Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5495

 1                           Tuesday, 1 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Registrar, could you

 7     please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Vojislav Seselj.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

12             So this is Tuesday, and I welcome the OTP, the representative of

13     the OTP, as well as the witness, Mr. Seselj, and everyone helping us.

14             We're in Courtroom II today.  Normally, we're in Courtroom I or

15     III, but these courtrooms were unavailable, notably Courtroom III, which

16     is why we were sent to Courtroom II.  However, this will only be

17     temporary.

18             Today, we shall be hearing the witness in the courtroom today.

19     But before this, I would like to move to private session quickly.

20             But before this, Mr. Seselj, on an administrative matter, I

21     believe you had something to say.

22             You have the floor.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have three

24     administrative issues to raise, but they'll be brief.

25             I have to inform you, firstly, that the Prosecution, along with

Page 5496

 1     this registrar of documents which it intends to use during the

 2     examination of this witness, once again provided me with a list

 3     exclusively in English, and it's a ten-page documents.  I think you must

 4     instruct the Prosecution never to repeat that again and to issue

 5     instructions that I be provided with a copy in Serbian forthwith.  There

 6     are a number of descriptions here of various documents, and you can see

 7     that it is a long document.  That's the first point.

 8             Secondly, over the weekend I looked through the documents to do

 9     with the coming witness, VS-051, who is scheduled to appear next week,

10     and I found that I was lacking certain materials from his transcript, the

11     transcript of his testimony and another trial.  The Prosecutor knows full

12     well what the trial is.  I don't want to mention the name of the trial,

13     not to disclose the witness's identity, but anyway and I need his

14     testimony on the 16th of February and perhaps earlier on if it began on

15     the 15th too, as well as his testimony of the 22nd of February from 1805

16     hours in the afternoon, and if it went on to the next day.

17             I was provided by them by about 240 pages of transcript, and

18     reading through it, I found out that I was missing some parts.  So I

19     demand that I be supplied with that as soon as possible, because without

20     it, I won't be able to cross-examine the witness next week.  So they have

21     to provide me with that by Friday.

22             And the third point is this:  To avoid writing a written

23     submission, I don't want to burden you, 15 minutes before I entered court

24     the representative of the Registrar provided me with a public document.

25     It was the request by the Stanisic Defence for access to confidential

Page 5497

 1     testimony and exhibits in the Seselj rule [as interpreted] on the basis

 2     of Rule 75 (G) and (I).  Now, as I am expected to present my views and to

 3     speed up the whole process and not have to write a written submission, I

 4     telling you now, here and now that I agree that the Stanisic Defence be

 5     given access to all confidential testimony and documents in the trial

 6     against me, and I consider that it is enough for this to be on the record

 7     of today's proceedings, that I don't need to submit this in writing as

 8     well.

 9             So that's all I had.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So let's take

11     them -- let's take these three points in the reverse order.  We'll start

12     with the last one, the Stanisic submission.

13             We have taken due note of your agreement, and the Trial Chamber

14     will make a decision very quickly on this.

15             Now, to the second point, for Witness VS-051, obviously you're

16     missing a few documents, so I would like the Prosecution to check this.

17             Yes, Mrs. Biersay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Simply to say, Your Honour --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  We'll certainly look into the matter.  I believe

21     that we have attempted to make all the disclosures that we have

22     available, but I will not be leading that witness, and so I will confer

23     with the attorney who will be.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             Regarding the document written in English, according to

Page 5498

 1     Mr. Seselj, I don't know which document it is.  It seems to be -- could

 2     you help us?  Which document is it, Mrs. Biersay, please?

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe the document to which Mr. Seselj is

 4     referring is the index to the court binder that gives a general

 5     description of the 65 ter numbers of the documents in the binder, as well

 6     as the description and ERN numbers.

 7             Certainly, I think given the fast turnaround that we had with the

 8     binder, we didn't have the resources to direct to provide that index in

 9     English -- in B/C/S, and so we had to make a judgement call in getting it

10     to Mr. Seselj as soon as possible of delaying it in order to provide the

11     index in B/C/S, and the decision was made to get it to him as soon as we

12     could in English.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please, in the

14     future, try to ensure that Mr. Seselj obtains this document, this index,

15     in his own language.  It's not very complicated, obviously, to translate.

16     The there are a number of photographs.  Photographs in Serbian is

17     probably very simple to translate.  There are two transcripts of phone

18     conversations, obviously.  It should only take a few minutes to

19     translate.

20             Very well.  Let me now ask for a private session for a few

21     minutes.

22             Mr. Seselj first, you wanted to add something or to respond to

23     Mrs. Biersay maybe?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a small correction with

25     respect to Witness VS-051.  I'm expecting to be disclosed in all the

Page 5499

 1     documents.  I assume that they'll be doing that by Friday.  But I'm

 2     talking about the transcript of the testimony of that particular witness

 3     in another trial, in other proceedings.  And since he's only testified in

 4     one other trial, then the Prosecutor knows which trial it was.  I don't

 5     have to mention the name of the trial.  So the transcript is not

 6     complete.  The first part and last part are missing, and in fact I

 7     specified, when I first took the floor, what was missing, what portions

 8     were missing.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move to

10     private session, but for another topic.

11             Mrs. Registrar, please.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

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Page 5500











11 Pages 5500-5501 redacted. Private session.















Page 5502

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Mrs. Biersay, you have the floor.

17                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you tell the members of the Trial Chamber

19     where you were born and where you were raised?

20        A.   Your Honours, I was born in Belgrade, and I was raised in

21     Belgrade, Serbia.

22        Q.   What level of education did you complete?

23        A.   I completed the secondary architectural school, and then I went

24     to the machine engineering school; and I was trained as a building

25     construction technician and tinsmith.  And I became employed with the JNA

Page 5503

 1     as a civilian.  And I -- in our country, there was what was called

 2     "streamed education" that was ongoing.  That was the system.  So the

 3     secondary school of architecture, there were a number of branches.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] I have an objection to make.  The

 5     microphone doesn't seem to be working, the witness's microphone, and I

 6     can't hear him properly.  My microphone is in order.  It's the witness's

 7     that isn't working properly.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, for how long did you work as a civilian with the

10     JNA?

11        A.   About four years and a few months.

12        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to the period of time when

13     the JNA started mobilising reservists to Croatia in 1991.

14             At some point, Mr. Witness, did you decide to become a volunteer?

15        A.   Yes, that's right, I decided to become a volunteer in 1991.

16        Q.   And for which organisation did you decide to join as a volunteer?

17        A.   I decided to join the Serbian Chetnik movement or, rather, the

18     Serbian Radical Party, Vojislav Seselj's party.

19        Q.   And why did you decide to join that party?

20        A.   Because my family nurtures monarchist traditions, so that seemed

21     to me to be most suitable.  As far as I'm concerned, I didn't like

22     communism so it suited me, and at that time it was propagated that the

23     Chetnik Party -- well, that particular party.  I didn't know at the time

24     they were not actually for the monarchy, but I wasn't politically

25     literate at the time so I didn't really know all these things.

Page 5504

 1        Q.   Is it fair to say that you were joining this party because you

 2     thought it represented your monarchist ideas?

