Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37692

 1                           Wednesday, 4 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

10     et al.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Today is Tuesday [as interpreted], 4th of March, 2009.  Good

14     morning, Mr. Pusic.  Good morning, Mr. Praljak and Mr. Coric, good

15     morning to Defence counsel, and all the representatives of the OTP under

16     the helm of Mr. Stringer, and good morning to all the people assisting

17     us.

18             You have two IC numbers, don't you, Mr. Registrar?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's right, Your Honour.

20             Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered

21     through Witness 2D-AB.  The list submitted by 2D shall be given

22     Exhibit IC 937, and the list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given

23     Exhibit IC 938.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We're going to have

25     a new witness.  You will have two hours for Mr. Stojic.  The Prosecutor

Page 37693

 1     will have two hours, and the other Defence counsel will have one hour.

 2             Without further adieu, let's have the witness brought in.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 5             Please state your surname, first name, and date of birth.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Pinjuh; 1963.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What date, precisely?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 13th of December, 1963.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

10     occupation, sir?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment, I'm retired.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From the army, from what?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was your rank?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Major.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Sir, have you had

17     an opportunity to testify before a court of law or is this going to be

18     the first time?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

21     declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN PINJUH

25                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

Page 37694

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please sit

 2     down.

 3             I think that Ms. Nozica explained to you how this is going to

 4     take place.  She's going to ask questions of you and submit some 20

 5     documents.  Thereafter, the other accused [as interpreted] representing

 6     the other accused, if they think it's useful, will ask questions

 7     themselves, and then you have the OTP representatives on your right-hand

 8     side who are going to have the same time for their cross-examination as

 9     Ms. Nozica had for her examination-in-chief.  And the four Judges in

10     front of you may also ask questions of you, based on the documents we are

11     given.

12             So this is what I wanted to tell you.

13             You now are a witness of the Court.  In other words, you probably

14     will continue your testimony tomorrow, but you're not supposed to have

15     any contact whatsoever with anybody.

16             If you fail to understand a question, do not hesitate to ask for

17     clarification or for the question to be rephrased.

18             If you're not feeling well, tell us so, and I'll have the doctor

19     come straight away to have you examined.  Otherwise, we can have a short

20     break.  But that's just in theory.  So this should enable your testimony

21     to unfold as smoothly as possible.

22             You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.

23             MS. NOZICA:  Good morning, Your Honours, and everybody else in

24     the courtroom.

25             Your Honours, calculating the time left of the Stojic Defence, I

Page 37695

 1     shall endeavour to be as quick with this witness as possible so that we

 2     can divide the time up among the other witnesses.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pinjuh.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, I'd just shortly like to go through your CV and the

 7     posts you occupied, so I'll take it in order, and you'll just tell me

 8     whether what I'm saying is correct.

 9             You went to the Vocational Machine and Technical School in

10     Sarajevo and completed that in 1982, and in 1994 you also graduated from

11     the additional police training course.  On the 18th of September, 1991,

12     you were engaged as a reservist of the MUP of BH in Sarajevo.  On the 6th

13     of April, 1992, you became the commander of the Pofalici Company within

14     the frameworks of the TO in Novo Sarajevo in Sarajevo.  At the beginning

15     of June, 1992, when the HVO was established in Sarajevo, you became the

16     commander of the battalion of the HVO in Novo Sarajevo.  On the 29th of

17     December, 1992, you were appointed the deputy president of the brigade of

18     the HVO -- correction.  I meant to say "deputy commander" of the brigade

19     of the HVO, called Kralj Tvrtko in Sarajevo.  From the end of April 1993,

20     you found yourself in Medjugorje, and up until that time you otherwise

21     lived in Sarajevo.  On the 15th of August, 1993, you were relieved of

22     your duties as deputy commander of the HVO, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and

23     until December 1993, you were placed at the disposal of the office for

24     the defence of Grude.

25             From December 1993 onwards, you relocated to Mostar to take up

Page 37696

 1     your duties there as commander of the unit for the protection and

 2     security of facilities and individuals of special importance of the MUP

 3     of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.  In 19 -- yes, that's right.

 4     In 1997, you became employed in a private firm, a security firm, and in

 5     1999 you got a job in the National Security Service of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And after that, in 2005, you retired.

 7             Are all -- is that information correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, at the beginning of June, as we said reading out your

10     CV, when the HVO of Sarajevo was established, did you -- were you

11     appointed to a post?

12        A.   Yes.  I was appointed commander of the Novo Sarajevo Battalion,

13     and I was appointed by the then president of the HVO, Velimir Maric.

14        Q.   In addition to the battalion in Sarajevo, at that time were there

15     other -- any other HVO battalions?

16        A.   Yes.  There was one in Sarajevo, which was the 1st Battalion with

17     its seat at Stup, Ilidza municipality.  There was the 2nd Battalion in

18     the Novi Grad municipality, and the 4th Battalion in Centar, the

19     municipality of Stari Grad.

20        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, was a brigade, an HVO brigade, established in

21     Sarajevo, and if so, when?

22        A.   Yes, a brigade was formed in December 1992, and its name was

23     Kralj Tvrtko.

24        Q.   Do you know who appointed -- who was appointed commander of the

25     brigade and who that was?

Page 37697

 1        A.   The brigade commander became Mr. Slavko Zelic, and he was

 2     appointed by the president, Mate Boban.

 3        Q.   Do you know when the other officers were appointed and in what

 4     way, how they came to be in the Command of the brigade?

 5        A.   At the proposal of the command of the brigade, Slavko Zelic, the

 6     Command of the brigade was appointed, and the head of the Defence

 7     Department, Mr. Bruno Stojic, made those appointments.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, please, to the best of your recollections, when

 9     that occurred?

10        A.   That was at the end of December 1992.

11        Q.   In addition to this military section of the HVO in Sarajevo, was

12     there a civilian section of the HVO, and if so, as of what date?

13        A.   Yes, it did.  There was the Municipal Council of the HVO as a

14     civilian body, as a civilian council, and with the Defence Department in

15     Sarajevo, it came to be established, and the first president was Velimir

16     Maric.  And later on, Mr. Slavko Zelic was appointed president of the

17     Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo, and as far as I remember he was

18     appointed in March 1993 by the president of the HVO, Mr. Jadranko Prlic.

19        Q.   We are talking about 1992 here; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you to look at the binder.  If you haven't

22     been provided with it, you will be.  And I'd like us to look at some of

23     the documents we've -- referring to the events and appointments we've

24     just been discussing.

25             Witness, would you look at document 2D 1185 now, please, and that

Page 37698

 1     should be the first document in your binder.

 2             Have you found it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So this is a letter to be handed to Mr. Slavko Zelic in person,

 5     and it is from the head of the Defence Department, Bruno Stojic.  The

 6     date is the 5th of December, 1992.  And from this letter, we can see that

 7     Mr. Zelic had already been appointed commander of the brigade by

 8     Mr. Boban, as you said, and he is being asked to send in a list of the

 9     Command, the persons to take up their positions in the Command, with all

10     their CV and data, so that these individuals could be appointed.  And it

11     says that the brigade will be named the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade.

12             Now, do you know that Mr. Slavko Zelic did indeed do this and

13     send in a proposal for the men to make up the Command?

14        A.   Yes, and Slavko compiled this proposal.

15        Q.   And now take a look at the next document, which is 2D 1177.  And

16     tell me when you've found it.

17        A.   I've found it.

18        Q.   This is a letter of appointment by Mr. Bruno Stojic, dated the

19     29th of December, of the Command of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo;

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you are under number 1 as the deputy commander.  Now I'd like

23     you to turn to the second page, where we can see that the document was

24     sent to the Brigade Command, the Main Staff, and what is particularly

25     important, to the Personnel Department.

Page 37699

 1             Now, Mr. Pinjuh, do you know that the Brigade Command was kept a

 2     record of, and in the Personnel Department of the Defence Department in

 3     Mostar?

 4        A.   As far as I know, yes.

 5        Q.   I'd like you now to look at the next document, which is P 1778,

 6     P 1778, as I said, and this is the 33rd session of the Croatian Defence

 7     Council, as we can see from this document.  And I'd like to ask you to

 8     turn to page 5 in both the English and Croatian versions.  And I'd like

 9     to emphasise that the date of this session is the 1st of April, 1993.

10             And on page 5, under item 8, we see that in the HVO of the

11     Sarajevo municipality, Slavko Zelic is being appointed as president?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And then on the second page, we have the entire Presidency, and

14     the HVO commissioners in the various municipalities, Stari Grad, Novo

15     Sarajevo, Novi Grad, and Ilidza; right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   So that is, in fact, the decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB on the

18     appointment of the Presidency, when Mr. Zelic was appointed president;

19     right?

20        A.   Right.

21        Q.   I'd like to ask you now, Mr. Pinjuh, to explain to the Trial

22     Chamber how the battalions and HVO brigades or, rather, the Kralj Tvrtko

23     Brigade was distributed in Sarajevo.  What lines did they hold?

24        A.   The HVO units in Sarajevo included four battalions.  The 1st

25     Battalion held its line in the area of responsibility of the Stup

Page 37700

 1     settlement.  The 2nd and 3rd Battalion held the line along the Miljacka

 2     River, the Novo Sarajevo municipality towards Malin Vor, and the 4th was

 3     the Protection Battalion providing security for various facilities and

 4     had the role of intervention as an intervention battalion.

 5        Q.   This deployment and disposition of the battalions of the HVO

 6     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade or, rather, battalion, was that in agreement with

 7     the BH Army?

 8        A.   Yes, that was done in cooperation and in agreement with the

 9     BH Army.

10        Q.   And for how long did this line along the Miljacka River, as you

11     said -- how long did it exist?

12        A.   Until the 6th of November, 1993.

13        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, could you explain to the Trial Chamber now how

14     important this line was, especially that line along the Miljacka River

15     that you mentioned which, as we can see, was held by your battalion?

16     What was its importance, in terms of defence?  How important was it, in

17     terms of the defence of the city of Sarajevo?

18        A.   That line was right in the center of the city of Sarajevo between

19     the Novo Sarajevo and Centar municipalities, and if the line fell, then

20     Sarajevo would be split into two parts, and most probably life would be

21     very different and the military positions would be very different, and

22     the city might even have fallen.

23        Q.   The line was on the Miljacka River?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, can you please tell me what was the ethnic

Page 37701

 1     composition of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO Brigade?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before Ms. Nozica

 3     addresses this issue, I'm now discovering things with you.  I didn't know

 4     at all that until November 1993 the HVO was in Sarajevo in agreement with

 5     the ABiH, so this is something that comes into play and that I wasn't at

 6     all aware of, which might change quite a few things indeed.  I must ask

 7     you follow-up questions.

 8             If I understand properly, it was during this siege of Sarajevo by

 9     the Serbs; is that right?

10             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the common enemy, HVO -- I

12     asked you something, but we didn't get your answer on record.  I'll ask

13     you again.

14             Sir, it was during the siege of Sarajevo by the Serbs?  So please

15     answer that.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was during the Serb

17     siege.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In other words,

19     until November 1993, the HVO and the ABiH had a common enemy, the Serbs?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In purely military terms,

22     because you had somehow the space in Sarajevo spread between you, and you

23     said just as well you were there because otherwise Sarajevo would have

24     fallen quickly.  As the four HVO battalions and ABiH were spread, who was

25     your counterpart on the ABiH side?  Who was your counterpart?

Page 37702

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan,

 2     was the commander of the 1st Corps, and his deputy was Vehid Karavelic.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was Mustafa, whose

 4     surname was not put on record, who was your counterpart.  Does this mean

 5     that on a daily basis, there were telephone or physical contacts between

 6     the HVO and the ABiH in order to face the Serb enemy?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did cooperate in a number

 8     of sectors, military, logistics, and as needed in some other sectors as

 9     well.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI [Interpretation]:  And was this some permanent

11     cooperation?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was constant when we were

13     holding the line.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When did it cease?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of November, 1993.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for all your answers.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18             I would just like to ask to make a correction.

19        Q.   You said Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan, was the commander of the

20     1st Corps; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And Mr. Kraljevic was his deputy; is that correct?

23        A.   If I remember correctly, he was his deputy and later commander.

24        Q.   And when he was deputy, that was his rank, and you cooperated

25     with him?

Page 37703

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   I asked you about that earlier, but now that His Honour, the

 3     Judge, put that question, you had joint meetings and coordinated in all

 4     important things?

 5        A.   Yes.  Commander Zelic mostly did that.

 6        Q.   Were you present at those meetings?

 7        A.   Occasionally when I was in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   And this disposition, this deployment of the units that were

 9     holding the line around Sarajevo was absolutely in agreement with the

10     1st Corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian Army; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I'm going to ask you like that, and you can tell Their Honours

13     because they don't know that perhaps.  Do you agree that one of the lines

14     that the HVO was holding was one of the most important lines at the time

15     when the HVO was there, in view of the geographical layout, because in

16     that section the line of separation was a river?

17             I cannot hear you.  What you're nodding is not good enough.  We

18     would need to have that on the transcript.

19             But now my colleague is on her feet.

20             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Good morning to Your Honours, and everyone in and around the

22     courtroom, Witness.

23             I would have to object to the line of questioning by Ms. Nozica

24     here, and I get up to object to leading question.  And, in particular, on

25     page 12, line 9, the question is asked:  "Do you agree that one of the

Page 37704

 1     lines ..."  And I would ask for counsel to phrase her questions more

 2     openly.

 3             Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Thank you, thank you,

 6     thank you, I will rephrase.

 7        Q.   How important for the defence of the town of Sarajevo -- I

 8     already asked you that, but I'm asking you because of the geographical

 9     nature of that line.  What was it, in terms of its layout, the line that

10     the HVO was holding?

11        A.   The line was very important for the defence of the town of

12     Sarajevo, because in the center of town itself, in the Novo Sarajevo

13     municipality, the Serbian Army had entered Grbavica, which was the urban

14     part of the town, and that is where the Miljacka River flows.  On the

15     other side, there were the Marshal Tito Barracks, where the JNA Army was

16     still situated.  And then two kilometres further along was the border

17     with the Serbian army towards Vogosca, so if the line fell the area of

18     Grbavica would join up with the lines in Valesici and Gornji Pofalici,

19     and that is why -- and the barracks, Marshal Tito, and that is why the

20     town would be cut in two parts, because the line -- that was why the line

21     was important.  And otherwise the town would have been cut in two parts.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there were

23     International Observers there.  Were they aware of that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We had our own officer,

25     liaison officer, who was with the UNPROFOR.

Page 37705

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, your liaison officer

 2     would explain to the UNPROFOR everything about the cooperation?

 3     Everybody was aware?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We are now going to move to the numbers.  We are now talking

 7     about figures that are known to you.  Can you tell me the strength of the

 8     HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade and what was the ethnic composition of the

 9     brigade?

10        A.   The Kralj Tvrtko Brigade was some 1800 men strong.  The ethnic

11     composition was 50 per cent members of the Croatian ethnicity, and the

12     rest were Bosniaks and Serbs, as well as representatives of the ethnic

13     minorities, such as the Hungarian, Czech, Roma, Jewish, and others.

14        Q.   Can you please tell me the weapons that your brigade had?

15        A.   Our brigade was an infantry brigade, and it had infantry

16     weaponry, for the most part.

17        Q.   And how was this weaponry obtained?

18        A.   With organising the defence and the formation of units in

19     Sarajevo, the first weapons were personal weapons or weapons issued

20     through the MUP or the TO.  Later, with the liberation of the barracks in

21     Sarajevo, some weapons were seized and were distributed to the HVO and

22     the B and H Army units.

23        Q.   And can you please tell me, in 1992, did you receive any weapons

24     from the HVO Mostar Defence Department?

25        A.   From what I know, the logistics support and weapons and

Page 37706

 1     ammunition did come from that area.

 2        Q.   Can you briefly tell me how it came into the town, physically?

 3     And I don't want to put leading questions, but was the town at that time

 4     already under siege by the Serbian Army?

 5        A.   Which period are you talking about?

 6        Q.   The end of 1991 and later, end of 1993.

 7        A.   It usually came by military routes via Igman.

 8        Q.   Can you explain to Their Honours what that means, via military

 9     paths?  Did somebody carry it, transfer it?

10        A.   Mostly, it was physically carried by -- on foot.

11        Q.   Can you please tell me if this provision of supplies and weapons

12     from Mostar -- was the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina informed about

13     that, and did you do this in cooperation with them?

14        A.   Yes, they were informed about it, and they didn't pose any

15     problems for this kind of thing to us.

16        Q.   You said that the HVO in Sarajevo also had a liaison officer with

17     the UNPROFOR?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you please tell me who that was?

