Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3839

 1                          Wednesday, 20 February 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 12.01 p.m.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the case,

 7    please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 9    is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today we are Wednesday, the 20th

11    of February, 2008.  I'd like to greet the representatives of the

12    Prosecution, the witness, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people assisting

13    us in the courtroom.  The examination-in-chief will resume today unless

14    Mr. Seselj has something to tell us.

15            Mr. Seselj.

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a terrible problem

18    has occurred, and as we're talking about a confidential decision, you know

19    that in principle I am against any form of confidentiality, but I would

20    nonetheless like to draw your attention so that perhaps you could issue

21    the order to move to private session.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Could we go into private

23    session, please.

24                          [Private session]

25  (redacted)

Page 3840











11    Pages 3840-3856 redacted. Private session















Page 3857

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4                          [Open session]

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

 7            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I am not in a position yet to inform

 8    Your Honours about progress regarding disclosure of certain documents that

 9    are subject to and requests for protective measures, so on that I cannot

10    update you.

11            There was also another issue of whether or not the Prosecution had

12    the decree or the decision establishing an imminent -- the state of

13    imminent threat of war, and indeed that exhibit which Mr. Seselj requested

14    is 65 ter number 592 on the Prosecution exhibit list, and I have copies

15    here that I can hand out, and in light of yesterday's discussions maybe it

16    would be appropriate to admit these into evidence.

17            I --

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have to remind you,

21    Mr. President, that you asked this of the Prosecution yesterday,

22    principally you, and then that I help the Prosecutor by telling him where

23    he could find it, but it was the Trial Chamber who actually asked for the

24    document yesterday.  I might have supported your request, but you

25    requested it first.  So the Prosecutor would have had to have come by that

Page 3858

 1    document himself.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be,

 3    what -- what matters is that we have the documents which was published in

 4    the Official Gazette on the 18th of October, 1991.

 5            So can we have an exhibit number, please.  This is a well-known

 6    document.  Registrar, please.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another objection to make.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will recall that yesterday both

10    the Prosecutor and the witness throughout said that the imminent threat of

11    war was established on the 3rd of October, 1991, and as naive as I am,

12    without having the documents in fronts of me I believed them, but you

13    could see that it was the 1st of October, in fact, when an act on the

14    proclamation of a state of war was proclaimed the day when we transformed

15    the Crisis Staff into the War Staff of the Serbian Radical Party.  So

16    that's just what happened yesterday.  So I was taken in by that trick of

17    theirs.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  True to fact the

19    document does that it is the 1 of October not the 18th.  Could we have an

20    exhibit number and then the witness will be --

21            THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ... P220.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

23            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm sure that this would be an issue in

24    cross-examination in due course.  Your Honours, we left off yesterday at a

25    point when we were going through various documents relative to the War

Page 3859

 1    Staff of the SRS, and if Your Honours would go to where we left off

 2    yesterday in binder 1, the next documents I would like to discuss with the

 3    witness begins with Exhibit number 65 ter 486.  It's like three-fourths

 4    down in the binder.  And the issue that I was going to bring up with the

 5    witness concerned the issue of reports received by the War Staff.

 6            President Judge Antonetti already raised this issue on the first

 7    day of the testimony of the witness, and the reference that is at pages

 8    3656 and 3657 of the transcript, where he mentioned two specific reports,

 9    65 ter number 459, and I apologise, maybe that is actually the exhibit we

10    should begin with, which is -- if you found the document I just mentioned,

11    it's just the document before what I just said.  And the second document,

12    the second report, is Exhibit number 486.

13            Could we -- without displaying it to the public, could we call up

14    5 -- sorry, 459, please.

15                          WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

16                          Examination by Mr. Marcussen:  [Continued]

17       Q.   Mr. Theunens, do you have the document in front of you?

18       A.   I have it now, Your Honours.

19       Q.   You have it on the screen.

20       A.   Yeah.

21       Q.   Mr. Theunens, you mentioned this report the other day, but could

22    you just remind us?  What is this document?

23       A.   Your Honours, this document is a report which was compiled by

24    Zoran Rankic, the deputy chief of the SRS War Staff who addresses in the

25    report his observations during the visit he carried out to Slavonia,

Page 3860

 1    Baranja, and Western Srem, and I would like to draw your attention to the

 2    first three lines of the document where the author says that he was sent

 3    by the order of the staff and the president Dr. Vojislav Seselj.

 4            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, what is the date of this document?

 5      Do we have that?

 6            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I don't believe we have a date on the document or

 7    at least it's difficult to read at least that's what the translation says

 8    I don't know if -- sometime in 1991 if Your Honour look at the bottom of

 9    the second page.

10            THE WITNESS:  My understanding is it's the 2nd of September, 1991,

11    Your Honours.  Maybe see --

12            MR. MARCUSSEN:  If you look at the B/C/S version on the last page,

13    it says "Belgrade, 02 --" it looks like 09, 1991.

14            And, Your Honours, if you've found the document in the binder,

15    then if you would like to flip to the next document which is then 486,

16    which may we also call up.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going very fast with

18    this 4 -- first document 459.

19            Now, Witness, a report has been prepared by Mr. Rankic following

20    an order given by the staff and the president, Mr. Seselj.  This person

21    went to Slavonia to visit the units there who were seemingly on the

22    ground, on the battleground.  We don't know whether it was a battle ground

23    or not, but anyway.

24            So as you are a military expert, what can you conclude thereof?

25    How are we to understand this?  From your point of view, of course.

Page 3861

 1            THE WITNESS:  Well, Your Honours, it -- it supports the conclusion

 2    I drew earlier that the SRS War Staff is acting as a military staff organ

 3    whereby the Party Staff and the president Vojislav Seselj can issue orders

 4    to the SRS War Staff to visit volunteer units or SRS volunteer units on

 5    the field, whereby I think when we finish the whole sentence, the first

 6    sentence, Rankic doesn't only go to just visit the units as some kind of a

 7    social activity, but he also goes to relay so to forward an order to

 8    withdraw in order to re-group forces.  So this indicates that the War

 9    Staff and Mr. Seselj are in a position to issue orders to their volunteers

10    on the field.

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down somewhat, Witness, please.

12            THE WITNESS:  Excuse me.   And the dates is it's sent on the 3rd

13    of August, 1991.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now if we look at this in

15    detail, he arrived on the 31st of August around 8.00 p.m.  seeming think

16    there is an operation going on.  There are mortars, there is shelling.

17    And he contacts the commander Branislav Gavrilovic and his deputy Miroslav

18    Vukotic.  So this unit has a commander.  That commander is Gavrilovic.

19    Who does he report to in military terms?  Who does he report to, this

20    person?

21            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the document does not allow to draw

22    such a conclusion.  What I do know from looking at other documents --

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because I'm sorry, Witness, but

24    let me give you another example, contemporaneous example.  Take the case

25    of Iraq, for instance.  Sometimes there are members of parliament,

Page 3862

 1    politicians who go on the ground, who visit the units, who talk to the

 2    members of the units.  Does this mean that one is going to infer that this

 3    particular political party is commanding the operations on the ground?

 4    This is what the whole issue hinges on.  These are some of the questions

 5    that the Bench have.

 6            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I believe I understand your -- your

 7    question, your concern.  When you give the example of Iraq, you are

 8    talking about a regular armed force, probably one of the coalition forces

 9    active there, who are being visited by people who are not part of the

10    chain of command.  If a Member of Parliament or any other authority who is

11    not part of the chain of command would visit these units and would give

12    orders, there would be a problem, because the principle of single command

13    and control would be violated.  So in such a situation the person who

14    receives the order has to inform his commander on the next superior level

15    to alert him of this event.

16            Returning to the report compiled by Zoran Rankic, deputy chief of

17    the War Staff, Rankic is visiting a unit of SRS volunteers.  On the 30th

18    of August, 1991, he meets Branislav Gavrilovic.  Branislav Gavrilovic is a

19    senior SRS volunteer.  I have been able to draw that conclusion from other

20    documents I have reviewed while preparing this report, and you will notice

21    that Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, is not only active in Slavonia,

22    Baranja, and Western Srem as a person in charge of SRS volunteers, but we

23    also see him later in other areas, for example, Sarajevo in the course of

24    1992 and later on where he's in the same position, in command of a group

25    or detachment of SRS volunteers.  Gavrilovic is even recognised for his

Page 3863

 1    activities during the conflicts by Mr. Seselj through his proclamation to

 2    Chetnik Vojvoda.

 3            So what we have is a member of the SRS War Staff visiting a SRS

 4    unit in the area.

 5            To address your point about the JNA.  As I said, the document does

 6    not allow to conclude who of the JNA was in charge.  However when we look

 7    at the specifics, and that is also addressed in the Slavonia, Baranja, and

 8    Western Srem section of my report, the senior command of the JNA is

 9    unhappy with the situation in Eastern Slavonia at that moment in time.

10    That is why in the course of the month of September the overall commander

11    is replaced, i.e., that General Zivota Panic commander of the 1st military

12    district is put in charge of the operations in Slavonia, Baranja, and

13    Western Srem.  Panic, after his appointment reorganises the forces into

14    two Operational Groups, Operational Group north, Operational Group south

15    there are still other forces active too; but the main impact of Panic

16    taking over is as he declares himself he installs or he restores single

17    command and control over all the forces, JNA, TO Serbia, local Serb TO as

18    well as volunteers that are active in the area.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21       Q.   Mr. Theunens, if we now go to the next document, which will then

22    be 486.  If we can call that up in e-court.

23            This is a document saying -- well, there we have it up on the

24    screen.  Defence Staff document.  Do you refer to this document also in

25    your report?

Page 3864

 1       A.   Yes indeed, Your Honours.

 2       Q.   And what does this document tell us about orders and reporting

 3    within the SRS?

 4       A.   Well --

 5       Q.   In particular reporting to the War Staff.

 6       A.   This document, which was also published later on in the SRS party

 7    magazine includes detailed information on the military situation in

 8    Western Slavonia where SRS volunteers are active.  It also addresses how

 9    this unit was trained, its activities, how it's structured, and at the end

10    of the report -- maybe if we go to the last page.

11       Q.   Yes, we can do that.

12       A.   In the last paragraph, Your Honours, Radovanovic -- I'm reading

13    from the document now.  In the last -- in the second line of the last

14    paragraph he says:

15            "At 1800 hours the same day I dismissed all the volunteers under

16    my direct command who were stationed in the villages," and so on and so

17    on, "and ordered them to report to the Party Staff in Belgrade on their

18    arrival at their places of residence ..."

19            This shows that Radovanovic is in a position to issue orders and

20    even he has volunteers under his command.  There's no mention made of any

21    notification or participation of a JNA officer or commander, commanding

22    officer in that transfer of order, and then these volunteers are to report

23    based on the order of Radovanovic to the SRS War Staff in Belgrade.

24            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, I would seek the admission of

25    the two documents we just have talked about, 459 and 486.

Page 3865

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We'll give an a number,

 2    but then I will ask my question.  So could you please give us two numbers.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter number 459 will be

 4    Exhibit number P221 under seal, and 65 ter number 486 will be Exhibit

 5    number P222 under seal.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  Expert

 7    witness,  this report which was sent by Mr. Radovanovic to the Serbian

 8    Radical Party, apparently, seems to deal with the activities of the

 9    volunteers from the SRS.  This report explains that the detachment was set

10    up on July 7th in the village of Grosnica, and then describes what has

11    happened, which is very well, but I have a question.  I with like to know

12    how this commander, Radovanovic, military-wise, who does he report to?

13    Does he report to the JNA or is it a completely autonomous unit of --

14    similar to a paramilitary unit at work here, because page 5, paragraph 3,

15    you know, nothing escapes me, he does mention a warrant officer 2nd class

16    Vujanovic.  Obviously he seems to belong to the JNA, and this person is

17    supposed to be in charge of the mortar battery.  This Vujanovic also seems

18    to be connected to the TO in the village of Sodolovci.

19            So military-wise we have combatants on the ground.  There's combat

20    activities going on, and there's a command.  Now, that this one should

21    report to his political party, why should he not make a report to the --

22    to his military party?  Maybe they're military secrets, and that's another

23    problem, of course.  But you seem to say that with this report we have

24    basis for foundation for the theory according to which the Serbian Radical

25    Party is directly controlling armed forces on the ground, that this report

Page 3866

 1    is the true example and a perfect example and illustration of this.  This

 2    is your theory.  Fine.  But -- but I would like to know exactly what is

 3    the situation of this unit before going along with your theory, because if

 4    for one -- in one way or another it is under JNA command, then I believe

 5    that your theory should be very closely scrutinised.  And you are not

 6    telling us that as of July 7th, 1991, in this region, you're not telling

 7    us exactly what is the military structure that is in place, and I believe

 8    that this is missing, and this is creating a problem.

 9            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, the situation in Western Slavonia is

10    discussed in a separate section in my report starting on page 124 of the

11    second part of the report.  Now, to answer your question, theoretically --

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not dealing with Western

13    Slavonia here at all but Eastern Slavonia.  These are villages in Eastern

14    Slavonia where the volunteers were before the JNA entered into armed

15    combat with the Croatian paramilitaries.  So we're dealing with Eastern

16    Slavonia.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is Eastern

18    Slavonia.  So please go ahead.

19            THE WITNESS:  As I mentioned earlier, the conflict is in full

20    development.  At that stage, at the date of the document, 13th of

21    September, 1991, as I mentioned in the previous reply to a question, the

22    forces -- the forces in -- in Eastern Slavonia, there are problems with,

23    among other things, command and control, and that's why on the level of

24    the JNA measures are taken to restructure the forces in order to impose

25    single command and control.

Page 3867

 1            Now, Srecko Radovanovic is a SRS volunteer.  I have not found

 2    information on any position or rank he held within the JNA.

 3            To answer your question on the warrant officer, a warrant officer

 4    is not an officer but it's a senior non-commissioned officer.  Well, the

 5    situation is such that at that moment in time in several areas as we have

 6    discussed in relation to the problems the JNA was facing with mobilisation

 7    and the call-up of reservists, there are even people within the JNA who --

 8    who refuse to continue to serve in the JNA and, for example, here join a

 9    local Serb TO unit or even a volunteer unit.

10            It is obvious that in theory the military hierarchy should have

11    acted against that, but we cannot draw a conclusion for this specific

12    person.

13            Now, to further provide you information on the -- the situation in

14    Eastern Slavonia, I have heard from officers of the Guards Motorised

15    Brigade who were part of Operational Group south, so the Operational Group

16    that was in charge of taking Vukovar, that the situation with the

17    volunteers was such that one -- that on one day a whole group of

18    volunteers could have disappeared even though while they were

19    participating in the operation, they were under JNA command and control.

20    The other thing could happen, too, that two days later suddenly there's a

21    group of 500 volunteers who wish to -- who have been sent from Belgrade or

22    from Serbia to participate in the fighting.  So it is very hard to provide

23    a sort concise answer that covers all the situations because we are in a

24    very de facto situation at that moment in time.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Yes, it is a

Page 3868

 1    complicated situation, and when a situation is complex, it's best not to

 2    draw hasty conclusions.

