Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37890

 1                           Wednesday, 11 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic not present]

 5                           [The Accused Coric not present]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 8     the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, everyone in and around the

10     courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

12     et al.

13             Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

15             Today is Wednesday, the 11th of March, 2009.  I'd like to greet

16     all the accused who are sitting in this courtroom, the attorneys, Defence

17     counsel, representatives of the OTP, as well as all the people assisting

18     us in this courtroom.

19             As you know, we will hear one witness and then another witness.

20     Hamid Bahto is the first witness.  The Defence has said that it would

21     need 30 minutes.  The Trial Chamber, therefore, allocates 15 minutes for

22     the cross-examination of the other Defence counsel and allocates

23     30 minutes for the cross-examination of the OTP.

24             As far as the second witness is concerned, the Defence has

25     stipulated that it would need 45 minutes.  Therefore, the Trial Chamber

Page 37891

 1     grants the other Defence counsel 23 minutes and the OTP 45 minutes.

 2             Let's bring the witness into the courtroom now.

 3             Registrar, I think you have four IC numbers to give us.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 5             The Prosecution has submitted its objections to documents

 6     tendered by 2D and 4D through witness Dragan Pinjuh.  These objections

 7     shall be given Exhibit IC943 and 944, respectively.  Two parties have

 8     submitted lists of documents to be tendered through witness Majic,

 9     Tihomir.  The list submitted by 2D shall be given Exhibit IC945.  And the

10     list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given Exhibit IC946.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

14             Can you state your first name, last name, and date of birth,

15     please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Hamid Bahto.  I was born

17     on the 3rd of January, 1961, Rogatica municipality, Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, are you currently occupied

20     [as interpreted] and do you have a job?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired at present.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been retired from the

23     army?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  I was a general of

25     the BH Army and retired in 2005.

Page 37892

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, have you already

 2     testified in a trial on those events that unfolded in the former

 3     Yugoslavia or is it the first time you come to testify today?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the first time that I'm

 5     testifying about the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like you to take the

 7     oath and read the text of the solemn declaration which the usher will

 8     show you now.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  HAMID BAHTO

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, some brief

16     information.

17             As Ms. Nozica has told you, you will be asked to answer a number

18     of questions, and you will have a look at a number of documents.  I

19     believe there are six documents which she will show you.  After that, the

20     Defence counsel of the other accused, since Ms. Nozica represents

21     Mr. Stojic, may also put questions to you as part of their

22     cross-examination, after which the OTP, sitting on your right-hand side,

23     will also put questions to you and will have the same time as Ms. Nozica.

24     The four Judges that form the Bench may also step in at any time and put

25     you some questions.

Page 37893

 1             Please try and be as accurate as you possibly can when you

 2     answer.  If you don't understand the meaning of a sentence, please ask

 3     the person who put it to you to rephrase it.

 4             We have a break every hour and a half.  If you have a problem at

 5     any stage, please let us know, and then we will adjourn and you can have

 6     a rest.

 7             This is what I wanted to tell you to make sure that your

 8     testimony runs as smoothly as possible.

 9             Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, and good afternoon

12     to you, too, Witness.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm going to read out briefly some important

16     points concerning your CV, and you'll just tell me if what I'm reading

17     out is correct.

18             You graduated from the Faculty of Political Sciences in 1985 in

19     Sarajevo.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In 1991, you were appointed commander of the TO, that is to say,

22     the Territorial Defence?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Maybe it would be better if I were to read the CV out, and then

25     at the end you can tell me whether I've read it out correctly.

Page 37894

 1             So you were appointed TO commander of the Civilian Protection

 2     Staff, and a professional associate to train civilian structures in the

 3     Stari Grad municipality of Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   On the 6th of April, 1992, you became commander of the

 6     Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence of Stari Grad municipality,

 7     Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And from that time until the end of the war, you performed

10     various duties within the BH Army.  In 2005, you retired, and you have

11     the rank of general of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that

12     information correct?

13        A.   Yes, the information is completely correct.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Bahto, I know from the proofing session, and since we've

15     known each other for quite some time, I know that you tend to answer and

16     speak quickly, but because everything I say and all your answers have to

17     be recorded in the transcript, I'd like to ask you to make brief pauses

18     between my question and your answer.

19             Mr. Bahto, what assignments did you have at the beginning of

20     1992, because we have seen that at the time or, rather, as of April, you

21     were the commander of the Municipal Staff of the TO of Sarajevo, so I'm

22     asking you now what were your first tasks and assignments?

23        A.   At the time, I was working in the Municipal Assembly of

24     Stari Grad, Sarajevo.  I worked in the Secretariat for National Defence,

25     and I was commander of the Staff for Civilian Protection, and I worked

Page 37895

 1     with the training of civilians in the defence area.  So in keeping with

 2     that role of mine, I had the task of, from 1991 to the beginning of 1992,

 3     as commander of the Civilian Protection Staff, preparing all the shelters

 4     and civilian defence units, special-purpose units, units for special

 5     purposes within the Civilian Defence Sector, to activate the NUS, and to

 6     prepare all the staffs and the population in general for the burgeoning

 7     aggression which at that time was already being exerted against the

 8     Republic of Slovenia and the Republic of Croatia.  And that role of mine

 9     I performed right up until the 6th of April, when I was appointed

10     commander of the Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence.

11             And in the meantime, while I was performing the work of

12     commander, I was also a member of the Crisis Staff of the

13     Municipal Assembly of Stari Grad municipality, which, establishment-wise,

14     is a duty that I would do by virtue of my position, and automatically I

15     would become a member of the Crisis Staff engaged in preparations to

16     stand up to the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Let's clarify matters first.  You said the aggression started in

18     Slovenia and Croatia before.  Aggression from whom?

19        A.   From the Yugoslav People's Army and the vestiges of the former

20     Yugoslavia or, rather, the Republics of Serbia and Montenegro, which were

21     a component part of the rump Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslav People's Army

22     which was under their command.  That means the Yugoslav People's Army had

23     launched an aggression against the then Republic of Slovenia and Croatia,

24     and at that time, I have to clarify here, an aggression had been

25     launched, in part, against Bosnia and Herzegovina already in 1991, from

Page 37896

 1     the month of September.  The Army of Yugoslavia used the sovereign

 2     territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina to attack Croatia, the village of

 3     Ravno, Brcko, and so on.  They'd already entered that territory and taken

 4     control of it.

 5        Q.   Tell me, please, what was the task of this Crisis Staff of yours

 6     of Stari Grad municipality?  What was one of its prime tasks?

 7        A.   One of its prime tasks was to prepare ourselves; to prepare for

 8     the mobilisation of the Civilian Protection units and Territorial Defence

 9     units, to replenish the numbers, to have the necessary shelters where

10     people could take refuge, and to start forming the units themselves,

11     units for defence, that is, and to start arming those units and the

12     crisis staffs that would set them up.

13        Q.   Tell me, please, did you take part directly in the procurement of

14     weapons, as the president of the Crisis Staff?  Did you take part in any

15     activities like that?

16        A.   Yes, I did.  I directly took part.  I wasn't the president of the

17     Crisis Staff, but I was a member of the Crisis Staff, because,

18     ex officio, the mayor was the president of the Crisis Staff, the

19     presidents of the municipalities, whereas the commander of the

20     Civilian Protection Staff and the minister of interior, ex officio, would

21     become members of the Crisis Staff.

22             Now, as to my own role --

23        Q.   A little slower, please.  Yes, thank you.

24        A.   I apologise.  As I was saying, it was my task to establish the

25     units and to try and find the equipment and weapons that those units

Page 37897

 1     needed in order to defend themselves and the population.

 2        Q.   Could you explain to the Trial Chamber whether during that time,

 3     and we're talking about the beginning of 1992, any weapons existed in the

 4     Crisis Staff?  Did the crisis staffs have weapons?

 5        A.   At the beginning of 1991 and 1992, the Republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina did not have any weaponry, either in the crisis staffs or in

 7     the local communes or in the units, because this is what happened:  In

 8     1989 and 1990, orders were issued by the Yugoslav Army and the

 9     General Staff of the JNA to withdraw all the weapons under the

10     Territorial Defence and to place them in barracks for safekeeping.  These

11     orders were carried out up until 1991.  Sometime in December -- or

12     November or December of 1990, the Territorial Defence of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina handed over all their weapons to the JNA for storage,

14     so that the weapons were seized from the socio-political organisations,

15     working units, the Territorial Defence staffs, and all the commands under

16     the Staff Command.  So all the weaponry was taken and placed under the

17     command of the JNA, so that Bosnia and Herzegovina was completely

18     disarmed by the JNA.

19        Q.   And what about the principal tasks, your principal task in

20     procuring weapons for the units and organs preparing for defence?

21        A.   Well, the main task was to establish contacts with higher levels

22     of power and authority, that is to say, with the state organs, so that

23     they could try, for their part, to procure weapons for our requirements.

24     The only way -- the only possible way at that time for procuring weapons

25     was to go through the Republic of Croatia and Slovenia, and the

Page 37898

 1     Municipal Crisis Staff at the time or, rather, the presidents and their

 2     members, wielded their influence on the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 3     to set up contacts with those two republics in order to procure weapons

 4     through them, because it was quite obvious that there were conflicts

 5     going on and that there was an aggression being prepared, and we had to

 6     act quickly.  And we managed to come into contact with our people and

 7     with the Croats and Slovenes and started to procure weapons and arm those

 8     units of ours which we had already established by that time.

 9        Q.   Tell me, please, you specifically, did you take part in any

10     operations or activities linked to procuring weapons for your

11     Crisis Staff?  And if so, could you explain to the Trial Chamber how you

12     did that?

13        A.   I did take part, on several occasions, in activities geared

14     towards procuring weapons for the units that I was in command of or,

15     rather, the units that I established and trained and equipped and armed.

16     And sometime at the beginning of 1992, I came into contact with our

17     authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Sarajevo, and I intervened to

18     persuade them to procure a large quantity of weapons for the Stari Grad

19     municipality, because we were in the forefront of the enemy attack.

20     That's where we were most vulnerable.

21             I apologise for speaking so quickly once again.

22             So as we were at the forefront of the attack, the axis of attack,

23     I insisted, with the authorities, that they procure weapons as soon as

24     possible.  And after some time had passed, we did indeed receive

25     permission to take over a quantity of weapons, and I was given the

Page 37899

 1     specific task of going to Grude, to report there to Tihomir Majic, and

 2     from him to take over a quantity of infantry weapons, ammunition and

 3     other MTS or materiel and technical equipment.

 4        Q.   Mr. Bahto, do you know how and with whom -- or, rather, who it

 5     was in the political sphere that saw to the procurement of weapons and

 6     made the decision?

 7        A.   Well, our political leaders, which was the SDA party, in fact,

 8     and the HDZ party, so those two parties, our representatives -- top

 9     representatives in those parties agreed with the HDZ party that we should

10     go ahead with arming ourselves, that is to say, between the Muslim and

11     the Croatian people, and they set up contacts -- established contacts

12     with the Republic of Slovenia and took a large quantity -- or, rather,

13     they came into contact with the president of the Republic of Croatia and

14     the president of Slovenia.  They reached an agreement, and important

15     quantities of weapons and MTS reached Grude, and from there it was

16     transported throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   So we're now talking about the weapons that were procured in

18     February 1992, right, and you say that an agreement had been made between

19     the leaders of the Muslim people and the Croatian people in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina to procure the weapons.  Now, can you tell us

21     specifically who and in what way purchased the arms?  Who was in charge

22     of actually purchasing the weapons and doing that -- seeing to that

23     technical side of the whole issue?

24        A.   The technical side was done by the representatives of our

25     authorities; President Izetbegovic, in fact, our president.  President

Page 37900

 1     Izetbegovic reached an agreement with Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Kucan, I

 2     believe it was, and the HDZ, and they said that they would procure MTS to

 3     be transported to Croatia, and then from Croatia into Bosnia, because at

 4     that time Bosnia had already been cut off, blocked.  It was in a sort of

 5     isolation, so you couldn't have the weapons transported directly to

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It went to Western Herzegovina first and then to

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.

 8        Q.   Just a moment.  I apologise for interrupting, but who bought the

 9     weapons?  Was it -- do you know who the weapons were bought from and who

10     the purchaser was?

11        A.   Well, the weapons were purchased from the MUP of the Republic of

12     Slovenia, and it was people from the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

13     Croatia who were in charge of seeing to the transport of the weapons and

14     to having the weapons procured, distributed to the Muslim people.

15        Q.   Do you know who, in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was in charge

16     of that technical side of the business?

17        A.   Well, on behalf of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was

18     Mr. Alija Delimustafic who was given the task of implementing this with

19     Mr. Bruno Stojic, also from the MUP.  The two of them were -- well,

20     Alija Delimustafic and Bruno Stojic, they were in charge, and before

21     that, our representatives agreed all this with Boban.  So Boban was the

22     person who assigned the task to Bruno, and our president gave the

23     assignment to Alija Delimustafic, and they went ahead and put that into

24     practice.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Now, could the witness be given my

Page 37901

 1     binder so that we can look at the documents testifying to what the

 2     witness has just been talking about.

 3        Q.   I'd like you now to take a look at the first document in that

 4     binder.  It is 2D1253.

 5        A.   That's a receipt, is it?

 6        Q.   Just slowly.  Let's have it put up on e-court first so that we

 7     can see it all on our screens.  I'm going to ask you, Mr. Bahto, if you

 8     can explain, using this first example, of whether that is the receipt for

 9     the weapons that you've been talking to us about.

10        A.   Yes, that is the MTS that I took delivery of from Tihomir Majic

11     at that time, and he was down there in the warehouse in Grude.  When I

12     arrived, I took delivery of 1.000 automatic rifles, Kalashnikov, 7.62,

13     39 rounds, and the ammunition.  On the receipt here -- well, actually, I

14     took over -- I took delivery of some more materiel and technical

15     equipment, but they're not included on this receipt, and I was told to

16     send them to Eastern Bosnia, to Foca, and to hand them over to the

17     authorities in Foca.

18        Q.   Tell me, please, it says down there at the bottom -- you say you

19     were in the Crisis Staff of Stari Grad.  Here, you have your ID number,

20     and it says "Novi Grad."  So why does it say "Novi Grad" there?

21        A.   It says "Bahto, Hamid."  This is my ID card number, 7582/89.  At

22     the time, I lived in Novi Grad municipality, Alipasino Polje, and worked

23     in the municipality of Stari Grad, so your ID card had the municipality

24     where you were residing, and that's why it says "Novi Grad."

25        Q.   All right.  Now, tell me, at that point in time, were these

Page 37902

 1     significant quantities of weaponry?

 2        A.   Yes, certainly, very significant, and the defence of Sarajevo,

 3     Stari Grad and the broader region around it depended on these quantities.

 4     And this is the first quantity of weaponry brought into Sarajevo at that

 5     time.

 6        Q.   Now, would you look at the next receipts that you have in this

 7     document, 114 --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, one short question.

 9     I'm listening to you very carefully, and everything that you are saying

10     is being recorded.

