090325ED

Page 38565

1 Q. And in the course of those six months, how often do you listen in

2 or do you watch?

3 A. Not often, because it's not always possible. I read what "SENSE"

4 publishes on the internet, although it's not always correct. So

5 occasionally when I have time, I read those reports.

6 Q. And have you read from "SENSE" or followed any of the other cases

7 at the ICTY?

8 A. No, Your Honours, I didn't follow any other cases. I followed

9 this one because I thought I might be called as a witness.

10 Q. Mr. Makar, on Monday, page 58 of the transcript, you were asked

11 by counsel:

12 "What would have happened to the Tuzla region, which we have seen

13 is a very large area, had you not procured weapons in the way in which

14 you have described to us now during your testimony? Would the area have

15 been defended from the Yugoslav Army and Serb paramilitaries? Would it

16 have been successful in defending itself?"

17 Do you remember that question on Monday?

18 A. Your Honours, I do, but now it's been formulated slightly

19 differently. Would this region have defended itself had we not supplied

20 those weapons? Supplied to whom? We received weapons. We did not

21 supply them to anyone.

22 Q. All right, Mr. Makar. Are you suggesting that the question I

23 read out to you is not, in your memory, the question that was asked of

24 you on Monday?

25 A. I was quite clear. You just said - I may have misunderstood

Page 38566

1 you - whether this area would have defended itself had we not delivered

2 those weapons. To deliver means that we gave weapons to somebody else.

3 I assume you wanted to ask whether the region would have defended itself

4 if we had not received those weapons. Was that your question? That's

5 what you said. You may have changed your question now. I don't know.

6 Q. Mr. Makar, I think maybe it was just a translation mistake. I've

7 read from the transcript, but we're going to move on. I'm going to ask

8 you another question that is quite similar, and that question is: What

9 would have happened to --

10 A. I can answer your question. It's not a problem for me to answer.

11 If you are asking about the weapons supplied to us, if we had not

12 received those weapons, certainly the region would not have been able to

13 defend itself. That's quite clear.

14 Q. Exactly, and that's what you answered on Monday. But my question

15 is: What would have happened to the Tuzla region had the ABiH teamed up

16 with the Serbs and not the HVO?

17 A. That's a hypothetical question, in my view, and in my view this

18 was not possible, it couldn't have happened.

19 Q. Okay. So you're right, that is a hypothetical question, and it

20 may be that it could not have happened. However, if it did, I'd like to

21 hear what your answer is.

22 A. Madam Prosecutor, Your Honours, as a soldier and as a human

23 being, I don't like speculating. I could speculate now, but I don't see

24 why I should. It's not a fact I'm being asked about. I can only

25 speculate about this. I can't tell you what I know about it. I don't

Page 38567

1 know.

2 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had that happened, had

3 the Croats -- had the ABiH and the Serbs teamed up against the Croats,

4 the Croats would have been completely destroyed?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.

6 This is not a historical seminar. I mean, what if Nazi Germany and

7 Russia had continued, or the Soviet Union, had continued their alliance?

8 What if, what if, what if? We're not here on some seminar. I mean,

9 academically I find it rather interesting that we can have this

10 discourse, but this is not the purpose of a trial, and I think we need to

11 move on of the.

12 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour, just a small thing I would

13 like to add to my dear friend. The question is asked and answered, in

14 addition to what my colleague said.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, first of all, the

16 answer hasn't been provided; at least the Bench does not see it as such.

17 Your question is of a technical and military nature. This is a question

18 which you are putting to a military man, and it is a question of a

19 military nature. This is how we should understand your question, isn't

20 it?

21 MS. WEST: Correct.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So put your question again, and

23 the witness will answer and provide an answer of a military nature.

24 MS. WEST:

25 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had the ABiH and the

Page 38568

1 Serbs teamed up against the Croats, the Croats would have been completely

2 destroyed?

3 A. Your Honours, the question is imprecise.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please do not

6 manifest. When you say something, "yes," "no," or something else, you

7 are provoking the answer of the witness, and that is not appropriate.

8 This is not allowed, Mr. Praljak. So let the witness answer freely on a

9 question that is of a military nature. You don't have to add anything to

10 this. When you will be in the seat of the witness, which I hope you will

11 be very soon, then we can clear up a lot of topics. Then you will be

12 able to address this topic again.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour,

14 Judge Antonetti.

15 I will, of course, be testifying very long. I hope I will be fit

16 to do so, but my reaction is very simple. I expected, and still expect,

17 with all due respect for the Trial Chamber and this Court, that we should

18 not engage in speculation, in idle speculation. Had America intervened,

19 in compliance with the international laws banning aggression, we would

20 not be sitting here. There would have been no war. We can discuss here

21 what would have happened had Cicero done this, or had Einstein not

22 developed his theory, and so on and so forth, but what are we talking

23 about, Judge Antonetti? What would have happened, what would have

24 happened?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please sit down,

Page 38569

1 please sit down.

2 I don't agree with what you have said at all, because Ms. West's

3 question is of a military nature. She would like to know whether, if the

4 forces had teamed up against the third force, the third force in question

5 would have been destroyed. That is a question which anyone can

6 understand, and the witness may have an answer to give us. He may say

7 that this is pure speculation, but in light of the forces involved, he

8 may say something else.

9 So please answer the question of Ms. West, irrespective of

10 Mr. Praljak's comments.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was ready to reply

12 when Mr. Praljak interrupted me, but I would like Madam Prosecutor to ask

13 whether she's asking about the territory of the 2nd Corps, could she be

14 precise, or about a wider territory?

15 MS. WEST:

16 Q. Mr. Makar, in this courtroom I'm asking you questions, and I made

17 it quite clear when I indicated the question I asked you on Monday, which

18 is in the Tuzla region. So in the Tuzla region, if the ABiH and the

19 Serbs had teamed up, what would have happened to the HVO --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What would have happened to the HVO?

22 A. Madam Prosecutor, evidently you haven't followed what I said so

23 far, because if you had, the answer would be clear to you.

24 In the area of the 2nd Corps, it wasn't Croats, Serbs, and

25 Muslims who were fighting, but human beings against inhuman beings.

Page 38570

1 There were Croats on the Serb side, and Muslims as well. I know that for

2 certain. So it was not an ethnic clash in that area. Both Croats and

3 Muslims, who were born on the territory covered by the 2nd Corps, whose

4 families were buried there, who had their family houses and their

5 families there, were fighting. So if anybody had joined up with anyone,

6 those people would have continued fighting in the same way they had been

7 fighting up to that point, and that's my answer.

8 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree that --

9 MS. TOMANOVIC: Sorry, sorry.

10 [Interpretation] I do apologise to my learned friend, but the

11 interpretation did not reflect what the witness said.

12 The witness, on page 12, lines 24 to 25, said, in fact, that on

13 the other side, there were both Croats and Serbs and Muslims.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, it isn't stated here.

15 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now it's all right in the

16 transcript. If you want to confirm, please go ahead.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.

18 MS. WEST: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the

20 ABiH in the Tuzla area was for the HVO's benefit, their own benefit?

21 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean, for the

22 benefit of someone?

23 Q. Would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the ABiH in the

24 Tuzla area was to advance one of the HVO's own goals, which is, in part,

25 in their own benefit?

Page 38571

1 A. No, I would not agree with that at all. I think it's not

2 correct.

3 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Makar --

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours. I

5 didn't want to intervene before the witness replied, but this question

6 clearly contains a presumption which was in no way confirmed either by

7 the testimony of this witness or by any other piece of evidence brought

8 before this Court. The first part is a presumption, followed by a

9 question. Let the presumption be confirmed first, and then the question

10 can be put. This is a textbook example of something that should not be

11 done.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

13 MS. WEST:

14 Q. Mr. Makar, yesterday we spoke --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're wasting more time.

16 MS. WEST:

17 Q. We spoke about the corridor where you fought, and you indicated

18 it was the end of 1992, early 1993. And after much questioning, you

19 finally agreed that sometimes military units were able to get through,

20 although you did not know for certain whether the military units carried

21 supplies. Do you remember those questions from yesterday?

22 A. Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, Kimberley, last night I

23 thought about your question, and I wish to give you my reply now.

24 I didn't say what you are saying now. You did not have a precise

25 map on which I could explain precisely what this was all about.

Page 38572

1 Secondly, the OTP didn't even know what the term "Posavina"

2 implies. And, thirdly, you kept mentioning the Posavina corridor, and I

3 kept telling you I didn't know about any such corridor.

4 This is a trial where people's fate hangs in the balance, and

5 every question is important. Put your question correctly, and I will

6 respond to it.

7 Q. Mr. Makar, you did not respond to my question --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are not

9 accountable for what's going to happen to the accused. You are a witness

10 that has been called upon to testify upon the request of the Stojic

11 Defence team and to answer questions regarding MTS and so on. But we are

12 talking about MTS, because the Prosecutor is dealing with other topics,

13 of course. But we are all aware that there are -- that the lives of the

14 accused is at stake here.

15 Ms. West, please proceed.

16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs

18 from --

19 A. Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I would nonetheless like to respond,

20 because you --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness. You do not have a right to

22 respond here. You are here under the duty to answer, clearly and

23 precisely, the questions that are put to you by the Prosecutor, the

24 Judge, the Defence. You are not to comment. It is unfortunate, perhaps,

25 and I regret to say this, because you do not have the freedom of speech

Page 38573

1 in here. You have it outside, but here you are an assistant to the

2 proceedings, and your duty is just to answer the question, not to

3 criticise them, but to answer them and, where possible, with "yes" or

4 "no." Do you understand this?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Stephan Trechsel, my

6 responsibility is clear here, and I abide by it, to tell the truth and

7 only the truth about the facts and to answer questions that are clear to

8 me. As for questions that are not clear to me, I cannot answer them with

9 clarity.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, please proceed.

