1 Thursday, 20 March 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-67-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Today is Thursday, 20th of March, 2008. My greetings to the Prosecution,
12 to Mr. Seselj, and to all the people helping us.
13 As you know, today's hearing will be devoted to video viewings.
14 I suppose that Mr. Seselj has received in his own language from the
15 Prosecution a list of the videotapes that are planned today and are going
16 to be shown by themes.
17 Has this been done, Mr. Mundis?
18 MR. MUNDIS: It has indeed, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Mr. Seselj, have you received this list in your own language?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. The Trial Chamber
23 is now in the hands of the technicians. They're going to show us the
24 video clips, but beforehand can the Prosecution tell us where the
25 videotape comes from, who took the footage or made the video, and what
1 type of video it is.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. First of all, let me say
3 good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom on this, the first
4 day of spring, 2008.
5 The first video has already been admitted. It's P62. This clip
6 which runs for approximately 35 seconds is from the BBC documentary
7 "Death of Yugoslavia - Wars of Independence." The "Death of Yugoslavia"
8 series was produced by the Brook Lapping production company. It first
9 aired on the BBC in the autumn of 1995. That portion from the
10 documentary which includes an interview with Dr. Seselj was conducted by
11 Laura Silber in early March 1995.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I have a question
13 regarding this BBC documentary. We hear about it everywhere. I even
14 know that at the ICJ in the case of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 versus the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro this documentary has also
16 been used. We also know that on several occasions Mr. Seselj challenged
18 There's one thing I don't know because I've never seen the whole
19 documentary as such, how long -- how many minutes is it, or how many
20 hours is it, this documentary?
21 MR. MUNDIS: My understanding, Mr. President, is the entire
22 documentary runs approximately six hours.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Six hours you say. I see.
24 Very well.
25 Let us start with this snippet.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Vojislav Seselj: The very roots
3 of the Serbian cause are under threat. Hordes of Ustashas are attacking
4 Serbian villages, Serbian women and children. The Ustasha hordes are
5 trying to finalise the genocide of the Serbian nation."
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: And again for the record, that was P62.
8 The next video on the list again has already been admitted --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One minute, please. So this
10 has already been admitted, hasn't it. At this juncture, Mr. Seselj, do
11 you have any observations? I'm not asking you to testify, I'm just
12 asking you whether you have a short comment so that it be acted.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not testifying about anything,
14 Mr. President. I'd just like to remind you of my two written submissions
15 in which my associates explained the way in which videotapes are
16 manipulated. I think this is too brief an excerpt for anyone to
17 understand anything. I don't have anything against this. It is what I
18 said it is, my sentence, and I would repeat it anywhere and everywhere.
19 I'm not questioning its authenticity but this is just one sentence. I
20 would like to see a broader excerpt so that you can see the context and
21 why this speech was delivered in the first place. I can't see that from
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can move on to
24 the next clip, Mr. Mundis.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The booth would like to know whether you wish
1 the transcript to be read out. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Show us the second clip,
4 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps the Chamber could give some guidance. I
5 heard the interpreter ask if the Chamber would like the interpreters to
6 read out the transcript or if we simply want to have the rolling
7 transcript played with the tapes. Well, certainly the transcript is
8 certainly embedded in the videos but the question apparently from the
9 booth is whether the Chamber would like the interpreters to also speak or
10 read what's contained on the videotapes.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. When we see the footage
12 and when there is a comment by the journalist because more often than not
13 it is either the journalist commenting footage or Mr. Seselj speaking,
14 then the interpreters have to translate into English and into French what
15 Mr. Seselj says in his language, or if this is the journalist, an English
16 speaker who makes a commentary, the interpreters have to translate into
17 Mr. Seselj's language and into French what the journalist is saying.
18 That's it.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 The next video is again already in evidence. This is P59. This
21 runs approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds. This is material, archival
22 material, obtained by the Office of the Prosecution from Croatian TV,
23 HRT. It was provided to the Tribunal or to the Office of the Prosecutor
24 on 20 March 1996 by the War Crimes Commission Zagreb pursuant to a
25 request for assistance of 19 February 1996. Again, this is P59.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: I am jumping ahead a
3 bit. Are your volunteers fall within 'paramilitary formations.'
4 "Vojislav Seselj: We're not forming any kind of paramilitary
5 formations here in this narrowed down Serbia. We're only gathering
6 volunteers here and sending them where they're needed, to Serbia and
7 Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem and Serbian Krajina. And these
8 volunteers, they're placed under the command of local commanders, the
9 Serbs who live there and carry out orders regarding their activities on
10 the battlefield. Therefore, we are not engaged in establishing any
11 paramilitary formations here and we oppose any kind of paramilitary
13 "Journalist: And are you the commander of all those forces?
14 "Vojislav Seselj: Yes, of those volunteer forces which are
16 "Journalist: And have you control over the situation?
17 "Vojislav Seselj: Yes, I have control. So far I've always
18 exercised control over the situation and all our volunteers are very well
19 disciplined. We do not have any problems with them. We prohibit the use
20 of any alcohol and take only those who are capable to fight, who are
21 disciplined, who execute all tasks without objection, who above all act
22 valiantly towards the enemy, and you will not be able to find any Croat
23 who will complain about maltreatment unless he had a weapon in his hands
24 and was attacking Serbian villages. In particular, you will not be able
25 to find a single Croatian woman or child who would complain about
1 mistreatment by Serbs which is not the case with the Croats who are once
2 again making themselves noticeable by perpetrating awful crimes against
3 the population."
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis. Did you want
5 to add anything?
6 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to
8 Mr. Seselj, but I noticed one thing in this clip. Is the translation
9 correct? Because in Serbian it might not be the same word. However,
10 this may have serious consequences.
11 The journalist at some point says, "Are you the commander of all
12 these forces?" And Mr. Seselj answered: "Yes. I am the commander of
13 the volunteer forces which are there."
14 In English this is what is being said. In the French translation
15 that was the same, but I don't know what the journalist said in Serbian.
16 Did the journalist say, "Are you the commander", or, "The man in charge"?
17 Yes, Mr. Seselj, you wanted to say something?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm satisfied
19 because it's direct exculpatory material. As far as I'm concerned, I
20 really did say that I was the commander and that I have control. And you
21 heard that it was said that they were under the command of the local
22 commanders of the Territorial Defence in the operative sense, but I do
23 have general control in the sense that I control discipline, conduct, and
24 everything else. But there's something else that is essential here.
25 When is the take dated? The Prosecutor said it was the second half of
1 1991, so that's my observation, because I find it favourable. Look at me
2 on the tape. You can see white skin under the blue shirt and my face is
3 suntanned because it was the summer, July. I was in the shade somewhere
4 and you can see that I have this tan from the very hot sun. So it
5 couldn't have been the second half of 1991. So the tape speaks for
6 itself and says when this was taped. And this is obviously a time when
7 we're sending direct volunteers to the Serbian villages under attack,
8 under threat, and after the agreement of the JNA of the 1st -- with the
9 JNA of the 1st of September, the JNA decided where our volunteers would
10 be sent. So this is a vital point and two different things.
11 So this cannot be incriminating material at all because it is not
12 incorporated in the indictment. It is the period when the volunteers
13 went illegally, as far as the Serb authorities were concerned, not
14 through the JNA when they crossed the Danube illegally. So the most
15 important point here is to note when this tape was taped, the date, and
16 it can't be the second half of 1991. It was the first part of 1991 and
17 July at the latest. It could be May or June, July as the latest month.
18 Have a look again, you can see my white skin underneath my shirt and
19 suddenly my face is all red and suntanned under the hot sun.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't have time to get a tan.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
23 noticed that there is disagreement as to the date when this footage was
24 taken. In the documents the Prosecution mentioned the second half of
25 1991, so that could be from July to December. It also appears that
1 Mr. Seselj is wearing a summer shirt. He doesn't wear a jumper or a
2 coat. So it could be June, he says, May. It could also be July or
3 August. However, the Prosecution, when -- they could ask the Croatian
4 television to know the exact date. That shouldn't be too difficult to
6 Yes, Mr. Seselj?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And another observation. Judging
8 by the way in which the journalist spoke, this isn't Croatian television
9 footage. It's something that came into the possession later on of
10 Croatian television, because I think the journalist is speaking Ekavian,
11 if I was able to follow. So it's not Croatian television as the source
12 or perhaps a Serb journalist who did the work for them. That's not
13 impossible either.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In the French booth
15 the interpreters would like to correct something. Which is the
17 The interpreter in the French booth has just confirmed what
18 Mr. Seselj said, namely that volunteers are placed under the command of
19 local commanders, and they carried out orders by the local commanders.
20 This is what has just been said by the French interpreter. There was a
21 part that was missing before when we viewed the clip.
22 Very well. Let us move on to the third clip.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Actually, Mr. President, before we do that, I simply
24 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber would draw the Chamber's attention
25 to the testimony of Dr. Seselj in the Milosevic case concerning the last
1 video where he made very similar observations and comments to those he
2 has just made concerning P59, and the Milosevic transcripts of 15
3 September 2005, at page 44137, contain the comments of Dr. Seselj
4 concerning the last tape, and again they are more or less consistent with
5 what he has just informed us, and I felt that the Chamber might want to
6 review that with respect to this tape.
7 The next video to be shown is actually two clips. There will be
8 a brief pause between the two of them. This is again in evidence as P30.
9 This is some of the raw footage from the interview of Dr. Seselj for "The
10 Death of Yugoslavia" series. Again, this interview was taped in early
11 March 1995. The Office of the Prosecutor received this material on 24
12 August 2005 from the producer of that series, again Brook Lapping
13 productions. This interview was conducted by the journalist Laura Silber
14 and was part of the footage taken for "The Death of Yugoslavia" series
15 which aired in the BBC in the autumn of 1995. As I've indicated, there
16 are two clips. The first one runs approximately 1 minute 15 seconds; the
17 second one runs approximately 30 seconds and this is P30.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: In 1990, we were not
20 acquiring weapons, we were only enlisting volunteers and occasionally
21 sending them to the front lines if necessary from time to time. In 1991,
22 we began organising volunteers on a larger scale and send them to the
23 already formed fronts, especially Eastern Slavonia. Here in the east of
24 the Republic of Serbian Krajina volunteers proved themselves especially
25 in the battle in Borovo Selo which took place on May the 2nd, 1991, when
1 they defeated the stronger Croatian forces, Croatian police and
2 para-police forces. We were getting weapons from Milosevic's police from
3 the then -- first from the then Minister of Internal Affairs
4 Radmilo Bogdanovic and when he was replaced from his successor. We were
5 also getting old weapons from the warehouse of the Territorial Defence.
6 There were old American Thompson guns which had been withdrawn from use a
7 long time ago. There were also M-48 guns out of date, the so-called
8 Tandzare, what the enemy had stopped using a long time ago, what was kept
9 somewhere in the warehouses of the Territorial Defence. They felt sorry
10 to destroy it all so they just gave them to us, but it was with those
11 weapons that we beat the Croats who were armed with modern weapons."
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, for a number of reasons
16 this tape should be introduced if Laura Silber comes in as a Prosecution
17 witness. This is the '95 tape when there was a great conflict with
18 Milosevic, and you see the basic contradiction. I attacked Milosevic,
19 Radmilo Bogdanovic who was the vice-president of the lower Chamber of the
20 Federal Assembly and later I set out the fact that the arms come from the
21 Territorial Defence and the JNA and not the police. So quite obviously
22 there's some settling of accounts over there in Serbia between us where I
23 use heavy artillery to attack Milosevic and there he is moving towards
24 the Western forces waging a peaceful policy. So I think that I explained
25 this, too, in the Slobodan Milosevic trial and the Prosecutor can remind
1 us of that because he reads the transcripts. I don't read them; I don't
2 need to. So the question of relevance here is twofold. Secondly, this
3 obviously is an excerpt again because the Prosecution has in one of my
4 books that I disclosed in 2003 in a set of 88 [as interpreted] books, the
5 entire interview with Laura Silber. So it's better that they show you
6 that on paper. As far as I know, they've also had it translated into
7 English. Laura Silber worked with me, conducted an interview with me
8 which lasted a total of one hour.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I seem to remember that indeed
10 what Mr. Seselj has just said was said in the Milosevic trial. I believe
11 that he said that this was against Mr. Milosevic. So he said that
12 already. He's repeating it today, but you can find this in the Milosevic
14 Okay. Let's move on to the second clip.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. This is the second clip from P30.
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: In May 1992, I began having
18 meetings with Milosevic on a regular basis and back then it was always
19 Milosevic himself who asked for volunteers to be sent out. I mean, one
20 did not have convince us very much. We took this as our duty, our
21 responsibility except when it came to the deployment where they were most
22 needed because they were known as the bravest and the most capable and
23 the most disciplined men."
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the same explanation
25 as the previous instance. What is correct here? My meeting with
1 Milosevic is correct that took place in 1992, and having discussed what
2 the Serbs in Bosnia would do when the JNA withdraws, and then on that
3 occasion he said, "Well, you can continue to send volunteers." However,
4 after May 1992, the Prosecution does not have a single shred of evidence
5 about the involvement of the Serb authorities in sending out volunteers
6 because the volunteers which we sent went in civilian clothing and they
7 went almost incognito across the Drina River. So if the Prosecution does
8 have some evidence to show that official Serbia helped this after May
9 1992, then this could be confirmation along with that, because this
10 doesn't show anything in itself, especially since I deny it. This is
11 just my attack on Milosevic to make it more difficult for him to draw
12 closer to the Western powers.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This was already mentioned in
14 Mr. Seselj's testimony in the Milosevic case, which has been tendered
15 into evidence.
16 Let's move on to the next clip, Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape clip
18 is 65 ter number 6029, the old 65 ter number was 2066. This was a
19 videotape received from Natasha Kandic on April 1, 1996. That's the date
20 the Prosecution received this tape. It's a compilation of Serbian
21 television broadcasts, mainly news broadcasts. The date of this material
22 was either 2 or 3 November 1991, according to our records. This is 65
23 ter number 6029. This clip runs approximately 48 seconds.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Announcer 3: Volunteers from
1 Kosovo and Metohija today headed for the battlefield. We have a report
2 from Pristina about that from our colleague Milivoje Mihajlovic.
3 "MM: This is how the first of the volunteers from Kosovo and
4 Metohija going on an organised basis to the battlefield in Croatia were
5 seen off last night not long after midnight. Around 50 Vukovar -- about
6 50 volunteers from this southern province went to -- this volunteers unit
7 was formed in Pristina as early as the beginning of summer and its
8 commanding officer, Dragisa Vukcevic, is the manager of the local hotel
9 company Sloga. Volunteers are well equipped and in the past months their
10 commanding officers have been emphasising their non-affiliation to any
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to
13 Mr. Seselj, let me say this: We've just discovered this video clip for
14 the first time. I just make a personal observation. There are many
15 volunteers. All of them are -- look tidy, are shaven, and they are in
16 military uniforms with a cap and an insignia on them. So they seem to
17 have been gathered before boarding buses in a hotel. That's what the
18 video clip said. They get on the buses in order to go somewhere else, to
19 another location.
20 This is my personal observation of the video clip.
21 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm a little worried by that
23 comment of yours, Mr. President. I would like the Prosecution to find at
24 least one volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party who is dirty and unkept,
25 unwashed. With a beard, yes, but not unkept and dirty. Let them find
1 just one if they can.
2 Now, you saw at the end of this tape that the speaker says that
3 it is volunteers outside the party, which -- any party, which means no
4 party is involved. It's the volunteers that have rallied together from
5 Pristina. A unit was established and they were sent to the Sid army
6 barracks for training and they were sent to the front after that.
