1 Wednesday, 20 February 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 12.01 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the case,
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours. This
9 is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today we are Wednesday, the 20th
11 of February, 2008. I'd like to greet the representatives of the
12 Prosecution, the witness, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people assisting
13 us in the courtroom. The examination-in-chief will resume today unless
14 Mr. Seselj has something to tell us.
15 Mr. Seselj.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a terrible problem
18 has occurred, and as we're talking about a confidential decision, you know
19 that in principle I am against any form of confidentiality, but I would
20 nonetheless like to draw your attention so that perhaps you could issue
21 the order to move to private session.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Could we go into private
23 session, please.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 3840-3856 redacted. Private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Marcussen.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I am not in a position yet to inform
8 Your Honours about progress regarding disclosure of certain documents that
9 are subject to and requests for protective measures, so on that I cannot
10 update you.
11 There was also another issue of whether or not the Prosecution had
12 the decree or the decision establishing an imminent -- the state of
13 imminent threat of war, and indeed that exhibit which Mr. Seselj requested
14 is 65 ter number 592 on the Prosecution exhibit list, and I have copies
15 here that I can hand out, and in light of yesterday's discussions maybe it
16 would be appropriate to admit these into evidence.
17 I --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have to remind you,
21 Mr. President, that you asked this of the Prosecution yesterday,
22 principally you, and then that I help the Prosecutor by telling him where
23 he could find it, but it was the Trial Chamber who actually asked for the
24 document yesterday. I might have supported your request, but you
25 requested it first. So the Prosecutor would have had to have come by that
1 document himself.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be,
3 what -- what matters is that we have the documents which was published in
4 the Official Gazette on the 18th of October, 1991.
5 So can we have an exhibit number, please. This is a well-known
6 document. Registrar, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another objection to make.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will recall that yesterday both
10 the Prosecutor and the witness throughout said that the imminent threat of
11 war was established on the 3rd of October, 1991, and as naive as I am,
12 without having the documents in fronts of me I believed them, but you
13 could see that it was the 1st of October, in fact, when an act on the
14 proclamation of a state of war was proclaimed the day when we transformed
15 the Crisis Staff into the War Staff of the Serbian Radical Party. So
16 that's just what happened yesterday. So I was taken in by that trick of
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. True to fact the
19 document does that it is the 1 of October not the 18th. Could we have an
20 exhibit number and then the witness will be --
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... P220.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm sure that this would be an issue in
24 cross-examination in due course. Your Honours, we left off yesterday at a
25 point when we were going through various documents relative to the War
1 Staff of the SRS, and if Your Honours would go to where we left off
2 yesterday in binder 1, the next documents I would like to discuss with the
3 witness begins with Exhibit number 65 ter 486. It's like three-fourths
4 down in the binder. And the issue that I was going to bring up with the
5 witness concerned the issue of reports received by the War Staff.
6 President Judge Antonetti already raised this issue on the first
7 day of the testimony of the witness, and the reference that is at pages
8 3656 and 3657 of the transcript, where he mentioned two specific reports,
9 65 ter number 459, and I apologise, maybe that is actually the exhibit we
10 should begin with, which is -- if you found the document I just mentioned,
11 it's just the document before what I just said. And the second document,
12 the second report, is Exhibit number 486.
13 Could we -- without displaying it to the public, could we call up
14 5 -- sorry, 459, please.
15 WITNESS: REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]
16 Examination by Mr. Marcussen: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Theunens, do you have the document in front of you?
18 A. I have it now, Your Honours.
19 Q. You have it on the screen.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Mr. Theunens, you mentioned this report the other day, but could
22 you just remind us? What is this document?
23 A. Your Honours, this document is a report which was compiled by
24 Zoran Rankic, the deputy chief of the SRS War Staff who addresses in the
25 report his observations during the visit he carried out to Slavonia,
1 Baranja, and Western Srem, and I would like to draw your attention to the
2 first three lines of the document where the author says that he was sent
3 by the order of the staff and the president Dr. Vojislav Seselj.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, what is the date of this document?
5 Do we have that?
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: I don't believe we have a date on the document or
7 at least it's difficult to read at least that's what the translation says
8 I don't know if -- sometime in 1991 if Your Honour look at the bottom of
9 the second page.
10 THE WITNESS: My understanding is it's the 2nd of September, 1991,
11 Your Honours. Maybe see --
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: If you look at the B/C/S version on the last page,
13 it says "Belgrade, 02 --" it looks like 09, 1991.
14 And, Your Honours, if you've found the document in the binder,
15 then if you would like to flip to the next document which is then 486,
16 which may we also call up.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going very fast with
18 this 4 -- first document 459.
19 Now, Witness, a report has been prepared by Mr. Rankic following
20 an order given by the staff and the president, Mr. Seselj. This person
21 went to Slavonia to visit the units there who were seemingly on the
22 ground, on the battleground. We don't know whether it was a battle ground
23 or not, but anyway.
24 So as you are a military expert, what can you conclude thereof?
25 How are we to understand this? From your point of view, of course.
1 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honours, it -- it supports the conclusion
2 I drew earlier that the SRS War Staff is acting as a military staff organ
3 whereby the Party Staff and the president Vojislav Seselj can issue orders
4 to the SRS War Staff to visit volunteer units or SRS volunteer units on
5 the field, whereby I think when we finish the whole sentence, the first
6 sentence, Rankic doesn't only go to just visit the units as some kind of a
7 social activity, but he also goes to relay so to forward an order to
8 withdraw in order to re-group forces. So this indicates that the War
9 Staff and Mr. Seselj are in a position to issue orders to their volunteers
10 on the field.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down somewhat, Witness, please.
12 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. And the dates is it's sent on the 3rd
13 of August, 1991.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now if we look at this in
15 detail, he arrived on the 31st of August around 8.00 p.m. seeming think
16 there is an operation going on. There are mortars, there is shelling.
17 And he contacts the commander Branislav Gavrilovic and his deputy Miroslav
18 Vukotic. So this unit has a commander. That commander is Gavrilovic.
19 Who does he report to in military terms? Who does he report to, this
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the document does not allow to draw
22 such a conclusion. What I do know from looking at other documents --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because I'm sorry, Witness, but
24 let me give you another example, contemporaneous example. Take the case
25 of Iraq, for instance. Sometimes there are members of parliament,
1 politicians who go on the ground, who visit the units, who talk to the
2 members of the units. Does this mean that one is going to infer that this
3 particular political party is commanding the operations on the ground?
4 This is what the whole issue hinges on. These are some of the questions
5 that the Bench have.
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I believe I understand your -- your
7 question, your concern. When you give the example of Iraq, you are
8 talking about a regular armed force, probably one of the coalition forces
9 active there, who are being visited by people who are not part of the
10 chain of command. If a Member of Parliament or any other authority who is
11 not part of the chain of command would visit these units and would give
12 orders, there would be a problem, because the principle of single command
13 and control would be violated. So in such a situation the person who
14 receives the order has to inform his commander on the next superior level
15 to alert him of this event.
16 Returning to the report compiled by Zoran Rankic, deputy chief of
17 the War Staff, Rankic is visiting a unit of SRS volunteers. On the 30th
18 of August, 1991, he meets Branislav Gavrilovic. Branislav Gavrilovic is a
19 senior SRS volunteer. I have been able to draw that conclusion from other
20 documents I have reviewed while preparing this report, and you will notice
21 that Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, is not only active in Slavonia,
22 Baranja, and Western Srem as a person in charge of SRS volunteers, but we
23 also see him later in other areas, for example, Sarajevo in the course of
24 1992 and later on where he's in the same position, in command of a group
25 or detachment of SRS volunteers. Gavrilovic is even recognised for his
1 activities during the conflicts by Mr. Seselj through his proclamation to
2 Chetnik Vojvoda.
3 So what we have is a member of the SRS War Staff visiting a SRS
4 unit in the area.
5 To address your point about the JNA. As I said, the document does
6 not allow to conclude who of the JNA was in charge. However when we look
7 at the specifics, and that is also addressed in the Slavonia, Baranja, and
8 Western Srem section of my report, the senior command of the JNA is
9 unhappy with the situation in Eastern Slavonia at that moment in time.
10 That is why in the course of the month of September the overall commander
11 is replaced, i.e., that General Zivota Panic commander of the 1st military
12 district is put in charge of the operations in Slavonia, Baranja, and
13 Western Srem. Panic, after his appointment reorganises the forces into
14 two Operational Groups, Operational Group north, Operational Group south
15 there are still other forces active too; but the main impact of Panic
16 taking over is as he declares himself he installs or he restores single
17 command and control over all the forces, JNA, TO Serbia, local Serb TO as
18 well as volunteers that are active in the area.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Theunens, if we now go to the next document, which will then
22 be 486. If we can call that up in e-court.
23 This is a document saying -- well, there we have it up on the
24 screen. Defence Staff document. Do you refer to this document also in
25 your report?
1 A. Yes indeed, Your Honours.
2 Q. And what does this document tell us about orders and reporting
3 within the SRS?
4 A. Well --
5 Q. In particular reporting to the War Staff.
6 A. This document, which was also published later on in the SRS party
7 magazine includes detailed information on the military situation in
8 Western Slavonia where SRS volunteers are active. It also addresses how
9 this unit was trained, its activities, how it's structured, and at the end
10 of the report -- maybe if we go to the last page.
11 Q. Yes, we can do that.
12 A. In the last paragraph, Your Honours, Radovanovic -- I'm reading
13 from the document now. In the last -- in the second line of the last
14 paragraph he says:
15 "At 1800 hours the same day I dismissed all the volunteers under
16 my direct command who were stationed in the villages," and so on and so
17 on, "and ordered them to report to the Party Staff in Belgrade on their
18 arrival at their places of residence ..."
19 This shows that Radovanovic is in a position to issue orders and
20 even he has volunteers under his command. There's no mention made of any
21 notification or participation of a JNA officer or commander, commanding
22 officer in that transfer of order, and then these volunteers are to report
23 based on the order of Radovanovic to the SRS War Staff in Belgrade.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, I would seek the admission of
25 the two documents we just have talked about, 459 and 486.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We'll give an a number,
2 but then I will ask my question. So could you please give us two numbers.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. 65 ter number 459 will be
4 Exhibit number P221 under seal, and 65 ter number 486 will be Exhibit
5 number P222 under seal.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. Expert
7 witness, this report which was sent by Mr. Radovanovic to the Serbian
8 Radical Party, apparently, seems to deal with the activities of the
9 volunteers from the SRS. This report explains that the detachment was set
10 up on July 7th in the village of Grosnica, and then describes what has
11 happened, which is very well, but I have a question. I with like to know
12 how this commander, Radovanovic, military-wise, who does he report to?
13 Does he report to the JNA or is it a completely autonomous unit of --
14 similar to a paramilitary unit at work here, because page 5, paragraph 3,
15 you know, nothing escapes me, he does mention a warrant officer 2nd class
16 Vujanovic. Obviously he seems to belong to the JNA, and this person is
17 supposed to be in charge of the mortar battery. This Vujanovic also seems
18 to be connected to the TO in the village of Sodolovci.
19 So military-wise we have combatants on the ground. There's combat
20 activities going on, and there's a command. Now, that this one should
21 report to his political party, why should he not make a report to the --
22 to his military party? Maybe they're military secrets, and that's another
23 problem, of course. But you seem to say that with this report we have
24 basis for foundation for the theory according to which the Serbian Radical
25 Party is directly controlling armed forces on the ground, that this report
1 is the true example and a perfect example and illustration of this. This
2 is your theory. Fine. But -- but I would like to know exactly what is
3 the situation of this unit before going along with your theory, because if
4 for one -- in one way or another it is under JNA command, then I believe
5 that your theory should be very closely scrutinised. And you are not
6 telling us that as of July 7th, 1991, in this region, you're not telling
7 us exactly what is the military structure that is in place, and I believe
8 that this is missing, and this is creating a problem.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the situation in Western Slavonia is
10 discussed in a separate section in my report starting on page 124 of the
11 second part of the report. Now, to answer your question, theoretically --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not dealing with Western
13 Slavonia here at all but Eastern Slavonia. These are villages in Eastern
14 Slavonia where the volunteers were before the JNA entered into armed
15 combat with the Croatian paramilitaries. So we're dealing with Eastern
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is Eastern
18 Slavonia. So please go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS: As I mentioned earlier, the conflict is in full
20 development. At that stage, at the date of the document, 13th of
21 September, 1991, as I mentioned in the previous reply to a question, the
22 forces -- the forces in -- in Eastern Slavonia, there are problems with,
23 among other things, command and control, and that's why on the level of
24 the JNA measures are taken to restructure the forces in order to impose
25 single command and control.
1 Now, Srecko Radovanovic is a SRS volunteer. I have not found
2 information on any position or rank he held within the JNA.
3 To answer your question on the warrant officer, a warrant officer
4 is not an officer but it's a senior non-commissioned officer. Well, the
5 situation is such that at that moment in time in several areas as we have
6 discussed in relation to the problems the JNA was facing with mobilisation
7 and the call-up of reservists, there are even people within the JNA who --
8 who refuse to continue to serve in the JNA and, for example, here join a
9 local Serb TO unit or even a volunteer unit.
10 It is obvious that in theory the military hierarchy should have
11 acted against that, but we cannot draw a conclusion for this specific
13 Now, to further provide you information on the -- the situation in
14 Eastern Slavonia, I have heard from officers of the Guards Motorised
15 Brigade who were part of Operational Group south, so the Operational Group
16 that was in charge of taking Vukovar, that the situation with the
17 volunteers was such that one -- that on one day a whole group of
18 volunteers could have disappeared even though while they were
19 participating in the operation, they were under JNA command and control.
20 The other thing could happen, too, that two days later suddenly there's a
21 group of 500 volunteers who wish to -- who have been sent from Belgrade or
22 from Serbia to participate in the fighting. So it is very hard to provide
23 a sort concise answer that covers all the situations because we are in a
24 very de facto situation at that moment in time.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, it is a
1 complicated situation, and when a situation is complex, it's best not to
2 draw hasty conclusions.
