1 Thursday, 20 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning

8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-67-T,

9 the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Today is Thursday, 20th of March, 2008. My greetings to the Prosecution,

12 to Mr. Seselj, and to all the people helping us.

13 As you know, today's hearing will be devoted to video viewings.

14 I suppose that Mr. Seselj has received in his own language from the

15 Prosecution a list of the videotapes that are planned today and are going

16 to be shown by themes.

17 Has this been done, Mr. Mundis?

18 MR. MUNDIS: It has indeed, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Mr. Seselj, have you received this list in your own language?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. The Trial Chamber

23 is now in the hands of the technicians. They're going to show us the

24 video clips, but beforehand can the Prosecution tell us where the

25 videotape comes from, who took the footage or made the video, and what

1 type of video it is.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. First of all, let me say

3 good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom on this, the first

4 day of spring, 2008.

5 The first video has already been admitted. It's P62. This clip

6 which runs for approximately 35 seconds is from the BBC documentary

7 "Death of Yugoslavia - Wars of Independence." The "Death of Yugoslavia"

8 series was produced by the Brook Lapping production company. It first

9 aired on the BBC in the autumn of 1995. That portion from the

10 documentary which includes an interview with Dr. Seselj was conducted by

11 Laura Silber in early March 1995.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I have a question

13 regarding this BBC documentary. We hear about it everywhere. I even

14 know that at the ICJ in the case of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 versus the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro this documentary has also

16 been used. We also know that on several occasions Mr. Seselj challenged

17 this.

18 There's one thing I don't know because I've never seen the whole

19 documentary as such, how long -- how many minutes is it, or how many

20 hours is it, this documentary?

21 MR. MUNDIS: My understanding, Mr. President, is the entire

22 documentary runs approximately six hours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Six hours you say. I see.

24 Very well.

25 Let us start with this snippet.

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Vojislav Seselj: The very roots

3 of the Serbian cause are under threat. Hordes of Ustashas are attacking

4 Serbian villages, Serbian women and children. The Ustasha hordes are

5 trying to finalise the genocide of the Serbian nation."

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: And again for the record, that was P62.

8 The next video on the list again has already been admitted --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One minute, please. So this

10 has already been admitted, hasn't it. At this juncture, Mr. Seselj, do

11 you have any observations? I'm not asking you to testify, I'm just

12 asking you whether you have a short comment so that it be acted.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not testifying about anything,

14 Mr. President. I'd just like to remind you of my two written submissions

15 in which my associates explained the way in which videotapes are

16 manipulated. I think this is too brief an excerpt for anyone to

17 understand anything. I don't have anything against this. It is what I

18 said it is, my sentence, and I would repeat it anywhere and everywhere.

19 I'm not questioning its authenticity but this is just one sentence. I

20 would like to see a broader excerpt so that you can see the context and

21 why this speech was delivered in the first place. I can't see that from

22 this.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can move on to

24 the next clip, Mr. Mundis.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The booth would like to know whether you wish

1 the transcript to be read out. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Show us the second clip,

3 please.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps the Chamber could give some guidance. I

5 heard the interpreter ask if the Chamber would like the interpreters to

6 read out the transcript or if we simply want to have the rolling

7 transcript played with the tapes. Well, certainly the transcript is

8 certainly embedded in the videos but the question apparently from the

9 booth is whether the Chamber would like the interpreters to also speak or

10 read what's contained on the videotapes.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. When we see the footage

12 and when there is a comment by the journalist because more often than not

13 it is either the journalist commenting footage or Mr. Seselj speaking,

14 then the interpreters have to translate into English and into French what

15 Mr. Seselj says in his language, or if this is the journalist, an English

16 speaker who makes a commentary, the interpreters have to translate into

17 Mr. Seselj's language and into French what the journalist is saying.

18 That's it.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 The next video is again already in evidence. This is P59. This

21 runs approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds. This is material, archival

22 material, obtained by the Office of the Prosecution from Croatian TV,

23 HRT. It was provided to the Tribunal or to the Office of the Prosecutor

24 on 20 March 1996 by the War Crimes Commission Zagreb pursuant to a

25 request for assistance of 19 February 1996. Again, this is P59.

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: I am jumping ahead a

3 bit. Are your volunteers fall within 'paramilitary formations.'

4 "Vojislav Seselj: We're not forming any kind of paramilitary

5 formations here in this narrowed down Serbia. We're only gathering

6 volunteers here and sending them where they're needed, to Serbia and

7 Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem and Serbian Krajina. And these

8 volunteers, they're placed under the command of local commanders, the

9 Serbs who live there and carry out orders regarding their activities on

10 the battlefield. Therefore, we are not engaged in establishing any

11 paramilitary formations here and we oppose any kind of paramilitary

12 formations.

13 "Journalist: And are you the commander of all those forces?

14 "Vojislav Seselj: Yes, of those volunteer forces which are

15 there.

16 "Journalist: And have you control over the situation?

17 "Vojislav Seselj: Yes, I have control. So far I've always

18 exercised control over the situation and all our volunteers are very well

19 disciplined. We do not have any problems with them. We prohibit the use

20 of any alcohol and take only those who are capable to fight, who are

21 disciplined, who execute all tasks without objection, who above all act

22 valiantly towards the enemy, and you will not be able to find any Croat

23 who will complain about maltreatment unless he had a weapon in his hands

24 and was attacking Serbian villages. In particular, you will not be able

25 to find a single Croatian woman or child who would complain about

1 mistreatment by Serbs which is not the case with the Croats who are once

2 again making themselves noticeable by perpetrating awful crimes against

3 the population."

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis. Did you want

5 to add anything?

6 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to

8 Mr. Seselj, but I noticed one thing in this clip. Is the translation

9 correct? Because in Serbian it might not be the same word. However,

10 this may have serious consequences.

11 The journalist at some point says, "Are you the commander of all

12 these forces?" And Mr. Seselj answered: "Yes. I am the commander of

13 the volunteer forces which are there."

14 In English this is what is being said. In the French translation

15 that was the same, but I don't know what the journalist said in Serbian.

16 Did the journalist say, "Are you the commander", or, "The man in charge"?

17 Yes, Mr. Seselj, you wanted to say something?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm satisfied

19 because it's direct exculpatory material. As far as I'm concerned, I

20 really did say that I was the commander and that I have control. And you

21 heard that it was said that they were under the command of the local

22 commanders of the Territorial Defence in the operative sense, but I do

23 have general control in the sense that I control discipline, conduct, and

24 everything else. But there's something else that is essential here.

25 When is the take dated? The Prosecutor said it was the second half of

1 1991, so that's my observation, because I find it favourable. Look at me

2 on the tape. You can see white skin under the blue shirt and my face is

3 suntanned because it was the summer, July. I was in the shade somewhere

4 and you can see that I have this tan from the very hot sun. So it

5 couldn't have been the second half of 1991. So the tape speaks for

6 itself and says when this was taped. And this is obviously a time when

7 we're sending direct volunteers to the Serbian villages under attack,

8 under threat, and after the agreement of the JNA of the 1st -- with the

9 JNA of the 1st of September, the JNA decided where our volunteers would

10 be sent. So this is a vital point and two different things.

11 So this cannot be incriminating material at all because it is not

12 incorporated in the indictment. It is the period when the volunteers

13 went illegally, as far as the Serb authorities were concerned, not

14 through the JNA when they crossed the Danube illegally. So the most

15 important point here is to note when this tape was taped, the date, and

16 it can't be the second half of 1991. It was the first part of 1991 and

17 July at the latest. It could be May or June, July as the latest month.

18 Have a look again, you can see my white skin underneath my shirt and

19 suddenly my face is all red and suntanned under the hot sun.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't have time to get a tan.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

23 noticed that there is disagreement as to the date when this footage was

24 taken. In the documents the Prosecution mentioned the second half of

25 1991, so that could be from July to December. It also appears that

1 Mr. Seselj is wearing a summer shirt. He doesn't wear a jumper or a

2 coat. So it could be June, he says, May. It could also be July or

3 August. However, the Prosecution, when -- they could ask the Croatian

4 television to know the exact date. That shouldn't be too difficult to

5 do.

6 Yes, Mr. Seselj?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And another observation. Judging

8 by the way in which the journalist spoke, this isn't Croatian television

9 footage. It's something that came into the possession later on of

10 Croatian television, because I think the journalist is speaking Ekavian,

11 if I was able to follow. So it's not Croatian television as the source

12 or perhaps a Serb journalist who did the work for them. That's not

13 impossible either.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In the French booth

15 the interpreters would like to correct something. Which is the

16 correction?

17 The interpreter in the French booth has just confirmed what

18 Mr. Seselj said, namely that volunteers are placed under the command of

19 local commanders, and they carried out orders by the local commanders.

20 This is what has just been said by the French interpreter. There was a

21 part that was missing before when we viewed the clip.

22 Very well. Let us move on to the third clip.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Actually, Mr. President, before we do that, I simply

24 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber would draw the Chamber's attention

25 to the testimony of Dr. Seselj in the Milosevic case concerning the last

1 video where he made very similar observations and comments to those he

2 has just made concerning P59, and the Milosevic transcripts of 15

3 September 2005, at page 44137, contain the comments of Dr. Seselj

4 concerning the last tape, and again they are more or less consistent with

5 what he has just informed us, and I felt that the Chamber might want to

6 review that with respect to this tape.

7 The next video to be shown is actually two clips. There will be

8 a brief pause between the two of them. This is again in evidence as P30.

9 This is some of the raw footage from the interview of Dr. Seselj for "The

10 Death of Yugoslavia" series. Again, this interview was taped in early

11 March 1995. The Office of the Prosecutor received this material on 24

12 August 2005 from the producer of that series, again Brook Lapping

13 productions. This interview was conducted by the journalist Laura Silber

14 and was part of the footage taken for "The Death of Yugoslavia" series

15 which aired in the BBC in the autumn of 1995. As I've indicated, there

16 are two clips. The first one runs approximately 1 minute 15 seconds; the

17 second one runs approximately 30 seconds and this is P30.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: In 1990, we were not

20 acquiring weapons, we were only enlisting volunteers and occasionally

21 sending them to the front lines if necessary from time to time. In 1991,

22 we began organising volunteers on a larger scale and send them to the

23 already formed fronts, especially Eastern Slavonia. Here in the east of

24 the Republic of Serbian Krajina volunteers proved themselves especially

25 in the battle in Borovo Selo which took place on May the 2nd, 1991, when

1 they defeated the stronger Croatian forces, Croatian police and

2 para-police forces. We were getting weapons from Milosevic's police from

3 the then -- first from the then Minister of Internal Affairs

4 Radmilo Bogdanovic and when he was replaced from his successor. We were

5 also getting old weapons from the warehouse of the Territorial Defence.

6 There were old American Thompson guns which had been withdrawn from use a

7 long time ago. There were also M-48 guns out of date, the so-called

8 Tandzare, what the enemy had stopped using a long time ago, what was kept

9 somewhere in the warehouses of the Territorial Defence. They felt sorry

10 to destroy it all so they just gave them to us, but it was with those

11 weapons that we beat the Croats who were armed with modern weapons."

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, for a number of reasons

16 this tape should be introduced if Laura Silber comes in as a Prosecution

17 witness. This is the '95 tape when there was a great conflict with

18 Milosevic, and you see the basic contradiction. I attacked Milosevic,

19 Radmilo Bogdanovic who was the vice-president of the lower Chamber of the

20 Federal Assembly and later I set out the fact that the arms come from the

21 Territorial Defence and the JNA and not the police. So quite obviously

22 there's some settling of accounts over there in Serbia between us where I

23 use heavy artillery to attack Milosevic and there he is moving towards

24 the Western forces waging a peaceful policy. So I think that I explained

25 this, too, in the Slobodan Milosevic trial and the Prosecutor can remind

1 us of that because he reads the transcripts. I don't read them; I don't

2 need to. So the question of relevance here is twofold. Secondly, this

3 obviously is an excerpt again because the Prosecution has in one of my

4 books that I disclosed in 2003 in a set of 88 [as interpreted] books, the

5 entire interview with Laura Silber. So it's better that they show you

6 that on paper. As far as I know, they've also had it translated into

7 English. Laura Silber worked with me, conducted an interview with me

8 which lasted a total of one hour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I seem to remember that indeed

10 what Mr. Seselj has just said was said in the Milosevic trial. I believe

11 that he said that this was against Mr. Milosevic. So he said that

12 already. He's repeating it today, but you can find this in the Milosevic

13 transcript.

14 Okay. Let's move on to the second clip.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. This is the second clip from P30.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: In May 1992, I began having

18 meetings with Milosevic on a regular basis and back then it was always

19 Milosevic himself who asked for volunteers to be sent out. I mean, one

20 did not have convince us very much. We took this as our duty, our

21 responsibility except when it came to the deployment where they were most

22 needed because they were known as the bravest and the most capable and

23 the most disciplined men."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the same explanation

25 as the previous instance. What is correct here? My meeting with

1 Milosevic is correct that took place in 1992, and having discussed what

2 the Serbs in Bosnia would do when the JNA withdraws, and then on that

3 occasion he said, "Well, you can continue to send volunteers." However,

4 after May 1992, the Prosecution does not have a single shred of evidence

5 about the involvement of the Serb authorities in sending out volunteers

6 because the volunteers which we sent went in civilian clothing and they

7 went almost incognito across the Drina River. So if the Prosecution does

8 have some evidence to show that official Serbia helped this after May

9 1992, then this could be confirmation along with that, because this

10 doesn't show anything in itself, especially since I deny it. This is

11 just my attack on Milosevic to make it more difficult for him to draw

12 closer to the Western powers.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This was already mentioned in

14 Mr. Seselj's testimony in the Milosevic case, which has been tendered

15 into evidence.

16 Let's move on to the next clip, Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape clip

18 is 65 ter number 6029, the old 65 ter number was 2066. This was a

19 videotape received from Natasha Kandic on April 1, 1996. That's the date

20 the Prosecution received this tape. It's a compilation of Serbian

21 television broadcasts, mainly news broadcasts. The date of this material

22 was either 2 or 3 November 1991, according to our records. This is 65

23 ter number 6029. This clip runs approximately 48 seconds.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Announcer 3: Volunteers from

1 Kosovo and Metohija today headed for the battlefield. We have a report

2 from Pristina about that from our colleague Milivoje Mihajlovic.

3 "MM: This is how the first of the volunteers from Kosovo and

4 Metohija going on an organised basis to the battlefield in Croatia were

5 seen off last night not long after midnight. Around 50 Vukovar -- about

6 50 volunteers from this southern province went to -- this volunteers unit

7 was formed in Pristina as early as the beginning of summer and its

8 commanding officer, Dragisa Vukcevic, is the manager of the local hotel

9 company Sloga. Volunteers are well equipped and in the past months their

10 commanding officers have been emphasising their non-affiliation to any

11 party."

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

13 Mr. Seselj, let me say this: We've just discovered this video clip for

14 the first time. I just make a personal observation. There are many

15 volunteers. All of them are -- look tidy, are shaven, and they are in

16 military uniforms with a cap and an insignia on them. So they seem to

17 have been gathered before boarding buses in a hotel. That's what the

18 video clip said. They get on the buses in order to go somewhere else, to

19 another location.

20 This is my personal observation of the video clip.

21 Yes, Mr. Seselj.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm a little worried by that

23 comment of yours, Mr. President. I would like the Prosecution to find at

24 least one volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party who is dirty and unkept,

25 unwashed. With a beard, yes, but not unkept and dirty. Let them find

1 just one if they can.

2 Now, you saw at the end of this tape that the speaker says that

3 it is volunteers outside the party, which -- any party, which means no

4 party is involved. It's the volunteers that have rallied together from

5 Pristina. A unit was established and they were sent to the Sid army

6 barracks for training and they were sent to the front after that.

