1 Wednesday, 23 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
8 everyone in the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Vojislav Seselj.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam
13 We are Wednesday, the 23rd of April, 2008. I would like to
14 welcome the members of the OTP and I would also like to welcome
15 Mr. Seselj, as well as all the other people in and around the courtroom.
16 Exceptionally today, we are in Courtroom number II because the
17 other courtrooms were unavailable. This does not really have an impact
18 on our case, because today's day is dedicated to video viewing, and this
19 is going to be conducted in open session.
20 The accused -- or the Prosecution, actually, is a chart for us.
21 Is that right?
22 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President.
23 Good morning to Your Honours and to everyone in and around the
24 courtroom. My colleague, Mr. Mussemeyer, will be dealing with the videos
25 today, but we have circulated a list, and I'll turn the matter over to
1 Ms. Mussemeyer for further discussion.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.
3 We have 15 video clips prepared for this morning. The first
4 one -- the first six ones deal with the topic of a Greater Serbia, and
5 the first video has the ERN number 6021. It has -- my case manager
6 corrected me. The 65 ter number is 6021F. The ERN number is VOOO-3780.
7 It's clip F. The Prosecution received this tape from the Croatian
8 government on the 3rd of January, 2002, and it will last about one minute
9 and 20 seconds. May I correct me [sic], it's not clip F, it's clip G.
10 [Videotape played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I mean, it's a question of an
12 artificial state under Tito, grotesquely created. It could only have
13 been like that under communist dictatorship. Under natural conditions,
14 the stronger one dominates.
15 "Well, if Slovenia
16 "Well, I you can now if you'd rather have Serb or German
17 domination. I think you would feel better under German domination. If
18 nothing else, you will better. That is the most important thing for you,
19 anyway. You all speak German. It is not hard for you."
20 "Okay. That can --"
21 "You will be Germany
22 "And where will you have a seaside?
23 "As far as we're concerned we have Serbian seaside Temuci [phoen]
24 to Karlobag.
25 "And Dubrovnik
1 "And which other one? For example, Split, Sibinik, Zadar, that
2 these are all Serbian cities, I think that would be difficult."
3 "You might think that it is difficult and you might be looking
4 forward to the less fortunate others, if your primary goal is to make it
5 more difficult for the Serbs, you're going to make it more difficult, but
6 we are especially inspired by difficulties. We will achieve our goals,
7 and then we will turn toward you and make you pay for making things
8 difficult for us. Therefore, you should not be preoccupied by making it
9 more difficult for Serbs, making it difficult for Macedonians, Croats,
10 Siptars, Muslims. You should pay attention only to your own interests if
11 you wish to achieve something."
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. The microphone was
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you check this out? There's a
15 lot of interference. It's disappeared now, the noise.
16 The first question poses itself here, and that's the relevance of
17 the footage. The Prosecutor didn't emphasise that it was an interview to
18 Slovenian Television and that it was Serbian-Slovenian relations and my
19 advocating Slovenian independence.
20 Now, here there's mention about the Serb cities on the Adriatic
21 coast and how far the Serb part of the Adriatic coast stretches for, and
22 then the Prosecutor should offer up evidence that that is not the way I
23 put it, that that is not how I state it. I still state that from Utzim
24 [phoen] to Karlobag is the Serb coastline.
25 Now, the Prosecution is not leading any evidence against that,
1 except the de facto state under occupation. First of all, there was
2 communist occupation. Now we have American-NATO occupation. However,
3 the situation is quite unnatural.
4 So if you go back, revert to the natural situation, then the Serb
5 coast will stretch to Karlobag, and we'll see what happens with Italy
6 what belongs to Italy
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Your observations
8 are noted on the transcript.
9 Can we have the number, please, Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. This will become Exhibit number 385.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER: May I mention also that part of this interview
13 has been published in Mr. Seselj's book. It's on the outline I gave to
14 the Trial Chamber and also to Mr. Seselj.
15 The second video again deals with a Greater Serbia. It has the
16 65 ter number 1836C. The ERN number is --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection before the next footage.
18 It's not that one part of this interview was published in my book. The
19 interview in its entirety was published in my book. I don't have the
20 attachment here. By mistake, I brought in the previous piece of paper,
21 because when I moved, all my documents got mixed up, but I can remember
22 them and tell you from my head all this was published in my book in its
23 entirety, not just a portion of it.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber notes that
25 the entire interview conducted with the Slovenian reporter is published
1 in your book, which was published in Belgrade in 1993, according to the
2 document presented to us by the Prosecutor.
3 Please go on. The.
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I continue with the second clip. It's again
5 under the topic Greater Serbia. It has the 65 ter number 1836C. It has
6 the ERN number V000-0278. It's about one minute and eight seconds long.
7 It was broadcasted in May 1993, and the tape was received from the
8 Serbian TV a long time ago, and we don't know -- we cannot exactly
9 identify when and where we got it from, but we got it from the Serbian
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And in -- on the other hand,
13 things will be developing in the completely opposite direction to what
14 Slobodan Milosevic experts and what Alija Izetbegovic expects. There
15 will be no Muslim state in the area of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina will be divided into the Serbian and the Croatian
17 part. I can draw you now a sketch of the border where it will be carried
18 out: That is, Zvijezda Mountain
19 around Zavidovici. I cannot say precisely whether Zavidovici would be on
20 the Serbian or Croatian side. Approximately here. The Olovo-Maglaj line
21 will be completely in Serbian hands, and the border with Croatia
22 around Travnik and then will lead towards the line of contact from the
23 north, between Republika Srpska and Herceg-Bosna. There will be more
24 complication from the south, of course, in the area of the Neretva Valley
25 and the exit to the Adriatic Sea, but it is possible that these issues
1 will be resolved in the course of negotiations. Nothing will remain of
2 the Muslim state because Europe
3 its own territory, and it will be proved that the Muslims are the
4 greatest victims of this war. Reason for all that is their stupidity and
5 the belief that someone from abroad would be willing to create a state
6 for them."
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the technicians
8 playing the tape are not turning off the apparatus. I think that's why I
10 Once again I raise the question of relevance here. I am
11 presenting a very truthful fact here, that Europe doesn't want to see a
12 Muslim state, that Europe
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croats be held as hostages in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there's some nonexistent Bosnia-Herzegovinian
15 state, whereas it's clear to everyone that a state like that can only
16 exist while it is under foreign occupation. As soon as the foreign
17 troops are withdrawn and the foreign governor, which is called the high
18 representative, then the state will disintegrate and might enter into a
19 civil war once again.
20 So the question is : What does the Prosecution want to achieve
21 by presenting this footage? I am presenting truthful facts, and the
22 Prosecutors are surprised that I'm not saying that, that I'm not saying
23 all the stupidities that western politicians say, that Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 will remain as a state, that it will be equitable with other states, that
25 it will be a unitarian state and that constitutional reforms will take
1 place, it will have a united police and army and so on. As long as
2 there's coercion and it's under that coercion, it exists, but when it
3 disappears, the state will disappear.
4 So what does the prosecution wish to show and prove by showing
5 this footage? The prosecution is proving nothing. It's saying to you,
6 Judges, this is the what he's like, that's the kind of man he is. And
7 I'm very proud of being that kind of man. And what's relevant as far as
8 the indictment is concerned is nothing.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Before I ask Madam
10 Registrar for a number, I would like to make an observation.
11 The footage that we just saw, according to the Prosecutor's
12 document, is a discussion in a group, or we saw Mr. Seselj -- we see
13 Mr. Seselj on the screen, but Mr. Tomislav Nikolic was also present at
14 this discussion, as well as Mr. Aleksandar Vucic, and there was a fourth
15 person, Nikola Poplasen, who was equally there.
16 I also note that the footage and -- the footage belonging to this
17 video starts with the word "the." Mr. Seselj, actually, answers a
18 question that we do not hear. We do not -- what was the question put to
19 him, and he gives an answer. He says, "Yes," and he goes on. So this is
20 an observation on my part.
21 Madam Registrar, may we have a number, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, if possible, could you tell
24 the Prosecutor to provide me with a copy of the list, and then I can help
25 out and identify the footage on the video if I have it in front of me,
1 because I wasn't really able to find that piece of paper. I was moved on
2 Monday again, so I wasn't able to find that latest list.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You will be
4 provided with this document, but could we have a number first.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 I address myself to the prosecution. You also prepared a
9 document for the transcript. Would you be able to print in B/C/S and in
10 English this document and to hand it to Mr. Seselj, please.
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Certainly, Your Honour. We will have to wait a
12 minute that it will get printed. Thanks.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we can continue. There's no
14 problem there. We can move on.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's proceed with video
16 number 3.
17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Video number 3 is 65 ter number 1836D. It has
18 the ERN number V000-0278. It's about a minute long. It deals with visit
19 of Professor Seselj to Glogovica, close to Sarajevo, and it took place
20 the 14th of May, 1993. We received, again, this tape from the Serbian TV
21 a long time ago. Like the former one, we cannot identify when exactly we
22 got this video clip.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Well, the Serbian people of
25 Republika Srpska and Serbian Sarajevo hold a referendum, I am convinced
1 that they unanimously decided to reject the Vance-Owen Plan, and the
2 Western forces should know that the Serbian man will not surrender here,
3 that the Serbian man will never capitulate. The Serbian people are in
4 favour of peace, we insist on a truce and the peace plan, but if someone
5 wants sincere peace, then it should be agreed that borders be put at
6 front lines. This is the only way. And if foreign military intervention
7 takes place, thousands and thousands of members of interventionist forces
8 will get killed here, and we will bring thousands of volunteers in from
9 the other side of the Drina River
10 volunteers, and take Sarajevo
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, the problem of relevance.