3 If you look at the last page in this report, you see how complex
4 it is. Look at the fourth paragraph before the end. He says it's 1400
5 hours. He's talking about a motorised unit of the JNA in Laslovo, the
6 village of Laslovo. There's obviously a battle, and we know that JNA is
7 present there.
8 Next paragraph then we find out that five men were killed in the
9 battle, two SCP volunteers, two members of Arkan's unit, and the commander
10 of the defence of the village of Markusica. So when we scrutinise all
11 this, we find out there are several units involved. Several people, not
12 just SRS volunteers, other volunteers also and if there is a battle going
13 on at one point in time there must be some kind of command and control in
14 place. It seems that the JNA has a motorised unit present, so any logical
15 mind must draw the conclusion that it is not chaos that is occurring
16 there, but maybe it is, I don't know. But when I read this report, I note
17 there are people from Arkan's unit, from other political parties. They're
18 not just SRS volunteers.
19 What can you say about this?
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the situation should be that all the
21 units would be under the command of the -- under the command of the -- the
22 most senior JNA officer in the area. That is what the doctrine says.
23 That is what the law says.
24 However, as I've tried to explain, when we look at this particular
25 report in context and we -- we study the events in Eastern Slavonia and
1 the situation at that time, there is indeed -- I wouldn't call it chaos,
2 but there are problems with ensuring single and unified command and
3 control in the area.
4 As Kadijevic pointed out in his book and we discussed it, the
5 JNA's facing enormous problems with mobilisation and the call-up of
6 reservists. At the same time there are political parties in Serbia who
7 say, "Well, we don't trust the JNA because the JNA is Communist. We want
8 to defend the Serbs so we send volunteers." Eastern Slavonia is the
9 closest by area to Serbia. It's a direct border, the Danube River, to go
10 and participate in the fight in their view to defend the Serbs. So there
11 are volunteers or groups appearing in the area with their own internal
12 structure like, for example, the group of Radovanovic. There are also
13 other units in the area. The Serbs have established -- the local Serbs
14 have established local Serb TO units which is here called the command of
15 the defence of that village. There maybe barricades in some villages
16 whereas in another village five kilometres further, nothing is happening.
17 Just to -- I mean to -- to show to you the complexity of the
18 situation, the senior command, I mean the Supreme Command Staff is aware
19 of the situation and takes measures in the course of the months of
20 September, at least for Eastern Slavonia --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm trying to replace
22 these volunteers within the framework of a military operation, and I note
23 that you have not really worked in detail regarding this, and I'll
24 demonstrate this to you.
25 Go to page 6, paragraph before last -- before the paragraph -- the
1 second paragraph before the end. There are platoons cropping here and
2 there. So it seems that that is large-scale military operation underway,
3 and there was an artillery operation that had been planned for 7.00, 0700
4 hours, with 120-millimetre mortars, and they shelled until 0800 hours. So
5 everything was planned. This was not chaos. This was not improvised.
6 This had been planned.
7 So did you try and find the orders on the Croatian side on the JNA
8 side? In order to really investigate the combat action to draw the
9 conclusion, which if I follow your conclusion you're saying that on the
10 ground there are only SRS volunteers that are under direct command of the
11 Serbian Radical Party in Belgrade.
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I don't want to create the impression
13 that the conclusion you just mentioned that is my conclusion. My
14 conclusion is that the report shows certain things about the SRS
15 volunteers in the area. To answer the first part of your question, indeed
16 we have sent -- when I say "we," the Office of the Prosecutor has sent
17 numerous requests for assistance to first the Federal Republic of
18 Yugoslavia, then Serbia and Montenegro, and then Serbia in order to obtain
19 orders, documents of JNA units in Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, yeah, in
20 order to obtain these documents.
21 I don't remember whether there was a specific document for this
22 specific operation or whether we made a specific question for this
23 specific operation; but I can assure you, and if required I can bring you
24 a record of the requests we made that such requests have been made over at
25 least the past six years.
1 I have not been able to identify additional information which
2 would allow to determine in further detail what was exactly happening in
3 the area Radovanovic is talking about, but I believe that when taking --
4 when one looks to -- in context with the other documents I have quoted in
5 the report, that this document assists in drawing the conclusion I draw,
6 and I can repeat that conclusion. That is that this document shows that
7 the Serbian Radical Party has volunteers active in the area of Eastern
8 Slavonia. They are not the only volunteers. I haven't claimed that and
9 that these volunteers enjoy particular relations with the Radical Party
10 and the War Staff, whereby members of the War Staff can issue orders to
11 these volunteers, and there is also an internal hierarchical structure
12 within those SRS volunteers in the area.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN:
14 Q. I -- I --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I must intervene, Judge,
16 sir, because for quite some time this expert has been misleading you
17 intentionally. This is the period where the JNA was not yet participating
18 in the conflict. You see when at 1400 hours an armoured units of the JNA
19 arrived the fighting stopped. The volunteers were helping the defence of
20 Serbian villages and had nothing to do with the JNA, and yet the witness
21 is referring to orders issued by the Supreme Command. Your Honour can say
22 this can be dealt with in cross-examination but it's been going on for too
23 long. This is the period in which the volunteers of the Serbian radical
24 army did not have any links with the JNA. That's why they withdrew. They
25 were defending individual Serbian villages in the area.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard what's just
2 been said. Would you like to respond or not, or are you waiting for the
3 cross-examination? Yes, because the theory put forward by Mr. Seselj
4 several times already, he states that in September already the JNA
5 according to him is not one of the main parties to these operations and
6 they might not even be there at all, and spontaneous defence systems were
7 established either in the villages or by the TO. So this was then
8 reinforced by volunteers.
9 What do you have to say about this?
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I would reply the following way, that
11 is already during the incidents in Borovo Selo which is not so far away
12 from the villages discussed in this report, and I'm talking about the 2nd
13 of May, 1991, the JNA is sent to separate the warring parties.
14 The report sent by Radovanovic does not allow to draw the
15 conclusion as to what the JNA is doing. It could well be that at this
16 stage, so mid of September, some JNA units in particular areas where a
17 conflict erupts are sent to separate the warring factions. I would just
18 like to return to what I said earlier, that is that later on in the month
19 of September the Supreme Command issues certain orders and it's at the
20 latest on the 30th of September that we see the existence or written
21 evidence of the existence of Operational Group south in Eastern Slavonia.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN:
23 Q. Mr. --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN:
1 Q. Mr. Theunens, the -- the issue we are dealing with here is the
2 structure of the SRS, and many of these documents are referred to in
3 detail in subsequent parts of the report. So what I'm trying to focus on
4 here is really these structural issues. I'm sorry, we're blaming you,
5 Mr. Theunens, for doing anything here, but there's a question I think
6 arise with respect to this report which we should address.
7 Now, bearing in mind that we should not in public session to
8 reveal the source of the document, do you know from which archive this
9 document come?
10 A. I don't know by heart. I only -- all I know ask that -- no, I
11 assume it comes from the party archives of the Serbian Radical Party, but
12 I'm not sure of that.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, we'll make submissions on that later
14 on, but I do believe that this is correct, and in the B/C/S version of the
15 document, if you look at the top you will see some of the information that
16 we discussed yesterday in private session which identify which archive
17 this come from. The point here being that this kind of report was
18 actually sent to -- to --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could I please finish my sentence before you I
21 intervene? Thank you. That this document was available to the War Staff.
22 Mr. Seselj.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, evidently, evidently,
25 Mr. President, the OTP has acquired this document illegally, and it didn't
1 have to; but the OTP did not get this from the archives of the Serbian
2 Radical Party. That's for sure. And there's no evidence they received it
3 from the archives. They never asked for anything from the archives of the
4 Serbian Radical Party. Had they asked for something, they might have got
5 it or they might not, but they never asked.
6 This is not a secret document. The Prosecutor has Exhibit 958.
7 This was disclosed to us before this witness came to testify, and you see
8 an article from issue number 12 of the Serbian Radical Party, dated
9 February 1992, and the Prosecutor does not know about this even though
10 they got it themselves and yet it's published in there. And yet they are
11 presenting a document they acquired illegally.
12 I'm not challenging the authenticity of this document, but I'm
13 challenging its legality, the way in which it has acquired, and yet here
14 you have it published periodical and even illustrated with photographs.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We discovered that
16 this report was published, and we also discover that this report was
17 handed over to a member of the OTP.
18 What matters is not how the report was communicated. What matters
19 is what this report says.
20 Mr. Marcussen, we have five minutes before the break.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Now, in terms of the
22 structure and functioning the War Staff, the next issue I was going to
23 attack with the witness, so to speak, is the issue of deployment of SRS
24 volunteers. And again we, I think, have discussed some of these documents
25 before, but what I'll try to do is to go through one, two, three -- seven
1 documents relevant to this issue, ask briefly the expert to -- to explain
2 the relevance of these documents, and then I'm going to seek the admission
3 of the documents. I think in the interests of time it might be useful to
4 get through the documents and then discuss the conclusion that is flow
5 from this.
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, first I'd like to look at Exhibit 609.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which binder is this, please?
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: It is in -- in Your Honours' binder it's the next
9 document in the binder that you have. I'm essentially moving through the
10 tabs of the binder in the order that you find them there.
11 Q. Mr. Theunens, we now have the document up on the screen. Just
12 briefly, what is this document?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I can't find it
14 here, 609.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 609 came after the report by
16 Radovanovic. So after number 486. It's the document that comes right
17 after that one.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: And -- and it is displayed on the monitor. I also
19 just read out what it is. It says:
20 "Letter of authority. On behalf of the SRS volunteer unit,
21 commander Radovan Novacic is hereby authorised to coordinate on behalf of
22 the SRS with the Podravska Slatina TO staff and the staff of the Western
23 Slavonia district on issues related to the defence, manpower, and other
24 needs, in cooperation with the SRS Staff. The commander shall be recalled
25 at the intervention of the SRS War Staff in Belgrade." And then the
1 identification number of the person in question.
2 Q. Mr. Theunens, what does this show us about how volunteers were
3 deployed on the ground and under whose authority they fell?
4 A. Your Honours, this document shows that the SRS War Staff is -- has
5 the authority to appoint commanders to a group of SRS volunteers who are
6 deployed on the field, and also to what is called coordinate on behalf of
7 the SRS the activities of these volunteers with the local Serb Podravska
8 Slatina TO staff.
9 Q. And if we move on to the next document which is 690. And again
10 this would be the next document in the binder. We have here an order
11 issued by the chief of the War Staff, and now we have it up on the screen.
12 Mr. Theunens, is this a document that you've also used and does it
13 show the same kind of authority by the War Staff?
14 A. Yes, Your Honours. This document is used on page 134 of the
15 second part of the report.
16 Q. And the next document I'd like the witness to look at is 657, and
17 that also is marked for identification as P23.
18 Again, Mr. Theunens, is this a document that illustrates the point
19 you make about the manner in which SRS volunteers are being deployed on
20 the ground?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours. And this specific document deals with the
22 situation in Vukovar.
23 Q. Now, just to follow through with these -- just to illustrate the
24 type of documents and the regions they're being used in, the next document
25 is 500 -- excuse me. That's incorrect. Is 782.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. Perhaps
2 we could just keep this document on the screen for a short while, because
3 this has to do with Vukovar and the Leva Supoderica detachment.
4 Witness, this document is a document that stems from the Serbian
5 Radical Party. Is addressed presumably to the commander of this
6 detachment, and it seems that in the first paragraph we read that all the
7 volunteers are placed under the command of this commander with a view to
8 protecting Vukovar; is that right?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document seems to be saying
11 that the SRS War Staff has appointed Slobodan Katic, "a brave and
12 experienced soldier from Belgrade," him commander of the volunteers in
13 Vukovar. Is this what this document says?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, in military terms what
16 conclusions do you draw?
17 THE WITNESS: Go we could scroll a little bit downwards to see the
18 date of the document. So this document is dated 9th of November. At that
19 moment the situation in Vukovar is as follows, and the details can be
20 found in my report: We have as the main unit in the area south of the
21 Vuka river, we have the Guards Motorised Brigade, which also constitutes
22 the command of Operational Group south. Operational Group south
23 constitutes of the Guards Motorised Brigade the 80th motorised brigade,
24 units of the TO of the Republic of Serbia as well as --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down, Witness, please.
1 THE WITNESS: I apologise. As well as local Serb TO units,
2 including the TO Vukovar and the Leva Supoderica detachment.
3 I mentioned yesterday that all these units are organised in an
4 operational manner whereby the operation group consists of a number of
5 Assault Detachment and the assault detachments consist of a number of
6 assault groups. The assault groups more or less correspond with the JNA
7 companies, i.e., companies of the guards moment raised brigade, but they
8 are reinforced with other forces, local Serb TO, reservists and so on,
9 including, for example, the Leva Supoderica detachment. So Leva
10 Supoderica is part of a JNA-led assault group, but Leva Supoderica as such
11 is a SRS volunteer detachment which is commanded by somebody of the SRS
12 and somebody who had been appointed by the War Staff.
13 Now, I know from the events in Vukovar that the command of the
14 Guards Motorised Brigade was closely involved in the command structure of
15 Leva Supoderica, and if, for example, they did not agree with a person
16 being in command, then a member of -- or the command, at least the
17 commander, but also other members of the command of OG south could
18 intervene to replace the commander of Leva Supoderica.
19 And I remember but this is not addressed in the report, that
20 Slobodan Katic, who was first in charge of the TO Vukovar is replaced at
21 one moment in time by a person known as -- it's Vujovic or Vujanovic, but
22 the name is in my report. Okay, Milan Lancuzanin has been appointed by
23 the SRS War Staff.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well I shall stop you here
25 because it's now time to have break. The hearing has gone on for an hour
1 and a half already. We shall have a break and meet again at 2.30.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note clarification of
3 Judge Antonetti's comments it is hard to imagine a French person being
4 against a German or North American being against a south American because
5 of the civil war.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.34 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. A Judge
9 has a question to ask.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Theunens, I apologise because
11 I'm a woman and maybe women are not very good until military matters, but
12 out of these documents and out of your testimony I -- I understand, at
13 least that's my personal opinion, that the Serbian Radical Party and its
14 War Staff had authority, I don't know if it was military or political or
15 maybe only moral, I don't know yet, but it had authority as regards the
16 appointment of the units -- of the volunteer units, but then there's
17 another problem at that comes to mind, and maybe you can shed some light
18 on this to help me out.
