Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5270

 1                           Wednesday, 26 March 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-67-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  This is

12     Wednesday, and I welcome representatives from the Prosecution, our

13     witness, Mr. Seselj, as well as everyone helping us.

14             The cross-examination is going to continue and I will thus give

15     the floor to Mr. Seselj.

16                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VS-1013 [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

19        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, at the beginning of the examination-in-chief, you

20     talked about the good pre-war relationships between the Serbs and Muslims

21     in the Zvornik area and then you stated that the upset in the interethnic

22     relations came about because of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences

23     and their big plan; is that what you said?

24        A.   That's what I said.  That's my assumption.

25        Q.   What big plan is this of the Serbian Academy of Arts and

Page 5271

 1     Sciences?

 2        A.   Well, I can give you my opinion.  Now whether it is correct or

 3     not, those are my conclusions nonetheless.

 4        Q.   Well, give me your conclusions then.

 5        A.   Well, if you put all the pieces of the puzzle together which I

 6     tried to do, and giving thought to how the situation came about in the

 7     first place, everything happened with the arrival of Dobrica Cosic,

 8     Vuk Draskovic, your own Bore Djordjevic and I'd link this up to the death

 9     of Branko Copic, his suicide.  I was at school then but I think that this

10     was on the news at the time that he convened a conference, a press

11     conference at which he stated that a plan was being prepared for all

12     non-Serbs to be killed after which he was proclaimed mad and he committed

13     suicide.  I think he jumped off a bridge, not into the water but on to

14     the ground beside the water.

15        Q.   And what year was this that Branko Copic committed suicide?

16        A.   I think it was 1985 or '86.  1986, I think, somewhere around

17     there.  I'm not quite sure so I couldn't give you those facts precisely.

18        Q.   Several years before.  But what press conference was it that he

19     held with this plan, putting forward the plan that all non-Serbs be

20     killed?

21        A.   Well, I remember that a professor of Serbo Croatian at the time,

22     my teacher, I had a lesson with him and I didn't know about politics at

23     the time but I knew that he talked about us with that, that it was very

24     sorry to see such a major writer go wrong and I remember him saying that.

25     And I remembered his words several years later and I tried to link all

Page 5272

 1     this up.

 2        Q.   Well, I can tell you with every certainty that Branko Copic never

 3     convened any press conference before his suicide.  He was persecuted

 4     under the Communist regime and suffered from paranoia.  And when he had

 5     this depression, he jumped off Branko Radicevic Bridge, that was the name

 6     of the bridge.  There was no conference so neither you nor the

 7     Prosecution can bring in a scrap of evidence to proof that Branko Copic

 8     held any press conference whatever, that's why I'm surprised by that

 9     statement of yours.

10        A.   I said I was not certain, but, Mr. Seselj, what you are doing for

11     24 -- round the clock, you're dealing with things like this whereas I am

12     not somebody who deals with the kind of work you deal with.  I'm not a

13     politician.  I'm not an investigator; fourth, I'm not an attorney.  I'm

14     quite simply a man doing an ordinary job in order to survive, to have a

15     livelihood and to take care of how I'm going to make ends meet to the end

16     of the month and be able to look out for my family and feed it as best I

17     can.  So I don't think I have any leftover time for things like that but

18     I just said that these were some of my thoughts.

19             So I can't tell you about the facts.  That is the way in which I

20     put the puzzle together.

21        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, I have every sympathy with the problems you face in

22     life and a lot of people live that way in the Balkans, most of them in

23     fact so not only in your region, but everybody must be responsible for

24     the words they utter so you must bear that in mind.  So tell me now,

25     please, where was it that Dobrica Cosic, Vuk Draskovic, Bore Djordjevic

Page 5273

 1     and I were taken into the Serbian academy?  Is that where you mean when

 2     we were admitted?

 3        A.   Mr. Seselj, I don't know the dates when you became a member or

 4     not a member of the SANU, the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences.  And

 5     as far as the academy goes, I said that I thought that's where it all

 6     began.  So I didn't say that it did actually begin there, I said that I

 7     thought it began there and that according to my knowledge and information

 8     and what I had heard, read and seen, that's how things evolved, roughly

 9     speaking.

10        Q.   Well, I have to tell you and tell me your views, that neither

11     Vuk Draskovic nor Bore Djordjevic, nor I myself never became members of

12     the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, not because we didn't wish to.

13     Everybody wants to, every prominent intellectual in Serbia would like to

14     become a member of the academy but there is such stringent criteria that

15     we just didn't meet those criteria.  So do you maintain that we actually

16     became members of the Serbian academy, that we were admitted?

17        A.   Mr. Seselj, I never said that.  I said I think.

18        Q.   You said you think we became members.

19             Now, do you know that I was born in Bosnia too?  Are you aware of

20     that?  I was born in Sarajevo, in actual fact.

21        A.   I heard that you were born in Bosnia but not where, actually.

22        Q.   And do you know that we Bosnians, Serbs, Croats and Muslims,

23     have -- I like to say that to think is one thing but to know is another.

24     They are two quite different things; isn't that right?

25        A.   Yes, I do know that.

Page 5274

 1        Q.   So you've heard about that proverb.  I don't want to finish the

 2     proverb off.  It's a national proverb but the second part isn't

 3     commensurate to things that we should say in court.  So you agree?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, have you ever heard about the Islamic declaration of

 6     Alija Izetbegovic?

 7        A.   Yes, I have heard about it.  I have not read it ever.

 8        Q.   But do you recall that the press wrote about it?  That the press

 9     wrote about certain excerpts from that declaration among others, his

10     position and view that life together between Muslims and non-Muslims in a

11     single state was impossible.

12        A.   Well, I have to repeat.  I have never read the declaration

13     myself.  First, because before, writers wrote books.  Today, everybody

14     can write a book.  So although this was written in our times, I haven't

15     actually read it so I can't say what it says there.  If that's what he

16     wrote, then that's quite ludicrous because Muslims, Serbs and Croats for

17     decades, for centuries lived together in Bosnia-Herzegovina without any

18     major problems.

19        Q.   Well, it wasn't without any greater problems through history,

20     there were a lot of problems throughout history, let me remind you,

21     Mr. VS-1013.  Not everything was rosy because sometimes during the

22     Turkish times, the Muslims were the privileged class and the Serbs and

23     Croats were the underdogs, isn't that right?  Do you agree with that?

24        A.   Well, I couldn't really say.  I didn't live during those times.

25     I wasn't alive then so I don't know.

Page 5275

 1        Q.   But you were taught history, you learned history at school, did

 2     you not?

 3        A.   Yes, I did learn history.

 4        Q.   What education do you have?  Secondary school education or what?

 5        A.   Secondary school.

 6        Q.   So in primary school, elementary school, secondary school, you

 7     were taught history and you knew about the events that happened in the

 8     area.  But yes, for several decades, there was a peaceful way of life, I

 9     agree with that.

10             Now, do you know that in 1986, the authorities in Belgrade banned

11     my book "The Witch-hunt for Heretics" by the court in Belgrade?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And do you know that in the 1980s, I spoke about pan-Islamic

14     tendencies and their appearance and emergence in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Do you know that I was tried in Sarajevo and given an eight-year

17     prison sentence for hostile propaganda, or rather anti-Communist

18     propaganda, Serb nationalism and other things which at that time under

19     the Communist regime were incriminated?

20        A.   I think I read about that somewhere that you were in prison but

21     that you were put on trial and why, I don't really know.

22        Q.   So you don't really know anything about me except that I -- you

23     say that I became a member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences.

24     All right, Mr. VS-1013, tell me whether you know that already in 1991,

25     under the auspices of the Party of Democratic Action, the so-called SDA,

Page 5276

 1     that was a party that rallied the largest number of Muslims in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the so-called Patriotic League was formed?

 3        A.   No, I don't know.

 4        Q.   That means you've never heard of the Patriotic League, would that

 5     be right?

 6        A.   Well, I have heard of it when the war broke out.  That's when I

 7     heard of it.

 8        Q.   And almost a year before the war, did you ever hear of a

 9     paramilitary organisation of the Patriotic League that was formed under

10     the name of Green Berets?

11        A.   As for the Green Berets, I have heard of them.  I think it was on

12     television where they were shown.  I don't know in all those pre-war

13     settlings of account between the various nationalist parties it was

14     mentioned a number of times.  And on one occasion, I remember, I don't

15     know what meeting it was but I remember that a man came out and said that

16     these, I don't know, Green Berets existed and that he didn't know --

17     well, that they were rallying patriots because already at that time, if I

18     can put it that way, there were intonations of a conflict looming and

19     that they were ready to defend the country.  Now, whether he said in the

20     year -- or rather 2000 --

21        Q.   What 2000?

22        A.   2000 Green Berets.

23        Q.   And what was the basis, the main cause of the Serbian Muslim

24     conflict at the end of the 1991 and the beginning of 1992?  It was first

25     of all a conflict between politicians and then it expanded to involve the

Page 5277

 1     general populous, the people?

 2        A.   Well, what the basis of the conflict is, the reason for the

 3     conflict, well, I think that was an attempt to proclaim

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina an independent state because with the disintegration

 5     of Yugoslavia quite simply all the republics or rather, Slovenia

 6     proclaimed its independence first followed by Croatia, and then the

 7     Bosnian and Herzegovinian politicians wanted to proclaim an independent

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina too, and the Serbian Democratic Party which was the

 9     strongest party at the time was opposed to that and this led to heated

10     arguments and discussions.  I know that some of the meetings that were

11     held went on until midnight and beyond and they were very heated

12     statements, for instance by Karadzic who threatened that there would be

13     no Muslims and Cengic who came out and made statements too.  This was on

14     television.  He said don't let there be no Serbs.

15             Anyway, the then politicians of Bosnia-Herzegovina behaved like

16     children in kindergarten.

17        Q.   Let's summarise this now.  The Muslim and Croatian politicians

18     wanted to see Bosnia-Herzegovina independent whereas the Serbian

19     politicians wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain within the composition of

20     Yugoslavia; is that it?  Would that be a summary of what you've just

21     said?

22        A.   I don't think it's a summary because as far as I remember, and

23     let me tell you quite frankly, I'm not an analyst of any kind, nor am I a

24     political or military expert, but viewing the situation and these three

25     parties, the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ, in a coalition form took over

Page 5278

 1     power from the Communists just to get rid of the Communists, you must be

 2     conscious of the fact that the Communists among their ranks had many

 3     Serbs, Croats, and Muslims so none of the nationalist parties in my

 4     opinion, I keep saying my opinion and as I see things because if I spoke

 5     of in the name of the state or state organs, well, I'm not such an

 6     important person and I don't have the education to do so and I don't

 7     think I'm intelligent enough to do that.

 8        Q.   Mr. VS, I'm not underestimating you at all, Mr. VS-1013, not at

 9     all.  I'm not underestimating you regardless of the fact that you haven't

10     had any high education.

11        A.   That's why I say that to a large extent, they had a lot of people

12     who came from all three ethnic groups.

13        Q.   Let's now go back to the Zvornik area.  Is it true and correct

14     that the first unrest and the first animosity that broke out between

15     Serbs and Muslims in the Zvornik area took place when the question of and

16     the dilemma came up of Bosnia's independence or should it remain within

17     Yugoslavia?  Is that where the rift began on a nationalist level?

18        A.   An ethnic rift broke out in large part because of what you've

19     said and also, little by little, there was a nationalist rift with the

20     war in Croatia where certain ethnic groups had different positions and

21     views vis-a-vis the war.  Some of them said that the party that didn't

22     want to live -- for example, your wife, if she didn't want to live with

23     you, if she doesn't want to live with you and wants to divorce, you can't

24     force her to continue living with you so that's my position too.  If

25     anybody doesn't wish to live with anybody else, you needn't do so.

Page 5279

 1        Q.   I'm not asking about your position but is it true that in 1991,

 2     for instance, the JNA conducted mobilisation in Bosnia and Herzegovina of

 3     the reserve force, the reservists?

 4        A.   I don't know whether they conducted mobilisation.  I know that

 5     certain people would be called up to report to the reserve formations and

 6     units and that some people fled abroad because of that and others went

 7     into hiding even.  But that a general all-out mobilisation was conducted

 8     in 1991, I really don't know.  I can't say.  I wasn't in a position for

 9     me to be able to tell you that, whether it did or did not.

10        Q.   And what about mobilisation?  Did it start at the beginning of

11     1992, then?  Was there mobilisation in 1992?

12        A.   Well, mobilisation as such, I think that in the villages, for

13     example around Zvornik, that the JNA did start to call people up to the

14     reserve force or mobilise them, I don't know which term is best suited,

15     and it did issue military kits to people and certain Serbs would tell

16     their friends of many years standing that 15 to 20 days before the war

17     that they went to do a military exercise and then went to work after

18     that.

19        Q.   Is it true and correct that when these people were called up for

20     military training and partial mobilisation, because an all-out general

21     mobilisation was never actually proclaimed before the war, is it true and

22     correct that the Serbs almost regularly responded to the call-up whereas

23     the Muslims avoided doing so?

24        A.   Well, I know that the Serbs were indeed mobilised.  Now whether

25     the Muslims received call-ups for mobilisation, I'm not sure.  I remember

Page 5280

 1     a few young guys who did receive call-ups in 1991 to join the reserve

 2     force and that they avoided doing so because they were afraid that they

 3     would be sent somewhere to the battle front in Croatia or wherever and I

 4     think this was in 1991.  Now, whether in 1992 the Muslims received

 5     call-up papers, I don't know.  I personally didn't receive any so I can't

 6     answer the question.

 7        Q.   Do you know about the village of Donja Kamenica in the

 8     municipality of Zvornik?

 9        A.   Yes, I do know about that village.

10        Q.   Do you know about Sahmani, a hamlet of that village?  So, have

11     you heard about the hamlet of Sahmani in that village, part of that

12     village?

13        A.   I may have heard about it.  Sahmani, I don't know.

14        Q.   Have you heard that in mid-March, 1992, a group of five Serb

15     young men were arrested in this village and that this was the first major

16     incident in the Zvornik area?

17        A.   No.  I am not aware of that.  As far as I know, to the best of my

18     knowledge, the first incident occurred in the area around Sapna, I don't

19     know where exactly, but I've not heard about this area of Sahmani,

20     unfortunately.

21        Q.   This incident in Sahmani occurred in March and the Muslim village

22     of Sapna in the Zvornik municipality, that's where the first murder

23     occurred in the Zemun municipality.  Do you know who was killed?

24        A.   No, I don't know.

25        Q.   It was a non--commissioned officer of the JNA Nika Stanojevic, he

Page 5281

 1     was a sergeant and several soldiers were wounded when their column came

 2     up against a roadblock in that village and fire was opened on them

 3     without any warning.  And then when this sergeant or rather a warrant

 4     officer was killed, the troops returned fire and the Muslim, I think, was

 5     killed.  I don't have his name.  Have you heard about this incident, this

 6     conflict?

 7        A.   Yes, I did hear about this clash, but because I was not there and

 8     neither were you, I could not really ascertain what really happened.

 9        Q.   But do you agree that the first victim fell on the Serb side?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the interpreters

11     are asking you to stop -- to turn off your mike once you have put your

12     question and to turn it back on when you're asking your question, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I do most of the

14     time, but sometimes I just forget.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you hear my question?  Is this the first victim in this clash

17     between Muslims and Serbs in the Zvornik area?

18        A.   I know that there was shooting but as to who opened fire first,

19     well, one Muslim was killed and one Serb.  I couldn't then tell you this

20     but I would say that these were the first two victims in this clash.

21        Q.   Yes, well, on the same day, the first two victims of this

22     conflict but the JNA approached as the regular armed force of Yugoslavia,

23     and the local Muslims and their paramilitaries set up a roadblock and

24     they opened fire.  These are the facts.

25        A.   Well, I couldn't tell you how this occurred because I was not

Page 5282

 1     there.  But I do know that at that time, roadblocks were set up by all

 2     and sundry, wherever they felt like and everybody would stop there, so I

 3     couldn't tell you how this clash actually occurred.  Fortunately, I

 4     myself was never stopped at any roadblock because I am from Zvornik and I

 5     just moved around Zvornik.

 6        Q.   Do you know who Sead Hadziavdic is, from Drinjaca?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   He owns the Royal Cafe, doesn't he?

 9        A.   Yes, I think the name of the cafe was Royal.

10        Q.   Do you know that he was the first to start procuring weapons in

11     an organised manner for the illegal arming of the Muslims from his

12     village and the OTP is in possession of a report from the state security

13     service from Zvornik, from autumn 1991, where this is stated.  Have you

14     heard anything about that?

15        A.   Arming them?  I heard that he was selling weapons, probably to

16     arm people.

17        Q.   Well, selling weapons.  So procuring weapons and selling them to

18     his fellow Muslims; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's what I heard but I never saw that.

20        Q.   Do you know who Saban Redzic from Kamenica is?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Do you know who Sead Haskic from Kamenica is?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Do you know that Saban Redzic sold weapons to his compatriots in

25     Kamenica?

Page 5283

 1        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

 2        Q.   And do you know who Captain Almir is?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   What is his real name?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Would his real name be Samir Nistovic, could that be his real

 7     name?

 8        A.   No, I couldn't tell you that.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   Was he the person who organised the Patriotic League and the

10     Green Berets as its armed wing?

11        A.   Well, I couldn't tell you that.  I know that when I fled to Kula,

12     that there was a man up there who was shouting at people, beating them up

13     and people were saying that this was Captain Almir but I didn't know him

14     and I didn't really pay much attention to what he was saying because he

15     was trying to organise some form of defence there.  But now, as to

16     whether there was any organisation that he set up or not, it is my

17     opinion and that's the only thing that I can give you, he wouldn't be

18     running around in complete -- completely upset running around from people

19     telling them, Stop, stop, we have to defend this.

20        Q.   But there is testimony that he was not a competent commander, but

21     this is not at issue here but you do not, you do not contest that he was

22     commanding the Muslim forces there?

23        A.   No, I do not.

24        Q.   Do you know that the Muslim leadership in the Zvornik

25     municipality raised the reserve force of the MUP, of the police, and

Page 5284

 1     provided arms to them as early as in January of 1992?

 2        A.   Yes, I do know that the reserve force of the MUP was called up

 3     but not the Muslim part.  But if I may say so, that was the Serb-Muslim

 4     force; there were reservists both of Serb and Muslim ethnic background.

