1 Wednesday, 9 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today is Wednesday. Let me
13 first greet you, Witness, and I'll greet the accused, the Defence
14 counsel, Ms. West, and Mr. Scott, and the rest of their team, and my
15 greetings to all the people assisting us.
16 The Praljak Defence has the floor for their questions.
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
18 we should like to ask that you allow General Praljak to cross-examine
19 this witness, since we're dealing with questions that are limited to the
20 various locations around Mostar and in Mostar, and the witness mentioned
21 some of them, like Bijelo Polje and others. And as you know, Praljak is
22 from the region, so he knows all those places very well, and in that
23 sense has special knowledge of the subject. So it will be far easier for
24 the two of them to communicate.
25 Just to inform you, we have 15 minutes, roughly, plus 5 minutes
1 from the Prlic Defence. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
4 Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
5 WITNESS: BOZO PERIC
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak:
8 Q. [Interpretation] And good morning to you, too, Mr. Peric.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I'm going to show you some photographs first and some videotapes.
11 But before I do that, would you answer this question: In the northern
12 districts of Mostar, Vrapcici, and Bijelo Polje, from the time that the
13 war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, 1995, to the present
14 day, has any -- have any important buildings been built, or roads, or
15 factories, or dams, or high-rise buildings? So during all that time, has
16 anything essentially changed in the area?
17 A. General, sir, after the war in 1996 and from that time onwards,
18 along the M-17 road a bridge has been rebuilt which was destroyed across
19 the Bijela River
20 And as for the various buildings, only a market-place has been built,
21 three or four supermarkets or market-places.
22 Q. Mr. Peric, we haven't seen one another for quite some time, and
23 I'm sure, if the Judges would allow us, we'd have a friendly chat. But
24 over the next 20 minutes, I should like to ask you to just answer my
25 questions, because we're not really interested in market-places and the
2 Now, the Bijela Bridge
3 document and saw that the BH Army had taken control of the bridge in
4 April 1993. Now, to the best of your knowledge, up until the end of the
5 conflict and the Washington Accords, did it ever lose control of the
6 bridge? That's my first question.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And do you know that one section of the bridge could be used
9 until October 1993, when we won't say who and how the other half of the
10 bridge was destroyed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. One lane was in order; the other wasn't.
13 Now look at 3D --
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we have 3D03789 put up
15 on our screens, please. 3D03789 is the number, and 3D43-1385, which is
16 the last of the three photographs I've provided. And I didn't manage to
17 go through these photographs with the previous witness because of lack of
18 time. So it's not this one; it's the next one. This is 789, that's
19 right, but may I have 1385 as the next photograph, and those are the last
20 digits. 3D03789, and the number of the photograph itself is 3D43-1385.
21 What can I do now? 3D43-1385. Here it is, yes.
22 Q. Is that something that we call the Bijela Bridge
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell me, on the assumption that the bridge was destroyed,
1 on the assumption, I say, this road going the round-about route, and it
2 was constructed when the bridge was constructed, is it open to traffic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you mark the bridge and the road? You can put a "1" by the
5 bridge and a "2" for the road running down this bay, around this bay.
6 THE REGISTRAR: We have a little problem with the SMART board, so
7 if there's a hard copy that you have in your possession, we can use that.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I had hoped, at
9 the beginning of this trial, that we would have large maps to put up on
10 an easel for this trial, but there we go.
11 MR. KOVACIC: If the Usher would be so kind to take the map from
12 Mr. Praljak.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And just take a look at where the road to the left leads, and was
15 that open to cars? It wasn't an asphalt road, but could cars pass that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So number 1 for the Bijela Bridge
19 going around the bay; and number 3, the other road to the left in the
20 direction of the upper left-hand corner.
21 A. [Marks]
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The witness can draw around the
23 road using his felt-tip pen, so we can see it properly. That's right.
24 And then place a number there, please, Witness.
25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, where does that road lead to, towards Jasenjani or where?
3 A. To Glogova.
4 Q. Glogova, that's correct. Now place your signature and the date
5 on that map.
6 A. [Marks]
7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, might I
8 request that you take into account the fact that we're now dealing with
9 maps and it's a rather lengthy process, so as far as my time goes,
10 perhaps you could be indulgent.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have an
12 IC number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
14 Page 3 of document 3D03789, as marked by the witness, shall be
15 given Exhibit IC01148. Thank you, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next I'd like 3D03791
17 pulled up, please. 3D03791, the first of those maps. 001 are the last
19 Q. Witness, what do we see here, just briefly?
20 A. A panorama of the northern access to Mostar.
21 Q. Very well.
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next map, please, 002.
23 Q. Could you mark "Vrapcici" and "Bijelo Polje" with arrows,
24 number 1 for Vrapcici and 2 for Bijelo Polje?
25 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, General. May I remind you again that
1 we have a problem with the SMART Board. So if you have a hard copy, we
2 can place it on the ELMO and we can mark it. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Bozo, have you got a copy of that picture?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give my copy to the
6 witness, and that can be put on the ELMO. It has to be put on the ELMO.
7 There's a technical problem, you see. No? Oh, it's okay now. Fine.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you now mark Vrapcici with an arrow, and another one for
10 Bijelo Polje? So number 1, Vrapcici; number 2, Bijelo Polje.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, but you can't see the whole of Bijelo Polje.
14 Q. That's fine, thank you. Now indicate
15 Bradina [as interpreted] Hill.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And place a "3" there.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. And now we need just your signature there.
20 A. [Marks]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, Registrar,
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 3D44-0002, as marked by the
24 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01149. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next map, please. The same
1 number, but now it's 003. Here it is.
2 Q. Witness, my question is as follows: Behind Gradina Hill, yeah,
3 Gradina Hill, towards Streliste, you can see that on this map, was there
4 a road that was open, and does it still exist today; and if so, would you
5 mark it on the map, please, and put a number 1 by it?
6 A. It existed before, it exists today, and it's open to all types of
8 Q. Just mark it so we can see it.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And your signature.
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour
14 Judge Antonetti.
15 Q. Could you show us where the road emerges on the other side of
16 that hill there?
17 A. It goes upwards, where we conducted training sessions during the
19 Q. And towards Vrapcici?
20 A. You can't see that on this map.
21 Q. Never mind. Just show us the general direction.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Just draw the arrow down towards Vrapcici, behind the
24 hill where the road descends.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. That's right.
2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And may I have an
3 IC number for these maps, now, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
6 3D44-0003, as marked by the witness, shall be given
7 Exhibit IC01150. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is it correct, sir, that during the war, protected from any
10 possible HVO positions, both civilians and members of the BH Army could
11 pass through that way?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now may we have the next
15 map, which is 0005. Yes, that's the picture.
16 Q. What do you see on that image, Witness? Do you see Hum Hill, for
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Put a number 1 by Hum Hill.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. My question to you is this: The BH Army positions on the left
22 bank of the Neretva River
23 they mirror images; that is to say, do the two sides see the same thing?
24 What the BH Army sees is what the HVO sees? You have hills on one side
25 and hills on the other side; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you were in Mostar. After the two sides separated in
3 Mostar, could you, from any of the HVO positions, see the Neretva banks
4 controlled by the BH Army from any point?
5 A. Do you mean Mostar or the broader region around Mostar?
6 Q. Only that part of Mostar that was under the supervision and
7 control of the BH Army, not what we can see from Hum Hill to the left and
9 A. You couldn't see the Neretva River
10 point at all, from the buildings or anywhere else.
11 Q. Thank you. So put your signature to that photograph, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And may I have an
14 IC number.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. A copy of 3D44-0005, as marked
17 by the witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01151. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And now under the same number, 3D -- it's still 3D, and it's
20 03791, that's the general number, and the picture itself is 0011.
21 Mr. Peric, use a number 1 to mark what you see as the electric
22 plant here.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And tell us which one that is.
25 A. That is the hydroelectric power-plant of Mostar.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you mark the road to Sarajevo, please, the main
2 road, number 2.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. If the Neretva River
5 that be? The left-hand side of the plant, after the clashes with the
6 BH Army, whose possession was it in throughout the clashes?
7 A. [Marks] it was under the HVO, as far as the dam. It was
8 throughout the clashes, as far as the dam to the north. The houses you
9 can see over there were BH Army-held. The village is called Rastani.
10 Q. Move along the Neretva and then the left-hand side of the river,
11 what about that side? Was that BH Army-controlled?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That's what I wanted to know. No, the other side. That was the
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And then on the other side, who controlled that?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Everything that we can see to the right of the road and all that,
19 after the clashes on the 30th of June, who controlled that area?
20 A. The BH Army.
21 Q. And now 0012. Please sign the map.
22 A. [Marks]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 3D44-0011, as marked by the
25 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01152. Thank you, Your Honours.
1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 0012, please.
2 Q. Witness, what about the front part of this image that we see;
3 isn't that the access road to Vrapcici, which begins when
4 Bradina [as interpreted] stops?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, point out the road that is not the M-17, which goes behind
7 Gradina Hill. And then you see that stone over there? The colour
8 photographs are much better than the black-and-white ones. I'm not sure
9 why we don't have colour photographs. Can you mark that with a number 1,
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And then the other road that you see over there, north of the
13 houses here -- no, no, no, here. You have a look at the map, and look at
14 the road. Oh, right, we have a colour photograph now. It's perfect.
15 Look at your screen. There's a better view there. The screen.
16 A. Yes, I see it, I see it.
17 Q. All right. Mark it, please, the road that you saw.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Fantastic. Number 1 for the first road, number 2 for the other.
20 Your signature, please, and an IC number.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please, Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: 3D44-0012, as marked by the witness, shall be
24 given Exhibit IC01153. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 0018, please, our next map.
1 Q. It's a photograph facing north, the access road to Bijelo Polje.
2 My question: Parallel or not to the main road to Sarajevo, M-17, are
3 there not many roads such as this one? Is it not possible to reach each
4 single house in Vrapcici and Bijelo Polje by car?
5 A. Indeed, it is.
6 Q. Sign the map, please.
7 A. [Marks]
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And could I have an IC
9 number, please.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Actually, there's no reason to sign this map,
11 because it has not been marked in any way. There's no damage.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Put a number 1 on the road, then, and tell us roughly where this
14 road is headed to.
15 A. [Marks] Kuti Livac, north of Mostar, and then on to --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear anything that
17 the witness said because the accused is chafing with his documents
18 against the microphone, the microphone creating too much noise.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [No interpretation]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It goes north of Mostar and ends up
22 right on the way out of the Bijelo Polje depression, just outside Prenj
23 and Salahovac.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have an IC number,
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 3D44-0018, as marked by the
4 witness, shall be given Exhibit IC01154. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll be showing a
6 video-clip from Google now.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear the number
8 because the witness coughed.
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D03793. Could that be
10 played, please.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this the power-plant in Mostar that you indicated in the other
14 photograph, Mr. Peric?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where exactly is Vrapcici?
17 A. To the right, in the same direction that the image is moving.
18 Q. Put a number 1 there. Oh, I see, you can't put a number 1 there.
19 All right, let's move on, then. How many parallel roads are
20 there? Many - right? - next to M-17.
21 A. Yes, quite many of those.
22 Q. All right. Let's move on, please.
23 We are now in Potoci.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Move on, please. Move on,
25 please. Was that the end? Now the other one, please.
1 Q. Now the continuation, sir. The Bijela Bridge
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please indicate the roads that one can take in the area, and tell
5 us where they take you to.
6 A. How am I going to show that on this Google imaging device?
7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] All right, all right.
8 He'll describe everything in the end. Just let the map glide on. What
9 can I do about this? Yes, yes, everything can be seen there.
10 Q. Can you see the road to Glogova on this map?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it an asphalt road?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can cars take that road as well?
15 A. Yes, they can.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. Does this move on to
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Look at the road to the left. Is that an asphalt road?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Any cars there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That's as much as I have
25 on this.
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just interject a question.
2 Witness, have you, yourself, driven a car over any of these roads
3 or all of them?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have taken most of these roads.
5 But when I look at the photograph that I have here, the northern-most
6 section is one that I've never taken.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And yet you say that it is negotiable with cars?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about what the general
9 asked. Is it negotiable? I said, Yes.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And what kind of cars; any car, lorries, big
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All-terrain vehicles, jeep
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That means, negatively, not a normal car with
15 two-wheel drive, and even less a normal truck or lorry for transportation
16 of goods?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trucks, but not the really heavy
18 ones. The ones that you, in Europe
19 The TAM
20 long-distance trucks could not take that road. A tractor with a trailer
21 could take that road as well. A small Mercedes, a really nice, expensive
22 one, could never take that road.
23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But they would have to be four-wheel drive?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I was trying to
25 say, all-terrain vehicles or TAM
1 three and a half tons; tractors with a trailer, also, up to three or four
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, to be
5 perfectly safe, the other video that we last saw was 3D03794, which is
6 the section between Bijela -- the Bijela Bridge
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please listen
8 carefully to my question. This is an important question, and I want to
9 be sure that you understand the question. And I will listen to your
10 answer carefully.
11 It seems that the M-17 was sometimes under the fire of the HVO in
12 Rastani. At least that's what we've been told. This being the case,
13 could you tell us whether a Muslim civilian who would want to leave
14 East Mostar by foot, be it a child, a woman, a man, or BH Army soldier --
15 so I would like to know whether this person could take the pass that we
16 have seen on this Google imaging device, so could it take these paths
17 that we've seen from Jablanica -- going to Jablanica --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- without being hit by HVO
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was certainly possible for no
22 one to be harmed by infantry weapons. As for artillery, no one was
23 entirely safe from artillery weapons in Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for
24 the infantry, weapons that the HVO was using, it was impossible to see
25 those people from there; therefore, they couldn't be targeted. The road
1 between Mostar and Jablanica was a safe one for them. It wasn't a very
2 comfortable road, like it is today, but it was safe, and one could take
3 it with no trouble at all and still get there.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question on this
6 Could you tell us whether a civilian or a BH Army soldier could
7 leave East Mostar to go to Jablanica?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the BH Army control, they
9 could have. I'm not sure if they actually took advantage of that, but
10 the possibility was there. Each of the civilians who wanted to leave
11 were free to leave. I'm not sure if their own military authorities
12 allowed them to, though.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 General Praljak, you have used up 28 minutes. You must finish,
15 because Ms. West has two hours, there might be some redirect, and we're
16 running short of time. I'm only putting essential questions to this
17 witness. Otherwise, I just refrain from putting questions.
18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be
19 fair to at least grant a total of three minutes because of the technical
20 difficulty experienced during the examination. It wasn't our fault.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have three minutes, so use
22 them wisely.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. First question: Who controlled the access to Dreznica right
25 across from the Bijelo Bridge
1 A. The BH Army.
2 Q. Secondly, you said a Mercedes couldn't negotiate that road. What
3 about a tractor? What about a cargo truck up to four tons or, for
4 example, a Renault 4?
5 A. I've listed all of those, and the answer is yes.
6 Q. Thirdly, would it not be an obligation for the army to maintain a
7 road that was important for them?
8 A. It goes without saying.
9 Q. My last question: You were asked yesterday by Mr. Stojic's
10 counsel: Did the Serbs target Mostar and the general area? And you
11 said, As they saw fit, or, As they liked. Sometimes they liked us better
12 and sometimes the other side, something to that effect.
13 Sir, throughout the war, as far as you know, did the Serbs target
14 the left-hand riverbank and the right-hand riverbank of the Neretva River
15 and the general Mostar area whenever they liked?
16 Yes, there's some sort of music playing. I'm not sure what it
17 is. I have no idea what that is.
18 Were the Serbs, in fact, not firing whenever they liked, and,
19 sure enough, they weren't short of ammunition, were they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about after the clashes between the HVO and the BH Army?
22 Did they not continue to, A, aid the BH Army and, B, target BH positions
23 in and around Mostar all at the same time?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Peric, I have no
1 further questions. I thank you for coming here and answering these
3 Your Honours, I thank you very much.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just set
5 the record straight, General Praljak asked a question: Under whose
6 control was the territory near the Bijela Bridge? The question and
7 answer were recorded on page 17, line 11. The question misstates "across
8 the territory," and there was no mention of the Bijela Bridge
9 this is a very important issue, and I think we should understand what
10 exactly the general asked.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this will be short. I
12 didn't want to do this, but because of the appeals judgement in the
13 Dragomir Milosevic case, I have to put this question to you.
14 Let me ask the Usher to put on the screen 3D44-0001, the first
15 map we have in this document.
