090323IT

Page 38379

1 to let us know and raise your hand.

2 You have taken the oath a few moments ago. Therefore, you are no

3 longer a witness of one of the parties. You are now a witness of the

4 court, which means that you may not have any contact anymore whatsoever

5 with Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel.

6 Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon, Your

8 Honours. Good afternoon to everybody else in the courtroom.

9 Examination by Ms. Nozica:

10 Q. [Interpretation] And good afternoon to you, Mr. Makar.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, before I start with my questions, I'm going to give

13 basic information from your CV, which are important for this testimony of

14 yours.

15 Mr. Makar, you went to the military academy for the armed forces

16 of the JNA in Belgrade from 1966 -- I apologise, 1967 to 1971.

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. From 1971 until 1985, you were an active officer in the Yugoslav

19 People's Army.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You left the Yugoslav People's Army on the 13th of May, 1992, by

22 reporting to the district staff of the Territorial Defence of Tuzla where

23 you were appointed chief of communications in the staff; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In September 1992, after the 2nd Corps of the BH army was

Page 38380

1 established in Tuzla, you were the assistant -- performed the function of

2 assistant Chief of Staff for operations and training; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 18th of July, 1993, you were appointed Chief of Staff of

5 the 2nd Corps; is that right?

6 A. Yes. Correct.

7 Q. And you remained in that post until the 25th of December, 1994,

8 when you were appointed the deputy commander of the 2nd Corps?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you performed different functions within the army of the

11 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you did so until the 31st of March,

12 2000, when you retired.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Mr. Makar, I'm going to ask you some introductory questions about

15 how the war in Tuzla began, where Tuzla is located, how the defence was

16 organise in the Tuzla region, so general facts to show where you come

17 from and what happened in that area during the war?

18 Now, could you please explain to the Trial Chamber when the

19 conflict started in the Tuzla area and who provoked them?

20 A. Your Honours, the conflicts in the Tuzla area started soon after

21 a referendum that was held with respect to the independence of the State

22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, more specifically, in the broader area of the

23 Tuzla district. The conflicts began on the 8th of March with an attack

24 by the Yugoslav People's Army and Serbian paramilitaries on Zvornik.

25 Q. Mr. Makar, these conflicts with the JNA and the paramilitary

Page 38381

1 Serbian forces, how long did they go on for in the Tuzla area?

2 A. I would like to make a correction. The Yugoslav Army. It was no

3 longer the Yugoslav People's Army, so just the Yugoslav Army, and

4 conflicts in the area went on until the end of the war or, let's say, the

5 signing of the Dayton Accords.

6 Q. Mr. Makar, and how was the defence of the Tuzla area organised

7 after the first clashes and conflicts or immediately prior to them

8 breaking out?

9 A. The Your Honours, the defence of the Tuzla region was organised

10 in the District Staff of the Territorial Defence, and under their command

11 were 13 Territorial Defence Staffs of the municipalities. At the

12 beginning, smaller units of the Territorial Defence were formed, and

13 later on they grew into bigger units so that already in May and June of

14 1992 we had brigades. Later on, to cut the story short, at the end of

15 1992, in September, the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina took a decision

16 to establish five corps. One of those corps was the corps in Tuzla,

17 which was the 2nd Corps, and with the formation of the corps all the

18 forces of the Territorial Defence, as well as the HVO forces in the area,

19 were included and were subordinate to the corps.

20 At the time, we had eight operative groups in the corps, and let

21 me explain, Your Honours. An operative group is a military formation of

22 the rank of a division, and those eight operative groups, of which I'd

23 just like to mention Operative Group 1, had the 107th HVO Brigade and the

24 108th HVO Brigade and the 21st Brigade of the BH army. They all came

25 under that Operative Group 1.

Page 38382

1 Yes, I will do my best to slow down.

2 Operative Group 5, Tuzla, had the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Tuzla Brigade of

3 the BH army within its ranks, and the 115th Brigade of the Croatian

4 Defence Council.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two short follow-up questions.

6 On the 8th of March, 1992, where were you, you yourself?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of March, 1992, I was in

8 Tuzla, and it was the 17th Corps of the Yugoslav Army at the time.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second follow-up question: If

10 I understand correctly, the fifth group in Tuzla, in September 1992,

11 brings together the 115th Brigade of the HVO and part of a brigade of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, Judge, you're

14 quite right. There were three brigades of the BH army and one brigade,

15 the 115th, of the HVO.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that from March to

17 September 1992, in Sarajevo, President Izetbegovic knows that in Tuzla

18 there is an armed force that is made up of two elements, the HVO and the

19 brigade of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, to clarify, you have just said that Operative Group 5

24 in Tuzla had within its composition three brigades of the army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and one HVO Brigade.

Page 38383

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. I'd like to go back for a moment to Operative Group 1. You

3 mentioned the 107th, which was also an HVO brigade.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned the 107th and 108th Brigades of the HVO. Would you

6 tell us where these brigades were from so that we could have a clearer

7 picture later on when we speak about them?

8 A. Your Honour, the 107th Brigade of the HVO was established on the

9 territory of a town called Gradacac. When it was formed, it was called

10 the MHVO, which means the Muslim Croatian Defence Council. The 108th

11 Brigade of the HVO was established on the territory of Brcko, in the area

12 of the town of Brcko.

13 Q. Mr. Makar, were there other operative groups which included HVO

14 brigades when the 2nd Corps was formed?

15 A. Your Honour, to continue where I left off, after Operative Group

16 5 we also had Operative Group 7 which was on the territory of the

17 municipalities of Maglaj, Tesanj, Zepce, and that Operative Group

18 included the 201st, the 202nd, the 203rd, and the 204th brigades of the

19 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the 110th Brigade of the HVO which was

20 also known as the Usora Brigade.

21 To go back for a moment, Operative Group 2 on the territory of

22 Gracanica-Doboj also had within its composition a brigade of the BH Army

23 and the 109th HVO Brigade.

24 Q. Mr. Makar, please explain to Their Honours how the HVO was

25 established in the Tuzla area?

Page 38384

1 A. The HVO on the territory of Tuzla was established on a broad

2 territory as a regional organisation sometime in June 1992.

3 Q. And tell me, please, after this regional organisation which

4 you've just mentioned, was a Croatian Community established in the Tuzla

5 area and when, approximately?

6 A. Your Honours, I know that for certain. At the head of this

7 regional political organisation of the HVO was Mr. Pero Vasilj, whom I

8 knew personally, and later on, sometime around September, I think, on the

9 territory of the municipalities of Tuzla, Zivinice, Banovici, and Lukavac

10 a Croatian Community called Soli was established headed by Mr. Zeljko

11 Pestic who was its president.

12 This Croatian Community of Soli joined the Croatian Community of

13 Herceg-Bosna soon afterwards, sometime in October or November 1992, to

14 the best of my knowledge.

15 Q. Mr. --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I'm very much

17 interested in the creation of the Croatian Community of Soli who --

18 which, according to you, joined the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

19 And to your knowledge, those people getting together, what were their

20 motives? Was that because they were given an order to get together, or

21 was it because they felt themselves that given the situation, they had to

22 get together?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you that I

24 knew personally most of the people who established this Croatian Defence

25 Council, as it first was called, and then the Soli community. They were

Page 38385

1 not following somebody's orders. It was because of their assessment of

2 the situation and its further development that they felt they should get

3 together in order to protect the interests of the people living in the

4 area, not just Croats but also Muslims and others, because I know for

5 certain that when the HVO was established, representatives of other

6 parties participated in that, not just of the HDZ, and also people who

7 were not members of any party.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Makar, can you tell me, please -- well, you've just told us

10 about the establishment of the Croatian Community of Soli. Do you know

11 what happened to the regional HVO community which, as you said, was

12 established in June 1992?

13 A. With the establishment of the Croatian Community of Soli, this

14 regional organisation of the HVO was abolished. And as I said, the

15 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna included Soli, Bosanska Posavina,

16 Usora, Central Bosnia. All of these joined up into a common

17 organisation.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, you've already answered Judge Antonetti's question and

19 my question about how the HVO units were established. Can you now

20 explain to the Court, according to your information, when did these --

21 or, rather, when were these HVO units established on the territory of

22 what was later call the 2nd Corps in Tuzla?

23 A. Your Honours, I know that for certain, because I was there in the

24 area. I know that smaller units of the HVO were established in the first

25 half of 1992. I know that sometime in March 1992, for instance, a unit

Page 38386

1 was established in Zivinice called the Zivinicki Sokolovi. I know that

2 in the village of Drinica a friend of mine, Zvonko Juric, established a

3 unit called Propatrija. I know that near Lukavac there was a small

4 village called Bistravac [phoen], where a small HVO unit was formed.

5 Q. When mentioning Mr. Zvonko Juric, you mentioned the village

6 Dremca [as interpreted] which has not enter the record.

7 A. Correction, Drinica.

8 Q. Well, that can be corrected later on.

9 Mr. Makar, let us look at some documents illustrating what we've

10 just been talking about. Please look at my binder. I see that the usher

11 has given it to you. The first document is 1D -- I think it's an

12 exhibit. 1925. Please take a look at the binder and tell me when you've

13 found the document.

14 A. Your Honour, document 1D1925 confirms what I said about the

15 establishment of the regional community of the HVO on the territory of

16 south-east Bosnia. You can see the date on page 4, which shows that this

17 happened on the 12th of June, 1992.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, one can see for this document that on the 12th of

19 June, 1992, several representatives of political parties and of citizens

20 established the Croatian Defence Council as a political organisation, and

21 the goals are listed. Do you remember the name of the president of this

22 first Croatian Defence Council established in June 1992?

23 A. Your Honours, I've already mentioned that I remember this very

24 well. Unfortunately, he has died. His name was Pero Vasilj.

25 Q. This document is already an exhibit. We have seen it before.

Page 38387

1 Please look at the second document in my binder, 2D --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document, as far as I can

3 see, but if I'm mistaken please do not hesitate to correct me, but as far

4 as I can see the political parties which set up the HVO originally in

5 this region, you have the HDZ, the SDA, and then you also have the MBO,

6 and it seems that there were other political parties as well, but there

7 are two Muslim components, the SDA and the MBO. Are you in agreement

8 that these political parties created the HVO in this region?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are right. Those

10 were the three parties, but they were also representatives of the

11 citizens, the people living in the area. I know that the MBO means the

12 Muslim Bosniak Organisation. That was the name of the party. And I knew

13 Mr. Salih Burek. He was a professor. Personally he was at the head of

14 the party, and I think he participated in this. The Party of Democratic

15 Action, the SDA, Professor Dr. Salih Kulenovic was their representative.

16 I know him personally as well, and I believe that he also participated in

17 this. So yes, I can confirm that what you have just said is correct.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You spoke

19 about the fact that the Croatian Community was called Soli, and as we

20 have a general testifying here, I didn't want to go too deeply into

21 political issues.

22 Just for the sake of the transcript, I want to say that the

23 conclusion on the establishment of the community of Soli is already an

24 exhibit, and its number is 1D2260, 1D2260, and I will be asking the

25 witness about things he has direct knowledge of.

Page 38388

1 Q. So please look at 1D1262 now. 2D. Not 1D but 2D1262. Just a

2 moment, Mr. Makar, please. I'll put questions to you, and I think we'll

3 proceed faster that way.

4 Mr. Makar, these are minutes from the 5th session of the

5 Presidency of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna held on the 17th of

6 October in Travnik. On the last page of this document are the signatures

7 of the attendees, and it says that this happened on the 17th of October,

8 1992. As we don't have the year on the first page, that's why I'm

9 pointing this out.

10 And here we have a list of those who attended the session.

11 Please look at number 37. We see that there were some persons from Tuzla

12 present. That's on page 2 of the document. And now we have the last

13 page on e-court, but let's go back to page 2, please.

14 So here we have a list of names, the names from Tuzla under

15 number 37. Do you know the persons who attended this session of the

16 Presidency of the HZ HB?

17 A. Your Honours, I know Mr. Bozo Vilusic really well. I visited his

18 father at his home about a month ago. As for Mr. Zeljko Pestic, I did

19 know him but I haven't met him for a long time now. I think I also knew

20 Mr. Ivica Antic, but I'm not sure about him.

21 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at point 18 of the agenda, item 18,

22 which is considering decisions -- the decision on the joining of the

23 communities of Bosanska Posavina, Usora, and Central Bosnia. And let's

24 look at this discussion under point 18 which is on page 15 in the

25 Croatian version and 17 in English.

Page 38389

1 Mr. Makar, so item 18, considering decisions on joining, and we

2 have three communities, Bosnian Posavina, Central Bosnia, and Usora.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. Ms. Nozica, unfortunately at least

4 my copy of the English version does not have pagination, so maybe you

5 could -- could tell us the -- the number that figures on the bottom right

6 of the document. 0040 something or 50 something.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] 2D, as I see in e-court, 79-0056. I

8 apologise to Their Honours. My copy does have pagination, but this

9 document was translated again because there was something that had to be

10 corrected. So now --

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have the page. Thank you very much. No

12 problem.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. [In English]

14 Okay.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vilusic says here he informs those present

16 that in north-east Bosnia in Tuzla, an HVO was established, the Croatian

17 Community of Soli, and for objective reasons they have not been able to

18 deliver their application to join. So now they want to join the unified

19 HZ HB, a single HZ HB, and he goes on to report that within the scope of

20 this community are municipalities, Banovici, Lukavac, and Zivinice.

