1 Wednesday, 26 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-67-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Today is Wednesday. Let me greet first the representatives of
12 the OTP, Ms. Dahl and Mr. Mundis. Good afternoon, Mr. Seselj, and good
13 afternoon, witness in Belgrade
14 We are going to proceed with the cross-examination of the
16 Mr. Seselj, you may proceed.
17 WITNESS: ALEKSANDER STEFANOVIC [Resumed]
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]
19 [Witness testified via videolink]
20 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, we will now briefly deal with the method of
21 financing, first of all, the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and later of the
22 Serbian Radical Party. As you were then informed about all these party
23 affairs, you ought to be aware that in 1990, I personally funded all the
24 expenses of the Serbian Chetnik Movement; is that correct?
25 A. Mr. Seselj, if I may say something before this. The torture
1 which I experienced yesterday before my testimony continued during the
2 night and this morning. At about 2130 hours this evening, I wasn't at
3 home, but my wife and my mother-in-law and father-in-law were at home.
4 The police came to our door, or a para-police. I really don't know who
5 sent them. But I've been living in that flat for years, and never have
6 the police come to my door, except tonight.
7 Allegedly, Borislav Nikolic sued me for offending His Honour or
8 something like that. And my wife alarmed me this morning, told me not to
9 come home. She said things were getting serious, as she's a lawyer by
10 profession. I spent the night outside my home.
11 However, the Republican Parliament, after two hours of debate --
12 or, rather, for two hours they debated about me, and then
13 Tomislav Nikolic called upon the state organs of Serbia to allegedly
14 investigate my property. They said that I had obtained my property by
15 suspect means, that it should be confiscated. And he called upon the
16 state to put an end to witnesses like me.
17 This is now an orchestrated campaign against me, and in the
18 course of today or in the next few days, the state prosecutor will
19 probably react. Whether this is a directive that has come from The Hague
20 or somewhere else, I don't know, but this is no longer a case of
22 The police came to my door at 2130 to arrest me, to bring me in.
23 If the police don't know I'm testifying and that The Hague is superior to
24 our judiciary, there's nothing for me to say.
25 Another matter is the following: There was a verbal attack on me
1 from the rostrum in the Assembly, and this was wholly inappropriate. And
2 the state organs were called upon to investigate me. One can see that
3 there is something that has been agreed behind the scenes.
4 You can arrest me right now and take me wherever you like, but I
5 feel much worse at present than the accused Seselj does, or anybody else,
6 for that matter.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, two things.
8 I can do nothing with respect to the discussions that took place
9 at the Parliament, but when it comes to what happened last night at 9.30
11 happened. This is the first time I've heard about this.
12 So to sum up, the Parliament members do whatever they like. We
13 have nothing to say about this. But about the police coming to your
14 door, we are going to try and find out what happened exactly and under
15 what circumstances that took place.
16 Mr. Seselj, please proceed with your cross-examination.
17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you and I have been involved in the political
19 life of Serbia
20 anything that's happening to you now. Is this what you expected when,
21 two years ago, you decided to stop being obedient to Djindjic and his
22 heirs and refused to bear false testimony against me; did you expect to
23 suffer unpleasantness?
24 A. Well, there's nothing to expect or not to expect. I'm telling
25 you specifically, the moment when, through Judge Dilparic, I sent written
1 confirmation to The Hague Tribunal in what capacity I wanted to appear
2 before the Tribunal, the following things have happened. I'll give you a
3 list now.
4 In one night, my car, valued at 65.000 Euros, which was only five
5 months old, went missing. It was taken away not by thieves or criminals,
6 but I assume by state organs. I won't name them now. My car was stolen.
7 My documentation, belonging to my company, was stolen, as was an
8 expensive watch I had. And when I made a statement, the police did not
9 oppose what I said, they were silent, and this confirmed that I was
11 And then when the first subpoena arrived a month or a month and a
12 half ago, that same moment the criminal police, dealing with economic
13 crime, and the financial police arrived at my company, as well as some
14 sort of state police and inspectors. Seventeen different inspections
15 arrived. They dragged me out. They interrogated me. I could not devote
16 myself to my business or to preparations for this testimony.
17 When the second subpoena arrived, and I really don't know why
18 subpoenas had to be sent to me, because I never tried to run away from
19 this Tribunal, but quite simply the police arrived in my company and
20 handed over to me this subpoena, and I was -- I'm only then expecting an
21 avalanche, you who concealed this fact. This is now very serious,
22 because my life is at stake and my family.
23 What do I care about The Hague Tribunal and trials and so on?
24 Yesterday, you kept silent about this.
25 In 1994, there was a polemic between the UN and I, a tete-a-tete,
1 and you can deny that. (redacted)
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a minute, let me tell the
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me stop you.
15 You've just mentioned Mr. Nikolic, using totally inappropriate language
16 about him. You can talk about his political views, but you can't go into
17 any personal attacks against him. We are going to redact that part of
18 your statement.
19 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to let
21 Mr. Stefanovic know that I'm not willing to discuss this topic. But I
22 absolutely disagree with your redacting the record, because
23 Mr. Stefanovic is not speaking about what he measured, himself, but what
24 was published in the newspapers and what was scandalous. So please do
25 not redact the transcript, because that's been done too often in these
1 proceedings. I'm truly not interested in this topic, and I don't want to
2 discuss it.
3 Q. Mr. Stefanovic --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber
10 has been extremely clear. Please refrain from any personal attacks about
11 the behaviour or the sex life of anyone. You're not going here to settle
12 accounts with Mr. Nikolic or whoever. You are not going to manipulate
13 this Trial Chamber.
14 And what happens in this courtroom is being broadcast in your
15 country, so I'm going to be very clear. In your cross-examination, you
16 are to focus only on what he said in his statements of 2003 and 2006, and
17 you also have to focus on your responsibility in the charges levelled
18 against you.
19 The attacks against Mr. Nikolic and Mr. Vucic have nothing to do
20 in these proceedings. Do not use this Tribunal to settle accounts in
21 your own country.
22 We are all aware that you held very high political positions. We
23 know that you're a prominent political leader in your country. Please do
24 not overstep the mark, and proceed with your cross-examination, focusing
25 on everything related to the SRS
1 1993. That's what we are interested on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not clear to me in what way
3 I'm dealing with Nikolic and Vucic through these proceedings and settling
4 accounts with them. You are now holding this against me. I did not
5 proof this witness. This is a witness of the Prosecution, not of the
6 Defence. He should have been a Defence witness, and he himself wanted to
7 be a Defence witness. He refused to be a Prosecution witness, and he was
8 brought here under duress. But I did not proof this witness, and I,
9 myself, am surprised by what the witness is saying now. And yet you're
10 telling me that I am settling accounts with people.
11 Yesterday, I prepared the questions I was going to put during
12 cross-examination, which has nothing to do with what has been said now,
13 so why are you holding this against me?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
15 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, the witness is not here under duress. He
16 is here under order of the Trial Chamber to appear and give testimony.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Who said that the witness had been
18 arrested? What is this an objection to? I don't understand this. Did I
19 say the witness had been arrested? I didn't say that. Now, why this
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj, please
22 proceed with your cross-examination.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, it was clear to me in advance that you were going
25 to have major problems, as do other witnesses who refuse to be
1 Prosecution witnesses and ask to be Defence witnesses. I am not in a
2 position to help you in solving these problems or to protect you from
3 here, but what I know from my own experience is that the force of the
4 public is the best protection against such problems.
5 If you're able to, now please focus on my questions.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
7 MS. DAHL: Mr. Seselj is giving advice and information to the
8 witness, rather than asking questions pertinent to the indictment. I'd
9 ask that his cross-examination be focused on the relevant issues and not
10 directed at the witness.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please put your
12 questions to the witness. You said earlier that you were going to put
13 questions to him.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, are you able to answer my specific questions? If
16 not, I will give up my cross-examination right away.
17 A. Well, look here. Even if I were in a much worse physical and
18 psychological state than I am now, I would be able to answer your
19 questions and the questions of the Court. But it's incredible that
20 neither yesterday nor today have I been able to put together a sentence
21 about the situation concerning my family, my property, my very life, but
22 all this is being passed over as if the campaign against me is something
23 that should not be interfered with. That campaign has been transferred
24 to lower-level organs in Serbia
25 or informal para-police groups or para-secret service groups. Well, not
1 for a single moment have I been allowed to say anything, either yesterday
2 or today. I'm being accused of being like this or like that.
3 A woman came to my door unannounced when I was not at home. The
4 police came in the middle of the night, when everybody was getting ready
5 for bed, and I'm not allowed to talk about this. I'm not allowed to tell
6 the reason why I left the party. It began with these staffing solutions,
7 and they said, "Keep quiet. What are you talking about? Answer
8 questions about silly things," about things I never said or signed.
9 Yesterday, I analysed those signatures. They're not my
10 signatures. They were scanned and only copied onto the Serbian language,
11 because when I was signing, there was no translation into Serbian.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, yesterday you,
13 yourself, confirmed that this was, indeed, your signature.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please put
15 questions to the witness to develop your case.
16 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, we are now talking about the method of funding
18 first the Chetnik Movement and then the Serbian Radical Party in 1991 and
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. I asked you whether you were aware of the fact, in 1990, even
22 before you and your party collectively joined the Serbian Chetnik
23 Movement, that I personally funded all the activities of the Serbian
24 Chetnik Movement?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And do you know how I came by the money I used to fund this
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. How?
5 A. From the lectures that you held mostly in Australia and America
6 Q. You know that I gave 97 lectures in Canada, America
8 that two of my books were published abroad, one in Australia and one in
10 A. Yes. Part of that European tour I attended.
11 Q. That was the second tour. We'll come to that.
12 A. Very well.
13 Q. I'm now speaking about the year 1989. Is that an indisputable
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. As we were on good terms and close in those years, you know that
17 all the money I made, I didn't bring back to the homeland with me, that I
18 left some of that money in Canada
19 A. Yes. I remember there was a sum of about $100.000, maybe a
20 little more, maybe a little less.
21 Q. I will be precise. When interest was added, it came to $70.000
22 in a bank in New York
23 The Hague
24 another sum, $15.000, from a bank in California
25 the house in Batajnica.
1 You remember that the two of us together had a tour of Western
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We gave lectures to Serb migrant workers in Austria, Germany
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. We stayed there for longer than a month or a month and a half?
9 A. Forty-four days.
10 Q. And at these lectures, were tickets sold and were donations
11 collected, and were newspapers -- was the newspaper 'Greater Serbia'
12 sold, and were my books sold, and all this went into the party cash box?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you brought a large quantity of cockades which you sold, and
15 this was your personal revenue, because you were unemployed at the time
16 and had no income; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember what sum of money we collected when we came back
19 to the homeland? If you can't remember, I seem to remember that it was
20 47.000 German marks, from different currencies, but that was the total in
21 German marks. Am I right?
22 A. Well, if I give it some thought, I think it was about 47 or
23 48.000 German marks.
24 Q. Was that the first money that we used to finance the Serbian
25 Radical Party in 1992?
1 A. Yes. Immediately upon our arrival, it was set up, and you used
2 that money for that.
3 Q. As the secretary-general, yourself, your basic duty was to
4 collect financial resources for the Serbian Radical Party; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in the Serbian Radical Party, did we pay strict attention to
7 every dinar spent, every dinar coming in and every dinar coming out?
8 A. Yes. Since there weren't many of those dinars, we did pay strict
9 attention to expenditure and incoming financial resources.
10 Q. Did we have two types of record-keeping; one was on the official
11 account of the Serbian Radical Party and the Social Accounting Service,
12 and the other was internal records within the party about the monies
13 coming in?
14 A. Yes, and in the Social Accounting Service account, I had the
15 right to sign for money to be withdrawn.
16 Q. And you did this for the party; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, is it true and correct that we were very strict towards
19 anybody who would try to embezzle even one dinar of party money?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember that Vojin Vuletic, for example, at the end of
22 1992, tried to appropriate 2.000 German marks belonging to the party and
23 that he was uncovered in doing this by Secretary Ducic, and that he had
24 to relinquish all his party posts and give up his work in the party?
25 A. Well, that was 2.200 German marks that an immigrant worker --
1 migrant worker had brought from Berlin
2 And this was written into the book the secretary kept, and when Vojin
3 embezzled this, he rubbed out the part -- the money trail. And when he
4 was uncovered, he tendered his resignation, himself, I think, and then he
5 went off and became a member of the Democratic Party. But soon
6 afterwards, he became ill and then left again.
7 Q. And then Vojin Vuletic attacked us in the media when he left the
8 party; do you remember all that?
9 A. [No verbal response].
10 Q. In the weekly magazine Knin, on television in some newspapers; do
11 you remember that?
12 A. Yes. He moved and joined the Democratic Party.
13 Q. Do you remember that my suggestions were that the attacks
14 launched by Vojin Vuletic, that we should not react to them at all
15 because I knew that he was, in fact, not a well man? So do you remember
16 that we didn't launch counter attacks and didn't respond to those attacks
17 of his, not by a single word?
18 A. Yes, I can confirm that, that despite the attacks that he
19 launched when Vojin Vuletic was hospitalised, when he went to the
20 municipal hospital, that the two of us, and I think somebody else went
21 with us, but, anyway, we went to visit him in hospital, after -- despite
22 those attacks.
23 Q. Vojin Vuletic afterwards died, did he not?
24 A. He was in hospital, he was hospitalised, and, yes, he did die.
25 Q. He suffered from a heart condition; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, do you remember, several years after that, my political
3 adversaries, my political enemies, when they were angry with me, attacked
4 me through the media and said that I had liquidated Vojin Vuletic; do you
5 remember that?
6 A. Yes, I do. I do remember that, yes.
7 Q. Yesterday, you were talking about the killing of Pasko Jovic, who
8 is the wife of Slobodan Jovic; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, did we throw Slobodan Jovic out of the Serbian Radical Party
11 already in 1993 and justified doubts that he was working for the
12 Security Service of Serbia
13 A. Yes. Before he came to the Serbian Radical Party, he was an
14 active member of the Serbian Security Service. He was sent abroad to
15 carry out liquidations of our political enemies. And we did not know all
16 this before he became a member, but when we did learn about his past,
17 I think it was in 1993 -- maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, to be quite frank, he
18 was a man who had a very negative past and was ready to do anything. He
19 had very little education, although he did have some diploma or other
20 saying that he had graduated from, I think, the Engineering Faculty, but
21 in fact he was ready to take on anything.