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Objection.  That question is

 4     absolutely impermissible.  The Prosecutor is asking whether it is true

 5     and correct that you joined the party because you believed that it

 6     represented monarchist ideals and ideas.  The Prosecutor must not put

 7     questions like that.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  I

 9     don't understand your objection.

10             Mrs. Biersay is asking the witness why he joined the Serbian

11     Chetnik Party.  She's asking for the reasons behind this.  This is at

12     line 14 -- page 14, line 9.  And he answers:

13             "Because my family had a monarchist tradition," which is

14     interesting.  When we'd like to know why someone decides to volunteer and

15     joins the Chetnik Party.  And that's the reason.

16             It's useful to know why this person volunteered, so I'll ask the

17     question, a follow-up question.

18             Witness, please, according to what you said, it seems that you

19     volunteered because your family was monarchist.  It means obviously your

20     family wanted to have a king to lead Serbia.  Was this the whole idea

21     behind your joining?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, that's right.  My

23     family, before the war, before World War II, that is, were always in

24     favour of the king.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 5505

 1             When you joined this political party or this movement, this

 2     political movement, did you have any friends who had the same ideas and

 3     who joined the movement also because they were monarchists?

 4        A.   Well, in -- well, in 99 per cent of the volunteers, had the same

 5     ideas I did.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 99 per cent of the volunteers

 7     who joined the Chetnik movement were monarchists; is that it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100 per cent.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Almost saying 100 per cent,

10     actually.  Very well.

11             Mrs. Biersay, please continue.

12             MS. BIERSAY:

13        Q.   Where did you go in order to join the Serbian Chetnik movement?

14        A.   I went to the Serbian Radical Party, which was on Ohridska

15     Street, because I had information that that's where one could join the

16     volunteers.  The media advertised this.  They said, "You should go

17     through Seselj," and that the Chetniks were going to the front to assist

18     the people on the battlefield.  So I joined them, that's where I went.

19             I asked around, asked my friends, and they said "That's the

20     place -- that's the best place to go, that's the best place for you,

21     because all the Chetniks are there."

22        Q.   Approximately when did you go to this office?

23        A.   That was in 1991, I think in July.

24        Q.   When you went to the office, who did you meet there?

25        A.   When I went to the office, I was received there by Zoran Rankic.

Page 5506

 1     He was the deputy chief of the War Staff there, and he was wearing a

 2     military uniform, all spick and span.  I thought he was some sort of

 3     general, but later on I came to realise that he wasn't.  And he received

 4     me, he wrote my name down, and said that I was automatically a member of

 5     the Serbian Radical Party, having come as a volunteer, to apply as a

 6     volunteer.

 7             I was interested in other matters, and I asked him how I was

 8     going to justify the fact that I was off work, and he said, "There's no

 9     problem there.  We're going to issue you with a certificate, so that will

10     settle that as far as your job is concerned."  And he said -- well, he

11     wrote my name in as a member, and he said he'd call me up on the phone

12     when enough volunteers had rallied together to go to Western Slavonia,

13     that he would inform me when that would be, where, what day and what

14     time.

15        Q.   Let's discuss that certificate, that document that Mr. Rankic

16     mentioned to you that would help you with your job.  What exactly was

17     that document?

18        A.   It was a certificate which Ljubisa Petkovic usually wrote out if

19     the volunteers needed it.  We would go to ask for a certificate to let us

20     off work, to justify our absence from work.  And, for example, the

21     volunteers didn't have to pay for their electricity.  You would take your

22     certificate saying you're a volunteer to the electrical distribution

23     network and you wouldn't have to pay.  And when you would have

24     certificates like that, too, when you did your military service of any

25     kind, they would write this down in your military booklet and then this

Page 5507

 1     would give you extra years of service.  Every year you served would be

 2     counted as two years.

 3        Q.   What other types of professions received that double counting of

 4     military service that you just described?

 5        A.   Well, the army, the JNA, and the police.

 6        Q.   So just so that I'm clear, people in the police and in the army

 7     would receive credit for double the time that they actually served in the

 8     military?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And if you were an SRS volunteer, a Serbian Chetnik Movement

11     volunteer, you would also get the same benefit; is that correct?

12        A.   That is correct, yes.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  The question is

14     complicated, Witness.  This is the first time that we've been hearing

15     about this, which is why I'm quite interested by it.

16             We have just been told that a volunteer did not pay his

17     electricity bill, and secondly, that all the time spent in the army was

18     going to count double, probably for his pension and retirement.  This is

19     what you just said; right?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those are my words.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22             Now, these benefits, which are quite important, according to you,

23     were they granted because you were a volunteer or because you were a

24     member of the Chetnik movement?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the benefits and credits were

Page 5508

 1     authorised by the top people in the state, because Vojislav Seselj

 2     collaborated very closely with the top authorities in the states, so we

 3     enjoyed all the benefits that the officers in the army benefitted from.

 4     And this was decided at the very top leadership.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying it was the state

 6     that granted these benefits, but you're drawing the conclusion that it is

 7     because Mr. Seselj was collaborating with state authorities?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

11             In the Serbian armies, these volunteers, were they people who

12     were under the law, in general?  They were under the law, but I would

13     like to know one thing.  I'd like to know whether all the other

14     volunteers were granted the same benefits or only the volunteers who were

15     organised by the Serbian Radical Party.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was only the

17     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party that enjoyed those benefits.

18     However, other volunteers most probably did, too, because this was

19     regulated by law.  That's 100 per cent correct.  And I'm sure they

20     enjoyed those benefits and credits too.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe it was a problem with

22     translation --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

24     or that they could enjoy those rights, perhaps.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe there's a little problem

Page 5509

 1     with translation, because it seems that there's a contradiction in your

 2     answer.

 3             You were saying earlier that only the volunteers from the Serbian

 4     Radical Party were granted these benefits, and then later on you're

 5     saying that maybe the other volunteers too, so could you be more

 6     specific, as far as you're concerned, as far as you know?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I added and said that other

 8     volunteers probably didn't have the proper information telling them that

 9     they could avail themselves of those benefits.  They didn't know about

10     it.

11             We did have information from the chief of the War Staff,

12     Ljubisa Petkovic, that we were entitled to those benefits.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if we understood you well,

14     as far as you're concerned, you are telling us that this possibility of

15     being granted benefits was told to you, which is why you took advantage

16     of it, as well as all your other friends from the Serbian Radical Party.

17     But you're saying for other volunteers coming from other parties, if they

18     hadn't gotten the information, they might not have benefitted from all

19     this?  Is this what you wanted to say?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, that's what I

21     wanted to say.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood.

23     Thank you.

24             Mrs. Biersay, you have the floor.

25             MS. BIERSAY:

Page 5510

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, these certificates that you're discussing, where

 2     they issued by the SRS or were they issued by another state organisation?

 3        A.   Those certificates were issued by the War Staff of the Serbian

 4     Radical Party.

 5        Q.   In addition to the benefits that you just described, did you have

 6     any discussions with anyone at the SRS, the Serbian Chetnik Movement,

 7     about health insurance?

