Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6295

 1                           Tuesday, 22 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             Good morning everyone in the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Vojislav Seselj.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             This is Tuesday, April 22nd, 2008, and I welcome Mr. Marcussen,

14     our witness, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the other people helping us.

15             I would like to ask Madam Registrar to please move to private

16     session in order for the solemn declaration to be made.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6296











11 Pages 6296-6297 redacted. Private session.















Page 6298

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I have with me first -- I should

13     introduce my assistant today, one of our interns, Amy Sinier, who is

14     helping with the presentation of the evidence of this witness.

15                           Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

16        Q.   VS-1065, what religion do you have, if you have any?

17        A.   I'm a Muslim.

18        Q.   And where did you grow up?

19        A.   I grew up in the village of Divic, Zvornik Municipality,

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   And did you live there in 1992?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   What was the ethnic composition of your village?

24        A.   The majority population were Muslim in the village.  There were

25     some Serbs, one family and five people from a mixed marriage, married to

Page 6299

 1     Muslims.

 2        Q.   How many people lived in your village?

 3        A.   Roughly, two and a half thousand.

 4        Q.   What was the relationship between the Muslims and the few people

 5     of Serb origin that lived in the village?

 6        A.   Well, the relations were good.  I don't think there were any

 7     problems.

 8        Q.   Now, I'd like to talk about first some events in the beginning of

 9     April 1992.  Around that time, did you see any military equipment in the

10     area that were not usually there?

11        A.   Well, perhaps at the beginning of 1992, it was noticed on the

12     Serb side that there was some artillery pieces, artillery weapons, that

13     weren't there beforehand.

14        Q.   When you say "on the Serb side," what do you mean?  The Serb side

15     of what?

16        A.   I mean on the Serbian side.

17        Q.   The Serbian side of -- of what?

18        A.   Well, Divic is at the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and

19     Serbia, in the border area, so what I mean is on the side of the state of

20     Serbia.

21        Q.   And what -- is the border visible by any particular natural

22     feature?

23             Maybe I can help the witness out -- maybe I can lead on this.  I

24     think it's a matter of just confusing -- am I correct that the border is

25     demarcated by the Drina River?

Page 6300

 1        A.   That's right, yes.

 2        Q.   Did the artillery pieces you see -- you saw, at some point were

 3     they stationed at particular locations that were recognisable along the

 4     river?

 5        A.   Well, they were positioned at the bridges and opposite to where I

 6     lived, on a hill there.  I think it was in Mali Zvornik Municipality.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,

 8     please.  Thank you.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:

10        Q.   VS-1065, if you can try to speak a little bit louder.  It's

11     difficult for the interpreters to hear you.

12             After Zvornik was attacked on around the 8th of April, did the

13     inhabitants of your village remain in the village?

14        A.   Well, not at that time, not everybody remained.  Perhaps a couple

15     of people stayed on.  The rest left and went to the neighbouring

16     villages, around the village of Divic.

17        Q.   You, yourself, did you stay or did you leave?

18        A.   I also left one night, and then I returned.

19        Q.   And what about your family?

20        A.   My family stayed for several days, stayed up there, and then a

21     couple of days later my father returned.

22        Q.   Did you have other members of your family living in your village

23     with you?

24        A.   After some time, everybody went back to the village of Divic,

25     those who wanted to go back.

Page 6301

 1        Q.   And after people had returned, what was the situation like in

 2     Divic?

 3        A.   At the beginning, the situation was -- well, we were isolated.

 4     We couldn't go into town anymore.  We were there in the place we were in,

 5     and we weren't allowed to move around, we couldn't move around, just

 6     around those villages and perhaps take the road to a little further off.

 7        Q.   I'd like to jump a little bit ahead to the month of May, and I'd

 8     like to ask you:  Did there come a time when the inhabitants of your

 9     village were asked to leave the village?

10        A.   Yes.  That happened roughly around the 26th of May, after the

11     units -- the shifts of the units were changed who were in our place on

12     the Serb side, this unit came in and the unit said we had to move out

13     because nobody could guarantee our safety and security there any longer.

14     And they gave us roughly two hours to get ready, to prepare ourselves,

15     and then they said they would transport us to Olovo.

16        Q.   The unit that moved into your village, could you describe that

17     unit for us, please?

18        A.   Well, it was the army, soldiers wearing military uniforms.  We

19     didn't know the unit -- we didn't know the people, rather.  I didn't know

20     them, didn't know who they were.  So, well, they all had weapons.

21        Q.   Why do you identify them as being from the army?

22        A.   Because they were wearing military uniforms, and at the

23     beginning, when the Serb army came to our village, after that first

24     military unit that entered our village, the police came.  I think it was

25     the police from the town of Zvornik, and it patrolled the area, and in a

Page 6302

 1     way it allowed us or enabled us to go into town.  And in town, we would

 2     be issued permits allowing us to move around.  So they were in blue

 3     uniforms, and that's why I think that unit was the army.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And so you said that you were told that you would be

 5     transported to Olovo.  How many people were going to be transported, do

 6     you estimate?

 7        A.   Approximately 500 people, a total.

 8        Q.   How were you going to be transported, by what means?

 9        A.   Buses.

10        Q.   Do you remember approximately how many buses there were?

11        A.   I think there were 11 buses.

12        Q.   Did you go to Olovo?

13        A.   Never reached Olovo.  We reached Han Pijesak, and we weren't able

14     to go further on from there, because they told us that there was fighting

15     going on up ahead so we weren't allowed to move on.

16        Q.   How long did you stay at the place where you couldn't move on

17     from?

18        A.   We were there for approximately two hours, and then we returned,

19     and we were stopped between Vlasenica and Milici.  I think the place was

20     actually called Zaklopaca.

21        Q.   And how long were you stopped at that location?

22        A.   The whole night.

23        Q.   And the next day, did you move on again?

24        A.   The next day, we once again set out in the direction of Zvornik,

25     where we were stopped by the SUP of Zvornik, and we spent about an hour

Page 6303

 1     there.  And then we set off again in the direction of Tuzla, and we

 2     reached Crni Vrh, and we weren't able to go further because allegedly

 3     there was some fighting going on there too.

 4        Q.   And so having been stopped again, where did you -- where did you

 5     go to?

 6        A.   They sent us back to the Zvornik station.

 7        Q.   What kind of a station; train station, bus station?

 8        A.   It was a bus station.

 9        Q.   Could you describe to us what happened there at the bus station?

10        A.   We waited there for a time, and then some soldiers turned up,

11     some young guys wearing uniforms, and they ordered all the men to step

12     out of the buses, and they escorted us to the city stadium that was right

13     next to the station.  And up on the stands, they separated people, people

14     over the age of 65 and those under the age of 18, and then they returned

15     them to the buses.  And then these men, who were militarily fit, stayed

16     on the stands.  The others were returned to the buses.

17        Q.   How many people remained on the stands?

18        A.   About 174 persons.

19        Q.   And you were among those men?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Where were this group of men that you were in -- where were you

22     taken from the bus station -- from the stadium, sorry?

23        A.   They took us in column, two-by-two, away from the stadium.  They

24     escorted us through town to the administration building at Novi Izvor

25     [Realtime transcript read in error "Mali Izvor"], where they put us up in

Page 6304

 1     a room there, and we had enough space just to stand, standing room.

 2        Q.   And while you were there, were you -- did anybody of authority

 3     come to see you?

 4        A.   After some time had gone by, Brano Grujic turned up.  I think he

 5     was an official in the Zvornik Municipality, and he said we would go and

 6     do some labour somewhere and that we should draw up a list of the people

 7     in the room and sign it -- or, rather, sign a loyalty oath or something

 8     like that.

 9        Q.   Loyalty to who?

10        A.   Well, in my opinion, to their authorities.  What he had in mind,

11     I really don't know.

12        Q.   And when you say "their authorities," who are you referring to?

13        A.   The Serb authorities.  Or, rather, I think that it meant that we

14     should accept their power and authority.  That's my opinion.

15        Q.   And did you sign the loyalty certificate?

16        A.   I did not, and I don't think anybody else did, because they no

17     longer asked for it later on.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

19             Before I move on, at page 9, line 20 of the transcript, there's a

20     reference to a location which should be Novi Izvor.  N-O-V-I I-Z-V-O-R.

21        Q.   Witness 1065, at this point in time did any of the men that you

22     were with leave the group?

23        A.   Yes.  After some time had gone by, they took out a young man, and

24     later on we learnt that through the intervention of his family from

25     Serbia, they transported him to Serbia.

Page 6305

 1        Q.   And later on, did more -- did more people leave the group?

 2        A.   Yes.  After time, some young guys turned up, wearing military

 3     uniforms, and they said that they were looking for 10 volunteers who

 4     would go with them to our village to search the houses there, and then

 5     allegedly they would return and another group would be sent out until all

 6     the houses had been searched and until they all went back to the houses.

 7        Q.   Did any of those men come back again?

 8        A.   On that occasion, 11 people went, and they never returned.

 9        Q.   To your knowledge, have they been seen since?

10        A.   I don't think anybody saw them alive, but they were found dead,

11     some of them.