7 Now, the relevance of all this here is the question that arises.

8 What has that got to do with these proceedings? There were various

9 volunteers throughout the war. They weren't all volunteers of the

10 Serbian Radical Party and here is proof of that. This is proof that they

11 were not and this is exculpatory material, as far as I'm concerned. Once

12 again I'm not against it. I want it to be part of the record to show

13 that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So you don't have any

15 objection. We can give a number to this clip immediately. Can we have a

16 number, Registrar, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The video clip shall be given

18 Exhibit number P00286. Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape bears

21 65 ter 4143. That's 4143. The old 65 ter number was 0298. This is a

22 clip that runs approximately 16 seconds. It's from a documentary

23 produced by the B-92 broadcasting company called "Vukovar, The Final

24 Cut." This documentary was produced in 2006. The Office of the

25 Prosecution received this videotape from the B-92 broadcast service on

1 March 3, 2006.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]Goran Milicevic: The order comes.

4 Let the old people go. The Chetniks are coming. Listen, we looked after

5 you as much as we could. The Chetniks are coming. We do not guarantee."

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remind you of the

7 previous clip. You saw the uniforms and the berets on the heads of the

8 volunteers from Pristina. Did you notice that all of them have berets?

9 They don't have five-star -- five-pointed star and obviously they had

10 been given uniforms by the JNA. What does it mean here when the speaker

11 says the Chetniks are coming? What Chetnik? Were all the Chetniks in

12 the war the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party? If this is the

13 Prosecutor's thesis then they should confirm that. Nothing can be

14 discerned from this clip here.

15 Yesterday you saw Witness Cakalic who spoke about the local

16 Chetniks from Vukovar of whom he recognised some and gave us their names.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it's a video clip

18 that lasts only 16 seconds, so obviously everything goes very fast.

19 I've got two questions. When was this video footage taken, and

20 where, because we see that fire is being opened. There are civilians

21 there. Everything moves very quickly, but I have no idea where it is and

22 when it is. Do you have any idea about this? Do you have any idea about

23 the date and of the place where these -- this footage was taken?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, all the information that we

25 have is that it came from the television company B-92 in Belgrade. We

1 received it on March 3, 2006. It was from a documentary produced by B-92

2 entitled "Vukovar, The Final Cut." That's all the information we have

3 concerning this video clip.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must draw your attention to the

6 fact that B-92 is an American spy organisation which was directly funded

7 from the source fund and from the funds of the Western intelligence

8 services throughout all this time, from its beginning to this very day,

9 and I have mentioned it on a number of my interviews and the Prosecution

10 can find it in a number of my interviews. I publicly accused this TV

11 company of being an American spy, Natasha Kandic and B-92 alike. If you

12 now admit into the file the interpretation of their journalists about

13 something, then you have to know that this is always going to be an

14 interpretation against the Serbian people, against the Serbian Radical

15 Party and against me personally.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, do you challenge

18 the admission of this video clip? Because you're telling us that B-92 is

19 in the pay of the Americans who, if I understand correctly, are against

20 the Serbs. But you did not tell us what your position is. Are you in

21 favour or against the admission this video clip, because this could be a

22 clip in your favour or not in your favour. So what is your position

23 exactly?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this clip cannot

25 either harm me or benefit me. It doesn't say a thing. So why would I

1 object its admission? It doesn't say a thing. I'm not objecting. You

2 do whatever. Why would I object to this footage? It does not threaten

3 me in any way.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to ask

6 the registrar to give us a number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that would be Exhibit number P00287.

8 Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65

11 ter number 6040. It's 6040. The old 65 ter number was 2241. This is

12 video footage dated 20 November 1991. It was film that was used in

13 the -- or for the defence of Slavko Dokmanovic. Based on our

14 information, this was amateur footage coming from the defence of

15 Slavko Dokmanovic and shows members of the Serbian Autonomous District of

16 the SBSW, including Mr. Dokmanovic, Goran Hadzic, and Zeljko Raznjatovic

17 also known as Arkan. This is 65 ter number 6040.

18 [Videotape played]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once again we have a video clip

20 where things are moving extremely quickly. The only observation a

21 reasonable trier of fact can make when watching this video is that we

22 have two things here. We have a great number of soldiers wearing

23 military uniforms or camouflage uniforms.

24 Second thing, we see armoured vehicles next to these soldiers,

25 and we can see a soldier who apparently has been wounded to the hand and

1 is holding a dog. And at the end of the video we see a number of buses

2 stationed there.

3 A few words, that's the description of this video footage. We

4 see a number of individuals. I don't know them. It may be Goran Hadzic,

5 Kameni, Arkan, but I don't know these people.

6 Mr. Seselj.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the soldier with the

8 dog whose arm had been wounded is Arkan, and the blonde soldier towards

9 the end of the footage is Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni.

10 Where is manipulation here? Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as

11 Arkan, and Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni, in Vukovar. This is

12 what it says on the paper and my conclusion is that they were taken

13 together but they're nowhere -- nowhere together. I don't know whether

14 they ever met in their whole life. I only met Arkan on a couple of

15 occasions in my whole life, but I'm not sure that Kameni ever met him.

16 I'm raising the question of relevance here. Why is the Prosecutor's

17 office trying to have this admitted. I'm not objecting. If you are not

18 threatening the overload of your file, then why should I object? I'm not

19 objecting, but I'm raising the issue of relevance here.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have only one question,

22 Mr. Seselj. Was this video footage taken in Vukovar?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judging by everything, it was in

24 Vukovar, but how come Kameni is in the footage? Kameni must have been

25 shot here in Vukovar. Arkan could have been shot somewhere else, because

1 Arkan's units was to the north of Vukovar and Leva Supoderica that Kameni

2 was in command of was in the Sector South. These two units throughout

3 the war did not have any contact. Kameni was under the command of the

4 commander of the 1st Guards Brigade and Arkan was under the command of

5 the commander of the Novi Sad Corps. You could see this from the

6 documents that have already been presented and admitted through some

7 witnesses.

8 I'm not doubting that this was Vukovar. I'm sure -- I suppose

9 that this was Vukovar. I'm just raising the issue of relevance and I'm

10 not objecting to the admission of this document.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that this footage

12 was taken in Vukovar. The only thing you're challenging is that you

13 challenge that Kameni and Arkan would have been there together on the

14 20th of November at 3.42 p.m., because I believe that this footage was

15 shot at 3.42 p.m. It's been recorded on the transcript now.

16 Yes, Mr. Seselj.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot swear that they never met,

18 but this is not what can be deducted from this video, and this is the

19 essence. I -- on the anniversary of the liberation of Vukovar I was

20 there. There were many people there, Major Sljvancanin, Radic. I met

21 Arkan in Beli Manastir on the anniversary of the liberation of Baranja,

22 you know. These meetings are not impossible but this video clip is not

23 the one to prove that there indeed was a meeting between the two.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Registrar could we

25 have a number please.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Exhibit number

2 P00288. Thank you, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, let's move on.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape bears

5 65 ter number 6038, 6038. Old 65 ter number 2240. This videotape which

6 runs 2 minutes 50 seconds is from the British network ITN. The tape was

7 labelled "Vukovar, 19 November 1991." The Prosecution received this

8 videotape from the British network ITN on 4 March 1996, and this contains

9 a report by ITN reporter Michael Nicholson. This is 65 ter number 6038.

10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,

11 there is, it will be done.

12 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.

13 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in

14 a cellar. I did not see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here

15 an ..."

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to start again. We

17 have no sound.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,

20 there is, it will be done.

21 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.

22 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in

23 a cellar. I did not see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here is

24 an ...

25 "Pedja: What television are you from?

1 "Journalist: ITN London.

2 "Pedja: Will they lie about us again?

3 "Journalist: No.

4 "Pedja: Why did they lie about Dubrovnik? That one

5 [unintelligible] shaved down there."

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unidentified soldier: There is,

8 there is, let you be. It will be done.

9 "Unidentified man: I'm not the one who needs it, my brother.

10 Let me only be safe and sound and my child. And I spent three months in

11 a cellar. I didn't see the outside world. From Belgrade to be here as

12 an ...

13 "Pedja: What television are you from?

14 "Journalist: ITN London.

15 "Pedja: Will they lie about us again?

16 "Journalist: No.

17 "Pedja: Why did they lie about Dubrovnik? That one

18 [unintelligible] shaved down there ..."

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We run into some

20 technical problems, but eventually we managed to play this video.

21 A reasonable trier of fact may conclude that in this video we

22 have two parts. In the first part of the video we see a column of the

23 people who are walking down the main street, apparently. There is music

24 playing in the background. We see a soldier kissing a child. The people

25 we see there, the civilians, men, women, and children, do not seem to be

1 frightened at all.

2 The first question, therefore, is to know whether these people

3 are civilian or Serb -- Croatian or Serb civilians.

4 And in the second part of this video, the clip that was meant to

5 be shown to us, apparently, we see people climbing out of their cellars.

6 Apparently they spent several days, even several weeks in the cellars,

7 and we could believe and conclude that this happens just shortly after

8 the fighting.

9 My fellow Judge wants to add something.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to ask whether the

11 house we see in the first part of the footage is the headquarters of the

12 volunteers. I'm talking about the house with the black flag.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm not in a position to comment on

14 that, and I believe that perhaps the best thing to do would be to ask

15 some of the subsequent witnesses who might be in a position to identify

16 that. I would be hesitant to do so.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's -- it's -- sorry. I'm asking because it is

18 indicated in the list that there is a footage of the Chetniks'

19 headquarters, and I'm just wondering what that is.

20 MR. MUNDIS: With a question mark, I believe, as well indicating

21 that there's some uncertainty as to that point.

22 I would expect that we will have witnesses that this tape could

23 be shown to who would be in a position to identify that house or that

24 building.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Seselj, your

1 comments?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, obviously this could

3 not have been the 19th of November. This could only be the 18th of

4 November. If you noticed, you could still hear shooting at the beginning

5 of the footage. On the day when the civilians came out of the shelters

6 is the day when Vukovar was liberated, on the 18th. There is no criteria

7 according to which you may distinguish the Serb civilians from the Croat

8 civilians. I suppose that the majority must have been Croats but they

9 came out of the shelters together.

10 And one more thing, there's no criteria according to which the

11 Prosecutor can make a distinction between a JNA soldier and a volunteer.

12 It may be done with the Territorial Defence, because with the Territorial

13 Defence the uniforms were incomplete. The parts were civilian, parts

14 were military because they did not have uniform storages from which they

15 could dress themselves. Volunteers, on the other hand, were all wearing

16 complete uniforms. They had come in them in -- from Serbia, and they

17 are -- they put the uniforms on in the barracks in Bubanj Potok.

18 And as for the Chetnik headquarters, this is pure manipulation.

19 The Prosecutor is duty-bound to tell you here based on which could he

20 write in the paper that this was a footage of Chetniks headquarters.

21 What is the indicia? What is the proof? Where does this come from? He

22 first put it on paper and then they're going to look for witnesses that

23 may be able to confirm this. There was no headquarters of Chetniks

24 there. There was no Chetnik headquarters in Vukovar up to the moment

25 that Vukovar was liberated and there was no Chetnik organisation together

1 with the existing JNA. There is an identification with a majority of

2 volunteers in the Territorial Defence with the Chetnik Movement, because

3 this is a good and nice Serbian tradition that the Communists tried to

4 eradicate.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Your comments are on the

6 record.

7 There's something I wanted to say earlier on. I'm going to say

8 it now. Do we know whether these people are Serb or Croatian civilians?

9 In the second part of the video, not in the first part. In the second

10 part we see an individual leaving a house, and he says that he's been

11 there for quite some time, and then he adds the words "from Belgrade."

12 "From Belgrade." We might infer from that that this individual before

13 being there was in Belgrade. If you like, we can show this again. We

14 heard him say "from Belgrade."

15 Is it a Croat who used to live in Belgrade and who came there or

16 is it a Serb? But this person spontaneously said "of Belgrade."

17 The comments of Mr. Seselj have been recorded on the transcript

18 are, and there's the issue here of the headquarters of the volunteers

19 possibly. The only thing we can say is that we see a building with a

20 flag. That's the only information we can draw from the video.

21 Let's proceed, Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would ask that that tape be admitted

23 into evidence.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That will be Exhibit number

1 P00289. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the next clip to be shown has already

3 been admitted into evidence. This is P20. This is a documentary film

4 produced by the foundation The Right To Pictures And Words. This film or

5 this clip from the documentary entitled "Vukovar 1991, Images And Words

6 Of Hate." This clip runs approximately 35 seconds and again has already

7 been admitted into evidence as P20.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Here we are standing on

10 the Vuka River bridge. The Vuka River gave the name to this town

11 Vukovar. The Croats call it Stalingrad.

12 "Pedja: No way, man, no. Stalingrad, only in their stories can

13 they call it Stalingrad. Where the army and the Serbian volunteers tread

14 nothing can help them. They can call it what they want. Freedom has

15 come and this freedom will the not be sold easy to anyone anymore.

16 "Reporter: Are you a volunteer or are you from around here.

17 "Pedja: I'm volunteer from Sombor, but I intend settle down here

18 and live in this pretty town. Even demolished like this it's still

19 pretty. Even demolished it's still pretty to me, by the way. I'm Pedja

20 from Sombor."

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, just the question of

23 relevance. It's obviously a volunteer from Sombor. That's what it's

24 about. After Vukovar fell or prior to the fall and the liberation and he

25 expresses the desire to stay on and live in Vukovar. There were a number

1 of people like that. I know several. Maybe there were more than several

2 who stayed on and lived in Vukovar after the war. Some got married

3 there. They met young women there and married them. But once again the

4 question of relevance.

5 Now, I didn't hear the Prosecutor properly. This footage was

6 done by a foundation the right to freedom and speech, something like

7 that. I've never heard of a foundation with that name.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where does this tape come from?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Well, again, we received this from B-92 on the 8th

10 of May, 2001, and according to the information provided to us, it was a

11 documentary film produced by the foundation, which is called The Right To

12 Pictures And Words. So B-92 provided this to us. It's a documentary

13 produced by the Right To Pictures And Words Foundation.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to see the picture

15 of the volunteer again, because on his cap he has an insignia which is

16 very visible. Could we see this picture again, the picture of the

17 volunteer.

18 My colleague tells me that he has, too, so all the more reason to

19 see this again.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Here we are standing on

22 the Vuka River bridge, the Vuka River gave the name to its town Vukovar.

23 The Croats call it Stalingrad.

24 "Pedja: What do you mean Stalingrad? Only in their stories can

25 they call it Stalingrad. Where the army and the Serbian volunteers tread

1 nothing can help them. They can call it what they want."

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague tells me that one

3 can see two insignia. The first one which is in direct line with his

4 nose but you also see something which is cross-shaped. He wears a cap

5 with an insignia on it.

6 If there are no further observations, Mr. Seselj.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand where you see

8 the other badge on the level of the nose. The insignia on the beret is

9 the same as it is on the berets of the volunteers from Pristina. Now

10 what does it contain. It's a cockade with the old traditional Serbian

11 coat of arms, the laurel leaf symbol. So there's no skull and bone

12 insignia or anything else and it's the same as the cockade of the

13 volunteers you saw from Pristina. It's exactly the same. You can

14 compare the footage.

15 Now, this other sign there, I didn't see that. I don't know what

16 you're referring to. You said at the level of the nose? What?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can see that alongside it --

18 [Videotape played]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. Stop there. As you can

20 see, next to the insignia, on the left-hand side of the insignia you see

21 something which is cross shaped.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's -- that seems to me to

23 be a beret, a foreign -- a foreign manufacture. There was something on

24 the beret, and the trace remained. It's not something that's on the

25 beret now. It was something that was on the beret before the cockade

1 with the Serb insignia was placed. You can see the imprint of a cross.

2 Perhaps it's a sports organisation or something. It's difficult to say

3 what. But what the soldier wanted to place on his beret was the

4 traditional Serbian cockade.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video had

6 already been admitted under the number P20.