11             You said you brought MTS to Foca.  Unfortunately, I don't have

12     the map in front of me.  If I had, I could have put a more specific

13     question to you.  When you brought the weapons to Foca, for which unit of

14     the ABiH were they designed for?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was intended for the defenders

16     of Foca at that time, and they were organised groups at the time.  We're

17     talking about 1992.  It was the Territorial Defence of Foca, just before

18     the war broke out.  And Foca is in the eastern part of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina, bordering on Montenegro.

20             MS. NOZICA:  [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at the map.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Yes, you can continue.  The Judge asked you where Foca is, so you

24     can continue there.

25        A.   The Foca municipality is located in Eastern Bosnia, about

Page 37903

 1     72 kilometres away from Sarajevo, east of Sarajevo 72 kilometres.  It is

 2     one of the largest municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, and I was given the

 3     task, since it lies on the very border with Montenegro and Serbia, to

 4     have those -- that technical equipment sent there, because that's where

 5     the attack would come, the attack against sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have the map in front of us.

 7     Please indicate where Foca is with your pen.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll just mark the border with

11     Montenegro [indicates].

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If I have

13     understood correctly, the weapons you bring to Foca, which you pick up in

14     Grude, are not designed for the Posavina, and are not designed for

15     Sarajevo either, but are to be delivered to Foca.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honours,

17     Eastern Bosnia.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All right.  The witness's answer is

19     appearing on the screen now.

20             Can we just keep the map where it is.  The usher need not stick

21     around.  We'll be getting to other locations that the witness will

22     explain at a later stage.

23        Q.   Mr. Bahto, could you please now look at the following receipts,

24     and briefly explain to the Trial Chamber who Ramo Calsevic [phoen] is?

25     Ramo Calsevic, all of these receipts, can you please explain if all this

Page 37904

 1     was for the defence of the Muslims, because at this point in time there

 2     was no BH Army, was there?

 3        A.   Talking of Calsevic, Ramo, the Brcko SUP, this was something for

 4     the BH Army.  At the time, Croats were also a part of the army.  The

 5     Muslims and Croats were together, but the majority population was Muslim.

 6     The same thing goes for Kupres.  All of this is MTS for the BH Army.

 7             At the time, it was not the BH Army, it was the crisis staffs and

 8     the Territorial Defence.  The Army came into existence later, and the TO

 9     became the Army.  That's when talking about defence, in the generic sense

10     now.

11             The next receipt, Hasim Hodzic, Travnik SDA, the same thing

12     applies; this is for the Muslims and for the Croats in the Central Bosnia

13     canton.

14             Again, the Rifat Burovic receipt, the MTS arrived.  It was there.

15     It was received by the BH Army.  And the same thing applies to all the

16     other receipts that I can see here up to Bugojno.  Dzevad Mlaco, he also

17     took delivery of the MTS that arrived in Travnik.

18        Q.   I'm sorry to be hurrying things along, but we do have a number of

19     other documents to explain.

20             Can you tell me, please, whether you know that all these other

21     persons arrived in Grude the same way as you?  They had been invited to

22     go there and take delivery of the weapons; right?

23        A.   Yes, the same way as I did.  They received at the headquarters,

24     the SDA headquarters over there, a mission, where to go, when to go, and

25     to get the weapons, so it was the same way in which I got there.  They

Page 37905

 1     got the name of a person.  They got the name of a place that they were

 2     supposed to go to in order to take delivery of the weapons that had

 3     arrived at Grude.

 4        Q.   Fine, thank you.  Can we now please go to the next document,

 5     2D00955.  It's document number 2 in the binder.  We see here we're

 6     talking about the 29th of April, 1992.  We see that the weapons were

 7     received by Enver Backovic.  Just very briefly, please, can you explain

 8     to the Chamber if you know this person, and was this person, too,

 9     involved in supplying weapons to the BH Army for defence purposes?

10        A.   Talking of Enver Backovic, Enver Backovic is a professor; he has

11     a Ph.D. in economics.  He works at the Sarajevo Faculty.  He joined the

12     same time as I, before the war in the preparations for defending from the

13     aggression.  He was with a number of friends.  His brother, Enver, Zagi,

14     who is even more famous than he was, Dr. Rucarevic, they set up certain

15     units that got their weapons in the same way that we did, members of the

16     Territorial Defence.

17        Q.   Can we move on to the next document, 3D00437.  Have you got it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'll ask you a number of questions about this one.  The last

20     witness to appear here was asked the same questions.  It says here that

21     on the 16th of October -- actually, this is an order from 1992, talking

22     about MTS being distributed to the BH Army and the HVO in Gorazde, Foca,

23     Trnovo, and Visegrad.  My first question would be:  Were you familiar

24     with the situation in 1992 in this area, what units were there?  I'm

25     talking about the 16th of October, 1992.

Page 37906

 1        A.   I was well aware of the situation in these areas.  This is in

 2     Eastern Bosnia.  I'm a native of the area.  I know by heart each of these

 3     towns and villages.  Of course, we were more than well aware of the

 4     situation in the area.  Most of my family were still in the area.  I was

 5     dispatching weapons to these areas as well, the weapons that I was

 6     receiving in Grude.

 7        Q.   My question is:  Do you know of any HVO units existing in

 8     Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo, and Visegrad at the time?

 9        A.   At the time, and generally speaking throughout the war, there

10     were no Croats in Eastern Bosnia.  Therefore, there were no Croatian

11     units there, with one exception.  There was a Croatian unit that was not

12     part of the HVO, but part of the HOS, H-O-S, and that unit was in

13     Gorazde.

14        Q.   The HOS unit, H-O-S, was under the command of the BH Army, right?

15        A.   Yes, it was under the command of the commander of the East Bosnia

16     Operations Group.

17        Q.   Mr. Bahto, another question in relation to this document.  Do you

18     know Senad Hasimbakic [as interpreted]?  His name is handwritten on this

19     document.

20        A.   Yes, I know Senad Sahinpasic.  I know him well.  We're friends

21     and neighbours.  This is a man who used a Croatian connection to supply

22     weapons and equipment to the BH Army units in Eastern Bosnia.

23        Q.   We don't have the family name on the transcript, but we'll deal

24     with that later.

25             Now 3D436.  Can you please just confirm -- the date is the

Page 37907

 1     10th of October, 1992.  Briefly, please, do you know if these weapons,

 2     too, were used for the purposes of Foca and Gorazde, I mean, the BH Army?

 3     3D436.  Have you got that?

 4        A.   Yes, 43 --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the speakers please not overlap.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These units from Eastern Bosnia

 8     that at the time were called the Eastern Bosnia Operations Group, had a

 9     logistics HQ near Sarajevo called Grebak.  All the material on equipment

10     that came through Croatia and through Grude, whether from Metkovic or

11     from Grude, would normally reach the Grebak base.  Then one would carry

12     this on to Gorazde, over a distance of 50 kilometres, on horseback, or

13     they would just walk there with the equipment.  All of the MTS and

14     equipment would arrive at this base, and from there people would walk,

15     carry the equipment and weapons on their backs, to Gorazde.

16             Just in order to explain, to make this perfectly clear, Gorazde

17     was among these municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, Rogatica, Visegrad,

18     Rudo, Cajnice, Gorazde, Foca, and Pale Praca.  These were municipalities

19     that were under the command of the commander of the East Bosnia

20     Operations Group.  They were sealed off from the rest of the front-line.

21     They were isolated.  The only way to get supplies through to them was to

22     actually walk there from the Grebak base and physically carry the

23     supplies there.

24        Q.   Can we now please get on with the other two documents.  The next

25     two documents would be the following:  2D311.  We see MTS being issued

Page 37908

 1     here to the BH Army through the Grude Logistics Base.

 2             The next document, please, 2D -- or, rather, I'm sorry, 3D008,

 3     3D008.  Are you familiar with the name of Seta Suajb?  That's what's

 4     written here.  Who is that person mentioned in both of these documents?

 5        A.   Seta Suajb, his real name is Suajb, he's a high-ranking officer

 6     of the BH Army.  He is now serving with the BH Army.  At the time, he was

 7     a logistics officer at the Zagreb base.  His mission there was to

 8     dispatch supplies to the BH Army units, in terms of weapons and

 9     equipment, of course, from Zagreb.

10        Q.   Fine.  Can you tell me this:  If these weapons, as these two

11     documents state, were dispatched to the armed forces of the BH Army, can

12     you in that case explain to the Chamber what the Logistics Base at Visoko

13     was exactly?  Was that a central logistics base from which supplies were

14     dispatched for the whole BH Army?

15        A.   Talking about the Visoko base, its name was GLOC, Main Logistics

16     Centre of the BH Army, that's what the abbreviation stood for.  The task

17     of that base was to make sure supplies were available for all the BH Army

18     units, in terms of materiel, in terms of equipment, weapons.

19        Q.   Can you tell us where Visoko is?  And then you can explain to the

20     Chamber, by using the map that you have there.

21        A.   Visoko is right next to Sarajevo [indicates].  Visoko is a

22     municipality near Sarajevo, the distance between the two being

23     28 kilometres, to the north-west.

24        Q.   What about the Visoko area?  Were there any HVO forces nearby,

25     and did the HVO units get any supplies whatsoever from this base?

Page 37909

 1        A.   In the vicinity of Visoko or -- rather, the Visoko municipality

 2     borders on predominantly Croat municipalities, such as Kiseljak and all

 3     the other ones.  I can't say specifically, but I don't think the HVO

 4     units got any supplies from that base, at least not as far as I know.

 5     There is a possibility, however, that they did get supplies from there.

 6        Q.   Finally, Mr. Bahto, to the best of your knowledge, did the

 7     BH Army get supplies throughout the war either from Croatia, through

 8     HZ-HB territory, or directly from Croatia?  Could the BH Army get any

 9     supplies in any other way from other territories?

10        A.   The BH Army got their supplies in the following way:  They could

11     either, directly or indirectly, get supplies from the territory of the

12     Republic of Croatia, and that's what happened.  They got their supplies

13     directly from the Republic of Croatia, the 5th Corps, over in the Krajina

14     area, and indirectly the Logistics Base in Visoko, through all the

15     municipalities that were under the control of the Croats, the HVO,

16     meaning directly or across territories under the control of the HVO.  Our

17     units, they got their weapons, their food, their ammunition, and all the

18     other supplies from there.  All the MTS, weapons, equipment, and other

19     such items, had to come from Croatia across Croat-held territories in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's how they got to the Central Logistics

21     Base.

22             There is something else that I have to mention here.  The

23     territories under the control of the BH Army could not all get their

24     supplies from the Logistics Base, the Main Logistics Base.  Therefore,

25     the Eastern Bosnia Operations Group had to get their supplies directly

Page 37910

 1     through Grude, Grebak and Gorazde; whereas the units under the 1st Corps,

 2     the 2nd Corps, the 3rd Corps, and the 4th Corps got their supplies

 3     through Western Herzegovina, through Grude, and then on to Metkovic,

 4     further south, and then across Kiseljak, Visoko, Kakanj, Vares, what do I

 5     know, through Tuzla, Zenica, and that's how they, I mean, got their, I

 6     mean, supply, I mean, the BH Army units.  I mean, it all had to go

 7     through Zagreb.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much,

 9     Mr. Bahto.  I think my time is up.  This was examination-in-chief.  Thank

10     you for all your answers, sir.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I have two short

13     questions for you following the examination-in-chief, but these are

14     accessory questions.

15             You were a member of the ABiH, weren't you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The accused here in

18     the dock, those two generals among them, were they enemies to you?  What

19     did they represent, on the ground, in 1993 or 1992?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I mean, the leadership -- I

21     mean, the top leadership of the HDZ and their top-most leaders at the

22     time, I didn't, I mean, imagine that -- I couldn't possibly imagine that

23     we were enemies, that we were facing off in this conflict, the reason

24     being, I mean, the MTS during the war, all of them, I mean, I got through

25     them.  So they had to be -- there had to be some sort of consent on their

Page 37911

 1     part for them to supply all these to us.

 2             However, your question is a double-edged sword.  There were

 3     clashes between the BH Army and the HVO.  I wasn't directly involved in

 4     that.  I was, I mean, facing, I mean, the Serbs, or, rather, the Army of

 5     Yugoslavia.  My area of responsibility was Romanija, Eastern Bosnia, and,

 6     I mean, all the way up to Foca.  There were, I mean, units of the former

 7     Yugoslav Army there and the Army of Republika Srpska.  And, I mean, when

 8     I was transferred to the General Staff, I mean, I had contacts with

 9     members of the HVO, and at the time while I was there we had contacts

10     with them.  We cooperated, we made agreements, and we used each other's

11     help about getting weapons, about preparing for combat, about

12     reconnaissance.

13             Nevertheless, the local commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina from the

14     HVO, for whatever reasons, triggered these clashes.  It was all partial

15     and only local.  It wasn't throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina; some areas,

16     yes, and some areas, no, in terms of hostile atmosphere.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've already answered the

18     next question I was about to ask you.

19             We know that there was a whole series of conflicts between the

20     ABiH and the HVO.  No need to repeat them, because everybody is aware of

21     them.  We understood that you were mainly focused on the Serbs.  However,

22     at your level then, you left the army being a general, regarding the

23     conflicts between the ABiH and the HVO, I understood, and you repeated

24     it, that these were conflicts between local commanders; is that what you

25     said earlier on?

Page 37912

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how it was.  They were

 2     conflicts between local commanders.  For example, the 4th Operative Zone

 3     of Orasje, the 2nd Corps, they were all joint units, the HVO and the

 4     BH Army together, the 107th Brigade, and then Gradacac, numbering

 5     1200 men.  Throughout the war, they fought together.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may not be able to answer

 7     my following question.  When the ABiH attacked the HVO in Bugojno, in

 8     Vares, were they local conflicts, according to you, or were they

 9     conflicts of a different scale or scope?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were conflicts of a

11     local character.  Vares is a small municipality, you see, which at the

12     time was insignificant.  Now, why a conflict broke out there, I was never

13     quite clear on that, but it was a local conflict.  It wasn't an all-out

14     conflict in Posavina, Bihac, or anything like that, or down in

15     Herzegovina, or around Sarajevo; just in those two municipalities, those

16     two areas, those two areas of responsibility.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last question.  Your answers

18     express your point of view, or is that also the view shared by all of the

19     officers in the ABiH; for instance, by General Delic, or by

20     General Halilovic?  What you have just said, is that your personal point

21     of view or is that a general feeling you've just expressed?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, well, it's my opinion, and

23     I think that the majority of the BH Army leadership shared that view.

24     They were all local conflicts.  During one period of time, the initial

25     period of the war, we were together, the end of the war together, so

Page 37913

 1     except for the middle in 1993 and 1994.  Otherwise, all local.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you are the next

 3     one.

 4             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, my client, General Praljak, would like

 5     to ask two or three direct questions, if you would permit.  Certainly, he

 6     would understand that those are limited questions --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are these questions of military

 8     nature, Mr. Praljak?