21 Would you please look at the end. This is on the next page, both

22 in Croatian and in English, and it says here proposal to join the

23 following Croatian communities to the unified community, Bosnian

24 Posavina, Usora, Central Bosnia, the Soli community, and Sarajevo, and

25 this has been adopted unanimously. The Soli community, just to have it

Page 38390

1 correct in the transcript, it says the Soli community, S-o-l-i. Very

2 well. We'll correct this later on.

3 Mr. Makar, could you please identify whether this Soli community

4 is the one that you mentioned, the one from Tuzla, and whether you have

5 any knowledge that this is how things developed in September 1992 -- or

6 in October 1992.

7 A. Your Honours, I can confirm this because I spoke about this.

8 Here we have the precise date when the Soli community from Tuzla joined

9 the community of all the Croatian communities of Herceg-Bosna.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Makar. We'll now go back to military issues.

11 Mr. Makar, under whose command were the HVO units acting on the

12 territory of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army in Tuzla?

13 A. Your Honours, the HVO units acted under the command of the

14 2nd Corps, and let me clarify, these units were in the chain of command

15 in all operative and combat issues and combat activities.

16 As regards logistics, organisation, and the establishment of

17 those units, the appointment of officers to those units, they were under

18 the command of the Main Staff of the HVO.

19 Q. Mr. Makar, would you now look at the following document, P10887.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] My apologies. I'm still on

21 document number 2D -- D1262.

22 Witness, when I look at the list of the people who took part in

23 the meeting of the 17th of October, 1992, I see Mr. Bozo Rajic, who is

24 the vice-president or vice-chairman of the HZ HB, and deputy of head of

25 defence. I have a question. Who was the head of defence? I'm going to

Page 38391

1 explain this. Mr. Rajic, who was the deputy head because he's

2 vice-president, or because he would be head of the Department of Defence

3 or deputy of the Department of Defence or something like that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Mindua, I can

5 see this document, and I can see what you're referring to, but I can't

6 explain it really because I didn't know of these relationships at the

7 time. All I know is that later on Mr. Bozo Rajic was the minister of

8 defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He occupied that post. That is what I do

9 know, and that is what I can confirm.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Perhaps I can clarify

12 this. This is a document that you commented on. It is a meeting of the

13 Presidency of the HZ HB. The witness just testified about people from

14 Tuzla whom he knew, and at that time the witness was in the command of

15 the 2nd Corps of the BH army in Tuzla, and he says that the rest of that

16 structure is something that is not known to him.

17 Q. Now, I asked for P10887, which is the next document. It is in

18 fact a map, and I hope you've found it. A map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

19 it shows the separation lines dating to July 1993. And I've selected

20 this map, Mr. Makar, because we showed it to the previous witness who was

21 asked to indicate certain areas and some places were mentioned which came

22 under the 2 be corps.

23 So I'd like to ask the usher now to place this map on the ELMO

24 this time so that the witness can mark the map.

25 But just briefly, Mr. Makar. Just tell us -- you'll have to turn

Page 38392

1 to the ELMO, the overhead projector, and please mark what the 2nd Corps

2 incorporated, and please bear in mind that we're talking about 1992, from

3 September onwards, up until the end of 1993 and beginning of 1994. So

4 could you mark that on the map, all the areas incorporated by the

5 2nd Corps. It needn't be very precise, but just to give us an idea in

6 the courtroom of how things stood geographically.

7 A. I have a question, Your Honours. Am I being asked to state the

8 places as municipalities, or just the borders?

9 Q. Well, I asked you the question, actually, so just mark in the

10 places.

11 A. In the area of defence of the 2nd Corps we had the following

12 places: Part of the Brcko municipality and Gradacac municipality,

13 Gracanica; Doboj Municipality, part of it; Srebrenik, the whole of it;

14 part of Lopare municipality; part of the Zvornik municipality; most of

15 the Kalesija municipality and --

16 Q. While you're saying this, could you place an X on the map by each

17 of those places that you've mentioned.

18 A. All right I'll start again then. Brcko, Gradacac, Srebrenik,

19 Gracanica, Doboj, Lopare, Zvornik, Vukovac, Zvinesik [phoen], Kalesija,

20 Kladanj, Olovo, part of the Zavidovici municipality, Tesanj, and Maglaj,

21 and part of the Zepce municipality. I think that's the lot.

22 Q. Yes. I was looking to see if you had incorporated Tuzla.

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Could you just initial the document so that we know that these

25 markings were made by you.

Page 38393

1 A. [Marks]

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, although this

3 document has a P number, because we have this witness's markings may it

4 be given a C number?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give it an IC

6 number. I think it's easier.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The document just marked by

8 the witness shall be given Exhibit IC960. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In order for us to try

10 and understand because everything is rather complex and difficult to

11 grasp, as far as you're concerned, you are of Croat origin?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was born in Varazdin, a

13 town in Croatia.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, a

15 Croat like you, you were part of the Main Staff of the 2nd Corps of the

16 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, you understood

18 that correctly. I was the Chief of Staff and later on the deputy

19 commander of the 2nd Corps of the Army of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I know, you were not

22 the only person in that case. There were other Croats in the army of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, weren't there?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, you're

25 quite right. In the 2nd Corps -- the first command of the 2nd Corps of

Page 38394

1 the BH Army was my friend Mr. Zeljko Knez, who was also born in Croatia.

2 The assistant for security issues was Mr. Anto Pranjic. He was also a

3 Croat. He was born in Tuzla. The assistant for moral guidance was

4 Mr. Dragan Kovacevic. The commander of the 107th HVO Brigade was

5 Mr. Mijacevic. And in the Main Staff, as well of the Republic of BH

6 Army, one of the three members of the top command was Mr. Stjepan Siber,

7 born in Gradacac. And if need be, I can tell you other Croats who

8 occupied top posts in the units of the BH Army.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What you have said

10 is on the transcript. That is precious information to understand

11 everything.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Makar, I'd like to ask you now, and we're still dealing with

14 the units as we've just seen the 2nd Corps or territorially speaking what

15 it looked like. 2D1154 now, please, which is the next document so that

16 we can see what brigades came within the 2nd Corps.

17 Mr. Makar, we see the date here, 1994, but before that, before

18 that date, can you explain to the Trial Chamber what all the Xs mean

19 above the rectangle -- rectangle number 2 where it says "Tuzla"? What is

20 this schematic in fact? What does it show?

21 A. Your Honours, these markings are the standard way in which the

22 units were marked. The four stars were units of the rank of a corps.

23 The number on the left-hand side was the number of the corps, and in this

24 particular case the 2nd Corps, and the name underneath, Tuzla, was the

25 2nd Corps, Tuzla, the 2nd Tuzla Corps. Three stars or Xs above the OG 1

Page 38395

1 rectangles and the others were the divisions according to NATO standards.

2 All this is according to NATO standards.

3 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Makar, this was the situation in 1994,

4 right, as far as the units under the 2nd Corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

5 army in Tuzla are concerned. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what

6 units there were in 1992 and 1993 until the signing of the Washington

7 Agreement? Was the situation somewhat different?

8 A. Your Honours, the situation in 1992 and 1993 was indeed somewhat

9 different. At the time, the 2nd Corps had within it Operative Group 7,

10 and I've already spoken about that. And within the composition of

11 Operative Group 7, you had four brigades of the BH Army and the 110th

12 Brigade of the Croatian Defence Council. Then in OG 1, Operative Group

13 1, there was just one brigade of the HVO and that was the 108th. And in

14 OG 5, there was no 251st Brigade of the BH Army.

15 So in conclusion, let me say that with the additions I've just

16 presented, or amendments, this organisation of the 2nd Corps existed

17 throughout, from 1992 right up until 1994, which is the schematic shown

18 here with the exceptions I've just mentioned.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I'm curious about

20 this. How is it that in an organisation chart we have Operation Group 7?

21 It is not mentioned on this document. Why is that the case?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'll

23 explain that to you. Operative Group 7, for most of the war in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was physically cut off from the rest of the territory

25 covered by the 2nd Corps. It was difficult to command those units.

Page 38396

1 Now, with the reorganisation of the BH Army, which took place

2 sometime in 1993, at the end of 1993, pursuant to an order from the

3 Supreme Command of the BH Army, this Operative Group stepped outside the

4 2nd Corps composition; that is to say, from -- for exclusive operative

5 and military reasons. It was no longer within the 2nd Corps composition.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Makar, since at the very beginning of your testimony you said

8 that in OG 1 -- that OG 1 included the 107th Brigade Gradacac, can we

9 correct that too in the situation in 1994 -- or, rather, in 1992 and 1993

10 was that brigade under Operative Group 1, as you've already said?

11 A. Yes, I have already said that. That brigade did come under the

12 Operative Group 1 in 1992 and 1993.

13 Q. Thank you. I now have some questions as follow-ups to

14 Judge Antonetti's composition [as interpreted] with respect to the ethnic

15 composition of the BH Army, and what I'm interested in is this: Can you

16 tell us something about the national or ethnic composition of the HVO

17 brigades which were within the composition of the 2nd Corps? What was

18 the ethnic make-up in the HVO brigades?

19 A. Your Honours, yes, I can give you a precise answer to that

20 question because it's something I know about very well. The ethnic

21 composition of almost all the units of the 2nd Corps was mixed. There

22 was a mixed composition. There were Muslims and Croats and even some

23 Serbs and others. The individual units of the 2nd Corps as the 2nd Tuzla

24 Brigade, for instance, they had an ethnic composition which was almost

25 identical to the ethnic composition of the population census of 1991.

Page 38397

1 The 108th brigade of the HVO, which we've already mentioned, was a

2 characteristic example because it had a mixed ethnic composition for the

3 commander, the deputy, and three battalions with predominantly Muslim

4 population or, rather, members, soldiers, and three battalions with

5 predominantly Croatian soldiers, and the situation was similar in the

6 107th HVO Brigade except that there was the reverse ratio; that the

7 commander, Mijacevic, was a Croat, the deputy was Sadam Imamovic, who was

8 a Muslim, and the members of the brigade were mixed, of mixed

9 composition.

10 Now, as to the composition of the corps command, I've already

11 spoken about that. That was also mixed.

12 Q. Mr. Makar can we just take a look at two documents to bear out

13 what you said about the ethnic composition of the HVO brigades and units.

14 Look at 2D1152 now, please, and just briefly explain to Their Honours

15 what that is about?

16 A. Your Honours, this is a document in which I see the signature of

17 Mr. Tomo Tokic, whom I knew personally.

18 Q. Just a moment, please. For the transcript, Mr. Makar. It was

19 not recorded, the number was 2D1152. You can carry on now. I apologise

20 for interrupting you.

21 A. Your Honours, this document is signed by Tomo Tokic whom I knew

22 personally, and I can also see that the document dates to July 1992, and

23 I can also see that it is a list of individuals recorded for

24 reinforcement of HVO units from Tuzla which was established and deployed

25 to act in cooperation with the district Territorial Defence headquarters

Page 38398

1 of Tuzla.

2 Q. Mr. Makar, not to dwell too long on this document, you've looked

3 through it, so I'd just like to ask you to confirm to the Trial Chamber,

4 if you can, that the names with circles around them or the numbers with

5 circles around them, that they are Muslim and Bosniak names. Just the

6 names. We're not going to Muslim or Bosniak but Muslim or Bosniak names.

7 Do you agree there? Am I right in saying that?

8 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that quite definitely because I

9 know how many members -- how many Muslims were killed from the 115th

10 Brigade, and some of them are on this list as well.

11 Q. You can look at the next document, please, 2D1153, and just

12 explain to us there again what the document is in relation to the first

13 document we saw.

14 A. Your Honours, I think that this document is a continuation of the

15 previous document looking at the numbers of the people there listed and

16 looking at the signature, which is once again that of Mr. Tomo Tokic.

17 Q. Thank you. You spoke, Mr. Makar, about the manner in which HVO

18 units maintained contacts with the Main Staff, as you said, and you said

19 that appointments and personnel affairs were dealt with in Mostar. So

20 I'll ask you the following: Do you know in general how appointments were

21 made in the HVO units which were part of the 2nd Corps?

22 A. Your Honours, I know for certain that appointments of persons to

23 particular positions in the brigades of the HVO which were part of the

24 2nd Corps were made by the Main Staff of the HVO.

25 Q. Very well. So let's take a look at this. Look at 2D1530.

Page 38399

1 That's the first document. 2D1530. This is not the document in e-court

2 but you have found it, sir.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This is a decision relieving someone of their duty, and it's

5 signed by Mr. Bruno Stojic as the head of the Defence Department. Can

6 you confirm whether you know the persons who were relieved of their duty

7 by this document? Do you know them, and does this document testify to

8 what you've just said, that appointments, dismissals, and relieving

9 people of their duty was -- were all done in Mostar, the Defence

10 Department?

11 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm this. I know these people.

12 Mr. Zeljko Grgic is someone I know personally, and I still meet him

13 frequently. I also know Mr. Pero Lovric. I might know the others, too,

14 but I know for certain that I know these two.

15 Q. Well, let's look at the following document, 2D1531. This is an

16 appointment made to the 115th Brigade, Zrinjski, in Tuzla, and it's

17 signed in 1993 by Mr. Stojic, and we see here that he is appointing nine

18 persons, and it says at the end that other officers and employees in the

19 brigade are to be appointed according to need by the brigade commander

20 who is duty-bound to report this to the Defence Department of the HVO of

21 the HZ HB.

