Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38866

 1                           Monday, 20 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             This is Monday, April the 20th, 2009.  I would like to greet the

15     accused, as well as their counsels, as well as the representatives of the

16     Office of the Prosecution, and all those assisting us in the courtroom.

17             First of all, I would like to give the floor to the Registrar,

18     who'd like to communicate an IC number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             2D has submitted its list of documents to be tendered through

21     Witness Korac, Davor.  This list shall be given Exhibit IC987.

22             Thank you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

24             The Chamber is going to make a -- going to render an oral

25     decision proprio motu for the Stojic Defence.

Page 38867

 1             The Chamber recalls the decision of the guide-lines for the

 2     presentation of exculpatory evidence on 24 April 2008, and in particular

 3     paragraph 35 relating to guide-line 9.  Any motion for the admission of

 4     documentary evidence must be submitted at the shortest possible moment

 5     after the presentation of all the evidence pertaining to a municipality

 6     or a given matter.

 7             The Chamber notes that to date the Stojic Defence has not filed

 8     any motion -- any written motion for the admission of evidence under

 9     guide-line 9.  It could, therefore, infer that the Stojic Defence does

10     not intend to file a motion under guide-line 9 on the matters for which

11     it has finished its presentation.  Indeed, the Chamber recalls that the

12     Defence teams should not wait until the presentation of their case has

13     ended to file such motions.

14             This being said, the Chamber requests the Stojic Defence to file,

15     before the 23rd of April, 2009, its observations on the absence of any

16     motion filing under guide-line 9 at this stage.  The Chamber also

17     requests the Stojic Defence, also before the 23rd of April, 2009, to let

18     it know of its intentions to file or not to file one or several motions

19     under guide-line number 9, and if so, on which matters and under which

20     timing.

21             The Chamber wishes also to recall, for the benefit of the

22     Stojic Defence, that the possible coming of Momcilo Mandic as a witness

23     after the presentation of [indiscernible] will not, in any case, allow

24     him to file a new request under guide-line 9 after he will have appeared,

25     after this witness will have appeared.  So, therefore, the Stojic Defence

Page 38868

 1     is invited to tell us, before the 23rd of April, what it intends to do.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

 3     afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

 4             We gratitude, we accept this request, and we will meet it in the

 5     dead-line.  We would just like to say that we did not submit that motion

 6     because the Defence was not introduced according to municipalities, but

 7     according to topics; and as we all know in the courtroom, the expert gave

 8     a framework, the one who was questioned first; and the witness today is a

 9     witness who will round off this one topic that has to do with the health

10     topic; and we will submit our request and, by the 23rd, inform the

11     Chamber what we intend to do and by when.  And I acknowledge that if

12     Witness Mandic is heard later, we will include the evidence for admission

13     that refer to him.

14             Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

16             Mr. Kovacic, you have two minutes because you requested two

17     minutes.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I think that it is okay.

20             Your Honours, I would kindly ask me to permit an oral reply

21     regarding the Prosecution --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the interpreters

23     cannot hear you.

24             MR. KOVACIC:  We will try this one.

25             I'm asking the Trial Chamber to permit me to give only one small

Page 38869

 1     item as reply to Prosecution's response to Slobodan Praljak's motion to

 2     add 253 exhibits to the Rule 65 ter.  This response was submitted by the

 3     Prosecution on 16 April 2009.

 4             In the response, the Prosecution, inter alia, says that the

 5     Prosecution is prejudiced, as extremely few of those documents have been

 6     disclosed to the Prosecution.  The problem is that all documents from the

 7     motion -- included in the motion were not released on the e-court.  My

 8     reply to that is as follows:  Due to the technical error, the Prosecution

 9     is right; all the documents were really not released.  However, after

10     this response, precisely during this weekend we find out this error, and

11     now all the documents are released and all are available on the e-court.

12     I hope that will assist the Prosecution to go into those documents and

13     see what it's all about.

14             I don't think this was necessary to file in written form, it

15     would be sufficient, and it had to be replied.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Could you fetch the witness, usher.

18             Whilst we're waiting for the witness, we have a second oral

19     decision which I'm going to read right away, a decision on the adding of

20     several documents on the 65 ter motion of the Stojic Defence.

21             The Stojic Defence has requested that nine exhibits should be

22     added to its 65 ter list, to be submitted to the witness, Ivan Bagaric.

23     The Petkovic Defence, on the 17th of April, 2009, pointed out it didn't

24     oppose the request for the adding of 2D01540 on the 65 ter list submitted

25     by the Stojic Defence.  The other Defence teams and the Prosecution did

Page 38870

 1     not file any motion.

 2             First and foremost, the Chamber notes the withdrawal of the

 3     request for admission of 2D01535, submitted on April the 20th, 2009, and

 4     of the corrigendum submitted on the same day by the Stojic Defence on the

 5     latest motion filed on the 17th of April, 2009.

 6             The Chamber also notes or points out that the request for the

 7     adding of eight exhibits to the 65 ter list comes in very late because it

 8     was carried out only a few days before the appearance of Witness

 9     Ivan Bagaric.  However, in spite of the late-coming of this request, the

10     Chamber notes that the Stojic Defence could not obtain six out of the

11     eight exhibits, i.e., Exhibits 2D01534, 2D01536, 2D01537, 2D01538,

12     2D01539 and 2D01540 at the moment.  It only could get those documents at

13     the moment of the proofing.

14             Furthermore, the Chamber notes that these exhibits show some

15     signs of reliability and probative value and relevance, and that the

16     parties requested to present their observations did not invoke any

17     harming of their interests because of the request coming in late, the

18     request for the adding of exhibits.  Therefore, the Chamber decides to

19     admit the adding of those exhibits to the 65 ter list.

20             However, for 2D00303 and for 3D00235, the Chamber points out that

21     in its request of the 17th of April, 2009, the Stojic Defence pointed out

22     that it already had those documents before the proofing of the witness,

23     but that the need to submit them through Ivan Bagaric only appeared after

24     the proofing of that witness.  This explains why the adding to the

25     list -- to the 65 ter list was made late --

Page 38871

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Was requested late.  Interpreter's correction.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is the Chamber's view that

 3     this is not a sufficient reason to justify such a late request for adding

 4     those exhibits to the 65 ter list.

 5             The explanation provided by the Stojic Defence in its corrigendum

 6     of the 20th of April do not justify the late submission of these

 7     exhibits; hence, the Chamber requests the -- the Chamber rejects the

 8     request for adding of 2D00303 and 2D00235.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please

11     stand.

12             Could you please state your name, surname, and date of birth.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Ivan Bagaric, born on

14     the 11th of November, 1961.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

16     occupation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a doctor.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where do you work?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I am working at the

20     Faculty of Medicine in Split and in Mostar, but I also am a deputy in the

21     Assembly of the Republic of Croatia.  This is my political duty.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  As a member of

23     Parliament or a doctor, have you already been a witness before a court or

24     is this the first time you have ever been a witness before a court, or is

25     this the first time you have been a witness?

Page 38872

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not the first time that I

 2     am testifying.  I testified before in the case of Mr. Naletilic, but I

 3     testified to the general circumstances.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the Naletilic case, were you

 5     a Prosecution or a Defence witness?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a witness for the Defence.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Could you please read

 8     the solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  IVAN BAGARIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

14             Doctor, since you have already testified, I'll keep it very

15     brief, since you are familiar with the procedure.  You will have to

16     answer questions asked by Ms. Nozica, and she has prepared a series of

17     documents which are in binders, which we'll receive when Ms. Nozica asks

18     you questions on those documents.  Please try and be accurate and brief

19     in your answers.

20             If there is a question you do not understand, even if it's a

21     question asked by the Judges, do not hesitate to ask the one who asks you

22     the question to rephrase it.  You will first answer Ms. Nozica's

23     questions, after which the other counsels of the other accused, as

24     basically Ms. Nozica only represents Mr. Stojic, may ask you questions as

25     well.  The four Judges could also ask you questions to ask for

Page 38873

 1     clarification.  After this, the Prosecutor, on your right-hand side, will

 2     cross-examine you and ask you questions as well.

 3             We have four days for your evidence.  Since you're under oath,

 4     you're a court witness, which means that you're not to have any contact

 5     with Mr. Stojic's Defence and with anyone else on the content of your

 6     evidence.

 7             This is what I had to tell you.

 8             Without further adieu, I'd like to give the floor to Ms. Nozica,

 9     whom I'd like to greet again.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Once more, good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

12     everyone in the courtroom.  Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14             MS. NOZICA:  Before I begin with my examination, I would just

15     like to say that Mr. Bagaric asked me, and I'm obliged to transmit this

16     to the Court, we have planned four hours for the examination-in-chief of

17     this witness; and we have made a calculation according to which the

18     witness could complete his testimony by Thursday, within four days, in

19     the courtroom this week; but the witness particularly asked, if possible,

20     to stick to that because on Friday he needs to return in the afternoon to

21     Zagreb because of the appointments he has there.  So I would like to

22     inform the Chamber about that right at the beginning.

23                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bagaric, I'm going to read or present to the

25     Court briefly your particulars, and before we begin the examination, I

Page 38874

 1     would like you to confirm if all these particulars are correct.

 2             You are -- you graduated at the Faculty of Medicine in 1986 in

 3     Sarajevo.  In 1986 until 1992, you worked as a doctor at the

 4     Tomislavgrad Medical Centre?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You were a deputy in the Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     after the first multi-party elections in the period from 1990 until 1998?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   From March 1992 until September 1992, you were the chief of the

10     main medical headquarters of the HVO?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   From September 1992 until 1996, you were first assistant head of

13     the Defence Department and then assistant minister of defence for health

14     in the HVO OZ-HB and then later in the Croatian section of the HZ-HB.

15     You completed your specialisation from the topic of public health from

16     1995 to 1998?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   From 1999 until 2001, you worked as assistant minister for health

19     in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   From 2001 until 2003, you worked at the Institute of

22     Naval Medicine in Split?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   From 2002 until today, you are a docent for public health at the

25     Faculty of Medicine in Mostar?

Page 38875

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   And in Split?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You said today that you are a representative in the Assembly from

 5     2003 until today, the Assembly of the Republic of Croatia, for Croatian

 6     citizens who live outside of the Republic of Croatia?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   So if I understood that correctly, you represent all Croatian

 9     citizens in the Assembly of Croatia who happen to live outside the

10     Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct, regardless of the fact if they live in

12     Croatia -- in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Australia, Canada and so on.  As

13     long as they are Croatian citizens, I represent them in the Parliament.

14        Q.   All right.  Now I'm going to deal with the period which we

15     mentioned, it being that from March 1992, you were the chief of the main

16     medical headquarters, and we're also going to deal with the period when

17     you were the assistant head of the Health Department.

18             Mr. Bagaric, we had a witness here who explained in some detail

19     the forming of the HZ-HB Medical Corps, and I would like you now to do

20     that as concisely and as briefly as possible, but your answer should

21     discuss primarily your role in all of that, so how and when the

22     Medical Corps of the HZ-HB was formed.

23        A.   Thank you for the question and the opportunity to speak here,

24     Your Honours.  I think that it is very important for everyone here to

25     understand the context in which the Health Service of the HVO was

Page 38876

 1     organised, and it refers to the period mentioned by the counsel.

 2             After the open aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina and after

 3     overt aggression against the Republic of Croatia, excuse me, and evident

 4     preparations at the time of the Yugoslav Army and the Serbs, who rose

 5     against the Republic of Croatia, after the attack on the village of Ravno

 6     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and all the preparations for war in Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina, everything that was going on in the Parliament of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina at the time in Sarajevo, we, especially us doctors who

 9     happened to be deputies as well, decided in a way to try to organise a

10     kind of service which, in the event of war, would --

11        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Bagaric.  I would kindly ask you to slow down

12     for the record, please.

13        A.   We doctor, primarily those of us who were deputies in the

14     Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina, decided to try and form a service that

15     would respond to the needs of those who might need us, and who were

16     those?  Irrespective of whether they were civilians or soldiers,

17     irrespective of their ethnic affiliation, at the beginning of 1992 we

18     started to establish the Medical Service that later on would become the

19     main Medical Corps, and later on it was integrated into the units of the

20     Croatian Defence Council and, later on during the times of war, had to

21     care for the wounded, unfortunately, both civilians and soldiers, and so

22     on and so forth.  How did we do that?  To put it simply, we toured all of

23     our settlements, the settlements with a major Croatian population, and by

24     and large those with mixed population, because we were working together

25     with Muslims, Bosniaks, and in those settlements we decided which points

Page 38877

 1     would be suitable to receive wounded, if that was the need, because there

 2     was an evident threat of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Primarily, we relied

 3     on our own civilian health institutions that existed there, and I'm

 4     talking about medical centres here.

 5             Besides having toured all those settlements, together with a

 6     specialist we also envisaged within the medical centres the so-called

 7     reception departments that receive wounded, if that was needed.

 8             What we did at the time we did together with Muslims and also

 9     with the Serbs who resided in the area.  All of us together volunteered

10     to establish a very serious preparation.

11             Later on, when the military -- the so-called military units were

12     already established at the municipal levels, we issued an order -- or,

13     rather, we requested from the medical centres to appoint the so-called

14     municipal medical heads that would somehow accompany the units which

15     existed and were organised at the municipal level.

16             Later on, when the brigades had already been formed after the HVO

17     had been reorganised, we followed that reorganisation by assisting in

18     logistics terms.  We formed the Medical Service in the units of the

19     Croatian Defence Council.

20             I omitted to say that officially the so-called Main Medical Staff

21     was established, and its tasks were the ones that I've already mentioned,

22     and its task was also to be integrated and work by extending assistance

23     to everybody, irrespective of whether they were civilians or soldiers.

24     The only thing that we could rely on at the time was civilian medical

25     service, i.e., medical centres.  Later on, many of these medical centres,

Page 38878

 1     due to the circumstances of war, become the so-called war hospitals, and

 2     the war hospitals that we had established as such were also tasked with

 3     looking after the wounded.

 4             At a certain point in time, we lost communication with the large

 5     medical centres which before that both Muslims and Croatians used.  That

 6     was before the war.  Sarajevo was isolated, and a lot of specialists

 7     remained in the large medical institutions, and that's why we suffered a

 8     lack of doctors, equipment, and medical supplies.  The Main Medical Staff

 9     was primarily tasked with providing logistical support or medical support

10     to the points that I have already mentioned.

11             Unfortunately, the conflict between Muslims and Croats which

12     happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina resulted in the Croatian territories

13     of Bosnia and Herzegovina hitting even harder times.  You have to know

14     that at one point in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croats were confined to

15     several completely isolated enclaves in Central Bosnia.

16        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, we will come to that.  I apologise for interrupting.

17     I just wanted to take things at a time.

18             You have just now explained how the Medical Staff was

19     established, the Main Medical Staff.  Can you please tell me whether you

20     were the head of that medical staff?

21        A.   Yes, I had the honour to serve as the head of the Main Medical

22     Staff during the war, and later on, when the Defence Department of the

23     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was established, it was integrated

24     into the Defence Department.  And later on, I assumed a different role.

25     Actually, I was still the head of that Staff, but I was also appointed

Page 38879

 1     the assistant of the head of the Defence Department, and then when that

 2     Defence Department was reorganised and became a ministry, I became the

 3     assistant minister for defence within the Croatian Defence Council.

 4        Q.   Who and when appointed you as the assistant minister for health

 5     within the Defence Department?

 6        A.   I believe that I was appointed sometime in September, I believe,

 7     1992.  I was appointed by the Croatian Defence Council.  Up to then, we

 8     already had an organised service on the ground which was then

 9     incorporated into the Croatian Defence Council, into its military part,

10     that in a ceratin way defended the territories I've already spoken about.

11        Q.   In a certain way, you've already answered and preempted my next

12     question.  My next question is:  What was the task of the

13     Health Department, and what were the principles of functioning within the

14     Health Department?  I would kindly ask you to tell us very briefly, what

15     were your guiding principles?

16        A.   Our task was to assist everybody and extend assistance to

17     everybody who needed our help, and this is really what transpired.

