1 Wednesday, 10 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.31 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Vojislav Seselj.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 Today is Wednesday, 10th of December, 2008. Good morning to
16 Mr. Registrar, can we move to private session for a few minutes.
17 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us wait until the blinds
6 are up.
7 Sir, please state your first name, last name, and date of birth.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovan Glamocanin, born on the 16th
9 of June, 1940, in Subotica
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a retiree, but I have a degree
13 in law.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you had an opportunity to
15 testify before a domestic or international court of law as to the events
16 in the former Yugoslavia
17 going to testify?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I'm
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn
21 declaration handed to you by the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: JOVAN GLAMOCANIN
25 [The witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please be
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we start asking
5 questions of you and providing you with information, I believe Mr. Seselj
6 had a request.
7 Did you have anything to say, Mr. Seselj?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 So let me explain to you several things.
11 You have been called to testify by the Trial Chamber, therefore
12 at the request of the Judges of the Bench in front of you. I recall or
13 remind you of some facts, and I know you're a lawyer; and I'm sure,
14 therefore, that you will understand straight away what I'm about to say.
15 It is true that you had not requested any protective measures
16 back then, but on the 15th of February, 2005, the OTP had made an
17 application to another Trial Chamber than this one for protective
18 measures, and in the filings made by the OTP, it was alleged that you had
19 some fear for pressure or harassment. That's the reason why protective
20 measures had been granted to you. A pseudonym had also been given,
21 "VS-044." Later on, you told the OTP that you didn't need any protective
22 measures. The OTP had taken you out of their 65 ter witness list in 2007
23 because, from the point of view of the procedure, the indictment against
24 Mr. Seselj had been reduced, and therefore there were witnesses that were
25 no longer needed. That's the reason why you were struck off their list.
1 Later on, the OTP made another application for your name to be
2 added to the witness list, and on the 17th of June, 2008, the Trial
3 Chamber had granted the application.
4 Why were protective measures applied for? We'll get to that
5 later on, but it's also because in your statement you had said that at
6 some point in time, people close to the Serb Radical Party allegedly
7 tried to kidnap your wife or your daughter - we're not quite sure about
8 that - and that you had hired bodyguards, and that was the setting in
9 which the protective measures had been granted. And then a series of
10 events took place. You had some fear. You feared being assassinated,
11 and you no longer wished to testify.
12 There was quite some spectacular event that took place; namely,
13 that publicly you stated that you were going to be a Defence witness,
14 that is, a witness for Mr. Seselj; and together with Mr. Vujic, on the
15 20th of November, 2007, you took part in a press conference during which
16 you publicly stated that you were going to be a Defence witness. You
17 even granted an interview after that to 'Pravda,' and you blamed the
18 Prosecution or accused the Prosecution, but I'm not going to go into
20 So the Judges were faced with an unheard-of problem so far in the
21 history of the Tribunal, namely, that a Prosecution witness was then
22 saying that he was going to be a Defence witness, and we had to sort it
23 out. We were of the view that we were able to find a solution by calling
24 you as a witness, by issuing a summons for you to come and testify. You
25 were then called by a judge in Belgrade
1 On the 4th of November, 2008, you sent me a mail in which you
2 explained that you were a Defence witness, inasmuch as you felt that the
3 statement you had made over four days in 2003 was not Prosecution
4 evidence against Mr. Seselj, in your view, and that you wanted to be a
5 Defence witness, as you were of the view that Mr. Seselj was innocent,
6 not guilty of the charges against him. This being so, we maintained the
7 summons. This is the reason why you appear here today, and just as well,
8 because if you had failed to appear, we would have been forced to indict
9 you for contempt of court, and this would have sent you straight away to
10 jail. So you were right in meeting our summons.
11 The purpose is this: We want to have the truth manifested, to
12 know exactly what happened in that period of the years 1992 and 1993. We
13 want to know what the involvement of the SRS was in certain events, what
14 everybody's part was. We want to know what your position was within the
16 very serene and calm manner, so that this hearing can unfold as smoothly
17 as possible.
18 By way of explanation, I also add that the Judges -- I'll start,
19 but that the Judges have a series of questions for you. It should take
20 one and a half to two hours. Thereafter, the parties, that is, the
21 Prosecution and Mr. Seselj, will each have an hour to put questions to
22 you, questions that they deem appropriate.
23 Have you understood everything I said? You're aware of the
24 climate and spirit in which you're going to testify?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are, first of all,
4 interested in knowing your professional background, your education in
5 particular. Could you, in a few words, tell us what your university
6 background is?
7 A. First of all, I studied at the Higher School
8 Administration. Then I went to the Law Faculty, and I held high
9 positions in the business community and in the state administration. I
10 was secretary of two companies: One was an agricultural farm and the
11 other one was a construction company. I was general manager of a big
12 factory, the Utva aircraft factory. I was a member of the board in
13 charge of general and legal matters, and of course I was a federal MP
15 After leaving the Serb Radical Party, I became rather passive,
16 politically speaking, but so far I've completed about ten serious papers,
17 namely, seven papers and eight books pertaining to the state system, the
18 political system.
19 I'm preoccupied with the fate of the Serbian people.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we could not hear the
21 witness due to background noise.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have been dealing with the --
23 rather, I have been dealing with the history of the Serbian people, and I
24 became, therefore, a member of the Academy of Spiritual Work. It is --
25 its seat is in Crimea
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall return to several of
2 these points, but let's focus on your university background.
3 You studied at the law school in the Belgrade University
4 guess that you graduated, you got a license, or a BA, or a doctorate.
5 What is the exact title?
6 A. No. On the basis of these papers and books I've written, I
7 became a member of this academy, a regular member. It's not a state
8 academy. It was established by creative people from different walks of
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. There must have
11 been a hitch in the translation. I was asking you this: You studied at
12 the university, and I wanted to know whether, when you were studying at
13 the law school, you eventually graduated, and you graduated with a PhD in
14 law, or a Master's, or a BA; what is the actual degree that you got?
15 A. I got my law degree in Belgrade
16 jurist. As for these other scholarly works that I engaged in --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could no longer hear the
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not interested in the
20 books, but you said that you are -- you graduated in law. What was your
21 specialty in law, because I noticed that you wrote papers --
22 A. The stream that I studied at was commercial law.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In commercial law, I see.
24 A. Matters pertaining to procedural law.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to your career, your
1 professional background, you said that you had various occupations, you
2 worked in many companies.
3 A. I was secretary of the municipality, too.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but let's wait until we
5 get to the political side of things. I'm still with the administrative
7 In the various posts that you occupied, I think that the common
8 denominator was that they basically focused on administrative matters,
9 logistical and organisational matters. Was that your primary skill, when
10 it came to those positions?
11 A. Yes, yes, but I also worked in the business community. I was a
12 member of the collective general manager, as it were. I was a member of
13 a board of a big company, big in terms of our country, on that scale.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now deal with the
15 political part. I was under the impression that after doing your
16 military service in the JNA, just like any other citizen, you then, in
17 1963, joined the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. Can you confirm
19 A. That is correct. I joined the League of Communists of
21 committee of the League of Youth of Subotica.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Were you then a
23 firm believer of communism or did you join the League of Communists
24 because it was the only way to get anywhere in high positions?
25 A. Well, you know what, at that time lawyers didn't have much of a
1 choice. They had to be involved in the existing political and economic
2 system. That was one of the motives.
3 The second motive was that this self-management socialist
5 one's knowledge and one's work, one was supposed to help the development
6 of that country. It was a successful country, from the point of view of
7 the economy, from the point of view of foreign policy, in every
8 conceivable point of view. Over here, even, in this court, it was often
9 pointed out that we had a very good and capable army, and in all other
10 fields we were a country that prospered.
11 I believed, as a citizen, that it was my responsibility to give a
12 contribution that even exceeded what my obligation might have been. I
13 liked that country.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very good. So in order to
15 contribute to the country that you say you loved, you took up positions
16 at municipal level. What prompted you to enter that sphere of municipal
18 A. Well, you see, in my career I was never in a position to make
19 requests, to ask for something. Every time when I would change jobs,
20 people asked me to move on, to take a job that was even more complex,
21 because up until then I had been successful in carrying out my duties.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the reason why you
23 joined the municipal administration?
24 A. Correct.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us now speak
1 about your political involvement before you joined the Serb
2 Radical Party.
3 Could you, in a few words, tell me what you did politically,
4 knowing that the League of Communists is an organisation that you're
5 going to leave, that you left in order to move on to political actions by
6 way of writing articles, et cetera; so could you say some more about it
7 as to your political involvement before you joined the Serbian Radical
9 A. Mr. President, I was always preoccupied with the fate of my
10 state, especially of my people, the Serb people. In my family, many
11 people had lost their lives in the most recent wars, and in all the wars
12 in which the Serb people had participated and suffered greatly. As
13 secretary of the municipality in Banat from 1974 onwards, that is to say
14 from the moment when this Constitution of Yugoslavia was adopted, namely,
15 the Constitution that transformed Yugoslavia partly into a confederacy, I
16 immediately came to the conclusion that that kind of a community, that
17 kind of a setup, was incapable of functioning properly. Nevertheless,
19 However, what I found interesting and what I thought was
20 unacceptable was the fact that Serbia
21 It had two provinces that were completely independent and geared towards
22 the federation, in terms of all its powers. Vis a vis Serbia
23 had a formal relationship, proof to tell, the Constitution did provide --
24 the Constitution of Yugoslavia and the Constitution of Serbia, that is,
25 did provide for the possibility of transferring some authority to Serbia
1 itself that basically was given to the provinces by the Constitution.
2 However, this was not taken advantage of. On the contrary, separatists
3 and independents grew in both provinces.
4 As for Vojvodina, there were no inter-ethnic tensions, none that
5 I would have noticed, but in Kosmet there were major problems. These
6 problems escalated at the time of the crisis faced by Yugoslavia, and as
7 a person who is primarily engaged in patriotism rather than politics, I
8 joined this movement to save the Serb people in Kosovo and Metohija and
9 to have Kosmet and Vojvodina returned within the state structure of the
10 Republic of Serbia
11 Since that was my option, from an emotional and a rational point
12 of view, vis a vis our people, the Serb people, and the other peoples --
13 of course, I'm not in favour of any kind of mistreatment, or any kind of
14 force, or any kind of discrimination against any people, may I add;
15 however, I joined a movement that we then called the Serb People's
16 Movement, or, rather, the People's Movement for a United Serbia. And
17 later on, I was one of the top people of that movement for Vojvodina, and
18 it was on the crest of that movement that Kosovo and Metohija and
19 Vojvodina were returned in 1989 to the state structure of Serbia, because
20 the Constitution of Serbia was amended.
21 As an individual, as an intellectual, I took part in that
22 movement. I made my proposals in newspapers. I was the first one in
23 Vojvodina to do so, in order to have these amendments passed to the
24 Constitution of Serbia
1 Later on, I wrote a study, a paper, about autonomy. Later on, I
2 expanded it and wrote a book. I think that many scholars, including a
3 lady who testified here, Smilja Avramov, believe this is the best book
4 written in the territory of the former Yugoslavia about the subject
5 matter of autonomy.
6 I was in this movement. I was arrested four times by the State
7 Security Service, but of course I persevered because I was convinced that
8 I was fighting for the right thing, for elementary rights; the right to
9 life, the right to freedom of the Serbian people and all citizens of
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me stop you, sir, because
12 your answer returns over several pages of the transcript, and this is a
13 complex matter and I have to sum it up.
14 Your approach seems to be connected to the following observation
15 you made: You realised that Vojvodina and Kosovo-Metohija were, in
16 relation to Serbia
17 was to try and unify all this within the Republic of Serbia
18 that, you wrote papers and you tried to make yourself known. This
19 political fight, the struggle you fought, was basically focused, as I
20 understood you, on the situation in Kosovo-Metohija, and this resulted in
21 you having some political weight in Serbia.
22 Is this the way we can sum up what you did before you met with
23 the Serbian Radical Party?
24 A. Mr. President, I have to make things clear, clarify one of your
1 I didn't fight against the autonomy of Vojvodina, Kosmet, within
2 the frameworks of Serbia
3 Vojvodina and Kosmet in which they were completely autonomous and
4 independent in relation to Serbia
5 constitution, they had their police force, they had their legal organs,
6 courts. Serbia
7 And in addition to that, I also fought to have a realistic status
8 given to the provinces, because that was one of the conditions for
10 mine, I and all those who took part in this did not question Yugoslavia
11 and the functioning of Yugoslavia
12 I became well known. I was at the head of the organisation which
13 was called the Alliance of Solidarity of Yugoslavia or Union of
14 Solidarity, and the Serbian Radical Party had not been established at
15 that time. I became a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.
16 And in this court --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, before we get to
18 the Serbian Chetnik Movement. I would like us to stay in 1990.
19 It seems that in 1990, you will set up a small party. Could you
20 tell us exactly which party you set up.
21 A. The party was not well known. It was just a contribution to try
22 to force the powers that be to allow us to set up new political parties
23 or, rather, to introduce a multiparty system. And it was on the basis of
24 that popular movement for a united Serbia
25 Slobodan Milosevic had to accept, was forced to accept, we had
1 discussions with Slobodan Milosevic which lasted six and a half hours,
2 and our activists from Kosmet and Vojvodina were there. And at the
3 meeting, we managed to convince him that a multiparty system must be
4 introduced in Serbia
5 And it's interesting to note that at that meeting, it was
6 concluded that new parties should not be established, that we should not
7 form new parties. But we persevered and did stand by our decision to set
8 up a party, and it's interesting that the conclusion of the session was
9 that parties should not be formed, but we nevertheless went ahead and did
10 form a party. And a week later, there was a proclamation after the
11 meeting, a statement after it, when they saw that we had set our minds to
12 form the parties and persevere that the citizens of Serbia should be
13 allowed to establish parties.
14 So that was our role. We put in a lot of effort there, and the
15 State Security did its best to suppress us and our actions, but we never
16 spared any effort because we managed to achieve one of our goals, and
17 that was to introduce democracy into Serbia and a multiparty
18 parliamentary democracy.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I'm not mistaken, this
20 was called the Democratic Party of Freedom in your own language,
21 "Demokratska Stranka Slobode," and I apologise for my pronunciation. Was
22 that what this party was called?