7 Now, the relevance of all this here is the question that arises.
8 What has that got to do with these proceedings? There were various
9 volunteers throughout the war. They weren't all volunteers of the
10 Serbian Radical Party and here is proof of that. This is proof that they
11 were not and this is exculpatory material, as far as I'm concerned. Once
12 again I'm not against it. I want it to be part of the record to show
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So you don't have any
15 objection. We can give a number to this clip immediately. Can we have a
16 number, Registrar, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The video clip shall be given
18 Exhibit number P00286. Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape bears
21 65 ter 4143. That's 4143. The old 65 ter number was 0298. This is a
22 clip that runs approximately 16 seconds. It's from a documentary
23 produced by the B-92 broadcasting company called "Vukovar, The Final
24 Cut." This documentary was produced in 2006. The Office of the
25 Prosecution received this videotape from the B-92 broadcast service on
1 March 3, 2006.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]Goran Milicevic: The order comes.
4 Let the old people go. The Chetniks are coming. Listen, we looked after
5 you as much as we could. The Chetniks are coming. We do not guarantee."
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remind you of the
7 previous clip. You saw the uniforms and the berets on the heads of the
8 volunteers from Pristina. Did you notice that all of them have berets?
9 They don't have five-star -- five-pointed star and obviously they had
10 been given uniforms by the JNA. What does it mean here when the speaker
11 says the Chetniks are coming? What Chetnik? Were all the Chetniks in
12 the war the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party? If this is the
13 Prosecutor's thesis then they should confirm that. Nothing can be
14 discerned from this clip here.
15 Yesterday you saw Witness Cakalic who spoke about the local
16 Chetniks from Vukovar of whom he recognised some and gave us their names.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it's a video clip
18 that lasts only 16 seconds, so obviously everything goes very fast.
19 I've got two questions. When was this video footage taken, and
20 where, because we see that fire is being opened. There are civilians
21 there. Everything moves very quickly, but I have no idea where it is and
22 when it is. Do you have any idea about this? Do you have any idea about
23 the date and of the place where these -- this footage was taken?
24 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, all the information that we
25 have is that it came from the television company B-92 in Belgrade. We
1 received it on March 3, 2006. It was from a documentary produced by B-92
2 entitled "Vukovar, The Final Cut." That's all the information we have
3 concerning this video clip.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must draw your attention to the
6 fact that B-92 is an American spy organisation which was directly funded
7 from the source fund and from the funds of the Western intelligence
8 services throughout all this time, from its beginning to this very day,
9 and I have mentioned it on a number of my interviews and the Prosecution
10 can find it in a number of my interviews. I publicly accused this TV
11 company of being an American spy, Natasha Kandic and B-92 alike. If you
12 now admit into the file the interpretation of their journalists about
13 something, then you have to know that this is always going to be an
14 interpretation against the Serbian people, against the Serbian Radical
15 Party and against me personally.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, do you challenge
18 the admission of this video clip? Because you're telling us that B-92 is
19 in the pay of the Americans who, if I understand correctly, are against
20 the Serbs. But you did not tell us what your position is. Are you in
21 favour or against the admission this video clip, because this could be a
22 clip in your favour or not in your favour. So what is your position
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this clip cannot
25 either harm me or benefit me. It doesn't say a thing. So why would I
1 object its admission? It doesn't say a thing. I'm not objecting. You
2 do whatever. Why would I object to this footage? It does not threaten
3 me in any way.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to ask
6 the registrar to give us a number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be Exhibit number P00287.
8 Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65
11 ter number 6040. It's 6040. The old 65 ter number was 2241. This is
12 video footage dated 20 November 1991. It was film that was used in
13 the -- or for the defence of Slavko Dokmanovic. Based on our
14 information, this was amateur footage coming from the defence of
15 Slavko Dokmanovic and shows members of the Serbian Autonomous District of
16 the SBSW, including Mr. Dokmanovic, Goran Hadzic, and Zeljko Raznjatovic
17 also known as Arkan. This is 65 ter number 6040.
18 [Videotape played]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once again we have a video clip
20 where things are moving extremely quickly. The only observation a
21 reasonable trier of fact can make when watching this video is that we
22 have two things here. We have a great number of soldiers wearing
23 military uniforms or camouflage uniforms.
24 Second thing, we see armoured vehicles next to these soldiers,
25 and we can see a soldier who apparently has been wounded to the hand and
1 is holding a dog. And at the end of the video we see a number of buses
2 stationed there.
3 A few words, that's the description of this video footage. We
4 see a number of individuals. I don't know them. It may be Goran Hadzic,
5 Kameni, Arkan, but I don't know these people.
6 Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the soldier with the
8 dog whose arm had been wounded is Arkan, and the blonde soldier towards
9 the end of the footage is Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni.
10 Where is manipulation here? Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as
11 Arkan, and Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni, in Vukovar. This is
12 what it says on the paper and my conclusion is that they were taken
13 together but they're nowhere -- nowhere together. I don't know whether
14 they ever met in their whole life. I only met Arkan on a couple of
15 occasions in my whole life, but I'm not sure that Kameni ever met him.
16 I'm raising the question of relevance here. Why is the Prosecutor's
17 office trying to have this admitted. I'm not objecting. If you are not
18 threatening the overload of your file, then why should I object? I'm not
19 objecting, but I'm raising the issue of relevance here.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have only one question,
22 Mr. Seselj. Was this video footage taken in Vukovar?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judging by everything, it was in
24 Vukovar, but how come Kameni is in the footage? Kameni must have been
25 shot here in Vukovar. Arkan could have been shot somewhere else, because
1 Arkan's units was to the north of Vukovar and Leva Supoderica that Kameni
2 was in command of was in the Sector South. These two units throughout
3 the war did not have any contact. Kameni was under the command of the
4 commander of the 1st Guards Brigade and Arkan was under the command of
5 the commander of the Novi Sad Corps. You could see this from the
6 documents that have already been presented and admitted through some
8 I'm not doubting that this was Vukovar. I'm sure -- I suppose
9 that this was Vukovar. I'm just raising the issue of relevance and I'm
10 not objecting to the admission of this document.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that this footage
12 was taken in Vukovar. The only thing you're challenging is that you
13 challenge that Kameni and Arkan would have been there together on the
14 20th of November at 3.42 p.m., because I believe that this footage was
15 shot at 3.42 p.m. It's been recorded on the transcript now.
16 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot swear that they never met,
18 but this is not what can be deducted from this video, and this is the
19 essence. I -- on the anniversary of the liberation of Vukovar I was
20 there. There were many people there, Major Sljvancanin, Radic. I met
21 Arkan in Beli Manastir on the anniversary of the liberation of Baranja,
22 you know. These meetings are not impossible but this video clip is not
23 the one to prove that there indeed was a meeting between the two.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Registrar could we
25 have a number please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Exhibit number
2 P00288. Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, let's move on.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape bears
5 65 ter number 6038, 6038. Old 65 ter number 2240. This videotape which
6 runs 2 minutes 50 seconds is from the British network ITN. The tape was
7 labelled "Vukovar, 19 November 1991." The Prosecution received this
8 videotape from the British network ITN on 4 March 1996, and this contains
9 a report by ITN reporter Michael Nicholson. This is 65 ter number 6038.
10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,
11 there is, it will be done.
12 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.
13 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in
14 a cellar. I did not see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here
15 an ..."
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to start again. We
17 have no sound.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,
20 there is, it will be done.
21 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.
22 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in
23 a cellar. I did not see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here is
24 an ...
25 "Pedja: What television are you from?
1 "Journalist: ITN London.
2 "Pedja: Will they lie about us again?
3 "Journalist: No.
4 "Pedja: Why did they lie about Dubrovnik? That one
5 [unintelligible] shaved down there."
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,
8 there is, let you be. It will be done.
9 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.
10 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in
11 a cellar. I didn't see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here as
12 an ...
13 "Pedja: What television are you from?
14 "Journalist: ITN London.
15 "Pedja: Will they lie about us again?
16 "Journalist: No.
17 "Pedja: Why did they lie about Dubrovnik? That one
18 [unintelligible] shaved down there ..."
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We run into some
20 technical problems, but eventually we managed to play this video.
21 A reasonable trier of fact may conclude that in this video we
22 have two parts. In the first part of the video we see a column of the
23 people who are walking down the main street, apparently. There is music
24 playing in the background. We see a soldier kissing a child. The people
25 we see there, the civilians, men, women, and children, do not seem to be
1 frightened at all.
2 The first question, therefore, is to know whether these people
3 are civilian or Serb -- Croatian or Serb civilians.
4 And in the second part of this video, the clip that was meant to
5 be shown to us, apparently, we see people climbing out of their cellars.
6 Apparently they spent several days, even several weeks in the cellars,
7 and we could believe and conclude that this happens just shortly after
8 the fighting.
9 My fellow Judge wants to add something.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to ask whether the
11 house we see in the first part of the footage is the headquarters of the
12 volunteers. I'm talking about the house with the black flag.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm not in a position to comment on
14 that, and I believe that perhaps the best thing to do would be to ask
15 some of the subsequent witnesses who might be in a position to identify
16 that. I would be hesitant to do so.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's -- it's -- sorry. I'm asking because it is
18 indicated in the list that there is a footage of the Chetniks'
19 headquarters, and I'm just wondering what that is.
20 MR. MUNDIS: With a question mark, I believe, as well indicating
21 that there's some uncertainty as to that point.
22 I would expect that we will have witnesses that this tape could
23 be shown to who would be in a position to identify that house or that
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Seselj, your
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, obviously this could
3 not have been the 19th of November. This could only be the 18th of
4 November. If you noticed, you could still hear shooting at the beginning
5 of the footage. On the day when the civilians came out of the shelters
6 is the day when Vukovar was liberated, on the 18th. There is no criteria
7 according to which you may distinguish the Serb civilians from the Croat
8 civilians. I suppose that the majority must have been Croats but they
9 came out of the shelters together.
10 And one more thing, there's no criteria according to which the
11 Prosecutor can make a distinction between a JNA soldier and a volunteer.
12 It may be done with the Territorial Defence, because with the Territorial
13 Defence the uniforms were incomplete. The parts were civilian, parts
14 were military because they did not have uniform storages from which they
15 could dress themselves. Volunteers, on the other hand, were all wearing
16 complete uniforms. They had come in them in -- from Serbia, and they
17 are -- they put the uniforms on in the barracks in Bubanj Potok.
18 And as for the Chetnik headquarters, this is pure manipulation.
19 The Prosecutor is duty-bound to tell you here based on which could he
20 write in the paper that this was a footage of Chetniks headquarters.
21 What is the indicia? What is the proof? Where does this come from? He
22 first put it on paper and then they're going to look for witnesses that
23 may be able to confirm this. There was no headquarters of Chetniks
24 there. There was no Chetnik headquarters in Vukovar up to the moment
25 that Vukovar was liberated and there was no Chetnik organisation together
1 with the existing JNA. There is an identification with a majority of
2 volunteers in the Territorial Defence with the Chetnik Movement, because
3 this is a good and nice Serbian tradition that the Communists tried to
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Your comments are on the
7 There's something I wanted to say earlier on. I'm going to say
8 it now. Do we know whether these people are Serb or Croatian civilians?
9 In the second part of the video, not in the first part. In the second
10 part we see an individual leaving a house, and he says that he's been
11 there for quite some time, and then he adds the words "from Belgrade."
12 "From Belgrade." We might infer from that that this individual before
13 being there was in Belgrade. If you like, we can show this again. We
14 heard him say "from Belgrade."
15 Is it a Croat who used to live in Belgrade and who came there or
16 is it a Serb? But this person spontaneously said "of Belgrade."
17 The comments of Mr. Seselj have been recorded on the transcript
18 are, and there's the issue here of the headquarters of the volunteers
19 possibly. The only thing we can say is that we see a building with a
20 flag. That's the only information we can draw from the video.
21 Let's proceed, Mr. Mundis.
22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would ask that that tape be admitted
23 into evidence.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That will be Exhibit number
1 P00289. Thank you, Your Honours.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the next clip to be shown has already
3 been admitted into evidence. This is P20. This is a documentary film
4 produced by the foundation The Right To Pictures And Words. This film or
5 this clip from the documentary entitled "Vukovar 1991, Images And Words
6 Of Hate." This clip runs approximately 35 seconds and again has already
7 been admitted into evidence as P20.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Here we are standing on
10 the Vuka River bridge. The Vuka River gave the name to this town
11 Vukovar. The Croats call it Stalingrad.
12 "Pedja: No way, man, no. Stalingrad, only in their stories can
13 they call it Stalingrad. Where the army and the Serbian volunteers tread
14 nothing can help them. They can call it what they want. Freedom has
15 come and this freedom will the not be sold easy to anyone anymore.
16 "Reporter: Are you a volunteer or are you from around here.
17 "Pedja: I'm volunteer from Sombor, but I intend settle down here
18 and live in this pretty town. Even demolished like this it's still
19 pretty. Even demolished it's still pretty to me, by the way. I'm Pedja
20 from Sombor."
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, just the question of
23 relevance. It's obviously a volunteer from Sombor. That's what it's
24 about. After Vukovar fell or prior to the fall and the liberation and he
25 expresses the desire to stay on and live in Vukovar. There were a number
1 of people like that. I know several. Maybe there were more than several
2 who stayed on and lived in Vukovar after the war. Some got married
3 there. They met young women there and married them. But once again the
4 question of relevance.
5 Now, I didn't hear the Prosecutor properly. This footage was
6 done by a foundation the right to freedom and speech, something like
7 that. I've never heard of a foundation with that name.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where does this tape come from?
9 MR. MUNDIS: Well, again, we received this from B-92 on the 8th
10 of May, 2001, and according to the information provided to us, it was a
11 documentary film produced by the foundation, which is called The Right To
12 Pictures And Words. So B-92 provided this to us. It's a documentary
13 produced by the Right To Pictures And Words Foundation.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to see the picture
15 of the volunteer again, because on his cap he has an insignia which is
16 very visible. Could we see this picture again, the picture of the
18 My colleague tells me that he has, too, so all the more reason to
19 see this again.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Here we are standing on
22 the Vuka River bridge, the Vuka River gave the name to its town Vukovar.
23 The Croats call it Stalingrad.
24 "Pedja: What do you mean Stalingrad? Only in their stories can
25 they call it Stalingrad. Where the army and the Serbian volunteers tread
1 nothing can help them. They can call it what they want."
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague tells me that one
3 can see two insignia. The first one which is in direct line with his
4 nose but you also see something which is cross-shaped. He wears a cap
5 with an insignia on it.
6 If there are no further observations, Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand where you see
8 the other badge on the level of the nose. The insignia on the beret is
9 the same as it is on the berets of the volunteers from Pristina. Now
10 what does it contain. It's a cockade with the old traditional Serbian
11 coat of arms, the laurel leaf symbol. So there's no skull and bone
12 insignia or anything else and it's the same as the cockade of the
13 volunteers you saw from Pristina. It's exactly the same. You can
14 compare the footage.
15 Now, this other sign there, I didn't see that. I don't know what
16 you're referring to. You said at the level of the nose? What?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can see that alongside it --
18 [Videotape played]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. Stop there. As you can
20 see, next to the insignia, on the left-hand side of the insignia you see
21 something which is cross shaped.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's -- that seems to me to
23 be a beret, a foreign -- a foreign manufacture. There was something on
24 the beret, and the trace remained. It's not something that's on the
25 beret now. It was something that was on the beret before the cockade
1 with the Serb insignia was placed. You can see the imprint of a cross.
2 Perhaps it's a sports organisation or something. It's difficult to say
3 what. But what the soldier wanted to place on his beret was the
4 traditional Serbian cockade.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video had
6 already been admitted under the number P20.