7 Let's move on to the next pictures, please.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65

9 ter number 6036. The old number was 0732. This is a clip which runs

10 approximately 30 seconds. This tape was received by Natasha Kandic on

11 the 1st of April, 1996. Again, it is a compilation of Serb -- Serbian

12 television news broadcasts. The date that accompanied this material when

13 it was logged into the OTP system was 16, 17 November 1991.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I have a question

15 for you. You told us on several occasions that Natasha Kandic had sent

16 you the videos. Does this mean that the OTP receives any document, any

17 video sent by anyone or do you select the material you receive and only

18 keep what you feel is important, and you set aside some of the things

19 that are being sent to you?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, obviously the Office of the

21 Prosecutor receives information, material, documents, videos, et cetera,

22 from a wide range of sources. Quite often witnesses have videotapes.

23 They hand them over.

24 If the videotape or any other material that anyone submits

25 purports to be authentic and relevant to any ongoing investigation, of

1 course the investigators will -- will take that material and enter it

2 into the evidence pipeline. It would be hard to imagine an investigator

3 who when someone offers him or her relevant material would turn that

4 away. So clearly we do receive material from a wide range of sources.

5 That does not necessarily mean that everything that we receive would

6 eventually be tendered into a court proceeding, but certainly unless

7 there's some reason to doubt that the material relates to the conflict in

8 the former Yugoslavia, we would certainly take that material and enter it

9 into the evidence pipeline.

10 With respect to Ms. Kandic, of course, we receive material from a

11 large number of NGOs, both small NGOs as well as larger ones that the

12 general public is aware of. So there's a wide range of NGOs across

13 entire spectrums of various interests that have provided the Office of

14 the Prosecutor with evidentiary material.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question of a

16 technical nature to put to you, Mr. Mundis. The OTP receives

17 information, as you've just told us, of any kind, amongst others videos

18 which you are able to identify, and you identify these as coming from

19 various media sources abroad. But what I would like to know, at the OTP

20 do you have any technicians, people of course who are of a great quality

21 and who are capable based on material like videos to determine whether

22 the video has been tampered with, has been edited? Did you have experts

23 or technical engineers, highly qualified technical engineers who would be

24 capable on the basis of the videos to detect any form of tampering or

25 that somebody had input items from outside or data from outside and

1 integrate it into the video.

2 MR. MUNDIS: The short answer to that question is no. When

3 material -- when we have reason to believe that material might have been

4 tampered with or it becomes challenged in court cases, the material is

5 sent to outside forensic laboratories for analysis.

6 As Your Honours will probably appreciate and can understand,

7 quite often when we receive tapes we are not receiving the original tape.

8 That is, we are receiving something that perhaps someone had videotaped

9 at home off of a television newscast or it's a copy of a copy of a tape

10 that someone produces or provides to us and as a result of that in many,

11 but not all, but in many instances it is not possible forensically to

12 determine if the original tape had in any way been altered because what

13 the expert's dealing with is a copy of a copy and not the original tape

14 itself. So quite often there are -- there are indicia that it's simply

15 inconclusive. A forensic expert will review this material and it will be

16 inconclusive as to whether there was any tampering simply because

17 forensic experts will, as a general rule, require the original tape in

18 order to make that kind of determination as to whether there was any

19 tampering at the source.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Judges, that it was -- it

22 is with good reason that the Prosecution has full trust -- places full

23 trust in Natasha Kandic, because she is the main instructor of the false

24 witnesses for The Hague in Belgrade. So they have every reason to

25 believe her. Of all the Serb spies in the American service,

1 Natasha Kandic occupies the number one position. So it's quite clear to

2 me why the Prosecution refers to her. She was in the public gallery a

3 few days ago and I almost burst out laughing out loud. She controlled

4 witness Stoparic, and then we have a tape of her message. So one should

5 bear all that mind.

6 So I quite understand why the Prosecution places great trust in

7 Natasha Kandic. They have to do so. As far as they're concerned, she's

8 a great authority for them.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are responsible for

10 your own words. You are saying that Mrs. Natasha Kandic instrumentalised

11 false witnesses. You are saying that she works for services.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you began speaking just now

13 I've heard nothing through the headphones.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. I was saying,

15 Mr. Seselj, that what you have said about Mrs. Natasha Kandic is on your

16 own responsibility. You said that she instrumentalised false witnesses.

17 You are saying that she works for the American intelligence services.

18 You are the one to say that. It's for you to demonstrate the

19 truthfulness of what you are saying but the issue doesn't hinge on that

20 as far as we're concerned. What we are interested in is to know whether

21 there's any form of technical control on the videos. The Prosecutor has

22 told us that this is just about impossible because they do not have the

23 original copies and on the original videos and it's very difficult to do

24 this kind of work on a video which is not an original video.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I think I would also like to

1 emphasise this: Mr. Seselj should avoid making any comments about any

2 individuals, please.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

4 Can you show us the next video, please, 6036.

5 MR. MUNDIS: And at this point, the Prosecution will simply

6 reserve any possible responses to attacks by Dr. Seselj on Ms. Kandic,

7 but we may in the future need to return to that issue.

8 The next videotape as I've indicated bears 65 ter number 6036.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Novinar: Here on the front lines

11 on Trpinja road we also met soldiers ...

12 "Zivkovic: Zivkovic Vojislav, a Seselj volunteer.

13 "Draganic: Draganic Ranko, a volunteer from Indija.

14 "Novinar: When did you arrive and since when have you been

15 fighting here at the front lines.

16 "Zivkovic: Well, I myself came on the 15th of June and since

17 then I've been at the front lines wherever needed in Dalj, in Salvas, and

18 in Tenja, and here.

19 "Reporter: Do they have a chance, the Ustashas?

20 "Draganic: None. A bit longer and they're ours.

21 "Reporter: You came here and you said you've been fighting since

22 June. Tell us, are you under the command of the army or are you here as

23 volunteers, in which manner are you here on the fighting lines.

24 "Zivkovic: We're volunteers in cooperation with the army. We

25 get all the orders from the army. We're not fighting on our own because

1 the army is the one whom we are fighting with, their command.

2 "Reporter: So that means you're not representing the goals of

3 the party here but the orders and goals of the Yugoslav People's Army and

4 the entire Serbian people.

5 "Zivkovic: Exactly. We are reluctant to speak about being

6 Seselj's men because now is not the time to talk about that. There will

7 be time for that when this is over. Then when we can talk, but right now

8 we're fighting for Serbian land."

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video which is

10 an interview of a -- of a volunteer, the volunteer answers a question put

11 by the journalist purportedly of Novi Sad. He says that he's a volunteer

12 and that they're acting jointly with the army. He is saying, "We are

13 getting our orders from the army." It's their command. This is what

14 this volunteer says.

15 Let me add that we can see this volunteer. He is wearing an

16 armband on his left arm and something which looks like an insignia on his

17 chest, which we could see again perhaps.

18 So, Mr. Seselj, your comments.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am very pleased

20 that you had an opportunity to see real Seselj volunteers and so that you

21 can establish that they're -- that they look decent, that they have their

22 uniforms on, and that you don't ascribe to Seselj volunteers everybody

23 who is dirty, unkept, drunk, under the influence of drugs or who knows

24 what else.

25 This is an example of what the volunteers of the Serbian Radical

1 Party looked like. The bands around their arms are ones which certain

2 units had in order to be able to distinguish each other in an action.

3 And you can ask military experts. Sometimes you put a band on an

4 epaulette and other times around the arm. That's so that they can

5 distinguish themselves and avoid sort of friendly fire because sometimes

6 the other side wearing Yugoslav Army uniforms too.

7 But what I would like to say here is something else. They are

8 two volunteers in Vukovar and there was a description of where they went

9 into action, Dalj, Salvas, and so on. Tenja is a suburb of Osijek. So

10 bear that in mind or perhaps this was at the Trpinjska road. That's not

11 impossible, too. So that was to the north towards Vukovar but mostly

12 they held the line towards Osijek, if you have an idea of the

13 configuration. Osijek is at the confluence of the Drava and Danube

14 rivers but it's another municipality.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I have

16 understood you correctly you do not object to the tendering into evidence

17 of this video. Let's have a number, please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am grateful to the Prosecution

19 for offering up this video footage and for tendering it into evidence.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An exhibit number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The next -- the video clip

22 that was just shown shall be given Exhibit number P00290. Thank you,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the break we shall see

25 another video.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next videotape or

2 clip is a second clip, actually, from the same 65 ter number, that is 65

3 ter number 6036. The source is the same as indicated for the last clip.

4 This clip runs about two and a half minutes and contains information from

5 the Novi Sad television daily news from 16/17 November 1991 and contains

6 an interview with Major Sljvancanin.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] J: Today the units of the

9 Yugoslav People's Army have taken control of the Vukovar city centre.

10 Apart from that, the fighting has been continued against the forces, the

11 most hardened Ustasha forces still holding some check-points or

12 strongholds. Major, I would like to ask you briefly to describe for us

13 today's combat activities here in this area.

14 "VS: Well, all the units in the territory of Vukovar fight under

15 the unified command of the south operation groups and under the command

16 of the Yugoslav People's Army which is very important because volunteers

17 often say you never mention us and then I think we're all the same kind

18 and we fight under the same command for the same goals and they all

19 reported to us. We accept everyone who ever comes, every volunteer and

20 every well-meaning person. We equip them right away, prepare them for

21 combat, include them in the units of the JNA. They carry out combat

22 activities side by side with other soldiers. The enemy, that is the

23 Ustashas, are completely defeated. We control the whole situation in

24 Vukovar. There are only a couple more streets left where the most

25 hardened Ustashas are hiding and who at this moment offered to surrender

1 to us and ask about the conditions of their surrender. We gave them a

2 promise but sometimes someone gets to the station possibly even one of

3 them one who bothers them who say they are Chetniks there, they would be

4 slaughtered and else which disturbs them. Afterwards their leaders who

5 have been in contact with them under the name of Jastreb and under other

6 names no longer call them, they were absolutely quiet today. It is only

7 a question of an hour or a day when a few of them who remain, the most

8 hardened Ustashas will come out and surrender. Some groups have already

9 surrendered last night and today we have saved a large number of

10 civilians. Our soldiers and volunteers, call them as you like, have also

11 done some heroic deeds, especially the ones from Vukovar who know the

12 city go into basements at night and save people who are still in those

13 basements and who are still frightened and who fear the Guards' members

14 and Ustashas would come and slaughter them. And then when they explain

15 the whole situation to them, they gladly accept crossing over the

16 Yugoslav People's Army side and join our lines, our ranks and be given

17 all the help they need. As you have seen, we are successful in doing

18 this. We are saving a lot of innocent people who have been imprisoned in

19 the basement so I think we're going to clear the remaining small number

20 of streets during the day. We would like, and it is our goal, to make

21 Vukovar a free city for all citizens and all people of goodwill. We wish

22 to save our soldiers and our combatants and we don't want to push it now

23 at the very end in order to achieve all our objectives. It is important

24 to say the people can conquer all that and achieve the goal we set

25 ourselves and we're probably going to make it; not probably but for sure.

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it was too fast for

2 them to be able to follow the tape and read.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question to put to

4 Mr. Mundis, first of all: Was this video admitted in what was called the

5 Vukovar 3 trial?

6 MR. MUNDIS: We would need to check our records on that,

7 Mr. President. Perhaps if Dr. Seselj has any comments, I can come back

8 to you in just a moment on that point.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Second question,

10 the interview of Mr. Sljivancanin addresses the question of the

11 volunteers and he says on several occasions that these people are

12 fighting side by side. These are the words he uses. Under the orders of

13 the JNA, this is what he says. As far as he is concerned, these

14 volunteers are placed under the command of the JNA. Right at the

15 beginning of the report it -- he also seems to indicate that it is the

16 army of Yugoslavia which is present.

17 So, Mr. Seselj, your comments on this footage, please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree that this videotape should

19 be admitted but I have to express -- to say I'm sorry that it was cut off

20 when it seemed to be the most interesting. After the statement of the

21 then Major Sljvancanin and now colonel, we see a mass of soldiers and

22 that's what I was most interested in seeing, whereas they cut it off

23 there. So that's the problem with these very, very brief excerpts,

24 because you could see a large group of soldiers towards the end and it

25 would have been very interesting to see and if the Prosecution can

1 continue the footage for some 10 to 15 seconds and not to exert

2 censorship of the portion of the tape that might be the most relevant.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we give this an exhibit

4 number, could you tell us whether this video has already been admitted in

5 the Radic, Sljvancanin and Mrksic trial, please.

6 MR. MUNDIS: It was not admitted in that trial according to our

7 records, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we shall admit it now.

9 Can we have an exhibit number, please, registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The next exhibit number shall

11 be P00291. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you instruct

13 the Prosecutor to state his views. Was this footage tendered in the

14 other trial, or did they not tender it at all? Was it tendered and

15 rejected by the Trial Chamber there or was it or not? That would be an

16 interesting point.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is strange, because that was

18 exactly the question that came to mind.

19 Mr. Mundis, as far as you know, this video which has to do with

20 one of the accused in the Vukovar trial, had it been adduced or not? Had

21 it not been admitted? Had it been adduced by the Prosecution or the

22 Defence or what happened?

23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps noting the time, we could

24 take our recess at this point in time and I will endeavour to provide an

25 answer to that question once we recommence.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the break I would like

2 to read out an oral decision which is important. I shall read it in

3 closed session, because it is both urgent and important.

4 Registrar, can we move into closed session, please.

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to

13 break for 20 minutes.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I believe we have

17 now reached the video clip bearing number 6025.

18 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President. And this tape was

19 received by the Office of the Prosecutor on 19 September 2003. This

20 apparently also comes from TV Novi Sad, and this clip --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. I have an objection.

22 Mr. Mundis promised before the break to explain to us whether the

23 previous clip was tendered in the Mrksic, Sljvancanin, Radic case and

24 rejected by the Chamber or whether it was not tendered by the Prosecution

25 at all.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I was precisely about to

2 ask him that, but he's first going to finish the presentation of this

3 video clip.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Let me -- let me just address that point before this

5 tape, since it's come up.

6 Mr. Mussemeyer is attempting to locate that information

7 definitively. We on some occasions have the same videotape under

8 different numbers because we received it from different sources, and so

9 what we're trying to determine is that -- a definitive answer whether

10 that tape was tendered into evidence or not, and if it was tendered, by

11 whom and what was the decision of the Vukovar 3 Trial Chamber, because

12 clearly the numbered version that we had was not admitted in that case.

13 So I would expect we would have an answer to that question as soon as

14 Mr. Mussemeyer returns to the courtroom. So the answer will come in the

15 physical presence of Mr. Mussemeyer returning to the courtroom. So I

16 don't have any information on that point until my colleague returns. So

17 I would suggest that we just continue. I will get the answer. If I

18 don't have the answer today, I will have the answer on Tuesday of next

19 week.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. MUNDIS: So again for the record this is 65 ter number 6025.

22 The old number was -- the old 65 ter number was 0729. This clip runs

23 approximately one minute.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] [No interpretation].

1 Reporter: And that we have to fight now in the present time to

2 create a new country and a new land where people are going to recognise

3 us, respect us, love us, and where we shall serve the interests of the

4 people. "

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, apparently there was a

6 problem. There was no interpretation into English. Is that so? So

7 we'll have to start again. [In English] Start again.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Attitude, dignity,

10 courage.

11 "Sljivancanin: All the soldiers of Operations Group South,

12 especially those of the Guards Brigade, all the volunteers, then the

13 units of the Vukovar Territorial Defence, the Leva Supoderica detachment

14 that participated side by side with our soldiers and were under the

15 single command of the Yugoslav People's Army acted with true heroism and

16 valour. We would not have been able to carry out this task without these

17 volunteers. The city of Vukovar Territorial Defence detachment in which,

18 unfortunately, there were fewer than we expected but the few that were

19 there were the right ones and they were courageous and they helped and

20 they helped us a lot. And that's why I still definitely think and I keep

21 pointing out that we really are the Yugoslav People's Army, that we are

22 the people's army, that we cannot do without the people and that we have

23 to fight now to create a new country and a new land where people are

24 going to recognise us, respect, us, love us, and where we shall serve of

25 the interests of the people."

