Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5167

 1                           Tuesday, 25 March 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-67-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12     Today is Tuesday, the 25th of March, 2008.  My greetings to the

13     Prosecution team.  Good morning, Mr. Seselj.  And good morning, Witness.

14             Let's first move into closed session.

15                           [Closed session]

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

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Page 5168











11    Pages 5168-5183 redacted. Closed session
















Page 5184

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, if I may just as a preliminary

 6     mention one issue about timing.  I think the Prosecution had foreseen to

 7     have this witness testify for three hours and the next witness for two

 8     hours.  I understand Your Honours have issued a Scheduling Order the

 9     other way around, so you have two hours for this witness and three hours

10     for the next witness.

11             I will endeavour to complete the testimony of this witness in two

12     hours, but I might run into problems with this, so I would ask for Your

13     Honours' indulgence and --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we were told

15     last week, I think Mr. Mundis said this, that the first witness was

16     supposed to be scheduled for Tuesday and the second witness for Wednesday

17     and Thursday.  So if the witness is to be heard on Wednesday and

18     Thursday, it would be best to have three hours for the second witness and

19     two hours for the first witness.

20             However, if you believe that this witness can stay and Tuesday

21     and Thursday, and the other only one day we'll move around as you like.

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm grateful, Your Honours, and we try to speed

23     things up as much as possible in any event.

24                           Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, what is your ethnicity?  Sorry.  I forgot my


Page 5185

 1     microphone, I believe.

 2             Mr. Witness, what is your ethnicity.

 3        A.   I'm a Bosniak Muslim.

 4        Q.   Did you do military service?

 5        A.   I did.

 6        Q.   In what part of the armed forces?

 7        A.   Artillery and rocket units, the anti-aircraft defence.  A special

 8     unit.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And would the usher please call up 65 ter number

11     2869.

12             Your Honours, this is a map.  I'm just waiting for that to come

13     up.  Could we zoom in on sort of the middle where we have -- yeah, let's

14     try to do that.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you see the town of Zvornik and the town of

16     Karakaj on this map?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What is the distance between Zvornik and Karakaj approximately?

19        A.   I believe it's about three kilometres.

20        Q.   And the area of Karakaj, can you describe that?  What is in

21     Karakaj?

22        A.   Karakaj was an industrial zone with all the factories there.

23     Zvornik was a valley and all the factories and manufacturing plants were

24     in Karakaj.

25        Q.   And --

Page 5186

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, we're done with this exhibit.  I would

 2     like to tender this.  We might want to have this in as an exhibit.  It's

 3     also included --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit number

 6     P00302, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you tell us what was the relationship like

 9     between Muslims and Serbs when you grew up?

10        A.   The relationship was good.

11        Q.   And --

12        A.   Especially -- I'm sorry.  The relationship was good.  I don't

13     know.  I grew up in a house in which this was not an -- important at all.

14     My father was a patriot and 90 per cent of my friends were Serbs, and I

15     still have contacts to many of them to this very day.

16        Q.   And in which town did you grow up?  Maybe I should have asked

17     that first.

18        A.   I grew up in Zvornik.

19        Q.   Did there come a time when the relationship between Serbs and

20     Muslims changed?

21        A.   The relationship started changing let me say when the Serb

22     national consciousness started waking up.  I don't know how deep or how

23     far I should go into the matter, but it all started in Gazimestan with

24     various demonstrations, songs that praised the Serb nationality.  It all

25     started, but I never believed at the time that this could all end up in a

Page 5187

 1     war.

 2        Q.   Approximately what year are we talking about?

 3        A.   Approximately we're talking about the relationship which started

 4     deteriorating in 1988, albeit slowly.  There were first rallies in

 5     Kosovo, and the Serbs started singing their songs.  I'm talking about

 6     rock singers who would become members of the academy of sciences and

 7     arts.  And this was all part of the plan that had been envisaged by the

 8     Serbian academy of sciences and arts.  So it went across the board in the

 9     former Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Moving some years ahead to the spring of 1992.  Did

11     you live in Zvornik at that time?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What --

14        A.   I lived --

15        Q.   Were there -- were there -- were there signs at the time that

16     there would be an armed conflict?

17        A.   There were signs.  First of all, lorries full of reservists were

18     passing through Zvornik.  There were all sorts of military convoys.  They

19     passed through Zvornik and Mali Zvornik, and those reservists on the way

20     back from the theatres of war would shoot, would fire in the air.  But

21     the relationship in the town itself did deteriorate, but they were not so

22     tense as to lead to a conflict because we still socialised amongst

23     ourselves and we all very often joked promising each other that we would

24     guard each other's backs.  It was very difficult to imagine that people

25     that you lived with all your life could turn against you, and then on the

Page 5188

 1     Karakaj bridge, I don't know, there were political meetings day and night

 2     with showdowns of political parties, and on the eve of the war there were

 3     some lorries full of reservists who were being taken to Celopek and

 4     Rocevic villages for military training.

 5             I wanted to see them, and on one occasion I and my neighbour who

 6     wanted to buy something, we went there to see whether that was the truth,

 7     and really when we went down to Celopek there were a lot of troops there.

 8     We stopped for a while.  We had a drink, and nobody minded us being

 9     there, but they were involved in heavy military training there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And when approximately was this?

11        A.   This was approximately at the beginning of March.  Actually, I

12     don't know whether it was at the beginning of March or in mid-March, but

13     in any case it was at the beginning of March because we could not

14     understand that this all might lead to -- to a war in the 20th Century.

15        Q.   Did you see signs that the Serb population in Zvornik was

16     preparing or taking steps because of an upcoming conflict?

17        A.   As far as measures are concerned, one weekend before the

18     barricades were put up most of the Serbs were not in Zvornik.  They had

19     left.  They -- they loaded their cars full of valuables and they went to

20     a village near Zvornik.  The reservists were there but nobody counted on

21     a war, on a large-scale war.  We thought, okay, even if something

22     happened they would try to take something.  Maybe they would fail.  We

23     would be able to defend ourselves, and that was our line of thinking at

24     the time.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I have a

Page 5189

 1     follow-up question.  You're telling us that the Serbs left Zvornik.  Now,

 2     to your knowledge did they leave Zvornik because they were ordered to

 3     leave town or was it a spontaneous move because they were afraid, because

 4     when you're afraid you just flee, or could there be a third reason behind

 5     this?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it was

 7     a dress rehearsal.  I believe that they had all received orders, because

 8     it would really be strange or even impossible that so many of them were

 9     not there.  And if I may add to that, some of my good friends with whom I

10     still socialised, because there was no reason for us not to socialise, I

11     heard comments to the effect, "This is not boding well.  We don't know

12     what's happening."

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you see any military equipment being stationed

15     so as to be defending or in a position to defend the bridges over the

16     Drina River?

17        A.   On the Karakaj bridge there was a tank.  It was put there.

18        Q.   And was that before the takeover?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, did -- to your knowledge were steps taken on the Muslim side

21     to somehow prepare for a conflict and, if so, were you yourself involved

22     in that?

23        A.   There were no organised measures in place.  People organised

24     themselves spontaneously.  Everybody tried to protect their families and

25     themselves the best way they could.

Page 5190

 1             During the night, for example, in town, because there were

 2     rumours about various incidents, people started keeping guard

 3     spontaneously in the street because they were afraid.  And the guards

 4     were mixed until the very last moment.  We just tried to protect

 5     ourselves or alert others to possible danger.

 6             I personally, when I heard and saw what was going on, I also

 7     undertook some security measures.  My house was next to the forest, and

 8     that's why I purchased a Kalashnikov automatic weapon on the black market

 9     in order to protect myself and my family.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   I lended that automatic weapon to the others who were standing

12     guard to be able to protect themselves if attacked.  As for any other

13     type of organisation there was nothing in place.  People just

14     spontaneously went out to the street, took up weapons, and tried to

15     protect themselves and their families.

16             Shall I continue?

17        Q.   No, sorry.  I'm just waiting to allow for the translation to come

18     through.  I know it's a bit artificial as a discussion, but we have to do

19     it this way.

20             Do you remember any media reportings about the situation in

21     Zvornik prior to the attacks?

22        A.   Yes.  There was a order, activity in order to find a measure to

23     avoid war.  Nobody really wanted war, because war means suffering.

24             The day before the first shots were fired in Zvornik, on Belgrade

25     TV a report was aired according to which there had been sporadic shooting

Page 5191

 1     in Zvornik and allegedly there were 11.000 Green Berets on the Kula

 2     tower.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We'll get back to those Green Berets a bit later, but

 4     where were you when the attack on Zvornik started?

 5        A.   I was at home asleep.

 6        Q.   And how did you first learn about the attack?

 7        A.   My father woke me up.  He was obviously scared, and he told me

 8     there's shooting.  Still half a sleep I said, "No.  It's impossible.

 9     You're imagining things.  It's in your head."  And he said, "No, no.

10     There is shooting going on."

11             Then I got up and I really heard from the direction of Karakaj

12     shots being fired.  You know, it's a new feeling, a new thing, and it's a

13     mixture of fear and curiosity that brought me outdoors.  I wanted to see

14     what was going on.

15             I could hear shots from the direction of Karakaj and Vidakova

16     Njiva, and then a total of three shells fell.  They started falling, and

17     I believe that there were three altogether.  And then cannon fire was

18     opened.

19        Q.   Did the cannon fire hit -- hit the city?

20        A.   In the vicinity of my house one shell fell on the house of Pero

21     the painter who was a Serb.  That's what I know about one of them.  I

22     don't know about the other two and whether they did any damage.  The rest

23     were -- was cannon fire, which was open, but they tried to spare the town

24     because I believe that the intention was to preserve as much of the town

25     before they took over.

Page 5192

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, you're telling

 2     about a shell.  Does this mean that there was artillery fire before the

 3     forces entered?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  That shell fell.  I

 5     don't know where it was fired from.  I'm not a military expert.  And then

 6     the artillery fire was opened just to instill fear.  There were

 7     detonations all the time.  There were explosions all the time, and the

 8     feeling we had was that we were really in war, and this created a great

 9     deal of panic among the population, and people would just grab their

10     children, get into their cars, start fleeing.  Those who were closer to

11     the bridge started fleeing towards Serbia, and those who were a bit

12     further away from the bridge started running towards Kula and Divic.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, did I understand you correctly that you went

15     outside?  Just yes or no?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you see any of the attacking forces or could you only hear

18     them?

19        A.   At first we could only hear them.  A few of us neighbours

20     gathered amongst the houses.  We were standing there.  And at one point

21     bullets started flying, and we could see a sniper shooting in our

22     direction from one of the high-rise buildings.  And then we started

23     running.  We took shelter behind a different house.  We were happy that

24     nothing had happened to us.  We were also a bit afraid and in order to

25     diminish that fear I told a neighbour --

Page 5193

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, in the French

 2     translation you talked about a sniper who had a Z-16, but the -- in the

 3     English version the type of weapon has not been mentioned.

 4             Could you please confirm that there was a sniper using a weapon

 5     that -- for which you gave us the characteristics?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall and as far

 7     as I was able to observe, there were only snipers on the buildings.  It

 8     was very hard at that distance, which must have been at least 800 metres

 9     to 1 kilometre, using ordinary military weapons to target with such

10     precision.  I couldn't see that he was a sniper, but because the shots

11     were fired with such precision we assumed he was.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What kind of weapon did the

13     sniper have?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of weapon this was I

15     couldn't tell you.  All I know is that we saw that from that building a

16     man holding a rifle fired shots.  It didn't look like an automatic rifle

17     as far as we could tell, and we assumed that he was a sniper.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:

19        Q.   The -- am I understanding your answer correctly?  You didn't see

20     the forces that were approaching from Karakaj?

21        A.   No, we did not.

22        Q.   Have you -- have you -- had you heard before the attack what

23     forces were at Karakaj?

24        A.   Yes, I had.  I hadn't seen them, but I did hear about them.

25        Q.   From who?

Page 5194

 1        A.   Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and the several local adherents were

 2     standing, were manning the barricades.