7 Let's move on to the next pictures, please.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65
9 ter number 6036. The old number was 0732. This is a clip which runs
10 approximately 30 seconds. This tape was received by Natasha Kandic on
11 the 1st of April, 1996. Again, it is a compilation of Serb -- Serbian
12 television news broadcasts. The date that accompanied this material when
13 it was logged into the OTP system was 16, 17 November 1991.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I have a question
15 for you. You told us on several occasions that Natasha Kandic had sent
16 you the videos. Does this mean that the OTP receives any document, any
17 video sent by anyone or do you select the material you receive and only
18 keep what you feel is important, and you set aside some of the things
19 that are being sent to you?
20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, obviously the Office of the
21 Prosecutor receives information, material, documents, videos, et cetera,
22 from a wide range of sources. Quite often witnesses have videotapes.
23 They hand them over.
24 If the videotape or any other material that anyone submits
25 purports to be authentic and relevant to any ongoing investigation, of
1 course the investigators will -- will take that material and enter it
2 into the evidence pipeline. It would be hard to imagine an investigator
3 who when someone offers him or her relevant material would turn that
4 away. So clearly we do receive material from a wide range of sources.
5 That does not necessarily mean that everything that we receive would
6 eventually be tendered into a court proceeding, but certainly unless
7 there's some reason to doubt that the material relates to the conflict in
8 the former Yugoslavia, we would certainly take that material and enter it
9 into the evidence pipeline.
10 With respect to Ms. Kandic, of course, we receive material from a
11 large number of NGOs, both small NGOs as well as larger ones that the
12 general public is aware of. So there's a wide range of NGOs across
13 entire spectrums of various interests that have provided the Office of
14 the Prosecutor with evidentiary material.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question of a
16 technical nature to put to you, Mr. Mundis. The OTP receives
17 information, as you've just told us, of any kind, amongst others videos
18 which you are able to identify, and you identify these as coming from
19 various media sources abroad. But what I would like to know, at the OTP
20 do you have any technicians, people of course who are of a great quality
21 and who are capable based on material like videos to determine whether
22 the video has been tampered with, has been edited? Did you have experts
23 or technical engineers, highly qualified technical engineers who would be
24 capable on the basis of the videos to detect any form of tampering or
25 that somebody had input items from outside or data from outside and
1 integrate it into the video.
2 MR. MUNDIS: The short answer to that question is no. When
3 material -- when we have reason to believe that material might have been
4 tampered with or it becomes challenged in court cases, the material is
5 sent to outside forensic laboratories for analysis.
6 As Your Honours will probably appreciate and can understand,
7 quite often when we receive tapes we are not receiving the original tape.
8 That is, we are receiving something that perhaps someone had videotaped
9 at home off of a television newscast or it's a copy of a copy of a tape
10 that someone produces or provides to us and as a result of that in many,
11 but not all, but in many instances it is not possible forensically to
12 determine if the original tape had in any way been altered because what
13 the expert's dealing with is a copy of a copy and not the original tape
14 itself. So quite often there are -- there are indicia that it's simply
15 inconclusive. A forensic expert will review this material and it will be
16 inconclusive as to whether there was any tampering simply because
17 forensic experts will, as a general rule, require the original tape in
18 order to make that kind of determination as to whether there was any
19 tampering at the source.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Judges, that it was -- it
22 is with good reason that the Prosecution has full trust -- places full
23 trust in Natasha Kandic, because she is the main instructor of the false
24 witnesses for The Hague in Belgrade. So they have every reason to
25 believe her. Of all the Serb spies in the American service,
1 Natasha Kandic occupies the number one position. So it's quite clear to
2 me why the Prosecution refers to her. She was in the public gallery a
3 few days ago and I almost burst out laughing out loud. She controlled
4 witness Stoparic, and then we have a tape of her message. So one should
5 bear all that mind.
6 So I quite understand why the Prosecution places great trust in
7 Natasha Kandic. They have to do so. As far as they're concerned, she's
8 a great authority for them.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are responsible for
10 your own words. You are saying that Mrs. Natasha Kandic instrumentalised
11 false witnesses. You are saying that she works for services.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you began speaking just now
13 I've heard nothing through the headphones.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. I was saying,
15 Mr. Seselj, that what you have said about Mrs. Natasha Kandic is on your
16 own responsibility. You said that she instrumentalised false witnesses.
17 You are saying that she works for the American intelligence services.
18 You are the one to say that. It's for you to demonstrate the
19 truthfulness of what you are saying but the issue doesn't hinge on that
20 as far as we're concerned. What we are interested in is to know whether
21 there's any form of technical control on the videos. The Prosecutor has
22 told us that this is just about impossible because they do not have the
23 original copies and on the original videos and it's very difficult to do
24 this kind of work on a video which is not an original video.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I think I would also like to
1 emphasise this: Mr. Seselj should avoid making any comments about any
2 individuals, please.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.
4 Can you show us the next video, please, 6036.
5 MR. MUNDIS: And at this point, the Prosecution will simply
6 reserve any possible responses to attacks by Dr. Seselj on Ms. Kandic,
7 but we may in the future need to return to that issue.
8 The next videotape as I've indicated bears 65 ter number 6036.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Novinar: Here on the front lines
11 on Trpinja road we also met soldiers ...
12 "Zivkovic: Zivkovic Vojislav, a Seselj volunteer.
13 "Draganic: Draganic Ranko, a volunteer from Indija.
14 "Novinar: When did you arrive and since when have you been
15 fighting here at the front lines.
16 "Zivkovic: Well, I myself came on the 15th of June and since
17 then I've been at the front lines wherever needed in Dalj, in Salvas, and
18 in Tenja, and here.
19 "Reporter: Do they have a chance, the Ustashas?
20 "Draganic: None. A bit longer and they're ours.
21 "Reporter: You came here and you said you've been fighting since
22 June. Tell us, are you under the command of the army or are you here as
23 volunteers, in which manner are you here on the fighting lines.
24 "Zivkovic: We're volunteers in cooperation with the army. We
25 get all the orders from the army. We're not fighting on our own because
1 the army is the one whom we are fighting with, their command.
2 "Reporter: So that means you're not representing the goals of
3 the party here but the orders and goals of the Yugoslav People's Army and
4 the entire Serbian people.
5 "Zivkovic: Exactly. We are reluctant to speak about being
6 Seselj's men because now is not the time to talk about that. There will
7 be time for that when this is over. Then when we can talk, but right now
8 we're fighting for Serbian land."
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video which is
10 an interview of a -- of a volunteer, the volunteer answers a question put
11 by the journalist purportedly of Novi Sad. He says that he's a volunteer
12 and that they're acting jointly with the army. He is saying, "We are
13 getting our orders from the army." It's their command. This is what
14 this volunteer says.
15 Let me add that we can see this volunteer. He is wearing an
16 armband on his left arm and something which looks like an insignia on his
17 chest, which we could see again perhaps.
18 So, Mr. Seselj, your comments.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am very pleased
20 that you had an opportunity to see real Seselj volunteers and so that you
21 can establish that they're -- that they look decent, that they have their
22 uniforms on, and that you don't ascribe to Seselj volunteers everybody
23 who is dirty, unkept, drunk, under the influence of drugs or who knows
24 what else.
25 This is an example of what the volunteers of the Serbian Radical
1 Party looked like. The bands around their arms are ones which certain
2 units had in order to be able to distinguish each other in an action.
3 And you can ask military experts. Sometimes you put a band on an
4 epaulette and other times around the arm. That's so that they can
5 distinguish themselves and avoid sort of friendly fire because sometimes
6 the other side wearing Yugoslav Army uniforms too.
7 But what I would like to say here is something else. They are
8 two volunteers in Vukovar and there was a description of where they went
9 into action, Dalj, Salvas, and so on. Tenja is a suburb of Osijek. So
10 bear that in mind or perhaps this was at the Trpinjska road. That's not
11 impossible, too. So that was to the north towards Vukovar but mostly
12 they held the line towards Osijek, if you have an idea of the
13 configuration. Osijek is at the confluence of the Drava and Danube
14 rivers but it's another municipality.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I have
16 understood you correctly you do not object to the tendering into evidence
17 of this video. Let's have a number, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am grateful to the Prosecution
19 for offering up this video footage and for tendering it into evidence.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An exhibit number, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The next -- the video clip
22 that was just shown shall be given Exhibit number P00290. Thank you,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the break we shall see
25 another video.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape or
2 clip is a second clip, actually, from the same 65 ter number, that is 65
3 ter number 6036. The source is the same as indicated for the last clip.
4 This clip runs about two and a half minutes and contains information from
5 the Novi Sad television daily news from 16/17 November 1991 and contains
6 an interview with Major Sljvancanin.
7 [Videotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] J: Today the units of the
9 Yugoslav People's Army have taken control of the Vukovar city centre.
10 Apart from that, the fighting has been continued against the forces, the
11 most hardened Ustasha forces still holding some check-points or
12 strongholds. Major, I would like to ask you briefly to describe for us
13 today's combat activities here in this area.
14 "VS: Well, all the units in the territory of Vukovar fight under
15 the unified command of the south operation groups and under the command
16 of the Yugoslav People's Army which is very important because volunteers
17 often say you never mention us and then I think we're all the same kind
18 and we fight under the same command for the same goals and they all
19 reported to us. We accept everyone who ever comes, every volunteer and
20 every well-meaning person. We equip them right away, prepare them for
21 combat, include them in the units of the JNA. They carry out combat
22 activities side by side with other soldiers. The enemy, that is the
23 Ustashas, are completely defeated. We control the whole situation in
24 Vukovar. There are only a couple more streets left where the most
25 hardened Ustashas are hiding and who at this moment offered to surrender
1 to us and ask about the conditions of their surrender. We gave them a
2 promise but sometimes someone gets to the station possibly even one of
3 them one who bothers them who say they are Chetniks there, they would be
4 slaughtered and else which disturbs them. Afterwards their leaders who
5 have been in contact with them under the name of Jastreb and under other
6 names no longer call them, they were absolutely quiet today. It is only
7 a question of an hour or a day when a few of them who remain, the most
8 hardened Ustashas will come out and surrender. Some groups have already
9 surrendered last night and today we have saved a large number of
10 civilians. Our soldiers and volunteers, call them as you like, have also
11 done some heroic deeds, especially the ones from Vukovar who know the
12 city go into basements at night and save people who are still in those
13 basements and who are still frightened and who fear the Guards' members
14 and Ustashas would come and slaughter them. And then when they explain
15 the whole situation to them, they gladly accept crossing over the
16 Yugoslav People's Army side and join our lines, our ranks and be given
17 all the help they need. As you have seen, we are successful in doing
18 this. We are saving a lot of innocent people who have been imprisoned in
19 the basement so I think we're going to clear the remaining small number
20 of streets during the day. We would like, and it is our goal, to make
21 Vukovar a free city for all citizens and all people of goodwill. We wish
22 to save our soldiers and our combatants and we don't want to push it now
23 at the very end in order to achieve all our objectives. It is important
24 to say the people can conquer all that and achieve the goal we set
25 ourselves and we're probably going to make it; not probably but for sure.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it was too fast for
2 them to be able to follow the tape and read.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question to put to
4 Mr. Mundis, first of all: Was this video admitted in what was called the
5 Vukovar 3 trial?
6 MR. MUNDIS: We would need to check our records on that,
7 Mr. President. Perhaps if Dr. Seselj has any comments, I can come back
8 to you in just a moment on that point.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Second question,
10 the interview of Mr. Sljivancanin addresses the question of the
11 volunteers and he says on several occasions that these people are
12 fighting side by side. These are the words he uses. Under the orders of
13 the JNA, this is what he says. As far as he is concerned, these
14 volunteers are placed under the command of the JNA. Right at the
15 beginning of the report it -- he also seems to indicate that it is the
16 army of Yugoslavia which is present.
17 So, Mr. Seselj, your comments on this footage, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree that this videotape should
19 be admitted but I have to express -- to say I'm sorry that it was cut off
20 when it seemed to be the most interesting. After the statement of the
21 then Major Sljvancanin and now colonel, we see a mass of soldiers and
22 that's what I was most interested in seeing, whereas they cut it off
23 there. So that's the problem with these very, very brief excerpts,
24 because you could see a large group of soldiers towards the end and it
25 would have been very interesting to see and if the Prosecution can
1 continue the footage for some 10 to 15 seconds and not to exert
2 censorship of the portion of the tape that might be the most relevant.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we give this an exhibit
4 number, could you tell us whether this video has already been admitted in
5 the Radic, Sljvancanin and Mrksic trial, please.
6 MR. MUNDIS: It was not admitted in that trial according to our
7 records, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we shall admit it now.
9 Can we have an exhibit number, please, registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The next exhibit number shall
11 be P00291. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you instruct
13 the Prosecutor to state his views. Was this footage tendered in the
14 other trial, or did they not tender it at all? Was it tendered and
15 rejected by the Trial Chamber there or was it or not? That would be an
16 interesting point.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is strange, because that was
18 exactly the question that came to mind.
19 Mr. Mundis, as far as you know, this video which has to do with
20 one of the accused in the Vukovar trial, had it been adduced or not? Had
21 it not been admitted? Had it been adduced by the Prosecution or the
22 Defence or what happened?
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps noting the time, we could
24 take our recess at this point in time and I will endeavour to provide an
25 answer to that question once we recommence.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the break I would like
2 to read out an oral decision which is important. I shall read it in
3 closed session, because it is both urgent and important.
4 Registrar, can we move into closed session, please.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 5098-5099 redacted. Private session
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to
13 break for 20 minutes.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I believe we have
17 now reached the video clip bearing number 6025.
18 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President. And this tape was
19 received by the Office of the Prosecutor on 19 September 2003. This
20 apparently also comes from TV Novi Sad, and this clip --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. I have an objection.
22 Mr. Mundis promised before the break to explain to us whether the
23 previous clip was tendered in the Mrksic, Sljvancanin, Radic case and
24 rejected by the Chamber or whether it was not tendered by the Prosecution
25 at all.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I was precisely about to
2 ask him that, but he's first going to finish the presentation of this
3 video clip.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Let me -- let me just address that point before this
5 tape, since it's come up.
6 Mr. Mussemeyer is attempting to locate that information
7 definitively. We on some occasions have the same videotape under
8 different numbers because we received it from different sources, and so
9 what we're trying to determine is that -- a definitive answer whether
10 that tape was tendered into evidence or not, and if it was tendered, by
11 whom and what was the decision of the Vukovar 3 Trial Chamber, because
12 clearly the numbered version that we had was not admitted in that case.
13 So I would expect we would have an answer to that question as soon as
14 Mr. Mussemeyer returns to the courtroom. So the answer will come in the
15 physical presence of Mr. Mussemeyer returning to the courtroom. So I
16 don't have any information on that point until my colleague returns. So
17 I would suggest that we just continue. I will get the answer. If I
18 don't have the answer today, I will have the answer on Tuesday of next
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 MR. MUNDIS: So again for the record this is 65 ter number 6025.
22 The old number was -- the old 65 ter number was 0729. This clip runs
23 approximately one minute.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] [No interpretation].
1 Reporter: And that we have to fight now in the present time to
2 create a new country and a new land where people are going to recognise
3 us, respect us, love us, and where we shall serve the interests of the
4 people. "
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, apparently there was a
6 problem. There was no interpretation into English. Is that so? So
7 we'll have to start again. [In English] Start again.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Attitude, dignity,
11 "Sljivancanin: All the soldiers of Operations Group South,
12 especially those of the Guards Brigade, all the volunteers, then the
13 units of the Vukovar Territorial Defence, the Leva Supoderica detachment
14 that participated side by side with our soldiers and were under the
15 single command of the Yugoslav People's Army acted with true heroism and
16 valour. We would not have been able to carry out this task without these
17 volunteers. The city of Vukovar Territorial Defence detachment in which,
18 unfortunately, there were fewer than we expected but the few that were
19 there were the right ones and they were courageous and they helped and
20 they helped us a lot. And that's why I still definitely think and I keep
21 pointing out that we really are the Yugoslav People's Army, that we are
22 the people's army, that we cannot do without the people and that we have
23 to fight now to create a new country and a new land where people are
24 going to recognise us, respect, us, love us, and where we shall serve of
25 the interests of the people."
