1 Monday, 20 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Prlic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 This is Monday, April the 20th, 2009. I would like to greet the
15 accused, as well as their counsels, as well as the representatives of the
16 Office of the Prosecution, and all those assisting us in the courtroom.
17 First of all, I would like to give the floor to the Registrar,
18 who'd like to communicate an IC number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 2D has submitted its list of documents to be tendered through
21 Witness Korac, Davor. This list shall be given Exhibit IC987.
22 Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
24 The Chamber is going to make a -- going to render an oral
25 decision proprio motu for the Stojic Defence.
1 The Chamber recalls the decision of the guide-lines for the
2 presentation of exculpatory evidence on 24 April 2008, and in particular
3 paragraph 35 relating to guide-line 9. Any motion for the admission of
4 documentary evidence must be submitted at the shortest possible moment
5 after the presentation of all the evidence pertaining to a municipality
6 or a given matter.
7 The Chamber notes that to date the Stojic Defence has not filed
8 any motion -- any written motion for the admission of evidence under
9 guide-line 9. It could, therefore, infer that the Stojic Defence does
10 not intend to file a motion under guide-line 9 on the matters for which
11 it has finished its presentation. Indeed, the Chamber recalls that the
12 Defence teams should not wait until the presentation of their case has
13 ended to file such motions.
14 This being said, the Chamber requests the Stojic Defence to file,
15 before the 23rd of April, 2009, its observations on the absence of any
16 motion filing under guide-line 9 at this stage. The Chamber also
17 requests the Stojic Defence, also before the 23rd of April, 2009, to let
18 it know of its intentions to file or not to file one or several motions
19 under guide-line number 9, and if so, on which matters and under which
21 The Chamber wishes also to recall, for the benefit of the
22 Stojic Defence, that the possible coming of Momcilo Mandic as a witness
23 after the presentation of [indiscernible] will not, in any case, allow
24 him to file a new request under guide-line 9 after he will have appeared,
25 after this witness will have appeared. So, therefore, the Stojic Defence
1 is invited to tell us, before the 23rd of April, what it intends to do.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
3 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
4 We gratitude, we accept this request, and we will meet it in the
5 dead-line. We would just like to say that we did not submit that motion
6 because the Defence was not introduced according to municipalities, but
7 according to topics; and as we all know in the courtroom, the expert gave
8 a framework, the one who was questioned first; and the witness today is a
9 witness who will round off this one topic that has to do with the health
10 topic; and we will submit our request and, by the 23rd, inform the
11 Chamber what we intend to do and by when. And I acknowledge that if
12 Witness Mandic is heard later, we will include the evidence for admission
13 that refer to him.
14 Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.
16 Mr. Kovacic, you have two minutes because you requested two
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I think that it is okay.
20 Your Honours, I would kindly ask me to permit an oral reply
21 regarding the Prosecution --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the interpreters
23 cannot hear you.
24 MR. KOVACIC: We will try this one.
25 I'm asking the Trial Chamber to permit me to give only one small
1 item as reply to Prosecution's response to Slobodan Praljak's motion to
2 add 253 exhibits to the Rule 65 ter. This response was submitted by the
3 Prosecution on 16 April 2009
4 In the response, the Prosecution, inter alia, says that the
5 Prosecution is prejudiced, as extremely few of those documents have been
6 disclosed to the Prosecution. The problem is that all documents from the
7 motion -- included in the motion were not released on the e-court. My
8 reply to that is as follows: Due to the technical error, the Prosecution
9 is right; all the documents were really not released. However, after
10 this response, precisely during this weekend we find out this error, and
11 now all the documents are released and all are available on the e-court.
12 I hope that will assist the Prosecution to go into those documents and
13 see what it's all about.
14 I don't think this was necessary to file in written form, it
15 would be sufficient, and it had to be replied.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Could you fetch the witness, usher.
18 Whilst we're waiting for the witness, we have a second oral
19 decision which I'm going to read right away, a decision on the adding of
20 several documents on the 65 ter motion of the Stojic Defence.
21 The Stojic Defence has requested that nine exhibits should be
22 added to its 65 ter list, to be submitted to the witness, Ivan Bagaric.
23 The Petkovic Defence, on the 17th of April, 2009, pointed out it didn't
24 oppose the request for the adding of 2D01540 on the 65 ter list submitted
25 by the Stojic Defence. The other Defence teams and the Prosecution did
1 not file any motion.
2 First and foremost, the Chamber notes the withdrawal of the
3 request for admission of 2D01535, submitted on April the 20th, 2009, and
4 of the corrigendum submitted on the same day by the Stojic Defence on the
5 latest motion filed on the 17th of April, 2009.
6 The Chamber also notes or points out that the request for the
7 adding of eight exhibits to the 65 ter list comes in very late because it
8 was carried out only a few days before the appearance of Witness
9 Ivan Bagaric. However, in spite of the late-coming of this request, the
10 Chamber notes that the Stojic Defence could not obtain six out of the
11 eight exhibits, i.e., Exhibits 2D01534, 2D01536, 2D01537, 2D01538,
12 2D01539 and 2D01540 at the moment. It only could get those documents at
13 the moment of the proofing.
14 Furthermore, the Chamber notes that these exhibits show some
15 signs of reliability and probative value and relevance, and that the
16 parties requested to present their observations did not invoke any
17 harming of their interests because of the request coming in late, the
18 request for the adding of exhibits. Therefore, the Chamber decides to
19 admit the adding of those exhibits to the 65 ter list.
20 However, for 2D00303 and for 3D00235, the Chamber points out that
21 in its request of the 17th of April, 2009, the Stojic Defence pointed out
22 that it already had those documents before the proofing of the witness,
23 but that the need to submit them through Ivan Bagaric only appeared after
24 the proofing of that witness. This explains why the adding to the
25 list -- to the 65 ter list was made late --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Was requested late. Interpreter's correction.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is the Chamber's view that
3 this is not a sufficient reason to justify such a late request for adding
4 those exhibits to the 65 ter list.
5 The explanation provided by the Stojic Defence in its corrigendum
6 of the 20th of April do not justify the late submission of these
7 exhibits; hence, the Chamber requests the -- the Chamber rejects the
8 request for adding of 2D00303 and 2D00235.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please
12 Could you please state your name, surname, and date of birth.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Ivan Bagaric, born on
14 the 11th of November, 1961.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a doctor.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where do you work?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I am working at the
20 Faculty of Medicine in Split and in Mostar, but I also am a deputy in the
21 Assembly of the Republic of Croatia. This is my political duty.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. As a member of
23 Parliament or a doctor, have you already been a witness before a court or
24 is this the first time you have ever been a witness before a court, or is
25 this the first time you have been a witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not the first time that I
2 am testifying. I testified before in the case of Mr. Naletilic, but I
3 testified to the general circumstances.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the Naletilic case, were you
5 a Prosecution or a Defence witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a witness for the Defence.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Could you please read
8 the solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: IVAN BAGARIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
14 Doctor, since you have already testified, I'll keep it very
15 brief, since you are familiar with the procedure. You will have to
16 answer questions asked by Ms. Nozica, and she has prepared a series of
17 documents which are in binders, which we'll receive when Ms. Nozica asks
18 you questions on those documents. Please try and be accurate and brief
19 in your answers.
20 If there is a question you do not understand, even if it's a
21 question asked by the Judges, do not hesitate to ask the one who asks you
22 the question to rephrase it. You will first answer Ms. Nozica's
23 questions, after which the other counsels of the other accused, as
24 basically Ms. Nozica only represents Mr. Stojic, may ask you questions as
25 well. The four Judges could also ask you questions to ask for
1 clarification. After this, the Prosecutor, on your right-hand side, will
2 cross-examine you and ask you questions as well.
3 We have four days for your evidence. Since you're under oath,
4 you're a court witness, which means that you're not to have any contact
5 with Mr. Stojic's Defence and with anyone else on the content of your
7 This is what I had to tell you.
8 Without further adieu, I'd like to give the floor to Ms. Nozica,
9 whom I'd like to greet again.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Once more, good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
12 everyone in the courtroom. Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 MS. NOZICA: Before I begin with my examination, I would just
15 like to say that Mr. Bagaric asked me, and I'm obliged to transmit this
16 to the Court, we have planned four hours for the examination-in-chief of
17 this witness; and we have made a calculation according to which the
18 witness could complete his testimony by Thursday, within four days, in
19 the courtroom this week; but the witness particularly asked, if possible,
20 to stick to that because on Friday he needs to return in the afternoon to
21 Zagreb because of the appointments he has there. So I would like to
22 inform the Chamber about that right at the beginning.
23 Examination by Ms. Nozica:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bagaric, I'm going to read or present to the
25 Court briefly your particulars, and before we begin the examination, I
1 would like you to confirm if all these particulars are correct.
2 You are -- you graduated at the Faculty of Medicine in 1986 in
3 Sarajevo. In 1986 until 1992, you worked as a doctor at the
4 Tomislavgrad Medical Centre?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were a deputy in the Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 after the first multi-party elections in the period from 1990 until 1998?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. From March 1992 until September 1992, you were the chief of the
10 main medical headquarters of the HVO?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. From September 1992 until 1996, you were first assistant head of
13 the Defence Department and then assistant minister of defence for health
14 in the HVO OZ-HB and then later in the Croatian section of the HZ-HB.
15 You completed your specialisation from the topic of public health from
16 1995 to 1998?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. From 1999 until 2001, you worked as assistant minister for health
19 in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. From 2001 until 2003, you worked at the Institute of
22 Naval Medicine in Split?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. From 2002 until today, you are a docent for public health at the
25 Faculty of Medicine in Mostar?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And in Split?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You said today that you are a representative in the Assembly from
5 2003 until today, the Assembly of the Republic of Croatia, for Croatian
6 citizens who live outside of the Republic of Croatia?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. So if I understood that correctly, you represent all Croatian
9 citizens in the Assembly of Croatia who happen to live outside the
10 Republic of Croatia; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct, regardless of the fact if they live in
12 Croatia -- in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Australia, Canada and so on. As
13 long as they are Croatian citizens, I represent them in the Parliament.
14 Q. All right. Now I'm going to deal with the period which we
15 mentioned, it being that from March 1992, you were the chief of the main
16 medical headquarters, and we're also going to deal with the period when
17 you were the assistant head of the Health Department.
18 Mr. Bagaric, we had a witness here who explained in some detail
19 the forming of the HZ-HB Medical Corps, and I would like you now to do
20 that as concisely and as briefly as possible, but your answer should
21 discuss primarily your role in all of that, so how and when the
22 Medical Corps of the HZ-HB was formed.
23 A. Thank you for the question and the opportunity to speak here,
24 Your Honours. I think that it is very important for everyone here to
25 understand the context in which the Health Service of the HVO was
1 organised, and it refers to the period mentioned by the counsel.
2 After the open aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina and after
3 overt aggression against the Republic of Croatia, excuse me, and evident
4 preparations at the time of the Yugoslav Army and the Serbs, who rose
5 against the Republic of Croatia, after the attack on the village of Ravno
6 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and all the preparations for war in Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, everything that was going on in the Parliament of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina at the time in Sarajevo, we, especially us doctors who
9 happened to be deputies as well, decided in a way to try to organise a
10 kind of service which, in the event of war, would --
11 Q. I apologise, Mr. Bagaric. I would kindly ask you to slow down
12 for the record, please.
13 A. We doctor, primarily those of us who were deputies in the
14 Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina, decided to try and form a service that
15 would respond to the needs of those who might need us, and who were
16 those? Irrespective of whether they were civilians or soldiers,
17 irrespective of their ethnic affiliation, at the beginning of 1992 we
18 started to establish the Medical Service that later on would become the
19 main Medical Corps, and later on it was integrated into the units of the
20 Croatian Defence Council and, later on during the times of war, had to
21 care for the wounded, unfortunately, both civilians and soldiers, and so
22 on and so forth. How did we do that? To put it simply, we toured all of
23 our settlements, the settlements with a major Croatian population, and by
24 and large those with mixed population, because we were working together
25 with Muslims, Bosniaks, and in those settlements we decided which points
1 would be suitable to receive wounded, if that was the need, because there
2 was an evident threat of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Primarily, we relied
3 on our own civilian health institutions that existed there, and I'm
4 talking about medical centres here.
5 Besides having toured all those settlements, together with a
6 specialist we also envisaged within the medical centres the so-called
7 reception departments that receive wounded, if that was needed.
8 What we did at the time we did together with Muslims and also
9 with the Serbs who resided in the area. All of us together volunteered
10 to establish a very serious preparation.
11 Later on, when the military -- the so-called military units were
12 already established at the municipal levels, we issued an order -- or,
13 rather, we requested from the medical centres to appoint the so-called
14 municipal medical heads that would somehow accompany the units which
15 existed and were organised at the municipal level.
16 Later on, when the brigades had already been formed after the HVO
17 had been reorganised, we followed that reorganisation by assisting in
18 logistics terms. We formed the Medical Service in the units of the
19 Croatian Defence Council.
20 I omitted to say that officially the so-called Main Medical Staff
21 was established, and its tasks were the ones that I've already mentioned,
22 and its task was also to be integrated and work by extending assistance
23 to everybody, irrespective of whether they were civilians or soldiers.
24 The only thing that we could rely on at the time was civilian medical
25 service, i.e., medical centres. Later on, many of these medical centres,
1 due to the circumstances of war, become the so-called war hospitals, and
2 the war hospitals that we had established as such were also tasked with
3 looking after the wounded.
4 At a certain point in time, we lost communication with the large
5 medical centres which before that both Muslims and Croatians used. That
6 was before the war. Sarajevo was isolated, and a lot of specialists
7 remained in the large medical institutions, and that's why we suffered a
8 lack of doctors, equipment, and medical supplies. The Main Medical Staff
9 was primarily tasked with providing logistical support or medical support
10 to the points that I have already mentioned.
11 Unfortunately, the conflict between Muslims and Croats which
12 happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina resulted in the Croatian territories
13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina hitting even harder times. You have to know
14 that at one point in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croats were confined to
15 several completely isolated enclaves in Central Bosnia.
16 Q. Mr. Bagaric, we will come to that. I apologise for interrupting.
17 I just wanted to take things at a time.
18 You have just now explained how the Medical Staff was
19 established, the Main Medical Staff. Can you please tell me whether you
20 were the head of that medical staff?
21 A. Yes, I had the honour to serve as the head of the Main Medical
22 Staff during the war, and later on, when the Defence Department of the
23 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was established, it was integrated
24 into the Defence Department. And later on, I assumed a different role.
25 Actually, I was still the head of that Staff, but I was also appointed
1 the assistant of the head of the Defence Department, and then when that
2 Defence Department was reorganised and became a ministry, I became the
3 assistant minister for defence within the Croatian Defence Council.
4 Q. Who and when appointed you as the assistant minister for health
5 within the Defence Department?
6 A. I believe that I was appointed sometime in September, I believe,
7 1992. I was appointed by the Croatian Defence Council. Up to then, we
8 already had an organised service on the ground which was then
9 incorporated into the Croatian Defence Council, into its military part,
10 that in a ceratin way defended the territories I've already spoken about.
11 Q. In a certain way, you've already answered and preempted my next
12 question. My next question is: What was the task of the
13 Health Department, and what were the principles of functioning within the
14 Health Department? I would kindly ask you to tell us very briefly, what
15 were your guiding principles?
16 A. Our task was to assist everybody and extend assistance to
17 everybody who needed our help, and this is really what transpired.