18     Everybody who needed help, irrespective of whether they were civilians or

19     soldiers, irrespective of their ethnic background, they would receive our

20     assistance.  That was our main task.  And as for our guiding principles

21     that we -- that governed us, it was volunteerism.  We could not order any

22     one doctor to be engaged and to help us.

23             It is well known that during the war, a lot of doctors, due to

24     the war, had left the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

25     interestingly enough and very important would be to mention here, I

Page 38880

 1     compiled my Master's thesis on the subject of the organisation of the

 2     War Medical Service as a model; and I could then say that approximately

 3     3.000 doctors had left the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and about

 4     6700 medical technicians or other medical personnel had left.  It was a

 5     major drain, and that's why we did not have a choice.  We worked with

 6     those who were willing to work as volunteers, and our main principle was

 7     openness to everybody.  We could not do anything else.  We did not have a

 8     choice under the circumstances, faced with the situation.  We had to

 9     develop the spirit of openness, and this was a good thing in all that

10     misfortune, because our policy was based on accepting any expert

11     [as interpreted], irrespective of their ethnic background.

12             A very important and interesting characteristic of our service

13     was the fact that irrespective of ethnic background, we extended help to

14     people, and we also worked together, all of us, without regard to our

15     ethnic background.

16             For example, in Mostar during the war, we had two surgeons, and

17     both -- we had actually several surgeons, not many, but two of them were

18     Serbs.  Throughout the entire war, they remained in Mostar and helped

19     people.  We had just one anesthesiologist, who was a Muslim.  I don't

20     want to go into great length.  You can check that, and you can actually

21     see what the meaning was of that openness, the common spirit, and

22     fighting and struggle for every single patient.

23        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, which services were part of the Health Department,

24     if you can remember?

25        A.   It was a long time ago.  I'm sure you will appreciate it, but let

Page 38881

 1     me try and remember.  We had several re-organisations within the

 2     framework of our Medical Corps, and it all depended on the situation in

 3     the field.  However, once we were integrated into the Defence Department

 4     of the HVO, then, within our own Health Department, we had the

 5     Main Medical Staff as the logistical part of the healthcare.  Then we

 6     also had a department for looking after the wounded, and the third thing

 7     was the Control and Inspection Services, because our task was very

 8     important, not only when it came to the building up of the policies of

 9     the health system, but also its control and supervision, the control and

10     supervision of its functioning.

11             Later on, we were again reorganised as the situation demanded and

12     as the need demanded at any given time.

13             JUDGE PRANDLER:  You really must comply with the request to slow

14     down, because it is impossible for the interpreters to follow you.  Thank

15     you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I apologise.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before listening to you,

18     Doctor, I have a technical question to ask you.

19             If I understand you rightly, in the case of Mostar, a Croatian

20     who was injured would be operated on by a Serbian surgeon, and the

21     anesthetician [as interpreted] was a Muslim; that was the situation you

22     described?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened often, very often.

24     However, Your Honour, this was a very common occurrence, but it did not

25     happen all the time.  I just provided that by way of an example and said

Page 38882

 1     that we had two Serb doctors and one anesthesiologist who was a Muslim.

 2     We also had other doctors.  We had Croats and others, and they looked

 3     after the patients, irrespective of their national background.

 4             However, I need to mention the permanent lack of medical

 5     personnel.  Save for the anesthesiologist whom I mentioned, we had to

 6     seek others, other persons who would be in charge of anesthesiology, and

 7     in addition to the surgeons that we had, their numbers were never

 8     sufficient.  We had to seek others, and we managed to make due in order

 9     to make the system work.  However, we were all the time faced with a lack

10     of personnel and a lack of equipment.  That was our biggest problem.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I know that you are a temperamental person and it is

13     a problem for you to speak slowly.  However, we will need to slow down,

14     and we will need to make short breaks between my question and your

15     answer.

16             You just explained which services existed within the Health

17     Department.  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who the heads of

18     these services were subordinated to?

19        A.   Since I was the head of the organisation of health in the

20     Croatian Defence Council, heads of particular departments, as we called

21     them, were subordinated directly to me.  In a certain way, I was their

22     commander, as it were, although we were primarily colleagues.

23        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, we're talking about things in general, and you told

24     us already, but let me ask you again.  You said that throughout all that

25     time in the territory of the HZ-HB, there was a lack of medical

Page 38883

 1     personnel, doctors and all the other medical personnel.  Could you please

 2     provide us with a general assessment as to whether the Health Service of

 3     the HZ-HB had at its disposal enough medical supplies and equipment,

 4     including drugs and medicines?

 5        A.   All that time, we were faced with a major and terrible lack of

 6     everything.  There was a scarcity of everything.  There was a lack of

 7     medicines, equipment, and people; and this especially applied to the

 8     areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was inhabited by Croats, who were

 9     completely isolated from the rest of the state, like, for example, the

10     hospital in Nova Bila, Zepce, Kiseljak, and so on and so forth.  For

11     example, in Orasje, the situation was bad.

12        Q.   It transpires from your answers that you were the assistant of

13     the Defence Department in the Health Sector -- I apologise, in the

14     Defence Department.  What I would like to know is this:  Could you tell

15     us whether, in the Defence Department, you had meetings of the collegium,

16     and how often did they take place, if they did?

17        A.   We doctors maintained frequent contacts.  We worked together in

18     our medical staffs.  However, when it comes to the Defence Department, I

19     would like to say that, yes, we did have meetings of the collegium.  I

20     can't tell you exactly how often they took place.  It was every now and

21     then.  Sometimes it would happen every week, sometimes once in a

22     fortnight, but I believe that it was done every time a need arose.

23        Q.   Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how decisions were

24     made at the collegium, at least at those meetings that you attended and

25     of which you have direct experience?

Page 38884

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the microphones that are not needed

 2     be switched off, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In view of the nature of the work

 4     that I carried out, and practically constantly being out in the field,

 5     going here and there, I was perhaps not able to attend every single

 6     collegium meeting.  I did attend them, but not every single one.  And

 7     when I attended them, the characteristic was a discussion about problems

 8     in the way certain positions were adopted, and if any of the assistants

 9     had some proposals, they were discussed.  And, in a way, after the

10     discussion, certain conclusions were adopted.

11        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, you, as an assistant in the Health Sector, as part

12     of the Defence Department, how independent were you in decision-making in

13     decisions that pertain to your field of expertise?

14        A.   Well, since I am a doctor and because, in a way, we already had a

15     pretty structured health service set up already, to a large degree I

16     would say, well, I don't remember having any problems in communication,

17     or in being independent, or in the implementation of the things that I

18     was in charge of, so I had a high degree of freedom or autonomy and

19     independence.

20        Q.   Yes, I can see that everything that is happening around you in

21     the courtroom can maybe distract you, but --

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  I just have a

23     question, something specific to ask from the witness.

24             Witness, you were an assistant in the Department of the Defence

25     or the Defence Department, in charge of health matters.  At the same

Page 38885

 1     time, was there also a chief of the Health Department within the HVO, and

 2     what were your -- what was your relationship with him?  Because you speak

 3     of your independence and so on, so I would like to know.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is an excellent

 5     question, and I'm glad that you have put it.

 6             At the civilian level, there was a chief of the head -- of the

 7     Health Service, and later he was the minister of the Health Service, and

 8     that is my dear colleague Mr. Ivan Sarac.  When we're talking about

 9     autonomy of my work, what I mean is the part that has to do with

10     hospitals, with the structuring of the service in the military units of

11     the HVO, and he was in charge of that part that did not belong to that.

12     These were civilian institutions, such as health sectors which were not

13     part of that sector.  But we did coordinate our work constantly because

14     everything that we had in the HVO units was something that we were

15     borrowing from the civilian health sector, so that is that so-called

16     integral structure of the Health Service, and it's known in the world of

17     health organisation.  It's something that is described as a model of

18     organising the work of the Health Sector.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I am going to ask you to explain, if you can, this

22     degree of autonomy that you had in decision-making.  When you attended

23     the collegiums and when you discussed other areas, and when other

24     assistants, assistants from the Defence Department of Mr. Stojic also

25     attended, were you able to draw any conclusions about their autonomy and

Page 38886

 1     proposing and decision-making?  Did you have any position on that?

 2        A.   I think that I did not mention the fact that this level of

 3     autonomy that I had to a certain degree, and the kind of professional

 4     relationship that I had with the chief of the sector, was something that

 5     others had too.  I don't know what the relationship of each individual

 6     assistant was.  It's something that I cannot know.  But on the basis of

 7     what I saw, and based on my attendance and what I was able to see at the

 8     collegium meetings, the relationship of others also was professional.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, you also touched upon this topic.  Can you explain

10     to the Trial Chamber how the Health Service was organised in the HVO

11     HZ-HB units?  What I'm primarily thinking of here -- well, you said that

12     first they were municipal HVO units and then the brigades began to be

13     structured.  So from that time-period on, what was the health

14     organisation like in the units?

15        A.   When you say "units," what I mean are military units, the

16     military component of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council.  So as an HQ

17     body, in a way, in a professional sense, we coordinated the work and, in

18     a way, were setting up that structure, as such; and it was set up in such

19     a way that each, let's say, squad had its own trained medic, each company

20     had a higher-trained medical technician, and that every brigade had its

21     own doctor.  The brigade also had its own doctor.  And what is important

22     to say is also that, in a way, we were implementing a policy of the

23     highest possible degree of autonomy of the Health Corps within the HVO.

24     And then, as opposed to the previous Yugoslav model, we tried, wherever

25     this was possible, to extract the Health Sector from the

Page 38887

 1     Logistics Sector, as such.  In some places, we were successful; in

 2     others, we were not.  This depended on the commander of the unit.  The

 3     goal was that those doctors were given the status of assistants so that

 4     they could be as independent as possible in their work and medical care.

 5     I mean, I could speak a lot more about that topic, but I think that that

 6     is enough.

 7        Q.   Well, I wish we could have as much time as we wanted on each

 8     topic so that you could explain as much as you wished, but unfortunately

 9     our time is limited, so sometimes I would have to stop you, even though

10     that sometimes can be to my detriment.

11             So in any case, can you please tell me, when you said that there

12     were people in charge of the health assignments in the units, who were

13     they subordinated to?

14        A.   I think that I answered that question already.  At the level of

15     the military regions, we had the health chief, so he had the status of

16     the commander of the military sector.  Then we had the assistant, who was

17     the assistant of the brigade commander.  So in the hierarchy, when we're

18     talking about the military structure, they were an integral part of a

19     certain formation and they were directly responsible to the commander.

20             When we're talking about this professional aspect, for example,

21     when we're talking about some specific circumstances, for example, the

22     implementation of preventive health, then from the

23     Administration Health Service or the Medical Corps HQ, we could issue

24     instructions.  I would even write orders, because I didn't know how to

25     communicate in other ways.  But, anyway, this was something that we used

Page 38888

 1     in order to communicate professionally amongst each other.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] We could look at a few documents

 3     now.  If the witness does not have with you documents -- the document

 4     binder, perhaps the usher could give you those documents, but in any case

 5     could you please look at the first binder of documents and now let's look

 6     at this topic.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at the first document, 2D567.  It's a

 8     decision on the internal organisation of the Defence Department of the

 9     17th of October.

10        A.   I'm sorry, I would need some help here.  2D --

11        Q.   That should be the first document.  If you have the first binder,

12     it's after this list.  I think you have the documents marked with

13     stickers at the side.

14        A.   Yes, yes, thank you very much.  I found it.

15        Q.   So it's a decision about the internal organisation of the Defence

16     Department, adopted by Bruno Stojic, and approved by Mr. Boban on the

17     10th of November, 1992.  Could you please look at item 5 pursuant to this

18     decision in order to see how matters from the Health Sector were

19     resolved, and it says in the chief for -- in the health section -- could

20     the interpreters please look at the original on e-court.

21             "In the Medical Sector, chief of the Medical Care for the

22     Wounded, chief of the Medical Staff, chief of the Medical Brigade Corps,

23     chief of the Control Inspections Service and directors of war hospitals

24     are appointed by the head of the Defence Department at the proposal of

25     the assistant head for the Medical Services."

Page 38889

 1             Mr. Bagaric, according to this decision more or less from the

 2     month of September, when you were appointed assistant chief, did you

 3     propose -- and I'm going to only limit it to the chief of the brigade

 4     Medical Corps referred to here.  Can you recall how and in which way were

 5     these people appointed to the position of chief of the brigade medical

 6     corps?

 7        A.   Things were as you have just read out.  However, before we joined

 8     the Defence Department, in a certain way at the municipal level, and I'm

 9     talking about the Main Medical Corps, we appointed people, and this was

10     more a matter of agreement as to who that would be.  When it came to the

11     establishment of the brigades, within the brigades the commander or the

12     medical service that he relied on - I'm talking about doctors in the

13     medical centres - in a certain way they were the ones who selected, who

14     agreed as to who would be what in the unit.  By and large, but not

15     always, but very often this would be done at that proposal of the brigade

16     commander.  I did not see a problem there, and there were no problems

17     with the functioning at all.

18        Q.   Very well.

19        A.   Perhaps we proposed somebody somewhere, I cannot remember,

20     although this also applied.

21        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 2D702.  This is a decision of

22     your appointment on the 8th of September, 1992, and this accords with

23     your recollection of what happened; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 2D1352, please.  I would like

Page 38890

 1     you to look at page 2D660126.  I'm just waiting for it to appear on

 2     e-court.  And if you can look at the list, this is the Health Sector and

 3     this is the salary list for November 1992.  There is a list here of

 4     persons, and perhaps you can tell me about how many persons worked in the

 5     Health Sector from September, when you were appointed assistant chief,

 6     until the end of, let's say, 1993.  What were the approximate numbers in

 7     the service?

 8        A.   Well, it's not that important.  I think that this is the first

 9     salary that was received.  Before that, there were no salaries issued.

10     But in any case, this number varied because of the requirements, but also

11     because of that element of the volunteers.  Simply, somebody who was

12     available could have left for their own personal reasons to do something

13     else or to leave their job in the army, so the number ranged from 25 to

14     30 people, all in all, and they were directly subordinated to me.

15        Q.   Can we look at 2D752.  This is a diagram of the Health Sector,

16     and for the purpose of the transcript I would like to say this is

17     document 2D, that is the decision on internal structuring, 2D567; in

18     paragraph 13, it states that the diagram is an integral part of the

19     decision.  So I would just like to you comment on the diagram and

20     explain, once again, this relationship of subordination, who was

21     subordinated to you, and how can that be clarified with the help of this

22     diagram.

23        A.   Well, it's very simple.  It's clearly indicated here, in a way.

24     So the Health or the Medical Sector had three entities that were a part

25     of it.  That was the Healthcare Sector, the Inspection Unit and the

Page 38891

 1     Medical Corps HQ, which was the Medical/Logistical Sector.  The other two

 2     were operational sectors that had jobs in the field and were touring and

 3     so on.  The chiefs of these sections were directly subordinated to me,

 4     and in their work, as can be seen here, in a way relies on the healthcare

 5     for the wounded.  They are in charge of the surgical staff, the medics,

 6     the trained medical personnel that was in lower units.  So, in a way,

 7     that was the professional chain that was part of the structure of the

 8     Medical Corps of the HVO.

 9             What is important to mention here, and I didn't mention it

10     before, and I apologise to the Trial Chamber, is the following:  The war

11     hospitals that we had, about 20, also had a very high degree of autonomy

12     and, in a way, they relied on our medical care service.  They were

13     suffering from a shortage of doctors, of medical equipment and so on, so

14     they provided support to us and we provided support to them.  So the

15     Medical Corps had several sections.  One of them was the Donor Sector, so

16     it was a unit that was in charge of gathering funds either from

17     international organisations or from individuals or international

18     organisations.  Their job was to collect enough equipment and medicines

19     in order for us to be able to work.  So this is more or less the

20     structure.

21        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I would just like to mention, since we're looking at

22     the diagram, part of the Medical Corps HQ.  Later, we're going to discuss

23     the more detailed work of this service, but we had the

24     epidemiological/toxicological service, so can you tell us what the

25     primary task of this service was?

Page 38892

 1        A.   This service was perhaps the most important service, in addition

 2     to the hospitals and the healthcare for the wounded, so this would have

 3     been the most important service within the Medical Staff.  Its role was

 4     to look after the hygiene and the epidemiology situation about

 5     prophylaxis and anti-epidemics measures.

