Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9803

 1                           Tuesday, 26 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today, we are the 26th of August, 2008.  I would like to greet

12     Mr. Seselj, Ms. Dahl, Mr. Mundis, as well as their associates.  I would

13     also like to greet the Registrar, the usher, and all the people assisting

14     us in this courtroom.

15             Mr. Seselj, this hearing today is taking place with a view to

16     addressing the issue of a certification of appeal, to ask leave for the

17     hearings to be suspended until such a time that the Trial Chamber has

18     handed down a decision.  I shall hand down what I have to say, and then

19     you will be able to express your views.

20             As you know, Mr. Seselj, on the 28th of July, 2008, the

21     Prosecution has filed a confidential submissions, an ex parte

22     submissions, entitled a motion filed by the Prosecution with a view to

23     not allowing the accused to represent himself.  This is a large volume

24     which, in the translation, amounts to 50-odd pages.  This document is

25     supplemented by annexes which amount to 1.500 pages, all in all, which

Page 9804

 1     have been added to the motion.  I don't wish to address this motion here

 2     today, because the Trial Chamber, after having heard you, will hand down

 3     its decision.  But this motion, in sum I will only mention the first

 4     paragraph of the motion, which sums up the entire motion.  Let me read it

 5     out slowly, because this contains everything.  The current motion asks

 6     leave to withdraw from Mr. Seselj the possibility of representing

 7     himself.  His associates helping him in his defence should no longer be

 8     involved, and a Defence counsel should be appointed proprio motu for him.

 9     Given the behaviour of the accused highlighted by this motion, the

10     Prosecution requests that the hearings be instantly suspended until such

11     a time that the Trial Chamber has handed down its decision.

12             During the summer recess, the Trial Chamber, in light of the

13     request, has, and you've had a translation of this, on the 15th of August

14     handed down a decision, i.e., a few days ago, an order pertaining to the

15     hearings set out to resume.  I know that you've had a translation of this

16     document.  Let me just read out the disposition of this order.

17             The Trial Chamber dismisses the Prosecution request to stay the

18     proceedings and asks the Prosecution to hand over to the Trial Chamber

19     and the accused, at the latest on the 22nd of August, the schedule of the

20     upcoming witnesses for the next two months.

21             On the 15th of August, 2008, the Trial Chamber had decided to

22     resume the proceedings, whilst asking the Prosecution to provide the

23     Trial Chamber with its list of scheduled witnesses.  The Prosecutor, on

24     the 22nd of August, 2008, i.e., at the time we had asked the Prosecution

25     to give us their list of witnesses, filed a new motion with a view to ask

Page 9805

 1     for certification of appeal, certification to appeal the decision until

 2     such a time that the decision is handed down, that the proceedings be

 3     stayed.

 4             On the 22nd of August, the Prosecution did not give us their list

 5     of witnesses, which means there is no witness for today, but the

 6     Prosecution has asked us to stay the proceedings and wait for the

 7     witnesses to come and testify, until such a time that the Appeals Chamber

 8     hands down its decision.  This decision was taken on the 22nd of August,

 9     2008, and therefore you might not have had the translation of this

10     document yet.

11             This is what I wanted to advise you of.

12             Mr. Seselj, before the Trial Chamber hands down its decision in a

13     few moments on the stay of proceedings and certification to appeal, I

14     need to get your feedback on this.  What is your position on this, i.e.,

15     the fact that we're going to stay the proceedings until such a time that

16     the Appeals Chamber states whether this trial can resume or not?

17             That said, as far as the rest of the motion is concerned, i.e.,

18     the motion of the 22nd of July, 2008, this Trial Chamber will hand down

19     its decision on the merits, after having heard you, and all of this will

20     take some time, so at first sight we shall not hand down a decision on

21     the merits before a few weeks' time, which means that the stay of the

22     proceedings is twofold; (a), we are waiting for the Appeals Chamber to

23     take its decision to see whether the trial can resume if some of the

24     witnesses that are called are not the subject of the motion.  So we need

25     to hear you on this, pursuant to our Rules of Procedure and Evidence and

Page 9806

 1     pursuant to a decision to be handed down by the Appeals Chamber relating

 2     to the issue of Defence counsel that are to be assigned to you.  So we

 3     need to have your comments.

