090304IT

Page 37695

1 shall endeavour to be as quick with this witness as possible so that we

2 can divide the time up among the other witnesses.

3 Examination by Ms. Nozica:

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pinjuh.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, I'd just shortly like to go through your CV and the

7 posts you occupied, so I'll take it in order, and you'll just tell me

8 whether what I'm saying is correct.

9 You went to the Vocational Machine and Technical School in

10 Sarajevo and completed that in 1982, and in 1994 you also graduated from

11 the additional police training course. On the 18th of September, 1991,

12 you were engaged as a reservist of the MUP of BH in Sarajevo. On the 6th

13 of April, 1992, you became the commander of the Pofalici Company within

14 the frameworks of the TO in Novo Sarajevo in Sarajevo. At the beginning

15 of June, 1992, when the HVO was established in Sarajevo, you became the

16 commander of the battalion of the HVO in Novo Sarajevo. On the 29th of

17 December, 1992, you were appointed the deputy president of the brigade of

18 the HVO -- correction. I meant to say "deputy commander" of the brigade

19 of the HVO, called Kralj Tvrtko in Sarajevo. From the end of April 1993,

20 you found yourself in Medjugorje, and up until that time you otherwise

21 lived in Sarajevo. On the 15th of August, 1993, you were relieved of

22 your duties as deputy commander of the HVO, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and

23 until December 1993, you were placed at the disposal of the office for

24 the defence of Grude.

25 From December 1993 onwards, you relocated to Mostar to take up

Page 37696

1 your duties there as commander of the unit for the protection and

2 security of facilities and individuals of special importance of the MUP

3 of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna. In 19 -- yes, that's right.

4 In 1997, you became employed in a private firm, a security firm, and in

5 1999 you got a job in the National Security Service of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And after that, in 2005, you retired.

7 Are all -- is that information correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, at the beginning of June, as we said reading out your

10 CV, when the HVO of Sarajevo was established, did you -- were you

11 appointed to a post?

12 A. Yes. I was appointed commander of the Novo Sarajevo Battalion,

13 and I was appointed by the then president of the HVO, Velimir Maric.

14 Q. In addition to the battalion in Sarajevo, at that time were there

15 other -- any other HVO battalions?

16 A. Yes. There was one in Sarajevo, which was the 1st Battalion with

17 its seat at Stup, Ilidza municipality. There was the 2nd Battalion in

18 the Novi Grad municipality, and the 4th Battalion in Centar, the

19 municipality of Stari Grad.

20 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, was a brigade, an HVO brigade, established in

21 Sarajevo, and if so, when?

22 A. Yes, a brigade was formed in December 1992, and its name was

23 Kralj Tvrtko.

24 Q. Do you know who appointed -- who was appointed commander of the

25 brigade and who that was?

Page 37697

1 A. The brigade commander became Mr. Slavko Zelic, and he was

2 appointed by the president, Mate Boban.

3 Q. Do you know when the other officers were appointed and in what

4 way, how they came to be in the Command of the brigade?

5 A. At the proposal of the command of the brigade, Slavko Zelic, the

6 Command of the brigade was appointed, and the head of the Defence

7 Department, Mr. Bruno Stojic, made those appointments.

8 Q. Can you tell us, please, to the best of your recollections, when

9 that occurred?

10 A. That was at the end of December 1992.

11 Q. In addition to this military section of the HVO in Sarajevo, was

12 there a civilian section of the HVO, and if so, as of what date?

13 A. Yes, it did. There was the Municipal Council of the HVO as a

14 civilian body, as a civilian council, and with the Defence Department in

15 Sarajevo, it came to be established, and the first president was Velimir

16 Maric. And later on, Mr. Slavko Zelic was appointed president of the

17 Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo, and as far as I remember he was

18 appointed in March 1993 by the president of the HVO, Mr. Jadranko Prlic.

19 Q. We are talking about 1992 here; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to look at the binder. If you haven't

22 been provided with it, you will be. And I'd like us to look at some of

23 the documents we've -- referring to the events and appointments we've

24 just been discussing.

25 Witness, would you look at document 2D 1185 now, please, and that

Page 37698

1 should be the first document in your binder.

2 Have you found it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So this is a letter to be handed to Mr. Slavko Zelic in person,

5 and it is from the head of the Defence Department, Bruno Stojic. The

6 date is the 5th of December, 1992. And from this letter, we can see that

7 Mr. Zelic had already been appointed commander of the brigade by

8 Mr. Boban, as you said, and he is being asked to send in a list of the

9 Command, the persons to take up their positions in the Command, with all

10 their CV and data, so that these individuals could be appointed. And it

11 says that the brigade will be named the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade.

12 Now, do you know that Mr. Slavko Zelic did indeed do this and

13 send in a proposal for the men to make up the Command?

14 A. Yes, and Slavko compiled this proposal.

15 Q. And now take a look at the next document, which is 2D 1177. And

16 tell me when you've found it.

17 A. I've found it.

18 Q. This is a letter of appointment by Mr. Bruno Stojic, dated the

19 29th of December, of the Command of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo;

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you are under number 1 as the deputy commander. Now I'd like

23 you to turn to the second page, where we can see that the document was

24 sent to the Brigade Command, the Main Staff, and what is particularly

25 important, to the Personnel Department.

Page 37699

1 Now, Mr. Pinjuh, do you know that the Brigade Command was kept a

2 record of, and in the Personnel Department of the Defence Department in

3 Mostar?

4 A. As far as I know, yes.

5 Q. I'd like you now to look at the next document, which is P 1778,

6 P 1778, as I said, and this is the 33rd session of the Croatian Defence

7 Council, as we can see from this document. And I'd like to ask you to

8 turn to page 5 in both the English and Croatian versions. And I'd like

9 to emphasise that the date of this session is the 1st of April, 1993.

10 And on page 5, under item 8, we see that in the HVO of the

11 Sarajevo municipality, Slavko Zelic is being appointed as president?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then on the second page, we have the entire Presidency, and

14 the HVO commissioners in the various municipalities, Stari Grad, Novo

15 Sarajevo, Novi Grad, and Ilidza; right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. So that is, in fact, the decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB on the

18 appointment of the Presidency, when Mr. Zelic was appointed president;

19 right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. I'd like to ask you now, Mr. Pinjuh, to explain to the Trial

22 Chamber how the battalions and HVO brigades or, rather, the Kralj Tvrtko

23 Brigade was distributed in Sarajevo. What lines did they hold?

24 A. The HVO units in Sarajevo included four battalions. The 1st

25 Battalion held its line in the area of responsibility of the Stup

Page 37700

1 settlement. The 2nd and 3rd Battalion held the line along the Miljacka

2 River, the Novo Sarajevo municipality towards Malin Vor, and the 4th was

3 the Protection Battalion providing security for various facilities and

4 had the role of intervention as an intervention battalion.

5 Q. This deployment and disposition of the battalions of the HVO

6 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade or, rather, battalion, was that in agreement with

7 the BH Army?

8 A. Yes, that was done in cooperation and in agreement with the

9 BH Army.

10 Q. And for how long did this line along the Miljacka River, as you

11 said -- how long did it exist?

12 A. Until the 6th of November, 1993.

13 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, could you explain to the Trial Chamber now how

14 important this line was, especially that line along the Miljacka River

15 that you mentioned which, as we can see, was held by your battalion?

16 What was its importance, in terms of defence? How important was it, in

17 terms of the defence of the city of Sarajevo?

18 A. That line was right in the center of the city of Sarajevo between

19 the Novo Sarajevo and Centar municipalities, and if the line fell, then

20 Sarajevo would be split into two parts, and most probably life would be

21 very different and the military positions would be very different, and

22 the city might even have fallen.

23 Q. The line was on the Miljacka River?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, can you please tell me what was the ethnic

Page 37701

1 composition of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO Brigade?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before Ms. Nozica

3 addresses this issue, I'm now discovering things with you. I didn't know

4 at all that until November 1993 the HVO was in Sarajevo in agreement with

5 the ABiH, so this is something that comes into play and that I wasn't at

6 all aware of, which might change quite a few things indeed. I must ask

7 you follow-up questions.

8 If I understand properly, it was during this siege of Sarajevo by

9 the Serbs; is that right?

10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the common enemy, HVO -- I

12 asked you something, but we didn't get your answer on record. I'll ask

13 you again.

14 Sir, it was during the siege of Sarajevo by the Serbs? So please

15 answer that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was during the Serb

17 siege.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In other words,

19 until November 1993, the HVO and the ABiH had a common enemy, the Serbs?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In purely military terms,

22 because you had somehow the space in Sarajevo spread between you, and you

23 said just as well you were there because otherwise Sarajevo would have

24 fallen quickly. As the four HVO battalions and ABiH were spread, who was

25 your counterpart on the ABiH side? Who was your counterpart?

Page 37702

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan,

2 was the commander of the 1st Corps, and his deputy was Vehid Karavelic.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was Mustafa, whose

4 surname was not put on record, who was your counterpart. Does this mean

5 that on a daily basis, there were telephone or physical contacts between

6 the HVO and the ABiH in order to face the Serb enemy?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did cooperate in a number

8 of sectors, military, logistics, and as needed in some other sectors as

9 well.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI [Interpretation]: And was this some permanent

11 cooperation?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was constant when we were

13 holding the line.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When did it cease?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of November, 1993.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for all your answers.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 I would just like to ask to make a correction.

19 Q. You said Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan, was the commander of the

20 1st Corps; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Mr. Kraljevic was his deputy; is that correct?

23 A. If I remember correctly, he was his deputy and later commander.

24 Q. And when he was deputy, that was his rank, and you cooperated

25 with him?

Page 37703

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. I asked you about that earlier, but now that His Honour, the

3 Judge, put that question, you had joint meetings and coordinated in all

4 important things?

5 A. Yes. Commander Zelic mostly did that.

6 Q. Were you present at those meetings?

7 A. Occasionally when I was in Sarajevo.

8 Q. And this disposition, this deployment of the units that were

9 holding the line around Sarajevo was absolutely in agreement with the

10 1st Corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian Army; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you like that, and you can tell Their Honours

13 because they don't know that perhaps. Do you agree that one of the lines

14 that the HVO was holding was one of the most important lines at the time

15 when the HVO was there, in view of the geographical layout, because in

16 that section the line of separation was a river?

17 I cannot hear you. What you're nodding is not good enough. We

18 would need to have that on the transcript.

19 But now my colleague is on her feet.

20 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Good morning to Your Honours, and everyone in and around the

22 courtroom, Witness.

23 I would have to object to the line of questioning by Ms. Nozica

24 here, and I get up to object to leading question. And, in particular, on

25 page 12, line 9, the question is asked: "Do you agree that one of the

Page 37704

1 lines ..." And I would ask for counsel to phrase her questions more

2 openly.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Thank you, thank you,

6 thank you, I will rephrase.

7 Q. How important for the defence of the town of Sarajevo -- I

8 already asked you that, but I'm asking you because of the geographical

9 nature of that line. What was it, in terms of its layout, the line that

10 the HVO was holding?

11 A. The line was very important for the defence of the town of

12 Sarajevo, because in the center of town itself, in the Novo Sarajevo

13 municipality, the Serbian Army had entered Grbavica, which was the urban

14 part of the town, and that is where the Miljacka River flows. On the

15 other side, there were the Marshal Tito Barracks, where the JNA Army was

16 still situated. And then two kilometres further along was the border

17 with the Serbian army towards Vogosca, so if the line fell the area of

18 Grbavica would join up with the lines in Valesici and Gornji Pofalici,

19 and that is why -- and the barracks, Marshal Tito, and that is why the

20 town would be cut in two parts, because the line -- that was why the line

21 was important. And otherwise the town would have been cut in two parts.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there were

23 International Observers there. Were they aware of that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We had our own officer,

25 liaison officer, who was with the UNPROFOR.

Page 37705

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, your liaison officer

2 would explain to the UNPROFOR everything about the cooperation?

3 Everybody was aware?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. We are now going to move to the numbers. We are now talking

7 about figures that are known to you. Can you tell me the strength of the

8 HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade and what was the ethnic composition of the

9 brigade?

10 A. The Kralj Tvrtko Brigade was some 1800 men strong. The ethnic

11 composition was 50 per cent members of the Croatian ethnicity, and the

12 rest were Bosniaks and Serbs, as well as representatives of the ethnic

13 minorities, such as the Hungarian, Czech, Roma, Jewish, and others.

14 Q. Can you please tell me the weapons that your brigade had?

15 A. Our brigade was an infantry brigade, and it had infantry

16 weaponry, for the most part.

17 Q. And how was this weaponry obtained?

18 A. With organising the defence and the formation of units in

19 Sarajevo, the first weapons were personal weapons or weapons issued

20 through the MUP or the TO. Later, with the liberation of the barracks in

21 Sarajevo, some weapons were seized and were distributed to the HVO and

22 the B and H Army units.

23 Q. And can you please tell me, in 1992, did you receive any weapons

24 from the HVO Mostar Defence Department?

25 A. From what I know, the logistics support and weapons and

Page 37706

1 ammunition did come from that area.

2 Q. Can you briefly tell me how it came into the town, physically?

3 And I don't want to put leading questions, but was the town at that time

4 already under siege by the Serbian Army?

5 A. Which period are you talking about?

6 Q. The end of 1991 and later, end of 1993.

7 A. It usually came by military routes via Igman.

8 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours what that means, via military

9 paths? Did somebody carry it, transfer it?

10 A. Mostly, it was physically carried by -- on foot.

11 Q. Can you please tell me if this provision of supplies and weapons

12 from Mostar -- was the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina informed about

13 that, and did you do this in cooperation with them?

14 A. Yes, they were informed about it, and they didn't pose any

15 problems for this kind of thing to us.

16 Q. You said that the HVO in Sarajevo also had a liaison officer with

17 the UNPROFOR?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please tell me who that was?

20 A. That was Mr. Anton Rill.

21 Q. Anton Rill. Can you tell Their Honours, based on your

22 experience, if you know - I'm interested in only what you know - what was

23 the task of that officer, liaison officer? What did he do that you knew

24 of?