20        A.   That was Mr. Anton Rill.

21        Q.   Anton Rill.  Can you tell Their Honours, based on your

22     experience, if you know - I'm interested in only what you know - what was

23     the task of that officer, liaison officer?  What did he do that you knew

24     of?

25        A.   Well, it was our intention, through the liaison officer with the

Page 37707

 1     UNPROFOR, to inform the UNPROFOR about all that was happening in the HVO

 2     and in the town of Sarajevo, and also to see how the citizens of the town

 3     of Sarajevo could be helped, also the HVO, from UNPROFOR.

 4        Q.   Sir, did you remain in Sarajevo that whole time?  Now we see that

 5     in December, you were appointed deputy commander of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO

 6     Brigade.  Were you in Sarajevo the whole time?

 7        A.   No.  In late 1992, pursuant to a decision of the brigade HQ, was

 8     sent to the Mostar area, to the Defence Department, in order to secure

 9     logistical support for our brigade in Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Did you go out of Sarajevo, and with whom did you leave?

11        A.   I left in January under military police escort.

12        Q.   We're talking about 1993 now, are we?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what you say, military police escort, was that somebody from

15     your brigade?

16        A.   Yes, it was the brigade military police.

17        Q.   When you -- did you -- let me ask you this:  In this period up to

18     January 1993, did you have any communications with Sarajevo -- with

19     Mostar?  Excuse me.  Were you able to communicate with Mostar from

20     Sarajevo?

21        A.   We didn't have any direct connections, only communication through

22     Hamm radio operators.  We could speak with somebody from Herzegovina or

23     sometimes through the high representative who worked in the high-ranking

24     bodies of the authorities.

25        Q.   When you came to Mostar, who received you?

Page 37708

 1        A.   When I came to Mostar, we went to see the chief of the Defence

 2     Department and his deputy, Mr. Bozic, and that day we also met

 3     Mr. Praljak.

 4        Q.   And what was the topic of these meetings that day in Mostar?

 5        A.   We informed the gentlemen about the situation and all that was

 6     going on in Sarajevo, and we asked for specific assistance in materiel

 7     and equipment.

 8        Q.   And did you receive any support or promises from Mr. Stojic and

 9     from Mr. Praljak?

10        A.   Yes, we did receive support, and everything that they told us

11     then was later implemented.

12        Q.   Did you explain to them which positions the HVO was holding in

13     town?

14        A.   Yes, we told them what our positions were.

15        Q.   And did you receive support, in terms of that, to continue with

16     these activities?

17        A.   Yes, we received full support for our participation in the

18     defence of the town of Sarajevo.

19        Q.   After this meeting, did you take any steps in order to obtain the

20     materiel and equipment required for the defence of Sarajevo by your

21     brigade?

22        A.   After the meeting, we organised a convoy to transfer weapons to

23     Sarajevo.  We went to the Logistics Centre in Grude and told them what we

24     needed, and requested the necessary passes from the 4th Corps.  Then we

25     brought the weapons in.

Page 37709

 1        Q.   Where did you bring them in?

 2        A.   We brought the weapons to the relocated Logistics Centre in

 3     Kiseljak.  That was the one for the HVO of Sarajevo.  And then we

 4     organised the transfer of that to Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   When you say the Logistics Centre in Kiseljak, was this a

 6     logistics centre of your brigade, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Could you please explain to the Chamber why it was necessary for

 9     you to have a logistics centre in Kiseljak?  What were the reasons for

10     that?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to get

12     back to the visit you made in January, where you met Mr. Stojic, Bozic,

13     and General Praljak.  According to what we understood, you asked them for

14     their support, for logistical and arms support.  When you addressed them,

15     did you address them as Croats from Herzegovina or were you addressing

16     the Republic of Croatia?  When you were asking for help, who did you turn

17     to, exactly?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HZ-HB HVO Defence Department.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A subsidiary question:  Did

20     they tell you that they could provide you with equipment, or did they say

21     that you needed to wait?  What did they say, exactly?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that they were supporting

23     us and that we should go to the Central Logistics Centre in Grude, headed

24     by Mr. Ante Jelavic, and to see what we can get, what they had available.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that's what you did?

Page 37710

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   And my last question was what this Logistics Centre in Kiseljak

 4     was, and why was it in Kiseljak, and you said it was a logistics centre

 5     of your brigade.  I asked you why it had to be located in Kiseljak.

 6        A.   We made a decision to set up a logistics centre in Kiseljak

 7     because it was the closest to Sarajevo.  It was like a logistics

 8     warehouse, where we would assemble the weapons and the required materiel

 9     and equipment and distribute it to Sarajevo from there, when possible.

10        Q.   Witness, to make things absolutely clear, in Sarajevo -- you

11     couldn't enter Sarajevo by car at that time, could you?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   All right.  Fine.  Now, after leaving Sarajevo, did you leave

14     anymore times for -- to procure materiel and equipment?

15        A.   Yes.  In March, we needed anti-armoured devices because tanks

16     were used against us, so we needed some anti-armour devices, and we

17     organised another trip to the Logistical Centre to try and procure those

18     vehicles.

19        Q.   Witness, before we move on to this other trip of yours, are we

20     talking about the 1st January and December and -- January and February of

21     1993, was that when Sarajevo had a lack of materiel and technical

22     equipment and food, and was that indeed the most difficult time in

23     Sarajevo after the aggression of the Serb Army?

24        A.   Well, that year was a terrible year.

25             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 37711

 1             I'll again have to object to leading questions.  I'm asking for

 2     counsel to phrase her questions more openly.

 3             Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, please avoid

 5     leading questions.  What I'm interested in are the answers, not so much

 6     the way questions are put.  As a judge, I know how to weigh the

 7     questions, whether they are a leading question or not.  The Prosecution

 8     feels this is a question of principle, so please rephrase your questions

 9     so that we don't have objections.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

11     understand that completely, and we did raise the same objections during

12     the Prosecution case, so I'll do my best not to ask leading questions.

13        Q.   Anyway, what was the end of 1992 like and the beginning of 1993

14     in Sarajevo, from the aspects of weapons, the weaponry that the army had,

15     the military activities, the humanitarian situation, electricity, water,

16     and all the rest of it?

17        A.   During that period, Sarajevo faced a very difficult situation.

18     It was a very cold winter.  There was no heating, no electricity, no

19     water either.  It was very cold.  All the stocks that we had had been

20     exhausted, food stocks and everything else, and it was a truly difficult

21     situation.

22        Q.   Was that one of the reasons for which you were given this

23     assignment to try and procure material and resources from the HVO Mostar

24     for the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?

25        A.   Yes.  We had enough manpower, but we needed logistics, logistical

Page 37712

 1     support, mostly.  We had enough long barrels, but not food and all the

 2     rest of it.  We kept having a shortage of food, medicines, and many other

 3     things.

 4        Q.   Could you explain briefly what your second trip was like and what

 5     happened along the way, en route?

 6        A.   Well, I decided to set out on that journey again.  We set out,

 7     and we came across a check-point before entering Konjic municipality, a

 8     check-point that wasn't there before, and we were stopped there by

 9     members of the BH Army.  And after inspecting our documents, they allowed

10     us to pass through.  And at Jablanica, we came across another

11     check-point.  We showed our IDs again, talked to the men there, asked

12     that they let us through, and they did.  So I realised that there were

13     check-points set up along that free part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   And that was the first time that you saw these check-points?

15        A.   Yes.  The first time I went, there were no check-points, and I

16     had no problems.

17        Q.   You had permission from the 1st Corps of the BH Army and all the

18     necessary papers and documents showing that you were going from Sarajevo

19     and that you were a member of the Sarajevo HVO; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you reach Mostar?

22        A.   Yes, we did.

23        Q.   And did you undertake any measures to organise a convoy?

24        A.   We went to Grude.  We were put up in Citluk.  We went to Grude,

25     the Logistical Centre there, and tried to see how many anti-armoured

Page 37713

 1     vehicles we could procure and to see how we were going to transport them,

 2     bring them in.

 3        Q.   And what did you do next?

 4        A.   As we did our best to procure the material we needed and to see

 5     how we were going to get them to where they were needed, through the

 6     media and in talking to people, we see -- saw that something was

 7     happening in that general area, that there were conflicts and clashes

 8     between the HVO and BH Army, skirmishes, especially in Konjic.

 9        Q.   And what period was that?  You said you set out in March, but

10     what period are you referring to now?

11        A.   It was the end of March and beginning of April 1993.

12        Q.   Did you hear anything specific about what happened in Konjic at

13     the end of March?

14        A.   At the time, I was in Citluk and I heard there that the BH Army

15     had attacked HVO units in Konjic.

16        Q.   All right, thank you.  And regardless of that, you decided to

17     return to Sarajevo, did you?

18        A.   No, we decided that we couldn't, given the present circumstances,

19     take the same route back, so we returned the weapons -- or, rather, we

20     left them in Grude.

21        Q.   But did you set out towards Sarajevo, nonetheless?

22        A.   We waited for a time to see what the developments were going to

23     be, and after some time had passed we decided to go back to Sarajevo,

24     because that's where we came from.

25        Q.   Well, tell us who set out on the journey?

Page 37714

 1        A.   Well, we received some humanitarian assistance first in

 2     Siroki Brijeg to take to the defenders' families, some food and things

 3     like that, and then we loaded them up into a truck and set out for

 4     Sarajevo on the 15th of April, 1993.

 5        Q.   I see.  The 15th of April, 1993?

 6        A.   I think that was the date, yes.

 7        Q.   And what happened along your route?

 8        A.   Well, the logistics people and the military policemen, with a

 9     small truck, went in front of me.  I followed them.  And before entering

10     Jablanica, the road was closed at a check-point, and I was stopped by the

11     BH Army.  And when I got out to explain to them that I had all my papers

12     in order, a member of the BH Army hit me with his rifle-butt.  He hit me

13     in my face.  And they then took me to the Jablanica police station, and

14     they took my side-arms and vehicle, and seized my documents and told me

15     to wait, that I was to speak to their security officer.

16        Q.   Did he come?  Did you have that conversation, that interview?

17        A.   Several hours later, he did appear, and we did have that

18     conversation.  Well, interview.

19        Q.   What happened afterwards?  Were your papers and vehicle returned

20     to you?

21        A.   No, my side-arms and vehicle were not returned.  The papers had

22     to be checked out, and I had to stay there for several days while they

23     inspected my papers.

24        Q.   So did you stay there?

25        A.   I was on the premises of that police station all the time,

Page 37715

 1     waiting, waiting every day for my documents to be returned so that I

 2     could continue my journey towards Sarajevo.  I thought that I would

 3     ultimately be able to reach Sarajevo, but after some time had gone by I

 4     realised that I wasn't going to be allowed to pass, that the conflicts

 5     had already begun, and I decided to take another route and go back to

 6     Herzegovina across the mountains.

 7        Q.   And did you do that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Fine.  Now, after that, you said that that was -- that you set

10     out for Mostar on the 15th of April; right?  So that was sometime around

11     the beginning of May.  Have I calculated that properly?

12        A.   Well, the end of April.

13        Q.   I see, the end of April 1993.  Where did you go to Herzegovina,

14     specifically?

15        A.   I went to Medjugorje.

16        Q.   I see, Medjugorje.  Tell me, please, after that, did you ever go

17     back to Sarajevo?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And you live in Herzegovina to this day?

20        A.   I live in the Mostar area, but I have a house in Sarajevo, where

21     my father lives, so I very often go to Sarajevo and travel between Mostar

22     and Sarajevo.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, with respect to logistical support, I'd like to

24     ask you to look at some documents.  2D 1195 is the first one.  I think

25     that's the next document in order in your binder.  2D 1195 is the number.

Page 37716

 1     Have you found it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, this is a letter from the commander of the Kralj Tvrtko

 4     Brigade, Slavko Zelic, on the 25th of February, 1993.  He is sent to the

 5     Main Staff in Mostar -- it's been sent to the Main Staff in Mostar.  And

 6     from the first part of that letter, we see that he says that the HVO of

 7     Sarajevo has for some time been trying to procure materiel and technical

 8     equipment for the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and he says that the results are

 9     minimal because they weren't able to organise a sufficiently secure

10     channel for bringing in those resources.  So was that the reason for your

11     trip, as you said earlier on?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In the second part of this letter, we see that there was very

14     good cooperation with the Ministry of the Interior of Sarajevo, and

15     suggestions are made that certain persons from this ministry, together

16     with the HVO, could procure some weapons.  Did you know Mr. Drina Faruk,

17     Nedzad Cengic?

18        A.   As for Mr. Drina Faruk, I have heard of him, his name is

19     familiar, but I haven't heard of Nedzad Cengic.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, at the end of this letter, it says:

21             "Our needs are based on 1.000 completely unequipped soldiers with

22     regards to the position which we are currently holding in our area of

23     responsibility at Stup and Dobrinja, we feel the greatest shortages in

24     anti-armour resources.  With current equipment, the brigade which

25     consists of 1650 men, divided into four battalions, possesses 250 barrels

Page 37717

 1     and very scarce quantity of ammunition."

 2             And then the 60-millimetre mortars are mentioned, and two

 3     hand-held rocket-launchers for which they need ammunition.

 4             Now, Mr. Pinjuh, do you know that those were the requirements and

 5     the needs, and is that what you've been telling us about so far, that

 6     those were the reasons for your trips?

 7        A.   Yes, that was what we needed in order to hold the line.

 8        Q.   And from this letter, we can clearly see the HVO Kralj Tvrtko

 9     Brigade, cooperation with the Main Staff of the Defence Department in

10     Mostar; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you to look at the next document, which is

13     2D 1178.  Would you explain what this is to Their Honours?

14        A.   Yes.  Well, because of the logistical needs for materiel and

15     technical equipment, we used this occasion to procure food and clothing

16     for the families of the defenders of Sarajevo, so this is a shipping

17     record which we received from Caritas at Siroki Brijeg.

18        Q.   Now, Witness, the food mentioned here, was it transported in a

19     truck that you said went out together with you on the 15th of April,

20     1993?

21        A.   Yes.  Later on, I learnt that they managed to reach Kiseljak.

22        Q.   Let's just go back a bit.  So that's when you were held back at

23     Jablanica, right, and the truck managed to get through to Kiseljak?

24        A.   Yes.  I don't know how they managed to do that, but I assume they

25     had the papers necessary from the humanitarian organisation.

Page 37718

 1        Q.   Witness, after April 1993, as you yourself said, you were not --

 2     no longer able to return to Sarajevo.  Did you have any contact

 3     whatsoever with members of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo, and if

 4     so, what were your contacts in the coming period?  And we'll limit

 5     ourselves until the 6th of November, 1993.

 6        A.   Well, the only contacts that I could have with the HVO of

 7     Sarajevo during that period of -- were via the radio Hamms in Grude and

 8     Ljubuski.  I would make an appointment for having a conversation with our

 9     liaison officer, and I would come in at that time, and with the radio

10     Hamms, I would be connected and I would ask whether there were any

11     wounded and things like that.

12             Now, in August I mentioned Mr. -- I met Mr. Slavko Zelic in

13     Grude, so I talked to him personally about what the situation was like in

14     Sarajevo, what was happening, and so on.

15        Q.   Just to refresh our memories, could you tell the Trial Chamber

16     again what Slavko Zelic was at the time after April 1993, at the time

17     when you met him?

18        A.   He was president of the Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   So that's the civilian part, the civilian section; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And what did he tell you?  What did he say the situation was like

22     in Sarajevo?

23        A.   He said that it was -- it had become impossible to have the HVO

24     in Sarajevo and that the BH Command demanded that the HVO be disbanded,

25     that the HVO soldiers should become part and parcel of the BH Army, that

Page 37719

 1     they should be one and the same army.

 2        Q.   So when you saw him, and that was at the end of August, you say,

 3     1993, did he tell you which lines were still controlled by the HVO in

 4     Sarajevo?

 5        A.   As far as I understood him, it held the same lines, but he did

 6     tell me that the line along the Miljacka River had been expanded by one

 7     kilometre.

 8        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, what happened on the 6th of November, 1993, in

 9     Sarajevo with your -- to your brigade?

10        A.   On the 6th of November, the BH Army launched an attack on all

11     positions, and the headquarters of the HVO of Sarajevo and the brigade,

12     and disarmed the HVO and the brigade, and they arrested all their

13     members.

14        Q.   Do you know who was arrested, specifically?

15        A.   The president of the HVO, Slavko Zelic, was arrested; the brigade

16     commander, Ivan Vulic; along with a few other people that I can't tell

17     you the names of now.  I can't remember.

18        Q.   As you were in Mostar yourself, or, rather, Medjugorje at that

19     time, tell me how you came to learn about this?

20        A.   First of all, the information came to me through the media, on

21     the news bulletins, and later on people talked about it -- or, rather, it

22     appeared in the press, and we heard what happened in Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Just to correct line 9 of page 28, you said Vulic, I believe, was

24     the name you mentioned, Slavko Vulic.