12 First of all, it is true that I was against the Vance-Owen Plan and it
13 fell through, so what does the Prosecution intend to prove with that?
14 That I'm always against Western forces and against NATO? Well, that's
15 quite true, yes, I am always opposed to them. So if that's the subject
16 of the indictment, you needn't hold a trial anymore. I am against the
17 European Union and certainly of NATO. That's the first point.
18 The second point is if there is foreign military intervention
19 here, then I say so many people will be killed, members of the
20 invasionary forces, and that we will send in volunteers and call up
21 Russian volunteers and all the rest of it and that we will take Sarajevo
22 by storm. So if there is foreign military intervention, that's something
23 we can do too, but where's the relevance there as far as the indictment
24 is concerned?
25 Once again, they're working according to the principle, "see what
1 kind of man he is," and I told you in advance that I agree that you
2 proclaim me the worst man in the world, and I acknowledge that, I'm ready
3 to acknowledge that, that I'm the worst man in the world, but I want you
4 to prove that I committed a crime, and you cannot do that, because
5 although I am the worst man in the world, I have not committed a crime,
6 and this deals with nothing here.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Can we get a number, please, for this exhibit, for this video
9 clip. Your commentaries are in the transcript. You say that this
10 document is not relevant. The Trial Chamber will judge for itself.
11 What is the number, please?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Number 387, P387.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The next video clip deals again with a Greater
16 The ERN number is V000-1516. It's clip A. We received this video from
17 the AID Sarajevo
18 I can tell you later.
19 Let's play the clip.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. Before we
21 play this footage, Mr. Mussemeyer and Mr. Mundis, I noted in the opening
22 statements that there were some reference to the videos, and I have to
23 tell you, in your pre-trial brief, you mention that. I don't know if the
24 videos you are presenting today are in the pre-trial brief. If some of
25 the footage figure in the pre-trial brief, in the footnotes, you should
1 tell us so that we can be even more attentive while viewing this footage.
2 I did not check this time, but you should be able to know if these video
3 clips that are shown are mentioned in your pre-trial brief. If that is
4 so, please tell us.
5 Very well. And so under reserve, we will look at the footage
7 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I may add I found when we got this document,
8 it's the 1st of July, 1998, and the submission date was the 27th of
9 August, 1998
10 moment to tell you which of these videos were mentioned in the pre-trial
11 brief. I can do this later. I must check.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The Serbian radicals will never
15 give up on the Western Serbian border, and one day we will realise the
16 Karlovac-Virovitica line as the Serbian border."
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecution here
18 is trying to prove indubitable facts. Why is the Prosecution trying to
19 prove that when it's not challenged? I said that in my introduction. I
20 confirmed that by cross-examining that alleged witness, French member of
21 the intelligence service, alleged expert. That's indisputable, and now
22 the Prosecution is amassing evidence for this indisputable fact.
23 If you just want to fill in the time, I understand them, then.
24 They have no witnesses today, no witnesses tomorrow, so let's fill the
25 time up with something. That's all we're doing here. They're not able
1 to prove anything.
2 Greater Serbia
3 Radical Party. It will go on after my life, probably my successor's
4 life. There's a primary programme, there's a medium stage programme, but
5 it's the most long-term programme of the Serbian Radical Party, and I
6 explained to you what it means. It means making the Serb Catholics and
7 the Serb Muslims more aware of themselves, eliminating foreign
8 influences, the Vatican
10 But what does the Prosecution want to prove by this, something
11 that is not challenged in the first place, that is indubitable?
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have two problems.
13 One is a technical problem. I can never hear the end of the
14 interpretation of what you are saying in the footage because you start
15 intervening while the French interpretation is still going on.
16 The second thing. I would kindly ask you to limit yourself in
17 your comments. Allow us to work as well. The Trial Chamber must also
18 work. You are substituting, with your commentaries, the evaluation of
19 the Trial Chamber. Try to be a little bit more succinct in your
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we please get a number,
22 Madam Registrar.
23 One moment, please, Mr. Seselj.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit number is P388.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely have no intention of
2 depriving the Chamber of any right, and how can I deprive the Chamber of
3 any rights? There's nothing I can do to the Chamber. You can do
4 everything to me, because I'm in your hands. I can do nothing to you.
5 All I can do is to verbally oppose you, but in this way I'm drawing
6 attention to the fact that you do not have the same criteria to the
7 offered evidence by the Defence and the evidence of the Prosecution. It
8 is already evident that you are prone to filling the files with
9 irrelevant evidence of the Prosecution, and the important evidence that I
10 offered at the beginning, you rejected, so I'm not offering any further
11 evidence. So that is the gist of it.
12 Do we need to encumber the case with irrelevant and superfluous
13 evidence? Do we need in the proceedings to prove something that is
14 undisputed? If it is undisputed between the Defence and the Prosecution,
15 and that is the concept of a Greater Serbia, which is the long-term
16 programme of the Serbian Radical Party, everyone knows that, why do we
17 need to prove it? If that is the only way to fill in the time so that
18 the trial should not be in a crisis, then I understand. We're doing all
19 this to fill in the time. But if -- I don't understand that it is really
20 indispensable to include this in the file.
21 My comments are very brief, and I am focusing only on the gist of
22 what is being offered here.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's view the following video,
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The topic of the next two videos is again
1 Greater Serbia
2 a municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's a removed
3 municipality, but the Prosecution is allowed to lead pattern evidence.
4 That is the reason we are playing these two videos.
5 The first of these video has the 65 ter number 6048B. The ERN
6 number is V000-1506. It's about one minute and 30 seconds' long. It
7 deals with Mr. Blagojevic, who was a vojvoda or who was appointed vojvoda
8 by Mr. Seselj in 1993. We got this tape from the AID Sarajevo agency.
9 Maybe that I can -- yeah, the date is the same like the video we showed
11 Thank you.
12 [Videotape played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Did you expect war to break out in
15 "Well, the war, although we had -- I had at that time already
16 established the board of the Serbian Radical Party here, and according to
17 our analyses and our views, war was inevitable. We undertook a massive
18 campaign to prevent the war from breaking out. We called on our Muslim
19 brothers not to allow themselves to be the object of external
20 manipulation, to be manipulated by the Croats, Austria and Germany
21 they would only lose what they already had. Our words, however, went
22 unheeded, and what happened was the war started.
23 "There is, in fact, a communique here, released on the 15th of
24 October, 1991. It was precisely here that we, the Serbian Radical Party
25 for northeastern Bosnia
1 parties, both parliamentary and non-parliamentary ones, to continue to
2 seek a peaceful political solution while there was still peace, for in
3 wartime and after war, no solutions would be suitable to anyone. But
4 that is as it may be.
5 "The way things stand now, we shall certainly get a state of our
6 own in this territory. The Muslims will never get one. For we have
7 nothing against them getting a state of their own, but I know for a fact
8 that the West does not want any kind of Muslim state on the soil of the
9 Balkans or Europe
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One question for
11 Mr. Mussemeyer.
12 Mr. Blagojevic, who exactly is he?
13 MR. MUSSEMEYER: He is the local leader, if I may say so, of the
14 Serbs in Bijeljina. He was appointed vojvoda by Mr. Seselj. I think it
15 was the 13th of May, 1993. We saw videos about this in former sessions,
16 and he is responsible for Bijeljina. And as the Prosecution thinks, he
17 took part and organised the takeover of Bijeljina by the Serb forces in
18 the end of March, beginning of April, 1992.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] "Blagojevic" is a very common
20 name, Mr. Prosecutor. Do you know the first name of this person, the
22 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Blagojevic, and Mirko is the first name. And if
23 you want to read, I think you'll have to go to the order of Mr. Seselj.
24 The number is 124, where he was listing all the vojvodas at that time,
25 and there appears also Mr. Blagojevic.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Seselj.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mirko Blagojevic is today a
4 president of the Serbian Radical Party of Republika Srpska. He's a
5 prominent Serb patriot. In the last term, he was a national deputy in
6 the federal assembly in Sarajevo
7 Now, what does the Prosecution wish to offer with this clip?
8 What is relevant here? Mirko Blagojevic is presenting a political
9 thesis. Is that prohibited, is it wrong? This can only be exculpatory
10 material, because it is true that we Serb radicals persistently, as soon
11 as the war broke out in Croatia
12 avoidance of bloodshed, avoiding a conflict, avoiding the secession of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, because it was quite clear to everyone that if
14 secession occurred, war would break out.
15 What does the Prosecution want? I see that the Chamber is not
16 raising the question of relevance. That is why I'm doing it. Of course,
17 I don't expect you to accept my objections, but in the interests of the
18 public, I think it is necessary for me to make those objections.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely not, Mr. Seselj.
20 Everything you say is very carefully heard by us. It is checked, all
21 transcripts, the French transcripts and the English transcripts.