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the officer, Sljvancanin,

2 says two things that struck me. First, he recalled that this operation

3 was conducted under the authority of the South Operational Group. The

4 second thing that he pointed out relating to the volunteers, he said that

5 everybody acted under the unified command or the single command of the

6 JNA. That's what he said.

7 Your comments, Mr. Seselj, and then we'll hear the Prosecutor --

8 or let's start with the Prosecutor, since Mr. Mussemeyer is back in the

9 courtroom.

10 The previous video clip and this one, were they admitted in the

11 Vukovar trial or not, or were they not presented to be adduced into

12 evidence, or was the tendering sought and rejected?

13 MR. MUNDIS: With respect to the tape that was shown prior to the

14 break which was admitted in this case as P291, that interview of

15 Major Sljvancanin was not tendered into evidence and consequently,

16 obviously, was not admitted in that case.

17 I will make a similar inquiry with respect to the clip we've just

18 looked at, 6025.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In connection with the previous

21 clip, I think it's very important, Judges, sirs, to point out that this

22 is evidently exculpatory material for Mr. Sljvancanin and for all the

23 accused in the case, Mrksic and Radic also. It's exculpatory for me

24 also. It's very important to say that the OTP had this at their disposal

25 but they did not tender it in the case where the Vukovar 3 were tried.

1 It is evident from this that before the liberation of Vukovar

2 nobody had the intention of shooting prisoners. He says for them to

3 surrender, for everything to be peaceful, and that is my case, that the

4 order to shoot the prisoners came after the fall of Vukovar.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry for interrupting

6 you, Mr. Seselj, but as you know, you are not presently testifying. We

7 only ask comments, technical comments from you regarding the videotape.

8 Don't go to the merits, which is what you're presently doing in two ways,

9 because you now speak about the other case, but that other case does not

10 concern you. It is for the others to raise such issues if this is indeed

11 in their interest.

12 Now, you say it's exculpatory. Well, that's what you say, but

13 you will have an opportunity to prove this through your own witnesses and

14 when you testify in person. Therefore, at this stage we cannot make any

15 legal findings because you're not testifying. You are merely making

16 comments, technical comments at that, on a tape which we have just been

17 viewing. And you can say, just as I do, that Mr. Sljvancanin is saying

18 that volunteers operated under the single command without any further

19 comment.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm interested in

21 principle in all the cases before this Tribunal. They all concern me,

22 especially those that touch on my case, because I'm accused of

23 participating in a joint criminal enterprise. That's the first point.

24 The second point is the following: It's an international scandal

25 that the previous clip was not shown in the Mrksic, Radic, Sljvancanin

1 case, an international scandal.

2 And my third point and last one is that I hope the OTP is not

3 going to ask me for a fee because they offered -- or, rather, they

4 tendered these clips which are very important to my case.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you do not oppose the

6 admission of this video clip number 6025. I want a number,

7 Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P00292.

9 Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P292. Very well. Next clip,

11 Mr. Mundis. It is the 4143, if I'm not mistaken.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely correct, Mr. President. The next tape

13 bears 65 ter number 4143. The old 65 ter number was 0298. Again, the

14 source of this was the B-92 documentary "Vukovar, the Final Cut." This

15 documentary was produced by B-92 in 2006 and was received by the Office

16 of the Prosecutor on the 3rd of March, 2006. This clip runs 30 seconds.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Blazevic: In a bullet-proof vest

19 with a beard. These are all butchers and murderers. This was all

20 staged. The person from the television came to tell him what to do.

21 This was filmed seven times.

22 "Unknown man: I was in the cellar all the time.

23 "Journalist: Is it true what they're saying?

24 "Milivojevic: These are murderers and butchers. Lie down.

25 There's nothing more to discuss.

1 "Blazevic: I wanted to be filmed because it would be evidence

2 that I was still alive."

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Could it be shown

4 again because it was very fast. In the beginning one has the impression

5 that there are two pictures next to one another. It's not very long.

6 Maybe we can see it again.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Blazevic: The tall guy in the

9 bullet-proof vest with the helmet who shouted, 'Get down, those are

10 murderers and butchers.' This was part of the scenario. The television

11 director talked to him. It was shot seven times. He told him what to

12 say. This guy didn't know how to repeat what he said and then he told

13 him, 'Go and say whatever you want.'

14 "Unknown man: I haven't been anywhere. I haven't been anywhere.

15 I was in the basement the whole time. I haven't been anywhere.

16 "Journalist: Is it true what they're saying?

17 "Milivojevic: That's a lie. A downright lie. Those are

18 murderers and butchers. Get down. Get down for Christ's sake. We don't

19 have anything to talk to you about.

20 "Blazevic: I wanted that television crew to film me because if

21 they did film me, well, others would then see that I was alive."

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's very difficult to

23 understand this video clip. However, at one point in time we hear the

24 name of Topola being mentioned.

25 Yes, Mr. Seselj?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Seselj, please.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Believe me or not, Judges, sirs, I

3 have never seen Topola in my life. Here this soldier is introduced as

4 Topola, but let me draw your attention to one point. He had white belts

5 on both sides and this means that he belonged to the military police. He

6 had white straps and white straps were worn exclusively by the military

7 police and it was the military police that was in charge of guarding the

8 prisoners. The identity of this man has to be established. I don't know

9 who he is. Evidently this is about prisoners whom somebody is guarding

10 and he told them to lie down while he was guarding them. If there's only

11 one man guarding them, it's easier for him to guard them while they're

12 lying down otherwise one of them might escape. We don't see any arrests

13 being made here. We don't see any torture but we hear what the soldier

14 says that the people who have been taken prisoner are murderers and

15 butchers.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has discussed

18 the issue. It is hard to understand this video clip. Therefore, the

19 Trial Chamber will ask the registrar to give us a MFI number, because we

20 have nothing to admit this document definitively. So this can be

21 submitted again by one or the other party if they so wish. So a MFI

22 number, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will be P00293, marked

24 for identification. Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So we have finished

1 the first chapter. We now can move on to the second theme, can't we.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Indeed, Mr. President. The second theme which the

3 Prosecution short-handedly indicated as Vojislav Seselj and his Vojvodas

4 on the front lines. The first clip is P16 marked for identification.

5 This tape was received by the Croatian government in response to a

6 request for assistance from the Office of the Prosecutor. It was

7 received by the Office of the Prosecutor on 30 March 2004. The tape that

8 we received was a compilation of various reports. The date of this

9 broadcast is indicated on the tape as being July -- or, sorry, 7 November

10 1991. That's 7 November 1991. And again, I believe the source of this

11 tape, although it came from the Croatian government, was television

12 Novi Sad, and this was P16, marked for identification.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: Those are our volunteers who

15 make part of the Territorial Defence. We haven't got any units of our

16 own here. All the people here are our people. All the units here are

17 our units, and of course those who have come here voluntarily to fight.

18 They know why they are here and what they're fighting for and they don't

19 need to be persuaded to fight because they themselves wanted to do so and

20 therefore one should not be surprised by their courage.

21 "J: How significant is the liberation of Vukovar for Serbia and

22 the Serbian people?

23 "VS: It's of exceptional significance, exceptional significance.

24 This is the most powerful Ustasha stronghold. Once Vukovar is taken, the

25 Ustasha have no chance of saving either Osijek or Vinkovci. There is

1 nothing to stop our forces. Vukovar is the key line that needs to be

2 broken through, that needs to be captured and then there will be nothing

3 the Ustasha can do. The Ustashas know that if Vukovar falls here, if

4 Slunj falls in the Serbian Krajina, then Tudjman's Ustasha regime in

5 Zagreb will fall too. And that is why this battle here is a decisive

6 one."

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll play the clip again

8 because right from the beginning -- at the beginning, rather, there was

9 an insignia which might be relevant. So can we have the clip again. And

10 once we say -- when we say stop, please stop the tape.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: These are our own volunteers

13 who are part of the Territorial Defence."

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Yes. I noticed this insignia on

15 the beret of the individual standing on the right of the picture. We've

16 seen that insignia before. Unless I'm mistaken, it's an insignia we can

17 also find on the helmet worn by Mr. Seselj during the interview.

18 Therefore, my question is what is the meaning of this insignia?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We should maybe play it again,

20 because the insignia is hidden by the logo of the Tribunal. So we'll

21 play it again and say stop and then you stop immediately.

22 [Videotape played]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. The individual who is

24 standing to the right of the picture has a beret with a cross-shaped

25 insignia. It's the same cross we saw on the previous beret. And then

1 Mr. Seselj told us it was probably a foreign beret with an insignia

2 added. But here we see it very clearly. We see the cross very clearly

3 on this beret. It's the same as the one we saw earlier on on the other

4 beret.

5 Mr. Seselj will probably have something to say about this. Let

6 me remind you that this exhibit has already received a MFI number, P16.

7 Mr. Seselj, your comments.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First I have to tell you that the

10 Yugoslav People's Army did not have such berets before 1990, except for

11 the parachute units, but the OTP should have at their disposal a large

12 number of clips of the Territorial Defence from the western part of the

13 Serbian Krajina, the Knin Krajina. Their members wore such a coat of

14 arms. It's a cross with four Cyrillic letters S, but they turned them

15 round so they were not facing away from the cross but towards the cross,

16 because they represent four letters S which stands for only -- only

17 harmony or brotherhood will save the Serbs.

18 We should see what else there is apart from the cross on this

19 insignia. I don't think this was common in Vukovar. I think only one or

20 two men had such insignia in Vukovar. Most of them wore the old Serbian

21 coats of arms, the so-called cockades and these were made of metal. On

22 my helmet you couldn't see that. You could see traces of the red

23 five-pointed star which I scraped off with a bayonet but I was unable to

24 scrape it off completely and you can see that on the helmet.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Irrespective of all

1 this, do you have any other comments about the rest of the video?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just draw your attention to

3 the following: All the volunteers around me are very neat and tidy with

4 full military uniforms on and helmets on. I think I should draw your

5 attention to that.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. The Trial Chamber has

8 decided that this exhibit that bore the MFI number P16 is now going to be

9 P16 without MFI.

10 Let's move on to the following video clip.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I should also indicate,

12 perhaps I should have done this earlier, if -- in light of the reference

13 Your Honour just made to the ICTY logo, if you toggle to the e-court

14 button on your monitors the videos will be shown without the ICTY logo

15 and the image is a little bit clearer, actually, than if you were to

16 toggle to the video button on the switch. So the e-court, for the

17 benefit of everyone in here, the e-court channel will give you the best

18 imagery of the videos.

19 The next video is -- has already been admitted into evidence

20 under numbers P60 and P185. This tape was received from the Croatian

21 government on 31 July 2001, apparently was recorded by TV Benkovac, and

22 there are references on this tape to the date being 23 November 1991.

23 This is P60 and P185.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] N: During the inspection of

1 combat positions, Captain Dragan came along. Let's see what looked like

2 when they met.

3 "CD: What joint combat? We sent a dispatch to the president.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is unable to distinguish any

5 words in the sound.

6 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] JNAO: He's not here. No. No.

7 No. He went over there. He's -- Uzelac, where is the guy?

8 "VS: Captain Dragan objected because he was against the

9 Chetniks.

10 "UM: Mr. President, come over to this side a little bit.

11 Commander, come here. We won't argue. We won't argue. We want to

12 create the Serb army.

13 "CD: I've just come to say hello. I'm heading for Belgrade.

14 "CD: But you agree that I wouldn't --

15 "CD: Babic is a hero. I'm just a workout instructor.

16 "VS: You got involved in politics, man, and you shouldn't have.

17 If the conflict occurred --

18 "CD: Sir, but I'm telling the truth and must I not say what I

19 think the truth is?

20 "VS: No, you must not until the war is over because if this

21 truth is useful in wartime, you mustn't say it.

22 "VS: There are other battlefields for Captain Dragan in

23 Western Slavonia. He came here and he's done a lot here.

24 "CD: No, you have Milan Babic here. He's your hero.

25 "VS: Today you're turning the army against the Krajina prime

1 minister. He's the prime minister, no matter what he's like.

2 "CD: He's a coward, a coward, a traitor who broke up our unit,

3 who broke up Knin.

4 "VS: You're the one who's breaking it up. You're breaking the

5 battle field right here and you shouldn't have come. You're the one who

6 is breaking up the battlefield.

7 "JNAO: Please, since this is my territory I would prefer it if

8 you didn't talk about that here. No, this is not the place to discuss

9 that I came to make peace with Milan Babic and Milan Martic. You

10 shouldn't have talked about it here at all.

11 "CD: Who asks the -- who's asking the people? Who's asking the

12 people?

13 "L: This influences morale.

14 "CD: No, but Babic Vojvoda and others pointed out --

15 "VS: You got involved in a conflict that you shouldn't have

16 interfered in. Ask Babic. Since Babic is the prime minister anybody who

17 don't like it can leave the Krajina. We are the army but the people

18 decide which authorities, which government is good and which is not. You

19 came here to help not to interfere. In a state of war you cannot change

20 the government. The government has to be changed by elections. People

21 don't -- don't interfere in this."

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This video clip has already

23 been admitted with the following numbers: P60 and P185.

24 The least you can say is that there is a very lively discussion

25 here between Mr. Seselj and the other persons, especially the individual

1 wearing a red beret and an insignia with three stars at the front of his

2 uniform, a man with the white hair.

3 Now, what is the context of this video? It's not really

4 something you can say just watching it.

5 Mr. Seselj, you were there.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This short man is

7 Dragan Vasiljovic, also known as Captain Dragan. I'm sure that you've

8 heard of him. At least the OTP knows the name. He bears the same

9 insignia that the Judge Harhoff pointed to. This is a cross with four

10 Ss, an insignia that was made for the Territorial Defence for Knin

11 Krajina, and there were samples spread all over the place. Some were

12 even worn -- worn in Belgrade. Second of all, this was taken two or

13 three days after the fall of Vukovar. We need a date here. The

14 Prosecution has not provided us with a date. This is the moment when I

15 arrived in Knin in order to prevent the rebellion of the army against the

16 Srpska Krajina government which was being organised by Captain Dragan.

17 After that, Captain Dragan left Krajina. I have to explain the

18 background of the footage otherwise we can ask about the relevance of

19 this footage.

20 On the 20th of November in Banja Luka, I received a message from

21 Milan Babic to arrive urgently in Knin and to help him fight Captain

22 Dragan. If you don't need the context of this footage, then you don't

23 need the footage either, do you?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, here you're

25 addressing the substance of this video. We'll come back to that later.

1 What's relevant is that you were there, Captain Dragan was there, there

2 was a discussion. There's obviously disagreement between you. As for

3 the rest, we'll deal with it later. You very probably will have the

4 opportunity to deal with that again and talk to us about Captain Dragan.

5 Furthermore, this video clip has already been admitted. Let's

6 move on to the following one.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I have to provide a

8 comment. I don't have to deal with Captain Dragan because we did not

9 have any contacts and there is nothing in my indictment speaking about

10 the western part of Serbian Krajina. Second of all, if you're not

11 interested in the context of this footage, then the question of the

12 relevance of this footage arises. How can this footage be irrelevant for

13 the fact that I am much higher than Captain Dragan and that the uniform

14 fits me much better. As a military figure, I -- I looked very becoming.

15 How else would it be relevant if you don't want me to give you the

16 context? If you need the context, then it can be put in two short

17 sentences.

18 Obviously Captain Dragan had his own unit there. He did not obey

19 the authority of the civilian government or the military government, and

20 he had to be expelled from Krajina. After he was once expelled, he

21 returned in order to rebel against the government of Serbian Krajina.