22 So first of all, I'll ask you did you know the persons appointed

23 to these posts, numbers 1 to 9? Do you know some of them?

24 A. Your Honour, I know Mr. Marko Mijatovic, Mr. Mijo Cajic,

25 Mr. Mijo -- sorry, Mr. Slavko Pecirep, and Mr. Josip Velfing. I know

Page 38400

1 them personally, and as for Mr. Mijatovic and Mr. Cajic, together with

2 commander of the 2nd Corps, I was at the celebration of the anniversary

3 of the 2nd Brigade last year.

4 Q. Mr. Makar, from the last part of your reply, can we confirm that

5 those people actually carried out the duties to which they were appointed

6 by this document?

7 A. Yes, I can confirm that these persons did carry out these duties.

8 Q. It says here on page 2 that the commander of the 115th Zrinjski

9 Brigade was authorised. Who was the commander at the time?

10 A. The brigade of the 115th Zrinjski Brigade from the beginning to

11 the end of the war was Mr. Zvonko Juric.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, do you know what the other contacts were like between

13 the HVO brigades which were subordinated to the 2nd Corps and the Main

14 Staff? Do you know of any other forms of contact or other forms of

15 cooperation between the Main Staff, the Defence Department, and the HVO

16 brigades which were subordinated to the 2nd Corps?

17 A. Your Honours, I have already pointed out that the HVO brigades

18 were subordinated to the command of the 2nd Corps in operative and combat

19 activities, but as regards other military issues such as logistics,

20 appointments, and other similar issues, they were subordinated to the

21 Main Staff so that the HVO brigades and their commanders and other

22 commanding officers regularly communicated with the Main Staff and the

23 Defence Department in Mostar.

24 Q. Mr. Makar --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on this document

Page 38401

1 which concern the 115th Brigade of the HVO unless I'm mistaken this

2 brigade is part of Operative Group 5. That's right. I've just checked.

3 When Mr. Stojic, on the basis of this document, dismisses

4 Mr. Marko Pavicic and relieves him of his duties, when he does this, I

5 assume that a report was drafted by the authority of the 115th Brigade of

6 the ABiH. That was addressed to Mr. Stojic to dismiss Mr. Marko Pavicic.

7 It's not Mr. Stojic who meddles in the internal workings of the 2nd

8 Corps?

9 A. Your Honour, this is correct. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

10 a similar principle. The Defence Departments dismissed and appointed

11 officers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in units and brigades of the

12 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, they did not interfere in any way,

13 command other duties of these brigades, in this case the the 2nd Corps,

14 so that Mr. Bruno Stojic as head of the Defence Department did this for

15 the brigades of the HVO.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As far as you know

17 Mr. Stojic was the head of the Defence Department, and as such did not

18 have the authority to say no. If the ABiH asked him to dismiss Mr. Mirko

19 Simic, head of the finance department, he dismissed him, or could he say

20 that he did not agree?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can say that

22 appointing and dismissing people to various posts in the units of the HVO

23 was exclusively within the purview of the Defence Department of the HVO.

24 The 2nd Corps never complained about any of the appointments or

25 dismissals made in that way, but we were informed of all of them and we

Page 38402

1 knew what appointments and dismissals had been made.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall fine tune my question.

3 Let's take the case of Mr. Mirko Simic. I don't know who this person is.

4 It's number 4 on the list. I know that he was in charge of the budget

5 and all financial matters relating to the brigade. When Mr. Stojic

6 dismisses him, he dismisses him because it's the ABiH that has asked him

7 to do so. Yes or no?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no. That's not

9 correct.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why does he dismiss him?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know why. The

12 chief of the financial service in one of the brigades in the corps was

13 relieved of his duty, although I was the Chief of Staff in that corps,

14 but there were 35 brigades there. So with all due respect to Mr. Mirko

15 Simic, that is a low-level officer. The level is too low for me to know

16 the reasons why. We did not interfere in the appointments and dismissals

17 of those persons who were considerably lower down in the military

18 organisation.

19 In the 2nd Corps command, we did not even interfere in some

20 appointments at the rank of chief of the financial service in one of my

21 brigades, for example, because this was not within the purview of the

22 corps commander. He appointed officers at brigade level and the brigade

23 commander had his own powers as did the Defence Department, and I think

24 the same principle applied in the Croatian Defence Council.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I don't know if I'm

Page 38403

1 not mistaken when I say that, by answering this way you support the idea

2 that between the HVO and the ABiH things were so inter-related that the

3 Defence Department was, ex officio, in the position to appoint or dismiss

4 officers even if these were lower-ranking officers without the ABiH

5 intervening in any way.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly,

8 let's assume that Mr. Stojic had wanted to dismiss you for whatever

9 reason, could he have done so?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think I

11 understood your question really well, but certainly Mr. Stojic could not

12 have done that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why is that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I and officers at my level,

15 at my rank, were appointed by the Defence Department and the Main Staff

16 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, as far as the

18 higher-ranking officers at your level were concerned, Mr. Stojic couldn't

19 do anything at all, but as far as lower-ranking officers were concerned,

20 he could dismiss and appoint the former.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what

22 precisely were the powers of the Defence Department of the HVO and

23 Mr. Stojic and up to what level and what officers he could dismiss and

24 appoint, because that was not something I dealt with or was interested in

25 at the time.

Page 38404

1 In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were precise rules as to

2 what the Main Staff could do, what level of officers they could appoint

3 and dismiss, and what the brigade commanders and lower-ranking officers

4 could do. I think it was the same in the HVO. And this has to do

5 with --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: He could dismiss and

8 appoint the latter.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Excuse me, the witness did not

10 finish his answer. He was interrupted. He did not finish the sentence,

11 "and this has to do with," and then you interrupted. Please, please do

12 not do this if possible. Let him finish the sentence. Okay?

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw Judge Antonetti

14 pointing at Mr. Praljak, and I intervened because I wanted to put my

15 question before that because I think there is confusion arising from the

16 question put by Judge Antonetti.

17 At page 32, in line 17, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked about

18 appointments in the 115th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Witness, please, can you say once again very concisely, when it

20 comes to appointments made by the Defence Department in Mostar, what

21 units did these appointments relate to? Was it only the HVO units which

22 were part of the 2nd Corps?

23 A. Your Honour, His Honour Judge Trechsel just pointed out that I

24 was interrupted in the middle of my sentence. Appointments and

25 dismissals, the ones mention here and in general, in the brigades and

Page 38405

1 units of the HVO, were exclusively within the competence of Mostar;

2 whereas, appointments and dismissals in the units and brigades of the

3 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were exclusively within the competence of

4 Sarajevo, that is, the Main Staff.

5 Q. Witness, I apologise to you. We have circled around this a lot.

6 I think had this been stated earlier, there would have been less

7 confusion. I don't know whether Mr. Praljak wanted to say anything else?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want to clarify

9 something because I do not quite understand answer from the witness, but

10 perhaps you can give us some clarification.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, witness --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But not clarify as a witness.

13 You're just going to clarify the situation.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I don't want to testify,

15 Your Honour. I'm always being told this. I don't see that I'm

16 testifying. But please ask him. It's very important for you to clarify

17 what is operative and combat subordination or resubordination of one army

18 to another or units from one army to other units, and what is retaining

19 logistics, staffing policy, personnel, and so on. And is that how it

20 works in all the forces of NATO and so on? So this is something that has

21 to be ultimately clarified. Resubordination in combat and operations

22 while retaining the autonomy of the army coming from France or any other

23 country which is part of an alliance, because that is the essence of the

24 proposals discussed later on the 15th of January and so on.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this

Page 38406

1 clarification.

2 In the question that I asked earlier on, this was this issue that

3 I wanted to bring about when I was talking about the interrelation

4 between both armies. General Praljak talked about the resubordination of

5 an army and -- towards another, and you haven't really touched upon this

6 issue, hence my question earlier on.

7 Would it be correct to say that in February 1993, the 115th

8 brigade of the HVO had been subordinated to the ABiH?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Mr. Praljak said

10 precisely the same thing that I said, but perhaps you didn't note that

11 properly. It's in the transcript, and I said quite literally what he

12 just said, that the brigades of the Croatian Defence Council were

13 resubordinated to the 2nd Corps of the BH Army Corps in the operative and

14 combat sphere, and as the Chief of Staff, or, rather, the corps

15 commander, I was not interested in who was the head of the financial

16 service in that brigade if it was in operative and combat terms working

17 properly under our command.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I wonder whether I understand this

19 or correct -- I think I -- mainly, I do understand it, but perhaps you do

20 not know the structure of the competencies within the HVO and Mostar.

21 The Defence Department was competent as far as the chiefs of

22 services in the staff were concerned, medical service, security, and so

23 forth, because they formed part of the Ministry of Defence.

24 Was he also competent with regard to commanders within the HVO

25 Brigade? Do you know that or is that something that you did not bother

Page 38407

1 about?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel, I

3 don't know that much about that topic, and you've said it precisely. I

4 don't know the relationships between the Main Staff of the HVO and the

5 Defence Department that well. I think they were responsible for

6 appointing brigade commanders of the HVO as well.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, thank you very much.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have to take a

9 break, but the question from my colleague was at a different level than

10 my question which had to do with the subordination. The main issue was

11 to find out whether the HVO brigades had been resubordinated to the ABiH.

12 This is this is really what is at hand here, this issue of

13 resubordination, I would like to know whether there was a document coming

14 from the Main Staff of the ABiH or of the HVO, to your knowledge of

15 course, a document stating that the 115th brigade was a part, whether

16 forever or just for a period of time, of this 2nd Corps. Was there a

17 document and, if so, have you seen this document?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

19 any such document existed, because from the beginning of 1992, I was the

20 assistant for operations and training, and later on the Chief of Staff of

21 the corps, and so my prime task was to deal with combat operations, and

22 that is why I was in the field engaged in combat operations. These other

23 questions were in the administrative domain and had to do with personnel,

24 cadres. The corps commander dealt with those matters together with his

25 assistants for personnel affairs and organisational affairs. So I can't

Page 38408

1 confirm that because I don't know if any such document existed. And for

2 my part, what was essential as far as I was concerned was that those

3 brigades carry out their combat orders that they received from the

4 command of the 2nd Corps.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So according to you, you were

6 working on the ground. You had the 115th Brigade at your disposal. Now,

7 whether this 115th brigade had been subordinated or how it had been

8 subordinated or how the department of the defence of the HVO was working

9 with the Main Staff of the HVO this -- this was not part of your

10 knowledge.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I'm not sure, I wouldn't like

12 to speculate.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. We're

14 going have a break of 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall resume. Just a point

18 of clarification for tomorrow's hearing. Since we have a Plenary Session

19 which will start at 2.30 -- at 12.30, will start at 12.30 and finish at

20 1430 or 1400, in order for us to be prepared, we will start this hearing

21 at 14.30, 2.30 p.m.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, now we have to clarify at least three points. Now,

24 for the transcript I'd like to say that on page 22 of today's testimony

25 and today's transcript, lines 2 to 7, you said in answer to my question

Page 38409

1 that all the HVO brigades which were within the composition of the

2 2nd Corps acted under the command of the 2nd Corps in a combat and

3 operative terms, and in the logistics sense, organisational and

4 administrative sense, they were under the responsibility or authority as

5 you said of the Main Staff.

6 Now, because of the series of questions that you were asked by

7 the Judges, could you once again confirm whether you stand wholly by what

8 you said earlier on in your testimony?

9 A. Your Honours, yes, I do stand wholly by what I said earlier on

10 and what Ms. Nozica has just repeated and summarised.

11 Q. Judge Antonetti afterwards asked you whether there was a document

12 about this to the effect that the HVO brigades which were within the

13 composition of the 2nd Corps in combat terms, whether they were

14 subordinated to the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, and you said that you

15 didn't know whether any such document or decree existed.

16 Now, I'm asking you whether you as someone who was a high-ranking

17 individual in the command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, whether you

18 know that the 2nd Corps -- or, rather, the BH Army commanded those units?

19 A. Your Honours, I certainly do know that the 2nd Corps did command

20 those units. And let me repeat, in combat operations they carried out

21 the combat tasks and assignments just as the BH Army brigades did. Let

22 me make that clear now by quoting an example.

23 At a certain point in time, a smaller unit of the 115th Brigade

24 of the HVO left part of the battle-field, and I as Chief of Staff at that

25 point in time of the corps, I engaged the military police of the BH Army,

Page 38410

1 and they arrested and took those soldiers into custody and having spent a

2 night in prison, the next day they carried out their tasks.

3 Q. In line -- or, rather, page 41, line 8, it should read -- did you

4 say that was November of what year? The 115th Brigade, you said, is that

5 right, of the HVO, or the 115th Brigade of the BH Army, which? I'm

6 referring to your last answer?

7 A. They were members of the 115th Brigade of the HVO.

8 Q. All right. That's fine. We've cleared that up. And one more

9 explanation linked to the appointments we've mentioned so far. We saw

10 the appointments and how people were relieved of duty in the 115th HVO

11 Brigade and that was in 2D1530. So we're going back and 2D1531; right?

12 A. Yes. That's precisely right.

13 Q. Now, can you confirm, please, Mr. Makar, that all the

14 appointments and when people were relieved of their duties were pursuant

15 to proposals from the command of this brigade?

