Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8236

 1                           Tuesday, 17 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

10             This is Tuesday, June 17th, 2008, and I greet the representatives

11     of the OTP, Mr. Seselj, as well as everyone helping us.

12             We are here to continue the hearing of our witness.  It's the

13     cross-examination now.  Mr. Seselj sent us a number of documents which he

14     intends to use during this cross-examination, and the OTP also has the

15     documents or can have the documents.

16             We will now bring the witness into the courtroom.  Could the

17     usher please escort the witness into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  Can you

20     hear me?  Very well.

21             The cross-examination will now start, and I will give the floor

22     to Mr. Seselj.

23                           WITNESS:  SAFET SEJDIC [Resumed]

24                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

Page 8237

 1        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, we're going to begin with the events in the village

 2     of Svrake.  You lived in that village when the conflict broke out between

 3     the Serbian and Muslim armies, and the conflict lasted two days; that's

 4     right, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the Muslims, although they were perhaps less well armed than

 7     the Serbs and the JNA, did not wish to surrender right up until the JNA

 8     Air Force appeared looming above the village; isn't that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You didn't say that during your examination-in-chief, but I

11     learned that four bombs were dropped on the village from the plane.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Nobody was killed by those bombs, but they did frighten the

14     Muslim soldiers, and after that they decided to surrender; that's right,

15     isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   During the fighting in the village of Svrake, just one Muslim

18     soldier was killed; right?

19        A.   I don't know that.

20        Q.   All right.  I have some information that tells me that one

21     soldier was killed.  But, anyway, you lived in the village of Svrake with

22     your family, and when the conflict broke out, you asked a neighbour of

23     yours, who was a Muslim, to put your wife and small child up in his

24     cellar, which served as a shelter; isn't that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8238

 1        Q.   And he refused; he said there wasn't any room; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what do you think, did he refuse you just because there was

 4     actually no room or for some other reason?

 5        A.   Because there was no room.

 6        Q.   And how many people were in that cellar?

 7        A.   I didn't go in to see.

 8        Q.   So you don't know how many people were in his cellar?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Wasn't it logical, if you asked for your wife and small child,

11     for him to say, "Well, let them come into the cellar and I'll stay

12     outside"?  Isn't that what any honourable man would have done?

13        A.   Well, I don't know that.

14        Q.   What's your neighbour's name?

15        A.   Mizet Piknjac.

16        Q.   Mizet Piknjac?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   All right.  Mr. Sejdic, later on, you found -- happened to be in

19     the Muslim village of Korita; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Where you came by buses?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And how many days did you stay in the village?

24        A.   Fifteen to twenty days, thereabouts.

25        Q.   And why were only you returned to Semizovac and nobody else?

Page 8239

 1        A.   I don't know exactly why they sent me back.  Probably because I

 2     was a Roma.

 3        Q.   Because you were a Roma, they had this antipathy towards your

 4     family and you.  Usually, Bosnian Muslims call the Roma "Gurbeti"?

 5        A.   I don't know what they call them.

 6        Q.   And did you hear that one of these people who told you you had to

 7     leave said, "All we need is Gurbetis over here"?

 8        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

 9        Q.   You didn't hear that, okay.  But you told the Serbs that when you

10     arrived in Semizovac?

11        A.   That's not how I put it.  That's not what I said.

12        Q.   So which Muslims in Korita told you that you had to go to

13     Semizovac?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.  I don't know the names of the Muslims.

15        Q.   How many of them were there?

16        A.   I don't know that either.

17        Q.   Well, some people came and said, "You have to go to Semizovac,"

18     right?

19        A.   No, that's not right.

20        Q.   Well, how was it, then?

21        A.   They said, "Anybody who wants to go to Semizovac and Sarajevo,

22     there's a free place down there.  You can pass through.  Nobody will do

23     anything to you."  That's what we heard.  And then my father decided that

24     we should start off towards Sarajevo because we have some family there.

25        Q.   Your father went to Sarajevo, but you went to Semizovac?

Page 8240

 1        A.   No.  My family and my father and all of us went towards

 2     Semizovac, and if we wanted to go to Sarajevo, we had to go to Semizovac.

 3     And there were paramilitary units there, Serbs, Serb paramilitaries.

 4        Q.   And in Semizovac, you joined a work unit and then a combat unit

 5     of the Serb Army, didn't you?

 6        A.   Not straight away.  I didn't join straight away, but when we

 7     arrived in Semizovac, Nebojsa Spiric took us into custody.

 8        Q.   Where did he take you into custody?

 9        A.   Well, he took us to our houses, kept us in detention there,

10     interrogated us, and took my brother away.

11        Q.   Your brother was in the Muslim units; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And they knew about that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   He took part in the fighting for Svrake?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And they incarcerated him and then set him free a few days later?

18        A.   No, they didn't set him free.  They allowed him to report to us

19     at home, to tell us, and then put us in prison in Planina Kuce.

20        Q.   Let's look at this.  He was free for two days, and then he left,

21     and nobody ever learned where he went; right?

22        A.   No.  When he came to our house to tell us, he tried to escape.

23        Q.   Now, is there any logic in them releasing him to go home for two

24     days and then to have him back in prison?  There's no logic there.

25        A.   That's what they did, they released them.

Page 8241

 1        Q.   They let him go home, and then he went somewhere after that, and

 2     you don't know where either; isn't that right?

 3        A.   No.  He came to see us, and then later on he was supposed to

 4     report to the prison in Planina Kuce.  A soldier came to fetch him.

 5     However, he tried to escape, and they captured him somewhere up there

 6     when they brought him to prison.  They took him to Planina Kuce, and we

 7     never heard of him later on.

 8        Q.   As a member of the Work Platoon, you had a salary, didn't you?

 9        A.   Yes, I did, some little salary.

10        Q.   You had a salary?

11        A.   No, I didn't take any salary.

12        Q.   What did you live on?

13        A.   Well, we received some humanitarian aid from them.

14        Q.   From whom?

15        A.   Well, from the Red Cross or whatever.  I'm not quite sure.

16        Q.   You received financial assistance from the Serb authorities?

17        A.   Right.

18        Q.   You were given a certain sum of money, which wasn't a large sum

19     of money, by way of a salary, and every month you would get food issued

20     to you; isn't that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And your family lived on that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Life was difficult, but it was difficult for everyone else, too;

25     they all lived the same way, right?

Page 8242

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And your wife, for that first year while you were doing your work

 3     assignment, became pregnant and gave birth, thank goodness, to a healthy

 4     child, alive and well?

 5        A.   That's what you think.

 6        Q.   Well, where did your wife give birth?

 7        A.   At home.

 8        Q.   Was she given all the medical assistance she needed?

 9        A.   I wouldn't put it that way, I wouldn't say so.

10        Q.   Did she ask for any assistance and the Serb authorities withhold

11     it?

12        A.   She didn't ask for assistance, nor did the Serb authorities come

13     to our door.

14        Q.   You had the right to health insurance throughout the time that

15     you were undergoing your work assignment?

16        A.   That depends.

17        Q.   Well, you had that right; you had the right to health insurance,

18     didn't you?

19        A.   I didn't have that right.  If I did have that right, then the

20     whole time I wouldn't have suffered.  I would have been --

21        Q.   Well, we haven't come to that suffering part, whether you

22     suffered or not, yet.  What I'm saying is of your own free will, you

23     joined the Serb authorities, and then of your own free will, you became a

24     member of a combat unit.

25             Now, may we have on our screens document 0220-4652 on e-court,

Page 8243

 1     please.  I assume e-court is working and the document can be put on

 2     e-court.  The Prosecution provided me with it.  If you don't have the

 3     document, then I'll give you my copy.

 4             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one point for

 5     clarification.

 6             Mr. Seselj says that the witness voluntarily accepted to go with

 7     the Serb authorities, but during the examination-in-chief, he said that

 8     he was forced to go and this was against his will.  Could Mr. Seselj

 9     please quote the source that he's using to say so, unless it's the

10     document he's showing now or he will show?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  It seems that

12     there is a slight problem on the labour done in this unit.  Was he forced

13     to do it or did he do it of his own will, freely?  You seem to say that

14     he had a salary, but he says that he didn't want the salary.  But all

15     elements seem to show that he was free to go.  Maybe the document will

16     shed light on this and go in favour of what you're saying.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to provide an

18     explanation, but I hope that won't be deducted from my valuable time.

19             A work obligation or assignment was prescribed by law in Serbia

20     and Republika Srpska, and the Muslim Croatian Federation took over that

21     law and the regulation.  All citizens that weren't incorporated into

22     their military training assignment were in the work assignment which is

23     parallel to the military assignments, so if you weren't fit for a

24     military assignment, you would have a work assignment, and it has the

25     right to a salary, health insurance and so on.  Certain rights are

Page 8244

 1     incurred on the basis of that status.

 2        Q.   So on the basis of that work of yours in the work unit, you

 3     received a salary, you were supplied with food, and you had health

 4     insurance.  Have you seen the document?  This was issued by the

 5     Command of Military Post 749/12 to which you belonged; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So this is a certificate confirming that you were a member of the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska as of the 4th of April, 1992?

 9        A.   Not correct.

10        Q.   That's what it says on the certificate.  The OTP provided me with

11     that.  Whether that's correct, I'm not interested in that.

12        A.   That's what it can say there.

13        Q.   He was deployed in the Semizovac Battalion, where he still is

14     located, and this certificate is issued for the realisation of the rights

15     to health and social insurance of family members.  Wife, Kadira, born on

16     such-and-such a date, and son, Edim, and daughter, Eldina.  So on the

17     basis of your work assignment, as members of your immediate family, your

18     dependents had the right to social and health insurance, and this is

19     proof -- the certificate was issued in 1994, when you needed it for some

20     purpose?

21        A.   I was not issued that certificate and this is the first time that

22     I see that certificate.  Now, what you're saying, that I had the right to

23     all these entitlements, I didn't have that right straight away.  This was

24     towards the end of the war, and the fact that they gave us humanitarian

25     assistance, they gave us that to help us survive because there was nobody

Page 8245

 1     else to work.  We had to be alive in order to work.

 2        Q.   Now turn to page 2 of that document to see what it says there.

 3     So here we have a document from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic

 4     of Serbia, Department Vogosca, with all the dates and numbers.  The date

 5     is 1994, which also confirms that you, Mr. Sejdic, were a member of the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska from the 4th of April, 1992, and that this

 7     certificate is issued for you to realise your rights from the social and

 8     health insurance regulations, and members of your family, your wife,

 9     Kadira, your son, Edim, your daughter, Eldina, and this certificate

10     cannot be used for other purposes.  This was issued by the head of the

11     department of Vogosca, the Ministry of Defence, Jovo Peranovic, and here

12     we have your signature.  You received that because that's your signature

13     there confirming it?

14        A.   That is not true, sir, that that is the date.  I don't agree with

15     this at all.

16        Q.   Is your signature on that document?

17        A.   It is my signature, yes, but what is typed up above is not

18     correct.

19        Q.   All right.  If the typing's not correct, then it was the wrong

20     typewriter that was used, but I'm interested to know that that is your

21     signature.

22        A.   It could be anybody's.

23        Q.   In 1994, you yourself asked to become a member of a combat unit;

24     is that right?

25        A.   No, it's not.

Page 8246

 1        Q.   And then --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have a document

 3     here.  It's not translated, but I think we can understand what this

 4     document is all about.  It's a military document.  On the left, there are

 5     references, numbers.  There's a date, 11th of May, 1994.  Then we also

 6     see your name.  It says that since April 4th, 1992, you belonged to the

 7     VRS.  And there's also mention of your relatives.  And on the bottom

 8     left, this document seems to bear your own signature.

 9             Mr. Seselj has asked you whether this was your signature.  You

10     said, "Yes, it is," after which you said something else.  So I'll ask the

11     question myself.  Does this document bear your signature?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature, but it's

13     not the date, and not all this is correct.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When did you sign this

15     document?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was signed in 1994,

17     going on 1995.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  It seemed that it was

19     signed on May 11, 1994.  At least that's the date that seems to be

20     written next to your signature.  If the document was signed in 1994 by

21     you, it has to do with something that happened before 1994.  And by

22     signing this document, you authenticated what was written above.  So

23     there are two possibilities.  Either what we have here is a forged

24     document or what you signed here does not correspond to what is written.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The text here -- well, the dates

Page 8247

 1     don't correspond to the text, and what's typed out here, as far as I can

 2     see, not everything is correct, because what they're saying here is that

 3     from 1992 until 1995, when I agreed to be their soldier.  I never agreed

 4     to be their soldier, nor was I their soldier, from 1992, but that was

 5     from 1994 and the end of 1995, when they forced me to become one of their

 6     soldiers.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 9     I didn't.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has the document in

11     English, and it's up to them to show you the original, because I was

12     disclosed the document by the OTP and I see the -- you can see the ERN

13     number, which means that it should be on e-court.  Now, why it's not on

14     e-court, I really don't know.

15        Q.   Anyway, Mr. Sejdic, do you know who Meho Osmanovic is?

16        A.   Yes, I do know who Meho Osmanovic is.  He's my neighbour who was

17     in the work platoon with me.

18        Q.   And this man, Meho Osmanovic, was considered to be a decent,

19     honest man; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And Meho Osmanovic, in 1995, gave a statement to the sector of

22     the state security, the Ministry of the Interior for the Muslim part of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, so may we have 03487511 document, please, up on our

24     screens?  It's the ERN number, you haven't got it?  What is the

25     Prosecution doing, I have to do their work for them.

Page 8248

 1             Now, you're going to show page 1 of the document for us to see

 2     the date, and then page 17.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.

 4     This document comes from the OTP?

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] When we reviewed the documents in

 6     order to find exculpatory documents, we disclosed these documents to

 7     Mr. Seselj, and then it's up to Mr. Seselj to upload them into e-court,

 8     if he wishes to.  This is not up to the OTP to do this.  The OTP just has

 9     to disclose them under Rule 66(B) or 68 and that's it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This means that

11     this document was not up-loaded into e-court by the OTP.

12             We have it on the ELMO.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I received this

14     document from the OTP a week ago, a week ago, and that is when they were

15     supposed to upload it into the e-court system.  How could I do that?  I

16     know how to drive a nail into a wall, but to drive this into a computer,

17     no.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

19             MR. MUNDIS:  Good morning, Your Honours, and to Dr. Seselj.

20             This issue has come up several times and we want to make it very

21     clear that it's not our job to upload documents into e-court for

22     Mr. Seselj.  If he wants documents uploaded into e-court, then he needs

23     to take whatever steps or arrangements have been made with the Registry

24     in order to do that.  The fact that we disclose material does not mean

25     that we upload it into e-court for his use.  It's up to the parties to

Page 8249

 1     make sure that material is uploaded into e-court, and if Dr.  Seselj

 2     needs some training on that, then we can certainly arrange for that to be

 3     done, but it's not our job to upload Defence documents into e-court.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But independently

 5     of this, at the OTP do you have the English translation of this document?

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Which document are we talking

 7     about?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The one that's on the screen.

 9             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I can't tell you out of the blue.

10     When we see some documents, some are in B/C/S without translation, and we

11     have a language assistant that could help us and can make a side

12     translation of it, and then we can decide whether it is exculpatory or

13     not.  So a document disclosed to Mr. Seselj in B/C/S will not necessarily

14     have an English translation.  I can check this, however.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another mystery.  This document

16     that's of May 18, 1995, and I think I understood that Mr. Seselj just got

17     it a few days ago.  Why is it that such an old document was only

18     disclosed to Mr. Seselj a few days ago?

19             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This person making the statement

20     is not on our witness list.  When searches are made to try and find

21     exculpatory material using the names of future witnesses, then sometimes

22     documents crop up, and this is when we review them and disclose them in

23     due time.  Mr. Seselj obtained this document in due time and can use it.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you may proceed.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

Page 8250

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I always have the most time at my

 2     disposal.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Sejdic, let us look at the cover page of this document.

 4     We see the number, the date.  We see that it's marked "Official Secret,

 5     Strictly Confidential."

 6             Can we have a look at page 17 now?  I think it's 17.  Let us see

 7     what this man says, for whom we stated that he was an honest man in your

 8     community:

 9             "I claim that --"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we do not have the text.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   " ... he took part in the Chetnik formations from the

13     Intervention Platoon of the Semizovac Battalion.  He took part in

14     fighting at Mount Zuc and in some fighting at the localities during the

15     course of 1993 and 1994.  I personally saw him carrying the PM-84."

16             That is that sower of death, right, that machine-gun, PM-84?

17             "And I heard that Vaske Vidovic, because of his good actions in

18     the Chetnik units, called him to join him, that is to say, to join the

19     formation that he commanded."

20             Is this man stating the truth, Mr. Sejdic?

21        A.   Mr. Seselj, this is not correct.  And what Mr. Meho is saying is

22     what you brought up here in writing with your own notes.  That is your

23     procedure and that is how you always defend yourself, with such

24     procedures.

25        Q.   Do you think I wrote this document?

Page 8251

 1        A.   I don't know who wrote this document, but this was never true.

 2        Q.   Wait a moment.  Is this your suspicion, that Meho, whatever his

 3     last name is --

 4        A.   Osmanovic.

 5        Q.   -- that he made this kind of statement?

 6        A.   Meho Osmanovic was with me in the work platoon.  I know that.  As

 7     for such statements made by him, that he claimed that this was true, that

 8     is not true.

 9        Q.   Please let us look at the signature.  Meho Osmanovic, he signed

10     every page.  Is this his signature?

11        A.   I don't know.  I didn't go to school with Meho, so it's not that

12     I knew what his signature was like.

13        Q.   All right.  I think that you can give that kind of answer, I

14     respect that answer of yours, but do you think that I fabricated this

15     document in order to expose you to some embarrassment?

