1 Wednesday, 2 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar, could you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-03-67-T, The Prosecutor versus
10 Vojislav Seselj. The.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
12 So this is Wednesday, the 2nd of April, 2008, and I welcome the
13 members of the OTP, Mr. Mundis, Ms. Biersay, our witness, as well as
14 Mr. Seselj and all the others helping us.
15 We are going to continue the cross-examination. Mr. Seselj has
16 one hour and 39 minutes left, and, Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all I have
18 to bring two matters to your attention of a procedural nature.
19 First, yesterday, the Registrar, without authorisation, censored
20 the entire proceedings, and through the internet all that you could see
21 was 30 to 40 minutes of these proceedings. All the rest was represented
22 as having been conducted in closed session. And the television broadcast
23 yesterday, or rather last night, there was just 30 to 40 minutes of these
24 proceedings shown.
25 Now, from the beginning of the second session, when the
1 Prosecutor asked to go into closed session, and then right up until the
2 end, everything was closed session, even the half hour of my
3 cross-examination, although everything must have been in open session.
4 So I demand that you instruct the Registrar to find a way of rectifying
5 this and broadcasting it via the internet, because of all principles of
6 these proceedings, the public nature of the trial is the most important
7 one as far as I'm concerned.
8 And then there is a problem in the detention centre, in prison,
9 which for the next 20 days to one month will make it more difficult for
10 my trial, because there is some construction work going on, so they're
11 moving us around from one floor to another, and I'm not going to have the
12 necessary time and conditions to set out my documents, and everything
13 will have to be packed into boxes. So I demand that you instruct the
14 Prosecutor tomorrow and, at the latest, the day after, a firm schedule
15 for April so that I can set aside all the documents that I will need for
16 April to be able to prepare my defence successfully, because if my
17 documents are packed up, as of next week, I'm not going to have any
18 quality time to prepare for the proceedings.
19 So those are the two matters which I wish to raise this morning
20 of a procedural nature.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 The first issue, the internet broadcast. Why is it that only 30
23 minutes out of some four hours of hearing were to be broadcast? I don't
24 know. The Registrar and the Legal Officer are going to look into this,
25 and the Trial Chamber will keep you abreast of developments.
1 The second thing, the construction work underway in the jail.
2 This is news to me. Of course, this might have consequences or an impact
3 on how you can prepare for your defence. We will talk to the prison
4 manager so he can tell us how he can make sure not to disturb you, to
5 disturb you as least as possible.
6 And regarding the list of witnesses for April, I think we already
7 had a draft list. Maybe Mr. Mundis could send it to you quickly without
8 any problems.
9 Mr. Mundis, regarding April witnesses for the four weeks to come,
10 do you have a list?
11 MR. MUNDIS: We'll provide that list later this morning.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you will have
13 this list at the end of the day, at least.
14 We are in open session. At 9.31, I will check that everything is
15 being broadcast on the internet, of course, if there's no closed session
16 in between.
17 Now you have the floor again.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS VS-033
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]
21 Q. Mr. VS-033, you gave two statements to The Hague Tribunal, one in
22 2004 and another one in 2006; isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In neither of these two statements did you mention this alleged
25 killing of the volunteer Muslim by the other volunteers of the Serbian
1 Radical Party, did you? You mentioned that for the first time on the
2 26th of July and 28th of March this year, at the proofing session with
3 the investigator, Paolo Pastorre-Stocchi; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So this very notable thing, if it were true, you just seemed to
6 forget to say in 2004 and 2006; it was only subsequently that you thought
7 up telling this lie about an event that never happened; isn't that right?
8 A. No, that isn't right.
9 Q. All right. If it's not right, I have proof to show that it was.
10 You can say whatever you like.
11 Now, in addition to the fact that you told a lie about
12 Goran Hadzic receiving the first group of volunteers, you subsequently,
13 in the proofing session, said that he was also -- they were also welcomed
14 by Veljko Dzakula, although you never mentioned Dzakula's name either in
15 2004 or 2006; isn't that right?
16 A. I didn't know at the time what his name was. I forgot his
17 surname. But after talking to some volunteers, I remembered later on
18 what his surname was.
19 Q. But you didn't know how to differentiate between Eastern and
20 Western Slavonia, so you inserted Goran Hadzic there, although he never
21 had any institutional authority there; right?
22 A. Well, I don't know whether he had any power and authority, but he
23 was there and greeted us.
24 Q. In your first statement, in paragraph 22, you state that -- in
25 your first statement, you said that the Serbian Radical Party -- no, it's
1 not paragraph 22.
2 Anyway, you said that the Serbian Radical Party, for every
3 volunteer, received 1.000 German marks from the Territorial Defence of
4 Western Slavonia and the DB of Serbia; is that right? Did you say that,
5 in fact?
6 A. That's what I heard up at the front, at the battlefield, from the
7 commander of the village in Western Slavonia, and I stated that, yes.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
10 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 One, I'm finding it very difficult to hear the translation in my
12 headphones because of the voice of Mr. Seselj is reaching this far. And,
13 secondly, I do have the statements of the witness in his language, if it
14 would be of assistance to him.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no need, because the
16 witness remembers it all, and that's what the witness said in
17 paragraph 22 of his statement of 2006. And in the statement of 2004, he
18 makes no mention of that at all. So those are the facts, and don't take
19 up my time.
20 Q. So you told a lie about that, too?
21 A. No, I did not tell a lie. I mentioned it. Perhaps the
22 Prosecution failed to record it, but I'm sure I mentioned it.
23 Q. Then you go on to say that General Anton Tus gave you a
24 certificate or authorisation for fuel?
25 A. Radovan and I interpreted the signature as "Tus," but Radovan
1 went to the headquarters because not everybody can receive this
2 authorisation for fuel. It has to be an authorised officer. You can't
3 have an ordinary soldier issuing authorisation of that kind.
4 Q. You even quote the words, allegedly, of General Tus; right?
5 A. Radovan told me that the officer who gave him the authorisation
6 told him that he would best like to arrest us, but he couldn't do that
7 because he had an order from the leadership that he had to assist us and
8 had to give it to us.
9 Q. And you drew the conclusion that that was Anton Tus who, in
10 November of 1991, wasn't in the JNA at all then; isn't that right?
11 A. At that time, he was in the JNA, and then he left some ten days
13 Q. Is he was not in the JNA.
14 A. All right, well, I don't know that. But, anyway -- well, I don't
15 know that. All I do know is what Radovan and I discussed.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you must absolutely
17 turn off your microphone, because this witness is granted protective
18 measures. And, please, make a break between questions and answers.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, yes.
20 Q. General Anton Tus was the commander of the Air Force and Anti-Air
21 Defence, and he was pensioned off from that post sometime in June 1995,
22 and several months later he went to Croatia. Now, when you were lying
23 and were saying that he gave you this authorisation, you had absolutely
24 no idea who he was or what he was. You heard the name "Anton Tus," the
25 signature seemed to be something like "Tos," and so why not, you can sell
1 that to The Hague Tribunal because they don't have any idea about
2 anything, anyway.
3 Furthermore, you stated, and that was in paragraph 33 of the
4 statement of 2006, that with the volunteers in Western Slavonia, there
5 was an official of the State Security, and that you concluded that he
6 submitted reports and that Ljubisa Petkovic was frequently in contact
7 with officials from the DP, et cetera. In 2004 you make no mention of
8 that whatsoever.
9 And you also told the lie with respect to any DB official with
10 the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party in Western Slavonia; isn't
11 that right?
12 A. No, it isn't.
13 Q. Very well. Now, you also told another lie and said that I wanted
14 to kill Radovan Novacic and that Novacic wanted to kill me. Now, I have
15 here a statement from Radovan Novacic, where he refutes both lies. Isn't
16 that right?
17 A. No, it's not right.
18 Q. You also lied in paragraph 56. You said:
19 "When I attended a dinner in Zvecevo, organised by Colonel
20 Trbojevic," where you were not, but the entire leadership of Western
21 Slovenia did attend the dinner, including Veljko Dzakula, Veljko Vukelic,
22 and Ilija Sasic, and so on and so forth, and you said that Trbojevic then
23 gave me a brown bag with some money. You slipped that into your
24 statement of 2006, whereas you don't say that in the 2004 statement?
25 A. What I said is correct, and I did attend a dinner. I didn't take
1 part. I was the security detail for you, because Radovan Novacic put up
2 the volunteers in the Zvecevo Hotel to provide security while you were
3 there. So you stayed for a brief period of time. You didn't even have
4 dinner. You just had a little something to eat, and you picked up your
5 brief case. One was brown, the other was blue. I don't know about the
6 blue one, what was in there, but I do know there was money in the brown
7 brief case, because I was standing to your left just two metres away and
8 I saw you open the brief case and saw that the money was inside and Zoran
9 Miscevic brought it to you. He handed it over to you personally.
10 Q. So now I have two brief case, one brown and one blue?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you say Zoran Miscevic gave me the money and I opened it and
13 counted the money?
14 A. You didn't count it. He said, "Do you want to count it?" You
15 said, "There was no need." You just took a glance and said, "There was
16 no need for the money to be counted."
17 Q. All that's a lie. That's all lies, and you didn't remember to
18 mention that here yesterday, either.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.
20 Mr. Seselj, I've been told that after you ask your question,
21 please turn off your microphone. If you don't turn off your microphone,
22 then the answer of the witness can be heard through your own microphone,
23 without distortion, and that is a technical problem that has just been
24 brought to my attention.
25 Mrs. Biersay.
1 MS. BIERSAY: The problem is also compounded by the volume of
2 Mr. Seselj's voice, so if he could just speak a little bit lower, then I
3 could actually hear the translation and maybe it wouldn't travel into the
4 witness's microphone.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj will do
6 his utmost to make sure we don't run into technical problems.
7 Now, Witness, please, I would like to come back to an issue that
8 might be minor or major. I don't know yet how it will turn out.
9 In your written statement, you said -- and Mr. Seselj asked you
10 questions about this. So you said that Mr. Seselj allegedly intended to
11 have Novacic killed, and I thought I understood that Novacic seemed to
12 have the same plan, which is quite surprising. Why would Mr. Seselj want
13 Mr. Novacic killed? Do you have an explanation for this?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The explanation is because Novacic
15 already had problems in the territory of Western Slavonia, and people had
16 already been sent from the Radical Party who did want to kill him at the
17 headquarters at Lager, so that when we were down there at the War Staff,
18 we heard that they were waiting for him all up there to kill him, up at
19 the headquarters there. And Novacic gathered together his men, and I was
20 one of them, and we went to the War Staff to see who it was who wanted to
21 kill him.
