1 Tuesday, 28 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Prlic and Coric not present]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
8 the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Good afternoon, everyone in and around the courtroom. This is
11 case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is Tuesday. I would like to greet the accused, Defence
15 counsel, the witness, Mr. Scott and his associate, and all the people
16 assisting us today.
17 Registrar, I believe you have three IC numbers to give us.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That's right, Your Honour.
19 2D has submitted its objections to the list of documents tendered
20 by the OTP via witness Ivan Bagaric. This list shall be given
21 Exhibit IC994. 4D has also submitted their objections to the list of
22 documents tendered by Witness Ivan Bagaric. This list shall be given
23 Exhibit IC995. And the OTP has submitted its objections to the list of
24 documents tendered by 2D and 3D via Witness Ivan Bagaric. This list
25 shall be given Exhibit IC996. Thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
2 Ms. Alaburic, I'll give you the floor back again. I believe you
3 had a question which you wished to put to the witness again.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
5 morning to everyone else in the courtroom.
6 WITNESS: DRAGAN JURIC [Resumed]
7 [The witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic: [Continued]
9 Q. And a special good morning to you, Mr. Juric. We're going to
10 start with a document today that we were discussing yesterday, and in my
11 binder it is 2D774. Yes, 774. Have you found it, Mr. Juric?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm going to ask you to clarify what KOS is, to start off with.
14 Was KOS
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right, fine. Now, during the 1990s, was the secret service
17 in the Army of Republika Srpska considered to be the KOS as well, or any
18 other Serb army?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, read this penultimate paragraph, and it says:
21 "During negotiations with the commanders of the BH Army in
22 Parsovici, the most extreme views were held by Jusa Hadzajlic, nicknamed
23 Homeini, and we believe he encourages the conflict the most. It is not
24 excluded that he is a KOS
25 Now, tell me, Mr. Juric, the members of the HVO, did they
1 sometimes consider that extremists like this among the Muslim forces
2 were, in fact, members of KOS
3 the flames of conflict with the Croats?
4 A. I don't know this gentleman here, but from unofficial talks, I
5 heard that he lived and worked in Klis and that he cooperated closely
6 with the commander of this brigade, the Neretvica Brigade, in Klis. As
7 to the other details about his work and duties, I really can't say.
8 Q. Very well. Let's move on to the next document. It is 2D775,
9 which is a document sent by Mr. Slavko Puljic on the 8th of April, 1993
10 to the Main Staff and the operations zone, informing them of the work of
11 the commission. Tell me first, please, Mr. Juric, whether you knew that
12 Slavko Puljic was a member of the commission of the BH Army and the HVO
13 which was supposed to calm tensions in the area.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, in this report, mention is made of the attack on the
16 barracks, called Goran Stanic in Seonica, and it goes on to say that the
17 attack stopped. Now, does that correspond to what you knew about this
18 period referred to in the report?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now let's look at his conclusion together, where he says that,
21 taking control of the barracks, the HVO forces would be routed and would
22 influence their ability to defend, and that the Neretvica Brigade
23 constantly asked for reinforcements from Prozor. Does that correspond to
24 what you knew the situation to be on the ground, in the field?
25 A. From what the commander of our brigade informed us about, it was
1 precisely these elements that were discussed.
2 Q. Thank you. Yes, your answer has been recorded now. Let's go on
3 to the next document, which is 2D776. Once again, we have Slavko Puljic
4 writing on the following day, which is the 9th of April, 1993, and he
5 says that the day was calm with further provocations. And in the middle
6 of the text, he says that passersby going to Boksevica were still being
7 harassed, and he quotes as an example the disarming of "one of our
8 communications officers who was returning from Boksevica with a group of
9 soldiers." Now, tell me whether this kind of provocation and incidents
10 like this corresponds to what you knew about the situation at the
11 beginning of April 1993 in the area.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now let's look at the next document, which is P1874, and that is
14 a collection of reports from the HVO Main Staff for the 13th of April.
15 It's a collective report for the 13th of April. And if we look at
16 page 2, under point 3, we have a heading there which says "Reports from
17 Konjic." There are three of them, and we're going to comment on each of
18 them briefly.
19 In the first report, it says, "for the 13th of April." Now, tell
20 me, please, the 13th of April, that's when the all-out attack by the
21 BH Army started against HVO forces in the Konjic area; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It says here that on that day, the 13th of April, in the
24 early-morning hours, the Croatian village of Buscak
25 that attempts were made to cross the lake from Ostrozac and to take
1 control of Falanovo Brdo and that Buturovic Polje was shelled with the 15
3 Now, tell us, please, Mr. Juric, this description of events, does
4 it correspond to what you know happened in the area at the time?
5 A. At this point in time on this particular day, I didn't know of
6 operations of this kind, but I learnt about them later on, because
7 between the 13th and 14th, that was the date when there was a clash in my
9 Q. I see, thank you. Now, as to report 2, the village of Buscak
10 mentioned once again, and it says that the village is about to fall.
11 Tell us, did it indeed fall on that day and the following day?
12 A. As far as I know, it did fall, but whether it was that day or the
13 next day, I'm not quite sure.
14 Q. All right, fine. Now, it says that a strong reinforcement
15 arrived from Jablanica, and that is reinforcement in the BH Army, and
16 that they were moving towards Mrakovo and Zuglici, with the object of
17 taking control of Boksevica. Tell us, Mr. Juric, to the best of your
18 knowledge, regardless of the fact that this relates to another area in
19 Konjic municipality, did the BH Army really attempt to take control of
21 A. I've already said that I wasn't in the area myself, but Boksevica
22 was a dominant elevation from which you could control the whole area, so
23 quite certainly in that operation it was part of the plan, and they
24 probably wanted to take control of it.
25 Q. Now, Boksevica is the name of a large hill in the area; is that
2 A. Yes, it's the highest elevation, the highest feature in the Klis
3 area, from which you can control Jablanica and Prozor, et cetera.
4 Q. Now take a look at the last sentence in report number 3, which
6 "This is an all-out attack on the entire zone of Konjic and
8 Would you agree with that? Is that what happened in the area at
9 that time?
10 A. Yes, and I've already said that.
11 Q. All right, fine. Now let's take a look at the next document,
12 which is P1879. And once again that is a collective set of reports from
13 the HVO for the 14th of April. And if we look at number 4, which is on
14 page 2 of your document, Mr. Juric, once again we have reports from
15 Konjic, and it says the fighting started in Konjic as well:
16 "Our villages of Obri and Vrci have been attacked."
17 Tell us, please, whether those villages are closer to your area
18 of responsibility.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And were those villages indeed attacked on that day?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now let's take a look at the following page, where it says that
23 combat operations are continuing and that in Doljani, "one of our
24 soldiers were killed," and that another soldier is still alive. Now, did
25 you know about the fact that fighting had begun in Doljani at that time?
1 If not, it's not important.
2 A. No, my knowledge about the events in the area of responsibility
3 of the 3rd Battalion, which was in Jablanica, and everything that
4 happened in the area, I learnt about that in 1994, in April, when I left
5 the encirclement.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Alaburic, your last questions give the
8 impression that there was an attack and then the attackers killed a
9 soldier. If you read the whole passage, it continues saying:
10 "He wounded himself while under the influence of alcohol, and he
11 died later."
12 So it's a bit difficult to connect this to any kind of military
13 attack, isn't it?
14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but there's another
15 wounded soldier that is mentioned, and my question was about the fighting
16 in the Doljani area, because as events unfolded, we will see that there
17 was fighting towards Doljani, and that particular village will be
18 specifically mentioned, so we'll see that there really was combat going
19 on there. But, yes, I agree with what you've said. I take that on
20 board, yes.
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, on Doljani, the
23 witness said that he only heard about that in 1994. I don't know whether
24 it's useful for you to continue asking questions about this, because what
25 he knows about Doljani relates to 1994.
1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he learnt about what
2 happened at the relevant time in 1994, so the witness's answer can be
3 relevant for these proceedings. And my second comment is that I did not
4 ask the question after the witness's answer because Judge Trechsel
5 rightly intervened.
6 Q. So let's clear this up, Mr. Juric. Can you tell us what it was
7 that you learnt in 1994, about Doljani, about April 1993?
8 A. When I left the encirclement at the end of March 1994, I happened
9 to meet some of my co-fighters, and we talked about what had happened in
10 the Jablanica area during that time. And from this person or this group
11 that I met, I learnt that they had been attacked on the 14th as well,
12 just as we had been in Konjic and the other ones in Klisa, and that there
13 was heavy fighting, and he told me that a large portion of civilians, and
14 several fighters with them, managed to escape from the siege, but that
15 quite a number of people had been killed, but those who didn't succeed in
16 pulling out were transferred to the museum in Jablanica. So that's my
17 information about that event.
18 Q. Thank you. Let's move on now. And in the area which relates to
19 Prozor, the report from Prozor, in paragraph 4 we see the following. It
21 "Today the commander of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade asked for
22 reinforcements from the Rama Brigade, from a launcher on the villages
23 mentioned, and he stated that they were in a dreadful situation, and "you
24 should start immediately before it's too late." He says:
25 "The Rama Brigade fired 107-millimetre launchers, one charge on
2 And then it goes on to say:
3 "We have forbidden our artillery fire before an order to fire is
4 received and before the commanders are appointed who will be in charge of
5 the areas of responsibility and before observation posts and wire links
6 are established, so as to be able to follow the shots -- observe the
7 shots and corrective reports properly given. There were requests today
8 for open artillery fire, too, which we did not permit for the reasons
9 mentioned above."
10 Now, my question to you, Mr. Juric, is as follows: Did you know
11 that the commander of your brigade, that is to say, the Herceg Stjepan
12 Brigade, asked for reinforcement and assistance from the neighbouring
13 Prozor brigade of Rama and particularly with respect to artillery
15 A. I have no knowledge of that.
16 Q. All right, fine. Now let's look at the report from Konjic once
17 again, and that is on page 4 of the document, sir, Mr. Juric. I don't
18 know where this is in the English text, but it could be the penultimate
19 page. Anyway, the report from Konjic for the 15th of April, 1993, and it
20 says the following:
21 "During the night, large movements of Muslim forces were noticed.
22 There are movements of a sabotage group from the village of Mrakovo and
23 Rodici, Jablanica municipality, in the direction of the Didik [phoen], a
24 very important hill of Boksevica."
25 Now, tell me, Mr. Juric, this hill of Boksevica, that was the
1 strategic feature mentioned earlier on; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, on page 5 it says that large movements were noted from the
4 village of Celina towards the village of Grevici, which is located in the
5 Prozor municipality to the north of Boksevica, and everything is geared
6 towards taking Boksevica, and if that happens "then we will be in a
7 situation from which we cannot emerge."
8 Now, tell me, your knowledge of the situation there and the
9 terrain, tell us whether the BH Army managed to take control of
10 Boksevica, or had it been able to take control of Boksevica, would the
11 HVO in that area --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. Alaburic.
13 Please go more slowly.
14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
15 apologise to everybody. I will slow down.
16 Q. According to what you know about the situation on the ground and
17 according to what you know about the ground, would you say that if
18 Boksevica had been taken by the BH Army, the HVO in the territory of the
19 three municipalities, Prozor, Jablanica and Konjic, would indeed have
20 been put in a hopeless situation, as it says in the report?
21 A. Boksevica is indeed strategically the most important feature,
22 especially in the area of responsibility in Klis. Whoever is in charge
23 of Boksevica is in charge of the road towards Jablanica, Prozor, and it
24 also controls the entire territory of Klis, all the way up to Obri and
25 Vrci and where they border on the municipality or the city of Konjic. In
1 my opinion, at that point it was the most decisive feature and whoever
2 held this feature held the control.
3 Q. Can we look at 2D246 now. It's an order issued by
4 Commander Enes Kovacevic. In item 3, he says where one battalion is
5 supposed to go and be prepared for offensive on the positions of the HVO.
6 What I'm interested in is the following, I quote:
7 "Upon the complete mobilisation, the 2nd Company is to take
8 positions in Boksevica and be prepared for offensive operations."
9 This document is dated 14 April 1993. Would such an order on
10 taking Boksevica correspond to what was going on on the ground and what
11 we have just discussed, Mr. Juric?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. Under item 5, can we now look at where it says:
14 "Upon the complete mobilisation, the 4th Battalion, with its 1st,
15 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Platoon, should take positions in the direction of
16 Risovac, and the 5th Platoon has to go in the direction of Doljani and be
17 prepared to carry out decisive defence until the moment the assistance
18 arrives. The positions on Obri should be reinforced by anti-armour
19 equipment and one platoon control the traffic there, and as soon as the
20 combat starts, you should not allow passage in the direction of the
21 villages of Sovici and Doljani."
22 The date on the document is 14 April 1993. Would you say that
23 this order corresponds to what you know about the movement on certain
24 units of the BiH Army and the objectives and targets of their actions?
25 A. I already said briefly what I know about what was happening in
1 the area, so I wouldn't be able to provide you any more details about
2 this. I've never seen this before. I've never met this before.
3 Q. Let's look at the following document, which is 4D453, 453. It
4 has already been admitted into evidence. That's why we will not dwell
5 upon it for any longer time here.
6 The commander of your brigade is Zdravko Sagolj. On the 15th of
7 April, 1993, sent a request for assistance to the Main Staff, to the
8 operations zone of Zeljko Siljeg, to the operation zone of South-east
9 Herzegovina, to the HVO of Central Bosnia, to the Rama Brigade in Prozor.
10 He also says that Konjic has come under attack by the forces that had
11 arrived from Bradina and Igman. According to what you know, for the
12 purpose of that attack, did other forces of the Army of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina arrive in the territory of Konjic at the time?
14 A. Already yesterday, I said that we were attacked by the forces
15 that came from elsewhere. Zuka's units, Black Swans, Swallows, and some
16 special MUP units from Adzic and so on and so forth, it was those units
17 that carried out the attack, rather than the units that were in town.
18 Q. In the last sentence, it says:
19 "Start moving while we are still alive."
20 One could conclude that the situation was indeed alarming, and if
21 the HVO did not receive a substantive assistance in a short period of
22 time, it would lose all the relevant positions in the territory of Konjic
23 municipality. Would you draw the same conclusion, based on the last
25 A. Of course.
1 Q. Very well. And now we are going to skip a few documents,
2 Mr. Juric, because we don't have enough time. We're going to skip two
3 documents, and we're going to dwell upon the next one, which is 3D557.
4 This is a handwritten order issued by Arif Pasalic on 16th of April,
5 1993. It says here -- or, rather, Arif Pasalic says that the forces of
6 the HVO in the Neretvica sector are in a dire position because they don't
7 have enough manpower. Would that be a fair assessment?