12        Q.   Do you remember the name -- the names of any of these 10 men?

13        A.   I think there was Enver Pezerovic, Smajl Pezerovic, Kemal Tuhcic,

14     Hasan Tuhcic, Ibrahim Kuljanin.

15        Q.   VS-1065, you -- did you give a statement to the Office of the

16     Prosecutor in 1996?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Yesterday, did you have a chance to review that statement again?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   And in that statement, did you list the names of the victims that

21     you remembered had suffered various abuses and were killed during the

22     time period that we are talking about today?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   When you looked at your statement yesterday, did that -- did that

25     remind you of the victims that you knew about had suffered abuses and who

Page 6306

 1     had been killed?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And were you shown a list of various victims yesterday?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And having looked at that list, did you make some corrections to

 6     the list?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the list that you were shown was a list of various victims?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in addition to making corrections to the lists, did you also

11     add some additional victims that were not included in your statement from

12     1996?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And having done that, was the list then corrected and updated

15     based on the corrections you had made to the list?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I would ask now if we could call up

18     65 ter number 7220.

19        Q.   Witness 1065, now on your screen, to your right, there should be

20     a picture of a list.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Could we scroll down to -- the English version,

22     if we could look at the bottom part of the document.

23             Sorry, can we move away from that again, please.

24             I should probably ask that we do not broadcast the exhibit

25     outside the courtroom, if we can avoid that.

Page 6307

 1             So that's not been done.  Sorry, can we move back to this.

 2        Q.   VS-1065, is this the list that was finalised with you yesterday,

 3     and is this your signature down at the bottom there?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And could we move to the next page, please, of

 6     the document.

 7        Q.   This is difficult to see, but is this also your signature?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The same exercise again to the third page.  Go

10     down and see the signature.  Thank you.

11        Q.   And, again, this is also your signature on the third page?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And let's do the last two pages as well.  If we

14     can go to the fourth page.  And then --

15        Q.   Is this your signature?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And the last page, if we can go to that and have

18     a look at the signature.

19        Q.   And, again, am I correct this is your signature?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I would like at this stage to seek

22     the admission of this list of victims.  I'm going to come back to the

23     list a number of times as we move through the testimony.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just one question.

25             You put your signature at the bottom of various lists of victims.

Page 6308

 1     We have this list.  Therefore, I am slightly taken aback by the fact that

 2     you can give names of more than 100 people.  You give their first names,

 3     their last names.  Should we think that when you came to The Hague, you

 4     already had on you, in your pocket, let's say, a list of victims' names?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list of all those persons that

 6     are contained in my statement was given during my first statement in

 7     1996.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With respect to 1996, because I

 9     have your statement in my hand, there were 11 people who disappeared.

10     They must have been killed.  And now we have 26 names.  So you've added

11     15 names.  Did your memory just come back, or how can you explain this

12     additional knowledge?

13             Mr. Marcussen.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry.  If you will allow me to explain the logic

15     of the list, that is the Prosecutor's making and not the witness.

16             The list has been drawn up, so there are basically four parts of

17     the list that talk about different series of events, one series of events

18     prior to the Bajram holiday, events on the Bajram holiday, events on the

19     Vidovdan holiday, and events at the Batkovic camp.  So we're trying, in

20     the list, to group the victims together.  So the 11 people that are

21     mentioned by the victims are on the list, but there are other victims

22     that were killed during the pre-Bajram period following these 11 people.

23     But I will be going through that with the witness in a little bit.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor

25     explained to us how this list came about.  This list, the Prosecutor

Page 6309

 1     tells us that he drafted it and subdivided the list in three categories;

 2     the victims before Bajram, the victims during Bajram, and we have the

 3     victims after Bajram.  This is why the lists that you signed show us all

 4     the victims' names.

 5             Do you agree with what the Prosecutor just explained?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen.  Would you like to have a number?

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, please.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please, Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

12     Exhibit number P381.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry, I should have asked that it be placed

14     under seal.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P381, under seal.

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:

17        Q.   VS-1065 -- oh, sorry, could we go back to the first page of this

18     exhibit.

19             If we look at this list, the 11 people that you mentioned were

20     taken away from the Novi Izvor administrative building, are they, on

21     this -- can you see them on this page, and if so, which numbers do they

22     have?

23        A.   They are on this list from numbers 1 to 11.

24        Q.   How long did you remain at the administrative building?

25        A.   They were there for about three days in the administrative

Page 6310

 1     building.

 2        Q.   Then where did you go?

 3        A.   After that, we were told to leave the building, and they

 4     transferred us by buses to a nearby place on the road between Zvornik and

 5     Bijeljina.  The place was called Celopek.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd like now if we could call up

 7     Exhibit 65 ter 4164, please.

 8        Q.   1065, do you recognise this building?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Where is that?

11        A.   It was the building where we were put up after the administrative

12     building and Novi Izvor.

13        Q.   So is this the building in Celopek?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, this was -- picture was not

16     included in -- by mistake was not included in the witness binder.  I

17     would like to show another picture for the witness and ask him what the

18     picture is, and that is 65 ter number 4148, which is a picture that was

19     in the witness binder.

20        Q.   VS-1065, do you know what this building is?

21        A.   It is the same building in Celopek, in front of the centre.  It

22     was the bus station at the time.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter

24     number 4164 and 4148.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

Page 6311

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 4164 becomes P382 and 4148 becomes

 2     P383.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

 4             And just for the Registrar, we will be talking more about the

 5     list, so P81, under seal, during the rest of the testimony, so maybe you

 6     want to prepare that as we move on.

 7        Q.   VS-1065, how big was the room that you were placed in in Celopek?

 8        A.   It was like a cinema hall.  I can't tell you exactly, but about

 9     20 metres wide and some 50 metres long, perhaps a little smaller or a

10     little bigger than that.  I must say that I'm not quite certain when

11     talking about widths and lengths, and I don't know the exact size of the

12     building.

13        Q.   Was there anything prepared there for the detainees to be able to

14     sleep?

15        A.   When we arrived or, rather, entered this hall, we saw that there

16     were about eight iron beds there and thin field mattresses, some

17     blankets, and there was a stage on the right-hand side of the building,

18     so that almost all of us had somewhere to lie down and to cover ourselves

19     with the blankets.

20        Q.   Were you given any food while you were detained there in the

21     beginning?

22        A.   For the first three days, we didn't get anything as food.  We had

23     to manage somehow ourselves, with the help of the guards who were there.

24     We'd give them some money and they would get us something to eat.

25        Q.   And the guards that were there, could you describe how they

Page 6312

 1     looked?

 2        A.   They were wearing blue uniforms.  They were armed.  They had

 3     automatic rifles.  And that's it.

 4        Q.   Were you allowed to move outside the building?

 5        A.   At first, we could go out in front of the building.  We could go

 6     and use the toilet without any problems.  We could come out when we

 7     liked, to light a cigarette, except during the night.  But later on, we

 8     couldn't go out without permission.

 9        Q.   And did the guards change at some point in time?

10        A.   The guards who were in front of the building were always members

11     of the police.  I think it was the municipal police.  I don't know

12     exactly who they were.  But occasionally some others would come, some

13     other groups or some other men, who were wearing military uniforms or

14     half civilian, half military clothing.

15        Q.   Did there come a time when -- no, sorry, let me rephrase that.

16             At the beginning, did you have your ID papers and other personal

17     belongings with you?

18        A.   We only had the clothes we were wearing on us.  As for the

19     document, a savings booklet and everything, we had that on us, but we had

20     no luggage.

21        Q.   Were you -- your personal papers taken away from you at some

22     point in time?

23        A.   Yes.  I think early on, a day or two later, a group of men

24     arrived, who ordered us to take off our belts, shoelaces, and they took

25     away all our documents and everything we had.  We had to hand in money,

Page 6313

 1     jewellery, documents, and so on.

 2        Q.   And these men, could you describe what they looked like?  Were

 3     they members of the police or were they different?

 4        A.   They were wearing military uniform.  The colour was green, SMB,

 5     the military colour.

 6        Q.   You said that you had to hand in all your personal papers, and

 7     your shoelaces and belts and money.  Was anyone asked to pay money to

 8     this group later on?

 9        A.   Yes.  They took out a person, and they promised him that they

10     would transfer him to where he wanted to go, and he was told to give him

11     about 2.000 German marks, and for this sum they would transfer him to

12     wherever he said he wanted to go.

13        Q.   Did he have 2.000 marks that he could give the soldiers?

14        A.   He didn't have that money on him.  He asked us to lend him the

15     money, and he said he would return the money when he was freed.  However,

16     the people who had money collected about 1.700 marks for him to be able

17     to give the money to this group that was demanding it of him.

18        Q.   And did he give the money to the group?

19        A.   Yes, he handed over the money.  And later on, when they came, at

20     the time they promised the money was given to them, he asked that they

21     return at least our IDs.  And during the first conversation, they

22     promised to do that.  Later on, when he handed over the money and when he

23     asked for those documents, they swore at him, they hit him and pushed him

24     back into the room where we were.