11 MS. WEST: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs from

13 going through the corridor was of significance to the Republic of

14 Croatia, because if the Serbs were stopped in the corridor, then the

15 Serbs in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina would also be cut off?

16 A. Probably that would be the case, but I can't say for sure. I

17 don't know.

18 Q. So let's look at P10899, which is an interview you gave in

19 February 1995 in which answered the same question. P10899, 10899.

20 A. 01?

21 Q. 10899.

22 A. Yes, I see it.

23 Q. This is a February 6, 1995 interview that you gave, and it was in

24 Tuzla, and it starts -- in the beginning, it says:

25 "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia, the war

Page 38574

1 against the Bosnian Serbs could be won. If the Serbian corridor in the

2 North-Eastern Bosnia is cut, the Bosnian Serbs --"

3 A. Just a moment, please. I haven't found that passage, and

4 therefore I'm unable to follow. So just give me a moment to follow,

5 please.

6 Q. The very beginning. You can also look on the screen. Do you see

7 it?

8 A. I can't find that. Just a moment, please.

9 Q. Look on the screen.

10 A. Yes, I see it now.

11 Q. So the very beginning, first paragraph:

12 "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia, the war

13 against the Bosnian Serbs could be won. If the Serbian corridor in the

14 north eastern Bosnia is cut, the Bosnian Serbs would lose the major part

15 of their territory. The Serbs in Croatia would also be cut off.

16 "So said Colonel Makar to Svenska Dageldet. He is the deputy

17 commander of the Bosnian Army 2nd Corps in the Tuzla region."

18 Sir, do you remember giving this interview?

19 A. I don't remember, but most probably I did. And I'm not

20 challenging that statement of mine at all.

21 Q. All right. So you would agree that if the corridor continued, if

22 the Serbs were allowed to continue on the corridor, they would be

23 funneling their supplies to the Serbs in western Bosnia-Herzegovina and

24 the Serbs in the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

25 A. Probably, yes.

Page 38575

1 Q. And, Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason

2 that the Republic of Croatia was so generous to the 2nd Corps, by

3 providing MTS, was to ensure that the 2nd Corps was successful in

4 stopping the Serbs?

5 A. I do not agree. The prime objective, Your Honours -- well, there

6 was enough weapons to defend the territory, and I said yesterday that

7 from the beginning of the war, we were in a strategic defensive

8 exclusively. We didn't have the strength to cut anybody off, and the

9 weapons were used just to defend ourselves. And there was always a

10 shortage of weapons and not a surplus of weapons.

11 Q. Let's go to P10904. It's the map right next to you. I think

12 everyone was given a copy of this before we started, and this was another

13 map regarding the Serbian areas in Croatia. We had one yesterday, but

14 I think this might be a little bit of a better one to follow.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it could be put on the

16 ELMO, because this map is interesting, and it would be preferable to see

17 it from the ELMO.

18 Registrar, could you perhaps put this map on the ELMO so that

19 everyone can see it. Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Khan.

21 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, while that's being done, with your

22 leave, at page 17, line 17, the transcript is not complete. What the

23 witness said, as far as the translation is concerned, is: "Probably I

24 did, but I don't challenge that." The last two words are omitted from

25 the LiveNote transcript.

Page 38576

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] While we're on the transcript,

3 Your Honours.

4 At page 18, line 2, the witness said -- in line 2, he said there

5 was never enough weapons to defend the territory. The negative "never"

6 was not recorded, so there was never enough.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Everyone can see the map now.

10 Ms. West, please proceed.

11 MS. WEST:

12 Q. Mr. Makar, this is document P10904, and for the purposes of my

13 questions, just assume that the red area that we're looking at is a

14 Serbian-controlled area. Excuse me, let me be more specific about that.

15 The red area within the lines of Bosnia-Herzegovina are municipalities

16 with an absolute Serb majority in 1991, but the red-orange area in

17 Croatia was controlled by the Serbs.

18 So my question to you --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but before we go ahead

22 with the question, so that I don't have to object and react, I think it

23 would be proper to state that this map was compiled at the end of 1992,

24 and that's what it says in the legend at the bottom, because we have

25 three or four different maps, and this is important because the situation

Page 38577

1 was significantly changed by the end of 1992.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Mr. Praljak.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] This portion -- this is a

6 forgery, falsified.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you are testifying

8 here. Please wait and see what the witness will have to say, who has the

9 same competences as you have, since he was a high-ranking officer, and he

10 will perhaps say exactly what you have just said. So please let him

11 speak.

12 Ms. West, we are starting from the point of view that this map

13 dates back to the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, isn't it?

14 MS. WEST: Yes. For the record, Ms. Nozica said "1992." I think

15 the legend actually says controlled Serb autonomous regions at the end of

16 1991; and then the census -- the colours in the middle are from the 1991

17 census.

18 Q. Mr. Makar, there was fighting in the region of the corridor in

19 1992 and 1993; correct?

20 A. Yes, during 1992 and 1993.

21 Q. Okay. And at least in the beginning of 1992, for the purposes of

22 this question, would you agree with me that the area -- the Serbian area

23 controlled in Croatia pretty much corresponds with the orange that you

24 see in front of you? It may not be exact, but at least by the beginning

25 of 1992 does it pretty much correspond?

Page 38578

1 A. Madam Prosecutor, are you referring to the areas within Croatia?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I can't really say, because this is a very imprecise map.

4 Q. But you would agree with me that on the right-hand side of the

5 map, on the east side of Bosnia-Herzegovina is Serbia; correct?

6 A. Yes, I agree.

7 Q. And you see Brcko on the map; right?

8 A. You can see the name "Brcko," but not Brcko proper.

9 Q. Okay. But you see the municipality of Brcko --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipality, that's what I meant.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer the questions.

13 Ms. West is asking you whether you can see Brcko on the map. You say,

14 "Yes, I can see it."

15 Please proceed, Ms. West.

16 MS. WEST: Thank you.

17 Q. And, Mr. Witness -- Mr. Makar, in 1992/1993, this area around

18 Brcko was the area of the corridor that we've spoken about; correct?

19 A. No, we did not discuss that corridor.

20 Q. Okay. So then my question is: To go from Serbia, to go west to

21 these red municipalities in Western Bosnia-Herzegovina and to this orange

22 area in Croatia, would you agree with me that a direct line is going

23 directly from the area that we see as about Bijeljina going direct --

24 directly west, a direct line west; would you agree with me?

25 A. Yes, I agree.

Page 38579

1 MS. WEST: Okay. If we can go to P10902.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this map may be not

3 totally accurate, but it could shed some light on what is at stake here.

4 We can see in yellow the SAO that were controlled by the Serbs in

5 Croatia, and if you haven't studied that much, you could see that if

6 Serbia was sending supply, material, food, and so on to the Serbs in

7 Bosnia, it can only do it, if we look at this map, by going through the

8 surrounding area of Brcko to try and reach the municipalities -- the

9 Serbian municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It goes without saying,

10 it's kind of obvious, because Croatia is cut off by the SAO that we can

11 see. It's the western SAO. And so the Serbs can only go via Brcko.

12 And, in fact, yesterday, because everything you say is recorded, you

13 actually said yourself yesterday that people from Arkan were in the area

14 of Brcko. You said it yourself. So this corridor that is much talked

15 about cannot allow the Serbs to supply the Serbs of Bosnia only via this

16 area, and this is where the 2nd Corps is operational. So do you confirm

17 or do you disagree with this, based on the map that you can see in front

18 of you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, that's

20 precisely what I said. I confirm everything you said, and had the

21 Prosecutor explained it that way, I would have confirmed it to her

22 yesterday.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecutor is

24 the Prosecutor, and I am myself.

25 But just one point of detail which Ms. West hasn't raised

Page 38580

1 regarding this map. We can see that there is a border of the VRS in July

2 1993. It's the red line that goes through this area, and it's going to

3 go through -- go above Tuzla. Would you agree in saying that in July

4 1993, the VRS was kind of all around your area?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You agree. Very well. Well, I

7 hope that we can see more clearly now.

8 Ms. West, please proceed.

9 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 P10902, if we could have that, P10902. It's a map, another map.

11 And this is a close-up map of the area of Brcko, and on it, it shows

12 confrontation lines.

13 Q. Mr. Makar, do you see the Sava River going through the area of

14 Brcko?

15 A. Your Honours, yes, I see the River Sava clearly passing through

16 that area.

17 Q. Okay. And --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, can you please tell

19 us when this map was drawn?

20 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I believe this map is for the period

21 of -- in 1992. I cannot be more accurate than that.

22 Q. Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday in regard to this river, and

23 you indicated that this was the river you were trying to reach; correct?

24 A. That's right, Your Honours.

25 Q. All right. And --

Page 38581

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Ms. West.

2 I read on the map "Addition April 94." You have said "92."

3 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I can clarify that during the break.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

5 MS. WEST: Thank you.

6 Q. You also testified earlier today that the ABiH was in the area

7 south of Brcko. Now, on this map, and if you have it on e-court in front

8 of you, perhaps you can mark -- like you did yesterday, you can mark on

9 the map.

10 A. [In English] Okay.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you just show us, in the period that you were

12 there, which would have been the end of 1992, the beginning of 1993,

13 where the ABiH was located when you indicated they were south of Brcko?

14 A. [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have marked it. It's a little

15 closer to Brcko, at the outskirts.

16 Q. And did that position change through 1993 and into 1994, or was

17 the ABiH still in that general area?

18 A. Your Honours, the BH Army was there in that area throughout.

19 Q. When you say "throughout," give me the time-frame.

20 A. Until the end of the war. Your Honours, our positions were as I

21 have marked them in here, and they remained there until the end of the

22 war.

23 Q. Okay. Now, the area going north, the area above the other

24 confrontation line, what forces were in that area during the period of

25 time that you were there, end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993?

