Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9981

 1                           Thursday, 25 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today, we are Thursday, the 25th of September, 2008.  I would

12     like to greet the representatives of the OTP:  Ms. Dahl, Mr. Mundis, as

13     well as their legal assistant; Mr. Seselj, as well as Mr. Seselj's

14     associates; and I would like to welcome the new members on his team, who

15     have just taken up their new job.  So I would like to welcome them.

16             Let's resume our proceedings.  We shall drop the blinds, since

17     the witness has been granted protective measures.

18             Before we do that, Mr. Seselj, I think you wanted to say

19     something.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, just very briefly, Judges.

21             It is with great regret that I have to inform you that probably

22     this is the last trip of my legal advisers to The Hague because this

23     morning the Registry referred [as interpreted] to cover their travel

24     expenses; that is to say that they are covering their own expenses here.

25     I haven't got the money to pay for them, either, so they won't be able to

Page 9982

 1     come anymore.  Until now, they came about once a month, and the Registry

 2     paid only for their trip and nothing else.  Now they've even refused to

 3     do that, so they will no longer be able to come.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have been advised

 5     of this.  I believe that this is something that can be dealt with.  The

 6     Registrar has asked your legal advisers for a number of answers to their

 7     questions.  I believe that the answers do not match the questions.  This

 8     is what I have been told.

 9             There's no reason, of course, for your legal advisers not to be

10     reimbursed their expenses, all the more so for the new arrival on your

11     team, so this cannot apply to your new counsel.  This is not something

12     that concerns him; i.e., the questionnaire that has been sent out.

13             Rest assured the Trial Chamber will resolve this issue so that no

14     one is prejudiced.

15             Let's bring the witness in now.  Ms. Dahl, you have 15 minutes

16     left.  Are we going to hear the witness in open session or in private

17     session?

18             MS. DAHL:  I will be needing to discuss some records that are

19     under seal, and I also have a housekeeping matter that I realised last

20     night when I was looking at the binders that were distributed for a

21     particular set of records.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             Good morning, Witness.  You may sit down.

25             Let's move into closed session, or can you address your

Page 9983

 1     housekeeping matters in open session?

 2             MS. DAHL:  This concerns records under seal, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, closed session,

 4     please, Registrar.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

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Page 9984











11 Pages 9984-10008 redacted. Private session.















Page 10009

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11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Trial Chamber

15     would like to put the following question to you:  You gave a statement to

16     the OTP in which you indicated that you had been the victim of a number

17     of assaults on certain dates.  I shall not address this in detail.

18             It so happens that we discover now that a serious assault that

19     led to grave bodily injury was conducted against you, and this is

20     something you did not mention to the OTP.  Why was this assault never

21     mentioned?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I did not feel it was

23     necessary, although this was grave bodily injury.  I went to see a doctor

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted).  Well, now people know about this incident, and I

Page 10010

 1     didn't really want that to happen.  That would have made it an even more

 2     aggravating circumstance in terms of what had happened there.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we redact at line 24 on

 4     page 29, please.

 5             Right, so you have given us your explanation.

 6             Ms. Dahl.

 7             MS. DAHL:  We also need the place of medical treatment, as well,

 8     in line 23.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It is very tricky

10     to switch from open session to private session, so let's move back into

11     private session so that we can finish with this series of questions.

12             Registrar, please, private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

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Page 10011











11 Pages 10011-10013 redacted. Private session.















Page 10014

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

20             MS. DAHL:  Could we ask that the witness and the accused be

21     reminded to allow for interpretation and leave a pause between question

22     and answer.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have already mentioned this.

24     Please be careful.  You speak the same language, and the interpreters are

25     having a hard time.

Page 10015

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You confirm, sir, that it was in July and June 1992 that the

 4     largest group of people arrived in Hrtkovci from Grubisno Polje?

 5        A.   Yes, that's where they came from, from Western Slavonia.

 6        Q.   Now I'm intentionally referring to Grubisno Polje.

 7             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, Mr. Seselj needs to be reminded to turn

 8     off his microphone to preserve the protective measures in place when he

 9     completes his question.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why?  I haven't quite

11     understood why.  Why does he need to close his microphone to abide by the

12     protective measures?

13             MS. DAHL:  The voice distortion works through the witness's

14     microphone, and his undistorted voice can be transmitted through the

15     accused's microphone.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this technical

17     clarification.

18             Mr. Seselj, when you put the question, please turn your

19     microphone off.  If you don't turn your microphone off, one can hear the

20     witness's voice.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Very well.

22        Q.   Do you remember - you stated that yourself, after all - that the

23     largest number of Serbs who had arrived were from Grubisno Polje, and

24     then you referred to Pakrac and you referred to Okucani, but most of them

25     came from Grubisno Polje, right?

Page 10016

 1        A.   They told me that that's where they mostly came from and also

 2     from the area surrounding Zdenci.  However, I have some names of persons

 3     written down who are from Grubisno Polje, so they said that most of them

 4     had come from Grubisno Polje.

 5        Q.   Do you know that in Grubisno Polje, there was never, ever any

 6     fighting, any combat?

 7        A.   I heard about that later.

 8        Q.   So these people were brutally expelled by the Croatian Army and

 9     police without having rebelled against Tudjman's regime at all; isn't

10     that right?

11        A.   I am not aware of that, but I believe you that that's the way it

12     was.

13        Q.   Do you know - I assume that you'd have to know - that the media

14     in Serbia kept broadcasting the numbers of Serbs who had been expelled

15     from Croatia before the war broke out?

16        A.   I didn't know what the truth was.  Some say one thing, and others

17     say the other thing.  I as a person, as a human being, and (redacted), I

18     feel sorry for the Serb people and the Croatian people on account of

19     their suffering.

20        Q.   Well, I do believe you that you're sorry, but I need to establish

21     the facts or to establish that we do not agree on the facts.  So is it

22     not a fact --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Registrar, we will

24     have to redact line 15.

25             Witness, when you answer in the future, never refer to who you

Page 10017

 1     are.  Otherwise, we will have to redact the transcript.  So don't refer

 2     to this, please.  We are currently in open session, and it's rather

 3     complicated.

 4             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Since you have lived in that area, you weren't limited only to

 7     Hrtkovci; you went to other villages, to other parts of Vojvodina,

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was it obvious to you that a large number of Serbs had arrived

11     not only in Hrtkovci but throughout Vojvodina?

