Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4881

1 Tuesday, 18 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.46 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number

8 IT-03-67-T --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

11 number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Good afternoon to the Prosecution, to Mr. Seselj, and to everyone

14 assisting us in this case. We're going to have a witness now. I know

15 that the Prosecution asked for private session before we start, but

16 before we do so, I have a number of administrative questions I need to

17 put to Mr. Mundis.

18 Based on the schedule we had, last week we said that since a

19 witness that was scheduled to testify tomorrow and Thursday is not going

20 to testify, we envisioned showing a number of videos. That's why I asked

21 you to prepare a list of possible videos, to send the list to Mr. Seselj

22 for him to tell us whether he agrees or not, but the Chamber received

23 absolutely no response with regard to this issue, so I don't know where

24 we stand.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to

Page 4882

1 everyone in and around the courtroom.

2 Your Honours, the list of videos to be shown was only finalised

3 earlier this afternoon, and I believe it's now been circulated. Perhaps

4 it's been sent to the legal officer. And that document is also, as I

5 speak, being translated into Serbian for the benefit of Dr. Seselj. It

6 did take us a little bit longer to narrow down the list and put it in a

7 format that made most sense from a logical point of view, but I apologise

8 for the late disclosure of that but it has now been done. My case

9 manager has earlier this afternoon circulated that list, and as I say

10 it's being urgently translated into Serbian for the benefit of

11 Dr. Seselj.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Will Mr. Seselj be

13 able to receive the translation during the afternoon?

14 MR. MUNDIS: It is my understanding, Mr. President, Your Honours,

15 that it is, as I indicated, being urgently translated, and I believe the

16 internal deadline was 6.00 p.m. today. So assuming that we get that via

17 e-mail here in the courtroom it will be immediately printed out and

18 provided to Dr. Seselj prior to the commencement -- or prior to the

19 adjournment for today's session.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Very well.

21 Second question: There was a witness who was supposed to testify

22 on Wednesday and on Thursday. I'm not going to say his name. I don't

23 know if any protective measures had been envisioned for him. But why,

24 why is this witness not coming, because he was supposed to be testifying.

25 Why he isn't he coming?

Page 4883

1 MR. MUNDIS: I need, Mr. President, to just pull up the schedule

2 that had been circulated that has the information concerning that

3 witness. Do you recall which -- the date on the schedule that you're

4 referring to?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the schedule this -- the

6 witness was supposed to come and testify tomorrow and Thursday. VS-45.

7 That's Witness VS-45.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Let me -- perhaps while my colleague is addressing

9 the Chamber if there's any other matters I can make -- provide you with

10 the specific information concerning that witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last issue I want to deal

12 with. Next week we are supposed to have the expert witness

13 Mr. Strinovic, a forensic expert, someone who conducted post-mortem

14 examinations and so on and so forth. But we realised, I realised, that

15 the Chamber has not received any expert reports. We have not received

16 this expert's report. The only thing I know is that this expert witness

17 has already testified in two cases, and it is my understanding that you

18 want to tender into evidence as an expert report a report that this

19 expert had drafted for a previous case plus the transcript of his

20 testimony in the second case.

21 Can you shed some light on this, please?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Well, thank you for the opportunity. I know that a

23 large amount of information was conveyed to the Chamber's legal officer

24 and Dr. Seselj, I believe, last week concerning that witness. Due to

25 primarily the witness's schedule, he will not be appearing next week as

Page 4884

1 we had previously indicated or hoped that he would be able to do. So at

2 this point, Your Honours, we're still trying to finalise the schedule for

3 next week, but I will indicate that Professor Strinovic will not be

4 testifying next week.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. He will not testify next

6 week. Who will be testifying in his place? Have you scheduled other

7 witnesses for next week?

8 MR. MUNDIS: I have at this point in time just come from a

9 meeting, excuse me, with VWS and it's my understanding that they have

10 been in a position to schedule Witness VS-33 for Thursday, the 27th, who

11 would likely carry over into the first part of Tuesday, the 1st of April.

12 We are unable at this point to identify any witnesses for the 25th and

13 26th of March. I am working on that as we speak and hopefully by the end

14 of today, if not the beginning of tomorrow, we should be in a position to

15 have further information concerning the 25th and 26th.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. With respect to

17 Professor Strinovic, when do you envision him testifying? At what point?

18 MR. MUNDIS: I would anticipate at this point, Your Honours, that

19 his testimony would be somewhere in the region or vicinity of the week of

20 the 22nd of April.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

22 MR. MUNDIS: And I am in a position to provide some information

23 concerning Witness 45. I would ask -- are we -- are we still in private

24 session? I need to go into private session.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But before we do

Page 4885

1 so, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Seselj, because he asked to take

2 the floor. I suppose he wants to address the issue of witnesses.

3 Mr. Seselj.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Judges, there is a

6 far greater problem here than would appear at first sight and that is to

7 do with the expert Strinovic. His expert report doesn't exist at all. I

8 haven't received it.

9 Now, on several occasions I received a document from the

10 Prosecution under the title of "The Prosecution discloses the expert

11 report of Davor Strinovic," or something like that, that title was used.

12 And then what received was a supplementary document of post-mortems,

13 pathological findings, forensic reports, but no expert report as such. I

14 never received that.

15 Now, over the weekend, as the next witness that is coming up, I

16 haven't got many questions to ask him, so I dealt with the other matter

17 throughout the weekend and looked through all the documents, and there is

18 no expert report by Davor Strinovic, and it would appear that there was

19 no expert report in other trials other, but this heap of papers, what

20 they did in these other trials, they put forward this heap of papers, and

21 the counsel didn't pay attention and that passed by as an expert report.

22 It cannot be an expert report. There was a questionnaire that the

23 Prosecution provided him with for him to state his views on certain

24 issues, and that amounts to some 10 pages, but that is not an expert

25 report either.

Page 4886

1 So what I insist upon is this: That the Prosecution disclose

2 Davor Strinovic's expert report first and then to bring him in here to

3 court as an expert, because I don't know what I can challenge if I don't

4 have the report. If you remember, your colleagues still weren't in this

5 Trial Chamber, I sent you a submission in writing about Davor Strinovic's

6 expert report that was intimated and the first point was that in fact I

7 haven't been provided with the report itself, and nothing's changed since

8 that time. And's not the only problem, we have problems with the next

9 three experts as well.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. We'll deal

11 with this issue first.

12 Mr. Mundis, Mr. Seselj is quite right. I've discovered that

13 there is indeed a document, a ten-page document, but it can't be seen as

14 an expert report. And the question is the following: Will we receive an

15 expert report? Will the expert report be disclosed in due course to

16 Mr. Seselj since you anticipate to call this witness around the 22nd of

17 April? That's the question here.

18 MR. MUNDIS: The document, I believe, is approximately 13 or 14

19 pages long. It was a report that was admitted into evidence in the

20 Milosevic case. That, in fact, is the report of the witness Strinovic.

21 In accordance with information that was provided on the 14th of

22 March, we have asked in light of the fact that that earlier report was

23 produced in 2003 that the Witness Strinovic update that to reflect any

24 new or additional information concerning exhumations that have occurred

25 in the intervening few years. We expect or are hopeful that he will in

Page 4887

1 fact update that report and it will be available in the Serbian and

2 English languages as soon as he has done so. That is another reason why

3 this witness has been postponed so that he can be given an opportunity to

4 revise the earlier report.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, what happened in

6 the Milosevic case comes under the jurisdiction of that Trial Chamber.

7 But as far as we are concerned we have this 14-page report, I have it in

8 front of me, and -- yes, let me have a look at it. On the first page we

9 have a summary, a summary related to his CV and his employment. And then

10 we have three pages related to the role of forensic pathologists, the way

11 they are used, also related to medical problems in terms of body

12 identification. All the rest is tables. I can show it to you. Just

13 tables. In other words, the expert report comes down to three pages,

14 three pages.

15 Do you intend to give us exactly the same thing, or will the

16 expert conduct and produce a professional report as can be expected?

17 Because that's the report we have. I'm showing it to you right now.

18 MR. MUNDIS: That -- that, Mr. President, is in fact the report I

19 was just referring to. That is the report that Professor Strinovic has

20 produced and which was -- has been admitted into other proceedings before

21 this Tribunal.

22 As I've indicated, he has been asked to revise that report, and

23 we will take the comments of the Trial Chamber on board in terms of the

24 revisions that we will be directing this expert to make.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Seselj.

Page 4888

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due respect

2 to the memory of the late Slobodan Milosevic, I nonetheless have to say

3 that Mr. Milosevic, when he -- during the Prosecution case, had very

4 scant knowledge of Anglo Saxon law, that a whole Simplon express train

5 could be passed into evidence and there was -- without him noticing, and

6 there was an abuse there by the Prosecution which was tolerated by the

7 Trial Chamber. That is the expert report was admitted into evidence

8 without it ever having existed. There never was an expert report.

9 Now, with respect to this non-existent expert report by Davor

10 Strinovic, I received post-mortem findings for each corpse, several

11 hundred colour photographs of corpses, and I threw away those colour

12 photographs because I'm interested in that. I'm not going to challenge

13 whether there were corpses or not. But as I say there is no expert

14 report per se, so you can't revise something that doesn't exist in the

15 first place and you can't supplement something. Davor Strinovic can't

16 supplement something that was passed through as an expert report in the

17 Milosevic trial. Either Davor Strinovic has to write a real expert

18 report or he can't appear here in the capacity of an expert witness.

19 That's the crux of the matter. Because then you can't have an expert

20 without an expert report. We had Oberschall with his 120 page exert

21 report; we have Yves Tomic with over 100 pages; we had Theunens, his

22 expert report numbered over 400 pages; and now we come to Davor Strinovic

23 without any expert report at all.