23 A. Yes, that's right, that's what it was called, the "Demokratska
24 Stranka Slobode."
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this is an
1 interesting contribution, because so far this had not been mentioned.
2 So you were talking to Mr. Milosevic, and you tried to get him to
3 understand that he had to move the country into a multiparty democracy.
4 And it's in this framework that you set up your small party, but
5 obviously he didn't really like the idea. Is that it?
6 A. Well, it was like this: I was in favour of having Serbia
7 the initiative in restructuring the state in this transition towards a
8 democratic system, and that we should have the initiative -- take the
9 initiative within Yugoslavia
11 they got the advantage, which they used with respect to Germany
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why didn't you join the
14 Socialist Party of Serbia
15 A. I didn't join the Socialist Party of Serbia because it was a
16 party which was formed in an inconsistent way. The League of Communists
17 of the day and the Socialist Alliance of the Working People of Yugoslavia
18 transformed itself to become the Socialist Party.
19 Now, I respect people with conviction, who act in politics on the
20 basis of their convictions and on the basis of their ideology, and not on
21 the basis of the wish to rule and to take advantages of the existing
22 situation, opportunistically, and that's what happened. It happened in
23 all countries of transition. The former Communist parties became
24 Socialist parties.
25 I was in favour of democracy. Those were my beliefs. I come
1 from a family that has those traditions. My father fought for democracy,
2 and he emerged from World War II as a Chetnik commander. And here
3 Chetniks are spoken about in a derogatory manner. There's a derogatory
4 view of them, unfavorable, but I'll explain that in due course later on.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's come closer to the very
6 heart of the matter, which is your joining the Serbian Radical Party.
7 Could you please tell us whether at the time, February/March
8 1991, tell us what you -- what was your impression of the Serbian Radical
9 Party at the time, as well as of its leader, Mr. Seselj? What was the
10 impact of this party and its leader on the political life at the time,
11 and on what grounds did you decide to join this party?
12 A. I first met Mr. Seselj as the president of the Serbian
13 Freedom-Loving Movement, which was the first political organisation which
14 he established, and that was a political party with a Yugoslav
16 And I remember well that one of my co-fighters from Bosnia
17 Asim Delic, for example, was one of the founding members of that Serbian
18 Freedom-Loving Movement. It was a movement of distinct Yugoslav
19 orientation. Asim Delic fought in Bosnia against the bureaucracy that
20 had entrenched itself there and sought greater freedoms for the citizens.
21 They had Galijasevic with them and many others. And if I can put it this
22 way, the prime political fighters for the new democratic system and the
23 reconstruction of Yugoslav based on democracy went along with Dr. Seselj;
24 and they promoted a programme and policy for the defence of Serb national
25 interests, but within the frameworks of Yugoslavia, of the Yugoslav
1 community. And Dr. Vojislav Seselj remained along those lines up until
2 the formation of the Chetnik Movement and the Serbian Radical Party. He
3 remained true to those ideals of adopted the same position.
4 Of course, when Yugoslavia
5 foreign forces -- foreign intelligence services became involved and
6 meddled, and they destroyed that joint state, we had to think about the
7 fate of our own people, our own nation, and seek out a programme by which
8 we would be able to defend the interests and protect the interests of our
9 people, because on the political arena of Yugoslavia or, rather, Croatia
11 destructive forces that came to the fore, which in World War II were on
12 the side of Hitler's Germany
13 over the Serbian and other people.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have told us at length what
15 Mr. Seselj might have embodied, but I believe that I understood that you
16 did not join because of Mr. Seselj because of a number of ideas that
17 could have allowed the Yugoslav people, in all its diversity, to face up
18 to the collapse of the country. So could you tell us, in details,
19 exactly what, in 1990 and 1991, were the values that the Serbian people
20 wanted to obtain and reach? What could have been the political platform
21 of a party bringing together a number of people that could promote a
22 project? Could you tell us what the objective of such a political party
23 could be?
24 A. The objectives were the preservation of Yugoslavia as a stable,
25 multinational community, without bringing into question the interests of
1 each and every one of the Yugoslav peoples, the national minorities too,
2 and also to establish a position of equality for the Serbian people,
3 because it was quite obvious that the Serb people were being expelled
4 from Kosovo and Metohija. There were many cases of violence against the
5 Serb people, and you have the following piece of information, for
7 In the 1939 census, Serbs and Siptars or, rather, Albanians,
8 there was an equal number; 10.000 or 15.000 less Serbs. Now, according
9 to the census -- well, it wasn't in 1991. But, anyway, according to the
10 next census, the Serbs dropped to 200.000, to the figure of 200.000 --
11 or, rather, 300.000. Now, today, there are just about 150.000 Serbs in
12 Kosmet, or even less. So it wasn't the number of Siptars that decreased
13 in Kosovo and Metohija, with all the authority that Yugoslavia and Serbia
14 had, but it was the number of Serbs that were reduced. The Siptars had
15 their own movement of independence geared towards a Greater Albania. It
16 wasn't a movement that was created while the Socialist Federal Republic
17 of Yugoslavia
18 I don't want to go into the history of the Serb people and all
19 the suffering from Albanian terrorism, but it was all -- the Turkish
20 empire, under the Turkish empire for 500 years, Hitler's state,
21 Mussolini's state. During the communist state, it was always the Serbs
22 that suffered, and now we have the domination of the United States of
24 of course we had to seek a way to resist this or, rather, to return part
25 of the state functions of Serbia
1 to the area of Kosovo and Metohija.
2 When in 1981 the Presidency of Yugoslavia decided to bring in the
3 police from all the Yugoslav republics to Kosovo, we Serbs weren't
4 opposed to that because we didn't see that we were violating any
5 sovereign rights because we were in favour of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav
6 Federation. And now this movement for a united Serbia, it was a truly
7 Yugoslav movement, and I joined Mr. Seselj as the president of the
8 Serbian Chetnik Movement, because the Serbian Chetnik Movement, in its
9 party programme, had the -- had to preserve Yugoslavia, to preserve the
10 parliamentary system, multiparty parliamentary system, democracy and
11 capitalism, on the foundations of the programme of Draza Mihajlovic, the
12 Chetnik commander from World War II.
13 And as far as Draza Mihajlovic is concerned, much has been said
14 about him, things that are not true. He was a very well-educated
15 officer. He graduated from the academy, military academy, with
16 Charles de Gaulle. He graduated from the military academy in Paris
17 his programme was almost identical to the resistance movement of
18 Charles de Gaulle. And as I say, Draza was a democratic. However, the
19 unfortunate thing was that we had two movements in World War II.
20 And the other unfortunate thing was that in our Yugoslav
21 Federation, there was always foreign interference in a destructive way,
22 so the centres of those powers were in Germany and in the Vatican
23 where they were to be had. And I think that Dr. Seselj is the person who
24 studied all this in depth and comprehensively.
25 So it was from those positions that I joined the Serbian Chetnik
1 Movement, whose president was Dr. Vojislav Seselj.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You gave us the
3 reason why you joined this movement led by Mr. Seselj. Now, from what
4 you just told us, I would like to highlight two things.
5 First, the situation in Kosovo-Metohija. Obviously, for a Serb,
6 it's a real problem. According to the figures you just gave us, you felt
7 that the number of Serbs in this area was decreasing, and this was a
8 critical problem, nationally.
9 The second problem you seem to highlight and which motivated your
10 joining the Chetnik Movement is that according to you, there were some
11 intervention from foreigners. You mentioned two more -- you mentioned
12 two foreign influences, Germany
13 that all this was mentioned in Mr. Seselj's books. Then you joined the
14 Chetnik Movement.
15 Can you tell us what this movement represented at the time within
16 the Serb community? What did it represent, in terms of man count, and
17 what was its political influence, what was its weight? What was the
18 importance of the Serbian Chetnik Movement at the time, when we know that
19 we also had Milosevic and the Socialist Party, his Socialist Party? Tell
20 us about the importance of the Chetnik Movement in the political scene at
21 the time.
22 A. Well, that movement meant a great deal in the moral sense. It
23 awakened feelings of Serb solidarity. It awakened people to the truth.
24 It showed us that we had to look at the situation realistically. It
25 pointed out the dangers that threatened the joint state and showed the
1 dangers that threatened the Serb people.
2 It wasn't the goal of the Chetnik Movement to create a clash with
3 Milosevic, but we were convinced that Milosevic, too, was in favour of
4 preserving Yugoslavia
5 to stay in power and to transform his power in the extent and manner to
6 which -- which would ensure his positions in future. So we did not want
7 to have any conflicts or clashes, we did not want to break up Yugoslavia
8 quite the contrary. It was our aim to preserve Yugoslavia, but we wanted
9 to awaken the nation's consciousness and to ensure that the Serb people
10 looked at the situation realistically, and also to awaken their readiness
11 for the defence of Yugoslavia
12 Now, let me tell you this: The traditions of the Chetnik
13 Movement are, in fact, the traditions of the Serb people, and those
14 traditions emerge from the times of Kosovo, and loyalty to the Chetnik
15 Movement means that you are ready to lay down your -- to give up -- lay
16 down your lives for Serbia
17 defend our religion too, because it was under threat with the advent of
18 the Turks, and today, too.
19 For example, in Montenegro
20 upon us, and there's no realistic basis for that, either moral, or
21 religious, or doctrinaire, or any other for some new religion. So that
22 were our aim, those were our objectives. And the longstanding tradition
23 of the Chetnik Movement was to fight like a knight, honourably, and when
24 read all the Serb poems and look back to Serb poetry, you can see how the
25 Serbs envisaged warriors fighting for freedom. And also this includes
1 nurturing humane qualities and noble qualities in going into battle; that
2 is to say that you must kill the frail, you must not kill civilians, you
3 must not kill people you have captured. The struggle against people who
4 are out to kill you and kill your people and nation, and people who are
5 out to kill and abuse people in general, that was who we were fighting
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it so happens that we
8 had a number of witnesses in this Tribunal, not intellectuals -- I'm not
9 talking about intellectuals, but people who had an average level of
10 education, and they did come and tell us and explain why they joined the
11 Chetnik Movement or the Serbian Radical Party. And these people, who did
12 not have the excellent education that you had or the high-profile
13 positions that you had, told us that they joined this movement for
14 reasons that had to do with monarchy, because they wanted the king to
15 come back, they wanted monarchy to be re-installed. We heard this a
16 number of times.
17 So what do you -- could you tell us what you think of this
18 monarchist trend within the Chetnik Movement, because we have a number of
19 witnesses who told us that that was the reason they joined. And to tell
20 you the truth, we almost feel that they haven't really understood what
21 was the final objective sought by the party, because they just wanted the
22 king to come back. They wanted to have a king on a throne in Yugoslavia
23 So what do you think of this?
24 A. Well, this is what I think; that the king was more a symbol of
25 changing the social system, that is to say, leaving behind communism and
1 introducing a multiparty democracy and everything else that a new society
2 would bring with it. But let me tell you, Aleksandar Karadjordjevic,
3 when he arrived in Serbia
4 that the monarchy was the real solution. Well, he didn't learn his
5 mother tongue, for instance. It's not nice to say bad things about one's
6 king, but he doesn't appear to be too intelligent, he doesn't seem to
7 have the kind of conduct that European kings have. He even appeared
8 funny in certain situations and did not instill respect and did not show
9 that he could contribute to his nation and his state in any way, so that
10 initial desire that we had to have a king, to have a king who would help
11 us in transforming society, and contribute to saving democracy, well,
12 that bubble burst; and the first person to understand and realised that
13 was Mr. Seselj, and he also had an opportunity of getting to know the
14 heir to the throne more closely.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems Mr. Seselj was
16 inspired by a person called Nikola Pasic. Can you tell us who this
17 person was?
18 A. Ah, Nikola Pasic. Nikola Pasic was the greatest Serbian
19 politician of the 20th century. That's who he was, he was a consistent
20 fighter, fought for the interests of his country, his nation, but always
21 in favour of democracy. He was a fervent royalist. He respected king
22 and country, but he had a lot of problems with everyone, with King Milan
23 and with King Aleksandar Obrenovic, and with that other one,
24 Karadjordjevic -- the Karadjordjevics, both Petar and Aleksandar, and he
25 died after having been to an audience with King Aleksandar, at which
1 Aleksandar I, Karadjordjevic, was rude to Nikola Pasic and said -- had
2 some criticisms of his son.
3 But, anyway, Nikola Pasic has left an indelible trace on the
4 country and the Serb people, and especially his beliefs in democracy. He
5 had a fervent belief in democracy, and Nikola Pasic is the most deserving
6 politician, most deserving for all the things that the Serb people
7 achieved in the Balkan wars, in World War I, when we made our
8 contribution beyond and above the size of our country and the strength of
9 our country. And then the Western countries and all the freedom-loving
10 countries acknowledged that and respected him and the country, and our
11 alliance with the French people, for example, and the French state.
12 But unfortunately in this latest war, things have made an
13 about-turn, unfortunately, because the destructive forces in Western
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly,
17 Nikola Pasic was a politician who was inspiring the idea of democracy.
18 He was a major democrat, a leading democrat, if we had to sum up his
19 personality and his contribution to Mr. Seselj's ideas.
20 A. Yes, that would be true. Nikola Pasic made the greatest
21 contribution to further the democratic traditions in Serbia, of course,
22 but also for the defence of state and national sovereignty. He wielded
23 the greatest influence on politics. And after the ultimatum that
25 was an ultimatum that Serbia
1 all the conditions laid down except for one, and that was that
2 Austro-Hungarian police could enter Serbia to carry out an investigation,
3 and he demonstrated how the sovereignty of the country should be defended
4 by doing that. And now tell me what kind of sovereignty we have in
6 who's going to be our minister, who's going to lead our government, what
7 kind of monetary we're going to have, open telephone lines, and so on and
8 so forth? So we believed the West --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are now dealing
10 with the present politician situation, but we're interested in the past.
11 We're interested in the years 1990-1991, and Pasic. We're not going to
12 discuss Mr. Solana at the moment.
13 So let's come back to 1991. You told us about the Serbian
14 Radical Party. You joined it, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe that
15 you were appointed to a senior post within the leading -- within the
16 leaders of the Serbian Radical Party. Is that true?