22 However, Mr. Seselj, with his security guards, had left, and the
23 people up there -- Slavko Misic was there and some more volunteers, quite
24 a number of them, and Ljubisa Petkovic was up there, and he managed to
25 calm the situation down at the headquarters.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it seems that
2 there was a plan to kill Novacic, but what was the motivation behind it?
3 Why did people want Novacic killed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know why they wanted
5 to kill him. All I can do is assume -- well, since in the War Staff,
6 when they wanted to kill him at Lager, it was, "Don't call Radovan, call
7 Goran." And as I was with him all the time, and I know what from what he
8 said, that they used to refer to him as "Goran" when he was small, but he
9 was actually named "Radovan" by the best man, they wanted to use that,
10 that this was a man who had been infiltrated from Croatia and that he was
11 a spy and that they should kill him at Lager. And since some people from
12 Belgrade knew me, some of the volunteers from Belgrade, they listened to
13 me, and I explained to them that -- what the situation was like and what
14 Radovan's situation was like, that he was called "Goran" when he was a
15 small child, but that in fact he was Radovan. Everybody in his family
16 called him "Goran." But they wanted to use this mix-up and say he was a
17 Croatian spy. This was at Lager.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So if I understood
19 you well, there was a suspicion that he might be a Croat spy infiltrated
20 within the SRS?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But if that was
23 true, he should have been killed later on, which never happened. Why is
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because he didn't go back to
1 Lager. Had he gone back to Western Slavonia, they probably would have
2 killed him, but he went to Loznica, and by doing that he managed saved
3 his life. Otherwise, they would have killed him.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please resume.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And since that killing was quite obviously, in your opinion, a
7 way in which I behaved, do you know of any instance where I killed
8 someone or that somebody was killed pursuant to my orders? Tell me that,
10 A. Well, the volunteers at the battle front certainly didn't go to
11 pick any corn.
12 Q. Well, what did they do pursuant to my orders? Did the volunteers
13 kill the maise?
14 A. Well, they didn't pick it, either.
15 Q. Well, the volunteers went to war to fight, and when somebody is
16 killed on the battleground, it's not murder as a criminal act. I'm
17 asking you: Do you know -- can you quote a single instance where I
18 killed a man, and give me his name and surname, or that anybody following
19 orders from me specifically killed someone? Not to go into battle and
20 kill someone in battle during the fighting, but that he expressly killed
21 an individual pursuant to my orders. Quote me anything like that, if you
23 A. I don't know about any killings, but I know about people being
24 beaten up.
25 Q. And who was beaten up on my orders?
1 A. Well --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
3 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] [French spoken]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once again a problem with the
5 mic, Mr. Seselj, a technical problem. It should work now.
6 Witness, you partially answered the question. You said that you
7 know of somebody who was beaten. Who, when, and how, and where?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was in the Serbian
9 volunteers fund, the office was shared with the SCP, so I know about some
10 people who, on the orders of Drazilovic, went and beat people up who were
11 not -- he did not share their political opinions. But that was when a
12 group left the Radical Party, and then they were mistreated and beaten
13 up. These were the volunteers from Palilula.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. One name, please give us one name of a man who left the Serbian
16 Radical Party and that then Drazilovic gave the order for him to be
17 beaten up. Who was it?
18 A. Well, at that time Jovic, this guy Jovic, and I know that --
19 well, I can't really attribute that to you, but his wife, Pa ska, had her
20 throat slit at that time.
21 Q. First of all, Slobodan Jovic's wife was killed several years
22 after he left the Serbian Radical Party, is that right, and she was
23 killed in the course of a robbery of a store that she owned. And now you
24 want to say that this was done on my orders; is that right?
25 A. Well, at that time you were at the CZ, at the time when she was
2 Q. And from the prison, I gave an order for Slobodan Jovic's wife to
3 be killed? I had already forgotten all about him .
4 A. I'm not saying that you issued the order for her to be killed,
5 but pressure was exerted on those people who left the Serbian Radical
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: Could the witness and
8 Mr. Seselj please not speak at the same time. It's impossible to
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So you're not able to give us a single name of a member of the
12 Serbian Radical Party who was beaten up by the activists of the party.
13 In 2004, you stated that I and the Serbian State Security Service, and
14 the Unit for Special Operations, the so-called Red Berets, organised the
15 transportation by helicopter of Serb volunteers to Srebrenica, and that
16 from the volunteers who had been in Srebrenica, you heard that the
17 volunteers there were under the control of the Red Berets and that they
18 wore red berets themselves. That was in 1995; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then when you gave a new statement in 2006, you left that
21 out. There is no mention of it at all?
22 A. Well, I didn't leave that out. Perhaps it's the OTP that left it
24 Q. The OTP left it out because even the OTP could not buy the lie of
25 this proportions, because the Prosecution knows that in July 1995, when
1 the operation to liberate Srebrenica was underway, I was incarcerated by
2 Milosevic, and that's something that you did not have in mind; is that
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
5 MS. BIERSAY: I object to this line of -- it's not even
6 questioning, but testimony and commentary by Mr. Seselj. To the extent
7 that he has a question for the witness, he should pose it.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Seselj, please ask
9 your questions.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I keep asking my questions,
11 and I mention things, incredible things, from the statements that the
12 witness made that he did not mention in his examination-in-chief, and I'm
13 trying to show that between 2004 and 2006, the OTP got scared because of
14 the magnitude of the lies this witness furnished to them and that that
15 cannot be based on anything.
16 I was incarcerated for two months in the prison in Gnjilane, and
17 to say that I organised my volunteers to go to Srebrenica at that time,
18 with Milosevic's forces -- this witness is incredibly important for me.
19 He is the very image of the OTP, in moral sense and in every other sense,
20 because you can see from the testimony of this witness in which way the
21 OTP is operating and how deep embroiled in all these lies it is.
22 Unfortunately, this worked fine for them in many of the cases before this
24 May I continue?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that volunteers said to
1 you that volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party went to Srebrenica with
2 a unit of the Red Berets. And you confirm this?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in Skelani and in Srebrenica.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the accused said earlier
5 on that at that time he was in prison. Does that seem possible to you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he's not the only one in
7 command of the Radical Party and the volunteers. Well, the party
8 continues to function even though he's in prison now, regardless of where
9 he is.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. But in the Gnjilane prison, I was together with Tomislav Nikolic
12 and a large number of other officials from the Serbian Radical Party.
13 Almost the entire leadership was arrested by Milosevic, and the rest of
14 the activists and leaders cooperated with Milosevic and sent volunteers
15 to Srebrenica. Is that what you're saying?
16 A. No, that's not.
17 Q. Was Tomislav Nikolic with me in the prison in Gnjilane?
18 A. Well, I don't know who was with you in prison, but I do know that
19 the volunteers went there.
20 Q. And then again you lied, that I had ordered that the Muslim --
21 that the Muslims be attacked with automatic rifles at the Belgrade mosque
22 as they left their prayers at 6.00 p.m. That's what you said?
23 A. I said that your man from your security, Vojkan Pacov, a major,
24 that was his nickname, that he ordered us to do that and that we chased
25 him away from the party because nobody liked him, and that's why we
1 forced him out.
2 Q. How did you force him out of the party when you were not a member
3 of the Serbian Radical Party at the time? You left the Serbian Radical
4 Party in early 1992, and you joined the White Eagles.
5 A. That's not true.
6 Q. And in 1992, you were at Vojkovic with the White Eagles. That's
7 what you say in your statement.
8 A. No, I did not join the White Eagles, that's not correct, and I
9 was at the Serbian Volunteers Fund which was at the SCP. The SCP and the
10 humanitarian organisation, the Serbian Volunteers, shared the same
12 Q. How is it that you were not in the White Eagles when, in your
13 statement here, you say --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
15 Ms. Biersay.
16 MS. BIERSAY: I think Mr. Seselj anticipated my objection. Could
17 he please direct us to the paragraphs to which he's referring when he
18 poses these questions to the witness?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The reference to the White
20 Eagles, where did he say that, Mr. Seselj?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's at paragraph 64 of the 2004
22 statement, and then another mention is made in paragraph 63 of the 2006
23 statement. But in paragraph 64, the 2004 one, he says that in late 1992
24 or 1993, through Goran Stojkovic and the Serbian National Defence, that
25 Dragoslav Bokan contacted him and asked him to train his men at Vojkovici
1 in Republika Srpska near Sarajevo for 15 days of his absence, and so on
2 and so forth, and he goes on to describe all that, and he says that they
3 were all promised a thousand German marks and so on.
4 Now, in the 2006 statement --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to explain first of all, she
7 can't really be interrupting every sentence that I start, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I agree with you, but if
9 Ms. Biersay gets up, stands up, she thinks that there is something
10 important. What is it?
11 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, instead of Mr. Seselj representing to
12 the witness what the witness said, I believe it would be helpful for the
13 witness to actually look at the statements that he provided.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm moving on. I don't have time
15 to waste. You're simply trying to find methods to make me waste as much
16 time as possible.
17 Q. VS-033, you should have read those statements before you appeared
18 in court. I have another question.
19 A. Can I answer the previous question?
20 Q. Please do.
21 A. Dragoslav Bokan asked me to look after his people at Vojkovic
22 village and for us conduct some kind of training before he manages to
23 gather all his people in Vojkovici, and he said that he would be there.
24 We went there as mercenaries. He said that everybody -- every man would
25 receive 1.000 German marks per month. That's what I said.
1 Q. Mr. VS-033, when was the first time that you got in touch with
2 Natasha Kandic?
3 A. Well, I don't know. The Serbian authority didn't want to issue
4 an ID to me for four and a half months, and I had to go and talk to
5 somebody, because I wanted to come here and testify. I couldn't get the
6 ID card for four and a half months, and usually you get it immediately.
7 Even the worst criminals get it immediately.
8 Q. What year did it happen? When did you talk to Natasha Kandic to
9 get her to do something about your ID card?
10 A. Last year.
11 Q. And before that, did you have any contact with her?
12 A. No, never before that.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to show the
14 witness document number nine. It's a statement by a Defence witness,
15 Aleksandar Gajic, and this witness knows this man quite well, and he will
16 tell us everything about the context of this witness and Natasha Kandic.