 6             In the entire area where our units existed and irrespective of

 7     the type of the institution, wherever we thought that an infection could

 8     break out and epidemics could break out, and whenever and wherever it was

 9     necessary to carry out constant surveillance and control.  In addition to

10     that, this service was in charge of the ongoing education, because we

11     know, when we're talking about the units of the Croatian Defence Council,

12     that those were people who had never been in the army, or just a few of

13     them were.  And when we're talking about a medical staff we have to know

14     that those people knew virtually nothing or very little about war or

15     military healthcare, so at the same time we had to educate all of our

16     staff to bring them up to a high standard.

17             I apologise to the interpreters.

18        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I would like us to look at the next three documents.

19     Let us just locate the things that you have talked about, and let's see

20     what establishment positions are we talking about within the units when

21     it comes to the Medical Corps.

22             Could you please look at 2D927.  That's our next document.  This

23     is the prescribed establishment of the command of the operation zone

24     which was signed by Mr. Stojic.  When we're talking about the operation

25     zone, could you look at position number 30, which should be on page 4 or

Page 38893

 1     the penultimate page, both in English and in Croatia.  It says at the top

 2     "The chief of the Medical Service," and then it does that say "chief,"

 3     but it does say "Medical Service."  Would that be the person that was a

 4     member of the operation zone by establishment?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let's now look at 2D1370.  That's our next document.  This is a

 7     diagram of the establishment of the brigade.  On page 4 in the Croatian

 8     version and on page 6 in the English version, under item number 8, could

 9     you please take a look at what it says there.  It says:  "The chief of

10     the Medical Service"; would that be correct?  This is page 4 or the

11     penultimate page.

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.

13        Q.   So this is the position in the establishment of the brigade, that

14     would be the person in charge of the Medical Service?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look at another document.  P566 is the

17     number, and that's another diagram, the diagram of the establishment of a

18     battalion, in both Croatian and English diagrams -- versions, the diagram

19     is on page 2, and under the Logistics Platoon to the very right, it says

20     the "Logistics Platoon," it says "Technical Department" and it also says

21     "Medical Department," and "Quarter-master's Department."  Can we agree

22     that we're talking about a department that existed in --

23        A.   Yes.  I apologise, that's how it should have been.  However, due

24     to the lack of personnel and staff, as a rule the positions were not

25     filled, at least not -- they were not filled to the extent that they

Page 38894

 1     should have been filled, due to the circumstances.

 2        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I'm now going to ask you to look at the following

 3     document, which is 2D01540 [Realtime transcript read in error, "2D540"]

 4     this should be the following document in your binder.

 5        A.   I can see it.

 6        Q.   Very well.  This is a document that you gave me during your

 7     proofing session.  It had been sent to you by Mr. Bruno Stojic, where it

 8     says because of the problems with the command and control of the units of

 9     the HVO, when it comes to the war healthcare, and in order to resolve the

10     situation which arose as a result of the lack of respect for military

11     organisation "I hereby issue the following order."  Could you please

12     explain, how does the order deal with the issue of subordination and the

13     chain of command?  And this in military terms, could you please comment?

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just a correction to the transcript.  On page 9,

15     line 17, the document number is indicated as 2D540, and I have the

16     feeling it is 2D01540.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  You are

18     absolutely right.  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   2D01540, I suppose that we all have it and see it.  It was just

20     an error in the transcript.  I'll bear that in mind.

21             Go ahead, sir.

22        A.   I assume that this order was drafted at my own proposal.  I can't

23     be sure of that, but I assume.  And the reason was the lack of respect in

24     the field of all the things that I've already spoken about.  So this is

25     just an explanation and an instruction as to how to proceed.  And in a

Page 38895

 1     certain way, this confirms what I have just been talking about, and that

 2     is that the doctors, at unit levels, were responsible for the healthcare,

 3     and their position was that of the assistant chief of the unit, and this

 4     is very important for the autonomy and for the most efficient work of the

 5     service.  It was important for them to have a direct link with the

 6     commander, and they were also reporting to the commander of the unit for

 7     everything that had to be done in line with the actions of the unit.

 8             I repeat, when it comes to the professional part, they were also

 9     connected with us, of course.

10        Q.   Let's look at item 6, where it says that the chief of the war

11     healthcare of the operations zone for the functioning of

12     wartime healthcare in the operations zone, and in professional sense, he

13     submits reports and is responsible to the Ministry of Defence Sector for

14     Healthcare.

15        A.   Yes, this is precisely what I've told you, and in professional

16     terms, he was responsible to the person that we saw in the diagram, the

17     person who was in charge of the service for the healthcare for the

18     wounded in the Healthcare Sector.  That's the link.

19        Q.   And now when we're talking about the problems of functioning and

20     the chain of command, this is something that we will discuss at a later

21     stage.  However, we will keep in mind your answer, where you said that

22     there were problems in the field from time to time.

23             Can we now look at the last document, which is P6379 -- P06379 is

24     the number of the document, the last one in the series about the topic I

25     wanted to introduce to the Tribunal, and show the Tribunal what positions

Page 38896

 1     you held and what you did, and that's why I'm showing you the decision on

 2     the appointment of the commission for investing war crimes in the

 3     territory of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and here you can see

 4     your own name.  Under number 6, the commission was set up on the 3rd of

 5     November, 1993.

 6             Mr. Bagaric, did you know that you had been appointed, and did

 7     you participate in the work of this commission?

 8        A.   This is a document that I never saw before, and I don't know

 9     whether I was appointed, and the commission never became operational, and

10     I'm not excluding that or maybe instead of me there was somebody else, a

11     colleague of mine who bore the same name and a different family name,

12     which is something that the honourable Judge asked me about, and he was

13     in charge of civilian healthcare.  That may also be the case, because I

14     never saw this document before and I never personally participated in the

15     work of this commission.

16        Q.   This will suffice.  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Bagaric, within the framework of the Healthcare Sector in the

18     Defence Department, and I'm talking primarily about you, did you submit

19     certain reports?  And later on we will see whether anybody reported to

20     you.  Did you submit certain reports, who did you report to, and how

21     often?  Can you remember that?

22        A.   Of course, of course I submitted written reports.  I provided

23     certain documents.  I drafted certain documents, and those documents were

24     actually prepared by my colleagues who were in charge of certain

25     activities, and those were our reports which we would, from time to time,

Page 38897

 1     send to the Defence Department which was later on the Ministry of

 2     Defence.  However, I also remember that we often sent reports to other

 3     addressees as well, to some international organisations, to some

 4     institutions who expected information from us in order for them to be

 5     able to act and help us, and this is what we did.  I can't remember, but

 6     I repeat that this was not a regular occurrence, it never happened every

 7     seven or every fifteen days.  It was more or less twice a month,

 8     sometimes even once a month, but I believe that it depended on the

 9     situation and on the need at hand.

10        Q.   And now I would like to ask you to look at certain documents that

11     speak about that.  The first one would be 2D721, which should be the next

12     one in your binder.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This is a report for January 1993, but there is no precise date.

15     Could you please confirm?  I can't say whether this is your signature or

16     not.  You can confirm that for us, and would you say that this is the

17     type of report that you possibly submitted to various addressees?

18        A.   I must admit that this report is not typical of our work.  It

19     lacks some numbers and everything else that a heading should contain.

20     However, I do not doubt the correctness and the accuracy of this report,

21     because I can see who signed it.  I'm familiar with the signature,

22     although the majority of these documents that were sent from our

23     Healthcare Sector, my name was already indicated as the commander.  But I

24     spoke about the high level of collegial relationship, and I trusted my

25     men, and they did not have to wait for my signature to be put on the

Page 38898

 1     document.  They could sign it themselves.  Very often, they would.  That

 2     would follow telephone consultations if I was not present.

 3        Q.   Can you please look at the following document, which is 2D739.

 4        A.   This is --

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may quickly ask a question regarding the

 6     previous document.

 7             I don't know whether something escaped me, but can you explain

 8     the abbreviation "HE"?  "Extremely poor HE situation, HE team."

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you for your question,

10     Your Honour.  This is Hygiene and Epidemiology Service.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You've looked at document 2D739.  Again, this is your signature,

14     but it was signed on your behalf.  Just briefly tell us -- you already

15     started telling us that people --

16        A.   Yes, this is a more typical report, although it is very short.

17     However, this is the kind of document that we sent.  This is actually a

18     report for a certain period of time.  This one is from the 13th of July,

19     1993, to 2nd August 1993, the report on the functioning of the Healthcare

20     Sector.  This could be one of the more regular reports, as it were.

21        Q.   Can you please look at the following document.  I'm just showing

22     you the reports that the Defence has been able to locate.  I don't know

23     whether they're yours or not, and I don't know that there were more of

24     them.  The next one is 2D738.  That's the next report that we have been

25     able to locate among the documents.

Page 38899

 1        A.   This is my signature, and this is it, yes.  This is a report that

 2     I sent.

 3        Q.   And can we have another, which is 2D714.  The period is

 4     7 September to 13 September 1993?

 5        A.   Yes, that's it.

 6        Q.   Very well, thank you.  Mr. Bagaric, on behalf of the Healthcare

 7     Sector did you compile reports that could be half annual, annual, and did

 8     you send such reports to the Defence Department?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And now can we look at P00128.  This is our next document?

11        A.   My apologies.  Could you repeat?

12        Q.   P00128.  This should be the next document in your binder after

13     the previous one, after the one that you are now looking at.

14        A.   P00 --

15        Q.   Yes, you have it in the electronic courtroom, so maybe you can

16     rely on that.  I am sure that you will find it easier.

17             Can we now look at page 14 in the Croatian language, which is

18     also page 13 in the English language.

19             At the beginning, you saw the front page and the title, the

20     report on the work --

21        A.   I apologise.  I can't follow you.  I don't have the document and

22     I can't follow you.

23        Q.   You don't have it in the binder?

24        A.   No, I don't see it.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we ask the assistance of the

Page 38900

 1     usher?  Can you please assist the witness?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the number?

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It's P after the document that you

 4     have just looked at, P00128.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 0018 -- oh, sorry, yes, I've got

 6     it.  I'm sorry, I apologise.  Thank you very much, sir.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So this is a report on the work of the HZ-HB for 1992.  It's a

 9     collective report, and you have noticed yourself that it says "Mostar,

10     March 1992," which is an obvious error because this is a report that was

11     compiled in March 1993.  Page 4 in the Croatian and page 13 in the

12     English versions speak about healthcare.  It says here, and I'm just

13     going to read or underline some things that you've already spoken about.

14     You said:

15             "In the month of February 1992, we started working on the

16     establish of the Healthcare service.  On the 8th of March, 1992, we

17     established the Main Medical Staff headquartered in Tomislavgrad."

18             I am going to ask you to look at the last paragraph, which is the

19     part that you've already spoken about.  Can you please skip a few

20     paragraphs here.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My apologies, because it took

22     me some time to check something.

23             Witness, I'd like to come back to the previous document, which is

24     a report for the time-frame.  It is document 2D714.  It is a report dated

25     September the 13th -- the 7th.  A detail struck me.  It seems that

Page 38901

 1     General Praljak is doing something for one of these sons of

 2     Mr. Silajdzic.  This Haris Silajdzic, was he a Bosnian?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I don't see in the

 4     text what you are referring to.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can help the

 6     witness in the Croatian text.  The previous document, 2D714, third

 7     paragraph, please, third paragraph on the first page on the last

 8     sentence.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Silajdzic has leukemia?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that has nothing to do

13     with Silajdzic, because this is Haris Silajdzia [phoen].  Your Honour,

14     it's a typical situation where, in a way, an intervention was required,

15     and this was often done in order to help a child that needed help.

16     I think that that has nothing to do with Silajdzic.  The last name here

17     is Silajdzia.  It's a different last name.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you sure?  Fine, I was just

19     checking.

20             Let's proceed.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I think, yes.  I assume

22     that they are not related.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe that

24     Mr. Praljak will talk about that, too.  We had an opportunity, actually,

25     to see another document that pertains to this evacuation.  I think we

Page 38902

 1     already looked at it in the courtroom, so I am coming back to the report.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can just say one thing.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This talks about what I was saying

 5     earlier, that the situation in our hospitals was quite serious, and in

 6     Rama -- it's a village, we didn't have a hospital there, so Mr. Praljak

 7     here intervened quite honorably, because a child cannot be treated in

 8     that hospital because it's suffering from leukemia; so this is evidence

 9     of what I mentioned before about the problems that we were encountering.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Doctor, I know you have very sensitive about this question that

12     I'm going to put to you right now unfortunately; well, I understand you

13     completely, but I must put the question.  This child just happened to be

14     of Bosnian ethnicity, and we can affirm that based on first and last

15     name.  I know this is something that makes you angry, because you talk

16     about the actions of medical workers and their principals, who should not

17     pay any attention to that, but I need to ask you about this in the

18     courtroom.

19        A.   Well, I wondered about this, because if in the war we did not pay

20     attention to who was what, we worked together and we treated everyone,

21     then it seems senseless to pay attention to something like that.  But I

22     assume that a child with a name such as Haris Silajdzia is a child of

23     Muslim ethnicity.

24        Q.   There will be more questions like this, but you must understand

25     that the name and the indication of ethnicity according to the name is

Page 38903

 1     something that is not clear to everyone in the courtroom in the same way

 2     that it is clear to you.

 3             So let us now look at 0128.  I indicated on page 14, I said this

 4     was actually page 13 in the English, and the last paragraph begins --

 5     we're already on page 14 in the English, and it's the passage before last

 6     of the section that refers to the health, and it says:

 7             "By forming of the Defence Department of the HZ-HB, the General

 8     Medical Staff, together with the Service for the Welfare of the Wounded

 9     and the Control and Inspection Service, to form our Health Sector."

10             Mr. Bagaric, this is actually what you talked about, about the

11     functioning of the Main Medical Corps headquarters, and that it was part

12     of the Medical or the Health Sector?

13        A.   I apologise.  Can you tell me what page it is?

14        Q.   It's page 14 in the Croatian.

15        A.   I don't see page 14.  Ah, no, no, excuse me, excuse me.  I see it

16     now.

17        Q.   The last paragraph, Mr. Bagaric.

18        A.   Yes.  Well, actually, that confirms what I said before, with the

19     formation of the Defence Department and the Main General Medical Corps,

20     united with the Service for the Welfare of the Wounded and the Control

21     and Inspection Service, form the Health Sector.

22        Q.   The evacuation of wounded and civilians from besieged towns, for

23     example, Jajce was organised, was that one of the important actions of

24     the Health Sector at that time?

25        A.   Yes, it was very important, very important.  This was a time when

Page 38904

 1     the Muslims and Croats from Bosnia defended with full faith the territory

 2     and were all together part of the HVO.  We're talking about Jajce, but

 3     because of the Serb strength, we had to leave the town.  And previously

 4     these doctors, whom I am proud of and who I mentioned before, the ones

 5     who were at the head of these services, personally, in personnel carriers

 6     or, rather, in buses; so in improvised transportation that happened to be

 7     armoured, pulled out all the wounded from Jajce, including all the

 8     Muslims and the Croats, before the fall of Jajce.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, we're going to return to this topic a bit later, but

10     now, since it is the time for the break, I would just like to ask you

11     about a piece of information that is significant.

12             Can you tell me when this is happening, the period you're talking

13     about, the fall of Jajce?

14        A.   Well, I have a problem really with numbers, with time.  This is

15     something that is quite condensed to me, this wartime period.  I think

16     this was in late 1992, so it was probably September or October when Jajce

17     fell.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bagaric.

19             Your Honours, can we now go on a break and then before we move on

20     to our next topic.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             Before we resume, Mr. Witness, the Chamber would like you to

Page 38905

 1     answer perhaps at a slower pace, because the interpreters have problems.

 2     We know that you are a very good speaker, but please try and control the

 3     speed of your delivery.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I'm going to ask you -- well, earlier we saw a

 7     report for the first six months of 1992.  Can you look at document P4699.