 3            If you look at the last page in this report, you see how complex

 4    it is.  Look at the fourth paragraph before the end.  He says it's 1400

 5    hours.  He's talking about a motorised unit of the JNA in Laslovo, the

 6    village of Laslovo.  There's obviously a battle, and we know that JNA is

 7    present there.

 8            Next paragraph then we find out that five men were killed in the

 9    battle, two SCP volunteers, two members of Arkan's unit, and the commander

10    of the defence of the village of Markusica.  So when we scrutinise all

11    this, we find out there are several units involved.  Several people, not

12    just SRS volunteers, other volunteers also and if there is a battle going

13    on at one point in time there must be some kind of command and control in

14    place.  It seems that the JNA has a motorised unit present, so any logical

15    mind must draw the conclusion that it is not chaos that is occurring

16    there, but maybe it is, I don't know.  But when I read this report, I note

17    there are people from Arkan's unit, from other political parties.  They're

18    not just SRS volunteers.

19            What can you say about this?

20            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, the situation should be that all the

21    units would be under the command of the -- under the command of the -- the

22    most senior JNA officer in the area.  That is what the doctrine says.

23    That is what the law says.

24            However, as I've tried to explain, when we look at this particular

25    report in context and we -- we study the events in Eastern Slavonia and

Page 3869

 1    the situation at that time, there is indeed -- I wouldn't call it chaos,

 2    but there are problems with ensuring single and unified command and

 3    control in the area.

 4            As Kadijevic pointed out in his book and we discussed it, the

 5    JNA's facing enormous problems with mobilisation and the call-up of

 6    reservists.  At the same time there are political parties in Serbia who

 7    say, "Well, we don't trust the JNA because the JNA is Communist.  We want

 8    to defend the Serbs so we send volunteers."  Eastern Slavonia is the

 9    closest by area to Serbia.  It's a direct border, the Danube River, to go

10    and participate in the fight in their view to defend the Serbs.  So there

11    are volunteers or groups appearing in the area with their own internal

12    structure like, for example, the group of Radovanovic.  There are also

13    other units in the area.  The Serbs have established -- the local Serbs

14    have established local Serb TO units which is here called the command of

15    the defence of that village.  There maybe barricades in some villages

16    whereas in another village five kilometres further, nothing is happening.

17            Just to -- I mean to -- to show to you the complexity of the

18    situation, the senior command, I mean the Supreme Command Staff is aware

19    of the situation and takes measures in the course of the months of

20    September, at least for Eastern Slavonia --

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm trying to replace

22    these volunteers within the framework of a military operation, and I note

23    that you have not really worked in detail regarding this, and I'll

24    demonstrate this to you.

25            Go to page 6, paragraph before last -- before the paragraph -- the

Page 3870

 1    second paragraph before the end.  There are platoons cropping here and

 2    there.  So it seems that that is large-scale military operation underway,

 3    and there was an artillery operation that had been planned for 7.00, 0700

 4    hours, with 120-millimetre mortars, and they shelled until 0800 hours.  So

 5    everything was planned.  This was not chaos.  This was not improvised.

 6    This had been planned.

 7            So did you try and find the orders on the Croatian side on the JNA

 8    side?  In order to really investigate the combat action to draw the

 9    conclusion, which if I follow your conclusion you're saying that on the

10    ground there are only SRS volunteers that are under direct command of the

11    Serbian Radical Party in Belgrade.

12            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I don't want to create the impression

13    that the conclusion you just mentioned that is my conclusion.  My

14    conclusion is that the report shows certain things about the SRS

15    volunteers in the area.  To answer the first part of your question, indeed

16    we have sent -- when I say "we," the Office of the Prosecutor has sent

17    numerous requests for assistance to first the Federal Republic of

18    Yugoslavia, then Serbia and Montenegro, and then Serbia in order to obtain

19    orders, documents of JNA units in Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, yeah, in

20    order to obtain these documents.

21            I don't remember whether there was a specific document for this

22    specific operation or whether we made a specific question for this

23    specific operation; but I can assure you, and if required I can bring you

24    a record of the requests we made that such requests have been made over at

25    least the past six years.

Page 3871

 1            I have not been able to identify additional information which

 2    would allow to determine in further detail what was exactly happening in

 3    the area Radovanovic is talking about, but I believe that when taking --

 4    when one looks to -- in context with the other documents I have quoted in

 5    the report, that this document assists in drawing the conclusion I draw,

 6    and I can repeat that conclusion.  That is that this document shows that

 7    the Serbian Radical Party has volunteers active in the area of Eastern

 8    Slavonia.  They are not the only volunteers.  I haven't claimed that and

 9    that these volunteers enjoy particular relations with the Radical Party

10    and the War Staff, whereby members of the War Staff can issue orders to

11    these volunteers, and there is also an internal hierarchical structure

12    within those SRS volunteers in the area.

13            MR. MARCUSSEN:

14       Q.   I -- I --

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I must intervene, Judge,

16    sir, because for quite some time this expert has been misleading you

17    intentionally.  This is the period where the JNA was not yet participating

18    in the conflict.  You see when at 1400 hours an armoured units of the JNA

19    arrived the fighting stopped.  The volunteers were helping the defence of

20    Serbian villages and had nothing to do with the JNA, and yet the witness

21    is referring to orders issued by the Supreme Command.  Your Honour can say

22    this can be dealt with in cross-examination but it's been going on for too

23    long.  This is the period in which the volunteers of the Serbian radical

24    army did not have any links with the JNA.  That's why they withdrew.  They

25    were defending individual Serbian villages in the area.

Page 3872

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard what's just

 2    been said.  Would you like to respond or not, or are you waiting for the

 3    cross-examination?  Yes, because the theory put forward by Mr. Seselj

 4    several times already, he states that in September already the JNA

 5    according to him is not one of the main parties to these operations and

 6    they might not even be there at all, and spontaneous defence systems were

 7    established either in the villages or by the TO.  So this was then

 8    reinforced by volunteers.

 9            What do you have to say about this?

10            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I would reply the following way, that

11    is already during the incidents in Borovo Selo which is not so far away

12    from the villages discussed in this report, and I'm talking about the 2nd

13    of May, 1991, the JNA is sent to separate the warring parties.

14            The report sent by Radovanovic does not allow to draw the

15    conclusion as to what the JNA is doing.  It could well be that at this

16    stage, so mid of September, some JNA units in particular areas where a

17    conflict erupts are sent to separate the warring factions.  I would just

18    like to return to what I said earlier, that is that later on in the month

19    of September the Supreme Command issues certain orders and it's at the

20    latest on the 30th of September that we see the existence or written

21    evidence of the existence of Operational Group south in Eastern Slavonia.

22            MR. MARCUSSEN:

23       Q.   Mr. --

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25            MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 3873

 1       Q.   Mr. Theunens, the -- the issue we are dealing with here is the

 2    structure of the SRS, and many of these documents are referred to in

 3    detail in subsequent parts of the report.  So what I'm trying to focus on

 4    here is really these structural issues.  I'm sorry, we're blaming you,

 5    Mr. Theunens, for doing anything here, but there's a question I think

 6    arise with respect to this report which we should address.

 7            Now, bearing in mind that we should not in public session to

 8    reveal the source of the document, do you know from which archive this

 9    document come?

10       A.   I don't know by heart.  I only -- all I know ask that -- no, I

11    assume it comes from the party archives of the Serbian Radical Party, but

12    I'm not sure of that.

13            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, we'll make submissions on that later

14    on, but I do believe that this is correct, and in the B/C/S version of the

15    document, if you look at the top you will see some of the information that

16    we discussed yesterday in private session which identify which archive

17    this come from.  The point here being that this kind of report was

18    actually sent to -- to --

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Could I please finish my sentence before you I

21    intervene?  Thank you. That this document was available to the War Staff.

22            Mr. Seselj.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, evidently, evidently,

25    Mr. President, the OTP has acquired this document illegally, and it didn't

Page 3874

 1    have to; but the OTP did not get this from the archives of the Serbian

 2    Radical Party.  That's for sure.  And there's no evidence they received it

 3    from the archives.  They never asked for anything from the archives of the

 4    Serbian Radical Party.  Had they asked for something, they might have got

 5    it or they might not, but they never asked.

 6            This is not a secret document.  The Prosecutor has Exhibit 958.

 7    This was disclosed to us before this witness came to testify, and you see

 8    an article from issue number 12 of the Serbian Radical Party, dated

 9    February 1992, and the Prosecutor does not know about this even though

10    they got it themselves and yet it's published in there.  And yet they are

11    presenting a document they acquired illegally.

12            I'm not challenging the authenticity of this document, but I'm

13    challenging its legality, the way in which it has acquired, and yet here

14    you have it published periodical and even illustrated with photographs.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We discovered that

16    this report was published, and we also discover that this report was

17    handed over to a member of the OTP.

18            What matters is not how the report was communicated.  What matters

19    is what this report says.

20            Mr. Marcussen, we have five minutes before the break.

21            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Now, in terms of the

22    structure and functioning the War Staff, the next issue I was going to

23    attack with the witness, so to speak, is the issue of deployment of SRS

24    volunteers.  And again we, I think, have discussed some of these documents

25    before, but what I'll try to do is to go through one, two, three -- seven

Page 3875

 1    documents relevant to this issue, ask briefly the expert to -- to explain

 2    the relevance of these documents, and then I'm going to seek the admission

 3    of the documents.  I think in the interests of time it might be useful to

 4    get through the documents and then discuss the conclusion that is flow

 5    from this.

 6       Q.   Mr. Theunens, first I'd like to look at Exhibit 609.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which binder is this, please?

 8            MR. MARCUSSEN:  It is in -- in Your Honours' binder it's the next

 9    document in the binder that you have.  I'm essentially moving through the

10    tabs of the binder in the order that you find them there.

11       Q.   Mr. Theunens, we now have the document up on the screen.  Just

12    briefly, what is this document?

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I can't find it

14    here, 609.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 609 came after the report by

16    Radovanovic.  So after number 486.  It's the document that comes right

17    after that one.

18            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And -- and it is displayed on the monitor.  I also

19    just read out what it is.  It says:

20            "Letter of authority.  On behalf of the SRS volunteer unit,

21    commander Radovan Novacic is hereby authorised to coordinate on behalf of

22    the SRS with the Podravska Slatina TO staff and the staff of the Western

23    Slavonia district on issues related to the defence, manpower, and other

24    needs, in cooperation with the SRS Staff.  The commander shall be recalled

25    at the intervention of the SRS War Staff in Belgrade."  And then the

Page 3876

 1    identification number of the person in question.

 2       Q.   Mr. Theunens, what does this show us about how volunteers were

 3    deployed on the ground and under whose authority they fell?

 4       A.   Your Honours, this document shows that the SRS War Staff is -- has

 5    the authority to appoint commanders to a group of SRS volunteers who are

 6    deployed on the field, and also to what is called coordinate on behalf of

 7    the SRS the activities of these volunteers with the local Serb Podravska

 8    Slatina TO staff.

 9       Q.   And if we move on to the next document which is 690.  And again

10    this would be the next document in the binder.  We have here an order

11    issued by the chief of the War Staff, and now we have it up on the screen.

12            Mr. Theunens, is this a document that you've also used and does it

13    show the same kind of authority by the War Staff?

14       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  This document is used on page 134 of the

15    second part of the report.

16       Q.   And the next document I'd like the witness to look at is 657, and

17    that also is marked for identification as P23.

18            Again, Mr. Theunens, is this a document that illustrates the point

19    you make about the manner in which SRS volunteers are being deployed on

20    the ground?

21       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  And this specific document deals with the

22    situation in Vukovar.

23       Q.   Now, just to follow through with these -- just to illustrate the

24    type of documents and the regions they're being used in, the next document

25    is 500 -- excuse me.  That's incorrect.  Is 782.

Page 3877

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.  Perhaps

 2    we could just keep this document on the screen for a short while, because

 3    this has to do with Vukovar and the Leva Supoderica detachment.

 4            Witness, this document is a document that stems from the Serbian

 5    Radical Party.  Is addressed presumably to the commander of this

 6    detachment, and it seems that in the first paragraph we read that all the

 7    volunteers are placed under the command of this commander with a view to

 8    protecting Vukovar; is that right?

 9            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document seems to be saying

11    that the SRS War Staff has appointed Slobodan Katic, "a brave and

12    experienced soldier from Belgrade," him commander of the volunteers in

13    Vukovar.  Is this what this document says?

14            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, in military terms what

16    conclusions do you draw?

17            THE WITNESS:  Go we could scroll a little bit downwards to see the

18    date of the document.  So this document is dated 9th of November.  At that

19    moment the situation in Vukovar is as follows, and the details can be

20    found in my report:  We have as the main unit in the area south of the

21    Vuka river, we have the Guards Motorised Brigade, which also constitutes

22    the command of Operational Group south.  Operational Group south

23    constitutes of the Guards Motorised Brigade the 80th motorised brigade,

24    units of the TO of the Republic of Serbia as well as --

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down, Witness, please.

Page 3878

 1            THE WITNESS:  I apologise.  As well as local Serb TO units,

 2    including the TO Vukovar and the Leva Supoderica detachment.

 3            I mentioned yesterday that all these units are organised in an

 4    operational manner whereby the operation group consists of a number of

 5    Assault Detachment and the assault detachments consist of a number of

 6    assault groups.  The assault groups more or less correspond with the JNA

 7    companies, i.e., companies of the guards moment raised brigade, but they

 8    are reinforced with other forces, local Serb TO, reservists and so on,

 9    including, for example, the Leva Supoderica detachment.  So Leva

10    Supoderica is part of a JNA-led assault group, but Leva Supoderica as such

11    is a SRS volunteer detachment which is commanded by somebody of the SRS

12    and somebody who had been appointed by the War Staff.

13            Now, I know from the events in Vukovar that the command of the

14    Guards Motorised Brigade was closely involved in the command structure of

15    Leva Supoderica, and if, for example, they did not agree with a person

16    being in command, then a member of -- or the command, at least the

17    commander, but also other members of the command of OG south could

18    intervene to replace the commander of Leva Supoderica.

19            And I remember but this is not addressed in the report, that

20    Slobodan Katic, who was first in charge of the TO Vukovar is replaced at

21    one moment in time by a person known as -- it's Vujovic or Vujanovic, but

22    the name is in my report.  Okay, Milan Lancuzanin has been appointed by

23    the SRS War Staff.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well I shall stop you here

25    because it's now time to have break.  The hearing has gone on for an hour

Page 3879

 1    and a half already.  We shall have a break and meet again at 2.30.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note clarification of

 3    Judge Antonetti's comments it is hard to imagine a French person being

 4    against a German or North American being against a south American because

 5    of the civil war.

 6                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.34 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.  A Judge

 9    has a question to ask.