25 A. Well, it was our intention, through the liaison officer with the

Page 37707

1 UNPROFOR, to inform the UNPROFOR about all that was happening in the HVO

2 and in the town of Sarajevo, and also to see how the citizens of the town

3 of Sarajevo could be helped, also the HVO, from UNPROFOR.

4 Q. Sir, did you remain in Sarajevo that whole time? Now we see that

5 in December, you were appointed deputy commander of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO

6 Brigade. Were you in Sarajevo the whole time?

7 A. No. In late 1992, pursuant to a decision of the brigade HQ, was

8 sent to the Mostar area, to the Defence Department, in order to secure

9 logistical support for our brigade in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Did you go out of Sarajevo, and with whom did you leave?

11 A. I left in January under military police escort.

12 Q. We're talking about 1993 now, are we?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what you say, military police escort, was that somebody from

15 your brigade?

16 A. Yes, it was the brigade military police.

17 Q. When you -- did you -- let me ask you this: In this period up to

18 January 1993, did you have any communications with Sarajevo -- with

19 Mostar? Excuse me. Were you able to communicate with Mostar from

20 Sarajevo?

21 A. We didn't have any direct connections, only communication through

22 Hamm radio operators. We could speak with somebody from Herzegovina or

23 sometimes through the high representative who worked in the high-ranking

24 bodies of the authorities.

25 Q. When you came to Mostar, who received you?

Page 37708

1 A. When I came to Mostar, we went to see the chief of the Defence

2 Department and his deputy, Mr. Bozic, and that day we also met

3 Mr. Praljak.

4 Q. And what was the topic of these meetings that day in Mostar?

5 A. We informed the gentlemen about the situation and all that was

6 going on in Sarajevo, and we asked for specific assistance in materiel

7 and equipment.

8 Q. And did you receive any support or promises from Mr. Stojic and

9 from Mr. Praljak?

10 A. Yes, we did receive support, and everything that they told us

11 then was later implemented.

12 Q. Did you explain to them which positions the HVO was holding in

13 town?

14 A. Yes, we told them what our positions were.

15 Q. And did you receive support, in terms of that, to continue with

16 these activities?

17 A. Yes, we received full support for our participation in the

18 defence of the town of Sarajevo.

19 Q. After this meeting, did you take any steps in order to obtain the

20 materiel and equipment required for the defence of Sarajevo by your

21 brigade?

22 A. After the meeting, we organised a convoy to transfer weapons to

23 Sarajevo. We went to the Logistics Centre in Grude and told them what we

24 needed, and requested the necessary passes from the 4th Corps. Then we

25 brought the weapons in.

Page 37709

1 Q. Where did you bring them in?

2 A. We brought the weapons to the relocated Logistics Centre in

3 Kiseljak. That was the one for the HVO of Sarajevo. And then we

4 organised the transfer of that to Sarajevo.

5 Q. When you say the Logistics Centre in Kiseljak, was this a

6 logistics centre of your brigade, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Could you please explain to the Chamber why it was necessary for

9 you to have a logistics centre in Kiseljak? What were the reasons for

10 that?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to get

12 back to the visit you made in January, where you met Mr. Stojic, Bozic,

13 and General Praljak. According to what we understood, you asked them for

14 their support, for logistical and arms support. When you addressed them,

15 did you address them as Croats from Herzegovina or were you addressing

16 the Republic of Croatia? When you were asking for help, who did you turn

17 to, exactly?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HZ-HB HVO Defence Department.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A subsidiary question: Did

20 they tell you that they could provide you with equipment, or did they say

21 that you needed to wait? What did they say, exactly?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that they were supporting

23 us and that we should go to the Central Logistics Centre in Grude, headed

24 by Mr. Ante Jelavic, and to see what we can get, what they had available.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that's what you did?

Page 37710

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. And my last question was what this Logistics Centre in Kiseljak

4 was, and why was it in Kiseljak, and you said it was a logistics centre

5 of your brigade. I asked you why it had to be located in Kiseljak.

6 A. We made a decision to set up a logistics centre in Kiseljak

7 because it was the closest to Sarajevo. It was like a logistics

8 warehouse, where we would assemble the weapons and the required materiel

9 and equipment and distribute it to Sarajevo from there, when possible.

10 Q. Witness, to make things absolutely clear, in Sarajevo -- you

11 couldn't enter Sarajevo by car at that time, could you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Fine. Now, after leaving Sarajevo, did you leave

14 anymore times for -- to procure materiel and equipment?

15 A. Yes. In March, we needed anti-armoured devices because tanks

16 were used against us, so we needed some anti-armour devices, and we

17 organised another trip to the Logistical Centre to try and procure those

18 vehicles.

19 Q. Witness, before we move on to this other trip of yours, are we

20 talking about the 1st January and December and -- January and February of

21 1993, was that when Sarajevo had a lack of materiel and technical

22 equipment and food, and was that indeed the most difficult time in

23 Sarajevo after the aggression of the Serb Army?

24 A. Well, that year was a terrible year.

25 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 37711

1 I'll again have to object to leading questions. I'm asking for

2 counsel to phrase her questions more openly.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, please avoid

5 leading questions. What I'm interested in are the answers, not so much

6 the way questions are put. As a judge, I know how to weigh the

7 questions, whether they are a leading question or not. The Prosecution

8 feels this is a question of principle, so please rephrase your questions

9 so that we don't have objections.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

11 understand that completely, and we did raise the same objections during

12 the Prosecution case, so I'll do my best not to ask leading questions.

13 Q. Anyway, what was the end of 1992 like and the beginning of 1993

14 in Sarajevo, from the aspects of weapons, the weaponry that the army had,

15 the military activities, the humanitarian situation, electricity, water,

16 and all the rest of it?

17 A. During that period, Sarajevo faced a very difficult situation.

18 It was a very cold winter. There was no heating, no electricity, no

19 water either. It was very cold. All the stocks that we had had been

20 exhausted, food stocks and everything else, and it was a truly difficult

21 situation.

22 Q. Was that one of the reasons for which you were given this

23 assignment to try and procure material and resources from the HVO Mostar

24 for the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?

25 A. Yes. We had enough manpower, but we needed logistics, logistical

Page 37712

1 support, mostly. We had enough long barrels, but not food and all the

2 rest of it. We kept having a shortage of food, medicines, and many other

3 things.

4 Q. Could you explain briefly what your second trip was like and what

5 happened along the way, en route?

6 A. Well, I decided to set out on that journey again. We set out,

7 and we came across a check-point before entering Konjic municipality, a

8 check-point that wasn't there before, and we were stopped there by

9 members of the BH Army. And after inspecting our documents, they allowed

10 us to pass through. And at Jablanica, we came across another

11 check-point. We showed our IDs again, talked to the men there, asked

12 that they let us through, and they did. So I realised that there were

13 check-points set up along that free part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. And that was the first time that you saw these check-points?

15 A. Yes. The first time I went, there were no check-points, and I

16 had no problems.

17 Q. You had permission from the 1st Corps of the BH Army and all the

18 necessary papers and documents showing that you were going from Sarajevo

19 and that you were a member of the Sarajevo HVO; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you reach Mostar?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. And did you undertake any measures to organise a convoy?

24 A. We went to Grude. We were put up in Citluk. We went to Grude,

25 the Logistical Centre there, and tried to see how many anti-armoured

Page 37713

1 vehicles we could procure and to see how we were going to transport them,

2 bring them in.

3 Q. And what did you do next?

4 A. As we did our best to procure the material we needed and to see

5 how we were going to get them to where they were needed, through the

6 media and in talking to people, we see -- saw that something was

7 happening in that general area, that there were conflicts and clashes

8 between the HVO and BH Army, skirmishes, especially in Konjic.

9 Q. And what period was that? You said you set out in March, but

10 what period are you referring to now?

11 A. It was the end of March and beginning of April 1993.

12 Q. Did you hear anything specific about what happened in Konjic at

13 the end of March?

14 A. At the time, I was in Citluk and I heard there that the BH Army

15 had attacked HVO units in Konjic.

16 Q. All right, thank you. And regardless of that, you decided to

17 return to Sarajevo, did you?

18 A. No, we decided that we couldn't, given the present circumstances,

19 take the same route back, so we returned the weapons -- or, rather, we

20 left them in Grude.

21 Q. But did you set out towards Sarajevo, nonetheless?

22 A. We waited for a time to see what the developments were going to

23 be, and after some time had passed we decided to go back to Sarajevo,

24 because that's where we came from.

25 Q. Well, tell us who set out on the journey?

Page 37714

1 A. Well, we received some humanitarian assistance first in

2 Siroki Brijeg to take to the defenders' families, some food and things

3 like that, and then we loaded them up into a truck and set out for

4 Sarajevo on the 15th of April, 1993.

5 Q. I see. The 15th of April, 1993?

6 A. I think that was the date, yes.

7 Q. And what happened along your route?

8 A. Well, the logistics people and the military policemen, with a

9 small truck, went in front of me. I followed them. And before entering

10 Jablanica, the road was closed at a check-point, and I was stopped by the

11 BH Army. And when I got out to explain to them that I had all my papers

12 in order, a member of the BH Army hit me with his rifle-butt. He hit me

13 in my face. And they then took me to the Jablanica police station, and

14 they took my side-arms and vehicle, and seized my documents and told me

15 to wait, that I was to speak to their security officer.

16 Q. Did he come? Did you have that conversation, that interview?

17 A. Several hours later, he did appear, and we did have that

18 conversation. Well, interview.

19 Q. What happened afterwards? Were your papers and vehicle returned

20 to you?

21 A. No, my side-arms and vehicle were not returned. The papers had

22 to be checked out, and I had to stay there for several days while they

23 inspected my papers.

24 Q. So did you stay there?

25 A. I was on the premises of that police station all the time,

Page 37715

1 waiting, waiting every day for my documents to be returned so that I

2 could continue my journey towards Sarajevo. I thought that I would

3 ultimately be able to reach Sarajevo, but after some time had gone by I

4 realised that I wasn't going to be allowed to pass, that the conflicts

5 had already begun, and I decided to take another route and go back to

6 Herzegovina across the mountains.

7 Q. And did you do that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Fine. Now, after that, you said that that was -- that you set

10 out for Mostar on the 15th of April; right? So that was sometime around

11 the beginning of May. Have I calculated that properly?

12 A. Well, the end of April.

13 Q. I see, the end of April 1993. Where did you go to Herzegovina,

14 specifically?

15 A. I went to Medjugorje.

16 Q. I see, Medjugorje. Tell me, please, after that, did you ever go

17 back to Sarajevo?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And you live in Herzegovina to this day?

20 A. I live in the Mostar area, but I have a house in Sarajevo, where

21 my father lives, so I very often go to Sarajevo and travel between Mostar

22 and Sarajevo.

23 Q. All right. Now, with respect to logistical support, I'd like to

24 ask you to look at some documents. 2D 1195 is the first one. I think

25 that's the next document in order in your binder. 2D 1195 is the number.

Page 37716

1 Have you found it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, this is a letter from the commander of the Kralj Tvrtko

4 Brigade, Slavko Zelic, on the 25th of February, 1993. He is sent to the

5 Main Staff in Mostar -- it's been sent to the Main Staff in Mostar. And

6 from the first part of that letter, we see that he says that the HVO of

7 Sarajevo has for some time been trying to procure materiel and technical

8 equipment for the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and he says that the results are

9 minimal because they weren't able to organise a sufficiently secure

10 channel for bringing in those resources. So was that the reason for your

11 trip, as you said earlier on?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the second part of this letter, we see that there was very

14 good cooperation with the Ministry of the Interior of Sarajevo, and

15 suggestions are made that certain persons from this ministry, together

16 with the HVO, could procure some weapons. Did you know Mr. Drina Faruk,

17 Nedzad Cengic?

18 A. As for Mr. Drina Faruk, I have heard of him, his name is

19 familiar, but I haven't heard of Nedzad Cengic.

20 Q. All right. Now, at the end of this letter, it says:

21 "Our needs are based on 1.000 completely unequipped soldiers with

22 regards to the position which we are currently holding in our area of

23 responsibility at Stup and Dobrinja, we feel the greatest shortages in

24 anti-armour resources. With current equipment, the brigade which

25 consists of 1650 men, divided into four battalions, possesses 250 barrels

Page 37717

1 and very scarce quantity of ammunition."

2 And then the 60-millimetre mortars are mentioned, and two

3 hand-held rocket-launchers for which they need ammunition.

4 Now, Mr. Pinjuh, do you know that those were the requirements and

5 the needs, and is that what you've been telling us about so far, that

6 those were the reasons for your trips?

7 A. Yes, that was what we needed in order to hold the line.

8 Q. And from this letter, we can clearly see the HVO Kralj Tvrtko

9 Brigade, cooperation with the Main Staff of the Defence Department in

10 Mostar; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to look at the next document, which is

13 2D 1178. Would you explain what this is to Their Honours?

14 A. Yes. Well, because of the logistical needs for materiel and

15 technical equipment, we used this occasion to procure food and clothing

16 for the families of the defenders of Sarajevo, so this is a shipping

17 record which we received from Caritas at Siroki Brijeg.

18 Q. Now, Witness, the food mentioned here, was it transported in a

19 truck that you said went out together with you on the 15th of April,

20 1993?

21 A. Yes. Later on, I learnt that they managed to reach Kiseljak.

22 Q. Let's just go back a bit. So that's when you were held back at

23 Jablanica, right, and the truck managed to get through to Kiseljak?

24 A. Yes. I don't know how they managed to do that, but I assume they

25 had the papers necessary from the humanitarian organisation.

Page 37718

1 Q. Witness, after April 1993, as you yourself said, you were not --

2 no longer able to return to Sarajevo. Did you have any contact

3 whatsoever with members of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo, and if

4 so, what were your contacts in the coming period? And we'll limit

5 ourselves until the 6th of November, 1993.

6 A. Well, the only contacts that I could have with the HVO of

7 Sarajevo during that period of -- were via the radio Hamms in Grude and

8 Ljubuski. I would make an appointment for having a conversation with our

9 liaison officer, and I would come in at that time, and with the radio

10 Hamms, I would be connected and I would ask whether there were any

11 wounded and things like that.