 5     And after the roadblock was set up, as far as I can recall, some other

 6     people were admitted to this reserve force of the MUP after the Serb

 7     policemen left the MUP.

 8        Q.   According to the reports, local hoodlums joined the MUP, the

 9     reserve force.  They bragged and walked around in their MUP uniforms and

10     they were instilling fear both in Serbs and in Muslims; isn't that right?

11        A.   I wouldn't agree with you.  First of all because those hoodlums

12     and thugs did join the force but that was only a day or two after the

13     shooting, after the roadblock was set up.  And they were strutting

14     around, yes, that is true, and they were bragging, but as to whether they

15     were instilling fear in Zvornik, I wouldn't agree with that.  They were

16     doing check-ups at the bridge leading in and out of Zvornik.  They were

17     searching everybody but as far as I know, they did not use any corrosive

18     measures against anyone.

19        Q.   Did you hear from Mithat Grahic?

20        A.   No, I have never heard about Mithat Grahic.

21        Q.   This is a local criminal from Zvornik who set up a unit called

22     Dzamijski Golubovi, the Mosque Pigeons, does that mean anything to you?

23        A.   Well, during the war I heard about the existence of this unit but

24     I don't know this Mithat.  I may know him by sight because Zvornik was

25     not a big town, but as for his name, I can't remember him.

Page 5285

 1        Q.   But do you know that those Mosque Pigeons, before the war, were

 2     roaming around Zvornik?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And have you heard about a paramilitary organisation called

 5     Cobras?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   It was set up by Sulejman Trsic.  Before the war, he taught in

 8     the elementary school in Sapna.

 9        A.   No, I did not hear about that.

10        Q.   Before the war, Sapna was part of the Zvornik municipality and

11     after the war, now, it is part of the federation.

12        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And do you know about a man by the name of Semsudin Muminovic,

16     nicknamed Cobra?  He later went on to become the commander of the Zvornik

17     Brigade of the BH army, sometime late in 1992.

18        A.   The name sounds familiar but I don't know this man and I have not

19     heard about it.

20        Q.   And do you know that the president of the municipality, and the

21     SDA commissioner was Abdulah Pasic, a former dentist in Zvornik?

22        A.   I would like to correct you.  He was not a dentist, it was Asim.

23     He was the dentist.  He was the president of the SDA.

24        Q.   And who was the president of the municipality?

25        A.   I think it was Pasic.  I think he worked at the clinic.

Page 5286

 1        Q.   Okay.  So now I have a little mistake here.  Do you know who

 2     Nedjo Cahic is?

 3        A.   I did hear his name mentioned.  I think he was an active duty

 4     serviceman.  I knew his brother, I didn't know him.

 5        Q.   He was the commander of the municipal Territorial Defence staff

 6     and they took over the weapons from the depot of the Milicija and the

 7     Territorial Defence depots and they used those weapons to arm the Muslims

 8     on the eve of the 8th of April, 1992; is that right?

 9        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree with you for one reason and that is the

10     fact that -- or rather, as far as I know, I think that he came not to

11     Zvornik but to Sapna or Tuzla but it was later and I don't recall him

12     being in Zvornik before the war.  And as for whether the weapons were

13     taken out or not, I don't know that.  The only thing I can say is that

14     the JNA forces took the military files from the military department and

15     also the weapons from the Territorial Defence depots.

16             As far as I know, again, I stress, as far as I know, the only

17     weapons that were at the disposal were those that were held by the

18     reserve force of the police.  As far as I know, the JNA members took the

19     files and the weapons from the Territorial Defence with them.

20        Q.   Do you know the HAP platoon?

21        A.   Yes, I did hear about them.

22        Q.   We who lived in Bosnia used the term Hapati, it's a slang term

23     for stealing.  That would be the kind of street language.

24        A.   Yes, that was the street language, the slang.

25        Q.   And this HAP platoon was deployed to loot Serb villages,

Page 5287

 1     apartments, houses and so on?

 2        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree with you.  Well, what does it mean to

 3     loot?  I was not with them.  But as far as I know, they were set up

 4     according to the information that I have, they were set up only once the

 5     lines were established so when some actions were carried out, they were

 6     in the position to steal some private property from Serb homes.  But to

 7     say that they were roaming around Zvornik looting Serb property, you

 8     couldn't say that.

 9        Q.   So to your knowledge, nobody looted Serb property in Zvornik

10     before the 8th of April?

11        A.   No, they didn't.

12        Q.   And the property of the Serbs who left their homes and apartments

13     and fled across the Drina?

14        A.   To my knowledge, this did not happen.  There may have been some

15     incidents, isolated incidents but I'm sure that there was no looting and

16     all-out stealing from departments.

17        Q.   Do you know who Himzo Tulic is?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Himzo Tulic was a well-known architect before the war in Zvornik.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   He designed several buildings in Zvornik, a cultural hall,

22     cultural centre, things like that?

23        A.   He was a surveyor.  I don't know what kind of jobs he did but he

24     had a master's degree in land survey.

25        Q.   That was the public company in the municipality?

Page 5288

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And do you know that Himzo Tulic, once he left Zvornik, he went

 3     Austria or Germany or wherever, wrote a book entitled "Zvornicka

 4     Sirat-Cuprija."  I have this book here with me.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So you do know about his book?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Have you read it?

 9        A.   No, I haven't.

10        Q.   And do you know that in this book, he describes the killing of

11     Zvornik Muslims, prisoners, civilians, the suffering that those who fled

12     went through and things like that?

13        A.   Yes, I have heard about that, but I, myself, don't like to

14     revisit those events and experiences.

15        Q.   But, sir, VS-1013, you came here to evoke those memories of those

16     ugly events?

17        A.   Yes, that's true, and -- but it's very difficult for me and I'm

18     trying to go back to my normal life.

19        Q.   But you have to admit that I'm very fair towards you.  I don't

20     want to reopen any of your wounds, to go beyond what is my objective

21     right in carrying out this cross-examination, for me to be able to

22     establish some truth in all of this, do you agree with me?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This man, Himzo Tulic, at page 130 of his book mentions a certain

25     number of Muslim paramilitary formations:  The Cobras, the Mosque

Page 5289

 1     Pigeons, HAP platoon, the Drina Dragons, the Moce, and Mis from Goduce,

 2     the battalion and the mortar detachment.  When have you heard of all

 3     those Muslim formations, have you heard about them?

 4        A.   Yes, I have heard about them.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know where the problem is.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I know it's difficult to remember, I have the

 8     same problem, but I would like to ask the accused to try to remember to

 9     turn off the microphone after he has put his questions.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I thought that the Prosecutor

11     had some vital objection.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me take this

13     opportunity to say that you must pause between question and answer.  You

14     have a fairly loud voice, as you know, and then I cannot hear the

15     translation into French.  Thank you.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Himzo Tulic says here that those units in June were linked up to

18     set up to 206th Zvornik Brigade which was envisaged as the core of the

19     future Drina Corps.  Do you know that in June, this 206th Muslim Zvornik

20     Brigade was set up?

21        A.   Well, Mr. Seselj, I don't know that because -- are you talking

22     about 1992?

23        Q.   Yes.  That's when you were in detention.

24        A.   Yes, I was in detention then.  Let me go back now.  I heard about

25     the existence of those units and now as to how they were set up and who

Page 5290

 1     was their commander in chief and so on, I don't know that because I was

 2     simply not there.

 3             I can tell you what I heard, rumours, what people were saying and

 4     what I read in the press.

 5        Q.   Yes, very well, I understand you fully.

 6             Now, let's look at this Sejtan legion and "Sejtan" means devil in

 7     Arabic or Turkish; is that right?

 8        A.   Well, Sejtan, yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   So it's the Devil's Legion, right, translated into Serbian?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  I just want us to clarify certain things.  What is

12     completely understandable to you and me need not be clear to the judges,

13     so I'm trying to clarify things.

14             Now, Himzo Tulic in this book of his describes the events before

15     the war and the rift in the SDA party, that is the main Muslim party and

16     he was in the Muslim Bosniak organisation and as a critic from outside,

17     he spoke about this rift.

18             Now, do you know that in the SDA, there was indeed a rift before

19     the war broke out?

20        A.   Mr. Seselj, I never delved in politics so there is always a power

21     struggle but if he writes about that since he dealt with matters of that

22     kind, then that must be correct.

23        Q.   Well, he says on page 15 for instance, that the executive board

24     of the party became divided as he says into two almost equal factions,

25     one more liberal than the other, rallied around the president of the

Page 5291

 1     municipality, Pasic, Jasim Hadzic and the other more conservative faction

 2     rallied around the Juzbasic, and both of these sides or parties

 3     considered themselves to be the legitimate representatives of the Muslim

 4     people.  And the main board of the SDA attempted on several occasions to

 5     have them resolve their differences through an emissary but was

 6     unsuccessful.  And instead of them settling their differences, the

 7     conflicts increased and assemblies were called to replace various people.

 8        A.   If he says so, then it must be correct, although I tell you that

 9     I didn't know about things like that but since he was a politician and

10     dealt with politics then that must have been correct.

11        Q.   Himzo Tulic is a highly respected man in Zvornik, he's a

12     prominent citizen and wouldn't take lightly to lying about things like

13     that.

14        A.   Well, I don't know, politics is a tricky business, Mr. Seselj.

15     Probably what he says is correct.

16        Q.   He goes on to say that these conflicts engulfed the SDA

17     membership and then he explains the causes of the Muslim defeat with the

18     8th of April because he said that the president of the municipality and

19     the commander of the Territorial Defence fled from Zvornik and so on and

20     so forth, but we're not going to dwell on the details there now.

21             What I'm interested in this regard is this:  And I can offer it

22     up for the overhead projector, perhaps.  Can we place it on the ELMO?

23     When it comes to arming, just a paragraph, so that we can read it out to

24     bring things home.  I'm not the only person who reads this book and I'm

25     quite sure that The Hague OTP has the book too.  Let's just place that

Page 5292

 1     paragraph on the overhead projector.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm not going to object to the use of the book

 4     the way it's being used now, but I would place on the record that we have

 5     not been notified of the accused's intention to use any documents in

 6     cross-examination of the witness.

 7             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you want to read it out or shall I read the first marked

 9     paragraph out?  I'll read it out, if you find that more acceptable.

10     "Just prior to the war, at this first and last meeting of the Crisis

11     Staff" and it's the municipal Crisis Staff that he's talking about that

12     the SDA formed, "One side did its utmost to prove to the other that it

13     had armed its people."

14             So you have two sides amongst the Muslims themselves and they are

15     entering into a race and say how they armed their own people.  And the

16     SDS, if it begins this war, will have no chance at all, even if the JNA

17     joins them.  The lies were so convincing that most of the people believed

18     them, which was a catastrophe.  The people should not have been lied to.

19     Instead of that, plans of evacuation for the population to leave town and

20     the settlement in the Drina valley should have been designed had that

21     been done, the overall balance of war crimes in our area would certainly

22     have been different.

23             Now, could you give the book back to me.

24             Now, from the Muslim aspect, Himzo Tulic is explaining the

25     situation from the Muslim aspect and says that among this Muslim

Page 5293

 1     leadership where there was a rift, each side boasted who had managed to

 2     supply more weapons and be better organised; however, when armed conflict

 3     and armed settling of accounts took place, a defeat ensued, almost in a

 4     single day.

 5             Have I interpreted this properly, in your opinion?

 6        A.   That's what it says so, yes, you've interpreted it correctly, I

 7     would say.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have listened

 9     carefully to this excerpt being read out.  This was authored by a

10     prominent figure in Zvornik, a Muslim person.  The author of this book

11     says that there was a rift within the SDA but the author also says that

12     there was arming on the part of the Muslims.  And I connect this sentence

13     with what you told us yesterday.

14             Yesterday, you told us, "I bought a Kalashnikov," so I would like

15     to spell this out and I want this to be cleared up.  You bought it as

16     part of the arming of the Muslim population, as is recounted by the

17     author of this book or you bought this weapon personally?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I bought it, actually, on my

19     neighbour's advice, and I didn't purchase it through these parties, but

20     the man took me to see another man.  He sold these on the black market.

21     He was a black marketeer in a village.  I don't remember the village's

22     name.  Just let me take a moment to try to remember what it was called.

23     I think the name of the village was Sopotnik.  And I think that the man

24     had nothing to do with the parties.  I think quite simply -- well, I

25     didn't actually know him.  I stayed in the car, in my neighbour's car

Page 5294

 1     until he settled the deal.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are telling us the truth

 3     when you say it's not you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   About a week prior to the beginning of the conflict which was on

 7     the 8th of April, it appeared as if the SDA leadership had settled its

 8     differences.  Do you know about that?

 9        A.   If that's what it says in the book, then probably that's what it

10     was.

11        Q.   Now, do you know that on the 7th of April, the day before the

12     conflict, there were negotiations between the Serbs and Muslims attended

13     by municipal representatives of the SDA and SDS parties.  The Muslims

14     were represented by Pasic and Pezerovic and the Serbs were represented as

15     it says here in Tulic's book by Grujic and Ivanovic.  Now the JNA was

16     represented by a colonel of the tank unit by the name of Tadic.  Have you

17     ever heard of these negotiations on the 7th of April between the Serbs

18     and the Muslims which were attended by JNA officers?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And do you know that at the time the representatives of the

21     Serbian and Muslim Crisis Staffs achieved some sort of agreement,

22     three-point agreement?

23        A.   Well, that news was broadcast that some agreement had been

24     reached but what it was about, I really don't know.

25        Q.   All right.  If you don't know the contents of the agreement, we

Page 5295

 1     won't go into that.  But anyway, the essence of the matter was that the

 2     authorisations in Zvornik municipality be divided up, that police control

 3     be divided up, according to settlements where the Serbs were in the

 4     majority or where the Muslims were the majority population, that was the

 5     essence of the agreement?

 6        A.   Well, I heard that there was some agreement but what they agreed

 7     upon, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Now, let's see what the problem was there.  After this agreement

 9     had been reached, Himzo Tulic on page 20 states the following.  Do you

10     want me to place that on the overhead projector, if the Trial Chamber

11     would like to see it on the ELMO; if not, I'll just read it out, read the

12     excerpt out.  It's to be found on page 20, paragraph 3 and it says, "That

13     same night, there was a putsch in the SDA Crisis Staff, that is to say in

14     the Muslim party, and a conciliation of the two conflicting parties did

15     not last a week.  And a Turkish word "hefta" is used, it's a Turkish

16     word.  Those of us who lived there know that it means "week."  And

17     Dedic Nezir, a reserve major, is placed to head the staff and after

18     taking stock of the military situation, the new commander proposes an

19     agreement.  After this, the Crisis Staff disintegrated, some of the

20     members of the staff left the town and fled and some of them joined the

21     Crisis Staff at Kula Grad.

22             So that was the night before the conflict.

23        A.   Whether that was so, I'm not sure, Mr. Seselj.  I don't know.

24     The man who wrote that, I know him and I have a high opinion of him.  Now

25     whether that was as he describes it, well, it's his own opinion.  We

Page 5296

 1     would have to hear the other side for me to be able to see that that was

 2     it, 100 per cent.  We can only go by what he wrote.  I have a high regard

 3     for him but I would prefer hearing two or three opinions.  I don't doubt

 4     his writings but I can't say that that's actually how it was because I

 5     wasn't there.  I wasn't a political representative of the SDA or anybody

 6     else.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   All right.  I won't trouble you with Himzo Tulic's book anymore.

10     It was important for me for us to review the situation in Zvornik prior

11     to the outbreak of the conflict of the 8th of April.  We have seen how

12     Tulic describes it and he says that there was disorganisation amongst the

13     Muslims, mutual conflicts, and that because of that, they were defeated

14     on the 8th of April, the day after they violated the agreement with the

15     Serb representatives in the JNA.

16             Now, the fight for Zvornik did not last long, for the town

17     itself, did it?

18        A.   Well, I don't know what was agreed and secondly, I don't know who

19     violated the agreement.  But the battles for the town did not last long.

20     I think that already by nightfall, the Serbs had control of Zvornik.

21        Q.   However, the fighting for Kula Grad went on longer and Kula Grad

22     is a fortress, a large fortress above Zvornik, and then there is a Muslim

23     village that follows on from the fortress also called Kula Grad?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the fortress is in a good strategic position and during

Page 5297

 1     Turkish times it was considered to be invincible; right?

 2        A.   Well, it has got a good strategic position, whether it was

 3     considered invincible, I don't know, I haven't heard about that.

 4        Q.   The firing from the tanks could do nothing to it?

 5        A.   Probably.

 6        Q.   So it was only infantry fighting that could take place to take

 7     control of Kula Grad and the fighting went on for days, that is to say,

 8     from the 8th of April, as the day of the conflict in Zvornik, right up

 9     until the 26th of April.

10             Now, the 26th of April, which was the Orthodox religious holiday

11     when Kula Grad fell?

12        A.   Yes, it did fall.  There was shooting from the direction of

13     Kula Grad.  Now, what the fighting was and what happened, how it was

14     conducted, I can't say, but it is true that it was on Easter day that

15     Kula fell.

16        Q.   But you happened to be there somewhere at Kula Grad; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Yes, I was there the day before it fell, that's right.

19        Q.   And you were there stand guard at some post, I can see that from

20     your statement?

21        A.   No, I was not engaged at all.  I didn't have any weapons.

22        Q.   Well, I'm not holding you for responsible for that.  There was a

23     civil war.  I'm not accusing anybody of bearing weapons.  I'm just

24     accusing people who committed crimes.  So you don't have to have this

25     defensive attitude.

Page 5298

 1             Anyway, Mr. VS-1013, do you know which forces --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were saying that

 3     in Kula Grad while the fighting was going on, you had no weapon.  Where

 4     was the weapon you'd bought?  You buy a weapon which you don't use?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The first day I had the

 6     weapon with me.  The next morning when I woke up, my father told me that

 7     we had to go in the direction of Tuzla and I still had it with me.  I got

 8     in the car with it but he said, "Get out of the car."  He seized it from

 9     me.