 4             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, as for my positions of

 6     principle, I am going to present them to you in some five or six bullet

 7     points.  I'm not going to go into the merit of the case.

 8             First of all, I indicated to you about a month ago that I would

 9     not respond to the Prosecutor's motion.  In the meantime, I will have to

10     tell you that I have changed my mind.  I am going to file a response

11     within the prescribed time limit.  You know that it is my right to change

12     my mind if it is within the time deadline allowed by the Rules.

13             I have informed you already in writing that I've changed my mind,

14     and I ask for an extension of the time limit to respond, in view of the

15     fact that the Prosecution filed an enormous motion, consisting of some

16     100 or 130 pages, along with 1.000 pages, approximately, of supplementary

17     documents that they consider to be proof of their own thesis.  I call

18     upon you to extend this limit by two months for me, once I've received

19     the entire Prosecution motion, because I haven't yet.

20             What I've received so far is nothing.  The Prosecution cannot

21     challenge my basic right, deny me my basic right to Defence, and on the

22     other hand they submit a redacted motion on the basis of which I cannot

23     find out what their arguments are.  That is the first thing that I

24     request you to do.

25             Secondly, I oppose the Prosecution motion, although I haven't

Page 9807

 1     received it yet.  I imagine it hasn't been translated into Serbian yet,

 2     to allow them to appeal, to give them certification to appeal to the

 3     Trial Chamber.  This is a matter that has to do with the discretionary

 4     rights of the Trial Chamber.  They can -- they, the Prosecution, can

 5     appeal your decision on the merits.  They cannot appeal each and every

 6     one of your decisions.  They have the right to request certification, but

 7     I call upon you, as the Trial Chamber, to not allow them to do that, in

 8     view of my right to have an expeditious trial.

 9             During these past six years, it has been imperilled in a

10     multifold manner by Judges, pre-trial Judges, Prosecutors, not to go into

11     that entire history.

12             Also, I wish to remind you that the Trial Chamber would -- that

13     the Prosecution would want the Trial Chamber to decide on the merits of

14     the case without my participation.  This is, again, a procedural problem.

15     They ask you to appoint, in advance, an allegedly independent counsel.

16     We all know that there has been no independent counsel here, because they

17     were all paid by the Registry.  Who holds the purse strings always makes

18     the other party dependent on them.

19             So then -- now, I'm supposed to be a moron, incapable of

20     responding.  That is the Prosecution bottom line, because I'm not

21     supposed to find out what all their arguments are.  Actually, the

22     Prosecution is openly, directly, asking you to agree to a Kafkaesque

23     trial, a trial in which they are accusing me of something additional.

24     This is a kind of disciplinary proceeding, and I don't know what it's all

25     about.  So the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution and some allegedly

Page 9808

 1     independent counsel are discussing some right of mine without me knowing

 2     what it is that they're discussing.  This is absolutely impermissible.

 3             Fourthly, the right to Defence is an inalienable right.

 4     Basically, this right means that an accused person defends himself.  That

 5     is the basic right to Defence.  And then the institution of counsel was

 6     conceived because many persons are not in a position to defend

 7     themselves, so they have to have legal counsel.  The Prosecution has not

 8     proven that I'm not capable of defending myself.  They have proven just

 9     one single thing during these nine months, and that is that they are not

10     up to my level, professionally, intellectually, not on any score.  You

11     have seen that I've crushed their 38 Prosecution witnesses.

12             I speak in figurative terms.  I didn't have to crush each and

13     every one of them.  I treated victims with due respect, especially those

14     who provided truthful testimony.  But you saw their first witness,

15     Goran Stoparic, then 007, then 033, an entire series of other witnesses.

16     You saw what it was that we had to confront here in this courtroom.

17             My right to Defence is inalienable.  If that right is taken away

18     from me, there will be no proceedings, or, rather, there will be

19     proceedings, but in absentia, posthumously, whatever.  We'll see.  There

20     will be no proceedings with any participation of mine, and that decision

21     of mine is definite.  No one's going to change that.  There is no

22     Tribunal, there is no Security Council, there's no one in the world who

23     can change that decision of mine.

24             Fifthly -- I hope I got the order right -- the Prosecution is

25     trying to put things into my mouth here, and if this were to be true, it

Page 9809

 1     could constitute contempt of court, which is a crime in that case.  There

 2     have to be contempt proceedings instituted so that I have the possibility

 3     of defending myself in such proceedings, and then certain sanctions would

 4     have to be imposed.  If the Prosecution does not have evidence that I can

 5     challenge, then they may be right in terms of their own positions, but

 6     I can crush each and every one of their positions, and I have to be

 7     allowed to do so through appropriate proceedings.  The only appropriate

 8     proceedings through which I could carry this through are contempt

 9     proceedings.

10             Everything that was presented by the Prosecution is rigged and it

11     is basically forgery and falsification.  This is the core of the matter.

12     The Prosecution counted on certain number of persons as witnesses in

13     these proceedings.

14             I am not saying anything just off the cuff.  You heard Nebojsa

15     Stojanovic last time, he testified in public, and he denied each and

16     everything that is written in his alleged previous statements.  Now, if

17     we had before us a real Prosecution during this month, they would have

18     investigated on the ground, in Serbia, what was the actual truth.  What

19     is true, what is written in the first statements, with the signature of

20     Nebojsa Stojanovic, or was the truth what Nebojsa Stojanovic said in this

21     courtroom.  Had they carried out this investigation, we would have

22     already had tangible material evidence in our hands.  I claim to you that

23     the only truth is what Nebojsa Stojanovic stated here in this courtroom.

24             You remember the witness Goran Stoparic.  I assume you do.  He,

25     himself, in the courtroom denied some parts of his previous statements,

Page 9810

 1     and then again he accused me of certain things here.  I challenged that.

 2     After his examination, Prosecution investigators had interviews with the

 3     mentioned persons from Srem, from Vukovar and so forth, and the

 4     Prosecution informed me in writing that these witnesses actually confirm

 5     what it was that I had stated rather than what the person who appeared in

 6     the courtroom said.  That is the core of the matter.

 7             I have a great deal of evidence to the effect that the

 8     Prosecution abused proceedings and that they resorted to impermissible

 9     means.  They do not have a shred of evidence of me using any

10     impermissible resources or means.

11             Sixthly, if I got the order right - the adrenaline is running

12     high, so perhaps I may have gotten the order wrong - I've been here for

13     already six years.  I waited for five years for these proceedings to

14     start, for the trial to start.  It's not my fault that I waited and that

15     there was such a delay.  It is the incompetent Prosecution that is to be

16     blamed.  Their head person at that time, Carla Del Ponte, in haste

17     accepted --

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You may submit your arguments

19     without naming the Prosecution in a certain way.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ms. Lattanzi, for me the

21     Prosecution is the opposing party.  They are accusing me of the most

22     heinous war crimes.  Out of all the crimes that exist in the world, the

23     most grave are war crimes, and the Prosecution is prosecuting me for all

24     the gravest war crimes, save genocide.  The basic position of my Defence

25     is that the Prosecution does not have a shred of evidence to prove this,

Page 9811

 1     except for forged evidence, and you don't want me to use the position of

 2     my Defence, the basic position of my Defence.  Why should I defend

 3     myself, then?  For nine months, I've been trying to prove that they do

 4     not have a single reliable witness, that they have nothing to corroborate

 5     their indictment, and now six years will be up and they are asking for a

 6     stay in the proceedings.

 7             Seventhly, I think that you should immediately impose sanctions

 8     on the Prosecution, because they have trampled upon your order that by

 9     the 22nd, at the latest, they should submit a list of witnesses for the

10     following two months.  Of course, the Prosecution did have the right to

11     ask you to make it possible for them to appeal such an order.  However,

12     this request for certification to appeal does not postpone the

13     implementation of your decision.  At least that has not been the case so

14     far.

15             Today, we have no witnesses.  Why?  Because the Prosecution does

16     not have any witnesses, as such.  They don't know who to call.  That is

17     the core of the matter.  Why do the Prosecution not call witnesses apart

18     from those mentioned in their motion?  There were a few so-called experts

19     there, there were a few victims as well.  I never contacted them.  I

20     don't even know where they live, and so on and so forth.  So why did the

21     Prosecution not respond to your order?  Why did they not act in

22     accordance with your order?  Why did they not make it possible to have

23     these proceedings continue, rather than have them interrupted for no

24     reason whatsoever?  In this way, they are denying me my right to an

25     expeditious trial.

Page 9812

 1             First of all, this a terrible precedent on a world scale, to wait

 2     for a trial for five years, almost.  And once the trial was underway,

 3     when the Prosecution had used up almost two-thirds of their time, then

 4     they ask for a stay in the proceedings.  They only have three and a half

 5     months left, by mid-December at the latest.  Your plan was by the end of

 6     November.  What more should we wait for?

 7             The Prosecution called five of their main experts here -- four,

 8     five, what was the figure?  You saw how they fared, these experts.  The

 9     Prosecution has already called its key witnesses.  The Prosecution has no

10     one to call.

11             I have filed a motion last week for you to prevent jeopardy upon

12     my witnesses, Defence witnesses.  I'm not going to repeat all of that.  I

13     have the text of the motion here.  And you have the statements of these

14     persons verified in court.  There are statements that they signed before

15     Prosecution investigators and there are statements that they signed

16     before the relevant court in Belgrade, and now we are going to try to

17     prove here which statement is more authentic.  We can do that, but how

18     are we going to deal with it, from the aspect of the interests of the

19     person who at one point in time signed one thing and later on signed a

20     completely different thing?  And all of these people are accessible to

21     the Court, except for one who you have arrested because he firmly adhered

22     to his decision not to testify, and his trial is supposed to take place

23     in a few days.  All the rest are accessible to you.

24             These people are no longer afraid.  At first, they were afraid

25     because what was announced was that they may be indicted.  However,

Page 9813

 1     The Hague Tribunal or, rather, its OTP cannot issue any new indictments.

 2     Then there is a number of people who were given jobs and residence in

 3     Western countries, good salaries, going into their own business and so on

 4     and so forth.  Some have played along, others have not.  Those who were

 5     taken on board were already used in the courtroom, and you saw how the

 6     Prosecution fared with Witness 007 and 033.  These are the two most

 7     drastic cases.  Now, as for the rest --

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before we get too far into your arguments in

 9     relation to the Prosecution's motion to have counsel imposed, I wish to

10     draw your attention to the issue which is at stake here and now; namely,

11     the issue of suspension.  That's the only thing that we are here to

12     discuss today, whether you would have any objections to suspending the

13     proceedings for the time it takes for the Appeal Chamber to respond to

14     the Prosecution's request for certification.  That's the only thing we're

15     here to discuss today.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I support what my

17     colleague Judge Harhoff has just said.  The sole issue to be addressed

18     today is the issue of the stay of proceedings and certification to appeal

19     the decision.  You have mentioned six items.  I let you speak, since

20     we've had a break of approximately four weeks, but my colleagues are

21     quite right.  The sole issue we need to decide upon is that of the

22     certification to appeal and stay of proceedings.  That is what we would

23     like to get your comments on.

24             You, first of all, told us that contrary to what you had

25     previously announced in July, you would now file submissions to reply to

Page 9814

 1     the Prosecution's motion, and you would need two months for this.  We

 2     shall deliberate on this matter with the Bench a little later today.

 3     That was the first point.

 4             Now, the second point:  From what I understood, you objected to

 5     the motion filed by the Prosecution relating to the stay of proceedings,

 6     because you felt that the Trial Chamber, in its discretion, need not

 7     grant the motion of the Prosecution.  This is what I understood you

 8     saying.

 9             Now, as far as a stay of proceedings are concerned, do you wish

10     to add anything more?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  That is point number 7, and I

12     will conclude with it.

13             I demand from the Trial Chamber, in addition to my previous

14     request, that you should deny certification to them, that all of this

15     time that hasn't been used be counted in the time allotted to the

16     Prosecution.  And if the next week they fail to come up with witnesses to

17     call, then I ask that you declare that the Prosecution case is over, and

18     that you set a deadline for me to begin the Defence case.  I think that

19     that would be the only appropriate decision on your part.

20             I don't think that there is a single reason for my right to

21     expeditious trial to be further denied.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, would you like to

23     reply or not?

24             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Good morning, Your Honours, to Dr. Seselj and everyone in and

Page 9815

 1     around the courtroom.

 2             Just two or three very brief points.

 3             With respect to our request to stay the order concerning the

 4     witness calender and for certification, our position is set forth, I

 5     would submit, quite succinctly and convincingly in our motion of the 22nd

 6     of August, 2008.  I do want to add, however, just one or two points in

 7     response to what Dr. Seselj has said this morning.

 8             I think it's important to understand and to appreciate and

 9     recognise that the request for an extension of time of two months in

10     order to reply to or respond to our motion concerning imposition of

11     counsel, in light of the fact, as Dr. Seselj has himself indicated, that

12     the Prosecution has approximately three to three and a half months left,

13     in effect would render our motion virtually moot, because if he were to

14     be given two months to respond and during that course of time the

15     proceedings were to continue, by the time the Trial Chamber reaches a

16     decision on the merits, the Prosecution case would be virtually over.

17     That is, in our respectful view, another reason for these proceedings to

18     be adjourned pending determination of the issue of Defence counsel.

19             If Dr. Seselj needs adequate time to respond, the Prosecution of

20     course has no objection to that.  That's his right, and he deserves an

21     opportunity to respond to our motion concerning counsel.  Our point,

22     which was made in our initial filing on the 28th of July, 2008, is simply

23     that the proceedings, in our respectful view, cannot continue while the

24     Trial Chamber is deliberating upon the issue of assignment of counsel.

25     This is an issue that relates to the witness intimidation issues that

Page 9816

 1     have been set forth in our motion.  This is, in our respectful view, a

 2     very serious matter, a matter which requires the Trial Chamber's full

 3     attention in order to resolve, and our view would be that we simply

 4     cannot continue with the possibility of further witness intimidation or

 5     harassment issues while the issue of assignment of counsel is pending.

 6             To provide, at this time, a further calender of witness

 7     appearances would, in our view, potentially place the witnesses whose

 8     name appear on the calender in a position to be harassed or intimidated

 9     by the associates of the accused, as per our original motion.  By

10     identifying who is to come, we, in effect, are lining up the witnesses

11     and placing many of them in an extremely vulnerable position, and it's

12     our respectful view that we simply cannot do that in good conscience and

13     in good faith while the motion concerning Defence counsel is pending.

14     And for those reasons, we have asked for certification of the decision

15     concerning the adjournment, and I want to be very clear what it is

16     precisely that we have asked for in our earlier motion, and that is that

17     the proceedings stop until the counsel issue is resolved by the Trial

18     Chamber and perhaps even by the Appeals Chamber, depending upon the

19     decision of the Trial Chamber on the merits of that motion.

20             If we were to continue in the interim period of time, coupled

21     with an extension of time for the accused, whether it's two months or

22     some period less than two months, would result in the decision on counsel

23     not being handed down until very, very late in the Prosecution case, and

24     in our respectful view that is not a situation that we need to be in at

25     all, because we are potentially putting future witnesses in harm's way,

Page 9817

 1     in our respectful view.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

 3             Very well.  The Trial Chamber will now leave the courtroom.  We

 4     will deliberate on this, and we'll hand down our oral decision in about

 5     30 minutes.  So we should be back in session in 30 minutes, and the oral

 6     decision will be handed down in 30 minutes.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 9.05 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 9.42 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is back in session,

10     and I will slowly read the oral decision that is to be handed down.

11             Noting the Prosecution's motion dated August 22, 2008, noting the

12     oral response given by the accused today (see transcript), noting the

13     reply of the Prosecution made this day (see the transcript), noting

14     Rule 73(B) of the Rules according to which the Trial Chamber must check

15     that two cumulative conditions are satisfied before the Trial Chamber can

16     certify one of these decisions; therefore, the Trial Chamber will check

17     that, number 1, the issue -- the question deals with an issue that may

18     jeopardise the fairness and the expeditiousness of the trial or its

19     outcome and, number 2, that if this question is immediately solved by the

20     Appeals Chamber, this might really help the advancement of the

21     proceedings.

22             Considering that the question raised by the order of the Trial

23     Chamber deals with the following question:  Whether the proceedings can

24     continue despite the allegations made by Prosecution regarding a campaign

25     of obstruction to the trial in this case which would be orchestrated by

Page 9818

 1     the accused and implemented by his associates who are helping him prepare

 2     his case; considering that the Trial Chamber considers, on the one hand,

 3     that the question as to whether the proceedings should be stayed or

 4     should continue, given the circumstances, may jeopardise the fairness of

 5     the trial or its outcome; considering, on the other hand, that it is

 6     necessary for the Appeals Chamber to immediately solve this question;

 7     considering that the main question of the order of August 15 is the

 8     question of the stay, and because of this, the Trial Chamber must

 9     necessarily grant the Prosecution's motion to stay the proceedings until

10     it gets the decision of the Trial Chamber [as interpreted] regarding this

11     issue.

12             On these grounds, according to Rule 73(B), grants the

13     Prosecution's motion and decides:  Number 1, to certify the appeal of the

14     order of August 15 and, number 2, to stay the execution of the order of

15     August 15 until the decision of the Appeal Chamber is known, draws the

16     attention of the Appeals Chamber in light of the advancement of the

17     proceedings and in light of the fact that the accused has been in

18     detention since February 24, 2003, that a decision on the appeal of the

19     order of August 15 is necessary as quickly as possible.

20             So this is the decision that has just been handed, which

21     certifies the appeal and stays -- adjourns the execution of the order of

22     August 15 by which we were asking for the schedule of witnesses.

23             The Trial Chamber is now going to await the decision by the

24     Appeals Chamber before asking the Prosecution to provide this list, this

25     witness list.

Page 9819

 1             The Trial Chamber is fully aware of the fact that this is an

 2     emergency, this is an urgent matter, and this is why it drew the

 3     attention of the Appeals Chamber to be very speedy in its deliberations.

 4     We will therefore resume as soon as the Appeals Chamber will have handed

 5     its decision.  That's when we'll meet again.

 6             Now, Mr. Seselj, regarding your request on the deadline for your

 7     written submission, you asked for two months.  The Trial Chamber looked

 8     into this and finally decides that one month should suffice, since most

 9     annexes to this motion have already been provided to you.  So we believe

10     that one month should be enough.  You will have ample time to reply to

11     this Prosecution's motion regarding its request to appoint a counsel.

12             You also told us earlier that you wanted the Trial Chamber to

13     order the Prosecution to hand you and give you all procedural exhibits

14     and annexes that are in the motion.  In the days -- the following days,

15     the Trial Chamber will look at this carefully, look at your request

16     carefully, and we'll hand out a written decision as quickly as possible.

17     So this -- we will give you an answer on your motion in view of obtaining

18     all the elements that are contained in the Prosecution's motion in a view

19     to appoint counsel.

20             This is what I had to say.  We'll now have to wait serenely for

21     the decision of the Appeals Chamber, and the proceedings will resume

22     after this decision made by the Appeals Chamber.

23             Mr. Mundis.

24             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             I did have one more request perhaps before we adjourn.