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the officer, Sljvancanin,
2 says two things that struck me. First, he recalled that this operation
3 was conducted under the authority of the South Operational Group. The
4 second thing that he pointed out relating to the volunteers, he said that
5 everybody acted under the unified command or the single command of the
6 JNA. That's what he said.
7 Your comments, Mr. Seselj, and then we'll hear the Prosecutor --
8 or let's start with the Prosecutor, since Mr. Mussemeyer is back in the
10 The previous video clip and this one, were they admitted in the
11 Vukovar trial or not, or were they not presented to be adduced into
12 evidence, or was the tendering sought and rejected?
13 MR. MUNDIS: With respect to the tape that was shown prior to the
14 break which was admitted in this case as P291, that interview of
15 Major Sljvancanin was not tendered into evidence and consequently,
16 obviously, was not admitted in that case.
17 I will make a similar inquiry with respect to the clip we've just
18 looked at, 6025.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In connection with the previous
21 clip, I think it's very important, Judges, sirs, to point out that this
22 is evidently exculpatory material for Mr. Sljvancanin and for all the
23 accused in the case, Mrksic and Radic also. It's exculpatory for me
24 also. It's very important to say that the OTP had this at their disposal
25 but they did not tender it in the case where the Vukovar 3 were tried.
1 It is evident from this that before the liberation of Vukovar
2 nobody had the intention of shooting prisoners. He says for them to
3 surrender, for everything to be peaceful, and that is my case, that the
4 order to shoot the prisoners came after the fall of Vukovar.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry for interrupting
6 you, Mr. Seselj, but as you know, you are not presently testifying. We
7 only ask comments, technical comments from you regarding the videotape.
8 Don't go to the merits, which is what you're presently doing in two ways,
9 because you now speak about the other case, but that other case does not
10 concern you. It is for the others to raise such issues if this is indeed
11 in their interest.
12 Now, you say it's exculpatory. Well, that's what you say, but
13 you will have an opportunity to prove this through your own witnesses and
14 when you testify in person. Therefore, at this stage we cannot make any
15 legal findings because you're not testifying. You are merely making
16 comments, technical comments at that, on a tape which we have just been
17 viewing. And you can say, just as I do, that Mr. Sljvancanin is saying
18 that volunteers operated under the single command without any further
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm interested in
21 principle in all the cases before this Tribunal. They all concern me,
22 especially those that touch on my case, because I'm accused of
23 participating in a joint criminal enterprise. That's the first point.
24 The second point is the following: It's an international scandal
25 that the previous clip was not shown in the Mrksic, Radic, Sljvancanin
1 case, an international scandal.
2 And my third point and last one is that I hope the OTP is not
3 going to ask me for a fee because they offered -- or, rather, they
4 tendered these clips which are very important to my case.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you do not oppose the
6 admission of this video clip number 6025. I want a number,
7 Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P00292.
9 Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P292. Very well. Next clip,
11 Mr. Mundis. It is the 4143, if I'm not mistaken.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely correct, Mr. President. The next tape
13 bears 65 ter number 4143. The old 65 ter number was 0298. Again, the
14 source of this was the B-92 documentary "Vukovar, the Final Cut." This
15 documentary was produced by B-92 in 2006 and was received by the Office
16 of the Prosecutor on the 3rd of March, 2006. This clip runs 30 seconds.
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Blazevic: In a bullet-proof vest
19 with a beard. These are all butchers and murderers. This was all
20 staged. The person from the television came to tell him what to do.
21 This was filmed seven times.
22 "Unknown man: I was in the cellar all the time.
23 "Journalist: Is it true what they're saying?
24 "Milivojevic: These are murderers and butchers. Lie down.
25 There's nothing more to discuss.
1 "Blazevic: I wanted to be filmed because it would be evidence
2 that I was still alive."
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Could it be shown
4 again because it was very fast. In the beginning one has the impression
5 that there are two pictures next to one another. It's not very long.
6 Maybe we can see it again.
7 [Videotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Blazevic: The tall guy in the
9 bullet-proof vest with the helmet who shouted, 'Get down, those are
10 murderers and butchers.' This was part of the scenario. The television
11 director talked to him. It was shot seven times. He told him what to
12 say. This guy didn't know how to repeat what he said and then he told
13 him, 'Go and say whatever you want.'
14 "Unknown man: I haven't been anywhere. I haven't been anywhere.
15 I was in the basement the whole time. I haven't been anywhere.
16 "Journalist: Is it true what they're saying?
17 "Milivojevic: That's a lie. A downright lie. Those are
18 murderers and butchers. Get down. Get down for Christ's sake. We don't
19 have anything to talk to you about.
20 "Blazevic: I wanted that television crew to film me because if
21 they did film me, well, others would then see that I was alive."
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's very difficult to
23 understand this video clip. However, at one point in time we hear the
24 name of Topola being mentioned.
25 Yes, Mr. Seselj?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Seselj, please.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Believe me or not, Judges, sirs, I
3 have never seen Topola in my life. Here this soldier is introduced as
4 Topola, but let me draw your attention to one point. He had white belts
5 on both sides and this means that he belonged to the military police. He
6 had white straps and white straps were worn exclusively by the military
7 police and it was the military police that was in charge of guarding the
8 prisoners. The identity of this man has to be established. I don't know
9 who he is. Evidently this is about prisoners whom somebody is guarding
10 and he told them to lie down while he was guarding them. If there's only
11 one man guarding them, it's easier for him to guard them while they're
12 lying down otherwise one of them might escape. We don't see any arrests
13 being made here. We don't see any torture but we hear what the soldier
14 says that the people who have been taken prisoner are murderers and
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has discussed
18 the issue. It is hard to understand this video clip. Therefore, the
19 Trial Chamber will ask the registrar to give us a MFI number, because we
20 have nothing to admit this document definitively. So this can be
21 submitted again by one or the other party if they so wish. So a MFI
22 number, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will be P00293, marked
24 for identification. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So we have finished
1 the first chapter. We now can move on to the second theme, can't we.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Indeed, Mr. President. The second theme which the
3 Prosecution short-handedly indicated as Vojislav Seselj and his Vojvodas
4 on the front lines. The first clip is P16 marked for identification.
5 This tape was received by the Croatian government in response to a
6 request for assistance from the Office of the Prosecutor. It was
7 received by the Office of the Prosecutor on 30 March 2004. The tape that
8 we received was a compilation of various reports. The date of this
9 broadcast is indicated on the tape as being July -- or, sorry, 7 November
10 1991. That's 7 November 1991. And again, I believe the source of this
11 tape, although it came from the Croatian government, was television
12 Novi Sad, and this was P16, marked for identification.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: Those are our volunteers who
15 make part of the Territorial Defence. We haven't got any units of our
16 own here. All the people here are our people. All the units here are
17 our units, and of course those who have come here voluntarily to fight.
18 They know why they are here and what they're fighting for and they don't
19 need to be persuaded to fight because they themselves wanted to do so and
20 therefore one should not be surprised by their courage.
21 "J: How significant is the liberation of Vukovar for Serbia and
22 the Serbian people?
23 "VS: It's of exceptional significance, exceptional significance.
24 This is the most powerful Ustasha stronghold. Once Vukovar is taken, the
25 Ustasha have no chance of saving either Osijek or Vinkovci. There is
1 nothing to stop our forces. Vukovar is the key line that needs to be
2 broken through, that needs to be captured and then there will be nothing
3 the Ustasha can do. The Ustashas know that if Vukovar falls here, if
4 Slunj falls in the Serbian Krajina, then Tudjman's Ustasha regime in
5 Zagreb will fall too. And that is why this battle here is a decisive
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll play the clip again
8 because right from the beginning -- at the beginning, rather, there was
9 an insignia which might be relevant. So can we have the clip again. And
10 once we say -- when we say stop, please stop the tape.
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: These are our own volunteers
13 who are part of the Territorial Defence."
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Yes. I noticed this insignia on
15 the beret of the individual standing on the right of the picture. We've
16 seen that insignia before. Unless I'm mistaken, it's an insignia we can
17 also find on the helmet worn by Mr. Seselj during the interview.
18 Therefore, my question is what is the meaning of this insignia?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We should maybe play it again,
20 because the insignia is hidden by the logo of the Tribunal. So we'll
21 play it again and say stop and then you stop immediately.
22 [Videotape played]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. The individual who is
24 standing to the right of the picture has a beret with a cross-shaped
25 insignia. It's the same cross we saw on the previous beret. And then
1 Mr. Seselj told us it was probably a foreign beret with an insignia
2 added. But here we see it very clearly. We see the cross very clearly
3 on this beret. It's the same as the one we saw earlier on on the other
5 Mr. Seselj will probably have something to say about this. Let
6 me remind you that this exhibit has already received a MFI number, P16.
7 Mr. Seselj, your comments.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First I have to tell you that the
10 Yugoslav People's Army did not have such berets before 1990, except for
11 the parachute units, but the OTP should have at their disposal a large
12 number of clips of the Territorial Defence from the western part of the
13 Serbian Krajina, the Knin Krajina. Their members wore such a coat of
14 arms. It's a cross with four Cyrillic letters S, but they turned them
15 round so they were not facing away from the cross but towards the cross,
16 because they represent four letters S which stands for only -- only
17 harmony or brotherhood will save the Serbs.
18 We should see what else there is apart from the cross on this
19 insignia. I don't think this was common in Vukovar. I think only one or
20 two men had such insignia in Vukovar. Most of them wore the old Serbian
21 coats of arms, the so-called cockades and these were made of metal. On
22 my helmet you couldn't see that. You could see traces of the red
23 five-pointed star which I scraped off with a bayonet but I was unable to
24 scrape it off completely and you can see that on the helmet.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Irrespective of all
1 this, do you have any other comments about the rest of the video?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just draw your attention to
3 the following: All the volunteers around me are very neat and tidy with
4 full military uniforms on and helmets on. I think I should draw your
5 attention to that.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. The Trial Chamber has
8 decided that this exhibit that bore the MFI number P16 is now going to be
9 P16 without MFI.
10 Let's move on to the following video clip.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I should also indicate,
12 perhaps I should have done this earlier, if -- in light of the reference
13 Your Honour just made to the ICTY logo, if you toggle to the e-court
14 button on your monitors the videos will be shown without the ICTY logo
15 and the image is a little bit clearer, actually, than if you were to
16 toggle to the video button on the switch. So the e-court, for the
17 benefit of everyone in here, the e-court channel will give you the best
18 imagery of the videos.
19 The next video is -- has already been admitted into evidence
20 under numbers P60 and P185. This tape was received from the Croatian
21 government on 31 July 2001, apparently was recorded by TV Benkovac, and
22 there are references on this tape to the date being 23 November 1991.
23 This is P60 and P185.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] N: During the inspection of
1 combat positions, Captain Dragan came along. Let's see what looked like
2 when they met.
3 "CD: What joint combat? We sent a dispatch to the president.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is unable to distinguish any
5 words in the sound.
6 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] JNAO: He's not here. No. No.
7 No. He went over there. He's -- Uzelac, where is the guy?
8 "VS: Captain Dragan objected because he was against the
10 "UM: Mr. President, come over to this side a little bit.
11 Commander, come here. We won't argue. We won't argue. We want to
12 create the Serb army.
13 "CD: I've just come to say hello. I'm heading for Belgrade.
14 "CD: But you agree that I wouldn't --
15 "CD: Babic is a hero. I'm just a workout instructor.
16 "VS: You got involved in politics, man, and you shouldn't have.
17 If the conflict occurred --
18 "CD: Sir, but I'm telling the truth and must I not say what I
19 think the truth is?
20 "VS: No, you must not until the war is over because if this
21 truth is useful in wartime, you mustn't say it.
22 "VS: There are other battlefields for Captain Dragan in
23 Western Slavonia. He came here and he's done a lot here.
24 "CD: No, you have Milan Babic here. He's your hero.
25 "VS: Today you're turning the army against the Krajina prime
1 minister. He's the prime minister, no matter what he's like.
2 "CD: He's a coward, a coward, a traitor who broke up our unit,
3 who broke up Knin.
4 "VS: You're the one who's breaking it up. You're breaking the
5 battle field right here and you shouldn't have come. You're the one who
6 is breaking up the battlefield.
7 "JNAO: Please, since this is my territory I would prefer it if
8 you didn't talk about that here. No, this is not the place to discuss
9 that I came to make peace with Milan Babic and Milan Martic. You
10 shouldn't have talked about it here at all.
11 "CD: Who asks the -- who's asking the people? Who's asking the
13 "L: This influences morale.
14 "CD: No, but Babic Vojvoda and others pointed out --
15 "VS: You got involved in a conflict that you shouldn't have
16 interfered in. Ask Babic. Since Babic is the prime minister anybody who
17 don't like it can leave the Krajina. We are the army but the people
18 decide which authorities, which government is good and which is not. You
19 came here to help not to interfere. In a state of war you cannot change
20 the government. The government has to be changed by elections. People
21 don't -- don't interfere in this."
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This video clip has already
23 been admitted with the following numbers: P60 and P185.
24 The least you can say is that there is a very lively discussion
25 here between Mr. Seselj and the other persons, especially the individual
1 wearing a red beret and an insignia with three stars at the front of his
2 uniform, a man with the white hair.
3 Now, what is the context of this video? It's not really
4 something you can say just watching it.
5 Mr. Seselj, you were there.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This short man is
7 Dragan Vasiljovic, also known as Captain Dragan. I'm sure that you've
8 heard of him. At least the OTP knows the name. He bears the same
9 insignia that the Judge Harhoff pointed to. This is a cross with four
10 Ss, an insignia that was made for the Territorial Defence for Knin
11 Krajina, and there were samples spread all over the place. Some were
12 even worn -- worn in Belgrade. Second of all, this was taken two or
13 three days after the fall of Vukovar. We need a date here. The
14 Prosecution has not provided us with a date. This is the moment when I
15 arrived in Knin in order to prevent the rebellion of the army against the
16 Srpska Krajina government which was being organised by Captain Dragan.
17 After that, Captain Dragan left Krajina. I have to explain the
18 background of the footage otherwise we can ask about the relevance of
19 this footage.
20 On the 20th of November in Banja Luka, I received a message from
21 Milan Babic to arrive urgently in Knin and to help him fight Captain
22 Dragan. If you don't need the context of this footage, then you don't
23 need the footage either, do you?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, here you're
25 addressing the substance of this video. We'll come back to that later.
1 What's relevant is that you were there, Captain Dragan was there, there
2 was a discussion. There's obviously disagreement between you. As for
3 the rest, we'll deal with it later. You very probably will have the
4 opportunity to deal with that again and talk to us about Captain Dragan.
5 Furthermore, this video clip has already been admitted. Let's
6 move on to the following one.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I have to provide a
8 comment. I don't have to deal with Captain Dragan because we did not
9 have any contacts and there is nothing in my indictment speaking about
10 the western part of Serbian Krajina. Second of all, if you're not
11 interested in the context of this footage, then the question of the
12 relevance of this footage arises. How can this footage be irrelevant for
13 the fact that I am much higher than Captain Dragan and that the uniform
14 fits me much better. As a military figure, I -- I looked very becoming.
15 How else would it be relevant if you don't want me to give you the
16 context? If you need the context, then it can be put in two short
18 Obviously Captain Dragan had his own unit there. He did not obey
19 the authority of the civilian government or the military government, and
20 he had to be expelled from Krajina. After he was once expelled, he
21 returned in order to rebel against the government of Serbian Krajina.