10             People were passing by, and he gave it to someone passing by.

11     And I said, "Wait a minute.  Let me give it to someone I know at least."

12     And a young guy came by whom I knew from the cafe and so I gave the

13     weapon to him.  And then he took him with me, we moved off in the

14     direction of Tuzla, we took a turn, and went to a village which wasn't

15     far from Kula.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   There's another book here that I'd like to mention.  I haven't

18     got it in front of me but I have a quotation from the book.  Have you

19     ever heard of Besim Ibisevic who was the president of the municipality of

20     Srebrenica in February 1991 and April of 1992?

21        A.   No, I haven't heard of him.

22        Q.   He is a historian by profession and he published a book called

23     "Srebrenica from 1987 to 1992" in Amsterdam.  It was printed in 1999.

24     I'm sure the OTP has the book.  I haven't managed to get a copy of the

25     original but the OTP can, but there is a very characteristic quotation

Page 5299

 1     from the book and it to be found on pages 64 and 65 where he says the

 2     following:  "In the second half of 1990, in Nova Kasaba, a cafe called

 3     Jugum [phoen] a meeting was held of the representatives of the SDA of

 4     Zvornik, Bratunac, Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Visegrad, Kalesija, and

 5     Rogatica.  Presiding over the meeting was Mehmed Kavazbasic from

 6     Vlasenica, and on behalf of the SDA's central office, Izmet Kasumovic was

 7     present.  It was agreed that weapons should be supplied for the Muslims

 8     and setting up guards as well and look into the possibility of toppling

 9     the bridge over the Drina and cutting off the roads and communication

10     lines towards Serbia."

11             Have you heard anything about that ever?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   This same author, Besim Ibisevic, on page 159 writes as follows,

14     he says:  "At the beginning of February 1992, a meeting was held of the

15     representatives of the SDA of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, and

16     Vlasenica.  The meeting was held at Mount Susica in a hunting hut there,

17     that's Srebrenica municipality.  The topic of the meeting was

18     preparations for the war."

19             That is to be found on page 159, have you heard of that meeting

20     in February 1992?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know, since you were at Kula Grad at the time when it

23     fell, what units from the Serb side participated in the attack at

24     Kula Grad?

25        A.   I wouldn't say that because I was just running away

Page 5300

 1     helter-skelter.

 2        Q.   So I will tell you, according to my knowledge what units

 3     participated in this attack and then you can confirm whether you know

 4     about it or not.  Do you agree with that approach?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   On the Serb side, it was the special unit of the JNA from

 7     Pancevo.  About 100 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.  One of

 8     Arkan's units participated, I don't know their strength, and a group of

 9     the reserve or the wartime force of the police from Zvornik also

10     participated and it was joined by a group of volunteers of the Serbian

11     Radical Party from Loznica and this whole unit was under the command of

12     an active-duty police officer, Mr. Jekic, Vojislav Jekic.  Have you ever

13     heard of Vojislav Jekic?

14        A.   Unfortunately not.

15        Q.   Fine.  So when I tell you now who participated in the attack on

16     Kula Grad to my knowledge, do you have any objections and remarks, do you

17     have anything to deny or to confirm?

18        A.   Well, I did not hear who participated in the attack.  I do know

19     that on one occasion, when we were being guarded at Ciglana that one of

20     the guards said to another, he was wearing the military police uniform,

21     he said that he had participated in the attack on Kula Grad and that his

22     weapon had jammed and that he had been really scared.  He hadn't known

23     what to do.  A military police officer said that so this is the only

24     thing that I can tell you about the units that had participated in this

25     attack and about this man who led them.

Page 5301

 1        Q.   Let's just understand one thing.  You're talking about the

 2     military policemen.  On the 26th of April, the military police did not

 3     participate in the attack but there are previous attacks on Kula Grad?

 4        A.   Yes, I suppose so.  You could hear shots from that direction

 5     every day, not very intense but sometimes it was sporadic but we could

 6     hear that.

 7        Q.   But there was some failed attacks on Kula Grad; isn't that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I suppose so.  At least that's what the story is heard.

10        Q.   Did you hear about Arkan's attempts to take Kula Grad and some of

11     his best fighters got killed there?

12        A.   I heard that his brother-in-law got killed or maybe his best

13     fighter, I don't know.  As far as I heard from the stories, they tried to

14     infiltrate the town, and they started a conflict there.

15        Q.   This person was Rambo, the guy who got killed as his best

16     fighter?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that was a few days before the final attack on Kula Grad that

19     I'm talking about?

20        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.

21        Q.   Do you know that Kalesija which is the neighbouring municipality

22     in the direction of Tuzla fell before Kula Grad actually?

23        A.   I wouldn't know.

24        Q.   Do you know that Kalesija is the municipality neighbouring

25     Zvornik?

Page 5302

 1        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

 2        Q.   Muslims and Serbs live in Kalesija but the majority of them are

 3     Muslims; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, I suppose so.

 5        Q.   Do you know that Kalesija, for a month, was under the Serb

 6     control which was in April up to the 11th of May or thereabouts?

 7        A.   Yes, I heard that.  I was not aware of the exact dates, but I

 8     know that one time while we were still in Ciglana, people came from the

 9     direction of Kalesija because I suppose that the Patriotic League Force,

10     as they were known at the time, had taken Kalesija again and the guards

11     told us, "We will come back from Kalesija."

12        Q.   But you didn't know who participated in the attack on Kula Grad

13     but if I tell you that a special unit of the JNA from Pancevo and the

14     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party returned immediately to Serbia as

15     soon as Kula Grad fell, what would you say about that?  Am I telling the

16     truth or not?

17        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you.  I wasn't there.  How many

18     members of the Serbian Radical Party were there and from which

19     municipalities, I wouldn't be able to tell you either.  I only know that

20     people from Kraljevo that guarded us later on were there.  Whether they

21     participated in the attack on Kula Grad or not, I wouldn't know.

22        Q.   I can only tell you that people from Kraljevo did not participate

23     in Kula Grad but we will discuss that a bit later.  Now we will come to

24     your statement that you provided in Vienna in 1993 to the representatives

25     of the Muslim authorities.  Do you remember that statement?

Page 5303

 1        A.   Representatives of the Muslim authorities?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   What year was that?

 4        Q.   It was in 1993.

 5        A.   1993?  No, I provided a statement in 1996 to the Hague Tribunal.

 6     Some people came, some people wrote statements and asked for my

 7     statement, but the only official statement that I have provided was in

 8     1996 to The Hague Tribunal.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement please be

10     displayed on the ELMO, but in private so that the identity of this

11     witness will not be revealed.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

13     continues] ... going to decide among ourselves whether we are going to

14     move into private session for this part.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I insist that this should

16     not be in closed session.  I'm not going to do anything that might reveal

17     this witness's identity.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  We're going to

20     have a look at the document.  Could you give us the document first so

21     that we see it?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is number 00301430 that I was

23     given by the Prosecutor.  I can provide it to you but I think it would be

24     in order for the Prosecutor to provide you with the document.  I received

25     it last week from the Prosecutor.

Page 5304

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor gave you the

 2     document but I don't have it.  Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, are you aware of this

 3     document?  Do you know it?

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, we have disclosed this document to the

 5     accused.  It is for the accused to prepare his cross-examination and come

 6     with the copies and the documents he needs to use.  It's not for the

 7     Prosecution to be his case manager.  I don't know if we have a spare copy

 8     that we can bring.  I'm sure that we can look into that now.

 9             It is my understanding that it is technically possible to show

10     the document just in the courtroom.  So as long as the accused's

11     questions do not reveal the identity of the witness, we probably don't

12     need to go into private session if the accused prefers to be in open

13     session.  But of course he has to put questions which don't reveal the

14     identity of the witness but that's a general rule that doesn't only apply

15     to this particular document.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we can put the document on

17     the ELMO as long as this is not shown outside this courtroom.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, last year, I was

19     informed through the e-court that I am supposed to give only the ERN

20     number and that the registry is able to display the document on the

21     screen, so I have adapted to the system.

22             Could you please put this on the ELMO without the general public

23     being able to see.  You're just going to show -- we are going to show the

24     whole page, all three of them.  We will go through the entire document.

25     We will display all the three pages of this document.

Page 5305

 1             Now, what channel will this be displayed on for me?  Very well.

 2     Thank you.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, can you see your name here, the date of birth, the

 5     address, the occupation and the passport number?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you please go to page 3 for the gentleman to see his

 8     signature and to confirm whether this is his authentic signature or not.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is this your signature?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you see the date when you provided this statement in Vienna?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Do you see the name of the person who took the statement?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   This person took the statement on behalf of the Muslim

17     authorities in Sarajevo; is that correct?

18        A.   I suppose so.  I must tell you something.  I've been providing

19     all sorts of statements.  I was not looking at the date, but I suppose

20     that is that.  I know that my first official statement was taken in 1996

21     for The Hague Tribunal and on behalf of The Hague Tribunal, but I --

22        Q.   I am glad that you recognised the signature.

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   So you are not contesting that this is your statement?

25        A.   No.

Page 5306

 1        Q.   Please, can we slowly go across the first, second and third

 2     pages.  I would like to show you that nowhere in this statement did you

 3     mention members of the Seselj group, you don't mention my name or the

 4     Serb Radical Party.

 5             Let's start looking at the text.  Could you please start moving

 6     the text, madam, towards the top and let's see if Seselj's men are

 7     mentioned anywhere.  Let's move on.  Go to the next page please.  Start

 8     at the top, please.  Scroll towards the bottom.  Go on.  Go on.

 9             Are you able to follow or is this too fast?

10        A.   Yes, I'm following.

11        Q.   Let's go to page 3 now.  Start from the top and move towards the

12     bottom of the page.

13             Have you managed to have a good look?  Is it correct that you

14     don't mention Seselj's men, that you don't mention my name or the

15     Serb Radical Party?

16        A.   As far as I can see, that's correct.  But I did mention certain

17     members of your party, as far as I knew.

18        Q.   We will look into that.  We will see whether they really belong

19     to the party or not.  You mentioned people under their nicknames, this

20     concurs with your subsequent statements and these are people of whom you

21     said that they tortured detainees, both the members of the military and

22     civilians and I'm not contesting any of that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I would ask that the witness be allowed to look

25     at the statement, because I think he's going too fast for him to look at.

Page 5307

 1     It says on, I believe it's page 3 of the statement, and I'm reading from

 2     the English translation that I have, for example, it says:  "On one

 3     occasion, a Djuk from Karlovac visited us, a general Chetnik," and so on

 4     and so forth.  And there's more references to Chetnik so I think the

 5     witness should be allowed to look at the statement before the questions

 6     are being put to him in this way and he's being asked to confirmed what

 7     groups he has mentioned or not mentioned.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can wait for as long as it takes,

 9     but please do not take this into account as the time for my

10     cross-examination.  And I would like to draw attention to the fact that

11     Seselj's men are one thing and Chetniks are another thing.  Croats and

12     Muslims refer to everybody as Chetniks even the JNA.  I'm not contesting

13     the fact that he is mentioning Chetniks and Vojvoda from Karlovac, what

14     were the -- how should I know?

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you need more time to peruse the document, sir?

17        A.   Yes.  What Mr. Seselj asked me about the Serb Radical Party, it

18     is not mentioned here at all.  What is being mentioned is Vojvoda from

19     Kraljevo, the true Chetnik with long hair and long beard.  I am

20     mentioning names and nicknames but as for what Mr. Seselj asked me about

21     the Serb Radical Party, this is not mentioned here.  Chetniks are

22     mentioned on several occasions and in several paragraphs, but I have not

23     mentioned the SRS here or at least the lady who took a note of my

24     statement did not take it down.

25        Q.   But you are not mentioning Seselj's name, there is no my name,

Page 5308

 1     there is no reference to any of those here; is that correct?

 2        A.   As far as I can see, no reference of that is made here.

 3        Q.   Mr. VS-1013 --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  Can we

 5     have the document again.  I would like to see the date of the document on

 6     the last page, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the last page, page 3.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have questions,

 9     but I shall first give the floor to Mr. Seselj.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is your most recent statement after all that you went

12     through and the sufferings that you experienced?

13        A.   You mean this one today?

14        Q.   No, the one that you are looking at now.  Could you please bring

15     that paper over to me?  This was provided only a year after you suffered

16     through the detention?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Then your memory was the freshest, isn't that correct?

19        A.   Yes, it was much fresher than it is today.

20        Q.   And in 1996, when you provided your statement to the OTP of

21     The Hague Tribunal, you mentioned Seselj's men on several occasions.  Who

22     talked to you in Sarajevo before you met with the investigators of

23     The Hague Tribunal?

24        A.   Nobody.

25        Q.   Who contacted you from the AID?

Page 5309

 1        A.   I beg your pardon.

 2        Q.   Do you know what AID, the Muslim secret service?

 3        A.   No, I wouldn't know.

 4        Q.   You don't know what AID is?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   In that case, I won't ask you anything.  I am astonished that you

 7     don't know who AID is or what the organisation is, but it was suggested

 8     to you to mention Seselj in 1996.  I've tried to locate this

 9     Vojvoda Celo, this is the person you mentioned in your first question?

10        A.   Cele.

11        Q.   In the first statement you said Celo, the statement Vienna.  I

12     tried to find a photo, I managed it in Himzo Tulic's book, I found a

13     photo of a person with long hair who tortures a Muslim prisoner; one of

14     them is covered in blood.  I'm going to show you the photo.  It depicts a

15     person from the back.  I would like to know and hear from you when you

16     look at the hair and the height and the picture of the person, would you

17     be able to recognise this person this Vojvoda Cele that you spoke about?

18             Could you please put this photo on the ELMO.  Thank you?

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, we have not been given a copy of

20     this or notified that the accused was going to use this.  Your Honours

21     have ordered that the accused provide us with a notification of a --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lower this down, please.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  -- he hasn't done that.  I object to this line of

24     cross-examination.  I could have pulled in random photographs and used

25     that and I refrained from doing that.  I am opposed to the use of this

Page 5310

 1     photograph.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, there are rules

 3     that have been set out by way of a decision issued by the Trial Chamber.

 4     When, for the sake of the cross-examination, the accused produces

 5     documents, he has to disclose the documents prior to the beginning of the

 6     cross-examination.  The documents have to be disclosed to the Prosecution

 7     and to the Trial Chamber.  I can very well understand that you are

 8     physically in a difficult situation, you are alone and you have to manage

 9     a whole host of events.  Therefore, this objection is sustainable but one

10     has to factor in as well certain specific circumstances.

11             This objection pertains to the photograph that is to be found in

12     this book.  This is a book that exists, it was not invented for this

13     purpose here.  It has some relevance, that's the least we can say.  Now,

14     as to the probative value, we'll see later.  There is a photograph, I can

15     see some individuals in it.  Obviously one of them has been hit if not

16     tortured and there is an individual who is looking at them.  And it seems

17     that the question the accused wants to put to you is whether this

18     individual whom we can see, we can see his hair and his stature, and he

19     wants to know whether this is the famous Vojvoda Cele.

20             I'm going to ask my colleagues what they think of this.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the interest of justice, the

23     Trial Chamber is going to allow the accused to show this photograph and

24     to put a question about what we can see in this photograph.

25             Put your question, Mr. Seselj.

Page 5311

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I know that it is difficult to identify somebody from the back,

 3     but on the basis of this long hair, the typical hat that you can see on

 4     this person's head, you can see the knife at this person's belt at the

 5     left-hand side.  I don't know what else could be characteristic, but

 6     could this be the person that you identified as Vojvoda Celo from

 7     Kraljevo?

 8        A.   I don't think so.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  Could you please hand

10     me the book.

11        Q.   This morning, I gave 7 pages of documents to be photocopied for

12     the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.  I would like to use those

13     documents after the break.  I assume that there will be a break in five

14     or six minutes.  Please give this back to me.  I hope that the

15     Prosecution will have enough time to study those documents.  I obtained

16     those documents yesterday and I was not in a position to hand them over

17     sooner and I will be using them in the cross-examination of this witness.

18             I would like to make a remark regarding what I said yesterday.  I

19     was able to learn that the questioning of Miroslav Vukovic, Cele, as a

20     suspect, was done by Mr. Mussemeyer, who appeared in this courtroom on

21     several occasions.  It is -- this statement is very important for me in

22     this cross-examination.  I learned some facts that I had not known

23     before, that at the time, Miroslav Vukovic, Cele, was in contact with

24     Ljubisa Petkovic, that he went to Zvornik from Banja Junakovic where he

25     had been undergoing treatment, and that he was there to guard and secure

Page 5312

 1     the Glinica Factory.  This statement is valuable to me and I'm not in a

 2     position in use it now because the Prosecution did not hand it over, did

 3     not disclose it because they are trying to cover everything up.

 4             If Mr. Mussemeyer was here, he would be able to give us some

 5     details.  I'm not in a position to know everything, to know all the

 6     details that occurred during the war but this is why there is this

 7     voluminous documentation and I'm trying to use it.  In this statement,

 8     there are some very important details and since we will be unable to use

 9     it with this witness, it would be essential for us to use it in the

10     examination of future witnesses, but to do so, we will have to get an

11     official translation.

12             I hope that I will get a statement from Miroslav Vukovic, Cele,

13     himself.  It will be a brief statement, just a summary, but he did

14     provide a long statement to the OTP several years ago.

15             So if you are in a position to order the OTP to obtain this

16     statement, I would be very grateful to you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I have listened to

18     the accused and it appears that Miroslav Vukovic, aka Cele, from what

19     Mr. Seselj has, in terms of information, but he has so much information

20     that sometimes we are astounded that he should be aware of so many

21     things.

22             Well, this Miroslav Vukovic, apparently, was interviewed by your

23     own associate whom we had the pleasure of seeing here on several

24     occasions in this courtroom.

25             Yesterday, I was delving into your pre-trial brief which I still

Page 5313

 1     have in front of me.  Page 43, footnote 284, mention is made of this Cele

 2     and still in the pre-trial brief, page 44, footnote 309, this Cele is

 3     mentioned again.  So how is it that an individual who is in support of

 4     your case in your pre-trial brief has been heard by the OTP?  How is it

 5     that his statement was not disclosed to the accused?

 6             I'm not challenging you, because you took up this case at the

 7     last minute, but this is a real question.  How is it that somebody who is

 8     mentioned in a pre-trial brief in a footnote in support of the arguments

 9     being tried in the indictment, who was heard by the OTP, how is it that

10     his statement was not disclosed to the accused?