19 I would like to know whether the commander of the Volunteers Unit,
20 which -- who had been appointed by this War Staff, by the SRS War Staff,
21 was also officially -- had also officially been appointed by the TO,
22 that's for the times when the JNA wasn't there yet, and later on by the
23 JNA. So that's my first question.
24 Then I have another question, which is still on the same document,
25 the last one we saw.
1 At one point in time you said that the Leva Supoderica detachment
2 was part of the Assault Detachments of the JNA. Is this what I
4 So there were assault groups. Now, who was in command of these
5 assault groups?
6 Now you have my two questions, and I would like you to shed some
7 light on this.
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, to answer the first question first,
9 the people in charge of a SRS volunteer detachment were appointed or put
10 in that position by the SRS War Staff. I have not come across examples
11 whereby the JNA -- the JNA commander in the area removes that commander or
12 appoints somebody else. Of course the matter is a bit more complicated.
13 When we look at the unit in Vukovar at one point Slobodan Katic is the
14 commander of the unit in Vukovar, and his name has appeared in earlier
15 documents. However, even though commands of the TO should be appointed by
16 the civil authorities according to the legislation as it is existed SFRY,
17 we see at the latest on the 23rd or the 24th of November, based on the
18 information I have seen, which is not included in this report, it is the
19 JNA, and in that specific case Colonel Mile Mrksic, who was the commander
20 of OG south who appointed Vujovic, Miroljub Vujovic to the position of
21 commander of the TO, local Serb TO Vukovar.
22 As far as the second question is concerned, indeed the command of
23 the assault groups that are part of the assault detachments of Operational
24 Group south in Vukovar, October, November 1991, were JNA officers. They
25 were in fact, if I remember well, all company commanders within the JNA
1 Guards Motorised Brigade at that time.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have an additional question to
3 follow up. Unless I'm mistaken, right now out of all the witnesses that
4 were called by the Prosecution, you are a military expert. Everything
5 you're saying, of course, is of great importance, and we pay great
6 attention to the questions asked and the answers given, and we will also
7 pay great attention to your answers to Mr. Seselj during the
9 Now, my fellow Judge has asked an absolutely essential question,
10 which is the following: Who is -- has the final say in appointing these
11 people, these volunteers from the SRS? So you answered from one aspect
12 talking about the TO and the JNA. But while I was here listening, to you
13 I was -- another idea came to my mind, especially when you know how
14 Territorial Defence operated in all these republics of the former
15 Yugoslavia where the municipal or regional criterion is extremely
16 important, and so I wondered whether it was possible that in a given
17 municipality X, with locals that would be there, would it be possible to
18 suddenly have someone come up from Belgrade who have been appointed as
19 commander of these locals? Here I think this -- this brings questions to
21 Let's imagine, for example, in Vukovar there's a lot of locals,
22 and suddenly a commander would be sent from Belgrade to command those
23 locals. So I think that this brings a question to mind in a -- in the
24 framework of -- if it happened in the framework of a political
1 Now, if there is an appointment that has been stamped by the JNA
2 or later on by the VRS in BiH as of May 1992, then it's easier to
3 understand that the military authority could impose commanders to the
4 locals, but we were talking about Vukovar. It's in the indictment, and we
5 will have to rule on this question later on.
6 So regarding Vukovar, the commander of the Leva Supoderica
7 detachment, a commander who had been appointed at first, could you confirm
8 that he had been appointed by the TO, by the municipality, if I could say
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the part of the complexity arises from
11 the fact that what you point out is -- is hundred per cent correct but we
12 are dealing with de facto structures. The TO in Vukovar is not the TO as
13 it existed prior to the conflict, i.e., a TO unit which would respond to
14 the authorities of the Republic of Croatia. In this particular case local
15 Serbs have established their own TO unit in Vukovar.
16 Milan Lancuzanin, who was the commander of Leva Supoderica,
17 whereby Leva Supoderica is the name of a geographic area in Vukovar; he is
18 a local. I have no information on the circumstances of his appointment,
19 but I can mention, and that is reported -- that is included in my report,
20 that he's confirmed as the commander of Leva Supoderica by the SRS War
22 In the SRS party magazine Velika Srbija, it is also mentioned that
23 Leva Supoderica is a Chetnik detachment.
24 At one moment when Milan Lancuzanin is proclaimed Chetnik Vojvoda,
25 and this is on page 119 in part 2 of my report, he is identified as the
1 commander of the Leva Supoderica Volunteer Unit of the Serbian Radical
2 Party and the Serbian Chetnik Movement.
3 So even though Leva Supoderica is a unit of the local Serb TO, it
4 is also identified in SRS documentation as a SRS document. And the
5 complexity of the whole issue lies in the fact that we're talking about de
6 facto units, self-established units which use de jure names like TO, but
7 in fact they're something else.
8 I'm not sure that answered your question, but --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So assuming that
10 what you're saying is true and cannot be challenged, if we take the
11 assumption that the SRS has authority to appoint commanders with those
12 self-proclaimed TOs or those de facto TOs, let's assume that this is the
13 case, but in terms of military -- in terms -- in terms of the military, I
14 mean, these people, they're not Boy Scouts, you know, they're servicemen.
15 They're soldiers, and they're supposed to fight with weapons, with
17 So what I would like to know is the following: In their military
18 action, when they decide, you know, to carry out a military action, are
19 they doing this under the authority and under the control and under the
20 command and control of the SRS War Staff, or are they -- do they enjoy a
21 great autonomy of action, or is this autonomy of action controlled either
22 by the local TO, even if it's a self-proclaimed TO, or by the JNA, if the
23 JNA is present?
24 So what I would really like to know is the following: Is there a
25 connection, not in terms of the appointment, but is there a connection a
1 link as to the military action carried out locally, a link between the
2 Serbian Radical Party and those people that are in the field?
3 Let me give you an example. Let's say that in an area X a unit of
4 the Serbian Radical Party with a commander that had been appointed by the
5 SRS, who may even been a Vojvoda, who might have been made Vojvoda, if
6 during military action he decides to attack Croats or Muslims or who knows
7 what, capture prisoners, so launch a military action, is he doing this on
8 the order and instruction given by the SRS? That's the crux of the
10 You know that in terms of military -- the military, you know,
11 there's always planning, orders, and things just don't happen at random.
12 So I would like to know the following: When there's a military action, is
13 it done under the local command of people who might have been appointed,
14 maybe so, by the SRS, or is it controlled by the staff of the -- 100 per
15 cent by the staff of the SRS? This is absolutely essential here.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, just to -- as an introduction, I would
17 like to mention that this report and my testimony is based on the
18 documents that can be found in the footnotes. So all I do is -- is
19 explain what is mentioned in those documents.
20 To explain -- to answer your question, the short answer is we have
21 to look at the specific situation. As you pointed out, military action is
22 normally -- or military activity is determined by orders, written or oral
23 orders. Whenever we had written orders for the areas discussed in the
24 report, they are included. From those, we can conclude that for what
25 Vukovar is concerned, as long as OG south exists, and Leva Supoderica is
1 part of OG south, the military operations are ordered by the commander,
2 i.e., from the commander of OG south through the chain of command, to the
3 command of the south group to which-- or in which Leva Supoderica is
4 included. However, this subordination does not rule out that Leva
5 Supoderica maintains certain contacts with the SRS War Staff. And these
6 contacts can concern the exchange of operational information, requests for
7 promotion, and related matters.
8 When we look at Western Slavonia, however, the matter is more
9 complicated, because there we see, and I'm summarising what is actually
10 discussed in detail in the report, that there are close contacts between
11 the local Serb TO staffs -- staffs of various municipalities and also the
12 regional local Serb TO staff on one hand and the SRS War Staff on the
13 other hand, for example, for the provision of manpower for the local Serb
14 TO in Western Slavonia. And in the exchange of information we see that
15 the SRS War Staff imposes certain conditions to the local Serb TO before
16 the volunteers of the SRS can be sent. We can also see from these
17 documents that it is the SRS War Staff who appoints people who are to be
18 in charge of these volunteers.
19 I make a leap now to Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the situation in
20 Sarajevo after May 1992, where we see that the relationship between SRS
21 volunteer detachments in Sarajevo, and there are four, and we will discuss
22 them later, and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps is, to say the least,
23 complicated because there is one example -- or there are several examples
24 where the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps complains about the
25 behaviour of SRS volunteers. However, when General Mladic, chief of the
1 Main Staff of the VRS, orders to arrest one of the SRS volunteers, and I'm
2 talking now about Vasilije Vidovic, also known as Vaske, the local VRS
3 commander says, well, actually there's no need to arrest him because he is
4 very useful doing operations. And Vaske clearly been appointed not by the
5 VRS but by the SRS War Staff.
6 And maybe one last element you spoke about that these were all
7 people with military background. I just would like to point out that, for
8 example, in Vukovar Lancuzanin, in an article in Velika Srbija, was
9 described as a carpenter, and Miroljub Vujovic was a taxi driver. They
10 were -- they obviously did their military service but they didn't have the
11 same level of military education and training as JNA officers.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to my fellow
13 Judge because she has a question, and then to Mr. Seselj, who wants to
14 take the floor.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, please one last
16 question. You're talking about self-proclaim, de facto, so regarding the
17 TO in Krajina controlled by the "Serbian rebels." So I'd like to know
18 whether the Serbian law wasn't still applied there? It wasn't on the
19 Serbian TO, on the deployment of volunteers and so on? So you're saying
20 de facto, but de facto in relation to the authority that Croatia could
21 have had, is that it? Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: Maybe for the record I can reply that indeed the
23 authorities of the SAO Krajina in August 1991 adopted a decision to apply
24 the law of defence of the Republic of Serbia on the territory of the SAO
25 Krajina. And if I remember well, similar decisions were taken in the SAO
1 SBWS. So when I use de facto as the Judge pointed out from the point of
2 view of the Croatian authorities.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Marcussen.
4 You will have the floor, but Mr. Seselj would like to say something on a
5 particular topic, and I know which one.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have three brief objections,
8 Judges. I couldn't interrupt you when you were putting your questions,
9 but answering your questions off the top of his head, the witness
10 overstepped by far the content of his expert report. He went far beyond
11 it. There are things that he said which are not contained in the report
12 and for which there is no evidence.
13 He said at one point Slobodan Katic was the head of the
14 Territorial Defence. This concerns Vukovar he has no evidence to support
15 this, please ask him to provide it; further he said that the Serbian
16 Radical Party confirmed the command of Milan Lancuzanin Kameni over the
17 Leva Supoderica detachment. Please ask the witness to provide evidence
18 for this.
19 And thirdly, he has just stated that the War Staff of the Serbian
20 Radical Party appointed Vasilije Vidovic Vaske as the commander of the
21 volunteers in Vogosca and Ilijas. Please ask him to provide any evidence
22 he may have to support this. He has to base these claims on evidence.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Admittedly these are questions
24 that could be put during cross-examination, but to try and see where we
25 stand, because this is rather complex, I think it is better that the
1 witness answers straight away.
2 Now, you have understood as far as Mr. Katic is concerned, who
3 according to you had been appointed commander of this detachment, what did
4 you base this on?
5 Now, as far as Kameni is concerned, he seemingly also would have
6 been appointed by the SRS. Which document can you put forward in support
7 of this?
8 And the third point which had to do with Vidovic, once again what
9 evidence do you have to support that?
10 THE WITNESS: For the first question, Your Honours, the position
11 of Slobodan Katic as commander of the TO, I remember that TO Vukovar from
12 the evidence that was given in the Vukovar trial. However, from 65 ter
13 number 657 that was discussed earlier today, which is an a SRS War Staff
14 document, it states that Slobodan Katic is the commander of the volunteers
15 in Vukovar.
16 There is also 65 -- excuse me, MFI P25, which states that Katic is
17 the Chetnik commander Vukovar, whereby to come back to a previous question
18 you asked --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as far as Slobodan
20 Katic is concerned, this document which I have before me, 657, it does
21 state that he is commander of the volunteers, but he don't state that he
22 is the commander of the detachment. Do you understand the difference?
23 It's not quite the same to -- when you're commander of volunteers unit and
24 a commander of a detachment, that's not the same thing.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...
1 may, Mr. President. Now the witness is refers to a document signed by
2 Katic as the Chetnik commander for Vukovar. You may recall that this is a
3 document dating from the time after the liberation of Vukovar when Katic
4 remained to live in Vukovar. When Goran Stoparic testified we established
5 this definitely. So the document dates from the period after the
6 liberation of Vukovar, not during the fighting for Vukovar. The man
7 stayed there. He remained residing there.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which documents -- document
9 appoints Katic commander of this unit? Not after the fact, not after the
10 events in Vukovar.
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I will try and clarify. I remember
12 from the evidence that was presented in the Vukovar trial that
13 Slobodan Katic was the commander of the local Serb TO in Vukovar until
14 sometimes in October or November 1991. And for those who would like to
15 see the details about that, I think there is the testimony of Katic as a
16 Defence witness in that trial.
17 What I've done afterwards, I referred to 65 ter number 657, which
18 dates from the 9th of November, 1991. Just to clarify, Vukovar fell on
19 the 18th, so this is amidst the operations. This document states that the
20 SRS War Staff has appointed Slobodan Katic as the commander of the
21 volunteers in Vukovar.
22 So I hope -- this is the information I can provide in relation to
24 The relation -- the information in relation to Lancuzanin, I would
25 have to look in my report to give you the concrete reference. But, for
1 example, on page 117 -- on English page 117 in part 2, mention is made of
2 an interview with Branislav Vakic, who was also a senior SRS volunteer
3 when he talks about the fact that one group of Chetniks had already been
4 deployed on the approach to Vukovar -- or to the town, but it's Vukovar,
5 under the command of Milan Lancuzanin.
