Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9734

 1                           Wednesday, 23 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Mr. Registrar,

 7     please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you very much,

11     Mr. Registrar.

12             Good morning, Mr. Saxon.  Good morning, Mr. Seselj.  Good

13     morning, ladies and gentlemen from the Prosecutor's office and I'd also

14     like to greet all the other people who are present in the courtroom.

15             Mr. Saxon is going to be very short.  The Trial Chamber would

16     only like you to tell us how is a witness statement taken, and what we

17     are interested in is a particular statement to which you were -- a

18     statement given at which you were present.  It was following an

19     investigation that was led by the OTP.

20             But before that, I would like you to read the solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

22     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  DANIEL SAXON

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you very much.  You may

Page 9735

 1     sit down.

 2             Very well.  So, very briefly, sir, witness statements are taken

 3     by the OTP, and in two particular cases you were present because your

 4     name is on the statements.

 5             Now, according to your recollection, would you be able to tell us

 6     how it took place?  We would like to know if the witness at the time was

 7     informed, in his own language, of the contents of the statement.  Was

 8     that statement reread to him?  Did he sign it after?  This is the type of

 9     details that we would like to know, so could you please explain to us

10     what you know and what you remember?

11        A.   Thank you, Your Honours.

12             With the particular -- with respect to the particular witness

13     that the Chamber is concerned about today, I participated in the

14     production of two separate statements.  The first time -- the first

15     statement was, I believe, was in November of 2004, and the second

16     statement was in June of 2006.  And the procedures regarding the

17     production of those two statements were slightly different, so let me

18     take each statement one at a time so I can explain that.

19             In November of 2004, Investigator Pastore-Stocchi and I

20     interviewed the witness with the purpose of asking some follow-up

21     questions to the witness and to take what became a follow-up statement, a

22     second statement, because earlier that year the witness had given a

23     statement to another investigator of the OTP.  And Mr. Pastore-Stocchi

24     and I had some additional questions to ask the witness specifically

25     pertaining to the investigation into this case.

Page 9736

 1             And so in November of 2004, we met with the witness in the

 2     Belgrade field office, in a conference room there, and at that time we

 3     asked questions to the witness.  We explained to the witness that we had

 4     some additional questions related to his previous statement, and we asked

 5     him those questions.  And the witness obviously responded.  I took notes

 6     at that time.  I still have those notes.  And Paolo Pastore-Stocchi was

 7     typing the responses of the witness into a, I believe, laptop computer

 8     and producing effectively, then, the statement that was signed then in

 9     November of 2004.

10             After the -- effectively, shall we say, a draft statement was

11     then created there at the computer.  I reviewed it, as a matter of fact,

12     because I'm a native English speaker.  Mr. Pastore-Stocchi was not, so I

13     simply reviewed it just to make sure there were no mistakes in grammar,

14     et cetera, et cetera.  And then the statement was read back to the

15     witness, translated from the English into the language we refer to as

16     B/C/S.  And the witness was, of course, told that as we read it back, if

17     the witness believes there are any mistakes or that need to be corrected,

18     any modifications that need to be made, he could certainly tell us, and

19     then we would correct those mistakes and make those modifications.

20             So the statement was read back to the witness, of course, with

21     the use of an interpreter, and I don't specifically recall that the

22     witness made corrections or suggested corrections.  He may have.  I

23     simply can't recall that level of specificity.  But if he did, we

24     certainly incorporated the witness's corrections and changes into the

25     statement.  And then the statement was printed out in the English

Page 9737

 1     language.  We would have -- there was no -- there's no printer -- at

 2     least at that time there was no printer in the room that we used in the

 3     Belgrade field office, so we would, on a compact disc or on a USB stick,

 4     we would take the statement to a computer on the first floor, on the

 5     second floor, that was connected to a printer.  We would print the

 6     statement out, bring it back to the witness, and ask the witness to sign

 7     the first page, initial the remaining pages, sign the last page, and also

 8     sign the witness acknowledgment, which I believe is the very last page.

 9             That was how, in a nutshell, how the statement of November 2004

10     was taken.

11             My recollection of the witness, he's an intelligent man,

12     sophisticated, extremely cooperative.

13             I saw the witness again in June.  I saw the witness the second

14     time in June of 2006, because at that time the Prosecution team was

15     expecting that this trial would begin as soon as October or November of

16     2006, and in an effort to make the trial as efficient as possible, the

17     Prosecution endeavoured to go to Serbia and sit down with a number of its

18     insider witnesses and produce a so-called 89(F) statement that could be

19     tendered into evidence in written form.  That was shortly before

20     Rule 92 ter was created, so at that time we were still working with

21     Rule 98(F).

22             So the procedure was usually before my colleague,

23     Mr. Pastore-Stocchi, and I left The Hague in June of 2006, because this

24     witness had two prior statements, our intention was simply to put the two

25     of them together in a coherent fashion and then create an 89(F) statement

Page 9738

 1     from the two consolidated statements.  So either before we left The Hague

 2     and travelled to Belgrade or shortly after we arrived in Belgrade - I

 3     simply can't recall which - I would have done that.  I would have taken

 4     Microsoft Word versions of the two English prior statements and merged

 5     them in a format that appeared to me to be organised and coherent and

 6     comprehensible.

 7             At the same time, then, once that was done, I would have asked

 8     either a language assistant here in the OTP or an interpreter in the

 9     Belgrade field office then to produce a B/C/S version of that draft

10     statement, that draft 89(F) statement.

11             It was also part of our system at that time, the intention was to

12     create simultaneously a statement in English and a statement in B/C/S,

13     because we believed that since we were going to file a motion seeking the

14     admission of these written witness statements into evidence, the very

15     best evidence would be a written statement in the language of the

16     witness.

17             And so for that mission, we arranged not to work with just one

18     interpreter, but we worked with two interpreters simultaneously, and we

19     would sit in the same conference room in the Belgrade field office, in

20     the basement, and I would -- at that time, I was manning the computer,

21     and I would be -- I would have the computer with the draft English 89(F)

22     statement in front of me, the consolidated statement; and we would have

23     an interpreter interpreting verbally, and then we would have the second

24     interpreter sitting across the table with another computer, working on

25     the B/C/S version of the statement.

Page 9739

 1             And we then went with the witness -- we -- when the witness

 2     arrived, and we did this with all of the witnesses on that -- on that

 3     particular mission, and I believe all of the witnesses that we took 89(F)

 4     or 92 ter statements from, we explained to them what we were doing and

 5     why; we explained to them that we hoped that by producing this more final

 6     consolidated statement, that we would be able to tender this written

 7     witness statement in writing, and that would not only save time for the

 8     Court, but it would also save time and energy and stress for the witness.

 9             And then we proceeded to go over the draft statement.  I would be

10     reading it in English and the interpreter would be interpreting each

11     line.  Then we would go over the draft statement, line by line, paragraph

12     by paragraph, page by page.  And any time the witness felt that a

13     modification needed to be made, it would be made.  When the witness

14     provided some additional information, that additional information would

15     be incorporated into the statement.

16             Some of the -- in terms of additional information, as I'm sure

17     you're aware, in virtually all of these 89(F) or 92 ter statements, at

18     the end we created what we called the exhibit table, because again as a

19     manner of trying to expedite matters, we showed certain exhibits to each

20     witness and we created a table where we recorded which item we were

21     showing to the witness and any -- and any comments that the witness could

22     make about the particular item, so that we would have that information as

23     well incorporated into the witness's written witness statement.

24             During this process, of course, I was sitting across the table

25     from the interpreter who was working on the B/C/S version, and we were

Page 9740

 1     constantly in communication, where I was explaining, "This is the change

 2     I'm making in this sentence, this is the additional sentence I'm adding,"

 3     et cetera, et cetera, so the interpreter would make the exact same change

 4     or addition in the B/C/S version.

 5             At the end of that process, the -- we would have -- the witness

 6     would usually sit with the B/C/S interpreter who was working on the

 7     written version, sit next to her, and as she would go over the statement

 8     on the screen of the computer in front of them, and so again the witness

 9     would have the opportunity not only to hear the statement but to see the

10     words on the computer screen in front of him, and again the entire

11     statement then was reviewed.  The witness had the opportunity then to

12     review the entire statement in his language.  And the witness was again

13     told, "If you see any mistakes, anything you want to change, just tell us

14     and we will change it."

15             After that process was finished and after then we believed we had

16     a final statement, then we had to print out that statement; and again

17     because there was no printer in that basement room, we would have to go

18     upstairs either to the first floor or the second floor and log on to a

19     computer there that was connected to a printer, or ask one of the staff

20     members there to let us interrupt their work so we could print out a

21     document.  We would print out the document then in both languages from a

22     USB stick, and we'd bring the printed hard copies back down to the

23     conference room.  And then we would ask the witness, including this

24     witness, then, to please sign and initial the statement.

25             That is, in summary, how the 2006 statement was created.

Page 9741

 1             You'll probably notice that in addition to the normal signature

 2     line that you usually see at the end of an ICTY statement, in these 89(F)

 3     or 92 ter statements, we added usually two additional signature lines;

 4     one at the end of the narrative text.  There is usually a line saying

 5     words to the effect:  "I declare that the foregoing paragraphs -- the

 6     text of the foregoing paragraphs are true and correct," and so we would

 7     ask the witness to sign there as well.  And then usually there was a

 8     similar sentence above or below the exhibit table where we asked the

 9     witness to confirm that, you know, "I have seen these exhibits and I

10     confirm that my comments here for each exhibit are true and correct."