Page 38582

1 A. In that area north and marked in red in relation to the

2 Sava River, it was the forces of the Operative Zone of Bosanska Posavina,

3 Orasje.

4 Q. And were there any Croatian forces there, forces from the HV?

5 A. Your Honours, I know that there were -- was the 203rd or 4th --

6 or 203rd, 204th, 205th, and 206th Brigades of the HVO from that area.

7 I'm not quite sure of their numbers, the Croatian Defence Council, HVO.

8 Q. Okay, so my --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, the question of the

10 date is very important. This document shows two dates. April 1994, it

11 seems that it comes from the General Staff of a British battalion of some

12 sort, and this has been published on the right-hand side, by the Ministry

13 of Defence of the UK in 1995. So a simple mind like myself would draw

14 the simple conclusion that this map was drawn for what was happening in

15 1994.

16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President, and I think this witness has

17 confirmed for us that the ABiH presence went throughout the war. So even

18 if it was 1992, he has marked on the map where the ABiH was as well. So

19 I'll ask him that same question in regard to the HV.

20 Q. Mr. Makar, my question had been: Were there any Croatian forces

21 there, forces from the HV? And your answer had to do with the HVO, so

22 let me ask you again. Were there any Croatian forces, or from the

23 Republic of Croatia, in that area north of Brcko?

24 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I said that it was the HVO

25 forces. As to the HV forces, I don't know about them.

Page 38583

1 MS. WEST: May we have an IC number for this map.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, an IC number for

3 this map, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 The marked portion of P10902 shall be given Exhibit IC967. Thank

6 you, Your Honours.

7 MS. WEST:

8 Q. Mr. Makar, you spoke on Monday in regard to the HVO

9 communications with the Main Staff, and on page 32 of the transcript you

10 had said that you had pointed out that, and this is a quote:

11 "HVO brigades were subordinated to the Command of the 2nd Corps

12 in operative and combat activities, but as regards other military issues,

13 such as logistics, appointments, and other similar issues, they were

14 subordinated to the Main Staff, so that the HVO brigades and their

15 commanders, and other commanding officers, regularly communicated with

16 the Main Staff and the Defence Department in Mostar."

17 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me -- my question is that part of

18 the reason that your model in the Tuzla area worked so well was because

19 the HVO brigades had the ability to communicate with the Main Staff in

20 Mostar?

21 A. Just a moment. I'd like to read the question to the end.

22 Well, I don't know why that would be any special reason. They

23 functioned in the way they functioned, just like the brigades of the

24 BH Army, and their links and communication in this part with the

25 Main Staff only contributed to it being more efficient and effective.

Page 38584

1 Q. And so you would agree that they had effective communication?

2 A. Absolutely, yes.

3 Q. Mr. Makar, you had testified on direct about different ways in

4 which the 2nd Corps received MTS, and I just want to cover a couple of

5 those ways.

6 One of the ways -- or one of the places from which the MTS came,

7 you indicated, was directly from Zagreb, and you were shown five

8 documents, five 2D documents, on that particular subject matter, and

9 three of them were dated in October 1992, one was in January, one was in

10 February. So the last date of the MTS documents that you showed us

11 coming direct from Zagreb was February 1993.

12 My question, sir, is: Would you agree with me that Croatia had a

13 vested interest in the area of the 2nd Corps, specifically the corridor

14 where you fought, so it would not be unusual that Croatia was interested

15 in sending MTS to the 2nd Corps?

16 A. Madam Prosecutor, I can't confirm that. All I know is that what

17 was important for me was that the MTS should arrive. Now, whose

18 interest -- in whose interest it was, I really can't say. Anybody who

19 supplied us with MTS, even if it were the devil himself, we would have

20 accepted it. Now, whose interest it served, I don't want to go into

21 that. I don't know.

22 Q. Another group that you spoke about were seven documents, there

23 were seven documents of MTS coming from the HVO Bosanska Posavina, and

24 those documents are four from December 1992, two from January 1992, and

25 there was just one from April of 1993. Do you remember those documents?

Page 38585

1 A. Well, I do apologise, but sometimes I can't even remember what I

2 had for breakfast. Yes, I do recall those documents, but not which

3 specific ones. If you were to show me, I could be able to say for sure,

4 but, yes, I can confirm that.

5 Q. Okay, Mr. Makar, my question is quite different. Would you agree

6 with me that the HVO Bosanska Posavina also had a vested interest in

7 helping the ABiH in that particular area from stopping the Serbs going

8 through?

9 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I really want to speak the truth

10 and address the facts and be of assistance, but the question is

11 imprecise. The HVO of Bosanska Posavina, as far as I'm concerned, means

12 Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps. Is that what you had in mind?

13 Q. And so it was the Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps that was

14 supplying another operative group of the 2nd Corps; is that right?

15 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, that's precisely it. There were

16 two names for different military formations, to be quite precise, when

17 talking about Bosanska Posavina. We had Operative Group

18 Bosanska Posavina, which was the 107th, the 108th, HVO Brigade, and the

19 21st Brigade of the BH Army under the 2nd Corps, within the composition

20 of the 2nd Corps. But then there was the Operative Zone of

21 Bosanska Posavina and that's what we are speaking about northwards

22 towards the Sava River. So which of those two groups did you mean?

23 Q. So I'm talking about the seven documents that began with 2D01075

24 in which it was MTS from the HVO Bosanska Posavina. Those are the

25 documents to which I am referring. Do you have a memory of those

Page 38586

1 documents?

2 A. Your Honours, now it's clear. I do remember. They were

3 documents about the MTS received from the HVO of Bosanska Posavina, that

4 is to say, the upper group, not the group that came under the 2nd Corps.

5 Q. Right. And there were also a set of documents that came from the

6 HVO -- came directly from Grude; correct?

7 A. That's right, yes.

8 Q. And you showed us eight documents, and those were dated February

9 and March 1993. There were none after March 1993. Do you remember

10 looking at those documents?

11 A. Yes, I do, and I confirm that those are indeed the documents and

12 that it came directly from the Logistics Base at Grude.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned colleague,

14 but I would like to say that in the transcript, while it's still on the

15 screens, on page 28, line 13, the witness said "the Operative Zone of

16 Bosanska Posavina." And then -- but then there was -- and there's

17 something missing there, so just for the transcript.

18 MS. WEST:

19 Q. Mr. Makar, I apologise, but if we can just get off this train of

20 thought for a second.

21 Do you have that Posavina corridor map in front of you still?

22 That is 10902. Do you see that on the screen, 10902?

23 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, yes, I have the map here, but

24 could we say the Posavina corridor, not the corridor of Posavina, the

25 Posavinski corridor?

Page 38587

1 Q. Mr. Makar, just bear with me for a moment. Do you remember when

2 you put the front-line -- earlier you drew a little red line showing

3 where the ABiH was. You indicated that was when you were there, and in

4 1992, 1993, and you also confirmed that was into 1994. Could you just

5 redraw it again.

6 A. Your Honours, I will redraw the line. And to avoid wasting time,

7 let me explain. Judge Antonetti asked whether this was -- but this is an

8 UNPROFOR map.

9 Q. I asked you to draw --

10 A. Yes, I have drawn the line. I have drawn it. I haven't wasted

11 any time.

12 MS. WEST: Thank you. May we have an IC number for that?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. We'll give it an

15 IC number, but I believe the Registrar wanted to give us a change of

16 number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour. The previous number

18 given which is IC00967 was actually supposed to be IC00968 which applies

19 to the current portion of the map that has just been marked by the

20 witness. Thank you, Your Honours.

21 MS. WEST: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Makar, we've now moved on to the set of documents that are

23 coming directly -- there's no translation. Can you hear?

24 A. Now I can hear.

25 Q. All right. We were talking about a set of documents of MTS being

Page 38588

1 set from Grude, from the HVO, and in your testimony regarding this on

2 Monday, you had said:

3 "Pursuant to an agreement with the HVO, all the equipment being

4 sent to the 2nd Corps was being sent in documents by the 107th Brigade of

5 the HVO or the 111th Brigade or the 115th Brigade, and it was the corps

6 that disposed of all the equipment and distributed them where it was

7 needed most."

8 Mr. Makar, is it your testimony that the MTS was sent to the HVO

9 brigades -- well, strike that. Explain to us again why the MTS was sent

10 to the HVO as opposed to the BiH.

11 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, the MTS was not sent to the HVO,

12 and that's not what I said, and that's not what the documents say. The

13 MTS was sent for the 2nd Corps, but in order to facilitate passage

14 through HVO territory the documents were marked that they were going to

15 the 107th HVO. Whoever was transporting this MTS also had documents from

16 the 2nd Corps with the same data, and I explained why this was done.

17 I can give you an example. For example, when I was leading a convoy, I

18 could clarify that by illustrating it with that example.

19 MS. WEST: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

21 understand, because all of this is very complicated.

22 The documents, which show that the MTS were sent to the 107th

23 Brigade of the HVO, but you are saying that this was mentioned to

24 facilitate the transport of this equipment, but in fact this was to be

25 sent to the 2nd Corps. Is that how we should understand what you've just

Page 38589

1 said?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so, that's

3 what I said. You understood correctly.

4 MS. WEST:

5 Q. And, Mr. Makar, the last document you showed us of that group was

6 March 1993, that's right; correct?

7 A. I didn't show you any document, I just looked at the documents,

8 but it probably is, yes, the one.

9 Q. And so far the latest MTS that we have seen to the 2nd Corps is

10 the April 8th document. Let's -- let's turn now to your trip so we can

11 talk about more of the MTS.

12 Your first trip to Mostar was in February of -- excuse me. Your

13 first trip that you spoke about in early 1993 was February 1993; right?