17 A. Well, at the founding Assembly of the Serb Radical Party, I was
18 elected member of the Main Board. However, I actively joined the Serb
19 Radical Party activities only in September because I was wrapping up my
20 activities in the People's Movement for a United Serbia. That movement
21 was still functioning up until mid-1991. That is when I was given the
22 office of head of the Regional Board for Banat. That is what the
23 internal setup of the Serb Radical Party was like then, according to
24 regions, with a central organ, of course.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This Banat area, how far is it
1 from Belgrade
2 A. No, Banat
3 live in, and it's 12 kilometres away from Belgrade. Speaking from a
4 strictly geographic point of view, the area of the city of Belgrade even
5 includes a small part of Banat
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it's very close to Belgrade
7 You mentioned Pancevo, and I understood that you organised the
8 first visit made by Mr. Seselj to that town.
9 A. Mr. Seselj had this public position as head of the Serb Radical
10 Movement, so his voice was heard in the public. I did things within the
11 scope of the time frame allowed by Mr. Seselj's schedule.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were
13 present, as I understand it, when Mr. Seselj made a speech in Pancevo.
14 Is that correct?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we could not hear the
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me how
18 Mr. Seselj, as a politician, made that speech? How was it organised?
19 Did he have prepared speeches or did he improvise as he was going along?
20 Did he manage to establish a close contact with those who attended a
21 political meeting? Was he a real public speaker? Could you, in a few
22 words, tell us how he was as an orator?
23 A. One cannot say that Mr. Seselj improvises. He has a great deal
24 of knowledge, and he plans his public appearances. Mr. Seselj can be
25 inspired by a big gathering of people, but Mr. Seselj never steps out of
1 the framework of his programme and his convictions. He knows how to
2 establish contact. He knows how to work an audience, how to thrill an
3 audience, especially consisting of members of our own people, but also
4 the national minorities. He does not speak about conflicts among people
5 and nations. He does not talk about discrimination. He doesn't talk
6 about persecutions, genocide. He talks about resolving problems. He
7 indicates, in realistic terms, what the situation is like. He does not
8 talk like most politicians, only from the point of view of daily
9 political interests. Rather, he speaks from the point of view of the
10 actual situation as it is, the possible consequences, and he offers
12 Therefore, Mr. Seselj does not really improvise. Rather, there
13 is inspiration. But Mr. Seselj has a very strong will, and he can
14 control himself and the expression of his thoughts.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does this mean that when
16 Mr. Seselj makes a speech - and the reason why I'm asking you this is
17 that Mr. Seselj's speeches are very relevant in this case - so when he
18 makes a speech, does that mean that the speech has already been worked
19 up, I mean, prepared by him or his associates; therefore, when he appears
20 publicly, everything he's going to say has been thought through,
21 prepared, and that there is no room for this last-minute improvisation?
22 A. Well, you know what -- oh, no, no. What I was trying to say was
23 that Mr. Seselj never goes outside the framework of his principles and
24 convictions, the positions that he holds and the conclusions that he came
25 to through his process of thought.
1 As for preparations, Seselj did not have any associates who could
2 help him in preparing his speeches. Seselj is by far the smartest one,
3 the one with the greatest body of knowledge and the person with a vision
4 in the Serb Radical Party at the time when I was there.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I understand it, when
6 Mr. Seselj would go to hold speeches, would go to rallies, he would get
7 there, forgive me the expression, with his hands in his pockets, so
8 rested, but he would launch into a speech that would mirror very
9 faithfully his thoughts?
10 A. Exactly, exactly, his convictions and the programme of the Serb
11 Radical Party. Of course, for the most part, he was the one who wrote
12 the programme. It is the fruit of his ideas and his thinking.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your answer as to the
14 manifesto, the programme of the Serbian Radical Party, makes it possible
15 for me to now delve into the inner workings of the SRS.
16 From what I understood, between the time when you joined and the
17 time when you left the party on the 7th of October, 1994, you were a
18 vice-president in the party, in charge of organisational matters and
19 personnel. The party also had structures at the level of republics. I
20 mean to say that the SRS
21 in other republics. Is that how I am to understand the way the SRS
23 A. Exactly. The Serb Radical Party existed for the Republic of the
24 Serb Krajina and for Republika Srpska and for Montenegro. These parties
25 acted in a united manner. The presidents of these parties and the
1 leaderships of these parties discussed things and reached agreement with
2 Mr. Seselj and the rest of us. We had a joint programme, but each and
3 every one of these parties was registered in their respective states on
4 the basis of the laws of those states. Coordination was serious, but
5 they did act independently in the parliaments of these three other Serb
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me who was the
8 one in charge of the SRS
9 responsible for the party in the Krajina? Who were the two individuals
10 heading the SRS
11 A. I remember. In Republika Srpska, there was Poplasen, Professor
12 Poplasen. I've forgotten his name. And in the Republic of Serb
13 Rade Leskovac, a well-known journalist. And in Montenegro, Acim Visnjic
14 [phoen]. Now, was there anyone else? Radovan --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as part of the way the SRS
16 would work, would Mr. Seselj have political working sessions with his
17 close vice-presidents or with the secretary-general? We had the pleasure
18 of meeting and seeing him a while ago. Would he have meetings with other
19 people in charge of the SRS
20 meetings with all the players?
21 A. There were meetings, and Mr. Seselj consulted with us, the
22 vice-presidents. He maintained the functioning of all the organs of the
23 party in accordance with the statute. However, there is one thing that
24 is characteristic of the Serb Radical Party; namely, that Mr. Seselj
25 dominated the party, but not on the basis of some kind of threats or some
1 other undemocratic measures. Rather, it was on the basis of his
2 knowledge, on the basis of how well-spoken he was. He works the most, by
3 far. He can make great efforts. He's a visionary, too. We all
4 respected him.
5 Some people do not understand Mr. Seselj because he tends to
6 speak in a loud voice. He sometimes raises his voice, too. However, a
7 man who works that hard and is so involved in the creative process
8 sometimes does get tired, too.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just confirmed that there
10 were meetings which you necessarily attended. Were there minutes of
11 these meetings or were minutes never taken?
12 A. Well, there were some working meetings before a session,
13 especially when a big rally was supposed to be attended or, say, a
14 meeting at a municipal committee, or some other assignment, then no
15 minutes were needed. We discussed who would go where, who would discuss
16 the economy, who would discuss foreign policy, social policy, and so on
17 and so forth. However, at the Main Board, at the meetings of organs
18 envisioned by the statute, minutes were invariably kept.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So minutes were always taken,
20 and if these minutes exist, they should be in the archives of the SRS, I
22 A. The Main Board, the Executive Board, that's for sure, the Central
23 Fatherland, although I really did not concern myself with minutes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We'll get back to that
25 later on. But as to the issue of the volunteers of the SRS, I guess that
1 when the decision was made at SRS
2 fronts, was there a meeting about it? If so, were you there?
3 A. Well, when I got actively involved in the work of the Serb
4 Radical Party, that is to say, in the month of September, what I found
5 there was intensive activity in terms of the volunteers going to join JNA
6 units and Territorial Defence units or, rather, organisation for war.
7 Of course, there were discussions at sessions concerning the
8 participation of volunteers. However -- well, you know what, we did not
9 have any kind of war staff; in name, yes, but we didn't have a war staff
10 that had some kind of equipment or that was engaged in some kind of
11 command, or that was in charge of some kind of war affairs, no.
12 I organised the departure of volunteers from the area of Banat
13 and we did that in the following way: They'd call us from Belgrade
14 the War Staff, telling us that the JNA and then later on the army of
15 Republika Srpska or the army of Krajina needed volunteers. Then we would
16 call these volunteers of ours and we'd send them to Belgrade. From
17 there, they went to Bubanj Potok or wherever. What was a specific
18 characteristic in our sending of volunteers was that we would always take
19 our volunteers to the church to take Holy Communion, which was a Serb
20 tradition from the time of the battle of Kosovo. Before the battle
21 started, the soldiers took Holy Communion. And then the priests spoke
22 about the need to defend the Serb people, but that they should wage war
23 in a chivalrous manner and in a noble manner.
24 I was present once or twice when a larger number of volunteers
25 were leaving. That is the same thing that Mr. Seselj said, too. He
1 never said, "We are going to go out there to kill the Croats, be
2 merciless," which would be in the tradition of some of the great European
3 nations. On the contrary, he always said, "No, you have to defend the
4 Serb people, the Serb people have to go on living in these areas, but
5 fight in a chivalrous manner like your forefathers from the days of
6 Kosovo onwards, be noble, do not commit any evil."
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, a question comes straight
8 to the mind of an outside observer or a judge. Why, in the defence of
9 the former Yugoslavia
10 out by the JNA, by the people's army? Why not resort to, quote/unquote
11 "volunteers" who would, like knights of the Middle Ages go, once they had
12 taken Holy Communion, why would they not go to combat? Why not choose
13 such individuals, as the very essence of any country, is that armed
14 forces are under the authority of a central state? Why did you
15 encapsulate, encompass, that notion of volunteers?
16 We've already heard a lot about it, but since you're here before
17 us, I have to put the question as well.
18 A. Well, you see, Mr. President, Yugoslavia
19 three days. It was a process, after all. In this process, there were
20 many forces at play in a destructive fashion. All of Slovenia was on the
21 move. They wanted to secede unilaterally without appropriate procedure.
22 They even killed our soldiers. They did not allow recruits to go to the
23 Yugoslav People's Army.
24 The same thing happened with Croatia. Even in Serbia
25 destructive activity. We had a Vuk Draskovic, who called upon recruits
1 from Central Serbia, Kragujevac, Valjevo, et cetera, not to join the JNA.
2 Now, these calls, had they been peaceful, would have been
3 reasonable ones. However, out there, they were killing Serb people.
4 There were still these new paramilitary formations. There was the
6 would be in jeopardy, too. So the JNA needed additional assistance from
7 those who wanted to fight.
8 It is on that basis that volunteers from Serbia, believing in the
9 Serb Radical Party, believing in Dr. Seselj, went there through the Serb
10 Radical Party. They could have gone directly through the JNA, too.
11 However, they had this special belief in Dr. Seselj, because he indicated
12 what the times were like and everything that was happening at that point
13 in time.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You, yourself, said that you
15 personally organised the departure of Serbian volunteers from the Banat
16 area, so you know this area very well. As far as you know, the
17 volunteers who would leave and had been armed by the JNA, because I
18 suppose that you did not provide them with weapons, is that right; so
19 under whose authority or under whose command were they put?
20 A. Under the command of the JNA. The Radical Party did not have any
21 formations, any commanders, any commanding officers, any military
22 structure of units, and it didn't have people who knew how to do that
23 kind of thing, nor did it take part in war operations through its people.
24 We only looked at this civilian aspect of the departure of volunteers
25 going into the war.
1 Later on, when volunteers would return, we took care of them,
2 especially those who were wounded or those who got killed. We collected
3 aid, and quite a few managers of different companies helped us. It was
4 easier for me in Pancevo because I was a colleague of the general
5 managers of big companies, and they really tried to do what they could
6 for us. They even gave apartments to the families of fallen soldiers.
7 It was the state that resolved other matters, it was the army that
8 resolved other matters; but, anyway, we worked in helping the volunteers.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I could show you documents
10 regarding the logistics and the assistance you provided to volunteers,
11 but there's no need for that. The documents have been admitted already.
12 I'd rather go to the crux of the matter.
13 As I understand it, the volunteers who would leave, who were
14 under the command of the Territorial Defence or the JNA, nevertheless
15 kept some kind of connection with the Serb Radical Party regarding the
16 situation of the volunteers, be it only if they were wounded, or killed,
17 or had trouble getting money or being paid; can you confirm that? Can
18 you confirm that there was some kind of link or a follow-up of the
19 volunteers at the level of the Serbian Radical Party?
20 A. Well, we only followed this up from the point of view of this
21 social welfare, this aid, trying to help these people. They were on
22 these lists of volunteers that were made even before the war broke out,
23 and we'd call them to come. Many of them were members of the Serb
24 Radical Party. Some of them were even members of the leadership of the
25 party. But you know what? All of this was done in a situation and an
1 atmosphere conducive to helping one's people, defending lives and
2 property of our own people in the war-engulfed areas.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you describe how the
4 War Staff worked that was led by Petkovic? Could you tell us who were
5 the members of the War Staff?
6 A. Well, in addition to Mr. Petkovic, I remember Rankic, but they --
7 they did not seem like any kind of warriors to me, or officers, or
8 something like that. They looked like people who were being engaged, who
9 were working very hard in assisting volunteers to leave and helping their
10 families to the best of one's ability.
11 Well, it was like a service. There was this work in terms of
12 organising departures, and then meeting volunteers when they'd come back,
13 but they didn't seem like commanders or officers at all or as any people
14 who were well-versed in warfare. No, they weren't. And we in the Serb
15 Radical Party, especially Vojislav Seselj, we did not have any such
16 aspirations, anyway.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a very specific
18 example, that of Vukovar.
19 We know, because we've heard witnesses, we saw evidence, that
20 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were in a unit in Vukovar. When
23 combat operations or decisions that were made, or were you not aware of
24 it? Did you only know that some individuals had been wounded or killed
25 and that there had to be -- the bodies had to be brought back to Belgrade
1 or that they had to be put into hospital in Belgrade? Could you tell us
2 what you knew, based, for instance, on the example of Vukovar?
3 A. Mr. President, well, I was one of the closest associates of
4 Dr. Vojislav Seselj. I really don't know anything about these
5 developments in the theatre of war. I only know about the things that
6 you referred to during the second part of your question; that some people
7 got killed, some people returned. That's the only thing I knew.
8 So we in the Serb Radical Party, and I'm sure that that goes for
9 Dr. Vojislav Seselj too, we did not have any insight into these
10 operations; and this didn't really matter to us. What matters to us was
11 that there was a force at the front-line, and that is the JNA and the
12 Territorial Defence, defending our people, and we were there to help.
13 Dr. Vojislav Seselj is consistent in respecting the setup of the
14 state. With our volunteers or with any kind of activity of ours, he
15 didn't want us to bring into question at all any of the legal and
16 legitimate functions of the state itself, or any of the levers of state,
17 especially such an important organisation like the JNA. That wouldn't
18 have been rational, it wouldn't have been useful, but it wouldn't have
19 been in accordance with our beliefs, or our programme, or our efforts to
20 make sure that there is a proper state based on the rule of law, well set
21 up, well established.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, one last question before
23 the break.