22 That is the context and I'm opposing his attempts to stage up a putsch.
23 If you don't need the context then I really don't know why you would need
24 the footage at all.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've reminded us of the
1 context. Very well. Let's move on to the following video clip.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next tape or the next
3 clip bears 65 ter number 6013. The old number was 3155. The date of
4 this footage is 18 November -- I believe this might be a typo. It says
5 1992. The particular report was shown on Yutel and was produced by SRT
6 Knin. The Prosecution received this tape on 28 September 2006. This is
7 65 ter number 6013.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: The appearance of the
10 president of the Serbian Radical Party, Dr. Vojislav Seselj, who commands
11 great respect in Vukovar, was met with a storm of applause.
12 "Seselj: Serbian brothers and Serbian sisters, we have reached
13 the anniversary of the freedom of heroic Serbian Vukovar. A year --"
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not getting any
15 interpretation. Okay. Let's start again.
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: The appearance of the
18 president of the Serbian Radical Party, Dr. Vojislav Seselj, who commands
19 great respect in Vukovar, was met with a storm of applause.
20 "Seselj: Serbian brothers and sisters, we have reached the
21 anniversary of the freedom of heroic Serbian Vukovar, a year of Serbian
22 pride, unity, and dignity, but also a year of great sorrow for heroes who
23 have built their lives into the foundations of heroic Vukovar, who have
24 fallen for its freedom. As in any other war, in this liberation war of
25 the western Serbs, the best ones among us, the bravest, the most heroic
1 ones have fallen, the ones whom Serbdom held as most precious have
2 fallen. Today when most of Serbian Slavonia, Serbian Baranja, Serbian
3 Western Srem, Serbian Dalmatia, Lika, Banija, and Kordun, Western
4 Slavonia, when most of them are free we, the Serbs, have a reason to be
5 proud. Big powers have pressed us from all sides. All the enemies of
6 Serbdom have joined together in recent months to see us destroyed. It is
7 clear to them, the main source of our strength is Serbia, and they would
8 like to break the backbone of Serbia. They block her, introduce
9 sanctions and surround her from all sides. They would like to see Serbia
10 fall to her knees and then to be left adrift to tender mercies of our
11 traditional enemies. But Serbia's backbone cannot be broken. Serbia
12 cannot be forced to her knees, and Serbia will never leave you in the
13 cold. She will never let the Republic of Serbian Krajina or Republika
14 Srpska down. War is not a choice of us Serbs. We did not ask for this
15 war either and we did not want it, but there is something that is more
16 valuable and is more illustrious than peace - that is freedom and
18 "We will not let somebody commit genocide over the Serbian people
19 again. We will not let the Serbs, their hands tied be led to pitfalls,
20 to slaughterhouses, to execution sites. This time the Serb has readily
21 met with his enemies, have prepared for him, and this time the Serb has
22 persisted. He knew how to protect and how to liberate what is his.
23 "We the Serbs want peace. From all the neighbouring peoples, we
24 are the one which cares about peace the most because we have suffered the
25 greatest number of casualties in this 20th century in liberation wars.
1 But we, the Serbs, will not give what belongs to us. We live free and
2 proud in traditional Serbian lands. We are not giving even an inch of
3 these lands. We do want peace but we also want to have demarcation lines
4 drawn up between ourselves, the Croats and other Serb haters. Definitely
5 we will not go into a united and common state ever again. We do want
6 peace, but we do not want to negotiate while the sanctions are in place,
7 while the blockade is in place. There must be no talks with anybody
8 while our hands are tied. Serbian brothers and Serbian sisters, what
9 worries you the most is the fact that this country is being led by the
10 treacherous government of Milan Panic.
11 "Audience: That's right. That's right.
12 "Seselj: Milan Panic has been planted among the Serbian people
13 as a trick played on them, but he will not survive for long. He will not
14 realise any of his treacherous ideas because we, the Serbs, will not let
15 him do that, not the Serbs from Serbia, not the Serbs from Montenegro,
16 not the Serbs from Serbian Krajina or the Serbs from Republika Srpska.
17 His days are numbered.
18 "Audience: That's right.
19 "Seselj: And this winter no Serb, no Serbian child, must be
20 cold, and nobody must be hungry. We are capable of providing that, and
21 we will take care of the rest together with joint forces. We shall
22 resist all trials. Nobody can take Serbian Krajina away from us, so as
23 long as you are united and in accord with each other and so long as
24 Serbia is ready to give you a helping hand, and it will be ready
25 evermore, Serbian Krajina remains ours. Goodbye with the traditional
1 Serbian greeting, 'Serbia will be eternal as long as her children are
2 faithful.' Goodbye."
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. In the summary I have
4 here, the Prosecutor stated that Milan Lancuzanin, aka Kameni, was
5 standing next to Mr. Seselj. I've never seen Mr. Kameni, so I do not
6 know whether he was standing behind Mr. Seselj or not. Apparently he
7 must have been there, because that's been specified here by the
9 For the rest, we have a speech delivered on the anniversary of
10 the fall of Vukovar, on the first anniversary of the fall of Vukovar.
11 Mr. Seselj, do you have any objections against the admission of
12 this video? After all, it's a speech of yours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, I
14 would like to object to your comment. You said apparently Kameni was
15 there, because that's what the OTP put in their description, and I
16 guarantee to you that not even the Prosecutor can point to Kameni in this
18 If you can play the footage again and ask the Prosecutor to point
19 to Kameni to you, you will see what happens.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now going to turn to the
21 Prosecution. Why did you say here in the summary that Kameni was
22 standing next or behind Mr. Seselj whilst Mr. Seselj was delivering his
24 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if the tape can be played again, at the
25 beginning I believe that there is a very short part at the beginning of
1 the tape where Kameni is visible on this tape, and I would ask that the
2 first -- beginning of this tape be shown again.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I think to see him just in front
5 of Dr. Seselj when they are marching. There is a person with blonde
6 hair, and it seems to me Milan Lancuzanin. If we can see it again, and
7 Mr. Seselj can check this, it would be great.
8 [Videotape played]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, the
10 Prosecutor tells us that Mr. Kameni's the one here.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, your experiment is
12 successful. The Prosecutor indeed did recognise Kameni, and it is
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is indeed Kameni.
15 Now, with respect to the admission of this video, do you have any
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object because of the technical
18 quality, and also this is not an integral footage. I really enjoyed
19 listening to myself delivering this speech such a long time ago and
20 that's why I'm really sorry that I could not see the whole footage.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P00294.
24 Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move on to the following
1 video clip.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Next clip, Mr. President and Your Honours, has
3 already been admitted into evidence as P56, P56. This is a clip that
4 runs about 35 seconds from a documentary series entitled "Pictures Of
5 Words And Hate, Year Two." It was received by the Office of the
6 Prosecutor on the 6th of November, 2002. This is P56.
7 [Videotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] UM: Shoot -- shoot at the log.
9 Shoot at the log.
10 "MB: I am the president of the Serbian Radical Party [as
11 interpreted]. We actually control all the accesses to the city and all
12 exits from it, too, and we control approximately 75 per cent of the
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This video was admitted. It
15 was shot during a combat operation because we can hear the shots.
16 Mr. Seselj, do you have any comments?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to let you know
18 that these were local members of the Serbian Radical Party. All these
19 people were from Bijeljina. They were fighting against the Muslim
20 paramilitary formations and this is all I would like to draw your
21 attention to. And you can see that they don't wear complete uniforms of
22 the JNA. They wear whatever they could get hold of to look, to resemble
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next video footage, please,
25 because this video has already been admitted.
1 MR. MUNDIS: The next clip actually is two clips. It's also been
2 previously admitted into evidence. This is P30, P30. This is raw
3 footage from the Laura Silber interview with Dr. Seselj for "The Death of
4 Yugoslavia" BBC series. The first clip runs 4 minutes and 17 seconds.
5 The second clip runs 1 minute and 27 seconds. Again, this has previously
6 been admitted under Exhibit number P30.
7 [Videotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: Were your units in Zvornik in
9 1992, either you or your units.
10 "VS: Yes, our volunteers were in Zvornik. Arkan's volunteers
11 participated, too, as did another formation of a certain Zuca who was
12 under the command of the police and who is now being tried for war
14 "LS: And how did all of this come about? How did you decide to
15 go? Did you get an order from Belgrade? Did you get a request from
16 Srpska? How did everything come about?
17 "VS: Yes. We never received any orders. These were always
18 requests. Milosevic would ask us or Radmilo Bogdanovic would ask us.
19 Some general would ask us, Domazetovic, for example, or somebody else.
20 They would say they need so many volunteers for this and that location
21 and we would gather that many volunteers. When they say they need the
22 most experienced ones, we send the most experienced one. When they say
23 they could also use those with not much experience because it is nothing
24 dangerous, then we send such people. It was always like that.
25 "LS: And who then asked you to send your units?
1 "VS: In 1992, in May, I began having meetings with Milosevic on
2 a more regular basis and back then it was always Milosevic himself who
3 asked for volunteers to be sent out. I mean, one didn't have to convince
4 us very much. We took this as our duty, our responsibility except when
5 it came to the deployment where the most capable and the most disciplined
6 men would be. They --
7 "LS: Could you then tell us about one such conversation
8 regarding any places where you went or where you sent your units. How
9 would the conversations with President Milosevic go regarding that?
10 "VS: Those were very -- were always quick agreements. For
11 example, when Tudjman attacked Pocitelj, Divoselo and Citluk in 1993.
12 Milosevic had some sorts of agreements with him about that but it seems
13 that Tudjman did not keep his end of the deal. They had some underhand
14 dealings there, Milosevic was disappointed by Tudjman's actions and
15 therefore decided at the last minute to send volunteers there. He called
16 me and I went to him right away. He said 3 or 4.000 volunteers need to
17 be sent to Divoselo, Citluk and Pocitelj. We had 3 to 5.000 volunteers
18 within two days and Arkan brought along with him around 300 more. They
19 were sent out from Belgrade in literally two days. There were never any
20 problems with that. We would agree on this very quickly. This was
21 always agreed upon in a few words. We need to go. Let's go.
22 "LS: If you could concretely tell us how it came about that you
23 went to Zvornik. How did all of this come about.
24 "VS: You see, our volunteers were involved when the Zvornik
25 operation began, but only while the fighting lasted. They withdrew as
1 soon as the fighting ceased. However, some other forces under the
2 control of the Serbian police stayed behind and as soon as the operation
3 was finished, they began looting. They looted everything they could get
4 their hands on. They even stole from Serbs they came across. They were
5 not checking anything. They were all the same, stealing cars, foreign
6 currency, and so on. That caused great discontent among the people.
7 What was also happening there during the war and apart from everything
8 else was, you know, a mass movement of people. All the Serbs who
9 remained under Muslim control tried frantically to cross to the Serb
10 side. All the Muslims under Serb control frantically and instinctively
11 tried to cross over to the Muslim side. Well, the Serbs let all the
12 Muslims go but the Muslims did not let all the Serbs go. It was then
13 that the myth about ethnic cleansing came about. I cannot say it did not
14 happen anywhere but I can claim that it was never done in a systematic
15 and organised manner by the Serbs. Sometimes this was more organised
16 here in Belgrade in order to set up Karadzic."
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: And if you could describe to
19 us why it was actually important for the Serbs. If you could tell us how
20 things went when you left to Zvornik. Who told you to go? How did it
21 all happen?
22 "VS: You see, in May 1992 Milosevic definitely takes over the
23 absolute control of the Yugoslav People's Army. It was then that the new
24 constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was adopted and he
25 formally and actually became the main man in the country. The man who
1 made all the decisions. The Zvornik operation was planned in Belgrade.
2 Bosnian Serb forces participated in it and they were the most numerous
3 ones. However, the special units and the units most eager to fight came
4 from this side. Those were the very police units, the so-called Red
5 Berets. Those were the police units, the so-called Red Berets. Thy are
6 special units of the Serbian State Security Service. There were
7 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, Arkan's volunteers and there was
8 also a smaller volunteer unit also under the control of the police. The
9 army did not participate much in this operation. They mainly provided
10 artillery support when needed. It took a long time to plan, to prepare
11 the operation so there was no nervousness or calls such as, Come on, we
12 need this or that urgently. Everything was well organised and well
13 executed up until the hostilities ceased. Afterwards when the looting
14 began, no one could control it any more."
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We've seen this
16 portion of the footage, 4 minutes 17 seconds, 1 minute and 20 seconds.
17 This footage has already been admitted under Exhibit number P30.
18 Mr. Seselj.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My observation and objection is
20 that the complete tape was not shown of Laura Silber, because things have
21 been pulled out of context. As far as I remember, I described how the
22 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party set out for Zvornik from Belgrade
23 and that they were trained and armed in Bubanj Potok, that they set out
24 in buses and so on and so forth. So whether in that interview or in some
25 other interview, however, this other interview is in the possession of
1 the Prosecutor as well and I think it was brought up in another trial. I
2 referred to a man who commanded the police volunteers, and that was
3 Vojislav Jekic who was the commander of the police either in Zvornik,
4 chief of police either in Zvornik or in Loznica, and he took part in the
5 operation to liberate a place called Kula Grad above Zvornik. So just
6 one objection and that is that the entire tape of this conversation and
7 interview were not shown so that we could clarify many other points.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your comments are on the
9 transcript. The Trial Chamber will bear all of this in mind, of course.
10 We shall now move on to the next one, which is 6055.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, 65 ter number 6055
12 bearing old 65 ter number 0764 is the next clip. It runs approximately 3
13 minutes and 50 seconds. This was a compilation videotape concerning
14 media coverage of Milan Martic. It was received by the Office of the
15 Prosecutor on 3 January 2002 from the Croatian government and includes
16 some video footage taken by Serbian Krajina television. This is 65 ter
17 number 6055.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: One of the reasons of
20 our visit was the successful action a few days ago in which 16 Ustashas
21 were liquidated. In connection with this, the commander of the Republic
22 of Serbian Krajina army Main Staff, General Mile Novakovic, and Minister
23 Milan Martic visited the Serbian volunteers. General Novakovic
24 congratulated the soldiers on the successful action, stressed that their
25 unit could serve as a model to all those defending Serbdom.
1 "Novakovic: The Serbian army's Main Staff particularly values
2 the Serbian volunteers who have come to these western Serbian states to
3 defend them, to defend and protect both this people and this territory of
4 ours. We value you because we know that you have not come here to fight
5 for the sake of appearances, in order to seek glory for yourselves in war
6 or for any selfish, egoistical reasons but you have come to fight for the
7 freedom and honour of the Serbian people.
8 "Reporter: Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic, who leads this elite unit,
9 appealed to all Serbs who have not done so to join the defensive ranks
10 because Serbdom is not defended either in Belgrade or in Knin but
11 everywhere where Serbs have been attacked. The Serbian volunteers
12 include members of all parties but at this moment none of them are
13 interested in politics and they're all fighting under the unified command
14 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina army Main Staff.
15 "Ostojic: The motto of our fighters is patriotism and freedom
16 for the Serbian people and nothing else. We want to defend the Serbian
17 lands, to defend Serbian children and Serbian mothers, and to counter the
18 Ustasha devils militarily and heroically. And I would send this message
19 out to them: Let them leave the innocent alone. Let them be men and let
20 them stand on the battlefield and choose their own weapons. We are
21 ready. It makes me very sad. We -- there are Croatian women and
22 children here and not a hair on anyone's head should be harmed, but they
23 stick our children on knives and slaughter our --
24 "Reporter: The oldest soldier in Jovo Ostojic's unit is over 60
25 years old and that is why he is called Solunac, the Salonika front
2 "Djeric: They call me Solunac. I am Dusan Djeric from Sombor.
3 "Reporter: And tell me how old are you.
4 "Djeric: I'm 63 years old.
5 "Reporter: And how long have you been in this unit?
6 "Djeric: From the start. I have been in this unit since it was
8 "Reporter: You've seen many fronts.
9 "Djeric: Many fronts. And I'm very proud of my commander, Zuca
10 from Apatin. So far we have completed every assignment we were given.