6 Furthermore, there is a reference -- when you look at the order
7 for the -- as I mentioned, the proclamation of Lancuzanin to Chetnik
8 Vojvoda, his title is described as commander of the Leva Supoderica
9 Volunteer Unit of the Serbian Radical Party and the Serbian Chetnik
11 My understanding was that Lancuzanin, having already living -- or
12 living already in Vukovar prior to the start of the operations established
13 his own unit, but thanks to his links with the SRS, he obtained additional
14 manpower. So not only volunteers but volunteers from -- volunteers from
15 Vukovar but also people from outside Vukovar, in particularly Serbia. And
16 based on the fact that Milan Lancuzanin is mentioned as the commander of
17 Leva Supoderica in several SRS documents, I concluded from that that he
18 was confirmed as the commander of Leva Supoderica by the SRS.
19 Coming now to Vaske, we would have to go to the Sarajevo section
20 in part 2 of the report.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll get back to Kameni. In
22 any case, this man Kameni, if nobody calls him to testify, the Trial
23 Chamber can ask this gentleman to come and testify.
24 That said, we know that Kameni is a person from Vukovar. He
25 wasn't sent by Belgrade. He was from Vukovar. We know that he becomes
1 the commander of that detachment, but he might have become commander
2 without the SRS, the Serbian Radical Party, having had a hand in this. He
3 might have been a commander before his personal merits, which I think I
4 acknowledged by the Serbian Radical Party that appoint him Vojvoda. Very
5 well. But as far as Kameni is concerned, this person may have developed
6 his career inside the unit without this necessarily having had anything to
7 do with the SRS, and the SRS may have had nothing to do with his promotion
8 in the military, but his sheer qualities were such that the SRS decided to
9 appoint him and give had him this title of Vojvoda.
10 It is very difficult -- it is difficult for us to understand what
11 is going on, because depends from which angle you look at it, of course,
12 and the consequences aren't the same.
13 If you put yourself in the shoes of the SRS and he is the man who
14 is running the show, this means, of course, that his responsibility can be
15 alleged, or we're talking about a political party that is playing a
16 political role, a moral role, whatever you want to call it, but where
17 command structure is separate and not under his control.
18 Therefore, there are two alternatives which can be taken into
19 account here. Which alternative do you choose?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a short comment. The
21 Prosecution is intentionally hiding an important document here. The
22 document will show me while I was testifying in the Milosevic trial, and
23 it is an order by the commander of the 1st Guards Mechanised Motorised
24 Brigade or commander of Sector South for the volunteers of the Serbian
25 Radical Party to be deployed in the Leva Supoderica detachment. The
1 Prosecutor has that document but doesn't wish to show it in this trial,
2 whereas it was shown in the previous trial.
3 The commander of the 1st Guards Brigade issued an order that the
4 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party coming to Vukovar should go to the
5 Leva Supoderica detachment, and I'm sure that this expert witness had that
6 document in his hands too.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you answer my
8 question and in fact in Mr. Seselj's comment, in other words, a document
9 was tendered in the Milosevic trial, document which pertained in this
10 particular issue.
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the documents I reviewed do not allow
12 to conclude how Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni, became the
13 commander of Leva Supoderica. However, the documents show that Leva
14 Supoderica is a Chetnik detachment, and this document I'm citing is an
15 article which was published in Velika Srbija titled "Serbian Vukovar will
16 live on."
17 On page 108 of the second part of the report, I mention a
18 handwritten letter bearing a stamp of the Vukovar TO which deals with and
19 I quote, "The legalisation of the functioning of the unit detachment Leva
20 Supoderica." This letter is 65 ter number 590.
21 In the letter it is also stated that Milan Lancuzanin will be the
22 commander of Leva Supoderica.
23 Now, when I said earlier that I don't -- I cannot establish the
24 circumstances for the appointment of Lancuzanin, I mean -- I meant by that
25 that I have not been able to find information on the person who signed the
1 letter in 65 ter number 590. We know it's a Dusan Filipovic, but I have
2 not been able to find more information on that person, as I said.
3 To answer Mr. Seselj's question, I -- I would be very happy to see
4 the document. It may well be that it has been presented in the Milosevic
5 trial, but I don't remember that I came across this document while
6 preparing for this report. Now, if we can show the document during
7 cross-examination I think that would be very helpful in order to establish
8 its importance.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sure he will do that, I
11 Now, the third point. The -- Vidovic's position.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours. We would have to go to the
13 Sarajevo section in my report which starts the second part English page
15 Now, I think the best information on the links between Vidovic and
16 the SRS could be found in -- I only have the 65 ter number, but 65 ter
17 number 2030, which the Chetnik Vojvoda proclamation order because it will
18 include a short CV of Vidovic, but I don't remember the exhibit number it
19 has received.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: It is P218, Your Honours.
21 THE WITNESS: So I think the best would be to have a look at that
22 document and then we can all see from the document what the CV of Vidovic
23 is as well as his relation with the SRS War Staff.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and move on, please.
25 Mr. Marcussen, I'm sorry if we ask these questions, but we have
1 all understood that military issues are extremely important, and for the
2 time being we have the witness in front of us, the expert witness in front
3 of us.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed, and I hope he is of assistance to -- to
5 the Court. I believe I have you've used less than three of the five hours
6 that I have with the witness, so I'm just concerned whether we're going to
7 have the witness survive this, but we will move on quickly.
8 Your Honours, we were on the issue of deployment of volunteers,
9 and I believe we had reached Exhibit number 782, which maybe we can also
10 call up on the screen.
11 Now, this is a document that I think we can pass fairly quickly.
12 It's an authorisation from the War Staff for the purpose of establishing
13 law and order and control in Western Slavonia.
14 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you have the document in front of you, is this
15 one of these documents that you have also looked at with respect to the
16 issue of deployment of volunteers and, if so, what does it show?
17 A. Indeed, Your Honours. This document is also included in my
19 The document shows that the chief of the SRS War Staff has the
20 authority to appoint somebody, in this case a Milan Dobrilovic, to
21 establish law and order and control in Western Slavonia. He is also
22 authorised to supervise all the volunteers in cooperation with a
23 Colonel Jovan Trbojevic in command of the Territorial Defence.
24 Now, in the section, Western Slavonia, in my report I explained
25 that Jovan Trbojevic is a JNA officer who has been appointed to be the
1 command of the local Serb Territorial Defence in Western Slavonia.
2 Q. Now, the next three exhibits go together, so if Your Honours would
3 bear with me while I go through the three documents with the witness. I
4 would be grateful.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Witness, my
6 colleague was telling me something which is important.
7 This document which we have before us which shows that
8 Milan Dobrilovic is -- has a particular position. This document clearly
9 shows that he needs to work in cooperation with the commander of the
10 Territorial Defence. He's not the big boss. A colonel is also there.
11 And furthermore, if you look at the title of the document, it is not an
12 order. It says "Authorisation." I don't know that -- what this might
13 tell us. This could also be for information purposes or a statement or
14 proclamation or -- it doesn't say "Order," an order that needs to be put
15 into effect.
16 What we can see is that Dobrilovic has been given powers by the
17 SRS, but this doesn't mean that there is a military connection between the
18 SRS and the local unit.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the -- the use of the
20 word "Authorisation" in a written document to me shows that
21 Milan Dobrilovic can use it almost as a letter of authority. This
22 document shows that Dobrilovic has authority. So if -- when he goes to
23 Western Slavonia and even if he collaborates with Jovan Trbojevic. Well,
24 when he go and see the SRS volunteers in the area he can use this document
25 to tell them, "Look, I have been sent by the SRS War Staff --"
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have another question, a
2 follow-up question. We have several documents that are issued by the
3 Serbian Radical Party. So far no one has put a question about this. I
4 was waiting to get more information before putting the question.
5 Now that we have this document before us, let's look into the
6 reasons why Milan Dobrilovic was appointed here. This is with a view to
7 establishing law, order, and control. That is the reason why, law, order,
8 and control, and we have a swathe of documents that are issued by the SRS;
9 and these always refer to law, discipline, reminders of the law, and every
10 time I look at all these documents, I might be right, I might be wrong, I
11 have the feeling that the Serbian Radical Party was extremely concerned
12 about the fact that these "volunteers" should respect law, order, and
13 anybody who failed to comply with disciplinary measures had to be notified
14 to the SRS. In all these documents, we always see that there is a
15 reminder of this, and this is particularly striking, because this is the
16 object of this authorisation. Through military action to capture
17 prisoners, not to capture people, but enemy soldiers. It does not say
18 that one should -- this is a -- for Dobrilovic the obligation to have law
19 and order respected. It's not a matter of attacking people, capturing
20 people, killing, or affecting the integrity of people or of people's
21 property. All the documents we have seen are in the same vein.
22 So have you noticed this or has this escaped you?
23 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honours, I'm very conscious of that, but I
24 would like to clarify focusing on three aspects.
25 First of all in the military in very general terms in an order has
1 to be repeated several times like for example even if it's an
2 authorisation but still this emphasis on the requirement to establish law
3 and order, it means that there is a problem, because otherwise there's no
4 need to repeat or to reissue orders. So the fact that this aspect is
5 re-emphasised several times to me would first show there is a problem.
6 Secondly, that's maybe more related to the testimony here, there
7 are many more documents included in the report. We have obviously -- or
8 the Prosecutor has obviously only chosen a few ones. I can assure you
9 that in the document -- in the report I also have documents from JNA
10 officers in the same area who actually complain about the behaviour of SRS
11 volunteers and who refer to the commission of crimes like looting, burning
12 of houses and other serious crimes which they include in their reports to
13 their superiors and where they sometimes ask their superiors to do
14 something about it. And if you wish so, I can point some of these
15 documents out, but for Western Slavonia, for example, on page 137 and
16 following, especially on page 138, we have the -- the MFI P187 and related
17 to that we have 65 ter number 958 and 933, where the involvement or the
18 alleged involvement of an individual known as Jovan Kulic, who according
19 to an SRS publication was a member of the Kragujevac Chetnik detachment,
20 whereby Kragujevac is an important city in Serbia, and so there are
21 various documents from -- from the military as well as from the military
22 prosecutor on involvement of Kulic in crimes, whereby Kulic is also
23 identified as a self-proclaimed captain who robbed and looted in Western
24 Slavonia in -- in a 5th JNA corps confidential document which corresponds
25 with 65 ter numbers 933.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're absolutely right.
2 There is a great deal of documents showing that volunteers of the SRS may
3 have committed crimes that may be described as criminal. No one denies
4 that. It's obvious. But what we find is that the SRS, on numerous
5 occasions, reminds everyone that there are crimes committed, that measures
6 need to be taken, that law and order need to be re-established. It's not
7 an encouragement to continue with these things.
8 In any army you have black sheep, including in the best and most
9 famous armies in the world. You always have them. And this is even more
10 so when you're dealing with volunteers who have not been properly trained
11 or educated and who might be tempted to commit crimes.
12 The impression I get is that after a number of crimes were
13 committed and everybody was aware of these crimes, a general conclusion
14 is -- is drawn, that is that all SRS volunteers are criminals, and
15 therefore that -- the fact that crimes were committed comes as no
16 surprise. That seems to be the theory you develop in your report.
17 It might be the case. It might not be the case. We would need to
18 look into these crimes very thoroughly to determine whether that is the
19 case or not, but does this necessarily mean that the SRS was the one who
20 gave the orders for these crimes to be committed in the field? What do
21 you think?
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, as I said before, the report is based
23 on documents. I have not come across a document where, for example, the
24 Serbian Radical Party orders volunteers to commit crimes. I would find
25 that quite unusual to put that in a document.
1 Now, I think whether the volunteers are more likely to commit
2 crimes than ordinary soldiers, that's a matter where I have an opinion and
3 views based on my military experience, but I have not addressed that in my
4 report. So if you wish, I could elaborate on that, but it's not addressed
5 in my report.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. What matters for the Judges
7 is the following: We have all these documents issued by the SRS. Are
8 these documents that encourage the volunteers of the SRS to respect law
9 and order, or are these documents that encourage them to commit crimes?
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I believe that it -- it's not possible
11 to categorise these documents, the SRS documents I have reviewed in such a
12 way. There are indeed documents like this one to -- that call for
13 establishing law and order and control, but I could also say that actually
14 law and order and control only addresses the situation among the SRS
15 volunteers and not law and order in general as we would understand it.
16 In addition, in the report when discussing the situation in
17 Vukovar and also the -- the role of Milan Lancuzanin, I have included some
18 quotations of an article from the party magazine of the SRS, from Velika
19 Srbija, whereby the -- the treatment of a prisoner of war is being
20 discussed in rather graphic terms. And this article can be found on
21 page -- English page 122 in the second part of the report, and this
22 article corresponds with 65 ter number 957.
23 And, okay, Velika Srbija is the official party magazine whereby
24 Mr. Seselj is the founder and the editor of the magazine. And the article
25 I mentioned doesn't make a direct call to commit crimes, but the
1 information that is mentioned does not suggest a call to respect law and
2 order or to abide by the Geneva Conventions pertaining to the treatment of
3 prisoners of war either.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. That's what you say.
5 We'll probably come back to that later.
6 Mr. Marcussen, I know that you've used up three hours. You have
7 two hours left.
8 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As another name was mentioned,
10 Judge, I think that the witness is duty-bound to provide information
11 straight away since Jovo Ostanic [phoen] was a member of the Serbian
12 Radical Party and whether he was in Vukovar as a volunteer of the Serbian
13 Radical Party.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, the accused is commenting and -- and
15 requesting the witness for information which he can lead during his part
16 of the examination. This is not proper for the accused to intervene in
17 this way.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj. You'll come
19 back to that issue during cross-examination. The Trial Chamber has been
20 very flexible so far, but the problem is that we'll use a lot of time if
21 you keep making interruptions, and then there could be -- an imbalance
22 between the two parties.
23 Mr. Marcussen.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. The next three documents, as I mentioned, go together. They are
1 in your binder next to each other. The first one is 65 ter number 570.
