1 Thursday, 17 April 2008
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 6202-6255 redacted. Closed session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is
20 opened. The open session is now re-opened. This session will be devoted
21 on administrative or housekeeping matters, and I believe that
22 Mr. Marcussen wanted to intervene. I don't know who wishes to take the
23 floor from the Prosecution.
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
25 First, I was asked to just raise one logistical matter that came
1 out of today's testimony, just to remind everyone that I think there was
2 an indication that Your Honours would decide on the admission of
3 MFI P376, which is under seal, after the cross-examination, but that's
4 not while I'm here. It's just a logistical matter I wanted to point out.
5 I'm here to address Your Honours about next week's witnesses.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but the
7 Trial Chamber will render a decision on P376. But before that, I would
8 like to address a question to Mr. Seselj. We won't be talking about
9 witnesses or documents. I can raise these questions in open session.
10 Mr. Seselj, you've introduced or submitted a certain amount of
11 documents. The documents that you've submitted, would you like these
12 documents to be admitted into evidence, tendered, or not?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not tendering
14 these documents at all. I am deeply convinced that you will not accept a
15 single word of the last witness's testimony as true, so there is no
16 reason to burden the record. And I would really be happy were you to
17 accept his entire testimony as truth. That would really suit me.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 So I noticed that you've shown this document that did not have a
20 translation, and I believe that some of those documents were translated
21 only. Would you please be so kind, when you know that some documents are
22 translated, to submit them or to ask the Registrar to give us English
23 copies so that we can follow at the same time.
24 Yesterday, I noticed that one of the documents that you have
25 shown was translated. Unfortunately, the Prosecutor also did not hand us
1 that document. He had it, but we didn't know. So that's only a
2 technical matter.
3 If you have documents that are translated into English, if you
4 wish to submit these documents, would you please hand us those documents
5 that are in English.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if my memory serves
7 me well, I submitted over 30 documents, classified into four groups. Out
8 of these, five or six were already in the possession of the OTP, and they
9 put it in that binder of theirs. I assume all these documents have
10 translations into English. I've seen those. So five or six out of those
11 30-odd documents are translated, but you will be able to see that the
12 other sets are also true because the OTP obtained these independently of
13 anything I did. These are court documents, judgements and so on. So the
14 OTP was partly informed on these issues, not fully informed, and I
15 provided the complete sets of the documents. That's the difference
16 between what I did and the OTP did. But as you saw, the OTP did not even
17 attempt to challenge any of that.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to say something.
19 The Presiding Judge was talking about the future, because you did
20 not ask for these documents to be tendered, the ones that you've
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't do that in the future,
23 either, because I am now -- I have a family visit tomorrow, four days,
24 and these visits are eight hours. I have not a single day for
25 preparation, and I am surprised by the name of the witness. I can't sit
1 with my family for eight hours and then prepare for a hearing, so I can't
2 prepare something early enough based on this kind of behaviour by the
3 OTP, which springs a witness on me suddenly.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I would like to
5 add something.
6 It is very important to be attentive when the interpreters
7 interpret my interventions. I said something that I do not see here on
8 the transcript. I said, in fact, that the Presiding Judge was mentioning
9 documents in the future. Since the documents presented yesterday, and I
10 was talking to the accused, since yesterday you did not ask for those
11 documents to be tendered, there is no problem to have the translation of
12 those documents. In fact, the Presiding Judge said there is no problem
13 and we do not see that in the English transcript.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Mr. Marcussen.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Just in light of what has just been said, it's the Prosecution's
18 understanding, then, that the documents that have been shown to the
19 witness in this way are used only for the purpose of impeachment and will
20 not be relied on later on for the truth of the substance of the
21 documents. And because the documents are not admitted, all we have is
22 the parts that have been read into the transcript by the accused before
23 putting a question to a witness. I just wanted to make that point.
24 That's at least our understanding, and that's the basis on which we
25 proceed on the case. So if the accused wants to rely on these documents,
1 he must seek to admit them later on, and that should probably be done
2 during the Defence case. If they were admitted now -- if he were to
3 request the admission of these documents at this stage, it would still
4 only be for impeachment purposes.