8 A. Could you please repeat? I am finding it difficult to read the
10 Q. He says that the HVO is in dire straits because they don't have
11 enough manpower. My question is this -- is whether this was indeed
13 A. Yes, that's true.
14 Q. The next sentence, Arif Pasalic says that the HVO forces
15 requested from their artillery in Pisovac [phoen] to pound the positions
16 of the BiH Army north of Neretvica. We have just mentioned those
17 requests for assistance in artillery. Can we then conclude that this
18 statement on the part of Arif Pasalic is also correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In item 3 of this document, it says:
21 "HVO units are expecting assistance in manpower from the areas in
22 the north, and the HVO units in Kiseljak have been ordered to come to
23 their assistance across Bradina."
24 Would you say that this expectation of assistance in manpower in
25 Prozor is a correct statement on the part of Arif Pasalic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Let's now look at what it says in the order itself. Arif Pasalic
3 says or orders all the forces not to allow the arrival of new forces from
4 Prozor towards -- across the villages of Kacuni, Grevici and Bradina.
5 Did you know that the BH Army prevented the arrival of assistance in
6 manpower in the territory of Konjic?
7 A. Of course I'm aware of that. In all those places, all of those
8 places were encircled by the BiH Army.
9 Q. Let's skip two more documents.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the interpreters
11 are beseeching you to go more slowly, beseeching you. The problem stems
12 from the fact that when you're reading a document which has already been
13 translated into English, the interpreters have no problem translating
14 from your language into French -- into English, but since the French
15 interpreters do not have the text, they are handicapped by this.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to take the opportunity to ask for
17 a clarification.
18 Mr. Juric, you were presented with this letter, where Pasalic
19 thinks that the HVO is expecting support from Prozor, and previously we
20 have seen that Prozor was asked to bring in reinforcement, and you were
21 asked whether the statement of Pasalic that the HVO was expecting
22 assistance in manpower was a correct statement. Your answer was: "No."
23 Could you explain what this "no" means? What was wrong? In which way
24 was Arif Pasalic wrong?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In military terms, commander
1 Arif Pasalic looked at the situation on the ground and he thought they
2 were controlling the area, so it was impossible for HVO units to
3 penetrate through those areas and come to the assistance of those who
4 were encircled. I know only too well that Zuka's units were on Bradina.
5 They held the plateau there, and they launched attacks on the villages of
6 Obri and Ivice [as interpreted], so from the direction of Bradina,
7 nothing could penetrate towards Klis. And the area between Klis and
8 Prozor was also covered by the BH Army, so there was no way for the HVO
9 to help the units that were encircled.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I understand that, Mr. Juric, but one can still
11 expect something. I mean, one asks for assistance. It may not be
12 possible to bring the assistance, but one may still have some hope. So
13 it's not a real contrast to say they're expecting help, if it is in fact
14 not possible to bring the help. That's what I wanted to clarify.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Juric, just an additional question. If I understood you
18 correctly, in Konjic you expected assistance from Prozor, but you
19 expected artillery support, not manpower, because people could physically
20 not cross the territory and reach you because that territory was under
21 the control of BiH Army. Did I understand you correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well. We'll skip the next two documents and we'll move on
24 to 4D599. You are familiar with the document because it was prepared by
25 Bruno Stojic's Defence as their own document, and that's why I believe
1 that we will go through it really quickly.
2 This is a combat report by Esad Ramic to the commander of the
3 4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and let's just look at the
4 most important features. The report is for 17 of April, and it says that
5 feature Stari Grad is encircled. Tell me, please --
6 A. I apologise. What's the document number?
7 Q. 599, 4D599. What is the document that you have in front of you?
8 Maybe I can assist you.
9 A. 4D559.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be a mistake,
11 Ms. Alaburic. 4D599 that we have is a report of the 19th of November.
12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My assistant tells
13 me that the document, I don't know why, has not been included, but I
14 would like to address the honourable Trial Chamber to look at the
15 document in the binder that has been prepared by my learned friend
16 Nozica. At the moment, unfortunately, I don't have the number of the
17 document, so I would kindly ask my learned friend to advise me in that
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] 2D1305. 2D1305 is the number, and
21 in the future that's the number that I will be mentioning, and that's how
22 we are going to ask for its admission. You have it in the electronic
23 court. This is a combat report by an army [as interpreted] from the
24 BH Army. It says that the HVO is encircled in Stari Grad.
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Juric, would that correspond to what you knew about
1 what was going on on the day?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The next feature that is mentioned is Zlatar. It says that that
4 feature is also fully encircled, that it has been encircled by
5 60 soldiers from the Black Swans unit, 40 members of the special units of
6 the Hadzici MUP, and 80 soldiers of the 7th Brigade from Konjic. It is
7 also said that so far around 20 HVO soldiers have been captured.
8 Mr. Juric, would this description of the event correspond to what you
9 know was going on?
10 A. Yes, everything's correct.
11 Q. Let's look at the HVO positions in Polje Bijela. It says that
12 the BH Army forces have disarmed 15 soldiers. Is that true?
13 A. Yes, this is where there were defence lines facing the Army of
14 Republika Srpska, and this is where the positions were manned by the HVO
15 and by the BiH Army, and that's how the HVO soldiers were disarmed.
16 Q. Go to the next page, please. You will be able to see it on the
17 screen, sir. The next page refers to the village of Radesine. It says
18 that the village is encircled by the forces of the Army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct, was that the case, Mr. Juric?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And now let's look at the end of the paragraph, and then I'll ask
22 for your comment. It says, and I quote:
23 "We will attempt to bring the job to an end in Konjic as soon as
24 possible, and then, together with all the brigades, we're going to launch
25 a counter-attack in two different directions. The first one will be
1 Konjic-Jablanica-Mostar, and the second will be Konjic-Prozor-Rama."
2 Mr. Juric, could you please comment on this part of the report?
3 What is this part of the report actually about?
4 A. I've already spoken about this in my testimony. What this
5 gentleman is reporting about to his superior clearly points to the fact
6 that the top echelons of the BiH Army had planned an action to clean
7 Konjic as soon as possible and that BiH Army units could proceed further
8 down towards Mostar and Jablanica. They were supposed to clean the HVO
9 in Konjic because they were the only HVO units that stood in their way
10 towards Jablanica and Mostar.
11 Q. Mr. Juric, I can conclude from what you have just said that
12 Konjic was a very important strategic position for the beginning of the
13 offensive on the part of the BiH Army. Did I understand you properly?
14 A. Yes, you did.
15 Q. Do you know that the area of Konjic, in the former Yugoslavia,
16 pursuant to the defence plans of the JNA, held a special position and had
17 a particular significance in the defence of the former state?
18 A. According to the books from which I studied, a lot of actions --
19 a lot of offensives did go through Konjic and started in Konjic. For
20 example, the battle on the River Neretva was one of them.
21 Q. And when it comes to the area of Konjic, did the government of
22 the former Yugoslavia have special shelters there where the government of
23 Belgrade should have withdrawn in the case of war? Were there special
24 depots built there, depots of ammunition and weapons, was there a
25 significant war industry located there?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The area of Konjic and Igman as well, did it have some
3 significance if one wanted to prepare an action to liberate Sarajevo?
4 A. Could you please be more specific? I don't know what you're
5 asking me.
6 Q. Sarajevo was encircled by the Serb forces. If the BiH Army had
7 wanted to organise and implement an action to lift the blockade of
8 Sarajevo, would that area of Konjic and Igman have been significant for
9 the implementation of such a plan?
10 A. Yes, there were talks about that, the military area or the
11 military features, which were prepared in case of an aggression against
12 the former Yugoslavia, that command would have been in that area. In the
13 same way, the BiH Army planned to use the area from which to organise
14 actions, operations, and implement their plans, by the same token.
15 Q. Thank you very much for your explanation. Now let's look at the
16 following document, which is 4D445. This is another combat report by the
17 BiH Army for 18 April. Feature Zlatar is mentioned here, and it says
18 that the BiH Army had taken that feature. Does that correspond to what
19 you know; Zlatar had fallen in the arms of the BiH Army? Was that the
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Events in the town and in the neighbouring villages are
23 described. What I am interested in is the penultimate paragraph, where
24 it says:
25 "It remains to liberate the strongholds on the left bank of the
1 Neretva river, Turije, Zabrdje, Pomol, and Ljubinje." Turije, Zabrdje,
2 Pomol, and Ljubinje.
3 Tell me, please, this is the area where you were; is that
4 correct, Mr. Juric?
5 A. Yes. However, Pomol is not on the left bank but, rather, on the
6 right bank. The gentleman who issued that report did not know exactly
7 where Pomol was.
8 Q. It says:
9 "The operation will take place tomorrow."
10 And now I'm interested in this next sentence, and I quote:
11 "The objective is to free as soon as possible and help
13 And then it goes on to say: "And further."
14 Now, could you tell us what it means, "help Jablanica further"?
15 Does it mean to take control of all the territory in Konjic, to move
16 towards Konjic, and then Mostar, et cetera; is that what it means?
17 A. Yes, where the units are being included into the two axes or
19 Q. Thank you. And in the last sentence, it says:
20 "According to your dispatch for negotiations with the Chetniks of
21 the 23rd of April, 1993, at Butmir, Mr. Handzo, Mustafa, has been
22 assigned, who is a graduated political science expert."
23 Now, did you know that the BH Army, at the same time with attacks
24 on the HVO, was negotiating with the Chetniks or, rather, the Army of
25 Republika Srpska?
1 A. There was talk of that, but I can't say either way. But rumours
2 were going around that there was some kind of negotiations or talks going
3 on, but I can't really say anything about that because I don't know about
5 Q. Thank you. Now let's look at the next document, which is 4D1565.
6 And this is once again a report from the BH Army from the 18th [Realtime
7 transcript read in error "14th"] of April, 1993, and I'm interested in
8 the last portion of that report, where it says:
9 "Last night at 1800 hours, we sent a unit composed of 70 men to
10 carry out an attack in coordination with the Rebici village unit, from a
11 direction on Radesine, in order to assist the Ljubinje Battalion in
12 Celebici and to clear up the Konjic-Ostrozac road. We sent a part of our
13 forces to Boksevica and a part towards the village of Doljani."
14 Now, tell us, please, Boksevica and the village of Doljani, they
15 are the geographical locations that we mentioned earlier on; isn't that
16 right, Mr. Juric?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, tell us, this description of events, does it correspond to
19 what you know about the situation on the ground?
20 A. Yes. The village of Radesine was under a total siege and
21 encirclement, and from this report we can see that it was held by the
22 units in the encirclement.
23 Q. All right, fine. I'd just like to correct a figure in the
24 transcript. On page 21, line 2, the date of this document was
25 erroneously recorded. So it's not the 14th of April, 1993, but the
1 18th of April.
2 Now, I'm probably running out of time, but I'd like to show
3 Their Honours the ethnic structure of Konjic. I'd like to deal with
4 that, so I'm going to skip over all the other documents that I prepared
5 and ask to have pulled up on e-court document 3D1070, 1070, page 5 of
6 that document, which relates to Konjic, and which I don't have in my set
7 of documents.
8 So from this document, we can see -- well, the text is in
9 Croatian, so we'll help the Trial Chamber out there. It says that the
10 total number of inhabitants in 1991 was almost 44.000; that the number of
11 inhabitants in the municipal centre, that is to say, in the town of
12 Konjic itself, was 13.729. And then we have the total number of members
13 of various ethnic groups, and then we have "Others" or miscellaneous.
14 And if we scroll down, we'll be able to see precisely what you told us
15 and described to us, Mr. Juric; that is to say, that most of those
16 villages were either Muslim or Croatian, and there were some Serb
17 villages as well.
18 Now, I would just like to ask you for your comments. Looking at
19 this map, one could say that the Croatian villages were concentrated in
20 two particular areas; to the left of Konjic in Zabrdje, Zaslivlje, and
21 Turije, Zabrdje, Zaslivlje and Turije, and we mentioned those earlier on;
22 and then the second large concentration of Croatian villages is in the
23 upper left corner, which is the Klisa area; right, Mr. Juric?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Fine. Now, if we have a little more time, let's look at the
1 geographical maps that I have prepared for your testimony here.
2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Do we have time to look at all
3 three maps, Your Honour? I'd like to be able to show the witness all
4 three maps. If not, then I'll just show him the last map. But may I
5 have your guidance on that.
6 Q. Let's move on so we don't waste time with the last map. The last
7 document in my binder is 4D1219. It's that map that I'd like you to look
8 at now, 1219, which shows the situation in the Mostar, Jablanica and
9 Konjic area in mid-September 1993, the last document in my set. And from
10 this document, we can see that the entire area in Konjic municipality was
11 under the control of the BH Army, with the exception of the small blue
12 enclave around the village of Zaslivlje, Zabrdje and Turije. Tell us,
13 please, Mr. Juric, this description of the situation, does it correspond
14 to what you know about the events on the ground?
15 A. Yes, that is precisely that area, the area that we defended and
16 defended successfully.
17 Q. Now take a look at the document just before that, 4D1216.
18 If I've used up my time --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica [as interpreted],
20 please hurry, because your time is almost up.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, let's just see how the
22 situation developed. So we'll move backwards. 4D1216 is the map I'd
23 like us to look at. It's the same area, shows the same area, and it's
24 the situation to the end of June 1993.
25 Q. And if we just look at the Konjic area, we'll be able to see that
1 this entire area was under BH Army control, but that except for the
2 enclave that we mentioned a moment ago in those -- the three villages,
3 there was another enclave under the control of the HVO in the area of
4 Klisa. So does that correspond to what you know of the situation?
5 A. Yes, that is precisely that enclave. It is Obri and Vrci, which
6 fell last. The soldiers surrendered, and they were captured and taken to
7 the camp in the sports hall, and that was at the beginning -- and at the
8 beginning of July, by the 5th of July, they had taken control of the line
9 and this area.
10 Q. All right. And now the last document that we're going to take a
11 look at, the previous one, 4D626, and this is a map of the Konjic area
12 and the situation on the 24th of April, 1993. And underlined we have the
13 names of the Croatian villages which were taken control of by the
14 BH Army. The arrow indicates places which were currently under attack on
15 that day by the BH Army, and the circle indicates the Croatian enclave or
16 pocket near Konjic, around the three villages that we mentioned
18 From this map, it would follow, Mr. Juric, and I apologise if I'm
19 not going to read the names of the villages correctly, that up until that
20 day, that is to say, the 24th of April, numerous Croatian villages fell;
21 for example, Trusina, Puscak, Orliste, Budisina Ravan, and not to
22 enumerate all the other villages that are underlined in blue. Take a
23 look at the map, please, Mr. Juric. I'm sure you'll understand it and
24 find your way around, and tell us whether the map corresponds to your
25 knowledge of the situation and events on the ground in April 1993.
