Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14821

 1                           Tuesday, 12 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10     Mr. Registrar.  This 12 January 2010 I extend my greetings and best --

11     all my wishes for a Happy New Year because we haven't had an opportunity

12     to meet since a year ago.  So to all a very Happy New Year.  I hope it

13     will bring to you all the satisfactions you may hope for.  Besides,

14     concerning today's hearing we have to hear a protected witness - I will

15     not say his name - we will see this in the second part of the hearing.

16             As you know, from the point of view of timing, of schedule, the

17     Prosecution will have two hours for the direct and Mr. Seselj will have

18     two hours for the cross-examination.  We have, therefore, provided for

19     two days of hearings for this witness, today and tomorrow.  Sometimes

20     experience has shown that there are objections, problems, issues.  I want

21     to accelerate as much as possible this hearing in order to start on

22     possible administrative and housekeeping matters.  I know Mr. Seselj has

23     a few administrative matters to discuss, so you have the floor,

24     Mr. Seselj.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have five brief

Page 14822

 1     procedural matters to deal with.  The first question that I would like to

 2     raise is the following.  Last week I received a transcript from the OTP,

 3     that is the third interview transcript of this witness who we are going

 4     to hear today, and it's from December 2008.  So please look at me, if

 5     you'd like to cast a glance in my direction.  Many of the pages of this

 6     interview have been blacked out.  This is the first time this kind of

 7     thing has happened.  I believe that this is totally untenable.  I

 8     addressed the Prosecution yesterday a few times.  There were a few

 9     matters I wanted to deal with.  One issue was settled through

10     Mr. Marcussen's intervention; however, this problem was not dealt with,

11     it was not resolved.  So I ask you to instruct the OTP to give me the

12     full transcript as soon as possible so that I could prepare for the

13     cross-examination tomorrow.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, you have the

15     floor.

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I apologise for interrupting the accused, but I

17     think that at least for the time being we should keep this matter in

18     closed session.  So I would like to ask that we redact this particular

19     portion of the transcript and there be no broadcast of this and we can

20     see later --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.  Yes, all

22     right.  Well, we go to closed session because anyway I should --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. President, I think that

24     you should let me say what I think about that request made by the

25     Prosecutor.  I did not even mention the code-name, let alone the name of

Page 14823

 1     this witness.  I just said one thing, that the interview is from December

 2     2008.  No one from the ranks of the public can understand who this is.

 3     There is no reason whatsoever to move into closed session and to have

 4     this deleted.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have to talk about points

 6     which can be discussed only in closed session, so since I'm going to

 7     answer you I'm asking the Registry to organise closed session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

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Page 14824











11 Page 14824 redacted. Private session.















Page 14825

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 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second question I'd like to

10     deal with very briefly --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  We are in open session.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second question I'd like to

13     deal with briefly is that I would like to notify the OTP that tomorrow

14     during my cross-examination or even today, if I start my

15     cross-examination, I will use the book authored by Mirzet Hamzic:

16     "Zvornik to Dayton."  The Prosecution has that book so I don't want them

17     to be unprepared.  You see that I dealt with this very briefly.

18             Thirdly, Mr. President, on behalf of the Trial Chamber at the

19     last Status Conference you gave your oral ruling that in the future you

20     make it incumbent upon me to provide the Registry with copies of the

21     books that I wish to publish if they -- so that they could check whether

22     they contain something that should not be published.  I haven't received

23     this decision in writing yet.  I've already told you that there are three

24     books that I have in print now and that they contain documents that are

25     accessible to the public.  As soon as these books come out, I'm going to

Page 14826

 1     provide the Judges with a set, the Registry with a set, and the OTP with

 2     a set.  In the meantime, they've come out.  You know, these big books

 3     could not have been prepared within one month's time.  They were prepared

 4     over a period of six months.  I'm not going to mention the titles of

 5     these books because they are of an offensive nature, some of them even

 6     lascivious.  Iain Bonomy, Kevin Parker, and O-Gon Kwon are the names of

 7     the Judges that are contained in the titles of these books that is here

 8     now, and I would like to ask you to instruct the usher to take these

 9     copies from me and to hand them to you officially.  Whoever does not

10     believe me can check what I've just said very easily.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12     continues]...  understand you, you have said three books.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague tells me -- he

15     asks whether your books are already on CD-ROM so that we may do some

16     electric search on the -- for instance, the name of witnesses.  Is --

17     technically speaking are your books already on an electronic means which

18     could help us to work faster?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.  Over these

20     seven years that I've been in prison, I don't know.  Technology has

21     advanced and to tell you quite frankly, I don't know what the technology

22     involved is when books are prepared.  However, I have the final product

23     here in my hands and that's what I can hand over to you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

25     continues]...  therefore is take your book.  It will be given to the

Page 14827

 1     Registrar, who is here, who is here -- the Registry with all the means

 2     they have, in particular translators, are going to peruse your book

 3     written in B/C/S to see if there are any names of witnesses, after which

 4     the Registry will tell us quickly whether there is any problem or not.

 5     And if we are told that there is no problem, all right.

 6             So, usher, please go and get these books and give them to the

 7     court Registrar.  My colleague Judge Harhoff, I think, would like to take

 8     the floor.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Seselj, would it be possible for you to ask your publisher to

11     provide us with the electronic version of the three books?  I'm sure they

12     have it because that is normally an automatic part of the publishing and

13     printing process.  So if you could make sure that the publisher sends the

14     books in electronic form to the Registry, then the whole issue of doing

15     the research electronically for possible confidential information can be

16     done very quickly and swiftly.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is possible that my publisher --

18     it is possible that my publisher intends to place the books on my

19     internet site.  Maybe they've already done so, however I haven't received

20     any information about that yet.  Perhaps I can ask if that is the format

21     that you may find appropriate.  You see, the books are bound in a

22     computerised fashion, so perhaps it is possible to make a copy of all of

23     that for the Court.  But I don't know how I can get my hands on that now.

24     I have no possibility of inviting my advisors to visit.  Perhaps only

25     towards the end of February, even later, because as you know I pay for

Page 14828

 1     the travel expenses and the trip of my legal advisors and everything else

 2     for that matter.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, thanks, but you only have to ask your

 4     publisher to send it to us.  It's as simple as that.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can ask the publisher, but now

 7     whether he is going to go by what I said, that's a different matter.  I

 8     mean, who obeys a convict who's been in prison for seven years, even

 9     one's wife and children no longer obey him, let alone someone else.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11     continues]...  topic, Mr. Seselj.  Another question?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I've already referred to

13     these seven years of being a convict here at The Hague Tribunal, you know

14     that my status is actively still that of a detainees.  I'm still a person

15     who is presumed innocent.  Everyone is still duty-bound to consider me to

16     be an innocent person, including the Judges and the Prosecutors and to

17     treat me as such unless proven otherwise.  Over these seven years I've

18     had a great many problems in my profession, in my active pursuit of

19     political life, and the Registry and the prison administration have

20     prevented me from contacting the outside world very staunchly.  You know

21     that others were allowed to be provisionally released, go into politics,

22     et cetera.

23             But this is the first time that I have a very important reason to

24     ask the Trial Chamber, since on the 24th of January local elections are

25     being held in the municipality of Odzaci in Serbia, in Vojvodina, and I'm

Page 14829

 1     very, very interested in the outcome of these elections.  And therefore

 2     I'm asking on the occasion of the local elections of Odzaci, I would like

 3     to address the public via telephone in relation to these elections.  I

 4     don't mind that these conversations being listened in to, but I would

 5     like to address the public and present my political views in relation to

 6     the elections in Odzaci that are very important for me and for my

 7     political party, the Serb Radical Party.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now I have understood the

 9     problem.  On the 24th of January there will be a local election in

10     Vojvodina which is important for you, and you are requesting the Chamber

11     to authorise you to speak to your constituents or the voters.  And taking

12     into account the exceptional nature of this request, the Prosecution

13     should quickly let us know of its position in writing so that the Chamber

14     may decide on this request.