 8        A.   I did talk to Zoran Rankic and Ljubisa Petkovic.  I did discuss

 9     that, so that could be regulated as well.  In principle, if the volunteer

10     needed anything, they would go to the War Staff and be issued a

11     certificate, and this would usually be issued by Ljubisa Petkovic.  They

12     would be issued a certificate for whatever he needed, whether for his

13     electricity bills, or his work post, the employment bureau, or whatever,

14     for his social insurance, et cetera.

15        Q.   During your discussion, when you went to register with the SRS,

16     during your discussion with Mr. Rankic, did he describe what role

17     Mr. Seselj played in the organisation?

18        A.   He said that he was the chief there, that he was the main boss,

19     that he was the supreme commander.  And he introduced himself to me as

20     the deputy of the War Staff, and he said that he was there to register

21     the volunteers who applied and to inform them about their departure for

22     the front, for the frontline, the war theatre.  And he said that the

23     party would take all necessary measures to protect its volunteers.

24        Q.   What was your understanding about the relationship between the

25     Serbian Chetnik Movement and the SRS?

Page 5511

 1        A.   I understood it to be a serious organisation, which is why I

 2     applied.  I thought that in time, as the JNA was down on its knees, the

 3     Serbian Chetnik Movement would take over control in Serbia.

 4        Q.   And did anyone explain to you in what way the Serbian Chetnik

 5     Movement was connected to the SRS?

 6        A.   In the beginning, no one did.  I wasn't informed as to the manner

 7     in which it was connected.  Later on, I came to understand that it was

 8     one section.  It was rumoured among the people that they couldn't

 9     register the Serbian Chetnik Movement, so they registered the Serbian

10     Radical Party instead.

11        Q.   Why were they -- why could they not register the Serbian Chetnik

12     Movement, as far as you know?

13        A.   I don't know that, but that's what people said to attract people,

14     to get them to come in and volunteer, in fact to misuse them.

15        Q.   After you registered as a volunteer at the SRS office in

16     Belgrade, did you in fact get a call from Mr. Rankic later about

17     deployment to the front?

18        A.   Yes.  After about a month or two, Rankic called me up, and he

19     said that there would be buses leaving.  They were parked in the 27th of

20     March Street and that they would be leaving at 8.00 or 9.00 in the

21     morning.  I'm not sure about the time anymore.

22        Q.   How much time passed between the time he called you and the time

23     these buses were supposed to leave?

24        A.   Well, about four or five days, more or less.  I can't be precise

25     about it.

Page 5512

 1        Q.   And where -- what was your understanding about where you were

 2     going to be deployed?

 3        A.   I had already been told that we were going to Western Slavonia.

 4        Q.   And could you describe the circumstances when you went to the

 5     area to which Mr. Rankic had directed you?

 6        A.   We set out in the buses --

 7        Q.   If I could stop you for one minute, Mr. Witness.

 8             Could you describe for the Trial Chamber the situation where the

 9     buses were?  At what address did you go to meet the buses?

10        A.   I went to the 27 Marta, the 27th of March Street in Belgrade,

11     near the botanical gardens.  There was a clearing where the buses stood.

12     We were sitting in a restaurant across the road, waiting for Rankic and

13     the commander that the Serbian Radical Party had designated to come

14     along.  Some of the volunteers were already drunk.  When Radovan Novacic

15     came, Rankic told us he was our commander.  We boarded the buses.

16     Radovan Novacic didn't want to take those who were drunk, he didn't want

17     to take them with him, and there was a small conflict with Zoran Rankic

18     because Rankic wanted to take them, but Radovan Novacic said, "Either

19     those who are drunk will leave or I will leave," so that those who were

20     drunk did not go.  But we did go, and Radovan went with us.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, if I could stop you for one minute.  How many

22     volunteers ended up boarding the buses to leave to Western Slavonia?

23        A.   About 27 in all.  I can't say whether there were 25 or 27, but

24     the first group was rather small.  I mean, the bus wasn't full.

25        Q.   And did Mr. Rankic go on the buses with the volunteers?

Page 5513

 1        A.   No, he went back to the War Staff.

 2        Q.   In addition to rejecting volunteers because they were drunk, did

 3     Mr. Novacic reject volunteers based on what they were saying?

 4        A.   Yes, that did happen.  The ones who were drunk said they were

 5     going there to kill, to slaughter, to gouge people's eyes out, and that's

 6     why he didn't want to take them.  And when we got on the buses, he said,

 7     "If anyone is going there in order to slaughter people, he can leave

 8     right now."

 9        Q.   Do you know the ethnicity of Mr. Novacic?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   And what is he?

12        A.   He is half Croat, half Serb.

13        Q.   The number of volunteers that you described for the Trial

14     Chamber, were they all SRS volunteers?

15        A.   Yes, they were all volunteers who had reported to the Serbian

16     Radical Party and applied to go to the frontline.

17        Q.   Could you describe for the Trial Chamber what route the bus took

18     to get to Western Slavonia?

19        A.   We couldn't go through Croatia, so we went through Bosnia.  We

20     spent the night in Bosanska Gradiska.  There was a prison there and the

21     JNA barracks --

22        Q.   Just one moment, Mr. Witness.  Before we discuss where you

23     stopped, I just wanted generally for you to describe the route that you

24     took to get to Western Slavonia.

25        A.   At the time, there were lots of people check-points, since there

Page 5514

 1     was a state of war, so we went through Bosnian territory because that

 2     area had not yet been affected by the war.  We went via Doboj.  The

 3     police greeted us along the way because they had been informed we would

 4     be coming through, so that we didn't have any problems.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Madam Registrar, if we could see 65 ter

 6     number 7187, please.

 7             And while we're calling it up, 65 ter number 7187 is a map with

 8     the northern-marked area being Vocin, to the south Banja Luka, and Sid to

 9     the east.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, where was the first stop that you made on your way

11     to Western Slavonia?

12        A.   Our first stop was Bosanska Gradiska.  We stayed in the prison

13     there, and there was a JNA barracks there.

14        Q.   When you got to Bosanska Gradiska, did anyone from that area

15     greet the bus of volunteers?

16        A.   Yes, Goran Hadzic was there, so was Dzakula, and some other

17     representatives of the government of Western Slovenia.  They greeted us

18     and they put us in the barracks to stay with the army.  The army had

19     taken refuge there temporarily because it was a war area.

20        Q.   How long did you stay at the barracks in that area?

21        A.   Just one night, we just spent one night there.

22        Q.   What happened the next day?

23        A.   In the following days, the army from Vocin arrived by bus.  They

24     came from Western Slavonia with a driver in a camouflage uniform, and

25     they took us to Vocin.

Page 5515

 1        Q.   This driver, was he armed or unarmed?

 2        A.   There were two of them, in fact, in camouflage uniforms.  The

 3     driver was armed with a pistol, and the other driver, also wearing a

 4     camouflage uniform, was also armed.  He had an automatic rifle.  They

 5     followed us, Hadzic and Dzakula, I mean.  Dzakula was the president of

 6     the municipality at the time.  They followed us in a car:  We, the

 7     volunteers, were taken there by bus.

 8        Q.   The bus that you boarded in Bosanska Gradiska, was that the same

 9     bus that you had boarded in Belgrade?