5 I just wanted to make clear on the record what our understanding
6 of the procedure is.
7 The issue I was going to address with Your Honours now is the
8 schedule for next week.
9 As Your Honours know, the witness that was foreseen for next week
10 is undergoing surgery and will not be available. We have managed to get
11 another witness to come. It would be Witness VS-1065. For this witness,
12 we have completed our Rule 66(A) disclosure, but because of the
13 construction work in the Detention Unit, we understand that the accused
14 doesn't have access to all his materials. So before the hearing today,
15 we disclosed a new set of the witness statement and transcript from the
16 Milosevic case, when the witness testified there, plus a number of
17 exhibits, to the accused to facilitate his preparation.
18 Now, for this particular witness, Your Honour had rendered a
19 decision on the 7th of January, 2008, regarding the admissibility of the
20 witness evidence under Rule 92 ter. Your Honours dismissed a request by
21 the Prosecution for the admission of the transcripts of the witness
22 evidence in the Milosevic case, but Your Honours left open the
23 possibility that the Prosecution could reapply for the admission of a
24 statement of the witness under Rule 92 ter.
25 Now, in light of the time, I'd like to make an oral application
1 for the admission of a statement of the witness for next week.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I will give you
3 the floor in a few seconds, but I would just like to summarise for
4 Mr. Seselj so you can understand -- so that he can understand.
5 On the 7th of January, 2008, the Trial Chamber rendered a
6 decision regarding this witness, the Witness VS-1065. I will not mention
7 the name of the witness, because protective measures have been applied
8 for this witness.
9 The Trial Chamber had decided that it will not rule on the 92 ter
10 decision in absence of a statement, because we did not have a statement.
11 At the time, you wanted to rely on the transcript of the Milosevic case.
12 You just told us that you have this statement, but it is our opinion that
13 this witness has to come to testify as a viva voce witness.
14 But there is a problem, and this is the problem, Mr. Seselj. It
15 is as follows: The witness can come next week, but the problem that you
16 may have is are you capable to get ready, to prepare yourself for next
17 week for this witness since you told us, and this is something that we
18 did not know, that your family is visiting you and you are going to be
19 busy with them for a couple of days.
20 So now the question I'm putting to you, Mr. Seselj, is quite
21 simple. Would you accept that the witness, VS-1065, come next week, or
22 not, so that you may have sufficient time to prepare yourself for the
23 cross-examination of this witness, if the witness comes here to testify
24 as a viva voce witness?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that there is
1 no alternative, I will prepare as best I can. I've told you the
2 difficulties I'm facing, but I will find a way to be ready for that
3 witness. I don't want to miss a single minute I have at my disposal to
4 prepare. There's no alternative, but I don't want to waste any working
5 days. I have no reason to procrastinate these proceedings. I don't want
6 them to be prolonged, and I don't want to waste time. So I will prepare
7 to the best of my ability.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's good news.
9 So let's make sure everything is very clear regarding this
11 The Prosecution will have two hours for the examination-in-chief,
12 and Mr. Seselj, the Defence, will also have two hours. But when we're
13 saying "two hours," and two hours, it adds up to about two days
14 altogether with all the objections and all the time wasted and different
15 problems. Normally, two plus two is four hours, but if we add up and
16 compound this with other problems, we'll end up with two days.
17 So, Mr. Marcussen, can the witness be here as of Tuesday morning?
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Only good news today.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, maybe -- maybe for -- maybe not for the
21 Prosecution, or I don't know. We're prepared to do the witness as a live
22 witness. As I was about to say, I was going to make an oral application
23 for the admission of the witness evidence under Rule 92 ter, but I don't
24 know if I should take your indication -- or what you've already said as
25 an indication that the Chamber wants to have this witness as a live
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, viva voce, and we
3 are awaiting this witness for Tuesday morning. Tuesday morning, we are
4 sitting in the morning, and we start at 8.30 a.m.
