1 Wednesday, 26 October 2005
2 [Motion Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.09 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-95-12-PT, the Prosecutor of the Tribunal against Ivica Rajic, also
9 known as Viktor Andric.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
11 Well, may we have the appearances, please. For the Prosecution?
12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honours. Good afternoon. Kenneth Scott for
13 the Prosecution. With me is trial attorney Josee D'Aoust, and our case
14 manager, of course, Skye Winner. Thank you.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
16 And for the Defence.
17 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 Co-counsel Doris Kosta appearing for Mr. Ivica Rajic.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, madam.
20 Well, Mr. Rajic, can you follow the proceedings in a language that
21 you understand?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE LIU: Do you have anything to complain at this stage?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, not at this stage, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
1 Well, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This Trial Chamber is
2 seized of the filing of documents relating to Rule 62 ter filed jointly by
3 the Prosecution and the Defence dated the 25th October 2005. Two
4 documents and several annexes attached to this motion which are the plea
5 agreement and the factual basis.
6 First of all, we would like to ask the parties to brief us on
7 those documents first, and after that, the Judges might have some
8 questions to those parties.
9 Yes, Mr. Scott.
10 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, Mr. President, you're
11 correct. Two documents have been filed in connection with today's
12 hearing. One is a document titled Plea Agreement. Another document is
13 titled Factual Basis. Those documents, of course, have been non-public up
14 until this moment, but now that the hearing has begun we would -- by joint
15 agreement with the Defence, we would ask that those documents be released
16 to the public with the important exception, please, of confidential
17 Annex 3. But with the exception of Annex 3, all of these documents may
18 now be, with the Court's permission, released to the public.
19 JUDGE LIU: Could I turn to the Defence. Any objections to that?
20 Madam Kosta.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
22 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no objections to what
23 the Prosecutor has just put forward.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have decided to lift the confidentiality of
2 the documents except the Annex 3.
3 You may proceed.
4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Your Honour, the Prosecution will provide the Chamber with a brief
6 summary of the plea agreement, and I know the Chamber has that of course
7 in front of you, but I will touch upon what might be considered the most
8 important or operative elements.
9 I should say at the outset for the record, purposes of the record,
10 that both of these documents, the plea agreement and the factual basis,
11 have also been fully prepared in the B/C/S or Croatian language and
12 available and of course carefully reviewed by the accused and counsel.
13 The plea agreement document, Your Honours, sets out the parties'
14 entire agreement. That is, there are no other agreements. There are no
15 so-called side agreements or nothing, no promises or suggestions on the
16 side apart from the agreements on the face of this document which the
17 Chamber has before it.
18 The plea agreement includes a waiver of various rights by the
19 accused, the right to remain silent, the right to plead not guilty and
20 require the Prosecution to prove its charges beyond and reasonable doubt,
21 the right to prepare and put forward a defence, the right to defend
22 himself in person or through legal assistance of counsel, the right to
23 examine at his trial or have examined the witnesses against him, and of
24 course the right not to be compelled to testify against himself.
25 The accused has waived these rights in going forward and
1 presenting this guilty plea agreement to Your Honours for your
3 The plea agreement involves the accused pleading guilty to four
4 counts of the amended indictment. An amended indictment was filed with
5 the Court's permission on the 14th of January, 2004. Under the plea
6 agreement, the accused will plead guilty to: Count 1, wilful killing, a
7 grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; Count 3 inhuman treatment,
8 including sexual assault, a grave breach of Geneva Conventions; Count 7,
9 appropriation of property, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; and,
10 finally, Count 9, extensive destruction not justified by military
11 necessity and carried out unlawful and wantonly, a grave breach of the
12 Geneva Conventions.
13 As an integral part of the plea agreement, a written factual basis
14 has been prepared which actually is the second document but which is also
15 incorporated in and part of the plea agreement itself. We will come to
16 that document, I'm sure, as this hearing continues, and I will put off the
17 discussion of that document until a further stage.