11 We are still planning, and I am therefore telling those who stand in our
12 way, just as we have completed assignments up to now, I hope that we will
13 complete the next assignment that we are planning still better.
14 "Reporter: At the end the Serbian volunteers sent greetings to
15 Serbs in the Krajina. So as not to send greetings one at a time because
16 there are many of them, they sang it together as true Serbs do.
17 "Male voices: From our victory the sun of freedom rises, from
18 our victory."
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, any comments?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure that the
21 Prosecutor gave us the date when this video was taped, but I could
22 identify myself. It was 1993, when the Croats destroyed three Serbian
23 villages and killed all the civilian population in them. They are
24 Citluk, Pocitelj, and Divoselo, and that was when we sent a large number
25 of volunteers out from Serbia to help out. And most of these volunteers
1 shown here are from the Serbian Radical Party, and this is the Chetnik
2 Vojvoda, Ostojic. I proclaimed him a Chetnik Vojvoda myself.
3 Once again the question of relevance arises. As far as I'm
4 concerned, this is inculpatory -- exculpatory, interpreter's correction
5 exculpatory material for me because Vojvoda Ostojic says what the conduct
6 should be toward civilians on the enemy side.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit number
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention to.
11 I think I have to do that. Look how well dressed all these volunteers
12 are. There are young girls among them, young women, and you can see some
13 with beards but the beards are properly clipped, large beards like
14 Fidel Castro but well-kept. So regardless of the fact that he was a
15 Communist, Fidel Castro, it's a fine example for us because he's fighting
16 the Americans.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Registrar, can we
18 have a new exhibit number, because this was not recorded on line 17. I
19 need to look at the screen and listen all at once. It's difficult,
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number
22 P00295, Your Honours. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, next
24 piece of footage, please.
25 MR. MUNDIS: The next video clip, Your Honours, bears 65 ter
1 number 6069. The old 65 ter number was 0759. This is material that was
2 received from the government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 pursuant to a request for assistance. This shows or this material comes
4 from Srpska Radio Televizija. This is on or after 13 May 1995. This is
5 clip 6 -- PT -- 65 ter number 6069.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Announcer: Dr. Vojislav Seselj,
8 chairman of the Serbian Radical Party, visited Sarajevo and going around
9 the streets of Sarajevo he visited the front lines. Dr. Vojislav Seselj
10 stressed again that the Serbs east of the Drina River think and empathise
11 with the people in Republika Srpska and support the liberation struggle
12 of the Serbian people in these territories.
13 "VS: I am very happy, first of all, because of the very, very
14 high morale of the Serbian fighters to end this liberation war with
15 complete Serbian victory. And today I am more than ever convinced that
16 the whole of Sarajevo will finally be Serbian. We are here now in
17 Serbian Hadzici, Hadzici which from the first day of the war resisted
18 violent Muslim attacks but also Hadzici which triumphed in this war which
19 managed to save everything that is Serbian. Even the entire Mount Igman
20 was liberated but Muslims returned afterwards under UNPROFOR aegis with
21 which UNPROFOR actually showed whose side it was on in this war. Igman
22 will remain Serbian. I am convinced of that because of the strength of
23 the Serbian fighters, because of their faith in the Serbian cause, and
24 because of their faith in a Greater Serbia. Here the people created a
25 state which is strong, functions well and notwithstanding poverty, the
1 hard life the Serbian people of Republika Srpska will be triumphant.
2 They will be victorious. The destiny of Serbian Krajina is most of all
3 linked to Republika Srpska not to those rulers from Dedinje. The future
4 of the Serbian Krajina is in the unification with Republika Srpska,
5 unification now. Unification tomorrow, straight away.
6 "Announcer: At the end of his visit to Srpska Sarajevo,
7 Dr. Vojislav Seselj told citizens and combatants to endure in the
8 righteous struggle and that Serb radicals will help as much as they're
9 able to, that the Serbian people in Republika Srpska achieve final
10 victory and freedom."
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, any comments?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no special observations to
13 make except that this is footage from 1995, so I don't know how you're
14 going to incorporate this unbelievably into the indictment. Otherwise,
15 I'm proud. This is my visit to Serbian Sarajevo in May 1995, and that's
16 what it says roughly in the information provided by the OTP.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, this is a visit by
19 Mr. Seselj in 1995. Clearly this is outside the scope of the indictment.
20 What is the point of showing this video? What's the point of this, as
21 far as you're concerned?
22 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, it shows that even after the
23 indictment period it clearly shows Dr. Seselj with some of the
24 volunteers. We would assert that visible in that videotape is -- along
25 with Dr. Seselj is Branislav Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, one of the
1 Vojvodas. So it would certainly demonstrate that even after the
2 indictment period Dr. Seselj was associating with Vojvodas and some of
3 the volunteers.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, by the Dayton Accords,
5 according to the Dayton Accords, a lot of territory of Serbian Sarajevo
6 had to be handed over including Ilidza, Vogosca, Ilijas, and so on.
7 Branislav Gavrilovic, Brne, moved to Serbia. He didn't have anywhere to
8 live because he comes from those parts. And when I became president of
9 the Zemun municipality, the first thing I did was to employ him in the
10 service for security of the Zemun municipality, to give him a livelihood,
11 a means of livelihood for himself and his family, and then from Zemun
12 municipality he was given a flat in Belgrade. So when did I challenge
13 having seen him. Then he was employed in the security service of the
14 Serbian Radical Party later on, so of course I saw him. Of course I met
15 with him but what has that got to do with the period relevant to the
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecution is
18 saying that what is outside the scope of the indictment is this: You
19 went to meet some volunteers. Do you feel that this video is useful to
20 you in any way, because if it may seem useful and if everybody agrees,
21 then there he's no reason why it should not be admitted.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as a politician this is very
23 useful because it's going to be shown on Serbian television this evening,
24 but I don't know how legally relevant it is. So I'm not opposed to it.
25 I didn't visit the volunteers. These were Republika Srpska soldiers and
1 we didn't have any volunteers there at that time at all. That's the fact
2 of the matter and the Prosecution knows that after 1993, we couldn't send
3 volunteers out anywhere because of the conflict with Milosevic's regime
4 everything was blocked after 1993. So there are no traces of any
5 volunteers being sent to any of the fronts from Serbia unless someone
6 happened to swim across the Drina River and went to fight. There was no
7 organised sending of volunteers any more. It was just not possible at
8 that time.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we shall admit it and see
10 later on whether we value it in any way. For the time being it doesn't
11 seem to be very useful. The Prosecution is asking to have it admitted
12 and you have nothing against it notwithstanding its relevance, but
13 insofar as volunteers are mentioned in this video, even if in 1995 there
14 are no more volunteers, these are perhaps former volunteers. So I think
15 we could spend a lot of time discussing this, but could we have an
16 exhibit number, Registrar, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00296,
18 Your Honours. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're now addressing another
21 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. This is a topic which only
22 includes one video clip at this point in time and that is 65 ter number
23 1836, bearing old 65 ter number 0763. This tape was received from
24 Serbian television. We do not have information concerning the date that
25 this video material was taken. The clip that we have loaded up runs
1 about one and a half minutes long.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Would that mean a
4 bloodthirsty killing of civilians?
5 "Seselj: Well, every war is bloodthirsty and this war has not
6 been particularly bloodthirsty in comparison to other wars. This war has
7 been less inhumane, less bloodthirsty in any case than the ones the
8 Germans fought in this century
9 "Reporter: And why the Muslims in particular? Why not the
11 "Seselj: Because this time the Americans sided with the Muslims
12 in this war. We cannot -- they intervened on the side of the Muslims and
13 we have no reason to be attacking the Croats now.
14 "Reporter: Let's take the example of Gorazde. What will -- what
15 do you think will happen to Gorazde?
16 "Seselj: I think there is no saving Gorazde, that Gorazde will
17 fall into Serbian hands.
18 "Reporter: And the Muslims in Gorazde?
19 "Seselj: The Muslims from Gorazde will most likely go to
20 Arizona, California, New Mexico, and so on ... under American protection.
21 "Reporter: Will you allow this or will you try to prevent them?
22 "Seselj: Whom should I prevent?
23 "Reporter: The Muslims to leave.
24 "Seselj: No, because they're very dear to the Americans. I
25 think it is of mutual benefit the Americans cannot wait to take in those
1 Muslims. The Muslims cannot wait to go to America and we cannot wait for
2 something good to happen to the Muslims."
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So once again this seems to be
4 outside the scope of the indictment, because US strikes are mentioned
5 here and this comes after the indictment.
6 Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is rather problematic
8 because once again it's not the entire tape. Here you can see that I'm
9 hitting at the Americans, not the Muslims. So this footage, for it to be
10 understandable at all, must be shown in total, and it's outside the
11 relevant time. So it's just a manipulation on the part of the
12 Prosecution. It's as if I am trying to say that I want the Muslims to be
13 expelled from Gorazde, but you know that was already in 1994 when the
14 Serbs had almost liberated Gorazde or just liberated Gorazde and then had
15 NATO air-strikes against them and their operation had to stop. So that's
16 that particular period. And they could have found footage where I
17 threatened to USS 20 rockets to target American bases in Aviano. Perhaps
18 that's on this part of the tape but they didn't want to show it to you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has decided
21 orally not to admit this video.
22 Let's move on to another topic, shall we?
23 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps it would be best, Mr. President and
24 Your Honours, for the benefit of the record it could certainly be given
25 an MFI number.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We shall give it an
2 MFI number in that case. The Trial Chamber does not admit this video as
3 it stands so could we have a MFI number, Registrar, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P00297 marked for
5 identification. Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It might be better to have the
7 break now and resume after the break. Let's have a 20-minute break and
8 we'll finish after the break. We have still a few videos to see.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an answer regarding
12 the second video clip regarding Sljvancanin? Do you know whether it was
13 submitted in the so-called Vukovar trial or not?
14 MR. MUNDIS: We're still trying to determine if it was actually
15 tendered. It was certainly not admitted into evidence in that trial
16 along the same lines as the first video that we saw, the interview of
17 Major Sljvancanin.
18 Before -- Your Honours, before we proceed I do have a couple of
19 issues that I would like to clarify or correct with respect to some of
20 the videos we've seen earlier this morning.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Nothing's working
22 right now.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would you mind saying something
24 so that we see whether we can hear you.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honours. What I was saying is that --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead. It's good now.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. What I was saying is that I need to
3 correct two points with respect to videos that were shown earlier this
4 morning, it's been drawn to my attention. The first issue concerns the
5 videotape that had 65 ter number 6011. This was the videotape that had
6 been previously marked P16 MFI. That clip that was shown this morning I
7 have now been informed was a different clip from the same master tape, if
8 you will, and the tape -- the clip that was shown this morning and which
9 was admitted, therefore, actually should be assigned an entirely exhibit
10 number. And the prior clip from that tape which was P16 MFI should
11 remain as P16 MFI and perhaps we'll revisit that tape in the future with
12 a witness or on another video day, but the clip that was admitted as P16
13 in fact was not the same as P16 MFI so I suggest that we revert to P16
14 MFI and leave that clip as that status and the new number be assigned to
15 what was admitted as P16.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, give us another
17 number, a new number to replace P16. P16 remaining P16 MFI.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Exhibit number
19 P00298. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 MR. MUNDIS: And the second issue concerns the tape that we just
21 looked at, which was marked for identification P0297. Similarly, there
22 were a number of clips that were taken from the original 65 ter number
23 1836, and as a result for the benefit of everyone's record-keeping the
24 clip that has been MFI P00297, the 65 ter number for that should be
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So 1836A instead of just 1836;
2 is that right?
3 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President. Thank you,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go on -- move
7 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, but quite
10 obviously I can't think as quickly as I used to think several years ago.
11 I've become a little senile being in the detention unit.
12 The light flashed on when Milan Martic is praising the
13 volunteers, and a volunteer is mentioning a commander called Zuca from
14 Sombor, and I think that was the motive for the Prosecution to put
15 forward this footage, because the Zuca from Sombor is not the same Zuca
16 as the one from Belgrade who had the Zuta Osa, Yellow Wasp formation. So
17 if that was the intention of the Prosecution, that can't stand. The
18 nickname Zuca is very frequent in Serbia and usually it is people who are
19 very blonde who are given the name Zuca, because it comes from yellow, so
20 blonde yellow hair. So that particular lamp didn't flash on straight
21 away. It took me a while to realise why the Prosecution actually wanted
22 to slip that in.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has been recorded in the
24 transcript, of course, and the Trial Chamber will factor this in.
25 Now I think we can move on to the next chapter, JCE, and
1 organisation of volunteers. Is that so, Mr. Mundis?
2 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65
3 ter number 6069. The old number was -- the old 65 ter number was 0759.
4 This is another clip from Srpska Radio Televizija. The approximate date
5 of this tape is 13 May 1995. This tape was obtained from the Republic of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina pursuant to a request for assistance. And I
7 should note that the issues being discussed on this tape relate directly
8 to the indictment period notwithstanding the fact that the tape itself
9 was filmed in May of 1995. So I want to indicate that at the beginning,
10 because we would potentially have the same issue that the tape was made
11 outside the indictment period, but there are references to events inside
12 the indictment period. And this is 65 ter number 6069.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. President, I just note that 65 ter number
14 6069 was also the one that we saw for Exhibit P296.
15 MR. MUNDIS: And this would be clip A, if you note in the full
16 name in the column. A lot of the videotapes in order to reduce the
17 amount of -- the length of the tapes were subsequently cut into various
18 clips and this is -- this is in fact from the same original tape, but it
19 is clip A as compared with --
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Clip B.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Clip B which was P2696.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: It is very much more
25 difficult for us to send volunteers than it was in 1991, 1992, and 1993.
1 When we sent volunteers back then we had good cooperation with Slobodan
2 Milosevic. He gave us uniforms, weapons, buses. He put the whole
3 barracks in Bubanj Potok at the disposal of the Serbian Radical Party,
4 all the technical equipment that was needed and that worked much better.
5 Because of Slobodan Milosevic's betrayal, the Serbian Radical Party is
6 now facing great difficulties in sending and equipping volunteers. Our
7 volunteers are now being sent to their assignments in civilian clothes,
8 to wherever certain Serbian army commands invite them, mostly to the
9 Serbian Krajina, the western part of Serbian Krajina, the scarcely
10 populated areas where our help is most needed. And these volunteers pass
11 through the corridor in buses across Banja Luka and so on. The Serbs
12 living there are already familiar with this. We cannot talk about
13 numbers, of course."
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we have once again come
15 across the problem of incomplete footage and the mention of
16 Slobodan Milosevic here is personalising a regime, but it's a very
17 complex question and you can't draw any conclusions on the basis that
18 have very brief excerpt out of context. You know during the conflict
19 with Milosevic, whenever we speak about the regime we in fact mention his
20 name, but there's nothing that we're talking about here because all these
21 questions have been clear and clarified, but it would have been a good
22 idea to see the entire footage and not this brief excerpt which in itself
23 says nothing. Once again, a question of relevance.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video clip
25 mentions volunteers who were dispatched, the issue of weapons,
1 ammunition, logistics, so there is a connection and we're going to give a
2 number to this video clip. Mr. Registrar, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number
4 P00299. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS: The next clip to be shown has been admitted into
7 evidence as P30. This is further or additional material from "The Death
8 of Yugoslavia" production concerning the interview that Dr. Seselj gave
9 to Laura Silber in early March 1995. Again, there are two clips in this
10 exhibit. The first one runs a little bit longer than one minute. The
11 second one runs a little bit less than one minute, and this has been
12 admitted as P30.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: And when you got those
15 weapons you said the regime gave the weapons to your party or volunteers.
16 Was the political leadership and Milosevic informed about that or did you
17 get it through the police?