16 Sir, we have this map on the screen. You see Mostar. Do you see
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I see hills on this
20 map. Could you tell us whether there were any Serbian positions on these
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All these hills that you can
23 see, there were VRS forces there.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're telling us,
25 and this is now on the transcript, that the Serbian forces were
1 positioned on the hills that we see on this picture. At the foot of this
2 hill is Mostar; is that it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does this mean that the Serbian
5 forces could fire with artillery on Mostar from these hills, either from
6 Mostar east -- on East Mostar or on West Mostar?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could open fire on any part.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I have no other
10 Ms. West.
11 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
12 Your Honours. Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
13 The Prosecution is ready. If we could just have a moment to
14 distribute the binders.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the meanwhile, Ms. Alaburic,
16 in order to save time, we've just been told that next week's witness is
17 sick and will not be able to appear. Therefore, there will be no hearing
18 next week?
19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was informed
20 yesterday that our witness is not feeling well and that he won't be able
21 to come in, so I tried to contact some of our future witnesses, ones that
22 were scheduled for January next year. But, unfortunately, yesterday I
23 wasn't able to have somebody agree to come in on Thursday or Friday at
24 such short notice. So for all intents and purposes, we'll be left
25 without a witness next week.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the last
2 hearing for 2009, then.
3 Ms. West, you have the floor.
4 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Peric.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. My name is Kim West. I'm a lawyer with the Office of the
9 Prosecution. I'm going to ask you questions this morning, and hopefully
10 we'll finish today.
11 And I'd like to start where we left off in regard to the area
12 north of East Mostar, and in particular the roads that Mr. Praljak asked
13 you about. I'm going to read to you some testimony from former
14 witnesses, from Milan Gorjanc, who was the first Petkovic Defence
15 witness. He was asked about this very issue, and I'm going to read to
16 you what he said about the area north of Mostar.
17 MS. WEST: And this is from transcript page 46145. It's lines 5
18 through 10.
19 Q. And he said --
20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I'd
21 just like us to bear in mind that Witness Gorjanc was an expert witness,
22 not a fact witness, so he's really not somebody who, in the 1990s, was in
23 the area himself. So please bear that in mind and how far his testimony
24 is valuable with respect to the facts that we're dealing with.
25 MS. WEST: I thank Ms. Alaburic for those comments, and I hope
1 you will bear that in mind when you consider the IC list for Mr. Gorjanc
2 because that's the very argument that the Prosecution makes as to why
3 those exhibits should be excluded.
4 But, nonetheless, the testimony of Mr. Gorjanc, in which he says:
5 "To the north, where the main reserves of the BH Army were, there
6 were two roads leading. One was down the Neretva River Valley
7 most probably under fire, under artillery fire, HVO artillery fire. The
8 other route took one across a mountainous area, the western slopes of
9 Mount Prenj
10 by the HVO."
11 Q. Sir, in regard to his comments, he talks about two roads, the
12 first being the road down the Neretva River Valley
13 me that that's the M-17 through the valley?
14 A. The main road -- the main asphalt road in Bosnia-Herzegovina is
15 that road running through the Neretva River Valley
16 So the M-17 was used before the war, it was used during the war, and it's
17 used today. So I see nothing contentious there.
18 Now, were there any other parallel roads? Yes, there were
19 several, not just one.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go back to my question, which was: Is the
21 Neretva River Valley the M-17? I understand your answer to be, Yes. Is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so when you were answering questions from General Praljak in
25 regard to the Bijelo Bay
1 and then you went -- you continued on, is that the -- strike that.
2 When you were speaking about the Bijelo Bay
3 bridge was out, and so you drew a line around the bay and then continued
4 on, is that bridge and that main road, the Neretva River Valley
6 A. Yes, you can see the M-17 clearly. There are two or three
7 curves, but otherwise it's a straight road.
8 Q. Okay. So I understand that your answer to that question is, Yes.
9 Then would you agree with Mr. Gorjanc that the M-17, through most of this
10 period of time, was under HVO artillery fire?
11 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that.
12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but
13 Witness Gorjanc never said anything of the kind. He was asked -- Gorjanc
14 was asked for just one section of the road, and Witness Gorjanc clearly
15 let it be known that it was questionable -- that his information was
16 questionable as to what could be done and what couldn't. Witness Gorjanc
17 said that theoretically you could target a certain region with the
18 artillery, theoretically. He didn't say that something was under fire or
19 not. And Witness Gorjanc doesn't know what the BH Army and HVO positions
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam West, in order to make
22 sure that we don't have these useless objections, because we know exactly
23 what was said by each and every one and we spent hours -- hundreds of
24 hours, thousands of hours, pouring over the case; so in order to make
25 sure that we don't run into objections, when you refer to someone's
1 testimony, say, He said this on this page. And read the -- read what the
2 witness said word by word. That way, there's no objection. And then put
3 your question. But as you saw, systematically the Defence raises its
4 it's feet whenever it sees a weakness in your questions, and we waste
6 As Judges, we are here to control how the hearing is conducted.
7 We have to make sure that no time is wasted. So my piece of advice is to
8 quote word by word what the witness said. That way, we can no objection
9 from the Defence. Otherwise, you know, if they object, it's an abuse of
10 procedure, and then they would be sanctioned. So they won't object if
11 you quote verbatim.
12 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 And as I said earlier, it's transcript page 46145, lines 5
14 through 10, and Mr. Gorjanc said:
15 "To the north, where the main reserves of the BH Army were, there
16 were two roads leading. One was down the Neretva River Valley
17 most probably under artillery fire, HVO artillery fire. The other route
18 took one across a mountainous area, the western slopes of Mount Prenj
19 on towards Jablanica. That route was not under fire by the HVO."
20 And that is the quote from Mr. Gorjanc.
21 Q. Mr. Peric, I now want to talk about the other route and one that
22 you talked about as well. You spoke earlier about an access road after
23 the Bradina [sic] Hill. You said there was an access road from Vrapcici
24 which begins where Bradina [sic] stops. Do you remember that testimony
25 15 minutes ago?
1 A. I don't think I mentioned Bradina. Bradina is between -- lies
2 between Sarajevo
3 Q. Well, let me share with you some testimony from the
4 Petkovic Defence's second witness. This is Witness Bozo Pavlovic, and
5 speaking about this very same subject matter. This is transcript 46866
6 from November 16th, line 17 through 25, and this is a question from
7 Judge Antonetti. And the question was:
8 "You are saying that the M-17 was under fire or was exposed to
9 fire. Very well. But was there another road that would not have been
10 under HVO fire that could have been used?"
11 And the witness's answer was:
12 "I've just said, Your Honours, that I think that there was a road
13 from the Zalik neighbourhood towards Vrapcici."
14 Judge Antonetti:
15 "You confirm this?
16 The witness:
17 "That's the other road."
18 Mr. Peric, are you familiar with this road, a road from Zalik
19 towards Vrapcici?
20 A. Yes, I am familiar with that. But you made a mistake. You said
21 "Bradina," not "Gradina." Bradina is another hill towards Sarajevo
22 there's Bradina and Gradina. And that is why I wasn't sure what you were
23 asking. So it's Gradina with a "G" and not Bradina with a "B."
24 Q. Thank you for that. And the Gradina Hill that you spoke about
25 earlier, is this hill located in the vicinity of this road from the Zalik
1 neighbourhood towards Vrapcici?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And so when you answered questions earlier from Mr. Praljak, it
4 was this road that began in this neighbourhood that went to Vrapcici of
5 which you were speaking; correct?
6 A. I was speaking about -- well, answering General Praljak's
7 questions whether there was a road from the shooting range downwards that
8 you could communicate. So this was sheltered with -- by Gradina Hill.
9 You couldn't see it because it was sheltered.
10 Q. I would like you to look at this road, and I would like you to
11 look at your binder. You have one right in front of you. If you can go
12 to P11145, and this is a map. And I believe everyone will have it in
13 colour. 11145, and this exhibit has two parts. There's both a map and
14 then a second piece of paper with it as well.
15 MS. WEST: And, Mr. Usher, if I can ask you to take the map out
16 and take that second piece of paper so the witness can work with both
17 pieces of paper. Thank you. Very good.
18 Q. Sir, I think we all understand that you're very familiar with
19 this area, so I'd like to tell you that this is a map of the Mostar area
20 and north. And the light blue line beginning in the Zalik neighbourhood
21 that Witness Pavlovic spoke about is depicted on this map. And he said
22 that this road went from Zalik to Vrapcici and on to Jablanica, or this
23 route did that. I'd like to ask you some questions about this.
24 And for everyone -- to help everyone understand, and for you to
25 understand as well, my questions are going to mirror the piece of paper
1 that's located with this map, and we're going to start in Zalik.
2 Would you agree with me, sir, that the first 500 metres of this
3 route out of Zalik towards Vrapcici is a tarmac road and that a truck and
4 a car could use that road?
5 A. I know what you're asking me, but I can't find my way on this
6 map, where Zalik is and so on. It's too detailed for me to be able to
7 find my way.
8 Q. Nonetheless, sir, you're familiar with the area, correct, from
9 your own experience?
10 A. Yes, yes, I am familiar, but there are too many details on this
11 map, it's too dense.
12 Q. Well, then let's focus on my questions. In regard to this road
13 out of Zalik towards Vrapcici, would you agree with me that the first
14 500 metres is a road -- a tarmac road that you can put a car on; a car
15 can easily run on the first 500 metres?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But the second 500 metres, at least during the period of 1993,
18 the tarmac road becomes a narrow path which you cannot put a car or a
19 truck on; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then the next 500 metres of that road becomes a very, very
22 narrow path, and it's particularly along a cliff, which ropes were used
23 to secure and support the users, and actually -- strike that. That ropes
24 were used to help people climb up. So it would be the next 500 metres?
25 A. As to that stretch, I can't say. But it's called a donkey track
1 and -- or a horse track, and it's wide enough for a horse, bearing a
2 load, to pass by. And there are paths and tracks like that all over the
3 hills there.
4 Q. The next 18 kilometres of this road from Zalik to Vrapcici, now
5 this -- you might be able to see this on the map. This is the road
6 through Vrapcici. Do you see that along the light blue line?
7 A. Yes, I can see.
8 Q. And Kuli Livac? Excuse my pronunciation. That's the next
9 village on that blue line?
10 A. Yes, it's my village; I know it well.
11 Q. You were born there; correct? Okay. And as we continue up that
12 blue line, we go through a number of more villages, Potoci, and it will
13 continue on all the way to Lojpur. Now, this part of this road is
14 18 kilometres, and it's asphalted. And you can -- as you were saying
15 earlier, you can use a truck on this part of the road, correct, or cars
16 on this part of the road?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. But once we get all the way up to Lojpur, L-o-j-p-u-r, and we can
19 see this on the map, once we get there, going forward, the next
20 20 kilometres, would you agree with me, is a very difficult mountain
21 path, and it's only accessible by foot; by fit, trained people; that the
22 elderly and the maybe young children would have difficulty going on this
23 particular 20 kilometres? Would you agree that's correct?
24 A. No, I can't.
25 Q. Have you ever been on this part?
1 A. The village of Lojpuri
2 It's in Bosnia
3 Q. Sir, if you look, sir, at the map, and look on the blue line, and
4 if you look at the area that says "Lojpur," can you find that?
5 A. Lojpur is one thing, Lojpuri is another. They are two different
6 villages, and Lojpuri is not in Herzegovina
7 Q. So if you go to the map and you look for the village that's
8 spelled L-o-j-p-u-r - and I think you can find it; and if you can't,
9 I can help you. Do you see that there?
10 A. Lojpur [Indicates].
11 Q. I see that you're pointing to it right now. Do you see that,
13 A. [No verbal response]
14 Q. You have to verbally say, Yes.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. At that point, going north on this light blue line, would you
17 agree with me that the next -- the following 20 kilometres is a very
18 difficult mountain path, would you agree with that, where no cars can go?
19 A. I don't agree that it's impassable over that length. A much
20 shorter distance was impassable, as far as I remember. The other one was
21 from the village of Glogova
22 asphalt road again, the other side. Now, I've never been that way
24 Q. All right. Do I understand that you've never been on this path;
25 is that right?
1 A. From Glogova to Glogosnica, no. But from the village that you've
2 mentioned, Lojpuri, is the village of Ravno
3 I did go that way by car, a small car, a Golf-type car, but a bus could
4 go that way, too, a big one.
5 Q. Okay. And when I asked you whether it was a very difficult path,
6 you said that:
7 "I don't agree that it's impassable over that length. A much
8 shorter distance was impassable."
9 So you would agree with me there is a distance that is impassable
10 to cars, whether it be 20 kilometres or less?
11 A. I can agree only from Glogova to Glogosnica, that part of the
12 road as being impassable for large -- to large vehicles.
13 Q. Fine. Let's talk about Glogosnica, and that would be the next
14 2 kilometres. It's correct that is an asphalt road that cars can use;
16 A. It's a road which took you from Jablanica to that place,
17 Glogosnica, and that road is an asphalt road from Donja Jablanica.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the interest of time,
19 Witness, do you know what the jeep is, since you were a soldier?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. So my question will
22 be very simple. Using a jeep, no matter what the state of the road may
23 be, it was possible to go from Mostar to Jablanica? You see, that's all.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the conflict in 1993, it
25 was possible. When the conflicts broke out with the BH Army on the
1 30th of June, 1993, for a period of time you could not go there in a
2 jeep. You had to leave one vehicle and move into another vehicle and
3 then continue on your journey.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why was it not possible?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't possible because during
6 that time they hadn't capacitated that road for car traffic.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as I understood it, the
8 whole way shown to us by Ms. West was a part that was under BH Army
9 control. Wasn't it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was completely under their
11 control, deep into their territory.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So completely under their
13 control. Assume I am a BH Army soldier. I get on board a jeep in
14 East Mostar. Can I go to Jablanica through -- using these roads or
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could go that way just for the
17 first few months, and then you had to go a certain distance on foot and
18 then get into another car, another vehicle. Now, when this road was
19 joined up, then you didn't have to do that anymore.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that the answer was
22 translated properly on page 30, line 21. The witness said:
23 "You could pass by on that road, but for the first few months..."
24 And then the sentence continues. This way, it would appear that
25 you could just pass through during the first few months.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me return to my
2 question, and listen carefully, please.
3 The part of the road that was shown by Ms. West, was it under
4 BH Army control?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second question: I am a
7 BH Army soldier. I get into a jeep in East Mostar. Can I, using the
8 roads or paths controlled by the BH Army, get to Jablanica?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the first few months of the
10 conflict, that is to say, from June, I think, until August, you couldn't
11 go that way in the same jeep. Afterwards, you could, you could go that
12 whole distance in one jeep without having to cross into something else.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why could I not drive the same
14 jeep all the way through?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there was a small section
16 which was impassable to jeeps and larger vehicles, so you had to go a
17 distance on foot and then continue in another vehicle on your way to
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
20 Please proceed.
21 MS. WEST:
22 Q. And, sir, according to your testimony, there was a second section
23 as well that was impassable to vehicles; correct? You had described it
24 earlier. I said it was 20 kilometres, but you said it was less. So
25 there was a second part that was impassable; correct?
1 A. The part that I know was the shortest segment, a kilometre and a
2 half, up to two perhaps. I'm not positive about the length.
3 Q. Sir, look again at the map, and please look for the part that
4 General Praljak spoke to you about, the Bijelo Bay. Do you see that on
5 the map?
6 A. I can't see anything here.
7 MS. WEST: Your Honour, may I approach the witness? Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course.
9 MS. WEST:
10 Q. And, sir, now do you see the Bijelo Bay
11 General Praljak about?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And through that bay, you see a black line. That represents the
14 M-17 bridge, right, the Bijelo Bridge
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you indicated that there was a period of time where that
17 bridge was down, and you could go around that area and still go north.
18 But for the purposes of this map, would you agree with me, at least, that
19 that black line going through that area is the M-17?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Can you circle the area of the Bijelo Bay, please?
