1 Wednesday, 27 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
11 Today is Wednesday, the 27th of January, 2010. Let me first
12 greet Mr. Dabic, our witness; Ms. Biersay, Mr. Marcussen, and the entire
13 OTP team; good afternoon to you, Mr. Seselj, not to forgot of course the
14 interpreters and all the people assisting us in our work.
15 Sorry for the slight delay. It's just that the previous hearing
16 finished a little late, which is why we are starting with a few minutes'
18 Ms. Biersay, based on our calculation you still have 40 minutes
19 left. In other words, we'll try to stay within the time-limits. You may
21 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: VOJISLAV DABIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dabic. I wanted to follow-up on some
1 questions that were put to you yesterday by the Bench. Specifically, I'd
2 like to turn your attention to the summer of 1991, around the time when
3 you joined the SDS
5 A. That is correct. Yes, I was at this gathering, and I joined the
6 Serbian Democratic Party. It was the only party that was predominant in
7 the Neretva River Valley
8 Muslim people had their SDA, the Party of Democratic Action; and the
9 Croatian people had the HDZ.
10 Q. Now, that rally, from what I understand, started in Mostar and
11 then went to Nevesinje -- sorry, the gathering, it started in Mostar and
12 then it went to Nevesinje; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, you understood it well. The meeting at Mostar was at the
14 football-pitch of the football club Velez. There were about 3.000 people
15 and the weather was very stormy, whereas the meeting in Nevesinje took
16 place somewhat later. I don't remember the date, but I was present at
17 that meeting too.
18 Q. Approximately how many people attended the gathering in the
19 Nevesinje town square in that period in 1991?
20 A. Well, in Nevesinje perhaps 500 people more, so 3.500, something
21 like that.
22 MS. BIERSAY: If I could ask the Registry for what has been
23 marked as MFI
24 English it's page 8, the B/C/S will be page 6, and it begins with -- the
25 paragraph begins with:
1 "The main speakers present were ..." to find the B/C/S. The next
2 page, please.
3 Q. Now, directing your attention to the paragraph with the number
4 15- to 20.000 Serbs which is a paragraph up from the bar. I'm showing
5 you this because in your 2000 statement to the OTP you said that there
6 were approximately -- you estimated that there were approximately 15- to
7 20.000 Serbs at that rally. Does that refresh your recollection about
8 which --
9 A. Well, you see, the rally was in front of the sports hall, and in
10 front of that sports hall there were about three and a half thousand men,
11 maybe 4.000. But the others were probably walking around town and the
12 surroundings, but in my estimate there were about 3.500 people in front
13 of the city hall because the square there is not really big.
14 Q. So where were the other 15 -- the other people that you describe
15 in your statement?
16 A. Well, they were probably in Nevesinje in the various coffee bars
17 in Nevesinje and the surroundings, because I stayed there for about an
18 hour, an hour and a half, and then I left. And we were expecting -- I'm
19 sorry, we were expecting Radovan Karadzic to arrive, Krajisnik, and
20 Koljevic, but I left with my colleague. And then maybe later on the
21 number increased to 10- or 15.000.
22 Q. Well, I'm asking you why you said that there were 15- to 20.000
23 Serbs at this rally in Nevesinje.
24 A. When I returned with my friend to Mostar, we learnt that the
25 number of people did go up to 15- to 20.000. In the immediate vicinity
1 of the sports hall there was the football stadium, and the stadium can
2 take 10- to 15.000 people.
3 Q. From the national SDS
4 that you're speaking about?
5 A. There was Radovan Karadzic, Nikola Krajisnik, Koljevic, and the
6 president at the time of the municipality of Nevesinje
7 Q. And do you know someone by the name of Krsto Savic?
8 A. Krsto Savic, I do know him very well. I know that he's from
9 Nevesinje and he's married, or rather, his wife --
10 Q. Let me be more precise. Do -- you are familiar with someone
11 named Krsto Savic. Are you saying that you know him personally?
12 A. I never had any personal contact with him, but I do know him. I
13 know he worked in the police and I would see him, and I was going to say
14 that I know his wife very well because she's from Mostar.
15 Q. What position did he hold during the time-period of -- in 1992?
16 A. In 1992 he was chief of the civilian police in Nevesinje, and
17 before that he held that post too, head of the police station.
18 Q. Did he -- was he present at this rally that you just described to
19 the members of the Trial Chamber?
20 A. Yes, normally he was. Yes.
21 Q. Why do you say "normally"?
22 A. If he is chief of the police station, the police had to attend to
23 secure the rallies, so as to prevent any incident from occurring.
24 Because in those days, apart from the Orthodox people in Nevesinje - to
25 put it that way - there were people of other ethnicities too. There were
1 Muslims and Croats.
2 Q. Arsen Grahovac, could you tell us whether or not he attended the
3 rally you just described?
4 A. I think he did. I don't remember, but I think he did because it
5 was very crowded and I wasn't close to the stage to see everyone there.
6 But on the loud-speaker system they announced the arrival of guests.
7 Q. Did you hear his arrival being announced?
8 A. I didn't hear it because he's a local. He's from Nevesinje. In
9 those days he wasn't that important. So Radovan Karadzic, Krajisnik, and
10 Koljevic were far more significant at the time.
11 Q. In very brief terms, what was the general message about the
12 situation that Serbs faced?
13 A. I really do not remember, but I think -- no, I don't think. I'm
14 a hundred percentage sure that at this gathering or rally - as you call
15 it - there was no call for a conflict against the non-Serb population in
16 eastern Herzegovina
17 Q. What did they say about the situation that Serbs faced?
18 A. I cannot remember, but I think -- as I was saying, they weren't
19 inciting any kind of conflict or war or saying that these people should
20 be expelled --
21 Q. I understand, I understand. You're saying that you don't
22 remember what they said about the situation that Serbs faced at this
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Let's -- thank you. At this rally were there officials
1 from surrounding villages or towns as well?
