Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12518

 1                           Wednesday, 3 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Vojislav Seselj.

12             Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             This is Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, and I welcome our witness,

15     first and foremost; and then I also welcome the representatives of

16     the OTP, Mr. Seselj, and everyone helping us.

17             Witness, could you please give me your name, surname, and date of

18     birth.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sulejman Tihic, the 26th of

20     November, 1951.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You are born

22     November 26th, 1951.  So you were born on November 26th, 1951.

23             Can you tell me, what is your occupation at the moment.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, now I am the deputy speaker

25     of the Chamber of Nations of the Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

Page 12519

 1     I'm president of the Party of Democratic Action.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified in

 3     this court; and if so, can you tell us which case, if you remember?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I testified several times:

 5     The first time in Mr. Tadic's case; the second time in the case against

 6     Blagoje Simic, or, rather, the Samac group; and the third time in the

 7     case against Slobodan Milosevic.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were you testifying for the

 9     Prosecution or the Defence in these three cases?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Prosecution witness.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you please

12     read the solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN TIHIC

16                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

18             Let me give you some details.  I'm sure they won't surprise you,

19     since you've already testified a number of times in this Tribunal, over

20     several days, so you know exactly how things happen here.

21             You will be asked questions by the representatives of the OTP,

22     and you must answer these questions.  These questions will be put to you

23     based on the statement that you made at the OTP, and I believe that the

24     OTP will also submit some documents to you.  And during your proofing

25     session yesterday with the Prosecution, you must have looked through a

Page 12520

 1     number of documents also.

 2             Then after this first phase, Mr. Seselj, the accused in these

 3     proceedings, will also put questions to you, and that will be the

 4     cross-examination.  Mr. Seselj, being self-represented, as the

 5     late-Milosevic did, he will be directly asking questions to you.

 6             The three Judges on the Bench in front of you will also be asking

 7     questions in order to shed light on a number of items or to bridge some

 8     gaps that they may discover in some events.

 9             Try to be extremely brief and very concise in your answers.  But

10     given your background, I'm absolutely sure, yes, you will be very

11     concise.  If you don't understand a question, just ask the person putting

12     the question to you to reformulate it, even if it's a Judge.  Sometimes

13     Judges don't formulate their questions extremely well, so that can

14     happen, so just ask for reformulation.

15             We have 20-minute breaks every hour and a half; but if you feel

16     ill at ease and you want a break, just raise your hand and we'll allow

17     you a break.

18             The Prosecution has two hours for its examination-in-chief,

19     Mr. Seselj has two hours for the cross-examination, so it's almost sure

20     that we'll have to continue tomorrow.  I'm sure that you made the

21     necessary arrangements so that you could stay until tomorrow.

22             So in a nutshell, that's how the hearing is going to occur, and I

23     hope it will run smoothly.

24             I welcome our representative of the OTP.  He's ready, he's got

25     his lectern.

Page 12521

 1             So now, Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

 3             I want to start directly with the examination-in-chief.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

 5        Q.   So, Mr. Tihic, could you describe for us your professional

 6     background.  Did you study; and if so, when and where?  What was your

 7     occupation later on?

 8        A.   I completed elementary and secondary school in Bosanski Samac.  I

 9     graduated from law school at the University of Sarajevo.  After I passed

10     the Bar exam, I was elected judge at the municipal court at Bosanski

11     Samac.  After that, I was prosecutor for Madrica, Bosanski Samac, and

12     Odzak.  After that, I worked as a lawyer for nine years.

13             After the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, for a while I

14     worked at the embassy in Bonn as a councillor there, and after that in

15     the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  After that, I was vice-president of the

16     SDA.  I won in the election of 2002, and I was elected a member of the

17     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  After that, I held the office of

18     deputy speaker and speaker of the Chamber of Nations of the Parliament of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I am the president of the Party of Democratic

20     Action, the SDA, the largest party in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I have been

21     that since 2001.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.  Could you please explain us if you have

23     already been engaged in politics before the outbreak of the conflict; and

24     if so, in which party?

25        A.   At that time -- or, rather, before the democratic changes, I was,

Page 12522

 1     like many others, a member of the League of Communists, just an ordinary

 2     member.  At the same time, I was socially active by being president of

 3     the Local Commune in Samac, also president of the Firefighting

 4     Association of Bosanski Samac.  Before the first democratic elections, I

 5     joined the Party of Democratic Action.  I was elected a member -- a

 6     councilman of the Assembly of Municipality of Bosanski Samac.  After

 7     that, I elected the president of the Municipal Organisation of Bosanski

 8     Samac, and a member of the main board of the SDA party for all of

 9     Yugoslavia.

10             What happened afterwards is what I've already told you about.

11        Q.   Did you also have a position in the Doboj region?

12        A.   I was vice-president of the Regional Board of the SDA for the

13     region of Doboj.

14        Q.   Given your position and your function today, I think you are in a

15     position to tell us a bit more about the ethnic composition of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina; and for that reason.  I would like to introduce a document.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could you please call up Exhibit

18     number 140 on the Exhibit list.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, I would like you to have a look on this document,

20     when it shows up, and comment on it.  Thank you.

21        A.   Well, yes.  This is a well-known map.  It tentatively reflects

22     the ethnic structure of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina; although,

23     perhaps, if somebody is totally unfamiliar with the facts, it might seem

24     that Bosnia-Herzegovina is divided along national or ethnic lines.

25     However, that is not the case.

Page 12523

 1             Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or, rather, the ethnic structure of its

 2     population is such that it is mixed.  Where you see the colour green

 3     here, denoting the Bosniak Muslims, and the colour red, depicting the

 4     Serbs, and blue, Croats, there were still representatives of many other

 5     ethnic groups or other nations in those areas.  There are very few

 6     municipalities where one particular ethnic group dominated over the

 7     other.

 8             If we look at this map, it is a fact that there are some small

 9     deviations; for example, look at Banja LukaBanja Luka is depicted as

10     if its population is -- or, rather, that it's population was 50 per cent

11     Serb in 1991.  Serbs, Bosniaks, and Croats were there roughly in equal

12     numbers, around 30 per cent.  Perhaps there could have been a bit more

13     Croats or a bit more Serbs, but I'm not sure about that.  At any rate,

14     that's what it was like, and it was similar in other towns.  Because in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina, for centuries in all towns in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     there was a coexistence between Catholic churches and mosques, and

17     Orthodox churches, and synagogues.  The population looked like a leopard

18     skin, as it were.  It wasn't like this, just red, just blue, just green.

19     It was all mixed, all of it was mixed, up until the aggression against

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   But as this map is based on the population census of 1991, could

22     you say if the colours are correct, as they reflect the regions?

23        A.   Well, roughly, yes.  I mentioned Banja Luka a moment ago.  I

24     don't think that colour is not exactly right.  I don't think it was

25     50 per cent Serb.  Possibly there was a Serb majority, but not around

Page 12524

 1     50 per cent.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecution had to

 3     give us a survey of the population in accordance with the census of 1991,

 4     not to put this map here and to have the witness speculate.  The fact

 5     that he's asking the witness to speculate is -- means there is no

 6     probative value involved in this whatsoever.  We have to look at the

 7     results of the census for Banja Luka and then to see exactly what the

 8     figures were.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I heard what you were

10     saying, and it seems that the chart we have on the screen reflects the

11     1991 census, but the criteria used is a 50 per cent majority.  You told

12     us, and it was quite interesting, you told us that according to you, the

13     colours don't really reflect the fact that in some areas, there were

14     minorities; and as you said, it would be more accurate to see a leopard

15     skin, in your words.

16             So, according to you, don't you think that such a map should have

17     different colours that could stress the ethnic majorities?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that should have been

19     done from the very outset.  You know, in addition to having a dominant

20     colour, other colours should be represented on a particular surface,

21     other ethnic groups, other national groups, because that would reflect

22     the true situation.  In this way, there was this politicization, as if

23     some areas were Serb, Croat or Bosniak, which was not a good thing.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  All

25     this is on the record.

Page 12525

 1             Now please continue, Mr. Mussemeyer.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The intention of the Prosecution is to use this

 3     map to give a rough overview to assist the Judges in their findings later

 4     on, so this is the reason I would ask to tender this document into

 5     evidence.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give it a number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document shall be given Exhibit

 9     number P669.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, on this map, I

11     see that this map was drafted by the OTP, by the Demographics Unit of

12     the OTP.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes.  As far as I know, it's written in the

14     footnote, and it is based on the results of the census of 1991, as I

15     already said.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to continue with the

18     next map.  This is a map for Bosanski Samac.  It has the 65 ter

19     number 2579.  Could you please call it on the monitor.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, I would like you to look at this map and comment

21     on this.

22        A.   All right.  Well, this is a map of the Posavina region; that is

23     to say, a group of municipalities, so it's not only the municipality of

24     Bosanski Samac.  The municipality of Bosanski Samac is here in the middle

25     and is shown in that way.

Page 12526

 1        Q.   Would you show us if Sagrina [phoen], for example --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Why are some names

 3     blackened out in this map?  We see that names of many places have simply

 4     been redacted, deleted.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, there are black

 6     lines and it looks like some names have been crossed out, probably for a

 7     reason.  Could you explain?

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think the reason is that these municipalities

 9     or towns are not important for this case.  All the municipalities or

10     little villages around Bosanski Samac are mentioned here just to give a

11     rough overview to the Judges.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what is redacted

13     here is also a town that is in Bosanski Samac, and that is why this

14     explanation provided by the Prosecutor is not a truthful one.  You see

15     here, within the municipality of Bosanski Samac, a town or a village was

16     blackened.  I insist that the Prosecution give us a clean map without any

17     redactions.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Give us the name of the

19     municipality that was crossed out.  Which one was omitted, Mr. Seselj?

20     Can you help us?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not say that a municipality

22     was omitted.  We have the region of Posavina here on this map.  That's

23     what it was called.  I can't remember now exactly.  We see there the

24     municipality of Bosanski Samac and surrounding municipalities, and then

25     we see two, four, six, seven names of towns and villages that were

Page 12527

 1     blackened out by a magic marker.  This is a mockery of the Prosecution

 2     case.  And in Bosanski Samac, one particular name was redacted, too.

 3     Why?  That is impermissible.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, would you have

 5     a blank map without anything crossed out?

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have a map.  I must only search it.  Just give

 7     me a second.  I think it's the map 2874 on the exhibit list, but I did

 8     not check this.

 9             But the reason for blackening out is that Bosanski Samac is a

10     so-called removed municipality where the Prosecution is allowed only to

11     lead pattern evidence, so we concentrated on the locations which are

12     important for the indictment to show pattern evidence.  But if the Judges

13     and the accused insist, we have nothing to hide to show you the exact map

14     of this region.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Show us another map, please,

16     with unredacted cities.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

18     by the Prosecutor makes even less sense than the previous one.

19     Bosanski Brod is still on the map, too, the utmost west, and then Dervent

20     and so on.  He did not provide an explanation as to why the names of some

21     towns and villages close to Bosanski Samac and within the municipality of

22     Bosanski Samac itself were crossed out with a magic marker.  I don't

23     think that you can accept nonsensical explanations provided by the

24     Prosecutor.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now we have a new map.

Page 12528

 1     Mr. Prosecutor, we have a new map.  Nothing is crossed out.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I observe, Mr. President,

 3     that Crkvina was redacted on the previous map.  I could not tell a few

 4     moments ago; I could not know everything by heart.  Now I see that

 5     Crkvina was redacted, and Crkvina is mentioned in Mr. Tihic's statement.

 6     Why did the Prosecution cross this out?  Are they trying to ambush me or

 7     anyone else in this way?  Look, Crkvina is here in the center of this

 8     map, and it was deleted in the previous map.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, we have a map

10     with all municipalities with red dots.  Fine.  Given the objections, do

11     you still want to work with the first map, or can you work with the

12     second one?

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have nothing against using the second map.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  Use the

15     second, then.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

17        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you have a look on this and comment on this map?

18        A.   This is a map of Bosanski Samac, and we see here the contours of

19     the neighbouring municipalities.  We have all the villages here that were

20     referred to.  We have the village of Crkvina, where the mass crime

21     occurred.  I don't know what else you would be interested in.  I can

22     explain all of this, of course.  I know the territory of Samac very well.

23     I practiced law there, and I went to all these different villages and I

24     socialised with people.  I went hunting and so on.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tihic, just one little thing for

Page 12529

 1     clarification on the map.  It looks as if the area north of the river is

 2     just blank, and my question to you is:  Did the village of Bosanski Samac

 3     stretch over to the other side of the river?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up here is the Sava River.  On the

 5     other side of the Sava River is the Republic of Croatia.  There was

 6     another village on the other side called Slavonski Samac.

 7     Administratively and politically, it was not linked to Bosanski Samac.

 8     It belonged to Croatia.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, this map is labelled

11     "Bosanski Samac."  I would like to know whether the entire green area

12     corresponds to the administrative municipality of Bosanski Samac or

13     whether the Bosanski Samac municipality is only the red dot, or the

14     yellow area.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The colour yellow denotes the town

16     only; whereas, the municipality of Bosanski Samac is all the rest, and

17     these red dots are different villages and local communes in the

18     municipality of Bosanski Samac.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

21        Q.   Mr. Tihic, now I want to come to the situation before the

22     outbreak of the war.  Can you please roughly describe to us the ethnic

23     distribution and the different ethnicities living in Bosanski Samac?

24        A.   In the municipality of Bosanski Samac, the ethnic composition was

25     approximately as follows:  44 per cent were Croats, 42 per cent were

Page 12530

 1     Serbs, about 7 per cent were Bosniaks, and then the rest were Yugoslavs

 2     and others.  In the town of Bosanski Samac itself, the ethnic composition

 3     was somewhat different because the Bosniaks were predominant there, and

 4     then Serbs, and then Croats.  The villages were mostly mono-ethnic, and

 5     the town had a mixed population.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us how was the relationship between these different

 7     ethnicities before the outbreak of the conflict?

 8        A.   In Bosanski Samac, inter-ethnic relations were always good.  We

 9     lived together.  We visited each other when religious holidays occurred

10     in any one of the communities.  I regularly went to Christmas

11     celebrations, patron saints celebrations; and then on the occasion of

12     Bajram, others would come to see me.  The president of the SDS and the

13     president of the HDZ visited me on the 6th of April for the Bajram

14     holiday, and Bosanski Samac was attacked only on the 17th of April.

15             According to what people told us as to what happened during the

16     Second World War, in Bosanski Samac, the relations that prevailed were

17     rather good as opposed to other areas.  We lived together, we socialised.

18     We respected one another.  I'm convinced that not only in Bosanski Samac,

19     but primarily in Bosanski Samac and throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, there

20     never would have been a conflict between the Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks

21     had there not been an intervention from the outside.  That's the way it

22     was through history, as an effect of world wars, regional conflicts, or

23     direct interference from neighbouring countries.

24             Even after this war, I've been going to Bosanski Samac very

25     often.  My child lives in Bosanski Samac, my grandchildren live in

Page 12531

 1     Bosanski Samac.  I see that this tolerance and coexistence is being

 2     restored, and I hope that that will be the case in the future as well.

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, obviously there existed also a council of security in

 4     Bosanski Samac.  Can you confirm this, and who was the member, and what

 5     was the goal of this council?

 6        A.   Well, in all the municipalities throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     and I do believe in other republics as well, there were security councils

 8     and councils for defence.  These were the two most important bodies of

 9     every assembly, and it was made up mostly of respected citizens,

10     politicians of the day.  They discussed security situations at their

11     meetings prior to the events; crime, public law and order, things like

12     that; if there was some internal enemy or external enemy as was referred

13     to at those times.

14             And, mostly, at the period that we're discussing, we dealt with

15     trying to avoid an inter-ethnic clash and conflict.  We tried to solve

16     various situations of various incidents and see that rumours weren't

17     spread about or fears, to allay fears, and things like that.  We tried to

18     convince people that the situation should remain calm and conflict should

19     be avoided.  That was our goal.  But nobody asked us much.  Had people

20     asked us in Samac, I'm quite sure that no conflict would have taken

21     place.  It all came from outside.

22        Q.   At the beginning of the 1990s, obviously political parties have

23     been founded.  Can you tell us if this is true, and which parties were

24     that?

25        A.   Well, that was a time of the first multi-party democratic

Page 12532

 1     elections, as we referred to them at that time.  Parties were set up as

 2     branches or departments of the parties that had already been formed at a

 3     republican level -- or, rather, at the level of the state.  So in

 4     addition to the previous League of Communists that existed, the Serbian

 5     Democratic Party was set up, and the Party of Democratic Action, the

 6     Croatian Democratic Union, the Reformist Party, the Liberal Party, and so

 7     on and so forth.  The HDZ, SDS, and SDA were treated as being national

 8     ethnic parties, parties of those particular nations and ethnicities.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a short question for you,

10     Witness.

11             You are saying that everything came from outside.  What do you

12     mean by that?  When you say "from outside," as opposed to the former

13     Yugoslavia, or do you mean "from outside" as opposed to

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Externally in relation to

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Mostly, it came from Belgrade, from the Serb side,

17     that is; the JNA or centres of that kind.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

20        Q.   What was the relationship between the parties, and did they have

21     a common goal?

22        A.   At the beginning, relations were quite proper, good relations,

23     and the aim was to replace the communists, to seize power from the

24     communists, and to resolve certain ethnic questions along the way.