 3        Q.   And who told you that?

 4        A.   I heard that from several sides and also my father told me he had

 5     been stopped at the check-point and checked.  He recognised them.  One

 6     sort had cockades on their heads and wore beards, and the others had

 7     insignia on their uniforms.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You -- getting back to the attack.  So you were being

 9     targeted by a sniper.  You ran away.  You were sitting in another

10     position.  Were you then being shot at again?

11        A.   Yes.  I joked with that neighbour of mine, and I said to him,

12     "Have you found time to get married?"  "Well, at least I had time to have

13     a honeymoon, but you don't."  He then gave me a little push and he said,

14     "Do you still care about that?"  And as he gave me a little push, at that

15     point where my head had been a bullet landed.  We were sheltering behind

16     the houses, and we started running.

17        Q.   And where did you --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  This is a

19     question of a technical nature.

20             You were talking to your neighbour, and at that moment he jolts

21     you and you realise that there was a bullet impact.  How were you dressed

22     then?  Were you in civilian clothes?  Were you wearing a camouflage

23     uniform?  How were you dressed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was wearing my leather jacket,

25     jeans, and shoes.  Civilian clothes.

Page 5195

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 2        Q.   And then you -- you started running.  And just because we have

 3     limited time, where did you ultimately go to on that day?

 4        A.   I began to run.  I was first, and I arrived at a fence.  A woman

 5     had put up a fence around her vegetable garden.  It was a wooden fence.

 6     I couldn't get through, and I was so frightened that I managed to pull

 7     out the planks.  I threw myself down on the ground.  Bullets kept

 8     whizzing around us.  I could feel pebbles and bits of earth flying around

 9     my head, but fortunately they didn't hit us.  And then we saw that that

10     sniper was shooting from the line pit.  We crawled along and managed to

11     get out along the road going to Kula Grad along which everyone was

12     fleeing.

13        Q.   And did you go to Kula Grad yourself?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   Did you go back to Zvornik after of that?

16        A.   Yes.  On that night I returned to Zvornik, but I went back to my

17     house to get some things with some of the neighbours who had forgotten to

18     take some things with them.  We heard shooting from all sides, and that

19     night we went back to Kula Grad through the woods.

20        Q.   And did you -- did you then returning to Kula Grad the next day?

21        A.   That night, in the course of the night, we went back to Kula

22     Grad.  We spent the night there.

23        Q.   And did you have your rifle when you were in Kula Grad?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  But that morning my father took me with him, and I

25     handed the rifle to a friend of mine.

Page 5196

 1        Q.   When you were in Kula Grad did you see 11.000 Green Berets?

 2        A.   That's ridiculous.  No.

 3        Q.   Did you see any?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.  There were some people who in one way or another

 5     managed to get weapons.  There were a few reserve policemen, and to the

 6     best of my recollection that was all.  There may have been as many as 40

 7     armed men that I was able to see.

 8        Q.   Was Kula Grad defended, so to speak, for -- for a while?

 9        A.   Yes, Kula Grad was defended.  On that first morning I left.  I

10     went with my father to a hamlet to stay with some relatives, and then I

11     saw that they didn't really have a lot of food.  So I went to Divic.  I

12     spent a few days there.  Then I went back to that hamlet again, and then

13     I went back to Kula Grad a day before it fell.

14        Q.   And I hope I may be allowed to lead on this point, it should be a

15     matter of no controversy.

16             Am I correct that Kula Grad has a hill, and on top of that hill

17     is an old fortress?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And was that the position that was defended for a while?

20        A.   Yes.  There where the old fortress is, and in another part where

21     there is the village.  The whole village, together with the old fortress,

22     was defended.

23             If I may, I would like to add that on that first day -- or,

24     rather, that morning when I fled to that hamlet with my father, tanks

25     from Serbia shot at Kula Grad.  There were three tanks located in Mali

Page 5197

 1     Zvornik.  But as the fortress was very big and strong, not much damage

 2     was done.  I don't know how many shots were fired, but I do know that

 3     they fired shots and we were afraid.

 4             When I was at Divic, you could see very well where they were and

 5     how they were shooting and how the stones were flying around.

 6        Q.   Now, when -- when Kula Grad fell, did you try to flee and, if so,

 7     where were you trying to flee to?

 8        A.   We did try to flee, yes.  It was hell.  There was firing from all

 9     sides.  We had no weapons, so a friend of mine and I started to flee.

10             On the other side of Kula Grad tanks were moving in the direction

11     of Tuzla, and therefore we started running towards the village of

12     Kamenica.  People were fleeing.  It was like a war movie.  Everybody took

13     whatever possessions they could.  They put them on a horse or in a car.

14     They would take their children, and they would all flee.

15             We fled also.  We went in the direction of Kamenica.  They kept

16     shelling us constantly.

17             That night we arrived in a big village called Cerska.

18        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but did you ultimately try to reach

19     Tuzla?

20        A.   We intended to, but a group of people who had been at Kula Grad

21     and had weapons managed to break through to Tuzla, but we didn't dare.

22     There was shooting coming from that side and we saw tanks on that side

23     and houses burning there.  So we didn't dare go in that direction.

24        Q.   Did you -- could you describe the areas you moved through just in

25     a general way.  Did you see any villages in the areas you passed through

Page 5198

 1     and, if so, had there been attack on those villages?

 2        A.   There was a village behind Kula Grad.  I didn't know those

 3     villages very well before the war, but I learned later on this village is

 4     called Marchcici, a village or a hamlet or something.  I don't know what

 5     it is exactly.  And there were houses burning up there and from there a

 6     tank was firing at Kula.  This was on higher ground than Kula was.  And

 7     we fled down to Josanica and there were several villages there, several

 8     hills.  People fled.  There were groups of refugees.  And we would come

 9     across copses of trees and wooded areas where people were hiding, elderly

10     people, children.

11             We came across a group of people who were fighting at Kula or had

12     been fighting at Kula, and they had a wounded man with them who died

13     later on.

14             Everybody in those villages was packing up.  Houses were

15     beginning to burn.  And from the hills we could see all those villages

16     and everybody packed up and started fleeing in the direction of Cerska.

17        Q.   Ultimately were you captured?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were you with anyone when you were captured?

20        A.   No.  There were five of us.

21        Q.   Could you give us the name, the name of the four others?

22        A.   Could we move into private session, because I don't want to

23     reveal my identity.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private

25     session.


Page 5199

 1                           [Private session]

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

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 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  I'm sorry, counsel.  Your Honours, we're back in

22     open session.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:

24        Q.   Sir, what will dates approximately were you captured, if you

25     know?


Page 5200

 1        A.   The 4th of May.  1992, yes.  The day when Tito died.

 2        Q.   I think we have to skip ahead in the story a bit.  And maybe --

 3     were you later in that day taken to a place where you were detained?

 4        A.   Later we were -- shall I go in chronological order or do you just

 5     want me to tell you where we ended up that day?

 6        Q.   I think in the interest of time we just have to go to where you

 7     ended up.

 8        A.   We ended up in Standard, a former footwear factory in Zvornik, in

 9     the building of the management on the second floor.

10        Q.   And --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you get closer

12     to the microphone, please, when you speak, because it's difficult for the

13     interpreters to hear you properly.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like to call up 65 ter number 4052.  There we

15     are.

16        Q.   Is this the Standard shoe factory?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I've been quite

18     patient, Mr. President, especially when we were dealing with personal

19     family relations and I didn't want to object when leading questions were

20     put, but with respect to this photograph, the proper question would be,

21     "What is this," and not, "Is this this or that."  So please tell the

22     Prosecutor to examine properly.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Marcussen, just show

24     the photograph and ask him what's on the photograph.  I know that you

25     tried to gain time.

Page 5201

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 2        Q.   Yeah.  I thought these matters were not disputed by the accused,

 3     but -- do you know what this is?

 4        A.   The Standard footwear factory, but we were looked up in the

 5     management building.

 6        Q.   And can that part of the factory be seen on this photograph?

 7        A.   Yes.  No, no.  No, you can't really, no.

 8        Q.   Were you still with your four friends at this time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Where were you placed in the management building or the

11     administrative building?

12        A.   They put us on the second floor.  When you stand in front of the

13     building that's the second floor on the left-hand side.  As you go up the

14     stairs where you enter the building, you go up to the second floor, it's

15     to the right and then the door of that big room is straight ahead.

16        Q.   The room that you were taken into, were there any other people

17     detained there when you came?

18        A.   Yes.  First they searched us, then they took us in.  Inside the

19     room there were some people I knew.  Some were from Divic and others were

20     from Zvornik.

21        Q.   When your searched, were anything taken from you or were you just

22     searched?

23        A.   In front of the SUP station in Zvornik they confiscated my gold

24     bracelet and gold chain.

25        Q.   Am I correct that this is in the part of the chronology that we

Page 5202

 1     jumped over?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   So at the Standard factory they just did another check of you,

 4     but nothing was taken from you; is that correct?

 5        A.   No, it wasn't.

 6        Q.   So what -- you were searched and then things were taken away?

 7        A.   They searched us and then they took us inside that room, and then

 8     a military policeman arrived.  I don't remember what his rank was.  They

 9     called him Mrki, and first he took away two people to give statements.

10     After that he came back and took me and a friend of mine to write

11     statements.  When we entered the room there was a piece of paper there

12     and a pencil.  He paced up and down the room and he told us to write down

13     where and when we were born, why were born, and where we had been from

14     the time the shooting started until today.

15        Q.   When you gave a statement were you in any way mistreated?

16        A.   No.  He told us that he was a decent man, that he wasn't going to

17     beat anyone, but if somebody came and asked us if we had been beaten we

18     should say that we had been kicked in the kidneys or beaten in the

19     kidneys, and then he rattled the door and we made some noise to make it

20     sound as if he was beating us, but he didn't actually touch us.

21        Q.   But did he say he had received instructions to beat you?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, he did.  He said he had been issued with orders to

23     beat everyone who had been brought in while questioning them.

24        Q.   The people that were guarding the prisoners at the Standard

25     factory, how did they look?  What kind of -- were they wearing uniforms?

Page 5203

 1        A.   They were wearing olive-grey, drab uniforms of the sort worn by

 2     the JNA, and the white straps worn by the police.  The military police,

 3     that is.

 4        Q.   Do you know who their chief was at the Standard factory?

 5        A.   I can't be a hundred per cent certain, but judging by the way

 6     they behaved in certain situations I would say it was Niski.  I can't be

 7     absolutely certain whether that was actually correct and whether it

 8     related to the entire military police.

 9        Q.   This person, Niski, how did you learn his -- his name?

10        A.   Well, that's what everyone called him.  I'm not aware that he

11     harmed anyone throughout my stay there.  In my opinion -- or, rather, I

12     heard some people say he was Arkan's man.  Others said he was Seselj's

13     man.  I believe he was Arkan's man, but he always tried to protect the

14     prisoners as far as we could tell.  I don't know what happened elsewhere,

15     in other places, I wasn't there, but he's the only one I can really have

16     a good opinion of, actually.

17        Q.   Is Niski a real name or is that a nickname?

18        A.   Well, it's a nickname everybody used.

19        Q.   While you were in the Standard factory were you given any work to

20     do?

21        A.   We cleaned the rooms.  Various units were stationed there.  I

22     think there was the sabotage units on one side, the reconnaissance men on

23     another.  When you went up onto the first floor to the right were the --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness slow

25     down, please.  This is too fast for the interpreters.

Page 5204

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 2        Q.   The interpreters ask you to speak a little slower because they

 3     have difficulties keeping up.

 4        A.   Forgive me.

 5        Q.   I think -- could you just tell us once again what units were

 6     there, because I think that got lost.  If you would repeat that part of

 7     your answer, please.

 8        A.   There were reconnaissance men and sabotage men on the ground

 9     floor.  On the first floor there were people from Loznica because we

10     brought gets in for them, and the military police.  I think it was the

11     military police, yes.  And on the second floor, as you went up the stairs

12     on the right-hand side were we prisoners, and on the left-hand side were

13     Seselj's men from Kraljevo.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, we'll go more into the identity of

15     these -- a number of these different units and members of them, but I

16     think the time for the break might be coming up.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We shall have a 20-minute

18     break now.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.21 a.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please resume.

