Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1





5 Tuesday, 2nd April 1996






11 Before:



14 (The Presiding Judge)










24 -v-


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11 behalf of the Prosecution



14 ________________




18 Tuesday,

19 2nd April 1996

20 THE REGISTRAR: We have before us case No. IT-95-12-R61, the Prosecutor v.

21 Ivica Rajic.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Good morning. This is a proceeding

23 being conducted pursuant to Rule 61 of the Rules of Procedure and

24 Evidence of this Tribunal. May I have the appearances, please, for

25 the Prosecutor?

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1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour, I am Eric Ostberg, senior trial attorney;

2 with me I have two counsel, Mr. Gregory Kehoe and Mr. Andrew Cayley.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This morning, as I indicated, it is proceeding

5 pursuant to Rule 61 of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. We will

6 first receive from the Prosecutor the evidence that was presented to

7 Judge Rustam Sidhwa when he initially confirmed the indictment on

8 August 29th 1995. After that we will receive any additional evidence

9 that the Prosecutor wishes to offer today.

10 We will receive the indictment, of course, that Judge Sidhwa had

11 confirmed on August 29th 1995. Further, we will ask the Prosecutor to

12 advise the Trial Chamber what efforts it has made to accomplish service in

13 this matter.

14 After receiving the evidence this morning and perhaps tomorrow

15 afternoon, the Chamber will adjourn and review the evidence and then

16 make a determination as to whether or not reasonable grounds, that

17 is, prima facie evidence, has been offered with respect to the

18 indictment. We expect that we will issue that decision on or about

19 May 2nd. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Cayley, or who will begin

20 first?

21 MR. OSTBERG: I will make the opening statements.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very well. You may proceed, thank you.

23 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we have filed this morning an application, your Honour,

24 requesting that when we arrive to listen to the first witness, we

25 would ask you to grant an order that the names, addresses,

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1 whereabouts and other identifying information concerning persons

2 previously identified by pseudonym, witnesses A, B, C, D, E, F and G,

3 should not be disclosed to the media or to the public; that the

4 names, addresses, whereabouts and other identifying information

5 concerning witnesses A to G should be sealed and not included in any

6 of the Tribunal's public records; that the pseudonym witnesses A to G

7 should be used whenever referring to these witnesses in Tribunal

8 proceedings and that any discussions relative to the issue of

9 protective measures for pseudonym witnesses should be heard in closed

10 sessions.

11 I will go on reading this motion. On 29th August 1995, the

12 indictment against Ivica Rajic

13 was confirmed by Judge Rustam Sidhwa. Subsequently, on March 6th 1996,

14 upon considering an application by the Prosecutor, Judge Sidhwa ordered

15 pursuant to Rule 61A that the indictment against Ivica Rajic be submitted

16 to the Trial Chamber for proceedings commencing on this day, today. They

17 were rescheduled to 1st April and then scheduled to the

18 date of today.

19 After confirmation of the indictment, statements were taken from

20 survivors of the attack on Stupni Do by Tribunal investigators. At

21 the time their statements were taken those witnesses agreed to

22 testify before the Tribunal. However, for purposes of the

23 proceedings, the Tribunal's investigator who recorded their

24 statements will give oral testimony as to their evidence. It has not

25 been possible to consult with the witness A to witness G prior to

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1 these proceedings and there are serious concerns which exist in

2 relation

3 to their security.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I received that motion this morning and I have

5 reviewed it and conferred with my fellow judges and we have granted

6 that motion.

7 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. Then, your Honour, I will proceed with my

8 opening statements.


10 MR. OSTBERG: The indictment we submit to the Trial Chamber today deals

11 with the attack by Bosnia Croat soldiers belonging to the Croatian

12 Defence Council, which I will refer to as the HVO, on the Muslim

13 inhabited village of Stupni Do in central Bosnia. A map, your

14 Honour, of central Bosnia will be on the screens before all of you in

15 the courtroom. Sometimes when I refer to places, they can be

16 identified and they will be put up before you so you can see with a

17 little arrow exactly what I am talking about.

18 For this attack Ivica Rajic, then the Commander of the HVO

19 forces in Vares, approximately four kilometres north west of Stupni Do, is

20 charged under Article 7(1) in three separate counts, firstly and secondly,

21 with Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions, punishable under Article

22 2(a) and (d) of the Statute as wilful killing and destruction of property;

23 thirdly, with violations of the Laws or Customs of War, punishable under

24 Article 3 of the Statute as a deliberate attack on the civilian population

25 and wanton destruction of the village.

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1 Alternatively to each count, Ivica Rajic is charged under

2 Article 7 paragraph 3 of the Statute with failure, in his superior

3 authority, to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the

4 attacks and to punish the perpetrators of it.

5 To put this attack in an understandable context, I will start

6 with giving a short overview of the political and military circumstances

7 in which the attack took place. These circumstances are in more detail

8 set out in the brief I submitted to the Trial Chamber yesterday.

9 It is, of course, impossible in the context of an opening

10 statement in a Rule 61 Hearing to give a full and detailed background to

11 the fact that an armed conflict erupted between the Bosnian Croat and the

12 Muslims in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993. In more

13 detail again this will be set out in our brief. Some outlining facts,

14 however, might serve the purpose of facilitating the understanding.

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina declared itself independent on 6th March

16 1992. On April 6th 1992, the European Community recognised Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina and the following day it was recognised by the United States

18 and by Croatia. Croatia immediately offered all Bosnian Croats dual

19 citizenship with Croatia.

20 However, prior to the secession of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

21 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on 18th November 1991, a Croatian

22 community in Bosnia-Herzegovina was established. They called themselves

23 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, thereby emphasising the

24 Herzegovine region which has throughout history been the centre of

25 Croatian nationalism in Bosnia.

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1 In the declaration establishing the Croatian Community in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, specific municipalities in Bosnia were designated as

3 falling within the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, amongst them is

4 Vares, the municipality in which Stupni Do is located. Although

5 predominantly Croatian, this area incorporated towns and villages where

6 Muslims formed a majority.

7 When the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, the

8 Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims were united in defending Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina against aggression coming from Bosnian Serbs and from the

10 National Yugoslavian Army. They even entered a formal military alliance

11 against the Serbian and Yugoslav forces. However, as early as May 1992

12 there

13 were tensions between the Bosnian Croats and the Muslims in that alliance,

14 when the Yugoslavian National Army was officially pulling out of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina, which happened in May 1992. They were starting to

16 quarrel over the question of who would get the arms and the munitions that

17 this Army had left behind it.

18 Signs of conflict could also be seen later in 1992 on questions

19 relating to arms. When the Vance-Owen plan, which attributed certain

20 areas to respective parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was announced the

21 conflict between the former allies escalated. An April 16th 1993, HVO

22 forces attacked the predominantly Muslim village of Ahmici, also in

23 Central Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina and summarily executed scores of unarmed civilians and

25 destroyed the Muslim homes. That attack has resulted in another

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1 indictment at this Tribunal.

2 On May 9th 1993, the HVO started an attack in Mostar, that had

3 been made the capital of the self-declared Croation Community of

4 Herceg-Bosna, where thousands of Muslims, men, women and children were

5 arbitrarily arrested by the HVO.

6 The next remarkable event in the armed conflict between the two

7 parties is the attack on Stupni Do, resulting in the indictment which we

8 submit today under Rule 61 of our Statute.

9 Let us now have a look on the maps before you. Stupni Do is

10 located in the municipality of Vares, some four kilometres southeast

11 of the city of Vares.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: One moment, Mr. Ostberg. I am having difficulty

13 pulling the map

14 up, and also has that been marked as an exhibit so that for the

15 record we will know what map you are referring to?

16 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, we would formally submit it as an exhibit when

17 we come to one of the witnesses who will tell where he got the map,

18 what kind of map it is, etc. Now I just refer to them as assistance

19 to my oral presentation of the case, if that is OK with you? Thank

20 you, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has it been given a number at this time?

22 MR. OSTBERG: It has been given No. 1, I think. The first map of Croatia

23 has the number Exhibit No. 1. Is that so, Mr. Cayley? 2, and the one

24 before you right now is No. 3.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So even though it is a part of your opening

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1 statement, as you refer to the maps, if you can just indicate the

2 number that you have assigned to it for identification purposes, at

3 least?



6 MR. OSTBERG: This is No. 3.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Stupni Do is?

8 MR. OSTBERG: Stupni Do, as you can see on that map, is located in the

9 municipality of Vares. You have no trouble to see it?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is all right, thank you.

11 MR. OSTBERG: Some four kilometres southeast of the city of Vares. It

12 was a small town -- I

13 use the past tense because, as you will see from the photos we are

14 going to present, it is totally devastated and no longer inhabitable

15 -- it was a city or village of about 250 people living in some 60

16 houses. The population consisted mostly of workers having some farm

17 land and cattle. The inhabitants regarded themselves as a part of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Stupni Do was a typical country village.

19 There were no military installations whatsoever. It is situated

20 somewhat off the main road and several witnesses who were senior army

21 officers of the UNPROFOR -- that is the United Nations protection

22 forces -- have stated that it was of no military interest to any of

23 the parties.

24 In October 1993 the HVO controlled the municipality of Vares and

25 had the military authority in the area through the Bobovac Brigade, with

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1 headquarters based three kilometres north east of Vares near Ponikva. Can

2 we also see Ponikva? In October 1993 the Bobovac Brigade came under the

3 command of the Second Operational Group of the HVO, based in Kiseljak

4 approximately 30 kilometres southeast of Vares. The commander of that

5 group in October 1993 was Ivica Rajic, known to previously have been a

6 first class captain of the Yugoslavian Army. On or about 21st October

7 1993, Rajic came to Vares with a large number of troops from the Kiseljak

8 area. The Brigade Commander was removed and Rajic took military control

9 of Vares and the Bobovac Brigade.

10 We will bring two witnesses to the fact that Rajic was the

11 commander, namely, Brigadier-General Ulf Henricsson, Commanding Officer of

12 Nordic Battalion of the United Nations Protection Force, and his

13 interpreter and Assistant, Ruzdi Ekenheim, who will tell you

14 that Rajic acted and represented himself as the officer in command of the

15 HVO in Vares and Stupni Do and specifically as the Brigade Commander.

16 Lieutenant Colonel Jan Koet, a Dutch Legal Officer of the

17 UNPROFOR, will tell you that

18 it was later confirmed by the HVO that Rajic was the commander responsible

19 for troops attacking Stupni Do.

20 Under the command of Ivica Rajic, there were approximately 200

21 HVO soldiers. At about 8 o'clock in the morning of October 23rd 1993,

22 these soldiers attacked the village with unspecified fire and then entered

23 the village, went from house to house, took money and possessions, killed

24 or forced inhabitants to flee and set the houses on fire.

25 One of our investigators, Ehsan Bajwa, which will be our first

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1 witness today, will summarise the statements of victims and eyewitnesses.

2 The British Navy photographer, Bernard Pettersen, then serving with the

3 UNPROFOR, will show you pictures taken by him in the village after the

4 attack. All this will show that what happened to Stupni Do was an illegal

5 attack on the civilian population of the village with the sole purpose to

6 terrorise, kill and drive away the Muslim population.

7 These are the facts I present in my opening statement. I will

8 now turn to some legal questions of applicable law pertaining to this

9 indictment.

10 Ivica Rajic is charged with responsibility for committing Grave

11 Breaches of the Geneva Conventions contrary to Article 2 of the Statute,

12 and with responsibility for a deliberate attack on the civilian population

13 and wanton destruction of the village of Stupni Do contrary to Article 3

14 of the Statute.

15 The Appeals Chamber of this Tribunal has held in its decision

16 on Defence Motion for the Interlocutory Appeal on Jurisdiction in the case

17 of Prosecutor v. Tadic, I quote, that "Article 2 of the Statute only

18 applies to offences committed within the context of international armed

19 conflicts".

20 With reference to counts I, II, IV and V, it is the submission

21 of the Prosecution that in October 1993 an international armed conflict

22 existed between Bosnia and Croatia, that HVO forces under the command of

23 Ivica Rajic were under the control of Croatia in this conflict to such an

24 extent that they must be regarded as agents and, in the words of the

25 Appeals Chamber's decision, paragraph 76, "acting not as a rebellious

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1 entity but as organs or agents of another State".

2 The Prosecution also submits that the persons and property in

3 the village of Stupni Do were protected within the meaning of the Fourth

4 Geneva Convention on the protection of civilians, vis-a-vis Croatia

5 controlled forces.

6 The fourth Geneva Convention applies during any international

7 armed conflict between two or more of the High Contracting Parties. Both

8 Bosnia and Croatia were parties to all of the Geneva Conventions and they

9 were engaged in an armed conflict with each other when the attack on

10 Stupni Do occurred. Croatia acceded to the four Geneva Conventions and the

11 Two Additional Protocols on May 11th 1992 and Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 acceded to the four Geneva Conventions and the same Two Additional

13 Protocols on 31st December 1992.

14 Protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention are, and I

15 quote from Article 4: "Those who, at a given moment and in any manner

16 whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the

17 hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they

18 are not nationals".

19 Real or personal property is protected from destruction in

20 occupied territory except where such destruction is rendered absolutely

21 necessary by military operations. Under Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva

22 Convention, Grave Breaches include wilful killing of protected persons and

23 the extensive destruction of property, not justified by military necessity

24 and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.

25 It is the submission of prosecution that, once Stupni Do was

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1 overrun by HVO forces under the command of Ivica Rajic, Stupni Do became

2 occupied territory and Croatia became the occupying power. The

3 inhabitants of Stupni Do were Bosnian nationals and the real and personal

4 property of Stupni Do was Bosnian property. The fact that Ivica Rajic and

5 the HVO forces under his command might also be regarded as Bosnian

6 nationals is legally irrelevant because the degree of control exercised by

7 Croatia over the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and

8 the HVO was so great that this entity must be regarded as agents or

9 extensions of Croatia. The killings of civilians and the destruction of

10 property which occurred in Stupni Do once the village was overrun

11 constitute, therefore, Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions.

12 With reference to counts II, III, V and VI, it is the submission

13 of the Prosecutor that the alleged attack against the civilian population

14 and wanton destruction of the village of Stupni Do

15 are prohibited under international customary and conventional law, in both

16 international and internal conflicts. These counts refer to acts which

17 occurred during the attack. In the Decision on Jurisdiction, the Appeals

18 Chamber held, in paragraph 127 that with respect to all armed conflicts,

19 customary law "covers such areas as protection of civilian objects, in

20 particular from indiscriminate attacks, protection of civilian objects, in

21 particular cultural property, protection of all those who do not (or no

22 longer) take active part in hostilities, as well as prohibition of means

23 of warfare conducting hostilities".

24 The arguments on applicable law are set out more fully in the same

25 brief submitted to the Trial Chamber yesterday. Your Honour, with

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1 these observations I conclude my opening statement. Thank you.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything else, Mr. Cayley? Are you ready to

3 proceed, Mr. Ostberg? Who will offer the evidence?

4 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we are ready to proceed. We just change places.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In your opening statement you really did not address

6 the nature of a Rule 61 proceeding. There have been three Rule 61

7 proceedings conducted by the Tribunal.


9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I suppose it should be made clear that this does not

10 result in an adjudication of guilt or innocence. What this is is an

11 opportunity for the Prosecutor to present in open court the

12 indictment, as I indicated, that was confirmed by Judge Sidhwa as

13 well as offer additional evidence and, particularly, the testimony of

14 witnesses. At the conclusion of the receipt of that evidence, then

15 it is the responsibility of the judges to make a determination as to

16 whether or not there are reasonable grounds to support the charges

17 that have been made in the indictment against the accused.

18 If, however, the Chamber finds that there are reasonable

19 grounds, that does not mean that there is an adjudication of guilt. The

20 accused has been indicted and, of course, should he choose to surrender

21 to the Tribunal, then he would be entitled to a trial and the trial would

22 be conducted in his presence. So this is not a trial in absentia; it is

23 merely an opportunity for the Prosecutor to present this evidence. If the

24 Tribunal or if the Trial Chamber makes a determination that there are

25 reasonable grounds, that is, a prime facie case has been established, then

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1 the Trial Chamber may issue an international arrest warrant for the arrest

2 of the accused. If the Chamber finds that the failure to execute the

3 arrest warrant is because of a lack of co-operation on the part of the

4 State to whom the arrest warrant was directed, then the Trial Chamber may

5 ask the President of the Tribunal to advise the Security Council of this

6 lack of co-operation.

7 So I really wanted to put the proceedings in context and make it

8 very clear what we are doing today.

9 MR. OSTBERG: We are in total agreement, your Honour. But I think I would

10 take the advantage of this opportunity to say now that we are not

11 invoking paragraph (E) of the Rule 61 which tells us: "If the

12 Prosecutor satisfies the Trial Chamber that the failure to effect

13 personal service was due in whole or in part to a failure or refusal

14 of a State to co-operate with the Tribunal in accordance", etc., the

15 Trial Chamber can, as your Honour pointed out, ask the President to

16 notify the Security Council.

17 We are not in the position to satisfy ourselves or your Honours

18 that this was a failure of any special state or any special entity,

19 because we believe that there are political and practical, military

20 or other circumstances who can have made it impossible to execute the

21 warrants. Therefore, I am not trying, in this case, to satisfy the

22 Trial

23 Chamber that it was the failure of any specific State.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was the arrest warrant sent to Croatia with a

25 request that it be executed?

Page 16


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I recall, from my review of the file, it was.

3 MR. OSTBERG: To Croatia and to the Federation ---


5 MR. OSTBERG: -- but we know all what the factual situation looks like --

6 we do not know for certain where Rajic is for the moment. So we

7 cannot say was he there at that moment

8 or there at this moment and whose responsibility was it at certain

9 times to take actions against him. So, therefore, I have abstained

10 from trying to satisfy you in this respect, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.

12 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, your Honours, may we proceed

13 with the oral testimony?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, you may proceed. I thought that your first

15 witness was the subject of protective measures or am I incorrect

16 about that?

17 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: In fact, that has been decided against. Now he

18 is perfectly happy to appear without any protective measures at all.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Yes, you may proceed. Thank you.

20 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend Mr. Ostberg referred in his

21 opening to witnesses that the Prosecution will be calling in order to

22 satisfy the standard of prima facie case under Rule 47 of the rules

23 of procedure. In that respect, the Prosecution is, in essence,

24 calling a snapshot of the evidence that will be called at trial in

25 order to, in fact, satisfy the burden to which you, Madam President,

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1 have already referred.

2 Some of the witness statements relating to that oral testimony

3 were contained in the original bundle of evidence that was submitted to

4 Mr. Justice Sidhwa for confirmation of this matter on 29th August and the

5 other evidence is contained in the additional bundle which was filed with

6 the court on March 19th.

7 I understand that those two bundles are to be resubmitted to the

8 court as Exhibits 19 and 20 by the Registry.

9 The first witness -----

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that 19, I gather, will be the first -----

11 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: 19, your Honour, will be the original bundle of

12 evidence submitted to Mr. Justice Sidhwa and 20 will be the second

13 bundle of evidence submitted. The first witness is Mr. Ehsan Bajwa,

14 a Tribunal investigator, who has taken seven statements from

15 eyewitness survivors from Stupni Do. As has already been agreed in

16 the order that you signed this morning, the witnesses themselves will

17 be referred to as witnesses "A" to "G", although your Honours will

18 find their actual statements in the evidence submitted to you on 29th

19 March. If it is of assistance to you, those witnesses can be found

20 in the paginated bundle from 415 to 495. If, with the court's leave,

21 I could call Mr. Bajwa?

22 MR. EHSAN BAJWA, called.

23 JUDGE SIDHWA: May I make an enquiry, in the first bundle of witnesses,

24 the statements of how many witnesses stand recorded in the first

25 bundle of witnesses which were submitted

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1 to me?

2 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: I just need to look at the bundle, your Honour.

3 JUDGE SIDHWA: Please refer to the relevant page in the file.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Of all of the witnesses?

5 JUDGE SIDHWA: Yes, of all the witnesses when the case first came to me.

6 By that time, how many witness statements of how many witnesses had

7 you recorded in all?

8 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: If you go to page 187 of the original bundle, you

9 will see there a list. I think, indeed, there were eight statements

10 recorded by the Tribunal investigators that were submitted with that,

11 although there were, indeed, I think as you remember, your Honour,

12 certain summaries of evidence by the United Nations protection force.

13 JUDGE SIDHWA: Page 187, how many witnesses do you mention, eight?

14 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Eight. If I can go through the list?

15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Yes, go through the list.

16 MR. CAYLEY: Footnote (7), your Honour, witness statement of Angus Ramsey.

17 JUDGE SIDHWA: Angus Ramsey is one, yes. Next one?

18 MR. CAYLEY: 10 is witness statement Bisnian Mantovic(?). Then if you

19 turn the page, 16B -----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that the Motion that you filed has asked

21 that we refer to some witnesses by their initials; is that not so?

22 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: By pseudonyms A to G.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what I mean. I am sorry.

24 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: That is in the second bundle of evidence.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But there are some statements in the first bundle

Page 19

1 that have the actual name; is that not so?

2 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, but I understand that the

3 exhibits are to be submitted under seal ---

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is true.

5 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: -- to the court.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you do not want to mention the name of the

7 person, do you?

8 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: No, no, we do not; we will be mentioning them by

9 a pseudonym.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Make sure then that as you read from this page 187

11 you do not mention the name by name of any witness ---

12 MR. CAYLEY: My apologies.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- who is going to be, who has been given a

14 pseudonym.

15 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Yes, I understand.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If there has been any previous reference, that

17 should be stricken from the record.

18 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: There will be no reference to these witnesses.


20 JUDGE SIDHWA: Tell me, in the Application for Motion which you made for

21 keeping secret the identities of certain witnesses, some of the

22 witnesses of the first bundle are also included in that?

23 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Yes, there is. In fact, if you go, your Honour,

24 to -----

25 JUDGE SIDHWA: Just mention the item numbers then without their names.

Page 20

1 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY: Footnote (10), but indeed that particular

2 statement will not be referred to in Mr. Bajwa's oral testimony.

3 JUDGE SIDHWA: You refer to the itemised number and then do not mention

4 the name; you can say "A" or "B" or just tell us, and then we will

5 make a note of it. You first mentioned

6 No. 7; is he a protected witness?

7 MR. CAYLEY: No, he is not a protected witness.

8 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right, then you come to No. 10.

9 MR. CAYLEY: He is a protected witness.

10 JUDGE SIDHWA: He is a protected witness. Then the next one, Slobodan

11 Tomasic(?) or something, he is one?

12 MR. CAYLEY: No, that is not a protected witness.

13 JUDGE SIDHWA: No, no, is he a witness?

14 MR. CAYLEY: He is not a witness, no.

15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Not a witness, all right. Which is the next one then?

16 MR. CAYLEY: The next witness is 16B, Mr. Hakan Birger.

17 JUDGE SIDHWA: Is he protected?

18 MR. CAYLEY: He is not protected.

19 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right, and which is the next one, No. 19?

20 MR. CAYLEY: No. 19 is not protected.

21 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right No. 20.

22 MR. CAYLEY: No. 20 is not protected.

23 JUDGE SIDHWA: What about 25, is there something?

24 MR. CAYLEY: No. 25 is not protected.

25 JUDGE SIDHWA: He is a witness?

Page 21

1 MR. CAYLEY: No, not in this case, not called before the court today, no.

2 JUDGE SIDHWA: Not a witness. Then which one next?

3 MR. CAYLEY: 29B not protected.

4 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right. Then 31?

5 MR. CAYLEY: 31 not protected.


7 MR. CAYLEY: Not protected.

8 JUDGE SIDHWA: What else? 38?

9 MR. CAYLEY: 38 is the next statement, again not protected. Then the last

10 one is 44 and again not protected.

11 JUDGE SIDHWA: So you only have one protected witness here?

12 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry.

13 JUDGE SIDHWA: In this list there is only one protected witness?

14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, that is correct, your Honour.