2 A. Well, you see, mostly people from the surrounding villages came,
3 such as Bileca, Gacko, or Trebinje. There -- the presidents of those
4 municipalities. These are not villages, these are towns, so they were
5 there, yes.
6 Q. And when you say "presidents" of these towns, what do you mean
7 presidents, presidents of what?
8 A. In our country we usually call them town mayors. For instance,
9 the town mayor of Nevesinje, the town mayor of Trebinje or the
10 president -- it's easier to say the president of the municipality because
11 Trebinje is a municipality; it's not a big town.
12 Q. The surrounding villages that you just mentioned, were they
13 predominantly Serb were they predominantly something else?
14 A. To a large extent they were Serb, but the places I mentioned were
15 inhabited predominantly by Serb Orthodox inhabitants, but there were also
16 Muslims living there.
17 Q. I'd like to move from 1991, and now I'd like to direct your
18 attention to the time-frame of May to June of 1992. You describe for the
19 Trial Chamber that at some point in May of 1992 that you joined the
20 Mostar TO; is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. For what part of Mostar?
23 A. For the eastern part of Mostar where I lived, the eastern part of
24 the town, because the town of Mostar
25 you have the eastern and the western part, so I was in the eastern part
1 of the town.
2 Q. And did that TO have a predominant ethnicity, the people in that
3 TO, what were they?
4 A. As far as I know and as far as I can remember, to the best of my
5 recollection, there were some Muslims and some Croat inhabitants too, not
6 in large numbers. The predominant ethnicity was Serb.
7 Q. With respect to Mostar, could you tell us where Podvelezje is in
8 relation to Mostar and Nevesinje?
9 A. Podvelezje in relation to Mostar and Nevesinje is below
10 Mount Velez
11 kilometres away; however, Mount Velez
12 part of the town. So it is more or less on the road between Mostar and
14 Q. Now, in your statement - and I won't go through it - you describe
15 many factors that were in Mostar. Was there an aluminium factory in
17 A. In Mostar in the western part of the town -- or rather, in the
18 southern part of the town in the direction of the coast there was a large
19 aluminium factory that was operating rather well and it co-operated with
20 the aluminium factory in Sibenik, Split, et cetera.
21 Q. Did that factory make military products?
22 A. The aluminium factory in Mostar did not manufacture military
23 products. It was simply aluminium that they were manufacturing.
24 Q. What was the name of that factory?
25 A. It was called the Aluminium Kombinat or combined factory.
1 Q. Have you heard of a factory by the name of Sokol, S-o-k-o-l?
2 A. I don't know how to express it. Even small children knew of this
3 factory. Of course I'd heard of the Sokol factory --
4 Q. What is it --
5 A. And while I was -- very well.
6 Q. What kind of factory is it?
7 A. The Sokol factory in Mostar was a military factory manufacturing
8 and making parts for military planes, and it manufactured aircraft and
9 helicopters, planes, and helicopters.
10 Q. Now, you have described in your statement and to the questions
11 posed by the Trial Chamber what Seselj's men meant to you, and I don't
12 want to go through that again. What I do want to ask you is that: Are
13 you aware that a man by the name of Branislav Vakic was made a Vojvoda in
14 part because of his contributions in Serbian Herzegovina in May and June
15 1992? Did you know that? Did you know of that?
16 A. No, I hear of that man for the first time.
17 Q. And do you know that Branislav Vakic has talked about being in
18 Nevesinje with the forces there? Are you aware of that? Are you aware
19 of it?
20 A. Madam -- no. How can I be aware of that when I don't know the
22 Q. No, I understand. I have to --
23 A. I never heard the name.
24 Q. I have to get you to say yes or no before I can ask the next
25 question. Because you say no, then I'll go on.
1 A. No, no.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The
3 witness didn't say "no." He said he doesn't know. It's one thing when
4 he says he doesn't know, and it's another matter if he says no. The
5 witness didn't say that Vakic wasn't there because we have been saying
6 for some time that Vakic was there, but the witness said that he didn't
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's now on record.
9 Please continue, Ms. Biersay.
10 MS. BIERSAY: How much time do I have available, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.
12 Can the Registrar tell us. I think you must have taken 20
13 minutes already, so I guess you have about 20 minutes left -- actually 15
14 so says the Registrar.
15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
16 Q. For how -- just to be clear, for how long were you active in the
17 Mostar TO from May to June, just so we have that perfectly clear in the
19 A. To make it quite clear for you, I was there from May until the
20 13th of June, when I was wounded and transported to the hospital in
22 in Meljine near Herceg Novi, where I spent two months for rehabilitation.
