Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 48717

1 Thursday, 21 January 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

7 call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

9 everyone in and around the courtroom.

10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11 Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

13 This is Thursday, January 21st, 2010, and I greet our accused,

14 Defence counsel, all members of the OTP in the courtroom, and everyone

15 helping us.

16 I believe that the Registrar has some IC numbers for us. He has

17 the floor.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That's true, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 4D has submitted their response to the Prosecution's objections

20 to their list of exhibits tendered through Witness Vinko Maric. This

21 list shall be given Exhibit IC01162. The Prosecution has also submitted

22 their response to 2D and 4D's objections to their documents tendered via

23 Witness Vinko Maric. This list shall be given Exhibit IC01163 and 01164

24 respectively. Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

Page 48718

1 Mr. Kruger, you have the floor. I believe you had something to

2 say.

3 MR. KRUGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

4 everybody in and around the courtroom.

5 Your Honour, simply to introduce a new member of the Prosecution

6 team, whom you'll see sitting in court with us today.

7 Ms. Jelena Vladisavljev has joined us, and she recently completed her

8 studies at the Novi Sad -- legal studies at the Novi Sad University, and

9 she's with us for a few months as an intern. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I greet her on behalf of

11 the Trial Chamber, and I wish her the best during her internship with the

12 OTP.

13 Mr. Praljak, you have the floor.

14 WITNESS: RADMILO JASAK [Resumed]

15 [The witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

18 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to all in the

19 courtroom.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, I also wanted to

21 say that I forgot to greet our witness.

22 Colonel, good afternoon. I hadn't forgotten you in thought, but

23 it's not on the transcript, so I believe it has to be noted.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak: [Continued]

Page 48719

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Brigadier Jasak.

2 A. Good afternoon, General.

3 Q. Let us finish our discussion concerning Mr. Misic.

4 First question: Was he a charismatic person, in a way, in

5 respect to the resistance that was being built up in Mostar?

6 A. Yes, General, he was a charismatic person of the resistance

7 against aggression.

8 Q. Tell me, sir, when was he killed and how? Do people know how he

9 was killed?

10 A. General, my commander, Tihomir Misic, was killed on the

11 16th of May, 1992, while touring positions that were held by Croats and,

12 on the other side, Muslims. I know that firing started from the

13 positions that were held by Muslims. That's what was said. I was

14 present during the post-mortem, and I saw that there were four different

15 types of ammunition in the body of my late commander.

16 Q. Is it correct that this gentleman was well liked both among the

17 Croats and the Muslims as one of the initiators of the resistance in

18 Mostar?

19 A. General, that is absolutely true, because in that area where the

20 Old Bridge is, where we held positions, we had these people from Mahala

21 there who were personally armed by Tihomir Misic.

22 Q. How did that piece of news resound in Mostar?

23 A. It caused a great shock in Mostar, concern as to how we would

24 defend ourselves now.

25 Q. What was I at that time for Mostar and Capljina?

Page 48720

1 A. Commander of the operative zone.

2 Q. Have we ever met, Mr. Jasak?

3 A. Yes, General.

4 Q. Tell me, was the murder of Mr. Misic ever fully investigated?

5 A. General, I have no knowledge to that effect; namely, that that

6 murder was fully investigated.

7 Q. Let me put it this way: During those days in Mostar, how many

8 casualties were there in Mostar because of the bombing? Please tell

9 Their Honours who is attacking, who is bombing, how many wounded there

10 are, how many killed persons there are, and so on and so forth.

11 A. Your Honour, at that time, from the positions of the

12 Army of Republika Srpska, there were shellings every day from Slipcici at

13 the town of Mostar. There were many casualties among soldiers and

14 civilians.

15 Q. All right. Let us go back to that road. You mentioned the road

16 across Goranci. Is that the only road through which one could leave

17 Mostar; is that correct?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before talking about the road,

19 let me return to the subject of Tihomir Misic.

20 I might have misunderstood because you were speaking extremely

21 fast, but I thought I understood that he died on May 16, 1992, whilst he

22 was touring or inspecting the lines, and, at the time, he was with

23 Muslims and he was shot at. Is this what happened? And according to

24 you, he was shot at from the Muslim lines. I would like to know whether,

25 when he was killed, he was escorted by Muslim soldiers of the Mostar

Page 48721

1 Battalion. Were they alongside with him?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on that day

3 Mr. Misic -- well, our battalion command was in his house. He said to me

4 that he needed to go and get something done at the university. He had no

5 intention of inspecting the front-line. It was customary for us to go

6 together when the front-line was being toured. He went to the staff, and

7 what was said was that there were some problems. I heard that later from

8 Drago Misic, who was also a battalion commander at the time. Then a

9 group of Croats and representatives of the Muslims started touring the

10 front-line there, and according to my knowledge, he was killed by bullets

11 that had come from positions that had been held by Muslims. They later

12 confirmed, themselves, that they had been firing, and that is what I

13 know.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm very interested

15 by this detail. You were saying that it is when he was touring the line

16 with Croats and Muslims that he got killed. You said that you attended

17 the autopsy and you noted that four different calibres of bullets hit his

18 body. And you said -- maintained that the shots came from the Muslims.

19 Here we've seen a large number of documents coming either from the

20 international community or the HVO or the BH Army, where there is always

21 mention of extremists, extremists within the HVO, extremists within the

22 BH Army, and in many documents we have mention of these extremists. This

23 very tragic event, notably for Mr. Tihomir Misic, might let us conclude

24 that he was killed by Muslim extremists who were unhappy with the role he

25 was playing and decided to shoot him on May 16, 1992.

Page 48722

1 As a detail, you said that you attended the autopsy and you noted

2 that there were four different calibres, different calibres of bullets.

3 How did you know that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the post-mortem was

5 carried out at the Health Centre in Siroki Brijeg with regard to the

6 wounds that were on his body. The medical team established on that

7 occasion that the wounds were caused by 7.9-millimetre bullets, then a

8 7.62-millimetre bullet, then shrapnel, and some other type of ammunition

9 that was a bit bigger, perhaps coming from a hunting gun. The autopsy

10 also established -- or, rather, they probably noticed someone who had

11 fired at him, or, rather, that the deceased had seen someone trying to

12 shoot him and he probably tried to protect his face, and that is why

13 there were wounds only on one side of his hand.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about extremists, but, sir,

17 I'm going to ask you about something that's even worse than extremists;

18 namely: What do you know about the activities of the KOS, the infamous

19 Counter-Intelligence Service of the former Yugoslavia, and the other

20 secret services of Yugoslavia that were prevalently run by Communist and

21 Serbian countries?

22 A. As for the Counter-Intelligence Service, we know that they

23 infiltrated their agents among all people. I think that their wish was

24 to sow discord between the Croats and the Muslims in order to conquer the

25 area more easily.

Page 48723

1 Q. Mr. Jasak, let's take an example. 1992 -- well, we'll be going

2 back to 1991 as well, and the situation in Mostar is the way it is, and

3 we'll see what it's like. But, anyway, at one point in time, someone

4 sent information to these self-organised groups and said that they needed

5 to have a commander. What was the name of that commander?

6 A. The groups in Mostar?

7 Q. Yes, these battalions and whatever. Who was sent or appointed,

8 in a way? Who became the so-called commander, lieutenant-colonel?

9 A. Of the Municipal Staff, Jasmin Jaganjac.

10 Q. No, no. Before me. Not Jaganjac --

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. If this is something the Chamber

12 should hear, you must slow down, you must make a pause between question

13 and answer. It sounds as if I said something new. Please.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I must have lost my senses

15 if yet again I could not remember to do that, Your Honour Judge Trechsel.

16 Q. Before me, Witness, there is another name, Lieutenant-Colonel --

17 what was his name?

18 A. General Perak, Vladimir.

19 Q. Vladimir Perak. Is it correct that at one point in time, as

20 commander of the staff, Mr. Perak ordered both the army and civilians to

21 leave Mostar? There was shooting, and the order was to abandon Mostar;

22 is that correct or not?

23 A. That is correct. That was at the very beginning of the month of

24 April. The order was that all soldiers and civilians get out of Mostar,

25 and then, subsequently, Mostar would be re-taken by military means.

Page 48724

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me if I interrupt. I'm a bit lost, I

2 must say.

3 At one point, Mr. Praljak asked about KOS, and you answered that

4 they infiltrated all and aimed to divide the Croats and Muslims in order

5 to conquer the area more easily. I take that from the transcript. Who

6 was going to conquer which area?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, KOS, the

8 Counter-Intelligence Service that was serving the Serb people -- or the

9 Serb aggressor, rather. That is to say that they were looking for the

10 right kind of people among the Croats and the Muslims to conquer or take

11 the area more easily.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So it would rather be the Serbs and the JNA that

13 would conquer the area; is that correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all these forces; that is to

15 say, the JNA and these volunteers who held Mostar under siege.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Good. And that Mr. Perak was a Serbian leader,

17 I take.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour,

19 Judge Trechsel, no. Please, please.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. I'm asking the witness. I cannot

21 ask you. I'm asking the witness. Who was Mr. Perak? Was he a Croat?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think he was a

23 Croat, but he had been infiltrated by the KOS, since he was appointed

24 head of the Croats, the HOS [as interpreted] in Mostar. Quite simply, he

25 cropped up as a person who wanted to help. As a lieutenant-colonel of

Page 48725

1 the Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA, he had crossed over to the Croatian

2 side.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you, that makes it a bit clear. Thank you

4 very much.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Line 23 says "HOS" in Mostar with

6 an H. The witness is talking about KOS, K-O-S.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] KOS, K-O-S, the

8 Counter-Intelligence Service.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. The first question. The Counter-Intelligence Service worked

11 within which organisation?

12 A. The JNA staff.

13 Q. Ah. Secondly, we claimed that Perak was a Croat, that he had

14 come from the Yugoslav People's Army, and that he became commander of the

15 forces in Mostar, and that he ordered that Mostar be abandoned. Have we

16 not established all of that?

17 A. We have established all of that, and that is absolutely correct.

18 Q. Did you obey him, Mr. Jasak?

19 A. General, that order of his, that was received in the

20 early-morning hours via radio, well, I personally had that Motorola. I

21 woke up Tihomir Misic, and I said to him that this was something very

22 strange. Very soon, we both agreed that that was not a good thing, and

23 we did not transmit his order to the army. We thought that the other

24 people from that staff were probably in danger and that something very

25 bad was happening. Then we went to Cim, and up there we found

Page 48726

1 Petar Zelenika and the others who were from the Municipal Staff. We

2 asked what was going on.

3 Q. All right. You didn't obey him?

4 A. We didn't obey him.

5 Q. You refused to carry out an order?

6 A. That's right, General.

7 Q. Where did Mr. Perak flee to after that, and where did he live

8 after that, and where is he still living, unless he died?

9 A. To the best our knowledge, after that he lived somewhere in

10 Serbia.

11 Q. That's your answer concerning KOS, but had you obeyed Mr. Perak,

12 whose army would have entered Mostar, whose citizens would have been in

13 Mostar, who would have had control of Mostar?

14 A. The Serbian Army would enter and to take control of Mostar. In

15 other words, they would hold the whole of Mostar under their control.

16 Q. Very well. Let's go back to 1991. You said that volunteers had

17 come, and the reservists from the Podgorica and Uzice Corps. Can you

18 please describe to Their Honours how it was in Mostar? Were they walking

19 around town, were they shooting, were they causing disturbance? Could

20 anyone do anything to appease them? How was the situation in Mostar in

21 1991 and early 1992?

22 A. Your Honour, at that time they held all the positions, all the

23 peaks and hills around Mostar. There were frequent clashes with the

24 civilian police. They used to drink at cafes. They would often leave

25 without paying. There was firing often taking place. They knew, on

Page 48727

1 their way to the positions, just to enter any shop and take whatever they

2 want without paying. There was tremendous fear among all the people.

3 Q. Did you, Mr. Jasak, and all the other people watch news at the

4 time? Did you know what was happening in Croatia at the time, what was

5 happening in Vukovar, Split, Zadar, Dubrovnik? Which army was attacking

6 whom there, who was killing whom, who was shelling whom, et cetera? I'm

7 talking about 1991. Did you know anything about that?

8 A. Yes, we did. The attacker was also the Serbian Army. They were

9 attacking towns in Croatia and killing people.

