090309ED

Page 37807

1 questions, because they're not perfect, they don't know everything, and

2 sometimes they're not able to express their questions properly. So do

3 not hesitate to ask the Judges to reformulate their questions.

4 If at any time you're not feeling well, just raise your hand and

5 we'll have a break immediately so that you can have a rest.

6 So all this for the testimony to take place as smoothly as

7 possible, in the interests of the Accused Stojic, who's calling you, and

8 also in the interests of justice.

9 You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Ms. Nozica:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Majic.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I'm going to go through your CV now, but I'd like to start off by

15 asking you whether, in the official documents, you used your nickname,

16 "Tiho."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Very well, fine. Now, I'm going to go briefly through your CV,

19 and you can tell us at the end whether what I've read out is correct, so

20 that we can move forward.

21 The Secondary School of Construction is one you graduated from in

22 1976 in Vukovar; is that right? And you had a construction company of

23 your own from 1980 to 1990 in Grude. At the end of 1991, you were

24 appointed to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality, and you worked there

25 procuring materiel and technical equipment. When the Main Staff was

Page 37808

1 established, and that was roughly in April 1992, the warehouse and depot

2 formed part of the Main Staff, and you continued working as a warehouse

3 operator. In May 1993, this warehouse or, rather, the logistical base,

4 the Central Logistics Base, as it was called, became part of the

5 Procurement Sector, and under the Defence Department. You continued

6 working in the Logistics Base as a warehouse-keeper. In May 1993, you

7 were appointed to another duty, the deputy assistant of the head of the

8 Defence Department, in the Procurement Sector -- Procurement and

9 Production Sector. And from May 1993, that same date, until 1997, you

10 mostly worked in -- on jobs concerning construction. In 1997, you

11 retired.

12 Is all that information correct, Mr. Majic?

13 A. Yes, all the information is correct.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, can you tell the Trial Chamber who and when

15 appointed you to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality?

16 A. I was appointed by the Municipal Council. I was appointed by

17 them to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality.

18 Q. And can you tell us when that was?

19 A. 1991, towards the end of the year.

20 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why the Crisis Staff was set

21 up in the first place?

22 A. When the Serb Army attacked the municipality of Ravno and

23 deployed their tanks in Kupres municipality, everything that went on in

24 the Republic of -- and in view of everything that went on in the

25 Republic of Croatia, the Crisis Staff was set up in Grude municipality

Page 37809

1 for defence purposes, to defend us from the Serbs.

2 Q. Were you given any assignments in that Crisis Staff?

3 A. In the Crisis Staff, my assignments were to procure and store

4 materiel and technical equipment.

5 Q. Did the Grude municipality have any weaponry which could be used

6 had an attack by the Serb Army taken place?

7 A. At that time, the Territorial Defence of Grude municipality had

8 its own weapons, but prior to the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina those

9 weapons were seized by the JNA, which meant that we did not have any

10 weapons.

11 Q. If I've understood you correctly, when you were appointed to the

12 Crisis Staff, when it was established at the end of 1991, that same

13 Crisis Staff had no weaponry.

14 A. That is right, it did not have any weaponry.

15 Q. Now, tell us, please, what was your first task when you joined

16 the Crisis Staff? What did you do first upon your appointment?

17 A. When I was appointed, the first thing we did was to make a list

18 of all the hunting weapons in Grude municipality; that is to say, we

19 called up -- we called upon the citizens to report their weapons so that

20 we could make a record of them, and we made some devices like Molotov

21 cocktails and so on to be able to deal with the enemy, and then we

22 started to purchase automatic rifles as well.

23 Q. How did you purchase the automatic weapons, and did you? Did you

24 and how?

25 A. At the level of the municipality, we would call upon all the

Page 37810

1 citizens who wished to purchase weapons and who had the money to purchase

2 weapons and could do so, and we collected about 120.000 German marks in

3 that first stage, and the president of the Executive Council went and

4 procured the weapons. And when the weapons arrived, they were stored in

5 my warehouse. And as soon as I received a list of persons who had

6 purchased the weapons, I distributed them.

7 Q. You say the weapons came to the warehouse. Did you have a

8 warehouse, and if so, which warehouse or depot? And we're still talking

9 about that first stage when you were in the Crisis Staff of Grude

10 municipality; right?

11 A. Yes. My warehouse was at the tobacco station, which is located

12 in the centre of town, the centre of Grude, and after the Serbs left, we

13 moved that warehouse to the Drinovci area, and that was from mid-April

14 1992.

15 Q. You say that you relocated to Drinovci. Where in Drinovci?

16 A. In a forest there. It's called "the forest," "suma," and there

17 was a road there, and we hitched up some trailers where we stored goods

18 that were not supposed to get wet. We kept them dry in those trailers

19 and trucks.

20 Q. You said the so-called "forest." Was it really a forest or was

21 it just called a forest?

22 A. Well, yes, it was out in the open, a real proper forest.

23 Q. Now, why did you relocate the warehouse to this forest out in the

24 open?

25 A. We moved the warehouse to prevent the Serbs from shelling us, as

Page 37811

1 they had done the previous one, so we thought that this would be a

2 provisional, temporary measure.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the issue of dates is

4 absolutely essential for the Judges. As I understand it, when the Serbs

5 attacked, the Grude Crisis Staff decided to get armed, and you played a

6 part in it. If I understand properly, this was during 1991, early 1992;

7 is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At some point in

10 time, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised

11 internationally by the international community. You know that, don't

12 you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did know that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You knew that. When the

15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had legal existence, did the

16 Grude Crisis Staff call the government led by Mr. Izetbegovic in order to

17 say, Look, the Serbs are attacking us. We need weapons. You must send

18 us troops, weapons, food, et cetera? Was that done or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was just a

20 warehouse-keeper, so in my job description, that wouldn't have been part

21 of it, so I didn't feel the need to do that. That wasn't my job.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean you can't answer

23 my question?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, I really don't

25 know.

Page 37812

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Very well, thank you.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Majic, in response to my question of why the warehouse was

4 relocated to the forest, you said, among other things, that you didn't

5 think it would last long. What did you have in mind? What wouldn't last

6 long?

7 A. The war, that the war wouldn't last long.

8 Q. All right. Now, tell me, please, how long did the warehouse stay

9 in the forest, up until when?

10 A. To the best of my recollections, it remained there until

11 September 1993.

12 Q. And when did you work in the warehouse?

13 A. I worked in the warehouse until mid-May 1993.

14 Q. Now, during the time the Crisis Staff was established for Grude

15 municipality, did you have any contact whatsoever with the other crisis

16 staffs in the other municipalities with respect to weapons procurement,

17 agreement about how to procure weapons, and things of that kind?

18 A. Until the beginning of 1992, we did not have any contacts between

19 the municipalities, none at all.

20 Q. And what happened at the beginning of 1992 to change that?

21 A. In 1992, the Inter-Municipality Crisis Staff was established, and

22 my warehouse became part of the regional warehouse.

23 Q. If I understand you correctly, that became the regional -- it

24 became the regional warehouse.

25 A. Yes.

Page 37813

1 Q. And were you still the warehouse-keeper in that same warehouse?

2 A. Yes, I continued to be the warehouse-keeper.

3 Q. Mr. Majic, what happened in April 1992 with that warehouse of

4 yours?

5 A. In April 1992, the Main Staff was established, and then my

6 warehouse became part of the Logistics Base of the Main Staff, but I

7 continued to do my job and work as a warehouse-keeper.

8 Q. Mr. Majic, after the beginning of the conflict with the Serbs on

9 the territory of HZ-HB, did you receive in your warehouse any --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you kept working

11 at your job of store-keeper, so does that mean that you were just doing

12 manual work, or you would take a rifle from one room to take it to

13 another room, or you give it to somebody, or does that mean that you had

14 more intellectual work, where you have to manage the entire logistics?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just receive the goods and

16 issue the goods, according to decisions and lists. That was my job,

17 basically.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Majic, after the beginning of the conflict with the Serbs on

21 the territory of HZ-HB, did you receive any materiel and technical

22 equipment or weapons from some other source?

23 A. When the HVO repelled the Serbs or, rather, when we took control

24 of some of the barracks that had been held by the Serbs, then I received

25 quite a lot of materiel and technical equipment, which I stored and then,

Page 37814

1 according to orders, issued.

2 Q. Do I understand you to say that the weapons came from the

3 barracks?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It was weapons that were there after the Serbs had left the

6 barracks. Did I understand you correctly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right, fine. Now, who was your superior officer, Mr. Majic,

9 after the warehouse in April, as you said, of 1992 moved to the

10 Main Staff?

11 A. My superior from mid-1992, until July, was Mr. Bruno Stojic, who

12 was the assistant commander for logistics in the Main Staff.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, everything is going

14 very fast. You've just said something. When the JNA left, you said, you

15 somehow managed the weapons they'd left behind.

16 We've heard a lot of witnesses so far, and I was under the

17 understanding that when the JNA left their barracks, they took everything

18 with them, there was no weapon left. And now -- I've been in this

19 Tribunal for nearly six years, and this is the first time I hear what

20 you've just said; namely, that the JNA left weapons behind. So I'm

21 trying to understand.

22 Are you sure that the JNA left weapons behind?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's like this: The

24 JNA didn't leave of its own free will, of its own accord, voluntarily.

25 There was an offensive, and I do think that part of the materiel and

Page 37815

1 technical equipment remained, stayed behind.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now we can

3 understand. Thank you.

4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Majic, let's clarify that. When did this, as you called it,

6 offensive take place? When did the conflict between the HVO and BH Army

7 take place? Can we clarify that?

8 A. No, not the BH Army, no.

9 Q. I do apologise. It's my mistake. Not the BH Army, but the HVO

10 and the JNA.

11 A. That happened in April, when we took control, as we were told --

12 1992, that is, yes.

13 Q. April 1992. What about the TO weapons that was in storage units

14 belonging to the TO? What about when that was seized from all the

15 municipal TOs by the JNA? When did that occur?

16 A. That occurred prior to the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

17 meaning early 1991.

