Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8494

 1                           Thursday, 21 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Prlic et al.

13             Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

15             Today is Thursday, the 21st of May.  I would like to greet all

16     the people present in the courtroom, Mr. Praljak, Mr. Stojic,

17     Mr. Petkovic, and Mr. Pusic, as well as all Defence counsel.  I'd also

18     like to greet Mr. Stringer and his associates, and all the people

19     assisting us in this courtroom.

20             Before I give the floor to you, Ms. Pinter, for the remaining

21     part of your cross-examination, I would like to say this:  You notice

22     that yesterday, on several occasions, the Defence counsel stood up to say

23     that there were a few translation issues.  I would like Mr. Praljak and

24     Ms. Pinter to slow down because when you speak that fast, the

25     interpreters, who are doing wonders, may miss a few words.  This can

Page 8495

 1     happen.  This is something we've told you already.

 2             In this trial, we have, for one hearing, the greatest number of

 3     pages in this Tribunal, and when you speak fast - sometimes I speak too

 4     fast myself, I admit - when you speak too fast, you run the risk of not

 5     having everything recorded on the transcript.

 6             I would like to state again that I have great confidence in our

 7     interpreters, who do a wonderful job, who try to do as best they can, and

 8     to interpret everything that's being said and translate what they've

 9     heard.

10             I would also like, at the same time, to thank the court reporter,

11     who takes down everything that is being said.  That is also an

12     exceptionally difficult job.  So to avoid a few errors, make sure you all

13     speak slowly, in a disciplined manner, so that everything that we are

14     saying can be recorded.

15             Once again, I would like to tell you I have great faith in all

16     our interpreters translating, whether it be from B/C/S into French, B/C/S

17     into English, from English into French, or from French into English, and

18     so on and so forth, and from French into English, into B/C/S.  The

19     interpreters are doing a wonderful job.  I wanted this to be stated on

20     the record.

21             Ms. Pinter, please bear in mind what I've just said, and you may

22     proceed.

23             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Good morning to you and everybody else in the courtroom.  I will

25     really do my utmost to be as slow as possible.  It goes against the grain

Page 8496

 1     of my natural inclinations and character, but I will do my best to have

 2     everything recorded.

 3             And to start off, may we go into private session for a few

 4     minutes?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 8497











11 Pages 40497-40498 redacted. Private session.















Page 8499

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN PRALJAK [Resumed]

16                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

17             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I

18     would like to ask the usher to provide the general with the maps.

19                           Examination by Ms. Pinter:  [Continued]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  The maps are 3D03545 and 3544.

21        A.   Yesterday, I gave it some thought and want to do complement my

22     answer in response to the question asked -- that Judge Mindua asked me,

23     and that was the question of whether I was conscious of the fact that the

24     kind of threat that I made to the general manager of the Bratstvo company

25     could be interpreted by my men -- by the fighters in the way that they

Page 8500

 1     should model their commander and they issue the same kinds of threats.  I

 2     want to tell Their Honours that I was fully conscious of that possibility

 3     occurring, because a chunk of my life was spent dealing with the problem

 4     of methods and goals, methodology in the realm of science, but the

 5     consequences of methods and goals in political or, rather, state

 6     structures, ranging from Plato, Machiavelli, Savonarola, and the like,

 7     and an open society.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  This is a warning to interpreters'

 9     booths.  In between, we have a sound from the French booth, I think,

10     sounds that are not at all the usual interpretation sounds, so perhaps

11     there is a microphone that ought to be turned off or something like that.

12     I invite you to check this.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't recorded that I said

14     "Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Savonarola, Karl Popper, an open

15     society."

16             So what I'm saying is that I knew exactly what the problem was

17     and how important it was that the goal cannot justify the means used.

18             However, Your Honours, faced with the situation where Jajce had

19     fallen, and when you see how many refugees and wounded and dead there

20     were across Travnik, going further on via Travnik, and when you are

21     conscious of the fact that the offensive from Travnik, through

22     Central Bosnia, the offensive, the Serb offensive, I mean, towards

23     Sarajevo, when you see all that, then in the humanitarian aspect and

24     military aspect, you can see where all this can lead; humanitarian being

25     hundreds of thousands more refugees, and in the military sense, this

Page 8501

 1     could lead to cutting off Bosnia-Herzegovina, cutting it in two, in half,

 2     from Banja Luka via Travnik, the Lasva River valley, and Sarajevo, which

 3     would be a complete military catastrophe, given the circumstances, both

 4     for the BH Army, and for the Croatian Defence Council, and for both the

 5     nations.

 6             And I would like to demonstrate this now on the map.  I don't

 7     want to use up this map.  Perhaps there's a map on e-court and on our

 8     screens which I could use to indicate what I want.

 9        Q.   Yes, it does exist in e-court.

10        A.   Well, may I have that magic marker that we use?

11             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Would the usher provide the general

12     with the felt-tip pen, and give us the number of the map again.

13        A.   3D03544.  Now, this central part around Sarajevo, if that could

14     be enlarged.

15        Q.   Generally, we have 545 on the screen now.

16        A.   No, this is Yugoslavia.  We need BH.  It's 3D03544, that's the

17     right number.

18        Q.   You've prepared another map; is that right?

19        A.   That's Yugoslavia, that's something else, but, yes, I do have

20     one.  Let's just see this one first.

21             Here it is.  Could you zoom in to the Sarajevo area?  Thank you.

22     I seem to have gone blind.  Just let me take a moment.

23             Here we have Travnik [marks].  This is the Lasva River valley

24     going towards Sarajevo [marks].  And this is Jajce over here [marks].

25             After the fall of Jajce, this was the route taken by the refugees

Page 8502

 1     who were pulling out.  There were tens of thousands of them.  And there

 2     was no further relevant defence set up in front of Travnik at the point

 3     of my arrival, and there was the realistic danger of this area being cut

 4     off, Bosnia-Herzegovina being cut off along this axis [marks].

 5             Now, the kind of humanitarian and military catastrophe that would

 6     have ensued, which I realised were going to happen, is what prompted me

 7     to behave in the way I did.

 8             And now may we go into private session for a brief moment?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

10                           [Private session]

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Page 8503











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Page 8504

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, we're back in open

 6     session.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Ms. Pinter, please proceed.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  Your last answer, Mr. Praljak, is

10     somewhat enigmatic, because you were asked how many refugees there were

11     and you have answered "together with the troops."  Does it mean that

12     troops were actually fleeing, or what does it really mean?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The troops were also fleeing.

14     Everybody was fleeing, Your Honours.  It was a huge mass of people on the

15     move.  The army was in a state of disarray.  The troops of the BH Army,

16     together with the Muslim people, after that arrived in Gornji Vakuf, or

17     Uskoplje, as it were; and as we have demonstrated a lot of times, this is

18     where the so-called Jajacka Brigade was established.  And the HVO or the

19     Croats just zoomed through Bosnia-Herzegovina, and for a while they were

20     billeted in the territory of Croatia, and in a certain way I had to or I

21     managed to get some money for their salaries to be paid out.  And later

22     on, some elements of those units returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina, some

23     minor parts thereof, and they participated --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I have known the town

25     of Travnik, I've seen the mosque.  We know that Travnik is in a valley,

Page 8505

 1     with the mountains on either side.  When people were fleeing, how is it

 2     that the army did not deploy a few mortars or artillery pieces, if need

 3     be, to contain the Serbs?  Was this not possible?  As you said yesterday,

 4     there is an exit and an entrance to Travnik, there's only one road to get

 5     to it, so in military terms, was it quite impossible to avoid people

 6     fleeing in such a manner in this state of disarray?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, for a simple

 8     reason.  You will see later, because I've prepared another map, I

 9     conducted another operation.  Namely, Travnik is -- or, rather, Jajce

10     had -- could I please be given another copy of the same map?  Can it be

11     replicated so I can use it to show how things were at the time?  So I

12     would like to be given the same map once again.

13             Here it is, thank you.

14             Jajce was encircled, as you can see now on the map:  There is a

15     road that leads across Turbe, and this is where the last units of the HVO

16     and the BH Army were.  This is the road to Travnik.  All the positions

17     here, Vlasic, number 1, and number 2, Komar Mountain, which is here

18     [marks], it is not marked on this map; but you can see it on a larger

19     map, so this will be number 2, Komar, all that.  And Donji Vakuf was kept

20     by the Serbs, and they pounded from those mountains the narrow valley

21     that you, yourself, saw, and that's why we had to send the armoured bus.

22     Without Vlasic and without Komar, it would have been impossible to

23     believe that Jajce would have been able to persist for a long time.

24     There was such a cannon fire across the road, fire of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska, that everybody was clear that Jajce does not stand a

Page 8506

 1     chance, at least not for a long time.  And that such a military position

 2     is not defendable at all, and that's why it was impossible to stop the

 3     troops and the people when they started going.  They were under constant

 4     fire, under constant pounding by the Army of Republika Srpska from

 5     Mounts Vlasic and Komar.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please,

 7     and place your initials, and we'll -- put your initials, please, and

 8     we'll have a new number.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put the date as well, please.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.

13             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] The 5th, not the 6th.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the second marked version of

15     document 3D03544 shall be given Exhibit IC1013.

16             Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, it's not a 6, it's

18     a 5 that you're supposed to put.  This is May.  We're in May, not June.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I put "May."  [Marks]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, it's a "5."  Thank

21     you.

22             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   General, just for further clarification, the refugees from Jajce,

24     and the numbers that you stated, were they on their way to Sarajevo?

25        A.   No, Ms. Nika.  You couldn't get in to Sarajevo.  The Muslim

Page 8507

 1     refugees, by and large, remained in Travnik, Novi Travnik, Gornji Vakuf,

 2     all in Central Bosnia.  And as for the Croats, most of them -- or,

 3     rather, some of them stayed, and most of them went to Herzegovina or even

 4     more of them to Croatia.

 5        Q.   What about the troops?

 6        A.   That applies to the troops as well, as I said.

 7        Q.   General, thank you.  You said that you have another map that you

 8     wanted to discuss?

 9        A.   I would like to be given the same map once again, but can we zoom

10     in on the part around Mostar?

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You are again overlapping, Mr. Praljak beginning

12     to speak long before the question of Ms. Pinter has been translated, and

13     this leads to chaos, so I recall the President's words this morning.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His Honour Judge Antonetti asked me

15     yesterday about the refugees from East Herzegovina.

16             Your Honour Judge Antonetti, at the beginning of 1992, as the

17     Serb operations started, the entire area here -- the map has disappeared.

18     Can you please zoom in on this part?  Thank you.  Yes.  Borici,

19     Glavaticevo, Nevesinje [marks], and if you can go up a little to depict

20     Trebinje on the map.  I can't see Trebinje.  Kalinovik, is here [marks].

21     Scroll up a little, please.

22             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can the map be scrolled up a little?

24        A.   It can't.  And here there is Trebinje [marks] at the bottom of

25     the map.

Page 8508

 1             So at the beginning, before Bosnia and Herzegovina was

 2     recognised, from all of these parts, including Trebinje and

 3     East Herzegovina [marks], Muslims had been expelled because this area is

 4     where Serbs and Muslims resided together [marks], and they all fled

 5     towards Mostar and Capljina.  That was the first wave of exodus.  And we

 6     have already spoken at great length about the number of people who

 7     arrived in Mostar.

 8             The second wave of this exodus started when the Serbs started

 9     attacking.  Maybe I could be given another map.  This would then be Roman

10     I, and then I could begin telling you what happened next.

11             I'm going to say that this situation [marks] was before the 10th

12     of April, 1992.  How do you say that in English, "Tu"?

13        Q.   "Tu."

14        A.   Can we given an IC number for this map?

15        Q.   General, could you please put your initials on the map?

16        A.   [Marks]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

18     number?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The third marked version of

20     document 3D35544, shall be given Exhibit IC1014.  Thank you, Your

21     Honours.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And now can I please be given the

23     same map, and can you zoom in on the same part?

24             And now we are talking about --

25             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

Page 8509

 1        Q.   Which part do you need, General?

 2        A.   This part here, yes.  Thank you.

 3             The military situation, as it was on the 15th of May, 1992

 4     [marks].  The Serbs expelled all the remaining Croats and all Muslims

 5     from East Mostar [marks], across the river to the western part of Mostar.

 6             Could you please scroll up just a little, if you can.

 7        Q.   No, it cannot be done.  We can put the whole map on the screen.

 8        A.   Can you do that, the whole map, then?

 9             Very well.  From the eastern part of Mostar to the western part

10     of Mostar, that was [marks], and what remained here in Bijelo Polje,

11     north of Mostar [marks], and everything that remained behind the line

12     from Stolac towards this area [marks].  And when Stolac was taken,

13     everybody was expelled to the left bank of the Neretva, and the left bank

14     of the Neretva River was taken, and this was the line [marks], and this

15     is the date, 15/05/1992 [marks].

16             And then on the 9th of June, when Stolac was liberated, as well

17     as Mostar, Bijelo Polje, all the refugees -- when I say "all," I mean all

18     those who wanted, because some of them remained in Croatia, people mostly

19     left their women and children behind -- all refugees, both Croats and

20     Muslims, returned.

21             Is there another colour?  Maybe it would be good if I was

22     provided another colour.  Otherwise, the things will not be that clear.

23             The HVO [marks] took or, rather, liberated Mostar and all this

24     here, and this was the 06 month [marks], the end of June, end, 1992 of

25     the and then all refugees returned.  And as I've already said it, the

Page 8510

 1     units returned as well, first the units, and then people, Croats and

 2     Muslims, and the units of the BiH Army, who had already started being

 3     established when we trained them in Medjugorje.  And I'm saying all those

 4     who wanted to do so.  Although there was a general mobilisation in place,

 5     this did not mean much.  There was no control, there were no addresses,

 6     the whereabouts of the people were not known, so who wanted to volunteer

 7     did.