16 A. Yes, I can confirm that because that's what the practice was, and

17 that was what the practice in the BH Army units was as well.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, we left off discussing command for the 2nd Corps

19 and communications between the HVO of the brigades who were within the

20 2nd Corps. Did you have and do you have any knowledge and experience

21 about the following: That certain parts of other brigades, other HVO

22 brigades, from the HZ HB came onto the territory of the 2nd Corps as

23 reinforcement either to the 2nd Corps of the HVO brigades which belonged

24 to the 2nd Corps?

25 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that. Smaller parts of the HVO

Page 38411

1 units from the broader area around Mostar and the Main Staff, did come to

2 the area of defence of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army as reinforcement in

3 the very difficult combat operations, and if there's enough time, I can

4 also quote some examples where I took part personally.

5 Q. Mr. Makar, if -- when these units arrived in the territory of the

6 2nd Corps, and you say you have examples where you took part personally,

7 can you tell us who commanded them? Who was in command in the area of

8 responsibility of the 2nd Corps?

9 A. They were smaller units of a platoon level, and to explain to

10 Their Honours that means about 30 men, 30 soldiers. And when arrived in

11 the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, defence of the 2nd Corps,

12 they were subordinated to the brigade in whose area they were active, and

13 by that same token they were under 2nd Corps command.

14 Q. Did you personally command those units? Have you got any

15 personal experience?

16 A. Yes. I can say unfortunately I do have personal experience in

17 that. It was sometime at the end of 1992 when I was up at the front line

18 of the fighting that was taking place in the area of Markovic Polje and

19 Laniste. It was in the area of our 107th Brigade, and as reinforcement

20 from the Mostar area, a smaller unit numbering about 30 men arrived.

21 They were well-trained soldiers, and right next to me during the fighting

22 some were seriously wounded. And I can quote another example which I

23 happen to remember just now, where in the area of defence of the 108th

24 Brigade and the 21st Brigade of the BH Army, Mr. Ante Roso and Mr. Niko

25 Lozancic brought in a platoon of specials of the HVO into the area of

Page 38412

1 Islamovac near Brcko where there was heavy fighting going on, and I went

2 up to the front line with them, into the front line, and unfortunately

3 next to me two of those soldiers were killed by my side.

4 Q. Now that you've mentioned the 108th Brigade, it was the HVO 108th

5 Brigade; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to communication and the

8 communication lines, the HVO, the brigade, Main Staff, and Defence

9 Department, let's look at 2D00439, the next document, please. We have a

10 request here from Mr. Bruno Stojic dated the 20th of May, 1993,

11 requesting complete information on the situation in Tuzla and Brcko. And

12 I'd like us to move to the second document now, please, or, rather, the

13 second page of this document where we have a response dated the 21st of

14 May, 1993, signed by the commander. It is the 115th Zrinjski HVO Brigade

15 which was within the composition of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, and it

16 is signed by Zvonko Juric.

17 Can you first confirm for Their Honours that Mr. Juric was indeed

18 the commander of this brigade? Do you know that personally?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. Mr. Zvonko Juric was the commander of the

20 115th Brigade of the HVO.

21 Q. Mr. Makar, would you explain to the Trial Chamber -- well, we

22 have a report -- or, rather, a piece of information dated the 21st of

23 May, 1993. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances in

24 which this document was compiled and whether you, yourself, were in

25 Mostar beforehand and provided information about the events taking place

Page 38413

1 at that time to the representatives of the Defence Department?

2 A. Your Honours, I can give you an explanation. Looking at this

3 document, it was probably compiled during the very heavy fighting that

4 was going on the battlefront in Posavina, north of Tuzla. Before that,

5 sometime at the end of April and the beginning of May, I happened to be

6 in Mostar, and I informed Mr. Stojic, Petkovic, and Praljak of the very

7 difficult situation that we were facing over there in our area.

8 Now, I didn't know about this document at the time, the one we're

9 looking at just now, but looking at it now I assume that after my visit

10 to Mostar and after having informed them of the very difficult situation,

11 Mr. Stojic must have asked the commander of the 115th HVO Brigade to

12 inform him personally about the situation.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Makar, in the middle of that document, just above

14 point 3, it says:

15 "However, there is a lack of MTS, materiel and technical

16 equipment, as well as a full logistical support which can have strategic

17 consequences and destabilise the entire battle-field."

18 Were you aware of this situation at that time, and did you

19 discuss it previously with the representatives, as you say, with

20 Mr. Stojic, Petkovic, and Praljak?

21 A. Your Honours, the situation with respect to MTS and the lack of

22 it was chronic, if I can use that term. Throughout the war, there was

23 always a lack of MTS, a shortage, and the opposite side has had endless

24 resources which we always lacked. So I was at the end of April and

25 beginning of May in Mostar precisely for that reason, to try and secure

Page 38414

1 replenishment with MTS.

2 Q. Mr. Makar, in point 5 it says in this document that the political

3 and security situation in the Tuzla region was stable, that there were no

4 conflicts with the BH Army, and that the 2nd Corps command completely

5 honoured the agreement reached in Zagreb on the 25th of April, 1993, and

6 pertains to the articles dealing with (A), that the BH Army and the HVO

7 will keep their own separate identities and command constitutions, and

8 the ARBiH are equally legal armies, and that the ABiH and HVO have joint

9 command for the district of -- that the Joint Command for the district of

10 Tuzla is still not established because General Halilovic did not appoint

11 two of his officers. So this agreement could not have been implemented.

12 Can you confirm that that was the situation in Tuzla and that the

13 information set out here is correct?

14 A. Yes, I can confirm that, and that throughout the war the

15 situation in Tuzla and further afield in the territory covered by the

16 2nd Corps was as has been described and that what Mr. Zvonko Juric says

17 here is quite correct.

18 Q. I see. Thank you. As you have just touched on the main topic of

19 your testimony, which is procurement of equipment and materiel, can you

20 explain to Their Honours how in terms of logistics the 2nd Corps was

21 supplied with equipment and materiel, both the corps as a whole and the

22 HVO units which were a part of it.

23 A. Your Honours, the 2nd Corps, in order to engage in combat

24 activities, procured equipment and materiel in several ways. One way was

25 through the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, directly from

Page 38415

1 Croatia. The other way was through the Ministry of Defence of the

2 Republic of Croatia and through the Grude logistics base. The third way

3 was from the logistics base of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Visoko.

4 The fourth way was directly from the supplies of the HVO in the Grude

5 logistics base. The fifth way was through logistics centres of the BH

6 Army in Zagreb, and the logistics centres of individual brigades and

7 municipalities in Zagreb. And the last way was by direct donations of

8 certain equipment and materiel for the 2nd Corps.

9 Q. As you've mentioned various sources of supplies of equipment and

10 materiel for the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, can you

11 tell us from which source you received the most equipment and materiel?

12 A. We received most of the equipment and materiel for the 2nd Corps

13 from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia and the Grude

14 logistics base.

15 Q. Please explain to Their Honours how the first contacts were

16 established and with whom regarding procurement of material and

17 equipment, either with the HVO or the logistics base in Grude. Who

18 established these contacts?

19 A. Your Honour, the first contacts were established by the commander

20 of the 2nd corps, Zeljko Knez, and then these contacts were continued by

21 Hazim Sadic, General Hazim Sadic, who was later the corps commander.

22 Q. You spoke about the first commander of the 2nd corps,

23 Mr. Zeljko Knez. Until when was he the commander of the 2nd Corps?

24 A. Mr. Zeljko Knez was the commander of the 2nd Corps until February

25 1993. He then received an order from the Supreme Command Staff of the

Page 38416

1 Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina appointing him military

2 attache of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the embassy to the Republic

3 of Croatia, but as far as I know, this order was never implemented in

4 practice.

5 Q. So as far as you know, he never became the military attache of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Croatia. Does that mean that in February he left

7 the duty of the commander of the 2nd Corps?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. He never became a military attache but he

9 left in February.

10 Q. Can you just tell us who was appointed in his place?

11 A. Hazim Sadic was appointed in place of Zeljko Knez. Up to that

12 point in time, he had been deputy corps commander and he became acting

13 corps commander at that point. He was acting commander until the 18th of

14 July, 1993, when he was officially appointed corps commander.

15 Q. Mr. Makar, you mentioned Mr. Sadic and Mr. Knez regarding

16 supplies of materiel and equipment. In 1992, were there any contacts

17 with the Ministry of Defence in Croatia in order to obtain medical

18 equipment and materiel?

19 A. Yes. We had quite a few war hospitals which needed medicines and

20 other supplies, so Mr. Hazim Sadic, sometime in August 1992, established

21 direct contact with Mr. Ivo Prodan, who was a physician and a head

22 doctor, and he was in the health administration of the Ministry of

23 Defence of Croatia, and based on his contacts with Mr. Sadic, we received

24 the medical equipment and supplies we needed for our war hospitals and

25 other needs.

Page 38417

1 Q. Could you now look at 2D1038, please. It's the next document.

2 It's an order. We have it in e-court now. Could you please very briefly

3 say whether this is a command that has to do with these contacts you

4 mentioned?

5 A. Your Honour, I think this is the order stating that Mr. Sadic was

6 to carry out this task and to be allowed to move about freely while

7 performing it.

8 Q. Mr. Makar, after these contacts established by Mr. Knez and

9 Mr. Sadic, did contacts continue, and was other equipment and materiel

10 obtained apart from medical supplies for the 2nd Corps, weapons and so

11 on?

12 A. Yes. These contacts continued. We received large amounts of

13 medical material for our war hospitals because we had large numbers of

14 casualties in our combat activities.

15 Q. Mr. Makar, as you spoke of different ways of procuring materiel

16 and equipment, you said one of these ways was directly from the Ministry

17 of Defence of the Republic of Croatia. So I would now like to ask you to

18 look at a few documents and comment very briefly and then we'll deal with

19 all of them together as a set. So please look at 2D1046, please.

20 A. Your Honours, this is a dispatch note for equipment and materiel,

21 and you can see that this was sent from Zagreb through the Ministry of

22 Defence for the 107th Brigade of the Gradacac HVO, and we see who the

23 driver was who received these goods.

24 Q. Mr. Makar, as it says here that it's for the 107th Gradacac

25 Brigade, can you explain to Their Honours whether this equipment was

Page 38418

1 being sent to the 107th Brigade only and why is the 107th Brigade

2 mentioned here?

3 A. Your Honours, the 2nd Corps when entering its area had a

4 check-point through which all equipment and material entering the corps

5 area had to pass. Pursuant to an agreement with the HVO, all the

6 equipment being sent to the 2nd Corps was addressed in the documents to

7 the 107th Brigade of the HVO or the 108th Brigade or the 115th Brigade,

8 and it was the corps that disposed of all the equipment and distributed

9 them where it was most needed.

10 Q. This agreement which you say was in place at the time, did it

11 refer to equipment and materiel arriving directly from Croatia as well?

12 A. Your Honours, this pertained to all the equipment and materiel

13 arriving, and the reason it was done was so that this equipment could

14 pass more easily through areas controlled by the HVO.

15 Q. Mr. Makar, you yourself said that you went to Mostar to the main

16 logistics base in order to obtain equipment and materiel. Did the

17 2nd Corps of the BH Army issue approval for safe passage when obtaining

18 this MTS through areas controlled by the BH Army?

19 A. Yes, Your Honours, precisely so. The documents had to be

20 addressed in this way, because there was a war going on, and there were

21 many local commanders around who didn't always comply with orders coming

22 from above. So in order to ensure safe passage, we from the 2nd Corps

23 also issued our documents for the passage of this equipment and materiel

24 through the territory held by the army of -- the Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 38419

1 Q. Mr. Makar, let's look at the following four documents which also

2 relate to what we are just discussing. 2D1093. Can you just confirm

3 whether this was material for the 2nd Corps arriving from Zagreb?

4 A. Yes, I confirm that this was being sent from Zagreb to the

5 2nd Corps, and you can see that this was received by

6 Mr. Edin Delibegovic. He was the assistant commander of the 2nd Corps

7 for procurement.

8 Q. Very well the next document 2D1150.

9 A. Your Honours, I confirm that this is a similar document with

10 Mr. Edin Delibegovic taking a delivery on behalf of the 2nd Corps.

11 Q. 2D1145?

12 A. Your Honour, I also can confirm that this document deals with the

13 supply of various types of equipment and materiel for the needs of the

14 2nd Corps, and it came from Croatia.

15 Q. And document 2D1040. It's dated the 16th of February, 1993, and

16 signed by the chief of the department of the Ministry of the Interior, a

17 service for the protection of the constitutional order. Can you very

18 briefly comment on this document.

19 A. We can see from this document that the chief of the department,

20 Mr. Cedomir Dijanovic, is asking for approval for transport of equipment

21 and materiel, asking that it be allowed to leave Split, and that the

22 equipment be delivered to its destination in Tuzla and Gradacac. He goes

23 on to mention that he will inform the commander of the 2nd Corps,

24 Mr. Zeljko Knez, and the commander of the Gradacac battlefront,

25 Mr. Miocevic in order for them to take delivery of the equipment and

Page 38420

1 materiel.

2 Q. Does this document confirm that the equipment arrived on the

3 territory of the 2nd Corps as you explained?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And finally can we confirm how these weapons, when they arrived

6 in the 2nd Corps, how they were distributed?