18 Q. Mr. Majic, these are two different things; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the one hand, the TO weapons being taken from TO storage units

21 or warehouses, and, on the other, weapons being seized after the HVO set

22 free or liberated the barracks previously held by the JNA; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. A while ago, you replied by saying that between mid-1992 and

25 July 1992, Bruno Stojic was your superior. He was assistant commander

Page 37816

1 for logistics in the Main Staff. Do you perhaps remember whether that

2 was in mid-1992 or could you more specific than that and remember the

3 actual month?

4 A. It was between April and the beginning of July.

5 Q. Fine. Then who became your superior after July 1992?

6 A. After July, Mr. Bruno Stojic was replaced by Mr. Ante Jelavic as

7 assistant commander for logistics in the Main Staff.

8 Q. For how long did Mr. Jelavic continue to be your superior in that

9 warehouse?

10 A. He remained as my superior up until mid-May 1993.

11 Q. Fine. And what happens then, mid-May 1993? What happened to the

12 warehouse?

13 A. The warehouse became part of the Procurement and Production

14 Sector, which itself was attached to the Defence Department.

15 Q. Did you change jobs in mid-May? Were you appointed to a

16 different position?

17 A. I was appointed assistant head for procurement and production

18 with the Defence Department.

19 Q. Deputy assistant with the Procurement and Production Sector?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who was appointed assistant head?

22 A. Mr. Ante Jelavic.

23 Q. Mr. Majic, following mid-May 1993, following your appointment as

24 deputy assistant head of the Procurement and Production Sector, what did

25 your work comprise?

Page 37817

1 A. I was working more with the Construction Administration.

2 Q. So following May 1993, did you have any more contacts or anything

3 to do with the warehouse?

4 A. No, none whatsoever.

5 Q. Mr. Majic, can you now please explain to the Chamber if you knew

6 how materiel and technical equipment was procured. At first when you

7 were with the Crisis Staff as well as later when the warehouse became a

8 regional warehouse and eventually became the Logistics Base and, as such,

9 part of the Main Staff, did you know anything about how MTS, materiel and

10 technical equipment, was actually procured?

11 A. During the first stage of this operation, early 1992, I did know

12 how this was done. We bought all the equipment with our own money, and

13 the equipment was sourced from a number of different countries. I

14 remember that first stage, when we got some equipment from Slovenia.

15 Q. What about later on, when the warehouse became a regional one,

16 the central warehouse? Do you know how procurement worked at that point?

17 A. No. After this, I no longer knew anything about how weapons were

18 procured.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may. Witness, just a small question. You

20 said, "We bought with our own money." Whose money would that have been?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The money of the citizens of Grude

22 municipality.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Majic, what about municipal crisis staffs or HVO municipal

Page 37818

1 crisis staffs, which is what they later became; did they get materiel and

2 technical equipment directly for HVO units in their own area?

3 A. Each staff got equipment for the units and for the crisis staffs

4 separately.

5 Q. What about this materiel and technical equipment; were any

6 documents produced about that or did it go straight to your warehouse?

7 A. I didn't know anything about materiel and technical equipment at

8 the time.

9 Q. You first worked as a warehouse-keeper with the Municipal

10 Crisis Staff and later with the Logistics Base. Were there any

11 warehouses in HVO units at the time?

12 A. Yes, each unit had its own warehouse. Rather, recruitment

13 districts had assistance -- assistant commanders for logistics.

14 Q. You mentioned recruitment districts or areas, so would that apply

15 to brigades and all the rest; right?

16 A. Yes, the brigades --

17 Q. Mr. Majic, in order to avoid this problem, can you please wait

18 until I finish asking my question before you start your answer.

19 You said recruitment districts or areas. What about the other

20 brigades, battalions and companies, well, to the extent that you can

21 tell?

22 A. Yes, I know all the units had their own warehouses.

23 Q. Did they all have assistant commanders for logistics?

24 A. That is understood.

25 Q. Mr. Majic, can you explain to the Trial Chamber how you

Page 37819

1 distributed MTS or materiel and technical equipment?

2 A. I would get a distribution order from my own superior, and then I

3 would act upon it.

4 Q. Were you the only one with the power to have MTS distributed, the

5 only one in that warehouse?

6 A. I had a deputy too.

7 Q. Can you tell us his name?

8 A. Marinko Crnogorac.

9 Q. Were you still the one who was really in charge of the warehouse?

10 A. Yes, I was the one in charge.

11 Q. Mr. Majic, were there ever any requests for MTS by the Army of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes. There were three different ways in which this happened.

14 The BH Army would send a request directly to municipal staffs. If

15 municipal staffs didn't have all the equipment, they would go to our

16 central warehouse to get more supplies. Then there were situations in

17 which they would address a certain warehouse directly -- or, rather,

18 there would be a distribution order dispatched to this warehouse. They

19 would then go to this warehouse, having seen my superior first. And the

20 third way was from MORH, to have equipment delivered to my warehouse, and

21 the distribution order would say that the equipment was meant for the

22 BH Army.

23 Q. What about this third channel or the third way? When the MTS

24 would arrive at your warehouse from MORH, is this the Ministry of Defence

25 of the Republic of Croatia?

Page 37820

1 A. Yes, the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia.

2 Q. You say the distribution order would then clearly state that this

3 was equipment for the BH Army; is my understanding correct?

4 A. Yes, it is. That's how it was.

5 Q. Mr. Majic, how long did your warehouse continue to issue MTS,

6 weapons and other such items, for the purposes of the BH Army?

7 A. For as long as I remained in my position as warehouse-keeper, so

8 until mid-May; that is, at least as far as I can tell you.

9 Q. Can you just tell me the year again?

10 A. 1993.

11 Q. I'll try to ask you a specific question, if you can remember

12 that. Can you remember anyone from the special MUP unit coming over --

13 the BH special MUP unit from Sarajevo, to pick up MTS?

14 A. Yes, I remember this one situation. It struck me as slightly

15 strange. Sarajevo was surrounded at the time, and yet someone from

16 Sarajevo was now here to pick up MTS. That was mid-February 1993.

17 Q. Mr. Majic, can you perhaps remember if anyone came from the

18 2nd Corps of the BH Army to pick up MTS?

19 A. People from the 2nd Corps came several times, but what I remember

20 is when they came in early May and picked up quite a considerable amount

21 of MTS.

22 Q. You say "early May." Which year?

23 A. 1993.

24 Q. Mr. Majic, how exactly did you technically issue MTS to members

25 of the BH Army? Was there a different procedure that was in place, as

Page 37821

1 opposed to the one used when you were issuing MTS to HVO units?

2 A. There was no difference, in terms of procedure. We used the same

3 procedure for both. They would dispatch a request to my superior. My

4 superior would then issue me with a distribution order, and then I would

5 execute the order.

6 Q. Mr. Majic, I'll first ask the usher's assistance.

7 We need our binder of documents to be handed to the witness. We

8 shall now be going through a number of documents in relation to what we

9 have been discussing.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

11 Witness, before we look at the documents, you said something

12 which awakened my interest. You said that you had been extremely

13 surprised to see somebody from the MUP arrive in mid-February of 1993

14 concerning MTS. That person had walked away with some equipment. I

15 understand why you were surprised. Had you heard of those events which

16 had taken place in Prozor in October 1992?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I did not mention any

18 event in Prozor myself. But another reason I was surprised is because

19 they came from Sarajevo, and Sarajevo at the time was surrounded by the

20 Serbs, and that's why I was surprised.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When this person came in

22 February 1993, as far as you know, had there been a conflict between the

23 ABiH and the HVO by then?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, so there had been clashes.

Page 37822

1 How can you explain that the "enemy," in inverted commas, is being

2 procured by you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't consider the BH Army to

4 be a real enemy, or at least I didn't. It was a series of unfortunate

5 coincidences. There was a group of people, and this was something that

6 went back to the former Yugoslavia, who were always into causing

7 accidents, trying to get more convenience for themselves and less

8 convenience for everyone else.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you were concerned,

10 it was a clique or small group of people from the former Yugoslavia who

11 were behind the clashes between the HVO and the ABiH; is that right?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, they had their own

13 agents that they were infiltrating, their mission being to bring about

14 clashes between the Croats and the Bosniaks.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when the person from the MUP

16 comes, you did not consider this person to be an enemy. Was this person

17 a friend or was he a fighter like you? Who was this person?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were other warehouse-keepers

19 in charge of MTS from those units.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you did not answer my

21 question. Those people who come and pick up the equipment for the ABiH,

22 as far as you were concerned, were these brothers-in-arms, were these

23 friends, were these people like you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their insignia told me that they

25 were members of the BH Army.

Page 37823

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Majic, if we could please try to shed some light on this.

4 The Presiding Judge asked you several times whether, when those people

5 came from the 2nd Corps and the special MUP units in Sarajevo, whether

6 you consider them as enemies. Who were they fighting, both when they

7 were with the 2nd Corps and in Sarajevo? Can you explain that?

8 A. I personally did not consider them to be my enemies.

9 Q. Fine. Let us move on to the documents that I have here.

10 Can we please first go to P586. It's the first document in your

11 binder.

12 Mr. Majic, this is a decision on the basic structure of the

13 Defence Department, dated September 1992, signed by Mr. Mate Boban. Let

14 me first ask you if before you were proofed for this case you'd ever set

15 eyes on this document.

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Let's take a look at point 8, and we're going to look at the

18 place of this central warehouse, where it is in establishment terms. So

19 take a look at point 8. You said that as of May 1993, you were the

20 deputy assistant to the head in the Sector for Procurement and

21 Production, and here we see in point 8 on page 2 a list of eight

22 administrations within that same sector in September 1992.

23 Now, did your logistical base belong to one of these

24 administrations, and did it belong to the sector at all?

25 A. My logistical base did not belong here, did not come under this

Page 37824

1 sector.

2 Q. All right. Now let's look at document 2D, the next document,

3 00567. 2D00567 is the number, and that should be the next document in

4 your binder. And this is a decision on the internal organisation of the

5 Defence Department, dated the 10th of July, 1992. And on page 4, look at

6 the Sector for Procurement and Production, and the date is the 17th of

7 October. It's the 17th of October, 1992. That's how the transcript

8 should read.

9 Now, we have the structure of the sector here, and within that

10 structure, in October, was there a logistics base in any of these

11 administrations?