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Juric, thank you for your
4 Your Honours, thank you. That completes my cross-examination.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
6 Witness, I have only one follow-up question for you. I could
7 have put the question to you earlier, but I wanted to wait for
8 Ms. Alaburic to finish.
9 You've told us that the ABiH took Konjic to go towards Jablanica
10 because strategically this was an important thing, it was important that
11 the ABiH take Konjic and then only go to Jablanica, with the idea of
12 going on Mostar. It's a military theory, of course, which is perfectly
13 plausible. But when we look at the map - unfortunately, we don't have
14 the map right here - but there is a route, Jablanica-Bugojno, if you go
15 towards the north, and so the ABiH could have gone through Bugojno and
16 Mostar and to leave Konjic aside, to bypass Konjic. Because you were in
17 a pocket, you were encircled by the ABiH, and in Konjic there were also
18 elements of the 7th Brigade of Konjic, from my point of view it was maybe
19 not necessary to take Konjic, but from the knowledge that you had of the
20 terrain, please tell us if the ABiH could have taken the
21 Bugojno-Jablanica-Mostar road without attacking you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as the area
23 that you mentioned is concerned, Jablanica, Bugojno, and all the other
24 names, Vakuf, et cetera, I really don't know about that area, nor could I
25 talk about that and those axes, because I don't have the information.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you
2 for your answer. We'll get back to that with other witnesses.
3 Madam Prosecutor, you have the floor, and you have two hours for
4 your cross-examination.
5 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Good morning to the Trial Chamber, to everyone in and around the
8 If possible, the Prosecution would like a short break. We've had
9 some computer problems, our case manager has had some computer problems,
10 and we would to also like distribute the Prosecution exhibits. So if the
11 Trial Chamber doesn't mind, we would appreciate a short break before
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, not a problem at
15 Let's take a 20-minute break.
16 --- Recess taken at 9.58 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are back. We
19 have our binders, and you have the floor, Madam Prosecutor.
20 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Moe:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Juric. My name is Hedvig Moe, and I am an
23 attorney with the Prosecution. And I will ask you some questions, and
24 some of them will be related to the documents that you now have in the
25 binder in front of you. And I will direct you, in the same fashion as
1 the Defence counsels, to the documents that I will ask you questions
3 First of all, just a few introductory questions about Konjic
4 municipality. It's correct, isn't it, that Prozor, that's the
5 neighbouring municipality to Konjic?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And Gornji Vakuf is also a neighbouring municipality to Konjic?
8 A. A little further, not quite neighbouring, a little further off.
9 Konjic municipality does not border on Vakuf, it's not neighbouring to
11 Q. Okay, thank you. I would like you then to go to the first
12 document. It's in the binder, and it's numbered P00154. P0015 --
13 A. I do apologise, but what was the number?
14 Q. P00154. Have you found it, Mr. Juric? It's the second document
15 in the binder, and you'll first have the English version of the document
16 and then the B/C/S version.
17 MS. MOE: And before I go into the document itself, a piece of
18 information that was kindly given to me by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic. In
19 B/C/S, the document has only one page. In the English translation, there
20 is some additional information on page 2 that is not part of the B/C/S
21 original. So we'll be working with one page only, the first page in the
22 English version, which corresponds to the B/C/S version.
23 Q. Mr. Juric, if you look at the bottom of the document, you can see
24 that it's signed by Mate Boban, and up in the left-hand corner you see
25 that it's dated the 10th of April, 1992. It's an order that goes to all
1 municipal headquarters of the Croatian Defence Council. Have you seen
2 this document before?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I would still like to ask you about the contents of the
5 documents, and I'll read from the first paragraph. It says "Order,"
6 that's the headline, and it says the following:
7 "Since the start of the aggression on the Croatian territory of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, there has been inconsistency in the use of the
9 name for the Croatian forces in Herceg-Bosna. The former TO, serving the
10 Serbo-Chetnik armada, does not exist for Croats in Herceg-Bosna.
11 Therefore, during its meeting of 8th of April, 1992, the Presidency of
12 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna reached the decision that the
13 supreme body of Croatian defence in Herceg-Bosna will be named the
14 Croatian Defence Council."
15 I'll skip the paragraph and keep reading:
16 "The Croatian people were abandoned, but they organised and
17 defended themselves. They created their own defence and formed their own
18 defence forces. The Presidency of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna
19 has decided that the Croatian Defence Council will have exclusive supreme
20 command of these forces. This body is the only legal one and its name is
21 the only official one."
22 And then the last paragraph:
23 "All other military formations on the territory of the
24 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna are either illegal or enemy
25 formations. All other titles are no longer in official use."
1 So what Boban is saying in this document is that the HVO is the
2 only legal defence force in Herceg-Bosna. Were you aware of that at this
3 time in April 1992, that this was his view?
4 A. No. I said that this is the first time that I see this document
5 and the first time that I read through it. And it says at the top here
6 that it was self-organisation on the part of the units, and I explained
7 the situation in our area of Konjic, how it happened there. I said also
8 that the HVO in Konjic was established at the beginning of June 1992.
9 Q. My question was to the HVO in Herceg-Bosna, as a whole, and the
10 fact that Boban, on behalf of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council,
11 Boban says here that the HVO is the only legal defence force in
12 Herceg-Bosna. Did you know that that was the HVO view -- the central HVO
13 view at the time?
14 A. Your Honour, I've already said that I can just address military
15 matters. Now, anything directly linked to politics, I really don't have
16 enough knowledge to be able to talk about that.
17 Q. With all due respect, Mr. Juric, this seems to me to go to
18 military matters. It refers to the HVO as a defence force, and I'm
19 asking you whether you knew that Mr. Boban and the central HVO considered
20 the HVO only to be the legal defence force -- the legal force in
22 A. I can't answer that question in any precise terms.
23 Q. So does that mean that you never -- you didn't hear about that
24 from -- that that was the central HVO view at the time?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object. First, it's
1 been asked and answered. Second of all, based on his answer, it would
2 appear for him to do anything other than speculate at this point in time,
3 I don't see how he has the knowledge to answer that question, as phrased.
4 And now she's turning his answer into a question, which I believe is
5 unfair, because she's trying to make the gentleman appear as if he's
6 either uncooperative or the question assumes facts which are not in
7 evidence, in which case if he doesn't answer, then the question would
8 appear to be giving an answer to which this gentleman cannot ascribe to.
9 MS. MOE: Mr. President, I'll move on to --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe.
11 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. A different document, Mr. Juric. That would be P00 --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
14 Witness, that's all very well, I understand what you are saying.
15 You said that the HVO was formed in Konjic in June 1992. This document
16 is dated the 10th of April, so it's quite possible that this document was
17 something you were not aware of. However, in Konjic, were you never made
18 aware of a document of this kind? Because a while ago you told us that
19 this was the first time you saw this document. In the media, nobody said
20 anything about the fact that the HVO was the only armed force in 1992, in
21 the month of April?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in April 1992, there
23 was the Territorial Defence in Konjic municipality, manned jointly by the
24 Croats and Muslims, and I said that very clearly, that we acted together,
25 worked jointly, cooperated until June 1992. That was 16 years ago, so I
1 can't remember these documents now or discuss them, therefore.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Moe.
3 MS. MOE:
4 Q. Let's move on to a different document, Mr. Juric, and this is
5 P00195. This is, as you can see in the upper left-hand corner, this is
6 dated 8th of May, 1992. It's the HVO General Staff, and it's signed by
7 General Ante Roso. And it says -- well, I'll ask you first: Have you
8 seen this document before, Witness?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I still would like to ask you about the contents of the document,
11 and this is a military document, to put it that way, in the sense that
12 it's from the General Staff. And it says:
13 "On the basis of until-now-reached agreements, and in the case of
14 need, I issue command ..."
15 In the territory of the HZ-HB, the only legal military units are
16 the units of the HVO.
17 And that would be the same item of the same order/command that we
18 just saw in the Boban order. So, Mr. Juric, this is May 1992, and you
19 said earlier that you joined the HVO brigade in Konjic in September 1992,
20 so let's go to September 1992.
21 When you joined the HVO in September 1992, you were made aware
22 that your superiors, the General Staff's view, was that the HVO was the
23 only legal military force in Herceg-Bosna, weren't you?
24 A. No, not with that position, that somebody informed me that the
25 HVO was the sole legal force in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not in those terms.
1 Q. In what terms, then?
2 A. Well, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were two active forces, the
3 BH Army units and the HVO units. Those were the legal forces.
4 Q. Well, it says here that the only legal force are the units of the
5 HVO. That's the General Staff view. So who told you the opposite?
6 A. I'm just talking about what I knew, and what I saw, and what was
7 going on in my town, in the place I was in, and that is Konjic.
8 Q. So you're saying that you were never made aware of the
9 General Staff view, as set out here in the Roso command?
10 A. No, I didn't, I wasn't.
11 Q. I'll take that on board and I'll move to another document. It's
12 P00200. P00200 is an order from Tihomir Blaskic, and it's dated 11th of
13 May, 1992, as we can see in the left-hand upper corner. And it says:
14 "On the basis of the orders received from the Main Headquarters
15 Confidential number 01-331/92 of 8th of May, 1992 ..."
16 And I'd like to stop there for a second, because if we go back to
17 P00195, that's the document we just looked at, we can see that up in the
18 left-hand corner there is a number that complies with what I just quoted
19 from the Blaskic order. The number is, again, 01-331/92. So Mr. Blaskic
20 is referring to the rules of order when he makes his order. That's his
21 foundation, and Blaskic says, item number 1:
22 "The only legal military units in the area of Kiseljak
23 municipality are HVO units."
24 So, again, the language is that the only legal military units or
25 force is the HVO. So this is Blaskic giving an order in Kiseljak
1 municipality, and I put it to you: Wasn't the same type of order made in
2 Konjic municipality? Weren't you, at your municipal level, told that the
3 only legal military units are HVO units?
4 A. Your Honours, I never saw Mr. Blaskic. I just heard that he was
5 the commander, but throughout the war I never saw him. And what happened
6 in Kiseljak municipality, well, I know nothing about that, nor could I
7 have any knowledge about that. Now, the question that I'm being asked
8 now, that this order came down to us, I really know nothing about that.
9 Q. That was not my question, Mr. Juric. My question was, and I'm
11 "Wasn't the same type of order made in Konjic municipality?
12 Weren't you, at your municipal level, told that the only legal military
13 units are HVO units?"
14 A. During this period when this order was issued, at that point in
15 time I was a fighter, a combatant in the units, the joint units of the
16 BH Army and HVO, because we were still acting jointly. So I was there as
17 a fighter, not as a commander or someone close to the commander, for me
18 to be acquainted with this order. And the system of information at that
19 point in time wasn't functioning at all for me to be able to have any
20 knowledge about this.
21 Q. Let's go to September 1992.
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't wish to
23 interrupt or to object before the witness gave his answer. I allowed the
24 witness to answer so as not to be accused of helping him out. But can we
25 go back to the previous question asked by my learned friend? It has two
1 questions within it. The first question is asking the witness to make
2 conclusions, whether he can make conclusions about whether Blaskic's
3 order was applied in Konjic. That's the first part of the question, and
4 the second part is whether that was the situation in his municipality,
5 that is to say, Konjic municipality. And the witness has already
7 Now, my point is this: This is a witness to fact. He hasn't
8 been called in here to make any conclusions. He is a witness dealing
9 with the facts. He can say what he knows about, heard, possibly saw, and
10 so on, but not about Boban's orders in Kiseljak, did this happen in
11 Jablanica, and so on and so forth. He can't do that.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic, the witness
13 is a military man. At the time, he told us that he was serving in the
14 Territorial Defence. Perhaps the HVO municipality [as interpreted] in
15 Konjic may have told them at the time, We have received a document from
16 Mate Boban that states this and that. And he has said that he had not
17 heard about this.
18 Ms. Moe, the questions you put to him, well, that's all very
19 well, but it would have been much easier to conduct your investigation,
20 given the number of investigators you have, to look into the archives in
21 Konjic and check out Blaskic's order, and you could have checked this out
22 in the municipality of Konjic and we would not have wasted any time. The
23 witness, at any rate, is not aware of any of this.
24 MS. MOE: I'll move on, Mr. President.
25 Q. Can I ask you, Witness, to go to document P10926, please, 10926.
1 That will probably be towards the end of the binder. 10926, please.
2 10926, that's an order again. It's from the president of the
3 Croatian Defence Council, Mate Boban, and it's dated 10th of June, 1992,
4 and it says:
5 "Pursuant to the Statutory Decision on the provisional
6 establishment of the executive authority and administration on the
7 territory of the HZ-HB of May 1992, I hereby order: The establishment of
8 the executive authority of the HVO in the Konjic municipality, pursuant
9 to Article 7 --"
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned friend.
11 As far as I can see, the witness has not been able to locate the
12 document. While you're reading, I can see him going through the binder,
13 and maybe the usher could help the witness.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, please, could you go and
15 help the witness. I think he's a little bit lost. Even the Judges are
16 lost at times, all the more so a witness.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Otherwise, Witness, you can
19 just look at the screen. The document is displayed on the screen.
20 MS. MOE:
21 Q. Again, Witness, this is from Mate Boban, and it's an order to
22 establish the executive authority of the HVO in the Konjic municipality
23 from June 1992. And an executive authority of the HVO in Konjic was
24 established on Boban's orders, wasn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When was that?
2 A. That was in early June. There was a meeting. Actually, my unit
3 was established, Mr. Ivica Zinovic [phoen] and Dinko Zebic came and
4 conveyed to us the order to establish the civilian authorities in the
5 city of Konjic, and this gentleman, Ivan Zinovic [phoen] was appointed.
6 Before that, he was [indiscernible] Pavic's [phoen] assistant in the
7 Main Staff, and Dinko Zebic, as from then on, took over the position as
8 his commander of the HVO military units, and I already said that
10 Q. Thank you. Let's move to P10919, please. That would be in front
11 of that document you just looked at. P10919, please.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. Usher,
13 could you sort out the microphones of the witness, please.
