1 Wednesday, 28 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number
8 IT-03-67-T. The Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar. This is
10 public open session and in open session I would like to welcome everyone
11 in this courtroom, now to be the representatives of the OTP. I also
12 welcome Mr. Seselj and our new legal officer who just started, and who is
13 in this courtroom for the first time.
14 I also welcome our Registrar, our usher, and our court reporter,
15 as well as the interpreters helping us.
16 Before giving the floor to Mr. Seselj who has three matters to
17 raise, I would like to tell him right away the following: Last week
18 there was no hearing, the Trial Chamber believed that the two witnesses
19 that were scheduled to be withdrawn, and the Trial Chamber made a
20 Scheduling Order requesting the OTP to give the schedule for five
21 witnesses and the schedule has been circulated to each and every one. I
22 believe that you have obtained it also, Mr. Seselj.
23 The Trial Chamber will rule after having received your written
24 submissions as to the request made by the OTP to stay the proceedings,
25 the Trial Chamber is asking you, Mr. Seselj, to send us your written
1 submissions as fast as possible so that the Trial Chamber can make its
2 decision in light of the OTP's written submissions as well as your own
4 This is a very important topic, and we need to render a written
5 decision on this. I believe that this will be a crucial decision.
6 So, Mr. Seselj, we are waiting for your written submissions in
7 this respect because you are the first one involved here. Now, maybe
8 this is what you wanted to talk about, so I will give you the floor.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, first of all I'd like to say
10 something that I hadn't planned to say with respect to what you've just
11 said, Mr. President. And I'll make your job easier straightaway. I'm
12 not going to tender any written submission. I'm absolutely astounded --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I believe that
14 there is a problem, I do not have French interpretation. I did not
15 receive French interpretation. There may be a problem with the channels.
16 French is on 5 normally. Could French interpreters please talk on the
17 French channel, on channel 5. Very well, they were -- they are in the
18 Albanian booth, actually, so everything is fine.
19 Mr. Seselj, you can go ahead.
11 Pages 13607-13608 redacted.
7 [Private Session]
11 Pages 13610-13620 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Given the fact that for a full four
19 months, I have not been able to have normal cooperation a my legal
20 advisors given the fact that this is how I've been preparing in order to
21 appropriately conduct the cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses,
22 especially those enjoying protective measures, I have no choice but to
23 use documents submitted to me by the OTP. Again, I must tell you this,
24 the Prosecutor has not been particularly conscientious with this, and
25 they have not been keeping up with their documents and with their
1 disclosure obligations. There is a witness who is bound to appear in the
2 courtroom. Their duty is to forward to me all the transcripts of all the
3 evidence provided by that witness in previous trials. In this case the
4 witness testified in the single trial, the Milosevic trial, the
5 transcript was submitted to me based on a book published by Natasa Kandic
6 in Belgrade. The parts of his evidence given in closed session are
7 missing. And then the Prosecutor submits to me these closed session
8 transcripts on the 18th of March last year. A total of 20 pages of the
9 record. I have them in front me as we speak as a matter of fact.
10 Now I've been comparing them to the open session transcript, and
11 I have just reached the conclusion that there are pages missing over the
12 weekend. Between 18656 and 18662, six pages missing. So we have 18, the
13 first two digits always, and then 663 to 665 missing again. 684 to 691,
14 missing. 694 to 695, missing. There, anyone can have a look for
15 themselves, anyone can have a look at what I got from the Prosecutor and
16 can see for themselves what exactly is missing.
17 Next thing, tomorrow the witness is about to appear --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. I will try and
19 settle this problem. I'm a little bit surprised by what you are saying,
20 Mr. Seselj. If the Prosecution discloses to Mr. Seselj a transcript of
21 what the witness may have said in another trial, in that case, you are
22 given all the pages on the transcript. How can pages be missing?
23 Mr. Mundis, I find it difficult to understand this. Mr. Mussemeyer also.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just give us a few moments if you
25 would. My case manager is diligently checking our records to determine
1 what exactly is disclosed, and if, in fact, there is a gap in any of the
2 page numbers. But it might take her a few moments to run through all
3 those page ranges.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
6 interpretation of what Mr. Mundis said.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me translate what he has
8 just said, he just said that they are currently checking with their case
9 manager what documents have actually been disclosed to you. You will be
10 told very shortly.
11 What is the second point?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now for something that I find
13 exceptionally important in relation to tomorrow's witness. I think he is
14 not a protective witness, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't about to
15 mention his name anyway. Names don't matter to me. You know full well
16 that I challenge the fact that volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party
17 would have been sent to Samac. However, some members of the Serbian
18 Radical Party were involved in the fighting in Samac, that much is true.
19 And they were involved in the units of the JNA. Among them
20 Srecko Radovanovic who had undergone special training because he had an
21 outstanding record in Slavonia as a volunteer. So he arrived with a unit
22 that was part of the 17th tactical group. They arrived in Samac. Now,
23 the Prosecutor had an obligation to submit to me the evidence of Slavko
24 [indiscernible] in his capacity as a suspect. They submitted this to me
25 on the 8th of July, 2008, which is the first day of the interview the
1 17th of January 2003. I had not previously had an opportunity to go
2 through this. I only have now in preparation for this testimony. I see
3 that the next day is missing of the interview. I have 52 pages in
4 relation to day one of the interview, and I see that this continues on
5 the following day, but I have nothing on the following day. I've gone
6 through all the documents, and I haven't found this yet, perhaps it was
7 disclosed to me later on. So they should speak up and say whether they
8 have, in fact, disclosed this or not, but I don't have it. And I believe
9 they were under obligation to disclose this to me in its entirety. Quite
10 aside from the fact that the Aleksandar Vasiljevic interview hasn't been
11 disclose today me yet, Certain portions. Jovika Panic [phoen], same
12 thing. All day at the beginning of last year, you told them explicitly
13 to do just that and to comply. And now to top it all off on the 2nd of
14 June, 2008, I received confirmation from the OTP that they were
15 disclosing to me the statement of Srecko Radovanovic dated the 26th of
16 November, 2002. Needless to say, I put this away in a certain folder, a
17 folder about Srecko Radovanovic. And I don't read immediately everything
18 I get from the OTP, but just as I see fit. Now, I'm preparing for
19 tomorrow's witness, I pick up this document, and I realise that in the
20 attachment what I find is not Srecko Radovanovic's statement. Now, we
21 don't even know whether Srecko Radovanovic gave a statement like that
22 because what I find in my attachment is a statement of
23 Srecko Borisavljevic, a JNA officer, a totally different person. Here
24 you can have it, your own expert can have a look and see this was stapled
25 together. No interventions were made, no one even touched this. So
1 instead of Srecko Radovanovic's statement dated the 2nd of June, 2008,
2 what I get is Srecko Borisavljevic's statement. Am I suppose prepare for
3 a trial like this?