12 A. No, there's no logistics base.

13 Q. All right. Now let's look at another document on establishment

14 and organisation. It is P2477, and this is a decision on the internal

15 organisation of the Defence Department, dated the 20th of May, 1993. And

16 I'd like to ask you to take a look at page 3 once again, point 7, in

17 which we have a breakdown of the administrations and everything that made

18 up the Sector for Procurement and Production within the Defence

19 Department.

20 Now, Mr. Majic, on page 4, do we see the appearance for the first

21 time here, the head of the Central Logistics Base, and does that coincide

22 with what you know, that as of May 1993, this Logistics Base became part

23 of the Procurement and Production Sector of the Defence Department?

24 A. Yes, that is what I know.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, look at the next document, please, which is

Page 37825

1 2D01024, and just tell me when you've found it.

2 A. Yes, I've found it.

3 Q. All right, fine. This is a pass dated the 30th of June, 1992,

4 signed by Mr. Bruno Stojic, and I'd like to ask you now, Mr. Majic,

5 whether Mr. Bruno Stojic during this period was your superior, and tell

6 Their Honours, please, which post he held or what the title of his

7 position was, and we can see that from this document.

8 A. At the time, he was my superior. He was the assistant commander

9 for logistics.

10 Q. We're talking about the 30th of June, 1992, so it would be a good

11 idea to repeat what we've already said. Who was your superior as of

12 July 1992?

13 A. My superior was Mr. Ante Jelavic.

14 Q. All right, thank you. Now, let's look at the next document,

15 which is 2D01 --

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, it might be useful to have in the

17 record [indiscernible] as I'm saying it, that will be it, that the

18 previous document had the number 2D01024.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. 2D01 --

20 you're right, 2D01024. I saw the number and thought it was the right

21 one, but thank you for putting me right.

22 Q. So would you take a look at the document, once again, 2D01253

23 this time, and tell me when you've found it.

24 A. I've found it.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, just briefly, here we have nine receipts making

Page 37826

1 up this document, and two entries for goods coming in; receipts for the

2 26th of February, 1992, and go up to the 30th of March, 1993. And this

3 first receipt, number 1/7 -- 117, we see your signature there, and we see

4 on the right who took over the MTS, the materiel and technical equipment.

5 Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what this document represents?

6 What is it?

7 A. Your Honours, this is a document which indicates how the Ministry

8 of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina purchased weapons in Slovenia and

9 shipped them to the Drinovci warehouse and then -- well, Grude

10 municipality, and then pursuant to an agreement with the minister,

11 Mr. Delimustafic, and Mr. Stojic, that weaponry was distributed.

12 Q. Mr. Majic, so we're talking about the 26th of February, 1992,

13 there, and we're referring to the Ministry of the Interior of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, do you happen to know Mr. Bahto Hamid?

17 A. I know him personally.

18 Q. All right, fine. Yes, Bahto Hamid. Now, after this receipt

19 number 117, we have a series of other receipts. I'd just like you to

20 confirm, if you can, to the Trial Chamber that all these nine receipts

21 tell us which people were concerned with this and that they were all

22 Bosniak Muslim names.

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Now, would you explain something to the Trial Chamber, and in

25 order to do that, look at the penultimate page of the document. In

Page 37827

1 English, it is 2D75-0087 and 0088; and in the Croatian, it is 2D71-0331

2 and 0332.

3 Now, Mr. Majic, here we have goods entered and we can see that it

4 came from the MUP of Slovenia, goods received from and received by

5 Mr. Tihomir Majic, but we see the date is the 7th of April, 1992. Now,

6 from the previous receipts, we can see all this MTS, materiel and

7 technical equipment, was distributed from the 26th of February up until

8 the 30th of March, 1993 [as interpreted], and could you explain to the

9 Trial Chamber how come that the entry of goods was entered only on the

10 7th of April, 1992, was recorded then?

11 A. The standard practice for the first stage was this: I would

12 be -- I would be given a copy of the outgoing document, and then later on

13 I would record it.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I want to make a correction.

15 Page 27, line 2, should read "March 1992" and not "1993."

16 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, if I understood you correctly, you received a

17 copy with the goods, a receipt saying that the goods had been sent. You

18 would be given a copy, and only once you received the original would you

19 enter the goods into the document; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, I'd like to move on to another set of documents

22 which would tell us something about what you told us a moment ago; that

23 is to say, the way in which goods were distributed from your warehouse,

24 the MTS, for the requirements of the BH Army. And in order to do that,

25 let us take a look at the first document, which is 2D00522.

Page 37828

1 Now, Mr. Majic, let me say by way of introduction that this is an

2 independence battalion for the defence of Mostar. It says, "The HVO" on

3 the document, and it is a request for ammunition, dated the 13th of July,

4 1992, and the request is signed by Arif Pasalic, and it is sent by the

5 HVO Municipal Staff of Mostar. Now, can you explain to the Trial Chamber

6 whether that was one of the ways in which the weapons were issued? And

7 you've already explained to us?

8 A. Yes. This is how they contacted the Municipal Staff. And if

9 there wasn't enough MTS in the Municipal Staff, then this would be

10 furnished by us or, rather, the Logistics Base would provide what was

11 needed.

12 Q. Mr. Majic, you said if there was not enough materiel and

13 technical equipment. Now, during the time that you were the

14 warehouse-keeper, that is to say, from the beginning of 1992 until

15 May 1993, did you have enough MTS to supply these requests by the BH Army

16 and also to satisfy the requests made by the HVO?

17 A. We always had a shortage of equipment.

18 Q. All right, thank you. Now let's look at the next document, which

19 is 2D0052 --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's stay with

21 document 2D0522. This is a document signed by Arif Pasalic on the

22 13th of July, 1992. As far as you know, on that day, on the

23 13th of July, 1992, was the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina an independent

24 state, recognised as such by the international community?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, I don't know.

Page 37829

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Regarding this

2 document we have in front of us, this is the first time I've seen it, but

3 does this show that Mr. Arif Pasalic belongs to the Independent Battalion

4 for the defence of Mostar of -- belonged to the HVO Independent

5 Battalion?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does this document show that

8 Mr. Arif Pasalic asked the HVO headquarters -- or, rather, sent them a

9 letter regarding weapons?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it does show that.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is this Arif Pasalic the one

12 who is going to find himself responsible for the ABiH in Mostar?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Majic, just to make things quite clear for the transcript,

17 this request is sent to the HVO of the Municipal Staff of Mostar; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, during the examination-in-chief, you spoke about

20 these cases, and they said sometimes they would contact the municipal

21 staffs, and if the municipal staffs did not have enough, did not have the

22 quantity specified and "... we had them, then the Logistics Base where I

23 worked would supply the goods." Did I understand you correctly?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now we're going to deal with similar documents, just to lay the

Page 37830

1 foundations for that, and look at the next document, 2D00523. This is,

2 as we can see from the heading, from the top part -- it says: "The

3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina." We see the ARBiH, the BH Army, and the

4 1st Mostar Brigade. The date is the 31st of October, 1992, and here we

5 can also see that it is signed by the commander, Mr. Arif Pasalic. And

6 this request once again went through the HVO Municipal Staff Mostar,

7 Logistics Department for the Technical Service. Can you confirm,

8 Mr. Majic, that this once again is the same procedure as we saw a moment

9 ago and explained earlier on?

10 A. Yes, it is the same.

11 Q. Can you just tell us whether it's the same procedure?

12 A. Yes, it is the same procedure as in the previous document.

13 Q. Now let's take a look at the next document, which is --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

15 Witness, this Arif Pasalic, in the previous document the

16 signature must have been in his name, because they're not the same

17 signatures. Do you agree with me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do agree.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But am I wrong in

20 saying that back in July Mr. Pasalic was in the HVO, and in October he

21 was with the ABiH?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Looking at both

24 documents, one could even believe it was the same typewriter that was

25 used, but that should be checked by an expert. But besides that, do we

Page 37831

1 realise that we have the same addressee in both documents, HVO, Opsinski

2 [phoen], Stozer, Mostar? So is it the same addressee? Sorry for the

3 spelling, the way I pronounce names.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's precisely it, the

5 same addressee.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we believe that this was

7 the same typewriter that was used? Look.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not at all, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you don't think so.

10 Very well, Ms. Nozica.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. But Mr. Majic, you're certainly no graphologist, no handwriting

13 expert. Therefore, you can't be certain whether it is or not, in fact;

14 am I right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let's move on to 2D524. Tell me as soon as you've found it, sir.

17 A. I've got it.

18 Q. The document bears the date the 12th of December, 1992, if I may

19 draw your attention to the date. It is a request to the municipal

20 headquarters of the HVO, Logistics Section, signed by Mithad Hajdar,

21 commander. It reads:

22 "Request for equipment and materiel. Given the fact that our

23 brigade has been carrying out combat operations in the Igman area on

24 lifting the blockade around the city of Sarajevo, we address you with

25 this request for delivery of the following MTS that is now required."

Page 37832

1 Different kinds of weapons are listed there, and so on and so

2 forth.

3 Mr. Majic, is this one of those requests that were dispatched to

4 municipal staffs?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Can we please move on to the next aspect, as you said, a way in

7 which the BH Army addressed the HVO, you, personally, in order to have

8 MTS delivered. Can you please now go to 2D1252.

9 Mr. Majic, the electronic copy of this document is not

10 particularly legible, but the date is the 29th of September, 1992. We

11 don't see the addressee. The text reads:

12 "Based on the agreement between Mr. Arif Pasalic, commander of

13 the 1st Mostar Brigade, commander of the Operative Group for South-East

14 Herzegovina, Mr. Poljak, Drago, and Mr. Pizovic, Bajro, commander of the

15 Bregava Brigade, Stolac, on taking offensive action with the objective of

16 clearing of the territory in the direction of Nevesinje, please approve

17 the following equipment: Mortar shells, artillery rounds," the types are

18 specified, "and ammunition," with the types requested specified.

19 The document is not signed but we see the names there, Arif

20 Pasalic, Drago Poljak, Bajro Pizovic.

21 Mr. Majic, did you receive requests like this at your own

22 logistics base, and how, if so?

23 A. There were numerous requests like this, many, many requests like

24 this. One of the ways was to address my superior, who would then issue

25 the distribution order and order the -- order hand-overs of MTS.

Page 37833

1 Sometimes copies arrived of these documents.

2 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you're telling us about the

3 procedure. Requests such as this one would be forwarded to your

4 superior; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And he would then draw up a distribution order; right?