10 Now that you have mentioned Dubrovnik, those were the forces from

11 the same corps, that's to say the Titograd Corps, that were shelling it,

12 and they were shelling it - I mean Dubrovnik - from the area of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Did anyone say anything to the citizens? Did any authority from

15 Sarajevo, from Mostar, the government, the presidency, did they instruct

16 them how to behave against this brutal force? Don't mention "army" now.

17 Let's see how ordinary people felt and what the leadership was telling

18 them. Who was leading ordinary people?

19 A. Ordinary people and citizens were left on their own. If you

20 understand that Ravno was burned down in October 1991 by this very same

21 army and that the official government, that is to say, Alija Izetbegovic,

22 said, This is not our war, therefore there was panic everywhere and there

23 was no organising initiative coming from the level of authorities.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, I'm listening to what

25 you are saying with great care. You are talking about official

Page 48728

1 authorities. Yes, there are the official authorities, those located in

2 Sarajevo. But as far as you know, weren't they Yugoslavian official

3 authorities, because in 1991 Yugoslavia still existed? What do you think

4 about that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Yugoslavia did exist.

6 But what kind of a state would be that is sending its own army against

7 its own people? Although the village of Ravno was in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

8 it was in Yugoslavia as well, and it was completely burned down and

9 people were killed. In other words, this state of Yugoslavia didn't care

10 about this. And the same applies to Bosnia-Herzegovina. Nobody took

11 care about those people, and that is what happened.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, we are not lawyers, and we are told not to deal with these

14 matters, but let me ask you this: From the position of Yugoslavia and

15 the JNA, all these Muslim and Croat groups in Mostar were perceived as

16 al-Qaeda, Tupamaros, Sendero Luminoso, Taliban. Those were insurgents

17 against a regular state that had the right to kill its own citizens as it

18 pleases because there was insurgency. How did you, as citizens, resolve

19 this issue in your own minds, legally and in every other term?

20 A. We solved this in a very simple way. The only important thing

21 for us was to organise ourselves and to try to save our lives. We did

22 not attack anyone.

23 Q. So you could see that aeroplanes were taking off from the airport

24 on Mostar. Do you know where they went? Were they armed with rockets?

25 Were they dropping bombs? Were they killing anyone? And if they were

Page 48729

1 killing anyone, who was it?

2 A. Yes, the planes took off armed with bombs and rockets and were

3 killing the Croats in Croatia.

4 Q. In the spring of 1992, what happened with Ljubusko, Grude,

5 Siroki Brijeg, Imotski, et cetera?

6 A. At the time, the facilities in Grude, Siroko [as interpreted],

7 and Ljubusko were being shelled by the Yugoslav Air Force.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. Just a little specification.

9 You said that bombs fell and killed Croats in Croatia. That was

10 in Croatia, not in -- I'm sorry, I didn't notice you talked about

11 Croatia. They didn't kill Muslims, did they?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was going on in

13 1991, while there was war in Croatia, while an overall war did not break

14 out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they were at the airport at the time. The

15 military airports in Bosnia-Herzegovina were used for planes to take off

16 to go to Croatia and to kill the population there.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's right. The population, I mean, that's

18 probably mostly Croats, but also in Croatia they were mixed ethnically,

19 mixed communities. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. That's the Mostar Airport, and in 1992 they were flying over

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those places where they dropped those bombs that

23 were outside any military important area, were there any dead women,

24 children, and men?

25 A. Yes, there were women and children and men who were killed,

Page 48730

1 because residential buildings were hit as well. I know specifically a

2 residential building in Grude, at the very entrance to Grude, was hit,

3 because that was my municipality and I know that best.

4 Q. Do you remember whether the HQ in Grude was killed

5 [as interpreted] at Duhauska Stanica?

6 A. Precisely the HQ at Duhauska Stanica and the building I already

7 mentioned. This whole quarter of the town was shelled. And this

8 station, Duhauska Stanica, was cut off by one floor.

9 Q. I'm not going to go into this legal issue, but in October 1991

10 Slovenia and Croatia declared independence, and consequently Yugoslavia

11 ceased to exist. Were you or anyone else ever invited by anyone from

12 Sarajevo in any way whatsoever to tell you exactly and precisely what to

13 do in the event or during such an aggression, apart from your group and

14 apart from the fact that I later came and did things? But I'm talking

15 about official instructions.

16 A. We have never been invited to attend any meeting by any official

17 authority.

18 Q. In 1992, in April or May, what was happening in Mostar? What is

19 the extent of the shelling? How many buildings were devastated? How

20 many dead people were lying on the streets? Was that discriminate or

21 indiscriminate shelling?

22 A. The whole town was being shelled indiscriminately and in every

23 possible way; that is to say, already in April and May.

24 Q. I'm not going to ask you what happened after that because we know

25 that, more or less. Let me just ask you this: Let's finish this issue

Page 48731

1 of the road. How many local people who lived there during the war,

2 according to your estimate, how many of these people fled because of fear

3 and took their women and children with them?

4 A. Many people -- many local people fled to Croatia or to any third

5 country, wherever they were able to find shelter.

6 Q. And then who came to Mostar and where from?

7 A. Whoever came from Mostar could only have come via Goranci.

8 Q. With the arrival of the Army of Republika Srpska from Nevesinje

9 and Bilica, who was forced to come into Mostar?

10 A. The Muslim civilians from Nevesinje, Gacko, Trebinje, Bilica, and

11 all these areas were forced into Mostar.

12 Q. Mr. Jasak, can you please tell Their Honours this: The vehicles

13 that were travelling along this road, were they a permanent target of

14 attacks by the Serbian artillery from all sides? And according to what

15 you know, how many people died or were killed on that road?

16 A. I know that this road, because there are many curves and one had

17 to slow down, people were forced to drive during night without their

18 headlights. Therefore, many people were killed on that road, because

19 those curves were being fired at from the Hum Hill by the 76-millimetre

20 gun with direct hits. So this 76-millimetre gun was able to fire very

21 precisely like a sniper rifle, as they chose. They were firing all the

22 time, and any trip in or out of town was very unsafe. Not

23 7.62 millimetres, but rather 76 millimetres.

24 Q. Two more brief questions. At the time, who was the commander of

25 the attacking army, that is to say, of the JNA and reservists that were

Page 48732

1 attacking Mostar?

2 A. It was Momcilo Perisic.

3 Q. And the second question: After this treason by Perak and all the

4 other things, can you tell the Chamber, when I came there, and let's take

5 this as a hypothesis, if I issued an order to you and your late commander

6 wouldn't agree with it, who would you listen to, to Mr. Misic or to me?

7 I'm talking about that time.

8 A. Mr. Misic, without a doubt.

9 Q. Tell me why.

10 A. Because I had been with him from Day 1, because I had complete

11 trust in him, because there was already treason committed by Perak.

12 Therefore, I had full confidence -- or we had full confidence in our

13 commander whom we had chosen, and he was our commander.

14 Q. And then someone who was appointed as I was, you would then start

15 obeying him not because he was appointed to that position but because he

16 would deserve your confidence? Would that be the reason for you to later

17 obey his orders?

18 A. It was very important to establish confidence in this new

19 commander and for us to be demonstrated that he is at least as equally

20 brave as our commander. So once the confidence is there, we would obey

21 his orders only if and when he deserves -- or his orders deserve to be

22 obeyed.

23 Q. I apologise to everyone in the court, but I have to say this:

24 Mr. Jasak, tell me, did I at least partly deserve this confidence because

25 I took this road via Goranci several times during day-time, risking my

Page 48733

1 life?

2 A. Yes, that was the most decisive factor because you were one of

3 the few people who came into Mostar at that time and you were not a

4 native of Mostar.

5 Q. I would like this to be understood only as a clarification of

6 complicated relations in command and control, because I never spoke about

7 this ever before this trial.

8 Mr. Jasak, let's talk about the issue of control a little bit

9 more.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, earlier

11 General Praljak mentioned Dubrovnik, and the question of dates is maybe a

12 little blurry for those who may not be familiar with the history of the

13 region and the time-line. You must be very familiar with this because

14 you're now a top officer in the Croat army.

15 Now, in 1991 - that was mentioned in a decision of this Court, so

16 I'm not inventing this - was there a referendum -- would there have been

17 a referendum in Croatia, particularly on 19th of May, 1991, and what was

18 the result of this referendum in Croatia, and what was the referendum

19 about?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia's independence.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So 90 per cent voted in

22 favour of independence. What had happened a few months prior to that in

23 Krajina? Does that ring a bell?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were some barricades,

25 and this sort of Republika Srpska Krajina or something was being

Page 48734

1 established.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. What about the

3 Serbian Republic of Krajina; was it established on

4 28th of February, 1991?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was around then. I

6 don't know.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. What about the

8 Croatian Parliament; did it vote the independence of Croatia on the

9 25th of June, 1991?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. As far as you know,

12 what about the month of August 1991, that is to say, two months after the

13 declaration of independence; didn't the Croats attack barracks of the JNA

14 in Croatia?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were attacks, and

16 weapons were being taken for defence purposes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. So you said that

18 the Croats attacked to take weapons. The United Nations, what about the

19 United Nations; do you know when the UN recognised the independence of

20 Croatia?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, was it?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Did you know what

23 month it was?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think February.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, no, it was in May 1992.

Page 48735

1 Now, before the month of May 1992, before the month of May 1992,

2 according to you, in Dubrovnik, was Dubrovnik part of Yugoslavia, of the

3 federation, the socialist republic, or was Dubrovnik a part of Croatia,

4 the Croatia which was only recognised in May 1992? And so in 1991, was

5 Dubrovnik Yugoslavian or was it Croatian?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dubrovnik was always a Croatian

7 town.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said it always was.

9 All right.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Let's clarify some things. Do you remember that Iceland was the

12 first country to recognise Croatia officially sometime in 1991? Do you

13 remember that?

14 A. As soon as Croatia proclaimed its independence.

15 Q. Yes, as soon as independence was proclaimed.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry, Mr. Praljak. I think we should remain a

17 bit close to the indictment, and I cannot, for the life of me, see any

18 interest of the fact that Iceland was the first country to recognise

19 Croatia in the context of the case we have to try. Could you perhaps

20 ponder this and concentrate on matters that are relevant.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour,

22 Judge Trechsel. We have all been debating the fact whether a country's

23 sovereign and independent when it declares its independence or when it

24 stages its referendum, and when things are proclaimed by the Parliament,

25 or whether we should have waited to be recognised by others and admitted

Page 48736

1 into the UN, but let's not go that way. Let's talk about control, which

2 is a subject important for us. We've already seen some parts of that and

3 how that looks like.

4 Q. Mr. Jasak, let me start with yourself. Did you, with any

5 sanctions whatsoever -- were you in a position to take a suitcase, a

6 backpack, and you and your parents, could you go towards the western part

7 of Europe, wherever you wanted to, depending on how much money you had or

8 whether you had relatives in Germany?

9 A. Yes, I could do that.

10 Q. Could any man do that, depending on their will and abilities,

11 without any sanctions?

12 A. Yes, they could.

13 Q. Could Mr. Prlic, could Mr. Stojic, Pusic, and others, Coric,

14 Petkovic, could they leave?

15 A. Yes, everybody could.

16 Q. Therefore, in that area and in those groups, people who stayed

17 were exclusively those who wanted to do so, who voluntarily stayed on; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's absolutely correct.

20 Q. And at one point some of those groups decided that they would go

21 under the name of the HVO; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct too.

23 Q. And that applied to groups in Tomislav, Livno, Ljubuski,

24 Tomislavgrad, anywhere in the territory that the other armies did not

25 manage to take because we had fought with them; is that correct?

Page 48737

1 A. Yes, it's correct.

2 Q. And once the war was over, was anybody punished for having left

3 the territory, for having fled, or left, or whatever you want to call it,

4 and had refused to be mobilised? Was anybody punished in any way for

5 that?

6 A. No, nobody was ever punished for having abandoned the territory

7 at one point.

8 Q. And, Mr. Jasak, later on during the war, likewise, was there a

9 man or a group of men who could throw their arms, take off their

10 uniforms, and take one of the hundred passages leading up to the

11 Republic of Croatia? Was anybody sanctioned, and what sanctions were in

12 place?