 9             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

10     Your Honours.  Good afternoon, General.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] For us to be able to understand this question

14     around Eastern Bosnia, Foca, Gorazde and so on, tell the Judges what

15     happened in the area to the Muslim population in World War II?  From the

16     aspects of the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, why was it important to

17     send --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, what is the

19     relevance of events that took place 50 years earlier?  That's the

20     question that the Trial Chamber has in mind.

21             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Highly relevant,

22     Your Honour, and people remember.  There is something that we refer to as

23     the people's memory, and that influences where the weapons were sent and

24     what the people remember, what the state of their soul was like.  So the

25     General, who's from the area, can tell us the people's state of mind and

Page 37914

 1     also tell us what happened 45 years previously.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ask your questions.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can answer.  Can I?

 4             General Praljak asked a very good question, and it is cause and

 5     effect, mutually linked.

 6             In 1941 or, rather, between 1941 and 1945 -- or, rather, in 1941,

 7     the overall Muslim population were slaughtered, everything higher than

 8     the height of a rifle, for example, by the Chetniks.  They slaughtered

 9     them all.  The Chetniks were the Serbs and Montenegrins, so I say the

10     people of Serbia-Montenegro and their army, the then Chetnik Army,

11     entered Eastern Bosnia and slaughtered everyone who was taller than a

12     rifle.  And in one day, 84 of my family members were slaughtered.  And

13     the village itself has 300 households, so you can imagine what that was,

14     and the people remember that very well.  And this is one of the causes of

15     what happened later on.  It is cause and effect, and it's been going on

16     for hundreds of years.  The Serbs are constantly carrying out genocide

17     against the Muslim people, especially in Eastern Bosnia, because

18     everything has to -- if you -- all the armies have to cross at the

19     Drina River.  In order to attack Croatia and Bosnia, they have to go

20     through Eastern Bosnia, and that's the crux of the problem.  That is why

21     we placed the emphasis on supplying Eastern Bosnia with weapons.

22             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, for

23     your answer.  Thank you, Your Honours.  I do believe I have clarified

24     issues somewhat.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 4D, do you have any questions?

Page 37915

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

 2     General Petkovic has no questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 3             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No questions,

 4     Your Honour.  Thank you.  Thank you to the witness.

 5             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr President.

 6     Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, 1D.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9     Mr. President.  Good afternoon to Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             We have no questions for the gentleman, but we do wish to thank

12     him for coming here and giving his evidence.  Thank you very much, sir.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

14             Mr. Prosecutor, your cross-examination now.

15             MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will have some questions.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness kindly be asked to slow down

17     when he answers.  Thank you.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bos:

19        Q.   Witness, good afternoon.  I don't know if --

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   -- the interpreters were asking whether you could slow down in

22     giving your answers, because they will have to interpret everything, and

23     if you speak very fast it's difficult for them to interpret.  So if you

24     could listen carefully to my questions and answer slowly, please.

25             General, you were asked a number of questions by the Defence of

Page 37916

 1     weapon supplies for the BH Army which went through the Logistical Centre

 2     in Grude and which were destined for places such as Sarajevo, Foca,

 3     Gorazde, Trnovo, and Visegrad.  And you were reviewed two orders from the

 4     Croatian assistant minister of the defence, Mr. Ivan Cermak, dated the

 5     10th and the 16th of October, 1992, in which weapons were -- and

 6     ammunition were put at the disposal of the BiH army in the regions of

 7     Foca, Gorazde, Trnovo, and Visegrad.  Do you remember that evidence?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Sir, is it correct that these weapons and material for these

10     regions were all intended for the war of the ABiH-HVO alliance against

11     the common enemy, the Serbs?

12        A.   Yes, that MTS was intended for the Eastern Bosnia

13     Operative Group, and from Grude they came in via Mostar, Jablanica,

14     Konjic, and Mount Igman and Trnovo, to the Logistics Base at Grebak, and

15     that base is about some 30 to 40 kilometres away from Sarajevo, under

16     Mount Jahorina.  And from thence, the people -- 5.000 people during the

17     night would take one or two rifles, 200 or 300 rounds of ammunition, so

18     that the Eastern Bosnia Operative Group could be armed.  And that base

19     survived --

20        Q.   Listen carefully to the questions.  A lot of my questions can

21     just be answered by "yes" or "no," and I have a limited amount of time, I

22     only have half an hour.  So I would ask you simply if a question can be

23     answered by "yes" or "no," that you would answer it that way.

24             Is it correct that these weapons were used for fighting the

25     VRS Army, the Serbs, this MTS and the weapons that came from Grude?

Page 37917

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, you also reviewed two other orders which came from the

 3     Ministry of Defence from the Republic of Croatia for the distribution of

 4     MTS for the BiH forces in Sarajevo in March 1993.  Those are documents

 5     2D00311 and 2D008 -- no, 3D0008.  Sir, is it correct that these materials

 6     and resources from Croatia were also intended for the defence of Sarajevo

 7     and the city of Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but, Your Honours, I

10     would like the Prosecutor to allow the witness to take a look at the

11     documents, because I think that that is not what the documents say.  So

12     it would be in order if the Prosecutor were to show the documents.  It

13     doesn't say "for the defence of the city of Sarajevo" there, it says "for

14     the BH Army," so I don't think that the witness can answer fully unless

15     he is allowed to view the documents.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to answer,

17     Mr. President?

18             MR. BOS:

19        Q.   Well, Witness, you reviewed the evidence just a while ago.  Can

20     you tell us, what were -- for what purpose were these weapons procured?

21        A.   I had another document in front of me, but let me answer.

22             All the documents that I looked through, and what it says in

23     those documents, the MTS which was sent through the Logistics Base at

24     Zagreb, or Grude, or down there from Ploce, were given to the BH Army for

25     them to fight the Serbs, and they were used for that purpose.  Everything

Page 37918

 1     that arrived in Gorazde was used against the Serbs, because there weren't

 2     any HVO units for us to fight against the Croats or anybody else.  The

 3     only people we were fighting against was the Serbs.  And the same thing

 4     applies to Sarajevo.  In Sarajevo itself, I was in command of part of the

 5     defence of Sarajevo, the old part, that is to say, the Stari Grad

 6     municipality, where I worked, and we were directly facing the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska that set up a siege, and of course the weapons were used

 8     against the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Thank you, General.  That answers my question.  Let's move on to

10     another topic, and you can leave the document.

11             Sir, is it correct that around -- around the autumn of 1992, that

12     tensions started to surface between the Croats and the Muslims in regions

13     such as Central Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14        A.   At that time, I was in Sarajevo myself.  I was the commander of

15     the units over there, those four brigades that were in my area of

16     responsibility, so that I was engaged in that part, as far as defence is

17     concerned.  I was not in the General Staff, and I did not know what was

18     happening in other areas of the theatre.  But according to the

19     information that reached me, I know that there were certain tensions and

20     that relations were strained.  But regardless of that, throughout the

21     time we did have weapons coming in to us from Croatia.

22        Q.   So -- but you said you learned from information that certain

23     tensions arose between these groups, and did you learn about incidents

24     that occurred in, for example, Novi Travnik and in Prozor in 1992, and

25     later on in January 1992 in Gornji Vakuf; did you learn about these

Page 37919

 1     incidents?

 2        A.   At the time, there was no information media in Sarajevo, no

 3     television, no newspapers.  We, the commanders, were informed from the

 4     General Staff.  That's where our information reached us, through the

 5     regular routes that the General Staff applies to BH units.  And, of

 6     course, every day we knew where the low-intensity conflicts took place

 7     along the defence lines.  So I knew about those in part.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to get back

 9     to the beginning, when the Prosecutor, Mr. Bos, put questions to you and

10     said to you that you were the commander of four brigades in Sarajevo.  In

11     line with all these questions which are very complex, I shall make the

12     following assumption:  If Croatia, via the HVO, had not provided you with

13     weapons in Sarajevo, what would have happened then?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, lots of things would have

15     happened.  Well, the whole defence of Sarajevo and the region around it

16     would have come into question, so you've posed a very good question, what

17     would have happened.  All sorts of things would have happened.  It would

18     be very debatable as to whether we could put up a defence at all or do

19     anything at all.  And it would be very difficult to defend Sarajevo

20     without the weapons that arrived through Croatia, because we didn't have

21     any weapons.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question.  If you had

23     not had these weapons, what would the Serbs have done?  The Serbs would

24     have taken control of Sarajevo or not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we didn't have those

Page 37920

 1     weapons, we wouldn't have been able to defend ourselves.  That's for

 2     sure, if there hadn't been any weapons.  So the key to the defence of

 3     Sarajevo was the 1.000 rifles I brought in from Tihomir Majic.  That was

 4     the first substantial quantity of weapons placed at the disposal of

 5     Sarajevo for its defence, and then through Rogatica, Gorazde, Visegrad,

 6     and Grude and so on, that route.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos.

 8             MR. BOS:  Just one follow-up question on what Judge Antonetti

 9     just asked you, General.

10        Q.   Is it correct, around that time in 1993, that there were still

11     30.000 Bosnian Croats living in Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes, that is right.  Whether it was 30.000 -- well, maybe more,

13     because Sarajevo was one of the largest cities of Croatians.  It was the

14     largest Serb town and Croatian town, in addition to the Muslims, and most

15     of the Croats stayed on in Sarajevo throughout the war.  They would leave

16     from time to time and come back unimpeded.  They would go to Croatia

17     unimpeded and come back.  And this went on during the whole war.

18        Q.   General, could I ask you to look at a document in the exhibit

19     binder that you have been given, and it's Exhibit P10879.

20             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, this is an article from the

21     "Boston Globe," dated the 23rd of November, 1992, and it contains an

22     interview with the HVO president, Mr. Mate Boban.

23        Q.   And do you have the exhibit in front of you?  It's P10879.

24        A.   Just the number again, please.

25        Q.   P10879.

Page 37921

 1             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, I think that at least the Prosecutor

 2     would try to establish first whether the witness was in the position to

 3     see that article while he was there.  There is no sense -- there is no

 4     any value in evidence if the witness will comment on US press at that

 5     time, since he was in Sarajevo, completely under blockade.

 6             And by the way, Your Honour, this is for us a new document.  We

 7     haven't saw it on Rule 65 list or anywhere else.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, why is this article

10     not on the 65 ter list?

11             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I don't think I need to put the exhibits

12     that I use in cross for a witness on a 65 ter list, and this -- and I

13     intend to use this exhibit to elicit from this witness how the

14     Bosnian Muslims viewed the situation in late 1992, early 1993, and in

15     particular the Muslims in Sarajevo.  That's the reason why I'm showing

16     this document, and I --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, let's not waste

18     time with needless objections.  It's quite clear that the witness has not

19     seen this article, but it might be interesting for everyone to see what

20     this article contains and whether this could be of any interest at all.

21             MR. KOVACIC:  Now, when the Prosecutor was responding, it appears

22     that he is offering a view of the Muslims, if I understood correctly.  It

23     is not the view of the Muslims in this article, it is other view.

24             MR. BOS:  No, I'm not --

25             MR. KOVACIC:  Okay, I'm sorry.

Page 37922

 1             MR. BOS:  Could I continue, Your Honour?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  Yes.

 3             MR. BOS:

 4        Q.   General, you have the article in front of you?  I'm going to --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the article, and I'm going

 7     to ask you a few questions about some of the paragraphs that are listed

 8     here in this article.

 9             Let me first direct your attention to the fifth paragraph of the

10     article, starting -- the article is an interview with Mr. Boban, who was

11     at the time in Grude, and the fifth article, let me read it out to you,

12     and I'll ask you a question about it.  The author here of the article

13     gives a description of Grude:

14             "There are no border posts, passport controls or customs when you

15     cross the border from Croatia, nor is the fleur-de-lis flag of the

16     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be seen.  It is the red checkered

17     Croatian flag that flies here and over most of the other towns under the

18     control of the Croatian Defence Council, as the Croatian Army in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina is called.  Some of the town names have been changed

20     to reflect Croatian names as well."

21             Now, sir, you were --

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Objection.  Excuse me.  This is not a quote.  This

23     is the author's --

24             MR. BOS:  That's exactly what I said, yes.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- viewpoint.  Hold on.  That's the viewpoint, so

Page 37923

 1     what -- so this is -- has nothing to do with Mr. Boban.  This is what a

 2     journalist saw at that period of time, and if exactly he saw it because

 3     we don't have this.

 4             Now, I object to this because we don't have this gentleman here.

 5     I further object to this -- to going into this evidence, because I

 6     understand there is this free evaluation of the evidence, but it seems

 7     that when the Defence tries to do that, we get shut down by the

 8     Trial Chamber.  So I would like equal treatment.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you know that

10     this document will not be tendered into evidence.  However, you are

11     right, this is the viewpoint of the journalist.  You're quite right.  But

12     what may be of interest to everyone is what Mr. Boban "may have said,"

13     quote/unquote.

14             Mr. Bos.

15             MR. BOS:  Well, Your Honours, just on this particular issue, the

16     witness went to Grude as well, although it was in an earlier time in

17     1992.

18        Q.   My question to the witness is this:  When you were in Grude, how

19     did you perceive the town of Grude?  Was it a completely

20     Croatian-controlled town, in the way it's been described here?

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I must -- perhaps the gentleman isn't

22     aware of the population makeup in Grude.  I think that's part of the --

23     that's part of the problem.

24             MR. BOS:  I'm just asking for the witness's impression --

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, it's like going to Greece and saying, "Did

Page 37924

 1     you find Greeks there?"  Of course you're going to find Greeks.  That's

 2     where you're going to find them.  Same thing in Grude.  You're going to

 3     find the population is there.  Who is -- who populates that area?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] However, the witness has been

 5     to Grude, and maybe he saw that there were no border posts, he saw that

 6     there were flags, he saw perhaps what the journalist saw.  Maybe he

 7     doesn't remember; maybe he does remember.

 8             Mr. Bos, ask him the question so that you can elicit what you

 9     want, if he remembers.

10             MR. BOS:

11        Q.   Well, answer the question.

12        A.   Yes, I remember, and how my recollection serves me well, thank

13     God.  I arrived in Grude.  That day at about midday, I arrived in this

14     town which at the time, as all the other towns, was free of soldiers.

15     There were no flags, no check-points.  I came there unhindered.  I wasn't

16     checked on the way or inspected.  I arrived in Grude municipality, and I

17     was told to report there.  I asked to speak to Mr. Tihomir Majic.  The

18     janitor said, He's over at the playground.  I went to the playground.

19     Tiho Majic, who is Tiho Majic, they told me who he was.  I came to get

20     this and that, and he got a couple of men from the playground to help me

21     carry this, because I had only arrived with two other men and two trucks

22     to help me load these items.  That's how it was.  It was all perfectly

23     open at the time.  There were no clashes going on, no restraints being

24     placed on us by the Croats.  I arrived the same way I would have in

25     Gorazde or Sarajevo or any other town at the time.

Page 37925

 1        Q.   Can you specify again when exactly you were in Grude, what day?

 2        A.   I arrived on the 26th of February, 1992, at about midday.

 3     Actually, I had made Grude at about 3.00.  It was after business hours of

 4     the town hall, and that's when I reached Grude.