14 A. Your Honours, that's correct, in February 1993. Around the 20th,

15 I think I said.

16 Q. You were there on behalf of the 2nd Corps in order to get MTS;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that was the main reason. I was always going on behalf of

19 the 2nd Corps then and on other occasions.

20 Q. Were there any strings attached to the HVO's willingness to give

21 you MST?

22 A. Your Honours, no, there were no strings. The only condition was

23 we were fighting the common enemy, and we had satisfied that.

24 Q. Was there a decision to give you MTS based on whether there was a

25 friendly relationship between the 2nd Corps and the HVO in your area?

Page 38590

1 A. No, it was not based on that. It was based on the fact that the

2 HVO units, which were part of the 2nd Corps, were in operative and combat

3 terms subordinated to the 2nd Corps Command. Friendship, that's

4 something else.

5 Q. Please go to 2D01111, 2D01111. This is a document that --

6 A. Yes, I found it.

7 Q. This is a document that you looked at during your direct

8 testimony, and this is the February -- it's dated February 26, and you

9 told us that this was the sort of summary report you wrote about the

10 meeting.

11 Now, I'd like to move to the second page of English, but

12 nonetheless it's number 2 in "Logistics." Do you see that part, number 2

13 under "Logistics"?

14 A. I don't understand. Why should I look at it in English?

15 Q. The B/C/S number 2, "Logistics"?

16 A. Yes, I've found it.

17 Q. Okay. And it says:

18 "After familiarising with the situation in 2nd Corps, where all

19 of the ABiH and HVO units are under the joint command and where no

20 conflicts appeared so far, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna will

21 enable undisturbed passage of all MTS logistics to the 2nd Corps."

22 Mr. Makar, my question is: Would you agree with me that Stojic,

23 Rajic, Petkovic, Praljak, all the people you met with, their willingness

24 to secure passage was actually linked to the relationship between the BiH

25 and the HVO?

Page 38591

1 A. Your Honours, I agree that it was based on the military

2 relationship we had, where the brigades of the HVO were part -- or,

3 rather, subordinated, in terms of combat and operations, to the 2nd Corps

4 Command.

5 Q. So would you agree with me that what this actually means is so

6 far there's been no conflicts in the area the 2nd Corps covers between

7 the BiH and the HVO, and so as a result Herceg-Bosna will enable

8 undisturbed passage of MTS? Would you agree with me that that's what

9 that means?

10 A. No, Your Honours, I would not agree with that. That was not the

11 main reason. The main reason was that the brigades of the HVO were part

12 of the 2nd Corps; they were subordinated in combat terms; and they were

13 fighting the common enemy. So the reason was military.

14 Q. Okay. So let's go to part B under the same "Logistics," and this

15 is what you continued to write. You wrote:

16 "Undisturbed passage of means is secured provided there are no

17 new conflicts in Central Bosnia and that the means are to be transferred

18 directly to the 2nd Corps, and not to Central Bosnia or Visoko ..."

19 So, sir, would you agree with me that Stojic, Praljak, Petkovic,

20 and Rajic are attaching strings to the MTS that's going to the 2nd Corps;

21 that as long as there are no new conflicts in Central Bosnia, then the

22 MTS will be transferred to the 2nd Corps?

23 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I would not agree, because it's

24 the first word "undisturbed passage" is secured and so on. If there are

25 conflicts, then there will be problems in passage. Passage will be

Page 38592

1 undisturbed if there are no problems.

2 Q. All right. And this goes on to say that the means are to be

3 transferred directly to the 2nd Corps and not to Central Bosnia or

4 Visoko. Doesn't -- Mr. Makar, wasn't -- did you understand that their

5 concern was -- the HVO's concern was that these -- this MTS could perhaps

6 be turned around and used against them?

7 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, as I personally compiled this,

8 I can say that's not correct. That was our condition. We wanted the MTS

9 to be delivered directly to us in the 2nd Corps. And it could only be

10 sent to Central Bosnia or to Visoko, but we insisted it be sent to the

11 2nd Corps, because we were the ones that needed the MTS most.

12 Q. So let's go ahead a few months in April, so this is still a

13 period of time where you're making these trips to Mostar, and look at

14 2D01149.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,

16 Witness. Since you are the one who drafted this document, I'm sure

17 you'll be able to shed some light on it.

18 I would like you to look at paragraph F, please, under item 1,

19 where it says that the conflicts in Central Bosnia can be settled

20 peacefully through meetings with the HVO. I would like to know what

21 "SSVK" stands for.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, "SSVK" means the Staff

23 of the Supreme Command, "S" standing for the "sh" with the diacritic.

24 Shall I continue?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, the Staff of

Page 38593

1 the Supreme Command Staff of the ABiH?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

4 MS. WEST: 2D01149, 2D01149. This is a document dated April

5 16th --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

7 MS. WEST: -- in Herceg-Bosna. Excuse me, not in Herceg-Bosna.

8 It's dated April 16th.

9 Q. Do you have that in front of you? And this is a letter from

10 Hazim Sadic, who was the commandment of the 2nd Corps.

11 Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday on page 79 of the transcript

12 that the situation in Herceg-Bosna in the month of April was tense. You

13 agreed that was true. However, you said you were not aware of the

14 ultimatum at the beginning of April. But were you aware of the events in

15 Ahmici on April 16th?

16 A. I learned about the events in Ahmici -- well, I don't know the

17 exact date, but I learned about that subsequently and indirectly.

18 Q. All right. And this letter is dated the same date as Ahmici, and

19 it says:

20 "Based on the analysis of the situation at the area of

21 North-Eastern Bosnia, region of Tuzla because of constant activity by the

22 7th Corps of Serbian-Montenegro aggressor, we are announcing that because

23 of the events in Herzegovina as well as Central Bosnia, complete

24 situation at the zone of the responsibility of the 2nd Corps is growing

25 more difficult."

Page 38594

1 And he goes on to talk about what he hoped the BH government

2 could do. But the last paragraph is where I would like to focus, and it

3 says:

4 "With objective to conduct armed combat at the 2nd Corps

5 responsibility zone, we request that convoys currently at Grude are to be

6 immediately secured a passage (under armed escort) towards the 2nd Corps

7 responsibility zone, and they are going to receive the convoy with their

8 armed escort."

9 Sir, would you agree with me that at least by April 16th, convoys

10 to the 2nd Corps from Grude had been stalled?

11 A. I didn't understand your question. Were the convoys stopped, was

12 that your question?

13 Q. Sir, my question is: Mr. Sadic wrote this, and do you agree that

14 on April 16th he is asking for the release of convoys at Grude?

15 A. No, I don't agree. That was not the idea. This was a convoy

16 which arrived normally, but because of the situation the commander asked

17 that a special escort be provided so that the convoy could reach the area

18 of the 2nd Corps more securely, and it has to do with what you misread,

19 because of the constant activity of 7 Corps. You said "the 7th Corps,"

20 but actually it's 7 Corps of the Serb Army were attacking the 2nd Corps,

21 which is why it was necessary for the convoy to have an armed escort in

22 order to arrive safely.

23 Q. Mr. Makar, let's move forward a few days, three days forward, and

24 go to P10897 --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a very short question,

Page 38595

1 Witness.

2 I'm trying to understand how the civilian authorities intervened

3 in military operations. It's sometimes very difficult to understand, and

4 before me here I have a document which is probably a telex, because

5 there's no signature on it. This document says that it is strictly

6 confidential, classified, urgent, a very urgent document, which comes

7 from the 2nd Corps. As far as I know, the 2nd Corps is a military body,

8 and all of a sudden here, in this document of a military nature, we see

9 the names of three civilian representatives; the president of the region

10 of Tuzla, Izet Hadzic, the president of the HVO, Ivo Andric, the Croatian

11 Community of Soli, and the county of Tuzla, President Selim Beslagic.

12 How can you explain this, that the civilian authorities are mentioned and

13 seem to be playing a part in this document, which comes from a military

14 body?

15 That said, the document mentions the fact that the conflict

16 should be stopped, that a joint command should be set up, and so on and

17 so forth. This seems to be a document of a purely military nature, and

18 the civilian authorities are mentioned in this document.

19 Do you have an answer to give me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have a response.

21 This document is linked with a document we have just discussed, 111111 --

22 01111. That's the statement or, rather, the letter compiled based on my

23 visit to Mostar and sent both to the Presidency and the Supreme Command

24 Staff and to Mr. Rasim Delic. The civilian authorities in the Tuzla

25 district, in the 2nd Corps area, was a district. There were municipal

Page 38596

1 authorities, there were civilian police organs, there were

2 fully-established civilian authorities there, as far as was possible in

3 wartime conditions. We closely cooperated with the organs of the

4 district and the municipality. Competencies were strictly separated.

5 The Command of the 2nd Corps was responsible for armed combat, whereas

6 the organs of the civilian authorities, whether district or municipal,

7 were responsible for providing the material and other conditions, raising

8 manpower levels and so on, for the conduct of the armed struggle.

9 In every situation where this was necessary, the Presidency of

10 the district, the mayors of the municipalities and the presidents of the

11 then crisis staffs would meet, together with the representatives of both

12 religious communities of both religions, and with the narrower part of

13 the 2nd Corps Command. At these meetings, we would be informed of the

14 political views of the civilian authorities relating to the activities of

15 the 2nd Corps.

16 So let me go back a little. The civilian authorities were fully

17 informed of all the conclusions reached at the meeting in Mostar,

18 document 011111. Because of the events which were developing fast after

19 such meetings, this sort of document was drawn up. It is, I would call

20 it, a civilian/military document. As a corps, the corps commander, for

21 example, could not write to the Presidency of the Republic, but it could

22 be done through the president of the district or the region of Tuzla.

23 That's why both the district president and the commander of the 2nd Corps

24 signed the document.

25 As the situation in our area was such that both the HVO -- that

Page 38597

1 the HVO was also involved in the same struggle, the signature of the

2 president of the HVO, Ivo Andric, is there too, as well as the signature

3 of Selim Beslagic, who was one of the most prominent representatives of

4 Tuzla municipality, which was the strongest municipality. This explains

5 why the document is the way it is. And you can see that this document,

6 if you look at the bottom, it says that Commander Arif Pasalic is

7 certifying the correctness of the copy, and you can see that this is the

8 Command of the 4th Corps in Mostar. It follows logically from this that

9 the document which arrived in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

10 also received by the chief of the Main Staff of the Army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, who then forwarded it, through the commander of the

12 4th Corps, to Mostar.

13 So that's my explanation.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for your

15 answer.

16 Ms. West.

17 MS. WEST: Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, if we can go to P10897, P10897. This is a document dated

19 April 19th, just three days later.

20 A. Could you please repeat this. 10 --

21 Q. 10897. This is a document dated April 19th --

22 A. Yes, yes, I found it now.

23 Q. It's from General Petkovic. It looks like it's to the 115th

24 Brigade in Tuzla. And the 115th Brigade was one of the brigades in the

25 ABiH; correct? In the 2nd Corps, excuse me.

Page 38598

1 A. Your Honours, this is a document issued by the Main Staff of the

2 HVO, sent to the 115th HVO Brigade directly.

3 Q. Mr. Makar, is the 115th HVO Brigade one of the brigades that was

4 under the command -- the operative command of the 2nd Corps?

5 A. Yes, it was under the operative command of the 2nd Corps, and in

6 all combat activities it carried out orders coming from the 2nd Corps.

7 So this order I assume did arrive, but the brigade never implemented it,

8 it never obeyed this order.

9 Q. Good enough. Let's go through the order itself. It says:

10 "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards

11 Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia, I here by order:

12 1. Immediately inform the 2nd Corps Command about the behavior

13 of the ABiH;

14 2. Inform them that you, "the 115th, "are abandoning positions

15 towards Serbs;

16 3. Organise the defence of the Croatian people;

17 4. Pass this order to the 108th;

18 5. Trust me, I have issued this order heavy-heartedly, but in

19 the name of Croats from Central Bosnia, I had no other choice."

20 Sir, my first question to you regards the first sentence, it

21 says: "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards the

22 Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia." Did that happen?

23 A. I don't know whether this happened, but it certainly didn't

24 happen in the 2nd Corps, nor did the BH Army abandon the positions

25 towards the Serbs - I'm referring to the brigades of the 2nd Corps - nor

Page 38599

1 did any HVO units abandon their positions towards the Serbs, but I am

2 referring only to the 2nd Corps now.

3 Q. And would you agree with me that it appears the reason

4 General Petkovic sent this order for the 115th to abandon was because he

5 wanted them to come back to Central Bosnia, and, under number 3, organise

6 the defence of the Croatian people?

7 A. Your Honours, I cannot know what General Petkovic thought or

8 meant, either then or now.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, we all have

10 Mr. Petkovic's order before us. If we read this order, we see that

11 General Petkovic seemingly had that the ABiH abandon their positions

12 towards the Serbs. According to this information, the ABiH is going

13 towards Central Bosnia. Perhaps an offensive is being prepared in

14 Central Bosnia. He reacts, therefore, because he prepares this order,

15 and there are five items contained in this order. He first of all asks

16 the 115 Brigade to advise the Command of the 2nd Corps about the

17 behaviour of the ABiH, to inform it about the fact that the positions

18 have been abandoned, to organise a defence of the Croatian people, to

19 pass this on to the 108th Brigade. Therefore, there is a military

20 situation that ensues from this document.

21 Was General Petkovic misinformed, or is what he is saying right;

22 in other words, the ABiH is dropping its position towards the Serbs and

23 moving into Central Bosnia, and of course this does have an impact on the

24 HVO that must keep the Serbs within the lines, but that must also protect

25 the Croats?

Page 38600

1 Ms. West is putting forward another idea, as far as this document

2 is concerned. What can you tell us? From what I understood, you said

3 you didn't know anything about it. You know nothing about it, if that is

4 the case, but I found that a little bit surprising, because the 115th

5 Brigade was to inform the Command of the 2nd Corps. That said, it must

6 have been a matter of some urgency, because you can see, as I can, that

7 this telegram was sent at 2340. The time is important.

8 Sir, before we have the break --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, and what is the

10 question?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my question is as follows:

12 The military situation described in this document is the military

13 situation which you experienced, i.e., the fact that the ABiH abandon

14 their positions towards the Serbs so that the ABiH could go to

15 Central Bosnia, and then General Petkovic asks for the Command of the

16 2nd Corps to be informed, but also to maintain their positions vis-a-vis

17 the Serbs, because if they have nothing before them, then they can just

18 advance and attack?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I said

20 clearly, and I answered the question clearly, in the 2nd Corps not a

21 single unit of the BH Army, not a brigade of the 13th, not a single

22 brigade of the HVO, abandoned their positions facing the Serbs. Had just

23 one brigade done that, or part of a brigade done that, we might not be

24 sitting here today, or at least I certainly wouldn't. It would have been

25 a catastrophe. We couldn't set aside a single unit, and there was no

Page 38601

1 point in discussing anything like that. So I can confirm, once again,

2 let me state, that in the 2nd Corps not a single BH Army unit, not a

3 single HVO unit, left their positions or went towards Central Bosnia or

4 anywhere else from the 2nd Corps zone, at all. And Zvonko Juric was a

5 very serious and intelligent person, and he probably assessed that there

6 was no point in discussing the matter further.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So should we draw

8 the conclusion that General Petkovic was misinformed, or do you think

9 that there could be another reason for that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, if

11 that refers to what I was saying about the 2nd Corps, then

12 General Petkovic was completely misinformed.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 We're going to have a break.

15 And, Ms. West, I think that you have about 34 or 32 minutes left.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

19 MS. WEST:

20 Q. Mr. Makar, the last trip that you took to Mostar was May 1st and

21 2nd; correct?

22 A. I think it was the 30th of April and 1st and 2nd of May. But,

23 yes, roughly, that's right.

24 Q. Okay. And you were able to negotiate MTS and bring it back to

25 the 2nd Corps during that trip; correct?

Page 38602

1 A. Madam Prosecutor, it wasn't exactly like that. It was very

2 complicated, but I can confirm that I did bring all the MTS or

3 practically all the MTS over, yes.

4 Q. You agree with me that the last MTS documents upon which you have

5 testified, the last date is May 2nd?

6 A. I agree they were documents about procurement or, rather, what I

7 did and where I was and how long I was there, because later on other

8 people went. I didn't go anymore.

9 Q. Are you aware of events in Mostar in the month of May of 1993?

10 A. In what sense do you mean am I aware of events? Which events?

11 Q. Were you aware that beginning on May 9th, there was a roundup of

12 Muslims living in Mostar who were put in detention?

13 A. I assume you mean whether I knew that at that time, whether I was

14 aware of that at that time, and the answer is, no, I learnt about that

15 later on.

16 Q. All right. On Monday of this week, you testified -- well, you

17 gave some testimony, and you were talking about the enemy and what you

18 were protecting. And on page 74 of the transcript, you said, I quote:

19 "As far as we were concerned, Chetniks were the ones who attacked

20 us. Those who attacked us and those did not want to live in community as

21 we had been living up until then, they wished to destroy the values of

22 the life -- the kind of life up until then."

23 Do you remember that testimony?

24 A. I do remember, but you didn't quote that correctly. In the

25 second sentence, it says "not want to live," so people who no longer

Page 38603

1 wished to live as they had been living until then, so people who wanted

2 something else, and that's what I said, the Greater Serbia Project.

3 Q. So, is it your testimony, sir, that as a Croat, BH Army soldier

4 living in Tuzla, you were fighting to defend your way of life?

5 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I always said that I went to the

6 war to defend -- to defend myself, to save my own life, my family's

7 lives, the friends, and people I'd lived with until then and who also

8 wanted to defend the kind of life we were living up until then. We gave

9 no thought to what kind of state we would have afterwards, because it was

10 a matter of survival.

11 Q. And Tuzla was an ethnically-mixed community; correct?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And so part of your fighting, you were fighting for the right to

14 live peacefully among Croats, Serbs, and Muslims; correct?

15 A. No, that's not right. We fought so that the citizens could live

16 peacefully and live a normal life, as they had been living up until then.

17 And since that was not the case, we were forced to fight for that kind of

18 life using weapons.

19 Q. Mr. Makar, let's move forward one month after your last visit to

20 Mostar, which was the beginning of May. We're going to move forward to

21 June 15th, and this is 2D00851, 2D00851. The English is in the front,

22 the B/C/S is right behind it. This is a June 15th --

23 A. Yes, I have found it.

24 Q. -- 1993. It's minutes of an HVO meeting with Mr. Prlic and

25 Mr. Stojic in attendance, and it's -- it talks -- in it, it talks about

Page 38604

1 Croats living outside Herceg-Bosna in a place like Tuzla, so let's read

2 part of it and then we'll talk about it.

3 Item 1:

4 "The head of the Defence Department of the HVO, Croatian Defence

5 Council of the HZ-HB, Mr. Bruno Stojic, informed the session of the

6 military and security situation in the territory of the HZ-HB. In his

7 report, he said that the Muslim forces were carrying out coordinated

8 attacks in Central Bosnia and northern Herzegovina to seize areas which,

9 according to the Vance-Owen Plan, were intended to be included in the

10 areas with a majority Croatian authority, that's provinces 8 and 10, to

11 isolate, terrorise, and destroy everything that is Croatian. In the area

12 of Travnik, in the municipalities of Kiseljak, Vitez, and Vares, and in

13 the municipalities of Konjic and Jablanica, as well as in locations where

14 the Croats were in the minority population, for example, in Sarajevo,

15 Zenica, Tuzla, the survival of every single Croat and the Croatian people

16 as a whole is seriously threatened.

