Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10309

 1                           Tuesday, 7 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.34 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             This is Tuesday, October 7, 2008, and I would like to greet the

12     representatives of the OTP, Mr. Seselj, as well as everyone helping us.

13             A witness is scheduled.  Are there any protective measures that

14     have been requested?

15             MR. MUNDIS:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  No protective

17     measures.  That's good news.

18             Let's bring the witness into the courtroom.

19             Mr. Ferrara, how long have you scheduled for this witness?

20             MR. FERRARA:  Three hours, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Three hours.  Excellent.  Let's

22     bring the witness into the courtroom.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Good morning, Your

Page 10310

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us your

 3     name, surname, and date of birth.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we cannot hear the witness

 5     from the background noise.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Do you have a job

 7     at the moment?  If so, what job?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At present, I'm a farmer at a farm.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified in a

10     court regarding what happened in former Yugoslavia, or is this the first

11     time that you are testifying.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you please

14     read the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  ALEKSA EJIC

18                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

20             Before giving the floor to Mr. Ferrara, who is going to examine

21     you, I have a few details to tell you, and I also have a few questions to

22     ask.

23             This is the information I would like to convey to you:

24             You are a Prosecution witness.  You've been called by the

25     Prosecution.  You have now made the solemn declaration, and you are now a

Page 10311

 1     witness of justice.  Everything you are saying is under oath.

 2             The procedure here is a bit specific.  You might not really be

 3     very familiar with it.  You are supposed to answer questions that will be

 4     put to you by the Prosecutor, on your right, and this should take about

 5     three hours altogether.  The Prosecutor will put questions to you and

 6     present you with a number of documents.  After this very important phase,

 7     the Prosecution phase, we will move on to the second phase, because the

 8     accused, Mr. Seselj, who's on your left, can cross-examine you for

 9     exactly the same amount of time.  His questions will have two purposes;

10     your credibility as a witness as well as the content of the answers you

11     gave.  The three Judges on the bench in front of you might also ask

12     questions to you at any moment, notably regarding documents that will be

13     submitted to you.

14             We will have 20-minute breaks every hour and 15 minutes, but if

15     at one point in time you don't feel very well, feel uneasy, would like a

16     break, just ask for it, raise your arm and ask for it.

17             You are under oath, as I told you, which means that now you are

18     no longer supposed to be in contact with the Prosecutor.  When tonight

19     you come back to your hotel room, you are not supposed to contact the

20     Prosecution.

21             I have a couple of questions for you, very briefly.

22             Before coming here, were you contacted by the Defence of

23     Mr. Seselj?  Did you have any contacts?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you --

Page 10312

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how they introduced

 2     themselves, actually.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you briefly tell us what

 4     happened?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the first contact was over

 6     the telephone, through the chairman of the basic cell of the

 7     Radical Party, Mr. Zeljko Dosen, who asked me whether I wanted to have

 8     contact with them or, rather, the Defence lawyers wanted to contact me,

 9     and I said that they were free to come.

10             After that, they did come, and a certain Mr. Sarovic, who I met

11     for the first time then, had a few questions in relation to what I knew

12     concerning my testimony.  My brief answer was that I made a statement to

13     the Prosecution and that I would repeat that in court, and that I didn't

14     wish to discuss it with him.  And that's how the matter ended.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This conversation, was it

16     cordial or was it a bit tense?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one could say that it was

18     normal.  I wasn't too excited.  There weren't any pressures exerted

19     against me, or any threats, or anything of the kind.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  After you said --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.  I would like to

22     add one more thing.  There was a proposal from their side as to whether I

23     wished to make a deposition in court for Mr. Seselj's Defence.  My brief

24     answer to that was, "No."

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After you told them that you no

Page 10313

 1     longer wanted -- that you did not want to testify on their behalf because

 2     you were a Prosecution witness, did you get new phone calls telling you

 3     that you should change your mind, or did everything stop?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were other telephone

 5     contacts.  Dosen and Mr. Sarovic called me in relation to the proposal

 6     made, since local elections were being repeated, they suggested to me

 7     that I be a candidate for a municipal assemblyman and to join the party.

 8     I refused that.  There were no other contacts or suggestions made.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.  The only thing

11     is that when I arrived here, I was informed by my daughter that Mr. Dosen

12     had phoned and asked about me, which upset me further and caused concern.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your daughter told you that

14     Mr. Dosen had phoned, but Mr. Dosen is a member of the Serbian Radical

15     Party in your municipality?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the president of the local

17     committee in Hrtkovci.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At any point in time, was your

19     daughter offered a job?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the first contacts made by

21     Dosen, he said that they could help me in that way, that they could even

22     give my daughter a job perhaps, and proposals like that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but your -- did your

24     daughter get job offers; yes or no?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.  Probably

Page 10314

 1     the answer is "no," since she did not tell me about it.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for answering these

 3     few questions regarding the conditions prevailing and which -- and the

 4     conditions which made it possible for you to come here to freely testify

 5     for the Prosecution.

 6             Mr. Ferrara, you now have the floor and you may put all your

 7     questions to the witness.

 8             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Ferrara:

10        Q.   Mr. Ejic, just in relation to these last questions, were you ever

11     threatened or approached regarding your decision to be a Prosecution

12     witness from people of your village?

13        A.   Yes, but I don't know their names.  I know their faces by sight.

14     I was stopped twice, once in the main street and the other time in a

15     small back street when I was on my bicycle.  The question was, "Ejic,

16     stop.  Could I ask you something?  Is it true that you are a Prosecution

17     witness against Seselj?"  I smiled and briefly said, "No," and went on on

18     my bike.  That first time, there was no other reaction or threat.

19             The second time, though, it was in a back street.  Then even a

20     threat was issued against me in the following vein:  "Be careful.  Think

21     of where you're supposed to go back."  I did not engage in dialogue.  I

22     continued on bicycle.  I went where I wanted to go, and there were no

23     other threats against me.

24        Q.   Were you ever accused that you got some money from the

25     Prosecution to be a Prosecution witness?

Page 10315

 1        A.   Well, not exactly accused.  A friend of mine from way back,

 2     Pero Mandic from my street, said to me once in the street -- or, rather,

 3     asked me the following:  "People are talking around the village that you

 4     are a Prosecution witness and that you received 5.000 Euro in order to

 5     testify."  And my answer to him was, "I don't even want to discuss the

 6     trip without 50.000 Euro."  So that is how I stopped this conversation

 7     with him.

 8        Q.   Was your answer sarcastic?

 9        A.   Well, precisely, yes.

10        Q.   Did you receive any money from the Prosecution to come and

11     testify?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Was any member of your family ever approached regarding your

14     testimony here?

15        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

16        Q.   Was any relative, any member of your family, ever contacted by

17     somebody regarding your decision to come to testify before this Tribunal?

18        A.   No, no, I was the only person contacted.  However, once my

19     daughter happened to be with me when I had this contact once at the

20     office in Belgrade with the representatives of the OTP.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Let's move to that.

22             Your Honours, I think we should redact this part of the testimony

23     regarding his contact with the Radicals and this approach.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm opposed to that.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff asked a question

Page 10316

 1     first, so I believe he should be answered first and then Mr. Seselj will

 2     have the floor.

 3             Mr. Ferrara, my colleague just asked you why we should redact.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I think that there is the -- still

 5     pending the motion regarding the conduct of the associates of the accused

 6     with our witness, is the reason.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, there is no rule

 9     saying that one of the parties is forbidden from contacting the witnesses

10     of the other party.  The Prosecution has just responded to my motion to

11     protect Defence witnesses, that they have the right to have contacts, and

12     they invoked Judge Schomberg's statement from another case, and in this

13     way they invoke case law.

14             Secondly, none of my associates threatened this witness, and the

15     witness never accused any one of my associates.

16             Thirdly, when the witness refused to cooperate with

17     Nemanja Sarovic, Nemanja Sarovic never appeared to see the witness again.

18             Fourthly, the offer made to him by Mr. Dosen to be a candidate in

19     the local elections, that's their very own affair, it's their own village

20     affair.  It's a small village and everybody knows each other, and they

21     are having extraordinary elections now for the municipality of Ruma.

22             This witness is a member of a party which, in a way, was an ally

23     of the Serb Radical Party in the post-election negotiations after the

24     Republican elections held in May.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I wanted to ask the

Page 10317

 1     witness exactly the same thing, and then I thought that's not really

 2     worth it, but now I would like to ask a question after all.

 3             Witness, please, earlier you told us that you had been offered to

 4     be a candidate for local elections for the Serbian Radical Party, and you

 5     declined, and I wondered why.  Is it because you're a member of another

 6     party?  And Mr. Seselj just said that you are a member of another party.

 7     Could you tell us whether it's true or not, and if you are a member of

 8     another party, which party?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.  I'm a member of

10     that party.  However --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why didn't you say so?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no one asked me.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wanted to put the question to

14     you, but tell us, okay, which party do you belong to?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The party of the New Serbia, Nova

16     Serbia.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us who the

18     leader of this party is?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Velimir Ilic.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe I understood that

21     there are going to be extraordinary elections, and you are going to be on

22     the list of that party.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Elections are about to be held, but

24     I wasn't a candidate at the previous elections, the regular ones.  These

25     are extraordinary ones at the Ruma municipality.  Now I'm not a candidate

Page 10318

 1     now either because I am not involved in that kind of thing anymore, but I

 2     did become a member last year, and that's the way things stand now.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I must confess that I'm not

 4     really very familiar with the political situation in Ruma and around

 5     Ruma, but could you please tell us whether your party, the party you

 6     belong to, New Serbia, is it a party that is in opposition to the Serbian

 7     Radical Party at the moment?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not in opposition to the

 9     Serb Radical Party because at present, well, there was this combination

10     that they would form a coalition in Belgrade, but in Ruma, as far as I

11     know, there is a coalition between the Democratic Party of Serbia and the

12     Party of the New Serbia.  That's the coalition that is running in the

13     election.  That is to say that these two parties are not in coalition

14     with the Serbian Radical Party.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This fully answered

16     my question, and I am now enlightened on the political situation in Ruma.

17             Mr. Seselj, please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm saying this only by way

19     of argument in order to oppose redactions in the stenographic notes.

20     There is nothing that should remain secret, that should be concealed from

21     the public.

22             After the elections in the month of May, the Serbian Radical

23     Party and the coalition that this witness belonged to, the coalition

24     between Kostunica and Ilic, or rather the Democratic Party of Serbia and

25     New Serbia, concluded an agreement to establish a government in Serbia.

Page 10319

 1     This agreement was concluded with the Socialist Party of Serbia.

 2     However, they betrayed us then and joined the other camp.  That's why

 3     that government was not formed.  With the Democratic Party of Serbia and

 4     the New Serbia of Velimir Ilic, we have agreed to establish local

 5     government wherever possible in Serbia.

 6             During the previous mandate, the Serbian Radical Party was in

 7     power in Ruma.  Now it was impossible to establish a new government after

 8     the previous elections, so the elections are being repeated and at this

 9     local level, we are simply seeking allies to win power again.  That is

10     the core of the matter.

11             There is absolutely no reason to redact the transcript

12     whatsoever.  I'm explaining that to you.  I'm presenting arguments for

13     that.  I did not want to delve into the political situation now.

14             What the Prosecution is asking for doesn't make sense at all.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber

16     will deliberate on this immediately.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After a lengthy deliberation,

19     Judges believe that there is no need to redact anything.

20             Mr. Ferrara, you may continue your examination-in-chief.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Mr. Ejic, can you describe your education for the Chamber?

23        A.   I am an agricultural technician in the field of crop production.

24     I have a secondary education.

25        Q.   Are you married?

Page 10320

 1        A.   Yes, I am married.  I have two children, a son and a daughter,

 2     and three grandchildren.