24 We have heard many witnesses, we have seen a lot of evidence,
25 that seems to boil down to this: Among the volunteers, there were some
1 offenders who had been in prison, served sentences, and who overnight
2 were released from jail in unknown circumstances and found themselves
3 under the label of volunteers on battlefields, and of course they
4 committed crimes.
5 As far as you know, I'd like to know whether the SRS volunteers
6 had been released from jail as part of a pardon or amnesty; and did you
7 keep getting volunteers from a hard core of criminal offenders who were
8 serving sentences and had been released in order to increase the number
9 of men from the JNA or the TO? Are you aware of that, because it was
10 told us, and we have heard testimony describing the behaviour of such
11 individuals. Did you know that, did you not know that?
12 A. Mr. President, I participated in the organisation of the
13 volunteers. What we checked was something that wasn't very difficult to
14 check. It was some very -- very basic things; first of all, whether this
15 volunteer had done his military service or had a criminal record, whether
16 it was a person who had a regular sort of life. And from my area,
17 really, there was no one like that. I mean, I'm sure that Mr. Seselj
18 would not have allowed such people to go, because otherwise who would
19 Dr. Vojislav Seselj be? Who would I be in the Serb Radical Party? We
20 are following the oath of Kosovo, the traditions of the Chetnik Movement.
21 And then I send criminals to loot out there or to slaughter Croats and
22 Muslims, this is a pure fabrication. I'm deeply convinced of that. It
23 is totally unacceptable. It does not belong to our core thinking.
24 Please, we are looking at the destiny of our people, exposed to
25 genocide. We are doing our best to help them. Now, would we do that
1 with criminals? My brain cannot accept that, let alone my very political
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are challenging
4 any statement of the kind, but you're adding one additional detail.
5 You're saying that these volunteers were screened, if I could say so,
6 because first they were checked to see whether they had done their
7 military service, whether they had a regular sort of life, and whether
8 they had ever been sanctioned. So in order to be volunteers, they had to
9 be screened; is that it?
10 A. Well, you know what, we were not a recruitment centre. It's not
11 that we managed people in terms of height or whatever. We just looked at
12 these basic elements in order to see who it was that was going out there
13 to defend the people. What else, what else? We cannot send people to
14 fight for the Serb people if, say, some of these persons are referred to
15 as thieves.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's time for our
17 20-minute break.
18 I would like the Registrar to tell me how much time I've already
19 spent, and we will meet again -- we'll resume in 20 minutes. Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.04 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Court is resumed.
23 Now, in direct line with my previous question, I would like to
24 return to Vukovar, because I am looking at elements that are in the
25 indictment. We know that Vukovar fell on November 18th. We know that
1 200 people were slaughtered in the -- at Ovcara on November 20, 1991.
2 Mr. Seselj's case is the following: He says that the SRS
3 volunteers left Vukovar before November 20th, and he told us, but so far
4 he hasn't demonstrated this, he told us that he had testimonies from the
5 bus drivers who drove the volunteers back before November 20th. So let's
6 talk about the repatriation of volunteers after they left the
7 battleground, repatriation by bus.
8 I would like to know whether this was part of your mandate. Were
9 you in charge of organising the repatriation of volunteers by bus?
10 Mr. Seselj.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the problem is in the
12 interpretation, but the interpretation I got was that there was no proof
13 about the return of the volunteers before the 20th of November. And let
14 me remind you that I showed you and the Prosecutor eight statements from
15 drivers who drove the volunteers.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I clearly said
17 the following: Mr. Seselj told us that we had eight statements from bus
18 drivers, stating that the volunteers had returned before November 20th.
19 This is what Mr. Seselj said. Mr. Seselj said he had statements in this
21 Let me go back to my previous question. If volunteers are
22 repatriated on buses, I would like to know whether you were involved in
23 this operation, at least on the logistics side.
24 A. Mr. President, I personally was not involved, but I do remember a
25 conversation with one of the volunteers from Pancevo. I remember his
1 surname. It was Stojanovic, and he said that there was fierce fighting
2 going on there, it was so fierce that they couldn't wait to go home, and
3 that they went home immediately after the fall of Vukovar.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you were not involved in
5 this, it must have been the War Staff who looked into this repatriation
6 of these volunteers?
7 A. Correct.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, regarding volunteers, I
9 would like to know the following: When a volunteer, sent on the
10 battlefield, committed an offence, whatever the offence, was the Serbian
11 Radical Party informed of this? And if so, what was the sanction
13 A. As far as I know, Dr. Vojislav Seselj was very strict when it
14 came to infractions and violations of discipline, and I remember that
15 whenever he sent volunteers off and whenever there was any discussion
16 about the activities of the volunteers, in addition to the principles of
17 chivalrous behaviour and noble behaviour, he would always stress the
18 respect that the Serb volunteers had to demonstrate, and he always
19 insisted upon discipline.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will not put any questions to
21 you regarding Mr. Seselj's speech on May 6th, 1992, at Hrtkovci, because
22 you said in your statement that this was the St. Sava and that day you
23 stayed home. However, I would like to talk about the exchange of flats.
24 We heard a good number of witnesses here who told us that the
25 Serbs had been expelled from Croatia
1 200.000 of them. Some went to Vojvodina, and the Croats and Serbs seem
2 to have exchanged flats. Now, as far as the leadership of the SRS is
3 concerned, were you aware of this exchange of flats?
4 A. We did know about it, and Dr. Vojislav Seselj insisted on having
5 this exchange of flats and property and that nobody should be at a
6 disadvantage and disadvantaged, as far as that was possible.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were aware of it. Very
8 well. Was this a deliberate desire on --
9 A. [Previous translation continues]... undertaken by the Serbian --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were aware of it. But did
11 the SRS
12 of flats would actually take -- exist?
13 A. Correct. Dr. Seselj insisted on that. Seselj always looks a
14 long way ahead, and his goal is that the Croats, those who at one time
15 converted to Catholicism and became Croats one day, should understand
16 this and accept this and be part of a joint nation again. Dr. Seselj was
17 not in favour of any kind of violence or any kind of revenge, especially
18 not persecution or genocide.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am now going to move into
20 more sensitive issues. Of course, all issues are sensitive, but some
21 more so than others, and I'm about to delve into very crucial matters.
22 You made a written statement after you were interviewed for four
23 days in 2003. Obviously, at the time -- well, not obviously. I would
24 like to know whether you knew at the time that this statement would be
25 used in the proceedings against Mr. Seselj.
1 A. Well, I took it seriously, the statement with the Hague
2 investigators, but from the beginning of my talks with the investigators,
3 right up to my conversation with Ms. Christine Dahl, I always stressed
4 that I did not wish to be a Prosecution witness, or a witness at all, for
5 that matter, because I did not take part in the war, I was not on the
6 battle front, I know of no crimes, and I know of no -- well --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, when you signed this
8 statement, you said that you wanted to contribute to the manifestation of
9 truth, but you did not deliberately say that you wanted to be a Defence
10 witness. I have the statement here in my hands, and there is no mention
11 of this.
12 A. My position was this: Not to go and testify, not to take part in
13 this trial. But I decided to be a Defence witness after having talked to
14 Ms. Christine Dahl. I talked to her and the investigator, Paolo Stocchi.
15 I held that discussion last year on the 16th of November. And I'll tell
16 you why.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You left the SRS in 1994.
18 Could you tell me why you left this party, and what was the difference of
19 opinion that forced you to leave the party?
20 A. Two reasons. The first is this: The people who surrounded
21 Dr. Seselj, his closest associates, were people without any ideals and
22 visions, ideas, without the capability -- without capabilities, people
23 who had no successful work behind them, either on the political scene or
24 in science or anything else, but were overtly ambitious and narcissistic.
25 And they didn't like me, either. They had some animosity towards me.
1 I'm a different man altogether, of different experience and different
2 structure. So that was the main reason. That they were people without
3 any visions and ideas, well, I can provide ample evidence to show that.
4 When they left Dr. Seselj, for example, they didn't do
5 anything -- give anything back to the public. They engage in politics
6 with some other political programmes. It includes some other people,
7 people who just talk about the European Union, in fact just following the
8 programme of some other political party. Boris Tadic's, in fact, to be
9 specific. So those are the kind of people I didn't want to associate
11 The second reason is Dr. Seselj, when the Serbian Radical Party
12 was under a total media blockade by the Socialist Party and
13 Slobodan Milosevic's regime, Dr. Seselj, in order to be heard publicly,
14 behaved as he did in the Assembly and caused incidents. He asked me to
15 pour water over Radovan Bozovic. I couldn't accept that. He wanted to
16 cause these media effects, and I couldn't do this to Bozovic. I know
17 him, I know that he gained riches, but not on the basis of what's work;
18 and now the papers are writing and saying that he's the head of the
19 Montenegrin mafia, which is the strongest mafia in Serbia, which is
20 destroying the Serb economy and Serb spiritual being, too.
21 So those are the two reasons.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You gave us your
23 two reasons, and we can now move on to the next topic which I wanted to
25 When you were interviewed by the investigators of the OTP, these
1 investigators were asking questions about the financing and the funding
2 of the SRS
3 far as funding is concerned and revenues?
4 A. What I know is this: When the Serbian Chetnik Movement was
5 founded, we were financed from the funds Seselj managed to -- through his
6 activities in Western countries, in Australia, America
7 from those proceedings, as president of the Chetnik Movement and as a
8 Serbian intellectual. Later on, when the elections were held in 1992, I
9 had my own sponsors for my own area, and from Branko Djukic, near
10 Banja Luka, who was in the oil business, we were given a whole truckload
11 of petrol, a 30-tonne truck. So there were people like that who helped
12 us out with fuel and other things. Otherwise, it wasn't my field of
13 expertise. I didn't have any insight into the treasury, or funds, or
14 anything like that.
15 But in one of my books, it says that I said that the Serb Radical
16 Movement of Dr. Vojislav Seselj was given 10 million in cooperation with
17 Milosevic and so on and so forth. Well, that's just an expression of my
18 impotence, my powerlessness and my response to certain assertions. Once
19 I left the Serbian Radical Party and when the Serbian Radical Party and
20 Dr. Seselj too, he maligned me and they maligned me; and they said I was
21 an idiot and a traitor, and that I had sold my soul, and things like
22 that. In addition to all that, they said that I had been given 5 million
23 German marks on Cyprus
24 said that they had been given 10 million. And that's the kind of thing
25 we do in Serbia
1 side certain things that are really not true. It's not true that I got 5
2 million marks. Had I had that money, I would be a big businessman, but I
3 live in Serbia
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On paragraph 83 of your
5 statement, you told the interviewers that Stefanovic had told you that
6 Milosevic had funded either Seselj or the Serbian Radical Party, had
7 actually given this party or Mr. Seselj 1 million Deutsche mark for the
8 support of an election. Does this mean that Slobodan Milosevic was
9 actually funding the Serbian Radical Party? It seems that that's what
10 you hint at in paragraph 83, and you say that you heard this from
11 Stefanovic and this was actually in one of your books.
12 A. I cannot substantiate that with anything, and it's even difficult
13 to believe. It's difficult to believe in that, since Slobodan Milosevic
14 blocked the party, incarcerated Dr. Seselj.
15 Now, this piece of information in my book, what I wrote there,
16 well, it's just rumour, I was just rumour-mongering because of my
17 powerlessness, so I wanted to inflict some damage, malign them as
18 retaliation for what they had said about me in the Serbian Radical Party
19 once I had left the party.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that the
21 information revealed in your book should be, in fact -- it's just a
22 settlement -- it's just ascribed to a settlement and it's rumours,
23 actually, more than anything; is that it?
24 A. Yes, that's the truth of it, that's the real truth of the matter.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I would like to
1 have -- I would like to know something.
2 Are you saying that what you wrote in your books is not to be
4 A. It's not credible, that -- and I can't prove it, and I'm not
5 proud of having written that, of having stooped in a period of my life to
6 the level of the desire to get my own back. I shouldn't have done that.
7 Certainly, it's a bad episode in my life.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to shed some light
9 on something you told the OTP, and let me sum it up.
10 The International Community had placed an embargo on oil imports,
11 and you said that the Serbian Radical Party had a company that made it
12 possible to bypass this embargo and to sell oil in former Yugoslavia
13 which helped the Serbian Radical Party obtain revenue at the time by
14 selling this oil. You said that, but are you challenging this today or
15 do you maintain this?
16 A. Well, that company was in existence for a very brief period of
17 time. Dr. Seselj conditionally accepted the work of this company, but
18 when he saw that business dealings like that were not commensurate with
19 the party image, he gave up on it, and it was closed down.
20 Now, later on, through my sponsor, I managed to secure enough
21 fuel for the elections in 1992, but that sponsor imported fuel himself,
22 petrol himself. He made a lot of money, and he's a very wealthy
23 businessman. You can find him near Banja Luka, at a petrol pump there.
24 So had it not been this black marketeering through Bulgaria, especially
1 economy and life in general; so you had to find a way to get around the
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You also involved one of
4 Mr. Seselj's relatives, his former bodyguard, Petar Panic. According to
5 you, he was controlling the black market, notably when it came to
6 currency exchange. Is it true or false?
7 A. I don't know about that. Mr. Paolo Stocchi talked about that
8 during the interview. I couldn't confirm it then, either. Now, what he
9 put on record, I don't know. The records were kept for four days. The
10 interview took place for four days. We had an interpreter. Mr. Paolo
11 Stocchi has a special way of asking questions. He asks you a question
12 and then provides the answer; and then he says who he got the information
13 from and so forth. Now, I gave my answer, and what he put into the
14 statement, into the record, I don't know. That Petar Panic had worked
15 with foreign current, I can't confirm that, nor do I have any insight in
16 the work of Petar Panic at all. He was a bodyguard to Mr. Seselj.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have one final question on
18 this issue, and it has to do with Mrs. Seselj.
19 Paragraph 92 of your statement, you explain that Mr. Seselj would
20 have received about US $50 million to enter into the government in
21 coalition with the SPS, and then you add that Mrs. Seselj, Jadranka
22 Seselj, owned an import/export company and that since her husband was
23 vice-president of the government of Serbia, that made it possible for her
24 to obtain a competitive advantage for her company. So do you still
25 maintain this or do you challenge it?
1 A. Mr. President, I had absolutely no means of knowing about any
2 dealings -- business dealings that Mrs. Seselj might have had at the
3 time, or about Mr. Seselj receiving any money from the Socialist Party.