18 In summary, if I can say, Your Honours, in summary the facts --
19 the factual basis sets out that the accused Ivica Rajic is pleading guilty
20 to the charges because he is guilty and he accepts responsibility for the
21 actions and omissions that are charged as crimes in the amended
23 The plea agreement also advises or informs the accused of the
24 fundamental law under Articles 7(1) and 7(3) of the Tribunal Statute and
25 what the Prosecution would be required to prove in order to obtain
1 convictions related to either Article 7(1) and/or Article 7(3). The plea
2 agreement also sets out, so that the accused is fully informed, the
3 elements of each of the crimes to which he is pleading guilty, the crimes
4 that I've just mentioned a moment ago, Count 1, Count 3, Count 7, and
5 Count 9, and the elements of those offences are all set out in the
7 In terms of sentencing, Your Honours, the Prosecutor and the
8 accused Ivica Rajic agree and will recommend in connection with the pleas
9 of guilty to Counts 1, 3, 7, and 9 a single combined sentence in the range
10 of 12 to 15 years, and under the parties' agreement, the Defence,
11 Mr. Rajic, will be able to argue to this Chamber or to the sentencing
12 Chamber a sentence as low as 12 years and at the same time the Prosecutor
13 is able to, under the plea agreement argue, for a sentence of 15 years.
14 The Prosecutor and Mr. Rajic understand fully, and Mr. Rajic has
15 been informed, that whatever the parties' agreement or recommendation,
16 that of course is not binding on the Chamber.
17 As a further component of the plea agreement, Your Honours,
18 Mr. Rajic agrees to full and substantial cooperation with the Prosecutor,
19 which may involve the giving of truthful testimony in other proceedings.
20 Now, in terms of what the Prosecutor agrees to in exchange, if you
21 will, for Mr. Rajic's guilty pleas and the matters that I've discussed so
22 far, the Prosecutor agrees to the following: Again, to a single combined
23 sentence in the range of 12 to 15 years with the same proviso, the accused
24 can argue for sentence of 12 years, the Prosecution can argue for a
25 sentence of up to 15 years, again with the full understanding that
1 ultimately sentencing, of course, is entirely the discretion of the
2 sentencing Chamber.
3 Further, the Prosecutor agrees that at the time of the Trial
4 Chamber's acceptance of the guilty plea and sentence, the Prosecutor will
5 move to dismiss the remaining counts of the amended indictment without
6 prejudice. The counts, of course, to which Mr. Rajic is not entering a
7 guilty plea.
8 And finally, the Prosecutor will not bring any other ICTY charges
9 against Mr. Rajic except, and I think this is important, except he may be
10 prosecuted for perjury, obstruction of justice or contempt should in the
11 future he be found to be guilty of any of that conduct. Should he appear
12 as a witness in any proceeding and intentionally commit perjury, then
13 there is nothing in this plea agreement that would protect him against
14 prosecution for that.
15 Finally the -- in signing this plea agreement Mr. Rajic makes the
16 following fundamental affirmations: First, his pleas of guilty to
17 Counts 1, 3, 7 and 9 are made voluntarily. Second, the guilty pleas are
18 informed and that Mr. Rajic understands his rights, has been informed of
19 the procedures involved, and is fully informed of the nature and
20 consequences of his guilty pleas. Further, his guilty pleas are not
21 equivocal and he is pleading guilty because he is guilty and for no other
22 reason. Finally, he affirms that there is a sufficient factual basis for
23 the crimes to which he is pleading guilty and to his participation or role
24 in those crimes. And finally, as I said at the outset, the plea agreement
25 further confirms that this is in fact the parties' entire agreement as set
1 forth in this document.
2 And that is the summary, Your Honours, of the plea agreement.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
4 Could I now turn to the Defence. Madam Kosta, do you have
5 anything to add or have any observations to make?
6 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now that we have heard
7 the position of the OTP and since the joint filing was also a result of an
8 agreement that we had reached on the points put forward by the OTP, I'm
9 glad to say that we have no objections whatsoever to what has been
10 proposed, and we are fully in agreement with this proposal by the OTP.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Judge Orie, you may raise some questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have a few questions.
15 First of all, the -- the indictment and the charges brought
16 against the accused are brought under Article 7(1) and 7(3) of the
17 Statute. In view of the case law, we will have to determine whether this
18 is -- this responsibility is under -- as a result of the same acts where
19 we have to choose, and I would like to hear from the parties what the
20 Chamber should choose, and I would have an additional question to that as
21 well, or that the responsibility results from not the same actions, in
22 which case there is a possibility for multiple conviction. So therefore,
23 I'd like to hear from the parties. And if the preference would be for
24 Article 7(1), I would like to have a further explanation as to the factual
25 basis for a 7(1) responsibility, because the factual basis underlying the
1 plea agreement and the indictment certainly would allow for a 7(1)
2 responsibility, I would say, but it's not entirely clear what the factual
3 basis for a preference for 7(1) would be.
