1 Tuesday, 20 May 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
11 Today, we are Tuesday, the 20th of May, 2008.
12 I would like to greet the witness. I would like to greet the
13 OTP, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people assisting us.
14 The Prosecutor must finish his examination-in-chief. You have
15 half an hour left, so I shall give you the floor.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: ASIM ALIC (Resumed)
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Examination by Mr. Dutertre: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Alic.
21 Mr. Alic, last week we addressed various --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is really an outrage. The
23 Prosecutor says, "Good morning," to the Trial Chamber, to Mr. Alic, and
24 nothing to me, he says nothing to me. Well, is that the way to behave.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't have to say hello to
1 everyone, Mr. Prosecutor.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch what Mr. Dutertre
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Last week, we addressed your personal history, the forces in
6 Zvornik in 1991 and 1992, the various political forces in Zvornik during
7 this period, the military forces present around Zvornik, the most salient
8 events which you remembered between October 1991 and April 1992,
9 presented to you in a chronological order, when possible. And, lastly,
10 the arrest of four Serbs in April 1992. That's what we were talking
11 about when we left off last week, and we addressed in detail the
12 situation of the two first men, the Vuckovic brothers. You clearly told
13 us that they both had membership cards of the SRS and the Serbian Chetnik
15 I would like to address the issue of the membership cards of the
16 SRS. You mentioned this in 1996 already, and you mentioned that these
17 people had these cards. Do you remember having testified in Belgrade in
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness never spoke
20 about the IDs of the Serbian Radical Party in 1996, but exclusively of
21 the Chetnik Movement. He started speaking about the IDs of the Serbian
22 Radical Party in the proofing session, as the Prosecutor told me in the
23 minutes from that proofing session, so the Prosecutor must not use that.
24 And I'm going to prove, using that, that this witness is giving false
25 testimony, because neither in 1996 or 1997 was there a membership card of
1 the Serbian Radical Party.
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I object to the use of the word,
3 false witness.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're going so
5 fast that it's difficult for us to keep up. And you talked about false
6 witnesses, but there are intervals in the middle which haven't been
7 addressed. I'm trying to understand when you talk about a false witness,
8 and I'm trying to understand what the Prosecutor would like to establish.
9 According to what I've understood, the witness testified in
10 Belgrade in 1996, I believe. Is that right?
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is that last
12 week the witness explained to us that in 1996, he had told the
13 investigator that these two cases existed. Then I started addressing the
14 testimony of this gentleman in Belgrade in 1996.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor is
16 telling us that in 1996, the witness had spoken to the investigator about
17 these two cards, the Chetnik Movement card and SRS card.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, correct two cases by two
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] ... since he does not know how
21 this was translated, because you yourself highlighted this on a several
22 of occasions. We have your statements, ones you made to the
23 investigators, and these are signed in English. And since the witness
24 does not speak English, he may not have been made aware of the accuracy
25 of his words translated into English as concern these two cards. And
1 it's on this particular issue that the Prosecutor would like to get back
2 to, since he seems to have addressed this during his testimony in 2006.
3 Is that right, Mr. Dutertre? Have I got it right?
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I hadn't addressed this last point
5 yet, but this is exactly what I wanted to get at.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is how things stand.
7 Mr. Seselj, what do you have to say?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is impermissible
9 for the Prosecutor to tell the witness that in 1996, "In the statement to
10 the Prosecution, you said that two membership cards existed, the Serbian
11 Radical Party and the Serbian Chetnik Movement." That's how the
12 Prosecutor began, so I assume you have that in the transcript, and that
13 is impermissible. And if you look at both those statements, you will see
14 that no mention is made of the membership cards of the Serbian Radical
15 Party, but only of the Serbian Chetnik Movement. The first time that the
16 witness mentioned the membership card of the Serbian Radical Party was at
17 the proofing session which was held several days ago. Never before did
18 he mention that. And I received the minutes from the proofing session.
19 It is in three parts, and it is only there that the witness first
20 mentions the Serbian Radical Party.
21 So why is my objection well founded? Because the Prosecutor must
22 not lead the witness and suggest that he said in 1996 something that the
23 witness did not say at that time.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, I believe that
25 Mr. Seselj has -- is right at least on one point. The statement of 1996,
1 which I have before me --
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the
3 witness told us last week as regards the statements he made in 1996. I'm
4 not referring to the written statement of 1996, but the explanations
5 provided by the witness as regards what he said in 1996.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, Mr. Dutertre, please.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is what the witness said, and
8 it is on the transcript.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you give us the transcript
10 page, please.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I can find it again, if you
12 would allow me.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While the Prosecutor is looking for
14 that, I'd like to draw your attention, Judges, to the following.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's on page 7012, Your Honour,
16 7012, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 7012.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 19 to 25, lines 19 to 25.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Registrar bring up
20 this page, please.
21 In the meantime, Mr. Seselj will address another issue.
22 Mr. Seselj.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is now telling you
24 something new that I wasn't challenging at all. It is correct that last
25 week, the witness mentioned two IDs or membership cards, that of the
1 Serbian Radical Movement and the Serbian Chetnik Movement, but there's
2 none of that in the 1996 statement, so this is quite impermissible
3 behaviour. He can score a point with people that have an IQ at the level
4 of idiots, but at this kind of level, you can't pull a fast one like
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have the transcript before me
7 now, and I'm reading it on my colleague's screen. He explained it, on
8 line 20, that the cards existed. That is the truth. One of the cards
9 mentioned "SCP," and the other card "SRS," Serbian Radical Party. So he
10 mentioned two cards here in the courtroom, whereas in the 1996 statement,
11 only one card was mentioned.
12 So, Witness, 15 years later, how is it that your memory has --
13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, in 1996, it may sound
14 ambiguous, but what I -- my point today, which was by way of
15 introduction, I was just saying that the witness did state this at the
16 time, and I was only quoting his words. Line 19 to 25.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. My
18 colleague does not seem to agree.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is a problem for me,
20 particularly in the light of what the Prosecutor said just a few moments
22 On line 2 -- on page 2, line 13, 14, 15 and 16, I don't know if
23 it's a translation issue. Maybe it would be best to check what the
24 Prosecutor said in French. It seems that he refers to something which
25 the witness would have said to the investigator in 1996, as regards a
1 membership card of the SRS. So we should check this.
2 Did you actually say this, because if you have said this, I
3 believe that the accused is right to object, because in the 1996
4 statement mention is made to a card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and
5 not the SRS, so let's be quite clear about this. This does not mean that
6 the accused needs to be that aggressive when he objects. He could be
7 perhaps a little bit more courteous, but basically he is right.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the
9 witness said last week, and in these lines from 19 to 25, maybe I didn't
10 express myself properly. But in these lines 19 to 25, he mentioned
11 having mentioned it, and he said there might have been a translation
12 problem at the time, I mean. This is why I did not mention the 1996
13 document, but I talked about what he had said in 1996. So maybe I
14 didn't -- maybe I misspoke, but I was referring to the transcript.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On line 19 of page 7012 in the
16 English we have before us, we can read as follows, and he refers to both
17 cards, and he even adds:
18 [In English] "That is the truth."
19 [Interpretation] So since there is an objection, I shall take
20 charge of this.
21 Now, we have the proof, Witness, that in 1996, in the English
22 version -- normally speaking, the English version should match the B/C/S
23 version, which I do not have. I do not have it. You only talked about
24 one ID card of the Chetnik Movement, a membership card of the Chetnik
25 Movement, and last week you said that in your statement, you mentioned
1 two cards. So can you tell us what you actually said in 1996 to the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said exactly that two different
4 membership cards existed. I had them, I looked at them. I had them in
5 my hands, I read them, and it is true, there were two different
6 membership cards, one of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the other the
7 Serbian Radical Party. So that is correct. Now, how that was
8 translated, I really don't know.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're a
10 professional. If that had been very important and if the investigator
11 felt it was very important, why didn't you make sure that this was
12 properly translated at the time, that this be really recorded on the
13 transcript, because in your interview, this doesn't show. One has the
14 feeling that these were cards of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I responded to the questions they
16 asked me at the time, and that's what I said at the time; what I've just
17 said now. Now, how it was translated and then written down, I don't
18 know. I didn't look at all that, the translation of it.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that the Prosecution
22 provided you subsequently with the 1997 statement of this witness, so
23 that you can see that on page 7, that he is talking about the same
24 question, and he says that two brothers had membership cards issued by
25 Seselj's paramilitary, para-army. So there's no mention of the Serbian
1 Radical Party. This could bring to mind the Serbian Chetnik Movement, if
2 the witness considers that to be my paramilitaries, but there was no
3 Serbian Radical Party there even in 1997, and it doesn't exist in his
4 Belgrade statement, in the Belgrade testimony. I don't know whether the
5 Prosecutor has provided you with a copy of that, either.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one year later, the
7 investigator of the OTP interviews you once again, and then something
8 crops up. You talk about Seselj's paramilitaries, without mentioning the
9 Serbian Radical Party. How can you explain this to us?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to repeat for the umpteenth
11 time, two different membership cards existed. Both of them were Seselj's
12 paramilitary formations, both, because it wasn't the legal army ever. So
13 both the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the Serbian Radical Party, they
14 were paramilitary formations, and it was one and the same formation,
15 Seselj's one, but they had two different membership cards. The first
16 membership card was produced much earlier, and according to some
17 information it was banned over there, and then they opted for a different
18 method, to use a milder expression for their party, and called it the
19 "Serbian Radical Party." That's the truth of it, and I had those
20 membership cards in my hands. I read them, and it cannot be otherwise.
21 Now, how it was translated over there, I really can't explain that.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, and then I
23 shall give the floor back to the Prosecutor.
24 How would you define a paramilitary, according to your training?
25 What is a paramilitary formation, in your eyes?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the forces who -- which were
2 established, which were formed on the basis of certain people's volition,
3 voluntarily, outside -- institutions outside the legal formations, and I
4 said last time the legal formations were just the formations and units of
5 the Yugoslav People's Army and the Ministry of the Interior. All the
6 rest were beyond, outside the system, which means paramilitary, illegal
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Dutertre, let's
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 I would just like to note that the translation of what I said,
12 page 7, line 9, is incomplete. I shall not correct it now. I'd like
14 Q. Do you remember you testified in 2006?
15 A. Yes, I do remember.
16 Q. Do you remember having mentioned the existence of these two
17 cards, one card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and one card of the SRS,
18 the Serbian Radical Party?
19 A. Yes, I did mention that.
20 Q. In this trial in Belgrade in 2006, Mr. Seselj was not one of the
21 accused, was he?
22 A. No.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, objection. I think that
25 the Prosecutor must show you now that portion of the transcript from the
1 Belgrade trial where this witness referred to those two membership cards.
2 You can't just skip over that. He is relating to an exhibit, and now he
3 must provide it. I will provide it during the cross-examination.
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, if it's on Mr. Seselj's
5 time, I don't mind.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "If it's not on my time,
7 that's fine."
8 At the time you put the question, I thought you were going to
9 show the witness a question which was put in Belgrade to the witness and
10 his answer. I thought you were going to show him that to put it in
11 context, because it's important to know what question this related to.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is document 7227 65 ter list
13 page 627. I'm interested in the two pages here in B/C/S, so pages 7 and
14 8 have been translated, and other two pages have not been translated, but
15 I can quote this.
16 The Judge was asking --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor repeat the
18 page number, because I omitted to hear one of the digits.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
20 ... Mr. Seselj. The translation in English is in the document. I can
21 read it out, if you like.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For Mr. Seselj to be able to
23 check, we should show this on the screen. We should show the document,
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 7.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, he did say "7227."
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in B/C/S, yes?
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Would you like me to read it to
4 save time?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
6 MR. DUTERTRE: Witness Asim Alic, there were two of them,
7 identification cards, Seselj's members, one identification card, these
8 were radicals, and before that there were -- I remember it well,
9 identification cards labelled -- it said 'SCP' Serbian Chetnik
10 identification card, military one, and it was on those grounds that I
11 started contemplating --"
12 No, sorry, sorry. [Interpretation] I've made a mistake, sorry:
13 [In English] "... movement, and I know they were banned under a
14 particular name, but the identification cards were still with them, so it
15 gave me evidence of the [indiscernible] and whom they belonged to."
16 [Interpretation] Is that what you stated in Belgrade?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President, I have
18 an objection.
19 First of all, the Prosecutor did not read out exactly what it
20 says in the Belgrade statement, because I have page 7 in front of me of
21 the original transcript of the 10th of March, 2006. The president of the
22 Trial Chamber says: "Who was that?" That's on page 7. And the witness,
23 Asim Alic, says:
24 "They were two of them. Two of them had ID cards, Seselj's
25 members, one ID card --"
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We could ask the witness to read
3 the translation out. I read the translation which I had, but maybe it
4 would be best if the interpreters translate when Mr. Alic reads out this
6 Could we scroll down to the bottom of the page, please.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before you, you have
8 the text in B/C/S of the hearing. Clearly, a question is put by the
9 judge and the witness answers. Clearly, we are dealing with a
10 professional judge here, because the questions are extremely
12 Could you read out the answer you gave, which is in B/C/S here?
13 With that, the interpreters can translate what you are reading out to us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I begin?
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were -- two people had them,
17 had identification cards, Seselj's members. One of the IDs, those were
18 the Radicals, and before them, I remember well, IDs that were called --
19 on them, it said 'the SCP,' the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and I know that
20 what it was under that name that they were prohibited, but they still had
21 those IDs. So that was proof even more of their affiliation, to whom
22 they belonged."
23 It is true I said that, but look at the second sentence in that
25 "They were people. They had identification cards. Seselj's
1 members, one identification card said 'the Radicals,' so I'm talking
2 about one where it said the Radicals and one where it said the Serbian
3 Radical Party. One was the Chetniks and the other the Serbian Radical
4 Party, but it is true that there were two. And I clearly spoke about the
5 two of them. I clearly saw them, and that's the truth of it."
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we've just heard the
8 translation of what you've said. The important point is the beginning.
9 I would like you to read this out again slowly, please, just the
10 beginning. So read it again, and read it slowly so that the interpreters
11 can do their job properly. So please read it out again, just the
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were people -- two people had
14 identification cards. When I say 'identification cards,' I mean several.
15 He didn't have one. It's not in the singular, it's in the plural. I
16 remember well the identification cards were called -- on it, it said --"
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What the witness is now doing has
18 no sense. The witness isn't reading, he is interpreting it subsequently
19 and interpreting it wrongly. You asked the witness to read it out, so
20 the witness has to read it out word by word without any comments. You
21 can ask for comments later on.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, can you please
23 read what is in the text, but word for word? Mr. Seselj speaks the same
24 language that you do, so if there is a difference, he will object. So
25 please start again from the beginning, without commenting anything. Just
1 read out loud what is written on the screen.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were -- they were two people
3 that had -- they had ID cards, Seselj's members, one ID card that was
4 those Radicals, and before that there were, I remember that well, ID
5 cards that were called -- it said on them 'SCP,' the Serbian Chetnik
6 Movement, and I know that they were banned under that name, but those ID
7 cards were left, and that was proof even more of their affiliation of who
8 they belonged."
9 And then it says, the next sentence: "Double, they had double."
10 That's what I said in my testimony, they had double IDs, and
11 that's what I'm saying now.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At the beginning of
13 the text read by the witness, there is a reference. He says there were
14 two men. They had ID cards, Seselj's men, and the translation says one
15 ID card, they were Radicals. So in the first part of the sentence, it
16 does not seem that -- at least not formally that there was one ID card
17 from the Serbian Radical Party. At least this is what I heard through
18 the translation. However, at the end of the sentence, one could think
19 that there were two ID cards. But it's not clear at all when you read
20 the first part of the sentence.
21 Mr. Prosecutor, this being said, you can now have the floor and
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the interpretation
24 you received was not correct. The correct one is: "Those were." There
25 were two people. They had ID cards, Seselj's members. So the witness is
1 speaking in disjointed sentence. "One ID," that's those Radicals, and
2 not those were the Radicals, so you get a wrong translation. That was a
3 reinterpretation of what was just said in French. It says: "Those were
4 the Radicals," so the witness gives a broader explanation, but please
5 look at what it says in the paragraph below, three lines down. The
6 witness says:
7 "I remember -- I remember that of the two that belonged to the
8 Serbian Chetnik Movement or to the Radicals ..."
9 So he identifies the Serbian Chetnik Movement with the Radicals,
10 and he's not talking about the Radicals' IDs. He says those who had IDs
11 of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, those were Radicals, in his opinion.
12 That's the essence, in his view. And then he goes on to explain what
13 they looked like.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In the first
15 translation that we heard, what was said was they were Radicals, and
16 Mr. Seselj is telling us that this is wrong, it was these were his
17 Radicals. So there's a difference between these were Radicals and these
18 were his radicals.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, I thank Mr. Seselj for all
20 his -- I already read this translation, we can ask for a new translation
21 of this passage for confirmation. This is the translation I obtained.
22 I can only quote from this translation, I can't do anymore. The witness
23 gave us his explanation regarding this passage.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is asking the CLSS
25 to translate in French and English the passage in question, read by the
1 witness in his own language.
2 Let's move on, please.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Witness, please, did you ask Repic, the younger brother, whether
5 he was a member of the SRS?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. What did he answer?
8 A. He replied in the affirmative.
9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that he also had a membership card of
10 the Chetnik Movement. Did you know at that time who headed this
12 A. Yes. Yes, I was aware of that.
13 Q. Who was it, please?
14 A. That was Mr. Vojislav Seselj.
15 Q. Thank you. Who is Ulemek?
16 A. Ulemek is one of the four people who happened to be at the Public
17 Security Station that day. He was a member of the paramilitary
18 formations run by Arkan.
19 Q. How did you know he was a member of the paramilitary formations
20 run by Arkan?
21 A. We found several ID cards on Ulemek. One of them was the
22 military ID card, the regular card ID card of the Yugoslav People's Army.
23 The other ID card -- or another ID card was that of Arkan's Tigers, and
24 the third one was that of the French Foreign Legion.
25 Q. On the card of Arkan's Tigers, was there a photograph, his
2 A. Yes, there was a photograph, and he himself confirmed in his
3 statement that he belonged to Arkan's paramilitaries and that he had in
4 his possession the ID card.
5 Q. Do you remember his first name?
6 A. As I've said earlier, he had a number of ID cards, but there was
7 the same name and the same photograph certified by a stamp in all of
8 them, and that was Miroslav Ulemek, Legija.
9 Q. What does "Legija" mean?
10 A. Legija was his nickname. I think he probably got this nickname
11 because he belonged to the French Foreign Legion.
12 Q. Thank you. What is Ulemek doing at the moment; do you know?
13 A. I think that Ulemek is currently serving his sentence which was
14 confirmed on appeal in a Serbian prison.
15 Q. Do you know why he was convicted?
16 A. He was charged with several offences, including the assassination
17 of the Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic.
18 Q. I believe that there might be a problem at line 17, page 25. You
19 talk about Milorad Ulemek or Miroslav Ulemek?
20 A. Milorad, Milorad.
21 Q. Thank you. Who was the fourth man arrested on the same day?
22 A. The fourth man was also a member of Arkan's paramilitaries, yes.
23 Q. Do you remember his name?
24 A. I think it was Zvezdan Jovanovic.
25 Q. Who is the person called "Stojanovic"?
1 A. That's the one, that's the person. On two or rather three
2 occasions that I gave statements, and it is possible that I had made a
3 mistake, a slip of a tongue.
4 Q. Very well. You said he was a member of Arkan's Tigers?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, it is not clear, what the
6 witness is affirming now, whether it is Zvijezda Novanovic or Zvijezda
7 Stojanovic, the fourth man. Let us see what is the final statement made
8 by this witness. I think it is important.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please give
10 us some details of this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I was not 100 per cent
12 certain about the last name, but I am 100 per cent certain about this
13 man, because he was present at the Public Security Station the whole day,
14 and I spoke to him on several occasions.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I could refresh
16 the witness's memory on this. Referring to his hearing, his interview of
17 July 13, 1996, page 4, paragraph 18 -- if you may, I'll read the first
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead. This is
20 authorised by the Appeals Chamber.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you:
22 [In English] " ... second arrested man was Stojanovic, a dentist
23 from Belgrade, who had Arkan's ID card as well."
24 Q. [Interpretation] Is this what you said in 1996, Mr. Alic?
25 A. Yes, that's what I stated, and that was recorded as my statement.
1 Q. Thank you. Earlier, you said that these four men, Repic, Zuto,
2 Ulemek and now Stojanovic were going to the is that Jezero Hotel in Mali
3 Zvornik. Did they tell you the names of the people they were supposed to
4 meet at the Jezero Hotel in Mali Zvornik?
5 A. No. They had the intention to go to the Jezero Hotel, but they
6 never got there, because they made a mistake and they crossed the Drina
7 River to the right bank into Bosnia sooner than they were expected, and
8 that's why they never did establish this contact.
9 Q. Very well. But who were they supposed to meet at the Jezero
11 A. At that time, they spoke about several people there. The one of
12 those persons that was supposed to be there was Arkan, and there was also
13 Brano Grujic.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you know what Arkan did before the war?
15 A. I think that I could only speculate, and I'm not here to
16 speculate. I heard that he was a pastry maker.
17 Q. You said that Repic and Zuto had been mentioned as having -- as
18 authors by people who were rescued from camps that had been set up around
19 Zvornik. Was Ulemek also mentioned by these people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about Stojanovic, was he also mentioned?
22 A. Yes. All four were mentioned, and a specific detailed
23 description was given.
24 Q. You also said that on the Serbian side, there had been phone
25 calls in order for these four men to be released from the Zvornik police
1 station. Among these four men, was there one which the Serbians seemed
2 to be more -- feel more important?
3 A. There were several phone calls made on that day. Of course, I
4 was not in contact over the phone with that person. That was done by my
5 colleague, but he briefed me regularly and he relayed to me the demands
6 made by the other side. The other side insisted on the surrender of all
7 four, but the stress was placed on Ulemek, Legija. Since Legija held the
8 military ID card of the regular Yugoslav People's Army among the ID cards
9 that he had, with the military post codes that corresponded to the
10 Pancevo military police, at first I wanted to call the military police
11 and to hand him over to them, because I thought he was a military
12 policeman, but it was just one of the ID cards that he had in order to
13 identify himself and to ensure free passage.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'm done with my question, but I
15 would like one thing to be clarified, if I may.
16 In the transcript, page 6970, line 12, there may be a problem
17 with the translation here. I said:
18 [In English] " ... against Dragan Spasojevic aided the SDS in
19 Zvornik, do you mean that he was a chairman?"
20 [Interpretation] I would like to know whether this is a mistake
21 or whether we are really talking about Mr. Brano Grujic as head of the
22 SDS in Zvornik, rather than Dragan Spasojevic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, the president of
24 the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Zvornik was Mr. Grujic.
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
1 questions, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question.
3 If I understood you well, these four people, according to you,
4 two were linked to the Chetnik Movement, possibly to Seselj's men. The
5 third one, Ulemek, has a membership card from Arkan's, and the fourth
6 one, the dentist, Stojanovic, seems also to be in the same movement as
7 Arkan. These four individuals were arrested by chance because they lost
8 their way, and you hear them, you interview them, and it seems that they
9 were supposed to meet someone at the Jezero Hotel in Mali Zvornik. They
10 were supposed to meet two people, actually, Arkan and Grusic
11 [as interpreted]. Grusic is the head in Zvornik of a party, but it is
12 not the Serbian Radical Party.
13 Is it exactly what you were said?
14 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may help you,
16 it's Grujic, not Grusic.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So these four
18 people were supposed to meet someone who was not a member of the Serbian
19 Radical Party. Is this what happened; is that it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you found out that this
22 meeting was to be held, did you try and find out what was the purpose of
23 the meeting, why the meeting had been set up? What seems quite
24 surprising is that these four individuals were dressed like Rambo. They
25 had the entire gear, you know. They were geared up like people who
1 wanted to carry out some kind of military action.
2 So did you ask them what they were supposed to do at that hotel,
3 what was the purpose of the meeting, and so on?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that day, I asked them a series
5 of questions. Among the questions I asked was the question that you just
6 mentioned. They said that they had come with the intention of helping
7 and protecting the Serb people in Zvornik, and I said, "What kind of help
8 are you offering?" And they said, "The Serb people is under threat in
9 Zvornik, it is threatened by Muslims. The Muslims are mistreating them,
10 killing them, raping them, and we are here to help them."
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this meeting seemed to have
12 been organised by Arkan and this Grujic, and the purpose was to protect
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the meeting was
15 organised by Mr. Grujic and that Arkan and all the others were the
16 paramilitaries. They were mercenaries, they were looters, and they
17 gladly responded to such summons because they were bound to get a lot of
18 money and a lot of the looted property, and they were doing that on a
19 large scale at that time.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Mr. Seselj, you can start the cross-examination. Mr. Seselj, you
22 have two and a half hours, and you may proceed. You have the floor, and
23 we will have our break around 10.00.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
25 Q. Mr. Alic, since you worked as a police officer in Belgrade and
1 you were a member of the city brigade of the police, did you ever meet me
2 in Belgrade?
3 A. Yes, quite often.
4 Q. What kinds of meetings were they?
5 A. For the most part, you often stood in front of the Federal
6 Assembly with a loudspeaker, and you made those inflammatory speeches,
7 and for the most part you had around you your entourage of followers and
8 the passersby, who would stop and look at you, and would cause
9 disturbance to the traffic. And it was our brief to make sure that the
10 traffic flowed freely, and we had to remove you from that area in order
11 to ensure that.
12 Q. And in order to remove me, you had to arrest me?
13 A. Well, if that's the term that you're using. Let me explain what
14 we did.
15 We removed you, we put you in an official vehicle, and we took
16 you to the 29th November.
17 Q. Could you explain to the Judges what the 29th November is?
18 A. That's the unit of the Ministry of the Interior, where the
19 custody area was.
20 Q. How many times did you arrest me in this manner?
21 A. Well, quite a number of times.
22 Q. How many times?
23 A. Well, sometimes once or twice daily.
24 Q. And how many times in total?
25 A. Well, at the minimum, 10 or 15 times.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: It is very easy, when you both speak the same
2 language, to just rattle off in a conversation. That, however, leaves
3 the interpreters as well as the Judges, and probably also the Prosecutor,
4 completely outside your very interesting conversation. I therefore
5 kindly ask you to respect a pause, and I don't know if the best way for
6 you, Mr. Witness, is to count to five before you answer the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So in 1990 and 1991, you took part in arresting me several times.
10 And in your statement dated 1997, it says that you did it 10 or 20 times,
11 perhaps more?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. So, Mr. Alic, we had skirmishes before. This is not the first
14 one. I'm intrigued by something you said in your examination-in-chief.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one thing. At the time,
16 you know, Mr. Seselj, did he have some kind of a mandate? Was he a
17 member of parliament or what? I'm asking this question, because if he
18 was a member of parliament, he must have had some kind immunity. You
19 can't arrest a member of parliament like that, so I'd like to know
20 exactly what happened at the time.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew at the time who we could
22 arrest and who we couldn't arrest. At that time, Mr. Seselj was nothing
23 but the president and the founder of a party.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was arrested while
25 I was a member of the parliament. I came here from the Federal
1 Parliament, so all those stories about immunity had nothing to do with
2 anything. I actually arrested myself when I was a member of the Federal
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.
5 Contrary to what you've been saying, Mr. Seselj says he'd been
6 elected, so obviously there's a difference in terms of substance. You
7 were part of the police force, so you were supposed to know the law. At
8 the time, do you know whether a member of parliament could be arrested?
9 Was it possible or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the law, it was not possible,
11 but I doubt that he had any kind of immunity, because if he had immunity
12 and if we made that mistake the first time, we couldn't have made that
13 mistake the 20th time, because by that time we would already know that he
14 had immunity.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps he needs some additional
17 I became a member of the parliament in July 1991, and Mr. Alic
18 testified that he left Belgrade in October, so that was a couple of
19 months before I became. But let me remind you that I was arrested in
20 1994 and 1995, when I had immunity, and I was kept in custody for a long
21 time. But that's immaterial. What is important to me is what Mr. Alic
22 said in his examination-in-chief, and that is that I was supposed to
23 visit Bratunac in early 1992, but that the arrival was postponed because
24 strong forces had arrived from Tuzla and they were getting ready to
25 arrest me.
1 Q. Is that what you stated, Mr. Alic?
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to know
3 whether Mr. Seselj could quote the page of the transcript he is referring
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, because the transcript has not
6 been translated into Serbian, and you know that you're not translating it
7 into Serbian but you're just giving me DVDs, and it takes my team a month
8 or more to transcribe it, to put it on paper. And instead of being
9 ashamed of what you're doing to me, you're now taunting me with it.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, you
11 cannot give a positive answer to this request because the transcript is
12 not in B/C/S. Therefore, you cannot answer this request.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think there's
15 anything that is challenged there. I assume you remember the witness
16 saying that, and he's just confirmed this. And as this is new, as far as
17 I'm concerned, I'd never heard about it before, that's the question I
18 began with.
19 Q. Mr. Alic, this happened sometime at the beginning of 1992, as far
20 as I understand.
21 A. Yes, I think that was the period.
22 Q. I was supposed to go to Bratunac, and then the special police
23 came from Tuzla to arrest me; is that what you said?
24 A. You were supposed to be present in Bratunac and to deliver some
25 of your speeches there, and we had information according to which you
1 would arrive, you would be arriving and crossing over into
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, your arrival could have caused an upset in
3 inter-human relations more than was already the case, and we wanted to
4 prevent that. We wanted to prevent that, and we would have prevented it
5 by arresting you. That's a fact, we would have arrested you.
6 Q. And what would you have done with me then?
7 A. Well, I wouldn't make the decisions. Somebody above me would
8 have made those decisions.
9 Q. Well, how could you arrest someone for preventative reasons
10 without that person having committed a crime at all?
11 A. There is a way to do that, to arrest people without them having
12 committed crimes.
13 Q. Ah, well, that's what I wanted to hear from you, those ways of
14 arresting people without them having committed any crime. Very well,
15 Mr. Alic, I'm very grateful to you for adding to my biography, my CV,
16 because I've never heard about that, but you said that the Security
17 Service cautioned me and warned me that I was going to be arrested, and
18 that's why I didn't go. So which service was it who warned me ?
19 A. According to our information, because in our building, where the
20 Public Security Station was located, there was a Department of State
21 Security, too, so that's how.
22 Q. Did you hear that before that, anywhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina I
23 held public rallies and made my political speeches; did you ever hear of
25 A. I'm not quite sure. I can't answer that.
1 Q. Well, I'll tell you. I had one in Bijeljina, in closed -- a
2 closed premises, the Serbia Cafe, and in Banja Luka as well at the end of
3 1991, in passing through towards Western Slavonia, and you've heard of
4 the Borik hall, I assume, in Banja Luka. But over there, we had already
5 established the Serbian Radical Party there, both in Bijeljina and in
6 Banja Luka, whereas in Zvornik and Banja Luka, we didn't have any -- in
7 Bratunac. And you thought we did?
8 A. I didn't know about that. I don't deal with politics.
9 Q. Well, you would have heard how the party existed; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you didn't hear about that. How could I then hold a rally in
12 a place where the Serbian Radical Party doesn't exist at all? Who would
13 have organised it for me? I assume you form a party first and then you
14 go on to work for the party.
15 A. Well, somebody should have -- could have prepared the terrain for
16 you so that you had sympathizers. The people hear of you, hear your
17 speeches, and then become members.
18 Q. But you have to set the groundwork for that, an initiative board
19 or a municipal board, and then rally the people into membership; right?
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj and the witness are
23 talking together extremely fast, and it's very difficult to raise an
24 objection. But obviously the witness is asked to speculate on a number
25 of things. He said that he had heard about a party, and when checking
1 his answers, you see that he's only speculating. So this is why I'm
2 raising an objection.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, given the objection
4 that has just been raised, the important thing is the following: In
5 Zvornik, was there, yes or no, presence of the Serbian Radical Party?
6 You said, "I was not involved in politics." Fine, but this is not what
7 you're asked. You were asked whether, as a policeman, you knew whether
8 there was or whether there was not a Serbian Radical Party in Zvornik.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question,
10 because I'm not quite sure whether it existed or not, but that
11 sympathizers of the Serb Radical Movement did exist. I can say that with
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Well, Mr. Alic, in Tuzla there are many sympathizers of the
15 Serbian Radical Party without a municipal board. There's no organisation
16 there; isn't that right?
17 A. Unfortunately, that is right.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness. We may
19 have a translation issue here.
20 In French, I heard "there were representatives of the SRS," and
21 after that I heard "sympathizers." It's not quite the same. So
22 "sympathizers," the interpreter has just corrected this.
23 According to you, there were sympathizers in Zvornik; is that
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "sympathizers," not
1 "representatives," so sympathizers of the Serbian Radical Party.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Alic, you said that you left Belgrade because in that police
4 unit, and I'm paraphrasing now, there was a burgeoning nationalistic
5 atmosphere and that your new commander, a Serb, Aleksandar Bosovic,
6 ordered that in the brigade only Serbs should remain; is that what you
8 A. No, I did not. The then commander, Aleksandar Bosovic, was the
9 commander up until that time, and he never said that. However, when he
10 was replaced with his replacement, a new commander arrived and words like
11 that were heard -- said by him.
12 Q. I'm referring you to page 3 of your 1997 statement, and that --
13 and paragraph 3 of that page is what I'd like to refer you. You say:
14 "At that time, our brigade received a new commander. He was a
15 Serb, Aleksandar Bosovic, who ordered that all policemen from our brigade
16 should only be Serbs. I attended a meeting at which he said that from
17 now on, the brigade would be known as the Serb Guard. After I heard that
18 terrible news, I decided that I was not going to stay in Belgrade at any
19 cost and that I would return to Bosnia."
20 Is that what you said?
21 A. It is true that I said that. However, I didn't say the name
22 "Aleksandar Bosovic," because Aleksandar Bosovic was the commander up
23 until that time, until that time, and he never made that statement. He
24 was quite proper, a normal man, quite different from the other man who
25 replaced me.
1 Q. Well, this is what it says in your statement. I didn't add that,
2 Mr. Alic.
3 A. I know what I said, but there might have been a mistake in the
4 translation. So I state again and claim that that is how it was.
5 Q. Please, Mr. Alic, there's no mistake in the translation. You
6 signed each page of the Serbian personally, so you signed the Serbian
7 version, not the French or the English. So there is no translation
8 error. That's how you signed it in 1997, on page 3. Here's your
9 signature, and your signature's on every page.
10 A. Mr. Seselj, I know full well what I signed. I know very well
11 what I stated. However, I claim and state that there is a mistake in the
12 writing of the name and surname of the commander up until that time and
13 from that time.
14 Q. Mr. Alic, when you read this text --
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I believe there must be a mistake.
16 On page 31, line 22, where Mr. Seselj says that the witness has signed
17 the Serbian version, what I have before me is a version in English that
18 is signed. I just wanted to specify this.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj has read
20 out to you what you stated, and in what you said, Aleksandar Bosovic was
21 the new commander, who said, "From now on, there will only be Serbs."
22 Now you're saying that this is a mistake. So you made the
23 mistake or is it the investigator who wrote this down and wrote the name
24 down? But if it's the investigator who wrote the name down, he can only
25 have written it down according to what you told him. What do you have to
1 say to that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was a mistake in the
3 translation there, because Mr. Aleksandar Bosovic was the commander up
4 until that time, which means that he was replaced at that point in time
5 and a new commander arrived who made that statement, and that new
6 commander is whom I'm referring to.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Maybe Mr. Alic signed the English version, too, but he quite
9 certainly did sign the Serbian version, and here we have his signature.
10 Now, on the second page of the statement, something was corrected
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. We
13 need to start again because we didn't get the translation.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to clarify this, in
15 the proofing notes that were sent to Mr. Seselj, as far as this paragraph
16 is concerned, something is being specified by the witness here, and he
17 mentions --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Completely impermissible. This is
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to quote some --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Impermissible.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This deserves our attention.
23 Mr. Seselj, please start again, put your question again, because
24 we could not hear the interpretation when you were speaking. I think
25 it's working again, so please repeat what you said when I interrupted
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The Prosecutor said that Mr. Alic had signed the statement in
4 English. Perhaps that is correct. I don't know. But what I can see is
5 that he signed the statement in Serbian as well. On page 3 -- page 3 is
6 where the paragraph that I quoted from is, and Mr. Alic's signature at
7 the bottom. And we can show that in court here, if need be.
8 Now, on the second page, we see here in paragraph 5 that Mr. Alic
9 corrected something in his statement. What it said was this:
10 "At the end of 1982, I graduated from the machine construction
12 And then reading the statement, he crossed that out, because the
13 word was "strojarstvo," which is a term he never used in his life, and
14 then he corrected it and said, I graduated from the school of engineers
15 for work organisation, and then you signed the correction.
16 Again, you can see that on the screen, but I fear that this is
17 going to take up too much time. Anyway, put this on the overhead
18 protector, and you'll see how conscientious Mr. Alic was in correcting
19 that and signing it, and now look at the other page that I quoted from
20 and Mr. Alic's signature there, too. Then you can return the documents
21 to me.
22 And I hope that while we're waiting, this isn't deducted from my
23 time, Mr. President.
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might be useful to
25 know when this version in B/C/S was signed, if we compare it with the
1 English version which was signed.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in your statement in
3 your language, we have a written proof of this here, you may have made
4 corrections. The first question: When were these corrections made; in
5 1996 or after that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that these were done
7 straight away when I gave the statement, but probably in reading through
8 the statement -- the rest of the statement, that I didn't happen to
9 notice what Mr. Seselj is insisting upon.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Give that back to me,
11 then. That's enough. You didn't notice it; fine.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this -- when
13 the statement, 92 bis, was signed, the first page mentioned that this was
14 signed on the 24th of July, 2005. That's when the document was signed in
15 the witness's own language.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is -- what's going on is quite
18 unbelievable. The witness signed the statement of the 19th of May, 1997,
19 in the Serbian version. Here you have his signature on page 1, on
20 page 2, and here the corrections in his own hand, and here is page 3 from
21 which I quoted, here is page 4, and every page is signed. So why don't
22 you prevent the Prosecutor from using those methods? It's impermissible.
23 This is the 1997 statement, and nowhere does it say "92 bis," so why
24 don't you intervene?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I step in when it's
1 really worthwhile. When, at first hand, the consequences are nil or
2 non-existence, then I don't, but in this case I think we should shed some
4 Mr. Prosecutor, you talk about the 24th of July 2005 and you
5 mention a 92 bis statement. If I understood you correctly, after this
6 statement was written in 1996, you prepared a written statement, a 92 bis
7 written statement; is that right?
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a written
9 statement which is a 92 bis statement, which was signed. I have the
10 first page.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is it dated?
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 26th of July, 2006, in Tuzla.
13 This is what the representative of the Registry states.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a statement dated 24th
15 of July, 2005, which the Bench does not have.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, could you
17 explain to me why I was not given that statement? I can understand why
18 you weren't, maybe you don't need it, but why wasn't I provided this 24th
19 of July, 2005 statement of the witness?
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This was disclosed to Mr. Seselj,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On what date?
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I can let you know in the course
24 of the morning, but I am positive this was disclosed to the accused.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was never disclosed to me.
1 I've never seen it. Certainly, it wasn't disclosed to me, and I was
2 preparing to ask those questions, because Mr. Asim Alic, on the 10th of
3 March in Belgrade -- or, rather, 2006, he testified in Belgrade and
4 stated on that occasion that the previous year, he gave some sort of
5 statement to the Prosecution and that he gave two statements a year
6 before that. That's what Mr. Alic said. So there are a total of three
7 statements over a period of two years prior to the testimony in Belgrade,
8 and I have received none of those statements, none of those three, and
9 that is in the transcript of the Belgrade proceedings.
10 Now, why wasn't I disclosed that? I think that that's quite
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honour, all
13 the statements made by the witness have been disclosed to the accused. I
14 shall get back to you on this.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You know, Mr. Dutertre, that
16 there were a lot of problems between Mr. Seselj and the previous Trial
17 Chambers and the pre-trial Judges. These problems were due to the fact
18 that he had been given a standby counsel. From then on, Mr. Seselj
19 refused a whole series of documents.
20 When I was asked to become the Pre-Trial Judge, I was asked to
21 check this out, and I asked the Prosecutor to disclose to Mr. Seselj all
22 those documents in a hard copy version, which -- and in his own language,
23 as far as a witness which was a Prosecution witness, it is important that
24 Mr. Seselj have all the documents, the 1996 statement, 1997, the written
25 statements made in 2005, as well as the transcript pages of his testimony
1 in Belgrade in 2006.
2 So since this is a Prosecution witness, the accused should have
3 received five documents, at the least. This is -- I don't know what the
4 issue revolves around. The previous proceedings were a bit of a mess,
5 but now we know where we stand, but we still have to deal with the
6 adverse effects of this.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] On the transcript in Belgrade,
8 this was a transcript on the 10th of March, 2008, number 275 in the
9 92 bis package, this was disclosed in several goes; on the 13th of May,
10 2008, 349 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Please read slowly, Mr. Dutertre, please.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] ... and 59, letter 59, on the
13 13th --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the date.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I can disclose this to Mr. Seselj
16 and to the Bench. As soon as I have enough copies, I can distribute
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I insist on claiming that this has
20 not been disclosed to me. And, Mr. President, you ordered, right at the
21 beginning of the trial, that the Prosecution must prepare a full set of
22 documents pertaining to that witness before he comes to testify,
23 regardless of whether the documents have been disclosed at an earlier
24 date or not. I remember that quite clearly, and the Prosecution is not
25 meeting this obligation fully. It is disclosing documents that it
1 chooses to. It should, however, provide all the documents in the folder
2 for that witness.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, in the future for
4 all Prosecution witnesses, please check that if a witness, X, Y or Z, has
5 made or provided written statements, has testified, that all of this has
6 been properly disclosed to Mr. Seselj and that you have the proof that he
7 has received the documents, i.e., acknowledgment of receipt, to avoid any
8 problem in the future.
9 MR. MUNDIS: That will be done, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
11 In addition, Mr. Mundis, since you are here in the courtroom, I
12 would like to impart to you something which the Trial Chamber wishes to
13 see in the future.
14 Mr. Ulemek, we discovered that this person was tried and
15 convicted. This was something which was addressed during the hearing.
16 We feel that we have insufficient information. We have not much
17 knowledge about legal proceedings against some people who are mentioned
18 in the statements provided by the witnesses, and the Trial Chamber would
19 like to have all the documents that relate to these witnesses that have
20 been tried in other cases. And there are two documents which are
21 important; the indictment relating to them and the judgements, if
22 judgements there are.
23 In the case of Mr. Ulemek, for instance, who was part of the
24 quatro that was arrested by this witness, I understand that he was
25 incriminated in the assassination of the former prime minister.
1 Therefore, it would be perfectly logical for the Bench to have these
2 documents, i.e., the indictment against Ulemek and the judgement that
3 convicted him, that sentenced him. We need to have this minimal
5 You know that the Rules entitle us to do this. We shall turn to
6 the Prosecution and ask it to complete this either by interviewing --
7 having the interview of Mr. Ulemek before the Trial Chamber that
8 convicted him. We need to have at least the indictment and the
9 judgement. That is the bare minimum that we are entitled to request.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I take it from those remarks that the Chamber is calling for the
12 production of this evidence, and we will file this material and make it
13 available, and request that it be assigned exhibit numbers as soon as
14 we're able to gather all the material and put it into a comprehensive
15 filing, if you will, and we'll be submitting that for its submission into
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course. Also, disclose it
18 to Mr. Seselj, if he doesn't have it yet.
19 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Alic, you mentioned that on the 5th of April, there was an
22 attack on a column -- on a JNA column in the village of Sapna and that
23 one non-commissioned officer, a sergeant, was killed, and when the army
24 returned fire, a villager from Sapna was also killed. Is that correct?
25 A. No, that's not correct.
1 Q. How was it, then?
2 A. Well, the military column moving through Sapna opened fire first
3 from the motor vehicles on the buildings, on the mosque. They opened
4 fire in order to intimidate the people.
5 Q. And who returned fire?
6 A. That's when the villagers of the Sapna village returned fire.
7 Q. How? Did they fire from their own homes, from their doors and
9 A. Well, I was not there to see it.
10 Q. So how could they just spontaneously return fire? The moment
11 they hear gunfire, they just run to their windows, they grab their
12 machine-guns, their rifles, and they open fire? Were they organised in
13 order to be able to return fire, if indeed the army was the first to open
14 fire, or did they just sporadically return fire as they grabbed their
15 weapons? How was it, then, Mr. Alic?
16 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. This was not the first case
17 where the army column would come and then the soldiers would open fire.
18 Every single column moving from Usice, from Valjevo, as they passed
19 through Mali Zvornik, as they crossed the bridge at Karakaj, I myself
20 witnessed that. I was at the Public Security Station.
21 Q. Mr. Alic, please do not waste my time. Let me just get from you
22 what happened in Sapna. I'm not interested in the broad picture.
23 You said that in Sapna, there was a clash between the army
24 personnel and the people from Sapna?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please, Mr. Seselj.
1 You made a mistake when you asked the witness to only focus on
2 Sapna. The witness is saying that this was common practice on the part
3 of the army. When they arrived in an area, they started shooting. If
4 that is a common practice, well, then, maybe this is what was done in
5 this village. So this may stand to reason.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first clash that
7 occurred in the territory of Zvornik was the one in the village of Sapna,
8 and there is no logic to what the witness is trying to do now. That was
9 the first clash. That was when the first casualties occurred, and that's
10 where it all started. A JNA column was moving from Tuzla to Zvornik, and
11 in the village of Sapna it was ambushed. There was gunfire directed at
12 the column, and this warrant officer, a non-commissioned officer, was
13 killed. The army personnel returned fire, and one of the villagers who
14 took part in the ambush was also killed.
15 Q. You know that when this clash occurred, that four or five
16 soldiers went missing? Mr. Alic, you should know that. You are aware of
18 A. Well, what you said earlier is not correct.
19 Q. Well, I'm not expecting you to be entirely honest. Let us move
20 on. I said what I had to say. You said what you had to say. You,
21 yourself, said you did not know that, that you were not in Sapna?
22 A. But my sources of information say it the way it is.
23 Q. Well, then tell me, how was it? The army personnel came in, they
24 opened fire. How did the villagers respond spontaneously from the barns,
25 they ran into their doorways, windows; how did they respond?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness. The
2 question by Mr. Seselj has been well put, so please answer the question.
3 We can clearly see the situation. The JNA arrives in the village and
4 something happens. So please tell us what you know about this, because
5 Mr. Seselj has a theory which he is developing, in his eyes, and it's
6 important also for the Trial Chamber. Before Zvornik, this incident
7 occurred in Sapna, and according to his theory, the JNA fell in an ambush
8 or was ambushed, so this is why he's putting this question to you. So
9 please answer the question according to what you know. If you can't
10 answer the question, do not speculate or misconstrue this. This is how
11 the truth can emerge.
12 Mr. Seselj, please proceed with your questions.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you know that in the course of this clash, five JNA soldiers
15 went missing, four or five, from that column? I cannot be more specific
16 than that. Do you know that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Do you know that the commander of the Tank Battalion, Captain
19 Dragan Obrenovic, threatened that if the soldiers were not freed
20 immediately, that he would raze Sapna to the ground?
21 A. Yes, I do know that.
22 Q. Do you know that that very same Captain Dragan Obrenovic was
23 tried here before this Tribunal; in the meantime, he was promoted to the
24 rank of colonel?
25 A. Well, I don't know that.
1 Q. Very well. I wanted to ask you if you knew that he actually made
2 a plea bargain with the Prosecution. But if you don't know that, we will
3 not explore that with you. We will do that through other witnesses. So
4 we will deal with Dragan Obrenovic in detail.
5 Do you know that after that, the villagers of Sapna, the armed
6 inhabitants of Sapna, handed over the four or five soldiers to the army?
7 A. Yes, I know that.
8 Q. So you know that. And then on the next day, the 6th of April,
9 did Colonel Tacic come to Zvornik and issue an ultimatum for the
10 hand-over of weapons?
11 A. Well, I know that he came, and I personally escorted
12 Colonel Tacic from the barricade to the municipality building.
13 Q. Was it the aim of his going there to ask for the surrender of
15 A. Well, I did not attend the meeting. I don't know what was
16 discussed, but I heard from the police chief, who did attend the meeting,
17 that this was one of the topics discussed.
18 Q. In your statement, at page 5, you said:
19 "My chief informed me that the colonel had called him to talk
20 about the hand-over of all the weapons on the part of the Zvornik
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Were weapons handed over to Colonel Tacic?
24 A. Well, there was an order earlier whereby the JNA seized all the
25 weapons from the Territorial Defence, but the weapons that we're talking
1 about were not handed over.
2 Q. Since the weapons were not handed over, Colonel Tacic said that
3 Zvornik would be attacked unless the weapons were handed over; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was on the 6th; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And on the 8th, there was this clash in Zvornik; is that correct?
9 A. Well, there was no crash in Zvornik. There -- what happened was
10 an attack on Zvornik.
11 Q. Well, if Serbs had to leave Zvornik because you had distributed
12 weapons to a large number of criminals in Zvornik, and that made them
13 feel insecure, well, then we can't talk about an attack on Zvornik,
14 because the Serbs had moved out of Zvornik and then started off to
15 reclaim -- recapture their town, and they had the support from the
16 volunteers and the army?
17 A. That's not correct at all.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Is this a question or is
19 Mr. Seselj testifying on what happened in Zvornik? Still, the witness
20 said that weapons had been widely given to criminals.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, the scenario
22 could be the following, and here this is conditional: The JNA goes
23 towards the village of Sapna. The JNA's ambushed. Obviously, something
24 happened, because at first you didn't say anything, and then after a
25 number of questions with Mr. Seselj, you agreed with him and said that
1 four soldiers from the JNA had been captured by the villagers. Very
2 well, but this is an armed column --
3 THE INTERPRETER: "Armoured column," interpreter's correction.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you can imagine the
5 situation, and of course there will be negotiations, and these four
6 soldiers are released. And the JNA finds out that the villagers are
7 armed, and because of this, Colonel Tacic goes to Zvornik and officially
8 asks for these weapons to be handed over, all weapons, and he poses an
9 ultimatum in that respect.
10 On the 8th, the ultimatum is actually implemented. This is the
11 scenario put forward by Mr. Seselj, through his questions and through
12 your answers.
13 Now, we would like to know whether this assumption is possible,
14 whether it's completely false. You were there, so what can you tell us
15 about this? But tell the truth. We want the truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there has been a swap
17 of arguments here. The JNA column had free passage to go anywhere. It
18 could not have been ambushed or trapped anywhere, because at that time
19 the people still trusted the Yugoslav People's Army. But because there
20 were those large-scale incidents wherever they passed, the people still
21 tolerated that. They waited patiently for better times to come.
22 When this column -- when columns passed through, they would
23 always fire in the air, fire at mosques, at other buildings, in order to
24 intimidate the people, in order to create some kind of a psychological
25 effect in the people, insecurity, and it is a fact that the villagers of
1 Sapna were armed, some of them. They had purchased the weapons, whereas
2 the Serbs got their weapons from the Yugoslav People's Army. This was
3 distributed to them in a systematic manner, with the police going house
4 to house escorting a military truck from village to village, from house
5 to house, leaving the weapons at the doorstep.
6 On the other hand, Muslims had to buy weapons with their own
7 money, and that's the truth. And they were armed, but to a lesser
9 Colonel Tacic issued this ultimatum, but only to one side, to the
10 Muslim side. He asked them to hand over their weapons, whereas as far as
11 Serbs were concerned, he actually provided weapons to them.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, how can you explain
13 that four soldiers in a motorised column, maybe even an armoured column,
14 were actually captured?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the shooting started, those
16 soldiers jumped out of the trucks and they ran into the village, and they
17 went to the first home that they encountered, and the people there took
18 them in. And it was already communicated, the fact that those people
19 were there in those houses, and the police simply came in and picked them
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll proceed after the break.
22 It's already 10 after 10.00, and we will resume in 20 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.31 a.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, and the
1 cross-examination can proceed.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, before doing that, I have
3 to tell you something.
4 A moment ago, I objected to the fact that Mr. Alic's statement
5 was not disclosed to me, the statement of 2005, and now, during the
6 break, the Prosecution provided me with two statements, two from 2006 and
7 one -- one from 2006 and the other from 2007. And in keeping with
8 Rule 92 bis, confirmation or certificate. Now, I received that, that's
9 true, but here we heard Mr. Alic made a statement in 2005, and that's the
10 one I don't have much all I have is an agreement from Mr. Alic that his
11 previous statements can be used in trials before the International
12 Tribunal or other institutions, as the formulation is here.
13 Anyway, if there was a misunderstanding, the misunderstanding was
14 caused by the Prosecutor. Now I want to ask the following question: Is
15 there a third statement by Mr. Alic before the proofing session that the
16 Prosecution had with him three days ago? If there has, I've still not be
17 disclosed of it. Now, if they call the statement of 2005, provided by
18 the authorised official, I'm asking why they're calling this authorised
19 official's version a statement by Mr. Alic.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 We're glad that Mr. Seselj has confirmed that he has already
23 obtained these documents. Then is the 92 bis package of 1995 covering
24 1996 and 1997? There's no ambiguity there. I have a list here of
25 everything that was disclosed, with a disclosure letter. If it's useful,
1 I may distribute it right now, but it corroborates all the -- it
2 corroborates the fact that everything was disclosed.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you well, in
4 2005, the document of 2005 is not a new statement. According to the
5 92 bis statement, it referred to the statements made in 1996 and 1997.
6 There is no new written statement for July 2005.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, this is in the
8 92 bis procedure. There is no new statement.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Please, Mr. Seselj, proceed.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that is really the case, then I
12 assume everything has been cleared up. But still there is a shadow of
13 doubt, as far as I'm concerned, but I can't do anything else and act upon
14 it. So I'll have to be satisfied with the explanation just given.
15 Q. Anyway, Mr. Alic, here you state that members of the Serbian
16 Radical Party, and you said that in several places, took part in the
17 conflicts in Zvornik; is that right?
18 A. There was no conflict in Zvornik. They launched an attack on
20 Q. Well, the side that was attacked, I assume, defended itself. You
21 shot, didn't you, and then you became afraid and fled. Fadil Mujic said
22 that nobody during that attack on your side was killed. Do you know that
23 statement by Fadil Mujic? He was the chief of the crime department.
24 A. He probably said that, yes.
25 Q. You say that somebody was killed during that conflict?
1 A. Nobody in the police force.
2 Q. I see. But there was a conflict, and I state that the attack was
3 launched by those who had previously taken control of Zvornik, armed the
4 citizens, among them criminals, and that this led to the exodus of the
5 Serb population. You said that the attack was launched by those who
6 entered into the conflict on the 8th of April, so we don't have to agree
7 on that matter. We were on opposite sides, so we can disagree. But you
8 heard that members of the Serbian Radical Party arrived there; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As a highly-positioned police official, you know that volunteers
12 of the Serbian Radical Party came to Mali Zvornik from Belgrade; am I
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As a high police official, I assume that you must have known how
16 it was that the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party came to
17 Mali Zvornik from Belgrade. Somebody must have reported that, informed
18 you of that?
19 A. We knew that they were -- that they came there frequently, but
20 that was in Serbia, not Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. This came frequently, I really don't know what that means. They
22 came once and they came in two buses. Were you aware of that?
23 A. Just on one occasion, that was.
24 Q. That was just prior to the conflict; isn't that right?
25 A. I really don't know. I don't know how many of them arrived, but
1 I know that there were quite a few of them.
2 Q. Well, I'll tell you. They came in two busloads, two busloads of
3 them arrived, and you know that Arkan's men came, too; is that right?
4 A. I can claim what I know for certain, and this is what I know: I
5 know that from seeing people who were in the Public Security Station, who
6 had been taken into custody, that's the best proof, as far as I'm
8 Q. Mr. Alic, we haven't come to that yet. Why are you trying to
9 escape from the topic we're discussing? You heard and say in your
10 statement that Arkan's men arrived, and then you said that they held the
11 barricade at Karakaj; isn't that what you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I don't know if Arkan's men were indeed in Karakaj, but I do know
14 that that's where the Serb police in Zvornik had its headquarters; right?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. So Arkan's men arrived. Do you know how Arkan's men arrived?
17 A. I know on that on the previous day, the police patrol that went
18 out to Pilica was stopped at the barricade by Arkan's men and was
20 Q. All right. That means that you don't know that Arkan's men
21 arrived by bus as well?
22 A. I don't know what means of transport they used, but I know they
23 were there. I don't know how many that were there, but I know they
24 arrived in buses.
25 Q. Are you challenging that, when I tell you that they arrived in
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and pauses
3 between question and answer for the benefit of one and all. Thank you.
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You know that there was a tank battalion there which held four
6 positions in the area around Zvornik, commanded by Dragan Obrenovic; do
7 you know that?
8 A. Yes, I do. The armoured battalion came from Jastrebarsko,
9 withdrawing from Croatia, and went to Celopek.
10 Q. Now, you should know that the JNA had engaged a certain number of
11 reservists from the Zvornik area. Isn't that right?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. Now, among the reservists -- were the reservists mostly Serbs or
14 almost exclusively Serbs?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that because the Muslims refused to respond to the JNA call-up
17 to become included in the reserve force?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Is it also true and correct that the Muslim authorities from
20 Sarajevo, and personally present, Alija Izetbegovic, called upon the
21 Muslims not to respond to the call-up for mobilisation of the reserve
23 A. That is correct, because the Muslims were sent to battle fronts
24 in Croatia, so that was the reason they were told not to respond to that
1 Q. That might have been the reason. I'm not interested in the
2 reasons, I'm not going to go into that. I'm just interested in facts.
3 So we agree there about the facts.
4 So the Muslims were set aside through their own free will. They
5 were called up to join the reserve force, and the structure would have
6 been the same as the national composition was, had they responded?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the interpreters
8 are begging you once again to speak slower to make breaks. You know,
9 they're doing excellent work. Sometimes they manage to translate in
10 realtime, but sometimes, you know, they have a very hard time trying to
11 follow you because you're going so fast. Please slow down.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll slow down, I'll
13 promise to slow down, but I don't know how long I'll be able to keep my
14 promise, because very often to be quite frank I forget my promises. And
15 since Mr. Alic and I understand each other very well, although we're on
16 opposite sides, that's what happens.
17 Q. Mr. Alic, had all the Muslims responded to the call-up to go to
18 the reserve force of the JNA, would that mean that the structure of those
19 units, those JNA units, would have been identical to the structure of the
20 population of Zvornik Municipality, so almost 50/50, a little more
21 Muslims perhaps than Serbs, but roughly 50/50?
22 A. No, that wouldn't have meant that.
23 Q. Why not?
24 A. Because the Muslims in that war were just being used, and
25 ultimately what happened to us in Bosnia-Herzegovina happened.
1 Q. Well, these are all assumptions and speculation, what would have
2 happened if this happened. Anyway, what would have happened, Mr. Alic,
3 had the Muslim authorities from Sarajevo proclaimed the independence of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Would there have been war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Yes, there would.
6 Q. Why?
7 A. Because your aspirations and those for a Greater Serbia would
8 have meant a new Yugoslavia and Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, no part of
10 Q. But leave aside my aspirations, Mr. Alic. I was an individual at
11 the head of a very small party and the only deputy in Parliament. Do you
12 know about the Belgrade Declaration?
13 A. I don't.
14 Q. Do you know that an agreement was reached with the -- between the
15 authorities in Belgrade and Izetbegovic, personally, that
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain within the composition of a rump
17 Yugoslavia and that Izetbegovic should be the first president of such a
18 Yugoslavia? Do you know about that, do you know of that agreement?
19 A. I do not. That was politics. I don't enter into politics.
20 Q. All right. If you don't, I'm not going to force you to state
21 your views in the matter.
22 Now, on several occasions here, you mentioned Dragan Spasojevic,
23 and he was the commander of the police in Zvornik, was he not?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And you were his deputy; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you happen to know that Dragan Spasojevic took part in a crime
3 against the Muslims, any civilians, soldiers, policemen, whatever;
5 A. I don't know that.
6 Q. Now, your relationship with Dragan Spasojevic, were they correct
7 and proper?
8 A. Very correct and professional.
9 Q. And you had a good opinion of him, did you not?
10 A. Yes, mostly.
11 Q. Okay, fine. Now, Dragan Spasojevic says hello to you, and sent
12 me his statement, in which he says things about those same events -- he
13 talks about the same events that you talked about.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj's first comment is
16 totally inappropriate as to what Mr. Dragan Spasojevic can say to the
17 witness. As for the rest, he may proceed.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Seselj.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand that objection
20 from the Prosecutor. What could Dragan Spasojevic say to the witness? I
21 have Dragan Spasojevic's statement here before me, and I want to show it
22 to the witness. Could it be placed on the overhead projector? I've
23 tried to ensure photocopying of this document. However, the photocopy
24 machine was otherwise engaged, so that was not possible. It was working
1 Have you already copied it? Have you handed it 'round. If you
2 have, that's very good. It is 1/1. Great, so it is successful. I
3 thought we were going to have problems with the photocopying procedure.
4 Anyway, let's put this on the overhead projector, it is
5 Dragan Spasojevic's statement, so we can see what he says here.
6 He says that he knows you personally, he knows that you worked in
7 Belgrade, that you went to Zvornik, and then what we're interested in is
8 his statements about what you did in Zvornik.
9 Is that on our screens, is it on the overhead? Right.
10 Anyway, Dragan Spasojevic says of you the following:
11 "In Zvornik, he worked to rally the active and reserve police
12 force of Muslim ethnicity and prepared the formation of a Muslim MUP. He
13 effected close cooperation with a man named Hajra who was sent from the
14 SDA leadership to four Muslim territorial units and to train the military
15 and arm them."
16 Is that correct?
17 A. No, it is not.
18 Q. Well, you yourself said that in the police station, on two
19 occasions meetings were held of the Crisis Staff, the crisis staff of a
20 political party, the Party of Democratic Action, which rallied Muslims,
21 and that you attended those meetings; is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. All right, fine. And then Spasojevic goes on to state the
25 "Asim Alic became actively included in infiltrating members of
1 the paramilitary units of the Patriotic League into the reserve force of
2 the police of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and thereby through regular
3 channels armed the units of the Patriotic League."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. No, it's not.
6 Q. And who, then, Mr. Alic, just prior to the conflict, distributed
7 a full set of weapons from the police station in Zvornik to the Muslim
8 population, then?
9 A. The populous broke through into the de-person warehouse and
10 picked up the weapons themselves.
11 Q. And armed themselves well?
12 A. Well, there wasn't much weapons there.
13 Q. Well, several hundred automatic rifles were there, weren't there?
14 A. That's not true.
15 Q. What did you say?
16 A. That piece of information is not true.
17 Q. All right, then. How many automatic rifles were there?
18 A. Before that, the entire reserve force of the police was called
19 up, and they were 50 per cent Serbs, 50 per cent Muslims at the time, and
20 they were armed with those weapons and they were our reserve policemen,
21 our reserve force, because in our warehouses there might have been just a
22 certain number of weapons which were issued to the active police force
23 and also to the reserve police force. They had no other reserves.
24 Q. And as you said, the people broke through into the warehouses,
25 and how many rifles did they come across there?
1 A. Very few.
2 Q. I see, very few weapons, very few rifles. Anyway, Spasojevic
3 goes on to say about you that in October 1991, he or you took part in the
4 formation of the first units of the Patriotic League in the village of
5 Godus where to this day there is a monument as a remembrance of that
6 event. Is that true?
7 A. This is not true at all. In October, I moved to Zvornik to work,
8 and here it says "seven months ago."
9 Q. Here it says "in October 1991." That's the fifth paragraph on
10 page 1.
11 A. Well, I moved from Belgrade to Zvornik only in October to work,
12 so I didn't know the people, I didn't know the place. How was I then
13 supposed to organise all that? That's not true.
14 Q. Well, it doesn't say here that you organised it. It says here
15 that you participated in the forming.
16 A. Well, that's not true, either.
17 Q. And is there a monument commemorating this event?
18 A. Well, at the entrance to the village of Godus, there is a plaque
19 where it says that the villagers of the village of Godus were the first
20 to offer resistance to the aggressor, so it is not a monument.
21 Q. And when did they offer resistance?
22 A. I don't know the exact date, but I know that there were some
23 skirmishes up at Majevica.
24 Q. What kind of skirmishes and gunfire in Majevica, Mr. Alic,
25 please? Come on. Before the conflict in Zvornik, there was nothing up
2 A. Well, then you know more about it than I do.
3 Q. Well, yes, because I studied that, and you were not prepped for
4 your testimony properly.
5 A. Well, I was there.
6 Q. Mr. Alic, this paragraph that you tried to misinterpret does not
7 refer to you. It says here:
8 "Seven months before the conflict broke out, they set up a unit
9 of the Patriotic League with about 150 members, with full infantry
10 equipment, clothes, helmets, flak-jackets, automatic weapons. This event
11 engendered a response on the Serbian side. The Serbs started arming
12 themselves because of the bad experience from the Second World War with
13 the Muslims. Is that correct?
14 A. No, it's not.
15 Q. No? Fair enough. Is it true that when Cutileiro's plan was
16 passed in March 1992, Momcilo Mandic sent an official dispatch calling
17 for the MUP employees in Zvornik to state their affiliation, which side
18 they wanted to be on; is that correct?
19 A. Well, that's not how it was worded.
20 Q. How was it worded, then?
21 A. We'd received a dispatch from the Federal Secretariat of the
22 Interior that we should go to our rally in Sarajevo to express our
23 commitment to have unified police, to lend our support to the unified
24 police force in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. And only the Muslim police officers went there; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's a different matter. Are you aware of Momcilo Mandic's
4 A. Yes, I know about Momcilo Mandic's dispatch. It says in there
5 that all the valuables that were seized and that were in the Public
6 Security Station should be handed over to the federal SUP, and that's
7 what we did.
8 Q. You're not aware of the other thing?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you attend a collegium meeting?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you talk about the separation or the division of the MUP
13 in terms of personnel and equipment?
14 A. Well, there was no such agreement.
15 Q. Well, Dragan Spasojevic says there was such an agreement and that
16 you attended this?
17 A. Well, Dragan Spasojevic can say whatever he wants to. I am
18 saying what I'm saying, and that's correct.
19 Q. Well, what Dragan Spasojevic is claiming is also true.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, it is impossible to
21 interpret at this rate of speed. The speakers are kindly asked to slow
22 down and make questions [as interpreted] before questions and answers.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, again I'm sorry that we have to ask
24 you, both of you, to slow down.
25 Mr. Witness, if you could look at the cursor on the screen in
1 front of you, then you will notice that it stops running when the
2 interpretation has ended. That might be another indication for you as to
3 when you can reply to questions put to you by the accused. So please be
4 aware of the movements on the screen in front of you.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Alic, let us move on to the next claim made by
8 Mr. Spasojevic. He says:
9 "Asim Alic, that evening, together with the criminals from
10 Zvornik and members of the Patriotic League, organised and led an action
11 to take the Public Security Station in Zvornik, where a bloodbath was
12 avoided by pure chance. This incident caused a definitive split in the
13 Zvornik police and of course in the people, among the people too. That's
14 when the Serb police officers withdrew to Karakaj, where there was a
15 majority Serb population."
16 Is that correct?
17 A. No, that's not correct.
18 Q. And what you said, that the people spontaneously broke into the
19 depots, that was not really spontaneous. You lead the people, did you
21 A. Well, no, I did not.
22 Q. Well, why should Dragan Spasojevic be lying?
23 A. Well, what am I supposed to be saying?
24 Q. Well, you say what you're supposed to say. That doesn't matter,
25 because the Prosecution trusts Dragan Spasojevic more than it trusts you.
1 And then he says:
2 "Alic personally led the group that broke into the depots of the
3 Public Security Station in Zvornik and seized weapons, uniforms, official
4 IDs and other equipment of the Minister of the Interior, distributing all
5 of that to members of the Patriotic League and local criminals."
6 Listing them, Behulj [phoen], Musadic [phoen], Kalilovic [phoen]
7 and others:
8 "This forced all the Serbs to leave Zvornik, and Asim Alic, with
9 the group that he led, broke into apartments and houses of eminent
10 Serbs - names are listed here, Petko Panic [phoen], Miko Milovanovic
11 [phoen], and Marinko Vasilic [phoen] - and looted those properties.
12 Hardened criminals were stationed at the border crossings with Serbia to
13 prevent Muslims who wanted to cross over into Serbia, because they were
14 aware of the bad situation that Alic and his people created in the city."
15 Is that true, Mr. Alic?
16 A. Well, that's not true. That's a notorious lie.
17 Q. Do you know Petko Panic, Miko Milovanovic and Marinko Vasilic?
18 A. Petko Panic was a police officer that was my subordinate, and
19 Miko Milovanovic was a colleague of mine, and he was --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.
21 Mr. Dutertre is on his feet.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we briefly move into closed
23 session, please.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 7088-7090 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Alic, let us look at the last paragraph of
19 Dragan Spasojevic's statement at page 1. It says:
20 "I know that Alic was tasked by AID to mention that among the
21 captured Serbs, there were members of the Serbian Radical Party. Some
22 people who participated in the arrest talked about that. I also know for
23 sure that he has been in Sarajevo recently, for seven or eight days, to
24 hold some talks at AID."
25 Is that correct, Mr. Alic?
1 A. No, not at all.
2 Q. In your examination-in-chief here, you said that you immediately
3 sent a dispatch to Sarajevo and to Tuzla about the fact that four Serbs,
4 wearing uniforms, fully armed, had been arrested. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before moving on to the four
7 whom you arrested, it is mentioned that you went to Sarajevo and there
8 you met the State Security Services or Intelligence Services, and at
9 their request you said that Mr. Seselj could be involved in one way or
10 another. So let me remind you that you have taken the oath and that you
11 have said that you will tell all the truth. If ever we discover that
12 there was a meeting in Sarajevo and that you tell us the opposite, well,
13 then you will be charged with contempt of court.
14 So what do you have to say to these statements made by the
15 witness, who says, "I know that Mr. Alic met AID"? Is it true or is this
16 not true?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not true at all. I never
18 met with any AID officials, and I don't know where their headquarters is
19 in Sarajevo at all.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. A little while ago, the AID changed its name, did it not,
23 Mr. Alic?
24 A. I know that there was some talk about that, but I don't know the
25 exact name, because it is an organizational unit that has nothing to do
1 with us.
2 Q. Is it maybe SIPA, S-I-P-A, or close?
3 A. No, it is not SIPA.
4 Q. Now, at page 2, Dragan Spasojevic describes the way in which the
5 four people were freed. He describes the role of Fadil Mujic, and you
6 confirm that Fadil Mujic had assisted in obtaining their release; is that
8 A. Let me just read it.
9 Q. And in return, Fadil Mujic was allowed to leave Zvornik through
10 Serbia and go to Germany; is that right? Just to go through briefly
11 through all these passages so I don't have to read all that. Is it true
12 that Fadil Mujic released the four and was allowed in return to go to
13 Germany via Serbia?
14 A. Yes, that's what Fadil told me.
15 Q. Let's not dwell on this for a long time, because I will have the
16 opportunity to discuss this with other people.
17 Now, let me move to the third passage, because it concerns you.
18 Spasojevic says:
19 "When the war began, Asim Alic fled to Tuzla, and on the 22nd of
20 May, 1992, he went from Tuzla to Sapna and was appointed the commander of
21 the Public Security Station. A terrible crime against Serbs and the
22 ethnic cleansing of Serbs happened in Sapna at that time. He personally
23 led the police in the effort to ethnically cleanse and kill the Serb
24 civilians in the villages of Rizanj, Zavid, Rastosnica, and Laze,
25 et cetera. While he was the commander in Sapna, all the Serbs were
1 either killed or expelled, and it became a 100 per cent ethnically pure
2 Muslim territory."
3 Is that correct?
4 A. No, that's not correct.
5 Q. Is it true that all the Serbs in Sapna disappeared?
6 A. Well, there was no Serbs in Sapna. Sapna was a ethnically-pure
7 Muslim village.
8 Q. How can you say that in Rizanj, Zavid, Rastosnica, and Laze,
9 there were no Serbs? These are all villages around Sapna; is that so?
10 Sapna is now a municipality, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And all those villages are in the municipality of Sapna?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where are the Serbs from those villages, Mr. Alic?
15 A. They left.
16 Q. And how many of them were killed?
17 A. Well, I don't know. I don't have the figure.
18 Q. And as the commander of the Public Security Station in Sapna, did
19 you ever file any criminal reports against any Muslim soldiers,
20 paramilitaries, police officers, armed civilians, for crimes against
21 Serbs; murder, beatings, looting of property, burning of houses?
22 A. Well, it was not in my jurisdiction.
23 Q. In whose jurisdiction was that?
24 A. Military security.
25 Q. Well, that's if somebody from the regular army commits a crime.
1 If a civilian commits a crime, an armed civilian, under whose
2 jurisdiction were such crimes?
3 A. Under our jurisdiction, but there were no such crimes.
4 Q. But who burned all those Serb houses in those villages?
5 A. Well, I can't answer that question.
6 Q. Well, you can't, you can't. Let us move on.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we find out, because
8 this is something I did not know, you commanded the police in Sapna, and
9 this something I didn't know about, either; seemingly, some Serbs were
10 killed. As a police commander of the civilian police, you should have
11 carried out investigations. If the investigations established that the
12 perpetrators of the crimes are policemen or belonging to the military,
13 then you are quite right, it is for the military police and the military
14 prosecutor to carry out the investigation and do what is necessary. But
15 if it so happens that among those people who perpetrated these acts, some
16 people were civilians, then it was for you to do something about it.
17 Your answer is elliptical. If you can tell us, as a commander of
18 the police forces, of the civilian police in Sapna, whether you carried
19 out any investigations after some people disappeared or some people were
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't any such cases. What
22 is stated here is not the truth. Sapna is an exclusively Muslim place,
23 inhabited by Muslims. Now, the places that Mr. Seselj mentions, there
24 were Serbs there, but in the military operations they were cleansed, in
25 military operations.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Very well, Mr. Alic. Dragan Spasojevic goes on to say:
5 "In the course of 1993," and he's referring to you, "Because of
6 his merits, he was appointed chief of the police in Sapna."
7 So that's a higher post and command? Isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Near his office, for days, there was the head of a Serb,
10 Cedo Nikolic, impaled on a pole, whom the Muslims had taken prisoner, had
11 captured in a purely Serb village of Boskovic?
12 A. That's a notorious lie.
13 Q. Had you heard of Cedo Nikolic?
14 A. No, but such things never happened in those areas. That's
16 Q. Well, you don't assume that Dragan Spasojevic is lying, these are
17 total lies, or why would a colleague of yours lie when you say you're on
18 good terms?
19 A. Well, I'm asking that myself.
20 Q. He goes on to say about you:
21 "He left Sapna because of crimes and the trafficking -- illegal
22 trafficking of cigarettes, and through his criminal associates, he was
23 placed commander of the Tuzla Canton MUP units, and that unit was well
24 known because of its special brutality in the ethnic cleansing of Vozuca
25 and the surrounding Serb villages."
1 Is that true?
2 A. That is a notorious lie, too.
3 Q. Is it true that your unit took part in the -- in taking control
4 of Vozuca?
5 A. Well, I know those areas better than you, and that's not true.
6 Q. You didn't take part in taking control of Vozuca?
7 A. My unit was in Vozuca to protect the material property there,
8 because the army had already freed it.
9 Q. And where are the Serb civilians from Vozuca?
10 A. They left together with the army, when the army withdrew.
11 Q. Well, why did they leave?
12 A. Ask the 2nd Corps that, who liberated the area.
13 Q. And who is the commander of the 2nd Corps?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. How do you not know who the commander of the 2nd Corps was of
16 your army, how could you not know that? How should I know if you don't?
17 A. Well, I see you know everything, so you should know that, too.
18 Q. You're the witness here, not me. When I am a witness, I'll say
19 what I know, but now you must tell me who the commander of the 2nd Corps
21 A. I don't remember the name. There were three of them.
22 Zeljko Knez was there first, then there was Azim Sadic, and after that
23 there was -- there was another commander. I don't know his name.
24 Q. All right, fine. If you happen to remember, tell us.
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. After the war, he issued false documents in the name of those who
2 had died, were killed, or Muslims living abroad, so that in that way he
3 could populate places in the Republika Srpska with Muslims, and then
4 these names are mentioned, Mahala Jusici, Dugi Do; is that correct?
5 A. They're all Muslim places that you are mentioning now, and this
6 is one of a series of lies that he is putting forward. And I'd like to
7 see that letter if possible, Your Honour.
8 Q. Of course, this will all be published in the newspaper in a few
9 days, but he says they aren't Muslims places -- Mahala Jusici and Dugi Do
10 are Muslim places, but what he says is this: That the Muslims who lived
11 there, that they had either died, been killed, or left and took up
12 residence abroad.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry for
15 interrupting, but I would like to seek certification of the decision you
16 handed down a few moments ago as regards a document quoted by Mr. Seselj
17 and the protective measures therein.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are saying this in
19 open session.
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] But I haven't quoted any names,
21 but we can move into private session.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall move into private
23 session, and in the meantime, before redaction is ordered, so, please,
24 Mr. Registrar, please issue an order for this to be redacted, and the
25 Trial Chamber will deliberate instantly.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber, after having
3 deliberated on the matter, has rejected the request for certification in
4 open session.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have a second issue which is not
6 connected to the first one.
7 The documents which Mr. Seselj relies on during his
8 cross-examination were given to me when the cross-examination had started
9 already. I believe that this is a problem, and the OTP can legitimately
10 expect these documents to be provided to him before the beginning of the
11 cross-examination. I would like a decision to be taken on the matter,
12 which I think it's an issue relating to the equality of arms.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this document which
14 you had received, according to the fax number we can read on the
15 document, this seems to indicate that you received it on the 15th of May,
16 at 13 minutes past 2.00. No, the 14th of May. How is it that you did
17 not disclose this at the start of the hearing to the Prosecution, since
18 you have mentioned this document in the middle of your cross-examination?
19 I remember that you had asked to have a copy, you wanted to make
20 copies and the photocopying machine wasn't working properly. How can you
21 explain this? The document reached you on the 14th of May and was not
22 disclosed in B/C/S to the Prosecutor this morning before the commencement
23 of your cross-examination.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really did receive
25 the document on the 14th of May, during the examination-in-chief,
1 somewhere towards the end of the in-chief. So I had to read it first,
2 this document and other documents which I received. Then I had to make a
3 selection, and then on Friday -- or, rather, on Thursday and Friday --
4 or, rather, on Friday and Saturday, I had from 9.00 until 1.00 a visit by
5 high-ranking officials of the Serbian Radical Party, Tomislav Nikolic and
6 Dragan Todorovic, and I assume you're aware of the fact that we're
7 forming a new government in Serbia, and the party whose president I still
8 am is taking part in the formation of that government, so we had to hold
9 consultations about that, and I'm still the party President, although I'm
10 a prisoner here of the enemies of the Serbs. And in the afternoon, my
11 wife visited me. On Thursday -- or, rather, Friday, Saturday, in the
12 afternoon, Sunday morning, and all day Monday.
13 So quite literally, I didn't have any time to take any steps with
14 respect to photocopying, and today, as soon as I arrived here, Mr. Ram
15 came from the Registry, and I gave him those documents over to him to
16 have them copied, and I was afraid they would not be copied because the
17 photocopying machine was engaged. So what else could I do? You know
18 that the prison authorities don't wish to provide me with any
19 photocopying facilities.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Your explanations
21 are satisfactory. You told us and you explained why you were not able,
22 in did due time, to disclose these documents.
23 However, I would have to tell you that I disagree on part of what
24 you said. When I agree with you, I tell you, but when I disagree, I also
25 tell you.
1 You said, "I'm here as a prisoner of those who are against the
2 Serbs." Well, I can tell you that you're not my prisoner, as far as I'm
3 concerned. And as far as the Bench is concerned, we are not anti-Serb,
4 as you seem to say or hint.
5 I wanted this to be said so that everything is clear.
6 Mr. Dutertre.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't really know how difficult
8 this is materially, but I did -- I only obtained these documents during
9 the break, and the cross-examination hardly started. I spent quite a
10 while during the examination-in-chief, and I believe that this time could
11 have been used to make the photocopies so that I could get the documents
12 before the cross-examination started.
13 I don't know when exactly Mr. Seselj gave these documents, but if
14 he had handed them over to the Registry in due time, we could have had
15 the photocopies before the cross-examination started, and I think
16 practically it would be good if things were run that way.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a problem with this
19 objection. Through this objection, we would not want too much importance
20 to be given to this document. Let me repeat what I have said on many
22 This document is a statement made by a witness. We don't know
23 how it was made. We don't know much. We only know what is written in
24 this document, but it doesn't prove that things happened that way. The
25 only thing that is certified is the signature of the person making the
2 Mr. Seselj is using this document to ask questions. He was
3 allowed to do this. He is allowed to do this, but I want things to be
4 very clear. This -- according to me, this document should not be given
5 too much importance. The only thing we provide importance to is the
6 answers given by the witness.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I fully agree with this, I
9 support this, but I would like to make sure that in the future, we have
10 the documents in time. And I don't want to focus on this document, but
11 we should have the document in time so that the OTP can get ready.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Seselj, I fully
13 support what my fellow Judge just said. Of course you may ask a question
14 using a document, but as to the probative value, remember that we have a
15 witness that is under oath. He is challenging what is in the statement.
16 When your own witness comes to testify, he will also be under oath. He
17 will also answer your questions. I'm sure you will use this document to
18 ask your questions. And then the probative value of the document might
19 possibly be at the same level as what the witness is saying today. This
20 is the way things work, and you know it as well as I do. So my fellow
21 Judge was absolutely right to point this out.
22 Please proceed.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, had I not had the
24 assistance of persons who were direct participants in these historical
25 events, I would have absolutely no idea about them. What would I know
1 about Mr. Alic had Dragan Spasojevic not come to my assistance and
2 written what he knows about him? So I can't just invent questions for
3 Mr. Alic. And during the examination-in-chief, I drew your attention to
4 the contradictions in his various statements, and the Prosecutor did his
5 best to hide them. But I wasn't there, I have no idea what happened, and
6 I would never have learned what had happened over there if I had not been
7 accused here of something I did not take part in.
8 Now that I have information, I have sources of where I got the
9 information, so this is proof that I'm not inventing things, since you
10 assumed on many occasions that perhaps I might be inventing things along
11 the way.
12 And let me tell you one more thing. When I said that I was a
13 prisoner here of Serb enemies, the enemies of Serbs, well, I didn't think
14 of you, personally, or your colleagues. True Frenchmen cannot be an
15 enemy of the Serbs, but we have French regimes from Mitterrand onwards
16 who are expressly anti-Serb. But I do believe that many Frenchmen, most
17 Frenchmen are the friends of Serbs from World War I, I know that the
18 Italians were friends of ours, and we've never had any conflicts with the
19 Danes, perhaps because we're very far away from them, that might be one
20 reason; but there was never any hostility or enemy feelings.
21 Now that your regime is against the Serb people, I assume they
22 might be punished as they were -- the Italians were, so I hope that I
23 will see the day arrive when friends of the Serbs in France will come to
24 power. This man Sarkozy is even worse than his predecessors.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is a political speech,
1 Mr. Seselj, and you're not entitled to do this. You cannot use this as a
2 forum to make political speeches.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, what we're
4 interested in is what happened at the time. The rest of what you're
5 saying might be interesting, but please say it in another forum.
6 So please proceed with your cross-examination, and maybe -- just
7 ask the questions that are interesting for your case.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let's round off this question of Dragan Spasojevic. He says one
10 more thing of you. He says:
11 "I know that at the moment he's working in the MUP of the Tuzla
12 Canton and that he was suspended for criminal acts."
13 That is to say, receiving bribes and issuing false documents; is
14 that correct?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. I like these short answers. You say it's not
17 correct, he says it is, and we're finished with that.
18 Now, I have another document here. I don't know whether it's
19 been photocopied, whether we had time for that. It's from the Centre for
20 Research of Crime committed on the Serb people," signed by the leader of
21 the center Milivoj Ivanisevic. Have you heard of Milivoj Ivanisevic,
22 Mr. Alic?
23 A. No, I have not heard of him.
24 Q. Milivoj Ivanisevic intensively and systematically is doing
25 research into crimes against the Serbian population in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You know there war crimes against the Muslims,
2 crimes against the Serbs and crimes against the Croats, and this is
3 indisputable. But he deals with one segment, one section of those
4 crimes, crimes perpetrated against the Serbs in this case. And in that
5 centre of his, your name is mentioned, so I'm going to show a document
6 now and we're going to comment on it briefly which relates to you.
7 Could you just show the first page? We're not going to dwell on
8 it, and move on to page 2 straight away. But let's have it on the
9 overhead projector.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Unless I'm
11 wrong, this document was not disclosed to us.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, yes, which document
13 is it? Your documents have numbers "I1" and "2/3." Could you tell us
14 exactly which document you're using?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just place page 1 on the overhead
16 projector. I know it's page 2, but I'm not quite sure. What number is
17 it, number 2? Perhaps we didn't have time to photocopy that. You can
18 see the title page of the document, though. Perhaps we can leave this
19 document until after the break and I could start off with the documents
20 that you do have in your possession.
21 So shall we leave this for the next session?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You can address
23 these issues after the break. The document will first be photocopied,
24 because no one has it. Then the Prosecutor will have a copy, as well as
25 the Bench, and you will ask questions on this document after the break.
1 So please move on to another document for now.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Alic, let's now come to these four people, deal with these
4 four people who were stopped at the Muslim barricade towards Karakaj in
5 the night between the 7th and 8th of April.
6 In your statements, you say that two of those men had membership
7 cards of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the other two of the Serbian
8 Volunteer Guard; right?
9 A. I said that two men had membership cards of the Serbian Chetnik
10 Movement, and parallel to that, membership cards of the Serbian Radical
12 Q. That is not contained in your 1996 and 1997 statements, and
13 that's what I'm referring to. Can you now describe to the Judges here
14 what the membership card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement looked like, or
15 identification card? What did it look like? How do you remember it as
17 A. The membership card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement was a
18 membership card which, on the first page, had three letters in the
19 Cyrillic, "SCP," which was abbreviated for the Serbian Chetnik Movement,
20 and that was in some sort of circle over which was the Serbian "Tricolor"
22 Q. How many pages did the membership card of the Serbian Chetnik
23 Movement have?
24 A. You would open it like you would the former ID cards. It was a
25 little bigger.
1 Q. And how many colours were there on it?
2 A. Three.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the Prosecution showed you
4 what the Serbian Chetnik Movement ID card looked like. I think it was
5 during the evidence of Protected Witness 007 or the witness before that
6 one, and you were able to see that the Serbian Chetnik Movement ID card
7 is one small card. It doesn't have any pages, and it is only one colour.
8 There is no tri-colour. It is a dark blue item. This was shown to you
9 here, and it was admitted into evidence. I don't recall the actual
10 exhibit number, but I think that you all remember what the Serbian
11 Chetnik Movement card looked like.
12 I think that the Protected Witness 007 talked about that. I'm
13 trying to show you now that this witness doesn't even know what this ID
14 card looked like.
15 Q. Mr. Alic, since you said, about the other two men, that they had
16 ID cards from the Serbian Volunteer Guard, an organisation run by Arkan,
17 you mentioned that Ulemek had an ID card from the French Foreign Legion
18 sewn into somewhere; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So since you were able to find this ID card, which was so well
21 hidden from the French Foreign Legion, did it not occur to you that this
22 man was sent there on some secret task by the French Foreign Legion?
23 A. No, because he had other ID cards, including that of
24 Arkan's Tigers and the JNA, and out of those three ID cards I could think
25 that anyone might have sent him.
1 Q. Well, if he was such a collector, don't you find it strange that
2 he didn't have one from the Serbian Chetnik Movement?
3 A. Well, it didn't surprise me, but, at any rate, he didn't have
5 Q. So let us now make this clear. If the volunteers from the
6 Serbian Radical Party had arrived by bus the day earlier and if Arkan's
7 men also came by bus a day or two earlier, how come that now we have four
8 men here, two from Arkan's men and two Radicals, in a single car and they
9 get lost? What do you think about that?
10 A. Well, I don't know about that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. The conversation was so fast
13 that when we want to raise an objection, it's too late.
14 The witness said, if I remember well, that he didn't know whether
15 the volunteers came by bus or not. In the question, there's an
16 assumption. We're asking the -- the witness is asked to speculate. Of
17 course, my objection has lost its meaning, since we had an answer since
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have already heard
20 a good number of volunteers who came here, and we've understood that they
21 arrived by bus, they were transported by bus. So if these individuals
22 are volunteers, why is it that they did not come as a unit, but they came
23 as a force, I mean, in a private car, in a passenger car? It's quite
24 interesting. Can you tell us whether you have any idea why this
25 happened? You may not, especially since when you interviewed these four
1 individuals, you were supposed to know that there are Serbian volunteers
2 that may be coming from Serbia, and you may be aware, notably as a
3 policeman, that these volunteers come in convoys and not individually.
4 So why did you not ask the foursome about this, you know, to ask them who
5 they were, exactly, and what they were doing, especially if one has a
6 card from the French Foreign Legion? You might really wonder why he's
7 there and ask him.
8 As far as I'm concerned, your answers are not quite satisfactory
9 regarding a number of questions.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained this in my statement,
11 and I maintain what I said. Mr. Ulemek had three ID cards; the regular
12 JNA ID card, an ID card issued by the French Foreign Legion, and an ID
13 card --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last ID card.
15 A. When I saw the military ID card, I thought he was really a member
16 of the military police, and I wanted to call the army and hand him over
17 to them. But I talked to them on several occasions throughout the day,
18 and I kept gleaning new bits of information. I don't know how they were
19 coming in, but these four came in, in a passenger vehicle, and that
20 passenger vehicle had been seized.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is Mr. Alic, you mentioned several times, when those four men
23 were arrested, that there was a lot of telephone calls asking for their
24 release; that people intervened from high up, making those phone calls.
25 Can you recall who made those phone calls and who asked for their
1 release? Was it somebody from Belgrade?
2 A. Well, I can't answer that, because my colleague took all those
4 Q. Do you know that your colleague, Fadil Mujic, who actually had
5 those calls, stated at the trial in Belgrade - I have the transcript of
6 his evidence in its entirety, and so does the Prosecution - that Colonel
7 Boskovic, the head of the Security Service in the JNA at the time,
8 called, and he was promoted to lieutenant general quite soon afterwards?
9 A. I didn't that.
10 Q. Fadil Mujic didn't tell you that?
11 A. Well, no.
12 Q. The Prosecution has Fadil Mujic's statement and can make use of
14 When you left Zvornik, you described the circumstances, in part.
15 Apart from this function in the Sapna police station, did you hold any
16 other functions, such as, for instance, any political functions?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you a member of the War Presidency in the Zvornik
19 Municipality set up in Tuzla?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Well, it's a political function, is it not?
22 A. Yes, but that was ex officio because of my job.
23 Q. Please, a member of a War Presidency in a municipality is a
24 political function, is it not?
25 A. The chief of the Public Security Station, ex officio, is a member
1 of this Presidency.
2 Q. Under which law?
3 A. Well, under the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it was at the time.
4 Q. Is it so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The chief of the police from Sapna is the member -- is a member
7 of the War Presidency of the Municipality of Zvornik?
8 A. Well, that's because the police station was relocated to the free
9 territory in the Zvornik Municipality, and the Zvornik Municipality
10 itself had its War Presidency in the free territory.
11 Q. So you were the chief of the police for the entire Municipality
12 of Zvornik, not only for Sapna?
13 A. I'm saying that the chief of the police of the free part of the
14 Zvornik Municipality territory.
15 Q. The free territory, that means the territory that you held in
16 your hands, not free for Serbs?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So you were the chief of the police for the part of Zvornik
19 Municipality under the Muslim control, and you were responsible for
20 everything that was going on in that part; is that correct?
21 A. Well, no.
22 Q. So who, apart from you, was also responsible, as the police
24 A. I was the police chief, and the civilian situations were within
25 my purview. On the other hand, there was also the military, and since
1 everybody there was in the military, I had very little work to do.
2 Q. Since you failed to mention this political function that you
3 held, I have an excerpt from Mirzad Handzic's [phoen] book, entitled
4 "Zvornik from the elections to the Dayton," where your role is confirmed.
5 But since you now confirm that you held this role, there's no need for me
6 to exhibit that. Is it so?
7 A. Well, I didn't read this book and I have no reason to read it.
8 Q. Well, it is my role to read books. A police officer is not
9 expected to read books. He's supposed to wield his truncheon, is he not?
10 A. Well, you have time enough on your hands to read books.
11 Q. The four men who were arrested, were they beaten in the course of
12 their arrest?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, avoid these
14 comments. It's a waste of time. The only question is whether he had a
15 political office or not. You're saying, "No, you have the opposite
16 proof" because it seems that it's some kind of book called : "After
17 Dayton ... " I don't know exactly what it's called because it's was not
18 recorded on the transcript, author Mizrad Hamdzic seemed to mention the
19 role played by this witness. This is the interesting part, and only
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness recalled later
22 that he did hold this political function, so I wouldn't dwell on that.
23 The point is that this was a major political function that covered the
24 whole territory of the Zemun Municipality that was under the Muslim
25 control after the 1992 conflict.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Zemun is far away.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Yes, Zvornik, not Zemun. Zvornik is
3 close. So I wouldn't really dwell on that and waste any time, it's just
4 a detail, not particularly important, but perhaps of interest.
5 Q. The four men, were they beaten when they were arrested, Mr. Alic?
6 A. As far as I know, they were not mistreated or beaten at the
7 Public Security Station, but for sure they were at the roadblock.
8 Q. They were beaten there?
9 A. I suppose so, because that's what they told me.
10 Q. Where were they taken from, from the roadblock, first?
11 A. At the Public Security Station.
12 Q. Not to the firefighters' place and then to the Public Security
14 A. As far as I know, that was not the case.
15 Q. Fine, we'll deal with that later. Do you know that
16 Dusan Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, that he showed up at the places where the
17 Zvornik Muslim were detained, when he killed people and where he tortured
18 people, cut off their ears, when he had his way with them in a really
19 atrocious manner, that he was looking for men called "Boban" and "Zuna,"
20 some people by that name?
21 A. I was told that but I was not able to identify who Boban and
22 Zuna, were.
23 Q. When he was beaten in the course of his arrest, did you learn
24 that Boban and Zuna had beat him up the most brutally, and he learned
25 their names?
1 A. That's what he told me during the interview at the police
3 Q. So he told you that immediately. Do you know in 1993, he was put
4 on trial together with his brother, Vojin Vuckovic, at the district court
5 in Sabac?
6 A. I heard that.
7 Q. And do you know that there is a final judgement sentencing
8 Dusan Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, to 20 years in prison for the murder of
9 seven Muslims, because it was not known at that time about the others; do
10 you know that?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. And do you know that his brother, Vojin Vuckovic, a.k.a., Zuco,
13 was charged only with false representation and illegal carrying of
14 weapons, and that he was convicted only for the latter; do you know that?
15 A. I don't know that.
16 Q. So no criminal offence could be proven during that trial against
17 him. Do you know that Dusko Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, was subjected to
18 psychiatric observation on several occasions following his arrest and
19 during the trial in Sabac?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. I have a series of documents here confirming that various
22 psychiatrists determined that he was a psychopath. Do you have any
23 reasons to doubt that?
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I raise an objection. The witness
25 is not a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and cannot have an informed view
1 on this.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the witness has
3 interviewed Dusan in the premises of the civilian police of Zvornik.
4 Maybe he noted that he was a psychopath or not. You don't really need to
5 be an expert in psychiatry to know whether a person has psychiatric
6 disorders. It could be interesting, but I will ask the witness myself
7 this question.
8 Witness, according to the documents held by Mr. Seselj, it seems
9 that expert say Dusan Vuckovic was a psychopath. When you saw him, what
10 was he like? Did you think that he had a mental disorder? Did he look
11 like that? What did you think of him?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't able to notice that he
13 suffered from a mental disorder or anything like that.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is it obvious to you, Mr. Alic, that after all the beatings that
16 he received and in the beatings Zuna and Boban were prominent, that this
17 psychopathy of his went to such brutal limits as a result of that? Now,
18 you're a policeman and you know from your own practice when somebody is
19 subjected to something like that, something clicks in his brain and then
20 he's ready to do something which he would never have thought of in normal
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
23 witness said that he noticed no mental disorder, and there was a
24 follow-up question to this. I don't wish to repeat what was said.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Dutertre is quite
1 right on this point. When Dusan, Ulemek and the other two people were
2 with you, did you beat them up, all four of them?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They weren't beaten during the
5 period which they spent at the police station?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the police premises, the
7 practice is never to resort to physical force, and that's prescribed by
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness and I
10 agree on one point, that the beating took place before they entered the
11 police station, so there's no dispute about that. They had been beaten,
12 and the witness confirmed that Repic had mentioned Zuno and Boban as the
13 people who had beaten him up. So that's not being disputed. And the
14 witness also said that he doesn't know who Boban and Zuno were, and these
15 were two men who were quite obviously were among the Muslims who had
16 beaten up the other four men. And what happened there was -- or, rather,
17 I tried to elicit an answer from the witness, as a policeman with many
18 years of experience, whether he was able to conclude that what happened
19 was that somebody who looked quite normal and appeared to be normal to
20 him, about these terrible beatings that he was subjected to, became a
21 bloodthirsty criminal, whether he, as a policeman, could arrive at a
22 conclusion like that. So if that isn't a proper question, I'll give up
23 on it and move on. I'm not insisting upon it, but it's quite obvious to
24 me, and that's why I wanted to ask the witness, who is a policeman. He's
25 a witness of justice here, so he could state his views in the matter on
1 that basis.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you answer the question or
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't answer that question, I
5 just can't. I'm not a professional in the area. Everything would be
6 pure speculation on my part.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, do you know that when the new indictment was raised against
9 Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, together with Brano Grujic,
10 Branko Pavlovic, and then those people who had nicknames Zoks,
11 Major Toro, Lopov, and Bosanac; and I can't remember all their names, and
12 I seem to remember the nicknames better, but, anyway, he was indicted
13 together with them. I assume you know about that?
14 A. I really don't know things like that. I don't want to talk about
15 them, because I really don't remember.
16 Q. Just remember. You were questioned in Tuzla or Sarajevo with
17 respect to the Belgrade trial?
18 A. In Sarajevo, but they didn't mention the people you've just
20 Q. Well, their names were mentioned there. I'm going to tell you
21 their real names now. I thought that you might have remembered the
22 nicknames. I have the indictment raised against them here, so I'll read
23 them out. Branko Grujic and Popovic, Branko. You know them, don't you?
24 Then there was Dusko Vuckovic, that's this man Repic; Dragan Slavkovic,
25 his nickname was Major Toro, and you testified in the Dragan Slavkovic
1 trial about that, isn't that right?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Well, you did testify in Belgrade about these people. Don't you
4 know who you testified about?
5 A. I testified in the Brano Grujic trial and the Ulemek trial. Now,
6 the people you just mentioned are people I don't know.
7 Q. You did not testify in the Ulemek trial. Mr. Alic, collect your
8 thoughts for a moment. And in what circumstances did you testify in the
9 Ulemek trial?
10 A. The group of those four men.
11 Q. Ulemek was never tried for Zvornik. I can guarantee you that.
12 A. I say that in my statement. Now, whether he was taken to trial
13 or not, I'm not -- I don't know.
14 Q. Mr. Alic, I have to remind you of the trial you testified in
15 Belgrade. It was the Branko Grujic, Branko Popovic, aka, Marco Pavlovic,
16 Dusko Vukovic, nicknamed Repic; Dragan Slavkovic, known as Toro or Major
17 Toro; Ivan Korac, whose nicknamed Zoks; Sinica Filipovic [phoen],
18 nicknamed Lopov; and Dragutin Dragicevic, nicknamed Bosanac. Those were
19 the trials in which you testified, and the Prosecutor can confirm that if
20 you don't remember, if you don't know.
21 A. That is true, but I confirmed the case of the people that I knew
23 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Alic. Right now, we've established that you
24 were previously questioned in Sarajevo by the investigating judge in
25 Sarajevo pursuant to instructions from Belgrade; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you were questioned during the investigation,
3 Dusko Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, was still alive, and later on he
4 committed suicide, he hanged himself in prison. So when you came to
5 testify in Belgrade, you no longer saw him; isn't that right?
6 A. I heard that he had hanged himself in the central prison.
7 Q. And you almost recognised somebody else as being Repic; wasn't
8 that how it was?
9 A. No, it wasn't.
10 Q. All right, never mind. It's not an essential point. But,
11 anyway, I have here the indictment against these people and,
12 Mr. President, you asked for that and the Prosecution disclosed it to me.
13 I don't know whether they provided it to you. 04615792 is the page I
14 would like to have called up now. 04 -- I'll repeat the page number.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have asked to have the
16 indictment. From what I understood, the indictment is being translated,
17 but we still don't have it and we're still waiting for it.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, from that lengthy
19 indictment, I'd just like to read out a brief excerpt from page 18, and
20 you can see that on the overhead projector, perhaps:
21 "If the Secretariat provides us with 04615792," that's the page
22 number. You don't have it on e-court.
23 All right, take my copy, and we can just take a look at that part
24 of the indictment, and that's the number that the Prosecution gave me.
25 I thought the OTP was well equipped for e-court. I thought I had
1 a problem, but, you see, it's always their problem. When it comes to the
2 use of e-court, they seem to have a problem.
3 So let's just have a look at this one paragraph now which is
4 marked, highlighted.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are talking about the
6 indictment in the trial in Belgrade; that's right?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the current trial of
8 the group accused for crimes in Zvornik, and I've already mentioned their
9 names. I don't want to repeat them. They are names that appear in
10 different witness testimony of the victims, and their nicknames. I'm
11 sure you'll remember their nicknames. But I'm not interested in the
12 trial, per se, as such, with respect to this document, but what the
13 Prosecutor says in the indictment, and this is what he says in this
15 "The accused, Dusko Vuckovic, Dragan Slavkovic, Ivan Korac,
16 Sinisa Filipovic, and Dragutin Dragicevic were volunteers who were
17 included into a unit which was commanded by Witness Vojin Vuckovic,
18 nicknamed Zuco, which unit was called Igor Markovic and the Yellow Wasps
19 or "Zute Ose." According to written documentation which agrees on all
20 points and is in conformity with the statement by Vojan Vuckovic, the
21 witness interviewed, it emerges indubitably that this unit was within the
22 composition of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Municipality of
23 Zvornik and that it did not represent a paramilitary formation outside
24 the Command of the Staff of the Territorial Defence."
25 Do you see this definition of the unit there, Mr. Alic?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Do you think that this unit, on the basis of what we can read
3 here, has anything to do with the Serbian Radical Party?
4 A. As far as I know, the Vuckovic brothers were from surrounding
5 parts of Obrenovic, at Umka, and they could not have been in the
6 Territorial Defence of Zvornik Municipality. That's a different state
8 Q. Now, that other state was recognised by the Western powers, but
9 the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina never recognised it or didn't
10 recognise it at the time; is that true? It is -- I'm not challenging
11 that they went from Obrenovic to Zvornik, but this is what the Belgrade
12 prosecutor says at the Belgrade trial; they became part of the
13 Territorial Defence and established the Igor Markovic or "Zute Ose" unit
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection. Since an indictment
18 relies on a number of documents that are in the hands of the prosecutor
19 in Belgrade and it's on the basis of these documents that the prosecutor
20 says this, I don't see how the witness can give an opinion, since he
21 doesn't have the documents.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has to do with relevance
23 and probative value. As far as relevance is concerned, there is no
24 problem whatsoever. The individuals whose names are mentioned in a
25 number of testimonies, this has been confirmed by the witness on trial in
1 Belgrade, so it is relevant since it relates to facts that were -- or
2 things that were committed in Zvornik.
3 As far as probative value is concerned, once the Bench has all
4 the documents at hand, the Trial Chamber will assess the probative value
5 of this. We have a document which stems from a legal entity, and all the
6 people that were members of the Territorial Defence were connected to a
7 paramilitary formation called the Yellow Wasps. This is what we can say
8 so far.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj, and then we will have a break.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another document that I'd
11 like to show here. Now, whether I'll have time, I don't know. It's one
12 I received from the Prosecution. The number of it is 00741342.
13 Can you bring it up on e-court? The document has three pages.
14 I'd have to go through it, Judges, so do you want to take the break now
15 or would it be better to do so straight away? It's an important
16 document, and I'd like to go through it in its entirety, so when?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best would be to deal with
18 this after the break, and the Registry, in the meantime, can call it up
19 on the screen.
20 It's two minutes past 12, and we shall resume in 20 minutes'
21 time, and we will have an hour left after that, since we finish at
22 quarter past 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Registrar has
1 told me that you have one hour and 22 minutes left, which means that we
2 will not finish today, unfortunately. Witness, you will have to come
3 back tomorrow morning, unless Mr. Seselj finishes before his time. I
4 don't know.
5 Mr. Seselj, you have one hour and 22 minutes left. The Registrar
6 has told me that the document you wish to display cannot be displayed,
7 which explains why it's not on the screen.
8 Mr. Prosecutor.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As far as this concerned is
10 document, I must tell you that the Prosecution has received no
11 information prior to Mr. Seselj's cross-examination, and I would like to
12 object to this practice.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, normally speaking,
14 as part of the cross-examination, the list of documents to be shown
15 should be disclosed before the cross-examination. This should not happen
16 halfway. I know you come up against a whole series of technical
17 problems. Let us know about these problems and then we'll have a better
18 understanding of this and why it is that you cannot meet this
19 expectation, i.e., to provide the documents before the commencement of
20 the cross-examination.
21 I'll give you the floor back now.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think you and your
23 colleagues are conscious of the fact that just prior to the testimony of
24 a Prosecution witness, I prepare myself for the cross-examination.
25 That's all the possibility I have. I have been inundated by the
1 Prosecution with vast quantities of documents, and I'm not complaining,
2 but to look through them takes time. And I need to make a selection, of
3 course, of those I can use.
4 Now, the Prosecution sent me, as I said, heaps of material, heaps
5 of documents, with no order in them, documents obtaining to all sorts of
6 matters, so every time I have to leaf through many thousands of pages to
7 find something that I can use with each individual witness.
8 And you might have noticed that I seem a bit tired today because
9 I just had two nights' sleep last night. I'm not complaining, but I
10 don't expect the impossible of me. I don't have 15 associates like the
11 Prosecution to do my work for me. If I had a secretary in the cell, then
12 I could say such-and-such. Everything would be different then, but I
13 haven't got that opportunity.
14 Now, the warden won't let me employ a secretary, and my wife
15 looked at me askance, too, when I happened to mention the possibility of
16 this to her. So what can I do? I do the best that I can.
17 Now, the fact that the Prosecutor is complaining, what can I do,
18 how can I help him? He should have had all this in e-court. When I say
19 the number, he should just press the button and it should pop up before
20 him. So why are they not prepared for that.
21 They announced the advent of e-court many years ago, so I can't
22 help them in that regard, I'm afraid.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document
25 put to the witness so we can go through the document together. It's an
1 interesting one because it dates back to 1992.
2 Ah, you don't even have it. You have to use my copy. Oh dear,
3 oh dear. Very well.
4 It's a document of the Serbian Security Service or rather the
5 Republika Srpska, or, rather, the Security Services of Republika Srpska,
6 signed by Dragoljub Andan, dating back to 1992. We'll see the date and
7 the heading on page 1. It's the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
8 and the Ministry of Interior, Centre of Security Services, Bijeljina,
9 that's what it says at the top, and the date is the 20th of July, 1992.
10 The title of the document is: "Information about the security situation
11 in the territory of the Serb Municipality of Zvornik." And now I'd like
12 to go through the document slowly and to hear the witness's views on each
13 of the paragraphs.
14 In paragraph 1, the situation on the fronts is explained, where
15 the frontline towards Kalesija-Sapna is, and so on, and it says that
16 there are actions on the part of a certain number of paramilitary
17 formations which have still not been placed under the united command of
18 the Army of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. Have you seen that, Mr. Alic? It's the second part of the first
20 paragraph. So that is the assessment made by the Serbian Security
21 Service. And in the next paragraph, they go on to name the paramilitary
22 units and say, according to available information that the service has,
23 in the territory of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, three
24 paramilitary units work in organised fashion; the unit under the command
25 of a certain person called Zuca, the unit under the command of a certain
1 man called Pivarski, and the unit under the command of a certain person
2 called Niski.
3 Have you heard of those three paramilitary units, as they call
4 them, Mr. Alic? Did those names crop up in the witness and victims'
5 testimony when they came from Zvornik to the territory under your
7 A. Yes, they did appear.
8 Q. Now let's look at the next paragraph, and this is what it says:
9 "The most numerous and best-armed and organised is the unit under
10 the command of the said person called Zuca. Allegedly, this is an
11 individual who used to belong to the Serbian Radical Party or who
12 belonged to the Serbian Radical Party, and because of inter-party
13 conflicts, was excluded from the membership of the said party."
14 Now, why is this important? This is a document which dates back
15 to 1992, July 1992, in fact, where this observation is made, and we've
16 had information so far that in 1991, he was excluded or, as he said, he's
17 left the Serbian Radical Party, but the facts coincide. His unit numbers
18 about 100 men who are armed with infantry weapons and dispose of a
19 certain number of heavy machine-guns and three anti-aircraft guns built
20 into the trucks. The unit is located at Caparde, where it has been
21 accommodated in makeshift buildings. Of the total number of men, 80 of
22 them come from the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, whereas the rest are
23 from the territory of the Republic of Serbia, mostly persons prone to
24 criminal actions."
25 So here it says 80 from Zvornik and just 20 from Serbia.
1 Let's continue. I don't know why my screen is being switched off
2 and I lose the document. I have it now. I seemed to have pressed the
3 wrong button.
4 Anyway, it says:
5 "In addition to Zuca, in the said unit, Rade Tanackovic is
7 Turn over to the next page, please, the top of it. He's from
9 " ... and Zuca's brother, nicknamed Repic, and" and then there's
10 a mistake there, it says Repic, and then in brackets "This is a
11 pathological case."
12 So in 1992, they have described Repic as being a pathological
13 case. The other two units have been accommodated in the outside area of
14 Zvornik Municipality and come into town from time to time with infantry
15 weapons, and they number about 20 people. Apart from criminal acts, such
16 as the theft of cars, setting up their own check-points, stealing
17 technical goods and furniture from houses left void, which they sell on
18 the territory of Serbia.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we have an
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to know
22 where the question lies. If the question is right at the end, it can
23 only be a compound question. I would like to know when the question
24 comes, because we are reading out an entire document.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I think you're
1 laying -- please lay the foundations to your questions. I assume there's
2 going to be a question.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to have a
4 foundation for each and every question. Without those papers, I cannot
5 do anything. I don't know what was happening. I used these as sort of
6 landmarks. And the Prosecutor is really impatient. He interrupted me at
7 the very moment when I was about to ask my question, and we waste time.
8 Q. Mr. Alic, do you know these things that are listed here in this
9 document; that the Serbian Security Service, at the Bijeljina centre, had
10 problems with three paramilitary units that are described in this manner?
11 A. I don't know about that. This is the first time that I see this
12 document, and this is the first time I hear about this.
13 Q. And have you heard that the members of the Yellow Wasps were
14 arrested in the course of July in Zvornik and were taken to prison in
16 A. I don't know that.
17 Q. Fair enough. Let us move on.
18 Those units, in particular the one that is commanded by Zuca,
19 intensified its activities aimed at the legal authorities in the Serbian
20 municipality of Zvornik. And I don't want to read the whole paragraph,
21 prompting the Prosecutor to jump to his feet. Let me now ask a question.
22 Do you know that they mistreated Serb civilian authorities in
23 Zvornik after the majority of Muslims had already moved out of Zvornik?
24 A. I do know that.
25 Q. Do you know that this was also said at the Belgrade trial, that
1 they would walk into the sessions of the Zvornik Presidency with
3 A. I don't know details, but I do know that the official authorities
4 there have problems with them.
5 Q. Do you know that at one point, they caught Branko Grujic, the
6 first accused in the Belgrade trial, tied him up, and paraded him around?
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. Well, the Muslim side would have laughed heartily had you heard
9 that, wouldn't you? But at any rate, the document goes on to say the
10 service has information about Zuca's intentions to use armed force and
11 violence to influence the authorities, to effect certain changes in the
12 personnel policies, so that Zuca's people would be appointed to
13 appropriate functions and posts in the municipality. One of the aspects
14 of the pressure is taking control over the check-points in the town, and
15 earlier cases of arrest of a certain number of members of the government
16 in May of this year. In addition to the above, members of this formation
17 ensure that they could legalize their criminal activities."
18 Do you know that?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. And do you know that a huge mass of Serb refugees from Tuzla
21 simply overflowed Zvornik after the armed conflict, or the attack, as you
22 term it, after the Muslims left or withdrew from Zvornik? Do you know
23 that there was a huge influx of Serb refugees from Tuzla to this area?
24 A. Yes, I do know that.
25 Q. And do you know that they moved into Muslim houses?
1 A. I do know that.
2 Q. And do you know, on the other hand, that various gangs in Zvornik
3 were trying to loot those very houses before the arrival of the refugees
4 and before the refugees move in?
5 A. That's possible.
6 Q. Do you know that they drove a lot of the white goods,
7 refrigerators, ovens, even construction material, across the Drina River?
8 A. Yes, I do know that.
9 Q. When the JNA -- do you know when the JNA column was attacked in
10 Tuzla; do you recall?
11 A. The 15th of May, 1992.
12 Q. About 200 JNA soldiers were killed on that occasion?
13 A. I don't know the exact figure because I was not in that area.
14 Q. And this murder of over 200 soldiers, JNA soldiers in Tuzla, and
15 the huge influx of Serb refugees from Tuzla, could it have intensified
16 the anti-Muslim animosity amongst Serbs in Zvornik?
17 A. Yes, it could have done so.
18 Q. You know that hatred feeds on itself?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Something happens on the Serb side, the Muslims' hatred
21 increases, and then something happens on the Muslim side and then the
22 Serbs' hatred increases, and it's a vicious circle with no end?
23 A. Yes, that's how it is.
24 Q. Okay, let us move on.
25 Through its operational work, the service has obtained unverified
1 information, as it is indicated here, that Zuco has contacted members of
2 the Green Berets from Kalesija in order to hand over -- surrender the
3 frontline at Caparde, thereby cutting off the only communication route
4 with Romanija and to create an unimpeded -- to create conditions for the
5 Serbian municipality of Zvornik to be taken over?
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr. Seselj is
8 quoting something or whether these are his own words, when he talks about
9 these services and what relates to operations.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am moving through the
11 document. I indicated that, and the witness understands that's what I'm
13 Q. Is that right, Mr. Alic? Well, you understand everything and the
14 Prosecutor doesn't understand a thing.
15 Well, the last sentence in this paragraph, and then I'm going to
16 ask you the question. For this concession, foreign currency was offered
17 to the amount of 350.000 German marks on the side -- on the part of the
18 Green Berets, while Zuca requested 500.000 German marks. Are you aware
19 of this kind of talks between the Green Berets and Zuca?
20 A. No, this is the first I've heard of it.
21 Q. Well, Zuco will be thankful to you denying this, denying that you
22 know of this. I don't know whether this actually happened or not, and
23 the service itself indicates that this is unverified information, but I
24 wanted to hear your opinion because it is quite important. Then I move
1 For an overall insight into this paramilitary unit and its
2 possible influence on the very unfavorable development of the security
3 situation in this area, it is important to bear in mind the connection
4 between Zuco and Vidovic, Milje [phoen], killed on the 17th of July,
5 1992, in Mali Zvornik in unclear circumstances."
6 Do you know about this man, Milje Vidovic?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. And then it goes on to say in the text:
9 " ... and we had operational intelligence that he was supposed
10 to get in touch with the former JNA officer, Sasha Sedinovc [phoen], who
11 in his statement," turn over to the next page: "Through the organs of
12 the Serb army admitted that earlier this year he had been hired by the
13 Dutch police and that it was his task to get in touch with this man,
14 Vidovic, who allegedly has some codes and some instructions for further
15 work. It is also interesting to note that when Vidovic was killed, a
16 Dictaphone was found -- a tape-recorder was found in his apartment with a
17 tape containing the recording from the meeting of the Staff of the
18 Territorial Defence of the Serbian Army, BiH, in Zvornik."
19 Do you know that?
20 A. I don't.
21 Q. And do you know that various foreign intelligence services were
22 operating in that area? Did you have them on your side of the frontline?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is and if you had them, then there had to be some operating on
25 the Serb side?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And would it be possible, if it were in their interests, for them
3 to stoke the flames between Serbs and Muslims if it were in their
4 interests to have the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina to escalate?
5 A. I don't know what their intentions were.
6 Q. Let us see what the conclusions were in this document. It
7 transpires from everything that was transpired above that Zuco is
8 carrying out his criminal activities for larger sums of money, with the
9 assistance of some members of the government of the Serbian municipality
10 of Zvornik.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. The
12 witness is asked to speculate. He answered that he didn't know the
13 intent, but the question was not appropriate.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj is asking
15 you whether you knew whether the security services, be it of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina or of Serbia, had ties with foreign services, and you
17 said, "Yes." So I thought I understood that your answer dealt with the
18 two sides. So when you answered, "Yes," to this question, is this
19 speculation or do you have specific information on this?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, Mr. President, specify, I
21 did not say that those foreign intelligence services were cooperating
22 either with the Muslim or the Serb intelligence services. I said they
23 were just operating in the area. I didn't say that they were cooperating
24 with anyone. And the witness confirmed that the operation of those
25 services was felt on the Muslim side. We didn't go into detail because I
1 didn't -- I don't know the details myself. I don't want to confuse the
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Without talking
4 about cooperation, to your knowledge, did foreign intelligence services
5 operate in this area?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the answer is "yes." They
7 were operating in many ways through humanitarian organisations, various
8 representative offices, but I do think they were operating there.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me finish this document, with
11 your permission, Mr. President.
12 Q. Everything that is presented above indicates that Zuco performs
13 his criminal activities exclusively for large sums of money, with the
14 assistance of some members of the government of the Serbian municipality
15 of Zvornik," and now this is my comment: So he has assistance from these
16 people, through whom he's trying to conceal his activities:
17 "In this relation, it is to be expected that he might, in light
18 of his pretensions and aspirations, to carry out armed pressure on the
19 government in order to achieve a full takeover. It is our assessment
20 that the current activity of those paramilitary units might lead to huge
21 consequences for the security of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, and
22 in this -- for the purpose of preventing this and to making it
23 impossible, we propose that a special unit of the Republika Srpska -- of
24 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP be sent there in the area
25 of Zvornik."
1 So do you know whether, after this date, and I forgot the
2 date - it's on page 1 - that there was a large-scale intervention by the
3 special police of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it was
4 styled then, and that members of these paramilitary formations were
5 actually all arrested; you know that? You were there. You were in
6 range, in Sapna.
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. But did you not observe some large-scale movements of special
9 units at that time?
10 A. Well, I was not concerned with those activities.
11 Q. Well, if you don't know that, I can't now force you into making a
13 Now I am about to spring a surprise on you, on the Prosecution --
14 well, rather, it is not a surprise for the Prosecution and for the Trial
15 Chamber because they've already received it during the first break.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the surprise, there are
17 two things I'd like to know, in terms of this document which comes from
18 the Prosecution, because it's the Prosecution that disclosed it to the
19 Defence. There are two important items here.
20 First, I note here that in this document, can comes from the
21 Republika Srpska, Bijeljina, July 20, 1992, people from Zuce,
22 representing a group of 100 people, of which 80 come from Zvornik and 20
23 from Serbia. So there's a majority of locals. Since you interviewed
24 Zuco, who is Repic's brother, could you tell us whether he addressed this
25 with you, yes or no?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not about that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you missed a piece
3 of information. This unit, Ivo Markovic, the Yellow Wasps, was set up in
4 Zuce, became its commander on the 27th of April after Kuljagrad [phoen]
5 fell. This is when the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and the
6 special unit of Zene [phoen] from Pancevo and Arkan's units a withdrew
7 from Zvornik. That was when this unit was set up and that's when Zuco
8 was appointed commander. Up until that time, he did not have any command
9 responsibility there.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The witness has just given
12 evidence, and I object to this. However, in the very clever way
13 Mr. Seselj read verbatim, the so-called testimony of a person, without
14 calling this person, without respecting any of the rules, 92 ter, 92 bis,
15 or anything, and I object to this kind of a practice.
16 The OTP is not able to cross-examine this person and to assess
17 the relevance and the reliability of what is mentioned in this document.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your objection is now noted on
19 the transcript.
20 The second thing, sir: This Zuco, according to this document, it
21 seems that Zuco is undergoing criminal activities, motivated mainly by
22 greed and nothing else, nothing that would have to do with politics, and
23 the best proof that we have in this document is the paragraph where he in
24 contact with the Green Berets. So unless I'm wrong, the Green Berets
25 were an organisation that was internal to Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was a
1 group of people who wanted to fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina. Weren't
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is so.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Therefore, this
5 Zuco is in contact with the Green Berets, with the Muslim side, and it
6 seems that he had contacts for many reasons. There seems to be no
7 politics involved here.
8 What do you have to say to this?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first that I hear about
10 this possibility, and I can't really comment on it. There's no need for
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the first time that you
13 hear this? Very well.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to respond to
15 the objection made by the Prosecution.
16 The document that we went through with the witness is not a
17 statement. It is an official police document from the Centre of Security
18 Services in Bijeljina, signed by the chief of the Security Services
19 Centre, Dragan Andan. Dragan Andan is not a witness that I intend to
20 call. I might put him on the list if I need him. But this is an
21 official document disclosed to me by the Prosecution God knows
22 when - several years ago - but it bears the number that was assigned to
23 it by the Prosecution. It is their exhibit, as they call it. It's not
24 mine. I am using it in the cross-examination legitimately. How can I
25 use it, if not in the cross-examination? It's the only way in which
1 I can do it. I cannot just put it in the mail and send it to you. I
2 have to find a witness through which I can deal with it, because I myself
3 don't know whether all this is true. I just know that it is written in
4 this document, and I don't know if it's true or not.
5 The only thing I know, is that this sentence that in 1991, Zuco
6 was a member, and that sometime in September or October, he was no longer
7 a member, it was his version of events that he left, and our version of
8 events is that he was expelled. And I don't know the details, because he
9 was not a major figure in our ranks.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What you have just
11 said is now on the transcript. However, when I said that it was a
12 document from -- that came from the Prosecution, I think I said
14 One last item, Witness. At the very beginning of this text, in
15 the first paragraph -- this is a document that you do not know, but since
16 you were there, maybe you could shed some light on this.
17 This document seems to say that these paramilitary formations
18 are -- there are three of them, and that these three paramilitary
19 formations are not under the command of Republika Srpska. This is
20 written, black on white, here in this document from the very onset, and
21 this might have consequences for us, for the Bench.
22 You were involved. You were on the ground. You were there. You
23 had an official post in the War Presidency, and you had functions in the
24 different police stations. So according to you, these kind of
25 paramilitary formations, and here three are mentioned -- let's talk about
1 the Yellow Wasps, for example. According to you, were these people
2 alongside and autonomous or were they under command, the Command of the
3 Army of Republika Srpska? What is your opinion on this?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say with any
5 precision. All I can do is to speak about the period until the 8th of
6 April, 1992, and everything happened after the 8th of April, 1992, all
7 that, when we were expelled from Zvornik and when we were outside those
8 events. So what went on in the town of Zvornik, I really can't testify
9 about that because I don't know.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have the surprise now.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your
12 attention, Mr. President, and it's something the Prosecution knows about,
13 and it is this: That this unit was formed as the territorial Defence
14 unit of Zvornik on the 27th of April, and that's not in dispute. That
15 was found to be so during the indictment in Belgrade and so on. But it
16 was set up as a Territorial Defence unit, but it went off on its own
17 afterwards and there was no stronger force until the special police
18 forces arrived to overcome it as being a renegade.
19 Now, the surprise: I received a statement from Vojin Vuckovic
20 today, nicknamed Zuca. I have provided photocopies for the Trial Chamber
21 and for the Prosecutor.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. The Prosecutor.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, once again. The
24 accused is testifying on all this, once again, in a repetitive fashion.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we've taken due note of
1 this. But this Vojin, Mr. Seselj, please go ahead.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be placed on the overhead
3 projector so that Mr. Alic can follow. This is a statement that has been
4 authenticated or certified in the 4th District Court in Belgrade
5 yesterday. I was faxed it this morning. The date is the 20th of May up
6 there at the top, and he first of all provides all his personal data and
7 says that watching your testimony last week, he was astounded by the
8 lies. Those were his words. Don't consider yourselves -- don't think
9 this comes from me. I had some observations to make with respect to
10 false testimony, but you did tell some truth as well. Anyway, he says he
11 felt the need to present the facts about events that he took part in
12 personally --
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please. Can we
14 please look at what has been authenticated, certified, according to you?
15 Is it the signature, the statement? You know that I was having problems
16 with this, so please be very accurate, and the transcript needs to be
17 accurate. It seems that it's only the signature once again.
18 Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Madam Judge, on page 4 you
20 have the certification, and on page 3 you have the signature and the
21 stamp. Actually, they were two pieces of paper, because obviously on
22 page 4 is the certification. You have the photocopy of that here.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have a PhD in
24 Law. Could you tell me whether, in your legal system -- I'm not asking
25 you to testify, but to answer a legal question. You are both counsel and
1 accused here, since you are self-represented. If you had counsel, I
2 would ask the question to your counsel. You have no counsel, so I'll put
3 the question to you.
4 In your own legal system, somebody is making a statement either
5 in typewritten form or handwritten form, and signs, if this certificate
6 is false, is there -- is it an offence in your -- is it an offence
7 according to your legal system, that you could be charged -- that this
8 person could be charged with --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and criminal proceedings can
10 be taken against me if there's a false authentication, false
11 certification. And your service will be able to check this out in the
12 4th District Court in Belgrade during the afternoon. The Prosecutor
13 could have actually done that during the second break if he was provided
14 with this document in the first break. The OTP could have checked this
15 out and could have been sent the same document.
16 Now, as far as the certification is concerned, only the signature
17 is certified, not the truthfulness of what is stated. The clerk of the
18 court has authenticated the fact that it is Vojin Vuckovic who signed it,
19 but he's not authenticating the truth. Who knows where the truth lies?
20 But I am in search of the truth, and I'm more successful along that path
21 than the Prosecutor is, as you've been able to convince yourselves of.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you.
23 Mr. Prosecutor.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, just for clarification, does this
25 authentication require Mr. Vuckovic to be present in the court before the
1 authentication was given?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, each individual who
3 provides me with a statement agrees that he will be a Defence witness,
4 and in the last sentence on page 3, Vojin Vuckovic states as follows:
5 "I give this statement voluntarily and at my own request, and
6 agree that Professor, Dr. Vojislav Seselj can use it before The Hague
7 Tribunal. I should like to emphasize that I am ready to appear in
8 The Hague exclusively as a Defence witness called by
9 Professor Dr. Vojislav Seselj."
10 Whereas the Prosecutor was not going to call him as a Prosecution
11 witness, so I don't suppose you're going to seize him from me, are you?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're not
13 answering my fellow Judge's question. He asked you whether, in your
14 legal system, the person asking for authentication of a document and a
15 signature must be present when, in court, a stamp is set on the document,
16 that is recorded, the person -- must the person be present when this
17 person is asking for a stamp to be affixed on the document?
18 By definition, the agent who's going to stamp the document is
19 supposed to check that the person in front of him has exactly the same
20 signature as the one that is on the document. This is the question you
21 were asked.
22 Could you please answer?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, he must be present, absolutely
24 so. Otherwise, a clerk, certifying somebody's signature without his
25 presence and without the identification card of the person signing, would
1 be in prison. Not only does he certify the signature, but the person has
2 to sign in front of the court official. He can't bring in a signed copy,
3 but he has to sign in front of the court clerk, and there must be two or
4 three copies, which some are stored in the archives, and everybody can
5 check whether that is the case.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: The reason I'm asking, Mr. Seselj, is that in
7 both documents that you have put to us, the authentication has been
8 provided on a separate sheet of paper. It would have been natural to put
9 the authentication directly on the page where the signature occurred.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, look, this statement
11 covered two pages, quite obviously, and so what is authenticated is the
12 last page of the second -- the last page of the statement, the second
13 page. But when you send it by fax, as they are actually four pages on
14 two pieces of paper, then we receive four pages. I think that's clear,
15 but the Prosecution can check that out in Belgrade. They can send a fax
16 telling them what it was that Vojin Vuckovic signed and had authenticated
17 at the 4th District Court in Belgrade yesterday.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exactly what my
20 problem is, but the OTP cannot check as quickly as Mr. Seselj says we
21 could. And even so, this does not explain why this certification -- why
22 this stamp is not affixed right next to the signature of Vuckovic. The
23 third page is blank, for the most part, and the certification could very
24 well have been affixed there. So I still have questions pending
25 regarding this.
1 Secondly, I'd like to know under which Rule Mr. Seselj would like
2 to use this statement with, 92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater? Does he want to
3 read it extensively, like he did with the previous document? And I
4 believe that if, once again, we have a full reading of the entire
5 statement, I would like to add that the OTP cannot cross-examine this
6 witness, and therefore this witness should be called during the Defence
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is noted on
9 the transcript now.
10 We have ten minutes left. Please continue, Mr. Seselj, and
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not my
13 intention to offer you up any document under 92 bis, ter, quater, or
14 whatever, because I'm categorically opposed to the application of those
15 Rules in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence in this trial. I'm
16 absolutely against that, so if I'm against something, I can't allow
17 myself to do something that I do not allow the Prosecutor to do.
18 But since this is rather lengthy, I'd like to go back to a
19 document that was photocopied during the break. This will last ten
20 minutes, and then tomorrow we can go back, in the time we have, to
21 Vojin Vuckovic's statement, and given enough time for the Prosecutor to
22 check this out in Belgrade to see if it's authentic or not, if you agree,
23 because we're not going to get through everything and I don't want to
24 leave this document up in the air because I have quite a few questions
25 relating to it.
1 May I now have the document of the Centre for Research into the
2 Crimes Against the Serbian Population, sent by Vojan Ivanisevic [phoen],
3 and you can see that on page 1, and the attached documents sent to my
4 Defence team and it has to do with Asim Alic and the information that
5 they have on Asim Alic from Zvornik.
6 So we can move on to page 2, and in paragraph 1 there, it says
7 the following -- is it on the overhead projector? This is the
8 information that they have on you, Mr. Alic, so you can give me your
9 views and tell me whether it's correct or not:
10 "He came to Zvornik from Belgrade in 1991, and he was appointed
11 assistant commander of the police station straight away. According to
12 many indications, he had links in Belgrade with the representatives of
13 the Party of Democratic Action, who, just like Naser Oric, and not only
14 the two of them, persuaded him to go to Bosnia and place himself at the
15 disposal of the Muslim leadership. In Zvornik and the surrounding
16 villages, he trained members of the Green Berets or, rather, the
17 Patriotic League. In that work, he closely cooperated with Alan Karlovic
18 [phoen] from Bratunac," and in brackets it says "I'd like to remind you
19 that the Muslims through the SDA sent their young men for training in
20 Croatia in their masses. The instruction for sending candidates to the
21 training center, the MUP of the Republic of Croatia with the signature of
22 Hasan Cengic we have already sent to your team. He was known for his
23 fundamental -- extreme fundamentalism and hostility towards his
24 colleagues who were Serbs."
25 Is that right, Mr. Alic.
1 A. No.
2 Q. All right. Thanks for that brief answer, just a yes or no. We
3 can move on.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, what's the
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. To the extent
7 that excerpts are read verbatim, I believe that it would also be good to
8 read the cover page of this document, because it explains how Mr. Seselj
9 obtained this document, and it explains the relationship between the
10 author of this document and Mr. Seselj.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Seselj, for each and
12 everyone to understand this document and to know exactly what probative
13 value is to be granted to this document, I assume that this document was
14 sent to you at your request. Could you tell us exactly how you obtained
15 this document?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I obtained this document at the
17 request of my legal advisers. I can read it out. I hope that you won't
18 deduct it from my time, because this is something at the Prosecution
19 request. But it says in the attached letter:
20 "We enclose documents, the documents that you requested about the
21 Muslim policeman Asim Alic from Zvornik."
22 So we did request it:
23 "In our documents, the named person was recorded as one of the
24 people responsible for the persecution and suffering of Serbs in that
25 municipality. The documents of our institution is at your disposal for
1 any matters related to assisting the Defence of respected
2 Dr. Vojislav Seselj. We wish you every success in this responsible and
3 humane task."
4 That is what Milivoj Ivanisevic says, who is the head of the
5 centre for research into crimes committed against the Serb nation, and he
6 is somebody who has published seven or eight books on that same topic,
7 and some of those books are ones that I'm going to use here in court with
8 other witnesses. So obviously he is well disposed towards my Defence.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I must
10 absolutely repeat what I have said on many occasions about these
12 The issue of its probative value cannot be raised if the accused
13 is not asking for this document to be tendered into evidence. If the
14 accused eventually asks for the document to be tendered into evidence,
15 then we must now solve, either now or when he will ask for this document
16 to be tendered, we must solve the problem of the reliability of this
17 document. But I really do not see how any probative value can be granted
18 to this document if it's not tendered.
19 The only thing I will keep in mind are the answers given by the
20 witness in connection to questions that were put according to this
21 document, but this document has no value by itself.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In line of what has just
23 been said, I've already told you this, you are showing documents,
24 presenting documents, and not asking for these documents to be tendered.
25 And as my fellow Judge just said excellently, the Trial Chamber cannot
1 take them into account, for -- the Trial Chamber can only use the
2 witness's answer on the transcript to check the probative value of
3 whatever, which is why I have asked you on a number of occasions to make
4 sure that the important documents to your case are translated. And once
5 they are shown to the witness, they must be translated, and then you must
6 ask for these documents to be tendered. And once these documents are
7 admitted, then these documents may benefit from probative value.
8 I've said this over and over again. It seems that you have
9 another vision of things or another view on things. And my fellow Judges
10 want to safeguard the rights of the Defence, you know, and we've alerted
11 you on this issue on many occasions.
12 You might have very interesting documents, very important
13 documents, but if you do not tender them and they are not admitted, the
14 Chamber will not even look at them.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you remember full
16 well that I collected together 160 documents, along with the wholehearted
17 assistance of Slavko Aleksic [phoen], and Vasil Vasilevic [phoen],
18 Vranislav Graviljevic Brne [phoen] whose alleged, and I insist on this
19 word, alleged crimes are ascribed to me, and from which we can see they
20 weren't volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party at all at that time.
21 Now, I put those documents to Mr. Theunens, the military expert, when you
22 categorically refused to admit them into evidence.
23 Now, after that, I'm not tendering any more documents. I haven't
24 done so. And why? Because it is up to me to challenge the Prosecution
25 witness through my cross-examination, and in order to challenge him, I
1 use various documents. Now, you can treat his answers to my questions in
2 any way you want. I think that I have been successful in overthrowing
3 this witness's testimony, at least in the part which relates to the
4 indictment raised against me. Now, how you're going to treat this later
5 on is up to you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are going to
7 finish now. I understand your position. You've told us already.
8 Once, the Trial Chamber did not admit some documents. I was
9 against this, because I felt that these were reliable and that the
10 probative value could be assessed afterwards. This was ruled by the
11 Trial Chamber. But other documents can be shown, and so long as they
12 remain reliable and relevant, then there might be grounds for admitting
13 these. My colleagues and I might refuse to admit them, but it's not
14 because we took this stance once that this will be the case forever.
15 So if a document is reliable, if a document is relevant, then it
16 may have a probative value, and in that case there's no reason to dismiss
18 Let me finish. This last document, which seems to stem from an
19 association or organisation which should list those crimes committed
20 against the Serbs, I believe that this organisation is very similar to
21 the one headed by Mrs. Natasha Kandic. If this body has conducted work,
22 if this is a recognised body, then there is certainly a modicum of
23 reliability. There would be no reason, then, to dismiss this document.
24 This is what I wish to tell you. It's not because in a particular case
25 some documents were rejected, that this is applied at all times.
1 Let me also draw your attention to the fact that you are putting
2 arguments forward which may carry some weight in your Defence, but these
3 documents need to be part of the proceedings, unfortunately. Otherwise,
4 we will not be able to do anything about them.
5 It is now time to stop, because it is a quarter past 1.00.
6 I would ask the Registrar to tell me tomorrow morning how much
7 time you have left. Normally speaking, we should finish this witness's
9 Witness, I am sorry, but in light of all the procedural issues
10 that have been raised, you are still here today, and you will be asked to
11 come back tomorrow morning at 8.30. But then it will be finished,
12 because we have another witness after you. Is this a problem for you?
13 Can you come tomorrow morning?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. I will be here.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we shall meet again tomorrow
16 morning at 8.30. Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of
19 May, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.