18 "VS: Milosevic knew about all of it. There's no doubt about
19 that. Key people from the police at the time with whom we established
20 cooperation were Radmilo Bogdanovic, Mihalj Kertes and others,
21 Franko Simatovic, called Frenki, and so on who commanded the red berets
22 later, and so on. Then from the General Staff we mostly worked with
23 General Domazetovic, who at the time was the deputy chief of the General
24 Staff and the head of the personnel administration, if I remember
25 correctly. But we also had contacts with lower-ranking officers and so
1 on. Depending on the need and depending on the situation our volunteers
2 would come to Belgrade to Bubanj Potok barracks. There they would put on
3 their uniforms. They would be issued weapons and buses and they would go
4 where needed. And they were under the command of the Yugoslav People's
5 Army as soon as the Yugoslav People's Army got involved in the conflict."
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've seen this already, and a
7 long discussion ensued.
8 Do you have anything to add to that, Mr. Seselj?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd just like to draw your
10 attention to all the shortcomings, the fact that this footage was not
11 shown in its entirety so that people could conclude that I wanted to
12 include Milosevic in everything, whereas in fact the truth is that we're
13 talking about cooperation with the JNA. So this is information that is
14 trying to be put in here, and I'm just trying to involve Milosevic in the
15 conflict and mention him with respect to the conflict but you must bear
16 in mind the fact that the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were
17 very popular in Serbia. There was not a single institution, not a single
18 patriotic individual who praised them as being disciplined soldiers and
19 so on and so forth.
20 Now we come across here with a problem of reduction and editing,
21 subsequent editing of evidence. For example, the Prosecution has
22 information from the book by a certain woman called Dobrila Glisic-Gajic
23 and she was brought in as a witness in the Slobodan Milosevic trial. She
24 was the Chef de Cabinet of Tomislav Simovic, the defence minister. Now,
25 they did not incorporate a single piece of information from her book
1 here. Why? Because she testified and said that Slobodan Milosevic
2 attacked General Tomislav Simovic for congratulating the volunteers of
3 the Serbian Radical Party as being brave and well-disciplined. The
4 Prosecution has that but it doesn't want to offer that information up.
5 They are providing us with an edited version and not with everything they
6 have in their possession.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if the Prosecutor does
8 not want to tender this as evidence, you can do so later yourself.
9 Let's move on to the next clip, clip E. That's the second part,
10 isn't it?
11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President.
12 THE INTERPRETER: I, interpreter's correction I.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: Can you describe the moment
15 when you parted ways with Milosevic?
16 "VS: When the Vance Plan was put forward in April 1993.
17 Milosevic called me several times to come for talks at his office at the
18 Serbian Presidency and also at the state villa at Poticeva Street and at
19 the Sava Centre prior to the failed all-Serbian convention and so on. He
20 tried to convince me but couldn't. This was when we practically parted
21 ways. The rest was all about trying to patch up the rift. We too
22 thought it possible for Milosevic to return to decisive national policy
23 so we could give him another chance. All of this lasted until the
24 Vance -- well, until the attempted coup in Banja Luka. Karadzic was also
25 counting on that, on Milosevic coming back after all, on him making a
1 break and not rushing headlong and following through with that policy.
2 And don't forget, Milosevic always won the elections here on a national
3 platform exclusively."
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was listening to this and I
5 was looking at Mr. Seselj, and there was one contextual element that
6 escapes me totally. Sometime they said the attempted coup in Banja Luka
7 and I don't know what was this is about but this can be seen in this
8 video clip. Your comments, Mr. Seselj.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have any observations to
10 make but if you want me to explain that putsch to you, I can, if you need
11 the information. If not --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have an opportunity to
13 get back to that. Let's move to the next clip.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip has also
15 been admitted into evidence as P63. This videotape which runs a little
16 bit more than five minutes is apparently amateur videotape. We received
17 this -- the Office of the Prosecutor received this tape on the 13th of
18 December, 2002. The tape was apparently shot at the end of March 1995.
19 This is P63.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] J: Vojislav Seselj is addressing
22 the Serbs from Glina only four months before Operation Oluja started.
23 "VS: Milosevic needed us both in 1991 and 1992. Besides,
24 Slobodan Milosevic was helping the western Serbian countries at the time,
25 Serbian Krajina as well as Republika Srpska. Serbian Krajina and
1 Republika Srpska were established with his help. Besides, he gave us the
2 Serbian radicals, weapons for 30.000 volunteers. We were sending off to
3 almost all the battlefields where they were most needed. He also gave us
4 buses, uniforms. He put the whole barracks in Bubanj Potok at the
5 disposal of the Serbian Radical Party for the volunteers. We haven't
6 forgotten that. And also in the first days after the battle in
7 Borovo Selo, when we were transporting the weapons across the Danube to
8 Eastern Slavonia on rafts by night, that weaponry we got from the police
9 warehouses and Serbian Territorial Defence warehouses pursuant to
10 Milosevic's order.
11 "We returned Milosevic's favour and supported him when he was
12 having a tough time, the toughest time. The Z-4 plan, the Zagreb-4, a
13 humiliation for the Serbian people from the beginning. What does Zagreb
14 have to do with us the Serbs? If this is a Z-4 plan, then it should be
15 implemented in Zagreb. Let them tear and divide up Zagreb instead. No
16 plan can be accepted by the Serbian side if it envisages integration of
17 the Serbian Krajina into Croatia. Well, we the Serbian radicals have
18 sent 3.500 volunteers to Western Lika near Citluk and Pocitelj. He will
19 probably attack Western Slavonia if he decides to or perhaps Slunj to
20 emerge with the 5th Corps, to link up with the 5th Corps if the Serbs do
21 not destroy the 5th Corps before that. But if he strikes now, he should
22 be given such a blow that he will never recover from it. Let's win back
23 even what we did not manage to recover in 1991, and then complete
24 liberating everything that is ours, Zadar, Karlobag, and finally to
25 finish with Gospic we have special motives for that, to liberate Karlovac
1 where the majority of the population has always been Serbian. To
2 liberate all of Western Slavonia, all the way to Virovitica. There is no
3 other way. We can trade, exchange territories, but always those of the
4 same value. If Maslenica is so important to Tudjman, we'll give it to
5 him and he can give us the Dubrovnik coast stretch, let's say. That's
6 the only way we can exchange territories. We want Grubisno Polje. We
7 want the whole of Pakrac. This is the only way smart politicians should
8 negotiate territories.
9 "Brother and sister Serbs, we the Serbs shall win. We cannot
10 lose. We must not lose. What we manage to preserve as Serbia now shall
11 always remain Serbian. If we lose even a bit of our territories now,
12 that will never be Serbian again. Serbian Krajina is not a part of
13 Croatia. Serbian Krajina shall never be Croatian. But we should
14 immediately move towards the first phase of unification, the direct and
15 immediate unification of Republika Srpska and Serbian Krajina into a
16 single state, western Serbia with Banja Luka as its capital. We must not
17 allow ourselves to be torn apart and divided by others. Serbia will
18 exist for us as long as its children are loyal to her. Long live Greater
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has already been admitted
21 as P63. Do you have any comments, Mr. Seselj?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Seselj.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no comments to make on this.
24 I would repeat this speech today even though the Serbian Krajina is
25 currently occupied by Croatia with the help of the Americans. It will
1 never be Croatian. We will certainly liberate it one day. Neither this
2 Hague Tribunal nor anybody else can stand in the way of us Serbs.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry. These are
4 political statements that are not allowed here in this Tribunal. I'm
5 ever so sorry, Mr. Seselj.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, I am being tried here
7 exclusively for politics.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe for the past, but not for
9 the future, and these are statements for the future.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all the more reason for the
11 OTP to extend their indictment and charge me with my intentions for the
12 future. I don't mind.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, let's
14 finish now with the video clip number 6025.
15 MR. MUNDIS: The final videotape to be shown today, 65 ter number
16 6025 previously bore 65 ter number 0729. This clip runs a little bit
17 less than four minutes. It was received by the Office of the Prosecutor
18 on 19 September 2003. This footage apparently originally came from or
19 was broadcast on Braca Karic TV, that's BKTV. This is 65 ter number
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Seselj: That's one thing.
23 Another thing, as regards what is stated in the indictment, they're
24 lying, and I'll prove it. In Hrtkovci I didn't call out the names of
25 Croats who should be expelled, I read out a list of Croats from Hrtkovci
1 who had gone to Croatia and were serving in the Ustasha National Guard
2 Corps. There were no expulsions. And regarding my statements, I wasn't
3 making them as someone in power but as someone from the opposition."
4 MR. MUNDIS: There is a second clip as part of this 65 ter number
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Seselj: ... for someone who is
8 used to working.
9 "Journalist: Tell me, will you be watching television or using a
10 computer? How will you write those books?
11 "Seselj: I don't know if that's possible. I have yet to find
12 out. I have a laptop.
13 "Novinar: That's good for communication, too.
14 "Seselj: One cannot communicate, the internet is certainly
15 switched off. Whether it's possible to keep a laptop in the cell without
16 being connected to the internet, that's another question. We will have
17 to see if that's possible."
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, why show us this
19 second clip?
20 MR. MUNDIS: The second clip, we'll withdraw that at this point
21 this time, Your Honours. The first clip is the one we're primarily
22 interested in.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In the first clip
24 we have an interview of Mr. Seselj with a journalist just before
25 Mr. Seselj goes to The Hague after having heard of the indictment against
1 him. That's what this clip is all about.
2 Mr. Seselj.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to the best of my
4 recollection I commented on the entire text of the indictment, but here
5 they only showed what concerned Hrtkovci. But tell me tell you
6 something, I must correct something that is stated in the indictment,
7 that list of Croats to be expelled was read out. That's a lie. There
8 were Croats who had already gone and joined the Croatian armed forces. I
9 say here that I read it out, but it actually wasn't me. It was an
10 activist from my party.
11 It comes to the same thing, as if I had read it out. If an
12 activist of my party reads something out, it's the same as if I had read
13 it out. But later on I may show this entire video in the courtroom
14 because we do have the video of this rally in Hrtkovci. But I have a
15 comment on all of this by your leave.
16 In 2003, up to the first half of 2004, I received video material
17 from the OTP on videotapes. Then they started sending me DVDs and I
18 refused those. I had the intention of refusing videotapes as well,
19 because instead of transcripts they gave me interviews with various
20 witnesses and suspects. I refused to accept anything that was on DVD.
21 Now that you've made it possible for me to receive all relevant material
22 on paper, transcripts of interviews, statements, and so on, everything
23 that traditionally belongs to typical court documentation, I am now
24 asking the OTP to disclose to me all the video clips that they have at
25 their disposal in their original version so that my associates can search
1 through it and find parts that are interesting for us but that the OTP
2 has kept quiet about.
3 So I'm asking for all the video material which really and truly
4 is video material, not, for example, an interview with General Panic of a
5 thousand pages for me to look at and listen to. No. What I want is
6 video clips, footage that was taken in particular times and places
7 relevant for this indictment, like the material we've seen today. I
8 think this is very important for my defence and that under Rule 68(i) the
9 OTP's duty-bound to disclose that to me. So I'm asking for all the
10 footage they received from the Croatian authorities, the Muslim
11 authorities from Bosnia, all three Serbian authorities that this be
12 disclosed to me in a reasonable time.
13 There are video clips here that I find very valuable for my
14 defence which I didn't know existed, and who knows what else they have at
15 their disposal that I have never seen.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before addressing this point,
17 we need a number for the last clip, for the last video.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00300.
19 Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, I'm
21 trying to understand what Mr. Seselj is requesting. He explained that
22 during the pre-trial stage, and you know that several Judges were in
23 charge of that stage, several Trial Chambers, in any case, at some point
24 he received VHS videos, he viewed them, and then he was sent DVDs, and he
25 refused as a principle to play these DVDs, to view them.
1 Today he's telling us that he's discovering these videos for the
2 first time, and he wants the Prosecution to disclose to him all the video
3 material, all the relevant video material that is at the disposal of the
4 Prosecution. He's requesting the originals. So I suppose he means that
5 these videos should be given to him in his own language. If a video is
6 in English, he should be provided with the transcript or the text in
7 B/C/S for him to be able to follow what's being said in French, German,
8 English, or whatever.
9 He is asking you to disclose the videos that are in possession of
10 the OTP.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I don't even insist
12 on having subtitles. I just want original footage not something that
13 they are duty-bound to give me on paper, to have me exert myself and have
14 this put on paper and so on and so forth, but original footage of
15 historical events. It doesn't have to be subtitled. We'll find our way
16 around it. I just want to have that material as soon as possible so we
17 can start searching it.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you want to receive them as
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, my associates can
21 operate DVDs.
22 MR. MUNDIS: We're trying to check some disclosure receipts,
23 Your Honours, but I believe that on two occasions we've tried to provide
24 this material and Dr. Seselj's refused to accept it so I don't know if
25 he's talking about the same video material or different video material.
1 I will say that the Office of the Prosecutor has undertaken a
2 huge effort to digitise all video material for the simple reason that
3 videotape has a very short -- relatively speaking, a very short lifespan.
4 And many of the videotapes, the original videotapes, when you go to play
5 them there's simply nothing left on them because over the course of the
6 past 15 to 18 years, they've simply deteriorated, if you will, the images
7 on the videotape. So if we're talking about actual videotapes, some of
8 them, there's nothing left on the videotapes. So as a result of that, we
9 have virtually digitised all video material. So the only way to get most
10 of that material would be on DVDs in digital format.
11 Now, I'm not sure if Dr. Seselj is talking about what we've tried
12 to disclose to him I believe twice which he's refused to accept because
13 it was digitised video rather than videotapes, or if he's referring to
14 something else. So if we could perhaps get a clarification of exactly
15 what it is he wants, but I believe it needs to be very clear that most if
16 not all of this material has been digitised for the simple reason that
17 the videos are in the -- are in the process of deteriorating because
18 videotape, unfortunately, does not have an indefinite lifespan, and some
19 of this material I know from dealing on other cases has deteriorated to
20 the point where it is simply impossible to watch. So videotape as an
21 option, something you put in a VCR machine, very well might not even be
22 an option with respect to some of this material.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, apparently when the
24 Prosecution started collecting evidence they were given videotapes by
25 various governments, NGOs, by Ms. Kandic, by X, Y, or Z. As time went
1 by, because this Tribunal has been around for more than 10 years already,
2 some of these tapes deteriorated, because most of us might know that it's
3 a process that happens with time, and because of that the Prosecution
4 decided to digitise all these videotapes and to put them in digital
5 format, on DVDs. They've started that, they might not have completed the
6 exercise. In other words, some DVDs in digital format were sent to you
7 and you refused them.
8 Before making any request today, it might be a good idea for your
9 associates to view all the DVDs you refused to accept. After that, you
10 may be in a position to ask for additional material, because I believe
11 that you yourself never viewed this footage. You never even received
12 this footage because you refused it.
13 Is that -- is that the position?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Mundis is
15 relatively new to this case, and he doesn't know all the trouble I had in
16 the first four years. Then the Pre-Trial Judges and Trial Chambers and
17 Prosecutors kept deciding to send me all the material in electronic
19 For example, along with expert Davor Strinovic there was a vast
20 quantity of documents. They wanted to send them all to me on DVD. Then
21 they are duty-bound to give me transcripts of testimony from other cases
22 for witnesses called here. They wanted to give me all of that in
23 electronic form.
24 The only way for me to oppose this is to categorically refuse to
25 accept anything in electronic format. You are now guaranteeing that I
1 will receive all these materials on paper and in the Serbian language.
2 This now opens up the possibility for me to accept video material which
3 is original footage of historical events, footage of myself making a
4 speech, visiting the front lines, and so on and so forth. Footage of our
5 volunteers, footage taken in these situations. I accept all of that on
6 DVD. I continue refusing to accept anything that I should get on paper
7 such as, for example, testimony from previous cases and so on and so
9 I don't want the Prosecutor to see a chance here now of foisting
10 off on me DVDs with interviews of suspects or witnesses, witness
11 testimony from other cases, and so on and so forth. I think I've been
12 quite clear now.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think I understand. It's
14 rather complex, but I will try to sum up the issue.