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  We're missing a player.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  Very well.  So the

24     hearing is resumed.

25             Mr. Marcussen, if I understood you right, you told us you needed

Page 5205

 1     three hours with this witness and two hours with the next one.  So the --

 2     of course you're using three hours, which means that Mr. Seselj will also

 3     be given three hours for his cross-examination.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  T0hank you, Your Honours.  Before I continue, I

 5     would like to tender the photograph of the Standard factory, that was

 6     4052.  I forgot to ask for an exhibit number for that one I'm afraid.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit number

 9     P00303.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, instead

11     of having the Prosecutor find us the photograph of the administrative

12     building of Standard so that that can be an exhibit, because the witness

13     actually said that the prisoners were put up in the administrative

14     building of the Standard factory and that there were either members of

15     the army there or whoever, now he's sending us a photograph which is

16     completely irrelevant.  So if they don't have the photograph of the

17     administrative building they can send somebody to take a photograph.

18             I don't know why this is being tendered at all.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently you do not have the

20     photograph of the administrative building.  Is that so?

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, in -- did you give a statement to the Office of the

23     Prosecutor in 1996?

24        A.   I did, yes.

25        Q.   And when you gave the statement did you make a number of sketches

Page 5206

 1     to indicate various locations you had been in?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   And those sketches, did you sign and date them when you had drawn

 4     them?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I'd like to call up Exhibit number 2208.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judges, I can see that

 8     several times on several occasions you very pedantically intervened when

 9     the Prosecutor asked the witness to identify something that had been

10     previously marked on the photograph.  You stepped in.  Now the Prosecutor

11     is presenting something which the witness at one time long ago drew.  I

12     think that that is impermissible regardless of the fact that it doesn't

13     have any effect as far as I'm concerned, maybe it's an authentic

14     rendition.  I have no reason to doubt the fact because what the witness

15     has said so far is in order, but I think that this is impermissible,

16     because since 1996 it's been 12 years, and the OTP staff had an

17     opportunity of photographing everything, drawing up precise sketches and

18     then putting that to the witness so that the witness could identify them

19     in precise terms, not to have a sketch which is 12 years old presented

20     here for the witness to identify it now.

21             So let's hear from the Prosecutor first how this sketch was made

22     in the first place.  Was it an aerial view or where this was sketched

23     from.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the witness drew

25     this sketch on the 29th of September, 1996.  I suppose that the

Page 5207

 1     investigator who was with him and whose name must be in the statement,

 2     Mazhar Inayat was the name of the investigator, he must have asked the

 3     witness to locate the administrative building as well as the various

 4     individuals and units.  They didn't have any photograph.  If they had any

 5     photographs, it would have been much easier, and so the witness drew this

 6     himself.

 7             We are interested in knowing who was on the right-hand side on

 8     the second floor.  That's the most relevant for you.

 9             So, Mr. Prosecutor.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, let me first ask you is this something that -- is

12     this a sketch that you remember making?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And I can see there is some handwriting on it in -- in your

15     language, and there's some handwriting in English.  Who made -- who wrote

16     in -- the things that are written in your language on the sketch?

17        A.   I wrote that.

18        Q.   And the things that are written in English, who wrote that?

19        A.   I think it was the investigator when he asked me subsequent

20     questions, and then by -- based on the explanations he would add the

21     floors.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, there is a cross marked in the -- what I believe

23     is the administrative building.  There is a box with a cross in it.  What

24     is that?

25        A.   That's where we prisoners were.

Page 5208

 1        Q.   And what is written next to the cross?

 2        A.   It says "Prisoners" in abbreviated form.

 3        Q.   And then where is a number 1, what does it say there?

 4        A.   They are the Seselj's men and the Kraljevcani.

 5        Q.   And number 2?

 6        A.   Rosnica Nidi [phoen], war -- military police.

 7        Q.   And number 3?

 8        A.   Number 3 was the military police.

 9        Q.   Number 4?

10        A.   The reconnaissance men and the others were the sabotage people.

11        Q.   And when you say the others is that number 5, or what is number

12     5?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  Number 5 were sabotage or diversionary forces.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, how did you know that

15     all these people were on the ground floor or on the first floor and you

16     yourself being on the second floor?  Well, we can understand where you

17     were since you were a prisoner, but how did you know that there was this

18     sabotage unit located on the ground floor?  How did you know all that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was taken to clean up the

20     premises, the building, a few times, and at every entrance to these

21     premises or rooms it would say "Diversionary," "Military police," "War

22     police," "Reconnaissance" and so on up on the doors.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Seselj's men, was that

24     mentioned on a piece of paper too?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It didn't say that there, but they

Page 5209

 1     were their rooms.  I know that because they would go there.  They would

 2     visit us from time to time.  And then they took out one of my friends for

 3     interrogation.  So that's where their rooms were, but I didn't go in

 4     there to clean them.  But I did go into all the others.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 6        Q.   Later on during your stay at the Standard factory and locations

 7     that we're going at that talk about later on, did you -- did you have a

 8     chance to learn more about the identity of the group of Seselj's men?

 9        A.   Could you repeat that question, please?  I'm not sure I

10     understood it.  I don't think the lady -- you're interested in the

11     identities that I learnt then or that I learn about later on, which?

12        Q.   No.  My question is did you -- apart from knowing about this

13     particular room when you were in the Standard factory, did you interact

14     or were you in close contact with men from the -- from Seselj's group at

15     various times throughout the events we're going to discuss today?

16        A.   I see.  Okay.  Yes.  Major Toro came by, and he took video

17     footage of us.  We had to give our first and last names and where we were

18     from.  And later on I heard that that record was broadcast over

19     television Serbia, and it said that a diversionary group had been

20     captured which tried to infiltrate itself into Zvornik.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak into the

22     microphone and speak up, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They observed us.  They would come

24     by and observe us.  They didn't beat us.  Vojvoda Cele came by once.  I

25     think that at that point he had one or two knives hitched onto his belt,

Page 5210

 1     and he was laughing and kept touching the knife.  And then Sasa from the

 2     Kraljevo group came by once, too, and he said, "A special man would come

 3     by.  He will talk to you.  You mustn't look him in the eyes, and you must

 4     address him with Vojvoda, sir, honourable Vojvoda sir, and if any of you

 5     knew who conducted what machinations in Zvornik and what business that

 6     they should tell him," and one of us stepped forward, and he went to

 7     those rooms, to those premises and stayed there for an hour and a half.

 8        Q.   When you gave a statement in 1996, that statement, have you had a

 9     chance to review that again before you have given testimony here today?

10        A.   Yes, I did have an occasion to review it.

11        Q.   And in the statement do you give a description of various members

12     of the Loznica group and the group of Seselj's men?

13        A.   Yes.  Of course to the best of my recollection, as I saw them.

14     And in principle, I always tried to determine their height judging by my

15     own height give or take 20 centimetres.  So it was what I saw with my own

16     eyes, roughly my assessment.

17        Q.   And in preparing for your testimony today, were you shown an

18     extract from your statement which is a list of these various members of

19     the two groups that you have identified in your statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And did you have and opportunity to look at the list to see if

22     the list was accurate?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And did you make some corrections to the list?

25        A.   Yes, to the best of my recollections.  And as far as I remember

Page 5211

 1     after such a long period of time, of course, to the extent that is

 2     possible that's what I did.

 3        Q.   If I may ask the usher to assist me showing the witness -- you

 4     can show this copy of the document.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, the

 6     witness is now being given a document not that he signed but that was

 7     compiled by the OTP allegedly on the basis of his statement, and now the

 8     witness is being led to repeat what he said about these nicknames.  I

 9     think that is absolutely impermissible.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Actually, this particular list a signed by the

12     witness.  It was -- the list itself has -- is in the system and has been

13     disclosed to the accused, and it has 65 ter number 7184.

14             During the proofing - and this is what I was going to ask the

15     witness about - the witness have as he said reviewed the list and has

16     made certain corrections to the list based on his memory.  He has signed

17     this list and he has signed and dated each of the corrections he has

18     made, and I was going to ask the witness to confirm his signature and

19     tender this document into evidence.

20             So that's what I was going to do, and I don't think there's a

21     basis for the objection.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, if I understand

23     you properly, in his prior statement he described six members of the

24     Seselj's men, Vojvoda Cele, Major Toro, Pufta, Zoks, Sasa, and Sava, and

25     you listed all of the descriptions in this document together with some

Page 5212

 1     minor corrections; is that right?

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  What we have done is we have, yes, isolated from

 3     the list and the statement what is the description, taken out anything

 4     which is -- and there were just a very few bits which are not mere

 5     descriptions.  So we only have descriptions of these persons.  And then

 6     the witness has reviewed the list, confirms that this corresponds to his

 7     memory.  He has signed the list yesterday, and because he had some

 8     amendments and additions, he have written those additions on the list and

 9     signed it.

10             The list is composed of two parts.  It has the so-called Loznica

11     group, which is also relevant to the case, and then we have the group of

12     Seselj's -- so-called Seselj's men.

13             This is measure to try to be able to get through their identity

14     quickly.  I'm happy to go through this with the witness as live evidence

15     before the witness starts looking at the list again.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This list bear the Exhibit

17     number 2195.  So it is the amended list compared to the initial prior

18     statement, is that so?

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I believe the exhibit number in your folder is

20     7184.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's right.  Yes.  I was

22     wrong.  Yes, 7184.

23             What are the details that he changed?

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Maybe I should distribute to Your Honours as well

25     a copy.  I wanted to lay a foundation first with the witness, but we can

Page 5213

 1     also do it the other way round.  If the usher would assist.

 2             As all this was done last night, I'm afraid the amendments and

 3     translations are in -- in handwriting.  Sorry, I -- we have copies for

 4     everyone, for the Judges and for the accused.

 5             So if Your Honours look at the bottom of the first page you will

 6     see there's a signature and a date.  And if Your Honours turn to the

 7     second page you will see corrections being made and in the English

 8     version you can see what those corrections are.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that this is

10     scandalous.  First I don't seem to have that number --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do not say that this is

12     scandalous or a scandal.  There is an investigator.  He met with the

13     witness in 1996, in September 1996, and this investigator asked the

14     witness to describe the individuals he saw when he was sweeping the

15     floors or the individuals who were in those premises.  Back then the

16     witness told us the story and gave an exact description, as far as he

17     could see, of those individuals.  For instance, Vojvoda Cele.  He was the

18     leader of the group from Kraljevo.  He was 172 centimetres tall, weighed

19     about 100 kilos, and he had a big stomach, shoulder length black hair, et

20     cetera.  So these are the kind of details provided by the witness.  And

21     during proofing the witness added some corrections, only a few of them,

22     and these are to be found on page 2 of the English version and on page 2

23     of the B/C/S version.  That's all.

24             So please do not say that this is a scandal.  This is merely a

25     means of eliciting identification information on the individuals who were

Page 5214

 1     there.  And rather than saying that this is a scandal, I draw your

 2     attention to the paragraph regarding Major Toro.  He seemed to have a

 3     military ID, so that could be a clue to the fact that he might have ban

 4     JNA member.

 5             So before you criticise, listen first to the Prosecution's

 6     questions.  You will have the cross-examination in order to crush this if

 7     you want.

 8             We are now trying to understand how this presence of these people

 9     was in the administrative building.  The witness is saying that there

10     were some of Seselj's men in that building, and we are trying now to find

11     out who these people are.

12             So please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, am I correct that you have made corrections and you

15     have signed this document where you made the corrections?

16             THE ACCUSED:  Now you're tolerating something amazing, an amazing

17     leading question.  Whether the Prosecutor's right.  Well, of course the

18     Prosecutor is always right in front of this Tribunal and that's not a

19     scandal I suppose.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It has already been stated several times by both

21     the president, and you yourself brought up the issue, it has already been

22     said that the document is signed.  We are really get into silly

23     formalities here.  There is no problem with a leading question in this

24     context.  And the witness has signed the pseudonym sheet and we can

25     compare straight away his signature on the pseudonym sheet and the

Page 5215

 1     signature on his statement.  This is just a waste of time.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this is a waste of time

 3     because the witness signed the document thereby authenticating the

 4     changes that he made, and these are really minor changes.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, just in terms of the basis for your description,

 8     when you have described these people you have listed, is that based only

 9     on what you saw at the Standard factory or did you subsequently see these

10     people in places where you were detained?