10        A.   No, that was another bus.

11        Q.   And from Bosanska Gradiska, where did you go next?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Where did you go next, where?

14        A.   We arrived in Vocin.  There, we had lunch.  And later on, they

15     took us to a place called "Lager", where there was a reconnaissance

16     sector overlooking Sokolac.

17        Q.   Is that area referred to as the Papuk area or is it referred to

18     by something else?

19        A.   Yes, yes, it is the area of Mount Papuk.  That's what it's

20     called.

21        Q.   And when -- if someone referred to the area of Podravska Slatina,

22     what area would they be talking about?

23        A.   That is a broader area, Podravska Slatina.  It's lower down.

24     That's Podravska Slatina.

25        Q.   When you arrived at the camp that you just described, were you

Page 5516

 1     given any weapons or uniforms?

 2        A.   We arrived in the camp at around 5.00, and at about 9.00 in the

 3     evening the army brought weapons and uniforms by truck.  These were old

 4     uniforms with the five-pointed star.

 5        Q.   And how did you feel about wearing uniforms with the five-pointed

 6     star?

 7        A.   Well, I couldn't wear civilian clothes, so I had to put it on.

 8        Q.   Were the uniforms with the five-pointed star, were they

 9     camouflaged or non-camouflaged?

10        A.   No, they were olive grey, drab, these ordinary old uniforms, and

11     they were not intended for fighting, but for parades, because you

12     couldn't even crouch down in them properly.

13        Q.   And could you describe to the Trial Chamber what type of weapons

14     you were given?

15        A.   We were given new weapons.  They were in crates which had not

16     been unpacked.  And they also brought us a barrel of oil so that we could

17     take the grease off the weapons, so that we stayed up late into the night

18     cleaning the weapons.  And we also showed each other how to use the

19     weapons, because many volunteers didn't know how to put the weapons

20     together.  So that Radovan had the first part of the training with the

21     group about using the weapons, putting them together and taking them

22     apart again.

23        Q.   When you say "Radovan," who do you mean?

24        A.   I'm referring to Radovan Novacic.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd now like to discuss with you the command

Page 5517

 1     structure for the area in which you were in Western Slavonia.  Could you

 2     describe for the Trial Chamber the command that Radovan Novacic had?

 3        A.   Radovan Novacic was subordinate to Jovan Trbojevic, who was a

 4     lieutenant colonel of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.  He could not

 5     make a decisions, unless it was an emergency, without Jovan Trbojevic.

 6        Q.   Did Radovan Novacic have a title?

 7        A.   To the best of my knowledge, he was a reserve captain, but he was

 8     the commander of the Serbian volunteers.

 9        Q.   Was he the commander of all the SRS volunteers in the Papuk area

10     or only part of the Papuk area?

11        A.   The first authorisation he got was to command all the volunteers

12     in all of Western Slavonia, not just the Papuk area.

13        Q.   Now, you said that he was subordinated to Lieutenant Colonel

14     Jovan Trbojevic; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   And who else was subordinated to Lieutenant Colonel Trbojevic?

17        A.   The police was also subordinated, as were the special units led

18     by Zoran Miscevic.  Let me explain.

19             In wartime, everyone is subordinated to the army.

20        Q.   One minute, Mr. Witness.  Who is Slavko Misic?

21        A.   I beg your pardon?  I didn't understand your question.

22        Q.   Who is Slavko Misic?  I apologise for my pronunciation.

23        A.   Slavko Misic was later sent to the Okucani area, which is also in

24     Western Slavonia, and he was issued with a certificate saying that he was

25     a commander in the area.  So there was a conflict between him and

Page 5518

 1     Radovan.  He was also a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party.

 2        Q.   Was Misic subordinated to someone else in that area, and if so,

 3     who was it?

 4        A.   Yes, he was subordinated to Narandzic, who was an active-duty

 5     military person in that area.  I can't recall his first name.

 6        Q.   And who is Zoran Miscevic?

 7        A.   He was in charge of the special units of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 8     and he was subordinated to Jovan Trbojevic.

 9        Q.   Now, you described the first -- you described the number of

10     volunteers who were on that bus with you.  Did you have an impression

11     about whether or not your bus was the first bus of volunteers in the

12     area?

13        A.   Yes, we were the first volunteers in that area.  We were the

14     first group.

15        Q.   Now, you described that there were over 20 volunteers -- SRS

16     volunteers on that trip.  Did the number of SRS volunteers in that area

17     change over time?

18        A.   Yes, it did.  The groups arrived, one after another.  Of as soon

19     as they had a full bus, they would inform Radovan, and we would go to

20     meet those volunteers and bring them to the war theatre, so that there

21     were quite a lot of volunteers.

22        Q.   How many volunteers would you estimate were there at the peak?

23        A.   Well, about 400, I would say, at the peak.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, of these 400 volunteers

25     that you mentioned, were they all organised by the Serbian Radical Party

Page 5519

 1     or were they volunteers from elsewhere, organised by other associations,

 2     organisations?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regardless of what organisation

 4     they belonged to, they all came through the Radical Party, but in the end

 5     a bus of JNA reservists arrived at Zvecevo, where Trbojevic was, and that

 6     was a group of about 50 reservists who came towards the end; and they did

 7     not come through the Serbian Radical Party.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, we'd move for the admission of the

11     map which is 65 ter number 7187.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Registrar please give

13     a number to this map.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be P312, Your Honours, marked for

15     identification.

16             Correction, Your Honours.  This would be Exhibit P312.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, Your Honours, I'd request that we

18     move to private session.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall go into private

20     session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5520











11 Pages 5520-5522 redacted. Private session.















Page 5523

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, I would like you to explain to us if

14     the volunteers, who presumably had no military experience or training,

15     were offered training while they were staying at the camp in Vocin.  I'm

16     speaking about military training, that is to say, discipline, battle

17     manoeuvring, and issues like this.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did undergo military

19     training.  At the beginning, you couldn't have a volunteer there who

20     didn't respect discipline, and the first group was trained personally by

21     Radovan Novacic.  Now, later on, they were trained by other volunteers,

22     too, who went through their primary military course training well and got

23     good marks.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On this answer, without dealing

25     in details, I would like to know one thing:  Had you done your national

Page 5524

 1     service with the JNA; yes or no?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did my military service in two

 3     parts, the JNA military service, but I didn't complete it; just the

 4     training bit.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Therefore, you had

 6     had some kind of military training.

 7             Your other colleagues, who were also volunteers, had they also

 8     done their military service with the JNA?  You were volunteers, but all

 9     of you were at least over 21?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were volunteers who hadn't

11     done their military service at all.  The criminals came, too, and people

12     came -- volunteers came in from various parts and walks of life.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now you're introducing

14     something new.  You're saying that there were criminals.  So in saying

15     this, did you mean that these were people who had been convicted in court

16     and who had then volunteered?  Is this what you were saying?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I had in mind.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So these people who

19     had been sentenced hadn't been -- hadn't done their military service

20     within the JNA?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, but there were other

22     people, too that didn't do their military service, but were not convicted

23     of anything, and that's why Radovan Novacic emphasised the fact that

24     training was important, because most of them didn't know how to handle

25     weapons, so as to avoid inflicting wounds upon oneself.

