from the Executive Board of the SDA

16     and the command of the Gornji Vakuf BH army in the strongest possible

17     terms to inform them about what measures would be taken to rectify this

18     or stop this sort of behaviour.

19             Can you tell us whether, indeed, these incidents occurred, first

20     of all?

21        A.   Yes, they did.

22        Q.   What was the 305 Mountain Brigade of BH army from Jajce doing in

23     Gornji Vakuf at the time, if you know?  Go ahead.

24        A.   We put the same question to representatives of the Muslim people,

25     that is, to the command of the 317th Brigade, which was a domicile

Page 34396

 1     brigade of Muslims in Gornji Vakuf, and their answer was that they had

 2     brought them there for a vacation.  We didn't believe them, but there was

 3     nothing we could do to remove them.

 4        Q.   All right.  A vacation or to sort of rest?  Because I've been to

 5     Gornji Vakuf.  In all due respect, I don't think one vacations in Gornji

 6     Vakuf.  Maybe Jahorina, but not Gornji Vakuf.

 7        A.   They brought between 500 and 600 members of the 305th Jajce

 8     Brigade.  I told you what their explanation was.  I cannot speculate.  Of

 9     course, we didn't believe it.

10        Q.   All right.  And where were the -- these offices located, the

11     trade union, the council of the trade unions?  Where were the offices

12     actually located?

13        A.   The trade union office was in the part of town inhabited mostly

14     by Muslims.

15        Q.   Was that in the middle of the town, outskirts, outside the town?

16        A.   Very close to the centre of town.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, had -- how long, if you know, if you could tell

18     us, how long had those flags been up?  We do see that the date here is 5

19     January 1993 about an event that occurred the day before.  Do you know

20     how long those flags had been up?

21        A.   But it is customary for the Croats, before Christmas, to hoist

22     their national emblems, and then they stay there until at least the Holy

23     Three Kings, that is, the 6th of January.  In 1993, that was the day that

24     this festivity occurs.  That is from the 25th of December, 1992, until at

25     least the 6th of January, 1993.

Page 34397

 1        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01698.  And

 2     keeping in mind your previous answer to my question concerning about the

 3     establishment of authorities, civilian authorities, and you told us that

 4     there were two separate administrative authorities.  6 April 1993, and

 5     this document, 1D 01698, we see that this particular individuals, Danica

 6     Saric, is being relieved of her position.  Do you know why this decision

 7     was actually issued by Mr. Garaca, who now is the president of the

 8     Presidency?

 9        A.   At the time that this conclusion was adopted, that is the 29th of

10     April, 1993, in the municipality of Gornji Vakuf there were two separate

11     organs of authority, that is of the HVO and its administration, and

12     Garaca with his own administration as the Muslim municipality.  That is

13     why such a conclusion was adopted.

14             Mrs. Danica Saric, until the beginning of January 1993, was the

15     secretary of the Municipal Assembly.

16        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01699.  In

17     keeping with the answer that you just gave us, here we have a conclusion

18     of 29 April 1993, again by Mr. Garaca, where it says:  "All Croat

19     officials relieved of their duties in administrative organs hereby lose

20     their status of administrative officials until a final agreement has been

21     reached on the organisation of all organs based on the principle of

22     parity."

23             Can you explain this conclusion, sir?

24        A.   Very simple.  As two administrations had been set up which were

25     services for the two peoples, they considered it logical for employees of

Page 34398

 1     the joint administration to be fired from the administration that was

 2     headed by Mr. Garaca.

 3        Q.   All right.  We go on to the next document, 1D 01808 -- 09.  1D

 4     01809.  And this is 24 July 1993.  This is signed by Mr. Saric as

 5     president of the HVO and HDZ, and now it says Uskoplje municipality.  So

 6     which municipality are we speaking of now in light of this name?

 7        A.   The Croats always call this area Uskoplje, and after de facto and

 8     de jure the separation occurred within the administration in Gornji Vakuf

 9     and developed into two administrations, the Croatian part was called by

10     the Croats Uskoplje.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, in this letter we see that Mr. Saric is writing

12     to various organisations, the head of the European Community, UNPROFOR,

13     the Red Cross, and he's asking for assistance because his father, aged

14     70, was apparently taken, and now the Muslim forces are willing to

15     exchange his 70-year-old father for 12 of their men.

16             Do you know whether in fact this is accurate, and can you tell us

17     what, if anything, happened as a result of this event of Mr. Saric's

18     father being kidnapped or taken?

19        A.   Unfortunately, this is true.  Mr. Ivan Saric's father was

20     captured by the Muslim forces and taken first in an unknown direction.

21     Later on, we learnt that it -- he was held captive in a Muslim settlement

22     called Grnica.  It took some time before he was finally released or,

23     rather, exchanged, but it is a fact that they tried to use an old man, a

24     civilian, to demand or receive some of their members who in their opinion

25     were captured by the HVO, which at the time was not true.

Page 34399

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, 1D 01801.  Here we have this report or part of a

 2     report dated 5 August 1993.  If we look at the very bottom of it, it says

 3     that this is compiled by the department or just -- it says department of

 4     analysis, Professor Davor Cordas, and I want to focus your attention at

 5     the latter part where it talks about report on Croats displaced from the

 6     municipality of Gornji Vakuf who arrived in Prozor municipality on 29 and

 7     30 July 1993, and we see the figure 2.000.  Do you know whether this

 8     figure accurately reflects the events, that is, people being displaced

 9     from Gornji Vakuf to Prozor?

10        A.   Unfortunately, yes, and this figure of 2.000 displaced Croats

11     from Gornji Vakuf municipality who had to find accommodation in Prozor is

12     the lowest number of Croats expelled.  I can say that my whole family, my

13     brothers, my parents, my wife and children, were among them.

14        Q.   All right.  This was not an attempt, by any chance, for reverse

15     ethnic cleansing, to ethnically cleanse the Croats of Gornji Vakuf and

16     send them someplace?  That is, by the Croats, cleansing themselves of

17     their historical lands that they occupied for centuries?

18             MS. MOE:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone in

19     and around the courtroom.  It would be preferable if the witness's

20     answers could be more narrative and not so much "yes" and "no" and

21     "correct" and that Mr. Karnavas could refrain from leading questions.

22     Thank you.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:

24        Q.   Do you know -- do you know how it was that these Croats were

25     removed or arrived in Prozor municipality?

Page 34400

 1        A.   At the beginning of August 1993, Muslim forces attacked the

 2     defence lines of the HVO in Gornji Vakuf from several sides with much

 3     stronger forces, and so as to save their lives, people had to withdraw

 4     and seek shelter; otherwise, they would have been killed.  And as a

 5     result of this attack by Muslim forces on Croatian-inhabited areas was

 6     the exodus of Croats to the nearest free area, and for us that was the

 7     municipality of Prozor.

 8        Q.   All right.  You say this was at the beginning of August 1993 when

 9     the Muslim forces attacked.  This report here talks about the 29th and

10     30th of July, 1993.  So this would have pre-dated the attack.  Can you

11     give an explanation?

12        A.   The end of July or the beginning of August for me is the same

13     thing.  These were the most difficult days for the Croat -- Croatian

14     people in Uskoplje.

15        Q.   All right.  And finally, let's go to the next or last document in

16     this bundle, which is 1D 01791, and this is a report of sorts from

17     Mr. Saric, who is -- we've heard about.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas.

19             I find your last answer a bit strange, I must confess,

20     Mr. Batinic, because we have here a document which relates these

21     movements, and it is dated 5th August, but it refers to July; and the

22     attacks, you yourself said that was in the beginning of August, and that

23     is after 29th of -- 28th of July.  Now, are you saying that when you said

24     beginning of August you misspoke, that that was an error?  That is, of

25     course, possible.

Page 34401

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information provided by

 2     Mr. Davor Cordas dated the 5th of August, 1993, relates to the situation

 3     that already existed regarding the number of expelled Croats from Gornji

 4     Vakuf - or, rather, Uskoplje as we called it - and this number is the

 5     smallest number of displaced Croats in Prozor.  According to my memory,

 6     this started between the 31st of July and the 1st of August.  That is why

 7     I said the beginning of August.  To the best of my recollection, it

 8     happened between the 31st of July and the 1st of August.  The 31st of

 9     July, 1993, and the 1st of August, 1993.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  What is it -- what is it that happened at that

11     time according to you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

13     from several directions attacked the defence lines of the HVO in

14     inhabited places which were mostly inhabited by Croats.  The defence

15     lines broke, and the Croatian people fled from those inhabited areas.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, apparently they flew before.  If we look

17     at the dates that you named, they had already flown, but I would be

18     interested.  Probably, there were rumours or there were informations, and

19     they didn't -- which makes a lot of sense.  They didn't wait to be shot

20     up and shelled.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said and I repeat, according to

22     my recollection, the largest-scale exodus occurred in the night between

23     the 31st of July and the 1st of August, 1993.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] I leave it at that.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:

Page 34402

 1        Q.   When was it that your family fled the area?

 2        A.   Except for my wife and two minor children who had left two days

 3     earlier, my parents, brothers and their wives fled that same night, that

 4     is between the 31st of July and the 1st of August, as far as I can

 5     remember.

 6        Q.   So at least some of your family members left two days earlier, if

 7     I understand your answer correctly.

 8        A.   Yes.  My wife and two small babies.

 9        Q.   And what was the reason?  If the attack took place later on, what

10     was the reason for them leaving two or three days earlier?  That's the

11     question, I believe, that Judge Trechsel was asking you.

12        A.   The main reason was the fact that the free part of our

13     municipality, according to Croatian criteria, was in a semi-encirclement.

14     Before that, Bugojno had fallen, and from the direction of Novi Travnik

15     we could expect attacks by Muslim forces; and therefore, it was

16     absolutely essential for a woman with two babies to leave.

17        Q.   All right.  If we go to the next document, 1D 01791.  We see here

18     from Mr. Saric he lists 20 villages in Gornji Vakuf municipality.  This

19     is September 29, 1993.  Are you familiar with these villages?

20        A.   All of them.

21        Q.   Okay.  And he says that in all of these 20 villages, the Croats

22     are no longer living there.  They're no longer there.

23             First, can you confirm to us whether Croats actually were there

24     prior to any events; and secondly, if they were there, if they had been

25     living there, whether Mr. Saric is correct in saying that as at least 29

Page 34403

 1     September, none of them were in these villages?

 2        A.   Unfortunately, he was right.

 3        Q.   All right.  I have one last document to show you, and that's it.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  That will only take about one minute, Your

 5     Honours, and then we could have our morning break.

 6        Q.   That's 1D 02961, and I believe you also have the original of this

 7     document with you.  Is that correct, sir?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... it may be of some -- it

10     might be helpful.  We might need to put one page of it on the -- on the

11     ELMO so we could see it, which means that we'll require the assistance of

12     the usher.