25        A.   No, Ivan Vulic was the name, and Slavko Zelic.

Page 37720

 1        Q.   I see, thank you.  So you heard about this on television, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And do you know what happened after that with the Kralj Tvrtko

 4     Brigade in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   The brigade was transformed into the B and H -- into a B and H

 6     Army brigade, which was called the Hrvatska Brigada, and the commander

 7     who was appointed to the brigade was --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So was the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo abolished, practically?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right, very well.  Now I'm going to ask you to look at some

13     documents about that.

14             Can we please look at document 2D 01 --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

16     understand how the brigade you belonged to was transformed.  It turned

17     into the Croatian Brigade of the ABiH.  From what we understand, there

18     was an attack on the positions of the HVO on the 6th of December, and

19     people are captured and disarmed.  Everybody was disarmed.  When the

20     Croatian Brigade was formed, were there weapons handed over to the Croats

21     again, were they told that they were a Croatian brigade as part of the

22     ABiH?  Is that how things happened or not?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of December, in the

24     morning, a special unit of the B and H Army and the police attacked the

25     positions and the headquarters of the HVO.  After that, members of the

Page 37721

 1     HVO were arrested and taken to certain rooms, such as the Alija Alagic

 2     School in Novo Sarajevo, which is where they kept them detained.  And as

 3     I later found out, a lot of people were beaten, abused.  They were forced

 4     to swallow the Croatian markings that they wore.  The Croatian flag was

 5     taken down and thrown away.  Then those people were individually placed

 6     in the new brigade which was part of the B and H Army, and it was named

 7     the Hrvatska Brigade, probably for some political reasons that I'm not

 8     aware of.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when the ABiH took control

10     of the brigade, were there casualties, dead or injured people?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no dead.  I know that

12     there were some wounded, yes, and some people were beaten.  When the

13     disarming took place, the HVO did not put up any resistance, any military

14     resistance.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  But this line that was

16     occupied by the Croats, was it held by the same people or were Muslim

17     ABiH soldiers put there to replace the HVO unit?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I heard, other units were

19     brought there to guard that line, and then later this new brigade was

20     supposed to again take up some of those lines.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Please continue, Ms. Nozica.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Witness, let us first make a correction.  On page 29, line 16,

25     you said that this intervention against the brigade was carried out by

Page 37722

 1     the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the MUP.  We don't have that in the

 2     transcript, that the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the MUP made this

 3     intervention in relation to the HVO brigade.

 4        A.   Yes, special units of the MUP.

 5        Q.   Can you please explain this?  The newly-formed Croatian Brigade,

 6     did it have a completely different status and composition than the HVO

 7     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?  Can you please explain the status and composition

 8     issue?

 9        A.   It had a completely different position within the B and H Army.

10     It was exactly the same as any other unit or formation within the B and A

11     Army.  I think it had some sort of a number, 141st or something

12     Infantry Brigade.  We were part before of the units in the Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina Army, but this new brigade was a part of the B and H Army.

14        Q.   And was the HVO unit practically part of the armed forces in the

15     defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16        A.   Yes, we were always considered to be a part of that.

17        Q.   If I understood you correctly, the newly-formed brigade was a

18     brigade of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can we now look at a few documents about these events.  These are

21     documents 2D 1193 -- can you please tell me when you find the document?

22        A.   I've found it.

23        Q.   This is a letter from Mr. Boban.  Through Mr. Pogarcic, his

24     adviser, that he's sending to General Francis Briquemont, the commander

25     of UNPROFOR.  The document is dated the 2nd of October, 1993, so this is

Page 37723

 1     before all of these events?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In this first part of the letter, Mr. Boban writes about the

 4     ultimatum that evidently the 1st Corps issued to the HVO at that time,

 5     and it talks about how important the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade was in the

 6     defence of Sarajevo, how many of its members were killed.  It talks about

 7     a large percentage, in terms of the overall percentage of the Croatian

 8     population, which is 8 per cent, and how many Croats were killed in the

 9     conflict, and he's asking for these activities to be stopped, the ones

10     that were leading to the abolishment of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and the

11     consequences of what -- of that, if that were to happen.  And it says

12     this is one of the most openly-addressed public calls to ethnic cleansing

13     and genocide against the Croats.  Later, did this actually take place?

14     The ultimatum was not withdrawn, and after that did it actually happen

15     that the brigade was abandoned, abolished, and that never existed again?

16        A.   Yes, the brigade was abolished, and you can see on the basis of

17     this letter that the heads of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna were

18     informed about the steps that the B and H Army would take in relation to

19     the Sarajevo HVO.

20        Q.   Can you look at 2D 01188?  That's the next document.  The

21     Presidency of the HDZ City Board is sending a letter on the 9th of

22     November, 1993, to the president of the B and H Republic and the

23     prime minister of the republic, but you can see from this first part that

24     it was a kind of public proclamation, where also all the events of the

25     16th of November, 1993, are explained.  But there is something very

Page 37724

 1     interesting that is said here about the attitude of the armija before

 2     these events, and this is somewhere in the second paragraph, third

 3     sentence, where it says:

 4             "For the contribution of the Croats in the defence of the city,

 5     as well as exceptionally good cooperation, 15 days ago the commanders of

 6     the HVO units were commended publicly by Dr. Karavelic, the commander of

 7     the 1st Corps ..."

 8             This is the gentleman that you mentioned who for a while was the

 9     deputy commander and then the commander?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Does this not indicate, in fact, Mr. Pinjuh, without us going

12     into any kind of speculation about why the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army did

13     that in that particular period --

14             MS. MOE:  Your Honours, if I may, I apologise for my interruption

15     again, but once again there is a leading question from counsel on

16     page 33, line 2:  "Does this not indicate, in fact ..."  And I again ask

17     for more openly-phrased questions.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]

20             THE COURT:  You are right.  Please rephrase your question,

21     Ms. Nozica.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Sir, does this document indicate that cooperation up until 15

24     days before the events with the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army was

25     professional?

Page 37725

 1        A.   I am convinced that it was professional from our side.

 2        Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask you to look at the next document.

 3     This is 1D 2173.  And please tell me when you've found the document.

 4        A.   I found it.

 5        Q.   All right.  This is another document.

 6             I would like to ask the Prosecutor to turn her microphone off, if

 7     possible.  We are being disturbed, and we can also hear everything, and

 8     that is not quite good.

 9             Anyway, this is another document from the 9th of November, 1993,

10     signed by Stjepan Pocernja [phoen].  It's sent to the president of the

11     republic, Franjo Tudjman, Mate Boban, Jadranko Prlic, Mr. Slobodan

12     Praljak.  They are all being informed about what happened with the HVO

13     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo.  Does this also confirm what you told

14     us?  You knew about what happened?

15        A.   Well, it was publicly known with what had happened in Sarajevo,

16     and everybody began to react, whoever was concerned about it, and they

17     asked for protection of the Croatian people in Sarajevo.

18        Q.   According to your knowledge, did a large number of Croats move

19     out of Sarajevo after these events?

20        A.   I think that this did have an effect on the relationship between

21     Croats and Bosniaks in Sarajevo and that Croats, for this reason, decided

22     to leave Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to look at document 2D 01179.

24     Witness, can you please tell us what this is about?  What is this

25     document?

Page 37726

 1        A.   This is a document issued in 1997 about all those who were --

 2     Croats who were killed defending Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   We have three HVO, HOS, and the Kralj Tvrtko Croatian Brigade

 4     insignia.  I'm only going to ask you about HOS.  At the time when you

 5     were a member of the brigade, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, did you cooperate

 6     in Sarajevo with the HOS?

 7        A.   We knew that it existed, but we did not think it was necessary

 8     for them to -- well, we thought a it would be good for them to join the

 9     HVO brigades, but actually they continued to operate under the direct

10     command of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,

12     because all this is very complex, the HOS was under the direct command of

13     the ABiH, was it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was part of their forces under

15     this name.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was the commander of the

17     HOS in Sarajevo?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Matanovic, something like that.

19     I'm not quite sure, but it's something that is easy to find out.

20     Matosin, something like that.  I knew who it was at the time.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this HOS unit, I guess that

22     there were also Croats?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, mostly Croats and Bosniaks.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were mostly Croats and

25     Bosniaks.  Do you know the ratio?

Page 37727

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were more

 2     Bosniaks than Croats, because the Croats mostly took up the high-ranking

 3     or leadership positions within the HOS, and that the Bosniaks, who

 4     accepted the HOS programme, constituted its forces.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were the HOS units

 6     deployed in and around Sarajevo that were part of the ABiH?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that they had lines

 8     that they were holding.  I think that they were billeted in a school that

 9     was used as a temporary war facility, and they were billeted there, they

10     were staying there.  I don't know what sort of tasks they were carrying

11     out.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Now, we have a list, as part of this document, that lists the

15     members of these three units.  This is a list of what?

16        A.   These are the defenders of the HVO who were killed, and then the

17     HOS defenders, and the defenders of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade.  All of

18     them were defending Sarajevo and were killed.  The Kralj Tvrtko Brigade

19     was later disbanded.

20        Q.   When we're talking about the members of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO

21     Brigade who were killed, the data refers mostly to 1992, and they

22     indicate the number of those killed from the Croatian Kralj Tvrtko

23     Brigade?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Sir, we have 100 names here in this list.  Are these definitive

Page 37728

 1     numbers?

 2        A.   I think this is a document from 1997.  Today, I think we have a

 3     complete record and that there were many more ethnic Croats who were

 4     killed in the defence of Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Now I'm going to move to a topic that deals with the convoy of

 6     citizens who left Sarajevo, so now I'm just briefly going to --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I believe Ms. Nozica

 8     made a mistake.

 9             I'm looking at the list of these hundred individuals who were

10     killed.  I can see that some were killed in 1992, others in 1993, and

11     also in 1994.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are three coats of arms, one

13     for those killed in 1992 and 1993 as members of the HVO, those who were

14     killed in 1994 were members of this new brigade that was part of the

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina Army, and there were some members of the HOS as

16     well.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, were most

18     of these people killed in 1992, in 1993, or in 1994?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of them were killed in 1992

20     and 1993.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I asked you to look at 2D 00454.  Witness, I would just like you

24     to tell me when you find the document.

25        A.   I have found the document.

Page 37729

 1        Q.   This is a document of the 7th of April, 1994.  It's already

 2     become an exhibit, so it's not necessary to go through it.  I'm only

 3     interested in one thing.  You mentioned the liaison officer of the HVO in

 4     Sarajevo, Mr. Rill, Anton, and at the top there is his name?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, April 7th, 1993.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   When the convoy of citizens was leaving Sarajevo, did you, the

 8     HVO Brigade in Sarajevo, have any assignments?  Did you help in any way

 9     when this was going on?

10        A.   Any time a convoy was organised, our military police from the

11     brigade was charged with taking the citizens to the convoy from wherever

12     they were departing from in Sarajevo, and we were always available to all

13     the humanitarian organisations, if they needed any assistance.

14        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Rill, did he have the task of

15     ensuring free passage for the convoy further on, upon leaving Sarajevo?

16        A.   Well, if he was included in the convoys, then that would have

17     been one of his --

18             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would like to avoid to do the same again and

19     again, but I would also like you -- to ask you, Ms. Nozica, and also the

20     witness, really to slow down, to speak only after a break after a

21     question, and then answer, because it is -- it cannot be followed.  And

22     it was by this Bench many times stressed that it is in your interest that

23     everything should be recorded completely, which is in your interests for

24     us to read and to know.

25             Thank you.

Page 37730

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, I am

 2     doing my best, and looking at the transcript as well, and I see that the

 3     questions and answers are being recorded.  But I assume it's a little

 4     more difficult to interpret.

 5        Q.   Now, I asked you yesterday to make pauses, Witness, between my

 6     questions and your answers, but we get carried away, I suppose.  I was

 7     asking you about what you knew about the role of Mr. Rill or, rather, the

 8     liaison officer, upon the convoy leaving Sarajevo.  Do you know what his

 9     duties were in that regard?

10        A.   His duties were to inform UNPROFOR about the convoy and to try

11     and get permission for its free passage through areas held by the HVO for

12     destinations in third countries or in Croatia.

13        Q.   Let's look at 2D 1190 now, please.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  You've

15     just said something in passing very quickly.  It may have escaped

16     everybody, but for me, because I'm listening to your every word.

17             If I understand properly, there were convoys leaving Sarajevo.

18     People would get into buses, because we can see there are numbers of

19     buses, and these people would leave Sarajevo.  And then you added

20     something, but very quickly, so quickly that it was difficult to follow.

21     You said that these people might go to Croatia or to third countries.

22     Does this mean that there was or there were people, Croats, Serbs, or

23     Muslims, I don't know, going from Sarajevo to Croatia or to third

24     countries?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, those convoys were.

Page 37731

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So these convoys were

 2     organised.  And did these people leave in order to go somewhere safe or

 3     did they go for other reasons?  You see, I'm very cautious in asking you

 4     all these questions.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people mostly went to take

 6     refuge somewhere where it was safe, because they were mostly civilians;

 7     women, children, and elderly persons.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that they

 9     mostly went for safety reasons.  So the people who would leave, did they

10     leave because they had decided to go or was there a plan, an agreed plan

11     for them to leave?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was done under

13     the Red Cross organisation, the convoy.  So as the lists were drawn up

14     stating -- now, who drew up the list stating who had the right to leave

15     in a convoy, I don't know.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You think that it was organised

17     by the Red Cross?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly, they were the protagonists

19     of this.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] We have just a little time before

22     the break, but we can look at the next document, which to a large measure

23     explains what Judge Antonetti was asking us about, and the document is 2D

24     1190.

25        Q.   Have you found the document?

Page 37732

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This is, in fact, a very long list of persons travelling to

 3     Croatia, as it says, whereas it is a programme to deal with sick

 4     children, the elderly, and the infirm, and it is organised by the Red

 5     Cross of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So this is an enormous list, and it says

 6     "Split, Cairo, Croatia, Kiseljak."  Anyway, we have the key.  It says

 7     "Trnis, Split, Zagreb, France."  It says where they're going.  It's an

 8     enormous list of names; right, Mr. Pinjuh?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You recognise individuals on that list who left with the convoy,

11     so let's look at page 26 now, please, and let me remind you that on

12     page 26, there is the name of Mate Krasic.  Do you know that he left?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, this document doesn't have a date.  It's an enormous

15     document.  There are children, children who are chronically ill, children

16     from various institutions, orphanages and so on, and a large number of

17     vehicles with the license plates.  Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber,

18     under this name "Mr. Krasic," and perhaps anything else that you know,

19     when this convoy was organised in Sarajevo and when it left?  Yes, go

20     ahead.

21        A.   I think this convoy was organised sometime in November 1992.

22        Q.   Was there perhaps a family member of yours leaving in the convoy?

23        A.   I think that was the convoy that my father left in.

24        Q.   He's not on the list?  We tried to find him, but you can explain

25     to us how that took place, the lists and so on.

Page 37733

 1        A.   When it came to my father, as an elderly man he was no longer

 2     able to -- we were no longer able to help him in Sarajevo because we were

 3     taken up with our military duties, so I requested that he be included in

 4     the convoy so that he could leave Sarajevo by bus, and that was done.

 5        Q.   Just one piece of -- more piece of information.  On page 51 of

 6     this document, the document is signed by --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that your father was

 8     an old man.  How old was he?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was born in 1930.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was 62, 63.  Well, that's

11     young.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he's my father, so --

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   But he wasn't a recruit or anything, so did you need permission

15     and papers from the authorities, allowing you to leave?

16        A.   Yes.  My father was retired in 1984 as an invalid.

17        Q.   All right.  Can you identify the author of this document on

18     page 51?  It says "Pero Butigan."  Do you know the man, and do you know

19     whether he was the president of the Red Cross at the end of 1992, as you

20     say, when this convoy left?

21        A.   What page did you say?

22        Q.   Page 51.

23        A.   Yes, I've found it, and I know the man personally, I know Pero

24     Butigan personally.  He was the president of the Herzegovina Red Cross.

25     Otherwise, he was a neighbour of mine in Sarajevo.

Page 37734

 1        Q.   And it says here that 2.075 individuals left on that particular

 2     occasion, and we have some additions with lists of children's names.  So

 3     you know that, do you, that this was a very large convoy?

 4        A.   Well, it was certainly a large convoy, and I know that it reached

 5     its destination.