11        A.   This relates to my entire stay there.  Well, in different

12     concentration camps or different places.  It was on the basis of

13     everything that I drew my conclusions.  And then if I was able to stand

14     by them, then I would sort of try and remember how tall they were, how

15     much they weighed, and so on.

16        Q.   And when were you ultimately released from what you refer to as

17     concentration camps?

18        A.   On the 4th of December, 1992.

19        Q.   So did I understand your answer correctly to be that from May

20     until December 1992 you on a number of occasions had opportunity to see

21     these people maybe, yes?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.  Until July, the 15th of July.  That's when we

23     were transported to Batkovici.

24        Q.   Sorry, July, yes.  Now --

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could we first of all ascertain

Page 5216

 1     who were the so-called Seselj's men that he saw in the Standard shoe

 2     factory, because otherwise I'm a bit lost.  Does this list correspond to

 3     the entire period?  We were talking about the shoe factory.  Can we stick

 4     to that and see what this witness knows about the so-called Seselj's men

 5     who were there?

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, Your Honour.  I'm going to just do a few

 7     more questions about the identification, and then as we go through Your

 8     Honours will see a number of these names appearing in different contexts

 9     over the period of time that we have just been discussing, some of them

10     at the Standard factory, some of them at other locations that we're going

11     too talk about.  But I think it's useful to introduce these people at

12     this stage so we all know who we're dealing with, and then we will cover

13     their actions as we move through.  So I'll get to this in just a little

14     bit.

15        Q.   If we -- as we've been talking about the group of Seselj's men,

16     now you say about Toro that he had a military ID that identified him as

17     one of Seselj's men, or Seselj's army as it says in the English

18     translation.  Did you see the ID at any point in time?

19        A.   I didn't see the military ID.  My friend told me he had seen one.

20     And later on while I was working -- or looting for them in town,

21     actually, at one point when Major Toro gave Pufta lots of money, passed

22     over lots of money by standing beside a truck that was going to Kraljevo

23     and told him what to do, he gave him a black ID card on which, I think in

24     silver letters, I'm not sure whether they were silver or gold letters,

25     but anyway, there was a cockade on it, and it said "Serbian Radical

Page 5217

 1     Party."  So I assumed that it was some sort of ID card.  It was like the

 2     ID cards we had.  Whether it was a proper ID card or something else I

 3     can't say with certainty because I was standing on the truck and loading

 4     up, actually, and I saw this wad of notes.  You know, you can see when

 5     somebody hands a wad of notes to somebody else.  So that's what happened.

 6     He said, "Take this, and you know what you're supposed to do."

 7        Q.   And with respect to Sasa and Sava, do you know whether they held

 8     any -- did you ever hear about them holding a rank within Seselj's group?

 9        A.   I don't remember about Sasa, but of Sava I know -- well, I think

10     this was in June.  They talked and said he had been promoted, that Seselj

11     was in Zvornik and that he had promoted Sava to the rank of major.

12     That's what Zoks and Pufta said.  And Sava said that there was a

13     celebration and that the other two were promoted to captain.  Zoks and

14     Pufta.  Zoks and Pufta.  Pufta and Zoks.  They were also promoted.

15        Q.   And you yourself overheard that conversation?

16        A.   Yes.  And Zoks is a friend of mine.  Because -- he congratulated

17     him, and the other one thanked him, said thank you -- "I congratulate you

18     on your promotion."  And he said, "Thank you, thank you."

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak up.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you say, "He's a friend of

21     mine."  Did you know him beforehand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  That was a poor

23     interpretation.  I didn't say he was my friend, but my friend

24     congratulated him on his promotion.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that it's very difficult

Page 5218

 1     to hear the witness.  Could he please speak up.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, I know it's difficult, but you need to try to speak

 4     a bit louder because there's a difficulty in hearing what you're saying.

 5             The -- on your list you have a Loznica group.  Did you know

 6     members of this group before the war?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How did you know them?

 9        A.   Well, I knew them because us guys would go to Loznica frequently

10     and they would come to Zvornik from time to time, and it's a group of

11     people who were known to the police.  They had thick dossiers.  So when

12     you arrive in a town, for instance, then in principle you always try to

13     learn who -- whom you should avoid, and those were the people.  So you

14     did your best to say hello to them, pay them a round of drinks so that

15     they wouldn't touch you.

16             So as I say, we knew one another by sight.  I actually knew one

17     of them, if I can put it this way, the leader, Stuka, I knew him a little

18     better, not very well, but we would even have a drink from time to time.

19     I knew him through a girl that we knew.  I don't want to enter into any

20     intimate details.

21        Q.   This particular group, do you know who their leader was in

22     Zvornik?

23        A.   Stuka would always bring them, but their real leader was Gogic.

24     That's what they said.  That's what we heard.  Gogic did not come, but

25     once when we were loading up he had a red Golf car, he took us with him


Page 5219

 1     so that we could load up some things that he took a fancy to for his

 2     flat.

 3        Q.   Do you -- did you ever overhear a conversation which informed you

 4     about who they reported to outside the Standard factory?  Sort of higher

 5     up the chain, if I can put it that way?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Who did they report to first?

 8        A.   If we're coming to the day when they beat us, these people from

 9     Loznica, the Loznicani, then Niski stormed in, he stopped the beating and

10     argued with them, and then Stuka told him, "If something's not clear to

11     you, go and see Major Marko Pavlovic because he's the only one I receive

12     orders from."

13        Q.   And do you know what position Marko Pavlovic held in Zvornik?

14        A.   As far as I learnt from what the guards said amongst themselves,

15     he was the chief of the town defence at the time, as far as I understood

16     it.  The Serbian defence of the town.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if we could just go in for one question in

18     private session, please.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

20                           [Private session]

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 5220











11    Page 5220 redacted. Private session















Page 5221

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we round this

16     off, there's into dispute about the name, but there is dispute about the

17     Prosecutor's precision and his knowledge of the case.  The dispute about

18     the name has been resolved.  It has been resolved here before this OTP

19     and before the court in Belgrade.  There's nothing in dispute there.

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's on the record.

23     Let's move to open session unless we already are in open session.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record we are back in open

25     session.  Thank you, Your Honours.


Page 5222

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we need an order in

 2     order to redact line -- the lines that deal with the person tried in

 3     Belgrade.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It looks to me that that was said while we were

 5     still in private session.  No?  No... we can --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't really know.  Only the

 7     registrar can tell us.

 8             Open session on line 12, page 55.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I don't -- I don't think that the mere mention of

10     the identity of this -- it's not a concern for this case.  If Your Honour

11     is concerned about the identity of the accused before the war crimes

12     chamber in Belgrade, but this as itself we don't need a redaction.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the Chamber would rather

14     redact just to be extra careful.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, I think we have to skip ahead.  On the fifth day you

17     were in the Standard factory were -- were you mistreated on that day?

18        A.   Yes, we were.  On the fifth day of our stay there the people from

19     Loznica came.  Loznicani as they were known.  Stuka brought them in and

20     asked if anybody knew him.  We lowered our heads, although some of us did

21     know him, and then he said, "Okay.  Nobody knows him."  Then they lined

22     themselves, distributed themselves, and they started beating us.

23             One whom I knew as Dejan stood next to me and said, "I'll take

24     this one."  He hit me several times, and obviously there was one with his

25     pistol out of the holster guarding us if any of us tried to defend

Page 5223

 1     ourselves.

 2             After I suffered a few blows, although I had never practised any

 3     martial arts, he said, "This one seems to be a hard nut to crack."  And

 4     then one of the boxers came.  He hit me, and then I flew across the room

 5     like in the movie.

 6             They were beating us.  They took turns.  I would highlight the

 7     especially cruel persons who beat us.  His name was Lale, one of the

 8     Loznica guys.  He forced me to take off my shoes and socks, and then he

 9     beat me using a very thick electricity cable.  He beat me on the soles of

10     my feet, and he asked me whether it hurt, and I was crying out in pain.

11     I said that it did hurt a lot, and then he said, "This does not hurt.

12     This just drives you insane."

13             And then I would also like to highlight another person from the

14     Loznica group.  His name -- rather nickname was Macak.  He sported a

15     mustache.  He came to us.  He grabbed us by the loins and then -- I'll

16     try and demonstrate it with my own hands.  That's how he grabbed us by

17     the loins, and then he would twist our loins backwards.  And there was

18     another person standing in front of us hitting us with a boxer all the

19     time.  Stuka was telling them all this time --

20        Q.   When this movement was being done to you, were you being hit at

21     the same time?  Is that what you're saying?  One would hold you and

22     another one would hit you?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  That was it, and it was very painful because you

24     were -- your body was twisted backwards, and then another person would

25     run up to you and hit you.  And all this time Stuka was ordering them not

Page 5224

 1     to hit us in the head.  Whoever was crying or screaming, they would throw

 2     him on the ground.  They would push them against the ground with their

 3     knees, and then they would hit them with police baton.

 4             There was a girl with them.  She was barefoot.  She had a dark

 5     brown or black hair, long.  She sported a pony-tail.  And she must have

 6     been into martial arts, and she was using us as -- as sparring partners

 7     or punching bags.  She did not hit me.

 8             This lasted all the night.  The first time they left, let me say

 9     this, they gave us a pencil --

10        Q.   Let me stop you.  Let me just stop you.  You described that Lale

11     hit you under your feet.  Did he also hit you in other places?

12        A.   Yes.  He also hit me, and I forgot to say that he hit me on the

13     left knee and the leg above the left knee.  So my foot -- my leg went

14     numb.  I stopped feeling my leg.  He was beating me on the one and the

15     same place all the time.  So my leg went completely numb.  I could not

16     feel my leg.  I tried to protect it with my hand, but I couldn't.  I

17     could just feel tingles passing through my leg, and I can still have --

18     feel the same sensation sometimes in my left leg.

19        Q.   You said you were given -- eventually the beating stopped and you

20     were given a piece of paper.  Now, were you the only one being beaten or

21     were all of you in the room beaten?

22        A.   Everybody, yes, everybody.

23        Q.   And how many of you were there in the room at the time?

24        A.   Six.  I believe that there were eight of us, actually.

25        Q.   And how long did the beating last for, the period -- the thing

Page 5225

 1     you just have talked about?

 2        A.   It lasted until they were worn out.  I can't give you the exact

 3     time.  The first time they gave us pencils to write what we knew about

 4     similar people from Zvornik with criminal records, and then at that

 5     moment when they were worn out Niski would come.  He would interrupt

 6     them.  He would enter into arguments with them.  And he told us that this

 7     would not repeat again, and we told him that we had been given pencils

 8     and papers to write, and he said we did not have to do it.

 9             An hour or two hours later they returned and they started beating

10     us again following the same scenario, and finally when they were tired

11     Niski came back, argued with them, and then he yelled at the guards.  And

12     then what -- by that time we had already written on those papers what we

13     knew and what we didn't know.

14             The third time they came we hoped that they would not beat us

15     because we had filled those papers, and I would not want to repeat before

16     the Trial Chamber what they told us.  Stuka tore up the papers, said he

17     was not interested in that, and the last time we were beaten.  Towards

18     the morning Niski came and apologised for everything that had been done

19     and he pleaded with us not to tell about the whole event.  We agreed

20     hoping that that would stop any further beating.  And then he said that

21     we would be released, that he had made some inquiries about us in the

22     meantime and that we would be released.  And then --

23        Q.   Let me stop you.  Let me stop you there.  When you were

24     repeated -- you were repeatedly beaten, how many times did people come

25     back and beat you, if you remember?

Page 5226

 1        A.   I believe five times but I'm not sure, but this was repeated.

 2     I'm not a hundred per cent sure.  I don't know.  Three, maybe five or so.

 3     I don't know.  I believe it was five times.

 4        Q.   And were the beating of the same nature each time?

 5        A.   Every time of the same nature.  Some of them adopted their own

 6     pets to put it that way, and they would approach that person immediately.