12 Now, in August I mentioned Mr. -- I met Mr. Slavko Zelic in

13 Grude, so I talked to him personally about what the situation was like in

14 Sarajevo, what was happening, and so on.

15 Q. Just to refresh our memories, could you tell the Trial Chamber

16 again what Slavko Zelic was at the time after April 1993, at the time

17 when you met him?

18 A. He was president of the Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo.

19 Q. So that's the civilian part, the civilian section; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did he tell you? What did he say the situation was like

22 in Sarajevo?

23 A. He said that it was -- it had become impossible to have the HVO

24 in Sarajevo and that the BH Command demanded that the HVO be disbanded,

25 that the HVO soldiers should become part and parcel of the BH Army, that

Page 37719

1 they should be one and the same army.

2 Q. So when you saw him, and that was at the end of August, you say,

3 1993, did he tell you which lines were still controlled by the HVO in

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. As far as I understood him, it held the same lines, but he did

6 tell me that the line along the Miljacka River had been expanded by one

7 kilometre.

8 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, what happened on the 6th of November, 1993, in

9 Sarajevo with your -- to your brigade?

10 A. On the 6th of November, the BH Army launched an attack on all

11 positions, and the headquarters of the HVO of Sarajevo and the brigade,

12 and disarmed the HVO and the brigade, and they arrested all their

13 members.

14 Q. Do you know who was arrested, specifically?

15 A. The president of the HVO, Slavko Zelic, was arrested; the brigade

16 commander, Ivan Vulic; along with a few other people that I can't tell

17 you the names of now. I can't remember.

18 Q. As you were in Mostar yourself, or, rather, Medjugorje at that

19 time, tell me how you came to learn about this?

20 A. First of all, the information came to me through the media, on

21 the news bulletins, and later on people talked about it -- or, rather, it

22 appeared in the press, and we heard what happened in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Just to correct line 9 of page 28, you said Vulic, I believe, was

24 the name you mentioned, Slavko Vulic.

25 A. No, Ivan Vulic was the name, and Slavko Zelic.

Page 37720

1 Q. I see, thank you. So you heard about this on television, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you know what happened after that with the Kralj Tvrtko

4 Brigade in Sarajevo?

5 A. The brigade was transformed into the B and H -- into a B and H

6 Army brigade, which was called the Hrvatska Brigada, and the commander

7 who was appointed to the brigade was --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So was the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo abolished, practically?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right, very well. Now I'm going to ask you to look at some

13 documents about that.

14 Can we please look at document 2D 01 --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

16 understand how the brigade you belonged to was transformed. It turned

17 into the Croatian Brigade of the ABiH. From what we understand, there

18 was an attack on the positions of the HVO on the 6th of December, and

19 people are captured and disarmed. Everybody was disarmed. When the

20 Croatian Brigade was formed, were there weapons handed over to the Croats

21 again, were they told that they were a Croatian brigade as part of the

22 ABiH? Is that how things happened or not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of December, in the

24 morning, a special unit of the B and H Army and the police attacked the

25 positions and the headquarters of the HVO. After that, members of the

Page 37721

1 HVO were arrested and taken to certain rooms, such as the Alija Alagic

2 School in Novo Sarajevo, which is where they kept them detained. And as

3 I later found out, a lot of people were beaten, abused. They were forced

4 to swallow the Croatian markings that they wore. The Croatian flag was

5 taken down and thrown away. Then those people were individually placed

6 in the new brigade which was part of the B and H Army, and it was named

7 the Hrvatska Brigade, probably for some political reasons that I'm not

8 aware of.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when the ABiH took control

10 of the brigade, were there casualties, dead or injured people?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no dead. I know that

12 there were some wounded, yes, and some people were beaten. When the

13 disarming took place, the HVO did not put up any resistance, any military

14 resistance.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. But this line that was

16 occupied by the Croats, was it held by the same people or were Muslim

17 ABiH soldiers put there to replace the HVO unit?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I heard, other units were

19 brought there to guard that line, and then later this new brigade was

20 supposed to again take up some of those lines.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Please continue, Ms. Nozica.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, let us first make a correction. On page 29, line 16,

25 you said that this intervention against the brigade was carried out by

Page 37722

1 the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the MUP. We don't have that in the

2 transcript, that the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the MUP made this

3 intervention in relation to the HVO brigade.

4 A. Yes, special units of the MUP.

5 Q. Can you please explain this? The newly-formed Croatian Brigade,

6 did it have a completely different status and composition than the HVO

7 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade? Can you please explain the status and composition

8 issue?

9 A. It had a completely different position within the B and H Army.

10 It was exactly the same as any other unit or formation within the B and A

11 Army. I think it had some sort of a number, 141st or something

12 Infantry Brigade. We were part before of the units in the Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina Army, but this new brigade was a part of the B and H Army.

14 Q. And was the HVO unit practically part of the armed forces in the

15 defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes, we were always considered to be a part of that.

17 Q. If I understood you correctly, the newly-formed brigade was a

18 brigade of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we now look at a few documents about these events. These are

21 documents 2D 1193 -- can you please tell me when you find the document?

22 A. I've found it.

23 Q. This is a letter from Mr. Boban. Through Mr. Pogarcic, his

24 adviser, that he's sending to General Francis Briquemont, the commander

25 of UNPROFOR. The document is dated the 2nd of October, 1993, so this is

Page 37723

1 before all of these events?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In this first part of the letter, Mr. Boban writes about the

4 ultimatum that evidently the 1st Corps issued to the HVO at that time,

5 and it talks about how important the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade was in the

6 defence of Sarajevo, how many of its members were killed. It talks about

7 a large percentage, in terms of the overall percentage of the Croatian

8 population, which is 8 per cent, and how many Croats were killed in the

9 conflict, and he's asking for these activities to be stopped, the ones

10 that were leading to the abolishment of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, and the

11 consequences of what -- of that, if that were to happen. And it says

12 this is one of the most openly-addressed public calls to ethnic cleansing

13 and genocide against the Croats. Later, did this actually take place?

14 The ultimatum was not withdrawn, and after that did it actually happen

15 that the brigade was abandoned, abolished, and that never existed again?

16 A. Yes, the brigade was abolished, and you can see on the basis of

17 this letter that the heads of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna were

18 informed about the steps that the B and H Army would take in relation to

19 the Sarajevo HVO.

20 Q. Can you look at 2D 01188? That's the next document. The

21 Presidency of the HDZ City Board is sending a letter on the 9th of

22 November, 1993, to the president of the B and H Republic and the

23 prime minister of the republic, but you can see from this first part that

24 it was a kind of public proclamation, where also all the events of the

25 16th of November, 1993, are explained. But there is something very

Page 37724

1 interesting that is said here about the attitude of the armija before

2 these events, and this is somewhere in the second paragraph, third

3 sentence, where it says:

4 "For the contribution of the Croats in the defence of the city,

5 as well as exceptionally good cooperation, 15 days ago the commanders of

6 the HVO units were commended publicly by Dr. Karavelic, the commander of

7 the 1st Corps ..."

8 This is the gentleman that you mentioned who for a while was the

9 deputy commander and then the commander?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does this not indicate, in fact, Mr. Pinjuh, without us going

12 into any kind of speculation about why the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army did

13 that in that particular period --

14 MS. MOE: Your Honours, if I may, I apologise for my interruption

15 again, but once again there is a leading question from counsel on

16 page 33, line 2: "Does this not indicate, in fact ..." And I again ask

17 for more openly-phrased questions.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]

20 THE COURT: You are right. Please rephrase your question,

21 Ms. Nozica.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Sir, does this document indicate that cooperation up until 15

24 days before the events with the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army was

25 professional?

Page 37725

1 A. I am convinced that it was professional from our side.

2 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you to look at the next document.

3 This is 1D 2173. And please tell me when you've found the document.

4 A. I found it.

5 Q. All right. This is another document.

6 I would like to ask the Prosecutor to turn her microphone off, if

7 possible. We are being disturbed, and we can also hear everything, and

8 that is not quite good.

9 Anyway, this is another document from the 9th of November, 1993,

10 signed by Stjepan Pocernja [phoen]. It's sent to the president of the

11 republic, Franjo Tudjman, Mate Boban, Jadranko Prlic, Mr. Slobodan

12 Praljak. They are all being informed about what happened with the HVO

13 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo. Does this also confirm what you told

14 us? You knew about what happened?

15 A. Well, it was publicly known with what had happened in Sarajevo,

16 and everybody began to react, whoever was concerned about it, and they

17 asked for protection of the Croatian people in Sarajevo.

18 Q. According to your knowledge, did a large number of Croats move

19 out of Sarajevo after these events?

20 A. I think that this did have an effect on the relationship between

21 Croats and Bosniaks in Sarajevo and that Croats, for this reason, decided

22 to leave Sarajevo.

23 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at document 2D 01179.

24 Witness, can you please tell us what this is about? What is this

25 document?

Page 37726

1 A. This is a document issued in 1997 about all those who were --

2 Croats who were killed defending Sarajevo.

3 Q. We have three HVO, HOS, and the Kralj Tvrtko Croatian Brigade

4 insignia. I'm only going to ask you about HOS. At the time when you

5 were a member of the brigade, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, did you cooperate

6 in Sarajevo with the HOS?

7 A. We knew that it existed, but we did not think it was necessary

8 for them to -- well, we thought a it would be good for them to join the

9 HVO brigades, but actually they continued to operate under the direct

10 command of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,

12 because all this is very complex, the HOS was under the direct command of

13 the ABiH, was it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was part of their forces under

15 this name.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was the commander of the

17 HOS in Sarajevo?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Matanovic, something like that.

19 I'm not quite sure, but it's something that is easy to find out.

20 Matosin, something like that. I knew who it was at the time.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this HOS unit, I guess that

22 there were also Croats?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, mostly Croats and Bosniaks.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were mostly Croats and

25 Bosniaks. Do you know the ratio?

Page 37727

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were more

2 Bosniaks than Croats, because the Croats mostly took up the high-ranking

3 or leadership positions within the HOS, and that the Bosniaks, who

4 accepted the HOS programme, constituted its forces.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were the HOS units

6 deployed in and around Sarajevo that were part of the ABiH?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that they had lines

8 that they were holding. I think that they were billeted in a school that

9 was used as a temporary war facility, and they were billeted there, they

10 were staying there. I don't know what sort of tasks they were carrying

11 out.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, we have a list, as part of this document, that lists the

15 members of these three units. This is a list of what?

16 A. These are the defenders of the HVO who were killed, and then the

17 HOS defenders, and the defenders of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade. All of

18 them were defending Sarajevo and were killed. The Kralj Tvrtko Brigade

19 was later disbanded.

20 Q. When we're talking about the members of the Kralj Tvrtko HVO

21 Brigade who were killed, the data refers mostly to 1992, and they

22 indicate the number of those killed from the Croatian Kralj Tvrtko

23 Brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, we have 100 names here in this list. Are these definitive

Page 37728

1 numbers?

2 A. I think this is a document from 1997. Today, I think we have a

3 complete record and that there were many more ethnic Croats who were

4 killed in the defence of Sarajevo.

5 Q. Now I'm going to move to a topic that deals with the convoy of

6 citizens who left Sarajevo, so now I'm just briefly going to --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I believe Ms. Nozica

8 made a mistake.

9 I'm looking at the list of these hundred individuals who were

10 killed. I can see that some were killed in 1992, others in 1993, and

11 also in 1994.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are three coats of arms, one

13 for those killed in 1992 and 1993 as members of the HVO, those who were

14 killed in 1994 were members of this new brigade that was part of the

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina Army, and there were some members of the HOS as

16 well.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, were most

18 of these people killed in 1992, in 1993, or in 1994?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of them were killed in 1992

20 and 1993.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I asked you to look at 2D 00454. Witness, I would just like you

24 to tell me when you find the document.

25 A. I have found the document.

Page 37729

1 Q. This is a document of the 7th of April, 1994. It's already

2 become an exhibit, so it's not necessary to go through it. I'm only

3 interested in one thing. You mentioned the liaison officer of the HVO in

4 Sarajevo, Mr. Rill, Anton, and at the top there is his name?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, April 7th, 1993.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When the convoy of citizens was leaving Sarajevo, did you, the

8 HVO Brigade in Sarajevo, have any assignments? Did you help in any way

9 when this was going on?

10 A. Any time a convoy was organised, our military police from the

11 brigade was charged with taking the citizens to the convoy from wherever

12 they were departing from in Sarajevo, and we were always available to all

13 the humanitarian organisations, if they needed any assistance.

14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Rill, did he have the task of

15 ensuring free passage for the convoy further on, upon leaving Sarajevo?

16 A. Well, if he was included in the convoys, then that would have

17 been one of his --

18 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like to avoid to do the same again and

19 again, but I would also like you -- to ask you, Ms. Nozica, and also the

20 witness, really to slow down, to speak only after a break after a

21 question, and then answer, because it is -- it cannot be followed. And

22 it was by this Bench many times stressed that it is in your interest that

23 everything should be recorded completely, which is in your interests for

24 us to read and to know.

25 Thank you.

Page 37730

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I am

2 doing my best, and looking at the transcript as well, and I see that the

3 questions and answers are being recorded. But I assume it's a little

4 more difficult to interpret.

5 Q. Now, I asked you yesterday to make pauses, Witness, between my

6 questions and your answers, but we get carried away, I suppose. I was

7 asking you about what you knew about the role of Mr. Rill or, rather, the

8 liaison officer, upon the convoy leaving Sarajevo. Do you know what his

9 duties were in that regard?

10 A. His duties were to inform UNPROFOR about the convoy and to try

11 and get permission for its free passage through areas held by the HVO for

12 destinations in third countries or in Croatia.

13 Q. Let's look at 2D 1190 now, please.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. You've

15 just said something in passing very quickly. It may have escaped

16 everybody, but for me, because I'm listening to your every word.

17 If I understand properly, there were convoys leaving Sarajevo.

18 People would get into buses, because we can see there are numbers of

19 buses, and these people would leave Sarajevo. And then you added

20 something, but very quickly, so quickly that it was difficult to follow.

21 You said that these people might go to Croatia or to third countries.

22 Does this mean that there was or there were people, Croats, Serbs, or

23 Muslims, I don't know, going from Sarajevo to Croatia or to third

24 countries?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, those convoys were.