24 So I'm preparing myself to cross-examine him, but for that

25 cross-examination to take place he has to write an expert report to begin

Page 4889

1 with. He has to do that or somebody else. It doesn't matter who. But

2 without an expert report which will be disclosed to me on time, he

3 cannot -- the person cannot appear in court.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Furthermore, Mr. Mundis, my

5 fellow Judge quite rightly tells me that according to the rules, this

6 report should be disclosed 30 days in advance. Here again we are faced

7 with a problem. The report should be disclosed 30 days before the expert

8 witness comes to testify for the accused to be able to make any relevant


10 Whilst Mr. Seselj was talking, I was having a look at these

11 tables, and I noticed the following: Three locations are mentioned here,

12 Vukovar, Vocin, and Ovcara. These tables contain statistics, figures for

13 shootings, for example, 212 probable; explosions, 115, but we have

14 nothing else.

15 In his report the expert should examine at length what happened

16 in Vukovar, explain what happened when the exhumations took place. He

17 should explain what conclusions the expert's arrived. He should tell us

18 how many people died of gunshot wounds, but difference need to be made

19 between shooting at close range and shooting that occurred during

20 fightings, and some people also died of natural causes. Apparently 17

21 people died of natural causes.

22 That's the type of problem we're faced with, Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: I understand these issues, Mr. President. As I've

24 indicated, we will take the comments of the Trial Chamber on board in

25 terms of requests to the expert to revise the report, and I guarantee you

Page 4890

1 that 30 days -- if we need the full 30 days or Dr. Seselj needs the full

2 30 days that the rules entitle him to, then the witness will be scheduled

3 well after the 30-day disclosure of the revised report.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 Mr. Seselj, I believe that you wanted to raise other matters.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Throughout the

7 weekend I spent my time looking at pathologists and specialists in

8 forensic medicine, and a similar problem exists with the other three

9 experts. Ivan Grujic, Osman Kadic, around Zoran Stankovic. They are

10 pathologists, specialists in forensic medicine, which the -- whom the

11 Prosecution intends to call as expert witnesses.

12 Now, none of them have provided an expert report, but as opposed

13 to the situation with Davor Strinovic where there's nothing, these other

14 three men have statements which they gave to the Prosecution as if they

15 were ordinary witnesses, ordinary witness statements. Osman Kadic's is

16 two or three pages long where he describes how he conducted the

17 exhumation and concludes that he doesn't know who killed those people,

18 which is quite all right as far as he's concerned. And Stankovic and

19 Grujic, they were interviewed by the Prosecution. Now, if they're going

20 to appear here in court as experts, they, too, have to submit an expert

21 report and not have the Prosecution hear them as ordinary witnesses and

22 then we just are provided with their statements. Ordinary statements are

23 not expert reports.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, with respect to

25 Grujic, Kadic, Stankovic, the other experts, apparently we do not have an

Page 4891

1 expert report for them. We only have written statements.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I would need to check that before

3 confirming what Dr. Seselj says. I do note, however, that Rule 94

4 business (A) makes reference to the full statement and/or report of any

5 expert witness. So I'm not certain standing here now that a report is

6 required. The rule talks about statement and/or report.

7 I will leave that alone for the moment. We can return to the

8 issue of expert witnesses perhaps at a later point this week after we've

9 had a chance to verify exactly what the material is. I simply can't

10 respond to each and every issue raised by Dr. Seselj at any one given

11 point in time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, with respect to

13 these four people, Strinovic, Grujic, Kadic, and Stankovic, who have

14 apparently conducted post-mortem examinations on people who had been

15 killed without having been able to determine in all cases how these

16 people had died, I understand that the Prosecution wants to call these

17 four witnesses in order to establish how these people died, after an

18 explosion, gunshot, and so on and so forth.

19 I thought that you had said that you do not challenge that people

20 have died. What you challenge, on the other hand, is your responsibility

21 in these killings.

22 Well, if you do not challenge the facts, the fact that these

23 people died, is it then useful for you to start attacking these

24 "witnesses"?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, of these four men,

Page 4892

1 four experts, I'm not -- don't intend to attack Dr. Osman Kadic, just one

2 of them. He provided a statement about an exhumation. I think it was in

3 Herzegovina or Ubopak or something like that near that particular

4 locality, I'm not going to have a barrage against him, but the other

5 three have to be prepared for an attack on my part. I'm going to

6 challenge them in the moral and professional sense, and I have a lot of

7 arguments to do that.

8 So if they bring those three men here, they're going to have a

9 whole artillery firing shoot from me. And for Zoran Stankovic, I said

10 several years ago already, I intimated that in the special Defence brief

11 where I presented many things that I know about Zoran Stankovic and his

12 immoral behaviour, his wheeling and dealing, manipulations, and so on and

13 so forth.

14 So of the Serb pathologists they found the worst lot. And so he

15 has to come in here and face the firing squad from me. Had they chosen

16 an honourable man instead of Zoran Stankovic, and he was the former

17 minister of defence, and that former minister of defence is going to come

18 up against a veritable firing squad from me, a barrage of attacks from

19 me.

20 Now, Mr. President, what is the main problem here is that the

21 Prosecution is taking this too extensively. Had certain facts been

22 dovetailed here, I don't challenge that in Ovcara 200 people were killed,

23 and when I cross-examined the witnesses I didn't challenge that. Those

24 victims were prisoners of war. They were killed there. Most of them

25 were executed by firing squad. Some were killed with knives. I don't

Page 4893

1 challenge that there were killings in certain other locations either, but

2 it is up to the Prosecution to present this to the Trial Chamber in the

3 proper way. Why would it inundate the Trial Chamber with enormous

4 amounts of documents referring to each individual autopsy if this could

5 be done in a more rational way?

6 I know that you have to have proof and evidence for the crime

7 base, but it's up to the Prosecution to offer up something which would be

8 rational and relevant in this courtroom and without the need to waste

9 time with cross-examining false witnesses.

10 Now, as far as Ivan Grujic and Davor Strinovic are concerned,

11 they conducted autopsies over Serb victims, too, and I have a lot of

12 professional questions to ask them there. As for Zoran Stankovic that

13 everything he did he did unprofessionally, there too I would have a lot

14 to say.

15 So either the Prosecution is going to bring in some honourable

16 expert witnesses, one would be sufficient to present a report here and

17 then me say that I have no objections to make. I have no reason to

18 challenge the expert witness in the moral sense or the professional

19 sense, or are they going to bring in somebody -- some people who are a

20 challenge to me and throughout the time that I have at my disposal I will

21 be taking up my heavy artillery. So I am in fair of a reasonable

22 solution but not at all costs.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is no other issue to deal

24 with, but I will move into private session for a few minutes.

25 Mr. Mundis will now explain why Witness 45 will not be

Page 4894

1 testifying, and he'll talk about the following witness as well. Private

2 session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4895











11 Pages 4895-4907 redacted. Private session















Page 4908

1 [Open Session]

2 [The witness entered court]


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

6 Very well. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please stand up.

7 Can you please tell me your first name, last name, and date of

8 birth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 5th of January, 1934, Emil

10 Cakalic.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified in this

12 Tribunal or before another court about the events that occurred in your

13 country?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took part in the trial in The

15 Hague.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Do you remember what

17 case it was?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were Slavko Dokmanovic,

19 Slobodan Milosevic. Slavko Dokmanovic.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you ever

21 testified in your own country?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not with respect to these

23 matters.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And before what court was it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croatian court.

Page 4909

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you remember the names of

2 the accused in that case?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember any more.

4 It was a long time ago.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. I'm now going to ask you

6 to read the solemn declaration that's being shown to you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, you may be seated.

10 Sir, let me explain to you how we're going to proceed. You will

11 have to answer questions put to you by the Prosecutor. You have met him

12 already. You met him yesterday as part of the proofing session in

13 advance of this hearing. The Prosecutor may show you a number of

14 documents.

15 After that first stage, Mr. Seselj, who is sitting on your left

16 and who is the accused in this case, will also ask you a number of

17 questions as part of what we call here the cross-examination. He will

18 have as long as the Prosecution to do so. One hour and a half for the

19 Prosecution, an hour and a half for Mr. Seselj.

20 At any time the three Judges sitting before you may ask you

21 questions.

22 Please try to be very accurate in your answers. If you do not

23 understand the question, please ask the one putting that question to you

24 to rephrase it.

25 If you can't remember something very clearly, do not hesitate to

Page 4910

1 say that you can't remember.

2 If at any time you need to rest, if you feel tired, if there's

3 anything wrong with you, just raise your hand and tell us about it and

4 we'll adjourn the hearing.

5 It is customary for us to have a break every hour and a half, but

6 if you do not feel well, if you need for us to stop, notify us

7 immediately. And at any time you may ask a question to the Judges. The

8 Judges will answer any question you may put to them.

9 These are just -- just some information I wanted to give you

10 before you testify, but you've already testified here several times, and

11 you know how we proceed.

12 I'm now going to give the floor to the Prosecutor who will begin

13 the examination-in-chief.

14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, before I start, I didn't have any

15 chance to introduce my colleague, Ms. Divya Prasad who is sitting right

16 to me, to you. It is the first time that she appears here in the

17 courtroom. And we are also assisted by our intern, Kevin Grigsby, who is

18 sitting behind.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber welcomes

20 Ms. Prasad, who is here for the first time, and would also like to greet

21 the intern assisting you.

22 Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

23 Q. Mr. Cakalic, first I want to start with your private and

24 professional background. Could you tell us what is your nationality and

25 what your ethnicity is?

Page 4911

1 A. I'm a Croat. That's my nationality. Born in 1934. Fericanci

2 near Nasice. Those are the essential points.

3 Q. Are you married and do you have children?

4 A. I am married, yes, and I have a daughter.

5 Q. Could you tell us which school you visited after having finished

6 the elementary school?

7 A. After elementary school I went to the secondary medical school

8 first, and having completed secondary medical school I attended a higher

9 medical school which I graduated from in Belgrade.

10 Q. Could you tell us, when did you start working?

11 A. That was a very long time ago. After I completed my secondary

12 school education I started working straight away, and I graduated from

13 the higher medical school while I was working. So I studied and worked

14 at the same time.

15 Q. Could you tell us what was the name of the city where you started

16 working?