12        A.   Yes.  I know that Novi Slamkamen, Golubinci, and then in

13     Kukujevci, Gibavci [phoen], so that is to say in almost every town in

14     Vojvodina and Srem, there were refugees.

15        Q.   And there were several hundred thousands of them?

16        A.   Yes.  I met quite a lot of them in Sremska Mitrovica.  The

17     greatest number was there, but also in Ruma and in other villages.

18        Q.   All right.  So the war hadn't started yet, and there was a huge

19     number of refugees in Serbia.  So what would be more natural than for

20     those refugees to attempt to find somebody that they could exchange their

21     property with so that they could have a more or less normal life?

22     Wouldn't that be a normal conduct under the circumstances?

23        A.   Yes, a normal conduct.  You're quite correct.  I would have done

24     the same.

25        Q.   Providing there were no incidents.

Page 10018

 1        A.   Yes, certainly, without incidents.

 2        Q.   So what was happening in relation to the exchange of property --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understand you

 4     correctly - because the Prosecution had not highlighted this and

 5     Mr. Seselj has just emphasised this - before the Croats left your area, I

 6     believe - and this is what I understand now - that hundreds of Serbian

 7     refugees arrived massively in the area, and you gave us the names of

 8     these settlements in chronological order.  The Serb refugees arrived

 9     first, and then the Croats started to leave.  Is this in the right

10     chronological order?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First, the Serb refugees came.

12     Later on, I heard that six or seven Croatian families left during the

13     same time, and, well, perhaps they came across each other on the road.

14     Perhaps they were motivated by fear, but it was first the Serb refugees

15     from Croatia who came to Serbia.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is now on the transcript.

17     According to you, the Serb refugees arrived first, and they came from

18     Croatia.

19             Let's proceed.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, these Serb refugees who had left their property in Croatia,

22     who were expelled, they were looking for some Croats who would be willing

23     to exchange property, correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you have information indicating how many properties were

Page 10019

 1     exchanged between Serbs who had been expelled and Croats in Hrtkovci from

 2     June 1991 until the 6th of May, 1992, when the rally of the Serbian

 3     Radical Party was held?  How many properties had been exchanged before

 4     that time?

 5        A.   Mr. Seselj, that's not my job.  I don't like to interfere in

 6     other people's business.  I have no information to that effect.  I later

 7     on learned about this in 1995 and 1996 when we socialised in Zagreb and

 8     so on.  It was then that we informed each other about these events.

 9             Now, as to who was exchanging property with whom at that

10     particular time, I knew nothing about it then.

11        Q.   All right.  So if you don't have accurate information about the

12     number of properties exchanged, would you agree that a large number of

13     properties was already exchanged in that period of time?

14        A.   Before your public rally in Hrtkovci, yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Thank you.  That's a very important piece of information for me.

16     So a large number of properties had already been exchanged before I even

17     appeared in Hrtkovci?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I suppose that you are aware of the fact that before my arrival

20     on the 6th of May, there was no branch office of the Serbian Radical

21     Party in Hrtkovci at all.

22        A.   I know that there were existing authorities of Mr. Milosevic.

23     They mentioned the Serbian Renewal Movement, and then I know that there

24     were supporters in your political party there, but I didn't know much

25     about political parties.

Page 10020

 1        Q.   But you should know that the Serbian Radical Party was

 2     established more than a year later after other major political parties in

 3     Serbia, correct?  We were registered in March of 1991.  Do you remember

 4     that?

 5        A.   Perhaps I read it in the papers.  I used to read papers.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And before the 6th of May, 1992, we didn't manage to

 7     establish a branch office in Hrtkovci.  The ruling party, the Socialist

 8     Party, was already there, the Serbian Renewal Movement was there, perhaps

 9     even the Democratic Party of Croats in Vojvodina led by Tonkovic, but

10     there were no Radicals there in Hrtkovci; am I right?

11        A.   I know about other people, and if you say so, you're probably

12     right about what you say.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, at this stage of the

14     proceedings you have just said something which caught my attention.  You

15     said that you read the press at the time.  We don't have the press.  I

16     assume that when these thousands of Serbs left Croatia, articles must

17     have been written in the press about these flows of refugees.  I assume

18     that the journalist that wrote about these migrations must have also

19     mentioned a similar phenomenon, i.e., the departure of the Croats.  I

20     assume that the journalists also mentioned that the Serbs arriving from

21     Croatia had accommodation problems and that some of them had to buy flats

22     or houses and that others had to turn to the authorities to have

23     somewhere to live, and the others may have exchanged flats with Croats so

24     that the Croats could go to Serbia.

25     (redacted)

Page 10021

 1     (redacted); it's very

 2     difficult, as I have said - and you are someone who reads books.  Now,

 3     could you tell us whether this was mentioned in the press?  And this is

 4     irrespective of any political party intervention.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 6     informed about this at length, but there were so many refugees coming in

 7     from Croatia that it was absolutely impossible for all of them to fit in

 8     Hrtkovci, even if everybody had moved out voluntarily, and I regret the

 9     fact that these refugees had to go to other villages.  They were

10     overflowing to other villages, and wherever they could, they found

11     various arrangements to either legally occupy certain houses, or in some

12     cases they would use force to expel previous tenants.  But there was a

13     huge number of friends coming in from Croatia.  I was surprised that so

14     many people had decided to take this historic step and go into an

15     unknown.  One had to have faith to do something like that.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to have a break now

17     because it is 10.00.  We shall have a 20-minute break and resume in 20

18     minutes' time.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.23 a.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

22     We're in open session.

23             Ms. Dahl.

24             MS. DAHL:  Before we resume the cross-examination of the witness,

25     Your Honour, I wanted to report on my attempt to review and evaluate the

Page 10022

 1     material that Mr. Seselj disclosed to the Prosecution at the beginning of

 2     the session today.

 3             First, I want to put on the record that at 9.20 this morning, I

 4     was handed another 20 pages of material, and awaiting me after the break

 5     were an additional six pages or so of newspaper articles.  I arranged to

 6     have a language assistant meet me at the break.  We attempted to review

 7     the material.  I was not able to get past the first couple of pages.

 8     Site translation is time-consuming; and regardless of the first read, I

 9     am unable to, within the time provided by the Defence, make a considered

10     evaluation of the material.  I was not able to read more than the first

11     cover page of the very first document that was first presented.