17 I received this yesterday by fax.
18 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 In quickly looking at this, not that I read Cyrillic -- excuse
20 me, this one isn't in Cyrillic. But to the extent that it gives the
21 name -- gives us the true name of the witness, I would ask that we move
22 to private session.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I propose that the screen be
24 shown only for us in court, and as we quote parts of this document, I
25 will not be mentioning the name of this witness. I will just mention the
1 name of Aleksandar Gajic and not Natasha Kandic. Aleksandar Gajic is my
2 Defence witness and Natasha Kandic must be mentioned here, so I would
3 like us not to go into closed session.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, in technical terms, there
5 is this possibility for not broadcasting this document outside, so we can
6 go ahead in this manner.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you have this document in front of you now? Is it on the
9 screen? This is a statement made by Aleksandar Gajic on the 31st of
10 March, 2008, and it was certified by the competent court in Belgrade.
11 You can see that here, in the first paragraph, he talks about what he
12 knows about the methods used by the OTP in The Hague, false accusations,
13 and about his reasons why he got in touch with my expert team assisting
14 me with my defence. And here he starts to discuss Natasha Kandic and
15 you, and let us move on to the next paragraph and I will read this
16 paragraph to you. He says:
17 "In the summer of 2007, I," and then he mentions your name, "was
18 called" --
19 I will speak slowly:
20 "I was called on the phone, and he told me that he had gotten in
21 touch with Natasha Kandic from the Humanitarian Law Centre in Belgrade,
22 and that he had been there several times to receive instructions and to
23 be proofed in the premises of the Humanitarian Rights Centre at McKenzie
24 Street and that he had agreed to testify as a Prosecution witness at the
25 Tribunal in The Hague at the trial against Professor Vojislav Seselj and
1 that Natasha Kandic wanted to get her revenge on the Serbian Radical
2 Party and Professor Vojislav Seselj because she pathologically hated
3 Vojislav Seselj."
4 Did you, in the summer of 2007, call Aleksandar Gajic and tell
5 him that?
6 A. This is not true at all. Aleksandar Gajic introduced me to
7 Natasha Kandic, in fact. This is definitely not correct, and I am not
8 surprised that you received such statements from Serbia, because mafia
9 rules in Serbia and you are part of the mafia, and it's not the state
10 that is in power. Everything -- all the institutions, the judicial
11 system is contaminated, so I'm not surprised. God knows what kind of
12 pressure this man was under when he was forced to write something like
13 that. I wouldn't like to be in his skin, seeing what he had to write. I
14 know this man. He's one of my best friends, and I'm really sorry -- I
15 feel really sorry for him. God knows what you're doing to him in Serbia;
16 not only to him, but to all the others, when they have to write these
17 kind of lies. I went to elementary school with him, and I know him, I
18 know this man.
19 Q. And when was the last time that you were in contact with
20 Aleksandar Gajic?
21 A. Well, I can't recall now. Two months ago, a month ago.
22 Q. Well, you're lying again, Mr. VS-033. You called him last night
23 twice and you sent him an SMS message, using your phone here in
24 The Hague, (redacted).
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if you give his
1 phone number, everybody will know who he is, so we'll have to redact
3 MS. BIERSAY: Could we go into private session briefly,
4 Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private
6 session, because we're talking here about personal issues with the
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 5620-5624 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have a 20-minute break
8 now. Yes, I thought we'd begun at half past 8.00, but we began at 9.00,
9 so we still have 30 minutes ahead of us. My mistake. I thought we had
10 begun earlier today.
11 Mr. Seselj, you have 30 minutes left.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You mean 30 minutes to the break?
13 I hope not 30 minutes in total.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have 30 minutes until the
15 break. So far, you've used up 56 minutes. You have one hour and four
16 minutes left.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Let's start off with the last paragraph now, which is
19 particularly interesting to me because it speaks about the methodology
20 employed by Natasha Kandic in her work and Natasha Kandic appears with
21 every false witness. So, Mr. VS-033, I'm now going to read out that
22 particular paragraph. Aleksandar Gajic writes as follows:
23 "In my intention to learn whether it was true, at the proposal,"
24 and then he mentions your name, "I went with him to a meeting with
25 Natasha Kandic, to her flat, which is located in Gvozdiceva [phoen]
1 Street in Belgrade, not far from the St. Sava Church."
2 Now, next page, please:
3 "I was directly taken there," and then he says your name, "on
4 that occasion," and then once again your name, "introduced me to Natasha
5 Kandic as a potential Prosecution witness against Vojislav Seselj, which
6 took me by surprise. I noticed that Natasha Kandic at that point in time
7 was very pleased, and she said, 'Now I have another witness against
8 Vojislav Seselj,' adding that rarely did people dare to testify against
9 Vojislav Seselj.
10 "Now, to uncover the real intentions of Natasha Kandic, I agreed
11 to cooperate with her in order to be able to arrive at information about
12 her hostile activity and activity against the Serb people, the Serb
13 Radical Party, and Professor Dr. Vojislav Seselj."
14 She was convinced that she had found a true and real collaborator
15 and cooperator. Natasha Kandic gave me her telephone numbers, her
16 landline, (redacted)
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. We will redact
18 everything dealing with the address and the telephone number of Natasha
20 Continue, Mr. Seselj.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you've redacted that, we can
22 move on to the next paragraph straight away, because he mentions her
23 mobile telephone number. So it's not anything that's terribly secret, in
24 my opinion, but never mind. We can see that he knows all the numbers and
25 he knows Natasha Kandic's address, where she resides, and then Aleksandar
1 Gajic goes on to state the following:
2 "As the trial against Professor Vojislav Seselj has started, I
3 keep getting telephone calls from Natasha Kandic inviting me, together
4 with," and then she says your name, it almost slipped out, I've just
5 remembered, anyway, "to go to the premises for the Fund for Humanitarian
6 Law on an unspecified day in the summer of 2007," and you, your name,
7 "came to so me, and he insisted that I ring up Natasha Kandic and ask her
8 whether she is free and whether she wishes to receive us for talks. I
9 rang up Natasha Kandic over the phone, and she told me -- told us to take
10 a taxi to take us to the Fund for Humanitarian Law and that she would pay
11 for the taxi."
12 And then she mentions your name again and says:
13 "He and I went to Natasha Kandic together on the premises of the
14 Fund for Humanitarian Law, where she greeted us."
15 And then he goes on to say that they came across some women
16 there, they introduced themselves as victims from Srebrenica, and things
17 like that. So we can skip over the next part.
18 Anyway, Aleksandar Gajic goes on to say lower down the following:
19 "Before we set off to see Natasha Kandic," and then mentions your
20 name, "told me that he was going to stack up things for the Serbian
21 Radical Party and Professor Dr. Vojislav Seselj and Ljubisa Petkovic, to
22 the effect that they had committed crimes in Western Slavonia and other
23 places in Croatia and Bosnia. And when I asked him, 'Man, how can you
24 fabricate such lies and accuse other people of crimes they did not
25 commit,'" and then they mentioned your name, "told me," and there are
1 some swear words here which I don't want to repeat, but you invoke my
2 mother in those swear words, et cetera, "and then Aleksandar Gajic" -- do
3 you want me to read it out or do you want it to read out? Or shall we
4 skip over those swear words? What do you think, VS-033, shall we skip
6 A. Skip them.
7 MS. BIERSAY: No probative value at all.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we don't know if there's
9 any probative value, whether there's relevance as to the credibility of
10 the witness, so the question could be raised.
11 But there's another problem here, Mr. Seselj. On screen now we
12 have a text that does not seem to correspond with the document number 9,
13 page 17, 18, 19 and 20. Is this a mistake or not?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this ought to be page 18 now,
15 but we can't see the whole page on the screen. I don't think it's a
16 mistake. But, anyway, I skipped that portion, I didn't read the whole of
17 that paragraph out.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can resume.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the lady can shift the page so
20 we can see the very bottom of the page, because that's where I'd like to
21 read from now, that's where I got to.
22 We can see the end part now, and I'm going to read the sentence
23 out. Where your name was mentioned, Aleksandar Gajic mentions your name,
24 Witness, and said you told him that Natasha Kandic had promised him a lot
25 of money just to Vojislav Seselj and his volunteers.
1 Now, did Natasha indeed promise you any remuneration, Mr. VS-033?
2 A. That's a blatant lie. And it says here he called Natasha Kandic.
3 Now, why would he call up Natasha Kandic if allegedly I was a friend of
4 hers, as you said at the beginning?
5 Q. Well, that's not strange.
6 A. Why would I tell him to call if I was supposed to call, if I want
7 to call someone, I call that person up. I'm not going to say, "Now, you
8 call the person up and agree on a meeting." I would do that myself, if I
9 wanted to, which means that you can see that he's lying here.
10 Q. Well, that's nothing strange, because you came to his flat and
11 you told him to call up Natasha Kandic.
12 A. Well, we're friends from childhood, he and I.
13 Q. This time, the witness is interrupting me. So you went to see
14 him, to his home, and told him to call her up, and I suppose you're both
15 friends with Natasha Kandic, so why shouldn't he ring her up and the
16 telephone was in his apartment, so there's nothing strange about that;
17 isn't that right?
18 A. No, it's not. I was a friends with him since childhood, so if I
19 go to his house, I can ring up and use his phone myself. There's no need
20 for him to do that. If I want to insist on something, then I can pick up
21 the phone and call.
22 Q. Okay, let us move on, let's move on to the next page.
3 MS. BIERSAY: This is exactly why perhaps we need to be in
4 private session, if Mr. Seselj is unable to respect the protective
5 measures of this witness.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did I mention the name?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I did, then I apologise. It can
10 be redacted. It happened by accident, it can be redacted from the
11 recording, and I don't think it's a problem for it to be redacted both
12 from the transcript and the recording.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 I will skip one section again, and let me move on to the last
15 paragraph on this page, although I marked the whole statement as
16 important, but I don't have time to show you everything. But you can
17 take a copy of it with you. I don't have anything against that.
18 Aleksandar Gajic goes on to say:
19 "In early January 2008, I went to the apartment of," mentioning
20 your name, in the street that's the address, where -- and it says who
21 lives there with you, and he says that you called Natasha Ka ndic on the
22 phone, and then I go on to quote:
23 "And in my presence, he asked her to give him safe passage from
24 Belgrade to (redacted) so that he can stay there and prepare for the trial
25 as a Prosecution witness against Vojislav Seselj."
1 Did you really spend the first months of this year in (redacted)
2 preparing for your testimony?
3 A. This is nothing but a lie.
4 Q. I really would like to hear what the Prosecution wants to say.
5 Are they objecting because this is not true or because of protective
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, what are the
8 grounds for your objection? What are you objecting to?