15             Mr. Marcussen, I think you got all the elements on page 8 and 9

16     of the transcript.  So please give us in writing your position and then

17     the Chamber will rule before the 24th of January, of course giving you a

18     decision on this matter.

19             Other questions, Mr. Seselj?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please bear in mind that there is

21     silence two days before the elections, on the 22nd and the 23rd, so

22     Monday next week would be most suitable for me for this press conference.

23             Then the fifth question.  I've raised it several times --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I forgot.  So there's somebody

25     who should let us know his position in writing.  I will also ask the

Page 14830

 1     Registrar to let us have his own opinion, position, in particular on the

 2     means, technical and otherwise the means, which may be provided for, for

 3     this request.  So the Registrar should in writing let us know what his

 4     position is, and this at the latest on Friday.  There.  But I know that

 5     the Registry of this Tribunal follows second by second anything which is

 6     being said.  I am convinced that your request has already been heard at

 7     the highest level in the Registry.

 8             Mr. Seselj.

 9             And Mr. Marcussen, also, Friday for your own observations at the

10     latest.

11             Mr. Seselj.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The fifth question I would like to

13     raise is the following.  You know that it's been more than a year now

14     that the Registry unilaterally suspended my co-operation with my legal

15     advisors Zoran Krasic and Slavko Jerkovic on the basis of the

16     confidentiality of our contacts, on the suspicion that these advisors of

17     mine exercised undue influence over witnesses.  None of this has been

18     proven in the meantime and, as you suggested, I addressed the Registrar

19     to normalise their status as legal advisors.  The Registrar turned me

20     down.  Then I addressed the President of the Tribunal.  The President and

21     his Deputy evaded that, and the President appointed Judge Mehmet Guney to

22     deal with the matter and he rejected my objection.

23             Now it is up to the Trial Chamber to decide whether my procedural

24     rights have been jeopardised and whether it is in the interests of

25     justice to normalise my co-operation with Zoran Krasic and

Page 14831

 1     Slavko Jerkovic, my legal advisors, or not.  I find the two irreplaceable

 2     because they have been co-operating with me on this case for seven years

 3     now.  I do have other legal advisors too, but they do not have enough

 4     time to go into all the minute details of the case and to gain the kind

 5     of experience that Krasic and Jerkovic have.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 7     continues]...  understood, you say, you are now verbally making this

 8     request, motion.  You have followed the procedure, which is to say first

 9     of all you have asked the Registrar, who rejected your request; then you

10     seized the President and a decision was given by Judge Guney which

11     rejected your request; and thus far you are now asking the Chamber

12     following what was being said in a judgement in appeal recently.

13             Now we have your verbal motion in order to have Mr. Zoran Krasic

14     and Slavko Jerkovic in their status of privileged collaborators.  And the

15     Chamber being seized of this request now, legally, of your verbal

16     decision [as interpreted], will give its decision possibly orally at the

17     next hearing.

18             Now all subjects having been discussed, we will take the blinds

19     down because there is a closed session phase for the witness.  I will

20     therefore now ask the Registrar to bring the blinds down and the usher to

21     go and get the witness and we go into closed session.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14832











11 Pages 14832-14847 redacted. Closed session.















Page 14848

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in public session.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Wait a minute.

Page 14849

 1     Let's go back to closed session because I still have something to say.

 2             Registrar, please, we go back to the closed session for a few

 3     seconds.

 4                           [Private session]

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Page 14850











11 Page 14850 redacted. Private session.















Page 14851

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19                           Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

20        Q.   VS-037, I wanted initially to ask you some questions about some

21     procedural background for you being here today.  Have you given a

22     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in December 2008?

23        A.   I did give a statement after I was warned that I was a suspect

24     when I refused to give a statement, and then as a suspect I had to make a

25     statement.

Page 14852

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if I could get the assistance of the usher

 2     I'd like to show the witness a statement.

 3             And I would like to inform the Court that what I'm showing is

 4     65 ter number 7510.  And we should not be broadcasting this exhibit.

 5        Q.   VS-037, is this the statement that were taken from you in

 6     December 2008?

 7        A.   Yes, that's what I was told, that as for these different

 8     statements that I made in different institutions, we should try to

 9     compile a single one with the right kind of content.  But, yes, this is

10     true, yes.

11        Q.   And it is your signature on the front page of the document and

12     it's -- have you put your initials on the -- at the bottom of the

13     different pages?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is this statement correctly reflecting your recollection of

16     the events at the time?

17        A.   Well, it is my statement.  I said roughly what it was that I

18     remembered in relation to particular questions, and in that statement we

19     tried to compile a sort of summary of my previous statements.

20        Q.   And this process and this summary of the statement correctly

21     reflects your recollection, although it is a summary; is that right?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   The basis for my examination today will be a number of the issues

24     that are addressed in the statement.  I'm not anticipating going much

25     outside of what is in there.  So I just say this for your information

Page 14853

 1     since we didn't meet before today.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like then to go briefly into private session,

 3     please.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 14854











11 Page 14854 redacted. Private session.















Page 14855

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, you have the

 5     floor.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   I should ask if, Mr. 037, you are having your statement in front

 8     of you that you put it to a side.  Normally you should testify from your

 9     memory, so if I could ask that you just place it aside and don't consult

10     it unless we specifically get to that.

11        A.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber what did you do from 1989 to 1991?

13        A.   At the time I worked as a commercial director in a private

14     company at Zvornik.

15        Q.   And did you come to hold a position in Zvornik at some point in

16     1991?

17        A.   Yes, from July or August 1991 I was the commander of the SJB in

18     Zvornik based on the decision signed by the then-minister,

19     Mr. Delimustafic.

20        Q.   And until when did you hold that position?

21        A.   I remained in that position until the 16th of April, 1992.

22        Q.   What did you do after that?

23        A.   After that I was appointed director of a haulage company by the

24     name of Autotransport in Zvornik.

25        Q.   Were you ever a member of the SDS?

Page 14856

 1        A.   Yes, from 1991.

 2        Q.   Do you remember when in 1991?

 3        A.   I don't remember exactly, from spring 1991.

 4        Q.   And did you hold any positions in the SDS in Zvornik?

 5        A.   For a brief period I was vice-president of the SDS, of the

 6     municipal committee of Zvornik.  That was my position in the hierarchy.

 7        Q.   And were you also a member of the municipal Main Board of the SDS

 8     in Zvornik?

 9        A.   Yes.  It was automatic that a man in my position was a member of

10     the municipal committee also.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in order for us Judges

12     to fully understand what you're saying, we would like to know who was

13     president of the SDS.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the SDS, the

15     municipal committee of Zvornik, was Branko Grujic.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In Zvornik, very well.  And

17     above?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the SDS for the

19     Republika Srpska was Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it the same Karadzic as the

21     one that is in the detention centre at the moment?

22             THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues]...

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

24             Mr. Marcussen.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 14857

 1        Q.   VS-037, turning to 1991, maybe the second half of 1991, could you

 2     tell the Trial Chamber what the aim of the SDS was with respect to Bosnia

 3     and Herzegovina and its status.

 4        A.   With regard to the historic experience of the area, the goal was

 5     to preserve the Serbian population because we had bad experience from

 6     history.  And the easiest way of achieving that was by preserving

 7     YugoslaviaYugoslavia was a framework in which all Serbs lived in one

 8     country, and it is logical that the upper-most goal of the SDS was the

 9     preservation of Yugoslavia as a whole.