4 So first question, one or more acts, possibility of multiple
5 convictions; and second, the factual basis for the preference expressed by
6 the parties.
7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Orie, Your Honours.
8 The factual basis that's set out in the plea agreement and in the
9 second document that we've discussed so far this afternoon would provide a
10 factual basis in the Prosecution's view to conviction under both 7(1) and
11 7(3), or as Judge Orie mentions, you might say 7(1) and/or 7(3) based upon
12 different acts or different counts of the amended indictment. That is --
13 I'll talk about that and then I'll come back to Judge Orie's other
15 That is, there is nothing in the plea agreement as structured that
16 would prevent the Chamber if it so found to base part of its convictions
17 on some counts on a 7(1) theory and on other counts under 7(3) if the
18 Chamber took a view that that was the appropriate basis. I think the
19 factual basis that is put forth would support either or both theories as
20 do all counts that Mr. Rajic is pleading guilty to.
21 Having said that, it's the Prosecution's view that there is indeed
22 a factual basis, a sufficient factual basis for a 7(1) conviction on all
23 four counts based largely on the -- at least, I should say at least on the
24 substantial likelihood standard of the Blaskic appeals judgement. In the
25 Blaskic appeals judgement, as Your Honours know, the issue of mens rea or
1 state of mind for purposes of Article 7(1) was mentioned, and it was
2 concluded this -- I shouldn't say mentioned, it was extensively of course
3 discussed and analysed, and it was concluded that short of a direct
4 criminal order, if you will, an order that on its face by its very terms
5 is criminal, that the 7(1) standard can also be satisfied in a situation
6 where the accused was aware that the carrying out of his orders, the
7 carrying out of what he had put in motion, if you will, that there was a
8 substantial likelihood that that conduct -- that his orders, that the
9 carrying out of his orders or commands would indeed result in the crimes
10 charged -- ultimately charged in the indictment.
11 On that basis, and I believe in -- very specific that is addressed
12 in paragraph 19 of the factual basis where it says that Mr. Rajic was
13 aware that by ordering HVO commanders and soldiers under his command, and
14 I'll paraphrase, to do these various things, there was a substantial
15 likelihood that the crimes charged in the amended indictment would be
16 committed and nonetheless gave such orders with that awareness in
17 violation of Article 7(1).
18 Of course the Chamber again could pick and choose, if you will. I
19 see nothing in the factual basis or the indictment that would prevent the
20 Chamber from doing that. However, I think that consistent with Tribunal
21 practice if Your Honours were to find at the end of the day that the
22 accused could be convicted on both 7(1) and 7(3) on all counts, then the
23 Tribunal practice appears to be that usually the conviction is then or the
24 sentence is then based upon 7(1). But I think that all options, frankly,
25 are open to the Chamber, although the Prosecution takes the position that
1 there is a sufficient basis for Article 7(1) convictions on each count.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Kosta, would you like to add anything to that
3 or would you agree?
4 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as concerns the position
5 put forward by the OTP and in view of the fact that we are here today to
6 reach an agreement based on facts, the Defence will leave it to the Trial
7 Chamber to go through the facts and the evidence to ascertain whether
8 there is any responsibility under Article 7(1) and Article 7(3). We shall
9 endeavour to prove that there is in fact a de facto objective
10 responsibility only under one of those two Articles.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And which one then?
12 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] We shall try to prove 7(3).
13 JUDGE ORIE: But that means that if there's agreement on
14 paragraph 19, I have some difficulties in accepting that at a later stage
15 the Defence would argue that there's no 7(1) responsibility but only 7(3)
17 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I said is that we
18 are meeting here today because of the agreement, the fact that we agreed
19 to both 7(1) and 7(2) [sic]. During the proceedings, we shall be
20 delivering evidence in relation to the facts, and we shall leave the
21 decision to the Chamber.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So you finally do accept paragraph 19 that says
23 Mr. Rajic gave his orders in violation of the ICTY's Statute of
24 Article 7(1).
25 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] That was the agreement that we signed,
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that has been clarified again.