16        A.   As far as I know, we are not here on account of Meho Osmanovic

17     but on account of you and all the members of your groups.

18        Q.   We're here because of you, Mr. Sejdic, as well.

19        A.   Lies.

20        Q.   All of what you say are lies.

21        A.   All of what you're saying are lies.  If you say that I carried a

22     death sower --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, let's not have a debate

24     here with the accused.  Please do not debate with the accused, basically.

25     You have the first page of the document.  Please, can we see the first

Page 8252

 1     page?

 2             Very well.  Witness, please look at this document attentively.

 3     This document was made on the 18th of May, 1995, apparently; in other

 4     words, right after the conflict.  It's a statement that was taken on that

 5     date, and this person, who is your neighbour, he states some facts.  Why

 6     would you say that in 1995, he says this about you, because in fact

 7     Mr. Seselj has nothing to do with this whole story on the 18th of May,

 8     1995?  So an investigation was carried out by the authorities of Bosnia

 9     and Herzegovina in the Sarajevo sector, and this is what we can see on

10     top.  So, in other words, nothing in favour of Mr. Seselj.  And this

11     Meho Osmanovic states these facts.  Why would he say that?  This is what

12     we're trying to understand.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for this document,

14     I am aware of this Meho Osmanovic, but I don't know who he gave the

15     statement to.  As for Meho Osmanovic, he was on the work platoon, and

16     afterwards, in 1995, he did see me with Rajko Jankovic and his unit, as I

17     have already pointed out.  I had to do what Rajko told me to do.  I did

18     not kill people, I did not slit people's throats, but I did carry a

19     weapon and I did follow him.  I've already said that.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So you do admit

21     that you bore weapons.  That's new.  That's a new fact, isn't it,

22     Witness?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you bore weapons

25     that you had on you.  Did you carry the PM-84, the death device or the

Page 8253

 1     death sower?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was a PM of

 3     Mr. Rajko Jankovic.  I carried his weapon and walked behind him.  When he

 4     went into action, he used the weapon to shoot, not me.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is what you told

 6     us in chief?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I pointed that out.  When I

 8     was a member of that unit of theirs, that I walked behind Rajko Jankovic

 9     and I carried his weapon; and not only his weapon but the weapons

10     belonging to all the others.  Whoever found anything heavy, they'd give

11     it to me to carry.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So, Mr. Dutertre.

13             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry to intervene,

14     but very briefly.  Line 12, once again page 16, line 12, there were some

15     inappropriate statements regarding lies.  This was already discussed

16     earlier.  I will not go into why this is inappropriate, but this should

17     stop and Mr. Seselj should stop mentioning lies.  This is causing

18     pressure for the witness that is here and also for the future witnesses.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  The Chamber told you,

20     Mr. Seselj, not to mention lies, not to accuse the witnesses of lying.

21     The Chamber is working on a decision, and from now on the Trial Chamber

22     will redact every time you mention such words.  So once again, you are

23     notified.  We are asking you to avoid using those words.  You have a

24     document.  You can put questions to the witness, and if you want to state

25     the witness is not saying the same thing as the document, you can mention

Page 8254

 1     it, but that's all.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to know the

 3     following:  Do you know, when this statement was given, in what

 4     conditions was it given?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you're asking

 6     me.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but I would

 8     like to know if you knew that an investigation was carried out as to the

 9     people who took part voluntarily or not in the war, who were Muslim and

10     who may have participated within Serb forces.  I would like to know if

11     this statement may have been taken in that context or in those

12     conditions.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly whether this

14     statement was taken in that way, because I don't know about Meho and the

15     others who were on the work platoon with me, when they were examined and

16     when they made statements.  I haven't seen that.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you knew that investigation

18     was carried out in 1995, investigation carried out by the Bosnian

19     authorities?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  When the war ended, the CSB,

21     that's what it was called in Sarajevo, they would bring in people -- I

22     mean their services that worked worked on the basis of these statements,

23     and they brought in myself and other people who had been prisoners to

24     make statements as to what happened when the village of Svrake was

25     attacked and the other villages from 1992 up until the end of the war.

Page 8255

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But this is not after the war.

 2     The date here is the 18th of May, 1995.  Are you aware if an

 3     investigation was carried out on or about that date?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  I really

 5     could not say.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am so astonished

 9     by what you said a few moments ago that I can hardly recover.  I did not

10     tell the witness that he was lying.  It's the witness who said that I was

11     lying.  And now you are attacking me on account of that.

12             A few times, you told me that I'm not supposed to say that a

13     witness is lying, although the basic proposition of my Defence case is

14     that the Prosecution appears here with false witnesses and false

15     propositions.  I understood your threat.  I'm always going to say in this

16     courtroom that the Judges are very honourable people, the Prosecutors are

17     even more honourable, and the witnesses are the most honourable of all,

18     and I am the only one who lies in this courtroom.  And I'm going to keep

19     pointing that out all the time, so I'm going to do that all the time.

20     There's no need for you to caution me about that anymore.  But this is

21     really astonishing.  I never said to this witness that he is lying.  He

22     said that I was resorting to lies.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, the speaker is speaking too

24     fast.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, maybe there was an

Page 8256

 1     interpretation error.  The Prosecutor may have understood or

 2     misunderstood that you were accusing him of lying.  You may be right in

 3     what you've stated, but I was not only thinking about this particular

 4     case or instance.  The Chamber does not want you to mention all the time

 5     that the witness is a false witness.  We will see that in due time when

 6     we assess the statements and when we have to evaluate the probative

 7     value, but for now we don't know.  We have a witness who is here, who is

 8     giving us a certain version of facts, and then we have another witness,

 9     giving us another version of facts, the only difference being that the

10     witness before us is under oath.  The other witness is not under oath,

11     and that's a difference, but there's a contradiction.

12             This witness tells us that he bore arms, whereas the other

13     witness states that he was shooting with the unit, so that's the basic

14     difference.  Maybe he is telling the truth, maybe he is lying.  I don't

15     know.  But it's after evaluating all the elements that we have that we

16     will be able to establish the facts, and at this point in time it is

17     premature to say that this witness is a false witness or not.  We don't

18     know at this point in time who is the false witness and who is not, and

19     it is through cross-examination that you will be able to assess the

20     credibility of the witness and that you will be able to put questions as

21     to the substance of the case.

22             This cross-examination started, it is not over yet, so please

23     continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is an

25     inappropriate way of interrupting my cross-examination.  From this moment

Page 8257

 1     onwards, I've already told you, for me all the witnesses here are

 2     truth-loving people.  Everybody's telling the truth except for me; I'm a

 3     liar.

 4        Q.   Now, I, as a liar, ask Mr. Sejdic whether that means that he

 5     never had a weapon issued to him, this M-84, the machine-gun that is

 6     called the death sower?  You were never issued with this weapon as your

 7     own?

 8        A.   I was never issued with this weapon as my own, unless I carried

 9     Rajko's weapon.

10        Q.   So you never had one issued to you in your own name?

11        A.   Never.

12        Q.   I have another statement here of a very honourable and honest

13     man.  Could you show this to the witness?  I'm sure they don't have this

14     in e-court, ER025349.  I find this number to be strange, so we're just

15     going to quote a small paragraph from that statement.

16             This is a statement made by an honourable man whose name is

17     Kasim Sejdic.  That is your father; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Please, the part that I marked, this is what -- oh, just take it

20     back.  Let us see the date of this statement.  This is a statement made

21     by your father on the 14th of March, 1996, to the Centre of the

22     Security Services in Sarajevo.  That is when the Muslim Army had already

23     taken Ilijas, Vogosca and Ilidza.

24             Now, scroll back down, and I'm now going to quote this paragraph.

25     This is what your father says:

Page 8258

 1             "My son, Safet Sejdic, born in 1969, was mobilised by the

 2     Chetniks in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1994, and they issued to him

 3     a machine-gun, M-84 (death sower), and he went to the frontlines at the

 4     hill of Zuc, towards Visnjica and elsewhere.  During 1995, he held the

 5     lines at Lipa, facing Srednje.  He was in the Serb Army until February

 6     1996.  He received cigarettes and a salary from time to time."

 7             This is what your father stated.  Could you scroll down so that

 8     we see the signature?  Is this your father's signature?

 9        A.   My father would never say something like this.  These are lies.

10     You will never prove to me that my father said this.

11        Q.   Am I the one who's lying here?  Feel free to say so.

12        A.   I don't know.  My father didn't do this.

13        Q.   Since I'm the only liar in this courtroom, then I am the one who

14     lied about this, who typed this up falsely and falsified your father's

15     signature?

16        A.   This statement is not true.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this document bears

18     the signature of your father.  Your father seems to confirm what we have

19     seen up until now, that is, that you were on the frontlines and that you

20     had the M-84 weapon.  Maybe the person who drafted this drafted this the

21     way it is drafted, but when we read this, coming from your father, we are

22     under the impression that your father says that you were a member of the

23     VRS.  He didn't say that you were forced to be a member.  Didn't your

24     father ever tell you that he was heard as part of an investigation?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father never -- my father never

Page 8259

 1     said this to me, and I don't know of my father mentioning this, my father

 2     saying that I was a member of all of this, that I carried weapons,

 3     whatever.  He knows full well that my father was with me, and my father

 4     knows all the suffering that I went through and all the suffering that he

 5     went through; that is to say, whenever I went to the frontline following

 6     Mr. Rajko Jankovic and the rest from his Intervention Platoon, he also

 7     carried shells, ammunitions, just like I did, so I carried Rajko's

 8     weapons.  So perhaps when he saw this and when they questioned him, maybe

 9     he said that, that I carried this weapon.  But all of this, I don't know,

10     really.  I really find all of this to be something that I don't know, all

11     these writings.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, according to me, the only

14     thing that should be clarified is whether you were mobilised or not.

15     That's what I heard in the translation or interpretation.  The fact that

16     you worked with the Serb forces on the frontline, which is what you told

17     us during the examination-in-chief, you told us that you bore weapons for

18     a person for whom you worked, you accompanied that person to the

19     frontline, you carried his weapon, so that's nothing new.  It's not in

20     contradiction with what you said previously.  Now, if you were mobilised

21     because you wanted to go and fight on that side, that's the question, or

22     if there was a forced mobilisation.  This is what we should clarify.

23     Maybe it's impossible to clarify that point while reading this statement.

24     I don't know, because I don't speak B/C/S, but would you please try to

25     tell us exactly and precisely what is written on that first line on the

Page 8260

 1     document after your date of birth?  We can read here "Cetnici su

 2     mobilizovali."  Is this what we can read here?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what is written there.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And could you please tell us

 5     what this means in your daily language, in the language that you

 6     understand on a daily basis?  What does it mean?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here, allegedly, that I was

 8     issued this M-84.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The word "zaduzili," what does

10     that mean?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Issued, "zaduzili," to take

12     weapons.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, when an army mobilises

14     someone, does that mean that this army is mobilising only those who are

15     already recruited or not?  In other words, I would like to know if, by

16     reading this, we can understand that you were mobilised on a voluntary

17     basis or were you forced to join in?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was forced to join that army.

19     This was in 1995, the end of 1995, when they gave me that weapon, and I

20     stated that.  In my statement, I said I was a member of their unit, the

21     Intervention Platoon.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So from this statement, we

23     cannot clearly understand if this was a forced mobilisation or a

24     volunteer mobilisation?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mobilisation was forced

Page 8261

 1     mobilisation.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But this is not what we have

 3     here on the document; right?  It's not written.  There's the benefit of

 4     the doubt.  We don't know; right?  But from reading this document, we

 5     cannot infer that you were mobilised as a volunteer, on a voluntary basis

 6     of your own free will, and that you were not forced to join the forces.

 7     We don't know; is that right?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, I said it

 9     correctly, when I was mobilised and when they gave me a weapon.  I did

10     not accept it of my own free will.  They forced me to do that.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, when it says that you were issued the machine-gun

15     known as "death sower," the M-48 [as interpreted], that means that you

16     sign a receipt with your name, and that's what every soldier does when

17     he's issued a weapon?

18        A.   I think Jankovic gave it to me, and I said that at the beginning,

19     when I was a member and when they gave it to me, and I had to because

20     they threatened me.  He personally said all sorts of things to me.  I

21     know that very well.

22        Q.   At one point, with this machine-gun, you could have killed his

23     whole unit?

24        A.   Yes, if you think he put a whole round of bullets in my -- a

25     whole clip in my machine-gun.  He just gave me a few bullets, and he kept

Page 8262

 1     asking me where the Muslims are.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, I use the second-person plural, which is the proper

 3     way to address somebody.  You have used the second-person singular, you

 4     have used the "tu" instead of the "vous" in addressing me, so I'm asking

 5     you to address me in the proper way, please.

 6             Now, tell me, Mr. Sejdic, why would your father tell the Muslim

 7     authorities that you had been issued this machine-gun?

 8        A.   If my father stated this and gave this statement, then he had to

 9     say -- well, he had -- they had the statements, he had to say it that

10     way, which means my father did not lie.  He gave the statement because he

11     knew that I carried Jankovic's machine-gun, that I escorted him, followed

12     him, and that I carried the gun for him.  He knows that very well.

13        Q.   Now, you know in this last paragraph of that statement, your

14     father says that:

15             "My words are included in the statement, and I recognise it as

16     being my own, and I sign it with my own hand."

17             Is that your father's signature there at the bottom?

18        A.   I'm not quite sure.

19        Q.   Can you see that Nedim Curevac, an employee of the city, took

20     this statement, the clerk, and the recorder was Jasna Pasovic?  Very

21     well, Mr. Sejdic.

22             Now, we've finished with the document.  You can take it away.

23             But is it true that the Muslim authorities arrested you at the

24     beginning of March 1996, after taking over control of that part of

25     Sarajevo?

Page 8263

 1        A.   Arrested me, you mean?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   I don't remember that the Muslims arrested me.

 4        Q.   Did they take you into detention and took you to the

 5     State Security Station?

 6        A.   That was when the blue route was open, the convoy known as the

 7     blue convoy, when the Muslims were going back to Semizovac and Vogosca.

 8     That's when I was taken to the CSB, as it was called, the Centre of

 9     Security.

10        Q.   And did they find on you an ID -- a military booklet of the

11     Army of Republika Srpska?

12        A.   No.  I handed over my military booklet and told them the whole

13     truth, how it happened and what happened.

14        Q.   Who did you hand your military booklet over to?

15        A.   At the CSB.

16        Q.   Of the Muslim Croatian Federation?

17        A.   Right.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Could the next document be put on

19     the overhead projector, 00397418.  I assume that you don't have this on

20     e-court, either, so we're going to look at page 1 and what it says at the

21     top.  00397418 is the number.

22        Q.   This is your statement which you gave on the 14th of March, 19 --

23     or, rather, the 16th of March, 1996, to the Centre of Security Services,

24     the CSB, and you can see here that it says this:

25             " ... is in possession of a military booklet issued by the

Page 8264

 1     military post 7033/15 Vogosca by the Army of the so-called

 2     Republika Srpska."

 3             And then it goes on to say that your personal ID number was

 4     recorded there and so on, and what it is.  So that's the military post

 5     that you denied.  Were you a member of that military post?

 6        A.   I don't know the exact number.  I have absolutely no idea about

 7     that.

 8        Q.   You have no idea; right.  Now, do you know who Dragan Gavric is?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You don't know who Dragan Gavric is?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12        Q.   Well, that's very strange, because he knows you.

13             So let's have document number 7.  I sent it in to you this

14     morning.

15             Dragan Gavric, nicknamed Kele.  Did you know somebody who was

16     nicknamed Kele?

17        A.   I have no idea.

18        Q.   All right.  If you don't know, let's see, because he knows you

19     well.  This is a statement that arrived a moment ago, given by this

20     Dragan Gavric, aka Kele, who listened to your testimony on Thursday.  I

21     don't know him, but he contacted my expert team and gave this statement

22     that was authenticated in the administrative service of Bijeljina

23     municipality on the 13th of June.  That's where he went to certify it,

24     and I was faxed this this morning.  Here's what it says, what Dragan

25     Gavric, also known as Kele, says:

Page 8265

 1             "I know Safet Sejdic very well because we slept in next-door beds

 2     in the dormitory of the Intervention Platoon of the Semizovac Battalion

 3     in Svrake village which was always on the alert in order to respond to

 4     the BH Army attacks."

 5             Do you remember that man now, this man Dragan Gavric?

 6        A.   No, I don't, and these documents that you're being sent, I don't

 7     know how you come by them, how you're being sent them.  Anyone can be

 8     sent documents like this.

 9        Q.   Well, everything that we've looked at so far are documents

10     provided to me by the OTP, including your father's statement.

11        A.   I don't know.  This document is not correct.  I don't know about

12     any of this.

13        Q.   Were you a sportsman, yourself?

14        A.   No, I wasn't a sportsman.

15        Q.   You weren't a sportsman; right?  Anyway, Dragan Gavric says that

16     you were a good fighter, and here it says in paragraph 4:

17             "I know exactly that in those battles, he killed a total of ten

18     enemy Muslim soldiers."

19        A.   That's a lie.

20        Q.   Then he goes on to comment on your testimony in The Hague.  We're

21     not interested in that, so we'll skip that over.  And then he goes on to

22     say -- Dragan Gavric goes on to say:

23             "I can testify that on the 23rd of February, 1996," and he's

24     talking about you now -- "he was facing a great dilemma, whether to

25     withdraw with the Serbian population, but he stayed on nonetheless, and

Page 8266

 1     this resulted in terrible torture and beating by his Muslim neighbours

 2     after they had taken control of Semizovac."

 3             Now, is that true?  Were you beaten by the Muslim authorities

 4     when they captured you?

 5        A.   This document, gentlemen, Judges, none of it's correct.

 6        Q.   You mean it's not true that they beat you when you were arrested?

 7        A.   What you're putting to me now in all those questions, and putting

 8     to me something about some Dragan and what he said, I have no idea who he

 9     is.