 7     Obviously that's how they functioned.

 8        Q.   Was it the -- was it the same group that came back and beat you

 9     each time or were there different groups?

10        A.   That night just that group returned.  And Niski even yelled at

11     the guards, trying to tell them that they should not let that group in,

12     that they should use their arms, but it failed every time.  They all

13     returned again and again and beat us.  And that morning they put us in a

14     mini van.  They took us to in front of the building of the military

15     department in Zvornik.  We were driven by a military police.  Mrki was

16     among them as the person who interviewed us first.  He apologised to us,

17     said he could not do anything about that.

18             There's something I forgot to tell you.  After the last round of

19     beating, the guys from Loznica told us, "We shall meet you later today at

20     the Ekonomija.

21        Q.   You had also said that Niski had said that you would be released.

22     So what happened?  Did you actually go to Ekonomija or were you released?

23        A.   They brought us to the building of the military department.  They

24     started handing out passes.  The group from Loznica came, took those

25     passes from us, and they ordered the military police to take us to

Page 5227

 1     Ekonomija.  While we were at the Standard we heard all the worst things

 2     about Ekonomija.  The guards kept telling us that whoever went to

 3     Ekonomija did not come from there alive and that's what we feared the

 4     most.

 5             When we arrive at Ekonomija they took our belts, shoelaces,

 6     personal IDs, and whatever jewellery people had on them, and we could

 7     hear guards comment, saying, "Well, you won't need those any more

 8     anyway."

 9             And then they took us into the Ekonomija building.  Ekonomija is

10     actually a farm building near Zvornik, and I believe that the room that

11     we were in had served as a storage.  It was rather high.  It had a window

12     high up with bars on it.  It had a metal door.  It was -- it had a

13     concrete floor.  And on the door, on the metal door, there was a small

14     opening through which we could be handed food.

15             When they brought us there, there were between 15 and 20 people

16     there but I can't be exactly sure of the number.

17        Q.   Let's just have a look maybe at exhibit number -- 65 ter number

18     4147.

19             Mr. Witness, are you -- can you tell us if you know what this is?

20        A.   These are the building at the Ekonomija in Karakaj.  Next to the

21     large, big building is that smaller building where we were kept.  I'm

22     talking about the small building of which you can only -- see only the

23     roof.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, again this is the best picture we

25     have, so before we get an objection, I should just mention that.

Page 5228

 1             Your Honours, before I forget, I would like to tender this

 2     photograph.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00304.

 4     Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd also like to tender because I think I omitted

 6     that 65 ter number 2208.  That was the sketch from standard.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00305.

 8     Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And then, now that we are in this admin business,

10     I'd like to tender 7184.  That is a list of Seselj's men and the Loznica

11     men.  What I propose to do is to keep the 65 ter number but upload into

12     e-court the amended version that we showed today in court.  But if we

13     have an exhibit number for it already now then we can just do that change

14     later.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P00306.

16     Thank you, Your Honours.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, you were taken into the room.  There were 15 to 20

19     other people there at the time.  At the time when you came to the room

20     did you know the name of any of the these people?

21        A.   I knew a few people there, and I actually got to know all of them

22     during my stay there.  I learned their names.  But before that I already

23     knew some people.

24        Q.   Let's -- maybe I could ask that we go into private session so the

25     witness can say the identity of the people that he --


Page 5229

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

 2                           [Private session]

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25                           [Open session]


Page 5230

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 3        Q.   When you were in Ekonomija were the -- were prisoners being

 4     beaten there?

 5        A.   Yes.  Ekonomija was the hardest period of my incarceration.  I

 6     would not wish that experience upon anybody, even the worst enemy as our

 7     people like to say it.  Whoever wanted to beat people would come to

 8     Ekonomija.  It was a large farm away from the town, a bit away from the

 9     road.  So you could spend three days there without anybody knowing that

10     you were there.  It was just the ideal place for anybody to do whatever

11     they wanted to do to the people there.  We were regularly beaten at the

12     Ekonomija farm.

13             The Loznica group came most frequently, and they beat us every

14     time.  A person that they referred to as Roki started coming with the

15     Loznica group.  I was convinced that in my first statement I mentioned

16     that he had been in training, because later on during my stay when he

17     came alone he would inflict so much damage, there would be so much blood

18     as if there had been five or six of them beating us.

19     Sometimes people from Kraljevo also came, but it was most often people

20     from Loznica who came, the Loznicani group.  They came at different times,

21     during the day, during the night.  And as for the place where we were

22     incarcerated, I don't know what to tell you.  We did not have anything to

23     lie on, just a few cardboards. And one night they even poured water on the

24     floor so that we would not be able to sit or lie down and we... I managed

25     to sleep on my feet, in a sort of semi-conscious state.  And you never

Page 5231

 1     knew... they would come at random times, day and night, and beat us up.

 2     And they even forced us to beat each other.  On the second day of my stay

 3     at Ekonomija my shoulder was broken.  It was done by Roki from Rocevici.

 4     I don't know whether he was actually from there or not.

 5             I was beaten by two men, and I could only see him running up to

 6     me with an intention to kick me in the head.  I moved, which angered him.

 7     He went outside, took a very wide stake that was prepared for the fence

 8     around Ekonomija.  He came back and he started beating me with that stake

 9     on the showed year and he kept on beating me until I no longer felt my

10     shoulder.  I fainted three times.  There must have been water in the room

11     because every time he poured water over my head and every time he cursed

12     my mother.  And let me not repeat those curses.  And he kept on telling

13     me, "You won't die yet, not yet."  Finally he asked me, "Do you want me

14     to start beating you on the right shoulder as well?"  And I said yes, do

15     that.  And then he started beating me with that stake on the right

16     shoulder.  He hit me several times, and then he said, "The right shoulder

17     is somewhat sweeter," and then he continued beating me on the left

18     shoulder.  He said, "The left shoulder is sweeter."

19             I don't know for how long this lasted for.  I only know that he

20     actually broke that thing on my shoulder.  He broke my shoulder, and I

21     still suffer the consequences of that beating.  I can't lift my left arm,

22     and I have only 30 per cent of the strength of the right arm in my left

23     arm.

24        Q.   Let me just -- you say you can't lift your left arm.  Can you

25     show the court how much you can lift your arm.  So the witness is showing

Page 5232

 1     that he can only lift his arm a little below horizontal level.  And

 2     that's the left arm.

 3        A.   I can't lift it any further up because this is where it was

 4     broken and it healed incorrectly.  The bone healed incorrectly.

 5             I don't know how I mustered the strength the following morning,

 6     and I'm skipping a few things here because there was an agreement between

 7     Cele and Niski that we would be taken to work the following morning.

 8     Whoever was able to lift their -- both arms could go to work and if they

 9     couldn't then tough luck, and I mustered the strength to lift both my

10     arms and that's how I was taken to work.

11        Q.   Let's just stop for one minute.  So the person who was beating on

12     the shoulder, who was that?

13        A.   Roki.

14        Q.   And what -- what group did he belong to?

15        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you which group he belonged to.  He

16     came with the group from Loznica.  Sometimes he would come on his own.

17     At the beginning when he started arriving, he had a spiral -- a frizzy

18     mini-wave, long hair.  His hair was bleached.  It was originally brown.

19     And then later on when we saw him his hair was short, black, and he also

20     sported a black moustache.  He was an expert in martial arts, and I know

21     that because he could beat a person much bigger than him and he could

22     kick a man much bigger than him with his leg.

23        Q.   You also mentioned that there would be the Kardelj group that

24     would come.  You mentioned them earlier.  Is that the group that you

25     mentioned as being the group of Seselj's men at the Standard factory?

Page 5233

 1        A.   Kardelj was a member of the Loznica group.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Again a leading

 3     question and very much off the point.  In the statement there is no

 4     reference to Kardelj's group.  Kardelj is mentioned as one of the men

 5     from Loznica, and now the Prosecutor is leading the witness, asking him a

 6     leading question, and if the witness is not concentrated then he might

 7     have answered yes, he was from Kardelj's group, and I don't think this is

 8     admissible.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I will have to go up in the transcript but I'm

11     fairly certain that the witness has already said earlier in the

12     transcript that they were Seselj's group, and he also referred to that

13     group as being the group from Kardelj.  So I'm not leading the witness.

14     I'm just confirming to make sure that we have in the same portion of the

15     transcript the information to make it easier to read later on.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't hear that.  The Trial

17     Chamber didn't hear that.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I consider you

20     should sanction the Prosecutor because he is making things up.  Evidently

21     neither Seselj's nor Kardelj's group were mentioned, and I understood

22     that Seselj and Kardelj were one and the same man called different names

23     by different people, and it's a well-known percentage in history.

24             I think the witness should be allowed to tell us what happened to

25     him on his own without the Prosecutor introducing confusion with leading

Page 5234

 1     questions.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I will rephrase the question.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I don't think it's

 4     Kardelj.  It must be Kraljevo.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  May I?  Kardelj was a

 6     member of the Loznicani group.  He may have become confused with the one.

 7     He was a member of the Loznica group.  He was a short man.  He's the one

 8     who beat me when I got away from that Roki.  He had a nickname.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President, by your

11     leave.  It's been ten years since this witness VS-1013 made his

12     statement.  In these ten years the Prosecution has had enough time to

13     identify all these people by first and last name and address, but the OTP

14     did not investigate at all.  The witness gave a statement, and it was all

15     left aside for ten years.

16             The witness is giving his testimony now, and the OTP has not

17     conducted any kind of investigation to support this.  Where can this be

18     done now?  It was their duty to check the identity of all of these people

19     if these people exist.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  This is not an objection.  It's a comment on the

23     Prosecution's investigation.

24             Now, I will rephrase the question and -- the question to be the

25     following:

Page 5235

 1        Q.   While you were in Ekonomija, did the group that you earlier

 2     identified as Seselj's men, did they also participate in the beating of

 3     prisoners?

 4        A.   Yes, they did.  On the second day we were there they brought in

 5     Bubica, Brahman Mulbasic [phoen], and when they brought him in, it was

 6     the Loznica people who brought him in.  He said they could call up Jefto

 7     Subotic, that this was ridiculous, that there must be some mistake.  And

 8     we said to him, "Calm down, maybe none of us will leave this place

 9     alive."  He started to laugh.  I don't know how much time I have.

10        Q.   Let me stop you.  Before we get into this, could you just briefly

11     describe who this person with the nickname Bubica was?

12        A.   He was the driver of the Zvornik brick factory manager.  For

13     years he was his driver.  The two of them went around together, and their

14     relationship was far more intimate than a merely official relationship.

15     They knew each other's secrets.  Jefto knew Bubica's secrets and vice

16     versa.  Everybody knew Bubica.  He was a very good looking man.

17        Q.   And what was the name of the manager that he was the driver of?

18        A.   Jefto Subotic, the manager of Glinica.  He was elected manager in

19     1991, probably for political reasons, because for gave money for certain

20     causes, and Bubica evidently knew too much because Bubica was in Germany

21     and he was in constant contact with Jefto and Jefto said Bubica told us

22     this.  Jefto said to him that everything was all right, that he could

23     come back.  So Bubica came back.  As he told us he spent a few days with

24     Jefto in Belgrade, and then people had to report their property again and

25     to avoid losing his flat in agreement with Jefto he came back to Zvornik

Page 5236

 1     to report his flat, and he was told everything would be all right.  But

 2     while he was queueing up, he was captured.  The Loznicani beat him up and

 3     then they said we'll go and play a little with your wife.

 4        Q.   Did they beat Bubica?

 5        A.   Not in front of us.  Later Major Toro turned up, he and Sava, and

 6     Sava had a black pump-action rifle, I think.  He took out a sheet of

 7     paper and he said, "Who is this Bubica Buljubasic [phoen]?"  And Bubica

 8     said, "It's me," and he said, "What kind of big cheese are you when I

 9     have to interrogate you?"  And he said to him that he should write down

10     on this sheet of paper who his contact person in SDA in Sarajevo was and

11     from where he was supposed to obtain explosives to blow up Jefto Subotic.