25        Q.   Do you know the name of the person who were asked to give the

Page 6314

 1     2.000 marks?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  His name was Hasan.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like to ask that we go into private session

 4     just for a little bit.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:

21        Q.   1065, did there come a time when a registration was made of some

22     of the detainees?

23        A.   While we were staying in this room, at the beginning, almost

24     every evening, the people were counted who were there, and a list of

25     names was made, I think, only once, but the numbers were checked every

Page 6315

 1     evening.

 2        Q.   Could you describe the making of the list, please?

 3        A.   We had to form two lines, and then a policeman came, wearing a

 4     blue uniform, who counted the men, who checked whether everyone was

 5     present.

 6        Q.   Was there a point when the detainees were asked to make a list,

 7     themselves, or write down names?

 8        A.   On one occasion, we were asked to make a list of fathers and sons

 9     who were there in that room.

10        Q.   Who asked you to make that list?

11        A.   On one occasion, a group came who introduced themselves as being

12     the people who would take care of us, who would, as they said, protect

13     us, that the only requirement was that we carry out their orders.  They

14     didn't give their names.  They just told us a song that we had to sing

15     when they came and when they left.  And from this song, we concluded that

16     the name of one of them was Repic, or rather his nickname.  And also from

17     that song, we assumed that the other person's nickname was Lopov or

18     "thief."

19        Q.   And did Repic have anything to do with the order that you prepare

20     a list of fathers and sons?

21        A.   Yes.  He told us, for fathers and sons, to separate, and first

22     the sons had to form a line and then their father stood behind them, and

23     then we had to make that list.

24        Q.   Were any of the detainees that were registered marked in some way

25     at this point in time?

Page 6316

 1        A.   While we were making the list, he went from one person to the

 2     other and he made a cross on the forehead of some men with a knife.

 3        Q.   Was a cross made on you?

 4        A.   That didn't happen to me.

 5        Q.   Do you know approximately how many men had a cross made on their

 6     forehead?

 7        A.   I think roughly about 10.  I'm not quite sure.

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, I'm afraid I misled the Registrar a little

 9     while ago.  I think we have to go and see 65 ter number 4216.

10        Q.   1065, do you know who this person is?

11        A.   Yes, that is Repic.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I would --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I saw the

14     photograph in the file.  Could you tell us where it comes from?  Where

15     did you get this photograph?  What is its source?

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It's a photograph that -- it's a still or two

17     stills that are taken from a video, and I haven't had time to check what

18     that video is.  I have the video reference to it.  But it's a video -- a

19     still that the Office of the Prosecutor has taken from a video, and it

20     was -- it was referred to in the statement of the witness from 1996, at

21     page 7.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But this video, is

23     it the recording of a questioning by the police?  I guess so.  That's

24     what it looks like.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I apologise, Your Honours.  I haven't had time to

Page 6317

 1     check on the video.  I can inform you, after the break, what this is.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Resume.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like to tender this exhibit, please.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 6     Exhibit number P384.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 8        Q.   Now, you have described one group, and you have given the

 9     nicknames of some of the members of this group.  Was there another group

10     that also came to where you were detained regularly?

11        A.   Yes, they did come.  Those others who came weren't called by

12     their names.  There was one they referred to as "Major," and the other

13     one's name was Zoks.  Now, I learnt of this name later on, when we went

14     to Batkovici.

15        Q.   The person you learned was called "Zoks," have you subsequently

16     seen him?  And I ask that you just answer "yes" or "no" to the question.

17        A.   I think I have.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd ask we move into private session for the

19     witness to --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6318

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:

12        Q.   On the day that Zoks and his group came to where you were

13     detained, did anything particular happen?

14        A.   Every time they arrived, those groups arrived, something

15     happened.  And when Zoks arrived and this major -- well, they referred to

16     him as "Major," they asked us to hand over our money, our weapons.  And

17     on many occasions, they asked us to hand over our weapons or to tell them

18     who was in possession of weapons, things like that.

19        Q.   Did anyone say anything about how much value were put on your

20     lives?

21        A.   Well, while they were asking for these weapons or money, they

22     would threaten us and say that they'd kill us.  They threatened us in

23     various ways, and then they -- or, rather, Zoks said to us that our lives

24     were cheaper than the bullet in the barrel in the pistol he had.

25        Q.   Were [sic] anyone actually killed?

Page 6319

 1        A.   I did not see anybody actually killed, but two people were taken

 2     out, and you could hear two shots fired.  And afterwards, they took out

 3     another person to see what had happened outside -- I apologise for

 4     coughing -- to see what had happened outside.  And when that person

 5     returned to the room, they told him to tell us what he had seen.  Now, he

 6     couldn't do that or wouldn't do that to begin with, but as they forced

 7     him then he said that the people had been killed.

 8        Q.   The person who was taken outside and came back and told this to

 9     the other detainees, do you remember his name?

10        A.   His name was Sakib.

11        Q.   And the names of the two people that were killed, do you remember

12     those today?

13        A.   Ramo and Sulejman.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd ask if we could call up the list that we

15     saw before.  So I believe that was P381.  The list is up to the left on

16     the screen.

17        Q.   The two people you just mentioned, are they on this list?  And if

18     so, what number do they have?

19        A.   Yes, he's [as interpreted] under number 12 and 13.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Were anyone else called out that day?

21        A.   Well, they took out I think his name was Alija.  They took him

22     outside and brought him back, but he didn't tell us what they asked of

23     him.  And then they selected a young man whom they took out, and they

24     talked to him.  I don't know what they talked to him about.  And that

25     young man afterwards, when they returned him, he said in front of them --

Page 6320

 1     he told us -- he said that we should say -- we should say who of us had

 2     weapons to save his life, because they told him that he would be killed

 3     unless we told him who had weapons.

 4        Q.   Did -- well, could you describe, then, what happened during -- in

 5     a general way, what happened during the following days?  Did these groups

 6     come back to you in -- where you were detained?

 7        A.   Those groups were there almost all the time on the premises.

 8     Now, perhaps there were times in between where we were left to ourselves,

 9     but otherwise those groups would be there.  They would rotate, they would

10     change shifts.  Sometimes they were together, other times they were

11     separate, but they were there almost all the time.

12        Q.   Did they -- were they there as guards or did they do something

13     else to the detainees?

14        A.   I don't think they were there in the capacity of guards.  I think

15     they would come in from somewhere else, and they would come because of

16     their interests; either to make fun of us, or take our money, or things

17     like that.  I don't know.

18        Q.   I'd like to ask you about Dihic, Enes and Halilovic, Ibro.  Do

19     you know these two persons?

20        A.   Yes, I do, I do know those two.  They were taken out by Repic on

21     one occasion while Repic was looking for money, asking us to hand over

22     any money we might have.  And while they were beating us and God knows

23     what else they were doing to us, he took Enes out first and he said that

24     he had to talk to him about something.  And then the people who were with

25     him, they threw Enes out.  Then afterwards he selected Ibro.  He took him

Page 6321

 1     out, too.  And they never returned.

 2        Q.   And I'd like to ask you about a person that -- well --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, there's

 4     something here that I find strange in your answers.

 5             There's a group of persons coming to -- asking you for money.

 6     Actually, it's racketing, in a way.  Why can't they just search everyone

 7     and take the money that people would have on them, rather than ask for

 8     money and then hit people?  Do you have an opinion on this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said a moment ago that the

10     first group which came and which ordered us to hand over all the

11     documents, and our belts, and anything else, we did that, we handed all

12     those things over, and they didn't hand over everything because the

13     people -- some people thought that it wouldn't last long and that they

14     might need some money.  But when they took out the second person and

15     asked for money in order to transfer him to another place, well, he

16     collected this sum of money, so I think that they realised that people

17     still had some money on them.  That's what they thought, so they demanded

18     that it be handed over.  So that might have been the reason, or perhaps

19     the reason was that they wanted to do what they intended to do in the

20     first place, and that was a sort of pretext.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Mr. Marcussen, please resume.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Marcussen, I'm unsure about the exact time we

24     are here.  Could you just clarify this with the witness.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 6322

 1        Q.   1065, I know it's difficult to keep track of precise dates, but

 2     could you tell us approximately when the events you're talking about now

 3     took place?

 4        A.   Those events took place, let's say, perhaps a week after -- one

 5     or two weeks after our arrival, after we were put in that room.  So that

 6     was the period, let's say, before Bajram.  Afterwards, it was the 10th

 7     and 11th, and it was the Bajram holiday, and that's when some more

 8     serious incidents occurred.

 9        Q.   1065, Cupcic [phoen], Ismet, is that a person that you remember?

10        A.   I think it was Ismail Topcic.  Repic went up to the man and took

11     him by his ear.  He wanted to cut it off with a knife.  He put a knife to

12     it and told him to hand over his money and tell who else had money, and he

13     started to cry.  He said he didn't know, he said he didn't have any

14     money, so that he would leave him alone.  But Repic just cut the ear a

15     little bit and left him alone.  He didn't touch him anymore after that.

16        Q.   I'd like to ask you about a person with a nickname of Buco.  Do

17     you know a person referred to by that nickname?