9 MS. BIERSAY: I am objecting to Mr. Seselj using information that
10 is highly likely to identify this witness, specifically, which includes
11 various locations connected to this witness, which includes the
12 association between Mr. Gajic and this witness and the nature of their
13 relationship. And we do believe that this tends to identify,
14 specifically, this witness.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you heard the
16 witness say that it is (redacted)
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lie is that Natasha Kandic
18 organised that. That's the lie.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. But so you did go there?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. (redacted)
23 (redacted), I believe that the
24 Trial Chamber should consult on this first.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
4 Resume, Mr. Seselj.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I will not mention this
6 section that has been redacted.
7 Let us move on to page 4. I don't have much time. I would like
8 to finish this topic by the break.
9 Q. Here, you can see that on several occasions over the past two
10 months, you used your mobile phone to send messages to Aleksandar Gajic
11 once you heard that he would appear as a Defence witness. So it was not
12 only last night that you were in contact with him. Over the past two
13 months, you were in contact with him on several occasions, yet you claim
14 that you were not?
15 A. Had I known that he was a Defence witness earlier, I would not
16 have contacted him at all.
17 Q. But you'd never heard my question.
18 A. Well, let me answer this one first, because you always ask ten
19 questions, but let me answer now. Had I known, but I didn't know --
20 Q. But please wait for my question. I know that you are nervous.
21 You have every reason to be nervous. You were caught in a lie. The
22 Trial Chamber is now aware of the fact that you are a big liar, because
23 you face criminal prosecution because of the lies. You lied under oath
24 and you lied before the Trial Chamber that you didn't send any SMS
25 messages --
1 A. Well, nobody mentioned any SMS messages. I was talking about
2 whether I talked to him or not.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, very well.
4 Mr. Seselj and Mr. Witness, please, do not speak so loudly. Your voice
5 is so loud now that no one can be heard, so make sure that one asks the
6 question, the other one answers the question.
7 Mr. Seselj, ask your question.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, the witness and Mr. Seselj
9 are speaking at the same time.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Since I don't want to go into closed session again, you have
12 several SMS messages here, three of them, the ones that you sent at an
13 earlier time to Aleksandar Gajic, and he noted them down. Do you confirm
14 that these are the three messages that you sent, that you're threatening
15 him with Paolo, whatever his name is, Stocchi?
16 I filed a criminal report against him recently.
17 Did you send these three messages to Aleksandar Gajic; do you
18 recall that?
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. It seems
20 that the interpreters into French noted something which I believe is
21 important. I would like her to be able to repeat it, and I would like it
22 to also to be translated into English. I think it's really important to
23 be able to understand the question of the contacts.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, would you like me to
25 read out those three messages?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, that's not the problem.
2 Mr. Seselj, at one point in time you talked about the contacts,
3 and it seems that in your own language there are two words that may have
4 two meanings. The interpreter into French, who knows your language, will
5 tell us what are these two versions, and this will also be translated
6 into English.
7 So could the interpreter in the B/C/S-French booth tell us, what
8 are the two meanings of "contact" in B/C/S?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, it's probably
10 the best -- the best thing to do would be for me to explain, because you
11 don't have a better expert for Serbian language than I am. "Contact"
12 means every contact, a meeting, a telephone --
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the interpreter is
14 talking. It's an official interpreter from this Tribunal. You are not
15 the official interpreter of this Tribunal. You're not even a witness.
16 So please let the interpreter speak.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the interpreter say, in
18 Serbian, what these two words are? And Mr. Seselj will comment if he
19 wishes to.
20 Please repeat what you said.
21 [French spoken]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Listening to someone, and the other is
23 "kontaktirati," meaning having contact with.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the second one is
25 "kontaktirati," and my Serbian is not very good, to say the least, but
1 those are the two words.
2 Mr. Seselj, any comment on this?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I never used the word "cuti se," to
4 talk to someone, because if somebody -- if we use this word, it means to
5 talk to somebody on the phone. I said "contact," and the word "contact,"
6 uses -- talking to somebody, letters, meeting somebody, messages, any
7 kind of contact, I was specific here, and the witness denied everything.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sending an SMS message, that
9 is a direct thing, and contacting somebody is to talk to somebody,
10 "cuti se," over the phone.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now you have a witness who is
12 an expert in the Serbian language.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the way I understood it,
14 "cuti se," "kontaktirati," that means to talk to somebody.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are a few minutes before
17 the break.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In the next paragraph after the three messages --
20 A. May I comment on those messages?
21 Q. Please wait for me to ask you a question.
22 A. Well, but what question am I supposed to answer?
23 Q. In the next paragraph, Aleksandar Gajic says that on the 14th of
24 March, 2008, because he's noting down every contact with him very
25 diligently, at 1948 hours, from the phone he notes the number that you
1 called him, and that you were intoxicated, and that you said -- and then
2 he goes on to quote you, that you had called a man. I don't want to
3 mention his name, because that man should not know that you are here in
4 the courtroom. That you cursed him, cursing his mother, and that you
5 said that you would kill Aleksandar Vucic, Tomo Nikolic, and that you
6 were -- you would send from that location where you had been in hiding
7 with the assistance of Natasha Kandic, some people to get rid of him.
8 This is what Aleksandar Gajic noted down, and I want to know if this is
9 true or not. I don't want to hear your comments, why you did that, but
10 is it true that there was this telephone conversation and that this is
11 what you said?
12 A. There was this telephone conversation, because my family received
13 threats, and I said that if anything happened to my family, that I would
14 have my revenge. So, yes, there was this contact with Gajic, but I don't
15 know the exact date. It was -- what's the date here, the 14th of March?
16 Yes, it may have been the 14th of March.
17 Q. Gajic --
18 A. But I guess this was in February. I don't think that it was
19 really on the 14th of March.
20 Q. Gajic, from this --
21 A. And I did not curse anyone's mother, and I did not mention in
22 that conversation Tomo Nikolic. I did mention the others.
23 Q. So you threatened only Vucic?
24 A. I did not threaten anyone. I merely said -- I did not make any
25 threats. I said -- I just said that they should be careful about what
1 they are doing.
2 Q. Okay, if that's not a threat, then we can go on.
3 As this text goes on, Aleksandar Gajic says:
4 "I had the opportunity to see and to make sure that this man,"
5 and your name is mentioned, "that he spends a lot of money in restaurants
6 every day, that he drives -- he goes around in taxis every day and he
7 smokes expensive cigarettes, yet he does not have a job, and he spends
8 lots of money. I was able to see that this started when he got in
9 contact with Natasha Kandic and when he started cooperating with her. On
10 one occasion, he showed me a large number of Euros saying, 'Atso [phoen],
11 you're crazy,' agreed cooperate with Natasha Kandic and with the Tribunal
12 in The Hague, 'We will live like emperors, we will have as much money as
13 we need. We can go to and live in some other country. The Tribunal in
14 The Hague will pay for all that. Come on, brother, let's do'" something
15 "'to Seselj.'"
16 It was actually a swear word, and I am such a polite man I don't
17 want to repeat the swear word that you used:
18 "Let us go to some other country and let's get some black women
19 to wave around, to cool us off, and we will just drink and make merry on
20 the beach."
21 So it seems that you think that black women are predestined for
23 A. Well, I can't imagine that Aleksandar Gajic would say that. Is
24 he alive at all? I don't know what you did to him.
25 Q. He will appear in this courtroom.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, it is impossible to
2 interpret when the witness and Mr. Seselj are speaking at the same time.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj. Well, Mr. Seselj,
4 put your question, wait for the answer -- and wait for the answer to be
5 over before you ask a new question. You are talking at the same time as
6 the witness, and the witness also is not waiting for the end of your
7 question to answer.
8 It's 10.30, and the Registrar has told me that for technical
9 reasons we need a 30-minute break, so I think this will help us cool
10 down, and we'll meet again at 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are back in session. Let me
14 ask Madam Registrar to go into private session. We are going to speak to
15 Mr. Seselj right now.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 5639-5651 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I first have to make an objection
24 or to tell you something, Judge.
25 I spoke to my assistants, who are at my disposal at all times,
1 and they are watching what is being broadcast over the internet, and they
2 realised that the Registry censored the first session again. The moment
3 I started pulling out of those documents out of my pocket, they went into
4 closed session. And you know that we were not in closed session at that
5 time. They censored much more of the material than the Court decided.
6 And you can check that. You can see that the moment I pull out those
7 papers out of my pocket, we move into closed session without your
9 I will continue with my questions for this Prosecution -- for
10 this protected witness.
11 Q. Mr. VS-33, when Natasha Kandic introduced you to journalist Dana
12 Tanasijevic from the Vreme newspaper, when was that?
13 A. I don't recall that.
14 Q. With Natasha Kandic and Dana Tanasijevic you arranged that you
15 would put a hand grenade on your windowsill and that you would tie the
16 safety pin to the window itself?
17 A. Well, this is pure fabrication. I really don't know how I could
18 respond to such lies. This makes no sense.
19 Q. And then Dana Tanasijevic had a press conference where he made an
20 accusation that through my wife, Jadranka Seselj, I sent a message to
21 some criminals that they should do that on my behalf; that was the setup.
22 A. Well, I cannot reply to something that is a pure lie. What you
23 said is pure fabrication. This is fabrication.
24 Q. And, Mr. VS-033, when did you throw a makeshift explosive device
25 on the Belgrade mosque, since you are an expert for that?
1 A. In 1992.
2 Q. Was it in December?
3 A. Yes, December, thereabouts. I don't know the exact month,
4 whether it was in December, but it was in 1992.
5 Q. And the police managed to identify you in 1996; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Could you please be so kind and put
8 document number 11 on the ELMO for the witness, and it should not be
9 broadcast for the public because it might lead to disclosing the identity
10 of this witness, because his name is mentioned in this document.
11 While we're waiting for this document to come up:
12 Q. You got training on how to handle explosives in the army; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Here we have a decision from the Administration for the
16 Suppression of Crime of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia. We have
17 the number and the date. The date is the 20th of April, 1996, and this
18 decision indicates that you were to be remanded in custody because there
19 were grounds for suspicion that you committed a crime qualified as
20 unauthorised purchase and carrying of explosives and ammunition. The
21 this is signed by an authorised official. We don't have to mention his
23 But is this an authentic document?
24 A. Yes, I think it is.
25 Q. Okay. Let us now move on to document number 2. This is while
1 they were still unaware of the fact that you threw this explosive device
2 on the mosque. I'm sorry, that's number 12. At the time when you threw
3 this bomb on the mosque, you were not a member of the Serbian Radical
4 Party and you had nothing to do with the party?
5 A. Yes, I had nothing to do with the party, but I was a member of
6 the Humanitarian Fund of Serbian Volunteers.