4 On the other hand, you take away my ability to prepare with the
5 assistance of my legal advisors, when I would not need any documents at
6 all. I'm now deprived of the assistance of my legal advisors, and on top
7 of that being hampered by the OTP in preparing for trial by using methods
8 such as the one that I've just specified.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it seems that as
10 far as tomorrow's witness is concerned VS-1010, that interviews are
12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as was the case with respect to the
13 previously mentioned material. Our case manager is checking that, and we
14 can certainly be in a position to update the Chamber and Mr. Seselj
15 certainly during the course of this morning.
16 I do want to put on the record, however, while I'm on my feet
17 that the repeated statements by the accused that is his ability to
18 represent himself is hindered, is not in our respectful view a truthful
19 statement. And, of course, there are motions pending before this Chamber
20 to alleviate this situation. But it is our view that having had access
21 to his associate Mr. Aleksic that the accused should not be continuing to
22 indicate that his ability to represent himself is hindered. We do want
23 to put that on the record.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, basically you were
25 saying that it is difficult for you to self-represent yourself, and you
1 have brought this on to yourself, so the Prosecutor has got up and said
2 that that is the best evidence, that you should be assigned a counsel.
3 Let's backtrack a little bit. A few minutes ago, you said you found it
4 difficult. What prevented you from telephoning Mr. Aleksic and telling
5 him, Well, during the week we have such and such a witness that is going
6 to come and testify. Can you do what is asked of you? In other words,
7 look up such and such an item. And then all the people working for you
8 will get to work and make sure that Mr. Aleksic sends you the answers you
9 have requested in due time. And you have said, No, you are not doing
10 this because there is an obstruction to your Defence according to what
11 you are saying. This is not -- your conversations are not tapped. You
12 can say to him well, Witness 1010 is coming to testify. You give this
13 gentleman your instructions, and then he gets to work. But you are
14 saying I'm not doing this, so the Prosecution gets on his feet and says,
15 Well, make sure that he has a counsel, and then the counsel will do --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I never said I was
17 unable to defend myself. But rather, that the Prosecution was keeping me
18 from defending myself and deliberately obstructing me and hindering me.
19 I have led evidence to that effect. I'm able to defend myself even if
20 the OTP never submit another document to me ever again. Even without a
21 single associate ever in Belgrade. I'll still be able to defends myself,
22 and I still remain far superior to a ten-man Prosecutor team. Far
23 superior. But my Defence will not have the sort of quality that I would
24 find desirable. What should I do with Boris Aleksic for example? He is
25 not up to date. Some days ago his wife gave birth to is a child. The
1 only thing I can do is use a landline to call him, which means call him
2 at his flat. His wife is still frail. She has just given birth. And I
3 am now call him. And yet he is helpless without Zoran Krasic. You, the
4 Trial Chamber, banned me from forwarding any sort of confidential
5 information at all to Zoran Krasic. If I am now banned from forwarding
6 confidential information directly to Zoran Krasic, what does that mean?
7 I could do it through Boris Aleksic. Perhaps I should call him up. I
8 should dictate a statement to him, he could tape-record it, and hand it
9 over to Zoran Krasic. Would that be fair and in keeping with the rules?
10 If that is a fair course of action, if that is a way for me to circumvent
11 your decision without causing any further consequences, well, perhaps I
12 could that I can at that course. But Zoran Krasic, he is the only person
13 who is privy to everything. And he really understands and knows the ins
14 and outs of everything single thing. He has it all in his computer. How
15 can I get any serious work done without him? Come on.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as far as this
17 particular point is concerned, you are partially right, but I shall ask
18 the Registrar to move into closed session please.
19 Registrar, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 13628-13633 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a brief objection. I think
16 that the witness should be asked whether he wishes to continue with
17 protective measures or perhaps he is ready now to testify in public? I
18 think there's no concern.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness -- let's move back to
20 private session, first.
21 Mr. Registrar, please.
22 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
8 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, just for the record, the witness
9 testimony Milosevic has been admitted in the Krajisnik case under
10 Rule 92(D), just to inform Your Honour and the Judges.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS VS-1035
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:
14 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please let us know where you are from and
15 where you went to school.
16 A. I'm from the environs in Bijeljina; that's where I was born. I
17 went to school in my native (redacted). I then went to
18 secondary school in Bijeljina, and I lived in Bijeljina until the
19 outbreak of the conflict in 1992.
20 Q. What did you do after you finished your school?
21 A. After I finished secondary school, I did my military service in
22 Slovenia and having done my military service, I went to Sarajevo to the
23 school for Internal Affairs, and I trained as a policeman, to become a
25 Q. When you finished your training, what was your first duty
2 A. My first duty station was the police station in Bijeljina. Yes,
3 the police station in Bijeljina.
4 Q. I now intend to go to the years 1991. Mr. Witness, can you tell
5 us if there was a kind of rising tensions between the different
6 ethnicities in your region?
7 A. Well, directly in the area in which I lived somewhat less, but in
8 the Republic of Croatia and around Bosnia, it was evident that there was
9 tension between the different groups of different ethnicities.
10 Q. Do you remember when this was?
11 A. In 1991, the end of the summer, beginning of autumn.
12 Q. What were the facts from which you concluded that there was
13 raising tensions? Could you describe this.
14 A. At that time I was coming back from my holidays, and I had spent
15 my holiday around Zadar and Split. And while I was travelling back from
16 Split in the direction of Bihac, I would come across -- I would go across
17 Croatian territory where there had already been the erection of
18 barricades, barricades had already been erected and meetings by the
19 national groups had already been organised, rallies. And a few days
20 later a conflict broke out in that part of former Yugoslavia.
21 Q. Do you know who erected these barricades?
22 A. In the area that I passed through, it was mostly areas inhabited
23 by the Serbs.
24 Q. Did you realise kind of, let's call it nationalistic rallies.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, I appreciate your attempts to get
1 to the point, but please don't try and lead the witness.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's not my intention to lead the witness, but
3 these are points which are not crucial for the accused, and I want to go
4 quickly through. So I ask the witness if he can answer my last question.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, if you are
6 asking -- if you are putting the question to him by saying, Do these
7 rallies have a nationalist connotation, I believe that you are very
8 leading there, but move on.