12     Bubica burst out laughing and said, "Sir, this is misunderstanding.  This

13     is ridiculous, Jefto and I are best friends.  Call up Jefto and ask him."

14     And he said, "Don't interrupt me.  If you're guilty, I'll kill you.  I

15     don't torture people, but don't interrupt me.  I hate being interrupted.

16     I don't like beating people up."  And he said to him, "You're going to

17     write down this and this and that."

18             And Bubica thought it was funny.  He couldn't understand that he

19     was being accused of they things.  So he kept asking him to call up Jefto

20     and ask him or to let him talk to Jefto.  But at one point Toro started

21     hitting him, and as far as I was able to see, I was peering out of -- and

22     it was the first time I saw a beating.  He punched him and then kicked

23     him and when he finally let him go he crumpled up on the floor in the

24     corner and he said to him, "Didn't I tell you not to interrupt me?"  And

25     at that point Sava saw -- well, we said to Bubica he had a gold chain and

Page 5237

 1     a gold watch and a gold bracelet, and we had told him to hide these

 2     things and but didn't believe us, and Sava took off his gold chain and

 3     gold bracelets and he said, "You won't be needing this anymore anyway."

 4             And then he realised what time it was and where he was, and he

 5     took off his watch and he said, "If you survive this give this to my

 6     children.  And Toro later confiscated that watch from that prisoner, but

 7     I don't want to say what his name now was in open session.

 8        Q.   We have to move on, so let me ask you, did you see Vojvoda Cele

 9     at Ekonomija?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  He came on the next day, and Zoks and Pufta came,

11     I think, but he came for sure because I know that they were laughing about

12     how the people from Loznica were beating us, and they said,

13     "It doesn't matter.  We'll come back later."

14     And they turned up again at night.  It was late at night.  Before

15     that the people from Loznica had beaten us up again, and he came with two

16     big knives stuck in his belt.  He took them both out and started whetting

17     the knives, one against the other, and he said, don't be afraid it won't

18     last long.  I've brought assistants with me.  And they forced us to --

19            Well, before that they started accusing the father of one of the

20    prisoners, an elderly man who was there, that he had been a Ustasha in World

21    War II, and they said that he had a U branded under his left armpit.  They

22    stripped him, and they saw that he didn't have any U tattooed or branded

23    on his skin, and they said he must have had plastic surgery to remove it.

24             And at Ekonomija they kept forcing us to make the sign of the

25     cross, to bless ourselves.  There was a Nedjo, a Serb, and he told us how


Page 5238

 1     to say the Our Father.

 2        Q.   Let me just stop you here.  Was the -- was the elder -- elderly

 3     man asked to go -- taken outside the room?

 4        A.   Yes, but I wanted to come back to that later.

 5        Q.   I think we have to move to this.

 6        A.   [In English] Okay.

 7        Q.   Was there another prisoner that was taken out with the elderly

 8     man?  Just yes or no, because I think we'll need to go into private

 9     session to get the identity.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if we can move into private session, please.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

13                           [Private session]

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:


Page 5239

 1        Q.   Can you describe first what happened to the older man outside?

 2        A.   The elderly man was taken outside and beaten.  They hit him in

 3     front.  We heard them hitting him.  We were all stripped down to the

 4     waist and kneeling.

 5             They took out this other person as well.  They brought him back

 6     later, but they beat this elderly man, and finally he crawled back inside

 7     on all fours because he couldn't stand up after the beating.  And at one

 8     point when he crawled back into the left-hand corner he said, "Good-bye,

 9     children.  I'm leaving," and he died.

10        Q.   And the other person that was taken out, do you know what

11     happened to him?

12        A.   They beat him, too, but then they brought him back in.

13        Q.   And you said that you were all kneeling.  Why were you kneeling?

14        A.   Vojvoda Cele made us strip to the waist and pray to God, but he

15     said that we mustn't pray to Allah.  He said we were Serbs and we had to

16     pray to Jesus and that our fate was being decided.  That's why I wanted

17     to talk about this Nedjo who was locked up together with us, because he

18     was the one who taught us the text of the Our Father since we didn't know

19     it.  And really, I did say that prayer only so that things would -- that

20     things would pass -- pass by me.  And then this Niski came with his men

21     and started arguing with Vojvoda Cele outside, and he said, "What are you

22     doing?  I need people to work."  And Cele said to him, "Go and look

23     somewhere else."  And Niski said to him, "Where can I find men when

24     you've killed them all.  You've slaughtered them all."  And he said,

25     "What do I care?  These ones are mine."  And then Vojvoda said, "Now your

Page 5240

 1     fate is really at stake.  Pray to God."  And then they made a deal.  They

 2     said that all those who are fit to work, who could lift their arms,

 3     should go and work, and those who couldn't were left to Vojvoda.

 4             That morning, I managed somehow to raise my arms, and that

 5     morning we were transferred to the brick factory in Karakaj near Zvornik,

 6     which was not far from that place.

 7        Q.   How many men from the room went to do work?

 8        A.   I think there were 23 of us.  The number changed later on.

 9     Twenty-four, depending on how many were needed.  I think at first there

10     were 22 of us.  I'm not sure, but I know that they made a list of our

11     names, and it seems to me, although I'm not a hundred per cent certain,

12     that there were 22 of us.  I know later the number increases to 24 or 25,

13     and then some men were and then some men were brought in subsequently

14     when there was more work to be done.  And when we arrived in the

15     brickworks, we went to load the bricks, and another group went to put in

16     order the room where we were going to be, and then Niski came.  He

17     recognised some of us who had been at Standard, and he said he was really

18     sorry, there wasn't much he could do, and what he could do was the

19     following:  Nobody was to interfere with us.  We were to be prisoners

20     according to the Geneva Conventions.  We were to be given five or ten

21     cigarettes a day and five German marks each; that was what we were

22     entitled to under the Geneva Conventions he said.

23        Q.   Let's stop here and go back a little bit.  What was the name of

24     the place you were taken to, the name of the factory?

25        A.   This was the Novi Izvor factory called the brickworks because

Page 5241

 1     they produced roof tiles, in fact.

 2        Q.   And I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 65 ter 4101.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this list and then we'll

 4     have a break.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, what is on this photograph?

 7        A.   That's that Novi Izvor brickworks or Ciglana, or the roof tile

 8     factory.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a number.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit number

13     P00307.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have a

15     20-minute break.  We'll resume at 10 past 12.00 and we'll work until

16     1.15.  Mr. Prosecutor, I think you've used nearly two hours so far but

17     the Registrar is going to check that.  Thank you.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.50

19                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It doesn't seem to be my

22     day for exhibits today.  I'd like to ask that P05 and P06 -- no.  P305

23     and P306 be placed under seal.  They bear the signature of the witness.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, counsel.  Just for the record, P00305 and

Page 5242

 1     P00306 are placed under seal.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, what kind of work did you initially do at Ciglana or

 4     the brick factory?

 5        A.   At the beginning we mostly loaded up stuff -- or, rather, the

 6     roof tiles, and then well, we did some cleaning, too, some plastic waste

 7     behind the factory.  I think they're the reels that the roof tiles were

 8     baked in.  We cleaned that.  And then when the people from Kraljevo took

 9     us over, Kraljcani, we started loading up construction material all over

10     Zvornik and first --

11        Q.   Let me stop you.  Before we get to that, you who were detained

12     worked at the factory.  Were there also other people working at the

13     factory?

14        A.   Yes, there were, the usual workers, ordinary workers.

15        Q.   And were you being guarded by anyone since you say you were

16     prisoners?

17        A.   Yes.  At first where we worked there were always guards there,

18     usually the military police.

19        Q.   Did they wear a uniform?

20        A.   Yes, they wore the SMB olive-green uniform.  Yes, they did, the

21     kind worn by the JNA, with the white belt.

22        Q.   And did they have any insignia on?

23        A.   In the beginning I don't think so.  It was the regular army,

24     regular soldiers.  They had -- just had the white belts while we were

25     working within the factory compound.

Page 5243

 1        Q.   You said that you were then later taken over and then you did

 2     other work.  Now, first of all, what do you mean by "taken over"?

 3        A.   They took us over -- well, according to certain provisions.  I

 4     don't know which, but Major Toro took us over and Zoks and Pufta.  They

 5     were the three that were mostly there, and they took us off.  They took

 6     us to do this loading job, the construction material around Zvornik.  At

 7     the beginning it was only Zvornik.  At the beginning it was only this

 8     construction material.

 9        Q.   Sorry, where did you go to load this material?

10        A.   There were two hauling companies from Loznica, two haulers, with

11     their trucks, the large trucks, and we would load this up onto them, onto

12     their vehicles, and everything that we loaded up went to the Ciglana or

13     brick factory, and I think the director Miscevic there would issue papers

14     as if to say that all this was Ciglana in the first place and then it was

15     driven to the Jadar company, utilities company in Loznica, that was what

16     we learnt from the driver, and the goods were sold there.

17        Q.   And you said that papers were issued as if the materials came

18     from the Ciglana factory in the first place.  Where did it really come

19     from?

20        A.   In fact, the material was stolen, had been stolen, from the

21     Muslim houses that were abandoned because the people had been expelled or

22     they had escaped.  So all this was loaded up onto the trucks.  And once

23     we'd load up a whole truck full we would go and sit up on the truck

24     ourselves.  Some people would sit with the driver in front.  Sometimes

25     there was an escort.  One vehicle would follow the truck, and we were

Page 5244

 1     taken to the Ciglana.  And quite obviously that's where other papers were

 2     supplied, because how else could you transport the goods to Serbia?  So I

 3     think that that's what financed the war, that the war was financed from

 4     there.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, if I may put a question directly

 6     to the witness.

 7             Did you yourself take part in the loading of the trucks with this

 8     construction material that you have mentioned?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But I understand that you had a broken shoulder

11     at this time.  So you would have been incapable of carrying anything, or

12     at least not very much.  So how did you manage?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I loaded up together with others,

14     and they covered for me because I had a less weight to carry.  And my

15     shoulder, the bones knitted together but not properly.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But this was how long after your shoulder was

17     broken?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fracture occurred, let's see,

19     when we were at the Ekonomija on the 11th or 12th of May, and the

20     Kraljcani took us over towards the end of May.  So while we were working

21     in the Ciglana we would load up the roof tiles, and everybody took larger

22     loads, and I was given a light load, or they would just pass tiles over

23     to me, and my friends would cover for me.  So the bones knitted, but had

24     I shown them that I wasn't able to work, I would probably have been sent

25     back.

Page 5245

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 3        Q.   When you went out to get building material, who decided where you

 4     would go?

 5        A.   Toro did.

 6        Q.   Did you only go to Muslim houses?

 7        A.   At the beginning, yes.  However, as time went by, well, the Serbs

 8     would write in large letters write up "Serb house," and then they would

 9     ring a few times, and if nobody opened the door then he would say, "Break

10     in," and we would break into the house.  And if he took a liking to any

11     of the items in the house, we would quickly load them up onto the truck

12     and move on.

13        Q.   Did you only remove building material?

14        A.   In the beginning, yes, but later on we would empty whole

15     workshops, depots belonging to various entrepreneurs, and so on.  But at

16     the beginning it was only construction material.  And what happened

17     fairly frequently was that we would line up the tools from the various

18     workshops and the machines.  We'd make a line of them at the bottom and

19     then put roof tiles on top to cover them up.  And what they did, sold the

20     material over there, I don't know, but we did what we were told to do.

21     For example, an entire workshop belonging to Fikret Lovric with all the

22     barbecue equipment, they were all loaded up and all this was patented

23     stuff.

24        Q.   How often did you go out on those trips?

25        A.   Daily.  We went every day, on a daily basis.  We would load up.


Page 5246

 1     We went every day.

 2        Q.   Did you ever go to your own house?

 3        A.   Yes, I did, and I loaded up -- well, Zoks and Pufta took us in a

 4     car.  The Loznicani were up there with a truck, and then I took out all

 5     the things from my own house and loaded them up for the Loznicani, Lale,

 6     the same one that beat me on my feet and left knee.  And Sneza, his wife,

 7     went too.  She had a baby in her arms, but she went to select the

 8     furniture she fancied.  And they took almost everything from my own

 9     house.