14 MS. MOE:
15 Q. This is from the Konjic Municipality War Presidency, and if you
16 look at the end of the document, it's signed by coordinator of the Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina Army and the War Presidency of the Konjic Municipality,
18 Zejnil Delalic. The document should be on the screen in front of you
19 also , Witness, and it says:
20 "Public announcement. Regarding the announcement of the
21 Konjic HVO of 5th of July, 1992, filed under 02-944/92, we are making the
22 following announcement:
23 "The Konjic HVO has surfaced as a self-proclaimed organisation
24 allegedly in charge of supplying a complete range of products from
1 And I'll skip four paragraphs:
2 "The HVO, together with certain reactionary MUP forces or,
3 rather, former members of the State Security, is trying to carry out a
4 coup and overthrow all legal institutions of the Republic of Bosnia and
6 Witness, you said that the executive authority of the HVO had
7 been established in Konjic, and I put it to you that on a local level
8 also in Konjic, the Konjic HVO was trying to overthrow the legal
9 institutions of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Konjic. Isn't
10 that right, Mr. Juric?
11 A. Your Honours, let me go back to what I've already said, and that
12 concerns the politics, and let me just put it simply. What I can read
13 here is ridiculous. I find it ridiculous because I know that during that
14 period of time the gentleman that worked in the Political Department of
15 the HVO did not follow such guide-lines, nor did they want to achieve
16 what I can read in here. As far as I know, because I was not part of
17 this, I am not aware of any political decisions of that kind.
18 Q. I'll go to another document, then, Mr. Juric, and this will be
19 P10918, please. P10918 should be right in front of the one you just
20 looked at.
21 MS. MOE: Could we have the assistance of the usher, please.
22 Q. This is later. This is dated, up in the left-hand corner,
23 8th of March, 1993, and it goes to the War Presidency of Konjic
24 Municipality. And we see that it's signed by Peric, and it has the stamp
25 of the HDZ, Konjic Municipal Board. And the subject is: "Response to
1 your letter dated 4th of February, 1993."
2 "In respect to your letter," and there is a reference number and
3 again the date, "concerning the functioning of the War Presidency and
4 Executive Council in the Konjic Municipality ..."
5 And I'll go to the paragraph that starts a little above the
6 middle of the page:
7 "The authorities in BH are not legitimate because they have
8 discredited themselves with their passivity, ineffectiveness. In
9 compliance with the policy of the HDZ of BH, the HDZ of Konjic
10 Municipality has set up, at the municipal level, the transitional
11 executive authorities and administration in the form of the HVO/Croatian
12 Defence Council. The HVO of Konjic Municipality functions as an integral
13 part of the HVO HZ-HB."
14 So I put it to you, Witness, that the HVO, as established in
15 Konjic municipality, was a parallel authority that functioned in addition
16 to the legitimate BH authorities. Isn't that correct?
17 A. I'm not denying that those authorities existed and were active.
18 However, I cannot agree that they were independent in what they did.
19 Everything was done in agreement. And I emphasise that you are actually
20 talking about politics, and I don't know anything about these things.
21 Dragutin Peric was the president of the Croatian authorities in Konjic.
22 Please, if you can reduce your questions to the military matters. When
23 it comes to the politics, could you please not ask me anything about
24 that, because I almost don't know anything about that. I was interested
25 in politics in as much I needed to know just not to be a complete
1 ignorant in that matter.
2 Q. Well, the two last documents I put to you, Witness, the
3 foundation for my question was that you were in Konjic at the time, and
4 you also referred to the meeting where the HVO, the executive authority,
5 was established in Konjic in June 1992. So I put it to you that based on
6 the fact that you were there, you must have known these things, that
7 there was a parallel HVO authority that was set up in addition to legal
8 BiH civilian authorities.
9 A. Your Honours, I did say that a meeting was indeed held. However,
10 I did not say that I was present at the meeting.
11 Q. Well, I'll move on to military matters related concretely to you,
12 Mr. Juric, and I'll ask you to go to document P01637, please. P01637,
14 P01637, in the English translation, it says date illegible, up in
15 the left-hand corner, 1993, but in your B/C/S original, Witness, it says
16 "9th of March, 1993," doesn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we see that this is a command on the assignment to
19 Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Konjic, and it says that Dragan Juric, born
20 10th of July, 19 -- sorry, 1955, is appointed deputy commander, and it's
21 sent to the OZ Command, the unit, and the Personnel Administration, and
22 it's signed by Bruno Stojic. And there is a stamp, and in the English
23 version it refers to the stamp being the Military Police Administration,
24 but again Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic informed me that there was no reference
25 to the Military Police Administration, it's the Department of Defence,
1 which complies with Bruno Stojic signing it.
2 So, Witness, you were appointed deputy commander by this
3 document, weren't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. We're still in March 1993, and I'd like you to go to
6 a document that you looked at with Ms. Nozica yesterday. And it's
7 number 2D00253, and it's in the binder that you have in front of you.
9 That's a document that was shown to you yesterday. It's of 20th
10 of March, 1993. It's a memo from an ABiH meeting. And you said you
11 didn't know about a meeting yesterday, but nevertheless, you spoke about
12 the contents when Ms. Nozica asked you some questions, and I will do the
14 This is going back to what the Presiding Judge Antonetti brought
15 up with you yesterday, and I'm trying to -- I'm going to ask some
16 follow-up questions to that, and I'll take you to the second -- or the
17 first paragraph after the subject, and this is an assessment of the
18 military and security situation, and I'll go to the last sentence of that
19 paragraph. And it says:
20 "This deterioration," that would be the deterioration in the
21 relationship between the HVO and the state authorities of the BiH. "This
22 deterioration is caused by the HVO's enforcement of a parallel
24 And I'm not going to go into that again, but I'll ask you the
25 following: It says here that examples of HVO enforcement of a parallel
1 authority are: Enforcement of a taxation system. And there was
2 enforcement of a taxation system on behalf of the HVO, wasn't there?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. Okay. Let's skip two items, and I'll ask you here:
7 "All motor vehicles," still on the same page, Witness.
8 "All the motor vehicles are provided with new license plates of
9 the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and flags are raised on
10 buildings not authorised to display national insignia."
11 It's true, isn't it, that motor vehicles were provided with new
12 license plates of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, isn't it?
13 A. Yes, it's true.
14 Q. Thank you. I'm moving to page 2 of this memo. It's page 2 both
15 in the English and the B/C/S version. It's the second paragraph. It
17 "In view of the above," that is, the list of items considered by
18 the ABiH to be enforcement of parallel authority, in view of this "or the
19 Ruling by the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina on the cancellation of all the regulations covering the
21 establishment of the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna
22 (Official Gazette of the RBiH number 16/92), dated 18th of September,
23 1992 ..."
24 And my question goes to what I just read here, Mr. Juric. There
25 was a reference here in the memo to a ruling by the Constitutional Court
1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina that cancelled all the Herceg-Bosna regulations.
2 Were you familiar with that Constitutional Court decision basically
3 rendering Herceg-Bosna illegal?
4 A. No, I wasn't.
5 Q. You never heard about that?
6 A. No, never.
7 MS. MOE: Okay.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, based on that question, perhaps the
9 witness could be asked: Did the state government -- the Muslim
10 government, I should say, because it was the Izetbegovic government, did
11 it publicise that throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, because now if you're
12 going to pose that question, then the next question should be -- or there
13 should be some sort of a factual predicate which actually it was widely
14 disseminated, assuming that the Constitutional Court was in fact properly
15 constituted, which we maintain it was not, it was no longer a
16 properly-functioning court, it was an Izetbegovic court.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, you are pleading and making
18 witness statements now, I think.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I think it's for Ms. Moe to decide what
21 questions she wants to put to the witness. The witness said he didn't
22 know about the decision of the Constitutional Court, so how would he know
23 about whether it was made widely public?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, that's the whole point.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That is asked and answered, implicitly,
1 Mr. Karnavas.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me cover this
3 problem differently.
4 In 1992, in Konjic, did you have radio or television?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Were you able to
7 listen to Radio Sarajevo or Television Sarajevo? Were you able to hear
8 those two and watch?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So my question is
11 going to be very difficult. If you asked me the same question, I would
12 not be able to answer it, because we are talking about facts that took
13 place 16 years ago. But let me put this question, nevertheless: At the
14 time, do you remember hearing radio announcers or TV speakers saying, Our
15 Constitutional Court just cancelled all decisions of the HVO? Do you
16 know if you heard that on radio or on television in those days?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if my memory serves me
18 correctly, already in 1992, in March -- or, rather, in April of that
19 year, we had lost all the TV channels. I remember that vaguely at the
20 moment. I can't give you the exact date, but in any case, it was in the
21 first half of 1992 when we no longer had any TV reception, so we have to
22 exclude the possibility of anybody of us watching television. And as for
23 radio programmes, I never followed those anyway.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MS. MOE:
1 Q. Still in the same document, Mr. Juric, I'll ask you to look at
2 item 7. It's numbered 7, and as we know, this is a 20th of March ABiH
3 meeting, and it says:
4 "The line of defence against the aggressor shall be
5 fortified ..."
6 And the aggressor in this sense, that's the Serbs, isn't it?
7 A. It should have been the Serbs. However, there's a comma which
8 means a lot here.
9 Q. Well, when the ABiH makes reference to the aggressor, that's the
10 VRS, isn't it?
11 A. Please, could you read the sentence to the end? Maybe then I
12 will be able to tell you something about it.
13 Q. Well, let me ask you more generally. The aggressor, that's the
14 VRS, isn't it, and not necessarily related to this document, but in
15 general, the ABiH at this time?
16 A. Yes. The Army of Republika Srpska was the aggressor. However,
17 Jablanica, Kute, Here, and Scipe are mentioned here as the direction,
18 connected the Army of BiH with the neighbouring villages. I'm confused.
19 Maybe the HVO is meant as the aggressor, because at that meeting we were
20 no longer considered the aggressor.
21 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Juric, and this is a document -- the next
22 document is P01866. 01866. This is a record of the Operational Zone
23 South-Eastern Herzegovina, a commanders meeting with the commanders of
24 the immediately-subordinated units, and assistant commanders, and it's
25 dated 13th of April, 1993. You were present here, weren't you?
1 A. No, I was not.
2 Q. The reason I'm asking you directly is that it says here -- well,
3 the second paragraph:
4 "Absent from the meeting were the commander of the 1st HVO
5 Knez Domagoj Brigade, the commander of the Konjic Herceg Stjepan Brigade,
6 and the commander of the Tank Battalion."
7 So it says that your commander wasn't present. It also said, in
8 the introduction, that it was a meeting for assistant commanders, and as
9 we established previously, at this time you were assistant commander of
10 the Herceg Stjepan Brigade. Doesn't that indicate that you were present,
11 Mr. Juric?
12 A. I was not an assistant. I was a deputy. The brigade commander
13 had six of his assistants for intelligence, for security, for logistics,
14 for establishment and personnel, and an assistant for IPD. I was a
16 Q. So you're saying you weren't present, but I'll ask you about the
17 contents of the document and see if these are issues that you were told
18 about subsequent to the meeting. It says --
19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. The
20 question hasn't been put, so I would like to intervene.
21 If it says in the record that he was not a commander, and the
22 witness says that it wasn't him, I don't know what would be the basis for
23 a further question, and how could the witness have heard anything about
24 the minutes? I believe that the witness is expected to speculate from
25 now on. The question hasn't been put. That's why I've intervened.
1 Otherwise, I wouldn't have.
2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. It's been a long time since
3 I've been on my feet, but I'm going to intervene in this situation, with
4 apologies to my good colleague.
5 Your Honour, this is an absurd objection. We've heard over the
6 last two days, last day and a half, repeated questions to this effect,
7 asking the witness to speculate about all sorts of things where he was
8 not physically present. Indeed, virtually the entire Petkovic so-called
9 cross-examination, which in the Prosecution's continuing view wasn't
10 cross-examination at all, it was simply a friendly examination, was one
11 speculative question after another about things where the witness was not
12 presently there, but he was only too happy -- the witness was only too
13 happy to give answer after answer after answer to the leading questions
14 put by the Defence counsel. So for this objection to be raised now is
15 completely inconsistent with the last day and a half of practice.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go on, Madam Prosecutor.
18 You may continue on this topic. The witness will maybe remember
19 something. Maybe he'll tell you that he was not present at the meeting
20 at all, but you may put your questions.
21 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President. My questions go to the
22 witness's knowledge of the contents of the document. That's what I would
23 like to ask him about.
24 Q. And it says here, that's the end of the paragraph that I was
25 reading from, just above item 1:
1 "... the following conclusions were reached ..."
2 And number 1:
3 "The BH Army has succeeded in carrying out most of the plans from
4 record number strictly confidential 16-8/08-62/93 of 20th of March,
5 1993 ..."
6 And I'll stop there for a second, because if we go back to
7 2D00253, which is the document we just looked at, that document, the ABiH
8 memo, has this same reference number, 16-8/08-62/93. So this meeting of
9 the operational zone commanders and assistant commanders, including your
10 unit, refers to this memo. In other words, the HVO was in possession of
11 the ABiH memo from the 20th of March, 1993, wasn't it?
12 A. You mean in Mostar? As far as I can see, the meeting was in
13 Mostar. That's where it was held.
14 Q. That wasn't my question, Mr. Juric. As I said, this is a meeting
15 of the operational zone, and there's a reference to the Herceg Stjepan
16 Brigade, the commander not being present. Let me put it this way: You,
17 your brigade, had knowledge of this 20th of March ABiH memo, didn't you?
18 A. Well, only the operative zone could have had knowledge of that,
19 but as my commander wasn't present at the meeting, then most probably he
20 couldn't have been informed and have knowledge of what is said here, with
21 all the details and the elements from the meeting held on the 20th of
23 Q. But given that this was -- presumably this was important
24 information, wouldn't your brigade be informed about it from your
25 superiors, the operational zone?
1 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, this question is -- this question is
2 directly asking for speculation. It should be rephrased. He might be
3 asked whether anything like that was later received by the brigade, but
4 not, Wouldn't it be possible, blah-blah. It is speculation, pure and
6 MS. MOE: If I may, Mr. --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please move on and go
8 straight to the point, because I really have trouble understanding what
9 is it you want to highlight.
10 MS. MOE:
11 Q. Let me ask you more precisely, Witness. It says here, right
12 above the item number 1, that reports from the Konjic and Jablanica areas
13 were read out. Therefore, it seems that at this meeting, reports from
14 the Konjic and Jablanica areas were received. Then my question is:
15 Didn't this information of the 20th of March memo go in the other
16 direction, that is, from the operational zone to the Konjic HVO?
17 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise again for
18 intervening. There's communications coming from the accused in the
19 Croatian language that the witness can presumably hear. It's completely
20 inappropriate. The Chamber should put a stop to it immediately, please.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
22 let me just remind you of one thing, and that is that during my
23 cross-examination, we read reports from Konjic for the 13th of April,
24 1993, and so therefore the reports mentioned here, which my learned
25 friend has just referred to, is precisely what we saw a moment ago. So
1 I think that will help in understanding the issue better.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness. We're
3 wasting a lot of time on this question, but there is something that's
4 still bothering me.