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like the witness to answer this
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that area of the Republic of
12 Croatia, these nationalistic meetings or rallies were organised, and I
13 can state now that they were organised by, I think the Serb party or some
14 Serb party in that region inhabited predominantly by a Serb population.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
16 Q. Have there also been discussions or debates between your police
18 A. Well, after those events there was a division among us too, who
19 was for, who was against, who was right, who was wrong, so you could
20 foresee that it would happen among our ranks very quickly, a division
21 between us colleagues.
22 Q. Where did these -- or where did you observe or hear these
23 discussions? Was it in a group? Or was it in a different place?
24 A. Well, it began first of all along the channels that we used for
25 communication in the police force. That is to say, you could hear
1 discussions between colleagues in the neighbouring republic, the Republic
2 of Croatia, so that we followed those conversations, and automatically,
3 where we were, you could notice a division among us because our
4 colleagues who were Serbs, our Serb colleagues who until recently --
5 well, the paperers that were published in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnian
6 papers, automatically were being read -- well, they read newspapers from
7 Belgrade, and they didn't read the Bosnian or Croatia papers. They
8 refused to read them, but only read papers from Belgrade.
9 Q. Did police officers from Muslim origin also participate in these
10 discussions? Do you remember this?
11 A. No, no. I remember very well, as far as I know from where I
12 worked, we didn't interfere -- well, we didn't interfere, colleagues
13 didn't interfere from other ethnicities except for one outbreak when a
14 channel was opened, one station had their communication channel open, and
15 you could hear two colleagues discussing these matters. And they were
16 Serbs by ethnicity.
17 Q. Do you remember a special event when the situation deteriorated
19 A. At that time a conflict broke out, well, there was a clash, not a
20 major one, large scale, but anyway, a clash in the villages between the
21 Bratunac municipality or the surrounding parts of Bratunac. Well, in
22 actual fact a Muslim man was killed. He was shot at in a car, and after
23 that incident there was great discord and unrest between the two ethnic
24 group, the Muslims and the Serbs. They were opposite each other. So we
25 had to be sent to that region afterwards, we were sent there to separate
1 the two sides, or the two villages, or actually, it was a number of
2 villages, but villages with different ethnic groups living in them.
3 Q. How would you describe the situation between the different
4 ethnicities at that time?
5 A. Well, at that time in that area, the area to which we were sent,
6 you had the Serbs and the Muslims, and they lived opposite each other.
7 For example, they were just divided by the road, and I can say that they
8 were armed so that every time we were sent there, if we got close to one
9 side or the other side, we had to change our names. If you are -- if you
10 were going to Serb village, then you would have a Serb name. If you went
11 to a Muslim village, you would take on a Muslim name, so that they
12 weren't able to see which ethnicity we belonged to, but this was a little
13 difficult to keep up because we were in between two fires, if I can put
14 it that way.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are saying something
16 important here. There's an incident, a Muslim is killed, the police
17 forces and you were part of them, go and try to separate the two sides.
18 But you are adding -- they were armed. So why is it that at the time the
19 authorities didn't decide to just arrest the perpetrators of this murder
20 and ask everyone to surrender their arms, maybe sending in the army to
21 try to restore law and order? Why wasn't this done? When there's a fire
22 being lit, you try to put it out immediately. You know, if you don't put
23 it out quickly, everything burns. So why wasn't anything done to restore
24 law and order?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why nothing was done? Well, I
1 can't really say now. First of all, we didn't receive any orders to that
2 effect to intervene at all in any one of those villages. And all the
3 population there was armed. Now, who they got their weapons from, I
4 can't say, but there was no order from our superior command telling us to
5 intervene. If we were to come across people who were armed that way and
6 to disarm them, so we had no possibility of doing that.
7 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember a conversation you overheard over
9 the police radio between two Serb police officers? And what were they
10 telling about?
11 A. Well, those two colleagues were talking. Whether intentionally
12 or not, they left the channel open, their communication line was open so
13 that we could hear them, and the entire region used those communication
14 channels. Anyway, they were discussing the situation in Croatia and what
15 was happening in Croatia to the Serbs and to the Croats, and they said
16 that Croats and Muslims in Bosnia would suffer the same fate, that the
17 same thing would happen there, what happened in Bosnia would happen in
19 Q. Did this conversation have any consequences for the two police
21 A. As far as I know, it did not. Although, you could clearly see
22 which wavelengths were used for the conversations, but as far as I know
23 there were no consequences. They weren't punished because of it, and it
24 was all hushed up just as if nothing had happened.
25 Q. Did you yourself experience problems at your work for the fact
1 that you were of Muslim ethnicity?
2 A. Well, there were problems, mostly in -- if you were punishing
3 somebody of a different ethnicity, Serb, for instance. Or if you had any
4 contacts, if you happened to stop a person who was in the reserve force
5 of the army or was a member of the army, well, then, they would abuse
6 you, tell you you couldn't do anything, you couldn't punish them in any
7 way, and they said that you were just trying to punish them because they
8 were Serbs. So problems of that kind occurred.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, what about your
10 superiors? Were they of all ethnical background, or were they of a
11 single ethnicity?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From various ethnicities, but
13 mostly the commander would be one ethnicity, the deputy would be another,
14 and so on. It was always a mixed composition until 1992.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It's a bit surprising. In
16 Yugoslavia at that time, it was quite normal for the police to see
17 civilians with weapons? That was quite normal at the time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If we were to undertake
19 anything, if we were to do anything, well, if you happened to come across
20 some weapons in somebody's car or somebody having weapons on them without
21 the documents required, then the weapons that we would seize would be
22 returned to that same person one or two days later because, and I
23 remember this very well, with a colleague of mine -- well, a colleague of
24 mine confiscated a weapon from somebody who was going to Serbia via
25 Croatia and when searching his car, they found a pistol and a hunting
1 rifle and a knife, and he didn't have permits for those weapons. But
2 when we seized those weapons, two days later, all this was returned to
3 him because they got permits from somewhere. They came in with a permit
4 from somewhere.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
7 Q. Mr. Witness, did you always work at Bijeljina, or were you also
8 sent to other locations in Bosnia?
9 A. Mostly in Bijeljina, but from time to time when the need arose,
10 they could send us to anywhere in the former Yugoslavia. So it didn't
11 matter whether you wanted to or not, that was the law governing Internal
12 Affairs. For example, the federal SUP or the republican SUP could say, I
13 need five men from Bijeljina today to go somewhere else. So I was sent
14 to Bratunac, for example, and then afterwards to Bosanski Samac.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to come back
16 to these weapons. Either, you know, inhabitants have their fighting --
17 or their hunting rifle, Okay, this is understandable. In the countryside
18 people usually have hunting rifles, or on the other hand, they have war
19 weapons. And if that's the case, how did they get them? Because you
20 seem to say that some organisations provided them with weapons, Muslims,
21 Serbs, or Croats. So were there really organisations who provided
22 weapons to all these people? I mean, you know, an assault rifle is
23 expensive. If someone has a weapon, either he was given the weapon or he
24 bought this weapon. Could you tell us what was the case.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends on the type of the
1 weapon. The weapons that were prohibited were automatic weapons mostly.