 3        Q.   Where did you live in 1992?

 4        A.   Where I was born, in Hrtkovci, the street of Ive Lole Ribara,

 5     number 46.  I live there to this day.

 6        Q.   What was the ethnic makeup of the village until the --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Witness, you

 8     gave us the name of your street where you lived.  Do you believe that

 9     this could stay in the transcript, or would you rather this address not

10     be made public?  It is as you like.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I first had

12     contacts, I decided to be a protected witness.  However, after having

13     realised that half of my town, and even more than that, knew that I would

14     be a witness, I decided to change that and to testify in public.  If I

15     had the courage that was required in situations that were far more

16     difficult to go out public and make statements to the media at home and

17     abroad, I think it is right to speak up now as well so that the

18     broader-world public would find out.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             Mr. Ferrara, please proceed.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Mr. Ejic, what was the ethnic makeup of the village before the

23     start of the war?

24        A.   Prior to the falling apart of the former Yugoslavia, to my

25     knowledge, the ethnic composition was as follows:  Between 50 and

Page 10321

 1     60 per cent were of Croat ethnicity; some 30-something per cent were

 2     Hungarians, and the remaining 10 or so were Serbs or, rather, Orthodox

 3     residents, including the Romas.

 4        Q.   Can you shortly describe for us the relationships between the

 5     different groups before the start of the war?

 6        A.   The relationships in our town were such that one didn't feel this

 7     ethnic diversity.  There were many mixed marriages.  I am in one such

 8     marriage.  I'm a Serb -- or, rather, there were marriages where Serbs

 9     were married to Croats or Hungarians and so on.  There were some

10     individual incidents and cases of excessive behaviour where people

11     expressed ethnic hatred or intolerance, but only at the time when

12     Yugoslavia started falling apart and a multiparty system was introduced.

13     Prior to that, there were no such cases.

14        Q.   I forgot to ask you.  What's your ethnicity?

15        A.   I'm a Serb by ethnicity.

16        Q.   Did this relationship change, and what would you describe the

17     reason for this change, if any?

18        A.   These relations changed after Yugoslavia fell apart, especially

19     after the first wave of refugees arrived from Croatia and other areas of

20     the former Yugoslavia.

21             Initially, when the multiparty system was introduced, when

22     various political parties were set up, I was one of the founders of a

23     party called the Serbian Renewal Movement.  There were many other parties

24     that were founded at the time; for example, the Party of Croats and

25     Hungarians in Vojvodina, then the Serbian Radical Party, then the League

Page 10322

 1     of Social Democrats of Vojvodina, and so on.

 2        Q.   When?  When was this period of time when you say this change,

 3     when you say the first -- let's see what you say exactly, when the first

 4     wave of refugees arrived from Croatia?  Can you give us a date -- a

 5     period of time, not a date exactly?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Ferrara.

 7     Before the witness answers, I'd like to get back to what you said.

 8             From what I understood, you were one of the founders of the

 9     Serbian Renewal Movement.  You founded this party in your settlement.

10     What I'm interested in is this:  Why did you found this party and what

11     was the purpose of it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially -- or, rather, before I

13     was an activist of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia.  Most people

14     were, because we had a single-party system, and being a member of that

15     party was one of the conditions for finding employment, including myself

16     as well.  That was one of the factors that helped me find a job.

17             Now, as for my motives to found the Serbian Renewal Movement with

18     some six to seven other members was that I liked their programme, I liked

19     their platform, and the leader of that party, who remains leader to this

20     day, Vuk Draskovic, I liked his attitude, I liked his appearances and his

21     ideas.  He did not express any chauvinism.  He only ethnic affiliation

22     and nurturing of Serbian traditions through the party.  So those were my

23     motives.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You've answered my

25     question.  I'm satisfied with it.

Page 10323

 1             Mr. Ferrara, I apologise for having interrupted you.  You may put

 2     your question again.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   So when -- can you give us exactly a date or a period of time

 5     when there was this change in your village in the relationship between

 6     the different ethnic groups.  You say when the first wave of refugees

 7     arrived.  When did it happen?

 8        A.   That was, I think, in 1991, and more pronounced in 1992.  I don't

 9     know the exact date, but it was in springtime.

10        Q.   Did you have any political function at the time?

11        A.   Yes.  At the time, I was the president of the local board.  The

12     previous president, Ostoja Sibincic, had resigned after the first

13     refugees arrived, and he mostly focused on contacts with the refugees,

14     providing assistance to them and being involved with them.  So he

15     resigned.  He also said that he simply became afraid after the Party of

16     Croats and Hungarians was established and decided it was better for him

17     not to be president any longer.  So it was his personal choice.

18             At that time, at the session of the local board, the local

19     commune, I was elected president, and I remained president throughout the

20     entire time until the board was dissolved.  I can tell you more about

21     that later, if you wish.

22        Q.   Why the board was dissolved?

23        A.   My decision for the board to dissolve was grounded on the fact

24     that in the town there were rumours that the SPO party -- or, rather, the

25     Serbian Renewal Movement Party was assisting refugees and their violent

Page 10324

 1     behavior and that it was directing them to act that way, which naturally

 2     wasn't true.  I wrote a communique, and I put it on the board, informing

 3     the residents that it wasn't true and that the local board would be

 4     dissolved.  I also informed the Municipal Board, who supported me in that

 5     decision.

 6             Later on, I was told that Ostoja Sibincic was banned from the

 7     party due to everything that he had done at the time.  He was expelled

 8     from the party.

 9             That was my motive to close down the local board.

10        Q.   What did Ostoja Sibincic do?

11        A.   According to what I know, initially he provided assistance, at

12     the time when the war had just broken out in Croatia, assistance in

13     gathering and sending food and other aid.  We had a campaign and

14     organised all that on one occasion.  There was a truck driven by

15     Mica Trajakovic, who now resides in the United States, and

16     Mica Trajakovic drove the aid we collected in the truck.

17             However, it didn't end there.  He also had other motives; namely,

18     to instigate them to act violently and to threaten in order to pressure

19     local Croats or, rather, local Catholic residents to exchange their homes

20     with the Serbs who had come from other republics such as Croatia or

21     Bosnia.

22             This was the conviction that I held at the time, that was my

23     belief, and I was able to verify it on various occasions, at various

24     gatherings of citizens and based on other sources.  I was able to confirm

25     that.  I think that it was mostly with the assistance of the regime of

Page 10325

 1     Slobodan Milosevic or, rather, the assistance of the Socialist Party that

 2     he was able to implement that.

 3             Later on, in cooperation with the representatives of the Serbian

 4     Radical Party, that mostly consisted of refugees that had arrived, he

 5     also continued his work through them.  Initially, there were also some

 6     local residents involved when the party was set up and their board.

 7        Q.   When did this campaign start?

 8        A.   Well, this campaign started back in the spring, and it was

 9     continued intensely in 1992 and all the way up until his arrest, when he

10     was put in detention due to accusations for these events and some other

11     matters.  That is to say, from April until August or September - I'm not

12     sure exactly when he was arrested - of 1992.

13        Q.   When was the Serbian Radical Board -- Serbian Radical Party board

14     in Hrtkovski created?

15        A.   I think it was in the spring of 1992, because local elections

16     were held at the time, as well as federal elections.  I think that it was

17     during that period of time.  One of the local residents, Slobodan Momic,

18     who initially held the post very briefly in that board, he was the one

19     who told us that.

20        Q.   This Slobodan Momic was the president of the board?

21        A.   He wasn't the president.  He was a member.  According to what I

22     know, the president was a man called Dudic at the time.  I can't remember

23     his first name right now.  I think it's Blagoje, yes, it's Blagoje Dudic.

24     He's a refugee from Croatia.  He exchanged his home at that time.

25        Q.   Do you remember if there was a time when the number of members of

Page 10326

 1     the SRS in Hrtkovci increased?

 2        A.   I think that the number of members increased after the party

 3     rally that was held, when Dr. Vojislav Seselj came to our town on the 6th

 4     of May, 1992.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a short

 6     question for you.

 7             Mr. Blagoje Dudic was someone you knew well?  He lived in the

 8     same village as you did, didn't he?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He does reside there now, but that

10     wasn't the case all the time.  I think that he arrived in 1992, when he

11     exchanged his house.  And I know him.  We're not really close, we just

12     know each other, we're acquaintances.  He's in commerce, and I sold my

13     products to him and he resold them further on.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I shall rephrase my

15     question and talk about Slobodan Momic.  He's someone you know well,

16     isn't he?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know him well.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he tells you that the

19     Serbian Radical Party will be established in your village.  Does he give

20     you any reasons why this party should be founded?  What is the purpose of

21     this?  Why should this party be founded, according to what you know?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't tell me when he had

23     joined the party.  It's just that I learned about that later, when he

24     left the party.  His explanation was that the programme of the Serbian

25     Radical Party was initially acceptable to him.  And later on, when bad

Page 10327

 1     things started happening in our village, he left the party, and he was

 2     one of the participants -- he was one of the local residents who went to

 3     Belgrade to the Federal Secretariat of the Interior to complain about the

 4     situation on our village.

 5             On one occasion, he and I appeared on a radio show at the M Radio

 6     Station in Sremska Mitrovica where we talked about the problems in

 7     Hrtkovci.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question.  I followed

 9     your answers closely.  I understood that you were the president of the

10     Municipal Board at one stage, and through your answers, I gather that you

11     know a lot about the political life there.  And you told us a while ago

12     that you gave interviews to the foreign press.  What I'm interested in is

13     this:  I'd like to know, in 1992, when the Serbian Radical Party was

14     founded, what difference was there between those people that join that

15     party and someone like you?  At the time, was there a difference between

16     the two or not?  Some just joined the one party and other people joined

17     another?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, initially, according to what

19     I know from Momic himself was that he was motivated by the programme.  He

20     liked the programme.  And later on, he saw that programme was one thing

21     and the events on the ground are quite a different matter, and he left

22     the party.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We might be able to

24     understand things better later.

25             Mr. Ferrara.

Page 10328

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Ejic, you say that when the war was spreading in Croatia, you

 3     experienced a change in Hrtkovci in respect to refugees that came to your

 4     village.  How many refugees would you estimate arrived at your village at

 5     the time?

 6        A.   I can't remember exactly what the figure was.  Initially, perhaps

 7     100 to 200 people, and then at one point in time the situation was such

 8     that there were almost as many refugees as residents, or approximately as

 9     many, over 1.000 of refugees who had come from Croatia and Bosnia and

10     Kosovo.

11        Q.   Where did they stay?

12        A.   Initially, the first refugees were housed at the Polet

13     agricultural property, where they had accommodation for seasonal workers,

14     and that's where they were housed.  And then some individuals were housed

15     in individual homes.  Later on, they started entering houses of residents

16     who were absent, whose houses were vacant because the owners lived

17     abroad.  There were cases of violent entry and occupation of those

18     houses.  That was the situation.

19             There were also many cases where residents were evicted from

20     their own homes.  And then after police intervened, they would be allowed

21     back into their own homes, but there were cases of intimidation, threats,

22     even physical violence, and residents were afraid.

23        Q.   When did this start, these illegal activities?

24        A.   These illegal activities became especially prominent after the

25     pre-election rally of the Serbian Radical Party was held.

Page 10329

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 2             Witness, for the time being, things are moving on very quickly.

 3     I'd like to get back and go back in time a little bit before we discuss

 4     those illegal activities.

 5             We learned from you that a lot of Serbian refugees come to your

 6     village, and at some point you say that there were a thousand refugees

 7     and they were greater in number than the local residents.  If I

 8     understand correctly, during that time you held a position in the

 9     municipality, didn't you?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're quite right, if you're

11     referring to -- initially, we, at our own initiative and based on the

12     proposal of the council of the local commune, whose representative was

13     Dobrosav Markovic at the time, we set up a board with constant duty

14     shifts near the local office, municipal office, in order to collect aid,

15     humanitarian aid, and to give advice if needed.  I was a member of that

16     board myself, which lasted for about a week.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not addressing humanitarian

18     issues.  I am interested in security issues.  We have a case where Serbs

19     have been expelled from Croatia, and they arrive and they are certainly

20     displeased, which is quite understandable.

