1 Thursday, 1 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Praljak, Pusic, Petkovic not present]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please
8 call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
10 everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is the 1st of April, 2010. I would like to greet the
15 witness. I would also like to greet Mr. Coric as well as Mr. Stojic and
16 Mr. Prlic. I would also like to greet those who are not here today for
17 various reasons, including for health reasons, and I wish that they get
18 well soon. They have a few days to get better and to be back in good
19 health so that they will attend the next hearings. And as you know, they
20 will resume on Monday the 12th of April.
21 The Prosecutor has 18 minutes left, so I give her the floor
23 WITNESS: ZVONKO VIDOVIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
1 apologise, but might I be allowed to say something briefly before the
2 Prosecutor goes ahead. I wanted to say at the beginning that I wish to
3 apologise to the Trial Chamber, to the Prosecutor, and everybody else in
4 the courtroom, because I got up at one point yesterday and I was hasty in
5 saying that with respect to Witness Buntic I had shown the judgement from
6 a trial relating to the four persons who were convicted of rape.
7 However, it was the indictment and Prosecutor's lists, and I checked this
8 out. I relied on my memory and thought it was perfect. However, when I
9 got to my feet, I found that it was not perfect and I mixed two cases up.
10 So I wanted to say that straight away to avoid any misunderstanding in
11 the courtroom. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
13 MS. WEST: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon
14 Your Honours.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. West: [Continued]
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vidovic. Yesterday, when we left off, we
17 were talking about the Convicts Battalion, and you had indicated that
18 there had not been an order from Mr. Coric not to arrest certain members
19 of the group for fear of breaking them up, but, rather, you were
20 arresting them as they committed crimes because - and I'm going to quote
21 what you said yesterday at page 93:
22 "We were preparing a larger-scale operation which would result
23 in their arrest and a filing of a large number of criminal reports."
24 Sir, do you remember that testimony from yesterday?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Vidovic, in May of 1993, Juka Prazina was an HVO commander in
2 Mostar, was he not?
3 A. That he was the commander of the HVO in Mostar, is that what
4 you're asking? I don't know that he was a commander. I have no
5 knowledge of that post, that he was commander of the entire HVO. No,
6 that's not correct.
7 Q. What I actually said was a commander. So he was in the HVO, and
8 he was a soldier in Mostar in May of 1993; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was he ever prosecuted as a result of an investigation conducted
11 by the Mostar crime investigative services?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 MS. WEST: Mr. President, may we go into closed session.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 51715-51716 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 Thank you.
12 MS. WEST:
13 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I'm going to show you part of a transcript. And
14 this is P03112. It will appear on the screen. This is a meeting; you
15 didn't attend this meeting. Nonetheless, I'd like to talk about it to
16 see if it helps in this discussion.
17 MS. WEST: If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.
18 Thank you.
19 This is July 2nd, 1993
20 President Tudjman of Croatia
21 "I knew that some of our people might be extremists, but I also
22 knew that we could not eliminate such people due to the situation. If we
23 had eliminated them, we would have jeopardised our position in Bosnia
25 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but could we have
1 the transcript page from which the Prosecutor is reading so that we can
2 see the context that Mr. Tudjman is saying what he is? Because to have
3 an excerpt from a transcript page in this way and just look at one
4 sentence can lead to a misunderstanding. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems that it's page 21 of
6 the transcript of the 2nd of July, 1993. It's on the screen. It's
7 page 21.
8 Isn't it, Ms. West?
9 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President, indeed.
10 Q. So, Mr. Vidovic, my question to you is this: This theme, this
11 theme of allowing extremists to operate unchecked in the HVO in order to
12 support the goal of a purely Croatian Herceg-Bosna, this was a theme that
13 was emanating from the very top, was it not?
14 A. Well, I wouldn't put it -- actually, this isn't my area, so I
15 don't -- I don't want to discuss it in this way. I can't say what was
16 discussed at the very top, the leadership of the State of Croatia.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 A. I really wouldn't like to comment.
19 Q. Yesterday and the day before, we had been speaking about a rape
20 investigation, one that we -- counsel for Mr. Coric has just commented
21 upon, and not to beat a dead horse, but if we could just look at P11240,
22 and it should be right in front of you. P11240. It's loose. This is
23 February 25th, 1997
24 were acquitted. This is Mario Busic, Mario Coric, Mario Pazin, that they
25 were acquitted. And also it notes that Blasko Knezovic's case had been
1 terminated in 1995.
2 Sir, looking at this acquittal now, does this help your memory in
3 regard to what actually happened in this case?
4 A. This one? May I take a moment to read it, please.
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I
6 think my learned friend made a mistake. The case wasn't over in
7 1985 [as interpreted], but we see that the judgement was made in
8 February 1997 - am I right? - the first instance judgement. Because the
9 date in the transcript is 1995.
10 MS. WEST: I'm sure there's just a mistranslation. This is from
11 1997, and the case against the fourth defendant as reflected on page 3
12 and 4 of the English was terminated in 1995.
13 Q. So, sir, does this help you remember that these four individuals
14 were not convicted and were not sentenced? Is that right?
15 A. Let me just read through it, please.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour, if I may, while the
17 gentleman is reading this. Yesterday, as I understood, the line of
18 questioning was: Nothing happened to the men. Now, in the former
20 today, the presumption of innocence still exists. Thank God. And also,
21 courts are functioning, at this point in time, 1997, OHR was there;
22 Mostar was under international supervision; the courts were being
23 monitored. There seems to have been a trial proceeding where people were
24 acquitted. People are acquitted all over the world every day, again,
25 based on the evidence. So --
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, what's the justification for you
2 commenting and pleading on this?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may be heard. [Overlapping speakers]
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The Chamber knows the law and is absolutely able
5 to interpret what is brought before it. And there is time for pleading
6 at the end, Mr. Karnavas.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: This is not pleading. If I may be allowed to
8 finish, Mr. President. The point that I'm trying to make is as follows:
9 This is -- yesterday, the questioning was: Nothing was done. Today we
10 see that something was done. That's the point that I'm trying to make.