2 You could purchase hunting rifles yourself, but only if you had the
3 necessary documents when going to buy one, whereas the other kind of
4 weapons were not accessible to the civilian population, the automatic
5 weapons and so on. And I can tell you, as far as I know, that the
6 population, the Serb population, would receive weapons from the JNA.
7 Whether it was directly from the JNA or the Territorial Defence, the TO,
8 whereas the Muslim population, well, allegedly, I heard that they
9 purchased the weapons. Now, where they bought them from, I really don't
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
12 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember if you have been sent to another
13 location by the end of February or beginning of March 1992, and if so,
15 A. To Bosanski Samac, to secure the bridge in Bosanski Samac in
16 actual fact.
17 Q. Can you tell us how was the relationship between Serbs, Croats,
18 and Muslims there, at Bosanski Samac?
19 A. Well, I can tell you that all these groups were already divided,
20 each group for themselves, and then passing through the villages in that
21 area, inhabited by different ethnicities, each village would have a
22 check-point set up by the locals of the village. So we had to pass
23 through these checkpoints that were manned by the locals. It wasn't the
24 soldiers, they were the locals, but they were armed.
25 Q. Was it possible for you to go into a Serb village?
1 A. No, no, not into the villages, but to pass by the villages, I was
2 allowed to do that. I could do that.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Starting from this, it seems
4 that there's no more law and order, it's anarchy. If police is no longer
5 allowed to enter into a Serb village, there must be a real problem then.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. At the time if somebody
7 had a rifle in their hands, they had greater power than the police. And
8 to stand up to someone like that, you just cause greater conflicts. So
9 we didn't dare react to things like that at all.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
12 Q. Can you please tell us what kind of caps your police officers
13 were wearing?
14 A. In Bosanski Samac, we were there, well, to prevent any more
15 conflicts. And mostly we had ordinarily caps, knitted caps, just to keep
16 you from the cold. Whereas our Serb colleagues refused to wear caps like
17 that, and they wore the Tito-type of cap with the five-pointed star. The
18 normal police caps that were standard issue at that time.
19 Q. What emblem did you have on your cap?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know why the Serb officers were wearing the cap with the
22 five-pointed star?
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Mussemeyer. The witness's answer
24 to your question of which emblem they wore on their cap was not recorded.
25 Could you put the question to him again, the answer well recorded. Thank
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
3 Q. Mr. Witness, which kind -- do you know why the Serb colleagues
4 were wearing the cap with the five-pointed star?
5 A. Well, mostly to provoke the Croatian side. The colleagues from
6 the Republic of Croatia who were stationed halfway up the bridge. Well,
7 we were at the one end of the bridge, and they were halfway across the
8 bridge in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I would like to go now to the
10 events in Bijeljina. I think it's a good.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry. I still did not understand which emblems
12 they wore themselves.
13 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
14 Q. I understood that they didn't wear any emblem, but it's up to the
15 witness to explain us again of what kind of emblems did you have on your
17 THE WITNESS: None.
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I think it would be a good time for a break.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
23 I would like to welcome Mrs. Dahl who has just joined us. I shall give
24 the floor back to Mr. Mussemeyer, now.
25 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
1 Q. Mr. Witness, before the break we were talking about Bosanski
2 Samac, that you had been ordered to go there. Now, I would like to come
3 to the events in Bijeljina. Can you tell us, how did you become aware of
4 problems in Bijeljina?
5 A. While I was at work, while I was doing my job in Bosanski Samac,
6 I saw that some conflict had broken out in Bijeljina on television, and
7 that evening the commander, the chief of the police station in Bijeljina,
8 called us and said that my colleague and I should return to Bijeljina.
9 Q. Did you do this and did you find any problems while returning to
11 A. The next day there was a car that was placed at our disposal, and
12 a colleague who worked there was supposed to transport us in the car, and
13 when we returned to Bijeljina -- well, from Brcko to Bijeljina, on that
14 stretch of the road, we came across a number of barricades that had been
15 erected along the road and we were stopped and checked each time.
16 Q. Who had erected these barricades, and who stopped you?
17 A. The population of those villages, the Serbs.
18 Q. Do you remember how many barricades you had to go through?
19 A. I think about 17 barricades up to the entrance to Bijeljina
21 Q. And you finally arrived to Bijeljina, did you find any problems
22 at the outskirts of Bijeljina or could you directly go into Bijeljina?
23 A. At the last barricade at the entrance to Bijeljina, or just
24 before you enter Bijeljina, we were stopped by a number of people at the
25 barricade, and they checked us, and after that a car had to come from our
1 own police station to drive us to the police station itself escorted by
2 them. They wouldn't let us go on our own.
3 Q. Who were they? Were they soldiers, and if so, from which unit?
4 A. The regular -- no, no, they weren't regular soldiers. They were
5 the reservists of the JNA. And the civilian population which lived
7 Q. Do you remember what one of these reservists asked your Serb
8 colleague who was driving you?
9 A. He asked me why he was driving me, and after that they had to
10 send a car for us from the station to escort me, not him, for security
11 reasons. And all he said was that we had been given instructions from
12 the commander that we should be in -- well, we were in Samac and our
13 commander, the chief of police, told us to go back to the station
15 Q. What do you think why he was asking this, your Serb colleague?
16 A. Because he knew that I was a Muslim.
17 Q. When you entered the town, what did you see and realise?
18 A. When I entered the town, I noticed that there was a large number
19 of soldiers in the town already of para-military units wearing all sorts
20 of different uniforms. And one could notice that there had been clashes.
21 It wasn't before later on that I realised what exactly had occurred, once
22 I had reached the station already.
23 Q. Did you realise kind of obstacles on the streets in Bijeljina,
24 and if so, please describe it to us?
25 A. In several places that I passed there were barricades, obstacles,
1 cars and trucks parked across the road. I don't know who put them there,
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, could you just clear with the
4 witness exactly when it was he entered the town.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I wanted to clarify it, but I can do it now.
6 Q. Do you remember the approximate date when you were going back to
7 Bijeljina and entered the town?
8 A. The day after the clashes broke out, on or about the 1st of
9 April. That's when I arrived. 1992.
10 Q. When you returned to the police station, did you have to sign
11 some documents expressing your loyalty?