13             If we -- first of all, if you could identify -- this is 1D 02961.

14     If you could identify what this document is, and if I could get the

15     assistance of the usher so we could put this on the ELMO.  And I'm going

16     to be asking you to put --

17        A.   This document is the statute programme principles with

18     attachments of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna founded on the 24th

19     of May, 1997.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   The 24th of May, 1997.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, if you could locate the page where we have the -- the

23     flag of the Croatian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina and put that on so

24     we could see it because we spoke of that.

25             Now, could you please tell us, what is the first part?  We see

Page 34404

 1     there are two -- we see a flag, and we see what appears to be a coat of

 2     arms.  Could you please explain that to us very briefly what those are.

 3        A.   Mr. Karnavas, this is -- it is not reminiscent of the coat of

 4     arms.  It is the coat of arms of the Croatian people in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina and their flag.

 6        Q.   All right.  And this flag is not the flag of the -- of the

 7     Republic of Croatia?

 8        A.   No.  No.

 9        Q.   All right.  And -- now, you said that this was a founding

10     statute, and I believe you gave us the date of 1997.  Is this

11     organisation with this particular statute and insignia, is it registered

12     as an organisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Was it registered then, and is

13     it registered now, today, some ten years later?

14        A.   Yes.  It was registered in the courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

15     1997, and it normally exists today as such.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, excuse me.  Do we

17     have a copy of this document in English?

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Unfortunately, we do not.  And we can provide

19     that.  Of course -- and it will be provided.  It's being translated, I'm

20     told.  The purpose at this point was merely to show the -- the

21     Croatian -- the flag of the Croatian peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina

22     because there seems to be some confusion at times.  And also, the purpose

23     was to show that even today this is recognised.  This is a registered

24     organisation.

25             We received this from the witness himself, so that's why -- and

Page 34405

 1     we received it rather late, which is why we haven't been able to

 2     translate it among all the other things that we're constantly translating

 3     to keep up.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honours, that concludes my direct

 6     examination.

 7             Mr. Batinic, I want to thank you very much for your testimony, at

 8     least this part of it, and I would be most grateful if you would be as

 9     forthright and direct in answering the questions that anyone else may

10     have for you.  Thank you again.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a 20-minute

12     break now, after which we'll continue with the cross-examination by the

13     other accused.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence team for the other

17     accused now has two hours at its disposal.  Who will be starting?

18             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good day to everyone.

19     The Coric Defence has no questions for this witness.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.  Good day to

21     everyone in the courtroom.  The Stojic Defence has some questions.  I

22     think you'll now be provided with the binders for our cross-examination,

23     our files.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Batinic.

Page 34406

 1        A.   Good day.

 2        Q.   My name is Senka Nozica.  I'll ask you a few questions and show

 3     you some documents that have to do with the first attack - that's how I

 4     would call it - of the ABiH, against HVO units during the time period

 5     that you have mentioned was a period from the 11th of January, 1993, up

 6     until the 27th of February, 1993.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like to inform the Judges that

 8     my questions will have to do with this period alone and with this subject

 9     alone.  In my opinion, they will be related to the questions put to the

10     witness in the examination-in-chief.

11        Q.   Mr. Batinic, have a look at my binder, the pink one that you have

12     just been given.  We'll have a look at a number of documents that confirm

13     what you've said in the course of the examination-in-chief.  I'm not sure

14     whether you have already seen these documents.  Some of them you probably

15     haven't seen yet, but I think they say the same sort of things that you

16     have been testifying about.

17             I just want to check whether you remember that this is how events

18     unfolded in the way described in the documents.  So the first document is

19     P 01102, the first document in my binder.  It's dated the 12th of

20     January, 1993.  It's called an intelligence report, Dr. Ante Starcevic.

21     Mr. Pero Mejdandzic issued it for the brigade.  Do you know him?

22        A.   Yes, I know Mr. Mejdandzic.

23        Q.   I'll read out what it says here.  I haven't shown you this

24     document before.  Quite a few places are mentioned.  Reference is made to

25     the beginning of the conflict, but for the sake of the transcript, I just

Page 34407

 1     want to point out that I'll provide this document later.  If certain

 2     place names are not correctly entered, one can make corrections later.

 3     It says:  "Since the previous report, the Muslim forces have blocked the

 4     Bugojno-Gornji Vakuf road in the villages of Drazev and Duratbegov Dolac.

 5     Units from Grnica have captured five soldiers from the Ludvig Pavlovic

 6     unit in Rajci where fierce fights are taking place.  The BH army units

 7     from Voljice-Osridak is pounding the Trnovaca neighbourhood with

 8     82-millimetre mortars.  The 30-strong unit from Voljevac has sent to

 9     intercept the HVO units on the Makljen-Vakuf axis.  The entrance to the

10     town is completely blocked.  The Uzricje neighbourhood must be cleared in

11     order to free the entrance to the town.  Units from Voljice have received

12     orders to pound Podovi from Osridak and to be ready for an infantry

13     attack.

14             Mr. Batinic, can you tell us, are you aware of the fact that the

15     documents unfolded in the way described in the first paragraph of the

16     document on this day and on the previous day?

17        A.   On the 12th of January, 1993, I was still a civilian in my house.

18     I was waiting to see how things would unfold, the events that commenced

19     on the 11th of January, so I can't confirm what is stated here, but given

20     the assumptions with regard to the places mentioned here, well, I believe

21     that Mr. Mejdandzic described the way events actually unfolded on the

22     ground.

23        Q.   I will then ask you to continue reading this because you probably

24     heard something about this in the town at the time.

25             It says:  "They're attacking Grebine and Zvizde from the town.

Page 34408

 1     In the centre of town, the BH army has strongholds --"

 2             MS. MOE:  Your Honours, I would like a clarification from the

 3     witness on his last answer.  He says he can't confirm what is stated

 4     here, but given the assumptions with regard to the places mentioned here,

 5     well, I believe that Mr. Mejdandzic described how the events unfolded on

 6     the ground, and the question is then the foundation.  It's for the

 7     witness to have this opinion.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, could you get the

 9     witness to be more precise?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that on the 12th of January,

11     1993, I was at home.  I was waiting to see what would happen, to see how

12     things would unfold, how the events that had commenced on the 11th of

13     January, 1993, would unfold.  And when I said that I believe that

14     Mr. Mejdandzic correctly described the events at the time, well, Drazev

15     and Izetbegovic wanted ethnically-clean places.  Grnica is a Muslim

16     place.  Osridak is a Muslim place.  That's why this is what I said.  I

17     said that I believe that Mr. Mejdandzic said the truth.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Batinic, how do you know that

19     Mr. Izetbegovic wanted to ethnically cleanse Gornji Vakuf?  Did he tell

20     you?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The interpreter

22     misheard the name the witness said.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mention that, Your Honour.

24     Mr. Izetbegovic, I didn't mention the name of Mr. Izetbegovic.  Someone

25     has mistranslated this.

Page 34409

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That has been confirmed from the translation

 2     booth, but maybe you repeat what you have in fact said so that we can

 3     hear it correctly.  If you could repeat that sentence.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 12th of January, 1993, I was

 5     a civilian, and I was at home, in a home close to my home, in fact, where

 6     there was a temporary shelter in case of danger, in case of shelling.  I

 7     was there with my family, naturally.

 8             I can't confirm what Mr. Mejdandzic said about the 12th of

 9     January, 1993, but I do believe that what he said corresponded to the

10     situation on the ground at the time because the inhabited places referred

11     to here were ethnically purely Muslim places.  Drazev Dolac, Duratbegov

12     Dolac, Grnica, and Osridak.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, you said where you were on the 12th.  I'd like to read

16     out the remainder of the document because it says what the situation was

17     like in the town, and perhaps you will be able to confirm some of this.

18             The second paragraph says:  "From the town, Grebine and Zvizde is

19     being attacked.  In the centre of town, stronghold of the army of Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina is the centre of culture, the town cafe, the Hotel

21     Radusa, Gradina, the fire brigade home, the KB 1 and KB 2 buildings, the

22     Gornja Dzamija area, the machine park, and the relay.

23             Were the ABiH forces deployed in this way in the town as far as

24     you can remember?

25        A.   On the 12th of January, I don't know whether they were deployed

Page 34410

 1     here, but on the evening of the 13th of January, when I was in the

 2     command of the HVO for the defence of the part of town of Gornji Vakuf

 3     mainly inhabited by the Croats, well, at the time such things were

 4     confirmed.

 5        Q.   If I've understood you correctly, you do not know whether this

 6     was the situation on the 12th or, rather, you didn't know on the 12th,

 7     but on the 13th you yourself bore witness to the fact that these

 8     allegations were correct?

 9        A.   No, not personally.  I didn't personally bear witness to the

10     fact.  I received this information from people who at the time dealt with

11     the defence of the part of town mainly inhabited by Croats.

12        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Let's move on.

13             It says:  "The BH army has been reinforced in Rajci by men who

14     came from the direction of Novi Travnik wearing woven acorns as their

15     insignia."

16             On that day or later on, did you know anything about the fact

17     that the ABiH received reinforcements from Novi Travnik, perhaps from

18     Bugojno, for that attack?  Did you have any such information?

19        A.   I didn't have such information as stated by Mr. Mejdandzic

20     because my house, which was where I was at the time, was a kilometre and

21     a half from the HVO barracks.

22        Q.   Mr. Batinic, I asked you -- well, it wasn't on that day but on

23     the next day.  Some reinforcements for the ABiH came; they lingered in

24     the area.  On the following day, did you have the opportunity of seeing

25     that the ABiH had received reinforcements from outside?

Page 34411

 1        A.   Well, on the 13th of January there were such confirmations of

 2     what was described here that were received on a number of occasions.

 3        Q.   Mr. Batinic, we'll get through this document more easily, a

 4     document which I believe is very important, if you tell me immediately,

 5     "I didn't know about that on the 12th, but I found out about this on the

 6     13th or the 14th."  I'm not asking you to say whether you were aware of

 7     this on that day.  Well, this is very precise military information.  I

 8     know that you couldn't have such information from your house on that

 9     time -- at that time, but you could have subsequently found out about

10     this or found out about the consequences of what is described here.

11             Let's move on.  "There were mortars --" it mentions a mortar or

12     reference is made to the ABiH above -- "They have a mortar above

13     Duratbegov Dolac..." it says.  "Heavy shelling of the town and its

14     surroundings began at 15 -- 1500 hours."

15             Can you remember, Mr. Batinic, that on that day that is what

16     happened?  Did you hear about that?  Did you hear that?  Did you hear

17     there was shelling of the town?