18 Everybody who needed help, irrespective of whether they were civilians or
19 soldiers, irrespective of their ethnic background, they would receive our
20 assistance. That was our main task. And as for our guiding principles
21 that we -- that governed us, it was volunteerism. We could not order any
22 one doctor to be engaged and to help us.
23 It is well known that during the war, a lot of doctors, due to
24 the war, had left the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
25 interestingly enough and very important would be to mention here, I
1 compiled my Master's thesis on the subject of the organisation of the
2 War Medical Service as a model; and I could then say that approximately
3 3.000 doctors had left the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and about
4 6700 medical technicians or other medical personnel had left. It was a
5 major drain, and that's why we did not have a choice. We worked with
6 those who were willing to work as volunteers, and our main principle was
7 openness to everybody. We could not do anything else. We did not have a
8 choice under the circumstances, faced with the situation. We had to
9 develop the spirit of openness, and this was a good thing in all that
10 misfortune, because our policy was based on accepting any expert
11 [as interpreted], irrespective of their ethnic background.
12 A very important and interesting characteristic of our service
13 was the fact that irrespective of ethnic background, we extended help to
14 people, and we also worked together, all of us, without regard to our
15 ethnic background.
16 For example, in Mostar during the war, we had two surgeons, and
17 both -- we had actually several surgeons, not many, but two of them were
18 Serbs. Throughout the entire war, they remained in Mostar and helped
19 people. We had just one anesthesiologist, who was a Muslim. I don't
20 want to go into great length. You can check that, and you can actually
21 see what the meaning was of that openness, the common spirit, and
22 fighting and struggle for every single patient.
23 Q. Mr. Bagaric, which services were part of the Health Department,
24 if you can remember?
25 A. It was a long time ago. I'm sure you will appreciate it, but let
1 me try and remember. We had several re-organisations within the
2 framework of our Medical Corps, and it all depended on the situation in
3 the field. However, once we were integrated into the Defence Department
4 of the HVO, then, within our own Health Department, we had the
5 Main Medical Staff as the logistical part of the healthcare. Then we
6 also had a department for looking after the wounded, and the third thing
7 was the Control and Inspection Services, because our task was very
8 important, not only when it came to the building up of the policies of
9 the health system, but also its control and supervision, the control and
10 supervision of its functioning.
11 Later on, we were again reorganised as the situation demanded and
12 as the need demanded at any given time.
13 JUDGE PRANDLER: You really must comply with the request to slow
14 down, because it is impossible for the interpreters to follow you. Thank
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I apologise.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before listening to you,
18 Doctor, I have a technical question to ask you.
19 If I understand you rightly, in the case of Mostar, a Croatian
20 who was injured would be operated on by a Serbian surgeon, and the
21 anesthetician [as interpreted] was a Muslim; that was the situation you
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened often, very often.
24 However, Your Honour, this was a very common occurrence, but it did not
25 happen all the time. I just provided that by way of an example and said
1 that we had two Serb doctors and one anesthesiologist who was a Muslim.
2 We also had other doctors. We had Croats and others, and they looked
3 after the patients, irrespective of their national background.
4 However, I need to mention the permanent lack of medical
5 personnel. Save for the anesthesiologist whom I mentioned, we had to
6 seek others, other persons who would be in charge of anesthesiology, and
7 in addition to the surgeons that we had, their numbers were never
8 sufficient. We had to seek others, and we managed to make due in order
9 to make the system work. However, we were all the time faced with a lack
10 of personnel and a lack of equipment. That was our biggest problem.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I know that you are a temperamental person and it is
13 a problem for you to speak slowly. However, we will need to slow down,
14 and we will need to make short breaks between my question and your
16 You just explained which services existed within the Health
17 Department. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who the heads of
18 these services were subordinated to?
19 A. Since I was the head of the organisation of health in the
20 Croatian Defence Council, heads of particular departments, as we called
21 them, were subordinated directly to me. In a certain way, I was their
22 commander, as it were, although we were primarily colleagues.
23 Q. Mr. Bagaric, we're talking about things in general, and you told
24 us already, but let me ask you again. You said that throughout all that
25 time in the territory of the HZ-HB, there was a lack of medical
1 personnel, doctors and all the other medical personnel. Could you please
2 provide us with a general assessment as to whether the Health Service of
3 the HZ-HB had at its disposal enough medical supplies and equipment,
4 including drugs and medicines?
5 A. All that time, we were faced with a major and terrible lack of
6 everything. There was a scarcity of everything. There was a lack of
7 medicines, equipment, and people; and this especially applied to the
8 areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was inhabited by Croats, who were
9 completely isolated from the rest of the state, like, for example, the
10 hospital in Nova Bila, Zepce, Kiseljak, and so on and so forth. For
11 example, in Orasje, the situation was bad.
12 Q. It transpires from your answers that you were the assistant of
13 the Defence Department in the Health Sector -- I apologise, in the
14 Defence Department. What I would like to know is this: Could you tell
15 us whether, in the Defence Department, you had meetings of the collegium,
16 and how often did they take place, if they did?
17 A. We doctors maintained frequent contacts. We worked together in
18 our medical staffs. However, when it comes to the Defence Department, I
19 would like to say that, yes, we did have meetings of the collegium. I
20 can't tell you exactly how often they took place. It was every now and
21 then. Sometimes it would happen every week, sometimes once in a
22 fortnight, but I believe that it was done every time a need arose.
23 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how decisions were
24 made at the collegium, at least at those meetings that you attended and
25 of which you have direct experience?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones that are not needed
2 be switched off, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In view of the nature of the work
4 that I carried out, and practically constantly being out in the field,
5 going here and there, I was perhaps not able to attend every single
6 collegium meeting. I did attend them, but not every single one. And
7 when I attended them, the characteristic was a discussion about problems
8 in the way certain positions were adopted, and if any of the assistants
9 had some proposals, they were discussed. And, in a way, after the
10 discussion, certain conclusions were adopted.
11 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you, as an assistant in the Health Sector, as part
12 of the Defence Department, how independent were you in decision-making in
13 decisions that pertain to your field of expertise?
14 A. Well, since I am a doctor and because, in a way, we already had a
15 pretty structured health service set up already, to a large degree I
16 would say, well, I don't remember having any problems in communication,
17 or in being independent, or in the implementation of the things that I
18 was in charge of, so I had a high degree of freedom or autonomy and
20 Q. Yes, I can see that everything that is happening around you in
21 the courtroom can maybe distract you, but --
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I just have a
23 question, something specific to ask from the witness.
24 Witness, you were an assistant in the Department of the Defence
25 or the Defence Department, in charge of health matters. At the same
1 time, was there also a chief of the Health Department within the HVO, and
2 what were your -- what was your relationship with him? Because you speak
3 of your independence and so on, so I would like to know.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is an excellent
5 question, and I'm glad that you have put it.
6 At the civilian level, there was a chief of the head -- of the
7 Health Service, and later he was the minister of the Health Service, and
8 that is my dear colleague Mr. Ivan Sarac. When we're talking about
9 autonomy of my work, what I mean is the part that has to do with
10 hospitals, with the structuring of the service in the military units of
11 the HVO, and he was in charge of that part that did not belong to that.
12 These were civilian institutions, such as health sectors which were not
13 part of that sector. But we did coordinate our work constantly because
14 everything that we had in the HVO units was something that we were
15 borrowing from the civilian health sector, so that is that so-called
16 integral structure of the Health Service, and it's known in the world of
17 health organisation. It's something that is described as a model of
18 organising the work of the Health Sector.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I am going to ask you to explain, if you can, this
22 degree of autonomy that you had in decision-making. When you attended
23 the collegiums and when you discussed other areas, and when other
24 assistants, assistants from the Defence Department of Mr. Stojic also
25 attended, were you able to draw any conclusions about their autonomy and
1 proposing and decision-making? Did you have any position on that?
2 A. I think that I did not mention the fact that this level of
3 autonomy that I had to a certain degree, and the kind of professional
4 relationship that I had with the chief of the sector, was something that
5 others had too. I don't know what the relationship of each individual
6 assistant was. It's something that I cannot know. But on the basis of
7 what I saw, and based on my attendance and what I was able to see at the
8 collegium meetings, the relationship of others also was professional.
9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you also touched upon this topic. Can you explain
10 to the Trial Chamber how the Health Service was organised in the HVO
11 HZ-HB units? What I'm primarily thinking of here -- well, you said that
12 first they were municipal HVO units and then the brigades began to be
13 structured. So from that time-period on, what was the health
14 organisation like in the units?
15 A. When you say "units," what I mean are military units, the
16 military component of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council. So as an HQ
17 body, in a way, in a professional sense, we coordinated the work and, in
18 a way, were setting up that structure, as such; and it was set up in such
19 a way that each, let's say, squad had its own trained medic, each company
20 had a higher-trained medical technician, and that every brigade had its
21 own doctor. The brigade also had its own doctor. And what is important
22 to say is also that, in a way, we were implementing a policy of the
23 highest possible degree of autonomy of the Health Corps within the HVO.
24 And then, as opposed to the previous Yugoslav model, we tried, wherever
25 this was possible, to extract the Health Sector from the
1 Logistics Sector, as such. In some places, we were successful; in
2 others, we were not. This depended on the commander of the unit. The
3 goal was that those doctors were given the status of assistants so that
4 they could be as independent as possible in their work and medical care.
5 I mean, I could speak a lot more about that topic, but I think that that
6 is enough.
7 Q. Well, I wish we could have as much time as we wanted on each
8 topic so that you could explain as much as you wished, but unfortunately
9 our time is limited, so sometimes I would have to stop you, even though
10 that sometimes can be to my detriment.
11 So in any case, can you please tell me, when you said that there
12 were people in charge of the health assignments in the units, who were
13 they subordinated to?
14 A. I think that I answered that question already. At the level of
15 the military regions, we had the health chief, so he had the status of
16 the commander of the military sector. Then we had the assistant, who was
17 the assistant of the brigade commander. So in the hierarchy, when we're
18 talking about the military structure, they were an integral part of a
19 certain formation and they were directly responsible to the commander.
20 When we're talking about this professional aspect, for example,
21 when we're talking about some specific circumstances, for example, the
22 implementation of preventive health, then from the
23 Administration Health Service or the Medical Corps HQ, we could issue
24 instructions. I would even write orders, because I didn't know how to
25 communicate in other ways. But, anyway, this was something that we used
1 in order to communicate professionally amongst each other.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] We could look at a few documents
3 now. If the witness does not have with you documents -- the document
4 binder, perhaps the usher could give you those documents, but in any case
5 could you please look at the first binder of documents and now let's look
6 at this topic.
7 Q. Can you please look at the first document, 2D567. It's a
8 decision on the internal organisation of the Defence Department of the
9 17th of October.
10 A. I'm sorry, I would need some help here. 2D --
11 Q. That should be the first document. If you have the first binder,
12 it's after this list. I think you have the documents marked with
13 stickers at the side.
14 A. Yes, yes, thank you very much. I found it.
15 Q. So it's a decision about the internal organisation of the Defence
16 Department, adopted by Bruno Stojic, and approved by Mr. Boban on the
17 10th of November, 1992. Could you please look at item 5 pursuant to this
18 decision in order to see how matters from the Health Sector were
19 resolved, and it says in the chief for -- in the health section -- could
20 the interpreters please look at the original on e-court.
21 "In the Medical Sector, chief of the Medical Care for the
22 Wounded, chief of the Medical Staff, chief of the Medical Brigade Corps,
23 chief of the Control Inspections Service and directors of war hospitals
24 are appointed by the head of the Defence Department at the proposal of
25 the assistant head for the Medical Services."
1 Mr. Bagaric, according to this decision more or less from the
2 month of September, when you were appointed assistant chief, did you
3 propose -- and I'm going to only limit it to the chief of the brigade
4 Medical Corps referred to here. Can you recall how and in which way were
5 these people appointed to the position of chief of the brigade medical
7 A. Things were as you have just read out. However, before we joined
8 the Defence Department, in a certain way at the municipal level, and I'm
9 talking about the Main Medical Corps, we appointed people, and this was
10 more a matter of agreement as to who that would be. When it came to the
11 establishment of the brigades, within the brigades the commander or the
12 medical service that he relied on - I'm talking about doctors in the
13 medical centres - in a certain way they were the ones who selected, who
14 agreed as to who would be what in the unit. By and large, but not
15 always, but very often this would be done at that proposal of the brigade
16 commander. I did not see a problem there, and there were no problems
17 with the functioning at all.
18 Q. Very well.
19 A. Perhaps we proposed somebody somewhere, I cannot remember,
20 although this also applied.
21 Q. Let's look at the next document, 2D702. This is a decision of
22 your appointment on the 8th of September, 1992, and this accords with
23 your recollection of what happened; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let's look at the next document, 2D1352, please. I would like
1 you to look at page 2D660126. I'm just waiting for it to appear on
2 e-court. And if you can look at the list, this is the Health Sector and
3 this is the salary list for November 1992. There is a list here of
4 persons, and perhaps you can tell me about how many persons worked in the
5 Health Sector from September, when you were appointed assistant chief,
6 until the end of, let's say, 1993. What were the approximate numbers in
7 the service?
8 A. Well, it's not that important. I think that this is the first
9 salary that was received. Before that, there were no salaries issued.
10 But in any case, this number varied because of the requirements, but also
11 because of that element of the volunteers. Simply, somebody who was
12 available could have left for their own personal reasons to do something
13 else or to leave their job in the army, so the number ranged from 25 to
14 30 people, all in all, and they were directly subordinated to me.
15 Q. Can we look at 2D752. This is a diagram of the Health Sector,
16 and for the purpose of the transcript I would like to say this is
17 document 2D, that is the decision on internal structuring, 2D567; in
18 paragraph 13, it states that the diagram is an integral part of the
19 decision. So I would just like to you comment on the diagram and
20 explain, once again, this relationship of subordination, who was
21 subordinated to you, and how can that be clarified with the help of this
23 A. Well, it's very simple. It's clearly indicated here, in a way.
24 So the Health or the Medical Sector had three entities that were a part
25 of it. That was the Healthcare Sector, the Inspection Unit and the
1 Medical Corps HQ, which was the Medical/Logistical Sector. The other two
2 were operational sectors that had jobs in the field and were touring and
3 so on. The chiefs of these sections were directly subordinated to me,
4 and in their work, as can be seen here, in a way relies on the healthcare
5 for the wounded. They are in charge of the surgical staff, the medics,
6 the trained medical personnel that was in lower units. So, in a way,
7 that was the professional chain that was part of the structure of the
8 Medical Corps of the HVO.
9 What is important to mention here, and I didn't mention it
10 before, and I apologise to the Trial Chamber, is the following: The war
11 hospitals that we had, about 20, also had a very high degree of autonomy
12 and, in a way, they relied on our medical care service. They were
13 suffering from a shortage of doctors, of medical equipment and so on, so
14 they provided support to us and we provided support to them. So the
15 Medical Corps had several sections. One of them was the Donor Sector, so
16 it was a unit that was in charge of gathering funds either from
17 international organisations or from individuals or international
18 organisations. Their job was to collect enough equipment and medicines
19 in order for us to be able to work. So this is more or less the
21 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I would just like to mention, since we're looking at
22 the diagram, part of the Medical Corps HQ. Later, we're going to discuss
23 the more detailed work of this service, but we had the
24 epidemiological/toxicological service, so can you tell us what the
25 primary task of this service was?