25     However, as time passed and as the situation throughout Yugoslavia

Page 12533

 1     deteriorated, we began discussing general questions more and discuss

 2     local questions less, and the differences at a general level between the

 3     parties, and these were reflected at a local level as well.

 4             We went further and further into the realm of division, and

 5     differences came to the fore.  The Serb side wanted to retain Yugoslavia

 6     at all costs, the kind of Yugoslavia that would have a unitarian

 7     character with a strong centralised power and authority.  The SDA and

 8     the HDZ were in favour of a different kind of Yugoslavia.  The HDZ was in

 9     favour of a greater degree of independence and autonomy and full

10     independence ultimately.  The SDA wanted to retain Yugoslavia as a form

11     of confederation or federation or staggered confederation.

12             We were conscious of the fact that Bosniaks, as a nation and as

13     an ethnicity, did not have the strength and power to confront the other

14     side, and that they would be the biggest victims.  President Izetbegovic

15     did all he could took retain Yugoslavia and to prevent conflicts of that

16     kind from taking place.  So together with the President Gregoric of the

17     Macedonia, he proposed various forms of confederation and federation and

18     to preserve Yugoslavia as far as possible.

19        Q.   Has there also been a TO unit in Bosanski Samac?

20        A.   In the former Yugoslavia, in addition to the armed forces or,

21     rather, the JNA, you have the system of territorial defence; and, for the

22     most part, that system came under the power and authority of the

23     republics.  Each municipality had its own Territorial Defence Staff, and

24     then there was the Territorial Defence Staff in the republic.  There was

25     one in Samac and one in Sarajevo, which was the Republican Staff.  Those

Page 12534

 1     staffs had their units, they had their weapons.  At sometime, I think it

 2     was in 1990, that pursuant to a decision by the JNA or some state organ,

 3     the weapons were taken away from the Territorial Defence and moved to JNA

 4     depots and warehouses.

 5        Q.   Has there been founded a special unit in Bosanski Samac at that

 6     time?

 7        A.   Well, the Territorial Defence Staff was formed, but it wasn't

 8     really working.  Then the Republican Staff of Territorial Defence

 9     appointed a new commander and a new chief, Bozanovic Marko, and I think

10     Alija Fitozovic was the second man.  They started putting the documents

11     in order, bringing data and information up to date, and then Samac was on

12     the agenda.  But, actually, it never -- it was never operational in the

13     proper sense.

14        Q.   As far as I'm informed, there was founded a unit which got a

15     number.  Do you remember this?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.  There was a unit that was established by the

17     JNA.  I was in that unit -- or, rather, a garrison of the JNA from Brcko

18     was set up, and it was called the 4th Detachment, I think, of the

19     17th Tactical Group, something like that.  That unit numbered about 400

20     men, mostly Serbs, but there were Bosniaks and Croats among them, too.

21     They were issued quite a lot of weapons, heavy weapons, well, for that

22     time, and they had automatic rifles, machine-guns, cannons, hand-held

23     launchers and so on.

24             This gave rise to a lot of unrest in the town, and they were

25     under the direct command of the JNA, that detachment, I mean; although,

Page 12535

 1     they were made up of civilians, and civilians of Bosanski Samac.  A lot

 2     of those civilians had been in the army previously, or in the police

 3     force, or in the security services generally.  So the detachment was

 4     formed of their family members, too, close relations, and so on and so

 5     forth.

 6        Q.   What reason was given to found this 4th Detachment?

 7        A.   Well, the reason that was publicly bandied about was that the

 8     detachment was there to prevent inter-ethnic clashes and to eliminate any

 9     attempts that might be made on the part of the paramilitaries to attack

10     Bosanski Samac, including certain units from Croatia which could possibly

11     attack Bosanski Samac.  That was what the public was told, so that some

12     people, believing that to be true, joined up, joined the detachment,

13     people who believed that Yugoslavia could be preserved and who believed

14     in the Yugoslav People's Army as being a joint army of all the peoples

15     and citizens of the country.

16             However, in reality, things were quite different.  That

17     detachment, and we found that to be true when the attack on

18     Bosanski Samac was launched, was to prolong the politics and policies of

19     Belgrade and Greater Serbia, and with the other units took part in the

20     occupation of Bosanski Samac, in actual fact.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

22             Mr. Registrar, I would like to show to the witness now the

23     document with the number 996, 65 ter number 996.  This is a decision on

24     the establishment of the Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac.

25        Q.   And when it shows up, I would like, Mr. Tihic, you to read until

Page 12536

 1     the first sentence of paragraph 2 -- of Article 2.  Excuse me.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, there must be a

 3     mistake in the transcript.  The number indicated is 966 and not 996.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It's true.  It was vice versa; it's 996.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It depends how you read it, of

 6     course.  996.  Fine.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you please read until the first sentence of

 9     Article 2?

10        A.   Yes, I can.  You want the first sentence:

11             "On the basis of Article 256 of the [indiscernible] BiH and from

12     the area of Bosanski Samac, Gradacac, Orasje, and Odzak, which was

13     expressed at the referendum held on the 9th and 10th of November, 1991,

14     and pursuant to the decision on the establishment of the Serbian Republic

15     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 29th of February, 1992, the Assembly of

16     the Serbian People adopted the decision on the establishment of the

17     Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac and the Serbian municipality of

18     Pelagicevo, in the process of being established.

19             "Article 1.  The Serbian municipalities of Bosanski Samac and

20     Pelagicevo shall be established.  The seat of the municipality shall be

21     in Bosanski Samac."

22        Q.   And the first sentence of Article 2, please, also.

23        A.   "The Serbian municipalities of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo

24     shall comprise the following settlements:  Bosanski Samac ..." --

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.  I wanted to stop here.  Do you know this

Page 12537

 1     decision, and what is your comment about this?

 2        A.   Yes.  I am aware of that decision, and my comment is that the

 3     decision is contrary to the Constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina; the

 4     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.  It was established

 5     bypassing the regular procedure on the establishment of municipalities,

 6     because as you can see here, they sat down and decided that, and it was

 7     only the deputies of the Serbian Democratic Party; that is to say, one

 8     party made this decision, plus some other deputies from some other

 9     parties that wanted to come.

10             But we don't see any deputies from Croatia, or other Bosniaks, or

11     other ethnic group, for that matter.  So a decision of that kind was not

12     legally valid.  It was just a contribution to the clashes and divisions.

13     And as you can see here, they changed the names -- place names, and added

14     Serbian in front:  "Serbian Gradacac," "Srpski" -- "Srpska Korenica,"

15     "Srpska Ledenica," and so on and so forth, "Srpska Slenje [phoen],"

16     "Slatina."

17             None of these places existed with the word "Srpski," "Serbian,"

18     in front, so there was no -- this could not be done lawfully.  They

19     encroached upon our territory, some local communities which were not

20     exclusively made up of a Serb population.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, for once, we have a

22     witness who's special insofar as you are a prominent political

23     figurehead.  You were a lawyer, you were a judge, and you were a

24     prosecutor.  So we have a lawyer in front of us.

25             It hasn't escaped me that in this document, some municipalities

Page 12538

 1     were changed and the word "Serbian" was added on to them.  But in looking

 2     at this text, we see that there is a special mention of Article 258 of

 3     the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

 4     don't have the constitutional text before me, but what does this

 5     Article 258 actually state?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that that was the legal

 7     basis for establishing the municipalities; however, that was just a

 8     general legal premise, allowing for the formation of municipalities.  And

 9     from those general legal conditions, you have the law on the territorial

10     organisation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which provides for

11     the exact conditions according to which individual municipalities may be

12     set up.  So this is just a general condition, and then the law goes on

13     and stipulates the conditions and procedures under which this is to be

14     done.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I think that the

16     Prosecutor ought to show us this Article 258 of the Constitution to avoid

17     speculation and suppositions on the part of the witness, and the

18     Prosecution does possess the entire Constitution of the Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber can also look

21     up Article 258, and I'm sure our legal officer is currently doing this.

22             Irrespective of this, Witness, it seems that in this text, there

23     is something unprecedented here, i.e., there is the Socialist Republic of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina which had a legal existence.  But on the 29th of

25     February, the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was established,

Page 12539

 1     even though the referendum had taken place, as the text states, on the

 2     9th and 10th of November, 1991.  There had also been the declaration of

 3     independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4             Since you are a lawyer, according to you, which document should

 5     prevail in this matter?  From what I understood, it was the Constitution

 6     of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So please tell us, what is

 7     the date?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I want to say that

 9     this referendum that is referred to in the preamble of this decision was

10     an unlawful referendum which was held on the 9th and 10th of November,

11     1991, and that the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that decision,

12     that it was the Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina who declared

13     it null and void.  So that decision was not in keeping with the

14     Constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina either.

15             So the whole legal premise upon which this preamble is based was

16     declared null and void by the Constitutional Court, and the decision was

17     declared null and void.  Now, the referendum on Bosnia's independence was

18     on the 21st of February and the 1st of March, 1992, and that is something

19     quite different and is not mentioned in this decision.

20             Otherwise, no laws at the time or any laws now in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina allowed for municipalities to have any ethnic

22     epithets, not Serbian, not Bosniak, not Croatian, so all these names that

23     were with the epithet Serbians, Serbian Sarajevo, Serbian et cetera,

24     et cetera, all these places, and Constitutional Court of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina overthrew and declared null and void because they were

Page 12540

 1     deemed to be contrary to the Human Rights Declaration.  And even today in

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina, you can't name a place after an ethnic group,

 3     because that is contrary to the Constitution and the European Convention

 4     on Human Rights and Freedoms as well.

 5             So this decision is completely unlawful, completely illegal.

 6     It's just a group of people gathered together, proclaiming these

 7     municipalities and the Republic of the Serbian people.  This was quite

 8     illegal, quite unlawful, and as I said, the Constitutional Court of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina overthrew it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you please read also Article 8 of this

13     decision?

14        A.   "The official-som [as interpreted] workers and workers with

15     special authority and workers in the organs of administration,

16     organisations, institutions and funds, shall retain ..."

17             Can you show the bottom of that?

18             "... senior officials, management, and employees with special

19     authority and employees of Serbian nationality in the administrative

20     bodies, organisations, institutions, and funds, shall retain their posts,

21     rights, and duties until the definitive distribution of assets has been

22     determined ," which means that it speaks about Serbs again.

23             Decisions like that were passed throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24     and all the members of other nations, other ethnic groups, that worked as

25     employees, or in management, or whatever, remained without a job.  They

Page 12541

 1     were dismissed.  The only people retained were representatives of the

 2     Serbian people, and that is proof yet again of just how far this decision

 3     was unlawful, because this is what they wrote.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to move this

 5     document into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give this document an

 7     exhibit number, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 9     Exhibit number P670.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

11        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I would like to go now to the situation before the

12     attack on Bosanski Samac.  Had there been rumours spread in the village;

13     and if so, what kind of rumours?

14        A.   I'll tell you about the situation in town, and I assume it was

15     similar in the villages.  But rumours did go round about an attack and

16     the fact that Bosanski Samac, as a municipality and a town, would be

17     taken over.  The rumours were different, there were different rumours

18     going around.  They ranged from people saying that units of the Serbian

19     Territorial Defence and JNA would come and take control of Samac; to the

20     other end, that Croatian units that were stationed in Slavonski Samac

21     would cross the river and take control of Bosanski Samac.  The Serbs were

22     afraid that this might be done from units -- by units from Croatia,

23     taking into account the experience of Bosanski Brod.

24             So those were their fears, and those were the information -- that

25     was the information they had.  Those were those rumours.  We were afraid

Page 12542

 1     of both.  We didn't want anybody to take control of Bosanski Samac, not

 2     the Croatian units, or the Serb units, or the JNA.  We wanted

 3     Bosanski Samac to remain Bosnian and not belong to one ethnicity, neither

 4     the Serb nor Croatian ethnicity.

 5             But as I said, these rumours were very frequent, and we became

 6     accustomed to them.  There were all kinds of rumours going around, and we

 7     thought nobody would be mad enough to attack and occupy Samac because

 8     that would mean war, that would mean suffering and casualties.  But we

 9     got so used to hearing those rumours that we didn't attach the importance

10     that we ought to have attached to them.  We turned a blind eye.

11        Q.   Did you undertake something to organise a defence?

12        A.   Well, it was like this, and I'm now speaking as a Bosniak:  We

13     were in the minority there in Bosanski Samac, about 7 per cent of us; and

14     rumours kept reaching us that the Serbs were arming themselves, that the

15     JNA had distributed weapons to them, as indeed it had, and that the

16     Croatians were being armed through Croatia.

17             What were we Muslim Bosniaks going to do?  We'll be the victims

18     in all of this.  Then we started thinking about what we could to.  We

19     started organising ourselves, conscious of the fact that any organisation

20     on our part would not be on a level with what the other ethnicities were

21     doing, because they were far more numerous.  I gave you the percentages

22     earlier on; 45 per cent Croats, 42 per cent Serbs, and 7 per cent of

23     Bosniaks.  The Croats, in a way, relied on Croatia; the Serbs relied on

24     the JNA; and what could we Bosniaks do, faced with a situation like that?

25             But, anyway, we organised some guards that we set up at the

Page 12543

 1     entrance to Bosanski Samac to prevent any paramilitary units entering and

 2     causing mayhem, killing the population, and things like that.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document

 4     under 65 ter number 1117 to be shown on the monitor.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, when you see this document, could you please tell

 6     us what it is about?

 7        A.   This is a letter or a document sent to the Municipal Staff of the

 8     Territorial Defence; and, along with it, there was a list of all those

 9     who wished to be included into the defence of Bosanski Samac, because we,

10     as Bosniaks, thought it was a good idea for the Territorial Defence Staff

11     to function and that it should be a legal institution, without setting up

12     any party, armies, or ethnic armies, or anything like that.

13             I think you must have the list attached to this letter with the

14     names of people who were ready to join the Territorial Defence Staff and

15     act for it in Bosanski Samac.  I think there might have been about 100

16     names on the list.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  They are on the following pages, just for the

18     information of the Judges.  There you can see a list with many names.

19             Mr. President, I would like to have this document moved into

20     evidence.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do believe that this list should

22     be shown.  It is very important for the public, not just to be tendered

23     into evidence.  Let it be shown to the public that the list contains

24     exclusively Muslim names.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, this was the question I

Page 12544

 1     was going to put to you, if Mr. Seselj hadn't taken the floor.

 2             While you were answering the Prosecutor, I was reviewing this

 3     list.  I note that there are 212 names on it.  And unless I'm mistaken,

 4     we see the allocation of these people in several units, and you're

 5     number 1 on that list, and I see Brigade number 3.  I took due note of

 6     the fact that there were 7 per cent Muslims, so you were a small

 7     minority, but you felt that you should set up an entirely Muslim TO.  But

 8     you might tell us that there are also some Serbs and Croats in this list;

 9     I don't know.

10             But tell us exactly how it came to be that in such a situation,

11     with a 7 per cent minority, you can come up with an armed forces.  So,

12     please, first tell us whether these 212 people are all Muslims; and,

13     secondly, tell us what was the purpose of the force that was to be

14     set up.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly, predominantly, there were

16     Muslims, but there were also members of other ethnic groups.  You can see

17     and judge by their names, and people living in Bosnia can recognise

18     Muslim names, names of Orthodox Christians and Catholics.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are several Croats, but I

20     could not see a single Serb, judging by the names.  If Mr. Tihic knows of

21     a Serb there, he can name them.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I continue my answer?

23             We submitted a list of Bosniaks who were ready to join the

24     Territorial Defence Staff, and the Staff comprised members of both Croat

25     and Serb ethnic groups as well.  We expected, on the part of Croats and

Page 12545

 1     Serbs, to provide lists containing thousands of people.  We did not

 2     pretend for the Territorial Defence Staff to comprise only Muslims,

 3     because we were only 7 per cent of the population; and Serbs and Croats

 4     were supposed to submit their lists numbering 1.000, 2.000 names each.

 5             We could include on the list those citizens of the town of

 6     Bosanski Samac, who are predominantly Muslims, who contacted us and

 7     wanted to be made available; and we expected the Serbs and the Croats to

 8     submit more numerous lists because they were the majority peoples in that

 9     area-

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tell us whether there were any

11     Serbs on this list.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up a bit, please,

13     so I can see the last page here.  Let's go to the next page, please.  Can

14     we have the next page, please.  Next page, please.  Next page, please.

15     Next page, please.

16             I haven't recognised a single Serb name on this list.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

18     number.  I believe Mr. Mussemeyer wanted to tender this document with the

19     list.

20             Mr. Registrar, could we have a number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

22     Exhibit number P671.  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one note.  I

24     believe it will be interesting and important that there are only six

25     Croats on this list, out of 212, and not a single Serb.

Page 12546

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's on the record.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you please let us know if you and your

 4     neighbours realised a kind of strange behaviour of your Serb neighbours

 5     at that time?

 6        A.   Strange?  Well, there were divisions opening up, generally

 7     speaking, concerning the preservation of Yugoslavia.  Those differences

 8     appeared.  Strangely enough, over weekends, people would go back to their

 9     villages where they hailed from, out of fear, presumably, that somebody

10     would attack the town of Samac, and different people had different

11     information.  They followed generally the policies created by the Serb

12     leadership with respect to the future of the then and now ex-Yugoslavia.

13             There was some of them who disagreed with such policies, who were

14     concerned.  One who told me, as a lawyer - he was a client - he told me

15     that in the village of Batkusa, a helicopter of the JNA landed, carrying

16     some special unit wearing red berets, and that those men were very --

17     treated the villagers of Batkusa very roughly.  They beat up, allegedly,

18     the Serb guards who were guarding against the Croatian village of Luka.