17 "The Defence Department of the HVO HZ-HB and the Main Staff are

18 doing everything to protect the people and are taking effective military

19 actions to defend and protect the areas under attack. The difficulties

20 standing in the way of a complete protection of the Croatian people and

21 the area are as follows: a shortage of MTS, problems in carrying out the

22 mobilisation in certain municipalities (Ljubuski and Puselje),

23 ineffectiveness of the military courts, and a lack of political

24 decision-making by the Presidency of the HZ-HB which could decide to

25 withdraw all military units and the Croats living there from areas

Page 38605

1 outside the outlined Croatian provinces, meet with the HVO of the

2 municipalities of Ljubuski and Puselje, and immediately organise the work

3 of the Military Court, and undertake additional efforts to find materiel

4 and technical equipment."

5 Mr. Makar, just go to page 3, and I'm just going to read one more

6 thing. Page 3 of the B/C/S, it's page 3 of the English, and it's

7 number 3 under conclusions, and it says:

8 "A proposal was made to the Presidency of the HZ-HB and the HVO

9 supreme commander to adopt a decision to pull out all military units from

10 areas outside the designated Croatian provinces, together with the

11 Croatian inhabitants living there; to this effect, demand cooperation and

12 assistance from UNPROFOR and UNHCR."

13 Mr. Makar, you're a Croat who's lived in Tuzla for a long time.

14 You would not have left Tuzla if you had been ordered to leave by the

15 HVO, would you?

16 A. The HVO couldn't have ordered me to do that. Only the Main Staff

17 of the Supreme Command of the BH Army could have issued orders to me.

18 Q. I understand you're saying they couldn't do it. Had they done

19 it, had they nonetheless ordered you to do that, would you have left?

20 A. Well, once again, that's a hypothetical question. I wouldn't

21 have left even if I had received orders from goodness knows whom, because

22 my children were there, my family was there, my friends were there, so if

23 we needed to die, we would all die together. So it's a hypothetical

24 question. That's the best I can do with that answer.

25 Q. Back -- we'll go back to the document, and this is page 1 of the

Page 38606

1 English, page 1 of the B/C/S, and at the very bottom of the English. It

2 says:

3 "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposal set out by

4 Bruno Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army, and

5 it's supreme commander, Izetbegovic, a war criminal, because of the

6 crimes committed by the BH Army."

7 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the view of the HVO in

8 this case Mr. Stojic, towards the BH Army appears to be quite different

9 then what you described in your direct testimony?

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, it's

11 Kvesic here. Your Honours, I think the witness understood that, too, but

12 as I'm on my feet, it's not Mr. Stojic's position, as it says in the

13 transcript, but it is Mr. Kvesic, and I think that the witness understood

14 it that way too.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I had understood

16 the same thing.

17 Ms. West, indeed it seems that it's Mr. Kvesic that said that.

18 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I'll read this one more time, and it is

19 either way, whether it's Stojic or Kvesic:

20 "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposals --"

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, Kvesic, not Kevic, Kvesic. I think

22 you misspoke last time, and that's why this passage was perhaps not

23 recognised, because it's correct in the transcript.

24 MS. WEST: Thank you.

25 Q. "In his remarks, Mr. K-v-e-s-i-c upheld the proposals set out by

Page 38607

1 Mr. B. Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army and

2 its supreme commander, Mr. Izetbegovic, a war criminal because of the

3 crimes committed by the army."

4 And so, Mr. Makar, my question to you: Would you agree with me

5 that the view of the HVO towards the BH Army here appears to be quite

6 different than what you described it to be in your direct testimony?

7 A. Madam Prosecutor, it seems that I can't agree with you on many

8 counts. I can't explain and interpret HVO positions. All I can say is

9 what I know. And what I saw is in document 0001, those are the positions

10 I heard from the gentleman when I was there. Now, I can't comment on

11 this document, because I don't know.

12 Q. Your testimony, I believe this was yesterday, it's page 89, you

13 indicated that, and I'll quote:

14 "My standpoint in general is the following: There was no

15 conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO on the

16 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

17 In regard to this last section that you -- that we just read,

18 would it be fair to say that the HVO disagreed with the assessment that

19 you gave here in court?

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, I'm sorry to intervene. I think your

21 question is not quite correct. You say "the HVO," but we have two

22 persons who spoke here.

23 MS. WEST: Thank you.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So I think it would be correct to say "the

25 opinion of these two persons."

Page 38608

1 MS. WEST: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

2 Q. So, Mr. Makar, my question is that: Would you agree with me here

3 that these two people that we spoke of have disagreed with -- or at least

4 back then disagreed with the assessment that you gave this Trial Chamber

5 that there was no conflict between the BH Army and the HVO?

6 A. Madam Prosecutor, I can agree with you in saying that what it

7 says here is what it says. If you ask me, Is that what the papers say,

8 then I would say, yes, that's what the paper say, but I don't know that

9 that was the case. Have I made myself clear?

10 Q. No. Because my question is, isn't that -- what's on this paper,

11 isn't that quite different than the testimony that you have to the

12 Trial Chamber?

13 A. Oh, that, yes. That's right.

14 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

15 [Questioned by the Court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Witness, I have a follow-up question regarding this document,

18 which is important in one aspect. It's the 15th of June, 1993, the 42nd

19 session of the Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community of

20 Herceg-Bosna, held in Mostar. It's 10.00 a.m. The following

21 participants: Mr. Prlic, who is not in this courtroom; Mr. Zubak;

22 Mr. Buntic; and so on and so forth; and Mr. Stojic, who is in this

23 courtroom today. And at the end of page 1, we have something that seems

24 to me as being important and should be assessed as such. Mr. Kvesic

25 upholds the proposals set out by Mr. Stojic, but that's not what's really

Page 38610

1 have additional questions, and I have a new document, too, which I will

2 hand 'round in the binders.

3 And while the usher is doing that, I'll dwell on the document

4 we've just been looking at.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

6 Q. Mr. Makar, we have seen here, in the document shown to you by the

7 Prosecutor, that there is a proposal, and it says Mr. Kvesic supported

8 the proposals of Mr. Bruno Stojic. And he proposes that the BH Army

9 should be proclaimed an enemy army and that supreme commander, because of

10 the crimes that had been committed, should be proclaimed a war criminal.

11 Now, would you look at page 3, which is the last page, and it is

12 page 3 in the English as well, and look at the conclusions there with

13 respect to this.

14 Have you found the document?

15 A. Just tell me the number of the document again, because I closed

16 the file.

17 Q. Yes, I should have done that for the transcript. It is 2D00851.

18 So let's look at the conclusions now.

19 A. Yes, I've found them.

20 Q. I'm going to give you some time to look through them, but can you

21 find anywhere in the conclusions that the HVO made that particular

22 conclusion whereby the BH Army should be declared an enemy army and that

23 Alija Izetbegovic be declared a war criminal?

24 A. I'd have to read through this, to take a moment to read through

25 the conclusions, so if you'd like to wait.

Page 38611

1 Q. Yes, I will give you time to read through it.

2 A. Your Honours and Ms. Nozica, just as I answered the Prosecutor, I

3 could confirm here to you, too, that that's not what it says here. It

4 doesn't say that here.

5 Q. All right, fine. Now, Mr. Makar, throughout your testimony you

6 spoke about how the 2nd Corps did not have any conflicts or wasn't in

7 conflict with the HVO. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you

8 know whether the other BH Army corps, up until this time, had any

9 conflicts with the HVO perhaps?

10 A. Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, I've already said that it is my general

11 view and position that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we should not use the word

12 "conflict" and talk about the conflict between the HVO and BH Army,

13 because, based on my own personal analyses, it was not a conflict either

14 on the whole of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or its majority

15 part, or by virtue of the number of included people. There was not a

16 majority on any side, and judging by the forces involved, the same would

17 apply. And I agree and I can confirm this, that in other corps there

18 were no clashes or conflicts up until the time you mentioned, as far as I

19 know. You rather took me aback with that question, but as far as I know,

20 I don't think so.

21 Q. All right. Now I'd like to go back to when those conflicts

22 started and the HVO position with respect to the conflicts, and I'd like

23 to look at 2D01111.

24 A. Yes, I remember the document.

25 Q. You'll find it in my pink binder, so we can have a look at it.

Page 38612

1 I'm just going to state what you said during both the

2 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, that this is a report written

3 by you after your first visit to Mostar, and it says here after the talks

4 were held, the team conveyed the results of the talks to the central part

5 of the 2nd Corps Command and to the Municipal Presidency of the Tuzla

6 district:

7 "Based on all the aforementioned, we submit the following

8 report."

9 Now, first, Mr. Makar, these points, 1 to 1(g) and "Logistics"

10 are these positions that you had voiced at these meetings with

11 Mr. Stojic, Rajic, Praljak, and Petkovic?

12 A. Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, these are precisely the positions and

13 stands that I conveyed exactly related to the Presidency and corps

14 command and so on.

15 Q. So we're talking about February 1993. And in view of the series

16 of questions that you were asked during the cross-examination, I should

17 like to ask you to go through all the conclusions. We'll go through that

18 together to see what the gentlemen from the HVO who were present propose.

19 Under A, it says representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are

20 completely ready to consistently implement all items of the agreement

21 between the Presidency president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and the

22 president of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman.

23 Just wait a moment, please, Mr. Makar.

24 Mr. Makar, is that what you were told at those meetings?

25 A. Yes, I can confirm that, that that is precisely what I was told.

Page 38613

1 Q. Now, under B it says Mr. Mate Boban offered the Presidency

2 president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the text of the joint statement which

3 would remove any misunderstandings between the Croatian and Muslim nation

4 in BiH?

5 A. Yes, I can confirm that that is so.

6 Q. C, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are offering the

7 formation of a joint command of the BiH armed forces and have a proposal

8 from their representatives for that. Is that what you were told at the

9 meeting as well?