12 A. Yes. We were made to sign -- I don't know exactly, but a
13 document of loyalty to the Serbian SUP, S-U-P . I think it was called --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, while the witness is
15 thinking about what exactly it was that he signed, I believe there's a
16 need for the Trial Chamber to intervene regarding the leading questions
17 by Mr. Mussemeyer. There was no there is no oath, that is obvious if we
18 look at any of the witness's statements. He signed an agreement to the
19 effect that he would be serving with the police of Republika Srpska.
20 Mr. Mussemeyer is deliberately driving the witness to say that this was
21 an oath. Notwithstanding the fact that the witness himself is setting
22 the record straight.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe it's
24 on page 43, lines 7 and 8 where you say, you mention loyalty. I don't
25 see to what extent this could be leading.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I don't understand this. I was not talking
2 about an oath. I was explicitly using the word "signing" the document of
3 loyalty and was not talking about oath. So I don't understand where this
4 should lead or be leading.
5 Q. Mr. Witness, can you --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was the
7 interpretation both the witness and I got, an oath, and then the witness
8 set the Prosecutor straight by saying this was no oath. So we might be
9 talking at cross purposes, talking to Mr. Mussemeyer and the interpreter
10 at the same time. Perhaps the Trial Chamber should say who exactly we
11 should be listening to, the interpreter or Mr. Mussemeyer.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor put a question
13 on a document about loyalty. He didn't mention an oath, and it is the
14 accused who mentions an oath. This is how I see things.
15 Irrespective of this, Witness, Mr. Seselj has just said something
16 which you need to clarify. Mr. Seselj has said that you signed an
17 agreement with the police of the Republika Srpska. What does this mean
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true. This was an agreement
20 that I signed about loyalty to the SUP, S-U-P, of Republika Srpska. I
21 think it was called the Centre of the SAO Semberija, Majevica Services, I
22 think that's what it was called, but it was about signing one's loyalty
23 to, for example, the SUP of Republika Srpska because it wasn't Republika
24 Srpska at the time, it was the Serbian MUP, M-U-P, at the time.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you were a
1 civil servant in the police of what country?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The republican SUP of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at the moment the republican SUP no longer got
4 any respect among the Serbs, and there were no communications between the
5 republican SUP and, for example, the Bijeljina station.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment I would like the
7 interpreters to be extremely careful. There is a mistake here. The
8 witness said I was working for the SUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on page
9 44, line 24, it is said the SUP of the Republika Srpska. That's not what
10 he said. So please repeat.
11 I'm asking you this question, at that time you were a civil
12 servant working for the police. For which country were you working.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Republican SUP of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina up until that point in time.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, we have it, I must just
16 check that it is properly recorded on the transcript. And now you are
17 being asked to sign an agreement with the SUP of the Republika Srpska.
18 What did this mean? That Bosnia-Herzegovina did no longer exist, that
19 there was a new republic, what did all of this mean exactly?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that at the time there
21 was a division within the republican SUP or in the whole of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The ethnic Serbs seceded from the others. We were
23 not the first police station to do this, there had been other divisions
24 before. A Serbian SUP or something like that was set up, or a SUP of
25 Republika Srpska, but I don't think it was Republika Srpska. Therefore
1 at the time we had the centre of security services, SAO Semberija, and
2 Majevica and we signed our loyalty to that centre, because in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina all the SUPs were subject to security centres.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we need to go more
5 slowly. This legal concept can be very important and have consequences.
6 First of all, you talked about the SUP of the Republika Srpska. Now you
7 are saying something different. You are saying that you were part of the
8 SUP of the SAO and then you said something else, so please clarify this
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked at the Bijeljina public
11 security station, used to. Then it was the security services centre
12 Tuzla that was in charge of us. And then when the clashes broke out in
13 1992 and whatever happened in Bijeljina, the Bijeljina security station
14 seceded and a new security services centre was established. SAO
15 Semberija, and Majevica.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all the other
17 microphones be switched off while the witness is speaking, please,
18 because the interpreters can't hear the witness. Thank you.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, were there
20 Muslim police stations that were staffed by Muslims and were there police
21 stations that were staffed by Croatians?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in my area.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An objection, just to make this
24 easier. The witness is talking about what he was supposed to do
25 following the clashes in Bijeljina once the Muslim forces had been
1 defeated and had already withdrawn from Bijeljina. Therefore, Bijeljina
2 now remains in the hands of the Serb forces. And then he signs his
3 loyalty in order to keep working with the police.
4 It's not very likely that was SAO Semberija, and Majevica,
5 because Republika Srpska already existed. SAO Semberija, and Majevica
6 had been set up the previous year, 1991. In April 1992 Republika Srpska
7 very much existed already. Therefore it's much likelier that he signed
8 his loyalty in order to keep on working with the police of Republika
9 Srpska. However, the Prosecutor would have encountered no problems in
10 making sure the document was available for us and this is no secret at
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you agree with the
13 fact that you signed a document in order to work for the SAO?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Seselj adds that this
16 SAO existed prior to that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't agree. All right.
19 Not officially. But did it exist de facto?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I knew of.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It was important to
22 clarify this.
23 Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, what was your task when you were back to the police
1 station? Did you get a specific task?
2 A. Yes, the first day we got an order, all of us, to not leave the
3 station. It wasn't before day two, I think, that I got an order from my
4 boss that I should go into town.
5 Q. What were you expected to do there?
6 A. I and my colleague who came with me were expected to escort or
7 secure persons who were picking up the bodies of dead civilians and
8 soldiers. Those who were killed on the streets of Bijeljina.
9 Q. What was your task during this, let's call it exercise?
10 A. Securing the two persons who drove the two hearses and also
11 remaining in touch with the station because we were receiving from the
12 duty officer at the station all the locations that we were to go to.
13 Q. Did you perform this work without being harassed?
14 A. No, not quite that simple. There were many soldiers and
15 paramilitaries, to put it that way, around town. People who stopped us,
16 checked us, let us go. There were some disarming going on later on. All
17 sorts of things happening over the two days that I spent there.
18 Q. Do you know to which units these paramilitaries belonged to?
19 A. Oh, well, Arkan's army, for example, the JNA reservists, and some
20 people organised by Mirko Blagojevic, volunteers. A mixed bag.
21 Q. What did these paramilitaries tell you what was going on in
23 A. They were saying that these people had been killed as a result of
24 war, although there had been no war at all.