Page 37731

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So these convoys were

2 organised. And did these people leave in order to go somewhere safe or

3 did they go for other reasons? You see, I'm very cautious in asking you

4 all these questions.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people mostly went to take

6 refuge somewhere where it was safe, because they were mostly civilians;

7 women, children, and elderly persons.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that they

9 mostly went for safety reasons. So the people who would leave, did they

10 leave because they had decided to go or was there a plan, an agreed plan

11 for them to leave?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was done under

13 the Red Cross organisation, the convoy. So as the lists were drawn up

14 stating -- now, who drew up the list stating who had the right to leave

15 in a convoy, I don't know.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You think that it was organised

17 by the Red Cross?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly, they were the protagonists

19 of this.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] We have just a little time before

22 the break, but we can look at the next document, which to a large measure

23 explains what Judge Antonetti was asking us about, and the document is 2D

24 1190.

25 Q. Have you found the document?

Page 37732

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is, in fact, a very long list of persons travelling to

3 Croatia, as it says, whereas it is a programme to deal with sick

4 children, the elderly, and the infirm, and it is organised by the Red

5 Cross of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this is an enormous list, and it says

6 "Split, Cairo, Croatia, Kiseljak." Anyway, we have the key. It says

7 "Trnis, Split, Zagreb, France." It says where they're going. It's an

8 enormous list of names; right, Mr. Pinjuh?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You recognise individuals on that list who left with the convoy,

11 so let's look at page 26 now, please, and let me remind you that on

12 page 26, there is the name of Mate Krasic. Do you know that he left?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, this document doesn't have a date. It's an enormous

15 document. There are children, children who are chronically ill, children

16 from various institutions, orphanages and so on, and a large number of

17 vehicles with the license plates. Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber,

18 under this name "Mr. Krasic," and perhaps anything else that you know,

19 when this convoy was organised in Sarajevo and when it left? Yes, go

20 ahead.

21 A. I think this convoy was organised sometime in November 1992.

22 Q. Was there perhaps a family member of yours leaving in the convoy?

23 A. I think that was the convoy that my father left in.

24 Q. He's not on the list? We tried to find him, but you can explain

25 to us how that took place, the lists and so on.

Page 37733

1 A. When it came to my father, as an elderly man he was no longer

2 able to -- we were no longer able to help him in Sarajevo because we were

3 taken up with our military duties, so I requested that he be included in

4 the convoy so that he could leave Sarajevo by bus, and that was done.

5 Q. Just one piece of -- more piece of information. On page 51 of

6 this document, the document is signed by --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that your father was

8 an old man. How old was he?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was born in 1930.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was 62, 63. Well, that's

11 young.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he's my father, so --

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But he wasn't a recruit or anything, so did you need permission

15 and papers from the authorities, allowing you to leave?

16 A. Yes. My father was retired in 1984 as an invalid.

17 Q. All right. Can you identify the author of this document on

18 page 51? It says "Pero Butigan." Do you know the man, and do you know

19 whether he was the president of the Red Cross at the end of 1992, as you

20 say, when this convoy left?

21 A. What page did you say?

22 Q. Page 51.

23 A. Yes, I've found it, and I know the man personally, I know Pero

24 Butigan personally. He was the president of the Herzegovina Red Cross.

25 Otherwise, he was a neighbour of mine in Sarajevo.

Page 37734

1 Q. And it says here that 2.075 individuals left on that particular

2 occasion, and we have some additions with lists of children's names. So

3 you know that, do you, that this was a very large convoy?

4 A. Well, it was certainly a large convoy, and I know that it reached

5 its destination.

6 Q. All right, fine.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Now, I might have 10 or 15 minutes

8 more after the break, so I'd like to know whether we're going to take the

9 break now, because I'm moving on to another area, my last area.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to have

11 a 20-minute break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, were you a member of any associations or

17 organisations linked to the rights of the defenders in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Yes. I was a member of the Organisers of the Defence of the HVO

20 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I am the secretary of that organisation. Let

21 me explain what kind of an association that is. The association is

22 based -- or, rather, is bent on fighting for the rights of the fighters

23 of the Croatian Defence Council, the defenders, and to protect the truth

24 about the homeland war. That is the main -- and the dignity of the

25 homeland war. That's the main premise, and that where any laws that are

Page 37735

1 passed, are passed in agreement with and looking out for the defenders.

2 Q. As a member of this association, were you included in the

3 drafting of any provisions regulating the rights of the defenders?

4 A. We always advocate suitable provisions to regulate the rights of

5 the defenders, so yes.

6 Q. Are you a member of this association on behalf of the defenders

7 of the HVO, the defenders of Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you now take a look at document 2D1182, please. Have you

10 found the document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It's a decree for pension requirements of members of the former

13 Army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and civil servants and

14 employees of the former Federal Ministry of Defence, amendments to the

15 decree on entitlement to an old-age pension under favourable conditions,

16 et cetera. Would you explain to the Court what kind of decree this is?

17 A. This is a decree which the Government of the Federation

18 proclaimed in order to enable former members of the Army of the

19 Federation, higher-ranking commanders, generals, brigadiers, and

20 defenders who had received decorations, that they can be entitled to an

21 old age pension under favourable conditions.

22 Q. Now, does this decree regulate -- does it say what decorations

23 are necessary, what commendation comes under the category which would

24 enable persons to gain benefits?

25 A. Yes, this decree did stipulate the decorations, medals, and so on

Page 37736

1 would allow people to an entitlement to an old age pension under

2 favourable conditions.

3 Q. Look at Article 1, please, now of this decree, and does it state

4 specifically what those commendations include?

5 A. Yes. Article 1 -- no, Article 1 does not specify, but they are

6 listed under the law, the law governing decorations and commendations,

7 and that law was passed in 2005.

8 Q. Now, point 2 of Article 1, does it mention that particular law,

9 the law you just mentioned, the Law on Special Rights of Recipients of

10 War Commendations and Decorations?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also said that the decree regulates, and this what it says in

13 point 3 of Article 1, which military positions entitle people to this

14 kind of pension?

15 A. Yes, that is enumerated here in Article 1.

16 Q. Now let's take a look at Article 7, and could you please tell us

17 what the dead-line was for responding to this decree?

18 A. They were duty-bound of complying by the 31st of March, 2007, and

19 it stemmed from the day the law was published in the Official Gazette.

20 Q. Now could we look at 2D1181, and could you explain to the Court

21 what that was about? 2D01181 is the number of the next document.

22 A. This is the same decree published again by the Government of the

23 Federation in the Official Gazette due to certain changes, or, rather,

24 amendments to this -- to the decree, but it specifies more or less the

25 same rights.

Page 37737

1 Q. Look at Article 4. Is the dead-line, the date, changed?

2 A. Yes. The dead-line for putting in a request has been extended to

3 2007, the 3rd of September.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, 2D1180 is the next document number I'd like us

5 to look at. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this

6 document is, and what does it actually explain?

7 A. This is a document issued by the Federation Government or,

8 rather, the Ministry of the Defenders of the Government of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these are all the duties carried out by the

10 defenders of the homeland war, and all of those who participated in the

11 war would have special terms for retirement. And these are now those

12 participants from the Croatian Defence Council.

13 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where all the names of

14 the establishment duties and the ranks are listed that refer to the HVO?

15 A. They are under item 3 and 4, where it is stated precisely at what

16 level of the unit the person commanded and what their establishment rank

17 was, based on which their retirement pension calculation was carried out.

18 Q. According to this regulation, could anybody receive early

19 retirement by the head or minister of the HVO Defence Department?

20 A. According to this regulation, they're not listed, so they could

21 not achieve their right to early retirement.

22 Q. All right. Let us look at the last document, and that is

23 2D01183. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber what this law has

24 to do with this previous regulation that we looked at?

25 A. This is the Law on Special Rights of Recipients of War

Page 37738

1 Decorations and Awards and Their Family Members, and it provides for the

2 decorations that are included in these rights, and they would be

3 receiving remuneration, up to 50 per cent of the average salary in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So those who were given these awards and decorations

5 would have a right to that, as well as they secured their rights pursuant

6 to the previous regulation that we looked at, the right to retirement.

7 Q. Could you please clarify for the Trial Chamber, even though this

8 is obvious, when was this law adopted and who adopted it? And this is on

9 the last page.

10 A. This law was suggested by the Government of the Federation, and

11 it was adopted by the Government and the Council of the Federation, and

12 it lists the awards on the basis of which these rights can be granted.

13 Q. And in which article is this referred to?

14 A. This is mentioned in Article 2 of this law.

15 Q. I'm just going to remind you that in the document 2D1182,

16 Article 1, referring to decorations and the declaration or the regulation

17 on beneficial retirement, is referred to also in Article 5, so could you

18 please look at Article 5 now?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are these decorations listed here, and can you please explain to

21 the Trial Chamber what this means? There are two tables here. Can you

22 explain them?

23 A. The decorations are listed here which were given to members of

24 the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army, this is the first column, and the second

25 column are decorations given to members of the Croatian Defence Council.

Page 37739

1 And based on that, they secured their right to a supplemental monthly

2 income.

3 Q. Now we're talking about document 2D1183 in the e-court

4 collection. Let us please wait until that appears on your screen, 1183,

5 Article 5.

6 There is the Order of the Croatian Tree Foil, the Order of Ban

7 Jelacic, the Order of Nikolas Subic Zrinski, the Order of Prince Domagoj

8 With Necklace. Who would receive these decorations? Who awarded these

9 decorations?

10 A. They were awarded by the Republic of Croatia to members of HVO

11 forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Q. And those listed on the left-hand side, that would be the Order

13 of Freedom, the Golden Lily Badge, who was awarded these decorations --

14 who awarded them?

15 A. This was awarded by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, does that mean that the right to this benefit,

17 retirement, was granted under the same conditions both to members of the

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the HVO?

19 A. Yes, they were granted this right under equal conditions.

20 Q. And, finally, you, as a member of the association that you

21 referred to earlier, do you know if members of the HVO and the

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army were granted the right according to this decree?

23 A. Yes, they have been granted and have secured this right. Those

24 who were awarded these decorations are receiving these pensions.

25 Q. Other than these who received the decorations, is the retirement

Page 37740

1 benefit granted to persons in the military hierarchy in the positions

2 that we saw in the document 2D1180?

3 A. Yes, they also have been granted this right to military pension.

4 Q. I would just like to ask you this: I was given information that

5 on page 48, line 6, in the transcript the word is missing "Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina Army."

7 A. Where is that?

8 Q. No, you don't have to worry about that. That was your answer or,

9 rather, my question. I asked you if the -- both members of the Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina Army and the HVO had the same right. In line 6, we are

11 missing the word "Army."

12 Witness, thank you very much for your answers.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

14 examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

16 question for you on the law and decree we have just seen.

17 I discover the existence of this text today, unfortunately. Had

18 I been made aware of it beforehand, I could have put questions who came

19 to testify before you, people who were involved in the political life of

20 the country, but this is not the case, and we are faced with these

21 documents at the last minute. This is why I'm putting this question to

22 you. I don't know whether you will be able to answer this question. I

23 hope you can, because you told us a while ago that you had been the

24 secretary of an association of people who got together to defend their

25 rights to a pension after the war. Therefore, in this capacity I believe

Page 37741

1 you have some understanding of these matters.

2 By looking at the law which was adopted in Parliament, which is

3 on document 2D1183, in Article 1 it is said that this applies to people

4 that have died or who are missing, members of the BiH and members of the

5 HVO also, for their role as servicemen between the 18th of September 1991

6 and the 23rd of December 1995. Did you attend these Assembly sessions

7 when these were discussed in Parliament or not?

8 A. Yes, this law was discussed in Parliament and was adopted in both

9 chambers of the Federation Assembly or Parliament.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you follow what was going

11 on in Parliament?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not engaged in any way in

13 reference to this law on military decorations.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you had followed what was

15 going on in Parliament, well, then we would have had this on the

16 transcript.

17 We had as an exhibit a decision by the Constitutional Court, who

18 declared the HVO illegal. It would be interesting to see what this

19 decision contained, since the HVO had been declared illegal, since the

20 HVO had played a part in defending the country. So this was probably

21 addressed in Parliament. It would have been interesting to get an

22 insight into this. But since you didn't follow this, you are unable to

23 answer. We may be able to elicit answers from other witnesses who will

24 come at a later stage.

25 Now, this is my last question. You, yourself, did you receive a

Page 37742

1 pension? Because you had been an HVO fighter in Sarajevo for some time,

2 you may have received a decoration. I don't know. Whatever the case may

3 be, are you currently receiving a pension or will you receive a pension?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

5 retired on the basis of the decoration, the Order of the Croatian Tree

6 Foil.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are getting a pension

8 because you were a combatant and part of the HVO and a member of the

9 Croatian Clover, the Order of the Clover.

10 So I shall now put the question to other Defence counsel.

11 Mr. Coric's Defence counsel.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

13 questions for this witness. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Ibrisimovic.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, it's been a while

18 now since we've heard you.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

20 Honours. I believe I did speak yesterday, or said a couple of words, at

21 least.

22 We have no questions for the gentleman, but we do wish to thank

23 him for coming here to give his evidence. And we wish him good luck and

24 safe travels.

25 Thank you.

Page 37743

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

3 The Defence of General Praljak also does not consider it

4 necessary to question this witness, and I would also like to thank the

5 witness for coming here.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Petkovic

8 does consider it necessary to put some questions to this witness, because

9 I believe that we have an exceptionally rare situation to hear somebody

10 who was in Sarajevo during the war, and who cooperated with the Bosnia

11 and Herzegovina Army, and who can provide some relevant information to us

12 about the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. My questions are going to deal

13 with the clarification of two statements by the witness. Another topic

14 will be the attack of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the MUP on

15 the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo. And the third topic, if there is time, will

16 deal with some regulations about the defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina to

17 see at what age somebody could be engaged in the army, and some other

18 issues pertaining to the Law on National Defence.

19 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

20 Q. Mr. Pinjuh, my name is Vesna Alaburic, I'm an attorney from

21 Zagreb, and in these proceedings I am defending General Milivoj Petkovic,

22 and I would like you to clarify one of your statements, as it seemed

23 very, very important to me.