22 That is the context and I'm opposing his attempts to stage up a putsch.

23 If you don't need the context then I really don't know why you would need

24 the footage at all.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've reminded us of the

1 context. Very well. Let's move on to the following video clip.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next tape or the next

3 clip bears 65 ter number 6013. The old number was 3155. The date of

4 this footage is 18 November -- I believe this might be a typo. It says

5 1992. The particular report was shown on Yutel and was produced by SRT

6 Knin. The Prosecution received this tape on 28 September 2006. This is

7 65 ter number 6013.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: The appearance of the

10 president of the Serbian Radical Party, Dr. Vojislav Seselj, who commands

11 great respect in Vukovar, was met with a storm of applause.

12 "Seselj: Serbian brothers and Serbian sisters, we have reached

13 the anniversary of the freedom of heroic Serbian Vukovar. A year --"

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not getting any

15 interpretation. Okay. Let's start again.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Journalist: The appearance of the

18 president of the Serbian Radical Party, Dr. Vojislav Seselj, who commands

19 great respect in Vukovar, was met with a storm of applause.

20 "Seselj: Serbian brothers and sisters, we have reached the

21 anniversary of the freedom of heroic Serbian Vukovar, a year of Serbian

22 pride, unity, and dignity, but also a year of great sorrow for heroes who

23 have built their lives into the foundations of heroic Vukovar, who have

24 fallen for its freedom. As in any other war, in this liberation war of

25 the western Serbs, the best ones among us, the bravest, the most heroic

1 ones have fallen, the ones whom Serbdom held as most precious have

2 fallen. Today when most of Serbian Slavonia, Serbian Baranja, Serbian

3 Western Srem, Serbian Dalmatia, Lika, Banija, and Kordun, Western

4 Slavonia, when most of them are free we, the Serbs, have a reason to be

5 proud. Big powers have pressed us from all sides. All the enemies of

6 Serbdom have joined together in recent months to see us destroyed. It is

7 clear to them, the main source of our strength is Serbia, and they would

8 like to break the backbone of Serbia. They block her, introduce

9 sanctions and surround her from all sides. They would like to see Serbia

10 fall to her knees and then to be left adrift to tender mercies of our

11 traditional enemies. But Serbia's backbone cannot be broken. Serbia

12 cannot be forced to her knees, and Serbia will never leave you in the

13 cold. She will never let the Republic of Serbian Krajina or Republika

14 Srpska down. War is not a choice of us Serbs. We did not ask for this

15 war either and we did not want it, but there is something that is more

16 valuable and is more illustrious than peace - that is freedom and

17 democracy.

18 "We will not let somebody commit genocide over the Serbian people

19 again. We will not let the Serbs, their hands tied be led to pitfalls,

20 to slaughterhouses, to execution sites. This time the Serb has readily

21 met with his enemies, have prepared for him, and this time the Serb has

22 persisted. He knew how to protect and how to liberate what is his.

23 "We the Serbs want peace. From all the neighbouring peoples, we

24 are the one which cares about peace the most because we have suffered the

25 greatest number of casualties in this 20th century in liberation wars.

1 But we, the Serbs, will not give what belongs to us. We live free and

2 proud in traditional Serbian lands. We are not giving even an inch of

3 these lands. We do want peace but we also want to have demarcation lines

4 drawn up between ourselves, the Croats and other Serb haters. Definitely

5 we will not go into a united and common state ever again. We do want

6 peace, but we do not want to negotiate while the sanctions are in place,

7 while the blockade is in place. There must be no talks with anybody

8 while our hands are tied. Serbian brothers and Serbian sisters, what

9 worries you the most is the fact that this country is being led by the

10 treacherous government of Milan Panic.

11 "Audience: That's right. That's right.

12 "Seselj: Milan Panic has been planted among the Serbian people

13 as a trick played on them, but he will not survive for long. He will not

14 realise any of his treacherous ideas because we, the Serbs, will not let

15 him do that, not the Serbs from Serbia, not the Serbs from Montenegro,

16 not the Serbs from Serbian Krajina or the Serbs from Republika Srpska.

17 His days are numbered.

18 "Audience: That's right.

19 "Seselj: And this winter no Serb, no Serbian child, must be

20 cold, and nobody must be hungry. We are capable of providing that, and

21 we will take care of the rest together with joint forces. We shall

22 resist all trials. Nobody can take Serbian Krajina away from us, so as

23 long as you are united and in accord with each other and so long as

24 Serbia is ready to give you a helping hand, and it will be ready

25 evermore, Serbian Krajina remains ours. Goodbye with the traditional

1 Serbian greeting, 'Serbia will be eternal as long as her children are

2 faithful.' Goodbye."

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. In the summary I have

4 here, the Prosecutor stated that Milan Lancuzanin, aka Kameni, was

5 standing next to Mr. Seselj. I've never seen Mr. Kameni, so I do not

6 know whether he was standing behind Mr. Seselj or not. Apparently he

7 must have been there, because that's been specified here by the

8 Prosecution.

9 For the rest, we have a speech delivered on the anniversary of

10 the fall of Vukovar, on the first anniversary of the fall of Vukovar.

11 Mr. Seselj, do you have any objections against the admission of

12 this video? After all, it's a speech of yours.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, I

14 would like to object to your comment. You said apparently Kameni was

15 there, because that's what the OTP put in their description, and I

16 guarantee to you that not even the Prosecutor can point to Kameni in this

17 footage.

18 If you can play the footage again and ask the Prosecutor to point

19 to Kameni to you, you will see what happens.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now going to turn to the

21 Prosecution. Why did you say here in the summary that Kameni was

22 standing next or behind Mr. Seselj whilst Mr. Seselj was delivering his

23 speech?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if the tape can be played again, at the

25 beginning I believe that there is a very short part at the beginning of

1 the tape where Kameni is visible on this tape, and I would ask that the

2 first -- beginning of this tape be shown again.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I think to see him just in front

5 of Dr. Seselj when they are marching. There is a person with blonde

6 hair, and it seems to me Milan Lancuzanin. If we can see it again, and

7 Mr. Seselj can check this, it would be great.

8 [Videotape played]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, the

10 Prosecutor tells us that Mr. Kameni's the one here.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, your experiment is

12 successful. The Prosecutor indeed did recognise Kameni, and it is

13 Kameni.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is indeed Kameni.

15 Now, with respect to the admission of this video, do you have any

16 observations?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object because of the technical

18 quality, and also this is not an integral footage. I really enjoyed

19 listening to myself delivering this speech such a long time ago and

20 that's why I'm really sorry that I could not see the whole footage.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,

22 please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P00294.

24 Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move on to the following

1 video clip.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Next clip, Mr. President and Your Honours, has

3 already been admitted into evidence as P56, P56. This is a clip that

4 runs about 35 seconds from a documentary series entitled "Pictures Of

5 Words And Hate, Year Two." It was received by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor on the 6th of November, 2002. This is P56.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] UM: Shoot -- shoot at the log.

9 Shoot at the log.

10 "MB: I am the president of the Serbian Radical Party [as

11 interpreted]. We actually control all the accesses to the city and all

12 exits from it, too, and we control approximately 75 per cent of the

13 city."

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This video was admitted. It

15 was shot during a combat operation because we can hear the shots.

16 Mr. Seselj, do you have any comments?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to let you know

18 that these were local members of the Serbian Radical Party. All these

19 people were from Bijeljina. They were fighting against the Muslim

20 paramilitary formations and this is all I would like to draw your

21 attention to. And you can see that they don't wear complete uniforms of

22 the JNA. They wear whatever they could get hold of to look, to resemble

23 soldiers.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next video footage, please,

25 because this video has already been admitted.

1 MR. MUNDIS: The next clip actually is two clips. It's also been

2 previously admitted into evidence. This is P30, P30. This is raw

3 footage from the Laura Silber interview with Dr. Seselj for "The Death of

4 Yugoslavia" BBC series. The first clip runs 4 minutes and 17 seconds.

5 The second clip runs 1 minute and 27 seconds. Again, this has previously

6 been admitted under Exhibit number P30.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: Were your units in Zvornik in

9 1992, either you or your units.

10 "VS: Yes, our volunteers were in Zvornik. Arkan's volunteers

11 participated, too, as did another formation of a certain Zuca who was

12 under the command of the police and who is now being tried for war

13 crimes.

14 "LS: And how did all of this come about? How did you decide to

15 go? Did you get an order from Belgrade? Did you get a request from

16 Srpska? How did everything come about?

17 "VS: Yes. We never received any orders. These were always

18 requests. Milosevic would ask us or Radmilo Bogdanovic would ask us.

19 Some general would ask us, Domazetovic, for example, or somebody else.

20 They would say they need so many volunteers for this and that location

21 and we would gather that many volunteers. When they say they need the

22 most experienced ones, we send the most experienced one. When they say

23 they could also use those with not much experience because it is nothing

24 dangerous, then we send such people. It was always like that.

25 "LS: And who then asked you to send your units?

1 "VS: In 1992, in May, I began having meetings with Milosevic on

2 a more regular basis and back then it was always Milosevic himself who

3 asked for volunteers to be sent out. I mean, one didn't have to convince

4 us very much. We took this as our duty, our responsibility except when

5 it came to the deployment where the most capable and the most disciplined

6 men would be. They --

7 "LS: Could you then tell us about one such conversation

8 regarding any places where you went or where you sent your units. How

9 would the conversations with President Milosevic go regarding that?

10 "VS: Those were very -- were always quick agreements. For

11 example, when Tudjman attacked Pocitelj, Divoselo and Citluk in 1993.

12 Milosevic had some sorts of agreements with him about that but it seems

13 that Tudjman did not keep his end of the deal. They had some underhand

14 dealings there, Milosevic was disappointed by Tudjman's actions and

15 therefore decided at the last minute to send volunteers there. He called

16 me and I went to him right away. He said 3 or 4.000 volunteers need to

17 be sent to Divoselo, Citluk and Pocitelj. We had 3 to 5.000 volunteers

18 within two days and Arkan brought along with him around 300 more. They

19 were sent out from Belgrade in literally two days. There were never any

20 problems with that. We would agree on this very quickly. This was

21 always agreed upon in a few words. We need to go. Let's go.

22 "LS: If you could concretely tell us how it came about that you

23 went to Zvornik. How did all of this come about.

24 "VS: You see, our volunteers were involved when the Zvornik

25 operation began, but only while the fighting lasted. They withdrew as

1 soon as the fighting ceased. However, some other forces under the

2 control of the Serbian police stayed behind and as soon as the operation

3 was finished, they began looting. They looted everything they could get

4 their hands on. They even stole from Serbs they came across. They were

5 not checking anything. They were all the same, stealing cars, foreign

6 currency, and so on. That caused great discontent among the people.

7 What was also happening there during the war and apart from everything

8 else was, you know, a mass movement of people. All the Serbs who

9 remained under Muslim control tried frantically to cross to the Serb

10 side. All the Muslims under Serb control frantically and instinctively

11 tried to cross over to the Muslim side. Well, the Serbs let all the

12 Muslims go but the Muslims did not let all the Serbs go. It was then

13 that the myth about ethnic cleansing came about. I cannot say it did not

14 happen anywhere but I can claim that it was never done in a systematic

15 and organised manner by the Serbs. Sometimes this was more organised

16 here in Belgrade in order to set up Karadzic."

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: And if you could describe to

19 us why it was actually important for the Serbs. If you could tell us how

20 things went when you left to Zvornik. Who told you to go? How did it

21 all happen?

22 "VS: You see, in May 1992 Milosevic definitely takes over the

23 absolute control of the Yugoslav People's Army. It was then that the new

24 constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was adopted and he

25 formally and actually became the main man in the country. The man who

1 made all the decisions. The Zvornik operation was planned in Belgrade.

2 Bosnian Serb forces participated in it and they were the most numerous

3 ones. However, the special units and the units most eager to fight came

4 from this side. Those were the very police units, the so-called Red

5 Berets. Those were the police units, the so-called Red Berets. Thy are

6 special units of the Serbian State Security Service. There were

7 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, Arkan's volunteers and there was

8 also a smaller volunteer unit also under the control of the police. The

9 army did not participate much in this operation. They mainly provided

10 artillery support when needed. It took a long time to plan, to prepare

11 the operation so there was no nervousness or calls such as, Come on, we

12 need this or that urgently. Everything was well organised and well

13 executed up until the hostilities ceased. Afterwards when the looting

14 began, no one could control it any more."

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We've seen this

16 portion of the footage, 4 minutes 17 seconds, 1 minute and 20 seconds.

17 This footage has already been admitted under Exhibit number P30.

18 Mr. Seselj.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My observation and objection is

20 that the complete tape was not shown of Laura Silber, because things have

21 been pulled out of context. As far as I remember, I described how the

22 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party set out for Zvornik from Belgrade

23 and that they were trained and armed in Bubanj Potok, that they set out

24 in buses and so on and so forth. So whether in that interview or in some

25 other interview, however, this other interview is in the possession of

1 the Prosecutor as well and I think it was brought up in another trial. I

2 referred to a man who commanded the police volunteers, and that was

3 Vojislav Jekic who was the commander of the police either in Zvornik,

4 chief of police either in Zvornik or in Loznica, and he took part in the

5 operation to liberate a place called Kula Grad above Zvornik. So just

6 one objection and that is that the entire tape of this conversation and

7 interview were not shown so that we could clarify many other points.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your comments are on the

9 transcript. The Trial Chamber will bear all of this in mind, of course.

10 We shall now move on to the next one, which is 6055.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, 65 ter number 6055

12 bearing old 65 ter number 0764 is the next clip. It runs approximately 3

13 minutes and 50 seconds. This was a compilation videotape concerning

14 media coverage of Milan Martic. It was received by the Office of the

15 Prosecutor on 3 January 2002 from the Croatian government and includes

16 some video footage taken by Serbian Krajina television. This is 65 ter

17 number 6055.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: One of the reasons of

20 our visit was the successful action a few days ago in which 16 Ustashas

21 were liquidated. In connection with this, the commander of the Republic

22 of Serbian Krajina army Main Staff, General Mile Novakovic, and Minister

23 Milan Martic visited the Serbian volunteers. General Novakovic

24 congratulated the soldiers on the successful action, stressed that their

25 unit could serve as a model to all those defending Serbdom.

1 "Novakovic: The Serbian army's Main Staff particularly values

2 the Serbian volunteers who have come to these western Serbian states to

3 defend them, to defend and protect both this people and this territory of

4 ours. We value you because we know that you have not come here to fight

5 for the sake of appearances, in order to seek glory for yourselves in war

6 or for any selfish, egoistical reasons but you have come to fight for the

7 freedom and honour of the Serbian people.

8 "Reporter: Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic, who leads this elite unit,

9 appealed to all Serbs who have not done so to join the defensive ranks

10 because Serbdom is not defended either in Belgrade or in Knin but

11 everywhere where Serbs have been attacked. The Serbian volunteers

12 include members of all parties but at this moment none of them are

13 interested in politics and they're all fighting under the unified command

14 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina army Main Staff.

15 "Ostojic: The motto of our fighters is patriotism and freedom

16 for the Serbian people and nothing else. We want to defend the Serbian

17 lands, to defend Serbian children and Serbian mothers, and to counter the

18 Ustasha devils militarily and heroically. And I would send this message

19 out to them: Let them leave the innocent alone. Let them be men and let

20 them stand on the battlefield and choose their own weapons. We are

21 ready. It makes me very sad. We -- there are Croatian women and

22 children here and not a hair on anyone's head should be harmed, but they

23 stick our children on knives and slaughter our --

24 "Reporter: The oldest soldier in Jovo Ostojic's unit is over 60

25 years old and that is why he is called Solunac, the Salonika front

1 veteran.

2 "Djeric: They call me Solunac. I am Dusan Djeric from Sombor.

3 "Reporter: And tell me how old are you.

4 "Djeric: I'm 63 years old.

5 "Reporter: And how long have you been in this unit?

6 "Djeric: From the start. I have been in this unit since it was

7 formed.

8 "Reporter: You've seen many fronts.

9 "Djeric: Many fronts. And I'm very proud of my commander, Zuca

10 from Apatin. So far we have completed every assignment we were given.