 8     That should be the next document in your binder.  It's a report of the

 9     HVO about the work for the period from January to June 1993.  I'm going

10     to ask you -- yes, 1993 -- to look at page 29 in the Croatian, and that

11     is page 19 in the English, and just tell me when you've found it.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This is where the report begins its section on the Health

14     Service.  I'm going to go to page 30.  It's a large report.  Everyone can

15     look.  I'm going to focus on the third paragraph on page 30, and that is

16     the last paragraph on page 19 in the English, and it says:

17             "At the moment, the greatest problem is the means of transport,

18     primarily off-road vehicles, medical vehicles, which are practically

19     nonexistent but which are essential for the transport of the wounded."

20             And then it says this problem is particularly evident in the

21     Northern Herzegovina and Central Bosnia sectors, and then it goes on to

22     talk about the lack of professional medical staff.

23             In terms of the means of transport, you emphasised this here as

24     one of the problems in your report, it is one of the problems that is

25     mentioned first, can you please tell Their Honours what the situation was

Page 38906

 1     in terms of the transport vehicles?

 2        A.   Well, this primarily refers to vehicles -- emergency medical

 3     vehicles, ambulances, which were meant for the units in the field to

 4     transport the wounded from inaccessible terrain, and that is why it says

 5     here explicitly that these are all-terrain vehicles.  But generally there

 6     was a constant shortage of vehicles for the transport and care of our

 7     wounded.

 8        Q.   Can we now look at page 31, paragraph 2, and in the English that

 9     is paragraph 4 on page 20.  It talks about the Epidemiological and

10     Toxicological Service, which you said was part of the Main Medical Corps

11     HQ, and there is a sentence in the middle of the paragraph which says

12     that the main task of this service is the prevention of infectious

13     diseases in the -- in units of the armed forces of the HZ-HB.  The

14     training programme included the following: medical inspection of the

15     water supply; medical inspection of food; inspection of military

16     accommodation, both in barracks and at the front; medical inspection of

17     refugees and displaced persons, with the aim of preventing the spread of

18     contagious diseases amongst the armed forces of the HZ-HB; the disposal

19     of waste, both in barracks and at the front.  And it goes on to say

20     tetanus vaccination, implementation of DDD measures, active search for

21     infected patients and those with signs of infection, a military and

22     medical approach, and a unique wartime medical doctrine in the approach

23     to infectious diseases.

24             Mr. Bagaric, does this actually represent a description of the

25     assignments of the Infectious, Epidemiological and Toxicological Service?

Page 38907

 1        A.   Yes, this is a preventive medical healthcare sector, and there is

 2     an important sentence in the continuation of the text.  The important

 3     aspect of this matter is that:

 4             "Besides oral instructions during medical inspections of troops

 5     before their departure for the front, heads of medical brigades were

 6     given adequate instructions by this service."

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you now to look at another report, and this is a

 8     report for the second half of 1993, from July to December.  This is

 9     P7419.  What I would like to ask you about is actually on page 2.  No,

10     I'm sorry, I apologise, the Health Sector actually is dealt with on

11     page 6.

12             I would like to draw your attention to a detail from this report.

13     In the English, this is on page 3, the fifth sentence from the bottom,

14     where it says:

15             "One of the most serious problems in wartime medical care," and

16     that's the abbreviation "RZ, Ratno Strasno [phoen]," am I correct, "is a

17     shortage of personnel.  A considerable number of medical staff left the

18     HR-HB at the beginning of the war and mostly got jobs in the Republic of

19     Croatia.  Even though the main Medical Corps headquarters did their

20     utmost to have them return, they were not very successful in that."

21             Mr. Bagaric, is what is written in this report for the

22     July/December 1993 period something that could have applied to the entire

23     wartime period?

24        A.   Well, a very brief clarification first.

25             In 1992, we were joining the service or the Medical Corps on a

Page 38908

 1     volunteer basis exclusively, but in time, as the war went on, more and

 2     more people were leaving, dropping out, and they were leaving primarily

 3     for Croatia; so we really did everything that we could, in talking to

 4     them, trying to persuade them, to explain to those who left, but we were

 5     not successful in keeping most of these cadres.  And this is something

 6     that does apply throughout the whole wartime period, both for Croats and

 7     for Bosniaks.

 8        Q.   Can we look at another document on this topic, and this is

 9     2D1536.  It's the next document in your binder.  It is an order by

10     Mr. Boban where, as we can see, it says on the 3rd of June, 1992.

11     Actually, we were dealing with a report for the end of 1993, and now we

12     are returning to the 3rd of June, 1992, where an order is issued to the

13     municipal staffs of the HVO, where it says:

14             "All medical personnel, except those in the Grude Hospital who

15     worked in Mostar, must immediately return to their posts.  All of those

16     who do not follow this command must be fired immediately and criminal

17     charges must be brought against them."

18             Mr. Bagaric, we can see from this that at least from June 1992

19     until the end of 1993, this was a prominent problem, at least pursuant to

20     this document; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct, but this is a particular situation here.

22     We're talking about Mostar.  At the time, I was not in Mostar, and at the

23     request of probably one of the commanders of the Mostar Hospital, the

24     order on this was signed so that people should return to Mostar from

25     neighbouring towns in order to be able to provide medical services.

Page 38909

 1        Q.   Now we're moving briefly to another topic which does deserve more

 2     time, but I'm going to ask you to actually just go through it briefly.

 3             Mr. Bagaric, can you please tell me whether the Health Sector

 4     conducted training in the application of international humanitarian law?

 5        A.   As part of the preventive medical work, on one hand, and, on the

 6     other hand, the section that was called the Sector for Information and

 7     Investigation or Research, sent out these brochures that talk about first

 8     aid and also instructs about the implementation or application of

 9     international humanitarian law.  I saw quite frequently that this was

10     used by the commanders as well, the most responsible people who were at

11     the head of the HVO, because I did see a few commands to that effect, a

12     few orders to that effect.

13        Q.   Let us now look at 2D751.  That would be the next document after

14     this one.  This is a -- is this the brochure that you are talking about?

15        A.   Yes, precisely that one, or perhaps it was a similar one.  There

16     were others, similar ones.

17        Q.   Can we have a clean transcript?  You're saying it's this brochure

18     or similar brochures?  You need to wait for my question to be recorded

19     first.  So this particular brochure or similar ones were distributed to

20     members in the Health Sector who were providing medical services; did I

21     understand you correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Let's look at the next document.  This is P2050.  It's an order

24     signed by Mr. Stojic and Mr. Petkovic of the 24th of April, and it states

25     that there is a need, while providing medical health, to ensure that at

Page 38910

 1     all times your doctors and medical workers' approach to any wounded,

 2     regardless of whether it's a civilian or a member of the enemy

 3     formations, all civilians and all commanders should be treated

 4     exclusively pursuant to international conventions and regulations.  This

 5     was sent to the commanders of operational zones and all other commanders.

 6     You said you had the opportunity to see in the field that certain

 7     commanders also issued orders like this.  Did you also mean this kind of

 8     order as well?

 9        A.   Yes, that is precisely what I was thinking of.  This is one of

10     that kind of order.

11        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, now I'm going to ask you to be as brief as possible,

12     to be as efficient as possible.  I'm not going to say faster, at the

13     expense of quality, but we are going to talk about a topic that concerns

14     reports that were arriving from the field.

15             Let me ask you, first, did you receive reports about the state of

16     the Medical Corps in the HZ-HB?  I emphasised that already when we were

17     looking at your monthly reports and saw some summary results.

18             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Ms. Nozica, I would like to ask you to -- just

19     for a minute to say the following: that on line, I believe - what was

20     it - 11, line 11, "all civilians and all commanders should be treated

21     exclusively pursuant to international conventions and regulations," I

22     believe in this case it is not commanders but all civilians and

23     combatants.  It is what you might have said.  So instead of "commanders"

24     here, it should be "combatants," in accordance with the language of the

25     relevant international conventions.

Page 38911

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may complement.  In the document, actually

 3     it is civilians and prisoners, but I could not recall what you have said

 4     exactly.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was reading from the

 6     document, which is P2050.  In the second paragraph, it says: "According

 7     to civilians and prisoners," so these are the two categories.  This is

 8     exactly what the document says.

 9             Very well.  Thank you very much for your intervention.

10        Q.   Your Honours, Mr. Bagaric, we're coming back to the topic of

11     reports that you may have observed about the situation with the medical

12     care in the territory of the HZ-HB.

13        A.   Yes, we did receive reports more or less often which depended on

14     the area from which they came, and it depended on the situation,

15     obviously.

16        Q.   I'm now going to show you a certain number of reports, but before

17     that, could you please a summary assessment of those reports?  Can you

18     please tell us what they contain?  Was there a template?  Did the reports

19     follow the template, or whether they were sometimes totally off the

20     template, if it existed?

21             I apologise, I apologise.

22        A.   At first, that was done as needed, without any templates to

23     follow.  However, later on there was, indeed, a template introduced, and

24     that template was respected, in a sense.  However, there was a long

25     period of time when we received reports about our dead and wounded; the

Page 38912

 1     names, the family names, where they were wounded, when they died.

 2        Q.   And all those reports and summaries, did they result in summary

 3     reports which provided a total number of wounded and dead?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I know that because of the lack of any

 5     regular communication with every unit, we certainly did not manage to

 6     compile comprehensive reports.  However, that was done and finally

 7     reproduced summary reports in order to be able to follow the situation on

 8     the ground and plan the Healthcare Service accordingly.

 9        Q.   Can we now please look at 2D00222, which should be the following

10     document in your binder.  This document or, rather, these documents that

11     I'm going to show you follow a chronological order which will help us see

12     what was happening during that period of time, and in this particular

13     report the HVO Brigade Eugen Kvaternik from Bugojno, on the 26th of

14     January, 1993, provides a list of wounded combatants in the territory of

15     Bugojno from 24 January 1993.  Later on, we will see what happened --

16     what later happened in Bugojno.

17             And now can we just look at the list from 1 through 20, and you

18     will see the names of that particular brigade which were of Croatian and

19     Muslim origins.  If you look at the names, can you confirm this?

20        A.   Yes.  You can see that a large number of those people were

21     Muslims, Bosniaks, and still members of the HVO.

22        Q.   Can we now look at 2D98, which should be the next document in

23     your binder.  This document was sent from Vitez.  The date is 19th of

24     April.  It was signed by Mr. Drago Dzambas, the chief of the Medical

25     Service of the Operational Zone Central Bosnia; wouldn't that be correct?

Page 38913

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it is a report that we will dwell upon for a little while,

 3     and it says here:

 4             "From April 17 (from 1100 hours) until today, April 19th, the

 5     situation in the territory of Central Bosnia has been rapidly

 6     deteriorating."

 7             In the first part, reference is made to the attacks on the BiH

 8     Army in the municipalities of Vitez, Zen [phoen], Busovaca, in the places

 9     called Kakanj, Konjic, Fojnica, and I repeat, Kakanj, Konjic, Fojnica,

10     and also Zenica, Kiseljak and Kresevo, and the following paragraph says:

11             "At the triage war hospital in Nova Bila (Franciscan Hospital)

12     from the beginning until today, there have been 100 wounded of whom three

13     people died at the hospital.  The number of fallen combatants and

14     civilians in the territory of Central Bosnia ranges from 60 to 65

15     altogether."

16             And the following paragraph, I'm reading from the second

17     sentence, it says:

18             "We are especially asking you to protest with the UNPROFOR,

19     because they transport Muslim soldiers to Travnik, they transport

20     medicines and medical supplies to them, and we, on the other hand, are

21     unable transport our own wounded to the hospital."

22             Later on, we will go back to the hospital in Nova Bila and talk

23     about that, but at the moment could you please explain to the

24     Trial Chamber under what conditions the hospital operated, and could you

25     please say something about the objection of the chief of the Medical

Page 38914

 1     Corps of Central Bosnia about the unequal treatment extended by UNPROFOR

 2     to the Croatian wounded, on the one hand, and the Muslim wounded, on the

 3     other?

 4        A.   First of all, both -- the hospital in Nova Bila was a hospital

 5     that existed in a very typical war environment.  It was housed in a

 6     Franciscan church.  The patients who would be brought there were put on

 7     church benches that were used as beds.  Very few people provided surgical

 8     services with very obsolete equipment, unfortunately.  This report here

 9     that we're looking at primarily concerns the problem with the

10     organisation of the service and caring for the wounded under such

11     circumstances, and I would say that this person is not requesting but

12     imploring somebody to help.  Who is he imploring with?  Everybody.  We

13     were just one of the addressees.  Before that, he must have spoken to the

14     international organisations and he must have addressed them as well.

15             In this particular case, I can't say whether my colleague,

16     Dzambas, was right when he said that UNPROFOR provided unequal help and

17     treated the Croatian side unfairly.  However, I can speak from my own

18     experience and say that during the war, the international organisations

19     disappointed me.  I had expected a more powerful response, without any

20     strings attached.  However, very often, when I personally asked for their

21     help and assistance, they always wanted to strike a balance, they always

22     wanted to see whether the other side received the same, and that's why

23     the help was very often late, particularly from the

24     International Red Cross and other international organisations.

25             Still, one has to say that we have to be very grateful and

Page 38915

 1     recognise those people who came to help us under such dire circumstances.

 2     Without them, the situation would have been even worse, because from them

 3     we could only receive help.

 4        Q.   When we're talking about a hospital in Bila, could you please

 5     tell us what the situation was like?  We see that the situation was like

 6     that on the 19th of April, 1993, but can you tell us for how long the

 7     hospital existed and for how long it operated under such circumstances

 8     existing in an enclave without any possibility of anybody else accessing

 9     them?

10        A.   It was a very sad story which lasted from approximately this time

11     to the moment when the Washington Peace Accords were signed, and that

12     was, I believe, in 1994, in the month of March.  Throughout all that

13     time, the hospital in Nova Bila was completely blocked and encircled.

14     They could not receive any assistance.  They could not transport their

15     wounded anywhere.  They could only be air-lifted.  That was the only way

16     for the wounded to be transported.

17        Q.   We will -- I would like us to proceed.  We'll go back to the

18     hospital.  I know that hospital is very important, and it was a very

19     important topic of your contacts with international organisations.  We

20     will come back to that and talk about it a bit further.

21             Can we please now look at 2D779.  That's the next document in

22     your binder.  This is another report which was signed by Zrinko Brekalo

23     Dr. Zrinko Brekalo and he's requesting certain drugs and medicines, and

24     then he provides a list of the civilians who were killed in Trusina on

25     the 16th of April.  You know Mr. Brekalo, don't you?

Page 38916

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is that one of the ways how you received information from the

 3     field?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely.

 5        Q.   This is a story about Konjic, i.e., about Kostajnica.  And just

 6     for the transcript, I would like to say this document has two pages.  The

 7     first one is 2D52 -- and the second 52 -- 2D520240, and the second page

 8     is 2D520241.  And the second page does not belong to the document,

 9     actually.  The ERN number of the document which we took from the

10     Prosecutor, and the ERN numbers are in sequence, but the second page does

11     not belong to the documents.  So when we tender this document for

12     admission, we will ask for the admission of only the first page.

13             Witness, I'm going to now show the next document, which is 2D707.

14     Could you please look at the document for us.  This is another report.

15     Have you located it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   This is another report which was signed by Toni Kolak.  As it

18     says here, he was the chief of the Service for the Healthcare of the

19     Wounded, and he sent this report to you; and the report speaks about the

20     negotiations regarding the transport and protection of the wounded and

21     the frail during the war operations in the territories of Konjic, and the

22     date is 9 of May.

23             Just briefly, Mr. Bagaric, could you tell us something about the

24     report, which is very precise?  Could you please explain what kind of

25     negotiations are discussed here?

Page 38917

 1        A.   This is a very important document and a very important moment

 2     during the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims, Bosniaks in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It is very closely tied with the previous report,

 4     which speaks of the 16th April or one day before.  So if we remember,

 5     that coincided with the killing of Bosniak Muslims in Ahmic [as

 6     interpreted] and the Croats in Kostajnica.