19     Then after that both guards, Serbs and Croats, went to a cafe, and the

20     Red Berets beat them up and cut their hair as punishment, allegedly, for

21     drinking with the Croats instead of keeping guards against them.

22             They also meted out rough treatment towards the women, and their

23     arrival there was not met with general approval.

24        Q.   Could you please clarify.  You mentioned that people were leaving

25     the town on Friday.  Who left the town on Friday, all the ethnicities or

Page 12547

 1     specific ethnicities?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I do not remember

 3     Mr. Tihic saying that.  I demand a the Prosecutor to cite the lines on

 4     the transcript, with regard to departures over weekends.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I don't know what

 6     you say in your language, but you're not supposed to demand anything.

 7     You can request but don't demand, because in my own language, I had

 8     "demand," and you should only request.  It might be a problem with the

 9     translation of the word you used in B/C/S.

10             The interpreters are telling me that you did demand, but you're

11     not supposed to demand.  You can only request.

12             Witness, regarding this weekend, the story of the weekend, maybe

13     we got a little bit mixed up and I haven't really understood what you

14     said.  So please explain.  Either the people working in your city were

15     leaving for the villages because it was the weekend, and would come back

16     with information; or those were people who were in the villages and, over

17     the weekend, they came to the city maybe to do some shopping, and then

18     would relate and relay rumours.

19             So could you please explain what you meant?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually, over the weekend,

21     inhabitants of Bosanski Samac of Croat and Serb ethnicity, who lived

22     there in the town, would go to the villages, mono-ethnic villages, Serb

23     or Croat, together with their families, out of fear that Bosanski Samac

24     would be attacked either by the Croatian side or the Serbian side.

25     Rumours would be spread before the weekend came, so-called confidential

Page 12548

 1     information; and people, out of fear of being there when either Serb or

 2     Croat units attacked, would go back to their villages, feeling more

 3     secure, and then would come back to the town of Bosanski Samac on Monday

 4     to go to work.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you well, it

 6     was during all this shuttling, tos and fros, that you heard that the

 7     Red Berets had come with helicopters?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From a client in my office, law

 9     office, I found out that the Red Berets had arrived.  That man spoke

10     about that in confidence to me.  I mentioned him.  His name is in the

11     record.  I don't know whether I should repeat his name so that he could

12     make -- have problems because of that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's no need for this;

14     however, this detail is very important.  If the Red Berets did come with

15     a helicopter from the JNA, this seems to demonstrate that the army does

16     control this unit.  What can you say about this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  The army

18     controlled all those paramilitary units.  Those were not paramilitary

19     units; they were special units either of MUP of Serbia or of the JNA.

20     They maybe were not officially labelled as such, but nobody else could

21     have arrived on a JNA helicopter and have so much weapons.  So these were

22     special units operating pursuant to orders of either the police, the

23     military, or security services; and they wore military uniforms with some

24     other insignia other than that of the JNA.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to what you say, I

Page 12549

 1     seem to understand that these Red Berets were special units of the army.

 2     That's what you seem to be saying, and they were not paramilitaries.  But

 3     this is already a very important distinction.  Then you also added a

 4     small detail, and you said that these units might have come from the MUP.

 5             The MUP is the Ministry of Interior, it's not the Ministry of

 6     Defence; right?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, later I found out that

 8     those Red Berets were part of the MUP or Serbian police, police of the

 9     Republic of Serbia.  At that moment, they wore military uniforms, so I

10     thought they were part of the military.  But after the war, I learned

11     that the Red Berets had been part of the police of Serbia; and Zvezdan

12     Jovanovic, the person who killed Prime Minister Djindjic, used to be in

13     Bosanski Samac.  He was the warlord there.  He was the master of life and

14     death.  He mistreated people, looted whatever he could loot.  At the

15     time, he was a Serbian hero.  But in reality, he was a criminal, and

16     criminals do not have any nation or religious affiliation.  Eventually,

17     he killed a Serbian prime minister and was in Bosanski Samac during the

18     war.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you learned

20     later on that these Red Berets reported to the MUP.  But if Green Berets

21     from the MUP are transported on board army helicopters, does this mean

22     that the Ministry of Interior and Ministry of Defence, regarding this

23     special operation, were working in a coordinated fashion?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By all means, by all means; not

25     only in that situation, but throughout the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12550

 1     They worked hand in hand together.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             Mr. Mussemeyer.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 5        Q.   I would like to go a bit back in history just to follow the

 6     chronology.  Mr. Witness, you already mentioned that weapons were

 7     distributed.  To whom were they distributed, who did this, and did all

 8     the ethnicities get the weapons equally?

 9        A.   First of all, the JNA distributed the weapons; and mostly, almost

10     exclusively, they distributed them to members of the Serb people, and

11     their mobile units were mostly located in Serb villages in

12     Bosanski Samac.  And the 4th Detachment, which was in the town itself,

13     some 400 people in all, 80 per cent of the composition were Serbs,

14     20 per cent were others; and the JNA distributed weapons to them, and

15     some Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats got some of those weapons.  We

16     also tried to procure weapons, the Bosniaks.  I presume that the Croats

17     did so or tried to do so through Croatia.  But what we did have was

18     symbolic.

19             I remember a case where we received from Croatia 50 assault

20     rifles, automatic rifles; and I suggested that it be delivered to the

21     Territorial Defence Staff and that they should sign a receipt in a legal

22     and lawful manner and put some individuals in charge of those weapons,

23     because I feared that weapons may be used in an unofficial capacity or

24     for personal reasons, maybe in a cafe to settle an individual's cause.

25             There was always this fear, because there were some weapons, like

Page 12551

 1     hunting rifles and automatic rifles, there was this fear for those

 2     weapons to be misused or to cause an incident.  That's why we wanted the

 3     TO Staff to function, to be the lawful institution which would register

 4     all private weapons and put people in charge of them.

 5        Q.   What happened to the bridge in Bosanski Samac in the middle of

 6     April?

 7        A.   I believe that it was in mid-March, one month before the attack

 8     on Bosanski Samac, approximately, the bridge in Bosanski Samac was

 9     damaged by explosives.  It wasn't completely destroyed, but it was

10     damaged to the extent that no traffic could pass over it.  It's difficult

11     to say who did it.  Some thought and spread rumours that the JNA did it,

12     and the Serbs, some, said that it was done from the Croatian side.  But

13     the gist of the matter is that it didn't perform its functions.  It would

14     make more sense for the Serbs to have done that, because that bridge was

15     used for illegal trafficking of weapons entering Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16     and it was logical for the Serb side to try to stem the flow of weapons

17     into Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18             And in other parts along the Sava, there had been some blowing up

19     of the bridges, so the overall traffic was funneled through the Samac

20     bridge and maybe another one in a different place.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have the photo of

22     65 ter number 2235 on the monitor.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, does this depict the destroyed bridge?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's the bridge in Samac.  This is the road traffic

25     segment, and there was also the railway bridge, but it can't be seen on

Page 12552

 1     this photo.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to move this

 3     document into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

 5     number for this photograph of the bridge.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 7     Exhibit P672.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, before the outbreak of the conflict, did you realise

10     the arrival of strangers to the village?

11        A.   Yes, I noticed that.  It could be seen in the streets.  But

12     primarily it was seen in the cafes, that people using the Ekavian dialect

13     from Serbia were there and socialising with members of the

14     4th Detachment, and they were in civilian clothes, of course.  I heard

15     once that there were three people from the Croatian side who purported

16     and introduced them as members of the HOS, H-O-S, but I think that was a

17     single occasion.

18        Q.   How did you personally experience the outbreak of the conflict?

19     Please describe this to us.

20        A.   On that evening, I had some meetings.  The atmosphere in the town

21     was very tense.  There were rumours that Samac was about to be attacked,

22     and together with my wife from my house, and my brother with his wife, we

23     transferred to our mother's house.  And at around 2.00, intensive

24     shooting started.  Previously, there were instances of shooting, but this

25     time around it lasted a long time.  I looked out the window at one point,

Page 12553

 1     and I saw members of the 4th Detachment in the yard.  There were some

 2     other units.  That was around two or three.

 3             The members of my party came in a car and invited me to flee

 4     Bosanski Samac.  I rejected that suggestion because I thought I should

 5     stay with my people to talk, to negotiate with the Serb side.  I could

 6     not imagine what could happen.  I did not have that experience at the

 7     time.  Telephone communication was disrupted for a time, and phone lines

 8     were reconnected later on.

 9             In the morning, I called my neighbour of Serb ethnicity,

10     suggesting that I transfer to his home.  Given the situation, I had

11     realised that Samac was occupied.  Miso Pavlovic was that neighbour.  I

12     came to his place.  His father and mother were there as well.  We sat

13     down, we talked.  And at some other time Blagoje Simic, the president of

14     the SDS, phoned.  I tried to call -- talk to him in the way that we used

15     to talk, to the effect that:  "This all should stop.  Let's sit down and

16     agree."

17             By that time, the paramilitaries reportedly had killed somebody

18     in Mahala.  I suggested to Blagoje, "Let's sit down," but he said,

19     "There's no negotiations.  We're at war.  The Serbian people is at war

20     with the Bosniaks, with the Croats.  Surrender your weapons."  I did not

21     expect somebody who I had known to act in this way.  We socialised, we

22     had many contacts through political associations.

23             Then my neighbour suggested I should go somewhere else, where I

24     would be safer.  I phoned my colleague, Borislav Pisarevic.  He's a

25     lawyer.  We used to work at the Court together.  He was the president of

Page 12554

 1     the Court; I was a judge there.  We tried to arrange for my departure

 2     from Samac because I realised what a dangerous situation it was.  Boro

 3     came in the afternoon.  I was at my place with my wife.  Boro tried to

 4     get into contact with Simo Zaric, who then was part of either police or

 5     military structures, I'm not sure which.  But he could not reach him,

 6     which meant that I could not leave Samac.

 7             The following day, a member of Grey Wolves or some other unit

 8     from Serbia and a domestic policeman took Boro and me to police.  The

 9     commander of the Serb police, Stevan Todorovic, waited for us next to the

10     car.  He was waving his gun and threatening both of us, asking Boro why

11     he had provided sanctuary for me in his house.  We went to the police

12     station.  They separated Boro and me, kept him black, or kept him "crni."

13     They demanded that I went to the radio station and invite the citizens to

14     surrender their weapons, to abstain from opening fire; although, nobody

15     opened fire anymore, because that morning the few Bosnian Muslims who had

16     weapons rounded up in the center of town and did not know what to do.

17             I spoke on the phone with one of them, with Ibrahim Sakic, asking

18     him what the situation was like.  I said that I had been offered for the

19     JNA to enter Bosanski Samac and guarantee peace.  Ibrahim later spoke to

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic, one of the JNA commanders, and they

21     surrendered their weapons.  He walked in front of APCs, he knew who had

22     weapons, and they went house by house and collected weapons.  Some 20

23     people with rifles could not do anything against the 20 armoured vehicles

24     that entered the town.

25             So my appeal over the radio waves over Radio Samac would not

Page 12555

 1     serve any purpose because there was no resistance at that point in time,

 2     because the Serbian Territorial Defence, Chetnik detachments, the units

 3     from Serbia, the JNA, were overwhelming.

 4             I was beaten the first time when I was taken to the police

 5     station, before I was taken to the radio station.  A person, Mirkovic,

 6     a.k.a. Lugar, beat me up.  He came to me and asked me, "Who are you?"  I

 7     said, "Sulejman Tihic, president of the SDA."  He pretended not to hear,

 8     and as I came closer to him, he punched me in the stomach.  I fell down,

 9     then people standing by kicked me.  The person who was supposed to escort

10     me to Radio Samac told them to stop.  That person first took me to the

11     radio station, where I read out an already-typed statement to the effect

12     that I invited the citizens to surrender, to not open fire, and that it

13     would be okay for the JNA to take control, or words to that that effect.

14             I was then brought back to the police station, and there I was

15     interrogated.  That person, Lugar, beat up again.  Some questions made no

16     sense to the effect of "Who was in the leadership of the SDA."  But that

17     was a well-know fact; it wasn't confidential.  I know that he phoned a

18     friend in Valjevo over the phone and explained --

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Tihic, I'm sorry to interrupt.  I think it's

20     time for the break, and I will come back to this in more detail after the

21     break.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would have something to deal with

23     briefly before the break.  May I?

24             Mr. President, in the Serbian legal system, the accused can put

25     forth requests and launch appeals.  In the Serbian system, the accused

Page 12556

 1     person cannot beg anyone for anything, except for a partner amnesty

 2     later.  I did not find anything in the Rules of The Hague Tribunal

 3     stating anything different.  If ever I said "please," that just meant it

 4     is an ingrained part of my personality to be considerate and

 5     well-mannered.  But if ever I said the word "please," or words to that

 6     effect, or "I beg you," I will never do that again, ever.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not the Serbian system,

 8     this is the International Tribunal, and it operates with its own special

 9     rules.  There are requests.  You cannot demand.  There are no demands.

10             We will have a 20-minute break.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.04 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.26 a.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

14             Before we resume, Mr. Mussemeyer, I shall give the witness

15     Article 258 in B/C/S, and I will ask him to read it because we haven't

16     found an English version of this.  We have this document, and I shall ask

17     the witness to read out Article 258, and the interpreters can translate

18     it.

19             Usher, would you mind giving this document to the witness,

20     please.

21             Witness, I'm going to ask you to work a little bit.  I'll ask you

22     to read Article 258, and the interpreters will translate this for us.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Organisations of Associated

24     Labour, self-management interest communities, and other self-management

25     organisations and communities have the right and responsibility to take

Page 12557

 1     part actively in the defence of the country; and in relation to that,

 2     organise and carry out preparations, ensure resources, and carry out

 3     other tasks that are of interest for national defence, in accordance with

 4     the Constitution, law, plans, and decision of social-political

 5     communities.  These organisations and communities are responsible for

 6     carrying out these tasks."

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thank you for having read

 8     this article, which seems to grant a number of entities a responsibility

 9     in defence matters.

10             Do you have anything to add to this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously, the wrong paragraph was

12     referred to, in terms of this decision.  It doesn't have to do with the

13     territorial organisation of the republic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, you now

15     had occasion to convince yourself of what this looks like when one deals

16     with assumptions in the courtroom.  On the basis of this article of the

17     Constitution, a newly-established municipality indicates its rights in

18     the sphere of national defence, and this was not used as legal grounds

19     for establishing a new municipality, by breaking up existing

20     municipalities.  This was an arbitrary interpretation in the courtroom

21     that was blessed, as it were, by the Prosecutor.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the article has been

23     translated, it's on the record, the witness has provided us with his

24     comment, and Mr. Seselj his position.

25             Let's resume now.

Page 12558

 1             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor again.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I want to come back to the night when the conflict

 4     started.  You told us that you got telephone calls.  Do you remember

 5     getting a telephone call from Muslim members of the 4th Detachment, and

 6     what did they tell you?

 7        A.   I don't know exactly what you are referring to.  What telephone

 8     call; on the eve of the attack on Samac, or after the attack?

 9        Q.   During this attack, you were at a meeting, and during this

10     meeting, you got telephone calls?

11        A.   Yes.  Somebody phoned on the eve of the meeting that was held in

12     the evening in Bosanski Samac, the night before Samac was to be attacked;

13     and that is when someone from the ranks of my supporters from the SDA, a

14     citizen, called me and said somewhere on the outskirts of Bosanski Samac,

15     near the railway station, that there were soldiers there in military

16     uniforms.  I took that as one of the series of information that we were

17     receiving every day, especially in the evening.

18             And, as time went by, I stopped attaching any particular

19     importance to this information.  Sometimes, this information would prove

20     to be wrong.  Sometimes, it proved to be truth that some units, indeed,

21     had entered, but then they would leave.  So I did take note of that, but

22     I did not take any steps, except for providing information further on.  I

23     don't know if I could have taken any steps or done anything.

24        Q.   Did you get any information that people were killed at that time?

25        A.   The following day when Samac was attacked, then I referred

Page 12559

 1     information to the effect that in Donja Mahala, in that part of town,

 2     these paramilitary specialists, as we called them, had already started

 3     killing people.  Yes, that is the information I received.  That was in

 4     the morning.

 5        Q.   Was the name of the unit or of the units these soldiers belonged

 6     to mentioned?

 7        A.   It is a fact that they then mentioned that these were Arkan's men

 8     or Grey Wolves.  For us, all of these who were coming from Serbia, these

 9     specials, we called them "specials," we called them "the multi-coloured

10     ones."  Arkan was a big thing for all of them, so then all of these units

11     were called "Arkan's men," or "The Grey Wolves" sometimes, because people

12     knew they existed, too; that is to say, they were not regular JNA.

13        Q.   Do you remember whether the expression "Seselj's men" was

14     mentioned?

15        A.   Well, the term "Chetniks" was used, you know.  I remember, when

16     they brought me to the police station, there were different uniforms

17     there.  Then also I saw those Chetniks with those beards and fur hats, as

18     if they came out of the movies we used to watch from the Second World

19     War, and I thought, my god, is this a dream or is this really happening.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, since you are present

23     today, I can ask you the following question.  I believe you can answer

24     this question.