Page 9820

 1             Mr. Seselj this morning made reference to a filing concerning

 2     Defence witnesses that he apparently has made.  I am aware of the special

 3     procedures that are adopted in this case concerning how Dr. Seselj's

 4     submissions are ultimately filed with the Trial Chamber.  I would

 5     respectfully request, if possible, that we get a B/C/S copy of that

 6     submission as soon as possible so that we can review that in order to

 7     determine whether or not it's something that we need to respond to.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj's

 9     submissions regarding your -- the question that you just mentioned is

10     something that I did not have.  I don't have it.  I guess that this

11     motion was written in B/C/S and is being translated into English at the

12     moment.  That's how you should -- you probably can get the B/C/S copy.

13     With -- the legal officer will do what is necessary to ask the Registry

14     to give you this document.

15             Mr. Seselj, would you like to add anything?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two things.

17             First of all, I am hereby concluding that your decision about

18     accepting the motion of the Prosecution is something that you accepted

19     without me having previously received that in proper written form.  You

20     basically made me give my position orally about something that I haven't

21     yet seen with my own eyes.  But I'm not going to comment on this any

22     further.

23             Naturally, I am dissatisfied with this decision of yours and the

24     fact that you're violating my right to an expeditious trial.

25             The second thing I want to ask you, and I want you to tell me

Page 9821

 1     this immediately, whether this one-month deadline for me to respond to

 2     the Prosecution motion starts running after I receive the entire

 3     material, or, rather, when does this deadline start running, because I

 4     haven't yet received the entire motion, so I assume the deadline hasn't

 5     started running yet.  I can start preparing my response only once I have

 6     the entire motion.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, but I

 8     believe that my fellow Judges will agree with me - if they don't, they

 9     will say so immediately - so we will hand down a decision regarding the

10     request you made on the disclosure of all elements that are in the

11     motion.  As far as I'm concerned, this one-month deadline starts running

12     as of the handing down of the written decision that you will get soon.

13             This written decision also deals with the motion, and so the

14     deadline will start when the decision is handed down, this one-month

15     deadline.  We believe that the written decision will be filed probably --

16     will be handed down probably at the end of the week or next week, and the

17     one month will start when you obtain this decision translated in your own

18     language, because the decision might be recorded but you also need to

19     have it in your own language.  So the one-month deadline starts as of you

20     obtaining the translation, which means that you have 15 more days.  All

21     together, you'll have a month and a half.

22             And I give the floor to my fellow Judge.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a small comment to make

24     regarding what Mr. Seselj said as to the infringement of his rights,

25     following the oral decision made on the certification of appeal and the

Page 9822

 1     stay.

 2             The Presiding Judge summed up the content of the Prosecution's

 3     motion.  He asked you whether you wanted to reply.  You agreed, because

 4     you did reply.  And, therefore, I believe that your rights were never

 5     infringed.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I fully support what my

 7     fellow Judge said.  I wanted to add -- say the same thing, but it goes

 8     without saying.

 9             I told you that this is an urgent matter.  Since you did not get

10     the translation of the submission made on August 22nd, and given the

11     urgency of the matter and the fact that a decision had to be made, I

12     summed up the Prosecution's motion.  I told you what were the issues in

13     this motion, and I asked you what your position was.  And you answered,

14     you replied.

15             This was a very urgent matter, and given the urgency of the

16     matter, the Trial Chamber could even have done without asking you for

17     your position.  But we wanted to hear you out, we wanted to see you,

18     because we haven't seen each other for a few weeks, so I wanted to see

19     you here in the courtroom.  I wanted to give you the floor, and I wanted

20     you to state your position.  But as my fellow Judge just said, you cannot

21     say that your rights are infringed upon.

22             Personally, I feel hurt by this.  Up until now, we always did our

23     utmost to give you the floor to allow you to speak up and to defend

24     yourself.  I can tell you that we will be very -- we'll do everything we

25     can to make the decision on what you asked so that the deadline can start

Page 9823

 1     running, this one-month deadline can start running.  We're doing

 2     everything to make sure that you have an expeditious trial, but there are

 3     many ancillary problems that come and crop up and that slow down the

 4     proceedings.  But my fellow Judges and myself do everything we can to

 5     reach an end to this trial as soon as possible, while of course abiding

 6     by the Rules, by the procedure, and by the rights of the accused.

 7             Thank you, and we will resume soon.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.59 a.m.