15 JUDGE SIDHWA: Now please tell me how many are there in all -- 10. There

16 are 10; one of them is protected, am I correct?

17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, that is correct, your Honour.

18 JUDGE SIDHWA: That is in the first bundle?

19 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct.

20 JUDGE SIDHWA: These other names which you mention here ---

21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.

22 JUDGE SIDHWA: -- they are not to be treated as witnesses or what are they

23 -- in this list?

24 MR. CAYLEY: In the first bundle?

25 JUDGE SIDHWA: Interviews with so and so -----

Page 22

1 MR. CAYLEY: That is simply written evidence, your Honour, that is being

2 submitted. May I proceed with the witness, your Honours?

3 JUDGE SIDHWA: The second bundle is page 497 where we have camouflaged

4 their identity and refer to as A, B, C, D, E, F and G?

5 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, your Honour, yes.

6 JUDGE SIDHWA: All right. Page 497, thank you.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed, Mr. Cayley, thank you.

8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

10 truth and nothing but

11 the truth.

12 (The witness was sworn)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, you may be seated.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Examined by MR. CAYLEY

15 MR. CAYLEY: You are Mr. Ehsan Bajwa; is that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. I think it is correct, is it not, that you are a superintendent in

18 the Police Force in Pakistan; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think you have now been a senior Police Officer in Pakistan for a

21 period of seven years; is

22 that correct?

23 A. That is true.

24 Q. I think you were very kindly given a leave of absence in September

25 '95 by your Police Force so that you could serve as an investigator

Page 23

1 with this Tribunal; is that correct?

2 A. That is true.

3 Q. I think since your arrival at the Tribunal you have spent a number

4 of months in Bosnia-Herzegovina taking statements from Bosnian

5 nationals; is that correct?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. I think you have been particularly concerned with interviewing a

8 number of survivors from the attack on the village of Stupni Do; is

9 that correct?

10 A. That is true.

11 Q. I think you conducted in all seven statements; is that correct? You

12 conducted seven interviews with witnesses; is that correct?

13 A. Apart from these seven statements, there are some other statements,

14 but in so far as the ocular account of what happened, these are the

15 seven statements.

16 Q. I think in each case the interview that you conducted with this

17 witness was conducted through a certified interpreter who is fluent

18 in both English and Bosnian; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think you addressed your questions to the witness in English?

21 A. That is true.

22 Q. I think the interpreter then interpreted your request to the witness

23 into Bosnian; is that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. Then I think that the response of the witness was given, of course,

Page 24

1 back by the witness to you in Bosnian; is that correct?

2 A. That is true.

3 Q. I think then the interpreter interpreted that response for your

4 benefit into English; is that correct?

5 A. That is true.

6 Q. I think, indeed, it is correct that you made a written record of the

7 witness's interpreted response; is that correct?

8 A. That is true.

9 Q. Then I think is it true that the entire English record of that

10 statement was read back to the witness in Bosnian; is that correct?

11 A. That is true.

12 Q. Then I think that any matter with which the witness disagreed or was

13 uncertain was, in fact, corrected by you; is that correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. Then I think only when the witness was fully satisfied with the

16 statement did he or she sign

17 it?

18 A. That is true.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bajwa. If I could produce Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit 1, if this could be handed to the witness, please? (Handed)

21 Could you just not open it for a moment, Mr. Bajwa? There are a

22 couple of questions I would like to ask you first. I think on 18th

23 March 1996 you interviewed witness A; is that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. I think you requested of witness A what his function was in the

Page 25

1 village of Stupni Do. Can you tell the court what he said to you?

2 A. The witness described himself as the President of the local

3 community of Stupni Do and, by virtue of that position in the

4 community of Stupni Do, he recalled that he was responsible for

5 co-ordinating with the municipal authorities of Vares in such public

6 affairs

7 and matters as roads in the village and telephones in the village,

8 electricity in the village, educational facilities and health

9 facilities. So he was a man who was actively involved with the

10 public affairs at the local level.

11 Q. Thank you. I think you showed that witness a photograph, did you

12 not?

13 A. That is true.

14 Q. I think is that the photograph that is in front of you at the

15 moment?

16 A. That is what it is.

17 Q. That will become Prosecutor's Exhibit 1. We tender that in

18 evidence, please.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that going to appear on our monitor?

20 MR. CAYLEY: Portions of it, your Honour, are going to appear; the entire

21 photograph will not. Mr. Bajwa will refer to the photographic copy

22 next to him and, indeed, a more focused image of that map, of that

23 photograph, will come up in front of you. I think it will become

24 quite clear to you as his testimony unfolds.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So this was a photograph which he used when he was

Page 26

1 questioning witness A?

2 MR. CAYLEY: Exactly, yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you know where this photograph came from? Who

4 took it?

5 MR. CAYLEY: It is, in fact, an aerial photographer. In fact, I will ask

6 the witness. (To the witness): Do you know where this photograph

7 came from?

8 A. My impression of the photograph is that it is an aerial photograph

9 of the village of Stupni Do and, indeed, it was recognised as such by

10 witness A, and in so far as this is the sour of the aerial photograph

11 is concerned, my impression it was lent by a friendly government.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecutor's Exhibit 1 then will be admitted.

13 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. (To the witness): I think the witness assisted

14 you, did he not, by identifying buildings, topographical features and

15 cultural sites within the village from this

16 aerial photograph; is that correct?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. I think that, indeed, you and he together marked those features on

19 this aerial photograph with yellow markers; is that correct?

20 A. That is true, yellow stickers, paper stickers.

21 Q. Thank you. I think he then made a statement identifying each of

22 those marked features; is

23 that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. So the statement is, as it were, a key to the aerial photograph?

Page 27

1 A. Yes, a statement -- all these marks on the photograph are to be read

2 in conjunction with the statement for understanding the significance.

3 Q. If you could in the course of your evidence, Mr. Bajwa, when you are

4 referring to a particular witness whose place of residence has been

5 identified on that photograph, if you could refer to it on the

6 photograph and, indeed, so that the judges can understand from the

7 screens in front of them exactly the area of the village that you are

8 talking about, I would be grateful. Then you.

9 If we could now, please, move to Witness B. I will lead you

10 through a lot of your evidence, but there are some responses where I

11 would like you to respond as you heard it from the witness when you

12 took this statement. Do you understand?

13 A. I understand, yes.

14 Q. Witness B, I believe, was a woman who had lived in Stupni Do for

15 almost 20 years prior to the attack; is that correct?

16 A. That is true, 20 years of her married life.

17 Q. I think she, indeed, had a husband and two children; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think she told you, did she not, that there were approximately 60

21 houses in the village, and that prior to the breakdown of the former

22 Yugoslavia Stupni Do had to a degree been an ethnically mixed

23 village; is that correct? If you would explain that in some detail?

24 A. Yes, ethnically mixed to the extent witness recorded that there were

25 about 10 Serb houses in the village, and she had recorded there was

Page 28

1 no Croat house in the village of Stupni Do as such, except for the

2 fact that there was one woman, a Croat woman, whether was married to

3 a Muslim man in the village, so it was just one mixed family, mixed

4 Croat Muslim family, and apart from that fact there were about 10

5 Serb houses in the village.

6 Q. I think Witness B lived in a hamlet, a smaller area of the village,

7 which was called Pricado;

8 is that correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. Could you identify that on the map in front of you and also on the

11 television screen in front

12 of you?

13 A. Well, I do not have the image here, but on this photograph it is the

14 area which is marked as

15 "A", and that is a hamlet of the whole village of Stupni Do which is

16 at a point which is higher compared with the other portion of the

17 village. So, it was relatively higher portion of the village which

18 was referred to by the residents of Stupni Do as Pricado.

19 Q. I think your Honours you, indeed, have that portion of the aerial

20 photograph on the screens in front of you?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we have, thank you.

22 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): Could you say which number her

23 house was on this aerial photograph, the house in which she resided

24 at the time of the attack?

25 A. Yes. It was No. 5. It is No. 5 here. It was a comparatively

Page 29

1 bigger building in the hamlet.

2 Q. I think the witness explained to you, did she not, that the HVO

3 authorities in Vares gradually began to exert more and more pressure

4 on the village of Stupni Do after they, in

5 fact, ceased power in the town in June 1992. I wondered if you could

6 briefly tell a little bit about what she said to you to the court?

7 A. Witness B recalled that women from Muslim villages like Stupni Do

8 and Strijezevo -- and these are the villages which were within the

9 municipality of Vares, but which were situated at a certain distance

10 from the town of Vares -- those women would go to town to sell their

11 country merchandise, like cheese, butter, eggs, vegetables, and the

12 fact that they were of Muslim ethnicity could be determined by what

13 they were wearing. They could be marked for that. She recalled that

14 the name of the dress was "dimija". She explained that "demija" is

15 like a skirt which comes down, close down, up to the feet and it is a

16 baggy dress. So, whenever there was a Muslim woman from a certain

17 Muslim village, it could easily be detected that she is of Muslim

18 ethnicity.

19 She recalled that such women were harassed while they were on

20 their tours to the town to sell or to buy things, and Croats, there

21 were frequent incidents of them being intimidated, they being told

22 not to come to the town and if they had to come at all they should

23 not be wearing dimijas. That was one aspect of the harassment that

24 she spoke of.

25 Q. I think she also told you, in fact, about a kidnapping that occurred

Page 30

1 just shortly before the attack on Stupni Do; I wonder if you could

2 tell the court about that?

3 A. Yes, that is as far as the women were concerned, but in so far as

4 men were concerned, the witness recalled that lots of times there

5 were events when men would be taken to a certain building in the town

6 of Vares. They will be asked what their names are. Those names will

7 be taken down. Some of them would be held in detention for a certain

8 number of days and then, after being robbed of whatever possessions

9 they had, they would be let off. At other times, they would be

10 indefinitely detained.

11 She exactly and specifically recalled one such incident about a

12 week before the actual attack that took place on 23rd October 1993.

13 In that incident she recalled that six men, and she was very specific

14 about their names as well, those six men were travelling on a certain

15 unbeaten, far flung country road because they wanted to avoid being

16 arrested, but still they could not avoid it. They were intercepted

17 and they were arrested. They could not escape unless -- the

18 municipality of Vares was taken by the Bosnian Army in November and

19 it is only after the take-over by Bosnian Army that they were able to

20 escape.

21 Q. So let me get this clear; eight days prior to the attack on Stupni

22 Do, a group of men from the village were, as it were, arrested and

23 taken away whilst travelling from Stupni Do to another village

24 nearby; is that correct?

25 A. They were travelling towards Stupni Do from a neighbouring village,

Page 31

1 and she recalled the name of the village they were travelling from to

2 Stupni Do was Budozelj.

3 Q. Indeed, these same men were not released until sometime after the

4 attack on Stupni Do?

5 A. That is true, and they had their tales of beatings and tortures to

6 tell.

7 Q. Thank you. I think this witness said something to you about the

8 village guard force in Stupni Do. I wondered if you could tell the

9 court a little bit about that?

10 A. The witness recalled that there were about 20 men who composed the

11 local village guard, and she said that none of those men was from

12 outside the village of Stupni Do. All of them were native residents

13 of the village of Stupni Do. Then she recalled that not all of them

14 had uniforms and even those who did not have full uniforms.

15 Q. So these men were not, in fact, regular members of the Bosnian Army?

16 A. She did not put it that way, but she said that they were just local

17 guards.

18 Q. I understand. If we can actually now move forward to the attack

19 itself. At what time and date did the witness say that the attack

20 took place?

21 A. Yes, the witness recalled that it was on 23rd October 1993 at about

22 10 minutes past 8 with the explosion of a shell the attack started.

23 Q. What did the witness do when the attack started?

24 A. The witness recalled that the witness -----

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was that a.m. or p.m.?

Page 32

1 MR. CAYLEY: That is a.m., your Honour.

2 THE WITNESS: The Witness B recalled that they were a family of four in

3 their house, No. 5, in the hamlet of Pricado, and this family of four

4 consisted of witness herself, her husband,

5 her 17 year old daughter and 15 year old son. She recalled that that

6 morning, that Saturday morning, on 23rd October, she was taking

7 breakfast with her son and with her daughter, and there was the

8 sudden explosion of a shell. Hearing that explosion, she rushed to

9 the door of the house to see what was happening outside, and she

10 recalled that it was as if the explosion of the shell announced a

11 certain kind of a start, because it was immediately followed with

12 intense firing and, as she was out of her house, she saw that bullets

13 were coming from all sides, from all the different directions.

14 Then she recalled that when she was out of her house she saw

15 this boy who was about 12 years of age, she knew him to be from the

16 village, and he was standing nearby her house tending his cows and

17 standing by the cows. The boy was crying and she asked him to come

18 over and to rush for his life. The boy said that, "What am I going

19 to do with my cows?" She told him just to rush and forget about

20 cows. So, the boy came over and with the arrival of the boy in

21 Witness B's house, the number of people in the house became five, two

22 children of the witness and her husband and with this boy.

23 Q. And the small boy. I think these five people, the family of Witness

24 B and this small boy, waited in the bathroom of the house, they took

25 shelter in their bathroom; is that correct?

Page 33

1 A. The witness recalled that by the time she came back the windows and

2 the glass panes in the windows were all broken because bullets had

3 struck them. She did not know where to go. So she went to the

4 bathroom with all her family.

5 Q. I think at that stage they were, in fact, joined by others, is that

6 correct, or in fact they went and joined others because the house in

7 which they lived was occupied by two families; is that correct?

8 Could you explain that to the court?

9 A. Yes. It was actually a bigger building, and the witness recalled

10 that the building housed two families and the neighbouring family

11 consisted of three people at that time at the start

12 of the attack. Presently, after spending about an hour inside the

13 bathroom, they went to the neighbouring family and both of them

14 decided that they should go to a shelter.

15 Q. I think, indeed, it is true, is it not, that this group of eight

16 people decided that they would go to a sturdier shelter in another

17 part of the village. In fact, I think they went to Witness

18 A's house; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. Could you tell the court which number marked on the aerial

21 photograph is Witness A's house?

22 A. Yes. It is No. 1.

23 Q. So No. 1, your Honours, on the screens in front of you indicates the

24 house to which this group of eight people fled just after the

25 beginning of the attack.

Page 34

1 (To the witness): The next part of the witness's testimony is

2 very important, so I would like you to tell it to the court in the

3 words which the witness used to you because I understand at this

4 stage all of these people were, in fact, hiding in the basement of

5 witness

6 A's house; is that correct?

7 A. That is true.

8 Q. So, if you would tell the court in your own words what happened

9 next?

10 A. The witness recalled that when they reached the shelter in the

11 basement of witness A's house, she found that there were already 10

12 people who were sheltered in that basement, which of course included

13 witness A's family also. Together with those 10 people and these

14 eight people from house five, they became 18 totally in the numbers.

15 Amongst these 18 people there were three men and five women and the

16 rest were children.

17 So she recalled that the firing continued and after a certain

18 length of time her husband said: "I will go out and see what is happening

19 outside". So the husband went out with another man and came back, and all

20 of these 18 people were hiding in a back room in the basement. She

21 remembered that she heard her husband speaking to the other men and saying

22 that the defences of village have fallen and they are almost on the verge

23 of entering the village.

24 Then she recalled that everybody wanted to flee the basement in

25 which they were hiding, but only three of them were able to escape and the

Page 35

1 rest were left behind, which means about the number of people that were

2 left behind were 15 in the shelter. Three were able to escape immediately

3 before the arrival of the attacking soldiers in this specific building in

4 the basement.

5 Then she recalled that when those three people had escaped, she

6 with everybody else, she

7 heard sound of footsteps on the stairs that went up to the upper floor of

8 the same building in whose basement they were hiding. Then she recalled

9 that those same sounds, the stomp of boots, started coming from the

10 ceiling and then she recalled that there was lots of sounds of firing from

11 the upper floor, and it was as if all the windows are being broken and

12 everything is being thrown around.

13 Then presently she recalled a certain girl who also lived in the

14 same neighbourhood, and who she thought might have been discovered hiding

15 somewhere, hidden somewhere, by the attacking troops. She remembered that

16 while hidden in that basement she heard the voice of that neighbouring

17 girl who was 17 years of age approximately at that time. The voice was

18 saying: "Come out. They know that you are hiding here".

19 Then she recalled that after that voice two soldiers entered the

20 basement in which these 15 people, after the departure and escape of three

21 people, were hidden. Then she recalled that she was very -- she gave a

22 very vivid account of how those two soldiers looked. She recalled that

23 their eyes were bloodshot and they were wearing camouflage uniforms and

24 she described their faces as "beastly" faces. That is what she literally

25 said.

Page 36

1 Then she recalled that all of them were ordered out of where

2 these 15 people were

3 hiding. She recalled that as she was moving out of the basement one of

4 the soldiers grabbed her daughter, her 17-year old daughter, who was also

5 hidden in the same shelter with Witness B. That soldier grabbed the

6 daughter by her arm saying: "Give me your beauty". Then she recalled

7 that saying this, he started dragging the daughter away. She recalled

8 that her daughter was screaming and she was struggling to pull away.

9 That same soldier who was grabbing the daughter by her arm was

10 joined by another soldier who started hitting her daughter with his

11 rifle and kicking her in the back, and each

12 time the daughter tried to pull away the other soldier who was

13 assisting the first soldier would hit her in the back and push her in

14 the back with the butt of his rifle.

15 Q. I think at this point the daughter was taken to a house, was she

16 not, by these two soldiers and then all the remaining people in the

17 basement were driven out; is that correct?

18 A. That is true, and the house that she was taken to, the witness

19 specifically mentioned, was house No. 3.

20 Q. House No. 3. So that is where the daughter of Witness B was taken

21 to by the two

22 soldiers; is that correct?

23 A. That is true.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Cayley, before you

25 continue, we will need to stand in recess for about five minutes, please.

Page 37

1 (Adjourned for a short time)

2 (11.40 a.m.)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, you may continue.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, your Honour. If I could just recap I think on what

5 the witness had just said. I think he had just confirmed to me after

6 I had put the question to him that the two soldiers then in fact

7 drove the remaining civilians hiding in the basement of Witness A

8 out of the basement to the outside.

9 Could you just confirm that, please?

10 A. That is true.

11 Q. I think indeed at this stage the two soldiers who were outside who

12 had taken this group of three men women and children outside

13 separated the men from the women; is that correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. I think at this stage the witness actually gave a description of the

16 uniform that the soldiers were wearing, and I wondered if you could

17 explain the description that she gave, please?

18 A. The witness recalled they were wearing camouflage uniforms and they

19 had white cloth ribbons tied around their uppers arms, and some of

20 them had black bands tied around their heads and a few of them had

21 crosses made of some shiny material hanging from their necks.

22 Q. I understand. Thank you. I think at this stage the soldiers began

23 taking money and jewellery from these people they had brought

24 outside; is that correct?

25 A. That is true.

Page 38

1 Q. I think the next events that took place, it would be best if you

2 actually explain that in the words of the witness?

3 A. The witness recalled that as one of these soldiers was collecting

4 money and the jewellery that the women were wearing, men were

5 standing aside, they were not standing in the line, and one of the

6 soldiers approached one of those three men that were there, and she

7 recalled that the name of that man was Rifed. That soldier was

8 standing behind Rifed and taking out a knife. He attacked Rifed and

9 brought his arm over his shoulder right in front of his neck, and

10 then pulled the knife across hitting Rifed at his neck just above the

11 collar bone. She recalled that she saw blood streaming out and she

12 saw Rifed bending over his knees, and the same soldier who had

13 attacked Rifed with his knife lashed at the back of Rifed when he was

14 bent over with his rifle and pushed him down on the ground and then

15 he shot him dead.

16 Q. I think there was then ----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me interrupt you for one moment, if I may. Is

18 this Witness B?

19 THE WITNESS: That is true, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who told you this?

21 THE WITNESS: That is true.

22 MR. CAYLEY: I think at this stage there was in fact another act of

23 violence, and I wondered if you could tell the court in the words of

24 the witness what happened?

25 A. The witness recalled that after the murder of Rifed there were two

Page 39

1 men left in this group

2 of 15 that had become 16 with the arrival of the neighbouring girl,

3 and the witness recalled

4 that one of those two men who were left was her husband Maho, as she

5 recalled his name, and she recalled that Maho had already surrendered

6 his money and he was holding out his wallet just to ensure the

7 soldier that he has already given the money. The same soldier who

8 had knifed and slit Rifed and shot him, shot him dead, told him to

9 stretch himself flat

10 on the ground and the witness recalled that her husband stretched

11 himself flat on the ground, his face downwards, and the same soldier

12 shot just below his left shoulder and her husband was dead.

13 Q. What happened to the third man who was in this group?

14 A. The other two stretched themselves flat on the ground for both the

15 men, and the third whose name was Edin and whose mother was also in

16 the group standing in the line, he was also ordered to stretch

17 himself flat on the ground. He stretched himself. He lay flat on the

18 ground and he was also in a similar way shot dead.

19 Q. I think there was indeed one further killing and if you could,

20 again, explain to the court what happened in the words of the

21 witness?

22 A. The witness recalled that they were standing in the line after these

23 three men had been murdered. The woman who was standing first in the

24 line on Witness B's left was by the name of Sida, and she recalled

25 that when these three men were killed Sida wept out, questioning:

Page 40

1 "Why are you doing this to us? What harm have we done to you?"

2 Witness B recalled that the same soldier struck Sida in her head with

3 his boots. Sida fell down on the ground. She was in a prostrate

4 position and she was crying: "Don't do this to me because my foot is

5 hurting", and the same soldier said: "What do you mean your foot

6 hurts?" Then he put his boots on the head of prostrate Sida and the

7 witness recalled that there was a small tree stump on the ground, and

8 he bent Sida's head on that tree stump and pinning her head in such a

9 way he shot her dead.

10 Q. I think at this stage the remaining people were forced into a shed.

11 Could you point out on the aerial photograph where that shed is

12 located? I think it was actually specifically referred to as a

13 summer kitchen, but it was in the nature of a shed?

14 A. It is No. 2 on this image.

15 Q. I think there was some discussion amongst these HVO soldiers, which

16 indeed the witness told you about, as to whether or not to shoot them

17 or burn them alive; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is true.

19 Q. I think indeed they were put into this shed, forced into this shed,

20 and that that shed was then locked by an HVO soldier because the key

21 was on the outside of the doors; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Can you tell the court in the words of the witness what happened

24 next?

25 A. Witness B distinctly remembered that when she was being taken to

Page 41

1 what she called "summer house" she saw soldiers throwing two dead

2 bodies. There were three men who had been killed and one woman, and

3 she saw two dead bodies being thrown into a burning house which was

4 at that instance house No. 3 here. That house had meanwhile been put

5 on fire, and in this house she saw two dead bodies being thrown. The

6 witness could not see whose dead bodies those were. So, on her way

7 to seeing these two dead bodies being thrown, she went inside and all

8 of them were locked up in the summer house. She eventually saw lots

9 of smoke through the glass panes of the window of the summer house.

10 There was lots of smoke, and after a while she saw that the glass of

11 the windows was shattering and she also saw flames outside. She

12 concluded that the summer house that they were confined into was on

13 fire.

14 Q. I think then at that point the witness explains to you that she uses

15 an axe to break open the door; is that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. Then I think the group that was remaining indeed escaped to the

18 surrounding forest around Stupni Do; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. Then I think eventually they made their way to the village of Pajtov

21 Han which is a nearby village to Stupni Do; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Where I think in fact they were arrested by local HVO; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That is true. There was a checkpoint there and they were stopped

Page 42

1 there.

2 Q. I think they were then rescued by members of the local United

3 Nations Protection Force who took them to Breeza; is that correct?

4 A. That is true.

5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Your Honours, if we could now move on to the next

6 witness.

7 Now this is Witness C. Are you familiar with Witness C?

8 A. Yes, I have an understanding of who Witness C is.

9 Q. Witness C I understand is the 19 year old son of Witness B; is that

10 correct?