23 I'm really sorry I don't have the document to prove to you that this is
24 the truth.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me return to
1 something that was said earlier on because it may turn out to be
2 extremely important. Regarding Branislav Vakic, did you know him or did
3 you not know him?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, believe me, it is the
5 first time in this Tribunal for me to hear of that man. It really is the
6 first time.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is why I was
8 asking you that question. We have a document that has been admitted,
9 Exhibit 1841 - I don't have the exact number - but we have all the
10 Vojvodas that were appointed by Mr. Seselj because we can see his name
11 here and this one is under number 3. And I have also his record. It was
12 said that he was a unit commander, a Chetnik Serbian unit commander in
13 Serbian Herzegovina
14 is the question put by Madam Prosecutor. He took part in the battles of
15 Klepci, Tasovcici, and Mostar. He also commanded units of the Chetnik
16 Serbian Movement in Skelani and took part in final operation in Brcko,
17 Zitnic, and Drnis. Now, I'm interested in this period from May to June
18 1992. We have Klepci, this is close to Mostar, Tasovcici. Did you know
19 that there were -- that there was fighting there?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Antonetti,
21 during those two months that I spent in Mostar, I went to Nevesinje only
22 once and that is the moment I was wounded. But you are right, there were
23 battles in Tasovcici and Klepci. But regarding this individual that you
24 say Dr. Vojislav Seselj appointed a Vojvoda, I hear of him for the first
25 time, truly. Please believe me.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. There was ongoing
2 fighting over there, but who commanded the troops? Was it the TO? The
3 VRS? JNA? According to you, who commanded all these troops?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the commander of
5 the defence in the Neretva River Valley
6 well, Salakovac is about 17 kilometres away from Mostar on the road
7 towards Sarajevo
8 Branko Simic from Zitomislic, which is a very small locality. So he was
9 the main commander for the entire Neretva river valley.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. According to you
11 the name of the commander was Branko Simic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure. And he
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- death, he died a natural death.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to know who this
17 commander reported to. Did he report to the municipality under -- for TO
18 reasons? Did he report to the JNA? To the commander of the VRS, the
19 notorious General Mladic? Who did this person report to? Mr. Seselj?
20 Mr. Karadzic? Who did he report to?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was subordinated to the Serb
22 Democratic Party because he was in the Presidency of the Serb Democratic
23 Party too. So it is the party that appointed him commander, or rather,
24 made him in charge of the defence of the Neretva River Valley
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. This is
1 important. You are saying that he was subordinated to the Serb
2 Democratic Party. Who was the president of this party?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think -- well, excuse me
4 for my language, but I think that even the birds and trees know, everyone
5 knows that it was Dr. Radovan Karadzic. At the time he was president.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you
7 correctly, you say that everyone knows it. Very well. But it has to be
8 on record. If I understand you correctly, we have Radovan Karadzic,
9 president of the Serbian Radical Party --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Democratic Party, interpreter's correction.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- appointing as person to be
12 in charge of the TO this person called Branko Simic, heading the TO; is
13 that it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's clearly noted
16 on the record, and if I understood correctly there is fighting, there is
17 ongoing fighting, there are units, and maybe among these units we could
18 find this famous Branislav Vakic but we don't know that, but that's the
19 way the structure is organised.
20 Ms. Biersay.
21 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, based on your questions, I'd advise
22 the Trial Chamber that 65 ter number 1910 in your binders also pertains
23 to Branislav Vakic. It specifically is a -- I believe it is an October
24 12th, 1993, transcript from the Serbian Assembly session, and it was
25 republished in Mr. Seselj's book "The Hard Fall of the Government," and
1 in that exhibit at page 4 going to page 5, it describes what Mr. Vakic
2 says about his participation in Nevesinje and in the Podvelezje area.
3 Now, as this witness says he doesn't know him, I won't be putting it to
4 him. But should the Trial Chamber find it helpful, I would tender that
5 into evidence to assist the Court. And in conjunction with that, there
6 is another exhibit which currently does have an MNA status, and that is
7 the accompanying certificate that he talks about with respect to
8 Podvelezje, and that is MNA P649 and it should be a supplement to your
9 binder as 65 ter number 1636, to assist the Court.
10 And also to assist the Court, the order that you just described
11 to the witness is in evidence as Exhibit P217.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. This is an absolutely
13 impermissible method of conducting a cross-examination and tendering
14 documents into evidence. Goran Stoparic was the first prosecution
15 witness that they called, and he testified that he was in Vakic's unit.
16 He testified that as a member of Vakic's unit he came to Nevesinje.
17 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, we object to Mr. Seselj testifying.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- he took part in the fighting --
19 MS. BIERSAY: If he has an objection, he --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't let her interrupt me. You
21 see how she is shouting at me, Ms. Biersay. That is impermissible. You
22 would have thrown me out of the courtroom if I was speaking that way.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, up until now
24 everything ran very smoothly and you behaved yourself extremely well up
25 until now. The cross -- you will soon be cross-examining this witness
1 because Ms. Biersay is almost done with her own cross. You will be able
2 to check things with this witness, even if there are things he doesn't
3 know. There are things he know, and you can mention all this during your
4 cross-examination. So please let Ms. Biersay finish her own
5 cross-examination, and then you'll have plenty of time --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Biersay tendered
7 some documents into evidence and I am objecting to that proposal of
8 her's, and it is my right to object as soon as a proposal is being made.
9 If you are denying me that right and if you are calling my current
10 behaviour indecent, then you can throw me out of the courtroom and I
11 won't mind. As soon as you tell me that you're throwing me out I'm going
12 to get up and walk out, but I am right on this: As soon as Ms. Biersay
13 makes a proposal, I have the right to object to that proposal. I am
14 explaining why it is that I object to her proposal, and Ms. Biersay did
15 not do that in a timely fashion.
16 This is a witness who had never heard of Branislav Vakic, and
17 then tendering documents related to Vakic ten pages long in relation to
18 this witness, whereas you had here as a Prosecution witness a man whose
19 commander Branislav Vakic was, and that was the opportunity to tender
20 these documents. That is why I say it's impermissible. As a matter of
21 fact, it is in my interest to have that admitted into evidence, but for
22 matters -- as a matter of principle, I am opposing the admission of that
23 document into evidence. And now you can throw me out of the courtroom.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, no one wants to
25 chase you out of this courtroom; absolutely not. We're doing our utmost
1 to make sure that you stay in the courtroom. And you're right,
2 Ms. Biersay was tendering a document and you can raise objections, which
3 is what you did, fine. But I thought your objection had to do with the
4 substance of the matter and not with the admission of the document,
5 especially since one of the documents among these mentioned has already
6 been admitted anyway.