11             So that, Your Honours, in summary is how the 89(F) statement

12     produced in June 2006 was taken, and then I only saw this witness one

13     more time in October of that year.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Thank you very

15     much.  As far as I'm concerned, I don't have any more questions for you.

16     Let me ask my colleagues if they have any questions for you.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, and good morning to you, Mr. Saxon.  I

18     just have two clarifying questions.

19             The first question is the question about the copies.  The witness

20     told us that he was not given a copy, and from what he said, I understood

21     that the usual procedure was not to give copies to witnesses who have

22     given statements.  Why is that?

23        A.   Your Honour, at that time and still today, it has always been my

24     understanding that the policy and practice of the Office of the

25     Prosecutor is not to give a copy of a witness statement to the witness,

Page 9742

 1     particularly in the case, Your Honour, of so-called sensitive insider

 2     witnesses.  And that policy exists because of the belief that by leaving

 3     a copy of such a sensitive document in the witness's possession could

 4     actually create safety and security problems potentially for that

 5     witness.  And so that is why, Your Honour, as a matter of policy and my

 6     practice, except perhaps in some extremely rare or exceptional

 7     situations, I have never provided a copy of the statement to the witness.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  That explains it well.

 9             My second question relates to the possibility for the witness to

10     acquaint himself very closely and intimately with his statement, and my

11     question goes to whether, after you had printed it out in the B/C/S

12     version, which I understood was only done in 2006, at that time the

13     witness would have had a chance to sit together with the interpreter on

14     the screen and work, himself, through the text once again before it was

15     finally printed out.  Then you would take it upstairs and bring it down

16     in a printed format.  Would he then, once again, be given a chance to sit

17     down quietly and then read through the text before signing it?

18        A.   Your Honour, to the best of my recollection, the witness had that

19     opportunity to review that hard copy of the B/C/S version while it was in

20     front of him.  Do I have a memory that the witness in this particular

21     case did that or did that carefully?  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I simply

22     don't recall.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's well enough.  Thanks.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I have a question for

25     Mr. Saxon -- rather, Madam Dahl or anybody from the OTP.  Do you have a

Page 9743

 1     question of Mr. Saxon?

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  With the Court's permission, perhaps one or two

 3     questions, if that's okay.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Biersay:

 5        Q.   Mr. Saxon, could you tell the Court whether or not you had been

 6     able to review the statements that you just mentioned specifically the

 7     one from November 17, 2004.  Did you have an opportunity to review it and

 8     ascertain whether or not the statement was a correct reflection of what

 9     the witness told you?

10        A.   Yes, I reviewed that statement last night, and the answer to both

11     of your questions is "yes."

12        Q.   And with respect to the second statement that you mention, the

13     one dated 21 June 2006, did you have an opportunity to review that

14     statement as well?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   And was it an accurate reflection of what the witness told you on

17     that date?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Could you describe to the Trial Chamber the circumstances under

20     which you met with the witness again in October of 2006?  I think you

21     mentioned that to the Court.

22        A.   I'm wondering whether we should do that in private session.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, with the Court's permission, could we

24     discuss this matter --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

Page 9744

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object.  I oppose this.  There is

 2     absolutely no reason to go into private session.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Objection rejected.  We are

 4     going in closed session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9745











11 Page 9745 redacted. Private session.















Page 9746

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, do you have a

 4     question for Mr. Saxon?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have questions, but before that I

 8     demand to review the decision to pass into private session and that this

 9     part of the session be subsequently made public.  I have several reasons

10     for that, but now I will first ask questions that had nothing to do with

11     private session.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a moment, please.  Let me

13     consult with my fellow Judges.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The Trial Chamber maintains

16     its decision, according to which that portion will remain in private

17     session, the portion that was mentioned earlier about the meeting in

18     October.

19             You may proceed.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

21        Q.   Mr. Saxon, when on the 21st of June you spoke to

22     Mr. Nebojsa Stojanovic in 2006, how long was this interview, this

23     conversation?

24        A.   I don't recall specifically how long it was.  I don't have the

25     statement in front of me.  To the best of my recollection, the interview

Page 9747

 1     was completed within one working day, to the best of my recollection.

 2        Q.   That means it began sometime in the morning and lasted 'til late

 3     in the afternoon; correct?

 4        A.   To the best of my recollection, yes.  It's possible it may have

 5     lasted into -- into the early evening, but I don't have any recollection

 6     of that.

 7        Q.   Did you previously make that so-called consolidated statement

 8     based on his prior two statements?  And by "previously," I mean before

 9     beginning the new interview with Mr. Stojanovic.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, it is not a

11     consolidated statement.  It's a statement that was signed, but don't say

12     "the so-called."

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the right to challenge the

14     authenticity of that statement, because the witness did so himself.  But

15     even if the witness hadn't done it, I have the right that it's a

16     so-called statement, an alleged statement.  It is signed, but the witness

17     denies that he was aware of what he was signing, and that was on the

18     table all day yesterday.  So in my eyes, it is a so-called, alleged

19     statement, and I'm not going to accept your suggestion.  I'm still going

20     to call this statement an alleged statement, and you can use whatever

21     sanctions you see fit against me.

22        Q.   So, Mr. Saxon, did you make previously that alleged statement,

23     consolidated statement, based on the prior two alleged statements of this

24     witness?

25        A.   Well, as I testified just a few minutes ago, yes, I created a

Page 9748

 1     draft -- prior to the start of this interview, I created a draft both in

 2     English and in B/C/S which merged the two prior statements which the

 3     witness had given.  And with that draft, amalgamated statement, if you

 4     will, single statement, we then proceeded to review that with the witness

 5     in both languages.

 6        Q.   Why did you then need one whole day, from the morning until early

 7     evening, to speak to that witness, if you had a ready-made draft and then

 8     you were discussing the draft?  That draft is on 20 pages.  Those 20

 9     pages, if nothing was in dispute, could have been done with in exactly

10     one hour.  It doesn't take more than a few minutes to read one page, even

11     if you read slowly.  Why did you need all day to speak to that witness if

12     you had already prepared the draft and if he had really given those two

13     statements?  Something must have been in dispute so it took all day to

14     discuss; correct?

15        A.   No, that's not correct.  The reason why we took up to one whole

16     day, it may have been a few hours less -- as I say, I can't recall

17     specifically the time it took -- is that because we were trying to work

18     very carefully.  We were trying to create a statement which we then

19     expected to tender into evidence in the -- in this trial, as evidence in

20     this trial, and we believed that it was our obligation then to work as

21     carefully and as meticulously as possible.  And so that is precisely why,

22     before the interview began, I created these two drafts, one in English

23     and one in B/C/S.  That's precisely why we took the extra effort and, if

24     I may say so, the extra expense of having two interpreters working with

25     us all of the time, so that we would go line by line, page by page, over

Page 9749

 1     the statement with the witness.  And that takes a lot of time, in

 2     particular when everything is being translated from one language and back

 3     to another language, and in particular when we are discussing complicated

 4     events that occurred many years ago, which of course the witness, being a

 5     very articulate person, would want to explain to us.  And he did so, and

 6     we would have questions, and he would respond to them.  And that

 7     procedure cannot be done quickly.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well, Mr. Seselj.  You

 9     may put your questions.  Very few questions were put.  You still have

10     five minutes to finish your cross-examination.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for limiting me in this

12     way.  I must conclude that you really don't want the truth to be known.

13     That's up to you.

14        Q.   Mr. Saxon, since you have been working on this case for years,

15     you must have been aware of some basic facts related to the operations in

16     Vukovar and Eastern Slavonija and some basic facts regarding the Serbian

17     political arena; correct?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The witness has only come to

19     talk about the terms and conditions in which the written statements were

20     signed.  He doesn't have to answer any other question which has got

21     nothing to do with this.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is something that goes to the

23     contents of the statement.  I'm interested --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The witness will come and

25     discuss the content of the summary later on.  This witness here today is

Page 9750

 1     not to mention anything else.  This witness is only here today to talk

 2     about the form of the statements and the way in which it was taken.  He's

 3     not here to answer any questions about Vukovar or anything else.

 4             In addition, he has a vested interest in this.  He's a member of

 5     the OTP; therefore, he shouldn't answer any of these questions.

 6             So only put your questions on the way in which the statements

 7     were taken.  Why did the previous witness say that his statement wasn't

 8     read back to him in his own language, or that the text of his statement

 9     does not match what he said?  We are only interested in this and nothing

10     else.

11             MS. SESELJ:  [Interpretation]

12        Q.   When, during that interview, did you tell the witness that his

13     statement will be under Rule 89(F), that is, directly tendered into

14     evidence, and that he would not need to come to The Hague?  When, during

15     the interview, did you tell him that?

16        A.   First of all, your question has a premise in it that is

17     incorrect.  We did not tell this witness that he would not need to come

18     to The Hague.  What we explained to the witness was we were trying to use

19     a method by which we could tender his evidence in written form, thereby

20     shortening, perhaps even eliminating, the need for direct examination.

21     But, of course, that would not eliminate the need -- the witness to be

22     cross-examined, and so we never told the witness or any of these

23     witnesses that they would not need to come to The Hague.  What we told

24     them was that this was a procedure which hopefully would shorten the

25     length of their testimony here before this Tribunal.

Page 9751

 1             We explained this at the start of this interview.  I can't recall

 2     whether we precisely mentioned Rule 89(F) or we simply used it in terms

 3     of, "The Rules allow now this procedure and this is what we're trying to

 4     do."  I can't recall whether I specifically used the term "89(F)."  I may

 5     not have, because I probably didn't think that that would make any --

 6     that that would be particularly important for the witness, the number of

 7     the Rule.