10            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Theunens, I apologise because

11    I'm a woman and maybe women are not very good until military matters, but

12    out of these documents and out of your testimony I -- I understand, at

13    least that's my personal opinion, that the Serbian Radical Party and its

14    War Staff had authority, I don't know if it was military or political or

15    maybe only moral, I don't know yet, but it had authority as regards the

16    appointment of the units -- of the volunteer units, but then there's

17    another problem at that comes to mind, and maybe you can shed some light

18    on this to help me out.

19            I would like to know whether the commander of the Volunteers Unit,

20    which -- who had been appointed by this War Staff, by the SRS War Staff,

21    was also officially -- had also officially been appointed by the TO,

22    that's for the times when the JNA wasn't there yet, and later on by the

23    JNA.  So that's my first question.

24            Then I have another question, which is still on the same document,

25    the last one we saw.

Page 3880

 1            At one point in time you said that the Leva Supoderica detachment

 2    was part of the Assault Detachments of the JNA.  Is this what I

 3    understood?

 4            So there were assault groups.  Now, who was in command of these

 5    assault groups?

 6            Now you have my two questions, and I would like you to shed some

 7    light on this.

 8            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, to answer the first question first,

 9    the people in charge of a SRS volunteer detachment were appointed or put

10    in that position by the SRS War Staff.  I have not come across examples

11    whereby the JNA -- the JNA commander in the area removes that commander or

12    appoints somebody else.  Of course the matter is a bit more complicated.

13    When we look at the unit in Vukovar at one point Slobodan Katic is the

14    commander of the unit in Vukovar, and his name has appeared in earlier

15    documents.  However, even though commands of the TO should be appointed by

16    the civil authorities according to the legislation as it is existed SFRY,

17    we see at the latest on the 23rd or the 24th of November, based on the

18    information I have seen, which is not included in this report, it is the

19    JNA, and in that specific case Colonel Mile Mrksic, who was the commander

20    of OG south who appointed Vujovic, Miroljub Vujovic to the position of

21    commander of the TO, local Serb TO Vukovar.

22            As far as the second question is concerned, indeed the command of

23    the assault groups that are part of the assault detachments of Operational

24    Group south in Vukovar, October, November 1991, were JNA officers.  They

25    were in fact, if I remember well, all company commanders within the JNA

Page 3881

 1    Guards Motorised Brigade at that time.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have an additional question to

 3    follow up.  Unless I'm mistaken, right now out of all the witnesses that

 4    were called by the Prosecution, you are a military expert.  Everything

 5    you're saying, of course, is of great importance, and we pay great

 6    attention to the questions asked and the answers given, and we will also

 7    pay great attention to your answers to Mr. Seselj during the

 8    cross-examination.

 9            Now, my fellow Judge has asked an absolutely essential question,

10    which is the following:  Who is -- has the final say in appointing these

11    people, these volunteers from the SRS?  So you answered from one aspect

12    talking about the TO and the JNA.  But while I was here listening, to you

13    I was -- another idea came to my mind, especially when you know how

14    Territorial Defence operated in all these republics of the former

15    Yugoslavia where the municipal or regional criterion is extremely

16    important, and so I wondered whether it was possible that in a given

17    municipality X, with locals that would be there, would it be possible to

18    suddenly have someone come up from Belgrade who have been appointed as

19    commander of these locals?  Here I think this -- this brings questions to

20    mine.

21            Let's imagine, for example, in Vukovar there's a lot of locals,

22    and suddenly a commander would be sent from Belgrade to command those

23    locals.  So I think that this brings a question to mind in a -- in the

24    framework of -- if it happened in the framework of a political

25    appointment.

Page 3882

 1            Now, if there is an appointment that has been stamped by the JNA

 2    or later on by the VRS in BiH as of May 1992, then it's easier to

 3    understand that the military authority could impose commanders to the

 4    locals, but we were talking about Vukovar.  It's in the indictment, and we

 5    will have to rule on this question later on.

 6            So regarding Vukovar, the commander of the Leva Supoderica

 7    detachment, a commander who had been appointed at first, could you confirm

 8    that he had been appointed by the TO, by the municipality, if I could say

 9    so.

10            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, the part of the complexity arises from

11    the fact that what you point out is -- is hundred per cent correct but we

12    are dealing with de facto structures.  The TO in Vukovar is not the TO as

13    it existed prior to the conflict, i.e., a TO unit which would respond to

14    the authorities of the Republic of Croatia.  In this particular case local

15    Serbs have established their own TO unit in Vukovar.

16            Milan Lancuzanin, who was the commander of Leva Supoderica,

17    whereby Leva Supoderica is the name of a geographic area in Vukovar; he is

18    a local.  I have no information on the circumstances of his appointment,

19    but I can mention, and that is reported -- that is included in my report,

20    that he's confirmed as the commander of Leva Supoderica by the SRS War

21    Staff.

22            In the SRS party magazine Velika Srbija, it is also mentioned that

23    Leva Supoderica is a Chetnik detachment.

24            At one moment when Milan Lancuzanin is proclaimed Chetnik Vojvoda,

25    and this is on page 119 in part 2 of my report, he is identified as the

Page 3883

 1    commander of the Leva Supoderica Volunteer Unit of the Serbian Radical

 2    Party and the Serbian Chetnik Movement.

 3            So even though Leva Supoderica is a unit of the local Serb TO, it

 4    is also identified in SRS documentation as a SRS document.  And the

 5    complexity of the whole issue lies in the fact that we're talking about de

 6    facto units, self-established units which use de jure names like TO, but

 7    in fact they're something else.

 8            I'm not sure that answered your question, but --

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So assuming that

10    what you're saying is true and cannot be challenged, if we take the

11    assumption that the SRS has authority to appoint commanders with those

12    self-proclaimed TOs or those de facto TOs, let's assume that this is the

13    case, but in terms of military -- in terms -- in terms of the military, I

14    mean, these people, they're not Boy Scouts, you know, they're servicemen.

15    They're soldiers, and they're supposed to fight with weapons, with

16    ammunition.

17            So what I would like to know is the following:  In their military

18    action, when they decide, you know, to carry out a military action, are

19    they doing this under the authority and under the control and under the

20    command and control of the SRS War Staff, or are they -- do they enjoy a

21    great autonomy of action, or is this autonomy of action controlled either

22    by the local TO, even if it's a self-proclaimed TO, or by the JNA, if the

23    JNA is present?

24            So what I would really like to know is the following:  Is there a

25    connection, not in terms of the appointment, but is there a connection a

Page 3884

 1    link as to the military action carried out locally, a link between the

 2    Serbian Radical Party and those people that are in the field?

 3            Let me give you an example.  Let's say that in an area X a unit of

 4    the Serbian Radical Party with a commander that had been appointed by the

 5    SRS, who may even been a Vojvoda, who might have been made Vojvoda, if

 6    during military action he decides to attack Croats or Muslims or who knows

 7    what, capture prisoners, so launch a military action, is he doing this on

 8    the order and instruction given by the SRS?  That's the crux of the

 9    problem.

10            You know that in terms of military -- the military, you know,

11    there's always planning, orders, and things just don't happen at random.

12    So I would like to know the following:  When there's a military action, is

13    it done under the local command of people who might have been appointed,

14    maybe so, by the SRS, or is it controlled by the staff of the -- 100 per

15    cent by the staff of the SRS?  This is absolutely essential here.

16            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, just to -- as an introduction, I would

17    like to mention that this report and my testimony is based on the

18    documents that can be found in the footnotes.  So all I do is -- is

19    explain what is mentioned in those documents.

20            To explain -- to answer your question, the short answer is we have

21    to look at the specific situation.  As you pointed out, military action is

22    normally -- or military activity is determined by orders, written or oral

23    orders.  Whenever we had written orders for the areas discussed in the

24    report, they are included.  From those, we can conclude that for what

25    Vukovar is concerned, as long as OG south exists, and Leva Supoderica is

Page 3885

 1    part of OG south, the military operations are ordered by the commander,

 2    i.e., from the commander of OG south through the chain of command, to the

 3    command of the south group to which-- or in which Leva Supoderica is

 4    included.  However, this subordination does not rule out that Leva

 5    Supoderica maintains certain contacts with the SRS War Staff.  And these

 6    contacts can concern the exchange of operational information, requests for

 7    promotion, and related matters.

 8            When we look at Western Slavonia, however, the matter is more

 9    complicated, because there we see, and I'm summarising what is actually

10    discussed in detail in the report, that there are close contacts between

11    the local Serb TO staffs -- staffs of various municipalities and also the

12    regional local Serb TO staff on one hand and the SRS War Staff on the

13    other hand, for example, for the provision of manpower for the local Serb

14    TO in Western Slavonia.  And in the exchange of information we see that

15    the SRS War Staff imposes certain conditions to the local Serb TO before

16    the volunteers of the SRS can be sent.  We can also see from these

17    documents that it is the SRS War Staff who appoints people who are to be

18    in charge of these volunteers.

19            I make a leap now to Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the situation in

20    Sarajevo after May 1992, where we see that the relationship between SRS

21    volunteer detachments in Sarajevo, and there are four, and we will discuss

22    them later, and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps is, to say the least,

23    complicated because there is one example -- or there are several examples

24    where the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps complains about the

25    behaviour of SRS volunteers.  However, when General Mladic, chief of the

Page 3886

 1    Main Staff of the VRS, orders to arrest one of the SRS volunteers, and I'm

 2    talking now about Vasilije Vidovic, also known as Vaske, the local VRS

 3    commander says, well, actually there's no need to arrest him because he is

 4    very useful doing operations.  And Vaske clearly been appointed not by the

 5    VRS but by the SRS War Staff.

 6            And maybe one last element you spoke about that these were all

 7    people with military background.  I just would like to point out that, for

 8    example, in Vukovar Lancuzanin, in an article in Velika Srbija, was

 9    described as a carpenter, and Miroljub Vujovic was a taxi driver.  They

10    were -- they obviously did their military service but they didn't have the

11    same level of military education and training as JNA officers.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to my fellow

13    Judge because she has a question, and then to Mr. Seselj, who wants to

14    take the floor.

15            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, please one last

16    question.  You're talking about self-proclaim, de facto, so regarding the

17    TO in Krajina controlled by the "Serbian rebels."  So I'd like to know

18    whether the Serbian law wasn't still applied there?  It wasn't on the

19    Serbian TO, on the deployment of volunteers and so on?  So you're saying

20    de facto, but de facto in relation to the authority that Croatia could

21    have had, is that it?  Thank you.

22            THE WITNESS:  Maybe for the record I can reply that indeed the

23    authorities of the SAO Krajina in August 1991 adopted a decision to apply

24    the law of defence of the Republic of Serbia on the territory of the SAO

25    Krajina.  And if I remember well, similar decisions were taken in the SAO

Page 3887

 1    SBWS.  So when I use de facto as the Judge pointed out from the point of

 2    view of the Croatian authorities.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Marcussen.

 4    You will have the floor, but Mr. Seselj would like to say something on a

 5    particular topic, and I know which one.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for Mr. Seselj.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have three brief objections,

 8    Judges.  I couldn't interrupt you when you were putting your questions,

 9    but answering your questions off the top of his head, the witness

10    overstepped by far the content of his expert report.  He went far beyond

11    it.  There are things that he said which are not contained in the report

12    and for which there is no evidence.

13            He said at one point Slobodan Katic was the head of the

14    Territorial Defence.  This concerns Vukovar he has no evidence to support

15    this, please ask him to provide it; further he said that the Serbian

16    Radical Party confirmed the command of Milan Lancuzanin Kameni over the

17    Leva Supoderica detachment.  Please ask the witness to provide evidence

18    for this.

19            And thirdly, he has just stated that the War Staff of the Serbian

20    Radical Party appointed Vasilije Vidovic Vaske as the commander of the

21    volunteers in Vogosca and Ilijas.  Please ask him to provide any evidence

22    he may have to support this.  He has to base these claims on evidence.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Admittedly these are questions

24    that could be put during cross-examination, but to try and see where we

25    stand, because this is rather complex, I think it is better that the

Page 3888

 1    witness answers straight away.

 2            Now, you have understood as far as Mr. Katic is concerned, who

 3    according to you had been appointed commander of this detachment, what did

 4    you base this on?

 5            Now, as far as Kameni is concerned, he seemingly also would have

 6    been appointed by the SRS.  Which document can you put forward in support

 7    of this?

 8            And the third point which had to do with Vidovic, once again what

 9    evidence do you have to support that?

10            THE WITNESS:  For the first question, Your Honours, the position

11    of Slobodan Katic as commander of the TO, I remember that TO Vukovar from

12    the evidence that was given in the Vukovar trial.  However, from 65 ter

13    number 657 that was discussed earlier today, which is an a SRS War Staff

14    document, it states that Slobodan Katic is the commander of the volunteers

15    in Vukovar.

16            There is also 65 -- excuse me, MFI P25, which states that Katic is

17    the Chetnik commander Vukovar, whereby to come back to a previous question

18    you asked --

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as far as Slobodan

20    Katic is concerned, this document which I have before me, 657, it does

21    state that he is commander of the volunteers, but he don't state that he

22    is the commander of the detachment.  Do you understand the difference?

23    It's not quite the same to -- when you're commander of volunteers unit and

24    a commander of a detachment, that's not the same thing.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 3889

 1    may, Mr. President.  Now the witness is refers to a document signed by

 2    Katic as the Chetnik commander for Vukovar.  You may recall that this is a

 3    document dating from the time after the liberation of Vukovar when Katic

 4    remained to live in Vukovar.  When Goran Stoparic testified we established

 5    this definitely.  So the document dates from the period after the

 6    liberation of Vukovar, not during the fighting for Vukovar.  The man

 7    stayed there.  He remained residing there.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which documents -- document

 9    appoints Katic commander of this unit?  Not after the fact, not after the

10    events in Vukovar.

11            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I will try and clarify.  I remember

12    from the evidence that was presented in the Vukovar trial that

13    Slobodan Katic was the commander of the local Serb TO in Vukovar until

14    sometimes in October or November 1991.  And for those who would like to

15    see the details about that, I think there is the testimony of Katic as a

16    Defence witness in that trial.

17            What I've done afterwards, I referred to 65 ter number 657, which

18    dates from the 9th of November, 1991.  Just to clarify, Vukovar fell on

19    the 18th, so this is amidst the operations.  This document states that the

20    SRS War Staff has appointed Slobodan Katic as the commander of the

21    volunteers in Vukovar.

22            So I hope -- this is the information I can provide in relation to

23    Katic.

24            The relation -- the information in relation to Lancuzanin, I would

25    have to look in my report to give you the concrete reference.  But, for

Page 3890

 1    example, on page 117 -- on English page 117 in part 2, mention is made of

 2    an interview with Branislav Vakic, who was also a senior SRS volunteer

 3    when he talks about the fact that one group of Chetniks had already been

 4    deployed on the approach to Vukovar -- or to the town, but it's Vukovar,

 5    under the command of Milan Lancuzanin.