 5        Q.   Let's move on a bit further in the article, the third paragraph

 6     after the paragraph that we've just looked at.  It discusses the

 7     referendum which was held also around that same time in February 1992.

 8     Do you recall the referendum being held in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992,

 9     General?  Just say "yes" or "no".  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let me read out this paragraph about the referendum.  This

12     is what the article says:

13             "The Croatian minority, however, voted with the Muslims for

14     independence for Yugoslavia, but Croatian acceptance of a new republic

15     and minority status in a unitary state does not mean that Croats in this

16     land plan to give up what they see as their rights to a separate and

17     distinct ethnic community.  At times, they have seemed on the verge of

18     setting up their own state too."

19             Sir, an impression -- what was your impression of the Croatian

20     Community at the time?  It says here that, you know, at the time they

21     seemed to be on the verge of setting up their own state.  Is that

22     something that you thought was also the case?

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may.  This time,

24     I would like to raise an objection.

25             This is about some statements made by my learned friend Mr. Bos

Page 37926

 1     suggesting that the Croats accepted the status of a minority in the state

 2     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This is simply not true.  We've been trying

 3     for three years here to prove that the Croats wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina

 4     to be structured as a state belonging to three constituent peoples on

 5     perfectly equal terms.  That is why I would like to ask my learned friend

 6     Mr. Bos to just purify his question and eliminate everything that might

 7     be open to challenge.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's on the transcript.

 9             Mr. Bos.

10             MR. BOS:

11        Q.   So based on your personal contacts with the Bosnian Croats in

12     1992, how would you comment on this statement that has been made here in

13     this article?

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [No interpretation]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This paragraph that --

16             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, no comments.

18             MR. SCOTT:  I apologise to my colleague Mr. Bos, but this is

19     entirely inappropriate, for Mr. Praljak to be speaking in his language

20     while the witness is giving his testimony, and he should be admonished

21     not to do so.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No comments, please,

23     Mr. Praljak, because you may influence the witness.  I don't know what

24     you said in your language.

25             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wasn't

Page 37927

 1     making any comments.  I just wanted to make a suggestion to my lawyers.

 2     Mr. Bos was talking about the independence of the Muslims, the referendum

 3     on the independence of the Muslims in Yugoslavia.  No, it was about the

 4     fate of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that is misstated.  It should have said

 5     "Bosnia-Herzegovina," not "Yugoslavia."  It's off our screens now, so I

 6     was just making the suggestion for that correction to be entered.  I

 7     wasn't making any suggestions, as such.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, the referendum was

 9     held so that there was a vote on the independence of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina; is that right?

11             MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.  And I hope that

12     finally now the witness can answer my question, and I'll repeat the

13     question one more time.

14        Q.   General, based on your personal contacts with the Bosnian Croats

15     at that time in 1992, how would you comment on the statement made in this

16     article, that even though the Croats voted in favour of an independent

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina, that there were times that they seemed to be on

18     the verge of setting up their own state too?  What is your comment on

19     this particular statement in the article?

20        A.   Talking about this paragraph and the article in general, I'm no

21     politician, I'm a soldier.  I'm not involved in this kind of thing.

22     Nevertheless, I have the impression that the Croats were not trying to

23     set up their own state within Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They would have

24     been practically unable to do anything like that, simply because the

25     Croats are scattered all over Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It is not a

Page 37928

 1     homogeneous group or a homogeneous territory where they could set up a

 2     state.  They were fighting for something entirely different.  They were

 3     fighting for equal rights within Bosnia and Herzegovina, something that

 4     would have been considered normal in any state.  They sought to attain

 5     that sort of a status, not to end up as a minority or not to end up being

 6     out-voted all the time, which is a perfectly normal thing to seek.

 7             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may comment.

 8     Now we see how meaningless it is to use the words of an American

 9     journalist, or an American article, dating back to the time in question.

10     If my learned friend wanted to raise the question of the referendum,

11     first of all, it is then a well-known fact.  Secondly, there are hundreds

12     and thousands of documents about that.  The choice should have been more

13     carefully considered.  Maybe a news piece that was written and published

14     in Bosnia at the time, it would have been easier for us to discuss it.

15     This answer shows how entirely meaningless it is to be using an article

16     like this.  Now that I've read it, it's really unrelated to anything at

17     all.

18             We've been talking here for the last three years about most of

19     these things, and you, Your Honours, should know that this is entirely

20     meaningless and unrelated to anything that we should be looking at.  This

21     is a waste of time, and nothing else.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor, however, is

23     entitled to develop his case in line with the indictment, and the witness

24     answered to the contrary.  That is what I have noticed.

25             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- [In English] I want

Page 37929

 1     to say of course he has that right --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 3             MR. KOVACIC:  -- that, but I'm merely trying to say there is no

 4     reason to put the question to the witness and to confront him with

 5     so-called facts which are found in this -- in this case, in an American

 6     newspaper article.  There is nothing realistic there, while at the same

 7     time we have so many contemporary documents prepared in Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.  So if he wants to use something, go ahead, use it, but not

 9     this kind of press.  This doesn't help.  This is not a fact.  And now,

10     since we finished that question --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, we have already

12     addressed this issue when we were dealing with the article written by

13     Mr. Sudetic in the American press, print press.  We had the same problem

14     then.  The Prosecution is relying on articles to develop its case, and

15     the Bench will assess the probative value of all of this at the end of

16     the case.  Anyway, the witness has answered the question.

17             Mr. Bos.

18             MR. BOS:

19        Q.   Mr. General, could I ask you to look at another document, which

20     is P10864.  This is an article from the "Boston Globe," and it describes

21     the situation in Sarajevo around March 1993.  And, in fact, it describes

22     the confrontation line in the area where the HVO is defending.  And I'll

23     ask you to put your attention to about the seventh paragraph starting

24     from the top, and let me read out what's being said here:

25             "The fighters here are ethnic Croats from the --"

Page 37930

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Slowly, please.

 2             MR. BOS:  "The fighters here are ethnic Croats from the HVO,

 3     known here by the initials of the HVO in the Serbo-Croatian language.

 4     Like the rest of Sarajevo's defenders, the HVO's 2.000 men are hanging by

 5     the skin of their teeth.  With a minimum of weapons and without proper

 6     uniforms, they are trying to hold one of the most sensitive and dangerous

 7     stretches of the front in the very centre of Sarajevo.  If the Serbs

 8     break through, they will be less than a mile from the Bosnian seat of

 9     government and the military high command."

10             Sir, does this article and the paragraphs that I just read out

11     give an accurate description of what the defence situation was in

12     Sarajevo in March 1993 for both the Muslims and the Croat forces who were

13     trying to defend the city?

14        A.   The distribution is accurate, essentially.  That's what it was

15     like.  There were about 2.000 HVO soldiers in Sarajevo, a brigade,

16     briefly.  It had its own area of responsibility, and it was unarmed,

17     unequipped, the same as all the other units defending Sarajevo.  It is

18     true that it was just across the river from the Presidency and the

19     institutions of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the distance between those buildings

20     and this being several hundred metres, no more than that.

21        Q.   Let me continue more towards the end of this article, and I'm

22     going to read out a few more paragraphs to you from this article.  About

23     seven or eight paragraphs down from what we just read out:

24             "In theory, Bosnia and its western neighbour, Croatia, are allies

25     in the battle against Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic to builder a

Page 37931

 1     Greater Serbia, but the alliance is shaky.  Croatian President

 2     Franjo Tudjman, who can seem moderate only when measured against

 3     Milosevic, makes no efforts to hide his plans to grab 'hums' of

 4     Western Bosnia.  A book of maps published recently in the Croatian

 5     capital Zagreb fails to mention Bosnia in the list of countries with

 6     which it has a common border.  The official leaders of Bosnian Croats

 7     party are viewed here as Tudjman puppets and now live in Zagreb.  HVO

 8     forces in Western Bosnia already control far more land than they would be

 9     given under the Vance-Owen -- the Cyrus Vance-David Owen Peace Plan, and

10     there have been clashes between HVO and Bosnian armed forces in the west

11     of the republic."

12             Sir, was this the type of news that would be read -- or that

13     people in Sarajevo would learn about Franjo Tudjman, that he was trying

14     to grab "hums" of Western Bosnia?

15        A.   It's true that President Izetbegovic and Mr. Franjo Tudjman

16     created an alliance of sorts in order to fight the Serbs.  The alliance

17     existed throughout the war.  We were receiving technical and material

18     assistance from Croatia throughout the war, which to a large extent

19     helped us to not be overcome and not lose everything that we were

20     fighting for.  There were some things that were said here, and there is

21     this book.  I know nothing about either of these.  Therefore, I can't say

22     anything.  I haven't read the book; I can't comment.

23             It is true that there were clashes in Western Bosnia.

24     Nevertheless, the clashes were limited.  They were local clashes and had

25     no significant influence on the Tudjman-Izetbegovic agreement.

Page 37932

 1             As for these maps and all that, I am unaware of that.  I've never

 2     had a chance to look at these, to be frank.

 3        Q.   Let me just read out the last paragraph of this -- of this

 4     article.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly indicate where the paragraph is.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             MR. BOS:  It continues from where I stopped.  It's the last three

 8     paragraphs.

 9        Q.   "But Sarajevo is a remarkable melting pot, where the ethnic

10     groups are intermarried and intermingled, and at least 6.000 Serbs have

11     voluntarily stayed on throughout the siege.

12             "Bosnian Croats are also prominent in the war effort.  The

13     special police is commanded by a Bosnian Croat, Dragan Vikic.  He makes

14     it clear his loyalty does not lie in Croatia.

15             "'I couldn't live in Zagreb,' Vikic said.  'I have a different

16     accent and a different approach to life.'"

17             Sir, do you know who Dragan Vikic was?

18        A.   I know very well who he is.  He's a friend of mine.  He was a

19     commander of a special unit comprising about 200 men in Sarajevo.  They

20     were living and working in Sarajevo, and they were fighting in order to

21     defend Sarajevo.  He's a legend of the city's defence, you might say.  He

22     says he couldn't live in Zagreb.  He was born in Sarajevo, and he loves

23     his native town.  That applies to most people, regardless of any other

24     statements that he may or may not have made.

25             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I see it's almost quarter to 4.00.  May

Page 37933

 1     we have the break?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have the

 3     break now.

 4             You must have something like ten minutes or so left.  I don't

 5     know.  The Registrar will give us the countdown.

 6             We shall resume in 20 minutes.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you have eight

10     minutes left.

11             MR. BOS:  I just have a few more questions, Your Honour.

12        Q.   General, could I ask you, by whom were you contacted to appear as

13     a witness for the Defence of Mr. Stojic?

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I would object to this line of

15     questioning.

16             I would object to this line of questioning.  I think it has a

17     chilling effect when we begin asking witnesses who contacted them.  We

18     are free to contact any witness, "we" being the Defence, free to contact

19     witnesses, and I think it's totally inappropriate.  I would like to know

20     what the relevance of this question is.

21             MR. BOS:  The relevance will come, but I'm happy to rephrase the

22     question if it's considered a chilling question.  I don't think it is.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  No, no, the effect is chilling, so I would like to

24     know the relevance.  What is the relevance?

25             MR. BOS:  We'll get to that, Your Honours.

Page 37934

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  No, at this point.  We don't hear the question and

 2     the answer and then determine what the relevance is.  I'd like to know,

 3     what is this -- why is this relevant?  I'm posing an objection.  I would

 4     like an answer.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if somebody is to raise

 6     an objection, it should be Ms. Nozica.  He's her witness, not yours.  So

 7     you're just -- it's not your own business.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. President,

 9     because when we don't object, when we don't do things, we get accused of

10     not being due diligent, and I'm quoting -- I'm quoting the Trial Chamber

11     now.  We get accused of not being due diligent.  My responsibility is to

12     be due diligent for my client, and that is exactly what I'm doing.

13     That's why I'm entitled to object, and I've made an objection.  I'm

14     entitled to hear a response, and I'm entitled to a ruling.  It is not

15     sufficient for you to say it's in the record.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You will have a decision.

17             Ms. Nozica, the question put by the Prosecutor, is that a problem

18     for you or not?

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is

20     problematic on the general level, and there I agree absolutely with my

21     colleague Mr. Karnavas.  It is not Ms. Nozica's witness, it is a witness

22     of the Stojic Defence.

23             Now, because I know what the Prosecutor wants to elicit through

24     this question, because I know why the Prosecutor is asking the question,

25     in fact, I consider that even if the witness were to answer the question,

Page 37935

 1     the witness will explain what kind of contact he had.  But the Prosecutor

 2     mustn't forget the fact that the Defence of Mr. Stojic came into

 3     possession of a document with this witness's name there, and he was

 4     selected because his name is on a document and because he was involved in

 5     an operation, as we saw during the examination-in-chief, and that is the

 6     sole reason why he was chosen, not for any other reason.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to consult my

 8     colleagues.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After discussing the issue, we

11     decide that the question can be put to the witness.

12             MR. BOS:

13        Q.   So I'll repeat the question, General.  By whom were you contacted

14     to appear as a witness for the Defence of Mr. Stojic?

15        A.   I was contacted by friends, by my friends from Western

16     Herzegovina, and Senka Nozica, when they came into possession of a

17     document that I signed for the procurement of weapons for the BH Army.

18        Q.   And was this the first time that you spoke to Ms. Senka Nozica

19     about -- or had you known Ms. Nozica before?

20        A.   Well, I've known Senka for 50 years, for as long as I've lived.

21     I've always known who Senka Nozica was.  She lived and grew up in

22     Sarajevo, and we know each other from before and from some other cases.

23        Q.   Right.  Let me just ask you a question about some of the other

24     cases.  Is it correct, sir, that Ms. Nozica was your Defence counsel in

25     2002, in relation to a criminal case where you and a number of other

Page 37936

 1     people were accused of weapons smuggling to Kosovo in 1998?

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question I expected

 3     to be asked has been asked.  Now it's up to you whether you're going to

 4     decide whether you're going to allow these questions being responded to.

 5     I have -- I'm a lawyer.  I have no problem with being Defence counsel for

 6     anyone, but that has nothing to do with these proceedings, with this

 7     trial, nor could the Prosecutor prove otherwise, because it has

 8     absolutely nothing to do with this.  If he is trying to discredit the

 9     witness because I did my work professionally, then I consider that to be

10     completely unacceptable.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to discuss this

12     issue.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the fact that

15     Ms. Nozica was your Defence lawyer, as has been alleged by the

16     Prosecutor, that is part and parcel of the sacrosanct rights of

17     confidentiality, the privileged relationship between you and your lawyer.

18     If you believe that this would jeopardise this privileged communication,

19     you may not answer, but if that's fine with you, you can answer.  Did you

20     understand our decision?

21             Mr. Bos, continue, please.

22             MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I do not -- I do not have too many

23     questions about, you know, what these proceedings were for.  I was just

24     told that this information was relevant for the Trial Chamber to know,

25     and I do not intend to go into detail about what this case was about

Page 37937

 1     and -- I just wanted to mention the mere fact that this incident

 2     occurred, and I will hereby conclude my cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             Ms. Nozica, do you have redirect?