10        Q.   Well, he gives us his particulars.  He lives in Djureva Jaksic

11     [phoen] Street, Bijeljina, he certified the statement.  Now, I've never

12     met him, I've never seen him, but you say you don't know him.  Very well.

13        A.   I'm astonished how you managed to come by this document, because

14     it seems that everybody gets these documents and sends them to you.

15        Q.   Well, you don't imagine that I'm going to explain how I get my

16     documents.  I get them from the OTP.

17        A.   Well, how you -- can you ask me these questions, do I know this

18     and do you know that?

19        Q.   Did you know Mujo Djafic?

20        A.   I don't know him, either.

21        Q.   Did you know Faruk Djafic?

22        A.   I don't know him, either.

23        Q.   Now you don't wish to know anyone, I see, as of now on.  All

24     right.  Do you know who Miroslav Spiric is?

25        A.   Miroslav Spiric?

Page 8267

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Do you mean Nebojsa Spiric?

 3        Q.   No, this is Miroslav Spiric.

 4        A.   I don't know Miroslav Spiric.  Perhaps that's his father,

 5     Nebojsa's father.

 6        Q.   He says that he's a neighbour of yours and that your house is

 7     just a hundred metres away from his own and that he's known you from

 8     birth.

 9             May we have statement number 8 placed on our screens, please.

10     This is what Miroslav Spiric says, and he now lives in Zvornik.  This is

11     what he says, here we are:

12             "I can state that Mr. Safet Sejdic was not forcibly mobilised,

13     nor was anybody from Semizovac or after Svrake being handed over.

14     Everybody could go where they wanted, and Svrake --"

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

16             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Maybe there's a problem here

17     regarding this -- but as of document 8-1, I have no certification on the

18     page.  Maybe I'm missing a page, maybe there should be a second page with

19     a certification page that I don't have, unless -- I apologise.  There is

20     a second page, but the certification is not on the document itself, and

21     because of this I didn't make the connection.  I apologise.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The certification is on the back of the document, and when I am

25     faxed this, then it has to be on two pieces of paper, not on one.

Page 8268

 1     Anyway, you say you don't know him, whereas he seems to know you very

 2     well.

 3        A.   This statement, the statement that he says he -- in which he says

 4     he knows me, well, we weren't voluntarily -- or, rather, that means we

 5     voluntarily applied to be members of your army.  If we were free, we

 6     wouldn't be with you; we would be on the Muslim side with the Muslims,

 7     had we been free.

 8        Q.   Well, you already left with the Muslims.  You were in Korita,

 9     Mr. Sejdic, and then the Muslims didn't want to take you in.  They sent

10     you away.  They said denigrating things to you and called you "Gurbetis,"

11     that's another phrase for the Roma, but that's what the Muslims in Bosnia

12     call you, the "Gurbeti."

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're speaking way

14     too fast and we're losing track of what you're saying, so please slow

15     down.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So you were already with the Muslims in Korita and the Muslims

18     sent you away, they didn't want to have you amongst them, and they called

19     you all sorts of derogatory names, they called you a "Gurbeti" and

20     referred to you as "Gurbeti" and said they didn't want any "Gurbetis"

21     there, and then you went to the Serb side and everybody says you were a

22     brave fighter?

23        A.   That's not true.  I was brave when you wanted me to bring in your

24     dead and to follow Jankovic, to carry his weapons.  So I suffered a great

25     deal from you, so don't keep talking to me about things like this.

Page 8269

 1        Q.   You came here to testify of your own free will, and you're going

 2     to have to take this to the end even if you find it unpleasant.

 3        A.   I will take it all, because I'm right.  Now, what you're saying,

 4     I'm not going to say what you want me to say.

 5        Q.   Your neighbour, Miroslav Spiric, in paragraph 4, let's zoom down

 6     that page a little, says that:

 7             "Safet Sejdic, throughout the war, was voluntarily on the same

 8     side, and in 1994, he left to join the Intervention Platoon at his

 9     personal request, where he took part in the most complicated actions and

10     operations.  Throughout this time from 1992, he was on the payroll of the

11     Army of Republika Srpska.  And I can confirm that because I was the main

12     administrative person in the battalion.  And also, Safet Sejdic,

13     throughout the time, took his meals in Kulin Dvor Cafe and was given his

14     regular amount of cigarettes.  The Kulin Dvor Cafe was where the Command

15     was, and the restaurant was on the ground floor, where food was issued on

16     a regular basis."

17             Is what Miroslav Spiric says here true?

18        A.   As far as I know, and as far as I understand what you're talking

19     about, about the food and the cigarettes, when we went to work they would

20     give us a packet of cigarettes, when we deserved it, that is.  And

21     I think that I say that in one of my statements, that I say that when we

22     went to the frontline and when we did something well, they would give us

23     food and let us go and visit our wives and children.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, this man, Miroslav Spiric, also tried to stay in

25     Vogosca when the Serbs withdrew.  Although he's a Serb, he wanted to stay

Page 8270

 1     in his own house.  However, this is what happened to him, and he says

 2     that in the next paragraph.  He says:

 3             "I am one of the unfortunates who believed that peace had been

 4     signed and that the situation would return to normal.  However, on the

 5     13th of May, 1996, members of the BH Army, under the leadership of

 6     Nail Gajovic, beat me black and blue, me and my wife.  They even broke my

 7     left leg and two of my ribs, and there are documents to prove it,

 8     recording it.  And I also have to state that after they entered it, after

 9     Dayton, the soldiers of the BH Army completed devastated the Serb

10     cemetery.  And as far as my son is concerned, whom Safet Sejdic

11     mentioned, they destroyed the monument to him.  Safet Sejdic might have

12     fared even worse than me, because they also mistreated him badly and beat

13     him up a lot, these same men, and Sejdic's mother, Razija, told me about

14     that.  So Sejdic, because of the beatings, had to spend a couple of

15     months in hospital and barely survived.  After such bad beatings which

16     Sejdic survived, I'm not surprised at the way he's testifying."

17             So there you have it.  Miroslav Spiric claims that you were

18     brutally beaten and mistreated and that your mother, Razija, told him

19     about that, herself.  Is that true and correct?

20        A.   Are you trying to congratulate me, to calm me down in this way,

21     reading this out?

22        Q.   Why should I try to calm you down?  I'm not a psychiatrist.  I'm

23     here to cross-examine you.

24        A.   I know, but why would Spiric stay on in Semizovac if he was in

25     the Serb Army and if he was one of the main people there?  Why would he

Page 8271

 1     stay on?

 2        Q.   Because the peace agreement was signed and he expected the

 3     situation to return to normal.  He did not commit any crime or anything

 4     else, so why would he be afraid?

 5        A.   But if he knew that his son had committed that act, how could he

 6     stay on there, just like I could not remain there had I done whatever on

 7     the Muslim side?  Nobody would want to take me in.

 8        Q.   His son was killed in the war.  You mentioned his son, and he was

 9     killed during the war.

10        A.   I know that Nebojsa Spiric was killed and that he was quite

11     aggressive, both before the war and during the war.  For his father to be

12     able to stay on there after that, I don't know how that was possible.

13        Q.   Why wouldn't his father be able to stay on there?

14        A.   Well, everybody knows why.

15        Q.   Why?

16        A.   Because he was a criminal before the war and he was a criminal

17     during the war.

18        Q.   You mean his father?

19        A.   No, his son.

20        Q.   Why does Miroslav Spiric, his father -- well, everything you're

21     saying about his son is not true, but that's not important now.  Now,

22     what would the reason be for Miroslav Spiric not to be able to stay in

23     Vogosca, where his son's grave is located and where his house is located?

24     Why wouldn't he stay in Vogosca?

25        A.   Well, a Serb would always defend a Serb and go with a Serb.  A

Page 8272

 1     Serb wouldn't stay on with the Muslims.

 2        Q.   He wanted to stay, but they beat him up?

 3        A.   Well, I can say that I wanted to stay with the Muslims, but I

 4     didn't, which means --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The witness explained several

 7     times why Mr. Spiric's father could not stay.  The question is being put

 8     to him repetitively, and I raise an objection here.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Witness, I was listening

10     to you, and a small detail seems to crop up in this statement made by

11     your neighbour, Miroslav Spiric.  He states that he was beaten by the

12     Muslim Army, he was beaten as well as his wife, and he is saying this,

13     and he doesn't seem to be the only one.  Seemingly, his wife also says

14     so.  But he adds a small detail which may have escaped most of you, but I

15     noted it down.  He says that you were also beaten and you had to spend

16     some months in hospital after that.  So is it true that you did spend

17     months in hospital or is he lying, is it false?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know,

19     well, this statement -- I mean, I know his father, but what he's saying

20     here, that I was in the hospital, that I was not in hospital, I was at

21     home, when I was beaten up, when the lines fell and whatever, and what

22     they are saying about him and his wife, that he was beaten so badly, I

23     don't know.  I wasn't there, so I cannot know about that.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you were not

25     beaten by the Muslim forces.  Very well, but my question is the

Page 8273

 1     following:  Did you go to the hospital, yes or no?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             Proceed, please, Mr. Seselj.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Where were you in May 1996?

 7        A.   In May 1996?  I don't know what kind of a question this is, where

 8     I was in May 1996.

 9        Q.   The question is a very nice one.  I'll have to repeat it.  Where

10     were you in May 1996?

11        A.   What does this question mean, who, what, why?

12        Q.   Where were you in May 1996?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in May 1996, it's true

14     that if I was asked the same question, I would not know where I was, I

15     would be unable to answer, but you might have a better memory than I do.

16     So answer the question, please.  He is asking you where you were in May

17     1996.  Answer the question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall the exact date.

19     Where was I in May 1996?  I guess it was the end of the war, and I was on

20     the Muslim side in Semizovac.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   In May 1996, you were in hospital; isn't that right?

23        A.   What hospital?

24        Q.   Well, some hospital.

25        A.   As far as I can remember, I wasn't.

Page 8274

 1        Q.   You weren't?

 2        A.   I wasn't.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Could you please be so kind as to

 4     take this photograph that accompanies this document.  Perhaps this one is

 5     better than the other one.  I expect my associates to send the original

 6     colour photograph by e-mail and that Mr. Doraiswamy is going to get this.

 7     I hope that my associates are following this and that they will send it

 8     during the next break.

 9        Q.   Do you remember this photograph?

10        A.   Yes, I do remember.

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] If we could have the colour copy

12     later on, maybe we could wait for it, because it would be more legible.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't know what colour would

14     add to this.  We have a group of people here with weapons, a group of men

15     with weapons.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Sejdic said that he remembered

18     this photograph.

19        Q.   Do you recognise yourself in this photograph?

20        A.   I do recognise myself in this photograph.  I'm the first one here

21     in civilian clothing.

22        Q.   The first one on the right-hand side?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You're holding an automatic rifle in your hand; right?

25        A.   Yes.  They gave it to me so that they could take a picture of me.

Page 8275

 1     If that were to mean that it was the end of the war, if they didn't have

 2     time to kill me, then they would have the Muslims kill me.

 3        Q.   So they took that kind of picture of you on purpose in order to

 4     stigmatize you before the Muslims?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did they expect the Serbian forces to leave Ilijas, Vogosca and

 7     Ilidza, and did they expect the entire population to leave, and did they

 8     expect the Muslim Army to come there?

 9        A.   Well, if they expected that, that means that if they left

10     documents and pictures of this kind, they wanted to leave all sorts of

11     things against me because I knew a lot about them.

12        Q.   Why would they lie anything about you when you were a hero in the

13     Serb Army?

14        A.   That's not true.  I was just a hero if I carried your stuff.

15     That's why they called me "Hero."

16        Q.   So you were a type of hero of socialist labour; isn't that right?

17        A.   I don't know what that means, "socialist."  What does "socialist"

18     mean?

19        Q.   Socialist labour, volunteer work for the community without

20     remuneration.

21        A.   As far as I know, it wasn't voluntary.

22        Q.   Why did you need an automatic rifle, then, for this work?  Were

23     you cleaning the dust with this rifle or what?

24        A.   Take a careful look at this rifle, whether it's been given to me

25     loaded or not.  Can you see a clip?

Page 8276

 1        Q.   You can see a clip here.

 2        A.   Well, you can see better, then.  Are there bullets in that rifle?

 3     Did they give that kind of rifle to me?  What do you think?

 4        Q.   Well, we saw from your father's statement that later on you were

 5     even given an M-84, issued with one.

 6        A.   As far as I pointed out in my own statements, I carried

 7     Jankovic's weapon, not my own.  It wasn't my own.  This is who was

 8     carrying an M-84, Jovan Colakovic, he's right next to me, and he told me

 9     a thousand times, and he hit me and he shouted at me, saying what I was

10     supposed to do.

11        Q.   He hit you, and you stand next to him to have your picture taken?

12        A.   Well, I'm not going to stand next to my mother and father and

13     have my picture taken.

14        Q.   Why would you stand next to the man who hit you?  No one ever

15     laid a finger on you.  What about karate, martial arts?  Aren't you well

16     versed in that?

17        A.   That's a lie too.  You're lying again.

18        Q.   Yes, I'm lying.  I'm the only one here who is lying.  At least

19     that is something here we all concur on, the Trial Chamber, the OTP and

20     myself.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, no, there is no

22     consensus, and I will state it over and over again.

23             Witness, you are telling us that you're in civilian clothes and

24     bearing a weapon.  This Jankovic, is it the person on your right, if I'm

25     not mistaken?  I believe so.

Page 8277

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is Colakovic.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where is this Jankovic person

 3     on the picture?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think Jankovic is not here.

 5     These are his soldiers who had their picture taken in front of the

 6     Command.  This is the platoon, his platoon and -- well, where the trucks

 7     were, the trucks.  It was something like the rolling stock or whatever it

 8     was called.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Jankovic is not on

10     the picture?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jankovic is not in the photograph.

12     I think he was at the Command then.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On this photograph, I see that

14     you are dressed in plain clothes, but I also note, as far as the others

15     are concerned, some are in camouflage dress, others in less obvious

16     clothes.  None have any headgear, except for the very -- for one at the

17     very back of the picture with a helmet.  We note that all members of this

18     group seem quite young.  Most carry weapons, except for the first one,

19     but we can't see very well.  He doesn't seem to have any weapons, just a

20     tripod for a machine-gun, but you can't see it.

21             According to what you're saying, the weapon that you are bearing

22     was not loaded?

23             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.  You have

25     ten minutes before the break.

Page 8278

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, there's

 2     something that might have escaped me.  You might have already said this,

 3     but I would like to know whether -- where and when this photograph was

 4     taken, if you remember this.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph was taken in front

 6     of the Command in Semizovac, facing Kulin Dvor, where the rolling stock

 7     was.  That is where the picture was taken, and that is when Jovan

 8     Colakovic, the man standing right next to me with this automatic rifle,

 9     84 -- I mean the 84 one, that's what they call it.  He has these

10     bandoliers on and this rifle.  He personally brought me there and put the

11     rifle in my rifle so that that is how I would have my picture taken.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you give us a date, if you

13     remember?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember exactly.  I think

15     it was towards the end of the war.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This photograph was taken the spring of 1994; isn't that right,

19     Mr. Sejdic?

20        A.   I don't know exactly, as I've pointed out just now.  Towards the

21     end of the war, that's when it was taken.

22        Q.   You have military trousers on and boots?

23        A.   No.  These are rubber boots and old, dirty jeans, and a sort of

24     T-shirt or shirt.  It was dirty as well.  You can see that.

25        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, why would this group of soldiers force you to have

Page 8279

 1     their picture taken with you; in order to embellish their picture or

 2     what?

 3        A.   Well, they knew that I would come here or whatever, wherever some

 4     day.  They wanted to prove the opposite.

 5        Q.   Since you were an ethnic Roma, the only one in that unit, were

 6     there any Croats in that unit?

 7        A.   I don't know exactly.

 8        Q.   Do you remember Ninoslav Kaurinovic?

 9        A.   Kaurinovic was a Croat, but he was not there then.

10        Q.   Ninoslav Kaurinovic is the person who kept this photograph, and

11     he sent it to me.  Now we are going to see what his statement says.

12             Could we please have document number 6 now.

13             He came to Belgrade --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, are you going to

15     ask for this photograph to be tendered?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Judge.  You know that I'm not

17     going to tender anything.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will consult my

19     fellow Judges to see whether this photograph could be a Bench exhibit.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could we please have

22     a number for this photograph as a Bench exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit

24     number C2.

25             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we make sure that Mr. Seselj

Page 8280

 1     also gives us the colour photograph.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, if we have a colour copy,

 3     that would be even better.

 4             Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No need, since the witness

 6     recognised the photograph, there's no need for me to provide a better

 7     one.

 8        Q.   Please, this is very brief, and I hope we're going to deal with

 9     it by the time the break begins.  Ninoslav Kaurinovic, son of Ante, a

10     Croat, a Roman Catholic, and he came to Belgrade to make a statement on

11     behalf of my Defence, because he wants the truth to be told.  He made

12     some comments with regard to some of the things you said during the

13     examination-in-chief.  He says for himself:

14             "I was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska from the moment

15     the Semizovac Battalion was established.  I was a soldier of the

16     2nd Squad of the 2nd Platoon of the Semizovac Company or the 5th

17     Semizovac Battalion."

18             Is that correct?

19        A.   I think that the man who made this statement was not there all

20     the time because he was crazy.

21        Q.   He was what?

22        A.   He was crazy.  He was sort of not right in the head.

23        Q.   Why was he not right in the head; because he was in the

24     Serb Army?

25        A.   No, he was that way before the war.

Page 8281

 1        Q.   Do you have proof of that?

 2        A.   How could I have proof of that?

 3        Q.   On the basis of what do you assess that someone is crazy or not

 4     right in the head?