17 A. I started working in Zagreb. After Zagreb, when I got married, I

18 went to work in Vukovar. First of all, I was the head of the central

19 medical laboratory for blood transfusion, the department for blood

20 transfusion, and then after that I worked as a sanitary inspector for the

21 Vukovar municipality.

22 Q. You already told us that you graduated later on. Can you

23 remember the years when you graduated?

24 A. That was around 1970. In the 1970s. That's when I graduated. I

25 did well in my exams, and I had the honour of having excellent

Page 4912

1 professors. I was very satisfied with my professors, and they helped me

2 a great deal in my work.

3 Q. Did I understand you correct that you at the same time worked and

4 studied for having your examination to graduate at university?

5 A. Yes. I worked and studied at the same time.

6 Q. I now want to come to the events when the war was starting. Can

7 you remember when the war started in Vukovar?

8 A. It started in a very unfortunate time -- at a very unfortunate

9 time, after the Serbian military forces attacked the Croatian military

10 forces, and they were very poor, poorly equipped with respect to weapons.

11 They practically had no weapons, and they had to seize the weapons from

12 the enemy.

13 Vukovar fell, and I was caught up in that. I was in the Vukovar

14 Hospital. I worked there for a time.

15 Q. Sorry, Mr. Cakalic. I asked you if you remember when the war

16 started. Can you give us the year and the month the war started in

17 Vukovar? Can you give us the year and the month?

18 A. I can't give you an exact date.

19 Q. Do you remember the year?

20 A. I think it was -- I don't know. I can't remember.

21 Q. It's okay. Can you tell us if you have been involved in the

22 defence of Vukovar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us on which side?

25 A. On the Croatian side.

Page 4913

1 Q. What was your task defending Vukovar?

2 A. Well, as the Croatian army had been established or was being

3 established, some other things had to be done as well, not just to form

4 an army. So as a sanitary inspector I issued an order that food be

5 cooked separately for the Croatian defenders, and that they should be

6 supplied with food at the place where they were at their positions.

7 Q. Was this work different from the peace times, or was it more or

8 less the same work which you did before the war started?

9 A. The job I did was similar.

10 Q. Can you tell us where did you live during the war?

11 A. I lived in Vukovar.

12 Q. Did you have to change, because of the war events, your

13 apartment?

14 A. Not at that time yet. We didn't have to change our apartment

15 yet, but after the fighting stepped up my wife and I left our own

16 apartment, and we went to the Vukovar Hospital and stayed there, which is

17 where I worked as well.

18 Q. Are you able to tell us which month that was?

19 A. That was November.

20 Q. Was it dangerous to go from your apartment to the hospital?

21 A. Well, yes, it was. There was shooting. We were being shot at.

22 We were quite near the hospital, some 500 metres away from it, and we had

23 to take a roundabout route to avoid drawing attention to us. We were the

24 last Croats to leave our homes, my wife and I.

25 Q. Did you arrive unhurt to the hospital?

Page 4914

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Have there been any problems to enter the hospital?

3 A. I did not have any problems, but my wife did, but we solved her

4 problem.

5 Q. Can you explain why you didn't have any problems?

6 A. Because I was an employee in the medical centre of Vukovar, in

7 that institution.

8 Q. Were you known to the other staff of the Vukovar Hospital?

9 A. Everybody knew me.

10 Q. Was that the reason that later on your wife could also enter

11 without any problems at the hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you please describe to us how was the situation inside the

14 hospital?

15 A. The hospital was full of wounded, full of sick people. The

16 surgical ward had a lot of work to do, especially Dr. Njavro, who was one

17 of the principal surgeons.

18 Q. How was the hygienic situation in Vukovar -- in the hospital,

19 sorry.

20 A. We did our best to keep the hygiene conditions good. However, it

21 was very difficult to achieve that. There were a lot of people who had

22 been wounded and who had been killed on both sides. And what I can tell

23 you is that the soldiers who were on the opposite side were protected in

24 equal measure just like the Croatian soldiers.

25 Q. Have only been patients and refugees in the hospital?

Page 4915

1 A. No. There were regular patients who were really ill.

2 Q. But only patients and refugees in the hospital?

3 A. There were wounded soldiers there too.

4 Q. Do you remember if later on when you already were in the hospital

5 other people arrived to the hospital?

6 A. The whole courtyard of the Vukovar Hospital was full of people

7 from Vukovar and the surrounding parts.

8 Q. Did soldiers arrive into the hospital or not?

9 A. Yes, they did. They did arrive, Croatian soldiers, until the

10 fall of Vukovar.

11 Q. Did also Serb soldiers arrive to the hospital?

12 A. Yes, they did, after the hospital fell. Was captured, actually.

13 Q. I will come back to another thing which I forgot. Where have you

14 been accommodated, you and your wife, in the hospital?

15 A. By the X-ray department. My colleagues worked in that

16 department, so they took my wife and myself in and many others too.

17 Q. When Vukovar fell you told us that Serbian soldiers entered the

18 hospital. Did you recognise them?

19 A. Well, that was a bit difficult. As soon as the Serb soldiers

20 entered all of us who were there, those of us who were in the hospital,

21 were taken out into a part of the courtyard.

22 Q. May I ask --

23 A. And --

24 Q. Mr. Cakalic, may I ask you does the name Marin Vidic say anything

25 to you?

Page 4916

1 A. Yes, it does.

2 Q. What was his function, and what did happen to him?

3 A. He was in charge of affairs -- he was in charge of protection,

4 anything to do with protection, and to tour the terrain around Vukovar

5 and Borovo. We would do that together. When we went to Borovo, we were

6 shot at. When we were on our way back we were shot at again, but we

7 managed to stay alive.

8 Q. Did something happen to Marin Vidic inside the hospital?

9 A. Yes. He was transferred from the municipality to the hospital.

10 He had his office there. I cooperated with him. We were on good terms

11 for a long time. Two officers turned up, officers of the Yugoslav

12 People's Army, Mr. Sljvancanin and Mr. Radic I think his name was. They

13 arrested him and took him away.

14 Q. From where did you know Major Sljvancanin?

15 A. I saw him on hundreds of photographs, and I knew him. I knew

16 him. I knew his face. He would come frequently to the Vukovar Hospital

17 after it fell, and they would take people off, and I never saw those

18 people again after that.

19 Q. Do you remember the date when Marin Vidic was arrested?

20 A. That was towards the end of November. I can't tell you the exact

21 date.

22 Q. When Marin Vidic was arrested, could you and the others, the

23 other refugees, stay inside the hospital?

24 A. We did stay in the hospital for some time after that.

25 Q. Could you stay there all the time?

Page 4917

1 A. Well, no, we couldn't stay there the whole time, because

2 Dr. Bosanac, the lady doctor, demanded that all persons who were not

3 employees of the medical centre should not perform their jobs any more.

4 Q. Has there been a moment when you and the other refugees were

5 asked to leave the hospital and go outside the hospital?

6 A. Yes. That was requested, too, but it couldn't happen because the

7 entire courtyard was full of people, people who were seeking refuge in

8 the hospital.

9 Q. Could you tell us who asked you to leave the hospital?

10 A. Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

11 Q. Do you remember if you have been asked to go to the courtyard and

12 did you go there?

13 A. Yes, we did go to the courtyard.

14 Q. Can you tell us who asked you to go there?

15 A. Dr. Vesna Bosanac received an order from somebody saying that all

16 people not employed in the medical centre should leave the premises.

17 Q. Do you know who ordered Dr. Bosanac to do this?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Can you tell us how many people were asked to leave the hospital

20 to go to the backyard?

21 A. I can't really say how many exactly, but at least 30 or 40

22 people. Those who were in good health. Those who had been injured, they

23 stayed in the hospital.

24 Q. What did you have to do when you arrived at the backyard of the

25 hospital?

Page 4918

1 A. There were a lot of corpses there of soldiers from both sides,

2 and a selection had to be made and the necessary steps taken so that

3 these dead bodies could be taken care of.

4 Q. And the other refugees who were not dead, what did they have to

5 do at the backyard?

6 A. They had to leave the yard after the enemy army turned up. The

7 hospital had been taken over by them, so the people had to leave the

8 yard, leave the compound. And a large column was formed, a column of

9 people, and they were taken off towards the court and the town and Vuka.

10 Q. What happened to -- sorry. What happened to you and others in

11 the backyard? Have you also been in columns and left the courtyard?

12 A. We left too. We left the courtyard, too, and a selection was

13 undertaken. The Serb soldiers turned up, and they demanded that all

14 those who were not employees of the medical centre should leave.

15 Q. Should leave what?

16 A. I don't understand. What do you mean?

17 Q. Should leave the medical centre or the backyard of the court of

18 the hospital?

19 A. Yes. Both. Both these things. Some people stayed on in the

20 hospital, those who were sick or who were thought to be in a difficult

21 state, a serious state. They stayed on for treatment. The others left.

22 And I have to say that there was a Serb soldier there who had been

23 captured, and he was given better care than the Croatian soldiers were

24 given.

25 Q. Can you describe us the circumstances how you had to leave the

Page 4919

1 backyard of the hospital?

2 A. There was a man called Pero there. He was from somewhere in

3 Bosnia. That's how he introduced himself anyway. And he started

4 swearing at us. He was very uncivilised. He used different swear words,

5 and we hated this. I don't like anybody swearing and invoking my

6 parents' names, especially close family members. We found that

7 insulting.

8 And after a certain amount of time we had to leave and board

9 buses. The buses were checked and we were checked, and this was done by

10 Mr. Sljvancanin. Yes, that's right. It was Mr. Sljvancanin who went

11 through all the buses to see who was in them.

12 Q. Before you entered the buses, how have you been checked?

13 A. Everything we had with us had to be checked and set aside, any

14 bags or anything like that, and we had a lot of unpleasantness,

15 particularly -- well, we were called out and called names and things like

16 that.

17 Q. Were there only soldiers, Serbian soldiers, who called you these

18 names and who ordered you to show -- to show everything you have and give

19 it to them?

20 A. Yes. They asked us to hand over everything we had. They even

21 looted. They knew what would probably happen to us. And after that they

22 drove us off of to the Vukovar barracks, and at the Vukovar barracks we

23 waited for about four to five hours.