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just linked to this

 6     last question, I'd like to ask the witness a few questions after that.

 7     We don't need to go into private session.  What I'm going to ask the

 8     witness can be asked in open session.

 9                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

10        Q.   Mr. Bahto, your decision to come in and testify in this trial,

11     was it our professional relationship that influenced that decision and

12     the fact that I was Defence counsel for you on one occasion, or because

13     you and I have known each other for 50 years, or did you decide to come

14     in and be a witness to confirm what happened in 1992 and 1993?  And just

15     briefly answer that, please.

16        A.   I came here voluntarily, of my own free will, without coercion

17     from anyone, and I came to testify to the advantage of the man who helped

18     the army and my people during 1992 and 1993.  So that was the only reason

19     that I came here.  It was because Bruno Stojic -- of Bruno Stojic and

20     Tihomir Majic who took part with me in the arming of the Muslim people.

21             MS. NOZICA:  Thank you, Witness.  Thank you for coming in.  I

22     have no further questions.

23             Thank you, Your Honours.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something?

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Mr. Bahto, unless it's something of

Page 37938

 1     particular importance, well, and the Trial Chamber will decide.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can respond to the Prosecutor.  I

 3     have no reason to be ashamed, so I can answer that last question of his,

 4     if the Court allows me to do so.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, the Prosecutor told

 6     you that he had no further questions.  Ms. Nozica asked you why you

 7     decided to come and testify, and you said that it was for Mr. Stojic, who

 8     provided the ABiH with weapons in 1992 and 1993, so you said it all.

 9             On behalf of my fellow Judges and in my own name, I thank you for

10     coming to testify for the Stojic Defence, to enable us to get to the

11     truth.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course, I wish you a safe

14     trip back home.

15             Yes, I see two Prosecutors on their feet.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

18             Before the witness is excused, the problem is, and Mr. Bos was

19     just on his feet, is that before the intervention -- before the last

20     intervention there was no answer to Mr. Bos' last question, and I think

21     the record should reflect the witness's answer to the last question put

22     by Mr. Bos before, and the transcript will show that, please.

23             Thank you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, so the last answer was

25     not recorded.  I no longer have the text in front of me.  Can you put the

Page 37939

 1     question again, and we'll make sure that his answer is in the record.

 2             MR. BOS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Bos:

 4        Q.   So the last question I asked, Witness, and you never gave an

 5     answer so I'll repeat the question.  Isn't it correct, sir, that

 6     Ms. Nozica was your Defence counsel in 2002 in relation to a criminal

 7     case where you and a number of other people were accused of weapons

 8     smuggling to Kosovo in 1998?  That was my question, and you haven't

 9     answered the question.

10        A.   Yes, Senka Nozica, as a friend of mine for many years, was my

11     Defence counsel in proceedings that the authorities raised against me

12     during 2001, linked to arms smuggling to Kosovo, and if need be I can

13     clarify that, too, I can tell you what that was about.  But I was found

14     not guilty.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You have now

16     provided an answer that has been recorded.

17             Thank you, sir, for coming to testify.  So I'll renew my thanks

18     to you, and I ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom and to

19     bring in the next witness.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  Please

23     state your surname, first name, and date of birth, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedzad Cengic; 1950, the 23rd of

25     April; Sarajevo.

Page 37940

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

 2     occupation, sir?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a company.  We deal in

 4     vehicles.  By occupation, I'm a professional caterer.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you had an opportunity to

 6     testify before a court of law as to the events in the former Yugoslavia

 7     or is this going to be the first time?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

10     declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  NEDZAD CENGIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please be

16     seated.

17             Just a few elements to explain to you how this is going to take

18     place.  Ms. Nozica has probably told you she has a few documents for you.

19     Thereafter, the other Defence counsel may possibly - we don't know - they

20     may have questions for you as part of their cross-examination.  And the

21     Prosecutor, on your right-hand side, will in due time carry out his

22     cross-examination.  You have four Judges in front of you.  They, too, may

23     have questions for you, if they deem it useful.

24             So this is how things are going to happen.  We have breaks every

25     hour and a half, but if at any time you're not feeling well - it can

Page 37941

 1     happen to you, it happens to Judges as well - just tell us so and we can

 2     have a break for you to have a short rest.

 3             Ms. Nozica, you may proceed.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  We had a fast and loud witness before you.

 7     I realise that you speak very softly, which will be fine, on the one

 8     hand, but I would also like to ask you to speak slowly, on the other,

 9     just to make sure that everything we say is reflected in the transcript.

10             Mr. Cengic, I will now read back to you and the Trial Chamber

11     some personal information in relation to you, personal details, and I

12     will ask you at the very end to confirm whether everything is true.

13             You completed your secondary school in Sarajevo in 1968.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   I'm waiting until it gets into the transcript.  Right.  You

16     started working as a caterer in 1984, and ended your career as a

17     professional caterer in 1992, April 1992.  In April 1992, you joined a

18     special unit of the MUP of the BH Army.  The commander of that unit was

19     Dragan Vikic.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You were the logistics commander in this unit; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You remained with this unit until March 1993?

24        A.   I'm sorry, there is one thing that I have to explain.  I was the

25     logistics commander, meaning I was only in charge of food, food supplies,

Page 37942

 1     food supplies, restaurant, that kind of thing.  Above me was another lad

 2     who was the assistant commander, and he was the second in command.

 3        Q.   Thank you for this explanation.  It was my intention to explain

 4     this as soon as we got to the next series of questions.

 5        A.   In which case, I apologise.

 6        Q.   You were a member of this unit until March 1993; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said yourself that nowadays you run a private business in

 9     Sarajevo; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Cengic, can you please explain to the Trial Chamber when you

12     joined the Special Unit of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the

13     BH Army?

14        A.   Precisely when the war broke out in 1992.  That was when I joined

15     the Special Action Unit.  More specifically, the commander, Dragan Vikic,

16     we were friends, so I decided to join his unit.  And afterwards, I became

17     the logistics commander or commandant.  I was in charge of the catering

18     aspect, the vehicles that we had, food supplies, and so on and so forth.

19        Q.   Was there anyone in the unit who was in charge of storing

20     weapons?

21        A.   Yes, that was the deputy.  Yes, that was the deputy, who was

22     directly involved with the procurement of weapons.

23        Q.   Mr. Cengic, was there a time when you had to get weapons for the

24     unit?

25        A.   Yes, I can say that there was.

Page 37943

 1        Q.   I will allow you to explain.  The only reason I interrupted was

 2     because I wanted to ask you to please pause.  Sorry about interrupting

 3     you.  Can you now go on and explain, please, how and when you were

 4     involved in an activity in which you had to procure weapons for your

 5     units?

 6        A.   I was once called by the commander.  He said I should be on my

 7     way to Mostar to see Mr. Bruno Stojic.  I personally knew Bruno Stojic.

 8     We were friends.  We go way back before the war.  I was the only one who

 9     was able to go, so he assigned me.  I asked him for another colleague to

10     travel with me, who was another friend, and he was a member of the unit

11     too.

12        Q.   When was that, exactly, when Mr. Vikic called you and dispatched

13     you?

14        A.   That was February 1993.

15        Q.   Can you please briefly tell the Chamber what the situation was

16     like in February 1993, in terms of weapons, the situation in your unit?

17        A.   In our unit, it was simply disastrous.  The town was under siege.

18     There were no supplies coming in.  Then my commander decided that we

19     should try and use the help of Bruno Stojic to get at some equipment;

20     MTS, to be more specific.  In actual fact, the situation was chaotic.

21        Q.   You were off to Mostar.  Can you tell us the name of this friend

22     who travelled with you?

23        A.   Sure.  His name was Faruk Drina.

24        Q.   When did you arrive in Mostar and who did you speak to first when

25     you arrived?

Page 37944

 1        A.   As soon as I arrived, as I personally knew Bruno Stojic, I went

 2     straight to Bruno Stojic.  I tried to track him down, and I eventually

 3     found him.  I came to his office.  We talked.  The atmosphere that

 4     prevailed was friendly and brotherly.  I explained to him what was going

 5     on in Sarajevo.  I told him about the situation.  Nevertheless, after all

 6     of this talk, Bruno asked me to wait until the next day, if I could,

 7     because he personally did not have the power to make any decisions as to

 8     what could be given to Sarajevo and how much MTS there was that was

 9     available.

10             That evening, they took me out for dinner, both me and my

11     colleague.  Bruno Stojic was in attendance, as well as

12     General Slobodan Praljak, General Milivoj Petkovic, and the atmosphere

13     was like this:  People were buying rounds.  And they told us to come to

14     have a talk the next day, the same office as that day.

15        Q.   So did you eventually go to that office the next day, Mr. Cengic,

16     and what exactly happened when you got there?  Did you go -- we've been

17     asked again.  I know it's not a pleasant experience to give evidence in

18     court, but please try and pay closer attention.  Look at the screen in

19     front of you, and then you'll be able to follow and decide when the pause

20     should be.

21             So did you go to that office the next day, and what exactly were

22     you told?

23        A.   Yes, we did go, we went to that office.  Waiting for us there was

24     Bruno Stojic, the friend of mine -- or, rather, I came there with my

25     friend.  So Bruno Stojic was there, General Slobodan Praljak was there,

Page 37945

 1     and General Milivoj Petkovic.  Yet again, we explained the situation over

 2     in Sarajevo.  Nevertheless, we had to wait until they made sure there was

 3     sufficient MTS for them to help us.

 4        Q.   Mr. Cengic, did they tell you to go anywhere else from that

 5     office?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the answer.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We then agreed that we should go to

 8     Grude, to the Logistics Base, that the MTS that we had requested would be

 9     waiting for us there to pick it up.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you remember the name of the person who you went to the

12     Logistics Base to see and speak to?

13        A.   Tiho Majic, I believe was the man's name.  He was the one who was

14     in charge of distributing MTS.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I let Ms. Nozica

16     continue, but I feel that she's not putting the questions I would have

17     liked her to put, so I'll backtrack a little bit.

18             You left Sarajevo to go and meet Mr. Stojic, whom you've known

19     for a long time, since he's a friend.  We are now in February 1993, and

20     you leave on the instructions of Dragan Vikic.  When you left, this is a

21     long trip, an important trip.  You are going to meet high-ranking

22     personalities of the HVO.  As far as you were concerned, did Mr. Vikic

23     have to ask permission from his superior, Mr. Izetbegovic, or was this

24     settled solely by Mr. Vikic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was

Page 37946

 1     Mr. Vikic, because I wasn't --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.

 3     You met Mr. Stojic, and you told us so.  You told us that Mr. Stojic had

 4     to refer to somebody else because he could not take the decision himself.

 5             That same evening, you have dinner with Mr. Praljak --

 6     General Praljak and General Petkovic.  I assume that you must have

 7     discussed this over dinner.  You must have addressed the reason why you

 8     were there, or you didn't; you just had a drink and had some food and

 9     discussed other matters?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course.  We talked

11     about our arrival and talked about the things that were going on in

12     Sarajevo.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you did discuss it.  Above

14     Mr. Stojic, who was above Mr. Stojic, who was his superior?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, while we were

16     waiting, it was Mr. Praljak, as we were waiting for authorisation,

17     Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic, because they had to wait for some sort of

18     agreement to be reached then, and thirdly we would then bide our time in

19     order to see what happened.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And after what you're saying,

21     Mr. Stojic's superior is Mr. Praljak; is that right?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  According to

24     what you're saying, you don't know.

25             Please speak louder.  We have difficulty hearing you.  My

Page 37947

 1     question is a simple one.

 2             When you talked to Mr. Stojic and he says, I need to refer to

 3     somebody else because I can't take the decision myself, according to you,

 4     who is he going to turn to for this permission?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.  Fine.  Is this an

 7     assumption you're making or are you quite sure?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Quite sure.  All right.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  As there has been an interruption anyway,

11     Ms. Nozica, I would like you, Witness, to tell us how you got from

12     Sarajevo to the office of Bruno Stojic.  Particularly, when you

13     approached Mostar, from which side did you approach, which bridge did you

14     cross?  Did you make a detour?  You know what I mean, I hope.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The two of us had this paper from

16     Dragan Vikic.  It was a pass that he had given us.  We ran across the

17     runway.  The army allowed us to cross Mount Igman.  There was a vehicle

18     waiting for us, and we drove to Mostar.  Just outside Mostar, there was a

19     patrol, no problem there, HVO patrol.  No problem there at all.  No

20     problem anywhere at all, in fact.  And we asked about the location of the

21     headquarters where Bruno Stojic was.  There was this man there that we

22     asked.  And then this friend of mine, he knew the man, and of course we

23     found the building where these people were, as I said before.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, you did have to -- I'm sorry.  You did

25     have, at one point, to cross the Neretva, as I suppose.  If I'm right,

Page 37948

 1     could you tell us where you crossed it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Across the Old Bridge.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  In Mostar?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, right across the Old Bridge.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And you confirm that you were not stopped by

 6     ABiH check-points or HVO check-points; you could pass without any

 7     problems?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, they did stop us, but we

 9     had passes, we had permits.  The papers were valid.  They looked through

10     our papers, and we were allowed to pass through.  That was quite normal.

11     No problems there.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I would like to

14     get back to the issue of Mr. Stojic's immediate superior for a few

15     moments.

16             You said that you had had the opportunity to have dinner with

17     General Praljak and General Petkovic, but I was wondering whether you

18     could tell us what position Mr. Stojic held exactly, what

19     Generals Praljak and Petkovic actually held.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the function speaks for

21     itself.  Mr. Praljak was a general, Mr. Petkovic was also a general, and

22     the posts speak for themselves.  However, Mr. Bruno Stojic, I think, was

23     the minister of defence at that time.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  So according to you,

25     the minister of defence at the time got his instructions from

Page 37949

 1     General Praljak?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I really don't

 3     know that.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are a person who

 6     is educated.  Is it at all possible that a minister of defence can

 7     receive orders from a general?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't really understand

 9     military matters and hierarchy.  Perhaps that is possible.  How should I

10     know?  I don't really know.  I wasn't interested in things like that.  I

11     don't have knowledge in the area.  I was not a military man, myself, so I

12     don't know the order of things.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, you don't know.

14     Very well.

15             Ms. Nozica.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             I'd just like to tell Your Honours that the questions that were

18     asked will be explained.  I had planned to go through those issues and to

19     explain them during the course of my examination-in-chief.  Where the

20     witness moved around, who was with him, and who, except for Vikic, knew

21     about the procurement of weapons, all these are questions that will be

22     asked in due course.

23        Q.   Mr. Cengic, tell me whether you had a transport vehicle of any

24     kind.  And this brings us to the question of how you were able to move

25     around Mostar.  Did you have a vehicle of some kind which would allow you

Page 37950

 1     to transport the MTS?

 2        A.   We didn't have anything personally, but my colleague, Fahrudin,

 3     went to the 4th Corps.  He explained what the situation was, and they

 4     provided him with a truck, a Dais truck, where it said "BH Army" in

 5     capital letters, and the lily emblem was on the truck.  I got into the

 6     truck and drove to Grude.