22 As an example, too, something really struck me from what you just
23 said. The person being interviewed is talking about his Muslim brothers,
24 and, secondly, he's also saying that he set up the council of the Serbian
25 Radical Party for the north or west of Bosnia; I can't really remember.
1 But this is not pointless, and we will now give this footage a number,
2 please, Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will become Exhibit
4 number P389.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next footage, please.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, the next video deals again with
7 Mirko Blagojevic and with Bijeljina. The topic is again Greater Serbia.
8 It has the 65 ter number 6048C [Realtime transcript read in error
9 "6548C"]. The ERN number is V000-1056. Again, the source where the OTP
10 received this video is the same like before, it's the AID of Sarajevo
11 agency. And the clip is about one minute and 29 seconds' long.
12 [Videotape played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You have identified yourself as a
14 member of the Serbian Radical Party. What are your views on the current
16 "Right now, the radicals' opinions are those that the people
17 readily understand. We have a clear programme and objective. We are
18 fighting for a Greater Serbia. There is no --"
19 "Does a Greater Serbia exist?"
20 "A Greater Serbia does exist, and it has been created."
21 "Where are its borders?"
22 "Now the borders run parallel with the front lines."
23 "Is there a border on Drina and should there be one?"
24 "Well, I am greatly pleased to hear these signals, that the
25 sanctions against Serbia
1 shouldered, it has paid a high price for our freedom and our state.
2 There is no frontier on the Drina
3 blockade will also be short-lived. It is porous, and, in any case,
5 go hungry, then we'll be very hungry, very hungry indeed."
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. It is the same as the
8 previous one. A politician, a prominent politician of the Serbian
9 Radical Party, is presenting his views, and what is incriminating in this
10 opinion? The Prosecution is not offering anything incriminating. It is
11 offering a document without any substantiation. If it is meant to be
12 incriminating, it should be linked to the indictment issued against me.
13 These are two things that are absolutely vague. It is even unreasonable
14 to offer something like this into evidence without any explanation.
15 Mirko Blagojevic is a reputed politician. He presents the views
16 of his party, his personal views. What is the problem there? He's
17 making that statement in 1994, outside the framework of the indictment
18 against me. You have heard that he already mentions the blockade on the
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, I see in the transcript that it
22 is on page 16, line number 23, that the 65 ter number is referred to as
23 "6548 Charlie." Is that the correct number or was it 6048?
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's 6048C.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Let that be corrected in the
1 transcript. Thanks.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's give a number
3 to this, and I will make a brief comment on this afterwards.
4 Ms. Registrar, could we please have a number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... Exhibit P390.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. My comment deals with the
7 relevance which is challenged by Mr. Seselj.
8 The witness -- not the witness, but the person interviewed talks
9 about Greater Serbia
11 Secondly, he's also saying something that could prove very
12 interesting, and I quote exactly what he said:
13 "Borders are parallel to the front lines."
14 So this is a sentence that could prove extremely interesting.
15 The second thing regarding relevance: This person is in charge
16 of the Serbian Radical Party, and he is speaking. In the Serbian Radical
17 Party, there's a president, there are other people at different levels,
18 and here we have a leader at a certain level speaking out. This can be
19 quite interesting to hear this kind of person giving his opinion on a
20 number of elements.
21 Now let's continue, please, Mr. Mussemeyer.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an additional
24 In that case, the Prosecution should provide tapes of all the
25 statements of high officials of the Serbian Radical Party, because all of
1 them are advocating a Greater Serbia. The entire membership of the
2 Serbian Radical Party is advocating a Greater Serbia. This is an
3 undisputed fact. Someone who is not advocating a Greater Serbia could
4 not be a member of the Serbian Radical Party.
5 Should somebody appear as a member and present a defeatist thesis
6 that Greater Serbia is impossible, he would be expelled from the party.
7 So I don't know what the relevance is.
8 And bear something else in mind, please. The Serbian Radical
9 Party is registered in Serbia
10 Srpska is registered in Banja Luka. These are two separate parties which
11 share the same ideology. They cooperate amongst themselves. They even
12 have coordinating bodies, but they are two separate parties.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All the more so
14 that you should talk about this difference, the fact that there is two
15 political parties, one that is registered in Banja Luka and the other one
16 in Belgrade
17 two different entities. And this is now on the record.
18 Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor for the rest.
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: In the meantime, I could check our records and
20 have additional information related to Mirko Blagojevic. I referred
21 already to the order number 124 from Mr. Seselj. This order dates the
22 13th of May, 1993. It has the exhibit number 1841, and Mr. Blagojevic is
23 mentioned under number 2 in this order. So if there's any need to read
24 or to get more information, it's possible to find it from there.
25 I come back to the next two videos. We change a topic. It's now
1 recruitment of volunteers. The ERN number is -- the 65 ter number is
2 6008C. It was -- on the outline you got, there's a typo. You got
3 "6008A." It should read "C." The ERN number is V000-4260. The clip was
4 taken in the fall of 1991. It's about two minutes and eight seconds'
5 long, and the OTP received this clip from a protected witness. I will
6 not mention the name.
7 We do not receive any translation. There's a sound behind.
8 Maybe we have a technical problem which has to be resolved.
9 THE INTERPRETER: There was no sound. We apologise.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we play it again?
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is the fourth group sent to
13 the battlefield."
14 "How do volunteer detachments cooperate with Yugoslav People's
15 Army? Under whose command are they?
16 "The volunteers who are being sent to the hot spots in Croatia
17 the Serbian Radical Party have exceptionally good cooperation with
18 members of the Yugoslav People's Army. There are no more ideological
19 obstacles today, and we believe that the Croatian fascist authorities are
20 currently the only obstacles for the Serbian people in Croatia, the
21 Serbian people in Serbia
22 that we can handle them. All the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party
23 are under the Territorial Defence command and in joint action with the
24 Yugoslav People's army units, they are liberating Serbian land.
25 "The response is quite big. When is the next due to group leave?
1 "The next group will leave as soon as we get the confirmation
2 that these ones arrived safely.
3 "Do you already have new requisitions?
4 "We have new requisitions, indeed, and these days we plan to send
5 somewhere between 800 and 1.000 new volunteers, especially to Western
7 "This is unusual in the battlefield. What is your attitude
8 towards that?
9 "I think it is not and that we should all respond to this call.
10 I am also the mother of two underage children.
11 "Where are you from?
12 "From Pirat.
13 "How old are you?
15 "How did you decide?
16 "Well, when I watched television, I see what is going on and I
17 want to help, and this Serbia
18 "Who stayed with the children?
19 "Daddy stayed. That was the deal.
20 "Daddy stays, momma goes.
22 "That is a bit unusual as well.
23 "Well, it is. But that's me and I want to go.
24 "What do you expect there? Are you not scared?"
25 "Well, I am not now. I shall see. I expect us to win and to
1 come back.
2 "With a rifle in your arms?
3 "Well, yes.
4 "Have you ever held a rifle?
5 "As a high school student, that time when we went for target
6 practice. Next groups of volunteers will be leaving from the 4th of July
7 military barracks in Belgrade
8 trained shortly and get uniforms."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is exculpatory
10 material. The statement of Ljubisa Petkovic, the chief of staff of the
11 Serbian Radical Party, that all the volunteers were part of the
12 Territorial Defence under the Yugoslav People's Army. The Prosecution
13 has confirmed that the Territorial Defence was under JNA command, so I
14 don't see what is being proven here. Volunteers are in civilian clothes.
15 They need to go to the barracks to pick up their uniforms.
16 I'm glad that you are showing this video, because it recalls
17 my -- reminds me of those glorious times. But what is relevant here,
18 what is being proven here?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Number, please,
20 Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit
22 number P391.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, before we
24 proceed, I would like to tell something to Mr. Seselj.
25 He ended a sentence by saying, "What is relevant here?" I
1 absolutely do not understand this comment. What is relevant, in the
2 interests of justice, is to have the evidence and the elements that will
3 help Judges rule on matters that are in an indictment. All these
4 elements that we are seeing are -- is available evidence and elements
5 that will help Judges assess the situation.
6 If this video had not been admitted, we would not have known that
7 the volunteers were going to the 4th July barracks, where they were
8 handed uniforms and weapons. We would not have known that they were
9 under TO authority, which was collaborating with the JNA, and we would
10 not have known, and here I quote the person answering the reporter, we
11 would not have known that there had been dissent between the Serbian
12 Radical Party and the JNA, and that as of now, and I quote again this
13 person, "There is now no more barrier," adding that the main barrier were
14 the Croats. That's it.
15 If you don't want to have this type of video admitted, it's fine
16 for you, but this would be absolutely impossible to understand for us.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't say that I
18 didn't want it to be admitted. On the contrary, I said that it was
19 exculpatory material.
20 I must make a correction. The chief of staff didn't say that he
21 was fighting against the Croats, but against the Croatian Ustasha regime.