11 So she's not trying to remind him whether he had a recollection whether
12 they were acquitted. That's the point. It's a point about being precise
13 and being fair to the witness, Your Honour. And I dare say that it's my
14 obligation to raise that and make a record of it.
15 MS. WEST: If I can just have a moment just to be absolutely --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I think I'll just remind
18 the Court that the witness's testimony on direct was that these
19 individuals had been convicted and sentenced.
20 Q. And so, Mr. Vidovic, you have to indulge me. I can't give you
21 any more time, but --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, thank you for this
23 clarification, but I would like to come back to what Mr. Karnavas just
24 said. I thought I understood that nothing had been done; and this
25 document proves that things were done, that a trial was organised, and
1 that the accused were acquitted.
2 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I think we have a bit of a disagreement
3 here. As I said before, the gentleman's testimony on direct was that
4 they were convicted and sentenced. What I'm trying to do is impeach that
5 testimony. Thank you.
6 Q. So, sir, again, not to beat a dead horse --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I agree with you.
8 MS. WEST: Thank you, sir.
9 Q. Mr. Vidovic, this shows that they were acquitted; correct? This
10 piece of paper in front of you --
11 A. From what I can see in the document, that is correct.
12 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Vidovic, isn't it true that every criminal
13 report you wrote up or your people wrote up did not result in a
14 prosecution and conviction? Isn't that true?
15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour,
16 but I have a small objection, and this is it: Perhaps the witness should
17 first be asked how a policeman could know what happened to each case for
18 which he filed a criminal report, how it ended. It's not the job of the
19 police to follow every trial. So it's a little bit strange, this
20 question. How can the witness be expected to know?
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the witness who is
22 before us is very much in a position to answer by himself without any
23 counsel taking the floor. This is someone who has conducted important
24 investigations, who had very important responsibilities, and until we get
25 any other reason to think so, he has always been able to answer the
1 questions. So let him answer. And in redirect, if his answer does not
2 suit you, then -- or does not please you, you will have plenty of time to
3 put across what you want to put across. But for the time, being he's
5 So, please, Witness, could you answer the question put to you by
6 Ms. West.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this, Ms. West: At this
8 time, I was a civilian. I don't know what was going on in court. I was
9 an ordinary citizen and had been for some time. And when we filed a
10 criminal report about this, we thought that there were sufficient
11 elements for criminal proceedings to be taken against these four persons.
12 From this document, I can see that one of those four men, before that --
13 or, yes, I will answer.
14 MS. WEST:
15 Q. I think you misunderstood my question, but let me just ask you a
16 very general question and see if you can help us. For the Trial Chamber
17 to determine the HVO's real commitment to an unbiassed and autonomous
18 judicial system, wouldn't it be better for them to see the number of
19 prosecutions and convictions that the HVO facilitated?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me. I would object on the grounds that
21 it's up to the Prosecution to show evidence. The burden should not be
22 switched onto the Defence. And that's what -- exactly what the
23 Prosecutor is doing. Where is it that she's gone over there after the
24 last ten years, gotten the evidence, and showing him to try to impeach
25 him on these grounds that nothing was done or that the courts did not
1 work on -- or however the courts were working? It is for the
2 Prosecution, not to use this gentleman. Keeping in mind that when I did
3 try to introduce the Rome Agreement which this office has been working
4 with on the government over there where nothing could be done as of 1995,
5 1996 -- 1996 onwards, without authorisation from the Prosecution, I was
6 prevented from doing so on the grounds that the gentleman could not
7 comment because it was beyond the point of his employment in the
8 services. Now, however, she wishes to question him about how the courts
9 were functioning well beyond his terms of employment when in fact she
10 hasn't produced one iota or piece of evidence that the courts were not
11 functioning in the manner in which she's describing them.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say, we actually support
13 Mr. Karnavas's objection. Not perhaps precisely -- in precisely the way
14 that he puts it, but that last question by Ms. West isn't an appropriate
15 question for a witness because it's effectively asking for the witness's
16 views on what the correct strategy or tactics should be in the
17 presentation of a case for Your Honours' judgement. And that is not for
18 the witness. It's not really a question of - where I slightly part
19 company with Mr. Karnavas - it's not so much a question of, you know,
20 where the burden of proof is or anything like that, it's -- because once
21 the case is proceeding, everybody's got to do what they can. It's just
22 not a matter for the witness at all. That question is a completely
23 inappropriate question.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you know that the
25 witness ceased to work in those services at a certain point in time, and
1 therefore he may not be in a position to answer your question because he
2 was no longer working there. So perhaps you can touch upon this question
3 in a more general nature by asking if a military policeman was aware of
4 the follow-up of decisions that were handed down by tribunals or courts
5 when those courts had been seized. And perhaps he will be in a position
6 to answer, but perhaps he doesn't know that either.
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Mr. Vidovic, you heard the Judge's questions. Do you know that
10 A. All I can say is this: While I was working in the crime
11 department of the military police, our department was a service of the
12 military prosecutor's office, and all our criminal reports filed went
13 towards the Prosecutor. But if we received a request from the Prosecutor
14 back, then we would have to act accordingly.
