Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12627

 1                           Thursday, 4 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Vojislav Seselj.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Thursday, the 4th of December, 2008.  I would like,

15     first of all, to greet Mr. Tihic, the representatives of the OTP, as well

16     as their associates.  I would like to greet Mr. Seselj, as well as all

17     the people assisting us in this courtroom, the Registrar and the usher,

18     without forgetting the interpreters.

19             We shall resume the cross-examination today.  Mr. Seselj, you

20     have one hour and 15 minutes left, according to the calculations made by

21     our Registrar.  I shall give you the floor for the rest of your

22     cross-examination.

23                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN TIHIC [Resumed]

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj [Continued]

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 12628

 1        Q.   Mr. Tihic, right up until 1990, you were a member of the League

 2     of Communists, right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then you saw that the party had in fact not been a success,

 5     it had fallen through, you didn't see any prospects there, but you

 6     waivered with respect to becoming a member in one of these

 7     newly-established parties?

 8        A.   Well, could you let me answer that question?

 9        Q.   But not too long.

10        A.   It's difficult to say just "yes" or "no," so I'd like to explain.

11             I had a dilemma for a long time because I lived in a time and

12     system that were different.  My father was a partisan.  I'm from a

13     partisan family, and the party of the day was the organiser of the

14     uprising, and there was a tradition linked to the party which existed at

15     the time, so I was facing a dilemma in my family, too, whether I should

16     go and join up with one of the other newly-established parties.  And when

17     I saw that the League of Communists could not survive and that, because

18     of all the baggage it had with it and all the various processes that were

19     developing, it would have no clout and no power, I opted for the Party of

20     Democratic Action, first of all, because I thought that that party would

21     devote most of its activities to Bosnia and Herzegovina, not to only one

22     nation, one ethnic group, but Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole, whether it

23     was in a Yugoslavia that would be federal, confederal, or whatever.  And

24     in that particular party, they did not have a platform of forming

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a state, but to protect the rights and freedoms of

Page 12629

 1     the people living within it.

 2        Q.   But at the beginning, you had a great deal of reservations

 3     towards the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA party, and its leader,

 4     Alija Izetbegovic; isn't that right?

 5        A.   No, I didn't have any reservations or special dilemmas.

 6     Actually, my dilemma was whether I was going to join that party or

 7     whether I was going to remain in the League of Communists.  But I saw

 8     that the League of Communists was incapable of fulfilling and meeting up

 9     the times that were coming, so I thought that of all the Bosnian parties,

10     it was the SDA party that would most be able to do that.

11        Q.   And you had problems with people in Samac who formed branches of

12     the SDA; you didn't consider that they were worthy of your trust and

13     confidence?

14        A.   Well, that's not right.  It was just that people -- it was people

15     who didn't understand politics and weren't engaged in politics in those

16     times.  They were people that had secondary-level education without any

17     political experience, experience in economic matters and so on.  And when

18     I was on the ticket, the other people there were mostly tradesmen, people

19     who had various skills, bakers and so on.

20        Q.   But that was later.  That was when you already became a member.

21     But you were wavering, because you considered that they weren't people

22     who enjoyed particular respect in Bosanski Samac?

23        A.   Well, they were ordinary people, working people.

24        Q.   Mr. Tihic, the Prosecutor disclosed a document to me, I wouldn't

25     have got it otherwise, a text of yours called "Remembrance."  And I use

Page 12630

 1     that word "sjecanje" because you use the "ch" in the spelling.  It should

 2     be "sjecanja."  But you wrote it for the State Commission for Collecting

 3     Data about War Crimes?

 4        A.   No, I wrote that when I emerged from the camp, because as time

 5     went on, I thought that I was beginning to forget things and the order

 6     and sequence of events, what happened in what camp, so in order not to

 7     forget those events or, rather, mix them up and put events that took

 8     place in one camp into another, I wrote this book, "Remembrance," which

 9     would help me to remember the sequence of events, how they followed each

10     other chronologically.

11        Q.   Well, it helped me to get a better knowledge of your life and

12     experience, because they have severed my contacts with my associates, so

13     it was only on the basis of documents provided me by the Prosecution that

14     I was able to prepare this cross-examination.

15             But, anyway, on page 2 of that very extensive text, 60 pages, you

16     say you attended the founding assemblies of all -- or, rather, the

17     promotional meetings of all the parties that were set up in

18     Bosanski Samac, and then you say that this party, the Party of Democratic

19     Action, didn't suit you.  And I'm quoting you now:

20             "It was mostly a group of people who did not enjoy any particular

21     respect in the environment of Samac, and people who had come into Samac

22     from other places.  So they were ordinary people, and various activists

23     talked to me and we discussed becoming a member of the SDA.  They offered

24     me the post of president, if only I would accept becoming a member of the

25     party," because they thought that if you joined, you would draw in the

Page 12631

 1     more respected citizens of Sarajevo, prominent citizens of Sarajevo.  So

 2     that's your assessment about the SDA when it was formed?

 3        A.   Well, mostly all the parties at the beginning had this kind of

 4     problems with the membership, and when power was set up, they found that

 5     they had a lack of well-educated people with political experience.

 6        Q.   Then you thought about joining the Liberal Party, led by Rasim

 7     Kadic; right?

 8        A.   Yes, and those were the dilemmas that I spoke about.  I had this

 9     dilemma.

10        Q.   But you were disillusioned by that party, too, and then you gave

11     up on the idea?

12        A.   Well, I almost came to the party building to join up, but then

13     they issued a statement, a proclamation, which reminded me of the

14     political work of the League of Communists, because it was Rasim Kadic

15     was only present at the establishment meeting of the SDA.  Because he was

16     there, they criticised him for that.

17        Q.   Well, you thought they weren't tolerant enough?

18        A.   Yes, that's right, because it was quite normal that as a member

19     of one party, you would attend founding meetings of other parties.

20        Q.   I understand you completely, because I attended these Democratic

21     Party when it was formed, but it was -- nothing was furthest from my mind

22     than to become a member of that party.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down

24     and speak one at a time.  Otherwise, it's impossible to interpret.  Thank

25     you.

Page 12632

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj and Mr. Tihic, once again I'm sorry to

 2     interrupt you.  The interpreters are having such a hard time following

 3     you, so please, both of you, slow down, speak slower, and please do

 4     observe a short pause between question and answer.  Thank you.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You say here that at the first elections, only 50 per cent of the

 7     Muslims voted for the SDA; right?  The rest voted for the other parties?

 8        A.   Well, that was on the basis of the results that were achieved.

 9     The Bosniak electorate could vote for four MPs, four seats, and the SDA

10     two.

11        Q.   In the second part of 1991, you began to help the SDA in its

12     work, and sometime in autumn you became a member; right?

13        A.   No.  I had become a member earlier on, in 1990, but in 1991 I was

14     elected president of the Party of Democratic Action.

15        Q.   Well, it says here "1991," and then somebody corrected that and

16     put "1990."  So you say the autumn of 1990?

17        A.   Yes.  I was on the ticket, on the party ticket, and the elections

18     were on the 18th of October; that is to say, before the 18th of October,

19     I became a member of the SDA in 1990.

20        Q.   It was already clear then that the communists would lose the

21     elections, and it was your goal to bring as many respected members of the

22     community into the SDA?

23        A.   Well, that wasn't only my objective.  Many prominent citizens,

24     Bosniaks, tried to prevail upon me to join the SDA.  They said, "You're a

25     lawyer.  It's easier for you.  We have -- we work for the state, but

Page 12633

 1     we'll join up later on."

 2        Q.   In September 1990, the founding meeting in Bosanski Samac was

 3     held, at which Alija Izetbegovic took part?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right, he did.

 5        Q.   Yesterday, I was surprised to hear one of your answers, your

 6     answer, in fact, to my last question before we broke for the day, when

 7     you said that you never supported Adil Zulfikarpasic, Muhamed Filipovic,

 8     and their Bosniak-Muslim organisation, whereas in your statement on

 9     page 3, I see the following, you say that several days before this

10     assembly at which Alija Izetbegovic took part, and then I quote you:

11             "There was a rift in the party when Adil Zulfikarpasic and Tunjo

12     Filipovic separated."  Tunjo Filipovic.  "Tunjo," that's the nickname for

13     Muhamed Filipovic, "and that created a dilemma for me, whether to join up

14     with the party because at that time I preferred their views, and that was

15     the reason why I did not join the SDA membership publicly on that

16     occasion."

17             So those are your own words.  You say here that you preferred

18     their political positions and that you supported them?

19        A.   Well, that was one of the dilemmas, why I had to decide whether

20     or not to join the SDA party, because Professor Muhamed Filipovic was a

21     respected figure, personage, Zulfikarpasic, too.  We had that on one

22     side, and Alija Izetbegovic was very popular on the other amongst the

23     people.  So I gave the matter a lot of thought.  And then we had the

24     personage of Fikret Abdic looming, but that did not mean that I supported

25     some of the late activities of Muhamed Filipovic and Zulfikarpasic, such

Page 12634

 1     as the agreement you mentioned yesterday, the agreement with Milosevic,

 2     the historical agreement as it was referred to, and I said that I did not

 3     support that.

 4        Q.   Adil Zulfikarpasic was a very prominent personage among the

 5     Serbian people as well until his death two or three years ago; do you

 6     agree, he was well respected?

 7        A.   He was well respected among the Bosniaks, among the Serbs and the

 8     Croats, because he was a person of great tolerance.  He was an emigre who

 9     helped Bosnia and Herzegovina and the political prisoners even before,

10     before the times of communism, and among others Mr. Izetbegovic, and then

11     he set up the Bosniak Institute in Sarajevo.

12        Q.   But he was a very prominent democratic and not burdened by

13     religious fundamentalism?

14        A.   Yes, he was a great democratic.

15        Q.   All right.  We agree on that point.  Now, you really do say here

16     that as the elections grew near, you had to decide, and in the meantime

17     Fikret Abdic joined the SDA as well.  And then there were large rallies

18     that were held in Foca and Velika Kladusa, magnanimous meetings, and you

19     decided to join the party then?

20        A.   Those dilemmas went on throughout 1990 for a few months, seven or

21     eight months, in fact, and certainly those meetings and the fact that

22     prominent Bosniaks had joined up with the SDA tipped the scales, and I

23     joined too.

24        Q.   And here on page 3, you say that the Muslims of Samac, from a

25     distance, viewed the activities of the SDA.  Some supported it and were

Page 12635

 1     in favour -- well, mostly quiet support -- and the other section of the

 2     population publicly opposed it?

 3        A.   The Muslims of Samac, like the majority of Bosnians, liked

 4     Yugoslavia.  They liked that time, those times of Josip Broz Tito.  It

 5     provided security and safety, both social and in every other respect, and

 6     they were not able to accept changes as quickly.  And if I had the

 7     dilemma, and if I can say so, I understood things better than the

 8     ordinary man in the street and it was a dilemma for me, then they had an

 9     even bigger one.  So the Muslims of Samac liked Yugoslavia, and the

10     Bosniaks generally in Bosnia-Herzegovina liked Yugoslavia, and even in

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina you still have streets named after Marshal Tito

12     and remembrances of Avnoj, the anti-fascist, liberation of Yugoslavia and

13     so on, and many Muslims joined up the 4th --

14        Q.   Many Muslims joined the 4th Detachment under the 17th Tactical

15     group; isn't that right?  We talked about that yesterday.