 8             And all the members of the Bosniak people who wanted to be

 9     trained and armed were trained and armed, and they returned in the

10     direction of Stolac, as you could see in the documents.  And maybe two or

11     three months later, those units were the nucleus of the Bregava Brigade

12     of the BiH Army.

13             This is my answer, and I hope you're satisfied with it,

14     Your Honour Judge Antonetti.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, the date and your

16     initials, please, and then I will have two questions to put to you.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The first question:  If I

19     understood you correctly, the Serbs told the Muslims to leave Mostar

20     East, and they went to West Mostar.  This is what you said; right?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 15th of May, 1992.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On May 15, 1992.  As a

23     consequence, the Muslims, who were living in East Mostar and up in

24     West Mostar, and are going to be housed in flats, I guess, they're just

25     going to go settle into flats.

Page 8511

 1             Second question:  In June, you told us that the HVO recaptured

 2     some positions, and thanks to this the soldiers, as well as the

 3     civilians, were able to come back.  And here something is important.

 4     When civilians came back, as far as you know, was it 100 percent Muslim

 5     civilians who came back, or in the end did some of them actually go to

 6     Croatia and say, Well, Croatia isn't that bad and we'll stay there until

 7     things cool down?  So according to you, what percentage of Muslims

 8     actually came back?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I know for sure is that

10     a large number remained in Croatia and fought along those lines.  Well,

11     let somebody else fight.  We are refugees.  It's not so bad here at the

12     seaside.  There is enough food, nobody went hungry.  A large number.

13     Now, as for percentages, I couldn't really give you the percentage,

14     Your Honour, but I think that less than 50 people actually -- 50 percent

15     of the people actually went back to Stolac, but with a caveat; it's a

16     very, very rough estimate.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So 50 percent for

18     Stolac.  What about for Mostar, as far as you know?  What is the

19     percentage of Muslims that came back to East Mostar?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a document from

21     April that I will show later on.  In Mostar at that time, there were far

22     more refugees from the first wave than there were locals, and when I say

23     "locals," I mean both Croats and Muslims.  In particular, let's say those

24     who were better off, those who had summer houses or who had friends with

25     summer houses, they left Mostar.  And I don't think that there was more

Page 8512

 1     than 50 percent of the local population in Mostar at that time, and

 2     I think that it was actually less than that, the population that had

 3     lived in Mostar before the war broke out.  Of course, and this is

 4     something that we've already discussed, at the time when Mostar was

 5     shelled and bombarded, well, women and children were evacuated and pulled

 6     out, and whoever had the possibility to do that did so, and there were

 7     very few women and children left.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             Mr. Registrar, could we please have a number for the fourth map

10     that was marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The fourth marked version of

12     document 3D3544 shall be given Exhibit IC1015.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Pinter.

14             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15        Q.   General, I see that you are taking out a map.  What would you

16     like to show?

17        A.   Well, if somebody could please just hold up the other part of the

18     map so that I can show you something.

19        Q.   What is this map?

20        A.   This, Your Honours, is a map that shows clearly the attack.  It

21     shows clearly this position of the forces of the Yugoslav People's Army

22     on the 1st of October, 1991.  It was made in Croatia by

23     Brigadier Milan Perkovic, the attack of the Serbs on -- and you can see

24     here this is the border of the Republic of Croatia, and here -- here it's

25     one kilometre away from the border, all the way up to the border with

Page 8513

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This is the border of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina [indicates], and Bosnia and Herzegovina has the sea exit and

 3     that is why it is a Mediterranean country.  And they took some parts of

 4     the coast, and they cut this route off.

 5             Now, as regards this problem here, here it is Croatia

 6     again [indicates], this is where the problems were, who would actually

 7     defend those positions, and what was the task of the HVO, and what the

 8     Croatian Army was supposed to do, and this is where all those problems

 9     stemmed from, the United Nations, whatchamacallit, resolutions.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  The record gives the date as the 1st of October,

11     1991.  Is that correct or is it 1992?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that war began in

13     1991.  In 1991 -- by 1991, it had already been going on for four or five

14     months.

15             So could I please be given a number for this map?  I am handing

16     it in.  It's the only copy that I have, but we don't really have proper

17     conditions to draw maps.

18             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Could it be, please, given an IC

19     number for the map?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have an

21     IC number for this last map?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The map shall be given

23     Exhibit IC1016.  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, I have two

25     technical questions.  I believe they are important, and I need to put

Page 8514

 1     them to you right now.

 2             Normally, a general that went to military academy and school, is

 3     able on this kind of map to place the combating units of its own side on

 4     the one hand, on the belligerent of the other hand, as well as placing

 5     the civilians and the refugees on such a map, because this is a scale

 6     that was taught at -- in the military academy.

 7             Now, you did not go to the military academy, you didn't go to

 8     officers school.  You ended up being a general overnight, if I could say

 9     so.  So where did you learn these skills, the skills that make it

10     possible for you to position, on a map, the different military positions

11     as well as the refugees, the position of the refugees?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I've already -- but

13     let me repeat, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.  All -- for the most part,

14     all of the humanists, as they like to call themselves so grandly, they

15     flee -- they evade the problem of war.  Sociologists flee away from the

16     issue of war because it is very difficult to research it, in sociological

17     terms, and this is something that's really terrible; and, because it's so

18     terrible, we can simply eliminate it and just pretend that we are

19     ostriches.

20             For years before the war, although, of course I didn't, I was

21     interested in the problems as follows:  How do wars break out, the course

22     of some military operations?  And I read dozens of books about Napoleon

23     and his battles.  Well, more or less a lot of it, almost all of it, I can

24     say, and why he won some battles, how the awareness of the French and the

25     French society made it possible for an army that was not so well

Page 8515

 1     organised to defeat the Prussians, the English and the Austrians in

 2     dozens of battles, and then I wanted to know why the luck of war turned

 3     at one point, what lies in the essence of the problem, how many soldiers

 4     he lost in the area, because you have to leave soldiers behind to hold

 5     the positions.  How many soldiers he had when he reached Moscow, and then

 6     of course the famous battle with Kutusov, and then the question why

 7     Kutusov set Moscow on fire and what it meant for Napoleon.  I read about

 8     the groups that occur -- let me just wrap up.  And the First World War,

 9     the Second World War, and Iwo Jima, Okinawa.  That's one thing.

10             And I also was a boy scout, and we had those cross-country races.

11     We had to run across an area with a map and a compass, using azimuths,

12     and I was really good at that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You answered my

14     question, my first question.

15             Now I have a second question.  Earlier, when we were talking

16     about refugees, you were talking about Travnik, because refugees actually

17     went through Travnik.  While I was listening to you, I wondered about the

18     military command, because in such a situation when there is a disband,

19     when people are fleeing, do you think that the military command should

20     first take into account the situation of the military, or should it first

21     look after the civilians, or should it look after both?  Is there some

22     kind of priority that is organised in trying to find out who needs to be

23     taken care of first?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in well-organised

25     states, let's put it that way, in well-organised states that wage wars,

Page 8516

 1     there are departments that deal with civilians in every way, and the

 2     soldiers or the military men deal with the troops.

 3             But here we have the civilians fleeing, and soldiers, brothers,

 4     sisters, fathers, sons.  They're all related, and you cannot simply

 5     divide this problem.  If the troops start fleeing, all the civilians who

 6     are of the same ethnic community or are related to the soldiers start

 7     fleeing with the troops.  These are the elements of the civil war, such

 8     as we saw in Spain or in the USA.  This is not the kind of war that you

 9     had in World War II, where an army enters an area and the population

10     simply has nothing to do with it.  They might get some additional taxes

11     to pay.  Or in World War II, when Belgium, or the Netherlands, or France

12     were occupied by the Nazi troops, the civilians were left there, the

13     armies fought.  One army lost, and it had great repercussions on the

14     civilians, but not of the kind that we saw in the war in Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina.

16             The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina had some elements of the civil

17     war, so that means that the people did not stay behind after the troops

18     withdrew, and vice versa.  If the people fled, then the troops did not

19     have any reason to stay in the area and defend it, and then the troops

20     fled too.

21             So just to wrap this up, the Serbs utilised this as a tactic.

22     Let me give you an example.  Sunja, that's where I was.  They would shell

23     an area so fiercely that the civilians would flee, and then the army

24     would leave, too, because they didn't have anyone to defend.  So both had

25     to be stopped from doing that.  The army couldn't -- the army had to

Page 8517

 1     actually live with the soldiers, because they were their families, and

 2     then the troops had the motive to actually fight because they were

 3     defending their own kin; mothers, fathers, sisters and so on.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   General, yesterday we spoke about Jajce, we started discussing

 7     Jajce, the document from Mr. Prkacin.  But before we go back to that

 8     document, I would like us to look at document P00717.  It was added to

 9     the file because it was initially envisaged for another annex.

10             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you received it

11     separately this morning.  This is what it looks like [indicates].  It

12     says here "additional document," and we have the number.  And this

13     follows up on what we were talking about yesterday, about

14     Mr. Jasmin Jaganjac and his appointment, so to speak, as the adviser to

15     Mr. Izetbegovic, and his activities and work in joint attempts to calm

16     the situation down from that moment on.

17        Q.   What can you tell us about this document, General?

18        A.   Well, as I've already said, I was never formally appointed to

19     perform this role that I actually performed, but the people who were

20     formally appointed by the HVO and the BH Army in a way recognised me as a

21     person who is there to coordinate, to bring people together, improve

22     relations.  So it was agreed with Mr. Boban and Mr. Stojic that a joint

23     command would be set up, and Mr. Jasmin Jaganjac was there representing

24     the army, and that is why the documents are there, and you will see a

25     number of them later, signed by Mr. Jaganjac and myself, and they gave me

Page 8518

 1     some kind of legitimacy.  I was recognised, in a way.  So in a military

 2     operation where Jaganjac, Pasalic, Merdan, are, formally speaking, in

 3     legal terms, recognised that I did play this role that I actually played.

 4        Q.   From this document, it would follow, General, that that was only

 5     for the defence of Jajce, at least as it says here.

 6        A.   Yes, they did limit that because they weren't ready -- well, my

 7     resolve and the force I had, not to be too modest, to manage a situation

 8     of that kind, a situation of crisis and chaos.  All those were soldiers

 9     who found it difficult to find their way, faced with a situation of that

10     kind, because they always had dealings with the army and with orders and

11     everything, whereas here nobody listened to everybody; and you had to do

12     everything through the force of argument, through using force and talking

13     to the people, and to be forceful.  You had to impose yourself, even on

14     pain of doing certain things which you would never do in civilian life

15     because it's a matter of hours.  So that's how I sort of built up some

16     sort of authority.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document is dated November

18     1992.  It clearly states that from 1992 onwards, Halilovic and

19     Izetbegovic recognised the joint command of both armies, on reading this

20     document again, and another document which is a statement made by the

21     ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the UN in March 1993, where he states

22     that the armies of Bosnia and Herzegovina are the HVO and the ABiH.

23             This document, therefore, signed by Halilovic, admits that there

24     is an armed component that includes two branches.  The addressees of this

25     document, I see it's sent to Dzemo and Djed.  Dzemo, couldn't that be

Page 8519

 1     Mr. Merdan, according to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dzemo Merdan.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Djed, who is this person?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.  I can

 5     ask who it was who had that nickname, but at this point in time I really

 6     don't know who they called Djed.

 7             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   General, yesterday we started discussing something, but we didn't

 9     round it off.  Actually, we were discussing document 3D00484, which was a

10     report by Mr. Prkacin.

11        A.   What number did you say?

12        Q.   3D00484.  It should be in the binder titled "Jajce."  If you

13     haven't got it, I'll provide you with a copy.

14        A.   What number again?

15        Q.   3D00484.  You had it yesterday.

16        A.   Yes, I'll find it.

17        Q.   There's a separate Jajce file.  Not in the binder, actually.  I

18     meant the file.  This is what the file looks like that you were given

19     yesterday [indicates].

20        A.   I don't know where it is, maybe I forgot to bring it, but I know

21     the document by heart.

22        Q.   Well, you can look at it on the screen.

23        A.   Yes.  I am very well acquainted with the document.  I know how

24     this happened.

25             Your Honours, the document is too long and goes into great

Page 8520

 1     detail; how they set out, how they were stopped, how they were stopped a

 2     second time, how rifles were cocked, who Prkacin called to Sarajevo to

 3     clarify this unbelievable situation, that is, that he was being stopped

 4     when he was going to help the defence of Central Bosnia.  He tried to

 5     understand who was behind that, especially as the unit that he was

 6     leading numbered more than 70 percent Muslims.

 7             So I can't go through all these details now.  It would take too

 8     much time.  The document is an exhaustive one, it's a clear one, and it

 9     speaks about what I'm saying here.

10             There was a double game afoot.  What can be said with certainty

11     is that under pressure and given the war situation, and the fact that he

12     knew that all the weapons were coming from Croatia, Sefer Halilovic had

13     to, from time to time, agree to sign some papers saying that the BH Army

14     and the HVO were one army, a single army.  He had to do that.  He had to

15     agree from time to time to have General Petkovic as an equal partner, on

16     a footing of equality.  But I said yesterday -- I showed yesterday, and I

17     will show this again and again, in his mind we were all Ustashas.  He

18     considered us all Ustashas, and he undermined everything,

19     President Izetbegovic, the president of the Presidency, and there were

20     always things that you couldn't understand.

21             And look at this here.  When there were no conflicts, they did

22     not allow a unit to pass through check-points and go to Central Bosnia.

23     And later on, theses were banded about by which they said that in Central

24     Bosnia there were five or six brigades of the Croatian Army.  These were

25     rumours going 'round for months, that in Central Bosnia, which didn't

Page 8521

 1     allow a unit of this kind to enter, that you had five or six brigades of

 2     the Croatian Army fighting there.