4 At that time, I was not involved in politics. I was engaged in some
5 other affairs. I was leading quite a different life.
6 Now, Paolo Stocchi talked about that, and I assume he recorded
7 it, too, because he wanted to, because let me repeat, that's his style of
8 interviewing. He asked the questions, provides the answers. Now, what
9 goes down in the record, I really can't know.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you signed what is
11 written in paragraph 92. We have your initials on the minutes -- on the
13 A. I signed on the fourth day, without reading through the minutes,
14 the statement. And when Mr. Paolo Stocchi told me that he'd be
15 interviewing me some more if I refused to sign, I did refuse to sign.
16 However, he sort of prevailed upon me and forced me to sign in
17 that way. And his way of conducting an interview, well, does not accord
18 with the rules of procedure or is not according to legal provisions. He
19 has a cowboy way of interrogating, interviewing.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently after you left the
22 And then we get the impression that at one point in time, people around
23 Mr. Seselj tried to kidnap either your wife or your daughter, which is
24 just something you said. Now, could you tell us exactly what happened?
25 A. No, no, that's not what happened. The truth of the matter is
1 this: Near my flat at the time, several men stopped my wife. They
2 wanted to get her into their car. However, afterwards we learnt and
3 established -- that is to say, my associate called people up from the
4 Serbian Radical Party to see what was going on, and they said it had
5 nothing to do with the Serbian Radical Party or with Dr. Seselj. And I
6 know full well that Dr. Seselj uses [as interpreted] methods like that,
7 nor does he need to. What would he achieve, after all? He would achieve
8 a negative effect. It would have a negative effect, as far as he was
9 concerned and as far as his party was concerned. So this was done by
10 people arbitrarily who said that they had links to the Serbian Radical
11 Party. But we checked this out and found that they had nothing to do
12 with the leadership of the Serbian Radical Party at all, and especially
13 not with Dr. Seselj.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, at paragraph 129 of your
15 statement made with the investigators of the OTP -- you know, nothing
16 escapes me, and I scrutinised this document for hours, I poured over it
17 for hours. Well, at paragraph 129, you said the following: At the
18 beginning of 1995, members of the SRS
19 front of your apartment in Belgrade
20 your wife on the street and tried to drag her into the car. One of your
21 neighbours intervened and defended your wife. And then you explain this
22 action was done against you because Seselj wanted to punish you for
23 having left the party. So here you actually named Zoran Drazilovic and
24 incriminated him, so what can you say today regarding this affair?
25 A. I didn't see Zoran Drazilovic. My wife assumed that it was him,
1 but we later learnt that it wasn't Zoran Drazilovic or anybody else from
2 the leadership of the Serbian Radical Party, nor did anybody from the
3 Serbian Radical Party issue orders to that effect. And I know that
4 Mr. Seselj condemned that kind of behaviour, and they weren't people that
5 were responsible for politics and the actions of the Serbian Radical
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now move to the fact
8 that at one point in time, you decided to be a Defence witness. How did
9 this happen? Did you suddenly say, "Why be a Prosecution witness when I
10 could be a Defence witness?" Could you tell us exactly what train of
11 thought you had at the time in order to end up with this decision?
12 A. Well, the following reasons, Mr. President: On the 16th of
13 September, 2006, Mr. Dan Saxon came to see me. We had an hour-long
14 conversation, or a little longer, in fact, in a very pleasant atmosphere;
15 and I managed to convince Mr. Saxon that I could not be a witness that
16 would be of any use to the Prosecution, because I didn't take part in the
17 war, nor do I know about any war crimes, and at the same time I said I
18 believe that Dr. Seselj -- well, Mr. Saxon said:
19 "Very well. If you cannot testify about war crimes, come and
20 help us to politically liquidate Dr. Vojislav Seselj, because
21 Dr. Vojislav Seselj is the greatest danger to the new authorities in
23 And he stressed that we must ensure the kind of authorities --
24 authority and power that would be pro-Western, a pro-Western government.
25 And I said that I wasn't going to take part in that, either, of course.
1 But what was particularly important, as far as I was concerned,
2 was something that Mr. Saxon said. He said:
3 "Well, if you refuse and if all the others who we thought would
4 testify against Dr. Seselj refuse, then the question arises, and I don't
5 personally believe that Dr. Seselj will be convicted and punished."
6 That's what he said. That's the -- and I personally have no
7 evidence against him. So, well, I got through that, I lived through
8 that. They're prosecutors, they prosecute, they have their goals and
9 tasks. They seem to be more political than legal, to my mind.
10 But finally I decided, after working with Ms. Dahl, to come in.
11 And when I told Ms. Dahl the same thing I told Mr. Saxon, I said that I
12 cannot be -- could not be a Prosecution witness, Dr. Seselj did not
13 commit any crimes, she was resigned and said, "Well, you're refusing,
14 everybody's refusing, so what am I going to do with the indictment?
15 Seselj will go back, then."
16 And she also said, "You can speak neutrally what you wrote in
17 your statement." And I don't know what is in the statement. And then
18 she said, "When you come to The Hague, we'll decide about Ovcara and
19 Vocin." And then afterwards I saw that they want to convict an innocent
20 man, that they want to convict somebody for ideology and politics which
21 are the ideology and politics that I share. Well, you're not going to do
22 that, you Western people. We're not impotent, we Serbs. So when you're
23 pilfering us and looting us, you say, "Isn't that nice." When you kill
24 us, we're supposed to say, "Go ahead, kill us some more." Well, you
25 can't do it that way.
1 I am going to defend my Serb, Vojislav Seselj. And nobody from
2 the Serbian Radical Party initiated any agreement or interview. I
3 initiated a talk with Zoran Krasic after words with Petar Jojic, and I
4 have nothing to hide.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you took the initiative. I
7 A. Mr. President, believe me, I left Seselj, and you know what my
8 activity after that was. It is so obvious that no one can influence my
9 activity and --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to know this. Do you
13 have a political activity today or have you stopped altogether?
14 A. Now, I'm a member of the Serb Radical Party, and I'm a member of
15 the Municipal Assembly of the Town of Pancevo.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So you were elected a
17 member of Parliament at the last elections, and you are an SRS member,
18 and you are, as such, a member of Parliament?
19 A. No, I was on the ticket of the Serb Radical Party as of May.
20 After speaking to Ms. Dahl and after this visit paid by this lady on the
21 28th of February this year, this lady introduced herself as a Slovene,
22 I can describe her, whatever her name was, she came into my apartment,
23 she entered almost by force; and she said that she was a friend of this
24 Court. And she opened her bag full of foreign currency, and I threw her
25 out. Well, you know what? I cannot work in favour of a prosecutor that
1 is prepared to do all of these things that I've told you about until now.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were elected into
4 A. No, no. After this visit, and I gave this a great deal of
5 thought, and since I had prepared a new book in which I viewed the
6 position of the Serb people in global terms, and generally speaking I
7 look at global relations, this is a rather serious book with rather
8 serious aspirations, I realised and I am convinced that the only
9 authentic Serb politician now is Dr. Vojislav Seselj.
10 In Serbia
11 the interests of his state and his people, and that is
12 Vojislav Kostunica. However, Dr. Seselj is closer to me, in terms of his
13 programme and ideology, and I'm prepared to fight for this ideology and
14 this policy until the end of my life.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you say that you want to
16 fight for this ideology. Well, this brings me to a possible link between
17 Milosevic, Seselj, and Karadzic. As far as you know, did Mr. Seselj meet
18 with Mr. Milosevic ?
19 A. Well, I don't know about any specific meeting, but Dr. Seselj
20 didn't call me or inform me about that meeting. However, what I'm sure
21 of is that Milosevic was a bit afraid of Dr. Seselj as a competitor in
22 the field of government. Dr. Seselj always fully expressed the truth
23 about policies, about mistakes made, about good things done by Milosevic,
24 and he did not, therefore, depend on Milosevic at all, or on anyone else,
25 for that matter.
1 As for Milosevic, I don't think he's a traitor, but that he does
2 not have the right format to be able to lead Serbia and the Serbian
3 people. He, himself, admitted at the 2nd or 3rd Congress of the
4 Socialist Party that he had not made the right estimate of the
5 international factor. That is impermissible. It is an impermissible
6 short coming, as far as a politician is concerned, and also the detriment
7 is incalculable.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, what about
9 links with Radovan Karadzic? What were they?
10 A. Well, I don't know of any intensive relations between Dr. Seselj
11 and Dr. Karadzic. What I do know is that Dr. Karadzic is a politician of
12 a similar mettle like Milosevic. He did not like competition, and he
13 steered clear of Dr. Vojislav Seselj; and he did not want him to have an
14 influence over the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 However, as far as the defence of the Serbian people is
16 concerned, sending soldiers to Republika Srpska, there was some
17 cooperation, of course. Karadzic or Ratko Mladic would not allow Seselj
18 to interfere in their conduct of war, or would Dr. Seselj meddle in that
19 kind of thing. Like in the case of Croatia
20 the defence of the Serb people, and he did not set up any radical
21 formations of his own. After all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina there was an
22 independent Serb Radical Party.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The last topic I'd like to
24 address with you, Greater Serbia. You mentioned this in paragraph 104 of
25 your statement.
1 In your view, what was the outlook -- the concept Mr. Seselj had
2 of the Greater Serbia
3 A. A Greater Serbia is a concept, a concept of the historical and
4 national rights of the Serb people. As for this concept and this
5 ideology, Dr. Seselj elaborated it in a complete fashion, and he proved
6 how, during the 19th and 20th century, Serbs disassociated themselves
7 from their own nation, and that process is going on to this day.
8 According to the information from last year, already 50.000 Serbs
9 in Croatia
10 Christians. They don't want to abandon their ethnic and religious
11 background, but as the state organs and the Catholic Church in Croatia
12 that are making them do that. They were Serbs, they registered them as
13 Croats. They were Orthodox Christians, they registered them as
15 In my studies, I obtained some data, and I could not get a hold
16 of all the data that Dr. Seselj had, that, for example, according to our
17 well-known historian, Dragoljub Zivojinovic, before the Second World War
18 there were 1.900.000 Serbs in Croatia
19 200.000 in Croatia
20 is to be serious, a doctor, a professor, a doctor of sciences like
21 Dr. Seselj, can he not take that into account when elaborating his
23 These are the historic and national rights of the Serb people.
24 Dr. Seselj insists on that; namely, that that will be achieved through an
25 evolution. One day, this information is going to be made available to
1 all Croats, those who used to be Serbs and those who were not Serbs.
2 Dr. Seselj is counting on that. He's also counting on stronger Slavism,
3 that Slavism affirm its strength so that it's a partner to Western
5 I think that Dr. Seselj is proceeding from real, proven facts,
6 and that he basis his concepts and ideology on them. He does not
7 advocate, on the basis of his information, his knowledge, his research,
8 his books, he does not advocate conflict with other peoples. He does not
9 advocate genocide or conflict. He is responsible, in terms of the truth
10 and science.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to the concept of
12 pan-Slavism, I read with interest that you are the author of some papers
13 on the Constitution. As a lawyer, I'm sure you will understand the gist
14 of my question.
15 Is one of the consequences of pan-Slavism that territories,
16 frontiers, can be shifted, or is it just a cultural concept, a humanist
17 concept or a religious one that does not bring with itself any changes in
18 territory, that does not result in borders being changed, territory being
19 given, and is this concept compatible with Yugoslavia's -- former
21 estimate of the situation?
22 A. Mr. Antonetti, precisely, we do not advocate any kind of
23 secession, any kind of violent change of borders. I personally would
24 like it if we had the right kind of situation of renewing Yugoslavia, but
25 certainly not to -- not at the expense of the Serb people or any other
1 people. Of course, for the time being, that is impossible.
2 What I personally advocate, as an academician and as a citizen,
3 is that Slav countries cooperate to the best of their ability on the
4 basis of mutual interests of Slavic countries. In my academy, we do
5 study this subject matter. We study the specific characteristics of the
6 Slav peoples and also what we have in common, in terms of tradition,
7 language, culture, the economy and politics. We do offer such solutions;
8 inter alia, we prepared an agreement on the establishment of a Slavic
9 community. Of course, that cannot move ahead fast, but that is our
11 All these capacities should be used, and why not use the
12 experience of Western Europe too, when Western Europe organised itself
13 very nicely and everyone benefits from that? Why would Slav peoples not
14 do that, too, not on the basis of superiority and inferiority, as is now
15 being imposed through the European Union and NATO? Why would Serbia
16 in NATO now, and then they bombed us in 1999. They say we're friends.
17 Yeah, right, friends, friends who bomb us. Why would we not create that
18 kind of community, and why would not be -- why would we not be partners
19 very nicely in peace with the West and avail ourselves of all this
20 experience? Why would we not trade? Why would we not base relations on
21 that concept? Why not? And then this concept of the great de Gaulle,
22 who we Serbs highly respect, Europe
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question. I can tell
25 you that, but I guess you know. You know that in the indictment against
1 Mr. Seselj, a joint criminal enterprise is alleged, the purpose of which
2 is to create a Greater Serbia whose western borders would tally with the
3 Karlobag-Karlovac-Ogulin-Virovitica axis; and that therefore this Greater
5 it to be fulfilled. This is what the Prosecutor said in the indictment.
6 What do you think of this theory of a Greater Serbia with the
7 Karlobag-to-Virovitica line?
8 A. Mr. President, this line or axis was not invented by Dr. Seselj.
9 It was the French and the English who established it in 1915, when Serbia
10 put up a strong resistance against Austria
11 War, and when they were the allies of the Serb people and the Serb state,
12 and when they had a realistic view of the interests of the Serb people.
13 They took into account all of these facts and elements that Dr. Seselj
14 explained in his books. That is the historic right of the Serb people.
15 Of course, I accept that this is a historic and national right of the
16 Serb people, but I also accept the way in which this could perhaps be
17 carried through on the basis of evolution and a long-term process, like
18 Dr. Seselj.
19 Dr. Seselj did not call for a creation of a Greater Serbia
20 through showdowns, war, persecutions, crimes, or genocide. He pointed
21 this out as rights. He cautioned the Croatian people, "If you persecute
22 us Serbs, if you kill us, if you kill us for no reason whatsoever, in a
23 groundless fashion, these are our rights."