22 That was his statement; maybe not literally, but he's referring to the
23 Ustasha regime.
24 And the third point: We had a large number of evidence produced
25 so far about all this in the proceedings up to now, that there were
1 problems with the JNA in the beginning, when the JNA was neutral, even
2 more prone to support the Croats than the rebel Serbs, that the
3 volunteers had to cross the Danube
4 cooperation improved in September. All this has been established during
5 the proceedings. So in this way, we are amassing more evidence than has
6 already been presented and was confirmed. Of course, if that is what you
7 wish to do, I don't mind. I'm glad that this is being viewed, but I have
8 to make an objection. In fact, you have asked me to do that. I did my
9 best to make them brief.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Given that it seems that the --
11 what the person interviewed is saying is being challenged, because you
12 say he talked about the Ustasha Croatian regime. I thought he spoke
13 about the Croats. I think it would be best to play it again and listen
14 to it once more. That way, we will be sure to know exactly what was
16 Could we play again just the very beginning of the video, because
17 it's at the very beginning that the interviewer is talking about this.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is the fourth group sent into
20 the battlefield. How does cooperation between the volunteers detachment
21 and the Yugoslav People's Army developed and under whose command are
23 "The volunteers which the Serbian Radical Party sends to crisis
24 areas in Croatia
25 Yugoslav People's Army. Today, there are no ideological obstacles, and
1 we believe that the Croatian fascist authorities are currently the only
2 obstacle for the Serbian people in Croatia, the Serbian people in Serbia
3 and the Yugoslav People's Army members, and I think that we can handle
4 it. All the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party are under the
5 Territorial Defence command."
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. Mr. Seselj is right.
7 The exact words are "the Croatian fascist authorities." This is exactly
8 what I heard.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right. And may I also
10 add, since I viewed it again, you mentioned misunderstandings with the
11 JNA. Ljubisa Petkovic is clear in what he says. The previous
12 ideological problems have been overcome, because it used to be an
13 orthodox communist army, the red army in the proper sense of the word.
14 Do you remember, we had figures here when a valley was organised
15 in front of Tito's mausoleum, that the army wanted to attack us because
16 of that, but things had changed. The army was no longer Orthodox
17 communist, not to a sufficient extent, in our view, but it had changed.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move on to
19 the next video, now that everything has been cleared up.
20 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The next video is again under the topic
21 "Recruitment of volunteers." It bears the 65 ter number 6008B. The ERN
22 number is V000-4260. It's about one minute 20 seconds' long, and the
23 source is the same as the last video.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "These are the volunteers from
2 around noon
3 men but also the elderly from Belgrade
4 cities are going, as they have just said, in readiness to help the Serbs
5 in Slavonia
6 "The youngest child is 13 years old, a girl, and she will take
7 care of her brothers. I believe I can help and I want to help so that my
8 children and those other children could continue to live in peace.
9 "My son is going there because he's Serbian and because he's
10 having a hard time watching the Serbian people suffering over there.
11 "Are you the son?
12 "I am the son.
13 "Why are you going? Let me hear it from you.
14 "I'm going there for the Serbian people and for Serbia
15 believe it is my duty, one I have inherited from my father and my
16 grandfather. They are unable to. They are quite old. It is up to me.
17 I shall take back what belongs to Serbia. I'm going there because all my
18 family was killed at Jasenovac concentration camp during World War II. I
19 come from Banja. My origins are there. I grew up in Srem. Understand?
20 I'm going there just because of that, because I know what they are
21 doing -- what they have done during the war from 1941 to 1945."
22 "How old are you?"
23 "Sixty-three. "
24 "And you feel able?"
25 "I feel great, great. And I am going there with resolve and
1 enthusiasm. They do not know any fear. They have said they are only of
2 their own desire to end the tragedy of the endangered Serbs as soon as
3 possible and of their own willingness to help them in it."
4 THE INTERPRETER: The accused says he's very pleased that this
5 has been shown.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Madam Registrar, could we have a number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P392, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The next seven videos deal with the topic:
11 Instigation, hate speech.
12 The next video is 6006A. It has the ERN number V000-2125. It's
13 about six minutes and 15 seconds' long, and we got it from the RTV
15 received this videotape from Natasha Kandic on the 1st of April, 1996
16 The content is also published in Mr. Seselj's -- one of Mr. Seselj's
17 books. You have it on the outline. I don't read it out now.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Tell us, you have already talked a
21 lot about inter-ethnic relations. Tell us, in this context, how do you
22 think the Kosovo issue can be resolved?
23 "The communist measures currently enforced on territory of Kosovo
24 and Metohija have given certain results, but in the long run they cannot
25 provide the right solution. That is why we advocate much more radical
1 measures to be taken in Kosovo and Metohija. We advocate immediate
2 cessation and financial aid to Siptar ethnic minority, and we have
3 recently learned from the regime press that every day in Kosovo-Metohija
4 to the Siptars $1.500.000 from the fund for assistance to the
5 underdeveloped republics and provinces was sent, these means were mainly
6 used to finance their excessive procreation, expulsion of Serbs from this
7 vital historical territory of ours. We advocate abolishing
8 the university in the Siptar language as well all the cultural
9 institutions which were subsidized from the state budget.
10 "We have nothing against the Siptar minority having all this, but
11 they should finance it themselves with their own funds. Furthermore, we
12 advocate immediate termination of production in all factories that make
13 no profit due to silent Siptar boycotts of production. These people
14 should simply be fired, and then they should find their own way around.
15 If need be, we will provide all of them with passports, but we will no
16 longer finance them for doing nothing.
17 "Next, we think that all military and police academies, a
18 military institution, is not directly involved in the command over
19 certain army districts as well as certain state institutions should be
20 moved to Kosovo and Metohija, which would result in the moving of tens of
21 thousands of officers, non-commissioned officers, policemen, civil
22 servants, their families and all their structure to the territory of
23 Kosovo and Metohija. This would significantly change the total ethnic
24 picture of the population in Kosovo and Metohija. Furthermore, we
25 advocate opening mines, coal mines in Kosovo and Metohija immediately,
1 and wherever possible, the building of thermal-electric power plants.
2 Thanks to huge resources of coal in Kosovo-Metohija Serbia
3 one of the largest exporters of electrical energy in Europe. Where would
4 we build these thermal power plants? In places most densely populated by
5 the Siptars, where their fertile land is located, where their houses are.
6 We would be doing the same to them what they did to the Serbs since the
8 "The world would not be able to accuse us of anything. If they
9 say, 'You're displacing the Siptars,' we answer, 'Well, we have to
10 displace them. We're building thermal-electric power plants there.' The
11 thermal-electric power plants are the condition for brining social
12 standards and a higher living standard. We cannot move forward,
13 economically speaking, if we don't do that. This is done all over the
14 world, and nobody can object to that. We pay them fair financial
15 compensation, and you know how much it is, bearing in mind the permanent
16 inflation we've got, and no one can do anything about this.
17 "Arrests of the demonstrators prevention of their political
18 organisation and so on are measures that can give results for a short
19 term, but have no effect in the long run. The true key to solving the
20 Siptar -- to stopping the Siptar separatist rebellion lies in undertaking
21 economic measures. They should be forced by economic measures to give up
22 their separatism and a large number of them would then move out from
23 Kosovo because they would not be able to live if we stopped financing
24 them. Furthermore, we advocate --
25 "Yes, but don't you think you would be violating their rights
1 because of this?
2 "What rights? Let them find their way around. Let them find
3 their way around. Let them work. Produce. Let them find their way as
4 best as possible. In a free society, it is understood that everyone is
5 able to take care of themselves. Why would we -- is it their right to be
6 financed by us? That has been the case up 'till now but it will no
7 longer be so.
8 "Furthermore, we advocate that the 360.000 Albanian immigrants
9 who came to Serbia
10 urgently expelled from Serbia
11 to the United Nations High Commissioner of Refugees. They are so many
12 incomparably wealthy and bigger countries so they can take of them. Let
13 them do that for a change, show their humanity. Why would we, the Serbs,
14 be the ones to constantly prove our humanity, just to have these
15 Albanians immigrants return the favour by stabbing us in the back.
16 "Furthermore, and this would be one of the key measures as well,
17 we are in favour of pronouncing a stretch of some 20 to 50 kilometres
18 along the Albanian an area of strategic importance for Serbia and having
19 all the members of the Siptar national minority move to other parts of
21 territorial integrity and for which they would be given a fair financial
22 compensation. For example, they could be moved to the territories of the
23 present Croatia
24 most, and that they would be thrilled to accept this proposal of ours,
25 that they would welcome them with open arms. When proposing this, I'm
1 bearing in mind the fact that for quite some time it has been proved that
2 the true centre of Siptar separatist rebellion is neither Pristina or
3 Tirana, but Zagreb
4 should be given over to the army. The army would be reviving
5 agricultural production until conditions are met to populate the area
6 with Serb inhabitants on a more massive scale, all Serbs and members of
7 other national minorities on the territory of Serbia
8 Serbian state, we would allow them to go there. We would give them this
9 farm land free of charge. They would renew agricultural production
10 there, they form joint stock companies in places, and this would solve
11 the problem of the Siptar separatist rebellion. Otherwise, the Siptars
12 would win in the long run. Time is on their side unless these key
13 economic measures, these radical measures are undertaken."
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to
15 Mr. Seselj, Mr. Prosecutor, could you tell us what exactly the relevance
16 of this document is? It is connected to a presidential electoral
17 campaign. Obviously, the topic here is Kosovo. However, I believe I've
18 already seen clips, these clips, or excerpts of this clip when -- of the
19 Oberschall expert witness was heard. Haven't we already seen at least
20 excerpts of this video?