24 When you spoke about your second exit from Sarajevo or departure

25 from Sarajevo, and when you mentioned that you were stopped at

Page 37744

1 check-points near Konjic and Jablanica, you said how mostly you were

2 surprised because the check-points were in the free territory of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The statement was recorded on page 21. Can you

4 please tell us, Mr. Pinjuh, whether these were Army of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina check-points?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does that mean that you meant in the area that was under the

8 control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was considered free

9 territory, in your opinion?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned today how, for you, it was not in

12 dispute that the HVO was a component part or an ally in the armed forces

13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This was on pages 30 to 31 of the transcript.

14 Did I understand you correctly?

15 A. Yes, you understood me correctly. I was convinced that we were

16 an integral part of the forces of -- the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 Q. My colleague showed you a decree earlier. You don't need to look

18 for it. I'm going to tell you, on the basis of the transcript, what

19 document this is. 2D1181. And in that document, Mr. Pinjuh, it says

20 that the decree refers to, I quote:

21 "Members of the former Army of the Federation of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina (the Croatian Defence Council) and the Army of the Republic

23 of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

24 Mr. Pinjuh, can you please tell us, according to what you know,

25 was there ever any dilemma that the HVO and the Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 37745

1 Army were equal components of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. In all the regulations, they are treated as equal.

3 Q. Earlier, His Honour Judge Antonetti put a question to you about a

4 decision of the Constitutional Court, this is page 50 of today's

5 transcript, which allegedly proclaimed the HVO as an illegal

6 organisation, and His Honour Judge Antonetti asked how come that members

7 of the HVO were granted certain rights. I'm going to ask you to clarify

8 this Constitutional Court decision of the Constitutional Court of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 If you know, did this decision refer to the constituting the

11 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna so that the Constitution would then

12 say that that decision on the Constitution of the HZ-HB was illegal?

13 A. I really don't know anything about that document. I cannot

14 answer that question.

15 Q. Are you aware that the Constitutional Court of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina ever adopted any decision under which the HVO, as an

17 organisation, either a civilian or a military organisation, would be

18 declared an illegal one?

19 A. I don't know when the Constitutional Court adopted that decision,

20 I really don't know, but I know that the lines that we held in Sarajevo

21 in 1992 and 1993 we were holding with the agreement -- I mean, we were

22 entrusted with guarding a certain part of Sarajevo.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, in my set of documents, and I'm going

24 to begin with document 3 in that set, and this is number 4D1266 -- take a

25 look at that document, please, because I am following on from the

Page 37746

1 examination-in-chief, in which you said, Mr. Pinjuh, that in August 1993,

2 you talked to the commander, Mr. Zelic -- yes, Zelic, and he told you

3 that the BH Army wanted to disband the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo. And also

4 we saw a document, 2D1193 was its number, in which at the end of -- at

5 the beginning of October, Mr. Boban, among other things, speaks about the

6 danger of abolishing the HVO Brigade.

7 Now let's take a look at this document together. This comes from

8 the Security Administration of the Supreme Command Staff of the

9 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it is dated

10 the 26th of September, 1993. It is signed by the chief, Jusuf Jasarevic.

11 To start off with, please, Mr. Pinjuh, tell me whether you knew

12 the Supreme Command Staff of the BH Army and that it had a Security

13 Administration?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is this name familiar, Jusuf Jasarevic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right, fine. Now, did you have any knowledge of information

18 at all to the effect that the Sarajevo Brigade would be the subject of

19 special interest and processing by the Security Administration of the

20 Supreme Command Staff?

21 A. I think that they did that continuously. They had intelligence

22 surveillance of our units on a continuous basis, and I think that they

23 took our members, the members of units, for interviews as well.

24 Q. All right. Now, in that document, let's look at page 2, and I'd

25 like to draw your attention there to a particular section at the end of

Page 37747

1 the first paragraph. The Security Administration notes that the

2 irresponsible relationship and attitude of the HVO soldiers to defence

3 tasks on the right bank of the Miljacka River, failure to carry out guard

4 duty at night, allowing the Serbs to pass through, and so on and so

5 forth, that is what is referred to.

6 Now, tell me, Mr. Pinjuh, you told us that the HVO Brigade in

7 Sarajevo performed all its tasks and responsibilities in the defence of

8 Sarajevo in the most professional manner. Do you stand by that state,

9 despite what the Security Administration says here about HVO soldiers?

10 A. I stand by what I said, that the HVO defended the line

11 professionally and did so successfully.

12 Q. All right. Now look at the next document, 4D1500 is the number,

13 and it is an order by the commander of the Main Staff, Rasim Delic, dated

14 the 28th of October, in which, in point 1 it says:

15 "Disband the HVO Main Staff of the City of Sarajevo with the

16 headquarter support units and all HVO municipal staffs established on the

17 municipality of the city of Sarajevo."

18 And then under number 2, it says:

19 "The former Kralj Tvrtko HVO Brigade is formed from the

20 territories of...," and I shall skip that part, "shall be renamed and

21 recorded from now on under the name of the Kralj Tvrtko Croatian

22 Brigade."

23 And then they go on to say that this Kralj Tvrtko Croatian

24 Brigade is hereby placed under direct command of the BH Army 1st Corps.

25 And in point 4, it says that these tasks should be implemented

Page 37748

1 immediately. And under point 2 of Chapter 4, it says that the Croatian

2 Brigade should be entered in the schedule of the basic mobilisation plan

3 of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 1st Corps

4 section, straight away.

5 Now, having seen this order, Mr. Pinjuh, can you tell us whether

6 that was the order by the commander of the BH Army stating that an attack

7 should be launched on the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo, to have that brigade

8 disbanded and renamed into a Croatian brigade and put under the 1st Corps

9 of the BH Army establishment?

10 A. From this order, yes, we could say that that was their intention.

11 Q. Now let's look at the next document, which is 4D1714, and that's

12 the last document in my set. Once again, the Security Administration of

13 the Supreme Command Staff of the BH Army. It is dated the 25th of

14 November, 1993, and here we have an analysis of what has been achieved,

15 what was done. Let's try and focus on some points that I consider to be

16 most significant, because it's rather a long document and we don't have

17 time to go through the whole of it.

18 Anyway, in the introduction, it says that:

19 "The associate forces of our army and the MUP carried out a

20 blockade of the HVO Main Staff and units, and parts of the defence lines

21 in Sarajevo that were held by members of the HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade."

22 Tell me, please, Mr. Pinjuh, is that precisely what you described

23 earlier on, whereby the special MUP units and the BH Army attacked HVO

24 units?

25 A. Yes, those were my -- that was my information.

Page 37749

1 Q. Now we come to the next observation made. After all the plan

2 measures were implemented to disband the Main Staff --

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Ms. Alaburic. This may be again a

4 linguistic point.

5 In this report, I read the words "carried out a blockade on the

6 HVO Main Staff and units, and parts of the defence line." You have used

7 the word "attack." Is it one and the same word in Croatian? If not, it

8 might be interesting to know the difference.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you my

10 thoughts on those words now, and concepts, and perhaps Mr. Praljak, as a

11 well-known linguist, could explain this better. But let me tell you of

12 my understanding of this.

13 An attack can be launched in different ways. You can carry out

14 an attack in different ways. You can carry out an attack by blocking

15 someone in a facility or feature, or at a certain position, and then make

16 it impossible for that other party to act in any way, and then as that

17 party surrenders, you disarm them, and then go ahead that way. Now, in

18 my opinion, what happened in Sarajevo was that kind of attack.

19 Of course, there can be other types of attack with shooting and

20 more aggressive taking control of a territory, if the party wish to

21 block -- puts up resistance.

22 Now, as the witness said there was no armed resistance, that

23 means that this type of attack, which is called here a blockade, was put

24 in place, and the BH Army and the MUP units achieved their goal that way.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

Page 37750

1 Mr. Pinjuh, can you confirm this? Is this the way you understood

2 it?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how I understood it.

4 And I think that the Geneva Conventions were violated on captured members

5 of the other side, where they were beaten, taken into detention, as

6 expressed in these reports, and everything took place on the day when the

7 blockade was put in place; and the leadership of the HVO, President Zelic

8 was arrested, so was Commander Vulic, and part of the leadership was --

9 were also arrested.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We've had that. As I'm concerned, you can

11 continue, Ms. Alaburic, but I don't know whether the President wants --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 Witness, it may be more complicated than you think. I'm sure

14 that you don't have all the material available to you. You call this an

15 attack, but there could be another aspect to it.

16 Did you know that there was an international conference being

17 held in Geneva, aiming at finding solutions to all these problems? Did

18 you know that or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You didn't know,

21 for instance, that as part of that work, it was envisioned that, say, HVO

22 units would be incorporated into the ABiH and that ABiH units would be

23 incorporated into the HVO? Did you know that or not?

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but

25 can we clarify one point here? The Vance-Owen Plan was not to integrate

Page 37751

1 them, that is to say, the HVO units in certain areas into the BH Army and

2 vice versa, but to resubordinate them, so for something to happen which

3 actually did occur in Sarajevo throughout.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

5 One last question. Did you know, sir, that Mr. Prlic sent a

6 letter to Mr. Izetbegovic along those lines?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know Mr. Prlic, no.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You did not know. Very well.

9 Ms. Alaburic.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Now, let's see what the Security Administration goes on to say

12 further on, and the next sentence in that same paragraph is this:

13 "After that, all planned measures were carried out to disband the

14 HVO Main Staff and to transform its existing brigades into the Croatian

15 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade under the command of the 1st Corps."

16 Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, is that precisely what happened, to

17 the best of your knowledge?

18 A. Yes. The brigade was established later on, the Kralj Tvrtko

19 Brigade, and it was under the command of the 1st Corps.

20 Q. And now the next sentence reads as follows:

21 "A staff of this brigade was created and a commander appointed,

22 and the appointment of other commanders is ongoing, as well as the

23 take-over of defence lines held by the former HVO."

24 Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, to the best of your knowledge, does

25 that correspond to what the realistic situation was?

Page 37752

1 A. I think that when they established the brigade, it did carry out

2 the orders of the 1st Corps.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 2, roughly the middle of the second

4 paragraph, it says as follows, that:

5 "Seven members of the Main Staff of the HVO were arrested in

6 Sarajevo," and I'm going to mention their names, which are mentioned in

7 brackets: Slavko Zelic, Ivan Vulic -- Ivan Vulic, V-u-l-i-c, V for

8 Victoria, u-l-i-v, Tomislav Kokar, K-o-k-a-r.

9 A. Kokar, it was.

10 Q. Yes, Vinko Bosnjak, Zeljko Jukic -- Vinko Bosnjak, Zeljko Jukic,

11 and Zeljko Maric.

12 Now, tell us, Mr. Pinjuh, to the best of your knowledge, were

13 those indeed the commanders of the HVO Brigade in Sarajevo who were

14 arrested?

15 A. Ivan Vulic was the brigade commander. Tomislav Kokar was the

16 assistant for security. Vinko Bosnjak was the chief, and Slavko Zelic

17 was the president, and Zeljko Jukic was the deputy president of the HVO

18 in Sarajevo.

19 Q. Now, it goes on to say that a criminal report was filed against

20 Slavko Zelic and that the other persons expressed the obligatory loyalty

21 to the BH Army and were included into the newly-formed Croatian

22 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade through the appropriate operative measures. Now,

23 tell us, is that true, was a criminal report filed against Mr. Slavko

24 Zelic?

25 A. I think so, yes, but I'm not quite sure.

Page 37753

1 Q. All right, fine. So you don't know what happened next, do you?

2 A. I think that Ivan Vulic, as brigade commander, was never engaged

3 in the newly established brigade.

4 Q. All right. Fine. Thank you for those answers, Mr. Pinjuh.

5 And now I would like to ask you, as somebody who was in Sarajevo

6 and closely cooperated with the BH Army there, to try and help me

7 understand some documents better, and these documents are already

8 exhibits, they've already been admitted into evidence, but I think it

9 would be an important thing for the Judges to see them.

10 The first document is 4D409, and that is a decree law on the

11 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Pinjuh. Can

12 you help us to understand Article 2 of that decree law better? And this

13 is how it reads:

14 "The Republic's armed forces shall comprise of the Army of the

15 Republic, herein after the Army. In the event of war, the Armed Forces

16 shall be, in addition to the Army, the police and armed units which shall

17 be placed under the united command of the Republic's armed forces."

18 Paragraph 2:

19 "The armed units described under para 1 herein shall be

20 considered to be workers engaged in securing enterprises and other legal

21 entities and the employees of the Customs Service and other frontier

22 organs."

23 My question to you, Mr. Pinjuh, is this: If we wish to define

24 the status of the members of the armed forces of the BH Army, which in

25 these proceedings can be of importance, that is to say, whether somebody

Page 37754

1 has the status of a POW or not, then in a broad manner we should try to

2 establish whether somebody was indeed a member of the armed forces or

3 not. So am I interpreting this correctly, that this concept does not

4 only refer to the soldiers of the BH Army, in the narrow sense of the

5 word, but to all persons enumerated here as being members of the armed

6 forces? If you can't comment on that article, we can move on.

7 A. I think this second paragraph relates to the persons who had a

8 work obligation; that is to say, they weren't directly in the military

9 units, but they had a work obligation.

10 Q. So are you saying that work obligations were considered to be a

11 contribution and part and parcel of the country's defence?

12 A. Absolutely so.

13 Q. All right. We'll be able to see that in the next document, which

14 is 4D408, which is a decree law on defence, the defence of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm going to ask you, Mr. Pinjuh, about some

16 details.

17 For example, in Article 5 of that decree, it says that the

18 Republic, through its ministries and other Republican organs in the area

19 of defence, in the realm of defence, directs the resistance of the people

20 during wartime.

21 A. I apologise, but I haven't found that yet.

22 Q. Very well. It's Article 5.

23 A. What page is that?

24 Q. It says page 5 of the Official Gazette, but look at the article,

25 sir. It's Article 5, and the document number is 4D408, and it's on

Page 37755

1 page 2. You'll find Article 5 on page 2, and it says: "Directs the

2 resistance of the people in wartime."