10        Q.   And if that could not be achieved, what did the SDS want?

11        A.   The SDS followed the situation and monitored what other parties

12     were doing, mostly ethnic parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And we thought

13     that we must preserve Yugoslavia by all means as the largest framework in

14     which all Serbs could live in one country, in one territory.

15        Q.   If Yugoslavia could not be maintained, what did the SDS wish for

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17             MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  I have an objection.

18     Could the Prosecutor kindly bear in mind that my client is a low-level

19     party member in a small municipality.  Ask him questions -- asking

20     questions about high-level politics is inappropriate.  The high-level

21     policy of the SDS has nothing to do with my client.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard your

23     counsel.  He said that you were a low-level party member and you're not

24     able to answer any questions regarding party politics, but I believe that

25     you wanted to answer.  Please answer.

Page 14858

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can speak from the level at which

 2     I was.  I know that in Zvornik we organised a forum at which we tried to

 3     come to terms with the Muslim organisation which was led by

 4     Mr. Zulfikar Pasic at the time.  Slovenia had already left Yugoslavia and

 5     in Croatia there was a war --

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, counsel for the witness can

 7     certainly advise the witness if he is about to incriminate himself, but

 8     here we are seeking to establish things that are not incriminating for

 9     the witness and I would like to explore these issues some more, and I

10     think maybe we need to reiterate [overlapping speakers] --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go on.  Go on.  The

12     question was not self-incriminatory and the witness answered perfectly.

13     He said all he wanted was to maintain Yugoslavia as it was earlier -- at

14     least that's what we understood.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  If we could show Exhibit -- 65 ter 1298, please.

16   (redacted)

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry, I need to have a redaction of that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need to

19     redact.  Mr. Marcussen unfortunately made a little mistake, a small

20     mistake.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since Mr. Marcussen is

22     not concentrated enough, possibly Ms. Biersay should take over the

23     interview.  He is likely to repeat this mistake.  He isn't focused

24     enough.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let Mr. Marcussen

Page 14859

 1     do his job; it's in everybody's interest.

 2             Mr. Marcussen, please continue and don't be destabilised by all

 3     this.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, I think we are used to these sort of things

 5     here.

 6        Q.   VS-037, on the document in front of you there is in the left-hand

 7     column something numbered number 386; do you recognise this?  And I think

 8     it's being enlarged for you now.

 9        A.   I'm familiar with this.  I read this in the Official Gazette, and

10     in the newspapers these are the strategic objectives of the Serbian

11     people in Bosnia-Herzegovina which were adopted in May 1992 at the

12     Assembly.

13        Q.   Does that reflect the aims of the SDS to your knowledge?

14        A.   Well, the aims changed during the war.  This is 1992.  The war

15     had already started, so the circumstances had changed.  The SDS had as

16     its goal to preserve Yugoslavia in the beginning, but as the situation

17     changed on the battle-field, in politics, and international relations,

18     the leadership of the republic also adapted and changed its objectives.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a remark, but I promise I

20     won't have too many.  I demand that the OTP give us a transcript of this

21     session of the 12th of May where these objectives were allegedly adopted,

22     because according to the information I have this was -- this never

23     happened.  Because you allegedly have the transcripts of all sessions, so

24     why don't you give us a session of this one too.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen -- but I believe

Page 14860

 1     this question can be put during cross-examination.  But you have a text

 2     with a preamble stating that this was adopted during the session of

 3     May 12th, 1992, but then Mr. Seselj is telling us that no session was

 4     held on May 12th, 1992.  Do you have the minutes of the Assembly?

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I will have to verify whether or not we have that

 6     specific one, but if the accused wants to raise these sort of issues he

 7     should do it not during the examination of a witness but at an

 8     appropriate time.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I told him to do so.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:

11        Q.   VS-037, was it the aim of the SDS to establish de facto authority

12     over the areas where Serbs lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina in case

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina could not remain part of Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No, that was never an objective of the SDS as far as I know, in

15     the context which you outlined.

16        Q.   In what context was the objective?

17        A.   Well, things changed.  In my early days at the SDS, then we spoke

18     about the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, the establishment of

19     democracy -- multi-party democracy; then the following issue was

20     Yugoslavia falling apart and the need to preserve it because Slovenia had

21     already left and Croatia was on its way.  And when the situation

22     deteriorated so that the Muslims organised an election about a secession

23     of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia, then we defined our objectives of

24     how to deal with that at local levels, to preserve the population.

25     Because the Serbs at the time, or 99 per cent of us at least, didn't go

Page 14861

 1     to that referendum or -- and vote there.  Because as far as I understood,

 2     the SDS policy was for us to stay on the territories where we lived,

 3     respect everybody else, but preserve Yugoslavia as our home country.

 4        Q.   And maybe you could just tell the Court briefly when were those

 5     elections?

 6        A.   I believe that the elections were held in late March in 1992.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there's something I

 8     don't understand and I'm sure you will be able to shed some light on

 9     this.  You're saying that the SDS's objective, as far as you were

10     concerned, as far as you know, was to maintain Yugoslavia as it was; and

11     that given that, all nations would live together, Croats, Serbs, and

12     Muslims.  I understand that.  This is actually part of the constitution

13     of the former Yugoslavia.  But the document that we have here on the

14     screen says the following in paragraph 1:

15             "Establish state borders separating the Serbian people from the

16     other two ethnic communities."

17             I can't reconcile this.  I understand what you say, but I don't

18     understand what is written on this document because it seems to

19     contradict what you're saying.  Here on this document it seems that there

20     is a deliberate wish to separate all communities.  Can you shed some

21     light on this?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our reaction to the referendum

23     organised by the Muslims was a similar vote for the Serbs on whether they

24     want to remain in Yugoslavia.  Over 90 per cent of the Serbs turned out

25     and voted for, and I must say that a significant number of Muslims also

Page 14862

 1     voted there and voted for, in favour.  And there was a forum at which

 2     Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Zulfikar Pasic met, and it was attended by 5.000 or

 3     6.000 people.  And then it was decided that Alija Izetbegovic become

 4     president of Yugoslavia and that we remain to live in truncated

 5     Yugoslavia; that is Yugoslavia minus Slovenia and Croatia, but that was

 6     not accepted for various reasons.

 7             And the way I understand this first item to mean, the one you

 8     mentioned, Your Honour, is that all those who wish to stay in Yugoslavia

 9     and respect its laws can remain in Zvornik; and who doesn't want that can

10     go where they want to go.  That's what I read in the papers, but I wasn't

11     there so I'm not sure how this decision was taken.  Because this decision

12     was taken once the war started and once there was a line between the

13     Serbs -- the Serb-controlled territories and other territories.  In May

14     it was clear which territories were controlled by Serbs, Muslims, and

15     Croats respectively.  So in this part, the Serbian part, we recognised

16     Yugoslavia and there was practically no border, et cetera.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Mr. Marcussen.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:

20        Q.   What was the ethnic composition of Zvornik?

21        A.   In the Zvornik municipality -- which year are you referring to?

22        Q.   1991.

23        A.   The ethnic composition changed.  In the 1960s the Serbs were the

24     majority, but according to the last census in 1991 the composition was

25     about 60 per cent Muslims, 38 per cent Serbs, and 2 per cent of others,

Page 14863

 1     and these others mostly called themselves Yugoslavs.

 2        Q.   Did Zvornik have a particular strategic significance if a Serb

 3     area was to be created in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 4        A.   Every town has a certain significance, but Zvornik certainly had

 5     a strategic significance due to the fact that the municipality is on the

 6     border with Serbia.  Fifty or 60 kilometres of the borderline were in our

 7     municipality, and there was some power-plants and there was also a

 8     railroad line linking Serbia with Bosnia.  So, yes, it certainly did have

 9     a strategic importance.