11 We are still planning, and I am therefore telling those who stand in our

12 way, just as we have completed assignments up to now, I hope that we will

13 complete the next assignment that we are planning still better.

14 "Reporter: At the end the Serbian volunteers sent greetings to

15 Serbs in the Krajina. So as not to send greetings one at a time because

16 there are many of them, they sang it together as true Serbs do.

17 "Male voices: From our victory the sun of freedom rises, from

18 our victory."

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, any comments?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure that the

21 Prosecutor gave us the date when this video was taped, but I could

22 identify myself. It was 1993, when the Croats destroyed three Serbian

23 villages and killed all the civilian population in them. They are

24 Citluk, Pocitelj, and Divoselo, and that was when we sent a large number

25 of volunteers out from Serbia to help out. And most of these volunteers

1 shown here are from the Serbian Radical Party, and this is the Chetnik

2 Vojvoda, Ostojic. I proclaimed him a Chetnik Vojvoda myself.

3 Once again the question of relevance arises. As far as I'm

4 concerned, this is inculpatory -- exculpatory, interpreter's correction

5 exculpatory material for me because Vojvoda Ostojic says what the conduct

6 should be toward civilians on the enemy side.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit number

9 P00295.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention to.

11 I think I have to do that. Look how well dressed all these volunteers

12 are. There are young girls among them, young women, and you can see some

13 with beards but the beards are properly clipped, large beards like

14 Fidel Castro but well-kept. So regardless of the fact that he was a

15 Communist, Fidel Castro, it's a fine example for us because he's fighting

16 the Americans.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Registrar, can we

18 have a new exhibit number, because this was not recorded on line 17. I

19 need to look at the screen and listen all at once. It's difficult,

20 please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number

22 P00295, Your Honours. Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, next

24 piece of footage, please.

25 MR. MUNDIS: The next video clip, Your Honours, bears 65 ter

1 number 6069. The old 65 ter number was 0759. This is material that was

2 received from the government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

3 pursuant to a request for assistance. This shows or this material comes

4 from Srpska Radio Televizija. This is on or after 13 May 1995. This is

5 clip 6 -- PT -- 65 ter number 6069.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Announcer: Dr. Vojislav Seselj,

8 chairman of the Serbian Radical Party, visited Sarajevo and going around

9 the streets of Sarajevo he visited the front lines. Dr. Vojislav Seselj

10 stressed again that the Serbs east of the Drina River think and empathise

11 with the people in Republika Srpska and support the liberation struggle

12 of the Serbian people in these territories.

13 "VS: I am very happy, first of all, because of the very, very

14 high morale of the Serbian fighters to end this liberation war with

15 complete Serbian victory. And today I am more than ever convinced that

16 the whole of Sarajevo will finally be Serbian. We are here now in

17 Serbian Hadzici, Hadzici which from the first day of the war resisted

18 violent Muslim attacks but also Hadzici which triumphed in this war which

19 managed to save everything that is Serbian. Even the entire Mount Igman

20 was liberated but Muslims returned afterwards under UNPROFOR aegis with

21 which UNPROFOR actually showed whose side it was on in this war. Igman

22 will remain Serbian. I am convinced of that because of the strength of

23 the Serbian fighters, because of their faith in the Serbian cause, and

24 because of their faith in a Greater Serbia. Here the people created a

25 state which is strong, functions well and notwithstanding poverty, the

1 hard life the Serbian people of Republika Srpska will be triumphant.

2 They will be victorious. The destiny of Serbian Krajina is most of all

3 linked to Republika Srpska not to those rulers from Dedinje. The future

4 of the Serbian Krajina is in the unification with Republika Srpska,

5 unification now. Unification tomorrow, straight away.

6 "Announcer: At the end of his visit to Srpska Sarajevo,

7 Dr. Vojislav Seselj told citizens and combatants to endure in the

8 righteous struggle and that Serb radicals will help as much as they're

9 able to, that the Serbian people in Republika Srpska achieve final

10 victory and freedom."

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, any comments?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no special observations to

13 make except that this is footage from 1995, so I don't know how you're

14 going to incorporate this unbelievably into the indictment. Otherwise,

15 I'm proud. This is my visit to Serbian Sarajevo in May 1995, and that's

16 what it says roughly in the information provided by the OTP.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, this is a visit by

19 Mr. Seselj in 1995. Clearly this is outside the scope of the indictment.

20 What is the point of showing this video? What's the point of this, as

21 far as you're concerned?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, it shows that even after the

23 indictment period it clearly shows Dr. Seselj with some of the

24 volunteers. We would assert that visible in that videotape is -- along

25 with Dr. Seselj is Branislav Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, one of the

1 Vojvodas. So it would certainly demonstrate that even after the

2 indictment period Dr. Seselj was associating with Vojvodas and some of

3 the volunteers.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, by the Dayton Accords,

5 according to the Dayton Accords, a lot of territory of Serbian Sarajevo

6 had to be handed over including Ilidza, Vogosca, Ilijas, and so on.

7 Branislav Gavrilovic, Brne, moved to Serbia. He didn't have anywhere to

8 live because he comes from those parts. And when I became president of

9 the Zemun municipality, the first thing I did was to employ him in the

10 service for security of the Zemun municipality, to give him a livelihood,

11 a means of livelihood for himself and his family, and then from Zemun

12 municipality he was given a flat in Belgrade. So when did I challenge

13 having seen him. Then he was employed in the security service of the

14 Serbian Radical Party later on, so of course I saw him. Of course I met

15 with him but what has that got to do with the period relevant to the

16 indictment?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecution is

18 saying that what is outside the scope of the indictment is this: You

19 went to meet some volunteers. Do you feel that this video is useful to

20 you in any way, because if it may seem useful and if everybody agrees,

21 then there he's no reason why it should not be admitted.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as a politician this is very

23 useful because it's going to be shown on Serbian television this evening,

24 but I don't know how legally relevant it is. So I'm not opposed to it.

25 I didn't visit the volunteers. These were Republika Srpska soldiers and

1 we didn't have any volunteers there at that time at all. That's the fact

2 of the matter and the Prosecution knows that after 1993, we couldn't send

3 volunteers out anywhere because of the conflict with Milosevic's regime

4 everything was blocked after 1993. So there are no traces of any

5 volunteers being sent to any of the fronts from Serbia unless someone

6 happened to swim across the Drina River and went to fight. There was no

7 organised sending of volunteers any more. It was just not possible at

8 that time.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we shall admit it and see

10 later on whether we value it in any way. For the time being it doesn't

11 seem to be very useful. The Prosecution is asking to have it admitted

12 and you have nothing against it notwithstanding its relevance, but

13 insofar as volunteers are mentioned in this video, even if in 1995 there

14 are no more volunteers, these are perhaps former volunteers. So I think

15 we could spend a lot of time discussing this, but could we have an

16 exhibit number, Registrar, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00296,

18 Your Honours. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're now addressing another

20 topic.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. This is a topic which only

22 includes one video clip at this point in time and that is 65 ter number

23 1836, bearing old 65 ter number 0763. This tape was received from

24 Serbian television. We do not have information concerning the date that

25 this video material was taken. The clip that we have loaded up runs

1 about one and a half minutes long.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Would that mean a

4 bloodthirsty killing of civilians?

5 "Seselj: Well, every war is bloodthirsty and this war has not

6 been particularly bloodthirsty in comparison to other wars. This war has

7 been less inhumane, less bloodthirsty in any case than the ones the

8 Germans fought in this century

9 "Reporter: And why the Muslims in particular? Why not the

10 Croats?

11 "Seselj: Because this time the Americans sided with the Muslims

12 in this war. We cannot -- they intervened on the side of the Muslims and

13 we have no reason to be attacking the Croats now.

14 "Reporter: Let's take the example of Gorazde. What will -- what

15 do you think will happen to Gorazde?

16 "Seselj: I think there is no saving Gorazde, that Gorazde will

17 fall into Serbian hands.

18 "Reporter: And the Muslims in Gorazde?

19 "Seselj: The Muslims from Gorazde will most likely go to

20 Arizona, California, New Mexico, and so on ... under American protection.

21 "Reporter: Will you allow this or will you try to prevent them?

22 "Seselj: Whom should I prevent?

23 "Reporter: The Muslims to leave.

24 "Seselj: No, because they're very dear to the Americans. I

25 think it is of mutual benefit the Americans cannot wait to take in those

1 Muslims. The Muslims cannot wait to go to America and we cannot wait for

2 something good to happen to the Muslims."

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So once again this seems to be

4 outside the scope of the indictment, because US strikes are mentioned

5 here and this comes after the indictment.

6 Mr. Seselj.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is rather problematic

8 because once again it's not the entire tape. Here you can see that I'm

9 hitting at the Americans, not the Muslims. So this footage, for it to be

10 understandable at all, must be shown in total, and it's outside the

11 relevant time. So it's just a manipulation on the part of the

12 Prosecution. It's as if I am trying to say that I want the Muslims to be

13 expelled from Gorazde, but you know that was already in 1994 when the

14 Serbs had almost liberated Gorazde or just liberated Gorazde and then had

15 NATO air-strikes against them and their operation had to stop. So that's

16 that particular period. And they could have found footage where I

17 threatened to USS 20 rockets to target American bases in Aviano. Perhaps

18 that's on this part of the tape but they didn't want to show it to you.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has decided

21 orally not to admit this video.

22 Let's move on to another topic, shall we?

23 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps it would be best, Mr. President and

24 Your Honours, for the benefit of the record it could certainly be given

25 an MFI number.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We shall give it an

2 MFI number in that case. The Trial Chamber does not admit this video as

3 it stands so could we have a MFI number, Registrar, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P00297 marked for

5 identification. Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It might be better to have the

7 break now and resume after the break. Let's have a 20-minute break and

8 we'll finish after the break. We have still a few videos to see.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an answer regarding

12 the second video clip regarding Sljvancanin? Do you know whether it was

13 submitted in the so-called Vukovar trial or not?

14 MR. MUNDIS: We're still trying to determine if it was actually

15 tendered. It was certainly not admitted into evidence in that trial

16 along the same lines as the first video that we saw, the interview of

17 Major Sljvancanin.

18 Before -- Your Honours, before we proceed I do have a couple of

19 issues that I would like to clarify or correct with respect to some of

20 the videos we've seen earlier this morning.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Nothing's working

22 right now.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would you mind saying something

24 so that we see whether we can hear you.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honours. What I was saying is that --

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead. It's good now.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. What I was saying is that I need to

3 correct two points with respect to videos that were shown earlier this

4 morning, it's been drawn to my attention. The first issue concerns the

5 videotape that had 65 ter number 6011. This was the videotape that had

6 been previously marked P16 MFI. That clip that was shown this morning I

7 have now been informed was a different clip from the same master tape, if

8 you will, and the tape -- the clip that was shown this morning and which

9 was admitted, therefore, actually should be assigned an entirely exhibit

10 number. And the prior clip from that tape which was P16 MFI should

11 remain as P16 MFI and perhaps we'll revisit that tape in the future with

12 a witness or on another video day, but the clip that was admitted as P16

13 in fact was not the same as P16 MFI so I suggest that we revert to P16

14 MFI and leave that clip as that status and the new number be assigned to

15 what was admitted as P16.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, give us another

17 number, a new number to replace P16. P16 remaining P16 MFI.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be Exhibit number

19 P00298. Thank you, Your Honours.

20 MR. MUNDIS: And the second issue concerns the tape that we just

21 looked at, which was marked for identification P0297. Similarly, there

22 were a number of clips that were taken from the original 65 ter number

23 1836, and as a result for the benefit of everyone's record-keeping the

24 clip that has been MFI P00297, the 65 ter number for that should be

25 1836A.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So 1836A instead of just 1836;

2 is that right?

3 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President. Thank you,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go on -- move

6 on.

7 Yes, Mr. Seselj.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, but quite

10 obviously I can't think as quickly as I used to think several years ago.

11 I've become a little senile being in the detention unit.

12 The light flashed on when Milan Martic is praising the

13 volunteers, and a volunteer is mentioning a commander called Zuca from

14 Sombor, and I think that was the motive for the Prosecution to put

15 forward this footage, because the Zuca from Sombor is not the same Zuca

16 as the one from Belgrade who had the Zuta Osa, Yellow Wasp formation. So

17 if that was the intention of the Prosecution, that can't stand. The

18 nickname Zuca is very frequent in Serbia and usually it is people who are

19 very blonde who are given the name Zuca, because it comes from yellow, so

20 blonde yellow hair. So that particular lamp didn't flash on straight

21 away. It took me a while to realise why the Prosecution actually wanted

22 to slip that in.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has been recorded in the

24 transcript, of course, and the Trial Chamber will factor this in.

25 Now I think we can move on to the next chapter, JCE, and

1 organisation of volunteers. Is that so, Mr. Mundis?

2 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President. The next clip bears 65

3 ter number 6069. The old number was -- the old 65 ter number was 0759.

4 This is another clip from Srpska Radio Televizija. The approximate date

5 of this tape is 13 May 1995. This tape was obtained from the Republic of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina pursuant to a request for assistance. And I

7 should note that the issues being discussed on this tape relate directly

8 to the indictment period notwithstanding the fact that the tape itself

9 was filmed in May of 1995. So I want to indicate that at the beginning,

10 because we would potentially have the same issue that the tape was made

11 outside the indictment period, but there are references to events inside

12 the indictment period. And this is 65 ter number 6069.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. President, I just note that 65 ter number

14 6069 was also the one that we saw for Exhibit P296.

15 MR. MUNDIS: And this would be clip A, if you note in the full

16 name in the column. A lot of the videotapes in order to reduce the

17 amount of -- the length of the tapes were subsequently cut into various

18 clips and this is -- this is in fact from the same original tape, but it

19 is clip A as compared with --

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Clip B.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Clip B which was P2696.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] VS: It is very much more

25 difficult for us to send volunteers than it was in 1991, 1992, and 1993.

1 When we sent volunteers back then we had good cooperation with Slobodan

2 Milosevic. He gave us uniforms, weapons, buses. He put the whole

3 barracks in Bubanj Potok at the disposal of the Serbian Radical Party,

4 all the technical equipment that was needed and that worked much better.

5 Because of Slobodan Milosevic's betrayal, the Serbian Radical Party is

6 now facing great difficulties in sending and equipping volunteers. Our

7 volunteers are now being sent to their assignments in civilian clothes,

8 to wherever certain Serbian army commands invite them, mostly to the

9 Serbian Krajina, the western part of Serbian Krajina, the scarcely

10 populated areas where our help is most needed. And these volunteers pass

11 through the corridor in buses across Banja Luka and so on. The Serbs

12 living there are already familiar with this. We cannot talk about

13 numbers, of course."

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we have once again come

15 across the problem of incomplete footage and the mention of

16 Slobodan Milosevic here is personalising a regime, but it's a very

17 complex question and you can't draw any conclusions on the basis that

18 have very brief excerpt out of context. You know during the conflict

19 with Milosevic, whenever we speak about the regime we in fact mention his

20 name, but there's nothing that we're talking about here because all these

21 questions have been clear and clarified, but it would have been a good

22 idea to see the entire footage and not this brief excerpt which in itself

23 says nothing. Once again, a question of relevance.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video clip

25 mentions volunteers who were dispatched, the issue of weapons,

1 ammunition, logistics, so there is a connection and we're going to give a

2 number to this video clip. Mr. Registrar, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number

4 P00299. Thank you, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: The next clip to be shown has been admitted into

7 evidence as P30. This is further or additional material from "The Death

8 of Yugoslavia" production concerning the interview that Dr. Seselj gave

9 to Laura Silber in early March 1995. Again, there are two clips in this

10 exhibit. The first one runs a little bit longer than one minute. The

11 second one runs a little bit less than one minute, and this has been

12 admitted as P30.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: And when you got those

15 weapons you said the regime gave the weapons to your party or volunteers.

16 Was the political leadership and Milosevic informed about that or did you

17 get it through the police?