18        A.   There was fierce shelling of the town.

19        Q.   Very well.  Then it mentions the strength of various units.

20     Perhaps you don't know about this, but let's read through it.  It says:

21     "The concentration of forces is as follows:  Around 1.000 men in Vakuf,

22     around 900 men in Voljevac, around 550 men in Grnica, about 550 men in

23     Voljice."  It says:  "Units are positioned in predominantly Muslim

24     neighbourhoods, Drazev Dolac, Duratbegov Dolac, Hrasnica, Luzani, Rojska,

25     Grnica, Bistrica.  About 70 men because of the population is

Page 34412

 1     predominantly Croatian, Jagnjid, Gaj, Osridak, Voljice, Kute, Batusa,

 2     Odvode.  You have a part of town, Vrse, Zdrimci, with very few men

 3     because the population is predominantly Croatian.  Uzricje, about 40 men

 4     where 10 of our houses are also located."

 5             Can you just confirm what is stated here?  Which were these

 6     hamlets mainly inhabited by Muslims, and is it correct to say that these

 7     hamlets mentioned here were mainly inhabited by Croats?

 8        A.   Yes.  This corresponds to the national composition of the

 9     settlements in the area.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  Just to avoid misunderstandings,

11     what you confirm, Mr. Batinic, is that these villages are either Muslims

12     or they have some Croat inhabitants, or can you also confirm that the

13     ABiH on the 12th of January took positions there in the order -- in the

14     size that is written in the document?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said, and I will

16     repeat what I said, that the settlements mentioned here which -- where

17     the Muslims inhabited as majority or the Croats as a majority, well,

18     these settlements correspond to -- to what was said about these places.

19     They are -- ethnically, they have an ethnic majority of Croats or Muslims

20     in these places.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I had to ask back because the

22     question -- the question had a double content of information, first about

23     the places and then that the ABiH had been there at that time, and you

24     confirmed the first but not the second part of it.  Thank you.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll just make this

Page 34413

 1     clear for the sake of the transcript.  I read out the entire paragraph

 2     for the witness, but my question had to do exclusively with whether he

 3     could confirm that these inhabitants were mainly inhabited by Croats --

 4     these settlements were mainly inhabited by Croats or by Bosniaks or,

 5     rather, Muslims.  I believe that what the witness said is that he doesn't

 6     have any precise information about the things mentioned in this document.

 7        Q.   Mr. Batinic, let's have a look at the following document,

 8     although it also refers to the 12th of January, 1993.  This document is P

 9     01112.  It's the following document in the binder.  It's been admitted

10     into evidence already, but I would like to draw your attention to

11     something that I believe is very important.

12             This is a report from the operational zone of North-west

13     Herzegovina.  It's been drafted by Tonko Dzalto dated the 12th of

14     January.

15             Let's have a look at the first paragraph of this report, which is

16     about that period.  It says:  "In the zone of responsibility of the OZSZ,

17     there were no enemy combat activities reported.  It is possible that the

18     enemy was firing at our forces in the white area of Vakuf."  In brackets,

19     it says "the Chetniks."  "Since we came to know through an intelligence

20     report about an order from Banja Luka issued to the commander in Kupres."

21             In 3, it mentions the capturing of five members of the Ludvig

22     Pavlovic unit; and item 4, it says:  "We request that you urgently

23     arrange for negotiations with ABiH on a higher level in order to

24     normalise and calm the situation in Gornji Vakuf down."

25             Mr. Batinic, the Chetniks are referred to as the enemy in the

Page 34414

 1     first paragraph.  That's important.  Can you confirm that at the time

 2     there were Chetnik attacks or enemy attacks, as it says here, during the

 3     period when there was a conflict between the ABiH and the HVO?

 4        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.  The Serbian forces could use the

 5     artillery to reach the area of Gornji Vakuf municipality.  Given the

 6     conflict between the HVO and the ABiH, they took advantage of this, and

 7     in January they shelled us on a number of occasions.

 8        Q.   For the sake of the Judges, can you say what they meant -- what

 9     you meant to say when you said that they amused themselves?  I assume

10     that referred to shelling, but I wouldn't want your answer to be

11     interpreted in various ways.

12        A.   Well, they used their artillery to shell part of the inhabited

13     places where the Croats were in the majority, and then they did the same

14     thing to shell places inhabited mainly by Muslims, and then each side

15     thought that they were being shelled by the other side.  The Muslims

16     thought the HVO was shelling them, and the HVO thought that the Muslims

17     were shelling them.  That's what I mean when I say they were amusing

18     themselves, having fun.

19        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.  Did you have any information

20     according to which five members of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit had been

21     captured, perhaps not on that day but perhaps on the following day.  Did

22     you hear about that?

23        A.   Later on, not only about this but about many other cases in which

24     individuals were captured.

25        Q.   Mr. Batinic, you were someone who was highly involved in the

Page 34415

 1     political and public life of Gornji Vakuf, so you must have known that

 2     there were constant attempts by the HVO to calm things down; and from the

 3     fourth paragraph, one can see that we urge the arrangement of

 4     negotiations as soon as possible.  Was it the HVO's position and wish to

 5     end the conflict as soon as possible?

 6        A.   I know that in the area where I was we wanted this madness to

 7     cease, but since the Paket communications were in the barracks of the HVO

 8     a kilometre and a half away from the place where I was, unfortunately I

 9     could not see these original documents.  I couldn't contact my brothers

10     or my parents.  I was unable to see them for almost a month, even though

11     they were not so far away.

12        Q.   Mr. Batinic, please relax.  I'm not asking you whether you saw

13     this document.  I know that you didn't see the document.  I'm just asking

14     you whether you're aware of what the document says, of the events

15     referred to in this document.

16             You said the conflict ended on the 27th.  My question is, did the

17     HVO seek to put an end to the conflict or, rather, before that to prevent

18     it from breaking out?  That is my question.

19        A.   Please don't misunderstand me.  I am not unrelaxed, to put it

20     that way.  I'm just talking about what I know and what I don't know.

21     Much later after this event did I have more information about the

22     endeavours invested by the Croatian side, the HVO, to put an end to this

23     madness.

24        Q.   That was all I was asking you about.  Everything is fine.  Thank

25     you.  I'm sorry if you object to my remark about relaxation.  Just tell

Page 34416

 1     us what you know about that period or about what you learned later on.  I

 2     am not asking you whether you saw a document or not.

 3             Since you mentioned the situation with regard to the Chetniks and

 4     their activities, will you skip over one of the documents in my binder,

 5     and let's pass on to the next one.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we do that, I have a

 7     follow-up question.

 8             Witness, in Gornji Vakuf, were there any representatives of the

 9     international community?  Was there UNPROFOR, a European mission or

10     observers?  Were there any foreigners who were in Gornji Vakuf, or was

11     there no one?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In January 1993, I cannot confirm

13     that peace forces did -- were stationed in Gornji Vakuf.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To the best of your knowledge,

15     who was the commander of the Serb forces who amused themselves by

16     alternatively shelling the Croats and then the Muslims?  Did you know

17     that or not?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Let me now ask you to move on to document 2D 00219.  So just

22     leave out one in my binder.  It is an order -- have you found it?  It is

23     the same date of the 12th of January, 1993, and it is addressed to the

24     Ante Starcevic brigade of Gornji Vakuf.  It is a response to a report

25     dated of the 12th of January, and it says:  "To release our arrestees in

Page 34417

 1     a peaceful way according to the principle all for all.  Hold our forces

 2     under control in order to avoid provocations and not to start any

 3     themselves.  Follow the situation and report regularly.  As far as the

 4     Voljevac-Gornji Vakuf direction is concerned, you have forces in the

 5     village of Dobrosin.  Ensure a connection with them, and regulate their

 6     use if necessary."

 7             Now we come to what my question will refer to.  "We managed to

 8     obtain some intelligence information that the Chetniks have been ordered

 9     to strike the Muslim village by one weapon and the Croatian village with

10     another in order to give the impression that the Croats are opening fire

11     against the Muslims, that is, the Muslims against the Croats.  The

12     Chetniks, through their informers, are most probably aware of the general

13     situation in Gornji Vakuf.  Therefore, in this way they wish to provoke a

14     mutual conflict between the Croats and Muslims, which is in their

15     interest."

16             Mr. Batinic, was that the situation that you described a moment

17     ago when describing the behaviour of the Chetniks?

18        A.   Yes.  That is the situation that I described saying that the

19     Serbs amused themselves at our expense.

20        Q.   Very well.  Now, let's go on to the next document when you said

21     that the situation calmed down on the 27th of February.  So let us look

22     at the document dated the 23rd of February, 1993, where there is mention

23     of UNPROFOR forces, and this is linked to the question put to you by His

24     Honour Judge Antonetti.  So before we look at the document, let me ask

25     you, can you remember roughly when UNPROFOR reached the area of Gornji

Page 34418

 1     Vakuf?

 2        A.   According to the best of my knowledge, in the early spring of

 3     1993.

 4        Q.   They are mentioned here on the 23rd of February that there were

 5     discussions about the conditions of a cease-fire and the implementation

 6     of that cease-fire agreement.

 7             Can you remember whether they were there at this time?  I don't

 8     know what for you is the early spring because they were obviously there

 9     on the 23rd of February according to this document.  That is in Prozor.

10     This is a report from Prozor.

11        A.   When I said the early spring of 1993, I am referring to their

12     base when they were stationed in our municipality, and they were

13     stationed in the former barracks of the -- of the BH army, in the factory

14     there.

15        Q.   Could you explain this?  So in the early spring, they set up

16     their base; but did they appear individually from other areas?  Did

17     representatives of UNPROFOR come for negotiations from another base?

18        A.   In that period, I was with a group of home guards in the

19     industrial zone.  They didn't come to my area, so I can't confirm that.

20        Q.   We were talking about the Chetnik attacks in January.  Here it

21     says:  "Last night, the Chetniks deployed artillery against the area S1

22     from the village of Lapsunj and from S2 from Prozor.  They acted

23     simultaneously upon the area of Gornji Vakuf in the zone of

24     responsibility of the Rama Brigade.  About 30 grenades fell, and 4

25     grenades fell in the zone of responsibility of the Ante Starcevic

Page 34419

 1     brigade."

 2             Can you confirm that the Chetniks continued their attacks in

 3     February, too, and not just in January 1993?

 4        A.   Yes, I can, in view of the fact that in the area of our

 5     municipality there was only infantry weapons.  There was no shelling, and

 6     then the shells that fell on our area came from the direction of the

 7     north, from Kupres, and these were fired by the Serb forces.

 8        Q.   The last passage of this document refers to this.  I heard your

 9     answer when you said you were with the home guards.  Are you aware of

10     these events?

11             I'm being told that I didn't give the number of document.  2D

12     01427.  2D 01427.