5 Mr. Lasic, who is the commander of this zone, he organises a
6 meeting, and at the meeting various reports are raised, reports from the
7 Konjic area, for instance. I would like to know how is it that your
8 commander, or his assistant, were not present at the meeting? Is there
9 an explanation for this or not? I can understand that you were not
10 there. I believe you, that you were not there. I can understand that.
11 Militarily speaking, I cannot understand it when it's the commander of
12 the operational zone who organised this meeting. So shouldn't he have
13 called commanders of his operational zones? Maybe the commander is
14 there, maybe he's ill, or at least his assistant? But you're telling us,
15 No, we were not there. In fact, your commander, was he there or was he
16 not there?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he wasn't present
18 at the meeting.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, he wasn't there,
20 fine, because he was absent. And you weren't there either?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who drafted the report on the
23 situation in Konjic then? Had there been any written reports prior to
24 that? In that case, Lasic, Miljenko, said, We have received a report.
25 Could things have happened this way?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to
2 clarify a point, with your permission. The commander at this time spent,
3 in the village of Kostajnica, in Klisa, as we've already said, spent
4 time, and the 13th and 14th was when the all-out offensive was launched
5 against the HVO in Konjic. Now, where the commander was, the brigade
6 commander was, he had packet communications, so that the IPD assistant
7 who at that time, and I remember this vaguely, it is possible that he was
8 with him there and that he sent out this report, but I can't say that
9 with any certainty. It's just something I seem to vaguely remember when
10 I go back to these events in my head.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please proceed.
12 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm moving on.
13 Q. Mr. Juric, you've talked extensively about what happened in the
14 Konjic-Jablanica area in late March and April 1993, and you've talked
15 about Muslim or ABiH acts, and I put it to you: Isn't it true that what
16 the Muslims did at the time was, in fact, provoked by the Croats, by the
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just speaking about Konjic.
20 I didn't mention Jablanica at all, because I have no knowledge about
21 Jablanica, about that period, March and April, and for as long as I was
22 under an encirclement.
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but we had an
24 intervention there from the interpreter that the first part of the
25 witness's answer wasn't recorded, just the second part relating to
1 Konjic. But before that, he said that he is quite certain that the HVO
2 in Konjic did not attack the BH Army, and he's 100 per cent certain of
3 that. That's what he said, 100 per cent, the HVO did not attack the
4 BH Army. And that wasn't recorded, but the witness can repeat his
5 answer, because we see the interpreter's intervention on the transcript.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you agree with the
7 fact that you said, with 100 per cent certainty, that there had been no
8 attack on Konjic against the HVO?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO did not attack the BH Army.
10 That is 100 per cent correct.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please proceed.
12 MS. MOE:
13 Q. Well, firstly, Witness, I clearly remember that you'd been
14 talking about what happened in the Jablanica area when you were
15 questioned by Ms. Alaburic and Ms. Nozica. Isn't that correct? And this
16 goes to March and April 1993.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. If my learned friend
18 said that I asked him about Jablanica, she can refer to the transcript,
19 because I didn't ask a single question linked to Jablanica. So she can
20 check the transcript to see where that was.
21 MS. MOE:
22 Q. Well, let's go with Ms. Alaburic, then. You did talk about
23 Jablanica, didn't you, Witness, when you were questioned by Ms. Alaburic?
24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to
25 remind you that Doljani were mentioned, and the witness said he didn't
1 know what had happened in the village of Doljani.
2 MS. MOE: I'll move on, that is, I will go back to my original --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
4 MS. MOE: -- question.
5 Q. My question was not what you answered. My question was: I put
6 it to you, isn't it true that what the Muslims were doing in
7 March/April 1993, let's say in the Konjic area, that that was provoked by
8 the Croats, by the HVO?
9 A. I state once again, and let me repeat that, that the HVO from
10 Konjic, that wasn't provoked. I don't know what Croats you're referring
11 to, but the Croats from the HVO in Konjic did not provoke that.
12 Q. Okay. Let's go to a document. That's P01798, please. Yeah, I
13 apologise, it's a loose exhibit. Thank you, Judge Trechsel.
14 This is the minutes of the 34th session of the HVO. It's held on
15 the 3rd of April, 1993. As to participants, we can see that
16 Jadranko Prlic, Mate Boban and Bruno Stojic were present, among others.
17 And I assume you haven't seen this document before, Witness, but I would
18 still ask you some question to the contents of the document. It says
19 that the agenda of the meeting is: "Discussion of the documents of the
20 Vance-Owen Peace Plan." And if we go to page 2 of the document, the
21 penultimate paragraph, it says that:
22 "Until the Republic is fully demilitarised, the armed forces will
23 be organised in accordance with the relevant documents of the Vance-Owen
24 Peace Plan, and in the accordance with the joint statement issued after
25 the agreement of Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who led the
1 delegations of Croats and Muslims at the peace talks. The statement was
2 signed by Mr. Mate Boban, and its integral text reads as follows:"
3 And then I'll go to -- I'll skip some paragraphs and I'll go to
4 page 3. And at page 3, the last paragraph, it says:
5 "At this meeting, the HVO HZ-HB adopted the position that if the
6 aforementioned statement is not signed by the leaders of the Muslim
7 delegations in provinces numbers 3, 8 and 10, then the basic premises in
8 the peace plan, which states that all ethnic armed forces have to
9 withdraw to their domicile provinces, should apply."
10 And then continued from there on page 4:
11 "If the joint statement is not implemented, the appropriate
12 military and other authorities of the HVO HZ-HB shall implement this
13 provision of the basic document of the peace plan in regions numbers 3, 8
14 and 10."
15 You knew about this, Witness, didn't you, that the HVO decided to
16 unilaterally implement the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, including in Konjic,
17 didn't you?
18 A. At the beginning, you said straight away, and that is correct,
19 that I didn't know about this meeting at all. And as for the
20 Vance-Owen Plan, I saw it in the papers. It appeared in the press. But
21 as to its details and all the rest of it, I really can't say anything
22 about it.
23 Q. Let's --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, I'm a little bit
25 surprised. You know that the Bench controls the cross-examination of
1 witnesses, and you see whether a witness is able to answer a question or
2 not. The Vance-Owen Plan question is a question which has been addressed
3 many a time by prominent people, Mr. Okun, ambassadors, and so on and so
4 forth, and all these questions have been raised already, and you're
5 putting these questions again in the presence of someone who told us he
6 knows nothing about political issues and he knows nothing about the
7 Vance-Owen Plan, which he read about in the press, so you're wasting your
8 time. We are wasting our time, and you are wasting your time.
9 So you may reflect on this, and you may proceed, since you have
10 two hours.
11 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll try to take it down to
12 the municipal level, and the witness was in Konjic at this time, in one
13 of the municipalities involved.
14 Q. So I'd like to go to page 5 of this same document, please. And
15 the first paragraph here in the English version, it says:
16 "It was also agreed at the meeting that in the next couple of
17 days, members of the HVO HZ-HB should visit all municipalities in the
18 provinces numbers 3, 8 and 10 in order to explain to the authorities the
19 essence of the Vance-Owen documents and the conclusions of this meeting."
20 So I put it to you, Witness, that Konjic was one of these
21 municipalities, and members of the HVO HZ-HB were to visit the
22 municipalities to inform on the conclusions of the meeting. You were
23 informed of these conclusions, weren't you?
24 A. Well, I have to laugh because I'm confronted with all these
25 difficulties. I don't know about this. I know that through the
1 Vance-Owen Plan, there was Konjic somewhere in there. What number, I
2 don't know. And looking at this, well, I find myself in dire straits.
3 Who received this, where this was discussed, I really can't say. I have
4 absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
5 Q. Okay, excuse me. I'll move on to a different topic.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, irrespective of the
7 question that has been put to you, as far as you remember, no one came
8 from elsewhere to your municipality to discuss or to talk to the people
9 and say, well, there is this plan and this is what is going to happen?
10 People weren't gathered to discuss this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not what I'm
12 saying, 100 per cent. I don't say 100 per cent that nobody came, but I
13 wasn't aware of that, nor do I know about it, but I'm not claiming that
14 nobody came.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, do you think that the
16 second -- you were assistant commander of the brigade, so you were a
17 high-ranking military. You were the second man in the command. Is it
18 possible that you were not made aware of the fact that a prominent figure
19 from the HVO was coming to this town to spread the good news?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was a reserve
21 captain first class in the former JNA and I'm familiar with the military
22 hierarchy and the military matters. From the military aspect, a
23 commander had to be present at all the meetings, and his assistants for
24 the IPD, and they are the ones to inform us about the situation. And
25 since that unit was established in the war and the situation was as it
1 was, it was far -- or far removed from all things military or things as
2 perceived in military terms.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Maybe I can just add a question.
5 Mr. Juric, it seems that your attitude was -- or what you tell us
6 now is that as a military high officer, almost commander, next to the
7 commander, politics were none of your business. Is that what you are --
8 what your attitude was?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that politicians
10 run politics and commanders run a military. In military circles, there
11 were people who were designated to deal with politics, and they were
12 assistants for information and political activities.
13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Ms. Moe.
14 MS. MOE:
15 Q. Following on from that, Mr. Juric, I put it to you that you were
16 much more involved and had much more knowledge of both political and
17 military issues of the HVO and the HZ-HB than you are now telling us,
18 weren't you?
19 A. No, you're not right.
20 Q. I'll go into some documents on this.
21 Can we please go to P10927, P10927. P10927, if you look at the
22 end of the document, it says that it's from Brigade Deputy Commander
23 Dragan Juric. And if you go to the upper left-hand corner of the
24 document, you see that it's dated the 20th of May, 1993. And that would
25 be when you were in the area of the three villages that you mentioned,
1 wouldn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it says -- well, it says, on the right-hand side, that it
4 goes to the Main Staff, Mostar. It goes to the Operational Zone Command
5 in Tomislavgrad and the Rama Brigade Command, to Zeljko Siljeg in person,
6 Prozor, and it says "Report from Konjic":
7 "During the day, we received two reports and were asked to
8 forward them to you."
9 Where were these reports from?
10 A. This does not feature my signature. It says "Deputy commander of
11 the brigade." Anybody could have put that, and this is not a valid
13 Second of all, from the area where I was, not even a bird could
14 carry a document of this sort, so I did not go on reading the complete
15 article that has been written. If I managed to read it, then I will
16 possibly be able to tell you something more about it. However, my
17 opinion is that this was sent from the office of the brigade commander in
18 Klis, which had a package communication and he could send it that way.
19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. Maybe I can be of
21 Maybe the witness could be shown the heading of the document,
22 which shows where the document was sent from.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it says "Kostajnica." That's
24 where the commander was. As I've already told you, he had a package
25 communication system, and through that this could be sent. From the area
1 where I was, I could not -- at that moment, I could not communicate with
2 anybody. I did not have any elements that would allow me to send
3 something of this kind.
4 MS. MOE:
5 Q. But if we look at the document, Mr. Juric, and that would be the
6 original B/C/S version, it does have your name below the text, and it
7 does have a stamp that says that it was received at the Main Staff -- the
8 General Staff. And this would be packet communication, wouldn't it?
9 That's why there is no signature underneath?
10 Can I have an answer, Mr. Juric?
11 A. Please repeat the question.
12 Q. This was packet communication, wasn't it? That's why there is no
13 signature underneath?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you challenging the authenticity of this document? Are you
16 saying that it's not from you?
17 A. I did not write this document.
18 Q. But your name is underneath it, isn't it?
19 A. The name's there, but I did not write the document, nor could I
20 have. You see where the document was written. It says so in the heading
21 "Kostajnica, 25th of March, 1993, at 2200 hours."
22 Q. I do believe it should be the 20th of May --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one moment, please. I
24 assume that in the Stjepan Herceg Brigade, there were people that were
25 drafting text, intellectuals or law students. You were on the
1 front-line. You had your weapon and your feet in the mud, so I'm sure
2 you had other things to do. Since this is packet communication that
3 comes from Kostajnica, does this mean that there's an officer in charge,
4 or a soldier who is able to read and write, who would have drafted this
5 on the basis of documents and after having listened to the radio, and
6 then he prepares his report of a political nature and sends it on to the
7 authorities, and he puts your name, since you were the second in command?
8 He could have also written in there the name of the commander. It so
9 happens that you were the second in command and that your name is there;
10 is that why you tell us today that you did not prepare this document?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is correct that I
12 did not draft the document, and it is also correct that in the village of
13 Kostajnica, where the brigade commander was, that his assistant for IPD
14 was also there with him. And judging by the wording of the document, I
15 can only assume that this was drafted by the assistant for information
16 and political activities in the brigade, in the brigade, who was together
17 with the commander in Kostajnica, where the packet communication system
18 was, and that was the one that was used to send the document to the
19 operations zone and to the Main Staff.
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of
21 assistance. The witness has said it. Can you ask him where he was
22 physically at the time? He did say that in his examination-in-chief. He
23 said that physically he wasn't there.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A while ago, I said you had
25 your feet in the mud. Where were you, exactly? How far from Kostajnica
1 were you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost 30 kilometres away. That's
3 the distance between Konjic and Kostajnica, 30 kilometres.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which town?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Turije --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Turije.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Zabrdje, Zaslivlje, that's the
9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I
10 would like to say just one sentence that might help better understanding.
11 If you remember the map that I showed the witness, we saw two
12 enclaves. One enclave was Kostajnica, and the other one was Turije
13 village, and the witness says that he was there. So the witness was
14 never in the place where the document was issued.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 Ms. Moe, we will have a break now, a 20-minute break, since it is
17 time to have a break and think about all this. The witness was not
18 there. He was 30 kilometres away.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Please replace that there
20 had been an attack on Konjic against the HVO by that there had been an
21 attack on Konjic by the HVO. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is
1 With respect to the time left, you still have 54 minutes. I hope
2 that there won't be any objection, unless Ms. Nozica has additional
3 questions, but I hope that we'll be able to finish the testimony of this
4 witness today.
5 Ms. Prosecutor.
6 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. I have one more question to the document that we looked at before
8 the break, Mr. Juric. That's P10927, which you talked about, and this
9 question goes to the contents of the document. And I read out to you a
10 while ago from the start of the document. During the day, you received
11 two reports and were asked to forward them to you, and then there are
12 quotation marks, and the next paragraph should go to the contents of that
13 first report, and I'll read it out:
14 "Today, the Chief of Staff of the so-called ABiH,
15 Sefer Halilovic, broadcast the public threat over Muslim Radio Sarajevo
16 to the HVO of Konjic and the HVO of Jablanica, and all the Croatian
17 people in Konjic and Jablanica. As he said, unless the HVO stops with
18 persecutions in Mostar, it will cease to exist in Konjic and Jablanica.