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And can you initial this map and date it, please, or sign it and
24 date it?
25 A. [Marks]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want an IC number?
2 MS. WEST: Please.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, P11145, as marked by the witness,
5 shall be given Exhibit IC01155. Thank you, Your Honours.
6 MS. WEST:
7 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on to a different subject.
8 And you had spoken about the morning of May 9th when you were at
9 the HVO headquarters, and you indicated that you heard shooting. And
10 this is page 50 of the daily transcript, and I'm summarising: That you
11 ran out to the -- in a hall, and there were two other duty officers
12 there; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that morning, you called Petkovic. You couldn't reach him in
15 his car, so then you called Grude; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You also said, on page 51-52, that you telephoned the duty
18 officer in the South-Eastern Command, and he told you that the ABiH had
19 attacked; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on page 61, you said all three duty officers called, and I
23 "... all those people whom we were able to reach by phone."
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it's true that you said there was an unwritten rule that
2 everyone should come in, and within an hour a number of people were
3 coming in to the headquarters; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So, Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that that morning, on
6 May 9th, there was definitely information flowing among people? There
7 were a lot of people there, and you were all talking, and at least you
8 and the two other duty officers were making several phone calls. Would
9 that accurately describe the morning of May 9th?
10 A. It's true I made some phone calls. It's true people came. They
11 were probably woken up by the sounds of shooting, just as I was.
12 Q. Nonetheless -- strike that. You also testified that you had no
13 knowledge, and this is the term Ms. Alaburic used -- she said
14 "evacuations." You had no knowledge of the evacuations going on. Is
15 that your testimony, is sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm going to read to you some testimony from another witness in
18 this case. This is Zlatan Buljko, and this is transcript 19845,
19 beginning on --
20 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please, just a
21 minute. Objection.
22 As far as I remember, Witness Zlatan Buljko was supposed to be
23 back for cross-examination, but then the OTP didn't call him. They
24 dropped him. At this very minute, I can't find the transcript reference,
25 but I will do my best if you'd like me to.
1 MS. WEST: Mr. President, whether --
2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is entirely
3 true. I would just like to join Ms. Tomanovic's objection, and I think
4 all the other Defence teams agree.
5 [Overlapping speakers]
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter understood nothing because two
7 speakers were talking at the same time. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it is true that he did not
9 complete his testimony, the OTP has nevertheless a document, which is the
10 statement that we have in front of us, that can be used to test the
11 credibility of the witness. That's all. That's the rule.
12 Do ask your question.
13 Yes, Ms. Tomanovic.
14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the Prosecutor is trying
15 to use the transcript of a testimony -- of the testimony of that witness
16 and not the statement. At least that's how they started out. If I'm
17 wrong, I do apologise.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 And, yes, this is the transcript, and this is 19845, and it's
21 line 14 --
22 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the OTP should not be
23 allowed to use the transcript. They dropped that witness. The witness
24 was never back for cross-examination. I will find the exact reference
25 where the Prosecutor said that they were dropping this witness and that
1 he would not be recalled for cross-examination. We cannot be allowed to
2 use this transcript.
3 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, with your leave, the Defence for
4 Bruno Stojic adopt the objection put forward in this matter. It is
5 entirely inappropriate and highly prejudicial for the Prosecution to be
6 allowed to cherry-pick evidence in this manner.
7 They had the option of calling a witness, and the evidence could
8 be heard in its entirety, not partial evidence, not the best bits of the
9 evidence, but evidence that has been subjected to cross-examination.
10 That has not been the case, and they must be estopped from relying upon
11 untested, unchallenged evidence which they had the capacity of putting
12 before the Bench in a proper manner that would allow Your Honours to
13 assess it in its totality.
14 Your Honours, for those reasons it is my respectful submission
15 that the objection must be sustained.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to discuss this
17 matter on the Bench. I have my view, but I want to check it out with my
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After discussing the matter,
21 the Trial Chamber is of the view that to the extent that the witness said
22 in court certain things, even if they were not cross-examined, somebody
23 under oath said something, made a statement. Therefore, the Prosecution
24 is entitled to use such statements, but only in order to assess the
25 credibility of the witness's statement. But the transcript, as such, is
1 not going to be admitted. There it is.
2 Ms. West, do ask your question.
3 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. If I may just add.
4 What I said on the record, I want that to be reflected. The transcript
5 date is the 22nd of January, 2008. The page is 26463. The Prosecutor
6 asserts that they were about to drop this witness altogether, just to
7 make the record complete. Thank you.
8 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, with your leave, very briefly just for
9 the record, I do want it to be recorded that the Defence for Mr. Stojic
10 expresses its disquiet about this development. It is not appropriate, in
11 our respectful submission, for evidence to be assessed through the prism
12 only of testimony of another witness. The proper form is for evidence to
13 be tested by the individual Defence teams representing the individuals in
14 the box. That has been denied us. We have been denied the material
15 possibility to test that evidence. And to only look at -- or only to
16 assess the evidence through the testimony of this witness is, perhaps, a
17 partial, at best, and incomplete scrutiny to important evidence that the
18 Prosecution seeks to get in through the back door now.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: To avoid all misunderstanding, what Ms. West has
20 the intention to do and what, in the view of the Chamber, it can do is
21 put to test the credibility of this witness here today; but there can be,
22 of course, no question of putting to test the statements that we have in
23 the transcript of the untested witness, and the Chamber will definitely
24 not regard what has been said by the other witness as an element of
25 evidence. It will not be proof. It will either be not admitted at all
1 or only for the purposes of challenging the credibility of the witness.
2 And for that purpose, we have, according to our rules set down on the
3 22nd of November, and we have left open the use of practically any kind
4 of document.
5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, so be it.
6 The difficulty, of course, that will be for Your Honours to
7 grapple with is: How is it possible to assess the credibility of this
8 witness through the statement whose credibility you are unable to assess?
9 It's putting the cart before the horse. You're seeking to establish --
10 or the Prosecution is seeking to establish the credibility of this
11 witness through evidence whose credibility you cannot properly assess.
12 That's the conundrum that the Defence -- that the Prosecution have to get
13 'round, and it's an issue that Your Honours have to grapple with at the
14 end of the day. And it may be easier, in my respectful submission,
15 simply to have asked the Prosecution to test the credibility of this
16 witness through admissible evidence that has been tested or is capable of
17 being tested, in fairness to the Defence.
18 Your Honours, I'll say no more. I'm grateful.
19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a single
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are wasting time, because I
22 don't even know what Ms. West intends to ask. I don't even know what her
23 question is going to be. So now we are having a discussion. It's
24 intellectually very interesting, but from a legal point of view, from a
25 judicial point of view, I don't even know what she's going to ask. It
1 may be that her question is totally irrelevant, and this will have been a
2 waste of time for nothing. Well, you will have enjoyed this discussion
3 on credibility, that's all.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If I may, since we are dealing
5 with the Petkovic Defence witness, I would like to say two things,
7 Firstly, if the testimony of a witness is never completed, if the
8 Prosecution drops a witness, then that witness's testimony does not
9 exist. A part of his testimony is not evidence. There is no document
10 that we could call Zlatan Buljko's evidence. That's the first sentence.
11 The other sentence is I'm just trying to rationalise and waste precious
12 time. That is why I'm not asking for leave to appeal this.
13 Nevertheless, we believe the Trial Chamber's ruling to be highly
14 contentious, and we believe it would merit an appeal.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Ms. West. Put your
16 question and then we'll see.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Peric, this is from a witness who was living in Belanovica at
19 the time, and he speaks about the night of 8 May. He said:
20 "That night, on 8th of May, thousands of vehicles from
21 Siroki Brijeg or Listica, as it used to be called, arrived in Mostar, and
22 looking at all of this from my window, I wondered where all of those cars
23 were going. And then there was a restaurant near my building, and I saw
24 that soldiers were gathering together by that restaurant, and they were
25 drinking, and I knew that something was going to happen."
1 Mr. Peric, on the night of 8 May, you were at HVO headquarters;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you aware of any soldiers or cars gathering in the city that
6 A. No.
7 Q. I'm going to read to you some testimony from Jovan Rakov, and
8 this is from 24th of January, 2007, transcript page 12894, starting
9 at 11. He said:
10 "At about 5.00 a.m.
11 lot of terrible fighting and shooting, and we thought, What's happening?
12 Nobody told us anything. We switched the radio on. There were some
13 proclamations which sort of said that an operation was underway by the
14 HVO and the police forces, and that members of the BH Army were asked to
16 And he indicates that he's paraphrasing:
17 "Members of the BH Army were asked to surrender, to hand over
18 their weapons, and to put white flags of surrender. And in the meantime,
19 songs -- patriotic songs were being played. You could hear them. And
20 then the wounded began coming in."
21 On that morning, did you turn on the radio?
22 A. No, no. I didn't need to. I heard none of the statements that
23 you've been mentioning, nor, indeed, did I see anything that would have
24 led me to switch on my radio or, indeed, turn on a TV set.
25 Q. Did you see any white flags hanging out of windows?
1 A. No, none.
2 Q. Okay. So it's your testimony, then, that on the night of May 8th
3 and the morning of May 9th, you didn't see any of this, you didn't hear
4 any of this.
5 Would you agree with me, sir, that on that morning, being at HVO
6 headquarters - you were in the center -- you were in the hub of activity
7 for the HVO - would you agree with me that being there and being a
8 specialist in communications, yet not seeing any of this, yet not hearing
9 of this, is at odds with one another?
10 A. What exactly do you mean? Did I hear anything about it on the
11 radio? Is that what you're asking me about? What does this have to do
12 with me being a communications expert? What could I possibly have used
13 my communications expertise for? There was no equipment in that office.
14 How on earth can you know what your investigators, for example, are doing
15 somewhere on the ground, unless they actually call to let you know?
16 There's no way you can know. I'm not --
17 Q. Sorry, excuse me. Mr. Peric, did you go outside? Did you look
18 out the window?
19 A. When the shooting began, is that when you mean, or do you mean
20 during the previous night?
21 Q. I mean on the morning of May 9th, did you actually go out and
22 hear anything, and see any people moving around, and see any white flags
23 coming out of windows? Did you see anything or hear anything like that?
24 A. I heard the sounds of shooting, and I tried to understand where
25 the shooting was coming from. But I saw no sheets hanging from the
1 windows. I saw no people moving about, apart from people running across
2 the road between buildings every now and then on their way to work. I
3 saw a colleague of mine run around and behind a building in which I was
4 working, but there were no sheets hanging from any of the windows out
6 MS. WEST: Mr. President, this might be a good time for a break.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to break for
8 20 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.
12 MS. WEST: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Peric, I just want to clarify a couple things in regard to
14 this path.
15 Earlier, Judge Antonetti asked you a question, on page 31,
16 line 11, and the question was:
17 "I'm a BH Army soldier. I get into a jeep in East Mostar.
18 Can I, using the roads or paths controlled by the BH Army, get to
20 And your answer was:
21 "For the first few months of the conflict, that is to say, from
22 June, I think, until August, you couldn't go that way in the same jeep.
23 Afterwards, you could, you could go that whole distance in one jeep
24 without having to cross in something else."
25 My question, sir, is: When you were speaking about June and
1 August, are you talking about 1992 or 1993?
2 A. 1993.
3 Q. And then when you said until August, you could go that way, but
4 afterward, you couldn't, what happened in August to change that?
5 A. That's when they had already broken through that part, making a
6 macadamised road surface to link it up with the road going across the
7 village of Ravni, Podgorani, across Livac, Vrapcici, Sutina, to Mostar.
8 Q. And how do you know that?
9 A. Well, I know that -- I know that that part of the road was used.
10 This was a section of the road that was broken through later, and they
11 were better supplied with ammunition, they attempted attacks, and that
12 was much better than from the 30th of June, or that month, roughly, until
14 Q. So the source of your information regarding that testimony is not
15 because you were, yourself, were on that road after August of 1993;
17 A. No, I didn't see it myself. I heard about it.
18 Q. And at least from May of 1993 until the beginning of 1994, you,
19 yourself, were never on this particular road that we're talking about?
20 A. On the road where the bypass was made, no, I wasn't ever there
21 during that period.
22 Q. We're going to change subjects, sir, and we're going to talk
23 about the details of May 9th.
24 Now, you indicated that that morning, you attempted to make
25 contact with General Petkovic, and you failed, and then ultimately he
1 came into the office in the early afternoon; correct?
2 A. [No verbal response]
3 Q. And then in the early afternoon, somebody told you to try to find
4 Pasalic on the phone; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, was that -- did General Petkovic ask you, himself, or did
7 someone else ask you?
8 A. Someone else.
9 Q. And you failed in finding Pasalic; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And did Petkovic or anyone else ever tell you on that day to stop
12 looking for him because they knew where he was?
13 A. When we couldn't reach him, I told the chief that, and he
14 probably passed it on further. So there was no more reason for somebody
15 to tell me to stop calling him. Okay, you can't reach him. That's it,
16 but I accomplished that task.
17 Q. And do I understand that it took you much of the day before you
18 communicated that you could not find him?
19 A. Well, not much of the day. I needed half an hour for me to
20 understand that through my own wire system of communication, I would not
21 be able to reach him.
22 Q. Now, on May 9th, you indicated that several -- many HVO people
23 came in. You also indicated that on the ground floor is HVO Main Staff,
24 but on the first floor is the Defence Department; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And on May 9th, did you see Mr. Stojic in the building?
2 A. I didn't see him, myself, no.
3 Q. Do you know if he was there?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. What about Slobodan Bozic; did you see him?
6 A. I didn't see him either.
7 Q. Do you know if he was there?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know who Vaso Vegar is?
10 A. Would you repeat that, please? I didn't hear. I didn't
11 understand what you asked.
12 Q. Do you know who Veso Vegar is?
13 A. Veso Vegar, not Vaso. Vaso is someone else. Yes, I know who
14 Veso Vegar is.
15 Q. On that day, did you see him?
16 A. I saw him very rarely, generally speaking, while at the
17 Main Staff, and I am not quite sure about that particular day.
18 Q. You had, yesterday, spoken about the training and operations part
19 of the HVO. Am I correct that ONO is the abbreviation for
20 Training and Operations?
21 A. ONO, an abbreviation, Department for Education and Training.
22 Q. Okay. And if we can go to -- back to Veso Vegar, you said you
23 knew who he was. And did you understand that his job regarded public
24 statements or media statements, that that was his role for the HVO?
25 A. I know that he was -- we used to refer to them as "PD,"
1 representative, or chief, or that. But, yes, he was there.
2 Q. Okay. And so he was the assistant head for information and
3 propaganda; correct?
4 A. Possibly.
6 October of 1992 and you were there at least until and through
7 May of 1993. I'd like to show you a document, an HVO Main Staff
8 document. It's 2D00687, and it's going to be in the binder in front of
9 you. 2D00687. You'll have it on the screen in front of you.
10 And this is a document signed by Petkovic on November 24th, 1992
11 so in a period of time when you were already with the Main Staff. Thank
12 you. And I'm just going to read a portion of it. He indicates in it
14 "In the past period, from the beginning of the war, there were
15 individuals from HVO that issued statements to the media by doing which
16 they revealed military secrets or in some other way diminished reputation
17 of certain unit, headquarters, or HVO HZ-HB.
18 "So that this wouldn't continue in the future, I command:"
19 And under number 1 he writes:
20 "Nobody from operational zone, headquarters, or formations can
21 give statements to the media without my permission."
22 Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that if anyone in the HVO was
23 giving statements to the media, Petkovic was to be informed about it?
24 A. Reading this order, that's how things should have been. Now,
25 whether they actually were like that in practice, I really don't know.
1 Q. So let's talk about the days preceding May 9th. Were you aware
2 that Petkovic had met with Pasalic on May 4th for negotiations with
3 SpaBat? Were you aware of that?
4 A. I knew in talking to my other colleagues. I didn't take part in
5 any of that; I didn't see them leave or come in. But I heard that they
6 had attended the meeting.
7 Q. All right. And let's talk about -- in those same days, about
8 Bruno Stojic. Can you tell us, in the days preceding May 8th, where --
9 the whereabouts of Bruno Stojic? Do you know?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Okay. Well, you indicated that at least on May 8th, you
12 understood that Petkovic went to -- Petkovic and Stojic went to the
13 North-West Command for a tour; correct?
14 A. I didn't conclude that; I found that written down in the duty
15 log-book. I made no conclusion myself either way.