 3        Q.   General, who is Mr. Glasnovic mentioned in this document?

 4        A.   Mr. Glasnovic was the commander of the HVO brigade from

 5     Tomislavgrad.

 6        Q.   And what about Mr. Dautovic, who is he?

 7        A.   Mr. Dautovic, Senad Dautovic, is his name, was the commander of

 8     the BH Army in Bugojno, and he was a man -- until the BH Army attacked in

 9     Bugojno, he was a reasonable man.  He was a good guy.  I had a series of

10     meetings with him, but never mind that now.

11        Q.   And who is Mr. Lendo?  Yes, I'm overlapping.  It's my fault.

12        A.   Refik Lendo was the commander of the BH Army, as far as I know

13     and when I found him there, in Novi Travnik, but then he held some other

14     posts, and he was one of the people who quite simply made me look a fool

15     and played a game behind my back.

16        Q.   Does that refer to Dautovic?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Because the record seems to say that.  Now would you look at

19     another document, which is 3D061669 [as interpreted].  Your signature is

20     there, and we're dealing with 1992.  3D01669 is the document number.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of October.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  We've had now a rather long document and the

24     witness has mentioned a lot of details, but we were not really told what

25     the document is about.  It is a report; am I right?  I have the

Page 8522

 1     impression now that the main purpose of talking about this was to

 2     denigrate Mr. Prkacin, saying that he was an evil person, but I'm not

 3     sure whether I understood that correctly at all.

 4             Many names pop up.  No one says who they are.  I'm afraid that

 5     this, in my perception, was so disorderly that I cannot use it.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nika, let me answer.

 7             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] We discussed the document yesterday

 8     and made an introduction to it during the proceedings yesterday.  A

 9     mention was made of Mr. Prkacin, who set out from Herzegovina, or more

10     exactly from Capljina, with a group of soldiers towards Jajce, with the

11     aim of liberating or, rather, helping with the liberation of Jajce.

12             And now the general would like to add something.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Trechsel, Your Honour,

14     yesterday, when I explained this document, I explained it in detail and

15     said who Mr. Prkacin was.  I didn't blacken him; quite the contrary.  In

16     this document and what I said about Prkacin, only good things were said

17     about Prkacin.

18            So 400 men of HOS, H-O-S, from Croatia arrived in the territory of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, after they realised that Jajce was going to fall and

20     that this jeopardised Central Bosnia.  These people arrived in Capljina,

21     where Bruno Stojic gave them clothing, weapons, and everything else that

22     was required so they could go with Mr. Prkacin to help Jajce out, and

23     Central Bosnia too.  After they set out, the event that Mr. Prkacin is

24     describing took place.

25             In that group, more than 70 percent were Muslims, and from this

Page 8523

 1     it is evident that in certain parts of the Muslim units, they did not

 2     have the wish for a common struggle, fighting together, and they

 3     considered that portion of Central Bosnia to be theirs already, because

 4     otherwise you can't explain what it says in the document here.  They did

 5     not pass through.  They were sent back, just as they had put up obstacles

 6     to the passage of a smaller unit of the military police of the BH Army

 7     from Mostar.  That unit also was sent back, just as an HVO police unit

 8     returned, and some other volunteer groups who were ready to fight for

 9     Jajce and Central Bosnia.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  So an essential feature demonstrated

11     by this document is that there were tensions between Croats and Muslims

12     also at that point when they were supposed together to fight the Serbs?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't agree with that,

14     Judge Trechsel.  There was no tension between the Croats and Muslims.

15     What there was this:  It was incomprehensible that regular units were

16     being stopped.  They're not tensions.  It's just obstacles by the BH Army

17     to a unit going to help in the defence of Jajce.  It is sabotage of a

18     joint struggle, that's what it is, in the worst possible way and ugly

19     way.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I don't see much difference there, but I

21     take your point and I thank you for the explanation.  It was really

22     helpful.  Thank you.

23             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, now 3D01669 is the document we have before us, and I'd

25     like to hear your comments on that.

Page 8524

 1        A.   That's precisely what I said.  The 1st Mostar Brigade, Mr. Stojic

 2     and I say, Let them pass through.  And I say that Commander

 3     Suad Muharemovic, the commander of the unit, but they were stopped, too.

 4     What?  What are you saying?  They were stopped and sent back.  So those

 5     parts in the BH Army who already had it in their heads and minds, that's

 6     what I claim, a future conflict with the HVO, did not allow them to

 7     advance up there, because these were people at that time who saw the

 8     struggle of the Croats and Muslims as a joint struggle.

 9        Q.   As far as I'm concerned and the documents are concerned, that

10     completes the Jajce subject.  Is there something you'd like to add?

11        A.   No.  I just have a map that I have prepared here, and it is an

12     answer to a question from Judge Antonetti about why this couldn't be

13     stopped.  So could the usher assist me here, please.

14             At the time -- at the time, Your Honours, it was quite clear that

15     Turbe - here it is, Turbe - and the entrance to Travnik, that neither

16     Travnik, nor Novi Travnik -- well, that it would be in a bad position if

17     Komar, which was fully controlled by the Serbs along this line here

18     [indicates], right up to the area above Donji Vakuf, towards Bugojno, was

19     not liberated.  Mr. Lendo and Mr. Arif Pasalic devised a plan, based on

20     joint consultation, as to how this was to be done.  They -- the BH Army

21     units were supposed to attack from this side [indicates].

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Counsel.

23             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   What page is that, for the record, so that we have the page

25     you're showing on the record?

Page 8525

 1        A.   Nika, I'll explain that.

 2        Q.   Well, go on.  Say what this is about, then.

 3        A.   The BH Army, from about the Donji Vakuf area, was supposed to

 4     launch this attack -- the BH Army was supposed to launch this attack from

 5     Bugojno, and Senad Dautovic was in command there; whereas here the

 6     BH Army units were supposed to attack those units which were commanded by

 7     Refik Lendo.  And the HVO, according to this proposal, was supposed to

 8     hold, together with the BH Army units, these positions above Turbe

 9     here [indicates].  That's why I used the blue and the green.

10             Now, the HVO from Travnik was supposed to, once the attack

11     started, to cut off this area.  It had to be in this position

12     already [indicates] in order to prevent or to enter into battle with the

13     units -- or against the units who would be coming in to reinforce their

14     front-line positions, because the front-line of the Army of Republika

15     Srpska was relatively weak.

16             When the plan was elaborated, they brought it to me for signing.

17     I looked through it, made certain corrections, and signed it.  But then I

18     said -- or, rather, before that, Your Honours, the commanders of the HVO,

19     Mr. Juric, they convinced me that Lendo was setting a trick -- setting a

20     trap and that nothing would come of it.  I said, I don't want to discuss

21     it.  This is what we're going to do.  We're going to do what we have

22     agreed to do.

23             However, contrary to their customs -- they thought I was going to

24     sign this and leave, but contrary to this, I said, All right, Lendo,

25     okay, but I want to lead the attack.  I have to be up at the positions

Page 8526

 1     there.  Of course, he had to agree to that.

 2             So that night - I can't remember the date now - anyway, we went

 3     through a very difficult -- across a very difficult route to take up our

 4     positions, and at 5.00 a.m., HVO groups who had already entered deep into

 5     a the territory behind the backs of the first lines -- the front-lines of

 6     the Army of Republika Srpska, they reported that they were ready, and the

 7     attack was to start.

 8             Not a single bullet was fired, not a single one.  Lendo turned me

 9     into a cretin, made me look like a cretin, and this area had the

10     nickname, "komsija," neighbours 1 and neighbours 2.  This was code

11     language, code signs, "komsija," neighbours.

12             I waited until 9.00, saw that nothing was going to happen.  I

13     then took a piece of paper and stopped the attack, and through

14     communications I issued orders that these units -- that HVO groups should

15     safely pull out.

16             And one more thing, Your Honours.  As we were advancing to the

17     positions where the attack was to begin, this man, Juric, went together

18     with me and the signalman.  Mr. Lendo led seven or eight men, of which

19     two of his bodyguards, with the Hecklers, short-barrelled Hecklers, were

20     always behind me with these barrels, always.  Even if I were to stop for

21     a while intentionally, they would stop too; behind me, that is.  It's a

22     terrible feeling, you know, and then you realise that the man has

23     something else that he wants to achieve and that he had a hidden agenda,

24     that the man was not in favour of fighting together.

25             Several days later, he disappeared from the area, and when I

Page 8527

 1     asked where he was, I can't claim this, but I was told that his family

 2     lives in Serbia and he was due to undergo an appendix operation in Serbia

 3     and that that's where he had gone.  I can't guarantee that that was the

 4     case, but that was the official position taken by the people from the

 5     HVO, the intelligence people and the commanders.

 6             So I'm going to sign this map now, put my signature to it.  I'll

 7     put "Praljak" here [marks], and it is my personal experience.  And today

 8     is the 21st/05/2009 [marks].

 9             Your Honours --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have a

11     number, please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The map shall be given

13     Exhibit IC1017.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992 is the year.  I suppose -- I

15     believe that it was in December or end of November [marks].  I really

16     can't say exactly.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, you have shown us the

18     map concerning this military operation, which in the end didn't take

19     place, and you told us that there were preparations for that.  My

20     question relates to the 9th of May, 1993, and relates to what happened at

21     Stupni Do.  It's an important question.

22             When a military operation -- this is a question of a general

23     nature, but what happens after that is the 9th of May, Stupni Do.  When

24     such a military operation is being prepared, is it standard for the

25     military commander to prepare beforehand -- to prepare the operation

Page 8528

 1     beforehand on the basis of maps of positions held by some of the people?

 2     Does this kind of preparation occur before a military operation?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, all the necessary

 4     elements are prepared; a map, all the intelligence about the enemy

 5     positions, infantry, bunkers, where their artillery is, how strong they

 6     are.  You assess the psychological profile of the enemy as well.  You

 7     determine the beginning of the attack, the axis of the attack, which

 8     units will be participating, how many troops.  You work out the system of

 9     communications.  You prepare a code book, because you can -- and so on

10     and so forth.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll have the

12     opportunity to come back to this.  But while I'm about it, I would like

13     to put to you this question, which is a crucial question, in my view:  On

14     the 9th of May, if there had been an attack launched by the HVO or by the

15     ABiH - I say either/or - theoretically should documents of these elements

16     be provided, i.e., stemming from the HVO or from the ABiH that prepared

17     the attack?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's hard to conceive an attack of

19     that kind without the documents that you're referring to.

20             We have presented documents here showing that the BiH Army had

21     prepared an attack in Mostar against the HVO.  All the orders were shown,

22     as well as the axis of attack.  We drew up a map of Mostar and how this

23     was going to take place.  I don't know of a single HVO document at any

24     level to implement an attack against the BiH Army in Mostar on the 9th of

25     May, 1993.

Page 8529

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me finish off

 2     with this last question before the break.

 3             If the HVO organised the attack of the 9th of May, normally

 4     speaking, one should have been able to find documents relating to the

 5     units that were on the ground?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.

 7     Moreover, an operation of that kind, as it would have been an attack in a

 8     city, and we're talking about a very complex operation here, an operation

 9     of that kind could not be carried out without Mr. Petkovic's signature,

10     who was the chief of the HVO Staff.  At the time, as far as I know, he

11     was not even in Mostar.  He was participating in some negotiations

12     somewhere.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             It's time now -- would you like to ask a question?

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I have the feeling that we are at the end of

16     this Jajce subject, and I would like to ask a question.

17             What you tell us, Mr. Praljak, is the story of a betrayal.  The

18     person who ought to have been on the BiH Army side to attack, together

19     with you, the Serb position failed.  He abandoned his job, he went away.

20     This is a very serious matter in a war situation, and normally someone

21     like that would be court-martialed, maybe shot for not obeying orders,

22     something like that.  I would like to know what consequences, if any,

23     were taken against this Mr. Lendo as a consequence of the event you have

24     described.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour Judge Trechsel.

Page 8530

 1     Nothing happened.  I just learned, or at least that's what I was told,

 2     when he wasn't there, that he had gone to Serbia to undergo an operation

 3     for his appendix.

 4             Second of all, I don't even know if those units were in position.

 5     From 5.00 in the morning, up until 9.00, despite my repeated questions

 6     through the lines of communications, what was going on, Why are you not

 7     moving?  They did not fire a single bullet.  The only thing that happened

 8     was his two bodyguards holding onto their Hecklers and standing next to

 9     me.

10             I was there.  I was armed, I had a pistol.  There was the HVO

11     commander from Travnik, Juric, and the signalsman who was maintaining

12     communication with the HVO about the positions.  And I don't know if

13     Lendo's units were there at all, I don't know that.  I don't know if

14     anybody --

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Did you not, as a consequence, take up this

16     question with the Muslims?  I mean, this was -- you were installing a

17     joint command.  You say you wanted this, and of course it must work.

18     Now, here it failed completely, very seriously.  I would imagine that

19     this must be the subject of very serious remonstrations to the Muslim

20     side.  Did nothing of that happen?  Did you not take it up?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour Judge Trechsel.  I

22     did it in no uncertain terms, in a very rough manner.  I would not like

23     to repeat the words that I used then at the meeting in Plave Vode, when I

24     told them, What's going on, who are you fucking up with, how far are you

25     going to go on like this, where are the three battalions that you're

Page 8531

 1     claiming that you have in reserve, and my question, Are you preparing

 2     these three battalions, Lendo, for an attack against the HVO?

 3             And, yes, Your Honour Judge Trechsel, these were my questions.

 4     They sounded even worse, they were even more rough.  But, you know, this

 5     all blew over.  They kept silent for a while, and then it all amounted to

 6     nothing.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you mention this to

 8     Mr. Halilovic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Halilovic, I never managed to reach

10     Halilovic.  That one never arrived, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.  At that

11     moment, Lendo was a person number 1, at least of those I saw and who was

12     accessible to me.  I never reached the commander of the 3rd Corps in

13     Zenica, Hadzihasanovic, let alone -- you know, we're talking about some

14     games here.  Games are --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But as my colleague said,

16     this Lendo left the battle-field; therefore, he is committing a serious

17     offence, in the eyes of the army.  He could have been penalised for this.