2 Mr. Theunens, is this -- this is a request for reinforcement, and
3 I think you have already explained these three documents when you
4 testified last week. Could you briefly tell us what is it these next
5 three exhibits show, and then we will walk through them afterwards.
6 A. Your Honours, these three documents show an exchange of
7 information between the Podravska Slatina local Serb TO staff and the
8 Serbian Radical Party War Staff.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's in binder 1, Your Honours, towards the end.
10 THE WITNESS: So I will repeat --
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. Mr. Theunens, yes.
13 A. So these three documents represent an exchange of information
14 between the Podravska Slatina so Western Slavonia local Serb TO staff and
15 the SRS War Staff for the provision of manpower to the Podravska Slatina
16 local certain TO by the SRS War Staff.
17 Q. And I believe you mentioned these yesterday, or on Thursday last
18 week. So the first document, 570, is a request for volunteers. Then the
19 next document, 582, I believe you have mentioned this is a response, and I
20 am correct, what you have noted here this is a document where certain
21 conditions are put on the deployment of volunteers?
22 A. Indeed, Your Honours. So the deputy chief and the SRS War Staff
23 replies to the request, and he says, "Well we can fulfil the request
24 provided that three conditions are fulfilled." They deal with technical
25 matters, but also the third point, "coordination with our unit command,"
1 and "our" then refers to the SRS volunteers.
2 Q. And am I correct that this is one of these type of documents that
3 you refer to to illustrate that SRS units deployed were -- had an internal
4 command structure and then dealt with either Territorial Defence or JNA,
5 so to speak, toward the outside --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
7 a leading question, Mr. President.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: This has been answered several times and --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection. You can't
10 ask questions that way. I am warning you. You can't pose leading
11 questions, and I have the right to interrupt you and object.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, apparently your
13 question was a leading question.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. The expert is an expert witness. He has
15 already set out this in his report.
16 Q. But anyway, Mr. Theunens, what conclusion do you draw from this
17 kind of document as to the relationship between the internal organisation
18 of the SRS units and the command structure they might be fitting into
19 above the unit so to speak?
20 A. Well, the conclusion I draw from this and actually we addressed
21 that earlier is that even though during operations these volunteers are
22 subordinate to the JNA or they are part of the local Serb TO, they still
23 maintain certain relations, certain links with the War Staff, and I would
24 just like to refer in this context to the document we discussed earlier
25 today whereby Zoran Rankic went on a fact-finding mission to Western
1 Slavonia on the orders of Mr. Seselj and the War Staff.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: And then, Your Honours, if we turn to the next
3 document which is number 594.
4 Q. I believe, Mr. Theunens, this is then the document you referred to
5 in your report as being the acceptance of Mr. Rankic letter; is that
7 A. Yes, that is correct, Your Honours. So the local Serb TO staff in
8 Podravska Slatina accepts the conditions imposed by Zoran Rankic and also
9 provides information on how this would be done.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: So, Your Honours, this is the end of the documents
11 I'm going to show the witness on the specific issue of the manner of
12 deployment of the volunteers, and I'd like now to ask for the admission of
13 the following exhibits, and I'd like to request that they be placed under
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we -- before we move into the question of
16 admission of these documents, if I could just ask the witness to turn back
17 to Exhibit 65 ter -- sorry, not exhibit but 65 ter number 582. Thank you.
18 The third condition which is being put by Mr. Zoran Rankic that
19 the TO establishes "coordination with our unit command," what does that
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I will start with -- with the
22 definition as it existed in JNA doctrine of coordination. Coordination
23 does not imply subordination, but coordination is imposed by superior
24 command. For example, if two battalions of a brigade have to coordinate
25 their activity or their operations, this coordination will be imposed by
1 the brigade commander, and it will be aimed at harmonising the activity.
2 So that's the military significance of coordination.
3 Now, Zoran Rankic also uses the word "coordination," drawing the
4 parallel with the military definition. One could conclude that Rankic
5 asks the TO staff in Podravska Slatina to harmonise its activities --
6 excuse me, to harmonise the activities of the Podravska Slatina TO staff
7 and the activities of the SRS volunteer unit that is the command -- excuse
8 me, the command of the SRS volunteer unit that is about to be deployed.
9 Now, how this was done in practice, I would then like to refer you
10 to the other documents in Western Slavonia -- on Western Slavonia that is
11 discussed in the report.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. We have seen those, but it still leaves at
13 least me with an unclear impression of the command relations in the TO
14 after the arrival of the volunteers from SRS.
15 Apparently the volunteers kept their own unit command, and
16 Mr. Rankic puts up as a condition for the dispatchment of these volunteers
17 that the TO unit coordinates with the unit command.
18 In practical terms, Mr. Theunens, how would this work out? Who
19 would give the orders to organise the combat activities in which these
20 volunteers would take part, and who would be in command of the time and
21 the manner and the place where the attacks should be launched?
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, normally there would be single
23 command, and if JNA and TO were in the same area, the JNA commanding
24 officers would be in command.
25 Now, the SRS volunteers that are being sent are part of a separate
1 unit which is a sub-unit of a higher-level unit whereby, similar as it was
2 in Vukovar, they are pat of the chain of command. So the SRS volunteers
3 are part of the TO and receive the orders for combat activity or actions
4 and operations from the next upper level in the TO/JNA chain of command.
5 However, this document, similar as the others, also indicates that even
6 though they are subordinated to the TO or even part of the TO, they
7 maintain particular relations with the SRS War Staff.
8 Now, I have not seen an example of the SRS War Staff issuing an
9 order for dealing with operational matters. For example, like tomorrow
10 you will attack village X. I have not seen that. However, from JNA
11 documents I have seen that they stated, well, at one day the volunteers
12 withdrew or they left.
13 Now, we cannot rule out that they left or withdrew out of their
14 own initiative, but it's more likely that actually they withdrew or they
15 undertook a certain activity following orders from the SRS War Staff if
16 there were no orders from the JNA, because in the military activities and
17 operations imply orders. So -- and if it's not the JNA who orders, it has
18 to be another body that has -- that is in a position to order. And a
19 document like this one suggests that the SRS War Staff is in such a
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question of my fellow Judge
22 is very similar to my concerns. I think we should look again at this
23 document. It is essential.
24 If we've understood what you've told us so far, you know, and of
25 course with all the documents we've seen so far, it seems that the Serbian
1 Radical Party in 1991, let's take October, for example, since we have a
2 document dating October, this party has the possibility of sending
3 volunteers on the field. That's something we know.
4 Then second, this may be contested, there are documents going in
5 one direction, documents going in the other direction, but if need be the
6 SRS can supply weapons and some logistics. So I think this is carved in
8 Okay. So let's take a look at this document we have here. We
9 have this Mr. Rankic addressing himself to the Territorial Defence of this
10 municipality, of the municipality of Podravska Slatina, and this is what
11 he's saying, calling them dear brothers, which probably means they're very
12 close, but this is what he's saying: He fully understands the problems
13 that they are facing, and he adds, "In order to help you, you must meet a
14 number of criterion, certain conditions," and there are three
15 conditions. "We want to know what is the situation regarding food,
16 logistics. We want to be -- we want to know about weapons, disposition of
17 troops on the terrain, and we also want to know about the coordination
18 with our unit command," which is probably the War Staff. And Mr. Rankic
19 asks, "If you can fulfil all these conditions, we will supply you with the
20 men you need, volunteers."
21 As far as I'm concerned, these documents seem to show that the SRS
22 can provide assistance in terms of men, maybe also in terms of resources,
23 but not at any condition. They want to assess the situation first to see
24 whether this assistance should be sent out or not. So here it's obvious
25 that the SRS will provide help and assistance.
1 Now, helping does not mean that -- in military terms, you know,
2 that they're also going to be in charge of command and control and,
3 furthermore, of directing the military operations.
4 Do you agree with this or not?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours, I agree with you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. One last question
7 now. Have you ever found documents that would set out that the SRS played
8 a role to trigger off or maybe to direct or to control or to command the
9 military actions that were carried out on the ground through planning,
10 through risk assessment, through mobilisation of forces, because on their
11 own, you know, these volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party wouldn't be
12 enough. So do you -- have you ever found documents that would really
13 establish that the SRS played a driving role in the decision-making
14 process when it comes to military operations that were carried out on the
16 Let's not talk about Vukovar. I don't think you can answer the
17 question using Vukovar, because we know that there was some kind of
18 control, and the -- it wasn't the SRS that directed the military operation
19 on the ground. You said yourself that there was a unity of command there.
20 Did you find documents that really set out, establish, that the
21 SRS not only assisted the TOs, you know, through logistical help,
22 resources or men, but actually played a role in directing or triggering
23 off the military operations regarding these volunteers that were set out
24 on the ground?
25 I mean, we've been coming back to this for days now, but this is
1 really of the essence.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I understand the importance of this
3 issue, and I'm afraid I'm going to provide the same reply that I gave
4 earlier, that is that I have not seen documents where the SRS War Staff or
5 anybody else from the SRS issues orders for specific, call it tactical or
6 operational matters. Like, for example, as we have JNA orders for Vukovar
7 to attack part X, Y, Z of the city. I have not seen such documents.
8 However, I have attempted to include in the report documents that
9 show that the SRS doesn't only recruit and assist in the dispatching of
10 volunteers but also, as you mentioned the word "control," control can be
11 seen in the term "inspection," i.e., to see to what extent an order has
12 been implemented. We spoke this morning about the report Zoran Rankic
13 sent to the SRS War Staff following the order he had received from
14 Mr. Seselj and the SRS War Staff to carry out a fact-finding mission in
15 Western Slavonia.
16 Now, if -- I mean to me at that suggests that even -- no. I
17 apologise. I would rephrase that.
18 If the volunteers had been ordinary volunteers as foreseen in the
19 law, there would be no reference to the political party these volunteers
20 belonged to. They would just have been ordinary volunteers, would be
21 integrated into existing JNA or TO units. We see that the emphasis is
22 late on the fact these are SRS volunteers. In most of the JNA documents I
23 have seen or VRS documents where we talk about or SRS volunteers are
24 mentioned, the fact they belong to the SRS is emphasised by indicates to
25 me that this is linked, this allegiance has an importance.
1 The documents I have included in the report also show that members
2 of the SRS War Staff or senior SRS volunteers are called commanders of the
3 SRS volunteers in a number of areas where these volunteers are active, for
4 example --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But these
6 volunteers, did you -- do you have a figure for them? Do you know how
7 many there were in 1991, 1992? Could you give us an assessment? It's
8 probably going to be a ballpark figure, but how many are they, 1.000,
9 10.000, 100.000? Could you give us some --
10 THE WITNESS: I would say --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- Could you give us a figure
12 because this is not an innocent question.
13 THE WITNESS: I would say that less than 1.000 whereby I would
14 like to emphasis that we see that volunteers, some volunteers move from
15 area to area, and this is in particular to the situation with people who
16 are proclaimed Vojvoda later. So for example somebody like Branislav
17 Gavrilovic, excuse me, is first active in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
18 Srem, then we see him in Northern Bosnia then we see him in Sarajevo so
19 even this 1.000 it doesn't mean 1.000 different volunteers it's probably
20 much less even though the estimates by the SRS are much higher.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you assess their number
22 altogether as being a thousand at most.
23 THE WITNESS: It would be a good estimate, yes, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, I was asking this
25 question because this morning I was looking at the Krajisnik judgement
1 where there's a paragraph on the paramilitary units operating in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Out of memory, it's -- they said there were about 60
3 of them in that judgement representing altogether 4.000 to 5.000 people.
4 So for these SRS you're telling me that there are a thousand
5 altogether? So according to you since you're the expert, you're number
6 one expert at the OTP regarding these issues, so it would be in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina do you think there were about 5.000 to 6.000 people
8 that were attached to paramilitary units?
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, when you give that figure it's on one
10 side, the Serbian side in the conflict, or all parties?
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, just Serbian side.
12 THE WITNESS: It is possible. I have not studied all the groups
13 that are known as paramilitaries, but it's possible. I wouldn't come up
14 with a higher estimate, because in particular on the 28th of July, 1992,
15 after the -- Colonel Tolimir provides a report on paramilitaries and
16 volunteers, so Colonel Tolimir of the Main Staff of the VRS, provides a
17 report on paramilitaries and volunteers, and this is followed by an order
18 from the level of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina to subordinate all paramilitaries or volunteers to the VRS or
20 to have them disarmed. So -- which means that the figure is probably
21 address the situation, yeah, prior to this order or the situation between
22 1992 and 1995. So a global total.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, because I
24 would like to hand the floor back to Mr. Marcussen. We talk at length
25 about these Serbian volunteers, you know we've been talking about them for
1 hours now, and I'm sure it's not about to end, but a thousand persons? Is
2 it marginal or is it a significant number in relation to the conflicts
3 that occurred in Croatia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, maybe even Vojvodina? Is
4 it a marginal number or is it an essential number?
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if you would allow me I would like to
6 ask from which context. In which context do you mean marginal or
7 important whether it's from --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Military-wise. Military-wise in
9 combat, you know, in combat between factions, warring factions.
10 Let me give you an example just to give you a few figures that
11 come to mind. The 3rd Corps in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the BiH 3rd Corps
12 represents more than 125.000 soldiers. So what's a handful of volunteers?
13 A thousand volunteers, is it marginal, 1.000 compared to 120.000? That's
14 the type of comparison I'm looking at. So these volunteers that we are
15 talking at length about, military-wise was there an important component or
16 was it just a marginal component?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I will refer to the JNA documentation
18 I have reviewed whereby most of the JNA documentation where commanders
19 expressed their views on volunteers. They have a negative view on
20 volunteers and state, well, their contribution to the combat is almost
21 marginal or non-existent. However, General Miriksic [phoen], he praised
22 the volunteers after the fall of Vukovar. General Biorcevic he considered
23 Arkan and his people heroes because they continued where the members of
24 the JNA refused to continued.
25 We discussed earlier from Vaske Vidovic that General Mladic
1 said --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Hold on. Arkan is not the SRS.