 7             As a healthcare service, at the request and upon their

 8     implorations [as interpreted], because they were completely blocked in

 9     Konjic, we tried to talk to the International Red Cross and to organise

10     the transport of all the wounded, i.e., those who needed further

11     assistance.  On several occasions, I believe on two occasions, we went

12     down there to Jablanica in the organisation of the International Red

13     Cross.  However, the Muslim Bosniak authorities did not allow us passage

14     and access to the wounded.  We were not allowed access, and the

15     International Red Cross was not allowed access.  And then I asked

16     Mr. Petkovic, present here in the courtroom, and asked him whether we

17     could organise or talk to Mr. Morales, the respective of the Spanish

18     Battalion of the UNPROFOR - I'm very grateful to him to this very day - I

19     wanted to ask him for a meeting at a higher level in order to be able to

20     organise a transport of our men.  Owing to all who are present here today

21     and Mr. Morales, the meeting was indeed organised.  Mr. Morales organised

22     the meeting with Mr. Halilovic, who was the commander of the BiH Army,

23     and Mr. Petkovic, the commander of the Main Staff of the HVO.  I and my

24     colleagues, doctors, we were involved in the meeting, and the objective

25     was to achieve the objective that I've spoken about.  And I was at the

Page 38918

 1     meeting in Konjic, at the military base there.  Mr. Morales also came to

 2     the meeting.  He was the commander at an even higher UNPROFOR level, and

 3     we achieved a gentleman's agreement that made me really happy at the time

 4     and very proud also.  I was happy because I believed that we would be

 5     able to help those who needed our help the most, and I was also very

 6     proud for our own participation, the participation of the HVO headed by

 7     Mr. Petkovic.

 8             Mr. Petkovic was very professional and he told them, in very

 9     professional terms, Let's see what the problem is and how we can remove

10     the problem.  Then there were accusations on the part of the Muslim side.

11     They tried to accuse us of various obstructions, but they were the ones

12     who were putting obstructions in our way, and everybody was clear on

13     that, the representatives of the international community and everybody

14     else.  It was finally agreed that we would take three different

15     digressions in order to transport our wounded and to enable the Bosnian

16     Army to tour the points that were of some interest to them.

17             So when we headed off to the field, I was personally in the

18     column, i.e., I was Mr. Petkovic's escort, and we went to Sovici.

19        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, can I please draw your attention to something.  I

20     would like to have a very clear transcript.  It says here in the middle

21     of the first page, as you said it yourself, "it was agreed that we should

22     proceed in three directions," and those directions were Konjic,

23     Zaslivlje, Zabrdje --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- Stari Grad, Ostrozac, Celebici, Klis, Kostajnica, Buscak,

Page 38919

 1     Trusina, Butorovic Polje, Obriverca [phoen], and Sovici and Doljani, and

 2     all the prisons there.  The report is very precise, but I would like to

 3     ask you this:  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you managed to visit

 4     and what you didn't manage to visit of all the things that you had

 5     planned to visit.

 6             And just for the transcript, I can notice that not all the places

 7     have been recorded properly, but later on I will dictate the names of the

 8     places that have not been recorded.

 9             Go on, sir.

10        A.   Mr. Halilovic wanted us to go to Sovici because he had accused

11     the HVO for the alleged crimes that had been committed there, and we

12     insisted on going to the place where the crime did happen, and that was

13     Trusina and the part between Sajnica [phoen] and Buscak, and so on and so

14     forth; and the third direction was Zabrdje and Zaslivlje and so on and so

15     forth.  We managed to go to Sovici.  We were in Sovici, and to my great

16     satisfaction and to the satisfaction of everybody in the group, there had

17     been no crimes committed against the civilians, and this was confirmed by

18     the Muslims who were detained.  And when we were there, there was nothing

19     there.  And as for the other two directions, we didn't take any of them

20     because the BiH Army had blocked the convoy, the UNPROFOR convoy headed

21     by Morales and forced him to return to Mostar.

22             In other words, on our part, we returned without our business

23     completed because we did not go to Zabrdje or Zaslivlje or Trusina or

24     anywhere near there, although that was our main objective and that was

25     the reason we had asked for the meeting in the first place.

Page 38920

 1        Q.   You said that you didn't go to Zaslivlje.  Can you repeat, for

 2     the purpose of the transcript, where you didn't go?

 3        A.   We did not go to the other remaining directions, Zabrdje and

 4     Zaslivlje.  That's that section and the other section is Kostajnica and

 5     these villages where the crimes actually took place, the one referred to

 6     in the previous report by my colleague, a doctor.

 7        Q.   Can you please tell the Trial Chamber at the time what was

 8     happening in Turija, Zaslivlje and Zabrdje, where you did go, where you

 9     wanted to go.  Who was in that area?  Did go in that area?  Turija,

10     Zabrdje and Zaslivlje.

11        A.   In that area, there were Croats who all stayed.  Actually, they

12     were in the Konjic enclave, but that was a separate enclave.  They

13     happened to be in a sandwich with Bosnian forces on one side and the Army

14     of Republika Srpska on the other side, and I think that later they

15     managed to get out through the Serbian side somehow.

16        Q.   Can you now please look at document 2D74 --

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

18             Witness, I would like to ask you a question of you.  In the

19     course of this last lengthy period of your answer, you have spoken of

20     "our wounded, our wounded."  Could you explain to the Chamber what you

21     mean by "our wounded"?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We had a report from these

23     villages, Trusina, Sajonica [phoen], Kostajnica, that there were many

24     wounded members of the HVO and civilians there, and because of them we

25     asked this meeting to be organised in the first place.  We didn't manage

Page 38921

 1     to get to them and bring them out.  That's what it's about.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Your answer, Mr. Bagaric, leads me to conclude

 3     that they were persons of Muslim ethnicity that you were concerned with

 4     here, the wounded that were members of the HVO; is that correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this specific case

 6     I used the term "our," and perhaps that confused you and you're, in a

 7     way, not understanding.  In this case, the wounded were exclusively

 8     members of the Croatian Defence Council and Croats who were living there,

 9     civilians, so the wounded were all the people that we could reach and

10     treat.  But in this particular case, the wounded did also happen all to

11     be Croats.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I do not agree that I was confused,

13     actually.  I had supposed that this was the case, but I wanted to have it

14     clear so that we are not doing guess-work.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I have been warned

17     correctly that on page 54, on line 22, the word "wounded" is missing when

18     the witness was talking about that.  He was talking about wounded members

19     of the HVO and civilians.  The word "wounded" is missing, and that is why

20     it doesn't quite make sense.  Anyway, that was the task of the mission

21     the way the witness described it.

22             Can we look at the next document, 2D745, please.

23        Q.   Have you found it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This is a report of the same date about the humanitarian convoy's

Page 38922

 1     trip to Klisa and Vrci?  Is it the same trip?  Mr. Tugomir Gveric, chief

 2     of the Medical headquarters of the HZ-HB is writing this report.  Can you

 3     tell us what the difference is between the two reports?

 4        A.   The only difference is the trip that the two doctors went to.

 5     The two of them, Kolak and Tugomir Gveric went in two different

 6     directions.  I went in the third direction, in the third destination.  We

 7     did manage to complete our assignments, both to the satisfaction of the

 8     Bosnian commanders and us, me as a doctor, but the other two trips we

 9     were not able to complete.  We didn't manage to reach the destination.

10     That is why they wrote two different reports, but essentially the reports

11     cover the same events.

12        Q.   When we're talking about reports from the field, let us look at

13     document 2D1296.  That would be the next document.  This is a document of

14     the 9th of June, signed once again by the chief of the Medical Corps,

15     Mr. Drago Dzambas, and he says in the first sentence of the first

16     paragraph that Travnik fell.  The second paragraph talks about the

17     hospital in Nova Bila which is operating above its capacity and that 213

18     people were wounded over a period of five days.  It talks about a

19     shortage of oxygen, again about the evacuation in Split, and it talks

20     about the drama happening in Travnik.  It also talks about wounded

21     doctors and that two doctors, Valjan and --

22        A.   Valjan?

23        Q.   Yes, excuse me, Valjan and Stipinov.  Their outlook is uncertain.

24     Can you please comment on this document, Mr. Bagaric?

25        A.   This is one of the typical reports that was sent from the

Page 38923

 1     Nova Bila Hospital which I referred to earlier.  This specifically refers

 2     to the events related to the expulsion of the Croatian civilian

 3     population from Travnik and the take-over of the whole town by the

 4     Bosniaks or by the Muslim Army.  The report covers a difficult situation

 5     in a very small area, the overall situation, and especially in terms of

 6     the treatment of the wounded in the Nova Bila Hospital.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at the next document, 2D569.  It's a report

 8     from the 3rd Brigade in Fojnica from the 2nd of July, referring to your

 9     order.  It's being sent to the chief of the Medical Services,

10     Drago Dzambas.  The chief of the medical brigade of that brigade talks --

11     battalion talks about the number of wounded and the number of soldiers

12     killed, as well as the number of civilians who were killed and wounded:

13     99 soldiers were wounded, 46 soldiers were killed.  Can you tell us

14     whether similar or this report reached you?  It says, at the top of the

15     document, that it was being sent to the Defence Department, to the

16     Health Sector or Medical Sector.

17        A.   I apologise, but what is your question?

18        Q.   Well, are these the reports that would also reach you from the

19     field?

20        A.   Yes.  I think this refers to the Fojnica situation, something

21     similar to what previously happened in Travnik, so this is a Central

22     Bosnian mixed population town with a majority Croatian population, where

23     what happened happened, and we could see there was a large number of

24     victims, a lot of suffering, and then Bosniak Muslims overran that whole

25     area and the civilians had to leave.

Page 38924

 1        Q.   Now we have 2D00461.  Have you found the document?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The document is signed by Mr. Ivo Sandrk on the behalf of the HVO

 4     Medical Staff, and also the name of Mr. Siljeg is there.  The date is the

 5     22nd of July.  What it says here is:

 6             "I'm addressing you maybe for the last time ..."

 7             And you can see who the letter is addressed to, the UN British

 8     Battalion, Major Bins, Captain Holden and it says:

 9             "I am addressing you maybe for the last time so that we can

10     jointly try to do everything to save the lives of hundreds of wounded

11     children, soldiers, and civilians from Bugojno.  Already tomorrow, such

12     help may not be needed."

13             Can you tell us about that situation in Bugojno and can you

14     comment on this document, please?

15        A.   For the third time, we are seeing the same kind of thing

16     happening, in this case in Bugojno, because of a high concentration of

17     Bosnia Muslim forces, people who were also expelled from other places in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as army members, people who were armed.  The

19     Croats in Bugojno got into a very difficult situation, and this is a very

20     sad story of Bugojno which actually did -- was completely cleansed of

21     Croats.  Unfortunately, the crimes that took place there were never

22     punished, as far as I know.

23        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, we saw the situation previously in Travnik.  Then we

24     saw the situation in Fojnica, and now we're seeing the situation in

25     Bugojno.  I know what you are trying to say, but I think for the purposes

Page 38925

 1     of the transcript and the Trial Chamber, it would be good for you to say

 2     explicitly who occupied those places and who expelled the Croats from

 3     those towns.

 4        A.   Unfortunately, this was a time of the full escalation of the

 5     conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Croatian

 6     Defence Council, and these towns were all entirely captured by the

 7     armija, the Bosnian Muslim side; and those who were expelled from all

 8     three of these towns were exclusively or in the majority of cases Croats

 9     who, unfortunately, specifically in Bugojno, made up 40 percent of the

10     population; maybe not 40 percent, but the ratio between Croats and

11     Muslims was more or less equal.  And then the Croatian population was

12     completely expelled.  And despite all efforts at this moment, I think

13     right now there is 6.000 or 7.000 -- a population of 6.000 or 7.000

14     Croats there, compared to the previous figure of 30.000 before the war,

15     which I think is still quite a considerable success in getting those

16     people to come back, these Croats who are there now who managed to

17     return.  At one point in time, practically all of the Croats were

18     expelled.

19        Q.   Now, from this previous document, which is an exhibit and seen

20     before in the courtroom, which actually is a request for help in the

21     evacuation of the wounded, can we now please look at the next document?

22     This is 2D465.  Have you found it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This was signed by Mr. Sandrk, and the document is being sent to

25     you.  It also focuses on the need to evacuate the wounded; is that

Page 38926

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  It refers to all the wounded, because there was a hospital

 3     there where both Bosnian Muslims and Croats were being treated up until

 4     the time of the conflict.

 5        Q.   Can you please look at page 2 of this document where this

 6     actually is stated:

 7             "I have just arrived from the Bugojno War Hospital in the

 8     presence of the UNPROFOR and the observers.  An agreement was reached to

 9     evacuate the same.  All wounded members of the HVO and wounded civilians

10     are going to be evacuated to Gornji Vakuf."

11             Already he is talking about the beginning of this evacuation; am

12     I correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you please look at document 2D467 on the same topic.  This

15     document was also signed by the chief of the HVO SIK, Dr. Ivo Sandrk, and

16     the document talks about the evacuation of the wounded from the HVO

17     hospital in Bugojno according to the days.  Mr. Bagaric, can you confirm

18     this?

19        A.   Yes, this is obvious.

20        Q.   Can you please look at document 2D726.  2D726.

21        A.   I have to take a different binder now.

22        Q.   Yes, yes.  Go ahead.

23             Very well.  Have you found it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, this is sent from Busovaca.  The documents are arranged in

Page 38927

 1     chronological order.  This is a report of the 1st of August, 1993 from

 2     the chief of the medical corps of the Nikola Subic Zrinski Brigade,

 3     sending information about persons killed and wounded, both civilians; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   Can you look at the next document.  This is 2D728.  It's a report

 7     of the 4th of August, from the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in Novi Travnik,

 8     from the 4th of August we said, and it mentions the number of killed

 9     soldiers?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   It also says that two members of the brigade were killed by the

12     Serbian aggressor.  The next document is more or less the same.  That is

13     2D729.  Mr. Bagaric, this is also a report of the Vitez Brigade service,

14     the chief of the Medical Corps.  He's sending a report on the number of

15     persons killed and wounded, and the report is dated the 5th of August,

16     1993.  You received reports like this one, didn't you?

17        A.   Yes, reports like this, or similar ones, yes.

18        Q.   The next document would be 2D00730.  It's a little bit different.

19     It's a request for the transport of wounded by a helicopter.  It's signed

20     by Mr. Dzambas.  It's a request for evacuation from the military hospital

21     in Bila.  Mr. Bagaric, we did talk about the military hospital.  Can you

22     tell us briefly about the number of requests for evacuations that were

23     carried out?

24        A.   Well, we can see numerous requests here, but I know that these

25     requests occurred on a daily basis, almost, and they indicate actually

Page 38928

 1     the gravity of the situation that we were in, especially the Croats of

 2     Central Bosnia; in Nova Bila in this instance.

 3        Q.   I'm going to ask you now to look at -- Mr. Bagaric, perhaps it

 4     would seem excessive, but was there a different way of evacuating these

 5     people, other than by helicopter?

 6        A.   Well, it's generally known that the transport links with Central

 7     Bosnia were severed because of the conflict between the armija and the

 8     HVO; so I, as the chief of the Medical Corps, or the commander, rather,

 9     of the Medical Corps of the HVO, was very concerned to receive requests

10     like this every day for assistance, for help, for evacuation, to do this

11     or that, but we exclusively depended on helicopter flights, which had to

12     be approved by UNPROFOR, and this is why we had to send them out to

13     UNPROFOR and to the commanders -- or receive them also from commanders

14     and were sending them on to UNPROFOR.

15        Q.   Well, Mr. Bagaric, let's look at another report now.  This is

16     2D712.  It's a list, actually, of those wounded and killed.  This is a

17     list.  It says "The Defence Department, the Healthcare Sector."  I would

18     kindly ask you to tell us this:  Were these lists made based on the

19     previous lists and reports?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   With a remark that we also have the names of the persons who were

22     wounded and killed here.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, how were

23     these lists compiled?

24        A.   What I find unusual in the document is the fact that I can see

25     the date here, the 1st of August, 1993, and down there is -- there are

Page 38929

 1     different dates; the 2nd, the 4th, the 5th of August.  So I don't know --

 2     I don't understand how this happened.  Does this mean that the top date

 3     is erroneous or not?  I am a bit confused.

 4        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I'm asking an explanation from you, sir.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  That question is asked and answered.