18     Who can penalise him, other than the commander of the 3rd Corps, or a

19     higher authority?  Apart from shouting in a microphone on the spot or

20     using your Motorola, I don't know what you were doing, and if you did

21     nothing, how did you expect things to happen?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, at that time I was

23     not shouting into a megaphone.  It was not a Motorola.  We were together.

24     What I'm talking about is the meeting at the Command of the BiH Army in

25     Travnik, in a house which was known as Plave Vode.  Only they -- after

Page 8532

 1     that, a group of Muslims arrived.  They had lost their positions in the

 2     area that I showed to you a minute ago, because the Serbs had been

 3     pounding them with artillery fire, the two hills.  And we will have a

 4     witness who knows about these two hills and their names.  One was

 5     Crni Vrh -- Crni something, this or the other.

 6             And then they asked me to provide them with the HVO artillery

 7     support and help them reinstate the positions, because from the positions

 8     that the Serbs have taken, they were able, and they did so, to kill

 9     people in the village.  And I promised, and I delivered on that promise.

10     We provided them with very strong artillery support, and they managed to

11     reinstate their lost positions.

12             However, there was also an extended meeting as well, and I

13     attended a lot of meetings of that kind.  At that meeting, I asked those

14     other people, I asked them, Okay, where is Lendo now, where are his three

15     battalions in reserve that he claims that they exist, and they are

16     nowhere to be seen in positions ?  Who is he safe-guarding the three

17     battalions for?  Is he safe-guarding them for an attack against the

18     Croats?

19             And I repeat, like the people from the couple of villages, there

20     were people in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who wanted to fight

21     along with us and who were brilliant people in that respect.  The person

22     that I mentioned previously, Mr. Leko from Turbe, fought very hard, very

23     courageously in the area, and suffered great losses and so on and so

24     forth.  But not Lendo, not him, and Lendo represented the head.  The

25     others were more normal people, harbouring much different feelings.

Page 8533

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a 20-minute break

 2     now.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session,

 6     but we have a question from a Judge.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Praljak, we have been speaking -- okay?

 8     Ready, go.  We have been speaking about this attack, aborted attack, as

 9     one might say, and you have also explained how any attack must be well

10     prepared, and there is an attack order, and it's certainly an order in

11     writing at a certain level.  Now, where is the order for this attack?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it, Your Honour.  I

13     co-signed it, or, rather, I signed it, but it remained in the possession

14     of either Mr. Pasalic or Mr. Lendo.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But was there more than one copy?  As there were

16     several addressees normally, you must have a number of copies, one for

17     the artillery, for the fire support, for the different units that are --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Artillery was not involved in this

19     attack, that's for sure, because it was a broad area and there was no

20     need to target anything with artillery, so there was no artillery.  A

21     part of the order was probably received by Travnik, but I didn't take a

22     copy with me, because it never occurred to me why would one shlep around

23     all the copies.  But there will be a witness, Mr. Juric, who will be

24     called to testify, and he took part in it; and we can ask this question

25     to him, whether it was preserved somewhere.  But the archives were not

Page 8534

 1     kept meticulously, and it was very difficult for us to gather even the

 2     documents that we do have.  But there was the order and there was the

 3     map.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Pinter.

 6             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Just a

 7     moment.

 8        Q.   General, yesterday, as the session drew to a close, we indicated

 9     that we would be playing a film.  The number is 3D03114.  It's a segment

10     that pertains to Travnik.  But before we play the clip, could you please

11     explain to us what this is all about and to tell the Court?

12        A.   The film that you're about to see was made in Zagreb, so in

13     preparation for this trial I wanted to bring close to you what the

14     situation looks like in the field.  And then I took an actual event in

15     Travnik, after the fall of Jajce, and I shot it in Jadran Film Studios in

16     Zagreb.  Of course, I hired a cameraman and some guys, and I told them

17     what the event was like, and I tried to depict it faithfully in order to

18     give an idea to the Judges, to the Prosecutors, everyone in the

19     courtroom, what fleeing from the lines looked like.  But we will have a

20     witness here in court who will speak about that.

21             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Just for Your Honours, it's the

22     transcript number 2.  It's at page 3D41-1091.  That's the text of the

23     simulation.  And now I would like us to play the film.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the lads who had fled

Page 8535

 1     from the lines, and I stopped them.

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You escaped, didn't you?  Who will

 3     defend us?  Who are the officers here?  Step forward, officers.  I will

 4     send you to prison.  Go to prison.  You'll go to prison, go to prison.

 5     Stand over there.  You also would like to go to prison.  Who wants to go

 6     to prison?

 7             "I want to go to prison.

 8             "Prison, hey.  Yes.  Can you go?  Yes, this is mine.  The

 9     Croatian people paid for this.  Take the clothes off, take this off, and

10     then you will go to prison.  Leave the weapon, take it off.  Will you go

11     to prison naked.  Let's go, take the clothes off.  Take the clothes off

12     quickly.  You will go to prison in your underwear.  That's what's yours.

13     It's cold, isn't it?  It's cold.  Take the clothes off.

14             "We would like to go back.

15             "Shall we fight?  Are we going to fight?

16             "Yes, we will.

17             "Well, then, let's go.  Shall we fight here?  Yes.  Well, then,

18     let's go.  They'll kill your mothers, they'll kill your women, they'll

19     kill your children and your brothers.  Who will stop this?  Where is the

20     army?  We can smash them.  Let's go back.  Guys, for fuck's sake, what is

21     this?  We can do that.  What is this?  Man, get dresses.  Let's go up

22     there.  Let's go up there.  Let's go up there.  Let's go, guys.  Let's

23     go.  We can fuck them, we can do it.  Let's go.  Yes, guys, can we do it?

24     Yes, we can.  Yes, we can.  Take the rifles, take the rifles.  Put this

25     on.  We can do it.  We'll fix this later.  Did you see what they did in

Page 8536

 1     Jajce?  Will they kill their wounded?  Will they burn their houses?  Are

 2     we going to do it?  Where will you live?  Let's go, officers.  Take the

 3     troops.  Stand in line.  Let's go, guys.  Attention, follow me, follow

 4     me.  Let's go."

 5             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Would you please stop it.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, it's difficult

 7     for me to watch it from this standpoint, of course.  But that's what it

 8     looks like.  It looks even worse.

 9             First of all, of course, there's no prison.  This is all an

10     impromptu reenactment.  I was just showing some basement and not the

11     prison.

12             And this is a realistic picture.  Those guys got scared and they

13     fled from the lines, and this is realistically what it looks like.  So

14     there are threats, but they are fictitious, of course.  And all this

15     about taking clothes off, this is what -- I got this idea right there at

16     the spot, because you don't really know what to do.  And it was cold, and

17     that's why it occurred to me.  And then you have to raise their morale

18     and get them to move to the position, and that's how it went on,

19     endlessly.

20             Well, we will wrap up this topic soon.  And until Christmas 1992,

21     when I came to Mostar on Christmas Eve, by that time actually I held

22     dozens and dozens of meetings in area:  Kiseljak, Vitez, Busovaca,

23     Travnik, Novi Travnik, Bugojno, Uskoplje, Gornji Vakuf, Konjic.  So I

24     toured all the HVO and BH Army positions in that area at least twice, I

25     visited each of them at least twice.  I talked, I fought, argued.  Well,

Page 8537

 1     it's difficult to even retell all this.

 2             Well, you've seen some details.  We'll see some other details

 3     about the formation of a brigade in Zenica.  And I can say that this

 4     operation that I depicted here around Komar, the same or, rather, similar

 5     operation at the same time was being prepared with the HVO and the

 6     BH Army around Konjic.  I was preparing it against the positions of the

 7     Republika Srpska Army in the village of Bjela and around the village.

 8     This was an area from which they pounded Konjic mercilessly.  I

 9     personally did the reconnaissance of the positions with the chiefs of

10     staff of the HVO and the BH Army from Konjic, and we saw a document about

11     that.  I think there is another one.  I think I've seen it somewhere, but

12     I can't find it now.

13             And once all the arrangements were in place and we were supposed

14     to carry out that action the next day, the BH Army simply said they

15     didn't want to.  They refused to.

16             Now, where did this information or order come from, preventing

17     them from coming -- going into that action together with us?  But the day

18     before, when we agreed that the next day that we would go, they said that

19     they didn't want to, although at the beginning they were very keen on

20     pushing out the Republika Srpska Army from that area called Bjela,

21     because they were really pounding the area mercilessly from those

22     positions.

23             Furthermore, at the time, Your Honours, I spoke to hundreds of

24     people, and there was an unusual sign.  And now I will get up, with your

25     leave, and show it.  Normally, you shake hands like this [indicates], you

Page 8538

 1     extend your hand, and then at one point a certain number of officers of

 2     the BH Army started doing this [indicates] before shaking hands, and then

 3     went on to extend the hand.  It was very strange to me.  I thought it was

 4     some kind of a sign.  And then I was told that this shows that they, in

 5     fact, are letting people know that they obey the five pillars of Islam.

 6     They told me later that this developed in other areas, in Bihac.  Well, I

 7     don't know what the five pillars of Islam are, but I do know that this

 8     gesture with the hand got quite common, and this was also a sign of

 9     distinction between us.

10        Q.   Could you please describe this motion with the hand for the

11     record?

12        A.   Well, the hand moves back, and the fingers are stretched out,

13     signifying the five pillars of Islam.  It's not all the officers of the

14     BH Army that did this, but a certain number did, and this was unusual.

15             I know that on the 23rd December, 1993 in Travnik, the HVO

16     organised a reception to celebrate the Catholic Christmas, and I remember

17     that the reception was attended by Hadzihasanovic.  I even had a

18     photograph somewhere with him.  There were some other BH Army officers

19     there.

20             And on the 24th, it was the Christmas Eve, I think I was still in

21     Usora, and there was also a photograph there.  And then in the afternoon,

22     I got in my car, went to Mostar, met with Mr. Stojic, with Mr. Petkovic,

23     and that's when the two orders were drafted for the politicians to go to

24     the positions to be with the troops over Christmas and New Year, because

25     at that time there was -- there were already divisions among the troops.

Page 8539

 1     They were supposed to fight, and a good many of the politicians just got

 2     into their cars and go to the coast.  It's as if we were two different

 3     worlds.  And this caused a great deal of discontent, and that's why we

 4     agreed that everybody from the HVO and the HZ-HB structures should spend

 5     at least one night with the men, on their positions, to see what it looks

 6     like to spend a night in a bunker, and how long the night is, and what

 7     kind of a feeling it is.

 8             And, secondly, Mr. Coric, Mr. Stojic and I drafted this other

 9     order about how military police officers should behave at check-points,

10     because having passed through hundreds of those check-points, people

11     didn't know how to behave.  And then I wrote that they had to say, Good

12     day, sir.  Please, can I have your documents?  Thank you very much.  Have

13     a nice trip.  That's what I wrote.  And Mr. Valentin Coric and I, we

14     signed this order to give it some weight.  Of course, this was within the

15     purview of Mr. Coric, but simply in such matters, in organised structures

16     and organised armies, there shouldn't be anyone co-signing it, but we

17     wanted to increase the strength of such an instruction as to how military

18     policemen should behave at check-points.

19             And then after the New Year, I was on the line.  Immediately

20     after the New Year's Day, I left for Zagreb.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let's round off this story with P01622.  The document

22     is --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, I have a

24     question to put to you on this issue.  If I have this right, you shot the

25     video in Zagreb after the fact to show what had happened in the fall of

Page 8540

 1     1992, when you spoke to the soldiers who had fled.  And what you said was

 2     translated, and we have the English version.  Now, it so happens that

 3     from the B/C/S French booth we heard one thing that is not in the English

 4     version.  You said, "We will fuck their mothers."  Did you really say

 5     that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was neutral.  It means "fuck

 7     him."  It's a neutral form.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  "Motherfuckers," in fact, interpreters note.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You know, telling this to young

10     soldiers, who are, you know, 18 to 25, hearing their commander say this,

11     do you think it's normal, or is it just a routine expression that is used

12     in your country and that does not really have any sexual, you know,

13     meaning behind it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, I

15     don't think I said it that way.  I think I used a neutral turn of phrase.

16     But even if I had, if you look at any realistic film about the army in

17     any war, the expressions used are far worse with every army during a war,

18     in every war.  So I studied what Russians, as bears, what was said about

19     the Germans later on, and especially during World War II.  What I was

20     saying was far too mild, because, you know, war rhetoric is quite simply

21     quite different to civilian rhetoric or speech.  And if you like, I can

22     bring in all the things that Hemingway said about the Germans, for

23     instance, or that 95 percent of the Americans wanted to throw a bomb on

24     Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  War has different rules, and although I think I

25     used a neutral turn of phrase, and even if I had said something else, it

Page 8541

 1     would -- it meant nothing else but we will beat them, in military terms,

 2     we will militarily vanquish them.

 3             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   General, in daily speech, of course, unofficially, not when we're

 5     doing official business, do we tend to use swear words?

 6        A.   Yes, over and above every reasonable measure.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now turn to P01622, please.  The document is to be

 8     found in the binder titled "Central Bosnia," and it is the presidential

 9     minutes and transcript.

10             And for Their Honours and those who speak English, this is

11     page 18 of the 60 pages of the English translation.

12             I can give our ERN number, which is 0132-2353.

13             What can you tell us about this document?  What do you know about

14     the document, the circumstances under which it was compiled and so on?

15        A.   Let me just follow on from what I was saying.  This word

16     "mater," "mother," et cetera, is what we use for football games.  It's --

17     there's no sexual connotation.  It just means, We're better, we're going

18     to beat you.  So as you well know, Defence counsel, it has no other

19     connotations.