19 Since the HVO in these areas is only defending the survival of the
20 Croatian people, who are threatened by an invasion of Islamic
21 fundamentalism, the intentions of the military junta from Sarajevo are
22 clear. What is involved is actually ethnic cleansing of the non-Muslim
23 population from areas that belong to the Croats under the
24 Vance-Owen Plan."
25 And I put it to you, Witness, that the Vance-Owen Plan and the
1 areas that belong to the Croats, these were issues that were discussed
2 amongst you, weren't it?
3 A. As regards the Vance-Owen Plan, in military terms, we did not
4 ascribe it a lot of significance. We did not consider that issue at our
5 briefings. We never debated that. It was a political issue, and there
6 are others who discussed this. And as for what you have just read out, I
7 did not write this. Even if I had, I would not have put the so-called
8 BiH Army and some other things, because the BiH Army was also a regular
9 army, as the HVO was, at least for me.
10 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Juric. Can you please go to document P10911,
11 P10911. This is a document -- an order that's dated 20th of May, 1993,
12 and we see that it's signed by you, Herceg Stjepan Brigade Deputy
13 Commander Dragan Juric, and it's sent to, we can see from the left-hand
14 side lower corner, Republika Srpska Army Command and Ljubinje commander,
15 and it says:
16 "On the basis of earlier talks between representatives of the
17 Republika Srpska Army and the Herceg Stjepan Brigade Command, I issue
18 this order:
19 "1. All the contacts between the mentioned subjects shall be
20 realised by persons authorised for that purpose by the superior commands.
21 "2. The brigade's deputy commander, the 2nd Battalion commander,
22 and the commander of the Ljubinje post, are the sole persons at the post
23 authorised to plan and coordinate the joint operations and activities
24 being planned in that regard."
25 And, Mr. Juric, these plans regarding coordination of joint
1 operations and activities, I put it to you that those were joint plans by
2 the HVO and the VRS to fight the Muslims. Isn't that right?
3 A. We never worked together against the BiH Army, not for a single
4 moment. We were not engaged in any military operations together with the
6 Q. But this goes to the joint -- these refer -- this document refers
7 to joint operations, and it goes to the Republika Srpska Command. Are
8 you saying these are not references to joint VRS and HVO operations?
9 A. The plateau that is referred to in this document, the Ljubinje
10 Mountain Plateau, before the conflict between us and BiH Army, the
11 Republika Srpska had its positions there. It says here that with regard
12 to any conversations and agreements, only the person mentioned herein can
13 maintain contacts with Republika Srpska in that area. There were some
14 other persons who appeared and wanted to do things that we were not aware
15 of, and that's why this order had been issued.
16 Q. Based on your answer, that the HVO never worked together against
17 the BiH Army with the VRS, I'd like you to go to P02910.
18 P02910, that's a document from Siljeg, and it's dated the
19 22nd of June, 1993, and it goes to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade,
20 Kostajnica. It should be on your screen as well, Witness. It's a short
21 document. It's from Siljeg. It's dated 27th -- sorry, 22nd of June,
22 1993, and it goes to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Kostajnica, and it says:
23 "Immediately request XY to open fire on Konjic and Celebici at
24 4.30 hours."
25 And XY, that refers to the VRS, doesn't it?
1 A. I would not know anything about this intelligence. I don't know.
2 The XY and all those things, I don't know anything about that. If you
3 have any further questions, I'm prepared to answer. This is an order
4 that I was not in a position to receive. I believe that this was sent to
5 the commander of the brigade in Kostajnica, if it was. It was not sent
6 to me. I did not have anything to do with anybody from that area.
7 Q. So you're saying that you don't know what the XY means?
8 A. No, I don't, I'm sure I don't.
9 Q. But this goes to --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
11 Witness, a very brief question.
12 To go back to the previous document, it is handwritten by
13 yourself. You sent this document to the Republika Srpska. I am a bit
14 baffled. Serbs are your enemies. You sent yourself document to the
15 enemy. Did you receive orders to that effect or was it to your own
16 initiative that you did this?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at that moment we were
18 encircled. We were effectively the front-line of the Republika Srpska
19 Army facing the BiH Army. We were the living shield -- human shield,
20 both the civilians and the troops. I could not receive orders from
21 anywhere. I did what I could in order to save the civilian population
22 that was in the area, i.e., to protect all the others who were in the
24 MS. MOE:
25 Q. Going back to the document --
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. I would still like to go back to
2 that order, the previous one which you have signed, and I still have not
3 understood what the joint operations refer to. What kind of joint
4 operations do you refer to?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were individuals there who
6 insisted on joint operations, and I emphasised that the joint operations
7 could not be carried out before this was approved by either myself or the
8 commander of the position in Ljubinje. There had been attempts for
9 people to influence the whole situation and to have joint operations
10 carried out, unbeknownst to me, in the area.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, that is quite interesting, perhaps. It
12 doesn't answer my question. You speak about joint operations. What do
13 you have in mind? Not other people speaking about this or that. You
14 have in mind joint operations, and only very limited persons, including
15 yourself, are authorised to negotiate these joint operations. What
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the Serb side, we
18 transported civilians from the area in six convoys, and that was our
19 cooperation with the Serbian Army. In that area, there were
20 300 nationals of Serb origin that we had been looking after at the
21 gravest of moments.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, I cannot check on the original language.
23 It's not something that an English speaker would think of when he hears
24 about joint operations, but I see I must leave it at that.
25 Ms. Moe.
1 MS. MOE:
2 Q. Going back to the document referring to XY, Mr. Juric, P02910,
3 it's going to be on the screen in a short while. You said you didn't
4 know what the XY referred to, but we see that Siljeg is sending this
5 document to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Kostajnica, so presumably he
6 expected the commander who received it, or the person who received it in
7 the brigade, to know what XY refers to. But you're saying that you did
8 not know?
9 A. Your Honours, I was not in a position to know whether the
10 commander knew the code or not. He could not inform me about the code.
11 The only communication that we had with the commander in Kostajnica was
12 the small Motorola, which is an open communication line, and you could
13 not use it to convey any military information or converse openly, because
14 anybody could have tapped into any such conversation.
15 Q. So you had communication with Kostajnica, then?
16 A. I just said that it was the Motorola, the radio sets that were
17 similar to a mobile phone.
18 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Juric.
19 Yesterday, you said, when being examined by Ms. Nozica, that
20 Konjic municipality had a Muslim majority before the war of 55 per cent;
22 A. Yes, 54 or 55 per cent is correct.
23 Q. And you were asked by Judge Antonetti about the notions of
24 Greater Croatia, in accordance with a document, and you said that Konjic
25 had a Muslim majority and could therefore not be part of Greater Croatia.
1 And I'll quote from the transcript from yesterday. You won't have it,
2 but just listen to what I'm saying, repeating what you stated yesterday.
3 It's page 57, line 16:
4 "Well, this kind of thing couldn't have been discussed in Konjic,
5 because the ratio between Muslims and Croats, in terms of numbers of
6 inhabitants, there were far fewer Croats, perhaps just a third or even
7 less than a third, so the Croats couldn't have accomplished what you've
8 just said, this greater Croatian state or whatever you just said."
9 That's what you stated, wasn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'd like to show you some maps, and they are in the loose
12 exhibits that should be -- should have been given to you earlier today.
13 Maybe we can have the assistance of the usher. It's, first,
14 P09276, please, and that would be map 9. That's the last map that you
15 have, Mr. Juric, in that little folder.
16 If you have a look at the map, please, you can see that this goes
17 to the ethnic composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991, and you can
18 see Konjic here, can't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it confirms what you said, that that's one of the
21 municipalities with an absolute Muslim majority; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please go to map 5. That would be the page prior to the one that
24 you're looking at now.
25 I still don't appreciate comments from the accused,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No comments, please.
3 MS. MOE:
4 Q. That's a map that shows -- that says the Banovina, 1939, showing
5 BiH municipalities, and we can see that Konjic is part of the Banovina of
6 1939. So you knew about that, didn't you, the Croatian Banovina and the
7 fact that Konjic was included in the Croatian Banovina?
8 A. I can't confirm this with any degree of certainty. While I went
9 to school, we did not learn about Banovina in history classes. To be
10 honest, I was never much interested in knowing anything about the
11 boundaries of the state at this time. Now I can see this - I'm looking
12 at the map - I've never seen it before.
13 Q. But were you familiar with the fact that Konjic was part of the
14 Croatian Banovina prior to seeing this map right now? You were, weren't
16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I'm not
17 intervening very willingly, especially in view of your intervention,
18 Your Honour. The witness has already answered and said that he did not
19 know of that before. Let's look at, together, the witness's answer.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In fact, he just said
21 that he was not taught at school about this, and he just told you also
22 that he saw this map for the first time now. But of course you can ask
23 him if he's ever heard of it before.
24 MS. MOE: Yes, that was my question.
25 Q. Before seeing this map here, Mr. Juric, were you familiar with
1 the fact that Konjic was part of the Croatian Banovina?
2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.
3 Perhaps it would be of assistance to us if we were to ask the witness
4 whether he knows what Banovina Hrvatska or Croatian Banovina, in fact, is
5 and means.
6 MS. MOE: I would like to put the question as I put it.
7 Q. Prior to seeing this map, Witness, were you familiar with Konjic
8 being part of the Croatian Banovina?
9 A. In my family, where I lived, and the circle of people that I
10 moved around in, we never discussed these banovinas, nor did I know about
11 them, and especially not whether Konjic [Realtime transcript read in
12 error "Croatia"] was part of the Croatian Banovina or not, because in the
13 period that I lived in, this was not a subject that was discussed at all.
14 Q. Let me show you a different map. This is map --
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction. Line 23 on the
16 previous page, the witness said whether Konjic was in the Banovina, and
17 it was recorded whether Croatia was in the Banovina.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: And, Your Honours, before we go into the maps,
19 because we're going to be spending some time on maps that we already have
20 seen, the gentleman, based on what he's already presented, I don't see
21 how much more value to the Trial Chamber will be to show the maps that
22 are in evidence, that the trial already knows, based on the answers that
23 he's given. I just mention this in order to save time.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's try to save
25 time, Ms. Moe.
1 MS. MOE: I'll move on to map number 3.
2 Q. That would be the first map in that little bundle that you have,
3 Mr. Juric.
4 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation.
5 Q. Can you hear me now?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This is a map that shows the Croatian Communities of Herceg-Bosna
8 and Bosanska Posavina 1991, and this map shows that Konjic was part of
9 Herceg-Bosna, doesn't it?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to the form of the question. Now she's
11 testifying. The gentleman has indicated that he doesn't know, first of
12 all, and she's testifying, based on that question. How do we know, from
13 her representations, that this map is actually accurate? That's my whole
14 point of my objection earlier, and I will be doing this on every map, on
15 every question.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Ms. Moe, you can tell the witness the following: "I'm showing
18 you a map. What can you tell me about this map?", for instance.
19 MS. MOE:
20 Q. Well, I'll go back to my starting point. You see that this is a
21 map, right, Witness, and it says that the Croatian Communities of
22 Herceg-Bosna are shown on this map.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I object. Just because it says it doesn't
24 mean it's so.
25 MS. MOE: I do believe I don't --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation].
2 [Interpretation] I'm going to repeat. Let me just check that
3 interpretation is working.
4 Unfortunately, we see that in 1991, the Herceg-Bosna Croat
5 Community is there. I mean, we have a text, but we can't do anything
6 about it. Ideally, it would have been better not to have the text, but
7 unfortunately the text is there. So this being said, Ms. Moe, please put
8 your question, and I'm waiting for an answer and the rest.
9 MS. MOE: I have the same question.
10 Q. This map shows that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, doesn't it?
11 A. That's what it says on the map. According to this map, the map
12 I'm looking at, that's how it's surrounded.
13 Q. And Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, wasn't it?
14 A. Let me say again, that's what would follow on the basis of this
15 map, but who drew up this map and who conceived it, I don't know.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness, I find this a bit difficult.
17 Are you telling us that you do not know whether Konjic, your place, was
18 part of Herceg-Bosna or not? Do you want us to believe that you ignore
19 even this?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that judging by this map
21 here --
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Please answer my question. I am asking you, as
23 a high military officer who worked in Konjic, were you ignorant of the
24 fact that the municipality of Konjic formed part of the Croat Republic of
25 Herceg-Bosna; yes or no? You knew or you did not know?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I did know.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay, thank you.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: At this point, Your Honour, I wish to point out,
4 based on that form of the question, that you're suggesting that the
5 entire municipality, as opposed to areas within the municipalities, were
6 part of Herceg-Bosna. We took -- we had extensive testimony on that, and
7 I think that's the fallacy with the map. The map draws in the entire
9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, that's the Defence's point. I accept that
10 you -- and you have now said that you doubt this, and I think it would be
11 helpful to go on.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: But I guess -- well, then if that's the case --
13 that's my position. I want to know whether it's the Bench's position or
14 your position that the entire municipality of every municipality drawn in
15 this map was Herceg-Bosna, because that's the problem that we have with
16 the map, and others would have. Areas may be part of Herceg-Bosna, but
17 the way it is, and it seems that we're still in the middle of the Defence
18 case, and now based on your question, you have asserted a fact of which I
19 need to be aware of.
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, Mr. Karnavas, unfortunately, so far the
21 Defence has not shown us evidence of certain parts of Konjic not being
22 included in Herceg-Bosna, and if we see this, of course, we are ready to
23 say that most or a large part, or whatever, of Konjic belonged to
24 Herceg-Bosna. But if you look at the basic text, you have the
25 municipality of Konjic mentioned there. I did not use the term
2 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, and I appreciate that. I would,
3 however, point out that we did present testimony concerning maybe not
4 every single municipality, but, for instance, we had testimony where we
5 did debate this issue or tried to counter the Prosecution's theory of
6 this issue of territory versus areas. That was my point, Your Honour,
7 and that's why. But if the Court feels it is necessary for the Defence
8 to bring in a map which shows exactly which areas within which
9 municipalities --
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, I think this is meandering a bit
12 MR. KARNAVAS: It is not, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. The witness has clearly answered that he
14 knew that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, full stop, and we're not going
15 into the details of "podrucje" or "teritorija." I leave that open, I
16 expressly leave that open.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that. You did press the witness,
18 Your Honour, you did form an opinion, you told us that, I realise that,
19 and now I'm fully aware that we need to present further evidence on this
20 point, and I appreciate that. I'm not trying to meander.