7 Q. Well, I'm not interested in that. You may have established this
8 fund or whatever?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Well, I'm not interested in that because that has nothing to do
11 with the Serbian Radical Party. This is a certificate for
12 temporarily-seized items issued by the Secretariat of the Interior in
13 Belgrade, that's the Belgrade Police Administration, the date is 19th of
14 April, 1996, and it is indicated here what was found in your apartment
15 when it was searched; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Well, we see 500 grams of plastic explosive, PEP 500, and we have
18 also the designations, PIG 8603 in its original packaging; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then one package of explosive, 100 grams; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 180 grams of black gunpowder, 3.53 metres of slow-burning fuse;
23 is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Four electric detonation fuses, is that right, eight detonation
1 fuses; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then 13 pieces of 7.62-calibre bullets for automatic rifle. We
4 don't have to read it to the end, but this was all that was found and
5 seized at your place. Is this an authentic document?
6 A. Yes, I think so.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Could we now move on to document
8 number 13.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, can I just ask you: These documents
10 appear to have been issued in 1996, and I believe the witness said that
11 the incident with the mosque took place in 1992, so in which way are
12 these documents related to the throwing of the makeshift explosive device
13 at the mosque in Belgrade in 1992?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, you may have mis-heard
15 this, but the witness confirmed that for three or four years, the police
16 was unable to identify him as the perpetrator, as the man who threw this
17 bomb at the Belgrade mosque. He was identified only in 1996. And you
18 will see all this is made quite specific in the documents that will
19 follow. I am working through this at this pace so that I would be able
20 to present all of those documents in brief to you. So the witness also
21 confirms that this has to do with this incident when bomb was thrown at
22 the mosque. Can he confirm that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this 1996 has nothing to do
24 with the mosque. This is what I had in my home.
25 MS. BIERSAY: It's not really an objection, it's just an
1 observation, that Mr. Seselj is not turning off his mic before the
2 witness responds.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness is lying once
4 again. You will see that all this has to do with this bomb-throwing
5 incident, first of all this decision to remand him in custody that I
6 presented first, then the certificate. Once he was taken into custody,
7 his apartment was searched. And now we have a request for an
8 investigation to be conducted from the public prosecutor's office in
9 Belgrade. We have the reference number, you can see it here. I don't
10 want to identify the case. The date is the 24th of April, 1996. And
11 here, in paragraph 2, we see the name of this witness, and we see his
12 accomplices. We will not be mentioning them.
13 And you can see here in this text that this is a crime qualified
14 as endangering security and fomenting national -- ethnic and religious
15 hatred. And this crime was committed in such a way that this man, with
16 another man, fashioned a makeshift explosive device, using plastic
17 explosive and fuses, that they wanted to activate and set in the mosque
18 yard or underneath the windows of the apartments or underneath the cars
19 owned by citizens of the FRY of Muslim faith or of Croatian ethnicity,
20 and you can see who stood guard as they did that. It is also noted that
21 explosions were caused that resulted in danger to the life of people and
22 property, large-scale damage to properties.
23 Q. Is that what it says?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then we have a description of what each of them did, and
1 under number 1 it stipulates the name of this witness and his
2 accomplices, and it says that on the 8th of December, 1992, at around
3 1830 hours, in Belgrade, Gospodar Jevrenova Street number 11, in the yard
4 of the Bajrakli mosque, owned by the Islamic religious community in
5 Belgrade, placed and activated -- planted and activated 500 grams of
6 plastic explosives, which resulted in the -- in damages to the mosque.
7 Number 2, on the 10th of September, 1993, at around 2330 hours,
8 in Belgrade, in Vojvode Milenka Street, at building number 19, in front
9 of the window to the flat, Abdurmahani Femije [phoen] was damaged on the
10 ground floor, and I would like to mention now that this is in Albanian,
11 they planted and activated 200 grams of explosives, which resulted in an
12 explosion and material damages to the flat and the building.
13 On the 1st of February, 1994, at around 2230 hours, in the
14 settlement called Visnjicka Banja, 110 Nova Street, at number 33, they
15 planted a -- some dynamite which was about 15 centimetres long, oblong in
16 shape, and a slow-burning fuse of 30 to 40 centimetres length, with a
17 detonation cap, under the car owned by Milorad Popovic, because they
18 thought it was a car belonging to some Siptar, and an explosion took
19 place, causing material damage to the vehicle, and thereby they committed
20 the act that they are being charged with.
21 And then under number 2, it says on the 27th of April, 1993, at
22 around 2040 hours, in Belgrade, in the 29th of November Street,
23 number 128, underneath a car used by Eminaj Januz, they placed an
24 explosive device made of a TNT charge of 250 grams and a slow-burning
25 fuse, about 40 centimetres in length, with a detonation cap. They
1 activated the cap, they activated the explosion, and this resulted in an
2 explosion and material damage to the vehicle.
3 Then iii on page 3 of this document, once again this witness and
4 an accomplice of his whose name I don't want to mention says:
5 "On the 26th of May, 1993, at around 2300 hours, in Belgrade, Pop
6 Stojan Street number 13, they planted and activated an explosive device
7 manufactured out of 350 grams of plastic explosives, a slow-burning fuse
8 of about 60 centimetres in length, with a detonation cap, capsule, in the
9 yard of the Catholic Church of St. Anton, which resulted in an explosion
10 and material damage to the church."
11 Then, under number 4, this witness, with his associates, is
12 referred to again, and then it says, On an unspecified today, beginning
13 with August 1993, they, in unauthorised fashion, procured and brought
14 from the battlefield to Belgrade a large quantity of explosives of great
15 destructive power."
16 And then we can skip over the next bit and go on to this witness,
17 where it says, "He procured and stored in his flat 600 grams of plastic
18 explosives, a package of 100 grams of industrial explosive, 180 grams of
19 the black type of explosive, three and a half metres of slow-burning
20 fuse, 12 detonation caps, and 30 pieces of bullets."
21 And then they recommend that an investigation be undertaken.
22 And we come to document 14. I don't know whether you'll be able
23 to see this, but it's a photograph of the explosives and weapons found
24 with this witness in illegal possession. He was found in illegal
25 possession of these items.
1 Is this an authentic document, this request for an investigation
2 to be conducted?
3 A. I think it is.
4 Q. Is this indeed a photograph of the explosives and weapons found
5 on your premises and the attending documents?
6 A. Well, this is the first time that I see this document, but
7 probably it is.
8 Q. Well, they searched your flat in your presence, didn't they, and
9 everything they found they put in one place and photographed it?
10 A. They didn't photograph it in my presence, but possibly it is,
11 because this is the first time I saw the photograph. I was arrested and
12 taken away.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
14 MS. BIERSAY: I apologise for keeping to interrupt, but
15 Mr. Seselj is not turning off his microphone before the witness responds.
16 Perhaps we can ask the witness to wait until Mr. Seselj has turned off
17 the light before responding, it might help everyone.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, wait a few
19 seconds before answering.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Let's move on to document number 15
21 now, please.
22 Q. This is a decision by the investigating judge of the 2nd
23 Municipal Court in Belgrade, which, on the 22nd of April, 1996, for you
24 and an accomplice of you, issued a sentence of detention. Is this an
25 authentic document?
1 A. I think it is, yes.
2 Q. All right. We're not going to dwell on that. You've made things
3 easier for me, and I'm grateful to you for that. We can move on to
4 document number 16.
5 This is a note on the interview of the accused, conducted with
6 the accused, and we can see your name there and your particulars. And
7 then on page 2 of that document, we can see when the interview started.
8 Let's not waste time on those facts. But, anyway, paragraph number 3
9 shows us that you admitted to everything, because you say all the
10 allegations in the report are absolutely correct that you read out to me,
11 and I don't want to repeat all the points, but everything is correct, as
12 it says in the document. And let me say, first of all, that in view of
13 the fact that I spent a long time in the war and was trained while I was
14 still in the army, I was trained in explosive -- handling of explosive
15 devices, but I am revolted with what I experienced on the battleground
16 from the Muslims and Croats," and in all these cases which you've read
17 out to me, "and in certain others with my friend," and then you state the
18 name, "simply in order to intimidate the Muslims and Croats, I planted
19 explosive devices. But I would always give thought prior to that that I
20 should not harm anybody, but just instill fear in them, knowing exactly
21 how much explosives and what kind of explosives I was to use and plant,
22 and where and when."
23 Then there is something that is illegible.
24 " ... just to instill fear in them and cause what I call a sound
25 effect, the sound effects."
1 So that is your first statement to the Investigating Judge, and
2 it says here on the third page of the document what the name of that
3 Investigating Judge was, and you were there in the presence of your
4 lawyers. Is this an authentic document?
5 A. Well, probably I did give a statement to the Investigating Judge,
6 but I've never seen this document before. This is the first time I'm
7 looking at it.
8 Q. Well, I'm showing it to you now. Better late than never. You
9 see how pedantic I am and precise? I'm not lying about anything, I am
10 just presenting the truth.
11 A. Yes, but this is the first time that I am looking at this
12 document. Probably it's all adequate in there. But as I say, this is
13 the first time that I see this document. I haven't had a chance to see
14 it before. And when they took me to the Investigating Judge, I was
15 brought by the police. I made a statement and the police took me away.
16 So that is why I was not able to see this document. This is the first
17 time I am looking at it, but I did give a statement to the
18 Investigating Judge. It was a long time ago, so I can't remember exactly
19 what I said, but I can see that my signature is there, so quite possibly
20 that's right.
21 Q. You signed every page, did you not?
22 A. Well, I can see that on page 1 and 2, there's my signature there.
23 Yes, it is my signature, yes.
24 Q. Your signature is also on page 3. Take a look. First of all,
25 you have your signature and then the signature of the
1 Investigating Judge. Have you seen that?
2 A. Yes, that's right, that is my signature.
3 Q. Fine. Then we can move on and not dwell on that.
4 So when you appeared before the Investigating Judge for the first
5 time, you admitted to everything, and then you looked at some exculpatory
6 circumstances, saying that you're such a good explosives expert that you
7 just wished to produce a sound effect and to sow the seeds of fear rather
8 than to kill someone; right? That's what you said at the time?
9 A. Well, I said something in that context, along those lines. I
10 don't know what it was exactly that I said, because I'd been arrested,
11 I'd been taken into custody, so I don't remember what I actually said.
12 But, yes, along those lines, roughly, as it says there, yes.
13 Q. Now we have something new, a new element. Let's look at document
14 17, and here we have a new report on your interview, a record of your
15 interview as a suspect, as an accused -- as an accused, rather, and we
16 have your name there with your particulars, as was found in the previous
17 document, but now something strange happens here, because you admit for
18 the first time -- you admitted everything to begin with, and now you
19 don't want to admit anything else, you don't want to repeat your
20 admission. So let's look at the portion I've underlined on page 2. Here
21 is what you say here:
22 "I wish to use my right under Article 218 of the Code of Criminal
23 Proceedings that was read out to me, and I want to have a defence by
24 silence. As I was told that all the proof and evidence can go against
25 me, I state once again that I wish to have a defence by silence."