 8        Q.   Mr. Saxon, a moment ago here in the courtroom, you stated, when

 9     explaining the reasons for such a wide application of the Rule 89(F) in

10     2006, that one of the reasons was to save time.  Then you mentioned some

11     other reasons, and then you said in order to avoid -- to spare the

12     witnesses the stress of coming here to The Hague.  You said that here

13     some 15 minutes ago.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   No.  I believe what I said some minutes ago was that we were

15     trying to use this procedure in order to reduce the stress that the

16     witnesses would have here in The Hague; that is, by shortening the length

17     of their testimony.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I demand from the Trial Chamber to

19     find that portion of the transcript and to control the translation made

20     here, because I noted exactly "to spare the witnesses the stress of

21     coming here to The Hague."  That's what I heard in interpretation.  And

22     while the Registry is looking for that portion of the record, I would

23     like to ask two more questions.

24        Q.   Mr. Saxon, you had to know that Rule 89(F) did not envisage --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Perhaps Ms. Biersay can answer

Page 9752

 1     this.  Ms. Biersay.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I believe it appears at

 3     the very end of page 5 and into the beginning of page 6.  And if I may:

 4             "... we explained to them that we hoped that by producing this

 5     more final consolidated statement, that we would be able to tender this

 6     written statement -- witness statement in writing, and that would not

 7     only save time for the Court, but it would also save time and energy and

 8     stress for the witness."

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, that is what's on the

10     transcript.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I demand that the

12     audio-recording in the Serbian language be found, because I insist that

13     it was interpreted to me "to spare the witnesses the stress of coming

14     here."  That's what I heard in interpretation, and I insist on that.

15        Q.   Mr. Saxon, you are aware that the application of Rule 89(F) never

16     implied the bringing of witnesses here in cross-examination.  That was

17     envisaged by Rule 92 bis, if one of the parties insisted on

18     cross-examination; correct?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, this is a legal

20     debate on Rule 89(F).  We're not going to discuss this now.  You know

21     that we had 92 ter after that.  89(F) is still a part of the Rules of

22     Procedure.  It's not because an 89(F) motion is filed that there is no

23     cross-examination.  That settles that.

24             If you have one last question to put.  I'm not talking about

25     legal matters or the content of the statement, but of the form of the

Page 9753

 1     statement, then you may put a question, because the only reason that the

 2     witness is here today, when there is a witness of the Court, the witness

 3     comes to testify about a very limited agenda, and he is here to answer

 4     questions on that very limited agenda.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more question in

 6     relation to what the witness had stated in private session.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Let's move into private

 8     session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9754











11 Page 9754 redacted. Private session.















Page 9755

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Saxon, I would like to

 6     thank you.  So you were asked to come yesterday.  Under the

 7     circumstances, you know, of course, if you had been among members of the

 8     OTP yesterday, I would have asked you to give us your answers directly,

 9     so I did ask you to come very quickly yesterday, and I hadn't factored in

10     those questions which were raised by Ms. Dahl.  But you've come here, and

11     I thank you for having answered all our questions, and you may get back

12     to your office and deal with matters you need to deal with.

13             Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Madam Usher can now bring the

17     witness into the courtroom.

18             Mr. Marcussen, I'm getting rather worried about the time we have.

19     Please go to the point, when you ask your questions, so that Mr. Seselj

20     has two hours for his cross-examination.  I would like to finish at a

21     quarter to 2:00.

22             I don't know how much time you had left theoretically.  The

23     Registrar will tell us in a moment.

24             It's going to be very short, because you had an hour left.  One

25     hour plus two hours equals three hours, and we don't quite have three

Page 9756

 1     hours left, since we will have two breaks.  If you could bring it down to

 2     45 minutes, that would be perfect.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I will make an effort, Your Honour.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Good morning, sir.  I

 6     apologise for having made you wait.  You may sit down.

 7             The Prosecutor will resume his examination-in-chief.

 8                           WITNESS:  NEBOJSA STOJANOVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Marcussen:  [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic.  I would like to give you a copy of

12     some documents, if the usher would be kind enough to give that to you.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, what I have included in that little folder is a

14     copy in your language of the three statements that we talked about

15     yesterday, and I've given them a tab, so that tab number 1 is your

16     statement from August 2004; tab number 2 is your statement from November

17     2004; and tab number 3 is your statement from 2006.

18             And, Your Honours, I will be asking the witness questions about

19     various parts of his three statements today, and so I'm going to do it in

20     this manner to expedite the proceedings today.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, you testified yesterday that you never received a

22     call-up order.  Do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Would you look, please, at your statement from 2004?  So that

25     would be the one that's under tab number 1.  And look at paragraph 8.

Page 9757

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  If the usher would like to call up the document,

 3     it is 65 ter number 7265.

 4        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, would you please read the first sentence of

 5     paragraph 8?

 6        A.   "In July or August 1991, as a reservist of the Guards Motorised

 7     Armoured Regiment, I received a call-up for a military drill from VP,

 8     that is, military post 4795, through the usual service of military

 9     call-up papers."

10        Q.   Are you telling the Court that you didn't receive that document

11     that is described in the statement?

12        A.   It's an erroneous statement.  I said that yesterday.  I never

13     received a call-up from the army to take part in the war.

14        Q.   And if you would look at the next two paragraphs, paragraph 8 and

15     paragraph 9.  Would it be correct if I summarised this as you explaining

16     how you were sent to Bogojevo and then to Erdut, and then at paragraph 10

17     you say that you stayed in Erdut for 20 days?  Is that correct that's on

18     the statement there?

19        A.   That is written in the statement.

20        Q.   Would you now please go to tab number 2, so that is your

21     statement from November 2004, and that is 65 ter number 7264.  And there

22     I'd like you to look at paragraphs 13, 14 and 15.

23             Now, you say there -- oops, I'm sorry.

24        A.   I can't find my way there.

25        Q.   If you look at tab number 2, yes.

Page 9758

 1        A.   Number 2, yes.  Which number?

 2        Q.   If you look at paragraph number 13, that should be on page 5 of

 3     this statement.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You say there that:

 6             "Regarding paragraph 8 of my previous statement," that's the

 7     statement we just looked at, "I state the following additional facts."

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And then you say that you were at Bubanj Potok barracks, and you

10     give various details about this particular paragraph; is that correct?

11        A.   It's not correct.  I've never been there.

12        Q.   All right.  And so in this paragraph, it says:

13             "Regarding paragraph 8 of my previous statement ..."

14             Now, to me that sounds like you have been discussing paragraph 8

15     of your previous statement with the people who took this statement.

16     Isn't that correct?

17        A.   I stated yesterday and earlier today, and I stand by it, that the

18     statement I gave the first time and the second time are different from

19     what is recorded here in my language, and I don't even know how it was

20     translated into English because I don't know English.

21        Q.   So you're saying that this -- something else was read back to you

22     in November 2004; is that what you're telling the Court?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then afterwards you were asked to sign the front of the

25     statement and put your initials on all the other pages?

Page 9759

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, let's look, then -- if you would go to tab 3 now of your

 3     statement -- of the bundle of material that I gave you.  That is your

 4     statement from 2006, and there I'd like you to look at paragraph 17

 5     first.

 6        A.   I see it.

 7        Q.   Would you read out the first sentence of that paragraph again,

 8     please?  Would you read the first sentence of paragraph 17, please, to

 9     the Court?

10        A.   "In July or August 1991, as a reservist of the JNA Guards

11     Motorised Armoured Regiment, I received call-up papers for a military

12     exercise for military post 4795, through the usual military call-up

13     service."

14        Q.   And then you describe, would that be correct, further down in the

15     statement again how you went from the barracks and then to Bogojevo, and

16     from there you went to Erdut?

17        A.   I never received call-up papers.  That is easily verifiable

18     through this military post number, through my Municipal/Territorial

19     Defence in Vranje, where I was at the time.

20        Q.   My question was whether or not --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I demand that you

22     caution the Prosecutor that he should not speak so harshly to the

23     witness.  His conduct -- his conduct has been inappropriate of late.  He

24     should not be sniping at the witness.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen.

Page 9760

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, my question was whether further down in this

 3     paragraph you describe again how you went from the barracks to Bogojevo

 4     and then on to Erdut.

 5        A.   Yes, that's what's written here.

 6        Q.   But what you are testifying to the Court under oath today is that

 7     you never told this to the Prosecution?  You did not tell this to the

 8     Prosecution in August 2004, you did not tell this to the Prosecution in

 9     November 2004, and you did not say this to the Prosecution in June 2006;

10     is that what you want the Court to believe?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you've been trying here, and that is what I'd

12     like to inform the Presiding Judge of -- you are exerting pressure on me

13     to say that I did something and that I was at that place at that given

14     point in time.  That can easily be checked in Serbia.  I had never been

15     called up in that period of time, nor did I respond to that command.  I

16     was not there.  I was a volunteer of the SNO, so I never received call-up

17     papers from a military post code.  Why would I make such a statement, in

18     this statement, that I reported to Bubanj Potok and went further on?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, what you say may be

20     right, but it also may be wrong.  We are endeavouring to ascertain what

21     is right and what is not.

22             In paragraph 17, we have something.  You say the opposite.  Very

23     well, but paragraph 17 is something that you signed in your own language.

24     We can see your signature in the document, and that's the problem.  You

25     signed the document.