11 A. 19 year old now.

12 Q. At the time of the attack on Stupni Do he would have been 16 years

13 of age?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. Am I correct in saying that he was with his mother throughout all of

16 the incidents that you have just described?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. Does he in fact corroborate his mother's account of events?

19 A. He does.

20 Q. We can deal with this witness very quickly, your Honours, because in

21 fact he broadly corroborates what his mother says. So I do not think

22 we need to go into any of the detail again.

23 At what time does this witness believe that the attack

24 commenced?

25 A. It was near 8 in the morning.

Page 43

1 Q. How did he know that the attack had commenced?

2 A. The witness recalled that there were three shell explosions and he

3 went out of the house and he recalled that he saw houses on fire, and

4 that is how he recalled the attacks started.

5 Q. Where does he state that the family immediately went to take

6 shelter?

7 A. He recalled that it was the bathroom of the house that they went

8 into.

9 Q. To whose basement shelter does he state that his family moved to?

10 A. He recalled that it was the house of Witness A which is marked as

11 No. 1 here.

12 Q. I think he confirms, does he not, like his mother that a

13 neighbouring girl comes to the basement with several HVO soldiers, is

14 that correct?

15 A. That is true.

16 Q. I think he gives a description of the badge and the uniform that

17 these soldiers were wearing. Could you describe that to the court?

18 A. Yes. This witness seemed to have had a very clear impression of the

19 shoulder badge that the soldiers were wearing. The witness recalled

20 that they were wearing camouflage uniforms and on the shoulder badge

21 he recalled that there were two rifles vertically placed, and he said

22 that those were M-48 rifles. The background colour of the badge was

23 green and amidst those two vertically placed rifles he recalled was a

24 Croat checkerboard and at the top of the checkerboard were written

25 the letters "HVO", and just beneath their butts, where the two

Page 44

1 buttons of the two rifles came together, he recalled were written in

2 the form of curve, an arc, the words "Croatian Defence Council".

3 Q. I think this is correct, is it not, that this witness confirms the

4 death of the three men as described by Witness B; is that correct?

5 A. That is true.

6 Q. Then I think this witness also in fact confirms that the remaining

7 women and children were forced into the summer house; is that

8 correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. I think he also confirms, does he not, that his mother breaks out of

11 this summer house, or breaks open the door to the summer house, with

12 an axe; is that correct?

13 A. That is true.

14 Q. I then think he states or stated to you that he escaped with the

15 other survivors to the local woods; is that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. I think he also confirmed to you that, like his mother, he escaped

18 to Pajtov Han where at an HVO checkpoint he was taken into custody by

19 the HVO; is that correct?

20 A. That is true.

21 Q. I think he gives more detail than his mother about the arrival of UN

22 Protection Force. Could you tell the court something about what he

23 said about this?

24 A. The witness recalled that they were stopped at an HVO checkpoint

25 which was located in the village of Pajtov Han, and he also

Page 45

1 remembered the name of the soldiers who were manning that HVO

2 checkpoint, and he recalled that both of those soldiers were

3 residents of Vares and he knew them. He recalls that about half an

4 hour after they had been stopped at that checkpoint two UNPROFOR

5 trucks came, and he recalled that he knew that in Vares the UNPROFOR

6 troops are from Sweden. He recalled that those trucks came near them

7 and stopped nearby them, and two soldiers, UNPROFOR soldiers, came

8 out of those trucks. He recalled that one of those soldiers was

9 speaking Bosnian language, and he came up to them, the Bosnian

10 language speaking UNPROFOR soldier, and he asked them who they were

11 and where they wanted to go.

12 Then the same soldier, UNPROFOR soldier who was speaking Bosnian

13 language, he went up to the two HVO soldiers who were manning that

14 checkpoint and asked them, "Why don't you let them off? Why don't

15 you release them? Why are they standing here?"

16 And the soldier who the Witness C recognises and remembers his name,

17 said that, "We can only give them permission to go with the prior

18 permission of Ivica Rajic.

19 Q. Specifically the witness said to you with the prior permission of

20 Ivica Rajic; is that correct?

21 A. That is true.

22 Q. I think indeed the UN Protection Force truck left after this had

23 been said to them, and then returned approximately half an hour

24 later; is that correct?

25 A. That is true.

Page 46

1 Q. Then I think at that stage all of the remaining survivors were take

2 to Dabravine; is that correct?

3 A. That is true.

4 Q. I think this witness also says something about the total number of

5 dead from Stupni Do, and I wondered if you could very briefly

6 summarise to the court what the witness said to you and how he

7 actually supported his assertions about the final number of dead, the

8 final number of dead in Stupni Do?

9 A. The witness recalled that one week after his after he had been

10 rescued and taken Dabravine, UNPROFOR brought the remains of 16

11 natives of Stupni Do and he was there

12 in Breeza and he saw the remains of those 16 natives of Stupni Do who

13 had been, who had died during the October 1993 attack. Then he

14 recalled that after Rajic was taken by Bosnian Army in November 1993,

15 and he recalled that it was his birthday somewhere in November 1993,

16 when he accompanied the new troops to the village of Stupni Do to

17 assist them with their efforts to search for the remains of some

18 other natives of Stupni Do who died during the attack, and he said

19 that he personally saw the remains of six other people being

20 recovered. He specifically gave the names of those six other natives

21 of Stupni Do who died during the October 1993 attack.

22 Apart from these 16 and six people, he said that he knew that

23 there were 16 other people who died during the attack, and he heard

24 from others who also assisted with the search for the bodies, he

25 heard it being said from them and he also specified the locations

Page 47

1 that he

2 heard being mentioned in connection with the remains of those bodies.

3 But he said that he did not see them being found out; he only heard

4 about them from others.

5 Q. Right. Thank you very much indeed. If we could move on to the next

6 witness, your Honours, which is in fact Witness D.

7 Mr. Bajwa, are you familiar with the identity of Witness B?

8 A. That is true.

9 Q. And familiar with the testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I think Witness D is a 35 year old woman who in fact was married to

12 the President of the Community, Witness A; is that correct?

13 A. That is true.

14 Q. I think Witness A had two children at the time of the attack aged 10

15 and 6; is that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. I think again this witness was present during the same events as

18 Witnesses B and C. So, if you can just confirm, as it were,

19 corroboration of what they had said I think that will be adequate for

20 the purposes of the court rather than repeating all the evidence

21 again.

22 I think that this witness actually said something quite

23 interesting about the village Guard Force in Stupni Do, and I wonder

24 if you could briefly state to the court what she said about that?

25 A. The Witness D recalled that the number of people in the village

Page 48

1 guard was about 30 to 40, and she said that they were all men who

2 were natives of Stupni Do. She said none of them was from outside

3 the village of Stupni Do, except for one exception that she made.

4 She said that there was one soldier, and she also gave his name, who

5 was visiting his brother at the time of the attack who also might

6 have been involved in defending the village at the time of the

7 attack, but otherwise it was a Guard Force that was composed

8 exclusively of the natives of Stupni Do.

9 Q. I think this witness confirms, does she not, that the attack

10 commenced at 8 o'clock in the morning of 23rd October 1993; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That is true.

13 Q. She also states, does she not, that she perceived that the attack

14 had commenced because she had heard shooting from all around; is that

15 correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. I think she then stated to you that she ran to the shelter in the

18 basement of the house with her two children; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think she also confirmed to you the arrival of Witnesses B and C

21 into the basement shelter; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. She also confirms the death of the three men which you have

24 explained through the evidence of Witness B. She says something

25 quite interesting and it is certainly relevant for the purpose of

Page 49

1 these proceedings about these three men. Can you say to the court

2 what she said?

3 A. She recalled that all three of them had impediments. She talked

4 about Rifed, the first man who was murdered, and she recalled that

5 Rifed had a congenital deformity in his foot, and

6 about Edin who also happened to be her brother-in-law, a brother of

7 her husband, she recalled that he had some nervous problem. He had

8 some kind of a mental impediment. Concerning Mehmo, the third man

9 who was murdered in Pricado, she recalled that he had

10 had some kind of a spinal fracture at his workplace. So all three of

11 them were handicapped in different ways. She also mentioned the

12 dresses, civilian clothes, that all three of them were wearing at the

13 time when they were found in the shelter.

14 Q. Thank you. I think she also says something, does she not, about the

15 appearance of the soldiers who came to the basement and something

16 about their uniforms. I wondered if you could tell the court what

17 she said about that?

18 A. The witness recalled that the attacking soldiers were clad in

19 camouflage uniforms, and she recalled that some of them had their

20 faces plastered with camouflage paint, and some of them were wearing

21 gloves without fingers, fingerless gloves, and she recalled that they

22 were armed with rifles and with knives and some of those knives were

23 in the sheaths that were hanging from their belts, and some of those

24 knives were tucked in their boots that they were wearing.

25 She also had a clear memory of the shoulder badges that they

Page 50

1 were wearing, and she recalled that the design of the shoulder badge

2 was such that there was a big "U" and inside the two arms of the "U"

3 was a Croat checkerboard, red and white, and at the top of the two

4 arms of the U were written letters "HVO" and she recalled that just

5 beneath the "U" were some roses and some branches.

6 Q. I think, as I have just stated, she confirms the death of the three

7 men who were present at the time. She also says something about her

8 young son. Could you explain to the court what she says about that?

9 A. Yes, the witness recalled that after the murder of Rifed, the same

10 soldier was holding the same knife that he had killed Rifed with, and

11 he brought that knife to her son that was standing, and she was

12 holding the hand of her son, her two sons, and the soldier put the

13 blade of the knife just underneath the chin of the son, just on his

14 throat, and when he was doing it and she had a clear impression that

15 the soldier was about to slit the throat of her son, and suddenly he

16 caught sight of her necklace and the jewellery she was wearing, and

17 then the soldier asked her to give him all the jewellery. She

18 recalled that she gave her finger ring and her earrings and her

19 necklace and that is how the life of her son was spared.

20 Q. How old was the boy, did she say to you?

21 A. Yes, his age was 7 years of age at that time.

22 Q. Thank you. I think the witness then said something to you about

23 Sido's house; do you recall what she said?

24 A. The witness said that after murdering three men, the soldiers turned

25 to this line of women and children and they said that we should kill

Page 51

1 them now and they should stand properly in

2 line, and when they were saying this, Sido said: "Don't do this to

3 us; what have we done? I have gotten a house here and I will give

4 you my house", and Witness B recalled that when she said this, her

5 house was not burning at that time, but one of the soldiers ordered

6 her house being burnt and her house was burnt with the help of

7 something that was put on

8 the rifle and fired and her house was burnt.

9 Later on she corroborated the fact, witness D corroborated the

10 fact, that Sida was also indeed killed.

11 Q. I think this witness also had a concern question put to her that was

12 not put to any of the other people present; is that correct?

13 A. That is true.

14 Q. Could you say what that question was?

15 A. She was asked where her husband was and when she expressed her

16 ignorance of the whereabouts of her husband, she was struck in her

17 head by the soldier who had put that question to her.

18 Q. I think again this witness confirmed that the soldiers discussed

19 amongst themselves as to whether or not these people should be shot

20 or, in fact, burnt alive; is that correct?

21 A. That is true.

22 Q. I think again this witness confirms that the dead bodies of the four

23 individuals were seen to

24 be carried into a burning house; is that correct?

25 A. That is true.

Page 52

1 Q. I think this witness also confirmed to you, did she not, that the

2 remaining group of women and children were taken into the summer

3 house which was duly locked by the HVO; is that correct?

4 A. That is true.

5 Q. I think she also confirmed, did she not, Witness B's account of the

6 breaking open of the door with an axe; is that correct?

7 A. That is true.

8 Q. I think she stated to you that the group spent two days in the

9 forest nearby; is that correct?

10 A. That is true.

11 Q. Then I think she stated, like indeed the other witnesses that we

12 have heard about, that the group went to Pajtov Han where they were

13 arrested by the HVO; is that correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. I think, indeed, this witness said to you that she was eventually

16 rescued with the others by the United Nations Protection Force; is

17 that correct?

18 A. This is true.

19 Q. I think she again confirms something about a discussion that took

20 place between the HVO and the United Nations Protection Force; is

21 that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Can you explain to the court what she said about this?

24 A. She recalled that the UNPROFOR soldier approached one of the HVO

25 soldiers at the checkpoint at which they had been stopped, and asked

Page 53

1 him for letting these people go, these survivors of Stupni Do, and

2 the soldier said that he could not do that without the prior

3 permission of Ivica Rajic and Emil Harak.

4 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, if we can now move on to witness E?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, let me ask a couple of questions

6 regarding witness D. (To the witness): You mentioned a guard force

7 of 30 to 40 people; is that correct?

8 A. That is true, your Honour.

9 Q. Who were the guard force? Were they part of the BiH or were they

10 local persons who lived in Stupni Do?

11 A. That is what the witness said. The witness said that they were all

12 the native residents of Stupni Do.

13 Q. Not regular army of the BiH?

14 A. She did not say that. She did not say that they were part of

15 regular army of Bosnia.

16 Q. You mentioned that these soldiers who had HVO badges on them were

17 dressed in camouflage. Was that green or black or neither? I think

18 of camouflage as being, you know, a combination of, perhaps, green

19 and brown, something that might go along with surrounding trees, but

20 from reading the witness statements it seems that it may have been a

21 different colour. You tell me.

22 A. On the basis of the interviews with some of the other interviews, it

23 appears that a distinction can be made between black uniform and

24 camouflage uniform because there a number of witnesses who mention

25 about soldiers being clad in black uniform. So this witness

Page 54

1 specifically mentioned it to be camouflage uniform, so my impression

2 of it is it is the camouflage uniform which blends with the

3 plantation and with colours around.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Cayley. You are

5 proceeding to witness E?

6 MR. CAYLEY: Witness E. (To the witness): I think witness E is a young

7 woman; is that correct?

8 A. That is true.

9 Q. I think, indeed, she was aged 14 at the time of the attack; is that

10 correct?

11 A. That is true.

12 Q. I think she was born in Stupni Do and had lived in Stupni Do all her

13 life; is that correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. I think witness E lived in a different area of the village to which

16 we have been talking about already with the other witnesses. I

17 wondered if you could indicate on the aerial photograph exactly where

18 she did live, where witness A indeed said her place of residence

19 in the village was located?

20 A. Yes, it was a portion of the village that was lower than the portion

21 that we have been talking about and, according to witness E, the name

22 of that portion is Zarnoger and her house here was 22.

23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bajwa. I think this witness noted

24 something about the change in the uniform of the Police Officers. I

25 think, your Honour, this may assist in the question

Page 55

1 you just addressed to the witness. Could you explain what the

2 witness said to you about this?

3 A. The witness recalled that as a student of the elementary school what

4 she remembered as Vares Majdam, she used to go to Vares Majdam daily

5 to attend her school and her classes. She could not recall exactly

6 when, but she said that she has only noticed that Police Officers who

7 used to wear grey uniforms started wearing camouflage uniforms, and

8 she also recalled that they had badges with Croatian chessboard and

9 HVO written on them. She recalled that lots of these new policemen

10 in camouflage uniforms were wearing crosses around their necks.

11 Q. I think this witness confirmed to you, did she not, that the night

12 before the attack the electricity was cut off in the village; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. I think her mother commented to her at the time that if the

16 electricity was cut off, then there was trouble ahead; is that right?

17 A. Yes she recalled that is what her mother said.

18 Q. In the early morning of October 23rd the witness stated to you what

19 she had heard. Can you explain to the court what she said to you?

20 A. Can you please repeat that question?

21 Q. Yes, in the early morning of October 23rd at about 8 o'clock, I

22 think the witness stated what she heard. I wondered if you could say

23 to the court what she said to you?

24 A. Yes, she recalled that morning at the start of the attack, she was

25 piling wood logs just outside her house in the shed, and she heard

Page 56

1 some random shootings, and she thought that

2 that shooting should be the one by those youths which used to do that

3 in the village. But suddenly after those random shots, she said

4 that suddenly lots of intense firing started and

5 she recalled that firing was coming from Vares Majdam, from Bjelo

6 Borje and from Mir and from all the different directions, and seeing

7 so much of firing she rushed inside her house to see what was

8 happening.

9 Q. I think the witness then stated to you, did she not, that her, her

10 father, her sister and her aunt rushed to the basement shelter of the

11 house; is that correct?

12 A. That is true.

13 Q. I think then the witness explained to you what happened next. Can

14 you tell the court what she said to you?

15 A. The witness recalled that in the basement with her were her sister

16 and the sister of her father and her father himself, and presently

17 her father left saying that he is going to reinforce the defences of

18 the village. With the departure of her father, the three women were

19 left behind in the basement. She recalled that meanwhile all the

20 windows had broken

21 and all of them, all three of them, were lying on the wooden floor of

22 the basement.

23 Then she remembered that some of her neighbours arrived and she

24 recalled the name of Nevzeta who came with her seven year old

25 daughter. Then she recalled the name of Lejla

Page 57

1 who came with her one-year old granddaughter, Indira. Then she

2 recalled the name of Merima who came with her son, Vahidin, and with

3 her daughter, Mebrula. And all of them came, and with their arrival

4 they became 10.

5 Q. I think at this point she found out that there were soldiers very

6 nearby where they were sheltering. How did she know this?

7 A. Then she recalled that there was another neighbour who came and she

8 said that she was in a very bad condition and her clothes were all

9 ridden with dust and she was trembling. She said that, "They have

10 entered, the HVO have entered the village". The witness, he recalled

11 that that neighbour who came, she said that those soldiers were clad

12 in black uniforms and they had white cloth ribbons tied around their

13 upper arms and they had black caps on their heads. That is the

14 description that was given to witness E at that time in point by one

15 of her neighbours who arrived in her house.

16 Q. I think at this point, indeed, the witness's neighbour noticed some

17 soldiers around the house from which they had just fled; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think it was decided at that point that they would, in fact, all

21 leave the basement shelter because that neighbouring house was very

22 close by to them and they thought they would, in fact, have an

23 arrival of soldiers soon to them; is that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. I think the witness explained to you that she ran out of the

Page 58

1 basement and behind a rain barrel that was next to the house; is that

2 correct?

3 A. That is true.

4 Q. Could you explain to the court what she said to you happened next?

5 A. She said that the moment that they saw soldiers in the nearby house

6 everybody wanted to flee the basement where all of them were, and she

7 also went out trying to flee the place. She saw a water barrel just

8 lying beside the wall of the house in whose basement she was hiding,

9 and she just huddled herself in one of the corner behind that barrel.

10 She said that she could still be seen, she was not fully hidden, and

11 she said that firing was still going on

12 ad presently she felt as if a bullet had struck the barrel behind

13 which she was hiding. Fearing that it had been hit, she recalled

14 that she gradually crawled out of the barrel and she recalled that

15 she did not know what to do. She was just squatting on the ground,

16 and squatting on the ground she noticed that on her left side her

17 dimija that she was wearing had been torn, and she could see that the

18 skin where the dimija was torn was pierced and there was blood, a

19 trickle of blood, there.

20 Q. I think then a voice, in fact, called to her from the basement

21 calling her back inside; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Who was in the basement?

24 A. She said that it was her sister Medina and her aunt Hatioza.

25 Q. I think, in fact, the group of people in the basement then hid in a

Page 59

1 pit in the ground; is that correct?

2 A. That is true.

3 Q. I understand that the witness then explained that she heard

4 masculine voices calling down into the basement. I wondered if you

5 could explain something of that to the court?

6 A. The witness recalled that at that time totally there were four,

7 including witness E herself, and amongst which was her sister, her

8 aunt and one of the neighbours, and all of them were crammed into

9 that vegetable storage pit in the basement. She recalled that she

10 was curled up and she was lying on the floor of the pit and on her

11 was sitting her own sister who was covering her.

12 She recalled that she heard these sounds of somebody saying:

13 "Is there anybody in?" Then she recalled that it appeared as if the

14 same person who had asked this question stepped into the basement

15 into whose pit they were sheltered, and then she recalled the same

16 voice calling somebody by the name of Kakanjac. She recalled that

17 somebody replied to that call for Kakanjac and asked: "What?" and

18 this man said: "I have found three balija women".

19 Q. I understand. So after the soldier actually called out, what did

20 the witness say happened next?

21 A. She recalled that suddenly she realised that there were two men

22 inside the basement where these four women were hidden, and she

23 realised that probably she was not visible to them because this man

24 had only mentioned three balija women and not four, because actually

25 there were four. So presently she recalled that they were swearing

Page 60

1 at these three women that they were looking at. She said that she

2 did not hear any kind of a response or any kind of a voice of those

3 three women who were on her and who were there and who were visible

4 to those men. Then presently she recalled that she heard a burst of

5 gunfire and later on it was all quiet.

6 Q. I think, indeed, the witness said to you that she called out to the

7 three women that were with her in a low whisper and that there was no

8 reply; is that correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. I think she then called to her sister again and there was still no

11 response; is that correct?

12 A. That is true.

13 Q. I think the witness then said to you that she had climbed out of the

14 pit and she saw something unusual. Can you explain to the court what

15 it was that she saw?

16 A. She recalled that she saw a candle with a flame flickering just

17 beside the pit in which these

18 three dead women lay.

19 Q. I think at this stage the witness explained to you that she ran up

20 towards Pricado which is, indeed, the previous image which was on the

21 television screen in front of the court; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Did anything happen as she was running away?

24 A. She recalled that she was wounded with -- her buttock had been

25 pierced with a bullet so she slowed down while she was trying to run

Page 61

1 and escape. She slowed down and while she

2 was trudging along the way up Pricado, she heard a voice, one man

3 calling to another: "Go after her, catch her, kill her", and she

4 recalled that suddenly after this there were bullets that were

5 striking around the place where she was, and she again broke into a

6 fast run and reached to the nearby forest.

7 Q. I think she then moved to an area of the forest, in fact, a clearing

8 in the trees above Stupni Do called Ravnica; is that correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. I think there she met five to six soldiers. Could you explain to

11 the court what she said to you about this?

12 A. Yes, she recalled that when she noticed those soldiers in that

13 clearing of Ravnica just above Pricado, they were already jumping

14 over the fence around that clearing. She had an impression that they

15 had seen her. So she was about to run when those soldiers addressed

16 her saying that, "surrender yourself". She said that, "When they said

17 this, I was sure that they had seen me so I again starting running

18 and they started shooting at me from behind".

19 Q. I think at this stage the witness met up with other villagers; she

20 ran from this point and she

21 met a lot of villagers; is that correct?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. I think she decided to do something somewhat unusual and I wondered

24 if you could explain what she decided to do next?

25 A. She recalled that she was hiding inside the trees with a clump of

Page 62

1 trees, and suddenly it occurred to her that she should climb up the

2 tree and see the village, what was happening there.

3 Q. So, indeed, she had a panoramic view of the whole village from this

4 beech tree; is that correct?

5 A. That is true.

6 Q. Can you explain to the court what she saw?

7 A. Yes, she recalled that she saw lots of fires in the village. She

8 recalled that from her position at the top of the tree she could saw

9 all the different portions of the village. She could see Pricado and

10 Mlincic and Lipa in the main village itself, and she saw fires

11 everywhere. She recalled the names of specific houses where those

12 fires were, and suddenly she saw the roof top of one of the houses in

13 the main body of the village which was called Guvno suddenly

14 exploding and turning into pieces. That is what she saw.

15 Q. I think some time later she actually returned into the village; is

16 that correct?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. Where I think she met up with her father; is that correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. What did she tell you about the house that she had fled from? I

21 think she mentioned something to you about this?

22 A. Yes, she said that when she fled from that house at that time she

23 only knew that there were three people who had been killed there,

24 and that was because she was hidden with them. But later on her

25 father asked her about the sister, about father's sister and about

Page 63

1 witness E's sister, and she said: "Both of them are killed". The

2 father asked about some of the other neighbours who were hidden with

3 witness E. She said she did not know at that time. But the same

4 night, when they fled out of the village, the father went back to the

5 house to see the dead body of her daughter, witness E's sister, and

6 coming back, father of witness E told witness E that everybody else,

7 nine people, were killed and their dead bodies were there in the

8 house.