21             In your village, there are Croats who live there also, so there

22     might be a problem between those people who have been expelled and the

23     Croats, who might be blamed for having taken part in these expulsions.

24     At that time at the municipal level, since you held a position inside

25     this municipality, did you warn the police or state authorities that

Page 10330

 1     certain measures needed to be taken to avoid any clashes, i.e., illegal

 2     occupation of flats or any form of mistreatment?  Is or was there an

 3     awareness that problems could occur; any political speeches, any

 4     political decision?  The clash between a great number of refugees and

 5     local residents, some of whom were of the same ethnicity as some of the

 6     refugees, did this lead to a particular awareness, i.e., that problems

 7     might occur?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now your question is much more

 9     clear, Your Honour.  Yes, according to what I know, certain activities

10     were conducted by local authorities, by the local council led by

11     Dobrosav Markovic.  He used to be a policeman.  That was his occupation

12     earlier, so he had contacts, he had acquaintances in the Secretariat of

13     the Interior of Ruma Municipality.  He would send delegations.  He would

14     go with delegations to the SUP to inform them about the situation and

15     that there was a danger that things could escalate due to the large

16     number of newly-arrived residents who had come to our village.

17             There were also gatherings of residents held, devoted to this

18     topic, where people were told that the situation needed to calm down so

19     that there would be no escalation of problems.  I personally took part in

20     many such gatherings and sent reassuring, calming messages to refugees,

21     because I understood their situation, I understood their displeasure and

22     revolt or intolerance towards other ethnic group.  Also, representatives

23     of local authorities used to come or, rather, representatives of

24     municipal authorities would come to these gatherings, so they were

25     informed as well.  Then there were the journalists, who informed the

Page 10331

 1     public about what was going on.

 2             The Socialist Party, who was in power at the time, also took

 3     certain steps in order to calm down tensions.  A police station was even

 4     set up in our village precisely because of the danger that existed and

 5     incidents that had already occurred.  We were also visited by leaders of

 6     various political parties from Vojvodina.  They would come to gatherings

 7     in the beginning, calling upon citizens to remain calm and to find a way

 8     to coexist peacefully together, saying that there was sufficient space in

 9     Vojvodina, that there was no need for any violence or expelling of

10     residents, as had happened in Croatia.

11             However, none of this was sufficient, and we know what happened

12     afterwards.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You've answered my

14     question in a very detailed way.  What you've just said is very

15     important.

16             If I understand correctly, all the political parties were aware

17     of what was happening, and amongst others, the Socialist Party which was

18     in power.  And you added something, and you said they set up a police

19     office to deal with the problem.  So all the political parties did what

20     they needed to to avoid problems occurring.  This is what I should infer

21     from your answer?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not entirely in that way.

23     Most of them, yes, but the party that was in power, they did not engage

24     themselves to a sufficient degree.  I personally believe that the now two

25     late presidents, Slobodan Milosevic and Tudjman, had a personal agreement

Page 10332

 1     to exchange the population, so I'm not fully convinced that the Socialist

 2     Party truly wanted to prevent this exchange of population.  They just

 3     wanted to control the situation, to keep it under control, so as to avoid

 4     an armed conflict between local residents and refugees.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is very interesting.  So

 6     according to you, at least in your opinion, Slobodan Milosevic and

 7     Mr. Tudjman had a personal agreement to exchange the population.  This is

 8     really your opinion?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I believe, and

10     most of the public too.  I think it was published that there had been a

11     secret agreement between the two of them.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

13             Witness, please, you told us that at one point in time some

14     leaders of political parties came from Vojvodina to try and cool things

15     down.  Could you expound on this, please?  Could you tell us exactly

16     which leaders came from which party in order to cool things down?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I can remember,

18     there was this lady who was a representative of the League of Social

19     Democrats of Vojvodina.  Then there was this gentleman who was a

20     representative of the Hungarian Party and this joint Hungarian-Croat

21     Party, and this other person whose name I cannot remember.  I think that

22     later on he was Minister of Agriculture, but I cannot remember exactly

23     now what his name was.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was there also a leader from the

25     Serbian Radical Party who came to cool things down?

Page 10333

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that rally, no.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want you to bear in mind that the

 5     Serbian Radical Party did not exist then.  The initiative committee was

 6     established only in April 1992.  I'd just like to draw your attention to

 7     that fact.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I had noticed that.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Was there -- I

10     can't remember the name of the movement, you know, the movement that was

11     before the Serbian Radical Party, which brought together Serbian

12     nationalists.  Could you help me on this one, please?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I know, only the

14     Serbian Renewal Movement.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That was the one.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did a leader from the Serbian

17     Renewal Party also come, like all others, to cool things down?  I think

18     that was the reason behind the question put to you by Judge Lattanzi.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Later on, they spoke up, just

20     like their president Vuk Draskovic did.  This was on the basis of my

21     contacts with him and also through the Ruma board.  In public, they made

22     statements in order to cool the situation down, calm it down, and also

23     treat the way -- treat the refugees differently.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they did intervene, but a

25     bit later; is that it?

Page 10334

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the representatives of the

 2     Serbian Renewal Movement did not come to the village officially to attend

 3     rallies.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Maybe we have a bit

 5     taken up the questions that you wanted to put, Mr. Ferrara, but now you

 6     have the floor again.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour, absolutely.

 8        Q.   Mr. Ejic, did Vojislav Seselj come to cool things down when he

 9     came in Hrtkovci?

10        A.   I don't think he came to cool things down.  He did not call for

11     violence when he spoke, but I don't think his intention was to cool

12     things down.  In public, he said he wanted to support reciprocity in

13     conduct, that the Serb authorities should behave the same way towards

14     non-Serbs who are not loyal, in his opinion, just as the Croatian

15     authorities have been treating non-Croatians.

16        Q.   Can you tell us exactly when and where you saw him in Hrtkovci,

17     of course?

18        A.   I first saw him on the 6th of May, 1992, when this one-and-only

19     rally of the Serbian Radical Party was held in our village.

20        Q.   Was anyone escorting him or accompanying him?

21        A.   As far as I could see, I think that he came with three cars and

22     that he had some trouble with his car, I think with the tire, in front of

23     Dip Sava, a socially-owned enterprise at the time.  So from that

24     particular location to the stage where the rally was held, he came on

25     foot, escorted by the people who were accompanying him.

Page 10335

 1        Q.   How would you describe these men who were accompanying him?  Were

 2     they armed; how were they dressed?

 3        A.   Well, the people who were with him, who were his personal

 4     escorts, were not armed.  I only noticed a youngish person who had a

 5     knife at the belt.  However, some other people, who came before he did,

 6     were armed.  They walked through the centre of our village, that is to

 7     say, from the centre itself to the venue where the actual rally was held.

 8     That is to say that these people did not come with him, they arrived an

 9     hour before him, and they passed through our village on foot.

10        Q.   Did you witness any preparation for the arrival of

11     Vojislav Seselj at the rally?

12        A.   Well, in passing, as the stage was being prepared just before he

13     came, I was curious.  I was interested in attending the meeting itself,

14     so I did come.  I walked around.  I walked through the main street too,

15     and that is how I noticed this group of people whom I did not know, who

16     were wearing black clothing like the Chetniks in the Second World War.

17     They had weapons, pistols, knives, also bandaliers.  I think that their

18     objective was to create fear, and a different psychological atmosphere

19     among the local population just before the meeting -- the rally would

20     start.

21        Q.   Was anyone with Seselj on the stage while he was giving his

22     speech?

23        A.   Yes.  As far as I can remember, Dr. Vojislav Seselj was the third

24     speaker, the last speaker, after the introduction made by Blagoje Dudic,

25     Zilic spoke, and then a lady.  I think she was from Ruma or, rather, the

Page 10336

 1     Municipal Party Board from Ruma, I think.  That's what I think.  After

 2     the two of them, Vojislav Seselj spoke.

 3        Q.   Let's start with the first speech.  So the first one to speak was

 4     Blagoje Dudic; I'm right?  Yes.  What did he say?

 5        A.   Yes.  Well, I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was just a

 6     few introductory remarks, a speech of welcome, things like that.

 7     Immediately after that, Zilic spoke.

 8        Q.   What did Zilic say, and who is Zilic?

 9        A.   Zilic is a refugee from Croatia, rather, Zagreb, who had come

10     among the first refugees.  After the violent takeover of power in the

11     local commune, he was also on the council of the local commune.  I know

12     that after that, he left the village of Hrtkovci.  I don't know exactly

13     where it was that he went.  I cannot recall exactly everything that he

14     said, but what left a lasting imprint in my memory was the list of local

15     inhabitants that he read out.  He claimed that their children were in

16     Croatia or, more precisely, they were members of the ZNG.  He said that

17     they were not loyal citizens of the Republic of Serbia and that there was

18     no place for them in Hrtkovci.

19             I remember that among these names, the following ones were

20     mentioned.  These were eminent citizens from the village, like

21     Dr. Branko Vuksanic, then Lulic, Branimir Lulic, who was one of the

22     farmers, then the director of Dip Sava, a socially-owned enterprise at

23     the time, then the director of the cooperative in the village, and some

24     other names that I cannot recall exactly.  If you show me a document

25     where the names are listed, I can put a circle around the names that were

Page 10337

 1     read out on that day.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness.  The

 3     speech which Mr. Seselj is going to give on that day is a very important

 4     element in the indictment, and therefore we, as Judges, must really be

 5     very careful regarding this speech.  I'm just like a person that has to

 6     make an autopsy; I really have to look into everything and scrutinize

 7     everything.  So before continuing with the content of the speech, I would

 8     like to know first what had motivated Mr. Seselj for coming to that

 9     place.  Was he giving a speech that was part of an electoral campaign?

10     Was he here to give a speech in order to promote himself?  Did he come to

11     give a speech in order to promote his party?  Was the purpose to have a

12     meeting or a rally with the population because of the problem connected

13     with the Serbs that had been expelled from Croatia, or was there another

14     reason to this meeting, to this rally?  I mean, you were there, you were

15     on the spot.  You attended the rally, and you heard the speech, and I

16     would like to know exactly what was the circumstances prevailing at the

17     time.  So could you try and enlighten us on this, please?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my opinion and belief

19     is the following:

20             A day or two earlier on, posters were put up and, it was

21     broadcast on Radio Ruma that a promotion rally of the Serb Radical Party

22     would be held in relation to the forthcoming elections.  So Mr. Seselj,

23     himself, spoke along those lines.  However, what had happened before the

24     rally itself is what I remember and what astonished me at the time and

25     that led me to make a different conclusion, was the security provided for

Page 10338

 1     the rally itself.  Every 100 metres, roughly, there was a policeman with

 2     an automatic rifle along the road or, rather, in the street.  They were

 3     providing security for the group that passed there, the armed group that

 4     I described when I spoke previously.  Traffic had been stopped from the

 5     center itself to Dip Sava, and the traffic was channeled through the back

 6     streets.  That reminded me of the times when the late president

 7     Josip Broz would pass through.  He had that kind of security.  So I found

 8     that to be a bit strange.  I never realised that an election rally could

 9     be secured in that way.  That led me to conclude that this rally had some

10     other intentions too.  It wasn't just part of the election campaign, as

11     had been made public.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The very impressive police

13     machinery that had been set up, I presume that it was under -- they were

14     reporting to Mr. Milosevic, weren't they?  I believe that this decision

15     must have been made at a very high level in order to place a great number

16     of policemen at the disposal of this meeting; right?  What can you say

17     about this?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, exactly.  I agree with

19     you.  This does make me believe and conclude that the authorities had

20     very good information and representatives of state security in the

21     village itself.  That is how they organised this security, because they

22     had assumed that there might be an armed conflict between the locals and

23     the refugees and the participants in the rally itself.

24             As for what I said during my previous remarks, namely, that in my

25     view there had been an agreement between the two presidents, that was

Page 10339

 1     actually being carried out in practice.  This kind of security provided

 2     led me to that conclusion too.  I think that at the time

 3     Dr. Vojislav Seselj was a tool and that unconsciously he had been used by

 4     the then president, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, or rather his regime.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I had an objection,

 6     but I didn't want to interrupt the answer being provided to your

 7     question.  I would just like to draw your attention to the following:  We

 8     haven't come to my speech yet.  The witness has spoken about

 9     Milan Zilic's speech at the rally, so I'd like to draw your attention to

10     that.

11             Since the Prosecutor proffered the entire content of the rally

12     here as evidence, I think that this is unfair.  I think that the

13     Prosecutor should show the witness Milan Zilic's speech, and then we

14     should compare the names mentioned by the witness and the names mentioned

15     by the Prosecutor.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  You

17     want to discuss the content of the speeches of those who spoke before

18     you, but I was trying to find out what had happened earlier.  I wanted to

19     know exactly what was the motivation for this rally to be held, and I

20     wanted to know what were the circumstances prevailing.  And the witness

21     has provided us with a wealth of details.

22             I believe that during the cross-examination, you can come back on

23     certain things which I thought were extremely interesting and very

24     enlightening.

25             Mr. Ferrara is asking questions on what the others said before

Page 10340

 1     you.  This is where we were, and I will now give the floor to

 2     Mr. Ferrara, again apologising for having interrupted him.  I really

 3     wondered what were the motivations for the rally.

 4             But, Mr. Ferrara, you have the floor.

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   The names that you mentioned before, the names mentioned by

 7     Zilic, do you know their ethnicity?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.  They were Croats and Hungarians.

 9        Q.   What happened to them later?

10        A.   Most of those who had been mentioned at the rally later moved

11     away or, rather, exchanged their houses with the Serbs who had come from

12     Croatia.  One person remained, Lulic.  I think that he's one of the

13     people from that list who had not carried out an exchange, who rather

14     went on living in Hrtkovci, Branimir Lulic.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, do we want to start now with the

16     analysis of the speech of Vojislav Seselj or do you want to have a break

17     before, which is in five minutes.  It will be longer.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that we need to

19     analyse Mr. Seselj's speech, of course, but we better have the break now.

20     That way, we can discuss the content of the speech after the break.

21             Let's break for 20 minutes.

22                           --- Recess taken at 9.55 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.16 a.m.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

25             Mr. Ferrara, you have the floor.

Page 10341

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Ejic, let's move to the speech held by Dr. Seselj.

 3             So after this Zilic, who spoke after Mr. Zilic?

 4        A.   The lady from Ruma.  I can't remember her name.

 5        Q.   And what did she say?

 6        A.   I don't think I actually remember that.  I cannot remember

 7     exactly what it was that she said.

 8        Q.   Can you describe for the Trial Chamber, to the best of your

 9     memory, exactly what Vojislav Seselj said during his speech?

10        A.   Dr. Vojislav Seselj, when he took the floor, first had an

11     objection, in terms of the loudspeaker, and he asked for the persons

12     gathered there to get closer to the stage.  Access to the stage was

13     restricted.  There was a ribbon there by way of an obstacle.  And then he

14     asked for it to be removed so that people could get as close as possible

15     to the stage.  He also said that there weren't that many people present,

16     so they could get closer to the stage.

17             After the usual greeting, "Brothers and sisters, Serbs," he moved

18     on briefly.  He spoke of his programme.  I can't remember his words

19     exactly, I can't remember the details, but it was the usual thing, what

20     he said on television and in other situations.

21             What I remember well is the following:  Since he did not

22     criticise the list that was read out by Zilic, in that way he actually

23     supported the first speaker, along with a remark that he or, rather, his

24     party also knew the names of the children who were in the ZNG, children

25     from Hrtkovci who were members of the ZNG, people who had dodged

Page 10342

 1     mobilisation into the Yugoslav Army, in his view, since he stated then

 2     that he advocated reciprocity in conduct, as far as the Serb authorities

 3     were concerned.  He said that all disloyal ethnic Croats and Hungarians

 4     whose children were in Croatia -- rather, in the ZNG, there was actually

 5     no place for them in Hrtkovci.  He also added that they would be more

 6     humane; namely, that they would organise bus transportation for them,

 7     sandwiches, and take them to the Croatian border that way, as opposed to

 8     the Tudjman regime and the way it treated the Serb population in Croatia.

 9     And then the comment was that they can go on foot to their homeland,

10     meaning Croatia, all of those who were loyal.  And then he added that

11     according to his information, there were Hungarian residents who have

12     responded to the calls and were loyal citizens of Serbia and were loyal

13     to the authorities of Serbia, that there was no reason for them to fear,

14     that they would enjoy his protection even, and that he expected them to

15     win in the local and federal elections, and that they would thus

16     implement their policies which were announced in their programme.

17        Q.   Did Vojislav Seselj name anybody in his speech?

18        A.   I can't remember.  I don't think he did.

19        Q.   Did he name again the same people that were mentioned before by

20     Mr. Zilic?

21        A.   He didn't name these people, but he said that he had information

22     that certain residents or, rather, their children were members of the

23     ZNG, thus showing support to that list, but he doesn't name anyone from

24     that list.

25        Q.   How long was the speech?

Page 10343

 1        A.   As far as I can remember, some ten minutes.

 2        Q.   How many people attended this rally?

 3        A.   As for residents, themselves, there were not that many.  Perhaps

 4     some people from that street where the stage was, and maybe some people

 5     from the main street.  Most of the residents were busy with agricultural

 6     works, since that was the main activity in the village, but there were a

 7     lot of people from neighbouring towns, from Ruma and neighbouring

 8     villages.  I base that conclusion on having seen people whom I know from

 9     Ruma who came to the rally, and I think that there were a total of 300

10     attending the rally.

11        Q.   Were there many refugees?

12        A.   Yes.  Most were refugees, people from elsewhere, and residents,

13     local residents, were a minority.

14        Q.   Was Ostoja Sibincic present at the speech?

15        A.   Yes, he was.  He stood on the side of the stage.  He was an

16     organiser, together with Mr. Momic, Blagoje Dudic and other refugees and

17     members of the Serbian Radical Party.

18        Q.   How would you describe the audience response to Seselj's speech?

19        A.   Well, there was acclamation, ovations, applause.  I think that

20     there were even slogans, "Ustashas out," chanted.  I can't remember other

21     details.

22        Q.   Were there specific words or phrases used by Mr. Seselj that

23     generated this kind of response, this acclamation or this slogan?

24        A.   I think that the following was said, "Let them go to their

25     homeland," meaning Croatia, and this is what caused ovations.

Page 10344

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you yourself, did you

 2     stay there, did you stand there, did you boo, did you -- what did you

 3     actually do, personally?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I expressed no reaction whatsoever.

 5     I stood some ten metres from the stage.  I simply observed the reaction

 6     of other people.  I observed them.  I expected such reactions.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Mr. Registrar, can we please see the Exhibit 65 ter

 8     number 1274 on the screen.  It's the transcript of Mr. Seselj's speech

 9     mentioned before by Mr. Seselj, extracted from his book "The Hrtkovci

10     Affair."

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again I insist

12     on looking at the entire document, that is to say, both the speech of

13     Milan Zilic and my speech.  The names listed here by the witness do not

14     correspond to the names given by Milan Zilic.  None of the names

15     correspond, and I don't -- I think that's important because the

16     Prosecutor has to try to establish the truth, no matter what the truth

17     is, even if it goes against the indictment, to its detriment.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have a text which

19     is an excerpt from Mr. Seselj's book.  Mr. Seselj admittedly has written

20     a number of books, and it seems that this book contains the speeches of

21     Mr. Seselj and Mr. Zilic's speech also.  This is something you can check

22     on the screen, because you have the text in your language on the screen.

23             According to what Mr. Seselj says, the names that were quoted in

24     his speech are names which do not match the names which appear here and

25     there.  What do you have to say to this?  Look at this yourself.  You can

Page 10345

 1     see the names.  The Stepic brothers, the Sindric brothers, Paso Mladen,

 2     Mata Markus, Ivica Sostaric, Fortnet, Nemet, and others.

 3        A.   Your Honours, I don't see the names.  In the very beginning, May

 4     elections, and then it says "Ziric."  I don't see that here.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps the third

 6     paragraph could be enlarged and zoomed in.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please look at the third

 8     paragraph.  I've read it in English, but you can see it in the Serbian

 9     version in Cyrillic.

10        A.   It says here:

11             "Dozens of young men, the Grdic brothers, Stepic brothers,

12     Sindric brothers, Raso Mladen, Mata Marcus, Ivica Sostaric, Mr. Fortnet,

13     and Mr. Nemet and others."

14             Now that I have read this, I remember that they were mentioned as

15     well as the names on the list, and then in my evidence, I mentioned

16     another two or three names.  It doesn't say "Samo, Mata," here,

17     [indiscernible] "Grizelj," the director of the cooperative.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Dr. Vuksanic is missing, too.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you explain this,

20     Witness?  How do you explain this, unless the text in Mr. Seselj's book

21     has been abridged or amputated?  How is it that there are some of the

22     names which you heard which could not appear in this text?

23             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, can I --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ferrara.

25             MR. FERRARA:  Also in this speech, after his name, there is the

Page 10346

 1     category of others.  Maybe we should know who are these others not

 2     mentioned in this book, after this long list of names, "Stepic brothers,

 3     Sindric brothers, Mladen, Markus, Sostaric, Fortnet, Nemet and others,"

 4     so I think we should know who are those others, maybe the names mentioned

 5     by the witness.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Ferrara, the issue is whether the text that

 7     has been published in Dr. Seselj's book is an accurate reflection of the

 8     speech held by Mr. Zilic.

 9             MR. FERRARA:  Judge, it's not so accurate because there is the

10     category in the book and others, so maybe Dr. Seselj should explain to us

11     who are these other names mentioned during the speech.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you are right.

13     Perhaps the expression "and others," i.e., those who picked up on the

14     speech have decided to add "and others," but perhaps Mr. Seselj, in his

15     speech, quotes all the names and then gets to Nemet and says, "and

16     others."  We don't know.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to draw

18     your attention to the fact that this book was published before there was

19     any hint that an indictment could be issued before -- against me by

20     The Hague Tribunal, and the Prosecutor knows the exact title of the book

21     and the date of its publishing, so he should tell us that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have one

23     question.

24             Last week, you told us that there were videos.  As far as you

25     know, was your speech recorded anywhere on an audiotape or not?

Page 10347

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is footage of the speech, and

 2     this text was transcribed from the footage.  There were no interventions.

 3     It was reproduced just as it was filmed.  However, I do not have any

 4     communication with my associates, it has been banned, and I cannot obtain

 5     it anymore.  I do not speak about my trial with anybody, except that I

 6     occasionally ask my family members about their impression from the

 7     broadcast that they see.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's imagine that

 9     there is an audiotape which is authentic and which reflects what has been

10     said and that the names that you have mentioned are not quoted in this

11     tape.  What would you have to say to that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The names that appear here on the

13     screen before me were mentioned.  I can't claim with 100 per cent

14     certainty that all of them were mentioned, but I can confirm that one of

15     the names that is not mentioned here was mentioned at the time.  This man

16     is alive to this day or, rather, lives there to this day.  He's a farm

17     worker.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what you said a

19     while ago.  And if I remember correctly, he's called Ilic or something

20     like that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lulic, yes, correct.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Exactly.  I have a good memory,

23     and I record everything in my brain.

24             As far as you remember, Mr. Zilic purportedly quoted Lulic, and

25     in this text Lulic is not mentioned.  This is a mystery.

Page 10348

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.  He was mentioned, as

 2     was the director of the Sava DIP and the director of the cooperative.

 3     They were mentioned, but they do not appear in this text.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me draw your

 5     attention to this:  How come Lulic was mentioned when he never went to

 6     the ZNG, he never went to the regular Croatian Guards, nor did the

 7     director of the cooperative.  The people that are mentioned here were the

 8     people that went to Tudjman's army to fight against the Serbian people.

 9     That was the essence of this speech, not just mentioning all Croats

10     residing in this village.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have already come

12     across this problem when another witness came to testify.  Mr. Zilic

13     quotes some names of residents of your village who join the ZNG, the

14     Croatian National Guards, and he quotes a whole series of names.  This is

15     what we can understand.  Then, according to you, comes Lulic.  Why is

16     Lulic mentioned if he is not a member of the ZNG?  This is why this is a

17     mystery.  Are you quite sure that you can rely on your memory

18     100 per cent?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  You mentioned a secret,

20     Your Honour.  That's precisely what it was about, that prominent

21     residents were mentioned, directors of certain enterprises who later on

22     were the first to be -- or, rather, to exchange their properties, thus

23     prompting other residents to do the same.  So the point was to intimidate

24     and to make the population start with the exchanges.  The people who are

25     on the list, the names --

Page 10349

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I understand what you

 2     are saying, and what you are saying is extremely important.  So either,

 3     according to your theory, if Mr. Zilic quotes names and then those people

 4     need to leave their flats or their houses because they can no longer

 5     stay, this is in line with the indictment, or the other theory would have

 6     it another way, and the Bench needs to address all possibilities.

 7             The speech only addressed those Croats that had joined the ZNG or

 8     were going to join the ZNG, and that is another issue altogether.  The

 9     text published by Mr. Seselj, according to him, seems to match the audio

10     version which he has and which the Prosecution seemingly does not have.

11     The audio version does perhaps not mention Lulic anywhere, but if the

12     audio version has been tampered with, then it wouldn't appear.  This is

13     extremely important.

14             Are you quite sure that Lulic was mentioned?  Are you

15     100 per cent certain of this?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's on the

18     transcript.

19             Mr. Ferrara.

20             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             Your Honours, just to be clear, the accused said that this book

22     was published before the indictment was issued.  According to the

23     information that the Prosecution has, the book was published in 2004, not

24     before the indictment was issued but after.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not true, Mr. President.

Page 10350

 1     This was published twice.  The first time, it was published as part of my

 2     collected works, and then the second time it was published in 2004 as

 3     part of the book "Devil's Associate."  So that was the second time in

 4     2004.

 5             I provided to the Prosecution, in 2003, a set of my entire works,

 6     and it was handed over to them in this courtroom.  You can see this

 7     recorded in the transcripts from status conferences.  So all of these

 8     books, 80 of them in total, were published long before I arrived in

 9     The Hague.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, I remember that

11     Mr. Seselj had told us that he had handed over dozens of books to the

12     OTP, so if we're not mistaken, there are two books where his speech is

13     mentioned, the book of 2004 - that's straightforward here, you are

14     right - but it seems that there is also another one that was published

15     earlier.  We can't check this right now, but I believe that you will have

16     ample time to check that, as well as Mr. Seselj.  He will also have ample

17     time to prove whatever he wants to prove.

18             So please continue, Mr. Ferrara.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Mr. Ejic, could you continue to read the speech, the second --

21     I think that we should move to the second page.

22        A.   Your Honours, if I may add something about these names that are

23     mentioned by Mr. Zilic.  I saw the name here "Raso Mladen."  As far as I

24     know, there was a man, Raso, in my street who now lives and works in

25     Austria.  And then there were the Stepic brothers, if we are referring to

Page 10351

 1     the same Stepic brothers.  One lives in Hrtkovci to this day, and the

 2     other one lives in Novi Sad.  Then Sindric brothers, they have left.

 3     They had exchanged their houses.  As for Sostaric, there is a family

 4     under that last name.  One brother lives in Hrtkovci, the other one in

 5     Ruma, but I doubt that they could have been members of the ZNG if they

 6     live in Hrtkovci to this day, providing we are speaking of the same

 7     Stepic brothers or Sostaric brothers.

 8             I would like to deny that, what Zilic had read, he could not have

 9     had information, nor did he know these people or their children.  I think

10     that this list has been put together by Sibincic and the others, and this

11     is how these names came to be here.  That's what I wanted to add.  This

12     is my opinion concerning the names mentioned here.

13        Q.   Do you remember if --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, I have an objection.

15             Mr. President, I think that you need to intervene, now that there

16     is this attempt to turn things upside down.  We're not speaking about

17     whether all the information in the speech of Milan Zilic was accurate or

18     not.  We're speaking of what Zilic uttered.  Did he say what is mentioned

19     in his speech, as is reproduced in this document, or are we speaking

20     about something else?  Zilic is not accused here for uttering things are

21     not accurate.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I know that you're a

23     university professor.  I know that university professors love to lecture,

24     but please refrain from lecturing and don't lecture the Prosecutor and

25     don't lecture the Judges or lecture the Presiding Judge.  Don't lecture

Page 10352

 1     him and tell him what he's supposed to do.  This is unacceptable

 2     behaviour.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, absolutely, there

 4     was no need for you to make your objection.  I had fully understood that

 5     the witness was making his own appreciation of the reason that had

 6     motivated Zilic for mentioning these names.  I mean, that's his opinion.

 7     We all understood that, so don't raise an objection for that.  He

 8     explained that this had been done voluntarily, and he is mentioning other

 9     people, blaming other people, notably Sibincic, for example, but please

10     continue, Mr. Ferrara.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, I think we have exhausted the

12     contents of Zilic's speech, but there is one thing I would like you to

13     clarify before we move on to Mr. Seselj's speech, and that is:  The name

14     that is indicated in the book, it seems to me here the name is Milan

15     Ziric and not Zilic, and I just want to ensure that we're speaking about

16     the same person.

17             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I think so.  This is a translation

18     from -- of course, I don't read Cyrillic, so I don't know what it is in

19     Cyrillic, Zilic or Ziric.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, no, in Cyrillic it's also "Ziric," as far as

21     I can see, but can you clarify with the witness what the name of the

22     person was?

23             MR. FERRARA:

24        Q.   What was the name?  What's the name of this person, Mr. Ejic,

25     Zilic or Ziric?

Page 10353

 1        A.   Zilic.  There's an "R" here.  As far as I know, it was just

 2     Zilic.  That's how he introduced himself, and now I remember that's his

 3     first name, too, Milan.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- or, rather Judges,

 5     this is a mistake, it is a typo.  The people who were getting this typed

 6     up from the tapes didn't know the exact names.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I had also inferred

 8     that this was just a typo.  Obviously, there is a problem here.  The

 9     witness did say that the person's name was Zilic, Milan Zilic, and we see

10     that there's an "R" written in the name.  It must be a typo.  That's

11     marginal, anyway.  What's important is that somebody called either Zilic

12     or Ziric said all this.

13             Mr. Ferrara, please continue.

14             MR. FERRARA:

15        Q.   Just a question about the first part of the speech.  Did

16     Mr. Zilic mention only people whose children were in the Croatian Army or

17     also other people from Hrtkovci, to the best of your recollection?

18        A.   Other people too.  That is what is missing in this list here, the

19     names that I mentioned and added; Samo, Mata, and some others as well.  I

20     can't remember at this very moment.

21             However, in addition to these names, he mentioned other names

22     too.  What was noted was that these were the last names and the first

23     names of the children who were members of the ZNG, but he mentioned other

24     names as well.

25        Q.   Let's move to the speech of Mr. Seselj.  It should be the second

Page 10354

 1     page of the transcript.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  This lady whose

 3     name has not been identified and who introduces Mr. Seselj, when we look

 4     at things closely, this lady seems to be well informed of Mr. Seselj's

 5     programme.  She knows exactly who Mr. Seselj is.  So she sums up

 6     Mr. Seselj's actions very well.  But this lady, did she come from -- is

 7     she a local or did she come from the outside, and did she come just in

 8     order to introduce the main speaker?  As far as you recollect, could you

 9     tell us what happened?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lady is not from our village.

11     I think she's from Ruma.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] She was not known by the

13     population of Hrtkovci; they didn't know her?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             Mr. Ferrara, let's move on to the speech.

17             MR. FERRARA:

18        Q.   So, Mr. Ejic, can you read the speech on your own, of course, of

19     Mr. Seselj and tell us faithfully what you remember you heard that day?

20     Of course, you should focus on the part regarding Hrtkovci, not the

21     entire political programme of the party.

22        A.   I beg your pardon.  Do you want me to read this?  You want me to

23     read it out loud or should I read it to myself?

24        Q.   No, to yourself.  Let us know when you want Mr. Registrar to

25     change -- flip the pages.  If you feel more comfortable with another

Page 10355

 1     copy, we can provide you with a paper copy instead of reading it on the

 2     screen.

 3        A.   There is no need for that.  I can find my way.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, I assume that

 5     during the proofing, you showed him the speech.  He knows the speech;

 6     right?

 7             MR. FERRARA:

 8        Q.   Witness, can we move to page 4 of the speech.  That is the part

 9     regarding -- concerning Hrtkovci.  The English version is page 4; the

10     third paragraph, page 4.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you're moving to

12     page 4, and you intend to go back to the previous pages later, because if

13     not, I have a question on page 3.

14             MR. FERRARA:  Please, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, on page 3

16     Mr. Seselj is going to talk about General Kadijevic and actually blame

17     him.  According to him, he's an American spy, but I believe that this

18     Kadijevic has just been awarded Russian nationality, just a few weeks

19     ago.  So he is really questioning General Kadijevic.  He's saying he's a

20     traitor and blaming him.  Did you hear this?  And if you really heard it,

21     isn't it because Mr. Seselj was contesting the GNA apparatus and even

22     challenging Milosevic, who at the time was president of Serbia and

23     therefore was in charge of the army?  So how can you -- how do you assess

24     this question, because I believe it's a very essential question, a very

25     essential sentence in this speech.  It really helps us assess the entire

Page 10356

 1     situation.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly this part

 3     of the speech because my attention was not focused on the speech itself

 4     that much because through the media I was already familiar enough with

 5     what it was that Dr. Vojislav Seselj was saying.  I was more focused on

 6     the reaction of the audience.  I didn't really pay that much attention to

 7     the entire speech.

 8             This part where there is a reference to Mr. Kadijevic, well,

 9     I think that that is being brought into question, as you yourself have

10     said, Your Honour, but I cannot recall that particular part.  I think it

11     was mentioned, but I'm not 100 per cent sure that I heard it then at the

12     rally or whether I heard it on TV.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

14             Mr. Ferrara, please proceed.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             So let's move to page 4.  It is the part where Mr. Seselj

17     mentioned what's happening in Hrtkovci.  It's paragraph - third paragraph

18     and fourth paragraph.

19        Q.   Please, can you read them, these two paragraphs, and tell us if

20     you -- exactly what you remember you heard that day or if it is

21     missing -- something missing in this transcript.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I demand that the

23     witness read this part out loud.  It is important for the public.  It is

24     the key part of the speech, as far as the indictment is concerned.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're demanding.  You're not

Page 10357

 1     here to demand anything.  Then, you know, the text is on the screen.  The

 2     witness can see it.  On page 4 of the English version, this is

 3     paragraph 3.  So I believe that the Serbian version is also displayed.