12             I propose as a remedy that Mr. Seselj be precluded from using the

13     documents during cross-examination.  I think the Prosecution is unfairly

14     prejudiced by untimely disclosure.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I assume that Mr. Seselj

16     intends to use these documents.  According to the case law and

17     jurisprudence of this Trial Chamber, these documents will not be

18     admitted.  This is the way things were decided.  When documents are not

19     translated, they cannot be admitted.

20             However, Mr. Seselj may ask questions and present the documents.

21             On your hand, you can ask additional questions after the

22     examination-in-chief [as interpreted], and we will ask the witness to

23     come back for these additional questions because then you will have had

24     time to read the documents.

25             So let's continue.

Page 10023

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The arrival of several hundred thousand of Serbs expelled from

 3     Croatia had to stir up anti-Croatian sentiment among the Serbian public;

 4     isn't that right?

 5        A.   Yes, that's quite logical.

 6        Q.   And that atmosphere could be observed in all parts of Serbia;

 7     that's quite logical, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Amidst that sentiment, from time to time there were certain

10     incidents?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the Serbs who were arriving, in addition to trying to find

13     Croats that wanted to exchange their properties, they frequently came

14     across vacant houses of people who had lived abroad for many years prior

15     to that, correct?

16        A.   I'm not aware of that, but there were such cases.  As to how

17     many, I don't know.

18        Q.   There's no need to talk about figures.  We're just talking about

19     a phenomenon.  So it was quite natural that if there were a certain

20     number of vacant houses in Hrtkovci, the owners of which lived in Germany

21     or they moved out to another place due to their work and they kept a

22     house in Hrtkovci as their country home that they visited only

23     occasionally, there were cases when people entered these vacant houses,

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10024

 1        Q.   Whenever somebody intervened, the police would come and evict

 2     people from those houses?

 3        A.   I heard about evictions.  I did not attend them, and I don't know

 4     how many there were.

 5        Q.   But you can confirm that police evicted people from houses?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   But there were cases when owners did not react to somebody

 8     occupying their house, either because they were abroad or because they

 9     thought it was not humane to react under those circumstances, and then

10     police would not intervene?

11        A.   Police would only intervene if somebody reported that.

12        Q.   So only if an owner reported that, the police would go and evict

13     people.  Thank you.  Thank you for these truly sincere answers.

14             You know that in law, there is something called "vis maior."  If

15     there are some catastrophes, natural catastrophes, earthquakes, fires, or

16     wars, when there is great destruction, people need to be provided with

17     accommodation, with housing.  They need roofs over their heads, and if

18     somebody's property is available, it can be temporarily given to somebody

19     who truly needs it.

20        A.   Yes, but people could live together.  There need not have been

21     any expulsions.

22        Q.   Now, speaking of expulsions, do you know of any case where a

23     Croatian family was expelled from Hrtkovci without exchanging their

24     property with Serbs prior to that?

25        A.   There were many of them who had to leave in great haste.  They

Page 10025

 1     would only collect their passports and very few belongings, and they

 2     would leave.  I heard that later on, fortunately, there was a better

 3     outcome.  They managed to find better arrangements.

 4        Q.   I don't know about these cases of people leaving in haste, but

 5     would you agree that all Croats who'd left from Hrtkovci, be it in 1991

 6     or later, exchanged property with Serbs who had previously been expelled

 7     from Croatia?

 8        A.   I don't know that, and it wasn't within my domain.  There were

 9     authorities in charge of that.  All I know are the documents that I was

10     duty-bound to issue.  I did not meddle into anything else.

11        Q.   Very well.  Do you know of a single case where somebody was left

12     without their property, that they were deported, expelled from Croatia --

13     from Serbia --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   -- from Serbia, and that their property was confiscated, and that

17     this is how it remained?  Do you know of a single such case?

18        A.   I personally don't know of such cases, but people are saying that

19     many of them were defrauded.  When they came to Croatia to the address

20     given to them, they found people living there, which is to say that wrong

21     addresses were given to them, and that was the greatest stress for them.

22        Q.   Let us understand each other.  When Serbs were leaving Croatia

23     with a Yugoslav passport, they had no opportunity to return back to

24     Croatia, correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 10026

 1        Q.   Is it true that Croatian authorities would let in only Catholics,

 2     Croats with a Yugoslav passport, those in possession of a certificate

 3     from a Roman Catholic church that they were proper Catholics?

 4        A.   I don't know how they arrived.  I don't know how Croatian

 5     authorities conducted themselves at the border.  What I was asked to do,

 6     I did that, simply that.

 7        Q.   Is it true that a large number of Croats, prior to exchanging

 8     property with the Serbs who were expelled, first went to Croatia to see

 9     the condition of the Serbian property there to assure themselves of the

10     value of that property, and then they would come back to Serbia and sign

11     a contract on exchange, correct?

12        A.   There were cases where people would travel together to Rijeka, to

13     Kraljevica, to make arrangements.  There were such cases where they would

14     see the property first and then exchange it.  That's true.

15        Q.   Is it true that the Serbs from Croatia were expelled in three

16     great waves?  The first wave was in 1991, and they were expelled from

17     places where there was no war, Croatian cities such as Zagreb, Rijeka,

18     Bijelovar, Sisak, Grubisno Polje -- it's not a city; it's a village.  Is

19     it true that before the war, it was first the so-called urban Serbs that

20     arrived from that area?

21        A.   Whether those were urban Serbs or rural Serbs, I don't know, but

22     they were certainly predecessors who wanted the Croat families to leave

23     their properties because they themselves needed it.

24        Q.   Is it true that the second wave was in December of 1991 when

25     there was an exodus from Western Slavonia?

Page 10027

 1        A.   More and more people would come.  Where they were coming from, I

 2     don't know, but there were many of them who came in several instances.

 3     That's true.

 4        Q.   And then the third great wave was after Operations Flash and

 5     Storm in 1995?

 6        A.   Mr. Seselj, we, people of Croat ethnicity, suffered greatly

 7     there, at least mentally, under pressure.  We all remember the Flash and

 8     the Storm operation, but the question is, why were we, people in

 9     Hrtkovci, blamed for that?

10        Q.   Certainly you can't be blamed for Flash and Storm, but we have

11     already agreed that there was an anti-Croat sentiment that surfaced as

12     soon as that first great influx came from Croatia of several hundred

13     thousand, and that sentiment could not be simply terminated on its own?