3 THE WITNESS: No, no, Your Honours. I'm giving a general reply,
4 volunteers without making any reference to whether -- to their allegiance.
5 So in summary JNA and VRS documentation rather negative
6 assessment. On the other hand, even if the combat, the impact or the
7 combat role of these volunteers is limited, I think one should never
8 underestimate the motivational aspect of the whole issue of volunteers.
9 Volunteers and in particular the SRS volunteers or Serbian volunteers and
10 particularly the SRS volunteers are fighting for what they call the
11 Serbian cause. Officially, they are fighting to liberate or to protect
12 the Serbs. This almost brings us to a question you raised earlier, Your
13 Honours, about guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla armies are in general much
14 smaller than conventional armies but they have one strength, they have the
15 strength of ideology and ideology as Mao said is actually much more
16 important than structure or weapons. I would even expand that statement
17 to Serbian volunteers because they're also fighting for --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm stopping you here
19 because we have a problem with Mao Tse-tung, Mao Zedong.
20 THE WITNESS: The importance of ideology and especially for the
21 volunteers that their motivation or their ideology is the key issue and
22 when it comes to criminal behaviour, it's not a matter of how many people
23 are involved but mainly what they are doing and for what purposes they are
24 using this ideology, and I think that is the key issue in the whole matter
25 we're discussing.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's say out of a thousand
2 Serbian volunteers, which is a ballpark figure, according to you and
3 according to all the documents that you have perused, reports and so on,
4 how many committed crimes, 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 50 per cent? Is
5 there an order of magnitude? Ballpark figure again. You know, that would
6 give us an ideas to whether it was marginal or essential.
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I haven't conducted any research,
8 conducted any statistical research, so I wouldn't be able to answer that
9 question. I can only refer to JNA and VRS documents where they emphasise
10 the involvement of volunteers in crimes but there are no statistical data
11 or studies as you are looking for included.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have no data to give us
13 and you established no comparisons with crimes that were committed by the
14 other warring factions. This was not part of your survey.
15 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... I've had
16 statistics in my training and I think all starts and ends with the
17 accuracy of your data and having no access to accurate data I don't have
18 an overall overview of all the crimes that were committed or not in the
19 conflict and by which parties. So even if I would have attempted, I don't
20 think it would be relevant to come up with such a guess, actually, because
21 it would be highly inaccurate due to the absence of accurate data or
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. I continue now on the -- with some documents relating to the
1 arming and equipping -- equipment given to --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Marcussen, admission?
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour, for reminding me. Before
4 we --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have lost sight
6 of what is most important.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now I would like to request the admission under
8 seal of the following documents: 609; 690; 657, which is also MFI P23;
9 782; 570; 582; and 594.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These are all the documents
11 which we have discussed in the presence of the witness; is that right?
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed, before I move on to the next topic.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Please proceed.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had some objections.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As all these are public documents of
17 the Serbian Radical Party and only the source from which the documents
18 arrived in the OTP is suspect, I demand that all these documents be
19 available to the public in full. There is no reason for them not to be
20 available to the public, because there is general agreement that we will
21 not investigate the manner in which the OTP came by these documents.
22 Everybody mentioned in the documents is a public figure.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unless I'm mistaken, none of
24 these documents have been asked to be tendered under seal. 609, 690, 670,
25 yes, all of them.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: If I --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So Mr. Seselj, as
3 far as what you've just said is concerned, the Trial Chamber has decided
4 to rule on this after your cross-examination. So we shall then see which
5 documents will be made public and which documents will nonetheless remain
6 under seal.
7 I cannot answer right now. I cannot respond to your question
8 whether these will be admitted under seal or not, but we can already give
9 an exhibit number of these documents, registrar please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 609 will be Exhibit
11 number P223. 690 will be Exhibit number P224, 65 ter number 653 will be
12 P23 --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please start again because
14 there's a mistake. Please from the beginning again, please.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. 65 ter number 609 will be
16 Exhibit number P223, 65 ter number 690 will be Exhibit.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 609 will be Exhibit number P223; 65
19 ter number 690 Exhibit number P224; 65 ter number 657 will be Exhibit
20 number P23; 65 per number 782 will be Exhibit number P225; 65 ter number
21 570 will be Exhibit number P226; 65 ter number 582 will be Exhibit number
22 P227; and 65 ter number 594 will be Exhibit number P228 all provisionally
23 under seal.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Marcussen,
25 before the break we have five minutes.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Theunens, the next topic I would like to move into
3 concern the arming and equipping of volunteers. Before we did go into the
4 actual documents, who -- how -- how were the volunteers, the SRS
5 volunteers, armed and equipped based on your analysis?
6 A. Your Honours, based on the documents I have reviewed for the
7 report the SRS volunteers received their weapons and equipment from three
8 organisations consisting of the JNA, the Ministry of Interior the Republic
9 of Serbia and also the ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, I would like now to do as last
11 time, move through the tabs as they come in the binder. In the interests
12 of time, I'll pass 1913, so the first document I'll ask you to look at is
13 1804. A lot of these documents are very short --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President, I was
15 waiting for this document 1913 to come up. I don't think I can overlook
16 this. I don't think the Prosecutor should be allowed to just skip over it
17 because there's nothing here to show who drew this document up, where,
18 when, what the date is, what does it mean? It looks as if the Prosecutor
19 might have a composed it himself. I think I have right to have the
20 meaning of this document explained to me.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well I need to find document
22 1913 in my binder.
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: It is --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So let's look at document 1913
25 on the screen, please.
1 Mr. Marcussen, this document 1913, where does it come from, how
2 did you get it, and so on and so forth, since this has been disputed.
3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, the accused is making an objection
4 to the admission of a document that I have not requested admitted. Now,
5 if Your Honours would like me to go into the document I'm happy to do so,
6 but I've actually not made any request with this respect and it -- but I
7 mean maybe we should simply use the last three minutes before the break to
8 cover this document.
9 Q. Mr. Theunens --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you would like to
11 discuss a document, but you're not asking for this document to be
12 tendered. So what's the point? What's the point of presenting a document
13 if the Bench cannot use it afterwards, because if the document is not
14 tendered, there will be questions and answers but no more than that.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, I -- as I said, in the interests of
16 time I was going to pass over this document for the time being and see how
17 much time we have at the end because I'm concerned about the time that is
19 Now, as I stated, I will be requesting at the end that all the
20 underlying documents get admitted, but I'm at -- I'm at the hands of the
21 Court. If you would like us to deal with this document, it might be
22 convenient for logistical reasons as it is here. It mainly deals with
23 training and equipment -- equipping of volunteers.
24 Q. Mr. Theunens, have you -- have you discussed Exhibit number 1913
25 in your report?
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, I have mentioned that document whereby I also
2 indicated that it is unsigned and that the date is handwritten on the
4 Q. And, Mr. Theunens, do you remember on the top -- off the top of
5 your head where this document come from?
6 A. This document was provided by a sensitive source to the
7 investigator during an interview.
8 Q. If -- with respect to the issue of arming and equipping and maybe
9 training of volunteers, just in short what does this document show?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Yes?
12 *THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are not interested mainly in the
13 contents of the document until we learn from what confidential source it
14 comes and what it is. I know what their confidential source is but they
15 have to say that here to me and to you, that special source whose name is
16 General Aleksandar Vasiljevic, who I have mentioned several times, drew up
17 these documents subsequently for the needs of this trial.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Accused Seselj is telling
19 us that the document was handed over by General Aleksandar Vasiljevic.
20 Can you confirm this? No?
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: I should like to ask this to be redacted from the
22 transcript. The Prosecution cannot have its sensitive sources revealed,
23 and I'm not confirming whether it is correct or not that the document has
24 been provided by that source, but it is impermissible for the accused to
25 say these sort of things in public session.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Marcussen.
2 We will have ample time to redact this when necessary. I have just read
3 about this person. Is he a protected witness in this case? Because if he
4 is a protected witness in other cases, I know nothing about this. Perhaps
5 the accused with his connections knows that this document was drafted by
6 this general, and he is telling us that so that the Chamber is not under
7 the impression that it is being manipulated and that documents are being
8 presented without anyone knowing where these documents come from.
9 So if this document stems from a witness whom you are going to
10 call to testify, then there's no problem whatsoever. Then I will redact
11 this part of the transcript. But if that is not the case, then we face a
12 problem, because protected sources in other cases apply to the other
13 cases, but in this case it is an accused who is being tried.
14 So this document is in support of the JCE in the sense that the
15 SRS allegedly helped volunteers. So when the judgement is handed down,
16 this could be a very damning document for the accused.
17 So first question, what is the source of the document? Is the
18 source indicated here or does the source stem from another case?
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Assuming that -- as far as I'm aware this document
20 does not come from a witness in this case. I am reluctant in public
21 session to discuss what source has provided this information to the
22 Tribunal. I'll be happy to -- to make, for example, a written submission
23 on this issue --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session
25 in that case. Let's move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 3921-3922 redacted. Private session
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
9 MR. MARCUSSEN:
10 Q. Mr. Theunens, I believe we sort of ended up in Exhibit 1913.
11 Could you briefly tell us what this document, according to you, tell us
12 about arming and training of volunteers?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we cannot discuss this
16 document until we know what it is. What is the document?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Seselj.
18 During the break the Judges considered the matter of objections,
19 and we realised that because of these objections we are wasting a great
20 deal of time. Of course you're entitled to raise objections, but an
21 objection should be made when the Prosecutor asks for a document to be
22 admitted, and the objection may be accepted if the document is a false
23 document. But if you raise an objection for a document that has indicia
24 of reliability or that is related to what the witness says, then we're
25 just wasting time.
1 Secondly, some of your objections pertain to the contents of the
2 expert's report or to his statement, and that's something that you should
3 do as part of your cross-examination, because if you don't proceed that
4 way, then the Chamber has to rule on each and every one of your objections
5 and has to ask questions in order to obtain additional information.
6 I've just been told that the Prosecutor has used 2 hours and 50
7 minutes with four hours of Judges' questions on the contents, on the
8 substance, and on the objections and so on and so forth.
9 Of course I'm ready to admit that some objections may be
10 justified, but don't object for the sake of objecting, because what
11 matters is the substance.
12 You know that the final judgement will not deal with the
13 objections but with the substance of the documents.
14 If a document is a forged document, no problem. Say it. It's
15 your duty to say it. But if, according to you, this document is not a
16 forged document or if it's a document that has some relevance, please do
17 not raise an objection just to obstruct the examination-in-chief.
18 You are dealing here with Judges who are familiar with the way
19 trials are conducted in this Tribunal. We might be wasting time.
20 I'm going to give the floor, I don't know what you want to say,
21 but let me just say that we decided to tell you this as -- by way of an
22 introduction, but you have the floor.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you and your
24 colleagues consider that I'm making objections for the purposes of
25 obstruction, then I can give up making any more objections during the
1 examination-in-chief. I can do that. However, I can consider that it is
2 impossible to discuss this particular document because it's not a document
3 at all. It hasn't got the markings of a document.
4 Now, the Prosecutor can find a piece of paper on the street and
5 way, "Now, let's discuss this." So I think this is quite unacceptable,
6 and that is why I'm objecting to it.
7 Now, if you consider that this can be discussed without knowing
8 what it, in fact, is or who wrote it or published it, there's no name, no
9 stamp, no date, there's something handwritten that appears to be a date,
10 but what are we discussing here?
11 Now, if you consider that this objection of mine is obstruction,
12 then I say straight away I am not going to make any more objections if you
13 say I am now obstructing the proceedings.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a look at the
15 document in question. What was the number again, Mr. Marcussen, was it
16 19 --
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: 1913.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's still the same
19 document as before but --
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: But -- sorry.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Seselj, I think we --
22 the matter is closed.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your permission,
25 we don't know if it is a document emanating from General Vasiljevic, and I
1 doubt that it is but we don't know whether it is I don't have any proof to
2 show it is. We don't have any proof to show whose document it is. There
3 is no markings there. It's just a piece of paper. Perhaps somebody
4 picked it up from the waste -- the Prosecutor picked it up from a waste
5 paper basket. You can't have documents presented in this way.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have to redact the name of
7 the general.
8 But Prosecutor, Mr. Prosecutor, there's no signature on this
9 document. You ever not provided any additional information with respect
10 to this document. What can you tell us? Because you see, anyone could
11 have given you this document. This might be a document that came from the
12 Office of the Prosecutor. It might be a document coming from someone who
13 is trying to manipulate you.
14 We need to have some information that would allow us to check the
15 relevance, the probative value of this document.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would suggest that we review
17 this document, we proceed with the analysis of this document, and then
18 later on we'll see whether we can find something out about the provenance
19 of this document. Otherwise, we would have seen this document to no
20 avail. We can't keep wasting time this way. We need to move ahead.
21 So if we start look at this document, let's do it properly.
22 That's my suggestion.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's examine, let's
24 analyse this document and then we'll see what we should do.
25 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... documents in my
1 report just to -- for one paragraph that is mentioned in the document that
2 is on the English translation on page 5, and it's the third paragraph from
3 the top where the issue of arming of volunteers, more specifically SRS
4 volunteers, is being discussed.
5 Now, I would like to add that on page -- starting on page 40 in
6 the second part of the report, I include statements by Mr. Seselj and
7 other officials of the War Staff on arming of the volunteers and they
8 include the same information, meaning that the arming was carried out by
9 JNA, Ministry of the Interior the Republic of Serbia, and Ministry of
10 Defence of the Republic of Serbia.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN:
12 Q. So is it -- if I can paraphrase that, you're saying that this --
13 the information in this particular document, or at least the part you are
14 quoting this document for is corroborated by all the information in your
15 report and that's why you have included it?