3 I have one other question perhaps for you, Mr. Scott. I did not
4 fully find the time to compare the factual basis with the Appeals Chamber
5 judgement in the Blaskic case. It takes a bit more time to carefully
6 compare them.
7 I take it that you have been involved in the conversations prior
8 to this plea agreement. Would there be any point where you would say that
9 this plea agreement and the factual basis for it would deviate from what
10 the Appeals Chamber has factually established in the Blaskic case, because
11 if that would be the case, we might want to look a bit closer to the
12 material that supports the -- the agreement on the factual basis.
13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Of course, yes, I have been closely
14 involved in these matters and discussions for some time, and I would say
15 as -- if I can start by perhaps just an intellectual observation, I think
16 there is an interesting question or issue -- not so much an issue but an
17 interesting question between when failure to prevent under 7(3) becomes
18 substantial likelihood under 7(1), and I suppose there will be cases in
19 the future that perhaps will help us draw that line more clearly, but
20 where it is failure to prevent -- the sufficient knew or should have known
21 and failed to prevent, stop and substantial likelihood begin. But as I
22 say, that's I think an interesting intellectual question for future
23 decisions by either this Chamber, the Appeals Chamber, or what have you.
24 It's the Prosecution position, Judge Orie, Your Honours, in this
25 case that there is sufficient factual basis to satisfy the Blaskic
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 standard as to each of the four counts, that is, to each of these counts
2 the level of this accused's knowledge or awareness - awareness is the
3 actual term - was sufficient to put him on notice as to the four crimes
4 charged in this case which are, of course, wilful killing, inhuman
5 treatment, appropriation of property, and the destruction of property.
6 And as to each of those four counts the Prosecution contents, submits,
7 that there would be sufficient basis under the Blaskic standard basis of
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not only talking about the standard. I'm also
10 talking about the findings, the factual findings in the Blaskic case.
11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Because the name of Blaskic appears now and then.
13 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And it could be where he appears -- and, again, I had
15 not yet an opportunity to fully compare. It might contradict the findings
16 so not a standard but contradict the findings, although if it comes to
17 acquittals these findings are usually of a negative character.
18 Is there any such tension between the facts as agreed upon here
19 and the facts established or facts that the Appeals Chamber was not able
20 to establish in the Blaskic case?
21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I better understand your
22 question now.
23 I don't believe that the factual basis -- that anything in the
24 factual basis is fundamentally inconsistent with the -- if you will, the
25 factual findings, if we can call them that, in the Blaskic appeals
1 judgement. You're right, of course, that Mr. Blaskic's name is mentioned
2 several times but it's primarily by way of background and by way of the
3 chain of command, but there's nothing in the facts -- in the factual basis
4 set out here that would clearly, I would say -- I would emphasise the word
5 clearly so contradict something in the Blaskic appeals judgement to be
6 fundamentally inconsistent.
7 I think one might say that there's some information possibly
8 presented here which in some -- has some general bearing or provide some
9 additional insight into what was happening into Central Bosnia during this
10 time. But having said that, I don't think it's of such a nature that it's
11 inconsistent with the findings in the Blaskic case.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that we would not have to pay
13 any -- very specific attention to the factual basis as far as these kinds
14 of facts are concerned.
15 May I ask you, Madam Kosta, whether you would agree with what
16 Mr. Scott just told us.
17 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our position is that
18 these proceedings and all other proceedings should be based on properly
19 established facts. I believe that this Trial Chamber should look deeper
20 into the Blaskic issue regardless of the fact that the Prosecution claims
21 that there are no inconsistencies there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you say the Prosecutor
23 doesn't claim there to be any inconsistencies, but you should look closer
24 to it. Do you have any suggestion, then, that there would be any
25 inconsistencies, and of course we would be greatly assisted if that's the
1 case that you draw our attention to it.