10        Q.   Would it be fair to say that Zvornik therefore also was of

11     strategic significance as a link between Serbia and Serb-dominated areas

12     further into the west of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   Once the war broke out and the confrontation began, each side

14     wanted a compact territory, and the Serbian side too, for logistic

15     reasons, to facilitate supplies and -- yes, Zvornik did have a strategic

16     importance for the Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   In December 1991 did you participate in a meeting at the

18     Holiday Inn in Sarajevo?

19        A.   Yes, I attended that meeting in 1991.  The entire leadership was

20     invited, the Serb leadership, that is people who were in the joint

21     organs, state organs, member of the SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS, and I also

22     went to that meeting which took place at the Holiday Inn.

23        Q.   How many participants were there in the meeting?

24        A.   Practically the whole Executive Board of the SDS and the Serb

25     Members of Parliament and the BiH Assembly, all the ministers and their

Page 14864

 1     deputy ministers, as well as municipal presidents, people in high party

 2     positions, people from the MUP and the Ministry of Defence.  I believe

 3     that there were about 400 or 500 of us.

 4        Q.   And these people from high positions, were they members of the

 5     SDS?

 6        A.   I didn't take part in the organisation of that meeting, but I

 7     think that most of them were from the SDS because I saw some MPs who were

 8     of Serb ethnicity but they were not SDS members.  However, I believe that

 9     the majority were SDS members.

10        Q.   And you mentioned the SDS leadership.  Was Radovan Karadzic

11     there?

12        A.   Yes.  He gave a speech among others, yes.

13        Q.   Biljana Plavsic, was she there?

14        A.   Yes, Mrs. Plavsic was there too.

15        Q.   Momcilo Krajisnik?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Milorad Ekmecic?

18        A.   I remember him.  I think that he also addressed those present.

19        Q.   Could you tell us about the speech that Radovan Karadzic gave,

20     and in particular I wondered whether or not he stated anything about the

21     SDS positions on what would happen if there was going to be a war in

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23        A.   Much time has elapsed, so I don't remember everything he said.

24     But I know that he acquainted us with the political situation in BiH.  He

25     knew that the Muslims and Croats were in agreement and they were in

Page 14865

 1     favour of a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But our position was that we

 2     wanted to preserve Yugoslavia and if the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims

 3     cannot live together in Yugoslavia, how could they possibly live together

 4     in Bosnia.  I believe that at that meeting he said that the American

 5     ambassador to Yugoslavia at the time still advocated the preservation of

 6     a single Yugoslavia.  And he also had been to Belgrade and spoken to

 7     President Milosevic.  And we also had the support of the Serbian people

 8     to preserve Yugoslavia, albeit truncated.

 9        Q.   Did Mr. Karadzic mention that he had been in contact with the

10     JNA?

11        A.   There was no secret there.  The SDS's policy even then was -- as

12     he said that one of the means for us to survive in these territories was

13     to join the army.  And most Croats and Muslims who for a while before

14     that, for about a year, did not respond to calls for mandatory military

15     service.  And so their argument was that the ethnic composition of the

16     JNA had been changed and that the JNA had practically become a Serb army.

17        Q.   VS-037, I'd like to show you another document.  It is 65 ter

18     number 836.  That should come up on the screen as well very shortly.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And while we wait for that document to come up,

20     I'd like to tender 1298, 65 ter 1298, that I showed to the witness before

21     and forgot to tender.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

23     number for document 1298.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit P870.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 14866

 1        Q.   VS-037, we have the B/C/S version of the document that I'm

 2     talking about on the screen and now we have both versions.  We can look

 3     more at it, but maybe I can simply ask you this:  Are you familiar with

 4     this document just from looking at what you have in front of you now?

 5        A.   Well, I saw this document a day or two after my return from

 6     Sarajevo.  Grujic, the SDS president, told me that he had received

 7     instructions issued by the Executive Board of the SDS about the

 8     organisation of the Serb people in extraordinary circumstances.

 9     According to that plan, the Municipal Board of the SDS had some tasks.

10        Q.   And as far as you know, was this document distributed to other

11     Serb municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12        A.   Yes, I think that that was publicly known, that it was submitted

13     to all Municipal Boards of the Serb Democratic Party that functioned at

14     the time in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   And just -- is this document the one that is often referred to as

16     Variant A and B or plan A and B, are you familiar with that, just so we

17     have a shorthand version of how to refer to the document?

18        A.   Well, in the instructions, when you look at them, the Main Board

19     of the SDS, the creator of the document, had two ideas.  There were parts

20     of Bosnia-Herzegovina where Serbs were in absolute power, others where

21     they were a minority, and yet others were they were in power with the

22     other political parties.  So there was plan A and plan B.  Plan A

23     envisaged what to do in municipalities and environments where the Serb

24     people and the Serb Democratic Party had a majority and power.  Plan B

25     was roughly for municipalities and settings where Serbs were not in

Page 14867

 1     power, where they were a minority.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in --

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like to tender this exhibit before I forget

 4     again.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, number for this

 6     document, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P871.

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 9        Q.   VS-037, were steps taken to implement this -- these instructions

10     in Zvornik municipality?

11        A.   Well, we as the Municipal Board understood that this was an

12     assignment that had come from a higher level of authority.  We read the

13     plan.  Since we are the municipality of Zvornik, we had Variant B of this

14     plan.  I cannot remember now exactly what it had envisaged, but we

15     started discussing it point by point in order to see what we could

16     implement on the ground.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd like now to show the witness 65 ter

18     number 851, please.

19        Q.   VS-037, are you familiar with this document?

20        A.   Yes, yes, I am.

21        Q.   Could you tell the Court, was this document, this decision, was

22     that one that was taken pursuant to the previous instructions that we

23     just talked about?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  This is linked to the instructions looked at

25     previously and we adopted certain conclusions in this context.

Page 14868

 1        Q.   And if we look at some of the names listed here, we can see that

 2     a Crisis Staff was elected.  And could you tell us who Branko Grujic was.

 3     And for starts, was he a member of the SDS; and if so, what position did

 4     he have?

 5        A.   Yes.  I've already said that Branko Grujic was president of the

 6     SDS according to these instructions coming from a higher authority.  He

 7     was automatically supposed to hold the position of commander of the

 8     territorial staff, the Crisis Staff.  They were -- and that staff was

 9     supposed to follow the situation as it developed.  They were in a small

10     room and the next-door office which was just divided by a thin partition

11     was the office of the SDA.  And in the evening they'd watch television

12     together.  This was in the so-called Russian building.  To this day it's

13     called the Russian building in Zvornik.  Everybody knows about it.  And

14     the SDA and SDS offices were right next to each other.  We were on duty

15     in our office and then we'd sit together with them, have coffee,

16     et cetera.

17        Q.   And as commander of the Crisis Staff, did Branko Grujic have

18     contacts with the SDS leadership in Sarajevo and Pale?

19        A.   Well, I have to admit that Branko Grujic had little to do with

20     the headquarters in Sarajevo.  We had a member of parliament from Zvornik

21     who was a member of the Assembly in Sarajevo, and he was often supposed

22     to be there and he had more contacts with the leadership.  It was

23     Mr. Jovo Mijatovic, who at the time was an MP.  And he was the one who

24     had more contacts with the leadership and ex officio, as an MP, he was a

25     member of the Main Board at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He had more

Page 14869

 1     contact with the headquarters in Sarajevo at the time.

 2        Q.   Could you describe his relationship to Radovan Karadzic and

 3     Momcilo Mandic -- sorry, what am I saying - Momcilo Krajisnik?

 4        A.   Well, I really don't know what kind of relationships they had,

 5     but I think he was a lot closer to Krajisnik because the MPs gathered in

 6     the Assembly with Krajisnik -- but this is just sheer guess-work.  I know

 7     very little about this.

 8        Q.   From the -- from what you know, from the impression you had at

 9     the time, was he somehow Krajisnik's confidant or somehow informed him

10     about -- kept him informed about what was going on in Zvornik?

11        A.   Well, I really cannot speculate now.  He had authority as an MP

12     and he did enjoy trust, but what their relationship was I don't know.  I

13     know that during the war Jovo was an even higher official.  I can't

14     remember exactly what his position was, I don't want to make a mistake,

15     but he certainly did enjoy an enviable level of authority as an MP.

16        Q.   Was it your impression that the SDS leadership was kept informed

17     about developments in Zvornik by him?

18        A.   Yes.  We informed the higher level of authority to the effect

19     that we had acted on orders -- I mean, if we can call it orders.  It was

20     a set of instructions from a higher political organ such as the Main

21     Board was at the level of the republic, and other municipalities

22     throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina acted on that basis.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd like now to show the witness Exhibit 65

24     ter -- no, before I do that, I would like to tender the exhibit that has

25     just -- that I've just shown which is 851.

Page 14870

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, a number, please.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, Exhibit P872.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And then I'd like to show 65 ter 871.

 4        Q.   VS-037, I don't know if you can see this, but otherwise if we can

 5     zoom in on the right-hand page in the B/C/S version.  Now this document

 6     is in its introduction in the beginning referring to a decision on the

 7     19th of December, 1991.  Is that -- is that the decision or is that a

 8     decision that was taken at the hotel Holiday Inn that we talked about

 9     earlier?  So this is also a decision in implementation -- sorry, a

10     decision implementing these instructions?

11        A.   Well, of course this was not adopted at the Holiday Inn.  This is

12     a municipal decision.  It was made on the premises of the Serb Democratic

13     Party, roughly on the basis of this instruction to set up the Serbian

14     municipality of Zvornik, and also at our initiative --

15        Q.   Thank you --

16        A.   -- because we had this problem there.

17        Q.   Sorry.  Yeah -- no, my question was unclear.  My question was

18     whether it was an implementation of the instructions.  So thank you for

19     helping clarifying that.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like to tender this exhibit, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please,

22     Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P873.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And then I'd like to show yet another 65 ter

25     number at this time, 1015.  And if we could zoom in, this time on the

Page 14871

 1     left page.

 2        Q.   VS-037, are you familiar with this document?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, but this is from the 15th of March, 1992.

 4        Q.   Yes, but was this adopted by the Serb municipality in Zvornik?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please give a number,

 9     Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P874.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have read this document with

12     a lot of interest.  One discovers that one has some property.  It can

13     only be sold to a Serbian.  Do you find this normal or not?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see where that is written

15     here.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Look at paragraph number 1, and

17     you see agricultural land, buildings, and so on.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, yes, of course,

19     this is not a normal thing.  It's discrimination, but believe me the

20     other side and the third side as well -- well, you know, at that time

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina already had this referendum on separation, then

22     everybody adopted such nebulous things, this being one of them.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

24             Mr. Marcussen.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 14872

 1        Q.   VS-037, are you familiar with a gentleman called Zoran Subotic?

 2        A.   No.  Jovan Subotic?

 3        Q.   Zoran Subotic?

 4        A.   Yes, Zoran Subotic I've known for years, yes.

 5        Q.   Did he at some point hold a position in the Crisis Staff in

 6     Zvornik?

 7        A.   Yes, at the very beginning of the conflict in Zvornik I know that

 8     he was mobilised by the JNA and that he held the position for about 20

 9     years or so in the TO staff.

10        Q.   Was he a member of a political party?

11        A.   Well, later on I found out when he became an official in the

12     government that he was a member of the Serb Radical Party, but it was

13     only years later perhaps that I found out.

14        Q.   Do you know whether he ever held a position in the government in

15     Serbia?

16        A.   Well, I think that it was only for a short period of time.  I

17     think it was the only time that the Radicals took part in the government,

18     when then there was the Kosovo problem.  I think that he was deputy

19     minister in one of the ministries, but I don't know which one.

20        Q.   Could it be vice minister for works and social policies?

21        A.   Probably.  I'm not sure, but possibly it could have been

22     something like that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we are now getting to

24     a particularly interesting subject because it concerns the accused.  You

25     were a member of the SDS and there are other parties, in particular

Page 14873

 1     Radical Serb Party.  For you, what was -- what represented the Serbian

 2     Radical Party?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, we often put that

 4     question to the leadership of the SDS.  Why was he in contact with

 5     Milosevic at the time who, after all, advocated some ideas that were

 6     communist ideas in terms of continuing with the regime?  Why was there

 7     not contact with other parties that were more democratic than the regime?

 8     However, we contacted those who could help us.  That was -- it was only

 9     the SPS that was in government then, and relationship between the SPS and

10     the Radicals was terrible at the time.  We went to see them in Loznica

11     and elsewhere.  We held these meetings with them and they warned us and

12     they had strings attached to it as well, that we should not have contacts

13     with opposition parties because this parliamentary life in Serbia, the

14     multi-party system in Serbia had not started functioning fully.  So we

15     contacted with the SPS and the Radicals and others like Vuk Draskovic

16     from the SPO and the others, the Serb Renewal Movement, et cetera.  So we

17     didn't really have contact with them and we were even under the

18     surveillance of the SPS, that we should not have contact with them.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

20     inadvertently you have confused the witness.  Perhaps the key question

21     would be whether the Serb Radical Party existed at all at that time in

22     Zvornik.  In Zvornik it was established only in 1993.  That is important,

23     you know, the witness should not be confused.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, when I asked you

25     this question I hadn't taken in account of chronology, but when you were

Page 14874

 1     yourself belonging to your own party, the SDS, in the municipality of

 2     Zvornik, at that particular moment in the municipality of Zvornik did the

 3     radical -- the Serbian party exist; in Zvornik, did it exist?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it didn't exist in the

 5     municipality in Zvornik at all or in Bosnia-Herzegovina as such.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it did not exist.  Very

 7     well.  Indeed this has escaped me because this question has already been

 8     asked from this witness and I didn't remember it, but at the time when

 9     you were in Zvornik you know about the existence of the Serb Radical

10     Party or you know nothing about them?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were a party that was

12     just being established, and I knew of course from the media that there

13     was a Serb Radical Party.  And once I was in Mali Zvornik when Mr. Seselj

14     held a rally.  I was there because I lived in Mali Zvornik at the time, I

15     had a house there.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  And could you tell

17     us at what -- on what day was this speech given where Mr. Seselj was

18     present?  What was the precise date on this speech?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be hard for me to

20     remember, but I know that I wasn't working with the police yet.  I was

21     still a civilian.  So it was before July 1991.  That's the only thing can

22     I say, but I don't know the exact date.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you went to listen to him

24     for what reason?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was interesting.  For a

Page 14875

 1     politician who criticised the government at the time was coming.

 2     Because, you know, after all we lived in communism for a long time, where

 3     you didn't dare say anything against the powers that be.  So for young

 4     people this was an interesting thing to go and hear what this was all

 5     about.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand that, but in July

 7     1991 did Mr. Seselj, according to you, criticise the power -- yes, did he

 8     criticise Slobodan Milosevic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the powers that be at the

10     time before July 1991 because I joined the police in 1991 in July, and I

11     know that at that time I went as a civilian to that rally to hear what

12     this was all about.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking this question

14     because for the Prosecution, for the Prosecution, Mr. Seselj and

15     Mr. Milosevic were a part of a same enterprise -- joint criminal

16     enterprise.  And now you're telling us that you were in a meeting where

17     Mr. Seselj was criticising Mr. Milosevic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, among other things, he talked

19     about the history of the Serbs and -- well, I don't know exactly.  But

20     most of it was criticism of the current government and also doing away

21     with communism.  So that would be it.  That's what it was mostly about.