 6        Q.   All right, fine.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]  Now, I might have 10 or 15 minutes

 8     more after the break, so I'd like to know whether we're going to take the

 9     break now, because I'm moving on to another area, my last area.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're going to have

11     a 20-minute break now.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, were you a member of any associations or

17     organisations linked to the rights of the defenders in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the Organisers of the Defence of the HVO

20     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I am the secretary of that organisation.  Let

21     me explain what kind of an association that is.  The association is

22     based -- or, rather, is bent on fighting for the rights of the fighters

23     of the Croatian Defence Council, the defenders, and to protect the truth

24     about the homeland war.  That is the main -- and the dignity of the

25     homeland war.  That's the main premise, and that where any laws that are

Page 37735

 1     passed, are passed in agreement with and looking out for the defenders.

 2        Q.   As a member of this association, were you included in the

 3     drafting of any provisions regulating the rights of the defenders?

 4        A.   We always advocate suitable provisions to regulate the rights of

 5     the defenders, so yes.

 6        Q.   Are you a member of this association on behalf of the defenders

 7     of the HVO, the defenders of Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Would you now take a look at document 2D1182, please.  Have you

10     found the document?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   It's a decree for pension requirements of members of the former

13     Army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and civil servants and

14     employees of the former Federal Ministry of Defence, amendments to the

15     decree on entitlement to an old-age pension under favourable conditions,

16     et cetera.  Would you explain to the Court what kind of decree this is?

17        A.   This is a decree which the Government of the Federation

18     proclaimed in order to enable former members of the Army of the

19     Federation, higher-ranking commanders, generals, brigadiers, and

20     defenders who had received decorations, that they can be entitled to an

21     old age pension under favourable conditions.

22        Q.   Now, does this decree regulate -- does it say what decorations

23     are necessary, what commendation comes under the category which would

24     enable persons to gain benefits?

25        A.   Yes, this decree did stipulate the decorations, medals, and so on

Page 37736

 1     would allow people to an entitlement to an old age pension under

 2     favourable conditions.

 3        Q.   Look at Article 1, please, now of this decree, and does it state

 4     specifically what those commendations include?

 5        A.   Yes.  Article 1 -- no, Article 1 does not specify, but they are

 6     listed under the law, the law governing decorations and commendations,

 7     and that law was passed in 2005.

 8        Q.   Now, point 2 of Article 1, does it mention that particular law,

 9     the law you just mentioned, the Law on Special Rights of Recipients of

10     War Commendations and Decorations?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You also said that the decree regulates, and this what it says in

13     point 3 of Article 1, which military positions entitle people to this

14     kind of pension?

15        A.   Yes, that is enumerated here in Article 1.

16        Q.   Now let's take a look at Article 7, and could you please tell us

17     what the dead-line was for responding to this decree?

18        A.   They were duty-bound of complying by the 31st of March, 2007, and

19     it stemmed from the day the law was published in the Official Gazette.

20        Q.   Now could we look at 2D1181, and could you explain to the Court

21     what that was about?  2D01181 is the number of the next document.

22        A.   This is the same decree published again by the Government of the

23     Federation in the Official Gazette due to certain changes, or, rather,

24     amendments to this -- to the decree, but it specifies more or less the

25     same rights.

Page 37737

 1        Q.   Look at Article 4.  Is the dead-line, the date, changed?

 2        A.   Yes.  The dead-line for putting in a request has been extended to

 3     2007, the 3rd of September.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, 2D1180 is the next document number I'd like us

 5     to look at.  Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this

 6     document is, and what does it actually explain?

 7        A.   This is a document issued by the Federation Government or,

 8     rather, the Ministry of the Defenders of the Government of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these are all the duties carried out by the

10     defenders of the homeland war, and all of those who participated in the

11     war would have special terms for retirement.  And these are now those

12     participants from the Croatian Defence Council.

13        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where all the names of

14     the establishment duties and the ranks are listed that refer to the HVO?

15        A.   They are under item 3 and 4, where it is stated precisely at what

16     level of the unit the person commanded and what their establishment rank

17     was, based on which their retirement pension calculation was carried out.

18        Q.   According to this regulation, could anybody receive early

19     retirement by the head or minister of the HVO Defence Department?

20        A.   According to this regulation, they're not listed, so they could

21     not achieve their right to early retirement.

22        Q.   All right.  Let us look at the last document, and that is

23     2D01183.  Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this law has

24     to do with this previous regulation that we looked at?

25        A.   This is the Law on Special Rights of Recipients of War

Page 37738

 1     Decorations and Awards and Their Family Members, and it provides for the

 2     decorations that are included in these rights, and they would be

 3     receiving remuneration, up to 50 per cent of the average salary in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So those who were given these awards and decorations

 5     would have a right to that, as well as they secured their rights pursuant

 6     to the previous regulation that we looked at, the right to retirement.

 7        Q.   Could you please clarify for the Trial Chamber, even though this

 8     is obvious, when was this law adopted and who adopted it?  And this is on

 9     the last page.

10        A.   This law was suggested by the Government of the Federation, and

11     it was adopted by the Government and the Council of the Federation, and

12     it lists the awards on the basis of which these rights can be granted.

13        Q.   And in which article is this referred to?

14        A.   This is mentioned in Article 2 of this law.

15        Q.   I'm just going to remind you that in the document 2D1182,

16     Article 1, referring to decorations and the declaration or the regulation

17     on beneficial retirement, is referred to also in Article 5, so could you

18     please look at Article 5 now?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Are these decorations listed here, and can you please explain to

21     the Trial Chamber what this means?  There are two tables here.  Can you

22     explain them?

23        A.   The decorations are listed here which were given to members of

24     the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, this is the first column, and the second

25     column are decorations given to members of the Croatian Defence Council.

Page 37739

 1     And based on that, they secured their right to a supplemental monthly

 2     income.

 3        Q.   Now we're talking about document 2D1183 in the e-court

 4     collection.  Let us please wait until that appears on your screen, 1183,

 5     Article 5.

 6             There is the Order of the Croatian Tree Foil, the Order of Ban

 7     Jelacic, the Order of Nikolas Subic Zrinski, the Order of Prince Domagoj

 8     With Necklace.  Who would receive these decorations?  Who awarded these

 9     decorations?

10        A.   They were awarded by the Republic of Croatia to members of HVO

11     forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12        Q.   And those listed on the left-hand side, that would be the Order

13     of Freedom, the Golden Lily Badge, who was awarded these decorations --

14     who awarded them?

15        A.   This was awarded by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, does that mean that the right to this benefit,

17     retirement, was granted under the same conditions both to members of the

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the HVO?

19        A.   Yes, they were granted this right under equal conditions.

20        Q.   And, finally, you, as a member of the association that you

21     referred to earlier, do you know if members of the HVO and the

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina Army were granted the right according to this decree?

23        A.   Yes, they have been granted and have secured this right.  Those

24     who were awarded these decorations are receiving these pensions.

25        Q.   Other than these who received the decorations, is the retirement

Page 37740

 1     benefit granted to persons in the military hierarchy in the positions

 2     that we saw in the document 2D1180?

 3        A.   Yes, they also have been granted this right to military pension.

 4        Q.   I would just like to ask you this:  I was given information that

 5     on page 48, line 6, in the transcript the word is missing "Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina Army."

 7        A.   Where is that?

 8        Q.   No, you don't have to worry about that.  That was your answer or,

 9     rather, my question.  I asked you if the -- both members of the Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina Army and the HVO had the same right.  In line 6, we are

11     missing the word "Army."

12             Witness, thank you very much for your answers.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

14     examination-in-chief.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

16     question for you on the law and decree we have just seen.

17             I discover the existence of this text today, unfortunately.  Had

18     I been made aware of it beforehand, I could have put questions who came

19     to testify before you, people who were involved in the political life of

20     the country, but this is not the case, and we are faced with these

21     documents at the last minute.  This is why I'm putting this question to

22     you.  I don't know whether you will be able to answer this question.  I

23     hope you can, because you told us a while ago that you had been the

24     secretary of an association of people who got together to defend their

25     rights to a pension after the war.  Therefore, in this capacity I believe

Page 37741

 1     you have some understanding of these matters.

 2             By looking at the law which was adopted in Parliament, which is

 3     on document 2D1183, in Article 1 it is said that this applies to people

 4     that have died or who are missing, members of the BiH and members of the

 5     HVO also, for their role as servicemen between the 18th of September 1991

 6     and the 23rd of December 1995.  Did you attend these Assembly sessions

 7     when these were discussed in Parliament or not?

 8        A.   Yes, this law was discussed in Parliament and was adopted in both

 9     chambers of the Federation Assembly or Parliament.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you follow what was going

11     on in Parliament?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not engaged in any way in

13     reference to this law on military decorations.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you had followed what was

15     going on in Parliament, well, then we would have had this on the

16     transcript.

17             We had as an exhibit a decision by the Constitutional Court, who

18     declared the HVO illegal.  It would be interesting to see what this

19     decision contained, since the HVO had been declared illegal, since the

20     HVO had played a part in defending the country.  So this was probably

21     addressed in Parliament.  It would have been interesting to get an

22     insight into this.  But since you didn't follow this, you are unable to

23     answer.  We may be able to elicit answers from other witnesses who will

24     come at a later stage.

25             Now, this is my last question.  You, yourself, did you receive a

Page 37742

 1     pension?  Because you had been an HVO fighter in Sarajevo for some time,

 2     you may have received a decoration.  I don't know.  Whatever the case may

 3     be, are you currently receiving a pension or will you receive a pension?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 5     retired on the basis of the decoration, the Order of the Croatian Tree

 6     Foil.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are getting a pension

 8     because you were a combatant and part of the HVO and a member of the

 9     Croatian Clover, the Order of the Clover.

10             So I shall now put the question to other Defence counsel.

11             Mr. Coric's Defence counsel.

12             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

13     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Ibrisimovic.

15             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, it's been a while

18     now since we've heard you.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

20     Honours.  I believe I did speak yesterday, or said a couple of words, at

21     least.

22             We have no questions for the gentleman, but we do wish to thank

23     him for coming here to give his evidence.  And we wish him good luck and

24     safe travels.

25             Thank you.

Page 37743

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

 2             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             The Defence of General Praljak also does not consider it

 4     necessary to question this witness, and I would also like to thank the

 5     witness for coming here.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Petkovic

 8     does consider it necessary to put some questions to this witness, because

 9     I believe that we have an exceptionally rare situation to hear somebody

10     who was in Sarajevo during the war, and who cooperated with the Bosnia

11     and Herzegovina Army, and who can provide some relevant information to us

12     about the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  My questions are going to deal

13     with the clarification of two statements by the witness.  Another topic

14     will be the attack of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the MUP on

15     the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo.  And the third topic, if there is time, will

16     deal with some regulations about the defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina to

17     see at what age somebody could be engaged in the army, and some other

18     issues pertaining to the Law on National Defence.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

20        Q.   Mr. Pinjuh, my name is Vesna Alaburic, I'm an attorney from

21     Zagreb, and in these proceedings I am defending General Milivoj Petkovic,

22     and I would like you to clarify one of your statements, as it seemed

23     very, very important to me.

24             When you spoke about your second exit from Sarajevo or departure

25     from Sarajevo, and when you mentioned that you were stopped at

Page 37744

 1     check-points near Konjic and Jablanica, you said how mostly you were

 2     surprised because the check-points were in the free territory of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The statement was recorded on page 21.  Can you

 4     please tell us, Mr. Pinjuh, whether these were Army of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina check-points?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does that mean that you meant in the area that was under the

 8     control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was considered free

 9     territory, in your opinion?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned today how, for you, it was not in

12     dispute that the HVO was a component part or an ally in the armed forces

13     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This was on pages 30 to 31 of the transcript.

14     Did I understand you correctly?

15        A.   Yes, you understood me correctly.  I was convinced that we were

16     an integral part of the forces of -- the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17        Q.   My colleague showed you a decree earlier.  You don't need to look

18     for it.  I'm going to tell you, on the basis of the transcript, what

19     document this is.  2D1181.  And in that document, Mr. Pinjuh, it says

20     that the decree refers to, I quote:

21             "Members of the former Army of the Federation of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina (the Croatian Defence Council) and the Army of the Republic

23     of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

24             Mr. Pinjuh, can you please tell us, according to what you know,

25     was there ever any dilemma that the HVO and the Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 37745

 1     Army were equal components of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2        A.   In all the regulations, they are treated as equal.

 3        Q.   Earlier, His Honour Judge Antonetti put a question to you about a

 4     decision of the Constitutional Court, this is page 50 of today's

 5     transcript, which allegedly proclaimed the HVO as an illegal

 6     organisation, and His Honour Judge Antonetti asked how come that members

 7     of the HVO were granted certain rights.  I'm going to ask you to clarify

 8     this Constitutional Court decision of the Constitutional Court of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10             If you know, did this decision refer to the constituting the

11     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna so that the Constitution would then

12     say that that decision on the Constitution of the HZ-HB was illegal?

13        A.   I really don't know anything about that document.  I cannot

14     answer that question.

15        Q.   Are you aware that the Constitutional Court of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina ever adopted any decision under which the HVO, as an

17     organisation, either a civilian or a military organisation, would be

18     declared an illegal one?

19        A.   I don't know when the Constitutional Court adopted that decision,

20     I really don't know, but I know that the lines that we held in Sarajevo

21     in 1992 and 1993 we were holding with the agreement -- I mean, we were

22     entrusted with guarding a certain part of Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness, in my set of documents, and I'm going

24     to begin with document 3 in that set, and this is number 4D1266 -- take a

25     look at that document, please, because I am following on from the

Page 37746

 1     examination-in-chief, in which you said, Mr. Pinjuh, that in August 1993,

 2     you talked to the commander, Mr. Zelic -- yes, Zelic, and he told you

 3     that the BH Army wanted to disband the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo.  And also

 4     we saw a document, 2D1193 was its number, in which at the end of -- at

 5     the beginning of October, Mr. Boban, among other things, speaks about the

 6     danger of abolishing the HVO Brigade.

 7             Now let's take a look at this document together.  This comes from

 8     the Security Administration of the Supreme Command Staff of the

 9     Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it is dated

10     the 26th of September, 1993.  It is signed by the chief, Jusuf Jasarevic.

11             To start off with, please, Mr. Pinjuh, tell me whether you knew

12     the Supreme Command Staff of the BH Army and that it had a Security

13     Administration?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is this name familiar, Jusuf Jasarevic?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, did you have any knowledge of information

18     at all to the effect that the Sarajevo Brigade would be the subject of

19     special interest and processing by the Security Administration of the

20     Supreme Command Staff?

21        A.   I think that they did that continuously.  They had intelligence

22     surveillance of our units on a continuous basis, and I think that they

23     took our members, the members of units, for interviews as well.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, in that document, let's look at page 2, and I'd

25     like to draw your attention there to a particular section at the end of

Page 37747

 1     the first paragraph.  The Security Administration notes that the

 2     irresponsible relationship and attitude of the HVO soldiers to defence

 3     tasks on the right bank of the Miljacka River, failure to carry out guard

 4     duty at night, allowing the Serbs to pass through, and so on and so

 5     forth, that is what is referred to.

 6             Now, tell me, Mr. Pinjuh, you told us that the HVO Brigade in

 7     Sarajevo performed all its tasks and responsibilities in the defence of

 8     Sarajevo in the most professional manner.  Do you stand by that state,

 9     despite what the Security Administration says here about HVO soldiers?

10        A.   I stand by what I said, that the HVO defended the line

11     professionally and did so successfully.

12        Q.   All right.  Now look at the next document, 4D1500 is the number,

13     and it is an order by the commander of the Main Staff, Rasim Delic, dated

14     the 28th of October, in which, in point 1 it says:

15             "Disband the HVO Main Staff of the City of Sarajevo with the

16     headquarter support units and all HVO municipal staffs established on the

17     municipality of the city of Sarajevo."

18             And then under number 2, it says:

19             "The former Kralj Tvrtko HVO Brigade is formed from the

20     territories of...," and I shall skip that part, "shall be renamed and

21     recorded from now on under the name of the Kralj Tvrtko Croatian

22     Brigade."

23             And then they go on to say that this Kralj Tvrtko Croatian

24     Brigade is hereby placed under direct command of the BH Army 1st Corps.

25     And in point 4, it says that these tasks should be implemented

Page 37748

 1     immediately.  And under point 2 of Chapter 4, it says that the Croatian

 2     Brigade should be entered in the schedule of the basic mobilisation plan

 3     of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 1st Corps

 4     section, straight away.

 5             Now, having seen this order, Mr. Pinjuh, can you tell us whether

 6     that was the order by the commander of the BH Army stating that an attack

 7     should be launched on the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo, to have that brigade

 8     disbanded and renamed into a Croatian brigade and put under the 1st Corps

 9     of the BH Army establishment?

10        A.   From this order, yes, we could say that that was their intention.

11        Q.   Now let's look at the next document, which is 4D1714, and that's

12     the last document in my set.  Once again, the Security Administration of

13     the Supreme Command Staff of the BH Army.  It is dated the 25th of

14     November, 1993, and here we have an analysis of what has been achieved,

15     what was done.  Let's try and focus on some points that I consider to be

16     most significant, because it's rather a long document and we don't have

17     time to go through the whole of it.