7 Ms. Biersay, if I understood you correctly, all the documents you
8 mentioned were documents that you were tendering. I hadn't noted that,
9 but now I found that out, and Mr. Seselj raised an objection. Is this
10 what you really asked?
11 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, I'm not eliminating that as a
12 possibility, but my offer to the Court was to bring it to the Court's
13 attention because of the Court's questions. And the Court correctly
14 seized on the value and role of Mr. Vakic, and I am advising the Court
15 that 65 ter number 1910 and 1636 are pertinent to the Court's questions.
16 Should the Court deem it appropriate, we would - and certainly the Court
17 can also - move it into evidence.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are not
19 tendering this document as of now. Very well, please pursue.
20 MS. BIERSAY:
21 Q. I'd like to in the time we have left move to the video that we
22 saw yesterday, and the entire video as I understand it has been admitted
23 as P -- sorry, MFI
24 ask the Court to be assigned either -- to be assigned numbers apart from
25 the 40-minute one that has this number.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, yesterday we saw
2 two videos, two clips, one which was an interview of Grahovac and the
3 other one had to do with interviews between a journalist and a number of
4 soldiers at night. So we need two numbers, two MFI numbers first of
5 course, because the Trial Chamber will rule on this later on after the
6 cross-examination. So could we please have two numbers for these two
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The first clip will be P886
9 marked for identification, and the second one will be P887, MFI as well.
10 MS. BIERSAY:
11 Q. Mr. Dabic, could I confirm with you what I believe you said
12 yesterday was that the Ravna Gora -- is it a restaurant or a tavern in
14 A. Well, it's a sort of tavern --
15 Q. Okay, that's fine --
16 A. -- cafe. The word we use is "gostiona" and over here they say
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did that serve as a base for the Karadjordje
20 A. I doubt it. I doubt it that it was a base.
21 Q. So you don't know?
22 A. No.
23 MS. BIERSAY: Now if I could please have the clip A that we
24 played yesterday, and if we could go to one hour -- the time code one
25 hour, 15 minutes, and 25 seconds.
1 Q. Now, again this is MFI
2 the caption before you? Can you read the -- what it says?
3 A. Of course I can. Of course I can.
4 Q. And what does it say?
5 A. Let me tell you loud and clear what is written here in Cyrillic
6 letters is: Arsen Grahovac, commander of the Serb Volunteer Detachment.
7 However, the word "Karadjordje" is missing and it was written yesterday.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours, objection
9 Judges, this question is wrong. The Prosecutor is supposed to ask
10 whether the witness recognises the man on the monitor, not ask whether he
11 can read this out. Let's hear the witness whether he can recognise this
12 man as being Arsen Grahovac or not. That is the only relevant question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is this supposed to prove,
15 that the witness knows all the letters of the alphabet?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, witness, I thought I
17 understood that you had seen him once, this Arsen Grahovac, so that it
18 was so obvious that it went without saying. But since we have an
19 objection, could you please tell us whether you had seen Arsen Grahovac
20 and whether you recognise him here on -- whether it's him that we see on
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this picture here in front
23 of me on the monitor, on my right-hand side there is the Yutel journalist
24 of this Yugoslav television. I don't know his name. And on the
25 left-hand side is the late Arsen Grahovac.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Ms. Biersay asked you to read the caption out loud. Could you
3 please proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Arsen Grahovac, commander of the
5 Serb Volunteer Detachment; however, I repeat yet again that word missing
6 is "Karadjordje" and last night it was written there as far as I can
7 remember. And I think that I do remember that well. It was actually
8 written there.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, it's -- would seem
10 that yesterday the word "Karadjordje" was on the caption, and between
11 yesterday and this afternoon this word disappeared. I don't know.
12 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, we can continue --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you have the footage --
14 MS. BIERSAY: -- I'm addressing the Court's question, we can play
15 just a few seconds after and perhaps that will address the witness. But
16 for now on the record is the witness reading --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. BIERSAY:
20 Q. While we're addressing that technical issue, let me ask you this.
21 You just read this -- translated this as being the Serb Volunteer
22 Detachment. Was that associated with some other group as far as you
24 A. As far as I know, it wasn't. I don't think so. I don't think
25 that there was some other group. As for this footage that you showed
1 last night and right this moment, that is what I watched on television
2 too. I remember that very well as if it were right now. However, I
3 think that the other part of the footage was a bit dark -- well, it was
4 at night-time.
5 Q. Let me stop you there.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MS. BIERSAY: For technical reasons we may have to play the
8 one-minute-and-30-second clip in its entirety.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. BIERSAY:
11 Q. Mr. Dabic, does that refresh your recollection about whether you
12 saw on the screen something that said "Karadjordje"?
13 A. As far as I can remember, I did see it last night.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, I listened to the
15 translation in French very carefully. We have excellent interpreters
16 translating from B/C/S into French. While listening to the late
17 Arsen Grahovac, I can tell you that he never said that it was a group of
18 volunteers. He said the following: These are armed civilians. It is an
19 armed group. He said the Serbs armed themselves. I never heard in the
20 translation I received from the B/C/S-French booth that he was a
21 commander of a group of Serb volunteers. Therefore, the caption as it is
22 does not seem to correspond to what is actually said in the interview.
23 MS. BIERSAY: And that is a question for the witness.
24 Q. Did you know Grahovac to be involved with this Serbian volunteer
25 detachment that was listed under his name? Is that correct what they
1 wrote under his name?