10             And I'd like to give you a detail but only in private session,

11     because I don't want to disclose my identity by giving you that detail.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

13                           [Private session]

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 5247

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:

19        Q.   How long did you continue to work for the Seselj group doing

20     these kind of trips?

21        A.   Well, almost until the very end of my stay in Zvornik.  I can't

22     give you an exact date, whether it was around the 1st of July or the 7th

23     when the people from Loznica took us over, but the Loznicani took us off

24     to load goods in Kozluk, for example, too, although frequently --

25     although the Loznicani had taken us over, Sava and Sasa would stop by


Page 5248

 1     down there too.  So -- well, it happened almost on a daily basis.  That's

 2     what we did almost every day, but I couldn't tell you whether it was the

 3     1st of July or 7th of July, but I know that we were transferred to

 4     Batkovici on the 15th of July.

 5        Q.   And could you tell us how Kozluk looked at the time?

 6        A.   Well, at the time Kozluk had been emptied of its inhabitants, and

 7     the Serbs came to Kozluk who were relocated, resettled there from other

 8     territories, and they would come in, take over the houses.  And we tried

 9     with the Loznicani to load up the goods before people came to take up

10     residence in the empty houses.  So if somebody managed to hide a

11     television, you might find -- come across a TV set, or you would be told

12     to dig up a yard if they thought some gold or valuables had been hidden

13     there.

14             But anyway, Kozluk emptied very quickly, and the other people

15     that had come in and resettled there came in quickly.

16        Q.   While you were in Ciglana, were you mistreated in the same way

17     that you had been mistreated in Standard and Ekonomija?

18        A.   Yes.  Not for the first few days, but then slowly while Niski was

19     still there, and then slowly the guards began beating us, and then some

20     groups began coming in.  Well, I don't know, some people from outside.

21     And then this man Roki started visiting us on a regular basis, the one

22     that broke my shoulder.  Roki made us learn Chetnik songs.  We had to

23     know them off by heart.  And whenever he turned up, we had to get up,

24     stand up, and he would point to some that he called -- some of us who he

25     called the singers and who had made -- memorised the songs.  We had to

Page 5249

 1     sing the Chetnik songs out loud and he would hit us.  He loved doing

 2     that.  Now, do you want me to go back to the soldiers who beat us or him

 3     or what do you want me to refer to?

 4        Q.   We have to move on so I go to a specific incident.  I think the

 5     Court has sort of understood the sort of general picture of how things

 6     were.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise, Mr. Prosecutor, but not quite.

 8     There is one thing that is unclear to me, and this is the handing over

 9     from -- from the group the Loznica group to the group that you call

10     Seselj's men, and it is unclear to me who was doing what exactly of these

11     two groups.  Sometimes we are told that they came out with the Loznica

12     group, and yet it was somebody from the Seselj's men who were controlling

13     the events, and -- I would like the witness to explain to us just how

14     this handing over of control was -- was carried out in practice.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, which group first took you out on trips like the

17     ones you have described?

18        A.   The Kraljevcani group took us out, although I can't remember the

19     date.  But it was roughly from the end of May until the beginning of July

20     when we were under their control.

21        Q.   And the next group that took you out, which group was that?

22        A.   We were under the control of the Loznicani.  Now, who made the

23     decisions and how those decisions were made, we did not know

24     unfortunately.  All we knew was that they arrived and that they were in

25     charge of us from that time on.

Page 5250

 1        Q.   So if I may summarise your evidence, when you say you were taken

 2     over, you were describing basically that a new group of people started to

 3     be the ones who would take you out with them.  Is that how we can

 4     understand it?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's right.

 6        Q.   Now, I'd like to ask you whether you know or knew a gentleman

 7     called Ismet Cirak.

 8        A.   Yes.  I met him for the first time when they brought us to

 9     Ekonomija.  He was also in the group that was transferred from Ekonomija

10     to the Ciglana place later on.  And at some point, whether it was one of

11     the guards or a man named Djoko, nicknamed Kobra from Trsic, or one the

12     guards, I'm not quite sure because he went around with the Kraljevcani

13     later on, but anyway, he attached a nickname to him.  They said that he

14     had a rifle first, where it stayed "This lady shoots alone," and then

15     somebody added an adjective, and it said "This lady shoots at Serbs

16     alone."

17        Q.   Can I ask you, did you at some point witness him being mistreated

18     by anyone?

19        A.   Yes.  And on one occasion -- well, they came and beat us all.

20     That was the order of the day.  But on one particular occasion Zoks took

21     us out to wash his white Stojadin car.  It was all bloody, and they were

22     all bloody.  And they washed their hands at the tap.  And then this man

23     Djoko left, nicknamed Kobra, and he took Ismet out and he took out a pair

24     of pliers and tried to pull one of Ismet's teeth out.  He started pulling

25     and pulling but didn't manage to do that.  So he tried another tooth but

Page 5251

 1     was unsuccessful there too.  And then Zoks sent him off.  He said

 2     something to him, I don't know what, but he said I'll come back to you

 3     later, something like that.

 4        Q.   And did somebody come back to Ismet Cirak?

 5        A.   Yes.  One day Pufta came with Savo and Sasa.  I don't think that

 6     Toro was there on that day but I'm not sure.

 7             In any case, Pufta was behaving very strangely that whole day and

 8     tried to brag before his colleagues about his position and importance,

 9     and then he threatened Fikret first or maybe Cirak first.  Then he took

10     Cirak outside and told him he would slit his throat.  We could not

11     believe our ears when he heard that.  We were very close.  I was standing

12     not far from the window, and Savo and Sasa were laughing all the time

13     saying, "He's not normal," and this and that and the other.  "Stop

14     fooling around," Savo was telling him, I believe.  Or Sasa maybe.  "Stop

15     while it's still not too late."

16             And then Sasa entered and sat down amongst us.  He brought a

17     chair to the door and sat down, and he said he would never be able to

18     torture a person.  He could kill a person but not torture him had.  And

19     he said that Pufta was an idiot.  And then he -- and then he said, "Well,

20     look at the fool.  He wanted to slit his throat with a blunt knife and I

21     gave him a sharp knife."  At one point Pufta appeared with a bloody knife

22     and gave it to a prisoner who was there next to the door and I don't want

23     to mention his name because we're in open session, and then he went

24     outside, washed the knife, and he came back all pale, and he just rolled

25     his eyes and whispered to us that he indeed did slit his throat.


Page 5252

 1             Then he took a prisoner outside who was tattooed all over and

 2     whose name I also don't want to mention --

 3        Q.   Let me just stop you here.  Who -- who took the knife outside and

 4     washed it?  Not the name, but was it a prisoner who took the knife out

 5     and came back in?

 6        A.   Pufta brought in the knife and gave it to a prisoner, telling him

 7     to go out and wash the blood off the knife.

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I think we should go into private session for

 9     a brief moment.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar.

11                           [Private session]

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:


Page 5253

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know what was -- what was done to the body of

 2     Ismet Cirak?

 3        A.   It was thrown into a car.  I did not see it because I was inside,

 4     but we heard the car leaving.  I don't think that they took it very far.

 5     I believe that they took it into a field below Karakaj in the industrial

 6     zone, because they returned within 10 minutes.  So it did not take long.

 7     I can't give you the exact timing.  It may have been anything between 10

 8     and 20 minutes.  That's how long it took them to take the body there and

 9     return.  And then --

10        Q.   You mentioned a man with a tattoo.  What happened to him?

11        A.   Pufta told him that he had to remove that, otherwise he would cut

12     it out.  And if he as much as uttered a sound while he was removing his

13     tattoos he would slaughter him as he did Cirak.

14        Q.   And did this person try to remove the tattoo?

15        A.   Yes.  I believe that he gave him a lighter and we gave him

16     another.

17        Q.   And what did he do with the lighter?

18        A.   He burnt his skin with the lighters.  At the end Pufta was not

19     satisfied with the result.  He took him outside, into another room,

20     actually, and actually he encircled the tattoo with a knife.  He took it

21     out with a knife, and the man did not as much as utter a sound.  Pufta

22     brought him back inside, and -- and we could see him sweating profusely,

23     and then somebody tore a T-shirt or something to put on the wound so that

24     it could heal.

25             Pufta came up to a prisoner after that whom he referred to as

Page 5254

 1     Swiss, because that person was temporarily employed in Switzerland, and

 2     he just came -- had come for a holiday, and he told him, "You are next

 3     tonight."

 4        Q.   Before we move on, what was on the tattoo that was removed, do

 5     you know?

 6        A.   A crescent and a star.

 7        Q.   Was the Swiss killed?

 8        A.   No, he wasn't.  That night they were on the -- on a night-shift,

 9     and the Swiss decided without ever mentioning it to the others, since the

10     guards never had any problems with that, he attacked the guard and took

11     his weapon and fled together with three or four other men.

12             This had not been planned, which is corroborated by the fact that

13     half of the shift remained working in the factory without ever noticing

14     that something had occurred.

15        Q.   Thank you.  For how long did you remain at Ciglana?

16        A.   We remain at Ciglana, as far as I can remember, up to the 15th of

17     July.  That's the way I remember it.  I believe it was the 15th of July.

18        Q.   And where -- where did you go from Ciglana?

19        A.   From Ciglana we were taken to the Batkovic camp.  And could I

20     please provide a comment about something that happened before we were

21     transferred just briefly?  I would like to provide a comment.

22        Q.   We are running out of time, so if you would be very brief,

23     please.

24        A.   I would like to talk about 800 people who went missing from the

25     villages surrounding Zvornik.  One lad was brought one morning because

Page 5255

 1     his -- from his village Kaldurani.  He said where certain villagers had

 2     buried weapons, and on that morning he was brought in, and on that day

 3     the busloads of people with their heads down and arms on their back were

 4     singing Chetnik songs.  One bus was pulled over.  This lad was loaded

 5     onto the bus, and we heard him saying, "They're being taken to be

 6     exchanged."  And I heard somebody saying, "Well, good for them."  And

 7     then Toro said, "They will all be killed.  You should feel lucky to all

 8     be here."  And the lot of these people is not known to this very day.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When you came to -- to Batkovic [Realtime transcript

10     read in error "Petkovic"] were there other people detained there?

11        A.   During the transport to Batkovic they loaded onto different buses

12     all those who were incarcerated in Zvornik.  When we arrived in Batkovic

13     we found prisoners from Vlasnica, Papraca, Brezevo Polje, Bijeljina,

14     Brcko, there.  And later on people from Rogatica were brought in, and

15     subsequently that winter people from another camp, either Manjaca or camp

16     around Prijedor, were also brought in.

17        Q.   In the transcript at line 10 Petkovic should be with a B.  It

18     should be Batkovic like two lines further down.

19             Did the other prisoners at Batkovic tell you what had happened to

20     them?

21        A.   Yes.  People from Divic said the most about what had happened in

22     Celopek in the culture hall.  We already knew some details because a

23     group had been brought to work together with us, but they did not dare

24     tell us all because we were guarded by Kraljevo guys.  They were telling

25     us about the things that Repic with his group as well as Pufta and Toro


Page 5256

 1     and others had done down there.  Together with them we tried to exchange

 2     as much information as possible.  Obviously we relied only on trusted

 3     sources, because we didn't know who of us would survive.  So we wanted

 4     those who survived to know as much as possible to be able to relate those

 5     stories to others.

 6        Q.   And what were you told about what had happened at Celopek?

 7        A.   We were told, for example, that Repic and his team came.  Toro,

 8     Zoks, and Pufta also came.  They killed people there.  They cut off male

 9     sexual organs and forced other men to eat them.  They forced a father and

10     son to perform a sexual act, and they enjoyed every possible humiliation

11     that they could inflict upon people.

12             They asked a man who was in the company of his 16-year-old son

13     whether he had any more children.  He said, No, that he didn't have any

14     more, and then they told him, Well, you have none now, and they shot the

15     boy in the head.  The father was also killed because Repic opened a burst

16     of fire into the group where this man was.