16 A. Yes, Your Honours.
17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, Your Honours, I was going to propose that we
18 go to some of these other documents which illustrate this point unless
19 Your Honours want to --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I may have misunderstood
21 but I have the following question: Witness, you tell us that at paragraph
22 2 of page 5 of this document, you say that the weapons were provided by
23 the JNA. That's what I thought I understood.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours, it's the third paragraph, and if
25 I can read it out. It says: "A large number of people who have joined
1 these formation are armed mostly with small arms from depots of the former
2 JNA." Because the document is from 1993 the JNA ceased to exist in May
3 1992 and was replaced by the VJ. MUP, which means Ministry of Interior
4 and Serbian Ministry of Defence that were distributed in large numbers to
5 volunteer forces engaged on the fronts in Croatia and BiH and in most
6 cases were not returned. The fact that the link -- or the reference is
7 made to the front in Croatia and BiH allows me to conclude that we're
8 talking about the distribution of weapons in 1991 and 1992.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. But who distributed these
10 weapons? Who distributed the weapons? That's the problem.
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, from a commonsense points of view,
12 weapons which are stored in depots of the JNA are under military control,
13 so weapons can only be taken from these depots with the formal military
14 authorisation which has been provided by -- by the commander.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So it's not the Serbian
16 Radical Party that distributed the weapon but the army that did it.
17 THE WITNESS: Indeed, Your Honours, but the War Staff acted at
18 least as an intermediate in the distribution of weapons to SRS volunteers.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if I may, Your Honour, unless you wanted to
20 explore this with this particular document, the next document -- the next
21 couple of documents cast some light on this particular issue.
22 If Your Honours look at the next document in the binder which is
23 1804, you will see we have a certificate which bears the stamp of the SRS,
24 and this is a document certifying that a certain person has returned a
25 rifle that was issued to him at Bubanj Potok barracks and that this has
1 been returned.
2 Q. Now, these barracks, Mr. Theunens, do you know who were in control
3 of these barracks?
4 A. Your Honour, these barracks the Bubanj Potok, which is part of
5 Belgrade, were part of the barracks of the JNA city command in Belgrade.
6 I have also seen information which indicates that the Ministry of Interior
7 took over control of the barracks, but I have not been able to corroborate
8 that latter information. When I mention Ministry of Interior it's
9 Ministry of the interior of the Republic of Serbia.
10 Q. And the next document is number 666, and this is a request from
11 the War Staff to a Territorial Defence and the Bijeljina area, which says:
12 "We ask you to provide a certain quantity of weapons in accordance
13 with the official establishment of a company for the purposes of ..." and
14 so on and so forth.
15 Mr. Theunens, this a document you have looked at also in this
16 context of arming SRS officers -- volunteers?
17 A. Indeed, Your Honours. And again such documents allow to conclude
18 that mechanisms have been put in place in order to distribute the weapons
19 to SRS volunteers through the SRS War Staff.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if Your Honours would follow with me to the
21 next exhibit which is 1129, 65 ter number 1129, we have here a request for
23 Q. Mr. Theunens, would you explain what this document is, please.
24 A. So this is a request signed for Lieutenant General
25 Ljubomir Domazetovic who was responsible for mobilisation at the Federal
1 Secretariat for People's Defence. So the 3rd administration. It's not
2 signed by him, but it's somebody who has the authority to sign in in his
3 place, to issue 50 camouflage uniforms to a group of volunteers through
4 the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence. And Ljubisa Petkovic is
5 authorised or is the person who is designated to be in charge of these
6 volunteers to collect the uniforms.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: And again, Your Honours, if you would follow with
8 me to -- under the next tab which is 65 ter number 1119, we have a similar
9 type document.
10 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you would explain us what level in the hierarchy
11 this document belongs to and what it is.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I had a personal comment to
13 make, but I'll do that later.
14 Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this document, 1119, is a receipt, and
16 it's a standardised form used by the Republic of Serbia Ministry of
17 Interior whereby Ljubisa Petkovic, who is the chief the War Staff, signs
18 for the reception of 780 insignia for berets.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN:
20 Q. Mr. Theunens, I think maybe we went out of -- out of sync here I
21 think the next document you're referring to is the next one we're going to
22 get to, which is 1539.
23 A. Sorry.
24 Q. Can I ask you to go back there is another SSNO document to the
25 quartermaster dated on the 13th of April.
1 A. Oh, yeah.
2 Q. 1119.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It's very similar to 1129.
5 A. I'm sorry. I jumped a document. I apologise.
6 1119, yeah, also deals with the issue of uniforms. This time 52
7 camouflage uniforms by an organ of the SSNO signed by a Colonel Todorovic
8 to --
9 Q. And -- sorry. This is also referred to in your report?
10 A. Indeed, Your Honours.
11 Q. Now, then the last document in this section of exhibits which deal
12 with arming and equipping is the document that Mr. Theunens just talked
13 about, sorry, 1539.
14 Mr. Theunens, could you repeat what you said about this document,
15 please? It's a receipt?
16 A. Yeah, a receipt signed by Ljubisa Petkovic for the reception of
17 780 insignia for berets from the ministry of interior of the Republic of
18 Serbia, and it's dated the 31st of July, 1992.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: So, Your Honours, at this stage I would like to
20 see the admission of these documents and they will have for the reasons
21 already explained be under seal.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President, the
23 Prosecutor and the witness must in this document 1539 where mention is
24 made of the Republic of Serbia. Where does it say that? Where does it
25 say that the receipt is taken for the beret insignia from the Republic of
1 Serbia, which they've just told you?
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, at least in the English translation
3 it says, "Receipt." The title of the document is, "Receipt for Weapons and
4 Ammunition Issued by the Republic of Serbia Ministry of the Interior."
5 Now, I don't master Cyrillic, I'm afraid, but it comes from the
6 title of the document.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it says at the top that this is
8 for Bijeljina. Perhaps you didn't hear me. It says Bijeljina at the top.
9 Not for the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: The document is -- the name as I can see it on the
11 top is to Ljubisa Petkovic who is the recipient, and what the Bijeljina
12 reference is we don't know, but the point simply here is that
13 Ljubisa Petkovic received these insignia from the MUP of Serbia. Maybe to
14 be taken to Bijeljina, I don't know.
15 Q. Can the witness shed light on this or?
16 A. No, Your Honours. I know that SRS volunteers were involved in the
17 takeover of Bijeljina. They were led by Mirko Blagojevic, but I have no
18 further information in relation to this particular document.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you state once again that this is
20 an inappropriate objection, then the same holds true and I won't make any
21 more, but it says Ljubisa Petrovic. The Prosecutor says Ljubisa Petrovic,
22 and I think the witness said the same, whereas the chief of the War Staff
23 of the Serbian Radical Party is Ljubisa Petkovic with a K. Petrovic and
24 Petkovic are two different surnames.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Maybe there's a
1 little mix-up. This receipt seems to be signed by a Petrovic and not
2 Petkovic. That's not the same person. And it seems that this is received
3 in Bijeljina. These are beret insignias, 780 of them.
4 Maybe this has absolutely nothing to do with the SRS.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Might I be allowed to add, Judge,
6 look at the date. It's July. Bijeljina was liberated in April, and this
7 is July, and we're dealing with insignia on police caps, berets, where the
8 Serb flag has been stylised, and they are police insignias, not military
9 ones or volunteer ones. But if you don't think my objection is
10 appropriate, I'll stop it all.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Yes, I heard your
13 But, Mr. Prosecutor, do you maintain your request or do you
14 withdraw it? It seems that this document has nothing to do with the SRS.
15 Furthermore, these are insignias for police berets.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, I would like to have this document
17 marked for identification. I think if -- well, dependent on which
18 witnesses we eventually get, we will be able to clarify this. This is a
19 document that have been provided to us by a person who will be able to
20 explain this, and -- but it would be best, I think, only to mark it for
21 identification at this point.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, we
23 need some numbers under seal except for this one. This one will get a MFI
24 given the reservations expressed.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: [Previous translation continues] ... 65 ter
1 numbers or --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please do so. And the report
3 also for the -- the report 1913 must also be marked for identification.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. 65 ter number 1913 will be
5 Exhibit number P229. I do apologise 65 ter number 1913 will be MFI 229;
6 65 ter number 1804, Exhibit number P230. 675 ter number 666 will be
7 Exhibit number P231; 65 ter number 1129 will be Exhibit number P232; 65
8 ter number 1119 will be Exhibit number P233; and 65 ter number 1539 will
9 be MFI P234 all provisionally under seal.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me return to
11 what you said earlier. Here -- here in this case your objection was fully
12 justified and well-grounded. So you wanted to note that there are
13 objections that can be grounded, but I also want to show to you that
14 sometimes you raise objections that deal with things that could be dealt
15 with in the cross-examination.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, the next three documents have been
17 included for the purpose of discussing with the witness payment of
18 volunteers and their families.
19 Q. Mr. Theunens, what do you conclude about -- well, basically who
20 were volunteers that were sent out by the SRS? Were they being paid?
21 A. Indeed, Your Honours. Like -- like any other volunteer, SRS
22 volunteers were being paid. We see from the documents that are included
23 in the report that this is done through the -- or with the assistance of
24 the SRS War Staff, which has established relations to that effect with the
25 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia. And excuse me, also the
1 intervention or the cooperation with the ministry for -- the Serbian
2 ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.
3 Q. And were arrangements also made for the payment of family members
4 of the SRS in case a volunteer would get killed, for example, at the
6 A. Indeed, Your Honours. And more specific documents can be found in
7 part 2 of the report, page 58 to 60.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, if you would once again follow
9 with me in the binder. There are just three examples of this kind of
10 documents to illustrate this point.
11 The first one is 65 ter number 1020. This is an announcement from
12 the Serbian Radical Party stating:
13 "We're hereby informing all volunteers that wages for
14 participation in combat operations in Western Slavonia, 5th Corps zone of
15 responsibility will be paid on the 26th, 27th, and 28th of March, 2000,
16 from 1300 to 1700 at the 4th July barracks in Belgrade." And then it
17 explains how family members can also collect these wages.
18 Q. Mr. Theunens, the 4th July Barracks Belgrade, who were at those
20 A. Your Honours, these were JNA barracks which were also used for the
21 training and equipment of volunteers. The fact that the payment is done
22 in Belgrade indicates that among the SRS volunteers fighting or
23 participating in the fighting in Western Slavonia must be a significant
24 number of people originating from Belgrade or its -- or its surroundings
25 or at least Serbia, because one wouldn't invite locals from Western
1 Slavonia to travel to Belgrade to collect their money.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if Your Honours will follow me then to the
3 next document. It is 639. We have here a document which is relevant to
4 the issue of the financial compensation to family members of killed
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, is this one of the documents you referred to in your
8 A. Yes, Your Honours, and it's of interest that the request is
9 addressed to the ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, Your Honours, this was sort of a landmark
11 document in the sense that we have now finished binder 1, and I would ask
12 you if you would follow me now to binder 2 to look at the first
13 document --
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. With this last
16 document -- of course during cross-examination Mr. Seselj can come back to
17 this, but I'm in control of the examination-in-chief; and we want to avoid
18 wasting time, so if we could solve a problem -- or settle a problem right
19 away, it's best to do it immediately rather than wait for the
20 cross-examination. I think that would save time.
21 This document is sent by the Serbian Radical Party to the ministry
22 for relations with Serbs outside Serbia.
23 I'm speaking under your control, Witness, because you have worked
24 on this document. This document states that the Serbian -- obviously the
25 Serbian Radical Party is requesting the approval of the amount of 50.000
1 dinars being for Aleksandar Mirovic killed in Vukovar on 2nd November
2 1991; Mirovic being a volunteer who had been assigned to the Vukovar
3 Territorial Defence and who lived in Belgrade, and we have his address.
4 So when I read this document, the Serbian Radical Party is calling
5 on governmental authority, making a request. It's not we pay, it's we
6 request here. So they're asking for 50.000 dinars to be paid out, but who
7 is paying? Is it the Serbian Radical Party, or is it the authority, the
8 governmental authority, who receives this letter?
9 THE WITNESS: The ministry for relations with Serbs outside Serbia
10 who makes the payment, and this is in line with -- okay.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Serbian Radical Party is
12 drawing the attention of this ministry, requesting for Mirovic's family to
13 be paid out 50.000 dinars, but it's not the Serbian Radical Party that's
15 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honours. What we can conclude from the
16 document is there must be a procedure whereby the Radical Party or the War
17 Staff intervenes on behalf of its volunteers in order to ensure that they
18 are paid or that their relatives are paid in case of the volunteer being
19 killed during the fighting; and it's coherent with what I discussed on
20 page 79 in part 1 of the report where a number of financial measures are
21 being discussed --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that. But
23 what difference do you make in the fact that, you know, a political party
24 would ask a ministry to pay some kind of amount to a combatant and a
25 social worker that would maybe draw the attention of this ministry on the
1 desperate situation and the destitute situation of this family is or the
2 imam or the Pope or the priest that would send a letter to the ministry
3 drawing the attention of the ministry on the situation of this family,
4 saying 50.000 dinars would come in very handy. Is there a difference that
5 it is a political party asking for the money rather than someone else?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if you look at the document in
7 isolation, and if you make abstraction from the fact that the payment is
8 related to the participation in combat operations of this volunteer,
9 there's nothing wrong. Any political party or anyone -- anyone could ask
10 a ministry to provide social for humanitarian assistance to private
11 persons, but what is important is that, first of all, it deals with the
12 payment of a volunteer who is originating from Serbia and who allegedly,
13 according to the document, served in the Vukovar Territorial Defence. So
14 the local Serb Territorial Defence in Vukovar, even though he lived in
15 Belgrade --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, but in the zone
17 of responsibility of the 5th Corps, but that is exactly what is stated in
18 this document.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I see this reference, Your Honours,
20 but --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was maybe
22 mistaken. There was a previous document where there was a reference to
23 this. It was the previous document that there was a reference to 5th
25 So here it is a member of the Vukovar Territorial Defence. That's
1 obvious from the document.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question. The Vukovar
3 TO, at that time, and we're talking about November 1991, was it part of
4 the armed forces? And I'm not saying JNA. I'm saying armed forces of --
5 of the Republic of Serbia.
