Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38558

 1                           Wednesday, 25 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 8     the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

12     et al.

13             Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

15             Today is Wednesday.  I would like to greet the accused who are

16     present, Defence counsel, Ms. West, Mr. Scott, and all their associates,

17     the associates of the OTP.  I would also like to welcome all the people

18     assisting us in the courtroom.

19             I shall first of all give the floor to the Registrar, who has a

20     number of IC numbers to give us.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             2D has submitted his response to Prosecution's objections to his

23     documents tendered through Witness Bandic, Ivan.  This list shall be

24     given Exhibit IC966.  And 4D has submitted his response to 2D's

25     objections to his documents tendered through witness Bandic, Ivan.  This

Page 38559

 1     list shall be given Exhibit number IC967.

 2             Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

 4             I haven't forgotten, or course, to greet the witness.  That goes

 5     without staying.

 6             I shall first of all read out an oral decision, which is somewhat

 7     lengthy.  I shall do this right now.

 8             Oral decision concerning a request filed by the Stojic Defence

 9     and relating to the testimony of Momcilo Mandic through video conference.

10             I would like to move into private session, please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38560











11 Pages 38560-38561 redacted. Private session.















Page 38562

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12                           WITNESS:  ANDJELKO MAKAR [Resumed]

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I've been told you

15     have a recording device on you.  What kind of a recording device is that?

16     Is that a telephone?  What is it, exactly?  What kind of a device do you

17     have?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean here in the courtroom?

19     Yes, I have a Dictaphone.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're not using it, are you?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it's not allowed, I will not use

22     it.  I have not used it up to now.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the courtroom, it's

24     prohibited from recording anything whatsoever, so don't use it, please.

25     But since you've told us that you haven't used it, I trust you haven't.

Page 38563

 1             Mr. Karnavas, I believe you would like to say something.  Is this

 2     something you would like to say in the presence of the witness or not?

 3     If it is not in the presence of the witness, perhaps you could take the

 4     floor after the break.  It's whichever way you like.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I have nothing to say.  I mean, I think I passed

 6     on -- I passed on a message to the Bench, which was a private message.  I

 7     don't know whether the -- whether that was conveyed.  I was going to

 8     suggest, with respect to your last comment to the witness, that he can be

 9     informed that if he wishes to have a copy of the transcript or even the

10     video, or a CD of his testimony, that could be provided to him, so

11     there's no need for the gentleman to -- that was all I wanted to say,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Each of Your Honours,

15     Counsel, good afternoon.

16             Your Honour, just briefly on the last matter, and I will not

17     mention any names so I do not think it's necessary to go into private

18     session again, in reference to the previous matter that was addressed in

19     closed session, I take it that the parties and the Chamber can then, for

20     the moment, go forward on the basis that that witness is not presently

21     scheduled.  If we can just confirm that.  That witness is not presently

22     on the court calendar, then, if I understand correctly.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the time being, the witness

24     in question is still scheduled for the 8th of April to come and testify.

25     He hasn't been stricken off.

Page 38564

 1             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's exactly why I asked,

 2     just to be absolutely clear what the implications of that might be.  So

 3     the schedule is fine.  Thank you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I wish to

 5     respond to my learned friend.  I thought that as soon as I had informed

 6     the Chamber, the witness would be taken off the list for the 8th of

 7     April, and by the 10th we will inform both the Trial Chamber and my

 8     learned friend when the witness will be able to come and testify and in

 9     what way.  So we can say for now that he has been taken off the list, and

10     we will inform both the Chamber and the OTP in writing of this.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott, for

12     having raised this issue.  Thank you, also, Ms. Nozica, for being very

13     clear about this.

14             Ms. West, I shall like to greet you once again, and I shall give

15     you the floor so that you can finish your cross-examination.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon, and good

17     afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.  Good afternoon, Mr. Makar.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:  [Continued]

19        Q.   Sir, yesterday, on page 89 of the transcript, you indicated that

20     you had had the occasion -- or you knew the Court had the occasion to

21     hear other witnesses who spoke about the same subject matter that you

22     were speaking about, and you said one of the witnesses, Mr. Majic,

23     "because of professional curiosity, I had been following this trial."

24             Mr. Makar, how long had you been following this trial?

25        A.   For about six months, Your Honours.

Page 38565

 1        Q.   And in the course of those six months, how often do you listen in

 2     or do you watch?

 3        A.   Not often, because it's not always possible.  I read what "SENSE"

 4     publishes on the internet, although it's not always correct.  So

 5     occasionally when I have time, I read those reports.

 6        Q.   And have you read from "SENSE" or followed any of the other cases

 7     at the ICTY?

 8        A.   No, Your Honours, I didn't follow any other cases.  I followed

 9     this one because I thought I might be called as a witness.

10        Q.   Mr. Makar, on Monday, page 58 of the transcript, you were asked

11     by counsel:

12             "What would have happened to the Tuzla region, which we have seen

13     is a very large area, had you not procured weapons in the way in which

14     you have described to us now during your testimony?  Would the area have

15     been defended from the Yugoslav Army and Serb paramilitaries?  Would it

16     have been successful in defending itself?"

17             Do you remember that question on Monday?

18        A.   Your Honours, I do, but now it's been formulated slightly

19     differently.  Would this region have defended itself had we not supplied

20     those weapons?  Supplied to whom?  We received weapons.  We did not

21     supply them to anyone.

22        Q.   All right, Mr. Makar.  Are you suggesting that the question I

23     read out to you is not, in your memory, the question that was asked of

24     you on Monday?

25        A.   I was quite clear.  You just said - I may have misunderstood

Page 38566

 1     you - whether this area would have defended itself had we not delivered

 2     those weapons.  To deliver means that we gave weapons to somebody else.

 3     I assume you wanted to ask whether the region would have defended itself

 4     if we had not received those weapons.  Was that your question?  That's

 5     what you said.  You may have changed your question now.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Mr. Makar, I think maybe it was just a translation mistake.  I've

 7     read from the transcript, but we're going to move on.  I'm going to ask

 8     you another question that is quite similar, and that question is:  What

 9     would have happened to --

10        A.   I can answer your question.  It's not a problem for me to answer.

11     If you are asking about the weapons supplied to us, if we had not

12     received those weapons, certainly the region would not have been able to

13     defend itself.  That's quite clear.

14        Q.   Exactly, and that's what you answered on Monday.  But my question

15     is:  What would have happened to the Tuzla region had the ABiH teamed up

16     with the Serbs and not the HVO?

17        A.   That's a hypothetical question, in my view, and in my view this

18     was not possible, it couldn't have happened.

19        Q.   Okay.  So you're right, that is a hypothetical question, and it

20     may be that it could not have happened.  However, if it did, I'd like to

21     hear what your answer is.

22        A.   Madam Prosecutor, Your Honours, as a soldier and as a human

23     being, I don't like speculating.  I could speculate now, but I don't see

24     why I should.  It's not a fact I'm being asked about.  I can only

25     speculate about this.  I can't tell you what I know about it.  I don't

Page 38567

 1     know.

 2        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had that happened, had

 3     the Croats -- had the ABiH and the Serbs teamed up against the Croats,

 4     the Croats would have been completely destroyed?

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.

 6     This is not a historical seminar.  I mean, what if Nazi Germany and

 7     Russia had continued, or the Soviet Union, had continued their alliance?

 8     What if, what if, what if?  We're not here on some seminar.  I mean,

 9     academically I find it rather interesting that we can have this

10     discourse, but this is not the purpose of a trial, and I think we need to

11     move on of the.

12             MR. KOVACIC:  If I may, Your Honour, just a small thing I would

13     like to add to my dear friend.  The question is asked and answered, in

14     addition to what my colleague said.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, first of all, the

16     answer hasn't been provided; at least the Bench does not see it as such.

17     Your question is of a technical and military nature.  This is a question

18     which you are putting to a military man, and it is a question of a

19     military nature.  This is how we should understand your question, isn't

20     it?

21             MS. WEST:  Correct.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So put your question again, and

23     the witness will answer and provide an answer of a military nature.

24             MS. WEST:

25        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that had the ABiH and the

Page 38568

 1     Serbs teamed up against the Croats, the Croats would have been completely

 2     destroyed?

 3        A.   Your Honours, the question is imprecise.

 4             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please do not

 6     manifest.  When you say something, "yes," "no," or something else, you

 7     are provoking the answer of the witness, and that is not appropriate.

 8     This is not allowed, Mr. Praljak.  So let the witness answer freely on a

 9     question that is of a military nature.  You don't have to add anything to

10     this.  When you will be in the seat of the witness, which I hope you will

11     be very soon, then we can clear up a lot of topics.  Then you will be

12     able to address this topic again.

13             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour,

14     Judge Antonetti.

15             I will, of course, be testifying very long.  I hope I will be fit

16     to do so, but my reaction is very simple.  I expected, and still expect,

17     with all due respect for the Trial Chamber and this Court, that we should

18     not engage in speculation, in idle speculation.  Had America intervened,

19     in compliance with the international laws banning aggression, we would

20     not be sitting here.  There would have been no war.  We can discuss here

21     what would have happened had Cicero done this, or had Einstein not

22     developed his theory, and so on and so forth, but what are we talking

23     about, Judge Antonetti?  What would have happened, what would have

24     happened?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please sit down,

Page 38569

 1     please sit down.

 2             I don't agree with what you have said at all, because Ms. West's

 3     question is of a military nature.  She would like to know whether, if the

 4     forces had teamed up against the third force, the third force in question

 5     would have been destroyed.  That is a question which anyone can

 6     understand, and the witness may have an answer to give us.  He may say

 7     that this is pure speculation, but in light of the forces involved, he

 8     may say something else.

 9             So please answer the question of Ms. West, irrespective of

10     Mr. Praljak's comments.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was ready to reply

12     when Mr. Praljak interrupted me, but I would like Madam Prosecutor to ask

13     whether she's asking about the territory of the 2nd Corps, could she be

14     precise, or about a wider territory?

15             MS. WEST:

16        Q.   Mr. Makar, in this courtroom I'm asking you questions, and I made

17     it quite clear when I indicated the question I asked you on Monday, which

18     is in the Tuzla region.  So in the Tuzla region, if the ABiH and the

19     Serbs had teamed up, what would have happened to the HVO --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What would have happened to the HVO?

22        A.   Madam Prosecutor, evidently you haven't followed what I said so

23     far, because if you had, the answer would be clear to you.

24             In the area of the 2nd Corps, it wasn't Croats, Serbs, and

25     Muslims who were fighting, but human beings against inhuman beings.

Page 38570

 1     There were Croats on the Serb side, and Muslims as well.  I know that for

 2     certain.  So it was not an ethnic clash in that area.  Both Croats and

 3     Muslims, who were born on the territory covered by the 2nd Corps, whose

 4     families were buried there, who had their family houses and their

 5     families there, were fighting.  So if anybody had joined up with anyone,

 6     those people would have continued fighting in the same way they had been

 7     fighting up to that point, and that's my answer.

 8        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree that --

 9             MS. TOMANOVIC:  Sorry, sorry.

10             [Interpretation] I do apologise to my learned friend, but the

11     interpretation did not reflect what the witness said.

12             The witness, on page 12, lines 24 to 25, said, in fact, that on

13     the other side, there were both Croats and Serbs and Muslims.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, it isn't stated here.

15             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, now it's all right in the

16     transcript.  If you want to confirm, please go ahead.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the

20     ABiH in the Tuzla area was for the HVO's benefit, their own benefit?

21        A.   I don't understand your question.  What do you mean, for the

22     benefit of someone?

23        Q.   Would you agree that the HVO's cooperation with the ABiH in the

24     Tuzla area was to advance one of the HVO's own goals, which is, in part,

25     in their own benefit?

Page 38571

 1        A.   No, I would not agree with that at all.  I think it's not

 2     correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  So, Mr. Makar --

 4             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours.  I

 5     didn't want to intervene before the witness replied, but this question

 6     clearly contains a presumption which was in no way confirmed either by

 7     the testimony of this witness or by any other piece of evidence brought

 8     before this Court.  The first part is a presumption, followed by a

 9     question.  Let the presumption be confirmed first, and then the question

10     can be put.  This is a textbook example of something that should not be

11     done.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

13             MS. WEST:

14        Q.   Mr. Makar, yesterday we spoke --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're wasting more time.

16             MS. WEST:

17        Q.   We spoke about the corridor where you fought, and you indicated

18     it was the end of 1992, early 1993.  And after much questioning, you

19     finally agreed that sometimes military units were able to get through,

20     although you did not know for certain whether the military units carried

21     supplies.  Do you remember those questions from yesterday?

22        A.   Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, Kimberley, last night I

23     thought about your question, and I wish to give you my reply now.

24             I didn't say what you are saying now.  You did not have a precise

25     map on which I could explain precisely what this was all about.

Page 38572

 1             Secondly, the OTP didn't even know what the term "Posavina"

 2     implies.  And, thirdly, you kept mentioning the Posavina corridor, and I

 3     kept telling you I didn't know about any such corridor.

 4             This is a trial where people's fate hangs in the balance, and

 5     every question is important.  Put your question correctly, and I will

 6     respond to it.

 7        Q.   Mr. Makar, you did not respond to my question --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are not

 9     accountable for what's going to happen to the accused.  You are a witness

10     that has been called upon to testify upon the request of the Stojic

11     Defence team and to answer questions regarding MTS and so on.  But we are

12     talking about MTS, because the Prosecutor is dealing with other topics,

13     of course.  But we are all aware that there are -- that the lives of the

14     accused is at stake here.

15             Ms. West, please proceed.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs

18     from --

19        A.   Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I would nonetheless like to respond,

20     because you --

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Witness.  You do not have a right to

22     respond here.  You are here under the duty to answer, clearly and

23     precisely, the questions that are put to you by the Prosecutor, the

24     Judge, the Defence.  You are not to comment.  It is unfortunate, perhaps,

25     and I regret to say this, because you do not have the freedom of speech

Page 38573

 1     in here.  You have it outside, but here you are an assistant to the

 2     proceedings, and your duty is just to answer the question, not to

 3     criticise them, but to answer them and, where possible, with "yes" or

 4     "no."  Do you understand this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Stephan Trechsel, my

 6     responsibility is clear here, and I abide by it, to tell the truth and

 7     only the truth about the facts and to answer questions that are clear to

 8     me.  As for questions that are not clear to me, I cannot answer them with

 9     clarity.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, please proceed.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that stopping the Serbs from

13     going through the corridor was of significance to the Republic of

14     Croatia, because if the Serbs were stopped in the corridor, then the

15     Serbs in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina would also be cut off?

16        A.   Probably that would be the case, but I can't say for sure.  I

17     don't know.

18        Q.   So let's look at P10899, which is an interview you gave in

19     February 1995 in which answered the same question.  P10899, 10899.

20        A.   01?

21        Q.   10899.

22        A.   Yes, I see it.

23        Q.   This is a February 6, 1995 interview that you gave, and it was in

24     Tuzla, and it starts -- in the beginning, it says:

25             "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia, the war

Page 38574

 1     against the Bosnian Serbs could be won.  If the Serbian corridor in the

 2     North-Eastern Bosnia is cut, the Bosnian Serbs --"

 3        A.   Just a moment, please.  I haven't found that passage, and

 4     therefore I'm unable to follow.  So just give me a moment to follow,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   The very beginning.  You can also look on the screen.  Do you see

 7     it?

 8        A.   I can't find that.  Just a moment, please.

 9        Q.   Look on the screen.

10        A.   Yes, I see it now.

11        Q.   So the very beginning, first paragraph:

12             "If the political will exists in Bosnia and Croatia, the war

13     against the Bosnian Serbs could be won.  If the Serbian corridor in the

14     north eastern Bosnia is cut, the Bosnian Serbs would lose the major part

15     of their territory.  The Serbs in Croatia would also be cut off.

16             "So said Colonel Makar to Svenska Dageldet.  He is the deputy

17     commander of the Bosnian Army 2nd Corps in the Tuzla region."

18             Sir, do you remember giving this interview?

19        A.   I don't remember, but most probably I did.  And I'm not

20     challenging that statement of mine at all.

21        Q.   All right.  So you would agree that if the corridor continued, if

22     the Serbs were allowed to continue on the corridor, they would be

23     funneling their supplies to the Serbs in western Bosnia-Herzegovina and

24     the Serbs in the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

25        A.   Probably, yes.

Page 38575

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason

 2     that the Republic of Croatia was so generous to the 2nd Corps, by

 3     providing MTS, was to ensure that the 2nd Corps was successful in

 4     stopping the Serbs?

 5        A.   I do not agree.  The prime objective, Your Honours -- well, there

 6     was enough weapons to defend the territory, and I said yesterday that

 7     from the beginning of the war, we were in a strategic defensive

 8     exclusively.  We didn't have the strength to cut anybody off, and the

 9     weapons were used just to defend ourselves.  And there was always a

10     shortage of weapons and not a surplus of weapons.

11        Q.   Let's go to P10904.  It's the map right next to you.  I think

12     everyone was given a copy of this before we started, and this was another

13     map regarding the Serbian areas in Croatia.  We had one yesterday, but

14     I think this might be a little bit of a better one to follow.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it could be put on the

16     ELMO, because this map is interesting, and it would be preferable to see

17     it from the ELMO.

18             Registrar, could you perhaps put this map on the ELMO so that

19     everyone can see it.  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Khan.

21             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, while that's being done, with your

22     leave, at page 17, line 17, the transcript is not complete.  What the

23     witness said, as far as the translation is concerned, is:  "Probably I

24     did, but I don't challenge that."  The last two words are omitted from

25     the LiveNote transcript.

Page 38576

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] While we're on the transcript,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             At page 18, line 2, the witness said -- in line 2, he said there

 5     was never enough weapons to defend the territory.  The negative "never"

 6     was not recorded, so there was never enough.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             Everyone can see the map now.

10             Ms. West, please proceed.

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, this is document P10904, and for the purposes of my

13     questions, just assume that the red area that we're looking at is a

14     Serbian-controlled area.  Excuse me, let me be more specific about that.

15     The red area within the lines of Bosnia-Herzegovina are municipalities

16     with an absolute Serb majority in 1991, but the red-orange area in

17     Croatia was controlled by the Serbs.

18             So my question to you --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Counsel.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but before we go ahead

22     with the question, so that I don't have to object and react, I think it

23     would be proper to state that this map was compiled at the end of 1992,

24     and that's what it says in the legend at the bottom, because we have

25     three or four different maps, and this is important because the situation

Page 38577

 1     was significantly changed by the end of 1992.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             Mr. Praljak.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] This portion -- this is a

 6     forgery, falsified.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you are testifying

 8     here.  Please wait and see what the witness will have to say, who has the

 9     same competences as you have, since he was a high-ranking officer, and he

10     will perhaps say exactly what you have just said.  So please let him

11     speak.

12             Ms. West, we are starting from the point of view that this map

13     dates back to the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, isn't it?

14             MS. WEST:  Yes.  For the record, Ms. Nozica said "1992."  I think

15     the legend actually says controlled Serb autonomous regions at the end of

16     1991; and then the census -- the colours in the middle are from the 1991

17     census.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, there was fighting in the region of the corridor in

19     1992 and 1993; correct?

20        A.   Yes, during 1992 and 1993.

21        Q.   Okay.  And at least in the beginning of 1992, for the purposes of

22     this question, would you agree with me that the area -- the Serbian area

23     controlled in Croatia pretty much corresponds with the orange that you

24     see in front of you?  It may not be exact, but at least by the beginning

25     of 1992 does it pretty much correspond?

Page 38578

 1        A.   Madam Prosecutor, are you referring to the areas within Croatia?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   I can't really say, because this is a very imprecise map.

 4        Q.   But you would agree with me that on the right-hand side of the

 5     map, on the east side of Bosnia-Herzegovina is Serbia; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I agree.

 7        Q.   And you see Brcko on the map; right?

 8        A.   You can see the name "Brcko," but not Brcko proper.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But you see the municipality of Brcko --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipality, that's what I meant.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer the questions.

13     Ms. West is asking you whether you can see Brcko on the map.  You say,

14     "Yes, I can see it."

15             Please proceed, Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Witness -- Mr. Makar, in 1992/1993, this area around

18     Brcko was the area of the corridor that we've spoken about; correct?

19        A.   No, we did not discuss that corridor.

20        Q.   Okay.  So then my question is:  To go from Serbia, to go west to

21     these red municipalities in Western Bosnia-Herzegovina and to this orange

22     area in Croatia, would you agree with me that a direct line is going

23     directly from the area that we see as about Bijeljina going direct --

24     directly west, a direct line west; would you agree with me?

25        A.   Yes, I agree.

Page 38579

 1             MS. WEST:  Okay.  If we can go to P10902.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this map may be not

 3     totally accurate, but it could shed some light on what is at stake here.

 4             We can see in yellow the SAO that were controlled by the Serbs in

 5     Croatia, and if you haven't studied that much, you could see that if

 6     Serbia was sending supply, material, food, and so on to the Serbs in

 7     Bosnia, it can only do it, if we look at this map, by going through the

 8     surrounding area of Brcko to try and reach the municipalities -- the

 9     Serbian municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It goes without saying,

10     it's kind of obvious, because Croatia is cut off by the SAO that we can

11     see.  It's the western SAO.  And so the Serbs can only go via Brcko.

12     And, in fact, yesterday, because everything you say is recorded, you

13     actually said yourself yesterday that people from Arkan were in the area

14     of Brcko.  You said it yourself.  So this corridor that is much talked

15     about cannot allow the Serbs to supply the Serbs of Bosnia only via this

16     area, and this is where the 2nd Corps is operational.  So do you confirm

17     or do you disagree with this, based on the map that you can see in front

18     of you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, that's

20     precisely what I said.  I confirm everything you said, and had the

21     Prosecutor explained it that way, I would have confirmed it to her

22     yesterday.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Prosecutor is

24     the Prosecutor, and I am myself.

25             But just one point of detail which Ms. West hasn't raised

Page 38580

 1     regarding this map.  We can see that there is a border of the VRS in July

 2     1993.  It's the red line that goes through this area, and it's going to

 3     go through -- go above Tuzla.  Would you agree in saying that in July

 4     1993, the VRS was kind of all around your area?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You agree.  Very well.  Well, I

 7     hope that we can see more clearly now.

 8             Ms. West, please proceed.

 9             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             P10902, if we could have that, P10902.  It's a map, another map.

11     And this is a close-up map of the area of Brcko, and on it, it shows

12     confrontation lines.

13        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you see the Sava River going through the area of

14     Brcko?

15        A.   Your Honours, yes, I see the River Sava clearly passing through

16     that area.

17        Q.   Okay.  And --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, can you please tell

19     us when this map was drawn?

20             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I believe this map is for the period

21     of -- in 1992.  I cannot be more accurate than that.

22        Q.   Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday in regard to this river, and

23     you indicated that this was the river you were trying to reach; correct?

24        A.   That's right, Your Honours.

25        Q.   All right.  And --

Page 38581

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Ms. West.

 2             I read on the map "Addition April 94."  You have said "92."

 3             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I can clarify that during the break.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 5             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   You also testified earlier today that the ABiH was in the area

 7     south of Brcko.  Now, on this map, and if you have it on e-court in front

 8     of you, perhaps you can mark -- like you did yesterday, you can mark on

 9     the map.

10        A.   [In English] Okay.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just show us, in the period that you were

12     there, which would have been the end of 1992, the beginning of 1993,

13     where the ABiH was located when you indicated they were south of Brcko?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have marked it.  It's a little

15     closer to Brcko, at the outskirts.

16        Q.   And did that position change through 1993 and into 1994, or was

17     the ABiH still in that general area?

18        A.   Your Honours, the BH Army was there in that area throughout.

19        Q.   When you say "throughout," give me the time-frame.

20        A.   Until the end of the war.  Your Honours, our positions were as I

21     have marked them in here, and they remained there until the end of the

22     war.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, the area going north, the area above the other

24     confrontation line, what forces were in that area during the period of

25     time that you were there, end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993?

Page 38582

 1        A.   In that area north and marked in red in relation to the

 2     Sava River, it was the forces of the Operative Zone of Bosanska Posavina,

 3     Orasje.

 4        Q.   And were there any Croatian forces there, forces from the HV?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I know that there were -- was the 203rd or 4th --

 6     or 203rd, 204th, 205th, and 206th Brigades of the HVO from that area.

 7     I'm not quite sure of their numbers, the Croatian Defence Council, HVO.

 8        Q.   Okay, so my --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, the question of the

10     date is very important.  This document shows two dates.  April 1994, it

11     seems that it comes from the General Staff of a British battalion of some

12     sort, and this has been published on the right-hand side, by the Ministry

13     of Defence of the UK in 1995.  So a simple mind like myself would draw

14     the simple conclusion that this map was drawn for what was happening in

15     1994.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President, and I think this witness has

17     confirmed for us that the ABiH presence went throughout the war.  So even

18     if it was 1992, he has marked on the map where the ABiH was as well.  So

19     I'll ask him that same question in regard to the HV.

20        Q.   Mr. Makar, my question had been:  Were there any Croatian forces

21     there, forces from the HV?  And your answer had to do with the HVO, so

22     let me ask you again.  Were there any Croatian forces, or from the

23     Republic of Croatia, in that area north of Brcko?

24        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I said that it was the HVO

25     forces.  As to the HV forces, I don't know about them.

Page 38583

 1             MS. WEST:  May we have an IC number for this map.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, an IC number for

 3     this map, please.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             The marked portion of P10902 shall be given Exhibit IC967.  Thank

 6     you, Your Honours.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Mr. Makar, you spoke on Monday in regard to the HVO

 9     communications with the Main Staff, and on page 32 of the transcript you

10     had said that you had pointed out that, and this is a quote:

11             "HVO brigades were subordinated to the Command of the 2nd Corps

12     in operative and combat activities, but as regards other military issues,

13     such as logistics, appointments, and other similar issues, they were

14     subordinated to the Main Staff, so that the HVO brigades and their

15     commanders, and other commanding officers, regularly communicated with

16     the Main Staff and the Defence Department in Mostar."

17             Mr. Makar, would you agree with me -- my question is that part of

18     the reason that your model in the Tuzla area worked so well was because

19     the HVO brigades had the ability to communicate with the Main Staff in

20     Mostar?

21        A.   Just a moment.  I'd like to read the question to the end.

22             Well, I don't know why that would be any special reason.  They

23     functioned in the way they functioned, just like the brigades of the

24     BH Army, and their links and communication in this part with the

25     Main Staff only contributed to it being more efficient and effective.

Page 38584

 1        Q.   And so you would agree that they had effective communication?

 2        A.   Absolutely, yes.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, you had testified on direct about different ways in

 4     which the 2nd Corps received MTS, and I just want to cover a couple of

 5     those ways.

 6             One of the ways -- or one of the places from which the MTS came,

 7     you indicated, was directly from Zagreb, and you were shown five

 8     documents, five 2D documents, on that particular subject matter, and

 9     three of them were dated in October 1992, one was in January, one was in

10     February.  So the last date of the MTS documents that you showed us

11     coming direct from Zagreb was February 1993.

12             My question, sir, is:  Would you agree with me that Croatia had a

13     vested interest in the area of the 2nd Corps, specifically the corridor

14     where you fought, so it would not be unusual that Croatia was interested

15     in sending MTS to the 2nd Corps?

16        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I can't confirm that.  All I know is that what

17     was important for me was that the MTS should arrive.  Now, whose

18     interest -- in whose interest it was, I really can't say.  Anybody who

19     supplied us with MTS, even if it were the devil himself, we would have

20     accepted it.  Now, whose interest it served, I don't want to go into

21     that.  I don't know.

22        Q.   Another group that you spoke about were seven documents, there

23     were seven documents of MTS coming from the HVO Bosanska Posavina, and

24     those documents are four from December 1992, two from January 1992, and

25     there was just one from April of 1993.  Do you remember those documents?

Page 38585

 1        A.   Well, I do apologise, but sometimes I can't even remember what I

 2     had for breakfast.  Yes, I do recall those documents, but not which

 3     specific ones.  If you were to show me, I could be able to say for sure,

 4     but, yes, I can confirm that.

 5        Q.   Okay, Mr. Makar, my question is quite different.  Would you agree

 6     with me that the HVO Bosanska Posavina also had a vested interest in

 7     helping the ABiH in that particular area from stopping the Serbs going

 8     through?

 9        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I really want to speak the truth

10     and address the facts and be of assistance, but the question is

11     imprecise.  The HVO of Bosanska Posavina, as far as I'm concerned, means

12     Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps.  Is that what you had in mind?

13        Q.   And so it was the Operative Group 1 of the 2nd Corps that was

14     supplying another operative group of the 2nd Corps; is that right?

15        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, that's precisely it.  There were

16     two names for different military formations, to be quite precise, when

17     talking about Bosanska Posavina.  We had Operative Group

18     Bosanska Posavina, which was the 107th, the 108th, HVO Brigade, and the

19     21st Brigade of the BH Army under the 2nd Corps, within the composition

20     of the 2nd Corps.  But then there was the Operative Zone of

21     Bosanska Posavina and that's what we are speaking about northwards

22     towards the Sava River.  So which of those two groups did you mean?

23        Q.   So I'm talking about the seven documents that began with 2D01075

24     in which it was MTS from the HVO Bosanska Posavina.  Those are the

25     documents to which I am referring.  Do you have a memory of those

Page 38586

 1     documents?

 2        A.   Your Honours, now it's clear.  I do remember.  They were

 3     documents about the MTS received from the HVO of Bosanska Posavina, that

 4     is to say, the upper group, not the group that came under the 2nd Corps.

 5        Q.   Right.  And there were also a set of documents that came from the

 6     HVO -- came directly from Grude; correct?

 7        A.   That's right, yes.

 8        Q.   And you showed us eight documents, and those were dated February

 9     and March 1993.  There were none after March 1993.  Do you remember

10     looking at those documents?

11        A.   Yes, I do, and I confirm that those are indeed the documents and

12     that it came directly from the Logistics Base at Grude.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned colleague,

14     but I would like to say that in the transcript, while it's still on the

15     screens, on page 28, line 13, the witness said "the Operative Zone of

16     Bosanska Posavina."  And then -- but then there was -- and there's

17     something missing there, so just for the transcript.

18             MS. WEST:

19        Q.   Mr. Makar, I apologise, but if we can just get off this train of

20     thought for a second.

21             Do you have that Posavina corridor map in front of you still?

22     That is 10902.  Do you see that on the screen, 10902?

23        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, yes, I have the map here, but

24     could we say the Posavina corridor, not the corridor of Posavina, the

25     Posavinski corridor?

Page 38587

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar, just bear with me for a moment.  Do you remember when

 2     you put the front-line -- earlier you drew a little red line showing

 3     where the ABiH was.  You indicated that was when you were there, and in

 4     1992, 1993, and you also confirmed that was into 1994.  Could you just

 5     redraw it again.

 6        A.   Your Honours, I will redraw the line.  And to avoid wasting time,

 7     let me explain.  Judge Antonetti asked whether this was -- but this is an

 8     UNPROFOR map.

 9        Q.   I asked you to draw --

10        A.   Yes, I have drawn the line.  I have drawn it.  I haven't wasted

11     any time.

12             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  May we have an IC number for that?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  We'll give it an

15     IC number, but I believe the Registrar wanted to give us a change of

16     number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.  The previous number

18     given which is IC00967 was actually supposed to be IC00968 which applies

19     to the current portion of the map that has just been marked by the

20     witness.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Makar, we've now moved on to the set of documents that are

23     coming directly -- there's no translation.  Can you hear?

24        A.   Now I can hear.

25        Q.   All right.  We were talking about a set of documents of MTS being

Page 38588

 1     set from Grude, from the HVO, and in your testimony regarding this on

 2     Monday, you had said:

 3             "Pursuant to an agreement with the HVO, all the equipment being

 4     sent to the 2nd Corps was being sent in documents by the 107th Brigade of

 5     the HVO or the 111th Brigade or the 115th Brigade, and it was the corps

 6     that disposed of all the equipment and distributed them where it was

 7     needed most."

 8             Mr. Makar, is it your testimony that the MTS was sent to the HVO

 9     brigades -- well, strike that.  Explain to us again why the MTS was sent

10     to the HVO as opposed to the BiH.

11        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, the MTS was not sent to the HVO,

12     and that's not what I said, and that's not what the documents say.  The

13     MTS was sent for the 2nd Corps, but in order to facilitate passage

14     through HVO territory the documents were marked that they were going to

15     the 107th HVO.  Whoever was transporting this MTS also had documents from

16     the 2nd Corps with the same data, and I explained why this was done.

17     I can give you an example.  For example, when I was leading a convoy, I

18     could clarify that by illustrating it with that example.

19             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

21     understand, because all of this is very complicated.

22             The documents, which show that the MTS were sent to the 107th

23     Brigade of the HVO, but you are saying that this was mentioned to

24     facilitate the transport of this equipment, but in fact this was to be

25     sent to the 2nd Corps.  Is that how we should understand what you've just

Page 38589

 1     said?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so, that's

 3     what I said.  You understood correctly.

 4             MS. WEST:

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Makar, the last document you showed us of that group was

 6     March 1993, that's right; correct?

 7        A.   I didn't show you any document, I just looked at the documents,

 8     but it probably is, yes, the one.

 9        Q.   And so far the latest MTS that we have seen to the 2nd Corps is

10     the April 8th document.  Let's -- let's turn now to your trip so we can

11     talk about more of the MTS.

12             Your first trip to Mostar was in February of -- excuse me.  Your

13     first trip that you spoke about in early 1993 was February 1993; right?

14        A.   Your Honours, that's correct, in February 1993.  Around the 20th,

15     I think I said.

16        Q.   You were there on behalf of the 2nd Corps in order to get MTS;

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes, that was the main reason.  I was always going on behalf of

19     the 2nd Corps then and on other occasions.

20        Q.   Were there any strings attached to the HVO's willingness to give

21     you MST?

22        A.   Your Honours, no, there were no strings.  The only condition was

23     we were fighting the common enemy, and we had satisfied that.

24        Q.   Was there a decision to give you MTS based on whether there was a

25     friendly relationship between the 2nd Corps and the HVO in your area?

Page 38590

 1        A.   No, it was not based on that.  It was based on the fact that the

 2     HVO units, which were part of the 2nd Corps, were in operative and combat

 3     terms subordinated to the 2nd Corps Command.  Friendship, that's

 4     something else.

 5        Q.   Please go to 2D01111, 2D01111.  This is a document that --

 6        A.   Yes, I found it.

 7        Q.   This is a document that you looked at during your direct

 8     testimony, and this is the February -- it's dated February 26, and you

 9     told us that this was the sort of summary report you wrote about the

10     meeting.

11             Now, I'd like to move to the second page of English, but

12     nonetheless it's number 2 in "Logistics."  Do you see that part, number 2

13     under "Logistics"?

14        A.   I don't understand.  Why should I look at it in English?

15        Q.   The B/C/S number 2, "Logistics"?

16        A.   Yes, I've found it.

17        Q.   Okay.  And it says:

18             "After familiarising with the situation in 2nd Corps, where all

19     of the ABiH and HVO units are under the joint command and where no

20     conflicts appeared so far, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna will

21     enable undisturbed passage of all MTS logistics to the 2nd Corps."

22             Mr. Makar, my question is:  Would you agree with me that Stojic,

23     Rajic, Petkovic, Praljak, all the people you met with, their willingness

24     to secure passage was actually linked to the relationship between the BiH

25     and the HVO?

Page 38591

 1        A.   Your Honours, I agree that it was based on the military

 2     relationship we had, where the brigades of the HVO were part -- or,

 3     rather, subordinated, in terms of combat and operations, to the 2nd Corps

 4     Command.

 5        Q.   So would you agree with me that what this actually means is so

 6     far there's been no conflicts in the area the 2nd Corps covers between

 7     the BiH and the HVO, and so as a result Herceg-Bosna will enable

 8     undisturbed passage of MTS?  Would you agree with me that that's what

 9     that means?

10        A.   No, Your Honours, I would not agree with that.  That was not the

11     main reason.  The main reason was that the brigades of the HVO were part

12     of the 2nd Corps; they were subordinated in combat terms; and they were

13     fighting the common enemy.  So the reason was military.

14        Q.   Okay.  So let's go to part B under the same "Logistics," and this

15     is what you continued to write.  You wrote:

16             "Undisturbed passage of means is secured provided there are no

17     new conflicts in Central Bosnia and that the means are to be transferred

18     directly to the 2nd Corps, and not to Central Bosnia or Visoko ..."

19             So, sir, would you agree with me that Stojic, Praljak, Petkovic,

20     and Rajic are attaching strings to the MTS that's going to the 2nd Corps;

21     that as long as there are no new conflicts in Central Bosnia, then the

22     MTS will be transferred to the 2nd Corps?

23        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I would not agree, because it's

24     the first word "undisturbed passage" is secured and so on.  If there are

25     conflicts, then there will be problems in passage.  Passage will be

Page 38592

 1     undisturbed if there are no problems.

 2        Q.   All right.  And this goes on to say that the means are to be

 3     transferred directly to the 2nd Corps and not to Central Bosnia or

 4     Visoko.  Doesn't -- Mr. Makar, wasn't -- did you understand that their

 5     concern was -- the HVO's concern was that these -- this MTS could perhaps

 6     be turned around and used against them?

 7        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, as I personally compiled this,

 8     I can say that's not correct.  That was our condition.  We wanted the MTS

 9     to be delivered directly to us in the 2nd Corps.  And it could only be

10     sent to Central Bosnia or to Visoko, but we insisted it be sent to the

11     2nd Corps, because we were the ones that needed the MTS most.

12        Q.   So let's go ahead a few months in April, so this is still a

13     period of time where you're making these trips to Mostar, and look at

14     2D01149.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,

16     Witness.  Since you are the one who drafted this document, I'm sure

17     you'll be able to shed some light on it.

18             I would like you to look at paragraph F, please, under item 1,

19     where it says that the conflicts in Central Bosnia can be settled

20     peacefully through meetings with the HVO.  I would like to know what

21     "SSVK" stands for.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, "SSVK" means the Staff

23     of the Supreme Command, "S" standing for the "sh" with the diacritic.

24     Shall I continue?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, the Staff of

Page 38593

 1     the Supreme Command Staff of the ABiH?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 4             MS. WEST:  2D01149, 2D01149.  This is a document dated April

 5     16th --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

 7             MS. WEST:  -- in Herceg-Bosna.  Excuse me, not in Herceg-Bosna.

 8     It's dated April 16th.

 9        Q.   Do you have that in front of you?  And this is a letter from

10     Hazim Sadic, who was the commandment of the 2nd Corps.

11             Mr. Makar, you testified yesterday on page 79 of the transcript

12     that the situation in Herceg-Bosna in the month of April was tense.  You

13     agreed that was true.  However, you said you were not aware of the

14     ultimatum at the beginning of April.  But were you aware of the events in

15     Ahmici on April 16th?

16        A.   I learned about the events in Ahmici -- well, I don't know the

17     exact date, but I learned about that subsequently and indirectly.

18        Q.   All right.  And this letter is dated the same date as Ahmici, and

19     it says:

20             "Based on the analysis of the situation at the area of

21     North-Eastern Bosnia, region of Tuzla because of constant activity by the

22     7th Corps of Serbian-Montenegro aggressor, we are announcing that because

23     of the events in Herzegovina as well as Central Bosnia, complete

24     situation at the zone of the responsibility of the 2nd Corps is growing

25     more difficult."

Page 38594

 1             And he goes on to talk about what he hoped the BH government

 2     could do.  But the last paragraph is where I would like to focus, and it

 3     says:

 4             "With objective to conduct armed combat at the 2nd Corps

 5     responsibility zone, we request that convoys currently at Grude are to be

 6     immediately secured a passage (under armed escort) towards the 2nd Corps

 7     responsibility zone, and they are going to receive the convoy with their

 8     armed escort."

 9             Sir, would you agree with me that at least by April 16th, convoys

10     to the 2nd Corps from Grude had been stalled?

11        A.   I didn't understand your question.  Were the convoys stopped, was

12     that your question?

13        Q.   Sir, my question is:  Mr. Sadic wrote this, and do you agree that

14     on April 16th he is asking for the release of convoys at Grude?

15        A.   No, I don't agree.  That was not the idea.  This was a convoy

16     which arrived normally, but because of the situation the commander asked

17     that a special escort be provided so that the convoy could reach the area

18     of the 2nd Corps more securely, and it has to do with what you misread,

19     because of the constant activity of 7 Corps.  You said "the 7th Corps,"

20     but actually it's 7 Corps of the Serb Army were attacking the 2nd Corps,

21     which is why it was necessary for the convoy to have an armed escort in

22     order to arrive safely.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's move forward a few days, three days forward, and

24     go to P10897 --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a very short question,

Page 38595

 1     Witness.

 2             I'm trying to understand how the civilian authorities intervened

 3     in military operations.  It's sometimes very difficult to understand, and

 4     before me here I have a document which is probably a telex, because

 5     there's no signature on it.  This document says that it is strictly

 6     confidential, classified, urgent, a very urgent document, which comes

 7     from the 2nd Corps.  As far as I know, the 2nd Corps is a military body,

 8     and all of a sudden here, in this document of a military nature, we see

 9     the names of three civilian representatives; the president of the region

10     of Tuzla, Izet Hadzic, the president of the HVO, Ivo Andric, the Croatian

11     Community of Soli, and the county of Tuzla, President Selim Beslagic.

12     How can you explain this, that the civilian authorities are mentioned and

13     seem to be playing a part in this document, which comes from a military

14     body?

15             That said, the document mentions the fact that the conflict

16     should be stopped, that a joint command should be set up, and so on and

17     so forth.  This seems to be a document of a purely military nature, and

18     the civilian authorities are mentioned in this document.

19             Do you have an answer to give me?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have a response.

21     This document is linked with a document we have just discussed, 111111 --

22     01111.  That's the statement or, rather, the letter compiled based on my

23     visit to Mostar and sent both to the Presidency and the Supreme Command

24     Staff and to Mr. Rasim Delic.  The civilian authorities in the Tuzla

25     district, in the 2nd Corps area, was a district.  There were municipal

Page 38596

 1     authorities, there were civilian police organs, there were

 2     fully-established civilian authorities there, as far as was possible in

 3     wartime conditions.  We closely cooperated with the organs of the

 4     district and the municipality.  Competencies were strictly separated.

 5     The Command of the 2nd Corps was responsible for armed combat, whereas

 6     the organs of the civilian authorities, whether district or municipal,

 7     were responsible for providing the material and other conditions, raising

 8     manpower levels and so on, for the conduct of the armed struggle.

 9             In every situation where this was necessary, the Presidency of

10     the district, the mayors of the municipalities and the presidents of the

11     then crisis staffs would meet, together with the representatives of both

12     religious communities of both religions, and with the narrower part of

13     the 2nd Corps Command.  At these meetings, we would be informed of the

14     political views of the civilian authorities relating to the activities of

15     the 2nd Corps.

16             So let me go back a little.  The civilian authorities were fully

17     informed of all the conclusions reached at the meeting in Mostar,

18     document 011111.  Because of the events which were developing fast after

19     such meetings, this sort of document was drawn up.  It is, I would call

20     it, a civilian/military document.  As a corps, the corps commander, for

21     example, could not write to the Presidency of the Republic, but it could

22     be done through the president of the district or the region of Tuzla.

23     That's why both the district president and the commander of the 2nd Corps

24     signed the document.

25             As the situation in our area was such that both the HVO -- that

Page 38597

 1     the HVO was also involved in the same struggle, the signature of the

 2     president of the HVO, Ivo Andric, is there too, as well as the signature

 3     of Selim Beslagic, who was one of the most prominent representatives of

 4     Tuzla municipality, which was the strongest municipality.  This explains

 5     why the document is the way it is.  And you can see that this document,

 6     if you look at the bottom, it says that Commander Arif Pasalic is

 7     certifying the correctness of the copy, and you can see that this is the

 8     Command of the 4th Corps in Mostar.  It follows logically from this that

 9     the document which arrived in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

10     also received by the chief of the Main Staff of the Army of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, who then forwarded it, through the commander of the

12     4th Corps, to Mostar.

13             So that's my explanation.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for your

15     answer.

16             Ms. West.

17             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, if we can go to P10897, P10897.  This is a document dated

19     April 19th, just three days later.

20        A.   Could you please repeat this.  10 --

21        Q.   10897.  This is a document dated April 19th --

22        A.   Yes, yes, I found it now.

23        Q.   It's from General Petkovic.  It looks like it's to the 115th

24     Brigade in Tuzla.  And the 115th Brigade was one of the brigades in the

25     ABiH; correct?  In the 2nd Corps, excuse me.

Page 38598

 1        A.   Your Honours, this is a document issued by the Main Staff of the

 2     HVO, sent to the 115th HVO Brigade directly.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, is the 115th HVO Brigade one of the brigades that was

 4     under the command -- the operative command of the 2nd Corps?

 5        A.   Yes, it was under the operative command of the 2nd Corps, and in

 6     all combat activities it carried out orders coming from the 2nd Corps.

 7     So this order I assume did arrive, but the brigade never implemented it,

 8     it never obeyed this order.

 9        Q.   Good enough.  Let's go through the order itself.  It says:

10             "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards

11     Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia, I here by order:

12             1.  Immediately inform the 2nd Corps Command about the behavior

13     of the ABiH;

14             2.  Inform them that you, "the 115th, "are abandoning positions

15     towards Serbs;

16             3.  Organise the defence of the Croatian people;

17             4.  Pass this order to the 108th;

18             5.  Trust me, I have issued this order heavy-heartedly, but in

19     the name of Croats from Central Bosnia, I had no other choice."

20             Sir, my first question to you regards the first sentence, it

21     says:  "As the ABiH forces are abandoning all the positions towards the

22     Serbs and are being sent to Central Bosnia."  Did that happen?

23        A.   I don't know whether this happened, but it certainly didn't

24     happen in the 2nd Corps, nor did the BH Army abandon the positions

25     towards the Serbs - I'm referring to the brigades of the 2nd Corps - nor

Page 38599

 1     did any HVO units abandon their positions towards the Serbs, but I am

 2     referring only to the 2nd Corps now.

 3        Q.   And would you agree with me that it appears the reason

 4     General Petkovic sent this order for the 115th to abandon was because he

 5     wanted them to come back to Central Bosnia, and, under number 3, organise

 6     the defence of the Croatian people?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I cannot know what General Petkovic thought or

 8     meant, either then or now.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, we all have

10     Mr. Petkovic's order before us.  If we read this order, we see that

11     General Petkovic seemingly had that the ABiH abandon their positions

12     towards the Serbs.  According to this information, the ABiH is going

13     towards Central Bosnia.  Perhaps an offensive is being prepared in

14     Central Bosnia.  He reacts, therefore, because he prepares this order,

15     and there are five items contained in this order.  He first of all asks

16     the 115 Brigade to advise the Command of the 2nd Corps about the

17     behaviour of the ABiH, to inform it about the fact that the positions

18     have been abandoned, to organise a defence of the Croatian people, to

19     pass this on to the 108th Brigade.  Therefore, there is a military

20     situation that ensues from this document.

21             Was General Petkovic misinformed, or is what he is saying right;

22     in other words, the ABiH is dropping its position towards the Serbs and

23     moving into Central Bosnia, and of course this does have an impact on the

24     HVO that must keep the Serbs within the lines, but that must also protect

25     the Croats?

Page 38600

 1             Ms. West is putting forward another idea, as far as this document

 2     is concerned.  What can you tell us?  From what I understood, you said

 3     you didn't know anything about it.  You know nothing about it, if that is

 4     the case, but I found that a little bit surprising, because the 115th

 5     Brigade was to inform the Command of the 2nd Corps.  That said, it must

 6     have been a matter of some urgency, because you can see, as I can, that

 7     this telegram was sent at 2340.  The time is important.

 8             Sir, before we have the break --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, and what is the

10     question?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my question is as follows:

12     The military situation described in this document is the military

13     situation which you experienced, i.e., the fact that the ABiH abandon

14     their positions towards the Serbs so that the ABiH could go to

15     Central Bosnia, and then General Petkovic asks for the Command of the

16     2nd Corps to be informed, but also to maintain their positions vis-a-vis

17     the Serbs, because if they have nothing before them, then they can just

18     advance and attack?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I said

20     clearly, and I answered the question clearly, in the 2nd Corps not a

21     single unit of the BH Army, not a brigade of the 13th, not a single

22     brigade of the HVO, abandoned their positions facing the Serbs.  Had just

23     one brigade done that, or part of a brigade done that, we might not be

24     sitting here today, or at least I certainly wouldn't.  It would have been

25     a catastrophe.  We couldn't set aside a single unit, and there was no

Page 38601

 1     point in discussing anything like that.  So I can confirm, once again,

 2     let me state, that in the 2nd Corps not a single BH Army unit, not a

 3     single HVO unit, left their positions or went towards Central Bosnia or

 4     anywhere else from the 2nd Corps zone, at all.  And Zvonko Juric was a

 5     very serious and intelligent person, and he probably assessed that there

 6     was no point in discussing the matter further.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So should we draw

 8     the conclusion that General Petkovic was misinformed, or do you think

 9     that there could be another reason for that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, if

11     that refers to what I was saying about the 2nd Corps, then

12     General Petkovic was completely misinformed.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             We're going to have a break.

15             And, Ms. West, I think that you have about 34 or 32 minutes left.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.

19             MS. WEST:

20        Q.   Mr. Makar, the last trip that you took to Mostar was May 1st and

21     2nd; correct?

22        A.   I think it was the 30th of April and 1st and 2nd of May.  But,

23     yes, roughly, that's right.

24        Q.   Okay.  And you were able to negotiate MTS and bring it back to

25     the 2nd Corps during that trip; correct?

Page 38602

 1        A.   Madam Prosecutor, it wasn't exactly like that.  It was very

 2     complicated, but I can confirm that I did bring all the MTS or

 3     practically all the MTS over, yes.

 4        Q.   You agree with me that the last MTS documents upon which you have

 5     testified, the last date is May 2nd?

 6        A.   I agree they were documents about procurement or, rather, what I

 7     did and where I was and how long I was there, because later on other

 8     people went.  I didn't go anymore.

 9        Q.   Are you aware of events in Mostar in the month of May of 1993?

10        A.   In what sense do you mean am I aware of events?  Which events?

11        Q.   Were you aware that beginning on May 9th, there was a roundup of

12     Muslims living in Mostar who were put in detention?

13        A.   I assume you mean whether I knew that at that time, whether I was

14     aware of that at that time, and the answer is, no, I learnt about that

15     later on.

16        Q.   All right.  On Monday of this week, you testified -- well, you

17     gave some testimony, and you were talking about the enemy and what you

18     were protecting.  And on page 74 of the transcript, you said, I quote:

19             "As far as we were concerned, Chetniks were the ones who attacked

20     us.  Those who attacked us and those did not want to live in community as

21     we had been living up until then, they wished to destroy the values of

22     the life -- the kind of life up until then."

23             Do you remember that testimony?

24        A.   I do remember, but you didn't quote that correctly.  In the

25     second sentence, it says "not want to live," so people who no longer

Page 38603

 1     wished to live as they had been living until then, so people who wanted

 2     something else, and that's what I said, the Greater Serbia Project.

 3        Q.   So, is it your testimony, sir, that as a Croat, BH Army soldier

 4     living in Tuzla, you were fighting to defend your way of life?

 5        A.   Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I always said that I went to the

 6     war to defend -- to defend myself, to save my own life, my family's

 7     lives, the friends, and people I'd lived with until then and who also

 8     wanted to defend the kind of life we were living up until then.  We gave

 9     no thought to what kind of state we would have afterwards, because it was

10     a matter of survival.

11        Q.   And Tuzla was an ethnically-mixed community; correct?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   And so part of your fighting, you were fighting for the right to

14     live peacefully among Croats, Serbs, and Muslims; correct?

15        A.   No, that's not right.  We fought so that the citizens could live

16     peacefully and live a normal life, as they had been living up until then.

17     And since that was not the case, we were forced to fight for that kind of

18     life using weapons.

19        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's move forward one month after your last visit to

20     Mostar, which was the beginning of May.  We're going to move forward to

21     June 15th, and this is 2D00851, 2D00851.  The English is in the front,

22     the B/C/S is right behind it.  This is a June 15th --

23        A.   Yes, I have found it.

24        Q.   -- 1993.  It's minutes of an HVO meeting with Mr. Prlic and

25     Mr. Stojic in attendance, and it's -- it talks -- in it, it talks about

Page 38604

 1     Croats living outside Herceg-Bosna in a place like Tuzla, so let's read

 2     part of it and then we'll talk about it.

 3             Item 1:

 4             "The head of the Defence Department of the HVO, Croatian Defence

 5     Council of the HZ-HB, Mr. Bruno Stojic, informed the session of the

 6     military and security situation in the territory of the HZ-HB.  In his

 7     report, he said that the Muslim forces were carrying out coordinated

 8     attacks in Central Bosnia and northern Herzegovina to seize areas which,

 9     according to the Vance-Owen Plan, were intended to be included in the

10     areas with a majority Croatian authority, that's provinces 8 and 10, to

11     isolate, terrorise, and destroy everything that is Croatian.  In the area

12     of Travnik, in the municipalities of Kiseljak, Vitez, and Vares, and in

13     the municipalities of Konjic and Jablanica, as well as in locations where

14     the Croats were in the minority population, for example, in Sarajevo,

15     Zenica, Tuzla, the survival of every single Croat and the Croatian people

16     as a whole is seriously threatened.

17             "The Defence Department of the HVO HZ-HB and the Main Staff are

18     doing everything to protect the people and are taking effective military

19     actions to defend and protect the areas under attack.  The difficulties

20     standing in the way of a complete protection of the Croatian people and

21     the area are as follows:  a shortage of MTS, problems in carrying out the

22     mobilisation in certain municipalities (Ljubuski and Puselje),

23     ineffectiveness of the military courts, and a lack of political

24     decision-making by the Presidency of the HZ-HB which could decide to

25     withdraw all military units and the Croats living there from areas

Page 38605

 1     outside the outlined Croatian provinces, meet with the HVO of the

 2     municipalities of Ljubuski and Puselje, and immediately organise the work

 3     of the Military Court, and undertake additional efforts to find materiel

 4     and technical equipment."

 5             Mr. Makar, just go to page 3, and I'm just going to read one more

 6     thing.  Page 3 of the B/C/S, it's page 3 of the English, and it's

 7     number 3 under conclusions, and it says:

 8             "A proposal was made to the Presidency of the HZ-HB and the HVO

 9     supreme commander to adopt a decision to pull out all military units from

10     areas outside the designated Croatian provinces, together with the

11     Croatian inhabitants living there; to this effect, demand cooperation and

12     assistance from UNPROFOR and UNHCR."

13             Mr. Makar, you're a Croat who's lived in Tuzla for a long time.

14     You would not have left Tuzla if you had been ordered to leave by the

15     HVO, would you?

16        A.   The HVO couldn't have ordered me to do that.  Only the Main Staff

17     of the Supreme Command of the BH Army could have issued orders to me.

18        Q.   I understand you're saying they couldn't do it.  Had they done

19     it, had they nonetheless ordered you to do that, would you have left?

20        A.   Well, once again, that's a hypothetical question.  I wouldn't

21     have left even if I had received orders from goodness knows whom, because

22     my children were there, my family was there, my friends were there, so if

23     we needed to die, we would all die together.  So it's a hypothetical

24     question.  That's the best I can do with that answer.

25        Q.   Back -- we'll go back to the document, and this is page 1 of the

Page 38606

 1     English, page 1 of the B/C/S, and at the very bottom of the English.  It

 2     says:

 3             "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposal set out by

 4     Bruno Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army, and

 5     it's supreme commander, Izetbegovic, a war criminal, because of the

 6     crimes committed by the BH Army."

 7             Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the view of the HVO in

 8     this case Mr. Stojic, towards the BH Army appears to be quite different

 9     then what you described in your direct testimony?

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, it's

11     Kvesic here.  Your Honours, I think the witness understood that, too, but

12     as I'm on my feet, it's not Mr. Stojic's position, as it says in the

13     transcript, but it is Mr. Kvesic, and I think that the witness understood

14     it that way too.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I had understood

16     the same thing.

17             Ms. West, indeed it seems that it's Mr. Kvesic that said that.

18             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'll read this one more time, and it is

19     either way, whether it's Stojic or Kvesic:

20             "In his remarks, Mr. Kvesic upheld the proposals --"

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. West, Kvesic, not Kevic, Kvesic.  I think

22     you misspoke last time, and that's why this passage was perhaps not

23     recognised, because it's correct in the transcript.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

25        Q.   "In his remarks, Mr. K-v-e-s-i-c upheld the proposals set out by

Page 38607

 1     Mr. B. Stojic and proposed that the BH Army be declared an enemy army and

 2     its supreme commander, Mr. Izetbegovic, a war criminal because of the

 3     crimes committed by the army."

 4             And so, Mr. Makar, my question to you:  Would you agree with me

 5     that the view of the HVO towards the BH Army here appears to be quite

 6     different than what you described it to be in your direct testimony?

 7        A.   Madam Prosecutor, it seems that I can't agree with you on many

 8     counts.  I can't explain and interpret HVO positions.  All I can say is

 9     what I know.  And what I saw is in document 0001, those are the positions

10     I heard from the gentleman when I was there.  Now, I can't comment on

11     this document, because I don't know.

12        Q.   Your testimony, I believe this was yesterday, it's page 89, you

13     indicated that, and I'll quote:

14             "My standpoint in general is the following:  There was no

15     conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO on the

16     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

17             In regard to this last section that you -- that we just read,

18     would it be fair to say that the HVO disagreed with the assessment that

19     you gave here in court?

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. West, I'm sorry to intervene.  I think your

21     question is not quite correct.  You say "the HVO," but we have two

22     persons who spoke here.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So I think it would be correct to say "the

25     opinion of these two persons."

Page 38608

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Makar, my question is that:  Would you agree with me here

 3     that these two people that we spoke of have disagreed with -- or at least

 4     back then disagreed with the assessment that you gave this Trial Chamber

 5     that there was no conflict between the BH Army and the HVO?

 6        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I can agree with you in saying that what it

 7     says here is what it says.  If you ask me, Is that what the papers say,

 8     then I would say, yes, that's what the paper say, but I don't know that

 9     that was the case.  Have I made myself clear?

10        Q.   No.  Because my question is, isn't that -- what's on this paper,

11     isn't that quite different than the testimony that you have to the

12     Trial Chamber?

13        A.   Oh, that, yes.  That's right.

14             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

15                           [Questioned by the Court]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             Witness, I have a follow-up question regarding this document,

18     which is important in one aspect.  It's the 15th of June, 1993, the 42nd

19     session of the Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community of

20     Herceg-Bosna, held in Mostar.  It's 10.00 a.m.  The following

21     participants:  Mr. Prlic, who is not in this courtroom; Mr. Zubak;

22     Mr. Buntic; and so on and so forth; and Mr. Stojic, who is in this

23     courtroom today.  And at the end of page 1, we have something that seems

24     to me as being important and should be assessed as such.  Mr. Kvesic

25     upholds the proposals set out by Mr. Stojic, but that's not what's really

Page 38609

 1     important.  What is important is what follows.  The one or both suggest

 2     that the BH Army be declared an enemy army.

 3             From your point of view, does that mean that before the 15th of

 4     June, 1993, the BH Army, according to the HVO, was not an enemy army?

 5        A.   I don't think the BH Army was an enemy army, as you said,

 6     Your Honour Judge Antonetti.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm asking you this

 8     question because you are the first witness who, according to you, has

 9     three qualities; you are a Croat, you are married to a Serb, and at the

10     time you were part of the ABiH Army.  And you are the only witness to

11     have those three features, so you can shed some light on those complex

12     issues, I believe.  And from what you said until now, but I may be wrong,

13     and in which case please correct me - if I'm mistaken, I have to have

14     some more light - so I understood that according to you, as part of the

15     2nd Corps, your main objective was to protect citizens, you stressed on

16     this word "citizens," without talking about ethnic groups, such as Serbs

17     or Croats or Muslims, and you were facing the Serbs, or the Serb forces,

18     or Chetniks, I'm not going -- or Chetniks, I'm not going to go into those

19     details.  But during this entire period, you actually fought against the

20     Serbs, but the 2nd Corps was actually not fighting against the HVO; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   You're quite right, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             Ms. Nozica, I'm sure that you have some redirect questions.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you, I do

Page 38610

 1     have additional questions, and I have a new document, too, which I will

 2     hand 'round in the binders.

 3             And while the usher is doing that, I'll dwell on the document

 4     we've just been looking at.

 5                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

 6        Q.   Mr. Makar, we have seen here, in the document shown to you by the

 7     Prosecutor, that there is a proposal, and it says Mr. Kvesic supported

 8     the proposals of Mr. Bruno Stojic.  And he proposes that the BH Army

 9     should be proclaimed an enemy army and that supreme commander, because of

10     the crimes that had been committed, should be proclaimed a war criminal.

11             Now, would you look at page 3, which is the last page, and it is

12     page 3 in the English as well, and look at the conclusions there with

13     respect to this.

14             Have you found the document?

15        A.   Just tell me the number of the document again, because I closed

16     the file.

17        Q.   Yes, I should have done that for the transcript.  It is 2D00851.

18     So let's look at the conclusions now.

19        A.   Yes, I've found them.

20        Q.   I'm going to give you some time to look through them, but can you

21     find anywhere in the conclusions that the HVO made that particular

22     conclusion whereby the BH Army should be declared an enemy army and that

23     Alija Izetbegovic be declared a war criminal?

24        A.   I'd have to read through this, to take a moment to read through

25     the conclusions, so if you'd like to wait.

Page 38611

 1        Q.   Yes, I will give you time to read through it.

 2        A.   Your Honours and Ms. Nozica, just as I answered the Prosecutor, I

 3     could confirm here to you, too, that that's not what it says here.  It

 4     doesn't say that here.

 5        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, Mr. Makar, throughout your testimony you

 6     spoke about how the 2nd Corps did not have any conflicts or wasn't in

 7     conflict with the HVO.  Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you

 8     know whether the other BH Army corps, up until this time, had any

 9     conflicts with the HVO perhaps?

10        A.   Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, I've already said that it is my general

11     view and position that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we should not use the word

12     "conflict" and talk about the conflict between the HVO and BH Army,

13     because, based on my own personal analyses, it was not a conflict either

14     on the whole of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or its majority

15     part, or by virtue of the number of included people.  There was not a

16     majority on any side, and judging by the forces involved, the same would

17     apply.  And I agree and I can confirm this, that in other corps there

18     were no clashes or conflicts up until the time you mentioned, as far as I

19     know.  You rather took me aback with that question, but as far as I know,

20     I don't think so.

21        Q.   All right.  Now I'd like to go back to when those conflicts

22     started and the HVO position with respect to the conflicts, and I'd like

23     to look at 2D01111.

24        A.   Yes, I remember the document.

25        Q.   You'll find it in my pink binder, so we can have a look at it.

Page 38612

 1             I'm just going to state what you said during both the

 2     examination-in-chief and cross-examination, that this is a report written

 3     by you after your first visit to Mostar, and it says here after the talks

 4     were held, the team conveyed the results of the talks to the central part

 5     of the 2nd Corps Command and to the Municipal Presidency of the Tuzla

 6     district:

 7             "Based on all the aforementioned, we submit the following

 8     report."

 9             Now, first, Mr. Makar, these points, 1 to 1(g) and "Logistics"

10     are these positions that you had voiced at these meetings with

11     Mr. Stojic, Rajic, Praljak, and Petkovic?

12        A.   Your Honours, Ms. Nozica, these are precisely the positions and

13     stands that I conveyed exactly related to the Presidency and corps

14     command and so on.

15        Q.   So we're talking about February 1993.  And in view of the series

16     of questions that you were asked during the cross-examination, I should

17     like to ask you to go through all the conclusions.  We'll go through that

18     together to see what the gentlemen from the HVO who were present propose.

19             Under A, it says representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are

20     completely ready to consistently implement all items of the agreement

21     between the Presidency president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and the

22     president of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman.

23             Just wait a moment, please, Mr. Makar.

24             Mr. Makar, is that what you were told at those meetings?

25        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, that that is precisely what I was told.

Page 38613

 1        Q.   Now, under B it says Mr. Mate Boban offered the Presidency

 2     president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the text of the joint statement which

 3     would remove any misunderstandings between the Croatian and Muslim nation

 4     in BiH?

 5        A.   Yes, I can confirm that that is so.

 6        Q.   C, representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are offering the

 7     formation of a joint command of the BiH armed forces and have a proposal

 8     from their representatives for that.  Is that what you were told at the

 9     meeting as well?

10        A.   Your Honours, I can confirm that that was the proposal put

11     forward at the meeting by HVO representatives.

12        Q.   Under C, the -- I'm sorry, D, different standpoints of the

13     Presidency president of the Republic of BiH, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and

14     in brackets it says "solving the problems in BiH by negotiation," and the

15     chief of the Supreme Command Staff, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, and in brackets

16     it says "not to accept the results of the negotiations but to fight to

17     the end," are causing dissatisfaction in the HVO of Herceg-Bosna, because

18     they suggest that the army is taking upon itself the right to make

19     decisions about political issues.

20             Now, Mr. Makar, were you told that at that same meeting?

21        A.   Your Honours, I can confirm that that is what was said.

22        Q.   Now we come to E.  The grouping of strong BiH forces in

23     Central Bosnia turned against the HVO units is considered a threat and

24     potential danger from a new conflict, and many soldiers were killed and

25     wounded in the conflict so far.  All the forces should be turned against

Page 38614

 1     the common enemy on the focal axes, and for that purpose, "we request the

 2     deployment of three BH Army brigades and one HVO brigade for the

 3     operation to deblock Sarajevo."

 4             Is that what you were told as well?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what we were told, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   In connection with these conflicts we spoke about, under F it

 7     says the conflicts in Central Bosnia have to be resolved peacefully by

 8     means of agreements and meetings between representatives of the HVO and

 9     the Staff of the Supreme Command, as well as by an agreement at the level

10     of the president of the Republic and Mr. Mate Boban.  Was this also said

11     to you, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I can confirm that that's what was said.

13        Q.   It says the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

14     the Supreme Command Staff have to be relocated outside Sarajevo.

15     Unfortunately, we don't have the rest of the text.  This is a Prosecution

16     document, but do you remember this being said?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that the relocation of these organs outside

18     Sarajevo was mentioned.

19        Q.   Mr. Makar, you, yourself, said that you compiled this document

20     personally and it was delivered to the president of the Presidency,

21     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; to the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command,

22     Mr. Sefer Halilovic; to the Command of the Armed Forces Staff; to the

23     commander, Mr. Rasim Delic; and to Mr. Bruno Stojic, the president of the

24     HVO.  And during your examination-in-chief, you said, and it says so here

25     in the first sentence, that you informed the 2nd Corps Command and the

Page 38615

 1     Presidency of the Tuzla municipality about this.

 2             Do you know whether you ever received a response to this letter

 3     from any of these addressees?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I only wish to say that it was not I who conveyed

 5     the results of these talks, but at the meeting there was a whole team.  I

 6     was there as the Chief of Staff.  The commander of Operative Group 2,

 7     Osman Puskar was there, and the commander of the 107th HVO Brigade,

 8     Ivan Mijacevic was there too.  And in response to this question by Madam

 9     Nozica, I don't remember that anything about this was sent as a

10     follow-up.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Makar.

12             Mr. Makar, there are certain points I'd like to clarify arising

13     from your cross-examination.

14             On several occasions, and I'm talking about the end of 1992 and

15     early 1993, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about operations being

16     conducted in the far north of your territory, near this corridor that

17     there was so much mention of, and if I understood you correctly, you said

18     that the Operative Zone of Bosnia and Posavina gave military support to

19     the 2nd Corps.  I'm afraid that this was not fully understood in this

20     courtroom, so could you tell the Court whether you had sufficient MTS for

21     you to provide support to the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, or was it

22     the other way around?

23        A.   Your Honours, Madam Nozica, this is the same problem that arose

24     during my cross-examination by the esteemed Prosecutor, Madam West.  To

25     clarify things to everybody, it might be best if the map were brought up

Page 38616

 1     again so that I could explain what the Operative Group of

 2     Bosanska Posavina was and Operative Group 1 of Bosanska Posavina.

 3        Q.   Well, Mr. Makar, I think you have explained what the operative

 4     group was, and you can repeat now what it was, if you like, but which map

 5     would you like to see?  Is it this one [indicates]?

 6        A.   Yes, precisely this one.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we then have the map.  Could the

 8     usher show this map, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question,

11     based on the map.  Maybe it's better if I put the question first.

12             General, a while ago Ms. Nozica mentioned the document which

13     talks about the deblocking of Sarajevo.  I listened to what she said and

14     I listened to you answer.  And then whilst I was listening to you, I

15     looked at the map, and the positions of the 2nd Corps are close to

16     Sarajevo.  Between Tuzla and Sarajevo, there might be 100 kilometres or

17     so.  But on the map you have before you, where we see the Serb lines in

18     July 1993, if the 2nd Corps was to move towards Sarajevo, it seems to me

19     that this would raise three major issues from a military standpoint:  A,

20     on moving towards Sarajevo, and if you abandon your positions, then the

21     front -- Serb front-line located at the top could follow you and could

22     encircle you, because the other front-line is lower down.  Assuming that

23     the front-line does not follow you, this is what the map indicates.  You

24     would have to cut across one front-line between Olovo, Vares, and Visoko.

25     And even if you were to cross this first front-line, you would then hit

Page 38617

 1     on a second front-line, which is a line which shows us that Sarajevo was

 2     surrounded.

 3             Was this a serious military consideration, in other words, that

 4     the 2nd Corps could have unblocked Sarajevo in July of 1993, given these

 5     parameters I've just submitted to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I can

 7     answer your question.

 8             The document you mentioned, and the proposal which the HVO in

 9     Mostar put forward at the talks and we conveyed to the Supreme Command,

10     was to set aside three brigades of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and one

11     brigade of the HVO, but this did not refer to the brigades of what was

12     then the 2nd Corps because, as I've already said, at that time the

13     2nd Corps was simply unable to set aside even a smaller unit than a

14     brigade.  That's how fierce the fighting was.  I mentioned that when we

15     were talking about the alleged abandonment of positions either by the BH

16     forces or the HVO units.  But what would have happened, had part of the

17     forces been sent from the 2nd Corps to deblock Sarajevo, that was not

18     possible at that time, but it was done later on, as regards the

19     2nd Corps.

20             As I've already mentioned, there was an operative defensive, and

21     after that our corps gradually moved to a tactical offensive and, later

22     on, an operative offensive on many parts of the front, and we achieved

23     this in the following way:  We set apart parts of our best units to

24     create mobile units which were able to engage in combat in any part of,

25     conditionally speaking, all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These were the

Page 38618

 1     so-called manoeuvre brigades.  Once we had done this, in terms of

 2     organisation, an attempt was made to lift the siege of Sarajevo, which

 3     was not successful.  I, personally, with a few other officers from the

 4     corps command, brought a brigade, one of these manoeuvre brigades of the

 5     2nd Corps, to positions for lifting the siege of Sarajevo.  We even

 6     reached Trebevic.  Up to that point, I hadn't ever been there.  I wasn't

 7     sure precisely where it was.  But as you said quite correctly, the route

 8     we took to get there was the one you mentioned, and we arrived at this,

 9     as you called it, other line, second line, in order to reach the first

10     line, which is this little circle around Sarajevo, which was our aim, but

11     the attempt was unsuccessful, both as regards our brigade and all the

12     other brigades.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Makar, when asked by His Honour Judge Antonetti, you said the

16     proposal was made by these people from the HVO and that you conveyed it

17     to the Supreme Defence Staff.  Was this the Supreme Defence Staff of the

18     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that did not enter the transcript, so

19     to whom did you convey this proposal?

20        A.   Well, it says in the document that this proposal was made and

21     conveyed to the Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   Very well.  You have the map before you.  For you to delimit the

24     areas of the Posavina Operative Group and the other group, you have the

25     map.  Can you mark this now with -- mark one with one X and the other

Page 38619

 1     with two Xs?

 2        A.   So we will use two Xs, since it's the 2nd Corps.  That's the area

 3     of the Bosanska Posavina Operative Group, so, conditionally speaking,

 4     this is where it was.  And to facilitate understanding, where it says

 5     "Gracac, Brcko, and Srebrenik" to the south, more or less, that is where

 6     the Operative Group within the 2nd Corps was.  The

 7     Bosanska Posavina/Orasje Operative Group is where there is one X, that's

 8     the short red line right next to the River Sava.  It contains several HVO

 9     brigades, but they had very strong artillery, and I will take the liberty

10     of indicating this by arrows.  Their artillery fired towards our defence

11     zone along this whole area which Madam West conditionally named the

12     corridor.  That's what I was trying to say.  So they were providing

13     artillery support to us because their artillery was stronger than the

14     artillery of our Operative Group 1.

15        Q.   Mr. Makar, to make things perfectly clear, where there is one X,

16     is that the Operative Zone of Posavina which is part of the HVO?

17        A.   Yes, I said that these were HVO brigades.

18        Q.   Were they part of the HVO?

19        A.   Yes, they were part of the HVO, they were within its composition.

20        Q.   Mr. Makar -- I would now briefly like to pass into private

21     session, because there's a document I want to put to the witness.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Operative Group of

23     the Posavina, you've indicated a cross in that area.  It is beyond -- two

24     Xs, all right.  But the artillery support which you indicated, well, does

25     this mean that these HVO units were on Croatian territory?  Because as

Page 38620

 1     you've shown it here, this would be on the other side of the border.

 2     This is why I have a question about it.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, it was

 4     not without reason that I asked for a map.  This map is not very precise,

 5     and my hand is not so precise.  All these units were on the territory of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This was an

 8     important point.

 9             Let's move into private session, please.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just one terminological point we

11     have to clarify.

12        Q.   His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you whether the Posavina

13     Operative Group was outside the territory.  That's the one marked with

14     one X.  Was it an operative group or the Posavina Operative Zone which

15     was part of the HVO?

16        A.   Your Honours, I noticed this too, but I think my reply was clear.

17     Judge Antonetti was asking about the Operative Zone Posavina marked with

18     one X, and later we explained this when commenting on this, on the one X.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38621











11 Pages 38621-38624 redacted. Private session.















Page 38625

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 38626

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session, and

 2     Mr. Kovacic has been authorised by the Chamber to ask a few questions,

 3     and the time used will be deducted from his overall time.

 4             MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

 6        Q.   Witness, please, you were shown a map, and you marked some things

 7     on it, and you were asked a lot about the map of this Boskoski corridor,

 8     P10902 was the number.  You have it on the screen.

 9             Now, I happened to notice, and bearing in mind your testimony at

10     the beginning, when you said that the plans of the Serb forces had been

11     made 100 years ago and were just revitalised or revived later on, we see

12     here the positions of the JNA or, rather, the Serb forces in the area of

13     the territory of the Republic of Croatia, and in Bosnia-Herzegovina as

14     well, all a little to the west of the territory of Yugoslavia.

15             Now, if we look at this entire map and this whole area, do you

16     agree that for the JNA or, rather, the Serbs that helped it, it was

17     completely irrelevant, in actual fact, on whose territory -- the

18     territory of which state was the territory that they wished to take

19     control of?  In other words, the Serb forces, whether their plans were --

20     plans were to take over territory -- that their plans were to take over

21     territory, take control of territory, regardless of the republic that

22     territory was located in?

23        A.   Your Honours --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

25             Ms. West.

Page 38627

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  Although I did not ask this exact

 2     question, I was asking it from the Croatian side, the response we got was

 3     that he would have to on this, and he didn't want to answer it.  And I

 4     would say that the same holds here, and that he can cannot speculate.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just wait.  I have to confer

 6     with my colleagues.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the Chamber has

 9     conferred, given the question raised and the objection raised as well,

10     and we feel that we are speculating here and that, therefore, you are not

11     authorised to ask this question.

12             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I'm in

13     your hands, but for the record, and for you, too, I'd just like to say

14     one thing, since I didn't have an opportunity to respond to the objection

15     raised by the Prosecutor.

16             I didn't ask for speculation.  The witness, at the very beginning

17     of his testimony, spoke about history and certain Serb strategic

18     documents.  And at the end of his testimony now, I just happened to link

19     that up with the situation on the ground with the positions that were

20     indicated here.  So I'm not asking for any speculation.