13             Have you found it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In the last paragraph, it says - and I am repeating that I know

16     that you said you were with the home guards, but maybe you are aware of

17     this event:  "The work of representatives from the HVO and the army of

18     BiH in the presence of UNPROFOR continued in Gornji Vakuf.  The

19     realisation of the plan is being followed.  Some settlements (Croatian

20     and Muslim) have received food.  Both sides presented their plans for the

21     normalisation of life in the city with the emphasis on measures which are

22     to be undertaken by civilian bodies.  Plans are being discussed today,

23     and tomorrow they will be adopted."

24             So it says:  "Our representatives Begic and a representative of

25     the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Cikotic visited the location today,

Page 34420

 1     and they found a massacre in the village of Rojska to be true, and they

 2     found slaughtered bodies of Franjo and Finka Okadar in their home."

 3             Do you remember this specific incident?  Were people talking

 4     about it, and do you remember that there were any such situations of

 5     crimes committed against Croats in the January and February of 1993?

 6        A.   I remember this event perfectly well.  Unfortunately, it is true

 7     that in the settlement of Rojska, which was an ethnically pure Muslim

 8     settlement, the Okadar family was massacred.  People took photographs --

 9     the people who took photographs and later buried them told me about this,

10     specifically Mr. Vuka Spelin [phoen].

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't quite get the name.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The interpreter didn't hear the name of this person who told you

14     about this.

15        A.   Mr. Luka Sekerija, yes.

16        Q.   Now it's correctly written, yes.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to point out

18     that all these questions of mine referred to the attacks in January of

19     1993 by the BH army, and they referred to chapter 65 and 66 -- counts 65

20     and 66 of the indictment.  I will now continue with the same issue.

21        Q.   Mr. Batinic, were you aware that negotiations went on in Geneva

22     in January 1993 and that an agreement or a joint statement was issued

23     signed both by Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban on the cessation of

24     hostilities between the BH army and the HVO?

25        A.   Yes, I was aware of the Geneva negotiations.

Page 34421

 1        Q.   Will you now look at document P 01329, which is the next

 2     document.  It is the joint statement by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mate

 3     Boban, signed in Geneva, when they are ordering that fighting between the

 4     BH army and the HVO be stopped immediately.  They call on the Croats and

 5     Muslims to give their full support.  And in number 2:  "Commanders of the

 6     BH army Main Staff and the HVO Main Staff..."  May I just read it out

 7     until the end? " ... must immediately determine the responsibility for

 8     the outbreak of the fighting at all levels and form a Joint Command

 9     without delay."

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the Prosecutor.

12     Microphone.

13             MS. MOE:  Sorry.  Thank you.  Before counsel and the witness goes

14     into this document, the question asked right before the document was

15     shown to the witness actually had two portions:  1, "Were you aware that

16     negotiations went on in Geneva in January 1993..."  which the witness

17     answered, I believe; and "Were you aware that an agreement or a joint

18     statement was issued signed by..." et cetera, and I do not think that

19     that part of the question was answered.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Nozica.  Please ask

21     the witness to specify whether he was aware of the agreement or not.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I think if

23     we show the witness the document, he will give us the same answer as he

24     has said up to now.  He will tell us that he hadn't seen the document.

25     So my question is whether he was aware of the joint statement or not.

Page 34422

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We heard on the radio that such a

 2     joint statement was signed by Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Batinic, let me now ask you about your own knowledge.  We see

 5     that such a statement was signed and an order issued to the Main Staff of

 6     the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Main Staff of the HVO as early as

 7     the 27th of January, 1993, to immediately cease hostilities and to

 8     establish the course of the conflict.

 9             Were you aware that the HVO did endeavour for the conflict to be

10     ended by negotiation as soon as possible which the HVO had not provoked?

11     Did you know that the BH army and the army leadership was opposed to the

12     peaceful settlement of things and that actually in those days there were

13     already plans to attack the HVO in the entire area where the HVO was

14     situated and that the army from this time on wanted to resolve the set-up

15     or the structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina by war and not by peaceful means?

16        A.   I have to say that I didn't have any such knowledge, but if I

17     may, a couple of sentences related to this statement and our

18     municipality.

19             On the 27th of January, 1993, the Croatian Defence Council

20     endeavoured to cease hostilities, and there were no serious attacks by

21     the HVO.  In other words, the HVO -- had the HVO had a plan or desire to

22     take the HVO, they could have chased them out by throwing stones at them.

23        Q.   You mean the BH army could have been chased out in this period or

24     even before this period that the statement refers to?

25        A.   The statement is dated the 27th of January.  Yes, but even before

Page 34423

 1     this period the HVO had control of all the more important elevations

 2     around Gornji Vakuf.

 3        Q.   But I asked you something quite different, not about the

 4     behaviour of the HVO.

 5        A.   No.  I was -- I told you, I'm not aware of the plans and

 6     intentions of officers of the BH army, whether they were ready to

 7     implement this joint statement on non-aggression and truce.  I just said

 8     that this was the intention of the HVO as confirmed by the situation

 9     before this date.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'll show you the following document so that we can

11     confirm something you yourself said.  It's 2D 00 --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

13             I have a question I would like to put to you with regard to this

14     last document and in relation to the document that was examined a while

15     ago.  P 1102, if I'm not mistaken.

16             The last document signed by Boban and Zeljkovic [phoen] shows

17     three things, first of all.  There's the combat between the ABiH and the

18     HVO, and in fact, it goes to the benefit of the aggressor, to the Serbs.

19     That's how we should understand it.

20             The second thing is that the commanders of the ABiH and the HVO

21     are asked to determine immediately who is responsible for the fight at

22     all levels.  So both parties are asked to determine who started the

23     attack.

24             And then the third item, Boban and Izetbegovic inviting people to

25     set up a Joint Command.

Page 34424

 1             When one has a look at this document, a reasonable Judge could

 2     believe that Mr. Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic were discovering that there

 3     had been fighting ongoing, but when we see the first document, when we

 4     have a look at the first document, the 12th of January report from the

 5     Ante Starcevic Brigade, which seems to show that the ABiH launched an

 6     attack, because we see that there were 3.000 ABiH men in the field when

 7     we make the calculations.  So in your opinion, wouldn't there be someone

 8     who is not telling the truth, in particular with regard to the 11th of

 9     January attack?  What is your opinion, you personally?  What do you think

10     about this as you were on the ground, Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday I said that

12     I didn't know how the conflict on the 11th of January started; and today,

13     I said that on the 12th of January the places referred to in this report

14     from the Ante Starcevic Brigade to the HVO, well, it's a fact that the

15     places mentioned here correspond to the way in which these places were

16     inhabited by certain peoples.  How many ABiH men there were in these

17     inhabited places is not something that I can confirm.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the 11th of January, in your

19     opinion, is it the ABiH that attacks the HVO or not?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who attacked whom on

21     the 11th of January, 1993.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.

23             Ms. Nozica, you have used up almost 30 minutes.  According to my

24     calculations, each team should have 24 minutes, so someone must have

25     given you some time.

Page 34425

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, we haven't shared out our time.

 2     I'll finish with this document now.  I'm surprised the fact that I've

 3     used so much time.  I'll conclude with this document, 2D 00207.  It's a

 4     document I asked the witness to have a look at.

 5             Yes, Your Honours.  I'd just like to tell you that I was told

 6     that only three Defence teams will have cross-examination.  That means

 7     three Defence teams have 40 minutes, so I'm within the limits of my time.

 8        Q.   Sir, have you found the document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I asked you a question, and you said that you didn't know what

11     the plans of the ABiH were.  This document is dated the 20th of January.

12     You said that you knew that were ongoing negotiations in Geneva and this

13     document was signed by Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic.  It's addressed to

14     the Command of the Bugojno Defence headquarters.  I'll read it out to

15     you:

16             "We appreciate your thoughts and suggestions, but we would like

17     to draw your attention to the execution of the tasks within the zone of

18     responsibility.  Do not engage in work that is not in your sphere of

19     responsibility.  Write reports so that they reflect the combat situation

20     and not so as to give political lessons."

21             And then it says:  "It's premature for clashes in all the cities

22     of the HZ HB, even though this is a possibility that has been

23     anticipated."

24             And then the last sentence:  "Try to do all you can and help

25     Vakuf."

Page 34426

 1             We're talking about the 20th of January, so this was later on

 2     when you had already joined the HVO.  Did you have any information

 3     according to which HVO units from Bugojno had come to assist ABiH units

 4     in Gornji Vakuf [as interpreted]?

 5        A.   Yes.  ABiH units from Bugojno participated in the combat against

 6     the HVO in the area of the Gornji Vakuf municipality.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That would

 8     be all.  I have now concluded my cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  And now

10     for the following Defence team.

11             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  I

12     thought my colleague Ms. Alaburic was going to cross-examine.

13     Mr. Praljak has some questions for this witness given his military

14     knowledge; and in particular, because in the examination-in-chief these

15     were matters addressed, we'd like to use this witness to check up on

16     information on the deployment of forces on the front facing the Serbs.

17     With your leave, Mr. Praljak would like to put these questions to the

18     witness.

19             Yesterday in the transcript with regard to the event of the 11th

20     of January, 1993, well, this event was mentioned on page 26, and that

21     subject was again addressed by my colleague Senka.  There was a

22     discussion about locations, about Defence lines on pages 40 and 44, and

23     the map was entered, IC 00878.

24             MS. MOE:  Excuse me.  I didn't mean to interrupt counsel, but

25     just a clarification with the transcript maybe before we go into the new

Page 34427

 1     cross-examination by a new Defence team.

 2             The latest exchange between Counsel Nozica and the witness

 3     referred to, on page 52, line 11:  "Did you have any information

 4     according to which HVO units from Bugojno had come to assist ABiH units

 5     in Gornji Vakuf?"  And I was wondering if that was a translation error or

 6     if it's correct that the question would be as to HVO assisting ABiH.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you clear this

 8     up or not?

 9             MS. MOE:  Sorry, the page number was wrong, I believe.  It's 57.

10     57, 12, I believe, is where the sentence should be.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I understood

12     the question from Ms. Sokolovic [as interpreted], well, she asked me

13     whether the forces of the ABiH from the municipality of Bugojno had

14     assisted the ABiH forces in the conflict in the month of January in

15     Gornji Vakuf.  I confirmed that because we had a lot of information to

16     this effect.  Forces from the ABiH, from the area of Bugojno municipality

17     participated in the January conflict in an active manner in fighting in

18     the area of Gornji Vakuf against the forces of the HVO.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

20     like to thank my colleague.  I think that's how I put the question.

21     Obviously, there was a mistake in the transcript.  Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Praljak, you

23     have the floor since we're dealing with military matters here.

24             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

Page 34428

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Batinic.