21 I apologise for taking the time. Thank you.
22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours, but in
23 view of the question just raised by Judge Trechsel, I have to intervene.
24 On page 71, lines 5 and 6, Judge Trechsel told the witness the
1 "Do you want us to believe that you ignore even this?"
2 And I consider that that position on the part of Judge Trechsel
3 is not commensurate to this stage of the proceedings. Judge Trechsel
4 presented his view here; namely, that the witness didn't know certain
5 things, and now he says: "Do you want us to believe that you ignore even
6 this?" I think that that is a conclusion that the Prosecutor may be
7 allowed to make in his closing arguments, based on the statements by this
8 witness; but I, as Defence counsel for Mr. Bruno Stojic, I have to say
9 that an assessment and evaluation of this witness's testimony will be
10 weighed up in the way he testified. He testified about things he knew.
11 He was very frank in saying what he knew of and what he did not know
12 about, and he told the Defence that and he told the Prosecutors that. So
13 this gives rise to concern, seeing this sentence on the record, because
14 it seems to be a position taken with regard to this witness's testimony
15 before the witness has concluded his testimony.
16 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.
17 So the record is balanced, this trial, as the President mentioned
18 several days ago -- yesterday, excuse me, this trial has been going on
19 for three years. The Chamber has heard an abundance of evidence on this
20 point. This map is in evidence. Other documents are in evidence, which
21 clearly show absolutely, without question, clearly show -- and this is
22 argument, but that's what counsel are doing now, so I'm doing the same
23 thing -- show that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna. It's been in
24 document and document after document, map after map after map.
25 We cannot -- no party, including the Defence or the Prosecution,
1 can put three years' worth of evidence to every witness. There comes a
2 time when everyone in the courtroom must presume to build on a certain
3 foundation, and there's nothing improper whatsoever, in my submission,
4 and again I want the record to be balanced -- excuse me, maybe
5 Mr. Praljak can sit down until I'm finished. Excuse me.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please let the
7 Prosecutor finish.
8 MR. SCOTT: [Previous translation continues] ... Judge Trechsel's
9 comment, and again I'm saying this so that the record is balanced.
10 Judge Trechsel's comment was entirely proper in keeping with observations
11 on the state of the evidence, which a Judge can do at any time in these
12 proceedings, and it's simply we're really wasting time. And I wouldn't
13 have gotten on my feet, except that at this point, given the comments
14 that have been made, I think that the record had to be balanced.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To avoid wasting any time, let
17 me say this. To know whether Konjic is or is not part of the Croatian
18 Community, it's important to establish a distinction between the notions
19 of de jure and de facto. There is one document, which is P79, which has
20 not been mentioned, which is the Constitution of Croatian Community of
21 Herceg-Bosna, which includes Konjic, so de jure, according to this
22 document, Konjic is part of the Croatian Community. Now, de facto,
23 perhaps this was not the case, so the Bench, at the end of the
24 proceedings, will have to assess whether this document P79 is an
25 illustration of what actually happened and reflects what occurred.
1 Nonetheless, I'm still keeping my eye on the time, and I shall
2 give you the floor back now, Ms. Moe.
3 MS. MOE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. I'll move to my last map, and that would be P10068. And that's
5 also one of the loose documents, Witness, and that's map 37.
6 I think you're in the wrong -- in the wrong bundle, Mr. Juric.
7 MS. MOE: Mr. Usher, could we have the assistance -- some
8 assistance, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it on the screen up here.
10 MS. MOE:
11 Q. Okay. It's 10068, map 37. And this -- Witness, this map shows
12 the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, 25th of March, 1993, and you can see from the
13 legend that certain numbers, provinces, are to be Muslim areas, certain
14 provinces are to be Serb areas, Croat areas, and mixed. Excuse me. And
15 you see, don't you, that according to this map, Konjic is to be a Croat
17 A. According to the map, yes.
18 Q. And that is in spite of the fact that, as you said, Konjic had a
19 Muslim majority prior to the war; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it would not surprise you, would it, if many of the Muslims
22 in Konjic did not feel so positive about the municipality being part of a
23 Croat province, according to the Vance-Owen Peace Plan?
24 A. It's a difficult question for me to be able to provide an answer,
25 what the Muslims thought about the Vance-Owen Plan, or Konjic within that
2 Q. Let me ask you a different question, then. It would not surprise
3 you, would it, if many of the Muslims in Konjic did not feel so positive
4 about Konjic being part of Herceg-Bosna, would it?
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Moe, I think this question is perceived as
6 asking for speculation, and I do not quite see what the interest for the
7 Chamber is of what the witness thought in this respect.
8 MS. MOE: I'll move on, Judge Trechsel.
9 I'd like -- I don't appreciate the comments from the counsel,
11 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, I was talking to my colleague. It was
12 not a comment.
13 MS. MOE:
14 Q. Can we please go to P10 -- excuse me, P10922. That's in the
15 binder, Witness. This is an article from "Vreme" magazine. 5th of July,
16 1993, that's the date. "Vreme" magazine, that's a Serb publication,
17 isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. From Serbia? From Serbia?
20 I asked you a question, Witness. Is "Vreme" magazine a Serb
21 publication from Serbia?
22 A. I didn't know that, but I'm reading this now, so -- well, I don't
23 know exactly.
24 Q. On page 2, there is a photo. That's a photo of you, isn't it, to
25 the right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember making a statement to the journalist from
4 A. I can't remember just now, but I can explain what this is about.
5 Q. I'll ask you the questions, thank you. And I'll go to your
6 statement. This article goes to an alliance between the VRS and the HVO
7 at the time, and I would like to ask you about your statement, as I said,
8 and that would be on the page that is numbered 33 in your article. You
9 can see the page numbers down to the right. It's on page 4 of the
10 English translation, and the headline is "An Orthodox Bishop and a
11 Friar." And the next paragraph, I'll read it out:
12 "The Chief of Staff of Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Mr. Dragan Juric,
13 was somewhat more specific and realistic, revealing a part of a real
14 picture of this alliance. The events here have compelled us to establish
15 cooperation with those whom we have recently still pointed our guns at.
16 It didn't take us long to put that time behind us, and I think that the
17 politicians should realise that this is the only way to defend what is
18 left of our people. Muslims are very strong here. They have brought
19 people from Eastern Bosnia, and there are a lot of mercenaries,
20 Mujahedin, from Iran, Kuwait and Morocco. They obtain their weapons
21 mainly via UNPROFOR pipelines, and we can prove that. Money is always
22 behind everything."
23 And then what I would like you to pay particular attention to:
24 "As for the border of Herceg-Bosna, we have no disputes with
25 Serbs, but neither side can live with Muslims any longer. I think that
1 we shall make a joint effort and force Muslims to leave these areas."
2 And I put it to you, Mr. Juric, what I said to you before the
3 break. I put to you that you had good knowledge, both politically and
4 militarily, about what was going on at the time, and I put it to you that
5 what you say here proves that point, doesn't it?
6 A. First of all, I cannot assess what the gentleman who wrote this
7 wrote. I was wounded on the 2nd of July and in a very difficult
8 situation, and I was transferred because I had a temperature, I was
9 running a temperature, and they were going to amputate my leg. I was
10 transferred to Republika Srpska and the war hospital there, and I was
11 operated on there. I was running a high fever, and after that I remember
12 that some journalist turned up to interview me. That's all I can say, as
13 far as the condition I was in when this was written, because I stayed in
14 the area for seven days, I had all these troubles to contend with, and
15 their policemen were in front of the door to the room I was lying in and
16 I kept hearing people shout, Let's see that Ustasha commander who's lying
17 in bed there. So after spending eight days there, they sent me back to
18 Turije, and my recuperation lasted another month and 20 days, roughly.
19 So I don't deny that I was there, I don't deny having said some
20 things, but similarly as to what is set out here, I think -- I don't
21 think it's all truthful and I think it has been added on to, because in
22 those days I was having a great deal of problems and my life was hanging
23 in the balance.
24 MS. MOE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one point of
1 clarification, Witness, unless there has been a mistake.
2 You were taken to this hospital for your leg to be amputated.
3 Were you actually amputated or not?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no, I underwent two
5 surgical procedures and they were able to save my leg.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Ms. Nozica.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 I would kindly ask the usher to distribute some documents that
10 I've been able to prepare in the meantime, and I also believe that I will
11 be able to call them up on e-court.
12 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:
13 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. Juric, let's start with the
14 moment you were wounded and the last thing you said, and that was that at
15 the time, you were treated in the territory that was held by the Serbs.
16 Did you have an opportunity, you who were in the territory of Turije,
17 Zabrdje and Zaslivlje, as you have described for us and for the
18 Trial Chamber in your direct examination, did you have an opportunity to
19 be treated anywhere else? Did you or any other members of your unit have
20 an opportunity to choose anywhere else to be treated?
21 A. No. We had two physicians in the area who were working in a
22 garage. There were six beds there, and they could only treat some slight
23 wounds. Everything else, we had to seek approval to transfer such
24 wounded, and the Serbs helped us with that. However, three of our
25 soldiers, two members of the military police and another foot soldier,
1 were taken for treatment and were liquidated up there. They never
2 returned. It was only last year that the body of Mario Vidackovic, a
3 military policeman, was exchanged. And as for the other two, we still
4 don't know what their lot was.
5 Q. Mr. Juric, you have just told us that you were forced, if I
6 understood you well, because there was no other place for you to be
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that three members of the HVO who went for treatment in the
10 territory of Republika Srpska have been liquidated and never returned; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know that at the moment when you were taken for
14 treatment? Did you know what risk you were exposed to?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I am going to repeat and ask you: Did you have any other
17 opportunity? Could you be taken anywhere else to be treated in your
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Very well. Mr. Juric, while you were in the area, first as the
21 commander of the area and then in the staff or in leadership of the area,
22 how many civilians, approximately, or members of the HVO were treated in
23 the territory of Republika Srpska?
24 A. I don't know the exact number, but I would say that their number
25 was up to 20, maybe less than 20. I'm saying up to 20 because I'm not
1 aware of the exact number. If I ever knew it, I've forgotten in the
3 Q. Mr. Juric, let me go back to a document that was shown to you by
4 the Prosecutor. It is not in my binder.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number?
6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the number. 10911.
7 Q. You don't have to -- I believe it's the document that -- look at
8 it in e-court, Mr. Juric. This will save us some time. It's an order
9 that you signed, and I will kindly ask you to comment upon it.
10 Mr. Juric, you said that there were no joint operations with the
11 Army of Republika Srpska. Kindly tell me whether the Army of
12 Republika Srpska, at the time while you were in the area, acted or was
13 engaged against the position of the BiH Army.
14 A. While we were there in that area, the VRS would occasionally
15 shell the town of Konjic and certain positions. It opened fire on our
16 defence lines. Shells fell on our defence lines. We had two seriously
17 wounded who succumbed to his wounds, and we had some other slightly
19 Q. In the operations launched by the Army of Republika Srpska
20 against the position of -- positions of the BiH Army when you were also
21 hit, or any time later, had you ever engaged in any negotiations between
22 you, as the commander of the sector, and them to engage in joint
24 A. No, there were no negotiations, there were no agreements to that
25 effect. However, when it comes to that area and that conflict in the
1 area, they controlled all that very well because they were much higher
2 above the area, so from all of their positions they could have a clear
3 view of the position and where the combat was taking place. And as soon
4 as a combat started in one of the sectors, they would start acting
5 against that sector in order to protect themselves, because they were
6 aware that if our lines had been broken and if the area was taken control
7 of, that the situation would be compounded and they would come under
8 threat. They kept us there as the human shield, as the first defence
9 line, although they had lines behind ours and there was a
10 minefield between us and them.
11 Q. Did I understand you properly when you said that between you and
12 the Army of Republika Srpska, there were minefields? Did you say that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was the strip of minefields?
15 A. It went from Ljubinje, down to Turije, and according to my
16 estimate it was a hardly-accessible area, and in some places the mines
17 were not necessary. In any case, the length of that area was about five
18 kilometres with minefields. It was hardly-accessible terrain. No
19 minefields were necessary there because there were streams and brooks,
20 and very hard to negotiate for a foot soldier.
21 Q. You said that in front of you, there was the BiH Army, and that
22 above you, in the pocket where you were, there was the Army of
23 Republika Srpska. Did I understand you properly?
24 A. Yes, you did.
25 Q. Tell me, please, you also said that you negotiated with the
1 Army of Republika Srpska about the transfer of civilians, and there was
2 quite a large number of civilians in your territory?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We also saw and heard, from the question that my learned friend
5 put to you, and I followed up on it, that you were treated together with
6 some other members of the HVO in that area?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also said, and I want to repeat, that there were no joint
9 military operations involving yourselves and the Army of Republika Srpska
10 against the BH Army; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Mr. Juric, in the situation that you found yourselves in in the
13 pocket, completely encircled, did you negotiate with members of the
14 BiH Army?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber when the negotiations took
17 place, the negotiations to deal with your unfortunate situation? When
18 did they start, actually? Did they start immediately after you came
19 there? Did they continue until your departure from the area?
20 A. The negotiations with the BiH Army started sometime in July.
21 Q. Very well. And now I will ask you to look at a document. We
22 shall rely on e-court.
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can I call up P6555. Could we
24 please see it in e-court. I have not prepared it in hard copy because I
25 decided to show the document at the last moment, after my -- after the
1 last question put by my learned friend.
2 Q. Look at the document. This is a report from the Herceg Stjepan
3 Turije Battalion.
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
5 the last page of the document.
6 Q. In the meantime, I'm going to say that this document was signed
7 by Mr. Mladen Zovko, Kuhar, and this document originated from the
8 Independent Battalion Herceg Stjepan, Turije.
9 It says in the document that in a conversation with
10 Haris Silajdzic on October 19, 1993, on an exchange of prisoners of war,
11 it says:
12 "I was invited to Silajdzic's place for a conversation."
13 This is what Mr. Kuhar says. Who was Mr. Kuhar?
14 A. He was my assistant for security while I was the commander of the
15 area, and on 19 October 1993, when this was drafted, at the time he was
16 the deputy commander of the area or the -- and still he was the assistant
17 commander for security.
18 Q. He says here the meeting was attended by Mladen Zovko and
19 Jerko Petkovic, who represented the Herceg Stjepan Independent Battalion.
20 Is there somebody called Jerko?
21 A. No, there was Zeljko.
22 Q. "... and the commander of the 6th Corps, Mr. Salko Music, and a
23 member of the Supreme Command, Bosiocic, Zagi, represented the Muslim
24 side. Apart from the talks concerning the exchange, the mentioned
25 individuals offered us to surrender our positions to them, and in
1 exchange they would enable the evacuation of soldiers and civilians from
2 our three territories across their territory.