13 A. Everybody could leave without any sanctions.

14 Q. And what about the arms that you had; did anybody in the state of

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, any of its bodies, did anybody bring those arms

16 to you and did they tell you, Okay, line up, you are now mobilised, this

17 is your equipment, this will be your training-grounds, these are your

18 commanders? Did any such thing happen, anything that would look like

19 some sort of orders that the Honourable Judges know from their own

20 states?

21 A. Nobody ever did any such thing.

22 Q. Sir, now we are going to deal with two more matters. I have two

23 maps of Mostar. I don't know whether to ask you whether to mark the

24 positions of the Serbs.

25 I'm asking the Judges whether they need that or not.

Page 48738

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, that all depends on the

2 questions you intend to ask.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've already

4 asked the witness about the positions and where they were in

5 1991 and 1992, and he gave me the names of all those places. I don't

6 know whether you want those places marked on the map or whether you

7 already know that.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how my

9 colleagues feel about it. In my personal capacity, it is extremely

10 important to know where the Serbian positions were. Why is that?

11 Because in the irrefutable documents from the international

12 community -- I'm not referring to the HVO documents or from the BH Army

13 documents, I'm referring to the documents of the international community

14 which mentioned during the time of the indictment that the Serbs were

15 shooting, firing, and therefore that must be taken into account. I mean,

16 I take that into account.

17 So if you have a map, have it put on the ELMO and ask the witness

18 where the Serbian positions were.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we now please see

20 3D22 -- 3D22 -- no, 3D00730. That's one of the maps from the set,

21 3D22-0375.

22 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] This is IC00031, the second map.

23 The IC number is 00031.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well. That's the

25 first map. Well, never mind.

Page 48739

1 Q. Sir, Mr. Jasak, the Usher is going to give you something to write

2 with, and you will show us Velez Hill. Velez Hill -- please mark

3 Velez Hill by number 1.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Very well. Encircle the whole hill and put number 1 next to it.

6 A. The whole thing here.

7 Q. And could you please just approximately mark the position of the

8 repeater? It doesn't really matter whether you pin-point it precisely or

9 not.

10 A. I believe that it was more to the right.

11 Q. So it's off the map?

12 A. It's off the map, yes. This is Hum Hill.

13 Q. Mark that hill by number 2.

14 A. [Marks]. Orlovac. [Marks]

15 Q. Orlovac. Stop, stop, stop. Now, tell us, please, number 2 and

16 number 3, were those artillery positions jointly held by the JNA and the

17 Army of Republika Srpska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Orlovac is number 3. What about Fortica, where is that?

20 A. It's here. [Indicating]

21 Q. Encircle Fortica. I didn't see you do that.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Very well, thank you. And now put number 4 next to it.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And now put a letter T, standing for "Top," T-o-p, which is

Page 48740

1 "cannon." Or you can put a letter C next to the positions of their

2 artillery. Could you put letter K, standing for "cannon."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. What about Bijelo Polje and Vrapcici? Did they have control over

5 that area and where from? Put number 5 next to the area around Bijelo

6 Polje and Vrapcici, number 5 around that circle. Thank you.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. What about North Camp, number 6.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Did they have mortars at number 6?

11 A. Yes, they did.

12 Q. The Serbian Army?

13 A. Yes, the Serbian Army, they did.

14 Q. Put letters MB.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And in this map, we can also see the only road leading out of

17 Mostar. Can you just show us that direction and mark with an arrow?

18 A. It was from here towards Goranci [Indicates]. No, this is not --

19 no.

20 Q. Just give me the arrow in that direction, pointing in that

21 direction.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. So that was the direction of the only road that led out of

24 Mostar. Thank you very much. Put today's date and your initials.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 48741

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to ask an additional question,

2 Witness.

3 This situation is true for which point in time?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The time reference is the end of

5 1991 and the beginning of 1992.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very precise, when was the right bank of the Neretva liberated?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank

9 you for your contribution and the markings on this map at the request of

10 my colleague. You said that it was at the end of 1991 and then in 1992.

11 What I'm interested in is Mount Velez, the Velez Hill, and what you've

12 indicated in A. My understanding is that the Serbs were there. Now, in

13 March 1993, were they still there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were up on Velez in 1993.

15 However, here, Your Honours, I would like to have a precise topographic

16 map. Then I could give you very precise information. This is very

17 visually orientated because Velez is a bit to the right from here.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Velez is more to

19 the right.

20 According to you, and please listen carefully because, I mean,

21 personally this is a question of the utmost importance, an extremely

22 important question: In your knowledge, and it is all the more important

23 that you're the last witness of the Petkovic Defence, and despite the

24 fact that there will be another witness between you and Mr. Petkovic, but

25 in theory you were planned to be the last witness, and then there will be

Page 48742

1 Mr. Petkovic, and, of course, I can always ask him the question, but you

2 are neutral because you are a simple witness.

3 Now, please listen carefully, because I'm not going to spend

4 hours asking questions. One question to the point which synthesizes many

5 different issues: The guns of the Serbian artillery which were located

6 in Velez, even though on the map you said that you'd need a topographic

7 map, according to you, how many kilometres away were they from Mostar,

8 East Mostar, West Mostar; how many kilometres, roughly.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was some

10 10 to 15 kilometres. It really depended.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say 10 to 15 kilometres.

12 As far as you know, do you think that a gun which is 10 kilometres

13 away -- let's say that we have a gun that's 15 kilometres away. You said

14 it was 15 kilometres away. So do you think that a gun which is 15

15 kilometres away can shell East Mostar or West Mostar?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you look at Fortica

17 and the mortars there, I mentioned both mortars and cannons, in 1993, if

18 we're talking about 1993, they were a bit further -- they were a bit

19 further from Fortica. Now as I'm looking at the place where I put

20 number 4, I know from this number 4 to Ilici, as the crow flies, we were

21 around there, and it was some 20 kilometres or so. The distance was

22 about 20 kilometres or so, their cannons, their artillery.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, please listen

24 carefully. This is what I would like to know: As far as you know, you

25 were working for Military Intelligence until August 1993, so I would like

Page 48743

1 to know the following: Can a mortar or an artillery gun, a Serb mortar

2 or Serb artillery gun, shell Mostar, the city of Mostar? It's a very

3 simple question, but I believe that the consequences are tremendous.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know that in 1993, a

5 Serb shell could reach and, indeed, did reach West Mostar, and I know

6 that for a fact.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If it could reach

8 West Mostar, could it also reach East Mostar?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it could.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is all I

11 wanted to know.

12 Mr. Praljak, the Registrar is telling me that you have used

13 45 minutes so far. I know that you had 30 minutes, and the Prlic Defence

14 gave you their 30 minutes. In such a case, you have 14 minutes left.

15 But I know that the counsels for Defence had some questions to put, so I

16 don't know -- your counsel also had questions to put, so how are you

17 going to share that time?

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll go on

19 until I finish some of my questions, and then we'll see where we stand.

20 Let's clarify some things.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. First the

22 Registrar must give us a number for this map, because we've lost track of

23 things.

24 Mr. Registrar, we need an IC number.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] One moment.

Page 48744

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have something else to add?

2 Go ahead, Mr. Praljak. You say that you want to use up all of your time.

3 I mean, you are the ones giving instructions to your counsel. You know,

4 an accused can give instruction to his counsel, of course, which means

5 that if Ms. Pinter runs out of time, well, it's too bad for her because

6 you will have used up all the time for yourself. That's the way it

7 works; right?

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 Q. Here's a very simple question, sir. Number 4 in the map,

10 Fortica, even after 1992 and 1993, was there an artillery position of the

11 Army of Republika Srpska there? And I'm talking about a mortar,

12 76 millimetre.

13 A. Yes, there was an artillery position there.

14 Q. We can easily see how far that is from anywhere else, and we will

15 not talk about that.

16 The second question, sir: Judge Antonetti asked you whether the

17 Serbian artillery could hit West Mostar. Would East Mostar be even

18 closer to the Serbian artillery than West Mostar?

19 A. East Mostar is closer.

20 Q. So if they could hit Western Mostar, they could also hit

21 Eastern Mostar; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. I apologise. I should finish. Yes, okay, that was that.

24 And now let's look at the next map, which is IC0031 --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we'll give a number to

Page 48745

1 this map.

2 Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The marked version of document

4 3D00730 shall be given Exhibit IC01165. Thank you, Your Honours.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] IC00031 is the next one,

6 please.

7 Q. Let me tell you straight away, Mr. Jasak, this is the southern

8 part of Mostar. First we were looking at the northern part of Mostar,

9 and now we are looking at the northern part of Mostar and almost the

10 whole of southern Mostar.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, no, this should be

12 changed. IC00031 is the one that I asked for. It's already an exhibit.

13 3DT -- I don't know.

14 Ms. Pinter, please help.

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I said that that was the IC00031.

16 That's the IC number. Now we have it.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, now we have it. It's

18 upside down. There we have it, yes.

19 Q. Please disregard the inscriptions on the map, and again could you

20 do the same thing as you did before? First of all, could you please mark

21 Velez once again? Velez and Fortica as well.

22 A. There you have them, Velez --

23 Q. And circle the entire mountain. Encircle Velez.

24 A. But now it's the other way around. It's completely upside down.

25 I have north in the left and now I have south in the upper part. I don't

Page 48746

1 know how I should be looking at it.

2 Q. We're looking at the map as if we were in the north. Do you see

3 the airport? Take your time, find your bearings. Can you put number 1,

4 please?

5 A. Okay, that's -- I understand now. [Marks]

6 Q. Can you now mark the Southern Camp? Use the letters JL.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And now could you please mark Hum? Put number 3 next to Hum.

9 A. Just a moment.

10 Q. Yes, that's that.

11 A. It's completely upside down.

12 Q. Could you please mark Orlovac.

13 A. Orlovac, number 4. [Marks]

14 Q. Mark Velez, mountain Velez.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Completely, completely. Circle it completely. Velez is a big

17 mountain. Okay. That was number 5. And now could you please mark

18 Fortica on Mount Velez and put number 6 next to it, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And now could you please show us where the repeater was and put

21 number 7 next to it?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And now mark the position of Heliodrom and put number 8 next

24 to it.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 48747

1 Q. Now Sokol and Glinica. Sokol will be number 9. Glinica will be

2 number 10.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. No, no, no, no, no. To the right from number 8 is Sokol, of

5 course. Just take your time.

6 A. This is 9 and this is 10, then.

7 Q. Okay, well.

8 A. And in the middle is Heliodrom.

9 Q. Just roughly, where was Cula, the big transformer, electricity

10 transformer facility somewhere around Hum?

11 A. Here, I think.

12 Q. Okay. Put number 11 next to it. Never mind.

13 And now, Mr. Jasak, tell us, please, first of all, let's identify

14 the date when we chased those units away from the right bank of the

15 Neretva to the left of the Neretva. So when did we liberate the right

16 bank? Could you please show us -- we see the Neretva flowing here.

17 Could you please show us the direction in which the Neretva flows, and

18 put an arrow next to West Mostar. Could you please show us where

19 West Mostar was, and can we have an arrow marked with a W, and then

20 East marked with an E.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. There you go. And now tell the Trial Chamber what was the date

23 when we liberated the right bank of the River Neretva.

24 A. The right bank of the River Neretva, we liberated it on the

25 11th of June, 1992.

Page 48748

1 Q. And the east bank?

2 A. A few days later, on the 14th and the 15th.

3 Q. June?

4 A. June 1992.

5 Q. And now please tell us, where on Velez -- on what positions did

6 the Army of Republika Srpska stay throughout the entire time? Which

7 positions did they hold, Fortica, Podvelezje, and others, where were they

8 throughout the entire war and even before and after the conflict that

9 started between the HVO and the BiH?

10 MR. KOVACIC: I'm suggesting that maybe Usher could give another

11 colour to the pencil. I believe we have it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like this? [Marks]

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. VRS, write that.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And my last question as regards this map: On oppositions from

17 this front-line, on one side and the other side, could they have their

18 artillery and did they?

19 A. They could have artillery, and it would be hard for me to mark

20 their artillery now because this is not a topographic map so I cannot do

21 it accurately.

22 Q. The last question in relation to this map. Throughout the war,

23 even during the conflict between the Muslims and the Croats, did Serb

24 artillery hit the right and left bank of Mostar whenever they wanted to

25 in order to cause a conflict between the two sides and also because they

Page 48749

1 liked it?