9 Q. I think she then subsequently went to the basement of another house

10 in the village; is that correct?

11 A. That is true.

12 Q. There was a fairly large group of people sheltering in that

13 basement; is that correct?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. I think she then joined that group and eventually she explained that

16 she reached Dabravine with the help of the United Nations Protection

17 Forces; is that correct?

18 A. That is true.

19 Q. Thank you very much indeed. If we could now move on, please, your

20 Honours, to witness F? Witness F, I think, is it correct that she

21 was at the time of the attack a 41 year old woman?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. I think, indeed, she was a housewife. She describes herself as a

24 housewife to you with two children in their early 20s; is that

25 correct?

Page 64

1 A. That is true.

2 Q. I think she also told you, did she not, that both her son and her

3 husband were killed in the attack on Stupni Do; is that correct?

4 A. That is true.

5 Q. I think she actually said something to you about the ethnic mix of

6 the village prior to the attack on Stupni Do, in fact, I correct

7 myself there, prior to the breakdown of the former Yugoslavia. I

8 wondered if you could say something about that?

9 A. Yes, witness recalled that there were about eight houses, Serb

10 houses, in the village apart from one Croat woman married to a Muslim

11 man.

12 Q. I think this witness also, and this was from her personal experience

13 because both her husband and her son were in the village guard force,

14 actually says something to you, she gives a description of the

15 village guard force. Could you explain to the court what she says?

16 A. Yes, actually when the witness was asked concerning this aspect she

17 said that there were soldiers in the village, but then she suddenly

18 said that, "We should not call them soldiers, they were guards

19 because all of them were from our village, none of them from outside

20 the village, and they were just protecting their own village". She

21 said that some of them did not have uniforms, and she recalled that

22 her own husband and her own son, both of whom were members of that

23 village guard, did not have uniforms. Both of them just had

24 camouflage jackets without trousers. Then she recalled that her

25 husband had bought somewhere boots for her son, but her son's foot

Page 65

1 size was bigger and the boots were shorter, so it was that kind of

2 force that they had in the village.

3 Q. I think on the night of 22nd October 1993, she indeed said to you

4 that she was at home with her son, Muamer, and her husband Saley; is

5 that correct?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. I think she said to you, did she not, that in the morning she had to

8 rise quite early because her son Muamer had to go for guard duty and

9 she, in fact, had to cook his breakfast; is that correct?

10 A. That is true.

11 Q. Can you explain what she said to you about the departure of her son

12 from the house?

13 A. Yes. There were moments of deep distress for her to recall

14 everything and she said that the son left the doors of the house

15 saying, "Allah-I-Manad", and then she said: "I kept standing in the

16 door looking at the back of my son", and the son went down and

17 reached the road just beside the house and then he turned back

18 realising that his mother might still

19 be there. He, a second time, he said, "Allah-I-Manad", and then he

20 went away. Then she started crying and saying that, "I never saw

21 another time living or dead".

22 Q. Her son?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What does "Allah-I-Manad" mean, please?

25 A. The witness was not asked this question, but otherwise it is a

Page 66

1 Bosnian variation of Arabic farewell.

2 Q. So it is a form of valediction?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What does that mean in English?

5 A. It should mean "To the protection of God".

6 Q. I understand, thank you. I think the witness then said to you that

7 her husband went to the area of village called Guvno and he took the

8 keys to their stable with him; is that correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. I think she explained to you that she followed him to get the keys

11 to the stable and then returned back to their house to prepare the

12 coffee for the breakfast; is that correct?

13 A. That is true.

14 Q. I think her husband then returned and they sat down and drank their

15 coffee for their breakfast. I think she said something very specific

16 about the timing of the attack. I wondered if you could explain that

17 to the court?

18 A. Yes, she recalled that they had a clock with a cuckoo in their

19 house, and she recalled that when they started sipping at their cups

20 of coffee the cuckoo started cooing, and she remembered that

21 distinctly, that it was 8.00 in the morning and a while later, while

22 they were talking to one another, a shell fell.

23 Q. Indeed, shooting started all around; is that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. I think the witness then explained to you that her husband told her

Page 67

1 to go to Rasida's house; is that correct?

2 A. That is true.

3 Q. In fact, I think, indeed, this witness did go to the basement of

4 Rasida's house and that basement, am I correct, was in fact decided

5 into two rooms?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. I think there was one larger room and one smaller room; is that

8 correct?

9 A. That is true.

10 Q. Then I think, in fact, other people arrived in this basement

11 shelter; is that correct?

12 A. That is true.

13 Q. How many people arrived?

14 A. She talked about two women call Kada and Melca.

15 Q. I think she then heard shooting all around again; is that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. I think the witness heard shouting. There were specific words which

18 she remembered very clearly and I wondered if you could repeat those

19 to the court?

20 A. Yes. She recalled that while in the basement she was just pacing up

21 and down fearing for the lives of her husband and her son, and every

22 now and then he would just dash towards the door to see what is

23 happening outside. On one of these occasions when she was just

24 standing by the door she heard lots of shoutings and yellings

25 outside, and she recalled distinctly that it was "Uraa, Spremni Za

Page 68

1 Don", and the witness specifically said that this is

2 the war cry of, what she said, "Ustashas".

3 Q. I understand. I think this witness also confirmed that she heard

4 screaming from Kava Likic's house; is that correct?

5 A. That is true.

6 Q. In fact, that is where nine people were killed; is that correct?

7 A. That is true.

8 Q. I think this witness seeing that, as she called them, the Ustasha

9 were close around the house, it was decided that all of the women and

10 children would move into the back room leaving an older gentleman,

11 Ramiz Likic, in the front room; is that correct?

12 A. That is true.

13 Q. I think at this stage she heard the sound of boots upstairs; is

14 that correct?

15 A. That is true.

16 Q. I think Ramiz Likic came from the front room to the back room and,

17 indeed, told them to surrender and that the HVO had arrived; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That is true.

20 Q. I think at this stage the soldiers who came into the basement made

21 both Ramiz Likic and all the women and children that were present

22 come out of the basement to the outside of the house; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. What did the soldiers say to them?

Page 69

1 A. The soldiers asked them for money and for all their valuables and

2 told them to surrender their jewellery, and they said that only those

3 will live who will be able to produce at least 100 German marks.

4 Q. I think at this stage this older gentleman Ramiz Likic was taken to

5 one side by the soldiers;

6 is that correct?

7 A. That is true.

8 Q. Can you explain to the court what happened to him?

9 A. The witness recalled that they were made to stand in a line and

10 Ramiz Likic was also, and Ramiz Likic happened to be the

11 brother-in-law of the witness, was also standing in the same line and

12 suddenly she heard a voice saying: "Step aside, you old man". Then

13 she saw that the brother-in-law stepped aside, and then she recalled

14 that he was asked for money and he said that he is an old man and he

15 is just a pensioner and he does not have no money on him.

16 Then she heard the sound of a shot being fired and she said that

17 she was too scared to turn her neck and see what had happened to

18 Ramiz. So she heard a voice saying that, "Still not dead" and a

19 second shot, and then she said that she just glanced sideways and she

20 saw Ramiz Likic lying on the ground.

21 Q. I think at this stage one of the soldiers who is in the group that

22 was at this location says something that makes her realise that her

23 son is dead. I wondered if you could tell the account that she gave

24 to you about this?

25 A. The witness recalled that while they were collecting money and

Page 70

1 jewellery from them, one of the soldiers was saying that, "We have

2 killed all of them and we have killed your bravest soldier". Then

3 when he was talking about the bravest soldier, he said "Godiste 73".

4 She said: "According to our language, Godiste 73 would mean the

5 bravest soldier is

6 the one who was born in 73". And then she said that he became more

7 specific in saying Godiste 73, he said, "Mugdim". She said "I knew

8 that there was nobody in the defence of

9 the village or, indeed, even amongst the residents of the village

10 whose name could be Mugdim". She recalled that since the name of her

11 own son was Muamer, she just came to realise that it is her son, the

12 bravest soldier, and who had also been born in 73, who was being

13 referred to by the same soldier. That is how she came to know that

14 he was dead and he had been murdered, he had been killed.

15 Q. I think at this stage soldiers tell one of the women that she has to

16 go to where the village guard was located and tell them to surrender;

17 is that correct?

18 A. That is true.

19 Q. I think, indeed, that particular lady could not go because she said

20 she had two young children to look after; is that correct?

21 A. That is true.

22 Q. In fact, I think, indeed the witness was then chosen for this job;

23 is that correct?

24 A. That is true.

25 Q. I think, indeed, the witness told you that she started to proceed to

Page 71

1 where she thought the village guard force was located and she became

2 very frightened because she saw a lot of soldiers around her; is that

3 correct?

4 A. That is true.

5 Q. Can you give a brief description of what she said about the uniforms

6 of the soldiers that she saw?

7 A. Yes, she said that they were wearing black uniforms.

8 Q. I think, indeed, she said that she was so frightened that she turned

9 around to go back to where she had come from; is that correct?

10 A. That is true.

11 Q. I think at this stage a soldier said something to her and advised

12 her not to be frightened. Could you explain what exactly happened?

13 A. Yes. The witness recalled that, frightened by seeing so many

14 soldiers gathered at a neighbouring house, she suddenly turned back

15 and as she turned back she saw this soldier,

16 and she told that soldier: "I cannot go to communicate your message

17 to our soldiers because there are other soldiers there and they might

18 shoot at me". That soldier said: "Don't worry. They will not shoot

19 at you. I am their commander." The witness was emphatic that the

20 word that that soldier used was "Zapovgednik". She said that

21 "Zapovgednik" is the name for the commander used by Croats.

22 Then the witness recalled that she had been in a very strange

23 state. She could not recollect things. She could not recollect

24 features, but certainly when the soldier said, "I am the commander", she

25 said: "I was suddenly shaken and I looked at this soldier who was

Page 72

1 describing himself as the commander of all this destruction". She said:

2 "I was able to see the face of this soldier".

3 She gave a description and the description that the witness F

4 gave was that it was a middle-aged man; he had a broad thick set

5 frame; he had hair that was dark brown in colour and he had a round

6 face and at that time she said that he was wearing a beard that did

7 not look dusty, it looked to be freshly trimmed. It was about two

8 and a half centimetres. She said that he was wearing a uniform and

9 some of the upper buttons of his

10 shirt were open, and she recalled that by virtue of the fact that she

11 saw this big cross shining on his chest, and she recalled that he

12 spoke in a very low and in a very calm fashion and he was very

13 soothing.

14 Q. I understand. I think she, indeed, then does go to the village

15 guard and, in fact, subsequently makes good her escape from the

16 village; is that correct?

17 A. That is true.

18 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honours, we do not intend to examine Mr. Bajwa as to the

19 final statement in the bundle that we originally said we were, in

20 fact, going to ask him to talk about, but I certainly think it is a

21 statement that you will find of extremely useful guidance

22 in respect of the village guard force, because the individual who

23 gave the statement was a member of the village guard force. But he

24 does not actually give any evidence of the atrocities in Stupni Do,

25 specific evidence on atrocities, so I think in many ways it would be

Page 73

1 perfectly satisfactory for you to read it in your deliberations.

2 JUDGE SIDHWA: That is regarding witness G?

3 MR. CAYLEY: That is regarding witness G, your Honour, yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you concluded with this witness?

5 MR. CAYLEY: I have concluded with this witness, Madam President.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you may be excused, thank you very much.

7 JUDGE SIDHWA: Have you got a final complete question to him that he has

8 recorded the statements of pseudonym witnesses A to G and that they

9 were taken properly, that materially he did not add anything or

10 subtract anything from their statements and they were recorded in the

11 normal course, and that these witnesses originally, whoever they are,

12 signed those? Has the composite question been put to him?

13 MR. CAYLEY: That question has been put to him, your Honour.

14 JUDGE SIDHWA: Covering all of them?

15 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, covering all of those aspects, your Honour, yes.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much. You are excused.

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, who will be your next witness? How long

19 do you anticipate to hear from him or her?

20 MR. CAYLEY: The next witness will be examined by my learned friend Mr.

21 Ostberg. I would estimate it would take approximately 45 minutes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Cayley, why do you not call your next witness

23 and we will hear from him, perhaps, for 15 to 20 minutes and then we

24 will recess for lunch?

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Madam President. If you could call Brigadier Ulf

Page 74

1 Henricsson, please?


3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

4 truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, General Henricsson. You may be seated.

7 Mr. Ostberg?

8 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour. Yes, I am ready to proceed.

9 Examined by MR. OSTBERG

10 Q. You are Brigadier General Ulf Henricsson?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As I can see from your uniform, serving with the Swedish Army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very good. Would you give the court a brief account of your

15 military career?

16 A. Yes, I am an army officer. I had made a normal career and became

17 Colonel, head of the Armoured Combat School in '90. I got Brigade

18 Commander for the 10th Mechanised Brigade in '91 and I got the

19 assignment to organise and train the first Nordic battalion for

20 Bosnia in April '93. I came down to Bosnia with a recognisance team

21 at the beginning of September.

22 Q. Do we now turn to your engagement with the United Nations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When were you first asked, after you have done this training of the

25 battalion, when were you put on the UN assignment for the first time?

Page 75

1 A. Well, my first assignment was when I got the job in April '93.

2 Q. To do the training?

3 A. To do the training. That was a UN assignment. Then I started down

4 here as a part of UNPROFOR in September '93.

5 Q. As a commander of the Nordic battalion?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were you then based in Bosnia?

8 A. We had our headquarters outside Tuzla and my area of responsibility

9 was the same as the 2nd Bosnian Army corps, and it started north in

10 the Posavina corridor in Brcko and down south, to some 10 kilometres

11 south of Vares in central Bosnia.

12 Q. We have some maps we are now formally going to offer into evidence.

13 We firstly start introducing a map of Bosnia

14 and that is Exhibit 2. This is nothing but a map of Bosnia but on

15 our screens you can just point where in Bosnia your battalion was

16 based?

17 A. Yes. It is a very bad map.

18 Q. Is it?

19 A. Yes, but I will find it.

20 Q. We will have a more detailed one as exhibit No. 3, I think.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Bad because you say it is small, it is difficult?

22 A. No, it is bad too, but my area of responsibility started up here at

23 Brcko, some 10 kilometres south of Brcko, and south to Vares down

24 here, there, and then from the east, from Kalesija and over to about

25 up to some 10 kilometres east of the border and then it followed the

Page 76

1 line of confrontation over this area.

2 Q. You used the term "line of confrontation". Give us a very short

3 overview of the military situation in the vicinity of where you were

4 deployed.

5 A. Yes. The line of confrontation run in some, I think it was, 20

6 kilometres east of Tuzla and then north ------

7 Q. I think we now introduce a new map. You have already a new map, a

8 better one?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You have the same?

11 A. I have the same.

12 Q. We will give you another one to make it easier to go into details.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 2, are you going to offer that into

14 evidence, that was the first map?

15 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we do.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a map that you have produced, I gather?

17 MR. OSTBERG: We have produced it, yes, your Honour. That was the one we

18 firstly saw.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was that produced by the Prosecutor's Office, I

20 suppose?

21 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, it is.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 2 will be admitted. This is Exhibit 3 now?

23 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Another. Let us see if Brigadier General Henricsson

25 says this is any better, is it?

Page 77

1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, it is. You recognised the first one. It is Bosnia!

2 A. This is a map over the town of Vares in the south of my area of

3 responsibility, and my area

4 of responsibility went in this area up to the village of Dastansko,

5 and then it went down some 10 kilometres. If you put the map a

6 little more on the south, my area of responsibility, you have the

7 village of Stupni Do which was inside my area of responsibility, and

8 we have the borderline to the British battalion in a village called

9 Pajtou

10 Han which is some 10 kilometres south of Vares, along the road

11 running down to Breeza and Sarajevo.

12 Q. You can see the road on this map?

13 A. Not on the screen, but on this one, so if you move the map a little

14 more down south.

15 Q. Can you do that? Can we do that? We cannot do that. But you can

16 maybe as you describe it, do you have a -----

17 A. If you see the town of Vares, you have a road, and if you follow

18 that road 10 kilometres south you have the limit, and the border of

19 my area of responsibility in a small village called Pajtou Hahn.

20 Q. Where were the confrontation lines?

21 A. In this area the confrontation line, and on the map, on the screen,

22 it went about one kilometre east of Dastansko and run from north to

23 south, and then it turned to in the village of, I have a name

24 Bonikva, and one kilometre south of that road it went off to the

25 east, and that is the line of confrontation in this area shown on the

Page 78

1 screen.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you want to go further west, we are told that you

3 could put the map on the overhead projector. I gather this shows

4 enough to show the confrontation line east. Do you want -----

5 A. It is enough to talk about what happened in Vares, yes.

6 Q. If you want to go further west, you may, but you will have to use

7 the overhead projector?

8 MR. OSTBERG: But you do not have to; maybe we can adjust the one we have

9 when we go into the details of Stupni Do. I just want to know the

10 confrontation lines between -----

11 A. It was for us the confrontation line was between the Bosnian Serbs

12 and the Bosnian government, the Muslim, mainly, but in this area it

13 was a Croat brigade, as a Croat enclave, and this brigade, the

14 Bobovac Brigade, was under the command official by the 2nd corps.

15 Q. Can you tell us using the little map you have on the screen of the

16 outlines of the authority of the HVO, the second command?

17 A. Yes, the headquarter of the HVO was, then you have to put the

18 picture a little more south if it is possible, it is just up north

19 with the name Orsoya.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Really, I think it would be help us if -----

21 MR. OSTBERG: Is this enough for your Honours to see?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, but in the buildings north of the name, if you put it

23 more north up there, yes, you were right. There you have it. There

24 we have the headquarter of the Bobovac Brigade and of my own company

25 command of the H company from Nordic at the same spot.

Page 79

1 Q. Were they based in the vicinity of each other?

2 A. Yes, it was about 200 metres between our camp and the headquarters

3 of the Bobovac Brigade.

4 Q. Did you tell the court now the outlines of the authority of the

5 Bobovac Brigade, of the entire HVO in this area?

6 A. Yes, I cannot do it on this screen but I can take it on the big map

7 here.

8 Q. Yes, may be that would be of interest?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think for me it is of interest because, well,

10 first I would want the witness to describe what is, as he calls it, a

11 confrontation line. It would be helpful if he could draw or at least

12 we could get the perimeters primarily because of your argument about

13 the nature of the conflict, was it truly international, so it is

14 important for me.

15 MR. OSTBERG: Can you, please, put this under the other -----

16 THE WITNESS: It is the same scale as before.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe we will stand in recess now. I think what

18 would be helpful,

19 at least for me, would be a drawing in some kind of a pencil, pen or

20 something of the north, the east, the south and the west borders of

21 the confrontation line during this time.

22 MR. OSTBERG: And the HVOs, where they were and the authority of the HVO.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is true. If we can get -----

24 MR. OSTBERG: In the recess we will ask the General to do that on the map

25 which we will then tender as an exhibit.

Page 80

1 THE WITNESS: I think that is the simplest way of doing it.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

3 (The hearing adjourned for a short time)

4 (2.30 p.m.)

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Ostberg, we were hearing from Brigadier General

6 Henricsson. Are you ready to proceed?

7 MR. OSTBERG: I am ready to proceed, yes, thank you, your Honour.


9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Brigadier General, you understand that you are still

10 under oath, do you not?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we are ready to resume.

13 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. May it please your Honours, now we have put on

14 the board a map with the lines put there by the Brigadier General.

15 First, I will ask you, look at your screen in front of

16 you ---

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- and then point on the map on the board to say what part of it is

19 on the screen -- on the one you have made the lines on, on that one,

20 yes?

21 A. Yes. Here we have the town of Varis.

22 Q. Yes. Have you before you on the screen also part of the map?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just outline on the big map what part of it is on the screen.

25 A. Yes.

Page 81

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. It is this part.

3 Q. Very good. Thank you. Then we know exactly where you are when you

4 look on your own screens. Then go on, please, to tell me what do

5 these lines, the red one and the green one and the signs mean?

6 A. The red line is a confrontation line between the Bosnian Serbs and

7 the government controlled area with a mainly Muslim, but in this

8 area, this area up here, was controlled by Muslim unit. This area

9 was controlled by Croat unit, a Croat unit named the Bobovac Brigade,

10 and then it was Muslim unit down here. The Croat unit was under the

11 command

12 of the 2nd Bosnian Army corps which had their headquarters up in

13 Tuzla, here.

14 Q. Outside the other map, Tuzla is outside the other map.

15 A. OK, yes, very long, because we have that little map on the screen

16 now, from here, but they were commanded formally from Tuzla but, in

17 reality, somewhere else. This Muslim army corps, the third one, was

18 commanded from Zenica. So we have a border between two government

19 controlled army corps in this line.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that we will have the record straight, to the

21 left, that is green, is it, or blue? I am not colour blind.

22 MR. OSTBERG: It is green, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, to the left then, to the left, your left, my

24 left of the green, then that is the area controlled, you said, by the

25 Bosnian Croats; is that correct?

Page 82

1 A. No, that is not correct ---

2 Q. Sorry.

3 A. -- because this is the government controlled, the Bosnian government

4 controlled, area.

5 Q. The whole map?

6 A. On the north and west of this red line.

7 Q. What is north and west?

8 A. This part, this part of the map ---

9 Q. OK.

10 A. -- is government controlled. This was controlled by the Serbs, but

11 inside the government controlled area, there was a Croat enclave and

12 a Croat HVO unit inside the Muslim areas which were (indecipherable)

13 and up north from here.

14 Q. OK. So to the left then of the green is controlled by -- to the

15 left of the green ---

16 MR. OSTBERG: Croat.

17 THE WITNESS: This is Croat controlled.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: All of the left, to the left of the green?

19 A. And north of this line here, that is controlled by the Croats.

20 Q. Then where the pink or red line is, to the right of that then would

21 be controlled by the Bosnian Serbs?

22 A. Yes. This area.

23 Q. Then there is an area right to the south of the green line and to

24 the west of the red line, that would be controlled by the Muslims?

25 A. The Muslims, yes.

Page 83

1 Q. Then to the north in between the green and the pink line would be

2 controlled by the Muslims?

3 A. Yes. OK.

4 MR. OSTBERG: Are we in the clear?


6 MR. OSTBERG (To the witness): Then I will ask you, my next question is,

7 where was it, if any, fighting between Croats, I mean, Bosnian

8 Croats, and Muslims?

9 A. At that time the fighting ------

10 Q. We are talking now about October 1992?

11 A. Yes, and the fightings between the Muslim and the Croats was in

12 central Bosnia in this area, from Viseko and down to Mostar -------

13 Q. Before you continue, maybe we should take, if I can have the help of

14 the usher, down the map with the lines and tender that as Exhibit No.

15 3?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Those lines are the confrontation lines you have

17 referred to?

18 MR. OSTBERG: Yes. The confrontation lines that the General is telling us

19 about.


21 MR. OSTBERG: Yes. You can take it down and we offer it as evidence - you

22 can take it away and give it to the Registrar.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that going to be Exhibit 3 as modified?

24 MR. OSTBERG: No. 3, yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As modified with the colours?

Page 84

1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, indeed. (To the witness): Now on the board, then

2 please, General, if you will continue, tell us what we have on the

3 board?

4 A. Yes, here we have a long confrontation line between the Bosnian

5 Serbs on this side, the west side and then the government controlled

6 Bosnia, and at this time it was heavy fighting between the Muslims

7 and the Croats inside the government controlled Bosnia, in this area,

8 Gorni Vakof, Vitez, in this area, and down to Mostar in this area.

9 When we arrived here, it was a big tension between the Croats up

10 in Vares and the Croats south of Vares. Even though they were

11 thought to be under the control of the Muslims up from Tuzla, but it

12 were tension, but the fighting had not spread up to Vares in

13 the beginning of October '93.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What number is that, Mr. Ostberg?