3 And I'm interested in that, the resistance of the people in

4 wartime. Tell us, please, Mr. Pinjuh, does this provision have anything

5 to do with the total national defence concept and social self-protection,

6 as was in place in the former Yugoslavia?

7 A. Well, I don't know if I can answer that question, how the

8 Territorial Defence was organised. I'm not sure I know how to answer

9 that.

10 Q. I wasn't asking you about the Territorial Defence. I was asking

11 you about the concept of total national defence and social

12 self-protection, that concept.

13 A. Well, yes, that was a concept that was mentioned in the former

14 Yugoslavia very frequently, and exercises and training courses were

15 conducted, and so on.

16 Q. That according to that concept, each citizen of the country,

17 after a certain age, had a specific role in the defence of their country,

18 they had special rights and duties?

19 A. Yes, I knew that.

20 Q. All right, very well. Let us now look at Article 51. Let's see

21 at what age did a person start having certain duties.

22 It says here:

23 "All citizens between 15 and 60, men, or 55, women, have the

24 right and obligation to train for defence -- to attend training."

25 Mr. Pinjuh, I'm interested here, at this age of 15. Did you know

Page 37756

1 that was the age in Bosnia and Herzegovina at which a person could start

2 being trained for the defence of the country?

3 A. No, I didn't know that.

4 Q. In these proceedings, we very often had --

5 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 The last line on questioning from Counsel Alaburic, to the

7 Prosecution, seems to be outside the scope of the direct examination, so

8 we're asking for an explanation on that. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you are asking

10 questions, and I fail to see the relevance of those questions. Maybe

11 this is not the right witness for them. If you want to waste your time,

12 you're free to do so, but I don't think this is the right witness for

13 that.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you'll permit me

15 an explanation.

16 We have spent a lot of time in this courtroom discussing whether

17 under-age persons were detained in Heliodrom, Dretelj, or in any of the

18 prisons under the control of the HVO, and I think that this question,

19 asking what happens with under-age persons and what their role was in the

20 defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is one of the key questions in these

21 proceedings. If you think differently, I am very sorry, but I really do

22 consider this to be one of the main questions, and I believe that it is

23 my task in these proceedings to prove that people of 15 did have certain

24 duties in the defence in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I would like to say

25 that up until 2000, this was totally in accordance with the International

Page 37757

1 Convention on the Protection of Children in Times of War, and so on and

2 so forth.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understood you, and I'm going

4 to show that I understood, because I'm going to ask the witness. Were

5 they individuals aged 15 or 16 who were combatting with you in Sarajevo;

6 15, 16, or 17?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not accept under-age members

8 in the brigade. We took care that we accepted only those as members who

9 had served their military term of duty in the Army of Yugoslavia.

10 Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

11 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President. The remark from the

12 Prosecution did go to the line of questioning being outside the scope of

13 direct examination, so that was our concern, and I don't think that

14 counsel has replied to that.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will see

16 whether some time should be deducted from Ms. Alaburic's time and

17 credited to the time for examination-in-chief.

18 Continue.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, basically I have

20 finished my cross-examination, in view of the fact that the witness said

21 that he's not aware of these regulations about the age limits. I have no

22 intention of putting him -- to him any questions about the armed forces

23 of the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Mr. Pinjuh, I would like to thank you for your questions.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question. Let's

Page 37758

1 go back to document 4D1266, drawn up by Jusuf Jasarevic.

2 Sir, it's an ABiH document, isn't it, showing the views of the

3 party that was the adversary of the HVO. Have you found the document?

4 I'm interested in the second line there, where Mr. Jusuf mentions

5 clashes between the HVO and the ABiH in Central Bosnia and in the Neretva

6 Valley. When I saw that word "clashes," I asked myself what it meant

7 precisely, because I don't know what word was used in your own language.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Okrsaj".

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "Okrsaj." I see. Does that

10 mean skirmishes or conflict? From your point of view - we know that at

11 some point in time you were in Sarajevo and then you left Sarajevo - the

12 fighting between the HVO and the ABiH, was that "okrsaj" for you, just

13 sort of every now and then some skirmishes and then there would be a

14 lull, or did you have large-scale actions?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the scale of the

16 conflict was in the theatre in the different municipalities in Central

17 Bosnia. As far as Herzegovina is concerned, I think that at the

18 beginning of the conflict, lines were set up right at the start, and

19 everybody was holding those lines until further notice, and then we had

20 clashes at those lines. But I'm really not aware of the details.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I want to record on the

22 transcript that an official ABiH document mentioned skirmishes.

23 Let me move to the last document, 4D1714. Towards the middle of

24 the document, earlier on Ms. Alaburic put a question to you, saying that

25 there was a criminal report against Slavko Zelic for six alleged crimes,

Page 37759

1 but she did not read the rest. It also appears that the three liaison

2 officers were involved or were mentioned in the report, because the ABiH

3 seems to incriminate Anton Rill for aiding the enemy.

4 We've never seen Anton Rill. This is the first time we've heard

5 about him. Was he that close to you that one could be led to believe

6 that he was "collaborating" with the HVO, or was he neutral? Would he

7 just report to his chain of command the information he would get? Why,

8 in your view, is he being incriminated by the ABiH?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anton Rill was a liaison officer of

10 the HVO with UNPROFOR, the HVO Sarajevo, so he set up cooperation between

11 the UNPROFOR and the Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why is he being incriminated by

13 the ABiH?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there was a lot of

15 propaganda here and unfounded accusations.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you think it's propaganda.

17 Very well.

18 Is the Prosecution ready to start with their cross-examination ?

19 MS. MOE: We're entirely in your hands, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you can start, and then

21 we'll have a break at 12.30. Since you have two hours, we can continue

22 tomorrow.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like a

24 clarification. Perhaps I didn't understand sufficiently, but I think

25 that in the beginning you said that there would be enough time allocated

Page 37768

1 and a quarter to the Prosecutor.

2 The Trial Chamber would also like to ask Defence counsel, in the

3 future, if they intend to change the time allocated in the time they

4 need, to let everybody know beforehand so that the Trial Chamber can take

5 all appropriate decisions.

6 The Trial Chamber would also like to ask the Prosecution, in the

7 event that a given witness may require extra time, to seize the Chamber

8 of this matter by providing its submissions and spelling out why this

9 extra time is needed.

10 Therefore, as far as this particular witness is concerned,

11 Ms. Moe, you have an hour and a quarter. Since you have seven documents,

12 I think you have ample time.

13 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Moe:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pinjuh. My name is Hedvig Moe.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. I am a lawyer with the Prosecution, and I will be asking you some

18 questions.

19 I'd first like to you look up one of the documents in the binder

20 that you discussed with Ms. Nozica, and that would be the binder that

21 you've already looked at, the bigger one, and it's number 2D01185.

22 2D01185.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's the first document in the binder.

24 MS. MOE:

25 Q. You've found it, Mr. Pinjuh?

Page 37769

1 A. Yes. Just a moment, please.

2 Q. That document you already discussed with Ms. Nozica, and it is a

3 document signed by Bruno Stojic. It's from the Defence Department. And

4 we see, up in the left-hand corner, that it's dated December 5th, 1992,

5 in Mostar, and to the attention of Mr. Slavko Zelic, and it regards --

6 considers the appointment of Mr. Zelic to the commander of the brigade

7 that you were with at the time. And this document, did I understand you

8 correctly that it was received at the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade at the time?

9 A. Yes, you understood me correctly.

10 Q. And would the document have been received at the brigade on or

11 around or right after the date that it was written or sent off, being

12 December 5th, 1992?

13 A. You're probably right.

14 Q. How was it received? How was it sent and received at the

15 brigade? We can see, as I said, that it was signed by Mr. Stojic, and I

16 wonder what means of communication that was used. Was it fax, was it

17 regular mail?

18 A. I think somebody brought it to Sarajevo, but I'm not sure who.

19 Q. So you are saying you think it was delivered by hand, by a

20 person?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Another document that you also looked at with

23 Ms. Nozica, and that has number 2D01777. Sorry, 2D01177.

24 Do you have the document, Mr. Pinjuh?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37770

1 Q. As I mentioned, you talked to Ms. Nozica about this one as well.

2 This is -- this goes to appointments to the Command of the brigade that

3 you were with, and you are mentioned as number 1, "deputy commander,"

4 I think it should be; is that correct? And we see up again on the

5 left-hand side, that it's dated December 29th, 1992, in Mostar, and we

6 can see on page 2 of the document that again it's a document signed by

7 Mr. Bruno Stojic. And next to his signature, we can see that it says

8 that it's to be delivered to the Command of the Brigade of Kralj Tvrtko,

9 as well as the HVO main headquarters and the Personnel Administration.

10 Was this document also received at the brigade?

11 A. When I left Sarajevo in January, I personally picked up this

12 document and brought it to the brigade.

13 Q. So it had not been sent or delivered to the brigade beforehand;

14 is that what you're saying?

15 A. No, no, it wasn't sent. I delivered it.

16 Q. And where did you -- where did you pick it up?

17 A. The Personnel Department of the Defence Department in Mostar.

18 Q. And then you brought it to Sarajevo; is that correctly understood

19 by me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So that means you picked it up at the Defence Department in

22 Mostar; correct?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And that's where Stojic had his office; right?

25 A. That was where the Defence Department was and that's where

Page 37771

1 Mr. Stojic was as well.

2 Q. Thank you. So when you say you brought it back to the brigade,

3 when was that?

4 A. Sometime towards the end of January 1993.

5 Q. Was that when you came back from a trip to get resources for the

6 HVO Brigade in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Thank you. One more document, still in the same binder. It's

9 number 2D01195. This is also a document that you discussed with

10 Ms. Nozica. We see that this one is signed by Slavko Zelic, the

11 commander of the Brigade of the Kralj Tvrtko, and we see up to -- on the

12 left-hand corner that it's going to the main headquarters in Mostar, and

13 it's dated February 25th, 1993, in Sarajevo. And did I understand you

14 correctly that this document partly goes to the reason for your trip to

15 get resources for the brigade?

16 A. Yes. On the second occasion, we asked for the same resources.

17 Q. Did this document arrive in Mostar at the HVO HZ-HB headquarters?

18 A. It was protocoled, registered, so I think so, yes.

19 Q. And where do you see that it's registered in Mostar?

20 A. I apologise. I thought it was the protocol in Mostar, but it

21 says "Kralj Tvrtko Brigade." That's the seal. So I don't know. I

22 wasn't in that convoy.

23 Q. So what you're referring to, just to clarify that, that's the

24 stamp up on the right-hand side of the document, and that refers to it

25 being sent from the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in Sarajevo; correct?

Page 37772

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. And then you might have answered it already, but just to get a

3 clear reply again: Was this document received in Mostar at the HVO

4 headquarters?

5 A. I assume that it was, because the people who took this document

6 arrived.

7 Q. What do you mean by "the people who took this document"?

8 A. Well, I can see here that Damjan Moro, a commander of the brigade

9 military police, left with this, and I met him in Mostar.

10 Q. So where it does say that Moro left with this document?

11 A. I don't know. I know that I met him, I met Moro, who had left

12 Sarajevo.

13 Q. So am I understanding you correctly that you knew Moro was going

14 on this convoy, you met him, and you think that he brought the document

15 with him from Sarajevo? Am I understanding you correctly?

16 A. Reading his name here, then I assume that it could have been done

17 by him.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up.

19 Thank you.

20 MS. MOE:

21 Q. I'll move on to another document, Witness, and this is in the

22 little blue binder that you just got, the one on your right-hand side.

23 So in the little blue binder, it's number 2D00996.

24 And I'm being asked by the people assisting us here that,

25 Mr. Pinjuh, you please speak into the microphone so they can hear you for

Page 37773

1 the interpretation.

2 This is a document that you can see, on the first page in the

3 B/C/S version and on the second page in the English version, is signed by

4 Bruno Stojic again, and on the first page we see that it's dated March

5 the 1st, 1993. It's just one page in the B/C/S version.

6 A. [In English] Number?

7 Q. It's 2D00996. You first have the English version, and behind the

8 English version is the B/C/S version of the document. Do you have it

9 there, Mr. Pinjuh?

10 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. As I said, we can see that it's signed by

12 Mr. Bruno Stojic, and up in the left-hand corner we see it's dated the

13 1st of March, 1993. And towards the end of the document, we can see that

14 it's going to the HVO main headquarters and to the Command of the

15 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade. Can you see that, Witness?

16 A. Yes, I can see that.

17 Q. Did you receive this document at the brigade in Sarajevo?

18 A. I can't answer that with any certainty, but I think that we ought

19 to have received this document.

20 Q. Why do you think you ought to have received this document?

21 A. Because the document indicates how mobilisation should be

22 developed of the brigade, and organised.

23 Q. So this is information that you assume that the brigade had,

24 don't you?

25 A. I assume that, yes.

Page 37774

1 Q. And can you say anything about how you assume the document made

2 it to Sarajevo from Mostar?

3 A. I assume somebody brought it.

4 Q. So if you look just above, where it says that it's going to be

5 sent to the main headquarters and to the Command of the Kralj Tvrtko

6 Brigade, it says:

7 "Summary from amendments of the mobilisation development to be

8 delivered to:"

9 Can you see that? And is that the reason why you think it was --

10 it was brought by a person to Sarajevo?

11 A. Well, if it arrived in the Personnel Administration of the

12 brigade, then I assume somebody brought it there.

13 Q. Okay, thank you. A document that goes to a bit of a different

14 issue. We're still in the little binder that you have in front of you,

15 and it's number 2D01196. It's a bit further to the back. It's the last

16 document, it should be. 2D01196.

17 Do you have the document, Witness?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And this is, as we can see from the date on the left-hand corner,

20 it's from 7th of November, 1993, and it says : "To the attention of the

21 HVO Main Staff Mostar." That's to the right, the right-hand corner, and

22 to the Citluk Forward Command Post. And if you go look at the -- to the

23 end of the document, it is signed by Colonel Ivica Rajic. Can you see

24 that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37775

1 Q. And Ivica Rajic, he was with the HVO, was he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In Kiseljak; is that right?