2 A. They were firing at Mostar all the time, and that is contained in

3 our reports from the VOS service, that is.

4 Q. Do you know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina paid the Serbs to

5 hit us when they would start attacking? You were in the VOS. Did you

6 know that?

7 A. We were aware of such information. I mentioned that earlier on.

8 They also procured weapons from them, and I even think that that attack

9 on the 9th of May, that at that time also this was shelling that had been

10 ordered or commissioned.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could I please have an IC

12 number for this map, and could you mark it?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar will give you an

14 IC number. And I have a very simple question to ask you after that.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the marked version of IC00031 shall

16 be given Exhibit IC01166. Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, three of the four

18 Judges that you have here on the Bench have been to Mostar. We know the

19 area, we're familiar with the area, so we know what the topography is

20 like. You, in red, you gave us an indication of where the VRS was

21 located, and you said that this applied for 1993. I note -- and if I'm

22 wrong, please tell me. I note -- what is the map -- why has it

23 disappeared? I'm asking you a very important question, and everything

24 disappeared simultaneously. It's all gone.

25 Registrar, could we please recall the map with the markings. My

Page 48750

1 question -- I have to put my question with the map, with the marked map

2 on the screen. Very well, now it's back on the screen.

3 In this courtroom, everyone can see this map, including the

4 Prosecutor. Everybody can see that in 1993, according to the witness,

5 anyway - I wasn't there in 1993, but the witness was there at least until

6 August - well, he says that in 1993 the Serb positions were as marked on

7 the map in red. I note that right under these Serb positions, we have

8 East Mostar, where the Muslims resided at the time.

9 Witness, from the Serb position as we see it on the map, was it

10 easy to shoot at East Mostar?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was easy to fire

12 wherever they wanted to fire, including East Mostar.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That was my

14 question.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would -- with your permission, I would like to

16 ask a few questions with regard to this allegation that the ABiH paid the

17 Serbs for shelling the Croats. In a simplified way, I put it. For what

18 time-span would that be the case?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no way of

20 knowing which shell was paid for and came from Serb territory or Muslim

21 territory. I don't know how long that lasted.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Maybe there was an error in translation. I did,

23 of course, not ask about any single shells.

24 You have confirmed that the Muslim side, ABiH, gave money to the

25 Serbs in exchange of the Serbs shelling the Croats, and I would like to

Page 48751

1 know to which period in time you are referring. Is this between 1991 and

2 1995, or only in a part of that period, and which one would it be?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only meant May/June,

4 roughly, 1993, somewhere around then.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. And a question you have been asked

6 frequently. How do you know? On what is your answer based? Have you

7 seen documents? Have you spoken with people who paid or with people who

8 received payment?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is based on the knowledge that

10 we received from the field and that was contained in our reports.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So it is intelligence that you gathered from the

12 enemy side surreptitiously?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is information

14 that we, that is to say, our personnel, gathered on the ground and

15 submitted that to VOS. VOS did have such information available.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can you be a bit more precise about the volume

17 of the payment, the link between payment and shelling? Was it, for

18 instance, I order 50 shells on Podhum and I'm prepared to pay

19 20.000 Deutchemark, something of that? Do you have such precise

20 information?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our information was

22 only that they paid a lot of money for that. I cannot say exactly how

23 much, but I know that it was very expensive, on the basis of the

24 information that we had.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

Page 48752

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I have two more documents that I would like to deal with quickly,

4 and then I'll deal with yet another question.

5 3D00420, have a look at that. Have you found it?

6 A. Yes, I've found it.

7 Q. Take a look. This a decision on the formation of

8 Territorial Defence units that was signed by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic on the

9 27th of May, 1992. My first question: On the 27th of May, 1992, was the

10 entire population of the eastern part of Mostar expelled or, rather, had

11 they been expelled 10 days earlier?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. By who?

14 A. The Army of Republika Srpska or, rather, the Serb forces.

15 Q. Were there any casualties then? Were people killed, wounded?

16 A. There were people who were killed and wounded, and we know that

17 whatever had stayed on, as far as the military component is concerned,

18 these people were trained at our military centre in Goranci. We took

19 them in.

20 Q. Everything we heard about the 27th of May, 1992, was -- well, you

21 see the president of the Presidency is establishing a territorial

22 defence. First of all, this Krajl Tomislav Brigade, with

23 General Mate Sarlija Daidza, as its command, is that the first -- I'll

24 repeat the question slowly.

25 This unit and General Sarlija, were they a unit of the

Page 48753

1 Croatian Army up until then?

2 A. This unit, as a volunteer brigade called Krajl Tomislav, did

3 exist in Croatia, and Mate Sarlija Daidza was its commander. And this

4 brigade stopped the breakthrough of the Serb forces towards Dubrovnik and

5 Cene Kuca [phoen], that is to say, their breakthrough towards the sea,

6 the coast. That is the unit that had stopped that.

7 Q. Now, there are 39 commanders here. First of all, tell me -- have

8 a look at this. Is there any locality here from Herzegovina,

9 East/West Mostar, Ljubuski, Tomislavgrad --

10 A. Sarajevo.

11 Q. -- Prozor, Jablanica? Is there anything here that has to do with

12 what the HVO has already fighting? The HVO was fighting well and

13 strongly. Can you find a single locality where it was the HVO that was

14 fighting?

15 A. I've had a look at this, and I cannot find a single locality

16 where the HVO was operating; only Brcko, Tuzla, TO --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. There are no units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there

20 is no need for him to be appointed in an army that is defending

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that is fighting well and properly; is that the

22 explanation for this document?

23 A. That is the absolutely logical explanation of this document.

24 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at document P04 --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it may not be crystal

Page 48754

1 clear for a people who need to have a long explanation before they

2 understand. I mean, this is a document which I see for the first time.

3 Personally, I did not know it until now, so I'm finding out about it.

4 And within just a few seconds, I must have a quick look at the 39 names,

5 39 brigades, to know whether there are TOs in the Croatian zone. You

6 say, No. Well, of course this is a big problem, because this is a

7 document dated from May 1992, the president of the Presidency himself

8 signs it, and he creates the Territorial Defence, i.e., the territorial

9 defences for all of the territories in the republic. And here,

10 obviously, some are missing. So couldn't an explanation be that at this

11 time, in his mind, the territorial defences in which Croats are located

12 are enough, and he didn't think that it was necessary for him to include

13 them because, according to him, they were legal and it was pointless to

14 quote them? What do you think about that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the only logical thing

16 for me here is the following: In those areas that are not included in

17 this decision, there is already an impeccable defence that is in place

18 and that all necessary activities had already been taken.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the perfectly or

20 well-organised defence, that the measure was the HVO?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

23 Mr. Praljak, as you know, we are only going to take one break

24 today. It's almost time for the break.

25 We are going to take now a 20-minute break. Please see with your

Page 48755

1 counsel how much time you have left, to avoid any problem. And

2 apparently it looks like you are getting close to one hour already.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, here's a

6 decision of the Trial Chamber.

7 As you know, the Prosecution has recorded a filing about the

8 granting of time that it requests for the cross-examination of

9 Witness 4D-AA. In other words, the Prosecution would like to have two

10 hours as a whole, in total. Because of that, the Trial Chamber would

11 like to ask Defence counsels to inform it of their positions prior to

12 Wednesday, 27th of February, 2010, midnight.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We are just working on

14 that, and it will be filed before -- on Wednesday, at latest. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Secondly, regarding the time

16 allocation, I'd like to thank the Registrar for his calculations. The

17 Chamber had granted three hours to the five teams of counsel. Three

18 hours, that's 180 minutes. Divided by 5, that is 36 minutes per team.

19 So Mr. Praljak had the 36 minutes at his disposal, because the

20 Prlic Defence gave him his 36 minutes. Because of you've already used up

21 51 minutes, Mr. Praljak, you have another 21 minutes left from this very

22 moment, so for you and Ms. Pinter.

23 So, Witness, I only have one follow-on question, if I may. The

24 question is complex and the Trial Chamber in its decision will say --

25 mention the dates recognition of Croatia and so on. But for our

Page 48756

1 understanding, did you know that on the 15th of January, 2002, in Zagreb,

2 there were ceremonies about the 10th anniversary of the international

3 recognition, ceremonies presided over by the president of your republic,

4 Mr. Mesic, and that during that day, the 15th of January, 2002, there was

5 one coin of 25 kuna which was made about the recognition of the

6 European Union the 25th of January, 2002? So apparently your authorities

7 state the date of recognition as the 15th of January, 1992, if I refer to

8 this event, given that General Praljak was right in saying that Iceland

9 was the first one to recognise -- did recognise Croatia, but it was not

10 the first country, it was Slovenia on the 26th of June, then came

11 Lithuania, and Iceland recognised it on 19th of December, 1991.

12 So did you know, Witness, that your authorities had an official

13 ceremony on the 15th of January, 2002, saying that it was a celebration

14 of the 10th anniversary of the recognition by the European community?

15 Maybe you know it, maybe you don't.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one cautionary note, Mr. President. If you

18 could speak a little slower.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but I felt that the

20 witness speaks French.

21 So did you understand the question, sir? Otherwise, you know,

22 I can repeat it to you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood your

24 question in general, and I am aware that it is necessary to celebrate a

25 recognition by the UN, but I also don't think that the

Page 48757

1 Croatian Parliament did not take a decision that was not legitimate and

2 that was not based on the 1974 constitution.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Yes, absolutely.

4 Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Praljak, over to you.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, we said -- P06482, it's a document, and there was one

8 question unresolved relating to a meeting held on the

9 7th of November, 1993, in Tomislavgrad. Do you recognise my signature,

10 Mr. Jasak?

11 A. Yes, I recognise your signature, General.

12 Q. Is it abundantly clear from this document that by virtue of my

13 right to convene this meeting, I did convene it for the 7th of November?

14 A. Yes, it is apparent and obvious from this document.

15 Q. Mr. Jasak, you left for Zagreb. Can you tell the Judges, did you

16 forget that you hailed from Mostar after you moved to Zagreb? Did you

17 call us by telephone? Were you interested in what problems we were

18 having and facing? Did you remain in Mostar spiritually?

19 A. Not only spiritually. I used to come to Mostar from Zagreb

20 nearly every weekend because my girlfriend at the time lived in Mostar.

21 That is to say, I came to Mostar nearly every weekend.

22 Q. How many children do you have with this girlfriend of yours who

23 is now your wife?

24 A. We have five children, and that girlfriend of mine is my wife

25 now.

Page 48758

1 Q. Mr. Jasak, given the problems of the functioning of a state - let

2 us not go into the problems dealing with electricity, water supply,

3 et cetera - isn't something completely natural for a commander to convene

4 a meeting with his subordinate commanders and personnel and tell them

5 exactly what needs to be done in order to avoid losing a war? Isn't that

6 something which is completely natural and normal; maybe not in the

7 US Army, maybe not in the Foreign Legion; but in the situation that

8 prevailed at the time, wasn't that an only logical and correct approach?

9 A. I said the same thing yesterday. I can absolutely understand

10 that. I didn't know it was you who convened that meeting, but now I

11 realise that that was the most natural thing to do under the

12 circumstances.

13 Q. Look at another thing, please. Is this addressed to the

14 Convicts Battalion?

15 A. No. It clearly says that this is to -- addressed to the

16 commander of South-Eastern Herzegovina Military District;

17 Western Herzegovina Military District; and two professional units,

18 Bruno Busic Regiment and Ludvig Pavlovic Unit.

19 Q. We're finished with this document. And now, Mr. Jasak and

20 Your Honours, please understand me. We need to clarify the system of

21 communication and the possibility of eavesdropping. I also refer to

22 Paket communications. Mr. Jasak is also a mechanical engineer, but I

23 would be most happy to put me in the dock and to question me about how

24 the whole situation was, but regrettably things are not going the way

25 that I would like to see them going. I would like the truth to come out,

Page 48759

1 and I will try now to resolve certain issues with Mr. Jasak.

2 Regardless of where the Main Staff and their headquarters was,

3 was always a room with a device that is called Paket communications

4 device. Can you describe it for the Chamber?

5 A. It's a computer and a Hamm operator's radio station.

6 Q. A Hamm operator's radio station means that -- does it mean that

7 roughly between 144 and 146 megahertz frequency is being used, that is,

8 two metres of the wavelength?