16        A.   Yes, some Bosniaks did join up, those who still thought that the

17     JNA was an army belonging to us all.  They believed in Yugoslavia and

18     that it could be preserved, and those who had been linked to the security

19     structures previously and the army especially so.

20        Q.   But there's another factor.  The Muslims of Samac were never

21     prone, in the majority, to any religious fundamentalism.  They were not

22     prone to place religion up above everything else in the life of the

23     society.  Of course, that doesn't mean they weren't good Muslims.  They

24     were good Muslims, some more, some less, but they always took into

25     account religious tolerance, right, and couldn't be compared to certain

Page 12636

 1     environments in Bosnia, where the situation was quite different?

 2        A.   Well, you see, our historical experience, when it comes to life

 3     in Bosanski Samac and that general area, we lived with the Serbs and the

 4     Croats, and our life together was positive.  We always kept our

 5     traditions and our religion, but there were no expulsions, no

 6     persecution.  That's how I behaved, and that's how all the other Muslims

 7     of Samac behaved.

 8        Q.   A large number of these Muslims did not like the policies of

 9     Alija Izetbegovic.  Alija Izetbegovic was already well known as an

10     Islamic fundamentalist and a pan-Islamist; right?

11        A.   Well, you saw the outcome of the election.  After all, at that

12     time, when people were still not fully aware of what was going on,

13     50 per cent supported the SDA, the list that I talked about, the ticket

14     that I talked about.  It really did not include the best people.  That is

15     to say that the SDA and Alija Izetbegovic won half of the votes in towns.

16     However, it's the SDP that prevailed in that election throughout

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It wasn't Alija Izetbegovic.  Whereas in Samac, the

18     Bosniak Muslims, that was the case only in town.  The SDA or the HDZ and

19     the SDS did not win a majority in any one of the towns.

20        Q.   Let us not evade the essence of my question.  Do you agree with

21     me that a large number of citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muslims

22     included, believed that Alija Izetbegovic represented the hard-line

23     Islamic option, that he was a fundamentalist and pan-Islamist?

24        A.   I do not agree that it was a large number.  It was a small number

25     of the citizens, and that is shown by the outcome of the election,

Page 12637

 1     because the SDA did win about three-quarters of the Bosniak Muslim vote.

 2        Q.   But that was significantly contributed to by the fact that the

 3     three nationalist parties got together and people thought that this would

 4     strike the right kind of balance.  If these parties stayed together, then

 5     their negative aspects would be neutralised and they would have to seek

 6     compromise and lead Bosnia and Herzegovina with a proper understanding?

 7        A.   Well, now, why people voted the way they voted, we can discuss

 8     that for quite a while, can't we?  And in the late President Izetbegovic,

 9     they saw a victim of political persecution, and people tend to express

10     solidarity with people like that.

11        Q.   No doubt he was a victim of the communist regime, and he was held

12     responsible for the text that he hadn't even published before that.

13        A.   Yes.  He was held responsible on account of what was called

14     "verbal offences."  What he wrote was always taken out of the context of

15     what he was trying to say, and he was sentenced to harsh sentences that

16     he did not deserve.

17        Q.   I don't know whether you know, but the first petition that was

18     organised in favour of Izetbegovic and his group came from my hands.  Do

19     you know that?

20        A.   I didn't know that.  I know about the Belgrade intellectuals.

21        Q.   Before the Belgrade intellectuals, there was this meeting in

22     Komiza on the island of Vis, in the birthplace of Anto Fiamenko, a

23     well-known sociologists, and it was a gathering of sociologists, and I

24     initiated this petition that was signed by sociologists from Serbia,

25     Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That doesn't matter.  We do agree

Page 12638

 1     that he was convicted and spent time in prison for no reason whatsoever?

 2        A.   You've been saying yourself, sir, he was not a fundamentalist, he

 3     was not an extremist.  You wouldn't have signed a petition for a man who

 4     was a fundamentalist and an extremist.  He was a free thinker.  At that

 5     time, you weren't allowed to write what it was that you thought, and that

 6     is why he was held responsible.

 7        Q.   I think that everyone can think whatever they want and they can

 8     publish their thoughts.  However, if the thoughts are bad, then they

 9     should be subjected to public criticism.  People shouldn't be sent to

10     prison because of that.  That was my position in view of Izetbegovic.

11        A.   I agree, but he was not an extremist or a fundamentalist.  You

12     know, in the war, where Izetbegovic was in power, there were no mass

13     crimes.  He prevented that kind of thing.

14        Q.   Already in 1980, this notorious Islamic declaration of his was

15     published.  This was in 1989, in actual fact.  And after that, it was

16     published several times.  After that, there were other editions, too.

17     I'm just going to show you, by citing a few examples, that he was a pan

18     -Islamist and a Muslim fundamentalist.

19             I have here before me the first volume of the selected works of

20     Alija Izetbegovic that was published in 2005.  However, up until then,

21     this book had been published several times.  Do you agree?

22        A.   Yes, it was published before that.

23        Q.   As far as I can remember correctly, the first time was in 1989.

24        A.   I think you're right on that.

25        Q.   Slobodan Masic, who was an independent publisher, published it?

Page 12639

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   All right.  He says in his book that his objective was to create

 3     a synthesis of ideas --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Gentlemen, the

 5     interpreters are complaining.  Since you are both intellectuals, we are

 6     able to follow the question and the answers, because we understand the

 7     question very quickly and we know which way the answers will go.  But the

 8     interpreters' job is somewhat different, and every time they lose track,

 9     and you can see this on the screen, that they're having a hard time.

10             So once again, Witness, you are also a culprit.  Please wait

11     before you answer.  You may feel that we understand your language, but we

12     don't understand your language.  We understand which way the questions

13     and the answers are going, but we follow, but the interpreters can't keep

14     up, and the court interpreter -- the court reporter will have to leave

15     blanks on the transcript.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Already in the preface of this Islamic declaration of his, he

19     speaks of his objective; to create a synthesis of ideas that are

20     otherwise heard in different parts of the Islamic world and, as he says,

21     and now I'm quoting --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we do not have the text.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "To move on from ideas and plans to organised action in order to

25     have this implemented.  The struggle for new objectives does not start

Page 12640

 1     today."

 2             This is on page 130:

 3             "On the contrary, the history of this struggle already knows its

 4     sahids and the pages that were written about suffering and victims.

 5     After all, this is the result of the sacrifice made by individuals and

 6     groups.  The magnitude of the tasks and the difficulties calls for

 7     organised action on the part of millions."

 8             Tell me, please, he speaks of sahids here.  These are martyrs of

 9     Jihad, of the holy war for the faith; those are sahids, right?

10        A.   I do apologise for the speed at which we've been speaking.

11     I think that it's Mr. Seselj who's been setting the pace, and then I tend

12     to hurry a bit too much as well.

13             Mr. Izetbegovic did not, in a single one of his texts, call for

14     violence.  A sahid is a person who lost his or her life on God's path, as

15     it is said.  It can be in war and in peacetime for certain objectives, or

16     the faith, Islam, et cetera.  However, not in a single book, including

17     this one, "The Islamic Declaration," is there any reference made by

18     Izetbegovic about some movement that would mean violence.  He believed

19     that the Muslims had to be changed, that they had to adjust to the

20     changed situation in the world, that in a way time has left them behind,

21     that they were not following contemporary processes either in scholarly

22     or societal matters.  That is what he spoke about at many Islamic

23     conferences, when he addressed criticism to the Muslims of the world

24     because they were not adjusting.  He was a man of coexistence, tolerance.

25        Q.   Mr. Tihic, please, let us speak in more specific terms with

Page 12641

 1     regard to particular matters.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could all other microphones

 3     please be switched off.  There is a great deal of background noise and we

 4     can't hear the speakers.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We know that in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the

 7     Muslim-Croat federation, calls all the Muslims who lost their lives

 8     during the war sahids and their cemeteries are called Sahidsko Mezarija?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   How come you can say "no"?

11        A.   Well, I'll explain now.  In our federation, references are made

12     to the sahids and to the soldiers who got killed.  Both terms are used.

13     So sahids and killed soldiers are persons who lost their lives during the

14     war.  They were buried together.  They were buried at cemeteries,

15     "mezarluks," and people called them "sahidluks" [phoen].

16        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you were quite clear now.  In the law it says, sahids

17     and killed soldiers.  Sahids refers to killed Muslims, and killed

18     soldiers refers to killed soldiers.  Perhaps some Serbs got killed in

19     your army as well, and who knows.  Who knows what other ethnic

20     backgrounds were there.  Perhaps a Jew got killed, or who knows who else.

21     However, the word "sahids" refers to all Muslims who got killed.  You

22     see, they lost their lives for the faith.  They're holy warriors.

23        A.   That is not true.

24        Q.   All right.  If it's not true, let's move on.

25        A.   It is not true, because sahids who lost their lives and soldiers

Page 12642

 1     who lost their lives, this pertains to Muslims, who can be sahids as

 2     well.  There are Bosniaks who are atheists as well.  There are

 3     "sahidluks" where Serbs are buried, too.  At Kovaci, for instance, there

 4     are Serbs who also got killed, who fought in the Army of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the very outset.  There were about 20 per cent of

 6     the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who had other ethnic

 7     backgrounds, and it is only natural for such persons we cannot use the

 8     term "sahidi."  I think that not even the Bosniaks are sahids.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tihic, Mr. Tihic, all right, they're not, but there are very

10     many of those who are sahids, which is proof that they took part in a

11     religious war and that they are martyrs are fell for the faith.  From

12     that point of view, they are paid tribute to, and I'm not opposed to

13     that, but let us establish the facts.  And their kinsmen respect them for

14     that and the official authorities respect them for that.  They are

15     martyrs who fell for the faith, which means that they took part in a

16     religious war.  A religious war, in Islamic tradition, is called "Jihad,"

17     and this Jihad is what Izetbegovic mentions in his "Islamic Declaration";

18     is that right?

19        A.   No, that is not right.

20        Q.   If it's not, we'll move on.

21        A.   I have to answer why it is not the case.

22        Q.   Well, okay, go ahead.

23        A.   They got killed while defending Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They

24     defended their country, they defended their people, they defended their

25     family, they defended their own lives.  It is not only on account of

Page 12643

 1     faith, as you've been saying.  See, many people who got killed were not

 2     even practicing Muslims.

 3        Q.   It is Alija Izetbegovic who is refuting what you say.  On

 4     page 131 of the "Islamic Declaration," I quote --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we do not have the text.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   "People and individuals who espoused Islam are incapable after

 8     that of living and dying for any other ideal.  It is inconceivable that a

 9     Muslim would make a sacrifice for an emperor or a ruler, no matter what

10     his name may be, or for the glory of a nation, party, or anything of the

11     kind, because according to the strongest possible Islamic instincts, in

12     this he recognises a kind of paganism and idolatry.  A Muslim can lose

13     his life only with the name of Allah on his lips and for the glory of

14     Islam, or he can flee from the battlefield."

15             That is what is stated in Alija Izetbegovic's book.  Have you

16     read that book of his?