 7        Q.   In Grude, did you load up the MTS, the materiel and technical

 8     equipment, and if so, do you remember what it was that you loaded up?

 9        A.   In Grude, we loaded up MTS, as much as the truck could take.

10     That is to say, 150.000 bullets, 7.62 millimetres, 150 LPGs, and three

11     launchers.

12        Q.   Tell me now, please, Mr. Cengic, did you pay for those weapons?

13        A.   I have to stress -- I have to stress, Your Honours, that I was

14     given the weapons free of charge.

15        Q.   On that occasion, were you given some weapons from the BH Army as

16     well for your unit?

17        A.   When we arrived in Mostar, we tried -- I and my colleague tried

18     to get some more equipment to drive to Sarajevo, so we went to the

19     4th Corps, went to see the person in charge of logistics, and we asked

20     them if they had anything else that we could transport to Sarajevo and

21     use for the city's defence.  However, the logistics person said to me, he

22     said, Sir, we only have three hand-held launchers that cost 900 marks.

23     If you don't have the money, then you won't have the launchers.  However,

24     I did have some money on me, as it happened, and so I made a joke and

25     said, I have received a whole truckload.  Where are your morals?  I

Page 37951

 1     received them from Grude, Bruno, Praljak and Petkovic, and now you're

 2     going to take money off me, 900 German marks, for just three hand-held

 3     rocket-launchers.  All he did was to say, Well, we have to pay for them,

 4     too.

 5        Q.   When did you set off for Sarajevo, Mr. Cengic, and were you given

 6     a permit of some kind, in view of the fact that you were transporting

 7     MTS?

 8        A.   We set out straight away, and we did have a permit, a pass, yes,

 9     and on that pass it said:  "Urgent.  Nobody must stop the transport."

10     There was signatures, signatures of General Praljak and

11     General Milivoj Petkovic.

12        Q.   So did you have any problems at the check-points, and were you

13     able to a bring the weapons to Sarajevo, or what was your final

14     destination, in actual fact?

15        A.   Let me tell you this way.  This is how it was:  When we arrived

16     at HVO check-points upon exiting from Mostar, we passed by without any

17     problems.  I showed the permit and told them what it was all about, but I

18     did have some local problems by -- on Mount Igman from the BH Army, but

19     luckily I promised that I would go again in ten days' time, and then that

20     I would leave them half the MTS I was carrying.  So that's why they let

21     us go.

22        Q.   Now take a look at document 2D00195, please, and I think that's

23     the first document in your binder.

24             Have you found it, Mr. Cengic?

25        A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes, I have it.

Page 37952

 1        Q.   Would you explain to the Trial Chamber what this is about?  It's

 2     a letter which says:  "Hello, Bruno," and it's signed by the commander,

 3     Dragan Vikic.  The date is the 23rd of February, 1993.  When was this

 4     letter written, to the best of your recollections?

 5        A.   This letter came as soon as we arrived in Sarajevo, Hrasnica and

 6     then Sarajevo.  As Dragan Vikic was so happy to see the MTS when it

 7     arrived, he decided to write this letter straight away, the letter that

 8     you have before you.

 9        Q.   Tell me now, please, once you wrote this letter, you said that

10     Dragan Vikic was very happy, was there a meeting, were there a number of

11     people rallied together, or what?

12        A.   I can tell you that I felt elated, very responsible and

13     important, because the whole town came out to welcome us.  There were

14     festivities going on, well, if I can call them festivities.  But I know

15     that Dragan Vikic was there, that he had been invited to come, the

16     Minister of the Interior, Jusuf Pusniak [as interpreted] as well, and we

17     all had our photographs taken together in that happy mood.  And I think,

18     with this letter, that when I went out, I -- or, rather, when I left, I

19     took the letter to the gentleman in Mostar.

20        Q.   In this letter, Mr. Cengic, it says --

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Just to clarify things - probably

22     it's not that important - this appears to be a letter by Dragan Vikic.

23     On page 62, line 3, you have asked the witness:

24             "Once you wrote this letter ..."

25             Is that lost in translation or is it established, and then the

Page 37953

 1     witness perhaps should confirm that he wrote it; Dragan Vikic signed, but

 2     he wrote it himself?

 3             Witness, did you write the letter yourself?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't write the letter

 5     myself.  It's a mistake in the interpretation.  Dragan Vikic wrote it.  I

 6     didn't have --

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Now the record is set straight.

 8             Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and thank

10     you for stepping in.  It was obviously my mistake, but thank you for

11     intervening nonetheless.

12        Q.   Now, in this letter it says that the Special Unit is asking for

13     more MTS.  Now, did you happen to go to Mostar again, perhaps, to ask for

14     more MTS?

15        A.   Some ten days later, or seven to ten days later, once again,

16     well, we were so happy and elated, we decided to do the whole thing again

17     and get more MTS, and did what Dragan Vikic wrote to the gentlemen.

18        Q.   It was my mistake, Witness, my mistake, but before we carry on,

19     would you just look at page 2 of this document, which is a permit, an

20     approval, and is that the permit that you said you were given when you

21     set out from Mostar?

22        A.   Yes, that's right, that's the permit and approval from the

23     gentlemen, as it says here, from General Praljak -- Slobodan Praljak,

24     General, and Milivoj Petkovic, and you can see all that on the permit.

25        Q.   It says here -- it has your name here?

Page 37954

 1        A.   Yes, and Mr. Drina, because we were together.

 2        Q.   Now let's go to the second time you went, because you said that

 3     seven to ten days later you decided to go again to collect some MTS.  Did

 4     you reach Mostar?  And if so, what happened when you reached Mostar?

 5        A.   Yes, we did reach Mostar.  I reported to General Bruno again or

 6     went to see Bruno again and gave him this letter.  He took a look at it

 7     and said that we would have to wait at least ten days.

 8        Q.   And what happened next?

 9        A.   Five or six days later, I received information saying that my

10     wife, who was in Sweden with the children, had had a stroke.  I asked

11     Mr. Bruno to get me a car, if he could, and to let me go to Split, and

12     that's what he did.

13        Q.   After that, did you go to Sweden from Split?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   Do you have any knowledge whatsoever to the effect that anybody

16     else might have transported or was supposed to transport the MTS that you

17     had come to pick up to Sarajevo?

18        A.   Sometime later, I can't remember exactly when, maybe a fortnight

19     later, I came into contact with Dragan Vikic, and he ordered me -- or,

20     rather, wanted to order me and ordered me to go to Mostar, saying that

21     the MTS had been prepared for me and that it was waiting for me in

22     Mostar.  However, I wasn't able to go, so I asked him if I could stay on

23     because my wife was in a critical situation, and there's no doubt --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness explain his last sentence.

25     Did it reach Sarajevo or not?

Page 37955

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You say you have no doubt that he arrived.  Do you have

 3     knowledge -- certain knowledge whether the second shipment of the MTS

 4     actually reached Sarajevo?

 5        A.   No, I don't know that directly, myself.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, when you told Mr. Vikic that you couldn't go

 7     back, yourself, that you couldn't go back to Mostar, did you stay on in

 8     Sweden?

 9        A.   Yes, I did, until 1995.

10        Q.   Your answer wasn't fully recorded, your answer on page 64,

11     line 17.  You said that when Dragan Vikic called you -- and could you

12     repeat what you said.  You said that your wife was in a critical

13     situation and --

14        A.   He asked me if it was at all possible that since the MTS was

15     ready and waiting, and since I knew the people there already,

16     Mr. Praljak, and Mr. Bruno, and Petkovic, whether it would be at all

17     possible for me to sort the situation out, but I wasn't able to do that.

18        Q.   I see.  Fine, thank you.  Now let's look at the next document in

19     your binder, which is 2D1195.

20             Witness, let me ask you this first:  Prior to your proofing, did

21     you ever set eyes on this document?

22        A.   I can honestly tell you that I didn't.

23        Q.   That's fine.  This one was signed by the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade

24     commander, Slavko Zelic.  Were you aware of the existence of the

25     Kralj Tvrtko Brigade in February 1993 in Sarajevo, an HVO brigade like

Page 37956

 1     that in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The date is the 25th of February, 1993.  It says Mr. Zelic

 4     explained how they didn't have enough MTS, and he says here:

 5             "We have an agreement with the minister, Jusuf Pusina, and the

 6     commander of the Special MUP Units, Mr. Dragan Vikic.  Therefore, we

 7     propose that you place available MTS at the disposal of a joint group

 8     that would comprise representatives of the MUP, Drina, Faruk, and

 9     Nedzad Cengic ..."

10             And then it goes on to list some HVO members, such as Damjan

11     Moro.  This letter is about you, and the date is the 25th of February,

12     1993.  We looked at that previous document and saw that on the

13     17th of February, you'd received a pass already and had reached Sarajevo.

14     What portion of the MTS is this letter about, as far as you know?

15        A.   I think this part of the letter is about the portion that

16     Dragan Vikic specified in that other document under "Requests."  I took

17     this to the generals and to Bruno Stojic.

18        Q.   Is my understanding correct, Mr. Cengic?  Is it an announcement

19     for your other trip, when you had to travel the next time around, as you

20     said, but this time around you didn't bring back any weapons?

21        A.   Yes, your understanding is correct.

22        Q.   Can you now please move on to the next document, the following

23     document, 2D1242.

24             Have you got that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 37957

 1        Q.   The date is the 8th of July, 1992.  This is an order issued by

 2     the Defence Ministry of Croatia.  It says that the MTS must be

 3     distributed to the Grude Logistics Base and be made available to

 4     Sarajevo's Special MUP Forces.  First of all, I want to know if this is

 5     the special unit that you were a member of.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Secondly, it says the person in charge of taking delivery will be

 8     Mr. Zoran Cegar.  Can you confirm, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,

 9     whether Zoran Cegar was at the time indeed a member of the Special Police

10     Unit in Sarajevo?

11        A.   I can assert with full responsibility that he was a member of

12     that unit.

13        Q.   Can we now please move on to 2D1243.  Have you got that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Again, the 8th of July, 1992.  The order is almost identical,

16     signed by the same person; different kind of MTS.  Again,

17     Mr. Zoran Cegar's name is mentioned.

18             Mr. Cengic, can you perhaps think back?  The 8th of July, 1992,

19     did the MTS mentioned here reach your unit afterwards?

20        A.   I told you before about what my job was in the Special Unit.  I

21     told you that I had nothing to do with weapons until I arrived in Mostar.

22     As for the rest, I have no doubt that what is specified here eventually

23     reached the unit.  That is what I believe.

24        Q.   Are you trying to tell me that you had no duties that had

25     anything with taking delivery of weapons; is that what you're trying to

Page 37958

 1     say?

 2        A.   I had no duties like that.  There were professionals dealing with

 3     that kind of thing, and they knew what the job meant.  They were former

 4     policemen from before the war, as a rule.  There was no way I could have

 5     known.  There was no way I could have accessed this type of material.

 6     There is not even a shadow of a doubt in my mind that this equipment

 7     eventually reached the unit.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Cengic, as you said during your examination,

 9     when, in March 1993, you left Bosnia-Herzegovina for Sweden, you no

10     longer knew what was going on in Sarajevo?  I mean, you had no direct

11     personal knowledge of any of that, did you?  And where did you remain

12     throughout that time up until 1995?

13        A.   Of course I knew what was going on.  Everybody knew what was

14     going on in Sarajevo.  It was under siege throughout.  I had some

15     contacts, at least for as long as the phone lines were still up and

16     running.  I returned once the Dayton Peace Accords had been signed, the

17     Dayton Peace Agreements, and when the truce was finally in effect.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Witness, Your Honours, this

19     concludes my examination-in-chief.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one short follow-up

21     question.

22             Did you remain in touch with Mr. Stojic throughout 1993 and 1994,

23     or was it so that because of the situation, that contact was just broken

24     up?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't able to keep in touch.  It

Page 37959

 1     wasn't that someone interrupted our contacts, it's just that I was

 2     physically unable to maintain that contact.  There would have been no

 3     reason for either of us to break off.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you the same

 5     question as I asked of another witness.

 6             We have material evidence that weapons were sent to the ABiH in

 7     Sarajevo.  From where you stand, had those weapons not been given, would

 8     the Muslims in Sarajevo have been just totally taken over by the Serbs,

 9     overrun?  The fact that those weapons were brought to them, was that a

10     decisive factor in the relation of power of the forces in presence during

11     the siege in Sarajevo?  Tell us whether you can answer or not.  If it's

12     too complicated, of course, you may not be able to.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, without the weapons

14     that were coming from the HVO, there would have been no way to lift

15     Sarajevo's siege or, indeed, for Sarajevo to survive.  The whole world

16     knew exactly what was going on in Sarajevo.  That is my opinion.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nozica.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, an intervention just

19     for the transcript.  I do not wish to take any time from my learned

20     friend.  I'm talking about page 63, line 25, and page 64, line 1.  It

21     reads:  "I submitted a report to General Bruno and I saw General Bruno."

22     If I remember correctly, and I'm sure the witness can confirm that, it

23     was the second time he was in Mostar he saw the generals and Bruno.  Is

24     that right, Witness?  The next time you came to Mostar; right?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

Page 37960

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] What's missing is the plural and the

 2     word "and," "The generals and Bruno."

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

 4             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, I will have just a short question,

 5     more or less, to verify some things.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  I'm Bozidar Kovacic,

 8     on behalf of General Praljak.  There's one thing I wish to clarify for

 9     the transcript, as far as the general is concerned.

10             The first time you met Mr. Stojic and Mr. Praljak and

11     Mr. Petkovic, you went to dinner, to that dinner together; right?  Did

12     they ask you many questions about the situation in Sarajevo on that

13     occasion?

14        A.   Well, what I can tell you is they did.  They were greatly

15     concerned.  That much was obvious.

16        Q.   They wanted to know exactly what was going on over there?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was there any sort of hesitation on their part, deliberations,

19     that you could tell, when they found out about the purpose of you coming

20     to Mostar?

21        A.   No hesitation at all.  I was nothing if not pleasantly surprised.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             There's another matter I wish to set right for the transcript.

24     We're looking at questions starting with page 56 and all the way to

25     page 57, line 1, questions by Judge Antonetti.  There were several

Page 37961

 1     questions there by the Presiding Judge about who was who, if I can put it

 2     that way, concerning the three men that you had dinner with.  Were you in

 3     any way familiarised with the exact positions, ranks and titles of the

 4     three gentlemen facing you across the table that night?

 5        A.   To be perfectly honest, the only man I knew was Bruno Stojic.

 6     Nevertheless, by coincidence he introduced me to General -- and they said

 7     immediately, "General," and then this man welcomed me wholeheartedly, and

 8     Mr. Petkovic, another general.  So that's how they introduced each other

 9     to me, by saying, "General," and one knows what that means.  Bruno Stojic

10     was the man who told me, This is General so-and-so and that is

11     General so-and-so.

12        Q.   Very well.  And the first person you spoke to was Stojic, because

13     Stojic was the first person you met, Stojic said that he must consult

14     others about these weapons; isn't that what he said?  Was there anything

15     in that situation that led you to believe that those others that he was

16     supposed to consult were there to grant their approval or permission, or

17     was it merely about consulting, precisely as he said?  Were the other two

18     persons merely to be consulted, and was this only about weapons and

19     nothing else?  The impression that you got, that's all I'm talking about,

20     your own impression.