5 Please continue, Mr. Marcussen.
6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Then I don't have much else to say. The only
7 thing I would say is the witness do identify a number of victims, and I
8 will do my best to present the witness evidence in two hours. But
9 depending on how it goes when we see the witness on Monday, I just want
10 to foreshadow the possibility that we might have to ask for a short
11 extension of that time. But we can deal with that once the witness is
12 here. But in light of what Your Honours have said, we can leave it like
13 this, and we'll start Tuesday morning.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 I would like to move to private session for a few minutes.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 6264-6283 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have three procedural issues to
19 Firstly, I received from the OTP a list of the video
20 documentation they have, with a proposal that I should mark what I need
21 on that list. I am now informing both the OTP and the Trial Chamber that
22 I need everything. That video documentation is so interesting, in my
23 eyes, that I could find nothing I would exclude from it. Therefore, I
24 request that the entire collection be disclosed to me. It's voluminous,
25 but I believe it's a whole mine of information, and I will engage my
1 associates to view it all. I'm sure I will find much that is useful.
2 Secondly, another problem has arisen in the Detention Unit. It
3 refers to discrimination of Orthodox Serbs in relation to other
5 I received -- I ordered, in a timely manner, roast meat and cakes
6 for the Orthodox Easter, which is on Sunday, the 27th of April. We did
7 this on time, according to the procedure we followed in previous years,
8 and I received an answer from the Detention Unit that what I ordered
9 cannot be delivered on Easter Sunday, but only on Friday. If this is
10 being prepared on Thursday, to be delivered on Friday, it has to stand
11 there for three days before we celebrate our chief religious holiday.
12 Recently, we had the other Easter, and everything that they
13 ordered was delivered on Sunday morning, before noon. It was all fresh.
14 The meat, the cakes, everything was fresh, and that was delivered on the
15 Catholic Easter.
16 I have decided to boycott this. I want to tell you that this is
17 flagrant, blatant discrimination. We were not able to celebrate the
18 Serbian New Year.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you said on Sunday,
20 food could not be delivered, but maybe the people who can deliver do not
21 work on Sunday. Maybe it's as simple as that.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then they should have been
23 closed on the Catholic Easter as well, because the owner of the shop is a
24 Croat, a Catholic, and he was able to deliver all this fresh to the
25 Catholics. But when he has to deliver to Orthodox Serbs, he doesn't want
1 to be open on Saturday or Sunday. That's the essence of the problem.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why don't you change caterer?
3 Why don't you take another caterer?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's not my caterer. It's the
5 management of the Detention Unit that cooperates with him. And for the
6 same reason, why there is an enormous number of Catholic Croats employed
7 in the OTP, the administration of the Court, the Detention Unit and so
8 on. It's all oriented in that way.
9 Let me remind you about the Serbian New Year. They said they had
10 lost my order form. I ordered this for the entire floor I'm on. And let
11 me remind you -- let me remind you that I have not yet received those
12 T-shirts of the most popular Serbian football team and the Serbian Judo
13 Federation. These have not been delivered yet. Had these been ordered
14 by Croats or Albanians, they would have received everything they wanted
15 right away. They can wear the T-shirts of their national football teams,
16 but when it comes to the Serbs, we're not allowed to do any of this. The
17 Detention Unit said I could have a T-shirt for myself, but I ordered
18 T-shirts for all the Serbs in the Detention Unit, and they said, "Well,
19 no, that you can't do."
20 That was the second issue I wanted to raise.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What team is it from Belgrade
22 The T-shirts represents which team?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why should I now, on public
24 television, advertise one football club? I don't want to say which one
25 it is. I am not a passionate supporter of any particular club, so I
1 don't want to say that, because I don't want people to say, "That's the
2 club he supports." But it was the T-shirts of that club that we happened
3 to find were available.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I asked you that question
5 because I thought that maybe you are a supporter of one particular club,
6 maybe you are a supporter of all clubs. So I understand you didn't
7 really answer to this question.
8 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, with all due respect, I don't believe
10 the last two subject matters are matters that need to be taking the
11 Trial Chamber's time at this point. I mean, the accused can certainly
12 raise the issues concerning the catering and the football shirts through
13 the appropriate authorities in the Registry, with the Detention Unit. I
14 don't believe this is something that we need to be spending our time on
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Mundis, these
17 administrative matters linked to the detention may have an incidence [as
18 interpreted] on the state of mind of the accused, and if his state of
19 mind is not happy, then it can have obviously an incidence
20 [as interpreted] on his behaviour.
21 I will ask what the thing is, why the catering problem is a
22 problem, but I was told they were on vacation.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's not on vacation. He doesn't
24 want to work on weekends, on Saturdays and Sundays, but he did want to do
25 that when it was Catholic Easter. He's not on vacation.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's one answer.
2 As for the football jerseys, well, I told you what I thought
3 about this. I don't see why your colleagues and those with you shouldn't
4 have football jerseys if you give them for free. I don't think that this
5 could have an incidence on the law and order in the prison or
6 Detention Unit. I'll try to see what I can do about this.
7 But I think there was a third thing?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's a complex issue which
9 concerns the situation that we're all aware of, and that is that the OTP
10 is not prepared for these proceedings and that the OTP has called a
11 number of false witnesses in the process, witnesses who lie.
12 These witnesses are not an exclusive thing of this trial alone.
13 There have -- they have been elsewhere as well, but their number is
14 extremely high here. And this is very obvious. I believe that the
15 Trial Chamber has noticed it as well, as did the general public. An
16 answer has to be given as to why this is so, and the answer has appeared
17 in Carla Del Ponte's book. "The Politika" of Belgrade, the most
18 reputable Serbian daily, has published on its two pages some excerpts
19 from Carla Del Ponte's book under the title "Djindjic," Djindjic who
20 talks to Carla Del Ponte who says, "Take Seselj and don't bring him
21 back." Carla Del Ponte in her book explains that she issued the
22 indictment against me on the order of Serbian Prime Minister,
23 Mr. Zoran Djindjic. That's what she published in her book.
24 She was the main Prosecutor, she signed the indictment against
25 me, and I believe I had to inform the Trial Chamber about that. I don't
1 know if you've read the book or not. It was published in Italian, and
2 the Serbian media keep on publishing excerpts from the book. And in her
3 book, Carla Del Ponte speaks in very bad taste about you, Your Honour,
4 Judge Antonetti, but let me not tell you what she tells about you in that
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't know that she was
7 talking about me. I will look into this with interest.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not going to tell you anything
9 in advance. I will leave the pleasure to you. But what matters to me is
10 what she says about me, and amongst other things she explains in the book
11 that Zoran Djindjic asked her to issue an indictment against me and told
12 her, "Take Seselj away and don't bring him back," and that is the
13 background of the indictment against me.
14 When an indictment is issued on somebody's orders, it can only be
15 corroborated by false witnesses, witnesses who lie. Carla Del Ponte has
16 left, but Mr. Mundis, Mr. Marcussen, and his team have remained here to
17 see the thing through. They are performing the orders of somebody who is
18 no longer responsible for her acts, but rather explains publicly why the
19 indictment was raised in the first place. And these proceedings are like
20 a whale without a head sailing across the oceans. False witnesses are
21 being brought in, and I believe the Trial Chamber should adopt a position
22 with regard to Carla Del Ponte's statement about this trial and about the
23 background of the indictment that was issued in the trial.
24 The mafia prime minister, Zoran Djindjic, fled five years ago and
25 no questions can be asked of him, but Carla Del Ponte is still alive, and
1 I believe that this is an example of blatant disrespect of the OTP, i.e.,
2 a crime that was committed while she was in office. She committed a
3 crime while she was in office because she raised the entire indictment
4 upon somebody's political request. And this is not the only abuse of her
5 Chief Prosecutor's office. There are many such cases, but this case is
6 obviously the most interesting for me, and that's why I'm presenting it
7 to you here in the courtroom.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, to finish it off.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Your Honours, the Prosecution objects to the accused being
11 allowed to come in and make speeches, make political comments, make
12 allegations that are bordering on -- allegations concerning members of
13 the Prosecution team in this case. With all due respect, I would suggest
14 that if a Defence counsel were to make these kinds of comments, he would
15 be sanctioned by the Trial Chamber, and it's inappropriate for this
16 accused to come in here and make these kinds of comments on --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, sir.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, differently from
20 you, I don't know what is in this book, but if in this book the
21 Prosecutor says that, "It is upon the request of the Prime Minister that
22 I am drawing up an indictment," I don't see why Mr. Seselj should be
23 banned from saying this.