 6            Furthermore, there is a reference -- when you look at the order

 7    for the -- as I mentioned, the proclamation of Lancuzanin to Chetnik

 8    Vojvoda, his title is described as commander of the Leva Supoderica

 9    Volunteer Unit of the Serbian Radical Party and the Serbian Chetnik

10    Movement.

11            My understanding was that Lancuzanin, having already living -- or

12    living already in Vukovar prior to the start of the operations established

13    his own unit, but thanks to his links with the SRS, he obtained additional

14    manpower.  So not only volunteers but volunteers from -- volunteers from

15    Vukovar but also people from outside Vukovar, in particularly Serbia.  And

16    based on the fact that Milan Lancuzanin is mentioned as the commander of

17    Leva Supoderica in several SRS documents, I concluded from that that he

18    was confirmed as the commander of Leva Supoderica by the SRS.

19            Coming now to Vaske, we would have to go to the Sarajevo section

20    in part 2 of the report.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll get back to Kameni.  In

22    any case, this man Kameni, if nobody calls him to testify, the Trial

23    Chamber can ask this gentleman to come and testify.

24            That said, we know that Kameni is a person from Vukovar.  He

25    wasn't sent by Belgrade.  He was from Vukovar.  We know that he becomes

Page 3891

 1    the commander of that detachment, but he might have become commander

 2    without the SRS, the Serbian Radical Party, having had a hand in this.  He

 3    might have been a commander before his personal merits, which I think I

 4    acknowledged by the Serbian Radical Party that appoint him Vojvoda.  Very

 5    well.  But as far as Kameni is concerned, this person may have developed

 6    his career inside the unit without this necessarily having had anything to

 7    do with the SRS, and the SRS may have had nothing to do with his promotion

 8    in the military, but his sheer qualities were such that the SRS decided to

 9    appoint him and give had him this title of Vojvoda.

10            It is very difficult -- it is difficult for us to understand what

11    is going on, because depends from which angle you look at it, of course,

12    and the consequences aren't the same.

13            If you put yourself in the shoes of the SRS and he is the man who

14    is running the show, this means, of course, that his responsibility can be

15    alleged, or we're talking about a political party that is playing a

16    political role, a moral role, whatever you want to call it, but where

17    command structure is separate and not under his control.

18            Therefore, there are two alternatives which can be taken into

19    account here.  Which alternative do you choose?

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a short comment.  The

21    Prosecution is intentionally hiding an important document here.  The

22    document will show me while I was testifying in the Milosevic trial, and

23    it is an order by the commander of the 1st Guards Mechanised Motorised

24    Brigade or commander of Sector South for the volunteers of the Serbian

25    Radical Party to be deployed in the Leva Supoderica detachment.  The

Page 3892

 1    Prosecutor has that document but doesn't wish to show it in this trial,

 2    whereas it was shown in the previous trial.

 3            The commander of the 1st Guards Brigade issued an order that the

 4    volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party coming to Vukovar should go to the

 5    Leva Supoderica detachment, and I'm sure that this expert witness had that

 6    document in his hands too.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you answer my

 8    question and in fact in Mr. Seselj's comment, in other words, a document

 9    was tendered in the Milosevic trial, document which pertained in this

10    particular issue.

11            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, the documents I reviewed do not allow

12    to conclude how Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni, became the

13    commander of Leva Supoderica.  However, the documents show that Leva

14    Supoderica is a Chetnik detachment, and this document I'm citing is an

15    article which was published in Velika Srbija titled "Serbian Vukovar will

16    live on."

17            On page 108 of the second part of the report, I mention a

18    handwritten letter bearing a stamp of the Vukovar TO which deals with and

19    I quote, "The legalisation of the functioning of the unit detachment Leva

20    Supoderica."  This letter is 65 ter number 590.

21            In the letter it is also stated that Milan Lancuzanin will be the

22    commander of Leva Supoderica.

23            Now, when I said earlier that I don't -- I cannot establish the

24    circumstances for the appointment of Lancuzanin, I mean -- I meant by that

25    that I have not been able to find information on the person who signed the

Page 3893

 1    letter in 65 ter number 590.  We know it's a Dusan Filipovic, but I have

 2    not been able to find more information on that person, as I said.

 3            To answer Mr. Seselj's question, I -- I would be very happy to see

 4    the document.  It may well be that it has been presented in the Milosevic

 5    trial, but I don't remember that I came across this document while

 6    preparing for this report.  Now, if we can show the document during

 7    cross-examination I think that would be very helpful in order to establish

 8    its importance.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sure he will do that, I

10    assume.

11            Now, the third point.  The -- Vidovic's position.

12            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.  We would have to go to the

13    Sarajevo section in my report which starts the second part English page

14    220.

15            Now, I think the best information on the links between Vidovic and

16    the SRS could be found in -- I only have the 65 ter number, but 65 ter

17    number 2030, which the Chetnik Vojvoda proclamation order because it will

18    include a short CV of Vidovic, but I don't remember the exhibit number it

19    has received.

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  It is P218, Your Honours.

21            THE WITNESS:  So I think the best would be to have a look at that

22    document and then we can all see from the document what the CV of Vidovic

23    is as well as his relation with the SRS War Staff.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and move on, please.

25            Mr. Marcussen, I'm sorry if we ask these questions, but we have

Page 3894

 1    all understood that military issues are extremely important, and for the

 2    time being we have the witness in front of us, the expert witness in front

 3    of us.

 4            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, and I hope he is of assistance to -- to

 5    the Court.  I believe I have you've used less than three of the five hours

 6    that I have with the witness, so I'm just concerned whether we're going to

 7    have the witness survive this, but we will move on quickly.

 8            Your Honours, we were on the issue of deployment of volunteers,

 9    and I believe we had reached Exhibit number 782, which maybe we can also

10    call up on the screen.

11            Now, this is a document that I think we can pass fairly quickly.

12    It's an authorisation from the War Staff for the purpose of establishing

13    law and order and control in Western Slavonia.

14       Q.   Mr. Theunens, if you have the document in front of you, is this

15    one of these documents that you have also looked at with respect to the

16    issue of deployment of volunteers and, if so, what does it show?

17       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  This document is also included in my

18    report.

19            The document shows that the chief of the SRS War Staff has the

20    authority to appoint somebody, in this case a Milan Dobrilovic, to

21    establish law and order and control in Western Slavonia.  He is also

22    authorised to supervise all the volunteers in cooperation with a

23    Colonel Jovan Trbojevic in command of the Territorial Defence.

24            Now, in the section, Western Slavonia, in my report I explained

25    that Jovan Trbojevic is a JNA officer who has been appointed to be the

Page 3895

 1    command of the local Serb Territorial Defence in Western Slavonia.

 2       Q.   Now, the next three exhibits go together, so if Your Honours would

 3    bear with me while I go through the three documents with the witness.  I

 4    would be grateful.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Witness, my

 6    colleague was telling me something which is important.

 7            This document which we have before us which shows that

 8    Milan Dobrilovic is -- has a particular position.  This document clearly

 9    shows that he needs to work in cooperation with the commander of the

10    Territorial Defence.  He's not the big boss.  A colonel is also there.

11    And furthermore, if you look at the title of the document, it is not an

12    order.  It says "Authorisation."  I don't know that -- what this might

13    tell us.  This could also be for information purposes or a statement or

14    proclamation or -- it doesn't say "Order," an order that needs to be put

15    into effect.

16            What we can see is that Dobrilovic has been given powers by the

17    SRS, but this doesn't mean that there is a military connection between the

18    SRS and the local unit.

19            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, the -- the use of the

20    word "Authorisation" in a written document to me shows that

21    Milan Dobrilovic can use it almost as a letter of authority.  This

22    document shows that Dobrilovic has authority.  So if -- when he goes to

23    Western Slavonia and even if he collaborates with Jovan Trbojevic.  Well,

24    when he go and see the SRS volunteers in the area he can use this document

25    to tell them, "Look, I have been sent by the SRS War Staff --"

Page 3896

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have another question, a

 2    follow-up question.  We have several documents that are issued by the

 3    Serbian Radical Party.  So far no one has put a question about this.  I

 4    was waiting to get more information before putting the question.

 5            Now that we have this document before us, let's look into the

 6    reasons why Milan Dobrilovic was appointed here.  This is with a view to

 7    establishing law, order, and control.  That is the reason why, law, order,

 8    and control, and we have a swathe of documents that are issued by the SRS;

 9    and these always refer to law, discipline, reminders of the law, and every

10    time I look at all these documents, I might be right, I might be wrong, I

11    have the feeling that the Serbian Radical Party was extremely concerned

12    about the fact that these "volunteers" should respect law, order, and

13    anybody who failed to comply with disciplinary measures had to be notified

14    to the SRS.  In all these documents, we always see that there is a

15    reminder of this, and this is particularly striking, because this is the

16    object of this authorisation.  Through military action to capture

17    prisoners, not to capture people, but enemy soldiers.  It does not say

18    that one should -- this is a -- for Dobrilovic the obligation to have law

19    and order respected.  It's not a matter of attacking people, capturing

20    people, killing, or affecting the integrity of people or of people's

21    property.  All the documents we have seen are in the same vein.

22            So have you noticed this or has this escaped you?

23            THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honours, I'm very conscious of that, but I

24    would like to clarify focusing on three aspects.

25            First of all in the military in very general terms in an order has

Page 3897

 1    to be repeated several times like for example even if it's an

 2    authorisation but still this emphasis on the requirement to establish law

 3    and order, it means that there is a problem, because otherwise there's no

 4    need to repeat or to reissue orders.  So the fact that this aspect is

 5    re-emphasised several times to me would first show there is a problem.

 6            Secondly, that's maybe more related to the testimony here, there

 7    are many more documents included in the report.  We have obviously -- or

 8    the Prosecutor has obviously only chosen a few ones.  I can assure you

 9    that in the document -- in the report I also have documents from JNA

10    officers in the same area who actually complain about the behaviour of SRS

11    volunteers and who refer to the commission of crimes like looting, burning

12    of houses and other serious crimes which they include in their reports to

13    their superiors and where they sometimes ask their superiors to do

14    something about it.  And if you wish so, I can point some of these

15    documents out, but for Western Slavonia, for example, on page 137 and

16    following, especially on page 138, we have the -- the MFI P187 and related

17    to that we have 65 ter number 958 and 933, where the involvement or the

18    alleged involvement of an individual known as Jovan Kulic, who according

19    to an SRS publication was a member of the Kragujevac Chetnik detachment,

20    whereby Kragujevac is an important city in Serbia, and so there are

21    various documents from -- from the military as well as from the military

22    prosecutor on involvement of Kulic in crimes, whereby Kulic is also

23    identified as a self-proclaimed captain who robbed and looted in Western

24    Slavonia in -- in a 5th JNA corps confidential document which corresponds

25    with 65 ter numbers 933.

Page 3898

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're absolutely right.

 2    There is a great deal of documents showing that volunteers of the SRS may

 3    have committed crimes that may be described as criminal.  No one denies

 4    that.  It's obvious.  But what we find is that the SRS, on numerous

 5    occasions, reminds everyone that there are crimes committed, that measures

 6    need to be taken, that law and order need to be re-established.  It's not

 7    an encouragement to continue with these things.

 8            In any army you have black sheep, including in the best and most

 9    famous armies in the world.  You always have them.  And this is even more

10    so when you're dealing with volunteers who have not been properly trained

11    or educated and who might be tempted to commit crimes.

12            The impression I get is that after a number of crimes were

13    committed and everybody was aware of these crimes, a general conclusion

14    is -- is drawn, that is that all SRS volunteers are criminals, and

15    therefore that -- the fact that crimes were committed comes as no

16    surprise.  That seems to be the theory you develop in your report.

17            It might be the case.  It might not be the case.  We would need to

18    look into these crimes very thoroughly to determine whether that is the

19    case or not, but does this necessarily mean that the SRS was the one who

20    gave the orders for these crimes to be committed in the field?  What do

21    you think?

22            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, as I said before, the report is based

23    on documents.  I have not come across a document where, for example, the

24    Serbian Radical Party orders volunteers to commit crimes.  I would find

25    that quite unusual to put that in a document.

Page 3899

 1            Now, I think whether the volunteers are more likely to commit

 2    crimes than ordinary soldiers, that's a matter where I have an opinion and

 3    views based on my military experience, but I have not addressed that in my

 4    report.  So if you wish, I could elaborate on that, but it's not addressed

 5    in my report.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  What matters for the Judges

 7    is the following:  We have all these documents issued by the SRS.  Are

 8    these documents that encourage the volunteers of the SRS to respect law

 9    and order, or are these documents that encourage them to commit crimes?

10            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I believe that it -- it's not possible

11    to categorise these documents, the SRS documents I have reviewed in such a

12    way.  There are indeed documents like this one to -- that call for

13    establishing law and order and control, but I could also say that actually

14    law and order and control only addresses the situation among the SRS

15    volunteers and not law and order in general as we would understand it.

16            In addition, in the report when discussing the situation in

17    Vukovar and also the -- the role of Milan Lancuzanin, I have included some

18    quotations of an article from the party magazine of the SRS, from Velika

19    Srbija, whereby the -- the treatment of a prisoner of war is being

20    discussed in rather graphic terms.  And this article can be found on

21    page -- English page 122 in the second part of the report, and this

22    article corresponds with 65 ter number 957.

23            And, okay, Velika Srbija is the official party magazine whereby

24    Mr. Seselj is the founder and the editor of the magazine.  And the article

25    I mentioned doesn't make a direct call to commit crimes, but the

Page 3900

 1    information that is mentioned does not suggest a call to respect law and

 2    order or to abide by the Geneva Conventions pertaining to the treatment of

 3    prisoners of war either.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  That's what you say.

 5    We'll probably come back to that later.

 6            Mr. Marcussen, I know that you've used up three hours.  You have

 7    two hours left.

 8            Yes, Mr. Seselj.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As another name was mentioned,

10    Judge, I think that the witness is duty-bound to provide information

11    straight away since Jovo Ostanic [phoen] was a member of the Serbian

12    Radical Party and whether he was in Vukovar as a volunteer of the Serbian

13    Radical Party.

14            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, the accused is commenting and -- and

15    requesting the witness for information which he can lead during his part

16    of the examination.  This is not proper for the accused to intervene in

17    this way.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  You'll come

19    back to that issue during cross-examination.  The Trial Chamber has been

20    very flexible so far, but the problem is that we'll use a lot of time if

21    you keep making interruptions, and then there could be -- an imbalance

22    between the two parties.

23            Mr. Marcussen.

24            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   The next three documents, as I mentioned, go together.  They are

Page 3901

 1    in your binder next to each other.  The first one is 65 ter number 570.

 2            Mr. Theunens, is this -- this is a request for reinforcement, and

 3    I think you have already explained these three documents when you

 4    testified last week.  Could you briefly tell us what is it these next

 5    three exhibits show, and then we will walk through them afterwards.