4 A. In Kiseljak, right, yes.

5 Q. If you go to point or number 2 in the document, that refers to

6 Sarajevo, and it goes to, it says in that paragraph after Sarajevo, it

7 says:

8 "According to the information we have, the Croats in Sarajevo,

9 that is, Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, has been disarmed ..."

10 And it goes on about that same topic. What I want to ask you

11 about, though, is the last sentence of that paragraph, and it says:

12 "We will obtain more information about the events in Sarajevo

13 from the XY side and forward it to you."

14 The XY side, that's the Serbs, isn't it?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer. We

16 didn't hear him.

17 MS. MOE:

18 Q. You will have to repeat your answer, Witness, because the

19 interpreters didn't hear you, so we didn't get any interpretation. So

20 could you please repeat what you said to my last question, which was

21 whether -- or I said: The XY side, that was the Serbs, wasn't it?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. You don't know. You've never seen references to the XY side in

24 any HVO documents?

25 A. No.

Page 37776

1 Q. So when it says here -- it refers to these events in November

2 1993. We can agree on that, can't we, that you've been also talking

3 about the 6th of November, 1993 disarmament of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And then Rajic says:

7 "We will obtain more information about the event in Sarajevo..."

8 And do you also agree with me that that should be the same event,

9 what happened on the 6th of November, 1993?

10 A. Yes, that is the event.

11 Q. And then he says that he will obtain more information about this

12 event that happened from the XY side. Who is the XY side?

13 MR. KOVACIC: The question is asked and answered, Your Honours.

14 This is my objection.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the question was asked

16 already.

17 MS. MOE: I wanted to, Mr. President, if I may, I wanted to ask

18 the witness in the context of the actual document here, to see if we

19 could get closer to an answer to what the XY side reference might be.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Context is absolutely the same. In the first

21 instance, the paragraph of the document was read and the question was put

22 and answered, and now again the same story, asked and answered.

23 MS. MOE: If I may, Your Honours, my question was: Is the XY

24 side a reference to the Serbs. The witness said he didn't know. I'd

25 like to ask him an open question to try and find out if we can establish

Page 37777

1 who the XY side was. So I'm trying to get that question answered.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: At this point, Your Honour, it calls for

3 speculation. Now we're asking the witness to speculate. If the witness

4 doesn't know, he doesn't know. You have to move on. She has to accept

5 the answer and move on, as opposed to trying to pose 50 questions, try to

6 guess.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, the witness

8 said he didn't know, and I myself, I wondered -- I wonder who this XY

9 side was. One could think they were the Serbs, but the witness said he

10 didn't know. So please continue. We've heard other witnesses.

11 Please continue.

12 MS. MOE:

13 Q. Let me ask you a different question, then, Witness. Did the HVO

14 and the Serbs in Sarajevo share information with each other while you

15 were there?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again, when she says "Serbs," what

17 does she mean by "Serbs"? Are we talking about residents of Sarajevo,

18 are we talking about some military unit? What is it?

19 MS. MOE: Let me rephrase.

20 Q. Did the HVO and the VRS in Sarajevo share information with each

21 other?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: At which point in time are we speaking of? When

23 was the VRS operating in Sarajevo, especially when Sarajevo was under

24 siege? I mean, in some cases, the Prosecution is prosecuting the VRS

25 commanders for the siege of Sarajevo. Now are we to assume that there

Page 37778

1 was a unit of VRS operating in and around Sarajevo at the time when the

2 HVO was also working in conjunction with the ABiH?

3 MS. MOE: I'll rephrase again.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, one moment.

5 You only come occasionally to the courtroom, so you're not that familiar

6 with the proceedings. I just wanted to inform you that basically

7 constantly or continuously we have objections by the Defence counsel when

8 the time-period fails to be mentioned. Sometimes it is relevant;

9 sometimes it is not.

10 So now that you know that, think of it when you put questions,

11 but keep in mind at all times the issue of time. Well, we know that 1991

12 is not 1992, 1992 is not 1993, and 1993 is not 1994, et cetera. We know

13 that the witness stayed in Sarajevo until 1992, that he was there early

14 1993, and then he left Sarajevo. So there are things he knows and things

15 he doesn't.

16 This date is the 7th of November, 1993. You should first ask him

17 where he was on that date, because if he was in Zagreb, or in Paris, or

18 London, he might not know anything. So, please, ask him where he was,

19 and, thereafter, ask questions with a time-period to avoid objections by

20 the Defence, which is a waste of time.

21 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 The foundation for my question was meant to be the time-period

23 that the witness was in Sarajevo, and that has been established to --

24 well, spring of 1992, that's when his involvement with the HVO Brigade

25 started, and he was there until April 1993, or end of March, beginning of

Page 37779

1 April, 1993. So I will refer to, then, the Serbs, by the "Serbs" I'll

2 refer to the Serb military, let me put it that way, and I'll ask again.

3 Q. While you were with the HVO Brigade of Kralj Tvrtko in Sarajevo,

4 did you share -- did you and the Serb military share information?

5 A. What period do you mean, specifically, in 1992?

6 Q. I can break it down. Let's say first from April 1992. Let's

7 start there. April 1992 to June 1992, did the HVO Kralj Tvrtko Brigade

8 or, excuse me, the HVO brigade or battalion that you were with, did you

9 share information with the Serbs during that period?

10 A. No. In that period, we did not have any contacts with the Serb

11 Army, none whatsoever.

12 Q. So am I understanding you correctly that you didn't give them

13 information and you didn't receive information from them, because there

14 was no contact; is that what you're saying?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. So that is what you're saying?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Let's go to June 1992, say, to October 1992. During that time

19 did the HVO in Sarajevo, to your knowledge, share information with the

20 Serb military?

21 A. I don't know that the HVO shared information with the Serb Army

22 in June 1992, no. If you're thinking of my brigade, no, absolutely not.

23 Q. So I'm understanding you -- am I understanding you correctly that

24 your brigade, during that period, did not share information with the

25 Serbs; correct?

Page 37780

1 A. In that period, we did not have a brigade. We had a battalion in

2 the -- in Novo Sarajevo that had its assignments.

3 Q. So are you relating your answer, then, to the Novo Sarajevo

4 Battalion, and you're saying the Novo Sarajevo Battalion did not share

5 information with the Serbs?

6 A. Yes, I was the commander of Novo Sarajevo. No, no.

7 Q. How about the other battalions; did you hear about any of those

8 sharing information with the Serbs?

9 A. I don't believe that in the difficult position that prevailed in

10 Sarajevo, anyone wished to share information with the Serbs. Only if ...

11 Q. Sir, does that mean you didn't know about any sharing of

12 information with the Serbs during that period?

13 A. I certainly didn't know.

14 Q. My last question was related to up until October 1992. We know

15 you stayed there until end of March, beginning of April -- I don't

16 appreciate the comments coming from the accused.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're quite right. Please

18 continue.

19 MS. MOE: Thank you.

20 Q. Going back to where I was: We stopped at October 1992 with my

21 last question, and you were there until March/April 1993. Was there ever

22 a time that you know about sharing of information between the Serbs and

23 the Croats, and then I'm speaking about the military forces that were

24 stationed there?

25 A. All I knew was the humanitarian route in the area of Stup, to

Page 37781

1 leave that area leading to Kiseljak, and nothing else.

2 Q. Okay, thank you. Just one clarification. Am I right in

3 understanding, from your examination or the examination by Ms. Nozica,

4 that you were not in Sarajevo --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question on

6 this document.

7 Witness, we know that you were not in Sarajevo in November, that

8 we know, but this is quite a striking document in many a way. I'd like

9 to hear your view, as a former battalion commander.

10 This Colonel, Ivica Rajic, is writing to the headquarters on the

11 7th of November to address the issue of Vares, that of civilians and

12 soldiers in Vares, and I'm amazed because he seems to be interested in

13 the situation in Sarajevo. He is in Kiseljak, and from there he

14 learned - we don't know how - he learned that the Tvrtko Brigade was

15 disarmed, that there is a new commander, and so forth, and it appears

16 that he's requesting from the headquarters to seek information on the

17 events in Sarajevo, so it seems, by asking the XY side. So he is in

18 Kiseljak. He's interested in what's happening in Sarajevo, but I suppose

19 he has other tasks to deal with. Do you have an explanation or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I can understand, in

21 Kiseljak there were refugees from Sarajevo. They had their office in

22 Kiseljak, and probably when these things were happening, those families

23 asked for someone to give them information about what was happening in

24 Sarajevo, what was happening in general. I assume that that would be the

25 only reason for something like that, because that is not in his area of

Page 37782

1 responsibility.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your explanation is that on

3 account of the situation in Sarajevo, the brigade having been disarmed,

4 that could some impact on the refugees going to Kiseljak; is that your

5 explanation?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the refugees were from

7 Sarajevo. They were in Kiseljak, they had their office in Kiseljak, so

8 they could have requested to find out what was going on in Sarajevo, to

9 see what was happening to their family members in Sarajevo. These are

10 refugees from Sarajevo.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this could be an

12 explanation. Thank you.

13 Yes, Mr. Praljak.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour

15 Judge Antonetti, you said that in this document, it says somewhere that

16 Ivica Rajic was asking from the Main Staff to give them information from

17 side XY. It doesn't say anything like that. They already have

18 information from XY and are passing that information to the Main Staff,

19 and are asking for some completely different things from the Main Staff.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you said has now been

21 recorded so that we can understand better.

22 Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

23 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. One more question to this document, Mr. Pinjuh.

25 We have established that it is from Ivica Rajic, that he signed

Page 37787

1 has already issued 661 decisions. You can imagine the work behind it

2 all. We've got some decisions underway. You seized the Trial Chamber

3 constantly. There are not many of us to face this avalanche. There are

4 four Judges and a few assistants, and we are faced by the entire OTP with

5 all their troops, the 12 Defence counsel, plus their assistants and

6 advisors, and people working with them. There are not even 10 of us, and

7 there are at least 50 of you, so you can imagine the amount of work that

8 represents, and we have to be up to the task.

9 So we do our best, in the best available time. We do endeavour

10 to hand down our decisions as quickly as possible, but some time-periods

11 have to be complied with, in terms of responses. We've got to comply

12 with that. But just remember that we have, to date, issued 661

13 decisions. And just a few days ago, we filed a decision on the

14 presidential transcripts. That was really a massive amount of work.

15 So, please, think it over when you file a motion. It has to be

16 useful and necessary, because that's the problem we're faced with.

17 Ms. Nozica, you have scheduled four witnesses for next week.

18 I've looked at it very closely. It would be really desirable -- I've

19 told you that already, but it better be said again. Mr. Cengic for the

20 12th of March, he better be available already on Wednesday, the 11th of

21 March. You never know, even if you scheduled one hour, there could be a

22 procedural issue. So with regard to Mr. Masic, no problem, Monday and

23 Tuesday. We'll start with Mr. Bato on Wednesday, and then if we could

24 finish Wednesday with him, we could start Mr. Sandic [as interpreted]

25 already on Wednesday, and he could go into Thursday. So do your best,

Page 37788

1 your level best.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I am

3 almost sure that next week we will have three witnesses, and I'm going to

4 do my utmost. But you have confused me a little bit. I don't recognize

5 my witnesses by what is written in the transcript, but I know who is

6 supposed to appear next week. No problem, no problem.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ivo Masic, Ahmet Bato, and

8 Cengic.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Cengic. Our names, Bosnian names,

10 are very difficult. I know that. I'm going to try, on Wednesday -- the

11 first witness is coming regularly for the proofing. After that, I'm

12 going to try to have these other two witnesses ready for Wednesday. If

13 we finish with the first one, we can start with the second immediately on

14 Wednesday. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would be ever so

16 grateful.

17 Nothing to say, Mr. Stringer, no question?

18 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps a warning. I'm --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

20 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 I'm just reflecting on your remarks about the number of decisions

22 that the Trial Chamber has issued so far in these proceedings. It's

23 regret -- with regret that I -- I'm just going to alert the Trial Chamber

24 to the high likelihood that the Prosecution will, today or tomorrow

25 morning, file yet another motion with respect to the existing state of

Page 37789

1 witness summaries with the witness scheduled to come on the 16th of

2 March, Mr. Bandic.

3 You've seen, in previous submissions, the correspondence from the

4 Prosecution team to the Stojic team, where we identified a number of

5 remaining witnesses, where we specified precise parts of the summaries

6 for them and asked for further elaboration to know not just about what

7 the witness will say, but to know more about what, in fact, the witness

8 will say. We received somewhat of a supplemental summary for Mr. Bandic.

9 I believe it was last week. We consider that it is not sufficient.

10 The first inclination would be to write another letter to the

11 Stojic Defence to see whether we can work it out, but we're really

12 mindful, especially in light of the decision that we received from the

13 Trial Chamber yesterday in respect of this witness, that the Trial

14 Chamber, and rightly so, is concerned about these sorts of requests

15 coming in late, just before the witness testifies, and the perception

16 that the Prosecution has been dilatory, that it has not brought these

17 issues to the attention of the Trial Chamber sooner.

18 And so rather than engaging in what we -- our concern would be

19 additional fruitless correspondence with the Stojic team and that would

20 only delay our bringing this issue to the attention of the Trial Chamber,

21 we will, today or tomorrow morning, file a submission pointing out

22 specifically what the Prosecution regards as insufficient in respect of

23 the existing summaries we have for Mr. Bandic.

24 So I say that with regret. I know it's difficult for the Trial

25 Chamber to get these.

Page 37790

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if there is a motion, we

2 shall look into it. But would it not be better for you, Ms. Nozica, and

3 Mr. Khan, to get together around a cup of coffee and for you to tackle

4 the issue altogether in order to settle it? Because look, what's going

5 to happen, you're going to file a motion, you're going to have a response

6 by the Defence, but if you could sort it out together, that would be

7 really much better.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wish to say that

9 I'm very sorry that my learned friend thinks that it's a fruitless or

10 futile correspondence. We do react. I have information that additional

11 summaries have been made for five witnesses, and I would like to ask for

12 a little patience from my learned friend, if he hasn't received it, I

13 mean, it's already been sent, and if it hasn't been sent, it will be sent

14 today or tomorrow, at the latest, and I believe that he will get all the

15 answers today or tomorrow morning, at the latest.