1 Now, what happened in the meantime? Instead of the previous
2 frank and honest admission, what happens now? You're now availing
3 yourself to remain silent whereas you admitted everything beforehand;
4 what does that mean?
5 A. Well, I'm looking at this document for the first time. It is
6 indeed my signature, but it is the first time that I see the document.
7 Let's see who the Judge is.
8 Q. You don't have to give us the name of the Judge.
9 A. Well, it doesn't say the name.
10 Q. It does on page 1.
11 A. Where does it say on the first page?
12 Q. On the first page, left-hand corner, it says who the
13 Investigating Judge was, he changed. There was one Investigating Judge
14 first of all who interviewed and then you admitted everything. Now
15 there's the second Judge and you enforce the right to remain silent as a
16 defence, you no longer wish to admit anything.
17 A. Well, I did sign this but I can't remember anything.
18 Q. Oh come on.
19 A. Well, I didn't defend myself with the right to remain silent. I
20 served a prison sentence for what I had done.
21 Q. Wait a minute. You tried to escape from prison later on. Don't
22 be impatient. We'll take it step by step. Listen, I remember you don't
23 this, but you do remember everything that happened many years before
24 that, as instructed by the Prosecutor.
25 A. Well, maybe it was following advice from my lawyer that I signed
1 something. I was an accused then, so I could lie, I could avail myself
2 of the right to remain silent, just as you can rely now.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please move forward,
4 Mr. Seselj.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's move on to the next document,
7 Q. Why would I use the right to remain silent? I'm a Chetnik
8 vojvoda, I'm an honourable man, that's what that means.
9 Now, this is number 18, the next document, once again you
10 appeared before the Investigating Judge again on the 14th of May, 1996.
11 Turn the page, please.
12 Now, what you do here now, you've started denying some crimes
13 here now, and then you say the allegations made are not correct, that
14 allegedly "I," and you mentioned another man's name, that "on the 23rd of
15 May, 1993, we activated an explosive device in the yard of the Catholic
16 Church of St. Anton. I'd like to mention that I never participated with
17 that man in planting any explosive devices, and it is quite certain that
18 I didn't do that in the Catholic Church yard. What I did do I owned up
19 to. I especially want to stress that I took strict care and attention
20 that nobody should be harmed, because I'm an expert in explosive devices,
21 and had I wished to inflict any harm on anyone, I could have done that
22 easily. All I wanted was to create sound effects."
23 Now, although you admitted to having planted a bomb or thrown a
24 bomb at the St. Anton's Church and then remained silent, you now deny
25 everything because you thought that the police could not prove
1 everything, so you chose to deny the fact that in the courtyard of the
2 Catholic Church of St. Anton, you actually activated a bomb?
3 A. May I be allowed to respond?
4 Q. Well, of course. This is my question to you.
5 A. Since you know full well the police procedure with anybody
6 arrested in Serbia, it's no strange thing that I did this, because they
7 asked me to admit to your involvement in the act, and we were beaten for
8 two days over there by the police. So when you're beaten, of course
9 you're going to own up to anything you're told to own up to, to prevent
10 them from beating me further and breaking my ribs and kidneys. But they
11 wanted us to own up to your involvement in that, and you didn't know
12 about that, did you?
13 Q. That means that even under beatings, you refused to involve me,
14 whereas Natasha Kandic and the Prosecution did not beat you, but they
15 offered you money, financial inducement. So you were ready to do that
16 for money? You weren't ready to do it for beatings, but you were ready
17 to do it for money?
18 A. That's not true.
19 Q. Let's move on.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down, please?
21 This is much too fast.
22 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now let's look at the next document. This is proof that you
24 escaped from prison or tried to. It is from the Padinska Skela
25 correction facility in Belgrade, where it says that on the 13th of
1 January, 2000, you escaped from serving your prison sentence. You were
2 allowed to go home to visit your family, but you failed to return. Do
3 you remember that escape from prison?
4 Now, escaping from prison isn't a crime where we come from; isn't
5 that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Well, they could have just put you in a solitary confinement
9 A. Well, that's what they did. They did put me in a solitary
10 confinement cell.
11 Q. Let's move on to number 20 because I don't have much time.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that the
13 speaker be asked to slow down.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Both of you, the interpreters are having great
15 difficulties in following the speed of your speech, and it goes for both
16 you, Mr. Seselj, and for the witness. Thanks.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you tell me how much time I
18 have left, because I'd like to go through all the documents.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar, how much time do
20 we have left, please?
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have 19 minutes left.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. So this is an indictment that was issued against you by the
25 District Public Prosecutor's Office in Belgrade on the 3rd of June, 1996.
1 Your name is mentioned here, and there is another co-accused. And
2 everything that was noted in the criminal report is repeated here, all
3 the crimes; the mosque, the bombs that were planted under the cars and
4 under the windows of the apartment owned by this Albanian person, then
5 all the stuff that was found at your place. So this is the indictment
6 that was issued against you.
7 Do you remember this indictment?
8 A. Well, I assume that that is it. I'm not sure. I never signed
9 anything of the sort, but I assume that it is, yes.
10 Q. You should know that you do not sign the indictment. You are
11 served with the indictment, and you just signed the accompanying paper.
12 A. Well, we don't have faxes in prison. The police comes in, gives
13 it to you, and you put it in the pocket. That's how it's done in Serbia
14 so that I probably had this in my possession, but -- well, I don't know
15 exactly what it is, but I probably should have received an indictment if
16 I ended up in prison.
17 Q. Please, please, sir, Witness VS-033, I did time in Serbian jails,
18 not for terrorism, not for crime, but for political crimes. Every time
19 the prison guards bring you a document from the court, from the
20 Prosecutor's Office, you receive a blue sheet of paper where you sign
21 confirming that you received it. So you don't sign the document itself,
22 you sign a blue piece of paper. It's as if every time you receive the
23 summons, you do the same thing.
24 Please, don't go on attacking the Serbian judicial system. If
25 anyone has the right to do that, because of everything they did to me
1 over the past decades, it's me.
2 So now we have document number 21. It's the beginning of the
3 trial. Could we please have it all on the ELMO, just to have a chance to
4 look at it.
5 So this is the record of the trial. We see, on the next page,
6 the basic formalities are observed, and then the first accused was
7 questioned, and at page 4 of this document, that's page 23 of this set of
8 documents, we can see what you, yourself, stated in court, as the accused
9 was examined.
10 In our legal system, once the trial begins, the accused are the
11 first to give statements, and then witnesses are called and evidence is
12 adduced. Here, in this record, it is indicated that you received the
13 indictment that you now don't remember, that you were able to understand
14 the contents, and that you were presenting your defence in the presence
15 of your defence counsel. I will not be giving his name, but I know him
17 It is stated for the record that the accused presented his
18 defence as he did in the record of the interview with the
19 Investigative Judge on the 22nd of April, 1996; is that right? So it is
20 stated for the record, and let us now see what statement we're talking
21 about, what interview we're talking about, the date is the 22nd of April.
22 That would be the one where you confess to everything. So first you
23 confess to everything before an Investigating Judge, then you avail
24 yourself of the right to remain silent, then in May you denied some
25 elements. But faced with everything that the Prosecution had against
1 you, you now confirm the first statement that you gave to the
2 Investigating Judge, and you go on to say that the crime listed under --
3 in count 1, and that is the bomb at the mosque, that you did it in order
4 to fulfill the wishes of your comrade, Vlada -- well, I'm not going to
5 mention his last name. But, at any rate, somebody made this last wish,
6 the dying wish to you. And then you go on to say who was your accomplice
7 or co-perpetrator, and then you confirm that the quantity of weapons
8 listed in the certificate was indeed found at your place. And then you
10 "I explain all that by the fact that at that time I believed that
11 it was much better for me to cause sound effects by my acts than to have
12 a massacre in Belgrade."
13 So your justification for your act is that it was better for you
14 to cause controlled explosions at the mosque and at Catholic churches
15 than for somebody else, who didn't know how to do it, to do it in such a
16 way that it resulted in such a massacre. So this was your justification,
17 the way you justified your acts before the Court; is that so, Mr. VS-033?
18 A. Yes, that's what I say -- said, probably.
19 Q. And then the next sentence:
20 "I believe that all kinds of things would have happened had it
21 not been for me causing those sound effects, because the wounded people
22 were coming in from the frontline and they were visited by a number of
23 volunteers and they talked about all kinds of things."
24 So you are saying that your bomb attacks, your terrorist acts,
25 resulted in saving the mosque, the Catholic Church, and the cars and this
1 apartment owned by this Albanian man, because had somebody else had done
2 it, it would have been much worse. So you did it, and those others who
3 may have wanted to do that no longer wanted to do that because this had
4 already been done. Is this the gist of what you said?
5 A. Well, I was visited by my lawyer in jail, and I had to consult
6 him about what I would say before the Court. It says here that I was
7 represented by my Defence counsel.
8 Q. Does it mean that you were influenced by your Defence counsel
9 when you said that?
10 A. Well, I don't remember. I might say that I was under the
11 influence of my Defence counsel, but we discussed the act. He came to
12 visit me while I was in custody during the investigation.
13 Q. Fair enough. But you now mention the blowing up of a bus in the
14 last passage?
15 A. Well, it says in the same passage that my lawyer silenced me and
16 told me to sit down and to keep quiet.
17 Q. Well, it's not mentioned here.
18 A. Well, it is recorded here.
19 Q. Well, it may have happened, but it is not reflected in the
20 record. But at any rate, if your lawyer did tell you to keep quiet, in
21 the last passage you talk about blowing up some bus, that some bus should
22 be destroyed, saying it would be better for a bus to be destroyed than
23 for it to fall in the enemy hands, so what are you talking about?
24 A. Well, they might have recorded this in that manner. What I said
25 was that we volunteers had had grenades when we went to the frontline.
1 This was so that we could blow up the whole bus and ourselves if we fell
2 into the enemy hands. The recording clerk probably noted this down in
3 this manner to keep it shorter. And then my lawyer told me to keep
4 quiet, and I never said anything else in front of the Judges.
5 Q. I have a feeling that your lawyer told you to keep quiet and
6 then -- so lest you should incriminate yourself any further, and that's
7 why it remained unclarified, what happened to this bus that was blown up.