21        A.   My impression was that of utter friendliness.  I didn't even

22     manage to figure out who was the man in charge there among the three.

23     But when you speak to someone and you call them "General," well, we all

24     know what that means, don't we?

25        Q.   Well, in your opinion, someone is a general by rank.  That means

Page 37962

 1     the number-one man; right?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   Unless, obviously, there's an admiral sitting around the same

 4     table?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

 8     question, following Mr. Kovacic's question.  There's no trick to it.  I

 9     never ask tricky questions.  In my professional life, I've had the

10     opportunity of asking questions of millions of witnesses.  I never

11     tricked anybody.  There's no trick to my question.  It's a purely

12     technical question, because I'm trying to ascertain what roles

13     Mr. Praljak, Petkovic and others played.

14             Let's return to that famous dinner, that meal.  You have a good

15     memory, obviously, because you provided a lot of information.  Maybe you

16     will be able to answer; maybe not.  Here's my question:  Who paid the

17     bill?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, believe me, I don't know

19     that.  I was too tired to remember that sort of thing.  One thing I do

20     know, however, is I was given a room, and I remember that I was so tired

21     that, in fact, I had difficulty walking back to my room.  My legs just

22     wouldn't carry me.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This means you don't know.

24     Very well.

25             Ms. Alaburic.

Page 37963

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no questions for

 2     this witness.  Thank you.

 3             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No questions,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

 6             Mr. Karnavas.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  We have no questions for this witness, although we

 8     do wish to thank him for coming here and giving his evidence.  Thank you

 9     very much, sir.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

11             MR. LAWS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

12     everyone in and around the courtroom.  And good afternoon to you, sir.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Laws:

14        Q.   I have a very few questions for you relating to the evidence that

15     you've given to us today, and you'll be on your way very soon.  All

16     right?

17             The weapons that you obtained were used to fight against the

18     Serbs, were they not?  That's right, isn't it?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness speak up, please, and he's

20     sitting too far away from the microphone.  The interpreters can't hear

21     him properly.  Thank you.

22             MR. LAWS:  You need to look forward a little bit, and if you can

23     speak a little more loudly.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat?

25             MR. LAWS:  Yes, please.

Page 37964

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the Serbs.

 2             MR. LAWS:  Thank you, sir.

 3        Q.   And that was the clear understanding as between you, on the one

 4     hand, and the people at the dinner, that's to say, Mr. Stojic,

 5     Generals Petkovic and Praljak, on the other hand, wasn't it?

 6        A.   Well, I can tell you that that was, in fact, the case, the reason

 7     being everybody knew what the situation in Sarajevo was at the time.  The

 8     weapons went straight to Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   That's right.  I'm going to ask you some more questions about

10     that in just a moment.  But so that we're clear, everybody sitting around

11     that table knew full well that those weapons were going to be used

12     against the Serbs, didn't they?

13        A.   They knew that the weapons were going to be used against the

14     aggressor, read "the Serbs," and that was only to be expected.

15        Q.   Of course, because the Serbs had laid siege to the city of

16     Sarajevo, and then proceeded to shell it and to conduct a sniper campaign

17     against its citizens, and particularly against its civilians?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   And it so happened that you were a part of the special forces of

20     the MUP?  You need, I'm afraid, to say a word, even quietly.  We won't

21     pick up on the transcript your nod of the head.

22        A.   Yes, yes, yes, yes.

23        Q.   And the special forces of the MUP, as you've told us, were headed

24     by Dragan Vikic?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 37965

 1        Q.   We've heard a little bit about him this afternoon in this

 2     courtroom.  He became a well-known figure in the city for his prominent

 3     role in defending it against the Serb aggressors, didn't he?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   He was, amongst other things, a martial arts expert, and he was

 6     widely praised for being the first to fire back at the Serbs, wasn't he?

 7     That's also right, isn't it?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   He was also a Bosnian Croat?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And we've heard, and perhaps you know from your knowledge of him,

12     that he had, in fact, been born in Sarajevo.

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And he led a force which included Muslims?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And also some Serbs who had been part of that unit before the

17     Serbs laid siege to Sarajevo and remained under the command of

18     Dragan Vikic, and that's also right, isn't it?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So just using your unit as an example of the position

21     in Sarajevo in 1993, Croats, Muslims and Serbs were fighting side by side

22     to defend their city against the common enemy; is that right?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And as that year went on, doubtless you learnt that

25     elsewhere in Bosnia fighting had broken out between the forces of the HVO

Page 37966

 1     and the BiH Army?

 2        A.   As far as I know -- well, I didn't learn about that.  Perhaps

 3     there was some sporadic fighting, but while I was there, that was not

 4     going on.

 5        Q.   All right.  You've told us today that you, in fact, left Sarajevo

 6     in -- is it March that you leave?

 7        A.   The end of February and beginning of March, yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  In that time, the arms embargo affected the

 9     ability of the people of Sarajevo to defend the city against the Serbs,

10     didn't it?

11        A.   You're quite right.

12        Q.   And you've told us about one shipment of weaponry, perhaps two,

13     that you were involved in which came from Herceg-Bosna and was supplied

14     to those defending the city of Sarajevo?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And those shipments, if there were two of them, were arranged

17     between you and your old friend Bruno Stojic?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And the commander of your unit, Dragan Vikic, who also knew

20     Bruno Stojic, didn't he?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And when we look at one of the documents that you have looked at

23     already today in the first binder that you were given, it's 2D00195.

24     It's the "Hello, Bruno" letter, if I can call it that, that's what it's

25     headed at the top.

Page 37967

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And as well as thanking those involved for having provided the

 3     weapons, towards -- after the list of material that he's now seeking --

 4             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Mr. Laws, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we

 5     received only the documents after you mentioned the number of the

 6     document, and the transcript does not contain the number.  Would you be

 7     so kind as to repeat it.

 8             MR. LAWS:  Thank you.  It's 2D00195, and it's in the bundle

 9     provided by the Stojic Defence.

10             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Thank you.

11             MR. LAWS:  And it's the document headed "Hello, Bruno."

12        Q.   And if we look at the paragraph that immediately follows the list

13     of weapons that Mr. Vikic is now seeking, he says:

14             "Bruno, send me what you can out of these materials, and point

15     Drina and Necko to where this can be bought and acquired so they could

16     complete this for me."

17             Necko is you, isn't it?

18        A.   Correct.  "Spic," [phoen] is -- that's an addition.

19        Q.   And Drina is your colleague.  I think you told us he was called

20     Faruk Drina; is that right?

21        A.   Faruk Drina, yes, correct.

22        Q.   And then he goes on, Mr. Vikic, to talk about visiting a flat

23     that belongs to somebody called Mato, and about taking valuables out of

24     it.  And that's somebody who he and Mr. Stojic both knew, a friend or

25     acquaintance in common; is that also right?

Page 37968

 1        A.   That's right, correct.

 2        Q.   Did you know who Mato was?

 3        A.   Yes, I do know.

 4        Q.   And can you confirm that he was a mutual friend or acquaintance

 5     of Mr. Stojic's and Mr. Vikic's?

 6        A.   It's Bruno's brother.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  So when you were in Mostar and dealing

 8     with Bruno Stojic and also with Generals Praljak and Petkovic, they were

 9     dealing with people that they knew, that's you, and Dragan Vikic through

10     you, people that they knew well; is that right?

11        A.   I just knew Bruno Stojic well.

12        Q.   You're quite right.  You knew Bruno Stojic well, and he trusted

13     and you trusted Dragan Vikic?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   What about the others there?  You told us you didn't know

16     General Praljak.  Was anything said by anybody there about any worry that

17     they might have about these weapons being used against the HVO?

18        A.   Nobody said anything.

19        Q.   Well, did Mr. Stojic not reassure the others present that the

20     weapons that were going to be supplied to you were, in fact, as you were

21     saying and as was quite right, going to go to Sarajevo to be used against

22     the Serbs?

23        A.   I think he did do that, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's what I wanted to be clear about.

25     You think he did do that.  Just help us with that.  You have -- if you

Page 37969

 1     can't remember who paid the bill, you have, nonetheless, quite a good

 2     memory of this conversation, don't you?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And you think that it's right that General Praljak was - I don't

 5     want to put a word into your mouth, you tell us - concerned about giving

 6     these weapons over; would that be fair?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   All right.  Wanting to make sure that they were not going to be

 9     used to harm his side?

10        A.   I think he was certain about the whole thing.  Probably they had

11     discussed it, Bruno Stojic and him.

12        Q.   I think a moment ago you said words to the effect of you think

13     that Mr. Stojic was saying to the others words to the effect of, These

14     weapons are going to be used in Sarajevo to fight the Serbs.  Okay, you

15     follow my question?

16        A.   Yes, I am following.

17        Q.   And you recall Mr. Stojic saying words to that effect to, in

18     particular, General Praljak, don't you?

19        A.   Well, that's logical.  If I'm coming from Sarajevo and if

20     Mr. Bruno Stojic asks me -- well, if he knows me, then it's logical that

21     I would take the weapons back to Sarajevo.

22        Q.   That is entirely logical, and that was what was going to happen,

23     and that is what, in fact, did happen?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   But Stojic -- Mr. Stojic, who knew you and Dragan Vikic, was

Page 37970

 1     saying, wasn't he, in effect, I can vouch for this man?

 2        A.   Yes, I think he could have said something like that.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's all I wanted to clear up with you.

 4             MR. LAWS:  Mr. President, I can see the time.  If that's an

 5     appropriate moment for the break.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

10             MR. LAWS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, just a couple more questions, please, about your trip to

12     Mostar on the 17th, when you brought weapons back to Sarajevo afterwards.

13     All right?

14             You told us something about your recollection being that

15     Mr. Stojic said that he would need to - various words have been used -

16     consult with General Praljak, refer it to General Praljak.  Do you

17     remember that, that part of your evidence?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Can you try and help us with that?  Was the position that

20     Mr. Stojic was saying that General Praljak would know better than him

21     precisely what materiel was available?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.  And when you arrived in Sarajevo, you've

24     told us that your delivery was greeted by people celebrating and by a

25     photograph being taken for the press?

Page 37971

 1        A.   You're quite right, because those were the first weapons or

 2     amongst the first weapons to enter Sarajevo, as far as the

 3     Special Purpose Units of Dragan Vikic was concerned, so there was great

 4     euphoria.  We all appeared.  Now, when I say "all," what do I mean?  The

 5     two of us, Dragan Vikic, the minister, Jusuf Pusina - he was minister at

 6     the time - and some other people.  So we celebrated and had our photos

 7     taken.

 8        Q.   And when the weapons were handed over, is it also right that a

 9     video film was made of that taking place?

10        A.   Yes, the video was taken while we were celebrating, and most

11     probably I brought the tape to Mostar with this piece of paper.

12     Precisely that.  The problem was to get from Hrasnica to Sarajevo.

13        Q.   I just want to stay with the videotape, if I may.  The videotape

14     was used to show people in Mostar, the HVO with whom you'd been dealing

15     in Mostar, that you had, in fact, been as good as your word and had taken

16     the weapons for the use of Dragan Vikic's force in Sarajevo; that was the

17     purpose of that, was it not?

18        A.   You could put it that way, yes.

19        Q.   Well, that's the way I am putting it, and that's actually the way

20     that you would put it as well, isn't it?  You were showing them, Look, I

21     did just what I said, I took the weapons to Sarajevo.  You trusted me,

22     and you were right to trust me.

23        A.   You're quite right.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And that was on the 17th of February.  We've seen the

25     pass dated the 17th of February, and we know that your commander,

Page 37972

 1     Mr. Vikic, wrote the "Hello, Bruno" letter which we don't need to go into

 2     anymore.

 3             Before we leave that shipment, can you tell me how it was that

 4     you got into the city of Sarajevo with the weapons?

 5        A.   From Mount Igman, we let the commander know, Dragan Vikic, when

 6     we had a problem with the BH Army.  Through certain connections, certain

 7     channels, we were allowed to pass, and we reached Hrasnica, where he

 8     organised his own guys from the Special Purpose Units, who transported

 9     the weapons across the airfield to Sarajevo.  I did not do that.

10        Q.   In terms of getting past the Serbs laying siege to the city, that

11     was done by other people?

12        A.   We didn't pass through Serb territory.  The only problem was the

13     airport.

14        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  After that trip that you made to Mostar,

15     you've already been shown that the HVO commander in Sarajevo, Mr. Zelic,

16     wrote a letter to HVO Mostar in which you are mentioned.  And if you'd

17     turn, please, to look at that, it's 2D01195, 01195.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And that document, signed by Mr. Zelic, mentions you as being

20     somebody who could assist in the supply of weapons coming from the HVO in

21     Mostar to the HVO in Sarajevo, doesn't it?

22        A.   I've never seen this document before.  However, I assume that it

23     referred to the weapons that the Commander Vikic wrote about when we

24     returned to Mostar.

25        Q.   Well, that would certainly fit in to the chronology, wouldn't it,

Page 37973

 1     that you come back with your weapons the 17th of February,

 2     Commander Vikic writes a letter saying, Thank you very much, can we have

 3     some more, and then Mr. Zelic is writing this letter on the 25th of

 4     February, which, it's the middle of the page, suggests that it might be

 5     possible to use you, together with your colleague Faruk Drina, to

 6     facilitate the movement of further weapons to the HVO in Sarajevo?  I

 7     appreciate you've never seen it before, but that's the effect of it,

 8     isn't it?

 9        A.   That's what it appears to be, judging by the date, and as I see

10     things, that's what it refers to, those weapons.

11        Q.   Yes, that's right.  And then after the paragraph that mentions

12     you, can you see that Mr. Zelic has written these words:

13             "At the same time, I am suggesting to you meet the requests from

14     MUP RBiH because of the favours they did for us."

15             All right, so that's the HVO in Sarajevo suggesting to Mostar

16     that they help you because you've been helping them.  Do you follow what

17     I mean?

18        A.   Yes, I am following.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not what it

20     says, if I might step in.  That's not what the original says.

21             Would you allow the witness to read the sentence out?  The

22     translation might be a bit different, but could we have the witness read

23     out the sentence as it stands in the original, and then we'll hear what

24     the letter actually says.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Laws, this may be due to a

Page 37974

 1     translation problem.  Perhaps the solution would be to ask the witness to

 2     read the sentence, and then we would have the translation of it.

 3             MR. LAWS:

 4        Q.   You're being invited, sir, to read the sentence that starts, in

 5     the English:  "At the same time, I am suggesting to you ..."  And I think

 6     it's -- I'm not going to try and pronounce it, but it's the paragraph

 7     beginning after the word "Sarajevo" in the middle of the page.