7 A. Yes, right.

8 Q. But sometimes the distribution order would be a document like

9 this, showing exactly who is submitting the request?

10 A. Yes, that's quite right.

11 Q. And then based on the distribution order, you would distribute

12 equipment and materiel to whoever had their name clearly displayed in the

13 distribution order?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Can we please move on to the next document, and this is now again

16 something about the distribution of MTS.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We

18 started late today, and I thought we -- [no interpretation].

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let's have a break now, a

20 20-minute break.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Majic, can you please now look at 2D00955. Have you found

Page 37834

1 it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber what this is about? This is a

4 certificate of the HVO, Municipal Staff Grude, the 29th of April, 1992.

5 Can you explain to the Chamber, based on what you know, do you know these

6 persons? What exactly is this document about?

7 A. This is the Sarajevo TO Staff, and they are addressing directly

8 the Grude Municipal Staff. It is clear that this gentleman, Ante Busic,

9 is issuing certain equipment, and a gentleman who at the time was

10 commander, Nikola Nikolic, approves this so that the goods can be taken

11 to Sarajevo without encountering any obstacles, and the transport leader,

12 as it reads, is Enver Baskovic. I know Mr. Ante Busic, and I know

13 Mr. Nikola Nikolic personally.

14 Q. If I understand you correctly, this document shows that Mr. Busic

15 issued this equipment from 1 to 9; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And this commander, 1st Lieutenant Nikola Nikolic, issued this

18 certificate?

19 A. Yes, to transport this merchandise.

20 Q. Very well. Mr. Majic, do you know if it was necessary to issue

21 these authorisations every time weapons were transported at the time?

22 For example, you issuing equipment -- this isn't you in this document,

23 but when you or anyone else did that, was a pass required, regardless of

24 the fact whether it was your logistics base that was issuing equipment,

25 or whether equipment was merely moving through HZ-HB territory?

Page 37835

1 A. Each transport that occurred needed a pass or a permit to pass

2 through an area.

3 Q. Mr. Majic, you said during your examination-in-chief that there

4 were cases when weapons were obtained for the benefit of the BH Army in

5 the following way: The Defence Ministry of the Republic of Croatia would

6 deliver the goods to your logistics base, but the weapons would be

7 clearly marked as either for the BH Army or for the armed forces.

8 Can we now please go to a series of documents discussing that,

9 the first being 2D00630.

10 Have you found that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Please explain. This is a request dated the

13 10th of April, 1992, issued by the Defence Ministry of the Republic of

14 Croatia, stating the kind of equipment required, saying that this is for

15 the 106th Orasje Brigade of the HVO, BH armed forces, and then a list

16 with the names of persons who are supposed to take delivery. How exactly

17 did you take delivery of this equipment, and on what basis did you then

18 go on and distribute it?

19 A. I would first receive this in my warehouse, and then these

20 gentlemen would bring a distribution order. I would then act on it and

21 distribute equipment with the proviso that all of the distribution orders

22 were produced by my superior, Mr. Jelavic at the time.

23 Q. When you received this equipment, did you also receive an order

24 like this showing exactly who the equipment was for?

25 A. Yes, I always received a copy of the order.

Page 37836

1 Q. That's fine. Can we now move on to the next document, please.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small detail, Witness.

3 Ms. Nozica didn't ask you about it.

4 This is a document from Mr. Cermak, the assistant defence

5 minister, so he's an important person of authority in the Republic of

6 Croatia, and the date is 10th of October, 1992. This is ordering

7 materiel listed from 1 to 8. I am interested in the second line. It

8 says: "HVO, 106th Brigade, Orasje BiH armed forces."

9 Back in October 1992, did the BiH have a unit or not in Orasje?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there was only the

12 HVO 106th?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what the title appears to be

14 indicating, but there were Muslims too or, rather, Bosniaks in that

15 brigade.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there were also Muslims, you

17 say. I can see that it is written "BiH armed forces." This is a

18 document from Mr. Cermak. He could be a witness, because he's here

19 anyway. Does this not show that for the Ministry of Defence of the

20 Republic of Croatia, the 106th Brigade is part of the BiH armed forces?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't understand the

22 question.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a complex question.

24 You might not be able to answer it.

25 You were a military. As such, when you look at this document --

Page 37837

1 or could the one reading the document conclude that for General

2 Lieutenant Cermak, the 106th Brigade is part of the BiH armed forces?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is obvious.

4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Can we now move on to the next document, please, and the document

6 bears the following number -- or, rather, it's a rather different

7 document, in terms of who is receiving weapons, 3D00436.

8 Q. Mr. Majic, again a request signed by Mr. Cermak, the same date as

9 the previous one, but it reads:

10 "For issuance of materiel resources for the needs of the central

11 background base Grude, at the disposal of the BH Army Foca-Gorazde."

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could all the microphones

13 not being used be switched off, please. There is a lot of interference

14 and noise. We can't keep on interpreting because we can't hear counsel.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in order for you to receive

18 the weapons, in order for you to receive a copy of this request. What

19 did you do next?

20 A. We would take delivery of the MTS, and then there would be a

21 distribution order from my superior and we would follow that. As a

22 result, we would distribute and issue MTS.

23 Q. All right.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I saw the warning from the

25 interpreters. I will make sure that I'm facing the microphone.

Page 37838

1 Q. Can we please move on to the next document, 3D00437. Again, a

2 request by Mr. Cermak, or he's the person who signed the document. The

3 date this time around is the 16th of October, 1992. Was this request

4 followed -- or this order followed in the same way as all the previous

5 ones as you have described to us?

6 A. Yes, the same method was applied.

7 Q. Mr. Majic, we see the name Sahinpasic, Senad, written towards the

8 bottom of the page. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you're

9 familiar with this person and whether this person, for the purposes of

10 the BH Army, came to see you in order to get weapons? And if so, how

11 many times?

12 A. Mr. Sahinpasic came several times to Grude to get MTS.

13 Q. Was that for purposes of the BH Army?

14 A. Yes, every time.

15 Q. Fine. We see the timeline here in these. And the next one is

16 2D00898.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

18 Witness, in this document, we can see that Lieutenant

19 General Cermak wrote "BH Army" and "HVO." I can see in your language

20 that there is a little "i" between B and H, so for him there is the

21 BH Army and the HVO. I'm a little lost, because I see that after the

22 word "HVO," we have: "Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo and Visegrad." As far as

23 you know, in Gorazde, was there only the HVO?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that sort of

25 information.

Page 37839

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have no knowledge about it.

2 What about Foca and Trnovo and Visegrad?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know where these

4 towns are, but ...

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You see, when one reads this

6 document, there were 30 RPGs, mortars, 82 millimetres, 10 of them; M-80,

7 there are 30 pieces, et cetera. It's hard to see how this is distributed

8 between the ABiH and the HVO, because it says for the BH Army and HVO,

9 but regarding those places. So one could believe and infer from that

10 that all the pieces were going to be sent to Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo, and

11 Visegrad. But if there's no ABiH in those four localities, what is the

12 ABiH going to get? That's the question, but you can't answer it, or can

13 you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was no more than

15 warehouse-keeper. I didn't look into matters such as these. I wasn't

16 even thinking about that, let alone know anything of it.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you said that you were a

18 warehouse-keeper. Well, I was one, too, when I did my military service.

19 I was in charge of weapons. I would open the boxes and count the

20 weapons, but I would also think whilst doing it. What about you? You

21 can't answer it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, I can't. I don't

23 have the knowledge, I don't know. I have no specific knowledge for me to

24 be able to answer that.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We might see this with

Page 37840

1 other witnesses.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you said it.

3 There will be a witness coming in this week who will be able to explain

4 that, whether Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo, Visegrad and so on, whether there

5 was any HVO there.

6 Q. But as we're on this document, then we can see, sir, indubitably

7 that two names taking over these weapons, Sulejman Kalidzic and

8 Sahinpasic Senad were the people who took delivery before that. You said

9 Sahinpasic Senad, before that and after that, would take delivery of

10 weapons mostly for the BH Army. Am I right in saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now take a look at the next document, which is 2D898. And we

13 have here the same designation signed by the same man, Mr. Cermak. It is

14 the 24th of November, once again 1992, and it is a donation for the

15 requirements of the 109th Brigade, Doboj. And Mesic, Medzid is

16 mentioned, who is supposed to come and take delivery from Doboj. I want

17 to ask you whether this material reached you in Grude, and according to

18 the distribution order, did you hand it over to Mr. Mesic when he came to

19 collect them?

20 A. Yes, all these cases were done in the same way. I would act upon

21 the instructions and delivery notices.

22 Q. Now, the last document in this series is 2D0311. Have you found

23 it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And we're dealing with the 30th of March, 1993. It is

Page 37841

1 authorisation to issue MTS for the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

2 through the Logistics Base of Grude, and it is signed by the higher

3 advisor, professional advisor, Vladimir Zagorac. This is already an

4 exhibit, but would you look at the last page of the Croatian text of this

5 document, 2D0311. And here we have a fax excerpt, and we can see that it

6 was sent on the 30th of March, 1993, to Bruno Stojic and Safet Orucevic

7 at 0905 hours. Now, do you know which affairs Mr. Safet Orucevic dealt

8 with before that and then --

9 A. For the BH Army, he procured MTS.

10 Q. We'll just go over the subject of transportation very quickly.

11 And in order to do that, when it comes to permission granted, look at

12 2D11254.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me ask you a

14 question that might appear to be simple, but it might shed light on many

15 things.

16 Looking at this document, the date is the 30th of March. It

17 comes from the Ministry of Defence. It is an order for distribution to

18 the ABiH of military equipment, major equipment, because we have RPG-7s,

19 TNT, et cetera. You, who -- you were in the army, then you were a

20 military man, what do you think; would weapons be given to an enemy, or

21 to friends, or to at least a neutral party?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The weapons are given to friends.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would tend to give the

24 weapons to your friends. My question was a very basic question, but so

25 was your answer.

Page 37842

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Now let's go on, the same topic following on from

3 Judge Antonetti's questions. 2D01254 is the next document number. This

4 is a letter signed by the commander of the 4th Corps, Arif Pasalic.