17        A.   Yes, I have read the book.  However, you are taking -- you are

18     just taking some excerpts out of context apart from the substance of that

19     book and the message conveyed by the book.  You can do that with any

20     book.

21        Q.   Mr. --

22        A.   Wait a minute.  I haven't finished yet.  In every book, you can

23     find some sections that have a different meaning when taken out of

24     context.

25        Q.   Mr. Tihic, precisely on this day in 1644, I believe it was,

Page 12644

 1     Cardinal Richelieu died, and he said a well-known thing, "Give me just

 2     one word, one line, from any piece or body of writing, and I will find

 3     cause for him to be sent to the gallows."  I agree that this is a

 4     dangerous thing.  However, this involves a large number of quotations,

 5     and the book itself is called "The Islamic Declaration."  I cannot read

 6     the entire book for you.

 7             Now, the OTP has the entire book translated into English, and

 8     they can submit this to the Trial Chamber, if they haven't already, so

 9     who wishes to read the book, can read the book.

10             However, since the OTP has also been showing just brief excerpts

11     of your interview to TV Novi Sad yesterday, we did not view it in its

12     entirety, it's impossible to present everything in its entirety here, I'm

13     compelled only to deal with a few quotations.  For example, yet another

14     quotation from part of the Declaration where Izetbegovic advocates an

15     Islamic order, and he says:

16             "The briefest definition of 'Islamic order 'defines it as the

17     unity of faith and law, upbringing and force, and the spiritual community

18     of the state, and voluntariness and coercion."

19             These are his words, and everyone in Bosnia knew that; Bosniaks,

20     Muslims, Croats, Serbs, et cetera.  And then he moves on to say:

21             "As the synthesis of these components, the Islamic Order has two

22     basic postulates:  the Islamic society and the Islamic authority.  The

23     first is substance and the second is form of the Islamic Order.  The

24     Islamic society without an Islamic authority is an unfinished one, it is

25     impotent.  Islamic authority without an Islamic society is either utopia

Page 12645

 1     or violence."

 2             And most importantly Izetbegovic says here:

 3             "A Muslim, for the most part, does not exist as an individual.

 4     If he wishes to live and to live on as a Muslim, he has to create a

 5     setting, a community, an order for him.  He has to change the world or he

 6     will be changed himself.  History does not know of a single Islamic

 7     movement which was not at the same time a political movement.  It is due

 8     to the fact that Islam is a faith, but at the same time it is a

 9     philosophy, a morality, an order of things, a style, an atmosphere; in a

10     word, an integral way of life.  One cannot believe in an Islamic way and

11     live and govern in a non-Islamic way or have fun in a non-Islamic way."

12             You see that this is an Islamic fundamentalist writing this,

13     according to his very own ideology; right?

14        A.   Will you allow me to respond now?

15        Q.   I've been letting you respond all along.  I've just been asking

16     you questions, and you're providing the answers.

17        A.   Well, now you put a question that is perhaps a page long.  It

18     contains different statements that I do not agree with, you see, and lest

19     there be a wrong impression involved, you're referring to, say, page 131.

20     The book has 150 pages.  You quoted here two or three pages.

21        Q.   Mr. Tihic, they take one sentence out of a speech of mine and

22     they ask me to spend my life in prison.  They asked that I be sentenced

23     for life, you see.

24        A.   May I just finish, and may I just make a comment?  May I just

25     make a comment in terms of what you have been stating?

Page 12646

 1             You know, the personality and the works of the late Izetbegovic

 2     cannot be viewed only in the quotations from a certain book.  His entire

 3     life is the life of a humanist, of a tolerant man, who suffered and was

 4     held accountable because of his thoughts.  There is no extremism or

 5     fundamentalism in the case of Izetbegovic.  There is no intention of

 6     forcing others to behave the way he wants them to.  He was always in

 7     favour of a Bosnia-Herzegovina where the Serbs and the Croats and the

 8     Jews and everybody else would be equal and where they would respect one

 9     another.  That is in the spirit of Islam as a faith.

10        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I have no intention of insulting either you or

11     Alija Izetbegovic.  We were opponents in war, and I'm now asking you

12     questions based on quotations.  It's up to you to answer, and I have no

13     reason to believe you have any reason to be angry with me.

14             On page 145, Alija Izetbegovic draws this conclusion.  I quote:

15             "Certainly, one must make the conclusion about the

16     incompatibility of Islam and Islamic systems.  There can be no peace or

17     coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic societal institutions.

18     Assuming the right to order the world its own way, Islam clearly excludes

19     the possibility of action of any foreign ideology in its own area.  If

20     you think this is a call to tolerance, that's your right."

21             On the next page, he says:

22             "There is no secular principle.  The state is supposed to uphold

23     the moral concepts of religion."

24             This is a well-known view of Alija Izetbegovic, isn't it, because

25     his book has been published in many editions and had a wide audience.

Page 12647

 1     Every semi-literate man in Bosnia-Herzegovina, be it Serb, Croat or

 2     Muslim, has read it.

 3        A.   May I answer?  President Izetbegovic has written books, and as

 4     you said, there is a collection of his books that he wrote in different

 5     periods of his life.  "The Islamic Declaration" belongs to an earlier

 6     period.  And President Izetbegovic, like any man, changed over his

 7     lifetime, changed his thinking, his views, which is perfectly logical,

 8     just like you did, just like I did, just like all of us do.  I could give

 9     you excerpts from other later books and quote many things that reflect

10     the real personality of Izetbegovic as a humanist who advocated peaceful

11     coexistence and tolerance.

12             When he withdrew from politics, he got congratulations from the

13     president of the US, from France, from many other states, not because

14     they feared him but because they respected him as a man who represented

15     peace, negotiation, agreement.

16        Q.   Do you know what regard I have for Jacques Chirac or Bill

17     Clinton?  They are all disgusting to me.  But that doesn't matter.  We

18     have the right to be different.

19             "The Islamic Declaration" is the major work of Alija Izetbegovic,

20     that is his main work, the work of his life.  That is indubitable.  This

21     is what he says about the upbringing of the people:

22             "The upbringing of the people, especially the means of mass

23     influence, radio, television, radio and film, should be in the hands of

24     the people whose Islamic moral and intellectual integrity is beyond

25     reproach.  It must not be allowed that these media fall into the hands of

Page 12648

 1     immoral people who would transfer their own deviations to others.  What

 2     would we do if the TV tower sends to the people completely contradictory

 3     messages?"

 4             In keeping with these views that he held, the State Television in

 5     Sarajevo and other major and minor media began to act; is that correct?

 6        A.   No, it is not.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's go on.  On page 154, he says:

 8             "Were it not for the --"

 9             Sorry:

10             "There can be no Islamic order without independence and freedom

11     and vice versa.  There is no independence and freedom without Islam.

12     This last position is important.  The Islamic order can be permanent only

13     if it is a sign of freedom conquered, if a people has found itself, then

14     found its internal force without which it cannot fill this freedom with

15     content and preserve its independence."

16             And then he is goes on to say:

17             "The real support that the Islamic people gives to the regime in

18     power is in direct proportion with the Islamic character of that power.

19     It is therefore the lesser, the farther the regime is from Islam.

20     Non-Islamic regimes, therefore, remain completely without this support,

21     and thus willy-nilly have to seek support from foreigners."

22             And now, when Alija Izetbegovic pushes this ideology at any cost,

23     even at the cost of war, and seeks independence for Bosnia-Herzegovina --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, first and foremost,

25     for everything to be clear, let me tell you that we are not here to try

Page 12649

 1     Mr. Izetbegovic.

 2             Secondly, regarding relevance, you have read this declaration.

 3     Fine.  It would be good to know when it was written, whether it was

 4     written before Mr. Izetbegovic was head of state or while he was heading

 5     the state, because it would be very different.

 6             Now, regarding relevance, what are you trying to demonstrate with

 7     this book?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm trying to demonstrate the

 9     nature of authority and government that Alija Izetbegovic tried to

10     inaugurate in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm demonstrating that the

11     Serbs, not even at the cost of their lives, wanted to reconcile

12     themselves with that government.  For speculative reasons, the Croats

13     supported him at first, but then went to war with him in 1993.  And

14     finally, even today's efforts of politicians in Bosnia to annul Republika

15     Srpska, to turn Bosnia and Herzegovina into a unitarian state, follow

16     this thrust of Islamic and pan-Islamic domination, and you chaired the

17     trial here, Mr. President, of people indicted for engaging Islamic

18     Mujahedin in the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you had the occasion

19     to familiarise yourself with the crimes of these Mujahedin.  You have

20     evidence of the involvement of al-Qaeda in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there

21     is al-Qaeda network in Bosnia-Herzegovina still today.  You heard about

22     Abu Hamza and many others.  You heard a witness testify about an

23     intelligence centre in Kiseljak.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I must say that

25     personally, I still do not understand what is the relevance to your

Page 12650

 1     Defence.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to demonstrate that for the

 3     Serbian people, there was only one option; to stay within Yugoslavia or

 4     to create their own state in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5     The Serbian people could never, by any means, reconcile themselves to the

 6     regime led by a man whose major work I just represented to you through a

 7     few brief quotations.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Mussemeyer.

 9     The witness would like to answer, because I believe that he is being

10     called upon.  But you wanted to say something, Mr. Mussemeyer?

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I don't want to prevent the witness to answer.

12     I have only a short observation.

13             Mr. Seselj is, like usual, quoting from documents which he did

14     not provide to the Prosecution before.  This is unprofessional.

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to respond to

18     what the Prosecutor just said.

19             I said to the court officer to convey to the Prosecution that I

20     would be using the statement of Mr. Tihic made available to me by the OTP

21     and the book of Alija Izetbegovic, "The Islamic Declaration."  I said

22     that -- I conveyed that verbally to the court officer, and I thought it

23     was arranged.  Now, where would I photocopy this document to give it

24     again to the Prosecution, and where would I photocopy the book that the

25     Prosecution certainly has?  You do have that book, and you must have read

Page 12651

 1     it.  And when you examined Sefer Halilovic at length, that book was also

 2     used.  There are a thousand pages of that examination of Sefer Halilovic.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe that

 4     the OTP must have Mr. Izetbegovic's book.  If you don't, I mean, that

 5     would be quite incredible.  Maybe you don't have it yourself, but I

 6     believe that the OTP has it.  Right?

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I agree with this, and I'm not sure that we have

 8     it, but I think we have it.  But it would be professional to provide the

 9     Prosecution, before the cross-examination starts, that the accused has

10     the intention to quote from this book, that we can prepare ourselves.

11     And for the -- it is true that we got information from the Registrar just

12     before we started this morning that Mr. Seselj is willing to quote from

13     Mr. Tihic's [sic] memories just to assist the Trial Chamber.  These

14     memories are part of the Prosecution exhibit list.  They are

15     number 65 ter 2094, and I think it should be moved into evidence, because

16     the accused is quoting from this, and therefore it has to go into

17     evidence.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Witness, you wanted

20     to answer.  Please, you have the floor.  You've listened to what

21     Mr. Seselj said regarding the relevance of his line of questioning.  I'm

22     not going to sum up what he said.  You know exactly what he said just as

23     well as I do.  But what did you want to say?  You have the floor.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I wanted to respond

25     to your question addressed to Mr. Seselj when that book was written.

Page 12652

 1             The book, "The Islamic Declaration," was written approximately 20

 2     years before Alija Izetbegovic was elected president.  That is the first

 3     thing I wished to say.

 4             Now, what kind of a book was it?  Because of that book, he was,

 5     among other things, indicted, and you heard from Mr. Seselj a moment ago

 6     that he had voiced his support to Alija Izetbegovic himself during that

 7     trial and protested against that trial.  That book was the subject of a

 8     trial in which Mr. Seselj was, in a way, involved.

 9             These stories about al-Qaeda, these are fabrications against

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That is a country in which Bosniak Muslims, as

11     an autonomous people, have lived for hundreds of years together with

12     Serbs and Croats, and they adjust their behaviour to the environment in

13     which they live.  There is no extremism or fundamentalism there,

14     especially not al-Qaeda.  Not a single terrorist act, not a single attack

15     has been registered in all this time against any building, against any

16     individual, against any representative of the International Community

17     where the Muslims live.  All these stories are part of a propaganda that

18     is an attempt to justify crimes and everything that happened in Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, the only question

21     that sums everything up is the question I will ask myself.

22             You have responsibilities with the SDA, so as far as you're

23     concerned, could you tell us whether, at the time of Mr. Izetbegovic, the

24     SDA was a religious political party or a secular political party, among

25     which members that were of a certain religion could exist?  In a

Page 12653

 1     nutshell, that's the question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Party of Democratic Action was

 3     a secular party, not because I say so but because that is written in its

 4     programme, its platform, its declaration, and it's in the document of

 5     registration of that party.  And it was also secular in its action, in

 6     its work for Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state of equal peoples.  It was

 7     said clearly at its founding Assembly that Bosnia and Herzegovina can be

 8     neither Serbian, nor Croat, nor Muslim.  It belongs to all those three

 9     and other peoples who feel the same way.

10             It is true, at the time of its founding, it was also struggling

11     for ethnic and religious rights of the Muslims.  It was one of our

12     objectives, because the Muslims were not recognised under their name,

13     "Bosniaks," and some other rights that other people in Yugoslavia enjoyed

14     were not granted to Muslims yet.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

16             Mr. Seselj.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you have said that Alija Izetbegovic never advocated

19     violence in "The Islamic Declaration."  I can refute that immediately.

20             On page 162, he says, I quote:

21             "Emphasising the priority of religious moral renewal cannot mean

22     nor can be interpreted to mean that the Islamic order is achievable

23     without Islamic government.  This position only means that our path does

24     not start with conquering power, but with conquering people, and that

25     Islamic renewal is, first of all, an upheaval in the area of upbringing

Page 12654

 1     and only then politics.  We have to preach politics first.  We have to be

 2     politicians and then soldiers.  Our weapons are books and words.  When

 3     will these means be joined by power?  The choice of this moment is always

 4     a specific question.  It depends on a number of factors.  Still, one

 5     general rule can be observed:  The Islamic movement should and can

 6     proceed to take over power as soon as it is numerically strong enough not

 7     only to topple the current power, but to build a new Islamic power.  This

 8     is very important, because destruction and construction do not require

 9     the same degree of psychological and material preparation.  Going too

10     early in this is as dangerous as going too late."

11             Am I right?

12        A.   You are certainly not right, and you are never right with regard

13     to Mr. Izetbegovic.

14             Mr. Alija Izetbegovic speaks of spiritual renewal here, because

15     in the past 50 years the Bosniak Muslims, like other peoples, had been

16     under an atheist government, and he's speaking primarily of a kind of

17     spiritual renewal, revival.

18        Q.   You deny that Alija Izetbegovic was a pan-Islamist,

19     ideologically, and here I have proof on 164 that he was a pan-Islamist.

20     He says:

21             "In one of the thesis for the Islamic order of today, we stated

22     that an actual function of the Islamic order is the aspiration to gather

23     all Muslims and all Islamic communities in the world.  In today's

24     circumstances, this aspiration means a struggle to create a greater

25     Islamic federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from tropical Africa to

Page 12655

 1     Central Asia."

 2             And then on the next page, 165, he goes on to say:

 3             "How does it happen that this popular pan-Islamism, indubitably

 4     present in the form of the feelings of the masses, remains without any

 5     influence on the actual policies of Islamic states?  Why does it remain

 6     at the level of feelings?  Why doesn't it rise to the level of awareness

 7     of a common Islamic fate?"

 8             And then he goes on to explain.  Is it proof of his pan-Islamist

 9     orientation?

10        A.   It is no proof of anything of the kind.  He just states his view

11     on the condition of Islam throughout the world, including various

12     countries with various dictatorships that exist in the world.  That's

13     probably what he meant to say, but it's very difficult for me to comment

14     here and now, "The Islamic Declaration" of President Izetbegovic, in the

15     context of your quotations and excerpts taken out of the whole, the

16     entirety of his life's actions and work.  It was very different from what

17     he was 20 years later, when many circumstances changed.

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you are the successor of Alija Izetbegovic, at the

19     head of the SDA party.  You are the legate of his ideology.  Even in the

20     middle of the night, if awakened suddenly, I can always answer questions

21     about great Serb nationalists, whose successor I am, from Laza Kostic and

22     other great figures and what they stated in their major works, and in the

23     same way I expect you to know well the ideology of your predecessor and

24     your spiritual father, if I may put it so.  This is his -- the major work

25     of his life.  He answers this question in this way, and I quote:

Page 12656

 1             "The answer to this question lies in the fact that contrary to

 2     the feelings of popular masses, there is the action of educated people,

 3     educated in the West, and they were pan-Islamists.  The actions were

 4     contrary to feelings, and in this sense any action will remain

 5     impossible.  Contemporary pan-Islamism is, in fact, an aspiration to

 6     harmonise feelings with action.  The state determines the character and

 7     the fate of Islamism in today's world."

 8             And then he comes down heavily upon various Arab regimes of

 9     secular character; the Syrian, Iraqi, Tunisian, et cetera.  Everything of

10     secular nature is a target of his attacks.  He is seeking a

11     fundamentalist regime; isn't that correct, Mr. Tihic?

12        A.   No, it isn't, that's not so.  Mr. Izetbegovic spoke about the

13     lack of unity among the Muslims in the world.  He spoke about that very

14     frequently and said that the Muslims were not -- did not profess

15     solidarity, the rich Muslims with the poor Muslims, and it was especially

16     President Izetbegovic who was opposed to dictatorship.  And what you

17     mentioned, Syria and Tunisia and those other countries you mentioned,

18     they were dictatorships, they were Soviets.

19        Q.   I visited some of those countries, for instance, Syria, I was in

20     Iraq, and those were countries which were of a very progressive

21     character, highly secular and religiously tolerant; whereas the countries

22     that are an example, as far as Alija Izetbegovic is concerned, like

23     Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and similar countries, cannot be taken to be

24     examples, good examples.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, to try and streamline

Page 12657

 1     these questions, it seems -- we stand to be corrected.  However, it seems

 2     that Mr. Seselj is putting forward the idea that the Serbs in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and amongst others, those in the Republika Srpska,

 4     got together and joined forces because they feared an Islamic state as

 5     part of a pan-Islamic order.  This is the underlying theory behind

 6     Mr. Seselj's questions.

 7             You are a major player in all of this.  What do you think about

 8     it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct.  Mr. Seselj is

10     attaching too great an importance to the book, "The Islamic Declaration."

11     In the life and work of Izetbegovic, Izetbegovic himself, it doesn't have

12     that importance.  And Mr. Seselj said that he was opposed to the -- to

13     taking Izetbegovic to trial.  The Serbs, in 1990, when they voted -- or,

14     rather, the Serbian party called upon the Serbs to vote for Izetbegovic

15     on the Izetbegovic ticket, and to vote for him personally.  Why would

16     they do that?  Why would they call upon the Serbs to vote for Izetbegovic

17     if Izetbegovic was some sort of fundamentalist who wanted to see a Muslim

18     Bosnia?  So that's just not true.

19             In his life and work, from his birth to the death, none of that

20     existed, and what Mr. Seselj is saying now is politicising and justifying

21     something.

22             The conflict came about because the Serbs wanted to remain in

23     Yugoslavia.  It's quite simple.  Yugoslavia suited them.  It suited the

24     Bosniaks, too, for that matter, but not because of Alija Izetbegovic's

25     book and not out of a fear that he could impose some sort of society

Page 12658

 1     which would -- especially not an Islamic society.  We all know that in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that could never be the case.  It could not be the

 3     case and should not be the case anywhere, let alone in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, where there are at least three ethnicities that have

 5     lived together for centuries.  Nobody could accept that; none of the

 6     Muslims.  The Bosniaks could not accept a society of that kind, because

 7     we've been living in a different environment for hundreds of years.  We

 8     have Orthodox, we have Catholics, we have Jews.  So there is no grounds

 9     and support for that kind of an idea, nor did the idea ever exist.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I believe you've heard of a prominent intellectual who

12     stood up in defending the freedom of thought of a certain man who thanked

13     him for that, and he addressed him in the following words.  He said,

14     "Sir, you are saying stupid things throughout, but I will fight to my

15     last breath for your right to say those things, those stupid things."

16             Now, I did not think that Alija Izetbegovic's "Islamic

17     Declaration" was not a serious text.  I always thought that it was.  But

18     I was an adversary of ideas contained in that Declaration.  Nevertheless,

19     I considered that Alija Izetbegovic had the right to present his views,

20     and that is why I defended him, as I would defend anybody else who is

21     taken to task for his beliefs.

22             Now, when his beliefs and his thinking is inaugurated through a

23     political movement, and when it becomes a concrete and specific political

24     goal, then you must understand that there are people who did not agree to

25     live with things like that.

Page 12659

 1             Yugoslavia was a safe house both for the Serbs and Muslims, even

 2     the rump Yugoslavia; isn't that right, Mr. Tihic?

 3        A.   No, that is not right, it is not the way you say it.  Nowhere in

 4     Izetbegovic's political activities were goals opposed that were contained

 5     in the "Islamic Declaration," either in the Party of Democratic Action or

 6     anywhere else, and President Izetbegovic, on the one hand, held the -- he

 7     had his books on one side and his political programme on the other.  What

 8     he wrote and what he thought about, especially when those thoughts are

 9     extracted and put out of context, they can take on a different meaning

10     than the meaning intended by Izetbegovic, although what Mr. Seselj

11     quoted, all those things can be interpreted in quite the opposite manner,

12     quite different to what Mr. Seselj is doing.  And when it came to the

13     survival of Yugoslavia, we Bosniaks -- well, it was in our interests for

14     Yugoslavia to be preserved and to live on, but the Serbs and the Croats

15     formed Yugoslavia and so they were the only ones who could safeguard and

16     preserve it.  The Bosniaks could not do that.  And we did everything in

17     our power to preserve Yugoslavia and Izetbegovic, together with Gligorov,

18     put forward the proposal for a staggered federation and confederation,

19     and we knew that we would be the ones to suffer most in the war, and we

20     did.

21        Q.   Mr. Izetbegovic -- Mr. Tihic.  I misspoke and said "Izetbegovic."

22     That was a slip of the tongue.  Mr. Tihic, your party, already in 1991,

23     started preparations for the war.  You set up the Patriotic League, the

24     Green Berets, and you as the president of the municipal branch of the

25     party in Bosanski Samac, also took certain steps, and you testify about

Page 12660

 1     that in this statement of yours.  On page 7, for example, you say that

 2     you organised professional seminars, you from the municipal boards, that

 3     you sent people to be trained in sabotage, and that's to be found on

 4     page 7 of your statement.

 5             And among those people from Sarajevo who came to train you, there

 6     was Sefer Halilovic.  You say that, too.  He was among them, and you say

 7     that on page 7.  Then you complain and go on to say that there was great

 8     pressure for you to start arming yourselves, and you mentioned names of

 9     people, Muslims who insisted upon that most, like Hakija Banacic [phoen],

10     Mitar [indiscernible], Kemal Bobic, and so on, and you say they did

11     nothing specific, but asked that somebody else to that.

12             "We didn't have the money and funds to arm ourselves and all the

13     activities to raise funds fell through because the people of Samac did

14     not want to give money, make donations, and so on two occasions we

15     managed to collect about 3.000 German marks, which was not enough, and at

16     the same time we set up the Crisis Staff in the party, and the Command,

17     and compiled all the documents, such as a war plan," et cetera, and

18     similar things.

19             So you had a war plan, too, didn't you, Mr. Tihic?  That's what

20     you say, you say you had one .

21        A.   Well, what Mr. Seselj read out is something that I put into my

22     statement and testimony already, because I said that the JNA handed out

23     weapons to the Serbs and that the Croats were busy arming themselves, and

24     that these arms were coming in from Croatia and --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

Page 12661

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It might be a matter of translation, but it is

 2     said in the version I have, in the English version, it is not a war plan,

 3     it said "a military plan."  That for me makes a difference, but it might

 4     be by reason of translation.  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says "ratne" plan, war plan.

 6     The interpreters can check that out for you, "ratne."

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic will confirm this

 8     straight away.

 9             In your statement, you mentioned a war plan or a military plan?

10     This could be two different things, and one might be the same as the

11     other, but it might not.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what it says.  In

13     actual fact, it was a plan of defence, a protection, protection for the

14     people.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Bosniaks in Samac made up

17     7 per cent of the population, you see, so they could not defend

18     themselves.  There were 42 per cent Serbs and 44 per cent Croats, and the

19     Serbs were armed to the teeth, as they say, by the JNA.  The Croats were

20     armed in their own way.  So all we could do was draw up documents and

21     make plans to try and protect ourselves.  Whether it was called a defence

22     plan or a war plan, I really don't know, but the substance is the

23     essential point.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, it was mostly the Muslims

25     who were prevalent in town, not in the municipality.  There was not a

Page 12662

 1     single Muslim village, but in town the Muslims were in the majority.

 2             May Mr. Tihic be shown his statement, and on page 7 it says

 3     "ratne plan."  I'm sure he can't remember.  I believe him, but when he

 4     sees that, then he will see that it was indeed that he did say "ratne

 5     plan," "war plan," if you don't believe me.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter what it was

 8     called, whether a war plan, a military plan, or a defence plan.  The

 9     important thing is what we wanted with that plan.  And by devising that

10     plan, we made a list of activities about how best to defend ourselves if

11     there was a war conflict, but we had no offensive actions contained in

12     that plan.  We didn't say we would attack anybody, or occupy anybody, or

13     take control of anything, or destroy anything.  We were just faced with a

14     situation and an environment in which we had to do something.  And the

15     plan that we devised could not help us, because we weren't armed, there

16     were much fewer of us, and we weren't armed as much as others.

17             MR. SESELJ:  [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Why did you need 200 kilograms of dynamite?  You could have blown

19     up the whole of Samac with that.  It says here that you procured 200

20     kilos of dynamite.  Why did you need that then, Mr. Tihic?

21        A.   I said in my statement that some people from Croatia had brought

22     in that dynamite, and the dynamite remained there.

23        Q.   Because the army stepped in on time?

24        A.   It wasn't used, nor did anybody have the intention of using it.

25     They brought it in from somewhere in Croatia, and it was stored there, it

Page 12663

 1     was there, and when the army came, it took it away.

 2        Q.   So they were a step ahead of you; is that right?  Now, you say

 3     here you appointed Alija Fitozovic as commander, and then you go on to

 4     say that because he was prone towards alcohol, he didn't rank highly in

 5     his environment, but his image didn't rank too low, either.  He was said

 6     to be sympathetic with the Croats, which wasn't bad at the time, but at

 7     any case "in view of my influence in the party and among the people, I

 8     could replace him at any time and revoke his decision, and that is why I

 9     was not afraid of his extremism."  Is that right?

10        A.   When we compiled the plan for preparations, the plan to prepare

11     our defence and protect the population with it, at that time I talked to

12     some Bosniaks who had officer ranks, ranks of reserve officers, and I

13     asked them whether they would accept to help out.  They weren't keen to

14     do so.  They weren't keen to be included in any of this.  There was fear,

15     generally, for security reasons and so on and so forth.  But Fitozovic

16     did accept, and he was one of the reserve officers.  And Albania

17     Fitozovic didn't do anything bad.  Let me make that clear.

18        Q.   I didn't say he did.  Anyway, on page 9, you go on to say the

19     following:

20             "In keeping with an invitation from Alija Izetbegovic, the

21     Muslims," and you're speaking about the Muslims of Samac, "except for a

22     number of local traitors, did not respond to doing any military service

23     or any service in the reserve force."

24             Right?

25        A.   There was a call-up, an invitation for that.  If you'll allow me

Page 12664

 1     to finish my answer.  President Izetbegovic did tell us not to respond to

 2     the call-up and do any military service in the Yugoslav People's Army,

 3     because the army was already at war in Slovenia and Croatia.  And so the

 4     Muslims of Samac mostly respected that.

 5        Q.   And those who responded to the call-up, you called traitors; you

 6     say that yourself?

 7        A.   Well, that's what people called them.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj has moved on to

 9     another topic.  I would like to get back to Fitozovic, who in your

10     statement is mentioned as a captain in the JNA.  You mentioned that he

11     was a reserve captain, and it is easy to understand why you had appointed

12     him, because he was an officer.  That's the first point.

13             The second point, as far as I can see in your statement, is that

14     under Fitozovic's bed was discovered -- explosives were discovered that

15     had been hidden under the bed, but we can also see, and this you added,

16     that he had gone to fetch them from the Croats.

17             Was there an agreement between the Muslims and the Croats, an

18     understanding between the two, some providing the arms and the explosives

19     to the others?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had there not been any agreement --

21     well, I did not take part in the drawing up of any agreement.  There are

22     individual cases, and one of those cases, one of those examples, was that

23     Fitozovic went to Slavonski Brod, for instance, and received that from

24     the Croats.  But the explosive was never used.  It was just found there

25     in his home.  I don't know where he kept it.

Page 12665

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but he gets the explosives

 2     from the Croats.  In other words, does he buy them, does he pay for them

 3     on the black market?  He buys these explosives from Croats who sell them

 4     to him or does he go to see them between, inverted commas, "a cooperation

 5     agreement"?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he received it free of charge.

 7     It was there in Slavonski Brod without any agreement.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is this something that is

 9     commonly done in the Balkans, to give people weapons free of charge?

10     Well, what was the Croat interest in providing that?  For the war in

11     Bosnia to flare up, that was in the Croat interest.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably it was an attempt to

13     help the Bosniaks in arming themselves in their defence, that kind of

14     thing, because at that time there was -- the JNA posed the danger.  It

15     was the JNA who were a danger to both the Bosniaks and the Croats, and

16     that's why they supplied that.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Mr. Seselj.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   On page 11, you say that your opinion was that the Croats were

21     always greater friends to you than the Serbs, which was shown through

22     history and subsequent events; right?  Now, please do explain to me, when

23     were the Croats better friends to you Muslims, without going into this

24     latest war?

25        A.   You know, I meant the crimes that, through history, the Serbs

Page 12666

 1     committed against the Muslims in the Second World War.

 2        Q.   Where?

 3        A.   You know, in Eastern Bosnia, you know what the Chetniks of

 4     Draza Mihajlovic did.

 5        Q.   I know of only one case of a mass crime against the Muslims in

 6     Foca, and I'm not aware of any other one, and you are not, either.

 7        A.   I am.  Do you want me to tell you about the crimes in Gorazde in

 8     1942 [Realtime transcript read in error "1992"], you know, when they

 9     brought Muslims to the bridge and when they slaughtered several thousand

10     Muslims?  And, you know, the partisan detachment from Montenegro

11     prevented that.  They did not allow the Muslims to be slaughtered.

12        Q.   There was only one crime against the Muslims in Foca committed by

13     the Chetnik vojvoda Pavle Djurisic from Montenegro.  In the Second World

14     War, most of the Muslims were among the Croatian Ustashas and the

15     Domobrans.  A lot of Croats were in Hitler's SS Handzar division.  There

16     were some Muslims in the so-called village militias, but they were just

17     guarding their villages.  There were Muslims in the partisans, a

18     considerable number, and also there were about 10.000 Muslims who were

19     Chetniks.  So in the Second World War, Muslims, after all, were not all

20     in favour of one single option.  They divided into different options.

21             However, when we go back to your statement --

22        A.   Can I just respond to what you said just now?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would just like to correct

25     something on the record.  I think you mentioned, Mr. Tihic, the crimes

Page 12667

 1     committed in 1942, and the record says "1992."  I think you wanted to

 2     respond, Mr. Tihic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, there were many crimes

 4     that were committed by the Chetniks against Muslims in Eastern Bosnia and

 5     elsewhere in Bosnia.  Perhaps this is not the right time for me to go

 6     into all of that, but Muslims, intellectuals and others, signed an

 7     important petition in the Second World War in 1941, in which they

 8     condemned the Ustasha movement, and they asked that the Serbs be

 9     protected from the crimes that were being committed against them in the

10     Second World War by the Ustasha authorities at the time.

11             So it's not the way Mr. Seselj is putting it, that Muslims were

12     only in favour of the Croatian side.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Were there Chetniks who were Muslims?

15        A.   Most of the Muslims joined the partisans.  Some did join the

16     Chetniks, some did join the Ustashas, but most of them were in the ranks

17     of the partisans.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's be more specific here.  On page 12 of your

19     statement, you said you went to negotiate with Lieutenant-Colonel

20     Nikolic.  He was commander of the 17th Tactical Group, right, and you ask

21     that the JNA be removed from the location of Uzarija, and you say:

22             "We mentioned as our reason the reaction of the Croatian side,

23     namely, that they could shut off the bridge, and for Bosnia that is the

24     only access or road to Europe.  Actually, the real reason was the fact

25     that we knew that arms for Bosnia were being transported across the

Page 12668

 1     bridge, so if there were to be a check-point next to Uzarija, imports of

 2     arms would be prevented."