18 "VS: Milosevic knew about all of it. There's no doubt about

19 that. Key people from the police at the time with whom we established

20 cooperation were Radmilo Bogdanovic, Mihalj Kertes and others,

21 Franko Simatovic, called Frenki, and so on who commanded the red berets

22 later, and so on. Then from the General Staff we mostly worked with

23 General Domazetovic, who at the time was the deputy chief of the General

24 Staff and the head of the personnel administration, if I remember

25 correctly. But we also had contacts with lower-ranking officers and so

1 on. Depending on the need and depending on the situation our volunteers

2 would come to Belgrade to Bubanj Potok barracks. There they would put on

3 their uniforms. They would be issued weapons and buses and they would go

4 where needed. And they were under the command of the Yugoslav People's

5 Army as soon as the Yugoslav People's Army got involved in the conflict."

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've seen this already, and a

7 long discussion ensued.

8 Do you have anything to add to that, Mr. Seselj?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd just like to draw your

10 attention to all the shortcomings, the fact that this footage was not

11 shown in its entirety so that people could conclude that I wanted to

12 include Milosevic in everything, whereas in fact the truth is that we're

13 talking about cooperation with the JNA. So this is information that is

14 trying to be put in here, and I'm just trying to involve Milosevic in the

15 conflict and mention him with respect to the conflict but you must bear

16 in mind the fact that the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were

17 very popular in Serbia. There was not a single institution, not a single

18 patriotic individual who praised them as being disciplined soldiers and

19 so on and so forth.

20 Now we come across here with a problem of reduction and editing,

21 subsequent editing of evidence. For example, the Prosecution has

22 information from the book by a certain woman called Dobrila Glisic-Gajic

23 and she was brought in as a witness in the Slobodan Milosevic trial. She

24 was the Chef de Cabinet of Tomislav Simovic, the defence minister. Now,

25 they did not incorporate a single piece of information from her book

1 here. Why? Because she testified and said that Slobodan Milosevic

2 attacked General Tomislav Simovic for congratulating the volunteers of

3 the Serbian Radical Party as being brave and well-disciplined. The

4 Prosecution has that but it doesn't want to offer that information up.

5 They are providing us with an edited version and not with everything they

6 have in their possession.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if the Prosecutor does

8 not want to tender this as evidence, you can do so later yourself.

9 Let's move on to the next clip, clip E. That's the second part,

10 isn't it?

11 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President.

12 THE INTERPRETER: I, interpreter's correction I.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] LS: Can you describe the moment

15 when you parted ways with Milosevic?

16 "VS: When the Vance Plan was put forward in April 1993.

17 Milosevic called me several times to come for talks at his office at the

18 Serbian Presidency and also at the state villa at Poticeva Street and at

19 the Sava Centre prior to the failed all-Serbian convention and so on. He

20 tried to convince me but couldn't. This was when we practically parted

21 ways. The rest was all about trying to patch up the rift. We too

22 thought it possible for Milosevic to return to decisive national policy

23 so we could give him another chance. All of this lasted until the

24 Vance -- well, until the attempted coup in Banja Luka. Karadzic was also

25 counting on that, on Milosevic coming back after all, on him making a

1 break and not rushing headlong and following through with that policy.

2 And don't forget, Milosevic always won the elections here on a national

3 platform exclusively."

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was listening to this and I

5 was looking at Mr. Seselj, and there was one contextual element that

6 escapes me totally. Sometime they said the attempted coup in Banja Luka

7 and I don't know what was this is about but this can be seen in this

8 video clip. Your comments, Mr. Seselj.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have any observations to

10 make but if you want me to explain that putsch to you, I can, if you need

11 the information. If not --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have an opportunity to

13 get back to that. Let's move to the next clip.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next clip has also

15 been admitted into evidence as P63. This videotape which runs a little

16 bit more than five minutes is apparently amateur videotape. We received

17 this -- the Office of the Prosecutor received this tape on the 13th of

18 December, 2002. The tape was apparently shot at the end of March 1995.

19 This is P63.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] J: Vojislav Seselj is addressing

22 the Serbs from Glina only four months before Operation Oluja started.

23 "VS: Milosevic needed us both in 1991 and 1992. Besides,

24 Slobodan Milosevic was helping the western Serbian countries at the time,

25 Serbian Krajina as well as Republika Srpska. Serbian Krajina and

1 Republika Srpska were established with his help. Besides, he gave us the

2 Serbian radicals, weapons for 30.000 volunteers. We were sending off to

3 almost all the battlefields where they were most needed. He also gave us

4 buses, uniforms. He put the whole barracks in Bubanj Potok at the

5 disposal of the Serbian Radical Party for the volunteers. We haven't

6 forgotten that. And also in the first days after the battle in

7 Borovo Selo, when we were transporting the weapons across the Danube to

8 Eastern Slavonia on rafts by night, that weaponry we got from the police

9 warehouses and Serbian Territorial Defence warehouses pursuant to

10 Milosevic's order.

11 "We returned Milosevic's favour and supported him when he was

12 having a tough time, the toughest time. The Z-4 plan, the Zagreb-4, a

13 humiliation for the Serbian people from the beginning. What does Zagreb

14 have to do with us the Serbs? If this is a Z-4 plan, then it should be

15 implemented in Zagreb. Let them tear and divide up Zagreb instead. No

16 plan can be accepted by the Serbian side if it envisages integration of

17 the Serbian Krajina into Croatia. Well, we the Serbian radicals have

18 sent 3.500 volunteers to Western Lika near Citluk and Pocitelj. He will

19 probably attack Western Slavonia if he decides to or perhaps Slunj to

20 emerge with the 5th Corps, to link up with the 5th Corps if the Serbs do

21 not destroy the 5th Corps before that. But if he strikes now, he should

22 be given such a blow that he will never recover from it. Let's win back

23 even what we did not manage to recover in 1991, and then complete

24 liberating everything that is ours, Zadar, Karlobag, and finally to

25 finish with Gospic we have special motives for that, to liberate Karlovac

1 where the majority of the population has always been Serbian. To

2 liberate all of Western Slavonia, all the way to Virovitica. There is no

3 other way. We can trade, exchange territories, but always those of the

4 same value. If Maslenica is so important to Tudjman, we'll give it to

5 him and he can give us the Dubrovnik coast stretch, let's say. That's

6 the only way we can exchange territories. We want Grubisno Polje. We

7 want the whole of Pakrac. This is the only way smart politicians should

8 negotiate territories.

9 "Brother and sister Serbs, we the Serbs shall win. We cannot

10 lose. We must not lose. What we manage to preserve as Serbia now shall

11 always remain Serbian. If we lose even a bit of our territories now,

12 that will never be Serbian again. Serbian Krajina is not a part of

13 Croatia. Serbian Krajina shall never be Croatian. But we should

14 immediately move towards the first phase of unification, the direct and

15 immediate unification of Republika Srpska and Serbian Krajina into a

16 single state, western Serbia with Banja Luka as its capital. We must not

17 allow ourselves to be torn apart and divided by others. Serbia will

18 exist for us as long as its children are loyal to her. Long live Greater

19 Serbia."

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has already been admitted

21 as P63. Do you have any comments, Mr. Seselj?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Seselj.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no comments to make on this.

24 I would repeat this speech today even though the Serbian Krajina is

25 currently occupied by Croatia with the help of the Americans. It will

1 never be Croatian. We will certainly liberate it one day. Neither this

2 Hague Tribunal nor anybody else can stand in the way of us Serbs.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry. These are

4 political statements that are not allowed here in this Tribunal. I'm

5 ever so sorry, Mr. Seselj.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, I am being tried here

7 exclusively for politics.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe for the past, but not for

9 the future, and these are statements for the future.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all the more reason for the

11 OTP to extend their indictment and charge me with my intentions for the

12 future. I don't mind.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, let's

14 finish now with the video clip number 6025.

15 MR. MUNDIS: The final videotape to be shown today, 65 ter number

16 6025 previously bore 65 ter number 0729. This clip runs a little bit

17 less than four minutes. It was received by the Office of the Prosecutor

18 on 19 September 2003. This footage apparently originally came from or

19 was broadcast on Braca Karic TV, that's BKTV. This is 65 ter number

20 6025.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Seselj: That's one thing.

23 Another thing, as regards what is stated in the indictment, they're

24 lying, and I'll prove it. In Hrtkovci I didn't call out the names of

25 Croats who should be expelled, I read out a list of Croats from Hrtkovci

1 who had gone to Croatia and were serving in the Ustasha National Guard

2 Corps. There were no expulsions. And regarding my statements, I wasn't

3 making them as someone in power but as someone from the opposition."

4 MR. MUNDIS: There is a second clip as part of this 65 ter number

5 6025.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Seselj: ... for someone who is

8 used to working.

9 "Journalist: Tell me, will you be watching television or using a

10 computer? How will you write those books?

11 "Seselj: I don't know if that's possible. I have yet to find

12 out. I have a laptop.

13 "Novinar: That's good for communication, too.

14 "Seselj: One cannot communicate, the internet is certainly

15 switched off. Whether it's possible to keep a laptop in the cell without

16 being connected to the internet, that's another question. We will have

17 to see if that's possible."

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, why show us this

19 second clip?

20 MR. MUNDIS: The second clip, we'll withdraw that at this point

21 this time, Your Honours. The first clip is the one we're primarily

22 interested in.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In the first clip

24 we have an interview of Mr. Seselj with a journalist just before

25 Mr. Seselj goes to The Hague after having heard of the indictment against

1 him. That's what this clip is all about.

2 Mr. Seselj.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to the best of my

4 recollection I commented on the entire text of the indictment, but here

5 they only showed what concerned Hrtkovci. But tell me tell you

6 something, I must correct something that is stated in the indictment,

7 that list of Croats to be expelled was read out. That's a lie. There

8 were Croats who had already gone and joined the Croatian armed forces. I

9 say here that I read it out, but it actually wasn't me. It was an

10 activist from my party.

11 It comes to the same thing, as if I had read it out. If an

12 activist of my party reads something out, it's the same as if I had read

13 it out. But later on I may show this entire video in the courtroom

14 because we do have the video of this rally in Hrtkovci. But I have a

15 comment on all of this by your leave.

16 In 2003, up to the first half of 2004, I received video material

17 from the OTP on videotapes. Then they started sending me DVDs and I

18 refused those. I had the intention of refusing videotapes as well,

19 because instead of transcripts they gave me interviews with various

20 witnesses and suspects. I refused to accept anything that was on DVD.

21 Now that you've made it possible for me to receive all relevant material

22 on paper, transcripts of interviews, statements, and so on, everything

23 that traditionally belongs to typical court documentation, I am now

24 asking the OTP to disclose to me all the video clips that they have at

25 their disposal in their original version so that my associates can search

1 through it and find parts that are interesting for us but that the OTP

2 has kept quiet about.

3 So I'm asking for all the video material which really and truly

4 is video material, not, for example, an interview with General Panic of a

5 thousand pages for me to look at and listen to. No. What I want is

6 video clips, footage that was taken in particular times and places

7 relevant for this indictment, like the material we've seen today. I

8 think this is very important for my defence and that under Rule 68(i) the

9 OTP's duty-bound to disclose that to me. So I'm asking for all the

10 footage they received from the Croatian authorities, the Muslim

11 authorities from Bosnia, all three Serbian authorities that this be

12 disclosed to me in a reasonable time.

13 There are video clips here that I find very valuable for my

14 defence which I didn't know existed, and who knows what else they have at

15 their disposal that I have never seen.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before addressing this point,

17 we need a number for the last clip, for the last video.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00300.

19 Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, I'm

21 trying to understand what Mr. Seselj is requesting. He explained that

22 during the pre-trial stage, and you know that several Judges were in

23 charge of that stage, several Trial Chambers, in any case, at some point

24 he received VHS videos, he viewed them, and then he was sent DVDs, and he

25 refused as a principle to play these DVDs, to view them.

1 Today he's telling us that he's discovering these videos for the

2 first time, and he wants the Prosecution to disclose to him all the video

3 material, all the relevant video material that is at the disposal of the

4 Prosecution. He's requesting the originals. So I suppose he means that

5 these videos should be given to him in his own language. If a video is

6 in English, he should be provided with the transcript or the text in

7 B/C/S for him to be able to follow what's being said in French, German,

8 English, or whatever.

9 He is asking you to disclose the videos that are in possession of

10 the OTP.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I don't even insist

12 on having subtitles. I just want original footage not something that

13 they are duty-bound to give me on paper, to have me exert myself and have

14 this put on paper and so on and so forth, but original footage of

15 historical events. It doesn't have to be subtitled. We'll find our way

16 around it. I just want to have that material as soon as possible so we

17 can start searching it.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you want to receive them as

19 DVDs?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, my associates can

21 operate DVDs.

22 MR. MUNDIS: We're trying to check some disclosure receipts,

23 Your Honours, but I believe that on two occasions we've tried to provide

24 this material and Dr. Seselj's refused to accept it so I don't know if

25 he's talking about the same video material or different video material.

1 I will say that the Office of the Prosecutor has undertaken a

2 huge effort to digitise all video material for the simple reason that

3 videotape has a very short -- relatively speaking, a very short lifespan.

4 And many of the videotapes, the original videotapes, when you go to play

5 them there's simply nothing left on them because over the course of the

6 past 15 to 18 years, they've simply deteriorated, if you will, the images

7 on the videotape. So if we're talking about actual videotapes, some of

8 them, there's nothing left on the videotapes. So as a result of that, we

9 have virtually digitised all video material. So the only way to get most

10 of that material would be on DVDs in digital format.

11 Now, I'm not sure if Dr. Seselj is talking about what we've tried

12 to disclose to him I believe twice which he's refused to accept because

13 it was digitised video rather than videotapes, or if he's referring to

14 something else. So if we could perhaps get a clarification of exactly

15 what it is he wants, but I believe it needs to be very clear that most if

16 not all of this material has been digitised for the simple reason that

17 the videos are in the -- are in the process of deteriorating because

18 videotape, unfortunately, does not have an indefinite lifespan, and some

19 of this material I know from dealing on other cases has deteriorated to

20 the point where it is simply impossible to watch. So videotape as an

21 option, something you put in a VCR machine, very well might not even be

22 an option with respect to some of this material.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, apparently when the

24 Prosecution started collecting evidence they were given videotapes by

25 various governments, NGOs, by Ms. Kandic, by X, Y, or Z. As time went

1 by, because this Tribunal has been around for more than 10 years already,

2 some of these tapes deteriorated, because most of us might know that it's

3 a process that happens with time, and because of that the Prosecution

4 decided to digitise all these videotapes and to put them in digital

5 format, on DVDs. They've started that, they might not have completed the

6 exercise. In other words, some DVDs in digital format were sent to you

7 and you refused them.

8 Before making any request today, it might be a good idea for your

9 associates to view all the DVDs you refused to accept. After that, you

10 may be in a position to ask for additional material, because I believe

11 that you yourself never viewed this footage. You never even received

12 this footage because you refused it.

13 Is that -- is that the position?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Mundis is

15 relatively new to this case, and he doesn't know all the trouble I had in

16 the first four years. Then the Pre-Trial Judges and Trial Chambers and

17 Prosecutors kept deciding to send me all the material in electronic

18 format.

19 For example, along with expert Davor Strinovic there was a vast

20 quantity of documents. They wanted to send them all to me on DVD. Then

21 they are duty-bound to give me transcripts of testimony from other cases

22 for witnesses called here. They wanted to give me all of that in

23 electronic form.

24 The only way for me to oppose this is to categorically refuse to

25 accept anything in electronic format. You are now guaranteeing that I

1 will receive all these materials on paper and in the Serbian language.

2 This now opens up the possibility for me to accept video material which

3 is original footage of historical events, footage of myself making a

4 speech, visiting the front lines, and so on and so forth. Footage of our

5 volunteers, footage taken in these situations. I accept all of that on

6 DVD. I continue refusing to accept anything that I should get on paper

7 such as, for example, testimony from previous cases and so on and so

8 forth.