20             Anyway, this is the minutes of the conversation between

21     Dr. Franjo Tudjman with representatives of Central Bosnian municipalities

22     on the 8th of March, 1993.  So because of the situation we had up there,

23     these people, and [indiscernible], Krizanac, they're enumerated here,

24     Dominik Sakic from Zenica, they had come in to complain and talk about

25     the problems that they had up there with a clear preparation for an

Page 8542

 1     aggression by the BH Army against the Croats of the area.  And quite

 2     simply, I have no need to add anything to this, because it's all set out

 3     very precisely and specifically in a serious of statements.  They came to

 4     complain and wanted advice about what to do, because Croatia continued to

 5     support the joint struggle and was sending things, and these people found

 6     it difficult to understand.  It would be difficult for anybody to

 7     understand.  It's quite understandable that there was this aggression

 8     from an army here, which in Croatia have the status of a full-fledged

 9     friend.

10             However, what I would like to address now, and I hope you're

11     going to read through this, I'd just like to focus on one page where

12     they --

13        Q.   And it is page -- 0132-2353 is the ERN number of the page,

14     general.  And the English version, it is page 18 of the 60 pages.

15        A.   Zoran Maric here is stating a fact, that there is an extremist

16     part of the SDA Party, and he goes on to say that in the area they don't

17     have any educated cadres.  And he goes on to say, and I quote:

18             "While Mr. Praljak was in Travnik, things went fairly well.  As

19     soon as he left, the situation deteriorated."

20             The situation became worse.  There was no military control.

21     Crime became prevalent.  Some military commanders took over civilian

22     power and authority, and vice versa, of course, I assume, because I know

23     that civilians also began meddling in army affairs.  And they're asking

24     the president to prevail upon me to return.

25             So when I'm speaking pro domo sua, I simply feel that I worked

Page 8543

 1     well and that this is confirmation that I used, and a harnessed all my

 2     energy, and succeeded in keeping the situation under control, as far as

 3     was possible, and that with my departure the situation deteriorated quite

 4     significantly.  So that would be my answer.

 5        Q.   Would you now look at the next document, which is P01852.  It's

 6     already an exhibit in these proceedings.  We've already seen it.

 7     However, I feel that it is important for you, personally, to say a few

 8     words about it.

 9        A.   The document was written a little later, that is to say, on the

10     12th of April, 1993, and the HVO of Travnik is writing in connection with

11     the armed conflicts that took place around Easter, and they are writing

12     to the president, Franjo Tudjman.  And they explain in detail what the

13     problems were, so I have nothing to add to that, it's already an exhibit,

14     except to say that on the last page in that letter, they are requesting

15     that they be assisted, and sent officers from the Croatian Army to help

16     them out, but they're also asking for my return.  I have nothing to add

17     to that.  And here we see who this was sent to: the president of the

18     republic, Tudjman; then Boban; then Jadranko Prlic.

19             I consider that this is confirmation of the kind of work that I

20     was doing there.  And I have only managed to explain my work partially

21     here, because I don't have enough time to go into the dozens of examples

22     where intervention was required and where it was necessary to stand up to

23     people, issue threats perhaps, shout, entreat, and so on.  It's not

24     possible to go into all the details and ramifications of that here, and I

25     have just selected certain examples.

Page 8544

 1        Q.   Yes, General, thank you.  I apologise for overlapping.  Was this

 2     invitation for assistance from the Croatian officers for offensive

 3     operations that the HVO intended to take?

 4        A.   The HVO in Central Bosnia had absolutely no possibility of using

 5     their forces and manpower that they had at their disposal, under an

 6     encirclement and siege by the BH Army, to even think about any offensive

 7     action.  That, quite simply, was out of the question.  It was just not

 8     possible, because the ratio of forces was such that not even the maddest

 9     commander would have entered it into his head to take such action.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'd now like to ask you to take up the next document,

11     which is 3D02638, and they are the wartime recollections of

12     General Alagic.  And in English, it is document 3D02832, General Alagic's

13     war memoirs, and the text begins on page 3D34-1053.

14        A.   Ms. Nika, what number did you say?  I've got this mixed up.

15        Q.   3D02638, and you'll find it in the large Central Bosnia section

16     of your file.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Could we get a citation to the English page,

18     please.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  3D02832.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Well, in e-court I have the translation as

21     beginning on page 3D41-0087.  It's a ten-page document, so I'm not -- the

22     page number that's been given doesn't correspond to the English

23     translation that's in e-court, I don't believe.  It's just ten pages.  If

24     the general wants to start talking about it, I can try to find it.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll start off with page 8 of the

Page 8545

 1     Bosniak version, page 8.

 2             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] 3D41-0089 is the English page

 3     number.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Alagic was a general in the

 5     BH Army, and in his book, "The War in Central Bosnia," describes, of

 6     course, his vision of the events.

 7             Here, in this particular excerpt, the first one, he speaks

 8     about -- well, it's confirmation of what we've been discussing here

 9     throughout.  Alagic was an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army

10     previously, and he tells us when the first cockades in the barracks

11     appeared.

12             And just for your information, Your Honours, the cockades were

13     worn by the Chetniks.  It's an insignia that the Chetniks wore on their

14     caps and hats, or the subara type of Serbian fur hats, and he says that

15     occurred already in 1990.

16             And lower down, he says he was in Belgrade when a secret plan was

17     devised called "Avala 1."  And then he goes on to say about the training,

18     and Alagic was the commander of a Russian division there, that was the

19     role he played, and they are the plans S-1 and S-2 that I have already

20     talked about; that is to say, an attack of the Warsaw Pact or rather

21     NATO, a possible NATO attack and training, and the response by the

22     Yugoslav People's Army.  And those maps have already been shown here.

23             Then he goes on to say that already at that time, he came to

24     realise that, in fact, they were doing this for the line

25     Karlobag-Karlovac-Virovitica that we mentioned before, and that already

Page 8546

 1     at that time the army did not have plans elaborated for the defence of

 2     Slovenia.  He goes on to say that when this was made clear to him,

 3     et cetera, et cetera, and says that this plan Avala-2 dealt with an

 4     attack on Psunj, Papuk, that's all Croatia, towards Zagreb; and that the

 5     topic of his graduation thesis was an attack with an armoured mechanised

 6     brigade in order to go through Bihac, to Korana, et cetera, the two

 7     rivers towards Slovenia, and to make a wedge there.

 8        Q.   3D41-0090 is the English page number, and 3D33-0343 in Croatian.

 9        A.   Here in this part, he says that he decided not to stay with the

10     JNA.  He engaged in trade after that, but he used his military booklet to

11     travel across Krajina.  And now obviously this is a piece of information

12     about the times that we're talking about, when he could leave the JNA and

13     still retain his military booklet and travel across Krajina that the

14     Serbs had already placed under their control.

15             He says that he could not join the military organisation of

16     Bosniaks and Croats in Banja Luka because there was no military

17     organisation of Bosniaks and Croats.  This all smells a rat.  It seems

18     that the journey that person took was somewhat strange, which I'm going

19     to demonstrate later.

20             He says his address was in Vojvodina, so they couldn't trace him

21     in Banja Luka, and he says that he was arrested in August 1992.

22             Sanski Most is not important, but it says here that he was

23     charged, but General Milan Uzelac, the commander of the Yugoslav People's

24     Forces of the corps of Banja Luka in the Yugoslav People's Army

25     intervened, and he was released, which means that Uzelac knew very well

Page 8547

 1     where he was, and he was released without any documents.  That meant that

 2     he could not leave the town, which simply wasn't true.

 3             I don't know what the rest of the document has been translated,

 4     but if it hasn't been, I can read it, because everything seems very odd.

 5             He says he was arrested in August 1992, that he had been in town

 6     for 15 days, and that on the eve of the attack against the municipality

 7     that took place on the 12th of May, he talked about defence with Sabic,

 8     Kljucanin and Osmancevic.  Now, the 19th of May certainly precedes August

 9     1992, of course.  He met with the Muslims already then - this was in

10     Banja Luka - and I believe at that time it was simply not possible.

11             And why am I saying this?  I'm saying this because of the

12     following paragraph, which is paragraph 13.

13        Q.   General, you have to read, because we don't have a translation.

14        A.   He says:

15             "This meant that I was free," this has been translated, "but that

16     I could not leave town."

17             And I continue, and I quote:

18             "I stayed in town for 15 days after that.  It was only on the eve

19     of the attack on the municipality which took place on the 19th of May,

20     1992," and we know that the war was already raging in Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     at the time, and I continue quoting from his book:

22             "I talked to Sabic, Kljucanin and Osmancevic about defence.  I

23     didn't know whether anything had been organised.  I didn't know how many

24     men they had, where they were."

25             And he says that the talks took place two days before the Chetnik

Page 8548

 1     attack on the town.  How did Chetniks attack Banja Luka?  I'm not clear

 2     on that, and I'm also not clear how come he was arrested in August 1992,

 3     and then he says after that he spent another 15 days in town, and so on

 4     and so forth.

 5             Let's move on, and then you will see what happened next.

 6             The arrival in Travnik, that's on page 13 in the Bosniak version.

 7        Q.   3D41-0090 in the English version, and 3D33-0344 in the Croatian

 8     version of the text.

 9        A.   Look here.  The gentleman, who is in Banja Luka, talks about the

10     organisation of defence, and then on the 13th of January, 1993, he

11     appears in Travnik.  He reported to the personnel officer in the

12     barracks.  Thus, in the barracks in Travnik, which had been abandoned by

13     the JNA, the HVO troops and the BiH Army troops were billeted.  He

14     volunteered, and he said that he could be a foot soldier or a commander.

15     He said that he was a lieutenant-colonel by rank and that his complete

16     personal documentation was in his brief-case.  Before that, he said that

17     his documents had been taken away from him.

18             He went to Visoko.  He met with Cuskic, Mahmuljin and

19     Hadzihasanovic there.  He said the barracks did not look like a military

20     premises.  He was given a task to organise three battalions.  And then

21     somebody accused him of being a Communist and asked him why he was there,

22     and his reply was that that person, that soldier, could not replace him

23     and that Alagic could, in turn, replace that other person in his place.

24             Your Honours, it is absolutely unclear what happened between May

25     or August 1992 until the 13th of January, 1993, what Mr. Alagic was doing

Page 8549

 1     during all that time and where he was during all that time.  Obviously,

 2     he did not write this in his book.  However, if somebody spends six

 3     months under a fierce attack of the JNA and Chetniks against his people,

 4     he was hiding somewhere, unless, once he was released by Uzelac, he did

 5     not start working for the JNA, and you will see why.

 6             Six months, only the 13th of January, he reported in order to

 7     help the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he says that before that,

 8     he could not leave town.  If he could not leave town in May, then - and

 9     I'm talking about May 1992 - then in January 1993, it's absolutely

10     unclear how he was even alive.

11             Let's go to page 14.

12        Q.   Just a moment.  3D41-0091.  Croatian, 3D33-0345.

13        A.   Now look how this functioned.  He says that when he arrived,

14     those were the first elements of the preparations for a serious war

15     against the Chetniks.  It seems that before that, they did not deal with

16     the Chetniks at all.

17             And he goes on to say at that time Cuskic returned from his

18     holiday that he had spent in Rijeka.  So Cuskic, the army commander, was

19     in Croatia, spending his holidays in Rijeka.  They agree to establish the

20     Bosanska Krajina OG group, and that OG group would incorporate four

21     brigades; the 7th, the 17th, the 27th and the 37th.  It was only then

22     that they established the brigades.  What they did before that and who

23     was defending the area from the Chetniks, I leave to the Trial Chamber to

24     conclude.

25             And now look at this:  An order to establish the OG Group

Page 8550

 1     Bosanska Krajina was issued on the 27th February.  Thus, on the 27th

 2     February, 1992 -- that's 3, madam.

 3             Rasim Imamovic had arrived from Zagreb with an order to establish

 4     the Motorised Banja Luka Brigade headquartered in Zagreb, or rather its

 5     command would be headquartered in Zagreb, which means that the refugees

 6     from Banja Luka, who ran for their dear life, Muslims, had the seat of

 7     their command in Zagreb; and they issued the order to use all the men

 8     that would become a motorised brigade, and thus they established the

 9     27th, composed of some refugees from Kotor Varos, and it was only then,

10     as he says, some orders were issued, but they were not implemented, and

11     these were the beginnings of the BiH Army, and in that area that army

12     would show its strength exclusively, or predominantly, on the HVO.

13             And now let's move on to page 15.

14        Q.   Just a question before that.  You mentioned Mehurici.  Where is

15     Mehurici?

16        A.   It is -- it is in Central Bosnia.  This was the central base of

17     the Mujahedin.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And now the page that you are moving to now, I have

19     not written it down.  It is 3D, in Croatian, 33-0346, and in the English

20     version it is 3D41-0091.

21        A.   He elaborates here and says that there was the Jajce syndrome.

22     He says that people had to have the idea restored into their heads that

23     they would be returning home, because the entire region of Krajina, and I

24     mean, Your Honours, the west and north part of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

25     Banja Luka in the direction of Croatia.  And he says that people were

Page 8551

 1     fleeing to Europe, across Croatia, and they were considering the transfer

 2     of some units to Bihac.  The HVO printed papers as travel documents.

 3             It says here that the HVO officers, which at that time still

 4     cooperated with us, were holding it against him for organising m

 5     mobilisation.  I don't know where he draws the right to proclaim

 6     mobilisation.  And, second of all, the mobilisation was proclaimed by

 7     Mr. Izetbegovic, i.e., the Presidency.  And he says that he concentrated

 8     units in Travnik.  He says that he had brought in the 305th Jajce, a

 9     brigade that was composed of the refugees from Jajce; Muslims.

10             And now, please, he says that he was visited by

11     Ambassador Thebault, the Vance-Owen Plan was already topical.  And now,

12     Your Honours, look what he says to Thebault, and I quote:

13             "This is where this plan is going to fall through, Mr. Thebault."

14             And he also says to him:

15             "This is where Herceg-Bosna is going to fall onto its knees."

16             And he also says that the joint barracks in Travnik, he was not

17     going to share with the HVO.  And he says very determinedly two

18     militaries cannot share a barracks, two flags cannot be on that building.