7 A. The weapons which arrived in the 2nd Corps were recorded by the

8 logistics services of the corps, and then distributed to the brigade or

9 Operative Group which needed them most.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Mr. Makar, with respect to the

11 document 2D01040, you have confirmed that the document shows that these

12 MTS were actually delivered. I read at the -- at the bottom of the

13 letter as follows:

14 "We are going to duly inform you on the time of the team's

15 arrival as well as about individuals who are the members of the team."

16 It does not seem to me that this shows that it was actually

17 delivered. On the contrary, it announces the delivery and announces

18 confirmation. Now, maybe I am in error and have misunderstood something,

19 but perhaps you can explain. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you understood

21 correctly. I didn't say that these particular supplies arrived. I was

22 only saying that the document shows the procedure and the methods used

23 when transporting this equipment. Approval was necessary, and after the

24 approval was obtained, the 2nd Corps was informed. I can't say whether

25 this particular equipment arrived, so, yes, you understood this

Page 38421

1 correctly.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Thank you. The record does not

3 actually render this the same way, if you look at 51, page 51, lines 11

4 to 13, but you have clarified now. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

6 you. I don't know if you'll be able to answer it. If you don't answer

7 my question, I shall keep this document and put the question to other

8 witnesses who will come here and who come from the Republic of Croatia in

9 the event that someone can answer my question, but maybe you are able to

10 answer my question.

11 On looking at this document 2D1040, I realise something. This

12 document stems undoubtedly from the Republic of Croatia and the Interior

13 Ministry, but I see that it says here "Department for the protection of

14 the constitutional system," and this raises a question.

15 Was this department only designed to ensure the protection of the

16 Republic of Croatia, or did -- or was this department competent to

17 protect the constitutional system of other republics? Can you shed some

18 light on this or don't you know anything about it?

19 A. Your Honour, I really can't say what the system of organisation

20 was and whether the service for the protection of the constitutional

21 system, where it was, but as -- well, actually, I assume that it was

22 there for the protection of the constitutional system of the Republic of

23 Croatia, because it says the Republic of Croatia in the heading.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

Page 38422

1 Q. Mr. Makar, let's move on to another kind of procurement of

2 materiel and equipment for the needs of the 2nd Corps. Can you explain

3 to Their Honours whether the 2nd Corps in a certain period of time obtain

4 MTS from Bosnia and Posavina and, to the best of your knowledge, how this

5 was agreed and with whom? After that we'll look at some documents.

6 A. Your Honours, we obtained MTS from Bosanska Posavina, also from

7 the depot of the HVO for as long as this was possible. Later on, when

8 due to combat activities engaged in by the Chetnik forces, our

9 connections with Bosnian Posavina were cut off. We could no longer

10 obtain MTS from there, and then we could only obtain it from Herzegovina.

11 Q. Would you now take a look at document 2D1075. Mr. Makar, once

12 again let's see whether this refers to MTS for the 2nd Corps and its

13 procurement, and can you just tell us whether what it says here about the

14 107th Brigade, that that was in fact pursuant to the agreement that you

15 spoke about earlier on?

16 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that. This document, as we can

17 see, is about MTS coming from Bosanska Posavina, and we can see that it

18 is addressed to the 107th HVO Brigade. However, from a detail here which

19 I've just noticed, what I said is confirmed, and that is that the

20 materiel and resources were handed out by the 2nd Corps where they were

21 most needed. And would you focus on number 4 for that, please, number 4,

22 point 4 of this document, where it says round of bullet, 100 millimetres,

23 T-12. And since I'm well-versed in these matters, a T-12 cannon is

24 something that the 107th HVO Brigade never had. And as you can see, a

25 hundred grenades arriving for that particular cannon, gun, which confirms

Page 38423

1 that in one shipment of this MTS, materiel merchandise were intended for

2 other units of the corps as I've already said.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I have quite a number of documents to get

4 through, and you can just tell me whether you confirm that this was done

5 in the same way and the next document is 2D1076.

6 A. Yes, I confirm that that is correct. It's the same way, method.

7 Q. Now 2D1044.

8 A. I can confirm that, too, that it was done in the way I've

9 described.

10 Q. 2D1045 is the next document.

11 A. Yes, I confirm that too.

12 Q. 2D1047 is next.

13 A. Yes, I can confirm that. The principle is the same.

14 Q. And 2D1068.

15 A. Yes, I can confirm that for this document as well. The same

16 principle was applied for the procurement of MTS.

17 Q. Now, linked to these documents, can you confirm that these

18 weapons did indeed reach Tuzla and were distributed in the way you've

19 described to us?

20 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that, that the weapons and MTS

21 did arrive at the 2nd Corps and that it was later used in the manner I

22 have already described.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, do you know whether this MTS was issued out for the

24 needs of the 2nd Corps in conformity with permission and knowledge of the

25 Main Staff in Mostar?

Page 38424

1 A. Yes, I can confirm that, because when the MTS arrived to the

2 brigades of the HVO, they used their own lines to send reports to the

3 Main Staff of the HVO, and from that we were able to see which resources

4 actually arrived.

5 Q. Mr. Makar, a moment ago you explained to us all the ways and

6 channels in which the MTS reached the 2nd Corps, and you said that you

7 procured them also from the logistics base at Grude, and you explained

8 that this was done in two ways. Could you repeat how the MTS arrived in

9 Grude and how you procured them?

10 A. Part of the MTS would arrive through the Ministry of Defence of

11 the Republic of Croatia and Grude and was then sent on to the 2nd Corps,

12 and part of the MTS, the other part of the MTS, came directly from the

13 depots in Grude and arrived in the 2nd Corps.

14 Q. Very well. So that was a warehouse and depot under HVO control;

15 right? That's quite clear.

16 A. Yes. That was the main logistics base of the HVO of Grude, and

17 that's quite clear. It was the HVO.

18 Q. Now, since we're talking about the first way in which the

19 resources were sent from MORH, and you took them over, or, rather, the

20 2nd Corps took them over in Grude, for that let's just look at four

21 documents and I'll ask you for your comments.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

23 question for you. In the last document which is dated -- dated the month

24 of April, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there an arms embargo at the time?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm a

Page 38425

1 professional soldiers, and in peacetime and wartime I adhered to the

2 principle that politics determines and the army carries things out. So

3 it's not my place to comment the questions of embargo. That's a

4 political decision.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand your question. As

6 inside the 2nd Corps, were there international observers? Were there any

7 liaison officers part of the 2nd Corps who were in contact with you, with

8 your colleagues, or with higher-ranking officers?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, in the

10 area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, from the beginning of the war

11 until the end of it, there were always international observers present.

12 First of all it was UNPROFOR, the military forces, then observers from

13 the European Community and then other organisations as well, and as the

14 Chief of Staff, it was one of my duties every Tuesday, whenever I wasn't

15 in the field, to hold meetings with those organisations.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the international

17 observers saw, for instance, that elements of the 107th Brigade had 20

18 RPG 7s that were brand new, did they tell you that they were a little bit

19 surprised by that, or did that seem quite normal? In the document, 24

20 RPGs were supplied.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm in

22 a difficult place here to answer the question, because we're dealing with

23 members of the international forces, after all, who performed their

24 duties honourably, the assignments they were given, and as to their

25 conduct in the field, that very often depended on certain local

Page 38426

1 conditions. But if you would like, I can give my own comments, and they

2 would be this: After meeting them over a period of time and holding

3 meetings with the representatives of the international community over a

4 long period of time, when we came into closer contact and I got to know

5 them better, they told me loud and clear -- they said, "General, sir, we

6 are here first and foremost to implement the policies of our governments.

7 Secondly, we are here because it's well paid. Thirdly, is our role to

8 assist you."

9 Well, I apologise for being frank, but that is an exact rendition

10 of what I was told by them.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Nozica.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Two questions after Judge Antonetti's questions. First of all,

14 Judge Antonetti says if the observers were to see these 24 RPGs in the

15 107th HVO Brigade, I think it would be well to repeat once again. Those

16 mortars, did they come to the 107th HVO Brigade, or did they arrive at

17 the 2nd Corps and then were distributed according to need, which?

18 A. All the MTS that arrived from any source whatsoever had to go

19 through just one route. Physically, it was not possible to bring them in

20 through any other route, so that it was the 2nd Corps which received all

21 the MTS through that one route and kept complete records of their

22 arrival. After that, let me repeat, we would distribute these resources

23 to the parts of the front where they were most needed regardless of what

24 brigade, whether it was the HVO Brigade or BH Army brigade.

25 Q. Mr. Makar, another question. Following on from the questions

Page 38427

1 asked by Judge Antonetti, what would have happened to the Tuzla region,

2 which as we have seen is a very large area, had you not procured weapons

3 in the way in which you have described to us now during your testimony?

4 Would the area have been defended from the Yugoslav Army and Serb

5 paramilitaries? Would it have been successful in defending itself?

6 A. Your Honours, perhaps I wouldn't be sitting here today, because

7 one thing is certain, the territory could not have been defended

8 successfully without those weapons. And I can also say that in the NATO

9 school that I attended after the war, we were there together with Serb

10 officers, and we had mutual discussions and discussed matters like that,

11 that they had a thousand shells during the war on one day and we had ten.

12 Had we not even had those ten shells, then quite certainly the territory

13 would look quite different today to what it does.

14 Q. Mr. Makar, you mentioned in response to my questions -- well, you

15 said that the MTS came from the Ministry of Defence of Croatia to the

16 logistics base in Grude, and then you took the MTS over from there. Have

17 I understood you correctly?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Now look at document 2D1155 and tell us whether this is a

20 document confirming this manner of procurement, 1155 is the document

21 number.

22 A. Yes, Your Honours I've found the document and that is

23 confirmation of what I've been talking about, because we can see that the

24 MTS transport was okayed from Imotski-Grude-Tuzla.

25 Q. The next document is 2D1090. Is that a document confirming the

Page 38428

1 fact that those resources went to the 2nd Corps?

2 A. Yes. That is what it confirms, precisely, because there's an

3 order saying that it should go through the central logistics base Grude,

4 and we can see that it is from the Ministry of Defence of Croatia.

5 Q. Mr. Makar, let's stay with this document for just a moment. It

6 says here for the requirements of the 115th HVO Brigade Zrinjski, and it

7 is signed by Edin -- or rather, it's taken over by Edin Delibegovic, the

8 MTS was taken over by Edin Delibegovic, and here you said that he was a

9 logistics man of the 2nd Corps; am I right?

10 A. I'm not sure what document you're referring to.

11 Q. 1090 is the one we're talking about, and it's just been called up

12 on e-court. Do you have it on your screen.

13 A. No mention is made of the 115th Brigade there.

14 Q. 1090 on e-court. Perhaps you're looking at the wrong document.

15 HVO, the 115th Brigade.

16 A. No, no mention is made of the 115th Brigade there. I'm sorry.

17 Q. It says for the HVO the 115th Brigade. Look at the next document

18 then, please. It says 10 -- I do apologise. It's my mistake. 1091.

19 Yes, my mistake. It's a mistake on the document. 1091; is that right?

20 That it was going to the 115th Brigade and signed by the logistics

21 operator?

22 A. Well, no mention is made of the 115th there, either.

23 Q. 1091 is the document number, as far as I can see.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you must be making

25 a mistake. The witness is extremely precise. 115 isn't in there.

Page 38429

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. The mistake is on

2 the document that I have before me, but let's move on.

3 Q. Look at 2D1091, please. Is that the same method of procurement?

4 A. Yes, that is correct. The document does show this method.

5 Q. Right. Now look at 1095 the next document, please.

6 A. That's all right too. The same principle applied.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Makar, you stated that had when it came to

8 the Grude logistics base, part of the MTS arrived from Croatia, and the

9 other part you took over directly from the warehouse and depot at Grude.

10 Now look at 2D1048, the next document, please. 2D1048.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we have your comments on the first document so that we can

13 look at the rest?

14 A. Yes. This is the principle I talked about, directly for the

15 central logistics base in Grude from HVO resources from the 2nd Corps.

16 Q. We have to go back a bit because it says the 107th Brigade

17 Gradacac. Does that mean that regardless of that title that it all went

18 for the requirements of the 2nd Corps?

19 A. Yes, right.

20 Q. Let's now look at 2D1050, the next document, please.

21 A. I can confirm that the same way of procurement was applied. The

22 warehouse was Gabela, but it came under the control of the central

23 logistics base at Grude.

24 Q. Mention is made here of the 107th and 108th Brigade, and the date

25 is rather important. It is the 26th of February, just like in the

Page 38430

1 previous document. Well, the previous document was the 8th and now it's

2 the 26th of February, 1993. Right, Mr. Makar?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. The next document is 2D1049.

5 A. Yes, that's the same method of procurement. We can see that from

6 the document.

7 Q. Now, the next document is 2D1070, and in this document the date

8 is the 26th of March, 1993. What about those MTS? Do they come from

9 Grude for the requirements of the 2nd Corps?

10 A. Yes, that's true. We can see that the Main Staff gave permission

11 for the MTS to be taken from Grude and that they were sent to the

12 2nd Corps.

13 Q. Now look at 2D1069 which contains two such dispatch notes.

14 A. Yes, I confirm that the same thing holds true there, and the date

15 is the 27th of March. This is an example of the same principle, MTS for

16 the 2nd Corps.

17 Q. And the same applies to the 28th of March; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now look at 2D1059. Here it says HVO Gradacac, 107th Brigade.

20 Yes, correct?

21 A. Yes. Correct. I can see in the heading where the equipment is

22 coming from. It's the same method of procurement I mentioned.