18        A.   Buco, the person with that nickname, I learned of that name in

19     Batkovici.  That's when I heard it.  It was a largely-built man,

20     strongly-built man, or perhaps rather fat, and the person would come with

21     Zoks' group.  He turned up with Zoks' group.  And that person also stuck

22     knives or a knife into people's thighs, and he cut off a person's finger,

23     poked the knife into the person's hand and arm, and so on.

24        Q.   Did he do that to you?

25        A.   Yes.  He also stabbed me in both hands and cut into my shoulder,

Page 6323

 1     left shoulder.

 2        Q.   Do you have scars from that today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, I'd ask if we could go into private session

 5     for again a brief minute.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6324











11 Pages 6324-6325 redacted. Private session.















Page 6326

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I believe that

 7     you have about 50 to 55 minutes left.  I'm just telling you for your

 8     information, so you can prepare for the next questions after the break.

 9             But it is now 10.30, and we will take a 20-minute break.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are back into open session.

13     But before we resume, the Chamber will read a short oral decision

14     regarding the lifting of the confidentiality for the transcript.  I will

15     read slowly.

16             Given the oral motion presented by the accused on the 10th of

17     April, 2008, regarding the publication of portions of the transcript

18     which took place in private session on that same day, given that the

19     Chamber considers that the confidentiality of some portions of the

20     transcript identified hereunder can be lifted while respecting the

21     confidentiality of the witness, and I will read the relevant portions

22     which are now public.

23             Page 5968, line 13, to page 5972, line 7.  And then pages 5982,

24     line 28, to page 5988, line 2.  Then page 5988 [Realtime transcript read

25     in error "5998"], line 12, to page 59 -- there's a mistake in the

Page 6327

 1     transcript.  From pages 5988, line 12, to page 5989, line 4.

 2             The references to the transcript are also the references in the

 3     French transcript.

 4             Very well.  This being said, Mr. Marcussen, we've talked earlier

 5     about the Belgrade trial.  The Trial Chamber would like to have in its

 6     possession a copy of the indictment or what replaces an indictment in the

 7     local jurisdiction regarding the six accused of the trial that is now

 8     taking place.  We would like to have it as soon as possible, please.

 9             Another thing that we would like to ask the Prosecution, and I

10     would like to ask of this in private session -- could we please move into

11     private session briefly.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6328

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 6329

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I promised to try to find out where the still

 3     photographs that were shown earlier to the witness come from, and I

 4     understand that it is a still that is taken from a video that was

 5     provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by Witness VS-27, who had been

 6     preparing a documentary, and it's from that material that this particular

 7     still has been taken.  We, of course, hope to have VS-27 here and to be

 8     able to clarify the origin of this with him, but that's the information I

 9     have at this stage about the source of that particular photograph.

10        Q.   VS-1067 -- 1065, we're now back in open session.  After the

11     events that we talked about while we were in private session, what

12     happened to the detainees in the room you were in?

13        A.   While we were there, as these groups changed, as I described a

14     moment ago, people were mistreated in the way I have described.  Then

15     some of those people were taken out, and they never came back.  Some

16     people were taken out to see what had happened outside, and that's it.

17        Q.   Now, if you would look at the list that you have in front of you

18     on the screen.  The people that you just mentioned that were taken out

19     and never came back, are they found on this page of the list?  And if so,

20     with what numbers?

21        A.   Yes, they are on the list.  We said a moment ago that numbers 12,

22     13, 14, 15 were taken out and they didn't come back.  The person under

23     number 16 also was taken out and didn't come back.  The persons under 17,

24     18, 19 were also taken out, taken away, and they didn't come back.

25        Q.   And the three people that are mentioned under 17, 18 and 19, do

Page 6330

 1     you know whether they were related in any way?

 2        A.   Those three persons were three brothers.

 3        Q.   And do you know who took them out?

 4        A.   They were taken out by Repic's group.

 5        Q.   And sorry, I interrupted you.  If you wouldn't mind continuing

 6     down the list, please.

 7        A.   The person under number 20 was also taken out and he didn't come

 8     back.  The persons under 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 were also taken out,

 9     and they didn't come back.

10        Q.   Now, I'd like to move on, then, to Bajram day.  Could you tell us

11     what happened on that day?  And if you can start just describing the day,

12     and then we'll probably have to go into private session in a little bit.

13        A.   On that day, I don't remember the time when this happened, a

14     group came -- or, rather, this Repic man entered, and he asked us, as he

15     had done before, to talk about certain persons that he named.  And he

16     asked whether we would write to him or tell him something about that.

17     Then he asked that fathers and sons come out.  Some of those persons came

18     out.  He sent them to the stage.  After that, I think he noticed that

19     they were too few.  Then he started selecting people, himself, the men he

20     wanted to choose, and they were sent to the stage too.  And then he

21     ordered those men to get ready, and the others who were in the room were

22     ordered to move to one side and to sit down.  And the people who were on

23     the stage had to take off their clothes and were forced to engage in oral

24     sex.

25        Q.   How many people were on the stage?

Page 6331

 1        A.   I don't know exactly how many.  I think there were two pairs of

 2     father and son and perhaps about ten people in all.  I can't remember

 3     exactly.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I would request if -- that we move to the third

 5     page of the exhibits on the screen, provided that we still are in a

 6     setting where the exhibit is not being shown outside the courtroom.

 7        Q.   VS-1065, without stating any names, on the page that you now see

 8     before you, do you see the names of some of the people that were on the

 9     stage who were forced to perform these acts?  And if so, with what

10     numbers?

11        A.   Those men are under numbers 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.

12        Q.   Thank you.  After this event, what happened?

13        A.   When they were ordered to engage in oral sex, Repic walked around

14     in front of us and selected people who he would shoot at.  At first, I

15     thought it was an air rifle, but when I saw that people were dying, that

16     people hit in the eye lost their eye, so I realised that it was a

17     different kind of weapon, a small-calibre rifle.  I don't know much about

18     these things, though.

19        Q.   Now, do you -- do you know the name of any of the people who got

20     killed?  And if so, do you see them on the list in front of you?

21        A.   They are on the list of men who were killed in the room.  They

22     are under numbers 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, then --

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry to interrupt you.  A brief moment in

24     private session, please.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

Page 6332

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:

11        Q.   What happened to the bodies of the people that had been killed by

12     Repic, as you just described?

13        A.   After completing this act, if I can put it that way, we had to

14     carry out -- the men outside.  I didn't go out; I stayed inside.  Those

15     bodies were loaded onto a truck and were taken in an unknown direction.

16     We had to clean up everything so there wouldn't be any traces of blood,

17     so that no one could notice that something had happened.  So all this was

18     done by two groups.  In the first group were the men killed, and in the

19     second group there was a couple of bodies and the bed clothes and

20     blankets that were bloodied, and we had to clean it all up.

21        Q.   Did -- the men who were carrying out the bodies, did they come

22     back into the room?

23        A.   Those men never came back, never came back to this room where we

24     were.

25        Q.   The name of those people who went out and did not come back, are

Page 6333

 1     they found on the list?  And if so, under what numbers?

 2        A.   Yes, they are under numbers 48, 49, 50, 51, and 52.

 3        Q.   Sorry.  Could you tell us what happened to the person listed

 4     under number 53?

 5        A.   The person under number 53 was taken out after all these others

 6     had been taken away, and the people who accompanied the dead men.  He was

 7     taken out, and one of us saw him cleaning up something outside.  He also

 8     didn't come back into the room.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Again, I'd ask for a brief moment in private

10     session.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Madam Registrar.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:

23        Q.   Are you -- did you know a person named Pezerovic, Zaim?

24        A.   He also lived in our village, and he was detained with us in that

25     room.

Page 6334

 1        Q.   Could you tell us if anything happened to him around the time we

 2     are just talking about now, well, on Bajram day?

 3        A.   On that day when all these things were happening, I'm referring

 4     to the oral sex and the murder of these men, a while later Repic took out

 5     two men.  Zaim was one of them and Sakib was the other.  He chose those

 6     two and told them to lie down.  I couldn't see properly what happened to

 7     them, but I heard from others that one had his throat slit and the other

 8     was stabbed in the heart.

 9        Q.   And Sakib, do you know what his family name is or was?

10        A.   Kapidzic.

11        Q.   Did you witness anyone else being stabbed by Repic that day?

12        A.   After the two of them, he climbed on to the stage and he ordered

13     Saban Bikic to lie down on the stage, and he also stabbed him in the

14     chest, in the heart.  He left his knife there, and this person tried to

15     pull the knife out, probably to save himself, but he didn't succeed and

16     he was -- stayed there dead on the stage.

17        Q.   There are two -- number 57 and number 58 on the list that you

18     have in front of you.  Do you know what happened to those two persons?

19        A.   Those two persons were killed on the stage with this

20     small-calibre rifle or whatever.

21        Q.   And who did that?

22        A.   Repic did it.

23        Q.   Apart from the people whose names we have been talking about

24     today, were there other people that were killed that day?

25        A.   I think that on that same day, I don't think there were others

Page 6335

 1     killed except the ones I mentioned, but there were visits.