15 Q. Mr. Vidovic, let's turn to P03663. And you'll have that, I
16 believe, right in front of you. For everyone else it's in binder 1,
17 part 1. This is a document that you looked at yesterday at the very
18 beginning of the session with counsel for Mr. Coric. That document was a
19 different number, 3651 - I say this is only for the record. Yes. And
20 those questions focused on something else. But this is a document that
21 will be familiar to you, and this is meeting from July 22nd. And it's a
22 meeting with Mr. Coric and the chiefs of the department. And in it you
23 talk about the people at the Heliodrom, and you say:
24 "All those people," and this is the third paragraph, "all those
25 people who have been detained but against whom criminal proceedings have
1 not been initiated are according to the chief of the
2 Military Police Administration unknown to our department. This refers
3 solely to the large number of Muslims who have brought unselectively or
4 indiscriminately to the Heliodrom and you have since been forgotten. And
5 by inertia the crime prevention department has conducted interviews with
6 more than 2.000 people."
7 Go to the next paragraph. It says:
8 "As the head of the Department for Administration and Justice was
9 charged with drawing up a report of the Heliodrom, it follows that
10 according to the decisions of the institutions of this department, it is
11 the duty of the Department of Justice to appoint the warden and make all
12 decisions regarding the detainees."
13 Mr. Vidovic, my question regards this: It appears, from reading
14 this, that you and the people at this meeting, Mr. Coric, were concluding
15 that it was the Department of Justice that was responsible for those
16 detainees. Is that correct?
17 A. Ms. West, before I answer, let me give you an explanation. I did
18 not attend this meeting.
19 Q. That's fine. But can you tell me, because we spoke about this
20 document on direct, am I correct to say that the conclusion here is that
21 the Department of Justice was responsible for the detainees?
22 A. As I said yesterday and I'll repeat it today, this is a document
23 which I wrote to the prison warden, and I am asking that the --
24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, my apologies.
25 A. -- Ministry of Justice -- so yes, yes, yes.
1 Q. All right. So it would appear then that the military police is
2 indicating that instead of itself being responsible for the Heliodrom
3 it's the Department of Justice.
4 Mr. Vidovic, will you confirm for me, in fact, that Mr. Coric
5 appointed the warden, appointed Stanko Bozic as the warden of Heliodrom
6 in December of 1992?
7 A. I don't know that, but I think that the answer is no. But as I
8 say, I don't actually know, myself.
9 Q. Okay. I'm going to put this to you and then I'm going to ask you
10 to comment about it. To me this sounds like the military police
11 participants in the meeting know that bad things are going on at the
12 Heliodrom with the Muslims and they're trying to get out of
13 responsibility for what's happening at the prison and find someone else
14 to blame. Would you agree with that? And you can tell me Yes or No or I
15 don't know.
16 A. I'll say no to that.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I don't agree with your position.
19 Q. Well let's look at another report and you can tell me if what's
20 stated in it sounds familiar to you. We're going to go to P04841. 4841.
21 It's in the same section. You'll have it right in front of you. This is
22 six weeks later; this is September 6. At this point, the prison
23 situation is --
24 A. Can you please repeat the number of the document, please.
25 Q. And this is a meeting; Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic are at it. And
1 in it they're talking about the detention of persons. And under number 1
2 they say:
3 "On the basis of verbal reports and insights gained into the
4 manner of executing punishments and conditions of detention of persons
5 captured as active-duty and reserve enemy forces and persons preparing an
6 armed rebellion the situation was declared unsatisfactory and harmful to
7 the reputation and interests of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna
8 It was also concluded that the responsibility for the present situation
9 does not lie with the HVO."
10 My question to you is, What familiar theme do you see emerging at
11 this meeting as compared to the military police meeting that Mr. Coric
12 attended six weeks earlier?
13 A. It's very difficult for me to answer because, at the time, this
14 was not the level at which I was working. For most of these people, I
15 only knew who they are. But I simply cannot answer what was going on
16 within the government of the HR HB. I didn't know that at the time. It
17 was a level much higher than the one at which I was.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vidovic. Judge Antonetti asked you --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. West. To make
20 your job easier, let me remind you that you have two minutes left at
21 best, so please try and finish.
22 MS. WEST: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that time.
24 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President, I will.
25 Q. Earlier this week the President asked you about who was in a
1 position to free the people at the Heliodrom, and your answer - and I'll
2 quote - was:
3 "I don't know under whose authority they were or who had
4 authority to do that."
5 Now, I'm going to show you some recent testimony in this case.
6 MS. WEST: And if we could have Sanction, please.
7 Q. We, Mr. Vidovic, have heard the same response from at least two
8 other witnesses in this courtroom, one of whom was the head of the
9 military -- or was military head commander of the HVO during the period
10 of time when the camps -- you can't hear anything?
11 A. I haven't translate.
12 Q. We don't have a translation. Can you hear me now?
13 A. Yes, but --
14 Q. Do you hear it in B/C/S?
15 A. No. In English, yes.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: I can hear the B/C/S.
17 MS. WEST:
18 Q. Mr. Vidovic, can you hear the B/C/S now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very good. Okay. So recently we have heard testimony on this
21 issue from Mr. Petkovic and also from Mr. Praljak. And I'd like to look
22 at that testimony. From Mr. Petkovic on March 9th he was asked about who
23 was in charge of the camps on direct examination, and he said:
24 "... everything else was for somebody else to take care of."
25 That was February 17th. He was then asked about it on
1 cross-examination, and he said -- in regard to who was responsible, and
2 he said:
3 "No, it wasn't me, and the Main Staff had nothing to do with
5 Mr. Praljak was also asked about this, who was in charge of
6 Heliodrom, and he said:
7 "It was not under the Main Staff. So let me repeat. It's not
8 under the Main Staff, but I can't really tell you under whom it was."
9 So, Mr. Vidovic, my question is this: How is it that you, the
10 head of the military police crime investigative services in Mostar, you
11 were the person who processed these 2.000 plus people into the Heliodrom;
12 you were notified over 60 times in regard to the wounding and killing of
13 the prisoners while they were there; and you facilitated their
14 deportation to third countries; how is it that if you were involved that
15 intimately with the Heliodrom, you didn't know who was responsible for
16 running it?