24 Q. Mr. Cakalic, sorry to interrupt. We come to this later. You

25 didn't completely answer my question. Have there been only soldiers or

Page 4920

1 also other -- let's call them militaries who were in the backyard of the

2 hospital?

3 A. Well, there was Major Sljvancanin at that time, and there were --

4 there was this other man. They came to see us. His deputy. I can't

5 remember his surname just now.

6 Q. Do you know the expression "volunteers"?

7 A. Yes. They were people who voluntarily went to war.

8 Q. Had volunteers also been at the backyard of the hospital or only

9 soldiers?

10 A. There were also volunteers who cursed and who were in fact more

11 dangerous than the soldiers.

12 Q. What do you mean by "more dangerous"?

13 A. The soldiers probably had some sort of ethics. They were real

14 soldiers. The ones who were not soldiers, they beat people up, although

15 there were soldiers who beat people up also.

16 Q. Do you remember how many buses arrived?

17 A. There were six buses which were full. We filled the buses. When

18 the buses were full, they remained standing there in front of the

19 hospital for another half an hour or an hour. Then they turned round and

20 drove off through the town as far as the Vukovar barracks.

21 Q. Do you remember in which bus you were sitting?

22 A. I think I was in the third one, but I can't remember precisely.

23 I think I was in the third one.

24 Q. Could you select the bus by yourself?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4921

1 Q. Now tell us -- you already told us that they drove you to the

2 barracks. Can you tell us if you have been guarded inside the buses?

3 A. Yes. There were soldiers walking round the buses. There were

4 also persons there who were not soldiers who said, "Give me this Cakalic.

5 Let me kill him. Give me this one. Give me that one," and so on and so

6 forth. People swarmed there. And I don't think this was done properly,

7 because the army that occupied Vukovar should have taken on this

8 obligation.

9 Q. Please explain us, where did this happen, in front of the

10 hospital or in front of the barracks?

11 A. This was in the barracks. At that time, there was a staff which

12 was holding its session in that barracks, and they were deciding on the

13 fate of us who were in the buses.

14 Q. Have you also been threatened and how?

15 A. No. They didn't show themselves to us. They simply made the

16 decision, and those who carried the decision out, they were other people,

17 different people.

18 Q. You told us you had to wait in front of the barracks inside the

19 buses and that people who were outside were threatening or making signs

20 to you; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. Mr. Sljvancanin was even there. He turned up. I saw him,

22 but in the last part. Whether he brought someone there or not, I don't

23 know. I don't know for what reason he arrived there. We never learned

24 that.

25 Q. Has there been a person inside of your bus who has specifically

Page 4922

1 been threatened?

2 A. Yes. They threatened all of us. Some people outside the buses,

3 some in the buses. They said, "Give me this one. Let me kill him. Give

4 me that one. Let me kill him." That's what they said.

5 Q. Do you remember a person who had the nickname Veliki Boljer?

6 A. Yes, I remember him. I remember him. He was killed in -- at

7 Ovcara, that is.

8 Q. Has this person also been in your bus while you were still

9 waiting in front of the barracks?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Has he been threatened also?

12 A. Yes, yes. More than others.

13 Q. Could you please describe us how?

14 A. They said they would kill him, and in the end it happened in the

15 hangar at Ovcara. They killed him by kicking him, beating him with

16 fists, beating him --

17 Q. Mr. Cakalic, sorry to interrupt. We come to this later. We are

18 still in front of the barracks.

19 Do you know a man called Vlado Kosic?

20 A. Yes. We worked together in the municipality of Vukovar.

21 Q. Has he also been there in front of the barracks?

22 A. Yes. He and his wife were in front of the barracks.

23 Q. Did they address you?

24 A. Yes. He passed by the bus I was in, and he said, "Hey, Emil.

25 See what's happened to you." And I said, "Well, I'm not the only one

Page 4923

1 here. There are lots of people who are going through the same thing.

2 But whatever you're doing, it's immoral."

3 Q. Did he say something related to the bus you were sitting in?

4 A. He said, "You're sitting in that bus, but you haven't found

5 yourself a good place." I said to him, "Well, what would be a better

6 place?" And he said, "Well, it's all the same. You'll all end up the

7 same anyway." We were already beginning to gain some idea.

8 Q. Could you tell us how long approximately you were waiting inside

9 the buses in front of the barracks?

10 A. Well, it went on for about two and a half or three hours, but I

11 omitted to say before, I accidentally omitted to say this, another bus

12 was brought in subsequently to the barracks, but it was at some distance

13 from us, some 200 or 300 metres away, so that we couldn't know who was in

14 the bus, where it was from, until somebody said the people in that bus

15 are also for shooting.

16 I apologise for forgetting to say that before.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to get back

18 to Mr. Vlado Kosic, whom you knew and who spoke to you about matters

19 which worried you.

20 Vlado Kosic, was this person a member of the JNA, a member of the

21 Territorial Defence, or did this person belong to another unit?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was wearing a -- an army

23 uniform. I think he had some sort of rank, but I can't recall what rank

24 it was.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was this a JNA uniform, a

Page 4924

1 Territorial Defence uniform, or maybe another one? What do you remember?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that it was a military

3 uniform, the cap, the trousers, and all the rest of it.


5 Q. When the buses left from the barracks, in which direction were

6 they going?

7 A. We set out from the courtyard to the road towards Negoslavci, but

8 we didn't enter Negoslavci. Instead, we were taken to Jakobovac, and

9 next to this place called Jakobovac soldiers were ready who directed us

10 to the hangars.

11 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I want to know, we are still in Vukovar, and you

12 left in the direction of Ovcara, as far as I understood. Please correct

13 me if I am wrong. Did you also pass the Vuka River?

14 A. Yes, we did, yes.

15 Q. Do you remember the bridge you were passing?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar could we please have on the

18 monitor 65 ter number 2521, and it's the sixth picture which has the ERN

19 number 00531235.

20 Q. Mr. Cakalic, do you recognise this picture, and can you describe

21 us on which bridge you were driving?

22 A. Across the bridge over the River Vuka. There's more than one

23 bridge over the River Vuka, but this is the central bridge right in the

24 centre of town.

25 Q. Did you realise something unusual as you were passing the bridge,

Page 4925

1 or did you observe people there?

2 A. There were soldiers there. There were soldiers there and some

3 other persons, and some other persons too. But our bus, the one we were

4 in, didn't stop there. It went on towards the Vukovar barracks.

5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to show to the witness the video

6 clip which has the ERN number 65 ter 6039, and I would like to ask the

7 witness if he recognises this scene.

8 [Videotape played]

9 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] No, it wasn't good.

10 "I got used to better collaboration with JNA than what I'm

11 getting today.

12 "He expected better collaboration with the JNA.

13 "And then today, what is this about? What's the problem.

14 "The Colonel knows all the problems.

15 "The Colonel knows what the problems are.

16 "Well, there aren't any problems. There's the Colonel.

17 "The problem is that I can see soldiers walking in the streets.

18 I see trucks going in, passing by over there."


20 Q. Mr. Witness, did you witness this or not?

21 A. Yes. That's where we were passing over the bridge, on the River

22 Vuka. We saw Mr. Sljvancanin and this other gentleman. I can't remember

23 his last name. They were talking. They were having quite a heated

24 conversation, and Mr. Sljvancanin said to him, "This is not your town.

25 This is my town now, our town," meaning belonging to the occupying army,

Page 4926

1 and they had to remove themselves. These persons, the peacemakers, had

2 to go away.

3 Major Sljvancanin was agitated. I would have been agitated in

4 his place too. He had to take appropriate measures, but I don't know

5 whether this man was from Austria or where he was from, the one who was

6 talking to Mr. Sljvancanin, but there was another gentleman there, too,

7 whom I met in the hospital, Mr. Vance.

8 Q. Mr. Cakalic, from where do you know what they were talking about?

9 You were sitting in a bus.

10 A. I don't know what they were talking about. I saw them talking,

11 but I don't know what they were talking about.

12 Q. But you were telling us some moments ago what they were speaking

13 about. You said, "This is not our town," and, "They have to remove

14 themselves."

15 A. Yes, because that was said so loudly. Mr. Sljvancanin said it in

16 such a loud and clear voice that it could be heard very well.

17 Q. Is it correct that you did not understand everything, but these

18 sentences you could understand?

19 A. Yes. Yes, certainly. I couldn't hear everything they were

20 saying, but I did hear this, yes.

21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: If we can please see again the picture which was

22 first shown on the monitor, 65 ter 2521, and I would like to ask the

23 witness to show us where this happened.

24 Q. Mr. Witness, you see this picture. Could you please show us with

25 this pen where was the location where you observed this.

Page 4927

1 A. What specifically are you referring to, please?

2 Q. Where you saw the scene we have seen on the video clip just a

3 moment ago, where you saw Mr. Sljvancanin.

4 A. He crossed the bridge, and the conversation between him and the

5 others took place in front of a confectioner's shop on the bank of the

6 River Vuka.

7 Q. Are you able to mark this on this photo?

8 A. It was like this. Around here. Perhaps a little bit closer to

9 here. There was a patisserie here, and everything that took place was in

10 front of this Njegic's shop. Njegic was the owner of the patisserie, but

11 it was closed just as everything was closed at the time.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. For me this is enough.

13 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Could I have admitted this picture and the video

14 clip into evidence.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have two exhibit

16 numbers: One for the photograph and one for the video clip.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the annotated photo will be Exhibit

18 number P283, and the video will be exhibit number P284.


20 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I now come to the events --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I would like to

22 ask a question from the witness. We have just seen a video clip in which

23 we see a member of the ICRC talking with the captain or colonel, I can't

24 remember, Sljvancanin. I was listening very carefully to what you were

25 saying. You said that this officer seemed agitated. This is not the

Page 4928

1 feeling I had on looking at the video clip, but were you present? Were

2 you there when this discussion took place?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a conversation between

4 Mr. Sljvancanin and this other person.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

6 continues] ... were present?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't present there. We

8 only saw them and then we crossed the bridge towards the Vukovar

9 barracks.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were not

11 standing next to these two people, but you saw them.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did see them, yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many metres away were you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 35 or 40 metres away, but

15 Mr. Sljvancanin was very loud. You could hear him very well.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. There's something I

17 can't understand, but perhaps we will be able to understand better.