 3             You say that yourself.  You were bothered by the JNA unit near

 4     Uzarija because it hindered the import of arms from Croatia into Bosnia;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Well, you see, in Bosnia and Herzegovina the JNA quite legally

 7     armed the Serbs.  All the Serbs were being armed, and they used all their

 8     capacities to serve the purposes of the idea of a Greater Serbia.  The

 9     Muslims were trying to protect themselves so that they would not all get

10     killed, and this weaponry arrived through -- from Croatia through

11     Bosanski Samac, too.  I'm not concealing that.  I was not involved in

12     that, but it was a thing that people knew, that this happened across this

13     bridge.

14        Q.   You Muslims would have been armed, too, if you had responded to

15     mobilisation call-ups; right?  Serbs received call-up papers, and then

16     they had weapons distributed to them.  Had you responded to the call-up,

17     you would have also been issued with personal weapons; right?

18        A.   No, that's not right.  Just a minute, please, let's wait for the

19     interpretation.

20             No, they got weapons even without mobilisation call-ups on the

21     basis of ethnic grounds only.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tell me, please, how much time do I

23     have left?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it's time for our

25     break.  It's already 10.00.  We've been sitting for an hour and a half

Page 12669

 1     already.

 2             We'll have now a 20-minute break.

 3             Let me tell you that according to the Registrar, you have ten

 4     minutes left, Mr. Seselj, so please try to focus on -- please try to

 5     focus your questions, because you only have ten minutes left.  We meet

 6     again in ten minutes [as interpreted].

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  If I remember

 8     correctly, the Prosecutor spent a bit more time than was envisaged, a bit

 9     more than two hours.  I would need an additional ten minutes, in addition

10     to these ten minutes, if possible, and if you also establish that the

11     Prosecutor also overstepped his time limit.  I have some other important

12     questions to put to Mr. Tihic.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You'll have 20

14     minutes after our 20-minute break.  We'll break for 20 minutes.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction earlier, it was a

16     20-minute break, not ten minutes.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session

20     after this break, and I give the floor to Mr. Seselj.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now, in this statement of yours, you say how you were conducting

23     these campaigns to collect funds from 200 private entrepreneurs from

24     Samac to pay for the SDA and the reserve police during the guards and

25     also to have bread for dinners and so on.  Your detachment already

Page 12670

 1     started patrolling Samac, didn't it, Mr. Tihic?

 2        A.   Should I answer?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   This statement of mine shows that we had collected a total of

 5     3.000 marks, which was insufficient.  Arms could not be bought from that

 6     money.  We used that here for fuel, per diems, bread for the reserve

 7     policemen.  We also provided some compensation, because Serbs and Croats,

 8     as reserve policemen, did not respond to call-ups from the reserve public

 9     security station, and very often there was no security on the bridge

10     across the Sava River.  So for the most part, this was done by reservists

11     of Bosniak ethnicity.  We only had guards at the entry points into Samac.

12     There was no patrols.  These check-points were there at night in the fear

13     that someone would enter Samac during the night and commit crimes.

14        Q.   However, in your statement, you say the second group consisted of

15     Rahid Pavic [phoen], Ibrahim Salkic, Dedo Halilovic, Aziz Hecimovic,

16     Osman Mesic, Pasaga Tihic, Esad Hadzimujagic, Fuad Jasenica and others.

17     Nevertheless, most of the concrete work was done by Izet and Alija.

18     That's Izetbegovic, right, who went to Slavonski Brod, to Metaric [phoen]

19     and Piplovic, and this is in Croatia, I add.  And once they brought 100

20     kilograms of explosive from there, and another time 10.000 bullets, 20

21     grenades, some anti-tank shells.  Izet also, on one occasion, agreed upon

22     and received from the party 30 automatic rifles and 5 pistols.

23             During Ramazan, Senahid Memic once came before the mosque, a man

24     from the party, because along the road to Samac his truck broke down.

25     "Then I organised the goods to be loaded onto a different truck."  Then

Page 12671

 1     there was the veterinary station -- that belonged the veterinary station:

 2             "Smajlovic transported the weapons to the destination, and for

 3     that service we got 20 automatic weapons and 2.000 bullets.  In that way,

 4     we already had 50 automatic weapons.  With these weapons, we equipped a

 5     platoon that patrolled town with hidden weapons primarily in vehicles.

 6     Depending on the situation, we had several patrols and then we covered

 7     all entrances into Bosanski Samac."

 8             Is that right, Mr. Tihic?

 9        A.   Let me provide you with an answer.  All the weapons that we had,

10     all the weapons that we ensured, you just referred to them now, these

11     were some automatic rifles, Klashnikovs.  In relation to -- or, rather,

12     in comparison to weapons of others, it was negligible.  These weapons

13     were in vehicles, it was not publicly displayed, and during the night we

14     covered the entry points into Bosanski Samac.  These guards of ours were

15     trying to prevent bad things from happening at night, because different

16     people would come to Bosanski Samac and different rumours were going

17     around.  And we did all of this in agreement with the police, the chief

18     of police, who could not ensure a sufficient number of policemen in

19     Bosanski Samac for protection.

20        Q.   What was his name?

21        A.   Vinko Dragicevic.

22        Q.   A Croat; right?

23        A.   Yes, Vinko Dragicevic is a Croat.  He was the chief of the Public

24     Security Station in Bosanski Samac.

25        Q.   All right.  On one occasion, a patrol of the JNA entered

Page 12672

 1     Bosanski Samac and disarmed your patrol, and you erected barricades

 2     straight away.  Alija Fitozovic organised this, and you say here in your

 3     statement that this happened without your knowledge?

 4        A.   After the JNA patrol came in and did what is written here, that

 5     is to say, when they seized the weapons from one of our patrols, Alija

 6     Fitozovic -- well, this caused the citizens to feel upset, and Alija

 7     Fitozovic organised barricades, although I was clearly against that, and

 8     I stated that clearly and said that that was not a good thing.  I said

 9     that was not our method of struggle, that these barricades could only

10     lead to problems.  And there had already been barricades in Serb and

11     Croat villages.  I thought that this was not a good thing.  And the very

12     next day, we removed that, and the president of the SDS and the HDZ

13     called upon all the citizens to do that and to remove all these

14     barricades from Serb villages, Croat villages --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

16     answer.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Before that, you fired at the patrol of the JNA that went to

19     Bosanski Samac.  Osman Mesic fired at it.  He did not hit anyone.  You

20     say that he fired into the air, but in the direction of that patrol.  And

21     then that patrol went away, and you were afraid that the JNA would come

22     back with stronger forces, and you removed the barricades immediately,

23     and you were also afraid that the 4th Detachment would be activated.  Is

24     that right?

25        A.   Let me answer.

Page 12673

 1        Q.   Please go ahead.

 2        A.   I was against barricades.

 3        Q.   That is what is stated here.

 4        A.   I was against barricades.  That is to say, I believe that this

 5     was not a smart thing to do, and I wanted to have these barricades

 6     removed the same morning.  That was not a good thing, and that was

 7     demonstrated by the fact that Osman Mesic fired into the air in the

 8     direction from where the military police was coming in, and that could

 9     lead to a conflict.  Also, there was the 4th Detachment there.  There

10     were armed Serbs who could fire at the backs of those who were in

11     barricades.

12             So this was a stupid and irresponsible move, and I did my best to

13     have these barricades removed as soon as possible; not because the JNA

14     would come -- well, perhaps on account of that, too, but primarily

15     because I thought that this was not a good thing, generally speaking.

16     It's not a good thing for a town, for any place, to have barricades there

17     and to have check-points of that kind.

18        Q.   You believed that nothing could be achieved through barricades?

19        A.   I thought that was wrong.

20        Q.   However, when you removed the barricades, then you joined in a

21     daily cooperation with the HDZ by way of preparations, and you say:

22             "Cooperation was reflected in agreements reached between

23     political representatives, daily contacts between our commander and their

24     commander, and at the first meeting in Prud."

25             They agreed with you that a joint Crisis Staff should be

Page 12674

 1     established; is that right?

 2        A.   No, no.  I have to answer this, because this is very important.

 3             I came to this meeting after it had started, and I saw that only

 4     the representatives of the Bosniaks and the Croats were there and that

 5     the intention was to establish a staff for the municipality of Samac

 6     consisting only of Croats and Bosniaks.  I then said that I was against

 7     that, that we could not have only two peoples establishing a staff, that

 8     the third people had to be made aware, too.  Then the staff was not

 9     established.  I personally was against that, and it was not established.

10        Q.   It says here you insisted that the two staffs continued existing

11     in parallel; that Alija Fitozovic remained the commander of your staff

12     and on that occasion the Croats gave you one PAP semi-automatic rifle

13     against anti-tank mines and grenades.

14        A.   I was against the establishment of a staff for Bosanski Samac

15     municipality consisting only of Bosniaks and Croats.  I wanted the Serbs

16     to be included.  I wanted it to be a real Territorial Defence.

17        Q.   All right.  After that meeting, you get another shipment of

18     weapons from Croatia, that's what we read in your statement, around 50

19     automatic rifles, 2 mortars, several Zolja, hand-held rocket-launchers,

20     right?  That's what Zoljas are?

21        A.   From Croatia, as I said, 50 automatic rifles were brought.

22        Q.   No.  These are a new 50, so in total you have 100 automatic

23     rifles now?

24        A.   Allow me to finish.  Those 50 rifles, I said, should be brought

25     to the Staff of the Territorial Defence, because it had been formed by

Page 12675

 1     that time.  Until then, there had been no TO Staff.  I was afraid that

 2     these automatic rifles would be distributed to civilians, that they would

 3     be used outside of any control, and I wanted them to be turned over to

 4     the TO Staff.  And that was done.  And then two days later, Samac was

 5     attacked and those weapons were found there.

 6        Q.   Your statement says something different.  It says:

 7             "Most of the weapons were immediately distributed in the TO

 8     Staff, mainly to Muslims, and several to Croats."

 9             Here it is on page 14 of your statement.  So these weapons did

10     not remain in the Staff.  You immediately distributed them at the Staff.

11        A.   The fact is --

12        Q.   I believe every word you said.

13        A.   We have to let the interpreters finish.

14             The fact is the weapons were turned over to the Territorial

15     Defence Staff.  Now, to what extent, within those two or three days

16     before the attack on Samac, those weapons were successfully distributed,

17     whether most of them were or not, I don't know.  All I know is that when

18     Samac was attacked, some of those weapons were found at the Territorial

19     Defence Staff, which was a legal institution, and it was legally

20     distributed.

21        Q.   How can that TO Staff be a legal institution when it was outside

22     any control by the JNA?  Only a territorial defence under strict control

23     of the JNA was legal, under the decision of the Presidency of the SFRY.

24        A.   No, that's not the way it was, that's not the way it was.  The TO

25     Staff was appointed by the Republic Staff of Territorial Defence.  It was

Page 12676

 1     completely legal.  And the Command of the TO Staff was under the

 2     Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they acted upon their orders.

 3        Q.   What happened in Samac, when you were captured, you called that

 4     war, and you say perhaps 15 to 20 days before the war, there was a clash

 5     between members of the 4th Detachment and members of the reserve police,

 6     and you state the names of those involved in the clash, and we see that

 7     there were Muslims on both sides, both in the 4th Detachment controlled

 8     the JNA, and the reserve police controlled by you, and you gave us the

 9     name of the Muslims in the reserve police; Mesad Mesic, Nizam

10     Ramusovic -- no, no, reserve police, Adis Izetbegovic, Sead Srna, and one

11     policeman from Hasici?

12        A.   A Croat.

13        Q.   Croat, all right.  And on the other side, Nizam Ramusovic, Mesad

14     Mesic and Daniluk [phoen], that one could be a Serb, right, in the 4th

15     Detachment.  So on both sides in that first skirmish, there were Muslims;

16     right?

17        A.   You see, those were members of the 4th Detachment -- we should

18     wait for the interpreters.  Members of the 4th Detachment were

19     provocative on that day.  They were shooting at a tavern where there were

20     members and followers of the SDA, and at the time as they were shooting,

21     a police patrol came by.  And not knowing who's shooting and what

22     happened, and thinking that they were the target, they started fire.

23        Q.   What's interesting, Mr. Tihic, is that only three members of the

24     4th Detachment were wounded, two Muslims and one Serb, and that none of

25     your reserve policemen were wounded.  And now you say they were the first

Page 12677

 1     to shoot.  Maybe they really did shoot first, but in the air.  But they

 2     got shot there.  All three of them were wounded.

 3        A.   I have to wait for the interpretation.

 4             The police patrol heard and saw shooting.  They didn't know

 5     whether they were the targets, whether they were going to be missed or

 6     shot, so they fired back.  But the fact is the people from the 4th

 7     Detachment started shooting first.  It is an unfortunate incident, but

 8     those from the 4th Detachment shot first, and the people who were coming

 9     in that direction could not know if that was shooting in the air, so they

10     fired back.  And so it happened that these people were wounded.

11        Q.   And you, when you were captured, Mr. Tihic, had an automatic

12     rifle and a pistol on you; right?  You hid the pistol, and the automatic

13     rifle was taken away from you?

14        A.   When I was captured, I was in the house of Mica Pavlovic, a

15     neighbour of mine, without any weapons.  But earlier on, I had been

16     issued with a pistol and an automatic rifle that were back there at my

17     house, and they were taken away when my house was searched.

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic, by all appearances the JNA arrested you quite legally.

19     You had weapons, you were an insurgent, and everything was legal except

20     the frequent beatings that you were subjected to after your arrest.  That

21     part I condemn, too, and I believe the people responsible for beating you

22     and the other prisoners should be held accountable.  Why they are not

23     held accountable is a question best addressed to the Prosecution, but the

24     intervention of the JNA was legal and your arrest was legal because you

25     were armed, you were members of armed units.  Whether you had the weapons

Page 12678

 1     on you or not is not particularly important here.

 2        A.   May I answer?

 3        Q.   Go ahead.

 4        A.   It was not a legal attack of the JNA against the town of

 5     Bosanski Samac.  It was not legal for the JNA to come to occupy the

 6     police station, to occupy the municipal building, to drive out all the

 7     officials who were non-Serbs, all the policemen who were non-Serbs.  And

 8     speaking of the JNA, it could have remained where it had been, in Serbian

 9     villages, but it was not supposed to change the government.  It was not

10     its job to change the government, all the more so because nobody was

11     attacking.

12        Q.   In your examination-in-chief, you described how JNA helicopters

13     arrived and brought some members of special units, that is, soldiers you

14     called specialised soldiers, and they were in fact soldiers who had gone

15     through specialised training and were to be the core of the 4th

16     Detachment; do you know that?

17             Do you know that among these soldiers who were brought by

18     helicopters of the JNA, there were also people from Bosanski Samac who

19     had been previously sent to training and then came back together with

20     soldiers from Serbia, including some volunteers?

21        A.   I told you all I know about these helicopters.  I told you that a

22     Serb person came to my office, told me that two helicopters had arrived,

23     brought these members of special units from Serbia who imposed the terror

24     on those villages, beat up some guards even.  Now, who was in those

25     helicopters, whether that included people from Bosanski Samac who had

Page 12679

 1     gone to some special training, I don't know.

 2        Q.   Well, I do know.  You don't have to believe me.  And then you go

 3     on to say:

 4             "I later learned that the Red Berets were part of the police

 5     force in Serbia."

 6             Now, only the fact that these soldiers were wearing red berets,

 7     although it was indubitable they were members of the JNA and had arrived

 8     by JNA helicopters, is enough for you to link them with the special unit

 9     of the MUP of Serbia established in 1996, whose members also had red

10     berets; is that correct?  What is the connection of the Serbian police

11     force with these people who came by helicopter and wore red berets?

12        A.   I told you.  They came by helicopter.  They were wearing military

13     uniform.  I was told that they were Red Berets.  I thought they were part

14     of the Serbian police force.  Now you're telling me they were not.

15        Q.   Do you know that some units of the JNA also wore red berets?

16        A.   I don't know, but they came as part of the JNA, as part of the

17     army.  Whether they were formally under the control of the JNA or the

18     police, that's something I don't know.

19        Q.   And then you mentioned Zvezdan Jovanovic, because you had

20     information that he worked for the police later, and you know very well

21     that it's possible that he had been in the JNA, then in Arkan's

22     Volunteers Guard, and then moved on to the police force.  When this

23     special unit was established in 1996, many former Arkan's men joined that

24     unit.  They also looked for some volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party,

25     but since we were in fierce conflict with the regime, we refused.  But

Page 12680

 1     Arkan's men joined that unit.

 2             And now you say Zvezdan Jovanovic was a notorious criminal, he

 3     killed and robbed, et cetera.  But nobody could say, in Serbia, about

 4     Zvezdan Jovanovic, that he was a robber.  Not even at the trial for the

 5     murder of Prime Minister Djindjic could anyone say that.

 6        A.   I'm saying that he robbed and that he was a criminal on the basis

 7     of what he did in Bosanski Samac.  One of my relatives filled in, on his

 8     orders, blank driving licenses that had previously been seized from

 9     Muslims.  My relative was a civilian.  He typed out illegal driving

10     licenses for Zvezdan Jovanovic, put stamps on them so that

11     Zvezdan Jovanovic could take out these cars to Serbia.

12        Q.   When was that?

13        A.   In 1992.

14        Q.   When?

15        A.   In April/May.

16        Q.   Before the withdrawal of the JNA from Samac?  That's absolutely

17     impossible.

18        A.   That's the same way they seized rifles, weapons.  They forged

19     licenses to carry weapons.  They took out all sorts of equipment from

20     trucks.  They looted machinery.  The local Serbs did not dare to protest,

21     because these were dangerous people.

22        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I am absolutely certain that there was no major

23     looting.  There may have been petty theft and pilfering, but nothing

24     looted left Bosnia-Herzegovina before the JNA left.  The looting began

25     after the JNA left, but you were not in Samac then.  You are telling us

Page 12681

 1     about hearsay.  Whether that man was really Zvezdan Jovanovic or not,

 2     that's in great doubt.  I have no reason to defend him, because I have

 3     never seen him in my life, but all of Serbia knows that he was not a

 4     criminal, that he was not a robber.  He was a very professional soldier.

 5     Whether he killed Djindjic or not, I personally do not believe it.  The

 6     trial took place in very suspicious circumstances.  One day, the truth

 7     will come out.  Certain things were fabricated, and before the trial, the

 8     police executed two key witnesses, this man Siptar and the other Lukovic.

 9     Those are facts, Mr. Tihic.

10        A.   May I answer?

11        Q.   Go ahead.

12        A.   The fact is that these two units, these specials, were also

13     robbers and looters.  They looted the private property of citizens.  They

14     looted the socially-owned property of enterprises.  And Zvezdan Jovanovic

15     was one of them.  I know that.

16        Q.   From hearsay?

17        A.   From talking to Bosniaks, from talking to Serbs.  Later on, of

18     course, when all this was in the past and when we talked, and even Serbs

19     told me how they had tried to stand up to it, but they did not dare to

20     because these were dangerous people, as I said.

21        Q.   This is all hearsay.  You know that, but never mind.  Do you know

22     that after the withdrawal of the JNA, this 4th Detachment that belonged

23     to the 17th Tactical Group, grew into the Semberija Brigade of the army

24     of Republika Srpska?  Are you aware of that?

25        A.   [No verbal response].

Page 12682

 1        Q.   We have an occasion to talk while the Judges are busy, because my

 2     time is running out.

 3        A.   I want the Judges to hear what I'm saying.

 4        Q.   They'll read it later.

 5        A.   Mr. Seselj, you told me --

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One minute, Mr. Seselj.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we were computing

 8     the time with the Registrar.  You have almost used up all of your time.

 9     You have one last question, and then we will put an end to the

10     cross-examination.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have, I have asked my

12     question, and now I'm waiting for the answer of Mr. Tihic, who didn't

13     want to answer until he was sure you were listening.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You told me that all I know about

15     looting is hearsay.  I know about it firsthand.  They robbed me,

16     personally, these specials.  They took me to my home and they made me

17     turn over valuables to them.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Who?  You mentioned Lugar?

20        A.   Lugar was there, too.

21        Q.   And in the statement you gave to the investigators of the OTP,

22     you said Lugar was a blonde, fair-haired man?

23        A.   We did not dare look at these people in the face.  As soon as

24     they showed up, you had to look down, and you were not allowed to look at

25     them carefully.  When they showed me the picture, I recognised him, but I

Page 12683

 1     said, "I'm not quite sure."  But I did identify him.  He was stalkier

 2     then, and especially since he was wearing a uniform.

 3             But let me answer the question about the 4th Detachment which you

 4     say grew into a Brigade of the VRS.  I did hear the same thing, that this

 5     4th Detachment later grew into a Brigade.

 6        Q.   The Posavina Brigade.  And as for this Lugar man, your statement

 7     says he was blonde.  And I met him quite by chance once in my life, and I

 8     know that he had jet black hair.  He hasn't been alive for a long time

 9     now and it doesn't matter, but he had black hair.

10        A.   Lugar was the worst criminal there.  He beat me up very badly.  I

11     don't know about his hair.  I was very frightened of him, but --

12        Q.   You know what I meant to say.  Human memory is not quite

13     reliable, Mr. Tihic, especially after such a long time.  I believe that

14     somebody beat you up badly.  You would not have made that story up, not

15     at this length.  I believe that you were beaten.  But after a certain

16     time, people are inclined, in their thinking, to ascribe their suffering

17     to some people about whom they learn only later.

18             Now, it's difficult to identify, name by name, all the people who

19     beat you, but do you agree that you blame most the man who was the chief

20     of the Security Service, and he is the one who should identify

21     perpetrators?

22        A.   Lugar beat me up several times, personally.

23        Q.   Never mind.  He's not the subject of our conversation.

24             My final question, and this is my final question:  Do you agree

25     that for all the beatings that you suffered from the first time you were

Page 12684

 1     captured until you were exchanged, that the main culprit and the main

 2     person responsible was the chief of the Security Service?

 3        A.   There are a number of culprits.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] But it's up to him to find who the

 5     perpetrators were and who the culprits were, but you and I both know who

 6     that is.

 7             Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Tihic, I have a follow-up

 9     question I would like some details.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your municipality, the TO

12     was set up.  You explained this.  This TO is made up of Muslims.  There

13     were weapons, 50 pistols and more rifles and so on.  Fine.  We see

14     exactly what happened.  We know that the captain in charge had set up

15     some barricades.  You were against that.  Fine.