16 Q. Okay, fair enough. So at 4.00 on May 8th, you looked at the duty
17 log-book, and it indicated that Petkovic and Stojic were in the
18 North-West Command, touring; is that right?
19 A. No. It said that the gentlemen you mentioned would be touring
20 the Tomislavgrad Military District on the 9th of May.
21 Q. On the 9th of May or on the 8th of May?
22 A. The next day, the following day. So if I read "the 8th," it
23 meant the next day two of them would be touring the Military District of
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] A correction to the transcript.
1 Line 4, when the witness said "if I read it on the 8th," this "8th" was
2 put in inverted commas, as if he was quoting something. But he's not
3 quoting anything; he's saying it referring to himself, "if I read this on
4 the 8th," so without the inverted commas, because otherwise that could
5 change the meaning. So just a normal sentence without the quotation
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Mr. Peric, I just want to make sure that we understand exactly
9 what your testimony is, and I'm going to read to you a sentence from the
10 summary of your testimony. You did not write this, but I just want to
11 understand exactly where they were on the 8th and the 9th.
12 The summary says that:
13 "Peric knew that Petkovic had left Mostar a day before," so this
14 would refer to the 8th, "together with the chief of the
15 Defence Department, Bruno Stojic, to visit the Command of the
16 North-West Operative Zone."
17 Is it your testimony that you understood that Stojic and Petkovic
18 were in the North-West Operative Zone on the 8th or on the 9th?
19 A. I think I said that on the table I found a piece of paper on
20 which it said that Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Stojic would, on the 9th of May,
21 be touring the Military District of Tomislavgrad. And next to that it
22 said that I could reach General Petkovic at such and such a number, that
23 I could try and reach him on that number if something was needed. So
24 that was common practice. They would always attach this to a page.
25 So I didn't know that they had left on the 8th of May together,
1 even less that they visited Tomislavgrad on the 8th -- the
2 Military District of Tomislavgrad on the 8th. I didn't know where they
3 were on the 9th of May, in the morning, either, as it said that they
4 toured on the 8th. I don't know what it says on your piece of paper, but
5 I said that they were supposed to go and tour the area on the 9th of May.
6 Q. Sir, you indicated that you had heard, or at least you knew from
7 some source, that Petkovic had been with Pasalic at least on May 4th for
8 SpaBat negotiations; is that right?
9 A. That's what I heard. Now, I don't know whether he was there or
10 not. I didn't see him.
11 Q. Okay. So is it your last information -- or on the morning of
12 May 9th, when you were making efforts to find Pasalic, is the last
13 information you have as his whereabouts, is that information that he was
14 with SpaBat?
15 A. I didn't have that information. Nobody told me.
16 Q. Well, sir, is it your testimony that you didn't try to reach
17 SpaBat that morning?
18 A. No, I didn't. We never tried; at least I didn't. And I didn't
19 try that morning either.
20 Q. All right. Well, we're going to talk about the location of
21 Mr. Pasalic that day, and I'm going to ask you some questions in regard
22 to your ability to communicate regarding it.
23 MS. WEST: Let's look at P1138 -- P11138, excuse me. And I think
24 we have it up on the screen in front of us. And if we can go to the
25 paragraph in English beginning at 6.1, but in the B/C/S it's actually
1 1.2. I don't know why they're different. So in B/C/S, it's
2 paragraph 1.2; English, paragraph 6.1.
3 So this is a SpaBat report --
4 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned
5 friend, but I would like to object to the way in which -- equally, in the
6 same manner that Mr. Scott objected last week; namely, that is that there
7 are no grounds to present this document, because the witness clearly said
8 that he never communicated with SpaBat, nor did he have any knowledge of
9 where Mr. Pasalic was on that particular day.
10 So Mr. Scott objected in the same fashion last week, when the
11 witness was asked about Sovici and Doljani, and Mr. Scott said at the
12 time that the witness hadn't been there and so he doesn't know about
13 that. So he objected in the same fashion that I'm objecting now.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this
15 document was under seal or not. Let me ask the Legal Officer to check
17 Yes, obviously it was under seal, so it shouldn't be broadcast.
18 Put your question, and we'll see much.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 Q. If we go to the area under "Mostar," it says "Other information."
21 "At 1850, a Spanish convoy escorting Brigadier Pasalic and
22 Colonel Filipovic was detained at control point E5. At 2008, an officer
23 of the HVO military police presented himself at the above-mentioned
24 control point, reinforcing it and encouraging his men to adopt an
25 aggressive attitude towards the Spanish convoy. Authorisation to
1 continue was given at 2100 hours, but at 2140 the convoy was again
2 detained at the Vrapcici check-point, where allegations were made of the
3 existence of uncontrolled groups that are mining the roads. HVO sources
4 have informed --" this is the captain of the SpaBat company, "... serving
5 in the city of the possibility of HVO-BiH confrontations tonight."
6 So, sir, let's first look at this check-point. It says that this
7 convoy with Pasalic in it was stopped on May 8th, the night of May 8th,
8 at 2140, and it stopped at the Vrapcici check-point. Sir, the Vrapcici
9 check-point is within the South-East Command area; correct?
10 A. Well, Vrapcici are in the area of the South-East Operations Zone.
11 Q. So I'll take that your answer is, Yes.
12 And my next question is: On the morning of May 9th, you actually
13 called the South-East Operations Zone; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did they give you any information about this convoy being stopped
16 the evening before containing Pasalic and Filipovic?
17 A. No, nothing. They just said that a BH Army attack had been
18 launched along the axis that I've already mentioned, and so I don't have
19 to repeat that.
20 Q. Let's go to P02241, P02241. P02241. And in this, we're going to
21 focus on paragraph 1.1.
22 This is another SpaBat report, and this is the night of May 9th.
23 It was written at 2130 that night. And under 1.1 for check-points, it
24 says that:
25 "On May 9th --" if the Chamber can indulge me, it looks like it
1 says "10.00 a.m.
2 "On May 9th, after painstaking consultations with Mr. Bozic, the
3 Spanish patrol providing escort protection for Pasalic and Filipovic was
4 allowed through the check-point at Vrapcici with the proviso that it must
5 not enter Mostar and must make its way directly to Dracevo."
6 Mr. Peric, can you tell me whether you remember Mr. Bozic calling
7 the Main
8 May 9th? Do you remember any phone call from Mr. Bozic?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. All right. And this information indicates that this convoy was
11 allowed to go through Vrapcici, but with the proviso that it must not
12 enter Mostar, and it had to make its way directly to Dracevo.
13 Sir, would you agree with me that it was possible for the HVO to
14 actually escort this SpaBat convoy through Mostar to ensure that it did
15 not stop?
16 A. Well, they could have escorted it if -- from the positions of
17 that check-point, crossed over to the side under the control of the HVO
18 and passed through Mostar to Medjugorje.
19 Q. Thank you. So you're suggesting that they actually didn't have
20 to even go through ABiH territory; they could have gone through HVO
21 territory to get to Dracevo?
22 A. What I'm saying is that they could have gone through. Now,
23 whether they went through that way, I don't know. Theoretically, they
24 could have gone through that way.
25 Q. Okay. And would you also agree with me that despite all your
1 efforts to find Pasalic, at least at this point, after these painstaking
2 consultations with Bozic, that at least Slobodan Bozic knew of his
3 whereabouts at this time?
4 A. I don't know that.
5 Q. We're going to go to P02235, P02235.
6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, in the meantime while this document is
7 trying to be found, just for the record -- I was trying not to take any
8 valuable time of this honourable Court, but the entire subject matter,
9 the questions which were put to the witness, is merely speculation.
10 After the witness clearly said that he didn't contact the
11 Spanish Battalion, that he didn't know about where was Bozic, then
12 documents were produced, and everything is, Could that happen? He said,
13 Well, I don't know, maybe, probably. Whatever, it is really speculation.
14 So about 10 minutes, I guess, there is not any result -- any practical
15 result for us. Thank you.
16 MS. WEST: Mr. President, and if I can just comment on that as
18 This witness was brought here to --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just continue, just continue.
20 You have eight ears listening to your questions and your answers, and I
21 believe that what Mr. Kovacic just said was totally irrelevant.
22 MS. WEST: P02235.
23 Q. And this is a further description of the events at the
24 check-point when SpaBat escort was stopped, and so this is 1830, 6.30 in
25 the evening, on May 9th. And we're going to go to the part under
1 "Other activities" in the English, it's the last page. I suspect it's
2 the last page in the B/C/S. There, it says:
3 "Transport and escort protection were provided for
4 General Pasalic and General Filipovic from Jablanica to Mostar. The HVO
5 refused this escort entry after a wait of more than seven hours. The
6 persons escorted were taken to Dracevo where they spent the night and
7 where they still remain."
8 Mr. Peric, would you agree with me that in an event like this,
9 where HVO units are detaining a SpaBat APC for seven hours, that in that
10 event it would be very likely that the Main Staff would be notified of
12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a very
13 serious objection.
14 This is a topic now that was not covered during the
15 examination-in-chief. I don't question that my learned friend, in
16 conformity with the Rules and your guide-lines, should enter into a new
17 area, but then she should know that leading questions are not allowed
18 there. So I'm not challenging the fact that the Prosecutor can ask about
19 UNPROFOR and Pasalic, but could you remind her that she must not put
20 leading questions.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, in order for us not
22 to waste time, let me remind you that the witness we have here was in
23 charge of communications at the time. He does not know the documents
24 that you are showing to him at the moment, but maybe you could cross with
25 elements that he had in the Communication Centres with the content of
1 this document. But please proceed wisely; otherwise, the Defence lawyers
2 are going to rise to their feet and raise objections.
3 Of course, we understand the problem. We're no fools. We see
4 the documents, we listen, but you are working in a very technical
5 fashion. But remember that this witness was a low-ranking officer at the
6 time in charge of communications. He wasn't even the head of that
8 MS. WEST: Can I ask -- Mr. President, I absolutely agree.
9 However, this particular witness, at 4.00 on May 8th, is the duty officer
10 at the Main Staff. And as he's already testified, if things are
11 happening out in the field, the information is coming to him.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then ask the question, what
13 kind of information did he get at 4.00 p.m. It's interesting.
14 MS. WEST:
15 Q. Sir, in regard to the information that I just read to you about
16 this seven hours -- this check-point stop for seven hours, did you
17 receive any information, during the evening of May 8th and the morning of
18 May 9th, about such a stop?
19 A. I didn't receive any information at all.
20 Q. You would agree with me that at least at this point during this
21 stop, that somebody in the HVO knows exactly where Pasalic is located,
22 although it was not you?
23 A. Well, I don't need to agree or disagree. If somebody knew, they
24 probably knew, but I have no knowledge of anybody knowing. So I
25 apologise to the Judge, but may I be allowed to expand and say something
1 at this point?
2 I came here as a witness for the Petkovic Defence. You had all
3 my CV --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, that's not the
5 problem. Ms. West is asking you, since you were on duty at 4.00 p.m. on
6 the 8th of May, what information you received, because things are this
7 way: Last week, it turned out that General Filipovic told us, under
8 oath -- he took an oath, just like you did. He told us that he, together
9 with Mr. Pasalic, were held. Well, I'm saying "held." They were
10 arrested by the SpaBat. This is a major event. The number 1 BH Army man
11 in Mostar was in the hands of SpaBat. And Mr. Filipovic, he was not just
12 anybody. He, too, was held by SpaBat. That's what he said. And
13 Ms. West wants to know whether you were aware of the information. That's
14 as simple as that; that's all. The rest is secondary.
15 I'm asking myself as well how it is that somebody who's on duty
16 at the headquarters at the Main Staff was not informed of such an event,
17 which, in my book, is a very major event. And the Prosecutor is trying
18 to elicit from you whether you knew or not, so answer whether you did or
20 Please continue, Ms. West.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know, but I said that
23 MS. WEST: P02273, P02273. This is another SpaBat report, and
24 this covers a period of time -- it's from May 9th, 1830,
25 to May 10th, 1830
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, are you sure that it is SpaBat,
2 because here it reads "ECMM."
3 MS. WEST: May we go into private session?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
5 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
23 MS. WEST:
24 Q. So the part under Mostar says:
25 "Access routes to the town are closed. Fighting has continued
1 through the day. The HVO controls all access routes to the town."
2 Mr. Peric, are you aware that from May 9th, 1830,
3 to May 10th, 1830
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. We're going to continue on lower in the "Mostar"
6 paragraph. It says:
7 "General Pasalic, commander of the 4th Corps of the BH Army, is
8 in the Spanish Detachment in Dracevo, and some HVO check-points have been
9 put up around the detachment in order to prevent him from leaving. The
10 deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade showed up in the detachment,
11 demanding that General Pasalic be handed over, which the detachment
12 commander refused. The situation remains tense, and the SpaBat has
13 contacted General Petkovic in order to solve the problem created by the
14 presence of General Pasalic in our detachment."
15 So I want to go over this point by point with you, and it would
16 suggest that during the 24-hour period from the 9th to the 10th, starting
17 at 6.30, HVO check-points were put up around the Spanish --
18 SpaBat Detachment in order to prevent Pasalic from leaving. Is this
19 information that the Main Staff received during that period of time?
20 A. I don't know. I didn't see that.
21 Q. "The deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade showed up in the
22 detachment, demanding that Pasalic be handed over, which the detachment
23 commander refused."
24 Now, considering your experience in the HVO, would an order to
25 surround and arrest the commander of the 4th Corps be something that
1 Petkovic would be apprised of?
2 A. All I can tell you is my opinion, but it's difficult to say
3 whether the information came through or not.
4 Q. "The situation remains tense, and the SpaBat has contacted
5 General Petkovic in order to solve the problem created by the presence of
6 General Pasalic in our detachment."
7 Mr. Peric, were you ever informed, on May 9th or May 10th, that
8 the whereabouts of General Pasalic was at the SpaBat Detachment?
9 A. I received no information at all. Quite simply, even if such
10 information had existed, which I'm not aware of, it would have had no way
11 of reaching me. I have no idea why you're asking me to confirm all these
13 Q. Well, sir, the reason I'm asking you is you were put on a task,
14 which was to find General Pasalic on May 9th, and it appears from these
15 documents, and I'll ask you whether you would agree with this, that the
16 HVO knows exactly where General Pasalic is on the night of May 8th, the
17 day of May 10th, the day of -- excuse me, the 8th, 9th, and 10th, that
18 the HVO knows exactly where he is, yet you were asked to find him.
19 Can you tell us, what is your opinion of that? Would you agree
20 with me that those two facts, you were asked to find them, yet the HVO
21 knows where he is, why were they inconsistent?
22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
23 Objection, Your Honour.
24 The HVO had no way of knowing anything. Individuals within the
25 HVO, perhaps. If my learned friend wishes to suggest that
1 General Petkovic knew something, she should name him. The HVO comprised
2 thousands of people. The question is, therefore, highly imprecise.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor is
4 saying that this SpaBat document, it is a written document that says that
5 the deputy commander of the Capljina Brigade reported and demanded that
6 General Pasalic be handed over.
7 In other words, if this is an authentic document, there's at
8 least one person -- at least one person within the HVO who knows that
9 Pasalic is there, and that person is the deputy commander of the brigade.
10 And there's also General Filipovic, because Filipovic is together with
11 Pasalic. So there are at least two HVO members who know.
12 And, by the way, last week -- well, I did not know that the
13 Prosecutor was going to put these questions, but I have an overall view
14 of the case, and I asked General Filipovic whether he was able to
15 communicate during that time with somebody who was outside. I asked him
16 whether he was able to, and he said he wasn't. And I, therefore,
17 concluded that the information about this, quote/unquote, "detention" was
18 not made outside, but here it seems that somebody in the HVO knew about
19 it. So there's at least one person in the know.
20 And you, did you know or not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of it.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West.
23 MS. WEST: Sir, I'm going to go to P11139, P11139. You might be
24 able to just get it right there.