18             Anyway, in the introduction, it says that:

19             "The associate forces of our army and the MUP carried out a

20     blockade of the HVO Main Staff and units, and parts of the defence lines

21     in Sarajevo that were held by members of the HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade."

22             Tell me, please, Mr. Pinjuh, is that precisely what you described

23     earlier on, whereby the special MUP units and the BH Army attacked HVO

24     units?

25        A.   Yes, those were my -- that was my information.

Page 37749

 1        Q.   Now we come to the next observation made.  After all the plan

 2     measures were implemented to disband the Main Staff --

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Alaburic.  This may be again a

 4     linguistic point.

 5             In this report, I read the words "carried out a blockade on the

 6     HVO Main Staff and units, and parts of the defence line."  You have used

 7     the word "attack."  Is it one and the same word in Croatian?  If not, it

 8     might be interesting to know the difference.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you my

10     thoughts on those words now, and concepts, and perhaps Mr. Praljak, as a

11     well-known linguist, could explain this better.  But let me tell you of

12     my understanding of this.

13             An attack can be launched in different ways.  You can carry out

14     an attack in different ways.  You can carry out an attack by blocking

15     someone in a facility or feature, or at a certain position, and then make

16     it impossible for that other party to act in any way, and then as that

17     party surrenders, you disarm them, and then go ahead that way.  Now, in

18     my opinion, what happened in Sarajevo was that kind of attack.

19             Of course, there can be other types of attack with shooting and

20     more aggressive taking control of a territory, if the party wish to

21     block -- puts up resistance.

22             Now, as the witness said there was no armed resistance, that

23     means that this type of attack, which is called here a blockade, was put

24     in place, and the BH Army and the MUP units achieved their goal that way.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

Page 37750

 1             Mr. Pinjuh, can you confirm this?  Is this the way you understood

 2     it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how I understood it.

 4     And I think that the Geneva Conventions were violated on captured members

 5     of the other side, where they were beaten, taken into detention, as

 6     expressed in these reports, and everything took place on the day when the

 7     blockade was put in place; and the leadership of the HVO, President Zelic

 8     was arrested, so was Commander Vulic, and part of the leadership was --

 9     were also arrested.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  We've had that.  As I'm concerned, you can

11     continue, Ms. Alaburic, but I don't know whether the President wants --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             Witness, it may be more complicated than you think.  I'm sure

14     that you don't have all the material available to you.  You call this an

15     attack, but there could be another aspect to it.

16             Did you know that there was an international conference being

17     held in Geneva, aiming at finding solutions to all these problems?  Did

18     you know that or not?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You didn't know,

21     for instance, that as part of that work, it was envisioned that, say, HVO

22     units would be incorporated into the ABiH and that ABiH units would be

23     incorporated into the HVO?  Did you know that or not?

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but

25     can we clarify one point here?  The Vance-Owen Plan was not to integrate

Page 37751

 1     them, that is to say, the HVO units in certain areas into the BH Army and

 2     vice versa, but to resubordinate them, so for something to happen which

 3     actually did occur in Sarajevo throughout.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

 5             One last question.  Did you know, sir, that Mr. Prlic sent a

 6     letter to Mr. Izetbegovic along those lines?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know Mr. Prlic, no.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You did not know.  Very well.

 9             Ms. Alaburic.

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, let's see what the Security Administration goes on to say

12     further on, and the next sentence in that same paragraph is this:

13             "After that, all planned measures were carried out to disband the

14     HVO Main Staff and to transform its existing brigades into the Croatian

15     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade under the command of the 1st Corps."

16             Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, is that precisely what happened, to

17     the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   Yes.  The brigade was established later on, the Kralj Tvrtko

19     Brigade, and it was under the command of the 1st Corps.

20        Q.   And now the next sentence reads as follows:

21             "A staff of this brigade was created and a commander appointed,

22     and the appointment of other commanders is ongoing, as well as the

23     take-over of defence lines held by the former HVO."

24             Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, to the best of your knowledge, does

25     that correspond to what the realistic situation was?

Page 37752

 1        A.   I think that when they established the brigade, it did carry out

 2     the orders of the 1st Corps.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in paragraph 2, roughly the middle of the second

 4     paragraph, it says as follows, that:

 5             "Seven members of the Main Staff of the HVO were arrested in

 6     Sarajevo," and I'm going to mention their names, which are mentioned in

 7     brackets:  Slavko Zelic, Ivan Vulic -- Ivan Vulic, V-u-l-i-c, V for

 8     Victoria, u-l-i-v, Tomislav Kokar, K-o-k-a-r.

 9        A.   Kokar, it was.

10        Q.   Yes, Vinko Bosnjak, Zeljko Jukic -- Vinko Bosnjak, Zeljko Jukic,

11     and Zeljko Maric.

12             Now, tell us, Mr. Pinjuh, to the best of your knowledge, were

13     those indeed the commanders of the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo who were

14     arrested?

15        A.   Ivan Vulic was the brigade commander.  Tomislav Kokar was the

16     assistant for security.  Vinko Bosnjak was the chief, and Slavko Zelic

17     was the president, and Zeljko Jukic was the deputy president of the HVO

18     in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Now, it goes on to say that a criminal report was filed against

20     Slavko Zelic and that the other persons expressed the obligatory loyalty

21     to the BH Army and were included into the newly-formed Croatian

22     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade through the appropriate operative measures.  Now,

23     tell us, is that true, was a criminal report filed against Mr. Slavko

24     Zelic?

25        A.   I think so, yes, but I'm not quite sure.

Page 37753

 1        Q.   All right, fine.  So you don't know what happened next, do you?

 2        A.   I think that Ivan Vulic, as brigade commander, was never engaged

 3     in the newly established brigade.

 4        Q.   All right.  Fine.  Thank you for those answers, Mr. Pinjuh.

 5             And now I would like to ask you, as somebody who was in Sarajevo

 6     and closely cooperated with the BH Army there, to try and help me

 7     understand some documents better, and these documents are already

 8     exhibits, they've already been admitted into evidence, but I think it

 9     would be an important thing for the Judges to see them.

10             The first document is 4D409, and that is a decree law on the

11     Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Pinjuh.  Can

12     you help us to understand Article 2 of that decree law better?  And this

13     is how it reads:

14             "The Republic's armed forces shall comprise of the Army of the

15     Republic, herein after the Army.  In the event of war, the Armed Forces

16     shall be, in addition to the Army, the police and armed units which shall

17     be placed under the united command of the Republic's armed forces."

18             Paragraph 2:

19             "The armed units described under para 1 herein shall be

20     considered to be workers engaged in securing enterprises and other legal

21     entities and the employees of the Customs Service and other frontier

22     organs."

23             My question to you, Mr. Pinjuh, is this:  If we wish to define

24     the status of the members of the armed forces of the BH Army, which in

25     these proceedings can be of importance, that is to say, whether somebody

Page 37754

 1     has the status of a POW or not, then in a broad manner we should try to

 2     establish whether somebody was indeed a member of the armed forces or

 3     not.  So am I interpreting this correctly, that this concept does not

 4     only refer to the soldiers of the BH Army, in the narrow sense of the

 5     word, but to all persons enumerated here as being members of the armed

 6     forces?  If you can't comment on that article, we can move on.

 7        A.   I think this second paragraph relates to the persons who had a

 8     work obligation; that is to say, they weren't directly in the military

 9     units, but they had a work obligation.

10        Q.   So are you saying that work obligations were considered to be a

11     contribution and part and parcel of the country's defence?

12        A.   Absolutely so.

13        Q.   All right.  We'll be able to see that in the next document, which

14     is 4D408, which is a decree law on defence, the defence of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm going to ask you, Mr. Pinjuh, about some

16     details.

17             For example, in Article 5 of that decree, it says that the

18     Republic, through its ministries and other Republican organs in the area

19     of defence, in the realm of defence, directs the resistance of the people

20     during wartime.

21        A.   I apologise, but I haven't found that yet.

22        Q.   Very well.  It's Article 5.

23        A.   What page is that?

24        Q.   It says page 5 of the Official Gazette, but look at the article,

25     sir.  It's Article 5, and the document number is 4D408, and it's on

Page 37755

 1     page 2.  You'll find Article 5 on page 2, and it says:  "Directs the

 2     resistance of the people in wartime."

 3             And I'm interested in that, the resistance of the people in

 4     wartime.  Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, does this provision have anything

 5     to do with the total national defence concept and social self-protection,

 6     as was in place in the former Yugoslavia?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know if I can answer that question, how the

 8     Territorial Defence was organised.  I'm not sure I know how to answer

 9     that.

10        Q.   I wasn't asking you about the Territorial Defence.  I was asking

11     you about the concept of total national defence and social

12     self-protection, that concept.

13        A.   Well, yes, that was a concept that was mentioned in the former

14     Yugoslavia very frequently, and exercises and training courses were

15     conducted, and so on.

16        Q.   That according to that concept, each citizen of the country,

17     after a certain age, had a specific role in the defence of their country,

18     they had special rights and duties?

19        A.   Yes, I knew that.

20        Q.   All right, very well.  Let us now look at Article 51.  Let's see

21     at what age did a person start having certain duties.

22             It says here:

23             "All citizens between 15 and 60, men, or 55, women, have the

24     right and obligation to train for defence -- to attend training."

25             Mr. Pinjuh, I'm interested here, at this age of 15.  Did you know

Page 37756

 1     that was the age in Bosnia and Herzegovina at which a person could start

 2     being trained for the defence of the country?

 3        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 4        Q.   In these proceedings, we very often had --

 5             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             The last line on questioning from Counsel Alaburic, to the

 7     Prosecution, seems to be outside the scope of the direct examination, so

 8     we're asking for an explanation on that.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you are asking

10     questions, and I fail to see the relevance of those questions.  Maybe

11     this is not the right witness for them.  If you want to waste your time,

12     you're free to do so, but I don't think this is the right witness for

13     that.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you'll permit me

15     an explanation.

16             We have spent a lot of time in this courtroom discussing whether

17     under-age persons were detained in Heliodrom, Dretelj, or in any of the

18     prisons under the control of the HVO, and I think that this question,

19     asking what happens with under-age persons and what their role was in the

20     defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is one of the key questions in these

21     proceedings.  If you think differently, I am very sorry, but I really do

22     consider this to be one of the main questions, and I believe that it is

23     my task in these proceedings to prove that people of 15 did have certain

24     duties in the defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And I would like to say

25     that up until 2000, this was totally in accordance with the International

Page 37757

 1     Convention on the Protection of Children in Times of War, and so on and

 2     so forth.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understood you, and I'm going

 4     to show that I understood, because I'm going to ask the witness.  Were

 5     they individuals aged 15 or 16 who were combatting with you in Sarajevo;

 6     15, 16, or 17?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not accept under-age members

 8     in the brigade.  We took care that we accepted only those as members who

 9     had served their military term of duty in the Army of Yugoslavia.

10             Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

11             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The remark from the

12     Prosecution did go to the line of questioning being outside the scope of

13     direct examination, so that was our concern, and I don't think that

14     counsel has replied to that.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will see

16     whether some time should be deducted from Ms. Alaburic's time and

17     credited to the time for examination-in-chief.

18             Continue.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, basically I have

20     finished my cross-examination, in view of the fact that the witness said

21     that he's not aware of these regulations about the age limits.  I have no

22     intention of putting him -- to him any questions about the armed forces

23     of the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24             Mr. Pinjuh, I would like to thank you for your questions.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question.  Let's

Page 37758

 1     go back to document 4D1266, drawn up by Jusuf Jasarevic.

 2             Sir, it's an ABiH document, isn't it, showing the views of the

 3     party that was the adversary of the HVO.  Have you found the document?

 4             I'm interested in the second line there, where Mr. Jusuf mentions

 5     clashes between the HVO and the ABiH in Central Bosnia and in the Neretva

 6     Valley.  When I saw that word "clashes," I asked myself what it meant

 7     precisely, because I don't know what word was used in your own language.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Okrsaj".

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "Okrsaj."  I see.  Does that

10     mean skirmishes or conflict?  From your point of view - we know that at

11     some point in time you were in Sarajevo and then you left Sarajevo - the

12     fighting between the HVO and the ABiH, was that "okrsaj" for you, just

13     sort of every now and then some skirmishes and then there would be a

14     lull, or did you have large-scale actions?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the scale of the

16     conflict was in the theatre in the different municipalities in Central

17     Bosnia.  As far as Herzegovina is concerned, I think that at the

18     beginning of the conflict, lines were set up right at the start, and

19     everybody was holding those lines until further notice, and then we had

20     clashes at those lines.  But I'm really not aware of the details.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I want to record on the

22     transcript that an official ABiH document mentioned skirmishes.

23             Let me move to the last document, 4D1714.  Towards the middle of

24     the document, earlier on Ms. Alaburic put a question to you, saying that

25     there was a criminal report against Slavko Zelic for six alleged crimes,

Page 37759

 1     but she did not read the rest.  It also appears that the three liaison

 2     officers were involved or were mentioned in the report, because the ABiH

 3     seems to incriminate Anton Rill for aiding the enemy.

 4             We've never seen Anton Rill.  This is the first time we've heard

 5     about him.  Was he that close to you that one could be led to believe

 6     that he was "collaborating" with the HVO, or was he neutral?  Would he

 7     just report to his chain of command the information he would get?  Why,

 8     in your view, is he being incriminated by the ABiH?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anton Rill was a liaison officer of

10     the HVO with UNPROFOR, the HVO Sarajevo, so he set up cooperation between

11     the UNPROFOR and the Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why is he being incriminated by

13     the ABiH?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there was a lot of

15     propaganda here and unfounded accusations.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you think it's propaganda.

17     Very well.

18             Is the Prosecution ready to start with their cross-examination ?

19             MS. MOE:  We're entirely in your hands, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you can start, and then

21     we'll have a break at 12.30.  Since you have two hours, we can continue

22     tomorrow.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like a

24     clarification.  Perhaps I didn't understand sufficiently, but I think

25     that in the beginning you said that there would be enough time allocated

Page 37760

 1     for the cross-examination, the same amount of time that was allocated for

 2     the examination-in-chief.  And so in view of the fact that I had used

 3     only one hour and fifteen minutes, does that mean that the Prosecution

 4     will have that same amount of time for the cross-examination or that

 5     original starting period of time that was allocated?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Bench is going to discuss

 7     the matter.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleagues would like the

10     Prosecutor to state their views.

11             Madam, here is the problem:  Mr. Stojic's Defence had scheduled

12     two hours.  The Trial Chamber issued a decision granting two hours to the

13     Stojic Defence and two hours to the OTP, but the Stojic Defence realised

14     that two hours may be too much.  It could be a waste of time that could

15     be better used with other witnesses.  Therefore, the Stojic Defence

16     decided to shorten its time and use only one hour and fifteen minutes.

17     Now, they say, "Well, if I used one hour and fifteen minutes, there's no

18     reason why the Prosecution should have two hours."  So that's the

19     problem.

20             What is your view?

21             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             The Prosecution view is that the time we have been allocated is

23     two hours for cross-examination, and we stand by that, but it might very

24     well be that we will be able to finish in a shorter time.

25             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours --

Page 37761

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Oh, I didn't see you.  You are

 2     at the back.  Usually, you are a front-bench, but you are the last one in

 3     the classroom today.

 4             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, perhaps relegated for naughty --

 5     Your Honour, perhaps relegated for naughty behaviour.  One never knows.

 6             But, Your Honour, in relation to this issue, it is my respectful

 7     submission that the spirit behind Your Honour's previous ruling, that

 8     there should be a symmetry between the time afforded for

 9     examination-in-chief and the time allocated for cross-examination, should

10     be honoured, not only as an incentive for all parties to be diligent with

11     the amount of time they use, and not to be wasteful or profligate with

12     time, but also when one looks at the mischief.

13             If the Defence have considered it appropriate to cut down

14     examination-in-chief and restrict it to those matters that are most

15     relevant in one hour and fifteen minutes, consistent with the spirit of

16     Your Honour's clear decisions, the Prosecution should be expected to

17     be -- fully challenge that evidence in the same amount of time.

18             Your Honour, let's put it differently.  If, prior to today, we

19     had formally -- I'm sorry?

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, if prior to today we had formally varied

22     our witness list and sought to cut down the amount of time we needed with

23     this witness, it would be completely expected and natural, in my

24     respectful submission, that Your Honours would have given a consequential

25     order which should have reduced the time available for cross-examination

Page 37762

 1     to the other Defence teams and also to the Prosecution.