 2        Q.   And when you say "there were visits," what happened during those

 3     visits?

 4        A.   Well, when I say "visits," I mean these groups coming in to where

 5     we were, who replaced each other but who were there almost all the time,

 6     and the events that we've been talking about; that they beat us, that

 7     they cut us with knives, that they killed us, that they forced us to

 8     perform oral sex, and all the other things.

 9        Q.   Were you, yourself, beaten by Repic or by his group on that day?

10        A.   Well, whether it was actually on that particular day or a minute

11     before or a day before, I can't say, but, anyway, we all had to hand over

12     almost all our clothing, and they tried -- what they wanted to do was to

13     search us, to frisk us in detail.  I had to take all my clothes off,

14     except my underwear, and they sent all of us up onto the stage.  I was

15     sent up there too, and they hit me with some sort of iron bar or pipe.

16     Anyway, it was metal and round in shape.  And from that blow, I might

17     have gone a step or two forward unconsciously, and then I returned.  I

18     took several steps back because I was afraid that they would beat me

19     again, that they would beat me more.

20        Q.   From -- in the period between Bajram day and the holiday called

21     Vidovdan Day, were more people being killed inside -- were more people

22     that were detained in the room killed?

23        A.   I don't think so, not during that period from Bajram until

24     Vidovdan or St. Vitez Day, but on one occasion a group came in, whether

25     it was Zoks' group or a mixed group I'm not quite sure, and they also

Page 6336

 1     beat us and would draw -- or, rather, cut into our skin the four "S"

 2     signs on our backs.

 3        Q.   What would they cut the sign with?

 4        A.   With a knife.

 5        Q.   Did they cut that on the back of everyone?

 6        A.   Well, no, just one person.  They carved the four "S" signs on his

 7     back.

 8        Q.   And were -- no, sorry, you've already answered that.  I'm sorry.

 9             If we move now, then, to Vidovdan day, would you describe to us

10     what happened on that day?

11        A.   After Bajram, after that period when the first group of people

12     were killed, perhaps the following day or something like that, I don't

13     remember the exact time, a person turned up, calling out my name, and I

14     knew them.  And the person was in police uniform, and I asked for

15     assistance to protect my father, if not me.  And he said that the key

16     that was there somewhere in the SUP in Celopek or wherever and that an

17     intervention was already made and the key would no longer be there, but

18     it would be in the SUP of the Zvornik Municipality so that nobody would

19     be able to enter without a permit or something like that.  So nobody

20     entered at that time.  Nobody was able to enter through the door because

21     the key wasn't there, since the door wasn't open.  And that day, during

22     that time when Repic turned up, the door happened to be open because that

23     was the time when we were brought our food.  It was lunchtime.  It was

24     about 2.00 or 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon, somewhere around there.

25             Anyway, he came in with an automatic rifle and once again asked

Page 6337

 1     us to talk or anyone to tell him about the people that he was looking

 2     for.  He wanted us to tell him.  Now, some people began talking, and he

 3     shot them straight away.  After that, he shot a burst of gunfire above

 4     our heads, and I was on that side, and four people dropped down to the

 5     floor.  They fell.  Three were injured, three were wounded, and two were

 6     able to get up.  The third one stayed lying down, and that was the person

 7     whose sex organ had been cut off.  He came up to him and shot him with

 8     his pistol, and said that as far as he was concerned, he didn't want any

 9     wounded people.  So then he went back to where he was standing in front

10     of us and once again asked us who could tell him what.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if you would rather

12     that we stopped, because obviously you're extremely moved ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked us once again if we could

14     tell him anything.  However, the people were all in a panic by that time,

15     and they started shouting and saying that if anybody knew anything, they

16     should move over to the other side, that we should tell him what we knew.

17     And we were all fully aware that he would shoot us.

18             Then there was another burst of gunfire.  He shot again, and he

19     ordered us to cross over from one side of the room to the other, where he

20     shot a burst of gunfire again.  And I think that on the spot, he killed

21     about 20 people.  There were 22 people or maybe 24 people who were

22     wounded, of which of those wounded two people died in that same room,

23     succumbing to the wounds.

24             After that, he said that we had to clean all the mess up and that

25     he would return in about half an hour, and that it all had to be clean,

Page 6338

 1     and not leave any traces.  And then he ordered us to sing the song he

 2     told us to sing at the beginning.  Whether he wrote the song or whatever,

 3     I don't know, but we had to sing the song while we were cleaning

 4     everything up and taking everything out, to leave the room clean and

 5     clear of all the traces.

 6        Q.   VS-1067 [sic] -- excuse me, 1065, I'll ask if we can go to page 4

 7     of the exhibit that's on the screen.

 8             I would suggest that maybe we take a ten-minute break at this

 9     stage, if we can.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a short break.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

14             Mr. Marcussen, you have 20 minutes left.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   VS-1065, if you would look at the screen, are the names of the

17     killed and --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

19     interpretation.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please check

21     why Mr. Seselj does not receive interpretation.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm receiving it now.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 6339

 1        Q.   VS-1065, are there -- are there names of the deceased and wounded

 2     people that you talked about, are they shown on the screen at the moment?

 3             And I'd like the Registrar just to move the picture up just a

 4     little bit so we get the last names.  I think that's good, thank you.

 5        A.   Yes, they are.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Now, if we can go into private session for a very

 7     brief moment again, please.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:

20        Q.   1065, after this, were you -- were the people from Celopek moved

21     to be detained in another location?

22        A.   Yes.  After a day or two -- a day or two later after what had

23     happened in Celopek, those of us who remained there, who remained alive

24     and wounded, were transferred to the old prison in Zvornik.

25        Q.   And how long, approximately, did you stay there?

Page 6340

 1        A.   Approximately a fortnight to 20 days, I don't quite remember, in

 2     those premises.

 3        Q.   And about how many people from -- that you had been detained with

 4     at Celopek were with you at the jail in Zvornik?

 5        A.   About 80, maybe a few more.  That was the number, roughly, in the

 6     prison there.

 7        Q.   And after having been detained in the jail in Zvornik, were you

 8     taken somewhere else, where you were detained?

 9        A.   After some time, after we'd spent some time in Zvornik in the old

10     jail, they told us that we should make a list of everybody wounded and

11     injured.  We didn't know why.  And those who weren't wounded or injured,

12     after we'd made up that list, compiled that list, we were taken out a few

13     days later and transported by bus to Batkovici.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I -- in the interests of time, I

15     will -- and for the sake of the witness, I will stop with the witness at

16     this point.

17             With respect to the exhibit that's on the screen, I propose that

18     we remove the last page, as I'm not going to discuss the particular

19     victims that are mentioned there.  So we will, from the Prosecution --

20     sorry, we'll ask the Registrar if the Registrar would be kind enough to

21     remove the last page of this exhibit, and then this will end the direct

22     examination of the witness.

23             Now, I have a proofing note that was drafted up and has now been

24     translated that I would like to hand over to the accused in English and

25     B/C/S.  Obviously, as the accused has not had this before -- sorry, I was

Page 6341

 1     looking at the wrong thing.  I, of course, understand if the accused

 2     needs until tomorrow to digest the proofing note and do the

 3     cross-examination of that tomorrow, but at least we managed to get the

 4     proofing note done.

 5             Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Witness, I would not want to evoke such painful memories again,

 8     but as a judge there are some items I would like to shed light on.

 9             You said that your father was among the casualties.  Was his body

10     found, or as of now do you still not know where your father's body is?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was found.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was he buried?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is buried where we lived before,

14     in our village.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was his body found?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, but I think

17     it was at Crni Vrh, in the mass grave there.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question.  You talked

19     at length about Mr. Dusan Repic.  Have you ever -- did you know his real

20     name?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think his name was

22     Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know what happened to

24     him?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few years ago, I heard talk that

Page 6342

 1     there were legal proceedings in Sabac against him, and I think he

 2     admitted to killing 15 people in Celopek.  And afterwards, there was a

 3     trial in Belgrade for the six accused that I mentioned.  He was one of

 4     them.  And I think he's in prison now.  That was the information I had.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             Mr. Seselj, are you ready to start with the cross-examination,

 7     after having read the proofing note?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that this witness

 9     testified truthfully.  I am sorry for the tragedy that he has had in his

10     life, and I'm not going to ask him any questions.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             I'll ask my fellow Judges if they have any questions to put to

13     the witness.

14             Very well.  Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to

15     thank you for coming to The Hague, on the Prosecution's request, and we

16     of course extend all our condolences for this tragedy you've lived

17     through.  So we really feel very sorry for what happened to you and

18     extend our condolences.  We wish you all the best for your return home.

19             We'll now adjourn so that you may leave this courtroom.  Because

20     there is an audience in the gallery, we'll have to close the curtains.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, tomorrow we have

23     the videos, I guess, as our schedule is concerned, so we'll see the

24     videos tomorrow.  And obviously we will have no hearing on Thursday.