 8        A.   Yes, I can see that:

 9             "At the same time, I suggest that based on the MUP services of

10     the Republic of BiH, that you meet their requirements."

11             MR. LAWS:  Well, I don't know.  In the English, that sounds

12     incredibly similar to the translation that we've been provided with by

13     the Defence, whose document this is.  But if Ms. Nozica wants to address

14     us further on that, may I suggest that now is the time, before we move

15     on.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, nothing more than that.  It was

17     sufficient for me to hear the witness read it out, because listening to

18     your question, I thought you had made another point, and that's why I

19     insisted upon having the witness read the sentence out.  Thank you.

20             MR. LAWS:  No, thank you.

21        Q.   I think we're all clear that what Mr. Zelic is saying is that

22     you, the MUP, have helped them, and as a result, HVO Mostar might

23     consider helping you; yeah?

24        A.   Correct, precisely.

25        Q.   I want just finally, please, to deal with the help that you, the

Page 37975

 1     MUP, have been giving to the HVO in Sarajevo that might have led

 2     Mr. Zelic to be writing about you in those terms.  Do you follow what I

 3     mean?

 4        A.   Yes, I do follow.

 5        Q.   Can you help us with the other ways that you and the HVO had been

 6     cooperating in the struggle against the Serbs?

 7        A.   I personally was in a unit, the Logistics Unit - I said that

 8     before - and my first experiences of leaving Sarajevo were of the nature

 9     that I've already described.

10        Q.   Yes, but this about helping the MUP and the HVO in Sarajevo, the

11     MUP helping the HVO in Sarajevo, and so the HVO in Sarajevo writing, as

12     it were, a character reference for the MUP.  Do you follow what I mean?

13        A.   I do follow what you mean, but I wasn't there at the time.  I do

14     understand, but perhaps --

15        Q.   If you can't help us, sir, you can't help us.  But, in fact, you

16     were there at this time, and this is obviously a letter referring back to

17     events before the end of February, at a time when you were in Sarajevo.

18     And I just wondered whether you could help us with the other ways that

19     the two sides were cooperating in that city.  If you can't, feel free to

20     say so.

21        A.   Well, I think they were cooperating in Sarajevo, the city of

22     Sarajevo.  Yes, they were cooperating, the MUP and the HVO units.  That's

23     common knowledge.

24             MR. LAWS:  Thank you very much, sir.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Laws.

Page 37976

 1             Ms. Nozica, do you have any redirect?

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, three very brief

 3     questions about matters that were raised in cross-examination.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

 5        Q.   Mr. Cengic, can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, that

 6     Mr. Bruno Stojic and Mr. Dragan Vikic worked together in the MUP of the

 7     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina early 1992?

 8        A.   Yes, they did work together.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cengic, please don't speculate.  Tell us if you know for

10     sure.  This is outside the bounds of my examination, but it's a matter

11     raised on cross.  Do you know whether the Croats and the Muslims, back in

12     1992, defended Mostar together from the Serbs?

13        A.   That's what I heard.

14        Q.   And, finally, the Prosecutor asked you a great many questions

15     about any guarantees that you provided as to whether the weapons would be

16     reaching Sarajevo, and I'm asking you now:  Were you in a position to

17     provide any guarantees whatsoever?  Did you have an escort of armed men

18     with you, enabling you to guarantee that no one would seize these weapons

19     from you somewhere along the way?  Did you have any means of guaranteeing

20     that the weapons would reach Sarajevo eventually, when the weapons were

21     finally loaded and left Mostar?

22        A.   There were no guarantees that could reasonably be made.  I was

23     never in a position to offer such guarantees to anyone.

24        Q.   Will you please clarify that a little, sir?  My specific

25     question:  During that trip back, could anyone at all have stopped you to

Page 37977

 1     seize the weapons?  Did you have any armed escort or was it just you and

 2     Mr. Drina driving that lorry with those weapons?

 3        A.   It was just Mr. Drina and me, and we were taking turns driving

 4     the lorry.  Nevertheless, we had the papers that we had been given by the

 5     gentlemen, General Praljak and General Petkovic, so I passed through all

 6     the HVO check-points with no problem at all.  Quite the opposite, in

 7     fact.  They were all excited about this, and we were surprised how

 8     smoothly things were going.  I did have certain problems with the

 9     BH Army, as I said, at Mount Igman.

10        Q.   Mr. Cengic, you have explained that already, but I'm asking you

11     this:  Was there a possibility that the weapons might be seized from you

12     and -- but were you in a position to put up any sort of resistance if

13     anyone had tried to take the weapons?

14        A.   We were in no position at all to resist any such attempts.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

16             Thank you very much, Your Honours.  This completes my

17     re-examination.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank

19     you, on behalf of my fellow Judges, to have come at the request of the

20     Stojic Defence and enable us to get closer to the truth.

21             I would like the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since we have a little time

24     left before we adjourn, I would like to address a personal comment to

25     Mr. Karnavas.

Page 37978

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am very concerned about the

 3     fact that Mr. Prlic is absent.  In the course of my career, I have had to

 4     deal with a great many accused and a great many witnesses.  I have never

 5     faced this situation, i.e., when the accused does not attend the trial.

 6     This has never happened to me before.  I'm fully aware of the fact that

 7     in my country, this could never have happened, but the rules are such in

 8     this Tribunal that this has actually happened.  I feel, from a personal

 9     point of view, to me that is a professional failure, as far as I'm

10     concerned.

11             I don't know what the situation of Mr. Prlic is at this moment.

12     There has been a certification to appeal the decision.  Let's wait and

13     see what the Appeals Chamber decides.  But I am preoccupied by

14     Mr. Prlic's absence.  Sometimes he intervened, and sometimes this person

15     was helpful, because he has a fair command of the English language, and

16     he was able to sort out a few thorny issues, and whenever he intervened,

17     it was to provide us with a solution.  That's not the sole reason for his

18     absence to be a difficulty for us, but he's not here because that is what

19     he wishes, but to me this resounds like a failure.

20             Do you have any information to give us about this, Mr. Karnavas?

21     Can you confirm to us that Mr. Prlic does not want to come back again and

22     attend the trial?

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon again, Mr. President.  Good

24     afternoon, Your Honours.

25             First, let me just say that I'm in daily contact with Mr. Prlic.

Page 37979

 1     From Day 1, he has been engaged in this case.  I should note, actually,

 2     his -- he began preparing, and this case has consumed his entire life,

 3     more or less, since 2001, I think something that perhaps is lost on some

 4     members of the Trial Chamber at times.  They don't realise the stress

 5     that all these gentlemen, in particular Mr. Prlic, have been undergoing.

 6     Nonetheless, he is fully engaged.

 7             He has expressed an interest to, at this stage of the

 8     proceedings, not to be present for a variety of reasons.  And also, as

 9     you well know, recently we filed a very comprehensive motion for

10     provisional release.

11             We were disappointed that after virtually ten days, we learned

12     that the leave was not going to be granted for the excessive word count,

13     something that could have been done, say, within a matter of one day, a

14     few hours.  But, nonetheless, for us this was something that again

15     brought some disturbance to Mr. Prlic's frame of mind, because we thought

16     that we had briefed the issue very comprehensively for the Trial Chamber.

17     The Trial Chamber waited ten days, essentially, before telling us to

18     re-file it, even though the format did conform, that is, the leave, along

19     with the motion.  That's one.

20             Number 2, as you may recall, the story with Mr. Prlic began at

21     the very beginning, when you, Mr. President, lost out to your other two

22     colleagues, who out-voted you when Mr. Prlic asked that he be allowed to

23     have a computer in the courtroom.  It was a computer that he bought, so

24     it wasn't going to cost the United Nations any money.  It was -- there

25     were fully -- security measures were in place.  We would take it and

Page 37980

 1     bring it every day.  But this is a gentleman that has very bad

 2     handwriting, but can type very fast, and he wants to be maximumly [sic]

 3     prepared.  We don't know why the Trial Chamber -- members of the Trial

 4     Chamber found it so disagreeable for Mr. Prlic to have a computer at his

 5     side, not to surf the internet, as he would not be able to, but simply to

 6     assist himself.

 7             So the issue has been -- these issues have been building up.

 8             During the course of the Prosecution's case, there were times

 9     when we had asked for some additional time, which we were not provided.

10     The excuse that was given to us was that the trials have to be -- the

11     trial has to be -- has to move expeditiously.  We disagreed, because

12     there were times when the trial has not moved expeditiously for a variety

13     of reasons, because a trial is a very dynamic process.  Witnesses

14     sometimes do not show up on time, and so on and so forth.  However, there

15     were occasions when we believed that the Trial Chamber could have been

16     more flexible and chose not to.  And I say this very deliberately.  It

17     chose not to.  So there was some disappointment there.

18             When it came to putting on our case, we had asked for a certain

19     amount of time.  We were not given that time.  But, again, recognising

20     the realities of the situation, we made adjustments.  We didn't file for

21     an appeal, because we knew what the Appeal Chamber was going to say

22     anyway, but we made what we believe were some realistic adjustments, and

23     one was to have Mr. Prlic provide a statement, as opposed to testifying,

24     which would have taken five or six weeks, or maybe longer.  And as he

25     indicated when he stood there and he read his statement, that he would be

Page 37981

 1     addressing Mr. Tomljanovic's report, who after all Mr. Tomljanovic is an

 2     employee, and I underscore this, an employee of the OTP, but was treated

 3     as an expert witness.  I don't know how much weight the Trial Chamber is

 4     going to give to that report or to his testimony, but be that as it may,

 5     from Mr. Prlic's position, having read that, and being fully acquainted

 6     with all the events and all the documents, felt it necessary to address

 7     it.  He worked on that for approximately two years.  As you could see,

 8     it's highly footnoted, very well researched.  This is his work product.

 9     He was criticised for turning it into like an expert report.  Well, as I

10     indicated, he has authored approximately ten books, nine or ten books, so

11     he's very well acquainted with the methodology, and he's a man who has a

12     great capacity for work.  So when the Trial Chamber chose not to accept

13     it, obviously this was another blow to his psychological frame of mind,

14     because it gives the impression, and we're talking about perceptions now,

15     that the Trial Chamber is putting form over substance, or I should say

16     form above substance.  In any event, we chose to appeal, and that's the

17     case.  We'll see what happens on that.

18             Now he's indicated that he remains committed to the case, he

19     remains committed to his defence, bleak as it may seem at times, and it

20     does seem bleak, but he also realises that based on your accounting, when

21     you indicated that it would take until approximately next May, and then

22     when you factor in rebuttal, time for closing -- for final briefs and

23     closing arguments, we're looking at approximately 20 more months down the

24     road.

25             Now, this gentleman is in prison.  You can call it "Detention

Page 37982

 1     centre," but it's a prison, and somebody tells you when to wake up, when

 2     to go to bed, when you can have fresh air outside in the courtyard, where

 3     there are fences, and when to stay inside.  He has to be strip-searched

 4     to come here and strip-searched as he goes out, it is a humiliating

 5     process, and one, when you consider that somebody enjoys the presumption

 6     of innocence, one can hardly say that this process, having taken this

 7     long, is actually -- lends itself to that particular presumption.

 8             He's indicated that he wishes to participate in the remaining

 9     portion of this trial while being provisionally released.  The -- as I've

10     indicated, the Lebanese Tribunal provides for that.  This particular

11     Tribunal entertained the notion, although it never came to that point

12     because Mr. Milosevic died, but entertained the notion that the time may

13     come when the Trial Chamber, exercising its wise discretion, could

14     proceed in Mr. Milosevic's absence even if he did not agree to it, and

15     counsel would be imposed on him to take over the case, thereby setting,

16     what I would say, a new low standard for international justice, and that

17     is trial by absentia.

18             In this instance, Mr. Prlic will be waiving his right.  He can

19     participate via the internet, which he cannot do from the UNDU.  He would

20     be able to instantaneously give us his thoughts, albeit there is some

21     delay.  He would be able to access the internet and research, because he

22     does research.  So for all of these reasons -- Judge Trechsel, if I

23     may --

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, Mr. Karnavas.  I am sure you're going to

25     submit this in writing to us, and I think you are --

Page 37983

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  But that was the question.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That was not the question.  You were not invited

 3     to overly present something which you are going to present in writing.

 4     And as we have no time-limit, you may even talk to us for 10.000 words,

 5     and that would be a bit -- not quite, quite correct, I would submit

 6     humbly and with all respect.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.  Well, if I may invite the

 8     Trial Chamber next time to give me like a time limitation, and perhaps

 9     I'll try to live with it.

10             In any event, Your Honour and Mr. President, rest assured that

11     Mr. Prlic is committed to his defence, is well aware of what is

12     happening.  I have daily contact with -- with Mr. Prlic.  He remains

13     hopeful that, at the end of the day, he will receive fair and equal

14     treatment, but I think he has made his decision at this point that he

15     does not wish to be present any further for the remaining of the

16     proceedings.

17             However, having said that, I will convey your concerns, and I

18     will personally go and visit him to address specifically this matter that

19     you have raised, because obviously if you're concerned, we're concerned.

20             And I apologise for taking so much time.  You know, when given

21     the opportunity, I go for it, Your Honours.  I apologise.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas, for

24     answering my question.  Admittedly, my colleagues and I were surprised by

25     the fact that he just left the courtroom following our decision, which we

Page 37984

 1     could not really explain.  You know that I provided a rather long opinion

 2     for the certification for appeal.  Personally, I could understand the

 3     merits of his work.  It's not lost work.  You can technically put it to

 4     us in another way.  Just convey our concern, my concern.

 5             You say that he keeps following the proceedings very closely.

 6     Very well.  That pleases me.  But let's wait and see.  Let's see what the

 7     Appeals Chamber may say.  Sometimes wonders -- miracles may happen.

 8             Ms. Nozica, we're going to have Mr. Buntic next week?  No problem

 9     with him next week?

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  For the time

11     being, I can only inform you that there have been no changes.  I have a

12     commitment to respond to some inquiries - I'm trying to avoid a secret

13     discussion on this - certain inquiries about documents that will be used

14     in the examination of the Petkovic Defence's next witness.  What I wish

15     to say is at the very latest by the day after tomorrow, sometime in the

16     morning, I will be informing all the parties about cutting the document

17     list somewhat short.  We have three hours to examine this witness.  I

18     believe it's impossible to use all of the documents that we have in our

19     list right now.  I will try to put some work in tomorrow to cut the list

20     short, and the day after tomorrow I will be duly informing all the

21     parties as to which documents will eventually be used for our next

22     witness.

23             Thank you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you know that when

25     there are a lot of documents, you can also file written submissions for

Page 37985

 1     their admission.  You know that, don't you?

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know that, Your Honour.

 3     We shall try to cut back to spend less time for both our

 4     examination-in-chief and re-examination.  We are trying to rationalise,

 5     as you see, and everything that we can't do while a witness is here, we

 6     shall be filing specific motions afterwards.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me thank

 8     everybody.

 9             As you know, we shall reconvene on Monday at 2.15.  Failing other

10     topics today, the hearing stands adjourned.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.31 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th of March,

13                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.