14        A.   Yes.  This bad sentiment could be felt from the Serbs, and the

15     Croats had to leave because of that.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am interested in the

17     two first waves, not the wave of 1995 but the two first ones.  Did you

18     actually talk with a Serb that would have been expelled from Croatia?

19     Did you have the opportunity to talk to them, or was there absolutely no

20     dialogue with them?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really like to socialise

22     with people I don't know.  That is a question of my own nature, so I

23     really avoided people I didn't know.  Forgive me for my weakness.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 10028

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You, as a Croat --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I asked

 4     Mr. Seselj to proceed, but I've been thinking, and I'm a bit surprised at

 5     your answer.  I would like to have -- let's move to private session very

 6     briefly.  Mr. Registrar, could we please move briefly into private

 7     session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

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Page 10029

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21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In view of the fact that you said that the Serbs had been talked

25     into leaving --

Page 10030

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in open session.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 4        Q.   In view of the fact that you said that Serbs had been talked into

 5     leaving, are you referring to 1991?

 6        A.   I don't know what year it was, but they were on the move.  I have

 7     a videocassette showing that, a speech made by a distinguished gentleman

 8     who was instigating people to leave.

 9        Q.   How can a distinguished gentleman make several hundred thousand

10     Serbs leave Zagreb, Rijeka, Varazdin, and many other Croatian cities and

11     have these people take their women and children and leave practically

12     everything that they had acquired during the course of their life?  Who

13     could do that?

14        A.   Force is the distinguished gentleman I referred to, and I will

15     put that under quotation marks.  However, these people would not want to

16     leave on their own just as the Croats didn't want to leave.  It was

17     simply force major.  One had to leave.

18        Q.   So someone forced these Serbs to leave?  Isn't that right?

19        A.   If so many of them had left, it would be very surprising that it

20     was voluntary.

21        Q.   You do know that the first Serbs started leaving when the Tudjman

22     regime came to power; isn't that right?

23        A.   I'm not blaming anyone.  I'm not approving of anything as far as

24     the situation is concerned, but evil things happened on both sides.

25        Q.   So we do agree that evil things happened on both sides.  Now, let

Page 10031

 1     us discuss where it was first that the evil cropped up and where it was

 2     worse in terms of their consequences.

 3        A.   Mr. Seselj, I am the one who should speak of that least of all.

 4        Q.   All right.  If you should not speak about this, then we're not

 5     going to dwell on it any longer.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question.  You

 7     said that they were convinced by speeches; but according to you, who

 8     convinced them?  Is it the Croatian authorities or other entities?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said to Mr. Vojvoda

10     Seselj that it's not for me to say who had made the call.  I personally

11     have a video-recording of the gentleman's speech, and what was said was

12     that people should be on the move.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you just said "Vojvoda

14     Seselj."  Why are you saying that?

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're in open session.  Could

19     we please redact, Mr. Registrar.  I tried to stop you, but you were

20     faster than I was.

21             So you're saying that you're using "vojvoda" because that is what

22     is relayed in the press.  Very well.

23             Mr. Seselj.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the witness says

25     "vojvoda" because I really am a Chetnik vojvoda, and I'm proud of that

Page 10032

 1     title.

 2        Q.   Mr. VS-0061, now we're going to deal with the first rally of the

 3     Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci on the 6th of May, 1991.  You were not

 4     present at that rally, right?

 5        A.   I wasn't.

 6        Q.   It is only from other persons that you heard that some things had

 7     been mentioned during the rally; isn't that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Are you aware of the fact -- or rather, do you remember that this

10     rally was held within the pre-election campaign for the first federal

11     elections in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia towards the end of May

12     1992?

13        A.   People I socialised with told me that your purpose was to

14     establish your party.

15        Q.   To establish a branch of the Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci and

16     to make a pre-election speech, right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The people who attended the rally, did they tell you that I was

19     presenting the election programme of the Serb Radical Party?

20        A.   Yes, and among the many things that I was told, I remembered many

21     good things as well.

22        Q.   I talked about economics, social, cultural programmes, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And in passing, I spoke of the ethnic issue, right?

25        A.   Yes, that was mentioned as well.

Page 10033

 1        Q.   In view of the fact that you did not attend the rally - but you

 2     did read the newspapers and you watched television; you listened to the

 3     radio - I assume that you'd have to remember had I during this election

 4     campaign presented two theses.  The first one, due to the fact that

 5     Tudjman's Croatian authorities had expelled thousands of Serbs from

 6     Croatia, I attacked the regime in Serbia because it did not carry out

 7     measures of retorsion.  "Retorsion" means retaliation.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have an

 9     administrative question.  I noted that in Binder -- in the Prosecution's

10     Binder number 3, there is -- we can find your speech, the speech you

11     gave.  And if I'm right, this speech comes from a book that was published

12     by the Serbian Radical Party.  In the documents in Cyrillic, we have this

13     speech, and this speech is translated into English in the Prosecution's

14     binder.

15             Given that this speech is extremely important, the judgement will

16     be made in French, and I don't want to run any risk as to a possible

17     misinterpretation of the words you used in your speech, so this will have

18     to be really very carefully translated.

19             I checked and wondered whether I could obtain a French

20     translation -- a perfect French translation of this speech that's in

21     Cyrillic from CLSS.  I was told that here we don't translate from B/C/S

22     into French.  We translate from B/C/S into English and then the English

23     is translated into French, so we do have a problem here.

24             The head of the CLSS -- the head of the department --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

Page 10034

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- speaks all three languages

 2     and can control what is being translated, but as of now, we don't have a

 3     translation.  B/C/S into French, you know, that would be 100-per cent

 4     perfect.

 5             Maybe given your resources and what means you have at your

 6     disposal, maybe you could obtain a French translation using the services

 7     of a Serbian official translator who could actually do the job.

 8             Here at the Tribunal, we don't go directly from B/C/S into French

 9     for written translations.  I wanted you to be aware of this so you know

10     exactly what the situation is.

11             Ms. Dahl.

12             MS. DAHL:  Yes, Your Honour.  I wanted to note that the

13     publication of Mr. Seselj's book containing text from the speech is not

14     contemporaneous, nor is it necessarily a verbatim recording.  He has

15     published the speech in two different books.  One indicates a stoppage of

16     a tape and an incomplete recording, so I just wanted to qualify that it

17     is some evidence of the speech but certainly not conclusive.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That is very

19     important.  Thank you.

20             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor after this digression.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this speech was

22     first published in a book of mine before there was any intimation that an

23     indictment would be issued against me in The Hague, so what is recorded

24     on videocassette was recorded on paper too.  If this witness has a

25     videocassette of the speech, it would be a good thing if it were to be

Page 10035

 1     brought here because no one could have known then that it would be needed

 2     one day to have it broadcast in its entirety.  What is clear from the

 3     speech is that I did not read any list or name any names, and in the

 4     indictment it says that I made lists and named names.  So some things are

 5     clear already.

 6             As for the translation of this speech into French, the Registry

 7     would have to take care of that.  I don't have the resources or the

 8     possibilities to do that.

 9             Unfortunately, I had a good lawyer who had a very good knowledge

10     of French.  He was on my team.  Dragan Tasic was his name.  Regrettably,

11     he died a few months ago.  He provided invaluable assistance to me when I

12     needed to have some things translated from French.

13             You remember when I cross-examined Yves Tomic, that Prosecution

14     expert witness, that I then had text in the French language thanks to

15     Dragan Tasic, that associate of mine.  He died a premature death, and I

16     cannot deal with the French language any longer.

17             At any rate, I have to ask this witness about some things that

18     have to do with that speech.  The witness already confirmed that in May I

19     had already publicly advocated retorsion and I attacked the regime in

20     Serbia for not carrying it out.  It is retaliation, actually.  If the

21     Croatian authorities were expelling Serbs from Croatia, I was attacking

22     the Milosevic regime for not responding the same way.

23        Q.   Isn't that true, sir?

24        A.   It is true, but why do the innocent have to suffer?  Who was

25     innocent there?  Your people and my people.  This is a sin that will have

Page 10036

 1     to be atoned for.  No comment.

 2        Q.   I fully understand you, but in that situation that was one of the

 3     solutions to an already existing problem; don't you agree?

 4        A.   Yes.  Regrettably, it was one of the solutions when there wasn't

 5     a better one.

 6        Q.   In a more normal situation, it wouldn't have crossed anyone's

 7     mind to advocate that kind of thing, right?

 8        A.   Thank God.

 9        Q.   But by then, hundreds of thousands of expelled Serbs had reached

10     Serbia.  In that unbearable situation, this came up as one of the

11     possible solutions by itself, although it is painful.  I agree that it's

12     painful.

13        A.   It is painful, but the question is that someone had to instigate

14     all of that.

15        Q.   We know who instigated all that:  the Tudjman regime in Croatia.

16     Isn't that right?  There is no one else.

17        A.   I cannot say anything.  I'm not involved in politics.  We are a

18     smart people.  Let us read people's minds.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Witness, could

20     you please specify this for us?  You said that you did not hear the

21     speech directly.  You heard about it.  I would like to know whether you

22     were told that in this speech there was hints at retorsion or retaliation

23     measures, retaliation, which is the word used by Mr. Seselj.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would see two or three people at

25     a time, at the most.  They were visibly frightened, and they said, "Sir,

Page 10037

 1     we have to leave."  I don't want to state in public anything that I had

 2     heard from other people.  I already said I'm not interested in that

 3     speech.  However, they left, saying that they felt that they needed to

 4     leave as soon as possible.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The people who attended the rally, did they tell you that at one

 8     point in time during this speech, I stated that when the Serb

 9     Radical Party comes to power, we would resolve that problem more easily;

10     we are going to give expelled Serbs Croat addresses, and we're going to

11     say, "Go there and exchange property with these people"?  Did they tell

12     you that?

13        A.   Yes, they did tell me that, and I found it in many newspapers,

14     and this became extremely popular among the Serbs who had come from

15     Croatia - you did - and things like that.

16        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that I'm not denying the fact that I

17     advocated such political positions at all?  I confirm this to this day.

18        A.   In a civilised way, you were sharply against both.

19        Q.   All right.  You say in one of your statements that I mentioned

20     some names during the rally; isn't that right?

21        A.   Names?  That was never uttered by me.  I heard things from other

22     people, and I said that I don't want to speak about that.

23        Q.   Other people told you that I mentioned the names of some Croats

24     from Hrtkovci?

25        A.   Yes, including my own.

Page 10038

 1        Q.   Do you know who mentioned your name and in what context?

 2        A.   When names are mentioned, tensions run even higher and the

 3     pressure is even greater.  We were pressured to leave as soon as

 4     possible.  That was their conclusion, not my personal conclusion.

 5   (redacted)

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Page 10039

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10   (redacted)

11             Ms. Dahl, maybe you could explain your reasons.

12             MS. DAHL:  May we discuss this in closed session so we don't

13     increase the amount of redactions.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a few seconds, then, now.

15             Mr. Registrar, could we please briefly move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 10040

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)  It's difficult for you, I know.  We all make mistakes.

19             Thank you.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you know who Mate Markus is?

22        A.   Mr. Seselj, I know all of these people to this day.  We

23     socialise.

24        (redacted)

25        (redacted)

Page 10041











11 Page 10041 redacted.















Page 10042

 1     (redacted)

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what is the truth?

 3     Who knows whether this is true or not?  I know nothing about that.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Dahl.

 5             MS. DAHL:  May we go into private session for a moment, please.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know what?  If these names were

Page 10043

 1     uttered in 1992, then everybody remembers that, I guess, and it is well

 2     known which names were uttered, but it doesn't matter.

 3        Q.   Mr. VS-0061, since at the time of the rally of the Serbian

 4     Radical Party you were in Hrtkovci, did you hear that there was no

 5     incident whatsoever at the rally?

 6        A.   Yes, I heard that everything was conducted in a civilised,

 7     orderly manner.

 8        Q.   Do you know that a lot of Croats attended the rally?

 9        A.   Yes, there were.

10        Q.   They couldn't have liked my words concerning Croats and Croatia,

11     but perhaps they liked some other things that I said?

12        A.   Both are true.

13        Q.   Do you know that there was a large number of people from the

14     neighbouring villages there?

15        A.   Yes, I know that because so many people could not have come just

16     from Hrtkovci.

17        Q.   So during that campaign, we didn't have time to tour all places

18     in Serbia.  We just selected certain places, and then we would call

19     people from neighbouring villages; isn't that right?

20        A.   Yeah, that's what it seems like.

21        Q.   There were people from Mikinavci [phoen], Paticova [phoen], and

22     some other places?

23        A.   Yes, even from the south of Serbia.

24        Q.   You mean from the other bank of the Sava River; that's what you

25     had in mind?

Page 10044

 1        A.   Yes, the vicinity of Sabac.

 2        Q.   Yes, because Sabac is just across over the bridge?

 3        A.   Yes, correct.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you challenge the figure.

18     He says that there were 100, approximately.

19             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In examination-in-chief, you stated that the greatest wave of

22     departures of Croats from Hrtkovci came after the killing of

23     Mijat Stefanac?

24        A.   Yes, Stefanac.

25        Q.   Can you confirm that?

Page 10045

 1        A.   After your speech and especially after the killing of

 2     Mr. Stefanac, the number of people departing increased.

 3        Q.   The murder of Stefanac was almost two months after my speech,

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  Well, if that was May, then two months later, yes.

 6        Q.   You stated to The Hague investigators that the murder of Stefanac

 7     has not been resolved to this day?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of that, whether it has been resolved or not.  I

 9     heard that some people were accused.  Now, whether it was fully resolved,

10     I don't know.

11        Q.   I apologise, but that's not what your statement says.  Let's see

12     what your statement says.

13             Paragraph 32 of your statement which you gave in 2006, would you

14     please put it on the ELMO?  It's very important.  There's just one

15     sentence there but quite remarkable.  Could that be placed on the ELMO,

16     please.  If not, we'd rather not waste time.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The image must not be broadcast

18     outside the courtroom.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Paragraph 32 of your 2006 statement.  This is page 9.

21             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'm unclear about the display on the

22     ELMO.  Everyone has a copy of the statement in the courtroom, I believe,

23     and the witness can look at his text, but putting it on the document

24     camera is designed to broadcast it.  So I'm a little confused and would

25     like to ask for some clarification.

Page 10046

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Theoretically, the Registrar

 2     can stop or prevent the picture from being broadcast.  There seems to be

 3     a problem because we don't have it on our screens.

 4             Since everyone has a paper copy, put your question, Mr. Seselj.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 32 of your 2006 statement, there is just one

 7     sentence:

 8             "The murder of Mijat Stefanac was never solved."

 9             Correct?  Do you have it before you?

10        A.   Yes, I have it, Mr. Seselj.  I can see that.  As far as I'm

11     aware, it hasn't been solved.  If it has been, then I beg everybody's

12     forgiveness, but I'm unaware of that.

13        Q.   I have a whole set of documents here.  I published them in my

14     book (redacted)  I'm not

15     going to put the entire book to you.  We will simply see from these

16     documents that the murderers of Stefanac were arrested on the same day

17     and tried later on.

18             This is the first set of documents starting on page 6, the

19     documents that I had photocopied today.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.

21             MS. DAHL:  In January, the Chamber redacted the title of the book

22     because of its offensive nature, and I would ask that that same decision

23     be repeated today.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

25     does not want to hear such offensive words.  In the interest of justice

Page 10047

 1     and in the interest of persons, I would like to ask you not to use such

 2     offensive, inappropriate terms.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not attributing

 4     anything to anyone.  What I said was quite appropriate.  This is the

 5     correct title of the book.  I can't change the title now after it's been

 6     published in 3.000 copies and then several thousand more copies were

 7     downloaded from my web site.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the title of the

 9     book in a number of countries would have been subject to a legal action

10     to ban such titles being used because of the terms used.  I don't know

11     what's happened as far as the interested party is concerned.  Maybe she

12     did not resort to any legal action.  Whatever the case may be, this

13     Tribunal cannot use such offensive terms, and I would adopt the same view

14     if the situation were the other way around.

15             Let's now focus on matters of substance and hear your question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please place on the ELMO -

17     all of these documents can be shown to the public because they deal with

18     the murder of Mijat Stefanac - just to describe briefly how this all

19     unfolded and so that you can give me your position on that.

20             Do you have this set of documents?  I provided them today so that

21     they can be photocopied for everybody, including OTP and the Trial

22     Chamber.  It's the first set of documents and then the second subset

23     within the first set, page 6.

24             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I appreciate that this is Mr. Seselj's

25     first time conducting a trial, but the vague references to the material

Page 10048

 1     without numbering or date or further reference leaves me unable to

 2     identify what he's referring to, particularly because I can't read the

 3     documents.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, when you introduce

 5     a document, say, for instance, that this is an article from the press

 6     published on such-and-such a day, stemming from such-and-such a newspaper

 7     or review, so please give us a number, and then everybody understands.

 8     I've seen a number of newspaper articles pass before my eyes, but just

 9     specify that you are placing such-and-such a document on the ELMO.  Give

10     us a place, name, and date of the article.  This avoids the Prosecution

11     from getting on its feet, and we save time thereby.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am putting to the witness the

13     official note of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia,

14     Sremska Mitrovica SUP, dated 29th of June, 1992, compiled by Milorad

15     Popovic, authorised official -- police official.  And if we show it to

16     Mr. Stefanac [as interpreted], then with his assistance we can learn of

17     the contents of this document.  When he sees it, when we put it on the

18     ELMO and he will tell us about it, then you will learn what's in it.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You are quite

20     right.  However, you could have supplemented this by saying that this

21     document was given to you by the Ministry of the Interior, you had asked

22     to have a copy from them, and you could have got up and said, "This is a

23     forged document," and so on and so forth.  So you have to tell us what

24     the source of this document is, whether it comes from the archives, your

25     lawyers, or whoever may have given you these documents.

Page 10049

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm convinced that the Prosecution

 2     has had this material for quite a long time, but that's not the most

 3     important thing.

 4        Q.   Do you have this document before you now, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   I still don't have it on my screen.  Oh, there it is.  All right.

 7             Do you see that this is the official note of the

 8     Sremska Mitrovica SUP?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you want me to read this, this first sentence, or would you do

11     that?

12        A.   You mean the first sentence:

13             "On the 29th of June, 1992, after the person suspected of the

14     murder of Mijat Stefanac from Hrtkovci were taken in - namely, Mladjen

15     Kekerovic, Momcilo Vidakovic, Branislav Kalinic, Pero Lukac, Petar

16     Zagarac, and Dragan Lazarevic - these persons have been processed in the

17     Crime Investigation Department.  Their clothes were checked, as there was

18     a suspicion that on the trousers of Mladjen Kekerovic as well T-shirt of

19     Momcilo Vidakovic, there are blood traces.

20        Q.   We don't need to go on further.  Since Stefanac was killed on the

21     night between the 28th and 29th of June, isn't it clear that immediately

22     on the following day, the 29th of June, the policemen from

23     Sremska Mitrovica arrested six perpetrators of this crime?

24        A.   This murder took place between St. Vitas's day and St. Peter's

25     Day, and I see from the documents that this was done, but I didn't know

Page 10050

 1     about this earlier.

 2        Q.   Let's move on to the next document now.  We see here that Mladjen

 3     Kekerovic is being sent to detention.  You see the text down there.

 4     Perhaps I'll read it.  Perhaps I can read it faster, and then you can

 5     confirm whether I'm reading right or not.  There is --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note:  It is too fast for

 7     interpretation.

 8             MS. DAHL:  Reading the document would put the interpreters

 9     behind, and I cannot follow without the interpretation.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please try and slow down.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's not read it, then.

12        Q.   Do you see in the first sentence that Mladjen Kekerovic is being

13     sent to detention because he had killed Mijat Stefanac from Hrtkovci?

14        A.   There is no mention of Kekerovic here.  There is Vidakovic,

15     Momcilo.

16        Q.   Have a look up there below the heading "Rjesenje," "Decision."

17     It says Mladjen Kekerovic, and then further down it says that he did it

18     together with Momcilo Vidakovic, right?

19        A.   I don't see the name of Kekerovic anywhere.

20        Q.   Do you see "Rjesenje" up on the top of the document?

21        A.   Oh, yes.  Yes.  Sorry, I see it.

22        Q.   So it is a decision stating that Kekerovic, Mladjen, is being

23     detained; and then further down, Vidakovic, Momcilo, is being named as an

24     accomplice?

25        A.   Yes, I see all of that.

Page 10051

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have the next document now,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   Pero Lukac is also sent to detention.  Do you see his name here

 4     underneath the word "Decision"?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   However, the disposition is somewhat different because this is

 7     the crime of violence imperilling the rights of citizens, so he is a

 8     participant in the violence that preceded the killing.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let's move on to the next page now.  Dragan Lazarevic was also

11     detained.  Do you have the other page on the ELMO?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Do you have the papers before you?  Can you please be so kind as

14     to leaf through it yourself so that we don't have to keep calling the

15     lady in all the time?  She can put it all in front of you, and then you

16     can just leaf through it.

17        A.   Please go ahead.

18        Q.   Now we have a decision on the detention of Dragan Lazarevic,

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the disposition down here says why it is that he was

22     detained?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we've seen all

25     these documents.  What the Chamber is interested in is this :  Whether

Page 10052

 1     after the investigation there was a trial or not.  This is what matters

 2     to us, so -- whether the perpetrators of the murder were tried and

 3     convicted.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if you're so impatient,

 5     Mr. President, I have the judgement.  If you leaf through these

 6     documents, then you will see that, again, there is a decision on

 7     detention, and then there is an on-site investigation report, and then

 8     the judgement, which is page 16 in this set of documents.  This is the

 9     judgement of the District Court in Sremska Mitrovica.

10        Q.   Have you found it, Mr. VS-0061?  Have you found the judgement on

11     page 16?  It says "16," and there is a handwritten numeral.

12        A.   I can't find it here.

13        Q.   The lady will help you.  Page 16.

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  Stop.  We

19     were in open session, so we'll have to redact some portions.  I asked you

20     not to mention any names, nor to tell us what you do in life.  We are in

21     open session.  We shall redact this.  We can make up for the mistake.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Have you found page 16, please?

24        A.   Yes.  "In the name of the people..."

25        Q.   Yes.  "In the name of the people..." and then the judgement is

Page 10053

 1     handed down.  And then it says that the accused, Mladjen Kekerovic, and

 2     then his information follows, correct?  And then the second accused,

 3     Momcilo Vidakovic, and then his personal details, and then the personal

 4     details of the rest of the four accused, correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then we have something concerning Mladjen Kekerovic.  He is

 7     guilty because on the 28th of June, 1992, having arrived in his vehicle,

 8     Mercedes license plates, to Nikinci, to -- with Mijat Stefanac, for some

 9     reason they were travelling in the car together, weren't they?  And since

10     Stefanac asked him to drive him from Hrtkovci to Nikinci, and then they

11     went to a bar and they drank in a bar, and then there was a brawl in the

12     bar, and then -- please go to page 19, the handwritten 19 numeral.  And

13     then it says that he is guilty of manslaughter -- of manslaughter.

14             This was a murder committed in a brawl between two people who

15     were drunk, and he was sentenced to four years and six months in prison,

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And he's guilty of unlawful possession of weapon -- unlicensed

19     possession of weapon?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Ms. Dahl.

21             MS. DAHL:  For the Chamber's convenience, I have the 1992

22     indictment, the 1992 judgement of conviction, and the 1995 Supreme Court

23     confirmation of convictions for the crime of violence related to an

24     ethnic group.  I have them in translation and wanted to tender.  I made

25     copies.  I didn't know if this was going to come up in cross-examination,

Page 10054

 1     but I have a full set for the Chamber.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can I ask the witness:  Sir, do you know these

 3     people who were convicted for the manslaughter of Mr. Stefanac?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I saw them,

 5     but I personally don't know them.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you happen to know their ethnicity?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So they were members of the Serb community?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They come from the Serbian nation,

10     Serbian community.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, if I can assist you,

12     these people are not from Hrtkovci.  They came to Hrtkovci on some

13     business, and they met with Stefanac.  They wanted to sell a vehicle, and

14     then they got drunk in a bar and started arguing.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yeah.  I was just trying to establish the

16     ethnicity because I think this is an issue which obviously is of some

17     importance to this question.  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me get to the

19     point.  With these documents, we have seen that those people who had

20     killed Stefanac were tried, and this was confirmed in 1995 by the Supreme

21     Court.  Now, when you are interviewed by the OTP in 2006, in paragraph 32

22     you say that the murder was never resolved.  So I'm dumbstruck by this

23     because there was a trial, people were convicted, and judgements were

24     handed down.  The investigator, if he'd done his job properly, should

25     have known that an investigation had been carried out and a judgement had

Page 10055

 1     been rendered.

 2             So when you discussed this murder with the investigator, the

 3     investigator knew nothing about this?  Didn't the name ring a bell?  What

 4     do you remember?  Because you, in your position, maybe you didn't know

 5     that the perpetrators had been apprehended and convicted, but the

 6     investigator according to his mandate must prepare a perfect case file,

 7     that he discussed the issue of this murder without mentioning anything

 8     that had happened and let you say that the murder had never been

 9     resolved, I must say I am a little surprised by this.

10             When you were in contact with the investigator, do you remember

11     anything?  When you said this, sir, didn't he say anything and he just

12     moved on to paragraph 32?  Do you remember anything about this?  Because

13     when we read paragraph 30, 31, and 32, something is being demonstrated

14     here, and there is a demonstration.  And when there's been a judgement,

15     well, the two don't really tally.  Do you remember what the investigator

16     told you at the time, or was it just plain sailing and nobody noticed

17     anything?  And these were high-profile investigators.  Do you remember

18     anything?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I found

20     out that some persons had been convicted.  I was not aware of the names.

21     Among all of these people, one of the guilty parties was convicted as

22     well.

23             As for the killing of Mr. Stefanac, I was not aware of the fact

24     that the case had been resolved altogether.  I had begged for forgiveness

25     a few moments ago.  I did not know myself that it was a solved murder

Page 10056

 1     case and that the murderer had been convicted, and then the gentleman

 2     from The Hague Tribunal just stopped.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you learned about

 4     it, but when?  Before 2006?  When did you find out that someone had been

 5     convicted for this murder?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned about it in 2004.

 7     However --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You learned about it in 2004.

 9     But when you're saying that the murder was not solved, that's not true.

10     When someone is convicted, the murder has been solved.  So why do we have

11     this sentence in your statement?  When you read -- when you reread your

12     statement, it says the murder was never solved.  Obviously, it doesn't

13     tally.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg for forgiveness.  I have

15     already said that I'm glad that it was resolved.  However, I was ignorant

16     of this.  I thought that it had not been solved.  I made a mistake, and I

17     kindly ask the Trial Chamber for forgiveness.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, one last question.  You

19     know, I could go on for hours, but I have one last question.

20             When you signed your statement in your own language, handed to

21     you in your own language, did you very carefully reread all sentences?

22     Did you go -- scrutinize every word, every sentence before signing, or

23     were you just handed the statement and you just signed it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement was read out before

25     me, all of it, and I signed it without having a single document.  They

Page 10057

 1     didn't give me a single document for keep.  What I signed at that moment

 2     I believed was the most sincere thing possible.  However, there seems to

 3     be this omission, and I am sorry.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the interpreter read the

 5     English version, and you listened to it, and then you signed.  Very well.

 6             Mr. Seselj.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know how much I

 8     abhor closed sessions, but the question that I'm about to put now is one

 9     that you will probably say can reveal the witness's identity, so I'd like

10     to draw your attention to that fact in advance.  The question that

11     follows is a question like that, but I would be the happiest of all if

12     the witness had not sought protective measures.  So -- well, perhaps

13     you'll consider this question to be one that merits private session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move into

15     private session.  Mr. Registrar, please.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10058











11 Pages 10058-10093 redacted. Private session.















Page 10094

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, you may leave.

23     Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for everything.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 10095

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're now in open

 2     session.  The Registrar is going to raise the blinds.  It would be nice

 3     to have a remote to do that.

 4             Mr. Mundis.

 5             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             I rise to my feet simply to ask for an extension of the word

 7     limit with respect to the Prosecution's response to Mr. Seselj's

 8     submission number 394.  I believe, if memory serves me, that response was

 9     5.000 -- or that motion was 5.650 words.  We would ask, respectfully, for

10     a similar word limit in order to file our response.  That would be point

11     number 1.

12             Point number 2.  It is my understanding --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Let me consult

14     with my colleagues on this one.  I'm in favour of this, and on behalf of

15     the Trial Chamber I grant you this motion.  So you can exceed the word

16     limit.  But let me tell you, as I already said, I always grant these

17     types of motions.

18             MR. MUNDIS:  And we are always grateful for that, Mr. President.

19             The second request would be concerning the same response.  It's

20     my understanding that our response is due today.  I would ask that we be

21     given one additional day.  If that's acceptable, we will file that

22     tomorrow.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me consult with

24     my colleagues.

25             Yes.  There, again, we grant your motion.  We understand that you

Page 10096

 1     are running into a lot of difficulties to be on time, and we grant you

 2     this extension.

 3             MR. MUNDIS:  And, finally, as indicated earlier this week,

 4     tomorrow I will be circulating by way of e-mail the updated list of

 5     witnesses that remain to be called.  What I have done is placed all of

 6     the information on one table rather than two but made an indication

 7     that's clearly marked on the document, and it's a self-explanatory

 8     document.  And that will be distributed no later than the close of

 9     business tomorrow.

10             There are no additional changes with respect to the witness

11     calender for next week, so I would propose that I not recirculate that.

12     The calender as it was circulated last Friday remains in effect at least

13     with respect to next week, but I will be circulating the revised or

14     updated witness list tomorrow, and we will be responding to Dr. Seselj's

15     submission 394 --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it would be nice if

17     we had a colour chart because that way, you know, we can make a

18     difference between viva voce witnesses and the 92 ter witnesses, and a

19     colourful life is more pleasant than a sad and black-and-white life.  So

20     please put some colour into your chart, if you may.  I know that you can

21     do it.

22             MR. MUNDIS:  It's absolutely in living colour, Your Honours, and

23     you'll have that tomorrow.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             As for next week, Monday there's no hearing; Tuesday is a

Page 10097

 1     holiday, so we will only be sitting for two days, Wednesday and Thursday.

 2     We're sitting in the afternoon.

 3             Furthermore, how long have you set aside for the

 4     examination-in-chief of this witness?  Two hours equals a day, after all.

 5             Ms. Dahl.

 6             MS. DAHL: [Interpretation] Two hours.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that you will make a

 9     record of when I showed goodwill and that when I need time, in turn you

10     would be just as generous towards my request.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I never doubted

12     your goodwill to make sure that these hearings run smoothly.

13             It was almost time to adjourn.  I now wish everyone a good

14     afternoon.  I want to thank Mr. Seselj's associates for having come to

15     this hearing.  I hope that their financial -- the financial problems will

16     find a solution as quickly as possible so that we can see you again very

17     soon in this courtroom.

18             Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

21                           October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.