25 Q. This is another SpaBat report, and this the next day. So this is
1 another 24-hour report, and this is May 10th at 1830 hours to
2 May 11th at 1830 hours. So it covers that 24-hour period.
3 And we're going to go to page 6 of the English, which is the last
4 paragraph of the "Mostar" section. So the last paragraph of the "Mostar"
5 section. And it says:
6 "General Petkovic --"
7 Excuse me. We're going to go to -- it's not the last paragraph.
8 My apologies. It's in the middle. It says:
9 "General Pasalic, commander of the 4th Corps of the
10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, continues to be at the Spanish Detachment in
11 Dracevo. The HVO has set up check-points around the Spanish Detachment
12 to prevent him from leaving."
13 So, Mr. Peric, this would tell us that this confinement continued
14 on at least for another day, because this report spans to at least
15 1830 on May 11th. So now we're two days out after you were told to find
17 My question to you is: Is there any information that you have at
18 the HVO Main
19 A. I'm saying this for the umpteenth time. I did not have the
20 information. I didn't know where Pasalic was.
21 Q. Although you didn't know where Pasalic was, do you agree with me
22 that it is clear from these documents that other people in the HVO knew
23 exactly where Pasalic was, and those other people include
24 General Petkovic?
25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, now I really object.
1 This is a fact witness. How he is asked to conclude something?
2 This is prerogative of the Chamber, not of the witness. This is maybe
3 the question for expert, not for a factual witness, definitely. Even if
4 he replies, it doesn't have any value. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness is able to answer
6 any question, and the Prosecutor asked a question and he answered.
7 So, Colonel, did you understand the question put to you by the
8 Prosecutor? Would you answer?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what all these
10 questions are meant for. I'm sure to answer "I don't know" in relation
11 to each and every one.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The purpose, well, that's known
13 to the Prosecutor alone.
14 But please continue, Prosecutor.
15 But, Colonel, in this document we have in front of us -- look at
16 me, please. There's a major event that took place on that day. At 1320,
17 Lieutenant Arturo Munoz Castellanos was wounded, and he died later on.
18 Was this a piece of information made known to you; namely, that a SpaBat
19 officer had been wounded by gun-shot? Were you made aware of this or
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Even such a relevant
23 information was not known to you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that the gentleman
25 was wounded.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.
2 Ms. West.
3 MS. WEST: If we can go to P11146, P11146. This is an article.
4 This is a newspaper article dated May 10th, so the day after the attack,
5 and it's written by Veso Vegar.
6 So on the B/C/S, you have the front page of the newspaper, and
7 you have "Attack on Mostar" on the top, and then the article itself is
8 actually on page 11.
9 The front page of the paper says:
10 "Attack on Mostar. Inserted groups of the Army of BiH Sunday
11 morning attacked the HVO, Tihomir Misic Barracks. All the facilities
12 have been defended. Seven members of the HVO died in the clashes.
13 Mate Boban to Konjic Croats, 'Do not be afraid.'"
14 And if we go to the actual article, it's an article written by
15 Veso Vegar, and this May 10th, so published the day after you were
16 looking for Pasalic. It says:
17 "An attempt to take Mostar averted. Inserted groups of the
18 Army of the BiH early Sunday morning attacked the HVO barracks. At the
19 same time, snipers were heard in a number of the city's neighbourhoods,
20 which the HVO Command interpreted as an attempt to take Mostar. All the
21 facilities were defended. Two HVO members died and five were wounded in
22 the clashes."
23 And then the last sentence of the headline is:
24 "Arif Pasalic on the run?"
25 So if we go through the article, and I won't read the whole
1 thing, but I would like to go to the fourth paragraph, starting with the
2 fourth paragraph. It says:
3 "The commander of the HVO South-East Herzegovina Operations Zone,
4 Brigadier Miljenko Lasic, issued an order to the war hospital in Mostar
5 to continue treating all the soldiers and civilians, irrespective of the
6 unit they belonged to or their nationality. The HVO Operations
7 Zone Command issued a statement calling all the members of the
8 Army of BiH units currently staying in apartment buildings and other
9 buildings in the town to surrender their weapons, guaranteeing them full
10 security. Persons who are searching the apartments are warned not to
11 take anything except military equipment and weapons."
12 And it goes on to say that:
13 "The statement indicates," and so this is at the
14 HVO Operations Zone, Lasic, the South-East Command statement, "indicates
15 that one of the main culprits of the current situation in Mostar is the
16 Army of BiH 4th Corps Command, Arif Pasalic, who is trying to flee Mostar
17 with the aid of UNPROFOR. According to the information available at the
18 time, the statement was issued, the convoy with Pasalic in it had already
19 passed the check-point at Zitomislic. The statement says that the attack
20 on the HVO barracks synchronised with the activities of a large number of
21 snipers, which marked a general attack on the town, was only a
22 continuation of many days, long provocative activities of the
23 Army of BiH, which failed to fulfill its obligation to abandon civilian
24 facilities in the town. The Command of the South-East Herzegovina
25 Operations Zone says that the aim of the attack is the taking of Mostar."
1 Q. Mr. Peric, this article was published May 10th, the next morning,
2 after May 9th, and it would appear from looking at this article, would
3 you agree, that at least Veso Vegar and the South-East Herzegovina
4 Operations Zone, they appear to identify the location of Pasalic? Would
5 you agree with that?
6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, excuse me. I have no
7 choice but to object.
8 That is quite different from the previous question. It's quite
9 clear that Mr. Vegar doesn't even know where he is. He only hears here
10 about Pasalic trying to escape from Mostar, which is very different from
11 what the witness was told earlier on.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Ms. West.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. So, sir, in reading this article, it talks about a statement
15 issued by the South-East Herzegovina Operations Zone, a statement,
16 I think we will agree, that had to have been issued on May 9th or very,
17 very early in the morning on May 10th, indicating that at least Lasic
18 knew the location of Pasalic; is that right? Do you agree with me that
19 that's what it appears to say?
20 A. I cannot agree. I don't know. "Arif Pasalic trying to escape?"
21 That's what I see here. It's a question, it's not a statement, an
23 Q. All right. But we spoke earlier about media reports coming out
24 of the HVO, and you had indicated -- I showed you a document about --
25 from Petkovic indicating that he wanted approval of all media reports.
1 You would agree with me that if Veso Vegar is going to publish a story on
2 May 10th, the morning after the events -- the major events in Mostar,
3 that General Petkovic is going to know about this report; is that right,
4 sir? Would Petkovic have known about this report?
5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.
6 Mr. Veso Vegar appeared at this trial as a witness. He said
7 clearly that he was the assistant of the representative of the
8 Defence Department. He was in charge of IPD, and he explained to the
9 Court, himself, how he wrote public communiques, how he communicated with
10 the public, and that was his task. He had nothing to do with the
11 Chief of the Main Staff or the Main Staff, itself, nor was he an employee
12 of the Main Staff.
13 Therefore, the order that Mr. Petkovic issued can in no way be in
14 reference to the head -- or, rather, assistant head of the
15 Defence Department, who later became the defence minister. I simply have
16 to react, because my learned friend here is trying to link up two things
17 that are totally unrelated.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here we have an
19 article signed by Veso Vegar. In this article, as he puts it -- we don't
20 know what information he has, but he says that Pasalic is together with
21 the UNPROFOR. So how is it that he, an HVO member, knows this, whilst
22 you, who were supposed to be on duty in the Communications Centre, you
23 did not know where Pasalic was? That's as simple as that.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is simple, too. I
25 didn't know because I received no information.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Ms. West.
3 MS. WEST:
4 Q. Mr. Peric, it's clear in here that Veso Vegar is suggesting to
5 the readers that Pasalic has tried to flee Mostar. With that being said,
6 would you agree with me that it's possible that Vegar fabricated this
7 story in order to deplete the morale of the Muslims in Mostar?
8 A. I can't agree. I don't know what he had in mind. I don't know
9 what he thought he was going to achieve. "Arif Pasalic trying to
10 escape?" He's asking himself whether that is, in fact, true or not.
11 He's not asserting that Arif Pasalic is on the run.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness. You seem not to have looked
13 at the document and listened to Ms. West and to the President carefully.
14 You seem to be stuck with the headlines and the lead. But if you go
15 down, you can read that:
16 "... one of the main culprits for the current situation in Mostar
17 is the Army of BiH 4th Corps's commander, Arif Pasalic, who is trying to
18 flee Mostar with the aid of UNPROFOR."
19 Full stop, no question mark. I am amazed that you always go back
20 to the question mark part and do not answer the question on the basis of
21 this passage.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never seen the
23 article before. I had no time to read it. I'm being pelted with
24 questions left, right, and center. It's very difficult for me to focus
25 on a single thing. The kind lady reads something back to me. I have to
1 check it. I have to see what it says. Nobody gave me this piece to
2 read. And then I can read it and base my opinion on my own reading, and
3 not on something that others are suggesting without me having seen the
4 piece. That's the only way I can answer these questions. That is why
5 I'm trying to be extra cautious. You know what they say, once burned,
6 twice shy. Perhaps I should be allowed to read the piece myself, and
7 then I can answer. Things being what they are, my answer remains the
8 only logical one. I haven't seen this; hence, I do not know.
9 MS. WEST:
10 Q. Mr. Peric, but you will agree with me that on the morning of the
11 9th, you did have communication with the South-East Command; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this article is based on a statement from the
14 South-East Command, so is it your testimony today that in your talks with
15 the South-East Command on May 9th, you didn't have any information that
16 Mr. Pasalic was trapped in a convoy?
17 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I received no information.
18 Q. Mr. Peric, is it reasonable to believe that the HVO purposely
19 surrounded Pasalic, attempted to arrest him to ensure that he did not get
20 to Mostar, so that it would make the HVO attack of Mostar easier? Is it
21 reasonable to believe that?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. General Petkovic
23 wants to take the floor.
24 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like
25 to ask you to ask the witness a technical question.
1 The witness was on duty between the 8th and the 9th. On the
2 morning of the 9th, he hands over and has nothing to do whatsoever
3 anymore with any official information reaching the Main Staff. Ask him
4 whether that's true. That morning, he handed over to a different person
5 altogether, by which time he was not receiving any information from the
6 operations zone or, indeed, anyone else. Can you just ask the witness
7 that, and that will clarify the whole matter. Why does the witness not
8 remember? Simply because he was no longer in touch with any sort of
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it is important to
11 know at what time you finished your duty shift, because we all were under
12 the impression that you were still on duty on the 9th of May. And now
13 General Petkovic says, No, you stopped your shift on the 10th of May.
14 So tell us exactly at what time you finished and who relieved
15 you, because otherwise it's a waste of time, because then you would no
16 longer be on duty.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have been trying to say that for
18 hours. I remained on duty until 7.00, or 8.00, actually, that morning.
19 The general's secretary came along, and she took it from there. I was on
20 my way back, as I said in no uncertain terms, to my office to go on
21 performing the tasks that I was given on that day. I'm talking about the
22 moment when the situation was more or less normal still.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 So he was no longer on duty at the Main Staff because the
25 secretary had arrived, she arrived around 7.00 or 8.00, and he returned
1 to his office. And so I confess that I'd forgotten about this so far.
2 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mr. Peric, I'm going to ask you some questions about Mount Hum
4 You were asked by General Praljak earlier today some questions about it,
5 and he, in the transcript, said:
6 "You were in Mostar. After the two sides separated in Mostar,
7 could you, from any of the HVO positions, see the Neretva banks
8 controlled by the BiH Army from any point?"
9 And you asked:
10 "Do you mean Mostar or the broader region around Mostar."
11 And he clarified, and he said:
12 "Only that part of Mostar that was under the supervision and
13 control of the BH Army, not what we can see from Hum Hill to the left and
14 the right."
15 And then you said you couldn't see the Neretva River
17 So I want to talk to you about Mount Hum, and obviously you're
18 familiar with it. The Trial Chamber has heard considerable evidence
19 regarding it and much to do about the shelling of the old bridge, but I
20 don't want to talk to you about that. I want to talk to you about it in
21 a general, strategic way.
22 Now, based on your experience as a military man and somebody who
23 lived in this region, would you agree with me that Mount Hum
24 highest point in the vicinity of the city?
25 A. There are many higher points.
1 Q. Nonetheless, would you agree from Hum a dominance of this city
2 and the valley below it could be established, that it was an important
3 military strategic point?
4 A. In any case, it was an important defence point. Now, that it
5 dominated the city, that that was that important, I'm not quite sure
6 about that. Perhaps for the southern part of the town. But for the
7 north and the other parts, it did not have any great value as a position.
8 Q. You just clarified and you said that it was important for the
9 defence of the city. But would you not agree with me that it would also
10 be important for an attack on the city?
11 A. No, this -- for an attack on the city, it wasn't important in
12 terms of domination. If I were to launch an attack on the city, I
13 wouldn't rely on Hum. So it wasn't of major importance as a dominant
14 point, having dominance over the city.
15 Q. Okay. I think others would disagree with you in regard to that,
16 but I'm -- and I'm going to show you a video, which is P06365. It's
17 going to be on the -- it's going to be on the screen, P06365. And this
18 is the Jeremy Bowen video. It's been admitted into evidence. This video
19 was shot in September, and we're just focusing right now on an interview
20 with General Pasalic. You can follow along. The interpreters will
21 interpret. You also have the transcript.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: September. Which year, please?
23 MS. WEST: Thank you. September 1993.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
25 MS. WEST: Thank you.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I think we just have a problem. I
3 don't have sound. Does the Chamber have sound? No.
4 Q. In your binder as well, there's a transcript of this interview
5 with Pasalic, and I'm going to read that to you. He's being interviewed
6 from -- by Jeremy Bowen. And Bowen says:
7 "Away from the fiercest fighting, the Bosnian Army also controls
8 the outlying villages to the north and south. General Pasalic, the
9 regional commander, took us to see them. He's a professional soldier.
10 He was an officer in the JNA, the old Yugoslav Army. Shells came in from
11 the Croat side occasionally, but it was a quiet day and the Bosnian
12 positions were secure."
13 This is still Bowen speaking:
14 "Even Mostar itself, five miles away, was fairly calm. The
15 general, though, was not a happy man. He should have been in 30 hours of
16 intense combat. His men battled their way --"
17 MR. KOVACIC: Unfortunately, you didn't give a number of the
18 document -- transcript in the binder, and I see that witness is trying to
19 looking at the monitor where is something entirely else. So it will be
21 MS. WEST: Yes, the --
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The document number was given. It is P06365.
23 MR. KOVACIC: It may be well so --
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's on the record also.
25 MR. KOVACIC: Okay, Your Honour. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's
1 obvious that the witness does not know that number.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It happens to all of us, Mr. Kovacic. I'm not
4 MS. WEST: So, again, it's 06365, 06365. P06365. And this is
5 the transcript of the video, and it's now actually on the screen. And
6 perhaps the best way would be for me to slowly continue to read it, and
7 we'll have the translations.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could we have the page on
9 the transcript, please?
10 MS. WEST: Yes. It's page 23, going in to page 24. And so I'll
11 just -- I will read it again.
12 Mr. Peric, I think maybe the best thing is for you to actually
13 look at the screen. Okay.
14 So we'll continue on where Bowen says:
15 "Even Mostar itself, five miles away, was fairly calm. The
16 general, though, was not a happy man. He should have been. In 30 years
17 of intense combat, his men battled their way through a Croat-controlled
18 suburb and up the mountain called Hum which dominates Mostar. It was
19 probably their single most significant victory of the war ."
20 And the next page, this is with Pasalic speaking, he says:
21 "That mountain is the key. Whether you are attacking or
22 defending, whoever wants to conquer Mostar must take control of the
23 mountain, and whoever defends Mostar must keep control of the mountain
24 because it dominates the city and the whole of the valley."
25 Q. Mr. Peric, now hearing Mr. Pasalic's full opinion on Mount Hum
1 can you tell me whether you agree with it?
2 A. Well, no, I don't think I could agree with everything that
3 Mr. Pasalic said. But it becomes a little clearer, why he launched so
4 many attacks on Hum with the object of gaining control of it. He needed
5 to control it.