16             But now I would like to put a question to the legal expert, to

17     the lawyer.  Obviously, all this was happening in April 1992.  As far as

18     you know, did the Republic of Bosnia -- as far as you know, could you

19     tell us when the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina declared its

20     independence?

21        A.   Bosnia and Herzegovina organised a referendum on the 29th of

22     February and the 1st of March, 1992, that is, and the European Union

23     recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 6th of April, 1992, and then later

24     on it was recognised by all the other countries.  And on the 20th of May,

25     it became a member of the United Nations.

Page 12685

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And on the 19th of May, the JNA

 2     withdrew, and until the JNA withdrew, Mr. President, it could not have

 3     become a member of the United Nations.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You just mentioned

 5     dates, dates that are extremely important, of course.

 6             On April 6th, 1992, the European Union recognised

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Therefore, if I understand correctly, the TO started

 8     operating after April 6th, 1992, after the European Union had recognised

 9     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a sovereign and independent state;

10     is that it?

11        A.   The Territorial Defence existed before, within the framework of

12     the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, with the proviso that the

13     JNA for a year beforehand had disarmed the Territorial Defence and taken

14     the weapons away.  Now, in that Territorial Defence, the army of the

15     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established later on, from the 6th of

16     April onwards.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj took the floor and

18     said that the JNA withdrew on May 19th.  I believe that you must agree

19     with him on this date of May 19th.  However, as a lawyer, don't you think

20     that the JNA should have withdrawn as early as April 6th, 1992?

21        A.   Well, it should have withdrawn already on the 1st of March, when

22     the referendum on independence was held and when Bosnia-Herzegovina, to

23     all intents and purposes, became independent in official terms.  But the

24     JNA did not even withdraw on the 19th of April, when it officially should

25     have done so, but they stayed on for a long time after that.

Page 12686

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You are saying that

 2     it should have withdrawn in March already?

 3        A.   Well, looking at it from a formal standpoint, the results of the

 4     referendum were proclaimed, the citizens declared themselves in favour of

 5     independence, so the JNA had nothing to look for there anymore.  It was a

 6     foreign army from that moment on.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm sure we will

 8     have occasion to return to this issue at a latter stage.

 9             Mr. Mussemeyer, do you have any redirect?

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  There's no need to redirect.  But as for the

11     personal notes of the witness has been quoted extensively, I think it

12     should be moved into evidence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, from what I

14     understood, the witness wrote a book.  I believe you quoted the exhibit

15     number on the 65 ter list.  If I remember correctly, that should be 2004.

16     Is that the right number, 2004?  2094?

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Exactly.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I shall turn to my

19     colleagues.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 2094, Mr. Mussemeyer, that is

22     the book which you wish to tender; is that right?

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The title is "Personal Notes of the Witness

24     Sulejman Tihic."  I will see what it says on the first page.  It starts

25     with "Memoirs," but I cannot see more, Your Honour.

Page 12687

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like Mr. Tihic's

 2     statement to be tendered into evidence, the one we have before us, which

 3     was taken on - I'm just checking the date --

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  You wish this to be

 6     tendered also into evidence.  In other words, you want two documents to

 7     be tendered into evidence.

 8             Registrar, can we have -- Mr. Seselj.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, it is absolutely

10     impermissible for the statement to be admitted into evidence that the

11     witness gave to the OTP.  He testified viva voce, and all those

12     statements given previously to the OTP go directly into the waste paper

13     basket, whereas this is a document that was compiled far before the

14     testimony itself, and this is, for example, a document that could be

15     taken in under 89 ter.  This is a typical document that could be

16     subjected to that Rule, and not the statement given to the OTP and is

17     written by the OTP.  This is written personally by the witness,

18     Mr. President, and the statement he gave to the OTP was written by either

19     the Prosecutor or the investigator, based on the proofing session or

20     interview.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It cannot be admitted into

23     evidence.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The reason why we took this statement was the

25     order of the Trial Chamber of the 7th of January, 2008, where it was said

Page 12688

 1     that we could come back with a 92 ter statement from the witness which is

 2     consolidated.  We consolidated this statement, and after each paragraph

 3     it is said where we quoted from.  It has been translated into the

 4     witness's language, and the witness read, made corrections, and then

 5     signed it.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it is important for

 7     you to remember that initially the Prosecutor wanted to hear this witness

 8     as a 92 ter witness, and the Trial Chamber at the time had asked the

 9     Prosecutor to provide it with a consolidated statement.  And it is you,

10     you yourself, who intervened and who said that you wanted Mr. Tihic to

11     come and testify viva voce, in light of the role he had played and the

12     position of this gentleman.

13             The Trial Chamber had said that we would deliberate on the

14     matter, which we did, and the Trial Chamber agreed to what you had asked

15     for and decided that this witness would come and testify as a viva voce

16     witness.

17             So this is how things stand.  We understand now that you are

18     telling us that what counts, when a viva voce comes to testify, is the

19     transcript and not the statement.

20             I shall turn to my colleagues to see what needs to be done.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to tell you this:  Any

22     possible admittance of this statement into evidence would be a trick,

23     because I was told that the witness would be testifying viva voce.  I was

24     preparing for that.  He's testifying viva voce, and I cross-examined him.

25     And now if, by some unfortunate circumstance, you were to admit his

Page 12689

 1     former statement under 92 ter, then that would be a unique example of a

 2     witness who testified viva voce and under 92 ter, and then I would

 3     consider myself to have been duped and tricked.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall turn to my colleagues

 5     now.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber, after having

 8     deliberated, as you could see, decides:  (A), that the personal notes

 9     entitled "Memoirs" or so-called memoirs, are admitted.  The Registrar

10     will give us a number for this.

11             However, as far as the 92 ter statement is concerned, the Trial

12     Chamber does not grant the Prosecutor's request.

13             Could we have an exhibit number, therefore, Registrar, for

14     Mr. Tihic's notes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

16     Exhibit number P681.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

18             Mr. Tihic, your testimony has come to an end.  Personally and on

19     behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you for having come to

20     testify, for having taken the time to come and testify in this case, and

21     I would like to thank you for the answers you provided to the questions

22     put to you by the Prosecution, by Mr. Seselj and by the Bench.  We wish

23     you a safe journey home, and we wish you all the best in your future

24     endeavours.

25             I shall ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom, but my

Page 12690

 1     colleague has something to add.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             I just wanted to add to what the Presiding Judge has just said,

 4     the expression of our deep compassion for the pain and the suffering that

 5     you have endured.  It seems that you have suffered more than most, and

 6     the Chamber recognises the courage and the efforts you have taken to come

 7     here and testify again about this.  And we wish you, as we wish all

 8     witnesses who have been exposed to suffering during the war, our best

 9     hopes for the life in the future for all of you.

10             Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we move into closed

13     session, I have something to say.  Mr. Mundis will then have the floor.

14             Mr. Seselj, yesterday I stepped in at one stage because when you

15     spoke, you talked about demanding something, and I had said that this

16     might be a question of semantics, due to the translation of what you had

17     said.  You then stepped in and said that in your country, this could

18     arise, you could step in and intervene during the proceedings and say

19     that you demanded something.

20             After having looked into the matter, it seems that you were

21     partly right.  Lawyers in Serbia use this particular term.

22             I wanted this to be on the record.  I wasn't challenging anything

23     when I said this yesterday, but in civil law countries I believe things

24     are very similar to the way they happen in your country.  The accused

25     make requests, and one responds to these requests.  In exceptional

Page 12691

 1     circumstances, demands are made when an accused, for instance, wishes to

 2     have a lawyer.  That is a demand, per se, and the Bench needs to respond

 3     to that.

 4             This is what I had to say to you to make sure there is no

 5     ambiguity whatsoever.  I am concerned about the fact that these

 6     proceedings should unfold in the best possible conditions, as smoothly as

 7     possible, and that the witnesses are able to respond as they should.

 8     This is our objective, an objective we share with all the people

 9     concerned.

10             This is what I had to say about this matter.

11             I would like to move into closed session now, because I would

12     like to know what our schedule is.

13             Mr. Mundis, was that why you were on your feet?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something to say briefly in

15     open session, before you move into private session.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please do.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday I received

18     a request from the Prosecution that a written statement of VS-1033, under

19     92 ter, be admitted, and it was on the 19th of November, that is, the

20     date of the request, and it was handed to me yesterday.  And I

21     categorically oppose it, because I consider there is no reason why this

22     witness should be heard under 92 ter and that he should come in here and

23     be heard viva voce.

24             Now, referring to all the arguments that I have put forth umpteen

25     times as to why I do not accept anything under 92 ter, I don't want to

Page 12692

 1     repeat myself and take up more time, but those arguments stand.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As has occurred previously, we

 3     shall look into the matter.  Sometimes we stand by what we say.

 4     Sometimes we agree to what you are saying.  We shall let you know very

 5     quickly, and we shall hand down a decision on this matter.

 6             Mr. Mundis, let's move into closed session or not?

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12693











11 Pages 12693-12701 redacted. Private session.















Page 12702

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did I hear this right?  In the

 5     morning next week, in the morning?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely, we're sitting in

 7     the morning, Tuesday morning at 8.30.  We'll tell you as soon as

 8     possible, maybe this afternoon, as early as this afternoon, about the

 9     time allocation.  But I believe from what the Prosecutor said, that these

10     will be witnesses that will not take up a lot of time.

11             Yes, you have the floor.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've just remembered,

13     Mr. President, what it was that I thought was important.  May I say it

14     now?

15             In advance, I'm absolutely opposed to having the Prosecution time

16     extended for their case, because I have proof that the Prosecution has

17     not used their time so far rationally.

18             For example, these last two witnesses, from the point of view of

19     the indictment and from the point of view of what it is that they are

20     trying to prove, these last two witnesses were brought here for no reason

21     whatsoever.  You see that both have nothing to do with the indictment

22     issued against me.  Mr. Tihic did not contribute at all to providing

23     evidence of a pattern of behaviour in Bosanski Samac.  He just told us

24     the story of his fate or destiny, and that's it.  As for

25     Mr. Fadil Banjanovic, he also spoke about the crime base, and it is two

Page 12703

 1     months removed from the period when volunteers of the Serb Radical Party

 2     were in the territory of Zvornik, and he never saw them in Kozluk.  So

 3     two witnesses that were brought here totally unnecessarily.  They were

 4     useful for me, but not for the Prosecution.  This is a strong argument,

 5     from my point of view, that no additional time should be given to the

 6     Prosecution for presenting their case.

 7             I could give you a series of examples in relation to previous

 8     witnesses that were also used, and there was no point in doing that, from

 9     the point of view of the indictment, that is.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From what I understood, the

11     Prosecutor told us it was just a working assumption, he's thinking about

12     it, but if he is asking for additional time, he will submit a motion.

13     This motion must be grounded with motivations and so on, and I'm sure you

14     will be allowed to reply also.  But right now, this is just a working

15     assumption, that they might need an extension.  Nothing has been set as

16     of now, and the Trial Chamber hasn't been seized of any motion as of now.

17     This is where we stand.

18             So I would like to thank you all, and we will resume on Tuesday

19     morning, 8.30 a.m. thank you.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.40 a.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

22                           December, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.