24 However, during the course of the war, Dr. Seselj never spoke
25 about volunteers, or did he ask the JNA to go out and establish this kind
1 of a Greater Serbia
2 and the rest in Yugoslavia
3 Well, we have this historic right, and after all, we advocated
5 been in existence. We only raised this issue in terms of defending the
6 Serb people from genocide, which they did experience, nevertheless, in
7 the territory of Croatia
8 I don't think that on the basis of this concept or this ideology,
9 Seselj advocated war, persecutions and genocide. That is my view, and
10 I'm sure of that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now turning to the
12 Prosecution. You have one hour.
13 Ms. Biersay.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could have one moment
15 just to reorganise.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Biersay:
17 Q. I think it's still morning. Good morning, Mr. Glamocanin.
18 A. Good day to you.
19 Q. My name is Lisa Biersay. We have not met, have we?
20 A. We haven't, no, but I've seen you. I've seen you in TV coverage
21 from these trials, and you seem to be very fair and very professional.
22 Now, whether you're going to be that way remains to be seen now.
23 Q. I'll try my best. You described to the Court your first
24 involvement with the SRS
25 the Court?
1 A. Well, I told you I was in the Serb Chetnik Movement, and the Serb
2 Radical Party came into being when the Serb Chetnik Movement united with
3 the People's Radical Party.
4 Q. Sir, do you need glasses in order to read?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. I wanted to show you a document on the screen. And let me know
7 if it would be easier to see the hard copy, but I think it will work.
8 If I could have 65 ter number 84, please.
9 I'd like to direct your attention to February of 1991. Was that
10 the time of the founding of the SRS
12 A. Yes. Yes, that is the time of the founding.
13 Q. And you were -- it was at that founding where you were elected a
14 member of the board of the SRS
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Also, there were members of the -- you describe the Serbian
17 Chetnik Movement; namely Petkovic and Gojkovic and Nikolic; is that
19 A. Well, Petkovic, yes. Gojkovic, Nikolic, I think they were from
20 the People's Radical Party.
21 Q. Were there also representatives from the NRS?
22 A. NRS meaning "Narodna Radikalna Stranka," People's Radical Party.
23 Well, that's it, Nikolic and Gojkovic, and I can't remember who else.
24 Q. Could you look at your screen, and are you able to make it out
25 from where you're sitting? The B/C/S version should be on your left.
1 A. Yes, yes, I can see it, yes. Yes, yes.
2 Q. If we could go to the title page.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the speaker.
4 MS. BIERSAY:
5 Q. Now, this is the Statute of the Serbian Chetnik Movement; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. BIERSAY: And for the Court, this was published in, I
9 believe, July -- on July 1st, 1990
10 At this time, the Prosecution would move for the -- move for the
11 admission of 65 ter number 84, please.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you sure that this has not
13 yet been admitted?
14 MS. BIERSAY: According to my assessment, Your Honour, it has not
15 been. I think there was another document with it.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I can
19 remember, this has been admitted. It was admitted during the testimony
20 of Expert Theunens, if my memory serves me correctly.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I thought,
22 too. I thought it had been admitted.
23 Let's have a number. If there were two numbers, if there were to
24 be two numbers, we'll just erase one. A number, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
1 Exhibit number P868. Thank you, Your Honour. Excuse me, correction for
2 the transcript. This shall be given Exhibit number P686. Thank you.
3 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you. And if we could please go to
4 paragraph 12 of that exhibit, please, or Article 12.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see that.
6 MS. BIERSAY: It's on the next page. It's coming.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The print is very small.
8 MS. BIERSAY: Is it possible to enlarge on just the B/C/S side
9 that section 12?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it. It has been
12 MS. BIERSAY:
13 Q. Now, in Article 12, am I correct in saying that is an outline of
14 the organisation of the party, of the movement?
15 A. Yes, that's what can be seen. In all of these areas, there are
16 Serbs, but not only Serbs. There are inhabitants of all other
17 ethnicities living in those areas that were members of this organisation
18 of ours, so it's not an exclusively Serb organisation.
19 Let me remind you of something else. I --
20 Q. One minute, one minute. We'll get to that. I just wanted to ask
21 you if, in that article, it names several regional administrations,
22 correct, for the Serbian Chetnik Movement?
23 A. Well, yes, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. When you described for the Court your tenure as
25 president of the Regional Board of Banat, the Court asked you where that
1 was, how many districts did the Banat
2 A. Well, Serbia
3 counties, rather; municipalities, counties and provinces. There are
4 three counties with centres in Pancevo, Zrenjanin and Kikinda,
5 respectively. At the time when I was president of the Regional Board,
6 there were these three counties. To this day, actually.
7 Q. And for those three districts, there was a president for each
8 one; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. A double objection, at
12 First of all, Ms. Biersay intentionally confuses the Serb Chetnik
13 Movement and the Serb Radical Party.
14 Secondly, this is the Statute of the Serb Chetnik Movement from
15 1990, not only during the existence of Yugoslavia, but also during the
16 existence of communist regime, and at that time there was no law on the
17 territorial organisation of Serbia
18 was passed, I think, in 1991, if I remember correctly, or perhaps even in
19 1992. So this is arbitrary, these regions set out here, and they're not
20 supported by any kind of administrative acts on the part of the state.
21 This is intentional confusion that is being created, and I simply
22 had to intervene.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, obviously the
24 document here does not address the Serbian Radical Party, but the Serb
25 Chetnik Movement. And, secondly, according to Mr. Seselj, this document
1 dates back to 1990, and as far as the administrative breakdown of Serbia
2 was concerned, there were no districts at the time, or that's what he's
3 saying, anyway. And the witness seems to be nodding and confirming what
4 Mr. Seselj is saying.
5 Please proceed with your questions.
6 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. And --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I omitted to
8 take that fact into account. I was speaking from the aspects of the
9 internal division of Serbia
10 actively in the work of the Serbian Radical Party, and present day
11 conditions. Yes, Mr. Seselj is actually right.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
13 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, I would respectfully request that to
14 the extent that Mr. Seselj has clarifying questions, that he waits until
15 his opportunity to examination the witness, instead of interrupting me
16 and making his arguments for which the witness is supposed to adapt his
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, I fully agree with
19 you, but then if you are going astray, you know, on an erroneous
20 assumption, then everybody is wasting time. So it's best, you know, to
21 put you back on track immediately, rather than let you waste 15 to 20
22 minutes on a subject, and then afterwards, in about 20 seconds, he can
23 destroy all the arguments you put forth.
24 MS. BIERSAY: With all due respect, Your Honour, it's not my
25 arguments, it's testimony coming from the witness, and Mr. Glamocanin has
1 shown he's more than capable of correcting me if I need to be corrected.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Proceed.
3 MS. BIERSAY:
4 Q. In addition to these -- the districts that you described, and you
5 also mentioned that there are municipalities as well within the region
6 over which you had the Presidency -- is that correct?
7 A. Madam Prosecutor, I can't tell you much about this. Yes, I was a
8 member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement. However, at that time, right up
9 until September 1991, I was active in another movement, and I was the
10 head of that movement, and that was the Solidarity Alliance of
12 Q. I understand, I understand. You, in addition to setting up and
13 taking oversight of this region, you also described how you assembled
14 experts, is that correct, to set up economic programmes, like education
15 and infrastructure and health for your region? You initiated all of
16 that; is that correct?
17 A. Along with cooperation -- agreement from Mr. Seselj, we
18 rallied -- I rallied experts, and we made an economic programme for the
19 Serbian Radical Party based on ideas or, rather, ideology, and that
20 programme was added on to later on and modified.
21 Q. You described for the Court the SRS branches that existed in the
22 other republics. Was there also an SRS
23 A. Madam Prosecutor, Vojvodina is part of Serbia, and I was at the
24 head of the movement which did a great deal and helped a great deal to
25 have Vojvodina back within the composition of Serbia. We didn't make any
1 separate organisation for Vojvodina.
2 MS. BIERSAY: If I could now have 65 ter number 7427, and I'd
3 like the last page, please. Actually, I believe it's 7427A, please.
4 Q. While we're waiting for that document, sir, the War Staff, if we
5 could talk about the War Staff.
6 You described the War Staff as part of the central structure of
7 the SRS
8 A. Well, for me, that staff was a service dealing with affairs
9 related to the departure of volunteers, their accommodation, taking them
10 in; but it wasn't only the War Staff of the Serbian Radical Party that
11 did things like that, but taking in these people as linked to the JNA
12 activities. The JNA, as has been proved here, brought all the volunteers
13 in buses. They were brought back to Belgrade
14 War Staff, others didn't. Then that War Staff also helped in the
15 following way: They helped them record their war service, that is to
16 say, the time they had spent on the battle front, and so on and so forth,
17 the benefits and so on.
18 Q. I believe that you did describe that for the Trial Chamber. My
19 question to you is: Was the War Staff one of the bodies of the Serbian
20 Chetnik Movement or was it separate from the Serbian Chetnik Movement?
21 A. No, the Serbian Chetnik Movement did not exist at that time, at
22 the time when the volunteers went to the battle front. It was the
23 Serbian Radical Party that existed then.
24 Q. When did the Serbian Chetnik Movement come into existence?
25 A. Well, Mr. Seselj has already said that, and you said in 1990,
1 mid-1990, but there were the so-called Young Chetniks in Serbia before
2 the Serbian Chetnik Movement. I know that full well because my own son
3 was the president of those Young Chetniks.
4 Q. On the document before you, which is 65 ter number 7427A, can you
5 see -- can you see what's on the right side -- the left side of the
7 A. It says "Main Board" there, and then there's some signatures.
8 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
9 A. Well, Madam, I didn't take part in these affairs, so I can't
10 really tell you anything about that. All I can do is read out what it
11 says. But other than that, to say that I remember the document, no. And
12 to say what it's all about, I really can't do that. I don't know.
13 MS. BIERSAY: May I ask that a hard copy of this document be
14 given to the witness, please.
15 Q. If you could flip to the very back, the last page.
16 A. Well, my handwriting, but I don't remember this. I really don't
18 Q. But you recognise your handwriting; is that correct?
19 A. Well, yes, but I just can't remember this.
20 Q. Now, you described to the Trial Chamber that the vice-president
21 for Republika Srpska was a Poplasen, and perhaps I'm not pronouncing that
23 A. Yes, I can see here, Nikola Poplasen.
24 Q. And you also described the vice-president at that time for the
1 A. Yes, Radovan Vucevic.
2 Q. At the local level, when we're talking about the coordination of
3 volunteers at the local level, was that coordination done by Serbian
4 Chetnik Movement members?
5 A. At this level, at the level that I was in the party, we had a man
6 in charge of working with the volunteers, and I assisted him. He
7 organised work with them. I helped him out. I thought it was my duty to
8 do so, and also I had the desire to help. And he coordinated work with
9 people who were in charge of the same affairs at party level.
10 Q. What was his official title, if he had one?
11 The person that you're -- do you know someone by the name of
12 Stefan Grubanov [phoen]?
13 A. Stefan Grubanov, yes. Well, he worked through the volunteers,
14 matters related to the volunteers. He had his own office, and --
15 Q. Did he coordinate the volunteers for your area?
16 A. Yes, he did. He dealt with all those matters, and he
17 coordinated, but I assisted as president of the Regional Board and later
18 on as president of the County Board
19 Of course, I didn't make the lists, I didn't do these administrative
20 things, but the serious matters. When I say "serious," I mean when the
21 volunteers had to go to a church and take Holy Communion and pledge that
22 they would fight chivalrously in the eyes of God, that they would not
23 commit evil deeds. And of course when it was necessary to secure some
24 funds from the business community, from the state and so on, I was better
25 placed to do things like that.
1 Q. Now, this coordinator of the volunteers, did he report to you or
2 did he report to the War Staff in Belgrade?
3 A. Well, the War Staff, establishment-wise. But he was a member of
4 the Serbian Radical Party, so that we cooperated intensively, but I
5 wasn't interested nor did I have the duty to deal with all the details.
6 Q. Am I correct in saying that within each local SRS branch, there
7 was a local coordinator who would deal with the volunteers in the
8 capacity like Mr. Grubanov did?
9 A. Well, not every municipality had that, but in the Banat
10 quite sure it did; Pancevo, Zrenjanin, and Kikinda, and that's an area
11 which was the most successful in terms of numbers and in all the other
12 aspects linked to the volunteers' departure to the battle front.
13 And let me also tell you that in Pancevo and everywhere else, we
14 had quite a lot of Hungarian volunteers, there would be a few Romanians,
15 so that the defence both of the Serb people and the desire to defend and
16 protect Yugoslavia
17 all the ethnic groups. We had Hungarians, for example, who laid down
18 their lives, who were killed in Pancevo. We had people who were wounded
19 and injured, and there was a general atmosphere of -- well, a very
20 enviable atmosphere with respect to the work of the Serbian Radical Party
21 and its standing up in defence of the Serb people in those war-infested
23 Q. Let me ask you this: With respect to the Serbian Chetnik
24 Movement, who was at the head of that movement?
25 A. While it was functioning, it was Dr. Vojislav Seselj.
1 Q. And what role, if any, did those people who were given the title
2 vojvodas have within the Serbian Chetnik Movement?
3 A. Some of the vojvodas were linked to the battle front. Others
4 acted politically as members of the Serbian Radical Party.
5 Q. Were you ever a vojvoda?
6 A. No, I never became a vojvoda.
7 Q. And why is that?
8 A. I didn't have any pretensions along those lines, either. Well,
9 that's why. I don't have any pretensions as somebody fighting on the
10 front. I am engaged in other matters.
11 Q. So the vojvodas were the force behind the armed struggle of the
13 A. Well, first of all, it's not correct that the SRS was a combat
14 force. It all functioned in the way in which we've already discussed
15 today. We would send volunteers, but it wasn't the SRS or the Serbian
16 Chetnik Movement that had its own units. They were units within the
17 composition of the legal forces; first of all, the JNA, then later on the
18 Territorial Defence, and later on still the army of Republika Srpska
19 Krajina was formed, and then in Bosnia-Herzegovina the army of the -- of
20 Republika Srpska was formed. And before that -- well, yes, the army of
21 Republika Srpska was formed there straight away, and they had their own
22 Territorial Defence for a short period.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I didn't want to
24 interrupt the witness, but I have an objection to make once the witness
25 finishes what he was saying.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
2 MS. BIERSAY: Mr. Seselj has lost the opportunity to object to
3 the question if it's already been answered.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have the right to object to a
5 question within the frameworks of the general conduct of the Prosecutor.