19     He said to the commander of the HVO, You are going to leave the

20     barracks, whatever happened later on concerning the arrest of the people

21     in the barracks in Travnik.  And he says the commander of the area says

22     very neatly, and he continued.

23             He says that he was unknown.  His successes were not known to

24     Milosevic and Tudjman.  Milosevic and Tudjman did not know anything about

25     him.  Can you imagine the arrogant vanity of a JNA officer who's hiding

Page 8552

 1     in Banja Luka and talks to Uzelac and makes God knows what kind of

 2     arrangements with him; and Tudjman and Milosevic knew of him, and that's

 3     why he was successful in his attacking the HV, robbing them of any right

 4     to existence unless they do what he said, because, as he found -- as he

 5     found later, Tudjman and Milosevic had split Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

 6     Alagic - they don't know anything about him - he is an enigma for him,

 7     and that's why he's going to do things differently and he's going to defy

 8     their plans.

 9             I believe everything is clear, the misery of this way of

10     thinking, but I'll skip all that.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  There may be a miss -- you may have misspoken,

12     or an error in the translation, perhaps, on line 11.  You explained that

13     this is why he was successful in his attacking the HV.  Should it not

14     read "HVO"?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Right.

17             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   General, you have mentioned for the second time Uzelac.  Who was

19     Uzelac?

20        A.   Uzelac was the commander of the Banja Luka Corps.  Uzelac was the

21     commander of the Banja Luka Corps of the Yugoslav People's Army, and

22     later on, I believe, of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I don't know the

23     rest of his career, but he was the most important Serb in that area.

24             He released him from prison.  For the next six and seven months,

25     nobody knew what he was doing, and then Travnik comes, and you see what

Page 8553

 1     he says about Travnik.  And this is, Your Honours, something we don't

 2     have any direct evidence about, but these things show that they

 3     infiltrated into the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbs infiltrated

 4     into the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina people who were working for them

 5     during the course of events and who, amongst other factors, caused the

 6     BiH Army to provoke a conflict and attack the HVO not only in

 7     Central Bosnia but also in Vakuf, Konjic and Mostar.

 8             And now can we go on to page 18, where he develops the thesis.

 9             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It is 3D33-0348 in Croatian, and in English this is 3D41-0092.

11        A.   Firstly, he provides an explanation to justify his actions.  He

12     says that the Croats -- or, rather, that the Chetniks had managed to

13     reach their political positions and that the Croats instilled political

14     structures in the area that should have been Croatian.

15             There were a lot of more Muslims there, and at that time Croats

16     didn't play -- which you can see from the stories of the people who came

17     to see Franjo Tudjman.  They were already in an inferior position, much

18     inferior.  And then he says that the heads of the HDZ were transformed

19     into the commanders of the HVO, and then he goes on to say he was of the

20     opinion that for the strategic situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, not

21     only in Central Bosnia, and he arrived at a conclusion that only a wedge

22     in the centre of Bosnia could have broken their grip, and when he says

23     "their grip," he means the Croats and the HVO.

24             The overall situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to the

25     ideas of Commander Alagic, who is in command of four very strong brigades

Page 8554

 1     of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the situation in Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina would become clear, not after an attack against the Chetniks,

 3     the Army of Republika Srpska; he's rather going to use a wedge in order

 4     to break from the grip of the HVO.  This is what he plans.

 5             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I will have to

 6     correct the transcript, although the general is really doing his best to

 7     speak slowly.

 8             At page 40 [as interpreted], line 11, the general did not say

 9     Herzegovina would become clear, but would become resolved.  So the

10     general didn't say that the situation would be clear, but that the

11     situation would be resolved.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think we have to correct the correction.  That

14     was not page 40, but page 60 that you referred to.

15             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, that's correct.  I

16     said "60."

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that's not what Praljak is

18     saying.  That's what Alagic is saying, and that's why we have to read all

19     those words very calmly.

20             A, the whole of the strategic situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina

21     would be resolved by breaking the grip of the HVO.  That was very

22     important to do, and he says, We actually managed to do that later.  And

23     at the time of writing, he believes that in the areas where he attacked

24     the HVO and where he achieved his goals, partially, of course, that the

25     definitive division of Bosnia and Herzegovina was prevented.  Serbs,

Page 8555

 1     nothing, 70 percent of the territory, nothing that was occupied.  He's

 2     only interested in the HVO.  And by defeating the HVO in Central Bosnia,

 3     he prevented the division of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             Your Honours, this is the concept that the high-ranking officers

 5     in the BH Army had, and this was written here quite specifically, who

 6     attacked whom in Central Bosnia, who harboured what intentions, and who

 7     thought what.

 8             Further, he goes on to say that the Operative Group

 9     Bosnian Krajina is an example of the finest troops of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, and he specifically speaks about two brigades, the 7th

11     Muslim and the 17th Krajina Brigade.  And he goes on to say that they

12     operated in Travnik, Zenica, and Kacuni --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters remark, could Mr. Praljak please

14     speak into the microphone.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the intention of the enemy, of

16     course.  The enemy is a reference to the HVO, to take the Lasva valley,

17     Travnik, Vitez, the Lasva, not the Busovaca area.  And this mobile

18     prevented this intention and now he goes on to say --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters remark, the interpreters cannot

20     hear Mr. Praljak because he's not really speaking into the microphone.

21             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Mr. Praljak, please, the interpreter is asking

22     you to speak to the microphone, and of course speak more slowly.  Thank

23     you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             So, Your Honour, they attacked Sebesic.  You can see they had

Page 8556

 1     hundreds of orders for the attack.  The HVO has no attack orders, apart

 2     from some minor tactical movements or what is called the active defence.

 3     He says that they won a victory, and our tactics, he say, consists -- he

 4     says consisted of infiltrating elements of our forces into the rear and

 5     then creating conditions for attacks from a circular base.

 6             The people from -- the guys from Sebesic later on fought in the

 7     Prozor area.  I know those guys.  Sebesic is deep behind this line.  It's

 8     a place that is between Vakuf and Travnik.  And apart from cleaning up

 9     and the attack to take this road, there's no other purpose, apart from

10     defeating the HVO.

11             Let us move on to page 21.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I have a question, Mr. Praljak.  You have said

13     that there were hundreds -- or that, We had or we could see hundreds of

14     attack orders from the ABiH.  I do not see them.  Can you explain where

15     we see them?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, Your Honour, we have

17     seen at least a hundred orders from the BH Army for attacks, from Mostar

18     to Konjic, Vares; and they are on the record, where it says quite

19     explicitly an attack order.  In the Neretva-93 offensive, dozens and

20     dozens of such orders.

21             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   General, I'm sorry.  Before we go on to this page, as regards

23     Sebesic, what was the importance of Sebesic?

24        A.   It afforded control of the roads.  It was a dominant point.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The page is 3D41-0092 in English.  And 3D33-0349,

Page 8557

 1     that's in the Croatian language.

 2        A.   Well, this decision for him to take the Bosnian Posavina

 3     Operative Group was taken at a meeting in Plave Vode in Travnik.  That

 4     was their command that I went to often, and I knew where it was.  And

 5     Hadzihasanovic gave him some other units, 306, 325, 312, all those

 6     brigades.  I don't want to now list them all.  And then they were to be

 7     joined by the 27th Brigade, which was in the process of forming, and 75th

 8     Jajce Brigade.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters remark, we did not really hear the

10     number.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And now we can see the cynicism at

12     play.  This is where it starts.

13             So expecting the attack of the HVO on Travnik, after he had

14     already expelled them from the barracks, and after at least -- the units

15     that were at least seven times as strong as the small Travnik Brigade,

16     but at any rate, he says, Expecting the attack on Travnik, we have

17     already deployed our forces in secret, not only in the town but in the

18     entire area.  On Vilenica, we had our forces behind the HVO back without

19     them being aware of it.

20             And then he goes on to say we -- that they were ready to take

21     positions facing the Chetniks that were, of course, held by the HVO, but

22     once they attacked the HVO, the HVO would abandon the lines facing

23     Chetniks to defend itself, and then they would take those lines.

24             And then he goes on to say, And that is why when the city was

25     mopped up at around 1300 hours, I got onto a white mare, and that's what

Page 8558

 1     winners do.  The victors ride on white horses.  And so on and so forth.

 2             So they prepared the attack in secrecy.  They deployed the units

 3     behind the HVO backs.  They did not hold the lines against the Chetniks.

 4     They cleaned up the town, they expelled the population.  They captured a

 5     certain number of people, killed some of them.  And this is stated

 6     explicitly by a person who was in charge of these events, who

 7     participated in those events, a general of the BH Army, Alagic.

 8             Let us move on.  Page 26 --

 9        Q.   3D --

10             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would like to say something.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Sorry.

13             Before you go to other pages, I would like to ask you about

14     page 7 in the English text, and which is actually the page 30, 3-0, of

15     the original text, and here is an important point which I would like to

16     raise.

17             On page 30 of the original text, and page 7 here, the headline

18     says that, and I quote:

19             "Croatia sent 13 of its own brigades to Gornji Vakuf, Prozor and

20     Jablanica."  When I read it first, I thought that probably there is a

21     mistake, if the author would like to speak about the 13th, that is, and

22     not the 13 brigades.  And when I checked the original, it is being said

23     here, and I quote, and I am sorry for my pronunciation, that "Hrvatska in

24     Gornji Vakuf, Prozor, Jablanica [B/C/S spoken]."  So, anyway, we speak --

25     or they speak about 13 brigades of Croatia.

Page 8559

 1             Now, a few days ago, as we recall, there had been a discussion

 2     and exchange of views on the facts -- on the alleged facts, if there were

 3     any Croatian official units in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and of course you

 4     spoke about this question.  So now how would you explain this assertion

 5     that Croatia had 13 of its own brigades in that area, that is,

 6     Gornji Vakuf, Prozor and Jablanica?  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's quite simple,

 8     Your Honour Judge Prandler.  It is simply an insane lie.  Thirteen

 9     brigades of the Croatian Army liberated -- well, that's what I wanted to

10     get to.  I didn't mean to skip that, but now we're talking about 1994,

11     when they talk about Here and so on.

12             And as I've already told you, I was there in 1994, although the

13     Prosecution did not mention that.  I was there around Here.  Well, I

14     admit to that, and they can write this down and ask me about it.

15     Thirteen brigades of the HV -- of the Croatian Army defeated Martic's

16     army and liberated Krajina.  And when -- well, they liberated Bihac.  And

17     when they headed towards Banja Luka, it was a very strict order from

18     Franjo Tudjman and, in turn, from the Americans, Stop the troops from

19     inflicting a decisive defeat on the Bosnian Serbs.

20             Thirteen brigades of the Croatian Army would have gone through to

21     Tuzla in three days, but those lies served only to fluff up his own

22     glory, because he faced 13 brigades of the Croatian Army and yet he

23     defeated them all.  But Alagic says, for himself, that he's so cunning

24     because Milosevic and Tudjman couldn't really grasp what he was all

25     about.

Page 8560

 1             Can you get into the mind of this man, this man who is hiding in

 2     Banja Luka and who is trying to get some arrangements?  And now he

 3     believes that Tudjman and Milosevic are really thinking about him, but he

 4     managed to slip through, and he managed to prevent the division of Bosnia

 5     and Herzegovina by defeating the HVO in Central Bosnia.  He does not

 6     speak about any actions against Chetniks in his book, not a single one,

 7     because he's not interested in that.

 8             His group, the 7th, the 17th, and all the other brigades, he did

 9     not take this group and lead it towards Banja Luka.

10             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I hate to interrupt you, but for me, your answer

11     is enough.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, if we use the

13     assumption that late General Alagic is telling the truth, that there are

14     13 brigades, it is an important armed forces and theoretically these

15     brigades, which moved, must have moved along with orders.  You know,

16     there must be some evidence.  You can't move 13 brigades without

17     physicians and logistics and so forth and so on.  So if he's really

18     telling the truth, in the archives and in the documents of the Croatian

19     Army, we must find evidence of this.

20             You had a very senior position in the Croatian Army, so what can

21     you tell us about this?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, the same thing.

23     Well, let the Prosecution show any order to any Croatian brigade at that

24     time, in that area.  Thirteen brigades of the Croatian Army, that's

25     almost 30.000 soldiers, 30.000 soldiers.  30.000 soldiers, in addition to

Page 8561

 1     all of those who were there, well, that's -- these are columns that are

 2     hundreds of kilometres long.  A brigade that is moving in echelons, it's

 3     hundreds of kilometres long.  This is such a bare-faced stupid lie,

 4     because you can have an intelligent lie.  If he mentioned just a brigade,

 5     well, then perhaps you can work around that, but if somebody is really

 6     talking nonsense and just blathering on and lying, but when he's also

 7     stupid, then he says 13 brigades, 30.000 soldiers, that's the 13 brigades

 8     of the Croatian Army.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, so we've got one part of the book

10     that the general is tendering, which he contends is a lie.  Now I'd like

11     to take us back to another part of the book which he wants the

12     Trial Chamber to accept as true because evidently it suits his case, and

13     I want to get the time-frame for that.  This is -- I'm looking at page 6

14     of the English translation.  I think it's page 21 of the book.  At least

15     that's what the translation indicates.

16             The general was talking about this incident or this text in which

17     it's written about the 306th and the 325th and the 312th, et cetera,

18     Brigades, and the decision to try to take the Operative Zone

19     Bosanska Krajina.  That's something the general was talking about a

20     couple of minutes ago, and how Alagic evidently redeployed the ABiH units

21     away from the Serb positions and put them in a position to face the HVO.

22     What's the time-frame, if I could ask, when all that is said to have

23     occurred?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These attacks on Sebesic were in

25     the spring, February or March.  Travnik was cleared up, and we know that

Page 8562

 1     for sure.  Petkovic, stand up and tell us.  I can't remember the date

 2     exactly.  If you know about that, I think Their Honours will let you get

 3     to your feet.

 4             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Not without the Judges' permission.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant with the Judges'

 6     permission.  When Travnik was cleared up, it was 1993, in May or June.

 7     That's correct.

 8             Now, what Judge Prandler was saying about 1994, those were --

 9     there was fighting in January 1994, when they attempted to break through

10     again at Vakuf.  And, Your Honours, and gentlemen of the Prosecution, I

11     state again that I was there again as a volunteer and I took part in

12     that, and there were no Croatian forces over there at that time.  We

13     achieved certain tactical steps in advance, and I took part in them, and

14     I can enumerate: Ciganske Livade, Zavisce, Skarina Glava, Here,

15     and perhaps one more that I can't quite remember just now.

16             I came here to tell the truth, and I shall tell the truth.

17             So he cleared up Travnik in May or the beginning of June 1993,

18     but that is easily established if we look at the documents that we have

19     at our disposal.

20             And I'd like to look at page 26, please.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  We will take a

22     look at page 26 after the break.  It's time for the break.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I wish to apologise to everyone.  I have another

24     engagement in another country, which will force me to leave after the

25     break.  I will read up, of course.

Page 8563

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

 4             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   General, before we continue, just to correct something it says in

 6     the transcript on page 67, line 5.  When you were speaking about the

 7     length of the deployment and development of 13 brigades and one brigade,

 8     it says in the transcript that one brigade moves hundreds of kilometres.

 9        A.   No, no.  We have had the problem -- or, rather, how much an

10     infantry or armoured brigade, when it marches in echelon, what length of

11     a route this occupies.

12             First of all, the brigade doesn't always move in an echelon, in

13     echelon formation, but two echelons.  And then I drew a diagram and

14     proposed to Their Honours that a brigade moving along the road goes for

15     about 45, 50 -- takes up 45 to 50 kilometres of vehicles, men, and

16     everything else that a brigade is composed of.  So if you have 13

17     brigades, well, in Vakuf I can't speak about anything so stupid.

18     Especially there's that report of mine which I sent from Rama and

19     Uskoplje to myself, I addressed it to myself in 1993, when I asked the

20     others to tell me exactly how many men we have up at the front-line.  And

21     from that document, which has already been admitted into evidence, and it

22     was written during the war, it's quite clear what forces I had.

23             And in 1993, I was leading the defence of Uskoplje and defending

24     them from the BH Army, the manpower and strength I had, and it's below my

25     logical dignity to talk about 13 brigades of the Croatian Army in that

Page 8564

 1     area; of 30.000 soldiers, that would be.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That was for the record.

 3             As far as I know, we left off discussing page 26 of the book,

 4     which is 3D41-0093 in English and 3D33-0350 in Croatian.

 5        A.   He goes on to explain the war in Central Bosnia, and he says that

 6     the decisive moment was the break through in the Krizancevo Selo, which

 7     was on the 22nd or 23rd of December, 1993.

 8             One has to note here that about 70 people were killed not in

 9     combat.  Those people were killed in Krizancevo Selo.  There's a report

10     to that effect by the English intelligence officers, and there are some

11     other documents.  And he says that after that, the Croats were forced to

12     sign a cease-fire agreement.  As far as I know, and General Petkovic will

13     know even better than me, that at least such -- ten such cease-fire

14     agreements were signed, and we adhered to them.

15             And this is how he explains why he did not liberate Vitez,

16     liberate Vitez.  He says that this is due to the fact that he was left

17     there as a strategic valve, that Vitez was left there as a strategic

18     valve.  If they had taken Vitez, arms and the rest of the things would

19     have stopped coming from Croatia.  And he says there was a shortage of

20     everything, food and everything else, and that was one strategic problem,

21     and that Croatia would perhaps have changed its position.  And Croatia

22     unfortunately, if I may say so, did not change its position after all of

23     the operations and all-out aggression.

24             And he says that he was afraid he would not be able to control

25     the troops after what had happened in Ahmici and Stupni Do.

Page 8565

 1             Krizancevo Selo, Uzdol, Grabovica, and all the others where the

 2     BH Army killed over 1100 Croats outside combat, he doesn't say a word

 3     about that.  So much about that.

 4        Q.   Our next page is 30 --

 5        A.   Yes, but here I've already answered that question.  Truth be

 6     told, at that time General Roso was in command of the HVO, and I said

 7     that I -- after having left the position as the commander of the

 8     Main Staff of the HVO, because of further attacks after the cease-fires

 9     had been signed, there was a cease-fire agreement which was signed in

10     October 1993.  After the offensive by the BH Army, Neretva-93 was

11     stopped.  They did not stop attacking the HVO, and they did not give up

12     their plan to break through to the west and to the sea.

13             And I emphasise once again that there is no single word about the

14     attacks against Serbs, which means in the direction of Banja Luka, the

15     corridor, or Bihac.

16             He said previously that if he had taken Vitez, Hrvatska would

17     have perhaps have stopped supplying Bihac, which never occurred to

18     anybody to do so in Croatia, irrespective of the total incomprehensible

19     behaviour on the part of the BiH Army and the crimes that they had

20     committed, starting with Trusina and onwards.

21             Now let's go on, page 31.

22        Q.   3D33-0352; English, 3D41-0094.

23        A.   To a question put by this journalist, or whoever did this, about

24     the role of Alagic in the operation surrounding Vares, he says very

25     clearly that he issued the Vares operation order and that he was given

Page 8566

 1     the task to take the 7th Muslim Brigade and embark on the liberation of

 2     Vares from that side.

 3             One has to understand the fact that the attack on the HVO in

 4     Vares, which had been completely calm until then, and I've already spoken

 5     about the beginnings of the attack on Vares, and that was a liberation,

 6     for this kind of commanders in the BH Army, we were an enemy military and

 7     an enemy people.  On the following page, he says that the outcomes of the

 8     battle were very certain; that they were not afraid that they would not

 9     succeed.

10             He goes on to speak about the logistics of the 3rd Corps.  He

11     says that there were several logistics centres; that the black market was

12     flourishing; that there were food and ammunitions smuggled; and he says

13     once, in cooperation with the MUP, he tried to put a stop to that, to

14     curb that situation, but that it amounted to conflicts.  He says that the

15     situation was very difficult, that they were between a rock and a hard

16     place, and that's why he decided to start trading with the Chetniks in

17     the area of Meokrnje.  Therefore, when it comes to the liberation of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Croats and the HVO, he also cooperated

19     with Chetniks.

20             On page 34 --

21        Q.   3D41-0095, the English translation, and 3D33-0554 is the

22     original.

23        A.   There is a reference to the visit by Mr. Izetbegovic.

24        Q.   Just a moment.  Let me correct the page.  3D33-0354.

25        A.   Izetbegovic's arrival at the 7th Muslim Brigade and the handing

Page 8567

 1     out of the war flag, this illustrates a staged incident that had been

 2     neutralised.  However, it also says here that some of the power-wielders

 3     in Zenica were against Alagic, so one cannot say that all Muslims or all

 4     politicians, like, for example, the situation was like in Tuzla, that

 5     they agreed to that kind of attitude towards Croats and the HVO.  And he

 6     says, in his turn, that they were against him because those people in

 7     Zenica were involved in the smuggling operations with the Chetniks

 8     through Bukovica.

 9             And then he speaks about the relations -- the good relations he

10     had with some people.  He wanted money to be allocated for the army and

11     whatnot.  And then we can go on to the following page.

12        Q.   Which is, in the original, 3D33-0355, and it is also 3D41-0096

13     for the English version.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's correction, 0095.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He says that towards the end of the

16     summer, he met Mr. Izetbegovic.  He says that he did not know anything

17     about any officers of the BH Army in Sarajevo.  He said to Izetbegovic

18     that he, himself, Alagic, had contacts with Bosniaks in Zagreb, and he

19     conveyed greetings to him from Hasan Cengic.  And that's the one and the

20     same Hasan Cengic who opposed Izetbegovic in the book written by

21     Filipovic, when he talks about an instance when Izetbegovic could not

22     manage Hasan Cengic and other young Muslims.

23             So Hasan Cengic was in Zagreb, and he was using the logistical

24     centres that the BiH Army had, with the support of the Croatian

25     government and the HV, that he enjoyed in Split, Zagreb and Samobor, to

Page 8568

 1     organise the implementation of the plan that the late Mr. Alagic was in

 2     the process of implementing.  What is important here is that he said to

 3     Mr. Alagic, We have to launch an offensive war.  When he says that, I

 4     claim that he had in mind the HVO, and we're talking about the month of

 5     September 1993, when Sefer Halilovic continued the offensive that he had

 6     launched already in the month of June, targeting the HVO along the

 7     Neretva Valley, and the ultimate goal was to reach the western borders of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina and thus by doing that to get rid of the Croats in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10             In the month of September, their political and military

11     leaderships signed a separate agreement with the Serbs about the future

12     organisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the end of war operations between

13     the BiH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska, in the month of September

14     1993.

15             Thank you.  So much about this book.

16        Q.   General, we left it off with the winter months of 1992, and now

17     we are moving to the month of January 1993.

18             For the Trial Chamber and everybody in the courtroom, this is a

19     small file under the title "15 January 1993."

20             Do you wish to say something in general terms or can we start

21     using documents immediately?

22        A.   No, I would like to speak in general terms.

23             Here, the Prosecutor, as one of the key elements showing the

24     behaviour of the Croatian Defence Council or, rather, the political

25     leadership of the HZ-HB, speaks about a document that they call a

Page 8569

 1     blackmail or an ultimatum, the ultimatum that the HVO sent to the BiH

 2     Army on the 15th of January, 1993.  This is not correct.  I state here

 3     that the text of the so-called ultimatum was coordinated in Zagreb on the

 4     13th and 14th of January, 1993.  It had been discussed with

 5     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic at the Esplanade Hotel in Zagreb.

 6             During the talks, at which I was also present, and when it comes

 7     to the drafting of the text of this so-called ultimatum, I was also

 8     involved in that.  There were other people involved; namely,

 9     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, Mr. Gojko Susak.  And I believe that on one

10     occasion, Mr. Gojko Susak was also in the presence of Lord Owen and

11     Cyrus Vance.  The two of them also participated in the talks, and that

12     that document was drafted based on the agreement that had been reached in

13     Geneva between the 1st of January and that time when the delegations

14     returned to Zagreb.

15             And when it comes to the drafting of the so-called ultimatum, I

16     was involved in that together with some other people from the Muslim

17     delegation, in the presence of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.  That document, on

18     the 15th of January, in the morning, I took with me as I went to Mostar,

19     and I handed it over to Mr. Stojic, Mr. Petkovic, and Mr. Prlic.  They

20     also signed it and published it.  The three of them had nothing

21     whatsoever to do with the document, namely.  The only possible minor

22     error occurred because Mr. Izetbegovic agreed that that document would

23     first be publicly broadcast by the minister of defence of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina; in other words, Mr. Izetbegovic's minister of defence.

25        Q.   Bozo Rajic?

Page 8570

 1        A.   Bozo Rajic, Bozo Rajic.  Since the fighting around Vakuf was

 2     already underway, on that morning, on the 15th of January, 1991 --

 3        Q.   General, the year?

 4        A.   A correction.  1993.  I correct myself.

 5             I was invited to come to President Tudjman's office, and I can

 6     say with 95 percent certainty that Mr. Izetbegovic was also there.  And

 7     there was a request upon me, and it was more formal than any ordinary

 8     request.  It was not an order, but it was more than a request.  It was

 9     still not an order.  In any case, it was for me to go to Uskoplje and to

10     calm the situation down.

11             I took the order with me, and when I arrived down there late in

12     the afternoon or in the evening, I don't know when exactly -- actually,

13     when I arrived in Mostar on the 15th of January, 1993, Messrs. Prlic,

14     Stojic and Petkovic heard from me that an agreement had been reached with

15     Mr. Izetbegovic, and I gave them the text.  I believe that Mr. Bozo Rajic

16     published that text a day later, because he also had received it as an

17     official document issued by the minister of defence of the Republic of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, which means that he was a joint minister for both the

19     BH Army and the HVO.

20             On the 16th, I went to Uskoplje, and I will dedicate some more

21     time to that later.

22             Mr. Izetbegovic changed his mind about the document, and on the

23     20th of January, the 20th of January, 1991, he issued an order --

24        Q.   3?

25        A.   Yes, 20 January 1993.  I apologise.

Page 8571

 1             Mr. Izetbegovic issued an order by way of which he had annulled

 2     the order issued by his defence minister and signed by the people that I

 3     mentioned.

 4             In the HVO at the time, there was the endless desire to see the

 5     conflicts, which could be felt and were ongoing, to come to an end, and

 6     that's why we can explain this haste, the haste in which the documents in

 7     Mostar were published one day where they were supposed to be; and perhaps

 8     I didn't convey the exact instructions that we should wait until the

 9     minister made it public, Minister Bozo Rajic, that is, the minister in

10     the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the defence minister, in fact, of

11     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12             It wasn't an ultimatum at all.  Let me repeat, the document came

13     into being on the basis of an agreement.  The document wanted to achieve

14     what we want to do achieve from the very beginning, and that is to

15     establish some sort of law and order in the army and thereby to prevent

16     all major problems in the area, in the field.

17             The document didn't do any damage, because on the 20th of

18     January, it was stopped, cancelled, except that we saw once again that,

19     as far as Mr. Izetbegovic was concerned, who changed something he had

20     agreed to previously many times, that he was being controlled by somebody

21     stronger than him.  And in this case, according to my information, that

22     person was Haris Silajdzic.  And in his statement for this Tribunal about

23     how Silajdzic did this at a meeting which was held at the time, he wrote

24     a statement to this Tribunal.