 6       A.   Your Honours, these three documents show an exchange of

 7    information between the Podravska Slatina local Serb TO staff and the

 8    Serbian Radical Party War Staff.

 9            MR. MARCUSSEN:  It's in binder 1, Your Honours, towards the end.

10            THE WITNESS:  So I will repeat --

11            MR. MARCUSSEN:

12       Q.   Mr. Theunens, yes.

13       A.   So these three documents represent an exchange of information

14    between the Podravska Slatina so Western Slavonia local Serb TO staff and

15    the SRS War Staff for the provision of manpower to the Podravska Slatina

16    local certain TO by the SRS War Staff.

17       Q.   And I believe you mentioned these yesterday, or on Thursday last

18    week.  So the first document, 570, is a request for volunteers.  Then the

19    next document, 582, I believe you have mentioned this is a response, and I

20    am correct, what you have noted here this is a document where certain

21    conditions are put on the deployment of volunteers?

22       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  So the deputy chief and the SRS War Staff

23    replies to the request, and he says,  "Well we can fulfil the request

24    provided that three conditions are fulfilled."  They deal with technical

25    matters, but also the third point, "coordination with our unit command,"

Page 3902

 1    and "our" then refers to the SRS volunteers.

 2       Q.   And am I correct that this is one of these type of documents that

 3    you refer to to illustrate that SRS units deployed were -- had an internal

 4    command structure and then dealt with either Territorial Defence or JNA,

 5    so to speak, toward the outside --

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 7    a leading question, Mr. President.

 8            MR. MARCUSSEN:  This has been answered several times and --

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.  You can't

10    ask questions that way.  I am warning you.  You can't pose leading

11    questions, and I have the right to interrupt you and object.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, apparently your

13    question was a leading question.

14            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes.  The expert is an expert witness.  He has

15    already set out this in his report.

16       Q.   But anyway, Mr. Theunens, what conclusion do you draw from this

17    kind of document as to the relationship between the internal organisation

18    of the SRS units and the command structure they might be fitting into

19    above the unit so to speak?

20       A.   Well, the conclusion I draw from this and actually we addressed

21    that earlier is that even though during operations these volunteers are

22    subordinate to the JNA or they are part of the local Serb TO, they still

23    maintain certain relations, certain links with the War Staff, and I would

24    just like to refer in this context to the document we discussed earlier

25    today whereby Zoran Rankic went on a fact-finding mission to Western

Page 3903

 1    Slavonia on the orders of Mr. Seselj and the War Staff.

 2            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And then, Your Honours, if we turn to the next

 3    document which is number 594.

 4       Q.   I believe, Mr. Theunens, this is then the document you referred to

 5    in your report as being the acceptance of Mr. Rankic letter; is that

 6    correct?

 7       A.   Yes, that is correct, Your Honours.  So the local Serb TO staff in

 8    Podravska Slatina accepts the conditions imposed by Zoran Rankic and also

 9    provides information on how this would be done.

10            MR. MARCUSSEN:  So, Your Honours, this is the end of the documents

11    I'm going to show the witness on the specific issue of the manner of

12    deployment of the volunteers, and I'd like now to ask for the admission of

13    the following exhibits, and I'd like to request that they be placed under

14    seal.

15            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before we -- before we move into the question of

16    admission of these documents, if I could just ask the witness to turn back

17    to Exhibit 65 ter -- sorry, not exhibit but 65 ter number 582.  Thank you.

18            The third condition which is being put by Mr. Zoran Rankic that

19    the TO establishes "coordination with our unit command," what does that

20    mean?

21            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I will start with -- with the

22    definition as it existed in JNA doctrine of coordination.  Coordination

23    does not imply subordination, but coordination is imposed by superior

24    command.  For example, if two battalions of a brigade have to coordinate

25    their activity or their operations, this coordination will be imposed by

Page 3904

 1    the brigade commander, and it will be aimed at harmonising the activity.

 2    So that's the military significance of coordination.

 3            Now, Zoran Rankic also uses the word "coordination," drawing the

 4    parallel with the military definition.  One could conclude that Rankic

 5    asks the TO staff in Podravska Slatina to harmonise its activities --

 6    excuse me, to harmonise the activities of the Podravska Slatina TO staff

 7    and the activities of the SRS volunteer unit that is the command -- excuse

 8    me, the command of the SRS volunteer unit that is about to be deployed.

 9            Now, how this was done in practice, I would then like to refer you

10    to the other documents in Western Slavonia -- on Western Slavonia that is

11    discussed in the report.

12            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  We have seen those, but it still leaves at

13    least me with an unclear impression of the command relations in the TO

14    after the arrival of the volunteers from SRS.

15            Apparently the volunteers kept their own unit command, and

16    Mr. Rankic puts up as a condition for the dispatchment of these volunteers

17    that the TO unit coordinates with the unit command.

18            In practical terms, Mr. Theunens, how would this work out?  Who

19    would give the orders to organise the combat activities in which these

20    volunteers would take part, and who would be in command of the time and

21    the manner and the place where the attacks should be launched?

22            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, normally there would be single

23    command, and if JNA and TO were in the same area, the JNA commanding

24    officers would be in command.

25            Now, the SRS volunteers that are being sent are part of a separate

Page 3905

 1    unit which is a sub-unit of a higher-level unit whereby, similar as it was

 2    in Vukovar, they are pat of the chain of command.  So the SRS volunteers

 3    are part of the TO and receive the orders for combat activity or actions

 4    and operations from the next upper level in the TO/JNA chain of command.

 5    However, this document, similar as the others, also indicates that even

 6    though they are subordinated to the TO or even part of the TO, they

 7    maintain particular relations with the SRS War Staff.

 8            Now, I have not seen an example of the SRS War Staff issuing an

 9    order for dealing with operational matters.  For example, like tomorrow

10    you will attack village X.  I have not seen that.  However, from JNA

11    documents I have seen that they stated, well, at one day the volunteers

12    withdrew or they left.

13            Now, we cannot rule out that they left or withdrew out of their

14    own initiative, but it's more likely that actually they withdrew or they

15    undertook a certain activity following orders from the SRS War Staff if

16    there were no orders from the JNA, because in the military activities and

17    operations imply orders.  So -- and if it's not the JNA who orders, it has

18    to be another body that has -- that is in a position to order.  And a

19    document like this one suggests that the SRS War Staff is in such a

20    position.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question of my fellow Judge

22    is very similar to my concerns.  I think we should look again at this

23    document.  It is essential.

24            If we've understood what you've told us so far, you know, and of

25    course with all the documents we've seen so far, it seems that the Serbian

Page 3906

 1    Radical Party in 1991, let's take October, for example, since we have a

 2    document dating October, this party has the possibility of sending

 3    volunteers on the field.  That's something we know.

 4            Then second, this may be contested, there are documents going in

 5    one direction, documents going in the other direction, but if need be the

 6    SRS can supply weapons and some logistics.  So I think this is carved in

 7    stone.

 8            Okay.  So let's take a look at this document we have here.  We

 9    have this Mr. Rankic addressing himself to the Territorial Defence of this

10    municipality, of the municipality of Podravska Slatina, and this is what

11    he's saying, calling them dear brothers, which probably means they're very

12    close, but this is what he's saying:  He fully understands the problems

13    that they are facing, and he adds, "In order to help you, you must meet a

14    number of criterion, certain conditions," and there are three

15    conditions.  "We want to know what is the situation regarding food,

16    logistics.  We want to be -- we want to know about weapons, disposition of

17    troops on the terrain, and we also want to know about the coordination

18    with our unit command," which is probably the War Staff.  And Mr. Rankic

19    asks, "If you can fulfil all these conditions, we will supply you with the

20    men you need, volunteers."

21            As far as I'm concerned, these documents seem to show that the SRS

22    can provide assistance in terms of men, maybe also in terms of resources,

23    but not at any condition.  They want to assess the situation first to see

24    whether this assistance should be sent out or not.  So here it's obvious

25    that the SRS will provide help and assistance.

Page 3907

 1            Now, helping does not mean that -- in military terms, you know,

 2    that they're also going to be in charge of command and control and,

 3    furthermore, of directing the military operations.

 4            Do you agree with this or not?

 5            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours, I agree with you.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  One last question

 7    now.  Have you ever found documents that would set out that the SRS played

 8    a role to trigger off or maybe to direct or to control or to command the

 9    military actions that were carried out on the ground through planning,

10    through risk assessment, through mobilisation of forces, because on their

11    own, you know, these volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party wouldn't be

12    enough.  So do you -- have you ever found documents that would really

13    establish that the SRS played a driving role in the decision-making

14    process when it comes to military operations that were carried out on the

15    ground?

16            Let's not talk about Vukovar.  I don't think you can answer the

17    question using Vukovar, because we know that there was some kind of

18    control, and the -- it wasn't the SRS that directed the military operation

19    on the ground.  You said yourself that there was a unity of command there.

20            Did you find documents that really set out, establish, that the

21    SRS not only assisted the TOs, you know, through logistical help,

22    resources or men, but actually played a role in directing or triggering

23    off the military operations regarding these volunteers that were set out

24    on the ground?

25            I mean, we've been coming back to this for days now, but this is

Page 3908

 1    really of the essence.

 2            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I understand the importance of this

 3    issue, and I'm afraid I'm going to provide the same reply that I gave

 4    earlier, that is that I have not seen documents where the SRS War Staff or

 5    anybody else from the SRS issues orders for specific, call it tactical or

 6    operational matters.  Like, for example, as we have JNA orders for Vukovar

 7    to attack part X, Y, Z of the city.  I have not seen such documents.

 8            However, I have attempted to include in the report documents that

 9    show that the SRS doesn't only recruit and assist in the dispatching of

10    volunteers but also, as you mentioned the word "control," control can be

11    seen in the term "inspection," i.e., to see to what extent an order has

12    been implemented.  We spoke this morning about the report Zoran Rankic

13    sent to the SRS War Staff following the order he had received from

14    Mr. Seselj and the SRS War Staff to carry out a fact-finding mission in

15    Western Slavonia.

16            Now, if -- I mean to me at that suggests that even -- no.  I

17    apologise.  I would rephrase that.

18            If the volunteers had been ordinary volunteers as foreseen in the

19    law, there would be no reference to the political party these volunteers

20    belonged to.  They would just have been ordinary volunteers, would be

21    integrated into existing JNA or TO units.  We see that the emphasis is

22    late on the fact these are SRS volunteers.  In most of the JNA documents I

23    have seen or VRS documents where we talk about or SRS volunteers are

24    mentioned, the fact they belong to the SRS is emphasised by indicates to

25    me that this is linked, this allegiance has an importance.

Page 3909

 1            The documents I have included in the report also show that members

 2    of the SRS War Staff or senior SRS volunteers are called commanders of the

 3    SRS volunteers in a number of areas where these volunteers are active, for

 4    example --

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But these

 6    volunteers, did you -- do you have a figure for them?  Do you know how

 7    many there were in 1991, 1992?  Could you give us an assessment?  It's

 8    probably going to be a ballpark figure, but how many are they, 1.000,

 9    10.000, 100.000?  Could you give us some --

10            THE WITNESS:  I would say --

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- Could you give us a figure

12    because this is not an innocent question.

13            THE WITNESS:  I would say that less than 1.000 whereby I would

14    like to emphasis that we see that volunteers, some volunteers move from

15    area to area, and this is in particular to the situation with people who

16    are proclaimed Vojvoda later.  So for example somebody like Branislav

17    Gavrilovic, excuse me, is first active in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

18    Srem, then we see him in Northern Bosnia then we see him in Sarajevo so

19    even this 1.000 it doesn't mean 1.000 different volunteers it's probably

20    much less even though the estimates by the SRS are much higher.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you assess their number

22    altogether as being a thousand at most.

23            THE WITNESS:  It would be a good estimate, yes, Your Honours.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, I was asking this

25    question because this morning I was looking at the Krajisnik judgement

Page 3910

 1    where there's a paragraph on the paramilitary units operating in

 2    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Out of memory, it's -- they said there were about 60

 3    of them in that judgement representing altogether 4.000 to 5.000 people.

 4            So for these SRS you're telling me that there are a thousand

 5    altogether?  So according to you since you're the expert, you're number

 6    one expert at the OTP regarding these issues, so it would be in

 7    Bosnia-Herzegovina do you think there were about 5.000 to 6.000 people

 8    that were attached to paramilitary units?

 9            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, when you give that figure it's on one

10    side, the Serbian side in the conflict, or all parties?

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, just Serbian side.

12            THE WITNESS:  It is possible.  I have not studied all the groups

13    that are known as paramilitaries, but it's possible.  I wouldn't come up

14    with a higher estimate, because in particular on the 28th of July, 1992,

15    after the -- Colonel Tolimir provides a report on paramilitaries and

16    volunteers, so Colonel Tolimir of the Main Staff of the VRS, provides a

17    report on paramilitaries and volunteers, and this is followed by an order

18    from the level of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

19    Herzegovina to subordinate all paramilitaries or volunteers to the VRS or

20    to have them disarmed.  So -- which means that the figure is probably

21    address the situation, yeah, prior to this order or the situation between

22    1992 and 1995.  So a global total.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, because I

24    would like to hand the floor back to Mr. Marcussen.  We talk at length

25    about these Serbian volunteers, you know we've been talking about them for

Page 3911

 1    hours now, and I'm sure it's not about to end, but a thousand persons?  Is

 2    it marginal or is it a significant number in relation to the conflicts

 3    that occurred in Croatia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, maybe even Vojvodina?  Is

 4    it a marginal number or is it an essential number?

 5            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, if you would allow me I would like to

 6    ask from which context.  In which context do you mean marginal or

 7    important whether it's from --

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Military-wise.  Military-wise in

 9    combat, you know, in combat between factions, warring factions.

10            Let me give you an example just to give you a few figures that

11    come to mind.  The 3rd Corps in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the BiH 3rd Corps

12    represents more than 125.000 soldiers.  So what's a handful of volunteers?

13    A thousand volunteers, is it marginal, 1.000 compared to 120.000?  That's

14    the type of comparison I'm looking at.  So these volunteers that we are

15    talking at length about, military-wise was there an important component or

16    was it just a marginal component?

17            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I will refer to the JNA documentation

18    I have reviewed whereby most of the JNA documentation where commanders

19    expressed their views on volunteers.  They have a negative view on

20    volunteers and state, well, their contribution to the combat is almost

21    marginal or non-existent.  However, General Miriksic [phoen], he praised

22    the volunteers after the fall of Vukovar.  General Biorcevic he considered

23    Arkan and his people heroes because they continued where the members of

24    the JNA refused to continued.

25            We discussed earlier from Vaske Vidovic that General Mladic

Page 3912

 1    said --

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Hold on.  Arkan is not the SRS.

 3            THE WITNESS:  No, no, Your Honours.  I'm giving a general reply,

 4    volunteers without making any reference to whether -- to their allegiance.

 5            So in summary JNA and VRS documentation rather negative

 6    assessment.  On the other hand, even if the combat, the impact or the

 7    combat role of these volunteers is limited, I think one should never

 8    underestimate the motivational aspect of the whole issue of volunteers.

 9    Volunteers and in particular the SRS volunteers or Serbian volunteers and

10    particularly the SRS volunteers are fighting for what they call the

11    Serbian cause.  Officially, they are fighting to liberate or to protect

12    the Serbs.  This almost brings us to a question you raised earlier, Your

13    Honours, about guerrilla warfare.  Guerrilla armies are in general much

14    smaller than conventional armies but they have one strength, they have the

15    strength of ideology and ideology as Mao said is actually much more

16    important than structure or weapons.  I would even expand that statement

17    to Serbian volunteers because they're also fighting for --

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm stopping you here

19    because we have a problem with Mao Tse-tung, Mao Zedong.

20            THE WITNESS:  The importance of ideology and especially for the

21    volunteers that their motivation or their ideology is the key issue and

22    when it comes to criminal behaviour, it's not a matter of how many people

23    are involved but mainly what they are doing and for what purposes they are

24    using this ideology, and I think that is the key issue in the whole matter

25    we're discussing.

Page 3913

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's say out of a thousand

 2    Serbian volunteers, which is a ballpark figure, according to you and

 3    according to all the documents that you have perused, reports and so on,

 4    how many committed crimes, 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 50 per cent?  Is

 5    there an order of magnitude?  Ballpark figure again.  You know, that would

 6    give us an ideas to whether it was marginal or essential.

 7            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I haven't conducted any research,

 8    conducted any statistical research, so I wouldn't be able to answer that

 9    question.  I can only refer to JNA and VRS documents where they emphasise

10    the involvement of volunteers in crimes but there are no statistical data

11    or studies as you are looking for included.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have no data to give us

13    and you established no comparisons with crimes that were committed by the

14    other warring factions.  This was not part of your survey.

15            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... I've had

16    statistics in my training and I think all starts and ends with the

17    accuracy of your data and having no access to accurate data I don't have

18    an overall overview of all the crimes that were committed or not in the

19    conflict and by which parties.  So even if I would have attempted, I don't

20    think it would be relevant to come up with such a guess, actually, because

21    it would be highly inaccurate due to the absence of accurate data or

22    figures.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25       Q.   I continue now on the -- with some documents relating to the

Page 3914

 1    arming and equipping -- equipment given to --

 2            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Marcussen, admission?

 3            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour, for reminding me.  Before

 4    we --

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We have lost sight

 6    of what is most important.

 7            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now I would like to request the admission under

 8    seal of the following documents:  609; 690; 657, which is also MFI P23;

 9    782; 570; 582; and 594.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These are all the documents

11    which we have discussed in the presence of the witness; is that right?

12            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, before I move on to the next topic.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Please proceed.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had some objections.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As all these are public documents of

17    the Serbian Radical Party and only the source from which the documents

18    arrived in the OTP is suspect, I demand that all these documents be

19    available to the public in full.  There is no reason for them not to be

20    available to the public, because there is general agreement that we will

21    not investigate the manner in which the OTP came by these documents.

22    Everybody mentioned in the documents is a public figure.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unless I'm mistaken, none of

24    these documents have been asked to be tendered under seal.  609, 690, 670,

25    yes, all of them.

Page 3915

 1            MR. MARCUSSEN:  If I --

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So Mr. Seselj, as

 3    far as what you've just said is concerned, the Trial Chamber has decided

 4    to rule on this after your cross-examination.  So we shall then see which

 5    documents will be made public and which documents will nonetheless remain

 6    under seal.

 7            I cannot answer right now.  I cannot respond to your question

 8    whether these will be admitted under seal or not, but we can already give

 9    an exhibit number of these documents, registrar please.

10            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 609 will be Exhibit

11    number P223.  690 will be Exhibit number P224, 65 ter number 653 will be

12    P23 --

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please start again because

14    there's a mistake.  Please from the beginning again, please.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter number 609 will be

16    Exhibit number P223, 65 ter number 690 will be Exhibit.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please, Registrar.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 609 will be Exhibit number P223; 65

19    ter number 690 Exhibit number P224; 65 ter number 657 will be Exhibit

20    number P23; 65 per number 782 will be Exhibit number P225; 65 ter number

21    570 will be Exhibit number P226; 65 ter number 582 will be Exhibit number

22    P227; and 65 ter number 594 will be Exhibit number P228 all provisionally

23    under seal.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Marcussen,

25    before the break we have five minutes.

Page 3916

 1            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2       Q.   Now, Mr. Theunens, the next topic I would like to move into

 3    concern the arming and equipping of volunteers.  Before we did go into the

 4    actual documents, who -- how -- how were the volunteers, the SRS

 5    volunteers, armed and equipped based on your analysis?

 6       A.   Your Honours, based on the documents I have reviewed for the

 7    report the SRS volunteers received their weapons and equipment from three

 8    organisations consisting of the JNA, the Ministry of Interior the Republic

 9    of Serbia and also the ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.

10            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, I would like now to do as last

11    time, move through the tabs as they come in the binder.  In the interests

12    of time, I'll pass 1913, so the first document I'll ask you to look at is

13    1804.  A lot of these documents are very short --

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, I was

15    waiting for this document 1913 to come up.  I don't think I can overlook

16    this.  I don't think the Prosecutor should be allowed to just skip over it

17    because there's nothing here to show who drew this document up, where,

18    when, what the date is, what does it mean?  It looks as if the Prosecutor

19    might have a composed it himself.  I think I have right to have the

20    meaning of this document explained to me.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well I need to find document

22    1913 in my binder.

23            MR. MARCUSSEN:  It is --

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So let's look at document 1913

25    on the screen, please.

Page 3917

 1            Mr. Marcussen, this document 1913, where does it come from, how

 2    did you get it, and so on and so forth, since this has been disputed.

 3            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the accused is making an objection

 4    to the admission of a document that I have not requested admitted.  Now,

 5    if Your Honours would like me to go into the document I'm happy to do so,

 6    but I've actually not made any request with this respect and it -- but I

 7    mean maybe we should simply use the last three minutes before the break to

 8    cover this document.

 9       Q.   Mr. Theunens --

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you would like to

11    discuss a document, but you're not asking for this document to be

12    tendered.  So what's the point?  What's the point of presenting a document

13    if the Bench cannot use it afterwards, because if the document is not

14    tendered, there will be questions and answers but no more than that.

15            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, I -- as I said, in the interests of

16    time I was going to pass over this document for the time being and see how

17    much time we have at the end because I'm concerned about the time that is

18    available.

19            Now, as I stated, I will be requesting at the end that all the

20    underlying documents get admitted, but I'm at -- I'm at the hands of the

21    Court.  If you would like us to deal with this document, it might be

22    convenient for logistical reasons as it is here.  It mainly deals with

23    training and equipment -- equipping of volunteers.

24       Q.   Mr. Theunens, have you -- have you discussed Exhibit number 1913

25    in your report?

Page 3918

 1       A.   Yes, Your Honours, I have mentioned that document whereby I also

 2    indicated that it is unsigned and that the date is handwritten on the

 3    document.

 4       Q.   And, Mr. Theunens, do you remember on the top -- off the top of

 5    your head where this document come from?

 6       A.   This document was provided by a sensitive source to the

 7    investigator during an interview.

 8       Q.   If -- with respect to the issue of arming and equipping and maybe

 9    training of volunteers, just in short what does this document show?

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President --

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Yes?

12            *THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are not interested mainly in the

13    contents of the document until we learn from what confidential source it

14    comes and what it is.  I know what their confidential source is but they

15    have to say that here to me and to you, that special source whose name is

16    General Aleksandar Vasiljevic, who I have mentioned several times, drew up

17    these documents subsequently for the needs of this trial.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Accused Seselj is telling

19    us that the document was handed over by General Aleksandar Vasiljevic.

20    Can you confirm this?  No?

21            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I should like to ask this to be redacted from the

22    transcript.  The Prosecution cannot have its sensitive sources revealed,

23    and I'm not confirming whether it is correct or not that the document has

24    been provided by that source, but it is impermissible for the accused to

25    say these sort of things in public session.

Page 3919

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Marcussen.

 2    We will have ample time to redact this when necessary.  I have just read

 3    about this person.  Is he a protected witness in this case?  Because if he

 4    is a protected witness in other cases, I know nothing about this.  Perhaps

 5    the accused with his connections knows that this document was drafted by

 6    this general, and he is telling us that so that the Chamber is not under

 7    the impression that it is being manipulated and that documents are being

 8    presented without anyone knowing where these documents come from.

 9            So if this document stems from a witness whom you are going to

10    call to testify, then there's no problem whatsoever.  Then I will redact

11    this part of the transcript.  But if that is not the case, then we face a

12    problem, because protected sources in other cases apply to the other

13    cases, but in this case it is an accused who is being tried.

14            So this document is in support of the JCE in the sense that the

15    SRS allegedly helped volunteers.  So when the judgement is handed down,

16    this could be a very damning document for the accused.

17            So first question, what is the source of the document?  Is the

18    source indicated here or does the source stem from another case?

19            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Assuming that -- as far as I'm aware this document

20    does not come from a witness in this case.  I am reluctant in public

21    session to discuss what source has provided this information to the

22    Tribunal.  I'll be happy to -- to make, for example, a written submission

23    on this issue --

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session

25    in that case.  Let's move into private session.

Page 3920

 1                          [Private session]

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3921











11    Pages 3921-3922 redacted. Private session















Page 3923

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7                          [Open session]

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 9            MR. MARCUSSEN:

10       Q.   Mr. Theunens, I believe we sort of ended up in Exhibit 1913.

11    Could you briefly tell us what this document, according to you, tell us

12    about arming and training of volunteers?

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we cannot discuss this

16    document until we know what it is.  What is the document?

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Seselj.

18            During the break the Judges considered the matter of objections,

19    and we realised that because of these objections we are wasting a great

20    deal of time.  Of course you're entitled to raise objections, but an

21    objection should be made when the Prosecutor asks for a document to be

22    admitted, and the objection may be accepted if the document is a false

23    document.  But if you raise an objection for a document that has indicia

24    of reliability or that is related to what the witness says, then we're

25    just wasting time.

Page 3924

 1            Secondly, some of your objections pertain to the contents of the

 2    expert's report or to his statement, and that's something that you should

 3    do as part of your cross-examination, because if you don't proceed that

 4    way, then the Chamber has to rule on each and every one of your objections

 5    and has to ask questions in order to obtain additional information.

 6            I've just been told that the Prosecutor has used 2 hours and 50

 7    minutes with four hours of Judges' questions on the contents, on the

 8    substance, and on the objections and so on and so forth.

 9            Of course I'm ready to admit that some objections may be

10    justified, but don't object for the sake of objecting, because what

11    matters is the substance.

12            You know that the final judgement will not deal with the

13    objections but with the substance of the documents.

14            If a document is a forged document, no problem.  Say it.  It's

15    your duty to say it.  But if, according to you, this document is not a

16    forged document or if it's a document that has some relevance, please do

17    not raise an objection just to obstruct the examination-in-chief.

18            You are dealing here with Judges who are familiar with the way

19    trials are conducted in this Tribunal.  We might be wasting time.

20            I'm going to give the floor, I don't know what you want to say,

21    but let me just say that we decided to tell you this as -- by way of an

22    introduction, but you have the floor.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you and your

24    colleagues consider that I'm making objections for the purposes of

25    obstruction, then I can give up making any more objections during the

Page 3925

 1    examination-in-chief.  I can do that.  However, I can consider that it is

 2    impossible to discuss this particular document because it's not a document

 3    at all.  It hasn't got the markings of a document.

 4            Now, the Prosecutor can find a piece of paper on the street and

 5    way, "Now, let's discuss this."  So I think this is quite unacceptable,

 6    and that is why I'm objecting to it.

 7            Now, if you consider that this can be discussed without knowing

 8    what it, in fact, is or who wrote it or published it, there's no name, no

 9    stamp, no date, there's something handwritten that appears to be a date,

10    but what are we discussing here?

11            Now, if you consider that this objection of mine is obstruction,

12    then I say straight away I am not going to make any more objections if you

13    say I am now obstructing the proceedings.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a look at the

15    document in question.  What was the number again, Mr. Marcussen, was it

16    19 --

17            MR. MARCUSSEN:  1913.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's still the same

19    document as before but --

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  But -- sorry.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Mr. Seselj, I think we --

22    the matter is closed.  *This document comes from General Vasiljevic.  It's

23    settled.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your permission,

25    we don't know if it is a document emanating from General Vasiljevic, and I

Page 3926

 1    doubt that it is but we don't know whether it is I don't have any proof to

 2    show it is.  We don't have any proof to show whose document it is.  There

 3    is no markings there.  It's just a piece of paper.  Perhaps somebody

 4    picked it up from the waste -- the Prosecutor picked it up from a waste

 5    paper basket.  You can't have documents presented in this way.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have to redact the name of

 7    the general.

 8            But Prosecutor, Mr. Prosecutor, there's no signature on this

 9    document.  You ever not provided any additional information with respect

10    to this document.  What can you tell us?  Because you see, anyone could

11    have given you this document.  This might be a document that came from the

12    Office of the Prosecutor.  It might be a document coming from someone who

13    is trying to manipulate you.

14            We need to have some information that would allow us to check the

15    relevance, the probative value of this document.

16            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would suggest that we review

17    this document, we proceed with the analysis of this document, and then

18    later on we'll see whether we can find something out about the provenance

19    of this document.  Otherwise, we would have seen this document to no

20    avail.  We can't keep wasting time this way.  We need to move ahead.

21            So if we start look at this document, let's do it properly.

22    That's my suggestion.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let's examine, let's

24    analyse this document and then we'll see what we should do.

25            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... documents in my

Page 3927

 1    report just to -- for one paragraph that is mentioned in the document that

 2    is on the English translation on page 5, and it's the third paragraph from

 3    the top where the issue of arming of volunteers, more specifically SRS

 4    volunteers, is being discussed.

 5            Now, I would like to add that on page -- starting on page 40 in

 6    the second part of the report, I include statements by Mr. Seselj and

 7    other officials of the War Staff on arming of the volunteers and they

 8    include the same information, meaning that the arming was carried out by

 9    JNA, Ministry of the Interior the Republic of Serbia, and Ministry of

10    Defence of the Republic of Serbia.

11            MR. MARCUSSEN:

12       Q.   So is it -- if I can paraphrase that, you're saying that this --

13    the information in this particular document, or at least the part you are

14    quoting this document for is corroborated by all the information in your

15    report and that's why you have included it?

16       A.   Yes, Your Honours.

17            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, Your Honours, I was going to propose that we

18    go to some of these other documents which illustrate this point unless

19    Your Honours want to --

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I may have misunderstood

21    but I have the following question:  Witness, you tell us that at paragraph

22    2 of page 5 of this document, you say that the weapons were provided by

23    the JNA.  That's what I thought I understood.