25 Q. Did you -- please explain us why there was no war, according to
2 A. Well, the word "war" implies large scale clashes. The use of all
3 sorts of weaponry such as shelling, bombing, and so on and so forth. As
4 far as I could notice, small arms and light weapons were used for the
5 killing of those people. Automatic rifles at best, I think. Sometimes
6 the occasional Zolja, and there was no major damage resulting from those
8 Q. Do you remember how many bodies you helped collecting in these
10 A. As far as I remember, there were about 48 bodies that I collected.
11 I can also say that there were a lot more, but there were some bodies
12 that I was supposed to collect, that had been collected by their families
13 before I got there and were buried secretly in the cemetery.
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you Mr. Witness.
15 Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document under 65 ter
16 2702 on the monitor, please. And this is under seal. Maybe we should go
17 into private session.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I have a question
19 first for the witness. Witness, would you also say that there was no
20 civil war underway? No internal conflict at the time?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say it was war. Clashes
22 between ethnicities, for example, the Muslims and the Serbs who were in
23 town, yes, there were clashes. That much was obvious. But as for the
24 use of some weapons such as shelling and that sort of thing, not exactly
25 on a large scale. This was mere the exchange of rifle fire going on for
1 a day or two, and then it was all done.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we move to
4 private session, please, because we have to display a document under
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 13656-13677 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
4 Q. Mr. Witness, did you know some of the victims?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us which ethnicity they had?
7 A. The ones I knew were Muslims, but there were other ethnicities
8 among the victims.
9 Q. Do you remember that you accompanied a person on the second day
10 of your collection? Can you tell us who it was.
11 A. Yes, I was dispatched to escort an inspector from the federal
12 SUP, from Belgrade, who had arrived from Belgrade. We were to welcome
13 him on the way out of Bijeljina in the direction of Bosanska Raca.
14 Q. Could you go with him through the city without any problems, or
15 have there been problems?
16 A. When we returned after we met him, we were stopped near the
17 barracks or near the Belimi cafe, I think that was what it was called, by
18 the paramilitaries, I can't call them anything else because I don't know
19 which unit they belonged to. Both I and my colleague were disarmed as
20 well as the inspector who was driving a different car right behind us.
21 Q. Have you been disarmed? Yes, you told us, sorry.
22 Did you get your arms back later on?
23 A. Mr. Goran Jelisic was adamant that I should be given back my
24 weapon, and I was. The inspector and I were returned our weapons, but my
25 colleague was not.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that these
2 were para-military units. How are you able to establish a distinction
3 between JNA special units, for instance, and paramilitaries? What leads
4 you to say that this is the official army and these are paramilitaries?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regular military units, there were
6 none in the town. The reservists and in Yugoslavia, as it's well known,
7 everybody had a reserve military uniform. So many people were actually
8 wearing those, reserve uniforms. 50/50. Part uniform, part plain
9 clothes, normally. But then, for example, Arkan's unit, they were
10 wearing full combat gear with uniform, and they looked very much like an
11 organised unit, while the others were loose cannons.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like additional detail.
13 When you are saying reserve military units, for you, are they legal
14 units? Do these people belong to an army or not?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, they were paramilitaries
16 because they had not been mobilised by the military leadership which
17 means that they had been mobilised by the Serbian Democratic Party and
18 some other organisation like that, but not by the military, the army's
19 leadership. They were not mobilised by the army's leadership.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that Arkan's
22 units had uniforms. Could you tell us which uniforms they were wearing?
23 JNA uniforms or others?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, yes, JNA or not JNA.
25 Camouflage uniforms, full kits. You could buy a JNA uniform if you
1 wanted to. It was available, but the boots, the trousers, the jacket,
2 and a full combat kit. Normally what a JNA soldier would have had in
3 those conditions, not including the military cap. These people were
4 wearing knitted caps.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, Mr. Mussemeyer,
6 without giving you instructions or anything, we might have a photograph
7 that could illustrate what the witness just said. Photograph 1037. You
8 could ask for it to be displayed, and that way the witness could confirm
9 what he said in his answer to Judge Lattanzi.
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Okay. I agree. I had foreseen this photograph
11 for some seconds later, but we can show it now.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Mr. Registrar, could we please have item 1037 displayed.
14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: We have already seen this photo with another
15 witness, and it has got the Exhibit number P684.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, what kind of soldiers can we see here? To which
17 unit do they belong?
18 A. These are members of Arkan's unit, and as we can see, they are in
19 full combat kit.
20 Q. Can you say as where, in which location in Bijeljina was this
21 photo taken or where the victims are shown? Where is the location? Do
22 you know this?
23 A. The location is near the hospital, near Redzep's house. The
24 person lying on the ground is Redzep, his wife, and a third person that I
25 can't identify.
1 Q. Do you know if also Redzep's child was killed?
2 A. Yes. The child is across the way behind this first soldier's
3 back, in the front yard of the mosque.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Redzep's wife,
5 could you tell us which lady it is on this photograph? Is it the body
6 that is in the middle, or is it the body that's to the very right of the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Very well.
10 But you are telling us that Arkan's men were dressed in such a uniform,
11 is that it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Beanie cap, glasses, rangers on
14 their foot, camouflage unit.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is something like it,
16 but for the most part, they were in full combat kit.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The one who is with his foot
18 raised, I see that on his back, slung across his back he has got
19 something, seems to be a rocket-launcher. What do you think of it? Did
20 they have rocket-launchers?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is a Zolja, a small calibre
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
25 Q. Did you help collecting these bodies?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were these all the bodies you collected from that spot, or did
3 you have to collect others?
4 A. No, behind this gate in front of Redzep's house, there are
5 another four bodies, and then yet another four in the basement of
6 Redzep's house.
7 Q. Did you initially find these bodies in the basement, or did you
8 have to be called back?
9 A. No. First I picked up the four bodies that were out in the
10 street, and then I went to get the four bodies that were in the yard. I
11 was afraid that the house itself, Redzep's house, or the basement might
12 be booby-trapped, therefore, I didn't dare to actually go in and check.
13 But later Mr. Redzep's relative, the Redzep who had been killed, reported
14 that there were another four dead bodies in the basement of that house,
15 so we went and got them.
16 Q. Did you know one of these victims?
17 A. A single one whose body was in the basement. Coso Nargalic, his
18 body was in the basement.
19 Q. Are you sure that it was him? Do you recognise him?
20 A. It was difficult to recognise the other bodies there. The body
21 was -- the head was defaced from the blows. It was disfigured, it was
22 very difficult to make a positive ID.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you collected the bodies
24 of these victims. On this photograph here, these civilians obviously had
25 no weapon. I would like to know whether all the bodies that you
1 collected were bodies of people with weapons or without weapons?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed. None of the persons whose
3 bodies I collected were armed or had any military kit on them at all.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a small mystery which
5 I tried to raise, to unveil with another witness, but he was not able to
6 answer. Maybe you won't be able to answer either. This is a photograph,
7 it was taken by someone just when this soldier is about to -- obviously
8 to kick the victim. Who took this picture? Is it one of Arkan's men, or
9 is it freelance photograph that would be on the site at the time? Do you
10 have any idea who took this picture?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was a journalist. This
12 photograph was taken from the direction of the hospital, and the person
13 taking the photograph was probably concealed.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you collected these
15 bodies, was somebody filming what you were doing?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In this very spot shown in
17 this photograph, I, as a matter of fact, tried to use my own camera, the
18 one that I had in my car, but it was seized, and I was banned from taking
19 any photographs or, indeed, checking the dead bodies. Their identities,
20 I mean.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who took away your camera? You
22 see, as we put the questions the witness, we learn a lot of things. Who
23 actually took the camera away from you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say it was Arkan's men.
25 Members of Arkan's unit. They were wearing the same sort of -- the
1 outfit as the rest of them.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, there was the police,
4 but with the police, were there other people collecting these bodies
5 alongside the police?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what exactly you mean,
7 but with me there were another two persons from the public utilities
8 company. They were seconded by the company to help collect the bodies.
9 I didn't, myself, collect the bodies. I provided security for those two
10 people from the public securities party who actually did. And they were
11 in charge of transporting these dead bodies.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is exactly what
13 I wanted to know. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, it's 12.00. I
16 believe it would be time for the break. We will finish at 1.15 today, so
17 let's have a 15-minute break. And when we resume, it would be nice if
18 the Registrar can tell me how much time you've already spent.
19 Fifteen-minute break.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Court is back in session.
23 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.
24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember having collected also the corpse of
1 of a father and two sons?
2 A. Yes, I do. About 300 metres away from the hospital towards
4 Q. Do you know who killed these victims?
5 A. As far as I know when I arrived later, I learned that those three
6 people were killed by Brano Sumar.
7 Q. Who was Brano Sumar, to which unit did he belong to?
8 A. Brano Sumar, as far as I know, belonged to the Mirko Blagojevic
10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I would like to show a document.
11 It's a document under seal, and we have to go into private session.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we move to
13 private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 13686-13691 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
16 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like to show a short video-clip now
17 which has the 65 ter number 6010, and it deals with clip E. For your
18 information, this clip has already been shown at our first video day.
19 You will certainly remember the 20th of March, 2008, but it was -- for an
20 error of the Prosecution, it did not get a P number. It was not
21 admitted. We thought that this video-clip was already admitted with the
22 Milosevic testimony of Mr. Seselj and had the P number 56, but clip A got
23 the number P56. And now I want to see again clip E. It's a very short
24 video, and I ask to get it admitted into evidence.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
2 Q. Mr. Witness, did you recognise Mirko Blagojevic on this
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I ask to get this video-clip
6 admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Before we rule on
8 this, sir, did you hear like I did -- this was shown very quickly. I
9 believe he said, "I'm the President of -- I'm the regional President of
10 the Serbian Radical Party." Did you hear this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the person saying that was
13 Blagojevic, Mirko Blagojevic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What we see -- at some point we
16 see a building which is marked "Gogo". Is this in Bijeljina?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from the first sketch where I
18 marked the cafe bar Istanbul and the cafe bar Serbia.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we see two sets on this
20 video-clip. We hear the fighting; we hear the shooting. And this is
21 shot live, so to speak. And then we have the interview of Blagojevic; is
22 that right?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can hear the shots, the
25 bursts of fire, but we have the feeling that no one is firing back. Is
1 that what you heard also?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On a number of occasions
3 there was shooting without any reason hitting shops, houses, just like
4 that. Nobody was in any of those buildings.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, could we see
6 the video-clip again and stop when Blagojevic is speaking so that we can
7 see the insignia he is wearing and what he is wearing because it moves on
8 so quickly.
9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Certainly, Your Honour.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he says, I'm the President
12 of the regional -- of the Serbian Radical Party -- "I'm the regional
13 President of the Serbian Radical Party." So you saw him on the picture.
14 When you saw him, was he dressed like that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like that. I
16 didn't see him looking like that.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like
18 that, oh. What was different?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the interpretation.
20 Could you say it again.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat my question.
22 What was different? What is different between what we see and between
23 what you saw at the time?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: Normally, he
25 didn't have a uniform, but here we have to see -- well, that the members
1 of the unit led my Mirko Blagojevic, that they all had these cockades on
2 their heads, whereas the rest didn't have those, for example, the
3 reservists, the JNA reservists, or Arkan's unit, they didn't have
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give this an exhibit
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor is
8 repeating the same mistake that he made in March last year. He is not
9 telling us the date when this was filmed because the fighting in
10 Bijeljina lasted four days. In the document attached to this file, it
11 says that it's a statement by Vojvoda Blagojevic in Bijeljina March 1992.
12 There was no fighting in March. The fighting began on the 31st of March
13 and went on for at least the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April. So we need
14 dates and possibly who filmed this so that we know what day this was
15 filmed on.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, where do these
17 pictures come from? What is the date of them?
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The exact dates, I cannot tell you. I don't
19 know. I can tell you how the Prosecution received this video-clip. I
20 already mentioned it in March. We received it from Sonja Biserko, and
21 the date was the 6th of November, 2002, that she gave it to the
22 Prosecution. More, I can't tell you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we have the video-clip, we
24 need an Exhibit number.
25 Mr. Registrar please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P737.
2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honour, I was informed, if you see at this
3 still at the left-hand corner at the top, there is the Logo of a Serbian
4 television. From Belgrade.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is a question of
6 a technical nature. When Blagojevic says we are controlling all the
7 exits and entrances to the town, we have the feeling that he is the big
8 boss. He is in charge of everything. He gives an interview to
9 television. Was that the case or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was keeping everything
11 under control, I don't believe that. The Crisis Staff was in charge of
12 that, after all. They were holding all the access roads into the town.
13 Well, that was the case even before the clashes broke out. I can only
14 say that the clashes went on for about two days, meaning between the 31st
15 and the 1st. On the 1st and perhaps early on the 2nd of April. After
16 that there were no clashes. No shooting. Shooting into the air.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, if you say that the
18 clashes lasted two days, this means that the Muslim forces fought? There
19 was fighting in that case?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was there fighting? There was
21 probably someone, but it wasn't to the same extent. For example, there
22 was no unit that was holding the entire centre of town because there was
23 no such thing. So there were no major clashes. Individual, sporadic
24 clashes, two or three men involved who were armed and then they fired at
25 a member of this unit, that unit, Arkan's unit, but not to any major
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Muslims that were shooting
3 at Arkan's men, were these Muslims placed under anybody's command, or
4 were they just doing what they felt like doing?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was no command. For
6 example, some neighbourhoods organised themselves, and that's how
7 resistance was put up. Based on that. I'm not aware of there being any
8 direct command.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about you, yourself?
10 Maybe this question would have been put during cross-examination. You
11 were a Muslim policeman. Normally speaking, your side would have been
12 the Muslim side. Why didn't you shoot at Arkan's men and the other men?
13 Or did you shoot and you are not talking about it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I wasn't shooting myself.
15 If I had been shooting, I would have been killed, that much is certain.
16 I said already and I'll say it again, I was at the police station, and
17 the entire station was not involved in the clashes that were going on in
18 the town. I simply had no opportunity to clash with those persons at
19 all. But I know that on day three, I went into town myself. I was
20 walking around. There was no shooting, no actions, or anything like
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question mark.
23 Arkan's men saw you, and they didn't kill you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But when I was walking around
25 town, they couldn't know who I was and what I was doing, especially
1 Arkan's men, since at the time I was wearing a beret with a Serb
2 three-coloured flag which led them to believe that I, too, was Serb.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. This
4 was important.
5 Mr. Mussemeyer.
6 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
7 Q. Mr. Witness, was it possible for the civilian inhabitants of
8 Bijeljina to leave the town whenever they wanted after April 1991, or did
9 they need specific permission?
10 A. Anyone leaving the town, especially for Serbia needed a permit
11 from the Crisis Staff or from what was then the TO staff. The
12 recruitment office.
13 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I would like to show such a -- it
14 is called freedom of movement pass, but we have to go into private
15 session because it's a document under seal.
16 Mr. Registrar, I would like to see --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 13699-13701 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
12 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know -- or what do you know about the
13 destroyed mosque in Bijeljina? Can you confirm that some of them have
14 been destroyed?
15 A. Yes, mosques were destroyed. I think long after the clashes had
16 broken out. They were destroyed in areas where there were no combat
17 operations at all. Bijeljina and the entire region, and I'm referring to
18 Muslim settlements.
19 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have the document
20 under number 880 on the 65 ter list shown on the monitor.
21 Q. And, Mr. Witness, I would like to ask you if you know -- can tell
22 us which mosque it is? Do you know this place? And can you please let
23 us know which mosque it was.
24 A. Yes. This is near Bijeljina, not -- an area that was not
25 affected by any war operations at all. Booby-trapped.
1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I would like to move this document
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number --
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, when?
5 Mr. President, yes, booby-trapped, yes, destroyed, but when?
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you give us a
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you a specific date,
9 but it was destroyed in 1992. And this place is about 15 kilometres from
10 the frontline where there was fighting. This is a Muslim village which
11 was later settled by Serbs, therefore, there were no operations anywhere
12 nearby. It was booby-trapped.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it was destroyed, could you
14 tell us after which month it was destroyed?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could only have been autumn
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the fall of 1992. Very
18 well. Let's give it a number.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, was there fighting
20 around Bijeljina after the spring also?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No fighting around Bijeljina. All
22 of the places around Bijeljina are predominantly Serb, settled, but there
23 was only Janja in the direction of Zvornik. No clashes there at all.
24 Villages towards Stajocuk, Janja, Bijeljina, Trnovo, likewise no clashes.
25 In July all of the Muslims left those villages. They moved out.
1 Although they had previously signed the statement of loyalty to SAO
2 Semberija, and Majevica.
3 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, can we have a
5 number, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit P739.
7 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the next
8 photo on the monitors. It appears the 65 ter number 2763.
9 Q. And, Mr. Witness, when we can see it, please let us know which
10 mosque it was.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Janja.
12 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Mr. Registrar, is there a second page that we
13 can see?
14 THE REGISTRAR: There's only one page, but two photographs.
15 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Then, please, can you show us the next photo
16 which bears the 65 ter number 2763. It's the same, I guess.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The photo currently broadcast is 2763.
18 MR. MUSSEMEYER:
19 Q. Mr. Witness, what do you see on the first picture at the top?
20 This was the mosque you already described. And is it the same location
21 which shown on the second picture at the bottom, and what does it show?
22 A. This is the mosque in the centre of Janja. The original
23 condition. The upper photograph. And the lower photograph the ones that
24 have been blown up by mines.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are two
1 different mosques, both are in Janja, but they are not one in the same
2 mosque, and I think the Prosecutor should prepare a little better. In
3 the first photograph the mosque that the witness is talking about without
4 telling us when it's destroyed. The other photograph shows a different
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's put an end to this. So,
7 Witness, please, when was the -- when was this destroyed with plastic
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This momentarily the same, they
10 were all blown up at one period of time, but I can't be specific about
11 the date because I wasn't there when they were destroyed. But I could
12 see from a certain spot exactly when they vanished, but not the exact
13 date, let's say, at the same time all the mosques in that region were
14 destroyed. Late in 1992.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the end of 1992. Very well.
16 I think we've been through this with the expert who came to testify on
17 mosques. I wonder whether a decision has been actually handed regarding
18 the admission of these pictures. But let's give it a number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit P740.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mussemeyer, we
21 have to put an end to this. We have to stop now because we have -- I
22 have another hearing starting soon. I would like the Registrar to please
23 tell me the time he spent already. You haven't used up a lot of time.
24 You still have 30 minutes. But we'll have to move faster because
25 tomorrow there's another witness scheduled. If we have constant
1 objections, Mr. Seselj, we won't be able to hear the next witness.
2 Ms. Dahl, what do you have to say?
3 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I wanted to put on the record that we
4 located the missing closed session transcripts with regard to the
5 witness. We had them transcribed into the Serbian language, and I've
6 given copies to the Registrar to disclose to Mr. Seselj. We apologise
7 for the oversight. Approximately 20 pages of material.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you've given them to
9 Mr. Seselj.
10 Witness, you are now in the hands of justice, a witness of
11 justice. You are not supposed to contact anyone except, of course,
12 members of your family. You can just tell them that everything is going
13 well. We will meet tomorrow at 8.30 in the morning. And I would like
14 everyone tomorrow to be extremely concise and brief and fast because we
15 have another witness scheduled, and if we don't finish with this one, the
16 other witness will have to stay until next week. Have a pleasant
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.13 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
20 January 2009, at 8.30 a.m.