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: At the moment, I'm not in the position to tell
22 you. If have already seen, I wouldn't exclude it, but you haven't seen
23 this in its entirety. And the relevance is, as I mentioned, that we have
24 it under the topic of instigation, hate speech. It is against Kosovo.
25 This is true, Kosovo is not part of the indictment, but the date is the
1 6th of December, 1990, when this interview took place, and for the
2 Prosecution it demonstrates a typical approach of Mr. Seselj to other
3 ethnicities, even if it's against Albanians in this case, which is not
4 part of the indictment, but we have similar quotes from him in his books
5 against the Croats and against other ethnicities.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have four matters to raise.
8 First, Mr. Mussemeyer is using hate speech here, because he says
9 that I am speaking against Kosovo. No, I am speaking in favour of
10 Kosovo, in the best interests of Kosovo. But he is burdened by anti-Serb
11 hatred and considers that Kosovo is not Serbian, because he comes from a
12 country that's already recognised this independence of Kosovo proclaimed
13 in that way, so it's normal that he behaves in that way. And it's only
14 the countries that are toppling international rights and have already
15 done so. There are not even 30 of them yet. That's the first point I
16 wanted to raise.
17 The second point is this: I'm very proud with that speech of
18 mine, even today.
19 The third point is that as far as this trial is concerned, the
20 most important fact is that this clip was sent by Natasha Kandic.
21 The fourth point: This is a clip which dates to 1990, and that
22 is as far removed from the period incorporated in the indictment.
23 And the fifth thing I wish to say is this: The Prosecution still
24 has not amended the indictment with incriminations dealing with Kosovo
25 and Metohija. Why is it getting ahead of itself? Why hasn't it put that
1 in the indictment yet? What does all that mean? And Mr. Mussemeyer says
2 this is similar to what I say about the Croats and Muslims. Well, why
3 doesn't he find that similar -- similarity and offer that up as evidence?
4 Why would you do guesswork, as the Trial Chamber?
5 You have my speech, my programme speech, about the question of
6 the Siptar separatist rebellion in Kosovo and Metohija could be solved,
7 and the prosecutor is making you speculate and do guess work saying I
8 have similar speeches about Croats and Muslims. Well, let him find those
9 similar speeches then. He can't, because they don't exist. All problems
10 in the Former Yugoslavia and each and every problem is specific in its
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
14 deliberated on this matter, that is to say, whether this evidence should
15 be admitted and whether we should have a number for this evidence.
16 Judge Lattanzi had a dissident [as interpreted] opinion, but to
17 the majority we have decided that this document should be admitted --
18 this video should be admitted into evidence, and this is why I'm going to
19 ask Madam Registrar to give it a number, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P393, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam
23 Next video, please.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER: One short comment. I think Mr. Seselj should
25 not always refer to the nationality of the members of the Trial Chamber.
1 We also have a free opinion, and it's not that I'm from a specific
2 country that I hate Serbs. This is the comment I wanted to make, because
3 it's constantly inferred that members of the Trial Chamber from specific
4 countries hate specific ethnicities, which is not true. We have our own
5 opinion and our own free will.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I completely
7 support what you just said. It doesn't mean that because one comes from
8 a country that has recognised Kosovo, that that means that that person
9 agrees with the decisions made by its own country. So I believe that
10 Mr. Seselj should refrain from mentioning nationalities of parties
11 involved in this case.
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 The next video is again under the topic: Hate speeches
14 instigation. It has the 65 ter number 6015D. The ERN number is
15 V000-1507. It's 25 seconds' long, and it's from the video clip "Without
16 Incision and Without Anaesthesia." You already saw videos from this
17 clip. I'm not in a position now to tell you where we got it from. Yes,
18 I can see this. It was handed over to the ICTY on the 27th of August,
19 1998, by embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina in The Hague.
20 Thank you.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] " ... and it's high time that we
23 Serbs put an end to all this and send an ultimatum to these federal
24 authorities that have no way of disarming the paramilitary units. Either
25 they do so very soon or we, the Serbian Chetniks, will start disarming
1 the Croats ourselves, and then there will certainly be a lot more
2 bloodshed than if the army disarms them."
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that once again the problem
4 of relevance crops up here. And as far as time is concerned, because
5 this is a May 1991 speech, and also of substance. I think that this is
6 my most peace-loving speech, and the Prosecutor has qualified this as
7 being hate speech. I'm asking for the disarmament of paramilitary
8 formations by the legal army of the SFRY, which was the Yugoslav People's
9 Army, and I am pointing out what would happen if they do not do so. So I
10 can't be more peace-loving than I was there. I don't know where the
11 problem is.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to ask Madam
14 Registrar to give a number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P394, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, the next clip bears the 65 ter
18 number 6025F. It has the ERN number V000-4745. It's about 43 seconds'
19 long. It's a report made by the Serbian Television, and we received this
20 clip from a protected witness. The transcript of this appears also as --
21 it's outlined in Mr. Seselj's book about "Milan Panic Must Fall" is the
23 Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection before we see the clip.
25 I have an objection to make before we see the footage.
1 The Prosecutor said that this clip was given him by a protected
2 witness, whereas here it says that this clip was seized from a man, who
3 not on pain of his own life wanted to be a Prosecution witness or a Trial
4 Chamber witness, a Court witness, all he wanted to be was a Defence
5 witness, to make the information correct. Somebody sees the clip, which
6 means that somebody searched his flat and found this footage. It wasn't
7 that this person handed it over. At least that's what it says.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, was it handed
9 down to you or was it seized, which is not the same thing, of course?
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It was not seized. It was given to the
11 Prosecution voluntarily, and it's not the only one which was given
12 voluntarily. Nothing was seized, nothing was done by force.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're telling
14 us that this document was given to the Prosecution voluntarily. What is
15 really important is what we see in the video, mainly.
16 Let's look at the video now.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. President, what is more
18 relevant for us, what it says on the official OTP document or what
19 Mr. Mussemeyer says? We have seen that his memory is not always in the
20 best order. And this is an official OTP document where it says that the
21 tape was seized, so we can't take Mr. Mussemeyer at his word when his
22 memory seems to have failed the test many times before.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's look at the
24 video clip, and I would like to ask the Prosecution to check. There
25 seems to be a difference between a document that would be given
1 voluntarily and a document which would have been seized. You're telling
2 us the document was given to you. You will tell us later. It is not
3 urgent. Maybe you can check and tell us after the break, what it is,
4 since Mr. Seselj is noting a contradiction here.
5 But let's look at the video now.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "General Staff to immediately ask
8 the separatist government in Skopje
9 government authorities there. If one thinks that the army is not capable
10 of carrying out this task at the moment because of its engagement in many
11 other areas and because of the difficult international circumstances, we
12 demand the division of the Macedonian territory between Serbia, Albania
14 "What Bosnia-Herzegovina is concerned, Dr. Seselj believes that
15 for Bosnia
16 "Bosnia and Herzegovina will never be an independent and
17 sovereign state. It will rather bathe in rivers of blood."
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Firstly, as far as Macedonia
20 concerned, I assume that the Prosecution is proving the state of
21 consciousness. But the Prosecution must know that Macedonia was never an
22 independent state until it was under American patronage that it seceded
23 from Yugoslavia
24 must be preserved at all costs.
25 Secondly, Macedonia
1 portion which was liberated by the Serbian Army in 1912. The other part
2 of Macedonia
3 Macedonians there for a long time. And the part of Macedonia liberated
4 by the Greek Army, for a long time there were no Macedonians there
5 either. So the Macedonian nation was proclaimed under the communist
6 regime of Yugoslavia
8 know everything.
9 Now, as far as this other clip is concerned, it's too brief an
10 extract to be understood. However, these words seem to be providential.
11 In February 1992, I say that there can be no talk of the independence of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina and that Bosnia
13 is allowed to take place. And Bosnia
14 the world factors did not listen to me. It would have been wiser for
15 them if they listened to me on time. It didn't never become an
16 independent state and will never become an independent state. This
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina of today, which is occupied in the true sense of the
18 world, is not an independent state. It is a territory under occupation.
19 We have an international governor administering Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
20 now we have this man Licek [phoen]. Many of them succeeded each other
21 from [indiscernible] and so on, and even that other international, Adi
22 Asdoun [phoen].
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Madam Registrar, could we have a number, please?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P395, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we proceed, Mr. Seselj,
2 you have made some objections for the matters of time. You say this
3 video is not within the scope of the indictment, when it comes to dates,
4 since you've made some time references.
5 You are stating some of the matters, and I will read paragraph 8
6 of the indictment so we can all know what it's about.
7 Paragraph 8(a) begins as follows:
8 "The joint criminal enterprise, a force mentioned, came into
9 existence before August 1st, 1991
10 of 1995."
11 Then it reads as follows:
12 "Vojislav Seselj participated in the joint criminal enterprise
13 until September of 1993, when he had a conflict with Slobodan Milosevic."
14 What is important here is that the criminal enterprise -- joint
15 criminal enterprise began before the 1st of August, 1991; 1990, 1989, we
16 don't really know exactly, but here in the indictment, we do see the word
18 This is what I wanted to note.
19 Yes, Mr. Seselj.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what it says --
21 where it says "before the 1st of August, 1991," that provision has
22 nothing to do with law. It's only the 1st of August that can have any
23 connection with law -- anything -- where it says "before," that is
24 speculation, which is not allowed in law. But I'd like to remind you of
25 the first indictment raised against me, where it says that I was a
1 participant in the joint criminal enterprise from February 1991. And
2 then when I testified during the Slobodan Milosevic trial, it transpired
3 that he was a participant since August 1991. I, from February to August,
4 was the only participant in that joint criminal enterprise. I joined
5 myself in that enterprise, and then all the others joined me in August.