9 I don't want the Prosecutor to see a chance here now of foisting

10 off on me DVDs with interviews of suspects or witnesses, witness

11 testimony from other cases, and so on and so forth. I think I've been

12 quite clear now.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think I understand. It's

14 rather complex, but I will try to sum up the issue.

15 Initially the Prosecution sent all, and I insist all material,

16 everything, on DVDs. I'm talking about documents, transcripts, video

17 footage, and so on and so forth. This was sent to either him or to his

18 standby counsel. As you know he went on a hunger strike, and then we

19 started everything from scratch. From then on, he received the material

20 coming under Rule 68 in his own language and in -- on paper, material

21 related to Rule 66 or 68, but now we are faced with a problem.

22 Those videos were initially mixed with all the rest, with all the

23 other materials, and now he wants to have this video footage on DVDs. I

24 suppose what the Prosecution should do is to look at all these DVDs that

25 were sent to him to try identify the video footage that is on these DVDs,

1 and the Prosecutor should now -- and that's a positive development, and I

2 believe that as the day's gone by things will develop positively. So now

3 Mr. Seselj has decided to accept DVDs with video footage related to

4 historical facts. For example, when he went to the front, when he dealt

5 with such-and-such person who's mentioned in the indictment.

6 That's the way I understand his request. Is the Prosecution in a

7 position to go through the hundreds or thousands of DVDs that were

8 initially disclosed to the accused, is the Prosecution, in order to do

9 this for the Prosecution to then send him only the video footage on DVDs?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I would need to check, but I am being

11 informed by my case manager that there were 15 DVDs that contained

12 exclusively video material, that contained -- these 15 DVDs contained

13 more than 100 hours of what might be described as historical or

14 contemporaneous video material. That we have tried to disclose to the

15 accused on two separate occasions, 27 September 2007 and again on 30

16 October 2007.

17 This contains all of the material on the 65 ter list. We

18 certainly -- it would take us many, many weeks if not months to go

19 through all of the video material that the OTP possesses looking for

20 specific things that the accused might be interested in.

21 I would respectfully suggest as a starting point that Dr. Seselj

22 accept, if he has not accepted thus far, or review, if he and his

23 associates have not reviewed it thus far, the 100 plus hours of videotape

24 material contained on the 15 DVDs. If he needs another copy, we have a

25 copy of it upstairs and it can be in his hands within a matter of hours

1 at most. Certainly by the end of today.

2 If there is additional material that he wants that is not

3 contained in these 15 DVDs, I will certainly -- or sorry I'm now being

4 told it's 12 DVDs not 15. So I stand corrected. These 12 DVDs, I would

5 certainly entertain a letter from Dr. Seselj asking me for more specific

6 videos if he can tell me I'm looking for this material from this from

7 this time period, that would be helpful. He can write us a letter in

8 Serbian. We'll read the letter. We'll see what we can do and respond to

9 it. But everyone needs to understand we have thousands and thousands and

10 thousands of hours of videotape, many of which are compilation tapes

11 covering the entire conflict in the former Yugoslavia and it's simply not

12 possible to sit down and review each and every one of those tapes in any

13 kind of a timely manner.

14 So I would strongly suggest that we start with the material that

15 we've tried to give him, those 12 DVDs, and if he knows of specific

16 interviews he gave or specific footage that he is aware of, I will check

17 the archives and we will disclose that to him in a digital format on a

18 DVD.

19 I think that's the most practical, reasonable, and expeditious

20 way to go forward.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is once again a positive

22 development.

23 Mr. Seselj, the Prosecution is telling us that there are 12 DVDs

24 which amount to a hundred hours and that this was sent to you. If you

25 have misplaced them, the Prosecution can give you another copy.

1 Now, from a technical and tactical standpoint, it would be

2 advisable for you, perhaps not for you solely because a hundred hours is

3 quite a long time for your associates to view all of this, and that under

4 your authority afterwards you could then say that some videos are missing

5 relating to historical facts, historical events, and important

6 personalities.

7 Mr. Mundis is quite open about this and is prepared to read any

8 letter coming from you, and this cannot be levelled against the

9 Prosecution. There are -- they have hundreds and thousands of documents

10 to review, thousands and ten thousands of viewing time, and we cannot ask

11 Mr. Mundis and Mr. Mussemeyer to 24 hours a day be rooted in front of

12 their screens and tell you what this contains.

13 Now, just by way of an example, in the case of Mr. Kameni,

14 perhaps certain videos in which one can see Mr. Kameni, perhaps some of

15 these videos are useful.

16 So this is a twofold response. First of all, please check out

17 these 12 DVDs that amount to a hundred hours of viewing time, and then

18 when you make your requests, make very concise requests to enable the

19 Prosecution to conduct the appropriate researches.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

21 ... acceptable to me, but you were a Pre-Trial Judge when on one occasion

22 I calculated and came up with a figure of 800 hours that I would need to

23 review all the material concerning other cases that at the time the OTP

24 wanted to hand over in the electronic form to me. This was absolutely

25 not feasible.

1 Now we have reduced that to the historical video material. I'm

2 going to accept these 12 DVDs and my associates are going to prepare a

3 request for some other things that we might be interested in. I believe

4 that this video material is not protected, that it is all public. So the

5 OTP will probably not have a problem providing us with a list of

6 everything that they possess so as to enable us to see what we might be

7 interested in. I suppose that they have a list of everything that they

8 have in their possession, so all in all the 12 DVDs plus a list of

9 everything else they have and we will have a successful cooperation.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know that. I

11 have some experience in this Tribunal. Unless some of the videos have

12 been tendered under seal in some other cases, then if you were to

13 disclose this then an application should be made before the Chamber.

14 This might complicate matters.

15 This is just a textbook example. Let's, for instance, take the

16 case of an ICRC document and that this video document has been used in a

17 particular case because the ICRC may or may not have had protective

18 measures and that this document is under seal. In that case, the

19 Prosecutor needs to look into the problem.

20 I don't know. This is purely theoretical.

21 You have told us that you are going to view all these DVDs, you

22 together with your associates, and you are going to be making precise

23 applications to the Prosecutor to obtain one or other video, and from

24 then on the Prosecutor can conduct his own searches if he can. If he

25 can't, well then he won't be able to meet your requests.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And a list of all the things that

2 they have in their possession.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One other thing, Mr. Mundis.

4 Does the OTP have a register in which you have recorded all the videos as

5 they came in, which would be easier for you? For instance, if a video

6 came from Vukovar, this might be registered as Vukovar BBC, CNN, Sky

7 News, I don't know.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Ideally, that's the way it should work. I will

9 state the following, perhaps Your Honours are aware of this from other

10 cases: All of the evidence registration numbers, the ERN numbers, the

11 16-digit numbers that are assigned to each piece of evidence, any ERN

12 number that begins with V is a video. So I can certainly generate a list

13 of all the videos -- the ERN of all the videos that we possess. If the

14 videotape was provided to the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 70, it should

15 have -- the first digit or the first figure in the ERN number should be

16 R. Any ERN number beginning with R is a Rule 70 document. A video that

17 came under Rule 70 should be stamped with an R rather than a V. That

18 means I should be able to generate a list of all the videos in the

19 possession of the Prosecution.

20 Now, the issue then becomes -- because certainly a list with

21 however many thousands ERN numbers beginning with V is of little or no

22 value to anyone. The issue then becomes what type of description I can

23 pull out of the database that could be provided and which would in any

24 way be helpful to the accused.

25 Virtually all of the investigations undertaken by this office in

1 the initial stages prior to indictment had a code-name. Most of the

2 investigators would have logged the material in under that investigative

3 code-name. So it's not always the case that you can tell by simply

4 looking at the description what geographic area or what crime base or

5 what the document or the video relates to. So it will really depend in

6 part on the quality of the descriptions of the person who entered that

7 material into evidence.

8 I'll have to check on that. I don't know how long it will take

9 for me to extract that information out of the database. I certainly --

10 it would seem -- it would seem standing here at this moment it would

11 certainly be easier for us to provide such a list to the accused and to

12 have him indicate what material he wants than for him to provide us with

13 a letter which we then go and search. So if the easiest thing, the most

14 reasonable step, the most practical way of getting this material to

15 Dr. Seselj and the most timely way is for us to give him a list and for

16 him and his associates to, in effect, tick box what they want and get

17 that back to us, that that very well might be the easiest way to do it.

18 Again, having said that, I need to go back and determine first of

19 all what that list would look like if we just pull it out of a database

20 because the descriptions might be such that it makes absolutely no sense

21 to anyone outside of OTP. Of course that list is going to be in English

22 and if it's -- if it's a 900-page long list of videos and we have to

23 translate that into Serbian, that's going to take us a long time to do.

24 So it's not something that I can just go back to my office and

25 push a couple of buttons and out is going to come a list of videotapes

1 that is going to make any sense to Dr. Seselj or members of his team. I

2 can't tell you that that's going to be the case standing here now. I

3 will have to go make some inquiries. I will have to determine how long

4 this list is. I will have to determine if in fact I'm going to be

5 ordered or requested to give that to him in Serbian. Then that's going

6 to take a significant period of time for me to produce and generate a

7 list like this in Serbian. And it could very well be a question of weeks

8 and months before I could do that depending on how long the list is and

9 how much there is in the description field for each of these videos.

10 So I'm certainly prepared to do what I can to get this material

11 to the accused, but I'm going to need to make some inquiries and come

12 back to the Chamber at some point next week once I have a better handle

13 on what it is that we could produce in terms of a list.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, if I have understood you

15 correctly, the videos are referenced as -- under number V or R, and Rule

16 70 videos and then you have a set of figures. You're able to provide

17 such a list and you can disclose that to Mr. Seselj, but to make it more

18 useful, let's assume you have something that begins with the letter V.

19 Would you be able to tell us whether it relates to Zvornik, the JNA, the

20 volunteers, so that he is able to identify it? If you just give V with a

21 series of numbers, that will not be very evocative.

22 Is your database sufficiently efficient? Is there a description

23 of the video together with these numbers?

24 MR. MUNDIS: That's what I was trying to explain, Your Honour.

25 It depends in part on the investigator or analyst who in effect obtained

1 this material and what type of description they gave to it.

2 Again, all of the investigations in the pre-trial phase,

3 pre-indictment phase went by code-names so that we could discuss them

4 without other people knowing what they were all about. Some

5 investigators will have logged that in and it will say video material

6 relevant to the Tusk [phoen] investigation, for example. That will have

7 absolutely no meaning to -- to Dr. Seselj or members of his team. That

8 will tell me, as someone in OTP, everything I need to know about what

9 case that tape concerns.

10 So I'm going to need -- I'm going to need to do a little bit of

11 homework here in terms of what those descriptions look like, what type of

12 information I can pull out of the database, what this spreadsheet that is

13 going to be produced is going to look like, how many hundreds or

14 thousands of pages is it going to run to because of the detail or lack

15 thereof of the descriptions, et cetera.

16 So I don't -- the short answer is I don't know until I have the

17 chance to have members of the staff in effect produce a -- produce a

18 dummy chart for me to look at and see if that's something that's going to

19 helpful at all in terms of the descriptive fields and what I can pull out

20 of the database. So I don't know what this list will look like. I don't

21 know how long this list will be. I don't know if those descriptive

22 fields are going to be sufficient to allow Dr. Seselj to make any sense

23 out of it.

24 Once I'm able to do that, perhaps next week I can come back with

25 a sample, if you will, and show everyone what this type of list would

1 look like, give you an indication of how many pages it would be. And as

2 I said, if I'm going to be ordered or required to produce that in the

3 Serbian language, then we're going to be talking about an exercise that

4 obviously is going to take many months before in all likelihood before

5 we're able to produce such a thing. And again, that's going to mean

6 other transcription or translation projects will have to be re-evaluated

7 because we do have, you know, limited translation resources available to

8 us.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's assume you identify a

10 video which is related to Zvornik and involves volunteers. Well, that's

11 not going to take months. The purpose for Mr. Seselj, as far as I can

12 see, well, for him it's important to have a list and the titles of the

13 videos, and then he can say whether he's interested or not, and if he's

14 interested, then he will ask you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show you my

16 goodwill and make your job easier, sir. Yesterday I insisted on this

17 being submitted to me in Serbian for principle reasons and I hope that

18 you have all understood why I insisted.

19 I can accept your list in English because all the names are in

20 Serbian, all the geographical name locations -- locations are in Serbian

21 and the times and the dates I understand. The timing is very important

22 here. Even if it is delivered to us in English, if it is delivered to us

23 as soon as possible, that's okay, but do not, please, believe that from

24 now on everything else will be accepted in English. In order to make

25 your life easier, I will now accept for this material to be accepted in

1 English but nothing else.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

3 continues] ... chapter, Mr. Mundis will conduct his research work and get

4 back to you. As soon as he has prepared a list, he will disclose this

5 list to you.

6 Now we have to finish, Mr. Seselj.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, there is another

8 problem that I wish to raise. I also have at my disposal certain video

9 footages that are relevant for the events and the times pertaining to the

10 indictment. I want to show some of the video footages in my

11 cross-examination of these -- of some witnesses. However, there is a

12 procedure in the detention unit that disallows me to do so. According to

13 the procedure in place, every DVD has to be inspected and it is only then

14 that it is decided whether the accused can have it or not.

15 Now I'm asking the registry upon your request to find a solution.

16 When my legal advisors bring DVDs to me that they are able to hand them

17 over directly to me maybe with a sticker like the registry does for the

18 video footages of the trial so that nobody can take these videos from me.

19 I have to personally determine which videos I'm going to use and

20 which not. Why should the prison administration be allowed to view all

21 these before me? I believe that this violates the essential rights

22 arising from my defence.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Together with the legal officer

24 of the Trial Chamber we would look into the matter and see whether this

25 is feasible or not, because as you know, the prison commander is

1 responsible for anything that comes in and that leaves the prison. In my

2 country, the relationship between an accused and his lawyer, well, this

3 is a privileged relationship and is confidential, but in case I'm not

4 quite sure because the administration of the prison may say if I don't

5 check to see what's in it, I don't know what it may contain. This could

6 perhaps jeopardise order and security. I don't know. I'm not able and I

7 don't think my colleagues on the Bench are able to provide you with an

8 answer today, but we will let you know as soon as possible.

9 We have a few minutes left. We have two witnesses that are going

10 to be coming next week - I won't tell you whether there are any

11 protective measures or not - which means that on Tuesday we shall start

12 at 8.30, and the legal officer will tell you how much time will be

13 granted to the Prosecution and the accused for his cross-examination.

14 That's right. There are two witnesses who are going to be coming next

15 week, Mr. Mundis; is that right?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please be given their

17 pseudonyms at least because I don't know who they are. One is a BS and

18 the other --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're going to learn that

20 straight away.

21 MR. MUNDIS: That's -- that's exactly what I wanted to say. On

22 Tuesday carrying over into Wednesday, the Prosecution will call VS-1013.

23 That's 1013. We would expect his evidence to begin on Tuesday and carry

24 over into Wednesday. On Wednesday, then, we would call VS-1015. That's

25 1015 to commence on Wednesday and hopefully to finish on Thursday, the

1 27th.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. How much time,

3 Mr. Mundis? How much did you ask for 1013?

4 MR. MUNDIS: I believe we asked for three hours for 1013, and we

5 had initially asked for two hours for 1015. I believe we might need a

6 little bit more time for 1015, but of course we're entirely in the

7 Chamber's hands in that respect.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll see. And the

9 legal officer will tell you by e-mail at the earliest convenience. Very

10 well.

11 Mr. Seselj.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still need to say that there is

13 nothing about VS-33 and this was announced on Thursday. It is only now

14 that I learn that these two witnesses that you have just mentioned will

15 appear next week and I never heard that before, just so that you know.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At any rate, next week we'll

17 have VS-1013 and VS-1015. That's for certain.

18 Very well. We shall reconvene on Tuesday at 8.30.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day

21 of March, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.

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