2 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] I believe that at this point the
3 Defence is not ready to point to precise facts, specific facts. However,
4 I have to say that during the Blaskic trial it was precisely my client who
5 through his then attorney expressed a desire to take part in that trial,
6 presumably to testify.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
8 MR. SCOTT: May I?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. SCOTT: I don't want to interrupt counsel but if counsel is
11 finished and if your questions, Your Honour, for Ms. Kosta are finished, I
12 would like to clarify because it is an important question, and I don't
13 want the Trial Chamber to feel in any way misled by the Prosecution, of
15 Blaskic was not charged with any crimes in Stupni Do so that was
16 not part of the appeals judgement, and therefore that is the basic reason
17 why I say there is nothing in the factual basis that is fundamentally at
18 odds with the Blaskic judgement in this particular respect, so there's no
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, could we regard the plea agreement as
22 well as other issues that you made today as an oral application for the
23 amendment of the indictment?
24 MR. SCOTT: I'm not sure what Your Honour means. We don't see it
25 as part of the plea agreement that any part of the indictment needs to be
1 amended. Of course if the Chamber accepts the guilty plea and sentences
2 Mr. Rajic on the four counts, then the Prosecution will indeed move to
3 dismiss the remaining counts, if that's perhaps what Your Honour meant.
4 If not, then I'm in your hands.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the amended indictment shall be
8 filed to the Office of the Registrar as early as possible after this
9 hearing if you want to delete the remaining counts which are not included
10 in the plea agreement.
11 MR. SCOTT: All right, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I'm not -- I'm a
12 little bit -- it was not our intention -- I know in some situations, for
13 example, I know from reading -- I don't think this is a -- just let me
14 consult with counsel.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. SCOTT: Out of abundance of caution, I won't mention the names
17 of accused in other cases. But I think I can say that the Chamber may
18 know that in other cases involving plea agreement, part of the plea
19 agreement has involved an amended indictment being specifically prepared
20 for the purposes of the plea. Additional charges not in an existing
21 indictment have been proposed for the accused then to enter his guilty
22 plea to. That's not the situation in case. So the Prosecution does not
23 anticipate -- of course, if the Chamber so directs, we will consider it
24 and look at it further, but the Prosecution in this case does not
25 anticipate bringing any new amended indictment. Mr. Rajic will be
1 pleading guilty to four counts in the existing indictment and we would
2 propose, Your Honour, at the time of sentencing and when the Chamber
3 ultimately accepts the plea, then of course the Chamber -- excuse me, the
4 Prosecution will move to dismiss the remaining counts, if that would be
5 consistent with Your Honour's direction.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could do that at the time of sentencing
9 when the Chamber ultimately accepts the plea. Then the Prosecution will
10 move to dismiss the remaining counts at a later stage.
11 MR. SCOTT: That's correct, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So shall we proceed to the plea of the
13 counts in the indictment.
14 Mr. Rajic, did you have the opportunity to discuss the contents of
15 the plea agreement with your counsel?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE LIU: Microphone, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I did have
19 opportunity, and I did discuss with my attorney all of the documents
20 mentioned today.
21 JUDGE LIU: Do you understand the meaning of each remaining count?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I understand
24 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to change your plea at this moment? I
25 mean that you pled to not guilty before, and after the plea agreement are
1 you going to change your original plea?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am prepared to amend
3 my previous pleas.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. My suggestion is that I read out each
5 count in the plea agreement, and you may plead guilty or not guilty as the
6 case may be. Are you ready to plead?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Let's start.
9 How do you plead to Count 1, wilful killing, a grave breach of the
10 Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under at Statute Articles 2(a),
11 7(1) and 7(3), guilty or not guilty?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Guilty, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE LIU: Very well.
14 Count 3, inhuman treatment, including sexual assault, a grave
15 breach to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute
16 Articles 2(b), 7(1) and 7(3). How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Guilty.
18 JUDGE LIU: Count 7, appropriation of property, a grave breach of
19 the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Article 2(d),
20 7(1) and 7(3). How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Guilty.
22 JUDGE LIU: Count 9, extensive destruction not justified by
23 military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, a grave breach
24 of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute
25 Article 2(d), 7(1) and 7(3). How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Guilty, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.
3 The Trial Chamber will record a plea of guilty of the four counts
4 by the accused, Mr. Rajic.
5 Well, Mr. Rajic, since you pleaded guilty to the four counts of
6 the amended indictment, I would like to address the accused, Mr. Rajic, at
7 this stage.