8 MS. BIERSAY: I'm not sure where Mr. Seselj is going with this
9 line of questioning, but to the extent that this violates the
10 attorney-client privilege ...
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Judges, there is no
12 confidentiality. I think everything is clear to you, and I'm not
13 mentioning the name of this lawyer. I can bring you his statement here
14 tomorrow, but because I respect the lawyer-client privilege, I will not
15 be asking him to do that. I know this man, but I'm just trying to bring
16 to your attention that there is this interesting incident in which the
17 bus was blown up, but we don't know what that was all about.
18 Could we move on to the next page.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What year are we talking about?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the 1996 trial for the
21 crimes committed in 1992, 1993 and 1994. So that's in continuity.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] We are talking about the fact
25 that you allegedly took part in placing an explosive inside a bus, to
1 destroy that bus. What I wanted to know: That particular event, the
2 last one we spoke about, what year did that take place in?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained to the Court in Serbia
4 how we went to the front lines and how we had those explosive devices or,
5 rather, hand grenades that we were to use to blow up the bus if the bus
6 were to fall into the enemy hands, because we volunteers, we were not
7 armed as we travelled to the front line. We were supposed to blow up the
8 bus in order to prevent ourselves falling into the enemy hands alive.
9 Now, I'm not clear why this thing was reflected in the record in
10 this way. This is what I explained to the Judges when they asked me how
11 I knew to handle the explosives. And then I went on to explain to them
12 that we had those hand grenades as we went to the front line on the bus.
13 I don't know why this was reflected in this way.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] All I wanted to know was what
15 event you were talking about -- or, rather, the events you're talking
16 about, what date? What is the timeline for those events, the
17 battlefields, et cetera? Are we talking about the year when the war was
18 on or not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the bus, that was in 1991.
20 That's when we had those hand grenades, because the Judges were asking me
21 questions when I was the accused in that case.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, it doesn't say here in
23 the record "hand grenades," but it says "explosives," and the recording
24 clerk cannot make such a mistake, he cannot write down "hand grenades" if
25 he hears "explosives," and the other way around. I would just like to
1 bring that to your attention.
2 In the course of this trial, we don't need to read through the
3 whole record --
4 Q. -- you were sentenced to three years in prison, and the statement
5 of reasons in the judgement explained why. You received that at a later
7 Could we now please have document number 23 up on the screen.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 22.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, let me take this advantage
10 of this pause to ask you a question, Witness.
11 What is the Serbian Volunteer Humanitarian Fund, exactly?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time I was going to
13 this fund, it was run by Dobrila and Milos Kustudic. They were also
14 members of the -- or he was also of a member of the Radical Party. And
15 on Saturdays and Sundays, we went there to help the wounded, to take
16 fruit and cigarettes to them. They were hospitalised. There were many
17 of them hospitalised all over Serbia, and nobody came to visit them,
18 nobody took care of them, so that's what we did. We went to visit them,
19 to visit the wounded volunteers and to help them.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. So it was a humanitarian
21 organisation rather than one involved in military operations?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Humanitarian organisation.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, there's
24 something I don't understand. You said that you left the Serbian Radical
25 Party at a given date. Can you remind me what date that was, please?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That was in 1992.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And then you were part of this
3 humanitarian organisation, so if I've understood you correctly, but I
4 want you to confirm this, if that is the case, so simultaneously you
5 organised these attacks, using explosives, so I would like to know on
6 behalf of whom -- what type of organisation you belonged to, if at the
7 same time if perhaps you were a member of a unit of volunteers under a
8 different organisation, since you had left the Serbian Radical Party.
9 There's something in the way you've told this that I don't understand.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This humanitarian organisation
11 shares the premises with the Serbian Chetnik Movement at the Palilula
12 Municipality on Preradoviceva Street. At that time, it shared premises,
13 and both the humanitarian organisation, the Serbian Volunteers, and the
14 Serbian Chetnik Movement were in the same office.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?
16 Q. Do you know who gave those state-owned premise for the use of
17 those various organisations? Who was it that allocated those premises?
18 A. Probably the municipality.
19 Q. So an organisation gets registered, makes an application to the
20 municipality. The municipality senses the public benefit and then
21 allocates some offices for the use of that organisation?
22 A. Probably.
23 Q. So now we've come to this judgement against you. That's document
24 22. This is a lengthy judgement. It contains a detailed description of
25 everything that you did. There's no need, I hope -- do you recognise
1 this judgement? There is no need for us to quote from it, because that
2 would be just repetitive. This is all those elements that were contained
3 in the criminal report and in the trial record. It says here that you
4 were sentenced to three years in prison. Could you confirm that and
5 confirm that this judgement is authentic and your accomplice was
6 sentenced to two years?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So there's no need for us to dwell on this document. Your
9 Defence counsel appealed against this judgement; is that so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then a ruling on the appeal filed by your Defence counsel,
12 the Supreme Court of Serbia. On the 25th of December, 1997. You were
13 present there at the session of the Supreme Court?
14 A. No, I was not present.
15 Q. Well, it says here that you were. It says here that you and your
16 co-accused and your defence counsel were present there on the 25th of
17 December, 1997.
18 A. Well, yes, that was at the end of the investigation so that's
19 probably when it was held.
20 Q. Well, fine. The Supreme Court did grant some points of appeal of
21 your accomplice but your -- and his sentence was commuted, but your
22 sentence remained as it was, your appeal was dismissed; is that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So there's no need for us to dwell on this anymore.
25 I have a document here that shows that the government of the
1 Republic of Serbia, as early as 2006, at the request of the Ministry of
2 Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, obtained this document, which
3 was then sent to the Federal Council for Cooperation with The Hague
4 Tribunal. I have no evidence of that, but it should have been submitted
5 to the Prosecution at the Tribunal, because this only proves that the
6 whole procedure was complied with in the disclosure of these documents.
7 The OTP did submit three potentially incriminating documents
8 against you, but I don't have any evidence of that.
9 Let us move on to document number 25. This is a file from a
10 visit to the scene. This was done by the forensic technicians section
11 from the Secretariat of the Interior in Belgrade. This is not very
12 clear, but I hope that you will, I hope, recognise this is a
13 reconstruction. You're showing how you went to the church of St. Anthony
14 in the Pop Stojan Street, number 13, how the bomb was planted, and then
15 you indicate the entrance to the church where you actually activated the
16 explosive device, and then the next page.
17 Do you remember this reconstruction of the incident at the scene?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. So you do confirm this?
20 A. Yes. Well, the police put me in the car and just took me there.
21 Q. On the next page, again you show the yard of the church where you
22 planted the bomb, and then you show how you lobbed the device over the
23 fence. You can see that your hand is up in the air. You demonstrated
24 that to the police.
25 The next page, you can see a photograph of a building in Vojvoda
1 Milanka [phoen] Street, where you planted this explosive device
2 underneath the window of this Albanian man? Do you remember that? You
3 here at the scene, do remember that you were showing that to the police,
4 that this was when this photograph was taken?
5 A. It was a long time ago, but probably, yes, they took me there in
6 order for me to show them. They handcuffed me, put me in a car. They
7 took me there, and there on the spot they took my handcuffs off so they
8 could take pictures of me showing all this.
9 Q. On the photograph at the bottom of the page, you are bending down
10 and indicating where precisely you placed the explosive. Your accomplice
11 is there with you, but as these photographs are not very clear, it won't
12 reveal his identity.
13 Will you please turn the page now. This is again the entrance to
14 the house in Gospadare Jenema [phoen] Street, number 13, where you put
15 together the explosive device. Do you remember this, showing them this?
16 A. Yes, yes, I do.
17 Q. And the photograph at the lower half of the page is -- shows you
18 indicating where you placed an explosive in front of the only mosque in
19 Belgrade, the mosque there, Bajrakli Mosque?
20 A. Probably that's how it was. The photograph is not very clear,
21 but, yes, that's how it was.
22 Q. Well, these photographs were faxed to me, they come from the
23 court records, so I was unable to get hold of the original photographs,
24 because had your testimony been announced to me in time, I would have
25 been able to obtain these original photographs.
1 The next page, the first photograph, here you are showing the
2 path between the houses along which you went to the house in Nova Street,
3 number 33. The street was 118th Nova, and the house number was 33. Do
4 you remember this, when you crossed the meadow?
5 A. Well, the photograph is not clear, but I know I was taken -- I
6 and Gajic were taken to show this.
7 Q. The photograph underneath, you're showing the place where you
8 stood and where there was a car covered by a canvass tarpaulin, where you
9 planted the explosive device. You thought the vehicle belonged to an
10 Albanian. In fact, it belonged to a Serb, but terrorism is terrorism.
11 Do you remember this?
12 If you don't recall, we'll move on.
13 The next page, please. Here you're showing the police from where
14 you came to the parking lot in front of Sutjeska Company on 22nd of
15 November Street; is that right? Is this the parking lot?
16 A. It looks like it. It probably is.
17 Q. The photograph in the lower half of the page, you show where the
18 Renault car was parked underneath which you planted an explosive device;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Next page, please. Here you're indicating the place and the
22 manner in which you planted and activated explosive device under a
23 Renault car on the 29th of November Street. You're bending down here,
24 showing how you did it; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. Please turn to the next page.
2 A. But --
3 Q. Here you're showing the place where a device exploded which you
4 threw into the yard of the Church of St. Anthony on Pop Stojan Street; is
5 that right?
6 A. Probably, but I can't see this image very well.
7 Q. And we saw in your third statement to the Investigating Judge,
8 you attempted to deny that you had thrown a hand grenade into the yard of
9 St. Anthony's Church, but here you're showing how you did all this. So
10 you lied to the Investigating Judge on that occasion?
11 A. Well, in Serbia, when the police take you somewhere, you can't
12 say anything. If they had taken me somewhere else, where a crime had
13 been committed, I would have had to show them that I did it.
14 Q. Oh, Mr. VS-033, please don't interrupt me. I spent time in
15 various Yugoslav prisons, eight times, and it wasn't as bad as you're
16 trying to make out. You're trying to make out you were in a prison run
17 by Idi Amin or Bokassa. You're here showing what you did. You confessed
18 to your crime, you admitted it, you're admitting it now, so what is it
19 that the police coerced from you? Nothing.
20 A. Well, what I'm trying to say is that had they taken me to other
21 places, I would have had to say I'd done it, because the police are the
22 supreme authority in Serbia.
23 Q. Are you denying that you committed any of these crimes?
24 A. No, I'm not denying anything now. I'm just trying to explain
25 what the system is like in Serbia. I didn't deny it. Yes, this is a
1 picture showing me indicating what was done.