 5        A.   Because that's the way he always behaved, and I'm surprised that

 6     he is making a statement and saying that he knows everything.  He was

 7     there like a crazy man, you know.

 8        Q.   Well, this is what Ninoslav Kaurinovic says:

 9             "I know that my neighbours, Semka Zukic and her daughter, were

10     never brought into custody or detained, and that throughout the war they

11     were in Semizovac.  Semka worked as a waitress at the Social Centre of

12     Semizovac."

13             So she is challenging what you said:

14             "I know for sure that the soldiers and officers from our unit

15     were not in any way linked to the killing of civilians, which I confirm

16     with full responsibility, and I know personally that Commander

17     Rajko Jankovic, his deputy Nenad Kuzmanovic, and the security man,

18     Rajko Rajic, protected them and took care of them.  As an inhabitant of

19     Semizovac and as a soldier, I know with certainty that Vaske Vidovic

20     never entered any one of the buildings of the prison in Vogosca.  I've

21     lived in Semizovac since I was born, and I know that there were never any

22     mosques in Semizovac and Kamenica.  As for the fighting that took place

23     at the Niksic Plateau that I participated in as well, I can only say that

24     we participated just in the fighting around the village of Zubet.  This

25     happened at the beginning of November 1993 around Mitrovdan, and I

Page 8282

 1     remember that Srdjan Maunaga got killed and that Ranko Simic,

 2     Jovan Colakovic and Safet Sejdic were prominent in that battle."

 3             Is this true?

 4        A.   I have no idea.

 5        Q.   Who destroyed the mosque in Semizovac?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, half of them were destroyed by planes

 7     and the other half by Vaske.

 8        Q.   You see that Ninoslav Kaurinovic says that in Semizovac, there

 9     were never any mosques?

10        A.   Well, see for yourself whether there is a mosque there and

11     whether there was ever a mosque there.  You can check.

12        Q.   They say that there was never a mosque in Semizovac, and the

13     Prosecutor can check that, since you are a Prosecution witness.  They can

14     check that out and they can give you information by tomorrow.

15        A.   Well, Ninoslav Kaurinovic, had he written this, since he lived in

16     Semizovac for so many years, he would have known that there is a mosque

17     in Svrake and that there was always a mosque in Svrake.

18        Q.   In Svrake, yes, it is almost an exclusively Muslim village, but

19     in Semizovac there was never a mosque, and that is what I claim too.

20        A.   Well, I don't know, Semizovac, Svrake, all of that was under

21     Vogosca.  Semizovac was just there across the bridge.

22        Q.   Semizovac and Svrake are two separate local communes in the

23     municipality of Vogosca; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Separate local communes.  In Svrake, there was a mosque; in

Page 8283

 1     Semizovac, there was never a mosque.  And you said that an aeroplane

 2     destroyed the mosque in Semizovac and that it was polished off by

 3     Vaske Vidovic?

 4        A.   Semizovac, well, I grew up there.  As a child, I knew of

 5     Semizovac and Svrake.  It's one and the same thing.

 6        Q.   Oh, please, Mr. Sejdic.  As for the village of Svrake, you

 7     praised it during the examination-in-chief.  You even referred to it as a

 8     town.  I even thought it was a metropolis.  Didn't you say here that it

 9     was your native town, that you always considered it to be a town, that it

10     looked like a town?  It's in the transcripts.

11        A.   I lived in the village of Svrake, but I did point out that I was

12     born in Visoko.

13        Q.   It doesn't matter where you were born.  What is important is that

14     in Semizovac there was never a mosque, and you claimed that there was a

15     mosque and then that it was destroyed, first by an aeroplane and then

16     finished off by Vaske Vidovic.

17        A.   Svrake and Semizovac is one and the same thing for me, and I

18     don't know how to treat it in a different way.  I don't know how to point

19     this out.  It was my own village.  Semizovac, Svrake, Vogosca, that's

20     where I lived, that's where I grew up, and I knew that there was a mosque

21     in Svrake.

22        Q.   Well, I could say, for me, Addis Ababa and Kuala Lumpur are one

23     in the same thing.

24        A.   Well, I am not a politician, like you are.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber did not go on

Page 8284

 1     the field.  Normally, Trial Chambers go on the field, and we might go.

 2     But there's one point that you might shed light on immediately.

 3     Semizovac and Svrake, are these two villages that are side by side and

 4     that make up a single locality, or between -- is there any distance

 5     between Semizovac and Svrake?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, that's another matter, that's a

 7     different question.  From Semizovac to Svrake is just 100 metres or so.

 8     The village was called "Svrake," and the local commune of -- was

 9     Semizovac.  It had its own local commune, and the village of Svrake had

10     its own local commune.  And the mosque was in Svrake village, so

11     everybody was there in Semizovac from Semizovac, the Serb paramilitaries.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's take a break.

13     It is 10.00.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before the break, could you

15     instruct the Prosecutor to find, in these many statements by

16     Safet Sejdic, there are five in all -- to locate in which of his

17     statements Safet Sejdic talks about Ratko Mladic, Karadzic and me and our

18     meeting on the eve of the attack on Niksic plateau and Crna Rijeka.  As

19     the witness during the examination-in-chief said that he stated that in

20     all his statements, the Prosecutor didn't wish to remind him in which

21     particular statement.  Now, since I didn't find this in any of his

22     statements, could you instruct the Prosecution to find that in those

23     statements?  And it can even be deducted from my time.  I'm willing to

24     have it deducted from my time, but I want them to find what statement

25     that appears in.

Page 8285

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last week, just before the

 2     hearing ended, the witness told us that he had seen Mr. Seselj on this

 3     plateau with Karadzic and Mladic, but the accused told us that he did not

 4     see this in any statement.  Was this said, in fact, or did you see this

 5     during the weekend?

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have to wonder why, and I insist

 7     on this, that it is not up to us to prepare Mr. Seselj's

 8     cross-examination, it's up to him.  This is something that has to be very

 9     clear here.  I, in fact, put the question as to when he had said this the

10     first time, and the witness gave us an answer, and that was the end of

11     that.  And now it's up to Mr. Seselj to review all the documents and to

12     see by himself.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 10.00, 10.15, actually.

14     Mr. Seselj, you've used up 53 minutes so far, so unless I'm mistaken, you

15     will have one hour and seven minutes left.  Unless I am mistaken, that's

16     what I say.

17             And I will first ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the

18     courtroom before we take a break, and the Trial Chamber will withdraw for

19     20 minutes.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             Very well.  So the Trial Chamber will resume the hearing at

22     10.25.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.04 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please, let's have

Page 8286

 1     the witness in.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In the meantime, we

 4     were able to get the picture in colour, and we notice that the witness

 5     wore boots, a blue pair of trousers and a white shirt whereas most of the

 6     other people on the photo were wearing a camouflage uniform, with the

 7     exception of two people who wore a blue outfit.  This is what this colour

 8     picture was able to show us.

 9             Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would it be possible

11     to replace the colour picture with the black-and-white picture?  Maybe

12     it's done automatically, or the other way around.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, very well.

14     Mr. Registrar, could you please give us a number for the colour picture,

15     C3.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number C3.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Leave the photograph there, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, do you know the names of all these soldiers on the

21     photograph?

22        A.   Yes, I do, but I can't remember all of them just now.  I know

23     them all, though.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, can you point to Sladjan Okilj?

25        A.   Sladjan Okilj?

Page 8287

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   That's Sladjan Okilj, is it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He was killed; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know when he was killed?

 8        A.   In 1993, I think.

 9        Q.   So he died on the 24th of October, 1993; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So the photograph was taken before his death; right?  In the

12     summer of 1993, in fact; right?

13        A.   I don't know exactly when he was killed, the actual moment, but

14     this photograph was taken towards the end of the war, and I said "1994."

15        Q.   You said that this was towards the end of the war, and the war

16     ended in 1995.  Here we see Sladjan Okilj, he was alive and well, and was

17     killed on the 24th of October, 1993.  Therefore, this photograph must

18     have been taken before the death of Sladjan Okilj.  It was, in fact,

19     taken in 1993 and not towards the end of the war?

20        A.   I didn't say towards the end of the war.  I said "1994."  I

21     emphasise this.  I didn't know the exact date.

22        Q.   Well, a moment ago you said the photograph was taken towards the

23     end of the war and that they took the photograph and put you there to

24     compromise you in the eyes of the Muslim authorities?

25        A.   Yes, just as you, "tu," said a moment ago that I was wearing a

Page 8288

 1     uniform, and that's not what we see here.

 2        Q.   Please, I'm warning you once again to behave yourself and not

 3     address me with "tu," but "vous."  And if the Trial Chamber doesn't want

 4     to tell you how to behave, then I have to.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I noticed that the

 6     interpreters were saying "tu" at some point, so I guess you spoke to

 7     Mr. Seselj by telling him "tu."  So please tell him "vous," and that will

 8     avoid any further problems.  But I also notice that the picture was not

 9     taken after the month of October 1993.  It also seems almost certainly

10     that this picture was taken during the summer, because you yourself are

11     not wearing very warm clothes, so we can just imagine that this picture

12     was taken from May to September, maybe even all the way through to

13     October.

14             Very well, please proceed.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a minor point.

16     If Mr. Seselj has a document testifying about the death of the person we

17     are talking about, it would be perhaps better to shed some light on us.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you told us that

19     the soldier that we see here in the foreground in blue was killed on the

20     24th of October, 1993.  You must base this on some facts.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, didn't the witness

22     confirm that?  He said "October 1993."  Then I reminded him and said,

23     "The 24th of October," and he confirmed that it was the 24th of October,

24     1993.  And now, instead of the Prosecution conducting an investigation,

25     which it is duty-bound to do, it should have tested the credibility of

Page 8289

 1     all the witness statements beforehand.  Now they're asking me to conduct

 2     an investigation.  He was killed on the 24th of October, 1993.  That is

 3     an indisputable fact.  Anybody else claiming differently has to prove it.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Proceed.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So the photograph was taken before Okilj was killed, so it

 7     couldn't have been taken in 1996, just prior to the departure of the

 8     Serb Army from these territories.  It couldn't have been taken in 1995,

 9     either, or in 1994, as you're trying to say now and correct yourself.

10     The photograph must have been taken in 1993; right, Mr. Sejdic?

11        A.   Mr. Seselj, as far as this photograph is concerned, as far as I

12     know, 1993, the end of 1993, going on to 1994, that's what I said in the

13     first place.

14             And, secondly, the photograph that you "tu" or, rather, you

15     "vous" are saying about this man having been killed, I stressed a moment

16     ago that he was killed then, but I don't remember, myself, what I had to

17     eat when, let alone this photograph, because I didn't only have to think

18     about a photograph at the time, I had to think about my life and the

19     danger to me.

20        Q.   We see here that you still had a work assignment, work duty, not

21     a military duty, but you had this photograph taken with the

22     Semizovac Battalion, the elite battalion?

23        A.   Yes, but you said that I was a member of the army and that I

24     took -- was taken with them, and there you have the evidence, you said.

25        Q.   Well, we've already established that I'm the biggest liar in this

Page 8290

 1     courtroom, and I couldn't see what I see now in the black-and-white

 2     photograph.  But I have my associates, and they showed me --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please don't say

 4     that.  This is completely inappropriate.

 5             Witness, we see 20 people on this picture.  Were there other

 6     people who were killed from this picture?  If you know, tell us.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zvonko Maric was killed.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were saying "this person."

 9     You have to show it to us with a stick, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  And another of them

11     was killed.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With the pen, could you please

13     put a cross above the person who was killed?

14             THE WITNESS:  [Marks] [Interpretation] Do you want me to cross

15     this out, the one I mentioned a moment ago?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, please.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So three were killed, as far as

19     you can remember.

20             Can we have another number, please.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The annotated photograph will

22     be Exhibit number C4.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, please

24     proceed.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 8291

 1        Q.   What did you say these two soldiers' names were, the ones that

 2     were killed?

 3        A.   This one was called Zekic or something like that, Zeko or Zekic,

 4     and the other one was called --

 5        Q.   You said Zvonko Maric?

 6        A.   Yes, Zvonko.

 7        Q.   When were they killed?

 8        A.   I don't know the exact date, but after Okilj.

 9        Q.   So we're talking about 1993 now?  You're not challenging that

10     anymore now, are you?

11        A.   I don't know the exact date, as I said.

12        Q.   All right.  We're not talking about a specific date.  We're

13     talking about the year.  It was before October 1993?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.  It could be 1994.

15        Q.   Well, how could it be 1994 if Sladjan Okilj was killed in 1993?

16        A.   Well, he was killed before, before them.

17        Q.   But he's on the photograph too.  You don't assume that somebody

18     brought in Dragan Okilj dead here to take a photograph of him in 1994,

19     God forbid?

20        A.   I stress that he was killed afterwards, after the others.  The

21     question was whether any other people were killed after him.

22        Q.   The question was:  Is it -- is there no doubt that the photograph

23     was taken in 1993?

24        A.   But the question was whether I knew anybody else who was killed.

25        Q.   We've dealt with that.  You recognised two other fighters who

Page 8292

 1     were killed?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So is it indubitable that the photograph is 1993, was taken in

 4     1993?

 5        A.   I stressed this again, I said it a thousand times.  I said the

 6     end of 1993, going on to 1994, and I can't remember everything exactly.

 7     That is my answer.

 8        Q.   All right, fine.  But is it true and correct that this

 9     photograph, then --

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

11             Mr. Seselj asked you, Witness, at one point if it is true that

12     Okilj was killed in October of 1993.  Unless the transcript is faulty,

13     you've answered, "Yes."  Now you say, "I don't know."  I would like to

14     know if you know, "yes" or "no," if that person was killed in the month

15     of October 1993, because you did say, "Yes," at some point earlier.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me that question?

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, sir, Witness, this question

18     is for you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said 1993, going on to 1994.

20     I can't remember exactly, but thereabouts.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see that

22     my colleague wanted to take the floor.

23             I would like it to be clear on the audio, and we can verify this,

24     when Mr. Seselj put the question to you as to whether it is true that he

25     was killed in October of 1993, you said, "Yes," and then after that you

Page 8293

 1     said that you don't remember.  But at one point in time earlier, you

 2     answered by saying, "Yes."  So listen carefully to the questions that are

 3     put to you, because there are some discrepancies now and this has a

 4     certain bearing on the credibility.  So please try to be more careful and

 5     be precise.  Be careful when you listen to the questions and be precise

 6     when answering.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, just a moment,

 8     please.  A brief intervention.

 9             The first time I asked the witness when Sladjan Okilj was killed.

10     The witness said in October 1993.  Then I went on to ask him, "Was that

11     on the 24th of October, 1993?"  So October 1993 was a date first

12     mentioned by the witness and then by me.  So the witness answered

13     correctly.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Sejdic, I think we can conclude that this

15     photo was taken sometime before the 24th of October, and I'm not sure

16     that we can get any further, but I have another question relating to the

17     picture, because I see that the combatants here on this photo, they're

18     all wearing a red band on their right shoulder.  And my question is if

19     you know what this red piece of ribbon or band signified.  You can see on

20     the picture that they all have, on their right shoulder, a piece of red

21     ribbon.  What is the significance of that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.  It was placed

23     on the right shoulder when they were going to the Intervention Platoon,

24     into an attack, that they could be distinguished by these bands or

25     ribbons, and if anything happened during the night, that they could be

Page 8294

 1     recognised.  They could recognise each other by these bands or ribbons

 2     and they would be able to recognise members of their unit which would

 3     have this mark.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, may I be of assistance?

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just a minute.

 6             Mr. Sejdic, was the red ribbon only for this unit or were there

 7     other units carrying a similar ribbon?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other units used this when they

 9     went into an attack, the same ribbons.  They would have different

10     ribbons, actually; sometimes yellow, sometimes blue, sometimes red.  The

11     colours would change.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, unfortunately on this

13     photograph we don't see if you, yourself, had this ribbon, because the

14     weapon is hiding your right shoulder, so we can't see it.  From memory,

15     can you tell us if you as well wore the ribbon?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on that day.  But when we went

17     into an attack, then they would put this on my shoulder, please, when --

18     my shoulder as well, this ribbon, so that somebody wouldn't kill me from

19     amongst our fighters.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, to avoid any

21     mystification over the bands or ribbons, they were important so that on

22     the battle front, Serb soldiers could be distinguished from the Muslim

23     soldiers, because the uniforms might have been exactly the same, that was

24     the only reason.  And then the ribbons were changed, for example, "We're

25     going into action today.  We're going to have red ribbons, then blue,

Page 8295

 1     then yellow."  So these ribbons would be changed so that they -- you

 2     could distinguish your own soldier and avoid friendly fire.

 3             From Vaske's unit, a soldier was killed in friendly fire.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, how do you know this?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm an expert in military

 6     matters, Judge, sir.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is that so?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, truly.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I am noting that Mr. Seselj is

11     testifying, basically.  I would like you to ask the witness to put some

12     letters on the picture.  So now we only have circles.  In a month or two,

13     we won't know who's who, and maybe it would be useful to have letters.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have three circles on this

15     picture.  Witness, put a name -- Adil is the first one, so please put,

16     yourself, the names of the people, and then a new number will be given to

17     this exhibit.

18             THE WITNESS:  [Marks] [Interpretation] So that's right, you want

19     the exact name?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  You can write it down.

21             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now it's in blue, so we can't

23     really read carefully.  You can say it, and then we will compare it to

24     the transcript.

25             What is the first name, please?

Page 8296

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is "Sladjan Okilj" or

 2     whatever -- Okilj, anyway [indicates].

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okilj, Sladjan.  Very well.

 4     The second name?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zvonko Blazevic.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Zvonko Blazevic.  Very well.

 7     And the third name?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zekic, Zeko.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Zekic, Zeko.  Very well.  Can

10     we please have a new number?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the second annotated photograph

12     will be Exhibit number C5.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             Mr. Seselj.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, can you see on this photograph that these soldiers

17     are not all wearing the same uniforms?