22 And later on -- I don't think you know this, but in 2000 -- or,
23 rather, from 1999 to the year 2000, he showed his true colours, and I
24 felt them on my very own skin. We were attending the party Saint's Day,
25 and his party was the Nikolic Pasic Radical Party, I believe. Anyway, in
1 the presence of my party colleagues, Miloje Mikisevicevic [phoen] and
2 Mladen Bakic, in the presence of a large number of people from the very
3 top positions of the DB Serbia, he said very ugly things about you. And
4 then at one point, after having a brandy to drink, he started attacking
5 me, too, and it was all I could do to escape that.
6 Q. Well, we'll have to cut that story short, the story about him.
7 But what is interesting here and what it says in the alleged statement
8 written by the Prosecution, which they say you signed, is -- refers to
9 the killing of his wife. He had a very beautiful young wife, did he not,
10 and she owned a bookstore somewhere in Rakovica; right?
11 A. Well, yes, it was near my flat, and I explained that yesterday.
12 After the statement, I conducted a detailed investigation.
13 Q. We don't have to repeat that. We heard what you said yesterday.
14 I remembered it all, so we needn't go into that again. But what I'm
15 concerned about is this: Do you remember that for the first time, this
16 man, Slobodan Jovic, for whom we know without doubt that he worked for
17 the Security Service, during the silence prior to the elections, at the
18 elections -- presidential elections in 1997, when I was a candidate who
19 entered into the second circle, second round, that he published, in a
20 daily paper called 'The Daily Telegraph,' on half a page, which was a
21 violation of all the electoral laws, that I had killed his wife, and is
22 that the first time he came out with that assertion?
23 A. Now, I would be lying if I said I knew exactly when that
24 happened, but I know an article appeared in the 'Sunday Telegraph,' but I
25 don't know -- or 'Nedelja Telegraph,' but I don't know but I don't know
1 when that was, whether it was the pre-electoral campaign or the silence
2 before the elections.
3 Q. All right. If you don't know for sure, we can move on.
4 Now, Mr. Stefanovic, was I ever known as a greedy man; greedy,
5 wealth, money, luxury living? Was that something that I was known for?
6 A. I always said how reticent you were and how you didn't like
7 spending money, and in fact you preferred to take your meals at home
8 rather than spend money in restaurants and so on.
9 Q. So what you're saying is that I led a modest life; is that right?
10 A. Yes, very modest. You wouldn't flaunt your money around. You
11 were frugal.
12 Q. Did I ever drive expensive cars or have any other luxuries,
13 luxury items?
14 A. As far as I know, no.
15 Q. And is that how -- the spirit in which I led the party, too, that
16 the party should be frugal, save money, keep a strict reign on money and
17 just use it for actual party needs?
18 A. While I was there, yes, that is true.
19 Q. Now, could anybody ever bribe me, a politician or some newfangled
20 tycoon or anybody like that? Was I susceptible to bribery, was I greedy
21 in any way?
22 A. No, and I can even quote examples. When somebody tried to do
23 something like that, that they were publicly held to task.
24 Q. And when Zoran Djindjic forced you to give your statement to
25 The Hague
1 one of the forms of that political discreditation, pursuant to his
2 suggestions, was to show me up to be as a greedy man who loved money more
3 than his family and his party; isn't that right?
4 A. Well, it's like this: There's my statement. I went there
5 contrary to my -- against my own will to give this statement to The Hague
6 Tribunal. I don't know what was awaiting me there. I thought that they
7 would hide things or -- I don't know. I resisted. This went on for two
8 or three days, this resistance on my part, but they had focused on me so
9 strongly that I had to give in. And the last conversation that I had,
10 and I'm sure there's a witness of that, I was asked whether there was
11 written trace of that, there's oral trace, because I went there with
12 Mr. Batic, who at that time was the minister, and I asked for Mr. Batic's
13 protection because I said I simply didn't want to appear in the Hague
14 Tribunal, not because of Seselj, not because of who knows what, but
15 because of me, personally, because if I did that, I would slam the doors
16 to my political activity by doing that. It's what I live on. I have
17 dealt in politics for 20 years. And he said, "Well, if Zoran promised
18 you that you needn't appear, then why would you? And you know what the
19 role of Carla Del Ponte was; not only the influence on the DOS, but on
20 the 5th of October preparations and so on." And then as I was well aware
21 of all those things, I agreed to talk to them.
22 But this has turned into a never-ending set of games, and when I
23 was thinking of this -- conducting this discrimination in the proper way,
24 in a very correct way, then I had to use some political tricks. I had to
25 resort to political ruse and say that the man was greedy.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
2 MS. DAHL: I would like to remind the witness that he is under
3 oath and can be prosecuted for perjury.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are under oath.
5 You know better than anyone that you could be prosecuted for perjury.
6 You know that, don't you? So are you telling the truth right now?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please explain to me why the
8 Prosecutor -- Madam Prosecutor doubts that I'm telling the truth. Why is
9 that? Where does she feel that that has been the case?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to explain to you
12 I have before me a statement which you gave in 2003, and you
13 repeated it in 2006. And in that statement, you said that Mr. Seselj was
14 more interested in money than in politics. That's what you stated then.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And "more than his family," that's
16 what it says there too.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, "family" too, I saw that,
19 what you stated, and you added "or your family," but that's secondary.
20 I'm interested in the money matter.
21 And then Mr. Seselj asked you questions as to the financing of
22 the SRS
23 by the product of lectures he gave throughout the world. And you know
24 that there are bank accounts abroad, into which the outcome of the
25 lectures might have been transferred.
1 So with regard to what you said in 2003 and 2006, there is an
2 inconsistency with regard to your statement now, and the Prosecutor
3 recalls you that if you were to say something that is not true, you can
4 be prosecuted for perjury.
5 You are under oath, so I'm asking you whether you are telling the
6 truth now. Can you confirm that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I'm saying now,
8 I'm saying under oath, and it's absolutely the truth. The statement
9 given -- well, I wasn't under oath then, I hadn't taken the solemn
10 declaration then when I wrote the statement. So please believe me when I
11 say that this was geared towards discrediting Mr. Vojislav Seselj, so
12 that statement was just given for those reasons exclusively.
13 Now, I am under oath, I am telling the truth. We can look at the
14 SD -- the accounts, we can go through the accounts and see where all
15 these accounts are, all the cash inflow and expenditures, and things like
16 that, the monies spent on television programmes, advertisements,
17 pamphlets and so on. We have the SDK, Social Accounting Service,
18 accounts, and we also have our own records in the notebooks that we kept.
19 We can go through all that.
20 And I am telling the truth.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We know that you say you're
22 telling the truth, Witness.
23 Very well. Proceed, Mr. Seselj.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I think that we've dealt with the question of financing, then.
1 I'd just like to focus on a number of details still.
2 Do you remember that when the political parties in Serbia were
3 being formed, that the pro-Western political parties were financed from
4 abroad by different governmental and nongovernmental organisations; do
5 you remember that?
6 A. Yes, but not our party. Our party wasn't financed that way.
7 Q. The Socialist Party and Kindred Parties, the League of Communist
8 Movement for Yugoslavia
9 disposal all these states institutions, did they not?
10 A. They had firms within the state.
11 Q. The Serbian Radical Party, did it ever have any large sponsor or
12 financier who, for example, in the space of one year, provided it with a
13 sum larger than 10.000 German marks, for instance, some financier or
14 company or whatever? Can you quote any such example or any such case?
15 A. I know full well how I collected money, that it was very arduous
16 and it was difficult to make ends meet, and the expenditure was always
17 greater than the money coming in. It was difficult. There was the
18 financing of the Greater Serbia for posters. I gave 50.000 to Tijanic,
19 for instance, when he was director of TV Politika, and then Studio B,
20 Stojdinovic [phoen], just for one campaign, and that was in 1993;
21 December, in fact. Or 1994, perhaps. I'm not quite sure.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the
23 witness, Mr. Seselj.
24 At the time you were secretary-general of the Serbian Radical
25 Party, does that mean that you could control its budget? Was that part
1 of your remit?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was like this: Not only did I
3 have authority to control it, but I was the number-one man for collecting
4 money, so I had to go around. I kept the treasury, I was in charge of
5 the treasury, and so on.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. You're going to
7 see why I'm raising this issue.
8 Witness --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Realtime translation
10 continues] ... deposited at the Social Accounting Service. It was the
11 only signature deposited there, which meant that I could withdraw money
12 on the basis of that signature.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we heard a witness who
14 was a member of the Serb Radical Party, and he said the following: I say
15 this from memory, because I don't have the transcript before me, but this
16 question just crossed my mind. But I know the case file inside out, so
17 I can make a reference to it without having the transcript in front of
19 That witness explained to us that it would happen that the SRS
20 would send some of its men, volunteers, for them to guard plants,
21 factories. He mentioned the guarding of a factory which gave rise to
22 donations, sums of money, for the SRS
23 accounts. You've just confirmed that.
24 Do you have any memory, any recollection, of the SRS receiving
25 monies from companies as part of surveillance activity by SRS volunteers?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a very good question,
2 Mr. President. Bring that witness into the courtroom here so that he can
3 face me. Who is this witness that says things like that, and who made
4 him say things like that? That's all lies, and I say that with full
6 I have taken the solemn declaration here. I'm a Christian. I
7 never lie. So, Your Honour, you are dealing with a man here who does not
8 lie, who never lies.
9 So that man was saying ludicrous things. He was telling
10 untruths. And for as long as I've been a Radical, I've never accepted
11 money from any companies. What companies, what guarding of factories,
12 what's he all about? That's just not true. Bring him in here so that he
13 can face me, and you can close the session.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stefanovic, that as the secretary-general of
16 the Serbian Radical Party in those years, you travelled to Australia and
17 spent a month there collecting donations for the party?
18 A. Yes. I was there for about two and a half months.
19 Q. Well, in my recollection, it was a month, but all right. Do you
20 remember that you brought from Australia
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That's how much you managed to collect. Do you remember the
23 largest amount you collected at one of your tours? This was during the
24 pre-election campaign in 1993, when you came back from Berlin. Do you
25 remember the sum you brought to the party treasury? What was the sum? I
1 don't want to put leading questions to you. Do you recall that?
2 A. I know I gave all the money to Tijanic. I can't recall the
3 precise amount, but I know I travelled from Berlin to Budapest
4 and then as there were no planes flying to Belgrade, I came from Budapest
5 to Belgrade
6 over the money. I can't remember the amount and the year. It's hard for
7 me to remember those figures.
8 Q. Let me jog your memory. You brought 50.000 German marks back
9 from Berlin
10 the television, and we went to 'Politika,' and we bought ads and we
11 bought time, air time, for our broadcasts. And that was a time of huge
12 inflation, comparable to that in Weimarkt Germany; is that correct?
13 A. I remember that the money I brought back did not cover those two
14 television broadcasts. I know that we had to add more money to those
15 50.000 marks.
16 Q. And do you remember how surprised they were in the 'Politika' TV
17 when we brought various currencies; German marks, French francs, Swiss
18 francs, Italian lira, Austrian shillings, Danish crowns, Swedish crowns.
19 What else was there?
20 A. Dutch guilders.
21 Q. And, yes, Greek drachmas. Do you remember that we brought along
22 various currencies to pay for those TV broadcasts?
23 A. Whatever was in the treasury, we brought along.
24 Q. Did we always go together when those payments were made and those
25 contracts concluded?
1 A. Yes, and I carried the money.
2 Q. Well, you were at that time the most reliable man for money.
3 A. Well, I -- I was strong enough to carry the bag.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stefanovic. We won't talk about finances anymore.
5 So that was the first form of my political discreditation on
6 which Zoran Djindjic insisted. His aim was to eliminate me completely
7 from the political life of Serbia
8 A. Yes. In 2001, I personally proposed, because they kept saying
9 that the Serb Radical Party was upsetting democracy, the young democracy,
10 the fledgling democracy in Serbia
11 the proposal that the state prosecutor ban the work of the Serbian
12 Radical Party by a decree. And then a group of legal experts was
13 established, which was supposed to draw up a text which would be sent to
14 the prosecutor, and I think that this text was compiled referring to
15 certain provisions of the Constitution and the various laws, I don't know
16 what. And then they evaluated, and this was not something I wanted. I
17 would have passed that law, but they said that it would be no good, that
18 you would continue your work in other ways, that you would work
19 underground, that you would continue your opposition work by other means.
20 And someone from the top leadership of the state gave up this idea, and
21 then they tried to eliminate you in other ways.
22 There were some conversations which I heard with my own ears,
23 where it was said that the Radical Party should not be interfered with,
24 that it was sufficient to remove Seselj; that some foreign intelligence
25 organisations were already influencing the Radical Party. And a year and
1 a half or five years ago, I said that to some members of your party. I
2 said that in 2003.
3 There was an instructor called Steve or Steven, an American
4 intelligence agent, who was brought by Zoran Korac to his flat, and
5 before the elections for the mayor of Belgrade, they simulated a
6 scenario. Zoran Korac pretended to be the television announcer, and this
7 Steven, who was a drug addict and a homosexual and who was later found
8 dead in a hotel, he pretended to be Bogdanovic. What was his name, Nenad
9 Bogdanovic. And they did a role play, simulating the television
10 broadcast that Vucic was supposed to have with Bogdanovic.
11 I drew the attention of some people in the top party leadership
12 to this, but they didn't pay much attention to it.
13 Later on, foreign intelligence services exerted influence. When
14 a group of the Serbian Radical Party went to Strasbourg, to the European
15 Parliament, and then I had clear information as to who, when and was
16 having meetings when they went to in Strasbourg. Foreign intelligence
17 agents meant them there. Among them, Mr. Nikolic was recruited by a
18 intelligence agency. So it wasn't just our own state security service
19 that took part in Vukic and Nikolic's new political party.
20 I was well informed. Mr. Seselj, you have not been in Serbia
21 several years, and you don't have the best information.
22 Yesterday, I saw how wrong you were when you put forward the
23 information about those three agents in Pristina. You don't know that
1 intelligence structures contacted Germany, and they want to expel America
2 from its influence in Kosovo. They want Germany back there.
3 You know that for a long time, there's been a love affair between
5 Q. Well, Mr. Witness, we won't deal with geopolitical topics now,
6 because my time is running out, and I doubt that this time the Chamber
7 will extend my time. I would like to ask you to focus on more specific
9 When did you first learn that an indictment was being prepared
10 against me in The Hague
11 were in the very top leadership there, and you probably had this
13 A. I was in the top political leadership in DOS, and there were many
14 people there who were very inexperienced. They had never been in
15 Parliament before, and I had good contacts with Zoran Djindjic, the
16 prime minister, because his sister, Slavica, who was married in my
17 village, the last name was Filipovic. And I visited his uncle Dusanic in
19 And you, yourself, know that in 1990, while Zoran was still
20 wearing a ponytail and earring and jeans, that we were on good terms with
21 him. For a long time, this went on.