11             MR. MUNDIS:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Thank you for the floor.

12     The interview of this individual was taped.  My understanding is that

13     again, it's a situation where, as we attempted to disclose the recorded

14     interview, the accused refused to accept it.  We do have English

15     transcripts.  We are working on translating those transcripts into B/C/S

16     and they will be disclosed as soon as they are available.  It's -- much

17     of this, Your Honour, comes down to the simple issue of resources and as

18     each -- with respect to each indication of something else becoming a top

19     priority, other things necessarily have to be reevaluated.  There is a

20     huge back-log of material, transcripts, Rule 68 material, suspect

21     interviews, interviews mentioning the accused by name, all of this

22     material, pursuant to the Chamber's orders, must be translated into

23     Serbian and there is simply a huge backlog of material that needs to be

24     either transcribed or transcribed and translated into B/C/S.  So the

25     bottom-line answer is we have an English transcript, we have tape

Page 5314

 1     recordings of these interviews but neither of those are acceptable to the

 2     accused and as a result he will get the material as soon as it's

 3     available.

 4             At some point, Your Honours, we very well may face the crisis

 5     situation where we simply will need to adjourn this hearing in order to

 6     produce the material in the Serbian language for the accused.  I don't

 7     think we're at that point yet but I do and will continue to stress that

 8     there are certain logistical and human resource limitations upon us and

 9     we are providing this material as quickly as we possibly can.

10             I don't believe that this individual is listed on the

11     Prosecution's witness list, although I do acknowledge that there are

12     references to him in the Prosecution pre-trial brief.  But again, it's a

13     question of simply having the resources to translate and transcribe all

14     of this material into the Serbian language in light of the accused's

15     refusal to accept transcripts in English or tape recordings which are in

16     both English and Serbian.

17             Obviously these interviews were conducted in both languages so

18     that the Serbian language is audible on the tapes, but we simply can't

19     transcribe and translate this material quickly enough in order to

20     forestall each and every possible scenario of which material Dr. Seselj

21     says he wants today versus something that can be provided next week.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor has

23     provided an answer and I have no comment on this.  However, this Cele is

24     somebody who could be the link between you and the volunteers of the

25     Serbian Radical Party, therefore, this is an important issue.  You were

Page 5315

 1     aware of his existence, be it only because you read the pre-trial brief.

 2     And here again, I'm not casting any reproach on you.  I told you the same

 3     yesterday and you replied that you were the only accused in this Tribunal

 4     who drafted 381 applications or motions.  I do take note of that.  I'm

 5     not criticising you there, either.

 6             But with regard to the proceedings, I'm somewhat amazed that such

 7     an important element as this that drew your attention as you just saw,

 8     why did you wait to the very last minute to say, "I need in my language

 9     and in hard copy the statement of this man Cele."  Well, you could have

10     asked for it several months ago.  All the more so, since this individual

11     is so important to you, you could have done that months ago and you apply

12     for this on the last day.

13             The Prosecutor has just explained to you that he's really doing

14     his level best.  That there were many factors to take into account, for

15     instance, that initially, you refused to accept everything on DVDs, so

16     everything now has to be transcribed which takes time.  We know that.

17     But regardless of that, this is important.  It is important to know

18     whether Mr. Cele was under you or not.  You say he didn't.  And in

19     support of your case, it would be interesting to know whether, what his

20     position was and this position would be in the statement, but you raise

21     this issue at the very last minute, hence my surprise.

22             Please do understand that this is not a reproach on my part, but

23     I'm just astonished, just as I expressed astonishment in light of the

24     fact that the OTP should have been very aware of this CD and should have

25     checked that you had -- Cele and you should have made sure that you had a

Page 5316

 1     statement in hard copy.

 2             Yes, Mr. Seselj, and then we will have a break.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is my unalienable

 4     right to have all the documents submitted to me on paper and in the

 5     Serbian language.  If the Prosecution is unable to do so, then this means

 6     that the international justice is impossible.  It is my unalienable right

 7     to defend myself; it is guaranteed by a number of international

 8     conventions.  The Prosecution has had five years at its disposal and they

 9     must have known that I would need that at one point and I have to say

10     that I have been misled.

11             Up until a couple of days ago, I believed that Cele was among

12     this group of Serbian Radical Party volunteers in Zvornik.  I learned

13     later of his statement that he gave to the Prosecution and that there he

14     says that he did not go with this group of Serbian Radical Party

15     volunteers but that he had joined them in the organisation of the

16     association of Serbs from Bosnia-Herzegovina to guard the Glinica Factory

17     with a small group of people and that he had gone there from treatment at

18     Banja Junakovic and that he remained in Zvornik until mid-May.  And in

19     late May he appeared at the Serbian Radical Party rally in Podgorica

20     where an attempt on my life was made.  He could not have been a Vojvoda

21     at that time, he was promoted to the rank of Vojvoda only in 1993.

22             I can agree with you that I know the most but I don't know

23     everything, although I'm trying to learn everything but that's

24     impossible.  This is the situation that I am in.  Perhaps I will obtain

25     the statement from Miroslav Vukovic, Cele, during the break.  It will be

Page 5317

 1     a short statement but the Prosecution has to provide the official

 2     transcript of the interview with him because we will need it for future

 3     witnesses, witnesses who had seen him there and who mention his name.

 4             So I am not denying that there is a link between me and Cele.

 5     Cele was the deputy commander of the volunteers in Trpinje in eastern

 6     Slavonia, he was promoted to the rank of the Chetnik Vojvoda.  In late

 7     1992, he was elected into the parliament on the Serbian Radical Party

 8     slate, but he was not in this group of volunteers that were sent by the

 9     Serbian Radical Party in April 1992 to Zvornik.  This was all organized

10     by the JNA.  That is the gist of it.  Because he remained there longer

11     than the volunteers did.

12             How can I prove that?  On the one hand I will have the statement,

13     on the other hand, the interview that he gave to the Prosecution.  I hope

14     that I will get the statement during the break by fax and this statement

15     from the Prosecution should also come in.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll have the

17     break.  If the Prosecutor during the break could find the statement in

18     Serbian and disclose it to the accused, it would be a good thing.  I

19     don't know if 20 minutes is enough for you to find this statement.

20     Mr. Mundis.

21             MR. MUNDIS:  Perhaps Mr. Marcussen can answer that question,

22     Mr. President.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I think the accused is talking about a statement

24     that he is anticipating receiving from the witness.  It's not a statement

25     that OTP has.  We have a set of recordings, not a statement.  But that's

Page 5318

 1     correct, the accused is nodding.  He's anticipating receiving a statement

 2     shortly.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you cannot give

 4     him a hard copy in Serbian of this statement made by Mr. Cele to the OTP.

 5     You don't have this at your disposal, is that it?

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  That's correct.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll have a

 8     20-minute break.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.30 a.m.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I would like the

12     registrar to tell us where we stand regarding time.  If I'm not mistaken,

13     I believe that Mr. Seselj must have an hour and 30 minutes left.

14             Witness, please, I have a question for you and I think it's an

15     important question, like all of my questions, but this one is really

16     important.

17             We have just discovered that on February 26th, 1993, i.e., not

18     long after what happened to you, you made an official statement you

19     signed relating what had happened, and giving the names of the

20     perpetrators of what had been done to the prisoners.  Then a few years

21     later in 1996, you were heard by the OTP once again, and then here you

22     integrate Seselj's men.  You integrate them by drawing a sketch of the

23     administrative building where, on the second floor, you're saying that

24     there's presence of these -- of Seselj's men.

25             So I'm wondering why it is that on February 26th, 1993, you

Page 5319

 1     didn't say it right away.  Why did you wait a couple of years to say

 2     this?  So I'm wondering whether your memory wasn't refreshed in 1996 and

 3     that your memory being refreshed, you were able to locate Seselj's men on

 4     the sketch.

 5             So could you please tell us what exactly this is all about.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for an explanation, I gave a

 7     great many statements, different ones, to some sort of human rights

 8     organisations that were milling around me from the moment I arrived,

 9     until my latest, most recent statements.  And already at the time, I knew

10     that certain men were Seselj's men because that's what they were referred

11     to by others while we were incarcerated and quite simply, when the

12     investigator came in 1996, that is, I did my best to provide as detailed

13     information as possible within the frameworks of my knowledge.

14             Now, how come that is not to be found in what I provided in 1992

15     or 1993 whenever it was, 1993, I think, I can't remember having given

16     that statement, but I'm quite sure that it was about the same people, if

17     you look at the nicknames and everything else, you would be able to

18     deduce that it's about the same people.

19             Now, whether the person who took down the statement at the time

20     skipped over certain things or -- well, I don't know.  I can't really

21     say.  He might not have taken down the events as I recounted them.  I

22     can't remember now.  But if you look at the chronology and look at the

23     names of the people that appear there, then I knew in 1992 as well

24     because the other guards and the soldiers that we came into contact with

25     or rather we heard through the guards, that they were Seseljevci or

Page 5320

 1     Seselj's men, that's what people called them, so I'm telling you this on

 2     the basis of what I heard, I could not myself ascertain who belonged to

 3     what organisation, who, what, where, when.  So I'm recounting it to the

 4     best of my recollections and knowledge.  So neither in 1992 or 1996 can I

 5     say with certainty that they were Seselj's men and I can't do that today

 6     because I don't have insight into the documents to tell me who was a

 7     member of Seselj's party or not.  I just said what I heard from the other

 8     guards and perhaps because I said that I had heard this, the person

 9     taking down the statement failed to record it, failed to put it in the

10     statement.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

12     answer.  The cross-examination will now resume.  The registrar gave me

13     the time left.  You have one hour and 45 minutes left, Mr. Seselj.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, I assume that in the place you live now and watch

16     television and that you follow the press, read the papers, that you have

17     certainly heard that there was a trial ongoing in Belgrade against six

18     persons accused of war crimes against the Muslim prisoners and civilians

19     in Zvornik.  Have you heard about that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Among those six, four of them are Zoks, Toro, Lopov, and Bosonac,

22     those were their nicknames, the names that they used.  I don't even have

23     to state their names.  Do you know that they are there?  And I have

24     documents where their names appear but that's not important because it's

25     not my intention to deal with whether they are in fact responsible and

Page 5321

 1     guilty of something or not.  I assume that a special court for war crimes

 2     in Belgrade would have to diligently investigate this and make the right

 3     judgements, so I'm not going to doubt the outcome and I'm not going to

 4     deal with whether they did something or not.

 5             What I have here are certain documents which arrived yesterday

 6     and which I'm going to show you now and I'd like to hear your comments.

 7     They are three statements.  One is a statement by Milorad Gogic, you've

 8     heard about him, have you not?  He was the commander of this Loznica,

 9     group, is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Anyway, he declares himself as being one of Arkan's men here and

12     then we have Sava Sinadinovic's statement, you might not have heard of

13     him, it's a short statement.  And Vojin Vuckovic, nicknamed Zuc, I'm sure

14     you've heard of him.  I have his statement.

15        A.   Yes, I have heard of him.

16        Q.   Well, as I have copies for all members of the Trial Chamber and

17     for the Prosecution, that we place it on the overhead projector, the

18     first of those documents and we'll go through it.  I'm going to read out

19     the paragraphs one by one and you can give me your comments, state your

20     opinion and so on, what you know about whether it is true or not.

21             First we have the statement by Milorad Gogic and we have his

22     particular set out here, his address, the ID card number, and all other

23     data so that the Prosecutor can check all this out during the day as he

24     did in Goran Stopovic's case and the documents that I presented in that

25     regard.  And here is what he says, "I hereby state" and I quote, first

Page 5322

 1     paragraph:  "That with a group of volunteers from Loznica, mostly my

 2     friends, I went to Zvornik at the beginning of April 1992 at the

 3     invitation of the late commander Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, to whom I was

 4     taken by his deputy the late Marko Pejic, Peja, who I knew from before

 5     because I was an active boxer.  My group, which was in Zvornik known as

 6     Gogic's group, was the sole group that took part in the liberation of

 7     Zvornik under the commander of the Serbian volunteer guard and of course

 8     members of the guard who were not from Loznica but who were brought in

 9     there."

10             Then he goes on to say that they never mistreated civilians or

11     prisoners of war and that it was only after the liberation that he heard

12     that certain crimes had been committed and that he didn't know who the

13     perpetrators were.  He assumes that they were self-organised paramilitary

14     formations who were to blame.

15             Then he goes on to say, "I remember that over there, the groups

16     that were active were Pivarski's, Niski, Vojin Vuckovic, Zuca's group,

17     the Yellow Wasps, the White Eagles, and during a certain period, a group

18     separated from Zuca, that was led by Zena [phoen] the Chetnik and there

19     were goodness knows how many other groups.  Quite simply, a few people

20     would gather together and without anybody's command as they saw fit, they

21     would move around Zvornik and the surrounding parts and stories linked to

22     looting and the persecution of civilian persons and all other acts were

23     linked to them, acts that were not commensurate with decent soldiers of

24     the kind that were in my group and the group I headed.

25             Do you have any comments to make to that?

Page 5323

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Go ahead.

 3        A.   Well, first of all, during my testimony yesterday in what I said,

 4     I mentioned that we loaded up some goods for Gogic on one occasion.

 5     That's the first point.  He had a red Golf car.

 6             Number two, secondly, his group, well, they called themselves as

 7     belonging to him, and they didn't come into -- but Stuka, Sarma [phoen],

 8     Kardelj, they were the people I mentioned yesterday, Mile Rogonja and the

 9     rest, friends of his from Loznica.  How should I put this?  They beat us

10     most.  And I do know that a prisoner, I don't want to mention his name in

11     open session, with another man, I remember that man's name -- well, I

12     remember him mostly by his nickname, but this group of Loznica men took

13     them to the kindergarten, the nursery that was in the centre of Zvornik

14     and they cleaned it up because they said the Loznicari were put up there,

15     according to what they told me, and they said that they would come across

16     blood everywhere and footwear and things like that when they cleaned up

17     the place.

18             Furthermore, a group of people who was incarcerated in the SUP

19     building in Zvornik and there is a man, he is married now, who's still

20     alive, and a man from Gogic's group, Stuka, the leader, carved in a cross

21     on his forehead with a knife and you can see the scar today.  So that's

22     as far as when people said that they had nothing to do with that.

23             Now, as for this other part, Pivarski, we would also see him, he

24     introduced himself as Pivarski and he didn't have half a hand.  And

25     although I can't say that I ever saw him do any harm to anyone.  Niski, I

Page 5324

 1     also mentioned him yesterday.  Now, whether some things were staged or

 2     not, I don't want to go into that, but I just remember on one occasion,

 3     if I can recount a detail, if the court considers it important.

 4        Q.   Just may I have brief answers, please, because my time is

 5     limited.  We will have time to go into them, you've already mentioned

 6     some things but let's see what Gogic has to say in his statement further

 7     down and then you will be able to comment.

 8        A.   Well, I knew Niski anyway.  Vojin Vuckovic, Zuta, I have heard of

 9     the Yellow Wasps, or Zuta Osa.  As for the Beli Orlovi White Eagles, I

10     don't know who their leader was, there were various groups and

11     Simo Chetnik, I don't know.  I have perhaps heard of him but I really

12     don't know about him.

13        Q.   All right.  We -- I skipped a sentence here where he says that

14     when he went to Zvornik, there were no members of the Serbian Radical

15     Party there but that many introduced themselves as being Vojvodas and

16     that is in between the two underlined paragraphs.

17             Now he goes on to describe Zvornik's liberation on the 9th of

18     April, he said he returned to Loznica on the 13th of April and then he

19     was called by Colonel Stupar, he was the commander of the Special Pancevo

20     Brigade, the unit from Pancevo, to assist in the liberation of Kula Grad.

21     And he goes on to say that on the 26th of April, Kula Grad fell, and then

22     on page 2, and I've underlined this portion, what I would like to focus

23     on, which is the interesting part for you to comment, he says:  "On that

24     day, my deputy was killed, Branko Djokic.  And my group together with me,

25     that same evening withdrew from Zvornik.  In the meantime, in the Zvornik

Page 5325

 1     MUP, as chief, Milos Pantelic was appointed, a retired policeman from

 2     Loznica, who before that was for many years chief of the traffic police.

 3             "In view of the fact that various paramilitary units which I've

 4     already spoken about continued to move around Zvornik unrestrained, I was

 5     invited by Arkan to return to Zvornik to help out Pantelic to establish

 6     law and order in town.  I did go back to Zvornik at about the 10th of

 7     May, 1992 and there, I formed a special police unit and led that unit.

 8             "Since that time, I was under the command of the chief,

 9     Milos Pantelic and the chief of the state security, Goran Jugic and I

10     received orders exclusively from them.

11             "I was invited to come back to Zvornik, first of all because of

12     the problems that were caused there by Zuca's unit, I immediately upon my

13     arrival called up Zuca to have a talk with him and I gave him a deadline

14     by which he should leave Zvornik with his men so that the situation could

15     return to normal in town.

16             "Zuca left Zvornik and took control of Crni Vrh.  I was wounded

17     in an action at Kamenica on the 30th of May, 1992 and the commander of

18     the unit which I had formed was taken over by my deputy Milos Zetsic who

19     otherwise was a staff Glinica and was born in Loznica and he was also a

20     former boxer, very heavily-built man.

21             "After I was wounded and after I left Zvornik while I was in

22     hospital, I was visited by the then president of the municipality

23     Brano Grujic and the chief of MUP, Milos Pantelic, and they complained to

24     me that they had problems with my men, who most probably behaved in an

25     unseemly manner because in those actions in Zvornik, we in fact had lost

Page 5326

 1     a number of men, specifically in Kamenica where I myself was wounded.

 2             "Of us, 23 were killed and another two in addition to me were

 3     wounded.  When I recuperated, I went to Zvornik to disband the unit and I

 4     did that in mid-June 1992.

 5             "Now, whether any of my men in the meantime returned to Zvornik,

 6     I cannot know that because they were private visits and I would go there

 7     myself because at that time, I was going out with a girl from Zvornik and

 8     she is my present wife.  So with my girlfriend, I went to the seaside in

 9     July and a group of people from my unit returned to Zvornik.  I assume

10     pursuant to somebody's invitation and they waited for me to return from

11     the seaside in order to become included in the SUP of Zvornik again.  I

12     was no longer interested in anything like that and I received information

13     that the authorities of Republika Srpska would arrest members of the

14     paramilitary formations in Zvornik.  So I definitely returned from

15     Zvornik at the end of July, the day before this round-up and arrest.

16             "From the very beginning, the unit that I commanded and let me

17     repeat, it was part of the Serbian volunteer guard, and with me, there

18     were Zeljko Mitrovic, nicknamed Stuka; Dejan, Kurkin; Novak Senadin, aka

19     Lale who is 100 per cent invalid without an arm and a leg; Prlic,

20     nickname Prlje; Adamovic nicknamed Sanic; Mile Curic nicknamed Rogonja;

21     Rade Zvanji [phoen] nicknamed Kardelj; Zoran nicknamed Macak; Rajkovic,

22     nicknamed Sarma; Roki whose name I don't remember; Zeba and others.

23             "I do know at that time in Zvornik, there was a so-called

24     Kraljevacka Grupa from Kraljevo which also acted independently and that

25     the leader of that group was Dragan Slavkovic, nicknamed Toro, whom I in

Page 5327

 1     fact did not know but I knew of his existence.

 2             "There were some other groups there too from the territory of

 3     Zvornik municipality.  In fact, they were from the surrounding villages

 4     to Zvornik, for example, Kobra, Glavonja, Jelat.  A man called -- some

 5     Jovici people, I didn't know them personally because they were people

 6     from the local area and did not belong to any of the units I mentioned

 7     earlier on."

 8             Now we come to the last paragraph which says:  "In Arkan's guard

 9     there was a man nicknamed Niski who after the withdrawal of the Serbian

10     volunteer guard remained and formed his own unit which acted as a

11     paramilitary unit.  The paramilitary unit, [Indiscernible] also had a

12     paramilitary unit.  I don't know how many men it numbered.  I remember

13     that in Zvornik, there was an elderly man from Snagovo who introduced

14     himself as being a Vojvoda and everybody addressed him as Vojvoda.  He

15     always wore a Serbian peasant cap with a cockade but he didn't belong to

16     a single formation.  I know that not a single paramilitary unit had

17     anything to do with the Serbian Radical Party."

18             Then he goes on to state that he gave the statement voluntarily

19     without any pressure or coercion and that he agreed that it could be used

20     in The Hague Tribunal.  We have the stamp of the 4th Municipal Court and

21     District Court in Belgrade on the 24th of March and it was faxed to me on

22     the 25th of March.

23             Now, having heard this statement of his read out or most of the

24     statement read out, do you consider that this group, Gogic's group,

25     represented volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party or not?

Page 5328

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm not receiving any interpretation.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please go to the bathroom

 4     very briefly and I'll be back?  Very quickly.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, can you then go over

 6     all the text during the break.  I am tired from reading this document.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please do.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. The president, to avoid wasting

10     time, can I please say something that is of procedural nature.  I've just

11     received by fax Miroslav Vukovic's statement and I provided it to the

12     registry staff to photocopy that statement, I have not been provided a

13     photocopy yet and there is also a copy from my book.  It is press

14     conference statement given in 1992 and I would like to present this to

15     the witness as well.  I delivered all this to The Hague Tribunal in 2003

16     together with a set of all of my 80 books.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would like to adduce

18     part of your book which has been disclosed to the Prosecution.  You asked

19     it to be translated and it hasn't been translated.

20             The Prosecutor, do you have any objections or not as far as this

21     book is concerned?

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I think Your Honours have already allowed the use

23     of these kind of statements and similar written material during

24     cross-examination so in order to expedite proceedings, I'm willing to

25     accept the use of these documents today.  I would like to make a point

Page 5329

 1     though.  The accused has read into the record an entire statement.  I

 2     suspect he will be reading other material and the rest of the statements

 3     into the record.

 4             I don't know whether the accused -- what the accused's intention

 5     of doing that is but it's the Prosecution's position that this is not

 6     evidence of the truth of the contents of the statement.  If the accused

 7     wants to introduce this as evidence in the case, he must do it during his

 8     Defence case and he must produce witnesses or comply with the rules of

 9     evidence for the admission of written material in court.

10             So I just want to make sure that there's no confusion later on

11     about whether or not the accused has introduced any evidence into the

12     record during cross-examination.  I'm sure Your Honours, of course, are

13     not confused about this but the accused should not be under any

14     misapprehension as to what he has managed to receive during

15     cross-examination.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as far as your book

17     is concerned, you are not going to read all the excerpts into the

18     transcript because this is a waste of time.  Just put a question to the

19     witness.  "I have written a book which I'm sure you haven't read.  On

20     page 155, for instance, I say, this and that," and I -- you summarise it,

21     you summarise what is on page 155 and then you put the question to him,

22     "Do agree with me or not?"

23             Now, if you would like to adduce this as evidence, you will have

24     ample opportunity to adduce these documents through your own witnesses.

25     As far as facts are concerned, the facts that were said to you by the

Page 5330

 1     person whom you read out, the Chamber has taken a majority decision on

 2     this, you can, on the basis of a document like this one, put a question

 3     to the witness but the Trial Chamber has decided not to admit such

 4     statements which in the view of the Trial Chamber has decided in the

 5     majority not to give it any probative value.

 6             However, you are entitled to call to witness the person who has

 7     written the statement and then you can put the question to him directly,

 8     once you call your own witnesses.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor

10     launched a discussion about nothing, not for a moment did I ask for these

11     statements to be admitted.  I have obtained these statements in order to

12     be able to present them to the witness and hear his opinion on them, his

13     position, his experience with this regard.  And in that sense, I'm using

14     these statements.  What I am denying the right of the Prosecution to do

15     is for tendering statements directly into the file.  I have the right to

16     present the parts of different people's statements on cross-examination.

17     I have not read the entire statement.  I have read most of it and I'm

18     just going to read short excerpts from the other statements and I believe

19     that I marked only two passages in my book, please don't be intimidated

20     by the number of pages, I'm not going to read the entire book but just

21     the two marked passages, and I have photocopied the whole press

22     conference in order to show you the entirety of that press conference and

23     I also photocopied the title page of the book.

24             Please, I would like to ask the Prosecution not to preempt things

25     that are not going to happen.  I have put the witness this question just

Page 5331

 1     to jog his memory.  After having been faced with the largest part of

 2     Milorad Gogic's statement, does he still believe that the so-called group

 3     from Loznica that Gogic was in command of was a group of volunteers from

 4     the Serb Radical Party?  That's all what I would like to know.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I apologise for what

 7     happened a little while ago.  And second of all, I never said that Gogic

 8     was a member of the Serb Radical Party.  I put him in the Kraljevo group

 9     and here, there are a large number of names that I've also mentioned.

10     And third of all, there are some things that are correct in the statement

11     but there are also some things that are not correct in the statement.

12             When we look at the names of the people who appear in the

13     statement, you will see that in my statement, the same names appear

14     especially people from Loznica who beat us most and who inflicted the

15     most harm on us.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, I told you that four of these men are being tried in

18     Belgrade.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And I don't want to prejudice that matter.  What I would like to

21     hear from you is that they were not members of the Serb Radical Party

22     although you said that you never claimed that?

23        A.   I said that they were a group from Loznica with insignia of the

24     military police.  I believe that you will find it in my statements.  They

25     had the war militia's insignia, and the first time they beat us in

Page 5332

 1     Standards and when Niski opposed them, they said to report to Major Marko

 2     if there is something unclear to you because they had the insignia of the

 3     war police unlike Toro who had the insignia of a major, military major on

 4     the left-hand side.

 5             Those who served in the army will know that the ranks are not

 6     worn on the shoulder but on the left-hand side of the blouse.  And we

 7     heard from them and from the others that their leader at the beginning

 8     was Vojvoda Cele.  Why I'm saying that at the beginning because later

 9     on --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness is now

11     talking about other things.  Let's deal with Gogic's group first.  Now

12     he's talking about the Kraljevo group.  And if we have agreed on Gogic's

13     group, that they were not the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, let's

14     take things one at a time.  Let's not allow the witness to answer my

15     question by talking about something else.  I'm asking him about one group

16     and he's talking about another group.

17             I just wanted to intervene in order to stop wasting time.

18        A.   I just wanted to clarify things.

19        Q.   Now I would like to show you a short statement that deals with

20     Pivarski because you mentioned him as well, didn't you?

21        A.   Yes.  Pivarski arrived on one occasion and he brought a man when

22     we were at Ekonomija and then he came back again to inspect on us.  And

23     he told the guards not to beat that man that he had brought, I would not

24     want to mention his name in open session.  And Pivarski also came once

25     when we were incarcerated at Ciglana and he told us that he was a fighter

Page 5333

 1     and that people who beat prisoners were nothing for him and he gave us

 2     cigarettes.  He distributed cigarettes amongst us.

 3             He missed half a hand.

 4        Q.   So you do not accuse him of any crimes?

 5        A.   No, not as far as I could tell he did not commit any crimes.

 6        Q.   I have a statement by Sava Sinadinovic, he is the president of

 7     the district in Banat, who says that at the time, Pivarski was not a

 8     volunteer of the Serb Radical Party and since Pivarski was killed on the

 9     21st of January 1994, you do not ascribe any crimes to him or misdeeds to

10     him so we don't have to deal with him?

11        A.   As far as I know, and as far as I can remember, I did not see him

12     beating anybody.  I know that he did bring in some people who stayed at

13     Ekonomija later on but I never saw him coming and torturing any of the

14     people who were incarcerated with me.

15        Q.   And you did not know at the time that he was a member of the Serb

16     Radical Party?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   But he wasn't and you never claimed he was?

19        A.   Yes, you're right.

20        Q.   Very well, then.  Then we don't have to deal with this statement

21     but what we will find more interesting is a statement provided by Vojin

22     Vuckovic, Zuca, who provides his particulars here and I don't have to

23     repeat them.

24             In the second paragraph of his statement, he says:  "I went

25     together with Miroslav Bogdanovic, Ulemek Semic, also known as Legija, my

Page 5334

 1     brother Dusa Vuckovic on the 7th of April, 1992 to Zvornik where I was

 2     arrested."

 3             Can you please put it on the ELMO.

 4             "At that moment, I did not belong to any political party although

 5     I was in possession of the membership card of the Serbian Chetnik

 6     Movement which I had left on the 3rd of September, 1991.  After the

 7     liberation from detention Ulemek talked to Brano Grujic, the president of

 8     the SDS, and the unofficial commander of the TO Zvornik, Marko Pavlovic.

 9             "Upon Ulemek's proposal, the president of the SDS, Brano Grujic,

10     appointed me the commander of the volunteers Zvornik around the 10th of

11     April, 1992."

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please read more

13     slowly because the interpreters are having a hard time.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Between the 10th and 13th of

15     April, 1992, I was officially appointed commander of the volunteers under

16     the command of the staff of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik.  During

17     the period that I was in Zvornik between the 9th of April and 17th of May

18     and the 2nd of July to 22nd of July 1992, I provided the chronological

19     description of events to the special court in Belgrade.

20             "During my stay in Zvornik, I was familiar with the name

21     Dragan Toro who belonged to the Kraljevo group, the group numbered about

22     52 members who belonged to the White Eagles.  Their commander was

23     Zoran Petrovic also known as Azedeja [phoen].

24             The White Eagles formation belonged to the Serbian popular

25     renewal.  The territorial staff of Zvornik had several groups of

Page 5335

 1     volunteers, among them was a group of volunteers from Sombor under the

 2     commands of Pivarski and I don't know his name, but we have his name, we

 3     know his name.  That group numbered about 15 volunteers who were under

 4     the authority of the Territorial Defence and Marko Pavlovic.

 5             As far as I know, that group did not belong to the Serb Radical

 6     Party and they were isolated from other volunteers from the engineering

 7     barracks.  The aforementioned group was not under my command either.

 8     According to my information that I received.

 9             Subsequently, the person we nicknamed Pufta is not from Serbia;

10     he hails from Zenica in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That person did also not

11     belong to the Serb Radical Party but to the Drina Wolves group,

12     Captain Miloje was in command of that group and that group belonged to

13     the Zvornik brigade.  The person known as Dragan, whose family name I

14     don't know and whose nickname was Niski, was married to a girl from

15     Borovo Selo and he belonged to the Serbian volunteer guard whose

16     commander was Major Pera.

17             Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was the Commander of Serb volunteers.

18     Sasa, I know as a close friend, and Brano Grujic was the local.  So it

19     was possible that Brano Grujic engaged them in raising volunteers for the

20     Territorial Defence of Zvornik.

21             Sasa commanded the group of some 15 and 20 volunteers from

22     Mali Zvornik but I don't know that they were members of the Serb Radical

23     Party.  Sinisa Filipovic I knew personally.  He had arrived with a group

24     of 16 volunteers from Zuma.  They say that they were members of the Serb

25     Radical Party.  This group of volunteers arrived at the beginning of

Page 5336

 1     April and they were not deployed in any unit although they participated

 2     in the liberation of Zvornik.

 3             After that period of the 10th of April, 1992, they were assigned

 4     to the TO Zvornik and they were told to report me to the engineers

 5     together with their Commander Simo also known as Chetnik.  I acted upon

 6     the order and I accepted that unit.

 7             I checked the group.  I made a telephone call to the Serb Radical

 8     Party at the Ohridska Street in Belgrade in order to check on that group.

 9     The secretary whose name was Lada Zilevic [phoen] confirmed to me that

10     the Serb Radical Party had not sent a group of volunteers from Zuma.  As

11     far as I know, Sinisa Filipovic had never served in the army because he

12     was not more than 18 or 19 years of age at the time.

13             I met Gogic only after the liberation of Kula after the 27th of

14     April, 1992.  In his units, there were Zeljko Stuka, Dejan, Sarma and

15     Mila.  They belonged to the boxing club in Loznica that Gogic led and

16     they arrived in the police camouflage uniform with complete armament,

17     long and short rifles.

18             From Vojislav Jekic they had received weapons and they received

19     all the orders from the Territorial Defence staff.  As far as I know,

20     this group had not been sent out by the Serb Radical Party and they did

21     not belong to me either.

22             Then he says about some names that he is not familiar with that

23     they don't ring a bell, Milan Acimovic, Jaje, Sava, Brada, Brka.

24     These names do not ring a bell and then he states that he provided his

25     statement voluntarily, that the statement can be used and on the last

Page 5337

 1     page, you have a confirmation that this was certified by the 4th

 2     Municipal Court in Belgrade.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 4     continues] ... slowly because the court reporter can't keep up with you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in this case, I suppose that

 6     they can correct it because they have a written text before them and they

 7     can do it based on the video recording.  I'm afraid that time is passing

 8     very quickly and that was the reason why I was reading quickly, but I'm

 9     going to do it more slowly.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Based on this statement, sir, do you believe that Zuca had a

12     reason to lie when identifying these people or he can be trusted because

13     he knew these people and he was there on the spot?

14        A.   Whether he lies or not, I can only say on my part, and from the

15     facts that I'm familiar with, from what I know, I still believe that I'm

16     not competent to say whether somebody's lying or not.  There are facts

17     which are credible.  There are also facts which in my view are not

18     credible.  If I could follow you, but I would like to be able to go back

19     to the text again, if I may, I cannot obviously say at the moment

20     whether -- or to what extent was this group from Kraljevo close to the

21     SRS or not but according to my information, they were close judging from

22     what they were saying.

23             There were other groups and names that appear in my statements as

24     well and the two statements more or less concur, although I'd never

25     inspected anybody's documents in order to ascertain some people's party

Page 5338

 1     affiliation, so I believe that there is a concurrence here because in the

 2     conversations that we listened to, they said those things.  I did not

 3     have any insight into those documents.  I am just basing my statement on

 4     what I saw and heard and the conclusions that I arrived at from those

 5     things.  In other ...

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is also an

 7     important moment.  You claimed on several occasions that Dragan Toro was

 8     from Kraljevo and this man, Toro, you characterise him as a Seselj's man

 9     and you said that umpteen times.  Now, we have here a statement saying

10     that as a matter of fact, Toro is a member of the White Eagles.  The

11     White Eagles, that's another political party, that's the Serbian Renewal

12     Movement, that's not the Serbian Radical Party.  So aren't you confused

13     in your mind?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I said at the outset

15     that there are things that are accurate and things that I agree but also

16     there are things that I don't agree with and I wanted to go back to that.

17     So there are quite a few names that are repeated throughout my statement

18     and that tally on what is in those statements.  But based on what I saw,

19     what I heard, what I went through, and based on what they were talking

20     about amongst themselves, the Kraljevo group were Seselj's men.  That's

21     the way they represented themselves to us and that's how other people

22     spoke about them.  So if somebody congratulates somebody else on his

23     promotion, that Seselj had promoted him and this other man then thanks

24     for the congratulations then he is a member of that party.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 5339

 1        Q.   But why then in your statement that you provided in Vienna less

 2     than a year after your ordeal, why did you not say that these were

 3     Seselj's men, that they said that they were Seselj's men?  You'd never

 4     mentioned Seselj's men.  You got some more information from the Muslim

 5     secret police AID.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It has been asked and answered by the witness

 8     already.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  You seem to

10     suggest without any evidence, unless you have evidence, but if you do

11     have evidence, you've got to produce it.  You seem to say that from

12     Vienna to The Hague, or during that period, the witness was contacted by

13     the secret service from Bosnia-Herzegovina, that basically prompted him

14     on this matter.  What do you base this on, is this just speculation or is

15     it something certain?  If this is a certainty, you have to support this

16     with really strong evidence.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you saw in the case

18     of the Croat witnesses that the Prosecution has submitted evidence to me

19     of the fact that they had been processed by the Croatian intelligence

20     service prior to their testimony.  I know that the OTP has evidence that

21     the AID prepped witnesses for their testimony before the Tribunal in

22     The Hague.  This is an open secret in Republika Srpska and if you are now

23     asking me to go into the AID archives myself and to get evidence, I can't

24     do that but the Prosecution can do that.  But I have reliable

25     information.  I can't prove it.  I can ask every witness whether they

Page 5340

 1     were questioned by the AID and every each and one of them will say no.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm going to ask the

 3     question again.  You know that you are under oath and if you ever do any

 4     perjury, you may find yourself in jail.  You are aware of that, aren't

 5     you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did the secret service contact

 8     you before you came to testify?  Answer with a yes or with a no.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well ...

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, I can say --

12     fine.

13        Q.   At page 11 of your 1996 statement, second paragraph, you say that

14     Major Dragan, nicknamed Toro, from Kraljevo had a black military booklet

15     that a identified him as a member of Seselj's army; is that so?

16        A.   If I may correct you, I said that on one occasion when we were

17     loading things up in Zvornik, Major Toro took out a large sum of German

18     marks and handed it over to Pufta telling him, "You know how to do a good

19     job."  And then from other pocket, he retrieved another heap of German

20     marks.  We were standing up there on the truck loading things up.  And if

21     you see a large amount of money, this is something that simply is quite

22     riveting.  Everybody looked at him.  And there was some kind of a card

23     that looked like a booklet.  I never did say that I saw his membership

24     card or anything.  There was something left in his hand.  He was holding

25     it in his hand.  It was black.  I can't recall whether the letters were

Page 5341

 1     gold or silver but it says, Serbian Radical Party.  Now, whether this was

 2     his membership card or not, I can't say that because I did not hold that

 3     in my hand.  I was maybe -- the distance between the two of us was

 4     probably as the distance between me and the lady who is sitting here in

 5     front of me.  I saw this large amount of cash that he was holding in his

 6     hand and this drew my attention and I looked at it and that's why I kept

 7     looking and I saw it.  And that's what I said, it looked like a card.

 8        Q.   Well, your statement at page 11 states something quite

 9     differently.  Could I please have it up on the screen both in English and

10     in Serbian.  This can be done, this can also be shown to the public.

11     Second paragraph, page 11 of your statement.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you able to do that.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I don't believe the statement is uploaded into

14     e-court as an exhibit so we will have to work from a hard copy.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please don't take the one that I

16     have.  That's the only one that I have.  Could you please take it from

17     the Prosecution.  He has the Serbian version too.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  We are being turned into the accused's case

19     manager, I note.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you should have been my

21     assistants five years ago if you done your job properly because you do

22     know that it is your obligation to prosecute those of having been

23     suspected of committing war crimes and to provide exculpatory material to

24     them so you were supposed to do that with the same diligence yet you

25     failed to do so and that's the problem of the Tribunal's Prosecution.

Page 5342

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's leave aside any

 2     criticism.  We'll look at this document which we're going to put on the

 3     ELMO.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you have it in Serbian, if you

 5     don't, then I'll give it to you.  I've changed my mind.

 6        Q.   Can you see it now on the ELMO?  It's the second paragraph at

 7     page 11.  You describe this Major Dragan, nicknamed Toro, and in last

 8     sentence, could you please read the last sentence.  It is your statement.

 9             Could you please be so kind as to read the last sentence.

10        A.    "I saw his black-coloured military ID that identified -- that

11     said he was a member of the Seselj's army."

12        Q.   So what do we see from here?  First of all, that this military ID

13     was black; is that right?  And you had to see it from closer up to be

14     able to read that he was a member of Seselj's army.  Did it say Seselj's

15     army on it?

16        A.   Well, this is how it was.  I probably said, I can't recall word

17     for word what I said, but I said what I told you.  And probably as it was

18     interpreted into English and then back into Bosnian, some things were

19     worded differently and this is probably why this sentence reads as it

20     does.

21        Q.   Well, did you read the statement before you signed it?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please read out slowly

24     that sentence in your language, because we have the English version which

25     is being challenged.  And it starts with the following word in your

Page 5343

 1     language, "video," so please read out that sentence slowly.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I saw his black military ID where

 3     it was written he was a member of Seselj's army."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked for the

 5     Serbian and the English version to be put side by side, if it's possible.

 6     It was possible before when the Prosecution calls its evidence, then it's

 7     possible.  You don't have the English.  What's the problem?  You can put

 8     one underneath the other.  You can maybe bend the sheet of paper and put

 9     it right underneath it.  I'm all for modern technology, I'm an expert.  I

10     would have found a solution right away.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar tells me that

12     that can be done on e-court, to have a split screen.  And we can see that

13     on the ELMO as well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here:  "[In English]

15     [Previous translation continues] ... coloured military ID that identified

16     him as a member of the Seselj army."

17             [Interpretation] It's a perfect translation, even I, who can't

18     speak English, can tell you that let alone those who actually speak

19     English.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] So the booklet was black and it identified him

21     as a member of Seselj's army.  Well, I can't speak English but it's all

22     crystal clear to me right away.  So it's the same, sir, in both

23     statements both in the English version and in the Serbian version, is

24     that not so, Mr. VS-1013?

25        A.   Well, I'm not an expert for English language but that's probably

Page 5344

 1     what it says.

 2        Q.   So in order for you to state that, you first had to see the black

 3     military ID card; is that so?

 4        A.   Let me go back to what I've already told you and that is the way

 5     in which I saw it, the circumstances.  I explained to you how I came to

 6     see it.  I'm sure that after reading this statement, when most -- when 90

 7     per cent of the things are correct, you don't go back to every comma,

 8     every --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we understood what you

10     said, but you saw a card, a black card from a distance saying "Serbian

11     Radical Party," why don't you conclude from that that this is a card for

12     a political party?  Whilst what you say that this is a card whose holder

13     is a member of the army.  So you're talking about two different things.

14             What you saw, which was in black, Serbian Radical Party or

15     something like that, why do you draw the conclusion that this shows that

16     that person belongs to Seselj's army, if he had an army at all.  As far

17     as you know, did Mr. Seselj have an army?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have some objections to your

19     question, Mr. President.  The witness never mentioned the Serbian Radical

20     Party nor are there any black ID cards of the Serbian Radical Party.  He

21     said a military ID card where it was written that he was a member of

22     the -- of Seselj's army.  And throughout his statements, he talks about

23     Seselj's army and for me this is the crucial part of his statement

24     because this is where his whole testimony fails and that's why I am

25     insisting on this.  I'm not going to insist on anything else.

Page 5345

 1             First of all, what are those military ID cards that are black?

 2     Nobody has ever seen them.  I think that thousands of witnesses have gone

 3     through the OTP and nobody ever mentioned any black military ID cards on

 4     any side.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, this piece of

 6     cardboard or this card that you saw from a distance of some 10 metres

 7     because you said that you were some distance which is the distance

 8     between the lady in front of me and you, so that is some 10 metres.  What

 9     enables you to say that this card you saw was a military ID card?  My

10     question is this:  Aren't you making some confusion with a card showing

11     that that person who holds it is a member of a political party?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot remember what

13     I had said at that time exactly, word for word, but I always say I heard,

14     I thought, whenever I'm talking about things that I did not personally

15     see.  When I was giving this statement, I probably said to the person

16     taking the statement that it was probably this ID card.  I did not see

17     this ID card to be able to claim that with 100 per cent certainty.  So I

18     probably said it was probably some kind of a membership ID card or a

19     military ID card just as I said that to you.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could that have been an ID card from a funeral society?  You know

22     that those things exist.  You pay a certain fee on an annual basis and

23     then they pay for your funeral when you die.  How were you able to say

24     that this was a military ID card?

25        A.   Well, I didn't know that it was a military ID card.  I didn't see

Page 5346

 1     it.  I assumed that this was some kind of a military ID card or a

 2     membership ID card.

 3             Secondly, it could have been of any character because I didn't

 4     hold it in my hands.  I wasn't able to see whether it contains the

 5     information about the military assignment but let me repeat that I

 6     probably phrased this in the same way as I did just now because I always

 7     indicate that there is a certain level of probability involved in what I

 8     say if this is something that I did not see myself.

 9        Q.   I am asking you about things that you say you saw.  You did your

10     national service in the JNA?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And I assume that you remember what the military ID card or

13     booklet of the JNA looked like.  It was olive-green, it contained about

14     40 or 50 pages, it was maybe 12 by 6 centimetres, well, approximately

15     something like that?

16        A.   Yes, approximately.

17        Q.   Now, this booklet, was it the same size, bigger or smaller,

18     thicker or thinner, than the military JNA booklet?

19        A.   I think it was smaller and thinner.

20        Q.   You say smaller and thinner.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And it was black?

23        A.   It was black and there was a cockade on it.

24        Q.   You mean the two-headed eagle, the Serbian coat of arms?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 5347

 1        Q.   Now, did it say on it, "Seselj's army"?

 2        A.   It certainly didn't say that.

 3        Q.   Did it say the Serbian Radical Party?

 4        A.   It did say that.

 5        Q.   So on that booklet, it was written the Serbian Radical Party; is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   Yes, I think it says Serbian Radical Party.

 8        Q.   Well then it could have been a membership card of the Serbian

 9     Radical Party?

10        A.   Well it could have been.  It was some sort of card and in format

11     and size, it was in between the old type of ID cards used in the former

12     Yugoslavia and a military booklet.

13        Q.   Well, the Serbian Radical Party now has about half a million

14     members and this is broadcast over the internet, it will be shown on

15     Serbian television this evening.  And all half million people and those

16     10.000 who used to be members and then left the Serbian Radical Party

17     know full well that the Serbian Radical Party never had black booklets or

18     the Serbian Chetnik movement either, absolutely never.

19             So are you sure that that was a membership card then of the

20     Serbian Radical Party?

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Okay.  The witness didn't say that he knows that

22     it was a membership card of the Serbian Radical Party, it was put to him

23     as a proposition that it could have been a membership card.  He said,

24     yes, it could have been and now he is being confronted with this as if he

25     affirmed himself that it actually was a membership card.

Page 5348

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is another angle that

 2     nobody ever saw before me.  You saw this card with bank notes, we agree

 3     on that, don't we, this card was held together with bank notes.  The bank

 4     notes must have been taken from Muslims because it seems that they were

 5     looting at the time.  Couldn't this card have come from somebody else?

 6     What is there that makes it possible for you to connect the one holding

 7     the card and him?  Couldn't that card have been found somewhere else or

 8     couldn't he have held the card?  Because if it was his own card it would

 9     be in his own wallet.

10             These bank notes, from what I understood, did not seem to come

11     from the wallet of that individual.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Judge, he didn't take it out of

13     his wallet, he took it out together with the money, the wad of money that

14     I think he took out of this pocket here and then he separated that from

15     the wad and held it in his hand.  And I said this -- well, it appears

16     that I claim but I said that I drew the conclusion on the basis of what I

17     saw it said on it and with the double-headed eagle, that that was it.

18     Because while he was handing over the money, he was holding this in his

19     other hand and then put it back in his right hand and then put it back in

20     his left hand pocket.

21             So I can't say with 100 per cent certainty that it was his,

22     that's my first point because I didn't see what it actually said inside,

23     I just assumed, this is my assumption.  I assumed that it belonged to him

24     and that that was it, but I can't say with 100 per cent certainty that it

25     might not have been his proposal for a new card, for a new party card or

Page 5349

 1     whatever, but I just saw this in his hand and from that I deduced what I

 2     did and said that I assumed that that's what it was.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, maybe we should move

 4     on to something else.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.  Do you

 6     remember seeing the words, "Serbian Radical Party" written on it as you

 7     said on page 70, line 11?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Judge, please.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

10     ... Serbian Radical Party in the transcript, Serbian Radical party.  I

11     don't know whether what you said was translated properly.  This is why I

12     put the question to you again.  Did you see the written words "Serbian

13     Radical Party"?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what it said, the Serbian

15     Radical Party with the two-headed eagle.  Now, how that was formulated,

16     well, sometimes I speak fast, so I go on from one thing to another.

17             Now, how it was recorded ...

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Since you mention in

19     your prior statement "Seselj's army," you do not speak of the

20     Serbian Radical Party in your prior statement, did you draw a conclusion

21     from the fact that the words Serbian Radical Party were written, did you

22     deduce from that, deduct from that or deduce that it was Seselj's army?

23     You see there is a contradiction and I don't quite understand it.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that was my conclusion.

25     That was my conclusion.  Now, legally speaking, I don't know how you

Page 5350

 1     differentiate between the two.  At home, we -- well, there are a lot of

 2     surnames that come from somebody's name, so the followers of someone

 3     usually take their name from the leader, that's why I might have said it

 4     that way.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Remember that you are a fact

 6     witness so you're not here to draw conclusions, you are to testify as to

 7     the facts.  Please remember that.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please continue.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, in your statement, the statement which you signed,

12     you said:  "I saw his black-coloured military ID on which it said that he

13     was a member of Seselj's army."

14             Now, the fact that you're trying to make this statement relative

15     now is another matter altogether.  However, on that same page you go on

16     to say the following when referring to Zoks and Pufta and Sasa, that they

17     held certain ranks in Seselj's army.

18             First of all, let me ask you how you recognised these men as

19     being Seselj's army, did it say Seselj's army on the uniform, perhaps?

20     What did it say on their uniforms?

21        A.   First of all, I identified them the way other people, the

22     militaries and paramilitaries called them and they referred to them as

23     Seseljevci or Seselj's men.  So I just took on this -- over this title

24     and that's what I called them later too.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 5351

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'm not going to tire you anymore with this because I've achieved

 3     my purpose because your entire statement and testimony has fallen through

 4     on that one point.  I'd like to draw your attention to the documents that

 5     I received from the Prosecutor, some of them I found myself.  You've

 6     already said that you had heard that the special court in Belgrade is

 7     conducting a trial against six individuals and I'd like to refer to the

 8     transcript now of those legal proceedings from the interview of

 9     Dragan Slavkovic, nicknamed Toro of the 1st of December, 2005, where on

10     page 5 he explains the following:  He says that as a reservist, he was

11     engaged by Major Ratko Radojevic and Vesko Cvetkovic from Kos.  And on

12     page 16 it says that as a sniper from the 12th to the 15th of April, he

13     carried out a certain assignment and went back home to Kraljevo.

14             Do you think he's telling the truth there or do you still claim

15     that he was a member of what you called Seselj's army?

16        A.   Mr. Seselj, I saw him at Standard and with a group, Zoks and

17     Pufta and later some others, he took us over towards the end of May and

18     the beginning of June.  Now what he did from the 4th to the 12th of April

19     or May, I really don't know.  What I do know is that he came to Standard

20     when we were in Standard, that he filmed us with a video camera, we had

21     to give our first and last names, tell him where we were from and so on,

22     and afterwards, I saw him at the Ekonomija when he beat Bubica.  I don't

23     think this.  I claim this, I state that.

24        Q.   Well, there's no need to reply what we already heard during the

25     examination-in-chief.

Page 5352

 1        A.   I claim, I can't remember the date but whether it was the end of

 2     May or beginning of June, I'm not quite sure, up until the beginning of

 3     July or the end of June, we went with him and loaded up certain goods in

 4     Zvornik.  And the group that he led at the time, other people referred to

 5     that group as Seseljevci, Seselj's men and that's all I can tell you.

 6             The other soldiers and other groups referred to them as Seselj's

 7     men.

 8        Q.   But you didn't remember that when you gave your statement in

 9     Vienna, isn't that right?  And now I come to my next question:  In the

10     transcript from the examination -- or from the 2nd of December, 2005 on

11     page 30 in the trial in Belgrade, the accused Ivan Korac, nicknamed Zoks,

12     states that as a volunteer he arrived in Zvornik at the invitation of the

13     Serbian association from Bosnia-Herzegovina with its headquarters in

14     Belgrade, Terazije 5 is the address, and he joined Stojan Pivarski's unit

15     where there was Darko Jankovic, Pufta, and Savo, who's surname he doesn't

16     know.  Do you think he's lying in that statement in the trial against

17     him, that he has reason to lie about that?

18        A.   What I can tell you is this:  As far as I know, and it's up to

19     the Court to determine who is lying and who is not and I think I've been

20     invited here as a witness to see what he saw, where he saw it, and how it

21     happened, I know that Zoks went to Standard, used to come to Standard.  I

22     know that he went to the Ekonomija with Vojvoda Cele and that he beat the

23     father of one of the prisoners whose father succumbed to the injuries and

24     died.

25        Q.   But I'm asking you something else.

Page 5353

 1        A.   Just a minute.  I want to tell you what I know about Zoks.  He

 2     can say he's Prince Charles, as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not an

 3     attorney but I'm going to tell you what I know about him and I want to

 4     say that I was a witness when Zoks, and I didn't say this because I

 5     didn't have time to do that, he targeted Kemal Korkutevic with something,

 6     with a cord and he was so frightened that --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Trial Chamber

 8     should intervene here.  Judges, I can't challenge the story told by this

 9     witness about what happened to him.  Probably a large portion of his

10     testimony is the truth, I don't challenge that because crimes did happen.

11     I assume he was beaten up.  But from the statement that he gave in

12     Vienna, we can see that that was of lesser intensity than later on.  And

13     here, the Prosecutor asked for gymnastics in the courtroom, putting up

14     one hand and putting down another instead of giving us a medical report

15     telling us that he couldn't use his left arm properly.  But I don't

16     challenge the fact that he went through a lot of suffering and there's no

17     need for him to repeat his testimony and waste my time.

18             I don't want to interrupt him and intervene.  I think that that's

19     what the Trial Chamber should do and ask him to focus on answering my

20     questions.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Witness, the only

22     question we're interested in as Judges is the following:  We need to know

23     whether the group, Toro, Pufta, Zoks, Sasa, and Sava were volunteers of

24     the Serbian Radical Party.  You seem to say that they were.  However, you

25     are saying this because your other comrades were saying so.  So this is

Page 5354

 1     the core of the matter.  We have a number of elements that seem to

 2     contradict this.

 3             For example, Zoks's statements and the statements of the others

 4     of Toro and so on.  They seem to be people hailing from Kraljevo.  So are

 5     you 100 per cent sure that people were saying that these were Seselj's

 6     men or are you less than 100 per cent sure of that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, according to everything

 8     I learned while I spent time down there, not under the influence of my

 9     friends who were together there with me, and if I want to meet them

10     today, I would hope that we discuss much nicer things because I can't put

11     anything right, what happened happened and I have to live with that so I

12     try to avoid those topics when I see them and talk to them today.  So I

13     avoid the subject, that's my first point.

14             My next point is this, on several occasions I drew my own

15     conclusions and I have been accused of lying so I want to tell you what I

16     saw and heard.  The other groups of the Serbian military and paramilitary

17     formations referred to them as Seselj's men.  So it wasn't from my

18     friends, it was from these other units and formations who called them

19     that way.  I took that on board and that's how I referred to them.  I

20     didn't see IDs for me to be able to say that they were certainly that.

21     And a moment ago, the conclusions that I made on the basis of what I

22     experienced and my suffering are quite simply it turned out that I didn't

23     have the right to make any conclusions so I'm just saying what I saw and

24     what I heard now.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, resume.

Page 5355

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Well, that is in collision with your Vienna statement.  When you

 3     gave the statement in Vienna, you hadn't heard that but you seem to have

 4     heard it several years later when this was needed for certain political

 5     purposes; isn't that right?