2 A. Well, the Judge put it very well, and of course I understood
3 everything he said. There is interpretation. What was written there,
4 Arsen Grahovac, the commander of the Serb Volunteer Detachment, that can
5 just be rigged by that TV, Yutel --
6 Q. Let me ask you this --
7 A. -- and that was to a large extent --
8 Q. Did you -- did they say that he was a member of a Chetnik
9 Movement that you could hear?
10 A. I didn't, and my hearing really is very good.
11 MS. BIERSAY: If we could -- if we could now move to clip B.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. BIERSAY: And now playing one hour, 19 minutes, and 19
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. I am not receiving
16 translation in French. I can see that there is an English translation,
17 but I'd like to have directly B/C/S into French. The interpreter forgot
18 to turn on the mike. So let's start again, please.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MS. BIERSAY: Did the Court receive that interpretation in
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard the following
23 sentence, which is extremely important. One of the participants on the
24 screen says: We only recognise Martic and Seselj and no one else. This
25 is what I heard. We only recognise, which doesn't mean that we are
1 members of Martic's men or Seselj's men, but we only recognise. And this
2 is a translation we received directly from B/C/S into French.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the
5 Witness, you don't know whether Arsen Grahovac commanded this
6 group, yes or no, you don't know, do you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, what group,
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This group of armed civilians
10 who suddenly went to war. As far as I'm concerned, I believe that these
11 were volunteers. I would like to know whether you said that you did not
12 know that he commanded this group?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that properly, that the late
14 Arsen Grahovac had nothing to do with the Chetniks or some Chetnik
15 detachment of volunteers. He was commander of the Karadjordje
16 Detachment. However, this footage --
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let's set the video aside for a
18 minute. I would like to know the following. What exactly is this group
19 which you called "Karadjordje"? Could you qualify this group? Could you
20 tell us who made it up, who were part -- which kind of -- what kind of
21 people were in this group?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were mostly people from the
23 territory of Nevesinje
24 organised themselves, who were huntsmen and had hunting weapons. And as
25 this -- one of these boys said, they had some leftover from their
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] According to what I understand
3 personally, myself, those are volunteers.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, so you are right.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us be very specific because
7 this may have huge repercussions. My colleague said as I understood they
8 were volunteers, but in your view were they volunteers hailing from
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has been proven that they were
11 locals because this was before the outbreak of the conflict, quite a bit
12 before it, when village guards were organised. 100 per cent this has
13 nothing to do with volunteers from Serbia or anywhere else, nothing at
14 all to do with them.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was happening
16 almost a year before the outbreak of the war.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in your view, when Judge
18 Lattanzi said "volunteers," you agreed with her but you specified that
19 they were local volunteers, people from the area, civilians who joined
20 that group and they hailed from that area. They were not from Belgrade
21 or Serbia
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Far from Belgrade and Serbia
23 from it. These were people from the local area, the surroundings of
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have no problem with that. I
1 just wanted to know whether they were volunteers or not.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So from Nevesinje municipality. Do
3 you understand me?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All the Judges
6 Ms. Biersay.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the interpreter did
8 not interpret what Judge Lattanzi just said, and you have it in the
9 transcript in English. Let me just say that I'm constantly dissatisfied
10 with the interpreter, especially the one who's doing it now, because he
11 said "Klepce" instead of "Klepci." He couldn't pronounce Drnis, though I
12 see that he is a Croat so he should know the names of Drnis and so on.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Judge Lattanzi
14 spoke twice. Which part are you now referring to that was allegedly not
15 properly translated. The second time she spoke is on page 22, lines 23
16 and 24.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me be specific when I said
18 what I said. I spoke and it may be that the interpreter into English
19 misheard or it may be that the interpreter into French did not hear me
20 properly because my microphone was not on. I was actually speaking to
21 the Judge, so no problem with me if this is now in the transcript. But
22 this is not the interpreter's fault. It's my fault because I did not
23 turn my mike on.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this was not
25 interpreted for me "I have no problem with this, I just wanted to know
1 whether they were volunteers or not." This is in the transcript and this
2 was not interpreted for me.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I think the problem
4 arises from the first time Judge Lattanzi spoke when she spoke about
5 volunteers and it may be that it was not properly interpreted then. But
6 I think that we now -- we all are in the clear. That's at least what I
8 Please, Ms. Biersay.
9 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, I understand that I have about five
10 minutes left, and with the Court's leave what I would respectfully
11 request is that I reserve it. There are certain issues that the Bench
12 covered that I don't believe is necessary to cover again with the
13 witness, but depending on the nature of Mr. Seselj's cross-examination I
14 would ask for some latitude in using that five minutes as a kind of --
15 I'm not sure what to call it, but perhaps re-direct.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, but, Ms. Biersay, you
17 were trained in the common-law system. You know better than I do that as
18 a rule when a witness is called by the Trial Chamber and becomes a
19 Chamber witness, nobody can ask a question after the Trial Chamber.
20 That's one possibility. The Chamber may decide to reduce the duration of
21 the time reserved for questions. We said that you had one hour and a
22 half. Mr. Seselj had the same time. You now would like to keep those
23 five minutes just in case. I'm going to ask my colleagues. I have no
24 problem with that.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we say that as a rule you're
2 not allowed to have any time after the cross-examination, but since you
3 have five minutes left you may use it if you want to use it later on.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honours. Excuse me, thank you. My
5 mike wasn't on. And I could make submissions on it later, but in the
6 interests of time I simply want to say that we will move for the
7 admission of the witness's 2000 statement as well as his 2004 statement
8 that was -- that were made to the Office of the Prosecutor, specifically
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as I understand it, you're
11 done with your cross-examination with your questions; is that right?
12 MS. BIERSAY: You understood correctly, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think it's best
14 to have a break now, a 20-minute break. In this way Mr. Seselj will be
15 able to start after the break with his questions because he's going to
16 have an hour and a half at his disposal.