16 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I do apologise.

17 It is correct, I believe, that we have responded to all

18 correspondence that's been addressed to us by the Prosecution. I do

19 agree with my learned friend, Mr. Stringer, that this state of affairs is

20 most regrettable. We have said on numerous occasions it was completely

21 avoidable, given that we have filed our 65 summaries months ago in March

22 of 2008. But on the eve of testimony to constantly barrage a Defence

23 team with motions of this sort is nothing short than destabilising and

24 disorientating, given that we have many other matters to deal with. We

25 are forward-looking, and to constantly have to cope with the huge

Page 37791

1 resource of the Prosecution on these - what I am forced to submit now -

2 are on some occasions, at least, approaching vexatious, and even

3 frivolous motions, is a matter of the utmost regret.

4 Your Honours, I do invite my learned friend to address any other

5 correspondence he wishes to us, and as the state of the record discloses,

6 we will try, in good faith, to respond. But sometimes one party or the

7 other - it may apply to both the Prosecution and Defence - want more and

8 more and more. Now, this does not make it correct or make it

9 meritorious.

10 Your Honours, I do give my learned friend now notice that once I

11 receive his hopefully informal correspondence, I intend to -- or we

12 intend to file, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, an order -- or an application or

13 motion to the Trial Chamber which will be similar in scope to a

14 prerogative order of prohibition, to prohibit the Prosecution to file

15 motions of this nature, and this is -- this will be predicated upon a

16 previous submission of Mr. Stojic that a waiver has taken place because

17 the Prosecution did not do, in a timely fashion, that which they were

18 expected to do, and to raise these issues at a pre-trial conference.

19 They should now be estopped and prevented, by an order of

20 prohibition, to file these motions at the very last opportunity, because

21 to put it bluntly, it makes it almost impossible for a small Defence team

22 to respond and prepare for trial in the days and weeks ahead.

23 Now, Your Honours, we are, and it's a matter for my learned

24 friend, if he wishes to, on this issue accept, there has been, I believe,

25 a genuine effort on the part of the Stojic team to respond to inquiries

Page 37792

1 made by the Prosecution, and I'd invite him to do that. And on previous

2 occasions I have said, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, that unilaterally,

3 irrespective of any motions, we are trying to supplement and give further

4 information when we have it, and I think we have -- we have done that, in

5 part. We have given summaries even of witnesses that the Prosecution

6 have not requested additional information.

7 So, Your Honour, all these matters can be decided in due course.

8 It is a matter of regret, but as the issue has been raised by my learned

9 friend, Mr. Stringer, quite properly, I do give the Trial Chamber notice

10 of our intention, once we've seen his correspondence either by way of a

11 bilateral correspondence out of court or by way of a formal motion, the

12 choice of course being his and that of the Prosecutor. It is our

13 intention to file a motion seeking a prohibition of the Prosecution to

14 engage in motions which they, no doubt very sincerely, very sincerely,

15 believe are with merit, but we say are completely without merit, are

16 untimely, and have the effect of destabilising a small Defence team

17 funded by legal aid, with the limitation of resources that that brings,

18 to the extent that it is affecting the ability of the Stojic team to

19 properly and diligently present a defence case, because it is constantly

20 seeking to put out fires presented by the Prosecution or lit by the

21 Prosecution on eve of testimony.

22 This state of affairs, I emphasise as robustly as I can, was

23 completely preventable if the Prosecution had, in a timely fashion,

24 raised objections since March 2008, and to do so now is causing us very

25 severe prejudice.

Page 37793

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer -- I shall give

2 you the floor, Ms. Alaburic.

3 Mr. Stringer, when I addressed the issue of the 661 decisions a

4 while ago, I didn't think you were going to bring this problem up again.

5 A few weeks ago, I told you, Mr. Stringer, and I told Mr. Scott

6 that you needed, right away, to look at the summary list of the 65 ter

7 witnesses, the upcoming witnesses, and say, Well, for this witness, I

8 don't agree with this and that and that, and that is missing, to avoid

9 this kind of situation arising. You're all professionals, you're all

10 excellent professionals. The Trial Chamber then has to rule on these

11 matters, and this would not occur if you were able to talk to each other,

12 whether it's the Defence or whether it's the OTP. We understand full

13 well. Nonetheless, you're all lawyers, and you should have the interests

14 of justice at heart.

15 Things have to move ahead quickly and efficiently, and we

16 shouldn't waste our time. Rather than filing written motions, the best

17 would be to discuss it among yourselves and only seize the Trial Chamber

18 when you cannot find a solution.

19 In this particular case, it seems, Mr. Stringer, that you have

20 been too quick to respond. From what I understood, I may be mistaken,

21 but Ms. Nozica has already prepared her replies, which she was going to

22 put to us or give us tomorrow morning. I always listen to Mr. Khan very

23 carefully, like I do every time Mr. Khan takes the floor. The OTP should

24 not destabilise the Defence teams automatically. I don't know whether

25 this is the case. This is what Mr. Khan believes, anyway.

Page 37794

1 You have completed your case, the Prosecution case. It's now up

2 to the Defence, with their limited means, to call their witnesses. There

3 are three lawyers and three assistants perhaps, so it's a very small

4 team. And if you swamp them with motions all the time, they won't be

5 able to manage all of this. This you should understand. And we have to

6 guarantee the fairness of the trial and the equality of arms.

7 So let's wait and see what Ms. Nozica has to say, but only seize

8 the Trial Chamber if you can't do otherwise.

9 MR. STRINGER: If I could offer just a few brief remarks in

10 reply, Mr. President.

11 We took the Trial Chamber's admonition to heart last month when

12 it directed the Prosecution to go back over the summaries. We wrote a

13 long letter to the Defence, and we sent it to them on the 3rd of

14 February. A copy of the letter was provided to the Trial Chamber's legal

15 officer. Here we are now, more than a month later. We've got a little

16 bit of supplemental information in about Mr. Bandic, but in our view it's

17 not sufficient. We waited until we received the Stojic Defence team's

18 exhibit list yesterday, one day late, in order to try to factor that in.

19 We still believe that the information provided does not put us in the

20 position we're entitled to be, in terms of knowing, not verbatim, but in

21 general what the witness is going to say about a number of very important

22 issues, particularly the SIS investigation at Stupni Do. We don't know

23 what he's going to say, and that information still has not come across to

24 us.

25 Here we are, a month later. The Defence now are saying that

Page 37795

1 we're late. Well, if we're late, it's because we've been waiting, and

2 we've been dealing, through correspondence, with them, and yet we're

3 still not in the position that we believe we ought to be.

4 In light of Mr. Khan's remarks about their seeking to prohibit

5 the Prosecution from filing motions, I don't know that we can work this

6 out with the Stojic Defence team, and I regret to say that I think that

7 it will be up to the Trial Chamber to have to resolve all these issues.

8 I'm happy to meet with Mr. Khan, or Ms. Nozica, or any member of

9 their team over coffee, but that's not going to give us the summary that

10 we have to have in the courtroom, in the event the witness goes beyond

11 the scope of a summary. It doesn't -- that sort of informal chat just

12 doesn't put us in the place that we need to be when the witness is in the

13 box and we are getting ready for a cross-examination or we are listening

14 to a direct examination. And so I'm happy to meet with them and to raise

15 these issues personally with them, but in light of the remarks made,

16 we're certainly not doing this to destabilise anybody. We're just trying

17 to be prepared, and that's all. And in our view, we're not prepared,

18 still, in respect of Mr. Bandic, even though this was raised with the

19 Defence team for Mr. Stojic over a month ago in the correspondence we

20 sent to them.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, I'm always delighted to spend any time

23 in the company of my learned friend --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, we will have to stop.

25 I shall be in this courtroom in a few minutes' time, so we only have a

Page 37796

1 few minutes left.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Khan.

3 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, I'm most grateful.

4 I would be more than delighted to take my learned friend up on

5 his offer to sit down over a coffee and to discuss these issues with him,

6 even if he's willing to accept, and I'm happy to pay for the coffee, but,

7 Your Honours, we have responded in a timely fashion. To the best of my

8 knowledge, the correspondence referred to by my learned friend was

9 responded to by the Stojic Defence team on the 10th and on the 13th, so

10 that the information given has been provided. That's the first point.

11 The second point, Your Honour, is this: that my learned friend

12 states that in the event of testimony going beyond the 65 ter summary,

13 there is prejudice. Well, that is rather anticipatory. What I would

14 rather invite Your Honours to consider is this: We have sought to

15 endeavour to comply with our obligations under 65 ter. We have sought to

16 supplement, wherever we can, both when the Prosecution have asked for

17 more information and since this issue became a rather heated issue

18 between the parties, we've looked at matters again and are working on

19 these issues, but, Your Honour, what I would ask is that perhaps

20 witnesses can come without what we say are needless motions by the

21 Prosecution. After the examination-in-chief is concluded, if the

22 Prosecution can establish or persuade Your Honours that they are really

23 prejudiced by a matter that they were not aware of and they were not

24 familiar of -- familiar with, at that point Your Honours can grant some

25 time for an adjournment for them to be prepared. Your Honours, that's a

Page 37797

1 very fair way of doing it.

2 But, Your Honours, to keep flooding us with an incessant barrage

3 of motions is destabilising. I'm saying this is a tactical device on

4 behalf of my learned friend, Mr. Stringer. I know him too well to say

5 that he would descend to such tactics. I'm sure that it's based upon a

6 sincere belief that they are entitled to more and more, and of course

7 they want statements in reality. But, Your Honours, if there is a

8 modicum of merit -- a degree of merit in what the Prosecution say, that

9 mischief or that prejudice could be surely remedied by the Defence after

10 the witness has been heard, being given a few moments of time, depending

11 upon what the issue is, to prepare, prior to conducting their

12 cross-examination. Your Honour, that's the way of dealing with it in a

13 fair and proper manner.

14 Your Honour, the final remark is this: Your Honour has heard

15 today that the witness that has concluded his evidence. It may perhaps

16 be pertinent to note that the Prosecution filed several motions in

17 relation to this witness, and in these motions the Prosecution's constant

18 averment was that this witness was not relevant. And, Your Honour, all

19 those motions, of course, we have to respond to.

20 Now, Your Honours, you have heard the evidence today, and of

21 course it's for Your Honours to decide if that evidence was relevant or

22 is a complete waste of the Court's time, but the simple point is: Be

23 that as it may, when a motion is filed by the machinery of the Office of

24 the Prosecution, the small wheel that is available the Defence must move

25 at a frenetic pace in order to respond and protect, to the best of our

Page 37798

1 abilities, Mr. Stojic's rights to a fair trial.

2 Your Honour, those are my remarks. I'm very happy to speak to

3 Mr. Stringer on this issue. We're very happy to try to give as much

4 information as we have, consistent with our obligations under the Rules

5 of Procedure and Evidence of this Court.

6 And the final remark is: Any prejudice suffered can be remedied

7 without a constant barrage of motions by some time being given once Your

8 Honours have seen whether or not prejudice is occasioned to a party in

9 reality, as opposed to this theoretical spectre that is constantly being

10 raised by, in my respectful submission, my learned friends from the

11 Prosecution.

12 Your Honours, those are my remarks on this issue. I hope they

13 assist.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, we know that your

15 client wished to be here when Mr. Bandic is coming. That is all right,

16 is it; your client will be here in two weeks' time?

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my client will be

18 here precisely pursuant to your decision. He arrives on Sunday, so my

19 client will be here when Mr. Ivan Bandic is examined, and everybody in

20 this courtroom knows full well that we're very interested in hearing --

21 in having my client, General Petkovic, hear the testimony of this

22 witness.

23 And since Mr. Stringer raised the question, I'd like to inform

24 the Trial Chamber of the following fact: Yesterday, we received a list

25 of exhibits which the Defence of Bruno Stojic intends to present to

Page 37799

1 Mr. Bandic and discuss the documents with Mr. Bandic. However, among

2 those documents there are certain orders signed by my client and certain

3 documents sent to my client, and from this we can conclude, without any

4 doubt, that Mr. Bandic will be mentioning General Petkovic and talking

5 about him, and I'd like to tell the Stojic Defence today that we would

6 like to have information about the facts that the witness will be

7 discussing and presenting relating to General Petkovic and the Main Staff

8 in the portion which relates to General Petkovic. And I do believe that

9 we'll be able to agree on these points with the Bruno Stojic Defence.

10 We know the difficulties that face them. We don't want to exert

11 any pressure on them, and it will be sufficient for us to receive the

12 information in the course of the proofing session of Mr. Bandic. And if

13 we receive them 24 hours prior to the examination-in-chief of the

14 witness, we will be ready to start our cross-examination straight away.

15 But if we don't receive that information, then we might need to ask that

16 the proceedings be deferred, a stay in the proceedings, until we're able

17 to prepare.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have just heard

20 what Ms. Alaburic has said. You must avoid adjourning and asking the

21 witnesses to come later. If Ms. Alaburic says she doesn't have enough

22 information to conduct her cross-examination, this could be an issue, so

23 please settle this among yourselves.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really will try and

25 do the best I can. I have some technical problems, but we will respond

Page 37800

1 to Ms. Alaburic's request. And if -- when it comes to time, now, when I

2 have a proofing session, whether I can provide all the information

3 prior -- 24 hours prior to his coming into court, I don't know. Well,

4 they can recall the witness for the cross-examination. But as I say, I

5 will do my best to comply.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I don't know how

8 you prepare to hear your witnesses. The easiest would have been to ask

9 the upcoming witness to provide you with a short summary of the items he

10 or she wishes to discuss in light of the position he or she held at the

11 time, so then you have a good work tool. If you wait for the last

12 minute, then you will have a problem. So that's for you to do, that's

13 your problem.

14 I'm sorry to say that the Rules in this case did not enable the

15 Bench to handle this energetically before the trial started.

16 Unfortunately, all these problems are due to this. If all of this had

17 been settled beforehand, we would have gained a lot of time.

18 Unfortunately, this is not the case.

19 It's now time to stop. I thought we would have stopped earlier,

20 but we finish at the usual time.

21 We shall meet again on Monday at a quarter past 2.00.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of March,

24 2009, at 2.15 p.m.