1 A. This service was perhaps the most important service, in addition
2 to the hospitals and the healthcare for the wounded, so this would have
3 been the most important service within the Medical Staff. Its role was
4 to look after the hygiene and the epidemiology situation about
5 prophylaxis and anti-epidemics measures.
6 In the entire area where our units existed and irrespective of
7 the type of the institution, wherever we thought that an infection could
8 break out and epidemics could break out, and whenever and wherever it was
9 necessary to carry out constant surveillance and control. In addition to
10 that, this service was in charge of the ongoing education, because we
11 know, when we're talking about the units of the Croatian Defence Council,
12 that those were people who had never been in the army, or just a few of
13 them were. And when we're talking about a medical staff we have to know
14 that those people knew virtually nothing or very little about war or
15 military healthcare, so at the same time we had to educate all of our
16 staff to bring them up to a high standard.
17 I apologise to the interpreters.
18 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I would like us to look at the next three documents.
19 Let us just locate the things that you have talked about, and let's see
20 what establishment positions are we talking about within the units when
21 it comes to the Medical Corps.
22 Could you please look at 2D927. That's our next document. This
23 is the prescribed establishment of the command of the operation zone
24 which was signed by Mr. Stojic. When we're talking about the operation
25 zone, could you look at position number 30, which should be on page 4 or
1 the penultimate page, both in English and in Croatia. It says at the top
2 "The chief of the Medical Service," and then it does that say "chief,"
3 but it does say "Medical Service." Would that be the person that was a
4 member of the operation zone by establishment?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let's now look at 2D1370. That's our next document. This is a
7 diagram of the establishment of the brigade. On page 4 in the Croatian
8 version and on page 6 in the English version, under item number 8, could
9 you please take a look at what it says there. It says: "The chief of
10 the Medical Service"; would that be correct? This is page 4 or the
11 penultimate page.
12 A. Yes, I can see that.
13 Q. So this is the position in the establishment of the brigade, that
14 would be the person in charge of the Medical Service?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at another document. P566 is the
17 number, and that's another diagram, the diagram of the establishment of a
18 battalion, in both Croatian and English diagrams -- versions, the diagram
19 is on page 2, and under the Logistics Platoon to the very right, it says
20 the "Logistics Platoon," it says "Technical Department" and it also says
21 "Medical Department," and "Quarter-master's Department." Can we agree
22 that we're talking about a department that existed in --
23 A. Yes. I apologise, that's how it should have been. However, due
24 to the lack of personnel and staff, as a rule the positions were not
25 filled, at least not -- they were not filled to the extent that they
1 should have been filled, due to the circumstances.
2 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I'm now going to ask you to look at the following
3 document, which is 2D01540 [Realtime transcript read in error, "2D540"]
4 this should be the following document in your binder.
5 A. I can see it.
6 Q. Very well. This is a document that you gave me during your
7 proofing session. It had been sent to you by Mr. Bruno Stojic, where it
8 says because of the problems with the command and control of the units of
9 the HVO, when it comes to the war healthcare, and in order to resolve the
10 situation which arose as a result of the lack of respect for military
11 organisation "I hereby issue the following order." Could you please
12 explain, how does the order deal with the issue of subordination and the
13 chain of command? And this in military terms, could you please comment?
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just a correction to the transcript. On page 9,
15 line 17, the document number is indicated as 2D540, and I have the
16 feeling it is 2D01540.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You are
18 absolutely right. Thank you very much.
19 Q. 2D01540, I suppose that we all have it and see it. It was just
20 an error in the transcript. I'll bear that in mind.
21 Go ahead, sir.
22 A. I assume that this order was drafted at my own proposal. I can't
23 be sure of that, but I assume. And the reason was the lack of respect in
24 the field of all the things that I've already spoken about. So this is
25 just an explanation and an instruction as to how to proceed. And in a
1 certain way, this confirms what I have just been talking about, and that
2 is that the doctors, at unit levels, were responsible for the healthcare,
3 and their position was that of the assistant chief of the unit, and this
4 is very important for the autonomy and for the most efficient work of the
5 service. It was important for them to have a direct link with the
6 commander, and they were also reporting to the commander of the unit for
7 everything that had to be done in line with the actions of the unit.
8 I repeat, when it comes to the professional part, they were also
9 connected with us, of course.
10 Q. Let's look at item 6, where it says that the chief of the war
11 healthcare of the operations zone for the functioning of
12 wartime healthcare in the operations zone, and in professional sense, he
13 submits reports and is responsible to the Ministry of Defence Sector for
15 A. Yes, this is precisely what I've told you, and in professional
16 terms, he was responsible to the person that we saw in the diagram, the
17 person who was in charge of the service for the healthcare for the
18 wounded in the Healthcare Sector. That's the link.
19 Q. And now when we're talking about the problems of functioning and
20 the chain of command, this is something that we will discuss at a later
21 stage. However, we will keep in mind your answer, where you said that
22 there were problems in the field from time to time.
23 Can we now look at the last document, which is P6379 -- P06379 is
24 the number of the document, the last one in the series about the topic I
25 wanted to introduce to the Tribunal, and show the Tribunal what positions
1 you held and what you did, and that's why I'm showing you the decision on
2 the appointment of the commission for investing war crimes in the
3 territory of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and here you can see
4 your own name. Under number 6, the commission was set up on the 3rd of
5 November, 1993.
6 Mr. Bagaric, did you know that you had been appointed, and did
7 you participate in the work of this commission?
8 A. This is a document that I never saw before, and I don't know
9 whether I was appointed, and the commission never became operational, and
10 I'm not excluding that or maybe instead of me there was somebody else, a
11 colleague of mine who bore the same name and a different family name,
12 which is something that the honourable Judge asked me about, and he was
13 in charge of civilian healthcare. That may also be the case, because I
14 never saw this document before and I never personally participated in the
15 work of this commission.
16 Q. This will suffice. Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Bagaric, within the framework of the Healthcare Sector in the
18 Defence Department, and I'm talking primarily about you, did you submit
19 certain reports? And later on we will see whether anybody reported to
20 you. Did you submit certain reports, who did you report to, and how
21 often? Can you remember that?
22 A. Of course, of course I submitted written reports. I provided
23 certain documents. I drafted certain documents, and those documents were
24 actually prepared by my colleagues who were in charge of certain
25 activities, and those were our reports which we would, from time to time,
1 send to the Defence Department which was later on the Ministry of
2 Defence. However, I also remember that we often sent reports to other
3 addressees as well, to some international organisations, to some
4 institutions who expected information from us in order for them to be
5 able to act and help us, and this is what we did. I can't remember, but
6 I repeat that this was not a regular occurrence, it never happened every
7 seven or every fifteen days. It was more or less twice a month,
8 sometimes even once a month, but I believe that it depended on the
9 situation and on the need at hand.
10 Q. And now I would like to ask you to look at certain documents that
11 speak about that. The first one would be 2D721, which should be the next
12 one in your binder.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This is a report for January 1993, but there is no precise date.
15 Could you please confirm? I can't say whether this is your signature or
16 not. You can confirm that for us, and would you say that this is the
17 type of report that you possibly submitted to various addressees?
18 A. I must admit that this report is not typical of our work. It
19 lacks some numbers and everything else that a heading should contain.
20 However, I do not doubt the correctness and the accuracy of this report,
21 because I can see who signed it. I'm familiar with the signature,
22 although the majority of these documents that were sent from our
23 Healthcare Sector, my name was already indicated as the commander. But I
24 spoke about the high level of collegial relationship, and I trusted my
25 men, and they did not have to wait for my signature to be put on the
1 document. They could sign it themselves. Very often, they would. That
2 would follow telephone consultations if I was not present.
3 Q. Can you please look at the following document, which is 2D739.
4 A. This is --
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may quickly ask a question regarding the
6 previous document.
7 I don't know whether something escaped me, but can you explain
8 the abbreviation "HE"? "Extremely poor HE situation, HE team."
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for your question,
10 Your Honour. This is Hygiene and Epidemiology Service.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You've looked at document 2D739. Again, this is your signature,
14 but it was signed on your behalf. Just briefly tell us -- you already
15 started telling us that people --
16 A. Yes, this is a more typical report, although it is very short.
17 However, this is the kind of document that we sent. This is actually a
18 report for a certain period of time. This one is from the 13th of July,
19 1993, to 2nd August 1993, the report on the functioning of the Healthcare
20 Sector. This could be one of the more regular reports, as it were.
21 Q. Can you please look at the following document. I'm just showing
22 you the reports that the Defence has been able to locate. I don't know
23 whether they're yours or not, and I don't know that there were more of
24 them. The next one is 2D738. That's the next report that we have been
25 able to locate among the documents.
1 A. This is my signature, and this is it, yes. This is a report that
2 I sent.
3 Q. And can we have another, which is 2D714. The period is
4 7 September to 13 September 1993?
5 A. Yes, that's it.
6 Q. Very well, thank you. Mr. Bagaric, on behalf of the Healthcare
7 Sector did you compile reports that could be half annual, annual, and did
8 you send such reports to the Defence Department?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And now can we look at P00128. This is our next document?
11 A. My apologies. Could you repeat?
12 Q. P00128. This should be the next document in your binder after
13 the previous one, after the one that you are now looking at.
14 A. P00 --
15 Q. Yes, you have it in the electronic courtroom, so maybe you can
16 rely on that. I am sure that you will find it easier.
17 Can we now look at page 14 in the Croatian language, which is
18 also page 13 in the English language.
19 At the beginning, you saw the front page and the title, the
20 report on the work --
21 A. I apologise. I can't follow you. I don't have the document and
22 I can't follow you.
23 Q. You don't have it in the binder?
24 A. No, I don't see it.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we ask the assistance of the
1 usher? Can you please assist the witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the number?
3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It's P after the document that you
4 have just looked at, P00128.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 0018 -- oh, sorry, yes, I've got
6 it. I'm sorry, I apologise. Thank you very much, sir.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So this is a report on the work of the HZ-HB for 1992. It's a
9 collective report, and you have noticed yourself that it says "Mostar,
10 March 1992," which is an obvious error because this is a report that was
11 compiled in March 1993. Page 4 in the Croatian and page 13 in the
12 English versions speak about healthcare. It says here, and I'm just
13 going to read or underline some things that you've already spoken about.
14 You said:
15 "In the month of February 1992, we started working on the
16 establish of the Healthcare service. On the 8th of March, 1992, we
17 established the Main Medical Staff headquartered in Tomislavgrad."
18 I am going to ask you to look at the last paragraph, which is the
19 part that you've already spoken about. Can you please skip a few
20 paragraphs here.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My apologies, because it took
22 me some time to check something.
23 Witness, I'd like to come back to the previous document, which is
24 a report for the time-frame. It is document 2D714. It is a report dated
25 September the 13th -- the 7th. A detail struck me. It seems that
1 General Praljak is doing something for one of these sons of
2 Mr. Silajdzic. This Haris Silajdzic, was he a Bosnian?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I don't see in the
4 text what you are referring to.
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can help the
6 witness in the Croatian text. The previous document, 2D714, third
7 paragraph, please, third paragraph on the first page on the last
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Silajdzic has leukemia?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that has nothing to do
13 with Silajdzic, because this is Haris Silajdzia [phoen]. Your Honour,
14 it's a typical situation where, in a way, an intervention was required,
15 and this was often done in order to help a child that needed help.
16 I think that that has nothing to do with Silajdzic. The last name here
17 is Silajdzia. It's a different last name.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you sure? Fine, I was just
20 Let's proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I think, yes. I assume
22 that they are not related.
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that
24 Mr. Praljak will talk about that, too. We had an opportunity, actually,
25 to see another document that pertains to this evacuation. I think we
1 already looked at it in the courtroom, so I am coming back to the report.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can just say one thing.
3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This talks about what I was saying
5 earlier, that the situation in our hospitals was quite serious, and in
6 Rama -- it's a village, we didn't have a hospital there, so Mr. Praljak
7 here intervened quite honorably, because a child cannot be treated in
8 that hospital because it's suffering from leukemia; so this is evidence
9 of what I mentioned before about the problems that we were encountering.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Doctor, I know you have very sensitive about this question that
12 I'm going to put to you right now unfortunately; well, I understand you
13 completely, but I must put the question. This child just happened to be
14 of Bosnian ethnicity, and we can affirm that based on first and last
15 name. I know this is something that makes you angry, because you talk
16 about the actions of medical workers and their principals, who should not
17 pay any attention to that, but I need to ask you about this in the
19 A. Well, I wondered about this, because if in the war we did not pay
20 attention to who was what, we worked together and we treated everyone,
21 then it seems senseless to pay attention to something like that. But I
22 assume that a child with a name such as Haris Silajdzia is a child of
23 Muslim ethnicity.
24 Q. There will be more questions like this, but you must understand
25 that the name and the indication of ethnicity according to the name is
1 something that is not clear to everyone in the courtroom in the same way
2 that it is clear to you.
3 So let us now look at 0128. I indicated on page 14, I said this
4 was actually page 13 in the English, and the last paragraph begins --
5 we're already on page 14 in the English, and it's the passage before last
6 of the section that refers to the health, and it says:
7 "By forming of the Defence Department of the HZ-HB, the General
8 Medical Staff, together with the Service for the Welfare of the Wounded
9 and the Control and Inspection Service, to form our Health Sector."
10 Mr. Bagaric, this is actually what you talked about, about the
11 functioning of the Main Medical Corps headquarters, and that it was part
12 of the Medical or the Health Sector?
13 A. I apologise. Can you tell me what page it is?
14 Q. It's page 14 in the Croatian.
15 A. I don't see page 14. Ah, no, no, excuse me, excuse me. I see it
17 Q. The last paragraph, Mr. Bagaric.
18 A. Yes. Well, actually, that confirms what I said before, with the
19 formation of the Defence Department and the Main General Medical Corps,
20 united with the Service for the Welfare of the Wounded and the Control
21 and Inspection Service, form the Health Sector.
22 Q. The evacuation of wounded and civilians from besieged towns, for
23 example, Jajce was organised, was that one of the important actions of
24 the Health Sector at that time?
25 A. Yes, it was very important, very important. This was a time when
1 the Muslims and Croats from Bosnia defended with full faith the territory
2 and were all together part of the HVO. We're talking about Jajce, but
3 because of the Serb strength, we had to leave the town. And previously
4 these doctors, whom I am proud of and who I mentioned before, the ones
5 who were at the head of these services, personally, in personnel carriers
6 or, rather, in buses; so in improvised transportation that happened to be
7 armoured, pulled out all the wounded from Jajce, including all the
8 Muslims and the Croats, before the fall of Jajce.
9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, we're going to return to this topic a bit later, but
10 now, since it is the time for the break, I would just like to ask you
11 about a piece of information that is significant.
12 Can you tell me when this is happening, the period you're talking
13 about, the fall of Jajce?
14 A. Well, I have a problem really with numbers, with time. This is
15 something that is quite condensed to me, this wartime period. I think
16 this was in late 1992, so it was probably September or October when Jajce
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bagaric.
19 Your Honours, can we now go on a break and then before we move on
20 to our next topic.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Before we resume, Mr. Witness, the Chamber would like you to
1 answer perhaps at a slower pace, because the interpreters have problems.
2 We know that you are a very good speaker, but please try and control the
3 speed of your delivery.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I'm going to ask you -- well, earlier we saw a
7 report for the first six months of 1992. Can you look at document P4699.
8 That should be the next document in your binder. It's a report of the
9 HVO about the work for the period from January to June 1993. I'm going
10 to ask you -- yes, 1993 -- to look at page 29 in the Croatian, and that
11 is page 19 in the English, and just tell me when you've found it.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This is where the report begins its section on the Health
14 Service. I'm going to go to page 30. It's a large report. Everyone can
15 look. I'm going to focus on the third paragraph on page 30, and that is
16 the last paragraph on page 19 in the English, and it says:
17 "At the moment, the greatest problem is the means of transport,
18 primarily off-road vehicles, medical vehicles, which are practically
19 nonexistent but which are essential for the transport of the wounded."
20 And then it says this problem is particularly evident in the
21 Northern Herzegovina and Central Bosnia sectors, and then it goes on to
22 talk about the lack of professional medical staff.
23 In terms of the means of transport, you emphasised this here as
24 one of the problems in your report, it is one of the problems that is
25 mentioned first, can you please tell Their Honours what the situation was
1 in terms of the transport vehicles?
2 A. Well, this primarily refers to vehicles -- emergency medical
3 vehicles, ambulances, which were meant for the units in the field to
4 transport the wounded from inaccessible terrain, and that is why it says
5 here explicitly that these are all-terrain vehicles. But generally there
6 was a constant shortage of vehicles for the transport and care of our
8 Q. Can we now look at page 31, paragraph 2, and in the English that
9 is paragraph 4 on page 20. It talks about the Epidemiological and
10 Toxicological Service, which you said was part of the Main Medical Corps
11 HQ, and there is a sentence in the middle of the paragraph which says
12 that the main task of this service is the prevention of infectious
13 diseases in the -- in units of the armed forces of the HZ-HB. The
14 training programme included the following: medical inspection of the
15 water supply; medical inspection of food; inspection of military
16 accommodation, both in barracks and at the front; medical inspection of
17 refugees and displaced persons, with the aim of preventing the spread of
18 contagious diseases amongst the armed forces of the HZ-HB; the disposal
19 of waste, both in barracks and at the front. And it goes on to say
20 tetanus vaccination, implementation of DDD measures, active search for
21 infected patients and those with signs of infection, a military and
22 medical approach, and a unique wartime medical doctrine in the approach
23 to infectious diseases.
24 Mr. Bagaric, does this actually represent a description of the
25 assignments of the Infectious, Epidemiological and Toxicological Service?
1 A. Yes, this is a preventive medical healthcare sector, and there is
2 an important sentence in the continuation of the text. The important
3 aspect of this matter is that:
4 "Besides oral instructions during medical inspections of troops
5 before their departure for the front, heads of medical brigades were
6 given adequate instructions by this service."
7 Q. I'm going to ask you now to look at another report, and this is a
8 report for the second half of 1993, from July to December. This is
9 P7419. What I would like to ask you about is actually on page 2. No,
10 I'm sorry, I apologise, the Health Sector actually is dealt with on
11 page 6.
12 I would like to draw your attention to a detail from this report.
13 In the English, this is on page 3, the fifth sentence from the bottom,
14 where it says:
15 "One of the most serious problems in wartime medical care," and
16 that's the abbreviation "RZ, Ratno Strasno [phoen]," am I correct, "is a
17 shortage of personnel. A considerable number of medical staff left the
18 HR-HB at the beginning of the war and mostly got jobs in the Republic of
19 Croatia. Even though the main Medical Corps headquarters did their
20 utmost to have them return, they were not very successful in that."
21 Mr. Bagaric, is what is written in this report for the
22 July/December 1993 period something that could have applied to the entire
23 wartime period?
24 A. Well, a very brief clarification first.
25 In 1992, we were joining the service or the Medical Corps on a
1 volunteer basis exclusively, but in time, as the war went on, more and
2 more people were leaving, dropping out, and they were leaving primarily
3 for Croatia; so we really did everything that we could, in talking to
4 them, trying to persuade them, to explain to those who left, but we were
5 not successful in keeping most of these cadres. And this is something
6 that does apply throughout the whole wartime period, both for Croats and
7 for Bosniaks.
8 Q. Can we look at another document on this topic, and this is
9 2D1536. It's the next document in your binder. It is an order by
10 Mr. Boban where, as we can see, it says on the 3rd of June, 1992.
11 Actually, we were dealing with a report for the end of 1993, and now we
12 are returning to the 3rd of June, 1992, where an order is issued to the
13 municipal staffs of the HVO, where it says:
14 "All medical personnel, except those in the Grude Hospital who
15 worked in Mostar, must immediately return to their posts. All of those
16 who do not follow this command must be fired immediately and criminal
17 charges must be brought against them."
18 Mr. Bagaric, we can see from this that at least from June 1992
19 until the end of 1993, this was a prominent problem, at least pursuant to
20 this document; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct, but this is a particular situation here.
22 We're talking about Mostar. At the time, I was not in Mostar, and at the
23 request of probably one of the commanders of the Mostar Hospital, the
24 order on this was signed so that people should return to Mostar from
25 neighbouring towns in order to be able to provide medical services.
1 Q. Now we're moving briefly to another topic which does deserve more
2 time, but I'm going to ask you to actually just go through it briefly.
3 Mr. Bagaric, can you please tell me whether the Health Sector
4 conducted training in the application of international humanitarian law?
5 A. As part of the preventive medical work, on one hand, and, on the
6 other hand, the section that was called the Sector for Information and
7 Investigation or Research, sent out these brochures that talk about first
8 aid and also instructs about the implementation or application of
9 international humanitarian law. I saw quite frequently that this was
10 used by the commanders as well, the most responsible people who were at
11 the head of the HVO, because I did see a few commands to that effect, a
12 few orders to that effect.
13 Q. Let us now look at 2D751. That would be the next document after
14 this one. This is a -- is this the brochure that you are talking about?
15 A. Yes, precisely that one, or perhaps it was a similar one. There
16 were others, similar ones.
17 Q. Can we have a clean transcript? You're saying it's this brochure
18 or similar brochures? You need to wait for my question to be recorded
19 first. So this particular brochure or similar ones were distributed to
20 members in the Health Sector who were providing medical services; did I
21 understand you correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's look at the next document. This is P2050. It's an order
24 signed by Mr. Stojic and Mr. Petkovic of the 24th of April, and it states
25 that there is a need, while providing medical health, to ensure that at
1 all times your doctors and medical workers' approach to any wounded,
2 regardless of whether it's a civilian or a member of the enemy
3 formations, all civilians and all commanders should be treated
4 exclusively pursuant to international conventions and regulations. This
5 was sent to the commanders of operational zones and all other commanders.
6 You said you had the opportunity to see in the field that certain
7 commanders also issued orders like this. Did you also mean this kind of
8 order as well?
9 A. Yes, that is precisely what I was thinking of. This is one of
10 that kind of order.
11 Q. Mr. Bagaric, now I'm going to ask you to be as brief as possible,
12 to be as efficient as possible. I'm not going to say faster, at the
13 expense of quality, but we are going to talk about a topic that concerns
14 reports that were arriving from the field.
15 Let me ask you, first, did you receive reports about the state of
16 the Medical Corps in the HZ-HB? I emphasised that already when we were
17 looking at your monthly reports and saw some summary results.
18 JUDGE PRANDLER: Ms. Nozica, I would like to ask you to -- just
19 for a minute to say the following: that on line, I believe - what was
20 it - 11, line 11, "all civilians and all commanders should be treated
21 exclusively pursuant to international conventions and regulations," I
22 believe in this case it is not commanders but all civilians and
23 combatants. It is what you might have said. So instead of "commanders"
24 here, it should be "combatants," in accordance with the language of the
25 relevant international conventions.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may complement. In the document, actually
3 it is civilians and prisoners, but I could not recall what you have said
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was reading from the
6 document, which is P2050. In the second paragraph, it says: "According
7 to civilians and prisoners," so these are the two categories. This is
8 exactly what the document says.
9 Very well. Thank you very much for your intervention.
10 Q. Your Honours, Mr. Bagaric, we're coming back to the topic of
11 reports that you may have observed about the situation with the medical
12 care in the territory of the HZ-HB.
13 A. Yes, we did receive reports more or less often which depended on
14 the area from which they came, and it depended on the situation,
16 Q. I'm now going to show you a certain number of reports, but before
17 that, could you please a summary assessment of those reports? Can you
18 please tell us what they contain? Was there a template? Did the reports
19 follow the template, or whether they were sometimes totally off the
20 template, if it existed?
21 I apologise, I apologise.
22 A. At first, that was done as needed, without any templates to
23 follow. However, later on there was, indeed, a template introduced, and
24 that template was respected, in a sense. However, there was a long
25 period of time when we received reports about our dead and wounded; the
1 names, the family names, where they were wounded, when they died.
2 Q. And all those reports and summaries, did they result in summary
3 reports which provided a total number of wounded and dead?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. I know that because of the lack of any
5 regular communication with every unit, we certainly did not manage to
6 compile comprehensive reports. However, that was done and finally
7 reproduced summary reports in order to be able to follow the situation on
8 the ground and plan the Healthcare Service accordingly.
9 Q. Can we now please look at 2D00222, which should be the following
10 document in your binder. This document or, rather, these documents that
11 I'm going to show you follow a chronological order which will help us see
12 what was happening during that period of time, and in this particular
13 report the HVO Brigade Eugen Kvaternik from Bugojno, on the 26th of
14 January, 1993, provides a list of wounded combatants in the territory of
15 Bugojno from 24 January 1993. Later on, we will see what happened --
16 what later happened in Bugojno.
17 And now can we just look at the list from 1 through 20, and you
18 will see the names of that particular brigade which were of Croatian and
19 Muslim origins. If you look at the names, can you confirm this?
20 A. Yes. You can see that a large number of those people were
21 Muslims, Bosniaks, and still members of the HVO.
22 Q. Can we now look at 2D98, which should be the next document in
23 your binder. This document was sent from Vitez. The date is 19th of
24 April. It was signed by Mr. Drago Dzambas, the chief of the Medical
25 Service of the Operational Zone Central Bosnia; wouldn't that be correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it is a report that we will dwell upon for a little while,
3 and it says here:
4 "From April 17 (from 1100 hours) until today, April 19th, the
5 situation in the territory of Central Bosnia has been rapidly
7 In the first part, reference is made to the attacks on the BiH
8 Army in the municipalities of Vitez, Zen [phoen], Busovaca, in the places
9 called Kakanj, Konjic, Fojnica, and I repeat, Kakanj, Konjic, Fojnica,
10 and also Zenica, Kiseljak and Kresevo, and the following paragraph says:
11 "At the triage war hospital in Nova Bila (Franciscan Hospital)
12 from the beginning until today, there have been 100 wounded of whom three
13 people died at the hospital. The number of fallen combatants and
14 civilians in the territory of Central Bosnia ranges from 60 to 65
16 And the following paragraph, I'm reading from the second
17 sentence, it says:
18 "We are especially asking you to protest with the UNPROFOR,
19 because they transport Muslim soldiers to Travnik, they transport
20 medicines and medical supplies to them, and we, on the other hand, are
21 unable transport our own wounded to the hospital."
22 Later on, we will go back to the hospital in Nova Bila and talk
23 about that, but at the moment could you please explain to the
24 Trial Chamber under what conditions the hospital operated, and could you
25 please say something about the objection of the chief of the Medical
1 Corps of Central Bosnia about the unequal treatment extended by UNPROFOR
2 to the Croatian wounded, on the one hand, and the Muslim wounded, on the
4 A. First of all, both -- the hospital in Nova Bila was a hospital
5 that existed in a very typical war environment. It was housed in a
6 Franciscan church. The patients who would be brought there were put on
7 church benches that were used as beds. Very few people provided surgical
8 services with very obsolete equipment, unfortunately. This report here
9 that we're looking at primarily concerns the problem with the
10 organisation of the service and caring for the wounded under such
11 circumstances, and I would say that this person is not requesting but
12 imploring somebody to help. Who is he imploring with? Everybody. We
13 were just one of the addressees. Before that, he must have spoken to the
14 international organisations and he must have addressed them as well.
15 In this particular case, I can't say whether my colleague,
16 Dzambas, was right when he said that UNPROFOR provided unequal help and
17 treated the Croatian side unfairly. However, I can speak from my own
18 experience and say that during the war, the international organisations
19 disappointed me. I had expected a more powerful response, without any
20 strings attached. However, very often, when I personally asked for their
21 help and assistance, they always wanted to strike a balance, they always
22 wanted to see whether the other side received the same, and that's why
23 the help was very often late, particularly from the
24 International Red Cross and other international organisations.
25 Still, one has to say that we have to be very grateful and
1 recognise those people who came to help us under such dire circumstances.
2 Without them, the situation would have been even worse, because from them
3 we could only receive help.
4 Q. When we're talking about a hospital in Bila, could you please
5 tell us what the situation was like? We see that the situation was like
6 that on the 19th of April, 1993, but can you tell us for how long the
7 hospital existed and for how long it operated under such circumstances
8 existing in an enclave without any possibility of anybody else accessing
10 A. It was a very sad story which lasted from approximately this time
11 to the moment when the Washington Peace Accords were signed, and that
12 was, I believe, in 1994, in the month of March. Throughout all that
13 time, the hospital in Nova Bila was completely blocked and encircled.
14 They could not receive any assistance. They could not transport their
15 wounded anywhere. They could only be air-lifted. That was the only way
16 for the wounded to be transported.
17 Q. We will -- I would like us to proceed. We'll go back to the
18 hospital. I know that hospital is very important, and it was a very
19 important topic of your contacts with international organisations. We
20 will come back to that and talk about it a bit further.
21 Can we please now look at 2D779. That's the next document in
22 your binder. This is another report which was signed by Zrinko Brekalo
23 Dr. Zrinko Brekalo and he's requesting certain drugs and medicines, and
24 then he provides a list of the civilians who were killed in Trusina on
25 the 16th of April. You know Mr. Brekalo, don't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that one of the ways how you received information from the
4 A. Yes, precisely.
5 Q. This is a story about Konjic, i.e., about Kostajnica. And just
6 for the transcript, I would like to say this document has two pages. The
7 first one is 2D52 -- and the second 52 -- 2D520240, and the second page
8 is 2D520241. And the second page does not belong to the document,
9 actually. The ERN number of the document which we took from the
10 Prosecutor, and the ERN numbers are in sequence, but the second page does
11 not belong to the documents. So when we tender this document for
12 admission, we will ask for the admission of only the first page.
13 Witness, I'm going to now show the next document, which is 2D707.
14 Could you please look at the document for us. This is another report.
15 Have you located it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This is another report which was signed by Toni Kolak. As it
18 says here, he was the chief of the Service for the Healthcare of the
19 Wounded, and he sent this report to you; and the report speaks about the
20 negotiations regarding the transport and protection of the wounded and
21 the frail during the war operations in the territories of Konjic, and the
22 date is 9 of May.
23 Just briefly, Mr. Bagaric, could you tell us something about the
24 report, which is very precise? Could you please explain what kind of
25 negotiations are discussed here?
1 A. This is a very important document and a very important moment
2 during the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims, Bosniaks in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is very closely tied with the previous report,
4 which speaks of the 16th April or one day before. So if we remember,
5 that coincided with the killing of Bosniak Muslims in Ahmic [as
6 interpreted] and the Croats in Kostajnica.
7 As a healthcare service, at the request and upon their
8 implorations [as interpreted], because they were completely blocked in
9 Konjic, we tried to talk to the International Red Cross and to organise
10 the transport of all the wounded, i.e., those who needed further
11 assistance. On several occasions, I believe on two occasions, we went
12 down there to Jablanica in the organisation of the International Red
13 Cross. However, the Muslim Bosniak authorities did not allow us passage
14 and access to the wounded. We were not allowed access, and the
15 International Red Cross was not allowed access. And then I asked
16 Mr. Petkovic, present here in the courtroom, and asked him whether we
17 could organise or talk to Mr. Morales, the respective of the Spanish
18 Battalion of the UNPROFOR - I'm very grateful to him to this very day - I
19 wanted to ask him for a meeting at a higher level in order to be able to
20 organise a transport of our men. Owing to all who are present here today
21 and Mr. Morales, the meeting was indeed organised. Mr. Morales organised
22 the meeting with Mr. Halilovic, who was the commander of the BiH Army,
23 and Mr. Petkovic, the commander of the Main Staff of the HVO. I and my
24 colleagues, doctors, we were involved in the meeting, and the objective
25 was to achieve the objective that I've spoken about. And I was at the
1 meeting in Konjic, at the military base there. Mr. Morales also came to
2 the meeting. He was the commander at an even higher UNPROFOR level, and
3 we achieved a gentleman's agreement that made me really happy at the time
4 and very proud also. I was happy because I believed that we would be
5 able to help those who needed our help the most, and I was also very
6 proud for our own participation, the participation of the HVO headed by
7 Mr. Petkovic.
8 Mr. Petkovic was very professional and he told them, in very
9 professional terms, Let's see what the problem is and how we can remove
10 the problem. Then there were accusations on the part of the Muslim side.
11 They tried to accuse us of various obstructions, but they were the ones
12 who were putting obstructions in our way, and everybody was clear on
13 that, the representatives of the international community and everybody
14 else. It was finally agreed that we would take three different
15 digressions in order to transport our wounded and to enable the Bosnian
16 Army to tour the points that were of some interest to them.
17 So when we headed off to the field, I was personally in the
18 column, i.e., I was Mr. Petkovic's escort, and we went to Sovici.
19 Q. Mr. Bagaric, can I please draw your attention to something. I
20 would like to have a very clear transcript. It says here in the middle
21 of the first page, as you said it yourself, "it was agreed that we should
22 proceed in three directions," and those directions were Konjic,
23 Zaslivlje, Zabrdje --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- Stari Grad, Ostrozac, Celebici, Klis, Kostajnica, Buscak,
1 Trusina, Butorovic Polje, Obriverca [phoen], and Sovici and Doljani, and
2 all the prisons there. The report is very precise, but I would like to
3 ask you this: Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you managed to visit
4 and what you didn't manage to visit of all the things that you had
5 planned to visit.
6 And just for the transcript, I can notice that not all the places
7 have been recorded properly, but later on I will dictate the names of the
8 places that have not been recorded.
9 Go on, sir.
10 A. Mr. Halilovic wanted us to go to Sovici because he had accused
11 the HVO for the alleged crimes that had been committed there, and we
12 insisted on going to the place where the crime did happen, and that was
13 Trusina and the part between Sajnica [phoen] and Buscak, and so on and so
14 forth; and the third direction was Zabrdje and Zaslivlje and so on and so
15 forth. We managed to go to Sovici. We were in Sovici, and to my great
16 satisfaction and to the satisfaction of everybody in the group, there had
17 been no crimes committed against the civilians, and this was confirmed by
18 the Muslims who were detained. And when we were there, there was nothing
19 there. And as for the other two directions, we didn't take any of them
20 because the BiH Army had blocked the convoy, the UNPROFOR convoy headed
21 by Morales and forced him to return to Mostar.
22 In other words, on our part, we returned without our business
23 completed because we did not go to Zabrdje or Zaslivlje or Trusina or
24 anywhere near there, although that was our main objective and that was
25 the reason we had asked for the meeting in the first place.
1 Q. You said that you didn't go to Zaslivlje. Can you repeat, for
2 the purpose of the transcript, where you didn't go?
3 A. We did not go to the other remaining directions, Zabrdje and
4 Zaslivlje. That's that section and the other section is Kostajnica and
5 these villages where the crimes actually took place, the one referred to
6 in the previous report by my colleague, a doctor.
7 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber at the time what was
8 happening in Turija, Zaslivlje and Zabrdje, where you did go, where you
9 wanted to go. Who was in that area? Did go in that area? Turija,
10 Zabrdje and Zaslivlje.
11 A. In that area, there were Croats who all stayed. Actually, they
12 were in the Konjic enclave, but that was a separate enclave. They
13 happened to be in a sandwich with Bosnian forces on one side and the Army
14 of Republika Srpska on the other side, and I think that later they
15 managed to get out through the Serbian side somehow.
16 Q. Can you now please look at document 2D74 --
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.
18 Witness, I would like to ask you a question of you. In the
19 course of this last lengthy period of your answer, you have spoken of
20 "our wounded, our wounded." Could you explain to the Chamber what you
21 mean by "our wounded"?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We had a report from these
23 villages, Trusina, Sajonica [phoen], Kostajnica, that there were many
24 wounded members of the HVO and civilians there, and because of them we
25 asked this meeting to be organised in the first place. We didn't manage
1 to get to them and bring them out. That's what it's about.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Your answer, Mr. Bagaric, leads me to conclude
3 that they were persons of Muslim ethnicity that you were concerned with
4 here, the wounded that were members of the HVO; is that correct?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this specific case
6 I used the term "our," and perhaps that confused you and you're, in a
7 way, not understanding. In this case, the wounded were exclusively
8 members of the Croatian Defence Council and Croats who were living there,
9 civilians, so the wounded were all the people that we could reach and
10 treat. But in this particular case, the wounded did also happen all to
11 be Croats.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I do not agree that I was confused,
13 actually. I had supposed that this was the case, but I wanted to have it
14 clear so that we are not doing guess-work. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have been warned
17 correctly that on page 54, on line 22, the word "wounded" is missing when
18 the witness was talking about that. He was talking about wounded members
19 of the HVO and civilians. The word "wounded" is missing, and that is why
20 it doesn't quite make sense. Anyway, that was the task of the mission
21 the way the witness described it.
22 Can we look at the next document, 2D745, please.
23 Q. Have you found it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is a report of the same date about the humanitarian convoy's
1 trip to Klisa and Vrci? Is it the same trip? Mr. Tugomir Gveric, chief
2 of the Medical headquarters of the HZ-HB is writing this report. Can you
3 tell us what the difference is between the two reports?
4 A. The only difference is the trip that the two doctors went to.
5 The two of them, Kolak and Tugomir Gveric went in two different
6 directions. I went in the third direction, in the third destination. We
7 did manage to complete our assignments, both to the satisfaction of the
8 Bosnian commanders and us, me as a doctor, but the other two trips we
9 were not able to complete. We didn't manage to reach the destination.
10 That is why they wrote two different reports, but essentially the reports
11 cover the same events.
12 Q. When we're talking about reports from the field, let us look at
13 document 2D1296. That would be the next document. This is a document of
14 the 9th of June, signed once again by the chief of the Medical Corps,
15 Mr. Drago Dzambas, and he says in the first sentence of the first
16 paragraph that Travnik fell. The second paragraph talks about the
17 hospital in Nova Bila which is operating above its capacity and that 213
18 people were wounded over a period of five days. It talks about a
19 shortage of oxygen, again about the evacuation in Split, and it talks
20 about the drama happening in Travnik. It also talks about wounded
21 doctors and that two doctors, Valjan and --
22 A. Valjan?
23 Q. Yes, excuse me, Valjan and Stipinov. Their outlook is uncertain.
24 Can you please comment on this document, Mr. Bagaric?
25 A. This is one of the typical reports that was sent from the
1 Nova Bila Hospital which I referred to earlier. This specifically refers
2 to the events related to the expulsion of the Croatian civilian
3 population from Travnik and the take-over of the whole town by the
4 Bosniaks or by the Muslim Army. The report covers a difficult situation
5 in a very small area, the overall situation, and especially in terms of
6 the treatment of the wounded in the Nova Bila Hospital.
7 Q. Can you please look at the next document, 2D569. It's a report
8 from the 3rd Brigade in Fojnica from the 2nd of July, referring to your
9 order. It's being sent to the chief of the Medical Services,
10 Drago Dzambas. The chief of the medical brigade of that brigade talks --
11 battalion talks about the number of wounded and the number of soldiers
12 killed, as well as the number of civilians who were killed and wounded:
13 99 soldiers were wounded, 46 soldiers were killed. Can you tell us
14 whether similar or this report reached you? It says, at the top of the
15 document, that it was being sent to the Defence Department, to the
16 Health Sector or Medical Sector.
17 A. I apologise, but what is your question?
18 Q. Well, are these the reports that would also reach you from the
20 A. Yes. I think this refers to the Fojnica situation, something
21 similar to what previously happened in Travnik, so this is a Central
22 Bosnian mixed population town with a majority Croatian population, where
23 what happened happened, and we could see there was a large number of
24 victims, a lot of suffering, and then Bosniak Muslims overran that whole
25 area and the civilians had to leave.
1 Q. Now we have 2D00461. Have you found the document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The document is signed by Mr. Ivo Sandrk on the behalf of the HVO
4 Medical Staff, and also the name of Mr. Siljeg is there. The date is the
5 22nd of July. What it says here is:
6 "I'm addressing you maybe for the last time ..."
7 And you can see who the letter is addressed to, the UN British
8 Battalion, Major Bins, Captain Holden and it says:
9 "I am addressing you maybe for the last time so that we can
10 jointly try to do everything to save the lives of hundreds of wounded
11 children, soldiers, and civilians from Bugojno. Already tomorrow, such
12 help may not be needed."
13 Can you tell us about that situation in Bugojno and can you
14 comment on this document, please?
15 A. For the third time, we are seeing the same kind of thing
16 happening, in this case in Bugojno, because of a high concentration of
17 Bosnia Muslim forces, people who were also expelled from other places in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as army members, people who were armed. The
19 Croats in Bugojno got into a very difficult situation, and this is a very
20 sad story of Bugojno which actually did -- was completely cleansed of
21 Croats. Unfortunately, the crimes that took place there were never
22 punished, as far as I know.
23 Q. Mr. Bagaric, we saw the situation previously in Travnik. Then we
24 saw the situation in Fojnica, and now we're seeing the situation in
25 Bugojno. I know what you are trying to say, but I think for the purposes
1 of the transcript and the Trial Chamber, it would be good for you to say
2 explicitly who occupied those places and who expelled the Croats from
3 those towns.
4 A. Unfortunately, this was a time of the full escalation of the
5 conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Croatian
6 Defence Council, and these towns were all entirely captured by the
7 armija, the Bosnian Muslim side; and those who were expelled from all
8 three of these towns were exclusively or in the majority of cases Croats
9 who, unfortunately, specifically in Bugojno, made up 40 percent of the
10 population; maybe not 40 percent, but the ratio between Croats and
11 Muslims was more or less equal. And then the Croatian population was
12 completely expelled. And despite all efforts at this moment, I think
13 right now there is 6.000 or 7.000 -- a population of 6.000 or 7.000
14 Croats there, compared to the previous figure of 30.000 before the war,
15 which I think is still quite a considerable success in getting those
16 people to come back, these Croats who are there now who managed to
17 return. At one point in time, practically all of the Croats were
19 Q. Now, from this previous document, which is an exhibit and seen
20 before in the courtroom, which actually is a request for help in the
21 evacuation of the wounded, can we now please look at the next document?
22 This is 2D465. Have you found it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This was signed by Mr. Sandrk, and the document is being sent to
25 you. It also focuses on the need to evacuate the wounded; is that
2 A. Yes. It refers to all the wounded, because there was a hospital
3 there where both Bosnian Muslims and Croats were being treated up until
4 the time of the conflict.
5 Q. Can you please look at page 2 of this document where this
6 actually is stated:
7 "I have just arrived from the Bugojno War Hospital in the
8 presence of the UNPROFOR and the observers. An agreement was reached to
9 evacuate the same. All wounded members of the HVO and wounded civilians
10 are going to be evacuated to Gornji Vakuf."
11 Already he is talking about the beginning of this evacuation; am
12 I correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you please look at document 2D467 on the same topic. This
15 document was also signed by the chief of the HVO SIK, Dr. Ivo Sandrk, and
16 the document talks about the evacuation of the wounded from the HVO
17 hospital in Bugojno according to the days. Mr. Bagaric, can you confirm
19 A. Yes, this is obvious.
20 Q. Can you please look at document 2D726. 2D726.
21 A. I have to take a different binder now.
22 Q. Yes, yes. Go ahead.
23 Very well. Have you found it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, this is sent from Busovaca. The documents are arranged in
1 chronological order. This is a report of the 1st of August, 1993 from
2 the chief of the medical corps of the Nikola Subic Zrinski Brigade,
3 sending information about persons killed and wounded, both civilians; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Can you look at the next document. This is 2D728. It's a report
7 of the 4th of August, from the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in Novi Travnik,
8 from the 4th of August we said, and it mentions the number of killed
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. It also says that two members of the brigade were killed by the
12 Serbian aggressor. The next document is more or less the same. That is
13 2D729. Mr. Bagaric, this is also a report of the Vitez Brigade service,
14 the chief of the Medical Corps. He's sending a report on the number of
15 persons killed and wounded, and the report is dated the 5th of August,
16 1993. You received reports like this one, didn't you?
17 A. Yes, reports like this, or similar ones, yes.
18 Q. The next document would be 2D00730. It's a little bit different.
19 It's a request for the transport of wounded by a helicopter. It's signed
20 by Mr. Dzambas. It's a request for evacuation from the military hospital
21 in Bila. Mr. Bagaric, we did talk about the military hospital. Can you
22 tell us briefly about the number of requests for evacuations that were
23 carried out?
24 A. Well, we can see numerous requests here, but I know that these
25 requests occurred on a daily basis, almost, and they indicate actually
1 the gravity of the situation that we were in, especially the Croats of
2 Central Bosnia; in Nova Bila in this instance.
3 Q. I'm going to ask you now to look at -- Mr. Bagaric, perhaps it
4 would seem excessive, but was there a different way of evacuating these
5 people, other than by helicopter?
6 A. Well, it's generally known that the transport links with Central
7 Bosnia were severed because of the conflict between the armija and the
8 HVO; so I, as the chief of the Medical Corps, or the commander, rather,
9 of the Medical Corps of the HVO, was very concerned to receive requests
10 like this every day for assistance, for help, for evacuation, to do this
11 or that, but we exclusively depended on helicopter flights, which had to
12 be approved by UNPROFOR, and this is why we had to send them out to
13 UNPROFOR and to the commanders -- or receive them also from commanders
14 and were sending them on to UNPROFOR.
15 Q. Well, Mr. Bagaric, let's look at another report now. This is
16 2D712. It's a list, actually, of those wounded and killed. This is a
17 list. It says "The Defence Department, the Healthcare Sector." I would
18 kindly ask you to tell us this: Were these lists made based on the
19 previous lists and reports?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. With a remark that we also have the names of the persons who were
22 wounded and killed here. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, how were
23 these lists compiled?
24 A. What I find unusual in the document is the fact that I can see
25 the date here, the 1st of August, 1993, and down there is -- there are
1 different dates; the 2nd, the 4th, the 5th of August. So I don't know --
2 I don't understand how this happened. Does this mean that the top date
3 is erroneous or not? I am a bit confused.
4 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I'm asking an explanation from you, sir.
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. That question is asked and answered.
6 The witness says he doesn't understand. I don't understand either,
7 Ms. Nozica, what we are to do with all this, these numbers of wounded. I
8 frankly do not see the pertinent or relevance of these documents to our
9 case. Perhaps you can clarify. They're also rather repetitious, as we
10 have had that before.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm asking the witness
12 about what he did in the sector, and the witness told us what the sector
13 did. The Health Sector did receive reports from the field. They
14 forwarded those reports, and I'm asking the witness exactly what you have
15 just said. The witness said that he's confused, and I'm asking the
16 witness whether he can explain the source of confusion.
17 Q. It says here "the Health Sector." Maybe the witness can tell us
18 whether this was, indeed, done in the Healthcare Sector. If he think it
19 wasn't, then I'll skip this document.
20 A. Just a minute. Can you please bear with me.
21 Your Honours, I am not doubting the accuracy of the data, which
22 means that on the 1st of August, a certain number of people were wounded,
23 and then some others on the 2nd of August. I believe that this is
24 correct. However, I am puzzled by the date up there. I believe that we
25 probably had collected the data, our service did it, and then our service
1 compiled a summary report, and I believe that the previous date was
2 retained by mistake. It's really confusing, I must say.
3 Q. Mr. Bagaric, which service was in charge of compiling the data?
4 You're saying "the service." Which service was that?
5 A. I said that within our Medical Staff, we had a department or a
6 service -- I don't know how to call it. For a while it was "department"
7 and then it was a service, the Information and Documentation Service it
8 was called, and that service collected information from the field in
9 order to be able to inform anybody about the situation or document the
10 situation in the field. In other words, this served for us to be able to
11 monitor the overall situation with the healthcare in the territory.
12 Q. Can you please look at the following document, 2D503. This is a
13 document which was compiled in a similar way. Again, it was headed by
14 the Healthcare centre, but the date is different.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to put a question with regard to
16 the previous document. Dr. Bagaric, I don't know if you know, but I
17 assume you do, are all these people reported here Croats on the list?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not. I did not check.
19 I can do it, if you wish me to, I can even speculate, but I don't think
20 so, no.
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can you tell us how the names were found? Who
22 set up the list originally?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since we had communication with our
24 doctors in the field, and they were the first source of information
25 because they were in immediate contact with anybody who was wounded or
1 they learned about anybody who had been killed, they maintained records
2 which they forwarded to us. So it went from one doctor to another. I
3 assume -- or, rather, I don't assume, I know it for a fact that doctors
4 also submitted information to their respective commanders in their own
5 units. For example, here it would be the brigades or the military
6 districts, and so on and so forth.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: There is a section entitled -- subsection
8 "Soldiers killed." Would that include soldiers of the ABiH?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose -- or, rather, I'm
10 convinced that this is not the case. The chiefs of the medical services
11 in the HVO units were the ones that followed the HVO units, and this
12 concerns primarily HVO members.
13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Right, thank you. That's quite convincing also.
14 And there are two civilians, Nametak and Kresic. To me, by now, it
15 sounds rather like Croatian than Muslim names, but you know much better
16 than I do, of course.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Which page is that?
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The last page.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Dead civilians, yes. Kresic,
20 Marina, I assume she's Croat. And as for Mija Nametak, I'm not quite
21 sure. I can't be sure. I don't really know.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Bagaric --
25 A. I believe that what I'm going to say is very important, if I may.
1 Q. Go on, then.
2 A. It says here on the 7th of August, 1993, or the 6th of August,
3 1993, we have here Croats, if this is what we are going to be looking at,
4 we have Croats and also Muslim Bosniaks, and we also have their
5 diagnosis. This points to the fact that only the doctors could compile
6 the reports of this kind, because who else could have been able to
7 determine the diagnosis or the diagnostic situation after the wounding?
8 And I believe that this was important, and I apologise for the
10 Q. To follow up on His Honour Trechsel's question, let's look at the
11 page where it says "Mirko Golemac", and then on the 2nd of August, it
12 says: "Senad Saric," 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, are you following me, 10, 11,
13 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. Would all these be Bosniak names?
14 A. I suppose so, yes. I think so.
15 Q. Mr. Bagaric, when it comes to the wounded, were those people
16 treated at the HVO hospitals, regardless of their ethnic background?
17 A. Absolutely, absolutely, regardless of their ethnic background or
18 their affiliation to a unit. They all enjoy the same treatment.
19 Q. Just a brief comment about the following document, 2D503. Is
20 that the same kind of report?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Bagaric, can we look at 2D761.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This is a report on the negotiations with the Muslim side
25 regarding the evacuation of the wounded in Medjugorje, and the date is
1 1st September through 6 September?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It says in the first sentence that:
4 "At 1000 hours on 1 September 1993, in the Spanish Battalion base
5 in Medjugorje, negotiations started about the implementation of the
6 agreement on the evacuation of the seriously sick and wounded persons
7 from Nova Bila and Mostar ..."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And at the Sarajevo Airport. This was signed on the 1st of
10 August, 1993, General Petkovic, Delic, and this was testified to by
11 Mr. Briquemont. Do you know anything about this meeting, Mr. Bagaric?
12 A. It was a long time ago, but I am convinced that I personally
13 attended that meeting in Sarajevo, if this was signed in Sarajevo. I
14 apologise. Does it say anywhere?
15 Q. Yes, in Sarajevo.
16 A. The meeting took place before the date that is indicated here as
17 the 7th of September. I was personally present at the meeting, because
18 Mr. Petkovic had invited me to attend as the chief of the Medical Service
19 of the HVO, to visit Sarajevo to attend the meeting. That was at the
20 time when Sarajevo was fully encircled. And I had an occasion to ask
21 Mr. Delic to organise something, and this is how I remember the meeting.
22 I remember it for the wounded and for what I was asked by Mr. Delic to
23 do; and that is to organise a meeting between the head of the Medical
24 Service of the BH Army and me personally, because I thought if we were to
25 establish good communication, then our wounded, irrespective of their
1 affiliation, would enjoy a much better chance for healthcare, for
2 transport, and all the other benefits. However, I remember that
3 Mr. Delic was not interested in that kind of meeting.
4 I pursued those attempts a lot of times. I talked to the
5 international community, UNPROFOR, asking them to mediate between us and
6 the other side in order to arrange such a meeting.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bagaric. This is going to be my next
8 set of questions, but let's look at two more things in this document.
9 On the second page, in the Croatian version, which is also page 4
10 in the English version - in Croatian, this is page 2, paragraph 3 - the
11 document was signed by the Control and Inspection, Mr. Stevo Sarlik
12 [phoen]. I believe I've forgotten to say that. It says here:
13 "I went to Mostar to be present with UNPROFOR when MOS wounded
14 were taken on board."
15 I would like to emphasise that previously you can see that the
16 date is the 3rd of September?
17 A. Yes, I remember that.
18 Q. And it says what ensued was a MOS mortar attack on the part of
19 town under the control of the HVO. Eighteen civilians were wounded, five
20 of them children, and five civilians were killed. Among the wounded
21 civilians, there were eight Muslims. It is clear that the aim of the
22 attack was for the MOS to show the public that the evacuation could not
23 be carried out for security reasons.
24 Mr. Bagaric, two questions. First of all, do you remember this
25 event at all?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Second question: Can you tell the Trial Chamber, how often did
3 such attacks happen while you were working in Mostar? I believe you had
4 an office in Mostar; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, I did spend a lot of time in Mostar throughout my
6 engagement, and such attacks were frequent. This is one which resulted
7 in the wounding and killing of civilians and children. I personally
8 witnessed frequent mortar and all other attacks on MOS.
9 However, to be honest, it was very hard for me to tell the
10 difference. I didn't know whether the fire came from the positions of
11 the Army of Republika Srpska or from the Muslim Bosniak positions, but
12 the truth is that the town did come under shell attacks every now and
13 then. But I believe that it would be very important for the
14 Trial Chamber to know and to bear in mind that this document clearly
15 shows that my colleague, Mr. Sandrk, who was chief of our Control and
16 Inspection Service, he noted the lack of interest on the part of the
17 Muslim Bosniak side and the evacuation of the wounded. And it really is
18 very hard to understand the whole thing because the patients and the
19 Muslim doctors in the east part of Mostar during the conflict with the
20 Croats and the HVO were indeed in very dire straits, their situation was
21 very difficult. However, we had a similar if not the same or even a
22 worse situation in Bila, and we had agreed upon an evacuation exercise
23 for all, everybody for everybody. However, you could sense that the
24 Muslim Bosniak side was hesitating, dragging their feet, and I didn't
25 know why. I was never clear on the reason why they would do that.
1 Q. You are probably talking about the part of the document which
2 starts on the same page and says: "On the 5th of September, 1993," this
3 is page 5, paragraph 2 in the English version. Is that what you're
4 talking about?
5 A. Yes, precisely.
6 Q. I'm going to have to show you another list. The document number
7 is 2D508, and it speaks about the same incident. And on the penultimate
8 page of this document, you confirmed that you know about a mortar shell
9 that had fallen and that some people were killed and wounded. And now
10 look at the date the 3rd of September, where it says: "The wounded."
11 Why do you remember this event, Mr. Bagaric? What makes it so striking
12 to you?
13 A. Because children were killed, children died.
14 Q. And now let's go to the penultimate page. You see a list of 17
15 persons, civilians, and could you please look at the diagnosis. And as a
16 doctor, I don't want you to speculate, can you tell us whether those
17 people were wounded? Look at the diagnosis and tell us whether it is
18 possible that they were wounded in the way it is described in the
19 previous document, by mortar fire.
20 A. What page is that?
21 Q. It is 2D508, penultimate page. The date is 3rd of September.
22 Did you find it?
23 A. Penultimate, yes.
24 Q. 3rd of September. It starts with "Maric, Marijana." Could you
25 please tell us, look at the diagnosis?
1 A. Yes, this is precisely that. I really can't tell you exactly
2 because I can't remember the names of the children who were killed, but
3 it is obvious that all of these were wounds inflicted by explosions and
4 resulted in explosive trauma. As you can see here, due to explosion,
5 these individuals suffered wounds to their heads, chest, stomach,
6 shoulders, again chest cavity.
7 Q. And now, again, could you please briefly comment upon the names
8 that you see in front of you. Just take a glance and tell us whether
9 there are Croats and Muslims here.
10 A. Correct, yes, both.
11 Q. And now the last entry, the civilians who were killed on the 3rd
12 of September.
13 A. Yes, I can see that.
14 Q. And also can you please confirm that we see here five names of
15 both Croats and Bosniak Muslims?
16 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
17 Q. Mr. Bagaric, so far you have mentioned having had good
18 communication with international organisations. I'm going to ask you to
19 explain to the Trial Chamber which international organisations you
20 communicated with in the course of this period from September 1992 up to
21 sometime -- let's say the Washington Accords. Which were the
22 international organisations that you communicated with, how -- is there
23 anything you would like to add about their behaviour, your contacts with
24 them, or any such thing?
25 A. Yes. We were practically constantly in communication with the
1 UN, the UNHCR, and the International Red Cross, and the Doctors Without
2 Borders, as much as we could. It's my impression -- and actually I would
3 very much like to be allowed to be given the time to say what I mean to
4 say on this topic and for that to be recorded in the transcript.
5 My experience from that conflict or from that period of the war
6 is that the international organisations, either due to objective reasons
7 or often subjective reasons, did not and were not able to do much about
8 the conflict. Simply, in terms of what I talked about, often one would
9 monitor if the sides in the conflict were in accord, if one or the other
10 side was accepting something or not. The interventions would be delayed
11 or postponed, and I think that in terms of that, the doctors who were
12 together with me in that area believe that the experiences that we had
13 there, generally we - I am thinking of doctors of Croat and of Bosnian
14 Muslim ethnicity - should provide an input in cases of future conflicts.
15 For example, we proposed for a joint hospital to be formed in
16 Mostar and that our existing HVO war hospital be used both for the Croats
17 and for Bosnian Muslims and members of their army, but I know that two
18 members of the UN and international organisations seemed to be an
19 impossible mission. But I'm convinced that everything is possible if you
20 wish to carry through and if there is at least one side that is in
21 accord, and evidence of that is that throughout that whole period in
22 Mostar, we worked on the actual front-line, that the hospital in Mostar
23 was on the actual front-line; so, therefore, this is one issue, not to
24 mention other matters that had to do with refugee camps, prisoners,
25 rather in which way this humanitarian activity could be advanced.
1 Perhaps had Ovcara and Vukovar been prevented, Srebrenica might
2 not have happened. Once Srebrenica did happen, then, as an international
3 institution, we have the case of Rwanda. So my professor of public
4 health, my colleague who participated in these events in Mostar,
5 Professor Slobodan [indiscernible], wrote and published a very important
6 article in which he proposes 12 elements in order to improve things on
7 the basis of experiences during the war, the improving of humanitarian
8 law and other aspects that had to do with this.
9 Q. I didn't interrupt you, Mr. Bagaric.
10 A. Thank you very much.
11 Q. Now I would like to go back to your contacts with international
12 organisations. I'm going to put a general question to you, and then
13 we're going to move to documents that show that. You said you had
14 contacts with different international organisations?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How, objectively, did they contribute to the resolution of health
17 issues in that area? What are your experiences about that?
18 A. Very often, the internation humanitarian organisations managed to
19 help us, and of course any assistance was very welcome, but often what I
20 talked about and what I'm very dissatisfied about would also happen. For
21 example, we would be asking for medicines. I remember an officer from
22 the World Health Organisation who said, We don't have medicines. Well,
23 who is supposed to have them if the World Health Organisation doesn't
24 have them.
25 The International Red Cross, despite all the efforts -- well,
1 let's say I remember a time when he told us that he could not help us in
2 the transfer of doctors from one town, where there were plenty of them to
3 another one where there was a total shortage because that would be
4 counter to their mission. That was incomprehensible to me. Then these
5 examples that I referred to; for example in the hospital, global hospital
6 and so on and so forth.
7 Q. Well, let's look at a few documents that discuss that and some of
8 your correspondence. The first one is 3D217 [as interpreted].
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'm going to ask you, but we do have a number of important
11 topics, so can you just comment on this request. Tell us to whom it's
12 addressed and what it's about. 2D317.
13 A. Yes, I can see it.
14 Q. Well, in the transcript, it says "3D217," but actually it's 317.
15 Give us your comments.
16 A. This is a document that speaks about us securing support and the
17 treatment of our sick children, children who are from different areas of
18 Herzegovina, who suffer from different illnesses. And now that we're
19 looking at it, I can also see that these children are from different
20 ethnic groups. This is one of the projects that was successfully
21 implemented, where others did invest efforts in order to help us.
22 Q. Yes. This is something that is evident. I would like to
23 emphasise that, that you say "our sick children." And we're talking
24 about the 14th of April, 1993, and there is a list of 13, 14, 15. And
25 then on the other side, where you signed it, we have the names. And so
1 judging by the names, what would you say? Are we talking about Croats or
2 Bosniaks here?
3 A. What you said are Muslim children, the names you referred to, but
4 of course there are Croats among them, Muslims.
5 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I'm now going to ask you to comment --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to stop you. It's 20
7 to 6.00, so 20 minutes' break, and we will resume at 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in session.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I was told that I still have an hour and 38 minutes
13 for my examination-in-chief, and since we still have at least two or
14 three large topics that we have to cover, I'm just going to ask you for a
15 brief comment on the documents that I'm going to show you, and perhaps
16 the last one we will look at in more detail.
17 Can you please look at the following document. This is your
18 communication with international organisations. Could you please look at
19 2D706. Have you found the document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This is the 28th of April. You are sending the letter to the
22 International Red Cross, and you are referring to the situation in
23 Konjic. Does that have to do with the situation that you referred to
24 earlier in the time-period that you referred to?
25 A. Yes, precisely.
1 Q. All right. Can you please look at the next document. This is
2 2D710, 2D710, yes.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry for being meticulous, Ms. Nozica. The
4 previous document, you indicated that the date was 25th of April, and all
5 I see is "the 5th of May." So probably I did something wrong, and I
6 stand to be corrected.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Document 2D706, 2D706.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I was with the next document, actually.
9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you please look at document 2D710. I think that is the
11 document that I asked for, 2D710.
12 Have you found the document?
13 A. You are skipping one document? I'm talking about 2D519.
14 Q. Yes, yes, we will go back to 519, but can you please comment on
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you comment on this document?
18 A. This refers to the situation that I talked about in Bugojno, yes.
19 Q. And here you're addressing the UN; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Let us go back now to document 2D519.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what the document is about?
24 A. This is the situation in Konjic, when we tried to enter all of
25 those places together with the UN in Konjic and when we failed. I'm
1 actually again addressing the UN and attaching my reports from the field,
2 and they, themselves, also know that that's how it was. And I'm just
3 saying that we did not succeed in completing our task.
4 Q. Mr. Bagaric, can we look at 2D521.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This is being sent to the Spanish Battalion. You are writing to
7 them on the 31st of July, and you're saying that at 7.00, there were
8 ambushes in Kucani and Toscenica when the Muslims ambushed and killed
9 ambulance driver, Ivan Topic and medical technician, Zvonko Tolj. At
10 that time, they took the driver in an unknown direction as well as
11 medical technicians. Do you remember the situation?
12 A. Yes, Mr. Herve Kalubaric [phoen] I know personally. This is
13 correct information, and unfortunately the event did take place.
14 Q. The next document is 2D713. This is your address to the
15 International Red Cross of the 2nd of August?
16 A. Yes. It is connected to the previous event, and we are asking
17 them to establish a connection with these people. And I remember that
18 they did that, they communicated with them.
19 Q. Let's look at the next document, 2D716. In the original
20 document, I can see --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am concerned whether
22 these were captured, and I want to know whether they were released.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After a couple of months, they were
24 freed, but it was after a couple of months. I don't know exactly how
25 long it took.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you look at document 2D716, please.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This document is of the 23rd of September and again talks about
6 the situation in Central Bosnia. Again, it talks about the transport of
7 sick and wounded persons from Nova Bila. I'm just asking you if this is
8 one of the requests you sent to international organisations for the
9 transport of wounded from the hospitals that were referred to.
10 A. Yes, and it confirms that the situation in Central Bosnia was
11 constantly difficult at that time.
12 Q. Can we now skip a document, and if you can look at 2D460 now. We
13 can speed things up a little bit. This is a document of the 16th of
14 January, 1994?
15 A. Yes. Yes, again the story is repeated, an unresolved situation
16 where we are persistently trying to establish communication and save the
17 wounded up there, and the sick.
18 Q. Can you please look at document 2D733 now. This is again the
19 16th of January, 1994. The UN Observers and the UNPROFOR Command are
20 being addressed. Can you please look at page 1, and if you can just
21 comment what you suggest here.
22 A. Isn't this the same paper? I think that it is.
23 Q. 2D733.
24 A. Yes, I think this is the -- only the translation of this paper.
25 Q. Well, what is your suggestion about this document here?
1 A. We are suggesting that the routes of evacuation, manner of
2 transport of the wounded, members of the HVO and civilians, are done in a
3 way that it's carried out either by UNPROFOR or that they are escorted by
4 UNPROFOR or taken out by helicopter.
5 Q. Mr. Bagaric, excuse me, please, but can you please look at the
6 screen. I'm talking about document 2D733. You can see it on your
7 monitor, 733. This is your request to the UN observers and the UNPROFOR
8 Command in Kiseljak, and you say:
9 "In view of the fact that the situation regarding help for the
10 wounded is getting worse in Bosnia and Herzegovina," and you're talking
11 about saving lives, and you're asking that commanders of Health Services
12 of the HVO and the B and H Army meet in order that they could agree, in
13 the presence of members of the Observer mission?
14 A. This is one of our frequent requests aimed at bringing together
15 the leaders in the Medical Service, because we believed if this happened
16 the situation in the field would be alleviated and contribute to a
17 cessation of combat.
18 Q. Mr. Bagaric, just so that all of this is clear, we're talking
19 about bringing together commanders of the HVO and B and H Army health
20 services? Is that being interpreted correctly on my part, you were
21 talking about bringing them together?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Well, let us finally look at a document that summarises what
24 we're talking about. This is document 2D512 [as interpreted]. It's a
25 memo of yours of the 20th of December, 1993, talking about the situation
1 with the wounded, the sick, the supply of medicines and equipment, and
2 the relations between the Muslim and Croat side, the HVO and the ABiH.
3 It's sent to the UNPROFOR, UNHCR, and the International Red Cross.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. Ms. Nozica, I think the number is
5 502 and not 512.
6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Yes, I
7 have just been told that the transcript is incorrect. It's 2D502. I was
8 not paying attention to the number.
9 Q. Go ahead.
10 A. This is a very important document. In a certain way, it provides
11 a lot of details, talking about the problem and issue of our sick and
12 wounded, and in more general terms about the situation on the ground; and
13 that is why this document, I'm asking the other side and the
14 representatives of international institutions to assist us, to help us in
15 establishing contact with the other side, with a view to transporting our
16 wounded and sick and providing them full medical assistance. And I'm
17 talking about both Croats and Muslims, without any conditions.
18 In one place here, I am saying that should we not be able to
19 agree definitely, then the Bosniak Muslim side should take their patients
20 wherever they want to take them. If they cannot be treated in the
21 eastern side of Mostar, then they should either bring their patients to
22 the western part of Mostar or take them to Sarajevo. I apologise.
23 Sarajevo would have been very hard because Sarajevo was under very grave
24 circumstances. However, very often they had to take people to Turkey and
25 other countries of the European Union that were willing to assist their
1 sick and wounded. That's why we are asking them to enable that to
2 happen. I'm talking about the wounded, about the sick, about medical
3 institutions and medical equipment, about medical supplies, and so on and
4 so forth.
5 This is a document which was issued at the end of the year 1993.
6 Before the end of the war, a lot of time elapsed, and if we had been able
7 to reach an agreement at that time, I'm sure that many, many people, our
8 patients, Muslims, Croats, would have survived the terrible and
9 unnecessary conflict. And I'm very sincere when I say that all those
10 were victims of the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina that were
11 not necessary.
12 Q. Mr. Bagaric, according to your proposal that was sent to all the
13 relevant addressees of the international community, you are dividing sick
14 people into two categories, and your proposal is that all the sick and
15 wounded could be treated, irrespective of differences among people,
16 irrespective of the fact whether they were ones or the others, and that
17 all available institutions should be used. And under C, you're saying
18 that with the help of international institutions, "we should improve the
19 situation in the existing institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina," and under
20 C used the health institution in Croatia which was agreed with the
21 minister of health in the Republic of Croatia. Could you please tell us
22 whether the wounded members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina also
23 went to Croatia after having been evacuated from the territory of East
25 A. Yes, not only from the territory of East Mostar, but also all the
1 war-struck areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, thousands upon thousands of
2 patients, wounded soldiers, civilians, Muslims, but there were also
3 Serbs -- more Muslims than Serbs, but there were Serbs as well. There
4 were also thousands of Croats who were treated and taken care of in
5 Croatian hospitals, without any questions asked, without any money; and
6 this to my mind was the biggest humanitarian aid that one state extended
7 to another during a conflict, during the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 I believe there was no single state that helped Bosnia and Herzegovina to
9 that extent. I don't know of any historical case that would be
10 comparable. And the wounded are just one part of the story, and sick.
11 There was a lot more humanitarian aid which arrived in Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 and reached both Muslims and Croats from Croatia and via Croatia by land
13 or by sea, and it's a fact.
14 Q. I'm now going to draw your attention to the part in which you're
15 talking about drugs and medicines, but before that, I would like to ask
16 you this: Were there any reactions to this letter of yours? Did anybody
17 inform you that steps could be taken?
18 A. The most frustrating thing for a man who was trying to deal with
19 a problem in the war was the fact that very often there was no reply
20 whatsoever, none. I assume that the representatives of the international
21 community did send that to the other side and they did not accept this
22 gesture, because if they had done that, they would not have been able to
23 enjoy the reputation of a victim, to put it that way. I don't have any
24 other explanation.
25 And when I requested from the international community
1 representatives to tell me what was going on and what could be done, they
2 would always tell me, We are waiting for their reply. And we were always
3 waiting and waiting and waiting, until the end of the war, and it was not
4 forthcoming, it never arrived; only every now and then there were
5 meetings organised, and then with the assistance of generals and
6 commanders, some agreements would be signed about the transport of one
7 person or the other. But this was all in the hands of the other side,
8 which was dragging their feet and procrastinating, and I don't know why
9 to this very day.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to link up
11 this last answer with a question I meant to ask, because since the
12 beginning of the afternoon I've been carefully looking at all the
13 documents and I have the feeling or even the certainty, reading the
14 report you drafted, among other things, paragraph F in Chapter 1, that
15 somehow you are challenging the international institutions who seem to
16 have taken a stand in favour of the opponent, and the fact that you said
17 that you sent a letter and got no reply. This is what one can infer from
18 this. Is this what you experienced in the field, because you're
19 mentioning examples to the effect that the international organisations
20 established institutions in Tuzla, Zenica, et cetera, Muslim areas, and
21 apparently nothing in Croatian zones. Now, my question is as follows:
22 Were your reports based on subjective impressions or was this actually
23 what was happening in the field?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours,
25 certainly that I am telling you about my impressions. It is inevitable.
1 I had regular communication with representatives of the international
2 community and other institutions. However, this report, i.e., this
3 request, was based primarily on the data that we had received from the
5 Let me remind you, Central Bosnia was encircled, fully encircled,
6 the hospital in Bila, the hospital in Zepce, the hospital up there in
7 Orasje, and so on and so forth, and now if we compare our requests that
8 we sent to the international institutions and their response then, I
9 would say that all the time we had a feeling that as a matter of fact,
10 their responses did not match our requests. Their reactions were not
11 sufficient. Of course, they helped us. Of course, they assisted us.
12 From time to time, they played the key role, which I have emphasised here
13 in paragraph F. I'm saying here that -- just a moment. Bear with me,
15 Let me not waste your time. I'm sure it's there. I often did
16 this. I thanked the international institutions for everything that they
17 did, but it always seemed to me that there was much room left to do more
18 and that the support was not forthcoming, not to the extend we would have
20 There were cases, and I'm aware of such cases, when, for example,
21 a field hospital was built and used by Muslim Bosniaks in Bosnia, and
22 nothing of the kind was ever built in Bila, where the hospital was
23 actually in the church. When we asked for some wounded to be
24 transported, as a rule this would be delayed ad nauseam. I know that
25 representatives of the international community were limited by the
1 willingness of the Bosnian Muslim side. I know that. I'm aware of that.
2 However, I was bothered by the lack of effectiveness and efficiency. At
3 least, that's how it looked like from my point of view.
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Trial
5 Chamber and Their Honours, and now I would like us to look at the part
6 entitled "Medical Supplies" on the second page of this document, just one
7 part that will be our introduction for our next topic.
8 Q. You are saying in the document:
9 "Throughout the war, we have tried to supply all medical
10 institutions with additional medicines and drugs, irrespective of who the
11 institutions belonged to and who they were treating. Whenever the Muslim
12 side requested medicines from us, they would receive them on the same
13 day. Enclosed please find some of the dispatch notes for such drugs."
14 Mr. Bagaric, the next topic that I would like to ask you about
15 are the relationships with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Here, you
16 are stating one thing, and let me ask you this first: What was your
17 relationship with the healthcare of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 before the conflict? And then we'll go back to the topic of that
19 relationship during the conflict.
20 A. With the leave of the Trial Chamber, I would like to comment on
21 Article F in my letter, because I believe that I still owe you the
23 I'm saying here that the engagement is valued, because any
24 support to the other side is good; however, it seems to us that we lack
25 that support or do not receive it to the same extent. I accept,
1 Your Honours, that I may have been subjective in all that. However, I'm
2 absolutely convinced that the international institutions could work
3 towards improving their efficiency and effectiveness, and this is
4 something that leaves a lot to be desired.
5 And as for your question, Madam Nozica, our cooperation with the
6 other side and our colleagues on the other side before the conflict with
7 the Muslims, between the Croats and Muslims, was fair, if not excellent.
8 We established our war hospitals together. We cooperated, we worked
9 together, we treated people together, and that's how it was until the end
10 of the war.
11 However, my dissatisfaction arises from the part that concerns
12 the areas under encirclement, for example, Croats in Central Bosnia in
13 this case, and at the same time this was happening to the Muslims in the
14 eastern side of Mostar. It seems that there was no support, that there
15 was no cooperation between the doctors; and my impression is that this
16 was not down to the doctors in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it
17 was down to the commanders, who wouldn't let them do anything. To put it
18 simply, they just did not allow this sort of open communication and
19 cooperation between the two sides, between the medical personnel of the
20 two sides.
21 At the same time, the international institutions were trapped by
22 their non-acceptance, and they did not know how to respond to that.
23 I'm not saying that anybody was malicious or malevolent in the
24 institutions of the international community, I'm not saying that.
25 Q. After the conflict with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you
1 were talking about what was happening before the conflict, and now after
2 the conflict with the BiH Army did you continue seeking cooperation and
3 offering solutions that would be mutually beneficial?
4 A. Of course, absolutely. I claim with full responsibility that we
5 were doing that all the time. And, I repeat, it was a frustrating
6 battle, because we never received, or at least not to the extent that we
7 expected, the answers from the other side.
8 Q. I'm sorry that I have to remind you of the time, but now we have
9 arrived at a topic that is very important, and that's why I'm going to
10 show I was series of documents talking about that. First of all, could
11 you please look at 2D705.
12 A. I have it.
13 Q. You signed this document. This document has already been
14 admitted. The date is 21st of December, 1992. And just briefly, I would
15 kindly ask you to comment on your proposal put forth in this document.
16 What was your idea?
17 A. This was at a time when we still believed that Croats and Muslim
18 Bosniaks would never come into conflict. However, we were afraid because
19 there was already some skirmishes in the field. I was asking
20 Mile Akmadzic, the prime minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to get in touch
21 with my colleague in the BiH Army, and I wanted the two of us to appear
22 together, based on the letter that was to ensue. I wanted us to appear
23 together and to share -- to demonstrate how Croat and Muslim Bosniak
24 doctors were against any conflict, that they wanted to prevent any
25 possible war. That's one of the documents that I sent via the
1 prime minister of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo.
2 Q. Could you please look at the following document, dealing with the
3 same topic, and then I will ask you whether there was any response to
5 A. I can comment.
6 Q. Can you comment on the second document? First I have to call it,
7 sir. This is 3D708. Could you please comment on that document very
8 briefly, 3D708.