Page 5525

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Delinquents who joined as

 2     volunteers, I'd like to know, Novacic found this in Vocin, and this is

 3     when he found out there were these delinquents.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, he would discover that in Vocin.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Why is it that he

 6     didn't send them home at that point in time?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In most cases, he did send them

 8     back.  If they didn't want to listen and lacked discipline, he would

 9     mostly send them back in most cases, and then he would complain to the

10     War Staff about having sent all the riffraff to him and not having made a

11     selection.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when Novacic found out that

13     someone had a criminal record, was an offender, he would send him back

14     right away?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he would send them back

16     straight away.  If they refused to listen to discipline, because there

17     were people who were ready to listen to discipline.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the offenders

19     who obeyed were kept.

20             You were twice with the JNA, so when you were in Vocin, was the

21     discipline in Vocin identical to the discipline within the JNA or was it

22     more relaxed?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The discipline, not in Vocin but in

24     Lager, was stronger than in the JNA, and that's why Jovan Trbojevic said

25     to Radovan Novacic on one occasion that he was happy to see him there

Page 5526

 1     because his men began behaving in a more disciplined fashion up to his

 2     arrival, and we set the example in terms of discipline.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you well, as

 4     a conclusion, you seem to be saying that the volunteer's who were with

 5     you in that camp were even more disciplined than if they'd been in the

 6     JNA?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             Please resume.

10             MS. BIERSAY:

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, you just described that Novacic would complain to

12     the War Staff about the riffraff that they were sending him; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know whether or not the War Staff kept on sending

16     riffraff, despite his complaints?

17        A.   Yes, they did keep sending all sorts of people, despite his

18     complaints.

19        Q.   I'd like to move back to the topic of the relationship between

20     the SRS volunteers, through Novacic, and the TO and JNA.

21             You mentioned that Novacic was in contact with the TO and JNA.

22     Could you describe how he maintained that contact with them?

23        A.   We maintained contact through radio link, and we received that

24     from the JNA, or he would go directly to the headquarters to see

25     Jovan Trbojevic in Zvecevo to discuss some matters that needed to be

Page 5527

 1     discussed regarding certain actions or weapons or things of that kind.

 2        Q.   How was coordination done in the field for military actions?

 3        A.   The plans were made by Jovan Trbojevic.  Radovan would be there

 4     to discuss the plans with him.  But what do you actually mean?  Did you

 5     mean -- well, we used Motorolas for communication purposes and radio

 6     links.

 7             I didn't understand your question.

 8        Q.   If volunteers were to be sent out into the field for military

 9     action, how would they know where to go and what to do?

10        A.   Well, they would receive orders by radio communication.  They

11     would tell us where we needed to go and what was happening on the ground.

12        Q.   And who is "they"?  You say "they would tell us."

13        A.   The army would report to the War Staff in Lager, and the Lager

14     would convey it to Radovan, and he would tell the volunteers where to go,

15     pass the information on.

16        Q.   Were there any situations where Novacic would take the initiative

17     as far as directing the SRS volunteers about where they should go or what

18     they should do?

19        A.   As there were few of us at the beginning, he would make

20     intervention platoons in order to be able to assist all the locals and

21     the population generally in Western Slavonia in different areas, so that

22     when he would receive information that something was happening somewhere,

23     that's what he could do, but only in extreme situations; for example,

24     when the volunteers hit an ambush, JNA, then the intervention platoon

25     would go and pull them out.  Then he would take the initiative.  He

Page 5528

 1     wouldn't wait for orders from Jovan Trbojevic or authorisation from him.

 2        Q.   Who provided the food for the SRS volunteers?

 3        A.   The army did, the army provided food.

 4        Q.   Who provided fuel for the needs of the SRS volunteers?

 5        A.   Once again, the army, the Yugoslav People's Army.

 6        Q.   Who paid the salaries of the SRS volunteers?

 7        A.   The army, the JNA again.

 8        Q.   With respect to salaries, were those salaries paid in the field

 9     or somewhere else?

10        A.   At the beginning, it was in the field, but later on it was paid

11     out at the 4th of July barracks in Belgrade.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the questions of the

13     Prosecutor lead me to asking another question which might make things

14     clearer.

15             You have just told us that the volunteers were dressed by the

16     JNA, armed by the JNA, that they executed the orders of the JNA, that

17     they were paid by the JNA.  So according to you, what is the difference,

18     on the field, between a JNA soldier and a soldier belonging to your unit?

19     Is there a difference between the two or not?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a difference, yes.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In ideology, ideology.  We thought

23     differently than -- to them.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What were you thinking?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were in favour of the king and

Page 5529

 1     the homeland, and they were communists.  And we used them, thinking that

 2     once we returned to Serbia, we would take over command over the JNA,

 3     because already at that time it was on its knees, it was completely

 4     degraded.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you well,

 6     because I believe that this is very important, you were saying that the

 7     difference between you and the JNA is that they were communist, whereas

 8     you were monarchists?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if I understood you right,

11     your objective was, and I'm using your words, because the JNA was on its

12     knees, you were going to be able, through this, to take power; is that

13     it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But taking power, for you did

16     that mean to set up a king?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And all your friends had the

19     same feeling?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, most of them, yes.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Mrs. Biersay.

23             MS. BIERSAY:

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, you described for the Trial Chamber Novacic

25     contacting the SRS War Staff in Belgrade to complain about the quality of

Page 5530

 1     the volunteers they were sending.  Could you describe for us what kinds

 2     of contacts Novacic had with the SRS or Staff in general?

 3        A.   Well, usually he would have telephone communication to tell him

 4     who to contact from the war staff, various needs and requirements, or

 5     when he went to Belgrade he would report personally to Seselj in his

 6     office.

 7        Q.   Let's talk first about those telephone contacts.  How often would

 8     Novacic contact the SRS War Staff in Belgrade by phone?

 9        A.   Usually, every two or three days, he would call up from

10     Banja Luka or Bosanska Gradiska.

11        Q.   Why did he call from those two places and not from where you were

12     based?

13        A.   Because the telephone lines weren't working at the time in

14     Western Slavonia, they weren't operational.

15        Q.   Were there any SRS offices in the two places that you just

16     described, either Banja Luka or Bosanska Gradiska?

17        A.   Yes, offices did exist, and we would call from the Red Cross,

18     too, from their offices.

19        Q.   Where was the SRS office from which you would call?

20        A.   In Bosanska Gradiska, that's where the office was.

21        Q.   What type of information would Novacic convey to the SRS War

22     Staff in Belgrade?

23        A.   Well, usually he would recount what was happening on the ground

24     and what was the problems were on the ground, so that they could help him

25     solve the problems.  At the beginning, there were problems with uniforms.

Page 5531

 1     We asked for more uniforms and additional weapons, because the number of

 2     volunteers had increased.

 3        Q.   What was your -- what was your perception of Novacic's duty to

 4     call the SRS War Staff?  Was it something he chose to do or something

 5     that he had to do?