9 A. Yes, two metres' wavelength.

10 Q. Slowly, slowly. So 144 to 146 megahertz frequency; and

11 wavelength, two metres.

12 A. Two metres.

13 Q. Now, these frequencies are used by old [as interpreted] Hamm

14 operators. They listen to each other, and they are using Morse code to

15 communicate with one another?

16 A. Yes, that's right. And it's the same today.

17 Q. Right. Now, what is the difference? Can one say that this is a

18 relatively secure communication line? Because, you know, one can easily

19 listen to Hamm operators. You can just change the entry impedance. Was

20 it actually the computer that was the crucial part?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. So this computer converts a written text into a digital signal

23 and it adds certain numerals, so it is dispatching bits like 000111,

24 et cetera; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 48760

1 Q. Now, this digital system of conversion of what we want to

2 transmit is much more difficult to detect than the analogue system?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And if, in addition to that, we do the encryption through the

5 computer by adding additional bits under the code known only by the

6 sender and the receiver, then we have considerably well protected our

7 message; is that correct?

8 A. Absolutely, because the enemy could receive a message, but it was

9 useless because they couldn't decipher it, since it was encrypted.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: A question of the transcript, please, before it

11 disappears. If you look at page 43, line 2, we read that:

12 "The frequencies were used by old Hamm operators."

13 I suspect that what you wanted to say and perhaps said was "all

14 Hamm operators." I invite you to speak up so that it comes into the

15 transcript, because even if you nod in a very friendly way, as you just

16 did, the paper will not take it.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for you,

18 Honourable Judge, to finish, because if I interrupt you, you are going to

19 criticise me again.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That might be a point, but I had, in fact,

21 finished.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, I said all Hamm

23 operators used that, even today, et cetera.

24 Q. Of course, would you agree with me, Mr. Jasak, that on the

25 opposite side that is listening in, there is an American or a French

Page 48761

1 service of detection trying to break our code with very powerful computer

2 programmes? Were they able to do that in about 20 hours?

3 A. Yes, if you have extremely powerful technology, it was possible.

4 Q. But on the opposite side there were people who didn't have such

5 powerful computers capable of processing extremely quickly the data

6 received and of breaking the code under which we were sending our

7 messages; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. But, nevertheless, we managed that once a month, change the code

10 in all those stations at an agreed time; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is. If the conditions were regular, this was changed;

12 but if there was a case of a station being captured, the code was changed

13 immediately.

14 Q. Okay, let's move on. Let's say in Mostar someone sends a

15 message. Oh, let's establish one more thing.

16 And in this message you have lower-case letters, upper-case

17 letters, colons, commas, and full stops, and these signs were converted

18 into a signal, which only makes it clear that no signature could have

19 been transmitted in that way; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let's move on. In that room in Mostar, you said there was a

22 Paket communications system. Was there the same system existing in the

23 zone where Lasic was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there one in Grude?

Page 48762

1 A. Yes, in the brigade.

2 Q. In the brigade. Well, but for some reason somebody from

3 Central Bosnia can, by using the repeater, send a message to Mate Boban

4 more easily by coming to this control room and use this device that is

5 housed at the HQ. What will the person who receives such a message do?

6 Is he going to put a stamp on this message received from the staff and

7 say, Received?

8 A. Yes, that's what he would do. And then he would put this message

9 in an envelope and deliver it to the office of President Boban, who was

10 at Rondo, where Mr. Vucina, who was the head of his office, was also.

11 Q. Yes, that was my next question. This message, therefore, didn't

12 go to the chief of the Main Staff, or the commander of the Main Staff, or

13 to the Main Staff at all; it goes, rather, to the recipient, just like

14 any other letter. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. So if we would receive a message in a Main Staff addressed to

17 His Honour Judge Trechsel, we would convey or deliver this message to him

18 without reading it?

19 A. Yes, it will be put in an envelope, a sealed envelope, and it

20 would be addressed to the Judge. And the only persons who had the

21 opportunity to see it were the operator. It would not go to the office

22 of the chief of Main Staff.

23 Q. So we have settled this question now.

24 We have seen documents here in which you say -- or we were

25 listening in to one side --

Page 48763

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have --

2 Mr. Praljak, sorry, still has a few minutes. I'd like to ask the

3 question now, not afterwards, because afterwards he will no longer be in

4 a position to ask further questions.

5 Now, you were in this building on the ground floor. There's a

6 plan, a map. Ms. Alaburic talked about it. You -- we know where you

7 were located. Now, when you were there in that building, did you see,

8 from July and August, Mr. Praljak come and sit down in that office, in

9 the office of the head of staff? Because another witness before you said

10 that there was a secretary. Did you see Mr. Praljak come to that office,

11 to the Main Staff?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time when

13 Mr. Praljak came to the Main Staff, I was in Sector North. And that

14 Sector North was under the Main Staff, so we did see each other.

15 However, at the time, I did not sit in that office.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, what about the secretary

17 of the head of staff; did you see that lady? We were told that it was a

18 lady.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was a young lady.

20 It's not that I saw her. I was the person who recommended her to

21 General Petkovic. She was a good friend of mine, and General Petkovic

22 accepted my recommendation.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you can confirm that,

24 indeed, this lady was there?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, I can confirm that.

Page 48764

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Last question now:

2 We know that there were people who were on duty. Everyone here at some

3 point in their lives was on duty, probably. When you were on duty, did

4 you have a log-book into which you would write down everything which

5 would occur during your time of duty?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was a log-book

7 in which information coming from the ground would be entered.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you made entries into this

9 log-book. Did everyone look afterward at these entries, or did you write

10 something and no one would look at them afterwards?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was a

12 possibility. I mean, if there was some information, it could be read out

13 to the head of the Main Staff, or if he wanted to have a look, himself,

14 he could.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

16 Now, Mr. Praljak, the Registrar is telling me that you have eight

17 minutes left.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That will do, Your Honours,

19 yes.

20 Q. Just another question. When I became commander of the

21 Main Staff, was the Main Staff then in Grude or -- rather, in Citluk or

22 in Mostar? I beg your pardon, I misspoke. Citluk or Mostar, on the

23 24th of July?

24 A. In Citluk, that's where it was at the time, the Main Staff. I

25 mean, I was thinking about it because I knew that the staff was moving

Page 48765

1 from Mostar and further on, and by then it was in Citluk.

2 Q. We just need to resolve the following now: We saw some

3 documents -- we saw some documents here, and Their Honours saw some

4 documents where one person's conversations were listened in to, but the

5 answers of the other person were not heard. For example, you and I are

6 talking in a particular system, Mr. Jasak, and the HVO is intercepting

7 our conversation, and they did manage to catch what I was saying, but

8 they did not manage to hear what you were saying. Do you know that there

9 were these so-called simplex and duplex communications? Do you know

10 about that, simplex, duplex?

11 A. I know about that. That means that the signal entered the

12 repeater on one frequency, and from the repeater the signal went out with

13 a different frequency, so at the same time one could not listen to both

14 sides.

15 Q. There you go. Let's clarify the matter. I am sending you a

16 message, I don't know, say 142 megahertz, and you receive such a message,

17 but then you send me a message using a frequency that has, say,

18 90 kilohertz more and I hear it; however, the party intercepting our

19 conversation managed to catch one frequency, and now he is trying to find

20 the other frequency but then does not succeed on time. Is that an

21 explanation why sometimes we have a recording of an intercepted

22 conversation of one person but not the other party to the conversation?

23 A. Absolutely, that is an explanation, because that's the way things

24 were exactly.

25 Q. My last --

Page 48766

1 JUDGE PRANDLER: Please, Mr. Praljak, stop now. And I would like

2 to say that, again, you are really, both of you, I mean, also with the

3 witness, are talking very fast and you do not stop in between the

4 questions and answers. And since I was encouraged by Mr. Karnavas'

5 comments, I will in the future also ask our President to speak slowly if

6 there was some problem as far as the translation is concerned.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you please speak

9 slower. I am the main one at fault. I know that I'm a fast speaker, and

10 therefore everyone speaks fast as well. Sorry about that. So please try

11 to slow down.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It's our fault, it's our

14 fault. What can I say?

15 Q. Mr. Jasak, my last question now, nice and slow.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the last question, one

17 technical matter.

18 General Praljak is asking you questions about eavesdropping with

19 the frequencies. We understand that you listened to a frequency, but you

20 don't have the other frequency in return. Okay, that I understand. Let

21 me now focus on the telephones.

22 We have seen documents in which the HVO officers -- I mean, some

23 people had telephone numbers. Well, there's no need to quote the

24 document. All those sitting here in this courtroom know this type of

25 document. Maybe I'm making a mistake here, but regarding the telephone

Page 48767

1 system in Bosnia-Herzegovina, what about the telephone switchboard? Was

2 it in Sarajevo, the central one? And, therefore, if you wanted to

3 eavesdrop, for instance, on Mr. Praljak's conversations, who would be on

4 the phone with a classical telephone line and talk to Mr. Petkovic on the

5 phone, did you have to connect or hook up the lines at the central

6 switchboard which was located in Sarajevo? Do you know about that or

7 don't you know about that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is a hypothetical

9 question, but I will try to explain. Every post did have its exchange.

10 That meant that one didn't have to go to Sarajevo because of that. Every

11 post has its own exchange.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All post has its

13 own exchange. So in Mostar, there was also a post office, I guess.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All post offices in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, weren't they all connected to the central exchange in

17 Sarajevo?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how this

19 went exactly; but if a post office has its own infrastructure, it can

20 communicate with anyone because -- or perhaps these were radio relay

21 communications or perhaps some kind of underground cables. That is to

22 say, if there was an underground cable link, then it wasn't possible to

23 have this kind of interception without tapping into the exchange at the

24 post office. However, if it was radio relay that was used, if there was

25 a node between two post offices, then at a particular frequency - I don't

Page 48768

1 know exactly which one - one could listen in to that.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. His Honour Judge Antonetti put a question to you which is exactly

5 what I had wanted to clarify with you, so let's pursue the matter.

6 If you wanted to phone to Paris from Siroki Brijeg before the

7 war, then the signal went from Siroki Brijeg to Mostar, and then from

8 Mostar to Sarajevo through a coaxial cable, and then from Sarajevo to

9 Belgrade, and then further on to Paris. To the best of your knowledge,

10 is that the way it was?

11 A. I think that this is absolutely correct.

12 Q. However, if from Siroki Brijeg you wanted to telephone to Grude,

13 then you went to Grude. I mean, there was probably a wire communication,

14 underground, above ground, whatever. Is that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. All right. Towards the -- at the beginning of the war, there was

17 no cable with Sarajevo anymore; right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. The post office in Mostar was destroyed?

20 A. That's correct, too.

21 Q. In Sarajevo, it was destroyed as well; right? So if Petkovic and

22 I are talking on the phone from Grude to Citluk, Tomislavgrad, et cetera,

23 it is only our own service that can intercept our conversations by

24 tapping into the same wires at the same post office and listening in; is

25 that right?

Page 48769

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. However, we cannot hear what Karadzic and Mladic are discussing

3 in that way; right?

4 A. If it is the same system of communications, then that's

5 absolutely correct.

6 Q. However, the very moment when this signal is modulated and if we

7 turn it into an electromagnetic wave that goes to a relay, due to the

8 fact that it is digital, is it difficult to listen into that; several

9 communications, different frequencies, et cetera?

10 A. That is correct. One cannot do it in a targeted fashion. You

11 may catch something by accident, but it's very, very difficult because

12 it's a digital signal.

13 Q. What we are saying just now does not apply to what the Americans,

14 the French, and the British are capable of doing. They can listen in to

15 a lot more because of the vast amounts of money and know-how and

16 equipment that are invested in that?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Today, Croatia can do that, too, because she obtained -- Croatia

19 obtained things like that with -- using lots of money?

20 A. Probably. I don't really have any knowledge about that.

21 Q. However, that was not exactly your line of work. Is it possible,

22 for instance, today, to use elementary equipment of a couple of hundred

23 dollars to listen to all the communications between aeroplanes that are

24 flying and, for example, you can hear military orders in Iraq? I mean,

25 nowadays it's relatively easy for anyone who has a bit of knowledge about

Page 48770

1 that to listen in to that?