 6     The witness says he doesn't understand.  I don't understand either,

 7     Ms. Nozica, what we are to do with all this, these numbers of wounded.  I

 8     frankly do not see the pertinent or relevance of these documents to our

 9     case.  Perhaps you can clarify.  They're also rather repetitious, as we

10     have had that before.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm asking the witness

12     about what he did in the sector, and the witness told us what the sector

13     did.  The Health Sector did receive reports from the field.  They

14     forwarded those reports, and I'm asking the witness exactly what you have

15     just said.  The witness said that he's confused, and I'm asking the

16     witness whether he can explain the source of confusion.

17        Q.   It says here "the Health Sector."  Maybe the witness can tell us

18     whether this was, indeed, done in the Healthcare Sector.  If he think it

19     wasn't, then I'll skip this document.

20        A.   Just a minute.  Can you please bear with me.

21             Your Honours, I am not doubting the accuracy of the data, which

22     means that on the 1st of August, a certain number of people were wounded,

23     and then some others on the 2nd of August.  I believe that this is

24     correct.  However, I am puzzled by the date up there.  I believe that we

25     probably had collected the data, our service did it, and then our service

Page 38930

 1     compiled a summary report, and I believe that the previous date was

 2     retained by mistake.  It's really confusing, I must say.

 3        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, which service was in charge of compiling the data?

 4     You're saying "the service."  Which service was that?

 5        A.   I said that within our Medical Staff, we had a department or a

 6     service -- I don't know how to call it.  For a while it was "department"

 7     and then it was a service, the Information and Documentation Service it

 8     was called, and that service collected information from the field in

 9     order to be able to inform anybody about the situation or document the

10     situation in the field.  In other words, this served for us to be able to

11     monitor the overall situation with the healthcare in the territory.

12        Q.   Can you please look at the following document, 2D503.  This is a

13     document which was compiled in a similar way.  Again, it was headed by

14     the Healthcare centre, but the date is different.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to put a question with regard to

16     the previous document.  Dr. Bagaric, I don't know if you know, but I

17     assume you do, are all these people reported here Croats on the list?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not.  I did not check.

19     I can do it, if you wish me to, I can even speculate, but I don't think

20     so, no.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Can you tell us how the names were found?  Who

22     set up the list originally?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since we had communication with our

24     doctors in the field, and they were the first source of information

25     because they were in immediate contact with anybody who was wounded or

Page 38931

 1     they learned about anybody who had been killed, they maintained records

 2     which they forwarded to us.  So it went from one doctor to another.  I

 3     assume -- or, rather, I don't assume, I know it for a fact that doctors

 4     also submitted information to their respective commanders in their own

 5     units.  For example, here it would be the brigades or the military

 6     districts, and so on and so forth.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  There is a section entitled -- subsection

 8     "Soldiers killed."  Would that include soldiers of the ABiH?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose -- or, rather, I'm

10     convinced that this is not the case.  The chiefs of the medical services

11     in the HVO units were the ones that followed the HVO units, and this

12     concerns primarily HVO members.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Right, thank you.  That's quite convincing also.

14     And there are two civilians, Nametak and Kresic.  To me, by now, it

15     sounds rather like Croatian than Muslim names, but you know much better

16     than I do, of course.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Which page is that?

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The last page.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Dead civilians, yes.  Kresic,

20     Marina, I assume she's Croat.  And as for Mija Nametak, I'm not quite

21     sure.  I can't be sure.  I don't really know.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Bagaric --

25        A.   I believe that what I'm going to say is very important, if I may.

Page 38932

 1        Q.   Go on, then.

 2        A.   It says here on the 7th of August, 1993, or the 6th of August,

 3     1993, we have here Croats, if this is what we are going to be looking at,

 4     we have Croats and also Muslim Bosniaks, and we also have their

 5     diagnosis.  This points to the fact that only the doctors could compile

 6     the reports of this kind, because who else could have been able to

 7     determine the diagnosis or the diagnostic situation after the wounding?

 8     And I believe that this was important, and I apologise for the

 9     interruption.

10        Q.   To follow up on His Honour Trechsel's question, let's look at the

11     page where it says "Mirko Golemac", and then on the 2nd of August, it

12     says: "Senad Saric," 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, are you following me, 10, 11,

13     12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.  Would all these be Bosniak names?

14        A.   I suppose so, yes.  I think so.

15        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, when it comes to the wounded, were those people

16     treated at the HVO hospitals, regardless of their ethnic background?

17        A.   Absolutely, absolutely, regardless of their ethnic background or

18     their affiliation to a unit.  They all enjoy the same treatment.

19        Q.   Just a brief comment about the following document, 2D503.  Is

20     that the same kind of report?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Bagaric, can we look at 2D761.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This is a report on the negotiations with the Muslim side

25     regarding the evacuation of the wounded in Medjugorje, and the date is

Page 38933

 1     1st September through 6 September?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   It says in the first sentence that:

 4             "At 1000 hours on 1 September 1993, in the Spanish Battalion base

 5     in Medjugorje, negotiations started about the implementation of the

 6     agreement on the evacuation of the seriously sick and wounded persons

 7     from Nova Bila and Mostar ..."

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And at the Sarajevo Airport.  This was signed on the 1st of

10     August, 1993, General Petkovic, Delic, and this was testified to by

11     Mr. Briquemont.  Do you know anything about this meeting, Mr. Bagaric?

12        A.   It was a long time ago, but I am convinced that I personally

13     attended that meeting in Sarajevo, if this was signed in Sarajevo.  I

14     apologise.  Does it say anywhere?

15        Q.   Yes, in Sarajevo.

16        A.   The meeting took place before the date that is indicated here as

17     the 7th of September.  I was personally present at the meeting, because

18     Mr. Petkovic had invited me to attend as the chief of the Medical Service

19     of the HVO, to visit Sarajevo to attend the meeting.  That was at the

20     time when Sarajevo was fully encircled.  And I had an occasion to ask

21     Mr. Delic to organise something, and this is how I remember the meeting.

22     I remember it for the wounded and for what I was asked by Mr. Delic to

23     do; and that is to organise a meeting between the head of the Medical

24     Service of the BH Army and me personally, because I thought if we were to

25     establish good communication, then our wounded, irrespective of their

Page 38934

 1     affiliation, would enjoy a much better chance for healthcare, for

 2     transport, and all the other benefits.  However, I remember that

 3     Mr. Delic was not interested in that kind of meeting.

 4             I pursued those attempts a lot of times.  I talked to the

 5     international community, UNPROFOR, asking them to mediate between us and

 6     the other side in order to arrange such a meeting.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Bagaric.  This is going to be my next

 8     set of questions, but let's look at two more things in this document.

 9             On the second page, in the Croatian version, which is also page 4

10     in the English version - in Croatian, this is page 2, paragraph 3 - the

11     document was signed by the Control and Inspection, Mr. Stevo Sarlik

12     [phoen].  I believe I've forgotten to say that.  It says here:

13             "I went to Mostar to be present with UNPROFOR when MOS wounded

14     were taken on board."

15             I would like to emphasise that previously you can see that the

16     date is the 3rd of September?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that.

18        Q.   And it says what ensued was a MOS mortar attack on the part of

19     town under the control of the HVO.  Eighteen civilians were wounded, five

20     of them children, and five civilians were killed.  Among the wounded

21     civilians, there were eight Muslims.  It is clear that the aim of the

22     attack was for the MOS to show the public that the evacuation could not

23     be carried out for security reasons.

24             Mr. Bagaric, two questions.  First of all, do you remember this

25     event at all?

Page 38935

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Second question:  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, how often did

 3     such attacks happen while you were working in Mostar?  I believe you had

 4     an office in Mostar; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, I did spend a lot of time in Mostar throughout my

 6     engagement, and such attacks were frequent.  This is one which resulted

 7     in the wounding and killing of civilians and children.  I personally

 8     witnessed frequent mortar and all other attacks on MOS.

 9             However, to be honest, it was very hard for me to tell the

10     difference.  I didn't know whether the fire came from the positions of

11     the Army of Republika Srpska or from the Muslim Bosniak positions, but

12     the truth is that the town did come under shell attacks every now and

13     then.  But I believe that it would be very important for the

14     Trial Chamber to know and to bear in mind that this document clearly

15     shows that my colleague, Mr. Sandrk, who was chief of our Control and

16     Inspection Service, he noted the lack of interest on the part of the

17     Muslim Bosniak side and the evacuation of the wounded.  And it really is

18     very hard to understand the whole thing because the patients and the

19     Muslim doctors in the east part of Mostar during the conflict with the

20     Croats and the HVO were indeed in very dire straits, their situation was

21     very difficult.  However, we had a similar if not the same or even a

22     worse situation in Bila, and we had agreed upon an evacuation exercise

23     for all, everybody for everybody.  However, you could sense that the

24     Muslim Bosniak side was hesitating, dragging their feet, and I didn't

25     know why.  I was never clear on the reason why they would do that.

Page 38936

 1        Q.   You are probably talking about the part of the document which

 2     starts on the same page and says:  "On the 5th of September, 1993," this

 3     is page 5, paragraph 2 in the English version.  Is that what you're

 4     talking about?

 5        A.   Yes, precisely.

 6        Q.   I'm going to have to show you another list.  The document number

 7     is 2D508, and it speaks about the same incident.  And on the penultimate

 8     page of this document, you confirmed that you know about a mortar shell

 9     that had fallen and that some people were killed and wounded.  And now

10     look at the date the 3rd of September, where it says:  "The wounded."

11     Why do you remember this event, Mr. Bagaric?  What makes it so striking

12     to you?

13        A.   Because children were killed, children died.

14        Q.   And now let's go to the penultimate page.  You see a list of 17

15     persons, civilians, and could you please look at the diagnosis.  And as a

16     doctor, I don't want you to speculate, can you tell us whether those

17     people were wounded?  Look at the diagnosis and tell us whether it is

18     possible that they were wounded in the way it is described in the

19     previous document, by mortar fire.

20        A.   What page is that?

21        Q.   It is 2D508, penultimate page.  The date is 3rd of September.

22     Did you find it?

23        A.   Penultimate, yes.

24        Q.   3rd of September.  It starts with "Maric, Marijana."  Could you

25     please tell us, look at the diagnosis?

Page 38937

 1        A.   Yes, this is precisely that.  I really can't tell you exactly

 2     because I can't remember the names of the children who were killed, but

 3     it is obvious that all of these were wounds inflicted by explosions and

 4     resulted in explosive trauma.  As you can see here, due to explosion,

 5     these individuals suffered wounds to their heads, chest, stomach,

 6     shoulders, again chest cavity.

 7        Q.   And now, again, could you please briefly comment upon the names

 8     that you see in front of you.  Just take a glance and tell us whether

 9     there are Croats and Muslims here.

10        A.   Correct, yes, both.

11        Q.   And now the last entry, the civilians who were killed on the 3rd

12     of September.

13        A.   Yes, I can see that.

14        Q.   And also can you please confirm that we see here five names of

15     both Croats and Bosniak Muslims?

16        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

17        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, so far you have mentioned having had good

18     communication with international organisations.  I'm going to ask you to

19     explain to the Trial Chamber which international organisations you

20     communicated with in the course of this period from September 1992 up to

21     sometime -- let's say the Washington Accords.  Which were the

22     international organisations that you communicated with, how -- is there

23     anything you would like to add about their behaviour, your contacts with

24     them, or any such thing?

25        A.   Yes.  We were practically constantly in communication with the

Page 38938

 1     UN, the UNHCR, and the International Red Cross, and the Doctors Without

 2     Borders, as much as we could.  It's my impression -- and actually I would

 3     very much like to be allowed to be given the time to say what I mean to

 4     say on this topic and for that to be recorded in the transcript.

 5             My experience from that conflict or from that period of the war

 6     is that the international organisations, either due to objective reasons

 7     or often subjective reasons, did not and were not able to do much about

 8     the conflict.  Simply, in terms of what I talked about, often one would

 9     monitor if the sides in the conflict were in accord, if one or the other

10     side was accepting something or not.  The interventions would be delayed

11     or postponed, and I think that in terms of that, the doctors who were

12     together with me in that area believe that the experiences that we had

13     there, generally we - I am thinking of doctors of Croat and of Bosnian

14     Muslim ethnicity - should provide an input in cases of future conflicts.

15             For example, we proposed for a joint hospital to be formed in

16     Mostar and that our existing HVO war hospital be used both for the Croats

17     and for Bosnian Muslims and members of their army, but I know that two

18     members of the UN and international organisations seemed to be an

19     impossible mission.  But I'm convinced that everything is possible if you

20     wish to carry through and if there is at least one side that is in

21     accord, and evidence of that is that throughout that whole period in

22     Mostar, we worked on the actual front-line, that the hospital in Mostar

23     was on the actual front-line; so, therefore, this is one issue, not to

24     mention other matters that had to do with refugee camps, prisoners,

25     rather in which way this humanitarian activity could be advanced.

Page 38939

 1             Perhaps had Ovcara and Vukovar been prevented, Srebrenica might

 2     not have happened.  Once Srebrenica did happen, then, as an international

 3     institution, we have the case of Rwanda.  So my professor of public

 4     health, my colleague who participated in these events in Mostar,

 5     Professor Slobodan [indiscernible], wrote and published a very important

 6     article in which he proposes 12 elements in order to improve things on

 7     the basis of experiences during the war, the improving of humanitarian

 8     law and other aspects that had to do with this.

 9        Q.   I didn't interrupt you, Mr. Bagaric.

10        A.   Thank you very much.

11        Q.   Now I would like to go back to your contacts with international

12     organisations.  I'm going to put a general question to you, and then

13     we're going to move to documents that show that.  You said you had

14     contacts with different international organisations?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   How, objectively, did they contribute to the resolution of health

17     issues in that area?  What are your experiences about that?

18        A.   Very often, the internation humanitarian organisations managed to

19     help us, and of course any assistance was very welcome, but often what I

20     talked about and what I'm very dissatisfied about would also happen.  For

21     example, we would be asking for medicines.  I remember an officer from

22     the World Health Organisation who said, We don't have medicines.  Well,

23     who is supposed to have them if the World Health Organisation doesn't

24     have them.

25             The International Red Cross, despite all the efforts -- well,

Page 38940

 1     let's say I remember a time when he told us that he could not help us in

 2     the transfer of doctors from one town, where there were plenty of them to

 3     another one where there was a total shortage because that would be

 4     counter to their mission.  That was incomprehensible to me.  Then these

 5     examples that I referred to; for example in the hospital, global hospital

 6     and so on and so forth.

 7        Q.   Well, let's look at a few documents that discuss that and some of

 8     your correspondence.  The first one is 3D217 [as interpreted].

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'm going to ask you, but we do have a number of important

11     topics, so can you just comment on this request.  Tell us to whom it's

12     addressed and what it's about.  2D317.

13        A.   Yes, I can see it.

14        Q.   Well, in the transcript, it says "3D217," but actually it's 317.

15     Give us your comments.

16        A.   This is a document that speaks about us securing support and the

17     treatment of our sick children, children who are from different areas of

18     Herzegovina, who suffer from different illnesses.  And now that we're

19     looking at it, I can also see that these children are from different

20     ethnic groups.  This is one of the projects that was successfully

21     implemented, where others did invest efforts in order to help us.

22        Q.   Yes.  This is something that is evident.  I would like to

23     emphasise that, that you say "our sick children."  And we're talking

24     about the 14th of April, 1993, and there is a list of 13, 14, 15.  And

25     then on the other side, where you signed it, we have the names.  And so

Page 38941

 1     judging by the names, what would you say?  Are we talking about Croats or

 2     Bosniaks here?

 3        A.   What you said are Muslim children, the names you referred to, but

 4     of course there are Croats among them, Muslims.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I'm now going to ask you to comment --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to stop you.  It's 20

 7     to 6.00, so 20 minutes' break, and we will resume at 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in session.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I was told that I still have an hour and 38 minutes

13     for my examination-in-chief, and since we still have at least two or

14     three large topics that we have to cover, I'm just going to ask you for a

15     brief comment on the documents that I'm going to show you, and perhaps

16     the last one we will look at in more detail.