 6        A.   Would you tell me what political purposes you are referring to?

 7        Q.   Well, the political purposes thought up by the secret Muslim

 8     service, AID.

 9        A.   Are you accusing me of something, Mr. Seselj.

10        Q.   Well, I am accusing you of instrumentalising your suffering.  You

11     were a victim, you are a victim.  May I just say this to the witness, I'm

12     not insulting him in any way by saying it?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  This is the third time the issue come up about

15     the allegation that there has been somebody influencing the witness.

16     Your Honours already ruled on this, that it was inappropriate without any

17     substantiation and now it's going on again, so I object to this line of

18     questioning.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  You alleged

20     this.  I asked this of the witness directly.  He denied it so don't come

21     back, please.  You're wasting your time and you're wasting everybody's

22     time.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj.  Mr. Seselj, you have referred a few

24     times to the declaration of the -- or the statement made in Vienna.

25     Could you please refresh my memory.  To whom was this statement given?

Page 5356

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This statement was given to the

 2     representatives of the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo, the name of the

 3     person is mentioned at the end.  It was a lady.  Let's avoid going into

 4     closed session, I don't want to repeat the name, but you saw it and I can

 5     find it for you again if need be.  So the Muslim authorities from

 6     Sarajevo sent people to talk to the immigrants and take statements about

 7     the sufferings that they went through before they fled abroad.  I'm not

 8     doubting the veracity of that statement.  I am doubting the subsequent

 9     build-up and what the witness asked me just a minute ago.  I really do

10     believe that he is a victim, that he went through a huge ordeal.  I'm not

11     contesting that.  I know that there were crimes in Zvornik.  However,

12     this suffering of his is being instrumentalised by a build-up that

13     happened later.  The Serbian Radical Party is now being artificially

14     imposed upon this witness and I would like to say that I have completely

15     contested and challenged this statement which is based on the

16     identification and of the military ID of Seselj's army.

17             But then his basic story about his sufferings and ordeal, I

18     believe it's true and I don't think anybody would be able to make all

19     that up but I also believe that these sufferings were built upon

20     subsequently.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's time for a

22     break.  We will break for 20 minutes and we will resume at 10 after 12.

23     You will have 45 minutes left.  So theoretically we should be able to

24     finish the cross-examination.

25                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

Page 5357

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing can resume.

 3             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. VS-1013, now we are going to deal with the statement provided

 6     by Miroslav Vukovic, Celo, which I received only recently.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has been copied for the Judges

 8     and the Prosecutor.  And I would also kindly ask for it to be placed on

 9     the ELMO.  We're going to go through just three short passages in that

10     statement.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In the first paragraph, he provides his particulars where he was

13     born, where he resides, the number of ID, and so on and so forth.  The

14     Prosecutor has already interviewed him for hours.  He says:

15             "I state that I went to Zvornik on the 17th of April, 1992; that

16     I was not the leader of Seselj's men from Kraljevo, neither that I went

17     to Zvornik through the SRS.  The Serbian Radical Party did not have a

18     unit from Kraljevo in the territory of Zvornik.  On several occasions I

19     returned to Serbia and then went back to Zvornik in order to provide the

20     humanitarian aid.  I left Zvornik for good on the 17th of May, 1992, when

21     the JNA withdrew from Zvornik."

22             You see here that he denies your allegations that he was in

23     command of the Kraljevo group.  But what is interesting -- even more

24     interesting is the next paragraph in which he says that you provided a

25     false description of him.  He watched the recording of the trial

Page 5358

 1     yesterday on TV and he says:

 2             "Yesterday, I watched the trial of Dr. Vojislav Seselj at the

 3     Hague Tribunal and I was surprised with the lies that were provided by

 4     the protected witness.  I do not resemble physically to the man that he

 5     describes as Vojvoda Celo, and in the period that the witness talked

 6     about, I was not in Zvornik.  My height is between 172 and 175

 7     centimetres.  At that time I did not weigh 100 kilos.  I didn't have a

 8     big belly; I don't have it now either.  I don't have dark eyes.  I never

 9     sported long black hair.  I did not have a long beard.  I never died

10     either my beard or my hair.  I never had colours in my hair.  I'm a

11     normal man."

12             So he denies the description that you provided to this Court.

13     What do you say?  Is he telling the truth?  Or maybe you were confused

14     when you were providing your statement.

15        A.   First and foremost, I'm not a painter, I can't paint him.  I

16     tried to describe him based on my memory, the way I remember him.

17     Whether we are talking about the same height or the same weight, after

18     such a long period of time, that's how I remember him.

19             You know that it is very difficult to pinpoint somebody's weight

20     or height just by looking at them.  I believe that my memory was much

21     better then than it is today, but I believe that I described him to the

22     best of my recollection and knowledge.  Maybe I was off by a few

23     centimetres or a few kilogrammes.

24             Yesterday, when I was describing him, I said that I did my best

25     to try and estimate their height and weight, if that person was standing

Page 5359

 1     next to me.  After a certain period of time, it's very difficult to

 2     recollect everything.  I provided the description to the best of my

 3     recollection and knowledge.

 4             As for the rest that was said, the person that we saw in Standard

 5     was referred to as Vojvoda Celo.  The person that we saw at Ekonomija was

 6     also referred to as Vojvoda Celo, which means that I adhered to my

 7     statement that he appeared at Standard.  And I also want to say that I

 8     adhere to what I said, that he appeared at Ekonomija.  How, who called

 9     him, how he arrived, I don't know.  I did not have an insight into that,

10     and this goes beyond my competencies.  I am here to say what I saw and

11     what I know and what I assume is correct.

12        Q.   Well, since you have identified so well, how come it never struck

13     you that he limps?  You know what it means when a person limps.  You come

14     from Bosnia; you understand the word.  How come you didn't notice that?

15        A.   While we were at Standard, Sasa told us that this gentleman

16     should not be looked in the eyes and we had to lower our eyes.  I don't

17     know whether he limped or not.  I don't remember that.  And you know that

18     any normal person who is afraid sees things differently and cannot

19     remember all the details.  I described him to the best of my knowledge.

20        Q.   He denies the description that you provided and believes that you

21     have confused him with somebody else, and he goes on to say this:  "After

22     the 14th of September, 1991, I have been an invalid of war."  And I would

23     like to add to that that he was wounded in eastern Slavonia.  And the

24     witness must have noticed that and I would like to add that everybody

25     notices that about him, that he limps.

Page 5360

 1             He goes on to say that he says that a bayonet that you normally

 2     mount on an automatic rifle, it's a very short metal knife.  You know how

 3     the bayonet on the Kalashnikov looks like.

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Very well, then.  He says:

 6             "I had a bayonet on an automatic rifle and I wore it by my left

 7     knee, tied by two ropes; one below the knee and the other above the

 8     knee?"

 9             You know that our soldiers copied heros from American movies and

10     wore their bayonets tied around their legs, and that's how he describes

11     himself.

12             I would like to call upon Mr. Ulrich Mussemeyer, who interviewed

13     me for three days at the Office of the International Criminal Tribunal in

14     Jelena Grusic Street in Belgrade, who saw me and I call upon him to

15     confirm this.  He signed this and this was certified by the second

16     municipal court in Belgrade.

17             You could not identify Zuca either, and at the end of your

18     statement you said that there were two men by the name Zuca.  Do you

19     remember that?  Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you say in the last paragraph -- actually, the penultimate

22     paragraph, that there was one Zuca who was a military officer from

23     Belgrade and that he appeared while you were looting houses in the centre

24     of Zvornik in a car Sierra with Swiss registration plates; that he was

25     very tall, and Toro told that you this was Zuca from Zemun.  And in the

Page 5361

 1     last paragraph, you say there was another Zuca, Vojin Vuckovic, brother

 2     of Dusan Repic, and so on so forth.  You go on talking about him but that

 3     is not important.

 4             Are you aware that you are the only person who mentions two men

 5     by the same nickname Zuca, that nobody else noticed that, that nobody

 6     else is aware of an JNA officer by the name of Zuca, and so on and so

 7     forth?

 8        A.   Mr. Seselj, the person whom Major Toro identified as Zuca from

 9     Zemun, that man pulled over in a blue Sierra with Swiss registration

10     plates.  He got out of the car.  He was sturdily built.  And Toro greeted

11     him.  He told him, "Good day, brother."  And Toro treated him with

12     respect.  This is what I can tell you.

13             When that man left, then Toro said, "This is Zuca.  He is from

14     Zemun.  He is a military special.  He either is or will be the new chief

15     of defence of the town, and he is a good fighter."

16             This second Zuca -- the first Zuca and the second Zuca I saw only

17     once.  The descriptions that I provided about this first Zuca with whom

18     Toro exchanged greetings, I believe that he had a butterfly tattoo on his

19     neck.  As far as I could see and as far as I could describe, the persons

20     that I saw at the moment, I did it to the best of my recollection and

21     knowledge.  I tried to provide the best possible description of that

22     person.

23             I'm sure that I saw this Zuca in the centre of Zvornik.  He

24     pulled the car over next to the kindergarten.  In the centre of Zvornik

25     there is a street between the Namaca building and kindergarten.  He

Page 5362

 1     pulled the car over there.  And we were loading furniture in Zvornik.

 2             And the second Zuca that I was talking about is the person that I

 3     saw when -- in Zamlac.  This is a part of Zvornik where we were loading

 4     furniture onto the lorries.  He came and he was just watching us.  Zoks

 5     was with us at the time.  He told them that we were good, that everything

 6     was okay with us.  And then this person told us that this Zuca is a crazy

 7     man, he is a lunatic.

 8             I don't know whether he said he is crazy or he is just a little

 9     crazy.  I don't remember that.  But this is my only recollection about

10     that meetings with these two people.  People who interviewed me insisted

11     on me trying to describe these people to the best of my recollection.

12        Q.   Do you know that towards the end of July 1992, the authorities of

13     Republika Srpska arrested paramilitary formations from the territory of

14     Zvornik; that a lot of people were arrested on that occasion and that the

15     group included Zuca's group as well?  Are you aware of that?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You're not?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have on the ELMO --

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sorry, I have a problem.  Before

20     we move on to another statement or something of that kind, I would like

21     to get back to the previous statement made by Vukovic, aka Cele, because

22     I need to look at the last page and put a question to the witness.  The

23     reliability and probative value of this is important.  I need to

24     understand what the source of this document is because I find there's

25     some confusion here.

Page 5363

 1             On the last page, on page 9 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, there

 2     is an official stamp together with a signature.  I would like to

 3     reconstruct this.  Is the witness able to read this?  And then we can

 4     have the translation of what we have on our screen.

 5             Can you tell us what this stamp means?  What is inside the stamp?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The number is 5007.  I think that

 7     then it goes on to say 2000, the number is not very legible.  Then it

 8     says Miroslav Vukovic signed in his own hand this document or confirmed

 9     that the signature on this page -- I think, I can't really read it as

10     his, the identity is confirmed on the basis of ID card number 195376.

11     And the identity is -- has been confirmed on the basis of personal ID

12     cards number then it's -- there's nothing there.  The appropriate tax has

13     been paid and then it says here, the second instance, court in Belgrade.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The 26th of March, 2008.

15             So this is a certified signature of the person who has made the

16     statement.  We don't know who was present when this statement was made.

17     Is that how you understand things and is that in line with what's being

18     translated?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way I see it, this means that

20     he gave a statement and the credibility of his statement is guaranteed by

21     his personal ID card.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Please listen.  Let's get back

23     to the truthfulness of this.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, Judge Lattanzi said March

25     2008.

Page 5364

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand that we are

 2     discussing the truthfulness or the validity of the ID card and not of the

 3     statement, have I understood this correctly or not?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, well, I'm not a lawyer but

 5     the way I see it as much as I can understand these things, this means

 6     that his identity was confirmed on the basis of his ID card and that this

 7     is his signature and that he stands behind all that he wrote there.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, good.  That's what I

 9     understood.  Thank you.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  If I may make a comment, Your Honours.  I just

11     like to reiterate the observation that I made before that at this stage,

12     this document cannot be introduced into evidence and in my respectful

13     submission, there cannot be an issue of the veracity of the contents of

14     this declaration.  It's something that has -- certain facts have been put

15     by Mr. Seselj to the witness.  It's being proposed that the witness is

16     wrong based on another description of -- by this person.  The statement

17     cannot be admitted into evidence at this stage.  Either the witness have

18     to come or the statement would have to go in under 92 bis or 92 ter if

19     those requirements can be made at this stage -- at a later stage, sorry.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, Mr. Seselj has

21     not asked this to be tendered into evidence.  Nonetheless, in order to

22     have a source of reference, because we did, in the end, read out the

23     statement, it's on the record, and that's why it is important to

24     understand where this comes from.  It's not only a question of tendering

25     it into evidence or not of admitting it or not, it has to do with the way

Page 5365

 1     in which we will weigh this because it's on the transcript.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to say

 3     something here.  The competent judicial organ does not confirm the

 4     veracity of the statement but the authenticity of the signature and

 5     that's the only thing that matters to us.  As to the contents of the

 6     statement, we will be discussing this throughout this trial and I am

 7     opposed to the Prosecution tendering the -- any statement into evidence

 8     just like that, I am opposed to the Defence doing the same thing.  The

 9     trial must be public but this statement confirmed as authentic by a

10     judicial organ is slightly better than what the Prosecution has offered

11     at times, but I'm not asking for it to be admitted into evidence.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, could you please put the front

14     page of the book "Milan Panic Must Fall."  I marked three passages in

15     this book.  This is the book that I provided to the Prosecution in late

16     2007 in the batch of 80 books.  It contains all my press conferences from

17     1992 and the one that is -- I'm drawing your attention to is from the 6th

18     of August, 1992.  It begins at page 150 and goes on to 152.  I'll read

19     just the parts that were marked.

20             "At this press conference when the news came in that the

21     authorities of the Republic of Serbia arrested some volunteers in the

22     municipality of Zemun, I say the following:  The Serbian Radical Party

23     welcomes the action of the authorities of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina to disarm various, as we call them, paramilitary

25     formations which are nothing but bands of thugs that were terrorising the

Page 5366

 1     peaceful civilian population regardless of their ethnicity and religion.

 2     Breaking up various smuggling channels, war profiteering and so on, we

 3     believed that it was high time for such a move to be made and that those

 4     gangs of thugs should be disarmed, brought to justice, and be held

 5     responsible for all those things that they did in the several months in

 6     the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which

 7     inflicted a great deal of political, economic and moral damage, primarily

 8     to the Serbian people.

 9             "Incidentally, those gangs of thugs did not make any contribution

10     to the war effort in any serious combat.  They did not take part in any

11     serious combat.  All they did was based on looting and terrorising of

12     civilians.  The Serbian Radical Party had nothing to do with them.  Some

13     of them were our volunteers in northern Slavonia, it should actually read

14     eastern Slavonia, so there is a mistake here, and we forced them out of

15     our ranks because of their looting, thefts, and inappropriate behaviour

16     and lack of discipline.  But most of them have had no contacts, nothing

17     to do with us at all.

18             "We believe that in the territory of the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, there can exist only one military organisation and

20     that is the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

21     nothing else."

22             Sir, Witness VS-1013, is this a clear example of distancing from

23     those paramilitary gangs from the area of Zvornik in your opinion?  What

24     is your opinion?  Had you heard this on TV, what would you have said at

25     the time?

Page 5367

 1        A.   Well, let me give you my opinion on what you've just read.  I

 2     think first of all, that it is too late, because if it's August 1992, as

 3     you said, at that time, Zvornik and most of the towns along the River

 4     Drina had already been ethnically cleansed.  I know that for a fact for

 5     Zvornik, I don't know exactly for other places.  I welcome any action,

 6     any initiative aimed at preventing violence against other human beings.

 7        Q.   Do you know that this was the 6th of August, 1992, before the

 8     Tribunal in The Hague was established.  As far as I can remember, the

 9     ICTY was established in 1993, so this is not an expression of fear or an

10     attempt to shift the blame.  It is simply a political response to an

11     event, and I think that you will agree that the Serbian Radical Party at

12     that time was not the ruling party and it could not, on its own, do as it

13     pleased in those matters through its authorities.

14        A.   Well, I don't know much about politics.  As far as I know, you

15     were not in power at the time, that is true, and as far as the text is

16     concerned, if this was the view of the Serbian Radical Party, then I can

17     say that this is perfectly all right.

18        Q.   Now let me go to page 155, if you would be so kind as to show it

19     on the ELMO.

20             When asked by a journalist I give a lengthy response.  It's about

21     the events in Pijelje [phoen] so let me just read the part that pertains

22     to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23             "In Bosnia-Herzegovina, we don't have any military organisations

24     of our own, no formations, but there are our members who are fighting

25     there in the ranks of the Serbian army.  After all, we have a

Page 5368

 1     highly-developed Serbian Radical Party in the Serbian Chetnik movement in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina and all our members there are at the forefront of the

 3     struggle for the freedom of their people and the salvation of their

 4     territories and according to all testimonials, they are amongst the most

 5     conscientious, most disciplined and the bravest.

 6             "The issue of discipline in the ranks and their compliance with

 7     the commands of the Serbian army is never in question.  If anyone does

 8     anything in -- on our behalf that is subject to sanctions, we always do

 9     all we can to bring this person to justice, to have them criminally

10     prosecuted for what they did and no orders were ever given by the Serbian

11     Radical Party for such acts.  So all those war profiteers, smugglers and

12     looters are a normal occurrence in every war.

13             "Throughout our involvement in the struggle of the Serbian people

14     of Serbian Krajina, we have always fought about that.  You have seen

15     yesterday at the press conference some guy by the name of Vukan Drepin

16     [phoen], who was threatening with liquidation and he had some execution

17     list, he was forced out of the ranks of the Serbian Chetnik Movement in

18     September 1990.  He appeared as a volunteer in Slavonia in Borovo Selo,

19     he spent a couple of days, he stole four grenades and fled.

20             "Later on, he joined Arkan, somewhere around Tenja and then he

21     stole nine uniforms and I don't know how many weapons and when he was

22     found out, he fled again.

23             "So we are talking about people like that.  And now they are

24     making those execution lists and let me just add, those execution lists

25     were made in Belgrade, some organisation named the Black Hand was set up

Page 5369

 1     and my name was on this execution list.  So now they are making those

 2     execution lists but the problem is that they are simply registered as

 3     parties, some kind of royalist blocks, and they can simply convene the

 4     press conference.  Journalists cannot verify what is behind what they are

 5     saying and what isn't.  The public treats them as a serious political

 6     party and that is why we need to reregister so that we know what is a

 7     party and what is not, lest all kinds of psychos and criminals could hog

 8     the limelight in the manner that is properly used by political parties

 9     and not to criminal gangs.