18        A.   Yes, I can see that.

19        Q.   That means that people wore what they found?

20        A.   Yes, what they were given, what uniforms they were given.

21        Q.   And is this an M-84, the machine-gun called "Death sower," the

22     one next-door to you?

23        A.   Yes, that's your worst soldier, Jovan Colakovic.

24        Q.   Come on, Mr. Sejdic, don't talk that way.  They're your friends

25     here.

Page 8297

 1        A.   They're not my friends, Mr. Seselj.  As far as I know, I was

 2     beaten most by this man and he threatened me most, and he put the rifle

 3     in my hand to have the photograph taken.

 4        Q.   So that the Muslim authorities could persecute you afterwards?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In 1993?

 7        A.   To the end of the war.

 8        Q.   Well, maybe that was the case.

 9        A.   That was the case.

10        Q.   All right.  You're telling the truth and I'm lying.  Anyway, you

11     were a member of the Work Platoon as well when you were taken on this

12     photograph here?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that Work Platoon of yours numbered 25 men, as far as I

15     remember.  Right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So why did they select you from this whole Work Platoon to have

18     your picture taken with them?

19        A.   They called me to the Command to load up the ammunition.

20        Q.   But why did they ask you to join them in having their photograph

21     taken and give you a rifle?

22        A.   Well, you ask your man Jovan Colakovic why.

23        Q.   Because, Mr. Sejdic, I've already asked him, because everybody

24     liked you in the unit, and soon after that you became a member of the

25     unit?

Page 8298

 1        A.   You say they liked me?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Well, then why did they mistreat me and beat me and threaten to

 4     rape my wife and kill my children?

 5        Q.   Nobody mistreated you, nobody beat you, and nobody threatened

 6     you.  You've invented all that to justify, before the Muslim authorities,

 7     your participation in the war on the Serb side.

 8        A.   That's not true.  Had they liked me, they would have let me go,

 9     together with my Muslims, but they held me prisoner for all those years

10     and mistreated and tortured me.

11        Q.   But as you say, your Muslims sent you away from Korita?

12        A.   Well, you don't keep saying "your Muslims."  I was a Roma,

13     belonged to the Roma ethnicity, the Roma population, and the Roma were

14     not involved in the war at all.  And if you asked us, we didn't have our

15     state, we didn't have our representative, we didn't have anybody to lead

16     us.  We were slaves from times immemorial, if you're interested.

17        Q.   The Serbs were the only people in the whole of the Balkans who

18     were friendly towards the Roma and never persecuted them; right?

19        A.   Well, yeah, because when it was World War II, Hitler persecuted

20     the Serbs and the Jews all in one whole, so -- and gypsies were added

21     here.

22        Q.   Well, we never persecuted the Roma or the gypsies, as you call

23     them.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down.  It is

25     impossible to translate at this speed.  Thank you.

Page 8299

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  The

 2     interpreters are having trouble following you.  You are going too fast.

 3             Regarding this problem that the Chamber is hearing about, the

 4     Roma or Muslims, before the war, before 1991-1992, did you ever feel that

 5     you were discriminated by someone, as a Roma?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I went to school, the

 7     children always called me "Gypsy, Roma."  My faith cannot be different.

 8     I am the person who I am.  I follow my faith and I live with my faith,

 9     just like everybody else, so I lived the same way.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, religion-wise, and you

11     don't have to answer this question if you don't want to - I'm only asking

12     this as an information - do you have a religion or not?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm of the Muslim faith.  "Safet"

16     is my name.  It's a Muslim name that my great-grandfather had and my

17     grandfather.  I don't know -- this has been the case since time

18     immemorial.  I don't know it was 50 or 70 or 100 years ago, we were all

19     over the world, we the Roma.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But in the former Yugoslavia,

21     all Romas, were they like you, of Muslim faith, or were there any Romas

22     who were Catholics or Orthodox, or were you mainly of Muslim faith?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we're not all Muslims.  The

24     there are some of us who are Catholics and Serbs and Jews and Muslims.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

Page 8300

 1     clarification.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, where did you attend elementary school?

 5        A.   In Semizovac, the Ribar Brothers was the name of the school.

 6        Q.   I see.  Since you had these problems before the war because of

 7     your ethnicity, were you ever in a position to have to declare yourself

 8     as a Bosniak as well?

 9        A.   I don't know where you come up with questions like that.  First

10     you listen to all of this about my previous life, and now you come up

11     with this, that the Muslims hated me, attacked me, whatever, this and

12     that.  I stated this, what I did; that is to say, that if I belonged to

13     the Roma population, I could not have been a different person.  I am the

14     person I am, and I will remain the same person.

15        Q.   Please be so kind as to answer my question.  Since you were not

16     coerced, did you feel a need to declare yourself as a Bosniak by

17     ethnicity?

18        A.   What else can I be but a Bosniak?  What else can I be if I'm

19     called "Safet Sejdic"?

20        Q.   Wait a second.  Nowadays, the Bosniaks are the Bosnian Muslims

21     who are of Serb origin, but of Muslim faith.  But you're a Roma by

22     ethnicity.  You're not a Serb, you're not a Croat or a Bosniak.  You're a

23     Roma; right?  The Roma are a reputable ethnicity that was seriously

24     persecuted throughout history, but they also gave a considerable

25     contribution to European culture.  There is not a single European culture

Page 8301

 1     that the Roma did not contribute to.

 2        A.   Your Honour, Judge, I think that I pointed out a few moments ago

 3     in relation to the question that he's putting now.  If I said that I'm a

 4     Roma by ethnicity, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, rather -- I

 5     don't even know, I wasn't even born then, they were under the authority

 6     of the Muslim people, they were under the authority of the Serb people.

 7     Then they would be Serbs.  If did they were under the authority of the

 8     Croats, they would have been Croats.  So I'm saying the way we were, and

 9     then I said what my grandfather's last name is, so I bear that last name,

10     as my father does.

11        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, please be so kind as to answer my questions.  I'm not

12     challenging that your father was an honourable man, that your grandfather

13     was an honourable man.  All of that is well and fine.  I'm asking you:

14     How come that you were in a position a few years after the war to declare

15     yourself as a Bosniak by ethnicity, that is to say, to push aside the

16     fact that you're a Roma?  And I think that there is nothing bad about

17     that, a person being a Roma, just if he's a good and honourable man.  Why

18     did you push that aside and why did you declare yourself as a Bosniak?

19     Why did you have to do that?

20        A.   Because all the Roma predominantly in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- well,

21     I mean, we've already discussed this.  Some were Serbs and some were

22     Croats and some were Jews and some were Muslims, some were Serbs.  I've

23     already answered this question.  I've said that my population at that

24     time was the way it was, and that's the way things remained.  We -- I

25     mean, my family -- how shall I put this?  The so-called gypsies, we had

Page 8302

 1     to do what the other Muslims did.

 2        Q.   Did you have to declare yourself as a Bosniak?

 3        A.   Well, if I'm a Bosniak, then I'm a Bosniak.

 4        Q.   Did you have to declare yourself to be one?

 5        A.   Well, I had to.  I'm a Bosniak, and I remain a Bosniak.  I'm a

 6     Muslim, and I remain a Muslim.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The question was put to the

 8     witness in a repetitive way.  The witness already explained to us that

 9     he's a Roma of Muslim faith, and I object that the same question be put

10     to the witness over and over again.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I'm not mistaken,

12     you said that your grandfather was Muslim.  What is interesting is to see

13     if originally your family, and tell us if you do know -- has your family

14     always been in that region or area of the world or did it come from

15     elsewhere?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, my family lived

17     in that village, Svrake, and in the village of Semizovac for years.  I

18     was born in 1969.  My grandfather and my relatives, of course, they were

19     born before, that is, before I was born.  They were always under Muslim

20     authority, and they had Muslim names and surnames, and that's the way

21     things remain to this day.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but going

23     back in time, the 19th century, 18th century, 17th century, was your

24     family always there or did they come from somewhere else?  Of course,

25     tell us only if you know it.  You may not know your family tree.

Page 8303

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know exactly about

 2     that, because at that time I wasn't even born, you see.  But when I

 3     listened to what my father had to say, and my grandfather, they say that

 4     officially our origins are in India.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So basically you would be

 6     originally from India.  All right.

 7             Mr. Seselj.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

 9     confirmed for me here what it was that I had insisted upon.  After the

10     war, he was in a position to declare himself as a Bosniak, although he

11     cannot be an ethnic Bosniak.  He's a Roma.  What I thought was necessary

12     was to show how he was discriminated against, along ethnic lines, after

13     the Dayton Agreement.  That was the core of my question.  Why would he

14     declare himself as belonging to a different ethnic group rather than what

15     his grandfathers had been for centuries?  This Bosniak ethnicity has not

16     been in existence ever, whereas the Roma have been in existence for

17     centuries.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: I have a question to ask the

19     witness on this.

20             Witness, please, as far as you know, are there people of Serb

21     ethnicity, of Croatian ethnicity, who lived in Bosnia after the war and

22     declared themselves Bosnian -- Bosniak, in the B/C/S meaning of the word,

23     "Bosniak" in B/C/S, because in French it would be what we call "Bosnien"

24     which is Bosniak in English, so were there any people of Serb or Croat

25     ethnicity who declared themselves "Bosnjaci"?

Page 8304

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean those who were Croats or

 2     Serbs after the war, that they were Bosniaks then, that they became

 3     Bosniaks, you mean?  Could this please be interpreted for me?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's try and clarify

 5     this, because it's complicated, because we have problems with translation

 6     of different concepts.

 7             For the Judges of the Bench, those we call "Bosnian," in French

 8     "Bosniak," are people of Muslim faith, and those which we call "Bosnian"

 9     in French or "Bosniak" in English, are those who have -- are citizens of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Therefore, you can be a Bosniak, while you're

11     Catholic, Orthodox or whatever, but when you're a Bosnian, it means that

12     you're of Muslim faith.  This is the parameters of the question.  So what

13     do you have to say to this?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is to say that the

15     Muslims call themselves the Bosniaks, and the Croats and the Serbs call

16     themselves -- well, I mean, if it's "Bosniak," I mean, of Croatian

17     nationality, then he belonged to Croatia.  If it's a Serb, then he

18     belonged to Serbia.  So that was it, that is what they were called.  But

19     if they lived in Bosnia, I mean there, then they call them "Bosniaks"

20     from time to time as well because they are the mainstay of that state.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Mr. Seselj, proceed.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Since obviously this topic is complicated for you regarding the

25     national and ethnic question, Mr. Sejdic, a few moments ago in

Page 8305

 1     cross-examination you said that you did not know this name nicknamed

 2     Kele, Dragan Galic, whereas he claims that you slept on two adjacent beds

 3     in the dormitory of the Intervention Battalion.  Do you still stand by

 4     this, that you don't know this Kele?

 5        A.   I stand by that.

 6        Q.   All right, Mr. Sejdic, that's well and fine that you stand by

 7     that.

 8             Could we now display the statement given by this witness to the

 9     OTP in 2006.  It is page 28, paragraph 112.

10             Are you in a position to do that?  I hope the Trial Chamber at

11     least has this statement.  If you have it, we don't have to put it on the

12     ELMO, the statement from 2006?

13             You say here:

14             "Together with me in the Intervention Battalion were

15     Makso Nikolic from Semizovac; Buco from Serbia, who was Rajko Koprivica's

16     son-in-law or brother-in-law; Peka, the former mailman in Semizovac;

17     Zvonko Blazevic, an ethnic Croat."  That's the Zvonko you showed a few

18     moments ago who got killed as well; right?  Zvonko Blazevic, did he get

19     killed?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   "... Sladjan Stevanovic from Semizovac; a certain Kele from

22     Visoko; and Ranko Simic, commander of the platoon."

23             In your statement, you refer to this Kele from Visoko, and now

24     you don't remember at all -- you do not remember Kele at all, and you

25     stand by that.  So in 2006, you did remember Kele, and that's what you

Page 8306

 1     said to the investigators, and now all of a sudden you no longer remember

 2     Kele.

 3             Have you found it?  It is page 28, paragraph 112.

 4             You have to take my document, then.  Well, there you go.  If the

 5     OTP doesn't want to do their own work, then -- 112 is the number of the

 6     paragraph.  The OTP really had --

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you chose to defend

 8     yourself, so you have to do all the work.  It's not the OTP that's

 9     supposed to do it.  If you had counsel, he would be doing the work for

10     you, but unfortunately as things stand now, you were supposed to do the

11     work yourself.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you suggesting to me that I

13     find myself a lawyer who would defend me better than I'm defending

14     myself, Madame Judge?

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Seselj.  You are

16     entitled to do so, but you must exercise this right in the best fashion

17     possible.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, I do my best, and I'm

19     not successful in what I'm doing my best in.  But if you have in mind a

20     capable lawyer who would defend me better than I am defending myself, I

21     would gladly look into your proposal or suggestion.

22             All right.  Have we got it on our screens now, the one-but-last

23     line?

24        Q.   A certain Kele from Visoko, you identified him as a member of

25     this Intervention Platoon, and now you don't remember him; right?

Page 8307

 1        A.   Maybe it's a different Kele.

 2        Q.   There was just one Kele?

 3        A.   Well, if there's just one Kele, then that's the Kele.  But you

 4     said that he slept with me, that he knew everything about me.  How would

 5     he not know if he was in the Intervention Platoon.

 6        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, I did not say that he slept with you.  I said that

 7     you slept on adjacent beds in the dormitory of the Intervention Platoon,

 8     and it was Kele who came from Visoko to Semizovac as a refugee on the

 9     17th of July, 1992, and in 1993, he became a member of the Intervention

10     Platoon, where you were one of the most prominent soldiers.  That is what

11     he says in his own statement, and you are saying that you don't know him

12     at all, and now you recognised him.  Thank you, thank you, so that we

13     don't spend more time on this.  Thank you for having recognised him.

14        A.   Let me tell you one thing, Mr. Seselj.  This Kele that you claim

15     I slept with, I mean, one bed next to the other.  See what you know.  You

16     are so pleased because you think that it's correct.

17        Q.   All right, it's not correct.  I accept what you're saying, that

18     it's not correct.

19        A.   And these statements, I don't know, on the basis of these

20     statements of mine, you've got these statements, and now, by way of

21     cross-examination through these statements, you are trying to put in all

22     sorts of stories, hearsay, this and that.  And where are all these

23     people?  Why were they not arrested?  If they committed these atrocities,

24     why weren't they arrested?  What kind of information are you getting?

25     People were saying Karadzic cannot be arrested, Mladic cannot be

Page 8308

 1     arrested.  You are the one who knows everything.  Why were they not

 2     arrested?

 3        Q.   I know everything about them, but I would rather lose my own life

 4     than help anyone capture Karadzic or Mladic.

 5        A.   If I could before this Court, and if my authorities would let me,

 6     but I would be willing to lay my own life down in order to have you put

 7     away.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well and fine.  Judges, you are

 9     listening to this, and you hear this witness threatening my life, and you

10     don't mind.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen you, too.  I came here

12     to make a statement.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You came here to testify.  The

14     procedure is as such:  The OTP calls witnesses, asks questions to these

15     witnesses, and the accused is also entitled to ask questions to the

16     witness.  If Judges were managing everything from beginning to end, this

17     would not occur in such a way.  But the Judges who devised this Tribunal

18     decided to opt for this solution, which is why we have to follow the

19     rule, even -- that's just the rule.  We have to play by it.

20             Mr. Seselj is entitled to ask questions of you, and you are

21     supposed to answer these questions.  That's the rule of the game.  We

22     cannot do anything about it.  And during cross-examination, he's entitled

23     to put questions to you, so please put your feelings aside and just

24     answer questions.

25             Mr. Seselj, proceed.

Page 8309

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, I'm a little frightened now.  I'm worried that you

 3     might not kill me -- actually kill me, so my voice might tremble from

 4     time to time.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this was useless,

 6     totally useless.  You're just adding to the problem.  Please proceed.

 7     Put questions and refrain from these type of comments, because this is

 8     only going to irk the witness and make him react.

 9             Proceed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  If I don't even have

11     the right to be afraid, what can I say?

12        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, we have observed that in this elite unit, the

13     Intervention Platoon of the Semizovac Battalion, there are at least three

14     men who weren't Serbs by ethnicity; you, a Roma, and two Croats.  Right?

15        A.   Yes, that is right.

16        Q.   One of the Croats was killed as a Serb fighter.  That was

17     Zvonko Blazevic.  And another Croat is now living in Split, and he came

18     to Belgrade to give me a statement.  His name is Ninoslav Kaurinovic.

19     That, nonetheless, testifies to the fact that there wasn't any ethnic

20     intolerance in the Serb Army.  The Serb Army fought for Republika Srpska

21     against the rift in Yugoslavia, but there was no ethnic intolerance?

22        A.   Judges, I apologise.  Now, can I ask a question?  What were the

23     Croats and the Serbs?  Did they have the same cross?

24        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, let's leave this matter of the crosses aside.  We're

25     not going to debate that point.

Page 8310

 1        A.   Well, if you say that the two of them -- that everybody was the

 2     same, not everybody could have been the same.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, do you know that in the Intervention Platoon of

 4     Vaske Vidovic from Ilijas, throughout the war there were two Muslims all

 5     the time?  Did you ever hear about that?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Well, do you believe me when I tell you that there were two

 8     Muslims?

 9        A.   Well, if they were there, I wasn't in Vaske's unit to know about

10     that.

11        Q.   But do you think I'm lying when I say that now?

12        A.   I don't know.  I'm not going to discuss that matter.

13        Q.   Let me show you, Mr. Sejdic.  I have here the original notebooks

14     of Vaske's platoon.