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, as we have discussed earlier, at that
7 moment in time the TO of Vukovar, which prior to the war was part of the
8 TO of the Republic of Croatia, has split, and -- into mono-ethnic or --
9 let's call it Serb-dominated and Croatian-dominated structures. The
10 Croats have joined the ZNG and forces of the Ministry of Interior, whereas
11 the Serbs continue to call their structure the TO, actually it's the local
12 Serb TO, and they respond to Serbia. They have nothing to do with the
13 Republic of Croatia.
14 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry, I don't want to testify for -- on behalf
15 the witness, but just for --
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please don't.
17 MR. MARCUSSEN:
18 Q. But for -- to clarify, Judge Lattanzi asked about the armed forces
19 of the Republic of Serbia. I believe you testified that doesn't exist.
20 What armed forces is it you're answer relate to --
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, armed forces of the republic
22 that were still existing at the time. It was the Socialist Federative
23 Republic of Serbia. This is the entity I was mentioning. I know -- this
24 was it.
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: I just want to make sure there was no conclusion
1 so obviously not. So I don't think we need to go into this further.
2 THE WITNESS: In very simple terms we could call it forces
3 fighting on the Serbian side, but it would be a highly unscientific
4 definition; but I think we understand each other. Yes, Your Honours,
5 and --
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Theunens, before we jump out of this binder
7 could I call you back to 65 ter number 1020, the previous document.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN:
9 Q. Mr. Theunens, that is the announcement --
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Exactly.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's coming up on the screen right now. My
12 question is if you have any information about how the Serbian Radical
13 Party was able to announce and indeed to pay the money that was promised
14 or announced to the volunteers. In other words, is there an underlying
15 document that shows that the SRS was applying for money to pay the
16 volunteers from the government, or do you know if the radical -- the
17 Serbian Radical Party was able to drum up this money from private funds?
18 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, to -- to answer in relation to this
19 specific document, my understanding is that the SRS is only making the
20 announcement and inviting its volunteers to come and collect the money at
21 that location, but the money's provided by the Serbian government.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you have any evidence of this?
23 THE WITNESS: The only evidence of that is the information I
24 discussed in part 1 of the report where I elaborate on the measures taken
25 by the Serbian ministry for Serbs outside of Serbia who announce in the
1 parliament that they have prepared a number of -- taken a number of
2 measures to ensure the financial compensation of payment of volunteers. I
3 have seen documentation about the -- indicated the SRS had obtained
4 financial support from Serbs outside of Serbia donations of humanitarian
5 aid and so on, but I have no information as to whether this -- those
6 donations were used to pay volunteers or not.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN:
8 Q. Mr. --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This -- this document is
10 astonishing, if I could say so, because it all depends on how you read it.
11 You will know, for all documents, it all depends how you read it. You
12 could read it with this in mind, thinking that the Serbian Radical Party
13 is paying, which is why my fellow Judge asked the question, and you could
14 not answer it because you say that according to you, it's the government
15 who paid. But -- and if it was the radical, the Serbian Radical Party
16 that was paying, that would be rather astonishing. How could he pay
17 soldiers who were regularly under the 5th Corps of responsibility? Maybe
18 that could be envisaged but that could be quite extraordinary.
19 But secondly if that was the case, then the Serbian Radical Party
20 would need to have very deep pockets to do that, either because through
21 donations or because they had, you know, coffers that were full. That's
22 one way you could read it. And this could be -- this could be
24 Now, in the English version, I don't know how this was translated,
25 but when you read the English version it looks like the Serbian Radical
1 Party is making an announcement maybe for political reasons to inform the
2 people that all those who took part in combat operations in Western
3 Slavonia in the 5th Corps zone of responsibility will be paid on March 26,
4 27, and 28 from 1.00 to 5.00 p.m. in the Belgrade barracks. Then this is
5 a -- might be a political announcement but who is paying, it's the Serbia
6 army -- the Serbian government. So there are two ways to interpret this.
7 How do you interpret this? I'm sure you have drawn conclusion from this
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours I think the answer can -- the answer is
10 given in 65 ter number 988, but I don't know whether it's included in the
11 binder; but it's quoted in the statement section in my report on page 58
12 of part 2.
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe we could call it up in e-court. I don't
14 think we have included this in the binder.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, we won't be wasting time
16 because we're waiting for the Prosecutor. Bubanj Potok barracks is a JNA
17 barracks, and the JNA was on the federal budget, not on the budget of
18 Serbia. This witness ought to know that. He is misleading you
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Rest assured, Mr. Seselj, nobody
21 can be misleading us. As you have seen, we have just spent five hours
22 putting questions. That is the precise reason why, because we want to
23 avoid making mistakes. So we go to the heart of the matter.
24 So this document, 588, if I'm not mistaken, it's a document 988.
25 It's the one which is on the screen. What does this document say
1 according to you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... I think it's
3 quite straightforward. It's a letter signed by Ljubisa Petkovic, chief of
4 the SRS War Staff to the ministry. It's translated ministry for liaison
5 with the Serbs, but it's actually the ministry for the relations with the
6 Serbs outside of Serbia wherein Petkovic asks the ministry to stop making
7 payments to volunteers unless they have evidence of their service, i.e.,
8 that they can present a certificate; and we have discussed some
9 certificates already earlier during my testimony it.
10 Petkovic adds the second sentence this is especially the case with
11 volunteers sent to war-stricken areas where the Serbian Radical Party.
12 So this brings me back to my earlier reply, that is that the War
13 Staff acts as an intermediate. They keep records of the activities of
14 their volunteers when they started with their service in the war zone,
15 when this service ended, where they served, and so on and so on. They
16 issue certificates to that effect. And that information is then used in
17 order to allow the ministry for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia, of
18 the government of the Republic of Serbia, to make these payments.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but this is what you
20 can read into the document, but one can read into it different things.
21 I discover here that there is a ministry in charge of relations
22 with the Serbs outside Serbia. This ministry which was established, I
23 don't know, under what conditions. Maybe this will be established by
24 documents. This ministry undoubtedly has a budget, without doubt, because
25 at the time the -- this operated on the basis of financial resources. So
1 this document can be interpreted as follows: On the 20th of February,
2 1992, the SRS informs this ministry that once it pays out the money that
3 it should check that the people who are going to receive the payments are
4 in effect volunteers who have been sent outside. This is something --
5 this is the way we can look at this document and interpret it.
6 What do you think of this? And this political party which, if
7 they have MPs who are sitting in parliament, have attended the session
8 when the budget was approved. So the idea here is to draw the attention
9 of the ministry so that they do not pay out money to people who do not
10 deserve it. So what do you think of this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... listening to
12 you, I understood that you said that the payments are made by the ministry
13 for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia, or maybe I misunderstood you.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that could be one way of
15 looking at it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... from the
17 document so that just to summarise, it's the ministry who pays the
18 volunteers based on the information provided by the SRS War Staff.
19 Information consisting of certificates or other records that prove the
20 service of the volunteer. And it implies a recognition by the ministry of
21 the SRS War Staff as being a body that is entitled to carry out these
23 MR. MARCUSSEN:
24 Q. Mr. Theunens, maybe it would assist if you would remind us when we
25 discuss the legal framework, I believe you discussed what under the law
1 were the provisions for the payment of volunteers and their status.
2 A. Mm-hmm.
3 Q. Could you recapsulate that for us just briefly, please?
4 A. Yes, Your Honours. As we discussed initially, and it's also on
5 page 79, page 1 of the report, volunteers were considered equal to
6 conscripts, which means that they have the same benefits, they ever the
7 same duties, but they have the same benefits as conscripts; and in
8 addition to that, on page 79, I discuss a document 65 ter number 7150,
9 which is a reply by the Serbian government to a question posed by a deputy
10 in the Serbian parliament on the measures the government of the Republic
11 of Serbia is intended to take to preserve the welfare of JNA reservists
12 and volunteers from Serbia who are deployed at the front. This response
13 dates from the 5th of December, 1991. And in response an overview of the
14 financial measures is provided. There's talk of personal and family
15 disability allowances, tax reductions for private entrepreneurs,; but that
16 is under consideration. Reduction or exemption of electricity bills.
17 So there is an organised effort on the side of the government of
18 the Republic of Serbia to pay Serbian volunteers who are participating in
19 the conflict in Croatia.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps we can now move on
21 to the second binder.
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm glad that we managed to move to another binder
23 today, Your Honours.
24 The first document in the next binder is a similar kind of
25 document. It is a certificate issued --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I was just going show this one document, which is
3 also relevant the same issue, and then I was going to ask for the
4 admission of the documents, indeed, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Theunens, this certificate, have you also referred to this in
6 your report?
7 A. Indeed, Your Honours.
8 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, I've simply included this
9 document so that you have this -- a number of these documents for you
10 to -- to review later on. I don't really wanted to go into detail about
11 this document. It's a certificate issued by the War Staff to a person, to
12 family members of a killed volunteer.
13 THE WITNESS: If you allow me, here the certificate does not
14 indicate the origin of the sum.
15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, Your Honours, I will request the admission
16 under seal then of 1020, 639, 738, and as we also discussed 988 and
17 reviewed that in e-court, I would also request the admission of that
18 document, Your Honour.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 1020 will be
20 Exhibit --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the
22 admission of this document, documents under seal. I demand that these
23 documents be public. There is no reason for them to be confidential.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have told us that, and we
25 have told you that we would rule on this question at the end. So don't
1 say the same thing all over again. You want it to be public, and we have
2 told you that we would rule on that. Registrar, you have the floor.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 1020 will be Exhibit
4 number P235; 65 ter number 639 will be P236; 65 ter number 738 will be
5 Exhibit number 237; and 65 ter number 988 will be Exhibit number P238, all
6 under seal provisionally.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we have five
8 hours [as interpreted] before we finish. We can't extend our time for the
9 sake of the interpreters. You've only got five minutes left.
10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, it would be over optimistic to hope
11 that we can get through the entire subject I'm now going to go through,
12 but I think we should start.
13 Your Honours, what I wanted to discuss next is the requests for
14 assistance sent to the SRS, and so we're now in the second binder and the
15 first document I was going to ask the witness about is 65 ter number 737.
16 This is --
17 Q. Well, first of all, have you referred to this document in your
19 A. Indeed, Your Honours.
20 Q. And for what -- what does this show about the manner in which
21 volunteers were sent out?
22 A. Your Honours, this document has been discussed in the context of a
23 request by units of the local Serb TO in Western Slavonia where they
24 request the SRS War Staff to provide manpower. Now, this request is also
25 addressed to the Serbian ministry for Serbs outside of Serbia.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, as these documents are
2 discussed in the report, I was going to go through them quite quickly.
3 The next document is 790, and again this is a request for assistance.
4 Q. Mr. Theunens, is this also a document you referred to in your
5 report, and what region does relate to?
6 A. Indeed, Your Honours. I've referred to this in my report. It --
7 first of all, it discusses the situation, military or operational
8 situation in the area of Okucani and Western Slavonia on the 11th and 12th
9 of December. It also talks about enemy activity. And then at the end
10 there is a reference to a ministry to provide -- or to fulfil a request
11 for and then the text is illegible, certain resources that was certainty
12 several days before.
13 Q. And you -- you said a ministry. Am I correct the document says we
14 expect your speedy and urgent assistance in troops, and we ask the
15 Ministry of Defence in Serbia to approve clothe, footwear, weapons,
16 ammunition and then --
17 A. Yes, indeed, I had overseen that sentence. So the reference to
18 ministry is actually explained two lines above. The Ministry of Defence
19 of the Republic of Serbia is mentioned.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, the next document 1174.
21 Q. Mr. Theunens, is this another example you use in your reports to
22 illustrate requests from local TOs to the War Staff for the provision of
23 men and -- and -- and weapons? These two things are mentioned, I think.
24 A. Indeed your -- Your Honours this addresses then the situation
25 Odzak and Derventa, which is in northern Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN: And again, Your Honours, rushing a bit through
2 these documents, they're discussing -- I'm sorry.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's very good. Just one
4 small question that comes to mind.
5 This request, which is intended to for the defence of this
6 village, this request is addressed to the Serbian Radical Party. Is this
7 request addressed to the Serbian Radical Party, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: Indeed, Your Honours, because it's -- it's mentioned
9 in the --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.
11 THE WITNESS: The top left of the document, I mean, the
12 addressees under the --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you checked
14 whether these Crisis Staffs in this locality did not also send this type
15 of request to other parties? Did they not do this and to send their
16 request to all and other political parties and not --
17 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Serbian Radical Party.
19 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... carried out
20 research to find out also whether actually volunteers were sent, so
21 whether this request was fulfilled, but I have not come across such
22 documents. They may have exist but we don't have them. But at least it
23 shows that the members of the Crisis Staff believe that the SRS War Staff
24 is in a position to assist them.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So maybe it would be
1 better to ask for the tendering of documents now and resume tomorrow.
2 It's as you like, Mr. Marcussen. You can ask for the exhibit numbers
3 right now or you may have forgotten in the meantime.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Nope, you are right, Your Honour, I might have
5 forgotten tomorrow so it is probably a prudent thing to ask for the
6 admission of the documents we have just discussed with the witness; so
7 again I ask under seal, and I think we have noted the accused's objection
8 on this but request under seal the admission of 65 ter numbers 733, 790,
9 and 1174. Oh --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber --
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Excuse me. It should have been -- it should not
12 have been 733, it should have been 737.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Mr. Seselj has raised a general objection. This has been recorded
15 on the transcript. Registrar, can we have some numbers, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 737 will be Exhibit
17 number P239; 65 ter number 790 will be Exhibit number 240; and 65 ter
18 number 1174 will be Exhibit number P241, all provisionally under seal.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
20 As you know, we shall begin tomorrow at 9.00. It is usually at
21 8.30 that we start but anyway, since nobody else is in the courtroom, we
22 can start tomorrow at 9.00. I hope that the examination-in-chief will be
23 concluded tomorrow. We shall try to make sure that we hold our tongues
24 and don't ask too many questions, because I think you have approximately
25 two hours left, and then we might be able to begin with the
1 cross-examination. The cross-examination will also take place during the
2 rest of the week. So anyway, we shall meet again tomorrow at 9.00.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.34 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day
5 of February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.