17 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
20 Mr. Seselj has the floor for his cross-examination.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dabic, you have given two statements for The
23 Hague Prosecutors; isn't that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And for the team assisting my Defence, you have already made
1 eight statements; is that so?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You gave me statements that I needed for the cross-examination of
4 some other witnesses; do you remember that?
5 A. Perfectly.
6 Q. Your first statement consists of 39 typed pages. If I'm not
7 mistaken, that is the lengthiest statement that appeared in these
8 proceedings against me, and I'm impressed that you demonstrated
9 encyclopedic knowledge about the events in eastern Herzegovina during the
10 war. In that whole statement consisting of 39 closely typed pages, only
11 in three places do you mention either my name or Seseljevci or volunteers
12 of the Serbian Radical Party; isn't that so?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Now let us see where you do so. The first time you mention my
15 name is in connection with the video-clips that we viewed a moment ago.
16 These videos are -- date back to July 1991, as we were told by the
17 Prosecution; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That was a time when there were no armed conflicts in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, except for some confrontation in western Herzegovina
21 between the JNA and the Croatian rebels; is that so?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the Serbs learned that the surrounding Muslims and Croats
24 were arming and they also started to procure weapons and to hold night
25 guard duty; is that so?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Dabic, you speak the same language, but
3 nothing can be interpreted to the benefit of the Chamber if you overlap.
4 So please, please do not answer the questions put to you by Mr. Seselj
5 before a little moment has elapsed. And if you are observant you will
6 see that on your screen in front of you there's the rolling text and
7 there is the cursor, and when the cursor stops moving that's the time
8 when the interpretation is completed. The usher will help you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Shall I continue?
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So wait for it to stop and then answer.
11 And, Mr. Seselj, I don't need to repeat it to you but also take
12 it easy.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. On page 11 you mention my name for the first time and you say
15 that these men who belonged to the group of Arsen Grahovac, Karadjordje,
16 you called them a group; later on you called them a unit. Am I right,
17 they were still a group here?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have your statement?
20 I would like someone to give you both your statements for the
21 Prosecution which would facilitate things because I only have one copy.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Are you giving it in B/C/S?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only have it in Serbian. I am
24 not familiar with B/C/S. I never learned it and I don't believe I ever
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If you only need the Serbian
2 copy, I don't need it.
3 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Your Honour, if I may. I believe
4 Mr. Seselj is referring to the 2000 statement that was given to the OTP.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what we're talking
6 about, and I'm going through that statement.
7 MS. BIERSAY: And that -- right. And that's available in e-court
8 at -- now is MFI
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I thought it was one of the
10 eight statements provided to your Defence team. Sorry.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So here you refer to a group, not to a formed unit. A group of
13 men had armed themselves and are holding night guard duty. Am I right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And we saw that Arsen Grahovac was wearing civilian clothes.
16 He's not in uniform; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we saw that one of those armed men says that they don't trust
19 anyone more or less and that they only recognise Martic and Seselj. Did
20 you hear him say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that is what you stated in your statement, but they said they
23 support Karadzic, Seselj, and Martic and their efforts. So it's not as
24 precise in the statement as it is in the clip. They never mentioned
25 Karadzic, did they?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You remember that in the summer of 1991 there were no armed
3 conflicts between Serbs and Muslims?
4 A. Do you mean in eastern Herzegovina
5 Q. In the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 A. Of course not.
7 Q. But --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute. Let me
9 compare page 11 with the video we saw. It's almost identical, but
10 there's a slight problem. In the video there is no mention of
11 Mr. Karadzic, but here we have the name of Karadzic. Why is that? Can
12 you explain?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why Karadzic is being mentioned?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember well that on one
16 occasion with a friend of mine I was going to Nevesinje and I was
17 stopped, and this friend is from Nevesinje and he lives there. And I was
18 stopped at a barricade and they asked for our documents, and they
19 mentioned Karadzic as well. But Dr. Seselj and Martic were mentioned
20 only in the video-clip. Actually, when they stopped us they asked us:
21 Are you for Karadzic? Until they saw our documents. And when they saw
22 our documents, they let us go.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
25 Q. In the summer of 1991, was I popular among Serbs in
2 A. Well, I think the chances were 50/50.
3 Q. What do you mean chances?
4 A. You were for some and not for others.
5 Q. But at least there was one person among these night guards who
6 considered me to be popular; is that right?
7 A. Yes, and I apologise. I think I know that man. He had a
8 nickname, Usro.
9 Q. Why such a nickname?
10 A. I don't know. I really don't know. It's a funny nickname.
11 Q. Among Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, had they heard that
12 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party had been engaged in various
13 places within the Federal Republic of Croatia in defence of Serb
15 Could you please give me yes or no answers if possible.
16 A. Yes, we saw that on television.
17 Q. So did you learn on television of the great victory of the
18 volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party on the 2nd of May in Borovo Selo
19 against the Croatian police and paramilitary forces?
20 A. I just heard of the victory of the Yugoslav People's Army.
21 Q. On the 2nd of May?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who did the JNA defeat on the 2nd of May?
24 A. In Borovo Selo. It couldn't defeat anyone in Borovo Selo. It
25 was a Serb village in Croatia
1 Q. Yes, but the village had been attacked by Croatian policemen and
2 paramilitary forces?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. You don't know, so I won't insist.
5 One man mentions my name and Martic's name, that he supports us.
6 Nice of him. How did you find such an ugly nickname? I don't know. The
7 second time you mention my name is on page 17, that upon -- at the entry
8 into Mostar you saw a check-point with Seselj's men armed to the teeth
9 and wearing cockades. You heard that volunteers of the Serbian Radical
10 Party during April and May 1992 were in Mostar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you hear who was in command of those volunteers?