2 A. There are different kinds of Hamm operator types of equipment,

3 and you can even read about it in the press, that a lot of people listen

4 in to a whole lot of things.

5 Q. Under the assumption that these are not secure communications,

6 secure through crypto-protection at a high level?

7 A. Absolutely. However, if there is a high level of protection, you

8 cannot understand what is being discussed if it's scrambled, for

9 instance.

10 Q. That is to say, a digital system, that means changing frequencies

11 of the waves every now and then. It also implies coded messages; right?

12 A. That's right.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours,

14 for your patience.

15 Thank you, Brigadier Jasak, for your detailed answers. I have

16 completed what I had set out to complete in this way.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question

18 that we might have put to you earlier on.

19 I would like to know whether your -- you told us your superior

20 was Zarko Kaza [as interpreted]?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Keza.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Keza, fine.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You went to a mechanical

25 engineering school. Could you tell us what was the education?

Page 48771

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Brigadier Zarko Keza, I know

2 that he had some kind of an education connected to mechanical

3 engineering, that he was a craftsman in that respect; and within the

4 ONO DSZ system, he did some kind of work of that kind in Ljubuski, in the

5 Territorial Defence Staff in the former Yugoslavia.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We heard -- with the questions

7 and the documents we saw, I noted that you were an analyst in military

8 intelligence, which is a -- quite an important position in an army.

9 However, I would like to know the following: This line of work, in

10 armies like NATO armies, are jobs that cannot be improvised. You have to

11 be trained, you have to know the law, you have to know the media, and

12 sometimes you have to have very sophisticated knowledge about all these

13 areas. Your education background did not seem to be such that you could

14 have this kind of job. So did you end up with this job because there was

15 no one else and you were smart, and people said, Well, he's able to take

16 up that job, or is it because you had a feeling for analysis?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at that point in time,

18 in terms of the areas that were being analysed, people who were familiar

19 with these areas dealt with them. That is to say, I had colleagues who

20 had similar jobs, and we discussed that. I had a talent for analysis,

21 and that is why that area was given to me, because it was proven that

22 what I had suggested earlier on turned out to be correct. If the army

23 was being established the way modern armies are being established, for

24 example, the current Croatian Army that is now a member of NATO, I mean,

25 I could not have reached that kind of a position in that kind of army.

Page 48772

1 However, there is no doubt that I had some knowledge about Mostar, I

2 lived there from 1987, and that is what was important, and that is why I

3 was entrusted with that job.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, because I

5 see that time is slipping by. One last question.

6 You said that you had one common enemy, the Serbs, the VRS. You

7 told us that your neighbour, who was your friend -- which you called your

8 friend, was the BH Army. I already put this question, but I'd like to go

9 into details regarding this area. When there are two armed forces facing

10 a third one, and these two armed forces have a joint command, carry out

11 joint operations, have a single front-line, we have seen maps where we

12 actually see that there is a single front-line, so it seems that these

13 two armed forces have relationships, even though off and on there are

14 some conflicts. In such a case, don't these two armed forces actually

15 co-operate also in terms of intelligence? Don't they have in-depth

16 co-operation in terms of intelligence, with exchange of targeted and

17 high-performance information? So I would like to know whether on the

18 ground you co-operated with the BH Army regarding intelligence matters,

19 or did anyone -- did both sides just carry out their own intelligence

20 operations and not communicate or disclose to the other party information

21 that had been collected, even though we know that there were

22 Joint Command meetings?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we had the

24 opportunity to see some orders where the HVO and the

25 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina are both being mentioned; that is to say, that

Page 48773

1 in these joint orders for defence, there is joint information provided by

2 the enemy --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: About the enemy.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is to say that there was

5 co-operation between these units that functioned together.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, on the BH Army side, what

7 was the name of your counterpart, if you know, of course?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I, personally, did not

9 have any co-operation with the BH Army. That is why I said that this was

10 at lower levels, where there were units that were operating together. As

11 for my chief, he talked to them through delegations at top level, where

12 Main Staff commanders participated. He probably had the opportunity to

13 exchange information with his colleague there.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will finish in a

15 few minutes.

16 We'll continue next Monday. We have two hours left -- I'm sorry,

17 I thought it was 6.00. I'm sorry. No, we're still going to go on for an

18 hour. However, once we're finished at 6.00, we will adjourn for the day,

19 and we'll resume on Monday at 2.15, 2.00 p.m. And you're not supposed to

20 contact anyone in the meanwhile.

21 Furthermore, next week we will sit for four days, Monday,

22 Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. The Prosecutor will get his six hours.

23 There will probably be some time left for the other Defence teams, so

24 normally we should be able to finish in time. We'll finish the

25 cross-examination and possibly the redirect, if need be. I'm sure we'll

Page 48774

1 have less objections. Everybody's trying to understand that objections

2 are not the important thing; it's the substance of documents and of the

3 testimony of the witness. So normally we should not run into any

4 scheduling problem.

5 Let me also add that the Petkovic Defence gave us their schedule

6 for their witnesses to come. It seems that in the week starting on

7 February 1st; Tuesday, February 2nd; Wednesday, February 3rd; and

8 Thursday, February 4th, there will be no witness, so we will not sit on

9 these four days, and this at the request of the Prosecution. The

10 Prosecution says that they will be ready to hear Mr. Petkovic as of

11 February 14th, a Thursday. But before that, the Petkovic Defence

12 rescheduled the witness that we were not able to hear last time, 4D-AA,

13 so he will start on Monday, February 8. I wanted this to be said so that

14 it would be clear for everyone, so everyone would know what the schedule

15 will be, and so I wanted it to be on the transcript.

16 Mr. Praljak, you're finished with your cross-examination. Who's

17 next in line?

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like

19 to say that the Coric Defence will not have any questions for this

20 witness. I would just like to thank him for coming to The Hague to

21 testify.

22 And on page 57, in line 21 of the transcript, there is probably a

23 small mistake, because that Thursday is the 11th, the 11th, not the 14th

24 of February, because we are very interested in that because our own

25 schedule continues at that point.

Page 48775

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. While we're talking about

2 dates, I remind you that General Petkovic's hearing will end at one point

3 in time and then we will start hearing the Coric witnesses.

4 Now, what about my own questions to General Petkovic? Well,

5 I can tell you right away that once General Petkovic's in-chief will be

6 over after six hours, which is what Ms. Alaburic asked for, I can tell

7 you that personally I will need two days of hearing. On the first day, I

8 will ask questions to General Petkovic using the indictment, the

9 preliminary brief, and all of the documents used in this preliminary

10 brief, so I will put questions on inculpatory elements.

11 And on the second day, I will put questions to General Petkovic

12 using the binder provided to us by Ms. Alaburic when she made her

13 preliminary arguments, with the outline that she gave us and all the

14 documents that we have. I will not follow the order of the documents in

15 the binder. I will attack the problem differently.

16 In a nutshell, it means that I will need two days. The first

17 day, the entire day of hearing; and on the second day, second day of

18 hearing. For General Praljak, I had required six days altogether, but we

19 had spent a lot of time on presidential transcripts. This time, it will

20 be much shorter. And I just wanted to say all this so you can prepare

21 yourself for this, but I will only need eight hours, at the most, for my

22 own questions.

23 Ms. Nozica, we haven't heard you for a long time.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Yes, this is the first time in this year. I would like to greet

Page 48776

1 everyone in the courtroom, including Mr. Jasak.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Nozica:

3 Q. Mr. Jasak, I see that you have received the documents.

4 Mr. Jasak -- Your Honours, I will try within this hour to conclude my

5 cross-examination. I know it's always a bad thing to have a gap of two

6 or three days.

7 Mr. Jasak, I'm going to cross-examine you on three topics. The

8 first topic is going to be the one that was excessively discussed in

9 examination-in-chief, and that is the signing on the agreement on

10 cessation of hostilities and the breaches of the same by the

11 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 The second topic is going to concern the plans of the Army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and its political leadership, of military operations

14 further beyond Konjic, via Mostar and Neum, all the way to Ploce.

15 And the third topic only is related to three documents, and that

16 deals with the carrying out of these operations by the

17 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the plans for their execution with the

18 Muslim members of the HVO.

19 Mr. Jasak, can you please look at the document. I am going to

20 follow the sequence that you see in the binder. First of all, can you

21 please look at document 4D125. This is an order -- or, rather, an

22 agreement on the cessation of all previous procedures, as stated under

23 item 1, which disrupt the joint fighting of the HVO and the

24 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The date is the 23rd of March, 1993, and you

25 testified about this. In spite of that, I'm going to ask you this:

Page 48777

1 After this date and after this agreement was reached, the truce was

2 breached by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes, there were instances of the breach of truce. However,

4 generally speaking, after this agreement was signed, as I said, this was

5 calmed down to a certain extent. If I remember correctly, the weather

6 was particularly bad during that period, and I think that also had an

7 impact.

8 Q. Mr. Jasak, was it in April when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 launched an attack on HVO units in Konjic, an extensive attack?

10 A. Yes, it happened in mid-April.

11 Q. Can you please now look at the next, which is P2032. Mr. Jasak,

12 this is a report of the Security Department, dated the

13 24th of April, 1994. The document is an exhibit, and I'm not going to

14 dwell on it for too long. Mr. Jasak, I did not discuss with you during

15 the briefing, and I'm going to show you some documents that you are going

16 to see for the first time. However, I'm going to give you enough time

17 for you to review the documents on which I'm going to put some more

18 detailed questions.

19 As I said, this is a report which speaks about a meeting in

20 Zenica on the 20th of February, where an agreement was signed that you

21 were asked about by my learned friend; that is, the agreement signed by

22 Mr. Morillon on behalf of UNPROFOR. And we are going to show you this

23 agreement later.

24 What I would like to see now is the last page --

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: For the transcript: In the transcript at one

Page 48778

1 point, page 60, line 19, this is dated 1994, but it is 1993, as entered

2 further above, just so that we have the transcript okay. Thank you.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. It

4 was 1993.

5 Q. Mr. Jasak, I'm going to ask you something that might concern your

6 work, and it's on page 4 of this document, the last paragraph in English,

7 and in Croatia I would kindly ask you to look at page 4. We have it in

8 e-court as well, and it reads:

9 "Today we got to know the fact that all this game that the

10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is playing with the truce boils down to the

11 regrouping of forces, the attempt to pull out 19 trucks of weapons and

12 ammunition out of Grude, and to start a total attack from Mostar to

13 Vares, and members of the Army of BiH are asked to remain at the

14 positions reached."

15 I am not going to ask you yet about this, but please bear in

16 mind, and then we will come to a document that concerns you.

17 Let us look at the next document, which is P2002.

18 Mr. Jasak, can you confirm that this is the Zenica Agreement?

19 A. Yes, that's the one we saw yesterday.

20 Q. Can you please now look at the next document, 2D302 --

21 correction, 75. Mr. Jasak, in response to a question posed by His Honour

22 Judge Antonetti concerning this topic, you said, about the

23 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that they signed one thing and did another.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 48779

1 Q. I'm going to repeat the number of the document. It's 2D3075.

2 Please look at this document, and it says here, "The Army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina," a text of a decrypted telegraph, which reads as

4 follows:

5 "During last night's meeting with Sefer Halilovic, both sides

6 were ordered to cease fire until further notice. A new meeting will be

7 held today at 1500 hours. Most likely, the truce will not last for long,

8 and tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, following the regrouping of our

9 troops, there could be a simultaneous" --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Unilateral."

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] -- "attack on HVO from Mostar to

12 Vares. The truce has been signed in order to attempt to bring our 10

13 trailer-trucks of weapons and ammunition from Grude and also in order to

14 regroup our troops. Stay on the lines reached, and do not open fire

15 first. After my arrival for the meeting, I will send you a telegraph."

16 Mr. Jasak, we clearly see that this is the information that the

17 SIS had and that it's quoted in document P2032.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger.

19 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 I apologise to my colleague for interrupting. This may just be a

21 language point, Your Honour, but I see that the interpreter has

22 translated, and this is at line 15 on page 62, that there could be a

23 unilateral attack, while the translation in the document that we -- of

24 the document that we have been provided with talks about a simultaneous

25 attack. This may affect the response or may be important, Your Honour.

Page 48780

1 Perhaps we could get a clarification on that.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It should be

3 "simultaneous."

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, this is an

5 important document and there might be a translation problem. Maybe the

6 best solution would be for you to read, in your own language, the text,

7 and then we, through the interpretation, will know.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me,

9 Mr. Kruger is right. It says "simultaneous," not "unilateral."

10 "Simultaneous attack." And the witness has the document in front of him.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And the interpreters have confirmed this. The

12 interpreter, in English, has confirmed that it is "simultaneous."

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, and the

14 translation of the document is correct. That is all I wanted to say.

15 Q. Witness, please, are you aware of this situation, and is this

16 text of the encrypted telegram something that your service did, and can

17 you recall that this was exactly what happened?

18 A. This kind of document was encrypted in the

19 Military Intelligence Service; and obviously through exchange of

20 information with the SIS, it found its way here.

21 Q. Very well. If I understand you correctly, this was the type of

22 document that was encrypted by your service. And you have just confirmed

23 what you told us yesterday; that is to say, that you exchanged

24 intelligence with the SIS, and that is how this document was included in

25 their report. Did I understand you correctly?

Page 48781

1 A. Yes, you did.

2 Q. Okay. Let us now move to another topic, Mr. Jasak.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If you will bear with me.

4 Witness, on top of the document there is a handwritten mention

5 which we do not have in the translation. Are you able to read it? And

6 if so, would you be so kind as to read it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not very legible, but as far

8 as I can discern, it says:

9 "Important concerning a convoy in Grude."

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Ms. Nozica is now

12 moving on to another matter. Amongst the thousands of documents which we

13 have looked at, this document may - I want to stress "may" - confirm the

14 thesis that the BH Army was playing a double deal. In other words, you

15 sign a cease-fire, and we saw some documents about that earlier. The

16 cease-fire, as an immediate consequence, as is stated in the document,

17 allows for the departure at that time of 10 trucks of arms and

18 ammunitions from Grude. And we know from other witnesses and other

19 documents that there was a supply of weapons from the BH Army, through

20 the HVO, and also from the Croat Army, and this document confirms that,

21 and that once the BH Army would have had its MTS and would have regrouped

22 its troops, at that time an order would have been issued for a

23 simultaneous attack on Mostar and Vares, so if the wire-tapping is exact,

24 is true.

25 Now, what about this type of document; did you have to deal with

Page 48782

1 this sort of situation on a constant basis, or the so-called "friend or

2 foe," I mean depending, would the "friend or foe" cease fire and then

3 start attacking again?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were quite a few

5 situations like that, particularly in that period; that is to say, that

6 we had a cease-fire agreement seize; but in actual fact there was no

7 cease-fire, there was shooting continuing. This in particular refers to

8 the documents dated the 18th and the 20th, and that was signed in Zenica.

9 That's what I'm talking about. We can see what kind of activities were

10 taking place in that area towards Konjic.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. I must be also fair

12 with the Prosecution. I could also ask you the question about the HVO.

13 What about the HVO? Did they do the same thing? In other words, would

14 they cease fire and then not take a cease-fire into account in their

15 operations? Could this situation also arise?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know about any

17 such situation, because the HVO in that area was outnumbered by far and

18 they did not want to get into conflict with the

19 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Ms. Nozica, you may

21 continue.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to correct

23 you. Only I would like to say that on page 64, line 21, it reads that it

24 was 10 trucks or trailer-trucks. And for the benefit of transcript, I

25 would like to say that in document P2032 and 2D3075, concerning this

Page 48783

1 particular situation, there is mention of 19 trailer-trucks.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Ms. Nozica, in the

3 document which I see here, it says "10." I don't have "19" in the

4 English version. It says "10."

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Apparently

6 it's a misinterpretation. We have "19 trailer-trucks" in both documents.

7 Q. Mr. Jasak, let us move to another topic which is something that

8 relates to the plans of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its political

9 leadership for military operations from Konjic to Neum and Ploce.

10 In your response to Judge Antonetti's question, you said that the

11 HVO did not have enough manpower and troops in the area of Konjic.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would just

13 like to say that Witness Dragan Juric testified before this Court on

14 these same circumstances, and he confirmed that on pages 39278 and 39279

15 of the transcript.

16 Q. Can we now look at document 4D599.

17 You had the opportunity to see this document yesterday. You gave

18 us your comments as well. My colleague Ms. Alaburic asked you about

19 this. These were events in April, once again, when there was a new

20 attack of the army against the HVO in Konjic. Am I right?

21 A. Yes, you are right.

22 Q. On the second page, it says:

23 "We will try to finish the job in Konjic as soon as possible, and

24 then to launch a counter-attack with all brigades in two directions,

25 Konjic-Jablanica-Mostar."

Page 48784

1 Yesterday, you testified about that on page 48660, and you

2 actually did say that that would mean continuing as had been planned

3 earlier on from Konjic via Jablanica to Mostar, and in that way the

4 territories of the three municipalities are being linked up, and

5 conditions are created for continuing further operations using Stolac,

6 Capljina, and the sea coast itself. I am taking this document just by

7 way of an introduction for this topic.

8 And now let's look at the next document, 2D3076.

9 [No interpretation]

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We have no interpretation. Perhaps --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can you hear us now?

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I can hear you now.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I told the witness to have a look at

14 this document. If there was no interpretation, the witness did

15 understand that he wanted -- he heard that we should look at this

16 document. And if he could please tell us whether this document was

17 prepared by his service.

18 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jasak, is this, in actual fact, an intercept? As

19 Mr. Praljak explained to us today, is this duplex communication, because

20 we can see the answer and the question?

21 A. It would be simplex, if you can hear both.

22 Q. Sorry, simplex, yes. Duplex is different. Towards the bottom,

23 we can see the name of Mr. Slobodan Praljak. The document was probably

24 submitted to him.

25 And let us look at 2205, please, where it says "London-Paris."

Page 48785

1 "Is 210 there?

2 "Yes. Who wants to know?

3 "Akif Agic [phoen], journalist."

4 Then Akif is speaking:

5 "How are you, komandant, commander?

6 "Excellent.

7 "Have you seen my komandant? We were supposed to draw some kind

8 of a report.

9 "He is here with me, and soon we will meet with you.

10 "Konjic and Gornji Vakuf are the first parts of the free

11 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina as it should be. I heard that Alija is

12 glad too.

13 "Yes, yes. Every day, the free Bosnia-Herzegovina is one foot

14 bigger."

15 Mr. Jasak, you said during your direct examination, on page

16 48664, that even if there were some kind of a violation of a cease-fire,

17 it would be very brief. And, basically -- actually, you said that during

18 the direct examination. And, basically, Mr. Izetbegovic, as you said,

19 was supposed to know about all of this, and the Supreme Command as well.

20 This document indirectly refers to Mr. Izetbegovic and the situation in

21 Konjic. I'm asking you whether you remember -- whether you can tell us

22 whether this document could have been created after what had happened in

23 Konjic in April 1993, since Konjic is being mentioned as part of the free

24 territory.

25 A. I did mention that yesterday, when I was asked about a particular

Page 48786

1 period of time. It was signed on the 18th, Izetbegovic and Boban, and

2 already on the 20 something there were operations. There was no

3 cease-fire, that is to say, for four days an army had been waging war,

4 and it would be impossible for its commander not to know about it.

5 As for this, it is obvious -- it is evident that this is after

6 that particular period of time, after April. So it means that Konjic was

7 already under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it

8 had been "liberated," under quotation marks, from Croat forces, and that

9 Alija Izetbegovic was glad about that. So this confirms that he did know

10 about that.

11 Q. When you said "April," Mr. Jasak, you're referring to 1993;

12 right?

13 A. After April 1993.

14 Q. Mr. Jasak, what happened in Konjic in April 1993? I'm asking you

15 that because of this sentence here that says what kind of -- what

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina should be like every day -- yes, yes:

17 "Every day it is the free Bosnia-Herzegovina as it should be."

18 What is this Bosnia and Herzegovina as it should have been, as

19 this journalist is saying, and what is it that Mr. Izetbegovic is being

20 pleased about? What happened to Croats who were in Konjic, and what was

21 going on in Konjic generally? Did you receive intelligence reports about

22 that?

23 A. We did receive intelligence reports about that; that is to say,

24 in April. In April 1993, there were very frequent attacks against the

25 HVO. Civilians and soldiers were being taken prisoner, and there were

Page 48787

1 expellees, too. It was a very difficult period for Croat units and the

2 Croat population in that area. Basically, it meant the creation of a

3 purely Muslim territory. And in their view, that is what

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina was supposed to be like, as is stated here.

5 Q. All right. Now that we are talking about intelligence reports,

6 please look at the next document, 2D3061.

7 Please have a look at this document, because I assume this is the

8 first time you're seeing it. This is a piece of information,

9 instructions from the Staff of the Supreme Command in Sarajevo, the

10 Intelligence Administration. The 1st of May, 1993, is the date.

11 In the first paragraph of this document, Mr. Jasak -- in the

12 first and second paragraph, what is being stated is how intelligence

13 reports should be written so that they could be used for the possible

14 drafting of plans for axes of activity. And what does it say here:

15 "Provide us with weekly reports, regular and interim ones."

16 And operative tactical routes, directions, are Ploce, Capljina,

17 Mostar, Livno, Duvno, Mostar.

18 I'm just going to ask you about these two. And now, down here,

19 there is a list of questions, and reports should contain answers to these

20 questions: The name of the unit, the establishment involved, and

21 everything else that is needed.

22 Now, Mr. Jasak, I would be interested in the following: Since on

23 the 1st of May, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is asking for these

24 intelligence reports for the Ploce-Capljina-Mostar operative route,

25 direction, could you please explain to Their Honours what this operative

Page 48788

1 route means and what this request for information means. What are the

2 intentions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on this basis?

3 A. It is obvious here that they have nothing else to think of on the

4 1st of May, Konjic-Jablanica-Mostar. For them, that is a problem that

5 has already been resolved. They are thinking about further advances.

6 That is to say, when Konjic, Jablanica and Mostar are linked up, as I

7 said yesterday, they want to link up with the sea coast, because Ploce is

8 a port in the Republic of Croatia, and they believe that that is very

9 important for Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, Mostar and Capljina,

10 that's it. Up until the border with Croatia, the left bank should be

11 taken.

12 Q. However, since Ploce is mentioned, does that mean that it

13 includes the Republic of Croatia? Many of the Judges do know, but is

14 there a town -- a small town between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Ploce?

15 A. Yes, there are two small towns. There is Metkovic and there is

16 Opuzen.

17 Q. I don't want to put you in any kind of difficult position. What

18 is the distance to Ploce via road M-17? How far away is Ploce from the

19 border with Bosnia-Herzegovina, roughly?

20 A. I think about 15 kilometres, something like that. I don't know

21 exactly.

22 Q. All right. Tell me, what can you tell me about this other route

23 or direction, Livno-Duvno-Mostar, or, rather, the other way around,

24 Mostar-Duvno-Livno? What does that show? What is the

25 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina saying through this? What are its interests

Page 48789

1 along this route?

2 A. Obviously, the all of South-East and North-West Herzegovina

3 should be under their control.

4 Q. Very well. Now, in relation to the same topic, could you look at

5 the next document, 3D2591. It's another report.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

7 Witness, the question put to you with regard to this document

8 convey, at least to me, the idea that basically the intelligence sought

9 is intelligence useful in view of attacks of the ABiH into that

10 direction. Now, the question, of course, arises whether it could not --

11 there could not be an interest in it in reverse; that is to say, be

12 informed in order to be able to prepare against an attack of the other

13 side on these routes. And perhaps if you look at the different points

14 that are indicated, there is also reference of an aggressor I seem to

15 have seen which, I think in the eyes of the ABiH, would be the Croat or

16 HVO forces, if you look at number 2.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of

18 assistance. I do apologise. We are going to give the witness enough

19 time. However, I would just like to suggest to you and the witness to

20 have a look at other paragraphs in addition to 1 and 2; Gacko, et cetera.

21 Perhaps an answer to what you have been asking about may be contained

22 there, because when we read this entire document, it does not pertain to

23 the HVO only.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I did not have a big picture in mind, but just a

25 nuance to the one that I had -- the impression that was created so far,

Page 48790

1 but I will, of course, not hinder you in asking the questions you deem

2 relevant. But perhaps in the beginning, as a start, I can repeat the

3 question.