 2             Your Honour, we are reviewing our witness list, and it may well

 3     be the case that in times ahead, we may well try to cut down the amount

 4     of time we need with certain witnesses.  I can't give any undertaking in

 5     relation to that at this moment, but we are certainly endeavouring to do

 6     that.  We don't want this trial to drag on indefinitely.  But in relation

 7     to this matter, it is my primary submission that one hour and fifteen

 8     minutes has been taken by lead counsel for Mr. Stojic in this case,

 9     consistent with the whole spirit underlying your decisions on the

10     allocations of time, the Prosecution should be given one hour and fifteen

11     minutes for cross-examination.

12             Now, Your Honours, if, as an accomplished advocate, some

13     tailoring needs to be done by the opposing party, that's quite usual.

14     It's quite common place to an advocate and it can be done on one's feet,

15     but if any prejudice is occasioned, I would invite Your Honours that we

16     can take an early break, my learned friend can be given the 20 minutes,

17     and in that break she can decide again what are the areas she wishes to

18     focus on in one hour and fifteen minutes to test the credibility of the

19     witness that has been called on behalf of Mr. Stojic.

20             Your Honour, unless I can assist you further, those are my

21     submissions on this matter, but I would ask that cross-examination be

22     limited to the amount of time used by the Defence for Mr. Stojic.

23             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.  I was just standing to my

24     feet to say that the Petkovic Defence supports what's said by Mr. Khan,

25     and, Your Honours, to regard the time provisionally allocated to the

Page 37763

 1     Prosecution as rigid is contrary both to the underlying rationale of

 2     Your Honour's directions, and also to what's an important element of all

 3     the directions been given that Your Honours have assured all of us and

 4     assured Your Honours yourselves throughout this trial that these

 5     guide-lines were to be applied with flexible according to the

 6     circumstances.  And inflex --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Stewart please speak up for the

 8     translation.  Thank you.

 9             MR. STEWART:  That's the first time in my life I've been asked to

10     do that, but I certainly will.

11             To apply the guide-line without that flexibility in this

12     particular case is contrary to the underlying rationale and, in the end,

13     will be wasteful.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may also be heard on the part of the Defence.

15             I support the previous submissions, but I should also wish to

16     bring to everyone's attention, especially the Trial Chamber's attention,

17     that in the past, whenever the Defence has gone beyond the stated time

18     limitations, the Prosecution has always demanded -- demanded, and I

19     underscore that word "demanded," that their time also be increased.  So

20     now that the Defence is taking less time because they've streamlined the

21     direct examination, they've perhaps cut some portions of it to save time,

22     for whatever reason, means that now the Prosecution's time should also be

23     limited.

24             So I think this is in keeping with the spirit and letter of your

25     previous rulings, and I think we cannot have inconsistent standards, one

Page 37764

 1     applied to the Prosecution and one applied to the Defence.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Then Mr. Coric's --

 4             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going

 5     to say just a couple of sentences.

 6             The first one is that I agree with everything that my colleagues

 7     have said, and the second one is that I do recall that on several

 8     occasions, when the Prosecutor completed his examination of the witness

 9     earlier than provided for on the list, the Presiding Judge said the

10     Prosecution used this amount of time, so the Defence has this amount of

11     time, always awarding the same time to the Defence as the Prosecution

12     used, unless there was special permission for the Defence to get more

13     time, but that always had to be specially approved.

14             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Your Honour, I'd

15     just like to say that I completely stand by my colleague and the

16     arguments that he has put forward.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, you may

19     intervene.  Then we'll have a break, and we'll issue our decision.

20             Yes, Mr. Stringer.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and I appreciate the

22     opportunity to address this issue, because it obviously could relate to

23     subsequent witnesses as well.

24             It's interesting that this has only happened for the first time

25     today, despite our having been in Defence cases for -- and through with

Page 37765

 1     Defence witnesses for many months.  I don't think it's necessary for the

 2     Trial Chamber at this moment to issue a broad, definitive ruling as to

 3     what's going to happen every time that a direct examination ends earlier

 4     than was previewed.  We spent a lot of time and a lot of writing on

 5     hypothetical or abstract issues.

 6             My suggestion is that since this is a new issue, let's think

 7     about it, without making any across-the-board rulings, and, most

 8     importantly, let's see whether the Prosecution needs more than an hour

 9     and fifteen minutes to cross-examine this witness.  If that turns out to

10     be the case, we'll ask for more time and the Trial Chamber can issue a

11     ruling.

12             It might -- as my colleague Ms. Moe has already said, it might

13     turn out that we don't need the entire two hours, and so let's just be

14     flexible.  Let's consider this witness and the Prosecution's needs today,

15     rather than engaging in a broader debate that might turn out to be

16     completely moot.

17             So that's my suggestion.  Thank you.

18             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I, of course, as always,

19     listen most attentively to what my learned friend --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, you know that we

21     don't like to have rebuttals, and this is already a response to a reply,

22     and that can go on forever, because then Mr. Stewart is going to want to

23     speak because in the meantime he may have thought of some things, same

24     for Mr. Karnavas, and here we go again, so this can be Wimbledon.

25             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I'm not a serve and volleyer, but it was

Page 37766

 1     our application, my objection.  Normally the opposing party can respond,

 2     and I'm simply being asked an opportunity to reply.  There has been a

 3     response by Ms. Moe, and of course then by Mr. Stringer.  And so I think

 4     it's fair, as it is my objection, I have the last word.

 5             Your Honour, this matter can be dealt with summarily.  Of course,

 6     the Prosecution have significant resources, and of course it will not

 7     prejudice them that much to engage in a tennis match of filing of

 8     motions, but this is a very straightforward issue which is predicated on

 9     the existing jurisprudence of Your Honours, of Your Honours.  I don't

10     think it, as a matter of principle, is appropriate to say -- to say,

11     well, let's see if the Prosecution need to use the time, and if not it is

12     moot.  I think it's right to set, at the outset, what is the time

13     allocated by the Prosecution.

14             Now, Your Honours, the one hour fifteen minutes is a ceiling, it

15     is a limit, it is not a floor.  Of course, if the Prosecution wish to sit

16     down after 15 minutes, that's their prerogative, but it's only right and

17     proper that before standing up and conducting a cross-examination, the

18     Prosecution should know the order of the Trial Chamber, and the Defence

19     should know exactly how much cross-examination time the party is being

20     given.

21             Your Honour, as I said before, this issue is -- and my submission

22     on this issue is completely based upon the jurisprudence and the logic

23     behind Your Honours' previous findings and rulings.  But it's quite often

24     the case that parties say they need five hours to cross-examine a -- to

25     examine a witness, and Your Honours say, no, two hours is appropriate.

Page 37767

 1     As a matter of logic, the converse also should follow.

 2             Your Honours have seen the scope of examination-in-chief, and I

 3     would ask that one hour fifteen minutes be ordered as the appropriate

 4     time given to the Prosecution to cross-examine, and the matter can be

 5     dealt with by way of an extemporaneous oral decision without a delay in

 6     this matter.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a 20-minute

 8     break, and we'll issue our ruling after the break.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will hand

12     down its oral decision.

13             The Trial Chamber would like to remind all and every one that the

14     Stojic Defence said that since they had had an hour and a quarter, they

15     wanted the OTP to have the same amount of time.  As a follow-up to this,

16     other Defence counsel supported Ms. Nozica's request.  The Prosecutor

17     replied and stated that he wanted to be allotted the time that had been

18     initially allocated, i.e., two hours, whilst stating that if need be, the

19     OTP could cut down on its time quite substantially.

20             The Trial Chamber would like to remind all and every one that in

21     its guide-lines, it had stipulated that the Prosecutor would have the

22     same amount of time as what had been allocated for examination-in-chief.

23             In this particular case, the Trial Chamber feels that in light of

24     the examination-in-chief and in light of the questions put by other

25     Defence counsel, that it is appropriate in this case to allocate an hour

Page 37768

 1     and a quarter to the Prosecutor.

 2             The Trial Chamber would also like to ask Defence counsel, in the

 3     future, if they intend to change the time allocated in the time they

 4     need, to let everybody know beforehand so that the Trial Chamber can take

 5     all appropriate decisions.

 6             The Trial Chamber would also like to ask the Prosecution, in the

 7     event that a given witness may require extra time, to seize the Chamber

 8     of this matter by providing its submissions and spelling out why this

 9     extra time is needed.

10             Therefore, as far as this particular witness is concerned,

11     Ms. Moe, you have an hour and a quarter.  Since you have seven documents,

12     I think you have ample time.

13             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Moe:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Pinjuh.  My name is Hedvig Moe.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   I am a lawyer with the Prosecution, and I will be asking you some

18     questions.

19             I'd first like to you look up one of the documents in the binder

20     that you discussed with Ms. Nozica, and that would be the binder that

21     you've already looked at, the bigger one, and it's number 2D01185.

22     2D01185.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It's the first document in the binder.

24             MS. MOE:

25        Q.   You've found it, Mr. Pinjuh?

Page 37769

 1        A.   Yes.  Just a moment, please.

 2        Q.   That document you already discussed with Ms. Nozica, and it is a

 3     document signed by Bruno Stojic.  It's from the Defence Department.  And

 4     we see, up in the left-hand corner, that it's dated December 5th, 1992,

 5     in Mostar, and to the attention of Mr. Slavko Zelic, and it regards --

 6     considers the appointment of Mr. Zelic to the commander of the brigade

 7     that you were with at the time.  And this document, did I understand you

 8     correctly that it was received at the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade at the time?

 9        A.   Yes, you understood me correctly.

10        Q.   And would the document have been received at the brigade on or

11     around or right after the date that it was written or sent off, being

12     December 5th, 1992?

13        A.   You're probably right.

14        Q.   How was it received?  How was it sent and received at the

15     brigade?  We can see, as I said, that it was signed by Mr. Stojic, and I

16     wonder what means of communication that was used.  Was it fax, was it

17     regular mail?

18        A.   I think somebody brought it to Sarajevo, but I'm not sure who.

19        Q.   So you are saying you think it was delivered by hand, by a

20     person?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Another document that you also looked at with

23     Ms. Nozica, and that has number 2D01777.  Sorry, 2D01177.

24             Do you have the document, Mr. Pinjuh?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37770

 1        Q.   As I mentioned, you talked to Ms. Nozica about this one as well.

 2     This is -- this goes to appointments to the Command of the brigade that

 3     you were with, and you are mentioned as number 1, "deputy commander,"

 4     I think it should be; is that correct?  And we see up again on the

 5     left-hand side, that it's dated December 29th, 1992, in Mostar, and we

 6     can see on page 2 of the document that again it's a document signed by

 7     Mr. Bruno Stojic.  And next to his signature, we can see that it says

 8     that it's to be delivered to the Command of the Brigade of Kralj Tvrtko,

 9     as well as the HVO main headquarters and the Personnel Administration.

10             Was this document also received at the brigade?

11        A.   When I left Sarajevo in January, I personally picked up this

12     document and brought it to the brigade.

13        Q.   So it had not been sent or delivered to the brigade beforehand;

14     is that what you're saying?

15        A.   No, no, it wasn't sent.  I delivered it.

16        Q.   And where did you -- where did you pick it up?

17        A.   The Personnel Department of the Defence Department in Mostar.

18        Q.   And then you brought it to Sarajevo; is that correctly understood

19     by me?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So that means you picked it up at the Defence Department in

22     Mostar; correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And that's where Stojic had his office; right?

25        A.   That was where the Defence Department was and that's where

Page 37771

 1     Mr. Stojic was as well.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So when you say you brought it back to the brigade,

 3     when was that?

 4        A.   Sometime towards the end of January 1993.

 5        Q.   Was that when you came back from a trip to get resources for the

 6     HVO Brigade in Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  One more document, still in the same binder.  It's

 9     number 2D01195.  This is also a document that you discussed with

10     Ms. Nozica.  We see that this one is signed by Slavko Zelic, the

11     commander of the Brigade of the Kralj Tvrtko, and we see up to -- on the

12     left-hand corner that it's going to the main headquarters in Mostar, and

13     it's dated February 25th, 1993, in Sarajevo.  And did I understand you

14     correctly that this document partly goes to the reason for your trip to

15     get resources for the brigade?

16        A.   Yes.  On the second occasion, we asked for the same resources.

17        Q.   Did this document arrive in Mostar at the HVO HZ-HB headquarters?

18        A.   It was protocoled, registered, so I think so, yes.

19        Q.   And where do you see that it's registered in Mostar?

20        A.   I apologise.  I thought it was the protocol in Mostar, but it

21     says "Kralj Tvrtko Brigade."  That's the seal.  So I don't know.  I

22     wasn't in that convoy.

23        Q.   So what you're referring to, just to clarify that, that's the

24     stamp up on the right-hand side of the document, and that refers to it

25     being sent from the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo; correct?

Page 37772

 1        A.   Yes, correct.

 2        Q.   And then you might have answered it already, but just to get a

 3     clear reply again:  Was this document received in Mostar at the HVO

 4     headquarters?

 5        A.   I assume that it was, because the people who took this document

 6     arrived.

 7        Q.   What do you mean by "the people who took this document"?

 8        A.   Well, I can see here that Damjan Moro, a commander of the brigade

 9     military police, left with this, and I met him in Mostar.

10        Q.   So where it does say that Moro left with this document?

11        A.   I don't know.  I know that I met him, I met Moro, who had left

12     Sarajevo.

13        Q.   So am I understanding you correctly that you knew Moro was going

14     on this convoy, you met him, and you think that he brought the document

15     with him from Sarajevo?  Am I understanding you correctly?

16        A.   Reading his name here, then I assume that it could have been done

17     by him.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up.

19     Thank you.

20             MS. MOE:

21        Q.   I'll move on to another document, Witness, and this is in the

22     little blue binder that you just got, the one on your right-hand side.

23     So in the little blue binder, it's number 2D00996.

24             And I'm being asked by the people assisting us here that,

25     Mr. Pinjuh, you please speak into the microphone so they can hear you for

Page 37773

 1     the interpretation.

 2             This is a document that you can see, on the first page in the

 3     B/C/S version and on the second page in the English version, is signed by

 4     Bruno Stojic again, and on the first page we see that it's dated March

 5     the 1st, 1993.  It's just one page in the B/C/S version.

 6        A.   [In English] Number?

 7        Q.   It's 2D00996.  You first have the English version, and behind the

 8     English version is the B/C/S version of the document.  Do you have it

 9     there, Mr. Pinjuh?

10        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  As I said, we can see that it's signed by

12     Mr. Bruno Stojic, and up in the left-hand corner we see it's dated the

13     1st of March, 1993.  And towards the end of the document, we can see that

14     it's going to the HVO main headquarters and to the Command of the

15     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade.  Can you see that, Witness?

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17        Q.   Did you receive this document at the brigade in Sarajevo?

18        A.   I can't answer that with any certainty, but I think that we ought

19     to have received this document.

20        Q.   Why do you think you ought to have received this document?

21        A.   Because the document indicates how mobilisation should be

22     developed of the brigade, and organised.

23        Q.   So this is information that you assume that the brigade had,

24     don't you?

25        A.   I assume that, yes.

Page 37774

 1        Q.   And can you say anything about how you assume the document made

 2     it to Sarajevo from Mostar?

 3        A.   I assume somebody brought it.

 4        Q.   So if you look just above, where it says that it's going to be

 5     sent to the main headquarters and to the Command of the Kralj Tvrtko

 6     Brigade, it says:

 7             "Summary from amendments of the mobilisation development to be

 8     delivered to:"

 9             Can you see that?  And is that the reason why you think it was --

10     it was brought by a person to Sarajevo?

11        A.   Well, if it arrived in the Personnel Administration of the

12     brigade, then I assume somebody brought it there.

13        Q.   Okay, thank you.  A document that goes to a bit of a different

14     issue.  We're still in the little binder that you have in front of you,

15     and it's number 2D01196.  It's a bit further to the back.  It's the last

16     document, it should be.  2D01196.

17             Do you have the document, Witness?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And this is, as we can see from the date on the left-hand corner,

20     it's from 7th of November, 1993, and it says : "To the attention of the

21     HVO Main Staff Mostar."  That's to the right, the right-hand corner, and

22     to the Citluk Forward Command Post.  And if you go look at the -- to the

23     end of the document, it is signed by Colonel Ivica Rajic.  Can you see

24     that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37775

 1        Q.   And Ivica Rajic, he was with the HVO, was he?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In Kiseljak; is that right?

 4        A.   In Kiseljak, right, yes.

 5        Q.   If you go to point or number 2 in the document, that refers to

 6     Sarajevo, and it goes to, it says in that paragraph after Sarajevo, it

 7     says:

 8             "According to the information we have, the Croats in Sarajevo,

 9     that is, Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, has been disarmed ..."

10             And it goes on about that same topic.  What I want to ask you

11     about, though, is the last sentence of that paragraph, and it says:

12             "We will obtain more information about the events in Sarajevo

13     from the XY side and forward it to you."