15             Now, could you display this page?  We've already had it shown in

16     court here, a photocopy of it.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document has already been

18     used.  Maybe you were not in the courtroom at the time, but we've already

19     seen this document.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The number is 37 and 38.  It says

21     Mujo Djafic and Fadil Djafic.  Show that to the witness, please.  Yes, on

22     the overhead projector.

23             Do we see that on the ELMO?  Do you see number 37 and 38, father

24     and son, Mujo Djafic and Fadil Djafic.

25        Q.   Can you see that?

Page 8311

 1        A.   Well, if I say I don't know about this, why are you showing it to

 2     me?

 3        Q.   Well, just to see that I might not be lying this time.

 4        A.   Well, if they decided, they must have decided about this, just

 5     like for me.

 6        Q.   Now, if I tell you, and I'm interested in your comment now, I put

 7     it to you and tell you that after the withdrawal of the Serb Army, Mujo

 8     and Faruk Djafic stayed on in Ilijas, that they were arrested by the

 9     Muslim authorities and beaten very brutally, and that Faruk Djafic, the

10     son, that is, soon afterwards succumbed to the wounds he sustained during

11     the beatings, and Mujo Djafic lived for a certain number of years and

12     died recently, would you believe me?

13        A.   Sir, I'm not for Mujo or for this other man.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] All right, you're not.  Now, madam,

15     you can hand those original notebooks to the Trial Chamber.  The Chetnik

16     Vojvoda, Vasilije Vidovic, with expressions of deep respect, is donating

17     that to you.  They are the -- as the Trial Chamber, they are the work

18     notebooks that you doubted existed.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.

20     You're giving us these notebooks.  The Trial Chamber should tender these

21     as Court exhibits.  Let me consult with my fellow Judges.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not proposing anything, Judges.

24     You can receive that as a souvenir.  You can give it to the Prosecutor to

25     test its authenticity or do what you will with it.

Page 8312

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Unless we have specific

 3     references, we cannot check whether we've already received a copy of

 4     these documents, and therefore I cannot make any submission as to their

 5     reliability and as to whether we object or not on their admission right

 6     here on the fly in the courtroom.  We need time to check all this, and if

 7     we don't have the document, we need a copy of the document from

 8     Mr. Seselj in order to check things and in order to make an informed

 9     decision when the documents will be tendered.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But if I remember well, the

11     question already came up, and the Trial Chamber decided to answer

12     negatively.  I believe that we must first and foremost take a look at our

13     prior decision in order to make sure that we do not issue a contradictory

14     decision today.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue with my

16     cross-examination, since time is at a premium and I am afraid that you

17     will deduct all this time from my time?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are not

19     deducting this, but there is a problem.  You are giving us six notebooks.

20     Some of these notebooks are connected to Vaske Vidovic, because there are

21     lists with mentions of his name.  Furthermore, there are issues that

22     might be of interest to the Trial Chamber; for example, the ethnical

23     makeup of units in the VRS.  You have just mentioned that there were two

24     Muslim members, for example.

25             Personally, I would admit these documents.  However, if my

Page 8313

 1     colleagues disagree, we will not admit them.  But we need to have a

 2     majority decision.  I will consult with my fellow Judges.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  To solve this

 5     issue, the Trial Chamber is asking the Registrar to give it an MFI

 6     number.  And if the person who, quote/unquote, is giving us these

 7     documents comes to testify, we will give it a real number, a final

 8     number.  So please, Mr. Registrar, give us a number for these six

 9     notebooks, MFI.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one number for all six.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be MFI C6.

13             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, on my

14     left, my case manager is telling me that we've never seen this document.

15     Could we please have a copy, when we finally decide on admissibility, so

16     that we can have a useful discussion, an informed discussion?  We need to

17     see a copy of these documents.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, can I ask you a question?

20             You offered these notebooks to the Chamber, so I suppose you

21     would wish to have them admitted as your exhibit.  Is that correct?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  I'm just here as a go-between.

23     Chetnik Vojvoda Vaske Vidovic, with sincere greetings to the

24     Trial Chamber, sent the original of his notebooks, which you received on

25     time during Theunens' -- expert witness Theunens' testimony, in the form

Page 8314

 1     of a photocopy.  It was translated into English.  There was a doubt

 2     expressed here as to its authenticity.  My wife brought it on Friday.

 3     The Detention Unit service gave them to me yesterday, and I'm just

 4     conveying this from my friend, Vaske Vidovic, as a go-between.

 5             I'm never going to ask any document be tendered into evidence as

 6     a Defence document, and I've stated that many times.  You can do what you

 7     will with those notebooks.  You can take them home as a souvenir, you can

 8     give them to the OTP, you can throw them in the wastepaper basket, but I

 9     can't take them back again, I can't send them back again.  I really

10     can't.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document will

12     be MFI C6.  I will ask the Registrar to make a copy of this document so

13     that it can be handed out to the OTP, which may need it.

14             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Towards the end of the examination-in-chief, Mr. Sejdic, you

17     spoke about the preparation of the Serb units for an attack on the

18     Niksic plateau, and you called that plateau the Crna Rijeka Plateau not

19     the Niksic Plateau because there's a river there called Crna Rijeka;

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Whereas it's the Niksic plateau?

23        A.   Well, yes.  Crna Rijeka, Niksic Plateau, that kind of thing.

24        Q.   Right.  And you said that the attack began at the end of 1993 or

25     the beginning of 1994; right?

Page 8315

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I came by a precise piece of information which tells me that the

 3     attack was launched on the 8th of November, 1993.  And when I present

 4     that information to you, when I tell you that, do you consider that that

 5     is correct?

 6        A.   I don't know what information you received.  I know what I said

 7     in my statement.  Now, your statements, well, I don't know whether

 8     they're correct or not, because you receive them from lists, from Vaske,

 9     et cetera, and you bring them in here as a souvenir.  And you know what a

10     souvenir means.  A souvenir is given to the Muslims, and not everybody is

11     a Muslim in the courtroom here, when you talk about souvenirs, when you

12     say, "Vaske sent souvenirs."  All of these statements of yours, using

13     the "tu" --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You keep addressing me in the singular, "tu," and that is

17     beginning to upset me.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, why are you so

19     informal?  You are being aggressive in doing so.  You are a witness of

20     justice.  You're not supposed to use "tu," the informal way of addressing

21     Mr. Seselj.  You should use a formal way of addressing him.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Judge.  Perhaps it

23     just came out of my lips.  But he addresses me in all kinds of ways and

24     he's laughing at me, and I have to take all that.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you believe that the accused

Page 8316

 1     is being provocative by smiling at you, just don't watch him, don't look

 2     at him.  Look at the Bench and just answer the question.  Keep cool,

 3     please.  There's no need to get all worked up.  Please stay cool.  It

 4     might be difficult, but please try to do so.

 5             Let's come back to the Niksic Plateau.  Mr. Seselj, proceed.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, I do have to try and convince you that I'm not

 8     laughing at you, and if I happen to have a smile on my face, it's an

 9     expression of sympathy, because I do sympathise with your bad fate after

10     1996.  However, if you consider this to be that I'm laughing at you, I'm

11     sorry for that.  You, using the "tu," would like to see me hang from a

12     branch somewhere; right?

13        A.   No, I would like you to have left with the Serb Army.

14        Q.   Then you wouldn't have had to undergo all the suffering.  But I

15     ask you, once again, not to use the "tu."  I really find that irritating.

16     Perhaps I have high opinions of myself, but it is a bit irritating to me

17     when someone keeps addressing me in the familiar form of "tu."

18        A.   All right, Mr. Seselj, carry on.

19        Q.   Now you said that this was at the end of 1993 to 1994.  That is a

20     time-frame, a period of time.  Now, I looked into this and established

21     when the attack on the Niksic Plateau was, and I came to see that it was

22     on the 8th of November.  Do you deny that it was the end of November?

23             The 8th of November is indeed the end of 1993.  So it's not in my

24     interests that it should be closer to the indictment period, it would be

25     in my interest that it was in 1994, whereas it was on the 8th of

Page 8317

 1     November, 1993.  Do you consider that that is not correct?

 2        A.   I did not say that it was correct or incorrect.  In my statement,

 3     it says, and I stressed, either the end of 1993 or the beginning of 1994,

 4     because I can't remember exactly, but that's what I said.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, that is not contained in any of your statements, and

 6     I have a total of five statements of yours, two which you gave to the

 7     Muslim authorities in 1996 and then to The Hague investigators.  I think

 8     that was in 1996, too.  Then the investigators again in 2004, and then

 9     The Hague investigators in 2006.  And never did you mention this rallying

10     of the Serb Army prior to the attack on the Niksic Plateau at which

11     Radovan Karadzic -- Karadzic, Mladic and I were there, myself.  You never

12     said that.  You said that during the examination-in-chief here in court

13     first.  Why?

14        A.   Because I recognised you, "tu," and I because I didn't remember

15     to emphasise that when you were there and when I saw you because there

16     was no talk about you, "tu," and I didn't know that I would be with you,

17     "vous," or, rather, "tu" here in the courtroom.  And when I was on the

18     plateau, the Niksic Plateau, when Dragan Josipovic and Jankovic and Vaske

19     were discussed, and when they came to that attack, I happened to see you,

20     "tu," as I told you the first day in the courtroom.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness has now addressed me

22     nine times in the familiar form of "tu," the second-person singular, nine

23     times during what he was saying.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, maybe every

25     day in your language when you speak, in everyday language, you always use

Page 8318

 1     the informal way of addressing people.  Maybe to you, using "tu," the

 2     informal way, is commonplace.  Is that the problem, that you say "tu" to

 3     everyone?

 4             Mr. Seselj, then don't get all worked up.  If he addresses you in

 5     such an informal way, it's his way of speaking.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. President.  First of

 7     all, I'm not taking offence at all.  If you accept this explanation, that

 8     this is the customary way in which the witness speaks, then I'm not going

 9     to intervene any longer.  See how constructive I am?  I relent straight

10     away.

11             Truth to tell, you did frighten me with a few of your

12     interventions, so I'm more amenable than usually.  But what can a person

13     do?  In the later years of one's life, one does get to feel weaker,

14     doesn't one.

15             I identified the date as the 8th of November.  The Prosecution

16     can check that, because -- well, the date is the 9th of November, and I

17     was helped out there by General Dragan Josipovic, who gave me his

18     statement, and we're going to look through that statement now, as a

19     statement by Vasilije Vidovic, who had taken part in the attack on the

20     Niksic Plateau.

21             Just now, with the assistance of my associates, I looked this up

22     and found out what it was that I did on the 9th and 10th and the 11th of

23     November, 1993, so could we please have document number 9, Roman

24     numeral IX on the overhead projector.

25             This is my book, "Rule the Roost," "Dedinje Dizdar."  This is the

Page 8319

 1     amended edition from 2002.  The cover page can be seen on the overhead

 2     projector.

 3        Q.   And now could you have a look at the following.  There is an

 4     interview of mine, entitled "Serbian Money in Cyprus."

 5             On the 9th of November, 1993, obviously, I was a guest speaker at

 6     Radio Stara Pazova.  Can you see that, Mr. Sejdic?

 7        A.   I'm not interested in this paper at all.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Next page, please.  On the 10th of November, I spoke

 9     at Radio Sabac, and that is where I gave an interview that was entitled

10     "Machine-gun Nests Defend the House of Flowers."

11             Next page.  On the 10th of November, I was also in Loznica.  So I

12     had two radio interviews, in actual fact.  I gave an interview that was

13     entitled "Drina:  The Drina River Will Not Be a Border," as it won't.

14     And on the 11th of November, I gave an interview to Radio Temerin,

15     entitled "The Government of the Financial State Mafia."  At that time,

16     there was an election campaign going on in Serbia in 1993, and every day

17     I was a guest speaker on radio or TV throughout Serbia, and it never

18     crossed my mind to travel to Republika Srpska, as the campaign was in

19     full sway.  On the 15th of September, we started toppling the Milosevic

20     government, headed by Nikola Sainovic, and after a long debate in

21     Parliament that went on for three or four weeks, Slobodan Milosevic

22     dissolved the National Assembly and we had early elections.  I did not

23     move out of Serbia on all of those until the election campaign was over

24     in December.

25             Do you believe that, Mr. Sejdic, when I say that?

Page 8320

 1        A.   How did you find all these excuses, and you went to speak to your

 2     Serbs and support them, and now you're trying to say that you did not go

 3     to the Crna Rijeka Plateau as well?  You didn't have a helicopter, you

 4     had nothing, right, nothing to bring you there, at least for an hour,

 5     half an hour, and then leave, and attend these governments and what have

 6     you not?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you swore under oath

 8     that you had seen Mr. Seselj on that plateau.  This is what you told us.

 9     Mr. Seselj is now bringing some documents, showing you some documents,

10     establishing that on the 8th, 9th and 10th of November, he was giving

11     interviews here and there.  Of course, you're saying that with the

12     helicopter, one can come on the plateau, stay half an hour, one hour, and

13     then leave again and give an interview, of course, but the problem is the

14     following:  If Mr. Seselj is showing that he was not there, in his mind,

15     he never came there, but, on the other hand, you state that you saw him.

16     This is where the debate lies.

17             So please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was in Vogosca,

19     Ilijas and Ilidza, the first time in 1994 and the second time in 1994.

20     But in 1993, I did not go to that area at all.  In November 1993, the

21     attack at the Niksic Plateau started, and in 1994, when I came to the

22     part of the Niksic Plateau facing the Olovo frontline, that was sometime

23     in the spring of 1994.  I toured the positions at the frontline, and

24     there was no fighting going on then.  Otherwise, at the Niksic Plateau we

25     had a group of volunteers from Serbia, a group of volunteers from the

Page 8321

 1     Serb Radical Party.  However, they were not moving from Ilijas and

 2     Vogosca, but from the completely opposite direction.  Olovo was in Muslim

 3     hands, and the villages above Olovo were in Serb hands.  I just wanted to

 4     explain a few things to you, if you're interested.  This can even be

 5     calculated as my time.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the accused can put

 7     documents to the witness, put questions to the witness, but now he's

 8     testifying.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] He can do the same thing by

11     putting questions, rather than testifying.  He is making a statement

12     right now.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard Mr. Seselj

14     say that the first time he went there was in 1994, so what do you have to

15     say to that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned that in my statements,

17     that is to say, the end of 1993, the beginning of 1994, so that's it.

18             Secondly, his paramilitary units, that is to say,

19     the mercenaries, Seselj's mercenaries, they arrived just before the

20     attack was to start.  They arrived during the night, and I pointed that

21     out in my statements.  They arrived on seven buses in the school in

22     Semizovac, and in front of the Kulin Dvor command at Ranko Jankovic's,

23     and that's when these units went to the Crna Rijeka village.  They

24     attacked it, actually.  So they were getting off trucks, and they wore

25     yellow ribbons or armbands.

Page 8322

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, it is important for the

 2     Prosecutor to find where it was that the witness stated this earlier on,

 3     because the statements that I have do not contain this about these seven

 4     buses.

 5             Should I continue with my questions now?

 6        Q.   In 1994, when I arrived in Vogosca, I was at Ilijas and Ilidza.

 7     General Josipovic, he was a colonel then, he toured the Serb positions at

 8     Zuc together with me.  Your unit was there, too; right?  Isn't that

 9     right, Mr. Sejdic, it was at Zuc?

10        A.   Possibly.

11        Q.   Do you remember that you shook hands with me on that occasion,

12     Mr. Sejdic?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   You forgot that as well?

15        A.   That's not correct.

16        Q.   Over the weekend, I consulted my friend Radovan Karadzic, and I

17     asked him where he was on the 9th of November, 1993.  And

18     Radovan Karadzic informed me that on the 9th of November, he was in

19     Belgrade, and that there he gave an interview to TV Reuters.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're giving us a

21     scoop.  You're telling us that during the weekend, you saw

22     Mr. Radovan Karadzic, who is wanted by the entire world.  Should we

23     understand it that way?

24             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would like to add the

25     following --

Page 8323

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not see him.

 2     I was in contact with him through an intermediary.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, because the

 4     sentence, as it is drafted in English on line 17, page 85, it says:  "I

 5     consulted my friend," so we were under the impression that you had a

 6     connection with him.  But now you're telling us that it was by other

 7     intermediaries?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 9     that we were in contact, Judge.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we should give

11     credit as to what is said, it should be told clearly, how the contact

12     took place.  I would be very happy if Mr. Seselj would -- were able to

13     shed some light on that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, allow him to finish his

15     question.

16             Mr. Seselj, go ahead, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would provide that information,

18     Judge, but I don't want it to be taken up as my time.  I will tell you in

19     great detail how it was that I contacted Radovan Karadzic, but I don't

20     want that to be included in my time.  So do you insist on this or not?

21     If not -- well, the Prosecutor insists.  I don't know if you insist.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will consult my fellow

23     Judges.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Chamber will

Page 8324

 1     not subtract this from your time.  Please proceed.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I instructed my associates to

 3     contact certain individuals who are in contact with Radovan Karadzic.  I

 4     asked them to provide me with information as to where Radovan Karadzic

 5     was on the 9th of November.  I received information that Radovan Karadzic

 6     was in Belgrade, and I thank my friend Radovan Karadzic for having kindly

 7     sent me this information.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please put your

 9     question to the witness, then, since on the 9th of November, Mr. Karadzic

10     was not on the plateau.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since it was not possible for me to

12     take a statement from Radovan Karadzic, because I don't know who could

13     certify that statement, I instructed my legal associates to look up, in

14     the daily press, possible traces of Radovan Karadzic's stay in Belgrade,

15     and they found these traces for me.  And here it is on page 6 of document

16     number 9.  You have a photocopy from the newspaper "Borba," dated the

17     10th of November, that day.