17 A. I stick to my statement; I can only extend it partly. Everything
18 I know about Heliodrom was that there was a security platoon of military
19 police which was part of the battalion that I was in, and there was the
20 detention centre administration. These were two men and one female:
21 Mr. Bozic, Mr. Praljak, and a woman. I don't know her name. But I'm not
22 sure under whose command they were. All along I thought that they were
23 under the command of the military judiciary.
24 This is all I can tell you and everything I can say. I did not
25 stay at Heliodrom. I used to come there. I worked there sometimes. But
1 my seat was at the engineering faculty in Mostar and later on it was in
2 Ljubuski. And that is all I can say as an answer to your question.
3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. Vidovic.
4 Thank you, Mr. President, I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
6 counsel, I have a straightforward follow-up question which is of
7 technical nature.
8 You have just said, Witness, that you thought that the Heliodrom
9 came under the command of the military judiciary. I would like to know
10 this, perhaps you are unable to answer because you are not kept abreast
11 of what is happening in your federation, but I assume that there are
12 military prisons that operate these days. If such military prisons
13 exist, who controls these prisons, the military judiciary, the civilian
14 authorities, the staff of the federation, as things stand today? Are you
15 able to answer this question? If you don't know, I understand full well
16 that you are no longer in charge of these matters.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know how this
18 operates today, especially in terms of the military judiciary.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
20 Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic, you have the floor. Theoretically, based
21 on our decision, you had 60 seconds left. We actually calculated the
22 seconds. But since you have some time credit, the time you will actually
23 be using now will be deducted from your overall allotted time.
24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 I think that I will be very brief. Could we please give the witness our
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Take your time. We have the
4 Re-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vidovic, first of all I wish to clarify some
6 details of your CV with you. We talked about these things on the first
7 day, but I was warned that some things were not recorded correctly
8 because we had problems with LiveNote. So I wish to go through it again
9 just briefly and only through the details that remained unclear.
10 Is it correct that at the beginning of the war you were a member
11 of the 3rd Cim Battalion of the Mostar HVO?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The name of the battalion is Cim, C-i-m.
14 And during the time while you were in the military police, you
15 were educated at the faculty of crime science in Zagreb; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In November 1993, you were in Ljubuski and your task was that you
18 were stand-in chief of the -- you were acting chief of the crime
19 department, but you never became the chief of the department; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the same time, in the month of November, you were parallelly
23 following your studies in Zagreb
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Please make a pause after I ask you the question.
2 So these were the details of your biography that I wanted to
3 clarify. You have mentioned this several times during the examination in
4 chief, but I wished to reconfirm that.
5 You have told us already that your department, Mostar, was a part
6 of the battalion that was first called the 3rd Battalion and then the
7 5th Military Police Battalion, and that's how it was throughout the time
8 that you spent in Mostar.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I wish to go back briefly to the cross-examination of the
11 Petkovic Defence from pages 51607 and 51608 of the transcript. During
12 the examination-in-chief, which is on pages 51529 and 51530, you said
13 that people from the Heliodrom administration told you that an order had
14 come from Colonel Obradovic that as early as on the next day and onwards
15 you would not be allowed access to Heliodrom and you would not be allowed
16 to interview the people you were investigating. After that, you
17 addressed the operation zone to allow you to do your work. You got the
18 approval, and you continued working.
19 Now, I wish to recollect a few things in connection with this and
20 look at some of the documents briefly. Please look at the first
21 document. That's P03238. In the middle paragraph of this document, in
22 the penultimate sentence, you are talking about this order, and you say
23 that without his signature - and you mean Colonel Obradovic - a visit
24 could not be organised and none of the detainees could be freed from the
25 central military-manned prison, Heliodrom.
1 If I understood you properly, and I see that that's what the
2 document says, did you see this order personally or did you just receive
3 the orders at Heliodrom when you got there to do your work? Can you
4 remember that?
5 A. We were told this at Heliodrom when we got there to work. We
6 were warned that from the next day on we wouldn't be allowed to enter.
7 Q. Can you please look at the next document now. It's P03201. In
8 the previous document you talked about the fact that you wouldn't be able
9 to enter and that without Colonel Obradovic's order no one would be
10 allowed in. This is a document which Mr. Petkovic's Defence presented to
11 you. The date is the 5th of July. We have seen that your document, the
12 previous one, was dated the 6th of July. And here it says:
13 "No one shall be released from your prison without my personal
15 Please tell me, did you have this order in mind when you talked
16 about releasing anyone from the prison in your document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now please look at the next document. That's P031 --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm looking at this order, and
20 I'm trying to understand it. In military terms, there's always a reason
21 for an order to be issued, and here it is stipulated that it is with a
22 view to enforcing order and discipline. That is the grounds for the
23 order. The Defence counsel did not highlight this.
24 Based on this, I have the following question, and I'm sure you'll
25 be able to answer it: As we know, since you have told us, because we
1 have had evidence to that effect, we know that the prison is guarded by
2 military policemen. There are guards standing guard in front of it. So
3 if someone leaves the prison, the guards can be implicated because they
4 are permissive and let the people out. So Colonel Obradovic can issue
5 this order to say that anybody leaving the prison should be vetted by him
6 with his signature. That could be one of the grounds.
7 What do you think of this? Could this be a way of restoring
8 order and discipline by making all the prison wardens aware of the fact
9 that from now onwards anybody leaving the prison should bear the
10 signature of Colonel Obradovic to avoid chaos, disorder, or whatever else
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will remind you
13 that on several occasions I already said that we, the crime department
14 and also the Military Police Platoon that was securing the place, were a
15 part of the Military Police Battalion and each operation zone had one
16 Military Police Battalion as part of its composition. At that moment,
17 Mr. Obradovic, as far as I can remember, was the commander of the
18 operation zone.