13 A. Can I go back to this check-point?
14 Q. Could you please give me brief answers. We'll come back to the
15 check-point. Please answer my questions.
16 A. I didn't hear who was in command.
17 Q. Do you know where General Perisic's headquarters were in Mostar?
18 A. Momcilo Perisic, I think in the southern camp.
19 Q. Do you know that next to his headquarters were volunteers of the
20 Serbian Radical Party, up to 100 strong, and that they were used as an
21 intervention unit that acted upon his orders and went where the situation
22 was most critical?
23 A. Dr. Seselj, I hear this from you for the first time. I heard
24 that they were in the Benkovac settlement in the garrison command, and
25 they didn't walk around town at all, I didn't see them, because they were
1 in an intervention unit and they were sent where they were mostly needed.
2 Q. You heard of Klepci, Prebilovci, Tasovcici, and other Serbian
3 villages that were surrounded. General Perisic sent them there as an
4 intervention unit. So you hadn't heard of that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever hear of Oliver Baret --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going much too fast and
8 I think this is why Ms. Biersay is on her feet. Mr. Seselj, you are
9 speaking much too fast and because of this the villages you mentioned
10 cannot be recorded on the transcript.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did you ever hear of Oliver Denis Baret?
13 A. I did not. I hear it from you.
14 Q. So you're hearing this name from me for the first time as the
15 commander of this unit of volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, the
16 so-called Seseljevci in Mostar?
17 A. Yes, for the first time.
18 Q. But you said that Seselj's men held a check-point and I was
19 surprised by this. What would Seselj's men be doing at the check-point?
20 A. So we're coming back to the check-point. When I got to Mostar,
21 or rather, in Nevesinje and when I started off from Nevesinje - and I
22 said this last night here in court - driving a Renault 4 vehicle, upon
23 the entrance to the town near two petrol stations there were a group of
24 men and I asked the policeman: Who are they? And he said that they were
25 Seseljevci. I didn't ask where they were from.
1 Q. Was it customary for the military police to hold check-points?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ask yourself what would Seseljevci be doing there?
4 A. It wasn't clear to me.
5 Q. So you were not certain that Seselj's men were holding this
7 A. I don't think they were Seselj's men.
8 Q. But it says that here. So you're not sure about that?
9 A. I heard that from these policemen.
10 Q. And the third place you refer to Seselj's men is on page 23, and
11 you say that in Nevesinje there were about 100 Seselj's men and about 50
12 armed volunteers, et cetera. Do you remember that?
13 A. I do, but those were probably when they were withdrawing from
14 town, when those from the garrison command had withdrawn.
15 Q. But what are Seselj's men doing among the people withdrawing from
16 the garrison?
17 A. This was during the withdrawal from Mostar.
18 Q. Seselj's men withdrew from Mostar when the JNA withdrew, and this
19 had to be before the 25th of May, 1992, and do you know why? Because
20 their commander, Oliver Denis Baret, was with me in Podgorica on the 25th
21 of May. Did you hear that on the 25th of May, 1992, in Podgorica an
22 assassination attempt was made at me, that a Muslim threw a hand-grenade
23 at me after a rally of the Serbian Radical Party?
24 A. I hear of that for the first time.
25 Q. So you didn't hear that Oliver Denis Baret was seriously wounded,
1 that he had several shots in his lower stomach and legs?
2 A. I really don't know about that.
3 Q. Because I've given the book to the Prosecution called the
4 "Podgorica Assassination" with all the court documents showing that
5 Oliver Denis Baret was one of the injured in that assassination together
6 with Miroslav Vukovic. So they withdrew. If Oliver was in Podgorica on
7 the 25th of May, all of them had to have withdrawn by that date.
8 And you never heard of Branislav Vakic?
9 A. Never. I heard that name for the first time here in court.
10 Q. But you heard that there were Seselj's men in Nevesinje; isn't
11 that so?
12 A. I heard only about the garrison command.
13 Q. I have been given a document by the Prosecution, a certificate by
14 General Novica Grusic. Could it be placed on the ELMO, please. It is
15 handwritten by the general on the 28th of June, 1992. Could you put it
16 on the ELMO, please.
17 MS. BIERSAY: I believe this is 65 ter number 1636, to which I
18 referred the Court in discussing 65 ter number 1910 by Branislav Vakic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it on the ELMO.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. If you have not heard of Branislav Vakic, then you have never
22 seen him in Nevesinje?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You hadn't seen Seselj's men in Nevesinje either?
25 A. Dr. Seselj, during my stay in Mostar while I was wounded I went
1 to Nevesinje only once.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. 100 per cent.
4 Q. All right. So you cannot confirm that there were 100 Seselj's
5 men in Nevesinje?
6 A. I cannot.
7 Q. Was this put into your statement just like that?
8 A. Well, I heard that very often from people who went up there. I
9 had no need to go to Nevesinje because my family was in Mostar.
10 Q. Let's read this document.
11 "Certificate by the commander of the war unit 7640 Nevesinje,"
12 that was later the Nevesinje Brigade?
13 A. The 8th Motorised --
14 Q. Confirming that --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.
16 MS. BIERSAY: If possible, Your Honours, could we have the split
17 screen so we could see the English. Thank you. Thank you.
18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
19 Q. That Branislav Vakic took part with 19 others in the liberation
20 of Podvelezje and in crushing the enemy's front line along at
21 Banjdol-Sipovac-Sveta Gora axis. Is that what is written here?
22 A. That's what's written here.
23 Q. Do you know where this Banjdol, Sipovac, and Sveta Gora are?
24 A. Dr. Vojislav Seselj, at the time of the liberation of Podvelezje,
25 I was in the military hospital, and I know where that axis is.
1 Q. That's the only thing I'm interested in. Keep your answers as
2 short as possible because I don't have enough time to put all the
3 questions that I want to put to you.