Page 9761

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I did sign it.  Yesterday I

 2     told you in which way.  If there is a way, I've already said.  I withdraw

 3     all my signatures from all these statements, because 90 per cent of this

 4     statement is inaccurate.  And I state that with full material

 5     responsibility and every other responsibility, that I was not there at

 6     the time, and I was not a member of military post code 479, or rather I

 7     never received any call-up papers to participate.  Even less was I at the

 8     Bubanj Potok barracks.  That can be established very easily.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Well, we take note of what

10     you're saying.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:

13        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, would you go back to tab 1, please, again.  So

14     that would be to the first statement.

15             Yesterday, you testified that you were in Erdut, but that you

16     were there in October of 1991?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you stand by that today?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Would you look at paragraph 11 of your statement, please, of the

21     one that you have in front of you now.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   There you say that you remember that Arkan was in Erdut roughly

24     in August or September 2000 -- sorry, 1991, don't you?

25        A.   The statement, yes.

Page 9762

 1        Q.   Now, if we go to tab 2, that is your statement from November.

 2        A.   Yes.  What's the number?

 3        Q.   Sorry, I've lost my page.  At paragraph 16, you give further

 4     details about Arkan and what you saw with him; is that right?

 5        A.   I'm sorry, what was the number; 16?

 6        Q.   Yes.  But, actually, maybe the point is better made if we move on

 7     to the next statement.  Sorry.  Maybe we can leave this particular one

 8     and move to the one -- the statement that's under tab 3, just to make it

 9     shorter.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  In paragraph 16, there

11     is no reference to Arkan and no reference to Erdut.  Please do not allow

12     the Prosecutor to just gloss over this.  This is not contained in the

13     paragraph that he referred to.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  In paragraph 16 of the

15     November statement, there's no mention of Arkan.  There may be some

16     confusion.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Correct, that's paragraph 17.  But I think the

18     more interesting issue is the issue of the dates, and so that's why I'm

19     suggesting that we move on to this.  I'm not trying to gloss over

20     anything.

21        Q.   If you would look at your 2006 statement, which is under

22     tab number 3, Mr. Stojanovic.

23        A.   What's the number?

24        Q.   Yeah, and then paragraph number 23.  On your copy, I think it is

25     page 9 of the statement.

Page 9763

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   There, I believe you say that you recall Arkan arrived in Erdut

 3     around August or September.  Did you say that?

 4        A.   That is what is written in this statement, but I've never seen

 5     that.

 6        Q.   You told us yesterday you provided the Office of the Prosecutor

 7     three photographs when you met with the Office of the Prosecutor the

 8     first time to give a statement.  Who are on those photographs?  We can

 9     call them up, but maybe you can just tell us who was on them.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Am I correct that Arkan is on these photographs?

12        A.   I don't see any photographs.

13        Q.   Sorry, I was asking if you remembered the photographs.

14             Would the usher please call up 65 ter number 4069, please.

15        A.   I see this photograph.

16        Q.   What is this photograph?

17        A.   These are the fighters who were at Vinarija.

18        Q.   And are they Arkan's men?

19        A.   I think they are.  I got that picture during those few days while

20     I was in Erdut, when we mistakenly received the command to go to Bogojevo

21     and Erdut.

22        Q.   Right.  Who took that picture?

23        A.   I have no idea.

24        Q.   Didn't you take the pictures?

25        A.   No.  I went to the frontline.  I wasn't a photographer.  I wasn't

Page 9764

 1     a military photographer, either.

 2        Q.   Would you look at -- towards the end of the statement you have in

 3     front of you, at page 20 of the statement that you have open now, the

 4     2006 statement.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very briefly, Witness, we have

 6     a photo in front of us.  Were you the one who gave it to the OTP?  Do you

 7     agree with that or not?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, yes, because I got

 9     it and then I gave it.  Yes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:

12        Q.   Now, could you look at page 20 of the statement that you have

13     open now?  That's your 2006 statement, and that would be -- it's on the

14     screen now.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And can you see there, there is some -- there's a table and it

17     has some numbers in it, and under number 4 --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   -- it describes -- under number 5, it describes one picture?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... it says:

22             "I took these pictures.  You can see Arkan."

23             And on the other one, it says:

24             "I took the pictures."

25             Is that right?

Page 9765

 1        A.   That is what is written here, but I did not take any pictures.

 2     I'm sorry that I didn't bring along a photograph that I received as a

 3     memento then, when I and Mr. Arkan had our picture taken.  What was I

 4     supposed to write then?  I took my own picture with Mr. Arkan?  I'm going

 5     to submit it to the Court tomorrow -- or, rather, I'm going to submit it

 6     to the Court.  I haven't submitted it now.  So it's from that period, so

 7     what should I write, I and Mr. Zjelko Raznatovic, Arkan and I took the

 8     picture?

 9        Q.   That's not the picture we're talking about.  We're talking about

10     the three pictures you gave to the OTP.

11             Now, it also gives the date -- it also gives the date that the

12     photograph was taken, doesn't it?  It says "September 1991" in the second

13     part of the table?

14        A.   I've said that I do not stand by some of the information

15     contained in this statement because there are some illogical things;

16     namely, that I was there in that period, let alone give such a statement.

17     I got these pictures, I mean, as a memento, and I gave those pictures, as

18     such, to the OTP.

19        Q.   So in August 2004, you were interviewed by the Office of the

20     Prosecutor.  You provided three pictures to the Office of the Prosecutor

21     and some articles, and you signed a statement in which you said you were

22     in Erdut in August/September 1991, but that is not actually what you told

23     the Prosecution and something else was read back to you; that's what

24     you're saying?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9766

 1        Q.   And then for some reason the same thing happened again in 2006 --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, at this juncture I

 3     have to read to you Rule 91 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, first

 4     paragraph.  This is what the Rule says:

 5             "ex officio or at the request of the party, a Chamber may warn a

 6     witness of the duty to tell the truth, and the consequences that may

 7     result for a failure to do so."

 8             So you are advised now that a witness who gives certain

 9     statements under oath, and if the statements are erroneous, that they may

10     be prosecuted for perjury.  And if I'm telling you this, it's because

11     I've got a material element, which is the one you have in front of you.

12     You have the two photos with Arkan, and in your language we see:  "I have

13     taken these photos."  You can see Arkan in them.  That's photo number 4.

14     And in photo number 5 it is written:  "I am the one who took the photos."

15             This document was signed by you.  Now you say the opposite.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling the truth, Your Honour.

17             First of all, I didn't carry a camera and I couldn't take any

18     pictures.  I got those pictures from these men who were there in Erdut,

19     during those days when we had been mistakenly sent there.  I got them by

20     way of a memento.  That's the way it was.  That can be checked easily, so

21     there.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  It could be a problem with

23     languages, because I see "I took" in English.  In your language, when you

24     mean to say that you are the one who photographs, does that mean that you

25     got the photo from somebody or that you used a camera to take a picture?

Page 9767

 1     What do you say, in your language, to say either, "I received a

 2     photograph," or, "I took a photograph"?  What word do you use in your

 3     language.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I got" or "I took" as we say in

 5     Serbian jargon, these photographs, because I didn't have a camera and I

 6     didn't even know how to take pictures.  It is illogical for me to be

 7     carrying a camera to the frontline.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Look at the words written in

 9     your language under number 4.  I see "ja sam snimio."  Can you read

10     what's written there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I took these photographs.

12     Arkan can be seen in them.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The interpreter is telling me

14     that both meanings can exist.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, it is unequivocal that in

16     English it's -- in Serbian, "snimio."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  It says:  "I took these

18     pictures," so in Serbian that means, "I took those photographs," as in

19     taken away.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, what you say adds

21     nothing to what I've said, because initially I used or I mentioned the

22     English word "I took," and then I shifted to your language, and the

23     interpreters confirmed that you can have both meanings.  So there it is.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  In the English transcript, it's --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  One moment.  The interpreters

Page 9768

 1     are telling me that both meanings, taking a photograph or taking a

 2     recording, but not receiving either of them.

 3             So as far as you can remember, when you used those words, when

 4     you uttered them, did you mean to say that you'd received them from

 5     somebody or that you had used a camera?  What did you mean to say?  Did

 6     you use the camera to take a photo or just were you handed over a photo?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received it and took it, yes.  I

 8     noted in my previous remarks that I took those photographs.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, as in took from someone.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the best thing would

11     be for the interpreter to interpret for you now.  "I took the

12     photograph."  Let them translate this into English.  "I took the

13     photographs."  Have them translate that for you into English.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We'll check.

15             So say in your language, "I have received the photographs," and

16     we'll see what the interpreters from the English booth are going to say.

17     So please say that, those words.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received photographs.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]  Can I see the B/C/S version,

20     please?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  So the English word is "I

22     received" and not "I took," so there is a difference.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am warning you,

25     the witness alternatively said, "I received or took photographs."  When

Page 9769

 1     it says "dobio sam," it's "I received," and when it says "uzeo sam," then

 2     it's "I took" in English.  It doesn't mean that he took the photograph as

 3     in taking a picture.  He could have taken it like seeing a photograph on

 4     the table and taking it away.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  When you say "I took," were

 6     you given the photographs?  When you say "I took," one could say you

 7     yourself took the photographs with a camera, or, as Mr. Seselj said, you

 8     took a photo that was on the table or from somebody's hands.  What did

 9     you mean to say if you used the words that was translated into English as

10     "I took"?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I said that I had received

12     these photos from the man who had taken the pictures.  I have another

13     photograph at home, where I had my picture taken with Zjelko.  So this

14     same man gave me these photographs as a memento.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question, witness.  Let

16     me go back after all to the statement, to the 2006 statement.  Please

17     tell us what the word, I'm sorry for my pronunciation, "ja sam snimio."