24 MR. MUNDIS: If that's the case, Your Honour, and I haven't read
25 the book, either, I don't read Italian, if that's --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best thing is for everyone
2 to read the book, and then we will see, once the book is read.
3 MR. MUNDIS: If the accused wants to raise a motion, he can raise
4 a motion. He can -- what we're objecting to is simply coming in here and
5 making some kind of a speech. If he's asking the Chamber for specific
6 relief on a specific legal issue, for which there is a specific legal
7 remedy, all the power to him. What I'm objecting to is him coming in
8 here and spending 45 minutes making speeches, for which no remedy is
9 being sought. And I simply at this point want to put that on the record.
10 With respect to the first issue that he raised, the videotapes, I
11 will undertake a review, in terms of trying to determine how many
12 hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of videotape he's asking for, if he
13 asks for the entire collection. I will state that the majority of that
14 material is in English. Our position will be, and we will ask the
15 Trial Chamber after I've conducted a review of this, we will be asking
16 the Trial Chamber to reconsider some of its decisions concerning
17 providing material in the Serbian language on the grounds that if the
18 accused and his associates have time to review hundreds or thousands of
19 hours of videotape in English, then they certainly have time to review
20 suspect interviews and other material that's recorded and in the English
21 language. So we will be coming back to that issue after I've had a
22 chance to determine precisely how many hours of material it is we're
23 talking about, but it is huge. As I've indicated, there are thousands of
24 videotapes in our possession. If the accused wants them all, then we
25 will endeavour to do that, but if he has time to review those, and they
1 are in English, then he certainly has time to be reviewing other material
2 in the English language, and so I will be coming back to that issue after
3 I have additional information.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 Now, to finish this and to come back to Mrs. Del Ponte, I don't
6 know what is in the book, but I will immediately look into it. But as
7 far as I'm concerned, as a Judge, I do not write books, I do not
8 criticise anyone in writing. So first I would like to know exactly what
9 is included in this book. And if there is any judicial procedure that is
10 to be launched, I will do so. End of story.
11 Now, we will adjourn, and we will meet again on Tuesday morning
12 at 8.30.
13 Mr. Seselj.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me quote just one sentence from
15 Carla Del Ponte's book. She says:
16 "Djindjic, with regard to --"
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this is pointless.
18 We will look into this, as I told you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Okay, I will not do
20 that. But Mr. Mundis has said something really dangerous here. He now
21 wants you to reconsider your decision about the disclosure of documents.
22 Obviously, you can do whatever you please, but videotapes are
23 reviewed by eyes, not by ears. The important thing is to see what is
24 there, and if you come by a fragment that might be of some interest, then
25 obviously the few sentences connected to it can be translated.
1 Second of all, it is absolutely impossible for any document to be
2 disclosed in English or the interview of somebody's -- or the recording
3 of somebody's interview on a videotape. I am asking only for videotapes
4 of some relevant historical events, the original videotapes, not
5 interviews of somebody regarding some historical events. That's not what
6 I'm interested in.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Mr. Mundis said that he was going to review this. He will see,
9 and of course we will take everyone's opinion into account to see if
10 something needs to be changed. But I think I understood that what you
11 wanted at first was to have the videos, watch these videos with your
12 associates, and, if need be, if there's need for translations, then there
13 will be translations, especially if you want to use this as evidence.
14 So as I said earlier, we are now adjourning, and we will resume
15 on Tuesday at 8.30.
16 Every time I want to adjourn, you want to take the floor again.
17 We can play this game until tomorrow.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that's the end. If
19 I need a translation of a videotape, I'm going to send a written request
20 to the Secretariat -- to the Registry for the thing to be translated into
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I hope that we are
23 ending our session right now, so see you on Tuesday.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.03 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day
1 of April, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.