6 It's not my intention to control how the Prosecutor's going to use her
7 time. It's in my interest if the Prosecutor wastes her time. But it has
8 to be conducted properly, because the Prosecutor has the right to trick
9 questions as well, but he does not have the right to ask questions which
10 will create confusion.
11 MS. BIERSAY: I submit to the Chamber that Mr. Seselj is now
12 giving cues to the witness on how to answer, and it's inappropriate for
13 him to do that.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I waited for the witness to
15 finish his answer.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm trying to
17 understand your objection.
18 Ms. Biersay is putting questions to this witness on vojvodas. He
19 answers that he never was a vojvoda, and now you're taking the floor for
20 something that I don't understand what your point is.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I intentionally
22 waited for the witness to complete his answer so as not to influence his
23 answer. I'm intervening because I consider that any examination must, in
24 principle, be conducted properly and correctly.
25 Ms. Biersay asked whether the Chetnik vojvodas were the basic
1 force in the war, and she knows full well that the first Chetnik vojvodas
2 on my part were proclaimed in May 1993, and the war had been going on for
3 two years already. So that is that improper conduct that permeates her
4 manner of examination, and I object to that.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Ms. Biersay, Mr. Seselj is saying that the vojvodas he appointed
7 were proclaimed in May 1993, and that, therefore, you cannot ask the
8 witness whether the vojvodas played a role previously. He says that they
9 were only proclaimed in 1993.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, according to our
11 procedure in this Tribunal, you can ask questions on this, but during
12 your own cross-examination, and you can ask the witness to give details
13 and specific answers on this and maybe correct what he answered to the
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Ms. Biersay.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something
18 It is not my intention to ask the witness to clarify these
19 matters, because this witness can't know everything, but a document has
20 already been admitted into evidence. It was signed by my hand, about the
21 proclamation of the first Chetnik vojvodas in May 1993, whereas -- so the
22 Prosecutor cannot behave as if there's been none of that, none of those
23 proceedings so far.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I regret, Mr. Seselj, if the
25 witness does not know, during the cross-examination he will just answer
1 one of your questions by saying, "I don't know." But you're not allowed
2 to testify.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Ms. Biersay.
4 MS. BIERSAY: And now if we could please --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] However, I would like to have
6 my position on the transcript regarding this issue.
7 The Court's time, the Bench's time, is very precious. You know
8 that. I had two hours, and in these two hours I put all my questions.
9 The Prosecutor will have one hour and Mr. Seselj will have one hour. So
10 everyone intervening, be it a Judge, the accused or the Prosecutor, must
11 be absolutely sure of his question when he puts it. He must be
12 absolutely sure of the basis of his question, because if he makes a
13 mistake, then there are consequences; raises objections and so forth and
14 so on.
15 So as far as this question of vojvodas, which we have already
16 explored at length with many other witnesses, I believe, Ms. Biersay,
17 that if you have elements that may allow you to say that in 1991, there
18 were -- or 1992, there were vojvodas actually acting on the ground, then
19 do so, but you have to be very specific. You have to be able to back
20 what you say. Otherwise, we're wasting time.
21 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I'd now like to direct your attention to 65 ter number 92, and
23 hopefully you'll be able to read that. And while we're retrieving that,
24 it's an article entitled "The Leader of Zvezda's Delijas Has Joined the
25 Serbian Chetnik Movement," and this was published in 'Velika Srbija,'
1 issued number 2, 1990. And if we could go to the bottom of the B/C/S.
2 Could we go to the next page, please, for the B/C/S. And in the lower
3 corner, lower right-hand corner, if you could enlarge.
4 Q. Actually, do you recognise -- I know it's a grainy picture, but
5 you discussed your son being in one of the -- in one of the groups?
6 A. Yes, my son.
7 Q. Do you recognise him?
8 A. I do. Srdjan, I recognise him.
9 MS. BIERSAY: And if we could please enlarge that box. And I
10 believe the corresponding English would be on page -- there we go.
11 Q. Now, the title of that is "The Vojvoda Dr. Vojislav Seselj's
12 Oath"; is that correct? Is that correct?
13 A. I have never seen this oath, but I have no reason to doubt --
14 doubt it, and it is an oath within the frameworks of the traditions of
15 the Serbian people and the traditions of all those who loved their people
16 and who were ready to die for their people.
17 Q. 'Velika Srbija' is a publication associated with what party?
18 A. Well, that's already been stated. This 'Velika Srbija' is still
19 published, and it's becoming a better and better newspaper. It has a lot
20 of scholarly articles and very -- has been successful, and it's far and
21 above the best paper throwing light on all topical issues and the overall
22 problems that face the Serb nation and the Serb state, and also the world
23 situation, world affairs, and all the rest of it, and men of letters and
24 men of science write for the papers, academicians, university professors,
25 and the like.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
2 At this time, the Prosecution moves for admission of 65 ter
3 number 92, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a
5 number for this exhibit.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. President,
7 I think -- I think my objection is in order. In the previous issue of
8 'Velika Srbija,' the Prosecutor had at its disposal a whole article about
9 my taking the oath of the Serbian Chetnik vojvoda in Libertyville
10 Monastery near Chicago
11 extensive article about all that. And in the next issue, they just
12 repeat the oath. So why doesn't the Prosecutor tender into evidence
13 both, because like this you don't know where the oath was taken, on what
14 occasion, or anything else. It's just something that's been inserted
15 there. And they have all the documents, they have all the back issues of
16 'Velika Srbija,' so why don't they tender both?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We know it now. You just told
18 us where it was done.
19 Let's have a number for this exhibit, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given
21 Exhibit number P687. Thank you, Your Honours.
22 MS. BIERSAY: If I may, Your Honour, inquire as to how much time
23 I have left and when the Court would like to take its next break.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll ask the Registrar,
25 because I don't know.
1 You have 30 minutes.
2 I think it's best to break right now, and we'll resume later on.
3 Is it okay?
4 MS. BIERSAY: Absolutely, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Twenty-minute
7 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
10 Before I ask Ms. Biersay to proceed, Witness, I seek a small
12 You said that you were elected a member of Parliament. I'd like
13 to know this: Were you elected at the level of the Pancevo municipality
14 or were you elected a member of the Parliament in Belgrade?
15 A. I was an MP from 1992 until the end of 1996, but I've been a
16 member of the Municipal Assembly since May this year. And I returned to
17 the Serb Radical Party, rejoined its ranks, in March this year.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are a regional member of
19 Parliament in the Pancevo municipality to date?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am still a member
21 of the Municipal Assembly from the elections that were held in May this
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There may be a problem with the
24 interpretation. What I want to know is this: I want to know whether you
25 are a member of Parliament in Belgrade
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's all I want to know. The
3 rest, you are a local member or elected person, you were elected locally.
4 That's all I wanted to know.
5 Ms. Biersay.
6 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 If we could now have Exhibit P223, please. And just for planning
8 purposes, after that I'll also ask for P227, P217, and P25.
9 Q. Mr. Glamocanin, you'll need your glasses, because I'll be showing
10 you some documents on that computer screen again.
11 A. Very well.
12 Q. So that would be Exhibit P223.
13 Now, isn't it true that the volunteers were deployed as units and
14 not just incorporated into existing JNA units as individuals? And
15 looking at P223, it reads:
16 "On behalf of SRS
17 authorised to coordinate on behalf of the SRS, Podravska Slatina TOS
18 Staff relating to the defence, manpower and other needs. The commander
19 shall be recalled at the intervention of the SRS War Staff from
21 That's what that document says, doesn't it, and it's dated 24
22 October 1991?
23 A. I cannot challenge this document, and I cannot confirm it either,
24 but I think that it is not within the setup and function and nature of
25 our War Staff. As for this Rankic --
1 Q. Did I read it correctly, that document?
2 A. Well, you read it correctly. I mean, I think that it is not in
3 accordance with the nature of the function of the War Staff.
4 As for this Zoran Rankic, I know that he is a man who is a
5 craftsman, and he must have worded this clumsily. He did it just for the
6 sake of doing it. He didn't really give any thought to serious matters.
7 I can claim --
8 Q. Well let me show you another document, Exhibit P227. Now, do you
9 see in this document, number 3, in which there are conditions for
10 providing assistance, and number 3 is: " ... coordination with our unit
11 command." Do you see that on this document dated 16 October 1991 from
13 A. Madam, I can confirm that Mr. Rankic did this clumsily and that
14 this is not in accordance with the powers that he had. I claim with full
15 responsibility that the Serb Radical Party did not have any military
16 units of its own.
17 Now, this Zoran Rankic, as I said, is a semi-literate person, so
18 how he understood his role, that's his problem. And after all I know,
19 that he did not stay on the War Staff for very long. As well as I know
20 him, he is really a man who doesn't understand everything.
21 Q. Let me direct your attention now to P25, Exhibit P25. And this
22 document is dated 9 December 1991
23 commander of Vukovar, Captain Slobodan Katic. And it reads:
24 "The Chetnik commander of Vukovar, Slobodan Katic, is proposing
25 the following warriors for promotion."
1 And one of them listed there is Milan, do you see that one, aka
2 Kameni, commander. Did I read that correctly?
3 A. Well, you read it correctly, but I'm not the right person to put
4 these questions to. I was not at the front. For example, I never met
5 Lancuzanin. Now why they wrote all of this and what this means to them,
6 I'm not really competent in terms of answering that kind of question.
7 I can just confirm that we did not have such information. The Serb
8 Radical Party did not have any units of its own. They sent persons there
9 who were part of the setup of the Serbian army or, rather, the JNA; that
10 is to say, when the composition of the Territorial Defence and later on
11 within the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina, later on the army of
12 Republika Srpska.
13 MS. BIERSAY: If we could now please see Exhibit P217, and this
14 is order number 124, the proclamation of certain vojvodas.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. The interpretation was
16 not right. This is not "naredjenje," this is "naredba." In the Serbian
17 language, "naredba" and "naredjenje" are two completely different legal
18 documents. "Naredjenje," "order," is a military term order, whereas
19 "naredba," "order," is a general legal or political act, but at any rate
20 it is at a lower level than a law.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've already said this,
22 Mr. Seselj.
23 Witness, you are a literate man. What can you say about the term
24 to be used in your own language? Is it a request, a motion, an order?
25 What is it, exactly, in your own language?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Naredba" is a general act or
2 enactment regulating a particular matter. "Naredjenje" cannot be an
3 individual enactment.
4 MS. BIERSAY: If I could direct your attention to number 3 at the
5 bottom of -- in the B/C/S, it will be page 1. In the English, it will be
6 page 2, to the description of Branislav Vakic, second sentence:
7 "He participated in the liberation of Vukovar as --"
8 A. Vakic.
9 Q. You recognise that name?
10 A. The name rings a bell, but I do not know about him being in
12 As for this proclamation of the Chetnik vojvodas, I only watched
13 it on television, like most citizens of Serbia who had occasion to watch
14 this. Otherwise, I did not take part in this and I do not see any
15 problem in that.
16 Q. I understand. Am I reading the last sentence -- the second
17 sentence correctly:
18 "He participated in the liberation of Vukovar as commander of the
19 Leva Supoderica volunteer unit"?
20 And forgive my mangled pronunciation. Am I reading that
22 A. You read it correctly, but I was never at the front-line and I
23 don't know anything --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Ms. Biersay did not
25 read it out right. It says "deputy commander," not "commander." Perhaps
1 the witness was not following it carefully.
2 MS. BIERSAY: In English, the translation is "commander," and I
3 read it as "commander."
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is not the first time
5 that you have a bad English translation.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We know that. Witness, once
7 again, you can read, you can write, you can think. As such, in the
8 Cyrillic text, is it "deputy commander" or "commander."
9 A. "Deputy commander," Mr. President, "deputy commander."
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So "deputy commander." Very
12 Witness, in 1993, some vojvodas were proclaimed. Back then, were
13 you aware of that or was that an initiative that is solely of
14 Mr. Seselj's account, who did not inform the members of the Serbian
15 Radical Party of it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He provided information. We knew
17 that that was happening, but I did not take part in that.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You therefore knew that
19 Mr. Seselj had appointed several vojvodas on account of their records?
20 What is your answer? I asked you a question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
23 continues]... for you. Did you know then that Mr. Seselj had appointed
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did know that the
1 appointment and proclamation of them was being prepared, but I did not
2 take part in that.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I was in charge
5 of organisation and personnel. I did not have the time or was there any
6 need for me to take part in all the activities of the party.
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. Mr. Seselj was a very -- was the highest member of the SRS; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes. Yes, correct, he was president, but the Central Fatherland
11 Administration was above him, and the Assembly of the Party.
12 Q. And with respect to the Serbian Chetnik Movement, he was also at
13 the head of that, as you described to the Trial Chamber previously; is
14 that correct?
15 A. He was at the head, but I lost touch with the Serb Chetnik
16 Movement when the Serb Radical Party started functioning, and I don't
17 know anything about the Serb Chetnik Movement. I'm not even sure that it
18 existed and functioned.
19 You know what? When you're talking about the Serb Chetnik
20 Movement, many people pointed out that they were Chetniks. Even our
21 enemies --
22 Q. Just one moment, please. Before discussing the Serbian Chetnik
23 Movement, my purpose in asking you that was: In his capacity as the
24 functionary head of these two groups, did he meet with other high-level
25 officials from other parties?
1 A. Well, as far as I can remember, Dr. Vojislav Seselj met with the
2 functionaries of other political parties only in the capacity of
3 president of the Serb Radical Party, as far as I know.
4 Q. And as you described in your statement, he met -- he would meet
5 with Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, he did meet with Radovan Karadzic.
7 Q. And did he also meet with Milan Martic, for example?
8 A. Well, when I visited the Knin Krajina in the beginning of 1993,
9 when the battle was being waged at the Medak Pocket, "Medacki Dzep," I
10 met with all the functionaries of the Serb Krajina, but we did not have
11 any special discussion there with regard to some particular units of the
12 Serb Radical Party. We were interested in the position of the Serb
13 people, whether they had food, whether they were able to engage in
14 economic activity. We could not be involved in decision-making
15 concerning their military operations, nor did we have any intention of
16 doing so. We just wanted to help.