18 On listening to this conversation between these two people, one

19 has the feeling that Mr. Sljvancanin is against or does not want to allow

20 the international community members to go where they please, but straight

21 after that we see a convoy. We see the ICRC vehicle that is following

22 the convoy, so I don't quite understand what's happening. This vehicle

23 has ICRC markings on it. Could you tell us how we are supposed to

24 understand this?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see that convoy either,

Page 4929

1 because we had already crossed the bridge over the Vuka, and we were on

2 our way towards the Vukovar barracks. So I didn't see that convoy.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.


5 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I now want to come to the events in Ovcara. What

6 could -- what happened when you arrived at Ovcara? Could you please

7 describe this to us?

8 A. The first bus came to a halt, and everybody disembarked and went

9 to the hangar in Ovcara. The same happened with all the buses, the

10 second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth. I was in the third bus, and we

11 entered the hangar in front of which was the president of Vukovar

12 municipality also. He was kicking people and punching them. He kicked

13 and punched whoever of the prisoners he could lay hands on. Slavko

14 Dokmanovic. And he said, "Oh, Inspector. Look at our Emil. You're here

15 too." And I said, "Yes, I am. But nobody is here of their own free

16 will. We're all here under pressure of the enemy army, if I may say so."

17 Q. When you left the bus, did you directly go to the hangar?

18 A. First we had to take off all our things, clothes, money,

19 everything else we had. They robbed us.

20 Q. Who is "they," and who ordered you?

21 A. They started doing it of their own accord. These were persons in

22 JNA uniforms, and there were also people who did not have the entire

23 uniform on. Some had only the bottom part of the uniform. Others had

24 only the top part of the uniform on. So I wouldn't say they were real

25 soldiers. I would say they were other lads who had come there to steal.

Page 4930

1 Q. Have you also been searched?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You told us some time ago that you have already been searched in

4 the Vukovar Hospital before leaving. Did the people still have some

5 wallets with them?

6 A. Yes. They searched me when we got to Velepromet. I wasn't

7 searched in the first place where they were doing this but the third one,

8 and one of them said, "Oh, look, there's good money here, good money."

9 Q. Did you lose only your money, or did you lose also something

10 else?

11 A. I lost my money. I was beaten up. They pushed us all --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, at this stage I must

13 put a question to you. I was listening very carefully to you, and I

14 watched the video clip a moment ago.

15 One has the feeling, please tell me if I'm wrong, from the outset

16 the JNA seems to be controlling the situation, and then according to what

17 you say, we see things happening. We see things -- we see people who

18 come and assist the army and other people, and then there are some people

19 who are going to rob you and steal your money.

20 What I'm interested in this, who are these people? Who are these

21 people that latch on to the soldiers who come and mistreat and rob the

22 prisoners? Could you tell us who these people are?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: When we were

24 entering Velepromet these were conscripts. They searched us and

25 everything we had, money and so on, they took and put in their own

Page 4931

1 pockets, and they said about me, "Look at this one. He's got money," and

2 they took money from me.

3 These were conscripts. They didn't beat us. They only robbed

4 us.


6 Q. Has there been an event with your glasses?

7 A. Yes, but that happened later. That happened at Ovcara.

8 Q. Could you please let us know what happened to your glasses?

9 A. One of them took them off and put them on his own nose, saw that

10 they weren't the right size, threw them down onto the ground and stepped

11 on them.

12 Q. Were you still able to see and to observe without glasses?

13 A. I could, but barely. Not very clearly.

14 Q. Before you entered the hangar, what happened? Could you please

15 describe us?

16 A. We got off the buses, the first, second, third, fourth, and

17 fifth, in order, one by one, and then we went into the hangar. Beside

18 the hangar there were people wearing military uniforms and also others

19 who were not in military uniforms.

20 When I entered the hangar, as I was going in Slavko Dokmanovic,

21 who was the president of the municipality of Vukovar, otherwise a friend

22 of mine, we socialised, said, "Look who's here, our inspector. Emil,

23 you're here too. What are you doing here?" And I said, "Well, I'm doing

24 the same as the others." And then we entered the hangar.

25 Had that happened to him, I would have pulled him out of the

Page 4932

1 hangar, and I would have pulled many others out if I was in his position.

2 However, Slavko came to realise that he had done something that was

3 amoral, that he did something that was amoral, and disappeared soon

4 afterwards.

5 Q. Mr. Cakalic, have there been people beaten up before entering the

6 hangar or have they beaten up in the hangar or has nobody been beat up?

7 Can you tell us?

8 A. They were beaten. Those who stepped off the buses, as well as

9 those who went into the hangar as well as those who were inside the

10 hangar already.

11 Q. Where were they beaten before entering the hangar and how did

12 this happen? Please describe this to us?

13 A. As they were stepping off the buses they were beaten straight

14 away. As they were moving towards the hangar, they had to take off parts

15 of their clothing and footwear, and they were beaten there too. As they

16 entered the hangar itself they were beaten there, too, at the entrance.

17 Even inside the hangar. They would beat them up inside as well.

18 Q. Have you also been beaten up before the hangar?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember if also elderly people have been beaten up, and

21 do you remember -- can you give us names?

22 A. Yes. For instance, there was Dr. Bosanac. That was -- well, the

23 lady doctor, Dr. Bosanac, was the wife. So this was the husband. He was

24 positioned beside the door, and they beat him. He was an elderly man. I

25 don't know how old he was, but certainly around 80. And when they

Page 4933

1 brought him there to sit down, they just put him there and had him sit

2 down.

3 Q. Was he the husband of Dr. Bosanac?

4 A. No, the father. Oh, her husband's father. Her father-in-law.

5 Q. When you entered the hangar you still have been beaten -- have

6 you still been beaten?

7 A. Yes. They continued with the beatings, and then some new people

8 appeared. For example, Milan Bulic appeared. I testified against him in

9 Belgrade. And some others, too, whose surnames I did not know. But I

10 knew Milan because he used to work in the kitchen of the Vukovar Hospital

11 at one time, and I would go there to inspect. So that was how I was able

12 to identify him.

13 Q. Did he beat you?

14 A. Yes, he did beat me. He beat me. He hit me with a metal baton

15 or some sort of baton and broke two of my vertebrae, and I have problems

16 with that today. My vertebrae in the neck. And I find it difficult to

17 lie down and sleep because my neck hurts.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're telling us that

19 Milan Bulic beat you up and that you testified against him in Belgrade.

20 That is a very relevant piece of information for us Judges.

21 Did you testify a long time ago?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About two years ago. And they

23 called me about 15 days ago too. Well, not 15 days. It was probably a

24 month ago. But I wasn't able to respond to the invitation because I

25 didn't like certain matters.

Page 4934

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You testified two years ago in

2 Belgrade against Milan Bulic. To your knowledge, was this man Bulic

3 sentenced or convicted by the Tribunal?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was. The court convicted

5 him, but we received some information to the effect that he was actually

6 walking around Belgrade and that he wasn't actually in prison. Now,

7 whether he is or is not, I don't know that, but that was the rumour going

8 round.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you remember

10 what was the length of this sentence?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think approximately 15 years. I

12 can't tell you exactly what the sentence was.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was sentenced to 15

14 years, but now he's walking around in Belgrade. Things might get clearer

15 later on about this, but apart from this, this Mr. Milan Bulic, was he a

16 member of the JNA, of the Territorial Defence? Was he a member of

17 another unit? Was he a soldier? Who was he?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He belonged to some other units,

19 but he wore the Chetnik cap, and he came to the hangar twice. The first

20 time was when I was inside that same hangar, and he same the second time

21 when I'd already been saved and when I already left the hangar. But he

22 wore this sort of cockade, a big one like this. That's what I saw him

23 wearing. And he boasted about it. I'm sorry that he behaved in that

24 way.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that he had a

Page 4935

1 cap, a Chetnik cap. What is it? What is a Chetnik first?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's a unit, a formation,

3 people associated in one particular formation, and these people did many

4 evil things to many people.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And according to you, you --

6 you could tell them apart because of their cap, because of the cap they

7 were wearing.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, by their caps.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, yes, please proceed,

10 Mr. Mussemeyer.


12 Q. Mr. Cakalic, could you tell us if the prisoners inside the

13 hangars were beaten with objects or only with fists and feet?

14 A. Metal batons, wooden batons, with their hands and legs. Whatever

15 came to hand that's what they used to beat us.

16 Q. Could you tell us what happened to Damjan Samardzic?

17 A. Yes. He was a man who was older than me. He was about ten years

18 older than me. And he was brought to the hangar. They threw him on the

19 floor of the hangar. Bulic was there too along with some others whose

20 names I don't know. And they beat him for a very long time until he

21 succumbed and died.

22 When those soldiers moved away from him I jumped up. I went up

23 to this man Damjan. I took his pulse to see if he gave off any signs of

24 life, because I would have been able to save him by resuscitation,

25 because I was a health worker. However, he was already dead.

Page 4936

1 Q. Do you know if --

2 A. Well, actually, he was killed. He was killed.

3 Q. Do you know if he was the only one who was killed, or did you

4 observe another killing?

5 A. Yes. They killed some others, too, but I don't know their first

6 or last names. Obviously these were people I didn't know.

7 Q. Could you please describe us how you were able to leave the

8 hangar.

9 A. A soldier -- let me just try and remember his surname.

10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: May I assist the witness?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please help me out here.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.


14 Q. Does the name "Cevo" say anything to you?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Stevan Zoric. Stevan Zoric. He wore Chetnik

16 clothing and entered the hangar. He saw me and said, "Come on, Emil,

17 come over here," because we knew one another. So I went outside, but I

18 said, "I don't want to because you're going to kill me." And he said,

19 "No, I'm going to save you." And he did save me. He showed me where to

20 stand, and --

21 Q. Were you in a position to observe what happened inside the hangar

22 when you were pulled out?