6 Q. And would you agree -- would you also -- well, would you agree
7 with me that in the beginning of May 1993, before May 9th and on May 9th
8 and after May 9th, the HVO was in control of Mount Hum
9 A. I can agree that it had the possibility of gaining that control.
10 Now, whether they were up there at those positions, I don't know.
11 Q. I'd like to go to the testimony of Seid Smajkic. This is
12 testimony in this case from May 24th, 2006
13 It's line 4, and he says -- he's talking about May 9th. The question is:
14 "Where were you on May 9th?"
15 His answer, line 6:
16 "I was in home, in my house on the right bank, right next to the
17 demarcation line which was established at the time. In the early-morning
18 hours, at dawn, there was fierce artillery fire, and attempts were made
19 to expel the Muslim population and to expel people from their houses.
20 People were expelled outside, they were in their pyjamas or nightgowns,
21 and they were driven off in various directions. Since my house is
22 located at the demarcation line, I saw right next to my house, with my
23 very own eyes, thousands of people who have been expelled. They had been
24 woken up, and they were expelled. They left in tears, with their
25 children, and they passed by my house and headed east. And there was
1 quite a large group that headed off in that direction. I'll never forget
2 that event. There was crying, groaning, people were beside themselves.
3 And while they were leaving, fire was opened on them from Hum and from
4 other directions so that they would continue moving out."
5 Mr. Peric, isn't it true that on May 9th, HVO had control of
6 Mount Hum
7 A. I don't know whether he did have control, but the possibility of
8 gaining control existed.
9 Q. Sir, I now want to talk to you about check-points and access to
11 MS. WEST: If we can go to P02227.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a follow-up
14 I'm not going to ask for the video to be played again. But you
15 were living in Mostar, at least you worked in Mostar, so I would like to
16 know your opinion regarding an assessment made by this reporter,
17 Jeremy Bowen. This is what he says:
18 "Mostar is a city that is the most destroyed city in the former
20 Vukovar. This is a fierce battle, and it will continue for a long time."
21 For those who might be interested, this is 35 minutes and
22 2 seconds into the tape. What's your take on this?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that's a journalist
24 professionally earning his money, writing to earn his money, writing
25 things that the editor or editorial policy requires. To say that Mostar
1 was worse than Sarajevo/Vukovar is absurd. Only a man who was well paid,
2 had a high salary, could write anything like that, or for some other
3 motive. But to say that Mostar was more destroyed than Sarajevo and
4 Vukovar, as far as I'm concerned, that's absurd. I don't know. That's
5 my opinion, anyway.
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, have you looked at destructions in
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the war, I saw the
9 consequences of the destruction in Sarajevo. Now, during the war, I
10 followed the situation on television and the images shown of Sarajevo
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Vukovar, you've just blindly said that it was
12 not -- that Mostar was not worse. But you have no real knowledge of
13 that; is that correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in Vukovar during the war.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And afterwards?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Afterwards, I went to Vukovar, but
17 when everything had already finished, when the war had stopped. It might
18 have been 1998 or 1999.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you say you went to
21 Vukovar in 1998. Could you compare the two cities, when it came to
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You couldn't compare them. In
24 Vukovar, mostly I saw destroyed small houses that were not from
25 reinforced concrete, whereas in Mostar there's even a book called
1 "Urbicide," I believe the title is, which shows photographs, and you can
2 see what was destroyed and how much was destroyed. And I have given my
3 opinion and said that the destruction of Mostar and the destruction of
4 Vukovar cannot be compared, just as you can't compare the destruction of
6 MS. WEST:
7 Q. We're going to look at P02227. This is an ABiH document from
8 May 8th. 2227. It's only a two-page document. It's on May 8th, and it
9 is to the president of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It talks
10 about current events in Mostar.
11 In the fifth paragraph down - I think you're going to have it on
12 the screen in a moment. There you go. Fifth paragraph down, it says:
13 "Mostar is being blocked on all sides by the HVO and HV forces,
14 which do not allow Serb and Muslims to leave the town. Passenger traffic
15 is interrupted, humanitarian convoys are being intercepted, and looting,
16 and the drivers detained. The television service has discontinued for
17 Muslims, although the television exchange is in working order."
18 Mr. Peric, this is on May 8th. It reflects the events that day.
19 Do you agree with me that Mostar was blocked in on all sides by the HVO
20 and HV?
21 A. I don't agree with that observation.
22 Q. Go to P02273. You looked at this document earlier, when we were
23 talking about Pasalic. It's a SpaBat document, P02273. So I think
24 you'll be familiar. It's page 3 of the English. It talks about Mostar.
25 And I think if you look at the screen, you'll see it more quickly.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, a quick question regarding
2 the first document we saw.
3 As far as you know, did the BH Army wire-tap the HVO?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the wire communication of
5 the HVO or the radio relay system; which?
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Land lines and radio systems,
7 any communication system of the HVO. Were they eavesdropping on any
8 communications systems of the HVO?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone that has a device,
10 including the BH Army. It costs 1- or 200 Deutchemarks or Euros, and
11 they could listen in to the radio relay communications, which means that
12 the BH Army did have that possibility.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking this because on
14 May 8th Mr. Pasalic is writing to Mr. Izetbegovic and is taking stock of
15 the situation in Mostar. If Mr. Pasalic had known that the HVO had a
16 plan to attack on May 9, would he have mentioned this in this document?
17 Could you give us your answer, as a military man?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had he known -- if he had known
19 that the HVO would attack him, and on the 9th of May in the morning,
20 well, of course, every commander would try and inform his superior about
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Ms. West.
24 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. And just to clarify as to who wrote this letter, it's signed by
1 the 4th Corps Organ for IPD, Moral and Religious Issues, and then there's
2 a signature on the B/C/S. Do you agree with me that that's not
3 Mr. Pasalic?
4 A. This isn't Mr. Pasalic, no.
5 Q. All right. So, Mr. Peric, would you agree that if the HVO had
6 blocked all access to Mostar on May 8th and that continued on, would it
7 be fair to say that if the ABiH wanted to get supplies in on May 8th or
8 May 9th, it would have been very difficult?
9 A. From the south, from the southern approaches towards Metkovici,
10 it would have been difficult; but towards Sarajevo, not. Well, it would
11 be difficult, but not impossible. It would be difficult, but feasible,
12 towards the north. Now, towards the east, the Army of Republika Srpska
13 was already over there. So whether they used that access or not, I don't
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction to the
16 transcript. Line 21, the word "Sarajevo" missing. The witness said
17 "from the direction of Metkovici would be difficult and well nay
18 impossible, but from Sarajevo
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] North, yes, that means from
22 I think that's what I said.
23 MS. WEST: Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Peric, you've indicated that on the morning of May 9th, you
25 called the South-East Command and received information from them that the
1 ABiH had attacked certain HVO positions in Mostar. I'd like to talk
2 about the issue of who attacked first, and I'd like to go to some of the
3 internationals in the area to see what their opinion is.
4 MS. WEST: If we can go to P02241, 2241. This is another SpaBat
5 document. We're going to go to page 3 in the English, under "Mostar."
6 It's under the "Mostar" heading, and this is from May 9th. It's the
7 evening of May 9th, 2130
8 And under "Shelling," it says:
9 "At 500 hours, mortar attacks were launched against the Muslim
10 sector from HVO positions."
11 Mr. Usher, can I ask you to remain, because we'll have another
12 one very quickly.
13 Q. So this indicates that it was SpaBat's position -- they wrote
14 that at 5.00 that morning, mortar attacks were launched against the
15 Muslim sector from HVO positions.
16 Would you agree with me, sir, that at least SpaBat believed that
17 the HVO started the attack on Mostar?
18 A. I couldn't agree with that opinion, either with the SpaBat
19 opinion or with your opinion. I have a completely different opinion,
21 Q. I'd like to look at the ECMM opinion.
22 MS. WEST: Can we go to P02237, P02237.
23 Q. This is an ECMM report. It's dated May 9th. It says "Urgent" on
24 top, and it starts with number 1, that:
25 "The BiH Army informed us," being ECMM, "of the attack of Mostar
1 early in the morning by the HVO units with Croatian forces. After
2 checking by CC Grude, it is now confirmed that fighting using, in
3 particular, mortars started this morning at 5.00 a.m., with clear HVO
4 attacks on BiH positions inside of the town. Attacks were simultaneously
5 conducted on BiH forces north of Mostar, halfway to Jablanica, in
6 Dreznica, which is quite the last stronghold of BiH in the center of a
7 completely HVO-controlled road to Jablanica. SpaBat has withdrawn from
8 Mostar, where they had patrolled for three weeks. CC Grude tries to find
9 new information without being able to enter Mostar itself."
10 Sir, I want to focus first on this other attack. It says:
11 "Attacks were simultaneously conducted on the BiH forces north of
12 Mostar, halfway to Jablanica ..."
13 Would you agree with me that simultaneous attacks in different
14 areas, at a distance from each other, were likely not a result of
16 A. I don't know that somebody attacked somebody in Dreznica. That's
17 something that I'm hearing of for the first time today, and I don't know
18 if it would have been the same as the events on the 9th of May in Mostar.
19 I'm not calling them defence or attack, but the events. This is the
20 first time that I hear that it happened at the same time at Dreznica,
21 which is about 25 kilometres away from Mostar. So I don't know.
22 Q. And if we can go to number 4 of this document. It's the last
23 page of the English. It's under "Provisional Conclusion." Here, they're
24 talking about the events on May 9th, ECMM is, and it says:
25 "One cannot avoid that it is a new way to put pressure on the
1 BiH Presidency just before the meeting of the BiH Parliament scheduled in
2 Zenica for Monday with officially the Vance-Owen Plan at its agenda."
3 Mr. Peric, you commented, in your direct testimony, about the
4 Vance-Owen Plan, and I remember your testimony to be that in January,
5 when the Vance-Owen Plan came out - and you understood that HVO signed on
6 to it - you thought that the war would be over soon. So you're familiar
7 with the Vance-Owen Plan; correct?
8 A. I know that there was one such plan, that a meeting was held, and
9 that the representatives of the Croatian people agreed to the plan. And
10 as soldiers, we were happy that the war would end soon.
11 Q. But, in fact, that did not happen, and so at least --
12 JUDGE PRANDLER: Please.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. By May of 2009 [sic], you'll agree with me that that did not
15 happen, and so by the beginning of May, only the HVO had signed on to the
16 Vance-Owen Peace Plan; correct?
17 A. At the beginning of May 2009, you say that the Vance-Owen Plan
18 was signed; is that what you said?
19 Q. I'm sorry. If I did, my mistake. I meant 1993.
20 A. You keep saying "2009," so I was wondering.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we be precise as
22 to who signed, because different sides signed at different times in
23 different months. So may we have more precision there?
24 MS. WEST:
25 Q. Mr. Peric, let me rephrase the question. In the beginning of
1 May of 1993, the war was not over; correct?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And there had been no agreement among any of the parties in
4 regard to the Vance-Owen Plan; correct?
5 A. Obviously.
6 Q. And the Vance-Owen Plan was something that the HVO was in favour
7 of; correct?
8 A. Well, I have not seen a single proposal of the international
9 community that was not backed by the Croats.
10 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness got the wrong
11 interpretation. It might be a good idea for you to repeat the question.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter in the English booth did not
13 understand the last part of counsel's sentence.
14 MS. WEST:
15 Q. And so my question was: And the Vance-Owen Plan was something
16 that the HVO was in favour of; is that correct?
17 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
18 If I may be of assistance, I think the translation should be, the
19 interpretation for the witness, that the Vance-Owen Plan was in favour of
20 the HVO.
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, I'm sorry, you're completely wrong. That's
22 not what Ms. West asked. Ms. West asked whether the HVO was in favour of
23 the plan, and the witness has actually answered this question in a way
24 which gives the impression that he had correctly understood.
25 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I can move on.
1 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, please. Page 82,
2 lines 24 and 25, the Prosecutor says:
3 [In English] "And the Vance-Owen Plan was something that the HVO
4 was in favour of?"
5 [Interpretation] You're quite right. I do apologise. The
6 previous question was different, though.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you're going to move
8 on to another topic. I don't think you have much time left. The
9 Registrar is going to tell us. It might be time for a break, anyway.
10 We're going to tell you how much time you have left so that you can
11 organise yourself to make good use of the time left.
12 Twenty-four minutes after the break.
13 I hope there's not going to be any objection. Ms. Alaburic, I
14 hope you'll have time for your redirect. Otherwise, the witness will
15 have to return on Monday.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court's back in session.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Peric, before we broke, we were talking about the HVO being
21 in favour of the Vance-Owen Plan. And my question to you, page 82,
22 line 15, was:
23 "And the Vance-Owen Plan was something that the HVO was in favour
24 of; correct?"
25 And your answer was:
1 "Well, I have not seen a single proposal of the international
2 community that was not backed by the Croats."
3 So I will gather that your question -- your answer to that
4 question was, Yes. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So we were looking at P02237. It's the ECMM document we were
7 looking at before we stopped, and on the last page, number 4, under
8 "Conclusions," it says:
9 "One cannot avoid that it is a new way," speaking about the
10 attacks on Mostar, "to put pressure on the BiH Presidency just before the
11 meeting of the BiH Parliament scheduled in Zenica, for Monday, the
12 following day, with officially the Vance-Owen Plan at its agenda."
13 Mr. Peric, my question for you is: Would you agree with me that
14 the HVO attack on Mostar on May 9th, the day before the BiH Parliament on
15 May 10th was considering the Vance-Owen Plan, was a way to put pressure
16 on the BiH Parliament to capitulate to the Vance-Owen Plan?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prlic.
18 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] I think the facts are not
19 being stated correctly, especially those that are already part of this
21 Everyone knows that the Muslim side accepted the Vance-Owen Plan
22 on the 25th of March, 1993. It's part of the evidence in this case. At
23 the General Assembly meeting, which is also in evidence, the conclusion
24 was adoption on a bilateral application to the Vance-Owen Plan.
25 My only objection goes to the phrasing of the question. We can't
1 ask something that is contrary to what is in evidence already in this
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when judicial notice has
4 been taken, well, that's relative. Nothing prevents the Prosecutor from
5 revisiting the issue, because she has no certainty as to the fact whether
6 this Trial Chamber will draw the same conclusions from the
7 judicially-noticed facts.
8 And this idea put to the witness by the Prosecutor is an
9 interesting one, and the witness is free to answer or not. Was there a
10 similar -- a relation between the 9th of May and the session of the
11 BiH Parliament on the next day? It may be so, it may not, and the
12 witness may be able to shed some light on this.
13 So you've heard the question, Witness. What do you answer?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat? I've lost
15 track while all of this was going on.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West is going to repeat the
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, the problem I have with your question
19 is that it starts with an assumption; namely, that the HVO attacked the
20 ABiH on 9th of May. This is an assumption that the witness has always
21 denied today, unless I completely misunderstood, so I think it is not --
22 it doesn't make much sense. Ask him a question that is based on a
23 hypothesis which he rejects from the outset.
24 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you for that point, and
25 I'll take that into consideration.
1 Q. So my question for you, Mr. Peric, is: Assuming -- assume, for
2 the purposes of this question, that it was the HVO that attacked BiH
3 positions and Mostar on May 9th, would you agree with me that the fact
4 that the following day, on May 10th, the BiH Presidency was meeting to
5 speak about Vance-Owen, that those two events, the HVO attack on May 9th
6 and the meeting on May 10th, were somewhat related? And so, in other
7 words, that an HVO attack on May 9th was designed to put pressure on the
8 BiH Parliament at its May 10th meeting?
9 A. I don't think that makes any sense. If the Muslim side signed,
10 why should now there be an attack being launched by us in order to
11 jeopardise the signing of this agreement that suited us as well? Why
12 would we try to make them change their minds about something that they
13 had accepted previously?
14 Q. Mr. Peric, I'm going to talk to you about the military
15 circumstances of that day.
16 Now, we've spoken about three subject matters of military
17 significance on May 9th, and the first is the control of Mount Hum
18 second is control or access to the city of Mostar and check-points coming
19 into Mostar on May 9th; and the third is the absence of Pasalic on
20 May 9th.
21 I want you to assume for me in this question that the documents
22 that I showed you in regard to Pasalic's absence from May 9th are true.