5 2D01254 is the number. 01254, yes, that's right. This document,

6 although it's rather illegible, but we can nonetheless see that it's the

7 commander of the 4th Corps, Mr. Arif Pasalic, who has signed it. The

8 date of the document is, as far as we can see in my version, is the

9 9th of December. Well, anyway, it's December 1992, that's the date,

10 although the day is unclear. And Mr. Pasalic is saying:

11 "Please issue a permit for uninterrupted transport of material

12 and equipment (MTS) via the following route: Mostar-Jablanica-Prozor-

13 Gornji Vakuf-Bugojno-Travnik-Vitez-Visoko and once again Mostar.

14 Tell me, please, Mr. Majic, you haven't seen this document

15 before, have you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. But I'm sure you'll be able to clarify some points. What was

18 there in Visoko at that time, to the best of your knowledge?

19 A. It was the Central Logistics Base for the BH Army. That was what

20 was in Visoko.

21 Q. All right, fine. Now, the drivers and vehicles are listed for

22 the MTS transport, and then it says, in the middle of the document,

23 transport from Visoko to Mostar departs on the 31st of December, 1992.

24 Now, why was the transport due to depart from Visoko? Is that the

25 Logistics Base?

Page 37843

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right, thank you. Now, this transport going from Visoko to

3 Mostar, we have the following: We have the MTS, and then it says "VST."

4 What is VST?

5 A. It's a recoilless cannon.

6 Q. And we see that there were two pieces of those. Then we have

7 mortars, howitzers, mortar barrels, launchers, fuses for mines, and so

8 on. From this document, it follows that permission for the transport of

9 these weapons is being requested; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now let's look at the second page, and here it says the HVO

12 Main Staff allowed permission for the MTS transportation to take place;

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes, there's a signature.

15 Q. And a stamp too?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness, among others, is that the permit granted for each

18 transport?

19 A. Yes, that was standard practice.

20 Q. Well, let's look at another such document, which is 2D01041, and

21 it dates to March 1993, and this permission was granted and signed by

22 Mr. Bruno Stojic. Yes, the number is correct, 2D01041.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right, fine. Now let's take a look at the next document,

25 which is 2D229. This is a document dated the 26th of February, 1993.

Page 37844

1 It's an exhibit already. I'd like to draw your attention to point 2 of

2 this document, para 2, where Mr. Arif Pasalic says, and he's writing a

3 piece of information to the Staff of the Supreme Command of the

4 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Sefer Halilovic,

5 and here is what he says in point 2, para 2:

6 "Mr. Safet Orucevic successfully performed the main tasks for us

7 until now regarding the entrance of goods with the HVO. He was

8 successful until now."

9 Now, this is Mr. Arif Pasalic writing. To the best of your

10 knowledge, this cooperation between the HVO and the BH Army in certain

11 areas, not to say overall, was it as successful as was stated in this

12 document?

13 A. Yes, and that is based on -- well, we can refer to what I said

14 first, to the effect that Safet Orucevic was the main person for the

15 procurement of MTS for the BH Army.

16 Q. Mr. Majic, apart from the ways that we have described in which

17 the BH Army procured weapons, which mostly came from the Logistics Base

18 or via the Logistics Base in Grude where you were working, were there any

19 other ways in which the BH Army procured weapons?

20 A. Yes. The BH Army used humanitarian convoys as well.

21 Q. Before the humanitarian convoys, before we get to that, do you

22 know that the BH Army got weapons directly from the Ministry of Defence

23 of Croatia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And since you mentioned humanitarian convoys, did you know that

Page 37845

1 the BH Army used humanitarian convoys to receive aid?

2 A. I do have knowledge of that, and I have proof and evidence.

3 Q. What do you know about that? How do you know that the BH Army

4 used humanitarian convoys?

5 A. If it was found that they used humanitarian convoys to carry MTS,

6 our police would seize those materials and equipment, and that would be

7 taken to my warehouse, and they would say who it was taken from, in what

8 way, and so on. And then on the basis of an authorisation from my

9 superior, I would distribute that MTS.

10 Q. Now look at 2D8, please, and tell me when you've found it.

11 A. I have found it.

12 Q. This document is dated the 23rd of February, 1993, and we can see

13 that at the Doljani check-point, a vehicle with Gorazde license plates

14 with a trailer was stopped and that it was transporting humanitarian aid

15 for the Merhamet organisation of Gorazde, and that a detailed search was

16 conducted at the Military Police Administration at Ljubuski, and that it

17 was established that apart from the humanitarian aid in the vehicles,

18 there was military equipment found as well.

19 Now, take a look at page 5, I think it is, in your document, and

20 it is page 2D030006 of the Croatian version, which would correspond to

21 page 2D in the English, 030118 onwards. Mr. Majic, we have a list of

22 weapons seized; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then we have photo documentation which shows the type of

25 weapons that were seized; is that right?

Page 37846

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So, Mr. Majic, is that the convoy that you mentioned a moment

3 ago, when you said that when this MTS was uncovered, it was sent to your

4 warehouse?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Majic, asked several times by Judge Antonetti,

7 you said that you did not know the answer to some of the questions. You

8 said that you were just a warehouse-keeper during that period, and I'd

9 like to ask you now to explain to the Court how the warehouse in the

10 forest functioned from April 1992 until May 1993, and whether it required

11 your full engagement. How much time did you, in fact, spend in that

12 forest, in that warehouse?

13 A. Your Honours, day and night, 'round the clock, 24 hours. I was

14 there in the warehouse all the time.

15 Q. Did you have to provide security for the warehouse?

16 A. Yes. We had to take care of security issues for the warehouse,

17 unloading the MTS that were not supposed to get wet.

18 Q. I see. Now, in the area, was there any way in which you could

19 lock it up, make it secure, store it, or were these MTS accessible to

20 everyone, in view of where they were located?

21 A. Yes, it was out in the open, as I said, so to all intents and

22 purposes accessible, only with the guards securing it.

23 Q. Well, is that why you said that you spent almost 24 hours there,

24 'round the clock?

25 A. Yes, that was one of the reasons.

Page 37850

1 will actually include the Defence binder, so if you could have both of

2 those accessible.

3 I'm just going to go back to the testimony from this last hour,

4 in which you indicated, in answer to a question, that the HVO and the

5 BH Army cooperated in certain areas. Would you clarify for us in what

6 areas that the BH Army and the HVO Army cooperated?

7 A. Your Honours, I can't do that. I don't have that kind of

8 knowledge. I can't be specific about it, and I don't want to commit.

9 Q. But nonetheless, you understood that there was cooperation;

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, in several different places.

12 Q. And that cooperation also existed over different periods of time;

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And, for example, that cooperation between the HVO and the

16 Muslims, the BH Army, would include much of 1992 in Mostar. Would you

17 agree with that?

18 A. I agree.

19 Q. And that cooperation would even creep into the beginning of 1993

20 in Mostar; correct?

21 A. As far as I know, that's correct, as far as I know.

22 Q. And so when Judge Antonetti asked you quite candidly whether you

23 would give weapons to friends or enemies, you indicated that you would

24 give weapons to friends. Do you remember that testimony?

25 A. Yes, I remember, and it's true.

Page 37851

1 Q. And so those friends would include the BH Army in Mostar, at

2 least in 1992; correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And that those friends would also include the BH Army in Mostar

5 in the early part of 1993; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Although you've indicated that you have limited knowledge of the

8 cooperation, would you agree with me that there was also cooperation in

9 other areas of Bosnia? An example of that would be the Posavina area?

10 A. My information suggests that that is true. I don't have that

11 much information or close information just to be sure.

12 Q. And recently the Trial Chamber heard from Stipo Buljan, who is

13 the head of welfare for the HVO in the Posavina and, later, the Republic.

14 And at page 36822, he was posed this question, and the question was:

15 "And so you'll agree with me that when the Muslims and Croats

16 were fighting each other in Mostar in 1993, the Muslims and Croats were

17 cooperating with each other in Posavina?"

18 And his answer was: "Yes, that's right."

19 Mr. Majic, is that consistent with your understanding as well?

20 A. As far as I know, generally speaking, that would be the case.

21 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that another area of cooperation was

22 in Sarajevo in 1992 and for part of 1993?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And recently the Trial Chamber heard from Dragan Pinjuh that in

25 Sarajevo, they were cooperating up until November of 1993, and that was

Page 37852

1 in regard to a question before Judge Antonetti, and that is the

2 following, where the question was:

3 "In other words, until November of 1993, the HVO and the ABiH had

4 a common enemy, the Serbs?"

5 And the answer was: "Yes."

6 Sir, do you agree with that assessment?

7 A. Yes, that's right, we had the same enemy. I can tell you, from

8 my own experience, that we never considered the BH Army to be a real

9 enemy. I said something a while ago to the effect that when the Serbs

10 wanted to make it easier on themselves, they would infiltrate their own

11 agents to stir up trouble between the Croats and the Bosniaks, which then

12 made their lives easier, for at least a year and a half, until the

13 Washington Accords were signed, and then we joined forces again to free

14 our territories from the enemy that we shared, the Serbs.

15 Q. Sir, in regard to that issue, today Judge Antonetti asked you

16 whether you considered the Muslims to be brothers-in-arms or friends, and

17 your response to that question was:

18 "I personally did not consider them to be my enemies."

19 And so my question to you is: If you personally did not believe

20 that, did you know other people who did consider them to be your enemies?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object. What is the

22 relevance of all of this, and what does it have to do with this

23 gentleman's testimony? It's beyond the scope of direct examination and

24 it's totally irrelevant. There was a conflict.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, what is the relevance

Page 37853

1 of your question?

2 MS. WEST: Sir, this -- this witness is being brought here to

3 indicate to you that the HVO gave weapons and supplies to the BiH Army

4 equally and without disregard to when the request came in. This

5 gentleman indicated that he had no personal animosity towards the

6 Muslims. Obviously, it's the -- it's the Prosecution's case that there

7 was an animosity, and I'm asking him to speak further on that particular

8 issue. This was a question that was brought up by the Bench.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may briefly respond.

10 First of all, this gentleman can't speak for anybody else. He's

11 speaking for himself.