8 Mr. Rajic, the Trial Chamber would like to find out from you
9 whether you understand the details of this plea agreement you entered into
10 with the Prosecution.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I was informed
12 about the contents of the documents which were produced together with the
14 JUDGE LIU: I also would like to know that you have entered a
15 guilty plea voluntarily and of out of your free will, which means whether
16 you were threatened or coerced in any way to make this agreement.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I was not
18 threatened. I pleaded guilty because that's what I firmly believe, that
19 indeed I am guilty.
20 JUDGE LIU: The Trial Chamber also would like to know whether your
21 counsel, Madam Kosta, has advised you of the consequences of pleading
22 guilty to the four counts in the amended indictment.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. My counsel has
24 informed me of all potential consequences of pleading guilty to four
25 counts of indictment.
1 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, I have to remind you that when you're
2 entering into the plea agreement, you understand that the Trial Chamber is
3 not bound to accept the range of the sentence agreed upon by yourself and
4 the Prosecutor. Do you understand that?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honours. I
6 hope that the sentence will be a just one, and I do understand that the
7 Trial Chamber is not bound by the sentencing agreement.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that we will have a short break during
10 which the Bench will deliberate on the acceptance of the plea agreement,
11 and we will resume at 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, after the deliberations, we would like to say
15 that the Trial Chamber has considered the particulars of the facts in the
16 plea agreement and is satisfied they do form sufficient factual basis for
17 finding the accused guilty on those counts and, therefore, makes a finding
18 of guilty and enters the conviction for four counts against the accused,
19 Mr. Rajic.
20 The Trial Chamber will now move to the next stage about a possible
21 date for hearings on sentencing.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE LIU: The Trial Chamber will now move to the next stage
24 about a possible date for hearing on sentencing and would like to find out
25 from both parties how they intend to make their submissions on sentencing.
1 Mr. Scott, would you please indicate how much time you think you
3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Your Honours, I think that we could
4 reasonably prepare a sentence, a written sentencing submission, in
5 approximately two to three weeks. I don't think at this point that we
6 anticipate an extensive submission. Certainly I think it will be
7 something that will be helpful to the Chamber, but I don't think it's
8 going to be something that's extremely voluminous. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 I turn to Defence counsel. Madam Kosta, would you please indicate
11 how much time do you need for the preparation of that brief.
12 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] As for the preparation of the Defence
13 brief, I believe that I would need up to three weeks for it.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations with my colleagues, we
17 believe that the 15th of November for filing of the sentencing brief, and
18 the sentence hearing will be sometime at the end of November, maybe on the
19 28th of November.
20 The Trial Chamber will issue orders relating to the further
21 proceedings in due course.
22 Are there any other matters that the parties would like to bring
23 to the attention of this Bench.
24 Mr. Scott.
25 MR. SCOTT: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour. We appreciate
1 the Chamber's attention this afternoon. Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
3 For the Defence, Madam Kosta.
4 MS. KOSTA: [Interpretation] Likewise we have no suggestions.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Mr. Rajic, do you want to say something at this stage?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the conclusion I
8 would like to put in a request. This has to do with the status of my
9 former counsel, Mr. Zeljko Olujic, who I dismissed from the case because
10 he obstructed on purpose the preparation of my defence and as well as my
11 cooperation with the Prosecution in order to establish the truth. In view
12 of the fact that from that date on, from the date when I dismissed
13 Mr. Olujic, he continues to appear as my Defence counsel publicly. This
14 is something that affects adversely my status and my cooperation with this
16 Therefore, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to do something
17 to discontinue sending of any documents to Mr. Olujic, because I'm
18 convinced that these documents end up in the wrong hands, in the hands of
19 the people who are working against me, against justice, and against this
21 That's all I wanted to say, because -- I simply wanted to draw
22 your attention to the fact that he is a common thief and fraudster.
23 That's all I have to say. Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, that is a very serious allegation, Mr. Rajic,
25 but anyway, we will convey your statement to the Registrar. And I found
1 that from the latest filings Mr. Olujic's name does not appear on the
2 documents. I guess that he will no longer get any documents of this case
3 from now on. But anyway, we will draw the attention of the Registrar to
4 this matter. Thank you very much.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE LIU: I believe that's all for this hearing.
7 The hearing is adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the Motion Hearing adjourned
9 at 4.14 p.m.