25             Mr. Marcussen, I would like you and Mr. Mundis to check

Page 6343

 1     thoroughly the schedule for the witnesses to come.  After May 5th, please

 2     check that everything is on track and that we won't run into any

 3     problems, as far as the scheduled witnesses are concerned.  And if for

 4     any reason one witness was not available, please try to have a backup

 5     programme in store, which means, you know, that you need to have several

 6     witnesses ready to appear, inasmuch as Mr. Seselj could also

 7     cross-examine adequately and is well prepared for that.  But we'll see --

 8     we'll check this on a case-by-case basis.

 9             Mr. Seselj, we have some time left, and I would like to know

10     whether there's some items that you would like to discuss.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I have a number of

12     administrative matters to raise.

13             First of all, I've just received these notes from the interview

14     of VS-1065, and last week the Prosecution said, bearing in mind the

15     situation that I'm in in the Detention Unit, that it would provide me

16     with a set of the relevant documents relating to that particular witness.

17     However, from these notes I see for the first time now that this witness,

18     on the 16th of August, 1993, talked to members of the centre of the

19     security services, I assume of the Muslim authorities; but I don't know

20     where, was it in Tuzla or somewhere else?  I didn't have that document in

21     my possession.  Of course, even if I did have it, my position would be

22     identical and I would not cross-examine this witness, because apart from

23     some matters of quantification and some details that you noticed, too,

24     during the examination-in-chief, I don't have anything to challenge on

25     the whole, in view of that testimony.  I knew even before that killings

Page 6344

 1     did happen in that place and that sexual abuse took place as well.

 2     However, I have to criticise this manner on the part of the Prosecution

 3     whereby I was not given -- provided with the sets of documents.  So that

 4     is my first objection and first comment.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, it would appear

 6     that the accused -- or, rather, that the person in question met security

 7     services in 1993.  The accused would have liked to obtain those

 8     documents, and he is once again complaining of the fact that the

 9     Prosecutor did not disclose this information to him.  Would you have

10     anything to tell us about this?

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes.  According to our records, the document

12     was -- actually, the first in the bundle of documents that were disclosed

13     on the 17th of April with receipt number 325, which was the bundle of

14     material that was disclosed together with the other statements and the

15     transcripts of the witness' testimony in previous cases.  So this

16     material was disclosed on the 17th.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Seselj, apparently the

18     bundle was communicated or disclosed to you on the 17th of April, and the

19     receipt even bears a number, number 325.  I don't know if this is the

20     case, but this is what Mr. Marcussen told us.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not impossible,

22     Mr. President, because I received an official note having to do with this

23     witness, which is just a few sentences long.  But that's not the

24     statement.  There's no witness signature here.  So it's not a report on

25     the interview, it's just an official note.  And in our police force, the

Page 6345

 1     practice is when an official note is compiled, the witness doesn't have

 2     to sign, it's just a piece of information.  But when the witness gives a

 3     statement, then he signs.

 4             So this is a misunderstanding, I assume, because I did receive

 5     this official note, and it doesn't contain anything specific, nothing

 6     special, except an identification of Dusan Vuckovic, Repic, but then it's

 7     not a statement.

 8             Then I withdraw the objection if Mr. Marcussen had this in mind,

 9     but we had to clear the matter up.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.  And just to confirm, this is what I

11     had in mind, and that's all that I'm aware of that the Prosecution have.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My second comment is this, Judges:

13     The question of relevance in calling this witness at all.  The witness

14     did testify about horrendous things, but you heard at the beginning of

15     the examination-in-chief that he was testifying about the events of the

16     26th of May or from the 26th of May onwards, and he is testifying -- or

17     he testified about the bestial behaviour of members of the Yellow Wasps.

18     And I think the OTP -- it's up to the OTP to prove that before the 26th

19     of April, 1992, that is to say, one month prior to that, that after that

20     date a single volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party remained in Zvornik.

21     They would have to prove that, and to prove that the Yellow Wasps have

22     anything to do with the Serbian Radical Party and me, personally, at all,

23     because otherwise there's no sense to all this.  And I think the question

24     of relevance, you, as the Trial Chamber, should raise at this point.

25             I know that this is a very vivid example of the crimes that took

Page 6346

 1     place.  These crimes cannot be justified by anything, although identical

 2     crimes were committed on the other side.  But, of course, one crime does

 3     not justify another crime.  I agree with that.  But let's see what that

 4     has got to do with me.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, that is

 6     why the Trial Chamber requested from the Prosecution to obtain a copy of

 7     the indictment of the Belgrade trial, so that we can make sure that we

 8     understand exactly what's going on.

 9             I have to tell you that at the present time between the

10     Radical Serb Party, yourself, and the Yellow Wasps, I am in a total mist

11     or a fog.  We have to establish a link.  In fact, maybe we will hear

12     other witnesses.  We might get this document.  You, yourself, will call

13     your own witnesses to shed some light on this whole matter.  But for the

14     time being, I must say that we are in the dark, and we are trying to

15     establish some kind of link or guiding light.  For the time being, we

16     didn't get any further precision, and this is why the Trial Chamber did

17     not insist.

18             Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, Your Honour, we will of course provide

20     further evidence on this particular issue.

21             As Your Honour and the accused knows, we are filling up the

22     schedule with witnesses that are becoming available, and what is

23     happening at the moment is that we're having crime-base Zvornik witnesses

24     being moved up to fill gaps in the schedule, so we haven't had a

25     possibility of presenting our evidence with respect to this crime site in

Page 6347

 1     any coherent way.

 2             We are fully aware of the problems that arise from the fact that

 3     we have to basically throw in witnesses in the middle of the sequence of

 4     other evidence.  We, of course, regret that.  We would have liked to

 5     present our case in a more coherent fashion, but for practical reasons

 6     that has not been possible.

 7             As a legal point, I would stress that if the accused has

 8     objections to the relevance of a piece of evidence, those objections

 9     should be made before the evidence is presented.  It has been clear all

10     the way along what this witness' evidence would be with respect to the

11     events he has just testified about, so objections to relevance should

12     have been made early on.  I think it would not be appropriate for me to

13     make submissions on the issue of relevance before we've actually had the

14     evidence presented to the Court, but obviously it is our position that

15     the crimes committed in the different detention facilities in the Zvornik

16     areas were part of the overall plan that this case is about.  And we're

17     also going to present evidence about the link between the specific

18     individuals mentioned as perpetrators and the accused.  That will come

19     hopefully in a more coherent fashion later on.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Mr. Seselj, what is your next point?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, late last week I was

24     informed about the appearance of this witness, and I only had the weekend

25     to look through the material relating to this witness.  So I didn't have

Page 6348

 1     a chance to indicate that the testimony was not relevant.

 2             You noticed, when the Prosecutor was putting certain leading

 3     questions in an impermissible way, I didn't wish to intervene, bearing in

 4     mind the really difficult situation the witness is in.  But I think it is

 5     quite clear to everyone that the main problem here is relevance and that

 6     the Prosecution, even though it is in such a critical situation regarding

 7     witnesses, it must produce certain links and produce the results of its

 8     investigations.  They must prove that a single volunteer of the

 9     Serbian Radical Party, after the 26th of April, was in Zvornik.  And I

10     have produced documents showing that we attacked the Yellow Wasps in

11     public because of their criminal behaviour.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I wanted to hear

13     the translation until the end.

14             What you just told us now, you've already told this before, so we

15     understand your point of view.  Would you like to raise another topic?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing further to add

17     regarding this issue.  What I would like to underline is the question of

18     the book by Carla Del Ponte, and I am waiting your official position.

19     One can see that there's a serious violation of the Statute and the

20     Rules of the International Tribunal.  Clearly, she was exposed to

21     pressure to act in a certain way.  She was not independent, as the

22     Prosecutor, and I think there are certain consequences that follow.

23             On the other hand, I draw your attention to the fact that I

24     haven't heard anyone officially reacting on behalf of the Tribunal

25     regarding lies spread in Belgrade that I met here in prison with the

Page 6349

 1     counsel of Haradinaj, Ramush Haradinaj.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please, Mr. Seselj.

 3     I will answer, but in tackling the last subject.

 4             With regards to the meetings that you may have had with the

 5     Haradinaj lawyers, I've asked the legal officer to check with the prison

 6     authorities to see if you, indeed, had had some contacts, and the

 7     Detention Unit replied that you had no contacts, indeed.  So you would

 8     not have been able to meet Haradinaj's attorneys, so that is to answer

 9     the latter part of your intervention.

10             With regards now to the first part regarding the book that

11     Mrs. Carla Del Ponte wrote, at the present I haven't read this book yet.

12     Aside from some press clippings, I do not know what this book contains.

13     You're saying, "I'm expecting the Trial Chamber to adopt a position."  I

14     don't know what position you want us to adopt.  We would have be able to

15     identify exactly what is your request.

16             What do you want us to do, exactly?  In order for the

17     Trial Chamber to take a position, to take a stand, or to have a position,

18     it would be important that your request be identified clearly.  The

19     Prosecutor has to also reply, and then the Trial Chamber has to render a

20     decision.  I do not know at this point in time what do you request of us,

21     exactly.  Could you please be a little more precise, if you wish.  You

22     can make an oral submission, if you wish, but you can also present a

23     written submission, registered in due form, and the Trial Chamber will

24     reply to this written motion.  The Prosecutor will also submit his


Page 6350

 1             So at this point in time, I do not understand exactly what you

 2     want from us.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me simplify

 4     things to the extreme.