12 Secondly, we've had testimony about the enormous amount of help

13 that the ABiH was receiving from the Republic of Croatia as well as from

14 the Croats within Bosnia-Herzegovina. I fail to see the relevance of

15 this line of questioning, keeping in mind that there is a conflict that

16 goes on for a period of time off and on in different areas, and in

17 different areas there's a different level of cooperation, and also

18 keeping in mind that if she's going to go into that, that perhaps she

19 should also ask the gentleman how much of the arms and funding that

20 Izetbegovic was receiving from the Islamic community, how much of that

21 was going into their warehouses. That is a question that I would really

22 like to know.

23 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, good afternoon.

24 With respect, I would join my learned friend Mr. Karnavas'

25 objection in this regard. The question is, in fact, extremely wide. Of

Page 37854

1 course, it may well be the case that in a population, there are a number

2 of disparate views. That is hardly a matter of controversy between the

3 parties.

4 Your Honours, the reason this witness is being called is the core

5 evidence, and I'd ask my learned friend to controvert -- seek to

6 controvert that, is that a lot of weapons were given to the Army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Now, Your Honour, the other issues are somewhat tangental, and

9 although the core allegation may not suit the Prosecution's case, the

10 core thrust of this witness's testimony, I would ask Your Honours that

11 the Prosecution be directed to seek to controvert that core aspect, and

12 that is the purpose for which we called this witness.

13 Your Honours, of course, in a community it is not being said for

14 a moment that there is a homogeneous attitude from all the people of a

15 Herceg-Bosna or all the people of Croatia or all the people of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. As an entity, in any pluralistic society there are

17 disparate views, and that is not controverted by the Defence of

18 Mr. Stojic.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 I agree with Mr. Khan, the Croatian Community was not

21 homogeneous, but all the more reason for the witness to tell us what his

22 view on the situation was and how he perceived the situation. This is

23 what Ms. West is trying to highlight. Of course, he can't speak on

24 behalf of other people. What we are interested in is what he thinks

25 about this.

Page 37855

1 Ms. West, put your question. Make sure your question is a

2 precise question, since you want to know what he thinks of this.

3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Mr. Witness, in your position at the warehouse, having the

5 opportunity to send out supplies and arms to different people, different

6 groups all across Bosnia-Herzegovina, you must have had an opportunity to

7 be in the position to speak to both people from the BH Army and people

8 from the HVO Army; and as a result of those experiences, what is your

9 personal opinion in regard to whether the BH Army or Muslim soldiers were

10 the enemy or the friend of the HVO?

11 A. From where I stood at the beginning, they were friends, but then,

12 as I said, they were manipulated by - what should I call them? - the

13 instigators of chaos, who wanted to get the two parties to quarrel so

14 that they might then prevail, and these people were our true enemy.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that earlier

16 on, and then Ms. West moved on to something else, but now you return to

17 that previous topic, and I must say that this is the first time I've been

18 hearing this. I'm therefore keenly interested, and I try to understand

19 what you're saying.

20 If I understand properly, on the one hand we have the Serbs, and

21 on the other, the ABiH and the HVO. But then you added this: You said

22 that the Serbs infiltrated between the individuals -- between the ABiH

23 and the HVO, in order to create problems between the ABiH and the HVO.

24 Is that what you said before?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. That's what

Page 37856

1 I had in mind. That's what I said.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a first. This is the

3 first time I'm hearing this. What enables you to say that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My information concerning Jugo

5 officers in Yugoslavia, which had a peculiarity, the peculiarity being

6 the appointments of Serbs to all diplomatic positions, to all

7 intelligence positions, because that's what they did, and all this anger

8 and all the defeats that we inflicted on them, they did everything within

9 their power to take revenge, to infiltrate, and to seek out a third

10 enemy, and that's what they were drawing upon.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But do you have any evidence in

12 support of what you say or are these just thoughts, individual thoughts

13 of yours?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a result of my life in

15 Yugoslavia, up until its break-up.

16 MS. WEST:

17 Q. Mr. Majic, you've indicated that there was some cooperation in

18 Mostar in 1992, the beginning of 1993, in Posavina and in Sarajevo, so

19 would you agree with me that in those areas it would not have been

20 unusual for the HVO to send supplies to the Muslims or to allow transport

21 of supplies to the Muslims in those areas of cooperation?

22 A. No problem at all, as far as I knew.

23 Q. And indeed, by doing so, the HVO was helping to fight a common

24 enemy, and in those places the common enemy would have been the Serbs?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 37857

1 Q. So what I'd like to do now is go through a number of the exhibits

2 that you reviewed with Ms. Nozica. So if you can actually have both

3 binders available to you, and I'd like to categorise each of these

4 exhibits.

5 I'm going to go directly through -- I believe they should be

6 chronological, and the first is 2D00311. Perhaps that's at the end.

7 Do you have that?

8 A. 311.

9 Q. Now, this is a document that you testified -- and it was

10 highlighted that Mr. Stojic received this by fax, and that would be the

11 third page. When we go through these documents, we're going to highlight

12 something different about them, and the difference is going to be to

13 where these supplies were going.

14 So would you agree with me that in this case, the person who was

15 responsible for the materials to pick up is Mr. Seta, Suajb from

16 Sarajevo? If you look at the very first page of the B/C/S, it's the

17 first page of the B/C/S, do you see it says responsible individual for

18 material pickup is Mr. Seta, Suajb from Sarajevo; do you see that?

19 A. Yes, Suajb Seta. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. And as you've already indicated, you would agree that Sarajevo,

21 in March of 1993, was an area of cooperation between the HVO and the BiH?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And so this would not be unusual [Realtime transcript read in

24 error "usual"] for the HVO to be allowing distribution of resources to

25 the BH Army in Sarajevo at the time; correct?

Page 37858

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Let's go to 2D00522, and this might be in the beginning of the

3 Defence binder -- of the Defence binder. It's 2D00522, and it's the

4 other binder. My apologies. 522.

5 All right. This is a document that you talked about on direct,

6 and this is signed by Commander Pasalic. And you -- you would agree with

7 me that Arif Pasalic was the commander of the 4th Corps of the BH Army;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And this document is dated July 13th, 1992, and would it be fair

11 to say that that is a period of time -- that would be the height of

12 cooperation between the HVO and the BH Army in Mostar?

13 A. I don't really know about the date when.

14 Q. Nonetheless, this is 1992, in Mostar, and that was a period of

15 time when the Serbs --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan.

17 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, thank you.

18 Just one correction to the transcript. Page 57, line 5, I

19 believe my learned friend's question, accurately put, was that it would

20 not be unusual, rather than usual, which the transcript currently reads.

21 I believe that's right.

22 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. Khan. That is right.

23 Q. So, sir, July of 1992, this is a period of time within a month

24 after the HVO and the BiH got the Serbs out of Mostar; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37859

1 Q. So if you can go to 2D00523, it should be just the next one.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is another request from Commander Pasalic. It's

4 October 1992, and the very first sentence says:

5 "Considering upcoming combat actions and the tasks of the

6 1st Mostar Brigade, we require the following type of ... ammunition ..."

7 Would you also agree with me that this is another document that

8 was issued in 1992 when the HVO and the BH Army were cooperating together

9 in Mostar?

10 A. I agree. As far as the dates are concerned, if that's what's

11 indicated, well, then, no reason not to believe it. Right?

12 Q. And there was also no reason to not help the Muslim Army with

13 ammunition and hand-grenades during that time; correct?

14 A. As far as I know, what you're saying is true.

15 Q. If you can go to the next document. It should just be the next

16 one, 524. This is a document that you looked at earlier. It's dated

17 December 1992. It's from a commander, and it says:

18 "Considering the combat actions by our brigade in the area of

19 Igman on breaking the blockade around the city of Sarajevo, we are

20 contacting you with a request ..."

21 So this regards sending MTS to Sarajevo. This was a period of

22 time when the BH Army and the HVO were cooperating in Sarajevo; right?

23 A. I really can't say what happened when. I don't know the dates,

24 because I just worked in the warehouse. Let me repeat that. I took

25 delivery of goods and issued them out, and I didn't see most of the

Page 37860

1 items, and I don't know what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina when -- when

2 the conflict broke out and so on, and I keep saying this. As far as I'm

3 concerned, there were no conflicts between us and the BH Army, and not

4 from my superiors, either, those of them who are in court here today.

5 Q. I know you say that as far as you're concerned and for some of

6 the superiors who are in the courtroom today that there was no conflict,

7 you would agree that starting in a -- sometime in 1993, that there was

8 conflict in Herceg-Bosna between the HVO and the BH Army?

9 A. Indubitably, yes, you can't avoid that. I can't say that there

10 wasn't a conflict.

11 Q. And you've not shown us today a document in the binder in front

12 of you that shows any distribution of MTS to the BH Army after even

13 February of 1993, have you?

14 A. Yes, there is.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to object. This

16 is a very imprecise question, because we did see documents dating till

17 after February, but the Prosecutor has to say to whom and when, and does

18 it mean that if they were not contained in the binder that they don't

19 exist? Yes, we have seen documents after February 1993.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you may be wrong. We

21 have a document dated 6th of March, 2D1041.

22 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour. Let's go straight to that.

23 That's 2D01041.

24 Q. And this is a document dated March 6th, correct, 1993, and it

25 says:

Page 37861

1 "By which it is approved for which Mr. Ismet Mehmedovic from

2 Gradac [sic], uninterrupted transport on the route from Ploce to

3 Gradac [sic], of the following equipment."

4 So you would agree with me that Ploce is -- that's a Croatian

5 port; correct?

6 A. Yes, it says "passing through," en route to, Ploce-Gradacac.

7 Q. And Gradac [sic] is in the Posavina, is it not?

8 A. In part, yes, but who is taking delivery of the MTS here we see

9 is Mr. Ismet -- I can't -- it's not quite legible.

10 Q. And, sir, my question to you is: Gradac [sic], and I think

11 I'm -- I'm sure I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, that's in the area of

12 the Posavina, is it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in March of 1993, there was cooperation between the HVO and

15 the BH Army in the Posavina, was there not?

16 A. Well, I do have reason not to believe. I don't have that

17 information, to be quite frank.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the

20 Prosecution is suggesting something that quite simply is not correct.

21 Now, if the witness doesn't know, he can say he doesn't know, but

22 Gradacac at this point in time is part of Tuzla, and it goes to the

23 Tuzla Corps, that delivery. And so the Prosecutor wishes to introduce a

24 maximum of confusion into this -- these proceedings.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently Gradacac is close to

Page 37862

1 Tuzla.

2 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Assuming we take that as testimony from Mr. Praljak, then even if

4 Gradac [sic] isn't part of Tuzla, Tuzla was also a place of cooperation

5 between the HVO and the BH Army, was it not?

6 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I don't agree with taking anything

7 as testimony from Mr. Praljak. He'll have the opportunity to give

8 testimony at the proper time. But on occasion, it is of assistance to

9 the parties to have clarification. And of course the Prosecution, being

10 desirous of getting to the truth, if a fact has been clarified, it only

11 behooves them to put it based -- squarely to the witness as to whether or

12 not that clarification will help Your Honours get to the truth. So,

13 Your Honours, I would ask that a very straightforward question be put to

14 the witness, not on the basis of any evidence given by Mr. Praljak, but

15 on the basis of a clarification that hopefully will assist the

16 Prosecution to perform their functions, which is to very squarely and

17 fairly put the evidence before Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please continue.

19 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Sir, let's continue on with the Posavina, because I'd like to get

21 to these documents. We'll go back to where we ended, which is 2D00630.

22 You may have to go back a little bit. 630.

23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, we don't have an answer, with the

24 greatest of respect, to the question. So perhaps either the question can

25 be withdrawn or the question can be properly and squarely put, as I've

Page 37863

1 requested. But there is no answer to the question put by my learned

2 friend.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you may know this or

4 you may not. Is Gradacac in Posavina or is it close to Tuzla, as far as

5 you know?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Near Tuzla. Now, geography --

7 well, judging by who is taking delivery of the goods, then it's quite

8 obvious that it's for the BH Army units.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. West.

10 MS. WEST:

11 Q. Sir, Tuzla was an area of cooperation between the HVO and the

12 BiH Army as well, was it not?

13 A. As far as I know, yes.

14 MS. WEST: Can we put P10887 on Sanction.

15 Q. This might be helpful to us, sir. This is a map of the

16 front-lines in July of 1993, but more simply, it's just a map of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 So we see, if you look in the upper sort of right corner, you see

19 Gradac [sic]. Do you see that? There is a red line, a red Serb

20 front-line running right through it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And assuming that red Serb front-line is accurate, you would

23 agree with me that in that area, there was a Serb front, a Serb

24 front-line?

25 A. Well, on the basis of this, but I am really not a reader of maps.

Page 37864

1 I don't have the knowledge, personally, how to read this map correctly.

2 Q. Would you also agree that that area, that general area up there,

3 is, if not the Posavina, very close to the Posavina and just north of

4 Tuzla, both areas of cooperation?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on this map,

6 Gradacac is quite a fair bit far away from Tuzla, isn't it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some 50 to 70 kilometres

9 removed, on a straight line?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know for sure what

11 the distance is.

12 MS. WEST:

13 Q. Mr. Witness, while we have the map in front of us, you see the

14 municipality above Gradac [sic], which, I'll spell it, is O-r-a-s-j-e.

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you agree with me that that is the area of the Posavina?

18 A. Orasje is in Posavina, yes.

19 Q. If we can go to 2D00630.

20 A. I have it.

21 Q. You looked at this document during direct testimony, and it's

22 October 10th, 1992. It's for issuance of material resources for the

23 needs of Central Rear Base Grude and at the disposal -- or for the HVO

24 106 Brigade Orasje BiH armed forces. And we had some discussion earlier

25 about whether the BH and HVO had actual forces there, and you remember

Page 37865

1 testifying that you knew at least that there were Bosniaks in the HVO.

2 Do you remember that?

3 I think you have -- I think you'll have to speak louder.

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And in addition, you would agree with me that these -- and these

6 material resources were going to the area of the Posavina, an area of

7 cooperation?

8 A. It would appear to follow from this, but I didn't give it much

9 thought.

10 Q. Do you still have the map in front of you? Is the map still on

11 your screen?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can -- is it now?

14 A. Yes, it's there now.

15 Q. And you see, to the west of the town of -- or the municipality of

16 Doboj, west of Gradac [sic], do you see that town?

17 A. What's the name of the town? Yes, I can see Doboj, yes.

18 Q. Now go to 2D00898. This is another document that you looked

19 on -- looked at during direct, and it's an authorisation for transport of

20 materials. And while we're speaking about transport, this is not -- a

21 number of the items -- a number of the documents that you have seen

22 regard two separate things, and I just want to know, to clarify this, one

23 is for the -- the agreement that items can be transported through a

24 particular territory; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 37866

1 Q. And those transport authorisations for ABiH and materials mean

2 that it's the Bosnian-Herzegovina Army's materials, it's just that the

3 HVO is saying, Okay, you can go through this area?

4 A. In certain situations. It went to the Central Logistics Base,

5 directly to me. Then I would be given instructions, and I would issue

6 the goods according to those -- those instructions in this particular

7 case.

8 Q. So in this particular case, these items are going ultimately to

9 Doboj; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that's also an area that's close to the Posavina; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you go to the next document, which is just nine --

14 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

16 MS. TOMANOVIC: I do not have a mike -- [Interpretation] I think

17 I have a right to say something, because I'm from Doboj myself. Doboj is

18 not in Posavina. That's for sure, no. [In English] Not in Posavina.

19 MS. WEST: If I may --

20 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, I had also a comment, a kind of

21 objection.

22 Your Honour, this is the second time the Prosecutor is using the

23 description "it is close to." Well, first, it's very subjective. What

24 is close to maybe your friend is not close to me. I can walk, she cannot

25 walk, et cetera, et cetera. Particularly -- particularly in the

Page 37867

1 conditions of war, something was very close, but, for example, in some

2 cases there is a huge mountain in between, this is another country, this

3 is like it is in Australia. So I think we should be very precise. Is it

4 part of the region, meaning communication of people, goods, et cetera, or

5 it is entirely another word. It cannot be "close." There is no close

6 position in the war.

7 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Sir, can you go --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, I'm sure you have

10 understood what the problem is. You are saying "close to." What does

11 this mean, exactly?

12 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I do understand what the problem is,

13 but I would submit that the theme of my cross-examination is of no

14 surprise to anyone. What we are doing is going through each of these

15 documents to show that when the HVO was giving supplies or authorising

16 transport of these materials to the BH Army, they were not doing it as a

17 favour to the BH Army, they were doing it because it was in their own

18 interests. These are all areas of cooperation. Had any of these counsel

19 asked to -- asked questions on cross-examination, they could have

20 explored this very issue. But with all due respect to my learned friend

21 who's from Doboj, that is not an appropriate comment to make as an

22 objection. I did say "close to Posavina." I was careful about that, but

23 to be clear, it seems unusual to me to hear these types of -- these types

24 of objections during my cross-examination when none of them took an

25 opportunity to do the cross themselves.

Page 37868

1 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I make it clear that it has not been

2 asserted, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, that the provision of weapons was a

3 favour to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. No doubt there are mutual

4 interests. Even in friendships -- the question of friendships was raised

5 by Your Honours. Even in friendships, they have to be reciprocal, if

6 they are to be lasting. So, Your Honours, as far as that's concerned,

7 the response of my learned friend really doesn't have legs, in my

8 respectful submission.

9 Your Honour, it's --

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Khan, it seems to me you're pleading, you're

11 presenting arguments to the merits, and I wonder whether this is really

12 the moment to do this.

13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, it is, in my respectful submission,

14 because if one reads what -- Your Honour, perhaps Your Honour could be

15 patient before just moving on. I would invite Your Honour to read

16 exactly what my learned friend Ms. West very eloquently put about the

17 theme of her cross-examination, and she went into that. That is not a

18 response to an objection.

19 The objection put forward by me is not the lack of notice by my

20 learned friend. I'm not surprised in the least regarding the area she's

21 seeking to go into, but it's a question of precision. That was the form

22 of objection that my learned friends raised, a question of precision, not

23 notice regarding theme. And to that extent, Your Honours, it is my

24 respectful submission that my objection and those of my colleagues for

25 the other teams should be sustained.

Page 37869

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now have a 20-minute

2 break, since it is now time to have a break. We shall resume in

3 20 minutes' time.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have 46 minutes

7 left.

8 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Majic, I'm going to ask you to go to the bigger binder now.

10 And if you can please go to 2D01250, and it's in the back. It's 2D01250.

11 It's a yellow tab.

12 This is a February 14th, 1993, letter from Commander Pasalic

13 again of the Muslim Army, and in it he is asking the HVO to take

14 possession and transport a number of items for the 4th Corps. And it

15 gives the list of the resources, and it indicates materials and equipment

16 for the needs of the ABiH 4th Corps forces, and because of the possible

17 offensive by the Chetniks, it is necessary that "you immediately issue a

18 permit for uninterrupted passage of the transport via ..." and then it

19 goes through these towns, and it goes through Visoko, which you mentioned

20 earlier was the ABiH Logistics Centre; right?

21 A. Yes, that is right.

22 Q. But if you go to the second page of the English, but I -- it's

23 your first page in the B/C/S, it says:

24 "We have contacted you with this request earlier on

25 January 15th, 1993, but you have not permitted the transport."

Page 37870

1 Mr. Majic, February of 1993, you -- this was when you were

2 working at the warehouse; correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. And you were also there the month earlier, January 15th, 1993;

5 right?

6 A. January? Yes, January, the first month, "sijecanj," January.

7 Q. You worked at the warehouse in January as well; yes?

8 A. I don't understand. Yes, in January, yes. We call the month

9 "Sijecanj," January.

10 Q. Thank you. And do you remember a request like this coming

11 through on January 15th from Commander Pasalic?

12 A. No. I apologise, but I didn't receive requests like this. My

13 superiors received the requests, and then when they issued instructions

14 for distribution, then I would act upon those instructions.

15 Q. I'm sorry, that's correct. You testified that it was the

16 distribution you would receive; right?

17 A. Yes, yes, that's right, order for distribution.

18 Q. And on January 15th, do you ever remember receiving an order for

19 distribution for this request?

20 A. As far as I remember, I would say rather yes than no, but I can't

21 claim for sure, because how do I know order for distribution? I would be

22 more than a computer if I could remember all the details.

23 Q. Fair enough --

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

25 getting to my feet, but I'd like to ask my learned friend that in the

Page 37871

1 introduction -- say that in the introduction, it is an issue of approval,

2 it's an approval for safe passage. It is not an order for distribution.

3 It is an approval for safe passage for the goods. So when she asks the

4 witness whether he received an order for distribution, she cannot base

5 her question on this document, because this is approval for transport,

6 not approval for distribution of the MTS.

7 MS. WEST: Thank you. I'll accept that.

8 Q. Mr. Witness, but again if we focus on page 2 of the English,

9 where it says: "We have contacted you with this request earlier on

10 January 15th, 1993, but you have not permitted the transport," my

11 question to you is, are you aware on that date of an ultimatum being

12 issued by Mr. Prlic indicating that all units of the BH Army should be

13 subordinated to the HVO and giving a dead-line of five days?

14 A. No, I don't have that knowledge.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: And may I object for the record, Your Honour.

16 According to the question, it is that Prlic issued. I think we've gone

17 around and round on this, and I think it's an imprecise -- and I know the

18 Prosecution, like a broken record, wishes and wishes to mention it and

19 hopefully it will become history, but that is not the case. This was a

20 decision taken by a collective body, and let's address it as that.

21 Whether it was an ultimatum or not, I leave it for the Court. So I would

22 also object to that characterisation of that particular decision. Thank

23 you.

24 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I'll move on. He indicated he doesn't

25 have any knowledge, anyways.

Page 37872

1 Q. Sir, if you can go to P01499 in the binder in front of you, 1499.

2 So this is a document that's dated February 16th, 1993. This is

3 just two days later than the other document I just showed you, and it's a

4 request again from -- no, excuse me, it looks like it's from the chief of

5 the Defence Department, Mr. Mijo Anjic [phoen], but it's a list of

6 technical and motor equipment for the 108th HVO Brcko Brigade. But what

7 I'd like to focus on, on the B/C/S on the side, you see a handwritten

8 note, and that note says:

9 "Dear Mr. Jarnjak, please inform Ploce, Mr. Redzo, to let these

10 means pass to HVO Grude and up."

11 I'll just stop for a moment. Mr. Majic, it's on the side of the

12 B/C/S. You see it's written up the side, it's handwritten. So it's --

13 yeah, there you go. So it's the handwritten language up the side, and

14 I'm going to read that. It says:

15 "Please inform Ploce to let these means pass to HVO Grude.

16 Please intensify the control of loading of humanitarian aid in Split.

17 Muslims are smuggling weapons using these -- those convoys. Sincerely

18 yours," and then it says, "Slobodan," and the English says "family name

19 illegible," but if you look at the B/C/S, I would submit that says

20 "Slobodan Praljak." Do you see that handwriting?

21 A. Yes, I do see that, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't mean

22 anything. It's not indicative of anything.

23 Q. Well, if I were to suggest to you that it might be indicative of

24 Mr. -- or the signatory was concerned about Muslims having weapons,

25 Muslims are smuggling weapons using these convoys, would you agree with

Page 37873

1 that, that there's some concern there?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. Objection. The text

3 stands for what it says right there. As to what interpretation or spin

4 should be given to the text, that would be left to the Judges, not for

5 this witness to speculate. That's not proper evidence.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, don't forget that the

7 witness has -- since he was working in the Logistics Centre and was

8 taking delivery of material and equipment, he only has a piecemeal

9 understanding of all of this. Anything more complicated goes beyond the

10 scope of his knowledge.

11 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll move on.

12 Q. Mr. Majic, you have testified that there were places and times

13 where the HVO and the Croats cooperated together. Were there also places

14 and times when the HVO and the Serbs cooperated together?

15 A. No, I don't have that knowledge myself.

16 Q. All right. But would you agree with me that the Grude Logistics

17 Base was also the source of supplies to -- sometimes to the Serbs?

18 A. I don't have that knowledge. In my sector, where I was in charge

19 of the MTS, that's not true.

20 Q. Okay. Let's look at P08118. It's P08118. This is the annual

21 report for the Supplies Procurement/Production Sector for 1993, and this

22 the group with whom you worked; right? This is where you worked?

23 A. Yes, but I was not involved in producing this, this report.

24 Q. I understand that. And if you go to the second page of the

25 English, there's a sort of a cover page, and it's signed by Ante Jelavic.

Page 37874

1 He was your supervisor; right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Now, I understand that you did not take part in writing this, but

4 I'd like to go over a couple of the comments in here to see if you can

5 shed any light on them. If you can go to page 20 of the English, but the

6 B/C/S is date-stamped "0346-9369."

7 MS. WEST: And I think, Mr. Usher, he will probably need some

8 help with this. It ends in "369."

9 Q. Maybe I'll just read this out in English, but the B/C/S ends

10 in -- it's date-stamped 0346-9369, it ends in 369, and it's the last

11 sentence on the page. But in English this is talking about fuel, and

12 it's under the heading of "Realisation of set tasks." And in the

13 English, it says:

14 "The transport of fuel for 'X' by fuel truck convoys was directly

15 organised by the transport administration and effected by the transport

16 company."

17 Mr. Majic, do you have any idea what that sentence means and

18 who -- what is the identity of X?

19 A. No, no idea. I don't know.

20 Q. I'm just going to show you -- it's page 25 of the English, and

21 the B/C/S ends in "416." Can you hear?

22 A. It's back.

23 Q. And this is under the heading of "Procurement of TTS," and in

24 English it's the bottom of the page -- or for the B/C/S, it's the second

25 paragraph, and it says:

Page 37875

1 "Fuel for side X was obtained by the Technical and Procurement

2 Administrations. This obstructed in planning of consumption and caused

3 additional problems in terms of procurement, transport, and meeting

4 expenses."

5 Mr. Majic, does that second reading of this report give you an

6 understanding of what "X" means?

7 A. I don't know, I really don't. I was a deputy, but I was attached

8 to the Construction Administration. Frankly, I have no idea.

9 Q. Mr. Majic, have you ever heard of the XY side?

10 A. Frankly, no.

11 Q. I'm going to read some testimony to you and see if we can explore

12 this further.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object, Your Honour, to this line of

14 questioning. The gentleman has already indicated that he doesn't know

15 what X is, or XY, or XYZ, or whatever the case may be, so reading

16 testimony to somehow get the witness to vouch for something is improper.

17 At this point, this is beyond the scope of the gentleman's knowledge, and

18 I think we need to appreciate that.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, Mr. Karnavas has just

20 said something important. It is beyond the scope of the gentleman's

21 knowledge. You are trying to introduce, through him, data that we have

22 available, because this has been addressed already. But obviously the

23 witness is not aware of this, so it's a waste of time. What's the point

24 of it? He does not know that there might have been some kind of

25 "cooperation," quote/unquote, with the Serbs, as might be indicated by

Page 37876

1 the document. He said that three times in a row, he said, "I don't

2 know."

3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. However, what this witness

4 should be able to testify in regard to is whether any supplies went out

5 of Grude for XY, and those are the documents I'm about to get into.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: If the gentleman doesn't know what XY is,

7 Your Honour, I don't see how it helps. It really -- at this point in

8 time, Your Honour, you do need to issue an instruction for our learned

9 friend to move on.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're going to go

11 straight -- cut to the chase, because this could go forever.

12 From where you were, from Grude, from the Logistics Base, as far

13 as you know, was there to be addressed to the Serbs weapons, ammunition,

14 fuel, that was sent, as seems to be indicated by this document?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, certainly not. I have no

16 knowledge of that at all. That is where we should begin. I really don't

17 know.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, Ms. West, he's been saying

19 this four times, saying that he doesn't know anything about it.

20 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on to P04272. We're going to move off of

22 X, but I'd like to continue to talk about any knowledge you might have

23 about HVO and Serb cooperation. This is an ECMM report, and I would just

24 note that the document, I think, cannot be shown publicly on the screen.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again I'm going to have a standing

Page 37877

1 objection. We need to move on on this. Trying to force the gentleman

2 into saying something that he doesn't know or to get him to speculate is

3 not helpful to anybody.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, you are

5 stubborn. The witness was adamant, he said he didn't know, and now you

6 come up with a document from an international organisation, so obviously

7 he doesn't know a thing, not the first thing about it, in order to return

8 to the topic. What a waste of time.

9 MS. WEST: Mr. President, most respectfully, I disagree. The

10 issue with this witness is whether Grude was supplying Muslims in areas

11 of cooperation, to which he has provided this Court with an answer that

12 they have. What I would like to show is that Grude was also supplying

13 weapons and arms and supplies to the Serbs. Since he was based at Grude,

14 and he may not know what "XY" means, but since he's based at Grude and

15 he's getting a distribution order from Ante Jelavic, he should be able to

16 comment on what sort of items are going out of Grude.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I most respectfully submit that if

18 that is their theory, that perhaps they could put it or they should have

19 put it through their witnesses, but to now try to get the gentleman to

20 somehow agree that they were supplying the Serbs as they were supplying

21 the Muslims, this is not the time or place or individual. You know, I

22 would love to debate this point, and I will continue to debate this

23 point, but we need to move on.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, if you want to waste

25 your time, go ahead, but you know, Madam Prosecutor, I read the

Page 37878

1 Milutinovic judgement. In the Milutinovic case, the Prosecution had

2 asked for 260 hours. It used only 160 hours. So I suppose that your

3 colleagues from the Milutinovic case made best use of their time. Now

4 you are wasting it.

5 Go ahead, if you so wish.

6 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll move on.

7 Q. Mr. Majic, you indicated that up until at least May of 1993, you

8 were in charge of the warehouse which is located in the forest; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes, that's right, up until mid-May 1993.

11 Q. And in mid-May of 1993, where did your office -- where did you

12 move to?

13 A. I was deputy assistant head, and the head was Mr. Jelavic.

14 Q. And so my question is: Physically, where was your office

15 located?

16 A. My office was at Zenicka Street. I had a room that I was using

17 there, an office. But as I said before, when I moved and started working

18 as Jelavic's deputy, I was mostly involved in construction, rebuilding,

19 and everything else that we needed. Later, we started rebuilding roads.

20 So after this date, that was what my involvement was about and continued

21 to be about, just that, until the day I retired.

22 Q. And in your office on that street, is that -- is that the same

23 building where Mr. Jelavic had his office as well?

24 A. Yes, the same building.

25 Q. And was he on your same floor?