4 Would you not -- would you exclude that this intelligence may

5 also have a defensive purpose?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, this is information

7 that was being prepared about all command posts, communications centres,

8 combat deployment, and combat operations carried out; so this had to do

9 with a thorough assessment of the situation and of the area. It was used

10 for defence and attack. However, when asking about directions, I gave

11 answers with regard to two specific directions. And according to

12 intelligence, that is what was supposed to be done in those two

13 directions.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, just

16 a small correction in the transcript.

17 What the witness said just now in line 10 was interpreted as "it

18 was used for defence and attack," whereas the witness said that it "could

19 have been used."

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise once again

21 for [as interpreted] His Honour Judge Trechsel because I intervened. I

22 intervened because of his question, where he says in relation to

23 paragraph 2 -- sorry, let me just try to explain this.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, no. The transcript, it has been translated

25 that you apologise for me, which would mean that I did something wrong

Page 48791

1 and in my place you kindly apologise. You mean "to," or the translation

2 should be "apologise to" and not "for." Is that correct?

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, there's

4 no way you can make a mistake. I never would have said that you made a

5 mistake. And what I said was that I interrupted your question, and that

6 is why I apologised, because you said, It seems on the basis of this

7 document, that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina considers the HVO to be an

8 aggressor, and that is why I would just briefly like for us to go back to

9 the document and to have a look at some other things, Mr. Jasak, if you

10 allow me to do so.

11 Your Honour, do you have something else to add?

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I already had allowed you to do so, but I must

13 protest. You are entirely wrong, Ms. Nozica. I do make mistakes now and

14 then, and you may, of course, draw my attention to it, as do your

15 colleagues and my colleagues. Thank you.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I'm glad

17 that you admitted that. I would never dare to say so.

18 Q. Mr. Jasak, there is a reference to Gacko, Nevesinje, Bileca,

19 Trebinje, Nevesinje here. Are these areas in this document where there

20 were operative tactical directions or routes? Are these areas where the

21 Army of Republika Srpska was, or "the aggressor," as documents of the

22 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina usually say?

23 A. Yes, those were Gacko, Nevesinje, Bileca, Trebinje. Those were

24 the places.

25 Q. A second matter. Please look at bullet point 7 or paragraph 7 on

Page 48792

1 the list of questions. You read it, please, and then tell me whether

2 this points to the fact that an operation in place was offensive rather

3 than a defensive operation. You were a soldier. You tell me what is

4 meant by this.

5 A. A possibility to bring in fresh troops on those axes, on the axes

6 of combat, state sectors and axes in your area of responsibility from

7 which forces and equipment can be engaged. Both is do-able.

8 What I said a little while ago was this: Collecting intelligence

9 was done, and then if you need it for defence, you can use it. If you

10 need it for attack, it can be used to boost your forces or plan for

11 somewhat greater forces in order to inflict defeat on the enemy.

12 Q. And now when we're talking about the possibility of this being

13 both an offensive or a defensive, my question is this: From the

14 1st of May, 1993, onwards, was there an operation in place which was

15 launched from Ploce - I'm talking about the town of Ploce - and then was

16 targeted against the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and according to what

17 you know and according to the intelligence that you had?

18 A. There were no such operations in place.

19 Q. Very well.

20 Let's look at the document 3D2591, which is the following

21 document in your binder just after this one. Kindly give yourself some

22 time. I have learned my lesson, and I believe that what you were talking

23 about would correspond to what Mr. Praljak mentioned as duplex

24 connection. Am I right?

25 A. No, you're not. This is a short-wave connection. However, this

Page 48793

1 is a report which was picked up by the central communication link,

2 judging by its form. However, this was done during the period when I was

3 not at the VOS. Obviously, the document reflects what I've just said,

4 that it was picked up by the central communication line.

5 Q. You were not there on that date. However, let me ask you whether

6 the same practice had been followed even before then.

7 A. The form of the document is absolutely identical.

8 Q. It arises from the document that the persons who are talking are

9 Zuka and Alija Izetbegovic; am I right?

10 A. Yes, you are.

11 Q. And it says here that the conversation took place in duplex,

12 which means that I'm right and that I have learned something after all.

13 And now it says that the frequency at which the conversation is taking

14 place is being followed, and it says:

15 "We couldn't find Izetbegovic's frequency, and only Zuka's words

16 were recorded."

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

19 Q. In the first part, since only Zuka's words are recorded, a

20 reference is made to the effect - you can see that for yourself - a

21 reference is made to the 21st of September, and it says here that Zuka

22 had received information about a possible cease-fire. And as you can see

23 in the document, he says that this wouldn't be good. However, why I'm

24 showing you this document is the last paragraph in the document, where it

25 says:

Page 48794

1 "Mr. President, we will soon see each other. Let me just tell

2 you that there is a piece of good news for you concerning Stolac and

3 those parts down there, Dubrava and others. Rest assured that we have

4 the strength, and not only that, but we also have the strength for Neum,

5 and if they behave improperly we will take Grude and Listica from them as

6 well, we will take everything from them, Mr. President. We are not that

7 far away from Listica, Mr. President."

8 Mr. Jasak, this was in the month of September, and I remember

9 that you had left in the month of August. Up to then, according to the

10 intelligence that you had, would you say that that was exactly the

11 position and the plan of the BH Army on the axes that we have already

12 mentioned from Konjic, Mostar, to Neum? It says here:

13 "We will take Listica as well ..."

14 And I am quoting. Did you have such intelligence?

15 A. Well, I was there. Our intelligence absolutely confirmed that

16 they were prepared to go from Konjic, Mostar, Jablanica to Capljina and

17 the lower part of Stolac, and here in the document a reference is also

18 made to Listica and Grude. I believe it was more bragging than anything

19 else. It was just lip service to their strength.

20 Q. Mr. Jasak, I believe that we still have some more time for yet

21 another document, which is separate in the binder behind all the other

22 documents. The number is 1D1210, 1D1210. It's a separate document which

23 is not part of the binder. You have a similar document to this one at

24 the very end. It should be there. It should have been given to you.

25 You've got it.

Page 48795

1 This is a letter which was sent to the president of the

2 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

3 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, by Zijad Demirovic. In the original of the

4 document, we see that Safet Rucevic and Arif Pasalic were two other

5 signatories of the document. Did you know these gentlemen, to start

6 with?

7 A. Yes, I did know them.

8 Q. In the first part of the document, the gentleman informed

9 Mr. Izetbegovic that they had toured the terrain around

10 Konjic and Jablanica, and the document bears the date 20 February 1993,

11 which means before the events in Konjic that we have just spoken about,

12 they say that they had toured Konjic and Jablanica, that they still

13 needed to tour Stolac and Capljina. And it says in the second paragraph:

14 "Our main goal is to create as coherent and unique political and

15 military unit of the legal organs of powers and Muslim organisations,

16 i.e., the armies of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

17 This document is already in evidence and has been used a number

18 of times, and the entire document speaks, especially on its first page in

19 several places, that what is being created is the army of the Muslim

20 people. A reference is made to the fact that a project to strengthen the

21 political front of Muslims in the Neretva Valley is particularly good and

22 has been well received by all the municipalities there. The leaders in

23 these municipalities are happy to see that finally what is being created

24 is a unique and effective political organisation in the region.

25 In the middle of the document, it says that the framework for

Page 48796

1 that activity is the charter of the Muslims of Herzegovina. And towards

2 the end of the document, there is a reference to the creation of the

3 so-called Green Valley. And it says in the last paragraph:

4 "As far as Sefer, Arif, and myself are concerned, as well as our

5 closest associates, I don't think that it would be too much to say that

6 we are full of energy and that we are persistent on pursuing the policies

7 that you, yourself, have outlined and that have been firmly agreed. This

8 is, indeed, the most important thing, and the rest with the help of

9 yourself and Allah can be perfected and enhanced."

10 Mr. Jasak, I have chosen this document to go a step or two back.

11 What I would like to know, whether you had intelligence and whether this

12 document finally or ultimately confirms what you said, yourself, during

13 the direct examination, that the intention of the BiH Army was to gain

14 access to the sea. And that was the BiH Army that would have been

15 composed of Muslims only and would represent only the Muslim people.

16 A. This is precisely what the document demonstrates and corroborates

17 our intelligence and the information that we had. After

18 Ismet Hadziosmanovic, when the prominent political role in Mostar was

19 taken over by Zijad Demirovic, it could be noticed that the situation

20 started worsening.

21 Q. Now I will ask you to explain for the Trial Chamber what you mean

22 when you say that the situation started getting worse.

23 A. Let me put it this way -- in a very simple way. They started

24 creating an ugly picture of the Croatian Defence Council, and they

25 started saying that there was no place for Muslims there. And as far as

Page 48797

1 the multi-ethnicity of the troops, the HVO certainly had the highest

2 percentage of non-Croats in comparison with the BH Army or any other

3 force on the ground.

4 Q. Mr. Jasak, in order for us to be absolutely certain what you are

5 talking about, what is the period that you're referring to when

6 Mr. Demirovic took over the leading position in Mostar and when the

7 climate started changing vis--vis the HVO?

8 A. A bit before the document was written, towards the end of 1992,

9 but things started spiraling at this time at the beginning of 1992.

10 Q. And the beginning of 1993, if I understand you properly.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE PRANDLER: Ms. Nozica, although we have only five minutes

13 left, but I would like to ask a question about this document which you

14 currently brought to us, and that is 1D01210. And you were asked about

15 the -- Witness, about the end of it. I would like to ask you a question

16 concerning the -- in English, it is page 2, and here the author describes

17 the political situation in Herceg-Bosna. And around the middle of the

18 page, it says, and I quote:

19 "Our charter and it is our firm political position that the

20 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna is unacceptable because this is merely

21 another name for the code B-39 (the 1939 Banovina)."

22 And also there is a reference there that:

23 "The political minimum we seek is full equality and reaching

24 decisions on the basis of consensus or at two-thirds majority on

25 questions which have a bearing on fundamental national interests, and

Page 48798

1 elimination of all ethnic designations."

2 Elimination of all ethnic designations. I believe that the

3 "designation" word here is probably not the best one. In the original,

4 we can read, if I may read, that:

5 "[B/C/S spoken]."

6 I don't know if "preznaka" [phoen] is the same like

7 "designation." Probably it is something else in English, but the witness

8 may tell us.

9 My question is if this policy, which is explained here,

10 corresponds to the realities which he witnessed there; that is, was he

11 aware -- were you aware, Mr. Jasak, as far as this approach of some of

12 the Muslim leaders is concerned; that is, the approach that they rejected

13 the independent Herceg-Bosna, but they sought, anyway, a kind of

14 consensus on reaching decisions when a consensus was made or a two-thirds

15 majority?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your question was just

17 too long. However, when it comes to the independent Herceg-Bosna, I

18 never heard of any such thing.

19 JUDGE PRANDLER: Due to the time constraint, I do not seek

20 further answer. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I also have very

23 little time left, I would like to point to the paragraph that

24 His Honour Judge Prandler was quoting from.

25 Q. Have you found it, Witness?

Page 48799

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the second page in the middle, it says:

3 "When it comes to Banovina and code 3935 ..." it's rather

4 illegible, it says that:

5 "Such a policy of regional leadership among Muslims. Yours

6 truly, Safet Arif Mufti."

7 Which means that in this document, you can see very clearly that

8 Mr. Demirovic, according to Safet Rucevic and Arif Pasalic and Mufti

9 Smajkic, that that was their position as to what the HZ-HB represented.

10 That's why I asked you, Mr. Jasak, at the time, was there a large number

11 of Muslims in the HVO units, was there still a good level of co-operation

12 between the Muslims and the HVO, and were those other forces that

13 prevailed with their positions of this kind?

14 A. I've already told you that at the time, as far as the HVO was

15 concerned, there was a very large proportion of Muslims in the units and

16 that the HVO was the most multi-ethnic army in the territory of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Q. And later on, when it comes to the policies of the BH Army and

19 the political leadership in Mostar, did the forces that wrote this letter

20 and their positions prevail?

21 A. Absolutely, they ultimately did prevail.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you said that we

23 should break off at 6.00, so I'll stop, and I will continue on Monday.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We will resume next

25 Monday with a few documents left, that we will have time to look into

Page 48800

1 these documents before the hearing.

2 And I thank you all, and we adjourn to Monday at 2.15.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.01 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

6 January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.

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