6 So this is all nebulous, constructed and construed by the
7 Prosecutor. When you say "before the 1st of August," that in law means
8 nothing, absolutely nothing. It means since the time of my birth.
9 There's no guesswork and speculation in the realm of law, nor can any
10 incrimination be based on guesswork, and Prosecutors and courts must be
11 precise. If they lack precision, well, it's like somebody saying that I
12 raped an unknown girl. You bring in three witnesses to testify that I
13 raped an unknown girl. They don't know what the girl's name is, they
14 don't know where she's from, or where she is, nor did they see it with
15 their own eyes. So that's the same type of formulation when you say
16 "before August the 1st." If you accept that formulation, that's all
17 right, but I have to object to it and put my views to you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much
19 for your comments. They are noted in the transcript for today's day, and
20 I will myself check as to what you just mentioned. In the first
21 indictment, the month of February was there, but then it was changed to
22 the month of August. So I will check this later.
23 It is time for the break. We will take a 20-minute break and we
24 will resume in 20 minutes from now.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is
3 resumed, and we will continue watching videos.
4 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I come back to the last video we
5 showed. You asked me to check if it was seized or given voluntarily.
6 Our record says that it was submitted by the protected witness on the
7 19th of September, 2003. So the information in the record -- in the list
8 I gave you is not exact. It was not seized. It was submitted, and that
9 was voluntarily.
10 And what I want to comment on is why it is important for the
11 Prosecution. Mr. Seselj, and this is not the only occasion where he
12 mentioned rivers of blood. If you see the date of this video, which was
13 February 1992, and what happened later, it's up to you to make your own
14 conclusion. Those are my comments to this.
15 The next video is 65 ter number 128A. It has the ERN number
16 V000-5022. It's about a bit more than 30 seconds' long, and the
17 Prosecution received this from the IRD studio from Vienna the 1st of
18 February, 2004.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 is the direct introduction into that war, and stimulation of the
22 conflict. The Serbian will never recognise the independence of this new
23 jamahirija and will never give up its territories. It will set the
24 bounds and preserve them. This is a matter of survival, do or die. As
25 far as this alleged lifting of the sanctions against Serbia is concerned,
1 I believe that they have not been lifted, actually. This is just some
2 sort of a promise that the sanctions will be lifted if Serbia agrees to
3 the ultimatum."
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for you to let me know
6 that the translation has been completed, as suggested by Judge Lattanzi.
7 This is not problematic for me, this video. I don't mind it
8 being admitted into evidence. But what is problematic is the previous
9 statement by Mr. Mussemeyer. He says that I speak about floods of --
10 rivers of blood in other places, and he must show where and when. He
11 must understand that this is a poetic expression. In Serbian literature,
12 it is frequently used, "rivers of blood spilled for the freedom of the
13 Serbian people." He doesn't understand that. I don't mind that he
14 doesn't understand, but I do mind when he's imprecise. He can't say
15 there are other such statements. Where is it? In law, you can't say
16 there's more of this. You have to say where and when.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Can we have a number,
18 please, Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P395, Your Honours. I apologise. 396.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Next clip, please.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The next clip will be the 65 ter number 6062C.
22 It has the ERN number V000-0710. It's about one minute and 47 seconds'
23 long, and this tape was sent to the OTP from the Embassy of the Republic
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Brussels
25 of the OTP.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I believe that today you have also
3 had an opportunity to hear the news that Main Staff of the Army of
4 Republika Srpska announced that a very, very strong Muslim offensive
5 started this morning on Vlasic and Majevica. Do you consider this to be
6 the deciding battle for them, or are they testing the strength of the
7 Serb Army once again?
8 "Well, we are expecting that -- we were expecting that offensive.
9 I did not know where they would strike first, but it was up in the air.
10 That was known, and that could not have been avoided. It was well known
11 the Muslims used this peace time to rearm and reorganise themselves for
12 the forthcoming conflicts. In this case, the Serbs must retaliate with
13 force, without stopping. They should not allow any ceasefires. Now we
14 must finish off the Muslims on all fronts. The 5th Corps around Vlasic,
15 Trebave, on Majevica, wherever they attacked, they must be finished off,
16 and then they will never attack again. You know, it can happen to a
17 smart man to be bitten by the snake, but if the same snake bites him
18 twice, then he should question his intelligence. If the snake bites him
19 once, he should crash its head so she can never bite him again. This
20 time, no attention should be paid to pressures and threats from the
21 outside. There is nothing else we need to wait for. Now we have to
22 definitely finish up with the Muslims."
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here again the question of time
25 relevance and substantial relevance arises. This recording is from the
1 20th of March, 1995. This is two years after I had clashed with Slobodan
2 Milosevic. I abandoned the joint criminal enterprise, as the Prosecution
3 calls it. These may be the remnants of my previous alleged participation
4 in the joint criminal enterprise, so this is very strange.
5 Now, what is hate speech here? Clearly, we say I'm referring to
6 the destruction of the Muslim army. I'm saying where, at Majevica, which
7 is a mountain, Vlasic is a mountain, Trebave is a mountain. I didn't say
8 that the Muslim need to be destroyed in Sarajevo, in Tuzla
9 Muslim army needs to be destroyed. As in war, when the Germans attacked
10 over there, they were destroyed over there, they won over there, they
11 were defeated in the Ardens
12 The enemy in the war is referred to by his ethnicity, "We have defeated
13 the Germans, we have destroyed the Germans."
14 The Prosecution is trying to use a trick. They don't wish to
15 define it, but it can be inferred. It is a foggy example of a hate
16 speech which the Prosecution is not able to explain to this day, what
17 they mean when they talk about hate speech.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unanimously, the Trial Chamber
20 decided to dismiss this video.
21 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, the last two videos deal with the
22 topic "History of Chetnik Movement." The first one has the 65 ter number
23 6021G. The ERN number is V000-3780. The clip is about two minutes'
24 long, and the OTP received this video from the Croatian government in
25 2002. It's an interview broadcast to "TV Politika."
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Don't you think that the
3 iconography which could be seen a few days ago when the memorial service
4 was held for Draza Mihajlovic, and which included black heads, skulls and
5 bones, long hairs, does that iconography repel people, particularly young
6 people and people who have already lived through all that? After all, we
7 should keep in mind that the SUBNOR/Federal Association of World War II
8 veterans or that veteran organisation counts 600- 700.000 people, and
9 those people have once already lived through all that. Yes, and that
10 veteran organisation is, it seems, continues to be getting bigger. They
11 just won't die. There are always more and more of them, and I don't know
12 how long that is going to last for. And as for the iconography, I think
13 that it should bother no one.
14 "Firstly, black flags are the main hallmark of the Chetnik
15 movement already from the times.
16 "Yes, I know that. That was inherited from the Serbian guerrilla
17 units and the like. After all, they were very effective. You know when
18 those Chetniks units with black flags show up in places where there are
19 Ustashas, Ustashas run for their lives. Whereas if 50 Chetniks show up,
20 Croats think there are 10.000 of them, then they flee in panic. For
21 example, a small group of Chetniks showed up at a village near Zadar
22 about two months ago, approximately, and a rumour spread through Zadar
23 that I was with that unit. If we had decided to take Zadar that night,
24 and by sheer coincidence the power failed in Zadar. The panic then took
25 over and all the Ustasha oriented people left their homes towards the
1 harbour and went on board ships and boats. Those who did not have a boat
2 with an engine went on board boats with oars just to push off to open sea
3 expecting the arrival of Chetniks. Thus the Croats, first of all, showed
4 that their conscience is not clear. On the other hand, the Chetnik
5 tradition, which is full of heroic acts, heroic feats, is also very
6 effective in this war which is being waged against the new Ustasha
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that there are serious
9 problem because of an inadequate translation. I think those are the
10 serious problems because of inadequate translation of this clip. This
11 reference is to the Ustasha-inclined population of Zadar. Now, whether
12 it says "Ustasha" or "Croats," so the translation does not correspond to
13 the substance of what I said.
14 Of course, there's also a problem because the interviewer is
15 overlapping with me, who knows the Serb language well, can make a
16 distinction. Those who don't speak Serbian well cannot know what each
17 one of us said.
18 So then there's the question of relevance. It is June 1991.
19 Actually, it's an anecdote that was recounted. The Croats had heard that
20 Seselj appeared with the Chetniks close to Zadar and they boarded boats
21 and fled to the islands. In Bosnia
22 there was a shortage of oil, sugar, and milk, in a Muslim town, in a
23 shop, somebody wrote in capitals, "sugar is coming," "stize secer," and
24 somebody understood it meant "Seselj is coming," and there was panic and
25 everyone fled.