 2        A.   Good day, General.

 3        Q.   Is it true to say that we know each other from that time in

 4     Gornji Vakuf, in Uskoplje?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Tell me, before we start dealing with maps, what does the word

 7     "Vakuf" mean?

 8        A.   Vakuf is a religious or humanitarian association that has to

 9     serve Islam or Islamists, that simple.

10        Q.   According to your information, apart from the upper part of Vakuf

11     and the lower part of Vakuf, is it true to say that it was a kind of

12     contract in which the inhabitants of the place at the time of the

13     Osmanlijes had to work for religious purposes?

14        A.   That's correct.  In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are several

15     Vakufs, or there were several Vakufs.  There was Gornji Vakuf; there was

16     Donji Vakuf, Skender Vakuf, Herze [phoen] Vakuf.  I won't go on.

17        Q.   And today, you live in the area now.  Do we have two names for

18     the place, Uskoplje and Vakuf Gornja?

19        A.   Yes.  The High Representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina decided on

20     the 1st of October, 1991 -- 2001, that the municipality would officially

21     be called Gornji Vakuf-Uskoplje.

22        Q.   Since we're dealing with this matter, does this also apply to

23     Prozor-Rama?

24        A.   Yes, but with the case of Prozor-Rama the decision was taken

25     earlier.

Page 34429

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let's clarify something since this question was put.

 2     What does the coat of arms and the flag of the Federation of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina look like today?  My question is, does it also contain the

 4     historical coat of arms of the Croatian people, the red and white

 5     checker-board?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you explain for the sake of the Chamber what the flag of the

 8     Central Bosnian county looks like, the county you live in?  Does that

 9     flag contain the historical coat of arms of the Croatian people?

10        A.   Well, I'm not sure how I could describe the coat of arms of the

11     county of Central Bosnia, but the coat of arms and the flag for Central

12     Bosnia are a political compromise between the Croats and the Muslims, and

13     it contains a symbol that shows that the Croatian people live in the area

14     too.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's have a look at the maps and

16     photographs now.  Number 3D 03250.  They will help us --

17        A.   General, could you repeat that?

18        Q.   3D 03250.  It's not a problem.  We'll find them now.  3D 03250.

19     It says 3D 37-0428.  That's what it says at the top.  That's the first

20     one.  It was a photograph from Podova.  Have you found it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You're familiar with this.  We'll get through it quickly.  As a

23     result, we have certain photographs here taken from the Podovi location -

24     that's what it says - and we have Voljice, Gaj, and Jagnjid.  Is this map

25     correct?

Page 34430

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Let's have a look at the following page.  The

 3     following page, 3D, and then instead of 28 at the end, we have 29 at the

 4     end.  This is a place that you have marked as the location of the

 5     repeater.  It's above the town of Vakuf itself.  It's an elevation.  Can

 6     you see that elevation?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   Here we have photographs that were taken this year, last summer.

 9     These are the ruins of a bunker that are still -- that are still there.

10             My question is as follows:  Before the conflict broke out in

11     January 1993, as far as you know, did the ABiH set up bunkers at all the

12     important elevations around the town of Uskoplje itself?

13        A.   Yes, they did.  With your leave, I'll say that this happened for

14     the first time on the 20th of June, 1993 [as interpreted], in the

15     afternoon.

16        Q.   Mr. Batinic, do you know that --

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If you excuse me.  Mr. Batinic, it's surprising

18     that you can choose the exact time.  Can you explain why you know so

19     exactly that it was the 20th of June in the afternoon?  Have you been

20     directly involved or ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the 20th of June,

22     1992, a meeting was held in the Radusa Hotel, a meeting chaired by

23     Mr. Muhamed Palalic and myself.  We both chaired the meeting.  And when

24     the meeting came to an end, about 1400 hours, and when I went home for

25     lunch, my brother stopped me in front of the hotel.  He pointed to an

Page 34431

 1     elevation called Zvizde, and he said, "You're discussing things with them

 2     in a normal manner.  You're functioning in a normal manner.  Why are they

 3     digging trenches?"

 4             On the 20th of June, 1992, members of the TO dug a trench on

 5     Zvizde.  This position was facing the town.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  What is striking is that in your

 7     earlier answer, which is on page 61, line 23, you said it was the 20th of

 8     June, 1993.

 9             MR. KOVACIC:  The defendants are not having the translation.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Oh, I'm sorry.

11             MR. KOVACIC:  And besides, Your Honour --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry.  Technical problem.

13             MR. KOVACIC:  -- there was an error in transcript.  I followed.

14     The witness said 1992, but it was 1993.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  Although this is not sworn, I take your

16     testimony to be the full truth.  Thank you.

17             Then my intervention is not of such interest in that case that it

18     is worth going back and answering.  So it's 1992.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.

19             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Batinic, are you testifying -- or I have another question in

21     connection with the trenches.  Are you aware that after this, after they

22     started digging trenches, on several occasions there were discussions,

23     and especially in December 1992, between the commander of the HVO for

24     Gornji Vakuf and the commander of the ABiH in Uskoplje that these

25     trenches should be filled in and that they have no military meaning in

Page 34432

 1     view of the positions towards the Serb forces?

 2        A.   That resulted from the incident between the 24th and 25th of

 3     October, 1992; and from then until December, those trenches remained

 4     unfilled.

 5        Q.   So do you agree with the map that you are looking at now?  So

 6     this is a photograph towards Gornji Vakuf.  Can you testify to the

 7     correctness of this map and the photographs?

 8        A.   Yes.  The map corresponds to the actual situation on the ground.

 9     From my own house I can see clearly, which is about 300 metres as the

10     crow flies, the remnant of these trenches with concrete in them.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Will you please turn to the next page.  It is -0430.

12     And look at the military map first.  There are three red arrows.  So we

13     are now facing from the repeater, the position of the repeater facing the

14     other side, and we're taking photographs of a locality called Mackovac

15     and these slopes towards the ski-runs.  Does this correspond to the

16     reality?

17        A.   Yes, from Mackovac via Kuk towards the area where the relay was.

18        Q.   Now look at the photograph at the bottom of the picture.  You can

19     see remains of the trenches, and we know how many trenches there were

20     around Vakuf and how good they were in quality.

21        A.   I heard about these trenches from members of the HVO, and this

22     happened much later after the war that these trenches were very well

23     fortified [as interpreted].

24        Q.   We can go on to the next map, again, 3D 370431.  It is the next

25     page.  Again, it's 3D 03250, and the page is 3D 370431.  0431.  So I just

Page 34433

 1     have the following question:  In your view, the photograph that we see on

 2     the top, was it taken from the position of the repeater?  It seems rather

 3     far removed, but tell me what you have already said, whether the --

 4     whoever controlled the repeater and the rest of this hill, was he able to

 5     have control over the entire town of Uskoplje and especially the road

 6     from Rama via Uskoplje to Bugojno and further on?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So the question again, if --

 9             MS. MOE:  Thank you.  I see there is --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor.

11             MS. MOE:  [Previous translation continues]... that I have on my

12     screen, but it's in B/C/S, and I can't see a translation.  Could we have

13     that read out, please.

14             MR. KOVACIC:  There is a translation in the same file.  You

15     should see it.  And, Your Honour... [Interpretation] While I'm on my

16     feet, on page 64 in the witness's answer, 3, 4, 5, maybe there's an error

17     in the transcript.  The answer has not been properly recorded.

18             According to the transcript, he heard about those trenches from

19     members of the HVO, and this happened much later after the war, that

20     these trenches were very well fortified.  He said that he heard about

21     this after the war that the trenches were well fortified at the time;

22     whereas according to the transcript, it would appear that the trenches

23     were fortified after the war.  Maybe the witness could clarify this, when

24     he heard about those trenches.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Praljak, can you ask

Page 34434

 1     the witness to clarify, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can.

 3        Q.   Mr. Batinic, tell us, when did you learn or did you know that

 4     there were constant talks, and these were particular intensified in

 5     December 1992, about the fact that the ABiH army had dug trenches at all

 6     the important elevation points in town and around the town and the HVO

 7     demanded that these trenches be filled in because they are a threat to

 8     the HVO, whereas the lines of the common enemy were five or six

 9     kilometres away towards Radusko?  Did you have any knowledge of this?

10        A.   Yes, I did, General.  This was discussed, and I said that after

11     the incident of October, the 24th, 25th of October, there were trenches

12     dug around town, and the representatives of the HVO demanded and

13     requested from the representatives of the command of the ABiH that these

14     trenches be filled in.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Look, now, at the next page.  I don't have to give

16     you the numbers.  You will see a marking saying the Partisan cemetery.

17     The photograph was taken from the position of the repeater and the

18     confrontation line between the HVO and the ABiH going towards the west.

19     Is this the correct position that -- of the Partisan cemetery?

20        A.   Yes, it is the exact location of the Partisan cemetery or Glavica

21     as we call it, which is at a lower elevation than the relay station.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the next image, please.  I wish to point out

23     that these photographs were taken last summer, and it says:  "From the

24     top of the repeater in the direction of the Partisan cemetery, along the

25     whole ridge there were shelters in the third degree, and some were even

Page 34435

 1     built and cemented."

 2             So these are photographs taken 16 years later.  My question,

 3     again, is, if not at the time, did you know after the truce that one of

 4     the main thing was to fill in the trenches, to separate the forces, and

 5     that these trenches were fortified in a highly professional manner?

 6        A.   I did not visit these locations, but from members of the HVO

 7     after the cessation of hostilities, I heard how well-fortified the

 8     positions of the ABiH were at the elevation point that you're referring

 9     to; and long after the war, hunters would make similar comments as they

10     moved around these areas.

11        Q.   Mr. Batinic, please look at the next photograph.  It was taken

12     from the position of the Partisan cemetery.  Does this correspond to your

13     own geographic knowledge of the town you live in?  Is this correct?  So

14     it's from the Partisan cemetery towards the repeater and towards

15     Uskoplje.  According to your own topographic knowledge, would you agree

16     that the repeater has full control of the entire area of Uskoplje?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   We will move on quickly now.  Please look at the next photograph

19     of the town.  The photograph was taken last summer.  So will you just

20     tell me in view of the fact that you are familiar with your town, do

21     these photographs correspond to the reality in your town?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Let us move on to the next photograph.  We here see the ski-runs,

24     the Partisan cemetery or Glavica as you call it.  Is this a photograph

25     that has been correctly marked?

Page 34436

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Again, we see the ski-runs on the next photograph; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   On the next photograph, we see the elevation of the Partisan

 6     cemetery in relation to the town of Uskoplje; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, then, we have photographs of the remains of the bunkers,

 9     which shows that they were fortified with concrete elements.  Look at all

10     the photographs one after another, one, two, three, four.  I'll give you

11     the numbers.  We have to give you the numbers.  Let's look at photographs

12     number 3D 37-439.  Do you see that?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   Not this one.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I have a question.  I have a question on this.