22     I know because he had his picture taken with a neighbour of mine, a

23     Muslim, who was there at that rally, Sakib, I can't remember his last

24     name, and I found that to be of interest.  I think it was published in a

25     newspaper afterwards.

Page 14876

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The photograph, who was in it,

 2     Mr. Seselj and the Muslim or the Muslim and yourself?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, this neighbour of mine who

 4     was a Muslim.  I think that he was one of the very few -- well, I don't

 5     know exactly.  I mean, it was interesting and perhaps that's why one of

 6     the local newspapers carried that, a Muslim who attended the rally of the

 7     Serb Radical Party at the time, because everything that had this ethnic

 8     national element at the time was considered -- well --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then excuse me for having

10     interrupted you, but the participation of the witness at a meeting

11     Mr. Seselj could be interesting -- could have been interesting.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the witness is here to answer

13     questions for the Court to decide the case, so I have no -- I appreciate

14     the Court's putting questions to the witness.  I would, though, like if

15     this becomes an issue again that the Chamber warn the accused not to

16     interrupt when the witness is answering a question from the Bench.  The

17     witness was just explaining how they contacted various groupings at this

18     point in time the accused intervened.  It is most unfortunate that these

19     sorts of things happen.  The accused can put his questions when the time

20     for cross-examination comes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to intervene

22     because of these untruths that are presented by Mr. Marcussen.  I

23     patiently waited for the witness to answer your question, and it was only

24     then that I voiced my objection.  I think that my objection made it

25     easier to clarify certain matters.  The witness is not supposed to be

Page 14877

 1     confused on purpose or inadvertently.  The witness has to be asked

 2     questions that are as clear as possible so that his answers will be as

 3     clear as possible.  I patiently waited and then said what I had to say.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interest of all this is

 5     everything to be clear.

 6             Mr. Marcussen?

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 8        Q.   Would you describe Mr. Subotic's relationship to Mr. Seselj as

 9     being close?

10        A.   I don't know what their personal relationship was like, but I

11     assume that consent to his appointment in the ministry was given by the

12     leader of the party at the time, Mr. Seselj.  That is my assumption.

13        Q.   I turn to --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Marcussen has

15     asked you this question because in your statement you had said that they

16     were close.  And the Prosecutor of course is trying to know what -- how

17     close they were.  As for myself, I see that by your answer you didn't

18     know much about this.  Those were just assumptions.  You assumed that

19     Mr. Subotic was close to Mr. Seselj because both were in the same party,

20     belonged to the same party.  But when one says that people are close, it

21     means there are close ties between them.  What did you know of the

22     closeness of Mr. Subotic and Mr. Seselj?  What do you know about that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly.  I have

24     given quite a few statements.  Mr. Marcussen told me at the beginning

25     that I shouldn't be reading things, but relying on my own memory.  I

Page 14878

 1     really don't know about the nature of the relationship with Mr. Subotic.

 2     Mr. Subotic I saw only about ten times in my life.  Mr. Seselj I never

 3     saw in person.  I really don't know what the nature of their relationship

 4     was like.  I can only assume that Subotic, since he held such a high

 5     position as a member of the government and this ministry, I guess that

 6     they're close, but I really don't know.  I have no direct knowledge about

 7     any of this.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A brief objection.  Mr. President,

 9     from the transcript of the third interview of this witness from December

10     2008, you can see that the OTP had prepared this statement in advance and

11     they gave it to the witness to sign.  The witness signed it.  He probably

12     read it too; I'm not going into that.  But the witness statement had been

13     prepared in advance.  So the mode of interpretation is that of the OTP,

14     not the witness.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question.  It's not the

16     first time that the members of the Chamber have this problem.  When you

17     met the Prosecutor in December 2008, this statement was already prepared

18     and the Prosecutor told you, You have to sign here.  Was that the case or

19     did he have a conversation with you and he examined all paragraphs and

20     subjects and told you, "This is what you have said before, do you still

21     agree?"  This is what you're going to say.  According to your

22     recollections in December 2008, was all already prepared already or was

23     it done after a discussion in-depth with the Prosecution?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a joint analysis of these past

25     statements, we drafted a joint statement and I admit that I signed that

Page 14879

 1     statement.  But it was -- it must be reflected what I had said.  And --

 2     but we were in a hurry to catch a plane and so we had no time to go into

 3     the details and analyse every word.  But anyway, it was drafted in my

 4     presence, the presence of the lawyer, and the OTP.  But as I said, we

 5     were in a hurry, so we signed it and I had no time to re-read it and go

 6     into all the ramifications, the connotations of each word, et cetera.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 8     continues]...

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can see from this

10     transcript that the OTP informs the witness in December of 2008 that the

11     text of the statement was put together based on his testimony given at a

12     trial in The Hague and at the trial elsewhere and based on two earlier

13     interviews.  That's what the OTP let's us know in this statement.  It was

14     drafted in advance.  The witness agreed, but he is not a professional

15     politician so he needn't understand all the implications of that

16     statement.  The OTP is cunning.  They know what stands behind each word,

17     but no witness, if he is a common man, can understand that.  But I was

18     really close to -- with Mr. Subotic, so we needn't dwell on that.  He was

19     a member of the central homeland administration of the Serbian Radical

20     Party.  So no need to discuss it any further.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move on.

22     Since Mr. Seselj recognised that Mr. Subotic was close to him.

23             Mr. Tomic.

24             MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the truth, I must say

25     that it wasn't the way Mr. Seselj has just said.  All the statements were

Page 14880

 1     on the disk, all of them -- yes, we were in a hurry, but we did have --

 2     we did have an opportunity to read them.  And we drafted a common

 3     statement.  So that is the truth.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.

 5             MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Nothing was prepared in advance.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And at least for now we haven't solved the

 7     admission of the statement so this is really just a red herring.

 8             Your Honours, I was going to move into another topic, but I think

 9     we are getting close to the break, so I can either begin something else

10     or we can have the break a few minutes early.  I'm happy to do it either

11     way.  I just wanted to seek guidance from Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, we've

13     already used up an hour and a half.  Time flies.  So let's break till

14     5.30 and then we'll continue until 7.00 non-stop.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.12 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 5.37 p.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The court is back

18     in session.

19             Mr. Marcussen, you have used up 45 minutes so far.  You have one

20     hour and 15 minutes left.  In open session, I must say that the

21     Trial Chamber granted the following protective measures.  This was said

22     earlier but it was said in closed session, and I believe that we have to

23     say it in open session also.  So the protective measures granted are as

24     such:  Non-disclosure of the witness's identity with the use of a

25     pseudonym and distortion of the face of the witness.  Therefore, his face

Page 14881

 1     was not disclosed.  This was said in open session and it's now noted on

 2     the transcript.

 3             Mr. Marcussen, you have the floor.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, just in light of the accused's

 5     request this morning, his fourth request to be allowed to address the

 6     public, just in -- to allow the accused to take the necessary steps I

 7     wanted to advise the Chamber that the Prosecution's position is that the

 8     question of whether or not the accused can be allowed to contact anyone

 9     outside the Detention Unit is regulated by the Registrar.  So the general

10     principle is that the Trial Chamber may intervene in matters that are the

11     primary competence of the Registry only when the matters go to the

12     fairness of the trial.  The accused would have to make a request

13     initially to the Registrar, and only if that request is denied is it

14     possible for him to seize the Trial Chamber.  My understanding is he

15     hasn't yet made a request to the Registrar, so he would have to do that

16     first.

