Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10694

 1                           Wednesday, 15 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 7     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation] ... [Interpretation]

 9     Mr. Mussemeyer, as well as and all the people assisting the OTP.  I would

10     also like to greet Mr. Seselj and all the people present in helping us.

11                           [Technical difficulties]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will check.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a problem with the

14     headphones.  Sometimes I hear the interpretation into Serbian, sometimes

15     into English.  There's seems to be a mix-up with the channels.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we'll check.

17             Mr. Seselj, can you hear the translation properly?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do now.  Yes, I do.  Well,

19     actually, I heard it a little while ago too, but then the Serbian would

20     stop and then I would hear English, as if somebody was switching

21     channels.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It should be working now.  We

23     shall resume cross-examination.  I was saying that Mr. Seselj should

24     still have an hour and a half.  We shall bring the witness in the

25     courtroom.  I shall ask the usher to go and fetch him.

Page 10695

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  I hope

 3     you had a nice evening.  As you know, your cross-examination is going to

 4     resume now.  Questions will be put to you by Mr. Seselj.

 5             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 6                           WITNESS:  FRANJA BARICEVIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:  [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Baricevic, yesterday you spoke about a bus

10     full of White Eagles who allegedly arrived before the rally in Hrtkovci

11     from Sabac.  And then you said that they had rifles, is that so?  Which

12     means automatic rifles, that's what it usually means.  Is that what you

13     meant?  And you said that they wore all kinds of clothes and footwear, is

14     that so?  That means that nobody had a full uniform, a part of this

15     uniform or part of that uniform, did I understand you correctly?

16        A.   I said that a bus full of people, armed people had arrived, and

17     parked in Savska Street, and that they had gone to the place where the

18     rally was to be held, and that they were not dressed like military

19     personnel, but in all kinds of clothes.  And that they had automatic

20     rifles.

21        Q.   Well, this is what I'm interested in, this diversity of their

22     clothes.  Did they wear different kinds of military clothing or civilian

23     clothes?  Did they wear different kinds of military uniforms?

24        A.   Well, the only difference was, in fact, in the boots they wore.

25        Q.   Did they all have the same uniforms but different boots?

Page 10696

 1        A.   Yes, some had boots, some had shoes.

 2        Q.   Was that the only difference?

 3        A.   The only difference.

 4        Q.   Well, you can see that in any barracks; some soldiers wear boots,

 5     some wear shoes.  What is so strange about it then?  What was the

 6     diversity in uniforms?

 7        A.   Well, I answered you.  I said that some had boots, others had

 8     shoes, but I just compared them with the regular army.  I said that

 9     everybody has the same kinds of clothes and footwear.

10        Q.   Fine.  Let's leave the boots and shoes aside.  You said that they

11     had different kinds of uniforms, let's now focus on that.  Were those

12     camouflage uniforms?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   What kinds of uniforms there?

15        A.   Black uniforms.  That's what I said.

16        Q.   All of them wore black uniforms?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And when was there ever a formation in Serbia wearing black

19     uniforms?  How come that nobody ever noticed that, ever?

20        A.   On that day, they came there dressed in the kind of clothes that

21     I just described.

22        Q.   And what party in Serbia set up the White Eagles?

23        A.   Well, I don't know what party founded the White Eagles, but

24     that's how those people were dressed.

25        Q.   And they said that they were White Eagles and Seselj's security;

Page 10697

 1     is that so?

 2        A.   That's what I said.

 3        Q.   And did they attend the rally carrying those automatic rifles?

 4        A.   Yes.  They were mingling with the people.

 5        Q.   Well, is there a single rally in Serbia that was attended by 50

 6     people with automatic rifles?  Did this happen at all anywhere, ever?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know if there were any other rallies elsewhere, but

 8     I didn't say there were 50 of them.  I just said that there was this bus

 9     that came.

10        Q.   Well, usually you can fit about 50 people on the bus.  Maybe the

11     bus was half full, maybe there were just 30 people there, but you would

12     not use a bus to bring just five or six people there, would you?  Why

13     would there be a bus if there wasn't a larger number of them?  Those

14     people who suggested to you that you should make this kind of statement

15     did not really proof you all that well, they did not really teach you

16     what to say, Mr. Baricevic, did they?

17        A.   I cannot tell you the number but --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] One moment, witness.  The

19     Prosecutor is on his feet, but I know what he is going to -- I know what

20     he's about to say.

21             What do you want to say, Mr. Mussemeyer?

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I want to say that Mr. Seselj should refrain

23     from these allegations that we are putting something in the witness

24     mouth.  He knows exactly that we proofed the witness, that we go through

25     his former statement, that we constantly tell him that he has to tell the

Page 10698

 1     truth, and it is nothing from the side of the Prosecution to influence

 2     the witness, and Mr. Seselj knows this and he should refrain from this.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard Mr. Seselj

 4     hint at the fact that somebody implied that you should say that.  Did you

 5     say it or did somebody imply that you should say that?  You understand my

 6     question?  Let me repeat.  A few moments ago you talked about those men

 7     who were armed, who were dressed in black, who were wearing shoes or

 8     boots and who attended Mr. Seselj's speech, which Mr. Seselj challenges.

 9     At one point he says that it was hinted that you should say that, and the

10     Prosecutor has just got on his feet to say that they never hinted at

11     anything.  So my question is, did you say that or did somebody suggest

12     that you should say that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

14     interpretation.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's check.  Let me repeat.

16     Can you hear the translation?  I'll start from the beginning.  You said

17     that there were 30 or 50 people that were armed, dressed in black,

18     wearing boots or shoes.  Those people were present when Mr. Seselj

19     delivered his speech, which Mr. Seselj challenges.  And he said so.  At

20     one point, Mr. Seselj says that what you are saying is something that has

21     been suggested to you.  The Prosecutor got on his feet to say that they

22     have never suggested anything whatsoever.

23             This is my question:  When you say this, does this come from you

24     or did somebody ask you to say this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that

Page 10699

 1     the bus had been parked in the Savska Street somewhere around number 7

 2     and my house is at number 19, so that was in my street.  I saw this bus

 3     there.  Nobody told me to provide this answer.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

 5             MR. SESELJ:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] And this time I did not accuse the Prosecution

 7     at all, and Mr. Mussemeyer, I think, responds because of his bad

 8     conscience, not because I levelled any accusations.  But I would like to

 9     stress that we had some witnesses, Croats, in this trial and in some

10     other trials, and it turned out that the Croatian intelligence service

11     had prepped them before they came here to testify.  There is documentary

12     evidence to that effect.  I brought some documents here to show that.  So

13     my question is completely regular.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, yesterday Mr. Seselj

15     put the question to you, but I shall put the question to you now.  Did

16     the Croatian intelligence services try to contact you with a view to

17     making statements before this Tribunal, or did you never meet the

18     Croatian intelligence services?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that

20     I received a visit and they only asked me about these events that I was

21     involved in.  No record was made and nobody tried to talk me into

22     anything when I gave the statement.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] I remember you saying that

24     yesterday.  But these two people who came, I believe there were two, why

25     did they come?  Was it to say hello to you and everything is all fine and

Page 10700

 1     well?  Why did they come and see you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked me if I was able to find

 3     my way around there and they asked me how I was able to get from Hrtkovci

 4     to Jaksic.  It was just a very brief conversation with them.  They asked

 5     me more questions about my private life and how I intend to go on to fix

 6     the house, to do some farm work, what I should do to improve my situation

 7     as soon as possible.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These two people who came, did

 9     they say that they worked for the Croatian Ministry of the Interior, did

10     they show you an ID card?  What did they actually tell you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They told me that they were from

12     the military prosecutor's office in Osijek.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From the military prosecutor's

14     office in Osijek, that's what they told you.  And the military Prosecutor

15     from Osijek is in charge of rebuilding your house?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  They asked me about the

17     situation, and then we moved on and we had a private conversation.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, please

19     proceed.

20             MR. SESELJ:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] How far is it from Slavonska Pozega to Osijek in

22     kilometres?

23        A.   90.

24        Q.   Not more than that?

25        A.   No.

Page 10701

 1        Q.   And they went all the way from Osijek to Slavonska Pozega to talk

 2     to you about your trip from Hrtkovci to Slavonska Pozega and what is the

 3     situation with the farm work?

 4        A.   Well, we talked about farm work later, subsequently.

 5        Q.   At any rate, you travelled to Croatia via Hungary because that

 6     was the only way to do it.  You went from Hrtkovci to Novi Sad to

 7     Subotica and then to Hungary; is that so?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what did they ask you about, what could be of any interest to

10     any military organs or military intelligence organs?  Nothing.

11        A.   I told you what they asked me.

12        Q.   You know Slavko Kulundzic, do you?

13        A.   From Ruma?

14        Q.   From Ruma.  He was in the state security?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You've known him for years?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How long?  Since when?

19        A.   In 1992 or rather, well, maybe some five years.

20        Q.   Have you known him from before?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And you were his informant in Hrtkovci, were you not?

23        A.   Me?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   I was nobody's informant.

Page 10702

 1        Q.   Well, he says that you were.  Slavko Kulundzic said that when he

 2     spoke to my expert team there, to assist my Defence, Nebojsa Sarevic and

 3     Jelena Bozetalijin [phoen].  And let me read what he had to say about

 4     you, and for the Prosecution that's at page 384 of my book.  I've

 5     provided the book quite some time ago.  He talked about some specific

 6     things that we will go back to but my associates say this:  So you

 7     cooperated, the intelligence state security service cooperated with

 8     them --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] One moment.  The Prosecutor is

10     raising an objection.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Seselj

12     is quoting from statements which we don't know, he should get used to

13     deliver these statements to the Prosecution in advance and not surprise

14     everybody in the courtroom.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, from what I

16     understood, but I stand to be corrected, I believe that the statement by

17     this person named Slavko Kulundzic is part of a book which you published.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution

19     knows about this book.  It's on the basis of this book that they

20     announced a criminal complaint against me and against my associates and

21     they are going to charge us with contempt of court, and now they don't

22     know about it.  15 or 20 days ago through the members of the registry, I

23     handed it over to the OTP myself.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Give us the title of the book.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that if I give you the

Page 10703

 1     title, you are going to delete it or you are going to move into closed

 2     session.  You know what heading it is, (redacted), and you know

 3     what follows.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

 6     ... with pleasure utter the entire title, but I don't want us to move

 7     into closed session.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] This Slavko Kulundzic, what

 9     did he tell you that is contained in the book?  Since the Prosecutor has

10     a book, he can check straightaway.

11             Mr. Mussemeyer, do you have this book and it's contained in the

12     book?

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Ms. Dahl informed me that we have this book.

14     It's 1200 pages long.  It's all in B/C/S and nobody in the Prosecution is

15     able to translate this within 14 days.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The book hasn't been

17     translated.  Mr. Seselj, do not read out the entire book, just tell us

18     what this man Slavko Kulundzic has said.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the book has not

20     been translated, how could they charge me with contempt of court?  That

21     is to say, that that someone told them about the book, and on the basis

22     of that, they filed their complaint.  This book was published more than a

23     year ago, and since they prepared the complaint, after that they must

24     have read the book.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl.

Page 10704

 1             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, there have been select translations of

 2     particular witness statements, but I don't believe that it is fair play

 3     to a surprise the Prosecution with a selection from the 1200-page book.

 4     That is out of order.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mrs. Dahl.  If I

 6     understand correctly, Mr. Seselj, based on this book, you have filed a

 7     motion, so you must have selected those pages you were interested in.  It

 8     might have been a better idea to read the entire book since this book is

 9     not part of the trial and Mr. Seselj can say that someone has said such

10     and such and the witness will answer by saying, I challenge this or I

11     don't.  Mrs. Dahl.

12             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I think we need to discuss the book in

13     private session to give me a fair chance to respond to what Mr. Seselj is

14     saying and the observations that you have made.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, we shall move

16     into private session.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10705

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. SESELJ:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Baricevic, Slavko Kulundzic is very

19     explicit and he claims that for several years you collaborated with the

20     state security service and that he was your contact, and that you

21     regularly informed him about the situation in the village, what was going

22     on, what people were saying and everything else.  That is a claim made by

23     Slavko Kulundzic.

24        A.   Your Honour, yesterday I stated that I and Dobrosav Markovic went

25     to Ruma to the MUP to ask for help for the village, to have

Page 10706

 1     Slavko Kulundzic help us.  Had I been his informant, he would have saved

 2     me and Dobrosav at least.  Dobrosav and I both had to move out of the

 3     village.  That is not true.

 4        Q.   In relation to your trip to Ruma, he does confirm that you came,

 5     but that you came on private business to the SUP and then you dropped in

 6     to see him, as you did before.  You chatted with him, had a cup of coffee

 7     and you did not complain about anything specific.  You didn't say that

 8     you had any problems and you didn't ask him for any help.  You came to

 9     take care of some business at the SUP, perhaps you were getting a

10     passport or something like that, as people do at the SUP, and then you

11     stopped to see him, as if he was an old friend basically.  That is his

12     version.  I don't know him and I saw you for the first time yesterday, so

13     I'm comparing your assertions to Slavko Kulundzic's assertions.

14             Judges, in relation to this, I would have a separate statement

15     signed and verified by Slavko Kulundzic had all my contacts not been

16     severed with my associates; that is why I'm compelled to use the book.  I

17     have some other documents from the book that, otherwise, my associates

18     would have sent me as original documents.  Since I have no communications

19     with them, I can only use the book.

20             Isn't that right, Mr. Baricevic?

21        A.   That is not right.

22        Q.   Well, that is the assertion he makes.

23        A.   I made my statement in 1992, before your book was written, and I

24     did not know that Slavko would make that kind of statement.  I gave the

25     kind of statement as I did.

Page 10707

 1        Q.   And who did you give this statement to in 1992?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Just shortly for the record, Mr. Seselj has the

 4     possibility to contact his associates.  He is only not using it.  He has

 5     repeated this several times and it should be corrected for the record.

 6     Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now, please, sir,

 8     answer the question.  Mr. Seselj put to you a question and your answer,

 9     again was I was not an informant for this person.

10             So now proceed, Mr. Seselj.

11             MR. SESELJ:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Slavko Kulundzic claims here, because he,

13     himself, attended the rally, and he says that there were lots of

14     policemen at the rally.  He claims that no bus had come from Sabac with

15     the White Eagles and he says that there were no White Eagles in black

16     uniforms there at all.  He also claims that no one attended the rally

17     with weapons.  Now, what do you say to that?

18        A.   What I say is that that is not true.  It is not true.  It's not

19     true that I was an informant and this is not true either.  I can say

20     exactly where the bus had been parked and everything else.

21        Q.   We are not interested in where the bus was parked, we are

22     interested in whether a group of White Eagles arrived in black uniforms

23     to provide security for me or not.  That's what I'm interested in.  Who

24     knows who had parked some bus there even a week before?  I'm not

25     interested in that.  However, as for a bus from Sabac with a group of

Page 10708

 1     White Eagles in black uniforms, Slavko Kulundzic said that no one like

 2     that arrived, and he says if that had been the case, the police would

 3     have taken appropriate measures.  It is impossible for that kind of thing

 4     to happen unobserved.

 5        A.   The bus was in Savska Street, in front of number 7.  These people

 6     got out of the bus, the ones that I've been talking about all of the

 7     time.

 8        Q.   Slavko Kulundzic says further on that I did not read out any list

 9     at that rally.  What do you say that to?

10        A.   Slavko Kulundzic can claim whatever he wants.

11        Q.   Slavko Kulundzic informed his superiors ex officio about

12     developments at the rally, not then and not now did he hear me reading

13     out any list.  Do you think that Slavko Kulundzic is lying for some

14     reason?

15        A.   Well, why then did he say to me to Ruma [as interpreted], whoever

16     has to go should go.

17        Q.   Slavko Kulundzic never said that to you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Let's move to private session

19     for a few moments, Mr. Registrar, please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session now, Your Honour

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10709











11 Page 10709 redacted. Private session.















Page 10710

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

18             MR. SESELJ:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Slavko Kulundzic claims that you did not

20     complain to him at all.  He also says that you did not announce that you

21     would be leaving Hrtkovci.  He believes that there was no reason for

22     that, you never mentioned any pressures exerted against you or your

23     family to him.  He says that you never said that you had been mistreated.

24     He also says that after so many years of collaboration, you had built a

25     personal, friendly relationship and that once you even fixed the water

Page 10711

 1     pipes in his house.  Is that true?

 2        A.   Your Honour, what Slavko says, that I did not ask for help, that

 3     is not true.  And that I went to fix one water pipe for him, well, that

 4     is true.

 5        Q.   He says that he was very satisfied with your cooperation, and

 6     that on the basis of that, sometimes he would help you when something was

 7     needed.  He did not specify what that something was, truth to tell.  Is

 8     that true?

 9        A.   He did not give me any help.

10        Q.   All right.  That's what he says.  All right.

11             Let us not dwell on this any longer, what it is that

12     Slavko Kulundzic says, because his statement is very, very interesting

13     and I hope that he will show up here as a Defence witness, if there is a

14     Defence case at all.

15             You claimed that at the rally I read out a list.  Is there a

16     single person in Serbia who saw me reading anything at a public rally?

17     Am I not well known throughout Serbia as a politician who speaks

18     directly, who speaks off the cuff, except in the assembly when I'm

19     criticizing a particular bill and when I have to read something out.  Did

20     you see that on television?

21        A.   People heard who it was that had to move out, and now whether

22     that was read out or whether it was just uttered, it came from your

23     mouth.

24        Q.   People heard that others had already left Hrtkovci and registered

25     with the ZNG, Tudjman's paramilitary units.  This is what Zilic said.

Page 10712

 1     After that no names were read out.  In my speech, there were no names of

 2     local persons.  Isn't that right?

 3        A.   No, that's not right.

 4        Q.   And did Aleksa Ejic found the Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci?

 5        A.   We said he did not, did we not?

 6        Q.   Well, you said that he did but I'm trying now to check, to see

 7     whether you changed your mind over night because you said he had.  That's

 8     what is contained in your statement and that's what you confirmed

 9     yesterday, but I can see now that you managed to memorize the fact that

10     he had not, so I just wanted to do a quick spot-check here.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We have again this story about the party

12     membership where I yesterday was quoting our proofing notes and where the

13     witness has corrected this.  Mr. Seselj is coming back again to this

14     issue which has already been discussed yesterday.  I just wanted to let

15     this know.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we did know that.

17             Continue, Mr. Seselj.

18             MR. SESELJ:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] You said that the list of people to be expelled

20     was given to me by Ostoja Sibincic and other members of the Serbian

21     Radical Party, and that you know that for a fact.  Now I want to know,

22     how is it that you know that for a fact?

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry, I don't want to object all the time, but

24     Mr. Seselj should be correct.  The witness did not -- I lost it now.  The

25     witness did not say that Ostoja Sibincic was giving the list.  He said he

Page 10713

 1     assumes that Ostoja Sibincic contacted Mr. Seselj and gave him a list.

 2     It was not that clear like Mr. Seselj did this in his last question.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Seselj, the witness

 4     did not say that Mr. Sibincic had given you a list.  He said that he

 5     believed that.  It's an assumption, he is not sure.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not correct.  I jotted down

 7     here that the witness said he knew that for a fact, that the list had

 8     been provided to me by Ostoja Sibincic and other members.  That's what

 9     the witness said here.  Not that he thinks.  He said he knew that for

10     fact.  Please refer to the transcript.  He said that before he stated

11     that he did not see me take a list from the pocket.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let's shed some

13     light on this immediately.  Witness, did you think so, were you sure, did

14     you see him give something?  Tell us exactly what you said earlier.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I think that the

16     leaders, headed by Ostoja Sibincic, had provided a list of people who

17     were to move out of Hrtkovci.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Just to assist all of us, I think I found the

19     quote from the transcript of yesterday.  The Presiding Judge was -- and

20     it's on page 10623, line 1.  Presiding Judge is asking:  "So you are

21     telling the truth.  This mean that before delivering his speech,

22     Mr. Seselj spoke with the leaders and the leaders gave him the list."

23     Then there is additional text here but I think is, at the moment, not

24     important but the witness's direct answer to this is:  "I'd like to say

25     something to you.  Ostoja Sibincic was Seselj's right-hand man.  Most

Page 10714

 1     probably he contacted him every day, that is, in terms of what the

 2     situation in the village was like."

 3             So the witness made it very clear.  He said "most probably," that

 4     means he did not know for sure.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mussemeyer had to

 6     read the parts that he claims are irrelevant because this is where we can

 7     see the first answer of the witness to your question, Mr. President, and

 8     the rest follows after that.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, what was not

10     essential for you, I don't have the transcript here, but I trust you,

11     tell me what is after?

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I cannot summarize it because I now see it for

13     the first time, I was using the word search or the WordWheel search.  I

14     read the sentence where you finished:  "... and leaders gave him the

15     list."  Now I can read the following text:  "Then he, who knows

16     absolutely no one from this village, this is the first time that he set

17     foot in this village just out of -- from memory.  He was able to give

18     five or ten -- between five or ten names which means that he learned five

19     or ten names by" --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when

21     reading.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I apologise.  "By," and here is written "rote,"

23     so that he could actually speak them out in his speech, because in the

24     speech that I have, he mentioned a great number of people, but people who

25     had nothing to do with the village.  For example, he mentioned members of

Page 10715

 1     the Communist League, Vuk Draskovic, Milan Komenic, Dragoljub Misiljevic

 2     [phoen], Zoran Djindjic, Kosta Cavoski, Nikola Milosevic.  So he

 3     mentioned a great number of names, so he is very good at quoting names of

 4     people that he knows for political reasons, of course, but he didn't know

 5     the names of the villagers in the first place.  That means that if you

 6     are telling the truth, he learned by rote five to ten names and then

 7     delivered them in a speech.  Is this what happened?"

 8             This was the question of the Presiding Judge and the answer of

 9     the witness I already read.  If you want to, I can repeat it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11     continues] ... repeat it, thank you.  Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

12             MR. SESELJ:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Fair enough.  So how do you know that

14     Ostoja Sibincic was my right-hand man, and that he was in daily contact

15     with me?

16        A.   Ostoja Sibincic acted in such a manner in the village.  He acted

17     like he was the boss.  He was giving out the addresses of people who

18     should --

19        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you.  I'm asking you how do you know

20     that he was my right-hand man, and that he was in daily contact with me?

21     That's what I'm interested in.  I don't want to know what he was doing.

22        A.   That's the assumption.  That's an assumption that one makes about

23     a man of this kind.  Nobody would be surprised to hear anything about

24     him.

25        Q.   Do you know who Zvonko Paulic is?

Page 10716

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So who is?

 3        A.   He is my nephew.

 4        Q.   He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

 5     Croatia in Zagreb; is that right?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Where does he work then?

 8        A.   He works in Koncar.

 9        Q.   But did he work in the Ministry of the Interior at one point?

10        A.   In Kamenica.

11        Q.   No.  He completed the high school of the interior affairs in

12     Kamenica and then he went to Croatia and worked in the Croatian MUP.

13        A.   No, he did not work there.  He found a job in the Koncar

14     factory.

15        Q.   So he never worked in MUP?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Are you sure?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Well, ha, ha, fine.  You said that when you came to Jaksic that

20     that is where you got this house that you swapped?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You said that this house had been torched, the house that you

23     received in the swap, is that so?

24        A.   The house was torched and so was the barn.

25        Q.   How was it torched, this house?

Page 10717

 1        A.   A part of the roof was burned down on the house, from the front,

 2     and there were no windows on the front because a Sagger missile had

 3     impacted there and the roof on the barn was also burned down.

 4        Q.   So the house was not burned down, it was just damaged?

 5        A.   Well, the house was inhabitable.

 6        Q.   The house was inhabitable because Serbs were living there and

 7     they were exposed to constant abuse and were forced to move to Serbia; is

 8     that not so?

 9        A.   I don't know who forced them to move out, but what I do know is

10     what the house was like.

11        Q.   Well, you will find out who made them leave soon enough.  That

12     was the house that belonged to Desanka Milosavljevic, is that right, and

13     her husband Stjepanovic?

14        A.   Her husband Branko.

15        Q.   Her husband Branko Stjepanovic and Desanka Milosavljevic.  They

16     were married but they had different surnames; is that right?  Is that

17     right?

18        A.   Branko Milosavljevic, yes, that's right.

19        Q.   And since they were Serbs -- was there any fighting ever in

20     Slavonska Pozega?

21        A.   Well, since I arrived there or before my time?

22        Q.   Well, before your time, from 1990 onwards, was there any fighting

23     there, any combat activities?

24        A.   Well, I don't know that, but what I do know is that a couple of

25     shells landed since I came.

Page 10718

 1        Q.   Well, the shells or bombs landed in Serb yards and Serb houses to

 2     make them move out as soon as possible.  Do you know that 28 Serb

 3     villages around Slavonska Pozega were forcibly evicted by the Croatian

 4     military?

 5        A.   I do know that people moved out and I do know that my house, the

 6     house that I received in the swap was uninhabitable.

 7        Q.   First of all, your house was habitable, and as soon as you did

 8     the swap, the Croatian authorities fixed the house free of charge.

 9        A.   No, that's not so.

10        Q.   Yes, it is.

11        A.   I said yesterday that they gave me a small loan.  I had to

12     provide two guarantors to put the roof on the house.  You can check that.

13        Q.   And the methodology was as follows:  Since nobody harassed you in

14     Hrtkovci, you had your friends in Slavonska Pozega, you went there, and

15     there was this large scale campaign of harassment against Serbs there,

16     you picked a house that you liked and then an action was launched against

17     this house.  And as Desanka Milosavljevic stated to my associates, I

18     think that her husband died in the meantime, she says that their house

19     was targeted seven or eight times, that the barn was set on fire.  They

20     set a fire in several places and then one is supposed to put the fire out

21     and the phone lines were cut off.  This was an organised campaign to

22     force the Serbs to move out as soon as possible.  And after that

23     happened, two or three days later, you came to their house, and you spoke

24     to them about the swap.  Desanka Milosavljevic asked you, Well, why are

25     you leaving Hrtkovci, and you said that you were being harassed over the

Page 10719

 1     phone; is that right?  Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know how I could fancy a house that was burned down

 3     and to get that kind of house in exchange for two houses, one a new house

 4     and the other one slightly older.  What kind of a person would I have to

 5     be if I were to accept that?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 7     continues] ... Mr. Seselj made an investigation.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  -- note we could not finish the interpretation

 9     because of overlapping speakers.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11     continues] ... say that you came see them.  This is important, are they

12     lying or are you lying?  This is an essential element.  If they are

13     saying that you came and if you say, I never came, it means that either

14     they are lying or you are lying.  One has to be lying.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that

16     Mr. Spasojevic came to see me and that he picked a house for Branko.  And

17     then two days later, Branko's daughter came into my house in a Lada car.

18     She brought her son with her.  There were Banja Luka plates on the Lada

19     car and two armed civilians accompanying her.  I was then given an

20     address and I went to Pozega.  And when I saw that, I realised that I had

21     to take what was an offer because if I refused to take it, I would be

22     destitute.  I would have nothing.  And that's when I signed this

23     contract.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you recognise that did you

25     go there, you saw and you had to take up the offer because that was all

Page 10720

 1     that was on offer for you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She came to see me first.  She

 3     moved into my house first, so I didn't have a house here and I didn't

 4     have a house there.  If I refused to take the house there, then I would

 5     have nothing.

 6             MR. SESELJ:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] You fabricated all this.  The

 8     Stjepanovic-Milosavljevic family did not see the house in Hrtkovci when

 9     they signed the contract in Slavonska Pozega.  They didn't know where

10     they were going.

11        A.   No, that's not so.

12        Q.   Do you know who Ilija Sutalo is?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Ilija Sutalo was the key person behind the campaign to persecute

15     Serbs in Pozega; is that so?

16        A.   I don't know that.

17        Q.   You don't know that.  Well, Mrs. Desanka Milosavljevic does know

18     that.  She knows that Ilija Sutalo, as a member of Paraga's formation,

19     the Croatian armed forces of the Croatian party of rights, would that be

20     Paraga's formations?

21        A.   I don't know that.  I was not into politics there; I'm not into

22     politics here either.

23        Q.   And at the head of Paraga's formations, Ilija Sutalo organised

24     the tax on Serb houses in order to force the Serbs to leave

25     Slavonska Pozega and the villages around it; is that right?  That's what

Page 10721

 1     Desanka Milosavljevic says; is that true?  You don't know.

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   And when you came to Jaksic, and after you got three times as

 4     much property as you left in Hrtkovci --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We couldn't hear the rest

 6     of the answer -- the rest of the question.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Speak slowly, please, because

 8     the interpreters are having a difficult time.  Please proceed,

 9     Mr. Witness.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came to Pozega, I found a

11     job in the mill, in the silo as a seasonal worker from the time when the

12     wheat came in, the wheat harvest, to the time when the corn harvest

13     ended.  And when my contract expired, I was jobless.  Ilija Sutalo had a

14     small factory producing coils for immersion heaters and that's where I

15     found a job.  I worked there every day, eight hours a day.  That was the

16     morning shift, and that's the sum total of what I know about Ilija.

17             He is my best man.  He stood by me in church when I got married,

18     and I'm really thankful to him for that because he made it possible for

19     my children to receive the sacraments in Croatia.

20        Q.   Okay.  So now you have provided me with important information,

21     Mr. Baricevic.  You got married in church quite late in life and that's

22     where you had your children baptized; is that so?  Well, relatively late

23     in life.

24        A.   I had my children baptized in their proper time, that was done

25     with the help of my wife's parents.  And I told you yesterday that I had

Page 10722

 1     to be a member of the League of Communists in order to keep my job and

 2     those who went to church couldn't get a job, couldn't keep a job.

 3        Q.   Well, I agree with you there.  But you said that in 1980, when

 4     Tito died, you returned your membership card and it took you 20 years to

 5     get married in church once you stopped being a member of the League of

 6     Communists, well, you could go to church as much as you like.

 7        A.   That's not how it is.

 8        Q.   Why isn't it the way it is?

 9        A.   Well, because it was the same system still and people would get

10     fired for minor transgressions.

11        Q.   First of all, nobody was fired because they went to church, and

12     it was particularly impossible after Tito's death.  There was not a

13     single case in Serbia that somebody was fired, especially in the local

14     commune, because they went to church.

15        A.   There were cases like that.  There sure were.

16        Q.   You invented all of that.  And when you got there, and when you

17     married your wife in church, then you said that, earlier on, you did not

18     have the possibility of getting married because you had been prohibited

19     from doing that; right?

20        A.   Well, that's what I said just now.

21        Q.   It took you 12 years.  I'm trying to say that up until 1990, you

22     were a member of the League of Communists and an informant of the state

23     security service, and as such, you didn't want to go to church because

24     you were a man of the regime in your village.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

Page 10723

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I ask for relevance.  What has that to do with

 2     the expulsion of Croats from Hrtkovci with the witness personal things

 3     like marriage and baptism of his children?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, a small detail.  You

 5     were a Catholic.  From what I understand, under the communist regime,

 6     Catholics ran up against difficulties because they didn't have a job but

 7     this prevailed after Tito's death, which was a real problem.  This is

 8     what I understood.  Did you hear what I said?  Sir, what do you have to

 9     say this, which would explain why you got married a few years later.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said clearly that I

11     was a member of the League of Communists only for the sake of work

12     because it was hard to get a job.  I did baptise my children 150

13     kilometres away so the people wouldn't know about it, and I didn't dare

14     marry in church because of my work.  When I left the village, I got

15     married.  Is it a shameful thing to be a Catholic today?

16             MR. SESELJ:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] It was not a shameful thing to be a Catholic in

18     the times of communism either, and nobody was persecuted for their

19     religious beliefs.  But nobody could be a member of the League of

20     Communists if they professed a religion, and also, they could not go to

21     top leadership positions.

22        A.   They would be punished.

23        Q.   However, in order to have someone work as a plumber or as a

24     member of the council of the local commune, one did not really have to be

25     a member of the League of Communists; isn't that right, Mr. Baricevic?

Page 10724

 1        A.   That's what you think.

 2        Q.   It's not what I think, I know, I experienced that.  I was

 3     persecuted under that regime, but I do not allow you to present this

 4     regime a lot worse than it actually was, as if they ate little children

 5     alive.  That is what you are trying to say.

 6             Now, there was a total number of 2 million members of the League

 7     of Communists of Yugoslavia at the time.  Do you remember that,

 8     Mr. Baricevic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Around 2 million.  And the population of Yugoslavia was 21

11     million; right?  So, 10 percent in relation to the total population were

12     members of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia.  If one-third were

13     roughly minors, then out of 14 million inhabitants of age, 2 million were

14     members of the League of Communists.  Not everybody else was unemployed

15     and persecuted; right?

16        A.   Well, I don't know if that's the way it was, but at any rate, in

17     my situation I did not dare do that.

18        Q.   There is something else that makes your situation more difficult,

19     your father's name was Ivan; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   He was an Ustasha during the Second World War?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   He was an Ustasha.  I have a document of the state security

24     service stating that he was an Ustasha.  You want to see the document?

25        A.   I don't want to look at it.

Page 10725

 1        Q.   Oh, you don't want to look at it?

 2        A.   And it wouldn't be right to bring up my dead father's name.

 3        Q.   It is right to mention your dead father's name if he was an

 4     Ustasha and if that charted your destiny and you had to prove yourself to

 5     be a communist that was a lot more of a communist than everybody else.

 6        A.   That's not true.  There is not a grain of truth in what you are

 7     saying.  Not a grain of truth.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The Prosecution would be grateful if Mr. Seselj

 9     could provide us with a copy of what he has there.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are saying you

11     have a document.  We don't have this document.  You can say anything you

12     like.  We don't have this document, what is it?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your service, if they want to, can

14     quickly -- well, look actually, I was supposed to receive this document

15     with an accompanying letter.  This was provided to me by the state

16     security service of Serbia through the counsel for cooperation with

17     The Hague Tribunal at the request made by my legal advisors.  However, my

18     legal advisors provided me with a single copy.  I did not prepare this as

19     I usually do prepare everything else, because I do not have communication

20     with my associates.  However, somebody from the registry can make a copy,

21     I don't mind.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, is it in B/C/S?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Only one speaker at a time

25     can be interpreted.  Thank you.

Page 10726

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a document in B/C/S;

 2     this is a document in the Serbian language.  I did not express any wish

 3     for you to read this.  The Prosecutor asked for it and I am willing to

 4     make it possible to have a photocopy made.  I would have prepared this on

 5     time, as I always did, if I had communication with my associates.  Since

 6     I don't, I try to make do, I find this paper, that paper, but the

 7     Prosecution does have this document.  It was published in that book of

 8     mine.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj is talking

10     about your family's past, which we know nothing about.  Do you agree, do

11     you disagree with him.  If you disagree, say so, and then he will move on

12     to something else.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not agree.  Absolutely

14     not.  Can I clarify something?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please clarify.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who were in the enemy army

17     were in prison.  My father never even saw a prison, let alone do time in

18     prison.

19             MR. SESELJ:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] You know full well that that is not true.  Some

21     of them who were captured straightaway were summarily executed, some were

22     tried before a court and others were amnestied, pardoned, because there

23     were several cases of pardon.  Probably no one carried out an

24     investigation or the investigation did not come to the conclusion that

25     your father had personally committed crimes.  He was not tried, but he

Page 10727

 1     had been a member of the Ustasha formations and this was a nightmare for

 2     you and that made you be much more of a communist than people usually

 3     were.  You wanted to prove that you were a greater Catholic than the pope

 4     as it were.  That is the core of the matter.  That is why I believe that

 5     you were so firm in your communist beliefs and why you were an informant

 6     of the state security service.

 7        A.   I've already told you, there is not a grain of truth in any of

 8     this.

 9        Q.   All right, then.  Let's move on.

10        A.   All of this is a pure fabrication.

11        Q.   Perhaps the state security service is fabricating things.  We'll

12     see.

13        A.   That's for sure.

14        Q.   Now, let us deal with the agreement on the exchange of moveable

15     and immovable property.  You concluded this contract with

16     Ranko Milosavljevic?

17        A.   Branko.

18        Q.   Branko Milosavljevic and Stanka Stjepanovic; right?  On the one

19     hand is Branko Milosavljevic, Stanka Stjepanovic and their daughter

20     Branka; right?  And the other side is you and your wife,

21     Elizabeta Baricevic.  Your signature is on the contract; am I right?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   What is the case?

24        A.   On one side it is me and my mother.

25        Q.   Thank you for this correction.  Elizabeta is your mother; right?

Page 10728

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, this is the property that you are exchanging or swapping

 3     from Branko Milosavljevic and his family you are receiving land, 1

 4     hectare, 38 acres, and 89 square metres of land.  Please follow me

 5     carefully and correct me if I'm not wrong.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has this contract.

 7     They could have presented it to you here, Judges.  Why they didn't, I

 8     don't know.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

10     document.

11             MR. SESELJ:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Then also 22 acres and 98 square metres of

13     arable lands.

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We don't have the document --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  -- just for the information of everybody here.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Don't have the document, very

18     well.  Please proceed.  Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you see Mr. President, this

20     lack of seriousness.  They proof a witness, they prepare him for six

21     years to testify in my trial, to accuse me of persecuting Croats in

22     Hrtkovci.  This is a witness who exchanged his property and went to

23     Slavonska Pozega, and it didn't cross their mind to get the contract on

24     the exchange of property and immovable property which would be the key

25     evidence here.  Should I continue with this?  Should I just provide this

Page 10729

 1     information, what it was that they provided, that is to say, this family

 2     of Branko Milosavljevic and --

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI:  [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm sorry, but I

 4     was still listening to the translation.  I believe you are the person who

 5     needs this for your cross-examination.  You have conducted an in-depth

 6     investigation as regards this witness.  Maybe you could have -- have this

 7     document admitted.  I would have been quite happy with that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, the contract was

 9     published in that book of mine.  Since my communication with my legal

10     associates has been severed, I don't have the original of the contract.

11     They have it, though.  And I am now using the contract that was published

12     in the book.  I have it here.  I have a copy.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Not abridged.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

15     ... an interpretation of your last words.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Only one speaker can be

17     interpreted at a time.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My fellow Judge said that the

19     communications were not cut, but that you were the person that

20     interrupted all form of communication.  In any case, there is a pending

21     motion regarding this particular issue.  Please proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thirdly, [B/C/S spoken] arable

23     land, 1 hectare and 10 square metres.  Follow me carefully.  [B/C/S

24     spoken] meadow, 28 acres.  [B/C/S spoken] meadow, 28 acres, 31 square

25     metres.  [B/C/S spoken] meadow, 9 square metres and 2 hectares, a house

Page 10730

 1     and the land surrounding it, 23 acres and 98 square metres.  Then [B/C/S

 2     spoken] land of 59 acres and 34 square metres.  Is that the property that

 3     was given to you by Branko Milosavljevic's family in exchange for your

 4     property?  Did I read it out right?

 5        A.   No, no.  There are things missing.

 6        Q.   What is missing?

 7        A.   Gromulja.

 8        Q.   Gromulja is missing?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Where is this Gromulja?

11        A.   In Jaksic.

12        Q.   That was not in your contract, you managed to extort that with

13     the assistance of the Croatian authorities after you moved there.  I have

14     that judgement here as well because you claimed, or, rather, when they

15     were no longer in Croatia, when they were not even informed of the fact

16     that these proceedings were ongoing, you said that you were not given

17     this land of Gromulja, and then the court granted it to you with the

18     explanation that this was omitted from the contract by mistake.  Is that

19     right?

20        A.   I've already said that Stanka came to my house.  She was the

21     daughter of Branko and Desanka.  I went to Pozega to see what was there

22     and what did I see.  We went to see the lawyer Primorac, and she drew up

23     a contract.  Mistakenly she omitted -- well, was it intentional or not, I

24     don't know, but she was Stanka's friend.  Let me tell you that Stanka was

25     a judge in Pozega, and this woman was a lawyer.  Now, I don't want to

Page 10731

 1     make any assertions as to whether this was done intentionally or

 2     unwittingly, but there is one thing that is important and that is that

 3     Desanka, Stanka's mother, made me the owner of every one of the fields

 4     there.

 5             I did not even see that this little part was missing.  Only a

 6     month later, she sent me new contract from Pozega.  She gave it to Cacic,

 7     and this had to do with this small field, and he asked for 5.000

 8     Deutschemark, and they took me to court.  I objected to the court and I

 9     brought in witnesses who went along with me when the woman was making me

10     the owner of all of this.  So that is the whole story.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we have heard the

12     witness at great lengths.  Contrary to what you are saying, he is not the

13     person who instituted the legal proceedings but the other party, this is

14     what he is saying.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not what he said,

16     Mr. President.  I don't know what kind of interpretation you are

17     receiving.  Listen, a contract was concluded here.  It's a very specific

18     one and it gives the exact numbers of the land that is being exchanged.

19     What one party is providing, what the other party is providing.  When all

20     of that was completed, when this Serb family left Slavonska Pozega and

21     went to Hrtkovci, when Mr. Baricevic became the owner of this property,

22     then he appeared as a plaintiff before the Croatian court, and he asked

23     for yet another field of 1 hectare and 70 acres.  It was owned by Stanka

24     Milosavljevic-Stjepanovic.  That field had not been the object of this

25     exchange.  Stanka had not been informed at all of these court

Page 10732

 1     proceedings.  It was only 12 years later that she found out that that had

 2     happened and she asked for a retrial.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj is saying

 4     that you are the person who instituted these legal proceedings before the

 5     Croatian court.  Was it you or was it the other people?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave you my answer.

 7     Mr. Cacic from Pozega came to see me, he had a contract and he asked me

 8     to give him 5.000 Deutschemarks, and he filed a legal suit against me in

 9     court for compensation of damage.  And because I had witnesses for the

10     handover of the property, I brought those witnesses, I called those

11     witnesses to indicate that that is what she did and that's what she

12     originally wanted to do.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

14             MR. SESELJ:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Who were those witnesses, Mr. Baricevic?  Were

16     they Nikola Lulic, Ante Grizelj and Marko Kalic?

17        A.   Ante Grizelj.  Ante Stipic.

18        Q.   And who else?

19        A.   And it seems to me that it was also Ilija Sutalo.

20        Q.   Ilija Sutalo, Ante Grizelj, Nikola Lulic, and Marko Kalic.

21     Marko Kalic came from Hrtkovci together with you.  And you, together with

22     them, joined this Paraga's party formation that continued to persecute

23     Serbs in Pozega; is that so?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Yes it is.  Yes it is.  Now let us see, what is it that you gave

Page 10733

 1     in return?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, witness.

 3     Mr. Seselj is stating something which can be important.  He is saying

 4     that you joined the Paraga formations.  Is this true, not true?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not true.  I was not in any

 6     kind of army.

 7             MR. SESELJ:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Well, I didn't say that you were in an army.

 9     You took part in the activities of this terrorist group that continued to

10     torture the properties, to fire shots at their house, to harass Serbs,

11     and to speed up their departure from Pozega.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are stating

13     this.  Do you have any evidence, any proof, any documents.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

15     ... from the state security service, where it says that Zvonko Paulic

16     also took part in that.  He is the son of this witness's sister.  He was

17     a member of the Croatian MUP and that he went as far as to bring some

18     Serbs to the new house of this witness and they were mistreated and

19     harassed there in order to be forced to flee Slavonska Pozega.  This is

20     what is it says in a document from the state security service, and the

21     Prosecutor can check over the phone in Belgrade whether this is an

22     original document that I have in my hand.  He can call the counsel for

23     cooperation with the Tribunal to check whether I did receive a document

24     from the state security service about Franja Baricevic.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have two issues, the accused is alleging that

Page 10734

 1     the witness has allegedly committed crimes.  He should, in my system at

 2     least, he should be cautioned that he is not obliged to answer these

 3     things.  And another thing, a little observation, I've been here in court

 4     several times, I have only one time got from Mr. Seselj in advance

 5     documents he was using in cross-examination and that was at the end of

 6     the examination-in-chief, and I got it in B/C/S.  I think this approach

 7     is completely unfair.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj,

 9     normally speaking, since you do not ask any of your documents to be

10     admitted, normally speaking, the Prosecution should have a copy of all

11     the documents you are going to be using during your cross-examination

12     beforehand.  But since you did not ask these documents to be admitted, we

13     face a void.  Please proceed.  You have five minutes before the break.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me remind you, Mr. President,

15     that I have always provided the documents in advance, both to the

16     Prosecution and to the Trial Chamber, while I was able to cooperate with

17     my legal advisors.  Once a stop was put to that, I have been unable to

18     continue doing so.  But 15 to 20 days ago, I handed this book to the

19     Prosecution, this whole book, and then the Prosecution informed me that

20     they are already working on this book and that they intend to charge me

21     with contempt of court because of this book.  And after I could no longer

22     cooperate with my legal advisors, I have been unable to provide documents

23     in advance, but that's not my fault.  I used to do that always.

24             But as far as translation is concerned, that's not my concern.

25     Translating documents into English and French.  That's really not my

Page 10735

 1     concern.  I don't want to concern myself about it.  I am guaranteed right

 2     to use my own mother tongue.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Another little observation.  In my system, it's

 5     completely unlawful to publish statements given to the Prosecution and

 6     which I expected to be used in court.  It is the reason for these

 7     regulations, and I know that it is in several European countries the

 8     same, is not to influence the witness.  My assumption that Mr. Seselj is

 9     publishing these statements already much in advance and slamming the

10     witnesses who are coming here in court.  He has a specific reason to do

11     this and as I don't want to speculate.  Everybody should conclude what

12     the reason might be for this.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I say something?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not difficult for you to

17     check.  You can check in the Croatian MUP whether there is a single note

18     about me there in their files.  What Seselj is saying about me, this is

19     just lies, pure and simple.  I state this here with full responsibility,

20     here as I sit before you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Fine.  Mr. Seselj.  It's been

22     recorded on the transcript.  Mr. Seselj, proceed.

23             MR. SESELJ:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Baricevic, please follow closely.  I

25     will now list the property that you gave in exchange.  The property that

Page 10736

 1     you had in Hrtkovci.  It's a house, an arable land and yard, the size is

 2     6 acres, 42 square metres.  Then another stretch of arable land, 17 acres

 3     and 90 square metres.  Then [B/C/S spoken] arable land, 68 acres, 31

 4     square metres.  [B/C/S spoken] arable land, 1 hectare, 13 acres, 9 square

 5     metres.  And your mother gave arable land in Sicara [phoen], the size was

 6     75 acres, 66 square metres.  And you together, you and your mother gave

 7     an orchard; the size is 14 acres, 52 square metres; orchard 7 acres, 37

 8     square metres; and orchard, 8 acres, 92 square metres.  Is that right?

 9     Did I read everything?

10        A.   No, that is not so.  What is missing here, it says only one house

11     whereas -- well, what does it mean if you give an orchard in exchange for

12     meadow?  If you are smart, you can figure this out.

13        Q.   Yes.  But the question is what state this orchard was in; is that

14     not so, Mr. Baricevic?

15        A.   The orchard was in good state while it was in good hands.

16        Q.   It was a very bad state, Mr. Baricevic.

17             Now, as you concluded this contract, you determined that the

18     value of both properties was 800.000 Croatian dinars; is that so?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And there is a provision in that contract that this exchange is

21     entered into voluntarily and there shall be no further payments made by

22     any parties, is that so?

23        A.   Well, if that's what it says in the contract, then that is the

24     case.

25        Q.   And this is a contract that was entered into before the Croatian

Page 10737

 1     authorities, it is registered before a Croatian court?

 2        A.   Let me just say that only one house is listed here.  Where is the

 3     other house?

 4        Q.   Well, the other house was torn down as soon as the Milosavljevic

 5     Stjepanovic family came to Hrtkovci because it was completely unusable.

 6     It was an old adobe house, nobody could live there.

 7        A.   Well, this house stands there today.

 8        Q.   That house is unusable.

 9        A.   Stanka's mother lives in that house and Stanka lives in the new

10     house that I built, the one with the attic.  I know that very well.

11     Nobody can tell me anything about that.  I'm sure about what I'm saying.

12        Q.   Well, let's see what Stanka has to say about that.  She says that

13     they gave you a house in Slavonska Pozega which was a surface of 110

14     square metres; is that right?  Does it have 110 square metres?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   How much -- what is the surface then?

17        A.   The surface is 95 square metres.

18        Q.   Stanka Stjepanovic, in her statement, says 110 square metres,

19     fully completed and furnished with parquet floors and tiles and

20     furniture.  Did you find any furniture in that house?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'll go straight to

22     the point.  You have a contract, a contract has been described at length,

23     so now the other part of the contract is talked about.  Were you

24     victimized in this exchange or were you the beneficiary?  This is a

25     question I put to you.  From what I understood, the Defence is saying

Page 10738

 1     that you were the beneficiary and not the other people.  What do you have

 2     to say to that?  Were you victimized or were you the beneficiary?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me say this once

 4     again, that I left behind a house and Stjepanovic was already in that

 5     house.  I came to the house where Desanka and her husband were.  That

 6     house had been torched.  I left two houses.  One was a new house built in

 7     1983, the other one was built in 1953.  I signed the contract because I

 8     didn't want to lose everything.  I didn't want to be left out in the

 9     street.  And now it is up to you to judge who is losing here, who is the

10     war profiteer here.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be, it is

12     difficult to establish who the winner and the loser is.  For this to

13     happen, the two properties would have had to be assessed.  We don't have

14     the contract because the Prosecution in its -- in the presentation of its

15     case did not show us the contract, and Mr. Seselj is not going to admit

16     the document.  We are going to have a break and resume in 20 minutes

17     time.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Please replace not

19     abridged by not interrupted

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

23     And I take this opportunity to welcome the new arrivals in the OTP.

24     Mrs. Biersay, for example, very happy to see you.

25             Mr. Seselj, you have 50 minutes left and you have the floor.  50

Page 10739

 1     not 15.  50.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. SESELJ:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] I hope that I won't talk all of those 50 minutes

 6     that I have to complete my cross-examination.  Mr. Baricevic, you see

 7     there is an interesting sentence in the statement that Desanka

 8     Milosavljevic made.  She says that all the rich Croats remained in

 9     Hrtkovci, those who owned a lot of land, whereas those Croats who were

10     poorer, less well off, and who had this opportunity to pick and choose

11     much better things than they left behind in Hrtkovci.  What do you think

12     about this statement?

13        A.   Your Honour, I have already explained to this Chamber what I had

14     owned and what kind of situation I encountered in Jaksic.  Now, as to who

15     remained and under what conditions and for what reasons, I would not go

16     into that.  I know that some rich people left, some rich people stayed,

17     and all I take care of is myself.

18        Q.   And of the rich Croats from Hrtkovci, who left?

19        A.   Well, there are quite a few of them.

20        Q.   Well, there are those but you don't know their names?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Tell me this, if we bear in mind that until mid-1992,

23     200.000 Serbs were expelled from Croatia, and when we take into account

24     the 200.000 that were expelled in 1995, that is the figure of 400.000

25     Serbs expelled from Croatia and only a few thousand Croats left Serbia.

Page 10740

 1     Now, if we look at this in purely economic terms, if we set aside the

 2     horrible ways in which Serbs were persecuted in Croatia and the Tribunal

 3     in The Hague refused to prosecute those who are responsible for it, let

 4     us look at the economic aspect.  We have the law of supply and demand on

 5     the market.  For -- first 200.000, then 400.000 Serbs are looking for

 6     somebody to exchange their property, their shops, their small factories

 7     with; and on the other side, you have just a few thousand Croats.  Who is

 8     in a better position here when it comes to this exchange, because the

 9     logic of the law of economics tells us that those who are in demand are

10     in a better position on the market than those who offer what they have to

11     offer in vain; is that not so?

12        A.   I told you what my situation was, how I fared in this exchange.

13     I lost a brand new house, and it takes two generations to build it.  My

14     father and myself, we worked hard for that and I lost that.

15        Q.   So you would not venture into this economic -- logic of

16     economics, the law of supply and demand, you don't know about that?

17        A.   Of course I wouldn't.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's not get into

19     economic logic.  It's true that if we have a market with 400.000 people

20     on the supply side on the one hand, and a few thousand on the other side,

21     on the demand side, then that could be a bit strange.  But what I'm

22     interested in your answer is the following:  I think I understand now

23     that all Croats from Hrtkovci didn't leave.  Some of them stayed in

24     Hrtkovci, which is important.  But what I'm interested in is the

25     following:  Among the Croats who left, it seems that there were some rich

Page 10741

 1     Croats who actually stayed and the lesser well off seemed to have left.

 2     But as far as you remember, could you tell us how many Croats stayed in

 3     Hrtkovci.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that

 5     460 families moved out from Hrtkovci, and 300 families within a month.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many stayed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly speaking, maybe 6 or

 8     7 per cent remained.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, we will have a

10     demographer here and we can discuss it with her, because this witness is

11     not an expert.

12             MR. SESELJ:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Baricevic, after you left for Jaksic, you

14     went back to Hrtkovci how many times did you go back to Hrtkovci after

15     your departure?

16        A.   Twice.

17        Q.   And how many times did Desanka Milosavljevic and her daughter,

18     Stanka Stjepanovic, go to Jaksic, to Slavonska Pozega?

19        A.   I don't know that.  I did not get into touch with them, they

20     didn't get in touch with me.

21        Q.   And is it the usual situation for Croats who lived in Serbia to

22     be able to go back to Serbia much more often and it is much easier for

23     them as opposed to the Serbs who were expelled who don't dare go to

24     Croatia?

25        A.   Well, I don't know that, but I really was quite apprehensive

Page 10742

 1     about going to visit my father's grave.

 2        Q.   But in the end you did there and you didn't have any problems?

 3        A.   I didn't have any problems.

 4        Q.   Fair enough.  That's very important.  Do you know how many

 5     thousands of Serb houses were destroyed throughout Croatia, not in combat

 6     zones, outside of the combat zones, in Split, in Sibenik, in Zadar, in

 7     mainland Croatia.  Do you know that?

 8        A.   As far as I was able to see in Pozega and around it, the houses

 9     were destroyed, but now they have been fixed.

10        Q.   How many empty Serb houses still remain throughout Croatia?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   And do you know about any Croat houses in Serbia that were torn

13     down, about an instance when somebody came and destroyed somebody's house

14     because that somebody was a Croat?

15        A.   I don't know that.

16        Q.   Do you know if any Croats were deported from Serbia?  Do you know

17     what it means to deport somebody?  The authorities or some other armed

18     group captures you and forces you to leave, and you have to leave all

19     your property behind.  Was any Croat expelled from Serbia and were forced

20     to leave their property behind?

21        A.   Well, there were some cases.

22        Q.   Who?

23        A.   For instance, Jurcevic.

24        Q.   Where was he expelled from?

25        A.   From Hrtkovci.

Page 10743

 1        Q.   Who expelled him?

 2        A.   I don't know who expelled him, but he left after I did and he

 3     came without anything.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are kindly

 5     asked to make pauses between questions and answers.  A few questions and

 6     answers are missing, note the interpreters.

 7             MR. SESELJ:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] How can you say that he was expelled?  How can

 9     you say that he was expelled and you don't know who expelled him and how?

10        A.   Because he entered an apartment and he is building himself a

11     house.

12        Q.   Wait a moment.  That is not proof of him being evicted from

13     somewhere.  Did he have a house in Hrtkovci?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What happened to that house?

16        A.   He left it.

17        Q.   What do you mean left it, did he sell the house?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   He just left the house and the house just stayed on?

20        A.   I guess somebody moved in.  I'm saying that this happened after I

21     had left.

22        Q.   Oh, I guess.  Never mind, I don't want you to say things like "I

23     guess."  Is it correct that in addition to this house in Jaksic of 110

24     square metres, did you get a shed that is between 60 and 70 square

25     metres?

Page 10744

 1        A.   The shed was on four pillars.  There wasn't even any concrete

 2     there, just four pillars, and there wasn't a proper roof either, that's

 3     the exactly the way it was.

 4        Q.   Perhaps.  You also got a big building in the yard with ainfort,

 5     and Stanka told me that this is a big door through which one enters the

 6     economic part of the yard.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, this is a classical passageway in Slavonia.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.  Also that you found their sheds,

 9     pigsties, chicken coops, smoking huts, and buildings for cattle fodder,

10     and things like that; is that true?

11        A.   Well, every farmhouse is supposed to have that.

12        Q.   This is not every farmhouse.  This was the house that belonged to

13     this very prominent farmer, and everything was at the highest

14     technological level, right?

15        A.   Sir, I would not go into all of that without checking properly

16     what the state of the house was.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Speakers are overlapping

18     again.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the situation in Hrtkovci,

20     you just --

21        Q.   Let's wait for us to get to Hrtkovci.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj and Mr. Witness do not overlap because

23     it is impossible for the interpreters to catch, and then we don't

24     understand what you are saying.

25             MR. SESELJ:

Page 10745

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] One of these fields was right by the asphalt

 2     road, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is tilling land.

 4        Q.   And it is very convenient for breaking it up into smaller plots

 5     for building houses?

 6        A.   It is arable land.

 7        Q.   But Stanka Stjepanovic says that it is 100.000 Euro worth.

 8        A.   Well, when all the public utilities get there, but that will be

 9     in about ten years or so.

10        Q.   But it is very valuable and you cannot consider it be -- well,

11     even to this day, you wouldn't just sell it as arable land.

12        A.   It is being sold as arable land.

13        Q.   By who?

14        A.   My neighbours.

15        Q.   Nobody is trying to sell it now.  Everybody is waiting to sell it

16     for big money.  Also you got a tractor that was bought just before the

17     war broke out with all the necessary machinery and accessories; am I

18     right?

19        A.   No, you are not right.

20        Q.   They left you all the furniture and everything they had in the

21     house; right?

22        A.   That's not right.

23        Q.   And from -- and you took everything from Hrtkovci from your house

24     and you left an empty house?

25        A.   That's not true.

Page 10746

 1        Q.   So what is true then, they took everything and you left

 2     everything behind?

 3        A.   Your Honour, once again, I would like to repeat this.  This

 4     departure of ours -- I mean, this going back from Jaksic to Hrtkovci,

 5     when I signed this contract with Mira Primorac, I had to go back in order

 6     to give Stanka the contract to have it confirmed in Ruma.  And then, yet

 7     again, I went back, or rather, in Jaksic, Branko and Desanka were still

 8     there, and I went back and my daughter -- or, rather, their daughter was

 9     in the house as I was going between the two houses.  And Ante Grizelj and

10     I, on one occasion, took this little truck and we divided this up in

11     half, this is one half, this is the other half, are you going to load it

12     or will I, and then we loaded on to this little truck the most basic

13     clothing and two couches.  The house was full, or, rather, both houses

14     were full, the refrigerators were there, everything else.  When I

15     returned to Jaksic through Hungary, then I unloaded these bits and pieces

16     that I brought in.  Desanka loaded a full truck, that full truck, and

17     went to Hrtkovci.  Now that is the whole truth.  That can be confirmed

18     not only by one person, but by 20 persons who know about this.  They know

19     that I had no bed to lie in until I brought in my things because they had

20     taken everything.

21        Q.   Is it true that you did not leave a single agricultural machine

22     in Hrtkovci that was in operational order?

23        A.   That's not true.

24        Q.   And you found in Jaksic all the agricultural machinery you needed

25     that was in proper working order?  You left an old tractor and you found

Page 10747

 1     a perfectly new one?

 2        A.   That's not true.

 3        Q.   I'm checking.  All right.  I have Mrs. Stanka Stjepanovic's

 4     statement, and now I'm checking with you what is true and what is not

 5     true.  Well, the very fact that not at any point in time did you look me

 6     in the eye is telling enough.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This tractor, when you arrived,

 8     was there a tractor?  Yes or no?  Had they left a tractor?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a tractor there, but then

10     I had left my tractor behind too.  So one tractor for another tractor.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you give us the make of

12     this tractor?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] IMT.  A small one, 35 horsepower.

14     And it was manufactured in 1969.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did it work?  Did it operate

16     properly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It worked properly, normally.  If

18     you maintain it properly.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can imagine, Mr. President, how

20     well a tractor that is 23 years old works.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one I talked about now is the

22     one that I found in Jaksic, what I talked about.

23             MR. SESELJ:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  This is what Mrs. Stanka Stjepanovic

25     says, that in Hrtkovci they found an old, dilapidated house of 60 square

Page 10748

 1     metres.  So you got a house of 110 square metres and you gave a house of

 2     60 square metres; right?  How big was your house in Hrtkovci?

 3        A.   I've already said, I said yesterday that my new house, with an

 4     attic at that, was of the following dimensions:  11 by 12.  Whereas the

 5     old house -- just a moment, please.  It was 8 by 15.

 6        Q.   Wow, a palace, sir.  A palace.  8 by 15.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   120 square metres, the foundation?

 9        A.   And out buildings too.

10        Q.   The house that you called your new house, does yours have a

11     parquet floor at all?

12        A.   No, but floor heating.

13        Q.   There was no floor heating.  There was concrete there, and then

14     you plastered some kind of wall-to-wall carpeting on the concrete.  Is

15     that what you call parquet flooring?

16        A.   I'm saying it's not parquet flooring but it was heated floors.

17        Q.   What do you mean heated floors?

18        A.   Well, you know.

19        Q.   Using electricity?

20        A.   Using water.

21        Q.   What do you mean water?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, maybe you might

23     move on to something else.  You should move on to something else.  We'll

24     never know unless the Trial Chamber goes on site to check out your old

25     house and the house you obtained through swapping.  I don't have any time

Page 10749

 1     for this.  I'm sitting on two trials every day, I don't have any time to

 2     go on site.  But if I had had time, I would have invited my fellow Judges

 3     to go and check things on site.  Maybe the Prosecutor, during the

 4     investigation, could also have taken pictures of your old house and the

 5     new one, could have been done.  If we had had pictures, you know, we

 6     could have compared.  But we have nothing, so I don't think that we can

 7     draw any final conclusion out of all this.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 9             MR. SESELJ:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] This old house, as you've been calling it,

11     according to Stanka Stjepanovic's testimony, was torn down as soon as

12     they arrived because it could not be used.  And also they had to adapt

13     the house that you call the new one to make it liveable.

14        A.   That's a pure lie.

15        Q.   Fine, fine.  It's obvious here who is lying and who is not lying.

16     It's very obvious here.  The very fact that you are not able to look me

17     in the eye when answering my questions is very telling, as far as I'm

18     concerned, and I'm a great psychologist.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, don't intimidate

20     the witness.  You have your own version, he's got his own.  The Judges

21     will decide.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, all right.  If you

23     consider this to be intimidation, then I'm not going to say that to him

24     again.  But it's all right if he says lie, whereas I'm not allowed to say

25     lie even when something is the most blatant possible lie.  But anyway,

Page 10750

 1     who do I have to blame.

 2             MR. SESELJ:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] You know who Marko Kalic is?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He arrived in Jaksic too; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   He also swapped houses with Jovo Njemcevic; right?  Do you know

 8     that he swapped houses with him?

 9        A.   I know that he swapped houses, but I don't know the name of the

10     man.

11        Q.   Now, his name is Jovo Njemcevic and he gave a statement to me

12     about his own fate.  He was also subjected to attacks there.

13     Ilija Sutalo led this group of Croats, he says that too.  They were

14     torching and blowing up Serb houses, harassing people and causing a great

15     deal of unrest, and then Marko Kalic came to him after having gone

16     through all this harassment, and then he made this offer to swap houses.

17     Since Jovo Njemcevic had lived there on his own, his daughter and

18     son-in-law lived in Belgrade, they were concerned about him and they

19     decided to swap houses, or, rather, property with Kalic.  Jovo Njemcevic

20     says that he went to the Pozega SUP with Kalic and that that's where he

21     got a proper emigration document allowing him to leave Croatia, but he

22     could no longer go back to Croatia; is that correct?

23        A.   I really don't know.

24        Q.   Could you enter Croatia without a certificate from the local

25     parish priest that you had been baptized in the local church?

Page 10751

 1        A.   I could enter, but I could not exercise my rights.

 2        Q.   What rights?

 3        A.   Well, for instance, say, get married, then, well, to have my

 4     children receive the holy communion and the sacrament.

 5        Q.   Before leaving Hrtkovci, you obtained a certificate from the

 6     local parish priest, Niko Kraljevic, that you had been baptized a Roman

 7     Catholic at the church there; right?

 8        A.   No, later.

 9        Q.   When later?

10        A.   Well, later.  Later.  A man brought this to me.

11        Q.   What was this man who brought this to you?

12        A.   Do I have to say?

13        Q.   You do have to say.

14        A.   Stipo Roland.

15        Q.   Where did he bring that from, Hrtkovci to Slavonska Pozega?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What passport did you use for entering Croatia?

18        A.   Well, I mean, the Yugoslav passport.

19        Q.   The passport of the SFRY, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It hadn't been changed in Serbia yet, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And the Croatian authorities no longer recognised that passport.

24     With that passport one could leave Croatia but one could not enter

25     Croatia with that passport?

Page 10752

 1        A.   That's not true.  The passport was valid and one could travel

 2     with it for as long as it was valid.

 3        Q.   Well, the Prosecution showed us proof here that one could not

 4     enter Croatia without a certificate issued by local parish priests to the

 5     effect that a person belonged to the Roman Catholic church?

 6        A.   Well, I did enter.

 7        Q.   Oh, you entered.  All right.  And he complains that in Jaksic he

 8     had a big proper house, property, valuable machinery and that in Hrtkovci

 9     he found a dilapidated house of 60 square metres.  Do you know what kind

10     of a house Marko Kalic had in Hrtkovci?  He is your neighbour, you'd have

11     to know.

12        A.   I think that the best answer would be for you to ask Marko.

13        Q.   Why would I ask him, I'm asking you.  You know.  You know where

14     Marko lived.

15        A.   I saw the house but I never entered the house.

16        Q.   You saw this house in Hrtkovci?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What kind of a house was it?

19        A.   Well, a house is a house.  It has a gate, it has a door, it is

20     painted, it has a roof and what kind of material it was made of, that I

21     don't know.

22        Q.   Oh, you don't know.  Well, then, fine, let me believe you on

23     that.  Katica Paulic is your sister, right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Your very own sister?

Page 10753

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   She moved to Zagreb, right, from Hrtkovci?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is that true?

 5        A.   It's true.

 6        Q.   Do you know when she moved, do you remember?

 7        A.   I know that she moved after I did.

 8        Q.   When was that?

 9        A.   Well, I moved in May, and then she perhaps moved out in late May,

10     early June.

11        Q.   What kind of a house did she have in Hrtkovci?

12        A.   She had a house, I know that very well, because my father and I

13     helped her build the house.

14        Q.   What kind of a house was it?

15        A.   It had an attic.  It had a cellar.  The dimensions were 10 by --

16     I don't know, 9 by -- 9 or 10, never mind.  And in front there was a

17     shop.

18        Q.   What kind of a house did she get in Zagreb?

19        A.   In Zagreb, she got a house at Zitnjak.  In Ivanja [phoen] -- no,

20     no, not Ivanja.  She got this tiny little house.  This year, she had to

21     build a new roof because the old roof almost fell on her head.  It was so

22     rotten.

23        Q.   How could that be?

24        A.   You can check that.

25        Q.   Dragutin Spiric, a Serb from Zagreb, is who swapped houses with

Page 10754

 1     her.

 2        A.   I don't know his name.

 3        Q.   His house is 4 kilometres away from Zagreb, Zitnjak, right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   That's what Dragutin Spiric says.  I don't know.  I don't know.

 6     I visited Zagreb several times but I don't know it very well, perhaps you

 7     know it better; is that true?

 8        A.   Well, Zagreb, yes, but not 4 kilometres away from the centre.

 9        Q.   He says it's 4 kilometres away from the centre.  Is it closer to

10     the centre?

11        A.   It is further away from the centre.

12        Q.   Further on he says that this was a big, well-appointed house and

13     that in the house in Hrtkovci he found only concrete and that his wife

14     was in tears when she realized what she had come to.  And then soon after

15     that, he died.  He had an apoplexy.  All of this was very difficult for

16     him.  So, feeling so sad and desperate, he died.  Do you know about that?

17        A.   I don't know that he died, but I knew that the house was well

18     appointed.

19        Q.   You knew that it was well appointed.  Was Katica Paulic expelled

20     from Hrtkovci?

21        A.   I think she was.

22        Q.   You think.  But do you consider yourself to be a thinker of some

23     sort?  And Katica left for Zagreb on her own, she swapped her house, and

24     her husband and her son remained living in Serbia for a time; is that so?

25        A.   No, it isn't.

Page 10755

 1        Q.   How is it not so when her son went to the high school of the

 2     interior affairs in Sremska Kamenica and her husband stayed with him

 3     there until he could complete his secondary education and then get a job

 4     Croatian MUP?

 5        A.   Well, they moved later, all of them.

 6        Q.   No, no.  They waited for the son to complete his training, so

 7     Katica went first and then her son and her husband joined her; is that

 8     so?

 9        A.   No, it isn't.

10        Q.   Well, if you say that it isn't, I think it would be pointless for

11     me to continue asking you question this is this vein because I'm sure

12     that everything is quite clear on the basis of your answer so far.  I

13     have completed my cross-examination.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  Is there any

15     redirect the Prosecution?

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have only one short question.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

19        Q.   Mr. Baricevic, yesterday you were asked by Mr. Seselj, you were

20     asked by Mr. Seselj about Chetniks.  He said, well, and it is on page

21     10666, line 11, and the wording is:  "Well, they wore Chetniks caps and

22     they shouted, 'This is Serbia, this is Serbia.'"  This is was your

23     answer.  Mr. Seselj says:  "Why do you bother about Chetnik caps?  These

24     are traditional Serbian insignias."  And he was also referring to songs

25     which these Chetniks sang.  Can you explain us what Chetnik for you meant

Page 10756

 1     at that time?  Were you informed about history, about the reputation of

 2     Chetniks?  Can you explain this please, to us?

 3        A.   Your Honour, when I was in elementary school, we were taught

 4     history, and the way we were taught history, Chetniks and Ustashas were

 5     the enemies of the Yugoslav people.  That's the way I was brought up.

 6     And when I saw that, I found it quite horrifying, and I forgot to mention

 7     yesterday one thing.  When I saw on Franjo Magoc's wall, a song, some

 8     lines from a song, well, Croats, there is a deep hole waiting at the end

 9     of the line for you.  For a peaceful village, this was really a big deal

10     and on the Catholic church, you could see the four C -- four S signs and

11     you could see the letter U painted on the walls of the houses.  It was a

12     great shock.  Not only for me but for the people as a whole.

13        Q.   Have you and the other inhabitants of Hrtkovci been scared about

14     all this, what happened?

15        A.   Well, of course, they were scared.  You go to bed in fear.  You

16     don't know who is going to live to see the morning.  While my children

17     were at home, I didn't sleep downstairs.  I went to sleep up in the attic

18     to guard my children while they were at home, and that's what forced me

19     to take my kids out of the school before the end of the school year and

20     to move them, to take them to my wife's parents to a safe place.  I

21     didn't do that on a whim.  I did it because I was afraid.  I was

22     concerned for their lives, the life of my wife and, in the final

23     analysis, my own life.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection, Judges.  I

25     didn't want to object before the witness replied, but this is a general

Page 10757

 1     objection.  I would like to tell you that the national assembly of the

 2     Republic of Serbia rehabilitated Chetniks led by General

 3     Drazen Mihajlovic, as an anti-fascist formation from the Second World

 4     War.  So you have the subjective picture of the Chetniks and the picture

 5     that was painted of Chetniks by the communists, and there is the whole

 6     other thing which is the objective truth, historical truth about

 7     Chetniks.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's on the

 9     transcript.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is no answer for the reasons the

11     inhabitants had to be scared [sic].  I have no further questions.  Thank

12     you, Mr. Baricevic.  And, Your Honours, I have no further questions.  I

13     have finished.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have one small

15     question.  I was very interested by your answer.  You said that you were

16     in grade school and that you were taught that the enemies of the Yugoslav

17     people were the Chetniks and the Ustashi.  This is what you were taught

18     in school, you were told that the enemies of the Yugoslav people were the

19     Chetniks and the Ustasha?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you were raised in that

22     belief then, is that it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While Tito was alive, there were no

24     Chetniks, there were no Ustashas.  It was prohibited to sing the songs of

25     either side, and that's the way I was taught and that's the way I lived.

Page 10758

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did you sing, yourself?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were songs that were

 3     not nationalist songs that you could sing, but nationalist songs could

 4     not be sung.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you Mr. Witness.  I have two small

 7     questions for you and I realise that you may already have answered them,

 8     and in that case, I just ask for your indulgence.

 9             But the first question I had was regarding the bus full of

10     black-uniformed men who came just before Mr. Seselj was about to give his

11     speech on the 6th of May, 1992, in Hrtkovci.  We have spoken at length

12     about who these soldiers were, and you told us that you were told by

13     others that they were White Eagles.  And so this remains still an open

14     question because we have no further proof of whether or not they were

15     actually members of the White Eagles.  This is why I want to ask you if

16     you noticed any insignia on the uniforms or any caps that they were

17     wearing, or any other visible traces that could support your opinion that

18     they were members of the White Eagles.  Did you see that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The caps, well, those people did

20     not wear the kind of caps that were worn by the army as it was at the

21     time.  They wore caps with the cockades, whereas the army and the police,

22     at that time, bore a five-point stars as their insignia, and they had the

23     cockades.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, if I understand you correctly, the soldiers

25     who came to Hrtkovci on the 6th of May, they were having cockades shown

Page 10759

 1     in their hats?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What sort of hats or caps were they wearing?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was a military style cap.

 5     It was black, but instead of the five pointed star, there was the cockade

 6     that was stuck on it.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  So it was not fur -- fur hats.  It was a

 8     military --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, it was not.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And did they have any -- did you notice if they

11     had any insignia on their uniforms, other than what they had on their

12     hat?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see that.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  The other question I have for you,

15     and again I apologise if you have already told us so but it may have

16     simply slipped my mind, is whether you had a chance to see the house in

17     Jaksic before you were forced to enter into -- before you signed the

18     contract for exchange.  Did you actually have a chance to see and assess

19     the property that you were exchanging for your own two houses in

20     Hrtkovci, or did you do that without having seen the new property?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said at one point

22     that when Stanka Stjepanovic came into my house, I went to Croatia and I

23     found her parents in that house.  The windows were boarded up.  There

24     were no -- there was no window panes.  The barn was burned down and the

25     roof on the house was also burnt.  But I signed the contract because at

Page 10760

 1     the time people were already living in my house and they were living in

 2     this house here, so if I didn't sign the contract, I was -- I stood to

 3     lose everything because that was the system in Hrtkovci.  If somebody got

 4     into your house, it was difficult to evict them.  And that's why I agreed

 5     to the swap.

 6             I knew that I had much more, but what could I do?  My children,

 7     my wife were already in Croatia.  I didn't have a house at all.  My

 8     children had to go to school.  They had to complete that school year.  I

 9     was forced to sign the contract.

10             The villagers who came to see me told me flabbergasted, Franja,

11     how could you do this swap, but I had to do it, that was my fate, and I

12     fixed this house.  I am still fixing it and I will bring it up to the

13     standard that I had where -- in the house that I left, in a couple of

14     years.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Was there any possibility of you, once you had

16     moved into the new house in Croatia, to move on to another house

17     somewhere else in Croatia?  Had that been possible?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I didn't understand

19     you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I am sorry.  My question was, if it was possible

21     once you had moved into the house in Jaksic in Croatia, whether you could

22     move on from there to another house in Croatia and perhaps a better

23     house?  Was that a possibility or were you simply stuck with the house in

24     Jaksic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What possibility?  When I signed

Page 10761

 1     the contract for that house, and I forgot to mention that Stanka, this

 2     very same Stanka who is now living in my house, sold a house in Pozega,

 3     pocketed the money, and entered my new house and that house was not new,

 4     the one that you described as new is not new.  That was an old house,

 5     built in the 1960s.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, to finish.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have to draw your attention

 9     to two things.  The five-pointed star was removed from police uniforms in

10     1991.  That was official.  And the cockade was put on the caps with the

11     Serbian flag, and from military uniforms the five-pointed star was

12     removed in early 1992, as soon as General Veljko Kadijevic resigned as

13     the Defence minister, because he had opposed this.  And I would also like

14     to note that Stanka Stjepanovic, as the witness himself admitted, was a

15     judge in Slavonska Pozega.  As a judge, she had to leave Slavonska Pozega

16     and to flee to Serbia.  I would like to draw your attention to those two

17     important elements.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think the record is not correct.  I was

20     answering to Mr. Seselj at page 62, line 10, and my answer is written

21     down there as:  "This is no other reason for all inhabitants to be

22     scared."  What I think I said and I wanted to say is, this is no reason

23     not to be scared.  This should be corrected.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We'll make the

25     correction.  Thank you.  Mr. -- well, witness, you have just finished

Page 10762

 1     your testimony.  I thank you for having come to answer the questions put

 2     to you by the Prosecution, the Defence, and the Bench.  I wish you a safe

 3     journey home.  And I will ask the usher to escort you out of the

 4     courtroom.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] I shall also ask the registrar

 8     to move into closed session and drop the blinds for the next witness,

 9     please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need a

 7     private session to start with.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session now, Your Honours

 9                           [Private session]

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Page 10768

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25                           [Open session]

Page 10769

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, you have the

 2     floor.

 3             MS. PRASAD:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will start by reading

 4     the short summary of the witness evidence.  The witness is a Croat who

 5     lived with his parents in the village of Hrtkovci until they were forced

 6     to leave in August 1992.  The relations between different ethnic

 7     communities in Hrtkovci were harmonious, mixed marriages were perceived

 8     as normal.  The problems began after 6 May 1992.  The witness describes

 9     the activities of the members of the SRS before and after 6 May 1992.  In

10     particular, the involvement in expulsion of the Croats from Hrtkovci.

11     During the autumn of 1991 and spring of 1992, a large number of Serbian

12     refugees came to Hrtkovci.  The arrival of these Serbian refugees was

13     organised by the SRS.  The local SRS must have had help from persons in

14     higher positions in Belgrade.

15             Ostoja Sibincic organised the so-called exchange of houses in

16     Hrtkovci.  The Serbian refugees who arrived in the village went to

17     Sibincic to get addresses of Croat houses which they would occupy.

18     Sibincic would provide these refugees with the necessary information to

19     locate the house and to evict the Croatian occupants.

20             At the beginning of 1992, the witness saw armed Chetnik groups

21     meeting at a bar in the centre of Hrtkovci.  The Chetniks carried

22     automatic guns and knives and they wore peaked caps with Kokardas on the

23     front.  The local Croats felt intimidated by the presence of these

24     Chetnik volunteers in their village.

25             Seselj came to Hrtkovci on 6 May 1992.  During his speech, Seselj

Page 10770

 1     read a list of names in public and stated that the Croats would have to

 2     leave with only plastic bags in their hands.

 3             The witness was informed by other people that Seselj read a list

 4     of names of prominent Croats who were to be expelled.  Seselj also said

 5     that the children born from mixed marriages were to be killed.

 6             From 6 May 1992 onwards, the atmosphere became hostile for the

 7     Croats in Hrtkovci.  There were threats that Croats would be killed if

 8     they did not leave their houses.  Some Croats received telephone threats.

 9     Groups of men would go harassing the villagers in order to convince the

10     villagers to leave and exchange their house.  The witness mentioned

11     groups of 20 Serbians who went and kicked Croats out of their houses.

12             The police would protect the perpetrators instead of the owners

13     of the houses.  Bomb threats were also frequent.  Serbian refugees would

14     go directly to the houses where Croats lived and tell them to give up

15     their houses.

16             In June 1992, the witness's relative was killed.  As a result of

17     the death of his relative and the exchange of houses by his immediate

18     neighbours, the witness decided to leave Hrtkovci.  The witness and his

19     parents packed their belongings and left for Croatia.  They finally

20     settled in Jaksic where the witness arranged the exchange of his house

21     with a Serbian who still lives in Hrtkovci.

22             Your Honour, that concludes the summary.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, now ask the traditional

24     questions, please.

25             MS. PRASAD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10771

 1                           Examination by Ms. Prasad:

 2        Q.   Before we discuss the Exhibit 65 number 5044, Mr. Witness, did

 3     you give a statement in 2002 to representatives of the Office of the

 4     Prosecutor?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And in 2005, did you certify this statement before

 7     representatives of the registrar of this Tribunal?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have an opportunity to review your written

10     statement in your own language?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PRASAD:  Usher, could you please hand out the hard copy of

14     the statement 65 ter 5044 -- questions to the witness.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, could you look at the third page with number 0465-6591,

16     which is the first page of the English version with number -- ERN number

17     0189-8834.

18             Witness, do you see your signature?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And if you could flip through those other pages --

21        A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.

22        Q.   Do you have your initials at the bottom of the page?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Witness, could you look at page 7, the number is 0465-6595 --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10772

 1        Q.   -- which -- page of the English version with ERN number

 2     0189-8839.  Witness do you see your signatures?

 3        A.   I do see my signature.

 4        Q.   And does that statement accurately reflect your recollection of

 5     the events described in it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Witness, if you were asked the same questions today, will you

 8     have -- will it be a reflection of your account?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. PRASAD:  Your Honours, we would move for the admission under

11     seal of this document, 65 ter number 5044.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Trial Chamber will decide after

13     we have put a few questions to the witness.  Do you have any questions to

14     put to the witness?

15             MS. PRASAD:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Very well.  I have a few

17     questions for you, using your statement as a basis for these questions.

18             Regarding what happened before May 6, 1992, before Mr. Seselj's

19     speech, could you please tell us whether in your village there were

20     political parties that you are aware of or were you totally unaware of

21     the political parties that existed in your village?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said in my statement, I

23     did not really know about this very well, but I do know that it was the

24     SDP there that was the strongest party, that was the Social Democratic

25     Party, then the SPO, and then this other party, just a moment, please,

Page 10773

 1     the Croatian party led by Bela Tonkovic and the Serb Radical Party.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me discuss the Serbian

 3     Radical Party.  How did you know that the Serbian Radical Party existed

 4     before May 6, 1992?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what, it's a small

 6     place.  People know all these things.  Sibincic was bragging and he and

 7     Aco Ejic, as far as I know, established --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 9     continues] ... I believe that there is a problem with the microphone,

10     witness, because it's very difficult to hear.  Mrs. Biersay, is that the

11     problem?

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, it's interpretation that's missing, at

13     least for me.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let's start over again.

15     Regarding the Serbian Radical Party, according to you, who was member of

16     the Serbian Radical Party?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the SRS?  There were new

18     people there who had already exchanged houses.  There was Ostoja Sibincic

19     and this group around him.  I didn't know exactly who the members were

20     but it was his friends, people who were like minded.  You never could

21     tell because it's not that I ever saw a list so that I would know exactly

22     who all the members of the Serb Radical Party were.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you know Sibincic?  Did you

24     discuss with him?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never talked to him, but I

Page 10774

 1     knew him.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You knew him but you never

 3     spoke to him.  Very well.  Who told you that Sibincic was a member of the

 4     Serbian Radical Party?  Was it hearsay?  Did you know that it was -- did

 5     somebody really tell you about it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't only a question of

 7     rumours.  For example, when he spoke in taverns and public places, he

 8     showed it himself.  But not directly in some contact with me.  You would

 9     hear people talking about this, you'd hear him talking.  You'd stand at a

10     bit of a distance and you'd hear him talking.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So that is what he

12     said.  On May 6, 1992, Mr. Seselj came to Hrtkovci to make a speech.

13     Where were you on that day, on May 6, 1992?  It seems that you did not

14     attend the speech.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That day I was in the watermelon

16     and melon fields.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Obviously you would rather be

18     in the field with melons and watermelons than listen to Mr. Seselj.

19     Fine.  But the speech, had you heard about it beforehand or were you told

20     about it afterwards?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about that speech later,

22     after it was actually made.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What exactly were you told?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was told that the names of

25     eminent Croats from the village were read out and it was stated that they

Page 10775

 1     had to move out.  Also, that it was said at this gathering that mixed

 2     marriages should be divorced, that the children should be killed.  It is

 3     people from mixed marriages who talked about this the most.  They were

 4     the ones who complained about it the most.  They were moaning about what

 5     was wrong with their children, why would they have to be killed.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you remember if someone from

 7     a mixed marriage told you that?  As far as you recollect, can you give us

 8     a name or not?  It did happen a long time ago and I fully understand that

 9     you would not really remember who said what to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot remember exactly.  I

11     cannot remember the names and I wouldn't like to mention them either.

12     After all, these are people from mixed marriages, and from time to time,

13     they go to Hrtkovci so I'm afraid for their safety.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you did not

15     attend the speech.  And you can only tell us what people told you.  Now,

16     let's move to the core of your -- the main element of your statement,

17     which is the house exchange.

18             Can you tell us how it happened?  To start with, can you describe

19     your own house in Hrtkovci, how many rooms it had, what size it was?

20     Could you describe your house to us.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was a house that was

22     similar to the one that I swapped it for.  It is only natural that we

23     cannot exchange houses for an absolutely identical house.  It was a

24     house, say, with three rooms, a kitchen, a pantry, a bathroom, and then

25     the smaller buildings outside.  They are as big as they are.  You cannot

Page 10776

 1     really have an ideal swap.  I exchanged my house, tractor, all my

 2     agricultural machinery and land.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was a three-room house with

 4     a kitchen, bathroom, and there was some agricultural land and a tractor.

 5     Let's talk about the agricultural land.  Could you tell us what was the

 6     acreage where you were planting those watermelons.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I only planted

 8     watermelons and melons.  All other crops were there too.  It was over 7

 9     hectares, my land was, and I got around 6 hectares.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 7 hectares.  Very well, now we

11     have a good idea of the size of this agricultural land.  How was the

12     exchange going to take place, what happened, who told you to do what?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, how did this

14     exchange take place.  People kept coming to the village and offering

15     exchanges of houses to us.  They gave us addresses in Croatia and made

16     offers to us to go there and see for ourselves, and, for example, there

17     was even a little ad by the shop saying that there were 30 or 40 houses

18     in Kula by Pozega in Croatia that were supposed to be swapped.  I got

19     into my car, I took some of these addresses and I didn't like those

20     properties that I went to.  It so happened that I went to Jaksic and I

21     accidently bumped into this man, and I asked him whether he wanted to

22     swap and he said yes.  So we reached some kind of an agreement and

23     then --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me stop you.  You said that

25     people had arrived, these were Serbian refugees who wanted to swap

Page 10777

 1     houses.  You said that there were also ads for house swaps, then you told

 2     us that on your own volition, you decided to try to look for a house, and

 3     you ended up in Jaksic.  So before talking about the exchange with the

 4     owner in Jaksic, I would like to know why you wanted to leave?  What was

 5     the motivation behind that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, what were the reasons.  My

 7     uncle had been killed, threats were coming in every day.  These groups of

 8     five, six or seven men would break into the yard and they were saying

 9     that I had to leave.  These threats were being issued every day.  A man

10     could not go on living in a normal way.  You could not work all day and

11     get proper rest at night if there was this kind of pressure every day.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] One small detail.  You just

13     said that there were groups of men who came every day to threaten you.

14     Were these groups made up of Serbian refugees who had left Croatia or

15     were they Sibincic's people?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were Serb refugees

17     there, but there were also armed groups there too.  I don't know who they

18     belonged to, but they always had pistols, some of them even had hand

19     grenades and some even wore camouflage military uniforms.  So the

20     psychological pressure was even greater that way.  They would unbutton

21     their shirts and they would show their belts with hand grenades and

22     pistols.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you decided to leave, and

24     you drove to Jaksic.  Who did you meet there?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as we drove through Jaksic,

Page 10778

 1     we stopped precisely this man with whom I swapped houses.  He was on a

 2     tractor, and we asked whether he knew of someone who wanted to swap his

 3     house and he said that he did.  We went to his house, we had a look at

 4     everything, and after that, his two sons-in-law and two daughters came to

 5     see our house because they had been living in Belgrade, and that is how

 6     the agreement on the swap was made.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was his name, this person

 8     that you swapped houses with?

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MS. PRASAD:  Your Honour, can we redact the name of the --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely right.

14     Mr. Registrar, we need to redact the name that is on line 17 of page 82,

15     because that might help identify our witness.  There's a 30-minute lag

16     anyway, so this mistake will be fixed easily.

17             Now, could you please describe his house.  How many rooms, did he

18     have a tractor, was there any farmland?  Describe his house.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His house also had three rooms, a

20     kitchen, a bathroom, a toilet, all of that.  It was similar to our house

21     except that the building style was a bit different.  Also, perhaps some

22     of the smaller buildings were a bit smaller, however, you can never have

23     an exchange that is absolutely equal.  However, their tractor was

24     smaller, it had fewer accessories, and therefore, it was agreed that at

25     that time they would pay us 2.000 Deutschemark for the machinery because

Page 10779

 1     theirs were less valuable.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you agreed and on top of the

 3     house exchange, he also gave you 2.000 Deutschemark.  Was there a

 4     contract for this agreement, and if so, where was it signed?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We signed a contract, of course,

 6     about exchange of real estate and machinery.  The contract was signed in

 7     the municipal building in Pozega.  It was drafted by a lawyer, and so it

 8     was signed in Pozega and then again it was signed also in Ruma.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was registered with a

10     Tribunal in Ruma.  As part of this exchange, were you a loser or a

11     winner?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when you get to the bottom

13     line, the only thing where I was a loser was with land.  But if you have

14     to choose between safety, a safe life, it is better to opt for safety,

15     for being alive, then for some land, because if you're dead, you can't

16     really do anything with land anyway.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a theory put forward

18     by the associates of Mr. Seselj, the Defence case, and I shall tell you

19     what this is about and ask you what your feelings are, that is the role

20     of the Bench to confront the theory put forward by the Prosecution and by

21     the Defence.

22             Now, this is what the Defence submits.  The Croats expelled the

23     Serbs who lived in Croatia, and after that, there were two waves of Serbs

24     who went to Serbia, who used to live in Croatia.  One first wave

25     including 200.000 Serbs around the year 1992, and another wave of 200.000

Page 10780

 1     Serbs in 1995.  All in all, 400.000 Serbs left Croatia to come and settle

 2     in Serbia.

 3             The Defence theory runs as follows:  All these Serbs who left

 4     Croatia were forced to leave, were driven out.  Some of them were

 5     mistreated and so on.  I will not go into the details of all this.  On

 6     the other hand, Croats, like you, living in your community and other

 7     communities, other villages, left for Croatia, and these Croats amounted

 8     to 1.000 or so people.  We don't have an exact figure for the time being,

 9     but supposedly, 1.000 or so Croats went back to Croatia to go live there.

10             So this is my first question:  Do you agree upon the figures with

11     me?  A lot of Serbs arrived from Croatia and a number of Croats left for

12     Croatia.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't keep statistical data

14     so I don't know the figures for people who moved from one side to the

15     other and vice-versa, but I'm sure that more Serbs came from Croatia into

16     Serbia and Vojvodina than Croats who left the Serbian Vojvodina to go to

17     Croatia, because there were more Serbs living in Croatia than were Croats

18     living in Vojvodina.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another theory put forward by

20     the Defence during cross-examination a while ago, runs as follows:  The

21     Croats who, like you, left Croatia met up with Serbs to exchange their

22     houses, and given that the Serbs were intimidated and victimized, they

23     seized this opportunity since the Serbs had to leave Croatia and exchange

24     their flats with people like you who had come to see them.  And you said

25     that you yourself went to Croatia and went to see the person whom you

Page 10781

 1     were going to exchange your house with.  Is this true or not?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I went to Croatia

 3     to look at the house that I was to swap, but it is also true that Serbs

 4     could come to our village to look at the houses that they would swap.  It

 5     is not true that we, on both sides, could not see the houses and the

 6     property that we would be exchanging.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another argument put forward by

 8     the Defence which we are submitting to scrutiny as follows:  Among those

 9     Croats that left Hrtkovci, most of them were not wealthy people or people

10     of an average income who left because they had small houses and small

11     plots of land whereas the wealthy Croats who had large houses and a lot

12     of land stayed.  In other words, the underprivileged Croats left for

13     Croatia whereas the wealthy Croatians stayed.  What do you think of this?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, there are some

15     rich Croats who remained because they were able to pay Sibincic

16     protection money, so that he would leave them alone.  And I know that

17     there are rich Croats who went to Croatia, and you can check that if you

18     look at the houses in Hrtkovci that Croats had left behind, and then look

19     at the houses that they got in the exchange in Croatia.

20             It is easy to say I left a bad house and got a better one.  It

21     all depends on whether houses are in villages or in towns or in big

22     cities, because the value of a house here in the centre of The Hague is

23     different from the value of a house on the outskirts of The Hague, just

24     to give you an example.  But there is a village of Ciglenik or Porec near

25     Pozega, even if houses that were there were better than the ones that the

Page 10782

 1     Croats left in Hrtkovci, the problem is location.  Those villages are

 2     really in the back of beyond, so even if it's a big house it's worth

 3     nothing.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 5     continues] ... among the farmers, since you were a farmer, were you a

 6     poor farmer, did you have an average income or were you wealthy, in what

 7     category would you have been put at the time?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was medium income.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You'd be an average income

10     earner.  You said something which we haven't heard so far; nothing

11     escapes me.  As soon as I hear something new, I put the question to the

12     witness directly to ask for more detailed information.  You said that

13     wealthy Croats had given money to Sibincic to be able to stay and left

14     alone.  Was Sibincic racketeering people and telling them, I shall

15     protect you, but you need to give me some money and then you won't have

16     any problem?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, something like that.  That's

18     what I heard some Croats say.  I shouldn't really give you their names.

19     But it is not true that only Croats moved out, there were Hungarians who

20     were quite well off who moved to Croatia.  They didn't want to pay the

21     protection money to Sibincic and they had to move out.

22             My uncle also moved to Croatia, to give you another example.  He

23     was also well off.  He had all kinds of farming machinery, a lot of land,

24     so it was not the rule for just middle class and the lower income people

25     moved out into Croatia.

Page 10783

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You quoted your uncle as an

 2     example.  What was the surface area?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he had over 15

 4     hectares of his own land.  He had all the accessories for the tractor and

 5     for the harvesting of sugar beets, because our area was well known for

 6     sugar beet, so he left all of that and went to Croatia.  There was also

 7     our village doctor.  He had 15 or 20 acres of land and he farmed the

 8     land, yet he left it behind and he went to Croatia and he is unemployed.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, as far as you

10     are concerned, a number of Croats left for Croatia and they weren't the

11     winners in this exchange, they were the losers.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.  We were the

13     losers.  First of all, land in Srem is much better.  It yields much more

14     than the land in this part of Slavonia around Pozega, Nasice, Slatina,

15     Bijelova [phoen], for instance.  The land there is much poorer than in

16     Srem, in our parts in Srem.  And if Mr. Seselj or somebody else, if you

17     don't believe me when I say that, you can find experts who are going to

18     test the land.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If the Trial Chamber has enough

20     time, it can go and visit the area to see how much land there is, but for

21     the time being we don't have time to go there.  We shall see.

22             Let me now talk about something which is in your statement.  You

23     said that your uncle -- well, that something happened to your uncle.

24     Could you tell us what this is, but do not give us his name.  Let's move

25     into private session.  Registrar, please.

Page 10784

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session now, Your Honour

 2                           [Private session]

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24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10785

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your statement, you said

23     that you saw people looting houses.  It seems that you witnessed this

24     with your own eyes.  Can you tell us exactly what you saw as far as

25     looting of these houses is concerned?

Page 10786

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three houses down the road from my

 2     house, a group of people broke into my neighbour's house, and this

 3     neighbour of mine was in Croatia looking for a house for the exchange.

 4     His brother-in-law was there looking after the house and this group of

 5     maybe 15 or 20 people simply threw him out of the house, and this house

 6     was then occupied by a Serb from Croatia.  In the meantime, my neighbour

 7     was able to exchange his house with a Serb from Rijeka, and when this man

 8     came to Hrtkovci, he couldn't get into the house.  He had to allow the

 9     other man who was already in the house to take everything out, all the

10     things that he wanted.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One witness told us that the

12     Serbs who had been driven out of Croatia were very discontent and they

13     were blaming the government for not doing anything, and we were told that

14     a lot of them were armed and walking around armed.  Did you see this with

15     your own eyes?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw armed people moving

17     around because they came into my yard and they threatened me at gunpoint.

18     They had pistols, some of them even had automatic weapons.  But as they

19     went around, they were usually protected by the police.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that the police

21     was protecting them.

22             My last question, a great number of Serbs come to your village

23     and they are looking for houses because they need to sleep somewhere.  It

24     seems that a lot of them are armed and they burst into houses in the way

25     you described, but what was the state doing?  What was the police doing,

Page 10787

 1     standing nearby, powerless, because everyone is overtaken by the

 2     situation?  Why did the JNA not come to establish or re-establish law and

 3     order?  What kind of explanation can you give us?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an explanation.  The

 5     police did nothing, as I indicated in my statement, until I spoke with

 6     the president of the Ruma municipality after my uncle's murder.  She said

 7     I have to come to Hrtkovci and deal with the situation but I can't do it

 8     with the police in Hrtkovci, I have to come with the special forces.

 9             When she came to the village a couple of weeks later with the

10     special forces, then law and order were re-established.  Nobody broke

11     into houses, we Croats started moving out in an orderly fashion.

12     Roadblocks were set up at the entry and exit roads in the village so that

13     some control was established over who got in and out and then there was a

14     lull.  It was it is my opinion that until that time, the police was

15     commanded by somebody else, and I don't know whether the president of the

16     Ruma municipality was given approval by Milosevic or somebody else at the

17     top to calm the situation in Hrtkovci down a little bit or not, but my

18     opinion is that she was.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the Bench put questions,

20     new information surfaces.  You have just mentioned something which we

21     have never heard before.  You were saying that the president of the

22     municipality in Ruma had been advised of the crime and you said that this

23     person did something about it.  Special police forces purportedly came

24     and re-established law and order.  Roadblocks were set up along the

25     roads, when did this actually happen, what month?

Page 10788

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in July.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] July, that's when peace was

 3     restored.  So in 1992, before the month of May, after the month of May,

 4     June, that's when law and order is re-established, before that it was

 5     unruly, is that how things happened?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, something like that.  The

 7     unrest followed Mr. Seselj's visit to the village, and then once the

 8     special police entered the village, then this unrest was lesser.  There

 9     were still some provocations, but less attacks on the houses.  People

10     were not evicted from their houses anymore.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's something interesting

12     in what you said.  These special forces arrive in July, and law and order

13     is re-established, but after July, Croats decided to leave.  They could

14     have just stayed.  Croats left after July, did they?

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to redact line 21, page

18     92, I need to do all things at once.  Please make sure that this is done.

19             They left after that, but they didn't have to leave since law and

20     order was back again.  Why did they leave?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what kind of a life is it if

22     you have to be under police guard all the time?  We were not used to

23     that.  We were used to moving around freely.  So they were guarding us in

24     the village, but out in the fields, what about that?  They were

25     destroying our crops.  You go into the field and you see somebody else

Page 10789

 1     harvesting your crop, watermelons, potatoes, and somebody can just kill

 2     you there in the fields just like that.  They had weapons.  We didn't

 3     have weapons.  We didn't have anything to defend ourselves with.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When exactly did you exchange

 5     your house, on what date?  I didn't ask you that question.  On what date

 6     did you exchange your house?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of August, as far as I

 8     can remember.  That's when I moved to Croatia.  That was the date of the

 9     final move.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on the 18th of August, you

11     left when order was restored; is that right?  Last question.  Every time

12     I say it's a last question, but I always put a last question after your

13     answers.

14             When you went to Croatia after 1992, 1993, 1994, you worked, then

15     you gave the OTP a statement in 2002.  At some point, did the Croatian

16     intelligence services or the Croatian office of the prosecutor or

17     Croatian police officers, did they come and visit you in your house or on

18     your farm to ask you whether you were prepared to testify for this

19     Tribunal?  Were you contacted in such a manner or did you not see anyone

20     save for the representatives of the OTP who was represented by

21     Mr. Paolo Pastore-Stocchi, whom we all know.  Did you see anybody else

22     apart from him?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That day when I gave the

24     statement, a representative of the Croatian police in plain clothes came

25     to my house and he asked me if I wanted to give the statement and I said

Page 10790

 1     I wanted to, and then I went to actually provide the statement.  But that

 2     was only on that day that I gave the statement to Mr. Stocchi, that's

 3     when this happened.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Croatian police officer

 5     didn't tell you that you should say such and such and not such and such?

 6     Nobody tried to influence you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody exerted any influence.  I

 8     came home from work, I didn't even have lunch.  This gentleman came and

 9     told me you should come to such and such a place, they are waiting for

10     you there.  So I took my own car, I didn't go in his car.  I took my own

11     car.  I waited there for maybe an hour or two hours until it was my turn

12     to give a statement.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm turning to members of the

14     Bench to see if they have any questions for you.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were not there when

16     Mr. Seselj delivered his speech, but had you heard about security and did

17     you know who was in charge of these security measure, the local police?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I really don't

19     recall that too well, about the security at that rally.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll turn to my colleague.  No

22     questions.  I'm turning to the Prosecution, do you have any redirect?

23             MS. PRASAD:  Your Honour, could we go into the private session

24     for a moment.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Very well, let's move to

Page 10791

 1     private session, Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session now, Your Honour.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, let me say

18     that the witness's written statement has been tendered and -- under P654

19     [as interpreted] under seal.  Mr. Witness, I would like to thank you --

20             First, Mr. Seselj, you do confirm that you not want to ask any

21     questions for cross-examination purposes, right?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not going conduct a

23     cross-examination.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I would like to

25     thank you on behalf of my colleagues and myself.  Thank you, sir, for

Page 10792

 1     come coming to testify for the Prosecution.  I wish you all the best for

 2     your return home.  Before you leave this courtroom, we need to drop the

 3     blinds.

 4             I think you can leave.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] We are in open session.

 7     Mr. Seselj, let me discuss the schedule for next week.  The Trial Chamber

 8     has handed out a decision that was filed today.  It might take some time

 9     to have it translated into your own language and you might not have it on

10     time.  This has to do with Mrs. Ewa Tabeau, expert witness for the

11     Prosecution scheduled for Tuesday and Friday [as interpreted].  The

12     Trial Chamber decided that Mrs. Tabeau, the expert witness, will come on

13     those days.  She will be examined in chief by the Prosecution for 30

14     minutes, using her report as a basis for this examination-in-chief.

15     After which, Mr. Seselj, you will be given two hours, I repeat, two hours

16     to cross-examine this expert witness.  After this, if need be, the OTP

17     will be entitled to ask additional questions and will be granted one hour

18     to do so.  Of course, the Judges are also entitled to ask questions but

19     no time will be set aside for the Judges in all this time.

20             I want to make a correction, I said it was Tuesday and Friday --

21     Tuesday and Wednesday and the transcript reads Tuesday and Friday.  So I

22     want to repeat the days for Ewa Tabeau are Tuesday and Wednesday.  For

23     Thursday we have another witness.  This is what we've scheduled for

24     Mrs. Tabeau.  After all this the Trial Chamber -- after having heard both

25     parties on the questions, the Trial Chamber will rule as to whether this

Page 10793

 1     expert report will be admitted or not.

 2             I wanted to tell you all this because I'm sure that you will not

 3     get our decision in your own language in time because it is several pages

 4     long and I think you needed to be informed of this.  Mr. Seselj, you have

 5     the floor.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should wait a minute for

 7     the blinds to go up.

 8             Mr. President, Mr. President, I'm surprised that you decided in

 9     advance to give the Prosecution one hour for re-examination.  Of course,

10     I'm not opposed to it at all, but I want my rights to be protected as

11     well.  First of all, I come from a legal system in which the Defence

12     always has the last word in relation to the Prosecutor.  So whatever the

13     Prosecutor says in court, the Defence is always entitled to respond.

14             Here the Prosecutor gets an entire hour for re-examination

15     whereas their examination-in-chief is two times less, half an hour.  In

16     other systems, the Defence usually gets more time to cross-examine an

17     expert witness because there's usually an accompanying expert report.

18     Now, if the Prosecutor is going to re-examine twice as long as the

19     examination-in-chief is supposed to take, then there are various dangers

20     looming there of the Prosecutor raising questions that they did not bring

21     up during the direct examination, or things that I did not bring up in

22     cross-examination, or they have the possibility to analyse even further

23     what I brought up during my cross-examination.  Therefore, I ask that if

24     some new questions are raised, you give me time for my additional

25     questions too.  I believe that that would be fair.  That was the first

Page 10794

 1     thing that I wanted to tell you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, let me answer

 3     right away.  The Trial Chamber could very well have decided to admit the

 4     report directly, and only to allow you for cross-examination.  Some

 5     Trial Chambers proceed in such a manner.  However, in order to guarantee

 6     your rights, we decided to grant the Prosecution half an hour to ask a

 7     few questions on the report.  I believe that that is sufficient.  After

 8     that, you will have two hours, which is a lot of time, for your

 9     cross-examination, and as we said in our decision, if need be,

10     Prosecution -- the Prosecution is entitled to redirect, to ask additional

11     questions.  That's in the rules.

12             We decided that given the magnitude of which you may explore in

13     your cross-examination, the Prosecution might need an hour for redirect.

14     If you need, of course, to reply on a few things, you know, you will be

15     allowed to do so.

16             Mrs. Tabeau is a demographer.  She will be talking about

17     statistics, population breakdown, a lot of tables, and so forth and so

18     on.  The Prosecutor might have some additional questions and maybe not,

19     but if they do you will have the floor after them also.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well I have two more things to

21     raise.  First of all, as far as Ewa Tabeau is concerned, you've given me

22     two hours.  I believe that it may happen, I cannot say in advance, that I

23     may need somewhat more time.  I would like to draw your attention to the

24     fact that I've saved up quite a bit of time during cross-examinations of

25     the last few witnesses.

Page 10795

 1             Next week, Ewa Tabeau is the only witness that was envisaged.

 2     There's going to be another 92 ter witness, that's going to be very

 3     short, so we have three days at our disposal.  Please bear that in mind,

 4     if I need more time, more than two hours, please grant me that time.  I

 5     usually don't ask for that, but I would ask in the case of an expert, if

 6     necessary.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll keep this in mind, no

 8     problem.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The third thing that I wanted to

10     raise, today I got a new witness schedule for October, November, and

11     December from the OTP.  This schedule was changed to an enormous degree

12     compared to the one I had earlier on.  There are three problems on the

13     basis of that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you are going to mention the

15     name of protected witness, it would be best to move to private session.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm just going to refer to

17     numbers.  First of all, there are eight witnesses there who are Defence

18     witnesses.  As the Trial Chamber, you haven't ruled yet with regard to my

19     voluminous request pertaining to the protection of Defence witnesses.

20     Secondly, yet again I --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  We handed out a

22     decision, I believe that it is been translated.  At the moment I'm

23     looking at my legal officer and she is nodding, so we have handed out a

24     decision regarding this.  Unfortunately, there is always, you know, a

25     time lag between the handing down of the decision and the translation of

Page 10796

 1     such decision.  We work extremely quickly, as you know.  We try to work

 2     as quickly as possible so you are not left hanging, but the decision has

 3     been handed down.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, on the basis of this, I

 5     conclude that the OTP informs me that you have rejected my request,

 6     otherwise they wouldn't put (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is best not to mention the

 9     pseudonyms and their numbers because it might be possible to identify the

10     persons with these numbers.  We will redact all these numbers.  But I can

11     confirm that on the schedule there are people who you claimed as Defence

12     witnesses, but that the Prosecution wants to call as their witnesses, and

13     the procedure to call them is under way at the moment.

14             Now, whether they will come or not, we will see, and if they do

15     not come, the Trial Chamber will take the necessary steps.  But as of

16     now, they are on the schedule and we wanted to inform you of this because

17     you need to know who is scheduled until December 12th.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, a new name appeared here that

19     was not on the list of Prosecution witnesses.  VS-065 is the name.  The

20     Prosecutor provided me with this witness's statement but this witness's

21     name was never officially put on the list.  I do not have a decision of

22     the Trial Chamber that an expansion of the list was approved.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I don't have

24     this witness on the list.  Mrs. Dahl, you are on your feet.

25             MS. DAHL:  Yes, Your Honour, it refers to a confidential filing

Page 10797

 1     and if we could move into private session briefly.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, private session,

 3     please.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, we are now in private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10798











11 Pages 10798-10799 redacted. Private session.















Page 10800

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             MS. DAHL:  Very briefly, the accused filed submission number 403

22     seeking reconsideration of the Trial Chamber's decision to admit the

23     statements of witness Stojanovic.  The Prosecution will not be filing a

24     written response, given that the accused has identified no new facts or

25     developments in the jurisprudence of the Tribunal that we think warrant

Page 10801

 1     any further discussion.  So we consider that in the absence of any

 2     demonstration that Mr. Seselj is unfairly prejudiced by the decision,

 3     there's nothing more that needs to be said and the motion is ripe for the

 4     Chamber's consideration.

 5             Finally, with regard to a question raised last week concerning

 6     David Tolbert, the Chamber will recall that on 9th October, Mr. Seselj

 7     made a statement that Mr. Tolbert had met with Tomislav Nikolic a few

 8     days earlier that week.  He requested that that information be verified

 9     with Mr. Tolbert.  The Prosecution got in contact with him and

10     Mr. Tolbert has informed us that Mr. Seselj's claim that he met with

11     Nikolic a few days ago is baseless.  He has, to his recollection, never

12     met Mr. Nikolic.  And Ms. Biersay, would you like to address the

13     questions about the DVD disclosure?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say

15     something.  First of all, it's not true that I said that Tomislav Nikolic

16     met up with David Tolbert a few days beforehand.  I said, and that must

17     be in the transcript, that they met two years ago, that he met with

18     Tomislav Nikolic two years ago.  And I ask that David Tolbert make a

19     statement in writing as to whether he met with Tomislav Nikolic about two

20     years ago.  We don't want to have Christine Dahl telling us about it

21     only.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl, Mr. Seselj confirms

23     that Mr. Tolbert would have met with Mr. Nikolic two years ago.  We're

24     now in 2008, so he might have met him in 2006, 2005, I don't know.

25             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, what I understood from the transcript at

Page 10802

 1     page 10580 was that it was concerning two days ago, that was the quote

 2     from the transcript.  Regardless, Mr. Tolbert's answer was unqualified

 3     temporally, meaning that he has no recollection of ever having met

 4     Mr. Nikolic at any time and --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me say one more thing.  This

 6     shows that there is a problem with the transcript.  I said about two

 7     years ago and you can check that in the audio recording.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I remember you talked about

 9     years and you did not talk about days.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Secondly, Tomislav Nikolic admitted

11     to me personally, in the presence of Dragan Todorovic, that he met with

12     David Tolbert and most probably this meeting took place within an OSCE

13     meeting or a Council of Europe meeting.  I seem to remember that it was

14     in Budapest.  I have a witness and Tomislav Nikolic admitted to me that

15     he had met up with him.  In all fairness, he explained to me that he met

16     up with him so that he could advocate to the respect of my procedural

17     rights, and I know why he met up with him because what business did he

18     have meeting with the deputy Prosecutor.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, Mrs. Biersay.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Given that Dr. Tabeau will

21     be testifying next week, I wanted to give the Court an update on the

22     disclosure that we -- that I discussed in court last week.  I believe it

23     was the 9th.  At this point, I believe we've given to Mr. Seselj the

24     reports that he requested, and we've also, at this time, given him all of

25     the transcriptions of Dr. Tabeau's previous testimony before the

Page 10803

 1     Tribunal.

 2             I understand that an issue came up with respect to some DVDs that

 3     were attempted to be disclosed to Mr. Seselj and he rejected those.

 4     Because we had not finished the transcription of the Popovic testimony,

 5     which he indicated in court he was particularly interested in, we

 6     provided him with the audio pending the completion of the transcript.  So

 7     that is what that was.  My understand is that he rejected the DVD

 8     containing her live testimony which was in English and we followed up

 9     with the transcription in B/C/S.

10             And I have been corrected.  We -- the DVD that we ultimately

11     disclosed to him did, in fact, have the B/C/S extraction on it, so that

12     what he did reject was the B/C/S extraction, but we followed up with a

13     hard copy transcription of that extraction.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how come the

15     Prosecutor speaks in such a confused way or the interpreter is

16     interpreting in such an unprofessional way.  I did not understand

17     Ms. Biersay's last sentence at all.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay is saying that at

19     first, you were disclosed a DVD with Mrs. Tabeau's testimony in the

20     Popovic case, if I'm not mistaken.  You did not accept this DVD because

21     it was in English.  Then the Prosecutor gave you a hard copy of the B/C/S

22     of this transcription.  That's what I understood anyway.  Is that what

23     happened, Mrs. Biersay?

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I'll try again.  Thank you.  We

25     provided -- attempted to give Mr. Seselj a DVD.  I think based on our

Page 10804

 1     previous disclosures he decided it was English and rejected it.  It was

 2     actually the B/C/S extraction of her Popovic testimony.  So not in her

 3     own voice but the interpretation.  The same day that we attempted this

 4     disclosure, we also disclosed to him the hard copy transcription in B/C/S

 5     to him.  So in our opinion we have now provided to him all of the

 6     transcriptions, in hard copy and in his language, of all of the previous

 7     testimonies by Dr. Tabeau.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have a hard

 9     copy of Mrs. Tabeau's statements.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I did not refuse to

11     take receipt of the DVD because it was in English, but because the

12     Prosecution is obliged to provide me with a hard copy of all that.  If

13     the Prosecution provided me with a hard copy of the full transcript from

14     the Popovic case, then there's not a problem.  I received the transcript.

15     Unfortunately, I have been unable to read it, but I was able to see that

16     it has only about 40 pages.  So I'm quite flabbergasted how come that the

17     testimony lasted for such a short time because it with me it will not be

18     such a short time.  And I assume that their case is a tiny little bit

19     more complicated than mine.  If the 40 papers are the sum total of her

20     evidence, then there's not a problem at all.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To conclude, Mr. Seselj, I'm

22     fully transparent.  I must tell you and I'm probably told you before,

23     Mrs. Tabeau has already testified in the Prlic case.  I have already seen

24     this person, she testified in that case.  I want this to be very clear.

25     I have already seen this person in another case.

Page 10805

 1             It is now 7 o'clock.  The court stands adjourned and we shall

 2     meet again next Tuesday at half past 8.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

 5                           October, 2008, at 8.00 a.m.