15 MR. OSTBERG: We are not going to tender that as an exhibit. We just have

16 it as assistance to

17 the witness statement, because we have no copies of it and I cannot

18 use it to give it as evidence to you. (To the witness): I think you

19 have satisfied us now on the military situation. Can you now tell us

20 on your of your own observations about what was going on in the area

21 of Vares in the end of October 1993, please?

22 A. Yes. As I said, we knew there were tension and in my first unit

23 which arrived into this area

24 were deployed down in Vares, north of Vares, on a camp which we took

25 over from Canadians. The first position we took up was on the border

Page 85

1 between the Croats and Muslims, west of Vares and after, I think it

2 was around 18th August, fightings broke out in this area two hours

3 after the position were deployed, and the Muslims launched an attack

4 on a small village called Kopijari. That was our first experience

5 down here. So we knew that there were big tension in this area.

6 During this time we were under deployment and we built up our

7 knowledge about this area, and on 23rd October I was in Kiseljak at the

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina command of the UN, and after lunch I had planned to go

9 back to Tuzla and I then had to go through Vares because that was only

10 possible road up. Then we got the message that it was not possible

11 because the fighting had spread, so the road was blocked, but after some

12 hesitation I got the message from one of my assistants that we could try

13 to get out.

14 We went off and come up to a village named Dabravine, some 30

15 kilometres south of Vares, where we were stopped again. We had the

16 permission to go further and after 10 kilometres more we stopped again,

17 this time by a Muslim patrol which said it was not possible to continue

18 because of heavy fighting and on the road there we found a dead farmer and

19 his cow. So I stopped and thought it was very unhealthy to go further

20 with the soft skin cars. We turned back down to Dabravine where I met the

21 commander, the Muslim commander, of the operational group south of Vares

22 and he told me that there had been an attack on the village of Stupni Do

23 from the Croats, and they just have started and planned a big attack at

24 the town of Vares as a revenge. We talked about it a little and I got him

25 with me on a plan that I could go up to Vares to see what had happened,

Page 86

1 see if there were any massacre or assault on the village of Stupni Do and

2 then came back to report.

3 So, I mounted a decision and we went on and it started to get

4 dark, and when we came just south of Vares we saw the sky lighted by

5 the burning village of Stupni Do. There was nothing to do there, so

6 we continued up north to my company commander and company camp. I

7 met my company commander, Major Birger, who just were on his way to

8 the Croat Brigade, the Bobovac Brigade grade, which had their

9 headquarter just some 200, 300 metres away from our own camp. He

10 told me that now there were a new brigade commander in the Bobovac

11 Brigade, a man named Ivica Rajic, and we came into the headquarters

12 and started to negotiate with Ivica Rajic and he said that he was a

13 commander of the operational group in Kiseljak and he now had taken

14 command of the Bobovac Brigade.

15 Q. Can you recall exactly how he introduced himself, the words he used?

16 A. Not exactly, but he was very clear that he was the new commander of

17 the Bobovac Brigade.

18 Q. He spoke what language?

19 A. He spoke Serbia Croatian.

20 Q. You had an interpreter?

21 A. I had an interpreter and that was Sergeant Ekenheim.

22 Q. Please go on.

23 A. We start to talk about what happened and I demanded to come into

24 Stupni Do as soon as possible and he said it was not possible. He

25 refused. I then told him the threat from the Muslims, that if I did

Page 87

1 not come into the town there would be a heavy attack on Vares, but he

2 still refused. But after some time he agreed on letting us in the

3 next day. So with that message, I went back to Dabravine, told the

4 commander of UG in Dabravine what Ivica Rajic had said, and he was

5 not satisfied with that. He demanded that I should go in this night.

6 So I went back up to Rajic, told him: "I want to come in this

7 night", but he still refused, and I then left with where I did not promise

8 not to go in, and then he was very upset because

9 he was not sure what we should do, and I got a very clear picture that he

10 knew exactly what then happened up in Stupni Do because there were still

11 fire, small armed fire and exclusion at that time in the night. He was

12 very anxious to stop us from coming into Stupni Do.

13 I went back to Dabravine once more that night and then

14 negotiated a cease fire until the next day to come into Stupni Do.

15 The next morning -----

16 Q. May I just jump in and ask you, did you pass any area where you

17 could have a look into Stupni Do so that could you see?

18 A. At that time, no, because it had been dark and there was a lot of

19 mines which hindered us to

20 go up or manoeuvre.

21 Q. Did you see any flames or things like that?

22 A. Yes, we saw the burning village, we saw the light from the burning

23 village in the night. So

24 in the morning we started an operation with two units going into

25 Stupni Do from two different directions. They were stopped rather

Page 88

1 early but after some struggle they came just in the vicinity of

2 Stupni Do, but were stopped by two Croat checkpoints with a mine,

3 mines over the road.

4 I and my company commander tried at the same time to manoeuvre

5 to a position where we could look into the valley and the village. I

6 managed to reach a position and before we went out we should have had

7 a meeting with Ivica Rajic, but he was then not on his headquarter,

8 as I were told. But when we stood on the hillside in Vares, I think

9 it was an engineering officer of the brigade, he came very angry and

10 said: "We are not supposed to

11 be here" because in that place we saw with the binocular just into

12 the village which was still burning. There were still some small

13 arms fire from the village.

14 Q. Could you see some people also?

15 A. No, it was too .....

16 Q. Too far away?

17 A. Yes. While he, the engineering officer, he then said that now Ivica

18 Rajic was in his headquarter and he wanted to speak with us. We went

19 back and then he said: "Well, I will let you in", and with that

20 promise in the afternoon on 24th October I left Vares and after

21 giving some my, intention to my company commander.

22 Q. You had just met Rajic again?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you something to tell us about that, from that meeting, if he

25 said something of what was going on or if he had some comments and

Page 89

1 things like that?

2 A. Yes, his comments not letting us into Stupni Do was that his

3 preparedness for the defence of Vares was more important than letting

4 us into Stupni Do. At the same time we also met soldiers or call

5 them extremists, or what you say, because he had a gang with

6 extremists from Kiseljak and Kakang with a map which was not regular

7 soldiers in this area.

8 Q. What exactly do you mean by "extremists"?

9 A. Well, not regular soldiers but more like gangsters with skin

10 clothing.

11 Q. Some kind of uniform?

12 A. Yes, black skin clothing and even from other stuff with knives, hand

13 grenades and guns.

14 Q. They were armed and they were -----

15 A. They were very heavy armed.

16 Q. No real uniform of the usual battle type?

17 A. No, you could not even find them as HVO soldiers.

18 Q. Thank you. Yes?

19 A. When I went back up to Tuzla, my company commander continued to act

20 down in Vares. On the evening, on Sunday evening, when I got back to

21 Tuzla, I got the message at, I think, 10 o'clock that my units down

22 in the town had been shot at by the Bobovac Brigade, a real attack

23 against the UN unit, and they drawback from the central town of

24 Vares. They had even attacked an ambulance very clearly marked with

25 a red cross. I gave

Page 90

1 a company commander permission to leave the town at that time, but to

2 defend the tunnel between the town and my company so we would not be

3 enclosed.

4 I also gave him an order to talk with the brigade commander,

5 Ivica Rajic, and tell him that from now we will always only have live

6 firing, no warning shots any more, and he did it. There was a lot of

7 shooting over the camp but not at the camp during this night. On the

8 morning I gave the company commander an order to deploy in central Vares

9 again. I went myself to on the Serb side to Zvornik where we had planned

10 negotiation with the Serbs.

11 When I came back late in the afternoon to my headquarter, I got

12 the message from my staff that my units in Vares has been forced to leave

13 central town again after a very heavy threat

14 from the Croats, and at that time we had another problem, and that was

15 about 250 Muslim men jailed up in the town into schools in central town.

16 We had deployed patrols outside these schools but they had been forced

17 away.

18 Then I ordered the company to redeploy in Tuzla but on safer --

19 in Vares but on safer spots outside and higher up so that they could look

20 in the town and still have control without any risk, and went off from

21 Tuzla to Vares. On the night, on 25th, I met Ivica Rajic again with my

22 company commander -- sorry, I did not met Ivica Rajic then, I met Bozic,

23 his second in command. He said: "I am now appointed Brigade Commander".

24 I asked: "Where is Ivica Rajic?" He did not tell me. He was back in

25 Kiseljak or something like that, he told me. He said everything is

Page 91

1 solved. The UNMO, UN concern, had been let into Stupni Do, and I did not

2 know about that, but my company commander told me that that was only

3 partly true. They had been let in by Ivica Rajic, but just to the first

4 two houses where they found, as I learned, two dead bodies and then Ivica

5 Rajic had stopped the visit in Stupni Do.

6 So I still demanded to came into Stupni Do and Bozic promised us

7 to come in, and we pointed a meeting at 9 o'clock in the morning and then

8 we should go into Stupni Do at 2 o'clock

9 p.m. and at the same time we should be let in to see the situation of the

10 prisoner in the town.

11 At that time we did not trust them at all, so we had already

12 planned for an action to take us into Stupni Do, whether the Croat allowed

13 us or not. So, 9 o'clock, I went to the Bobovac Brigade again. At the

14 same time I ordered two platoons to go towards Vares on two different

15 routes, one from the north and one from the west. When I came to the

16 Bobovac Brigade, as usual the brigade commander was not there, he was not

17 prepared to meet me, but I stuck to it and demanded to see him. After

18 some minutes he was there and they said: "Well, you are allowed to come

19 in but without gun and without machine gun of my interpreter", and I

20 denied, "If you do not want me, will let me in with guns then we can

21 negotiate here out".

22 After some time they let us in with weapons and then Bozic again

23 said we will be let in but not until 2 o'clock. So we waited, but

24 some minutes before 2 o'clock where we were at the Bobovac Brigade,

25 they backed again and said: "Well, we have to wait for the ECMM

Page 92

1 monitors to come in", but then I refused because I am still convinced

2 that they already had stopped them in some checkpoint that they

3 should not arrive, and with my threat then they stopped it and we

4 went away to Stupni Do.

5 Q. The last conversation you had when you were informed that the ECMM

6 were coming, who was that with?

7 A. That was with Bozic. At this time Ivica Rajic was not able, but

8 both on Monday night and now we had a very strong feeling he was in

9 the house, and after the meeting on Monday evening where Bozic had

10 been rather co-operative, after some hours we got a threat letter

11 from the same brigade that if we did not stop this we should be wiped

12 out from earth so that was always, first, they agreed and then they

13 stopped.

14 Q. I see.

15 A. We came up to the last checkpoints near Stupni Do, and I went with

16 my platoon which came in from the north. My military assistant,

17 Major Eckenheim, he had a patrol from NORDBAT and from the UNMOs,

18 from ECMM, which went to the schools, even I think with people from

19 Red Cross. When we arrived to the last checkpoint we were stopped

20 again, and they told us that, first, they would not let us in at all,

21 then I said: "I will go in".

22 They said: "Yes, but only with one vehicle" but they still refused

23 to remove the mines and then I said: "If you do not remove the mine,

24 I will shoot them away", and then they moved them off. I had

25 ordered my platoon commander which was behind me to come in half a

Page 93

1 metre behind very close together, all vehicles, so we then got in

2 very rapid with all four vehicles into Stupni Do.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. That happened about 3 o'clock p.m.

5 Q. On 25th?

6 A. On 26th.

7 Q. 26th?

8 A. Yes, on 25th, that was Monday. Then we still were refused to come

9 in.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. This was on 26th.

12 Q. And the attack was on 20 -----

13 A. 23rd.

14 Q. Now you tell the court about what you saw in Stupni Do when you went

15 in there?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Brigadier General, if I may ask you a few questions

17 before you get

18 to that point to see if I understand your testimony: on October 23rd

19 you were in Kiseljak-- pronounce it for me?

20 A. Kiseljak.

21 Q. And Kiseljak was controlled by the Bosnian Croats?

22 A. Yes, but UN headquarter of Bosnia was situated in Kiseljak and that

23 is where I were.

24 Q. That was controlled by whom?

25 A. The town of Kiseljak was controlled by the Croats, but the UN

Page 94

1 headquarter was under UN control.

2 Q. I understand. You learned first about the attack on Stupni Do from

3 a BiH commander?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He told you that the Bosnian Croats had attacked Stupni Do?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That would have been on 23rd or 24th when you learned?

8 A. 23rd.

9 Q. 23rd?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the Bobovac Brigade before Rajic?

12 A. Well, I do not have his name. I had met him, but in the testimony

13 from my company commander I think his name is in that.

14 Q. Pardon me?

15 A. I think the name are known by the Tribunal in the testimony from my

16 company commander.

17 Q. It is not really important. What is important, though, is that at

18 one point you were told that Rajic had taken over and was then the

19 commander, is that not so, of the Bobovac Brigade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that correct?

22 A. I learned that from my company commander on 23rd when I came up to

23 Vares about 6 o'clock p.m.

24 Q. And the Bobovac Brigade is regular Bosnian Croat army?

25 A. Yes.

Page 95

1 Q. They were based in Vares?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You testified that at one point you met Rajic and he had a gang of

4 extremists with him?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then you described these extremists as -- why do you not repeat that

7 for me tell me what you mean by "extremists"?

8 A. People with no conscience and dressed, well, if you see those

9 motorcycle bands, about that, with skin clothing, but with machine

10 guns, knives, hand grenades, pistols, with no common uniform, mainly

11 black clothing.

12 Q. Did they wear white bands on their arms or somewhere, do you know?

13 A. I cannot remember that just now.

14 Q. But they were dressed in black?

15 A. Yes, mainly.

16 Q. Carrying knives?

17 A. Mainly, yes.

18 Q. Knives? They did not look -----

19 A. Knives, machine guns and everything they could take.

20 Q. When you say Rajic had them with him, what do you mean by that?

21 A. They arrived at the same time as Rajic, and we got that information

22 both from our own observations, from our soldiers and even from the

23 HVO soldiers which was not very happy with this.

24 Q. Where did they arrive?

25 A. I do not know exactly, but they must have come over Serbian

Page 96

1 territory from Kiseljak.

2 Q. Where were they? When you say "they arrived", they arrived where,

3 at the checkpoint?

4 A. In the whole town of Vares, we had them. They moved around, but we

5 saw them often at the headquarter of the Bobovac Brigade, the same

6 men which we later met down in the town in checkpoints and so on, and

7 they were very aggressive and some of them sometimes said: "Well,

8 you are not allowed to come into Stupni Do because we have some

9 cleaning to do before".

10 Q. How do you know that commander Rajic was in charge of these

11 extremists?

12 A. Because he said it, very obvious and even -----

13 Q. What did he say?

14 A. He said he commanded the Bobovac Brigade. He had control over the

15 area and his headquarter was guarded by those guys. We saw the same

16 cars at this hotel which was their headquarter. I saw them inside

17 this restaurant which served as headquarter, and they were in the

18 restaurant part at the same time we negotiated in a part of this

19 restaurant. So they are jostling together. They did what he said to

20 them.

21 Q. Did you hear that?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Give me an example.

24 A. No, because he commanded them.

25 Q. OK. He commanded them, you say, because they were there in the

Page 97

1 headquarters and he had said that he was commander of the Bobovac

2 Brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They were there occupying the same place as the Bobovac Brigade; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you said that he had a gang of these extremists whom you had

8 seen in the Bobovac Brigade headquarters at a check point, is that

9 correct, with him?

10 A. At the checkpoint, not with Rajic.

11 Q. He was not there at that point?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. But they were the same ones ---

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- that you had seen at the Bobovac Brigade headquarters?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE VOHRAH: General, I have no knowledge of military matters. When you

18 talk of a brigade, how big a force would that be?

19 A. I cannot answer that question because all brigades down here is

20 different, but if I said it is something like in between 500 to 2,500

21 men, and I think the Bobovac brigades consisted of about 800 men, or

22 something like that.

23 Q. Then when you used the expression "extremists", you did not mean by

24 that people with any special political views? You described them in

25 terms of their dress?

Page 98

1 A. No, you can in this case only guess because we had no political

2 discussion about it.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So when you were at that checkpoint then, when you

4 saw these extremists that you have described -- I am looking at your

5 statement that is part of the material that was submitted to Judge

6 Sidhwa -- you say "the extremists said they had 'some cleansing to

7 do'"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall them saying that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you interpret that word?

12 A. From my interpreter, Sergeant Eckenheim.

13 Q. When you heard the word "cleansing" what did that mean to you?

14 A. It meant that they were, well, removing, whether they did burning,

15 perhaps, bodies and taking bodies away the evidence in Stupni Do.

16 That was what I thought was meant with their saying.

17 Q. That was on October 24th, the day after the attack on Stupni Do?

18 A. I remember not the exact day, yes.

19 Q. But it was after the attack?

20 A. Yes, it was after. I think it was on Monday, but I am not quite

21 sure.

22 Q. Did you later on October 26th speak with some refugees from Stupni

23 Do?

24 A. Not myself, but on 26th in the morning I had sent out a patrol to

25 pick up refugees from Stupni Do south of Vares, because the commander

Page 99

1 in Dabravine has asked us to do it because it was Croat controlled

2 area and he knew that there was about 30 refugees, he said, so I sent

3 my MA with some APCs, I think six in the morning, and they found 25

4 refugees which they brought down to Dabravine.

5 Q. Do you recall saying in the statement that you submitted that was a

6 part of the material presented to Judge Sidhwa that, "Two young

7 women stated that Stupni Do was attacked by regular fighting but in

8 the evening the 'butchers arrived' and there was burning, looting,

9 raping and killing. The two women both about 20 years old said that

10 they had been raped". Do you recall making that statement?

11 A. Yes, and I got that information from Major Ekberg who was in charge

12 of this operation. I got it in second-hand.

13 Q. OK. You do not know who these "butchers" were, do you, who were

14 identified as butchers?

15 A. No, not the exact person, but I am very sure that it was extremists

16 from Kiseljak and Kakang.

17 Q. The same extremists you described before ---

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- as having been at the Bobavac Brigade headquarters ---

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- is that correct, and then the ones you saw at the HVO check

22 point?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have nothing further at this time. You are moving

25 into another area, Mr. Ostberg?

Page 100

1 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you. (To the witness): What I would like you to

2 tell the court is what you actually saw when you more or less

3 forcibly entered Stupni Do with your platoon?

4 A. Yes, I saw a totally destroyed village. I think it was around 54

5 houses in that village, all of

6 them more or less destroyed. We rather soon run into dead people,

7 burnt bodies. We found three killed women in a cellar and I spent

8 about 30 minutes at that time in Stupni Do because I had to hurry up

9 to Dabravine to report to the UG to stop any further

10 attacks. So I then left Stupni Do after seeing enough. Then we sent

11 in two platoons which guarded Stupni Do until the investigation team

12 arrived.

13 Q. Did you walk through the whole village of Stupni Do?

14 A. Yes, not the whole, but mainly, the main part of the village I saw

15 directly.

16 Q. Yes, thank you. You can see from the map that this is one road

17 running through the village with houses on either side of the road?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you walked this main road through?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many houses did you enter?

22 A. I entered I think one, but we were very cautious here because it was

23 a big risk for

24 booby-traps; that is mines or something like that. So we waited for

25 a mine clearing team to come in.

Page 101

1 Q. When you said the houses were destroyed, by fire, by grenades, by

2 shooting, with other weapons, in what way?

3 A. They were so destroyed that it was hard to see after that short

4 examination, but mainly by fire and perhaps explosion brought in and

5 attached by people inside. But it was not mainly done by shelling;

6 it was by burning and perhaps explosives on the place.

7 Q. So, would you by that say that the houses were set on fire?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you any idea what kinds of methods they used to set them on

10 fire?

11 A. No. I can just guess.

12 Q. I recall you saying somewhere that you said some special colour of

13 smoke?

14 A. No. Well, I cannot recall that, but it was very heavy smoke in the

15 town, and I think then that the investigator was rather confused in

16 some aspects because it must have been a very high heat in some

17 houses.

18 Q. Did you see some people?

19 A. At that time, no, no people.

20 Q. Cattle?

21 A. Some cattle, yes.

22 Q. Living?

23 A. Living and hurt and dead cattle.

24 Q. All kinds: hurt, dead and living cattle?

25 A. Yes.

Page 102

1 Q. Can you estimate how many cows or sheep or whatever it was?

2 A. No, I did not count them, but it was something between zero and 10.

3 Q. You said that you entered at least one house. Did you find

4 something special?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you see any dead bodies in this house?

7 A. Not in the house, no. What I saw was I think two burned bodies

8 outside the houses, and then women in the cellar. That was what I

9 personally saw.

10 Q. But no people in the village; no refugees or somebody coming,

11 walking, civilians?

12 A. No, nothing.

13 Q. You talked about refugees being -- if I recall correctly ----

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. --- you said something about refugees?

16 A. Yes. On the morning of 26th we picked up 25 refugees south of

17 Stupni Do.

18 Q. Outside Stupni Do?

19 A. Outside Stupni Do, and they had fled Stupni Do when the assault was

20 launched.

21 Q. So they were coming down from the ----

22 A. From the hills.

23 Q. --- from the hills?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Outside Stupni Do?

Page 103

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you did not rescue any refugees inside Stupni Do?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You mentioned some other units. When you went in, were you the

5 first on the spot?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then what kind of a UN or other units did enter Stupni Do?

8 A. Well, behind me were one of my own platoons and when I left Stupni

9 Do the other way out I ordered another platoon which were blocked on

10 another mine, mine checkpoint, to go over the railway and join the

11 other platoon. So at about 16 hours I had two platoons up in Stupni

12 Do, and they stayed I think until 27th or 28th where we got

13 reinforcement from a British Company under Major Hunter because my

14 soldiers were then very worn out.

15 Q. Understandable. Will you, before I conclude my questioning,

16 summarise your meetings with Ivica Rajic? How many were they in

17 total?

18 A. They were I think four in total: two on the evening of 23rd and two

19 on Sunday 24th. On 25th it was Bozic who said, "I am the new Brigade

20 Commander", but my company commander had more meetings with Ivica

21 Rajic than I had.

22 Q. Do you think that another shift of Commander of the Bobovac Brigade

23 did take place, or did you believe what Bozic said, that he was now

24 the new commander?

25 A. No. I am convinced that we had Ivica Rajic in the rooms on the

Page 104

1 other side of the wall saying to Bozic what he should do. That is my

2 guess.

3 Q. Was there any hesitation in your mind of who was in charge of the

4 HVO forces during and after the raid of Stupni Do?

5 A. No.

6 Q. That was Ivica Rajic?

7 A. Yes. When we first met the first time we discussed a little about

8 what had happened, and the right to do it and so on, and he pointed

9 on his jacket where he had a black mark and said, "Do you know what

10 this is?" "No", I said. "Well, this is a sign of anybody who has

11 lost a close relative" or what he said, "so I have the right for

12 this." But it is ----

13 Q. How long did you stay in the area with your battalion?

14 A. You mean at all? I left ----

15 Q. After this, after this event, after the end of October, did you stay

16 on?

17 A. We left Bosnia at the end of, well, in the end of March, beginning

18 of April in '94.

19 Q. Have you any idea what happened to Ivica Rajic, where he went, after

20 the Stupni Do event?

21 A. Yes. We heard rumours or I would say it was more information from

22 BH Command in Kiseljak that he had been seen in Kiseljak and lived

23 down there, and perhaps still was the Commander of the unit in

24 Kiseljak.

25 Q. So he had his military command even after this?

Page 105

1 A. That is what I heard, but in that case I think BH Command can answer

2 better than I.

3 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. Thank you, General. I have no further

4 questions. Thank you, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Brigadier General Henricssion, you are

6 excused. Thank you for coming today.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 (The witness withdrew).

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Ostberg, would you call your next witness,

10 please.

11 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, we would be happy to proceed. Our next witness is

12 Sergeant Ekenheim also a Swedish soldier.


14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth

15 and nothing but the truth.

16 (The witness was sworn).