1 So here's an anecdote that I'm telling in the studio, and the
2 Prosecution is using it as hate speech. It's similar to the anecdote
3 about slaughtering with rusty spoons, shoehorns, because the Chetniks
4 were always said that they were slaughterers. I said, yes, instead of
5 using a knife, we now use a rusty shoehorn, so one cannot tell whether
6 the victim died due to the slaughtering or to the infection because of
7 the rust. So somebody who doesn't know Serbian well cannot see that it
8 is an anecdote. He just wishes to pursue his goals, without consulting
10 This is the problem of one-dimensional personalities which are
11 numerous in the OTP.
12 The Serb people describe such people as beach heads, as empty
13 heads. When someone has such an empty head, he sticks to his one line of
14 thought and he doesn't develop his thoughts, there's no feeling for
15 different views. So one-dimensional personalities are familiar from
16 social psychology, and we know what kind of characteristics such
17 personalities have.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber unanimously,
20 once again, decides to admit this video clip and would like a number,
21 please, Ms. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will become Exhibit number P397.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we have one
24 last video clip.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER: In fact, we have. It appears as 65 ter number
1 6072A. The ERN number is V000-1508. It's about four minutes and 20
2 seconds' long. It's from the 23rd of June, 1997, and it is an interview
3 with a Slavko Aleksic. Slavko Aleksic was appointed vojvoda by
4 Mr. Seselj in the order I quoted already this morning, number 124. He is
5 number 1, and he was during the war in Sarajevo.
6 The OTP received this tape from the AID in Sarajevo on the 27th
7 of August, 1998.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Politics created the borders in
10 this war. Maybe it was supposed to be like that, maybe not. History
11 will be the judge of that. However, the people erased those borders."
12 "Yes. For the people on this and the other side of the Drina
13 River, the borders never existed. Drina should represent the backbone of
14 the Serbian people. It is our task to finish what sparked immediately
15 after the decapitation of the immortal Prince Lazar at Kosovo Polje.
16 That spark initiated the first Serbian rebellion, the growth of national
17 consciousness, unification. The final goal of all that should be the
18 creation of a Serbian national state and the final solution to the
19 eternal Serbian national question.
20 "The cry of the Serbian patriots going to death was, 'unification
21 or death,' or, 'freedom or death.' Without the unification and freedom,
22 we would be left with the other choice, and that is death, in a national
23 and a general sense. And what is going on now? You know what the answer
24 of Croatia
25 Muslim, and Macedonian answers.
1 "The people of Serbia
2 derogatory term for Albanians, answer; that is, Siptar's national answer
3 to the Serbian national issue. They are hoping that the national answer
4 of the Montenegrins to the Serbian national issue will be positive.
5 Until the moment when the Serbs establish a unified Serbian state on
6 integrated Serbian territory, and until the Serbian national question is
7 solved, I am afraid that they will keep on getting killed in these wars
8 and that their territory will be further disintegrated and so on. We are
9 a small people, but we had many opportunities in our history to become
10 big. Unfortunately, we did not use those opportunities.
11 Let's remind ourselves of the year 1918 and the end of World War
12 I, and the London Agreement, and the borders of the Serbian state along
13 the axis Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica. However, the romantic
14 desire of our poets and politicians on triune people titled the balance.
15 Ante Pavelic killed this romanticism in Jasenovac. He drew the Serbian
16 borders through the Serbian throats using the Ustasha knives and fenced
17 it in with Jadovni, Golubinjaca, Jasenovac and so on.
18 "I, as a Chetnik vojvoda or duke, and all those with me, shall
19 never give up the idea of the borders of the Serbian country along the
20 axis Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica. The French waited for 47 years
21 for the Germans to give them back Alsace
22 did not lose Knin, Eastern Slavonia, Western Slavonia, and Srem in the
23 course of a battle. We lost them during peace. Someone gave them away,
24 someone handed them over. The same is happening with Serbian Sarajevo.
25 I had to move my family out of Serbian Sarajevo, but I do hope that one
1 day, I may not be around to see it, we will be back in Serbian Sarajevo,
2 in our Sarajevo
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that a Serbian Chetnik
5 vojvoda, Slavko Aleksic, is speaking intelligently, and in my opinion
6 this statement has nothing to be said against it. But, again, the
7 question of relevance arises. It is dated the 23rd of June, 1997
8 temporal relevance arises. You have similar statements from this year,
9 too, people who are very close to me, who are Chetnik vojvodas or senior
10 officials of the Serbian Radical Party. What is being proven through
12 Secondly, what does the Prosecution truly want to say with this?
13 We have a problem. It may be purely a problem of translation. The
14 interpreter told me an order on the proclamation of a Serbian Chetnik
15 vojvoda. I don't know how it sounds in French. It's not an order. It's
16 an instruction. It is a legal act which can be of an individual and a
17 general nature. And in the classification of legal acts in the
18 administration, for example, a "naredba" comes below the Statute and the
19 Rules. If the Constitution is at the top, then comes a decree, and then
20 at a lower level there is the Statute, the Rules, the ordinance or
21 injection. There's something known as autonomous law of religious
22 organisations, political parties, and so on, and this autonomous law
23 contains elements of administrative law. So "naredba" is a legal act, an
24 injunction, and not an order. An order exists in this sphere of command.
25 Somebody gave somebody else an order to capture a bunker, this is not an
1 order, it is an induction to proclaim somebody a vojvoda, whoever has the
2 right to do this, on the basis of the Statute of the Serbian Radical
3 Party, to proclaim a group of people as Serb Chetnik vojvodas. This may
4 be purely a translation problem, but I thought it necessary to draw your
5 attention to it.
6 Substantially, however, let us for a moment put aside the fact
7 that I think Slavko Aleksic is absolutely right in saying all this. I
8 would say something like this and have said similar things. Now, what
9 does this mean, producing Slavko Aleksic's statement from 1997 [Realtime
10 transcript read as "1987"] as evidence in a case against me? If, in
11 1993, I proclaimed somebody
12 a Chetnik vojvoda, does that mean that I bear responsibility for
13 everything he did before he was proclaimed a Chetnik vojvoda and what he
14 did after he was proclaimed a Chetnik vojvoda? He is not stupid, he's
15 not a minor, I'm not his nurse. What do I care as to what someone said
16 somewhere? I know why proclaimed him a Chetnik vojvoda; for his heroism
17 during the war, for his courage, for his knightly behaviour. I didn't
18 push him like a sheep somewhere who would listen to me and do whatever I
19 say. So if he does something wrong, it is my fault as though he was an
20 ultimatum that I was commanding.
21 What does that mean, that every president of a political party in
23 does anywhere? Party members are arrested for a crime, they go to
24 prison, and nobody charges the president of the party for this. He may
25 be responsible politically.
1 Where are the consequences in terms of criminal responsibility
2 for something that somebody said outside of the period of the indictment?
3 So I think perhaps the Prosecution should explain this. Perhaps the
4 Trial Chamber understands this better than me. I seem to be the only one
5 who doesn't understand anything here.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one thing. There's an
7 error on line 18, page 49. It's not "1987," but "1997."
8 Very well. The Trial Chamber is going to confer as to whether we
9 will or not admit this exhibit.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unanimously, the Trial Chamber
12 decides to admit this exhibit, and is thus asking Madam Registrar to give
13 us a number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This will become Exhibit number P398, Your
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that all videos were shown and played.
18 Mr. Mussemeyer, I'd like to know, we saw all the videos; right?
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Yes, Your Honour, we saw them.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 I would like to ask something to Mr. Mundis. In the future, will
22 we have other videos? Are we going to see another list of videos?
23 MR. MUNDIS: We're working on that, Mr. President, and we'll be
24 in a position to notify the Trial Chamber when we return on, I believe,
25 the 6th of May. We should have some further information on that.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well.
2 So next week, we are not sitting, because Wednesday is a day off
3 and there will be no sitting next week, so we will resume on May 6, on
4 Tuesday, May 6.
5 I mentioned this yesterday. A witness has been scheduled for
6 that day. It's still going on? Are there any problems expected?
7 MR. MUNDIS: As of today, it's still going on, Mr. President. We
8 are in possession of no information that would indicate that the witness
9 scheduled, VS-002, will not appear. As far as we know, he is scheduled
10 and will be here to testify from the 6th through the 8th of May.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you know that to
12 govern this is to anticipate, and so if there is a problem, the Trial
13 Chamber would like you to tell the senior legal officer as quickly as
14 possible, as well as Mr. Seselj, to have something as a backup prepared,
15 maybe another witness. But Mr. Seselj must be told about it in due time.
16 The Trial Chamber had decided to have a court witness the week
17 after that.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. Obviously, if something happens
19 with respect to the expected appearance of Witness VS-002, as long as we
20 have enough advanced notice that that witness is not coming, we will
21 schedule someone else. If we only find out the day or so before that
22 witness is to come, that he is not going to appear, then we will
23 certainly have problems in terms of getting witnesses here.
24 As the Trial Chamber is well aware, VWS and the host state
25 require five working days in order to process visas, and if we don't have
1 at least five days to work with, then it's impossible to schedule
2 witnesses that require visas, and that's the majority of the witnesses
3 we're dealing with.
4 So we will, of course, do our best, but as I've indicated, at
5 this point in time we have no information or anything that would lead us
6 to believe that we would have a problem with respect to the appearance of
7 the witness scheduled for the 6th through the 8th of May.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Regarding Witness VS-002, I think you asked for four hours.