25             A while ago, you said that there were Arkan's men, paramilitary

Page 12560

 1     units, and so on and so forth.  How is it that an army like the JNA, that

 2     had a well-established, worldwide reputation, did not have its own units,

 3     its own special units, like some armies in the world have, and had rather

 4     resort to units like Arkan's units?  Do you have an explanation for this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, the then-JNA had

 6     lost its commander.  The Presidency of the SFRY, as a collective organ,

 7     could not reach consensus, agreement, with regard to many questions,

 8     including defence questions.  Then the JNA was led by commanders who were

 9     predominantly of Serb ethnicity; and, most probably, the president of

10     Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic, exerted an influence, a real influence.  He

11     had a true and real influence and power.

12             In my view, this was a combination between the military and these

13     units that were trained either within the scope of the military or the

14     police, who wore green military uniforms.  And in addition to JNA

15     officers in the field, they were commanded by somebody else from

16     Belgrade, from these intelligence circles, from the intelligence

17     community.

18             Now, why the JNA allowed itself that kind of thing, well, because

19     the JNA had lost its commander.  Then the commanders in the military

20     started conducting the defence and saying what was allowed and what was

21     not allowed.  I mean, they lost their civilian commander.  That is what

22     I've been trying to say.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So, according to

24     you, this is due to the fact that the JNA was no longer headed by a

25     commander.  That's why the generals, according to what you are saying,

Page 12561

 1     that had lower ranks managed the situation in this manner, and this is

 2     why these units were established.  Your explanation is an interesting one

 3     and, of course, requires scrutiny on the part of the Bench.

 4             I have another issue in the same line I would like to put to you.

 5             We have been told, and the accused Seselj told us this during one

 6     of his many cross-examinations of a number of witnesses, that people

 7     mistrusted the JNA.  There was a degree of mistrust because JNA

 8     symbolized communism.  Since the JNA found it difficult to recruit

 9     soldiers, the law entitled volunteers to not be incorporated in the JNA,

10     but the volunteers could, nonetheless, take part in defence operation of

11     the fatherland.  This was based on a voluntary basis, and this was

12     enshrined in the law.  We actually saw the text relating to that.

13             Now, you, yourself, in your municipality which you had the honour

14     of presiding at some point, did you feel that there was such a hostility

15     vis a vis the JNA, whatever the ethnicity might be, whether it be Croats,

16     Muslims, or Serbs, vis a vis these volunteers?  What do you feel about

17     this?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that as far as Bosniaks and

19     Croats are concerned, that they primarily viewed the JNA as a Serb army

20     because the command was Serb; and I don't think there were problems,

21     especially as far as Serbs were concerned, to have this army manned in

22     the regular way in accordance with the law.  I think that these volunteer

23     units are a consequence of the political situation in the country, and

24     that they were created by the intelligence services that were supposed to

25     do this dirty part of the job; namely, to come in before the JNA, to

Page 12562

 1     commit crimes.  Then after that, the JNA shows up as some kind of saviour

 2     and then again they leave, and leave the matter to local Serb units and

 3     these paramilitaries.

 4             These paramilitary units, well, I don't think that they are

 5     classical volunteers.  I think that there were quite a few mercenaries

 6     there, criminals.  We see how they behaved.  We see the killings, the

 7     abuse, the looting.  I remember that some of them came to Samac, and they

 8     claimed that they had been in prison.  I know that some men from Samac

 9     who had been in prison, in the special units they found their old prison

10     mates.  So these were not traditional volunteers who had come to fight

11     for the freedom of their country.  There was lots of crime involved there

12     and a lot of criminals.  Time did show that they were not patriots or

13     nationalists.  They were criminals, ultimately.

14             I mentioned Zvezdan Jovanovic, who for a while could have looked

15     like some kind of a patriot or some kind of a hero, national hero, and

16     then he proved to be a criminal.  We, however, in Samac knew that

17     straight away, because they were stealing vehicles, printing false

18     driving licenses and traffic licenses.  They were killing, beating

19     people.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, from what you've

21     just told us, I have the feeling that there are three key moments.  The

22     first one is when the intelligence services, according to what you are

23     saying, instrumentalised a number of individuals who will then, in a

24     particular area, commit crimes and abuses.  That is the first key moment.

25     In the second key moment, the JNA steps in, establishes law and order,

Page 12563

 1     and then leaves.  The third key moment is when the paramilitary units

 2     remain where they are and will then also commit abuses.

 3             Have I summed up what you have said correctly?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, except for the third matter.

 5     Along with the paramilitaries, the Serb units stayed behind of the Serb

 6     Territorial Defence, so they were there together.  The paramilitaries

 7     remained, they were still dominant, and they were the masters of life and

 8     death.  They were the ones who were killing, looting, and who,

 9     inter alia, had as one of their objectives a disruption of inter-ethnic

10     relations, so that they would drag other members of their ethnic group

11     into the war, too.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

13        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I would like to come back to the situation after you

14     gave the interview.  You were brought back to the police station, and you

15     told us already that you have been heavily beaten by a certain Lugar.  Do

16     you remember a beating where Lugar was making telephone calls?

17        A.   Yes.  He made a telephone call.  I realised that he was speaking

18     to a woman, and she asked him where he was, and he said, "Well, I'm

19     working, and you see how I'm working."  Then he turned the receiver

20     towards me, and then this colleague of his would hit me, then I would

21     moan, so that she would hear through the receiver how he was working.

22        Q.   Have you ever been beaten by people originating from

23     Bosanski Samac?

24        A.   No, never.  The Serbs from Bosanski Samac never beat me.  If they

25     could, they helped me, you know.  When those specials, these

Page 12564

 1     paramilitaries as you call them - I think that that is a term that is

 2     completely wrong - when they would go out, then the commander of the

 3     police station, who was a Serb, then he'd bring a doctor to see me.  He'd

 4     give me some food to eat, he'd give me lemonade, he'd let me go to the

 5     toilet, which meant a lot, you know.

 6             While I was there, they never beat me.  The local Serbs from

 7     Bosanski Samac never beat me.  You know, I knew all them, they knew me,

 8     they knew their father, they knew my grandfather.  I also knew them.

 9     Very often, they would even apologise to me when they had to take me out,

10     when these people would beat me, and they'd say, "Doctor, sorry," because

11     there was this custom in Samac that a lawyer would be called "Doctor."

12        Q.   When the beatings stopped or the interrogations stopped, where

13     have you been brought?

14        A.   You see, I was taken away that evening first to the Staff of the

15     Territorial Defence.  This is opposite to the police station.  It was

16     like a warehouse, say 15 metres by 20 metres.  There were already about

17     50 persons there, and, of course, all of it started.  We had to sing

18     Chetnik songs.  They beat us indoors, outdoors.  There were all sorts of

19     interrogations, senseless ones, just for the sake of the beatings.  All

20     night, this went on.

21             There was a concrete floor, and they gave us these pieces of

22     cardboard to sort of lie down, but, I mean, you couldn't lie down because

23     somebody would walk in all the time.  Someone would walk in and say, "I'm

24     one of Arkan's men, and I'm a person belonging to this or that unit."  I

25     don't know whether that was true or not.  Then, according to their own

Page 12565

 1     criteria, whenever they take someone out, whether they liked this person,

 2     didn't like the person, beat them, and then they'd force us to sing their

 3     songs, louder, louder, and even louder.  You couldn't sing any louder.

 4     Later on, people of Samac said this could be heard to the center of town

 5     and throughout town.  We had to sing these songs so loudly.

 6        Q.   Could you please describe to us in detail what Lugar exactly did

 7     to you and how he beat you?

 8        A.   Well, I saw him a few times, if I can put it that way.  Before I

 9     went to Radio Samac, when I came to the building - when I returned from

10     Radio Samac, that is - I told you that a moment ago, when he was talking

11     to someone out there in Serbia.  Then once, when a Serb soldier got

12     killed.  Now, was he killed by the HVO?  I mean, well, then he beat me

13     up, too.  I was in the police building then, and the room was, say, 2

14     metres by 1.20 metres.  There were about nine of us there, and there was

15     a bench there, and we were there for about a week.  You slept there, you

16     sat there on that bench.  You couldn't go to the toilet.  You may go to

17     urinate, but then they beat you black and blue on the way.  But they

18     didn't allow us to pass a stool.  That's how the days went by.

19             I remember that Lugar would come in, I remember that he had these

20     grenades, and he'd say, "I've just come from the funeral of this Serb

21     soldier, and I swore at his grave that I would take my revenge."  He

22     looked at this cell.  There were nine of us there, and he said,

23     "President," and I was the president of the SDA and that's how he knew

24     me, and he said, "President, you're going to be last."  Then he took

25     these men out one by one and he beat them, one, two, three, five blows,

Page 12566

 1     and then he returned that person.  Then, finally, my turn came.  I

 2     thought that he'd kill me because he said that he'd be taking his

 3     revenge, and I was the last one.

 4             There was this hall in front of these cells.  Perhaps it was four

 5     or five metres long.  Then, as he would hit me, it was like a boxer's

 6     blow and I would fall down, but I'd have to get up straight away, because

 7     if I wouldn't get up, then he would trample me with his feet, and then

 8     again and again and again.  I don't know how many times this happened.

 9     And, finally, when I could no longer get up, I was lying down there, and

10     then he jumped onto my chest, and I put my hands up this way and I heard

11     something break.  I tried to protect myself with my hands, and then he

12     said to me, "Get up."

13             When I got up, he looked at me, and I didn't know what was going

14     on.  I took off my watch and, I don't know, I thought that perhaps this

15     might help me.  He took my watch and then he hit me on the head once,

16     twice, and there was blood flowing down my face.  I had the feeling that

17     he was in some kind of a dilemma, and then he said, "Get away from me,

18     get away from me.  Go into the cell," as if, well, I don't know.  There

19     was some force that stopped him from killing me, because -- well.

20             Then over there, I don't know, the people who were in the cell,

21     they helped me a bit because I couldn't breathe, either because I was so

22     upset, because he had jumped on my chest.  Well --

23        Q.   Does the name Dikan say anything to you?

24        A.   Dikan, yes, it does.  That was a Croat.  He was also captured.

25     He was from Slavonski Samac, in the Republic of Croatia, and he had been

Page 12567

 1     taken prisoner.  He happened to be in Samac in a cafe at night.  And when

 2     they saw that he was a Croat, well, they put him in the camp anyway, and

 3     they beat him a lot.  I know that once when I was interrogated myself at

 4     the police station, we heard -- or, rather, I heard somebody firing in

 5     the Territorial Defence Staff, firing shots.  I didn't see it, but I

 6     heard it, because it's just across the road, close by.

 7             Then Simo Zaric, who interrogated me, called up to see who had

 8     been doing the shooting, and he was told that it was Lugar, who had

 9     killed Dikan.  I told you who Dikan was, and I think his sons were in the

10     ZNGs, and so they took special care to beat him.

11             I know Simo Zaric called up Blagoje Simic at the time and said,

12     "That idiot," meaning Lugar, "has just killed a man."  And according to

13     the flow of the conversation, Simo Zaric with Blagoje Simic, I understood

14     that Blagoje was asking him whether anybody had seen it happen.  The

15     answer was that at least 50 people had seen it.  I know that Simo called

16     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic and said, "These idiots are going to kill

17     people, and they've already killed one man, and the army has to come to

18     save the day."

19             Then I know that Simo left, whether he went to a factory in

20     Samac, or Utva, or Hrana-Produkt, where Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic was

21     located.  Anyway, the army did send trucks that day; and most of us, the

22     majority, were transported to Brcko in that truck to the barracks in

23     Brcko.

24        Q.   Can I interrupt, Mr. Tihic.  Sorry.  I want to come to this

25     later.

Page 12568

 1             Could you please list for us the detention facilities you were

 2     aware of at that time in Bosanski Samac?

 3        A.   When I was in Bosanski Samac, then the Territorial Defence Staff

 4     was used and the police station building.  That was turned into a sort of

 5     camp for prisoners or, rather, for citizens.  It was the citizens who

 6     were incarcerated there.  I know that later on, there were camps in the

 7     secondary school, the technical school, the primary school, in Crkvina,

 8     which is a village near Samac, in a warehouse there of a company called

 9     Bosanka.  I know that there's another camp in Zasavica, a whole Croatian

10     village that had been emptied of inhabitants, and they used it to put up

11     Bosniaks and Croats there.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it seems that the

13     Prosecutor has changed topics and is now dealing with the detention

14     centres.  I would like you to shed some light on a small detail, please.

15             I was listening to you when I was reading your statement, and I

16     note that this Lugar -- on paragraph 44 of your statement, you seem to be

17     saying that this Lugar is part of the Grey Wolves.  Then in paragraph 52

18     of your statement, you say that he was one of Arkan's men.  So does this

19     mean that Arkan's men and the Grey Wolves is one and the same thing?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say for sure whether he was

21     in the Grey Wolves or one of Arkan's men.  When we happened to meet them,

22     then if you dared look at anyone, because usually you'd have to put your

23     hands behind your back and lower your head, look down, anyway, he was a

24     man who spoke the Ekavian dialect, he was in those special units.  Now,

25     which unit he actually belonged to, or some third unit, I really can't

Page 12569

 1     say.  I didn't know all those insignia.  I couldn't recognise all the

 2     insignia that they wore.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So in addition to

 4     what you said in your statement, you are saying that you do not really

 5     know which unit Lugar belonged to, whether it was the Grey Wolves,

 6     Arkan's men, or Unit X.  You're not 100 per cent sure which unit he

 7     belonged to; is this it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document

10     65 ter number 1553 to be shown on the monitor.  This is an order of

11     Public Safety Station, Bosanski Samac, signed by the witness

12     Stevan Todorovic.  The witness Stevan Todorovic is deceased some years

13     ago, just for the information of the others.

14        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you read this and comment on this order?

15        A.   "In keeping with the law governing internal affairs of the

16     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I hereby order ..." -- or,

17     rather, "In compliance with," et cetera.

18             "1.  It is forbidden for three or more Muslims or Croats to

19     congregate in public places, gather together in public places.

20             "2.  Any such grouping should be first warned; and if the offence

21     is repeated, the participants should be apprehended and arrested.

22             "3.  For carrying out this order, the commander of the military

23     police platoon and the commander of the public safety station are

24     personally responsible.

25             "Head of the Public Safety Station, Stevan Todorovic,

Page 12570

 1     Engineering."

 2             So that was a well-known order and it was applied.  When Muslims

 3     were buried, for instance, you couldn't have a funeral procession.  You

 4     could just have two or three men attending the funeral and burying the

 5     deceased.  There were no send-offs or religion rites observed.  They

 6     didn't allow that either, let alone anything else.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to have this

 9     document moved into evidence.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give it a number, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

12     Exhibit number P673.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

14        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I would like to come to another location.  You told us

15     shortly that you have been removed from Bosanski Samac.  Could you please

16     let us know where you have been brought?

17        A.   They took almost all of us.  Just five or six people remained.

18     They took us to the military barricades in a place called Brcko, which is

19     about 55 kilometres away from Bosanski Samac.  That's where we were.  We

20     arrived there and they searched us again.  They took away any items we

21     had remaining.  If anybody had a watch, a ring, or a wallet, they

22     confiscated that, and put us into a cell.  I and Dragan Lukac and Osman

23     Isarevic [phoen] were put into a separate room because they said we were

24     extremists.  They put handcuffs on us, and that's how we spent the night.

25             But, generally speaking, the treatment towards us in the barracks

Page 12571

 1     was far better than it had been in Bosanski Samac, because they didn't

 2     beat us.  You were allowed to go to the toilet.

 3        Q.   You have not been beaten.  Have you been threatened by someone?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were cases of that kind when the Chetniks turned up.

 5     I remember on one occasion, you know, the way they were dressed with the

 6     fur hats and the skull-and-bone emblem and the beards.  They threatened

 7     to kill us, and then some other groups would turn up.  Whether they were

 8     Arkan's men or -- well, I don't know how this person introduced himself.

 9             But, anyway, the soldiers didn't allow them to enter, and they

10     didn't allow them to beat us, either.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one small detail.  You

12     were talking about the Chetniks, notably something I'm interested in.

13     You're telling us they had very long beards.  We've seen a number of

14     videos and photographs on this.  But before these events, before 1992,

15     were there people with very long beards already, or did this appear with

16     the events?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, please believe me when I say,

18     I was wondering when they managed to grow all those long beards, because

19     before, there weren't people with long beards.  This was linked to the

20     Chetnik movement of the day, led by Draza Mihajlovic, which was an

21     infamous movement.  You might see artists wearing beards, perhaps some

22     painter or other, or perhaps a composer; but ordinary people didn't wear

23     beards, especially not the long, unkempt beards.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're also wondering how

25     these beards grow so fast.  I really wonder, myself.

Page 12572

 1             You have the floor.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, did you realise a kind of cooperation between the JNA

 4     and paramilitary units in Brcko?

 5        A.   Well, I'm sure it existed in one way or another.  I don't know.

 6     They entered the barracks, and they would talk to us, threaten us, said

 7     they'd kill us all.  I think there was cooperation, generally speaking,

 8     between the JNA and those various units.  It couldn't have been

 9     otherwise, because how else would they have been allowed to enter the

10     barracks, unless there was a tacit agreement for these paramilitary units

11     to enter and unless there was cooperation?  How would they enter the

12     barracks otherwise?  The barracks was a place where you weren't allowed,

13     where entry was prohibited.  You weren't allowed to photograph, you had

14     to show your ID card, special security, let alone somebody being allowed

15     to enter with weapons.

16        Q.   Do you remember that at that time you have been asked to give a

17     television interview?

18        A.   Yes.  While I was in Brcko, I was asked to give an interview for

19     television, and I was supposed to go to Bosanski Samac.  Although I

20     didn't feel like going, I had to go there, to Bosanski Samac, I mean.

21     First of all, they took us to our houses so that we could have a bath,

22     put on a decent suit to look decent and clean; and then I went to see

23     Simo Zaric's office, where the interview was conducted in the presence --

24     apart from the journalists and cameramen and crewmen of TV Novi Sad, the

25     other person there was Stevan Todorovic, who was the chief of the police

Page 12573

 1     station.  Simo Zaric even conducted the interview, and Captain Crni came

 2     in, and other people came in from time to time.  They asked me who had

 3     given the coordinates for the shelling of Samac to the Croats, and I

 4     said, "I had absolutely no idea," which was true.  Then he said, "Bring

 5     him to me after the interview.  I'll talk to him."

 6             So I made a statement in the only way I could, given the

 7     circumstances, in the way I had to.  I know that at the end,

 8     Stevan Todorovic asked me to say that nobody had beaten me, and I did

 9     make that statement, I complied.  I said that none of the Serb policemen

10     had beat me from Bosanski Samac, and that was taped onto the interview.

11     I said that I wasn't beaten by the Serbian police force of Samac, but by

12     the other people who came -- but it was the people from Serbia.

13             But they didn't notice the difference.  They didn't notice the

14     distinction I made.  And after that, they returned us to Brcko.  I can

15     give you the details, if you want to hear them.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to show a short clip about this

17     interview.  We have it in our files.  It's 65 ter number 6049 [Realtime

18     transcript read in error "6449"], and please have a specific look on the

19     left eye of the witness.

20                           [Videotape played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Please tell me frankly, what is

22     your impression, Mr. Tihic, of the present authorities of the territory

23     of the Serbian ..." --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Will you speak louder?  The interpreters are

25     having a hard time hearing you.

Page 12574

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, I will.

 2             [Voiceover] "Mr. Tihic, let tell me frankly, what is the

 3     impression of the present authorities on the territory of the Serbian

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina, or rather, the Serbian police towards the

 5     Muslim people, yourself, and all the other citizens?  But, please, be

 6     completely frank."

 7             "Well, as to the attitude of the Serbian police, members of the

 8     Serbian police themselves towards me personally, I didn't have any

 9     problems.  I can say that they treated me fairly, properly."

10             "Has the Serbian police force harmed anyone here?"

11             "To the best of my knowledge and information, not one Muslim was

12     killed.  The policy of the party, especially that of President

13     Izetbegovic, was that we must not get ourselves into a situation that

14     becomes subordinated to any of the parties and that they merely execute

15     their orders.  And I remember that at one meeting, the SDA president from

16     Derventa Brod said that the Croatian side provided weapons, equipment,

17     and everything, and tried to set up a sort of staff and a joint commander

18     where everybody would have to follow their orders.  I know the president

19     said then, 'Well, regarding equipment and weapons, take it, but without

20     conditions.  No joint commands, no joint uniforms, and so on.  If someone

21     wants to give them to you, fine, but without dragging you into their

22     hierarchy.'  Now, this issue was broached then in Bosanski Samac some 20

23     days ago or a month ago; I mean the idea of forming a joint Crisis Staff,

24     as I've already said.  When I attended the meeting, a meeting that was

25     convened, I didn't know that that was on the agenda.  But when I

Page 12575

 1     arrived ..." --

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, do you remember, is this the interview that you gave?

 4        A.   Yes, that's the interview.

 5        Q.   Do you know if, during this interview, also other detainees have

 6     been interviewed, and where were they?

 7        A.   Yes.  They were interviewed, and I know that Izet Izetbegovic was

 8     there, and Alic, Omer as well, I think Safet Mihajlovic [phoen], and so

 9     on.  And they were somewhere in the building, but we weren't able to

10     contact each other.

11        Q.   Have detainees been hidden, giving the interview only by voice,

12     not shown on the television, because of their injuries?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  I came from Brcko with Omer Alic and Safet

14     Hadzialijagic, and Izet was in Samac.  They were taping us separately,

15     and I know that they would try and position the camera to hide the

16     bruises, and that they put sunglasses on Izet.  They filmed Omer in

17     profile as well to avoid showing the injuries he had on his face.

18             Well, it was shameful for the journalists because, well, the

19     journalists felt ashamed because he saw what they looked like, what we

20     looked like.  Then he asked me to tell him quite frankly whether anybody

21     beat us, whether anybody had suffered, and things like that.  But who

22     dared speak sincerely?  Everybody knew what would happen if I had been

23     sincere and frank.  They would have killed us straight away.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, like everyone else, I

25     looked at this video.  I noted that there was a cup of coffee in front of

Page 12576

 1     you.  So were you offered a cup of coffee or was it there just, you know,

 2     to look good?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, like the suit I was wearing,

 4     the cup was there to make it look as if it was a normal interview.  Who

 5     placed the coffee cup there, I don't know.  It was already there.  There

 6     was the cup and there was the coffee inside the cup.  It was already

 7     there.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to have this video

 9     moved into evidence.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give it a number.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I was informed that the transcript of this video

12     has the wrong number.  Instead of having 6049, it has "6449."  This is

13     not correct.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecutor ought to

15     tell us when this interview was filmed and on what television station.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, was this video

17     broadcast?

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Just a moment.  I have to search it.  The

19     originator is unknown, and this video was seized on the 11th December

20     1994.  It's from the Videotape "Genocide, Bosanski Samac."  It has been

21     admitted into evidence in two other cases, and this is -- on the

22     Milosevic case, it had Exhibit number 608, tab 12.  In the case of -- in

23     the Bosanski Samac case, which is IT-95-9/2, it was Exhibit number P16/A.

24     This is the information I can give you from our documentation.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as far as you know,

Page 12577

 1     was this interview broadcast?  Did other people see it and talk to you

 2     about it?  Because the Prosecutor is not giving us much of an answer.  He

 3     says that it has been admitted in other cases, but we would like to know

 4     whether it was broadcast.  Do you know this; yes or no?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know it was broadcast on two

 6     occasions through Television Novi Sad, which has a programme in

 7     Bosanski Samac.  It has a good signal and can be seen loud and clear.

 8     The locals told me that there was a problem with the electricity, which

 9     was down once when it was first broadcast, and it was broadcast again so

10     people could see it clearly.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you give us

12     an approximate date, the date it was broadcast?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was the very next day and

14     the following day.  So for two days in a row was when it was broadcast.

15     I can make a guess and say that it was sometime around the 27th or 28th

16     of April, perhaps, thereabouts, when it was broadcast.  I can't be

17     certain, but thereabouts.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

19     number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

21     Exhibit number P674.  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

23        Q.   Mr. Tihic, after Brcko, have you been moved to another detention

24     facility; and if so, could you let us know which one?

25        A.   From Brcko, we were transferred.  After the attack on Brcko, that

Page 12578

 1     same night we were awoken by the explosion, all the windows were

 2     shattered, and the bridge linking Brcko to Croatia was destroyed.  That

 3     same day -- or, rather, the following day, we were transferred to

 4     Bijeljina, to the barracks there.  It was the Fadil Jahic Spana Barracks

 5     in Bijeljina, and we were exposed to all the abuse and mistreatment

 6     there, too, the beatings and so on.  They particularly selected me.

 7             I had to wash toilets full of excrement.  I had to clean it up

 8     with my hands, and they said wherever it was dirty and yellow, that it

 9     should be white, sparkling clean.  But they didn't provide me with any

10     brushes or anything, so I had to clean it with my bare hands.  They would

11     beat me, ask me to clean up the mess.  Then an order came, telling me to

12     go back to the room that the people from Samac were incarcerated in, the

13     prisoners.  Then they called us out, several of us out by name, and they

14     ordered us about turn, to march forward, and we reached a helicopter.

15     The helicopter transported us to the Batajnica Airport near Belgrade.

16        Q.   Before we come to Batajnica, do you know if one of the guards

17     recognised you from the television interview you gave, part of which we

18     have seen a few minutes ago?

19        A.   Well, one guard did recognise me, and he said, "There's the man

20     who was on television."  I understood from that, that we were depicted in

21     a negative light as people who had committed crimes.  The policeman who

22     recognised me took me to that toilet and asked me to clean up the mess

23     there and all the rest of it.

24        Q.   When and how have you been transported to Batajnica?

25        A.   From that group of people from Samac, there were 50 of us.  Five

Page 12579

 1     or six of us were selected and we were transferred there.  We were

 2     brought to the helicopter, and we had some blindfolds over our eyes, but

 3     we could see if we looked underneath the blindfolds, and saw that there

 4     was a sort of coffin in the middle and that there were some letters on

 5     it.  And as far as I had understood, it was a Serb soldier who had been

 6     killed, and his name was Vuk or Vukmirovic, something like that.

 7             Izet Izetbegovic was in the helicopter already, and Dr. Miroslav

 8     Keracic, and Benko Dragicevic -- or, rather, Ante Dragicevic, Benko's

 9     father, was there, the chief of the Samac police station, before the war,

10     that is.  They were in the helicopter and we were handcuffed.  This one,

11     well, paramilitary special had a black cap; and as the helicopter took

12     off, he wanted to throw us out of the helicopter.  However, another

13     person who was there in the helicopter in civilian clothes did not allow

14     him to do that.  And later on, I got to know this other person.  He was

15     some security chief at the airport.

16             And when we reached Batajnica Airport, we went through the

17     standard procedure; that is to say, we were thrown out of the helicopter

18     and beaten straight away, thrown into the lorry, the Pizgauer type.  We

19     were brought to a room -- well, a cellar, really; no windows, just a lamp

20     hanging from the ceiling, one bulb hanging from the ceiling.  Then,

21     again, we were mistreated, beaten, Chetnik songs were sung.  There was a

22     picture of Draza Mihajlovic on the wall there.

23             And in the morning, when we had to go to the toilet, we had to go

24     and kiss Draza Mihajlovic's photograph and say, "Good morning, General,"

25     first.  And on one occasion, a Croat turned up subsequently there, and he

Page 12580

 1     didn't know that he had to kiss -- where he had to kiss -- that he had to

 2     kiss Draza in the mouth.  The policeman beat him up and said, "Draza is

 3     not a homosexual.  Why are you kissing him on the lips?"  Anyway, we were

 4     mistreated.  We couldn't sleep.  They kept calling us out and

 5     interrogating us know beating us.

 6             There are a lot of details that I could tell you.  I don't know

 7     how detailed you want me to testify.

 8        Q.   Thank you for this information.  Could you please shortly let us

 9     know where Batajnica is?  Where can we find it?

10        A.   Batajnica is a military airport close to Belgrade, probably the

11     largest such military airport in the country.  We were transferred there.

12     Initially, we did not know we were at the Batajnica Airport.  They tried

13     to conceal that fact from me.  I believe that we were in the cellars of

14     an infirmary.  Once, since we were badly beaten up, they brought a

15     doctor, I think, from Zadar, a female doctor.  And from the conversation

16     we had with her, we concluded that she worked upstairs.

17             There were some good soldiers who would not allow them to beat us

18     up, who would bring us a doctor.  I remember one, Aco Ilic, a good, kind

19     person.  When he was in charge during that shift, nobody was supposed to

20     beat us up.  There was another person from Slankamen who would also not

21     allow mistreatment, but there were some reserve military personnel of

22     advanced age.  They were the worst.  They would beat us most.

23        Q.   Do you remember if you had to give another television interview

24     at Batajnica?

25        A.   Yes, I had to.  One day, they told me to conduct an interview.

Page 12581

 1     Miroslav Lazanski, a well-known commentator, conducted that interview.

 2     There were military there, there were cameras, and he asked me about us

 3     driving the Serbs out of Sabac, and I answered, "No, they drove us out."

 4     Then he asked me about us driving the Serb policemen from the police

 5     station, and I said, "No, that's not correct.  Out of the 18 policemen

 6     there, 12 were Serbs."  So he saw me giving opposite answers than

 7     expected.  He took a look at his paper and cast a glance in the direction

 8     of a military policeman who was there, and he threatened, "Just you wait.

 9     After this interview, you'll get your comeuppance."

10             That journalist finished the interview with me; and while I was

11     getting up, the military policeman hit me on the head, but the other

12     military policeman would not allow him to continue beating me, and they

13     brought me back to the cellar.  But from that interview onwards and from

14     Izetbegovic's interview and Mr. Dragicevic's interview, who also gave a

15     statement, they edited a broadcast to the effect that we had killed Serb

16     children.

17             And after the broadcast of that programme, the next day a

18     policeman came and almost killed us with beating, because they saw it on

19     TV.  They brought this broadcast in the context of and connection with

20     some atrocities that had allegedly occurred in Bosanski Brod.  Of course,

21     in Bosanski Samac, there was no such thing.  But they edited the footage

22     in such a way to induce such an impression, and this was the cause for

23     the military policeman to beat us so much subsequently.

24        Q.   Have you been brought to another detention facility after

25     Batajnica?

Page 12582

 1        A.   In Batajnica, I was from the 3rd to the 27th of May, 1992, and

 2     then we were transferred to the military camp Sremska Mitrovica.  There,

 3     we were detained with the people from Vukovar.  It would be enough, in

 4     terms of suffering, just to be in and received at Sremska Mitrovica, and

 5     that suffering would last us a lifetime.

 6             When we were admitted into the Sremska Mitrovica camp, we were

 7     beaten naked from 3.00 to 6.00 in the morning.  I had some surgical

 8     scars, having been operated on, on my hip, and I asked them, "Don't hit

 9     me there," but they especially hit me exactly there.  I would pass out,

10     then they would bring me back into consciousness, then continue beating

11     me.  I lost consciousness a couple of times during that period of

12     torture, until 3.00 in the morning.  Suddenly, there was silence, and

13     Captain, as we called him, Blue Six - later on, I found out that he was

14     the chief of KOS, a Croat who remained in the JNA - he asked us whether

15     anybody had beaten us.  I said, "No, nobody," because I was in the

16     presence of the person who had beaten me.  That person demanded that I

17     strip.  When I stripped, he could see redness on my skin.  He asked me,

18     "What's your profession?"  I answered, "I'm a lawyer," and he said,

19     "Shame on you.  You're a lawyer, and you are lying."  I said, "No, these

20     are bruises from Batajnica."  I could not admit that they were beating me

21     there.

22             I know that some other people told Captain Blue Six that we had

23     been beaten in Batajnica; but as soon as he left, they continued beating

24     those people.  The Captain Blue Six brought a medical doctor with him.

25     She gave us some powders, some pills.  She could not believe the blood

Page 12583

 1     pressure reading that I had.  But it was incredible.  It was

 2     inconceivable that anyone could survive such torture.  There were five or

 3     six of us.

 4             Later on, I found out that a person named Simo, who beat us very

 5     much, after five or six days invited us to get out of the room.  Of

 6     course, we had to have our hands behind our backs and with our head

 7     facing downwards.  He said, "We were told that you slaughtered children,

 8     Serb children, and we beat you up.  But now I see from the documents that

 9     you did not do that.  I will no longer beat you."  But there were others

10     who did the beating at Sremska Mitrovica.

11        Q.   Did you get enough food in Sremska Mitrovica?

12        A.   There was always this problem with food.  It was always

13     insufficient.  In the morning, when they would bring some tea and slices

14     of bread, some were thinner, some were thicker, and sometimes people

15     would scuffle because of getting a thinner slice.  And if we were to

16     argue in front of military policemen, they would take away the bread and

17     the tea.  In summertime, they would bring some pasta, macaroni, some ten,

18     15 pieces of pasta for the whole day, and we were hungry all the time.

19             What was interesting, after each breakfast and after each dinner,

20     they would beat us up regularly.  Of course, there were people taken out

21     individually during the day, but what was regular was the beating

22     immediately after breakfast and after dinner.  Of course, we had to sing

23     Chetnik songs, and there were Chetnik songs sung all the time.

24        Q.   Do you remember some titles of these Chetnik songs?

25        A.   Well, the standard one was "From Topola to Ravna Gora Are The

Page 12584

 1     Sentries of General Draza."  Draza was the General Mihajlovic.  Then

 2     there was a song by a Croatian pop singer, Tajci, "Let's Get Crazy

 3     Tonight, Pluck Some Croats Eyes."  You know, they adapted the versus to

 4     their purposes.  There was Vila Velebita.  Then a Muslim girl vowed

 5     before the mosque that she loves the Serbs the best in the world.  Then

 6     we were made to pray Pater Noster, et cetera.

 7             Then there was another song about a bird, a popular song.

 8     Whenever they ordered us to sing some regular folk songs, that was heaven

 9     compared to what we were made to sing otherwise.

10        Q.   Was there also a song which was called "We Will Slaughter

11     Muslims"?

12        A.   Yes, there were.  Well, the general effect of those songs were,

13     "We will slaughter, We will kill."  Those were all songs that used to be

14     sung by the Chetniks during World War II and which were prohibited during

15     the communist Yugoslavia time.  Whoever tried to sing those songs then

16     would be put to jail.

17        Q.   Do you remember that you gave an interview to a British

18     television station at that time?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember.  On one occasion, in the morning, the

20     commander of the camp and came and called out Filip Karaula's name.  He

21     was the commander of the Mitnica part of the Vukovar front, and me --

22     he invited or called out the name of a German, a volunteer in the

23     Croatian Army.  He brought us outside.  He was in the company of

24     policemen who had electric batons, and he told us that we were supposed

25     to give a statement to a foreign TV crew.

Page 12585

 1             He said, "What is important for me is to say that you are not

 2     beaten, that you have all the hygiene conditions, food, et cetera."  I

 3     asked him whether I was permitted to say I had been beaten at

 4     Bosanski Samac.  He said, "Whatever you like, but I would advise you

 5     against saying any such things.  Your family is in Rijeka, in Croatia,

 6     but they can reach your family and take their vengeance against them."

 7             Then we gave our statements, I believe, to Sky News.  I'm not

 8     sure.  Of course, while we were giving those statements, the commander of

 9     the camp and the chief of the KOS, K-O-S, of the camp were present, and

10     our statements had to be adapted and adjusted to their requirements.

11     They gave us some clothes, they cut our hair, so that we would be

12     presentable.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We have a part of this interview, and I would

14     like to show it to you.  It is 65 ter number 1059.

15                           [Videotape played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "A crew from a British TV agency

17     visited the Sremska Mitrovica camp.  We are broadcasting their segment in

18     its entirety.

19             "Over 450 prisoners, member of various Croatian formations, the

20     ZNG, the Ministry of the Interior, and HOS, are mostly from Vukovar

21     currently imprisoned in Sremska Mitrovica.  Among them is also a group of

22     Muslims.  We recorded the statement of Sulejman Tihic, now the president,

23     and formerly president of SDA of Bosanski Samac.

24             "Tihic:  A group of prisoners from BH, about 60 of us, appeal to

25     the [indiscernible] of BH, urging them to take our status, our programme

Page 12586

 1     into consideration.  We suggested that they release from military prisons

 2     or from whatever they are, where soldiers of the JNA are stationed, to

 3     release some 25 soldiers and that the JNA should then release us from

 4     Bosnia who are in the military camp in Sremska Mitrovica.  Of course, I

 5     personally sent a letter to Alija Izetbegovic in my capacity as party

 6     president.  And in this capacity as president of the BH SDA, I would like

 7     to take this opportunity to appeal again for our problem and the problem

 8     of those soldiers to be solved.  Just like us, like all of us, those

 9     soldiers have parents, children, brothers, sisters, and everybody's

10     waiting to get outside of detention.  I am certain that this cannot be

11     easy for them, either, and we cannot wait for the exchange to take

12     place."

13             "The only person in solitary confinement is the notorious Manda,

14     who cut the throats of Serb soldiers; and of course she is the only woman

15     here.  One of the prisoners is a former member of the Yugoslav national

16     rogue team, Kresimir Dzalto.  We also report recorded the statement of

17     Filip Karaula, the commander of the ZNJ forces in Nemetin in Vukovar."

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

19        Q.   Mr. Tihic, is this the video we were talking about?

20        A.   Yes, that's the footage.  It was later broadcast on Croatian

21     Television as well.  My mother and my wife for the first time learned

22     that I was alive.  They were stationed in Rijeka, in Croatia.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to move this video into evidence.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  When was it taken?

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Give me a second.  It was taken the 6th of

Page 12587

 1     December, 1994.  It was seized at that time.  I can give you, if you are

 2     interested, the exhibit number in the Bosanski Samac case.  It is P17.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give it an exhibit

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 6     Exhibit number P675.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Could I please know how much time is left for

 8     me?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not much.  Registrar, please.

10     I believe you probably have something between ten and 15 minutes left,

11     but I will let you know.

12             Please proceed, and the Registrar will let us know.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to have a document shown on the

14     monitor.  Sorry, the Registrar has to do two things at a time.  The

15     document is number 1581.  This a news article from the newspaper 'Borba'

16     dated the 15th of August, 1992, and entitled "Ordinary People Remain,"

17     and the accused is mentioned.

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic, do you remember this article?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember this article.  I gave this interview the day

20     following the day I was interviewed by the 'Vis News' from England.  So

21     the first interview on TV was the 11th or the 12th, and then this article

22     print interview was the day afterwards for 'Borba.'  Military policemen

23     showed me and brought me a copy, and I then took it with me.

24        Q.   There it said that Bosanski Samac was a very comfortable prison.

25     Do you agree with this?

Page 12588

 1        A.   I do not agree.  A prison cannot be comfortable.  I told you,

 2     there were nine of us in a cell which is 1 metre 20 by 1 metre 80, with a

 3     single bench where we sat and slept.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecutor is

 5     saying that this prison was Bosanski Samac Prison, but this is

 6     Sremska Mitrovica prison.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's Sremska Mitrovica.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I apologise.  It was a mistake.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I want to move this document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We will give it an

12     exhibit number.  This article will get an exhibit number.

13             Registrar, please.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number P676.  Thank you,

15     Your Honours.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

17        Q.   Mr. Tihic, how long did you stay in Sremska Mitrovica?

18        A.   From 27th of May to the 14th of August, when the exchange took

19     place, this is the period while I was in Sremska Mitrovica.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, can you please show the document

21     1597 on the monitor.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, could you please tell us what it is about?

23        A.   This is a certificate that we received after the exchange at

24     Nemetin, near Osijek, from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

25     Croatia.  I was exchanged together with the captured people from Vukovar.

Page 12589

 1     This was an agreement between Panic and Gregoric, between Croatia and

 2     Serbia, all for all.  And since were in that camp, we were exchanged as

 3     well.  I received this certificate along with other detainees.

 4             But, here, there is this mistake that I was in Mitrovica from the

 5     18th of April, 1992, to 14th of August, 1992.  I was captured in

 6     Bosanski Samac on the 18th of April, and I was in Mitrovica from the

 7     27th of May until the 14th of August.

 8        Q.   Thank you for letting us know.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Can I have moved into evidence this document?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

12     Exhibit number P677.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

14        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you please now tell us when you were exchanged,

15     how was the procedure when you left from the prison until you were

16     released?

17        A.   You see, at first, we lived in uncertainty as to whether the

18     Bosnia detainees would be released at all.  Twenty-four hours prior to

19     the exchange, of course, we had to clean up all the premises, the rooms,

20     to fold neatly the mattresses that we slept on, to put our personal

21     effects in order.  These were the preparations for the exchange.

22             On the evening of the 13th, we -- they started calling out our

23     names to emerge from those rooms into the center of the camp.  They would

24     group us there.  Then we -- our neighbours would be called out to go

25     somewhere else.  Then they were calling our names to get us on board

Page 12590

 1     buses.  There were 15 buses, I think.  At the entrance to the bus,

 2     policemen were standing and would slap people boarding the bus once or

 3     twice.  And trying to avoid being hit with a baton, I did not see where I

 4     was going and I missed the step.  I grabbed his - a policeman who was

 5     standing on the second step - his rifle, to stabilise myself, and they

 6     construed that as an attempt to escape, to grab his weapon.  I was in the

 7     corner, in the last seat in the bus, and this helped me to avoid being

 8     beaten as badly as the other passengers.

 9             We departed late in the evening, and it took us the whole day,

10     until 6.00 p.m., to reach Nemetin, which is 150 kilometres away.  We were

11     beaten.  Whenever we would stop, local inhabitants would get on board and

12     beat us up.

13             There was a Montenegrin on board on the bus who was drinking

14     brandy.  He would beat us.  He would invite civilians to get on board and

15     beat us.

16             When we reached Nemetin and waiting for the exchange, the

17     question was whether the exchange would take place or not, whether the

18     Croats had brought all the people to be exchanged or not.  A major, at

19     one point, entered the bus and saw that he was beating us, and he said,

20     "You stupid peasant.  Can't you see that the TV is making footage of all

21     those people?  We made sure that we did not beat them for the couple of

22     times previously so that there are no new scars, and now you are

23     inflicting new scars on them."  That person said, "Well, they're cursing

24     my mother."  The major then demanded that we raise our heads, because we

25     had to travel with our heads between our knees and it was very painful.

Page 12591

 1     The major disembarked, and then the policeman hit the person nearest to

 2     him.  The major re-entered the bus, and then he cursed that policeman's

 3     mother.

 4             This journey was fraught with uncertainty.  We were beaten along

 5     the way, and it took very long for us to get there.  Military policemen

 6     would say, "The exchange has been called off.  We will kill all of you,"

 7     but, fortunately, the exchange did take place.  I was exchanged at

 8     Nemetin.  The Croatian side must have brought all of their prisoners.

 9     The Serbs brought all their prisoners.  I was met with my wife, my son,

10     my sister.  They must have probably known that the exchange would take

11     place.

12        Q.   Did you later have a medical examination, and what injuries did

13     they find?

14        A.   Yes.  I was examined in Rijeka.  They did X-rays.  Three ribs on

15     the right-hand side were broken, two ribs on the left-hand side had been

16     broken but had healed.  Then the sternum, this bone between the ribs and

17     the bone below the last vertebra, was also broken, but it healed.

18     Afterwards, I had to undergo hip surgery, hip replacement surgery, maybe

19     as a consequence of the torture.  Stress may have induced a colon

20     carcinoma.  I had to remove that subsequently.  My front teeth were

21     broken completely, and now I have caps on my teeth because all my teeth

22     were broken.

23        Q.   Do you still suffer from the consequences of these injuries?

24        A.   Well, I don't know.  I think that I have put this behind me, and

25     I don't feel any direct effects.  Perhaps these recollections take a

Page 12592

 1     person back to those ugly times, but life does go on normally and I don't

 2     really have any special problems on account of that.  I still live in the

 3     faith that there is and will be a Bosnia and Herzegovina where all ethnic

 4     and religious groups or peoples will live together and in a spirit of

 5     tolerance.  After all, in all the camps that I went through, there were

 6     always people who helped, who prevented evil from taking place.

 7             I am not a person who could identify one people or nation or one

 8     group with crimes, especially us in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We can only go

 9     on living that way together, on a footing of equality.  That's the way

10     Bosnia was, and that's the way it can survive only, without anyone's

11     domination.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I was informed that I have a few minutes left,

13     so I would like to introduce some documents which I skipped.

14             Mr. Registrar, could you please show the exhibit -- the 65 ter

15     number 4012.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, I would like for you to comment on this.  What

17     does it depict?

18        A.   This would roughly be the emblem of the Grey Wolves.  I remember

19     one of those specials, as we called them, the multicoloured ones, as we

20     called them.  He came with one of these uniforms, and he said that these

21     emblems were not right.  The four letters "S" were not put right, because

22     they have their behinds, begging your pardon, turned to one another,

23     because they were all supposed to face each other.  How else could the

24     Serbs be united?  Then he showed the emblem of his unit, where these

25     letters were facing each other, not as if they had their backs turned to

Page 12593

 1     one another.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Can I have moved this into evidence?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Can we have a number,

 4     please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues]... be given

 6     Exhibit number P688.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The next document I would like to show has the

 8     65 ter number 2241.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, I would like you to tell us what it is -- what it

10     depicts.

11        A.   This is the building of the Territorial Defence Staff.  That's

12     the one that has windows, and to the left is the warehouse of the

13     Territorial Defence where we were detained, the warehouse there and this

14     other building.  On this side of the street was the police station.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have a

16     number, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be given Exhibit number P679.

18     Thank you, Your Honours.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  And the last document I would like to be shown

20     on the monitor has the 65 ter number 669.  This is an excerpt from the

21     minutes of the founding session of the SAO Northern Bosnia Assembly.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Tihic, I would like you to read only the last decision

23     which you can find on page 3.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Please, could you move it a bit up, because --

25     down, down.

Page 12594

 1        Q.   There is the last decision, which I want you to read.

 2        A.   As far as I see, this is a different page.  It's not there yet.

 3     Is there one more page, because you said that it was on the third page,

 4     and this is page 2.

 5        Q.   It has the ID number 4.  I have a hard copy here.

 6        A.   "Decision on the proclamation of the SAO of Northern Bosnia as an

 7     inseparable state of the Federal State.

 8             "4..." --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  It is too fast for

10     interpretation, and we cannot see the text.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Signed, Nikola Perisic."

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

13        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you please repeat this?  It was too quick for

14     the interpreters.  They could not see the text.

15        A.   "Decision on the proclamation of the SAO, the Serb Autonomous

16     Province of the Republic of Bosnia as an inseparable state of the federal

17     state.

18             "Number 4, a large number of guests and representatives asked to

19     take the floor and made short speeches of welcome.  As all the items on

20     the agenda had been dealt with, the president of the Assembly concluded

21     the session at 1815 hours.

22             "President of the Assembly, Nikola Perisic."

23        Q.   Mr. Tihic, are you aware of this decision, and can you please

24     comment on it?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, I am aware of it.  When this decision was made, again

Page 12595

 1     it was a one-sided act on the part of a group of MPs of some Serbs, not

 2     all Serbs, those from the SDS and those who wanted to attend this,

 3     because this was against the Constitution.  The constitutional procedure

 4     had not been applied.

 5             This is a territory of the Doboj region that is being proclaimed

 6     a Serb territory, as if did it were not inhabited in equal numbers by

 7     Serbs and Croats.  So it's evident that there was -- there were equal

 8     numbers of all three ethnic groups, all three peoples:  Serbs, Muslims,

 9     and Croats.  But then they took it upon themselves to say that they would

10     pass this unconstitutional act.  This also contributed to divisions and

11     conflicts, because if Serbs proclaimed the entire territory as their own,

12     and they constitute only one-third of the population, then, of course,

13     the other peoples cannot accept that.

14             You can see, by the name itself, and also the other provisions

15     are discriminatory ones, this is the standard form of decision that was

16     made in different parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and other parts, too,

17     where not only Serbs lived, but other peoples as well.  Usually, they

18     invoked the principles that suited them.  If it is a demographic

19     majority, then they say "demographic majority."  Then if before the

20     Second World War, they were the majority, then they would invoke that

21     principle, that before the Second World War they were a majority.  They

22     even would say things like, if there is a single Serb somewhere or a

23     single Serb grave, that would be Serb territory.  Things like that.

24             Of course, they'd always take more than necessary, and it was

25     quite illegal.  In a way, they were in defiance of the Constitution of

Page 12596

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as if they never

 2     existed.  They proclaimed institutions of their own, and in that way they

 3     produced conflicts.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to have --

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The date.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The date?

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  What is the date of this proclamation?

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It's not written on there.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 14th of November.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to have this entered into evidence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have a

14     number, please.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this document shall be given Exhibit

16     number P680.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have a brief objection,

19     Judges, in relation to what Mr. Harhoff asked.  This question makes a lot

20     of sense.  It was in 1991 that this decision was passed, and this is

21     tendentious on the part of the Prosecutor that Mr. Tihic, the witness,

22     read only the last part of the decision, where it remains an inseparable

23     part of the federal state.  What is meant is the SFRY, rather than the

24     FRY, which was established on the 27th of April, 1992.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you agree with the date,

Page 12597

 1     14th of November, 1991?  Do you agree with the date of this document?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree that's when the SFRY

 3     was in existence.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have concluded your examination-in-chief; is

 6     that right?

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes, Your Honours.  This was my last question.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now have a 20-minute

 9     break, and resume at 20 past 12.00 and run on until a quarter past 1.00,

10     and Mr. Seselj will begin his cross-examination.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

14             I give the floor to Mr. Seselj for his cross-examination.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First, just an advise to our

18     two speakers.

19             Witness, could you please wait for Mr. Seselj to be finished with

20     his question before answering; otherwise, there will be overlapping of

21     your two voices and interpretation will be impossible.  And, Mr. Seselj,

22     please be careful also.

23             You have the floor.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Tihic, as for this tragic and difficult fate that you

Page 12598

 1     suffered during your life, and I had occasion to read about this in your

 2     previous statements, did you ever come across persons who introduced

 3     themselves to you as volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, or Seselj's

 4     men, rather; or did other people indicate to you that they were Seselj's

 5     men?  I did not find any such thing in any of your statements.

 6        A.   I said that I came across people who introduced themselves and

 7     looked like Chetniks, you see.  You were the leader, the political

 8     leader, of that party that promoted that.  No one personally introduced

 9     himself to me as a man of Seselj's, but just as a Chetnik and things like

10     that.

11        Q.   And to the best of your knowledge, is the Serb Radical Party the

12     only one that affirmed the Chetnik idea, either in Serbia or in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the political scene?

14        A.   Well, it wasn't the only one, but you did personally to a degree.

15        Q.   So you knew me as a Chetnik, that's how I interpret your answer.

16     You knew me as a prominent Chetnik, but no one from amongst the people

17     you came across introduced themselves as a man of Seselj's, and no one

18     said that they were Seselj's men?

19        A.   I never had any such personal experience.

20        Q.   All right.  Did we know each other when we studied at the law

21     school at the University of Sarajevo?

22        A.   I do not remember.

23        Q.   All right.  You're a lawyer.

24        A.   I was born in 1951, so I don't know when you were born.

25        Q.   I was born in 1954.  I found you there at university when I got

Page 12599

 1     there, but never mind.  You're a lawyer.  You were a judge, a prosecutor,

 2     an attorney, and now you're a prominent politician.

 3             When you were called by The Hague OTP to testify as a Prosecution

 4     witness in the proceedings against me, did you find that a bit strange?

 5     Did you wonder perhaps what it was that you had to testify about against

 6     me?

 7        A.   Well, I did wonder what I was supposed to testify about, and the

 8     answer I found for myself was that I could testify as to the

 9     circumstances of my stay in camps because it was part of the general

10     political situation then in that town, in that municipality, in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in Yugoslavia.

12        Q.   During the cross-examination, I am going to make a small

13     inversion.  First, we are going to take about your camp experiences,

14     because I must admit to you that in a way, that is what touched me the

15     most, if I can put it that way.

16             You, as a politician, know that there are a few associations of

17     former camp inmates in Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   And, so far, quite a few of these former camp inmates published

20     their stories, and all of them are tragic, aren't they?  Do you agree on

21     that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   But we're going to dwell only on what happened to you, because

24     you could not be blamed for what was going on elsewhere; right?

25             Do you consider me to be responsible for everything that happened

Page 12600

 1     to you while you were in the detention camp in Sremska Mitrovica, in the

 2     military prison in Batajnica, and so on?

 3        A.   You, personally?  Well, the responsibility is on the side of that

 4     policy that you promoted, inter alia, national exclusiveness, the

 5     division of Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Do you know, in accordance with the regulations of the SFRY that

 7     were then in force, that it was only the military police that was in

 8     charge of prisoners; that they were supposed to provide conditions of

 9     their detention, accommodation, et cetera, and everything else?

10        A.   Probably that was the case.  That would only be logical.

11        Q.   Do you remember who at that time was the chief of the Security

12     Service of the JNA?

13        A.   I cannot remember.

14        Q.   Have you heard of General Aleksandar Vasiljevic?

15        A.   Yes, I have heard of him.

16        Q.   Before that, he was the chief of security of the Sarajevo

17     Military District.  Do you know that?

18        A.   I don't know about that.

19        Q.   When you happened to be in these prisons or detention camps,

20     whatever we choose to call them, in addition to the military police,

21     there were always security officers there, too, right, or the KOS, as you

22     called them?

23        A.   This was in Brcko.  In Brcko, there was this one Petrovic.  He

24     was chief of this security or KOS.  Then also in Batajnica, I came across

25     that major.  I mentioned that.  And in Sremska Mitrovica, there was this

Page 12601

 1     Plavi Cest, Blue Six.  He said that he was from the KOS and in that camp.

 2        Q.   And they were practically in charge of your destiny there; right?

 3        A.   Well, they, together with the rest of them who were there.

 4        Q.   All right.  Well, it's not all right, but since things happened,

 5     then let us discuss how it happened.  Can the policy of an opposition

 6     party be blamed for that, or is somebody else more responsible?  The

 7     closest associates of General Vasiljevic, you remembered his name, Simeon

 8     Tumanov, who was a colonel, and then later on general; then then-Colonel,

 9     later on General Branko Gajic; and General Mile Babic who was chief of

10     the Military Security of the 1st Military District.

11             Have you heard of these names?

12        A.   Tumanov, I did hear of.  It's the fact that he came to Samac when

13     the exchanges took place.  I don't know the other two.

14        Q.   So he organised the exchanges in Samac, you know, Tumanov?

15        A.   I think so, yes.

16        Q.   Do you know that at that time, there was a separate political

17     party that had been established by the generals, and it was called the

18     League of Communists, the Movement for Yugoslavia?

19        A.   Yes, I remember that.

20        Q.   Do you know what the basic objectives of that party were?

21        A.   I could not say now.  I assume that it was the preservation of

22     Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   But under special conditions, their plans were topple, as they

24     said, the nationalist leadership in Serbia and in Croatia and in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, or, rather, Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic, to

Page 12602

 1     restore Yugoslavia with foreign assistance, where they would play the

 2     main role, trying to play the role of Tito.  Would that be their concept?

 3        A.   I could not say for sure, but --

 4        Q.   All right.  When you don't know something and if you cannot

 5     confirm something, we're going to move on straight away.  I'm not going

 6     to insist, and I'm not going to try to draw something out of you that

 7     cannot be drawn.  However, I think that you do know that they were

 8     Orthodox communists, if we can put it that way, the security officers.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were they the main communists in the army?

11        A.   As a rule, they were -- well, how shall I put this?  They were in

12     charge of the purity of the idea.

13        Q.   The communist idea?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Isn't it astonishing now that these extreme or orthodox

16     communists, as they were keeping you in prisons, demonstrated the Chetnik

17     idea to you, and they forced you to sing Chetnik songs, and then some

18     songs that are not Chetnik songs, that are horrible, but that seemed like

19     Chetnik songs to you about the killings?  That is the kind of thing

20     football fans would do, right, about slaughters, killings, things like

21     that?  Would you agree on that?

22        A.   Those songs were sung everywhere, in all the camps.

23        Q.   I'm not denying that, but it's astounding, is it not, that before

24     the very eyes of the security officers, songs like that were sung?

25        A.   Well, I couldn't believe it, either.  I remember, when in

Page 12603

 1     Mitrovica, when I was cleaning up something there and I saw Comrade

 2     Tito's picture there, I was happy to see it.  When I compared it to what

 3     I was going through and what people were going through, they still had

 4     Tito's picture on the wall.

 5        Q.   But they beat you all the time and forced you to sing Chetnik

 6     songs and to kiss, as you yourself said, a photograph of

 7     Draza Mihajlovic; right?

 8        A.   I think it was a picture -- a picture drawn of Draza Mihajlovic,

 9     yes.

10        Q.   Well, it doesn't matter either way.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what was their intention when they forced you to do that?

13     You're a politician and intellectual?  Was there a intention behind that?

14     Nothing is done by chance.

15        A.   Well, I was surprised how this could happen at all and how it

16     could permeate the JNA.  And for two or three years, we believed it to be

17     a joint army.  So I was very surprised to see that the young men there

18     had this hatred and professed this hatred just because my name was

19     Sulejman, and they were beating me for just that reason.

20             We brought up our children -- our children were brought up in

21     schools.  How come, suddenly, in representative prisons as the one at the

22     Batajnica Airport, they would have a picture of Draza Mihajlovic or be

23     singing songs like that?

24        Q.   Well, here's my thesis, here's what I think.  They beat you

25     without mercy and forced the Chetnik idea so that one day, you could

Page 12604

 1     ascribe all that to the Chetniks; whereas, it was the KOS officers or the

 2     military security services who were still hard-line communists.

 3             That's my opinion, Mr. Tihic.  Am I right there?

 4        A.   Well, there were different combinations, different things were

 5     going on.  I think, in the JNA, there were people who tried to protect

 6     us.  There were officers like that, I remember, regardless of ethnicity,

 7     and I'm sure there were those who set out following the nationalist

 8     movement.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tihic, those who tried to protect you did so individually, of

10     their own will, because they were good people; right?

11        A.   Well, probably they were good people, but they should do that

12     even as a course of duty.

13        Q.   Do you think that General Vasiljevic did not know what was being

14     done to you?

15        A.   Well, they had to know, as the chiefs.

16        Q.   He was the chief of the Security Service, which is a higher level

17     than intelligence.  It's counter-intelligence, as it was called

18     previously.  So you agree that he must have known about all of it?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down and not

20     overlap.  We can't hear them.  Thank you.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... and he didn't lift a finger to prevent

23     it, did he?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Speak slower, please.

25     Mr. Seselj, do not speak so loud.  The interpreters are having a

Page 12605

 1     difficult time.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you testified in the Slobodan Milosevic trial; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know that in the indictment against Slobodan Milosevic, a

 6     number of persons were enumerated who, together with him, allegedly took

 7     part in the joint criminal enterprise, and the media published this in

 8     Bosnia, et cetera?

 9        A.   Well, just on the basis of what the media said, I couldn't

10     mention all the names, but I know they were in the media.

11        Q.   Well, there are many high-sounding names above them, including

12     Aleksandar Vasiljevic; do you remember that?

13        A.   I can't really remember.  Possibly, but I can't remember.

14        Q.   And in one of the indictments raised against me, there is no

15     mention of Aleksandar Vasiljevic, but I assume you don't know about that.

16             Anyway, don't you find it strange that The Hague Tribunal and OTP

17     never accused General Vasiljevic for taking part in war crimes?

18        A.   Well, I don't know about any of that, really, to tell you the

19     truth, and what guided the Prosecution and so on and so forth.  I know

20     that there are many people that perhaps might -- should have been taken

21     to task and brought to court, but --

22        Q.   When we look at how the prisoners of war were treated, then he is

23     the most responsible?

24        A.   Well, probably, and his superiors, too.

25        Q.   There was just the minister above him.  There was no superior

Page 12606

 1     officer above him.

 2        A.   Wasn't there the chief of the General Staff?

 3        Q.   No.  As far as I know, he was the chief of the Security Service

 4     of the Ministry of Defence, which was above the General Staff.  Isn't

 5     that right?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I can't tell you about hierarchy and structure.

 7        Q.   Well, you know that Kadijevic was Defence minister?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Well, do you know that The Hague Tribunal and the OTP, on several

10     occasions, brought in Vasiljevic as a Prosecution witness in other

11     trials?

12        A.   No, I don't know about that.

13        Q.   All right.  Well, the OTP knows that full well, but let's not

14     dwell there.  We'll move on.

15             You said, on several occasions, that an aggression had been

16     launched against Bosnia-Herzegovina.  By whom?

17        A.   Well, the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina was launched by

18     the JNA.

19        Q.   Well, how can the JNA launch an aggression against

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina when at that time, BH was a component part of

21     Yugoslavia?

22        A.   Well, because the JNA was working for Greater Serbian policies

23     and politics, and it was under those instructions that they acted, that

24     they launched an aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The JNA corps

25     were stationed there, five of them, in fact, five corps.  There were

Page 12607

 1     units there that were withdrawing from Slovenia and the units withdrawing

 2     from Croatia corps.  And the JNA was working for that Greater Serbian

 3     project, and they used weapons to arm the Territorial Defence and

 4     everybody else.

 5        Q.   Mr. Tihic, that is a political slogan, and I assume that you're

 6     fully conscious of that yourself, that the JNA was working to promote

 7     Greater Serbia.  The JNA wanted to preserve and retain Yugoslavia, and

 8     since it wasn't able to retain Slovenia, it wanted to preserve the other

 9     republics.  And when it was unsuccessful in keeping the whole of Croatia,

10     it wanted to preserve Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian Montenegro, and

11     Macedonia within Yugoslavia, right?

12             Never did anybody from the JNA ever mention Greater Serbia; am I

13     right?

14        A.   Not officially, but the RAM plan, R-A-M plan, if you remember

15     that, was, in fact, a project for Greater Serbia, and that was a JNA

16     plan, an army plan.

17        Q.   Mr. Tihic, nobody ever saw that plan, and the plan is a pure

18     invention, fabrication pursued by The Hague Tribunal.  You've never seen

19     it either; right?  They were duped.

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   You didn't see it subsequently, even when you became a

22     high-ranking officer in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   I never dealt in military matters at all for me to have been able

24     to see it, especially with what happened before.

25        Q.   But we're serious people, so when we give statements in serious

Page 12608

 1     places, we must be careful what we say, and the things we say must be

 2     based on certain grounds.  But never mind, let's move on.

 3             I'm now going to go through several of the things in your

 4     statements made here today, and then we'll have a chance of going through

 5     all the different topics in due course.

 6             But, anyway, you said that on the 17th of April, Samac was

 7     attacked; right?  How could Samac have been attacked, because over there

 8     you had the JNA, and it had the 17th Tactical Group deployed there;

 9     right?  They had formed the 4th Detachment, which was supposed to be a

10     Territorial Defence unit, but under the control of the JNA; am I right

11     there?  So it was officially the Territorial Defence formed by locals,

12     but under the strict jurisdiction of the JNA?

13        A.   It wasn't Territorial Defence; it was a unit within the

14     composition of the JNA.

15        Q.   All right.  Fine.  Now, you know that in case the JNA conducted

16     operations in a certain area, that all the units of the Territorial

17     Defence came under the command of the JNA, and that was according to the

18     concept of total national or all people's defence?

19        A.   Yes, that's logical, when it comes to an external enemy, an

20     external foe.

21        Q.   Now, tell me, why would they attack Samac if they were already in

22     Samac and had control of the situation there?

23        A.   Well, first of all, they attacked the town of Bosanski Samac, the

24     town proper; and they wanted to take full control over the town, in my

25     opinion, over that area, the bridge, to replace the elected powers in

Page 12609

 1     authority, and to hand it over to the Serb side.

 2        Q.   However, there was no attack?

 3        A.   They wanted to secure that famous corridor linking up the area

 4     with Serbia, because Samac was a essential, geographically speaking, and

 5     also because there was the bridge there and the port there and the

 6     railway there, and the border in general.

 7        Q.   And there was the danger of the Croatian forces entering Bosnia

 8     through that corridor?

 9        A.   Well, that's what the Serb side said, that Bosanski Brod could

10     repeat itself and that Croatian forces could cross over.

11        Q.   They'd already crossed over at Bosanski Brod; right?  Do you know

12     about village of Sijekovac, in which the Croatian forces from Croatia

13     proper committed great crimes against Serb civilians, where over 100

14     civilians were killed?  Have you heard of Sijekovac?

15        A.   Yes, and the crimes, but I don't know who perpetrated them.

16        Q.   And the information tells us that Croatian forces came across the

17     Sava River from Croatia; nobody else.  Muslims weren't committing crimes

18     at that time, as far as I know.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down

20     and speak one at a time.  Thank you.  It's impossible to translate at

21     this rate.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tihic, may I give you a good piece of advice.

23     If you look at the screen, you will see that there is text coming in as

24     we speak.  I hope that you have the screen open that shows the

25     transcript.  May I suggest that you do not answer the questions until you

Page 12610

 1     have seen the cursor stop, because that is the time when the translation

 2     has been made and the text has gone through.  Thank you.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Tihic, as we were saying, there could be no attack because

 5     there was no conflict in Sabac; right?  Quite simply, the JNA had left

 6     with its vehicles.  With all its military equipment, it had gone out onto

 7     the streets.

 8        A.   They entered Bosanski Samac without permission from the

 9     authorities and without their knowledge, indeed.  They started shooting

10     first of all up into the air and then targeting certain facilities which

11     were set fire to, and they disarmed the existing police force.  They

12     entered into all the public buildings and powers and

13     authorities [indiscernible].

14        Q.   But they had previous information, which was correct, that you

15     had already set up a command for the town and a Territorial Defence

16     detachment made up of 212 members which were exclusively Muslims.  There

17     was just six Croats, and all the rest were Muslims; right?

18        A.   That was a proposal with a list of Muslim Bosniaks who had

19     reported and wanted to be part of the Territorial Defence of

20     Bosanski Samac.

21        Q.   But you had, as you said, 50 automatic rifles, you had weapons,

22     you had some hunting weapons, and about 200 kilometres of explosives;

23     right?

24        A.   Fifty automatic rifles, I said, and I said that we had handed

25     that over to the Territorial Defence Staff.  The rifles, well, they

Page 12611

 1     didn't manage to hand them out.  They were seized when the JNA entered

 2     Bosanski Samac.

 3        Q.   But that Territorial Defence of yours was illegal, wasn't it,

 4     because you were working pursuant to instructions from the political

 5     leadership from Sarajevo; right?

 6        A.   No, it wasn't illegal and unlawful.  The Staff of the Territorial

 7     Defence was a constitutional category and therefore legal.

 8        Q.   You mean the Staff that you set up?

 9        A.   Well, not that we set up.  It was the Republican Staff of the

10     Territorial Defence that appointed Marko Bozanovic, and also Alija

11     Fitozovic as the chief, and the other person was the commander.

12        Q.   On what legal basis was the command for the town of

13     Bosanski Samac appointed?  It wasn't a command for the town, a municipal

14     command?

15        A.   Well, on the document the OTP showed us, it said "Town Command."

16     Well, that's what it said, "Town Command," but, in fact, these were

17     people who were concerned about their future and, therefore, wanted to

18     see that within the legal institutions, units be established.  So they

19     put their names down to become members.  The Croats and Serbs were

20     supposed to give several thousand people like that?

21        Q.   Do you know that the Territorial Defence units could have existed

22     and could exist only in cooperation with the JNA; they could not --

23     Territorial Defence units could not exist without the JNA?

24        A.   No, I don't know that.  The Territorial Defence came under the

25     authority of the republic, and the JNA was under the authority of the

Page 12612

 1     state.

 2        Q.   Mr. Tihic, that was the case until 1987.  In 1987, that was

 3     changed.  That means several years before the war broke out.

 4        A.   I don't think that's correct.

 5        Q.   Mr. Tihic --

 6        A.   Well, I don't know all the provisions very well, but I know that

 7     the Territorial Defence came under the republics, at the level of the

 8     republic.

 9        Q.   When an expert like this tells you that in 1987, Mr. Tihic, the

10     General Staff of the JNA was renamed the General Staff of the

11     Armed Forces, and the Presidency of the SFRY took over the Command of the

12     Territorial Defence and not only the JNA, and it was pursuant to an order

13     from the Presidency of the SFRY that in 1999, they took over the weapons

14     from the depots and warehouses of the Territorial Defence, because the

15     SFRY Presidency concluded that at the proposal of the General Staff of

16     the JNA, that it was too dangerous, that the Republican leadership should

17     have such strong powers over the Territorial Defence and the armed forces

18     should be united.  So you don't know about that?

19        A.   I don't remember all these details, as you call them.  I do know

20     that the JNA took over the weapons from the Territorial Defence depots.

21     I know that an order like that arrived.  Now, who issued the order,

22     whether it was the Presidency or the Ministry or whoever, the Staff, I

23     don't know.

24        Q.   Well, the press published articles saying that it was pursuant to

25     an SFRY Presidency decision.

Page 12613

 1        A.   I'm sure that there are documents about that.

 2        Q.   The OTP have all those documents, but, unfortunately, during the

 3     proofing sessions, they didn't show them to you.  But never mind.