23 I want you to assume that to be a fact. I also want you to assume,
24 because I know you disagreed, that HVO had control of Mount Hum
25 May 9th. And I also want you to assume that access to Mostar on May 9th
1 was closed off to anyone other than the HVO.
2 Would you agree with me that under those circumstances, that
3 would be a less-than-ideal scenario for an ABiH attack on HVO?
4 A. I cannot agree. Let me try to speak hypothetically.
5 The BH Army attack on HVO positions, it didn't mean a thing, that
6 the HVO had control over the southern section of M-17, or, indeed,
7 whether HVO controlled Hum. It didn't really matter. It might, in fact,
8 lead us to the opposite conclusion. If the HVO knew that they had those
9 points over there, that they were in control of that area, they probably
10 would have thought that the BH Army would not be launching an attack. We
11 could try to come to that conclusion, and, Let's try and launch an
12 attack, so you're trying to do something against general expectations,
13 and then you could put it that way. Why would the BH Army in that case
14 not decide to attack? They might as well.
15 Q. Sir, I'd like to talk to you -- we're going to move on from that,
16 and I'd like to talk to you about the issue of Serb shelling. You spoke
17 about this yesterday in both Ms. Alaburic's direct and also in the cross
18 of Ms. Nozica. And from the transcript from yesterday, this is daily
19 transcript 98, the question was:
20 "Tell me, Mr. Peric, until ... 1993, was there this intensive
21 shelling, and did the situation change later on?"
22 And the answer you gave was:
23 "The Army of Republika Srpska, is that what you mean?
24 "Q. Yes.
25 "A. Well, it went on intensively until about the end of June,
1 and I think I described this and said that when one side ceased, the
2 other side started.
3 "Q. Are you referring to 1993?
4 "A. Yes."
5 Mr. Peric, we're going to talk about this a little bit more, and
6 I'd like you to go to P04740. P04740. This is a presidential
7 transcript, and obviously you were not there, but some comments were made
8 and I'd like to know if they were consistent with your experience. This
9 is the transcript from the 2nd of September, 1993, and we're going to go
10 to page 10, page 10 of this transcript.
11 And in it, President Tudjman is talking about the situation in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he's speaking specifically about the
13 Croatian Army involvement there. And in the middle paragraph, he says:
14 "In view of this situation, we have to suppress relations with
16 and I'm going to say it again, there is no ... nor has there ever been an
17 agreement between Croats and Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina regarding
18 the division of Bosnia
19 months now there has been no fighting between the Croats and Serbs in
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
21 So this is September of 1993, and he's saying "five or six months
22 now," so this puts us before the beginning of the summer.
23 Sir, would you agree with me that Serb shelling in Mostar really
24 started to become sporadic and at a minimum beginning in 1993?
25 A. The shelling occurred on a daily basis, but not at the same rate,
1 hundreds of shells falling each and every day. Sometimes it was five
2 shells, sometimes ten shells. So it could be defined as low-intensity
3 shelling in relation to what was the case before. Nevertheless, it
4 happened every day, and, it always came as a warning that there was
5 someone behind your shoulder, Don't look around too much, just hurry up
6 and walk along.
7 Q. Let's talk about the shelling specifically in the month of
8 May of 1993. And we'll go to P04740, P04740.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the transcript in
10 English is not quite what I heard in French. It seems that you said -- I
11 don't know whether there is a translation mistake. You said that there
12 were five to ten shells falling every day, Serb shells. Is that what you
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said two, five, ten, maybe more.
15 The shells were being fired from the positions held by the VRS. Were
16 they Serb shells or Chinese shells, I don't know, but they certainly were
17 being fired from positions held by the VRS.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Every day?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in principle, every day.
20 Maybe they would stop for the Sunday mass.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Ms. West.
23 MS. WEST:
24 Q. Mr. Peric, we're going to talk about the month of May 1993.
25 P04740. You'll have that document in front of you, and in a moment we're
1 going to go to paragraph 26. This is a September 1993 UN report about
2 the situation in Mostar. If we go to paragraph 26 --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're making a mistake.
4 I think it's not the right number.
5 MS. WEST: Excuse me, I am making a mistake. P04822. My
6 apologies, thank you. P04822, paragraph 26. Thank you.
7 Q. So this is a September 1993 UN report about the situation in
9 "Since early May 1993, the east bank of Mostar is reported to
10 have been subjected to constant shelling and sniping from HVO positions
11 on the west bank of the city. Governmental sources claim that between
12 200 and 400 shells have impacted on average every day, destroying around
13 50 per cent of the buildings and 90 per cent of the private housing.
14 They also allege that on 24 August 1993
15 grenades on the east bank of the city from two crop-duster aeroplanes."
16 Mr. Peric, it appears, at least from a UN perspective, since
17 early May, that the east bank of Mostar has been primarily shelled by the
18 HVO. Do you agree with that?
19 A. No. No, I don't.
20 Q. Sir, I'd like to go back again to this -- to the topic of this
21 road going north out of Mostar. And I asked you some questions earlier
22 about it, on page 23 of the transcript, and I just want to get some
23 clarifications from you. So I'm going to read parts of the transcript to
24 ask you to elaborate a bit. It's page 43. So my question was:
25 "When you were speaking about June and August, were you talking
1 about 1992 or 1993?"
2 And you answered:
4 And then my question was:
5 "And then when you said until August that you could go that way,
6 but afterwards you couldn't, what happened in August to change that?"
7 Your answer was:
8 "That's when they had already broken through that part, making a
9 macadamised road surface to link it up with the road going across the
10 village of Ravni, Podgorani, across Livac, Vrapcici, towards Mostar."
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Ms. West. I wonder whether there
12 isn't a little mistake. Wasn't the first part that until August, you
13 could not go, but later you could because of the breakthrough?
14 MS. WEST: Maybe I misspoke. I think -- so I'm reading from the
15 transcript, and this is what I had asked:
16 "And then when you said until August, you could go that way, but
17 afterwards you couldn't?"
18 And I asked him, What happened in August to change it? We can
19 look at the transcript, Your Honour, to look at that, but my question is
20 actually different.
21 Q. Mr. Peric, when you answered "that's when they had already broken
22 through that part," my question for you now is: What did you mean by
23 "that part"? What part are we talking about? What segment did you mean?
24 A. That segment was the road behind Bijela Bridge that takes you to
25 Jasenjani, and then it connected with a straight road to Bijelo Polje.
1 Jasenjani-Ravni-Bijelo Polje, that road existed before the war. Another
2 road that was there was the Bijela-Jasenjani road. There's a small
3 section that went straight across the fields and meadows and some
4 woodland, but then a new junction was made linking it up with the
5 existing Bijelo Polje road. This is a textbook example of a bypass, if
6 you know what I mean. The road was shifted in order to make sure that
7 traffic continued smoothly. And I described for your benefit already
8 what types of vehicles could be used on those roads and were, in fact,
10 Q. And I followed up with:
11 "How do you know that?"
12 And your answer was:
13 "Well, I know that -- I know that part of the road was used.
14 This was a section of the road that was broken through later."
15 Again, can you clarify for us what section of the road was broken
16 through later, and when is "later," when?
17 A. The Jasenjani-Ravni section of the road was broken through. I'm
18 not sure what time or what day. We are sure about that because suddenly
19 a lot more weapons for the BH Army started pouring in, and the intensity
20 of their firing increased. They were targeting us more and more. What
21 this meant to us is that there was ammunition coming in, since there was
22 a blockade further south. They could not have any weapons delivered to
23 them, or ammunition, for that matter, from Metkovici to Mostar. They had
24 to get it through Jablanica or else Bojic from positions held by the VRS.
25 It was far likelier that they had broken through that section of
1 the road, thus managing to get more supplies of ammunition from
2 Jablanica. Knowing what amount of work was required to achieve anything
3 like that, we were convinced, and this proved true after the war, that
4 that was what they had, in fact, done. They achieved maximum possibility
5 all the way from Jablanica to Mostar, without the need to change cars
6 along the way.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, I'm sorry. First, the passage in the
8 transcript is page 43, line 4, and I think it's -- my recollection was
9 correct. But I wonder whether, if you want to continue on this
10 "breakthrough" matter, whether it would not be very helpful if you could
11 again show him the map that you had so that the witness can actually show
12 where it is. I must confess I'm not quite clear by just listening to
14 MS. WEST: Thank you. We can do that.
15 Q. Mr. Peric, if you can go to P11145. It's the map that we looked
16 at earlier.
17 A. I can't see any sort of map here.
18 Q. Mr. Peric, why don't you turn in your binder and go to P11145.
19 Oh, excuse me, I don't think you have it. I think we took it, so I'm
20 going to give you mine for these purposes.
21 So this is the map we looked at earlier, and you were just -- you
22 were discussing the issue of the breakthrough. And I asked you what part
23 of this area was broken through. Can you look at this map and take a pen
24 and circle the section to which you were referring?
25 A. This is a very small scale. It's very difficult to see that
1 segment. Whatever I circle will be very rough. Can you just look where
2 it says "Jasenjani," and then "Lojpuri," is not really a village; it's a
3 hamlet belonging to Ravna village. You see, this is as far as the
4 asphalt road goes from before the war, and then we have this little creek
5 going towards Jasenjani over there. And then right next to it --
6 Q. Mr. Peric, let me interrupt you. You spoke before about a
7 breakthrough. I want you to take a pen and show us on the map which area
8 you said that they had broken through. Do your best.
9 A. [Marks] That's the best I can do.
10 Q. Okay. So can you put an A next to that, and can you tell us when
11 it is that they broke through?
12 A. [Marks] Sometime between July and late August, that's what I
13 reckon. They had plenty of opportunities to do that.
14 Q. Okay. And so -- your -- the basis of your knowledge for this is
15 not because you saw them do it, correct, it's because you suggest that
16 they were then better supplied; is that correct? Is that the basis of
17 your knowledge?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you then spoke about a section of the road that was
20 broken through later, and can you tell us where that section of the road
21 is? Look on the map and point it out.
22 MR. KHAN: And, Mr. President, whilst that's being done, perhaps
23 the map could be turned around so one isn't looking at it askance, as it
24 were. It would be rather helpful to have it the right way on the ELMO.
25 MS. WEST:
1 Q. So, sir, now we're talking about a section of the road that was
2 broken through later.
3 I think for these purposes, in order to have the witness mark on
4 it, it's going to have to face him.
5 So if you could look at that map and mark on the section of the
6 road that was broken through later.
7 A. [Marks] I've marked it. It's here.
8 Q. Okay. So now you've clarified that --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.
10 Witness, to avoid any misunderstanding, because, as I see it,
11 back in July and August 1993 the Muslim side restored this road and made
12 it usable by car, so as of September 1993 you can drive on that road; is
13 that right?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MS. WEST:
17 Q. And, Mr. Peric, to just make sure that we're all talking about
18 the same thing, the road that you're talking about now, is this the road
19 that you were talking about earlier that went around Bijelo Bay
20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a correction to
21 the interpretation. The interpretation we got was "Bijelo Polje,"
22 whereas the Prosecutor, in fact, said "Bijelo Bay
23 witness is clear on what he's being asked to do.
24 MS. WEST: Thank you.
25 We have a question pending.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, from what I
2 understood, when he marked the letter A on the path, now, is the path in
3 your map, because that's the map you produce, which is the blue line, and
4 when we look at the caption, we see "back road;" do we agree on that?
5 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I understand that the -- when I asked him
6 to put the A, it was just so later we know that that little mark he --
7 the black mark he put on the road is the A. I believe it doesn't -- it's
8 not talking about the blue path. But perhaps he could clarify.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, for me it's the blue
11 Witness, there seems to be some confusion. When you put -- when
12 you drew this short black line with the A next to it, was that on the
13 blue path? Did you put it on the blue path?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that I was asked to
15 place an A on the section of the road that was later on broken through.
16 Now, since it's too small on the map, I moved the letter A a bit. So
17 that's what I understood I was asked to do, to mark the part of the road
18 that, from July to August, was broken through. But I moved the A a
19 little bit to the side so you could see the area, because it's all too
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may also try to understand. This morning,
23 Mr. Praljak asked you whether it was possible, coming from Mostar,
24 reaching the place where the Bijela Bridge
25 passable for a certain time, one could drive around this bay, north, and
1 then back the other way. And you said, Yes. So that road apparently was
3 Then Ms. West showed you the alternative road, which is blue.
4 And at one point this alternative road does not quite reach, according to
5 the map as I read it, does not quite reach the end of the bay. Now, does
6 the breakthrough consist in making a link from the blue alternative road
7 to the road that was pre-existent around the bay or is it something else?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, now we've understood.
9 Connecting the blue path to the road that existed until that time and
10 which cut the journey from Jablanica. It was a short-cut and an easier
11 road to take.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So, in fact, you agree that my interpretation is
13 correct, that I have understood you correctly?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems that you're the only one
15 who's understood what I said.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, that's at least one. Thank you.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.
18 Q. And so now that it's clear, then, just confirm to me: To go
19 around the bay, to go around the Bijelo Bay
20 that is the M-17; isn't that correct?
21 A. The black line, yes, has gone into the bay, Bijela Bay. The M-17
22 passes -- it goes from the beginning of the bay, across the bridge, and
23 it joins on to the M-17. It's a smaller, narrow road. It joins the
24 M-17. And if you drive in that direction and turn right, you'll reach
25 Jablanica without any problem. And you can't turn left, anyway, because
1 that's where the bridge was destroyed.
2 Q. Okay. So let's just wrap this up. Say we're in Jablanica, we're
3 at the top of this light blue line, and we come down and we go all the
4 way to where you just put the black line about the breakthrough, and you
5 take the short-cut and you break over and you go down alongside the bay,
6 and then you get on the black line on the M-17 and you go south,
7 Mr. Peric, will you agree with me, then, this route that you've been
8 talking about going into Mostar is actually going by -- via the M-17?
9 A. I can't see how you're going to turn south from this road, from
10 Bijela Bay
11 Jablanica. Now, if you want -- if you're going to go towards Mostar,
12 then it's the other way around. From Jablanica, then you go to the road
13 at Bijela, you cut across Ravni, and you go down this blue road, road
14 marked in light blue, although there are quite a lot of other ones, too.
15 So if you know which road to take, you can get there faster, and that
16 takes you to East Mostar.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peric. I think that -- if you can just clarify
18 this for us. In order to get to this breakthrough from the bay, from
19 where the bridge used to be but then was not, you have to travel the
20 M-17, do you not? You have to get on the M-17 to go up the bay. And if
21 you're on the M-17, then you're susceptible to HVO firing?
22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I want to intervene for a
23 moment, because I've been noticing all day long -- I've been sitting here
24 with my headset kind of off and listening to translation and listening to
25 the courtroom at the same time. Throughout the day, throughout all
1 morning, there has been audible comments coming from the other side.
2 Mr. Praljak just did it now in a way that could be heard across the
3 courtroom, and that is completely inappropriate. It has been going on
4 all morning. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, no comments,
6 please. Let Ms. West do her job, and let the witness answer.
7 Continue, Ms. West.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. West, as it seems that I'm the one who
9 understands: Witness, if you come from Jablanica, you can, of course,
10 come on the M-17. Then you come to the place where the Bijela Bridge
11 used to be, and you cannot go on, on the M-17. You turn left, and you go
12 up along that small bay. And when you are all the way in the back of
13 this bay, thanks to the new breakthrough you can now get on the road
14 which is indicated in light blue and which takes you almost to Mostar, or
15 towards Mostar, at any rate, in a way that is not the M-17, but is the
16 alternative route. Is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, sir. I've been trying to
18 say that all day. We're moving around that same route all day, but we
19 don't seem to be -- well, I can't understand that she can't understand
20 what I'm saying.
21 If you're going to Jablanica, you'll reach the bridge at Bijela,
22 which has been destroyed. She'll go left on this bypass and turn on to
23 the light green line drawn in here, which represents one of those lines,
24 and will reach East Mostar without having to switch cars, to transfer
25 from one car to another. I've been saying that all day, and I don't seem
1 to be making myself clear. But I don't see where the problem is. How
2 can you not understand that?
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Correction, Witness.
4 On line 20, you say "if you are going to Jablanica." What you
5 meant is "if you are coming from Jablanica"?
6 THE WITNESS: Perhaps it was the wrong interpretation. I'm sure
7 I said "if you go from Jablanica." Maybe the interpretation was wrong.
8 I don't know.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, I think you've run
10 out of time, I think.
11 Mr. Registrar, could you tell us how much time is left?
12 One minute, one minute.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. So, Mr. Peric, just to wrap this up: If you're able to take that
15 car all the way down the blue line into Zalik -- excuse me, to the Zalik
16 neighbourhood and to East Mostar, when you earlier testified that the
17 very beginning of this light blue line was impassable, how do you suspect
18 somebody is going to get that car into East Mostar?
19 A. When did I say that you couldn't take the light blue line to go
20 to Mostar? Did I say that? I keep saying that you could use that road,
21 that you could arrive taking that road. So tell me when you said you
22 couldn't, or the interpretation's wrong.
23 Q. Sir, earlier today I showed you the aid to this map, and we spoke
24 about the first 500 metres, and then we spoke about the next 500 metres,
25 and then the next 500 metres, and then the next 18 kilometres. Don't you
1 remember indicating that there was a 500-metre section that was not
2 passable for cars?
3 A. I did say that, yes. That doesn't mean that they used that
4 section. They used the M-17, because on the other side of the
5 Neretva River
6 BH Army, so I see no reason why someone would take the mountain route if
7 the M-17 was open and under their control. Now, you keep referring to a
8 couple of kilometres up there. All I said was that there was the
9 possibility for that, there was that option.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. --
11 A. But whether they used it, no, they did not.
12 Q. Thank you, Peric. But would you agree with me that the M-17 was
13 so close to the HVO confrontation line that it was susceptible to HVO
15 A. No, there wasn't that danger, and it didn't happen. Not a single
16 BH Army soldier was killed by an HVO bullet.
17 MS. WEST: I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, any redirect?
19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour, but I hope to
20 get through them quickly, relatively quickly.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] You told us, Witness, that no HVO Army soldier
23 was killed because he used the road north of Mostar in the direction of
24 Jablanica. Tell us whether any civilians were killed, perhaps, because
25 they might have been on one of those roads north of Mostar, in the
1 direction of Jablanica.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, the document with
3 an A, do you need an IC number for it?
4 MS. WEST: Yes. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This second marked version of
7 document P11145 shall be given Exhibit IC01156. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.
9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Peric, let me ask you again. Did it ever happen that a
11 civilian was killed on any of the roads running from Mostar in the
12 direction of Jablanica, to the north?
13 A. I don't know that that ever happened, but I do know that a -- one
14 of our captured soldiers were killed by the BH Army, and he was taken
15 from Mostar to Bijelo Polje every day for trench-digging. That we do
16 know, and you can read about it in the reports, the reports about those
18 Q. You said a moment ago, Witness, when speaking about breaking
19 through at Jasenjani, the road there, you said that you knew that the
20 road had been broken through because the BH Army had greater quantities
21 of ammunition, you felt that there was more intensive fire on the part of
22 the BH Army, hence more ammunition, and then you said that after the war
23 you, yourself, saw these newly-built roads. When you were asked again by
24 the Prosecutor as the source of your knowledge about the breaking through
25 of this road, the answer was suggested that you must know that because of
1 the information you received about greater quantities of ammunition that
2 reached the BH Army, and that is why I would like to ask you the
3 following: When the conflict ended with the BH Army, did you establish
4 or learn that that section of the road through that way to Jablanica was
5 actually broken through? Did you see that, yourself?
6 A. A lot of the things I'm saying, I'm saying because I learnt later
7 on in talking to people who were my adversaries until yesterday, my
8 neighbours, but we still talk normally to each other. We haven't severed
9 our communications, our links. And they told me the soldiers from the
10 BH Army who had switched sides from the HVO and gone to join the BH Army,
11 they told me about that.
12 But I was asked how I knew then that the road was broken through.
13 We assumed that it had been broken through because they knew the lay of
14 the land and that it didn't represent a great problem. You only needed a
15 dredger and could break through that way. And we concluded they had
16 actually done that, succeeded in doing that, judging by the intensity of
17 the firing.
18 Q. All right. And later on, all this was confirmed by your
19 colleagues who were Muslims; is that right? Have I understood you
21 A. Yes, you have. After the war, I say.
22 Q. Very well, thank you. Now let's try, briefly, to clear up some
23 of the loose ends, some of the details.
24 Towards the end of your examination, when Judge Antonetti,
25 I think, asked a question -- no, it was at General Petkovic's
1 intervention, when it was cleared up that duty shifts lasted until about
2 8.00 a.m.
3 about this and it was recorded on page 18 of the transcript, and there
4 was no doubt at all that shifts lasted until 8.00 a.m.
5 So tell us now, please, Witness, at the beginning of our
6 discussion yesterday, did you consider that you clarified this point,
7 that your duty shift ended at 8.00 a.m. and that there was no need to say
8 that on that day, the 9th of May, 1993, you were no longer the duty
9 officer because your shift was over?
10 A. Well, I was very explicit on that point, and now I'm wondering,
11 myself -- asking myself the question of why I'm speaking if nobody is
12 listening to me, if nobody wants to hear me. You shouldn't have brought
13 me in here in the first place. Everything that I've said has -- attempts
14 have been made to turn it around.
15 I have come here to help the honourable Trial Chamber and to help
16 the person that called me as a Defence witness, but I seem to have placed
17 myself at the disposal of the Prosecution for them to ask me what I know
18 about, what -- there's no point in me telling you what other people told
19 me, because you could reach those people directly and have them tell you.
20 But when I give an opinion, I don't see you asking me what my opinion is
21 for me to be able to tell you.
22 Q. Mr. Peric, there's been a lot of information, and please rest
23 assured that all of us in this courtroom are trying our best -- are doing
24 our best to understand you, and that's why we are clarifying certain
1 Now, tell me, when General Petkovic arrived at the Main Staff in
2 the early hours of the afternoon of the 9th of May, 1993, you told us
3 that you received a request telling you to try and establish contact with
4 Mr. Pasalic, and you also told us that that request you did not get
5 directly from General Petkovic, but that it was conveyed to you by a
6 certain individuals. So please tell us now the first and last name of
7 that particular individual.
8 A. It's my chief for communications.
9 Q. What was his name?
10 A. Jure Zadro. Do you need more explanation as to why that
11 happened, how it came about?
12 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm sorry to disturb you during the very last
13 minutes, but I would like to note that Mr. Peric has stated a few minutes
14 ago that, There is no point in me telling you, et cetera, about the
15 problems, because nobody is listening to me. I believe that I have to
16 point out that it is not a correct way of putting your opinion here. You
17 cannot know who is listening to you and who is not, in the first place.
18 And, secondly, no doubt that there are a great number of people here who
19 are interested in listening to your explanation and positions.
20 Thank you.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Prandler.
22 I think that the witness realises that, but he probably didn't use the
23 right words to express himself.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Peric, could you briefly explain to us why Jure Zadro
25 conveyed this request, telling you to call Arif Pasalic?
1 A. Because he was the chief of the Communications Department; my
2 immediate superior, in other words.
3 Q. Thank you. And who was the person from your subsection who
4 mostly communicated with General Petkovic?
5 A. It was the chief of the department.
6 Q. Zadro; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Peric, you were asked about UNPROFOR
9 vehicles moving from Jablanica towards the south, and in one of these
10 vehicles there was Arif Pasalic inside. Now, you were shown documents,
11 and you were told that the vehicles were stopped at a check-point at
12 Vrapcici. My question to you now is this: If you are travelling from
13 Jablanica in the direction of Mostar, and you're stopped at Vrapcici, and
14 you wish to continue your journey south, do you have to pass through
15 East Mostar?
16 A. Yes, you do.
17 Q. Tell me, please, East Mostar, that night, between the
18 8th and 9th of May, 1993, was it under the control of the BH Army?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Very well, thank you. Now, Mr. Peric, do you happen to know that
21 the BH Army -- whether the BH Army or any of its commanders at any point
22 in time wrote reports, mediated, informed people as to whether
23 Arif Pasalic was in Dracevo and that he couldn't return from Dracevo to
24 Mostar, and all because of the HVO's conduct? Did you ever hear of
25 anything like that happening?
1 A. No, never.
2 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Peric, in response to a question about the
3 destruction of Mostar, you compared Mostar to Vukovar and Sarajevo. It
4 is a thankless task to compare towns and cities that have been destroyed
5 in a war, but His Honour Judge Trechsel asked you how come you know how
6 Vukovar and Sarajevo
7 I'm going to ask you whether you ever saw footage of or pictures of
8 Vukovar destroyed, the destruction in Vukovar.
9 A. Yes, frequently.
10 Q. And did you also see footage of the destruction of Sarajevo?
11 A. Certainly more times than I saw Vukovar being destroyed.
12 Q. Very well. Now, my learned colleague Ms. West showed you a
13 document, and you can just listen to me - you needn't look at it - P4822.
14 4822, that's right, and it's a report -- a UN report about the events in
15 Mostar in May 1993, and there was mention of HVO attacks -- alleged
16 attacks on Eastern Mostar, then 200 to 400 shells falling, and so on and
17 so forth.
18 Now, I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph 26 of this
19 document, which was used and presented to you. Now, the person who
20 compiled this report says this is information from government sources,
21 obtained from government sources.
22 Now, tell us, if an international observer defines its local
23 sources in that way, does that mean the government in Sarajevo or the
24 Muslim side in the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
25 A. Yes. Whenever you say "government sources," it means Sarajevo
1 because they saw Sarajevo
2 government in Sarajevo
3 Q. Witness, do you know what Mostar looked like after the war with
4 the Serbs in Mostar, and then also how the Serb artillery continued to
5 pound Mostar? Do you know what Mostar ended up looking like because of
6 the pounding by the Serb artillery?
7 A. Yes. I crossed Mostar quite a number of times at the time.
8 There are many photographs and quite a lot of footage showing the extent
9 of destruction. We may as well say that it was the same amount of
10 destruction as in 1995, and you can tell that if you look at the footage.
11 Was there any further destruction that was wreaked when the BH Army and
12 the HVO shelled each other? Yes, there was some more, but in no way
13 particularly striking. The old part of Mostar, the east part of Mostar,
14 was destroyed on the 19th of June, 1992. When I first arrived, it was
15 destroyed already, the 19th or the 20th.
16 Q. Mr. Peric, the Prosecutor asked you about the clashes in Mostar
17 on the 5th of May. She put to you the following theory: The Croats
18 accepted the Vance-Owen Plan. There was a BH Assembly meeting scheduled
19 for the 10th of May, where they were supposed to take a decision
20 regarding the acceptance of the Vance-Owen Plan by the Muslims, as one of
21 the warring sides. The Croats then launched an attack in Mostar in order
22 to exert more pressure on the Muslim side to accept the agreement. Do
23 you remember that hypothesis that was put to you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. If I remember correctly, you answered it would have been
1 illogical for the Croats or anyone else to jeopardise a plan that they
2 had already agreed to. Can you please comment on the following
3 hypothetical situation or theory which I'm about to put to you:
4 The BH Assembly is scheduled to take place on the
5 10th of May, 1992. There are certain factions within
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina that are not on the same frequency as
7 Alija Izetbegovic, who in late March 1993 had signed the Vance-Owen Plan.
8 For this reason, they are trying to bring about fierce clashes with the
9 Croats in order to show to everyone how impossible it was to co-operate
10 with the Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 How about this kind of scenario, sir? Does that look plausible
12 to you? Does it look likely or possible?
13 A. If you really want my opinion, yes, I think that is a distinct
15 Q. My last topic. We won't be dealing with the roads, but --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Speed up, do speed up, because
17 we are already going towards 15 minutes over time now.
18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I'll take no
19 more than two or three minutes.
20 The documents that the Trial Chamber has seen or -- just listen
21 to me, Mr. Peric. The first document is 4D719, which is a report of the
22 4th Corps of the BH Army. Among other things, it talks about
23 communications in and around Mostar. It reads:
24 "A huge problem for the command of the operations group is posed
25 by the transport of civilian population and everyone else marching north
1 and south. It is, therefore, necessary for the civilian authorities to
2 take charge of the transport of civilians."
3 Q. Based on your knowledge, Mr. Peric, were the civilians physically
4 able to leave East Mostar if they so desired?
5 A. Yes, they would have been able to leave and head on to Sarajevo
6 at any point in time.
7 Q. The report goes on to state:
8 "The problems are huge regarding transport of the wounded and
9 everyone else into the town of Mostar
10 It also talks about how necessary it is to fix an APC to be used
11 at night-time.
12 Witness, based on your information, and based on such statements
13 as were used during your examination-in-chief, do you know anything about
14 the fact that the wounded were brought in to the Mostar hospital or,
15 indeed, that prisoners, for example, were taken to perform labour
16 anywhere outside East Mostar? Do you know anything about that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Just another detail from this document: It says that firewood
19 for bakeries is being brought into Mostar on a daily basis, and then the
20 bread is taken out of Mostar towards Bijelo Polje.
21 What about the communication between Bijelo Polje and Mostar?
22 According to you, what you knew about that, did it go on operating
23 smoothly all this time following June 30th, 1993, which we believe to be
24 of a [indiscernible] intention?
25 A. Yes, it was operating like that. It reads that bread was being
1 driven out of Mostar, not carried. I think that shows what you're trying
2 to say.
3 Q. So it's precisely along this segment on the way into East Mostar
4 in relation to which Ms. West put it to you that one could only walk, but
5 not drive?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. The last document and my last question: 4D545. This is an
8 excerpt from Esad Sejtanic's book, "Herzegovinians at the Fiery Gate of
10 this particular line of communication:
11 "The situation in Mostar, itself, and around was becoming more
12 and more difficult. Famine was rife. The little food that got into
13 Mostar from Jablanica and Glogova was being distributed in meager
14 rations. A large number of the inhabitants still wanted to leave and go
15 to Jablanica and then further into Bosnia. Unfortunately, we had to take
16 repressive measures to prevent the population from leaving and to reduce
17 all movements to a bare minimum."
18 Mr. Peric, did you ever hear anything to the effect that the
19 military commanders of the BH Army were keeping civilians from
20 East Mostar from leaving Mostar if they so desired?
21 A. Yes, I know about that.
22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my
24 Thank you very much, Mr. Peric.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your testimony has now come to
1 an end, Colonel. I want to thank you for coming to The Hague to testify,
2 on behalf of my fellow Judges. Sometimes you have the impression -- have
3 had the impression that you were misunderstood, but I can assure you that
4 you were listened to at all times. So I thank you for your testimony,
5 and I'll ask the Usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just address the Court very
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry, it can't be
10 Mr. Kovacic, you have two minutes. You wanted to intervene.
11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 It's really difficult for me to ask for another two minutes at
13 the close of business, but we have no choice.
14 On the 30th of November, 2009, this Trial Chamber was kind enough
15 to allow us to reply to the five responses filed by the other parties in
16 this case, their responses to a documentary motion. You ruled in our
17 favour and gave us a dead-line, which was the 14th of December. We are
18 still trying to abide by that dead-line.
19 Nevertheless, we have been facing certain problems in the
20 meantime. The problems, themselves, would not have kept us from abiding
21 by the dead-line, but as you know, the Prosecution has lodged an appeal
22 in relation to the provisional release of General Praljak.
23 Now we are facing a huge dilemma: How do we prioritise? One
24 priority would be we have to respond to that appeal as quickly as
25 possible to keep things running smoothly. The other priority was the
1 dead-line that we were given. We would like to please ask the
2 Trial Chamber to give us another two days and change the 14th to
3 the 16th, to set a new dead-line for two days later. I don't think
4 there's any prejudice to the other party, and I don't think the Chamber
5 will be ruling the very next day.
6 That is my request and my motion. Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After discussing the matter,
9 the Trial Chamber is granting you two additional days. So the dead-line
10 is now 16th of December for filing your submissions.
11 As you know, this is going to be our last hearing day in 2009.
12 We shall reconvene in January, so let me use this opportunity to wish you
13 all a very happy festive season and to gather forces for the months to
14 come, because we'll be in the last leg of this trial by then. So this
15 was my wish to all of you.
16 I think we'll resume on Tuesday [as interpreted], the
17 11th of January, at 2.15.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
20 January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.