17        Q.   How long did you stay at Batkovic?

18        A.   I stayed until the 4th of December, 1992.  That's when I left

19     Batkovic camp.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, that concludes the direct

21     examination of this witness by the Prosecution.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I would have a question

24     for you, Witness.  The topic was not dealt with, but this is to be found

25     in the indictment.  You were living in Zvornik.  Next to Zvornik there is

Page 5257

 1     another place called Mali Zvornik, is that so?

 2        A.   That's correct.  It's across the road.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the indictment it is said

 4     that Mr. Seselj allegedly went to Mali Zvornik to make a speech.  Were

 5     you aware of that?

 6        A.   I heard of that.  I did not hear or see the speech itself.  I

 7     know that there were incidents during the speech, but I personally did

 8     not attend the occasion.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When this speech was made were

10     you in Zvornik?

11        A.   I wouldn't be able to remember the date when this happened, but I

12     was in Zvornik constantly for a year leading up to the war.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about your neighbours, the

14     residents of Zvornik?  Did they speak about the speech or did nobody

15     speak about it?

16        A.   Well, they spoke about it, but there is one thing.  None of us

17     could actually understand or grasp the possibility of a war.  It was just

18     perceived as a way to win votes.  Even today as I sit here when I

19     remember all these things, I just can't believe what has happened and

20     what I've been through.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to the ethnic distribution

22     of Zvornik, was it a city, a town with a majority of Serbs or of Muslims?

23        A.   Zvornik as a town had a majority Muslim population.  There is a

24     part of Zvornik that used to be called Srpska Varos which was inhabited

25     by the Serbs who had lived there a long time, but a majority of Serb

Page 5258

 1     inhabitants of Zvornik inhabited high-rise blocks of flats.  It is to be

 2     assumed that between 60 and 70 per cent of Zvornik were Muslims.

 3        Q.   One final question.  What did you to load up building material

 4     onto trucks, material that had been removed from Muslim houses, I was

 5     listening to you very carefully.

 6             If I understood properly, you would load onto the truck the

 7     building material that was taken here and there.  Is that so?

 8        A.   Your Honour, these materials were just sitting around the houses

 9     from which the Muslims had been expelled, and these materials were just

10     sitting there and we just came up to those houses and loaded them on the

11     lorries.  The houses in mid-July --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you say that you would put

13     that onto trucks.  So there were several of them.  And would the trucks

14     come from Serbia or were they local trucks as it were?

15        A.   Most of the vehicles frame -- came from two haulers who had huge,

16     big trucks, who would transport all the stuff to Serbia.  Sometimes --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  So you say

18     that they belonged to two haulers.  These transport companies, were they

19     local companies or were they transport companies from Belgrade, from

20     Serbia?

21        A.   One was Ljubisa from Loznicka Polje.  That was one hauler.  His

22     lorry was blue.  And the other one was Dragan, also known as Mrgud, and I

23     believe that he was a hauler from Loznica.

24             Your Honour, if I may add to that --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  So these

Page 5259

 1     two transport companies did not come from Belgrade.  They were local

 2     ones.  We agree on that, don't we?  Very well.

 3             So as to the materials, they were on the trucks.  Where would the

 4     trucks go to?

 5        A.   They would go to the Jadar utility company in Loznica.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were going to the

 7     Lozica, the local company, but from there they left to Serbia.  Who told

 8     you that?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  They left for Serbia, interpreters note.

10        A.   I apologise, Your Honours.  Loznica is in Serbia on the other

11     side of the Drina River, and the other bank.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When I was talking about

13     Serbia, I meant Belgrade.  Were the trucks going towards Loznica or

14     towards Belgrade?

15        A.   As far as I know and as far as I was informed by the drivers,

16     they took the stuff to Loznica.  I know that on one occasion Dragan, also

17     known as Mrgud, took certain things to Kraljevo.  He was angry and he

18     said, "I will never do it again."  I don't know what was on those trucks

19     that went -- or on that truck that went to Kraljevo.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This looting, you were a victim

21     of this also as you told us this story about the umbrella and the CD

22     player that had been bought in Germany.  You were the victim of this

23     also.  When you were there, did you have the feeling that this was

24     organised looting, or were people profiting from that situation and

25     amassed some goods?  What was your view on this?

Page 5260

 1        A.   Your Honour, I believe that the small-scale looting, if I may

 2     call it that way, which involved certain private belongings from the

 3     houses, that those were private enterprises.  As for the bigger-scale

 4     looting involving machinery and building materials, that was organised in

 5     nature and I can corroborate that with the fact and tell you that when

 6     the military police control came to see who we were and what we were

 7     doing there, Major Toro would take out a list of paper showing what was

 8     allowed, what was not allowed, and then they would turn on their heels

 9     and leave.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So was a blank sheet -- sorry,

11     was a sheet of paper on which the instruction were is written down?

12        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... of authority.  I did not say

13     the following thing because there was no time for that.  On one occasion

14     when we were loading stuff from a tinsmith shop we found bags with bloody

15     clothes in them, and those items of clothing were numbered.  The highest

16     number that I saw was either 192 or 198.  I'm not sure any more.  Then

17     some Specials came, I don't know, and said that we should not touch those

18     things because those are the archived items.  Then Toro showed him that

19     piece of paper.  We left the bags behind but we loaded everything else,

20     and then they left.

21             What I'm saying is that he was a man with a very high authority.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, this is my last question.

23     You spoke at length about the Cele Vojvoda, and I was wondering why you

24     gave him this title, Vojvoda.  Why did this Cele have this title?  How

25     did you know about it, who told you?  Could you tell us more about this?

Page 5261

 1        A.   His fellow fighters called him Vojvoda.  When Sasa came to

 2     Standard, that's what he said.  And he either on that occasion or maybe

 3     later told us that at a rally in Montenegro when somebody through a hand

 4     grenade saved Seselj's life, and that's why Seselj held him in high

 5     esteem.  That's what I heard, and that's the only thing that I can tell

 6     you.  I cannot confirm in any other way.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And according to you he was

 8     declared a Vojvoda in what year?

 9        A.   I can't tell you this.  From the moment we first met him, they

10     always referred to him as Vojvoda.  When and how he became a Vojvoda I

11     couldn't tell you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in 1992, since it was in the

13     second half of 1992 that you met Cele, those people who were with him

14     called him Vojvod; is that right?

15        A.   I apologise, Your Honour.  I am talking about the month of May

16     1992 while I was incarcerated at Standard.  When Sasa came and said that

17     this was a very special gentleman, that we have to address him very

18     politely, that we had to address him as the honourable Mr. Vojvoda

19     because he was one of the very rare gentlemen.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was asking you this question

21     because a witness is mentioned in the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution,

22     I shall not mention his name, and it was declared that he was declared

23     Vojvod in May 1993.

24             If this witness is not mistaken, he was not a Vojvod in 1992.

25        A.   I can only tell you what I know and what I heard.  Unfortunately,


Page 5262

 1     if Sasa lied to us, then obviously I can only pass on the information

 2     that I received at the time.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have quarter of

 4     an hour left.  Mr. Seselj, would you like to start your

 5     cross-examination?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let's avoid wasting time.

 7                           Cross-examination by Seselj

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1013, this is what I'm going to call you

 9     because this is your pseudonym here.  I'm not contesting the fact major

10     crimes were committed in Zvornik and I don't have any reason to say that

11     you were not a victim of the crimes and that you were fortunate to save

12     yourself, but I'm going to contest some of your identifications provided

13     to us here about people, events, and time frames.  We will start from

14     last things first which is the rally in Mali Zvornik.

15             You said that there were some incidents there, or at least that's

16     what you heard; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.

18        Q.   Do you remember any details of the incidents?  A group of people

19     came from Veliki Zvornik, a large group of people.  They threw stones at

20     us.  Are you aware of that?

21        A.   To be honest, I know that there were incidents, but I don't know

22     what the nature of the incident was.  I really can't tell you who started

23     it and what it was.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  The

25     interpreters are reminding me of the fact that when you put your

Page 5263

 1     question, you should then turn off your microphone so that the witness

 2     can answer.  And when you take the floor again, you put your microphone

 3     on again.  Is that what Mr. Marcussen wanted to say?  Fine.  Very well.

 4     I was reading his mind.

 5             So please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know where in Mali Zvornik I held that rally?

 8        A.   I can't recall.  I wasn't there.

 9        Q.   Could it have been in the cultural club or cultural centre right

10     in the centre of town?

11        A.   Well, I really couldn't talk about that rally because I can't

12     remember.  I don't know.  It's possible, but I can say neither yes nor

13     no.

14        Q.   Well, what's important to me is that you remember the incident at

15     the rally.  If you can't speak about other details, I won't insist.

16        A.   Please forgive me.  I'm really sorry.  I wasn't there.  I did

17     hear that something happened.  I know that there was some kind of fight

18     there, but really I can't tell you what happened because I wasn't there.

19        Q.   Do you know what year that rally was held?

20        A.   Well, in 1990 or 1991.  I can't say which.

21        Q.   Well, what you said, Mr. VS-1013, it was in early August 1990,

22     not March 1992 as stated in the indictment.  Thank you.  I'm satisfied

23     with your response.

24        A.   May I say something?  In that period 1991, early 1992, a member

25     of my family was seriously ill so that 90 per cent of my time was devoted

Page 5264

 1     to nursing that family member who unfortunately died later on and that's

 2     why I wasn't so interested in what was going on.

 3        Q.   Well, what matters to me is that you did pinpoint the period in

 4     which this happened.  It was early August 1990, not March 1992.  I won't

 5     dwell on this point any longer.

 6             What were the reasons that prompted you to ask for protection --

 7     or, rather, protective measures in the course of your testimony?  That's

 8     what I'd like to know.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session

10     certainly, but I would like to get back to the speech.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I withdraw my question.  I withdraw

12     my question, or I will reformulate it.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was not taking the floor on

14     that topic.  There's a question here that seems extremely important to

15     me.  It's Mr. Seselj's speech purportedly in August of 1990.

16             The events and serious events which are going to unfold do not

17     unfold in 1990.  You agree with me there.

18             Now, if Mr. Seselj has -- gives his speech in August 1990, this,

19     normally speaking, should have repercussions.  So as far as you remember,

20     August, September, October, November, 1990, the end of the year 1990, did

21     this speech have any impact?  You mentioned incidents, incidents which

22     you remember where -- did these incidents follow the speech immediately?

23     And that would be 1990, but then not in 1991 or 1992.  What can you tell

24     us about this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session


Page 5265

 1     so that I can explain my situation at that time?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private

 3     session, please.

 4                           [Private session]

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)


Page 5266

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I don't like asking questions in private session.  You'll

 6     understand that.  Mr. VS-1013, do you consider that you are under some

 7     sort of threat on my part because of your testimony in these proceedings

 8     against me, and could that be the reason for you asking for protective

 9     measures?

10        A.   If I may respond.  I think that one can never be cautious enough

11     in everyday life.

12        Q.   If I understand you correctly, you don't have any specific

13     indicia that you are in danger from me.  Can you answer that question

14     more directly now?

15        A.   I have not received any direct threats.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   You're welcome.

18        Q.   You remember the beginning the beginning of the conflict.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  You mentioned

20     no direct threats, but any logical mind will think of indirect threats.

21     Was there anything in terms of indirect threats?

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We could perhaps move into

24     private session.  Let's move into private session.

25                           [Private session]


Page 5267











11    Page 5267 redacted. Private session















Page 5268

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a recommendation I would

16     like to make.  You are a witness of the Chamber.  Therefore, you can have

17     no contact with the Office of the Prosecution, and we shall reconvene

18     tomorrow morning to resume our cross-examination which has just started.

19     Mr. Seselj will have approximately three hours tomorrow to cross-examine

20     you, so we should finish your testimony to all intents and purposes

21     tomorrow.  We shall start our hearing at 8.30 tomorrow, because my

22     colleagues are also sitting in another case.  So we shall start at 8.30

23     tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.16 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day


Page 5269

 1                           of March, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.