23 Q. Well, let's look at 2D1043. This approval was signed by

24 Mr. Praljak on the 20th of February, 1993. Can you see any familiar

25 names here, and do you know whether this MTS really was sent for the

Page 38431

1 needs of the 2nd Corps?

2 A. Your Honours, this document again confirms that this is how HVO

3 materiel was dispatched to the 2nd Corps. I know Mr. Esad Hanic. He was

4 the logistics man in the 107th HVO Brigade in Gradacac.

5 Q. And let's look at 2D1041, signed by Mr. Stojic, and it's

6 addressed to Ismet Mehmedovic from Gradacac. In other words, he is given

7 safe conduct, and can you tell us whether this was also materiel sent for

8 the 2nd Corps?

9 A. Yes. This approval again shows how MTS was dispatched from the

10 HVO depot for the 2nd Corps. I don't know Mr. Ismet Mehmedovic

11 personally. It says here that he was from Gradacac, and I believe he

12 was.

13 Q. Mr. Makar, mention is made in these documents of Mr. Praljak and

14 Mr. Stojic. Was there an agreement with these gentlemen about the

15 procurement of MTS from the logistics base for the needs of the

16 2nd Corps?

17 A. Your Honours, I've already spoken about this. This agreement did

18 exist from the first contacts of Mr. Zeljko Knez, and later on until the

19 end of the war this is how the agreement was implemented.

20 Q. Mr. Makar, you said that you personally participated in

21 procurement of MTS. Please tell us briefly if you went to Mostar, how

22 many times did you go and at what times, approximately? When?

23 A. Your Honours, I did go to Mostar in order to make sure that

24 supplies of MTS were sent. First -- the first time I went was in

25 February 1993 or thereabouts. Then I visited Mostar again in March,

Page 38432

1 about a month later, and my third visit took place sometime in late April

2 or early May 1993.

3 Q. Mr. Makar, when you arrived in Mostar for the first time, as you

4 say, in February 1993, who was with you? On whose orders did you go

5 there, and who did you meet when you arrived in Mostar? With whom did

6 you discuss the possibility of taking over delivery of MTS?

7 A. Your Honours, I was with two other officers from the 2nd Corps,

8 Mr. Ivan Mijacevic from the 107th Brigade of the HVO, and Mr. Osman

9 Puskar, the commander of Operative Group 2. My departure to Mostar was

10 based on an order there commander, Hazim Sadic, and the purpose was to

11 ensure the delivery of MTS.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, when you arrived in Mostar, how long did you stay

13 there and with whom did you discuss procurement of MTS?

14 A. Your Honours, I can't remember precisely how long we stayed,

15 maybe two or three days. The team from the 2nd Corps which I mentioned

16 had talks with representatives of the HVO in Mostar, Mr. Praljak,

17 Mr. Stojic, Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Bozo Rajic. I think that's it.

18 Q. We can now look at several documents confirming what you've just

19 said. 2D1103.

20 A. Your Honours, I remember this authorisation authorising me to

21 conduct talks and sign contracts regarding logistics on behalf of the

22 2nd Corps, and it was signed by the commander Hazim Sadic.

23 Q. The next document is 2D1105.

24 A. Your Honours, this sort of approval was always issued allowing us

25 to use an all-terrain vehicle and a car to go to Mostar.

Page 38433

1 Q. Could we have 2D1102.

2 A. Your Honours, this was evidently issued while we were there on

3 the 23rd of February after we had conducted talks. Mr. Bozo Rajic was

4 the minister of defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Mostar,

5 with its headquarters in Mostar, issued an order that I and the two

6 officers who were with me be allowed safe passage and correct treatment,

7 and that the person accompanying the MTS also be granted safe conduct.

8 Based on our talks, we received certain quantities of MTS. I think these

9 were two or three truckloads which we brought to the 2nd Corps.

10 Q. Could you now look at 2D1111.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I didn't understand

12 this document 1102. It says Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of

13 Defence, Mostar. The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had an office in

14 Mostar?

15 A. Your Honour, the minister of defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16 Mr. Bozo Rajic, was then in Mostar. I don't know how this was regulated,

17 but in my view it shows that the minister of defence of the Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was where the Defence Department was, the Defence

19 Department of Herceg-Bosna, and this shows that this was not in dispute.

20 There was nothing contentious there.

21 If you allow me to go back, even now after the war certain

22 ministries are dislocated and are relocated elsewhere outside Sarajevo.

23 Certain sessions of the cabinet are also held outside the capital, but if

24 a minister is in another location, he's still the minister of that state.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking you this question

Page 38434

1 because it's the first document of this type that I see, and this

2 document seems to establish the fact that the government of Sarajevo had

3 a post in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you say that the Ministry of Defence

4 was relocated.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't assert this,

6 but that was my understanding while I was there, and I see the same in

7 this document.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you went to Mostar,

9 did you pay a visit to Mr. Bozic Rajic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, absolutely. I

11 mentioned that he attended all our talks. And after our talks I spoke to

12 him separately. Excuse me.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where was his office?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely what office

15 belonged to whom, but after talking in a room where we were all together,

16 he invited me to a separate room, and I remember that on the door it said

17 "Minister of Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18 Mr. Bozic Rajic." I even think he gave me his visiting card with that

19 title. I think I might have kept it.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in his office was there a

21 flag from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't recall

23 that, because at the time what mattered to me was to obtain MTS. So I

24 didn't pay attention to these details.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Nozica can

Page 38435

1 continue.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Makar, you say you were received by the minister of defence,

4 Mr. Bozic Rajic. Please clarify to Their Honours the following: You had

5 arrived from the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Did you consider him to be the minister of defence of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Let's now look at document 2D1111, which also mentions Mr. Rajic.

11 And please clarify to Their Honours very briefly what this document

12 means. It was signed by Hazim Sadic. The date is the 20th of February,

13 1993, but we see when it was sent, and you will clarify what this is all

14 about.

15 A. Your Honours, at these meetings in Mostar we talked with the

16 persons I've already mentioned, not only about the procurement of MTS but

17 also about certain issues which were of interest to both sides. I was

18 authorised to engage in these talks on behalf of the Chief of Staff of

19 the Supreme Command of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20 on behalf of the commander of the 2nd Corps. This is evident from the

21 preamble to this document where it says:

22 "Pursuant to an order issued by the chief of the staff of the

23 Supreme Command."

24 The document was compiled on my return to the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.

25 I personally composed the document, and you can see this if you look at

Page 38436

1 page 2, in the lower left-hand corner you see the initials AM. Those are

2 my initials through the A. The principle was for the compiler of the

3 document to put his initials there, and the other set of initials

4 belonged to the typist. The document was actually a report from the

5 2nd Corps sent to the staff of the Supreme Command, for the staff of the

6 Supreme Command to be informed of what had been discussed and agreed at

7 those meetings.

8 The document was signed, of course, by the commander, because he

9 signed every document. And please pay attention to page 2, the lower

10 left-hand corner. It was sent to the president of the Presidency of the

11 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, to the Chief of

12 Staff of the Supreme Command, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, to the commander of

13 the staff of the armed forces, Mr. Rasim Delic, and to the head of the

14 HVO Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Bruno Stojic, which was quite normal and natural

15 because we wanted to inform him of the way in which we had reported on

16 our talks.

17 Q. Mr. Makar, if I understood you correctly, this reports are refers

18 to more than one meeting. It's all the meetings and contacts you had in

19 the course of your visit; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You say here in item 1, 1(A):

22 "Representatives of the HVO of Herceg-Bosna are fully prepared to

23 consistently implement all the items of the agreement between the

24 Presidency president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and the president of the

25 Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman."

Page 38437

1 And under (C):

2 "Representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are offering the

3 formation of a Joint Command," and they have a proposal in this regard.

4 But now I'd like to deal with logistics. Further on in this

5 document it says logistics (A). Was this the main reason why you went to

6 Mostar, to agree on procurement of MTS? Am I right?

7 A. Yes, you are.

8 Q. It says here under (A):

9 "After becoming familiar with the situation in the 2nd Corps,

10 where all of the ABiH and HVO units are under a Joint Command ..."

11 His Honour Judge Antonetti asked whether there was a single

12 document from which this is evident. Can we confirm that this is such a

13 document? It was sent both to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and to the Chief of

14 Staff, Sefer Halilovic, and it clearly shows that you say here that all

15 the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West.

17 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour. My apologies for standing up

18 and interrupting. There have been a number of times where counsel's

19 questions have been leading, and I've not been commenting on them because

20 I know she has a number of documents to go through, but this last

21 question was I think a bit more than any of the others, and I would just

22 like to point it out for the Court.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, please be careful.

24 Thank you.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. It was only leading

Page 38438

1 because it was a follow-up question to His Honour's question, but I won't

2 do that anymore.

3 Q. So would you comment on this, Witness. Would you comment on this

4 part of your report under 2(A)?

5 A. I can confirm that this manner of distribution --

6 Q. But that's not my question. I'm asking you about logistics (A),

7 the first part of your sentence.

8 "After becoming familiar with the situation in the 2nd Corps

9 where all of the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the units of

10 the HVO are under a Joint Command."

11 Mr. Makar, did you confirm this at the meetings to the gentlemen

12 you met and through this document to all those to whom the document was

13 addressed?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And it goes on to say: "Where no conflicts have emerged to date.

16 Representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosnia will enable safe passage of all

17 MTS logistics for the 2nd Corps. The MTS acquired in the Republic of

18 Croatia, and Konjuh special purpose production will be delivered to the

19 HVO 107th Brigade allowing for the 2nd Corps to decide on the

20 distribution of the MTS to all of the corps units."

21 Does it follow from this part of your report -- does it confirm

22 what you said about the reasons why all the documents are addressed to

23 the 107th and 108th HVO brigades?

24 A. Your Honours, this method of distribution or, rather, this method

25 of sending and distributing the MTS was agreed from the beginning to the

Page 38439

1 end of the war and it was implemented in this way, and with this sentence

2 inserted into our report which was delivered to all the addressees that

3 you saw, we simply confirmed that this was so.

4 Q. Mr. Makar, here we see under B, C, D, and E, that different

5 questions are considered all pertaining to logistics, but anyway, this is

6 what you say was the -- were the conclusions of the meeting; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, when it comes to conclusion and proposals, are these

9 proposals which emerged from your discussions with the gentlemen you had

10 meetings with?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. Under 3(B) it says that joint commands of the armed forces should

13 be established as soon as possible. Was that one of the proposals?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Under (H) it says that the BH Army -- OS of the BH Army and HVO

16 should be engaged to deblock Sarajevo, the corridor towards Orasje,

17 Srebrenica, and axes which the SSVK considers to be of importance. What

18 is SSVK?

19 A. The staff of the Supreme Command.

20 Q. Right. Now it says that the proposals and conclusions are

21 something that the 2nd corps command informed the Tuzla district

22 municipal Presidency about. Can you confirm that?

23 A. Yes, I can confirm that that was done because these were

24 important questions pertaining to their relations, and we would also

25 inform the Presidency of the district.

Page 38440

1 Q. Mr. Makar from your position and from your letters, we can see

2 that when it came to MTS procurement and assessment and evaluation of

3 what the armed forces and the BH Army should do together with the

4 November, can we then conclude that you had similar positions that you

5 shared with HVO representatives whom you encountered?

6 A. I'd just like to make a correction. These are not my positions.

7 I just conveyed in my reports everything that was agreed upon and which

8 was the HVO's positions and the representative in Mostar and the

9 2nd Corps command.

10 Q. Mr. Makar, in view of the fact that you informed the Presidency

11 of the Municipal Assembly of the Tuzla district, that's why I asked you

12 that. Did the Presidency support these positions, the positions set out

13 here with respect to a joint struggle against a common enemy and so on?

14 A. Your Honours, the president of the district, not only did it

15 support these positions, but I went to attend these meetings with the

16 positions of the Presidency of the district and the representatives of

17 the religious communities, the Mufti, in fact, Mufti Lugovic and

18 Mr. Petar Metanovic [phoen] because we would have frequent meetings with

19 the district Presidency, and at those meetings we would be given

20 political guidelines for how we should act militarily. And so it was

21 absolutely clear that the district Presidency held positions which I

22 conveyed to the HVO in Mostar and the feedback mechanism functioned. I

23 would convey the positions from the meetings held.

24 Q. You said, Mr. Makar, that sometime in March you went to Mostar

25 again; is that right?

Page 38441

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And now would you take a look at two documents. 2D1106 is the

3 first one.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't want to ask any

5 question, but given that this document seems to be very important, I

6 would like to go to point 1(E). You are the drafter of this document,

7 and while reading what you wrote, we have the following impression: It

8 seems to be suggested that all you need be regrouped, all the units from

9 the ABiH that are in Central Bosnia. Those units are leaning towards the

10 HVO and there is risk of a new conflict because you can already imagine

11 that some soldiers have already been kill or wounded. And you seem to

12 suggest that it will be better to go towards a common enemy. You do not

13 mention it, but we can think that these are the Serbs, and you make a

14 proposal, namely, to redeploy three brigades of the ABiH and one brigade

15 of the HVO to unblock Sarajevo. So there is a very fine-tuned analysis

16 of the situation on the ground.