23 A. Through a door that was slightly ajar. There were a lot of

24 soldiers and Chetniks there already, and they did a lot of beating. I

25 don't know how many young men were killed, but a great deal, many.

Page 4937

1 Q. So you could observe this beating from outside the hangar looking

2 inside; is that correct?

3 A. From time to time the door would open and close, so you could

4 look into the hangar. And the door had slits in it, too, so you could

5 see through the door.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you told us that you

7 witnessed the killing of Samardzic since he was killed under your very

8 eyes. You were an eyewitness to a -- the beatings of other people, and

9 you yourself were beaten up. We know this. You told us about this. But

10 what's relevant for us here is to find out who did this, who are the

11 perpetrators, and you told us that a Chetnik, someone that you knew,

12 Stevan Zoric, saved you. He pulled you out of this hangar.

13 At this stage of your testimony, any reasonable Judge will ask

14 the following question: Who was in charge of the operations against the

15 detainees in the hangar? Who were these people? Can you tell us some

16 more about it? Can you tell us who inside the hangar was doing this?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you their names

18 because there were a lot of people that we didn't know there, but the

19 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army then withdrew. They didn't do

20 those things. It wasn't them. It was --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're telling us

22 that the JNA soldiers had withdrawn. In other words, people you do not

23 know were there, people who probably came from somewhere else, and you're

24 telling us that these people were Chetniks.

25 What information can you give us about these Chetniks? Where did

Page 4938

1 they come from? How were they dressed? How did they speak? Did they

2 have a commander? What can you tell us about them?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came in an organised way.

4 Now, where they came from I don't know. However, I know that they

5 entered the hangar and beat people. That's the truth of it. However,

6 you must understand that the situation was a very difficult one, because

7 everybody looked out for himself so that they would be safe.

8 Those who remained, they were beaten severely. Now, I didn't see

9 this, but allegedly there were others who succumbed and who died as a

10 result.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the interests of justice,

12 I'm going to quote part of the written statement you made in 1995. The

13 Prosecutor is not asking you this question, but I have to ask you that

14 question because of the relevance of these Chetniks.

15 In your written statement, you said that there were Chetniks who

16 were from Montenegro and that they wore traditional caps and that you

17 recognised them because of a dialect they spoke.

18 Were the Chetniks who were inside the hangar, were they the same

19 Chetniks who may have come from Montenegro?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

21 this. I have to go back a little to Velepromet. In -- they appeared in

22 Velepromet for the first time, and they swore at us all kinds of swear

23 words which I wouldn't like to repeat. They would say, "We'll do you

24 in." And they came to Ovcara too.

25 Now, I wasn't there any more, because several of us who were

Page 4939

1 saved -- it was dusk already, and we were taken off to a school, a

2 building that used to be a school on the agricultural farm, and it was by

3 this school that we waited. We waited for the soldiers to come by and

4 take us away from Ovcara.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My question relates to the

6 Chetniks who were inside the hangar, those who killed Samardzic, those

7 who beat you up, those who beat up other people. Did you hear them

8 speak? Did you -- you probably heard them say something. You told us

9 that they were not locals.

10 According to you, where did these people come from, if you can

11 tell us. If you can't, obviously, tell us you can't.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they were from.

13 Probably they had come from somewhere in Serbia judging by their dialect.

14 Well, we didn't focus our attention on them. We were focusing on the

15 people who were doing the beating, although there were people doing the

16 beating on one side and on the other side and so on. But in my opinion,

17 it was an organised way of having everybody beaten.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but organised by whom?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably those who did the

20 beating.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you have no idea who

22 organised them?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't, no.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But why did this Chetnik you

25 knew, this Zoric, why did he come and save your life, for what reason?

Page 4940

1 What did he tell you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he said, "Emil, come out of

3 there. I'm going to save you. You did me a good turn once, and I'll

4 return the favour now."

5 Now, what happened was this. He suddenly disappeared somewhere,

6 and I assumed that I would have to go back to the hangar. However, three

7 officers turned up, JNA officers, who took over. They took matters into

8 their own hands, and now law and order of sorts was restored. They were

9 short men, short build. I don't know what their names were, but we were

10 saved. There were six Croats and one Serb. We were saved.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're telling us there were

12 six Croats and one Serb. Was there also a Serb who was detained together

13 with you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. He was captured

15 and beaten.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But why? How come he was

17 captured by Serbs, him being a Serb?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there you are. He happened

19 to be in the column most probably, and he was spared and saved together

20 with us when we left Ovcara. The -- or his mother came, or I don't

21 remember who it was, and then he went home.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question before I give

23 the floor to the Prosecution. Was Mr. Zoric dressed like the others,

24 like the others who were in the hangar, or was he dressed differently?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was dressed -- well, he had an

Page 4941

1 army uniform on his upper half, and what he -- his trousers were like, I

2 can't remember whether he had a complete set of a uniform or not, but the

3 upper part was certainly a uniform, and he had a cap on his head.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did he wear a Chetnik cap?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but a small one, a little one

6 with a sign.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What sign was this?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The usual kind of Chetnik insignia.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about those who were

10 inside the hangar who were beating up detainees? Did they wear the same

11 cap with the same insignia?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not all of them did. Some did,

13 but most of them did not.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break

15 because it's already 20 to 6.00. We'll have a 20-minute break. I

16 believe that the Prosecution has 20 to 25 minutes left. The registrar

17 will tell us about it. After the break we'll continue and complete the

18 examination-in-chief. We may be able to begin the cross-examination, I'm

19 not sure, but for the time being we'll have a 20-minute break.

20 Since time is of the essence, Mr. Seselj, let me advise you that

21 we asked the CLSS and that they told us that this -- the translation of

22 the Mrksic judgement, a 500-page document, will be ready at the end of

23 April. You'll receive it at the end of April.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, then I just insist

25 that the witnesses that I mentioned plans to bring them in afterwards,

Page 4942

1 that the Prosecution should plan to bring them in afterwards. I'm not --

2 it's not important for the witnesses who are victims but for the Serb

3 side, to be more precise.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you'll need to

5 consider this matter. The witness -- or the accused will receive the

6 judgement in the Vukovar case at the end of April. He mentioned a number

7 of witnesses he'll have to cross-examine, but he wants to cross-examine

8 once he's received the trial judgement. Can you take that into account?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'll take that into account along

10 with all of the other factors that are taken into account that go with

11 respect to scheduling, which is availability of witnesses, whether

12 they're willing to come, whether they have to be subpoenaed to come.

13 There's a huge number of factors that goes into scheduling of witnesses.

14 I will certainly take those comments into account along with all of the

15 other factors, but I cannot stand here and give any guarantees that those

16 witnesses will be scheduled in the order Dr. Seselj wants them to come.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We are going to break

18 for 20 minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, the registrar

22 has told me that you have 25 minutes left.

23 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I'm in a position to tell you what

24 happened to Mr. Bulic. We discussed about him, and you were surprised

25 that he is still free. I got the information from a colleague that he

Page 4943

1 has been convicted to eight years, but the Supreme Court in Serbia

2 reduced his punishment to two years. This is the explanation why he is

3 free at the moment.

4 Could I ask the registrar to show us on the monitor 65 ter number

5 2848.

6 Q. Mr. Cakalic, do you recognise this picture?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You see a marking there in red on the picture. Does that -- can

9 you tell us who did this marking?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. When did you do this?

12 A. When? I can't remember now.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I'm sorry, but I have to object

14 against the presentation of marked exhibits before the Court.

15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I am aware of -- sorry. I'm --

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I would kindly ask you to alter your

17 practice.

18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I considered this, but with -- for circumstances

19 I described to you earlier, I decided this way. If you don't like this,

20 I can also show him the original picture without marking. This would be

21 65 ter number 2521, and it's picture number 22.

22 I will not repeat this, but --

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


25 Q. Mr. Cakalic, can you tell us what this marking is about?

Page 4944

1 A. This marking indicates a building.

2 Q. What building is this? Now we have a picture without marking and

3 it's the same picture. Could you please tell us what can we see on this

4 picture?

5 A. You can see two houses there. You can see three other buildings.

6 There's a house in the middle here.

7 Q. Mr. Cakalic, where are these buildings? Do you know this

8 location?

9 A. Well, this should be Ovcara.

10 Q. Can you show us the hangar where the prisoners were held?

11 A. This one here.

12 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, this is the reason why I was

13 showing the other picture.

14 Q. Are you sure, Mr. Cakalic?

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: And this is exactly the reason why I don't think

16 it's appropriate to bring pre-marked exhibits.


18 Q. Mr. Cakalic, are you sure that this is the hangar where the

19 prisoners were held?

20 A. So much time has already elapsed. If I were to go there now, I

21 don't think I could recognise that hangar. It's changed so much.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cakalic.

23 A. Please forgive me, but ...

24 Q. Another question: While you were waiting outside, you told us

25 that other people, and you said about six people, were let outside the

Page 4945

1 hangar waiting with you. Is this correct?

2 A. Yes, it is. That's correct.

3 Q. Did you also see other people who were first let out and later on

4 had to turn back into the hangar?

5 A. That probably happened after I had left Ovcara.

6 Q. You have no recollection if other people were let out and later

7 on had to return into the hangar?

8 A. I had already left Ovcara by then.

9 Q. Could you tell us and describe us how you were leaving Ovcara,

10 and in which direction were you going then?

11 A. Eight of us or seven of us were pulled out of the hangar. We

12 were taken to a building, an old school of the Vupik agricultural estate,

13 and there we waited. A van arrived to pick us up. We got in and they

14 took us to Velepromet.

15 In Velepromet they recognised me, Berghofer and some others, so

16 that -- yes. They recognised the seven or eight of us who had come back,

17 but now we went back from Velepromet to a factory where they made various

18 items of women's clothing. We were kept there for three or four days.

19 People we knew and people we didn't know arrived. The room was full of

20 sewing machines, and we kind of hid there.