22 They rejected my idea which I still say would have been better
23 had the Serbian Radical Party been banned in 2001, and the Socialist
24 Party as well. They would have been eliminated from the political scene
25 for a few years. But they took power and they, themselves, drowned in
1 that power.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping. It's impossible
3 to interpret.
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. What year was that?
6 A. In 2002.
7 Q. Very well. This was quite some time before I went to The Hague
8 The indictment against me was brought in mid-February 2003, and I heard
9 that on the 25th of January, 2003, that's when I heard about the
11 Did you hear about it before I did, and how long before?
12 A. Well, I believe I heard about it in 2002.
13 Q. Very well. I have a newspaper text here. Could the Registrar
14 please put it on the ELMO. I had it photocopied previously. I also had
15 copies made for the Prosecution and the Chamber. This is a newspaper
16 article I found last night when I got back to my prison cell, and it's
17 from a newspaper published in Frankfurt
18 You're aware there's a newspaper called 'Vesti' published in
20 A. I know the owner, Vidakovic.
21 Q. Well, that journal has been publishing a series,
22 Tomislav Nikolic's confessions. And I got hold of this article which was
23 published on the 21st of November, so let's see what Tomislav Nikolic
24 said when Djindjic told him that an indictment was being prepared against
1 Can this be put on the ELMO and can Mr. Stefanovic see this in
3 A. I have the text before me. Just telling if that's it: "The
4 killer changed his mind." "The would-be killer changed his mind."
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl .
6 MS. DAHL: This document is not readily accessible to either the
7 Prosecution or the Chamber because it is not in a working language. And
8 I also question the relevance of the information -- that the witness can
9 be asked questions and give answers regarding his knowledge.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as to the
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I ask that the
13 original be given back to me so that I can use it. It's relevant because
14 it refers to what the witness is now talking about.
15 The witness is talking about the role of Zoran Djindjic, who
16 tried to recruit him to be a Prosecution witness against me, whereas
17 Tomislav Nikolic, in this article, says that Zoran Djindjic informed him
18 that an indictment against me was being prepared. And I'll read the
19 relevant part of the text to you now.
20 MS. DAHL: [Previous translation continues]... test the witness's
21 knowledge and understanding of facts relevant to the indictment. I
22 object to Mr. Seselj reading a newspaper article to the witness, thereby
23 giving the witness an opportunity to adopt information in a newspaper
24 article. The point of cross-examination is to test the witness's own
25 knowledge, not to feed him information to regurgitate.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I don't have the
2 limitations that the Prosecution has in the examination-in-chief. I'm
3 allowed to put leading questions.
4 And I obtained this information only last night. You can check
5 whether this issue of 'Vesti' was distributed to us last night. It was
6 distributed in the prison yesterday, because it arrives with a delay. I
7 saw this last night. I tore it out of the newspaper and brought it here.
8 This is something very important for me. I could not have handed it over
9 or disclosed it earlier.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you know very well
11 that this is not the first time this issue has been raised.
12 The article is in Serbian, in Cyrillic. We're not familiar with
13 that language, unfortunately. So you could very well ask your questions
14 based on your reading of the article, but you are trying to know what the
15 witness can say to your questions, but without him reading the article.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. My fellow Judge has just
17 said how you should go about it. Just say to the witness, "Here's an
18 article. It was published in Germany
19 following was said in that article." You can sum it up very quickly, and
20 thereafter you can ask your question.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have the right to
22 quote a few articles from this article. I have no intention of reading
23 the entire article.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may quote a few sentences,
25 but please try to be as short as possible. We don't want to spend too
1 much time on an article which has not been translated for us. My fellow
2 Judge has just mentioned it.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's impossible for
4 you to have this in translation. That's a force majeure. I have marked
5 the sentences I intend to quote.
6 First, you see the paragraph before the last. Tomislav Nikolic
7 says -- he says that he and Djindjic were in a specific sort of
8 friendship and that they treated each other correctly, and that Djindjic,
9 at the bar in the Republican Assembly, where they were having tea, said
10 to him that an indictment against Seselj was being prepared. And he says
11 that he told me that right away, but I know that's not correct.
12 Tomislav Nikolic never told me that Djindjic had told him that an
13 indictment against me was being prepared. Tomislav Nikolic confirms that
14 he knew that an indictment against me was being prepared and that
15 Zoran Djindjic told him about that personally.
16 Q. What do you think about that, Mr. Stefanovic?
17 A. I think that Tomislav Nikolic is right. I think that either Cedo
18 or Djindjic told him that.
19 Q. Well, first it was Cedo and then it was Djindjic?
20 A. Yes, yes. I know that they had a specific sort of relationship,
21 a special relationship, and Nikolic -- what Nikolic says here, that's
23 Q. Does that mean that Zoran Djindjic was already preparing the
24 ground before I left for The Hague
1 A. Yes. As I've already said in my testimony, the entire
2 Radical Party did not have to be eliminated. They said that only
3 Vojislav Seselj had to be eliminated. That's what I heard.
4 Q. And then they could deal with the party easily; was that the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you hear that recently Tomislav Nikolic accused me of
8 having ordered his murder, commissioned his murder?
9 A. Yes, Tomislav Nikolic said something about Ruma.
10 Q. And there was a big public outcry about what he said, and then
11 some restrictions were put on my telephone calls here. And now
12 Tomislav Nikolic is denying that. He says that he had a clear signal
13 about a possible assassination, and that's in the second passage. And he
14 says it was not prepared by Vojislav Seselj, "but he spoke so badly about
15 me in The Hague
16 could have said, 'Let's go and liquidate that traitor.'"
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
18 MS. DAHL: This question has no relevance to the witness's fund
19 of knowledge.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, originally
21 Mr. Stefanovic's statement was compiled so as to depict my character in
22 the blackest possible colours. I was the person who called Pasko Jovic,
23 and then I had Vojin Vuletic killed, and the Prosecution has a witness
24 they haven't called yet who will say that, and now Tomislav Nikolic says
25 I ordered his murder. So I'm constantly commissioning assassinations,
1 and no one can prove that I have any links to those. And here
2 Tomislav Nikolic denies that it was I who commissioned his murder, and
3 you here are convinced that I did. I could feel that in the courtroom
5 And now I would like to continue.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please ask your question to the
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, did I ever engage in any type of business?
10 A. Except for politics, unless you -- is lecturing at university a
12 Q. I didn't ask you whether I was employed. But was I a capitalist
13 and engaged in any kind of business undertakings? That's what I meant.
14 A. No.
15 Q. The other way to discredit me, on the basis of what
16 Zoran Djindjic said, was to link you up with Slobodan Milosevic and
17 Jovica Stanisic as much as possible; right?
18 A. Yes, and the DB.
19 Q. Yes, and the State Security Service of Serbia. Well, in what the
20 Prosecution has presented here as being your statement, it says that you
21 allegedly said that I had excellent contacts with Slobodan Milosevic and
22 the structures of the State Security Service, including Jovica Stanisic.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Dahl.
24 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but I wish to put on
25 the record that Judge Lattanzi has left the courtroom and ask whether a
1 break would be appropriate or if her absence will be extended.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We may proceed without her.
3 This is provided for by the Rules.
4 Mr. Seselj, you may proceed.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you know, Mr. Stefanovic, when I first met Slobodan Milosevic?
7 A. Well, I -- if you want the time, the period, it was sometime in
8 1992, mid-1992, I think. I don't know.
9 Q. I'll tell you in detail. We met briefly in the Republican
10 Assembly sometime in April 1992, and we just became acquainted and shook
11 hands. And then in May 1992, Slobodan Milosevic called me for the first
12 time to come to his offices and to talk to him. Am I telling the truth?
13 A. Yes, but that conversation was an official talk because it was
14 with respect to the establishment of the federal Parliament. That's what
15 it was linked to.
16 Q. It had to do with the first federal elections in Yugoslavia, the
17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You should know, I think, that my political adversaries and
20 enemies, the pro-Western media, on several occasions launched strong
21 campaigns against me; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In those campaigns, did they use the worst possible lies and
24 inventions, fabrications?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was it possible at all for me to respond to each of those
2 newspaper articles or information put out on the radio or television
3 about me? Was that feasible?
4 A. It was impossible, even if you formed a team.
5 Q. Do you remember that I collected all those worst attacks against
6 me and published them in special collections of documents attached to my
7 books? Do you remember I did that and that I was very fastidious in
8 doing that?
9 A. Yes. Katarina Ducic was in charge in the party with her daughter
10 in collecting all these newspaper clippings and any footage in the media
11 about you and so on and so forth.
12 Q. Zorica Zirovic was there, too, and a number of other party
13 activists engaged in that. But not Zorica; Nada Zirovic. Do you
14 remember her?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right, fine. Now, I was accused of committing crimes, too,
17 engaging in crimes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And could anybody ever link me to any crime?
20 A. Well, I would say no, I had no knowledge or awareness that you
21 engaged in any kind of criminal activity at all.
22 Q. Do you remember that in 1990, I was in Milosevic's prison three
24 A. Whether you were just taken into custody or put into prison.
25 Q. It was like this: In 1990, in September, for 15 days in Padinska
1 Skela, because of my demonstrations in front of the National Assembly,
2 then for 20 days because of a rally on Republic Square, then 25 days for
3 another rally, a repeated rally. Do you remember that you came to visit
4 me in prison in Padinska Skela at that time?
5 A. At the end of those 25 days, you didn't want to leave the prison
6 five days early, and they forced you to leave. You didn't want to be
7 released. You took it to the end.
8 Q. Our party wasn't registered, and while I was in prison, you
9 personally organised a collection of signatures --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
11 Mr. Seselj, you raised a very relevant issue with respect to the
12 indictment, and I would like to ask the witness to confirm that point for
14 Witness, in the indictment, it is stated that Mr. Seselj took
15 part in a joint criminal enterprise as of the 1st of August, 1991
16 December -- or, rather, September 1993. Mr. Seselj asked you when he
17 first met with Mr. Milosevic. I understand that you stated that it
18 happened mid-1992. Could you be extremely specific and tell me when, to
19 your knowledge, Mr. Seselj met with the late Slobodan Milosevic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be very precise in answering
22 That first meeting, I know from what Seselj said. He said, "You
23 know what? Today --" he was a deputy in the Parliament. Milosevic
24 happened to be there for some reason. I wasn't a deputy, so I wasn't
25 there, myself. But I remember him saying that he came and said -- we
1 have a joke that we say "Pinky saw Tito," and he said, "Well, I
2 saw Milosevic for the first time today." Seselj never went alone to see
3 Milosevic. He was always accompanied by someone from the party, he
4 always took someone from the party with him, so that whether it was one
5 day earlier or later, but the elections were held in May 1992, and he
6 contacted him with respect to an official meeting between the head of
7 state and the head of a party.
8 And I remember that on the 11th of June, I think it was, in the
9 federal Assembly, that Slobodan Milosevic turned up and that the two of
10 us were standing there together. Seselj and myself were standing
11 together. Slobodan Milosevic came up to us, who had just entered the
12 building, entered the hall, and he greeted him, and then for the first
13 time with me, and said, "Good morning, Mr. Stefanovic." I didn't think
14 he knew me, but he did know me. He knew my name and everything, and I
15 was surprised by that.
16 So that's what I know about that.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, Witness. What you're
18 saying is of great relevance.
19 If I understand correctly, on the 11th of June, 1992,
20 Mr. Milosevic came up to you, called you by your name and shook your
21 hand. You were quite surprised. And he also shook the hand of
22 Mr. Seselj. At the time, you were very close to Mr. Seselj. Can you
23 tell us if, before that time, Mr. Seselj had already seen Mr. Milosevic,
24 or was it the first time?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He'd seen him before that. And
1 according to what he told me, the story he told me, he came from the
2 Republican Parliament, where he was the only deputy of the Serbian
3 Radical Party. And he said --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When exactly did he see him?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the date, but before
6 that, several months before.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Several months
8 before. In any case, when Mr. Seselj testifies later, I'll ask the
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, do you know when I met Jovica Stanisic for the
13 first time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well, I'll remind you. It was sometime in November 1992. There
16 was a meeting of the Republican Parliament, and a deputy from the ruling
17 Socialist Party came and said to me, "The head of the State Security
18 Service, Jovica Stanisic, would like to have a meeting with you." I
19 agreed, and he told me to go out in front of the Republican Parliament
20 meeting and that Jovica Stanisic would come by in his own car. And
21 that's what I did, I went outside. And several minutes later, a luxury
22 car with dark windows drove up. The back door opened, I got in, and
23 Jovica Stanisic shook hands with me.
24 Did I tell you about that meeting of ours? And Jovica Stanisic
25 on that occasion informed me that in Montenegro
1 me was being prepared, whereas I had planned to go to Montenegro for the
2 pre-electoral campaign. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes. I didn't think you should go to Montenegro.
4 Q. And do you remember that I could not travel anyway because I had
5 severe back pains, and I wasn't even able to stand on my own two feet
6 during the election campaign, and on the election day I had a spine
7 operation; do you remember that?
8 A. Yes. It was Sunday, the 19th of December, 1992, in the morning.
9 I went to the clinic where I operated discus hernia and I prepared -- or
10 you did, and I prepared the elections in the party premises, and I wasn't
11 able to go and visit you either that day or the next day because I was
12 absolutely inundated with work. I remember that very well, and I
13 remember the date very well, and the diagnosis, discus hernia. Is that
15 Q. Well, I suppose it is. Now, do you know when I met
16 Frenki Simatovic, Frenki, for the first time in my life?
17 A. I don't know that. I met him two years ago.
18 Q. Well, I met him earlier on, and I'll disclose that secret to you.
19 I met him in 2003, when Franko Simatovic, Frenki, was first brought to
20 The Hague
21 believe me?
22 A. Yes, Frenki Simatovic told me that, too. Yes, I do believe you.
23 Q. All right, fine. Now, they ascribed to you that you had said the
24 following: "I'm convinced, although I can't prove it, that Seselj was
25 the executor of orders given by Milosevic." That is a sentence to be
1 found in paragraph 20 of your alleged statement given in 2006. Did you
2 indeed tell The Hague
3 A. Well, nobody wanted to note down what I was saying about
4 paragraph 21 and 26, but it's the same thing there. I never saw my
5 statement, as I said yesterday. I asked at least ten times for the
6 Tribunal to send me the statement in written form. I never received the
7 statement, and it was -- I saw those pages for the first time yesterday,
8 and these numbered paragraphs. I never gave a statement in the form of
9 numbered paragraphs. That's quite unusual. So it's something that I
10 cannot link to logic.
11 And I just read points 21 and 26, 062436 is the document number,
12 and that particular paragraph says that Frenki Simatovic did something.
13 I don't remember what. But in paragraph 26, it says that your political
14 advisers, or whoever, Professor Marjanovic and Mika Sprajc --
15 Q. Just a moment. Do you deny having said this to The Hague
16 Tribunal, that I was the executor of orders given by Milosevic? Let's
17 take this one by one. Is that what you said? Do you deny it?
18 A. I deny it.
19 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stefanovic, at the elections in December
20 1992, the Serbian Radical Party became invigorated and we came -- became
21 the second-strongest political party in Serbia; do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, 73 deputies.
23 Q. And the Republican government could not be formed without us;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you also remember that the two of us, you and I, went together
2 to conduct negotiations with the leadership of the Socialist Party, to
3 their headquarters in that skyscraper building at the Usce in Belgrade
4 the former Central Committee building?
5 A. Yes, Central Committee building, twelfth floor.
6 Q. Do you remember that Milo Minic, Nikola Sainovic, and somebody
7 else of the Socialists greeted us there?
8 A. There was Bata Zivojinovic and Aleksandar Bercejg [phoen]. They
9 were actors; right?
10 Q. Do you remember that those functionaries of the Socialist Party
11 offered us to form a coalition government with them, made that offer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you remember that I persistently rejected any kind of
14 coalition, but I said that we Radicals would agree to support a minority
15 government on condition that that government pull the country out of the
16 economic crisis and social poverty; do you remember that?
17 A. Yes, yes, I do.
18 Q. Now, afterwards, did we support the minority government, that is
19 to say, the Socialist Party government?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And six months later, did we start toppling the government, since
22 inflation had soared, poverty had soared, and the economic situation had,
23 in fact, worsened?
24 A. Yes. After that, when we started toppling the government, there
25 was a terrible attack by the Socialist Party or, rather, the parent
1 authorities against the Radicals. They launched an all-out attack, and
2 the papers buzzed with all this, and as did all the other information
3 media, who had very negative comments to make about the Radicals. So
4 there was an all-out campaign, an avalanche against us.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, here again we are
6 dealing with a point of paramount importance. We need, therefore, to be
7 extremely precise and not to make any mistakes.
8 You are challenging these statements that were taken in 2003 and
9 2006. You have explained to us why you challenge these statements. In
10 this statement, it is stated that Slobodan Milosevic, together with
11 Simatovic and Stanisic, controlled the Serbian Radical Party. That's
12 written in black and white in this statement at paragraph 21 and at
13 paragraph 20. And through the questions put to you, we find out that at
14 some point in time, there was a meeting with the members of the Socialist
15 Party with a view to establishing an alliance with that party. And in
16 response to a question just put to you by Mr. Seselj, you've just stated
17 that Mr. Seselj has refused any kind of alliance, and that's where we
18 have a problem.
19 If what is stated at paragraph 20 and 21 is true, we do not quite
20 understand why Mr. Seselj would have been opposed to this alliance. If
21 he was against such an idea during that meeting, then that means that
22 what is stated at paragraph 20 and 21 is not true.
23 Sir, can you confirm that you attended a meeting that took place
24 with Mr. Seselj, yourself and members of the Socialist Party, with a view
25 to creating an alliance, and that Mr. Seselj rejected that idea?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll present two or
2 three facts that can be borne out by people who are still alive and well
3 and living in Belgrade
4 I don't know whether Mr. Seselj remembers, but as a mark of
5 goodwill, a gesture of goodwill, they prepared some cakes for us, some
6 cream puffs. Well, there were no cream puffs or eclairs, so they brought
7 some other type of cake I can't remember what it was called. Anyway, I
8 remember something full well, and I don't think you know that today or
9 knew it then, but when I went in to the other office, I was received by
10 Zoran Andjelkovic, who was a high-ranking official of theirs at the time
11 and today too, and we conducted a conversation in which he tried to
12 persuade me to wield my influence on you to agree to form a coalition
13 government and that he tried to recruit me by promising me a good
14 position in that government, me and some others. And I said I did not
15 wish to discuss the matter on my own or secretly. But I remember the
16 conversation full well, and I remember you saying to Minic, since Minic
17 was from my area and a school friend of mine, that if you cease to
18 negotiate with them, that there'll be a much more radical stream who
19 wouldn't want to give their support even to a minority government. So
20 they agreed to your -- what you were offering him.
21 So those are the details of that meeting. The meeting was held
22 on the 12th in the former CK building, Central Committee building, with
23 those eclairs and some Coca-Cola. And in addition to Minic, who was
24 sitting there at the meeting, there was also Bercejg and Bata
25 Zivojinovic, two actors. But Zoran Andjelkovic was sitting opposite
1 them, and as I say, he conducted this conversation which you don't know
2 about, which you've never heard about before today. He wanted -- he
3 offered me a place in the government and said that we'd be given some
4 important posts.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've provided a
6 wealth of information with respect to the cakes and everything about this
7 meeting, but what was the date of that meeting, if you remember?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to answer that,
9 Your Honour. You know what? I have a different approach to matters. I
10 don't tend to remember dates, telephone numbers, people's names. I don't
11 think that's important. So if you're asking about -- if there's a date
12 concerned, I write it down in my notebook, I record it in some way. So I
13 don't know years or dates, but it was about 10 to 15 days after the
14 elections. That is to say, it would be logical that it was, if you
15 worked it out and calculated it, it would be between the two Christmases,
16 that is to say, the 7th or 10th or 15th of January, 1994.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good. Mr. Seselj.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stefanovic, after we tabled a request to
20 topple -- overthrow the Socialist government, that the Socialist Party
21 issued a proclamation that was published quite literally in all the media
22 of Serbia
23 to me as a war criminal, a criminal, a madman and an alcoholic? Do you
24 remember that?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. But they never managed to prove that I was a war criminal, did
3 A. That's correct. I can talk about that. That had to do with
4 attempts to have you come to The Hague and face the then Prosecutor. It
5 was a woman. I'm not sure what her name was, Louise Arbour or something
6 like that. And then through some embassies in Belgrade, because the
7 Dutch wouldn't let you enter the country, they wouldn't give you a
8 visa --
9 Q. When the regime in Serbia
10 immediately express my willingness to go to The Hague, and did I ask for
11 a Dutch visa so I could travel there; is that true?
12 A. Well, that's just what I'm talking about now, and the Netherlands
13 refused to issue a visa to you.
14 Q. Had they issued me with a visa, I would have arrived in The Hague
15 in 1993, and I would have said, "Well, if you have something against me,
16 here I am." Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did I say that for all the media?
19 A. Yes. I'll tell you another detail. I don't know if I told you
20 about it at the time, but I happened to be in the writers' club. I was
21 having dinner with second secretary of the German embassy in Belgrade
22 Lilke [phoen], and I asked him whether Seselj could get a German visa,
23 because you could use that visa to enter the Netherlands. And he said --
24 when a woman working in the Dutch embassy came along, I didn't know her,
25 and this Lilke, who was the second secretary of the German embassy, said
1 to her, "What sort of behaviour is that? You're not brave enough to
2 issue Seselj with a visa so he can go and face the Tribunal, but we
3 Germans are willing to issue him with a visa." I don't know what the
4 woman answered. He didn't tell me the entire conversation, but that
5 confirms what you're saying.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's a quarter to 4.00. We
8 need to have a break now.
9 One practical question. Tomorrow, we are going to be sitting in
10 the morning at 8.30, instead of in the afternoon. The Registrar will
11 take all the necessary steps for that. If needed, we may be working
12 until 1.45 tomorrow, because we have two more witnesses to hear tomorrow.
13 But now we're going to have a 20-minute break for the
14 continuation of the cross-examination.
15 Madam Registrar, please tell me how much time there is left.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's just what I was going to
17 ask. How much time do I have left?
18 And another thing, Mr. President. Of course, I can always adapt
19 to the time, but if the Registry can suggest that my transport be at a
20 quarter to 8.00. If it's earlier than that, I have to ask the guards to
21 unlock my cell earlier, because I need at least 45 minutes to get ready,
22 to take a shower, to shave and so on.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. The legal officer will
24 make the necessary arrangements.
25 Mr. Seselj, you've used one hour and ten minutes. You have 50
1 minutes left after the break.
2 Let's have a 20-minute break.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
6 Mr. Seselj, you have 50 minutes left. You may proceed.
7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, there are two short questions I don't want to
9 forget in connection with something we spoke about earlier.
10 We mentioned cockades. You took those cockades when we went on
11 tour and sold them. Did the Serb Radical Party ever manufacture its own
12 Chetnik cockades or did we, like other citizens, buy these cockades on
13 street stalls in the center of Belgrade
14 A. The Radical Party never manufactured its own cockades or any
15 other insignia. I obtained them in Indija from a private manufacturer.
16 Q. Please tell me, you know who Nikola Kavaja is?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He died recently. He died recently. Why am I asking you this.
19 I saw in some newspapers some photographs from his funeral. There was a
20 guard of honour held by uniformed members of the Serbian guard of
21 Vuk Draskovic. Did you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Members of the Serbian Guard, they wore black uniforms. Did you
24 observe that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party ever, ever, ever
2 wear any kind of black uniforms? Did any volunteers of the Serb
3 Radical Party ever wear black uniforms?
4 A. Never.
5 Q. Are you sure?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Very well. We mentioned a little while ago this overthrow of the
8 Socialist government and the communique issued by the Socialists against
9 me and the Serb Radical Party. You're aware that Milosevic's regime
10 arrested me on several other occasions as well?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let me jog your memory. In 1994, first they sentenced me to a
13 month and then to another three months?
14 A. A total of four months in the central prison.
15 Q. Yes, because of the incident in the federal Assembly; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When Drasko Markovic, our federal deputy, threw water over the
19 speaker of the Assembly, Radovan Bozovic, and the Assembly voted to expel
20 him, and we did not allow the Assembly police to take him out of the
21 room, and there was an incident, is that correct, and we wrestled with
22 the police, literally?
23 A. Yes. I participated in that.
24 Q. And then I was sentenced to four months in prison. I was the
25 only one who served a prison sentence, is that correct, because I was the
1 strongest? All right.
2 And do you remember that a group of associates and I - you were
3 not with us at the time - were arrested again in Gnjilan in June 1995
4 because we had organised a rally there which was banned by the regime,
5 and we went to Gnjilan anyway?
6 A. Yes. You were in prison.
7 Q. Yes. And then the police --
8 A. Intervened. They beat you up and took you to prison, and I came
9 to visit you there.
10 Q. And I spent two months there in prison with my associates; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. When Slobodan Milosevic was in power, did anyone ever attack
14 Slobodan Milosevic and his wife, who was the director of the Yule [phoen]
15 Direction, another ruling party, more fiercely than I did?
16 A. No, I don't think so. I know that you even wrote several books
17 about this. There was a large number of public appearances, appearances
18 in the media, in newspapers, on TV. Let me remember -- let me try to
19 remember the title of one of your books. "Mirjana Markovic was the Red
20 Witch," and they were at Dedinje and so on.
21 Q. Well, I gave all these books to the Prosecution a long time ago.
22 The regime managed to arrest me only because of some incidents that had
23 been provoked and that were quite innocent?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Had they had any information that I was involved in any sort of
1 crime, or war crime, or anything of that nature, would not have they been
2 eager to arrest me immediately and deal with me in that way at the time?
3 A. I think so, yes.
4 Q. Do you remember when there was a reconciliation between the
5 Serbian Radical Party and Milosevic and his party in 1998, and what was
6 the occasion?
7 A. I had already left then, but I think it was --
8 Q. The situation in Kosovo and Metohija?
9 A. Yes, yes, the Kosovo crisis, that's right.
10 Q. In your statement, it says here that "Milosevic gave me means and
11 funds to implement the policies of the Milosevic regime." Did you ever
12 tell that to The Hague
13 A. Certainly not in this way.
14 Q. Did Milosevic's regime ever help the Serbian Radical Party in any
15 way, either with funds or infrastructure or in terms of organisation?
16 A. While I was a member, no. That I know for certain.
17 Q. It says here in your alleged statement that I was often on the
18 telephone with Radmilo Bogdanovic. Are you aware or do you remember that
19 Radmilo Bogdanovic was a favourite functionary of the Socialist Party and
20 that I -- he was the one whom I always liked best to attack from the
21 rostrum in the Assembly?
22 A. Well, I was on good terms with Radmilo Bogdanovic, and I
23 continued being on good terms with him. And it's correct that for
24 whatever reason, Radmilo Bogdanovic was often exposed to your criticism.
25 Q. In paragraph 21, it says that the Serb Radical Party cooperated
1 with Frenki Simatovic, the leader of the Red Berets. Is that correct, is
2 that what you said?
3 A. I spoke about this yesterday. It has nothing to do with common
5 Q. When there were fierce conflicts with the Milosevic regime, I
6 often provoked Jovica Stanisic and Frenki Simatovic and so on, expecting
7 them to respond in a nervous manner. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes. There were quite a few attacks against the two of them.
9 Q. I would launch a provocation through the media and wait for their
10 nervous reaction, thinking that then I could exploit it politically; was
11 that what happened?
12 A. Yes, precisely so.
13 Q. And I introduced a lot of confusion so that nobody could make
14 head or tail of what was really going on?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was I a master in producing these propaganda effects?
17 A. I have never met a bigger master, someone more proficient than
18 you in that respect.
19 Q. You said, it says here, that we cooperated with members of the
20 JNA General Staff; for example, with General Domazetovic.
21 But you don't have precise data with how we cooperated with him,
22 do you?
23 A. I don't know whether you know Domazetovic at all. I met
24 Domazetovic only in 2002 or 2003. Do you know him?
25 Q. I met him late. He was already retired. But with my knowledge
1 and my approval, Ljubisa Petkovic went to meetings with him to agree to
2 the sending of volunteers. That's no secret. But you were not able to
3 speak about this because you weren't involved or familiar with that?
4 A. I was not in contact with Ljubisa Petkovic at all, which is why,
5 in my statement -- well, I say now he should have been sent to The Hague
6 rather than you.
7 Q. Who?
8 A. Ljubisa Petkovic.
9 Q. Well, he's already been in The Hague. He was sentenced, and he
10 served his sentence.
11 A. Yes, but that's what's going to happen to me, too, because the
12 Prosecutor says the same thing that Tomislav Nikolic said at the rostrum.
13 She's telling me that I'm not telling the truth. That's something that
14 has been orchestrated, and all I can expect now is a prison sentence.
15 Ljubisa Petkovic got off easy. He had a good time in The Hague
16 for four months. He was assisted by Croats, Serbs, all sorts of people,
17 and he got a place in Parliament as a deputy. And I will get a spanking.
18 And it was said two hours ago that the state should take measures against
19 those who are testifying in The Hague
20 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, the Prosecution cannot prove that you are lying.
21 They cannot prove that you are lying, because everything you have said up
22 to now in the cross-examination can be documented and it can be proved to
23 be true.
24 A. Well, I'm telling you the truth quite sincerely. Yesterday and
25 today, I've been speaking the truth, and nothing but the truth, and I've
1 been speaking under oath.
2 Q. Very well, very well.
3 A. But that's propaganda.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour? Have
5 you intervened?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters can't hear me.
8 The microphone is on now. There must be a problem, because I don't seem
9 to be able to speak -- it's working now.
10 Witness, you said something. It was a minor detail. It may have
11 been a mistake in translation, but earlier on, you spoke about Petkovic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the interpreter
13 cannot hear you. They are complaining to me, the interpreters.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you turn off your
15 microphone, Mr. Seselj.
16 Witness, you mentioned a detail that was very quick, but I
17 wondered whether there was a mistake or not. You said that Mr. Petkovic,
18 he was convicted to a prison sentence, that he was assisted by Croats and
19 Serbs, and that he -- he was now a deputy in Parliament. Is he now a
20 deputy -- a member of Parliament?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think he is. Yes. I'm not
22 sure, but I think he is, yes.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which party is he a member of?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radical, the Serbian Radical Party.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 Please continue.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters --
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. As you mentioned this, we'll have to clarify. Are you aware,
5 Mr. Stefanovic, that Ljubisa Petkovic returned to the Serbian Radical
6 Party some time ago?
7 A. Yes. He doesn't have to be on the party ticket to be a deputy.
8 He participated in the election campaign, he participated in rallies of
9 the Serbian Radical Party.
10 Q. And he spoke at the rallies?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Very well. And the party ticket was drawn up some two months
13 before the elections; is that right?
14 A. Yes. It had to be, under the law, and he had to be on the
16 Q. The elections were held in early May?
17 A. On the 12th.
18 Q. So in March, he had to be put on the party ticket; is that right?
19 A. At the latest, maybe even before that.
20 Q. And he was arrested in late May; is that correct? Do you
21 remember when he was arrested?
22 A. He was taken from the madhouse in late May.
23 Q. Don't say that he was taken from the madhouse, from the asylum.
24 A. He was kidnapped.
25 Q. Well, he was in a hospital, in an asylum, not in a madhouse.
1 Don't demonstrate your intolerance towards Mr. Petkovic in this way.
2 A. I'm not demonstrating my intolerance. I'm just saying that he
3 was kidnapped.
4 Q. Any one of us, because of torture, various pressures and so on,
5 can ask for the assistance of a psychiatrist; is that right? It's not
6 immoral, it's not something to be sneered at, if someone in a difficult
7 situation had to ask for help from a psychiatrist?
8 A. I think you misunderstood me, this whole story. In my public
9 appearances and in newspaper articles, and still today, even 'Glas
10 Javnosti' is writing about the torture of Serbian witnesses and the
11 failure to punish other Siptar, Croat and Muslim criminals. So you
12 misunderstood me. Please don't hold this against me, because I am trying
13 to defend Ljubisa Petkovic, and I condemn what the Tribunal did.
14 It's true that he was brought to the edge of reason, and it's
15 quite normal that he should ask for help from a doctor. Every person has
16 the right to get medical assistance when he's in difficulties.
17 You didn't understand me properly.
18 Q. Very well. Mr. Stefanovic, did you hear we had an eminent
19 deputy, Dragan Tasic, who graduated in law in Montpellier in France
20 was a very good lawyer, an excellent connoisseur of French and English,
21 he spoke French and English very well, and he played an important role in
22 the team assisting in my Defence? Have you heard of Dragan Tasic, he
24 A. I didn't know him personally, but I have heard of him.
25 Q. Unfortunately he died at the age of 49 last summer, and when
1 Ljubisa Petkovic returned from prison, the Central Homeland
2 Administration decided that Ljubisa Petkovic should become a national
3 deputy in place of the late Dragan Tasic. Are you aware of that?
4 A. It's the first time I've heard of it.
5 Q. And as the Serbian Radical Party is a fierce opponent of
6 The Hague Tribunal, the Central Homeland Administration felt that this
7 was a way to honour Ljubisa Petkovic for his heroic deeds, because even
8 at the cost of serving a prison sentence did he agree to testify for the
9 Prosecution in the proceedings against me; is that how it was?
10 A. Well, I support what you say.
11 Q. Very well. Mr. Stefanovic, just as I'm opposed to anyone showing
12 intolerance towards you, I am also against anyone showing intolerance
13 towards Ljubisa Petkovic.
14 A. No, I wasn't trying to do that. You misunderstood me.
15 Q. All right. Let's move on.
16 Did the Serbian Radical Party ever, through its section, the
17 Serbian Chetnik Movement, establish units in the interior of Serbia
18 municipality and local commune? Did we ever do this in the interior of
20 A. There was no need.
21 Q. So when volunteers were sent to the front, they would first come
22 to Belgrade
23 issued with weapons and uniforms and sent to the front-line. And when
24 they came back, each one went to his own home; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's just how it was.
1 Q. And here in this alleged statement of yours, on page 7, I see it
2 says that -- they said:
3 "Here I describe the hierarchy of the War Staff and the units on
4 the ground which call themselves Chetniks."
5 Did this exist in Serbia
6 or in Gornji Milanovci or in Valjevo, where you were, and was there a
7 commander of such a unit in Valjevo, for example? Did those ever exist?
8 A. Well, what would those units be used for, what purpose would they
9 serve? That's not true, there was no organised group of Chetniks on the
10 territory of Serbia
11 Q. Well, I'm asking you this because we had a Prosecution witness
12 here, whose testimony I challenged, who claimed that we had units in
13 every municipality and that this military structure --
14 A. 2s and 3s?
15 Q. Well, we won't go into this any further. Let's see what else we
16 can clarify in what time we have left. There are some other things I
17 have noted here.
18 Mr. Stefanovic, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you
19 spoke about something that is very significant to me. You said that you
20 were recruited by the Tribunal to contact the Serbian Radical Party and,
21 through the party, to offer me a trial in Belgrade, and that I would be
22 released provisionally and given a sentence of only ten years, and that I
23 refused this. Let's explain this in greater detail.
24 First of all, who called you and who talked to you about this?
25 A. Bruno Vekaric from the Tribunal. He said to me that he was asked
1 from The Hague
2 I had in mind that I could always come in contact with Dragan Todorovic,
3 for instance, who was one of the men at the very top of the leadership in
4 the Radical Party, and I did indeed come into contact with him. I rang
5 him up on the phone, and we discussed it. I said -- in the Atos Pizzeria
6 in Belgrade
7 minutes later. And then we went up to the motorway so that we wouldn't
8 be overheard by anyone, and I told him all this.
9 And the story was as follows: That you should come and be tried
10 in front of our own -- in our own courts, and that you would be given a
11 prison sentence whereby you would be provisionally released immediately
12 after the trial, and that would be the best possible solution for you.
13 Q. And you told Dragan Todorovic that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Dragan Todorovic conveyed that to me, and I categorically
16 refused with indignation; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes, that's the information, the feedback information I got from
18 him. Dragan Todorovic rang me up, he said, "Let's meet," so we in the
19 same place by the motorway; and that's what he told me. I didn't comment
20 myself. I just listened to what he had to say, and he said no, he won't
21 hear of it and so on and so forth, and then I told Bruno Vekaric the
22 outcome, and some other people who were there when I told him, and then
23 they all said out loud, "Well, heavens, he's a madman. Why doesn't he
24 accept that? It's not a bad solution for him." And I said, "I don't
25 know. I'm not his adviser, nor can I decide on his behalf. I did what
1 you asked me to do as an intermediary." So I considered myself to be an
2 intermediary of some sort, a go-between for the Tribunal, working for the
3 Tribunal in one way in the morning and in another way in the afternoon.
4 Q. And he was a spokesman of who, the Tribunal or the Special War
5 Crimes Tribunal, he's a spokesman, isn't he, of the special prosecutor
6 for war crimes, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who were the other people present when you provided them with
9 this feedback information?
10 A. I can't remember their names, although I could find out, because
11 I know the people. They work in the OTP, but I don't know what their
12 names are.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I request that you demand
14 Bruno Vekaric's written statement, the spokesman of the Tribunal in
16 important piece of information, and that he should be asked to state it
17 all in writing.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, can I ask you
19 something? Did anybody, on behalf of Dragan Todorovic, ask you what I've
20 just been talking about?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Dragan Todorovic told me about it
22 personally, and I refused with indignation, because I never agreed to any
23 bargaining or anything like that with relation to this trial, and I abhor
24 anybody who entered into a plea agreement with the Prosecution. And I
25 suppose that is common knowledge to everyone.
1 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, after my departure to The Hague, you took part in
2 propaganda activities of the regime against me, personally, and against
3 the Serbian Radical Party; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And during your stay here, you spoke against me, against my party
6 and the Radicals, too, those Radicals?
7 A. [No interpretation].
8 Q. All right. Now, what influenced you? Was it my hunger strike
9 that made you change your opinion and attitude straight away and then to
10 offer yourself for my Defence team, to be a Defence witness?
11 A. Well, many things influenced me. It wasn't just one thing that
12 was decisive. But when I saw that it was all a farce, after the incident
13 we've just been talking about, about your being tried in Belgrade
14 et cetera, and many other things that seemed to me -- or, rather, many
15 bad things that had happened to me, I was treated here as if I was a
16 mentally-retarded child. I remember when the Prosecutor, the lady
17 Prosecutor came, the one sitting opposite you, she said, "Good morning,
18 Mr. Stefanovic." I said, "Good morning, madam." "Are you a Chetnik?" I
19 said, "Yes, I am, I'm a Chetnik." And she said, "Well, you have
20 honours -- honour and morals," and then I saw the aim of the question was
21 different from what I thought it was, that people who were less educated
22 say, "Yes, we Chetniks are special people, we don't lie and so on," so
23 you can say something that should be said and should not. But my answer,
24 the answer I gave her, was, "Madam Prosecutor, I am a politician, I deal
25 in politics, and I can't be put in any category." And she was astonished
1 and then we discussed this.
2 Unfortunately, we haven't got the transcript of that or the
3 recording of that conversation and what I said, but many circumstances
4 and many things, especially when I saw the campaign launched by the whole
5 of the West, and The Hague Tribunal as well, led by the OTP and the
6 Prosecutor, for example, the state of Serbia is in a ghetto here, thanks
7 to the Tribunal's insistence that we do something that they can't do.
8 They can't capture Ratko Mladic, they can't capture Goran Hadzic, and
9 unless we can capture him in the next ten years, we'll be punished.
10 Who's going to punish us? The Prosecution and others will be punished
11 for 100 years to come, and there will be no negotiation. They treat us
12 like a banana state, a banana republic.
13 So what I am experiencing today is something that I could never
14 have envisaged. I don't think anybody -- I could never imagine that
15 anybody would ever tell me to my face that I was lying, saying to a man
16 that he's lying, who has never lied before.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow
18 down. Thank you.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I understand that you
20 are a politician, but this is not the place for you to launch, as you
21 keep doing during this cross-examination, to launch into political
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there is an important
24 part --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the interpreters
1 cannot hear you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the microphone is
3 not working. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you hear me?
5 Witness, you just said something that might prove relevant.
6 When Mr. Seselj asked you whether you had led a campaign against
7 him, you said you did. But after that, it would appear that you decided
8 to be a witness for him, and this is an important point. Was it you,
9 yourself, who decided to tell the OTP and Mr. Seselj's Defence that you
10 then felt that it was your duty to be a Defence witness, or were you
11 forced to do so, to change your mind?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand the question,
13 Mr. President, and I'll give you a very precise answer.
14 When I gave my first statement here at the Tribunal, in these
15 premises here, three floors above, I said quite resolutely to the
16 investigators that this statement of mine can be used not only by the
17 OTP, but that the Defence can use it, too. Now, the fact that they might
18 not have recorded that is something that I did say. You can call the
19 person that was there and heard it. So at that first interview, I told
20 him that my statement could be used both by the Prosecution and by the
21 Defence. So -- well, a witness is a witness. There's no Defence or
22 Prosecution, as far as I understand it, in our system, at least, in my
23 country. If you're a witness, you're a witness. Whether you're going to
24 be a Prosecution or Defence witness or whatever, I don't know.
25 But anyway, I was resolved at the time to be a Prosecution or a
1 Defence witness, and then later on, who was going to exert pressure on me
2 from the Radicals? They couldn't exert pressure on me for ten years, and
3 now you expect Toma, who fled with the Americans, is he going to exert
4 pressure on me? No, nobody can exert pressure on me. But quite simply,
5 I thought it necessary to address the Tribunal in written form and state
6 that in -- of sound mind, I am writing to the Tribunal to inform them of
7 my intentions.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Mr. Seselj.
10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The prime minister, Zoran Djindjic at the time, suggested that
12 you talk to The Hague
13 anybody -- was anybody present at the meeting?
14 A. Vladan Babic knew about this. It went on for two or three days,
15 this persuasion, and then individually, too. And the final instance was
16 that I was thrown out of his office, and I said I didn't know what to do.
17 And quite frankly, at that point in time I didn't know whether I did or
18 did not have to respond to the summons from the Prosecution, to be quite
19 frank. If I knew that I didn't need to do that -- well, they kept saying
20 that, "Well, you're a Radical and you don't want to help, you asked that
21 the Radical Party be banned, you know them best," and things like that.
22 That's how it was.
23 Q. Vladan Batic was the Minister of Justice at the time, is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And he's still alive, luckily, so he could confirm your words?
2 A. Yes, Carla Del Ponte and Batic, they are both alive and can
3 confirm that, I think.
4 Q. Did you personally have a meeting with Carla Del Ponte?
5 A. No, no. It was in the Cabinet, in Djindjic's offices. I knew
6 that Djindjic was on good terms with Carla Del Ponte and that he said
7 that he had managed to gain assurances that I needn't appear.
8 Q. Did Djindjic tell you what his motives were to send me to
9 The Hague
10 A. Well, I talked about that an hour ago, about the political scene,
11 and that as far as you were concerned, all that was acceptable.
12 Q. Now, this DOS, the Democratic Opposition of Serbia that came to
13 power when Milosevic was overthrown; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, at the head of this party of yours, the DOS, did they feel
16 that you would take over the whole party, the control of the whole party
17 if I were to leave?
18 A. Well, I don't know. Cedo was in charge of that on behalf of the
19 DOS. I dealt with the Socialists more, and I managed to fulfill my
20 assignment and to split the Socialist Party into two streams. If you
21 remember that time, Baki and Bani and Ivkovic and so on, so I was in
22 charge of dealing with the Socialist Party of Serbia.
23 Q. You mean Cedomir Jovanovic?
24 A. Yes, Cedomir Jovanovic.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down
1 for the benefit of everyone. Thank you.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In paragraph 26 of your statement, it says the following: That
4 the Serbian Radical Party had its intelligence organs and that you knew
5 two men who worked as military intelligence organs. And to be quite
6 true, I was astounded when I read here that you named Professor Jovan
7 Marjanovic from the Faculty of Political Sciences, and also Colonel
8 General Bozidar Stevanovic, also known as Mika Sprajc. Now, why was I
9 astonished to hear that? Because you, Mr. Stefanovic, knew full well
10 that within the frameworks of the political alliance, we really did have
11 a group of retired military officers who dealt in intelligence. Do you
12 remember that we had that?
13 A. Yes, I do, but I don't remember that these two men were there.
14 Q. Well, do you remember who was there? Let me remind you. Do you
15 remember Colonel Milos Dimitrijevic, for instance, whom we called Stojan
16 in order to cover up his presence? Do you remember Stojan?
17 A. Well, he's a good friend of mine today, and we're still in
18 contact. I remember Miso Dimitrijevic very well, and in 2002 or '3 he
19 shared an office with me in Nemanjema [phoen] Street.
20 Q. Do you remember that he would bring to my office every morning
21 intelligence reports on the events on the political scene that happened
22 the previous day?
23 A. Yes, and he did all that while you were in prison in 1994. And
24 then he came to see me one morning, and I sent him packing.
25 Q. Something else happened, Mr. Stefanovic. We'll come to that in
1 due course. I'm sure I'll jog your memory. But do you remember the
2 captain of the naval ship Rade Suljagic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he one of the people who provided me with very important
5 information as well and who, in a way, was an adviser, too, in certain
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Not every day, but Colonel Milos Dimitrijevic did, not to mention
9 other people, because the general public doesn't know them. But, anyway,
10 do you remember, when I was arrested in 1994, that recently afterwards,
11 Colonel Dimitrijevic was arrested too?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you remember that he was remanded in custody by the State
14 Security Service for several days?
15 A. He wasn't officially arrested. He was kidnapped.
16 Q. Do you remember that four months later, upon leaving prison, I
17 broke up that party organ of ours, I disbanded it, because I considered
18 that the State Security Service was controlling it and that I was on the
19 lookout for new people who would work for the party leadership and deal
20 with those affairs; do you remember that?
21 A. I remember discussions about that, yes.
22 Q. Now, do you also remember that not until the present day, nobody
23 has managed to learn who those people are and who is the person behind
24 the name Laufer, whether it's just one person or more people; are you
25 aware of that?
1 A. No, I don't know about that.
2 Q. Well, you should know that I published a number of books. Laufer
3 has contacted me, Laufer hasn't forgotten me, a Chetnik head over the
4 Osmanli [phoen] whatever. Do you remember that the newspapers wrote
5 about that in Serbia
6 A. Yes. A journalist told me about that.
7 Q. And they haven't managed to learn who those intelligence men were
8 to this day, those people who provide me with reliable intelligence in
9 various areas. Not even Tomislav Nikolic knows that, knows their
10 identity; is that right?
11 A. I assume so.
12 Q. He said Jadranko Vukovic was allegedly a go-between between
13 myself and those intelligence men, but he never learned who those men --
14 those informers were, either. So I've learned something when it comes to
15 intelligence work, have I not? Am I right?
16 How much more time have I got, Judges?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was wondering also, how
18 much time you had left.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to the Registrar, you
22 have 25 minutes left. I found it rather surprising, but, yes, you have
23 25 minutes left.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I might not use all the
25 25 minutes, but I'll do my best to use them all up.
1 Q. Yesterday, in response to a question from Judge Harhoff, you
2 seemed a bit disoriented. He asked you about the transport of the bodies
3 of killed members or volunteers of the Radical Party. And I decided that
4 this was because -- that your confusion came from --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the rest.
6 A. The problem is that the War Staff -- now, when I looked at the
7 recording again and transferred it again, and I'll let the Trial Chamber
8 be the judges, I couldn't remember that it was the Crisis Staff before,
9 that that's what it was called before. And now in talking to people this
10 morning, it became clear to me. So when the question of coffins was
11 brought up, and whatever else, that was something -- well, if they'd
12 asked me about surgery, I might have known more. So I'm not the right
13 person to answer that kind of question. But the man asked me, so I had
14 to answer. So it wasn't that I was confused; it was that I didn't know
15 what to -- what answer to give. And, quite frankly, I do know that some
16 people were killed over there, but what happened, I really don't know.
17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I would like to remind you --
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have to observe a pause between question and
20 answer. Your last question, for instance, Mr. Seselj, was never
21 translated. I didn't know what you were asking. So please make sure
22 that you make a break.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm referring to your
24 questions of last night, Mr. Harhoff. I wish to remind Mr. Stefanovic
25 that all the work about transferring the bodies of volunteers who had
1 been killed to Serbia
2 JNA. They used their medical vehicles and their helicopters to transport
3 the bodies. All the funerals were paid for by the state. And starting
4 from September 1991 onwards, a platoon of the army from the local
5 garrison would fire a salvo every time there was a military band playing
6 at the funeral. And officials of our party were always present. I was
7 often present, personally. We made speeches.
8 Q. Do you remember that, Mr. Stefanovic?
9 A. I never participated in any of the funerals. I assume all this
10 is true. It's all very logical. These people were incorporated into the
11 units of the JNA, as it was -- or whatever it was called then. But I was
12 confused by this insistence that we should do something that I was not
13 informed about. I don't know how they were transferred, how the coffins
14 were transported. It's logical that the army did that. It's true that
15 there was always a military band playing. It's true that a volunteer who
16 was killed was always buried with all the honours due to a soldier of the
17 JNA and of Yugoslavia
18 Q. And do you remember that volunteers who were wounded were treated
19 at the Military Academy Hospital
20 A. Yes. They were treated just like every soldier.
21 Q. And is years of service counted for every member of the Serbian
22 Radical Party who was a volunteer, and that those who became invalids
23 were given a pension and all the benefits they were entitled to?
24 A. Yes. They were always treated as regular soldiers of the
25 Yugoslav Army.
1 Q. Very well. Judge Harhoff asked you how the exchange of prisoners
2 took place. Are you aware that a certain number of volunteers of the
3 Serbian Radical Party were taken prisoner by the Croats in the course of
4 the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you aware, for example, that 11 volunteers of the Serbian
7 Radical Party, in December 1991, were killed defending Masicka Sargovina
8 in Western Slavonia, and that some were wounded or taken prisoner?
9 A. Yes. Dragan Jovanovic, a friend of mine, was killed there, and
10 Sigma [phoen] and Ducica [phoen] were taken prisoner.
11 Q. It wasn't Dragan Jovanovic, it was Dragan Lazarevic, sir.
12 A. Yes, yes, you're right, that's right.
13 Q. He was a common friend of ours and a member of the party
15 A. Yes. I made an error.
16 Q. And he was killed there. He was an only son; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember who conducted the negotiations concerning their
19 exchange? They were arrested, put into a Croatian prison in Gradiska,
20 I think. They are tortured in prison. And who was in charge of
21 negotiations concerning their exchange; do you remember?
22 A. Mr. Seselj, I was in Australia
24 Q. Well, I'll tell you that the JNA was in charge of all the
25 negotiations concerning exchanges, and we kept telephoning and trying to
1 get the structure in the General Staff to get the exchange performed as
2 soon as possible.
3 A. I was present on several occasions when you personally telephoned
4 the chief of the General Staff concerning some other exchanges; saving
5 someone, I don't know. But it was always the army that was called up --
6 that was contacted on the telephone.
7 Q. Is it correct that all the volunteers of the Serbian Radical
8 Party taken prisoner by the Croats were ultimately exchanged and that not
9 a single one was ever accused by the Croatian authorities of having
10 committed a war crime; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it correct that not a single volunteer of the Serbian Radical
13 Party who went from Serbia
14 Republika Srpska was ever accused of a specific war crime by the Croat or
15 Muslim authorities?
16 A. That's correct, they had no reason.
17 Q. So you confirm what I say in my question?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Explain one other thing to me. Although you personally did not
20 work on this, but you explained how the volunteers were sent, what you
21 said was true. They would come to the party headquarters, then they
22 would go to Bubanj Potok, to the barracks, and from there to the front.
23 But the following is very important. Was there a frequent fluctuation of
24 volunteers? For example, in one shift a man would leave as a volunteer
25 of the Serbian Radical Party, he would remain at the front for two or
1 three months, he would come home, and then he would go to the front-line
2 again, but he would join Arkan's men or the White Eagles or the Serbian
3 Guard, and so on? Did this fluctuation exist?
4 A. Yes, yes, yes, to the best of my knowledge, yes. I have to say
5 that in the park opposite the party, where Seselj saw them off, he didn't
6 try to persuade them to commit crimes, to kill, to slaughter. No. He
7 said, "Go and protect those people there." And I think it's important to
8 mention that.
9 Q. Did you attend any of my speeches when I was seeing them off,
10 when I told them how a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party should
11 behave on the battlefield?
12 A. Well, it transpires --
13 Q. That he must behave in a chivalrous manner, that he must be
14 fearless, but that he must treat, in a noble and humane manner, children,
15 women, and so on and so forth? Did I say those things?
16 A. Yes, I confirm that that's true.
17 Q. Did we, as a party, condemn severely all war crimes, including
18 looting, especially looting committed by others in the war-affected
20 A. Yes, very often. You criticised that very often. Very often,
21 that would happen when we heard that someone had committed a crime on the
22 Serb side.
23 Q. And do you remember my fierce attacks on Arkan and Arkan's men,
24 on Pantava [phoen] Guards, Mouseva's [phoen] Guard, the Serbian Guard,
25 the White Eagles and so on?
1 A. Yes, that's what I was referring to.
2 Q. Well, I'm surprised by one thing. In this statement the
3 Prosecution ascribes to you, you say the soldiers of the JNA were the
4 most disciplined soldiers, that Arkan's men were very disciplined, and
5 that the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were not disciplined,
6 that they were of poor quality. Did you really say that?
7 A. Well, I clarified this yesterday, but let me clarify once more.
8 When I say "of poor quality," I don't mean that they were bad
9 material, but these were people who are not trained. They were not
10 trained professional soldiers and officers. In the nature of things,
11 they should have gone through training and not been put in leadership
13 Well, let's not go into what I did or didn't say, but I think
14 that ordinary people should not be pushed into positions alongside
15 professional soldiers or men with military training, coming from the
16 police and so on and so forth, and sent to lead military operations,
17 because they don't know the rules of service, they don't know the
18 conventions on the protection of prisoners of war, and so on and so
20 There are many things that the Prosecution and others are
21 pressuring me to say about this statement, but I explained quite clearly,
22 and today with a clear conscience I still say that I did not make the
23 statement to the so-called investigators under oath and that it was not
24 my statement that made the Prosecution draw up the indictment against
25 you. My statement came later, after the indictment, so I did not say
1 anything that might have consequences for them or for you.
2 And I was never shown what I said, because I would have said,
3 "Wait a minute, I didn't say that," because a man can make a mistake.
4 But someone shouldn't be made to pay for that with his freedom or to
5 suffer for that reason or to waste money on false statements. If I had
6 been given a single statement of mine by the Tribunal or by the
7 Prosecution, I would have objected and said, "Wait a minute, I didn't say
8 it like this. You didn't translate this properly, you didn't formulate
9 it properly," and our job today would have been much easier, and the
10 Chamber and the Presiding Judge would have had an easier job. So would
11 the Prosecutor and so would you, as the accused. And I also, but I was
12 never given that statement of mine to look at, and to this day I don't
13 know what it says there. And I'm afraid now what else I will hear read
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, we get your point, but
16 there's still something that is not clear to me.
17 Yesterday, we saw a signature on a page where it was stated that
18 the statement had been read back to you in your language, and at the
19 bottom of this we saw your signature. And you confirmed that it was,
20 indeed, your signature.
21 Are you telling us today that you signed a document that was not
22 telling the truth, you signed a false statement; is that what you are
23 trying to tell us?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, I'll explain this to
1 Yesterday and today, I say that the translation was never read
2 out to me in Serbian.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Please respond by "yes" or "no."
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement was never read to me.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You provided enough explanation
7 When you signed this acknowledgement, where you state that the
8 statement had been read back to you and so on and so forth, you put your
9 signature at the bottom of something that was not telling the truth,
10 because you signed this? You signed this statement, where you said it
11 was your statement?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I said what it says there.
13 Well, yes, it's my signature, but the signature was always put on the
14 document in English and it was never translated to me.
15 Are you satisfied with my reply now, because that's the truth,
16 and the only truth, and the real truth.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you only have a few
18 minutes left.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, do you know of a single instance where volunteers
21 of the Serbian Radical Party participated in looting in war-affected
22 areas and brought war booty to Serbia
23 know of a single instance of that?
24 A. I don't know of a single instance. Had they done this, by any
25 chance, they would have been punished or branded in public by the
1 leadership of the party. That was the standpoint of the party.
2 Q. And we expelled quite a few people from the Serbian Radical Party
3 for lack of discipline, do you remember, because of individual instances
4 of theft, failure to obey orders, and so on?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember that I was the only person in Serbia who dared to
7 attack Arkan publicly, openly, looking him in the eye, because Arkan was
8 all-powerful in Serbia
9 A. He did whatever he wanted, and I remember that TV debate very
10 well, when you told him some things, and later on I heard in person from
11 the cameraman and the person hosting the show that they were terrified
12 that he would take out a pistol and shoot you then and there.
13 Q. Are you aware that after all those attacks of mine, that Arkan
14 sued me?
15 A. Yes, yes, when you told him that he had worn more socks on his
16 head than you had worn on your foot.
17 Q. I think that you came to the Palace of Justice
18 attend the trial, when I turned up in the courtroom, and the judge said
19 15 minutes before the start of the trial Arkan's lawyer arrived, Toma
20 Fila, and he withdrew the lawsuit against me; do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, I remember that very well.
22 Q. So they didn't dare face me in court either; is that how it was?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you must be aware that Ljubisa Savic, Mauser, the
25 commander of the Kadarda Pantovi [phoen] paramilitary unit, was the
1 deputy prime minister under Djindjic?
2 A. Yes, of the Democratic Party for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. And also in Serbia
4 Republika Srpska?
5 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. The party wasn't active all over Bosnia-Herzegovina, but only
7 Republika Srpska; am I right?
8 A. Yes, yes. Initially, it was Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mauser was the
9 president of the Democratic Party for Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992. But
10 you are talking about the time when Republika Srpska already existed, and
11 that was after 1995. But the answer is "yes."
12 Q. Are you aware that The Hague Prosecution, in its indictment,
13 accused me of crimes committed by Ljubisa Savic, Mauser, through my
14 alleged participation in a joint criminal enterprise; are you aware of
16 A. I don't know. I'm surprised at this.
17 Q. Well, from this, it follows that I was in a JCE with
18 Zoran Djindjic, because instead of accusing Zoran Djindjic for what
19 Ljubisa Savic, Mauser, did, they put this in the indictment against me.
20 Are you aware of that?
21 A. In 1992, I know that Ljubisa, Mauser, established some sort of
22 camp, and we had to intervene. Someone intervened to have this broken
23 up, dissolved, in Bijeljina, and when the conflict broke out, he had
24 already made false steps, and we had nothing in common with Mauser or any
25 kind of military cooperation on anything else, to the best of my
2 Q. Do you know that it was the president of the Serbian Chetnik
3 Movement and later the president of the Serbian Radical Party, for
4 Semberija, Mirko Blagojevic, on several occasions publicly opposed to
5 Mauser's persecution of the Muslim population from Semberija, even the
6 Muslims that belonged to the Serb Army?
7 A. Yes, that is something I'm very familiar with, that that's
8 precisely how it was.
9 Q. Well, we won't dwell there, because The Hague Prosecutor has all
10 the documents -- those documents in its possession, all the statements
11 made by Mirko Blagojevic in Bijeljina, when he stood up in defence of the
12 local Muslim population.
13 Now, do you know, for example, that even today, in the Serbian
14 Radical Party in Bijeljina, we have quite a number of Muslims, even from
15 "baj" [phoen] families, high-born families, and do you know that among
16 the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, there were Serb Catholics,
17 so-called Croats, that we had Muslims, that we had Hungarians, that we
18 even had Albanians?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember a case -- the case of a Hungarian who was a
21 volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party, who was killed on the front, and
22 the Roman Catholic priest in Vojvodina did not want to conduct a service
23 at his burial because he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party?
24 A. Yes, I remember that well.
25 Q. Do you know that as for the Chetnik vojvoda, I proclaimed an
1 Albanian a Chetnik vojvoda, in fact? His name was Mujo Bunjaku, and he
2 had a new name, Oliver Dennis Barrett?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember that I promoted him to Chetnik vojvoda for
5 bravery -- his bravery during the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know that he was later killed in Belgrade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know why he was killed? Let me remind you. He was killed
10 by Vaso Djukanovic and Jozo Vujicic because he set up -- he lived
11 together with the wife of Vaso Djukanovic, cohabited with her?
12 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Now, do you know that The Hague -- the OTP of The Hague procured
14 certain statements from witnesses who falsely accused me of having killed
15 Dennis Barrett, that there are people who are ready to do things like
16 that, too? You find that funny?
17 A. Well, not funny; strange.
18 Q. Well, I find it funny, too, but I have to confront ludicrous
19 accusations of that kind.
20 Do you want to say something, Mr. Stefanovic? If not, we can
21 move on.
22 Now, you contacted -- you sent a letter, in fact, to the
23 Prosecution on the 15th of May of this year, and in that letter, well,
24 you say information for the Tribunal, and especially for the Trial
25 Chamber, to the attention of the Trial Chamber in the Seselj trial, where
1 you ask them to strike you from the list of Prosecution witnesses; isn't
2 that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. At that time, you stipulated that you were promised
5 that you would not have to appear as a witness live in this trial and
6 that you certainly wouldn't be travelling to The Hague, and that
7 Zoran Djindjic suggested that you should not accuse me falsely of crimes
8 but that you should try and discredit me as a political adversary. And
9 that is in paragraph 2 of that letter of yours that I was disclosed --
10 that was disclosed to me by the Prosecution.
11 And you also state that when you gave the statement, that there
12 was a man sitting in the room throughout, and that nobody told you who
13 that man was and why he was in the room where you were making your
14 statement, and that he was wearing a camouflage uniform; that he was
15 white, of short build, very nervous, and rigid in his conduct. Is that
16 what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember that man in uniform?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you -- were you able to recognise the uniform, whose army it
21 belonged to?
22 A. Well, it wasn't actually a camouflage uniform. It was -- well, I
23 don't know. It was sort of dark green or whatever.
24 Q. You say in your letter that the man left a negative effect on
25 you, and that he made you nervous and that you -- and made you afraid,
1 and you wanted to get away from him and leave the room because you felt
2 insecure and afraid?
3 A. Yes. He was sitting behind me, and I had the feeling that he was
4 some sort of security detail and that people from the Prosecution team
5 might have been afraid that I might not attack them physically, so I had
6 the impression that he was in the room because of that. And I asked him,
7 "What are you doing here, who are you?" And I even had a brief
8 conversation and said that nobody introduced him to me, nor did anybody
9 tell me who he was and what he was doing there. So I don't know anything
10 about that person, about that man.
11 Q. In your letter, you say that The Hague OTP never told you in what
12 capacity they were interviewing you, but that they did not allow your
13 lawyer to attend the interview; isn't that right?
14 A. That's right, and they won't -- wouldn't allow my lawyer to
15 attend my examination yesterday either, nor was my counsel allowed to
16 attend at any time.
17 Q. Whereas according to the Serbian legal system, you have the right
18 to a lawyer, whoever is examining or interviewing you; isn't that right?
19 A. Yes, and not only in the Serb system but in others too.
20 Q. And when a municipal service calls you up, you have the right to
21 go there with a lawyer, accompanied by a lawyer, let alone when it's a
22 court prosecutor or the police?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you told them at the time that you confirmed that you signed
25 the statements, but that you never saw what it actually said in those
1 statements; that's what you state in the letter?
2 A. Yes, and I asked them to send me the statements. That's what I
3 asked them to do there.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not working again. Thank
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you have one last question,
7 could the court deputy make sure that a technician comes. It should have
8 been done, well, a long time ago.
9 Madam Registrar, do make sure that an engineer can come in. I
10 can't work in these conditions.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] It seems to be working now.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your time is up. You may have
13 one last question, Mr. Seselj. Put it straight away.
14 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] I have one more question.
15 Q. As you state here, and that is in paragraph 3 on page 2, that
16 your testimony was, in fact, made under duress because you weren't able
17 to refuse Zoran Djindjic's request, now, did The Hague Tribunal ask you
18 to have a meeting and discuss the letter with you, and then to show you
19 the statement so that you could go through your statement to see what you
20 actually said and what you didn't say and all the rest of it, because I'm
21 rather surprised and astonished that they never showed you the statement.
22 They must have had a proofing session with you before your testimony, and
23 during that proofing session they must have shown you -- they ought to
24 have shown you the statement and gone through the statement and informed
25 if you made any corrections to that statement. So did any of that
2 A. I'm telling you for the third time that none of that happened,
3 and that that's why I wrote a letter to the Tribunal, and that is a
4 document. I'm sure there were other documents. I sent two or three
5 documents requesting the Prosecution, or the Tribunal, or whoever, to
6 provide me with the statements so that I could look through them and
7 state my views. And I also asked them to -- well, I don't know -- to
8 strike me from the list of witnesses, because my statement cannot be
9 relevant. And I wrote that, too.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That completes my
11 cross-examination. Thank you, Mr. Stefanovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have any redirect,
14 Ms. Dahl?
15 MS. DAHL: Yes, please, Your Honour.
16 Re-examination by Ms. Dahl:
17 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you said earlier today in your testimony that you
18 looked at today's newspaper, the 'Glas Javnosti'?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your interview is in that paper today; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall the instructions at the end of your testimony
23 yesterday from the Trial Chamber?
24 A. I do recall the instructions I was given. But what have
25 instructions got to do with it, with your question?
1 Q. You were instructed to refrain from any contact with the media;
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't contact the media.
5 I gave the interview the day before yesterday. And let me tell you again
6 the time and place and journalist. I gave an interview the day before
7 yesterday. The journalist's name was Milosevic, the 'Glas Javnosti'
8 journalist. We were sitting in the Atos Pizzeria in Belgrade where I'm a
9 frequent guest. And we sat there from half past 3.00 until 5.00, and she
10 recorded it all into a Dictaphone and then she went to the editorial
11 offices and she could have released it the same day or the next day or
12 two days later. That's up to the editorial board. But, anyway, I was
13 very angry because the interview was -- did not come out yesterday.
14 But what you're trying to do now has nothing to do with that,
15 because I didn't come into contact -- I didn't contact the journalist. I
16 left here at about 7.30, waited for half an hour for my transportation,
17 which means that I was in town about 8.30. So it was impossible to give
18 an interview after that. That would have been 9.30 and so on, because
19 the papers go to the press at 8.00. So there's no need for you to try
20 and do that.
21 The fact that it came out today, that's got nothing to do with
22 me. I'm not a member of the editorial board. It's up to the editors
23 when they decide to publish it, and I've just told you when I gave the
25 Q. You've answered my question. You said in your testimony earlier
1 today that you analysed the signatures on your statement, and I'm quoting
2 from the transcript:
3 "They're not my signatures. They were scanned and only copied
4 onto the Serbian language, because when I was signing, there was no
5 translation into Serbian."
6 Do you remember giving that testimony?
7 A. Yes, I said something very similar to what you've just stated. I
8 never signed the Serbian version. That's it, there you have it, never.
9 If there's a signature there, then it's a forgery. I only signed the
10 English version, which wasn't translated to me, nor was it read back to
12 Q. And let me make sure we're talking about the same documents. I'm
13 referring to the 2006 statement in the Serbian language. Is that the one
14 you're talking about?
15 A. Yes, I challenge that this was my authentic statement, because as
16 far as I was able to see, many of the -- well, I don't have the integral
17 statement, I don't have the whole of it. I don't know what it says in
18 this statement, either. All I read here with my very own eyes is that it
19 was 0602436, paragraphs 21 and 26, and I stated my views about that
20 yesterday and today. So they are totally untrue, and I say with full
21 responsibility that I never said any of that.
22 MS. DAHL: For the Chamber's convenience, I have obtained from
23 the evidence vault at the Tribunal the original signed copies bearing
24 Mr. Stefanovic's original signature in blue ink on both the English and
25 Serbian versions, and I'd like to tender them into evidence to supplement
1 the copies that you received and marked for identification yesterday.
2 The ERN number on the top of the Serbian language document is 0601-2431,
3 and it ends at 0601-2455. The English original --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can I see the documents in
5 Serbian, because we didn't have them before.
6 MS. DAHL: For the record, the English signed original bears ERN
7 range 0601-2396 and concludes --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have here in front
9 of me your statement in Serbian. I also have in front of me your
10 signature in blue ink. What do you have to say to that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really can't remember what
12 it says here. Well, I don't know all that it says there. I never read
13 it all, and I say that with full responsibility, that I never read that
14 document. And I don't know what the document -- what it says in the
15 document. So why didn't you provide me with that document?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask for the first
17 page to be put on the ELMO. Can it be put on the ELMO, Madam Registrar,
18 so that the first page can be seen and shown to the witness in his
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need to put that on the
21 overhead projector. I don't deny that it's my signature. But what I'm
22 telling you is this: Why wasn't I provided with the statement, when I
23 requested in writing that the Prosecution provide me with it? And I'm
24 telling you that I never read it, and many of the things that are written
25 in there are not what -- are things I did not say. I say that under
1 oath. So there's no need to put it on the overhead projector. That is
2 my signature. It couldn't have been signed by anyone else but me, but I
3 don't remember.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You admit that you signed the
5 text in your own language and the text in English. You signed both
6 versions. Well, we have here material evidence of it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember what I signed.
8 All I remember is that I signed everything, but that nobody told me what
9 it says in those documents.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, give us a
11 number for the B/C/S version.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But each and every page was
13 signed, not just the first one, Witness.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An MFI number, please, because
15 we shall determine the final admission later on.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P656 marked for identification, Your
18 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, to complete the record, the last page of
19 the English language statement, signed by the witness, was 0601-2430. It
20 is the same document translated into English as the original Serbian that
21 I have tendered. If the Chamber would like to see this, which also has
22 the original signature of the witness, I'm at your convenience or I can
23 put it back in the vault.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But with regard to the English
25 version, we already had it. But we shall check the original. Yes, we
1 can see the signature in blue ink.
2 Good, you can put it back into the vault.
3 Do you have other questions?
4 MS. DAHL: Yes, Your Honour, very briefly.
5 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you've just --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
7 MS. DAHL:
8 Q. You've just told the Chamber that you were never given a copy of
9 your statements to review in advance of your testimony. Did I understand
10 you correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you deny that we had an appointment for last Friday in
14 A. Yes.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was yes, the interpreter didn't
17 MS. DAHL:
18 Q. So we did not have an appointment; is that what you're saying?
19 A. We didn't have a meeting, but I asked for that in May.
20 Q. I offered to provide you with a full set of your statements this
21 past Friday in Belgrade
22 A. Well, yes, but you could have given it to me on Saturday. I
23 couldn't have gone on Friday, which was a saints day, so I couldn't have
24 done that on the Friday.
25 Q. After I travelled to Belgrade
1 up for the appointment?
2 A. I was absent for justified reasons.
3 Q. You didn't call me to tell me you weren't coming?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And I told you the Registry officer would be bringing a full set
6 of your statements for you in preparation for the videolink, didn't I?
7 A. I don't understand. I don't understand. What is it you just
9 Q. The Registry has a full set of your statements there with you for
10 your testimony right now; correct?
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. You met with the Prosecution investigators in February 2003?
13 A. But nobody showed me these documents here.
14 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you met with the Prosecution investigators in
15 February 2003; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you signed a statement dated 12 February 2003?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's the same statement we talked about in court yesterday and
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Judges, on that
22 statement, I have an objection. Mr. Stefanovic, you'll have to keep
23 quiet while I present my objection.
24 On this statement dated 2003, there is no signature of
25 Mr. Stefanovic's in the Serbian version. However, at the bottom of the
1 page, it always says "signed." But I assume that applies to the English
2 version, not the Serbian version. In the 2003 Serbian version,
3 Mr. Stefanovic's signature is not there.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There was no need to say that.
5 We knew that already.
6 Please continue, Ms. Dahl.
7 MS. DAHL:
8 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, you remained in contact with the Prosecution the
9 following year, 2004?
10 A. Yes, probably. I don't know.
11 Q. You remained in contact with the Prosecution throughout 2005?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You had a meeting with a Prosecution investigator in the
14 beginning of 2006, in February, at the field office; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You reported that you had some safety concerns?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said you were willing to testify before this Tribunal, but
19 you wanted protection?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You told the investigator that Mr. Petkovic was negotiating to
22 become a witness for the Defence?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You told the investigator that a bodyguard of Mr. Seselj's was
25 trying to contact you, and you perceived that to be a threat?
1 A. I don't know which bodyguard. I was in contact with him, not
3 Q. Mr. Panic.
4 A. Mr. Panic? Well, I was in contact with him. Why would I be
5 afraid of him? He was in conflict with Seselj, as far as I know.
6 Q. You told the investigator, when you met on 19 February 2007, that
7 Mr. Panic was trying to contact you over the phone?
8 A. I don't know what the investigator wrote, but I always talked to
9 Mr. Panic, who was not on good terms with Seselj, so I don't know where
10 the problem is. Why would I be afraid of him?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President, I didn't
12 intervene straight away because I was inquisitive and interested to know
13 what the answer would be of Mr. Stefanovic to -- what his response to the
14 Prosecutor would be, but these were impermissibly leading questions, and
15 you never ruled that Mr. Stefanovic should be proclaimed a hostile
16 witness vis a vis the Prosecution, which would allow Madam Dahl to put
17 leading questions. These are all leading questions.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question is not whether the
19 questions are leading or not. We just need to know why he asked to be
20 protected and why he no longer requests protective measures. That's the
22 MS. DAHL:
23 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, can you answer my question, please? You told the
24 investigator that Mr. Panic was trying to contact you; correct?
25 A. No, I didn't tell the investigator that. It was impossible that
1 I was afraid of Panic then, now, or any time, since Panic is in conflict
2 with Seselj since 2000 or 2001, so there's no reason why I should be
3 afraid of Panic. So that means that that's not true.
4 And the second key point, the question raised by the Judge, I'll
5 respond to that, if I may.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this: From the very
8 beginning, I never asked for any protective measures. Yesterday, when I
9 came here to this office, I was told that there would be some protective
10 measures put in place. I don't know what they were called. That I would
11 be protected, anyway. And I told you that I do not wish to have
12 protective measures, nor did I ever want protective measures, and that
13 everything that I was going to say would be the truth, and that I don't
14 want to hide behind my own testimony. And then you decided to lift the
15 protective measures which I'd never asked for. And then there was some
16 code name, 009, or some pseudonym or whatever. Some code was assigned
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
19 MS. DAHL:
20 Q. You continued to be cooperative with the Prosecution until the
21 letter that you sent on -- in May 2008 to us?
22 A. Yes, I informed you before that, because I had at least 100
23 telephone calls a year.
24 Q. So on 16 May 2008
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And that was the first mention that you made of an agreement that
2 you allege with Prime Minister Djindjic that you would never be a witness
3 in this case?
4 A. I told you in 2007, in September, that this agreement existed. I
5 told you, personally.
6 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, I put it to you that that is a lie. Do you deny
8 A. Give me the record of that meeting.
9 Q. You --
10 A. Is there a record of that meeting?
11 Q. You never mentioned that man's name in my presence ever before;
12 isn't that the truth?
13 A. Whose name, excuse me?
14 Q. Mr. Djindjic.
15 A. I tell you that I did. If you have the record, let's look at the
16 record of that meeting.
17 Q. Mr. Stefanovic, at that meeting you told myself and other
18 representatives of the Prosecution that the Radicals were putting
19 pressure on Prosecution witnesses, didn't you?
20 A. Give me the record and let me see what I said. I can't remember
21 now. I'm excited and I can't remember what I said. Show me the record.
22 Q. And we discussed that you would be the first witness at the
24 A. I don't remember that.
25 Q. And you said that you were agreeable to testifying, didn't you?
1 A. No, that's not correct, certainly, because from the summer --
2 well, I don't know when the trial started. The telephone kept ringing
3 non-stop. You kept looking for me, looking for me, looking for me.
4 Whether it's true or not, I think it is, and I persistently tried to let
5 you know that I wasn't supposed to come to the trial. I sent medical
6 documentation, I sent you letters, I sent -- I don't know what I didn't
7 send, thinking that there was no need for me to appear.
8 Q. And you said you wanted to be a Defence witness?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in fact, you gave a press interview in October 2008 in which
11 you said you were still a member of the Radical Party?
12 A. That is not correct. That's a misinterpretation in the daily
13 paper 'Courier,' which has introduced a lot of confusion. I said --
14 Q. You told the reporter who wrote the story that appeared in
15 'Courier' that you were still willing to help the party where you could?
16 A. I think that was after the conflict between Nikolic and the
18 Q. You said you still had the membership card in your wallet, didn't
20 A. Yes, I still have it.
21 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am now checking that it can
23 be heard and interpreted into English. That's the main thing.
24 Thank you for testifying, Witness. We are now going to break for
25 20 minutes, Witness. The court deputy is going to look after you and
1 look after the issue of costs for your day.
2 We are now going to have a 92 ter witness with protective
3 measures, so we'll have to lower the blinds first, and I ask the court
4 deputy to make sure that my mike is repaired.
5 [Videolink concluded]
6 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Good afternoon, sir. We are in closed session. You have been
12 granted protective measures. You have been granted a pseudonym, VS-1068.
13 When we move back into open session, your face will be distorted on the
15 Now I'm going to ask you to state your first name, last name, and
16 date of birth.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 12260-12261 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I've just been
8 handed is something I have here, but I'd like to draw your attention to
9 the fact that this is not the 92 ter statement, because all the 92 ter
10 statements have that in the title, stating that they're 92 ter
11 statements, and that's what it says in the Prosecution request for
12 witnesses under 92 ter. This is just the 2004 witness statement that I
13 have. I haven't mislaid that, but I don't have the 92 ter statement.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, this
15 statement we have here was to be admitted pursuant to Rule 92 bis; is
16 that correct?
17 MS. PRASAD: 92 ter, yes, Your Honour. There are two statements,
18 two written statements of Witness 1068, dated 18 March, 1995, and 13 June
19 2004, marked respectively ERN RR04-7394 - RR04-7404, and
20 0357-8609 - 0357-8616.
21 Your Honours, by the Trial Chamber's second decision dated 27
22 February 2008, we were granted permission to admit both of these
23 statements to the Court. We were granted under the 92 ter decision.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm quite so sure,
25 and I don't know why I'm sure about this, but I seem somehow to be sure
1 that you and your fellow Judges will not allow this to be admitted under
2 statement 92 ter.
3 The first statement was given in the Centre of the Security
4 Services of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Mostar. It's a statement taken by the
5 police of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas this statement taken by the
6 Prosecution is not an integral statement, because it follows on to the
7 statement given to the Bosnian authorities or, rather, the Muslim --
8 authorities of the Muslim-Croatian federation.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let us check all
10 this. I have here a statement by the witness dated 13th of June, 2004.
11 And you're quite right, there is another statement from the Ministry of
12 the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 18th of March, 1995, after the
13 first one. So the Prosecutor is requesting the admission of the second
14 statement, the statement of 13th of June, 2004.
15 Madam Prosecutor, is that right? The statement that's to be
16 admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter is the one dated the 13th of June, 2004
17 MS. PRASAD: Your Honour --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
19 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, we are seeking to -- seeking for both
20 the statements to be admitted under 92 ter, as per the DC decision we
21 were allowed. And, Your Honours, for your information, the 13th June
22 2004 statement is basically the witness basically expanded on the
23 information provided and clarified certain issues discussed in his
24 statement dated 1995, which he gave to the Mostar Security Services.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, in the decision of
1 the 27th of February, the Trial Chamber authorised the application of the
2 92 ter statement for both statements, because the second statement, given
3 to the authorities of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was a
4 supplement to the first statement. So, actually, the 92 ter statement
5 covers both statements, the one dated 23rd of June, 2004, and the one
6 dated 18th of March, 1995.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the statement given
8 to the Prosecutor in 2004 is, in fact, a supplement to the statement
9 given to the Muslim authorities in 1995. Now, I'd like to draw attention
10 to the fact that thus far it has never happened that any Trial Chamber of
11 The Hague Tribunal accepts a statement given to the Serbian, Muslim, or
12 Croatian authorities as a statement under 92 ter or 92 bis. Under 92 bis
13 or 92 ter, what was accepted was statements given exclusively to
14 The Hague Tribunal, whereas these two statements, one to the Muslim
15 authorities and one to The Hague Tribunal, is something that the
16 Prosecution is treating as a whole, which is impossible, in my opinion.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon, Your
20 It's certainly been the practice of Chambers of the International
21 Tribunal to admit statements, irrespective of to whom those statements
22 were given, as long as the specific terms of Rule 92 ter or 92 bis have
23 been complied with. Mr. Seselj is absolutely wrong when he states that
24 The Hague Tribunal, as he puts it, has never accepted a statement given
25 to the Serbian, Muslim, or Croatian authorities. That is simply not
2 The only requirements for the admission of written statements are
3 those that are set forth in the Rule, and there is no specific
4 requirement that a written statement be provided to an investigator of
5 the Tribunal in order for it to be admissible pursuant to Rules 92 bis,
6 92 ter, or even under Rule 89(F).
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, your submissions
8 have been recorded on the transcript, and I will personally keep that in
9 mind when the Chamber rules on the admission of these statements.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One more sentence and I won't
11 interrupt anymore.
12 Mr. President, it was the practice of certain Trial Chambers that
13 statements given to the local authorities were taken under 89(F), because
14 it says there that any statement can be taken under certain conditions.
15 But in practice -- or, rather, the practice to have two statements
16 treated as one statement under 92 ter is something that I am not aware
17 of. So Mr. Mundis can tell me which Trial Chamber accepted something
18 like that and when.
19 Here we have two quite separate statements, and the Prosecution
20 is treating them as one statement under 92 ter, whereas in other cases
21 the Prosecution prepares special 92 ter witnesses, and if the witness
22 gave more than one statement, then they make a compilation of all those
23 statements and provide one text, whereas here you, in fact, have two
24 statements, and there are contradictions in those two statements.
25 Unfortunately, I'm not able to point out those contradictions, because as
1 you know, a priori, I refuse to accept that type of testimony.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will rule on
3 the matter in due course. I'm not aware of this practice. It's a first
4 for me. The Trial Chamber will rule on this.
5 Ms. Prasad, we are in open session. Please give us the summary
6 of these two statements, since we are talking about two statements.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But can you read the first part
13 in open session, and then we should move into private session. Okay, so
14 when the time comes, please ask for private session.
15 MS. PRASAD: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 The witness is a Bosniak Muslim. In 1992, he was 21 years old
17 when the events unfolded in Mostar.
18 On 3rd April 1992
19 Camp in Zalik, Mostar. As a result, around 500 to 600 people, including
20 Serbs, Croats and Muslims, took refuge in a shelter in Zalik, as they
21 felt safer there.
22 In May 1992, the Serbs took over the area and restricted the
23 movement of all non-Serbs. On 7th May, few reservist troops entered the
24 shelter and selected ten non-Serbs and took them away. The when they
25 were brought back, the detainees informed the rest that they were taken
1 to Northern Camp barracks, where they were forced to kneel with their
2 heads bowed down the entire night.
3 Around 13 May 1992, a Chetnik entered the shelter and announced
4 that more Chetniks were advancing and he was about to begin cleansing
5 Bijelo Polje.
6 On 22nd May 1992
7 the shelter and made a list of people who would clean the city and the
8 ruins. The detainees were labour to clean streets and garbage at
9 locations where shooting and shelling was ongoing, endangering their
10 lives, and using them as human shields.
11 On 13 June 1992
12 mined, the witness and several hundred people gathered at the shelter,
13 but the number of people kept increasing as Chetniks were forcing them
14 out of their apartments and bringing them to the shelter. A few Chetniks
15 came to the shelter and demanded that all male detainees line up outside
16 with their ID cards. Then they were taken to Northern Camp barracks.
17 From there, the witness, along with 15 other detainees, was
18 transported in a truck to a town cemetery building. They were imprisoned
19 in a room and taken one by one for interrogation. They could hear moans
20 and cries for help. Most of the detainees, including the witness's
21 father, never returned.
22 The witness was also taken for interrogation, during which he was
23 beaten and a knife was held to his throat, and a loaded gun to his head,
24 and one of the interrogators threatened him to answer or he would pick
25 his eyes out and cut off his ears and throat. After 20 minutes, the
1 witness was thrown into a dark room full of interrogated people.
2 Your Honour, at this point can we move into private session.
3 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, with your permission, I would like to
6 proceed with questions regarding the statement to the witness.
7 Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Examination by Ms. Prasad:
9 Q. Witness, did you give a statement on 18 March 1995 to the
10 Ministry of Interior, Mostar Security Services?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And then on 13 June 2004
13 of this Tribunal?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review your written statement in
16 your own language?
17 A. I looked through my statement, yes, in my own language.
18 MS. PRASAD: Usher, could you please display a hard copy of the
19 B/C/S version of the statement dated 18 March 1995, and we can hand a
20 copy to the witness, bearing 65 ter number 5035B. And, please, it's not
21 to be broadcasted, the statement. Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, could you look at the first page of the B/C/S statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, I wanted to check if he has the 1995
25 statement, dated 18 March 1995
1 1995 -- 18th March 1995
2 Q. Witness, could you look at the first page of the statement. Do
3 you recognise your signature at the bottom of the page?
4 A. Yes, that's my signature.
5 Q. Please flip through the pages and look at page 11 of the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recognise your signature?
9 A. Yes, I do recognise my signature.
10 MS. PRASAD: Now, Usher, can you please hand out the hard copy of
11 the English and the B/C/S version of the statement dated 13 June 2004.
12 Q. Witness, do you recognise your signature on the first page of the
13 English version?
14 A. Yes, I do recognise my signature.
15 Q. Can you flip through the pages and turn to page 7?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise your signature?
18 A. Yes, I do recognise my signature.
19 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, I would like to bring to your
20 attention that the B/C/S version of the 13 June 2004 statement was signed
21 by the witness subsequently in November 2004, bearing ERN
22 0363-1619 - 0363-1627. This range is different from the ERN range that
23 was granted pursuant to the DC decision.
24 Q. Witness, do these statements together accurately reflect your
25 recollection of the events described in it?
1 A. Yes, they accurately reflect what I remember.
2 Q. And if you were asked questions about those events today, would
3 you give the same answers that are contained in the statement?
4 A. Yes, I would give the same answers.
5 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, we would move for the admission, under
6 seal, of the two written statements of the witness, dated 18 March 1995
7 and 13 June 2004
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give two MFI
9 numbers, because the trier will have to hand down a decision as to the
10 final tendering into evidence. Two MFI numbers.
11 THE REGISTRAR: P658 and P659, both MFI'd, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Under seal?
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... statement
14 will become Exhibit P658 and the 2004 statement will become Exhibit P659,
15 both marked for identification.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed. But remember that it
17 should be under seal, because this is a protected witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have to keep
20 everything in mind.
21 Madam Prosecutor.
22 MS. PRASAD: Your Honours, with your permission, I would like to
23 ask the witness two questions in private session.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 12273-12279 redacted. Private session.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of
23 November, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.