18        Q.   So you have an article stating that in Belgrade,

19     Radovan Karadzic, on the previous day in an interview with TV Reuters,

20     said the Serbs are ready to make territorial concessions.  Do you see

21     that?  So Radovan Karadzic, on the 9th of November, could not have been

22     at the Niksic Plateau and in Belgrade; right?  Isn't that right,

23     Mr. Sejdic?

24        A.   Mr. Seselj, I think all of these things that you said about

25     Karadzic, all of these are tricks and lies on your part.  So you can hang

Page 8325

 1     that around your neck so that you do not forget this as you walk in.

 2        Q.   Well, we've already stated that I'm not just an ordinary liar,

 3     but the greatest liar in this courtroom, but I still have to go on

 4     putting my questions to you, although I'm a liar.  So try to endure this.

 5        A.   I'm patient enough as it is.  I was so patient after all those

 6     years of your provocations.  But you saying that you shook hands with me

 7     at Zuc, I mean, I would rather shake hands with a rock or a tree than

 8     with you, even if I were to get killed.

 9        Q.   Well, I know that when you fell under the Muslim rule, you

10     regretted the fact that you shook hands, but --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have on the ELMO a

12     paper dated 10th of November, 1993, and it talks about the presence of

13     Mr. Karadzic, who was giving an interview to Reuters, and this would be

14     on the 9th of November.  So this is a strong element.

15             What do you have to say to this, independently of the fact that

16     there is a certain amount of antagonism between you and Mr. Seselj ?

17     That does not concern us, but we would like to know if what you said is

18     true or, rather, that you, yourself, saw Karadzic, Mladic and Mr. Seselj

19     on that plateau while a combat operation was taking place, and this is

20     what you told us.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I claim.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  So this is what you

25     confirm to us, but we have to establish on what date did you see all

Page 8326

 1     this.  It would appear that the combat operation took place in the month

 2     of November, but in November, Mr. Seselj was elsewhere.  Mr. Karadzic was

 3     in Belgrade, and that is a problem.  How do you resolve -- how do you

 4     solve, correction, this problem?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honour, this

 6     problem ...

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you cannot answer.  Very

 8     well.

 9             For the Trial Chamber, I would like to mention that this article

10     can place Karadzic somewhere on the 9th of November, but the interview

11     that he gave, it could also have been done by phone or otherwise.  It

12     doesn't necessarily mean that he had to be present in Belgrade.  This is

13     what the Trial Chamber may note.  I'm just saying this, but please

14     proceed.

15             I see that the time is ticking, so we might not be able to finish

16     this witness today.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I don't know how a

18     television interview can be given over the telephone, but I'm going to

19     put the following question to the witness:

20        Q.   Karadzic said, and this is on the same page, but in the second

21     paragraph:

22             "We are prepared to talk and re-examine the possibility of making

23     some territorial concessions to the Muslims, especially in Sarajevo."

24             Said Radovan Karadzic in his interview to Reuters Television in

25     Belgrade.

Page 8327

 1             And then the quotation continues:

 2             "We continue to advocate the continuation of talks, and we are

 3     prepared to help the Muslims get a larger part of Sarajevo and some other

 4     territories," added Karadzic.

 5             Now please look at page 8.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while the page is

 7     being put on the ELMO, I would like to note that I did not get these

 8     documents prior to the cross-examination.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had this photocopied before the

10     cross-examination.  Now, why the Prosecutor didn't get a copy or why he

11     lost his copy, I don't know.  But, at any rate, he certainly received a

12     copy of this.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, this document

14     apparently was sent to you at 7.41 this morning, or arrived at 7.41,

15     correction.  When Mr. Seselj got it, he gave to the Registry photocopies,

16     and I met them at 8.20 and the Registrar told me that there were some

17     documents.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I just notice that all these

19     documents were stapled together, so in fact I was not able to find it.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is page 8 of the document that

23     is under Roman numeral IX.  It is very clear, and it's very easy to find.

24             What we see here is a photocopy of the newspaper called

25     "Vecernje Novosti," dated the 10th of November.  They carried a similar

Page 8328

 1     article.  Dr. Radovan Karadzic says Bosnian Serbs are prepared to make

 2     concessions.  In paragraph 2, it also says:  "Karadzic said the following

 3     in his interview to TV Reuters in Belgrade."

 4             Mr. Sejdic, do you think both Karadzic and I were both at the

 5     Niksic Plateau and then took a helicopter and went to Belgrade; is that

 6     possible?

 7        A.   I don't know, but you have all the resources one could think of.

 8        Q.   You mentioned helicopters a moment ago?

 9        A.   Well, I said "maybe by helicopter," I think that's what I said.

10        Q.   Do you know that at the end of 1993, NATO air forces had

11     controlled the airspace above Bosnia-Herzegovina and not a single

12     aeroplane was able to take off without agreement from them?

13        A.   Keep that to yourself.  As far as I know, you had all the

14     resources at your disposal.  Whatever you wanted to do, you could have

15     done.  NATO has been looking for Karadzic and Mladic for ages and can't

16     find him.  He's in Belgrade, Zagreb, Serbia, wherever, now he's here,

17     then he's there, but you had the resources.

18        Q.   I tried to receive similar information from my friend

19     Ratko Mladic, but they're going to be one or two days late, so I won't be

20     able to use that information in this particular cross-examination, but

21     never mind, perhaps it's not essential.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8329

 1             I have to take a break now.  We're going to take a 20-minute

 2     break, and we will resume at 10 to 12.00.  And, of course, the hearing

 3     will finish at 1.15.

 4             Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection.  The question is way

 6     too personal.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I anticipated that

 8     already, so I ordered a redaction.

 9             We will resume at 10 after 12.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

14             Mr. Registrar, please, could you move into closed session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8330











11 Pages 8330-8338 redacted. Private session.















Page 8339

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

Page 8340

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to respond to this assertion

 3     made by counsel for the Prosecution.

 4             According to 65 ter, the material was submitted to me only in

 5     October last year, and on the 6th of November, the trial started --

 6     rather, the 7th of November.  It was the pre-trial conference that was

 7     held on the 6th.  And I quite literally prepare for every witness that is

 8     to come.  I don't have time to prepare for several witnesses at the same

 9     time.  As they announce that a particular witness will come, that is how

10     I carry out my preparation.  When they make the wrong announcement, as

11     was often the case until now, then I prepare for the wrong person.  They

12     announced Ivan Grujic, and I prepared for him, and I was snowed under

13     with all these autopsy findings, and lo and behold, they gave up on him,

14     they're not going to bring him at all, and now all of a sudden they're

15     going to bring some colleague of his from work, a lady.

16             I did not have enough time to prepare for these witnesses.  Until

17     October 1996, I did not have material from the OTP.  For five years, they

18     hoped that I would have an attorney imposed upon me and that they would

19     be able to put in whatever they wanted to.  They would have a passive

20     defence, gung-ho, they would insert whatever they wanted to, and that

21     would be it.

22             So, anyway, I am going to continue preparing for each and every

23     witness only when a particular witness is announced, and the Prosecution

24     will have to face the facts; namely, that documents arrive only later.

25             Now I received a document because my associates realised that we

Page 8341

 1     were disputing the date of the death of Sladjan Okilj, so can we have

 2     this document that I received just now placed on the ELMO and I'm going

 3     to put a question to the witness.  I have no other way to clarify the

 4     dates, and the Prosecution did not carry out the investigation properly.

 5     Had they done it properly, they would have given us a review of all

 6     dates, they would have said the attack on the Niksic Plateau started on

 7     such-and-such a date and so on and so forth.  There was no investigation,

 8     so now I have to conduct the investigation.  So this is a book.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your question.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is the book, "The Nemanjics of Ilijas."  The author is

12     Velemir Adzic, and we showed this when (redacted). So

13     please go all the way to page 144.  It is page 5 here for us, so that the

14     witness can see there is a list here of the Serbs who got killed during

15     this war.  And under number 342 is the name of Sladjan Okilj, father's

16     name Nikola, member of the Reconnaissance Platoon of the 5th Infantry

17     Battalion, born on the 19th of April, 1974, in Vares; got killed on the

18     23rd of October, 1993, in the village of Vis, Zuc, near Vogosca, by a

19     hand grenade that was thrown by the enemy.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor is

21     on his feet.

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The name of a witness was

23     mentioned, and I would like a redaction because this witness had been

24     granted protective measures.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which witness?

Page 8342

 1             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Maybe I won't say anything because

 2     we're not in private session.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can remember he testified in

 4     public.  If I've made a mistake, I truly am sorry.  The name can be

 5     redacted, but --

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Are we in private session, Mr. --

 7     sir?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, line 10, page 104, is

 9     that it?

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exactly it, he had

11     protective measures.  I would like a redaction.  I would like Mr. Seselj

12     to make sure in the future to check things before he actually mentions

13     names.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             Mr. Seselj, this witness had been granted protective measures.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I truly am sorry.  My mistake.

17     Once again, I'm going to read this out or, rather, I'm going to say -- I

18     mean, with my -- I mean, giving my consent that this be redacted, the

19     book that I'm quoting is "The Nemanjics of Ilijas," written by

20     Velemir Adzic, and on page 144, under number 342, among the casualties

21     from Ilijas and Vogosca, under number 342 there's a reference to

22     Sladjan Okilj, father's name Nikola, member of the Reconnaissance

23     Platoon of the 5th Infantry Battalion, born on the 19th of April, 1974,

24     in Vares; got killed on the 23rd of October, 1993, in the village of Vis,

25     Zuc, near Vogosca; was killed by a hand grenade that had been thrown by

Page 8343

 1     the enemy.  He was buried at the Ljubina-Semizovac Cemetery."

 2        Q.   Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  No need to dwell on this document any further.

 5             Now, I have obtained a few more statements by persons whom you

 6     know from this war, so, first of all, we are going to have a look at

 7     Roman numeral I.  That's the number of the statement, the statement of

 8     Vasilije Vidovic.  And now I'm going to indicate certain sections of this

 9     statement to you, and you are going to tell me whether that is true or

10     not.  His statement was compiled on the basis of your statement and on

11     the basis of your examination-in-chief.

12             Could you please take this and put it on the overhead projector.

13     Roman numeral I is the number of the statement.

14             First of all, Vasilije Vidovic here denies that he took part in

15     the fighting in the village of Svrake at all.  Although you did not say

16     that in your previous statements, on one occasion you did say that he

17     took part in that, didn't you?

18        A.   Mr. Vaske Vidovic took part in the beginning when the mosque was

19     destroyed.  That's when he came with his artillery and he destroyed the

20     mosque.

21        Q.   When was that?

22        A.   From 1992 to 1993.

23        Q.   End of 1993?

24        A.   I cannot remember.

25        Q.   End of 1992, I mean?

Page 8344

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Or the beginning of 1993.  Were there any Muslims in the village

 3     of Svrake then?

 4        A.   There weren't that many Muslims left then, because the Muslims

 5     were taken away by force.

 6        Q.   Let's see what Vasilije Vidovic says:

 7             "My unit and I, as its commander, never took part in any fighting

 8     for the village of Svrake.  Throughout the war in the former

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I and none of my soldiers ever entered this village.

10     The village of Svrake was in the rear.  We only passed by it when we went

11     to the frontline.  To this day, I do not know, as I did not know then,

12     what happened in that village.  When I returned from medical treatment in

13     mid-May, 1992, I spent some time in Ilijas, where there was no fighting.

14     The first fighting that I took part in with my unit took place near

15     Podlugovo [as interpreted], where the Muslim forces were advancing from

16     the direction of Breza."

17             Is this correct, is this true, what Vasilije Vidovic is saying?

18        A.   It's not true.

19        Q.   All right.  He says further on:

20             "I and the other members of my unit were never called 'Seselj's

21     men' by anyone, nor could I interpret that nickname.  People called the

22     soldiers from my unit 'Vaske's Chetniks,' from the very first fight that

23     we took part in."

24             Is this correct?

25        A.   As far as I know, they could not have called Vaske as a man of

Page 8345

 1     Seselj's.  I remember mentioning him as a local man.  The mercenaries,

 2     Seselj's men, came and joined him at the frontline and the fighting that

 3     he took part in.

 4        Q.   Did these mercenaries belong to his unit?

 5        A.   Of course.

 6        Q.   On that list of members of his unit, can you identify the

 7     mercenaries who is not from that area?

 8        A.   I cannot tell you exactly, because people knew -- I mean, I would

 9     distinguish them on the basis of their uniforms, insignia, and so on.

10        Q.   Further on, Vidovic says:

11             "I have never heard of the existence of this so-called Planja's

12     house.  I do not know at all where it is or what it looks like.  Also,

13     throughout the war I never had any deputy in the unit."

14        A.   That is not true.

15        Q.   All right.  And now is this true?  Vasilije Vidovic says:

16             "I never entered, during the course of the war, any tyre repair

17     shop in Vogosca, and in particular, I did not run this kind of a store.

18     I note that Vogosca and Ilijas are two different municipalities, in terms

19     of military and civilian organisation, and since I and my unit belonged

20     to Ilijas only, even if I wanted to, I could not have been given any shop

21     from the territory of a different municipality."

22        A.   That is not correct.  Vasilije Vidovic could have run whoever or

23     whatever he wanted, because that is how Josipovic rewarded him.  Vidovic

24     knew of Planja's house, the garage, everything else.  I think that I have

25     already mentioned all of that.  This is correct, it is contained in my

Page 8346

 1     statements.  And if it is not correct, you can ask the Muslim people, who

 2     were in the prisons, whether they knew Vaske.

 3        Q.   All right.  Vaske Vidovic says:

 4             "The officer who was my direct superior was

 5     General Dragan Josipovic.  He was commander of the Tactical Group,

 6     commanded the brigades from Ilijas, Ilidza, Rajlovac, and Vogosca."

 7             Not only the brigade of Vogosca; is that correct?

 8        A.   I mentioned in my statement that the commander of the battalion

 9     was Dragan Josipovic, near Vogosca, [indiscernible], called "Sonja," that

10     he was authorised in terms of all the axes, Ilijas, Vogosca, Semizovac

11     and the other places.

12        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, do you know what the difference is between a brigade

13     and a battalion?

14        A.   I don't know.  I just know that he was the top man then.

15        Q.   Well, he was commander of the Tactical Group that included four

16     brigades -- five brigades -- four brigades?

17        A.   Well, if you know that it's four or five, it's got to be more

18     than that.

19        Q.   Four brigades.

20        A.   Possibly more than that, then.

21        Q.   Look at what Vasilije Vidovic says:

22             "No one ever carried ammunition for my unit, because this was a

23     mechanised unit.  All the ammunition was on the vehicles."

24        A.   I did not say that I carried this ammunition for

25     Vasilije Vidovic.  It was for Rajko Jankovic and his combatants.

Page 8347

 1        Q.   Did anybody else carry weapons for Vasilije Vidovic?

 2        A.   Others from the work platoon should know that.  If they carried

 3     this for Vaske, then they should know.  I don't know about this.

 4        Q.   You did not hear of a work platoon being subordinated to him?

 5        A.   Just like I didn't hear of these two Muslims being on the

 6     frontline with him.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, as for the description you provide for Vaske

 8     Vidovic, this is what he says:

 9             "As for my personal weapons, I never carried a weapon with a

10     short barrel.  Rather, I carried a revolver only.  I am not aware of any

11     sabre.  I could not enter a single vehicle from my unit with it.  I never

12     wore any kind of military overalls.  On the traditional flag that we

13     carried around, there weren't any crossed sabres.  Rather, it was crossed

14     bones that are in line with tradition."

15             He is referring to Chetnik traditions here.

16             Don't you know that no one ever saw Vaske Vidovic with this sabre

17     that you refer to?

18        A.   That is not true, that is a lie.  I know full well what it was

19     that he carried and what I saw, and I stated that and I stand by that.

20        Q.   All right.  What's the point of this sabre in wartime?  What can

21     one do with a sabre, except for the fact that it can only bother a man

22     who had been wounded 13 times and who limped visibly?

23        A.   Well, you go ahead and ask him.  If he wanted to slaughter

24     someone, he would with that sabre.  In Crna Rijeka, he slaughtered a man,

25     a Muslim who was a driver, and he cut off his head and he put it on a

Page 8348

 1     pole, and then he said, "Finally I got rid of this man."  I guess that he

 2     harmed him before the war, so he was pleased that he had cut off this

 3     man's head.

 4        Q.   Did you see him cutting off this man's head?

 5        A.   No, I didn't see him doing it, but I saw the head on the pole and

 6     I heard him say that.

 7        Q.   But you said, during the examination-in-chief, that he put it on

 8     the hood of his jeep?

 9        A.   Yes, later on he put it on the hood of that jeep.  When they were

10     leaving Crna Rijeka, then he took the skull and he put it on his jeep so

11     that he could brag as he passed through Semizovac and all the other

12     villages, so that people could see what it was that Vaske Vidovic did.

13        Q.   And he already had a skull on that jeep?

14        A.   Yes, but that was an older skull.  I don't know from what

15     century.

16        Q.   You don't know from what century that skull was?  Could it have

17     been a plastic skull, maybe?

18        A.   Well, possibly.  I did not get any closer to it, and I didn't

19     caress it, certainly, but I saw that it was a skull.

20        Q.   All right.  I saw that skull, too, and I drove in Vaske's jeep.

21        A.   Well, what kind of a jeep was it?  Was it enjoyable?

22        Q.   Very enjoyable.  There was a skull on the hood, and there was a

23     helmet on it, too.  Do you remember?

24        A.   I don't know about the helmet, but at any rate you enjoyed it.

25        Q.   Let's not talk about how I felt.  How could you see the skull

Page 8349

 1     without seeing the helmet?  All of Ilijas, all of Vogosca, all of Ilidza

 2     saw on the hood of Vaske's jeep a skull and a blue helmet of the UN.