16             Witness, have you ever seen this?  Have you been there?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, Your Honour, that the first

18     trench that was fortified next to the repeater is something I can see

19     from my own house every day, but I didn't see all the others because I

20     never went to see them.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I -- I see a couple of broken concrete pieces

22     that could be fallen columns or a wall or whatever.  How can you say this

23     is a bunker -- or was a bunker?  Could it not be the ruins of a house,

24     for instance?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 200 to 250 metres

Page 34437

 1     below this bunker that we see now was my own position at the beginning of

 2     the January conflict as a member of the armed forces of the HVO.  I know

 3     very well how they acted from this area where the repeater was, and then

 4     they also built a strong -- stronghold there, and that is why I know.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Praljak.

 6             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel,

 7     we will be having witnesses on this issue who actually saw this, but no

 8     houses are allowed around the repeater, anyway.  I just wish to tender

 9     these photographs.

10        Q.   Let's go on to the next photograph, which is 0440.  440.  Next

11     one, please.  I will leave out the other photographs.  There's no need to

12     burden you with these.  We'll stop with the photographs there.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a small

14     question of a technical nature.  The picture that we see, which according

15     to Mr. Praljak is a former bunker, I am surprised not to see any metal

16     reinforcements.  How can you explain that?  Or maybe at the time there

17     were no metal rods.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the general said that

19     this photograph was taken last year, so 14 and a half years after the

20     conflict which occurred in Gornji Vakuf.  At this location, I can confirm

21     that the TV relay or repeater was situated with equipment to monitor the

22     TV signal of Bosnia-Herzegovina television.

23             After the combat operations and after the HVO gained control of

24     these elevation points, the repeater was destroyed and the remaining iron

25     rods were collected by people who wanted to sell them.  They could be

Page 34438

 1     sold for a good price in those days.

 2             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour

 3     Judge Antonetti, this flat area has elements of a good structure.

 4             Let's look at the last photograph, 0445, please.

 5        Q.   Witness, look at the road down there.  Can you see in the

 6     forefront?  This was taken this year, this summer, not last year, the

 7     remains of a bunker facing a road.  Can you see the road down there?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   From this bunker or one of these bunkers, is it possible to have

10     full control of the road leading from Uskoplje to Rama?

11        A.   Yes, because it is some 300 metres as the crow flies away.

12        Q.   Could we now -- can we now show Mr. Batinic a map, the number of

13     which is 3D 00464.  3D 00464.

14             Mr. Batinic, I'm sorry it's so small.  It's not very clear, and

15     that's not good, but I have the map here, so -- you have the map.  Good.

16     Well, have a look at it.  Naturally, you weren't in the brigade command.

17     You weren't in the command of the operative zone, and I don't think you

18     can know everything about this.  But here in red, you have the positions

19     of the ABiH and of the HVO, the positions facing the army of Republika

20     Srpska.  That's how we'll call it.  These are the red lines and the

21     circles that you can see.

22             So has this been correctly depicted, the line towards Bugojno and

23     Uskoplje and further on?

24        A.   I really am not familiar with these topographic maps, but if this

25     represents the defence line on the Radusa mountain from Idovac, from the

Page 34439

 1     area of Rama and of Raduski Kamen and then down towards Bugojno, then

 2     yes.

 3        Q.   That's what it says here.  It says Raduski Kamen and Idovac and

 4     so on and so forth.  That's correct.  Have a look at this map, now, where

 5     we can see the lines of contact between the HVO and the ABiH around

 6     Uskoplje and in Uskoplje after the conflict had broken out.  As far as

 7     you know, given the villages you are familiar with, after the conflict

 8     broke out, would these be the lines?  Green is for the ABiH and red for

 9     HVO.

10        A.   General, I apologise, but I can't see the inhabited places here.

11     Perhaps you could help me.  Perhaps you could mention some place names.

12        Q.   Well, yes.  You would need a magnifying glass.  Unfortunately, I

13     didn't bring one with me.

14             Have a look at the area around the repeater and the continuation

15     here.  In this area, did the ABiH have previously fortified positions as

16     far as you know?

17        A.   From the beginning of this mountain and up towards the repeater

18     and when you look in the direction of Rama or Pidris, yes, that was the

19     case.

20        Q.   Tell me one more thing.  Do you know that on the road from

21     Bugojno to Travnik there was a Mujahadin camp?  Did people discuss this?

22     Did you have any information about this?

23        A.   Unfortunately, according to the information that I had when the

24     HVO lost Bugojno and when they left Bugojno, Ravno Rostovo, a position

25     between Bugojno and Novi Travnik, there was a motel, and the Mujahadin

Page 34440

 1     were located there, and according to certain information, strange things

 2     would happen there.

 3        Q.   Do you perhaps remember that at one point in time they

 4     captured -- I apologise.

 5             MS. MOE:  I'm asking for time specifics on this.  That goes both

 6     to the question and the answer relating to Mujahadin.  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   My first question:  Do you know that in the conflict in January,

 9     the conflict between the ABiH and the HVO in Uskoplje, there was a

10     Mujahadin camp in Ravno Rostovo?

11        A.   Yes, I heard about that.

12        Q.   In January 1993, do you perhaps know that at that very same

13     check-point when going to talk to the ABiH, a Croatian military

14     delegation was disarmed with the deputy chief of the Main Staff, a

15     Colonel Mangric [phoen]?  They were stripped, looted, and they had to

16     continue towards Bugojno while naked.

17        A.   I heard about that later on, but at the time I didn't know about

18     it.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.

20             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we have an IC -- but

21     it's a 3D, so it's not necessary.

22        Q.   A few more questions.  Tell me the following:  The shelling of

23     the Serbs, did this take place before the conflict that broke out between

24     the Armija and the HVO in January 1993?

25        A.   Yes.  They started shelling our municipality on the 15th of

Page 34441

 1     August, 1992.  They launched the first eight shells.

 2        Q.   So they started this in 1992.  Is it true that they killed the

 3     civilians, too, and they --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the -- could Mr. Praljak please repeat

 5     the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Praljak is kindly asked to repeat the

 8     question.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of the conflict in

10     1992 --

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.  Stop, stop, stop, stop.

12     We must go back.  The question of Mr. Praljak should be repeated, and

13     then we go on because the interpretation then stopped.  So if you would

14     like, kindly repeat your question.

15             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Batinic, my question is as follows:  When the Serbian forces

17     started shelling Uskoplje -- well, first of all, did they do that?  When

18     did they do that?  When shelling Uskoplje, were there civilian victims as

19     well?  Were buildings that supplied electricity destroyed and so on and

20     so forth?  Tell us everything you know about this.

21        A.   On the 15th of August, 1992, in the evening hours the first eight

22     shells were launched from Serbian guns from the area of Kupres or from

23     Mali and Veliki Siver, as our soldiers called it.  They fell on the

24     Croatian part of town or, as I said, that's how they greeted -- they

25     celebrated Assumption for us.  From the 15th of August onwards, they

Page 34442

 1     sporadically shelled between 12 to 40 shells on the territory of the

 2     municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

 3             In January when a clash broke out between the ABiH and the HVO,

 4     the Serbs shelled the area more frequently, and sometime at the very

 5     beginning of the conflict some of their shells completely destroyed the

 6     main stations for supplying Gornji Vakuf with electricity.

 7             About the 20th of January, 1993, from that date onwards we didn't

 8     have electricity anymore in the entire area of the municipality of Gornji

 9     Vakuf.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Batinic.  You said that in the conflict in

11     January, as far as you can remember, the HVO on the 22nd of January took

12     control of the elevations that had previously been taken by the ABiH.

13     You said that there were no more attacks on the town.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'm now about to conclude.  Let's go back to July

16     1993.

17             Is it correct to say that in the second half of July 1993, from

18     the 15th onwards, the ABiH attacked the HVO in Bugojno?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As far as you know, how many civilians from Bugojno and how many

21     HVO soldiers passed through Uskoplje in the direction of Rama around the

22     23rd, 4th, 5th of July, 1993?

23        A.   Several thousand.

24        Q.   Tell me, sir, on that occasion did the ABiH continue to advance

25     in the direction of Uskoplje?

Page 34443

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then on to Pavic Polje.  Naturally, they wanted to reach

 3     Makljen and go further.

 4             According to the information you have, was there fierce fighting

 5     in that area at that time?

 6        A.   Yes.  On the -- well, with regard to the HVO, Bugojno lost about

 7     the 20th of July, 1993, lost a lot, and from that day onwards the ABiH

 8     forces tried to take territory or areas in Gornji Vakuf where Croats

 9     lived.

10        Q.   Please, we have a problem when we say the 20th of 6th.  It's --

11        A.   The 26th of July, 1993.

12        Q.   That's right.  Thank you.  Now let's go back to the 31st and the

13     1st and so on.

14             According to your information, was there complete breakdown of

15     all the defence lines of the HVO in the town of Vakuf, in Uskoplje and

16     around?

17        A.   80 per cent of the defence lines of the HVO on the evening

18     between the 31st of July and the 1st of August were broken.  These lines

19     were lost, in fact.

20        Q.   Is it true to say that the people and the soldiers started

21     withdrawing in the direction of Rama on a massive scale?

22        A.   Unfortunately, that's true.

23        Q.   Do you know that a number of people burnt their own houses?

24     Croats did that.  They killed their livestock, et cetera, when leaving

25     that area?

Page 34444

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know that at the time I was in the area?

 3        A.   We saw each other, Mr. General, on the 1st of August in town.

 4        Q.   Is it correct to say that on the 1st of August we managed to

 5     retake all the lines?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Because I was a little boastful, is it true to say that I took

 8     the remainder of the troops back on a tank?

 9        A.   From Pidris, yes.

10        Q.   What is not yet clear is what Croats, and religious Croats in

11     particular, mean when they say "Assumption."  What is this?

12        A.   Well, the Croatian Catholics in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

13     throughout the world have a number of religious festivals which they

14     celebrate, Christmas, Easter, and Assumption before all.

15        Q.   My last question.  At the repeater, there were two things.  It

16     was possible to broadcast the signal of TV Sarajevo 1 and TV Sarajevo 2.

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Did the HVO ask that the part of the repeater broadcasting TV

19     Sarajevo 2, which wasn't being broadcast anymore, did they ask for that

20     part of the repeater to be used so that the Croatian programme in Zagreb

21     could be watched?