15 Initially the Prosecution sent all, and I insist all material,
16 everything, on DVDs. I'm talking about documents, transcripts, video
17 footage, and so on and so forth. This was sent to either him or to his
18 standby counsel. As you know he went on a hunger strike, and then we
19 started everything from scratch. From then on, he received the material
20 coming under Rule 68 in his own language and in -- on paper, material
21 related to Rule 66 or 68, but now we are faced with a problem.
22 Those videos were initially mixed with all the rest, with all the
23 other materials, and now he wants to have this video footage on DVDs. I
24 suppose what the Prosecution should do is to look at all these DVDs that
25 were sent to him to try identify the video footage that is on these DVDs,
1 and the Prosecutor should now -- and that's a positive development, and I
2 believe that as the day's gone by things will develop positively. So now
3 Mr. Seselj has decided to accept DVDs with video footage related to
4 historical facts. For example, when he went to the front, when he dealt
5 with such-and-such person who's mentioned in the indictment.
6 That's the way I understand his request. Is the Prosecution in a
7 position to go through the hundreds or thousands of DVDs that were
8 initially disclosed to the accused, is the Prosecution, in order to do
9 this for the Prosecution to then send him only the video footage on DVDs?
10 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I would need to check, but I am being
11 informed by my case manager that there were 15 DVDs that contained
12 exclusively video material, that contained -- these 15 DVDs contained
13 more than 100 hours of what might be described as historical or
14 contemporaneous video material. That we have tried to disclose to the
15 accused on two separate occasions, 27 September 2007 and again on 30
16 October 2007.
17 This contains all of the material on the 65 ter list. We
18 certainly -- it would take us many, many weeks if not months to go
19 through all of the video material that the OTP possesses looking for
20 specific things that the accused might be interested in.
21 I would respectfully suggest as a starting point that Dr. Seselj
22 accept, if he has not accepted thus far, or review, if he and his
23 associates have not reviewed it thus far, the 100 plus hours of videotape
24 material contained on the 15 DVDs. If he needs another copy, we have a
25 copy of it upstairs and it can be in his hands within a matter of hours
1 at most. Certainly by the end of today.
2 If there is additional material that he wants that is not
3 contained in these 15 DVDs, I will certainly -- or sorry I'm now being
4 told it's 12 DVDs not 15. So I stand corrected. These 12 DVDs, I would
5 certainly entertain a letter from Dr. Seselj asking me for more specific
6 videos if he can tell me I'm looking for this material from this from
7 this time period, that would be helpful. He can write us a letter in
8 Serbian. We'll read the letter. We'll see what we can do and respond to
9 it. But everyone needs to understand we have thousands and thousands and
10 thousands of hours of videotape, many of which are compilation tapes
11 covering the entire conflict in the former Yugoslavia and it's simply not
12 possible to sit down and review each and every one of those tapes in any
13 kind of a timely manner.
14 So I would strongly suggest that we start with the material that
15 we've tried to give him, those 12 DVDs, and if he knows of specific
16 interviews he gave or specific footage that he is aware of, I will check
17 the archives and we will disclose that to him in a digital format on a
19 I think that's the most practical, reasonable, and expeditious
20 way to go forward.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is once again a positive
23 Mr. Seselj, the Prosecution is telling us that there are 12 DVDs
24 which amount to a hundred hours and that this was sent to you. If you
25 have misplaced them, the Prosecution can give you another copy.
1 Now, from a technical and tactical standpoint, it would be
2 advisable for you, perhaps not for you solely because a hundred hours is
3 quite a long time for your associates to view all of this, and that under
4 your authority afterwards you could then say that some videos are missing
5 relating to historical facts, historical events, and important
7 Mr. Mundis is quite open about this and is prepared to read any
8 letter coming from you, and this cannot be levelled against the
9 Prosecution. There are -- they have hundreds and thousands of documents
10 to review, thousands and ten thousands of viewing time, and we cannot ask
11 Mr. Mundis and Mr. Mussemeyer to 24 hours a day be rooted in front of
12 their screens and tell you what this contains.
13 Now, just by way of an example, in the case of Mr. Kameni,
14 perhaps certain videos in which one can see Mr. Kameni, perhaps some of
15 these videos are useful.
16 So this is a twofold response. First of all, please check out
17 these 12 DVDs that amount to a hundred hours of viewing time, and then
18 when you make your requests, make very concise requests to enable the
19 Prosecution to conduct the appropriate researches.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
21 ... acceptable to me, but you were a Pre-Trial Judge when on one occasion
22 I calculated and came up with a figure of 800 hours that I would need to
23 review all the material concerning other cases that at the time the OTP
24 wanted to hand over in the electronic form to me. This was absolutely
25 not feasible.
1 Now we have reduced that to the historical video material. I'm
2 going to accept these 12 DVDs and my associates are going to prepare a
3 request for some other things that we might be interested in. I believe
4 that this video material is not protected, that it is all public. So the
5 OTP will probably not have a problem providing us with a list of
6 everything that they possess so as to enable us to see what we might be
7 interested in. I suppose that they have a list of everything that they
8 have in their possession, so all in all the 12 DVDs plus a list of
9 everything else they have and we will have a successful cooperation.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know that. I
11 have some experience in this Tribunal. Unless some of the videos have
12 been tendered under seal in some other cases, then if you were to
13 disclose this then an application should be made before the Chamber.
14 This might complicate matters.
15 This is just a textbook example. Let's, for instance, take the
16 case of an ICRC document and that this video document has been used in a
17 particular case because the ICRC may or may not have had protective
18 measures and that this document is under seal. In that case, the
19 Prosecutor needs to look into the problem.
20 I don't know. This is purely theoretical.
21 You have told us that you are going to view all these DVDs, you
22 together with your associates, and you are going to be making precise
23 applications to the Prosecutor to obtain one or other video, and from
24 then on the Prosecutor can conduct his own searches if he can. If he
25 can't, well then he won't be able to meet your requests.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And a list of all the things that
2 they have in their possession.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One other thing, Mr. Mundis.
4 Does the OTP have a register in which you have recorded all the videos as
5 they came in, which would be easier for you? For instance, if a video
6 came from Vukovar, this might be registered as Vukovar BBC, CNN, Sky
7 News, I don't know.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Ideally, that's the way it should work. I will
9 state the following, perhaps Your Honours are aware of this from other
10 cases: All of the evidence registration numbers, the ERN numbers, the
11 16-digit numbers that are assigned to each piece of evidence, any ERN
12 number that begins with V is a video. So I can certainly generate a list
13 of all the videos -- the ERN of all the videos that we possess. If the
14 videotape was provided to the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 70, it should
15 have -- the first digit or the first figure in the ERN number should be
16 R. Any ERN number beginning with R is a Rule 70 document. A video that
17 came under Rule 70 should be stamped with an R rather than a V. That
18 means I should be able to generate a list of all the videos in the
19 possession of the Prosecution.
20 Now, the issue then becomes -- because certainly a list with
21 however many thousands ERN numbers beginning with V is of little or no
22 value to anyone. The issue then becomes what type of description I can
23 pull out of the database that could be provided and which would in any
24 way be helpful to the accused.
25 Virtually all of the investigations undertaken by this office in
1 the initial stages prior to indictment had a code-name. Most of the
2 investigators would have logged the material in under that investigative
3 code-name. So it's not always the case that you can tell by simply
4 looking at the description what geographic area or what crime base or
5 what the document or the video relates to. So it will really depend in
6 part on the quality of the descriptions of the person who entered that
7 material into evidence.
8 I'll have to check on that. I don't know how long it will take
9 for me to extract that information out of the database. I certainly --
10 it would seem -- it would seem standing here at this moment it would
11 certainly be easier for us to provide such a list to the accused and to
12 have him indicate what material he wants than for him to provide us with
13 a letter which we then go and search. So if the easiest thing, the most
14 reasonable step, the most practical way of getting this material to
15 Dr. Seselj and the most timely way is for us to give him a list and for
16 him and his associates to, in effect, tick box what they want and get
17 that back to us, that that very well might be the easiest way to do it.
18 Again, having said that, I need to go back and determine first of
19 all what that list would look like if we just pull it out of a database
20 because the descriptions might be such that it makes absolutely no sense
21 to anyone outside of OTP. Of course that list is going to be in English
22 and if it's -- if it's a 900-page long list of videos and we have to
23 translate that into Serbian, that's going to take us a long time to do.
24 So it's not something that I can just go back to my office and
25 push a couple of buttons and out is going to come a list of videotapes
1 that is going to make any sense to Dr. Seselj or members of his team. I
2 can't tell you that that's going to be the case standing here now. I
3 will have to go make some inquiries. I will have to determine how long
4 this list is. I will have to determine if in fact I'm going to be
5 ordered or requested to give that to him in Serbian. Then that's going
6 to take a significant period of time for me to produce and generate a
7 list like this in Serbian. And it could very well be a question of weeks
8 and months before I could do that depending on how long the list is and
9 how much there is in the description field for each of these videos.
10 So I'm certainly prepared to do what I can to get this material
11 to the accused, but I'm going to need to make some inquiries and come
12 back to the Chamber at some point next week once I have a better handle
13 on what it is that we could produce in terms of a list.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, if I have understood you
15 correctly, the videos are referenced as -- under number V or R, and Rule
16 70 videos and then you have a set of figures. You're able to provide
17 such a list and you can disclose that to Mr. Seselj, but to make it more
18 useful, let's assume you have something that begins with the letter V.
19 Would you be able to tell us whether it relates to Zvornik, the JNA, the
20 volunteers, so that he is able to identify it? If you just give V with a
21 series of numbers, that will not be very evocative.
22 Is your database sufficiently efficient? Is there a description
23 of the video together with these numbers?
24 MR. MUNDIS: That's what I was trying to explain, Your Honour.
25 It depends in part on the investigator or analyst who in effect obtained
1 this material and what type of description they gave to it.
2 Again, all of the investigations in the pre-trial phase,
3 pre-indictment phase went by code-names so that we could discuss them
4 without other people knowing what they were all about. Some
5 investigators will have logged that in and it will say video material
6 relevant to the Tusk [phoen] investigation, for example. That will have
7 absolutely no meaning to -- to Dr. Seselj or members of his team. That
8 will tell me, as someone in OTP, everything I need to know about what
9 case that tape concerns.
10 So I'm going to need -- I'm going to need to do a little bit of
11 homework here in terms of what those descriptions look like, what type of
12 information I can pull out of the database, what this spreadsheet that is
13 going to be produced is going to look like, how many hundreds or
14 thousands of pages is it going to run to because of the detail or lack
15 thereof of the descriptions, et cetera.
16 So I don't -- the short answer is I don't know until I have the
17 chance to have members of the staff in effect produce a -- produce a
18 dummy chart for me to look at and see if that's something that's going to
19 helpful at all in terms of the descriptive fields and what I can pull out
20 of the database. So I don't know what this list will look like. I don't
21 know how long this list will be. I don't know if those descriptive
22 fields are going to be sufficient to allow Dr. Seselj to make any sense
23 out of it.
24 Once I'm able to do that, perhaps next week I can come back with
25 a sample, if you will, and show everyone what this type of list would
1 look like, give you an indication of how many pages it would be. And as
2 I said, if I'm going to be ordered or required to produce that in the
3 Serbian language, then we're going to be talking about an exercise that
4 obviously is going to take many months before in all likelihood before
5 we're able to produce such a thing. And again, that's going to mean
6 other transcription or translation projects will have to be re-evaluated
7 because we do have, you know, limited translation resources available to
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's assume you identify a
10 video which is related to Zvornik and involves volunteers. Well, that's
11 not going to take months. The purpose for Mr. Seselj, as far as I can
12 see, well, for him it's important to have a list and the titles of the
13 videos, and then he can say whether he's interested or not, and if he's
14 interested, then he will ask you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show you my
16 goodwill and make your job easier, sir. Yesterday I insisted on this
17 being submitted to me in Serbian for principle reasons and I hope that
18 you have all understood why I insisted.
19 I can accept your list in English because all the names are in
20 Serbian, all the geographical name locations -- locations are in Serbian
21 and the times and the dates I understand. The timing is very important
22 here. Even if it is delivered to us in English, if it is delivered to us
23 as soon as possible, that's okay, but do not, please, believe that from
24 now on everything else will be accepted in English. In order to make
25 your life easier, I will now accept for this material to be accepted in
1 English but nothing else.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
3 continues] ... chapter, Mr. Mundis will conduct his research work and get
4 back to you. As soon as he has prepared a list, he will disclose this
5 list to you.
6 Now we have to finish, Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, there is another
8 problem that I wish to raise. I also have at my disposal certain video
9 footages that are relevant for the events and the times pertaining to the
10 indictment. I want to show some of the video footages in my
11 cross-examination of these -- of some witnesses. However, there is a
12 procedure in the detention unit that disallows me to do so. According to
13 the procedure in place, every DVD has to be inspected and it is only then
14 that it is decided whether the accused can have it or not.
15 Now I'm asking the registry upon your request to find a solution.
16 When my legal advisors bring DVDs to me that they are able to hand them
17 over directly to me maybe with a sticker like the registry does for the
18 video footages of the trial so that nobody can take these videos from me.
19 I have to personally determine which videos I'm going to use and
20 which not. Why should the prison administration be allowed to view all
21 these before me? I believe that this violates the essential rights
22 arising from my defence.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Together with the legal officer
24 of the Trial Chamber we would look into the matter and see whether this
25 is feasible or not, because as you know, the prison commander is
1 responsible for anything that comes in and that leaves the prison. In my
2 country, the relationship between an accused and his lawyer, well, this
3 is a privileged relationship and is confidential, but in case I'm not
4 quite sure because the administration of the prison may say if I don't
5 check to see what's in it, I don't know what it may contain. This could
6 perhaps jeopardise order and security. I don't know. I'm not able and I
7 don't think my colleagues on the Bench are able to provide you with an
8 answer today, but we will let you know as soon as possible.
9 We have a few minutes left. We have two witnesses that are going
10 to be coming next week - I won't tell you whether there are any
11 protective measures or not - which means that on Tuesday we shall start
12 at 8.30, and the legal officer will tell you how much time will be
13 granted to the Prosecution and the accused for his cross-examination.
14 That's right. There are two witnesses who are going to be coming next
15 week, Mr. Mundis; is that right?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please be given their
17 pseudonyms at least because I don't know who they are. One is a BS and
18 the other --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're going to learn that
20 straight away.
21 MR. MUNDIS: That's -- that's exactly what I wanted to say. On
22 Tuesday carrying over into Wednesday, the Prosecution will call VS-1013.
23 That's 1013. We would expect his evidence to begin on Tuesday and carry
24 over into Wednesday. On Wednesday, then, we would call VS-1015. That's
25 1015 to commence on Wednesday and hopefully to finish on Thursday, the
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. How much time,
3 Mr. Mundis? How much did you ask for 1013?
4 MR. MUNDIS: I believe we asked for three hours for 1013, and we
5 had initially asked for two hours for 1015. I believe we might need a
6 little bit more time for 1015, but of course we're entirely in the
7 Chamber's hands in that respect.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll see. And the
9 legal officer will tell you by e-mail at the earliest convenience. Very
11 Mr. Seselj.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still need to say that there is
13 nothing about VS-33 and this was announced on Thursday. It is only now
14 that I learn that these two witnesses that you have just mentioned will
15 appear next week and I never heard that before, just so that you know.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At any rate, next week we'll
17 have VS-1013 and VS-1015. That's for certain.
18 Very well. We shall reconvene on Tuesday at 8.30.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day
21 of March, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.