24            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours, it's the third paragraph, and if

25    I can read it out.  It says:  "A large number of people who have joined

Page 3928

 1    these formation are armed mostly with small arms from depots of the former

 2    JNA."  Because the document is from 1993 the JNA ceased to exist in May

 3    1992 and was replaced by the VJ.  MUP, which means Ministry of Interior

 4    and Serbian Ministry of Defence that were distributed in large numbers to

 5    volunteer forces engaged on the fronts in Croatia and BiH and in most

 6    cases were not returned.  The fact that the link -- or the reference is

 7    made to the front in Croatia and BiH allows me to conclude that we're

 8    talking about the distribution of weapons in 1991 and 1992.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  But who distributed these

10    weapons?  Who distributed the weapons?  That's the problem.

11            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, from a commonsense points of view,

12    weapons which are stored in depots of the JNA are under military control,

13    so weapons can only be taken from these depots with the formal military

14    authorisation which has been provided by -- by the commander.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  So it's not the Serbian

16    Radical Party that distributed the weapon but the army that did it.

17            THE WITNESS:  Indeed, Your Honours, but the War Staff acted at

18    least as an intermediate in the distribution of weapons to SRS volunteers.

19            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if I may, Your Honour, unless you wanted to

20    explore this with this particular document, the next document -- the next

21    couple of documents cast some light on this particular issue.

22            If Your Honours look at the next document in the binder which is

23    1804, you will see we have a certificate which bears the stamp of the SRS,

24    and this is a document certifying that a certain person has returned a

25    rifle that was issued to him at Bubanj Potok barracks and that this has

Page 3929

 1    been returned.

 2       Q.   Now, these barracks, Mr. Theunens, do you know who were in control

 3    of these barracks?

 4       A.   Your Honour, these barracks the Bubanj Potok, which is part of

 5    Belgrade, were part of the barracks of the JNA city command in Belgrade.

 6    I have also seen information which indicates that the Ministry of Interior

 7    took over control of the barracks, but I have not been able to corroborate

 8    that latter information.  When I mention Ministry of Interior it's

 9    Ministry of the interior of the Republic of Serbia.

10       Q.   And the next document is number 666, and this is a request from

11    the War Staff to a Territorial Defence and the Bijeljina area, which says:

12            "We ask you to provide a certain quantity of weapons in accordance

13    with the official establishment of a company for the purposes of ..." and

14    so on and so forth.

15            Mr. Theunens, this a document you have looked at also in this

16    context of arming SRS officers -- volunteers?

17       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  And again such documents allow to conclude

18    that mechanisms have been put in place in order to distribute the weapons

19    to SRS volunteers through the SRS War Staff.

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if Your Honours would follow with me to the

21    next exhibit which is 1129, 65 ter number 1129, we have here a request for

22    uniforms.

23       Q.   Mr. Theunens, would you explain what this document is, please.

24       A.   So this is a request signed for Lieutenant General

25    Ljubomir Domazetovic who was responsible for mobilisation at the Federal

Page 3930

 1    Secretariat for People's Defence.  So the 3rd administration.  It's not

 2    signed by him, but it's somebody who has the authority to sign in in his

 3    place, to issue 50 camouflage uniforms to a group of volunteers through

 4    the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence.  And Ljubisa Petkovic is

 5    authorised or is the person who is designated to be in charge of these

 6    volunteers to collect the uniforms.

 7            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And again, Your Honours, if you would follow with

 8    me to -- under the next tab which is 65 ter number 1119, we have a similar

 9    type document.

10       Q.   Mr. Theunens, if you would explain us what level in the hierarchy

11    this document belongs to and what it is.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I had a personal comment to

13    make, but I'll do that later.

14            Please proceed.

15            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, this document, 1119, is a receipt, and

16    it's a standardised form used by the Republic of Serbia Ministry of

17    Interior whereby Ljubisa Petkovic, who is the chief the War Staff, signs

18    for the reception of 780 insignia for berets.

19            MR. MARCUSSEN:

20       Q.   Mr. Theunens, I think maybe we went out of -- out of sync here I

21    think the next document you're referring to is the next one we're going to

22    get to, which is 1539.

23       A.   Sorry.

24       Q.   Can I ask you to go back there is another SSNO document to the

25    quartermaster dated on the 13th of April.

Page 3931

 1       A.   Oh, yeah.

 2       Q.   1119.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   It's very similar to 1129.

 5       A.   I'm sorry.  I jumped a document.  I apologise.

 6            1119, yeah, also deals with the issue of uniforms.  This time 52

 7    camouflage uniforms by an organ of the SSNO signed by a Colonel Todorovic

 8    to --

 9       Q.   And -- sorry.  This is also referred to in your report?

10       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.

11       Q.   Now, then the last document in this section of exhibits which deal

12    with arming and equipping is the document that Mr. Theunens just talked

13    about, sorry, 1539.

14            Mr. Theunens, could you repeat what you said about this document,

15    please?  It's a receipt?

16       A.   Yeah, a receipt signed by Ljubisa Petkovic for the reception of

17    780 insignia for berets from the ministry of interior of the Republic of

18    Serbia, and it's dated the 31st of July, 1992.

19            MR. MARCUSSEN:  So, Your Honours, at this stage I would like to

20    see the admission of these documents and they will have for the reasons

21    already explained be under seal.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, the

23    Prosecutor and the witness must in this document 1539 where mention is

24    made of the Republic of Serbia.  Where does it say that?  Where does it

25    say that the receipt is taken for the beret insignia from the Republic of

Page 3932

 1    Serbia, which they've just told you?

 2            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, at least in the English translation

 3    it says, "Receipt." The title of the document is, "Receipt for Weapons and

 4    Ammunition Issued by the Republic of Serbia Ministry of the Interior."

 5            Now, I don't master Cyrillic, I'm afraid, but it comes from the

 6    title of the document.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it says at the top that this is

 8    for Bijeljina.  Perhaps you didn't hear me.  It says Bijeljina at the top.

 9    Not for the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.

10            MR. MARCUSSEN:  The document is -- the name as I can see it on the

11    top is to Ljubisa Petkovic who is the recipient, and what the Bijeljina

12    reference is we don't know, but the point simply here is that

13    Ljubisa Petkovic received these insignia from the MUP of Serbia.  Maybe to

14    be taken to Bijeljina, I don't know.

15       Q.   Can the witness shed light on this or?

16       A.   No, Your Honours.  I know that SRS volunteers were involved in the

17    takeover of Bijeljina.  They were led by Mirko Blagojevic, but I have no

18    further information in relation to this particular document.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you state once again that this is

20    an inappropriate objection, then the same holds true and I won't make any

21    more, but it says Ljubisa Petrovic.  The Prosecutor says Ljubisa Petrovic,

22    and I think the witness said the same, whereas the chief of the War Staff

23    of the Serbian Radical Party is Ljubisa Petkovic with a K.  Petrovic and

24    Petkovic are two different surnames.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Maybe there's a

Page 3933

 1    little mix-up.  This receipt seems to be signed by a Petrovic and not

 2    Petkovic.  That's not the same person.  And it seems that this is received

 3    in Bijeljina.  These are beret insignias, 780 of them.

 4            Maybe this has absolutely nothing to do with the SRS.

 5            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Might I be allowed to add, Judge,

 6    look at the date.  It's July.  Bijeljina was liberated in April, and this

 7    is July, and we're dealing with insignia on police caps, berets, where the

 8    Serb flag has been stylised, and they are police insignias, not military

 9    ones or volunteer ones.  But if you don't think my objection is

10    appropriate, I'll stop it all.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  Yes, I heard your

12    objection.

13            But, Mr. Prosecutor, do you maintain your request or do you

14    withdraw it?  It seems that this document has nothing to do with the SRS.

15    Furthermore, these are insignias for police berets.

16            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, I would like to have this document

17    marked for identification.  I think if -- well, dependent on which

18    witnesses we eventually get, we will be able to clarify this.  This is a

19    document that have been provided to us by a person who will be able to

20    explain this, and -- but it would be best, I think, only to mark it for

21    identification at this point.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Registrar, we

23    need some numbers under seal except for this one.  This one will get a MFI

24    given the reservations expressed.

25            MR. MARCUSSEN:  [Previous translation continues] ... 65 ter

Page 3934

 1    numbers or --

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please do so.  And the report

 3    also for the -- the report 1913 must also be marked for identification.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter number 1913 will be

 5    Exhibit number P229.  I do apologise 65 ter number 1913 will be MFI 229;

 6    65 ter number 1804, Exhibit number P230.  675 ter number 666 will be

 7    Exhibit number P231; 65 ter number 1129 will be Exhibit number P232; 65

 8    ter number 1119 will be Exhibit number P233; and 65 ter number 1539 will

 9    be MFI P234 all provisionally under seal.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me return to

11    what you said earlier.  Here -- here in this case your objection was fully

12    justified and well-grounded.  So you wanted to note that there are

13    objections that can be grounded, but I also want to show to you that

14    sometimes you raise objections that deal with things that could be dealt

15    with in the cross-examination.

16            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the next three documents have been

17    included for the purpose of discussing with the witness payment of

18    volunteers and their families.

19       Q.   Mr. Theunens, what do you conclude about -- well, basically who

20    were volunteers that were sent out by the SRS?  Were they being paid?

21       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  Like -- like any other volunteer, SRS

22    volunteers were being paid.  We see from the documents that are included

23    in the report that this is done through the -- or with the assistance of

24    the SRS War Staff, which has established relations to that effect with the

25    Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.  And excuse me, also the

Page 3935

 1    intervention or the cooperation with the ministry for -- the Serbian

 2    ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.

 3       Q.   And were arrangements also made for the payment of family members

 4    of the SRS in case a volunteer would get killed, for example, at the

 5    front?

 6       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  And more specific documents can be found in

 7    part 2 of the report, page 58 to 60.

 8            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, if you would once again follow

 9    with me in the binder.  There are just three examples of this kind of

10    documents to illustrate this point.

11            The first one is 65 ter number 1020.  This is an announcement from

12    the Serbian Radical Party stating:

13            "We're hereby informing all volunteers that wages for

14    participation in combat operations in Western Slavonia, 5th Corps zone of

15    responsibility will be paid on the 26th, 27th, and 28th of March, 2000,

16    from 1300 to 1700 at the 4th July barracks in Belgrade."  And then it

17    explains how family members can also collect these wages.

18       Q.   Mr. Theunens, the 4th July Barracks Belgrade, who were at those

19    barracks?

20       A.   Your Honours, these were JNA barracks which were also used for the

21    training and equipment of volunteers.  The fact that the payment is done

22    in Belgrade indicates that among the SRS volunteers fighting or

23    participating in the fighting in Western Slavonia must be a significant

24    number of people originating from Belgrade or its -- or its surroundings

25    or at least Serbia, because one wouldn't invite locals from Western

Page 3936

 1    Slavonia to travel to Belgrade to collect their money.

 2            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if Your Honours will follow me then to the

 3    next document.  It is 639.  We have here a document which is relevant to

 4    the issue of the financial compensation to family members of killed

 5    volunteers.

 6       Q.   Mr. Theunens, is this one of the documents you referred to in your

 7    report?

 8       A.   Yes, Your Honours, and it's of interest that the request is

 9    addressed to the ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.

10            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, Your Honours, this was sort of a landmark

11    document in the sense that we have now finished binder 1, and I would ask

12    you if you would follow me now to binder 2 to look at the first

13    document --

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me --

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  With this last

16    document -- of course during cross-examination Mr. Seselj can come back to

17    this, but I'm in control of the examination-in-chief; and we want to avoid

18    wasting time, so if we could solve a problem -- or settle a problem right

19    away, it's best to do it immediately rather than wait for the

20    cross-examination.  I think that would save time.

21            This document is sent by the Serbian Radical Party to the ministry

22    for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.

23            I'm speaking under your control, Witness, because you have worked

24    on this document.  This document states that the Serbian -- obviously the

25    Serbian Radical Party is requesting the approval of the amount of 50.000

Page 3937

 1    dinars being for Aleksandar Mirovic killed in Vukovar on 2nd November

 2    1991; Mirovic being a volunteer who had been assigned to the Vukovar

 3    Territorial Defence and who lived in Belgrade, and we have his address.

 4            So when I read this document, the Serbian Radical Party is calling

 5    on governmental authority, making a request.  It's not we pay, it's we

 6    request here.  So they're asking for 50.000 dinars to be paid out, but who

 7    is paying?  Is it the Serbian Radical Party, or is it the authority, the

 8    governmental authority, who receives this letter?

 9            THE WITNESS:  The ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia

10    who makes the payment, and this is in line with -- okay.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Serbian Radical Party is

12    drawing the attention of this ministry, requesting for Mirovic's family to

13    be paid out 50.000 dinars, but it's not the Serbian Radical Party that's

14    paying.

15            THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honours.  What we can conclude from the

16    document is there must be a procedure whereby the Radical Party or the War

17    Staff intervenes on behalf of its volunteers in order to ensure that they

18    are paid or that their relatives are paid in case of the volunteer being

19    killed during the fighting; and it's coherent with what I discussed on

20    page 79 in part 1 of the report where a number of financial measures are

21    being discussed --

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that.  But

23    what difference do you make in the fact that, you know, a political party

24    would ask a ministry to pay some kind of amount to a combatant and a

25    social worker that would maybe draw the attention of this ministry on the

Page 3938

 1    desperate situation and the destitute situation of this family is or the

 2    imam or the Pope or the priest that would send a letter to the ministry

 3    drawing the attention of the ministry on the situation of this family,

 4    saying 50.000 dinars would come in very handy.  Is there a difference that

 5    it is a political party asking for the money rather than someone else?

 6            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, if you look at the document in

 7    isolation, and if you make abstraction from the fact that the payment is

 8    related to the participation in combat operations of this volunteer,

 9    there's nothing wrong.  Any political party or anyone -- anyone could ask

10    a ministry to provide social for humanitarian assistance to private

11    persons, but what is important is that, first of all, it deals with the

12    payment of a volunteer who is originating from Serbia and who allegedly,

13    according to the document, served in the Vukovar Territorial Defence.  So

14    the local Serb Territorial Defence in Vukovar, even though he lived in

15    Belgrade --

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, but in the zone

17    of responsibility of the 5th Corps, but that is exactly what is stated in

18    this document.

19            THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure I see this reference, Your Honours,

20    but --

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I was maybe

22    mistaken.  There was a previous document where there was a reference to

23    this.  It was the previous document that there was a reference to 5th

24    Corps.

25            So here it is a member of the Vukovar Territorial Defence.  That's

Page 3939

 1    obvious from the document.

 2            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.  The Vukovar

 3    TO, at that time, and we're talking about November 1991, was it part of

 4    the armed forces?  And I'm not saying JNA.  I'm saying armed forces of --

 5    of the Republic of Serbia.

 6            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, as we have discussed earlier, at that

 7    moment in time the TO of Vukovar, which prior to the war was part of the

 8    TO of the Republic of Croatia, has split, and -- into mono-ethnic or --

 9    let's call it Serb-dominated and Croatian-dominated structures.  The

10    Croats have joined the ZNG and forces of the Ministry of Interior, whereas

11    the Serbs continue to call their structure the TO, actually it's the local

12    Serb TO, and they respond to Serbia.  They have nothing to do with the

13    Republic of Croatia.

14            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry, I don't want to testify for -- on behalf

15    the witness, but just for --

16            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please don't.

17            MR. MARCUSSEN:

18       Q.   But for -- to clarify, Judge Lattanzi asked about the armed forces

19    of the Republic of Serbia.  I believe you testified that doesn't exist.

20    What armed forces is it you're answer relate to --

21            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, armed forces of the republic

22    that were still existing at the time.  It was the Socialist Federative

23    Republic of Serbia.  This is the entity I was mentioning.  I know -- this

24    was it.

25            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I just want to make sure there was no conclusion

Page 3940

 1    so obviously not.  So I don't think we need to go into this further.

 2            THE WITNESS:  In very simple terms we could call it forces

 3    fighting on the Serbian side, but it would be a highly unscientific

 4    definition; but I think we understand each other.  Yes, Your Honours,

 5    and --

 6            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Theunens, before we jump out of this binder

 7    could I call you back to 65 ter number 1020, the previous document.

 8            MR. MARCUSSEN:

 9       Q.   Mr. Theunens, that is the announcement --

10            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Exactly.

11            JUDGE HARHOFF:  It's coming up on the screen right now.  My

12    question is if you have any information about how the Serbian Radical

13    Party was able to announce and indeed to pay the money that was promised

14    or announced to the volunteers.  In other words, is there an underlying

15    document that shows that the SRS was applying for money to pay the

16    volunteers from the government, or do you know if the radical -- the

17    Serbian Radical Party was able to drum up this money from private funds?

18            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, to -- to answer in relation to this

19    specific document, my understanding is that the SRS is only making the

20    announcement and inviting its volunteers to come and collect the money at

21    that location, but the money's provided by the Serbian government.

22            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you have any evidence of this?

23            THE WITNESS:  The only evidence of that is the information I

24    discussed in part 1 of the report where I elaborate on the measures taken

25    by the Serbian ministry for Serbs outside of Serbia who announce in the

Page 3941

 1    parliament that they have prepared a number of -- taken a number of

 2    measures to ensure the financial compensation of payment of volunteers.  I

 3    have seen documentation about the -- indicated the SRS had obtained

 4    financial support from Serbs outside of Serbia donations of humanitarian

 5    aid and so on, but I have no information as to whether this -- those

 6    donations were used to pay volunteers or not.

 7            MR. MARCUSSEN:

 8       Q.   Mr. --

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This -- this document is

10    astonishing, if I could say so, because it all depends on how you read it.

11    You will know, for all documents, it all depends how you read it.  You

12    could read it with this in mind, thinking that the Serbian Radical Party

13    is paying, which is why my fellow Judge asked the question, and you could

14    not answer it because you say that according to you, it's the government

15    who paid.  But -- and if it was the radical, the Serbian Radical Party

16    that was paying, that would be rather astonishing.  How could he pay

17    soldiers who were regularly under the 5th Corps of responsibility?  Maybe

18    that could be envisaged but that could be quite extraordinary.

19            But secondly if that was the case, then the Serbian Radical Party

20    would need to have very deep pockets to do that, either because through

21    donations or because they had, you know, coffers that were full.  That's

22    one way you could read it.  And this could be -- this could be

23    detrimental.

24            Now, in the English version, I don't know how this was translated,

25    but when you read the English version it looks like the Serbian Radical

Page 3942

 1    Party is making an announcement maybe for political reasons to inform the

 2    people that all those who took part in combat operations in Western

 3    Slavonia in the 5th Corps zone of responsibility will be paid on March 26,

 4    27, and 28 from 1.00 to 5.00 p.m. in the Belgrade barracks.  Then this is

 5    a -- might be a political announcement but who is paying, it's the Serbia

 6    army -- the Serbian government.  So there are two ways to interpret this.

 7    How do you interpret this?  I'm sure you have drawn conclusion from this

 8    document.

 9            THE WITNESS:  Your Honours I think the answer can -- the answer is

10    given in 65 ter number 988, but I don't know whether it's included in the

11    binder; but it's quoted in the statement section in my report on page 58

12    of part 2.

13            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Maybe we could call it up in e-court.  I don't

14    think we have included this in the binder.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, we won't be wasting time

16    because we're waiting for the Prosecutor.  Bubanj Potok barracks is a JNA

17    barracks, and the JNA was on the federal budget, not on the budget of

18    Serbia.  This witness ought to know that.  He is misleading you

19    intentionally.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Rest assured, Mr. Seselj, nobody

21    can be misleading us.  As you have seen, we have just spent five hours

22    putting questions.  That is the precise reason why, because we want to

23    avoid making mistakes.  So we go to the heart of the matter.

24            So this document, 588, if I'm not mistaken, it's a document 988.

25    It's the one which is on the screen.  What does this document say

Page 3943

 1    according to you.

 2            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... I think it's

 3    quite straightforward.  It's a letter signed by Ljubisa Petkovic, chief of

 4    the SRS War Staff to the ministry.  It's translated ministry for liaison

 5    with the Serbs, but it's actually the ministry for the relations with the

 6    Serbs outside of Serbia wherein Petkovic asks the ministry to stop making

 7    payments to volunteers unless they have evidence of their service, i.e.,

 8    that they can present a certificate; and we have discussed some

 9    certificates already earlier during my testimony it.

10            Petkovic adds the second sentence this is especially the case with

11    volunteers sent to war-stricken areas where the Serbian Radical Party.

12            So this brings me back to my earlier reply, that is that the War

13    Staff acts as an intermediate.  They keep records of the activities of

14    their volunteers when they started with their service in the war zone,

15    when this service ended, where they served, and so on and so on.  They

16    issue certificates to that effect.  And that information is then used in

17    order to allow the ministry for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia, of

18    the government of the Republic of Serbia, to make these payments.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but this is what you

20    can read into the document, but one can read into it different things.

21            I discover here that there is a ministry in charge of relations

22    with the Serbs outside Serbia.  This ministry which was established, I

23    don't know, under what conditions.  Maybe this will be established by

24    documents.  This ministry undoubtedly has a budget, without doubt, because

25    at the time the -- this operated on the basis of financial resources.  So

Page 3944

 1    this document can be interpreted as follows:  On the 20th of February,

 2    1992, the SRS informs this ministry that once it pays out the money that

 3    it should check that the people who are going to receive the payments are

 4    in effect volunteers who have been sent outside.  This is something --

 5    this is the way we can look at this document and interpret it.

 6            What do you think of this?  And this political party which, if

 7    they have MPs who are sitting in parliament, have attended the session

 8    when the budget was approved.  So the idea here is to draw the attention

 9    of the ministry so that they do not pay out money to people who do not

10    deserve it.  So what do you think of this?

11            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... listening to

12    you, I understood that you said that the payments are made by the ministry

13    for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia, or maybe I misunderstood you.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that could be one way of

15    looking at it.

16            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... from the

17    document so that just to summarise, it's the ministry who pays the

18    volunteers based on the information provided by the SRS War Staff.

19    Information consisting of certificates or other records that prove the

20    service of the volunteer.  And it implies a recognition by the ministry of

21    the SRS War Staff as being a body that is entitled to carry out these

22    activities.

23            MR. MARCUSSEN:

24       Q.   Mr. Theunens, maybe it would assist if you would remind us when we

25    discuss the legal framework, I believe you discussed what under the law

Page 3945

 1    were the provisions for the payment of volunteers and their status.

 2       A.   Mm-hmm.

 3       Q.   Could you recapsulate that for us just briefly, please?

 4       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  As we discussed initially, and it's also on

 5    page 79, page 1 of the report, volunteers were considered equal to

 6    conscripts, which means that they have the same benefits, they ever the

 7    same duties, but they have the same benefits as conscripts; and in

 8    addition to that, on page 79, I discuss a document 65 ter number 7150,

 9    which is a reply by the Serbian government to a question posed by a deputy

10    in the Serbian parliament on the measures the government of the Republic

11    of Serbia is intended to take to preserve the welfare of JNA reservists

12    and volunteers from Serbia who are deployed at the front.  This response

13    dates from the 5th of December, 1991.  And in response an overview of the

14    financial measures is provided.  There's talk of personal and family

15    disability allowances, tax reductions for private entrepreneurs,; but that

16    is under consideration.  Reduction or exemption of electricity bills.

17            So there is an organised effort on the side of the government of

18    the Republic of Serbia to pay Serbian volunteers who are participating in

19    the conflict in Croatia.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps we can now move on

21    to the second binder.

22            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm glad that we managed to move to another binder

23    today, Your Honours.

24            The first document in the next binder is a similar kind of

25    document.  It is a certificate issued --

Page 3946

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 2            MR. MARCUSSEN:  I was just going show this one document, which is

 3    also relevant the same issue, and then I was going to ask for the

 4    admission of the documents, indeed, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   Mr. Theunens, this certificate, have you also referred to this in

 6    your report?

 7       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.

 8            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, I've simply included this

 9    document so that you have this -- a number of these documents for you

10    to -- to review later on.  I don't really wanted to go into detail about

11    this document.  It's a certificate issued by the War Staff to a person, to

12    family members of a killed volunteer.

13            THE WITNESS:  If you allow me, here the certificate does not

14    indicate the origin of the sum.

15            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, Your Honours, I will request the admission

16    under seal then of 1020, 639, 738, and as we also discussed 988 and

17    reviewed that in e-court, I would also request the admission of that

18    document, Your Honour.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1020 will be

20    Exhibit --

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

22    admission of this document, documents under seal.  I demand that these

23    documents be public.  There is no reason for them to be confidential.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have told us that, and we

25    have told you that we would rule on this question at the end.  So don't

Page 3947

 1    say the same thing all over again.  You want it to be public, and we have

 2    told you that we would rule on that.  Registrar, you have the floor.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1020 will be Exhibit

 4    number P235; 65 ter number 639 will be P236; 65 ter number 738 will be

 5    Exhibit number 237; and 65 ter number 988 will be Exhibit number P238, all

 6    under seal provisionally.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we have five

 8    hours [as interpreted] before we finish.  We can't extend our time for the

 9    sake of the interpreters.  You've only got five minutes left.

10            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, it would be over optimistic to hope

11    that we can get through the entire subject I'm now going to go through,

12    but I think we should start.

13            Your Honours, what I wanted to discuss next is the requests for

14    assistance sent to the SRS, and so we're now in the second binder and the

15    first document I was going to ask the witness about is 65 ter number 737.

16            This is --

17       Q.   Well, first of all, have you referred to this document in your

18    report?

19       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.

20       Q.   And for what -- what does this show about the manner in which

21    volunteers were sent out?

22       A.   Your Honours, this document has been discussed in the context of a

23    request by units of the local Serb TO in Western Slavonia where they

24    request the SRS War Staff to provide manpower.  Now, this request is also

25    addressed to the Serbian ministry for Serbs outside of Serbia.

Page 3948

 1            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, as these documents are

 2    discussed in the report, I was going to go through them quite quickly.

 3    The next document is 790, and again this is a request for assistance.

 4       Q.   Mr. Theunens, is this also a document you referred to in your

 5    report, and what region does relate to?

 6       A.   Indeed, Your Honours.  I've referred to this in my report.  It --

 7    first of all, it discusses the situation, military or operational

 8    situation in the area of Okucani and Western Slavonia on the 11th and 12th

 9    of December.  It also talks about enemy activity.  And then at the end

10    there is a reference to a ministry to provide -- or to fulfil a request

11    for and then the text is illegible, certain resources that was certainty

12    several days before.

13       Q.   And you -- you said a ministry.  Am I correct the document says we

14    expect your speedy and urgent assistance in troops, and we ask the

15    Ministry of Defence in Serbia to approve clothe, footwear, weapons,

16    ammunition and then --

17       A.   Yes, indeed, I had overseen that sentence.  So the reference to

18    ministry is actually explained two lines above.  The Ministry of Defence

19    of the Republic of Serbia is mentioned.

20            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, the next document 1174.

21       Q.   Mr. Theunens, is this another example you use in your reports to

22    illustrate requests from local TOs to the War Staff for the provision of

23    men and -- and -- and weapons?  These two things are mentioned, I think.

24       A.   Indeed your -- Your Honours this addresses then the situation

25    Odzak and Derventa, which is in northern Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 3949

 1            MR. MARCUSSEN:  And again, Your Honours, rushing a bit through

 2    these documents, they're discussing -- I'm sorry.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's very good.  Just one

 4    small question that comes to mind.

 5            This request, which is intended to for the defence of this

 6    village, this request is addressed to the Serbian Radical Party.  Is this

 7    request addressed to the Serbian Radical Party, Witness?

 8            THE WITNESS:  Indeed, Your Honours, because it's -- it's mentioned

 9    in the --

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

11            THE WITNESS:  The top left of the document, I mean, the

12    addressees under the --

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Have you checked

14    whether these Crisis Staffs in this locality did not also send this type

15    of request to other parties?  Did they not do this and to send their

16    request to all and other political parties and not --

17            THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers]

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Serbian Radical Party.

19            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ... carried out

20    research to find out also whether actually volunteers were sent, so

21    whether this request was fulfilled, but I have not come across such

22    documents.  They may have exist but we don't have them.  But at least it

23    shows that the members of the Crisis Staff believe that the SRS War Staff

24    is in a position to assist them.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So maybe it would be

Page 3950

 1    better to ask for the tendering of documents now and resume tomorrow.

 2    It's as you like, Mr. Marcussen.  You can ask for the exhibit numbers

 3    right now or you may have forgotten in the meantime.

 4            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Nope, you are right, Your Honour, I might have

 5    forgotten tomorrow so it is probably a prudent thing to ask for the

 6    admission of the documents we have just discussed with the witness; so

 7    again I ask under seal, and I think we have noted the accused's objection

 8    on this but request under seal the admission of 65 ter numbers 733, 790,

 9    and 1174.  Oh --

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber --

11            MR. MARCUSSEN:  Excuse me.  It should have been -- it should not

12    have been 733, it should have been 737.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14            Mr. Seselj has raised a general objection.  This has been recorded

15    on the transcript.  Registrar, can we have some numbers, please.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 737 will be Exhibit

17    number P239; 65 ter number 790 will be Exhibit number 240; and 65 ter

18    number 1174 will be Exhibit number P241, all provisionally under seal.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

20            As you know, we shall begin tomorrow at 9.00.  It is usually at

21    8.30 that we start but anyway, since nobody else is in the courtroom, we

22    can start tomorrow at 9.00.  I hope that the examination-in-chief will be

23    concluded tomorrow.  We shall try to make sure that we hold our tongues

24    and don't ask too many questions, because I think you have approximately

25    two hours left, and then we might be able to begin with the

Page 3951

 1    cross-examination.  The cross-examination will also take place during the

 2    rest of the week.  So anyway, we shall meet again tomorrow at 9.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.34 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day

 5                          of February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.





















* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 24 April 2008. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 24 April 2008.