19 That is the first part of my answer. And the second part is
20 this: You are right, because if you can remember, I already explained
21 that within the Heliodrom compound there was a number of buildings, only
22 one of which was the prison building. Other buildings housed soldiers.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question now: Since we
24 know that there are some detainees that are subject to a committal order,
25 because we know that this is also a civilian prison, can
1 Colonel Obradovic intervene in the way military justice operates and with
2 a committal order of a detainee that has been instructed by a military
3 investigating judge or civil judge or public prosecutor? Can he
4 interfere or intervene in any way?
5 Let me supplement my question: By opposing the departure of
6 someone he had released.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's obvious that in
8 this order he acts as someone who is superior to the prison warden at
9 Heliodrom. This is all I can see in this order. And let me repeat, we
10 were informed that unless we did something, on the following day we would
11 not be able to enter and do our work. And that's where all my
12 information about this ended.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Vidovic, let us just clarify something very briefly. It says
16 down here: "Commander of Sector South." That's above the signature.
17 Was that the position held by Colonel Obradovic at the moment?
18 A. Well, if that's what it says, then probably that was what it was.
19 That was probably the sector that became the operation zone later on, but
20 I cannot judge on the exact names, whether it was a sector or the
21 operation zone, but more or less that was it.
22 Q. Tell me, do you know if these four prisons which are mentioned
23 here, if they were geographically part of Sector South? I mean, Gabela,
24 Dretelj, Heliodrom, and Ljubuski.
25 A. They're all to the south of Mostar. So if we follow that logic,
1 then probably they are.
2 Q. Let us look at P03161, please. It is the next document. And I
3 will remind you that in the previous document with which it all started
4 you talked about visiting the prison, entering the prison, and also
5 release from prison. This is a document from Colonel Obradovic dated the
6 3rd of July, 1993, and it says:
7 "... I order all visits -- due to the newly arisen situation in
8 the prisons and with the aim of preventing contacts with prisoners during
9 the investigation procedure, I order all visits and access by
10 unauthorised persons to all prisoners in our prisons are forbidden.
11 "All prison administrators are personally answerable to me for
12 the execution of this order."
13 Tell us, is this the order which relates to the part of your
14 testimony in which you told us that you couldn't enter the place?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you please look at the next document now. It's P0 --
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, were you not an authorised person? You
18 had organically, by your function, you had business to do there. I would
19 assume that you are an authorised person. Apparently that was not the
20 case. Could you explain?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had an ID card of
22 military police and also a military police badge. At the premises of the
23 Heliodrom prison, they had a list which listed all the members of our
24 department. By this order, Mr. Obradovic placed me and my department
25 among the unauthorised persons. That was why I protested against that in
1 the document dated the 6th of July.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Vidovic, the next document is P03220, and I'd like us to look
5 at the first page.
6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] And I'll say for the
7 record that the first page of this document is identical to document
8 P03216, which we haven't included in the binder because it's not
9 necessary. One will suffice.
10 Q. Now, this document was also shown to you by the Petkovic Defence.
11 And on page 51608 of the transcript you said that you would like to say
12 three things about this document. However, you weren't given the
13 opportunity during the cross-examination to do so, and I'm going to give
14 you that opportunity now, to put those three points to us. But first of
15 all I'm going to ask you a few short questions.
16 We see at the bottom of there that the document was sent to the
17 wardens of Gabela prison, Dretelj prison, Heliodrom, and Ljubuski. Tell
18 us now, please, do you have any knowledge whatsoever under whose
19 authority the Gabela prison was, as well as the Dretelj prison, in this
20 month of July 1993 when all this was going on? Do you know anything
21 about those two prisons? Just a brief answer, please.
22 A. Gabela prison, well, I was never there. All I know is that at
23 that time - you said July 1993 - it was under the control of the brigade
24 called Knez Domagoj, the Knez Domagoj Brigade. That's right.
25 As for Dretelj prison, I think that that, too, was under the
1 control of the brigade.
2 We've explained about Heliodrom several times and a moment ago as
4 As for Ljubuski, well, Ljubuski prison, towards the end of 1992,
5 ceased to be a military investigative prison and became a prison of the
6 brigade. And I think that sometime in September 1993 it once again
7 became a military investigative prison. And I know that because of the
8 man who worked there later on, that is to say, Mr. Ivica Kraljevic. So I
9 think that Ljubuski, as of September, came under the control of the
10 military police again. And in the period at the end of 1992 and until
11 September 1993, that it was also under the brigade.
12 Q. Now, since you said that you never went to Gabela and Dretelj,
13 you said that yesterday, how come you know that?
14 A. Well, it's my general knowledge, the general information I had
15 going about my business. Just general information.
16 Q. When you -- when you say "general information," "going about your
17 business," did you have colleagues who went to those prisons and knew
18 something about them?
19 A. Yes, that's right. Exactly. There were people who worked in the
20 crime centres, other ones, and we exchanged information with those
21 centres, working on certain cases, so that's how I came to learn about
22 these two facilities and about the existence of those two prisons.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Vidovic, what three things did you want to say about
24 this document, if you can remember now?
25 A. If I remember this document, then under number 1 I would say that
1 there's no heading. And this "military police" that it says here, it's a
2 general concept. And I doubt that a document would reach the
3 Military Police Administration in this form with no header, no year
4 mentioned. And this isn't Mr. Valentin Coric's signature either.
5 Q. Very well, Mr. Vidovic. Now, tell me, please, can you remember
6 where you were on the 30th of June, 1993? You said that on that day the
7 BH Army --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I don't know whether
9 Coric's Defence team challenges this document, stating that it is a false
10 document. Irrespective of this, I'm hugely interested in paragraph 3,
11 because when I look at all three paragraphs, it seems, if this document
12 is a true document, that Mr. Coric indicates that the prison is under the
13 jurisdiction of the military police, in other words, under the military
14 authority, because you told us that this was a military judiciary. You
15 told us that the military prison came under the military judiciary. This
16 is what I might be able to understand. And paragraph 3 seems to end --
17 say to Colonel Obradovic that the prisoners who were captured by the
18 1st Knez Domagoj Brigade, who don't seem to come under this judiciary,
19 should be released; but if they are released, Colonel Obradovic needs to
20 approve this since he -- they are under his authority and not under the
21 judicial authority.
22 How do you interpret this said paragraph?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking me to interpret
24 just that paragraph, all -- what I can say is that most probably you are
25 thinking, and I can confirm, that they were those disarmed members of the
1 HVO. But, Your Honour, this whole document is a bit suspect, if I can
2 put it that way, and mildly too.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, I will
4 slightly correct what you said. I'm not thinking anything; I'm just
5 voicing a hypothesis here. So this is a case that I put to you, but I do
6 not draw any conclusions from this.
7 Counsel, please proceed.
8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to remind
9 Your Honours, before I continue, that we challenged the authenticity of
10 this document several times. And as for its authenticity, we conducted
11 cross-examination with a Stojic witness. Slobodan Bozic was his name.
12 And this was recorded in the transcript on 36413 and 36414. That's all I
13 wanted to remind you of.
14 Q. Now, Witness, I asked you whether you remember -- you said that
15 on the 30th of June the attack was launched by the BH Army against the
16 HVO at south -- at North Camp in Mostar. Do you remember where you were,
17 yourself, on the 30th of June?
18 A. I was in Mostar on that day in military operations in North Camp.
19 My uncle disappeared. He was an HVO member, and he disappeared on that
20 operation. He was in Zalik Protection Company. And in the next few days
21 I did my best to learn his whereabouts or to learn about what had
22 happened to him generally. Unfortunately, he was killed in those war
23 operations. And those activities of mine went on for the next five or
24 six days, from the 30th of June, which is what you asked me about,
1 Q. Mr. Vidovic, on the 30th of June, were you at Heliodrom?
2 A. I wasn't at Heliodrom on the 30th of June.
3 Q. Now, let's take a look at the next document, which is P00352.
4 We're going to skip one and go on to the next. And you have the green
5 stickers, and the pink stickers will indicate the pages we're going to
6 look at in the Croatian and English. It is Josip Praljak's diary. And
7 the pages we're going to look at refer to the 30th of June, 1993
8 can see the date in the upper-left-hand corner.
9 Yes, the page number I want us to look at in Croatian is
10 0354-0197, and in English it is 0354-0197, or page 27.
11 It says here, in the entry for the 30th of June, in the second
13 "When being arrested, all the organisation about taking these
14 people in and processing them, registering, was taken over by the head of
15 the crime department, Zvonko Vidovic."
16 And then it says who came. And it says:
17 "Bozic: Zvonko, can we take part in this registration
18 process ..." et cetera.
19 Now, you told us a moment ago that on the 30th of June you were
20 not in Heliodrom and explained to us why. Now, Mr. Vidovic, do you have
21 any comment to make with respect to this entry in the diary, and is this
22 true what it says here or not?
23 A. It's not true, because on the 30th of June, I said a moment
24 ago -- I told you what happened to me on the 30th of June, and I stand by
1 Q. We finished with the documents now. I just have a few short
2 things to ask you now.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just -- just a question to make sure, Witness.
4 Can you exclude that you were contacted by telephone or some other means
5 of telecommunication on the 30th of June and answered the question that
6 is mentioned in the diary?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I remember
8 correctly, and I do believe that I do remember, I spent the whole day,
9 the whole of that day, in the north area of the -- northern area of the
10 town where I was investigating with the soldiers, asking the soldiers who
11 had crossed the Neretva River
12 Dragan Vidovic. I think that I spent -- that I talked to those soldiers
13 until late at night.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Vidovic, yesterday, when asked by the Prosecutor, you
17 explained to us how several days after the 30th of June you, under orders
18 from the operative zone, went to Heliodrom and drew up a list of the
19 disarmed members of the HVO who you came across there. And on page 14 of
20 the transcript it says that the -- that the -- you compiled the list on
21 the basis of information given to you by the persons who were there and
22 who had been disarmed. Is that correct? Have I summarised it correctly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You also said that you handed the list over to the people in the
25 prison; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Tell us, please, did you check out the information on the list
3 later on? Did you ever get the list back, or did it remain in the
5 A. The service I worked for had nothing more to do with those lists.
6 Q. Do you know whether the information that the people provided you
7 with, since you didn't check them out later on, do you know whether the
8 information they gave you was correct?
9 A. We couldn't know that at the time. We couldn't know whether what
10 they told us was correct or not.
11 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Vidovic, do you remember whether in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina there was general mobilisation in force during this
13 time of war? Do you remember that? Was there an all-out mobilisation?
14 A. I remember that mobilisation had taken place, but I can't say for
15 sure at what point in time it was declared general mobilisation, because
16 my role in the war was as a volunteer in those first days.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, regardless of when it was
18 proclaimed - you don't have to know that - who did it encompass? Who
19 were the military conscripts called up when a general mobilisation was
21 A. All military-able men above the age of 18 and under the age of
22 60, of course.
23 Q. What about women? Were they included in this general
24 mobilisation, if you know?
25 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I object to these questions. We didn't
1 spoke about mobilisation in the cross-examination.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel, during the
3 cross-examination this issue of mobilisation was never touched upon.