18     What does that mean?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I means to take pictures, record,

20     whatever.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  But I think that ultimately

23     you said that Zjelko took a photo of you, and Zjelko is the one who gave

24     you a photograph; is that so?  He took the photo where you are with

25     Arkan.  He took the photo, and he's the one who gave you that photograph

Page 9770

 1     in which you can see Arkan's group with a flag?  Is that what you said?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is not my statement.

 3     Zjelko could not have taken the pictures.  There was a man, as I already

 4     said, Stole.  He's the one who took the pictures, and he's the one who's

 5     authorised; and he gave me the pictures, and he also gave me a picture

 6     where I had my picture taken with Mr. Zjelko.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  It is Stole who took the

 8     photo, the photographer was Stole?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Stole was the photographer,

11     and he gave you the photographs?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the one where I had my

13     picture taken with him, and also he gave me a few other photographs, the

14     ones that I liked, sort of, to take away as a memento.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI:  [Interpretation] Sorry.

16             Once again, in 2006 you certified that you had made the

17     statements contained in the prior statement, and that was not true.  So

18     either you're not telling the truth today or you did not tell the truth

19     when you confirmed each and every page in 2006.

20             Could you tell us when you are not telling the truth?  Did you

21     not tell the truth in 2006 or now?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, I said yesterday and

23     I repeat today, these statements contain incorrect information.  I repeat

24     today, under oath, that I never took or made any photographs of

25     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, and the men up there in Erdut.  I confirm that

Page 9771

 1     now.  I never could have taken any pictures.  I did not have a camera.  I

 2     received these pictures.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Please proceed, Mr. Marcussen.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 5        Q.   Yesterday, we talked -- you testified about Kameni, and I asked

 6     you whether or not Kameni had ever issued -- I asked you whether Kameni

 7     had ever issued any orders to kill Croatians.  And we also talked about

 8     whether or not you had ever seen any SRS members kill Croatians in

 9     Vukovar.  And the Presiding Judge had a number of questions to you about

10     whether or not you had seen SRS volunteers in Vukovar.  And I believe, if

11     I can summarise your answers, basically they were you had not seen any

12     SRS members in Vukovar; therefore, you could not have seen them kill

13     anyone.  And you had never heard -- or heard about an order from Kameni

14     to kill Croatians.  Is that a fair summary of what you said yesterday?

15        A.   I say today as well, before this Court, that over there at the

16     frontline, where we were in Vukovar, I did not know who the members of

17     the Serbian Radical Party were.  Even less did I know Kameni.  Perhaps I

18     knew him by sight when this rally took place concerning the distribution

19     of money.  But personally, I was never in his presence.  I state that

20     before the Court, under oath.

21        Q.   I'd like you to please look at your August 2004 statement, so

22     that's tab 1 again.  And the paragraph I'd like you to look at is on --

23     or the paragraphs are on page 7, and it's paragraph 26 and 27.

24             The first sentence of paragraph 26 is:

25             "Kameni issued an order to kill all Croatians who carried

Page 9772

 1     weapons."

 2             And the last sentence is:

 3             "Kameni issued, himself --" sorry:

 4             "Kameni himself issued our group, which was guarding houses, to

 5     shoot all Croatians we came across on the spot."

 6             That's what the statement says, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 27, the second sentence says:

 9             "I personally witnessed Seselj's Chetniks from Kameni's group

10     beat up and slaughter four or five Croatian civilians, men, who had

11     surrendered."

12             Doesn't it say that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, in your November 2004 statement, where you provided various

15     clarifications, I believe you talked about this again at paragraphs 19

16     and 20.  Would you please look under tab 2, where that statement is?

17     That is, again page 7, I think, in your copy.  It says:

18             "Regarding paragraph 26 of the previous statements, I now state

19     the following additional facts:  I confirm that Kameni ordered our group

20     to kill Croatians, no matter whether or not they were armed.  Now I also

21     remember that in Vukovar five Croatian men who had surrendered and handed

22     over their weapons were captured and killed by SRS volunteers.  I

23     witnessed this incident with my eyes, and with me 20 other volunteers

24     did."

25             Isn't that what it says?

Page 9773

 1        A.   It's not 20 others, but 20 volunteers.

 2        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  But other than that, I think I

 3     read this paragraph correctly, didn't I?

 4        A.   Yes.  Again, I say I am here under oath, and I say we never had a

 5     direct order from Kameni.  We had our own commander who issued an order

 6     to us to the effect that if the Croats should attack us, we can freely

 7     defend ourselves, we can even shoot, I mean, if there were to be that

 8     kind of situation.  That was inevitable, because now we were at the

 9     frontline, guarding these houses.  We were guarding these houses so that

10     these Croats would not, during the course of the day -- I mean, the

11     people who were armed and who were fighting against the Serbs.  So there

12     were two sides involved there.  They should not take up the houses that

13     we were guarding.  And of course we were guarding them with weapons.

14             I never received a command to the effect that I should take a

15     rifle and kill a Croat, let alone someone who was without a weapon.  I

16     was a plain soldier there.

17        Q.   Right.  I just asked you about the contents of your statement.

18             I'd like you to go now to your 2006 statement, so that is again

19     under tab number 3.  And there I'd like you to look at page 14,

20     paragraph 40.  Would you read that paragraph to the Court, please?

21        A.   "Kameni issued an order to kill all Croats who carried weapons.

22     Volunteers engaged in cleansing the area told us that when they found

23     Croats, they killed them on the spot, armed or not, because they did not

24     have the time to take them to Velepromet, where there was a collection

25     centre and a prison.  Kameni himself ordered our group, which guarded

Page 9774

 1     houses, to execute Croats we found on the spot.  I confirm that Kameni

 2     ordered our group to kill Croats, no matter whether they were armed or

 3     not.  Now I also remember that in Vukovar, five Croatian men who

 4     surrendered and handed over their weapons were captured and killed by SRS

 5     volunteers.  I witnessed this incident with my eyes, and with me 20 other

 6     volunteers did."

 7             Should I go on?

 8        Q.   No, thank you very much.  I think that is quite clear.  So, again

 9     you have, in three consecutive statements, stated the same thing; namely,

10     that Kameni issued orders to kill Croatians and that you witnessed SRS

11     members kill people in Vukovar, which also implies that there were indeed

12     SRS members in Vukovar; isn't that true?

13        A.   Well, it's not true.  I mentioned during my previous remarks that

14     over there at the frontline at Vukovar, we did not know who was a member

15     of what political organisation.  We communicated amongst ourselves, but

16     we were Serbs.  No one --

17        Q.   Yeah, no, I appreciate that.  I just asked you about the

18     statement.

19             Your Honours, I have three more issues I wanted to cover, but

20     I think we are --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Since the Prosecutor is

22     cross-examining a witness who was declared hostile to the OTP, he doesn't

23     have the right to interrupt him when he is giving answers, just like you

24     won't allow me to cut off witnesses when I cross-examine them, when their

25     answers are too lengthy.  Now the Prosecutor didn't have the right to

Page 9775

 1     stop him from providing an explanation.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI:  [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, at any rate, the

 3     Prosecutor had asked a question, and the witness was answering about

 4     something else.  So if he was interrupted, that's for that reason.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Time has come for the break.

 6     You're supposed to have 30 minutes out of the two hours you had

 7     initially.  See whether you can sort of pair it down.

 8             Thank you.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:

13        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, could you please look under tab 1 again of the

14     material that I gave you before.  That's again your August 2004

15     statement.  And if you would look at page 5, please, at paragraph 18.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, yesterday you testified that you had not seen Seselj at

18     Erdut.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, correct.

20        Q.   Do you stand by that today?

21        A.   Yes, I stand by that.

22        Q.   Am I not correct that here at page 5, we have a section devoted

23     to the presence of Mr. Seselj and his volunteers in Erdut?

24        A.   What's that?

25        Q.   Would you say that was inserted into the statement after it had

Page 9776

 1     been read back to you or that was not read back to you in August of 2004?

 2        A.   I am saying that this part of my statement is not my statement.

 3     I said here publicly yesterday that I had no relationship with the

 4     Serbian Radical Party or Mr. Vojislav Seselj.  We were the Serbian

 5     National Revival, and that's how we went there.

 6        Q.   You put your initials on this -- on the bottom of this page, and

 7     just maybe six centimetres above that -- six centimetres above that there

 8     is a heading saying:  "The arrival of Vojislav Seselj and his volunteers

 9     in Erdut."  And you didn't notice that?

10        A.   I said, and I stand by it, I gave an oath, that it was read out

11     to me from the laptop, my whole statement, which is completely different

12     from what I signed, because I trusted the investigators and I signed.  I

13     never even got a single copy of this statement.

14        Q.   And would you go now to tab 2, please, which is your November

15     2004 statement, and there I'd like you to go to page 6 and look at

16     paragraph 17.  And here it says:

17             "Regarding paragraphs 18 and 19 of my previous statement," which

18     is the section about Vojislav Seselj being in Erdut that we just talked

19     about, "I now state the following additional facts."

20             And then you describe how Seselj came to Erdut within the 20 days

21     that you spent there and how he came with red buses, and how you saw

22     Arkan greet Seselj and line up the volunteers, and you describe how that

23     whole thing happened and how Mr. Seselj gave a speech.  That's what's in

24     paragraph 17 that you're looking at now, isn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9777

 1        Q.   Now, let's go to tab number 3, which is your 2006 statement.  And

 2     there I'd like you to look at page 11, paragraph 32.

 3        A.   All right.

 4        Q.   And there, again, we have a paragraph which says:

 5             "Seselj came to Erdut within the 20 days I spent at the winery in

 6     Erdut.  I saw Seselj personally.  His arrival was organised from Belgrade

 7     because they arrived in red buses from Belgrade transport company called

 8     GSP," and so on and so forth.  You go on to describe how he greeted Arkan

 9     and Arkan greeted him, and there was a speech; is that right?

10        A.   In this statement, under paragraph 32, it reads that, but I

11     didn't say that.  There are discrepancies.  I just see that now.  In

12     paragraph 2 under 17, it says a bus came, and here it says three buses

13     came.  There are some illogical things that somebody added.  I wasn't

14     even there.

15        Q.   So, again, you signed three consecutive statements to be used as

16     evidence before an international tribunal, all of which contained

17     information about Seselj being in Erdut, without you ever noticing it?

18        A.   I've never seen that.  Perhaps it could be seen on television,

19     because at that time Radio Television Serbia broadcast all sorts of

20     things.  Can I --

21        Q.   One of the things you said yesterday, and you explained as

22     something that was illogical, was you said that you provided the

23     Prosecution a document which showed that your military service was only

24     from October 1991; right?

25        A.   Yes, correct.

Page 9778

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Would the usher please call up 65 ter

 2     number 2561.

 3             Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you're quite right, it's also attached to

 4     your statement.  Yes, that's the document I'm going to ask you about.

 5     We're just waiting for it to come up on the screen here.

 6        Q.   Now, first of all, you gave this document to the Prosecution in

 7     August 2004, when you gave your first statement; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what is this document?

10        A.   This is a document, as I maybe said yesterday, but maybe not,

11     that all volunteers of any political orientation, the Serbian National

12     Revival, Serbian Renewal Movement, or Serbian Radical Party, or any other

13     political or apolitical orientation had to report to certain commands in

14     a certain area of war operations.  There is a procedure to identify

15     people, to take their military evidentiary specialty, like infantry, tank

16     crews, et cetera, so in that way when I arrived at Sid, I got an official

17     certificate that I was a member of the Serbian -- of the Yugoslav

18     People's Army.

19        Q.   So you're saying that the Prosecution has inserted into your

20     statement that you were called up in July/August and that you were in

21     Erdut in August/September, although that is not true, that was included

22     in your statement, and that to the same statement the Prosecution

23     attached a document which according to you show you were only involved in

24     events in October; is that what you're saying?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9779

 1        Q.   That would seem rather incompetent of the Prosecution, wouldn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   I believe that many things were inserted.  I can't say whether

 4     the Prosecution is competent or not.  It's up to the Court to decide

 5     that.  I brought a document to show where I was located in which period,

 6     at what time.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And this document is a decision that you have been granted

 8     a special retirement benefit; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And isn't it true that that's a special retirement benefit you

11     were given for the period that you -- or the periods that you were at the

12     frontline?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it says that that time should be counted double for the

15     purpose of --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And isn't it a fact that that is because that's how the rules

18     operate, that you are given extra time when you serve at the frontline?

19        A.   Yes, that is regulated by the law.

20        Q.   So this document shows that you were at the frontline between the

21     1st of October, 1991, and the 15th of May, 1992, and also in 1999, but it

22     has nothing to do with whether or not you received a call-up order in

23     July 1991; isn't that right?

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.  You testified yesterday that you did not

Page 9780

 1     see Mr. Seselj in Vukovar; is that correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4        A.   I stand by that.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, just in an effort to make -- save

 6     time, I suspect that the witness's answers are going to be the same, so I

 7     will change the modality here a little bit.

 8        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, isn't it correct that in paragraphs 28 and 29 of

 9     your August 2004, and in paragraph 20 of your November 2004 statement,

10     and in paragraph 42 of your 2006 statement, actually state that you

11     personally saw Mr. Seselj in the Vukovar area, and you even described his

12     uniform, or what he was wearing, rather?

13        A.   I said, and I stand by it, that I had not seen Mr. Seselj in

14     Vukovar.  I heard that he was in Vukovar.  He was not my party leader so

15     that I would approach him or greet him or just to go see him.  I was

16     doing something else on the frontline.  I was not interested in that.

17     And I stand by what I said before this Honourable Court.  I hadn't seen

18     him.  Even the people who were there, who were guarding the houses, were

19     not interested.  They didn't care for Mr. Seselj or anyone else.  They

20     were just concerned with saving their own skins.

21        Q.   Yesterday, you testified that you had never -- you were not a

22     member of the SRS in 1991, and you explained to the Court how you

23     actually were a member of the SNO, and you gave all sort of details about

24     that; isn't that correct?

25        A.   Yes, I said that I was a member of the Serbian National Revival

Page 9781

 1     down there in Serbia, in Vranje.  We formed a municipal and a district

 2     board.  Everyone knows that.

 3        Q.   If you look in paragraph 6 --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small detail.

 5             The French interpretation and the English interpretation are not

 6     exactly the same.  In English, you -- we can read that you were a member

 7     of the SNO, whereas in French I heard that you were the founder of SNO.

 8     So were you a member or were you the founder of that organisation in

 9     Vranje?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I founded that organisation in

11     Vranje.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So it's the English

13     interpretation that was not accurate.  So you were the founding person.

14     Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and we participated in the

16     first elections in the town of Vranje, together with all the other

17     parties that were on the electoral lists at the time.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:

19        Q.   In paragraph 6, the last sentence of paragraph 6 of your November

20     2004 statement, which is under tab 2, but I read it to you, you describe

21     the rally in Vranje, and then you say:

22             "As a result of Seselj's speech, I decided to become an SRS

23     volunteer ."

24             And in paragraph 7, the first sentence is:

25             "I was the first SRS volunteer from Vranje who went to the

Page 9782

 1     front."

 2             And then you describe how you travelled there and so on.  You're

 3     saying that's not correct, that is not what you told the Office of the

 4     Prosecutor?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was never a member in 1991.  I was not a volunteer of the

 6     Serbian Radical Party or a member.  In order to be a volunteer, you had

 7     to be a member of the Serbian Radical Party.  And I went to the war zone

 8     as a member of the Serbian National Revival or, rather, the Serbian

 9     Chetnik Movement which we were fostering.  That was one of our party

10     platforms.

11        Q.   And yet again --

12        A.   One of our objectives.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

14             Witness, but the Serbian Radical Party, did it not also recruit

15     people who were not members of the party; in other words, volunteers who

16     were not members of the party, as far as you know?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I know, first of all, we

18     were never interested in what the opposite side was doing.  We were

19     organising our people.  In our programme, it was stated that volunteers

20     would be tested members of the Serbian National Revival, those who

21     fostered Chetnik movement as one of the Serbian traditions.  We knew

22     about the others, but we didn't know who was a member of the Serbian

23     Radical Party in Vranje, who was a follower, a sympathiser.  We were in

24     conflict in Vranje.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you do not know?

Page 9783

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In fact, I was waiting for the

 3     interpretation.

 4             So you don't know how the Serbian Radical Party recruited its

 5     volunteers; if, for instance, they had to be members of the party or --

 6     you don't know?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We in Vranje, we communicated,

 8     socialised, people from various parties, and I heard that volunteers of

 9     the Serbian Radical Party went away to the frontline, but I don't know

10     under what conditions.  They were never in a close relationship or had

11     close ties with us.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Stojanovic, you testified just a while ago

14     that you were never a member of the SRS in 1991, and I just want to

15     clarify with you this indication and ask you:  Were you a member of the

16     SRS at any other point in time, that is to say, before or after 1991?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period from 1991 to 1994, as

18     our volunteers were going away, we had losses on the frontline.  We lost

19     members.  Some political beliefs within the party changed, and democracy

20     prevailed eventually.  And one part of the party joined the Serbian

21     Radical Party in 1994.  I joined, too.  And not long after that, I

22     stopped being a member of the Serbian Radical Party.  I was not

23     interested in politics anymore.  I concentrated on academia.  I was

24     dealt -- I was engaged in sports.  I wasn't interested in politics

25     anymore.

Page 9784

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 3        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, isn't it true that again in your 2006 statement

 4     it is repeated that:

 5             "Right after the rally, about ten people enrolled in the SRS,

 6     including myself, and very soon we went to the front.  As a result of

 7     Seselj's speech, I decided to become an SRS volunteer?"

 8             And that is at paragraph 8, at the end.

 9        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, we are going back to the veracity of some

10     information in this paragraph.

11             At that time, I was not a member of the Serbian Radical Party,

12     nor did I have any desire to have any cooperation in any way with

13     Mr. Vojislav Seselj, because our political option, and as I said, I'm a

14     Serbian nationalist and the real Chetnik ideology was my ideology, in a

15     small town it's curious to see what's going on.  I just went there just

16     like that, but I didn't really care at that time.  What's important is

17     that my members did not go.

18        Q.   In January/February this year, you were in contact with the

19     Prosecution with a view to make arrangements for your testimony at the

20     beginning of this case; isn't that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you took various steps in order to be able to travel; isn't

23     that true?

24        A.   Would you clarify that question?  I don't understand it.

25        Q.   Did you take steps so that you would be able to travel?

Page 9785

 1        A.   I can't recall.

 2        Q.   But then -- but then on the 21st of February, you sent a letter

 3     to the Prosecution, informing the Prosecution that you wanted to be a

 4     Defence witness?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So you had changed your mind at this point in time, had you?

 7        A.   Not so.

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for the

 9     witness.

10             I would at this point respectfully request the admission of the

11     witness's -- the witness's three statements that we have been going

12     through today.

13             It is, as I indicated yesterday, our submission that the witness

14     has been adverse to telling the truth, as he has set it out correctly

15     earlier on in his three consecutive statements to the OTP.

16             The witness has cooperated with the Prosecution, given three

17     statements which he signed, which were read back to him or even read by

18     himself, to which he had the possibility to make corrections, as Your

19     Honours have heard about.  Your Honours have heard about the procedure

20     that brought about these statements in a safe manner.

21             The witness provided various documents voluntarily to the

22     Prosecution.

23             The witness was on the Prosecution's witness list to testify at

24     the beginning of the year as of first -- the early batch of witnesses in

25     this case, and spoke to the Prosecution about travel arrangements to come

Page 9786

 1     and travel here.  And then in February -- in the end of February, the

 2     witness stopped communicating with OTP and stated that he was a Defence

 3     witness.  And as Your Honours know, various other procedural steps had to

 4     be taken in order to secure the witness's presence today.

 5             But it is our submission that it has become clear during the

 6     testimony of the witness that the witness's earlier statements are

 7     reliable reflections of his evidence, and on this basis we seek the

 8     admission of the three statements pursuant to Rule 89(C), so that this

 9     material is before Your Honours to assess the credibility of the witness

10     evidence.  It's of course to the Judges to give weight to the testimony

11     and the statements at an appropriate time; but we submit that Your

12     Honours should have these statements in evidence and that Your Honours

13     can rely on the substance of these statements when the time comes to

14     deliberate in this case.

15             Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

17     Mr. Marcussen.

18             The Trial Chamber will listen to the cross-examination, and we

19     will render a decision regarding the admission of these three written

20     statements.

21             Mr. Seselj, you have three [as interpreted] more hours -- or you

22     have three [as interpreted] hours, rather.  Let's not waste any time.

23     You have the floor.  I'm sorry, you have two hours, not three hours.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, can I say something?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  The

Page 9787

 1     transcript has to be corrected.  I said Mr. Seselj has two hours and not

 2     three, as it states here.

 3             Very well.  This being done, what did you want to say, sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying to the Honourable Trial

 5     Chamber that the Prosecutor did not state correctly what all the measures

 6     were that were taken and what all the pressures exerted were for me to

 7     come here to testify.

 8             I had 30 to 50 telephone calls per day.  Problems were created

 9     for me at work in Serbia, in general, and problems with my family,

10     personally.  These are enormous pressures.  That can be established

11     easily by way of the telephone.  Somebody would call and introduce

12     themselves, saying they were from The Hague Tribunal, somebody else from

13     the Registry, somebody else from the OTP.  I mean, really.  And that hurt

14     my health.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Regarding this pressure, it was

16     before February or after, or after -- or, rather, the Prosecutor told us

17     that after February, you ceased any contact with the OTP.  Is that right?

18     Do you confirm that as well?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm that, because my team of

20     lawyers received the real statement, that is to say, the one that I am

21     denying here and saying that the OTP reprocessed it in order to suit

22     somebody's needs.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That's very unusual, but we'll

24     look into this.

25             You were a protected witness.  Your lawyer, your attorney, should

Page 9788

 1     not have received this statement, but I will address this issue later

 2     with my colleagues.  But that's another matter altogether.

 3             I wanted to know something.  So these pressures were exerted on

 4     you, and this was done before February; is that right?  When did they

 5     start?  You said that you would receive 30 to 50 phone calls a day.  When

 6     did all that begin?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, it wasn't before

 8     February, it was before the new year.  That's when it started, December

 9     2007.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, in February, if I

11     understood correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, during the

12     first weeks of this year, you had contacts with the OTP in order to take

13     the necessary steps for you to come to The Hague; is that right?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

15     continues] ...

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And notwithstanding this

17     pressure, these repeated phone calls that exerted so much pressure on

18     you, you nevertheless had contacts with them in order to come to

19     The Hague?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             Mr. Seselj, you may begin.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to state my

Page 9789

 1     views regarding the request of the Prosecution to have this admitted into

 2     evidence.  Should I do that straight away or after the cross-examination?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can do it -- you have two

 4     more hours -- or, rather, you have two hours, so you may use your time as

 5     you see fit.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I'm not going to use

 7     all of two hours.  I'm just going to put a few brief questions.

 8             But first of all I would like to remind you that it is absolutely

 9     inappropriate, from the view of the interests of justice, to have

10     admitted into evidence statements that were prepared by the OTP, itself,

11     and that the witness cannot confirm to be his own in the courtroom.

12             So far, about 35 witnesses were heard here, excluding the

13     experts, and practically in each and every one of these cases, there was

14     a problem; namely, that in the statement that was composed by the OTP,

15     there was something that the witness had not said.  I would like to

16     remind you of the case of Goran Stoparic, whose statement contained that

17     when arriving at the rally in Sid, I greeted those present with Hitler's

18     salute, and so on and so forth.  There was a big group of witnesses with

19     the same problem.

20             I refer to something in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.  There

21     were 48 witnesses who testified in court quite opposite to what was

22     stated in the statements that were composed for them by the OTP.  In

23     every case in every trial, this crops up.

24             Mrs. Lattanzi can confirm that that happened in the Rasim Delic

25     case that she was involved in, too.  So this appears everywhere, which

Page 9790

 1     shows what the methodology of the OTP's work is.  That is why I am

 2     absolutely opposed to that.

 3             None of the things written by the OTP can be admitted into

 4     evidence.  As for what's written in the Prosecution statements, I can

 5     cross-examine the members of the OTP who wrote up these statements.

 6             Now I'm going to move on to the cross-examination.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 8        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, I'm just going to put a few brief questions to

 9     you.

10             Do you remember the meeting with Paolo Pastore-Stocchi and

11     Daniel Saxon on the 21st of June, 2006?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Was that in Belgrade?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   How long did the meeting last?

16        A.   Briefly, because Mr. Paolo was in a hurry to catch a plane.

17        Q.   Can you tell me approximately how long it lasted?

18        A.   Not longer than 20 minutes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I would just like to draw

20     your attention to these 20 minutes.  Compare it to what was said this

21     morning, that the meeting lasted all day until the evening hours, and

22     then you will see -- well, and I did not have an opportunity to get in

23     touch with this witness since Daniel Saxon testified in court.  I did not

24     have an opportunity to speak to the witness.

25        Q.   Were you given a text in advance that you were supposed to sign?

Page 9791

 1        A.   First, it was read out from the laptop.  That was very fast.  I

 2     had to wait for a few minutes for it to be printed out, while I had a cup

 3     of coffee, and then I signed -- or, rather, initialled that statement.

 4        Q.   Was an explanation provided to you then why the OTP, on the basis

 5     of your two alleged previous statements, made a single statement and

 6     asked you to sign it yet again?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Were you told that they would apply Rule 89(F)?  That means that

 9     your statement would be admitted into evidence without you having to come

10     to The Hague at all.

11        A.   No.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9792

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted). So for the forum, we should also move back into private

12     session.  In fact, no, I'm going to ask the Registrar to redact the

13     beginning of the question, of your question, and then we will go then

14     into private session in order for you to be able to put questions

15     regarding this particular line of questioning.

16             So, Mr. Registrar, please, let's move into private session.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, then I'm not going to discuss

18     it any further.  I don't want to deal with anything in private session

19     with this witness.

20        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, after that, it was 2007.  Throughout 2007, did

21     you have any contact with The Hague OTP?

22        A.   I cannot recall.  I think towards the end of the year, I received

23     these calls to come here for proofing and for preparations for the Court.

24        Q.   The end of 2007?

25        A.   Yes, 2007, that's what I stated.

Page 9793

 1        Q.   And until then, you had no idea what was contained in your

 2     statements?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   What was it that influenced you that at one point in time you

 5     decided that you didn't want to be a Prosecution witness?

 6        A.   Because I believe -- well, after all, I'm an intellectual and I

 7     understand some things.  I understand that something was wrong.  Enormous

 8     pressure was being exerted for me to come here.  And during your trial,

 9     nobody told me that I would be a witness against you.

10        Q.   Did you follow my trial during the first days?

11        A.   A few times, yes.

12        Q.   For example, did you watch the testimony of Goran Stoparic that

13     was in January?

14        A.   Well, maybe.  Maybe, perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, I'd switch

15     channels.

16        Q.   So following the beginning of my trial did not influence you in

17     terms of giving up on testifying here?

18        A.   I don't know how to put this to you.

19        Q.   And during 2008 --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- did you spend some time in hospital?

22        A.   My state of health became worse precisely because the threats

23     became more frequent, and also the gentlemen from the OTP were calling

24     me, and you can see that from my medical files.

25        Q.   Did you say that to the doctors who were treating you?

Page 9794

 1        A.   No, no.  I did not talk about that.  I just reported because I

 2     said I was sick.

 3        Q.   What did the threats consist of?

 4        A.   Well, as for the OTP, it wasn't threats, it was pressure; that I

 5     had to come here to testify.  Well, once or twice would have been okay,

 6     but it happened every day.

 7        Q.   Did they tell you what would happen if you refused to testify?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So what did they tell you?

10        A.   That not responding to a court would result in my being sentenced

11     to prison.

12        Q.   Was any pressure ever exerted against you from my side?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   My legal advisers, that is to say, my associates from the Defence

15     team, did they exert any pressure against you?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did anybody else during the course of this year exert any kind of

18     pressure against you so that you -- in terms of you not being a

19     Prosecution witness, but rather a Defence witness?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you do that purely through your own free will?