10 That's what I had in mind.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I think that we'd asked for three
12 hours, but I'm not certain. I'm looking at the court calender that we
13 distribute, and that indicates three hours. I certainly don't expect
14 that we would have a problem with filling that whole week with the
15 testimony of that witness.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have three
17 hours. Mr. Seselj will also be given three hours. But out of
18 experience, we know that it takes much longer because of the different
19 issues that are raised. So with three hours, I'm sure -- for three hours
20 for each party, I'm sure we will have enough matter for three days.
21 Mr. Mundis, is there anything you'd like to talk about?
22 MR. MUNDIS: Nothing further, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, do you have any
24 topic you'd like to raise?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I filed two
1 submissions -- three submissions today; the one you suggested yesterday
2 regarding Carla Del Ponte, an amendment to the criminal report against an
3 investigator of the OTP because of certain circumstances, and also a
4 response to the request of the Prosecution for a change in the list of
5 witnesses, and this is something that I have to elaborate on orally here.
6 The Prosecution has renounced three witnesses. That is not a
7 problem, as one of them has been on the Defence list for a long time now.
8 But the Prosecution wants to include a new witness under 92 ter, and I
9 resolutely object. First of all, he's belatedly being introduced, and,
10 secondly, under 92 ter, I think it's not a protected witness, so I can
11 use his name -- it is a woman, and if the OTP doesn't let me know that
12 she is a protected witness, I can proceed. We're talking about Vesna
13 Bosanac. I don't mind her being a witness, but if she comes here, then
14 she has to be heard viva voce and in no other way, because this is a
15 witness of capital importance for these proceedings.
16 And the fact that the Prosecution is renouncing Ivan Grujic is a
17 problem, because he has been compromised by his behaviour in the Glavas
18 case, and they are now offering two other persons as experts instead of
19 him. And I have elaborated on this objection in detail in my submission.
20 I have been preparing for five years for Ivan Grujic. I spent a lot of
21 money preparing to disqualify him as a man and as an expert, and now
22 they, one or two of his associates, upon the suggestion of the Croatian
23 government, to take over his role in these proceedings. And the
24 Prosecution tells us that it is upon the suggestion of the Croatian
25 government, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
1 And, finally, I ask the Trial Chamber to give instructions to the
2 OTP to give to the Chamber and me a final list of remaining Prosecution
3 witnesses, because I am finding it more and more difficult to find my way
4 on that list, because the Prosecution has renounced some of them more
5 recently and also there's quite a number of deceased witnesses. I'm not
6 sure that the Prosecution knows that they have passed away. According to
7 my records, there are eight or nine of them who have died in the
8 meantime, and the Prosecution should clear these things up because they
9 have time at their disposal, and to provide us a final text of -- list of
10 remaining witnesses.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Mr. Mundis, regarding the last part of Mr. Seselj's intervention
13 regarding this updated witness list, I believe this is very appropriate,
14 and it would be good if the Trial Chamber and Mr. Seselj were given an
15 updated list.
16 Now, Mr. Seselj is telling us that according to his own
17 information, eight or nine witnesses scheduled on the original list are
18 deceased. That's quite a large number of people, and this will have
19 repercussions on the witness list. The Trial Chamber must absolutely
20 know where it's going in order to know where you're going with your own
21 witnesses, and it would be good to have an updated list with live
22 witnesses, the ones that are still alive. If some witnesses passed away,
23 I'm sure you know that the Rule 92 ter quater has been set up through
24 which you may ask for the statements to be admitted in such
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 We are in the process of preparing a 92 quater motion covering a
3 number of witnesses who have passed away since our witness list was
4 created. I'm also meeting with members of the trial team tomorrow in
5 order to put together a plan that will take us significantly farther down
6 the road in terms of witness appearances and witness schedules. So I
7 would anticipate that, again, when we return on the 6th of May, that we
8 should be in a position to provide some further information.
9 I will indicate that with the exception of any witnesses that the
10 Prosecution has specifically withdrawn from its witness list, all of the
11 witnesses on the original witness list remain on the Prosecution's
12 witness list. So it's not going to be a situation where I come in on
13 Monday and indicate that 45 witnesses on the Prosecution's list are being
14 dropped. The only witnesses that we're not going to call are those
15 witnesses that we have made written or oral applications concerning. All
16 of the remaining witnesses remain on the Prosecution witness list.
17 We are, as I've indicated, working to put together a scheduled
18 plan that will take us many months down the road, and we are in the
19 processing and filing and putting together a 92 quater motion that will
20 take us a little bit of time in order to ensure that we've got all the
21 proper material that needs to go with that filing.
22 So I will probably be in a position to indicate further the exact
23 status or plan that the Prosecution is putting forward to move forward,
24 but I will again indicate that all of the witnesses on the Prosecution
25 witness list remain on the Prosecution witness list unless we have
1 specifically indicated otherwise.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, very well.
3 Regarding Grujic, the expert witness, you told us that you had
4 been preparing for him for years and that you believed it was quite
5 abnormal that he should no longer be on the list.
6 Now, regarding this issue, remember that each party controls its
7 witnesses and establishes its own witness list, is envisaging that they
8 will be heard, and sometimes there are exceptional circumstances that
9 force parties to drop witnesses off their lists for different reasons.
10 As an example, the Prosecutor could very well decide to drop witnesses
11 that you're claiming as Defence witnesses. He is allowed to do that,
12 just as he's allowed, if he decides to change expert witness, to explain
13 why he wants to change the expert witness.
14 Here, for example, a reason was given because he's been -- he's
15 involved in a special case, and because of this, they would like to
16 replace him with two other experts. Of course, the Trial Chamber will
17 rule on this, but they're free to do this, just like you might be.
18 At one point in time, you might want to call witnesses, and at
19 the very last minute you could drop a scheduled witness for a reason that
20 is your own, and the Prosecution can't say, "Well, I prepared for the
21 cross-examination of Mr. Seselj's witness for years, and suddenly he's
22 dropped off the list." That's the way things are organised under this
23 procedure. You can think what you want about it, but that is the way
24 things stand. The Prosecution controls its choice of witnesses and
25 controls whether it wants the witnesses to be heard or not. Of course,
1 the Prosecution has this authority, but the Trial Chamber can decide that
2 in the interest of justice, even if the witness is dropped from the
3 Prosecution, the Trial Chamber may want this witness to come anyway.
4 That's up to the Chamber to decide, just like if a witness is dropped
5 from the Prosecution list, the Defence can call this witness if Defence
6 wishes to do that. That's the way it works.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I consider that this
8 problem is far more complicated than that.
9 I completely agree that the Prosecutor can withdraw any of his
10 witnesses, but here we're not talking with dropping a witness and we're
11 not dealing with dropping an expert witness. What we're talking about
12 here is to replace an expert witness, and I think that in previous trials
13 we haven't come across a case like that, or at least I don't know about
14 it. And the OTP therefore recognises that this particular witness has
15 been discredited, which entails enormous repercussions. He testified in
16 the Milosevic trial, the Vukovar Trojka trial, and who knows in what
17 other trial. And if he's been discredited as an expert witness, then his
18 expert testimony must be dropped in all those trials.
19 The second problem is this: They say, "The expert witness has
20 been disqualified, so we're not going to call him but we're going to call
21 his associates from his -- the same institution that he works with --
22 that he worked with together," so that they could instead of him explain
23 and interpret what he had prepared to put to the Trial Chamber. And even
24 more that; that this was done pursuant to suggestions of the Croatian
25 government, the Croatian government suggested that, the authorities in
2 Ivan Grujic. I can't remember their names, but it's in my written
3 statement. So that they should do that instead of him.
4 So it's material prepared by Ivan Grujic, and let me remind you
5 then that we never actually had a true expert report, it was just a
6 collection of different material, and now instead of him -- and I said
7 that I would challenge everything he said, that I would challenge his
8 credibility as a witness, his professionalism, and so on and so forth.
9 We now have the appearance of two other people, two women, to interpret
10 all this, and they probably worked on this matter with him. They're
11 probably not incompetent, but I think that in my deep opinion, that
12 the -- this action is not in order, that somebody should be dropped
13 because the Prosecution concluded that he has lost credibility. Instead
14 of him, two associates, pursuant to suggestions from the Croatian
15 government were called instead of him to interpret the material that he
16 compiled and created and collected or did whatever he did himself.
17 So that's the crux of the matter.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Your problem was
19 explained -- rather, you've explained it to us. The Chamber will rule on
20 this. The submissions were presented orally and in writing.
21 And the last point that you raised, which is the changing of the
22 list by adding a witness that will testify on the Vukovar Hospital
23 a lady. She's already testified previously. She made a written
24 statement, and there's a request to add her. You were able to make your
25 comments, and the Trial Chamber will decide on this.
1 All the topics were dealt with, and since we have some time and
2 had some time, it was good that we were able to deal with this, and now
3 we are going to be able in the future to devote our time to witnesses.
4 We won't be -- it won't be needed to talk about administrative questions
5 or housekeeping matters. We can just focus on the witnesses. And since
6 today we had some time, it was important and useful to deal with these
8 Unless I am mistaken, Mr. Seselj, you talked about all the topics
9 you wished to raise.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This being said,
12 the hearing is resumed [sic] and we will -- the hearing is adjourned,
13 rather, and we will resume the hearing on the 6th of May.
14 Thank you very much.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.40 a.m.
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th of May, 2008.