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honour.


20 MR. OSTBERG: Your name is Ruzdi Ekenheim?

21 A. That is correct, sir.

22 Q. Will you tell the court what you are doing, what occupation is for

23 the moment? What

24 do you do?

25 A. At the moment I am a sales rep.

Page 106

1 Q. A sales representative?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. OK. Will you give us a very short summary of your military

4 experience?

5 A. I served with the Swedish Army between 1988/89 as a conscript.

6 Further on I signed up again in 1992 to go to Yugoslavia.

7 Q. On a UN mission?

8 A. On a UN peacekeeping mission.

9 Q. With NORDBAT?

10 A. No. That was with a Swedish headquarters company that was

11 established from the beginning in Sarajevo and then moved to

12 Belgrade, then moved to Zagreb.

13 Q. This was which year did you say?

14 A. That was in September '92.

15 Q. '92.

16 A. Actually from 1st September.

17 Q. I see. Your service with the UN, as what were you hired?

18 A. I served as Assistant Interpreter, bodyguard and so on for first for

19 Brigadier General Pellnas [sic] who was chief UNMO. I served with him

20 for one year. Right after that I went to NORDBAT 2; same

21 occupation, I worked for Brigadier Henricsson.

22 Q. Interpreter and assistant?

23 A. And bodyguard.

24 Q. Bodyguard?

25 A. And so on.

Page 107

1 Q. Then with the rank as Sergeant as today or had you some other rank

2 then?

3 A. No, the same rank. I was made Second Lieutenant. I refused to

4 become an officer and moved back to Sergeant.

5 Q. I see. You said that you served as an interpreter. Will you tell

6 the court something about your lingual abilities?

7 A. I speak Serbo-Croatian, Serbian-Croatian Bosnian, whatever. I

8 understand Macedonian, Russian, German, English, Swedish.

9 Q. How come you speak so many languages? Tell us of your origin?

10 A. My origin?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I was born on July 11th 1967 in New York City, New York State,

13 United States of America.

14 Q. So?

15 A. My grandparents on my mother's side come from Sarajevo and Osijek in

16 Croatia. My biological father is from Montenegro. My mother was

17 born in Austria, raised in Argentina and lives in Sweden.

18 Q. You are certainly a real cocktail!

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. With your work with the UN it was important that you spoke

21 Serbian-Croatian and English of course?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Apart from Swedish.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me about your services with General Henricsson whom we have

Page 108

1 just listened to in this

2 court. When did you join him?

3 A. I started work for him on September 27th 1993. The first time I met

4 him was on the frontline in Kiseljak; North Eastern Bosnia.

5 Q. What date was that?

6 A. September 27th.

7 Q. 27th September?

8 A. I started working for him on 27th and I met him on 29th.

9 Q. And you stayed with Henricsson?

10 A. I stayed with him and his predecessor, Colonel Svensson who became

11 Battalion Commander after him, up until NORDBAT 2, up until July 15th

12 '94.

13 Q. Did you then quit your service?

14 A. Then I went back to Sweden and stayed there for eight weeks and got

15 assigned a new mission, to observe a mission in Serbia.

16 Q. And went on?

17 A. Until March 1st '95.

18 Q. OK. Then we know what you have been doing with the UN. Now we will

19 take you to the environment of Vares in October 1993. Tell me

20 exactly what were your duties there then in October 1993?

21 A. At that particular time around Stupni Do incident and Vares

22 incident, we had been down to Kiseljak, BH Command, and we went up to

23 visit the Canadian Battalion Headquarters. I was there accompanying

24 the Brigadier.

25 Q. Travelling with him in the same ----

Page 109

1 A. Travelling with him.

2 Q. --- in the same vehicle?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Did you do the driving also?

5 A. No, not at the moment.

6 Q. Tell us which day will you say this was going when you travelled

7 like you said?

8 A. I am pretty bad on dates, so I would say this is day one of the

9 events.

10 Q. OK. We have fixed 23rd October for the event of Stupni Do.

11 A. That it is the 23rd October.

12 Q. Then I will ask you to tell me when you first did any observation

13 pertaining to the village of Stupni Do?

14 A. The first observation was when we were supposed to leave the

15 Canadian camp in Viseko.

16 Q. In Viseko?

17 A. In Viseko south of the Vares area, north of Viseko. We bumped into

18 some observers, UNMOs, who told us that the road ahead was blocked.

19 I received orders from the Brigadier to go up north through the road

20 to see what was going on and see if the road real was blocked. I

21 came up to a village called Simin Han, that is Simin Han, Pajtov Han,

22 that is about 7 klicks south of Vares.

23 When I got up there and I noticed there was a combat zone ahead

24 of me, I contacted the nearest Bosnian Army Headquarters to find out

25 what was going on, and if we could pass through the area. At first

Page 110

1 we were denied because the combat zone moved south of my own location

2 eventually. I started arguing with them, but finally got ahead to

3 go. Went back to Kiseljak, picked up the Brigadier and a convoy that

4 was standing there.

5 Q. When you made this trip was that on your own or were you travelling

6 with someone else in

7 the car?

8 A. I had a Swedish observer with me at that time.

9 Q. In the car?

10 A. Yes, sir, but that was myself from the Unit. I went back, picked up

11 the Brigadier, the convoy. We came up to this village again and was

12 stopped because the fighting had intensified along the road. At

13 first we were denied clearance to go through. We got the clearance,

14 moved ahead about another 3 klicks. If you do not understand what I

15 am saying "klicks"?

16 Q. We do not. Please explain?

17 A. "Klicks" is kilometres.

18 Q. Now we know. Klicks.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If I told you I do not know what a kilometre is, how

20 do you translate that? I am learning though!

21 THE WITNESS: A kilometre is about a thousand yards; maybe a bit less than

22 that. About 14, 1500 yards. Is that right?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It sounds good to me!

24 MR. OSTBERG: I am not used to yards! Ten kilometres is 6.2 miles I am

25 informed from my American friend here.

Page 111


2 MR. OSTBERG: Now we know. Use the term "kilometre" for my understanding.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So I know what you are talking about.

5 A. Then we were stopped again at another check point, the whole convoy,

6 and we refused to go further on. Fighting was about 150, 200 metres

7 ahead of us intensifying. There was a dead man by the road, a dead

8 cow. Some mortar grenade had just exploded there about two minutes

9 before our arrival. After a couple of minutes the Brigadier decided

10 to turn back the convoy and switch men and vehicles. So we left them

11 with our unarmed vehicle and took on a Sisu, that is a normal APC.

12 We got the clearance again from the Bosnians and then we got the

13 first brief, the first part of second briefing about what was going

14 on in the area.

15 Q. Who briefed whom?

16 A. The Bosnians briefed us.

17 Q. "Us" was?

18 A. Me and the Brigadier.

19 Q. You did the interpretation?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Fine.

22 A. They told us that the Croats had attacked the village of Stupni Do

23 and that the fighting going

24 on along the road was the Bosnian attempt to come to rescue the

25 village. They begged us to

Page 112

1 start an investigation and try to do what we could to stop the

2 ongoing events, which we did.

3 Q. Can you describe the ongoing events,? What did you observe of these

4 ongoing events?

5 A. May I ----

6 Q. No, I do not think you have to use the map. Tell us about what you

7 saw of what was going on in Stupni Do?

8 A. From that point we could not see Stupni Do because that was on the

9 other side of the hill, but you could clearly see the smoke, the fire

10 because it was becoming dark.

11 Q. Could you hear some shooting?

12 A. You could hear shelling, the firing, more explosions, normal war

13 zone sounds.

14 Q. That is what you mean by the ongoing event?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You saw smoke, you heard firing, you heard explosions and things

17 like that?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Please go on.

20 A. Naturally the Brigadier promised to do whatever he could to look

21 into what was going on. So then we passed through the Bosnian

22 checkpoints on the way up to Vares, and there was I would say total

23 emptiness along the road. The houses along the side were burning and

24 we could see the village of Stupni Do burning in the distance. It

25 was quite dark at that time.

Page 113

1 We got up to our Company headquarters. First on the way up we

2 passed a Croat checkpoint. We got up to Eighth Corps Headquarters

3 Camp and got another briefing from them what was going on in the area

4 which was almost the same thing as the Bosnian Croats. Instantly the

5 Brigadier demanded a meeting with the Commander of the Bobovac

6 Brigade who was Ivica Rajic. Later on during the evening we got the

7 meeting.

8 Q. You met him then?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You did the interpretation between these two gentlemen, Rajic and

11 Brigadier Henricsson?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. OK.

14 A. Eventually ----

15 Q. Tell the court -- what we have heard so far in this court today is

16 what you interpreted. So tell us now again how did Rajic introduce

17 himself?

18 A. He introduced himself as Ivica Rajic, Commander of the Bobavac

19 Brigade. He recently replaced the old Brigade Commander and he said

20 he was from a Special Police Unit from Kiseljak.

21 Q. That was the way he introduced himself?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Thank you. Please go on?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He said he was in charge of Special Police?

25 A. He was from a special police unit Kiseljak.

Page 114

1 Q. Do you know what that Special Police Unit was?

2 A. Sorry, your Honour. They call everything "police", everything

3 "Special Forces", "Special Police". The definition of "Special

4 Forces", "Special Police" in Bosnia is very wide.


6 THE WITNESS: The Brigadier asked to get the information from their point

7 of view, what was going on in and around the Stupni Do area. We were

8 told that he thought, he knew actually, that the Bosnian Army was

9 going to launch a major attack over the village of Stupni Do, that

10 they had assembled a large quantity of soldiers, equipment and so on

11 south of the village. That was naturally false.

12 Q. How did the Brigadier General react to this information?

13 A. He said it was bullshit.

14 Q. Clear enough. Please go on.

15 A. Because there would not be such as that in the area. Since we had

16 just arrived from south of Vares to Stupni Do we had been eyewitness

17 to what was happening along the road. Ivica Rajic continued to say

18 that we have the right information, this is some intelligence,

19 Special Forces intelligence again and stuff like that. The Brigadier

20 said: "This is not right. We have the proper information. There is

21 no attack going on here and we demand that we have a ceasefire right

22 away." First Rajic agreed upon that, to have a ceasefire, then he

23 changed his mind again and said that there would be no ceasefire.

24 After a couple of arguments he agreed to having a ceasefire later on

25 the same night, but then demanded that we go to the Bosnians and get

Page 115

1 a ceasefire from their side and have them stop any major attack over

2 Stupni Do. The Brigadier approved of this. We went back to the

3 Bosnians and they did not have any major attack ongoing. They were

4 just curious to know what was happening with the people, civilians in

5 Stupni Do, since there were no military installations, no military at

6 all; it was just a village.

7 Q. OK.

8 A. So they actually agreed right away to have the ceasefire. We went

9 back, supposed to go back up to the Croats in the Bobovac Brigade to

10 deliver the message. On the way up we got stopped at an HVO

11 checkpoint. After a minute, a minute and a half, we smashed the

12 checkpoint. We went further up a couple of klicks where we met, came

13 up to another checkpoint.

14 Q. Again "kilometres"?

15 A. Kilometres, sorry, where we came to another checkpoint. We got

16 stopped again. This time they put mines in front of us. They said we

17 had no authorisation to pass up to Vares through a checkpoint, and

18 the only person who could give us that permission was Ivica Rajic.

19 He was not present at the time. The Brigadier got pissed and said:

20 "We have to get through here. Either you move the mines or we will

21 do the results." They got the in touch

22 with the headquarters and again said, "No, you can't pass." So me and

23 the Brigadier jumped out of the APC and we moved the mines ourselves.

24 Then we went back into the APC, went up to Bobovac Brigade

25 Headquarters and met Ivica Rajic, told him that the Bosnians have

Page 116

1 agreed upon the ceasefire, they have no major, no attacks whatsoever

2 that is ongoing or imminent. He did not believe it at first and then

3 he said "OK, ceasefire". Then we started arguing about the time of

4 the ceasefire.

5 We want an immediate ceasefire; they want it the next day. Then we

6 started discussing what the details of the ceasefire. They wanted us

7 to set up soldiers from our own unit in the village of Stupni Do; the

8 best case being in Stupni Do with their own vehicles. First, Ivica

9 Rajic agreed upon that. Then he changed his mind and said "No". The

10 next suggestion was that we should go up in our APCs to the beginning

11 of the village on the northern side; park our vehicles there and put

12 the civilians in there; have them walking out

13 from other buildings from the same village, walk them up to our APCs

14 and then take them inside. It was dark; it was in the middle of the

15 night. We refused, the Brigadier refused, because that would have

16 been a suicide mission. The impression we had that is what they

17 were waiting for.

18 Q. On the evening of the first day?

19 A. The evening of the first night; the first day.

20 Q. Then? Then we turn to the next morning?

21 A. We are not done yet.

22 Q. You are not done yet?

23 A. We are not done yet. Then we started arguing with him about that

24 and he went berserk, upset, I should say, he did not want to continue

25 the meeting. So we went back to the Bosnians to inform them what was

Page 117

1 going on and how far they had gotten. When we went back to the

2 Bosnians they were kind of hysterical because they were receiving

3 more information about what was going on in Stupni Do. The

4 information we received that there was slaughtering of civilians.

5 That was about 3 o'clock, 3.30 in the morning. There

6 was not much else we could do at that time.

7 At the same time we received information from the local

8 commander that there was a group of refugees on a hill across the

9 graveyard on the way up to Vares, and he asked us to do what we could to

10 save them. The Brigadier immediately responded to this first in the

11 morning, daylight. We came back to the camp at 4 o'clock in the morning.

12 At 6 o'clock I was ordered to go back and do a search and rescue mission.

13 We went out with four APCs to the approximate area where we understood

14 the refugees were available at. We blocked the road in both vans, start

15 screaming and shouting and making sounds to get the attention of the

16 refugees.

17 After a while, about an hour, nobody came down. Two Croatian

18 soldiers came down from the other side, HVO. We took them under

19 protective custody. At the same time the refugees were coming down

20 from the mountain. They were falling down from the hill, falling

21 down into the river. We picked them up from our side, put them in

22 the APCs and went back to Simin Han, south of Vares in the area.

23 Q. How many were there?

24 A. There were 19. The youngest was about five, a girl, and the oldest

25 was about 85 years old,

Page 118

1 a man. When that was done we came down to the village and dropped

2 off the refugees. Me and Major Ekberg was in charge of the search

3 and rescue unit went in to interrogate some of the refugees. We

4 picked one girl to talk to her. She told us her story -- do you want

5 me to go into that?

6 Q. Just an outline. Did you interpret the interview that Ekberg, the

7 Major, had?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Summarise what you learnt?

10 A. She got caught up by HVO soldiers, forced into a house, with the

11 first rape in front of her family's eyes, her dad, her ma, her

12 brother and boyfriend, and they told them, "One sound from you while

13 this is ongoing we're going to shoot you." After that they raped

14 her, they raped her and then this happened. Then they killed her

15 family one by one, telling her "If you cry one tear we're going to

16 shoot you. That was done to force her and a group of 13 people into

17 a building, a house, sit there, house on flames.

18 Q. With the people in it?

19 A. With the people lying in it. They found an axe in the house and got

20 out, started running to the hills, to the wood. The Croats were

21 following them in the woods. There was a lot of people running

22 around in the woods at that time. They could hear the Croats

23 following them in the woods, finding people here and shooting them on

24 the spot.

25 Q. How many people did you interview?

Page 119

1 A. Two.

2 Q. Two. What you now told us was the story of the girl?

3 A. Yes. There were two girls actually. We started interviewing the

4 second one but we could not interview her because she broke up.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In your statement did you say that they raped her

6 mother as well?

7 A. No.

8 MR. OSTBERG: So that was these two interviews you took part in?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Two out of 19 people that you rescued from the hills?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Then you might go on.

13 A. Then we went back up, supposed to go back up to Vares, and we came

14 to first major checkpoint, got stopped, smashed it, continued up to

15 Vares. When we went to Vares, Maradam, that is the southern part of

16 Vares, we got blocked in a major checkpoint which was hastily set up

17 by Croatian Military Police, Croatian Units that was taking part in

18 the ongoing events. So we got stopped there. They started placing

19 people, RPGs, machine guns anti-aircraft guns in front of us and we

20 were not allowed to move either backwards or forwards. I jumped out

21 of APCs and started talking, and negotiating with them, but it was a

22 dead end.

23 Then we radioed to headquarters and asked them to get Brigadier

24 Henricsson to go to Bobovac Brigade and start negotiating with them,

25 which he did. While we were waiting for the outcome of this meeting

Page 120

1 we were naturally getting ready for combat. After 40 minutes, 45

2 minutes, a guy comes up in a white Volkswagen Golf, starts screaming

3 and shouting and threatening us, if we do not leave his city he is

4 going to kill us. Then he wants to start beating me up with an RPG.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Beating you up with a what?

6 A. RPG?

7 MR. OSTBERG: What is that?

8 A. That is a grenade launcher, anti-tank.

9 Q. What is that ----

10 A. It is about 90 centimetres long. The calibre is 76 millimetres.

11 He puts it on his shoulder, blasts it off and there goes the tank.

12 Q. To beat you with?

13 A. Yes.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was he hitting you with it or threatening?

15 A. He was attempting to do it, but the other HVO soldier at the point

16 stopped him.

17 MR. OSTBERG: So were you never beaten?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You were threatened?

20 A. Yes. At this time because two police officers at the scene, they

21 were from Vares themselves, so I overheard one of them telling the

22 other one: "If he doesn't stop within five seconds I am going to

23 shoot him myself. I don't want to lose my life because of an idiot."

24 So he was speaking of this HVO soldier. So he just jumps into his

25 car and drives off. A couple of minutes later Brigadier Henricsson

Page 121

1 and I think it was Chief of Staff or something at Bobovac Brigade

2 came to the scene. We went back to Bobovac brigade to talk to Ivica

3 Rajic and negotiate with him about entering the village of Stupni Do.

4 At first he was not there. We went back to the camp, came back, he

5 showed up.

6 So at this point I think he agreed upon to letting us into the

7 village later on the same afternoon. This is day two. We were

8 supposed to meet him in the morning under -- no, that is wrong. That

9 is another day. They were supposed to take us in. He never showed

10 up. We went to Bobovac Headquarters to see his whereabouts and we

11 got the answer he was in the field, that is it.

12 Q. So you did not meet him at that time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You did not. OK.

15 A. We went back into Vares trying to get on high ground so we could see

16 into the village of Stupni Do, because there was so much smoke at the

17 time coming from the village it was impossible to stand close and

18 watch it. You could not see anything. During this attempt to come up

19 from high ground we were kind of chased up by two HVO Croat soldiers

20 who

21 asked us to leave, "You're not supposed to seeing anything." Then we

22 went back to the camp and got a new meeting with Ivica Rajic. Then

23 he agreed to let us in the village later

24 on again at the night and we said, "Thanks, but no thanks." We

25 suggested another time while it was still daylight. He refused. On

Page 122

1 several occasions during these discussions there was some tense

2 feeling, and Ivica Rajic clearly stated on several occasions, I have

3 to

4 say this in Serbian, if you do not mind? He says: "Ja sam chef ovu

5 parade" which means, "I am in charge of this parade." That is a

6 Yugoslavian expression.

7 Q. For being in charge of something going on?

8 A. Yes. It means we could not tell him what to do as well. Right after

9 that we came back to the camp. Now it was almost night time. There

10 was nothing we could do. Then we decided to -- the meeting had

11 agreed upon to let us into the village at 8 o'clock the next morning,

12 the third morning, and we were supposed to have a rendezvous south of

13 Vares, Vares Majdan is the name of the place under the railway bridge

14 where Ivica Rajic himself would escort us up to the village. We

15 showed up. No Rajic. We went back up to Bobovac Brigade

16 Headquarters. He was still in the field. Nobody knew where he was

17 at.

18 They had no means of contacting him. We went back trying to get into

19 the village from different sides which was impassable because they

20 sealed off the village effectively.

21 Later on we went back again to the Bobovac Brigade Headquarters,

22 found Ivica Rajic and he then agreed upon to let us in immediately to

23 the village but only one vehicle and it was supposed to be the

24 Brigadier. We were to be escorted.

25 Q. You were in the same car?

Page 123

1 A. Yes, sir. Then we were to be escorted by his own troops. When we

2 came up to checkpoint, the last checkpoint before the village, the

3 person at the checkpoint refused to clear the mines in front of us.

4 They told the security officer who was the man who followed us up

5 there, they did not take any orders from him; they only took orders

6 from Ivica Rajic. I was present at the scene when that happened,

7 when they said that. Right after that I started arguing with the

8 security, chief of security since he was only supposed to let one

9 vehicle, one APC, the Commander's APC.

10 Q. An APC is a car to transport people?

11 A. Yes, an armoured vehicle.

12 Q. How many people can be in it?

13 A. If you pack them real good 25.

14 Q. 25 at the most?

15 A. If you pack them real good, but they are made for about 12 I think,

16 excluding the crew.

17 Q. The crew is how many?

18 A. Four people.

19 Q. Thank you. OK.

20 A. So that was the first vehicle and only vehicle they were supposed to

21 let in. So then started moving, we moved the mines, and then the

22 second APC came up to so close to the Commander's APC that there was

23 no chance for them to separate the vehicles. Then the whole platoon

24 moved into the village.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before you get to another line of questioning, Mr.

Page 124

1 Ostberg, we will stand in recess for 15 minutes, please.

2 (The hearing adjourned for a short time)

3 4.25 p.m.



6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may continue.

7 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you.

8 We now enter Stupni Do, and would you please tell us about what

9 you saw when you entered there? Tell us first of all, the whole

10 platoon, did I get that clear, the whole platoon went in?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. How many vehicles?

13 A. Our guess was about eight to 10 vehicles.

14 Q. Eight to 10 vehicles?

15 A. Somewhere there.

16 Q. How many people are we talking about?

17 A. About 35, 40, 50 people.

18 Q. Yes. Were you in the first vehicle?

19 A. I was in the first vehicle.

20 Q. With Brigadier Henricsson?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Then tell us exactly what you yourself saw and what you did when you

23 entered Stupni Do?

24 A. The first thing I did was to start searching the first house on the

25 left side to see if there was anybody in there, checking for booby

Page 125

1 traps and stuff like that which they normally set out, bury down and

2 things like this.

3 Q. Give us an idea of what is a booby trap?

4 A. A booby trap is, let us say, hidden explosives which explode by

5 movement, by sound which

6 is devised to explode if somebody touches, let say, body part or

7 something else.

8 Q. To prevent people to touch things?

9 A. They want to kill you with that thing.

10 Q. If you do you are killed?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Please go on.

13 A. It is just like mines. Started searching the first house for

14 survivors and booby traps. We did not find anything there. So then

15 we just kind of started walking down the village, searching each

16 house on the side. After a couple of metres, let us say 10 to 15

17 metres, we found the first place where they burned somebody. It was

18 just a pile of ashes on the road.

19 Q. A former human being?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. As ashes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All burnt and you could identify it?

24 A. No, there were ashes.

25 Q. You could see that it had been once a human being?

Page 126

1 A. Yes, sir. The next I would say another 10, 15 metres down the road

2 there was another burnt man that was laying in a ruin of an ex-house.

3 He was booby trapped by himself. He

4 had hand grenade in his armpit. That one was pretty badly damaged

5 because a lot of wild dogs had been eating him the previous days.

6 Then we were kind of in the middle of the village and started

7 searching house by house. We found three women in a basement killed.

8 Another man was lying outside in I would say in the ruins of another

9 house.

10 Q. I understand that you got out of your car and did all these things,

11 you are now telling us, on

12 foot?

13 A. Yes, sir. Then I started kind of searching house by house together

14 with the rest of the unit, and all in all we found about 15 dead

15 people in the village. Right after this we had another unit waiting

16 on the first rendezvous point, south of Stupni Do, on the railway

17 bridge. So the Brigadier decided to go down with the APC to that

18 point and bring them up. So he went away with the APC say on the

19 northern road which leads down to the south ----

20 Q. Down to the south?

21 A. South of Vares to meet up with the APC unit down there. I decided to

22 walk the whole village and through, let us say, bits, pieces of the

23 forest by myself to see if I could find something along the road,

24 either bodies, corpses or booby traps, mines.