17 According to you, conflicts in Central Bosnia, I would like to

18 know whether you have any information on that. Do you think that there

19 were -- or what were the reasons for those conflicts? Was it conflicts

20 between the local commanders, or do you feel that those conflicts were

21 part of a much wider strategy?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honours, I

23 have a very precise opinion about this, and I worked for three years as a

24 scientific advisor of the institute for investigating war documents in

25 Amsterdam, and in my work there I dealt with many of these issues. I

Page 38442

1 consider, and I'm saying this as a soldier myself, we cannot speak of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina in general terms about the conflict between the HVO

3 and the BH Army, because judging by the location of the conflict viewed

4 territorially, what surface area that was, and judging by the forces

5 involved in the conflict, that is to say brigades and units, it is

6 obvious that this was not the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Now, whether we can characterise this as local conflicts in

8 individual regions, I don't wish to go into that now. However, the fact

9 remains that the zone under the 2nd Corps of the BH Army was an area that

10 was the largest in Bosnia-Herzegovina, larger than any of the other

11 corps, and that numerically the 2nd Corps numbered about 80.000 soldiers,

12 and I include there members of the HVO Brigades.

13 Furthermore, had there not been conflicts in other areas such as

14 Sarajevo, well, I would agree with your assertion, and I, too, think that

15 all this depended on the locality and territory where the conflicts broke

16 out.

17 The second reason is this, and what I can say specifically for

18 the area of defence and territory of the Tuzla district: We cooperated

19 closely with the organs of political power and authority of the

20 districts, municipalities, and as the corps command, we immediately

21 accepted the platform of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We had

22 the same views and the political organs and the corps command, shared

23 them. The political situation in the area was such that the forces which

24 were in the majority were those -- well, no conflicts could have emerged

25 from those forces.

Page 38443

1 Now, as far as the political leadership is concerned in the

2 district and the municipality, at the beginning of the war we took over a

3 motto which we applied throughout the war until the end of the war and

4 that was this: That while the war was going on, none of us had the right

5 to any political activities, political action, and that our enemies were

6 only the Chetniks. And when I say the Chetniks, I mean -- and the corps

7 command and the political leadership in the area, well, we always

8 differentiated between the Chetniks and the Serbs. As far as we were

9 concerned, Chetniks were the ones who attacked us, those who attacked us,

10 and those who did not want to live in communality as we had been living

11 up until then. They wished to destroy the values of the life -- the kind

12 of life we led up until then.

13 So that was our sole political goal in fighting, in combat, and

14 that that was the case in some other locations, too, parts of the

15 territory that you mentioned. I do believe that there wouldn't have been

16 any conflicts there had not that been the case.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Makar, Judge Antonetti showed you point (E) on page 1, and

19 I'd just like you to clarify whether those were your position or were

20 they positions which were put forward by the gentlemen that you talked to

21 in Mostar?

22 A. Your Honours, I have not forgotten the question asked by

23 Judge Antonetti. They are not my positions, it is not my position. I

24 write this in my report which was signed by the corps command or, rather,

25 the commander of the corps command, and this report went to the staff of

Page 38444

1 the Supreme Command, and it relates to the proposal made by the

2 individuals I talked to in Mostar; that is to say, men from the HVO who

3 proposed that we undertake a joint operation to deblock Sarajevo which

4 was facing the most critical situation. And we also proposed this: That

5 they set aside one HVO Brigade and that the staff of the Supreme Command

6 should set aside three brigades from the BH Army for that same operation.

7 Q. I see. Fine. Now, Mr. Makar, this brings us to your second

8 visit. You said that in March 1993 you went to Mostar for the second

9 time, and I'd like to ask you to look at the following documents, two

10 documents in actual fact, the first of which is 2D1106. May we have your

11 comments? What kind of document is this? What is it about?

12 A. Your Honours, this is precisely -- this is a permit signed by the

13 commander of the 2nd Corps, Hazim Sadic, and we can see that the deputy

14 commander signed for him, which was normal at that time, giving me

15 permission to go, to travel to Mostar.

16 Q. The next document is 2D1110.

17 A. Your Honour, this is a document and an event which I remember

18 very well. During the discussions, Mr. Bruno Stojic, who signed this,

19 asked where we would spend the night. I don't know what we said, but

20 anyway, he provided accommodation and food at the Citluk hotel in Citluk,

21 and that is what this document confirms.

22 Q. Before we take a break, Mr. Makar, can you remember and explain

23 to us briefly what was the reason for your second visit? What was the

24 main reason for your second visit?

25 A. Well, the main reason was just like on the previous occasion,

Page 38447

1 not only with supplies of weapons but also other issues. The Defence is

2 putting forward evidence showing that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in

3 certain areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, had direct command over particular

4 HVO units which were part of the HZ HB, and we showed this using both the

5 example of Posavina and the example of Sarajevo, and now through this

6 witness we are doing the same using the 2nd Corps as an example.

7 I think this is highly significant, and I will continue my

8 examination-in-chief because this does deal not -- this deals not just

9 with supplies of weapons.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Go ahead.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Makar, you said that in late April or early May you visited

14 Mostar again. Can you explain to Their Honours with whom you met in

15 Mostar and what happened in the course of your third visit?

16 A. My third visit was connected exclusively to the very difficult

17 situation. There were fierce attacks in the area of the 2nd Corps, and

18 we had a great need for MTS. So that was the main task I had when going

19 to Mostar.

20 I spoke to Mr. Stojic, Mr. Praljak, the same men I've already

21 mentioned, Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Rajic.

22 Q. Mr. Makar, please look at 2D1107 now.

23 A. Excuse me -- sorry. Yes, here it is. Yes.

24 Q. Can you clarify to Their Honours? This is a safe conduct pass.

25 It also mentions your name. Can you tell us from whom you received this

Page 38448

1 MTS and whether it was for the needs of the 2nd Corps?

2 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that this was MTS which I received

3 from the HVO in Mostar and which I brought to Tuzla, but I had a lot of

4 problems along the way.

5 Q. Mr. Makar, can we now look at 2D1108.

6 A. Yes. This document is linked to the previous document. It's the

7 dispatch notes for the MTS which I took and brought to Tuzla.

8 Q. The date is the 1st of May, 1993; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, correct.

10 Q. Mr. Makar, can you confirm to Their Honours -- or, rather, tell

11 them the following: Do you know whether the MTS mentioned in these notes

12 we have shown so far sent to the 2nd Corps, whether it was paid for?

13 A. Excuse me, are you referring to the MTS mentioned in the last two

14 documents?

15 Q. My question is general. The MTS that you took delivery of, was

16 it paid for?

17 A. No, it was not paid for.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, do you know whether the MTS obtained directly from the

19 Ministry of Defence in Zagreb were paid for in full?

20 A. Your Honours, the MTS I said had been received from the Ministry

21 of Defence were paid for only in part, but in part they were sent without

22 payment.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, before we move on to a new topic, can you confirm,

24 based on all these notes we've seen today which reached the 2nd Corps by

25 various methods, can you confirm whether this MTS actually reached the

Page 38449

1 2nd Corps of the BH Army?

2 A. Yes, I can, because I was at the head of the staff which, due to

3 combat activities in the corps for which it was most responsible, had to

4 know what MTS had arrived and how to distribute it. I was therefore

5 authorised by the corps commander to monitor, together with the logistics

6 organs, everything that arrived in the corps and how it was distributed.

7 Q. Mr. Makar, besides these supplies procured for the 2nd Corps of

8 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO units subordinated to the

9 2nd Corps in Tuzla, did anyone else provide MTS for your needs?

10 A. Your Honours, I've already stated in my reply to the question as

11 to how we obtained MTS, that this was done through a rather large number

12 of people. In addition to the people in the logistics centre in Zagreb

13 and some officers primarily from the logistics of the 2nd Corps, these

14 people went off to obtain MTS. We also had a special assistant who was

15 the corps commander for procurement whom I've already mentioned. This

16 was Mr. Edin Delibegovic. He procured most of the MTS.

17 Q. Mr. Makar let's look at 2D1077 now. Can you tell Their Honours

18 the following. This is a table showing MTS purchased.

19 A. On page 2, Your Honours, I see the name of Fadil Muhic. I know

20 Fadil Muhic very well. We still see a lot of each other after the war.

21 He was in that logistics centre in Zagreb, and as far as I can see this

22 document shows that this is actually a report by Fadil Muhic about all

23 the MTS purchased for the 107th Gradacac Brigade in October 1992 up to

24 December 1993, and in the title it says, "... bought and forwarded to the

25 brigade."

Page 38450

1 I saw such reports during the war. This was MTS which arrived in

2 the corps and was then distributed to where it was most needed.

3 Q. Mr. Makar, let's look at 2D1078 now. This is a financial

4 report --

5 A. Yes, I see it. Concerning the procurement of the MTS for the

6 needs of the 2nd Corps. And on page 3 it says, Assistant Commander Edin

7 Delibegovic. I've already mentioned him. Evidently this is a report

8 about how he as an assistant for procurement spent the funds he had

9 available to procure weapons.

10 Q. Mr. Makar, before your testimony here, did you have occasion to

11 learn anything about this purchase of MTS?

12 A. Yes. I knew about the purchase of this MTS. I also knew about

13 some of the ways in which funds were obtained, but I'd like to draw

14 attention to the following here: There's an error on page 3. It says

15 "Tuzla, 12th of December, 1992," but I can see from the text that this

16 materiel was obtained in 1993. So obviously this is an error. He is

17 submitting a report in February 1993.

18 Q. Now that we're on page 3, does it follow from this that this MTS

19 was procured from the Republic of Croatia? Was it obtained there? Look

20 at the last paragraph.

21 A. Yes. From the preceding text and especially the passage you

22 pointed out, it's evident that the MTS was obtained through the assistant

23 minister of the Republic of Croatia, of the minister of defence, that is.

24 Q. It says here that this -- the payments will be dealt with at the

25 level of the two republics. Does this refer to the Republic of Croatia

Page 38451

1 and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. This follows not only from this document, but that's how it was.

3 Very often, as we did not have funds available, we would deliver salt

4 from the Tuzla salt factory, and very often from Sarajevo we received

5 requests for certain quantities of salt to be sent in lieu of payment

6 due, payments due.

7 Q. There are a number of attachments mentioned to this document.

8 I'll read them out and just tell me whether these are the documents

9 referred to here. It's 2D1079, please.

10 A. Yes. Evidently this document shows part of the MTS mentioned in

11 this financial section.

12 Q. The next document is 2D1080.

13 A. Yes. Yes, I confirm that that is also part of this report.

14 Q. 2D1081.

15 A. Yes. This too. You can see that Mr. Delibegovic took delivery

16 of the MTS.

17 Q. 2D1084.

18 A. Yes. Yes, this too.

19 Q. 2D1086.

20 A. Yes. And it says here in what amount the MTS has been paid for.

21 Q. 2D1087.

22 A. This document shows what MTS was obtained and how much has been

23 paid for.

24 Q. 2D1089 [as interpreted]. Is this a final summary, an overview?

25 2D1098 is the right number.

Page 38452

1 A. Your Honours, this is evidently a document providing an overview,

2 and it shows what has been paid for and the various segments are

3 mentioned here.

4 Q. 2D1097 finally.

5 A. Well, this is not really legible.

6 Q. This document was signed by Mr. Delibegovic on the 8th of March,

7 and he refers to the MTS mentioned in document 2D1078. And I wish to

8 draw your attention to item 2 where it says:

9 "The materiel was purchased from the end of August, 1992 until

10 February 1993. Practically this is a large quantity of MTS, one of the

11 largest quantities obtained for the needs of the 2nd Corps.

12 "The transport of MTS was organised 11 times, and most of the MTS

13 was brought to this area."

14 It says that: "Goods are sometimes held up in Grude or Kiseljak,

15 but all these purchases and transport were organised by me with the

16 consent of the commander of the 2nd Corps."

17 My question is: Is it evident from this document that this MTS

18 was purchased from the end of August 1992, until February 1993, and as

19 Mr. Delibegovic says, this -- these goods, almost all of them reached the

20 area, and we'll deal with the problems later on.

21 A. Yes. This document confirms the time-frame, but I wish to make a

22 correction to what you said. It should say practically this is a great

23 majority of the MTS. This was most of the MTS that ever reached the

24 2nd Corps. And it says that there were 11 transports, and the summary we

25 have just seen is attached to this document.

Page 38453

1 Q. Mr. Makar, did the 2nd Corps ever obtain any other MTS arriving

2 from the logistics centres of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb?

3 A. Yes, yes. There was MTS coming from the logistics centres of the

4 ABiH and from the logistics centres of various brigades and various

5 municipalities had their logistics centres in Zagreb. Part of this MTS

6 was donated and part of it was allocated.

7 Q. Let's look at 2D1099. Can you explain to Their Honours what this

8 is about?

9 A. Your Honours, I remember this document very well, because it

10 deals with a special case. This refers to the donation of a large amount

11 of communications equipment. It was donated by a company from

12 Liechtenstein, and it was sent through the BH Army logistics centre in

13 Zagreb with a final destination Tuzla and Gradacac, and it was sent to

14 Mr. Zeljko Knez, the commander of the 2nd Corps of the ABiH, and

15 Mr. Ivan Miocevic, and I know the signature of Muradif Pajt, because I

16 sent my own communications chief to Zagreb to take delivery of this

17 equipment.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, do you recall whether any MTS was obtained for the

19 needs of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina when there were offensives going

20 on on the territory of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 launched by the Yugoslav Army and the Serbian units in March and April

22 1993?