 6        A.   Well, as far as I understood, it was something he had to do,

 7     because he had a superior above him, the War Staff.  He was just the

 8     commander to whom the War Staff would issue instructions for him to be a

 9     commander, so he had to table reports to the War Staff, because in

10     hierarchal terms they were above him.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I'm about to move into another

12     segment.  I'm not sure if the Court would like to take the break now or

13     if I should just begin.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's almost time for the break,

15     almost 10.30, so we will have a 20-minute break.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we shall resume the

19     hearing.

20             MS. BIERSAY:

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, before the break we were discussing the contacts

22     that Novacic had with the SRS War Staff in Belgrade, and you described

23     some telephonic contacts.  When Novacic would call the SRS War Staff in

24     Belgrade, do you know with whom he would speak?

25        A.   He would speak either to Vojislav Seselj or to Ljubisa Petkovic.

Page 5532

 1        Q.   Did Novacic also have face-to-face meetings at the SRS War Staff

 2     in Belgrade?

 3        A.   With the exception of Ljubisa Petkovic and Vojislav Seselj, he

 4     didn't have meetings with anyone, to the best of my knowledge in the War

 5     Staff.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, Your Honours, may we go into private

 7     session?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

 9           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 5533











11 Pages 5533-5539 redacted. Private session.















Page 5540

 1   (redacted)

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Something I don't understand,

10     and perhaps you can enlighten us.

11             You explained to us that the JNA clothed volunteers, provided

12     weapons, et cetera.  Why was there a need to go via the Serbian Radical

13     Party, and why telephone directly to this general, whereas the military

14     chain of command was such that this type of problem could be solved?

15     That's what I don't understand.  Perhaps you can explain this to us.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially, they gave us weapons

17     because there weren't many of us and they were able to arm us.  Later on,

18     the number of volunteers grew and there were a lot of us.  The army at

19     Zvecevo did not have enough weapons for all of us, so that we had to try

20     and get weapons from Belgrade, from Serbia, for Western Slavonia.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said to us that Novacic

22     depended on the colonel in the JNA, Trbojevic.  Sorry about my

23     pronunciation.  Why was it not this colonel from the JNA who called the

24     general to solve this issue?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite honestly, I don't know.

Page 5541

 1     I assume that Trbojevic was a bad officer.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        Q.   At some point when you were in Western Slavonia, did Mr. Seselj

25     come to visit?

Page 5542

 1        A.   Yes, he did, once.

 2        Q.   Did he address the volunteers who were there?

 3        A.   He did address the volunteers, yes, just briefly.

 4        Q.   Where was this?

 5        A.   That was at Lager.

 6        Q.   And could you describe the circumstances around his arrival?

 7        A.   We didn't expect him to come, but we were told that he was on his

 8     way, and Radovan Novacic told everybody to get ready, there were about 50

 9     of us there, to get ready for the visit because Seselj would be coming,

10     but not everybody managed to come out.  He briefly said two sentences,

11     got into his car, and left for Zvecevo.

12        Q.   How did the volunteers feel about that brief meeting or address?

13        A.   Some were happy to see him, but most of them were disappointed

14     because it was such a brief visit.

15        Q.   Do you recall what Mr. Seselj told those volunteers who were

16     present?

17        A.   It was roughly this:  "Kill all the enemy, but do not loot,"

18     something along those lines.  I can't remember his exact words, but that

19     was the meaning of it.

20        Q.   Were all 50 -- the 50 volunteers that you just mentioned, were

21     they all present for this brief address from Mr. Seselj?

22        A.   No, not all of them were present.  Some hadn't managed to get

23     ready for the visit.  They were still in the barracks.

24        Q.   So how many volunteers were actually present for that address?

25        A.   Well, about 20.

Page 5543

 1        Q.   Mr. Seselj said, "Don't loot."  Had there been looting by

 2     volunteers before his arrival?

 3        A.   Not by the volunteers, there were no instances of looting.  But

 4     according to what we knew, everything had been looted when we arrived by

 5     the locals and the army, the soldiers.

 6        Q.   Based on your interactions with the volunteers, could you

 7     describe how they viewed Mr. Seselj?

 8        A.   Well, they viewed him -- most of them viewed him -- looked up to

 9     him as if he were a god.

10        Q.   Do you know why?

11        A.   Well, because they considered him to be the person who would

12     bring the king back.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, as far as you know,

14     when -- well, Mr. Seselj, when he is said to have said that you had to

15     kill all the enemy, as you said before, did that mean that they had to be

16     killed during battle, in military terms, or was there a broader meaning

17     within this phrase?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how the others

19     understood this, but I understood it as meaning that the Ustasha forces,

20     the Croatian forces, were those who were supposed to be killed.  I don't

21     know how other people understood this.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Croatian forces who were in

23     combat or also all Croats in general?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally understood it that it

25     meant the Croatian forces where the fighting was going on.  I don't know

Page 5544

 1     how other people understood it.  I suppose every man understood it in his

 2     own way.  All I can say is to speak for myself.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's go back to

25     the sentence that Mr. Seselj allegedly said in front of the volunteers.

Page 5545

 1     What was the meaning of this sentence, according to you?  Did it mean

 2     "kill them in combat, during the fight," according to rules of war, or

 3     did it have a broader sense?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood it that

 5     they should be killed in combat.  I don't know how other volunteers

 6     understood this.  That was my understanding of it.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because in wartime, discipline is

 9     paramount.  If discipline is observed, then military rules and laws can

10     be obeyed.  But if there's no discipline, then nothing is respected or

11     obeyed.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25        A.   Yes, that information did arrive, and on television they showed

Page 5546

 1     how the population of Western Slavonia were fleeing the area on tractors,

 2     small vans, trucks and so on.  And the reports said that there was

 3     general chaos in the region, and they did have information that some very

 4     strange things were going on over there.  I personally didn't know what

 5     it was all about.

 6        Q.   Let me stop you for a minute.  Let's take that bit by bit.

 7             You say that you saw on television that the population was

 8     leaving Western Slavonia.  What population, the Serb population or the

 9     non-Serb population?

10        A.   The Serbian population was leaving the territory of Western

11     Slavonia, and it was on the news, on television.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5547











11 Pages 5547-5551 redacted. Private session.















Page 5552

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Madam Registrar, if we could see 65 ter

20     number 4153.  And I'll also give you the numbers for the others that will

21     follow.  I will ask for 4170, 4177, 4191, and 4221.  And for the Court's

22     information, these are photo stills taken from video 40000278, which has

23     already been admitted into evidence.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, directing your attention to 65 ter number 4153, do

25     you see anyone that you recognise in that photograph?

Page 5553

 1        A.   This is Zoran Drazilovic, nicknamed "Cica" on the right.

 2        Q.   And what, if anything, is he wearing on his head?

 3        A.   He's wearing the "sajkaca" or peasant-style cap with a

 4     cockade on the cap and also on his lapel.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Is it possible to have the witness mark with an "X"

 6     the person he has identified?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, we'd move for the admission of 65 ter

 9     number 4153.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P315, Your Honours.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could now go to 65 ter number 4170, please.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question, a technical

18     question, before moving on.