25 Q. Were you now out of the main street of Stupni Do?

Page 127

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Was it on or outside?

3 A. Outside the main street of Stupni Do.

4 Q. OK. On the back side of a line of houses or something like that?

5 A. There were no houses in between Stupni Do and Vares.

6 Q. OK.

7 A. At that point I came down to the rendezvous point, about the same

8 time as the Brigadier did, and there were two HVO soldiers guarding

9 the road. They placed mines in front of the same railway track.

10 The Commander told them to remove the mines so we could pass up to

11 the village. They refused. Said: "We can only take orders from

12 Ivica Rajic." The Commander said that they should be stupid because

13 we were already in the village. They could see our vehicles in the

14 village. We came from the village.

15 Q. You went out in the other direction and then you had people going in

16 from the other direction?

17 A. We came from northern side, passed through the village, down through

18 the southern side where we met up down in Vares.

19 Q. They would not let you in from the southern side?

20 A. No.

21 Q. OK.

22 A. Because the last orders they had received from Ivica Rajic was to

23 not let us in to Stupni Do. We just told them that this was just

24 stupid because we were already in the village. If they turned around

25 they would see our vehicles in the village, and we obviously came

Page 128

1 from the village. They still refused. The Brigadier got kind of fed

2 up with the situation and ordered the APCs to pass over the railway

3 tracks which they did and then drove up to the village. The two HVO

4 soldiers were kind of stupid just standing there and guarding

5 nothing, so they just packed up and left.

6 Q. That means that the forces of your battalion entered from two

7 different directions?

8 A. Eventually, yes.

9 Q. Eventually, into the village. Are there other things you can tell

10 us about your observations in Stupni Do? You were telling us about

11 15 dead people, burnt people. The two burnt you found at the

12 beginning are they included in the 15?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Tell us something about the houses? Were they burnt or shot at or

15 exploded?

16 A. They were exploded. It was just ruins.

17 Q. Was there any building in the city left unhurt?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you see any living person or living animal there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No living animal either?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you see many dead animals?

24 A. Yes, there were dead animals on the, let us say, fields, on the

25 road, among the houses. Everything was killed.

Page 129

1 Q. Killed, shot?

2 A. Shot, burnt, sliced up throats, whatever you want to call it.

3 Q. So there were no living creatures of any kind left in Stupni Do

4 after the attack?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Thank you. I would like you to sum up for the court how many

7 meetings you did have with the accused in this case, Ivica Rajic.

8 How many times did you meet him?

9 A. I met him on six to eight occasions.

10 Q. Six to eight?

11 A. Yes, at least.

12 Q. Even when Brigadier Henricsson was not with you, you met him even

13 alone?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No, always with him and to interpret for him?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Not for any other Commander or Officer?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. You estimated six to eight ----

20 A. Times.

21 Q. --- times. OK. Is there any question in your mind who was the

22 Commanding Officer?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. No nothing?

25 A. No, sir.

Page 130

1 Q. OK. Fine. I will ask you one concluding question pertaining to the

2 question of the classification of the conflict, and that is: did you

3 in your duties as an interpreter or in any other context make any

4 observation to the involvement of the Croatian Army or the Croatian

5 State in the HVO?

6 A. Do you mean particularly in this case or in total?

7 Q. Well, you can take it generally.

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Like what?

10 A. One example is, that has to be in spring time '93, we were in a

11 village called Trevinja that is western Bosnia, Serb held, on a

12 meeting with the Commander of that area on the Serb side.

13 Q. Who were you accompanying then?

14 A. Brigadier General Pellnas [sic]. They clearly stated that Croatian

15 Army had gone in about 3 or 4 kilometres into Bosnia on the north

16 eastern side of Dubrovnik in order to prevent the Serbs from shelling

17 the Dubrovnik area. That was then confirmed by the Croatian Army

18 Liaison Officer in Dubrovnik.

19 Q. Did you experience this in your capacity of an interpreter?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Have you any more examples?

22 A. The next one is the latest, one of the latest offences made by the

23 Croatian Army in it has to

24 be summer '94 I think when they took a part of the area around Mostar

25 and helped out the Bosnian troops in Bihac area. At that time the

Page 131

1 Croatian Army troop unit ----

2 Q. The Croatian?

3 A. Army unit moved into a city village called Kuplitz. On the TV shots

4 from those scenes you

5 could see insignias of Croatian Army units.

6 Q. That is in Bosnia?

7 A. That is in Bosnia.

8 Q. I recall from your statement that you had some experience to help

9 some tanks be permitted to cross the border from Croatia into Bosnia?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Could you tell us about that?

12 A. That was a tank company from NORDBAT 2 who was supposed to go to our

13 deployment area in Northern Bosnia which I was told by the UN had

14 sold out by the UN as well. So we had take to them from Serbia down

15 to via Hungary, Italy, down to Split.

16 Q. All around Bosnia?

17 A. All around ex Yugoslavia. They were a couple of months late, about

18 four or five month late in the theatre. My task was to go down to

19 Split, pick up this company of tanks together with the Mechanized

20 Infantry company and guide them through Bosnia and make sure they got

21 through checkpoints, up to the deployment area, area of

22 responsibility for the battalion. I had in my hand a piece of paper

23 signed by it was Deputy Minister of Interior in Croatia stating that

24 the Croats should just leave these tanks alone and let them pass.

25 However, then the UN forbid us to bring up the tanks to Bosnia. The

Page 132

1 explanation from Mr. Kirshee was that the Croats had made some

2 problems with that. That is not true. I had the paper in my hand.

3 So the Mechanized Infantry company came up to Tuzla

4 and the tanks company had to stay on at Split for another couple, two

5 months I think.

6 Q. Then what happened?

7 A. Then I went back up to -- that is all in January/February '94. Then

8 I had to go back up to my unit to the Brigadier, and after two weeks

9 I was sent to Mount Igman; one of the companies got the task to go to

10 Mount Igman in Sarajevo and reinforce that when NATO this no fly

11 zone, and no shelling, safe areas of Sarajevo.

12 Q. You tell us now that has anything to do with the HVO or Croatian

13 involvement in Bosnia?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No. So we have no more examples from that kind of thing like HVO

16 involvement?

17 A. It should be Mostar in Spring '93.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I was present with Brigadier Pellnas [sic] in Mostar in '93, and

20 there was some fighting going on. The fighting had just started in

21 Mostar. We were present there and there was some contact between

22 Zagreb to Mostar on HV side, on HVO side, to get them to start a

23 ceasefire. They were more or less taking orders from Zagreb.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. I was in the meeting rooms when this took place. When they called

Page 133

1 they would say to Zagreb. I saw the number they were dialling, the

2 area code, whatever.

3 Q. You could hear the conversation?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. You understood the conversation?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. There is no question that it was in contact with Zagreb on these

8 matters?

9 A. No, sir. I also met General Rosso.

10 Q. General?

11 A. Rosso in Zagreb, the Ministry of Defence. If he is not fighting

12 with them he has got nothing to do there.

13 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. I have no further questions.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I have one question. I listened to I think

15 four instances or four examples that you gave us that you believe

16 support your opinion that Croatia was involved in the conflict.

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. Is that correct? I did have may hair cut about a few weeks ago!

19 The one you mentioned was in, is it Trevinja?

20 A. Trevinja.

21 Q. Where is that located in comparison to Vares? It is on the coast

22 almost?

23 A. It is inside of the coast.

24 Q. It is a good distance, is it not, from Vares?

25 A. It is down here, Trevinja, and you have Vares up here.

Page 134

1 Q. Do you have any evidence that Croatia was involved in the area of

2 the conflict that was going on in Vares and Stupni Do?

3 A. There were insignias of some of the troops in the Vares area, was a

4 Croatian Army unit.

5 Q. Is that HV?

6 A. HV.

7 Q. You saw those insignias?

8 A. Yes, ma'am.

9 Q. They were inside Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. They were right in here.

11 Q. In Vares? Pardon me?

12 A. They were right there, here, the middle of Bosnia.

13 Q. Is that Vares you are pointing to?

14 A. That is Vares.

15 Q. Pardon me?

16 A. That is Vares.

17 Q. When was this that you saw them?

18 A. That was during those events among Stupni Do and Vares, escalation

19 later on, about a week later on.

20 Q. Did you see them ever with Rajic in his presence?

21 A. Maybe not as a unit. You could see one or two soldiers sitting in

22 the dining room because the place of the whole meeting room was about

23 6 metres, 7 metres away from their dining

24 room.

25 Q. And was the dining room in the Bobovac Headquarters?

Page 135

1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. So you would see HV soldiers, that is soldiers in Croatian uniform,

3 in the Bobovac Headquarters?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. During the time of the Stupni Do matter?

6 A. Yes, ma'am. I do not know if I can say this, but to move around

7 about 250 troops in and out through Vares, you cannot do that if you

8 do not have the permission of Serbs on the other side. You cannot

9 get the Serbs to agree upon that without Mladic knowing it and Mladic

10 has in that case a deal with the Croats.

11 Q. That is because to go from Vares and from Kiseljak?

12 A. Kiseljak.

13 Q. I am having difficulty -- to Stupni Do, you are saying that you

14 would have to go through, you would have to have gone in October 1993

15 through Serbian controlled areas?

16 A. If you do not go through the Bosnian government controlled areas,

17 and they will not let through 250 HVO troops.

18 Q. Obviously. So the only other way would be to go through Serbian,

19 Bosnian-Serbian held territories?

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. That could only have been with the permission of them?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Q. You are saying that that kind of permission would have to come from

24 someone pretty high up in the Bosnian Serbian Army?

25 A. Mladic at least. Nobody else.

Page 136

1 Q. If the troops then came from, the HVO troops, came from Vares or

2 Kiseljak to Stupni Do, then they would have to have come through

3 Bosnian-Serbian controlled areas?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. OK. It is your information that they did come from Kiseljak?

6 A. There was no other place to come from.

7 Q. Why is that? There was no other ----

8 A. From a transport location.

9 Q. Tell me again?

10 A. From a transport point of view. But if you mean were the units

11 actually came from the beginning?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I was told that the units during the massacre in Stupni Do was HVO

14 Kakanj. They came out of Kiseljak to Stupni Do. The unit originally

15 came from Kakanj.

16 Q. Spell that for me?

17 A. K-A-K-A-N-J. That is just next to Vares up there. You have Vares

18 there and Kakanj right there.

19 Q. So they came from Kakanj?

20 A. To Kiseljak.

21 Q. To Kiseljak and then from there where?

22 A. To Vares.

23 Q. And from Vares to Stupni Do?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How do you know that?

Page 137

1 A. I talked to them.

2 Q. Who told you that?

3 A. A soldier, just major soldier.

4 Q. That was a BIH soldier?

5 A. HVO.

6 Q. HVO.

7 A. And also the girl that was raped and picked up by us on the search

8 and rescue mission which I interrogated, she recognised some of those

9 people from Kakanj. I then later on talked to the two soldiers that

10 were guarding the mines under the railway bridge who also admitted it

11 was HVO from Kakanj. That is the name of the unit, Kamar Kakanj.

12 Then had deployed during the war whatsoever to Kiseljak especially

13 for this action was brought

14 to the Vares area of Stupni Do.

15 Q. Now these soldiers who came originally then would not have

16 originally been part of the Bobovac Brigade, is that so?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So they were borrowed, so to speak?

19 A. They were brought in specially for one thing.

20 Q. To do what?

21 A. To wipe out Stupni Do.

22 Q. You at one point went to the Bobovac Brigade officer, did you not,

23 or headquarters and saw a number of soldiers there who were dressed

24 and ready for combat?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

Page 138

1 Q. Would you explain when that was approximately? What were they

2 dressed like and did you draw any conclusions about whether they were

3 combat ready or not based on their dress?

4 A. The normal uniform with HVO and Bosnian Army is they just put on

5 anything they can get hold of. Camouflage or black is number one

6 colours. When they get ready to do combats, they put on a small

7 ribbon on the shoulder. It could be white, purple, any colour

8 that just is the colour of the day for everybody.

9 Q. The colour of the day for everyone?

10 A. So they recognised each other because the two armies use the same

11 uniform.

12 Q. So they know each other. That helps ----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. --- does not it? OK.

15 A. I would say if they start arming up a little bit more heavy, they

16 got on this shoulder strap, they can see they are getting ready for

17 combat. Some of them use -- the proper colour among Croats

18 especially is the black uniform. I have seen it several places

19 before around in the Krajina, outside Krajina, in Croatia, in Bosnia

20 as well.

21 Q. Did you see this group of soldiers then at the Bobovac Brigade

22 Headquarters?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. Would this have been before or after the attack on Stupni Do?

25 A. The attack was ongoing when we got involved in it. We saw them at

Page 139

1 the first meeting up there in the Bobovac Brigade Headquarters. We

2 saw them every time we go up there. Then finally when they were done

3 on the third day we came up to look for Ivica Rajic. He was not

4 there. We saw about five buses, four to five buses, fully packed

5 with these soldiers getting ready to leave the area.

6 Q. When they left the area did you hear them say anything?

7 A. They were just shouting: "We are going to kill you. UNPROFOR sucks.

8 NORDBAT sucks", and and stuff like that.

9 Q. Did they say anything about UNPROFOR being too late?

10 A. Yes. One guy said: "UNPROFOR is late as always. We have finished

11 with our job, ha ha," and just started laughing.

12 Q. I am looking at your statement, Mr. Ekenheim. Do you recall saying

13 that Commander Rajic said that these were his troops in Stupni Do and

14 he was in charge and he can guarantee that they will do nothing to

15 harm the civilians?

16 A. Yes, ma'am. I guess that was in the second meeting with him when

17 they made that statement; second or third meeting, something like

18 that, the first night.

19 Q. Stupni Do from listening to the other testimony was in a valley I

20 gather, is that correct, like

21 a little bowl or not? You tell me?

22 A. Stupni Do in comparison to Vares was on high grounds. Then the

23 village was in a small valley that was, let us say, more level than

24 higher ground than the rest of, let us say, Vares. So you could say

25 it was in a valley, but it was higher ground than the surroundings.

Page 140

1 Q. Was it on a main road?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Vares I gather was on a main road?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. Did you have to go through Vares to get to Tuzla?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. Was there any military significance to Stupni Do?

8 A. None whatsoever.

9 Q. Do you recall saying in your statement that Commander Rajic said

10 that he took Stupni Do because the Bosnian Army would launch an

11 attack against Vares through there, so it had to be neutralized?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. Did you say something about that earlier today? If so, I missed it.

14 A. Yes, ma'am. It was stated that the Bosnian Army was supposed to

15 launch a major attack over Stupni Do to get Vares.

16 Q. When was that, do you recall?

17 A. That was in the first meeting with him.

18 Q. The first meeting. OK.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have nothing further. Mr. Ostberg?

20 MR. OSTBERG: One last question struck me. Can the words "Stupni Do" be

21 translated into English? Does it mean something?

22 A. It is a local dialect. It has to do with a finger, the knuckle.

23 Q. Nothing to do with where it lies in the terrain or something like

24 that?

25 A. Not as far as I know.

Page 141

1 Q. No. OK. Thank you.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Sergeant Ekenheim. You are excused.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

4 (The witness withdrew).

5 MR. OSTBERG: May I raise an issue?


7 MR. OSTBERG: We have two more witnesses: one is the photographer and the

8 other is the Dutch Colonel Jan Koet who has been waiting to be

9 examined today. I take it that you are not going to listen to two

10 more witnesses today?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Well, do you want to call Lieutenant Koet first?

12 MR. OSTBERG: No. Now we are planning to hear Pettersen, but if you are

13 not going to hear Colonel Koet today he could be excused.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How long do you think you will need for Petty

15 Officer Pettersen?

16 MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, I would estimate over half an hour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you can excuse Lieutenant Koet. We will just

18 hear from Petty Officer Pettersen, but Judge Sidhwa reminds me for

19 you to tell Lieutenant Colonel Koet to be available tomorrow at 2.30.

20 That is when we plan to resume.

21 MR. OSTBERG: Of course.

22 Petty Officer Pettersen, called.

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

24 truth and nothing but the truth.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

Page 142

1 MR. CAYLEY: Madam President, this witness will produce exhibits which are

2 photographs which in the main the subject matter is very disturbing.

3 I realise that there is a television output and there is a warning

4 out on the screen, but I just thought I should bring it to the

5 attention of the court.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What does the warning say? I do not know.

7 MR. CAYLEY: The warning says: "Some of the following images may be found

8 to be disturbing".

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed. That is sufficient.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Indeed, it will be necessary for you to have your monitors

11 switched on because these photographs will come up on the monitor as

12 well.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have, thank you.

14 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): Mr. Pettersen, thank you for

15 coming to court today. You are Bernard John Pettersen; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That is correct, sir.

18 Q. I think you are a Petty Officer in the Royal Navy of the United

19 Kingdom is that correct?

20 A. That is correct, sir.

21 Q. I think you were interviewed by investigators from the Tribunal in

22 June 1995 for two days and in August 1995 for two days; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.

25 Q. Just a little about your background. I think you joined the Royal

Page 143

1 Navy in 1976; is that correct?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. I think in 1981 you attended the Joint Services Photographic Course;

4 is that correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Which, in effect, trains you to be an officially trained military

7 photographer?

8 A. That is right, sir, yes.

9 Q. I think in 1991 you attended the Advanced Photographic Course?

10 A. That is correct, sir, yes. I attended that course.

11 Q. I understand that within your training you have done some forensic

12 photography training, scenes of crime training and, indeed, in

13 practice, you have been required to be involved in

14 the photographic recording of Naval aviation crashes and scenes of

15 crime records; is that correct?

16 A. That is also correct, sir, yes.

17 Q. I think you have had operational experience with the Royal Navy in

18 the Falkland zone from October 1984 to February 1985; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And I think in southwest Asia in December 1990?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Is it correct that in August 19923 you were on temporary assignment

24 to 845 Naval Air Squadron at Divelije Barracks in Split in the

25 Republic of Croatia?

Page 144

1 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.

2 Q. I understand that this was part of the British contribution to the

3 UN Protection Forces in the former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. I think shortly after you arrived you were attached to the 1st

6 Battalion, the Prince of Wales Own Royal Regiment of Yorkshire; is

7 that correct?

8 A. That is right.

9 Q. I think you were, in fact, sent to them, as it were, to record their

10 activities and their responsibilities in the former Yugoslavia; is

11 that correct?

12 A. That is correct, sir, yes.

13 Q. I think you were sent, were you not, to work for the Public

14 Information Office making this photographic record of the battalion's

15 activities?

16 A. That is right, sir, yes.

17 Q. I think this included visiting with members of the battalion, HVO

18 units, Bosnian government units and, indeed, Bosnian Serb

19 territories; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.

21 Q. I think during your time with the British battalion you frequently

22 found yourself in difficult situations and you were often under

23 direct fire; is that correct?

24 A. That is also correct.

25 Q. I think sometime in October 1993 you remember that you were required

Page 145

1 to travel from Vitez to Stupni Do to photograph an alleged massacre;

2 is that correct?

3 A. That is correct, sir.

4 Q. I think you were accompanied by a rifle company from the British

5 battalion; is that correct?

6 A. That is also correct.

7 Q. I think it is correct to state that you took over 300 photographs

8 whilst you were in Stupni Do; is that right?

9 A. That is right, sir.

10 Q. Did you make a shot list of each of the negatives of the photographs

11 which you took identifying exactly what that was a photograph of and

12 where it was taken?

13 A. That is correct, sir. I actually logged each photograph and where

14 it was on the village.

15 Q. I understand that when the Tribunal investigator came to visit you,

16 you, in fact, made a more detailed shot list; is that right?

17 A. That is right, sir.

18 Q. I think you, in fact, allocated an alphabetical list to each of the

19 bodies that you photographed running from A to P; is that correct?

20 A. I think that is correct.

21 Q. I should perhaps say human remains rather than bodies because in

22 some cases, I think, they

23 were not really identifiable as human remains; is that correct?

24 A. The remains.

25 Q. I think also when the Tribunal investigator came to record your

Page 146

1 statement you created a grid system which could be laid over a map or

2 a plan of the village of Stupni Do which indicates from, as it were,

3 the key on this grid system where each particular photograph was

4 taken; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Petty Officer Petterson, this is a very important part, you have not

7 altered the prints or the negatives in any way; what we are going to

8 see today is what you took at the time.

9 A. The images you will see today and subsequently all those photographs

10 are untouched or unaltered in any way, shape or form.

11 Q. Initially, is it correct in saying (and I emphasise initially) you

12 did not actually move any of these bodies which you took photographs

13 of in situ?

14 A. No, sir, initially they were taken in situ.

15 Q. I think there were some problems entering Stupni Do, were there not?

16 Could you explain to the court what happened as you got to I think

17 it was a tunnel under a railway, was it not, that was the entrance to

18 Stupni Do?

19 A. That is correct. Just prior to that, your Honours, we approached

20 Vares at night. We had been told that we might come under

21 opposition, so we set off in the early morning at 3 o'clock. On

22 approach to Vares we were actually stopped at a check point. There

23 was a chain across the road and there was a guard and some mines on

24 the road area.

25 I was in a Landrover which was not armoured. We stopped at the

Page 147

1 checkpoint. We had armoured personnel carriers some 15 minutes behind us.

2 My Major, the Major I was working with, actually got out and tried to

3 talk to the soldiers to get our way through. A heated debate took place.

4 I was back from that point at the time and actually took some photographs

5 of the soldiers talking to the Major.

6 After a long conversation, a Scandinavian vehicle came up and

7 another argument took place with the Scandinavian officers and the

8 soldiers at the checkpoint. After a lot of shouting and arguments, the

9 chain was then removed, and I am not sure how the mines were removed, but

10 we were allowed to proceed towards the village of Stupni Do.

11 As we proceeded up the road, the entrance to Stupni Do was a

12 tunnel area underneath a train track. We approached that in our

13 Landrover, and the road was blocked by barbed wired and we were

14 informed that there were possibly mines there. There was a sentry on

15 top of the road block which it was clearly visible to see he had a

16 weapon, a rifle of some sort. It was decided by the Major, Major

17 Hunter, that it was too dangerous to actually proceed, and then the

18 APCs were called for. We got into the APCs, which are armoured

19 personal carriers, we got into them, and the Major decided it was

20 still too dangerous to actually try to go under the tunnel, and he

21 ordered the vehicles, the armoured personnel carriers, to go over the

22 train tracks, and that is how we proceeded into the village. So,

23 the armoured personnel carriers rode over the train tracks and

24 carried on the path the other side of the tunnel.

25 Q. I believed that you travelled into Stupni Do closed down. Can you

Page 148

1 explain to the court what that means? It is a military term, I know.

2 A. As a naval person, this was a bit of novelty to myself. Obviously,

3 not having to work with armoured vehicles, I was fairly unfamiliar

4 with the idea of being enclosed in a vehicle, but

5 it was explained to me much earlier on before getting to Bosnia that

6 it may become apparent that when things get really tough that they

7 will close the vehicle down, all hatches and compartments would be

8 closed so that no explosions or ammunition rounds could actually come

9 in and injure the people inside the vehicle.

10 Q. I think you then, as it were, drove up this track in these tracked

11 armoured personnel carriers. You then entered into Stupni Do. In

12 fact, the hatches of the vehicle were then opened. Can you explain

13 to the court and recall what your first impressions were as you got

14 out of the vehicle?

15 A. As the vehicles approached Stupni Do, one of the soldiers opened the

16 back hatch area which was an outward opening doorway. The doorway

17 opened and my first vision was of

18 a dead cow on a pathway and the smell of burning, acrid burning smoke

19 was there. Shortly after that, I saw the first of the demolished

20 buildings. These buildings were left in

21 ruins. As the vehicle proceeded up the pathway, more visible

22 evidence of the ruins of the buildings were obvious and the smell

23 continued.