17             Can you please look at the following document.  This is your

18     communication with international organisations.  Could you please look at

19     2D706.  Have you found the document?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   This is the 28th of April.  You are sending the letter to the

22     International Red Cross, and you are referring to the situation in

23     Konjic.  Does that have to do with the situation that you referred to

24     earlier in the time-period that you referred to?

25        A.   Yes, precisely.

Page 38942

 1        Q.   All right.  Can you please look at the next document.  This is

 2     2D710, 2D710, yes.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry for being meticulous, Ms. Nozica.  The

 4     previous document, you indicated that the date was 25th of April, and all

 5     I see is "the 5th of May."  So probably I did something wrong, and I

 6     stand to be corrected.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Document 2D706, 2D706.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I was with the next document, actually.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you please look at document 2D710.  I think that is the

11     document that I asked for, 2D710.

12             Have you found the document?

13        A.   You are skipping one document?  I'm talking about 2D519.

14        Q.   Yes, yes, we will go back to 519, but can you please comment on

15     2D710?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you comment on this document?

18        A.   This refers to the situation that I talked about in Bugojno, yes.

19        Q.   And here you're addressing the UN; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   All right.  Let us go back now to document 2D519.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what the document is about?

24        A.   This is the situation in Konjic, when we tried to enter all of

25     those places together with the UN in Konjic and when we failed.  I'm

Page 38943

 1     actually again addressing the UN and attaching my reports from the field,

 2     and they, themselves, also know that that's how it was.  And I'm just

 3     saying that we did not succeed in completing our task.

 4        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, can we look at 2D521.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This is being sent to the Spanish Battalion.  You are writing to

 7     them on the 31st of July, and you're saying that at 7.00, there were

 8     ambushes in Kucani and Toscenica when the Muslims ambushed and killed

 9     ambulance driver, Ivan Topic and medical technician, Zvonko Tolj.  At

10     that time, they took the driver in an unknown direction as well as

11     medical technicians.  Do you remember the situation?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. Herve Kalubaric [phoen] I know personally.  This is

13     correct information, and unfortunately the event did take place.

14        Q.   The next document is 2D713.  This is your address to the

15     International Red Cross of the 2nd of August?

16        A.   Yes.  It is connected to the previous event, and we are asking

17     them to establish a connection with these people.  And I remember that

18     they did that, they communicated with them.

19        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 2D716.  In the original

20     document, I can see --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am concerned whether

22     these were captured, and I want to know whether they were released.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After a couple of months, they were

24     freed, but it was after a couple of months.  I don't know exactly how

25     long it took.

Page 38944

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you look at document 2D716, please.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   This document is of the 23rd of September and again talks about

 6     the situation in Central Bosnia.  Again, it talks about the transport of

 7     sick and wounded persons from Nova Bila.  I'm just asking you if this is

 8     one of the requests you sent to international organisations for the

 9     transport of wounded from the hospitals that were referred to.

10        A.   Yes, and it confirms that the situation in Central Bosnia was

11     constantly difficult at that time.

12        Q.   Can we now skip a document, and if you can look at 2D460 now.  We

13     can speed things up a little bit.  This is a document of the 16th of

14     January, 1994?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, again the story is repeated, an unresolved situation

16     where we are persistently trying to establish communication and save the

17     wounded up there, and the sick.

18        Q.   Can you please look at document 2D733 now.  This is again the

19     16th of January, 1994.  The UN Observers and the UNPROFOR Command are

20     being addressed.  Can you please look at page 1, and if you can just

21     comment what you suggest here.

22        A.   Isn't this the same paper?  I think that it is.

23        Q.   2D733.

24        A.   Yes, I think this is the -- only the translation of this paper.

25        Q.   Well, what is your suggestion about this document here?

Page 38945

 1        A.   We are suggesting that the routes of evacuation, manner of

 2     transport of the wounded, members of the HVO and civilians, are done in a

 3     way that it's carried out either by UNPROFOR or that they are escorted by

 4     UNPROFOR or taken out by helicopter.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, excuse me, please, but can you please look at the

 6     screen.  I'm talking about document 2D733.  You can see it on your

 7     monitor, 733.  This is your request to the UN observers and the UNPROFOR

 8     Command in Kiseljak, and you say:

 9             "In view of the fact that the situation regarding help for the

10     wounded is getting worse in Bosnia and Herzegovina," and you're talking

11     about saving lives, and you're asking that commanders of Health Services

12     of the HVO and the B and H Army meet in order that they could agree, in

13     the presence of members of the Observer mission?

14        A.   This is one of our frequent requests aimed at bringing together

15     the leaders in the Medical Service, because we believed if this happened

16     the situation in the field would be alleviated and contribute to a

17     cessation of combat.

18        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, just so that all of this is clear, we're talking

19     about bringing together commanders of the HVO and B and H Army health

20     services?  Is that being interpreted correctly on my part, you were

21     talking about bringing them together?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   Well, let us finally look at a document that summarises what

24     we're talking about.  This is document 2D512 [as interpreted].  It's a

25     memo of yours of the 20th of December, 1993, talking about the situation

Page 38946

 1     with the wounded, the sick, the supply of medicines and equipment, and

 2     the relations between the Muslim and Croat side, the HVO and the ABiH.

 3     It's sent to the UNPROFOR, UNHCR, and the International Red Cross.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Ms. Nozica, I think the number is

 5     502 and not 512.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Yes, I

 7     have just been told that the transcript is incorrect.  It's 2D502.  I was

 8     not paying attention to the number.

 9        Q.   Go ahead.

10        A.   This is a very important document.  In a certain way, it provides

11     a lot of details, talking about the problem and issue of our sick and

12     wounded, and in more general terms about the situation on the ground; and

13     that is why this document, I'm asking the other side and the

14     representatives of international institutions to assist us, to help us in

15     establishing contact with the other side, with a view to transporting our

16     wounded and sick and providing them full medical assistance.  And I'm

17     talking about both Croats and Muslims, without any conditions.

18             In one place here, I am saying that should we not be able to

19     agree definitely, then the Bosniak Muslim side should take their patients

20     wherever they want to take them.  If they cannot be treated in the

21     eastern side of Mostar, then they should either bring their patients to

22     the western part of Mostar or take them to Sarajevo.  I apologise.

23     Sarajevo would have been very hard because Sarajevo was under very grave

24     circumstances.  However, very often they had to take people to Turkey and

25     other countries of the European Union that were willing to assist their

Page 38947

 1     sick and wounded.  That's why we are asking them to enable that to

 2     happen.  I'm talking about the wounded, about the sick, about medical

 3     institutions and medical equipment, about medical supplies, and so on and

 4     so forth.

 5             This is a document which was issued at the end of the year 1993.

 6     Before the end of the war, a lot of time elapsed, and if we had been able

 7     to reach an agreement at that time, I'm sure that many, many people, our

 8     patients, Muslims, Croats, would have survived the terrible and

 9     unnecessary conflict.  And I'm very sincere when I say that all those

10     were victims of the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina that were

11     not necessary.

12        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, according to your proposal that was sent to all the

13     relevant addressees of the international community, you are dividing sick

14     people into two categories, and your proposal is that all the sick and

15     wounded could be treated, irrespective of differences among people,

16     irrespective of the fact whether they were ones or the others, and that

17     all available institutions should be used.  And under C, you're saying

18     that with the help of international institutions, "we should improve the

19     situation in the existing institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina," and under

20     C used the health institution in Croatia which was agreed with the

21     minister of health in the Republic of Croatia.  Could you please tell us

22     whether the wounded members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina also

23     went to Croatia after having been evacuated from the territory of East

24     Mostar?

25        A.   Yes, not only from the territory of East Mostar, but also all the

Page 38948

 1     war-struck areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, thousands upon thousands of

 2     patients, wounded soldiers, civilians, Muslims, but there were also

 3     Serbs -- more Muslims than Serbs, but there were Serbs as well.  There

 4     were also thousands of Croats who were treated and taken care of in

 5     Croatian hospitals, without any questions asked, without any money; and

 6     this to my mind was the biggest humanitarian aid that one state extended

 7     to another during a conflict, during the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8     I believe there was no single state that helped Bosnia and Herzegovina to

 9     that extent.  I don't know of any historical case that would be

10     comparable.  And the wounded are just one part of the story, and sick.

11     There was a lot more humanitarian aid which arrived in Bosnia-Herzegovina

12     and reached both Muslims and Croats from Croatia and via Croatia by land

13     or by sea, and it's a fact.

14        Q.   I'm now going to draw your attention to the part in which you're

15     talking about drugs and medicines, but before that, I would like to ask

16     you this:  Were there any reactions to this letter of yours?  Did anybody

17     inform you that steps could be taken?

18        A.   The most frustrating thing for a man who was trying to deal with

19     a problem in the war was the fact that very often there was no reply

20     whatsoever, none.  I assume that the representatives of the international

21     community did send that to the other side and they did not accept this

22     gesture, because if they had done that, they would not have been able to

23     enjoy the reputation of a victim, to put it that way.  I don't have any

24     other explanation.

25             And when I requested from the international community

Page 38949

 1     representatives to tell me what was going on and what could be done, they

 2     would always tell me, We are waiting for their reply.  And we were always

 3     waiting and waiting and waiting, until the end of the war, and it was not

 4     forthcoming, it never arrived; only every now and then there were

 5     meetings organised, and then with the assistance of generals and

 6     commanders, some agreements would be signed about the transport of one

 7     person or the other.  But this was all in the hands of the other side,

 8     which was dragging their feet and procrastinating, and I don't know why

 9     to this very day.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to link up

11     this last answer with a question I meant to ask, because since the

12     beginning of the afternoon I've been carefully looking at all the

13     documents and I have the feeling or even the certainty, reading the

14     report you drafted, among other things, paragraph F in Chapter 1, that

15     somehow you are challenging the international institutions who seem to

16     have taken a stand in favour of the opponent, and the fact that you said

17     that you sent a letter and got no reply.  This is what one can infer from

18     this.  Is this what you experienced in the field, because you're

19     mentioning examples to the effect that the international organisations

20     established institutions in Tuzla, Zenica, et cetera, Muslim areas, and

21     apparently nothing in Croatian zones.  Now, my question is as follows:

22     Were your reports based on subjective impressions or was this actually

23     what was happening in the field?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours,

25     certainly that I am telling you about my impressions.  It is inevitable.

Page 38950

 1     I had regular communication with representatives of the international

 2     community and other institutions.  However, this report, i.e., this

 3     request, was based primarily on the data that we had received from the

 4     field.

 5             Let me remind you, Central Bosnia was encircled, fully encircled,

 6     the hospital in Bila, the hospital in Zepce, the hospital up there in

 7     Orasje, and so on and so forth, and now if we compare our requests that

 8     we sent to the international institutions and their response then, I

 9     would say that all the time we had a feeling that as a matter of fact,

10     their responses did not match our requests.  Their reactions were not

11     sufficient.  Of course, they helped us.  Of course, they assisted us.

12     From time to time, they played the key role, which I have emphasised here

13     in paragraph F.  I'm saying here that -- just a moment.  Bear with me,

14     please.

15             Let me not waste your time.  I'm sure it's there.  I often did

16     this.  I thanked the international institutions for everything that they

17     did, but it always seemed to me that there was much room left to do more

18     and that the support was not forthcoming, not to the extend we would have

19     wanted.

20             There were cases, and I'm aware of such cases, when, for example,

21     a field hospital was built and used by Muslim Bosniaks in Bosnia, and

22     nothing of the kind was ever built in Bila, where the hospital was

23     actually in the church.  When we asked for some wounded to be

24     transported, as a rule this would be delayed ad nauseam.  I know that

25     representatives of the international community were limited by the

Page 38951

 1     willingness of the Bosnian Muslim side.  I know that.  I'm aware of that.

 2     However, I was bothered by the lack of effectiveness and efficiency.  At

 3     least, that's how it looked like from my point of view.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Trial

 5     Chamber and Their Honours, and now I would like us to look at the part

 6     entitled "Medical Supplies" on the second page of this document, just one

 7     part that will be our introduction for our next topic.

 8        Q.   You are saying in the document:

 9             "Throughout the war, we have tried to supply all medical

10     institutions with additional medicines and drugs, irrespective of who the

11     institutions belonged to and who they were treating.  Whenever the Muslim

12     side requested medicines from us, they would receive them on the same

13     day.  Enclosed please find some of the dispatch notes for such drugs."

14             Mr. Bagaric, the next topic that I would like to ask you about

15     are the relationships with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Here, you

16     are stating one thing, and let me ask you this first:  What was your

17     relationship with the healthcare of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     before the conflict?  And then we'll go back to the topic of that

19     relationship during the conflict.

20        A.   With the leave of the Trial Chamber, I would like to comment on

21     Article F in my letter, because I believe that I still owe you the

22     explanation.

23             I'm saying here that the engagement is valued, because any

24     support to the other side is good; however, it seems to us that we lack

25     that support or do not receive it to the same extent.  I accept,

Page 38952

 1     Your Honours, that I may have been subjective in all that.  However, I'm

 2     absolutely convinced that the international institutions could work

 3     towards improving their efficiency and effectiveness, and this is

 4     something that leaves a lot to be desired.

 5             And as for your question, Madam Nozica, our cooperation with the

 6     other side and our colleagues on the other side before the conflict with

 7     the Muslims, between the Croats and Muslims, was fair, if not excellent.

 8     We established our war hospitals together.  We cooperated, we worked

 9     together, we treated people together, and that's how it was until the end

10     of the war.

11             However, my dissatisfaction arises from the part that concerns

12     the areas under encirclement, for example, Croats in Central Bosnia in

13     this case, and at the same time this was happening to the Muslims in the

14     eastern side of Mostar.  It seems that there was no support, that there

15     was no cooperation between the doctors; and my impression is that this

16     was not down to the doctors in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it

17     was down to the commanders, who wouldn't let them do anything.  To put it

18     simply, they just did not allow this sort of open communication and

19     cooperation between the two sides, between the medical personnel of the

20     two sides.

21             At the same time, the international institutions were trapped by

22     their non-acceptance, and they did not know how to respond to that.

23             I'm not saying that anybody was malicious or malevolent in the

24     institutions of the international community, I'm not saying that.

25        Q.   After the conflict with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you

Page 38953

 1     were talking about what was happening before the conflict, and now after

 2     the conflict with the BiH Army did you continue seeking cooperation and

 3     offering solutions that would be mutually beneficial?

 4        A.   Of course, absolutely.  I claim with full responsibility that we

 5     were doing that all the time.  And, I repeat, it was a frustrating

 6     battle, because we never received, or at least not to the extent that we

 7     expected, the answers from the other side.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry that I have to remind you of the time, but now we have

 9     arrived at a topic that is very important, and that's why I'm going to

10     show I was series of documents talking about that.  First of all, could

11     you please look at 2D705.

12        A.   I have it.

13        Q.   You signed this document.  This document has already been

14     admitted.  The date is 21st of December, 1992.  And just briefly, I would

15     kindly ask you to comment on your proposal put forth in this document.

16     What was your idea?

17        A.   This was at a time when we still believed that Croats and Muslim

18     Bosniaks would never come into conflict.  However, we were afraid because

19     there was already some skirmishes in the field.  I was asking

20     Mile Akmadzic, the prime minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to get in touch

21     with my colleague in the BiH Army, and I wanted the two of us to appear

22     together, based on the letter that was to ensue.  I wanted us to appear

23     together and to share -- to demonstrate how Croat and Muslim Bosniak

24     doctors were against any conflict, that they wanted to prevent any

25     possible war.  That's one of the documents that I sent via the

Page 38954

 1     prime minister of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Could you please look at the following document, dealing with the

 3     same topic, and then I will ask you whether there was any response to

 4     that.

 5        A.   I can comment.

 6        Q.   Can you comment on the second document?  First I have to call it,

 7     sir.  This is 3D708.  Could you please comment on that document very

 8     briefly, 3D708.