22        A.   Yes, and that's the conclusion adopted by the Executive

23     Committee.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Batinic.  I wish you a safe trip home.

25             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 34445

 1     That concludes my examination.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Praljak.  We

 3     will now have our 20-minute break.  Mr. Scott, you're on your feet.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, and I'll be very brief, and you should

 5     know for the record I'm not taking anyone's time in saying this.  But I

 6     will make the Prosecution's periodic objection and observation that I

 7     await the day, I await the day when anyone will be able to explain to me

 8     that that was cross-examination.  We continue to object to this

 9     procedure.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll have our

11     20-minute break.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just a technical issue.

16     I thought I would handle it right now before we lose track of time.

17     Today, we submitted an amended IC list for the witness Zelenika, and we

18     added one document IC 00863.  So that's just to -- for technical

19     purposes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

21     Ms. Alaburic.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the same sort

23     of thing to say.  The Petkovic Defence also submitted an annex to the

24     formal list of exhibits shown to the witness Mirko Zelenika.  The extra

25     document concerns a map, and IC number is 00862.  Thank you very much.

Page 34446

 1     And if I could continue immediately, since it's my turn to cross-examine

 2     the witness.  I would first of all like to greet the Chamber, everyone

 3     else in the courtroom.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] And you, Mr. Batinic.  My name is Vesna

 6     Alaburic --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Concerning the initial list

 9     submitted by the Prlic Defence team, it shall be given Exhibit number IC

10     00879, and the supplementary list submitted by the Petkovic Defence team

11     shall be given Exhibit number IC 00880.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

13        Q.   Mr. Batinic, my name is Vesna Alaburic.  I'm a lawyer from

14     Zagreb, and I am defending General Milivoj Petkovic in this trial.

15             Could you first inform the Chamber whether we know each other?

16     Have we ever spoken to each other before today, participate in your

17     proofing for this testimony?

18        A.   I don't know you from before, Ms. Alaburic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Batinic, could you clarify something for us,

20     something that I thought was not sufficiently clear?  When answering a

21     question put to you by my colleague Karnavas about removing check-points

22     in villages, the honourable Judge Trechsel then put a question to you and

23     asked you why those check-points in the villages had been removed.  You

24     answered that the reason was to make it possible for people to move

25     around freely in the area of Gornji Vakuf, but you said that three

Page 34447

 1     check-points were to remain at the entrance to Gornji Vakuf.  Now, this

 2     was entered into the transcript on page 11.  Do you remember that answer?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What is unclear to me in your answer is the following:  If the

 5     check-points in villages were removed to make it possible for people to

 6     move around freely in the area of Gornji Vakuf, the question remains:

 7     What was the purpose of the three check-points at the entrance to Gornji

 8     Vakuf?  Someone could draw the conclusion that those check-points

 9     remained there to prevent people from moving around freely, and perhaps

10     one might think that the check-points were there for security reasons.

11     So, Mr. Batinic, could you please clarify the matter for us?

12        A.   It's very simple.  Before there were any incidents in Gornji

13     Vakuf municipality, the HVO and the TO - I'm talking about the armed

14     forces - had joint check-points at entrances or access routes to the town

15     and municipality of Gornji Vakuf.  The check-point from the direction of

16     Bugojno in Gornji Vakuf municipality area was in the Humac settlement,

17     which is about ten kilometres from the actual town of Gornji Vakuf.  The

18     check-point from the direction of Novi Travnik towards the direction

19     of -- the entrance to settlements in the area of the municipality of

20     Gornji Vakuf was in the settlement of Bistrica -- or, rather, it

21     controlled the entrance from the canyon of the Bistrik River, from the

22     entrance to Gornji Vakuf; and the check-point from Prozor at the entrance

23     to Gornji Vakuf at the very entrance of Gornji Vakuf was also a joint

24     check-point.

25             Our order had to do with removing check-points inside settlements

Page 34448

 1     in the very municipality of Gornji Vakuf, which is where you had a

 2     settlement where the majority were Muslims, and then you had one

 3     settlement where the Croats were in the majority, and that's how it went

 4     on, in an alternate manner.  These check-points had to be removed, but

 5     the three main check-points, well, they were used to control entrance and

 6     exit of any individuals to and from the area of our municipality.  And

 7     also, it was to prevent conscripts from leaving the municipality if they

 8     didn't have certificates from the TO, the HVO, and the public security

 9     station.

10        Q.   Tell me, at these three main check-points, were soldiers from the

11     HVO and the ABiH, did they act in the same way towards Muslims and

12     Croats, or was there discrimination on a national basis?

13        A.   They didn't behave in a different manner.  They treated them in

14     an identical manner.

15        Q.   You mentioned military conscripts, and we have seen a document

16     that concerns military conscripts.  I'll have a question about this for

17     you.  Perhaps you know the answer, perhaps not.

18             In Gornji Vakuf, was there a record of military conscripts which

19     included young men regardless of their ethnic origin, or were various

20     kinds of records kept for military conscripts?  Tell me if you know.

21        A.   Before the war in Gornji Vakuf, we just had one single record of

22     military conscripts.  The secretary for national defence kept these

23     records.  At the beginning of the very war, the list of military

24     conscripts recognised by the operational headquarters of the Croatian

25     people, which was founded by decision of the Crisis Staff of the HDZ for

Page 34449

 1     the municipality of Gornji Vakuf, well, had its own list of Croatian

 2     military conscripts, and the SDA had a list of its own conscripts -- or,

 3     rather, the Patriotic League also had such a list.

 4        Q.   Let us now go back for a moment to this road.  Was Gornji Vakuf

 5     an important communication place, or was Gornji Vakuf insignificant in

 6     terms of communications?

 7        A.   Depending on the viewpoint.  For us, it was an important

 8     transport location in view of the fact that from Gornji Vakuf you could

 9     go to Central Bosnia and towards the south to Herzegovina.  So the

10     Bugojno-Gornji Vakuf-Prozor road going on to Jablanica and Mostar, and on

11     the other hand, Gornji Vakuf-Bugojno-Travnik, and so on.

12        Q.   I would now like to show you a part of the statement of a witness

13     who was a British soldier in the UNPROFOR unit deployed in Gornji Vakuf.

14     The page is 8468 of the transcript, and he said:  "Who controls Gornji

15     Vakuf also controls the entire approach to that part of Bosnia."

16             Would you agree with this statement of his?

17        A.   No.  But viewed from the south towards Bosnia, from Herzegovina

18     towards Bosnia, this area of Gornji Vakuf viewed geographically is in

19     Bosnia, and the neighbouring municipality of Rama is already in

20     Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Tell me, from Mostar towards Bugojno, could there any other --

22     was there any other way to reach it except via Gornji Vakuf?

23        A.   Yes, via Kupres, but at that time Kupres was occupied.

24        Q.   We're talking about the possibilities at that time.  After the

25     occupation of Kupres, could one reach Bugojno in any other way except via

Page 34450

 1     Gornji Vakuf?

 2        A.   Not, no.

 3        Q.   Tell me, could you reach Novi Travnik and Travnik from Mostar

 4     without passing through Gornji Vakuf?

 5        A.   As far as I know, no.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you now as a man who is local to Gornji Vakuf.  This

 7     same British soldier, in answer to a question from Judge Antonetti about

 8     the possibility of having control over particular areas, said that even

 9     if the HVO would have the control of the road from Gornji Vakuf towards

10     Bugojno or Prozor, it would not be sufficiently important unless he had

11     control of the localities close to the road, and he mentioned the names

12     Uzricje, Hrasnica, Zdrimci, because the army that was in those villages

13     and has visual communication with these roads could hinder movement along

14     that road.  Let me repeat the names of the villages which are mentioned

15     in the transcript.  Uzricje, the villages of Uzricje, Hrasnica - Hrasnica

16     - and Zdrimci, on page 8474 of the transcript.

17             Tell me, Mr. Batinic, according to your knowledge of the area, is

18     this statement true or not?

19        A.   It is partly true.

20        Q.   Tell me, which part of it is true and which is not?

21        A.   Uzricje is at least a kilometre away from the road Gornji

22     Vakuf-Bugojno or Gornji Vakuf-Prozor.  Hrasnica leans on the Gornji

23     Vakuf-Bugojno road, and Zdrimci is at least 500 metres away from the

24     road, from the Gornji Vakuf-Prozor road.  And I must note that from

25     Zdrimci, the road could be controlled from the elevation point Babe

Page 34451

 1     [phoen].

 2        Q.   There's no dispute those villages are not on the road.  They are

 3     removed from the road.

 4        A.   I'm sorry.  This road could not be controlled from Uzricje in any

 5     possible way.

 6        Q.   Could another important road be controlled from Uzricje?

 7        A.   Yes.  From the Croatian part of Gornji Vakuf, there is a forest

 8     road which passes through Uzricje going to Mackovac or Pidris.

 9        Q.   Tell me, this side road, was it very important for Prozor-Gornji

10     Vakuf communication in the event that the ABiH could prevent

11     communication from Mackovac towards Gornji Vakuf and Bugojno?  In other

12     words, could this side-road be used to reach Gornji Vakuf?

13        A.   If the Prozor-Vakuf road is blocked, then the only way to reach

14     Mackovac and Pidris from Gornji Vakuf would be the road going through

15     Uzricje.

16        Q.   Very well.  That was what I expected you to tell us.

17             Could we now have a look at the first conflict, which happened on

18     the 20th of June, 1992.  You spoke at length about this conflict.  It is

19     the conflict in June.  We've also seen a number of documents from that

20     period when the Presidency of Gornji Vakuf issued orders to both the HVO

21     and the TO.  Do you remember those documents and the discussions about

22     this?

23        A.   Yes, I do, very well.

24        Q.   Tell me, is it right to believe that those documents show that in

25     those days in 1992 the HVO fully cooperated with the ABiH and that they

Page 34452

 1     functioned as the joint armed force of Bosnia-Herzegovina, if I can put

 2     it that way, or could those documents be given some other meaning?

 3        A.   There's no other meaning.  The HVO and the Territorial Defence --

 4     or, rather, the armed forces of these two components acted in a

 5     coordinated fashion along the defence lines against the Serb aggressor,

 6     and they cooperated well.

 7        Q.   Let us now see whether this situation was of a purely local

 8     nature, or was it of any broader significance for this part of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So please look at my set of documents, document 4D

10     397.  It is a document which is already an exhibit.  It is a letter by

11     Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic addressed on the 20th of June, 1991, to the

12     Municipal Staff of the HVO in Gornji Vakuf.  Have you found that

13     document?

14        A.   Yes, I have.

15        Q.   It's a brief document.  In the fourth line, Brigadier Petkovic

16     says that the TO and the HVO are component parts of the armed forces of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18             Mr. Batinic, could you please comment on this?  Does this

19     statement correspond to what we saw in the documents of the Presidency of

20     Gornji Vakuf, which apply simultaneously to the Territorial Defence and

21     the HVO?

22        A.   The Crisis Staff of Gornji Vakuf and the Presidency of Gornji

23     Vakuf municipality considered as legitimate defence forces both the HVO

24     and the TO as equally and on an equal footing.  And let me add that as

25     the Presidency of the municipality of Gornji Vakuf, by our decision we

Page 34453

 1     appointed to the Presidency the commander of the armed forces of the HVO

 2     and the commander of the armed forces of the TO who, let me add in

 3     passing, regularly attended our meetings.  Sometimes one of their

 4     deputies would attend, and they would regularly report the same body

 5     about the situation on the ground, the behaviour of the aggressor, et

 6     cetera.

 7        Q.   On the basis of those documents and your statement, one could get

 8     the impression that in Gornji Vakuf you managed to establish something

 9     like a Joint Command.  Would such a conclusion be correct or incorrect?

10        A.   One could not say that there was a Joint Command, but what one

11     can say is that they coordinated their activities, that is, the command

12     of the HVO and the TO command.  So their coordination was excellent.

13        Q.   If we look at the last sentence in this document of Brigadier

14     Petkovic at the time, which ends with the call to go jointly to the line

15     of defence against the common enemy, that is, the Bosnian Serbs, would

16     this call be in accordance with what was happening in the area of Gornji

17     Vakuf?

18        A.   Yes, in view of the fact that the armed forces of the TO had

19     abandoned the defence line facing the Serbs on Radusa mountain.

20        Q.   Let me ask you a couple of questions regarding the conflict in

21     October 1992.  This is the second conflict that you mentioned.  Please

22     look at two documents.  The first is P 633.  It is also a letter by

23     Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, who now has the position of chief of the HVO

24     Main Staff, and it is addressed, among others, to Gornji Vakuf urging the

25     commanders to try and calm the situation.

Page 34454

 1             And the next document, P 644, dated the 24th of October, with

 2     roughly the same contents, and it is an order to establish contact with

 3     the party in conflict and a cessation of hostilities.

 4             Tell me, Mr. Batinic, you didn't see these orders before?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Do you know who Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic was?

 7        A.   In my memory serves me well, he was the commander of the HVO in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

 9        Q.   Did you know about him at the time, that is in June and October

10     1992?

11        A.   I had heard of General Petkovic, but I didn't have occasion to

12     meet him.

13        Q.   These orders to calm the situation and to cease hostilities, do

14     they correspond to what was going on in the area of Gornji Vakuf at the

15     time, that is, that the local commanders were endeavouring to calm the

16     situation and ease tensions?

17        A.   Absolutely so, the more so as we in Gornji Vakuf made a maximum

18     of effort to avoid that conflict.

19        Q.   Tell me, did the commanders of the TO and the HVO occasionally

20     walk through town together so as to let the people know that they were

21     together, that they were endeavouring to control the situation and in

22     that sense to set the population at ease regarding the situation?

23        A.   Not the two commanders of the armed forces but a group of maybe

24     up to 50 men in which there were equal numbers of Croats and Muslims, the

25     most influential people of Gornji Vakuf, which included the commanders of

Page 34455

 1     the armed forces of the HVO and the TO.  And we had the so-called March

 2     of Peace throughout the town of Gornji Vakuf, and by this peace march we

 3     wanted to bring peace to the population of Gornji Vakuf to see that we

 4     were together, that nothing strange would happen or should happen,

 5     especially not a conflict.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us precisely when this peace march took place?

 7        A.   I believe that this peace march took place in the evening of the

 8     24th of October, 1992.

 9        Q.   Mr. Batinic, let me ask you a few brief questions about flags.

10     You spoke about this at length.  If my understanding was correct, it was

11     customary for the Croats to hoist their Croatian flags [as interpreted]

12     during the holidays.  Is my understanding correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Tell me, did this custom exist prior to 1992?

15        A.   After the first multi-party elections, this could be done freely

16     for our holidays that I mentioned, that is Christmas, New Year, and the

17     Holy Three Kings.  Unfortunately, prior to the multi-party elections,

18     this was not allowed in Socialist Yugoslavia and in Gornji Vakuf at the

19     time.

20        Q.   The elections were at the end of 1990, so from the end of 1990

21     onwards the Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina could freely hang up their

22     flags; is that right?

23        A.   Yes, for the appropriate holidays.

24        Q.   In 1991 when the flag of the Croatian people in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina was hoisted, would any Muslim inhabitants consider

Page 34456

 1     this flag to be a provocation?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   You mentioned the Holy Three Kings frequently.  Maybe this is

 4     common knowledge, but nevertheless, let us say when this holiday occurs.

 5     It is on the 6th of January.  Is that so?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   And finally, let me just ask you something in connection with a

 8     few documents of the BH army and some other Muslim documents, so please

 9     look at document 3D 511.  These are conclusions from a meeting of

10     representatives of the Muslims held on the 11th of July, 1992, in Gornji

11     Vakuf.  I'm interested in paragraph 4.

12             Please tell us first whether you were aware that a meeting of the

13     representatives of Muslims was being held on at that date in Gornji

14     Vakuf.

15        A.   I was not.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could there be a pause, please.

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Let us look at paragraph 4.  "The representatives of Muslims of

19     Central Bosnia and Herzegovina approve and support the fight of the HVO

20     as a component part --"

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You're going too fast, much too fast.  It's

22     often happens when one reads a document.  The interpreters have

23     difficulties.

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I thought I was slow

25     enough.

Page 34457

 1        Q.   So paragraph 4, the first sentence:  "The representatives of the

 2     Muslims of Central Bosnia and Herzegovina approve and support the fight

 3     of the HVO as a component part of the entire liberating army of Bosnia

 4     and Herzegovina in all military issues."

 5             Mr. Batinic, could you please comment on this?  According to your

 6     knowledge and the positions of your co-inhabitants of Muslim ethnicity,

 7     did they support the efforts of the HVO, and was it challenged at all

 8     that the HVO was defending Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 9        A.   The Muslims in Gornji Vakuf perceived the armed forces of the HVO

10     and the armed forces of the TO in the same way.  Their duty was to defend

11     the Gornji Vakuf municipality.  The most responsible representatives of

12     the Muslim people who were in the Crisis Staff and in the Presidency of

13     the municipality of Gornji Vakuf showed this in their opinions, in their

14     decisions, in their conclusions on a daily basis.  This was confirmed on

15     a daily basis.

16        Q.   Mr. Batinic, I'll now show you a document, P 1226.  It's already

17     been admitted into evidence, so if you could just comment on part of it,

18     please.

19             In this trial, it's very important for us to know whether the

20     Muslim population of certain villages in Gornji Vakuf moved out of their

21     villages, and if they did so, how.  So please comment on the penultimate

22     paragraph in this report from Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic.  I'll read

23     out the sentence that I'm interested in:  "The upper part of town and all

24     the villages inhabited by Muslims are under the control of the Armija, of

25     the army, with the exception of the village of Uzricje, Uzricje, part of

Page 34458

 1     whose residents evacuated or moved out voluntarily and moved to Gornji

 2     Vakuf, as well as the village of Hrasnica whose residents evacuated to

 3     Grnica."

 4             Mr. Batinic, do you know who Enver Hadzihasanovic was?

 5        A.   Well, at the time, I did not know who Mr. -- I don't even know

 6     what his surname is.  Hadzihasanovic.  I later heard about him from

 7     commanders of the HVO.

 8        Q.   Tell me, was Gornji Vakuf in the area of responsibility of the

 9     3rd Corps?

10        A.   According to the information I had, yes, it was.

11        Q.   Did you at any time - and this includes the post-war period -

12     hear that Muslims evacuated from these individual villages around Gornji

13     Vakuf?

14        A.   Well, I don't know what happened exactly on the 19th of January,

15     1993, in these inhabited places.  I have already said, I said so

16     yesterday and I have said so today, that during that period of time I was

17     located or deployed in the settlement Gornji Vakuf below the elevations,

18     the repeater, and the purpose I had was to protect myself and my family.

19        Q.   Very well.  I thought that perhaps you had heard something about

20     the post-war periods and events.

21             Can you just comment on 4D 1235 now, please.  It's a brief

22     document, a short document.  It's a report from Commander Hadzihasanovic

23     dated the 10th of January, 1993, so a period prior to the beginning of

24     the conflict.

25             It says and I quote:  "Given the continuation of the Geneva

Page 34459

 1     political negotiations -- on the occasion of political negotiations in

 2     Geneva and at the request of a huge number of units and fighters of the

 3     3rd Corps of the ABiH, we hereby offer you our unconditional support in

 4     your efforts to prevent the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina on ethnic

 5     or any other principles.

 6              "Do not allow --" I haven't finish the quote.  I'm continuing.

 7     "Do not allow the following, and neither shall we, do not allow that the

 8     blood spilled so far and the sacrifice of our fighters, children, women,

 9     fathers and mothers be in vain."

10             Mr. Batinic, tell us, have you ever heard of any period of

11     time -- at the time and later that members of the ABiH were against

12     organising Bosnia and Herzegovina in accordance with the Vance-Owen Plan

13     that had been put forward in January 1993?

14        A.   With regard to the period that this document refers to, the 10th

15     of January, 1993, well, I had no such information.

16        Q.   And later on, did you obtain any such information?

17        A.   Well, look, when you're a participant in armed combat and when

18     your life is at threat on a daily basis, your main task is to remain

19     alive and then to protect those who are with you, and you are least

20     concerned with such matters as these before us.  So I can't say anything

21     in answer to your question.  If they had accepted one of the solutions,

22     the war between the ABiH and the HVO wouldn't have been so fierce.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Batinic.

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have now completed

25     my cross-examination.  There is just one correction I would like to make,

Page 34460

 1     and I thank Ms. Pinter for telling me about this.

 2             On page 86, line 11 and 12, my question on the flag of the

 3     Croatian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina was wrongly translated as a

 4     question about the Croatian flag.  So please bear in mind that I always

 5     asked questions about the Croatian flag of the Croats in Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina.  Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have a few

 8     minutes before we adjourn; and therefore, it's perhaps not necessary for

 9     the Prosecution to commence with their re-examination unless they so

10     desire.  If not, we can start with cross-examination tomorrow at 9.00.

11     The Prosecution will have four hours.

12             Mr. Scott.

13             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No, we agree with you,

14     Your Honour.  We would appreciate that -- since we only have about ten

15     minutes, we'll appreciate if we could just make a clean start tomorrow.

16             I will use one moment of the time, if I may, please, to ask for

17     a -- the Court's permission to file a longer response to the applications

18     for provisional release.  Just as a brief recap, Your Honours, the --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private

20     session.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I won't mention any names,

22     but I understand.  I agree.

23                           [Private session]

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 34461











11 Pages 34461-34463 redacted. Private session.















Page 34464

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day

 8                           of November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.