 5             Carla Del Ponte was the Chief Prosecutor of the

 6     International Tribunal for many years.  After leaving the Tribunal, she

 7     published a memoir.  In one sentence, she said that at the time, the

 8     prime minister in the Serbian government, I add "the mafia

 9     prime minister," Zoran Djindjic said, "Take Seselj and don't send him

10     back."  And after that, she issued an indictment, and then I came to

11     The Hague of my own accord.  For me, that is an admission of a flagrant

12     violation of the duties of a Prosecutor.

13             I'm not making a political speech, as Mr. Mundis said at our last

14     hearing.  I'm just limiting myself to the legal extract from that book

15     and what follows from it.  If that is true, then she's liable to criminal

16     responsibility, and then the Trial Chamber must take a position regarding

17     the validity of such a statement, because it leads to many consequences.

18     Then you can see how come you have false witnesses, the way in which they

19     tell their story, and so on.

20             But I think it is absolutely indispensable for the Trial Chamber

21     to take a position.  And to begin with, I think you should give

22     instructions for the relevant portions of the book to be translated into

23     English and French, in fact all parts of the book in which my name is

24     mentioned.  Perhaps that would be sufficient.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I haven't read the book either, and

Page 6351

 1     I'm not in a position to comment fully on the correctness of the

 2     accused's interpretation of the one sentence that he's talking about.

 3             The correct legal remedy in this situation, if the accused wants

 4     to do something, is to make a motion alleging that there have been some

 5     sort of abuse of prosecutorial power.  That's what he should do.

 6     Your Honours directed that, I think, last week, that if he wanted to

 7     raise these sort of matters, it should be done in the form of a motion.

 8     I think that's absolutely correct.

 9             And if the accused thinks that there's a link between those

10     events and false evidence being presented in court, he must also prove

11     that and substantiate it.

12             Last week, the accused alleged that Prosecution counsel knowingly

13     is putting false evidence before this Trial Chamber.  There must be some

14     sort of -- sorry, of substantiation of those kind of allegations.  If the

15     accused has evidence that he wants to put before the Trial Chamber on

16     this issue, he should do so, but continuing to raise this in this manner

17     is inappropriate, in my respectful submission.

18             And if you want a translation of any parts of the book, he can

19     use the translation services of the Tribunal just as well as the Chamber

20     or the Prosecution can, so he can identify the passages he wants

21     translated and have them translated.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I believe that

24     Mr. Marcussen has identified the problem very well.  If you're

25     challenging, legally, and let's remain in the legal context, if you're

Page 6352

 1     legally contesting anything to do with the book, the report -- the

 2     rapport or the links that Mrs. Del Ponte had with the former

 3     Prime Minister Djindjic, so if you're contesting those links and the

 4     indictment, if I understand correctly, would be tainted because -- in a

 5     way because the indictment would be, according to you, carried out

 6     according to a request made by the prime minister at the time, you would

 7     have to put down in writing, black on white, by way of a motion so that

 8     the Trial Chamber be seized by this motion.  The Prosecutor, of course,

 9     as well can answer or reply if the indictment is contested or challenged,

10     and then the Trial Chamber will render a decision.

11             You must understand that this cannot be done orally.  We must

12     follow the administrative ways.

13             You have the right, and Mr. Marcussen recognises it.  He says

14     that if in the book some excerpts concern you, you have the right, by way

15     of a motion, to request that those passages be translated to you in your

16     own language so that you can back your submission.  This is a possibility

17     that you have.

18             You're saying that you're expecting something from the

19     Trial Chamber, and I am telling you that we will intervene if -- or after

20     receiving your submissions, your arguments, and after receiving also the

21     submissions presented by the Prosecutor.  At this point in time, I am not

22     excluding anything.

23             I'm also -- I could even ask Mrs. Carla Del Ponte to come and

24     explain what she meant.  Nothing is impossible, but I am expecting you to

25     present your submissions.  You have a team that works with you.  They can

Page 6353

 1     very well draft this motion.

 2             Mr. Seselj.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think what

 4     happened as a problem by far exceeds the interests of one accused in one

 5     case.

 6             Of course, I am able already by tomorrow to prepare a written

 7     filing, and they will do that and I will fax it to you tomorrow.

 8     However, I'm drawing attention to two very major issues which do not

 9     affect only my interests in this case, but unless there is a reaction to

10     them, they undermine the entire Tribunal.

11             I remind you of Article 16 of the Statute, and it says that the

12     Prosecutor must act independently as a separate body of the

13     International Tribunal.  He may not ask or receive instructions from any

14     government or any other source.  That is what the Statute says.

15             And in the book by Carla Del Ponte, it says:  "Djindjic, in

16     connection with Seselj, has sent me only one request.  'Take him away and

17     don't send him back again.'"  This is stated in Carla Del Ponte's book.

18             This is not a question of my interests in this case, but as

19     regards my interest, I will submit my submissions already tomorrow.  But

20     this is of far greater importance for this Tribunal.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will then be

22     seized with a motion.

23             Mr. Marcussen, did you want to say something?  No, you're sitting

24     down.  Very well.

25             Mr. Seselj, do you have another issue to raise?

Page 6354

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only if this may be of interest to

 2     you.

 3             I can give you a copy of the statement of Witness VS-1031,

 4     addressed to my legal associates.  I now have the original of the

 5     statement with the original stamp, and a few copies if this may be of

 6     interest to you.  This is my first contact with this witness by my legal

 7     assistants.  And I also have a copy for a representative of the

 8     Prosecution.  If you wish to have a copy, I could ask the usher to be

 9     kind enough to give it to you.

10             One can see here that he stated that after Ramush Haradinaj was

11     acquitted on the 3rd of April, he --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, VS-1031 certainly

13     benefits from protective measures.  Let's not disclose any names which

14     would enable to identify the person.

15             You are handing me a statement signed by his own hand, in your

16     own -- in your language, which I don't speak.  I don't know what this

17     contains.  It's not 1031, it's 031, it's Witness VS-031.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I won't mention his

19     name at all.  I just draw your attention to a sentence where he says that

20     on the 3rd of April, he learned that Haradinaj was acquitted.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  There's no basis for the accused to read out any

22     parts of a statement from a witness who is to testify before the Court

23     without the witness being here.  If there's some procedural point the

24     accused wants to raise, he can do that, but we're once again in a

25     situation where the accused reads out statements that have been presented

Page 6355

 1     to him.  It's completely out of context, and the accused should make some

 2     proper use of court time and not read out these sort of statements in

 3     this way in the courtroom.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             Mr. Seselj, you are producing this document.  It is not necessary

 7     to read, of course, this document, but what are you getting at, exactly?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted the Trial Chamber to

 9     decide what to do, whether they will continue to insist on this witness

10     being a Prosecution witness, or whether he'll be a Defence witness, or no

11     witness at all.  As far as I know, you issued a subpoena for this

12     witness.  Is that right?  I'm not quite certain about that, but I think

13     so.

14             Whether there was this formal pressure in the form of a subpoena

15     or pressure from the Prosecution, he was due to come here last week.  I

16     don't know exactly what happened, but clearly one can see from this

17     statement that under no circumstances will he be a witness for the

18     Prosecution.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It might seem an odd request, but in light of the

20     impact that some of these statements have on witnesses outside the

21     courtroom, I would respectfully ask the Trial Chamber if we can redact

22     this part of what has just been going on in the transcript.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow

24     Judges.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6356

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

 2     has deliberated on this and is deciding not to redact what has just been

 3     said.  However, the Trial Chamber would like to indicate that whenever it

 4     is running into a problem that it becomes aware of, either through the

 5     Prosecution, through the witness, or through the accused, the

 6     Trial Chamber rules on this.  There can be different decisions, there's

 7     different solutions.  It can be a contempt of court, a subpoena, wait and

 8     see.  There are different solutions.  And as of now, we have not decided

 9     anything, so there is no reason to mention the problem.

10             You attracted our attention on a new element, and we will

11     incorporate it when we assess the problem, but as of now we have not

12     decided anything.  Therefore, please move on to another topic.

13             If you have no other topic to raise, I have a question for you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no other issues to raise.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is my last

16     question.

17             Last week, you briefly said something, and I did not have time to

18     ask you some more information on this, because we were running out

19     of time, and this came right after a good number of other events.  But

20     out of memory, I can say that last week, after different problems

21     connected with cross-examination and the 92 ter, Rule 92 ter, you said

22     that you envisaged -- that you were going to - I don't really know what

23     you wanted, but you said that if need be, you were thinking of not

24     showing any evidence when you were presenting your own case.  This is

25     what I understood at least, and I wondered whether this had to do with

Page 6357

 1     Rule 92 ter, or whether this has to do with something else, or whether

 2     you believe that at this stage, there was no need to present any

 3     evidence.  You were not clear enough, and I did not really understand, so

 4     could you please explain what you meant at the time?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as opposed to some

 6     Prosecution witnesses who have a perfect memory and remember all the

 7     details which occurred 15 or 16 years ago, my memory is not quite so

 8     precise.  But as far as I can remember, I didn't link this possibility

 9     only to 92 ter witnesses, and surely this can be found in the transcript,

10     but I said if you continue to take away Defence witnesses, and unless the

11     problem of financing is resolved, there is a possibility that there will

12     not be a Defence case.  I wasn't emphatic, nor was it a decision.  I said

13     that this was a possibility, something that I had started to think about.