22        A.   Through my own free will, at the moment when I received the

23     entire documentation, that is to say, the entire record that totally

24     astounded me, some of the facts that I referred to, I mean, where I was

25     involved in the war and then it turned out that I wasn't, born in 1966

Page 9795

 1     rather than 1986.  I was so astonished by my statement that, I mean, some

 2     facts quite simply are not truthful and do not correspond to my

 3     statement.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  I have

 5     no further questions.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have spoken to us

10     about pressure exerted by the OTP on you.  You also mentioned threats

11     which you received.  You told us you did not know where these threats

12     came from.  I would like to understand more about this, about the

13     threats.  The issues about the pressure is sufficiently clear.

14             Now, what were all these threats?  Not where they came from

15     because you have already told us that you didn't know where these threats

16     came from.  Now, what were all these threats about?

17        A.   Yes.  The contents of these threats was that I was a traitor of

18     Serbian people, and a few other threats like that.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And you were told that you were

20     a traitor to the Serb people.  Why ?

21        A.   It upset me so much that it even upset my family.  I even had to

22     change my apartment.  The address that is stated here is not the address.

23     I live at a completely different address in Belgrade.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you think that people knew

25     that you were in contact with this Tribunal to come and testify on behalf

Page 9796

 1     of the Prosecution?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor, do you have any

 4     redirect?

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, I don't.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Witness, on behalf of the Bench, I'd like to thank you for having

 8     come to testify during these two days, and I wish you a safe journey

 9     home.

10             I shall ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we shall resume

14     this court case on the 26th of August, if I'm not mistaken.  We did not

15     have any list of witnesses.  Will we have this list soon?

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, Your Honour, we will make efforts to provide

17     you with that list as quickly as we can.  I believe arrangements are

18     being made with various witnesses to line them up for after the recess.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             Mr. Seselj, as far as the issue you raised yesterday is

21     concerned, i.e., the search of your cell, prison management has told us,

22     via an e-mail, that an investigation is underway, and we'll be informed

23     about what happened.  I cannot, at this stage, answer your question, but

24     we shall be kept abreast of this.

25             A second issue which I would like to deal with quickly.

Page 9797

 1     Yesterday, I mentioned an e-mail which Mr. Zoran Krasic sent to the

 2     Parliament in Belgrade.  (redacted),

 3     and in this e-mail, in Cyrillic, there was an insult.  This e-mail

 4     contained an insult.  What happened, exactly?  Was it Mr. Krasic who

 5     included this in his e-mail or was it someone who added this in when this

 6     was transferred electronically?  I don't know.  Whatever the case may be,

 7     the e-mail has been given to you, so perhaps you can ask Mr. Krasic more

 8     about this.  I have material proof of these insulting words.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already investigated the

10     matter in detail.  I tried to tell you about it last night already, and I

11     handed over to the representative of the Registry two photographs that

12     show sent messages and a folder with deleted messages on Zoran Krasic's

13     computer.

14             First of all, Zoran Krasic states categorically that yesterday he

15     had absolutely no contact with The Hague Tribunal, not with the Registry,

16     not with the OTP.  Also, that he never had any contact with the

17     representatives of the Registry before that, either.

18             The first photograph that I submitted yesterday, and it can be

19     put on the ELMO because the Registry has it, shows the messages sent from

20     Krasic's computer.  In his office, Zoran Krasic, in his office at the

21     National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia, he has a computer that he

22     uses, and in that photograph one can see that the last message that was

23     sent by Zoran Krasic is dated the 8th of July, 2008, at 11.38.  And the

24     following words can be seen:  "From Zoran Krasic," meaning that

25     Zoran Krasic sent the message.

Page 9798

 1             In the lower right-hand corner of the first photograph, you can

 2     see the date, the 22nd of July, 2008, and the time when it was copied,

 3     that is, 1702 hours in the afternoon, after I called Krasic on the phone

 4     during the break and asked for detailed information.

 5             The second photograph shows deleted messages.  That folder is

 6     empty.  In the lower right-hand corner of the second picture, you can see

 7     the date, the 22nd of July, 2008, and the time of copying the picture,

 8     1702 hours.  So Zoran Krasic did not send a single e-mail on the 22nd of

 9     July, 2008.

10             Zoran Krasic has no idea as to who the official of the Registry

11     is, the one whose name is mentioned here.  Is there any reason for her

12     name not to be mentioned?  I have no reason to insist on mentioning her

13     name.  Should it remain protected?  He never heard of a person under that

14     name, never.  So this is absolutely impossible.

15             Now, what happened?  Was anything sent from the Assembly?  Did

16     someone from the Registry try to reach Zoran Krasic in some way?  That is

17     something that the Registry should explain to us now.  Were they looking

18     for someone via e-mail and was this the answer that they got, or were

19     they totally inactive; did they simply receive this?  However, it is

20     absolutely impossible that this was sent by Zoran Krasic, absolutely

21     impossible.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Whatever the case

23     may be, in the "inbox" of this person, there is a mention:  "From

24     Zoran Krasic," together with the attachment, so this may be someone who

25     has used, on the 22nd of July, the computer to send this.

Page 9799

 1             Not much more can be said about this.

 2             Do you have another issue you'd like to address, Mr. Seselj?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just this question, Mr. President.

 4     I believe that this is a very serious question.

 5             I am personally convinced that someone is doing this on purpose

 6     and that perhaps this is only the beginning, in order to compromise my

 7     legal advisers.  You know that such things were done in 2006 and in the

 8     earlier years in order to compromise my Defence.  You know that once my

 9     wife's visit was prohibited in relation to the conditions under which the

10     wives of other detainees come to visit.  This was based on the unverified

11     claims made by the OTP that she is used by me as a channel for sending

12     some kind of messages to the outside world.

13             Whenever a rigorous measure is supposed to be taken against me,

14     they plant or fabricate false evidence in order to corroborate their

15     requests.  I believe that this is part of an organised campaign that

16     somebody is carrying out in anticipation of a ruling to be taken by you

17     in order to deny me the right to defend myself.  I think that that is

18     what is going on, and in that case members of The Hague Tribunal -- well,

19     now I cannot identify whether it's the Registry or the OTP.  Somebody

20     from here is doing that in cahoots with certain secret services in

21     Belgrade.  I am convinced that that is what is happening.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj, what you have

23     just said is on the record.  You know that you have in front of you a

24     professional Bench that weighs up everything.  We do not exclude perhaps

25     that some people are perhaps put in a difficult position.  This is why we

Page 9800

 1     have this adversarial system.  We listen to both sides and then we

 2     determine the matter.  We are extremely careful and vigilant, of course.

 3     If there is any material element, we can conduct further investigations.

 4     We have resources to do this, and maybe we will follow this route, and

 5     all alternatives need to be addressed.  And before we reach a conclusion,

 6     we of course are not entitled to make any mistakes.  Since we are not

 7     entitled to make any mistakes, all the more reason to be extremely

 8     cautious, and this is exactly what we do.

 9             Mr. Marcussen.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  [Previous translation continues] ... addressed

11     this earlier.  I just wondered whether as we had requested the admission

12     of the three statements of the previous witness, we should have MFI

13     numbers given to these statements so we don't lose track of them.  The

14     65 ter numbers, if Your Honours would like me to repeat them, would be

15     65 ter number --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we'll give an MFI number,

17     but it's not because you have an MFI number that the document is

18     admitted.  This is just a number which enables you to identify the

19     document.

20             We have three statements, one in 2004, two in 2006.  Registrar,

21     can we have an MFI number, please --

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  [Previous translation continues] ... 65 and 7266.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The statement which is

24     65 ter number 7265 will be Exhibit number MFI P526.  The statement which

25     is 65 ter number 7264 will be MFI P527, and the statement that's 65 ter

Page 9801

 1     number 7266 will be MFI P528.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             Mr. Seselj.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In regard to what Mr. Marcussen

 5     said, I also have something to add to what I said about his request, his

 6     motion.

 7             These three statements should by no means be admitted into

 8     evidence, as any kind of evidence, but they can be additional proof in my

 9     criminal report against Carla Del Ponte, Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff and

10     Daniel Saxon, and my later criminal report against Paolo Stocchi.  It can

11     be supporting evidence for that, showing what methods the Prosecution is

12     using, where it's for the Prosecution to tender what they composed

13     themselves and what the witness denies is his authentic statement, and

14     denies consistently, cannot go into evidence.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're not going to go any

16     further into this.

17             Just a reminder of a technical nature.  Witness 48 was not

18     involved in any of these complaints.  This is what I needed to say.

19             Mr. Marcussen.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  If I'm not mistaken, the filings that relates to

21     this particular issue by the accused, I believe, are all confidential

22     filings, so I wonder whether we should redact the transcript making

23     reference to this.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The contents, yes, but

25     everybody knows now, for a long time already, that Mr. Seselj has filed

Page 9802

 1     motions about this.  I think everybody knows about this.  No secret.

 2             Mr. Seselj.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to say my motions are not

 4     confidential, because they were published at the moment when I filed

 5     them, first on my web site, then later in one of my books.  The responses

 6     from the Prosecution are confidential, and the decisions of the Trial

 7     Chamber are confidential.  I did not mention them, but the contents of my

 8     motions became known to the public as I filed them.  And now to deny to

 9     the public that they exist is really pointless.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as you know, we

11     shall meet again at the end of August.  This will be on a Tuesday.  I

12     don't know if it will be on Tuesday morning or Tuesday afternoon, but you

13     will be informed about this.

14             In the meantime, I wish everyone a good rest, and we shall meet

15     again, Mr. Seselj, at the end of August.

16             The Court stands adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

19                           August, 2008.