4 A. I'm going to do my best.
5 Q. I know where you were and I'm not going to miss a beat.
6 A. All right.
7 Q. So you know where that axis or road is?
8 A. Yes he.
9 Q. How far away is it from these localities where these mass crimes
10 occurred later? Can you tell me that?
11 A. Well, in my estimate it must be over 35 kilometres.
12 Q. Over 35 kilometres?
13 A. Perhaps even more than that.
14 Q. All right. Now, it's pretty far away from the place where the
15 crimes had been committed, if I can put it that way?
16 A. That's 100 per cent sure.
17 Q. Throughout your statement there are only these three places where
18 you mention me or Seselj's men, or rather, volunteers of the Serb Radical
19 Party, which is their official name. Am I right now?
20 A. You are quite right.
21 Q. In this statement you describe in detail a large number of crimes
22 that were committed in the territory of Nevesinje
23 1992; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, let us see what it is that you're describing there. First
1 of all, when Dragan Lozo was killed, that is page 20 of your statement on
2 the 13th of June.
3 A. When I was wounded.
4 Q. A few soldiers took military trucks, went to Zalik and took these
5 78 men out of the building, Muslims they were, and about ten of them were
6 taken to someplace where they killed them near Zalik, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Not to go into great detail. All of that is contained in my
9 indictment and I had never heard of these places. You do not mention
10 Seselj's men as any kind of perpetrators here. Am I right?
11 A. You are quite right.
12 Q. The second place is the 14th of June in Vrapcici. 20 Muslim and
13 Croat civilians were arrested, they were taken to the morgue at the city
14 cemetery called Sutina, and after that they were taken to the bank of the
15 Neretva River
16 That is on page 21, and there is no reference there to these people being
17 Seselj's men or volunteers of the Serb Radical Party; right? So this --
18 A. That's right. That's what I heard. The 13th of June when
19 Dragan Lozo got killed, that is when I was wounded.
20 Q. Just keep your answers as short as possible.
21 MS. BIERSAY: For the Court's assistance, it's page 21 and 22 in
22 the English.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Later on when the Muslims killed Colonel Tomislav Pusara, he was
25 a colonel?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. In Podvelezje. Then a group of Serb soldiers carried out a
3 retaliation against the Muslims in the villages of Sopi --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is too fast for
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. -- I don't want to mention all the names of the villages. You
8 did not mention at all that it was Seselj's men or the volunteers of the
9 Serb Radical Party that took part in this?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned some other names --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Everybody's speaking at
13 the same time. Impossible to interpret.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, please observe the instructions of
15 the Court and speak slowly, and Mr. Witness as well.
16 Please continue.
17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You speak about the crime at Teleca Lastva, the massacre that
19 took place there, and you mention many names of the protagonists of that
20 crime. Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men, or rather,
21 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, that is on page 25?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. On page 26 you talk about members of the military
24 police who committed some crimes, organised an ambush, and then allegedly
25 they liquidated 70 civilians. You are mentioning people here who
1 commanded these men. Does this have anything to do with Seselj's men or
2 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Let me not go into all the names that you mention. There are
5 some people there who are deceased and others who are alive. All right.
6 Well, anyway, page 27. There is a reference to a crime against Muslims
7 in the pit called Breza, which is 4 kilometres from Zijemlja. You talked
8 about that as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men or
11 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, rather?
12 A. I heard of that crime when I got out of hospital, and no one
13 mentioned Seselj's men, as you had put it, or the volunteers of the Serb
14 Radical Party.
15 Q. Now, the seventh crime you mention, you say that that is in the
16 territory of the 2nd Light Brigade. You also say who the commander was
17 and who was there and whatever else, and then towards the end of June
18 1992 in the upper field of Nevesinje a mass crime had been
19 committed - let me not go into all the details now. Do you remember
21 A. Of course I do.
22 Q. Does that have anything to do with the volunteers of the Serb
23 Radical Party or Seselj's men?
24 A. That happened yet again at the time when I was in hospital. I
25 heard that they -- that the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party or
1 Seselj's men were not there.
2 Q. On that same page, number 27, you mention Boro Antelj, the
3 volunteers of the SPO
4 identify as members of the SPO
5 A. That is quite right. They were volunteers of the SPO and the Red
7 Q. All right. The ninth crime you mention was yet again in
8 Nevesinje itself. That must have been the expulsion of the Muslims from
9 Nevesinje in June 1992?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You mentioned the men who took part in that. Can you say that
12 there was a single man of Seselj's there, or rather, a single volunteer
13 of the Serb Radical Party?
14 A. I can confirm with certainty that not a single one was there.
15 Q. Then there is also the crime in the pit of Sehovina near
16 Nevesinje, it is 60 metres deep. You spoke of the crime against Muslim
17 civilians there; is that right?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men or
20 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, rather?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Had any one of these crimes been linked to my name or the
23 volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, would there be any reason for you
24 not to say that to The Hague
25 this statement in the year 2000?
1 A. That's right, yes. I did give that statement, yes.
2 Q. You did not have any information that would charge me with -- or
3 the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party with the commission of that
5 A. No way. I was in Mostar and I said very nicely that your men, or
6 rather, the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, Seselj's men, that I
7 had not seen them at all in the town of Mostar. I just heard that they
8 were up there at the garrison command, and this is the first time that I
9 hear of Branislav Vakic.
10 Q. Because he commanded the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party in
12 A. I really don't know.
13 Q. All right. