080604ED

Page 7808

1 A. The office that I worked in was about 60 to 70 metres away from

2 Vaske's flat, and on one occasion, from his flat, most probably without

3 Vaske's knowledge, his father, Jovo, took out photographs from the battle

4 front in Knin, and he boasted about the successes his son had had. He

5 boasted to all the passersby, everybody that went past the shop I was

6 working in. I did not go up to him to look at the photographs, but I

7 assumed that those were the ones, Vaske's photographs from the front,

8 from the battlefield, which his father confirmed to me orally.

9 Q. Could you describe to us how the men -- how the group that Vaske

10 had with him looked?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How do we suddenly come to a group

12 of people, "the group"?

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness testified that he saw armed

14 formations in his municipality and that these armed formations were

15 led -- and the leader of these armed formations were -- was Vaske. Okay,

16 I can put the question without --

17 Q. If the witness can please describe how the armed formation that

18 Vaske was the leader of looked, if the accused is opposed to the use of

19 the word, "group."

20 A. My information to the effect that they were Vaske's soldiers is

21 derived from the following. All those people were from the Knin

22 battleground and they had come to a funeral of a friend of theirs who had

23 been killed at Knin. His name was Margetic. I don't know his first

24 name, but his surname was Margetic. They had come to attend the funeral

25 and after the funeral, they all stayed on. The population complained

Page 7809

1 about the presence of people in uniform in town, and then one day, over

2 the local radio station, the mayor of the town, Ratko Adzic, informed the

3 population that these people would be staying there for just a short

4 while, that they were there to attend the funeral, and because Vaske had

5 been wounded, and that they would leave and withdraw. But they never

6 withdrew.

7 They wore various uniforms, but all of them had a belt with

8 knives stuck to the belt.

9 Q. Were they wearing any kind of insignia or -- well, were they

10 wearing any kind of insignia?

11 A. Yes. They had insignia belonging to the Chetnik organisation;

12 that is to say, a skull, or a cockade, or the fur hat, or the sajkaca

13 type of cap, all denoting that they belonged to that organisation.

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I'd like if the Registrar would please call

15 up 65 ter number 7222, and if we can go to page 79 of that exhibit. And,

16 Your Honours, it is in your witness folder under tab 3.

17 Q. 1055 --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I don't seem to have

19 that tab. All I have is this [indicates]. I was given a binder to go

20 with the previous witness, whereas I don't seem to have tab 3. I just

21 have the exhibit numbers. So could the Prosecutor repeat the exhibit

22 title, because I have no tabs here at all. It hasn't been tabbed.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us in which tab we

24 can find this? There are two numbers which enable us to locate the

25 document, and can you give us a page number, please.

Page 7810

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let me just consult the copy that we have of what

2 Your Honours have been given.

3 Sorry, maybe there are two questions. The page number in this

4 document we need to look at is page 79. The title of the document is

5 "Insignia and Uniforms Worn by Serbian Armed Forces during the 1991 to

6 1995 Conflict." The --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. To help

8 Mr. Seselj, this must be the document which -- well, you can see in red,

9 on the left-hand side of the document, you can see the number "06323424."

10 THE REGISTRAR: I cannot open it.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm informed that there's a problem opening the

12 document, so maybe we can use the ELMO instead, if the usher will assist.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let the usher put it on

14 the ELMO.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN:

16 Q. VS-1055, while we're waiting for these technical things to be

17 sorted out: How many men were there with Vaske?

18 A. About 20.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: The document is now displayed in e-court,

20 I think, so should we rather proceed with that or the ELMO? I'm at the

21 disposal of the Registrar, really. We'll do the ELMO.

22 Q. 1055, I'm going to show you a series of pictures, and I'd like

23 you to tell me whether or not -- tell the Court whether or not any of the

24 things that have been shown to you were seen by you at the time with

25 Vaske's men.

Page 7811

1 So, first of all, this is from page -- for the record, from

2 page 79 of the exhibit. Did you see this insignia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where?

5 A. This insignia was on the vehicle used by Vasilije Vidovic, Vaske.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can open the next page of this exhibit,

7 page 80.

8 Q. Did you see this?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can move to the next page.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. You are

12 asking him whether he has seen this. You must ask him where and when.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN:

14 Q. 1055, where was this insignia seen?

15 A. This insignia I saw on the caps and fur hats, the subara of the

16 soldiers I mentioned.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can go to the subsequent page, 81.

18 Q. Here we have another insignia. Is this one that you recognised

19 from the time, and if so, when did you see it or where was it seen?

20 A. I didn't notice what was written, but I did notice the emblem,

21 not the words, on caps, on the uniforms, on the subaras or fur hats.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can move to page 82, please.

23 Q. Again, the same question: Is this an insignia that you saw at

24 the time, and if so, where?

25 A. All this insignia belonged to those soldiers. Some of them had

Page 7812

1 them as badges, others had them on their caps, yet others had them on

2 their shoulders and so on.

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we move to page 91, please, of this

4 exhibit.

5 Q. 1055, did you see something like this?

6 A. Yes, that's the fur hat, but I don't think I saw this insignia.

7 Actually, I didn't have the courage to come up close to have a look, but

8 I'm sure that that was it.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: And if we can go to page 92.

10 Q. Here we have another hat. Did you see something like this?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Was that worn by anyone, and if so, who?

13 A. This kind of cap was worn by Vasilije Vidovic, Vaske, in the

14 attack against my village, and I'll come to that later on.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: And page 93, please.

16 Q. Now, this picture, does that resemble people that you saw at the

17 time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you describe in what way?

20 A. You mean the people? Well, they were characteristically wearing

21 this kind of clothing, that is to say, uniform, caps, beards, the

22 insignia, as I described it.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. We're done with this exhibit. I'll

24 request -- or I'll ask that we have the document, or at least the pages

25 that have been shown to the witness be given an exhibit number.

Page 7813

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the pages shown to the witness will

3 be Exhibit P455.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, we will prepare an extract with the

5 relevant pages that we will upload into e-court so we have only the

6 relevant pages as an exhibit under the list number.

7 Q. 1055, did there come a time when roadblocks were set up in your

8 municipality?

9 A. Yes. When the Serbian authorities, with the proclamation of SAO

10 Romanija, took control of the police station, that's the time when the

11 roadblocks were set up.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. That was already at the beginning of May.

14 Q. Who was manning the roadblocks?

15 A. The roadblocks were manned for a time by the locals, the locals

16 of a particular place, because the Stavinja, Podlugovi, and Vratnica

17 roadblocks were set up, in those places, so that the police station of

18 Ilijas, which had been taken control of by the Serb -- the authorities of

19 the Serb municipality of Ilijas.

20 Q. Could you describe -- you mentioned that the Serbs took over the

21 police station in Ilijas. Could you describe what happened?

22 A. I was not near the police station, because I was going about my

23 regular duties on that day. I was in the shop. But I heard that the

24 police forces or, rather, the policemen came from other parts, like

25 Zenica, Visoko. They'd already crossed over into Ilijas territory, and

Page 7814

1 with the other Ilijas policemen they took control of the police station

2 and set up their own people there in leading positions, as commander or

3 the chief of the two services and all the other police services. The

4 Muslims left their work posts together with the Croatian policemen, and

5 an agreement of sorts was reached about the division -- or, rather, the

6 handing out of weapons, whether it belonged to the Territorial Defence or

7 the police force or whatever. But I do know that part of the weapons

8 reached my place, and in charge was the commander of the then-police

9 force, Omer Spahic.

10 Omer Spahic returned to his native village. He hailed from, as

11 we call it, the upper part, which is the Nisicka Plateau, and the person

12 who remained with the weapons was -- well, called him up on the phone

13 once - the telephone was still working. He said he didn't know what to

14 do with the weapons because there weren't enough men, there was no

15 reserve police force, so he didn't know what to do with the weapons. And

16 that conversation, telephone conversation, was intercepted in the post

17 office somewhere by the Serb policemen, and arrived immediately and took

18 away those same weapons. And this action was led by a commander called

19 Markovic.

20 Q. And what happened when Markovic came?

21 A. Markovic arrived with some of his men, and he demanded that the

22 weapons be handed over. Well, he had heard that the weapons were there.

23 And our people complied; they handed over the weapons just as they had

24 received them.

25 Q. VS-1055, you have described these developments. Did you at some

Page 7815

1 point in time see military equipment being deployed in Ilijas

2 municipality?

3 A. I did not see military equipment brought into Ilijas. It had

4 been brought sometime long ago. But we could see from our houses

5 military vehicles moving through the hilly areas, more precisely through

6 the local community of Ljubnici, which borders with Cekrcici towards

7 Visoko, with only the Bosna River between us.

8 Q. I'd like to go back to discuss one more issue with respect to

9 Vaske's group.

10 Were any kind of privileges given to men from his group?

11 A. The men from his group were put up partly in his apartment and

12 some in his house in Podlugovi for all their support, the wine and

13 spirits. They needed food and the rest. It was the teacher of

14 mathematics in Ilijas who was in charge of providing that. He ordered my

15 colleagues to provide all the financial help and assistance in kind

16 whenever their vehicles arrived to pick it up.

17 I saw Milan Bjelica drive a vehicle belonging to an Ilijas

18 company, drive to the Hyper Market led by Momir Andric. Then they went

19 on to banks and other businesses. Wherever the person in charge was a

20 Serb --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat these names,

22 please.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN:

24 Q. You're being asked to repeat the names that you just mentioned

25 for the benefit of the interpreters.

Page 7816

1 A. So for all their support, they needed the finance, the alcohol,

2 the food, it was Mirko Ostojic, the professor of mathematics in Ilijas

3 who was in charge. That was his job. The people who led various

4 businesses and shops and who provided the goods were Milan Bjelica, the

5 manager in the butcher's shop in Ilijas, and that butcher's shop belonged

6 to Ilpit in Ilijas. Market number 10 was managed by Momir Andric.

7 Ilpit's shop near the bank and the shop in Podlugovi, where the manager

8 was Mirko Andric.

9 Q. Did you continue to work during this period of time?

10 A. I continued to work until the 26th of May, when I was met at the

11 doorstep by Zdravko Djuric, who served me with a decision that I have to

12 turn over my shop to a Serb, Miroslav Delipara. This order was certified

13 by the stamp of the Serbian Democratic Party, and the signature was that

14 of Trifko Radic.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, I would like to call up 65 ter

16 number 4272. No, sorry, that's incorrect. It should be 65 ter

17 number 7229.

18 Q. 1055, we have a document now on the screen. Could you tell us

19 what that is?

20 A. I'm looking at that decision that I mentioned a moment ago.

21 Q. What was the ethnicity of Djuric?

22 A. Djuric was a Serb.

23 Q. Were you told why you had to hand over the shop?

24 A. I've got to mention that all the members of the Serbian [as

25 interpreted] and Croatian ethnic communities, in the health centre, in

Page 7817

1 the ironworks, or in the education system, were replaced because they

2 were Muslims and Croats.

3 Q. And they were --

4 A. And my turn came to --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It's not the Serbian

6 and Croatian ethnic communities, but Muslim and Croatian.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were replaced by ethnic Serbs.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN:

9 Q. What did you -- where did you stay after the 26th of May?

10 A. Beginning with the 26th of May, I was at my home in Ljesevo. In

11 that period, I tried to get my family out on the regional road,

12 Ilijas-Visoko. However, at the roadblock at the present border of the

13 Sarajevo-Zenica canton, near the tavern called Izlet there was a

14 roadblock manned by policemen from the police station of Ilijas. They

15 did not let me through. One of them was an active-duty policeman, and I

16 knew him privately. His name was Stanisic. And another young man was

17 with him. They turned me back. This young man, named Cedo, was wearing

18 a uniform of the reserve police.

19 I went back home with my family across the hill. I took my

20 family away to Vrbovik, and I remained to run some errands and finish

21 some business, because I had some small cattle and one cow.

22 Q. Could you explain to the Court, why did you try to send your

23 family away?

24 A. We still had electricity. The television and radio reported

25 daily on crimes being committed in the areas Bijeljina, Zvornik, Brcko.

Page 7818

1 It was clear that those things were coming closer to us, and of course I

2 was looking for safety.

3 Q. And could you tell us, what did you hear about what was happening

4 in those areas?

5 A. Well, every day news came of crimes committed. Television

6 broadcasts showed dead bodies in the streets of Zvornik. It was quite

7 clear that one should run away. The radio reported -- I remember one

8 specific thing, that Arkan's and Seselj's units entered Bijeljina and

9 freed the town from Muslims, as they put it.

10 Q. What station did you get this information from, if you remember?

11 A. The radio and television I had were tuned mostly to Radio and TV

12 Sarajevo, and the reporters reported from the various towns concerned.

13 Q. Could you describe what the situation was like in your village

14 between the day that you sent your family away and the 4th of June, 1992?

15 A. From the time my family left across the hill to Breza

16 municipality, things seemed to be pretty calm. You didn't see much

17 people around. Many had left already. You could say it was calm until

18 that fatal day, the 4th of June, around 1700 hours.

19 There was just one shot heard, which was a sign -- a signal to

20 start firing at our village from all sorts of weapons.

21 Q. Where were you when this shot was fired?

22 A. From my home some 300, 400 metres away. I had a brother who

23 lived there. I started walking there, and on the way a lady neighbour,

24 Salema Fazlic, asked me to have coffee with her. We talked behind a

25 house nearby, drinking coffee, when the firing started.

Page 7819

1 Q. And could you describe the nature of the fire that you talk

2 about?

3 A. All across the village, shells started falling. You could hear

4 infantry weapons firing, fire from all types of weapons. In the village,

5 there were no armed units to put up any resistance. Instead, we managed

6 to run to the basement of that woman. At first, there were five or six

7 of us, and then other neighbours from nearby houses ran to join us,

8 trying to find some safety in that basement.

9 Q. You mentioned infantry weapons and fire from all sort of weapons.

10 Was there artillery fire as well, as far as you know?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who were with you in the basement?

13 A. With me in the basement, there were Suad Masnopita,

14 Senahid Fazlic, Salema Fazlic, Amir Fazlic, Mahmut Fazlic, later we were

15 joined by Osman Omanovic, Bulbul, Hasan, Bulbul, Munib, so every moment

16 the number of us in the basement increased.

17 Q. How long did the fire -- the weapons fire last?

18 A. The firing lasted until 3.00 p.m., which was not quite enough for

19 us to run away. We reckoned there would be no more firing, but instead

20 it continued, and it didn't stop this time until we were arrested.

21 Q. Did you see, from the basement, what happened to any of the

22 houses around where you were?

23 A. At one point, Amir Fazlic looked through the blinds, which were

24 down. He peered through the blinds and he saw Munib Bulbul's house

25 burning some ten metres away from us. At that time, we decided to try

Page 7820

1 running away. Amir was the first to go, then Muharem Islamovic,

2 Dzevad Salkic. I was supposed to be the fourth to go. However, when my

3 turn came, Amir and Salkic came back wounded, and I realised that it

4 would be a futile attempt.

5 At that moment, the attackers came close to us, making a lot of

6 noise and racket, shooting, calling to us to come out. We came out with

7 our arms raised. They pushed us to the ground, asking for money,

8 passports. They took all the jewellery off the women, earrings,

9 bracelets, rings, whatever they had. And then they told us to stand up,

10 intending to put us back in the basement.

11 And then Vasilije Vidovic approached, accompanied by a blonde

12 young man. At that moment, Amir, wounded, fell to the ground. He was

13 shot in the head, and that made me suspect that Vasilije Vidovic was the

14 killer, or perhaps the blonde young man who was with him.

15 Q. Let me just stop you for a brief moment. Where were you standing

16 when this happened?

17 A. I was standing outside, and Amir, wounded, had been standing next

18 to me outside the house, on a concrete slab.

19 Q. He was standing next to you outside the house when he was shot

20 and fell to the ground?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. Did you see who fired the shot that killed him?

23 A. The only people coming towards us were Vasilije and this blonde

24 young man. It could be only one of the two.

25 Q. After this, what happened?

Page 7821

1 A. After that, we were put in the basement again. They obviously

2 intended to kill us, because they were saying, "Get in, get in." They

3 pushed us into the basement, fell us to the ground. Some of them used

4 the occasion to stand on our backs and take photos of themselves.

5 However, then came an order, "Get them out." We walked out, we formed a

6 file, and they took us to Ilijas. At the head of the file --

7 Q. Sorry, we'll get back to this in just one moment. But you said

8 you were being pushed back into the basement because you were going to

9 get killed. Why did you think at the time that you would be killed?

10 A. Because we heard voices saying, "Kill them, burn the place down."

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry, Your Honour, I'm kindly reminded, and I'm

12 afraid I'll forget if I don't, now ask for an exhibit number for 65 ter

13 number 7229. That is the document that the witness was given on the

14 26th.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. Please

16 allow me to come back to this document. I have a series of questions to

17 put on it, and we cannot admit the document before putting these

18 questions.

19 On the 27th of May, 1992, three people, a commission, comes to

20 assess the stock or the property or valuables you have in your home at

21 8.00 in the morning. Did three people come to your house at 8.00 in the

22 morning?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two persons. One was

24 missing and we had to wait for him. It was Jovica Radic who had not

25 come. Zdravko replaced him with Kasim Rozijic [phoen].

Page 7822

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore they looked around to

2 see what kind of goods you had in your house, food stuffs and things, and

3 the like?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was working in the trade of

5 electrical supplies.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they counted and numbered

7 the cables, the electric wires, and so on and so forth?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a register of

9 debits and credits, things taken out, sold.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Seemingly, according to this

11 document, Miroslav Delipara, who was in charge of this, he had to take

12 charge of all this equipment?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He took over the whole shop.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.

15 There is the equipment, on the one hand, and goods. On listening

16 to the Prosecutor and you, one has the feeling that there is a transfer

17 of goods of the entire assets. And on reading this document, as a legal

18 expert, I understand that it is the equipment that relate to a decision

19 taken on the 25th, 26th, 27th, which we don't have, was set aside.

20 You were told to leave the house; it no longer belongs to you, it

21 now belongs to Miroslav Delipara, or were you told that the equipment

22 will be entrusted to Miroslav Delipara? This is not the same thing.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miroslav Delipara became the

24 manager of the shop, and I, as the previous manager, turn over the whole

25 inventory and the goods that were in the shop at that moment. I was

Page 7823

1 replaced as manager because I was a Muslim.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. Let

3 me finish.

4 You have just talked about a manager. You were the manager?

5 When you manage, you manage on behalf of someone. You're not the owner

6 in that case. Who did this shop belong to?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Velepromet Company, Visoko, under

8 the umbrella of Trgopromet, Ilijas.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were the manager not the

10 owner, therefore, they just changed managers?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there was a change of

13 managers; do you agree with me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a replacement of the

15 manager. I was removed from my job.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the risk of having time

18 deducted, I have to draw your attention to one thing.

19 You have a list of the commission who handled the turnover. Two

20 members of the commission are Muslims, and one Serb woman was with them.

21 Maybe it's not easy for you to assess it yourselves, but since you asked

22 the question, I thought it would be of assistance. Now it's on your

23 conscience whether you would deduct it from my time.

24 So it can't have been the reason, just that he was a Muslim.

25 There must have been another reason.

Page 7824

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there's a change of

2 managers. That's what we are told. A Serb is on the commission; what do

3 you have to say to this?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see on the decision that

5 number 2 was a Serb who had not come. He hadn't showed up. You see,

6 Rajko Djuric's signature. He put Kasim Rozajic in the place of the

7 missing one. The third men was Mensura Hadzic [phoen], who got the same

8 decision I did, replacing her from her job, just because we were both

9 Muslims.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the number 2 on the original

11 document in your language, we can see that the name has been crossed out

12 and replaced by "Kasim," I can't read it very well, there's a name here.

13 And he is a Muslim, is he?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kasim Rozajic, yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He's a Muslim, is he?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was an assistant in the

17 shop next-door. He lost his job the very next day because he was a

18 Muslim. So all Muslims, not Kasim, Mensura and I alone, but everybody,

19 all the Muslims. Osman Vrcok [phoen] was replaced by Rade Skando

20 [phoen]. Let me not enumerate all the Muslims who were replaced. The

21 whole business was.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Seselj will address

23 this during his cross-examination.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question to put to the

25 witness.

Page 7825

1 This commission was in charge of assessing the inventory and the

2 equipment, or could the commission have people replaced? Did it have the

3 authority to do that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decision to replace the people

5 was made by the Crisis Staff of Ilijas, signed by Trifko Radic, the SDS,

6 and these people came to count the goods there. The financial situation,

7 the assets, what was missing, what was there. So that was it.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the financial situation was

10 good.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of this

12 document -- this document has to do with the inventory, not to do with

13 the change of managers. And you are telling us that as a result of this,

14 a manager was changed, so it's now on the record.

15 This document only aims at drawing up the inventory; do you agree

16 with me here or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not agree, because you see

18 what it says in that decision? It says: "Decision on bookkeeping and

19 establishing what (redacted) on appointing the

20 commission for the inventory of commodities and other material goods in

21 the shop (redacted)

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May we have an exhibit number

23 for this document, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P456, under seal.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, you have the

Page 7826

1 floor.

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Maybe out of an abundance of caution we should redact, at

4 page 52, line 7, the precise reference to the depot that is in question,

5 just to avoid identifying the witness with such precision.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As Mr. Marcussen hasn't continued

8 the examination-in-chief yet, so since there's a lull and a pause, could

9 you instruct him that during the next break, he provide me with the

10 transcripts of the testimony of this witness in the other trial that we

11 mentioned at the beginning? I don't want to mention the trial's name, so

12 that we don't have to go into private session, but the Prosecution must

13 disclose that to me.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, in case you do

15 have the witness's testimony during the trial which was mentioned earlier

16 today, please disclose it to him.

17 You are nodding to the contrary, so this means you don't have it?

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed, Your Honour, we don't have the transcript

19 of the testimony.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that can be done in

21 15 minutes by fax, and the Prosecution must provide that. And the

22 Prosecution, I am sure, cooperates very well with that court and we can

23 have it here in 15 minutes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, just a minute,

25 please.

Page 7827

1 I was in your job for decades, and I know that technically

2 speaking, you can send an immediate request to your colleague to ask him

3 to be provided with a copy of the testimony. Technically speaking, this

4 is perfectly feasible.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, two -- a few points on this.

6 First of all, the Prosecution only learned that the witness had

7 testified before the State Court yesterday, so we wouldn't have had time

8 to obtain the transcript.

9 The accused is assisted by -- I think we're now up to 36 people

10 that is on his Defence team. He certainly had the resources to request

11 any kind of information that he wished to receive.

12 We now have the problem that the witness testified with

13 protective measures before the State Court, and it might actually

14 therefore not be quite so easy to obtain this material from the State

15 Court. So there's no way that we can provide the accused with this --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I agree with

17 you, but in this trial you're not the only person present. There's

18 Mr. Mundis and Mrs. Dahl and other people. One of your colleagues can

19 make a phone call and call up the Prosecutor in charge and say, "We have

20 heard that. Can you check this with the Registry of the State Court and

21 see whether this can be provided to us either in English or in B/C/S,

22 whether we can have the testimony." The person at the other end of the

23 line will say either, "Yes," or, "No, I can't because I've nobody to do

24 this and I'm alone. This can be done in two minutes." I'm not going to

25 phone up. Why not? I can, and I can ask the Prosecutor to have this

Page 7828

1 testimony. I can demand it of him.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] As we're on the subject, I'd

3 like to say that if the Trial Chamber requests this from the Prosecution,

4 I understand, but I don't agree with the fact that the accused can say,

5 as he did on line 18 -- page 18, I'm sorry, line 23, that the accused

6 must provide this. It is for the Prosecution to conduct its own

7 investigations, and the Prosecution does its job as it deems fit,

8 hopefully. And it's only the Trial Chamber that can order this; it's not

9 the Prosecutor.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, after my

11 colleague's statement, does this not come under your obligations,

12 Mr. Mundis; i.e., that you are under the obligation to disclose this

13 under Rule 66 and 68, anything which you may have and which you must

14 disclose to the accused? The testimony might be exculpatory. Then it

15 would be under Rule 68. If it's not exculpatory, then it would come

16 under Rule 66. This is a question I have for you, Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: There's a very short answer to that, Mr. President,

18 and that is if it's in our possession. This material is not in our

19 possession. Therefore, there is no obligation for us to disclose it,

20 because we cannot disclose that which we do not have.

21 Similarly, there is no obligation for us to go out and get this

22 material. If the accused wants it, as Mr. Marcussen has said, he can go

23 and get it.

24 Now, the next problem is a -- or problems would be a series of

25 practical and legal issues that are intertwined. I know, from dealings

Page 7829

1 with the State Court in the past, that if a witness testifies with

2 protective measures, that material will not be given to us in the absence

3 of a court order. That, of course, has to be done by the Chamber of the

4 State Court, which can be done and can be arranged if this Trial Chamber

5 were to issue an order directing them or asking them to do so.

6 I will also make it clear to the Chamber that the State Court

7 does not maintain transcripts. What they can provide us with are

8 recordings of proceedings. There are summary records made, but there is

9 no verbatim transcript made of proceedings before the State Court. So

10 the best we could hope for would be getting tapes that would require

11 orders of this Trial Chamber and an order of the State Court Trial

12 Chamber to make those tapes available. I would expect we could have such

13 tapes or such material in probably two or three weeks, but we certainly

14 are not going to be able to get something faxed to us, nor are we most

15 likely going to be even in a position where I could get audio files

16 e-mailed to me from the State Court. There are practical and logistical

17 considerations involved. As I indicated, this will require orders of

18 this Trial Chamber and of the Trial Chamber of the State Court.

19 But I want to be absolutely clear that our obligation extends to

20 material that's in our possession. We don't possess this. Therefore,

21 there's nothing for us to disclose with respect to this witness's

22 testimony to the accused.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have heard what

24 the position of the Prosecution is.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, according to an appeals

Page 7830

1 judgement in Delalic et al, the Appeals Chamber gave a definition which

2 is then repeated in a whole series of judgements to the effect that the

3 Prosecutor of the International Tribunal is an employee of international

4 justice and he has two equally-important tasks; to prosecute suspects and

5 to discover potentially exculpatory material to be disclosed to the

6 accused. Those are two equally-important duties on the part of the OTP

7 of the Tribunal.

8 In this case, it is a witness who's already testified, and I've

9 been provided with all the transcripts before the Special Court in

10 Belgrade for every witness appearing here. The State Court of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a court which has an international character of sorts

12 because there are judges from Bosnia-Herzegovina trying there, and each

13 time the Trial Chamber includes one international judge, so the State

14 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina is a sort of branch office, of sorts, of

15 Hague Tribunal, so a court which is far closer, in organisational terms,

16 to The Hague Tribunal than any other court in the world. And so the

17 Prosecution must provide me with those transcripts.

18 So I'm not asking for something that the Prosecution need not do,

19 but I emphasise it must comply.

20 MR. MUNDIS: There is absolutely no obligation for the

21 Prosecution at this institution to go out and search for exculpatory

22 material. Certainly, under the ICC regime, that is the case. If we come

23 across material and we have material that we identify, we disclose it.

24 We do not go out looking for exculpatory or Rule 68 material, number 1.

25 Number 2, I have indicated we don't have this. Even if I wanted

Page 7831

1 to get it, it's doubtful that I could because of the protective measures

2 that are involved.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will hand

4 down a decision on this matter. We have heard Mr. Seselj's request. We

5 have heard the comments on the part of the OTP, and we shall hand down a

6 decision.

7 We have five minutes left before the break, Mr. Marcussen.

8 The Registrar has just told me that it is now time to have a

9 break. We shall have a break, a 20-minute break.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.24 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.46 a.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number of points.

13 We have resumed our hearing. You have approximately one hour

14 left, Mr. Marcussen. Normally speaking, you should be able to finish if

15 there are no procedural incidents.

16 The second point. Mr. Seselj, one point I'd like to clarify as

17 regards seven days. If you were to certify to appeal the decision, the

18 deadline has been shortened to today. So if you file certification to

19 apply, your deadline is today.

20 Second point. The question you have put to the Prosecution, the

21 Trial Chamber has weighed this in light of the Rules. The Prosecution

22 need only disclose those documents that it has, but you can ask the Trial

23 Chamber to have this document disclosed to you. So you need to file a

24 request -- file a motion, and then the Trial Chamber will be seized of

25 the matter.

Page 7832

1 We shall now resume the examination-in-chief. Mr. Marcussen, you

2 have the floor.

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. VS-1055, I'd like to take you back to when you were in the

5 basement. You have explained you were in the basement and you thought

6 you were going to be killed, and then an order came in that you should be

7 taken out of the basement. Was anything said at the time about why you

8 should be taken out or at whose request you were being taken out of the

9 basement?

10 A. We heard a voice telling us to come out of the basement, but I

11 did not notice -- or, rather, I didn't hear who issued the order for us

12 to come out of the basement.

13 Q. Was the order just saying you should come out of the basement or

14 were any reasons given why you should come out?

15 A. We were told that we should come outside. And when we went

16 outside, they ordered us to form a column and said that we would be

17 transported to some other place.

18 Q. And could you describe to us where the column went?

19 A. As they ordered us to put something over our heads, a T-shirt, a

20 jumper, or a jacket, or anything, the column set out in the direction of

21 Ilijas. And on part of the road, which we call Polje, another order came

22 to the head of the group, Boro Margetic, that the group should be turned

23 around and directed towards Visoko. So we turned towards Visoko, and on

24 a section of the road an APC came by, and out of it climbed Zoran Rasevic

25 with the intention of killing us. And the leader of the group there

Page 7833

1 opposed this, he prevented him from doing that, and said that Vasilije

2 had said that he needed men for some other things.

3 So we continued on our journey, and we reached a house, Munib

4 Dervisevic's house, where we came across Vasilije Vidovic again, and he

5 was shooting --

6 Q. Sorry. Please continue.

7 A. He shot in the direction of Sidic Nimza's [phoen] house, and he

8 hit the house. We arrived at the railway station by that time, where we

9 came across a large number of Muslims and Croats who had been captured

10 and were grouped there at the railway station.

11 Q. And let me just ask you two questions about Vasilije Vidovic.

12 You said he shot at a house. What did he shoot with?

13 A. He was shooting from his shoulder, so it must have been a

14 Zolja-type weapon.

15 Q. And a Zolja-type weapon, could you explain to us what kind of a

16 weapon that is?

17 A. Well, I'm not an expert in weapons, I used to be a cook in the

18 army, but he shot from his shoulder.

19 Q. Is it a rifle, is it a rocket, is it -- what kind of a weapon is

20 it?

21 A. A grenade.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, a Zolja is a hand-held

23 rocket-launcher.

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Okay, thank you.

25 Q. Did you see -- did you see how Vasilije Vidovic was transported

Page 7834

1 at this point in time?

2 A. Vasilije went 'round in a dark blue Golf car with a flag on it.

3 It was a black flag with the symbols that I showed you earlier on, on the

4 screen.

5 Q. Did you notice anything in particular in his car?

6 A. On the back seat of his car, there was a television set which he

7 managed to steal somewhere.

8 Q. You were -- when you came to the railway station, were you put in

9 the railway station?

10 A. Yes, this facility belonged to the railway station.

11 Q. You and the other people in the column, were you put in the

12 railway station or not?

13 A. We were at the railway station in Ljesevo, and half an hour later

14 two buses turned up. They boarded us onto the buses and drove us off

15 towards Ilijas. They stopped at the railway station of Podlug, where

16 they tried to put us into the basement of that station. However, that

17 basement was already full, because the Muslims and Croats had been

18 brought there from Ilijas. And they detained us in the old elementary

19 school building, which at that time was used as a -- was being used as a

20 warehouse by the company Iskra from Kranj.

21 Q. Could you describe how the room that you were put in looked?

22 A. The room? Well, we know what a school looks like. It had six

23 classrooms. However, because it was being used as a warehouse, they had

24 bashed through the walls so that the vehicles moving the goods could move

25 along that way.

Page 7835

1 Q. How many people were in the room?

2 A. We were the first people to enter the premises from Ljesevo, but

3 two or three days later, from the basement at the railway station that I

4 mentioned earlier on at Podlugovi, we were -- people were transferred

5 from there who had been incarcerated, and they had been poisoned, because

6 through a little window some sort of bomb or -- smoke bomb had been

7 thrown in. And from the Ilijas community of Bioca, two more buses were

8 brought in with about 100 people, so that the number in the camp by this

9 time had increased to between 130 and 140.

10 Q. Was there anything in the room to sleep on?

11 A. No, just wooden floors, bare wooden floors.

12 Q. What kind of toilet facilities were there, if any?

13 A. The building had no water. There was just one toilet, but there

14 was no water in the toilet either. There were five or six women with us

15 at the time and two children.

16 For the first seven days, we were given nothing to eat, and then

17 after that they would give us half a loaf of bread per person for a

18 period of 24 hours.

19 Q. Who were guarding the people detained at Iskra?

20 A. They were locals, local Serbs who behaved -- well, I have to say

21 this, that they behaved in a proper manner. They were elderly people.

22 The commander was Slavko Risto [as interpreted], and the others were:

23 Veljko Vidovic; Okrilj, Bosko; Simic; Nedzo Milic; Ljubisa Radic. Those

24 are the ones that I can remember at present.

25 Q. Did any local people around Iskra try to help you in any way

Page 7836

1 while you were there?

2 A. Yes. Some people, depending perhaps on their ability, would

3 throw in a loaf of bread, a pack of cigarettes, and there were moments as

4 well when they would get through to us some beet, normally used for

5 fodder, that we ate.

6 Q. How long were you detained at Iskra?

7 A. We were detained in Iskra some three months.

8 Q. At this point in time, did you see Vaske?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did anyone else come to Iskra that you particularly remember?

11 A. A couple of times, some strangers came in, people we didn't know

12 at least. I remember one particular moment when, in a Fiat 128, of white

13 colour, driven with Vasilije Stolac, two men came from the position where

14 I was looking from. One was a tall man, dark-haired, with a beard and a

15 fur hat, and the other one did not have a beard, a stocky man, no fur

16 hat. And I could see them talking outside. I couldn't see them while

17 they were talking. It was like I had a sound, but no image. They were

18 talking outside the open window about some political developments, of

19 course, from their point of view. They told the commander of the guards

20 to prepare ten men, that they would come to fetch them at 5.00. And one

21 young man was taken away by them immediately. That young man was Bakir

22 Sehic. He was later exhumed after the Dayton Accords in a hilly area

23 overlooking Ljubos, a local community near Ilijas. We found out this

24 young man's name was Mica.

25 Mica entered the camp for a while, and there were some infirm

Page 7837

1 elderly men and people lying down on the ground. He told them, "Get up

2 when an officer of the Seselj's guards comes in."

3 Q. Were ten men taken away?

4 A. No. This was prevented by Slobodan Subotic, an inspector on the

5 police force at the police station at Ilijas. He toured the camp

6 frequently, trying to find a way to organise an exchange, because in the

7 territory of Breza he had some family and his parents.

8 Q. After you had been in Iskra, were you taken somewhere else?

9 A. Sometime in mid-August, one civilian came to the camp,

10 accompanied by Nebojsa Spiric, who was in uniform. He informed us that

11 buses would come and that we would be transferred somewhere in Vogosca.

12 The buses did arrive, and we were transferred to the Svrake camp.

13 Q. And how long were you there --

14 A. We stayed there for another two and a half months.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 65 ter

16 number 4272. And as we prepare the exhibit, if we could zoom in, before

17 it's being shown to the witness, just on the picture but without the text

18 that I suspect is underneath the picture. And I venture again to suggest

19 that this picture is number 2 in the witness binder. I hope I'm right

20 this time.

21 I think this is fine.

22 Q. VS-1055, is this -- do you recognise the building on this

23 picture?

24 A. Yes, I do. This is a building known as Planja house, where we

25 were kept.

Page 7838

1 Q. How many people were detained in Planja's house?

2 A. Around 20 people from Vogosca were already there in this house

3 when we arrived. That means that together with our group, we were around

4 120 men, because in the meantime, in Ilijas, some exchanges of elderly

5 people had taken place and the women who had been detained were released.

6 Q. How were the conditions in Planja house?

7 A. Compared to Podlugovi, a water tank came to this house. We got

8 one meal a day, usually around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m. for those who remained

9 in the building. However, many people were not there, because early in

10 the morning they were taken outside to do various types of labour.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Before we move away from the topic of the house,

12 I would ask for an exhibit number for 65 ter number 4272.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please, can we have

14 a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 457.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, a short question.

17 I see the house with three levels, three floors. 120 people in

18 there, and in the morning some people work outside. But during the

19 night, how many people were guarding you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I answer this question, I

21 must say that you can't see the basement that was underneath the whole

22 area of the house. The house had security arrangements, locked gates and

23 everything, and systems, so that there were only two or three men in the

24 house.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there were 120 of you, and

Page 7839

1 two to three people guarded you; is that it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.

5 Q. Who were these guards?

6 A. The guards were members of the army, of the so-called Serbian

7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Predrag Simic, Momir Damjanovic, one

8 named Balorda, and I can't remember his name, Simica Djuric, Stanko

9 Knezevic, and the commander of this camp was Brano Laca [phoen]. His

10 deputy was Nebojsa Spiric.

11 Q. How do you know they were members of the VRS or the Serbian

12 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Army?

13 A. Because they changed. Some went to combat duty and then came

14 back after a while, and then their replacements would go on combat duty.

15 And you could also tell by the weapons they had and their uniforms. You

16 could tell they were army men.

17 Q. You described -- you mentioned that people were being taken out

18 to do work. What kind of work were the detainees to do?

19 A. People would be taken away sometime around 7.00 a.m. by a bus or

20 a van. Brano Laco [phoen] would throw everyone outside, and then they

21 would pick out the number they needed for a certain place. The system

22 was, "You, you and you, get in." Men would go out to dig trenches,

23 communicating trenches, to chop wood, to bury the dead, et cetera.

24 Q. Where were these tasks performed, and in particular where were

25 the trenches dug?

Page 7840

1 A. The trenches were dug primarily in localities facing Zuc hill,

2 Orlic, Sedras, Kremes.

3 Q. Were these --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Witness, let's

5 save time.

6 When you told us what had happened, the fact that you were

7 brought together at the station and then loaded on buses and so on, as I

8 was listening to you I was saying to myself, "Such an operation could not

9 have been put together by just a few persons." It is obviously a

10 military operation. And now you're telling us that you were guarded by

11 the VRS and that some of the detainees were sent off to dig trenches.

12 Very well.

13 You were a victim, you were captured, you were made prisoner, and

14 I'm sure that you can answer my question.

15 According to you, the people who detained you, did they belong to

16 the VRS or were they rogue people operating individually or as a group?

17 What do you feel about this?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this was definitely the army

19 of the RS, Republika Srpska, that organised this camp. That's certain.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You answered my

21 question.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN:

23 Q. Just to be sure that we understand the answer: Do you know who

24 had organised the first place you were detained at Iskra?

25 A. No, I don't know who organised that. I only know who brought me

Page 7841

1 there and who arrested me.

2 Q. So your answer, that the camp was organised by the VRS, that

3 relates to Planja's house?

4 A. Yes. I have no information about the Podlugovi camp.

5 Q. You, yourself, did you carry out any kind of labour?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What tasks did you perform?

8 A. A number of times, I dug at Sedras, Kremes, Mijatovica elevation,

9 but later I stayed on the premises and dug graves for the dead, because

10 every day there were deaths in the area of Zuc, where the VRS was trying

11 to get control of that area and enter Sarajevo.

12 Q. Were the places you were digging trenches, were they close to the

13 frontline?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know of any incidents where detainees from Planja's house

16 were used as human shields?

17 A. Yes. More than once, the VRS organised attacks on the hills I

18 mentioned, Zuc and Orlic, and our men were used as human shields. Many

19 got killed while being used as human shields and while performing labour

20 for the VRS that they were forced to do.

21 If you have no objection, I would like to enumerate a couple of

22 those who got killed, although there were many more. Rasim Avdukic,

23 Hasan Fazlic, Mehmet Sehic, Nermin Skando [phoen], Ramo Hadzic, Nusret

24 Salimovic, Safet Krijeze [phoen], Najl, Durmo, Mujo Sehic, and so on and

25 so forth. There were many of them.

Page 7842

1 Q. Were you, yourself, participating at any instances and being used

2 as a human shield?

3 A. Fortunately, I was not used, myself, as a human shield.

4 Q. So how do you know about these incidents?

5 A. The people who survived, who were used as human shields, would

6 come back to the camp and bring back the dead, those people who got

7 killed and whom I buried myself.

8 Q. While you were at the frontline, did you see Vaske at any point

9 in time?

10 A. Yes, I did. On a hill overlooking Vogosca. It was during a

11 break. Vaske showed up with his men, coming back from the frontline. He

12 saw us, and he just said, "Are you still here?" And he went on his way.

13 There were no problems.

14 Q. What did you understand he meant by that question?

15 A. If you ask me, I thought he was surprised that we were still

16 alive.

17 Q. When did you leave Planja's house?

18 A. Sometime around the 22nd, 23rd October.

19 Q. And where did you go?

20 A. I was reunited with my family in the municipality of Visoko, a

21 settlement of Podvinci, Gorusa.

22 Q. After these events, have you seen Vaske again?

23 A. Vaske Vidovic, the next time I saw him was on television, in a

24 broadcast of Republika Srpska, during the unrest in Belgrade when a mass

25 of people -- a throng was trying to settle scores with

Page 7843

1 Mr. Vojislav Seselj, and newly -- cleanly shaven, very neat,

2 Vasilije Vidovic stood up in his protection, got out his gun and raised

3 it high in the air, intending to shoot.

4 Q. Was it your impression that Vaske was there to protect Mr. Seselj

5 or are you not --

6 A. Could you please repeat that.

7 Q. Was it your impression that Vasilije Vidovic was there to somehow

8 protect Mr. Seselj or was it just a coincidence that --

9 A. No, the only impression you could get was he was a regular escort

10 and bodyguard of Mr. Vojislav Seselj.

11 Q. Did you -- do you know whether Mr. Seselj visited your

12 municipality at any point in time?

13 A. Perhaps I'll make a mistake. It was wartime. Whether it was

14 1993 or 1994 -- where I was living, you could catch the signal of Radio

15 Ilijas, and the author of the programme said that Mr. Vojislav Seselj was

16 visiting Ilijas and held a rally, made a speech in a rally with citizens.

17 This reporter was Gordana Krunic.

18 Q. Did that report mention whether Vasilije Vidovic was also there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Finally, in your municipality were there any destruction of

21 religious property?

22 A. Yes. When we came back to the territory of our own municipality,

23 there was not a single religious site left standing properly. They'd all

24 been razed to the ground. And in talking to the Serbs who had remained

25 and stayed on living there with us, I learned that this was done by

Page 7844

1 Vasilije Vidovic, together with Boro Margetic, Ranko Draskic, and a man

2 called Vitomir Lazic [phoen].

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, this completes the direct

4 examination of this witness by the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have two additional questions

6 to put to you, Witness, please. The first one deals with Vaske.

7 Do you know what happened to this person or did he disappear

8 completely?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from what I saw on

10 television, I don't know what happened to him, to Vasilije Vidovic, after

11 that.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second question: When you were

13 in the locality, did the Muslims set up a crisis staff of their own in

14 order to deal with what the Serbs were doing to try to control the

15 municipality? So I would like to know whether the Muslims got together

16 at that point in time.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time in Ilijas,

18 there were no conditions for any rallying or anything like that, or

19 forming a crisis staff, or anything like that. The authorities had

20 already taken control of it.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yourself, did you ever stand

22 guard in your locality with a rifle or some kind of weapon that would

23 have been given to you by the Muslim policemen in Ilijas before the

24 locality was taken over by Serbs?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stood guard only in front of our

Page 7845

1 own house, with the weapons we had, our own weapons, and they were the

2 pistols that I described. Specifically, the one I had, I had a permit

3 issued by the police, the regular police, until all the trouble started.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you were arrested,

5 what happened to the gun?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The pistol stayed in the house

7 where they captured us.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They found the gun or did they

9 not find the gun?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened to the

11 pistol. We had no further information about that.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question. A very

13 simple one and straightforward. You told us that later on you met with

14 Vaske, who told you, "Oh, you're still there." When you saw him, could

15 you tell me what he was wearing? If you remember, of course.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had the standard type of

17 uniform. He used it in the attack on Ljesevo, and he was wearing that

18 same uniform up there, which means that Vaske had the sajkaca type of

19 cap, he had glasses, and he imitated Draza Mihajlovic. Although he could

20 see perfectly well without the glasses. He didn't actually need to wear

21 them.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who is Draza Mihajlovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Draza Mihajlovic, through history,

24 the history that I was taught at school, and if that history was correct,

25 he was a war criminal who was condemned and sentenced to death and

Page 7846

1 executed, and from the Chetnik movement.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Just one question to you,

3 Mr. Witness.

4 You told us that when Vasilije Vidovic came back from his war

5 experience in Knin, he was escorted -- or he came with a group of

6 approximately 20 persons who, over time, turned Chetnik. My question is:

7 Did you ever see any of these gentlemen later on?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't turn Chetnik, they

9 arrived as Chetniks. They were Chetniks already.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks for this clarification, but my question

11 was: Did you run into them at any later point?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't. They were

13 foreigners. They weren't from our parts at all.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: So they did not stay in the Ilijas area?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war, they most probably

16 were there. But after the war, they left, and we had no further contacts

17 with that group afterwards.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me be more precise. Did you encounter any of

19 these gentlemen during your detention?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met just one group when they

21 were coming back. I mentioned that a few minutes ago, when they were

22 coming back from the front, and when Vasilije said, "Are you still here?"

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the group of Chetniks that you recognised

24 coming from Knin, upon Mr. Vasilije Vidovic's return, were not involved,

25 as I understand, in the detention of the captives.

Page 7847

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The group -- you said "Vasiljevic."

2 Did you mean "Vidovic"?

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, "Vidovic."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vidovic's group was there, and it

5 attacked all the villages in the Ilijas area. They had come there

6 precisely to do that, to attack the villages. They came as warriors, as

7 fighters.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand that they were taking part in the

9 conflict. My question was if they were also involved in the detention of

10 the people with whom you were detained. Did you ever see them in either

11 the Iskra facility or later on in Planja's house?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the arrest, after they

13 arrested people from the village and attacked the village, those people

14 were incarcerated and they no longer appeared.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have until a quarter past

17 1.00. Mr. Seselj, you can start your cross-examination, which will be

18 continued tomorrow.

19 Just a minute. Mr. Marcussen is on his feet.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: One request of the accused.