19             This person that we saw that had two cockades, one on his head or

20     hat or beret and the other one on his jacket, what exactly does this

21     cockade mean ?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cockade designates the Serbian

23     Chetnik Movement.  All Chetniks wore these cockades.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yourself, did you wear one?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally didn't have a cockade,

Page 5554

 1     but some volunteers did.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have to buy this

 3     cockade or was it given to you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually, one would buy it in Knez

 5     Mihajlova Street as a souvenir.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake of the

 8     Chamber, I have to draw your attention to the fact that these two

 9     cockades differ from each other, and you should bear that in mind, the

10     one that Razilovic [phoen] has on his chest and the man next to him who

11     is Chetnik, Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic and this witness doesn't know.  I kept

12     drawing your attention to the fact that these cockades differ, depending

13     on who manufactured them.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             Witness, it seems that these two cockades are different.  What

16     can you say about this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite honestly, I didn't pay

18     much attention to the differences among the cockades, between the

19     cockades.  I only stated that, yes, he has a cockade.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's on the

21     transcript, and the Judges will be very careful with this.

22             Mrs. Biersay, you may resume.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, you mentioned that these items could be bought as

25     souvenirs; is that correct?

Page 5555

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were there other types of memorabilia or insignia that could be

 3     bought as souvenirs?

 4        A.   One could also buy SCP membership cards in various colours, black

 5     with a skull and cross-bones, white, blue.  I would take my membership

 6     card and go to Zoran Drazilovic and say, "I want my membership card to be

 7     different from the others."  And I would take that to him and he would

 8     put a stamp on it and sign it, and that was a sort of souvenir.

 9             Now in Knez Mihajlova, they're selling t-shirts with pictures of

10     Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic.  At that time, they were also selling

11     membership cards with different colours, in gold letters, with

12     double-headed eagles, so anyone could choose what they like, whether a

13     separate coat of arms or --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To the extent that the

15     volunteers in your group seem to have all been monarchists, this cockade

16     that we see, was it a monarchist emblem or not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one, now, I really don't know.

18     You can't see it very well.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But did monarchists have a

20     specific symbol or insignia?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it had to have a crown, which

22     signifies the king.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5556

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, what did you hear the volunteers say about the idea

 9     of greater Serbia?

10        A.   Well, it sounded nice.  Everybody liked the idea.

11        Q.   Did the monarchists also like the idea of greater Serbia?

12        A.   In principle, the monarchists were just helping the people.  They

13     weren't thinking along those lines.

14        Q.   And if I could now direct your attention to the photograph in

15     front of you, which is 4170, and again this comes from the

16     previously-admitted exhibit.

17             Mr. Witness, do you recognise anyone in that photograph?

18        A.   The only person I recognise on this photograph is Brne.  He's one

19     of Seselj's Vojvodas.

20        Q.   And could you mark with an "X", and could we also capture the

21     electronic version as an exhibit.

22        A.   I would have difficulty recognising him if he were to take his

23     cap off, but he always wore this cap at that time.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  May we have an exhibit number for that photograph

25     and the electronic copy as well.

Page 5557

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Registrar, please.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The photograph will become Exhibit P316, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, you just

 5     talked about a Vojvoda.  Looking at him, we see that he's in military

 6     dress, he's wearing a camouflage uniform with a belt, maybe a weapon,

 7     can't really see that, and as you said, he's got this strange headgear.

 8     If you remember well, do you remember what the emblem is on this cap?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can't see very well here.  It's

10     all white.  I really don't see this very well, but he has these flaps

11     coming down like a sort of curtain from his cap, and he was really

12     distinguishable by that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To what unit did he belong?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite honestly, I knew that

15     he fought in Bosnia, and I know him only by sight.  I saw him once in

16     passing, but I don't know the man personally.  I heard from others that

17     it was him.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, what did the others say

19     about him?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that this was Vojvoda

21     Brne, that Seselj had created him a Vojvoda.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is a vojvod, according

23     to you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, Seselj can never be

25     a vojvoda because the king has to declare him to be a vojvoda.  If Rajic

Page 5558

 1     is a vojvoda, he can not create other vojvodas.  He's simply turning

 2     people's heads, misleading the people.  He was making fun of the people,

 3     what he did with making these vojvodas, he was making fun of the people.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So according to you, only a

 5     king can create a vojvoda?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when the king is not

 8     reigning, what happens then?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then there are no vojvodas

10     either.  I can declare myself to be an emperor, Emperor in Majentija

11     [phoen], if there's no king.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.

13             Mrs. Biersay.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  If we can turn to 65 ter number 4177, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And who is it that you recognise, and could you indicate by

18     placing an "X"?

19        A.   Milika, Ceka, Dacevic, that's him here, and this is Cele.

20        Q.   Could you put a "1" on the first person you described and a "2"

21     on the other?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Who is the person that you're marking with a "1"?

24        A.   He's from Pirvoj [phoen], a Montenegrin.  He was also declared to

25     be a vojvoda.  Milika, Ceka, Dacevic.

Page 5559

 1        Q.   And who is number 2?

 2        A.   Cele another one of the vojvodas declared to be such, and I saw

 3     him around in Belgrade.  He was a deputy of the radical Party.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  I move for the admission of this photograph as well

 5     as the electronic, annotated version.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P317, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor knows

 9     very well the first and last name of this Chetnik vojvoda and should tell

10     you so.  If the witness doesn't know, the Prosecutor does, because this

11     photograph is entering the record.  I don't object too it.  That's

12     Miroslav Vukovic knows as Cele, a Chetnik vojvoda.  The Prosecutor knows

13     this and should tell you so, so that the document in the file is properly

14     marked.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Cele has a name,

16     Miroslav Vukovic.  Are you in agreement with this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I agree, but I only know him

20     by his nickname.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what does "Cele" mean as a

22     nickname?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could now move to 4191, please.

Page 5560

 1        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, Mr. Witness?

 2        A.   Ljubisa Petkovic --

 3        Q.   Can you put a "1" on Mr. Petkovic?

 4        A.   Here it is.  This is Aleksic and Drazilovic, the one on the far

 5     right, Zoran Drazilovic.

 6        Q.   Could you please put a "2" on Aleksic and a "3" on Drazilovic?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  And may we have an exhibit number for that --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P318, Your Honours.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  And, finally, if we could move to the next

11     photograph, 4221.

12        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

13        A.   This is Aleksic.  I don't know the others, but I saw him several

14     times in passing.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  May we have an exhibit number for this photograph

16     as well.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P319, Your Honours.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  So just to be clear, Your Honours, the Prosecution

20     is moving for the original photograph as well as the

21     electronically-annotated ones as well.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You want two numbers, in other

23     words?

24             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm not sure if it can be a collection where there

25     are two pages for one exhibit or if it's easier to do it as two numbers.

Page 5561

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The original is the video,

 2     isn't it?

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, yes.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the video already has a

 5     number.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I believe it's P256.

 7     But the photographs have a separate 65 ter number, so I think that's why

 8     they're being given separate "P" numbers, exhibit numbers.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me, because I'm not sure I understand.

10     What is the purpose of having the blank photograph registered as an

11     exhibit as well?