4 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this topic
5 was linked to the cross-examination by the Prosecutor who said that the
6 persons in Heliodrom were civilians. I just want to clear this up,
7 because yesterday during part of the examination we had a situation when
8 I got to my feet and asked what the lists referred to, because we didn't
9 know whether they referred to civilians who were at Heliodrom or
10 soldiers, all of whom had committed crimes, or these disarmed persons.
11 So I'm trying to clarify what it referred to.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand
13 your question correctly, it's to clarify the issue of civilians and
14 military, and it has nothing to do with mobilisation. So very well,
15 please proceed.
16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. My question was about women. Did women have the duty to respond
18 to the mobilisation call?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the Prosecutor asked you whether the persons disarmed wore
21 different clothing, uniforms, or whatever. Tell me, please, on the basis
22 of clothing, someone's clothing, or whether somebody was wearing a
23 uniform, are you -- would one be able to conclude whether somebody
24 belonged to a unit or not or whether they were a military conscript or
25 not just judging by the clothes they were wearing?
1 A. No. You couldn't judge that by the clothes they were wearing,
2 who was a civilian and who was a conscript.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, that is an important
4 question that is put to you right now. We have a lot of documents
5 talking about military personnel as well as civilians. Given that you
6 were a military policeman, how do you make a distinction between a
7 military person and a civilian? Does a military person carry a military
8 ID card proving that they work for the military? And at the time - I
9 don't know whether it was working - I was wondering whether civilians
10 would carry an ID document proving that they are civilians, or did anyone
11 have to carry -- didn't anyone have to carry any ID documents?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, every military person
13 had a military ID card. I received my first ID card sometime in
14 May 1992. And everybody who was a regular member of a unit, military
15 unit, was supposed to have an ID indicating the unit to which he
16 belonged, and that was how we could establish whether a soldier --
17 whether someone was a soldier and which unit they belonged to.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may follow up. And can you affirm that
19 these 2.000 persons that were detained in Heliodrom, they all had a
20 military ID card, whether they be men or women?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't confirm that. We
22 already said yesterday -- we discussed those persons yesterday when we
23 looked at the lists. They just told us what they wanted, and then we
24 just wrote it down. We couldn't check out whether it was true or not.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And you did not ask for the military ID card?
1 Because you have now just said that they were not civilians; they were
2 all military, due to the mobilisation.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if somebody had an ID card on
4 them, then they would show it to us, I assume, although I can't remember
5 that now because it's been many years since then. But I assume that if
6 somebody had an ID card, they showed it to us.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, very quickly, we have
9 seen several documents regarding people that were interviewed by the
10 police, be it the civilian police or the military police, and as far as I
11 can recollect, I can remember that sometimes - perhaps it was all the
12 time, but I could not vouch for that a hundred per cent - we have the
13 name of the person and then we have the ID number. Based on that, when
14 you used to go to the Heliodrom and you would interview those
15 2.000 people - I'm talking you -- about you, but I know that is also the
16 MUP as well as the SIS - but generally speaking, the work of someone
17 doing the questioning is to ask for the name and the surname, the date of
18 birth, as well as the ID document number. Was that done?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we saw in one
20 document that was presented to me, and I remember it, that some persons
21 were questioned in a general manner, and, in addition to other general
22 answers, they would say which unit they belonged to. But, once again, I
23 have to tell you that we only conducted an interview which lasted as long
24 as we needed for the man to say the sentence that was written down; first
25 and last name, date of birth, and current status.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course, Witness, but you've
2 seen that when I asked you to read the affirmation - and I'm one of the
3 very few Judges in this Tribunal to proceed this way, and I do it in
4 order to avoid any confusion because I want to be sure that witnesses
5 before us are the correct ones. So I always ask for the name, the
6 surname, the date of birth, the occupation or the profession, and whether
7 they've already testified before a court of law. And I do that
8 systematically. So if I worked for the military police, I would do
9 exactly the same: Name; first name; date of birth; address; and
10 occupation; and also whether they have the status of a military person or
11 a civilian. And if they work for the military, then they should know
12 their ID number, their military ID number. But you are saying that you
13 didn't really do it systematically. This is what I can deduce from what
14 you're saying.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can only answer
16 that as you have seen from many documents and the later inquiries I made
17 on behalf of our service, that that was the duty that was, so to speak,
18 imposed on us. With the few men we had, we had too much work to do
19 anyway within the service that we belonged to.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will not insist
21 on that.
22 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Vidovic, if I understood you well, I think you have
24 reiterated this several times. These 2.000 persons, what exactly did you
25 do with them? I understood that you made the lists. Not just you, but
1 the whole group that was there. That in the lists you collected their
2 personal information, and you collected the information that each of the
3 persons gave you, and the information included the first and last names,
4 the date of birth, residence, and their status. And they would say what
5 their status was, whether they were soldiers or civilians. Did I say
6 this properly?
7 A. Precisely. We did not force anyone to tell us anything. If they
8 would state that they were HVO soldiers, we would write down "HVO
9 soldiers." If he said civilian, we would record "civilian." We put down
10 what people told us at the moment.
11 Q. All right. Did you ask them anything more except these
12 personal -- this personal information? Did you take any statements from
14 A. No.
15 Q. Please tell me whether there were any military departments or
16 defence offices in this area which had military records of all
17 able-bodied men.
18 A. I know about Mostar. There was a military department in Mostar.
19 I suppose that there were military departments that had military records
20 in other places as well.
21 Q. Tell me, did you serve the army in the JNA?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Before you left to serve the army, did you go through the process
24 that was called recruiting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us who are were all the categories of the population
2 who were obliged to go through this process?
3 A. Those who went through it were male persons who were adults. And
4 in a medical examination, the degree of their ability would be assessed,
5 both physical and mental, in order to serve army in the JNA at the time.
6 Q. All right, Mr. Vidovic. Now, please tell me, yesterday on
7 several occasions the Prosecutor asked you about lists. I tried to
8 intervene, but then I left it for the redirect because I did not manage
9 to do it then.