17 Q. So is that a "yes," there were meetings between Mr. Seselj and
19 A. Well, I don't know specifically of any particular meeting, but I
20 do believe that there had been meetings. Well, yeah.
21 Q. And also, as you described, Mr. Seselj was also in contact with
22 Radmilo Bogdanovic as well; is that correct?
23 A. Well, with Radmilo Bogdanovic, I was in contact with him too, but
24 these are no contacts that would lead to some special activities.
25 Radmilo Bogdanovic was president of the Chamber of Republics, the Chamber
1 of Republics in the Federal Assembly, and it is only natural that we were
2 in contact, especially Dr. Seselj, who was the president of our deputies
3 club. He was also in contact with Radoman Bozovic, who was also the
4 president of the Chamber of Citizens.
5 MS. BIERSAY: If I may have one minute, Your Honour. And in that
6 time, may I inquire how much time I have left, please.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
8 Fifteen minutes left.
9 MS. BIERSAY:
10 Q. I'd now like to move to the topic of the attempted kidnapping of
11 one of your family members. When did you learn that it, in fact, was not
12 a member of the SRS
13 A. I learnt that on the very same day, because my deputy in this
14 newly-established Deputies Club, called the headquarters of the Serb
15 Radical Party and talked about that problem. I mean, he found out that
16 it wasn't anyone from the Serb Radical Party. And later on, we checked
17 that again, we asked again, and we were told explicitly that
18 Dr. Vojislav Seselj had been informed and that he condemned this kind of
19 thing, and that it had nothing to do with the leadership of the Serb
20 Radical Party. These are some self-styled individuals that existed at
21 the front-line and throughout the former Yugoslavia. Many of them
22 introduced themselves as Chetniks, and they had nothing to do with the
23 Serb Radical Party or with the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party.
24 Q. Let me ask you this: I'd like to turn your attention now to the
25 encounter that you described to the Trial Chamber between you and a
1 member of the OTP, Mr. Saxon.
2 Now, you have a degree in law; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You have been a successful politician in your own right; is that
6 A. I don't consider myself a politician. I consider myself a
7 patriot, and there you go, a man of letters, who writes, who is
8 preoccupied with the fate of his people.
9 Q. And let me now again show you 65 ter number 7427A. That is the
10 document that you previously recognised as being your signature, if you
12 As the Trial Chamber pointed out, the statement that you provided
13 the OTP in 2003, you signed that statement; is that correct?
14 A. 2004, that's when I gave this statement, the end of May. I
15 signed it, it wasn't read out to me, and it was Mr. Paolo Stocchi who
16 conducted this in a very special way. He actually used my statement to
17 the effect that I was very grateful to the Italian nation and that I see
18 him as the nephew of the Italian officer who took me out of an Ustasha's
19 hands when I was one year old, and in that way he prevented that Ustasha
20 from killing me with a bayonet. And on the basis of that, he wrote up
21 whatever he wrote up, and the last day he forced me to sign what he had
22 written up in English. And then he said that I would be called for
23 further interviews. And I was already fed up with those that had taken
24 place until then. He asked me all sorts of things, "Who financed
25 municipal committees," and at one moment I asked him whether he was
1 asking me these questions as a CIA
2 completely going beyond the scope of the judiciary. And he said if I
3 were to cooperate with anyone, I would cooperate with the Italian. And
4 then this other colleague said, "Why not cooperate with the CIA when --"
5 Q. My question is simply this: And I see that you're smiling. My
6 question is whether or not you applied your signature and initials to the
7 pages of the 2003 statement that you gave to the OTP.
8 A. In 2003, I didn't give any statements. It was in 2004, and I
9 did --
10 MS. BIERSAY: Can we please zoom in on the signature of 7427A,
11 please - it's at the bottom - to see if this perhaps refreshes your
12 recollection of the date of that first statement.
13 Q. Are you telling this Trial Chamber that although you're a man of
14 letters and educated in the law, that you signed -- you were forced to
15 sign this? Is that what you'd have this Trial Chamber believe?
16 A. I am telling you how it was that I was forced. As far as I can
17 remember, and I guess I remember well, it was 2004, not 2003.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, objection. Judges, this
19 paper here is not an integral part of the statement of Mr. Glamocanin.
20 Have the Prosecutor show us the statement that Mr. Glamocanin did sign.
21 What he signed here was a sheet of paper, and in his own hand he wrote
22 out some names. This is not a signature below the statement.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's not waste any time. I've
24 already asked questions on this topic. The Prosecution thinks it's
25 necessary to return to the topic. I don't see the point in doing so.
1 But have you signed, in your own language, a statement made in
2 Serbian? Answer by "yes" or "no."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not in Serbian, no, no way.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You signed a statement in
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In English, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thirdly, you signed the
8 document we see in front of us on the 30th of May, 2003?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, how could I
10 challenge my very own signature? But I don't remember this.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you can see there's a
12 signature, there is the date in front of you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see it, but I can't
14 remember. I guess it's a question of age, too, if I can't remember
15 everything. So many things have happened, I really don't know. I am
16 familiar with all these names. We did cooperate.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Biersay.
18 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Previously, you described to the Trial Chamber that Mr. Seselj
20 did not talk about genocide. Did Mr. Seselj talk about the genocide of
21 the Serbian people in his speeches?
22 A. Well, yes, he did. He spoke about the genocide that took place
23 in World War II. Well, the Ustashas killed a million Serbs during the
24 Second World War. And there was genocidal killings of Serbs in 1991,
25 too, in July and August, in Western Slavonia, for instance, and the area
1 of Vukovar. There were such phenomena. They occurred in Gospic, too.
2 And as far as our nation is concerned, it is a terrible -- it's terrible
3 to know that the genocide of World War II is repeating itself.
4 Q. And didn't Mr. Seselj advocate the retaliation for crimes he says
5 were committed against Serbs in World War II?
6 A. Seselj never did that. Seselj claimed and especially stressed
7 that we must not believe the Ustashas and pro-Ustasha forces and
8 pro-Ustasha authorities in Croatia
9 Quite simply, our people were led to churches, incarcerated there, set
10 alight there; they were burnt there. Then they were killed in their
11 masses in the most atrocious ways. And they responded to the new
12 Croatian Ustasha authorities and said, "Well, why are we to blame?" It
13 wasn't a question of why were they to blame or not, but the fact is that
14 they weren't to blame for anything, it's just that they were Serbs and
15 Orthodox. And now this was repeated with the programme and all the
16 various signs and insignia, and the intimations of new Croatian politics
17 of the HDZ led by Franjo Tudjman.
18 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, the Prosecution has no further
19 questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Time is of the essence. Mr. Seselj, maybe you can start your
22 cross-examination, but the Trial Chamber has one thing to tell you
24 You told us, and we thank you for that, that you intend to use a
25 book which has been published and which gave rise to confidential written
1 submissions made by the Prosecution. If you use this book only as far as
2 the SRS
3 that's fine, but the Trial Chamber is prohibiting you from using this
4 book in order to reveal the name of a protected witness. You have to
5 understand that you can only use this book in order to put questions to
6 the witness regarding the SRS
7 but not to reveal names of witnesses. And to avoid controversies, the
8 Trial Chamber is also asking you not to mention the title of this book,
9 because as we already said, this is irrelevant.
10 My fellow Judge would like to add something.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'd like to add, as far as I'm
12 concerned, it's my opinion that I am stating here, that you are not
13 entitled to use the excerpts of this book where you make reference to the
14 witness we have here today, because when you wrote the book, this witness
15 was a protected witness. So the -- so this crime of contempt is being
16 tried by another Trial Chamber, and I believe you cannot use these
17 excerpts for this reason.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madame Lattanzi, I always liked
19 your ability to think logically, but now you have surpassed yourself and
20 you have even put Hagel upside down, stand on his head.
21 This statement of Mr. Glamocanin's was confidential until today.
22 And since Mr. Glamocanin came into the courtroom and said he was
23 testifying publicly, this is no longer confidential, and that relates to
24 all of Mr. Glamocanin's statements. And as I respect your ability to
25 think logically, I do, but I can't accept that. On the one hand, I
1 respect you immensely, and on the other, I have complete resistance to
2 that from the very insides of my being, and then you can stop me from
3 cross-examining, if you like.
4 But what I wanted to say is this: I informed Ms. Biersay that I
5 was going to cross-examine only on the basis of those passages which
6 relate to Mr. Glamocanin, and I said that was from page 68, onwards some
7 20 to 25 pages; but that's not essential, and she has it all.
8 Thirdly, Judges, when two or three months ago I submitted a
9 request to the Trial Chamber to stand up and protect Defence witnesses, I
10 added to that at least 18 witness statements where I said that the
11 Prosecutor was trying to seize them away from me; and they've all been
12 translated into English, my submissions and the attachments. You
13 rejected my submission, but you are aware of the statements. You have
14 them in English. And now I insist that I be allowed to use all the
15 statements which have to do with Mr. Glamocanin, and they are statements
16 which he gave to my associates.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I do not know what
18 is in your book. We did not read it. We only saw the cover page. We do
19 not know what is in the book.
20 It is true that this witness is no longer protected as of today,
21 and therefore what he said or wrote is public. And I note that he has
22 written a great number of books. He's given a great number of
23 interviews. He's a public figure. He's a well-known person.
24 Now, in the book you wrote, I assume you are referring to things
25 that this person might have written or said. It might be useful to say,
1 "Witness Glamocanin said this or that at one point in time," as long as
2 it does not reveal the name of protected witnesses. The position of my
3 fellow Judge is her own opinion. She is raising a legal question. She
4 is of an opinion, and I'm of a different opinion; and since we have no
5 jurisprudence when it comes to the Appeals Chamber regarding this, we are
6 in the dark.
7 In order to bypass this difficulty, if in this book there are
8 excerpts where the witness talked about the SRS, the role you played in
9 Vukovar, you can say, "In the book, I wrote you said this or that. Do
10 you confirm it? Do you maintain it? Yes or no?" This is not going to
11 jeopardise anything. What do you want to say, we'll see as we go. If
12 the Trial Chamber believes that it is jeopardising something, we'll
14 But so far this is a very theoretical debate. I have no idea
15 about the questions you are going to ask, so please proceed and we'll see
16 as we go.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I just wanted to add one thing.
18 My problem is quite different from what Mr. Seselj and the
19 Presiding Judge are saying. It's not the problem of confidentiality, the
20 fact that the protective measures were granted and are no longer there
21 and have been lifted. That's not it.
22 The issue is that it's the book as it is, because if there are
23 some excerpts dealing with this witness are quoted, because this witness
24 was protected when the book was written, this will mean that it must be
25 investigated by another Trial Chamber in order to know whether, having
1 revealed the status of this witness at the time was correct or not, and
2 whether this is contempt, "yes" or "no." So that's a bit of a different
4 That's my opinion.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you understood,
6 Mr. Seselj?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Lattanzi, whether I committed
8 contempt of court or not has nothing to do with these proceedings and the
9 examination of this witness. Apart from the fact whether an accused can
10 be held in contempt of court, that will have to be looked into, and then
11 all the rest of it.
12 But, anyway, this witness gave a statement to my associates, and
13 he gave permission that may be disclosed to the public. When the book
14 was published, this witness received a copy by the author of this book,
15 and he came to speak at the public promotion of this book in the large
16 hall of the trade union building in Belgrade. So he was there publicly.
17 There were 3.000 people there, and he spoke about this book in public.
18 It was a public event.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if I understood you
20 correctly, and we need your help here because we don't know what's in the
21 book, you say this witness made written statements to your associates.
22 There are statements, I guess that they have been certified by the
23 competent court. (redacted)
25 (redacted) And you
1 want to use this book in order to confirm statements made to your
2 associates, but why don't you just use the statement made to the
3 associates instead of going through the book?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I provided you with
5 those statements directly three months ago. I haven't got them now
6 because I threw that paper away. It's easier for me to keep it in one
7 small book rather than having a whole pile of papers to carry around,
8 because I have too much of that already. I don't have to rely on this at
9 all. I'll rely on its contents, and I have almost all the contents in my
11 And you're very well aware of another thing, Judges. Several
12 months ago, when I mentioned the title of this book for the first time
13 and when we moved into private session because of that and redacted the
14 transcript, every subsequent time that I mentioned the book, I said, "I'm
15 not going to say the title of the book," to avoid going into private
16 session, so there's no need for you to caution me on that score.
17 Now, we've only got four minutes left. Is there any sense in me
18 starting my cross-examination with just four minutes? I was quite ready
19 to cross-examine if I had 10 or 20 minutes, but is there really any sense
20 in me starting when there's just four minutes?
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's best you begin
22 your cross-examination tomorrow.
23 The Trial Chamber will allow you to refer to the statements, but
24 you are not to give the title of the book. I believe you agree on this.
25 You can say, "In the statement in this book, Witness, you said this or
1 that. Please explain." All three Judges agree on this procedure.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you see how much I
3 respect those decisions of yours. And when I intimated to Ms. Biersay
4 that I would be using the book, I didn't even give the title then. I
5 just said, "I'll use this nice book," [In English] "I'll use this
6 beautiful book." [Interpretation] Those were my words when I informed
7 her. I didn't want to state the title then to avoid Ms. Dahl hearing who
8 was present there. So you see how scrupulous I am.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's Trial Chamber is noting
10 that your English has greatly improved, and this will help us move
12 Mr. Seselj, we will resume tomorrow at 8.30. You will have one
13 hour, and I hope everything will run according to plan. Afterwards,
14 Judges might have some additional questions. I don't know yet. My
15 fellow Judge is already hinting at questions that he might have -- that
16 he will have. Then we'll finish with this witness, and then we have
17 another witness scheduled, 92 ter witness. So that's the programme for
19 Witness, you are under oath at the moment, since you made the
20 solemn declaration. You are not entitled to contact anyone from the OTP
21 or to have contact with Mr. Seselj, but that would be quite difficult for
22 you. Please avoid contacting the press also. If a reporter calls you to
23 ask you what your impressions are so far, just tell him that you will go
24 public later, after tomorrow, because as of now you're still in the hands
25 of justice. And you are a lawyer, so you know exactly what I am talking
2 That's it. We will meet again tomorrow at 8.30 a.m. Let's
3 adjourn. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of
6 December, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.