2 Q. Well, let's not discuss the system in Serbia now. On these
3 photographs, we see you showing how you committed crimes, and you
4 actually did commit these crimes? There's not a single detail here
5 showing that you were taken somewhere where you had not committed a
6 crime, at least not in this file; isn't that right?
7 A. Okay, yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, please be kind enough to tell
9 me how much time I have left. I have two important matters to deal with,
10 so I have to distribute my time properly.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, time is almost up. You
12 have 60 seconds left, so please come to your conclusion.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] If I may put one more question.
14 Q. Even after this crime you committed, for which you were convicted
15 and sentenced, I received information from the Office of the National
16 Council for Cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the
17 former Yugoslavia, and the number of the document is listed here. It was
18 sent on the 12th of February, 2008, and ex officio I asked this National
19 Council to inspect your criminal record, and they informed me, under item
20 8 of that decision, first, that you had been convicted for these crimes,
21 and, secondly, that you then committed a number of crimes, including
22 forging a document. You forged a personal identity card.
23 The OTP has disclosed to me a document showing that you had
24 forged a personal identity card. And then you committed another crime
25 under -- various crimes, Article 166, Article 171, and all these crimes
1 that you committed after 1996 were forgiven you [as interpreted].
2 I have a document here disclosed to me by the OTP, saying that
3 the Statue of Limitations was applied to some of them, and all this was
4 because you're testifying in these proceedings against me; is that
6 A. No, it's not correct.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes she did not catch the
8 crimes that the witness allegedly committed.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question, a
10 follow-up question.
11 Unless we were wrong, because of course we could make mistakes,
12 but we had understood that you left the Serbian Radical Party and its
13 volunteers in 1992, and we're finding out a document coming from your
14 country's judicial authority which states that for several years, 1992,
15 1993, 1994, you committed a number of attacks using explosives. The
16 dates are in document 18, page 2; the summer of December 8th, 1992; April
17 27, 1993; September 10, 1993; February 1st, 1994.
18 Any reasonable judge would wonder who you committed these very
19 serious acts for, on behalf of whom you committed these serious acts.
20 These were perpetrated against religious places, mosques or churches,
21 against property, cars and so on.
22 So did you act on your own behalf or were you acting on behalf of
23 some kind of organisation?
24 A. At that time, I continued socialising and associating with
25 volunteers from the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the Radical Party, and
1 anyone who comes back from the war theatre suffers from a syndrome, and
2 this syndrome remains there for a long time.
3 The state didn't want to integrate us into society and help us.
4 In fact, it hindered us, and we had to struggle with the syndrome on our
5 own. And some people never got cured of the syndrome.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is your explanation? Very
7 well. But my question was more specific.
8 Did you act within an organisation or on your own behalf, being
9 motivated by a post-traumatic syndrome that was a consequence of which
10 you lived through in the war?
11 A. Throwing a hand grenade on a mosque was because a friend of mine
12 had stated the day before that it was his last wish. I didn't even know
13 there was a mosque in Belgrade until he told me that in hospital. And
14 that evening, he died. Nurse Ruska informed us that Vlada had died and
15 that had been his dying wish, so we fulfilled it. We threw the hand
16 grenade, not into the mosque itself but into the yard of the mosque. We
17 didn't throw it inside, but into the yard, in order to avoid injuring
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seemed that this syndrome
20 had lingered for quite a while. The search that was carried out in your
21 home some years later where an arsenal was found, because earlier we read
22 about what was in that arsenal. So why did you keep all this in your own
23 home, given the fact -- you see, given the fact that this was found out
24 in 1996?
25 A. Yes. Little by little, in time -- over time, I brought it back
1 from the war front and it was in my flat. And when the police entered my
2 flat to arrest me, they found all these things.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you contacted the OTP
4 following the invitation made by Mr. Petkovic, did you tell the OTP about
5 all this, i.e., that you had planted explosive devices for years and so
6 forth and so on? Did you tell them everything, did you do a mia copa?
7 A. Yes, I told them everything sincerely and honestly. I told them
8 I had done all this. The first time an indictment was raised against me,
9 I've lost it now, I don't have it anymore, but it listed everything I had
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.
12 Tell me where you work. Could you tell me whether today you have
13 a job?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment, I am not doing
15 anything, I'm not employed. Until recently, I was a tinsmith, and I
16 worked as a private entrepreneur on construction sites.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Up until which year did you
18 have a job?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the end of 1997. No, sorry,
20 2007. I do apologise, 2007, until December. It's seasonal work. In
21 summer, there's work. In winter, there isn't so much work. There is
22 some, but far less. This is work you have to do outdoors, on roofs. You
23 have to do various kinds of pipes and ducts on the roof and on the
24 facade. So when it's snowing or raining, you can't work.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So for three months, you've
1 been without a job. Well, what do you live on?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am under the protection of the
3 protection team.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is this protection team?
5 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, perhaps it might be a good time to go
6 into private session.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move to a
8 private session.
9 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, do you have any
1 MS. BIERSAY: I do, Your Honour. I am uncertain whether the
2 Court would like me to do it now or after the break.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a break, and we'll
4 resume at 1.00, and we'll have 45 minutes left.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll wait for
8 Mr. Seselj.
9 It is now time for the redirect.
10 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 I intend to cover three brief topics. One, the issue of the
12 grenade and the bus, the conviction for recent -- recent convictions of
13 the witness, and then, thirdly, asking some questions related to threats.
14 And for that third topic, I will request that we move into private
16 Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:
17 Q. Mr. Witness, you received some questions about grenades related
18 to a bus. Do you recall those questions? Yes or no, please.
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. Do you recall the occasion on which you had grenades on a bus?
21 A. That was in 1991, when we were setting out to Western Slavonia.
22 Radonoci [phoen] distributed hand grenades to us in case we were taken
23 prisoner on the way, because he was the only one who had a pistol. The
24 rest of us were unarmed. And it was our duty to blow up the bus,
25 together with the volunteers, if we were captured so as to avoid falling
1 into enemy hands alive.
2 Q. And, Mr. Witness, did you describe that occasion in paragraph 15
3 of your 2006 statement to the ICTY? And for your reference, you have the
4 statements in front of you.
5 A. In what paragraph?
6 Q. Paragraph 15 of the 2006.
7 A. Yes, that's what I was referring to in paragraph 15.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Seselj asked you some questions relating to the issue of
9 a forged document. Do you recall that question; yes or no?
10 A. Yes, I recall it.
11 Q. When did you possess that forged document or ID? Do you recall
12 the year that you possessed it?
13 A. I think it was in the year 2000. It was around the year 2000. I
14 had a pistol and an ID which I found and I put my picture on it, because
15 I was going to Montenegro and I wanted to have it in case I was checked.
16 I wanted to have some sort of document on me, because at that time I was
17 supposed to be serving a prison sentence, but I was at large.
18 Q. Have you been to court and received a judgement with respect to
19 that forged identification?
20 A. The Statue of Limitations applied, it's seven years, because I
21 hid from the police for seven, seven and a half years. And as I went
22 before the Investigating Judge, I was issued with a decision stating that
23 the Statue of Limitations applied to that offence. And later on, I was
24 sentenced to four years, but I was on provisional release, because the
25 prosecutor indicted me for a false ID. And I went to court and I was
1 sentenced to four years in prison, but this was -- I was on provisional
2 release. It was a suspended sentence.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, before we move into
4 private session.
5 Judges, I feel that you have to intervene. How was this witness
6 available to the OTP in 2004, in 2006, when he was not available to the
7 Serbian police? From 2000 to 2007, he was inaccessible to the Serbian
8 police, but he was accessible to the OTP of The Hague Tribunal. I feel
9 that you have to clarify this ex officio.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is exactly what
11 spoke to my mind when I heard you. You were sentenced to four years in
12 jail, obviously, and you were -- you escaped this. A fugitive. Now,
13 there's a Statue of Limitations which has applied. I believe that in
14 your country the Statue of Limitations is three years or something, but I
15 have to check that.
16 So when you arrived at the Tribunal with the investigators in
17 2004, were you still wanted?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hadn't been sentenced to four
19 years in prison at that time. I knew that the police would be looking
20 for me because of the pistol and the false ID, so I hid in order for the
21 Statue of Limitations to apply, because I hadn't been in contact with the
22 Investigating Judge. I contacted the ITP [as interpreted] through
23 Ljubisa Petkovic. He arranged my contact with the investigators of
24 The Hague Tribunal.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you were in contact
1 with The Hague investigators, were you still wanted by the police of your
2 country, and did the investigator know about this?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I told them.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did he give you guarantees?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't. I just made the
6 statement and went on my way.
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. When did you receive the four years probation for having the
9 forged ID?
10 A. A month ago. I'm not sure of the exact day, I don't have the
11 document with me, but it was a month ago. That's when I was sentenced to
12 four years, and it was a suspended sentence.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Judges, this was not
14 dealt with either during the examination in chief or the
15 cross-examination, but the OTP should provide an answer to the following:
16 If this witness was previously convicted, how can his sentence be a
17 suspended one when this is not his first offence? Suspended sentences
18 are handed down to people who have committed an offence for the first
19 time, not for repeat offenders. So let this be clarified.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Biersay.
21 MS. BIERSAY: I'm not in a position to clarify that. I'm not an
22 expert on Serbian law. We disclosed these varied convictions and arrests
23 to Mr. Seselj I believe on Monday, so he was well aware, and he, in his
24 cross-examination, ended with addressing the issue of the forged ID, and
25 that's why I'm clarifying it in redirect.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please resume.
2 MS. BIERSAY: If we could please move to private session at this
3 time, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 5691-5703 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are in open
9 session. Tomorrow, Mr. Mundis and Ms. Biersay, we will be devoting the
10 session to videos, so you have handed over all of the scripts for the
11 videos, and we shall proceed as last time. We'll look at the video.
12 Mr. Seselj will make his comments, if there are any, and then we go on to
13 the next video, and so on and so forth.
14 Is that what we're going to do tomorrow, Mr. Mundis?
15 MR. MUNDIS: It is indeed, Mr. President. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you just tell me when we're
17 sitting tomorrow, in the morning or the afternoon?
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, tomorrow the hearing will
19 be in the afternoon. I can't remember whether it's a quarter past 2.00
20 or quarter to 3.00. No, it is 2.15 until 6.30. Yes, I can see the
21 assistant nodding.
22 So 2.15 tomorrow afternoon. We could have had the hearing in the
23 morning, but unfortunately my fellow Judges will be in another case and
24 that's why we will be sitting in the afternoon. So apart from the
25 witness, we shall all be meeting again here in the afternoon.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of April,
3 2008, at 2.15 p.m.