21 Various people arrived. They came and went, and then a little

22 girl came. She was the daughter of a colleague of mine who was also an

23 inspector and who had gone off somewhere of his own free will. He had

24 left Vukovar. He'd gone to some foreign country.

25 She looked at me. I thought she would be ashamed of herself.

Page 4946

1 She slapped Berghofer. She spat on someone, but she was underage and so

2 she was not punished.

3 Q. Was there an event with a knife, and could you describe this to

4 us?

5 A. Yes. Somebody stabbed somebody with a knife, but that happened

6 in a place that was beyond my range of vision. I know it happened, but I

7 didn't see it happen.

8 Q. Do you remember if it happened, an event with a knife and

9 Berghofer?

10 A. I think so.

11 Q. Please let us know what you remember.

12 A. It's called Modateks, that facility where we were taken. We were

13 probably taken there to keep us safe.

14 A soldier came there several times a day every day. He was a

15 non-commissioned officer. He talked to us. He asked us how we were and

16 so on. And then another girl came, an underage girl. Her name was

17 Sladjana Korda. She was the daughter of a colleague of mine, an

18 inspector who had fled from Vukovar. She was well developed. And I said

19 to her, "Little girl, I know both your parents, and I remember you from

20 when you were little. Don't do this," and then she got up and left.

21 Q. Did she threaten you or Berghofer in some way?

22 A. She threatened Berghofer, maybe some others, too, but not me.

23 Q. Was she using a knife or not?

24 A. I think she did have a knife. I think she did. I couldn't swear

25 to it, but I think she did.

Page 4947

1 Q. Do you remember if she used this knife or not?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. Do you know a person called Topola?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was this name mentioned by this girl while you were at Modateks?

6 A. Yes, yes. She said she would send Topola to take care of us, to

7 do us in.

8 Q. Do you remember what she said, specifically said, what Topola

9 would do with you?

10 A. That he would slit our throats.

11 Q. Can you tell us if you ever met Mr. Topola?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Please tell us where and when.

14 A. I couldn't tell you where I saw him or when because I was under a

15 lot of stress at the time, and that's why I can't remember.

16 Q. You stayed at Modateks for a certain time. Later on you left,

17 obviously, Modateks. Can you tell us if this is correct, and where did

18 you go then?

19 A. Yes. From Modateks they took us to Velepromet, to the room of

20 death.

21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter

22 number 4103 on the monitor.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Prosecutor, while we are waiting for

24 that next exhibit to come up, I would like you to explore with the

25 witness the -- the soldier who came to see them while they were at

Page 4948

1 Modateks for these three or four days. The witness told us that a

2 soldier came to see them and cared for them. Who did that soldier belong

3 to? Was ...


5 Q. Mr. Cakalic, do you remember what the Judge has spoken about, and

6 can you tell us about a soldier who came to Modateks to look after you?

7 A. Yes. He came, a soldier came, that is, but not to look after us.

8 He came to laugh at us, to make fun of us.

9 Q. Could you please describe laugh at you? What does that mean?

10 And who was it? Do you remember a name?

11 A. I don't know what his name was. I don't think he ever introduced

12 himself to us, but he came to see us twice a day, sometimes three times a

13 day, to see our reactions, and he wasn't planning anything good for us.

14 But as he was a member of the JNA, he probably didn't dare do what he

15 wanted to.

16 Q. How was you and your group described by the other Serbs while you

17 were at Modateks? Do you remember?

18 A. Excuse me? Could you repeat your question, please?

19 Q. In your former testimonies you told the other Trial Chambers that

20 your group had a certain reputation was described by the Serbs. Could

21 you please --

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection. This

23 question is impermissible. The Prosecutor is not interested in what this

24 witness testified in other cases. The witness is testifying to the best

25 of his recollection, whatever his recollection is. We have understanding

Page 4949

1 for his memory problems, but this kind of approach by the Prosecutor is

2 impermissible.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Objection sustained.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, do not remind him of what he might have said in

5 other cases unless --

6 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I think I was not very -- very specific in my

7 answer [sic] because it was not my intention to lead the witness. I

8 wanted to refresh his recollection.

9 Q. Mr. Cakalic, has your group of prisoners, the persons who came

10 from Ovcara, been described in a specific way by other Serbs who were

11 waiting and looking at you at Modateks? Do you remember?

12 A. Excuse me, I don't understand your question.

13 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I will not insist on this because it would be

14 leading.

15 Q. Does the name "Dedica" say significant to you in the connection

16 in Modateks?

17 A. Dedica, yes, Dedica. That was a man who looked after Modateks.

18 It was full of sewing machines and so on, and he was guarding all that.

19 He organised for us to get some food.

20 Q. Did he protect you?

21 A. He took us from Modateks to Velepromet. Now we went back to

22 Velepromet again.

23 Q. Could you have a look on the monitor. Do you see this picture,

24 and can you tell us what this depicts?

25 A. Yes. These are the hangars of Velepromet and the buildings in

Page 4950

1 the Velepromet compound.

2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Can I have -- move this picture into evidence.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That's exhibit number P285.


6 Q. Did Dedica protect you in a certain way?

7 A. Dedica fired a rifle at the light bulbs, but then he changed, it

8 seems, and on one occasion we even got something to eat. But he did

9 protect us at a certain point in time when he was taking us from Modateks

10 to Velepromet. Before we entered Velepromet we saw a group of nice, fine

11 young lads who cursed and swore at us with all sorts of swear words,

12 "Give me Cakalic. Give me Brkoher [phoen]. Give me this. Give me that

13 one."

14 Q. And how did Dedica react?

15 A. Dedica reacted humanely, honourably, and he took us to

16 Velepromet, to the so-called death room, or room of death, from which

17 some lads were taken and killed under the window. The windows were very

18 high up, so we were unable to see this. They're still there.

19 Q. Could you please describe us how big this room of death was and

20 approximately where it was at Velepromet?

21 A. It was in the last part of Velepromet. There were some 40 or 50

22 people in there all crowded together. Some other persons also came there

23 who wanted to see us. They're dead now, so there's no point in naming

24 them now.

25 They were drunk, and at one point a captain arrived and said --

Page 4951

1 he was a short man, a nice one. He said, "People, get ready. The

2 Chetniks are on their way. They're going to kill you all. I'm here with

3 a bus. I'll take you to the Vukovar barracks."

4 Q. Mr. Cakalic, we come to this a moment later. Could you please

5 let us know who were they who were taking out the people from the room of

6 death?

7 A. I know them by sight, but I can't tell you their last names, and

8 I think they're all dead now. They were elderly people who worked in

9 Vuteks. They were all fired up.

10 Q. Do you know if Topola was at Velepromet?

11 A. I think he was, but I couldn't swear to that. I think he was.

12 Q. Could you shortly describe us how this person was looking?

13 A. Topola?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. He was about my size, maybe a bit smaller than me. A very

16 problematic personality. He uttered threats. That's all I can say.

17 Q. Was he violent?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. Do you remember a person with the name Crk? Mr. Cakalic, I put a

20 question to you.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember --

23 A. Yes, Crk, Karlo. He was the director of the agricultural complex

24 in Vukovar. He was in charge of meat. Karlo Crk was taken out of the

25 hangar and they killed him there in front of the hangar.

Page 4952

1 Q. Who is "they"?

2 A. We didn't see them.

3 Q. Could you see who put him out of the hangar, out of the room of

4 death?

5 A. I think it was a man who used to work in Vuteks, but he died in

6 the meantime and I've forgotten his last name.

7 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Could we see, please, 65 ter number 2017 on the

8 monitor.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then you will have to finish,

10 because your time is just about up.

11 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Sorry, before I do this I would like to -- to

12 see the video which is 65 ter number 6037. This is a video which has

13 already been admitted under P58, but it has never been shown in this

14 courtroom, and I wanted to show this to the witness and let him comment

15 very shortly.

16 Q. Mr. Cakalic, please have a look at this.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we look at this I have an

18 objection. How is it possible that it's admitted in -- that it's been

19 admitted into evidence and it hasn't been shown in the courtroom? When

20 was it admitted into evidence.

21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The 30th of October, 2007, and it has been

22 admitted because it was already shown while you were testifying in

23 Milosevic, and all the documents from Milosevic have been admitted with

24 decision, I think it was the 30th of October, 2007.

25 So could we please see this.

Page 4953

1 Q. And, Mr. Cakalic, have a look at it and say us what it shows.

2 [Videotape played]

3 "The irregulars were celebrating in the streets that they had

4 fought for and singing a tribal song against the Croats."

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The song the Chetniks were singing

6 was, "Slobo, Slobo, send some salad. We are about to eat. We will

7 slaughter Croats and there will be meat."

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we see this video again,

9 because it was shown so fast.

10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's very short. I'm aware of this, and I want

11 the witness to tell it us if he experienced a similar situation.

12 [Videotape played]

13 "The irregulars were celebrating in the streets that they had

14 fought for and singing a tribal song against the Croats."


16 Q. Mr. Cakalic, did you --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Before you put

18 your question, in the translation we have the journalist who is

19 commenting says "the irregulars." One can see soldiers wearing helmets,

20 so I'm not quite sure why the journalist says this. How does he infer

21 that these are irregulars? Perhaps the witness can shed some light on

22 this.


24 Q. Mr. Cakalic, did you experience a similar situation, and if so,

25 when?

Page 4954

1 A. Do you mean these so-called soldiers?

2 Q. This group of people singing "Slobo, Slobo," and I can not repeat

3 the whole sentence, but you are aware of this.

4 A. Very well, yes. Yes. They were some people from Vukovar, and

5 there were also some people from some other places. I didn't know them

6 all. I know this first thing, "Slobo, Slobo, send us," et cetera, et

7 cetera, but they were fairly brutal. They were very unpleasant. And as

8 soon as people heard them coming, they would run and hide, go off the

9 streets. And the people were very much afraid generally, both Croats and

10 the Serbs, because the Serbs wouldn't have been spared either had this

11 unruly crowd started doing what it intended to do.

12 Q. Did you also see a group of these kind of soldiers singing this

13 and approaching you?

14 A. I don't remember -- well, that was in town, yes. That song, the

15 song resounded throughout Vukovar, especially by the volunteers who were

16 singing it.

17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Can I put another question or is my time over?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, your time is up.

19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Mr. Mussemeyer, you failed to ask -- to

21 answer the question which was put to you by the Presiding Judge, namely,

22 how the witness was able to -- or if the witness was able to explain that

23 the soldiers we saw on the video were irregulars, as I think the term

24 was.

25 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I wanted to do this, but my time was over. If

Page 4955

1 you want to put this question --

2 [Questioned by the Court]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. All right.

4 Witness, on what basis can you say that these were irregular

5 troops, because you yourself, you said it. On what basis can you say

6 that these were irregulars?

7 A. Because they weren't -- they didn't behave like real soldiers,

8 like proper soldiers behave, and I personally think that it was a group

9 that proclaimed itself, a self-proclaimed group, and thought that they

10 could solve this, that it was up to them to solve the situation.

11 Now, this group dispersed very quickly.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To your knowledge in Vukovar

13 the Serb army, or let's say the official army, the JNA, how many of them

14 were there roughly?

15 A. Do you mean these -- the ones singing the song "Slobo, Slobo,"

16 those?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. I'm talking about the JNA,

18 the Serb army that took over Vukovar. How many soldiers were there, 500,

19 1.000, 10.000? Can you give us a ballpark figure?

20 A. Well, I don't know. I really can't say, because at the time we

21 were in the hospital.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. You can't tell us. What

23 about these irregulars who were chanting "Slobo, Slobo"? According to

24 you, how many of them were there?

25 A. Well, it was a group of about, let's say, not even half a

Page 4956

1 platoon. There might have been some 10 to 15 of them. And they were

2 songs that were designed to instill fear into the population.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that 15 people

4 can terrorise a city like Vukovar?

5 A. They could. You can see that they could. It's like this: There

6 was general panic in Vukovar, you know. When a town falls, regardless of

7 where you were, the worst things tend to happen. First of all, you don't

8 know what's going on. You don't know where to go, what to do.

9 It was a very difficult situation, and nobody liked seeing these

10 things happen. The Serbs didn't like it and the Croats didn't like it.

11 All the people there didn't like it. But here you're faced with a new

12 situation.

13 I don't know whether you've heard of this before, but the Serbian

14 population started to avoid them. They started leaving Vukovar, in fact,

15 and they went to Backa Palanka and elsewhere in Serbia, because the songs

16 that were being sung, the ones we mentioned, compromised them. They

17 compromised the Serbian army.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm sure we'll have

19 the opportunity to address this tomorrow during the cross-examination.

20 We need to deal with a number of administrative matters for the

21 next few days.

22 Yes, Mr. Mussemeyer.

23 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Perhaps one short information. The document I

24 wanted to show on the monitor is the exhumation report of Karlo Crk.

25 That is the name -- or the person the witness was telling us about that

Page 4957

1 who according to the witness has been killed and this exhumation report

2 proves this. Indeed, it was not my intention to have this admitted into

3 evidence, just to let the Chamber know that it will be admitted hopefully

4 later.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

6 Witness, you will be coming back tomorrow. Mr. Seselj might not

7 be aware of this, but tomorrow we'll be sitting in the morning and not in

8 the afternoon as originally scheduled. We can do so because the Trial

9 Chamber in Delic is not going to be is sitting, and therefore we'll be

10 sitting in the morning starting at 9.00 a.m. and until 1.45. On Thursday

11 we'll also be sitting in the morning from 9.00 to 1.45. This relates to

12 the schedule of tomorrow and after tomorrow.

13 Furthermore, sir, you're under oath. That means that up until

14 tomorrow, you're not supposed to meet with anyone. You're not supposed

15 to meet with members of the OTP to deal or to address your testimony.

16 The VWS people are now going to take care of you, and they will bring you

17 back to the Tribunal tomorrow at 9.00. The usher is going to escort you

18 out the courtroom.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a few minutes left.

21 Mr. Seselj, tomorrow you'll be starting your cross-examination.

22 You have an hour and a half, so we'll complete the testimony of this

23 witness tomorrow.

24 Afterwards, we could watch the videos that appear on the

25 Prosecutor's list. I've done some math. We have about 40 videos. Most

Page 4958

1 of these clips are short. Some of them are just one or two minutes long.

2 Some of them last for just 30 seconds. We have a few videos that are a

3 few minutes long. In total we have 40 videos, and that amounts to about

4 one hour, one hour to play all these videos.

5 The Prosecutor has provided us with the number, the reference

6 number of the videos, the provenance, the date, the duration, and the

7 subject matter of the clips.

8 In total, we are talking about 40 videos.

9 I don't know, Mr. Seselj, whether you had the opportunity to have

10 a look at this list. Do you have anything to say at this stage?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President. It's a

12 big problem when the Prosecution offers a videotape lasting 20 seconds,

13 for example. That is really something that we can say in advance has

14 been pulled out of context, especially when we're dealing with television

15 programmes that I took part in. You have to know the context, the whole

16 programme, and the Prosecution has at its disposal the transcript of all

17 my television and radio programmes, the ones I took part in, and they

18 have been published in my books.

19 So everything that is listed here for tomorrow and what they want

20 to show over several seconds, they can provide us with the entire

21 transcript and check to see whether the sentence is actually there,

22 because you have to see the context it was said in.

23 I don't see how the Trial Chamber can find any value in a

24 20-second footage. You don't know what went before, what comes

25 afterwards. So the Prosecutor is just selecting a section, an excerpt,

Page 4959

1 according to Cardinal Richelieu, "Just give me one sentence uttered by

2 any man, and I'll find sufficient reason to send him to the gallows." So

3 that's what the Prosecution is doing now. They're just extracting 20

4 seconds and offering that up as evidence. Now, if you find that evidence

5 suitable -- well, I'm not challenging the authenticity, I'm challenging

6 the context. We have to look at the context. So what value is just 20

7 seconds to you out of context?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj. A number of

9 things. As far as the applicable law is concerned and the case law, the

10 Appeals Chamber in a number of decisions has stated that the admission of

11 exhibits could be done notwithstanding the fact that these are shown to a

12 witness or not.

13 So a video from a legal standpoint can be admitted even if no

14 witness comes to talk about it and say, "This is a video. I was there.

15 I shot it," for instance.

16 Now, for instance, the video 6040, this is a video which lasts 56

17 seconds. It's a video which has been shot by an amateur cameraman on the

18 20th of November, 1991.

19 Seemingly on this video we can see the famous Arkan and Kameni.

20 Arkan is dead. Kameni is elsewhere.

21 So this is a type of document which can be admitted without

22 having one of the witnesses. In any case, this would not be possible in

23 this case because one of them is dead.

24 So I could give you other examples also.

25 Now, second point: As far as the context is concerned, you are

Page 4960

1 completely right. The context is important. The Prosecutor, while

2 showing an expert of a video, could mislead a jury, but the only

3 difference here is that we are not a jury, we are professional Judges.

4 Now, if you want to mislead us, it's much a taller task, and the Bench is

5 capable of assessing the relevance and probative value of this.

6 If the Prosecutor wishes to pull the wool over our eyes by

7 showing us a small excerpt of a video, the Prosecution is running a risk,

8 because the probative value of this is quasi-nil.

9 Now, you've had time to look at the entire video. If you realise

10 that some of it has been tampered with or that a fact is being presented

11 out of its context, then you will be able, A, to make your remarks, and

12 in any case, some videos will be shown to witnesses again inevitably, and

13 you will then be able to put your questions.

14 Now, as far as the viewing of videos are concerned, this is how

15 we could proceed: We see the video. Everyone can see it, and the

16 Prosecutor says, "This is video with such-and-such a date, such-and-such

17 a number," and then we look at it. You then have the floor and you can

18 say, "I have no objections. I have an objection. I challenge this. I

19 don't agree. There's a context and other things which I would like to

20 put forward." So we show the next video.

21 If necessary, the Trial Chamber can say this -- we have seen this

22 video, as we did a while ago, the journalist is talking about irregular

23 troops; like that, it's is in the transcript. And when we say this, this

24 means that we have questions about the running commentary. So --

25 Mr. Seselj.

Page 4961

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not challenging

2 the right of the Trial Chamber to take a document and video footage

3 admitted into evidence. That is your right, especially if we're dealing

4 with videotapes showing me. However, I sent you two written submissions

5 compiled by my legal advisors and associates, and you can see there the

6 system of manipulation with videotapes by the Prosecution. And I think

7 it's all been precisely set out in those submissions, so I won't have to

8 go through them one by one. I shall, of course, be making comments to

9 each videotape, but the methods applied have been set out in that written

10 submission and so I think that videotapes lasting just 20 or 30 seconds

11 or one minute represent nothing at all. But of course if you find that

12 acceptable as a piece of evidence you can do so, but I'm not challenging

13 the authenticity and I'm not challenging your right to admit that as

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, for instance, a

16 video clip 6066, which lasts 2 minutes and 17 seconds, seemingly you are

17 speaking here. It says: "Seselj: Our volunteers were in Zvornik." So

18 seemingly in this video clip you are giving an interview, and the

19 interview must be given as part of this report on the death of

20 Yugoslavia. I believe this was broadcast by the BBC and you are being

21 interviewed here. And for two minutes according to what I can see you

22 seem to be talking about the volunteers in Zvornik. So we will see this

23 for two minutes, we will see your interview that lasts two minutes, and

24 then you will have the floor and you can say "Yes, I did say that, but

25 the context -- well, this follows." And then it's in the transcript.

Page 4962

1 So of course we will read your submission with great interest on

2 the way the videos have been manipulated or tampered with, because this

3 is of great interest to us.

4 In addition, if the Prosecution had intended manipulating

5 something, the best -- best proof of it would be by viewing the video and

6 you would be able to make a public statement. So I think this is what a

7 fair trial is all about.

8 It is now 7.00. It's time to stop. I wish you a pleasant

9 evening, and we shall meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day

12 of March, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.