3 "Haris Silajdzic, during the talks, and I talked to personally,
4 provided guarantees regarding possible operation. On the
5 3rd of November, I met with Fahrudin Fazlic, also known as Braco, and he
6 informed me that he had been authorised by Silajdzic to negotiate with me
7 regarding the issue of our positions. On that occasion, he offered to
8 buy off from us 70 per cent of our small arms, all the heavy weaponry,
9 and the food that has remained, and they were prepared to pay
10 500.000 Deutschemarks for all that.
11 "I replied that they could possibly get small arms at the
12 demarcation line and the aforementioned individual accepted that."
13 It goes on to say what the topic of the conversation was and how
14 it went on, and I'm going to ask you this: Did you know about these
15 contacts between the Independent Battalion Herceg Stjepan, Turije, or
16 with your area with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina to negotiate the
17 transport of you and the civilians from the area ?
18 A. Since this period of time I performed the duty of the assistant
19 commander for dealing with civilians, in other words, my job is to accept
20 civilians, to look after them, and for the concern for the civilians in
21 the area. And as for these events described herein, we simply mentioned
22 that in a short briefing, but nothing about the money or the sale of
23 weapons. I didn't know anything about that.
24 Q. Mr. Juric, my general question to you is this: Did you know that
25 starting from July 1993 onwards, that there were contacts and
1 negotiations both with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to deal
2 with your hard position?
3 A. Yes, I knew that.
4 Q. I'm now going to ask you very briefly, how long did the conflict
5 between you and the BiH Army last, until when?
6 A. Until the beginning of September 1993. That was the last attack
7 that was carried out, and as of that time, the beginning of September,
8 until the month of March 1994, the BiH Army never attacked us. There
9 were no infantry or artillery attacks. During that time, we even
10 embarked on joint work. A commission was set up which provided for
11 electricity for Konjic, because the long-distance lines went to our area,
12 we allowed that. Joint commissions were set up. We toured the area, and
13 towards the end of 1993, on the eve of the new year, our villages got
14 electricity as well as the town of Konjic. We all got electricity.
15 And one more thing that I would like to say. During the
16 negotiations which were carried out with the other -- the one and the
17 other side, which is very important, we could not transport civilians
18 through Jablanica, because civilians had arrived from there in our area.
19 We transported them through the Serbian side. That was our concession to
20 them for having helped their civilians. And as for the combatants, both
21 sides emphasised that no single combatant from the area could leave the
22 area. First of all, they would be disarmed; second of all, they would be
23 taken to a camp, to detention; and, thirdly, their further lot would be
24 decided by higher echelons, which means that nobody in the area was
25 competent to decide what would happen to such combatants later on, if
1 they surrendered.
2 Q. Let me just ask you briefly. When you say "both sides," the one
3 and the other side, you mean the BH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska
4 already had Croatian detainees in their prisons?
5 A. The BH Army did have Croats in the sports hall up to November,
6 there were 400 of our combatants there. And as for the Serbian side
7 which was in contact with us, I don't know whether there were any
8 detainees there.
9 Q. And did you know that there were prisons further afield on the
10 territory of Republika Srpska where Croats had been kept? Did you hear
11 anything about that after the end of the war?
12 A. The policemen who got killed.
13 Q. I apologise to the interpreters. You started by saying you're a
15 A. The policeman, Mario Vidackovic, who was killed up there, he had
16 been taken to the camp in Foca.
17 Q. And now I'm going to ask you briefly to look at a document that
18 you were shown by the Prosecutor. They are in the big binder that you've
19 received. They follow a sequence in which I'm going to be using them.
20 First of all, you were shown a report signed by Zejnil Delalic,
21 and this is a publication without a date, but it follows on the report of
22 HVO Konjic, and it says here that the HVO is doing something of their own
23 will. The number of the document is P101 -- I apologise, P10919.
24 We have it now. Did you find it, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In this public announcement, Mr. Delalic writes against the HVO.
2 It seems that the document was issued in July, although it doesn't bear a
3 date, and he is referring to a public announcement by the HVO Konjic.
4 I'm going to show you the next document to establish a link between the
5 two documents. So this first document is from the month of July, and now
6 look at 2D767, which is the following document in the sequence that has
7 already been shown to you.
8 Have you got the second document in front of you now?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Mr. Juric, a reference is made to a coordinator. We have already
11 spoken in this -- about this document and misinformation which was
12 directed against the HVO about the situation in Konjic, and it says in
13 this document that the coordinator was Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Would you
14 agree with that?
15 A. I'm not sure, but I believe that you're correct. I'm not sure.
16 Q. Could you please look at the following document. Were there any
17 other coordinators? Did anybody introduce themselves to you as
18 coordinator? I'm sorry for insisting. Did you hear of him being such a
20 A. I could not be informed about that. I knew that he was the
21 commander of the Tactical Group TG-1 for Igman. However, since I was not
22 well informed about that, I can't say anything about that.
23 Q. I won't insist. Let's look at something else.
24 We saw what the coordinator did in both cases, and now look at
25 2D798. We have already seen the document. I showed it to you earlier.
1 Do you see it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we see here that this is an announcement from a joint meeting
4 which took place in October 1992, two or three months after the public
5 announcement by the coordinator, who said that the HVO was the one
6 provoking conflicts. This is an announcement which was signed by the
7 commander of the staff of the BiH Army for Konjic and the commander of
8 the HVO. We carefully read it. Does it arise from this announcement
9 that there were no significant problems in Konjic between the BiH Army
10 and the HVO; on the contrary, that that cooperation was at a high very
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Very well. I'm showing you the documents because it has been
14 implied by my learned friend, the Prosecutor, that the HVO provoked all
15 the conflicts, and we clearly see and we insist on the fact that the
16 commander of the staff of the BiH Army in Konjic co-signed this
17 announcement. Am I right?
18 A. Yes, you are.
19 Q. Very well, then. I'm now going to ask you to look at document
20 P01866. Mr. Juric, did you find it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is from a meeting that you didn't attend, according to you,
23 and it says very clearly here that not even the commander of your unit
24 was at the meeting; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when this meeting took place? Was
2 it at 10.00, as it says here? And you were asked whether you were aware
3 of all these positions, and you said you were not, and it was implied
4 that you could have been aware of the meeting that took place on the
5 20th of March, 1993, and it says here that the minutes of the meeting
6 were discussed on the 13th of April, 1993. And now I'm going to ask you
7 to tell the Trial Chamber what happened that night. We don't know where
8 the meeting took place. It is to be assumed that it was in Mostar.
9 However, I would like you to tell us what happened during the night
10 between the 13th and the 14th of April, 1993, although we have already
11 spoken about that. Could you please repeat what was said and what you
13 A. The 13th and the 14th of April, 1993, this was the beginning of
14 an all-out attack of the BiH Army against Konjic.
15 Q. Mr. Juric, before that attack, around the 10th to the 13th, did
16 you know anything about the blocking of the roads leading to Mostar that
17 had been carried out by the HVO and a blockade of the roads around
19 A. Could you please repeat the question?
20 Q. I apologise. Did you know that the BiH Army, and I misspoke, I
21 apologise, that the BiH Army, around those days, on the eve of that
22 attack, carried out a blockade of the roads around Konjic, especially
23 those leading to Jablanica?
24 A. All the check-points that were in the area were manned by the
25 BiH Army. There were neither the MUP or the HVO in any of the
2 Q. Are you saying that the check-points that had been established
3 earlier, did I understand you properly, on that day were exclusively
4 under the control of the BiH Army and the HVO? I'm going to ask you, and
5 if you don't know, please don't answer. Is it possible that the
6 commander of your brigade could go to Mostar to this meeting and go
7 through all these check-points?
8 A. I believe that that was the very reason why he didn't go. The
9 answer may not be correct. This is just my opinion. That's what I'm
11 Q. What is your opinion?
12 A. My opinion is that he may have been prevented by the fact that he
13 might have been imprisoned when attempting to pass through the
15 Q. And now let's look at the last document. I believe that it begs
16 clarification. The number is P10927. Did you find it, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Juric, you said that you did not sign this document. I would
19 kindly ask you to provide another very concise explanation. This is a
20 document that obviously originates from Kostajnica. Can you tell the
21 Trial Chamber, when you said, I could not have sent this because I wasn't
22 there, could you tell the Trial Chamber and explain to the Trial Chamber
23 where you were on the 20th of May, since when you were there, and where
24 was Kostajnica from which the document was obviously sent?
25 A. During this period of time, well, when this was written, I was in
1 the area between Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje. Kostajnica is at the
2 very entrance into Buturovic field, some 20-plus kilometres away from
3 Konjic, i.e., from the area where I was between Turije, Zabrdje and
5 Q. You already said this, but please repeat. Who was in Kostajnica
6 at the time?
7 A. At that point in time, as for the Brigade Command, there was the
8 brigade commander and his assistant for IPD, i.e., Information and
9 Political Activity. The two of them were in the communications centre,
10 as it were, where the packet communication system was all the time.
11 Q. Tell me, please, just for the transcript, since when were you in
12 the territory of Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje, and until when?
13 A. I was there from the 18th of April, 1993, until, and I can't
14 really be precise, it was either the 15th or the 16th of March, 1994.
15 Q. Can you tell the honourable Trial Chamber whether you could in
16 any way send a courier, maybe, on the 20th of May, 1993, and dispatch
17 this report?
18 A. I have already said to the Trial Chamber there was no way for me
19 to do that.
20 Q. Mr. Juric, this report is from Konjic. This is not a report from
21 Turije, Zabrdje or Zaslivlje; is that what you could agree with? Look at
22 the first page, please. It says: "A report from Konjic," does it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In this report, it says that somebody was listening to the radio
25 on the 12th of April and the 23rd of April, and there is an emphasis on
1 the letter date, and you said to the Trial Chamber that you were without
2 electricity at the time. Were you in a position to listen to the
3 Radio Konjic on the 23rd of April?
4 A. No, I was not. In the area where I was, I couldn't listen to the
6 Q. This is what I wanted to ask you. Thank you very much. And
7 further on, although he you have already directly answered this,
8 Mr. Juric, did you have any packet communication in that area? Because
9 we can see in the document that it was dispatched by packet communication
10 on the 20th of May, or, rather, received by the Main Staff on the
11 20th of May at 2400 hours. Did you have any possibility to send a
12 document from Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje by packet communication?
13 A. No.
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Juric. I
15 have no further questions for you.
16 Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to testify at the
19 request of Mr. Stojic's Defence. I would like to wish you a safe return
20 home, and I would like to ask Mr. Usher to escort you outside of this
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's hear what's
24 planned for next week.
25 As you all know, Mr. Praljak's Defence will intervene. The
1 Chamber rendered a decision under Article 84 -- Rule 84 of the Rules.
2 Mr. Kovacic will have one hour and thirty minutes to present his -- to
3 submit his motion, and after that Mr. Praljak will be sworn in and he
4 will make his opening statement under Rule 84 bis of the Rules.
5 The Trial Chamber stated that Mr. Praljak will have one hour and
6 thirty minutes. This was handed down. It's registered, and the decision
7 will be translated if it has not been translated yet.
8 So this is something I wanted to tell you already now.
9 We are going to reconvene Monday. We will then start with the
10 84 and 84 bis procedure, which should bring us to the end of the day of
11 Monday, since one hour and 30 minutes plus one hour and 30 minutes equals
12 three hours, so we will end the hearing on that day. Then on Tuesday,
13 Mr. Praljak will be sworn in. Actually, he will not be sworn in again,
14 since he would have already been sworn in on Monday. And then he will,
15 on Tuesday, answer to questions put by his attorney, Mr. Kovacic. So now
16 everybody knows what's going on.
17 Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say
19 that we understood the French original yesterday very well, and I have
20 just been advised that the English translation has reached us. We may
21 have not been clear in the notification that we sent to you. There will
22 be no opening statement pursuant to Article 84, and it arises from our
23 notification that we plan for Mr. Praljak to talk for three hours, in
24 keeping with 84 bis or 84, depending on the Trial Chamber. But now that
25 we have read the text in the English language, it seems that you have
1 explicitly decided that, so it seems that if I have any additional
2 requests, you will tell me that it is res judicata.
3 I'm saying this for organisational reasons. We would be very
4 happy if Mr. Praljak could talk for three hours. However, if your
5 decision is what it is, I am obviously not going to dwell upon that.
6 General Praljak would then start on Monday, within the temporal
7 limitations that you have provided us with. The Defence would not have
8 any opening statements, because what Mr. Praljak is going to say is
9 defence, and then we would proceed with examination-in-chief.
10 This is our plan, and we hope that nothing unforeseen will happen
11 with that regard.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Since I only have a few more seconds: The last witness for the
14 Stojic Defence will be able to -- will come as soon as it's possible.
15 You will let me know ahead of time so that we know, while Mr. Praljak is
16 testifying, that we may insert this other witness. You've asked for one
17 hour for that witness, so you'll have one hour for you and one hour for
18 the Prosecutor, and then it will be done in such a way that there's no
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would kindly
21 thank you for giving me this opportunity. We will make sure that
22 Mr. Praljak's testimony is not interrupted. We will make sure to
23 organise the arrival of this witness after his testimony and still in
24 consultation with the Defence of Mr. Praljak.
25 It is my duty to tell you that I have not been in a position to
1 receive medical documentation for the witness whose name I don't want to
2 mention. As soon as I have any information and medical documentation, I
3 will inform both the Trial Chamber and my learned friend, the Prosecutor.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KOVACIC: If I may take just one second. It is still on your
7 decision which we just discussed.
8 We earlier were told that we would start on 4th May, which is
9 Monday. A decision, and probably it is the error, still is mentioning 6
10 May. But that was not your intention, to change the days? We are
11 starting on the 4th?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no, Monday is the 4th of
13 May, it's not the 6th of May.
14 MR. KOVACIC: Okay.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, we're starting on Monday.
16 Very well. Just a few seconds, because I really don't want the
17 Popovic Trial Chamber to be mad at me. So you have a few seconds.
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 No, just out of an abundance of caution, and history has shown
20 that sometimes it's better to err on the side of absolute clarity, I take
21 it from Ms. Nozica's comment that the witness that she's referring, based
22 on saying that he will not be called prior to the end of the Praljak
23 testimony, that means he would not be called any earlier than the second
24 half of July. That's how I understand that, then. Is that correct?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I thought too.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is for
2 practical reasons. It would be pointless to interrupt the examination of
3 Mr. Praljak.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 I wish you a good day, and the hearing will reconvene on Monday
6 at 1415.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th of May, 2009,
9 at 2.15 p.m.