 4             Witness, have you read the paragraph dealing with the village?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  He's fully aware, so

 7     please go ahead, Mr. Ferrara.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is the following:

 9             I remember certain passages, but I do not remember all of what is

10     stated in this text, except for parts of individual sentences.  As I've

11     already mentioned in response to one of the questions put to me by

12     Your Honour, all of those who were not loyal had nothing to do in

13     Hrtkovci any longer, those whose children were in the ZNG.  And then the

14     last part:

15             "Brother and sister Serbs, if Tudjman expelled more than 200.000

16     Serbs, a part of them will return to the area of the Serb Krajina, but

17     another part cannot."

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The paragraph starting:  "In

19     this village ..." is an essential paragraph because it is at the very

20     heart of the Prosecution's case.  For everyone to be fully aware of this,

21     including the public following the hearing, please read the paragraph out

22     loud.  Please read it out loud.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour:

24             "In this village, Hrtkovci, in this place in Serbian Srem, there

25     is no room for Croats.  Who are the only Croats for whom there is room

Page 10358

 1     among us?  Only those Croats and their families who have shed blood

 2     together with us on the front-lines.  Anyway, they were called Croats in

 3     name only.  They have already awakened to the fact that they are, in

 4     fact, Catholic Serbs.  Some of them even served with our volunteers.

 5     They will stay here with us, whereas all the rest must clear out of

 6     Serbia, including those from here, from Hrtkovci, who locked up their

 7     houses and left, reckoning, I suppose, that they will come back one day.

 8     But our message to them is:  You have nowhere to return to.  Serbian

 9     refugees will move into their houses."

10             Shall I go on?  Shall I read the rest?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  This was

12     very useful.

13             Mr. Ferrara.

14             MR. FERRARA:

15        Q.   Do you remember this part of the speech?

16        A.   I remember, but not entirely and not in the form of such

17     sentences.  Rather, since this was a very long time ago and it did not

18     remain in my memory, what does remain in my memory is this advocacy of

19     reciprocity.  Then the families whose children were in the ZNG had no

20     room in Hrtkovci.  All the rest should not be afraid.  No one would touch

21     them.  That pertained to the neighbouring localities as well, not only

22     Hrtkovci.

23        Q.   So what message did you take away from the speech?

24        A.   What does the word "loyal" mean and how would it be interpreted

25     by refugees who were expelled from Croatia?  In their minds, this word

Page 10359

 1     would be interpreted in different ways.  Would they check the accuracy of

 2     the allegations read out by Zilic, for instance, or those presented by

 3     Dr. Vojislav Seselj or some other speaker?  That was the key thing.

 4             I believe that actually this was a message to them to the effect

 5     of, "Judge things for yourself and you know what you should do.  You've

 6     been expelled.  You have nowhere to go, whereas Croats and Hungarians are

 7     living here.  Carry out an exchange with them."  That was my

 8     understanding of this, of these words, and that is what I took away with

 9     me from the rally.  Of course, part of it had to do with propaganda for

10     the party programme itself and attacking and accusing Milosevic.  This

11     was a marginal issue, as far as I was concerned.  I did not believe that

12     this was the essence and the main point for which this rally in Hrtkovci

13     was organised.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we've already seen

15     videos showing Mr. Seselj making speeches.  No one will contest that

16     Mr. Seselj is an excellent speaker.  But as far as you remember, when he

17     said -- when he made this speech, was he reading or was he improvising?

18     You held a political position, you've already made speeches probably, so

19     I'm sure you're well aware of this.  So do you think this was an

20     improvised speech or was it a well-thought-out speech with every word

21     been carefully weighted before being said?

22             And just to top off my question:  In the speech, I see "Serbian

23     brothers and sisters" cropping up over and over again.  It comes up at

24     the beginning of some paragraphs.  So one can really wonder about all

25     this.  Do you believe this was an improvised speech or a well-thought-out

Page 10360

 1     speech with every word having been very carefully weighted and

 2     scrutinised?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, Your Honour, I think

 4     this was a usual sort of speech, but with the intention that was there.

 5     It is practice, as far as the speaker is concerned, to address refugees

 6     in this way precisely in order to win over their trust and to show his

 7     compassion with the problem they are facing.  The speech was not read

 8     out; that is to say, it was an impromptu speech, and I believe that he

 9     had conceived of it earlier and prepared it for the rally itself.  The

10     usual term used by Dr. Vojislav Seselj is one that he used at rallies of

11     citizens in order to calm them down and to win over their trust.  I even

12     did it myself, "Brothers and sisters, Serbs," or "polmazebog, may God

13     help us, brothers and sisters, Serbs" and the refugees would always greet

14     that with ovations and pleasure.  This is something that they really

15     liked.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

17             MR. FERRARA:

18        Q.   Can you read the next paragraph, paragraph 4 of the same page,

19     also loud if you like?

20        A.   It's the last one, isn't it?

21             "Brothers and sisters Serbs, if Tudjman has expelled more than

22     200.000 Serbs, part of them will return to the area of the Serb Krajina,

23     but another part cannot settle there.  We have to give those Serbs a roof

24     over their heads and we have to feed hungry mouths.  We have no money to

25     build new housing.  We do not have the capacity ..."

Page 10361

 1             And now the next page.

 2        Q.   Please continue.

 3        A.   " ... to create new jobs for them.  Very well, then.  If we

 4     cannot do that, then every Serb family of refugees should be given the

 5     address of a Croatian family.  The police will give it to them.  The

 6     police will do as the government decides, and we will soon be in

 7     government.  Fine, then.  Every Serb family of refugees will come to a

 8     Croat door and give the Croats they find there their address in Zagreb or

 9     other Croatian towns.  Oh, yes, they will, they will.  There will be

10     enough buses.  We will drive them to the border of Serbian territory, and

11     they can walk on from there if they do not leave before of their own

12     accord.

13             "Some traitors of the Serb people in Belgrade --"

14        Q.   You can stop here.  Do you remember what you have read?

15        A.   I remember these sentences, but I cannot say with 100 per cent

16     certainty that that is what I heard on that day at the rally or whether I

17     heard that on television.  I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I remember part

18     of these sentences, I remember hearing them, things like:  "We will get

19     into power," and the sentence:  "We are going to give addresses to

20     refugees," and others.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the paragraph that you

22     have just read is a paragraph I would like to link with what you had just

23     said about the secret pact that would have been made between Milosevic

24     and Tudjman.  So either there is a secret pact, and if that is so, if

25     Mr. Seselj agrees with Mr. Milosevic, he would say that Croats must

Page 10362

 1     return home, without saying that this will be in the framework of an

 2     exchange of flats, but what really strikes me here is that in the

 3     sentence he actually utters, he says, "When we will be in power, if we

 4     are in power."

 5             It seems that he assumes that a Croat could go to Zagreb to take

 6     a flat only when the Serbian Radical Party will decide or will be in

 7     government.  But then this does not match the theory of the secret pact

 8     between Milosevic and Tudjman, including, you know -- with the

 9     participation of Mr. Seselj.  So could you enlighten us on this, because

10     you came up with this idea.  This might be a bit complex.  I'm just

11     trying to understand and to move forward.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this opinion of mine,

13     this assertion of mine, is based on everything that was happening in our

14     village.  If the police which existed there at the time did not do its

15     job properly, as it was supposed to, if the authorities did not provide

16     accommodation to the refugees in state-owned, socially-owned institutions

17     or, rather, public hotels, socially-owned hotels and other available

18     facilities for housing, rather they sent them -- or rather they allowed

19     them to stay in our village and elsewhere, too, where there was a

20     majority of ethnic Croats and Hungarians.  Then that proves my thesis

21     that there had been such an agreement.

22             As for the very beginning, when all of this started happening, as

23     far as Dr. Vojislav Seselj is concerned, I think that he had convictions

24     of his own and a national programme too, and that basically he lived in

25     the past.  Because of some of the things that had happened in the Second

Page 10363

 1     World War, he was in favour of a certain revengism and his energy was

 2     aimed in that direction; indeed to have this secret agreement carried

 3     through.  I think that later he became part of the federal government,

 4     which is confirmed by -- which, rather, is a confirmation of my thesis

 5     that there had been this kind of a plan, an agreement.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This was your view, that there

 7     had been an agreement between Tudjman and Milosevic, with participation

 8     of Seselj as well, or only between Milosevic and Tudjman?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very outset, Your Honours,

10     I think that it was an agreement between the two late presidents and that

11     later Seselj joined Milosevic and that he was unwittingly used by

12     Milosevic for such a plan.  Milosevic used him to organise many

13     volunteers to participate in the conflict in Croatia.  That is my

14     opinion.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To be more precise, do you

16     think that Mr. Seselj was Mr. Milosevic's puppet or instrument, or do you

17     believe that he used Mr. Seselj, knowing full well what he was doing?

18     Could you specify, please?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I think that in

20     the beginning he was used as a person who had expressed great interest

21     for the problem of Serbs expelled from Croatia.  He wanted to provide

22     assistance and manpower by organising volunteers, and then later on, when

23     all of this unfolded, he became aware and accepted the plan of population

24     exchange.  He did that via his activities and appearances on television

25     through his published works and so on.

Page 10364

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I have an impression

 2     that this witness has been upgraded to an expert.  He has secondary

 3     education.  He's a farm worker from a village, and he can only testify to

 4     things that he personally saw, heard, or experienced.  Now he's

 5     testifying about global politics, about a secret agreement between

 6     Milosevic and Tudjman, and my subsequent joining that agreement.  I think

 7     that this is incredible.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it's for the Bench

 9     to weigh all of this.  Your comment is on the transcript, but it is the

10     Bench that will determine the relevance and probative value of what he's

11     saying.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Ferrara.

13             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Mr. Ejic, can we move to the last part of the speech, exactly the

15     last paragraph.  It should be page 8 in the English version.

16        A.   What I have here is:  "Brothers and sisters, Serbs ..."  Is that

17     what you have in mind?

18        Q.   The last one, starting with:  "I firmly believe ..."   The

19     English version, the third paragraph:  "I firmly believe that you Serbs

20     from Hrtkovci ..."

21        A.   What I have on the screen now I think is what you want.  Can you

22     please put the question?  Should I read this out loud or what?

23        Q.   Yes, read it out loud, please, the last paragraph.

24        A.   "I firmly believe that you Serbs from Hrtkovci and from other

25     villages in the vicinity will also know how to preserve your harmony and

Page 10365

 1     unity, that you will promptly get rid of the remaining Croats in your

 2     village and the vicinity; that you will know how to appreciate the fruits

 3     of freedom and democracy, that united we shall win, unite all the Serbian

 4     lands and overcome the economic and social crisis.  To conclude today's

 5     promotion of the Serbian Radical Party, I salute you with the traditional

 6     Serbian greeting, 'All for the Serb cause, the Serb cause for all.

 7     Serbia will live on as long as her children are true to her.'  Cheers."

 8        Q.   Do you remember the last part of the speech, after you hear the

 9     sentence, "To get rid of the Croats," of course?

10        A.   Unfortunately, I can't remember that sentence:

11             "As for others, Serbia will live on as long as her children are

12     true to her."

13             I remember that one.  I can't confirm "willful certainty" at the

14     very beginning.  Unfortunately, I just don't remember.

15             MR. FERRARA:  I'd like to tender this document into evidence.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll give it an

17     exhibit number.  Registrar, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P547.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like now to move in closed

20     session because I'd like to discuss with the witness one document coming

21     from the Serbian archives.  And according to your recent decision --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's move into

23     closed session for a few moments.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 10366











11 Pages 10366-10376 redacted. Private session.















Page 10377

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

 9             MR. FERRARA:

10        Q.   So, Mr. Ejic, I put the same question again.  Do you know why

11     Hrtkovci was selected as the centre for the rally of the Serbian Radical

12     Party?  You have to repeat what you said in private session.

13        A.   It is my opinion that Hrtkovci was selected as the main location

14     for the events that are being referred to, is based on a fact, something

15     that happened in the Second World War.

16             A column of prisoners from Serbia, from Sabac specifically, that

17     was moving towards Belgrade and went through Hrtkovci, was not even given

18     water.  The locals were not allowed to give them even water or food.

19     Actually, what was being bandied about was that these were Ustashas,

20     because during the war this was the territory of the so-called

21     independent state of Croatia, and the inhabitants of Hrtkovci even threw

22     hot water at the prisoners, and they certainly wouldn't give them water

23     to refresh themselves.

24             My information speaks to the contrary; namely, that all of this

25     is not correct and that there were examples of the contrary, that the

Page 10378

 1     local population threw apples and things like that to them, not hot

 2     water, and that German soldiers were preventing them from doing this.

 3             So there was this accusation bandied about in the public, in

 4     relation to Hrtkovci, that the inhabitants treated the prisoners from

 5     Serbia that were moving in a column inhumanely.  I think that is the

 6     reason why Hrtkovci was chosen as a target, under quotation marks, and

 7     that that is why this was a focal point for organising the rally.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what you're saying is

 9     quite interesting and maybe could be an explanation, but then why do you

10     explain that Mr. Seselj, who has great knowledge of historical events and

11     who often refers to events that occurred during World War II, did not

12     mention this incident during -- in his speech?  I mean, he could have

13     said, "Dear brothers and sisters, I came here because this happened

14     earlier," and this or that, and he does not mention all that.  So how

15     could you explain all of this?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot say why he didn't

17     refer to that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, please continue.

19             MR. FERRARA:

20        Q.   Mr. Ejic, you said at the beginning of your testimony that there

21     was an increasing of the illegal activity, of occupation of the house,

22     after this rally.  Do you remember if some -- any citizen assembly was

23     held after this rally?

24        A.   I remember that after that rally, I don't know what the exact

25     date was, but there were several rallies that were held -- sorry, not

Page 10379

 1     rallies, gatherings that were held of citizens in relation to the

 2     problems that cropped up.

 3        Q.   Did you attend any of them, any of these gatherings?

 4        A.   Yes.  I, myself, attended one of these gatherings, and I was even

 5     one of the organisers of one such gathering, in terms of it having been

 6     scheduled.  However, Ostoja Sibincic took advantage of that, together

 7     with the assembled refugees, and he came to the gathering and said that

 8     he had scheduled it.  On that occasion, there was this verbal clash

 9     between him and myself.

10             When I assessed the situation and when I realised that there may

11     even be a physical showdown, I asked the locals that we leave the

12     premises and hold this gathering in front of the building, and we adopted

13     certain conclusions and sent our proposals to the municipal authorities.

14        Q.   I want to show you this press article at 65 ter number 1593.

15             Please, Mr. Registrar, if you can put it on the screen.

16        A.   I can see it on the screen, if that's it.  "Ostoja threatens the

17     traitors."

18        Q.   Did you attend this meeting mentioned in this press article?

19        A.   I think that I did not attend this gathering, but I remember

20     reading this in the newspapers, and I heard about it from quite a few

21     local people who had also read about it, but also those who had attended

22     the gathering themselves.

23        Q.   Did you attend any similar meeting like this?

24        A.   Well, I attended many rallies of citizens that were similar,

25     similar to this one.

Page 10380

 1        Q.   Were you also to speak during these meetings?

 2        A.   Yes, I did speak, I did take part.

 3        Q.   Did Ostoja Sibincic give any speech during this meeting?

 4        A.   At the meetings that I attended, Ostoja Sibincic did not make

 5     speeches.  It was others who did, Rade Cakmak, and I can't remember all

 6     their names now.  I remember him.

 7             However, there is something of interest in relation to Sibincic,

 8     if that is important for you.  Would you like me to say it or --

 9        Q.   I don't know what you want to say.

10        A.   Well, there was this situation that actually led to something

11     that did happen in practice; namely, I was nearby when Sibincic himself,

12     after such a rally, said to the refugees, "You just go ahead and break

13     into the houses that are free and available, write up documents as if you

14     had signed a contract with the owners, and that will suffice as far as

15     the police is concerned.  No one will be able to do anything to you."

16     For me, this meant instigation, and from that moment onwards the two of

17     us distanced ourselves from each other and had different activities in

18     the future, because I was absolutely opposed to that, whereas he was one

19     of the organisers and one of the people who actually conceived of such

20     events.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Witness.

22             Do you mean that some contracts were fake contracts?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what it means.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25             MR. FERRARA:

Page 10381

 1        Q.   Was Ostoja Sibincic a member of the SRS?

 2        A.   I'm not aware of that, that he was at the time.  I know that

 3     nowadays he's a member of the Serb Radical Party.  What I know is that he

 4     was in the SPO together with me and that later on he left the SPO, and

 5     for a while he was a member of the Socialist Party of Serbia.  Now, as of

 6     late, as far as I know, he's in the Serb Radical Party.

 7        Q.   You mentioned before Rade Cakmak.  Who is this guy, who is

 8     Rade Cakmak?

 9        A.   Rade Cakmak is a refugee from Grubisno Polje, to the best of my

10     knowledge.  He is a person who spoke at such rallies, who took part in

11     the violence that was brought against the inhabitants of Hrtkovci, who

12     was accused and, I believe, convicted of having committed such things, he

13     and his son and some others, I believe, in that group.  He is also among

14     those who unlawfully, illegally, moved into the house of a Hungarian,

15     Andrija Cergi [phoen], who later either sold or exchanged his house.  I

16     know that the man lives in Hungary, and he worked in Austria and Germany,

17     and I think that part of his family is also employed in Austria and

18     Germany.

19        Q.   In this article on the screen, please, can you read the first

20     line, exactly the first line?  No, in the title.

21        A.   The title is:  "Ostoja Threatens the Traitors."

22        Q.   And above it?

23        A.   "Citizens Assembly in Hrtkovci (Srbislavci)."  "Srbislavci" is in

24     brackets.

25        Q.   Can you explain as what does that mean, in brackets,

Page 10382

 1     "Srbislavci"?

 2        A.   "Srbislavci" means that at the time the name of Hrtkovci was

 3     changed into Srbislavci.  Even sign posts were placed at exit and entry

 4     points.  This was done by the local commune.  They passed a decision to

 5     that effect.  At that time, he was the president of Srbislavci/Hrtkovci

 6     or, rather, the local commune.  At that time, it was called the Council

 7     of the Local Commune.  And he became that by force and unlawfully, under

 8     quotation marks, "at a citizens rally" that was mostly attended by

 9     refugees and neighbours from neighbouring villages rather than the

10     inhabitants of Hrtkovci itself, because according to the law, the Council

11     of the Local Commune is elected by the local population of Hrtkovci, not

12     those who are not.  However, he took advantage of the situation.  As he

13     spread fear among the population, the inhabitants no longer responded to

14     invitations to attend -- to attend Assembly meetings because they didn't

15     want to go through the threats that were addressed there.

16             So this would be my explanation of Srbislavci, in brackets.  It

17     was his idea to change the name of the place.

18        Q.   Can you explain what -- of course, we don't speak B/C/S.  Can you

19     explain, what does it mean, "Hrtkovci," and what does it mean,

20     "Srbislavci"?

21        A.   Well, "Hrtkovci" is an old name that has been there since the

22     inception of Hrtkovci.  It's been a long, long time.  As far as I know

23     and on the basis of what is written in some books, there were many dogs,

24     "hrt," hounds.  Perhaps that is how the village got its name, "Hrtkovci,"

25     whereas "Srbislavci" is based on the following association; that the

Page 10383

 1     majority population are Serbs and therefore the village should be called

 2     Srbislavci.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

 4     evidence.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

 6             Before we move to admitting this document, Witness, I have a few

 7     questions to ask about what Mr. Sibincic is saying.  He says that he will

 8     order that a policeman no longer has access to the village.  I also note

 9     that the primary school is being rebaptized, is to be "Vladimir Nazor"

10     and is going to change and be called now "Vuk Karadzic."  I also note

11     that Zelica Tkalac, the teacher, who is a Serb married to a Croat, will

12     be forbidden from teaching.  At least that's what was proposed to the

13     population.  Is that what he was asking the population to do?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just correct you

15     on one point.  The elementary school that was called "Vladimir Nazor" is

16     now called "Milos Srnjanski" [phoen] rather than "Vuk Karadzic."  A

17     street is called "Vuk Karadzic Street."  In relation to the proposal made

18     by Sibincic in connection with the village itself, that is correct.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It seems, according

20     to this document, that he was also in a mixed marriage, or several mixed

21     marriages, actually.  He was first married to a Hungarian and then to a

22     Macedonian woman, which did not prevent him from opposing people who are

23     also in a mixed marriage.  As inhabitants of the village, that's the

24     situation you perceived, and from this Sibincic, that's what he was

25     actually professing?

Page 10384

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know Mr. Sibincic,

 2     Your Honour, he does have an illegitimate child with a Macedonian woman,

 3     also an illegitimate child with a Hungarian woman; and now he lives with

 4     another Macedonian woman with whom he also has a child.  His motives were

 5     of an economic nature.  I think that most of the things he did, he did in

 6     order to benefit from them in material terms.  I think this can be

 7     corroborated by a great deal of evidence, in terms of what happened in

 8     practice; namely, he took money from refugees in order to make houses

 9     available to them and so on.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The document dates -- comes

11     from -- is dated in August.  Now, in August, when Sibincic proffers all

12     this, I would like to know whether, to your knowledge, he was a member of

13     the Serbian Radical Party or not.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no information indicating

15     that he was a member of the Radical Party at the time.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When he states all this, which

17     hat does he have on?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was his custom, when it comes to

19     his political opponents and those who think differently from him or who

20     oppose and who state publicly what is going on in villages, it was his

21     custom to call them traitors or Ustashas.  He also branded me a traitor.

22     I even heard that in one of the gatherings that he had organised with

23     refugees, a death sentence was issued to me.  Allegedly, a refugee

24     volunteered to carry that sentence out.  I heard that from the late

25     Momic.

Page 10385

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand what you're

 2     saying, but when Sibincic was asking of the sort -- when he was acting of

 3     the sort, was he doing this individually, just because that's his own

 4     personality and he's got this tendency to call everyone a traitor, and

 5     was saying all this to others who were not against what he was saying, or

 6     was he acting in the framework of an organisation, a party, or a group of

 7     individuals?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partially in person, individually,

 9     and partially within a group, within an organisation; that is to say, he

10     gathered refugees around him.  He even had contacts -- I suppose, I'm not

11     100 per cent sure, but the facts indicate that people came from

12     elsewhere, from Serbia, from Sabac, to exert pressure on the local

13     population.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you've just said is

15     interesting.  He was surrounded by a group of refugees, so he's a person,

16     according to what I understand, who set up this group, this organisation.

17     What I wanted to know is this:  Was he the person who acted and set up

18     this organisation on an individual basis or was this ordered from

19     outside, somebody who told him that he needed to do this?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my belief that he did not

21     come up with all of this on his own; rather, that he had instructions

22     from the authorities.  At the time, it was the regime of

23     Slobodan Milosevic.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, according to you, he got

25     his instructions from the regime at that time.  This is what you've just

Page 10386

 1     told us?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's exactly right, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, what does the Serbian

 4     Radical Party have to do in all of this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian Radical Party, under

 6     the circumstances, since after their founding most of their members were

 7     refugees, I see them as an accomplice.  I see the party as an accomplice

 8     in all of these events.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sure that Mr. Seselj will

10     address this again during his cross-examination, I assume.

11             Mr. Ferrara, please proceed.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. FERRARA:

14        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Ferrara.  Let's

16     give this document an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P549.

18             MR. FERRARA:  That's the last question regarding this document,

19     Your Honours.  I forgot it.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop.  We are in open session.

24     We shall have to redact this.

25             MR. FERRARA:  Sorry, I forgot.

Page 10387

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's move into

 2     private session and then you can put your question.  This shall be

 3     redacted.

 4             When you are a Presiding Judge, you need to be on the ball at all

 5     times.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             MR. FERRARA:

23        Q.   Did you have the opportunity --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Excuse me, Mr. Ferrara.  We're now in open

25     session.

Page 10388

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2        Q.   Mr. Ejic, did you at the time discuss with the refugees who

 3     instructed them to go to your village, who instructed them to go just to

 4     Hrtkovci?

 5        A.   Well, I had occasion to talk to some refugees that I didn't know,

 6     and I learned from them that they had received instructions or, rather,

 7     information when they crossed the border that they should take the road

 8     to Sabac and that in Hrtkovci there were numerous vacant homes, and that

 9     there were homes there that could be exchanged.  So who could have told

10     them this at the border crossing?  Either the police or some other

11     officials.

12        Q.   Did they say you if they received any -- this kind of instruction

13     from a particular political party?

14        A.   I'm not aware of that.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what happened after the rally of the SRS on the

16     6th of May, 1992?  Can you tell us the proportion of Serbs and non-Serbs

17     living in Hrtkovci after this period?  Was there a particular change in

18     this proportion?

19        A.   I apologise.  Your question is not entirely clear to me.  What

20     residents do you have in mind?  You mean their ethnicity or what?

21        Q.   The citizens of Hrtkovci, not the refugees.  Did it change the

22     composition, the ethnic composition, because you say at the beginning of

23     your testimony that in Hrtkovci, usually the Croats were the majority,

24     60 per cent or more, if I remember right.  Did this change after the 6th

25     of May, 1992?

Page 10389

 1        A.   Now I understand the question.  Yes, that is true, that after the

 2     rally, the departure and the exchange of homes intensified, the exchange

 3     of homes of Croats and some Hungarians with refugees from Croatia, so

 4     that the current situation is quite different from the situation prior to

 5     this.  Percentage-wise, it would be as follows:

 6             In Hrtkovci, there used to be about 10 or so per cent of Serbs,

 7     including the Romas, and the rest were Croats and Hungarians.  Nowadays,

 8     the number of Serbs or those of Orthodox faith increased, and the number

 9     of Croats is reduced, and to some extent of the Hungarians as well.  In

10     percentages, the picture would be as follows:

11             About 20-some per cent are Hungarians, 10 to 15 per cent are

12     Croats, and the rest are Serbs and the Roma.

13        Q.   Do you know -- do you personally know any family who are -- that

14     was forced to leave Hrtkovci?  Or not "family"; of course, single

15     persons.

16        A.   Well, yes.

17        Q.   I want to show you a long list of names.

18             If, Mr. Registrar, can you put on the screen the document

19     number 2859.  That is the annex 11 to the third amended indictment,

20     coming from the annex to the expert report, the Ewa Tabeau expert report,

21     and annex A, the list of persons who left Hrtkovci.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Ferrara, could we have the page number,

23     please.

24             MR. FERRARA:  The ERN number is -- page 37 out of 66.

25        Q.   Please, you can read this long list of names, and with the pen

Page 10390

 1     that you have there, if you can circle the names of people that you know

 2     were forced to leave Hrtkovci in that period of time.  There should be a

 3     pen there.  The usher will instruct you.  Circle or line, what is easier.

 4        A.   Can we go on?

 5             MR. FERRARA:  Can we go to the other page?  It's a list of 28

 6     pages, so it will take time.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, if he needs to

 8     leaf through these 28 pages, he will come up with hundreds of names.  He

 9     won't be able to do this.  How many names will he target?

10             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, he target about 60 or 70 names during

11     the proofing.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let him target these names,

13     then.

14             MR. FERRARA:  Maybe more.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further on, please.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar has just told me

17     that he had better circle these names.  Draw a circle.

18             MR. FERRARA:

19        Q.   Tell us when you mark somebody.

20        A.   Number 69 and 70, [marks].  [Marks] Number 209.  The next number

21     I circled is number 209, "Fumic, Marko."

22        Q.   Do you know any other members of the Fumic family?

23        A.   Yes, I know his brother, Milan, and I know their wives.  I know

24     the Fumic family.

25        Q.   Where were they force to do leave to?

Page 10391

 1        A.   Nowadays they live in Podravska Slatina.

 2        Q.   But at the time, were they forced to leave, in 1992?  We want to

 3     know if they were forced to leave in 1992, not now if they live in

 4     Hrtkovci.  Maybe now some of them returned back.  I don't know, of

 5     course.

 6        A.   The last name I circled, "Marko Fumic," he and his family were

 7     forced to exchange properties.  On one occasion, a group that I didn't

 8     know came to see him in order to kill him, to eliminate him.  That was a

 9     group from the Slavonija region, at the time when Serbian Krajina was in

10     existence, or immediately prior to that; and that was the reason why

11     Marko Fumic had to leave, had to exchange the property.

12             And later on, shortly thereafter, his brother did something

13     similar.  Milan didn't have similar problems, that is to say, did not

14     have threats, except for this atmosphere of fear and the need to follow

15     his brother, because that's what their mother advised them to do, too.

16        Q.   So all these Fumic -- all these members of the Fumic family that

17     is from the list, number 205, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, were forced to leave?

18        A.   I only mentioned Marko Fumic and his family.  As for the

19     atmosphere of fear, that was a sort of a coercion against his brother.

20     Since Milan Fumic at that time had refugees staying in his house whom he

21     supported.  And despite of that, he left.

22        Q.   So could you circle also "Fumic, Milan," or not?  "Fumic, Milan,"

23     is number 210.

24        A.   I could circle "Milan Fumic" in the sense that he was an official

25     member of the local commune board.  He told me that many times.  We see

Page 10392

 1     each other nowadays frequently.  He comes to Hrtkovci and I go to see

 2     him.  And he told me at the meetings of the local commune at the time,

 3     Rade Cakmak, who became a member of the board, and Fumic and some other

 4     people were part of the previous membership when there were 15 of them;

 5     so Cakmak would always threaten him and would always make comments to the

 6     effect that he couldn't sit next to an Ustasha at a meeting, referring to

 7     Milan Fumic as an Ustasha.  This is what caused Milan Fumic to be afraid

 8     and to decide to follow his brother.

 9        Q.   Don't hurry in reading the names.  You're here for this reason.

10     I understand it's a boring task, but ...

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Prosecutor, I just want to be sure I

12     understand fully the purpose why we're going through this list.  I

13     suppose that at some point we will have the author of the list produced

14     as an expert witness in this court, and at that point she can testify to

15     the accuracy of the list.

16             So what is it now that you want to elicit from this witness?

17             MR. FERRARA:  That the witness personally witnessed -- sorry, the

18     people who were forced to leave.  The expert, of course, got this data

19     after, but he was there when these people were forced to leave and he can

20     tell us something about these people.  The expert, I think, cannot say.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So the purpose of confronting this witness with

22     the list is for this witness to explain to us the reasons why these

23     people left?

24             MR. FERRARA:  The people that he knew among these ones.  Of

25     course, he didn't know all these 800 people, I think.

Page 10393

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  Thanks.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, to gain time,

 3     since there is a great number of pages, wouldn't it be better --

 4             MR. FERRARA:  If the Chamber agrees --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- for him to read the list

 6     this afternoon?

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Absolutely.  I will continue tomorrow this part of

 8     the examination-in-chief.  So let's move to another topic for the last 15

 9     minutes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  I'd like

11     to put a question to my fellow Judges.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we are going to finish

14     in ten minutes' time.  You'll take the document with you, and this could

15     entertain you this afternoon.  You can draw circles around the names you

16     know and bring this document back tomorrow morning.  After having looked

17     at all these pages and names, you will be able to tell us which people

18     left.  Otherwise, we're going to spend a lot of time on this.  So you

19     shall take the documents away with you and draw your circles in the

20     course of the afternoon or this evening, and bring the document back

21     tomorrow morning.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Ferrara.

23             MR. FERRARA:

24        Q.   Mr. Ejic, was -- you say -- I think you already said it.  Was the

25     local and international press interested in what was happening in

Page 10394

 1     Hrtkovci?

 2        A.   Yes, they were interested.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  We are in closed session?

 4        Q.   Were you interviewed at the time by some journalist?

 5        A.   Yes, I was, by many journalists, local ones and foreign ones.  I

 6     can't remember all of their names, but some of the foreign media

 7     organisations I remember.  I gave a statement to Zidovec [phoen] at

 8     "Zeitung."  I gave statements to some Slovenian newspapers, to Globus, to

 9     Croatian papers.  I also held a press conference in Belgrade, where I

10     gave a statement both for local and foreign journalists.  And then there

11     were also cases where press conferences were held in Hrtkovci and where I

12     gave statements for the press.  I and many other people did.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I suppose that the

14     witness said that to the OTP when they interviewed him first, and the OTP

15     was duty-bound to obtain the text of all of these interviews that the

16     witness had given to journalists, and the OTP should have disclosed this.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you told the

18     investigators that you gave interviews, and did you give a list of all

19     these interviews?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I mentioned that I

21     gave statements.  Now, as to whether I actually gave them the names of

22     media organisations --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was the investigator interested

24     in this?  Did he just listen to you and move on or did he ask you on what

25     date such-and-such an article had been published?  Did you just say this

Page 10395

 1     and then he moved on to something else?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only mentioned it.  They didn't

 3     ask me for details.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At what time did you give these

 6     interviews?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave interviews after the rally.

 8     I think that I gave before as well, but most interviews I gave after the

 9     rally and after the exchanges stepped up.

10             MR. FERRARA:

11        Q.   I want to show you one of these interviews.  This is 65 ter

12     number 1544, disclosed to the accused on 14 September 2007, and received

13     number 71.

14             Can we have it on the screen?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, there are at least

16     one of these that has been disclosed to you, this one.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is, but I think that all of

18     them should have been disclosed, because this is not the text of an

19     interview.  This is a text of the journalist who wrote about the Hrtkovci

20     affair.  This is not the text of an interview.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's true.  This is an

22     article which was written --

23             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, the interview is inside the article,

24     of course.  It's a part of the article is the interview with the witness.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll have a look

Page 10396

 1     at this.  Please proceed.

 2             We shall, in any event, come across the name of the school

 3     teacher I mentioned; Zelica Tkalac.

 4             MR. FERRARA:

 5        Q.   Mr. Ejic, do you remember this interview with this journalist of

 6     the "St. Petersburg Times," I think is the newspaper?

 7        A.   I remember giving one such interview.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again I have to observe that

 9     this is not an interview.  There is one single sentence that the author

10     quotes and that was allegedly uttered by this witness, one single

11     sentence on page 4.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, if we are talking about

13     something specifically journalistic, this is not an interview, per se,

14     this is a press article.  Even if one sentence is quoted, this is a press

15     article.

16             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We agree.  We agree so much,

18     sir, that we need to stop now because it is a quarter past 1.00.

19             The Registrar will give me the time calculation.

20             The instructions for the witness is to draw the circle through

21     the names he knows and not to contact or speak to anyone.

22             And we shall resume our hearing tomorrow morning.  A slight

23     change, however.  Instead of starting at 8.30, we shall start at 9.00,

24     because I am not sitting in any case in the afternoon, so we can start at

25     9.00 tomorrow morning.  The hearing would start at 9.00 for tomorrow

Page 10397

 1     morning, therefore, and will run on until a quarter to 2.00.

 2             We shall proceed in the same manner on Thursday.

 3             I wish you all a very pleasant afternoon.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

 6                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.