10 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that that was the proposal put

11 forward at the meeting by HVO representatives.

12 Q. Under C, the -- I'm sorry, D, different standpoints of the

13 Presidency president of the Republic of BiH, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and

14 in brackets it says "solving the problems in BiH by negotiation," and the

15 chief of the Supreme Command Staff, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, and in brackets

16 it says "not to accept the results of the negotiations but to fight to

17 the end," are causing dissatisfaction in the HVO of Herceg-Bosna, because

18 they suggest that the army is taking upon itself the right to make

19 decisions about political issues.

20 Now, Mr. Makar, were you told that at that same meeting?

21 A. Your Honours, I can confirm that that is what was said.

22 Q. Now we come to E. The grouping of strong BiH forces in

23 Central Bosnia turned against the HVO units is considered a threat and

24 potential danger from a new conflict, and many soldiers were killed and

25 wounded in the conflict so far. All the forces should be turned against

Page 38614

1 the common enemy on the focal axes, and for that purpose, "we request the

2 deployment of three BH Army brigades and one HVO brigade for the

3 operation to deblock Sarajevo."

4 Is that what you were told as well?

5 A. Yes, that's what we were told, Your Honours.

6 Q. In connection with these conflicts we spoke about, under F it

7 says the conflicts in Central Bosnia have to be resolved peacefully by

8 means of agreements and meetings between representatives of the HVO and

9 the Staff of the Supreme Command, as well as by an agreement at the level

10 of the president of the Republic and Mr. Mate Boban. Was this also said

11 to you, sir?

12 A. Yes, I can confirm that that's what was said.

13 Q. It says the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

14 the Supreme Command Staff have to be relocated outside Sarajevo.

15 Unfortunately, we don't have the rest of the text. This is a Prosecution

16 document, but do you remember this being said?

17 A. Yes, I remember that the relocation of these organs outside

18 Sarajevo was mentioned.

19 Q. Mr. Makar, you, yourself, said that you compiled this document

20 personally and it was delivered to the president of the Presidency,

21 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; to the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command,

22 Mr. Sefer Halilovic; to the Command of the Armed Forces Staff; to the

23 commander, Mr. Rasim Delic; and to Mr. Bruno Stojic, the president of the

24 HVO. And during your examination-in-chief, you said, and it says so here

25 in the first sentence, that you informed the 2nd Corps Command and the

Page 38615

1 Presidency of the Tuzla municipality about this.

2 Do you know whether you ever received a response to this letter

3 from any of these addressees?

4 A. Your Honours, I only wish to say that it was not I who conveyed

5 the results of these talks, but at the meeting there was a whole team. I

6 was there as the Chief of Staff. The commander of Operative Group 2,

7 Osman Puskar was there, and the commander of the 107th HVO Brigade,

8 Ivan Mijacevic was there too. And in response to this question by Madam

9 Nozica, I don't remember that anything about this was sent as a

10 follow-up.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Makar.

12 Mr. Makar, there are certain points I'd like to clarify arising

13 from your cross-examination.

14 On several occasions, and I'm talking about the end of 1992 and

15 early 1993, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about operations being

16 conducted in the far north of your territory, near this corridor that

17 there was so much mention of, and if I understood you correctly, you said

18 that the Operative Zone of Bosnia and Posavina gave military support to

19 the 2nd Corps. I'm afraid that this was not fully understood in this

20 courtroom, so could you tell the Court whether you had sufficient MTS for

21 you to provide support to the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, or was it

22 the other way around?

23 A. Your Honours, Madam Nozica, this is the same problem that arose

24 during my cross-examination by the esteemed Prosecutor, Madam West. To

25 clarify things to everybody, it might be best if the map were brought up

Page 38616

1 again so that I could explain what the Operative Group of

2 Bosanska Posavina was and Operative Group 1 of Bosanska Posavina.

3 Q. Well, Mr. Makar, I think you have explained what the operative

4 group was, and you can repeat now what it was, if you like, but which map

5 would you like to see? Is it this one [indicates]?

6 A. Yes, precisely this one.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we then have the map. Could the

8 usher show this map, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,

11 based on the map. Maybe it's better if I put the question first.

12 General, a while ago Ms. Nozica mentioned the document which

13 talks about the deblocking of Sarajevo. I listened to what she said and

14 I listened to you answer. And then whilst I was listening to you, I

15 looked at the map, and the positions of the 2nd Corps are close to

16 Sarajevo. Between Tuzla and Sarajevo, there might be 100 kilometres or

17 so. But on the map you have before you, where we see the Serb lines in

18 July 1993, if the 2nd Corps was to move towards Sarajevo, it seems to me

19 that this would raise three major issues from a military standpoint: A,

20 on moving towards Sarajevo, and if you abandon your positions, then the

21 front -- Serb front-line located at the top could follow you and could

22 encircle you, because the other front-line is lower down. Assuming that

23 the front-line does not follow you, this is what the map indicates. You

24 would have to cut across one front-line between Olovo, Vares, and Visoko.

25 And even if you were to cross this first front-line, you would then hit

Page 38617

1 on a second front-line, which is a line which shows us that Sarajevo was

2 surrounded.

3 Was this a serious military consideration, in other words, that

4 the 2nd Corps could have unblocked Sarajevo in July of 1993, given these

5 parameters I've just submitted to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I can

7 answer your question.

8 The document you mentioned, and the proposal which the HVO in

9 Mostar put forward at the talks and we conveyed to the Supreme Command,

10 was to set aside three brigades of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and one

11 brigade of the HVO, but this did not refer to the brigades of what was

12 then the 2nd Corps because, as I've already said, at that time the

13 2nd Corps was simply unable to set aside even a smaller unit than a

14 brigade. That's how fierce the fighting was. I mentioned that when we

15 were talking about the alleged abandonment of positions either by the BH

16 forces or the HVO units. But what would have happened, had part of the

17 forces been sent from the 2nd Corps to deblock Sarajevo, that was not

18 possible at that time, but it was done later on, as regards the

19 2nd Corps.

20 As I've already mentioned, there was an operative defensive, and

21 after that our corps gradually moved to a tactical offensive and, later

22 on, an operative offensive on many parts of the front, and we achieved

23 this in the following way: We set apart parts of our best units to

24 create mobile units which were able to engage in combat in any part of,

25 conditionally speaking, all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. These were the

Page 38618

1 so-called manoeuvre brigades. Once we had done this, in terms of

2 organisation, an attempt was made to lift the siege of Sarajevo, which

3 was not successful. I, personally, with a few other officers from the

4 corps command, brought a brigade, one of these manoeuvre brigades of the

5 2nd Corps, to positions for lifting the siege of Sarajevo. We even

6 reached Trebevic. Up to that point, I hadn't ever been there. I wasn't

7 sure precisely where it was. But as you said quite correctly, the route

8 we took to get there was the one you mentioned, and we arrived at this,

9 as you called it, other line, second line, in order to reach the first

10 line, which is this little circle around Sarajevo, which was our aim, but

11 the attempt was unsuccessful, both as regards our brigade and all the

12 other brigades.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Makar, when asked by His Honour Judge Antonetti, you said the

16 proposal was made by these people from the HVO and that you conveyed it

17 to the Supreme Defence Staff. Was this the Supreme Defence Staff of the

18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that did not enter the transcript, so

19 to whom did you convey this proposal?

20 A. Well, it says in the document that this proposal was made and

21 conveyed to the Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. Very well. You have the map before you. For you to delimit the

24 areas of the Posavina Operative Group and the other group, you have the

25 map. Can you mark this now with -- mark one with one X and the other

Page 38619

1 with two Xs?

2 A. So we will use two Xs, since it's the 2nd Corps. That's the area

3 of the Bosanska Posavina Operative Group, so, conditionally speaking,

4 this is where it was. And to facilitate understanding, where it says

5 "Gracac, Brcko, and Srebrenik" to the south, more or less, that is where

6 the Operative Group within the 2nd Corps was. The

7 Bosanska Posavina/Orasje Operative Group is where there is one X, that's

8 the short red line right next to the River Sava. It contains several HVO

9 brigades, but they had very strong artillery, and I will take the liberty

10 of indicating this by arrows. Their artillery fired towards our defence

11 zone along this whole area which Madam West conditionally named the

12 corridor. That's what I was trying to say. So they were providing

13 artillery support to us because their artillery was stronger than the

14 artillery of our Operative Group 1.

15 Q. Mr. Makar, to make things perfectly clear, where there is one X,

16 is that the Operative Zone of Posavina which is part of the HVO?

17 A. Yes, I said that these were HVO brigades.

18 Q. Were they part of the HVO?

19 A. Yes, they were part of the HVO, they were within its composition.

20 Q. Mr. Makar -- I would now briefly like to pass into private

21 session, because there's a document I want to put to the witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Operative Group of

23 the Posavina, you've indicated a cross in that area. It is beyond -- two

24 Xs, all right. But the artillery support which you indicated, well, does

25 this mean that these HVO units were on Croatian territory? Because as

Page 38626

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session, and

2 Mr. Kovacic has been authorised by the Chamber to ask a few questions,

3 and the time used will be deducted from his overall time.

4 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

6 Q. Witness, please, you were shown a map, and you marked some things

7 on it, and you were asked a lot about the map of this Boskoski corridor,

8 P10902 was the number. You have it on the screen.

9 Now, I happened to notice, and bearing in mind your testimony at

10 the beginning, when you said that the plans of the Serb forces had been

11 made 100 years ago and were just revitalised or revived later on, we see

12 here the positions of the JNA or, rather, the Serb forces in the area of

13 the territory of the Republic of Croatia, and in Bosnia-Herzegovina as

14 well, all a little to the west of the territory of Yugoslavia.