 3        A.   It's not true that there was a helmet.  There was only a skull.

 4        Q.   Without a helmet?

 5        A.   Without a helmet.

 6        Q.   With my very own eyes, I saw a UN blue helmet.

 7        A.   Maybe you did, Mr. Seselj, but I didn't.

 8        Q.   So in addition to this skull, how could you affix the head that

 9     had been cut off somebody's body?

10        A.   On a pole, where the flag was, the black flag that I've already

11     described.  It was on that pole that that head was fixed, and then he

12     drove the jeep.

13        Q.   And why, not in a single statement that you gave to The Hague

14     Tribunal or the Muslim authorities, did you mention the fact that this

15     head was placed on the jeep by Vaske Vidovic?  That does not exist in any

16     of your statements.

17        A.   As far as I know, I said he placed it on a pole, and when the

18     fighting was over in that area, he took the head and put it on his car

19     and drove it.

20        Q.   My question to you is:  Why, not in a single statement that you

21     gave either to the Muslim authorities or The Hague investigators, did you

22     say that Vaske Vidovic affixed a head that had been cut off to his jeep?

23        A.   I think I did mention that.

24        Q.   Well, it doesn't exist in any of your statements.

25        A.   Well, as far as I know, I did say that.

Page 8350

 1        Q.   Perhaps you said it.  Perhaps this was highly unbelievable and

 2     they didn't want to put it in your statement.  But let's see what

 3     Vaske Vidovic says with respect to that skull, and that is paragraph 2 on

 4     page 2 of his statement.  He says:

 5             "The skull on the hood of my car was a plastic one, and it was

 6     brought to me by my friends from a school that had been destroyed.  As

 7     far as I know, it was a secondary school of some sort in a place called

 8     Srednje."

 9             Was there a secondary school in a place called Srednje?

10        A.   Yes, there was a school in Srednje.

11        Q.   What secondary school was that?

12        A.   Well, I don't know the name of the school exactly, but I do know

13     that there was a school.

14        Q.   Is it possible that in the biology laboratory, they might have

15     had a plastic skull there in that school?

16        A.   How would I be expected to know that?

17        Q.   Well, you said that the skull was hundreds of years old,

18     centuries old; right?  Anyway, at -- in any case --

19             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Speculative questions are put to

22     the witness.  He cannot answer to this type of questions.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             Yes, Mr. Seselj, proceed.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, it's important for me to

Page 8351

 1     have heard that the witness said that the skull on the hood of the car

 2     was hundreds of years old.  He can't know whether it was a real one or

 3     not.  At first, when I saw it, I thought it was a real one, and then I

 4     asked around and I was told that it was plastic.  When I saw the UN

 5     helmet, I found that rather nice, because it wasn't a threat to the

 6     Muslim civilians but a threat to the UN soldiers.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you mentioned the skull a

 8     moment ago, what I know is this:  You asked how old was it -- how old it

 9     was, and I said I didn't know.  I said perhaps from times immemorial,

10     perhaps not.  So you can't speak that way.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   All right.  We don't know the origins of the skull.  Let's put it

13     that way.

14        A.   Well, you know now.  You're saying that instead of a real one, it

15     might have been plastic, so that means that you know.  You saw it, you

16     saw the helmet.  I did not see it.  What I saw, I said.

17        Q.   All right.  I saw it, and Vaske Vidovic says that it was plastic,

18     but it's immaterial whether it was an old real skull or a plastic one.  I

19     liked the way it was used as a threat to the UN, but we won't dwell on

20     that point.  We'll move on.

21        A.   It wasn't a threat to the UN.  It was a threat to the Muslims so

22     that they should know, when they see it, who Vaske Vidovic was.

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these comments are

24     completely inappropriate.  Questions can be put, the witness can answer,

25     but this is repetitive and that's my objection.

Page 8352

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, your comment on

 2     that skull with regard to the UN is absolutely inappropriate.

 3             Proceed.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, did you hear that at the beginning of the summer

 6     19 -- that I was almost killed in the jeep where this plastic skull was

 7     with the UN helmet; did you hear about that?

 8        A.   Who are you talking about?

 9        Q.   I was in the jeep, myself.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the date.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had I heard that you'd been killed

12     in the jeep, that would have made me very happy.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   All right.  Well, I'm going to tell you something now, and you

15     confirm whether you know something about that or not.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the interpreters

17     were not able to catch the date.  It was in the summer of 1993, I

18     imagine, but I'm not sure.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1994, Mr. President, 1994.  1994

20     was the first time I was in Ilijas, and I was in the jeep.  I'm providing

21     this information to the witness.  And then I asked him whether he had

22     heard anything about that.

23             On my way back from visiting Ilijas, Vogosca and Ilidza, I was

24     also in Hadzici, anyway, I was in a jeep driven by Vaske Vidovic.  I was

25     in the front seat.  Behind me were Tomislav Nikolic and Nikola Poplasen,

Page 8353

 1     and at the very back there was a soldier, and we were going across

 2     Poljine.

 3        Q.   Do you know where Poljine is?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   It's an elevation above Sarajevo where the Serbs had to make a

 6     new road in order to connect Ilijas, Vogosca and Ilidza with Pale; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Anyway, from the Muslim positions a Maljutka was fired.  Do you

 9     know what weapon a Maljutka is?

10        A.   I have absolutely no idea.  It's a mortar?

11        Q.   It's a guided anti-aircraft missile.  Anyway, that Maljutka

12     missed our jeep by half a metre, and the news went 'round Vogosca

13     straight away, in Ilijas, Hadzici, Vogosca, how we were targeted by a

14     Maljutka and how we managed to escape, just.

15        A.   How could I know about all that?  You were driven there, driven

16     back.  You toured the lines.  Who knows?  You might have come across a

17     tank mine, you might have come across a bomb.  I know nothing about that.

18     I didn't hear anything about that, and I don't know.

19        Q.   But you saw me at Zuc hill.  You were deployed with your unit

20     there?

21        A.   Don't repeat that.  I said I hadn't seen you there, and I didn't

22     shake your hand.

23        Q.   So I'm lying and you're telling the truth?

24        A.   I didn't say you were lying.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I'm lying.

Page 8354

 1             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On that particular point,

 3     Mr. Seselj, in 1994, apparently was in the area on board a vehicle, and

 4     some witness can confirm this.  Mr. Nikolic would be one of them.  And

 5     there was another person with him, Nikola Poplasen.  If he is driving

 6     around and if he is in the area, he must have gone to meet the fighters,

 7     and a political figure, when he meets combatants, fighters, he will shake

 8     hands with them.  So are you absolutely certain you did not meet him at

 9     all?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see him in the Zuc area

11     at all, the fact that he says that I was at Zuc and he shook hands with

12     me.  No.  The day that I said I saw him personally at the Crna Rijeka

13     Plateau, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Mladic, Dragan Josipovic and the rest of his

14     fighters and bodyguards, that's when I said I saw him, and I stand by

15     that.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, wouldn't it seem strange to you if I were to say that

18     never during the war did I see General Ratko Mladic in the area of

19     Republika Srpska?  I just met him twice, both times in Belgrade and he

20     was wearing civilian clothes.  Do you believe me when I say that?

21        A.   A moment ago, as far as I remember it, before this statement,

22     when I was saying that you were on the plateau, that Crna Rijeka Plateau,

23     that you were with Karadzic and Mladic and the rest of them, when I said

24     that, you said after 1994, that you did tour those lines.

25        Q.   But I wasn't with them.

Page 8355

 1        A.   As far as I know, you, "tu" were with them.

 2        Q.   So you don't believe me when I tell that I never met Ratko Mladic

 3     in Republika Srpska during the war?

 4        A.   How could I believe you?  Why am I here?  I'm here as a witness

 5     to testify about what I saw, and that's what I'm saying.

 6        Q.   All right.  Well, I can confirm that you're a very honest witness

 7     here.

 8        A.   I don't know how to take that, how to understand that.

 9             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] All right.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Inappropriate comments,

11     Mr. President.  Objection to these comments.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Mr. Seselj.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Shall I continue?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go on.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Vaske Vidovic goes on to say that on Zuc hill, there were never

18     any houses.  At the foot of the hill, all that existed was several Serb

19     houses, and throughout the time people lived in those houses.  Is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Who lived in those houses?

22        Q.   The Serbs.

23        A.   Yes, the Serbs were there, but in only some houses.  Some houses

24     were occupied lower down towards Vogosca.

25        Q.   But the Muslims weren't in that area at all at the foot of the

Page 8356

 1     hill?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, the Muslims were up at the line, feature

 3     850, elevation 850.

 4        Q.   The Muslim units?

 5        A.   Yes, at feature 850, and the Serbs were at feature 830.

 6        Q.   So the position of the Muslim units was 20 metres higher up than

 7     the Serb positions, at a higher altitude; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So elevation 850 is 850 metres above sea level.  From the Muslim

10     positions, and then 20 metres up, the Serb positions could be seen far

11     better than could the Muslims from the Serb side?

12        A.   I don't know.  I can't say.  I didn't draw up any maps, or

13     sketches, or anything.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, explain to me what sort of human shield that the

15     Serbs employed opposite the Muslim forces.  What did this human shield or

16     live wall look like?  Human shield, I'm talking about, human shield.

17        A.   Well, the human shield was made up of Muslims from the work

18     platoons who had been captured when they were taken to the container

19     which was on the other side; that is to say, nearer to Zuc and the Muslim

20     units than the other side towards Rajlovac and Serbia.  So that's where

21     the container was set up, in the Serb zone, and that's where the Muslims

22     were incarcerated overnight.  While they were digging and working, when

23     the Muslims weren't shooting, they would let them dig.

24             Now, after that, that is to say, when the attack on Zuc should

25     have taken place and on these Muslims and the rest of us who were there,

Page 8357

 1     as I've already said, so that was the human shield.  When the attack took

 2     place on Zuc, that's when they sent us into the frontlines.

 3        Q.   Please, you have given me a long answer, but not answered my

 4     question.  I still haven't been able to understand what this human shield

 5     looked like at Zuc.  The Muslims were 20 metres higher up than the Serb

 6     positions.  They were above the Serb positions.  The work platoon took

 7     part in digging the trenches.  That is what a labour platoon does.  If

 8     you have to do labour, you dig trenches.  Now, the prisoners weren't

 9     allowed to be in these work platoons.  If the prisoners were brought in,

10     then that was a crime.  But you were in a work platoon and you weren't a

11     prisoner?

12        A.   Who asked anybody whether they were prisoners or not?

13        Q.   That's not the essential part.  You're working in a work platoon,

14     and the work you were doing was digging trenches.  That's clear to me.

15     You were exposed to risk because the member of a work platoon can also be

16     killed, and perhaps some of them were.  But what did the human shield

17     look like?  Explain that to me.  There are Serb trenches and there are

18     Muslim trenches across the way.  The Muslim trenches were 20 metres

19     higher up, at an elevation 20 metres higher than the Serb positions.

20     How, then, could the Serb soldiers use you, from the work platoon, as a

21     human shield?  I'm not clear on that, I don't understand it.

22        A.   Well, yes, they can.

23        Q.   Well, how?

24        A.   Well, when the line was falling and the Muslims tried to break

25     through the frontline of the Serb Army, when there weren't enough people

Page 8358

 1     from the Serb Army up at the frontlines, and while the reinforcements

 2     were arriving, while we were escaping from the shooting, they made us go

 3     in front of them as a human shield.

 4        Q.   How do you mean "in front of them"?  If trenches exist, then the

 5     distance between trenches was 15 to 20 metres; right?

 6        A.   No, not 15 to 20.

 7        Q.   Well, how -- what was the distance?

 8        A.   Perhaps 100 metres.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's take the distance between the trenches of the

10     two enemy sides to be 100 metres.  The Muslims are on the attack.  The

11     Serbs feel that they have too few men, so what did they do then?  They

12     took you from the work platoon and place you in front of their lines, in

13     front of their trenches, to protect themselves that way; is that what you

14     mean?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   How?

17        A.   Well, very nicely.  They put us in front, when they tried to push

18     the trenches back.  The Muslims had already taken two or three trenches.

19     They tried to take them back.  They couldn't do that, and then there was

20     an all-out attack.  It was a fierce attack from Zuc hill.  That means

21     that the Muslims attacked the Serb frontlines.  However, they didn't have

22     enough men, and they placed us there so that they could fight to take

23     control of the line again.  And as far as I remember, there was a

24     statement given by Alija Izetbegovic to the fact that -- he was asked

25     whether our men should hit the human shield or not.

Page 8359

 1        Q.   Leave Izetbegovic alone.  You still haven't explained to us what

 2     a human shield looks like.  If the Muslims are on the attack, then the

 3     Serbs -- and the Serbs have few fighters and they need you to act as

 4     reinforcements, they have to provide you with weapons if you are going to

 5     be reinforcements, because if you're sitting in a trench without weapons,

 6     then that doesn't mean a thing.

 7        A.   We weren't in the trenches.

 8        Q.   Well, what did you do?

 9        A.   They made us go in front.  We were escaping but they made us move

10     forward, and they went along behind us, shooting.

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no problem as

12     to the question, but the question is repeated over and over.  The witness

13     answer what he could answer, but I would like to raise an objection

14     because the question is being repeated.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  And slow down, please, because it is impossible

16     to translate at this speed.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, don't put the

18     question over and over, unless you really want to highlight another

19     aspect of your question.  But I don't see it, actually.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I seem to be the

21     most stupid here.  It seems that just -- it's just me that can't

22     understand what this human shield looked like.  I'm clear on the fact

23     that the Muslims are attacking and that the Serbs have to defend

24     themselves with very few men.  I'm clear that the members of the work

25     platoon are trying to escape.  I understand that the army is trying to

Page 8360

 1     get them to come back to the trenches, or near the trenches, but how they

 2     place them forward as a human shield, I just don't understand that.  And

 3     how is it possible to have that kind of human shield?

 4             Perhaps you understand this.  I don't know.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I don't understand more

 6     than you.

 7             Witness, you were there.  This term "human shield" is used in

 8     this Tribunal quite often.  At times, it refers to people digging holes,

 9     and at other times it refers to people who are acting as a human wall,

10     under fire.  So were you under fire, under Muslim fire, in order to

11     protect the Serbs from the Muslim fire, or were you a human shield for

12     something else?  Because when we use this term, "human shield," it also

13     presupposes that there's a creation of an obstacle perhaps for a bullet

14     to go through, so it's a screen stopping bullets to go through.  So would

15     the Serbs put you between them and the Muslims so that you would get

16     fired at first and killed?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was the purpose?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the aim of preventing the

20     Muslims to enter their territory.  That's why they placed us there, for

21     us to die and they to protect themselves and to shoot at the Muslims from

22     behind our backs or in front of our chests, to shoot at them that way.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But if the Muslims were

24     attacking Serb positions, and you were there in the first lines without

25     any weapons, it is obviously clear that you would get killed first, but

Page 8361

 1     this will not stop the Muslim forces from moving on, if they have the

 2     intention to take over the position.  This is where I'm losing you.

 3             What is the purpose of creating a human shield unless it's just

 4     to kill people for fun?  Please explain.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can explain that,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             That human shield was composed of us, the work platoon, and when

 8     the Serbs started placing us into this human shield and forcing us ahead,

 9     there was firing.  When the shooting started, we were shot at from all

10     sides.  The Muslims at the time said they had come across a human shield

11     and should not shoot, and there were public apologies.  Several months

12     later, I saw this on television when Alija spoke about it.  So he said,

13     "You have to shoot.  Do not allow the Serbs to enter Sarajevo.  If the

14     Serbs were to enter Sarajevo, it would be the end of the world."  So

15     that's why they placed us there, and the Muslims and the Serbs had to

16     shoot at us, and we were a human shield.  That's what a human shield is.

17             When the attack on Zuc was called, he knows what the attack on

18     Zuc means and what it was.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that you were

20     positioned in such a way that both Muslims and Serbs would be shooting at

21     you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, you were a work platoon of the Semizovac Battalion;

25     is that right?

Page 8362

 1        A.   Yes --

 2        Q.   How many men did that battalion have?

 3        A.   How many?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Well, Rajko Jankovic held two or three lines, I think.

 6        Q.   And the total number of men in the Semizovac Battalion, how many

 7     men in all?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Did it have 300 men?

10        A.   Well, it had more.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's say between 300 and 400 soldiers, not to

12     over-exaggerate; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, the Semizovac Battalion had a work platoon in which you

15     were, yourself?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The work platoon had 25 members; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was that the only work platoon that the Semizovac Battalion had?

20        A.   The only work platoon numbering 25 men, and all trace of them is

21     lost.  Only seven or eight of us remained.

22        Q.   Well, people get killed in wars, Mr. Sejdic.  You must know that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me stop you.  I

24     see the clock ticking.  We have to adjourn because I'm sitting in another

25     trial very soon.

Page 8363

 1             According to the computations, you have some 20 minutes left.

 2     I'll tell you exactly how much time you have left tomorrow.  Maybe

 3     Mr. Dutertre will have some redirect.

 4             So, Witness, as things stand now, you can be sure that your

 5     testimony will end tomorrow morning.  I thought that we might be done

 6     today.  Because of a number of problems, we were not able to finish

 7     today.

 8             Let me tell Mr. Seselj that he has exactly 25 minutes left.

 9             We will resume tomorrow at 8.30 a.m.  Mr. Seselj will have 25

10     minutes.  Let's hope that there will be no objections and so forth and so

11     on.  Then I will give the floor to Mr. Dutertre for the redirect, and we

12     will finish with this witness and then we will have Witness 1012, unless

13     I am mistaken.

14             So, Witness, you are going to come back tomorrow morning, one

15     more day in the courtroom, but rest assured tomorrow your testimony would

16     last at most one hour.  So by 9.30, you will be free to go, and you can

17     catch a plane.

18             Thank you, and let's adjourn, and we will resume at 8.30 tomorrow

19     morning.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day

22                           of June, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.