 4             We've just observed the way in which the JNA took over control of

 5     Samac, and you said that a mass crime had been committed in Supina [as

 6     interpreted].  But I think these were only rumours, because it was

 7     investigated during the Samac group trial, Blagoje Simic et al, and

 8     nothing was proved.  No traces of a crime were found, no bodies, nothing;

 9     nor was it established who the people were who could have been killed

10     there.

11        A.   Mr. Seselj, all that's been proved and shown.  The crime was

12     committed before the eyes of hundreds of people in that camp over there,

13     in the Bosanka factory warehouse, and we do know who the people were who

14     were killed and how long the liquidation lasted.  That's what I can tell

15     you.  Now, the bodily remains of those people over there were buried.

16     The fact that they had been buried and cannot be uncovered is another

17     matter.  But the crime did take place, and both Serbs and Bosniaks and

18     Croats and everybody can tell you about them.  So there's no point in

19     denying that.

20        Q.   Well, how come The Hague Tribunal wasn't able to prove that that

21     actually did happen?

22        A.   Well, I think it did prove it.  It did show that it happened,

23     because there were people on both sides -- on all three sides who saw it

24     take place.  It was public liquidation in front of the camp inmates, 16

25     people, 18 people, or however many.  There are the names and surnames of

Page 12614

 1     the people there, so don't try and deny that.  That's something that is

 2     very well known.

 3        Q.   I'm just asking you.  I'm not denying anything.  I'm expecting an

 4     answer, because as you know, I wasn't there and didn't see anything with

 5     my own eyes.  But never mind, let's move on.

 6             You said that the conflict would never have arisen had there not

 7     been intervention from outside, mostly from Belgrade -- or, rather, from

 8     the Serb side and the JNA.  However, I'm sure you know just how much the

 9     Croats in your municipality arm themselves and how much weapons they

10     receive from Croatia; right?

11        A.   I said that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the conflict would never have

12     arisen if the Bosnian Serbs and Croats and Bosniaks were asked, and that

13     the conflicts through history occurred when there was interference and

14     meddling from the surrounding parts, not only the Serbs.  Conflicts

15     occurred during world wars, and regional conflicts for that matter as

16     well.

17             Specifically speaking, when we're talking about this last war,

18     there was more intensive interference and meddling on the part of the

19     Serbs.  I don't want to deny that there was interference on the Croatian

20     side, but Serbia was more intense in that because Serbia had the army.

21     It had the JNA, and that's why the Serbs behaved like that.  Might is

22     right.  They had might behind them.

23        Q.   Now, what could have been the role of the JNA, except to preserve

24     Yugoslavia?  The JNA had no other role, did it?

25        A.   I think that in a way, more or less, it was included into the

Page 12615

 1     project of the creation of a Greater Serbia.

 2        Q.   That's just what you think.  You have no proof or evidence of

 3     that.  Mr. Tihic, you never heard that any of the Serbs strove and

 4     advocated a Greater Serbia, except for me; right?

 5        A.   Well, yes, you stated your views loud and clear and advocated

 6     that clearly.

 7        Q.   I'm doing so today, too.

 8        A.   Well, maybe other people didn't do it as officially and loudly as

 9     you, but they did.

10        Q.   I've never heard of anybody else saying things like that.

11        A.   Well, you were the most consistent in that respect.

12        Q.   If others ever spoke about that, I did not hear them.

13        A.   Well, they were working on accomplishing this project.

14        Q.   Mr. Tihic, conflicts in Bosnia-Herzegovina occurred when the

15     three national parties started disagreeing?

16        A.   No, not after that.  Those parties were the least to be asked

17     about anything, or Bosnians the least of them all.  We wanted to avoid

18     conflicts.

19        Q.   You declared yourselves as Muslims, and those outside wanted you

20     to change your label into "Bosniaks," somewhere in 1993?

21        A.   No, that was not the way it was.  "Bosniaks" is an ancient term.

22     We reinstated it.  It used to exist for hundreds of years.

23        Q.   Mr. Tihic, "Bosniaks" is a label for all people who lived in

24     Bosnia, and since I was born in Bosnia, I'm as much a Bosniak as you are.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The translation is lagging

Page 12616

 1     behind by at least three questions and three answers.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will slow down.  Hopefully, we

 3     will manage.

 4        Q.   Do I have the equal right to call myself "Bosniak" as you do?  Do

 5     you know I was born in Sarajevo?

 6        A.   I know that you were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, maybe from

 7     Herzegovina, maybe you were born even in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   I was born in Sarajevo.  I would know where I was born.

 9        A.   I think that you came from Herzegovina.

10        Q.   I was born in the maternity ward of the Sarajevo Hospital.  Do I

11     have the right to call myself a Bosniak?

12        A.   Everybody has the right to call themselves what they like.

13        Q.   This right does not entail ethnic affiliation.

14        A.   "Bosniak" is an ethnic affiliation, but not an affinity towards a

15     certain territory.

16        Q.   But the question was:  This only was reinstated in 1991?

17        A.   No, that's not correct.  We have hundreds of years of tradition

18     of using that term.

19        Q.   But people denoted by this term were not considered as a nation.

20     Your President Alija Izetbegovic, for decades, he declared himself as a

21     Serb of Muslim religious affiliation.

22        A.   Well, for decades, he could not have declared himself as a

23     Muslim.  This was not allowed.  People either had to declare themselves

24     as Serbs, Croats, or without ethnic affiliation.

25        Q.   Fine.  You said that the JNA organised the 4th Detachment of the

Page 12617

 1     17th Tactical Group, and you mentioned that there were Muslims in that

 2     detachment as well.  Did the JNA want all the Muslims to get involved

 3     into the composition of those detachments, those who were able-bodied and

 4     those who were subject to national service?

 5        A.   No, I don't believe that they selected people.

 6        Q.   Do you know that in Bosnia, why did the JNA want to carry out

 7     mobilisation, and that call-up was heeded mainly by the Serbs; Croats,

 8     almost none of them; and Muslims, to a certain degree?

 9        A.   This is known to me.  We did not heed the call-up because we did

10     not want to take part in the war that was ongoing and that was

11     forthcoming.  We didn't want to be part of a policy of creation of a

12     Greater Serbia, because the JNA had profiled itself in this respect.

13        Q.   Mr. Tihic, three national parties, the SDA, which organised the

14     Muslims, the Party of Democratic Action, then the SDS, Serbian Democratic

15     Party and the Serbian Democratic Union, at the elections towards the end

16     of 1990, worked together to overthrow the communist regime and to set up

17     a coalition government; isn't that correct?

18        A.   That's correct.  First of all, they wanted to topple the

19     communist regime.

20        Q.   And since the election system was complicated, one had to vote

21     separately for rosters of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims; for instance, for

22     the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They supported each other.  SDS

23     called on Serbs to vote for Alija Izetbegovic and Fikret Abdic, as their

24     candidates; and the SDA called on Muslims to vote for Biljana Plavsic and

25     Nikola Koljevic; isn't that correct?

Page 12618

 1        A.   When it came to the election of members of the Presidency, then

 2     people voted along ethnic lines; in other words, they voted along party

 3     lines.  It is true that they were called on to vote for the other groups'

 4     representatives.

 5        Q.   This was done so that proportional votes would be counted, and

 6     voting was done separately for Croatian, Serb, and Muslim candidates; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes, and vice versa.

 9        Q.   So the ties between the three national parties were so strong

10     that they wiped the communists out of power; am I right in saying so?

11        A.   They were working in concert to move -- remove communists from

12     power.

13        Q.   And then those three parties formed a coalition government?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And that government functioned all throughout the time before the

16     outbreak of war in Croatia; isn't that correct?

17        A.   The government functioned, approximately --

18        Q.   Towards the end of 1991?

19        A.   -- towards the end of 1991 and beginning of 1992, before the

20     referendum, when SDS members of Parliament withdrew from the

21     Bosnia-Herzegovinian assembly and government.

22        Q.   Until the independent referendum; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, the 28th of February and the 1st of March, 1992, when the

24     referendum took place.

25        Q.   Is it known to you that such a referendum, which decides on the

Page 12619

 1     key question of status of Bosnia-Herzegovina, could be held only pursuant

 2     to the consensus of political representatives of all three peoples?

 3        A.   The decision on the referendum was reached through parliamentary

 4     procedure.  Most of the Serbian representatives were against.  All SDS

 5     members and members of Parliament voted against the referendum, but that

 6     referendum was fully legal, pursuant to the laws and Constitution, and it

 7     was conducted as such.  So it would have been better if support from the

 8     SDS were forthcoming, but they had left the Assembly.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you are a lawyer.  You know the Constitution of the

10     BiH.  Didn't the three peoples, the Serbs, Croats and Muslims - this is

11     how it's stated in the Constitution, then the order of listing the

12     peoples are changed intentionally to underline the equality - were those

13     peoples constituent peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   Yes, constituent peoples and equal.

15        Q.   What -- how do you ascribe the quality of being a constituent

16     people?  That means that each people is a constitutional factor, without

17     whose will the Constitution cannot be changed?

18        A.   All international organisations, the International Community,

19     accepted that referendum as lawful.  More than 64 per cent of the

20     inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina voted for independence.

21        Q.   Mr. Tihic, a huge number of countries of the world recognise this

22     Tribunal as legal, although it is not.  So the fact that somebody from

23     outside recognised what you did doesn't mean that your deed is lawful,

24     because in the West, there are fewer people who understand the specific

25     Yugoslav theory of being a constituent people.

Page 12620

 1        A.   First of all, I think that this Tribunal is legal.  It was

 2     established by the UN.  The question of constituent peoples in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina and their equality was resolved in one manner in the

 4     communist or socialist constitution, and in another manner following the

 5     Dayton Accords.  According to that then-Constitution, this referendum was

 6     legal.

 7        Q.   Mr. Tihic, that referendum was not -- did not have legal effect,

 8     because the Constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina was not changed in the way

 9     that the Constitution forces.

10        A.   By that time, the Constitution had not been changed.

11        Q.   But it was changed afterwards?

12        A.   Yes.  After independence was declared, there were certain changes

13     to the Constitution.

14        Q.   What I want to say is this:  The status of a Constitution of

15     people is a legal formulation which preempts majorisation, which was

16     out-voting.  It was a constitutionally-enshrined mechanism preventing one

17     people to be out-voted by the other two people.  Muslims counted

18     42 per cent at that time in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbs were some 35,

19     17 of Croats, et cetera.  But the Constitution guaranteed that two

20     peoples would team up against the third people and impose their will on

21     that third people.  The Constitution demanded that each status issue in

22     question in Bosnia-Herzegovina be resolved through full consent of the

23     representatives of all three peoples; am I correct?

24        A.   A referendum was not organised for the peoples to vote, but

25     citizens, and 64 per cent of citizens voted.  How many of them were

Page 12621

 1     Muslims, Croats, or Serbs, I don't know.

 2        Q.   This is exactly what the Constitution barred.  Had it been

 3     enshrining the concept of citizens, then the Constitution would not have

 4     cited which peoples were constituent people and altered the order of

 5     their mention, and that the Constitution did not speak about citizens.

 6             It recognises the notion of constituent people to prevent

 7     out-voting a certain constituent people at referendums, the same way that

 8     they voted for different candidates at elections, voting for the other

 9     groups' candidates for the Presidency, the same way a referendum was

10     possible if a majority of Serbs were to vote for something, a majority of

11     Muslims to vote for, and a majority of Croats to be voting for.

12             This was the only way that independence could have been voted

13     for?

14        A.   None of our legal instruments foresaw constituent peoples to

15     vote.  That right lies with individual citizens.  All legal instruments

16     to protect constituent peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina were used, and the

17     referendum decision was adopted pursuant to the laws and Constitution.

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, through his

20     question, ascertains that the referendum was illegal.  This is not the

21     first time that he is saying this, and he is repeating it again here.

22             As a lawyer, what I would like to know from you is this:  Did the

23     Constitution allow for a referendum, notwithstanding the issue of the

24     constituent people?  Was a referendum authorised by the Constitution?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, sir.  It was

Page 12622

 1     possible to hold a referendum pursuant to the Constitution if the

 2     Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina were to invoke it, and the Assembly did so

 3     pursuant to the effective laws, and this is how it was conducted.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Tihic, the Constitution did not permit a referendum to change

 6     constitutional provisions; isn't that correct?  The Constitution laid

 7     down a strict procedure for its amendments.  A referendum could not be

 8     used to amend the Constitution; am I right?

 9        A.   You're not.

10        Q.   Which constitutional provision provided for a referendum to be

11     used to change or amend the Constitution?

12        A.   Referendum did not change the Constitution.  We voted at the

13     referendum on whether the inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina were in

14     favour of an autonomous, independent, sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That

15     referendum did not vote on certain provisions of the Constitution.

16        Q.   But the Constitution was being violated, because in its initial

17     provisions, the Constitution says that the Socialist Republic of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a sovereign state - and, here, we see the

19     constituent people are a sovereign people - is associated into the SFRY

20     as an equal republic of the Federation.  Is my interpretation good?

21        A.   No, it's not.

22        Q.   Can you give me a better interpretation of the Constitution?

23        A.   The Assembly adopted a decision on the referendum.  The

24     referendum was conducted pursuant to the effective legislation at the

25     time.  It was completely legal, lawful.  And if somebody thought that

Page 12623

 1     Constitution was violated, they could have petitioned the Constitutional

 2     Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, claiming that such a decision was

 3     counter-constitutional.

 4             Today, we can spend the whole day discussing whether it was

 5     constitutional or unconstitutional, but I and many international legal

 6     experts, including those in the Badinter Commission, thought that this

 7     referendum was constitutional.  You think that it wasn't.

 8             If somebody wants to -- felt that this was unconstitutional, they

 9     could have petitioned the Constitutional Court.  Only the Constitutional

10     Court had it within its purview to rescind that.

11        Q.   Do you know that all the scallywags that we've had occasion to

12     contact together with the Badinter Commission, and this, the Brcko

13     commission, et cetera, nobody entered the constitutionality of that?

14             I'm talking about the Constitution as it was written, and I'm not

15     discussing the opinions of those who never read that Constitution.  When

16     Muslims and Croats said that they wanted independence, and the Serbs

17     said --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you referred to the

19     Badinter Commission, and you said "the foreigners who have not read our

20     Constitution."  What you are saying is rather an extraordinary statement.

21             Do you believe that also, Witness, that people from the outside

22     had not read the Constitution?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Badinter Commission was an

24     expert legal commission.  They read all the constitutions, the SFRY's

25     Constitution, the republic's constitution, and they concluded that

Page 12624

 1     pursuant to all the constitutions, federal or republican, the decision on

 2     getting independence could have been taken.  They said this ought to be

 3     done via a referendum, and this is what they said.  This commission

 4     comprised the top legal experts who were cognizant of the Constitution of

 5     the Federation and the federal republics of the time.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You Muslims decide that you want independence; the Croats decide

 8     that they want independence; and the Serbs also decide, by way of a

 9     referendum, that they want to remain in Yugoslavia.  They had lived in

10     Yugoslavia until then, and they wanted to live in Yugoslavia in the

11     future, too; whereas you, who want independence, you can secede, you can

12     obtain independence.

13             Is it clear to you that the Serbs could not allow this kind of

14     out-voting, and that by way of out-voting the Serbs, at the referendum,

15     you caused a bloody civil war?

16        A.   That's not the way it was, you know.  I said that the citizens

17     voted on a referendum in accordance with the Constitution.  As for all

18     the actions that took place leading to the war, as you saw the

19     proclamation of different kinds of Serb autonomous districts and

20     municipalities, and the interference of the JNA, the war had already

21     started even before this referendum, if I can put it that way.  There was

22     a state of war precisely because of this policy of a Greater Serbia that

23     had, as its objective, to annex parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina or all of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina in to Serbia.

25        Q.   However, you used to be a supporter of the Belgrade declaration,

Page 12625

 1     and you supported the policies of Adil Zulfikarpasic and Muhamed

 2     Filipovic, who wanted Yugoslavia to stay on, even a smaller Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   I never supported Adil Zulfikarpasic or Filipovic's party.  This

 4     was a small political party in Bosnia-Herzegovina that tried to

 5     contribute to the prevention of a war in the territory of the former

 6     Yugoslavia.  We were in favour of preserving Yugoslavia as a federative

 7     or confederative state in which all the republics would stay on,

 8     including Croatia, too, at least.

 9        Q.   All right.  Tomorrow, then, we will have an opportunity to

10     discuss some questions of principle as well.  Up until the end, we have

11     only a few minutes left, so we'll just deal with something very, very

12     briefly.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're quite right.

14     We shall proceed tomorrow, because we've just about reached the moment

15     when it is time to stop.  Let me remind you, Mr. Seselj, that you've had

16     45 minutes so far.

17             Witness, as you know, you are a witness of the Court, since you

18     have taken the oath, and you know full well now that you cannot have any

19     contacts with the OTP.  So let me recommend that you do not discuss these

20     matters with anyone, and we shall be happy to see you again tomorrow

21     morning at 8.30.  Rest assured, Mr. Seselj will finish his

22     cross-examination.  There might be some redirect.  The Bench may also put

23     questions to you.  But, normally speaking, your testimony should be over

24     by tomorrow.

25             I wish you all a pleasant afternoon, and we shall meet again, as

Page 12626

 1     I have said, tomorrow morning at 8.30.

 2             Thank you.  The court stands adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.14 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

 5                           December, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.