21             Now, my question was whether he is a soldier, and I referred to

22     his profession and his professionalism, whether he is a soldier -- and

23     we've heard the kind of education and training he had, and what he is, a

24     military expert, whether he sees this situation, which I consider --

25     whether he considers the situation to be as I have explained it and as I

Page 38628

 1     see it.  So it is not speculation.  We can have a clear answer from the

 2     witness, whatever he chooses to say.

 3             And, second, the relevancy of that question is, first of all, to

 4     be found in paragraph 232 of the indictment, the international armed

 5     conflict area, and partially in paragraph 15, which speaks about

 6     conspiracy or the joint criminal enterprise.

 7             So this wasn't speculation, and the Prosecutor was wrong on that

 8     score.  Her question was far different from what I'm asking now.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just add a

10     sentence to complete what Mr. Kovacic was just saying.

11             In view of the fact that the witness referred to certain

12     historical documents and plans to create a Greater Serbia, I would just

13     like to emphasise, precisely within the context of what Mr. Kovacic was

14     saying, that the plans to create a Greater Serbia were drawn up at a time

15     when the state of Croatia did not exist within the present borders, or

16     the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And in those plans for a Greater Serbia

17     they always incorporated the same areas, the same territory, both in

18     today's Croatia and in today's Bosnia-Herzegovina, which are populated

19     predominantly by a Serb population.  And so the question by my learned

20     friend Mr. Kovacic, if I understand it correctly, was geared towards that

21     end; that is to say, the plan to create a Greater Serbia on the same

22     area, quite independently of which specific state they would be targeting

23     at this point in time.

24             MS. WEST:  If I could only be heard briefly.

25             Your Honour, the witness has indicated a project about

Page 38629

 1     Greater Serbia that he had been involved in, but I quote from page 90 of

 2     today.  He said:

 3             "I am here as a fact witness and a specific area of knowledge.  I

 4     am not here as an expert.  I don't want to go into this any further,

 5     because I have not prepared myself to testify about it."

 6             He should not be allowed to speculate.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the question that

 8     you have raised can be touched upon when your expert witness will be

 9     brought to this courtroom.  I had the opportunity to read his report, and

10     this topic will have ample time to be dealt with when your expert witness

11     will be brought into this courtroom.  So this expert witness will be in a

12     much better position than this current witness to testify on this.

13             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

14     please.  I completely agree and wholly accept your position, but I think

15     that it is my duty to respond to my colleague saying it was speculation.

16     This is far from speculation, in view of this witness's professional

17     qualifications.  Thank you.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to adhere to

19     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I think it is my turn to complete my

20     redirect, because this is a Stojic witness.  And so following up to the

21     question that was asked - I don't want to repeat it - in view of your

22     ruling, I'd like to ask the witness about something he ought to know

23     about and the events he ought to know because, because he was a member of

24     the JNA.

25             Mr. Makar, we heard many questions here about how the Serb units

Page 38630

 1     were arming themselves in Bosnia-Herzegovina with the attendant parts

 2     occupied in Croatia.  Now, my question to you would be this:  Do you

 3     know -- do you have direct knowledge and awareness of the kind of weapons

 4     that there were on the territory of the present Republika Srpska and the

 5     territory which already in 1991 and 1992 was controlled by the Serb side

 6     or, rather, the JNA, or the Yugoslav Army, whichever you prefer, and the

 7     attendant paramilitary formations, and where these weapons came from to

 8     that area; what the quantities of these weapons, and, generally, can you

 9     tell us something about that?

10             MS. WEST:  Objection.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Ms. West.

12             MS. WEST:  This is the redirect of this witness.  This has no

13     basis in the cross-examination at all of what we talked about.  And this

14     witness indicated on the cross-examination that although these

15     individuals - he wouldn't identify them as Serb soldiers - were going by,

16     he could not identify what they were carrying.  So he has no basis to

17     understand what the Serbs were using as weapons, and it's beyond the

18     scope of the cross-examination.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer.  But

20     before we do, Ms. Nozica, please answer.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise, but

22     this is a mistake.  I did not ask about the weapons which possibly later

23     on arrived through any corridor of some kind.  I asked about the weapons

24     and Mr. Makar's knowledge about weapons that arrived before the conflict,

25     and after the conflict in Croatia, weapons which arrived into

Page 38631

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's what I asked him about, not about what

 2     possibly arrived subsequently.  And let me say straight away that I'm

 3     referring to the part of the examination -- the cross-examination

 4     conducted by the Prosecutor that Croatia had -- it was in Croatia's

 5     interest to prevent the inflow of the weapons through that corridor.  So

 6     my question was:  What kind of weapons, by the establish -- by the time

 7     the corridor was established, did the Serb forces have in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the territory which they had occupied in Croatia?

 9     That was my question, to make things clear linked to the objection raised

10     by my learned friend.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, in redirect a

12     question has to be linked to a question that was raised during the

13     cross-examination.  And you said that during the cross-examination,

14     Ms. West had touched upon the issue of weapons and of the supply of those

15     weapons, and that your question is in direct line with the

16     cross-examination.  Is that how we should understand it?

17             Very well.  The Chamber shall confer to see whether they agree.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Right, right.

19             MS. WEST:  And, Mr. President, if I can just point out one more

20     thing.  My apologies, but on page 67, line 12, Ms. Nozica indicated that

21     her redirect was over, and that's when we started the questions of

22     Mr. Kovacic.

23             MR. KHAN:  Well, Your Honour, there's two points, if I may.

24             I agree that ordinarily this has been brought about, and we would

25     say for the record that we do take a consistent position that any

Page 38632

 1     additional questions from any team that arises out of Prosecution

 2     cross-examination should be -- any application for further

 3     cross-examination should be made before any re-examination by the

 4     Defence.  That's the first point.

 5             But, Your Honour, be that as it may, the issue is clearly

 6     relevant, further questions were allowed, and I would ask that

 7     Your Honours exercise your discretion so as to allow one or two

 8     additional questions to be put.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Khan.

10             Mr. Kovacic asked the authorisation and we granted it, and then

11     we realised the question could not actually be raised.  So Mr. Kovacic

12     did not ask a question, and then your learned colleague stood up to start

13     with a question that had not been raised.  So from a proceedings point of

14     view, I'm afraid that this is finished.

15             In any case, the question may be important, but it has already

16     been touched upon at several instances.  And the question has been

17     raised, and I could actually answer this question myself.  And in any

18     case, this question will also be raised again during the testimony of

19     other witnesses.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I completely respect

21     your decision and won't insist upon it, but I stand by the fact that the

22     question does emanate precisely from the cross-examination conducted

23     because what was asked was whether it was in Croatia's interest to arm

24     the 2nd Corps in order to make it impossible for the Serb Army to bring

25     in supplies.  I just want to say that I didn't try and do anything

Page 38633

 1     outside the Rules, but I do abide by the Trial Chamber's ruling, of

 2     course.

 3             MR. KOVACIC:  Sorry, sorry, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to correct the

 5     transcript.  When I said that I could answer myself, it meant that a lot

 6     of witnesses testified here and said that when the JNA left the barracks

 7     where they were based, they took weapons, and especially those from the

 8     territory Defence.  It appears in several documents.  Some witnesses

 9     testified on this, and some other witnesses also said that those weapons

10     had been handed out to Serbs.  So that's what I was referring to, and I

11     was referring to the 30.000-odd pages of the transcript.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That is

13     precisely what I wanted the witness to confirm.  Thank you for saying

14     that.

15             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to ease the atmosphere

16     a bit, I hope you won't deduct those two minutes that I've spent.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it won't be deducted.

18     Mr. Petkovic.

19             THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you to ask

20     you to ask the witness, to resolve the question of the corridor and the

21     influence of Croatia, for him to answer whether behind the town of Brcko,

22     along the River Sava, whether the Croatian Army was there and which

23     brigades were deployed along the River Sava, including the town of Brcko,

24     and then we've solved the problem of the control of this passage or

25     corridor.

Page 38634

 1             MS. WEST:  Mr. President --

 2             THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber shall confer.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber conferred on the

 6     request of General Petkovic, and we feel that the hearing of this witness

 7     is finished.  And the witness also said that he had no precise knowledge

 8     as to the situation or the condition of the Croat Army on the other side

 9     of the Croat border.  The question could have been interesting, but the

10     witness had clearly stated, through other questions that were raised,

11     that he had no knowledge of this.

12             Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you

13     for having come upon the request of Mr. Stojic to testify in this

14     courtroom.  I wish you a very safe trip back home, and I will ask the

15     usher to take you out of the courtroom.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and

17     everybody else present in the courtroom.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I have a -- from a

20     personal point of view, I have a technical question to ask you regarding

21     the objections.

22             In your country, because I believe that you were a practicing

23     lawyer in Sarajevo, in proceedings in Bosnia-Herzegovina do lawyers raise

24     objections?

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, certainly,

Page 38635

 1     certainly they do object, and I have to acknowledge, as my colleague

 2     Mr. Kovacic said to ease the atmosphere, they do respect them.  It's a

 3     right.  I don't know why you're asking me that, whether because I stand

 4     up to object and I seem to do that most frequently in the courtroom.

 5     But, yes, it's true that in my system, objection is allowed, because if

 6     we weren't allowed to raise objections, then procedure might follow a

 7     path which is not commensurate to the path prescribed.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

 9     answer.

10             As for next week, we have a witness for two hours.  The

11     Prosecutor has made a written motion, and the Chamber shall render a

12     written decision on this.  For the time being, the witness is still

13     planned, and the testimony will happen on Monday, bearing in mind that

14     if, Ms. Nozica, you reduce the time of your examination-in-chief, we

15     could actually be finished with this witness at the end of the day on

16     Monday; otherwise, he will have to stay until Wednesday, because as you

17     know, we are not going to have a hearing on Tuesday due to an

18     international conference which will be held a few metres from this

19     building.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.  We

21     will look into that possibility, that is to say, to curtail the

22     cross-examination, and we will inform the Chamber thereof -- or

23     examination-in-chief, and we'll inform you in the course of tomorrow.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             I would like to know whether anybody else wants to raise a

Page 38636

 1     question of an administrative nature, since we have some time.  It's

 2     actually a very rare commodity.

 3             Yes, Mr. Praljak.

 4             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I apologise to the

 5     Trial Chamber because sometimes I can't suppress my reactions, so please

 6     understand that it's just my desire to establish the facts, nothing more

 7     than that, when I have the reactions I have.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, and I had fully

 9     understood this.  I have said it, on a personal note, that staying put

10     for hours on end without saying anything is very difficult.  But please

11     try, in future, when you feel like saying something, to write a note to

12     your counsel and to ask for help on his or her side, and your counsels

13     will intervene.

14             Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:  The Trial Chamber had inquired about the map entitled

16     "Posavina Corridor," and I understand that it's a map that was made in

17     1995, but it is based on April 1994 in that area.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. West.  This is

19     precisely what I had said.  You will see that in the transcript.  This is

20     what I had mentioned, but we can have a look at this.  But in any case,

21     thank you very much for bringing this point of clarification.

22             I would like to thank everyone, and we will meet again on Monday

23     at 1415.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.32 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of March,

Page 38637

 1                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.