10             Some man by the name of Zuca was in Zvornik.  He had the biggest

11     gang, criminal gang there.  He was our volunteer up until the last fall

12     in Slavonia, and he was forced out because of lack of discipline, because

13     of looting.  But he managed to go to Zvornik with his gang and he caused

14     mayhem there and this is why they had to do that.

15             Did you in Bosnia-Herzegovina have a situation where the

16     multi-party system was brought back, where at first, there was a huge

17     number of political parties that were registered because the criteria

18     were low?

19        A.   Yes, I heard that.

20        Q.   For instance, in Serbia, it was enough for somebody to gather 100

21     signatures and to register a political party.  I think it was something

22     similar in your country?

23        A.   Well, I never tried to set up a political party but I believe

24     this is why it was what it was.

25        Q.   Do you know that that's why I urge for the more stringent

Page 5370

 1     criteria for the registration of parties.

 2             And now I have a question of the journalist.  Don't you think

 3     that at this time, you will be the only one to try and punish the

 4     criminals?  This journalist had in mind our previous efforts to stamp out

 5     war profiteering, smuggling and crime.

 6             At page 156, I give the following answer:  "I consider that the

 7     Serbs should arrest somebody if they pilfer during the war and if

 8     somebody killed civilians and if somebody abused civilians.  We Serbs

 9     always had an army of knights that --"

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm sorry.  Perhaps

11     the Judges disagree with me, but I don't think this is right.  You are

12     testifying.  You are reading out entire pages.  That is my personal point

13     of view and you are making fun of us.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, these aren't pages

15     and pages, they are just three excerpts.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, rather than reading

17     out pages and pages, and smart people would say that you are advertising

18     your book, it might have been better to put the question to the witness

19     in such a way, "In a book I wrote, I criticised the criminals and asked

20     the paramilitaries to be dismantled.  Have you heard of anything of that

21     sort?"  The witness then can answer, "I have heard about it.  I haven't

22     heard it.  I don't know anything about your book."  Then you move on to

23     something else.

24             Because, in fact, this technique is designed to make us

25     understand that you took a public stance against the paramilitaries,

Page 5371

 1     against those people who were acting under various political labels

 2     whereas these were mere criminals.  This is understandable.  You can call

 3     your own witnesses and you can adduce your own evidence, but in this

 4     case, we have a witness who is not a Serb, he certainly hasn't read your

 5     book, and he can't help you much with his answers.  So this is what we

 6     are telling you and we are telling you this in your own interests.  It's

 7     not to prevent you from defending yourself.  This is in our own interest.

 8     All this time we have spent on this could have been cut down to a few

 9     sentences and you could have put your questions.

10             I'll give you the floor back.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First, this book is an authentic

12     document dating back to 1992.  It's a document for which I consider that

13     the -- I'm sure the Prosecution doesn't mean to challenge it.  Secondly,

14     from this entire book I'm just reading out three paragraphs, and I

15     started reading the third one a moment ago, and it is on that basis that

16     I wanted to ask the witness a number of questions and round off my

17     cross-examination.

18             Now, this seems to bother you.  I think that the book is

19     sufficient proof and compulsive evidence.  Now, the witness hasn't read

20     the book and you haven't read the book and it seems that the Prosecution

21     hasn't read the book either so these three paragraphs must have been read

22     and if you read the whole book you'll come across many similar examples

23     whereas as it so happens this relates to the arrest of paramilitary gangs

24     in Zvornik and you weren't even ready to wait for me to ask my question.

25     May I be allowed to continue and then ask my questions.

Page 5372

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just put your question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to read the third paragraph

 3     before I do that because without it there is no question.  I can't ask my

 4     question.  Just three minutes of your patience.  I don't think that's too

 5     long.  I do expect those three minutes of patience on your part.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have 15 minutes left.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I consider that the Serbs should arrest someone if they pilfer

10     during the war, if somebody killed civilians, if somebody abused

11     civilians.  We Serbs always had a chivalrous army which fought the enemy

12     as you would fight an enemy on a battlefield but it never used to test

13     its bravery over women, children or civilians of any nationality.  And I

14     consider that the government of the Serbian Republic of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina did well for starting to instill law and order on its

16     territory and these gangs of thugs tried to take over power in Zvornik

17     after all.  That happened too and nobody could deal with them.

18             Sometimes, you find yourself in a situation very easily as in a

19     situation like that.  It hasn't happened yet but it might happen that

20     these gangs of thugs, some will violate a truce if a truce is established

21     and stage a conflict.

22             If you cannot keep a military formation under control on your own

23     territory, then quite simply, you've lost.  You've lost the battle.

24     Discipline must be respected and the authority of power must be respected

25     as well.

Page 5373

 1             You know, if Serbian authority has been established, then all the

 2     formations must listen to that Serb authority and be accountable to it,

 3     to carry out its instructions.  If somebody fails to do that then he

 4     represents an impediment, an obstacle to that Serb authority.  And

 5     especially in cases where they didn't loot Muslims and Croats but

 6     principally the Serbs who happened to be on their territory, in order to

 7     loot Croats and Muslims, they would have to cross over to their territory

 8     in principle, they're all great cowards and they're not inclined to do

 9     that, and then they take what they find closest to hand.  That's where

10     they act and they carried over some property over here.

11             Now, Mr. VS-1013, are you familiar with a situation like that,

12     that in Zvornik, there was looting of Muslim property first and when

13     there was no more Muslim property to loot, they started looting Serb

14     property?  I think you said something about that too yourself?

15        A.   Yes, I am aware of that situation and I said that during

16     yesterday's testimony, what happened was people would light up Serb house

17     on a house, they would knock on the door, Toro did that, and when nobody

18     came to open the door, then he would say, "Break in."  He would tell us

19     to break in.  We would storm the house and he would pick some items that

20     he took a fancy to and we had to load them up on to the truck.

21        Q.   Do you know that in the spring of 1992, large groups of Serb

22     refugees from Tuzla appeared, Zivinice and even from Kladanj as well,

23     Srebrenik and other places in Central Bosnia?

24        A.   Well, I am aware of that because while we were loading up goods

25     all over Zvornik, people would come in frequently and select houses and

Page 5374

 1     then they tried to send us away and say that that was going to be their

 2     property from now on because they had taken it over.

 3        Q.   But they had left their property behind, what they had in Tuzla,

 4     Kladanj and other places; isn't that right?

 5        A.   Probably.

 6        Q.   And they now sought refuge and they looked for abandoned Muslim

 7     houses to move into and they wanted to have the furniture remain this in

 8     those houses whereas these gangs of thugs did not allow that but seized

 9     furniture and anything else, any other goods they found in them?

10        A.   Yes, I agree with you there.

11        Q.   So they didn't demonstrate elementary humaneness.  If people were

12     left without a roof over their heads and left behind all their property,

13     they come to Zvornik and see property abandoned by the Muslims and they

14     didn't even have the possibility of moving into these abandoned houses

15     because these gangs of thugs, first of all, wanted to loot the

16     properties?

17        A.   I'd just like to put you right because most of the Muslims were

18     expelled and what remained, all of them were gathered together in front

19     of the department store and they were sent to Subotica, women and

20     children, and they were forbidden to take any property with them except

21     what they could fit into small bags.

22        Q.   Well, we'll have a possibility of testing and seeing whether the

23     Muslims were expelled, how they came to leave, whether there was pressure

24     or not.  I don't say that they didn't leave.  I do agree that there was

25     pressure to make them leave but no official persecution but they were

Page 5375

 1     mistreated which made them reach a decision to leave, like your arrest,

 2     like the fact that people were beaten, looted property and so on?

 3        A.   As far as I was able to learn from what people told me and from

 4     what I saw, the people who stayed on in Zvornik the longest, remained

 5     behind the longest sometime in mid-July were collected together in front

 6     of the department store, they told me that, I didn't see that with my own

 7     eyes so I can't say that this is 100 per cent correct, I'm just telling

 8     you what I heard so don't take me to task there.  They told me they had

 9     been gathered together in front of the department store, made to get on

10     to buses, and then they were driven off.

11        Q.   Some of them said they said they wanted to be taken to Serbia and

12     then from then on to foreign countries?

13        A.   I don't want to deny that.  Maybe some people did request that.

14     I know that the group who told me about it, I don't know how many of them

15     there were in the group, they said they had been rallied up in front of

16     the department store, boarded into buses and then driven off.  Now,

17     whether they bequested their property to the Serb municipalities, I'm not

18     challenging what you're saying but that's what this last group of people

19     told me.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down and make

21     pauses between question and answer, thank you.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, slow down, please, and make a pause

23     between question and answer and the same goes for the witness.  Thank you

24     very much.  Please proceed.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 5376

 1        Q.   Since I have only a few minutes left, I am trying to squeeze in

 2     at least two more questions and obtain answers for these questions, but

 3     I'll slow down.

 4             Were there cases, according to your knowledge, that Serbs who had

 5     already left Tuzla, Kalesija, Zivinice, Kladanj and other places, not to

 6     mention all of them, that had already been harmed, harassed or beaten,

 7     that there had been killings there as well and so on and so forth, were

 8     there cases that these Serbs behaved revengefully towards the Muslim

 9     population that they found in Zvornik when they arrived there?

10        A.   According to my information and according to what I learned from

11     other people, I did not see these things.  I wasn't there but I only

12     heard about them, there were cases of people having lost somebody, but

13     this was on a much lesser scale than the crimes that were committed by

14     what you yourself called gangs of thugs.

15        Q.   But they were the cases that I described as well, weren't there?

16        A.   Yes, but not to such a large scale.

17        Q.   The gangs were the biggest problem for everybody in Zvornik but

18     they were the biggest problem for Muslims, would I be right in saying

19     that?

20        A.   If I may take up a bit more of your time, I would like to say

21     that we are all responsible for the situation that we are in charge of.

22     Those people who had taken over the power were responsible for peace and

23     order.  There is no war without victims.  We are all aware of that.  But

24     there is one more thing here.  If I tried to do something to the best of

25     my abilities and then I do nothing but harm to all of those around me,

Page 5377

 1     then I am responsible.  That's what power and authorities are for.

 2             You knew most of these people as you say from Croatia and they

 3     had done the same thing so it's impossible that these things could not

 4     have been prevented and it is impossible that these people who brought

 5     these people in were not aware of whom they were bringing in.  I am not

 6     saying that you could be responsible for all of them, and that you could

 7     control all of them but I am comparing this to a state.  A state is

 8     responsible for peace and order in the state and along the same lines,

 9     the municipal power in Zvornik was supposed to keep peace and order in

10     Zvornik which they didn't do.  They did not honour what they were

11     supposed to do.  The gangs had been invited and did whatever they wanted

12     to do.

13        Q.   Yes, the situation was chaotic.  I stated that in other places,

14     the Prosecutor showed it on some video clips but I won't go through that

15     at the moment.  I'm going to show you another typical example of a group

16     retaliation, you mentioned the killing of (redacted) didn't you?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   He was killed when you were detained or -- before your eyes

19     almost?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And did you also hear a story about him having been killed by

22     some locals because he had been an Ustasha.  In 1945, he came with his

23     Ustasha unit to the property in Trsic village and on that occasion,

24     Vojo Camic and Nikola Zekic were killed.  After the war, this

25     (redacted) was not brought to justice.  According to my information,

Page 5378

 1     some people recognised him, people from Zvornik and the environs, they

 2     remembered the event from the Second World War and that's why he was

 3     killed.  First he was beaten and died of his wounds.  Did you hear

 4     anything about that?  Anything to that effect?

 5        A.   No, I never heard this before.  I hear this from you the first

 6     time.  He was accused of having been an Ustasha, that his ear was

 7     tattooed or branded, I don't know whether he was branded or tattooed.

 8     Actually, that this was under his left armpit.  They wanted to take his

 9     clothes off to see whether that was true but he wouldn't let them do

10     that.

11             As far as I could see he was taken out and Zoks was the one who

12     had beaten him the most.  Although I was preoccupied with my own

13     troubles, I would say that it seems to me that he even kicked him in the

14     corner of the room and then took him out.

15             What happened outside, we heard screams and shouts, but we don't

16     know what happened.

17             In addition to that group that comprised Cele, Pufta, as well as

18     Zoks, there was another group, Niski came.  I could not see outside, I

19     don't know what was happening outside.  We only heard kicks and thuds and

20     then he crawled into the room and I only know that he said, "I am dying

21     here, children.  Pray for me."

22        Q.   Are you aware of the -- of this village Trsic around Zvornik?

23        A.   No, I was not there.  I know that it exists.

24        Q.   You don't know about the Popovic property where Vojo Camic and

25     Nikola Zekic were killed?

Page 5379

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Then I won't insist on that.  This is the information that I

 3     received from Zvornik.

 4        A.   I can't confirm that information because I never heard this

 5     before.

 6        Q.   I'm not insisting.  I appreciate that you maybe don't know

 7     anything about that.  I understand --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, tell me the

 9     time.  I think you just about have used up your time, Mr. Seselj.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may put just one more question

11     while this is being checked.  I think I have another minute or two.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, ask your last question.

13     You've used up three hours.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   When you were arrested and taken to prison, and you spent more

16     than a few months there, you were arrested by a Muslim who belonged to a

17     Serb military formation; isn't that correct?

18        A.   He belonged to the reserve police forces.

19        Q.   Together with the Serbs?

20        A.   Yes, together with them, they kept guard.

21        Q.   And he was a Muslim?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I just wanted you to confirm this because obviously there were

24     Muslims in the Serb formations as well.  Thank you.

25        A.   Can I just provide a comment to this?  At the time before the

Page 5380

 1     conflict broke out in Zvornik, there were joint guards preventing gangs

 2     from storming into town.  There was still no conflicts happening and I

 3     suppose that was the reason why they were joint guards.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a redirect?

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, I don't.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I just have one short

 7     question for you.

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to the looting, indeed in

10     the indictment, there is a mention made of looting including in Zvornik.

11     I listened to you carefully.  You explained that you would go into Muslim

12     houses and into Serb houses and I also seem to understand you gave an

13     example that there was a factory out of which all of the equipment had

14     been removed and had been loaded on to a truck.  Did I misunderstand you?

15        A.   It was a crafts shop in Hrid near to the main road.  That person

16     was a tinsmith, and I believe that he had patented making grills or

17     barbecues for something that was considered a national specialty in the

18     former Yugoslavia, cevapcici and hamburgers.  We loaded all those grills

19     with -- and we put some roof tiles over those grills and even some

20     machinery.  I believe that we loaded those on Ljubisa's truck.  He was

21     from Loznicka Polje.  I'm not sure that it was his truck but I believe

22     so.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And just a follow-up question.

24     When all this equipment would be loaded on to the trucks, were there JNA

25     military in the streets or were there only, say, Arkan's men or other

Page 5381

 1     people there?  Because I was listening carefully to what you say about

 2     the takeover the Zvornik, you mentioned tanks.  So one could infer from

 3     that that there was a military operation going on.  Once the town was

 4     taken, did the JNA people go?  What can you say about this?

 5        A.   We did see the troops in town but in small numbers.  But a

 6     majority of the mobilised soldiers were either on the lines or in the

 7     barracks and one could see those formations in town and from the moment

 8     we started loading things in town at the beginning of June or the end of

 9     May when Toro, Zoks, and the others had taken over, they were the only

10     ones who went with us.  The troops would come by or the police would come

11     by to take control.  They had a paper that they would open.  The police

12     would then read the paper and then they would move on.  I suppose they

13     had the authority to do all that and we did see the regular police around

14     town but not on every corner.  But I wouldn't say that there was a unit

15     billeted in town or deployed in town.  We didn't see them.  There was the

16     police and these military formations which are not regular army.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are therefore telling me

18     that there was a regular army in town but they were not many people or

19     that the army people were not numerous.  But did you see soldiers

20     around -- or military police around in town, you can identify them

21     because they've got this white belt showing that they are military police

22     members.  Did you see any MPs around?

23        A.   We saw all of them on the street but not in large numbers.  It

24     didn't look like a unit had been brought town.  There were patrols,

25     military, the police patrols and there are always people around the old

Page 5382

 1     bridge in Zvornik, you could see a lot of people wearing uniforms there.

 2     But those were very colourful uniforms, some wore camouflage uniforms,

 3     some had olive drab uniforms, some had insignia, the others didn't.  So

 4     it was very difficult to tell who they were.  There were all sorts of

 5     troops around the town but not in large numbers.  You could not see large

 6     groups standing in one place.  The most you could see were some five to

 7     ten standing around the bridge, that was the most that we could see.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One very last question.  When

 9     you would load things on to the trucks, and we know that you had a

10     damaged arm so you couldn't load up everything, could you not have

11     escaped?  Because everybody was busy putting things, equipment into the

12     trucks or counting the bank notes, wasn't it possible for you to flee?

13        A.   I was scared, first of all.  Second of all, luckily enough, I had

14     grown up in town, I was not familiar with the ground around the town.  I

15     did try to escape towards Tuzla which fell through and I hoped that if I

16     did my job properly, that my life would be saved.  That was my hope.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you have now finished

18     your testimony.  On behalf of my colleagues and myself, we thank you for

19     coming to testify.  We know that you suffered.  You described the blows

20     you took and rest assured that you have everybody's sympathy including

21     the sympathy of the accused who also expressed his own views regarding

22     your ordeal.  So all we can do is encourage you to continue in your

23     current occupation and wish you a safe return home.  Before you leave the

24     courtroom, we'll have to lower the blinds.  We still have a few minutes

25     so we can do that and you'll have time to leave the courtroom.

Page 5383

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, sir?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, do.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope that you as a Trial Chamber,

 4     together with all the people in the world will make sure that nobody, not

 5     even my worst enemy ever experiences what I went through during the war.

 6     Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please leave

 8     the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session.

11     Closed session, Mr. Registrar.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5384











11 Pages 5384-5386 redacted. Private session.















Page 5387

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, in open session, the

25     hearing stands adjourned.  We shall reconvene tomorrow at 8.30.  Thank

Page 5388

 1     you.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 3                           1.20 p.m. to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th of

 4                           March, 2008 at 8.30 a.m.