 9        A.   Here I am addressing actually the first letter.  It's the

10     enclosure of the second, more important document, I would say, and the

11     second document was sent directly to the head of the Medical Service of

12     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to their chief surgeon; and I am

13     asking him to word a text the way he thinks it should be formed, any way

14     he wanted, and I would co-sign it, and then we would return it to

15     Mr. Robert Simon, who was the representative of the International Medical

16     Corps.  I have to apologise to everybody from the international community

17     for my disaffection, because this Mr. Simon was really eager.  He wanted

18     to prevent any conflict, and he was a doctor, and he tried to convince me

19     that if the doctors were to put forth such a position, that that

20     possible -- that conflict could be prevented, and I still believe that

21     this was possible.  If the doctors were united and appeared together, if

22     they didn't want a war and if they educated people in that sense, and

23     especially based on the very grave experiences that we had suffered, then

24     I believe that the conflict could have been prevented.  This is a special

25     part of the public health, as such.

Page 38955

 1        Q.   Can we now look -- before that, I believe that the question is

 2     superfluous, but still I want to ask you.  Did you receive any answers to

 3     your first or second letters?

 4        A.   No.  Unfortunately, no answers whatsoever.

 5        Q.   Can you look at document 2D737.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I intervene to ask you

 7     the following question:  Let's say that while looking at these two last

 8     documents, I'm very surprised, because you are in a hierarchal chain, and

 9     you write to the president of the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10     directly, and you write to your corresponding number who is in the

11     opposite camp.  So is this a habit in your country, where the rules of

12     hierarchy are not respected, that is to say that you may write only with

13     the permission of your chiefs, or does everybody do anything they want?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, if you

15     formed the wrong impression.  Actually, 1992, the 21st of December, 1992,

16     is the year of the conflict, the year of the war, so it's not a regular

17     situation and, as such, sometimes calls for intervention which, in an

18     ordered world, an ordered organisation, might seem irregular.  But thanks

19     to my acquaintance with Mr. Akmadzic, because I was a deputy in the

20     Parliament, I believe that this was simply a gesture of goodwill, an

21     attempt to communicate in a way that would not inflict harm on anyone,

22     but that could produce certain positive results.  On the other hand, I

23     did consult my superiors, and nobody was opposed to me doing this.  This

24     is what it comes down to.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

Page 38956

 1     continues] ... question.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Can you please look at the next document, 2D737, please.  We

 4     simply arranged the documents chronologically to show this cooperation in

 5     terms of the medical work and medical equipment.  This is the Trauma and

 6     Orthopaedic Service of the Dzemal Bijedic Medical Centre, and it's

 7     addressed on the 31st of December, 1992.  Mr. Stojic was not there at the

 8     time.  This was a request for certain instruments, technical aids,

 9     bandages, disinfectant, and other things for the hospital.  And can you

10     please tell us if you agree or not that assistance of this kind was being

11     sent to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the area of Zenica?

12        A.   Yes, this is Mr. Stojic's signature, stating that he approved

13     this.  I'm repeating again that we're talking about 1992, when there was

14     no conflict between the Croats and the Bosnian Muslims.  And it indicates

15     that the Muslims were not in an easy situation, either.  They were

16     suffering from shortages, too, and required help, which I believe did

17     arrive, because I think somebody did deliver this.  I'm not familiar with

18     this document.  I haven't seen it, I didn't see it during the war or

19     anything like that, but I do believe that the request was fulfilled,

20     because it's initialled as being approved.  So this is just part of our

21     regular communication among doctors.

22        Q.   Can you look at the following document, 2D704.  This is a list of

23     essential medicines and material from the Medical Centre in Visoko of the

24     5th of December.  There is no heading to whom the document is addressed.

25     That's why I'm asking you.  These are medicines.  Do you remember?  Do

Page 38957

 1     you remember whether it is stated to whom this request for medicines and

 2     equipment was addressed to and whether it was delivered?

 3        A.   Once again, I apologise, but this is a document of which I saw

 4     many during the war before the conflict between us broke out, so this is

 5     a request addressed to the Medical Service, our medical service, and

 6     perhaps it was sent to the Republic of Croatia.  But they did that

 7     through us, so most often it would be the Split Hospital, which was

 8     actually the closest.  It was on the road from Bosnia to Croatia.  So

 9     therefore -- but I don't know really whether this was implemented in a

10     way or not.  I really don't know.

11        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I don't expect you to know everything about each

12     before case, but on the basis of the documents that we saw, I'm going to

13     ask you if you have information whether actions like this were carried

14     out and medicines were delivered, and medical equipment, for the needs of

15     the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army at this time.

16        A.   Yes, yes, absolutely, yes.

17        Q.   Can you look at document 2D316.  This is a notice.  Let me just

18     put a question.  First, this is a result of a meeting on April 14th,

19     1993, and it's addressed to the Wartime Studio of Mostar.  Can you please

20     tell us what you know about this notice and the reaction to it?

21        A.   Yes, this is April the 14th, 1993, already indicating a time

22     indicating the possible of an open conflict, a war, a conflict between us

23     Croats and Bosniak Muslims, on the radio that you referred to.  In a very

24     unprofessional, biased way, the hospital in Mostar was presented in the

25     sense that Croats were not allowing this or that, and then I -- I was not

Page 38958

 1     the commander of the hospital, but because of these reasons, I organised

 2     this meeting, together with the hospital director and all the leading

 3     doctors, where, in a certain way, we expressed -- or actually rejected

 4     notice like this one and said that we needed to work together and that we

 5     were appealing to everyone that we should work together, and in that way

 6     we were actually contributing to what actually I was talking about the

 7     whole time here and what I was saying the whole time then.

 8             And I apologise, there's a sentence here which is -- well, I

 9     don't know if I would write it now, but at that time it was quite

10     logical.  Actually, it says:

11             "On behalf of the Command and the doctors of the war hospital,

12     support is being given in the war of the Croats and Muslims against the

13     common enemy."

14             Because at that time the Croats and the Muslims thought of the

15     Serbs exclusively as the enemy, as their opponents, and also the wish was

16     expressed that the conflicts, which are unnatural, should stop.  And I

17     know that perhaps it might seem a bit too much from me to the

18     Trial Chamber, but I did believe in the dream that we could really

19     contribute to the prevention of the conflict and the war, at least from

20     the extent to which it occurred.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at document 2D318.  It's an

22     announcement of the 23rd of April, and it indicates the presence of the

23     chief of the Medical Corps of the 4th Corps.  Is this is another one of

24     your attempts for a joint --

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I went to him and asked him to draft or

Page 38959

 1     set up a conversation, a talk, and to publicise everything that we wrote

 2     down here.  I think that this meeting was held at the Command of the

 3     army.  At the time, I think the commander was a person by the name of

 4     Tajtuk [phoen], and we came up with this document where we talk about

 5     something to the effect that if a conflict should occur, we would use our

 6     resources and people together in order to save everybody, regardless of

 7     who was in question, and this is very important.  I don't need to read

 8     this.  I mean, this is a terrible copy.  So what was agreed was that an

 9     UNPROFOR transporter be available for the extraction of wounded civilians

10     and soldiers.  All problems on the side of the army and the HVO should be

11     dispatched for resolution the same day by members of the Medical Corps

12     and the chief of the Medical Corps of the 4th Corps.  This was my

13     colleague, Dzemal, the head of the 4th Corps.

14        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, you initiated this?

15        A.   Yes, yes, I did.

16        Q.   Did you hear me?  Did you initiate this meeting?

17        A.   Yes, yes, I did.  I said that.

18        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 3D -- 2D319.  This document was

19     also signed by you.  This is an exhibit we've already seen of the 6th of

20     May, 1993.  You are appointing a surgical team to work in the Jablanica

21     War Hospital?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Already at this time, Mr. Bagaric, on the 6th of May, because

24     your report was from the 5th of May from the visits where you went with

25     Mr. Petkovic, already in that section did the conflict break out between

Page 38960

 1     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO?

 2        A.   On the 6th of May, 1993, after all that had happened up in

 3     Konjic, at the request of the medical or the surgical team from

 4     Jablanica, I am writing an order to the regional war hospital of the HVO

 5     in Mostar to relieve this team, so the order goes into effect

 6     immediately.  We did affect this shift, this relief.

 7        Q.   Who formed this hospital in Jablanica?

 8        A.   The hospital in Jablanica was formed by doctors of the HVO, but

 9     we did not think about it as particularly ours, quote/unquote.  The

10     director of the medical centre at the time agreed to be the director of

11     that institution.  We treated it as one of our institutions, in terms of

12     coverage, and we provided treatment together of both ethnic groups until

13     the conflict didn't shift from Jablanica and Konjic to the area of

14     Mostar.  And then once that happened, it was not possible to communicate

15     with Jablanica, because on the road, Your Honours, towards Jablanica and

16     Konjic, this conflict in Mostar effected, in fact, a break in the

17     communication.

18        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, when you say you treated both, you are talking about

19     the HVO and the Croats and the Bosniaks; am I correct?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   So the units of the HVO who were there and the units of the

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina Army who were in that area; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I apologise.  I am just saying this is the 6th of May,

24     the 6th of May.  This is after the conflict in Konjic and that part up

25     there.

Page 38961

 1             Just one moment.  This is very important.  At that time, I think

 2     there were no more HVO soldiers in this hospital.  All trust was lost,

 3     but still we did relieve that surgical team.

 4        Q.   My question referred to the time-period when this hospital was

 5     established.

 6        A.   Yes, yes, yes, you are correct.  Yes, you are correct.

 7        Q.   Would you please look at P02221 [as interpreted].  The question

 8     will be short, because this is already an exhibit.

 9             On the 11th of May, 1993, an approval was given by Mr. Stojic for

10     the transport of plasma for the hospital in Mostar.  This is obviously

11     the hospital in East Mostar.  I'm asking you this:  Can you confirm for

12     the Trial Chamber that you were involved and that you were aware of

13     plasma being sent to East Mostar and whether the date was also the 11th

14     of May, 1993?

15        A.   Blood did not go there that often as medicines and drugs, but I

16     know for a fact that there was one such case when blood was indeed sent

17     to the eastern side of Mostar.  I don't know, I can't confirm that this

18     was the case or whether there was another case.  Maybe there were several

19     such cases, but I wouldn't know.  We simply did not have blood, and we

20     had to borrow it from Split.  I remember on two occasions we did it.

21        Q.   And now follows a series of documents, starting with 2D119.  This

22     is a letter of yours dated 3rd June 1993, sent to the Command of the

23     4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and could you please

24     provide a brief comment?

25        A.   On the 3rd of June, it was aired on the radio that the Army of

Page 38962

 1     Bosnia and Herzegovina, i.e., the eastern side of Mostar after the

 2     conflict in the month of May - am I right in saying that it was in the

 3     month of May?  Yes, it was - that they did not have any medicines and

 4     medical supplies, and then I did not sign this personally, it was signed

 5     by a colleague on my behalf, and then we sent the offer to the other

 6     side, saying that we had heard that they were lacking supplies and that

 7     we were awaiting for their breakdown to see if we could help them.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would like to correct a number in

 9     the transcript.  Page number 84, line 15, the number should read

10     "P02291."  There are too many 2s.  P02291 is the correct number.  P02291;

11     two 2s.  Now it's correct.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Following the letter that we have just looked at under

13     number 2D119, can we look at document 2D120?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Your brief comment, please.  Does this document arise from the

16     previous offer that you provided?

17        A.   Yes.  The commander of the 4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, Arif Pasalic, replied to our offer and asked to -- actually,

19     was taking us up on our -- taking us up on our offer and providing us

20     with the list or the breakdown of everything they needed.  I believe that

21     some things are missing in the list, but, yes, it did happen, it did

22     transpire after our letter.  We're talking about a list of all the drugs

23     and medicines.

24        Q.   Can you please look at 2D504?

25        A.   Yes, I can see it.

Page 38963

 1        Q.   The order issued by Mr. Tugomir Gveric is related to the previous

 2     request of the 4th Corps for the delivery of drugs?

 3        A.   Yes, this is precisely that.  After we had received the request

 4     from the 4th Corps, Mr. Gveric says, Drugs to be issued according to the

 5     breakdown enclosed, provided by the BiH Army, that quantities should be

 6     available within seven days.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at 2D321 [Realtime transcript read in error,

 8     "2D201"] that's the next document in the series.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Again, this was signed by Tugomir Gveric on the 8th of June.

11     Could you please tell us whether this is in relation to the request?

12        A.   I believe so.  Not that I believe so; yes, I'm sure that that's

13     the request.

14        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I apologise.  What about the batch of drugs and

15     medical supplies that was sent to the BiH Army; did it relate to the

16     request by Mr. Arif Pasalic?

17        A.   I believe that I said yes, yes.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would just like to correct.  On

19     page 96, line 15, it should read "Document 2D321."  That's the number of

20     the document, 2D321.

21        Q.   This is the document that you have just looked at?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Could you please now look at 3D634?

24        A.   I can see it.

25        Q.   The date is 16 June.  It was signed by Mr. Tugomir Gveric, and it

Page 38964

 1     says the Central Depot, Drugs and Medical Supplies of the HZ-HB, Supply

 2     for the BH Army?

 3        A.   That's correct, but I don't see here and I'm not sure whether

 4     that is the correct date.  I'm not sure whether this is the 15th of May

 5     or the 16th of May.  It was in Mostar, but this definitely refers to one

 6     and the same matter, I'm sure, I'm convinced.

 7        Q.   I believe that this is obvious, that the date is 16th of May.

 8        A.   I apologise.  If this is the 16th of June, how can it say, in

 9     English "16th of May"?

10        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, I asked you whether this was the same matter.  We

11     looked at the request, and now I'm asking you whether this is the same

12     request, because the whole thing is not legible enough.  That's why I'm

13     asking, if Mr. Pasalic, in document 2D120, sent a request on the 5th of

14     June, 1993.  That's why I'm asking you whether the document covers the

15     dispatch of medicines pursuant to that particular request.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you please now look at 2D122.

18        A.   Yes, I can see it.

19        Q.   This is a new request dated 9 June.  Could you please comment

20     briefly upon this request?

21        A.   Well, nothing, this is precisely what I was talking about.  He

22     wants a passage -- safe passage to be provided for a shift of the

23     surgical team, and the execution of a list of drugs, and then he mentions

24     a vehicle, the one that somebody -- and he says "you had seized from me,"

25     and this is all.  This is precisely that.

Page 38965

 1        Q.   Mr. Bagaric, is this a new request?

 2        A.   Yeah, it's a new request, yeah.

 3        Q.   Could you please look at 2D233?

 4        A.   I can see it.

 5        Q.   This is a letter by Mr. Tugomir Gveric, who refers to the

 6     previous document in his answer, and he says:

 7             "As regards the request of the Command of the 4th Corps sent to

 8     the Main Medical Staff of the HVO, we are duty-bound to answer we are

 9     sending the medical equipment and drugs as per your request.  We are

10     waiting UNPROFOR transportation.  As regards your request for an

11     ambulance, we have to draw attention to the fact that during the

12     aggression against the town of Mostar, you deliberately destroyed 19

13     ambulances, wounded 6 drivers and killed 1.  We are not in a position to

14     meet your request."

15             The number of the document is so-and-so.

16             2D323.  I apologise.  My attention has been drawn to the error.

17             Could you please comment?  We're still talking about a team of

18     doctors, specialists?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  This is just a confirmation of what I have said a

20     minute ago.  Due to the conflict, all communication with the war hospital

21     in Jablanica was discontinued, interrupted.  Why was that?  Because there

22     is no dispute that drugs were sent, they were being sent at the time, and

23     so on and so forth.  However, my colleague Gveric says that we don't have

24     any ambulances.  That was a fact.  At least we didn't have enough in

25     order to be able to send them to others.  And when it comes to surgical

Page 38966

 1     teams, we had volunteers among the doctors who were willing to go, and I

 2     know this for a fact, and I claim with full responsibility that nobody

 3     volunteered to go, be it Muslims or Croats, and we really could not,

 4     under such dire circumstances when we could not be guaranteed safety for

 5     these people, we could not send them, we could not force them to leave.

 6     We just could not send them with force to Jablanica.  That's that.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is 7.00.  Maybe

 8     this would be a good time to adjourn.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now it's over 7.00.

10     Ms. Nozica, you will have 50 minutes, roughly, tomorrow.  Witness, you

11     will come tomorrow afternoon, since we will resume at a quarter past 2.00

12     tomorrow.

13             I wish everybody a pleasant evening.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of April,

16                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.