25             So I have nothing further to add, except to say that we can now

Page 8572

 1     look at the transcript, and as far as this agreement is concerned and the

 2     creation of this agreement, in conformity with the agreements reached in

 3     Geneva, the following persons took part:  Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen.

 4        Q.   General, I have to ask you the question, because according to the

 5     transcript it would appear that Haris Silajdzic gave a statement for the

 6     Defence.

 7        A.   No.  Mr. Antun Vrdoljak made a statement for the Defence, who was

 8     at the meeting when Mr. Silajdzic, who had just returned from America,

 9     exerted pressure on Alija Izetbegovic not to sign an agreement of this

10     kind.  And then I suppose that's where he changed his opinion later on,

11     of course with great resistance from his generals, Halilovic and the

12     rest.

13        Q.   For the record, once again I want to state the numbers of the

14     documents that you referred to.  One is P0115 [as interpreted], which is

15     the decision by Dr. Jadranko Prlic; and the second one is P01140, which

16     is an order by the head of the Defence Department of the HZ-HB,

17     Mr. Bruno Stojic; and the third is P01139, which is the order from

18     Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic.  I have to repeat the first number, P1155.

19     Thank you, it's correct now.

20             Now, General, linked to the last document --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, you addressed the

22     issue of the ultimatum of the 15th of January, 1993.  We have the

23     documents before us, and I would like to thank your Defence counsel for

24     having prepared this small binder, which means that we can see all the

25     rest of the documents.

Page 8573

 1             On reading this document, we realise that provinces 3, 8 and 10

 2     are being implemented, in military terms.  These documents aim at

 3     establishing military command, either ABiH ones or HVO ones, depending on

 4     which area had been decided upon during the Geneva Conference.  That's

 5     all very well, but an international conference was held.  We understood

 6     that you participated in all that very closely.

 7             To avoid any problems, couldn't you have suggested to those

 8     people that attended the international conference this particular

 9     document, in the form of a project document, to see that:  A, everybody

10     would agree to it; B, to see whether the states that were -- whose

11     representatives were attending the meeting, the diplomats, like

12     Cyrus Vance or Lord Owen, whether they would agree to this; and, C,

13     whether the opponent or the other side also agreed?  If you had

14     everybody's agreement, you could have then circulated this document.  Why

15     wasn't this done, and why was it decided to publish all these documents

16     and orders?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, this

18     had been agreed in Geneva, and it was operationalised in Zagreb along

19     with everybody's acquiescence and agreement.  When I say "everybody's,"

20     then I mean the HVO, on one hand, Mr. Izetbegovic, on the other side, and

21     Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen, on the third side, being the third party.  And

22     just to make this quite clear, let's read the minutes once again.

23             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] P01158 is the number.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and it's the 15th of January,

25     in Zagreb, at 1550 hours.  The meeting was at Dr. Franjo Tudjman's

Page 8574

 1     offices, and Mr. Cyrus Vance was attending, as well as Lord Owen,

 2     Alija Izetbegovic, and Mate Boban, and their associates.

 3             And look at what Gojko Susak says there.  We ought to read them

 4     quietly and calmly, and this is what Susak says:

 5             "Once again, I'd like to raise a practical question for which I

 6     thought that we had understood each other a long time ago."

 7             And he goes on to say:

 8             "Mr. Izetbegovic, we discussed this in Zagreb, and we discussed

 9     it in front of the co-chairman in Geneva," that is to say, Vance and

10     Owen.

11             And he says:

12             "Due to the effectiveness of the war and we are in an unfavorable

13     position anyway, where you have predominantly Muslim forces --"

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have the text on the

15     screen.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it says in Geneva, this was

17     divided up according to the provinces, so that the Command of the

18     BH Army, even where the HVO forces were, the command should be the HVO.

19             As Izetbegovic quite obviously, because he had a meeting in the

20     evening with Silajdzic, changed his mind, had already changed his mind,

21     he says, and this is Izetbegovic speaking:

22             "Gojko Susak, I can't understand what is being contested here,

23     after all the agreements that we had reached in Geneva, because the joint

24     interest is that we should defend ourselves from a joint enemy, a joint

25     foe."

Page 8575

 1             And he goes on to say:

 2             "Is this not something that we've already achieved, because an

 3     agreement had already been achieved?"

 4             And he goes on to say:

 5             "I sat together with you in the room --"

 6             Yes, I apologise for speaking too quickly.

 7             I was sitting in the hotel room, in the hotel here at the

 8     Esplanade Hotel, when we made a gentlemen's agreement that you would work

 9     on this, and then he goes on to say:

10             "I don't see what is contentious if, in Gornji Vakuf, no matter

11     if there are more Muslims or fewer Croats there, but it is in the

12     territory controlled by the HVO, if orders now coming from Sarajevo are

13     contradictory to orders from Mostar."

14             And he goes on to say:

15             "Well, you're killing yourselves.  Then the Serbs do not need to

16     fight you any longer, if that's the case."

17             So since I took part in this, I claim and stand by what I've

18     already said.  An agreement had been reached in the matter, and quite

19     obviously -- that is quite obvious because this was discussed in Geneva.

20             And those talks in Geneva would, of course, continue, and on

21     several occasions we kept saying, Let's place the army at least under

22     some sort of control in this way until a final politician solution is

23     found, because with generals of this kind, like Alagic and the rest of

24     them, without a joint command and some sort of -- well, Your Honours,

25     that HVO command was not supposed to be mono-ethnical.  There was just

Page 8576

 1     the number-one man issuing orders, and it was the second man in command

 2     who was supposed to be a Muslim, so this command -- that was the kind of

 3     joint command it was, and the BH Army remained the Army of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina, with its full establishment, and that was only in order to

 5     introduce a minimum of law and order.  It wasn't the subordination of one

 6     army to another, in the classical sense, for us to be able to speak about

 7     any personnel policy, how many soldiers, who was able to replace whom,

 8     and things of that kind.

 9             You see, you have a problem on the ground, in the field, when

10     there are two commands.  There's one unit standing next to another unit,

11     and you don't know how strong each of these are, what the strength of one

12     is and what the strength of the other is, so there is a lack of

13     confidence, generally speaking.

14             According to this agreement, this is a classical form and akin to

15     the system in NATO.  The British troops in Iraq are British troops, but

16     there is one commander who coordinates for the Poles over there and the

17     British, one person who coordinates them.  The armies, however, retain

18     their entire being and their entire entity.  That remains intact.  But

19     you have to know who does what.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me interrupt

21     what you're saying so we can go to the crux of things.

22             There are two pages.  The minutes of the meeting is 55 pages'

23     long -- 53 pages -- my colleagues and myself, we'll read the remaining 53

24     pages, but I don't know what is said afterwards.  But Mate Boban, who was

25     there, couldn't he, in fact, and Mr. Vance and Owen say the following:

Page 8577

 1     My military experts have prepared orders according to which, as of

 2     tomorrow, or as of such and such hour, there will be resubordination

 3     between different units between HVO and ABiH, and we are handing you over

 4     these orders, these are the orders that are to be sent out a few hours

 5     from now, if everybody agrees?  Why didn't things follow this course?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, that's precisely

 7     how it was done.  We prepared all that, and Mr. Izetbegovic said, Okay,

 8     yeah, that's it, and I will give that to Bozo Rajic to make it public.

 9     And I took it with me to Mostar.  And it was published a day before by

10     the three people because we wanted to prevent any possible conflicts, and

11     we were in a hurry to do so.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you

13     correctly, all these documents signed by Mr. Stojic, Petkovic and so

14     forth and so on, were signed and handed over in full agreement with

15     Mr. Izetbegovic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  The only mistake

17     was that it was first supposed to be made public by Bozo Rajic, and

18     Bozo Rajic, as the defence minister, published it.  This document was not

19     submitted here.  It should have been also among the documents.  And on

20     the 20th of January, Mr. Izetbegovic cancelled the order by his defence

21     minister, Bozo Rajic.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But if everyone

23     agreed up until January 20th, this means that it cannot be an ultimatum.

24     When everyone agrees, there can be no ultimatum.  Is this a logical

25     inference?

Page 8578

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, there is no

 2     ultimatum.  An agreement is not an ultimatum.  This was an agreement that

 3     was reached with the Commander-In-Chief, Mr. Izetbegovic, and it was made

 4     public by his defence minister, Bozo Rajic.  And for reasons that I

 5     already stated, and probably the rebellion on the part of his generals

 6     because they didn't want that, Mr. Izetbegovic cancelled that on the 20th

 7     of January, 1993, without suffering any consequences.  There were no

 8     consequences for anyone.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   General, when you came from Zagreb, did you take with you any

12     orders that were already written or did you just bring with you the meat,

13     so to speak, what has already been agreed?

14        A.   Well, it was written down.  I didn't come.  It was written down

15     on the paper, well, the agreement that we reached there, all the items,

16     item by item.  So I didn't come; it was written down, of course.

17        Q.   That's what I meant.  It was not an order that was already

18     drafted and written down.

19             You started speaking -- or, rather, you said that you would speak

20     about Vakuf a bit later on, when you were speaking about the 15th of

21     January, so perhaps you could now tell the Judges how your stay there

22     proceeded after the 15th of January, 1993.

23        A.   Well, after I stayed a while, I probably stayed a night in

24     Mostar, and the next day there were some talks about what was going on

25     and so on, in the 16th, in the evening, I reached Rama; on the 16th of

Page 8579

 1     January, 1993.  I met with Mr. Siljeg, of course, who was the commander

 2     of the operational zone, and with Mr. Miro Andric, who was the deputy,

 3     Mr. Petkovic's deputy.  And one must note here that the problem in Vakuf

 4     started a long, long time before that, and it escalated on several

 5     occasions, and then the tensions were calmed down and so on.

 6             In December 1992, the BH Army had already dug up all of its

 7     positions in all the hills around the town of Vakuf and in the Vakuf

 8     itself.  I have already shown this map, and the English major who was

 9     there at the time confirmed its accuracy.

10             And both Mr. Andric and Mr. Siljeg, and on my orders and on my

11     demand, in December 1992 went to a number of meetings with the BH Army

12     Command in Gornji Vakuf to solve this problem, because the line facing

13     the Serbs, as I've shown on the map, was 10, 15 kilometres away, as the

14     crow flies, in the direction of Raducki Kamen, and they covered the line

15     in a very small area, extremely small area, extremely small area, whereas

16     in Vakuf, they had two brigades.  And this escalated to such a degree

17     that the HVO commander from Vakuf, Zrinko Tokic, who will testify here,

18     was no longer able to go to his headquarters.  For instance, he went to

19     Rama to attend a meeting, and then he was supposed to go to his

20     headquarters in Vakuf, he had to be taken through the town by UNPROFOR.

21     It was quite obvious that the situation was untenable, in military terms,

22     because they had cut off the roads, the main road going through Vakuf and

23     the side roads.  There was a small path through Pidris.

24        Q.   When you say "they," you mean the BH Army?

25        A.   Yes, the BH Army cut off all the roads, and once all the

Page 8580

 1     opportunities to talk were over, they felt, rightly so, that the threat

 2     that the BH Army posed by digging the trenches in such a manner, and the

 3     position that the HVO found itself was a clear military danger, and that

 4     they had to launch a military action to defend themselves against this

 5     threat, this danger.  And this was launched sometime on the 11th of

 6     January.  I went there to calm the situation down.

 7        Q.   When?

 8        A.   Well, on the 16th of January.  I don't have to repeat it so many

 9     times.  It was the 16th of January, 1993.  In the evening, I heard

10     everybody, the information, the arguments of the HVO officers, and I

11     demanded that another round of talks be held with the BH Army in the

12     presence of the English officers from UNPROFOR who were deployed there.

13             There are all those documents that we have seen so many times,

14     with demand that, A, all the trenches be dug over, and that the units

15     from the town -- and so on.

16             It is clear, based on all that, that the BH Army felt that it had

17     the position of strength and that it was a part of its plan to cover the

18     roads towards Bugojno and Central Bosnia, because they obstructed passage

19     through town on all roads; and since the talks did not yield any logical

20     fruit, they decided that the military targets on those hills, so we're

21     talking only about military targets on those hills, something that in

22     military terminology is called "active defence"; so I didn't agree with

23     them, but I didn't have any arguments to argue against them.  There was

24     not a single logical argument that I could use to deny them this right.

25             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  At page 86, line

Page 8581

 1     19, the general said "I agreed with them," and it says in the transcript

 2     "I didn't agree with them."

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I didn't have the

 4     arguments to refute their clean logic that the HVO army -- armed forces

 5     should not be brought in a position to be completely blockaded in Vakuf,

 6     with the passage to Bugojno, with the Chetniks on the other side, because

 7     the BH Army had already left the lines facing the Chetniks.  This is

 8     inadmissible.

 9             The talks up there were going on, the tripartite talks; BH Army,

10     HVO, and the English, they also took part in it.  The action was

11     launched.  It was a clean military action, and I contacted on the 18th or

12     19th already, I don't know, because again, Your Honours, the delegations

13     that were in Zagreb went back to Geneva.  And General Petkovic also

14     travelled to Geneva, and I, of course, was not able to establish any

15     direct links with Geneva; so I called Susak, asking me to put me in touch

16     with Boban, and Petkovic, and whoever else it was I talked to, I really

17     don't know, and how this whole complicated communication went on, to tell

18     them what was going on.  And I asked that the commanders who were in

19     Geneva, General Petkovic and General Halilovic - I think that he was also

20     in Geneva at that time, I'm not sure - that orders be issued for the

21     conflict to stop, but with the proviso that there are positions that

22     should be removed from the mountains and --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, we will stop your

24     testimony now, because we only have a few minutes left.  This is an

25     important issue, and I'm sure that you will continue with this next week.

Page 8582

 1     We are now around the 18th and 19th of January, 1993, and you are giving

 2     us a chronological testimony, so I'm sure that we will come back to this

 3     issue next week.

 4             All in all, I believe that you must have about ten hours left.  I

 5     don't have the exact time left.  If we need to continue the week after

 6     next week, well, that's a possibility, if you haven't finished yet.  But

 7     altogether, we are counting on the 36 hours that you asked for, and

 8     you've used up 26 hours so far, so you have 10 left.

 9             We'll reconvene on Monday at 2.15 p.m.  Thank you.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of May,

12                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.