23 A. I've already mentioned that such offensives and fierce fighting

24 on the territory of the 2nd Corps were practically ongoing, continuous

25 throughout the war, and there was a fierce attack in the area of defence

Page 38454

1 of the 2nd Corps, and we needed fresh MTS, which was the reason I visited

2 Mostar for the third time, as I've already explained, when I brought back

3 a large quantity of MTS. At the time, this MTS saved the situation,

4 which was very critical.

5 I know that there were huge problems during the offensive

6 conducted in the area of Srebrenica and that considerable amounts of MTS

7 were required.

8 Q. Could you now look at 2D1100. Have you found it?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] There is no English translation.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise. We did not have an

12 interpretation, and I think there is another microphone on in the

13 courtroom.

14 Q. Can you repeat what you said after you saw document 2D1100? Can

15 you repeat your answer, please?

16 A. Your Honours, it is clearly evident from this document that the

17 HVO approved safe conduct and a considerable quantity of MTS - when I

18 say "considerable quantity," I'm referring to the amounts I see in this

19 document - to be sent to Srebrenica, because it says that the materials

20 are to be transported on the Grude-Srebrenica route, and the details of

21 the trucks are listed. The date is the 7th of April, 1993, which is when

22 the situation in that area was critical.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, can you confirm that this MTS was received by the

24 2nd Corps as you know that this was a difficult period in Srebrenica?

25 A. Well, we monitored that part of the war theatre closely at the

Page 38455

1 time, and in spite of our physical distance, we had constant

2 communication with them. So I do know that this MTS arrived at its

3 destination.

4 Q. Mr. Makar, we spoke about the problems -- or, rather, we

5 mentioned that there were some problems as seen in previous documents in

6 the transports of this MTS to Tuzla. At the time that you went to bring

7 back MTS, and also when others brought the MTS to its destination, were

8 there any problems and, if so, what were the problems.

9 A. Your Honours, I could speak about that at length, but probably

10 time would not allow that. I myself had problems on the road when I was

11 leading individual convoys, but in conclusion I can say that the problems

12 stemmed, and I can say this as a military expert, from the fact that in

13 this war a firm military organisation had not yet been established in

14 which lower-ranking commanders have to obey orders coming from high

15 er-ranking commanders without fail. Very often local commanders, both in

16 the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would sometimes hold up

17 convoys or even confiscate some MTS from the convoys which passed

18 through.

19 Q. Could we now look at 2D1116. And this is letter from the HVO

20 Mostar Defence Department to Mr. Bruno Stojic in person sent by

21 Mr. Sadic, and here he discusses these problems and speaks of the needs

22 of the 2nd Corps and their other logistical needs; right?

23 A. Your Honours, this document, looking at the date which is the 4th

24 of March, 1993, is the result of a discussion I had with the HVO in

25 Mostar during my first visit there, which was in February. At the time,

Page 38456

1 we had agreed on the communication and that we should have communication

2 between ourselves talking about problems linked -- problems occurring on

3 a local level with respect to MTS, whichever side experienced them. And

4 so my commander in war, Mr. Hazim Sadic, sent to Mr. Bruno Stojic, as I

5 see here, sent him information and reports about the problems for us to

6 be able to solve them.

7 Q. Mr. Makar, in point 6 of this document, as you've just said,

8 Mr. Sadic is suggesting to Mr. Stojic that he send in his requests and

9 state his problems so that they could be solved. Now, my question to you

10 is this: To the best of your knowledge, the problems that occurred with

11 respect to transport, were they solved?

12 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that the problems were solved on the

13 basis of agreement either in writing, as the case was here, and

14 communication was two-way, and the problems would be solved sometimes by

15 picking up the phone, on the phone if something was urgent, through the

16 communications links.

17 Q. Now let's look at 2D1101, the next document, please. This is a

18 letter from Mr. Sefer Halilovic, with the same date, referring to the

19 previous letter, which was document 2D1116, and here we have -- well, it

20 says the command of the 4th Corps, and it says that Arif Pasalic, the

21 commander of the 4th Corps, confirms this.

22 Now, can you explain why there are two stamps on this letter from

23 Mr. Sefer Halilovic?

24 A. Your Honours, yes, I can explain that. This document, 1116, the

25 one we looked at previously, was sent to the Supreme Command Staff, to

Page 38457

1 Mr. Sefer Halilovic as well, and after that he sent a letter of his own

2 to the Croatian Defence Council, Mostar, to Mr. Bruno Stojic and

3 Mr. Milivoj Petkovic.

4 Now, for reasons of military organisation and the communications

5 systems organisation, the Supreme Command Staff communicated with the

6 command of the 4th Corps in Mostar. And it's quite obvious that this

7 letter reached the 4th Corps command and that at the bottom there we have

8 the signature of the commander of the 4th Corps, Mr. Arif Pasalic, and

9 that he was given the assignment and carried it out of sending the letter

10 to the HVO of Mostar.

11 Q. What is important in this document, and I'd like to draw your

12 attention to that, is paragraph 3 where Mr. Sefer Halilovic says as

13 follows:

14 "I would also like to take this opportunity to ask you if you

15 have any type of ammunition and other MTS, especially artillery

16 ammunition and POB ..."

17 Will you tell us what that is?

18 A. Anti-armour combat is POB.

19 Q. "To lend them to us or give them to us, and we will remunerate

20 you -- or, rather, in exchange for financial cooperation."

21 And then in the next paragraph -- or, rather, in the previous

22 paragraph he deals with the situation in Srebrenica. He says:

23 "Please grant all the requests stated in Mr. Sadic's letter as

24 soon as possible because the fate of more than 60.000 people in the free

25 territory of Srebrenica depends on this."

Page 38458

1 Now, Mr. Sefer Halilovic refers to the common foe, common enemy.

2 The document is dated the 4th of March, 1993.

3 And now, Mr. Makar, we have seen the document. It will come up

4 on your screen again. It is 2D1100 of the 7th of April, 1993, when you

5 said that the Main Staff gave permission for resources for Srebrenica,

6 because we can see quite obviously that in April 1993 the Main Staff, in

7 reacting to these demands, permitted the resources to go to Srebrenica.

8 A. Yes. The document has just come up on the screen. We've already

9 discussed it, and looking at the date I think it is obvious that it was a

10 reaction from the Main Staff of the HVO to the request made by

11 Sefer Halilovic.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, you discussed the problems that occurred in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina accompanying the transport of these convoys and

14 passage of the convoys.

15 Let's look at a joint document now. It is 2D1037, and they are

16 problems which occurred in territory controlled by the BH Army. This is

17 a piece of information from the Security Sector of the Defence

18 Department, and I'm going to ask you about some of the facts stipulated

19 in this report, whether you know of them.

20 This is a document dated the 30th of January, 1993, and it speaks

21 of 54 trucks, materiel which at the end of November and beginning of

22 December for the requirements of the 107th HVO Brigade of Gradacac set

23 out from Zagreb.

24 From this document, and let me just tell you briefly about this,

25 but anyway, it emerges and follows that 30 trucks never arrived in

Page 38459

1 Gradacac and that the information that the person received, the person

2 was called Ivan Roso, according to what he learned, the information he

3 received, those trucks allegedly were unloaded in the logistics base in

4 Visoko.

5 Now, Mr. Makar, at the end it says what quantities -- the

6 quantities concerned.

7 Now, do you know -- on the third page it says 30 trucks were

8 certainly unloaded in the logistics centre of the BH Army in Visoko, and

9 most probably they were distributed to the units of the BH Army in the

10 field.

11 Now, did you -- and the source of this information here is

12 Mr. Zeljko Knez.

13 Do you know what things like this happened, that is to say, that

14 the MTS that was sent for the requirements of the 2nd Corps somehow

15 turned up at the logistics centre in Visoko where they were then

16 distributed to any unit of the BH Army?

17 A. Your Honours, I remember this case very well, because it was

18 January 1993, which was the time that I spent in the Gradacac area where

19 fierce fighting was going on, and that the Chetniks threatened to enter

20 the town of Gradacac. So the situation was very critical, especially

21 with respect to the MTS situation, and we were expecting this particular

22 convoy to arrive.

23 Now, when less than half the convoy arrived, I remember that I

24 contacted the commander, who was Mr. Zeljko Knez at the time, and asked

25 him what had happened to the rest. I don't know what was done, but

Page 38460

1 anyway, later on I also learnt that that part of the convoy had probably

2 ended up in the logistics centre of the BH Army in Visoko.

3 Q. Mr. Makar, I'm going to show you a few documents now which refer

4 to a convoy that we can call the double-bottom convoy to be able to

5 identify it better. So we'll call it that will provisionally. I'm going

6 to show you the documents. I know that you were involved in this, but

7 perhaps before you see the documents you could explain to the Trial

8 Chamber what this is all about.

9 A. Your Honours, this document tells me about something that I was

10 very familiar with.

11 Q. Just a moment. Well, then I'll give you the number of the

12 document. 2D1112 is the number. Are you looking at that document?

13 A. No, I'm not. I beg your pardon. Yes, I've found it now, 1112.

14 Q. All right. Now you can continue and tell us what you know about

15 it.

16 A. It is a permit to Mr. Avdo Mesic to go and fetch some resources

17 for the 2nd Corps, and the date is 1993.

18 Q. All right. Now did you comment on 2D1113, the next document?

19 A. Your Honours, that is a document which follows this first one and

20 refers to the individuals who will go with Mr. Avdo Mesic to procure MTS.

21 Q. Mr. Makar, now look at 2D1114, the next document, which is a

22 report, but before we comment on that report, can you briefly tell the

23 Trial Chamber what happened when Mr. Mesic, Avdo Mesic, went pursuant to

24 these permits?

25 A. Your Honours, I've already said that on the basis of an agreement

Page 38461

1 with the HVO in Mostar, we had a very proper relationship in that we

2 endeavoured to adhere to what we had agreed upon.

3 Now, in this particular case, Mr. Mesic, Mr. Avdo Mesic, whom I

4 personally know, engaged in some improper acts -- or, rather, he made a

5 double-bottom to a truck, a false bottom, and in that false bottom he

6 tried to transport some MTS that had not been listed on the authorised

7 list.

8 As far as I know, at certain check-points along the way in the

9 area under the control of the HVO of Mostar, those trucks were stopped

10 and searched, and they found what was happening, and so that's the

11 problem.

12 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber who compiled this report and

13 on what occasion?

14 A. This is Mr. Avdo Mesic's report upon his return to Tuzla, because

15 most probably the corps command asked for a report, because certain acts

16 had been committed which had violated the agreement. And so Mr. Mesic

17 has written a long report reporting on the situation.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, were you personally informed about what had happened

19 with this convoy and with that false bottom or double-bottom?

20 A. Yes, I was informed about that. I learnt about the incident when

21 it happened, and the commander charged me with going to deal with the

22 situation.

23 Q. Let's look at 2D1115 now, please, which is the next document.

24 And my question to you is this: Did some organs conduct an investigation

25 into this incident and were the facts established as to how this came

Page 38462

1 about?

2 A. Your Honours, this, as far as I can see, well, there's no heading

3 there so we don't see who compiled the report and there's no signature

4 either, but in general terms this could have been a report from our

5 security organs, and the commander had probably given them the assignment

6 of investigating the matter concerning Mr. Mesic's convoy and checking

7 out the facts from the report that he had sent in.

8 As far as I can see, at the end of this report it was addressed

9 to the Municipal Assembly of Tuzla, Mr. Selim Beslagic; the Tuzla

10 district, Mr. Esad Hadzic; the security organs, one copy, of course; and

11 another copy to the Chief of Staff. That is to say, it reached me.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, you can in fact confirm that you received this report,

13 a copy of it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Not to dwell on the details, but it follows from this report that

16 Mr. Avdo Mesic, without permission from the 2nd Corps, attempted, along

17 with the MTS that had been approved, to bring in certain MTS that had not

18 been approved; right?

19 A. Well, from this report that I received from the security organs

20 that would be the conclusion, yes.

21 Q. Just two details. On page 2, under number 12 it says:

22 "In view of this problem, the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Corps has

23 been called to Mostar, Mr. Andjelko Makar, who along with great efforts

24 managed to put the mistakes right, and we managed to procure --"

25 That's on page 2.

Page 38463

1 A. Yes, I've found it. Please continue.

2 Q. "He managed to smooth over the mistakes made Avdo Mesic, and we

3 purchased significant quantities of MTS for the 2nd Corps which were

4 brought to Tuzla with regular documentation and no problems."

5 And your name is mentioned here. So does that refer to your

6 trips to Mostar and the MTS quantities that you procured for the

7 2nd Corps?

8 A. Yes, I can confirm that. I can confirm that I was in Mostar. I

9 did go to Mostar, and on route I met part of the convoy that had been

10 allowed to pass through because it had all the rights papers and there

11 was no problem. And in talking to the people in Mostar, I managed to

12 secure, as it says here, considerable quantities of MTS.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since it's exactly

14 7.00 now, can we adjourn for the day, and then I'll see how much time I

15 have left and continue tomorrow?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have about 18 minutes left.

17 So as you know, we shall resume tomorrow at 14.30. So we'll start 15

18 minutes late.

19 Witness, until tomorrow, please have no contact whatsoever with

20 anyone regarding your testimony here, and we will have the pleasure to

21 see you again tomorrow at 2.30.

22 I wish everyone a good evening.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day

25 of March, 2009, at 2.30 p.m.