24 Q. I think, unsure of the stability of the area, you actually

25 immediately commenced taking photographs?

Page 149

1 A. That is correct. We were concerned that we were not sure how long

2 we had to stay in the area and whether the area was secure, so my

3 first orders were to go round and record all the bodies as fast as I

4 could to ensure that I got the most records in the least time

5 possible.

6 Q. If I could show to the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 so that he can

7 identify a photograph?


9 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise the image on that photograph?

10 A. I recognise this image and can confirm that it is actually a

11 photograph that I took.

12 Q. How do you know that you took that photograph?

13 A. I known my own work, and I recognise the work that I have done this

14 is one of the photographs I took.

15 Q. What can you tell the court about that photograph?

16 A. This is a house that we called the "partisan" house for obvious

17 reasons. You can see it on your screen now. There is a building to

18 the right of that. The area to the left is a garage with large words

19 "partisan" written on it. Having been to this building area, I also

20 went inside the white building.

21 Q. You said that you went into the white building, that is the building

22 with all the smoke marks on the windows and with no roof?

23 A. That is correct. That is the building to the right-hand side. As

24 you can see, the pointer on the screen pointing to it now.

25 Q. Which part of this building did you go into?

Page 150

1 A. I actually first went into the cellar area, proceeded into the

2 cellar area.

3 Q. If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5, indeed, if

4 we can tender Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 into evidence?

5 JUDGE VOHRAH: What date was this exactly?

6 MR. CAYLEY: The witness cannot exactly remember. I mean, I can ask the

7 witness. (To the witness): Do you remember exactly which date?

8 A. I cannot remember, but I understand it was approximately two days

9 after the incident occurred.

10 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

11 MR. CAYLEY: If we could tender the Prosecutor's Exhibit 4 into evidence?

12 Indeed, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted. (Handed).

14 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise this photograph?

15 A. Again I recognise this photograph as one I took.

16 Q. How do you it is a photograph that you took?

17 A. Again I know my own work and I actually can guarantee I took this

18 photograph.

19 Q. What can you tell the court about this photograph?

20 A. This is a photograph that I found three bodies in the cellar. If

21 you look in the area where the mouse is, the arrow is pointing now,

22 you will see three bodies huddled in a trap door area in the corner

23 of the cellar. What I also found in there was a number of cartridge

24 shells lying on the floor next to a red candle which you can just see

25 on the screen. You can see the cartridge shells lying adjacent to

Page 151

1 the candle.

2 Q. Is there anything particularly unusual about this photograph which

3 you noticed at the time or certainly when you were taking it?

4 A. When I was taking the photograph it was very dark in that room,

5 extremely dark in that area, and difficult to see. As I walked

6 around the room, there was a white flower on the floor and there was

7 other cartridge cases, spent cartridges cases, throughout the area to

8 the door at the back of the cellar.

9 Q. Thank you. If that exhibit could be tendered into evidence, your

10 Honour?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather all of these photos that Petty Officer

12 Pettersen will testify about were taken on the same day?

13 MR. CAYLEY: No, they were taken over a two-day period.

14 THE WITNESS: Period of two days.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The first, Exhibit 4, at least, you believe in

16 response to Judge Vohrah's question that it was -----

17 A. That was taken on the first day.

18 Q. The first day which would have been about two days after the

19 incident?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. So if the incident occurred on October 23rd, it would have been

22 October 25th that you took Exhibit 4?

23 A. That is two days, your Honour. I have not a diary saying that is

24 the date so I would accept that.

25 Q. Exhibit 5 would have been taken at the same time as Exhibit 4, the

Page 152

1 same day?

2 A. That is correct, and subsequent within probably an hour of the whole

3 event taking place.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. As you go through the photos, just

5 indicate whether it is the first day or the second day that he went

6 there.

7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, I will your Honour. If that exhibit could be tendered

8 into evidence and if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 6?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Exhibit 5 will be admitted. (Handed).

11 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): What can you tell the court

12 about -- is this a photograph that you have taken?

13 A. That is correct. I took this photograph and it was taken,

14 obviously, to show the amount of wounds and injuries that had been

15 sustained by these three people that were in the trap door area of

16 the cellar. As you can see, there is substantial damage to the

17 facial area and there was also a bullet wound, as you can see where

18 the arrow is indicating now, to the woman on the left's neck. There

19 is a large flow of blood. This was one of many bullet holes and

20 bullet wounds that were in the body of all three of them.

21 Q. If that could be admitted into evidence and the witness be shown

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 7?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 6 will be admitted, taken, I gather, at the

24 same time as Exhibit 5. (Handed).

25 MR. CAYLEY: Is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer

Page 153

1 Pettersen?

2 A. This is another photograph I took.


4 MR. CAYLEY: What day?

5 A. This was on the same day. This was on the first day of the visit,

6 the first day I was there. I

7 took this photograph to show the wounds area around the mouth, nose,

8 arms and, as you can see, to the left-hand side where the arrow is

9 pointing now, and also in the hopes that somebody may be able to

10 identify to identify the face of this person subsequently at a later

11 date.

12 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted into evidence and the witness

13 be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 7 will be admitted. (Handed).

15 MR. CAYLEY: I believe is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty

16 Officer Pettersen?

17 A. That is a photograph that I took.

18 Q. I believe that this photograph was taken on the second day; is that

19 correct?

20 A. That is correct, it was on second day.

21 Q. I believe that this photograph was taken on the upstairs of the

22 house where the three women that we have just seen the images of were

23 taken?

24 A. That is correct. I was informed the following day, having spent the

25 night in the village, the following day, that there were further

Page 154

1 bodies in the upstairs of the partisan house. I was escorted by the

2 doctor and he indicated these three charred remains which he

3 described as bodies to me.

4 Q. Did the doctor assign a sex or age to the remains, some ashen

5 remains, we see there?

6 A. That is correct. I took photographs of all three of the remains.

7 This is one of them, and the doctor said that this was the remains of

8 a child no greater than 18 months of age.

9 Q. If that exhibit, Exhibit 8, could be admitted into evidence and the

10 witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 9?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 8 will be admitted. (Handed).

12 MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown that photograph? Could I have that

13 photograph back, please, because the images on the computer scene, I

14 apologise, are out of sequence. Do you recognise that photograph?

15 A. I recognise this photograph.

16 Q. That is, indeed, a photograph, I think, that you have taken?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Could you tell the court something about it?

19 A. Yes, after leaving the partisan house we came across another body

20 which, obviously, we will talk about in a moment or two. Having been

21 to that body, then we proceeded to this body. It was first described

22 as a child or expected to be a child between the ages of 12 and

23 113. You cannot see on the photograph, but above the body on the

24 wall, the body is on sloping ground, and above the wall there are

25 various amounts of bullet holes in the wall area on and around where

Page 155

1 the body is lying.

2 As you can see, there is a body. The head is where the arrow is

3 now and the body is lying face down along the floor area, as you can

4 see by the amount of rubble, it is a sloping ground that led to the

5 back of a house, and again above the wall area which is out of view

6 in the photograph is a number of bullet marks described as strike

7 marks, because they were not perfectly straight, along the wall.

8 They were in the same position directly above the body area.

9 Q. I believe you, in fact, returned to this body on the second day with

10 the doctor?

11 A. That is correct, we did.

12 Q. Did he identify the body?

13 A. Yes, the doctor further examined this body. He turned it over and

14 there were grey hairs on the chest, a male shirt which was buttoned

15 up on the male side and also a pocket watch. He described this as

16 being the remains of an elderly gentleman, suspected to be least in

17 his

18 50s by the state of his skin and chest area, and also there was a

19 pocket watch lying underneath the body.

20 Q. If that could be admitted, in fact, as Prosecutor's Exhibit 10?

21 Then the next exhibit will be Exhibit 9. I am sorry about that. The

22 sequence is out of order.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 10 will be admitted. (Handed).

24 MR. CAYLEY: Do you recognise this photograph, Petty Officer Pettersen?

25 A. Yes, I recognise this photograph as one I took.

Page 156

1 Q. Can you tell the court something about the photograph?

2 A. Yes. Having left the partisan house, this was the body we next

3 proceeded to. After this body we then went to the exhibit you have

4 just seen. We walked down the path some three to four metres down

5 the partisan house, down the sloping ground. This was the next body

6 we took photographs of. It is a body of a male, you can see the leg

7 area which has got flesh shown, the genitalia near that area, and the

8 body was wearing the remains of buckled boots. There was a trace of

9 combat trouser material on the left leg, and also there was an amount

10 of round scattered next to the body.

11 Q. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 9 and the witness

12 be shown the next photograph?

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought 9 was identified as a child between the

14 ages of 12 and 13 or shall we ----

15 A. No, it was subsequently identified by the doctor as an elderly

16 gentleman between 50 and 60

17 years of age.

18 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry, I think simply for clarity's sake, initially that body

19 was said to be that of

20 a 12 to 13 year old child by an Army medic, and then I think

21 subsequently a Swedish doctor who was at the scene, he actually

22 turned the body over and did a thorough examination and identified it

23 to be that of an elderly man.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is Exhibit 9?

25 MR. CAYLEY: No, Exhibit 10. I apologise for that. The images on the

Page 157

1 screen were out of order. Therefore, you have seen the wrong image

2 relating to the photograph Mr. Pettersen is talking about.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The exhibit that Mr. Pettersen has now is exhibit --

4 is the male with the combat trousers.

5 MR. CAYLEY: That is Exhibit 9. I am sorry about that.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is OK. Exhibit 9 then will be admitted.

7 MR. CAYLEY: MR. CAYLEY (To the witness): I think you then actually

8 proceeded to a higher area of the village which, in fact, the first

9 witness morning identified to you as an area, a hamlet of Stupni Do

10 called Pricado. I think when you got there and again this was

11 on the first day, was it not?

12 A. That is correct. I actually took this photograph on the second day

13 with the doctor's examination, but I did take earlier photographs of

14 the bodies in situ in this building.

15 Q. This was in Pricado?

16 A. That was in Pricado, that is correct. That is the upper hamlet

17 pathway from the bottom of the village.

18 Q. I see. Can you tell us the court something about this photograph?

19 A. This is a photograph of three bodies. I approached this building

20 and found four bodies in this building. This is a photograph of

21 three bodies. As you can see if you look in the area

22 to the middle area left, if you could just move the arrow to the

23 middle area left, keep going left, left -- stop there -- there was

24 one of the bodies or the remains of ashes of a body was there.

25 There was a subsequent two further bodies, if you just move the

Page 158

1 arrow to the right-hand, the top body, that body was described by the

2 doctor as a female. If you would like to bring the arrow down to the

3 other body, to that area -- just go up a bit more -- he described that as

4 a

5 male -- if we could possibly go closer on that -- as you may be able to

6 see now on your screens, if you move up, there is a chin area where the

7 arrow is now, neckline, leading down to the left shoulder area and the

8 chest area is exposed. The doctor identified that as male by hairs on the

9 chest again.

10 These bodies were -- can you just open it again -- the two

11 bodies, the one you can see, the female and the male, were bonded

12 together initially when I took the photographs in situ, and I

13 assisted the doctor in peeling the bodies apart so that we could

14 actually identify

15 the body underneath the female.

16 Q. If that could be admitted, your Honour, as Prosecutor's Exhibit 11?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 11 will be admitted.

18 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 12? Is

19 this a photograph that you have taken?

20 A. That is correct. This was taken on the first day of the female face

21 before the doctor and myself subsequently ----

22 Q. So of the image that the court has just seen of the three bodies,

23 this is the body that was identified as that of a female?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. This is a close up shot.

Page 159

1 A. A close up shot of the face. You may be able to make out the eye

2 sockets, the nose

3 area, mouth and chin area leading down to the neck, and the remains

4 of shoulders and rib cage. This was a body of a female that was on

5 top of a male, so there was a male body underneath this body of the

6 female. That was described by the doctor.

7 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 12?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 12 will be admitted.

9 MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 13 could be shown to the witness? Is

10 this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer Pettersen?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. I believe that this was taken on the first day?

13 A. That is right. Having left the house with the four bodies or the

14 four charred remains where

15 this location -----

16 Q. So you were still in the area of Pricado?

17 A. Very much so. We were literally, this next body was found less than

18 probably 50 to 75 yards away from the house with four bodies in.

19 This was almost opposite that house, a little bit up the path, but

20 only by 50 metres at the most.

21 Q. Did the doctor look at this body?

22 A. The doctor subsequently examined this body, and again took the top

23 clothes off the body and identified both entry and exit bullet wounds

24 and both front and back area.

25 Q. So, in fact, he confirmed that this individual had been killed by

Page 160

1 being shot?

2 A. He identified the bullet holes and subsequent other marks to the

3 body were charred areas from the wood that had, apparently, or

4 appeared to have fallen on the body. There was no other indication

5 that anything else other than a bullet wound had actually caused this

6 man's death.

7 Q. Thank you very much. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 13?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 13 will be admitted.

10 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 14? I

11 think again this photograph was taken on the second day; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. I think that this was taken above Pricado in the tree line where the

15 woods, in fact, come down to the edge of the hamlet of Pricado; is

16 that correct?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. What can you tell the court about this photograph?

19 A. As you left that gentleman, the previous image we have just seen, we

20 continued up the path of -- the path of the hamlet continued to rise.

21 It went to a bend area where the buildings finished and there was a

22 large tree line that ran up to the hills. In this tree line, at the

23 bottom of the tree line, there was a dead brown cow which had been

24 shot. Some 50 metres, 75 metres away from the cow was this

25 gentleman's body up the hill line.

Page 161

1 He was lying face down when I photographed him initially and

2 subsequently the doctor turned his body over. As you can see on your

3 monitors, the doctor examined the body and on the back of the body it

4 was visible to see an exit wound from a bullet and the doctor

5 inserted a twig into the front of the body, as you can see from the

6 arrow, to show what he said was the entry wound of the bullet.

7 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 14?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 14 will be admitted.

9 MR. CAYLEY: I will show the witness Exhibit 15. I know that these next

10 photographs are not photographs that, in fact, you referred to in

11 your statement but, indeed, I believe they are photographs that you

12 took at the time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you take this photograph?

15 A. That is correct, I took this photograph.

16 Q. Can you tell the court something about this photograph?

17 A. Throughout the two days that I was in attendance at Stupni Do, the

18 troops went through on routine searches to try see if there were any

19 survivors that may have been hiding away and afraid to come out. But

20 they were also looking for further bodies. During my time there,

21 having identified and photographed the bodies that I had done, we

22 found no further bodies or identified any further survivors.

23 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit 15 and

24 the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 16?

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 15 will be admitted. (Handed).

Page 162

1 MR. CAYLEY: Is this a photograph that you have taken?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. What day did you take this photograph?

4 A. This was taken, I believe, on day two. It was day two when the

5 search parties went around again. It was the same photograph, the

6 same team people that were in that area in the photograph and that

7 was taken on day two.

8 Q. Can you tell the court a little bit about this photograph?

9 A. This is a photograph that I took to show the search parties going

10 through the remains of the village, showing them searching for

11 further evidence and the bodies. Also, I took it because it

12 impressed on me the amount of damage that had actually happened to

13 that village. The chimney area, you can see the centre top of the

14 photograph, just centre top. To the right of that is the Valley of

15 Vares that stoops away into the background. The hamlet area where I

16 found some of the bodies is on to the left, top left area, and the

17 pathway was around that area where the hamlets were, further up on to

18 the tree line.

19 Q. That is, indeed, the tree line up there where you found the dead

20 body of the elderly gentleman?

21 A. That is correct, and the four charred remains in the one building

22 and the gentleman with the cow.

23 Q. Thank you. If that could be admitted, your Honour, as Prosecutor's

24 Exhibit 16?

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 16 will be admitted.

Page 163

1 MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 17? Is this a

2 photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer Pettersen?

3 A. I took this photograph.

4 Q. Can you remember which day you took this photograph?

5 A. This was taken on day one.

6 Q. What is this an image of? What can you tell the court about this

7 photograph?

8 A. This is a photograph taken of the path area in the upper hamlet, the

9 upper hamlet path.

10 Q. Pricado?

11 A. Pricado, that is correct. The start of the buildings showing the

12 amount of devastation and ruin of the buildings up on that area. It

13 shows the pathway where the gentlemen are walking down the hill, and

14 the building above the gentleman in the red top, if you move that --

15 that is it, that is the one there; no, keep going right, that is it

16 -- that building area was the area where the gentleman in the blue

17 jacket was found lying face up.

18 Q. Lying on his back?

19 A. Lying on his back.

20 Q. Can we see the house here where the three charred remains were

21 found?

22 A. It is a bit clear on my photograph. That is behind the large white

23 building and I -- the path way, you go right, keep going right --

24 that building, the houses behind that building and the pathway ran

25 down to the left of that building.

Page 164

1 Q. Right, thank you. If that could be admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit

2 17?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 17 will be admitted.

4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 18?

5 (Handed) Is this a photograph that you have taken, Petty Officer

6 Pettersen?

7 A. That is correct. I took this photograph.

8 Q. On what day of your time in Stupni Do did you take this photograph?

9 A. This was taken on day two.

10 Q. I think the photograph speaks for itself. It is a panoramic view of

11 a major portion of the village to show, indeed, the damage that was

12 caused by the attack; is that correct?

13 A. That is correct. I took this photograph to show the overall damage

14 of the area and in the hopes also that we would be able to use it to

15 identify where the bodies were found at a later date. If you look at

16 the bottom middle corner you can see the "Partisan" house, the house

17 and the garage area with the word "Partisan" written on it.

18 Q. So the white house to the right is, indeed, where you found the

19 bodies of the three women?

20 A. That is correct. If you move the mouse to left-hand corner, red

21 roof -- keep going up -- the body of the male lying on his back was

22 found in that region area there.

23 Q. That was the elderly gentleman?

24 A. No, the young gentleman with the boots on and the flesh wounds to

25 his leg.

Page 165

1 Q. Right. If that could be admitted into evidence, your Honour, as

2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 18?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that the entire village, Mr. Pettersen?

4 A. It was undulating ground and behind the middle area the ground

5 slipped away so there were further houses -- can you just move by

6 that van, see the coloured van; just go up -- at that point the

7 ground slipped away and there were further buildings that sloped down

8 and slightly left. There was also, as you can see, the landscape

9 rolls away, and there were

10 a few houses over the next valley and also there were some out of

11 shot to the far right and up. Can you just bring the mouse in a bit?

12 It is off screen. Keep going up. On that hillside there were

13 further houses some probably up to half a mile away. If you were

14 standing facing the main village you could actually see that there

15 was the main houses and

16 then the valley went upwards, and there were further buildings dotted

17 on the sky line as the valley went upwards. So there were subsequent

18 houses outside of the main village area as well as some down in a

19 dip.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The evidence seems to indicate that there were

21 approximately 250 persons, is it, living in the village.

22 MR. CAYLEY: That is correct, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What proportion of the village would this depict,

24 this 18?

25 A. This photograph I see here, I would say that the photographs of the

Page 166

1 hamlet, and I would estimate that there may probably be 10, 10 houses

2 maybe in the village, not counting the hamlet area where I was

3 standing because I am on the platform, probably may be 10 houses

4 more.

5 Q. 10 houses?

6 A. Or 10 buildings. Obviously, the buildings were in such a state. I

7 understand that one of the buildings was a school, or a school area,

8 and it could be in no way recognised as such in that way, although

9 the troops called it a school area. But the buildings were

10 unrecognisable, some as houses, some as garages; some had been

11 flattened near enough to the ground. It was very difficult to

12 identify exactly what was in there.

13 Q. But you would estimate approximately there are 10 buildings that are

14 not depicted?

15 A. I would say a minimum of 10 buildings that you cannot see because of

16 the falling ground, and also that some of the houses were not in the

17 main village. I would say there was easily 10 more houses.

18 Q. Other than those 10 buildings, this reflects the entire hamlet?

19 A. This was a true reflection, as were the other photographs, of the

20 amount of damage that had happened throughout the village.

21 Q. You said "hamlet"?

22 A. "Hamlet" is an English term for small village, sorry.

23 Q. So it was a village but a small village?

24 A. Small villages in England are called hamlets.

25 Q. Is this a small village?

Page 167

1 A. In an English standard, yes, it would be a small village.

2 JUDGE VOHRAH: It is Stupni Do?

3 A. That is the whole Stupni Do, that is correct.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. 18 will be admitted.

5 MR. CAYLEY: I think, simply put, at the end of your two days in Stupni Do

6 you returned to Vitez with units of the British battalion; is that

7 correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Then subsequently after your posting had finished in the former

10 Yugoslavia you returned to the United Kingdom; is that correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Thank you very much indeed.

13 A. Can I just put in, as soon as I returned the photographs were

14 developed straightaway so that the evidence could be preserved.

15 Immediately I returned from Stupni Do, the negatives were then

16 developed back at Vitez straightaway.

17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Your Honours, if you have any questions of the

18 witness?

19 JUDGE SIDHWA: When you returned to England had you left the negatives

20 with the Army authorities or -----

21 A. Some days after processing the negatives, I then personally

22 delivered the negatives to the RMP, the Military Police, the Canadian

23 Police, in Kiseljak with the list of where the photographs were. I

24 also spoke to them on the phone prior to doing the list to confirm

25 that it would be OK for me to actually identify the body as A through

Page 168

1 the alphabet.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You indicated in your statement, I think: "I do not

3 remember seeing window glass on some of the windows in the damaged

4 buildings. I saw black molten glass around the edges and corner

5 frames of the windows"?

6 A. That is something that became apparent as night fell because we had

7 to stay in the village overnight, and we slept on the ground, on the

8 floors around the armoured vehicles. Obviously, looking for sort of

9 comfort, one of the things that did come to my mind was there was no

10 glass that we could lie on. I did notice in a few of the buildings

11 that the walls were, the paintwork was still intact, everything in

12 the buildings was intact, and the window areas that remained, there

13 was just black areas of rolled, well, it looked like molten lather,

14 or appeared to be glass, that were at the very bottom of the window.

15 It looked like it had been heated very fast. At school, we blew

16 glass and the bits that were left went brown and black and stuck

17 together very hard like a thick glue, blackened, and this is what I

18 saw in the corners of the windows, but there did not appear to be

19 chards of glass to lie on or anything. It was one of the few things

20 that, sort of, stuck in my mind very strangely.

21 Q. Why do you think that is strange?

22 A. Well, it was just that because, obviously, as the night goes on, we

23 were sleeping amongst rubble and stones, and as we were brushing the

24 stones away it was something that first came to mind and I did not

25 find any glass. That was it really.

Page 169

1 Q. It has no relevance to the type of equipment that was used.

2 A. Not that I -- it was just a pointer thing that normally, seeing the

3 amount of devastation, I expected to see lots of glass and things

4 like that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything else?

6 MR. CAYLEY: No, your Honour.

7 JUDGE SIDHWA: Did it appear to you that the devastation was basically due

8 to the houses being torched and that due to fire all this has taken place

9 or is it -----

10 A. I have seen fires that have been created by accident, but I do not

11 think I have got sufficient knowledge to actually say whether the

12 buildings were torched or whether that was due to ammunition. Being a

13 Navy person, although I had former experience and formal training in

14 slight military things, I had not actually experienced the buildings that,

15 you know, to see what was an artillery round and which was fire. So I do

16 not think that I really could say which way that happened.

17 I did notice a lot of smoke around the window areas as well on a

18 lot of

19 the buildings, which would indicate at some point the buildings had

20 been or had caught fire. I did see other buildings around Bosnia in

21 my time there that indicated that there had

22 been fire and flames there as well, and a lot of these established

23 and resembled that. But I have never seen any buildings that were

24 near enough raised to the ground through fire.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Petty Officer Pettersen, you are excused. Thank you.

Page 170

1 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.30 p.m.

2 (The hearing was adjourned until the following day)