21 The accused has notified the Prosecution that he will use

22 documents from Defence exhibit binder number 1 from when the

23 Reynaud Theunens testified. The binder has 63 documents in it. We have

24 not been notified of which documents the accused intends to use, so we

25 would request that the accused maybe, before he uses any of the documents

Page 7854

1 The Prosecution has achieved its goal. I'll probably not have

2 time to discuss General Vasiljevic's statement because I have something

3 else to deal with.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

5 Q. Anyway, VS-1055, did you at one time give statements to the

6 Muslims organs of power and authority of Bosnia-Herzegovina; did you give

7 any statements to them ever?

8 A. There were no Muslim authorities. I gave statements to the State

9 Security of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. That's the State Security of the Muslim part of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

12 A. "Bosnia-Herzegovina," that's what it says there.

13 Q. All right. Anything can be written up on a gate post, but we

14 know what the essence is, and I'm interested in how many times you gave

15 statements.

16 A. Well, now, two or three times.

17 Q. Now I want to know whether it's two or three.

18 A. Well, let's say three.

19 Q. What authorities were there?

20 A. The State Security, the Centre for Investigation of War Crimes in

21 Ilijas, the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY. That's it. I don't

22 know, maybe you have more information.

23 Q. You gave a statement to the State Security Service on the 6th of

24 December, 1992; correct?

25 A. Possibly.

Page 7855

1 Q. And to the Municipal Centre for Investigation of War Crimes on

2 the 28th of May, 1993; is that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. When you gave a statement to this Municipal Centre for the

5 Investigation of War Crimes, did you basically tell the same story that

6 you told us in the courtroom today?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this story, as you told this -- I know why you are anxious.

9 Because you've testified falsely. There can be no other reason. Don't

10 make a scene here in the courtroom.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. Let

12 me reassure the witness. I also noticed that he is very worried and

13 concerned. Be relaxed, just relax.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, continue, let him

15 continue.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Don't be afraid or anything.

17 He's just asking a question and you're answering. Everything is running

18 very smoothly. Let's pursue.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not beating anyone; I guarantee

20 that.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've beaten enough people

22 already.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I've beaten enough. I'm not

24 going to do it anymore.

25 Q. Where did you give a statement to the Municipal Centre of the

Page 7856

1 Investigation of War Crimes in Ilijas?

2 A. In Breza.

3 Q. And how long was this interview?

4 A. The time it took me to sign the document.

5 Q. So there was no interview?

6 A. It was a state of war. There was no need. There was no time to

7 talk. It was important to save your skin.

8 Q. So somebody else prepared a document and you signed it?

9 A. It's the same statement I gave to the State Security Service.

10 That's the one that I gave to the Centre for Investigation of War Crimes.

11 Q. So you came to Breza, to the Centre for the Investigation of War

12 Crimes, only to put a signature on a paper prepared beforehand?

13 A. It was the same statement that I gave to the State Security

14 Service and that centre. There is only one truth, and papers can be 100.

15 Q. I'm asking you directly. I want a direct answer. So you came to

16 the centre at their request, at their invitation; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They had prepared a text of the statement, and you just signed it

19 and went out?

20 A. I knew which text it was.

21 Q. Well, did you have the time to read it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You've read the text prepared beforehand and you signed it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. That's all I wanted to know. It's best when you

Page 7857

1 answer very briefly, like now.

2 And the year before, you talked to how many officers of the State

3 Security Service?

4 A. To the State Security Service, I gave one statement.

5 Q. How many officers were there when you gave your statement?

6 A. Two.

7 Q. How long was the interview?

8 A. It was a long one.

9 Q. How long?

10 A. Three, perhaps four hours.

11 Q. There were two officers?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you know them personally?

14 A. Yes, I knew one. I didn't know the other.

15 Q. What's the name of the one you knew?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you give a name -- just a

17 minute, just a minute. It would be best to give the name in private

18 session, because that could help identify the witness.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question. I'm not

20 interested in the name.

21 Q. So when you finished your interview with them, who wrote your

22 statement?

23 A. The statement was written at that time. Nobody wrote my

24 statement.

25 Q. You talked to them for three hours, you said?

Page 7858

1 A. Something like that.

2 Q. And during that interview, one of the officers dictated your

3 statement to the typist?

4 A. I dictated my own statement.

5 Q. Well, three pages cannot be dictated for three hours,

6 Mr. VS-1055.

7 A. It's the interview that took that long, not typing, and at the

8 same time it was being typed out, like today.

9 Q. This thing today, it's LiveNote. It contains every question and

10 every answer. However, what you signed on three and a half pages is not

11 an interview, it's a statement, it's a story.

12 A. A statement, a story, that's what I said.

13 Q. So it was not typed during the interview. Somebody dictated to

14 the typist what to type, and that was not you, was it?

15 A. Yes, it was me. I dictated my own statement to these people. I

16 gave them my statement.

17 Q. You gave your statement to those people, but what you were saying

18 was not the same thing as typed by the typist. She typed instead what

19 the officer of the State Security Service dictated?

20 A. I can't understand a thing you're saying.

21 Q. I know you won't understand a thing I'm saying.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, these questions are

23 technical, but they're essential. There are two ways to proceed. You

24 have been interviewed for three hours with two people. After this

25 interview, one of the persons drafts the statement, types it, and then

Page 7859

1 you sign it. This is one way of proceeding. The other way of proceeding

2 is the following: During the interview, you may say, "On this day, I

3 took out 25 cows," and the person is typing on the laptop or on the

4 typewriter exactly the same thing, saying exactly what you have written,

5 "I took out 25 cows on that day." These are two ways of proceeding, and

6 what Mr. Seselj would like to know and what we would like to know also

7 is: After the three hours of interview with those people, someone

8 drafted a text, typed it. You read it and signed it. Or did it happen

9 in another way?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was like this: The text is

11 truthful. I don't remember at this moment the method of the taking of

12 the statement, the typing itself. What is written there, I don't know

13 what the gentleman is looking at, but it is the truth. If my signature

14 is on it, it's the truth.

15 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I know that the truth is whatever your State Security Service

17 writes and you're ready to sign it. When investigators came from

18 The Hague to talk to you --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I anticipate

20 what you want to say.

21 So, Mr. Seselj, refrain from these kind of comments. They are a

22 waste of time. We understood how the statement was made. Now the rest

23 is of no importance, unless you can really demonstrate and prove that the

24 investigator is the person who told the witness what to say, but this is

25 going to be very difficult.

Page 7860

1 So continue, please.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought, Mr. President, that you

3 have already understood that I find it extremely easy to prove whatever I

4 wanted to prove in this trial. I've proven everything I wanted to prove.

5 Q. When was the first time investigators came from The Hague to see

6 you?

7 A. Investigators from The Hague came for the first time to our

8 place -- well, I can't remember. It was perhaps -- maybe in 2000. I

9 don't remember exactly.

10 Q. Was it 1999, 2000?

11 A. I really can't recall.

12 Q. All right, you can't recall. I expect you won't be able to

13 recall many things from now on.

14 What's written in this paper before me is that investigators from

15 The Hague talked to you for three days, from the 14th through 16th June

16 2004. Is that correct?

17 A. I talked to those people exactly for the time you say, not the

18 whole day each day, but, yes, I cooperated with investigators for three

19 days.

20 Q. Did you show them that statement that you had given at one time

21 to the State Security Service on the 6th November, it says here, but it

22 was the 6th of December?

23 A. I did not.

24 Q. Who gave them that statement?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 7861

1 Q. Did they come with that statement?

2 A. I was in Sarajevo. They didn't come to my place. I came to see

3 them.

4 Q. Did they have that earlier statement in their hands?

5 A. Probably they had it.

6 Q. So they had it?

7 A. Well, I don't know.

8 Q. Did they tell you, "We have your earlier statement," or not?

9 A. I don't remember whether they had my earlier statement. I was

10 doing with them the same thing we are doing here today.

11 Q. You were doing all this, so why didn't they put it in that

12 statement? Why doesn't the ICTY statement contain any of the previous

13 one?

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. Did they want to make the interview shorter?

16 A. I don't know. People were doing their work. What do you mean

17 they wanted to make it shorter?

18 Q. In the fourth paragraph of your statement, it says you read the

19 statement earlier to Muslim authorities, in the Bosnian language, and you

20 even made up that language at the time, and it says:

21 "Ever I said at the time is truthful and correct."

22 Do you really use the Croatian variant when you say "correct"?

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: These sort of comments can only serve as

24 provocation to provoke the witness. It's impermissible. There's no

25 reason why the accused is not just putting a question without making

Page 7862

1 comments.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you said, "in the

3 Bosnian language and even made up the language at that time." This is a

4 waste of time. He's speaking the language of his own country, which is

5 normal. Why say he made it up? He went to school the same as you,

6 learned his own language and speaks his own language.

7 This is pointless, this is a waste of time. We have the

8 Prosecutor on his feet, I have to put everything back on track. Please

9 focus on the essential, go to the essential.

10 You were talking about the fourth paragraph in the statement.

11 This is what we're interested in.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the problem is that

13 he never learned the Bosnian language at school, because that language

14 did not exist when he went to school. It's an issue that's a bit more

15 complicated than that.

16 Q. Do you use the Croatian variant in saying "correct," tocno"?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So why is "tocno" Croatian variant used in your statement?

19 A. It may be a mistake.

20 Q. You mean a typo?

21 A. Possibly, why not?

22 Q. Why precisely in that word should there be a typo?

23 A. Because it's a typo.

24 Q. All right. If it's a typo, why, in that very characteristic word

25 of Croatian you speak, and you say here:

Page 7863

1 "Today I have been asked to provide additional information and/or

2 clarify certain portions of the earlier statement given in the Bosnian

3 language," number such-and-such.

4 So they did not ask you to repeat the statement given on two

5 occasions to the Muslim authorities?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. You

7 are addressing an important topic, potentially important, the fact that

8 this statement might include Croatian terms which the witness would not

9 have used on his own, and you mentioned the word "tocno" [Realtime

10 transcript read in error "tocno"]. He's saying this is probably a typo.

11 Well, it would have been very interesting to see on the screen the

12 statement in B/C/S so you could show it to the witness. It's not "tocna"

13 but "tocno."

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that will not be taken from

15 my time.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I wanted to point out that the version of this

18 statement that the witness signed was the English version, which was read

19 back to the witness. He has signed the English version, so there might

20 be an issue about what terminology has been used in the translation, but

21 the translation was done subsequent to the signature in the statement.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I see Mr. Marcussen is

24 testifying now.

25 Q. Mr. VS-1050 [as interpreted], do you know English?

Page 7864

1 A. No.

2 Q. But you signed a statement in English?

3 A. Well, there must have been a version in Bosnian as well.

4 Q. In that version, there is no signature of yours, and terms are

5 used that you normally don't use. I know this because I'm from the same

6 area as you, and I speak the same as you, and I never used the word

7 "tocno" in my life.

8 A. Neither have I.

9 Q. But what is substantial here? There is a sentence saying that

10 you have read that statement, we're talking about the statement from 1992

11 you gave to the State Security Service, and you say:

12 "Today I've been asked to provide additional information or to

13 clarify some segments of my B/C/S -- or rather Bosnian statement

14 mentioned earlier," ERN number such-and-such.

15 So they didn't ask you to give them a complete statement.

16 Instead, they put to you an earlier statement given to Muslim

17 authorities, and they asked you to provide additional information and

18 clarify a couple of things; is that correct?

19 A. That must be the way investigators work. Nobody asked me

20 anything. It was typed that way.

21 Q. It's a matter of courtesy. It's not that I'm kindly asking you

22 anything, either, although you have shown considerable hostility from the

23 outset. That's not important. What's important is that for the first

24 time we are facing a statement like this.

25 So far, the Office of the Prosecutor always provided complete

Page 7865

1 statements of their witnesses, and even additional ones. There would be

2 three or four witness statements. Now the Prosecution -- please don't

3 let him interrupt me now. I haven't explained this until the end.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: He's making submissions rather than putting

5 questions, Your Honours.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am expressing arguments of a

7 procedural nature, that's correct.

8 Judges, statements are always compiled in complete form. The

9 witness tells his story. The investigators, based on the story, make a

10 text of the statement, and the witness signs it. Sometimes even three or

11 four supplemental statements are drafted. We have encountered cases like

12 that.

13 This is the first time since this Tribunal has been in existence

14 that a statement a witness gave to the State Security Service of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina is taken for granted, and his first and only statement to

16 the ICTY contains a sentence that he recognises everything in the

17 previous statement is correct and he is now only providing additional

18 information and clarifications. This is the first occurrence.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understood.

20 So, Witness, we have three minutes left, and I will ask -- I will

21 put two questions to you to go to the heart of the matter.

22 You spent three days, from June 14th to June 16, 2004, with the

23 investigators. It was an investigator and a translator. The

24 investigators obviously had the statement made by you to Bosnian

25 authorities, since we have the ERN numbers of the statement. So for

Page 7866

1 three days you discussed with them, you talked with them. Very well.

2 After which -- after these three days, an English text was drafted and

3 you signed it.

4 I would like to know the following: Before you signed, did the

5 interpreter, and I could mention his name but I will not do this, did the

6 interpreter read in your own language all pages that had been drafted in

7 English before you signed the statement or were you handed the document

8 which you signed? This is a simple question.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this statement was

10 read out to me in its entirety.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You think that the statement

12 was read out to you in its entirety, and then you signed the pages

13 afterwards?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, please, if I have a couple

16 of minutes remaining, I have to say this. This is very important.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a couple of minutes

18 left.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a very important

20 procedural issue.

21 The point is that a prior statement of a witness is being taken

22 for granted, a statement given to Muslim authorities, and details of this

23 statement are recorded here, whereas the statement to the ICTY is not a

24 complete statement and the substance of his testimony. It's only

25 additional information or clarification of certain portions of the

Page 7867

1 statement given earlier to the secret police of the Muslims. And when I

2 insist that the testimony of this witness before a high official of

3 Republika Srpska, before a state court, be given to me, you reject it

4 casually out of hand. We actually do not have a single complete

5 statement of this witness. The witness signs something drafted for him

6 by the State Security Service. The War Crimes Commission only copied it

7 from the State Security Service the next year, and the ICTY/OTP only took

8 note of what was said to the State Security Service and proceeded with

9 additional questions.

10 So, you see, we have no authentic statement of this witness

11 whatsoever.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, and we will

13 finish in a couple of minutes.

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: It seems that the accused is trying to make some

15 sort of mystery out of this. We can only speculate what that is. But

16 there's nothing at all inappropriate about the procedure that has been

17 adopted.

18 And as to the issue of the signature and the readback of the

19 statement, I'd refer Your Honours to the last page of the statement which

20 have ERN number 0357-7440, which has a declaration by the person who read

21 back the statement to the witness.

22 This is attempts to portray both the conduct of the Prosecution

23 and the orders that Your Honours have given as to how the accused can

24 obtain the testimony of this witness from the State Court are completely

25 inappropriate, and we should simply, in my respectful submission, request

Page 7868

1 the accused to put questions to the witness so we can finish the

2 cross-examination.

3 And I'm sorry I have to take time up in pointing this out, but it

4 is something we have to do in reaction to the accused's conduct.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time to finish, anyway.

6 The cross-examination will continue tomorrow. Please round it

7 off quickly, Mr. Seselj. I have another trial waiting.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am only letting you know that the

10 Prosecutor is avoiding to explain why this witness did not give a

11 complete statement to ICTY investigators, independent of his prior

12 statements. They could have been provided as attachments, but not

13 incorporated in their entirety to the statement given to investigators

14 from The Hague. This is a precedent unparalleled in this Tribunal.

15 Investigators of the OTP are under the obligation to do their

16 duty completely, in full, and instead they use the statement given to the

17 secret Muslim police 12 years earlier.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, I understood what

19 you said, and we will address this tomorrow much.

20 Witness, you are now in the hands of justice, which means that

21 you should not contact the Prosecution. We will meet again tomorrow for

22 the hearing, which will start at 8.30.

23 Thank you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th of

Page 7869

1 June, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.