15 Now, if we look at this entire map and this whole area, do you

16 agree that for the JNA or, rather, the Serbs that helped it, it was

17 completely irrelevant, in actual fact, on whose territory -- the

18 territory of which state was the territory that they wished to take

19 control of? In other words, the Serb forces, whether their plans were --

20 plans were to take over territory -- that their plans were to take over

21 territory, take control of territory, regardless of the republic that

22 territory was located in?

23 A. Your Honours --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

25 Ms. West.

Page 38627

1 MS. WEST: Thank you. Although I did not ask this exact

2 question, I was asking it from the Croatian side, the response we got was

3 that he would have to on this, and he didn't want to answer it. And I

4 would say that the same holds here, and that he can cannot speculate.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just wait. I have to confer

6 with my colleagues.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the Chamber has

9 conferred, given the question raised and the objection raised as well,

10 and we feel that we are speculating here and that, therefore, you are not

11 authorised to ask this question.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm in

13 your hands, but for the record, and for you, too, I'd just like to say

14 one thing, since I didn't have an opportunity to respond to the objection

15 raised by the Prosecutor.

16 I didn't ask for speculation. The witness, at the very beginning

17 of his testimony, spoke about history and certain Serb strategic

18 documents. And at the end of his testimony now, I just happened to link

19 that up with the situation on the ground with the positions that were

20 indicated here. So I'm not asking for any speculation.

21 Now, my question was whether he is a soldier, and I referred to

22 his profession and his professionalism, whether he is a soldier -- and

23 we've heard the kind of education and training he had, and what he is, a

24 military expert, whether he sees this situation, which I consider --

25 whether he considers the situation to be as I have explained it and as I

Page 38628

1 see it. So it is not speculation. We can have a clear answer from the

2 witness, whatever he chooses to say.

3 And, second, the relevancy of that question is, first of all, to

4 be found in paragraph 232 of the indictment, the international armed

5 conflict area, and partially in paragraph 15, which speaks about

6 conspiracy or the joint criminal enterprise.

7 So this wasn't speculation, and the Prosecutor was wrong on that

8 score. Her question was far different from what I'm asking now.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just add a

10 sentence to complete what Mr. Kovacic was just saying.

11 In view of the fact that the witness referred to certain

12 historical documents and plans to create a Greater Serbia, I would just

13 like to emphasise, precisely within the context of what Mr. Kovacic was

14 saying, that the plans to create a Greater Serbia were drawn up at a time

15 when the state of Croatia did not exist within the present borders, or

16 the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in those plans for a Greater Serbia

17 they always incorporated the same areas, the same territory, both in

18 today's Croatia and in today's Bosnia-Herzegovina, which are populated

19 predominantly by a Serb population. And so the question by my learned

20 friend Mr. Kovacic, if I understand it correctly, was geared towards that

21 end; that is to say, the plan to create a Greater Serbia on the same

22 area, quite independently of which specific state they would be targeting

23 at this point in time.

24 MS. WEST: If I could only be heard briefly.

25 Your Honour, the witness has indicated a project about

Page 38629

1 Greater Serbia that he had been involved in, but I quote from page 90 of

2 today. He said:

3 "I am here as a fact witness and a specific area of knowledge. I

4 am not here as an expert. I don't want to go into this any further,

5 because I have not prepared myself to testify about it."

6 He should not be allowed to speculate.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the question that

8 you have raised can be touched upon when your expert witness will be

9 brought to this courtroom. I had the opportunity to read his report, and

10 this topic will have ample time to be dealt with when your expert witness

11 will be brought into this courtroom. So this expert witness will be in a

12 much better position than this current witness to testify on this.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

14 please. I completely agree and wholly accept your position, but I think

15 that it is my duty to respond to my colleague saying it was speculation.

16 This is far from speculation, in view of this witness's professional

17 qualifications. Thank you.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to adhere to

19 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I think it is my turn to complete my

20 redirect, because this is a Stojic witness. And so following up to the

21 question that was asked - I don't want to repeat it - in view of your

22 ruling, I'd like to ask the witness about something he ought to know

23 about and the events he ought to know because, because he was a member of

24 the JNA.

25 Mr. Makar, we heard many questions here about how the Serb units

Page 38630

1 were arming themselves in Bosnia-Herzegovina with the attendant parts

2 occupied in Croatia. Now, my question to you would be this: Do you

3 know -- do you have direct knowledge and awareness of the kind of weapons

4 that there were on the territory of the present Republika Srpska and the

5 territory which already in 1991 and 1992 was controlled by the Serb side

6 or, rather, the JNA, or the Yugoslav Army, whichever you prefer, and the

7 attendant paramilitary formations, and where these weapons came from to

8 that area; what the quantities of these weapons, and, generally, can you

9 tell us something about that?

10 MS. WEST: Objection.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Ms. West.

12 MS. WEST: This is the redirect of this witness. This has no

13 basis in the cross-examination at all of what we talked about. And this

14 witness indicated on the cross-examination that although these

15 individuals - he wouldn't identify them as Serb soldiers - were going by,

16 he could not identify what they were carrying. So he has no basis to

17 understand what the Serbs were using as weapons, and it's beyond the

18 scope of the cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer. But

20 before we do, Ms. Nozica, please answer.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise, but

22 this is a mistake. I did not ask about the weapons which possibly later

23 on arrived through any corridor of some kind. I asked about the weapons

24 and Mr. Makar's knowledge about weapons that arrived before the conflict,

25 and after the conflict in Croatia, weapons which arrived into

Page 38631

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what I asked him about, not about what

2 possibly arrived subsequently. And let me say straight away that I'm

3 referring to the part of the examination -- the cross-examination

4 conducted by the Prosecutor that Croatia had -- it was in Croatia's

5 interest to prevent the inflow of the weapons through that corridor. So

6 my question was: What kind of weapons, by the establish -- by the time

7 the corridor was established, did the Serb forces have in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the territory which they had occupied in Croatia?

9 That was my question, to make things clear linked to the objection raised

10 by my learned friend.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, in redirect a

12 question has to be linked to a question that was raised during the

13 cross-examination. And you said that during the cross-examination,

14 Ms. West had touched upon the issue of weapons and of the supply of those

15 weapons, and that your question is in direct line with the

16 cross-examination. Is that how we should understand it?

17 Very well. The Chamber shall confer to see whether they agree.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Right, right.

19 MS. WEST: And, Mr. President, if I can just point out one more

20 thing. My apologies, but on page 67, line 12, Ms. Nozica indicated that

21 her redirect was over, and that's when we started the questions of

22 Mr. Kovacic.

23 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, there's two points, if I may.

24 I agree that ordinarily this has been brought about, and we would

25 say for the record that we do take a consistent position that any

Page 38632

1 additional questions from any team that arises out of Prosecution

2 cross-examination should be -- any application for further

3 cross-examination should be made before any re-examination by the

4 Defence. That's the first point.

5 But, Your Honour, be that as it may, the issue is clearly

6 relevant, further questions were allowed, and I would ask that

7 Your Honours exercise your discretion so as to allow one or two

8 additional questions to be put.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Khan.

10 Mr. Kovacic asked the authorisation and we granted it, and then

11 we realised the question could not actually be raised. So Mr. Kovacic

12 did not ask a question, and then your learned colleague stood up to start

13 with a question that had not been raised. So from a proceedings point of

14 view, I'm afraid that this is finished.

15 In any case, the question may be important, but it has already

16 been touched upon at several instances. And the question has been

17 raised, and I could actually answer this question myself. And in any

18 case, this question will also be raised again during the testimony of

19 other witnesses.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I completely respect

21 your decision and won't insist upon it, but I stand by the fact that the

22 question does emanate precisely from the cross-examination conducted

23 because what was asked was whether it was in Croatia's interest to arm

24 the 2nd Corps in order to make it impossible for the Serb Army to bring

25 in supplies. I just want to say that I didn't try and do anything

Page 38633

1 outside the Rules, but I do abide by the Trial Chamber's ruling, of

2 course.

3 MR. KOVACIC: Sorry, sorry, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to correct the

5 transcript. When I said that I could answer myself, it meant that a lot

6 of witnesses testified here and said that when the JNA left the barracks

7 where they were based, they took weapons, and especially those from the

8 territory Defence. It appears in several documents. Some witnesses

9 testified on this, and some other witnesses also said that those weapons

10 had been handed out to Serbs. So that's what I was referring to, and I

11 was referring to the 30.000-odd pages of the transcript.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

13 precisely what I wanted the witness to confirm. Thank you for saying

14 that.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to ease the atmosphere

16 a bit, I hope you won't deduct those two minutes that I've spent.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it won't be deducted.

18 Mr. Petkovic.

19 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you to ask

20 you to ask the witness, to resolve the question of the corridor and the

21 influence of Croatia, for him to answer whether behind the town of Brcko,

22 along the River Sava, whether the Croatian Army was there and which

23 brigades were deployed along the River Sava, including the town of Brcko,

24 and then we've solved the problem of the control of this passage or

25 corridor.

Page 38634

1 MS. WEST: Mr. President --

2 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber conferred on the

6 request of General Petkovic, and we feel that the hearing of this witness

7 is finished. And the witness also said that he had no precise knowledge

8 as to the situation or the condition of the Croat Army on the other side

9 of the Croat border. The question could have been interesting, but the

10 witness had clearly stated, through other questions that were raised,

11 that he had no knowledge of this.

12 Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you

13 for having come upon the request of Mr. Stojic to testify in this

14 courtroom. I wish you a very safe trip back home, and I will ask the

15 usher to take you out of the courtroom.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and

17 everybody else present in the courtroom.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I have a -- from a

20 personal point of view, I have a technical question to ask you regarding

21 the objections.

22 In your country, because I believe that you were a practicing

23 lawyer in Sarajevo, in proceedings in Bosnia-Herzegovina do lawyers raise

24 objections?

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, certainly,