14             The XY side, that's the Serbs, isn't it?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.  We

16     didn't hear him.

17             MS. MOE:

18        Q.   You will have to repeat your answer, Witness, because the

19     interpreters didn't hear you, so we didn't get any interpretation.  So

20     could you please repeat what you said to my last question, which was

21     whether -- or I said:  The XY side, that was the Serbs, wasn't it?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   You don't know.  You've never seen references to the XY side in

24     any HVO documents?

25        A.   No.

Page 37776

 1        Q.   So when it says here -- it refers to these events in November

 2     1993.  We can agree on that, can't we, that you've been also talking

 3     about the 6th of November, 1993 disarmament of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   And then Rajic says:

 7             "We will obtain more information about the event in Sarajevo..."

 8             And do you also agree with me that that should be the same event,

 9     what happened on the 6th of November, 1993?

10        A.   Yes, that is the event.

11        Q.   And then he says that he will obtain more information about this

12     event that happened from the XY side.  Who is the XY side?

13             MR. KOVACIC:  The question is asked and answered, Your Honours.

14     This is my objection.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the question was asked

16     already.

17             MS. MOE:  I wanted to, Mr. President, if I may, I wanted to ask

18     the witness in the context of the actual document here, to see if we

19     could get closer to an answer to what the XY side reference might be.

20             MR. KOVACIC:  Context is absolutely the same.  In the first

21     instance, the paragraph of the document was read and the question was put

22     and answered, and now again the same story, asked and answered.

23             MS. MOE:  If I may, Your Honours, my question was:  Is the XY

24     side a reference to the Serbs.  The witness said he didn't know.  I'd

25     like to ask him an open question to try and find out if we can establish

Page 37777

 1     who the XY side was.  So I'm trying to get that question answered.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  At this point, Your Honour, it calls for

 3     speculation.  Now we're asking the witness to speculate.  If the witness

 4     doesn't know, he doesn't know.  You have to move on.  She has to accept

 5     the answer and move on, as opposed to trying to pose 50 questions, try to

 6     guess.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, the witness

 8     said he didn't know, and I myself, I wondered -- I wonder who this XY

 9     side was.  One could think they were the Serbs, but the witness said he

10     didn't know.  So please continue.  We've heard other witnesses.

11             Please continue.

12             MS. MOE:

13        Q.   Let me ask you a different question, then, Witness.  Did the HVO

14     and the Serbs in Sarajevo share information with each other while you

15     were there?

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, again, when she says "Serbs," what

17     does she mean by "Serbs"?  Are we talking about residents of Sarajevo,

18     are we talking about some military unit?  What is it?

19             MS. MOE:  Let me rephrase.

20        Q.   Did the HVO and the VRS in Sarajevo share information with each

21     other?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  At which point in time are we speaking of?  When

23     was the VRS operating in Sarajevo, especially when Sarajevo was under

24     siege?  I mean, in some cases, the Prosecution is prosecuting the VRS

25     commanders for the siege of Sarajevo.  Now are we to assume that there

Page 37778

 1     was a unit of VRS operating in and around Sarajevo at the time when the

 2     HVO was also working in conjunction with the ABiH?

 3             MS. MOE:  I'll rephrase again.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, one moment.

 5     You only come occasionally to the courtroom, so you're not that familiar

 6     with the proceedings.  I just wanted to inform you that basically

 7     constantly or continuously we have objections by the Defence counsel when

 8     the time-period fails to be mentioned.  Sometimes it is relevant;

 9     sometimes it is not.

10             So now that you know that, think of it when you put questions,

11     but keep in mind at all times the issue of time.  Well, we know that 1991

12     is not 1992, 1992 is not 1993, and 1993 is not 1994, et cetera.  We know

13     that the witness stayed in Sarajevo until 1992, that he was there early

14     1993, and then he left Sarajevo.  So there are things he knows and things

15     he doesn't.

16             This date is the 7th of November, 1993.  You should first ask him

17     where he was on that date, because if he was in Zagreb, or in Paris, or

18     London, he might not know anything.  So, please, ask him where he was,

19     and, thereafter, ask questions with a time-period to avoid objections by

20     the Defence, which is a waste of time.

21             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             The foundation for my question was meant to be the time-period

23     that the witness was in Sarajevo, and that has been established to --

24     well, spring of 1992, that's when his involvement with the HVO Brigade

25     started, and he was there until April 1993, or end of March, beginning of

Page 37779

 1     April, 1993.  So I will refer to, then, the Serbs, by the "Serbs" I'll

 2     refer to the Serb military, let me put it that way, and I'll ask again.

 3        Q.   While you were with the HVO Brigade of Kralj Tvrtko in Sarajevo,

 4     did you share -- did you and the Serb military share information?

 5        A.   What period do you mean, specifically, in 1992?

 6        Q.   I can break it down.  Let's say first from April 1992.  Let's

 7     start there.  April 1992 to June 1992, did the HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade

 8     or, excuse me, the HVO brigade or battalion that you were with, did you

 9     share information with the Serbs during that period?

10        A.   No.  In that period, we did not have any contacts with the Serb

11     Army, none whatsoever.

12        Q.   So am I understanding you correctly that you didn't give them

13     information and you didn't receive information from them, because there

14     was no contact; is that what you're saying?

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   So that is what you're saying?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Let's go to June 1992, say, to October 1992.  During that time

19     did the HVO in Sarajevo, to your knowledge, share information with the

20     Serb military?

21        A.   I don't know that the HVO shared information with the Serb Army

22     in June 1992, no.  If you're thinking of my brigade, no, absolutely not.

23        Q.   So I'm understanding you -- am I understanding you correctly that

24     your brigade, during that period, did not share information with the

25     Serbs; correct?

Page 37780

 1        A.   In that period, we did not have a brigade.  We had a battalion in

 2     the -- in Novo Sarajevo that had its assignments.

 3        Q.   So are you relating your answer, then, to the Novo Sarajevo

 4     Battalion, and you're saying the Novo Sarajevo Battalion did not share

 5     information with the Serbs?

 6        A.   Yes, I was the commander of Novo Sarajevo.  No, no.

 7        Q.   How about the other battalions; did you hear about any of those

 8     sharing information with the Serbs?

 9        A.   I don't believe that in the difficult position that prevailed in

10     Sarajevo, anyone wished to share information with the Serbs.  Only if ...

11        Q.   Sir, does that mean you didn't know about any sharing of

12     information with the Serbs during that period?

13        A.   I certainly didn't know.

14        Q.   My last question was related to up until October 1992.  We know

15     you stayed there until end of March, beginning of April -- I don't

16     appreciate the comments coming from the accused.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're quite right.  Please

18     continue.

19             MS. MOE:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Going back to where I was:  We stopped at October 1992 with my

21     last question, and you were there until March/April 1993.  Was there ever

22     a time that you know about sharing of information between the Serbs and

23     the Croats, and then I'm speaking about the military forces that were

24     stationed there?

25        A.   All I knew was the humanitarian route in the area of Stup, to

Page 37781

 1     leave that area leading to Kiseljak, and nothing else.

 2        Q.   Okay, thank you.  Just one clarification.  Am I right in

 3     understanding, from your examination or the examination by Ms. Nozica,

 4     that you were not in Sarajevo --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question on

 6     this document.

 7             Witness, we know that you were not in Sarajevo in November, that

 8     we know, but this is quite a striking document in many a way.  I'd like

 9     to hear your view, as a former battalion commander.

10             This Colonel, Ivica Rajic, is writing to the headquarters on the

11     7th of November to address the issue of Vares, that of civilians and

12     soldiers in Vares, and I'm amazed because he seems to be interested in

13     the situation in Sarajevo.  He is in Kiseljak, and from there he

14     learned - we don't know how - he learned that the Tvrtko Brigade was

15     disarmed, that there is a new commander, and so forth, and it appears

16     that he's requesting from the headquarters to seek information on the

17     events in Sarajevo, so it seems, by asking the XY side.  So he is in

18     Kiseljak.  He's interested in what's happening in Sarajevo, but I suppose

19     he has other tasks to deal with.  Do you have an explanation or not?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I can understand, in

21     Kiseljak there were refugees from Sarajevo.  They had their office in

22     Kiseljak, and probably when these things were happening, those families

23     asked for someone to give them information about what was happening in

24     Sarajevo, what was happening in general.  I assume that that would be the

25     only reason for something like that, because that is not in his area of

Page 37782

 1     responsibility.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your explanation is that on

 3     account of the situation in Sarajevo, the brigade having been disarmed,

 4     that could some impact on the refugees going to Kiseljak; is that your

 5     explanation?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the refugees were from

 7     Sarajevo.  They were in Kiseljak, they had their office in Kiseljak, so

 8     they could have requested to find out what was going on in Sarajevo, to

 9     see what was happening to their family members in Sarajevo.  These are

10     refugees from Sarajevo.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this could be an

12     explanation.  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Praljak.

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour

15     Judge Antonetti, you said that in this document, it says somewhere that

16     Ivica Rajic was asking from the Main Staff to give them information from

17     side XY.  It doesn't say anything like that.  They already have

18     information from XY and are passing that information to the Main Staff,

19     and are asking for some completely different things from the Main Staff.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you said has now been

21     recorded so that we can understand better.

22             Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

23             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   One more question to this document, Mr. Pinjuh.

25             We have established that it is from Ivica Rajic, that he signed

Page 37783

 1     it.  And it's correct, isn't it, that the Sarajevo HVO forces, they were

 2     within the zone of responsibility for Rajic?

 3        A.   I think that Rajic was the commander of the brigade in Kiseljak,

 4     and Sarajevo had its own area of responsibility.  I mean, not a zone, but

 5     it's a group.  The military authorities or competencies were separate.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Just one clarification.

 7             You've been talking about the events in Sarajevo at the beginning

 8     of November 1993, but you don't have any personal knowledge of those

 9     events, do you, being out of Sarajevo at the time?

10        A.   This is information that I heard through the media, and then

11     later, after a considerable amount of time, from the participants who

12     were in Sarajevo when the brigade was disarmed, but I wasn't there

13     myself.

14             MS. MOE:  Thank you.

15             That concludes my cross-examination.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Prosecutor.

17     You have examined all the documents you had in your folder.

18             Ms. Nozica, do you have any redirect?

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just need to

20     have two clarifications.  I think that that is quite important.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, I would like to ask you to rely on the electronic --

23     on e-court.  You are going to get document 2D996 in e-court.  This is a

24     document, the development of mobilisation of the armed forces.  The

25     Prosecutor asked you if that reads "Sarajevo."  You said you didn't know.

Page 37784

 1     But I would like to ask, kindly, to tell us if there is any information

 2     here, such as the code of the unit of you -- that you had and that you

 3     knew of in the time that this document was drafted?

 4        A.   The code referred to here is the one that is mentioned here.  I

 5     don't know exactly what our brigade code was.  I guess it was this one.

 6        Q.   Was the brigade supposed to have a code?

 7        A.   Well, if it's something that a higher instance sought, then it

 8     should have had one.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document, in

10     reference to His Honour Judge Trechsel's question.  I would like to go

11     back to that.  During the question by my learned friend Ms. Alaburic as

12     to what was going on in Sarajevo of the 8th of November, was it an

13     attack, could it be considered an attack.

14        Q.   So I would like to ask you, in my binder, to look at document

15     2D1188.  I think that that is the seventh document.

16             Witness, the third sentence says this was a document that we

17     saw --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes we don't have any of the

19     documents that Ms. Nozica is referring to.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   -- when did the attack happen, and you responded to something

22     about that.  The document says all the guards have been disarmed, as well

23     as the units holding the line of responsibility and the HVO Command

24     arrested.  The special units, first of all, of the corps were entrusted

25     with the task in facilities of the HVO, left visible traces of vandalism.

Page 37785

 1     They were -- members of the HVO were physically mistreated.  Some

 2     individuals had pistol barrels pushed into their mouths deliberately.

 3     Metal Croatian and religious insignia were put into the mouths of others

 4     for them to swallow.  They trampled Croatian flags, destroyed

 5     communications equipment, smashed the doors, robbed the treasury.  Food

 6     was stolen or destroyed.  Is this sufficient?

 7             Witness, did you hear that this is what was going on on that day?

 8     This is how this attack was proceeding that day on the headquarters of

 9     the Kralj Tvrtko HVO Brigade?

10        A.   I found out from the media that this aggression on the

11     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade and the leadership of the Croatian Defence Council

12     was conducted.  Later, I heard numerous stories from those members who

13     were actually there.  These were my friends, my comrades-in-arms.  After

14     a while, I found out many of the things that were happening that day.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

16             Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one follow-up question.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is true that upon reading

21     this document, we are amazed.  We can see that the ABiH and the HVO that

22     were side by side against the Serb forces, well, there was a rather

23     exceptional event in November, but -- when the HVO was disarmed, but

24     apart from that there were mistreatment of HVO soldiers, the rifle is put

25     into their mouths, they are being beaten, there are acts of vandalism,

Page 37786

 1     et cetera.

 2             You told us that you had comrades-in-arms that told you that.

 3     What do you put down this blind violence to?  You have fighters that

 4     fight side by side against a common enemy, and then they turn against

 5     each other and then commit all that is being stated here.  Maybe there

 6     are things that are exaggerated here, but if what has been written is

 7     right, what do you put it down to?

 8        A.   I can just make an assumption, if you wish to hear it.

 9             I, as a Croat from Sarajevo, believe that with this act, the fate

10     of Croats in Sarajevo was sealed, and that they will feel the

11     consequences of the fact that they moved out and of everything that after

12     that happened in Sarajevo, as Croats or Croatian people from Sarajevo.

13     This is my assumption.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's all you can answer,

15     nothing but this assumption.

16             I thank you, sir.  On behalf of my colleagues and in my own name,

17     I thank you for coming to testify as a Stojic witness in The Hague.

18     Thank you for your contribution for truth to be established.

19             I wish you a safe trip back home, and I wish you enjoy your

20     retirement.

21             The usher is going to escort you out of the courtroom.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are not going to sit

25     tomorrow, that's the schedule, so that we can work.  The Trial Chamber

Page 37787

 1     has already issued 661 decisions.  You can imagine the work behind it

 2     all.  We've got some decisions underway.  You seized the Trial Chamber

 3     constantly.  There are not many of us to face this avalanche.  There are

 4     four Judges and a few assistants, and we are faced by the entire OTP with

 5     all their troops, the 12 Defence counsel, plus their assistants and

 6     advisors, and people working with them.  There are not even 10 of us, and

 7     there are at least 50 of you, so you can imagine the amount of work that

 8     represents, and we have to be up to the task.

 9             So we do our best, in the best available time.  We do endeavour

10     to hand down our decisions as quickly as possible, but some time-periods

11     have to be complied with, in terms of responses.  We've got to comply

12     with that.  But just remember that we have, to date, issued 661

13     decisions.  And just a few days ago, we filed a decision on the

14     presidential transcripts.  That was really a massive amount of work.

15             So, please, think it over when you file a motion.  It has to be

16     useful and necessary, because that's the problem we're faced with.

17             Ms. Nozica, you have scheduled four witnesses for next week.

18     I've looked at it very closely.  It would be really desirable -- I've

19     told you that already, but it better be said again.  Mr. Cengic for the

20     12th of March, he better be available already on Wednesday, the 11th of

21     March.  You never know, even if you scheduled one hour, there could be a

22     procedural issue.  So with regard to Mr. Masic, no problem, Monday and

23     Tuesday.  We'll start with Mr. Bato on Wednesday, and then if we could

24     finish Wednesday with him, we could start Mr. Sandic [as interpreted]

25     already on Wednesday, and he could go into Thursday.  So do your best,

Page 37788

 1     your level best.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I am

 3     almost sure that next week we will have three witnesses, and I'm going to

 4     do my utmost.  But you have confused me a little bit.  I don't recognize

 5     my witnesses by what is written in the transcript, but I know who is

 6     supposed to appear next week.  No problem, no problem.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ivo Masic, Ahmet Bato, and

 8     Cengic.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Cengic.  Our names, Bosnian names,

10     are very difficult.  I know that.  I'm going to try, on Wednesday -- the

11     first witness is coming regularly for the proofing.  After that, I'm

12     going to try to have these other two witnesses ready for Wednesday.  If

13     we finish with the first one, we can start with the second immediately on

14     Wednesday.  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would be ever so

16     grateful.

17             Nothing to say, Mr. Stringer, no question?

18             MR. STRINGER:  Perhaps a warning.  I'm --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             I'm just reflecting on your remarks about the number of decisions

22     that the Trial Chamber has issued so far in these proceedings.  It's

23     regret -- with regret that I -- I'm just going to alert the Trial Chamber

24     to the high likelihood that the Prosecution will, today or tomorrow

25     morning, file yet another motion with respect to the existing state of

Page 37789

 1     witness summaries with the witness scheduled to come on the 16th of

 2     March, Mr. Bandic.

 3             You've seen, in previous submissions, the correspondence from the

 4     Prosecution team to the Stojic team, where we identified a number of

 5     remaining witnesses, where we specified precise parts of the summaries

 6     for them and asked for further elaboration to know not just about what

 7     the witness will say, but to know more about what, in fact, the witness

 8     will say.  We received somewhat of a supplemental summary for Mr. Bandic.

 9     I believe it was last week.  We consider that it is not sufficient.

10             The first inclination would be to write another letter to the

11     Stojic Defence to see whether we can work it out, but we're really

12     mindful, especially in light of the decision that we received from the

13     Trial Chamber yesterday in respect of this witness, that the Trial

14     Chamber, and rightly so, is concerned about these sorts of requests

15     coming in late, just before the witness testifies, and the perception

16     that the Prosecution has been dilatory, that it has not brought these

17     issues to the attention of the Trial Chamber sooner.

18             And so rather than engaging in what we -- our concern would be

19     additional fruitless correspondence with the Stojic team and that would

20     only delay our bringing this issue to the attention of the Trial Chamber,

21     we will, today or tomorrow morning, file a submission pointing out

22     specifically what the Prosecution regards as insufficient in respect of

23     the existing summaries we have for Mr. Bandic.

24             So I say that with regret.  I know it's difficult for the Trial

25     Chamber to get these.

Page 37790

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if there is a motion, we

 2     shall look into it.  But would it not be better for you, Ms. Nozica, and

 3     Mr. Khan, to get together around a cup of coffee and for you to tackle

 4     the issue altogether in order to settle it?  Because look, what's going

 5     to happen, you're going to file a motion, you're going to have a response

 6     by the Defence, but if you could sort it out together, that would be

 7     really much better.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wish to say that

 9     I'm very sorry that my learned friend thinks that it's a fruitless or

10     futile correspondence.  We do react.  I have information that additional

11     summaries have been made for five witnesses, and I would like to ask for

12     a little patience from my learned friend, if he hasn't received it, I

13     mean, it's already been sent, and if it hasn't been sent, it will be sent

14     today or tomorrow, at the latest, and I believe that he will get all the

15     answers today or tomorrow morning, at the latest.

16             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I do apologise.

17             It is correct, I believe, that we have responded to all

18     correspondence that's been addressed to us by the Prosecution.  I do

19     agree with my learned friend, Mr. Stringer, that this state of affairs is

20     most regrettable.  We have said on numerous occasions it was completely

21     avoidable, given that we have filed our 65 summaries months ago in March

22     of 2008.  But on the eve of testimony to constantly barrage a Defence

23     team with motions of this sort is nothing short than destabilising and

24     disorientating, given that we have many other matters to deal with.  We

25     are forward-looking, and to constantly have to cope with the huge

Page 37791

 1     resource of the Prosecution on these - what I am forced to submit now -

 2     are on some occasions, at least, approaching vexatious, and even

 3     frivolous motions, is a matter of the utmost regret.

 4             Your Honours, I do invite my learned friend to address any other

 5     correspondence he wishes to us, and as the state of the record discloses,

 6     we will try, in good faith, to respond.  But sometimes one party or the

 7     other - it may apply to both the Prosecution and Defence - want more and

 8     more and more.  Now, this does not make it correct or make it

 9     meritorious.

10             Your Honours, I do give my learned friend now notice that once I

11     receive his hopefully informal correspondence, I intend to -- or we

12     intend to file, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, an order -- or an application or

13     motion to the Trial Chamber which will be similar in scope to a

14     prerogative order of prohibition, to prohibit the Prosecution to file

15     motions of this nature, and this is -- this will be predicated upon a

16     previous submission of Mr. Stojic that a waiver has taken place because

17     the Prosecution did not do, in a timely fashion, that which they were

18     expected to do, and to raise these issues at a pre-trial conference.

19             They should now be estopped and prevented, by an order of

20     prohibition, to file these motions at the very last opportunity, because

21     to put it bluntly, it makes it almost impossible for a small Defence team

22     to respond and prepare for trial in the days and weeks ahead.

23             Now, Your Honours, we are, and it's a matter for my learned

24     friend, if he wishes to, on this issue accept, there has been, I believe,

25     a genuine effort on the part of the Stojic team to respond to inquiries

Page 37792

 1     made by the Prosecution, and I'd invite him to do that.  And on previous

 2     occasions I have said, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, that unilaterally,

 3     irrespective of any motions, we are trying to supplement and give further

 4     information when we have it, and I think we have -- we have done that, in

 5     part.  We have given summaries even of witnesses that the Prosecution

 6     have not requested additional information.

 7             So, Your Honour, all these matters can be decided in due course.

 8     It is a matter of regret, but as the issue has been raised by my learned

 9     friend, Mr. Stringer, quite properly, I do give the Trial Chamber notice

10     of our intention, once we've seen his correspondence either by way of a

11     bilateral correspondence out of court or by way of a formal motion, the

12     choice of course being his and that of the Prosecutor.  It is our

13     intention to file a motion seeking a prohibition of the Prosecution to

14     engage in motions which they, no doubt very sincerely, very sincerely,

15     believe are with merit, but we say are completely without merit, are

16     untimely, and have the effect of destabilising a small Defence team

17     funded by legal aid, with the limitation of resources that that brings,

18     to the extent that it is affecting the ability of the Stojic team to

19     properly and diligently present a defence case, because it is constantly

20     seeking to put out fires presented by the Prosecution or lit by the

21     Prosecution on eve of testimony.

22             This state of affairs, I emphasise as robustly as I can, was

23     completely preventable if the Prosecution had, in a timely fashion,

24     raised objections since March 2008, and to do so now is causing us very

25     severe prejudice.

Page 37793

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer -- I shall give

 2     you the floor, Ms. Alaburic.

 3             Mr. Stringer, when I addressed the issue of the 661 decisions a

 4     while ago, I didn't think you were going to bring this problem up again.

 5             A few weeks ago, I told you, Mr. Stringer, and I told Mr. Scott

 6     that you needed, right away, to look at the summary list of the 65 ter

 7     witnesses, the upcoming witnesses, and say, Well, for this witness, I

 8     don't agree with this and that and that, and that is missing, to avoid

 9     this kind of situation arising.  You're all professionals, you're all

10     excellent professionals.  The Trial Chamber then has to rule on these

11     matters, and this would not occur if you were able to talk to each other,

12     whether it's the Defence or whether it's the OTP.  We understand full

13     well.  Nonetheless, you're all lawyers, and you should have the interests

14     of justice at heart.

15             Things have to move ahead quickly and efficiently, and we

16     shouldn't waste our time.  Rather than filing written motions, the best

17     would be to discuss it among yourselves and only seize the Trial Chamber

18     when you cannot find a solution.

19             In this particular case, it seems, Mr. Stringer, that you have

20     been too quick to respond.  From what I understood, I may be mistaken,

21     but Ms. Nozica has already prepared her replies, which she was going to

22     put to us or give us tomorrow morning.  I always listen to Mr. Khan very

23     carefully, like I do every time Mr. Khan takes the floor.  The OTP should

24     not destabilise the Defence teams automatically.  I don't know whether

25     this is the case.  This is what Mr. Khan believes, anyway.

Page 37794

 1             You have completed your case, the Prosecution case.  It's now up

 2     to the Defence, with their limited means, to call their witnesses.  There

 3     are three lawyers and three assistants perhaps, so it's a very small

 4     team.  And if you swamp them with motions all the time, they won't be

 5     able to manage all of this.  This you should understand.  And we have to

 6     guarantee the fairness of the trial and the equality of arms.

 7             So let's wait and see what Ms. Nozica has to say, but only seize

 8     the Trial Chamber if you can't do otherwise.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  If I could offer just a few brief remarks in

10     reply, Mr. President.

11             We took the Trial Chamber's admonition to heart last month when

12     it directed the Prosecution to go back over the summaries.  We wrote a

13     long letter to the Defence, and we sent it to them on the 3rd of

14     February.  A copy of the letter was provided to the Trial Chamber's legal

15     officer.  Here we are now, more than a month later.  We've got a little

16     bit of supplemental information in about Mr. Bandic, but in our view it's

17     not sufficient.  We waited until we received the Stojic Defence team's

18     exhibit list yesterday, one day late, in order to try to factor that in.

19     We still believe that the information provided does not put us in the

20     position we're entitled to be, in terms of knowing, not verbatim, but in

21     general what the witness is going to say about a number of very important

22     issues, particularly the SIS investigation at Stupni Do.  We don't know

23     what he's going to say, and that information still has not come across to

24     us.

25             Here we are, a month later.  The Defence now are saying that

Page 37795

 1     we're late.  Well, if we're late, it's because we've been waiting, and

 2     we've been dealing, through correspondence, with them, and yet we're

 3     still not in the position that we believe we ought to be.

 4             In light of Mr. Khan's remarks about their seeking to prohibit

 5     the Prosecution from filing motions, I don't know that we can work this

 6     out with the Stojic Defence team, and I regret to say that I think that

 7     it will be up to the Trial Chamber to have to resolve all these issues.

 8             I'm happy to meet with Mr. Khan, or Ms. Nozica, or any member of

 9     their team over coffee, but that's not going to give us the summary that

10     we have to have in the courtroom, in the event the witness goes beyond

11     the scope of a summary.  It doesn't -- that sort of informal chat just

12     doesn't put us in the place that we need to be when the witness is in the

13     box and we are getting ready for a cross-examination or we are listening

14     to a direct examination.  And so I'm happy to meet with them and to raise

15     these issues personally with them, but in light of the remarks made,

16     we're certainly not doing this to destabilise anybody.  We're just trying

17     to be prepared, and that's all.  And in our view, we're not prepared,

18     still, in respect of Mr. Bandic, even though this was raised with the

19     Defence team for Mr. Stojic over a month ago in the correspondence we

20     sent to them.

21             Thank you.

22             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, I'm always delighted to spend any time

23     in the company of my learned friend --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, we will have to stop.

25     I shall be in this courtroom in a few minutes' time, so we only have a

Page 37796

 1     few minutes left.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Khan.

 3             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, I'm most grateful.

 4             I would be more than delighted to take my learned friend up on

 5     his offer to sit down over a coffee and to discuss these issues with him,

 6     even if he's willing to accept, and I'm happy to pay for the coffee, but,

 7     Your Honours, we have responded in a timely fashion.  To the best of my

 8     knowledge, the correspondence referred to by my learned friend was

 9     responded to by the Stojic Defence team on the 10th and on the 13th, so

10     that the information given has been provided.  That's the first point.

11             The second point, Your Honour, is this: that my learned friend

12     states that in the event of testimony going beyond the 65 ter summary,

13     there is prejudice.  Well, that is rather anticipatory.  What I would

14     rather invite Your Honours to consider is this:  We have sought to

15     endeavour to comply with our obligations under 65 ter.  We have sought to

16     supplement, wherever we can, both when the Prosecution have asked for

17     more information and since this issue became a rather heated issue

18     between the parties, we've looked at matters again and are working on

19     these issues, but, Your Honour, what I would ask is that perhaps

20     witnesses can come without what we say are needless motions by the

21     Prosecution.  After the examination-in-chief is concluded, if the

22     Prosecution can establish or persuade Your Honours that they are really

23     prejudiced by a matter that they were not aware of and they were not

24     familiar of -- familiar with, at that point Your Honours can grant some

25     time for an adjournment for them to be prepared.  Your Honours, that's a

Page 37797

 1     very fair way of doing it.

 2             But, Your Honours, to keep flooding us with an incessant barrage

 3     of motions is destabilising.  I'm saying this is a tactical device on

 4     behalf of my learned friend, Mr. Stringer.  I know him too well to say

 5     that he would descend to such tactics.  I'm sure that it's based upon a

 6     sincere belief that they are entitled to more and more, and of course

 7     they want statements in reality.  But, Your Honours, if there is a

 8     modicum of merit -- a degree of merit in what the Prosecution say, that

 9     mischief or that prejudice could be surely remedied by the Defence after

10     the witness has been heard, being given a few moments of time, depending

11     upon what the issue is, to prepare, prior to conducting their

12     cross-examination.  Your Honour, that's the way of dealing with it in a

13     fair and proper manner.

14             Your Honour, the final remark is this:  Your Honour has heard

15     today that the witness that has concluded his evidence.  It may perhaps

16     be pertinent to note that the Prosecution filed several motions in

17     relation to this witness, and in these motions the Prosecution's constant

18     averment was that this witness was not relevant.  And, Your Honour, all

19     those motions, of course, we have to respond to.

20             Now, Your Honours, you have heard the evidence today, and of

21     course it's for Your Honours to decide if that evidence was relevant or

22     is a complete waste of the Court's time, but the simple point is:  Be

23     that as it may, when a motion is filed by the machinery of the Office of

24     the Prosecution, the small wheel that is available the Defence must move

25     at a frenetic pace in order to respond and protect, to the best of our

Page 37798

 1     abilities, Mr. Stojic's rights to a fair trial.

 2             Your Honour, those are my remarks.  I'm very happy to speak to

 3     Mr. Stringer on this issue.  We're very happy to try to give as much

 4     information as we have, consistent with our obligations under the Rules

 5     of Procedure and Evidence of this Court.

 6             And the final remark is:  Any prejudice suffered can be remedied

 7     without a constant barrage of motions by some time being given once Your

 8     Honours have seen whether or not prejudice is occasioned to a party in

 9     reality, as opposed to this theoretical spectre that is constantly being

10     raised by, in my respectful submission, my learned friends from the

11     Prosecution.

12             Your Honours, those are my remarks on this issue.  I hope they

13     assist.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, we know that your

15     client wished to be here when Mr. Bandic is coming.  That is all right,

16     is it; your client will be here in two weeks' time?

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my client will be

18     here precisely pursuant to your decision.  He arrives on Sunday, so my

19     client will be here when Mr. Ivan Bandic is examined, and everybody in

20     this courtroom knows full well that we're very interested in hearing --

21     in having my client, General Petkovic, hear the testimony of this

22     witness.

23             And since Mr. Stringer raised the question, I'd like to inform

24     the Trial Chamber of the following fact:  Yesterday, we received a list

25     of exhibits which the Defence of Bruno Stojic intends to present to

Page 37799

 1     Mr. Bandic and discuss the documents with Mr. Bandic.  However, among

 2     those documents there are certain orders signed by my client and certain

 3     documents sent to my client, and from this we can conclude, without any

 4     doubt, that Mr. Bandic will be mentioning General Petkovic and talking

 5     about him, and I'd like to tell the Stojic Defence today that we would

 6     like to have information about the facts that the witness will be

 7     discussing and presenting relating to General Petkovic and the Main Staff

 8     in the portion which relates to General Petkovic.  And I do believe that

 9     we'll be able to agree on these points with the Bruno Stojic Defence.

10             We know the difficulties that face them.  We don't want to exert

11     any pressure on them, and it will be sufficient for us to receive the

12     information in the course of the proofing session of Mr. Bandic.  And if

13     we receive them 24 hours prior to the examination-in-chief of the

14     witness, we will be ready to start our cross-examination straight away.

15     But if we don't receive that information, then we might need to ask that

16     the proceedings be deferred, a stay in the proceedings, until we're able

17     to prepare.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have just heard

20     what Ms. Alaburic has said.  You must avoid adjourning and asking the

21     witnesses to come later.  If Ms. Alaburic says she doesn't have enough

22     information to conduct her cross-examination, this could be an issue, so

23     please settle this among yourselves.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really will try and

25     do the best I can.  I have some technical problems, but we will respond

Page 37800

 1     to Ms. Alaburic's request.  And if -- when it comes to time, now, when I

 2     have a proofing session, whether I can provide all the information

 3     prior -- 24 hours prior to his coming into court, I don't know.  Well,

 4     they can recall the witness for the cross-examination.  But as I say, I

 5     will do my best to comply.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I don't know how

 8     you prepare to hear your witnesses.  The easiest would have been to ask

 9     the upcoming witness to provide you with a short summary of the items he

10     or she wishes to discuss in light of the position he or she held at the

11     time, so then you have a good work tool.  If you wait for the last

12     minute, then you will have a problem.  So that's for you to do, that's

13     your problem.

14             I'm sorry to say that the Rules in this case did not enable the

15     Bench to handle this energetically before the trial started.

16     Unfortunately, all these problems are due to this.  If all of this had

17     been settled beforehand, we would have gained a lot of time.

18     Unfortunately, this is not the case.

19             It's now time to stop.  I thought we would have stopped earlier,

20     but we finish at the usual time.

21             We shall meet again on Monday at a quarter past 2.00.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of March,

24                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.