17             And I would also advise the Trial Chamber that in the Karadzic

18     case it was found that these sort of issues do not affect the fairness of

19     the trial so that the Trial Chamber can intervene.  I have some specific

20     jurisprudence on this, but I thought that maybe the Chamber wants to

21     direct the accused first to see what the Registrar's position is and then

22     the Prosecution can respond if necessary at that point in time.  So just

23     to allow the necessary time for the accused to take these steps if

24     needed.  I wanted to reiterate that before I continue.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your position is

Page 14882

 1     now noted on the transcript and you can continue with your

 2     examination-in-chief.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 4        Q.   VS-037, did the Serbs --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I say something prompted by

 6     this?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On what topic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] About what the Prosecutor has just

 9     said.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to point out that the

12     Trial Chamber decided formally that Ramush Haradinaj has the right to be

13     active in politics.  Even when he was allowed to go home to prepare for

14     trial.  Radovan Karadzic could give interviews to the newspapers.  I --

15     when I once spoke to journalists, that was a pretext to ban any contacts

16     with the outside world to me.  That was in 2004, though.  Only a few days

17     ago I learned about the local elections in Odzaci municipality.  I cannot

18     contact the Registry because if I do that I'll receive an answer in six

19     weeks.  Never has the Registrar urgently responded to any application of

20     mine.

21             If you think that I'm in a comfortable position here and that my

22     presumption of innocence is not jeopardised, then you needn't pass any

23     decision.  But the question imposes itself and it's a question of

24     principle whether I can go about my professional business, whether --

25     during my detention when it has nothing to do with my trial here or

Page 14883

 1     anything connected to it.  If it's about my -- the possibility of my

 2     influencing witnesses or the possibility that I might escape because

 3     these are the reasons for detaining someone.  And the third reason is

 4     preventing me from repeating the crime committed.  I have no intention to

 5     run and I cannot influence witnesses, and I have no opportunity of

 6     repeating my many crimes -- at least as the Prosecution alleges that I

 7     committed so many crimes.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your reply

 9     regarding the Prosecutor's -- Prosecution is now -- the Prosecutor's

10     position is now on the transcript.  And as I said, the Trial Chamber will

11     rule on this.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:

13        Q.   VS-037, did there some a time when the Serbs in Zvornik

14     municipality started to arm themselves?

15        A.   Well, briefly, yes.  If you want me to clarify the circumstances,

16     everybody started arming themselves.  There were very few Croats in

17     Zvornik, but the Muslims were the majority population and we had

18     information that they were arming themselves so the Serbs were also

19     arming themselves.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14884











11 Pages 14884-14894 redacted by court order.















Page 14895

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  I'm going to consult my

11     colleagues first of all.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14896

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I give another objection?

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  May I --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Let me in open session say the following.  This

10     witness -- the evidence that has been given so far on this point is

11     consistent with what the witness has already said before and that is

12     known and has been disclosed to various relevant bodies.  So I don't

13     think the witness has brought anything new up today which will

14     incriminate him.  It's a different matter if the witness starts -- if

15     there's some additional information about this or some additional

16     incidents that the witness has been involved in that we have not heard

17     about before, that is a different matter.  But -- and maybe we should

18     hear from the witness.  My understanding was that the witness actually

19     wanted this to be said in -- these things to be said in public.  But his

20     name obviously should not go out, and I can be more specific if we go

21     into closed session about what has been disclosed to who.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14897











11 Pages 14897-14898 redacted by court order.















Page 14899

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14900











11 Pages 14900-14902 redacted. Private session.















Page 14903

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. President, the special

12     operations unit of the State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia

13     is ready for inspection.  Unit commander Colonel Milorad

14     Vukovic [as interpreted] reporting.

15             "Hello Lukovic.

16             "Members of the special operations unit, salute!  Salute."

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Stop.

18        Q.   VS-037, do you know who this person is?

19        A.   The commander Milorad Lukovic, Legija.  At the beginning of the

20     war he was in Zvornik.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the transcript has been showing

22     Vukovic, but the correct name according to the witness - and I have to

23     say according to our information - is that it's Lukovic with an L and

24     that it is Legija who has been discussed a number of times.  If we can

25     continue.  Sorry, and we stopped at 7 minutes and 13 seconds in this

Page 14904

 1     clip.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 4        Q.   VS-037, we have stopped now at 7 minutes and 52 seconds.  What we

 5     actually see here is -- it's difficult when you stop a video to see

 6     people clearly, but the two men walking next to each other in front, do

 7     you know who they are?

 8        A.   One of them is President Slobodan Milosevic and the other is

 9     Jovica Stanisic, the chief of the State Security Service of Serbia.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Let's continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:

13        Q.   VS-037, do you know who the person on this bust is?

14        A.   Yes, it's the late Radoslav Kostic.

15        Q.   And we are at 8 minutes and 38 seconds here where we stopped.  Is

16     that the person that has been referred to today?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And do you know where this particular video has been shot?

19        A.   I was there on one occasion, we brought some flowers.  It's at

20     the training centre of the special units in Kula.

21        Q.   Are these the forces that were known as the JSO and sometimes

22     referred to as the Red Berets?

23        A.   Yes, their name changed several times, but they were called the

24     Red Berets, JSOs, special units of the MUP of Serbia, and other names.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I was going to show another excerpt

Page 14905

 1     from this particular video, but in the interests of time I propose to

 2     seek the admission of the video and the associated transcripts at this

 3     point in time.  I would like to show the witness some stills we have

 4     prepared.  Again, the quality is not great, but I think the witness is

 5     familiar with a number of persons.  So I would first seek the admission

 6     of the video.  It has, as I said, earlier been marked for identification.

 7     The witness has now given evidence about this and can provide further

 8     information, but maybe we can admit it at this stage --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the date, Mr. Kostic

11     died in 1994.  That's what we saw on the bust, so the video was shot in

12     the end of 1994, early 1995?

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  According to my information it was shot on the

14     5th of May, 1997.  And Your Honours will see from a later speech that

15     appears by Franko Simatovic that he refers to the fact that we are three

16     years after the death of Mr. Kostic and he died in 1994, as can be seen

17     in the video.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.  How is this

19     video relevant?  It was made in 1997.  Kostic was killed in 1994 as a

20     volunteer in Western Bosnia, where Fikret Abdic was.  What's the

21     connection with Zvornik?  And there is no evidence that during his stay

22     in Zvornik Kostic was a member of the SDB of Serbia.  He lived in Darda

23     then, and he was an official of the State Security Service of the

24     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  That's totally irrelevant, but of course

25     you can do what you want.

Page 14906

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, if --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber believes it's

 3     relevant.  We would like to have a number for this item.

 4             Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for this video.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it is MFI P131.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  So it should now be --

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It should now be -- it will now be Exhibit P131.

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd ask if the usher would please call up 65 ter

 9     number 7109A, like Alpha, and the first thing I'd like to show the

10     witness is page 3 of that exhibit.

11        Q.   And VS-037, I believe you have had an opportunity, probably

12     several opportunities, to review this video.  So I apologise.  I'll be

13     showing you some pictures which are not necessarily that great, but I

14     hope you'll be able to assist the Court on identifying some of these

15     people.  The -- my question about this picture is who is the gentleman

16     with the sunglasses standing behind Mr. Milosevic?

17        A.   I know from the newspapers that the person is Frenki, a member of

18     the MUP.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness is now in

20     the position to recognise people who he has never encountered in person.

21     He knows only from the newspapers.  I don't know what the OTP are doing

22     now.  This would be relevant if I could be seen in one of these

23     photographs, and then it could be tendered; but like this?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The person with the

25     glasses is Frenki Simatovic.  Is that it?

Page 14907

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it from the newspapers.  I

 2     never met these people, but of course I know Frenki from the newspapers.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And actually --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  -- in the video he is being identified if one

 6     looks at it, so I'm just trying to create a record which makes it a

 7     little handle of -- easier for everyone to handle.

 8             If we could now show page 4, please -- sorry, let's skip that.  I

 9     think we don't need this.  This is Frenki again.  Page 7.

10        Q.   Well, you've already identified I believe the two men standing --

11     no, let's not even go into this either.  Let's move to page 8.  I

12     apologise.

13             VS-037, do you recognise any of the people on this photograph or

14     still?

15        A.   I know some faces, but I'm not sure who is who, really.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at page 9.  I think we're still having page 8.

17             On this picture I think the gentleman with the red beret we have

18     already talked about.  Do you recognise any of the others?

19        A.   I'm not sure.  One of them looks like Panko [phoen], Radoslav,

20     but I'm not sure who is who.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we haven't even recognised the

22     person with the Red Beret.  It was the Prosecutor who recognised him

23     instead of the witness and on the witness's behalf, but the persons are

24     so different in this still and in the video that I'm sure that the

25     witness wouldn't have recognised him.

Page 14908

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you tell us who

 2     this person with the Red Beret is?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, believe me.  It must

 4     be a member of those units.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Could we then look at page 11, please.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise any of these gentlemen?

 8        A.   I think this is Milorad Vucelic to the far left, but...

 9        Q.   And who is he?

10        A.   I think that he used to be the director of the radio television,

11     but he was in different positions.  I don't know what he's doing now.

12     But for a while I know that he was a director of radio television of

13     Serbia.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it would be good if

15     Mr. Marcussen could recognise this general for us because a general is a

16     general after all.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It's completely inappropriate for the accused to

18     interrupt in this manner.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let Mr. Marcussen

20     do his job.  He is trying to identify people, the person on the far right

21     and someone else, probably a general with a hat or cap.

22             Witness, who is the military person with the military hat, do you

23     know who it is, yes or no?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, one of the

25     generals.  I can see a general's insignia, but I don't know who he is.

Page 14909

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Fair enough.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Okay, I'd like to tender this particular page

 3     from this exhibit.  What I suggest we do is we give -- we'll remove all

 4     the other pages so we're only left with page 11 and then we give this a

 5     number.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're tendering

 7     only page 11 of this document --

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  My apologies, sorry.  No.  We need page 3 and

 9     page 11.  Those are the two pages where the witness identified someone.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 3 and 11.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, pages 3 --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.  What are

13     we now tendering into evidence?  The proof that the witness hasn't

14     identified anyone.  Is Vucelic now important for identification?  The

15     witness doesn't know who the uniformed person with a Red Beret is nor who

16     the general is nor who the person in the background is.  The person has

17     only recognised Milorad Vucelic because he saw him often on television.

18     And how is that relevant now?  And Frenki Simatovic was recognised based

19     on photographs in the newspapers, maybe after he was arrested and brought

20     to The Hague because earlier there were no photographs of him in the

21     newspapers.  I also saw him for the first time here in Scheveningen.  How

22     can this be tendered into evidence?  I have been in trial in courtrooms

23     before, but maybe I'm too dumb.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a see.  I've never seen

25     Mr. Simatovic, Mr. Frenki Simatovic.  I have a picture of him, the

Page 14910

 1     witness recognised him, that's one thing.  The witness also recognised

 2     Milorad Vucelic, the director of the television at the time.  Fine.

 3     What's the purpose of all this?  Well, I believe that

 4     Mr. Frenki Simatovic is mentioned as a member of the JCE, so there is

 5     relevance here.  Now, regarding the director of the television at the

 6     time, there might be a relevance, we don't know.  Pages 3 and 11 are

 7     pages where the witness recognised people.

 8             We need a number, Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P875.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:

11        Q.   VS-037, are you familiar with a person by the name of Pavlo

12     Markovic -- no, Marko Pavlovic?  It's getting late.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When did you get to meet him the first time?

15        A.   I met him in 1991 toward the end of the year in Slavonia,

16     Baranja.

17        Q.   Did -- when you met of him did he refer to Rade Kostic; and if

18     so, how did he address him?

19        A.   They knew each other because Rade Kostic was an official of the

20     MUP of the RSK, and he addressed him as boss or chief.

21        Q.   And if we can briefly go into closed session.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's move to closed

23     session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 14911











11 Page 14911 redacted. Private session.















Page 14912

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with a person with a name of Ratko Vidovic?

 5        A.   Yes.  He worked for the MUP of Serbia at the time when I was also

 6     with the BiH MUP.

 7        Q.   And where did he work?

 8        A.   Zvornik is divided by the Drina River, as you know, on the right

 9     bank there is Mali Zvornik, on the left bank there is Zvornik, and he had

10     the same position as I on my side.  He was the chief of police of Mali

11     Zvornik.

12        Q.   Did he have contacts with Marko Pavlovic?

13        A.   In principle, I introduced them.  He and Marko Pavlovic -- or

14     rather, Pavlovic was in Zvornik about a month before the confrontation

15     broke out so everybody knew him.  So Ratko Vidovic also knew him and we

16     met several times.

17        Q.   Did Vidovic at some point tell you why Pavlovic had come to

18     Zvornik?

19        A.   No, I don't think Vidovic knew that.  Vidovic worked in public

20     security and I believe such information was not accessible to him.

21        Q.   Do you know why Pavlovic had come to Zvornik?

22        A.   I knew that because I was the first SDS member who established

23     contact with him.  He came to help us should a crisis situation arise

24     because he already had such experience from Croatia.  And the true

25     reasons were known to him and Kostic probably.

Page 14913

 1        Q.   Was Pavlovic from -- from what you could judge, was he also a

 2     member of the Serbian State Security Service?

 3        A.   Believe me, nobody there knew what -- his role there.  Only --

 4     the only thing we knew was that he had excellent relations with Kostic

 5     and people from the state security, and even better relations with people

 6     from the military and the JNA officers from whom we procured weapons to

 7     arm the members of the SDS.  And they were actually -- they actually had

 8     the status of reserve JNA troops, but they were practically exclusively

 9     Serbs.

10        Q.   And in your statement from 2008 it says in paragraph 44:

11             "Vidovic told me that Pavlovic had been sent from Serbia to

12     control things in Zvornik."

13        A.   No, Vidovic never said that to me.  This may have been a slip of

14     the tongue, but he never said that to me.  I believe that Vidovic

15     couldn't have any influence there.  Marko Pavlovic in my opinion at the

16     time was a much fatter cat than anybody in Mali Zvornik.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Your Honours, please

18     look at paragraph 44 and you will see which means the OTP uses now.  The

19     witness said himself that he signed all this in a hurry.  So the witness

20     cannot be focused on a good hundred paragraphs once he's signing,

21     especially bearing in mind that he didn't want to give evidence at all.

22     And now things are being put to him and the witness doesn't know that he

23     signed it.  Paragraph 44, please.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on paragraph 44 you

25     said at the time, I quote:

Page 14914

 1             "Vidovic told me that Pavlovic had been sent from Serbia ..."

 2             Now, with hindsight you're saying that there was an error, that

 3     he never told you this?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Vidovic never said that to me

 5     and this really is a mistake.  Vidovic at the time was small fry compared

 6     to Pavlovic.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's 7.00 p.m.  We

 8     have to stop.  Mr. Marcussen, I believe that you have 30 minutes left for

 9     tomorrow -- 35 minutes, exactly.  Mr. Seselj will have two hours

10     tomorrow.  I hope there won't be too many objections from both sides, so

11     we can finish tomorrow because I'm sure the witness has other things to

12     do.  He must go back to work.  So we will finish this witness's testimony

13     tomorrow.  We lost some time -- we wasted a lot of time through

14     objections which were totally irrelevant.

15             Witness, we will see you tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.  Of course you

16     must not talk to anyone about what is happening at the moment, notably

17     since there are some passages that are in closed session.  So please be

18     very careful and say nothing.  We don't want a newspaper to publish the

19     entire transcript of what was said in closed session, of course not.  I

20     wish you all a pleasant evening and we will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

23                           January, 2010, at 7.01 p.m.