14             My Defence team has still not made a final decision about this,

15     and to the best of my recollection, I have now explained what it is I

16     intimated last week.

17             May I repeat once again, if there are many 92 ter witnesses, if

18     you snatch away from me Defence witnesses, and there are already 20 of

19     them that the Prosecution is counting on as their witnesses, though they

20     have signed a statement saying that they would be Defence witnesses, and

21     if the problem of financing is not resolved, it will not be possible to

22     have a Defence case.

23             And the last time we discussed finances, I said I wouldn't raise

24     it again until we reached the Defence case stage.  If it's not resolved

25     by then, I don't see how I can produce evidence in my Defence.  I already

Page 6358

 1     have great problems with my associates, because they're not receiving any

 2     remuneration, even though they're doing such a lot of hard work, more

 3     than any other Defence counsel.  And trusting my word, they have been

 4     working very hard and very diligently, and now it appears that I have

 5     cheated them, I have misled them.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Regarding the technical issue of financing your Defence, two or

 8     three weeks ago, I don't remember the exact date, the Trial Chamber took

 9     stock of the situation and it seems that this is how things stand at the

10     moment.  Registry was making some research on your indigency status,

11     because all this can only work if the Registry notes -- the translation

12     is not working?

13             Very well.  Obviously, there was a technical problem.  Let me

14     resume.  Regarding this very technical issue of how your Defence is to be

15     financed -- and while I'm talking I would like the usher to remove the

16     blind because there's no need for the blind to be there.  So regarding

17     the very technical item of your -- financing of your Defence, two or

18     three weeks ago, I can't remember the exact date, but the Trial Chamber

19     took stock of the situation with the competent services at Registry, and

20     according to the information we obtained, the Registrar was checking

21     whether you were still an indigent through different steps, through a

22     series of steps that the Registry is taking.

23             This is a two-stage approach.  The principle of payment is

24     accepted, but before paying, the Registrar must absolutely make sure that

25     you are truly indigent, and this is where there is a lock -- a checking

Page 6359

 1     system that the Registry is -- this is where the Registry is at.  And

 2     obviously so far the Registrar has not -- is not convinced that you are

 3     fully indigent.  So you may be fully indigent, partially indigent.  I

 4     don't know what your financial status is.

 5             The Registrar has met with you, has sent you letters, and

 6     probably asked you to answer a number of questions put to you by him.

 7     The Trial Chamber is not meant to intervene in the everyday running of

 8     this Tribunal, except if at one point in time there is an infringement, a

 9     serious infringement of the rights of the Defence.  In such a case, the

10     Trial Chamber either proprio motu or on request can take steps and

11     intervene, but as of now we have been told that they were checking

12     whether you were truly indigent.

13             This is where things stand at the moment.  If they have proof

14     that you cannot pay these sums because of your destitution, they will pay

15     your associates.  There's no problem there.  This is the direct

16     consequence of the decision made on how you are to finance your Defence,

17     but the lock, because this is a true lock, is the question:  Is

18     Mr. Seselj truly indigent?  And I think I'm reading between the lines,

19     but I believe the Registrar so far has not been fully convinced that you

20     are totally indigent.  And the burden of proof, I'm sure you know this,

21     the burden of proof is on you.  The accused must absolutely demonstrate

22     and prove that he is indigent.  He has the onus of that.  And obviously

23     the Registrar so far seems to say that as things stand now, he is not

24     fully convinced that you are truly indigent.  This is where we stand now.

25             For three or four weeks, the Trial Chamber has set this problem

Page 6360

 1     aside, because last time you told us officially that you would no longer

 2     raise it.  But you've just raised it again, which obviously means that

 3     the problem has not been solved yet.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'd like to tell you that the

 5     question of determining whether you're indigent or not depends to a great

 6     extent on whether you fully collaborate with the Registry.  You are to

 7     collaborate with the Registry to determine what your financial situation

 8     is.  It all depends on you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judges, I wouldn't

10     have raised this issue at all, but I was only illustrating the reasons

11     why I intimated that I might refrain from producing Defence evidence.  I

12     really think that the discussion regarding the financing of my Defence

13     has been completed.  Whatever I had to do with the Registrar, I did so by

14     2003.  I will not collaborate by providing information about the property

15     of members of my family.

16             The fact that the Registrar doesn't believe me, doesn't trust me,

17     it's up to him.  That Registrar will never believe anything I say.  You

18     remember how I criticised him for his behaviour on the basis of the

19     Milosevic transcript.  There's the language of facts and there's the

20     language of guesswork.  According to the language of facts, he doesn't

21     have any arguments to show that I'm capable of playing my Defence.

22             What does it mean, that I am indigent?  I have four children.

23     Three are under age, and my wife is not working.  So I'm not in a poor

24     financial status in relation to conditions in Serbia, but not high enough

25     for me to cover the costs of Defence in this Tribunal, which are much

Page 6361

 1     higher than in any national court.  That is the situation.  I am not

 2     poor, I am not so poor that I don't have bread to eat, but from what I

 3     have, nothing can be separated because the children would have nothing to

 4     eat.

 5             And the Registrar must provide a report about what he has found.

 6     Ever since 2003, he hasn't done it.  A real study about it.  He has done

 7     it in all the other cases.  He hasn't done it in my case.  I consider my

 8     cooperation with the Registrar completed.  If he has evidence that I'm

 9     capable of paying my own Defence, let him produce the evidence.  He

10     undertook the investigation, not me.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're telling us

12     that you have four children, four [as interpreted] that are still minor,

13     and that your wife does not work.  I assume that in your country, in

14     Serbia, there are tax return files.  I guess Serbian citizens pay their

15     taxes when they have income.  And even if they don't have any income,

16     they have to file a tax return, an income tax report.  I guess that your

17     wife has to file an income tax report, just like you do.  If you made

18     this tax -- income tax return for 2005, 2006 and 2007, you must have a

19     copy of them, and normally on the tax file, you know exactly what the

20     financial standing of a person is.  If, on this tax report, it says that

21     neither your wife nor you can be taxed for income tax, it proves that

22     you're indigent.

23             Why won't you communicate a document of the kind to the Registry?

24     This would prove that you are willing to collaborate to this procedure to

25     find out whether you're indigent or not.  The best solution would be for

Page 6362

 1     you to give the Registrar a copy of all your income tax reports.  I'm

 2     sure that they would give an idea of your true situation, your true

 3     financial standing, because if the Registry has doubts on your real

 4     estate property, for example, or on your possible stocks that you may

 5     have, in case you had accounts -- bank accounts outside Serbia or if you

 6     had property outside Serbia, maybe in the countries where you lived for a

 7     few years, why don't you ask those banks to give you a certificate

 8     proving exactly how much money is on those bank accounts?

 9             Everything is very simple.  Independently of your personal

10     situation, with this position, you know, you're jeopardising four people

11     who have been working for you.  I'm not going to give any names, but

12     everybody knows this, Mr. Krasic [Realtime transcript read in error

13     "Krajisnik"] mainly, all these people who've been working for you.  Or

14     maybe they did this voluntarily and free of charge.  I said Krasic, not

15     Krajisnik, K-R-A-S-I-C.  So maybe these people are waiting for a salary,

16     and maybe it's the position that you've adopted that no payment is

17     possible.

18             To sum things up, you have the possibility of giving the Registry

19     your income tax reports.  This is probably very straightforward.  And you

20     could also send to the Registry your bank statements on your foreign bank

21     accounts, if you have any.  You cannot ask the Trial Chamber to become

22     accountants or tax experts in order to check your financial standing.  We

23     could do this, but we have many other things to do, we have much more on

24     our plate.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have provided all

Page 6363

 1     the figures to the Registrar in due course.  It's a good thing that you

 2     raised the question of tax returns.

 3             In Serbia, there's a minimum on annual income below which no tax

 4     is payable, nor is it reported.  My family and I were always below this

 5     minimum.  We were never liable to taxes, neither me nor my family, when

 6     it comes to annual income.

 7             And the Registry has received from the state authorities in

 8     Serbia all the necessary information.  There's really no need to discuss

 9     this matter further.  I really wouldn't have raised it if you hadn't

10     asked me about this possibility that I had mentioned of refraining from

11     producing Defence evidence.  I wouldn't have mentioned it, really.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             It's time to adjourn.  We will resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m., and

14     this hearing will be devoted to the videos.  I think there's about an

15     hour and a half or two hours worth of videos, so that will keep us busy

16     for the morning.

17             Have a nice day, and we will resume tomorrow.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.40 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day

20                           of April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.