10 When you answered questions about lists yesterday, what lists
11 were you talking about? Were these the lists that you talked about today
12 when you were answering my questions, or were there any other lists as
14 A. If I understood your question properly, there were lists in our
15 department, lists of the soldiers against whom we were conducting
16 proceedings and filing criminal reports.
17 Q. All right. That was one list. Other lists are the ones that I
18 asked you about just now, the ones with general information about persons
19 detained in Heliodrom.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see any other lists, or are these the lists, these two
22 lists, are these the lists that you were talking about all along
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What do you mean "Yes"? You only saw these two lists?
1 A. We had the lists that we had in my service, and once when we were
2 charged in making the lists which we submitted to Heliodrom.
3 Q. And you never saw any other list? You have to say it more
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. Fine. And my last question, Mr. Vidovic: Please tell me, you
7 have lived all your life in Mostar, and you're living there to this day;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell me, do you move around the -- both the eastern and western
11 bank in Mostar, and what relations do you have with the people in Mostar?
12 Are there any Muslims living there whom you know from the war time and
13 from before the war who are living there now?
14 A. I move through the whole city to this day, and I will answer your
15 question with one single sentence: My daughter is 15, and I taught her
16 one very important thing. She has no ideas about the left and right
17 sides of Mostar or this and that side, as we call them in Mostar. I
18 think I've made it clear enough.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vidovic.
20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 I have concluded my questions for this witness. And if you allow me, I
22 would just address the Trial Chamber in three minutes, and that's not
23 connected with the testimony of this witness. We can do it in the
24 presence of the witness or in his absence.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we'll escort the witness
1 out of the courtroom.
2 Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you
3 for having come to The Hague
4 the Coric Defence team. I wish you a good trip back home to your
5 country, and I'm going to ask the usher to escort you out of the
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel.
9 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 On behalf of the Coric Defence and Mr. Coric, I'd like to say the
11 following: We analysed our case constantly, as well as the Prosecution
12 case, and closely analysed and evaluated both the Defence case and the
13 Prosecution case and their exhibits and evidence, our own and that of the
14 other Defence teams, and having consulted Mr. Coric, we consider that we
15 admitted enough -- or, rather, showed enough evidence to show reasonable
16 doubt in the case against our client. We don't intend to explain and go
17 into detail of our decision, but I would like to say that I have the
18 pleasure of announcing that that was the last witness that we intend to
19 call on behalf of the Coric Defence.
20 Your Honours, we would like to thank you for your attention and
21 everybody else in the courtroom, the attention shown to us during our
22 defence case. All I want to say is that that completes our defence case,
23 except that I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to give us until the
24 24th to submit our motion for documentary evidence, if that is possible.
25 If not, we shall submit it earlier. The date is the 20th of April, by
1 the 20th of April. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have understood correctly,
3 does this mean that Mr. Coric will not testify and that you have no more
5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] That's right,
6 Your Honour. Trial -- trial proceedings are a live process. The
7 situation can change from one day to the next depending on how the
8 witnesses testify, what is happening in the courtroom, and so we have
9 weighed all this up and made the decision that we have made.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore,
11 Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic, I was looking at the schedule for the months of
12 April. As you know, there will be no hearings next week, and we had
13 planned to resume on the 19th of April -- the 12th of April, I'm sorry,
14 which means that there will be no hearing on the 12th of April. In that
15 case, I would like to turn to Mr. Pusic's Defence counsel.
16 Could we have witnesses on the 12th of April?
17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 You've given me the floor. I don't think I can do that just now, because
19 if we look at the schedule that we received from the Coric Defence with
20 the 30th of April, well, we didn't think that the Defence case would end
21 today. We thought that Mr. Coric would be testifying. So in the best of
22 cases, we thought we'd start our Defence case at the end of May or the
23 beginning of June. Perhaps if -- we'll do our best to bring in a witness
24 by the 26th of April; that's Variant A. But we haven't yet decided
25 whether we will be presenting a Defence case at all, and we'll give that
1 some more thought. We shall be informing the Court in due course.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, you will have
3 to let us know, because this is of interest to everyone. You will have
4 to inform us very quickly, i.e., whether, (A), you intend to all any
5 witnesses. This is an extremely important point. And if it is the case,
6 if you can call your first witness on the 26th of April already, because
7 we have a slot on the 26th of April. You will, of course, have to see
8 this with Mr. Pusic, which is quite understandable.
9 For the time being, we will wait and see and wait for you to let
10 us know. As soon as you can let us know, we will order -- we will issue
11 a Scheduling Order to indicate when you first witnesses -- witness will
12 take the stand. If you were to tell us that you don't wish to call any
13 witnesses, I believe it would be nonetheless important to have a hearing
14 to address the issue of pre-trial briefs or closing briefs, because you
15 might need some time for that. In that case, we will hold a housekeeping
17 Mr. Ibrisimovic, you need to let us know whether you intend to
18 call any witnesses; and if you do, when do you intend to do so. And you
19 must let us know.
20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I
21 don't know if I've said good afternoon today yet, but good afternoon to
22 everybody in the courtroom as well. I would just like to remind you at
23 this point that we have announced a witness, Momcilo Mandic, and I see
24 that Judge Trechsel is acknowledging -- may I just go into private
25 session for just a moment. I won't keep us long.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 51755-51759 redacted.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session let me say this
25 so that it is on the record: Normally speaking, the next witness will
1 come on the 10th of May at a quarter past 2.00. In the meantime,
2 Mr. Ibrisimovic will let us know whether he intends to call witnesses for
3 the defence of Mr. Pusic, something which he intends to do next week.
4 That said, I would like to thank you all.
5 The Court stands adjourned for today.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.04 p.m.
7 sine die.