9 A. Here I am addressing actually the first letter. It's the
10 enclosure of the second, more important document, I would say, and the
11 second document was sent directly to the head of the Medical Service of
12 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to their chief surgeon; and I am
13 asking him to word a text the way he thinks it should be formed, any way
14 he wanted, and I would co-sign it, and then we would return it to
15 Mr. Robert Simon, who was the representative of the International Medical
16 Corps. I have to apologise to everybody from the international community
17 for my disaffection, because this Mr. Simon was really eager. He wanted
18 to prevent any conflict, and he was a doctor, and he tried to convince me
19 that if the doctors were to put forth such a position, that that
20 possible -- that conflict could be prevented, and I still believe that
21 this was possible. If the doctors were united and appeared together, if
22 they didn't want a war and if they educated people in that sense, and
23 especially based on the very grave experiences that we had suffered, then
24 I believe that the conflict could have been prevented. This is a special
25 part of the public health, as such.
1 Q. Can we now look -- before that, I believe that the question is
2 superfluous, but still I want to ask you. Did you receive any answers to
3 your first or second letters?
4 A. No. Unfortunately, no answers whatsoever.
5 Q. Can you look at document 2D737.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I intervene to ask you
7 the following question: Let's say that while looking at these two last
8 documents, I'm very surprised, because you are in a hierarchal chain, and
9 you write to the president of the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 directly, and you write to your corresponding number who is in the
11 opposite camp. So is this a habit in your country, where the rules of
12 hierarchy are not respected, that is to say that you may write only with
13 the permission of your chiefs, or does everybody do anything they want?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, if you
15 formed the wrong impression. Actually, 1992, the 21st of December, 1992,
16 is the year of the conflict, the year of the war, so it's not a regular
17 situation and, as such, sometimes calls for intervention which, in an
18 ordered world, an ordered organisation, might seem irregular. But thanks
19 to my acquaintance with Mr. Akmadzic, because I was a deputy in the
20 Parliament, I believe that this was simply a gesture of goodwill, an
21 attempt to communicate in a way that would not inflict harm on anyone,
22 but that could produce certain positive results. On the other hand, I
23 did consult my superiors, and nobody was opposed to me doing this. This
24 is what it comes down to.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
1 continues] ... question.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Can you please look at the next document, 2D737, please. We
4 simply arranged the documents chronologically to show this cooperation in
5 terms of the medical work and medical equipment. This is the Trauma and
6 Orthopaedic Service of the Dzemal Bijedic Medical Centre, and it's
7 addressed on the 31st of December, 1992. Mr. Stojic was not there at the
8 time. This was a request for certain instruments, technical aids,
9 bandages, disinfectant, and other things for the hospital. And can you
10 please tell us if you agree or not that assistance of this kind was being
11 sent to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the area of Zenica?
12 A. Yes, this is Mr. Stojic's signature, stating that he approved
13 this. I'm repeating again that we're talking about 1992, when there was
14 no conflict between the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims. And it indicates
15 that the Muslims were not in an easy situation, either. They were
16 suffering from shortages, too, and required help, which I believe did
17 arrive, because I think somebody did deliver this. I'm not familiar with
18 this document. I haven't seen it, I didn't see it during the war or
19 anything like that, but I do believe that the request was fulfilled,
20 because it's initialled as being approved. So this is just part of our
21 regular communication among doctors.
22 Q. Can you look at the following document, 2D704. This is a list of
23 essential medicines and material from the Medical Centre in Visoko of the
24 5th of December. There is no heading to whom the document is addressed.
25 That's why I'm asking you. These are medicines. Do you remember? Do
1 you remember whether it is stated to whom this request for medicines and
2 equipment was addressed to and whether it was delivered?
3 A. Once again, I apologise, but this is a document of which I saw
4 many during the war before the conflict between us broke out, so this is
5 a request addressed to the Medical Service, our medical service, and
6 perhaps it was sent to the Republic of Croatia. But they did that
7 through us, so most often it would be the Split Hospital, which was
8 actually the closest. It was on the road from Bosnia to Croatia. So
9 therefore -- but I don't know really whether this was implemented in a
10 way or not. I really don't know.
11 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I don't expect you to know everything about each
12 before case, but on the basis of the documents that we saw, I'm going to
13 ask you if you have information whether actions like this were carried
14 out and medicines were delivered, and medical equipment, for the needs of
15 the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army at this time.
16 A. Yes, yes, absolutely, yes.
17 Q. Can you look at document 2D316. This is a notice. Let me just
18 put a question. First, this is a result of a meeting on April 14th,
19 1993, and it's addressed to the Wartime Studio of Mostar. Can you please
20 tell us what you know about this notice and the reaction to it?
21 A. Yes, this is April the 14th, 1993, already indicating a time
22 indicating the possible of an open conflict, a war, a conflict between us
23 Croats and Bosniak Muslims, on the radio that you referred to. In a very
24 unprofessional, biased way, the hospital in Mostar was presented in the
25 sense that Croats were not allowing this or that, and then I -- I was not
1 the commander of the hospital, but because of these reasons, I organised
2 this meeting, together with the hospital director and all the leading
3 doctors, where, in a certain way, we expressed -- or actually rejected
4 notice like this one and said that we needed to work together and that we
5 were appealing to everyone that we should work together, and in that way
6 we were actually contributing to what actually I was talking about the
7 whole time here and what I was saying the whole time then.
8 And I apologise, there's a sentence here which is -- well, I
9 don't know if I would write it now, but at that time it was quite
10 logical. Actually, it says:
11 "On behalf of the Command and the doctors of the war hospital,
12 support is being given in the war of the Croats and Muslims against the
13 common enemy."
14 Because at that time the Croats and the Muslims thought of the
15 Serbs exclusively as the enemy, as their opponents, and also the wish was
16 expressed that the conflicts, which are unnatural, should stop. And I
17 know that perhaps it might seem a bit too much from me to the
18 Trial Chamber, but I did believe in the dream that we could really
19 contribute to the prevention of the conflict and the war, at least from
20 the extent to which it occurred.
21 Q. All right. Well, let's look at document 2D318. It's an
22 announcement of the 23rd of April, and it indicates the presence of the
23 chief of the Medical Corps of the 4th Corps. Is this is another one of
24 your attempts for a joint --
25 A. Yes, that is correct. I went to him and asked him to draft or
1 set up a conversation, a talk, and to publicise everything that we wrote
2 down here. I think that this meeting was held at the Command of the
3 army. At the time, I think the commander was a person by the name of
4 Tajtuk [phoen], and we came up with this document where we talk about
5 something to the effect that if a conflict should occur, we would use our
6 resources and people together in order to save everybody, regardless of
7 who was in question, and this is very important. I don't need to read
8 this. I mean, this is a terrible copy. So what was agreed was that an
9 UNPROFOR transporter be available for the extraction of wounded civilians
10 and soldiers. All problems on the side of the army and the HVO should be
11 dispatched for resolution the same day by members of the Medical Corps
12 and the chief of the Medical Corps of the 4th Corps. This was my
13 colleague, Dzemal, the head of the 4th Corps.
14 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you initiated this?
15 A. Yes, yes, I did.
16 Q. Did you hear me? Did you initiate this meeting?
17 A. Yes, yes, I did. I said that.
18 Q. Let's look at the next document, 3D -- 2D319. This document was
19 also signed by you. This is an exhibit we've already seen of the 6th of
20 May, 1993. You are appointing a surgical team to work in the Jablanica
21 War Hospital?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Already at this time, Mr. Bagaric, on the 6th of May, because
24 your report was from the 5th of May from the visits where you went with
25 Mr. Petkovic, already in that section did the conflict break out between
1 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO?
2 A. On the 6th of May, 1993, after all that had happened up in
3 Konjic, at the request of the medical or the surgical team from
4 Jablanica, I am writing an order to the regional war hospital of the HVO
5 in Mostar to relieve this team, so the order goes into effect
6 immediately. We did affect this shift, this relief.
7 Q. Who formed this hospital in Jablanica?
8 A. The hospital in Jablanica was formed by doctors of the HVO, but
9 we did not think about it as particularly ours, quote/unquote. The
10 director of the medical centre at the time agreed to be the director of
11 that institution. We treated it as one of our institutions, in terms of
12 coverage, and we provided treatment together of both ethnic groups until
13 the conflict didn't shift from Jablanica and Konjic to the area of
14 Mostar. And then once that happened, it was not possible to communicate
15 with Jablanica, because on the road, Your Honours, towards Jablanica and
16 Konjic, this conflict in Mostar effected, in fact, a break in the
18 Q. Mr. Bagaric, when you say you treated both, you are talking about
19 the HVO and the Croats and the Bosniaks; am I correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. So the units of the HVO who were there and the units of the
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina Army who were in that area; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes. I apologise. I am just saying this is the 6th of May,
24 the 6th of May. This is after the conflict in Konjic and that part up
1 Just one moment. This is very important. At that time, I think
2 there were no more HVO soldiers in this hospital. All trust was lost,
3 but still we did relieve that surgical team.
4 Q. My question referred to the time-period when this hospital was
6 A. Yes, yes, yes, you are correct. Yes, you are correct.
7 Q. Would you please look at P02221 [as interpreted]. The question
8 will be short, because this is already an exhibit.
9 On the 11th of May, 1993, an approval was given by Mr. Stojic for
10 the transport of plasma for the hospital in Mostar. This is obviously
11 the hospital in East Mostar. I'm asking you this: Can you confirm for
12 the Trial Chamber that you were involved and that you were aware of
13 plasma being sent to East Mostar and whether the date was also the 11th
14 of May, 1993?
15 A. Blood did not go there that often as medicines and drugs, but I
16 know for a fact that there was one such case when blood was indeed sent
17 to the eastern side of Mostar. I don't know, I can't confirm that this
18 was the case or whether there was another case. Maybe there were several
19 such cases, but I wouldn't know. We simply did not have blood, and we
20 had to borrow it from Split. I remember on two occasions we did it.
21 Q. And now follows a series of documents, starting with 2D119. This
22 is a letter of yours dated 3rd June 1993, sent to the Command of the
23 4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and could you please
24 provide a brief comment?
25 A. On the 3rd of June, it was aired on the radio that the Army of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina, i.e., the eastern side of Mostar after the
2 conflict in the month of May - am I right in saying that it was in the
3 month of May? Yes, it was - that they did not have any medicines and
4 medical supplies, and then I did not sign this personally, it was signed
5 by a colleague on my behalf, and then we sent the offer to the other
6 side, saying that we had heard that they were lacking supplies and that
7 we were awaiting for their breakdown to see if we could help them.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would like to correct a number in
9 the transcript. Page number 84, line 15, the number should read
10 "P02291." There are too many 2s. P02291 is the correct number. P02291;
11 two 2s. Now it's correct. Thank you.
12 Q. Following the letter that we have just looked at under
13 number 2D119, can we look at document 2D120?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your brief comment, please. Does this document arise from the
16 previous offer that you provided?
17 A. Yes. The commander of the 4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina, Arif Pasalic, replied to our offer and asked to -- actually,
19 was taking us up on our -- taking us up on our offer and providing us
20 with the list or the breakdown of everything they needed. I believe that
21 some things are missing in the list, but, yes, it did happen, it did
22 transpire after our letter. We're talking about a list of all the drugs
23 and medicines.
24 Q. Can you please look at 2D504?
25 A. Yes, I can see it.
1 Q. The order issued by Mr. Tugomir Gveric is related to the previous
2 request of the 4th Corps for the delivery of drugs?
3 A. Yes, this is precisely that. After we had received the request
4 from the 4th Corps, Mr. Gveric says, Drugs to be issued according to the
5 breakdown enclosed, provided by the BiH Army, that quantities should be
6 available within seven days.
7 Q. Can you please look at 2D321 [Realtime transcript read in error,
8 "2D201"] that's the next document in the series.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, this was signed by Tugomir Gveric on the 8th of June.
11 Could you please tell us whether this is in relation to the request?
12 A. I believe so. Not that I believe so; yes, I'm sure that that's
13 the request.
14 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I apologise. What about the batch of drugs and
15 medical supplies that was sent to the BiH Army; did it relate to the
16 request by Mr. Arif Pasalic?
17 A. I believe that I said yes, yes.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would just like to correct. On
19 page 96, line 15, it should read "Document 2D321." That's the number of
20 the document, 2D321.
21 Q. This is the document that you have just looked at?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you please now look at 3D634?
24 A. I can see it.
25 Q. The date is 16 June. It was signed by Mr. Tugomir Gveric, and it
1 says the Central Depot, Drugs and Medical Supplies of the HZ-HB, Supply
2 for the BH Army?
3 A. That's correct, but I don't see here and I'm not sure whether
4 that is the correct date. I'm not sure whether this is the 15th of May
5 or the 16th of May. It was in Mostar, but this definitely refers to one
6 and the same matter, I'm sure, I'm convinced.
7 Q. I believe that this is obvious, that the date is 16th of May.
8 A. I apologise. If this is the 16th of June, how can it say, in
9 English "16th of May"?
10 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I asked you whether this was the same matter. We
11 looked at the request, and now I'm asking you whether this is the same
12 request, because the whole thing is not legible enough. That's why I'm
13 asking, if Mr. Pasalic, in document 2D120, sent a request on the 5th of
14 June, 1993. That's why I'm asking you whether the document covers the
15 dispatch of medicines pursuant to that particular request.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you please now look at 2D122.
18 A. Yes, I can see it.
19 Q. This is a new request dated 9 June. Could you please comment
20 briefly upon this request?
21 A. Well, nothing, this is precisely what I was talking about. He
22 wants a passage -- safe passage to be provided for a shift of the
23 surgical team, and the execution of a list of drugs, and then he mentions
24 a vehicle, the one that somebody -- and he says "you had seized from me,"
25 and this is all. This is precisely that.
1 Q. Mr. Bagaric, is this a new request?
2 A. Yeah, it's a new request, yeah.
3 Q. Could you please look at 2D233?
4 A. I can see it.
5 Q. This is a letter by Mr. Tugomir Gveric, who refers to the
6 previous document in his answer, and he says:
7 "As regards the request of the Command of the 4th Corps sent to
8 the Main Medical Staff of the HVO, we are duty-bound to answer we are
9 sending the medical equipment and drugs as per your request. We are
10 waiting UNPROFOR transportation. As regards your request for an
11 ambulance, we have to draw attention to the fact that during the
12 aggression against the town of Mostar, you deliberately destroyed 19
13 ambulances, wounded 6 drivers and killed 1. We are not in a position to
14 meet your request."
15 The number of the document is so-and-so.
16 2D323. I apologise. My attention has been drawn to the error.
17 Could you please comment? We're still talking about a team of
18 doctors, specialists?
19 A. Yes, yes. This is just a confirmation of what I have said a
20 minute ago. Due to the conflict, all communication with the war hospital
21 in Jablanica was discontinued, interrupted. Why was that? Because there
22 is no dispute that drugs were sent, they were being sent at the time, and
23 so on and so forth. However, my colleague Gveric says that we don't have
24 any ambulances. That was a fact. At least we didn't have enough in
25 order to be able to send them to others. And when it comes to surgical
1 teams, we had volunteers among the doctors who were willing to go, and I
2 know this for a fact, and I claim with full responsibility that nobody
3 volunteered to go, be it Muslims or Croats, and we really could not,
4 under such dire circumstances when we could not be guaranteed safety for
5 these people, we could not send them, we could not force them to leave.
6 We just could not send them with force to Jablanica. That's that.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is 7.00. Maybe
8 this would be a good time to adjourn.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now it's over 7.00.
10 Ms. Nozica, you will have 50 minutes, roughly, tomorrow. Witness, you
11 will come tomorrow afternoon, since we will resume at a quarter past 2.00
13 I wish everybody a pleasant evening.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of April,
16 2009, at 2.15 p.m.