12             MS. BIERSAY:  In my very limited experience, when we get the

13     annotated photographs, they're generally not as clear as the

14     non-annotated ones, so I thought for clarity it would be best just to

15     have both versions, the annotated and unannotated.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Oh, I see.  So you want the

17     non-annotated photograph with a number, two numbers per photograph, in

18     other words?

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A and B.

21             Madam Registrar, can you give us the numbers, photograph by

22     photograph, for the non-annotated ones, i.e., the original photo shown on

23     the screen before the witness put in his crosses.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5562











11 Pages 5562-5567 redacted. Private session.















Page 5568

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It my be time for a break, and

19     we'll resume and you can finish.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The hearing is

23     resumed.

24             Before giving the floor to Mrs. Biersay, before she finishes, the

25     Trial Chamber may sit tomorrow morning.  We planned to sit in the

Page 5569

 1     afternoon, but since the Delic chamber is not sitting, we could sit in

 2     the morning.

 3             Mr. Seselj, as far as you're concerned, is that a problem if we

 4     sit in the morning instead of the afternoon?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that doesn't present a

 6     difficulty.  I am ready to resume tomorrow morning.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 8             I now give the floor to Mrs. Biersay.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But could you tell me how much more

10     time the Prosecutor has so that I know how much time I have?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Biersay still has 18

12     minutes.  However, Mr. Seselj, if need be, you could start your

13     cross-examination tomorrow, unless you absolutely want to start as of one

14     1.30, but you will only have 15 minutes then.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's quite natural

16     that I wish to know whether I'm going to start today at all so that I can

17     be ready, but I don't mind, 15 minutes today, and then I can continue

18     tomorrow.  There's no problem.  I'm going to adapt myself to the time

19     remaining and choose the subjects I want to deal with.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mrs. Biersay.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  I'll make it very easy for Mr. Seselj.  The

22     Prosecution rests with respect to this witness at this time.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, no questions left.

24     Then we can move on.

25             There is 55 minutes left before a quarter to 2:00, take or leave

Page 5570

 1     some minutes, so, Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You see, Mr. President, that I'm

 3     ready for all surprises thrown on me by the Prosecutor.  Nothing can

 4     surprise me or take me unawares.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. VS-033, you said that 99 per cent of the volunteers of

 7     the Serbian Radical Party were monarchists, were of the monarchist

 8     affiliation; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now why did they remain volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party,

11     the members of the Serbian Radical Party, when on many occasions I spoke

12     against the monarchy in public and not even on the symbols or insignia or

13     the flag of the Serbian Radical Party did we ever have any

14     monarchististic coat of arms or emblems of any kind?

15        A.   Well, I'm starting out from my own point of view.  I was a

16     political illiterate, and most of the volunteers at the beginning of the

17     war were like me, politically illiterate, and some still are to this very

18     day.  Now, I haven't become too politically literate in the meantime, but

19     I have learned a few things along the way to read between the lines, and

20     so on when it comes to politics.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        A.   Well, I didn't mean it directly that way, but when people see

25     something is lacking, they have to choose between two evils, the lesser

Page 5571

 1     of two evils.

 2        Q.   Is there anybody normal any political party in Serbia that is

 3     monarchist or any party that advocates that?

 4        A.   Well, perhaps Vuk Draskovic, nobody else.

 5        Q.   So that all the abnormal people have rallied around

 6     Vuk Draskovic, is that right, in favour of the monarchy, because to be a

 7     monarchist in a state that is a republic would not be normal in the 20th

 8     century; right?

 9        A.   Well, I was talking about the monarchy in 1991 about the

10     monarchy.  Later on I saw what was going on and that democracy had

11     arrived.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5572











11 Pages 5572-5578 redacted. Private session.















Page 5579

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I may.

15             To your knowledge, during the war up until now, were there people

16     who disappeared, Croats and Serbs and Muslims, people who disappeared and

17     that the fate of whom is totally unknown; nobody knows whether they're

18     dead, whether they're abroad?  People who really disappeared, were there

19     such people?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know the people

21     personally, but I have heard that there were cases like that, of people

22     disappearing.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, I have to make an

24     objection.  Yes, people do disappear in the war and did disappear in the

25     war, prisoners, civilians, but here we're talking about the disappearance

Page 5580

 1     of an individual who was allegedly within the composition of the

 2     volunteers, and that's absolutely impossible, that somebody went out

 3     there as a volunteer, his name is on all the lists, somebody kills him

 4     over there and then nothing is known further, who the person was, who

 5     killed him, where the body is.  That's quite an impossible situation, and

 6     I had to put that to you.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, when you will

 8     testify, if ever you testify, if you want to, you will explain why it is

 9     that among volunteers there were no people who disappeared and why that's

10     impossible.  This is not the moment to do this.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, resume your

12     questions, please.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5581











11 Pages 5581-5588 redacted. Private session.















Page 5589

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             "Not in a single one of these groups organised by us, this

 4     Slobodan Milevojevic, known as Topola, go there, although I heard that

 5     this man had a group of his own which acted independently in several war

 6     theaters.  I knew him personally, and I know that before the liberation

 7     of Vukovar, he was expelled from the Leva Supoderica Detachment for

 8     indiscipline, and for this reason he could never again be sent to a war

 9     theatre in the organisation of the Serbian Radical Party."

10        A.   Well, how come you say he couldn't go to other war theaters when

11     he arrived in Vocin and was sent back by Radovan Novacic?

12        Q.   Well, he couldn't go there in the organisation of the Serbian

13     Radical Party, so how he came there, who knows.

14        A.   In a bus of the Serbian Radical Party.

15        Q.   Did the Serbian Radical Party have its own buses?

16        A.   It organised buses.

17        Q.   And whose buses were they?

18        A.   I don't know who gave you buses.

19        Q.   And did these buses go through the JNA?

20        A.   I can't say.

21        Q.   Who had the right to take over buses from various transport

22     organisations and companies?  Who could requisition buses from them?

23     Could the Serbian Radical Party do that?

24        A.   I don't know.  It probably could.

25        Q.   Ah-hah.

Page 5590

 1        A.   To reach an agreement to take buses, to transport volunteers.

 2        Q.   If you know he came in a bus of the Serbian Radical Party, what

 3     group of volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party was in that bus, who was

 4     leading that group?

 5        A.   There were about 40 men in that group.

 6        Q.   You're making that up now right here, aren't you?

 7        A.   I'm not making it up.  I'm telling you what I remember.  And they

 8     were put up in the school in Vocin.  They spent one night there, and on

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

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11 Pages 5591-5597 redacted. Private session.















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 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now you see how I'm being taken by

 7     surprise, telling me next week's witnesses and then the Prosecutor has no

 8     right to complain for me not being -- not providing him with the

 9     material, because I have to use the weekend, to read the documents --

10     read through the documents that I have been given for these witnesses,

11     and then to see what I have before me, because I wasn't able to do that

12     ever before, because exhibits started being disclosed to me only as of

13     October last year, and much later the transcripts of the testimony in

14     other trials.  So you can see how many pages I have to get through every

15     weekend, but I do get through them, let me tell you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             We will meet at 9.00 tomorrow.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just tell me how much time I have

19     at my disposal tomorrow, please.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have used 29 minutes.  You

21     have one hour and 31 minutes left.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of

24                           April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.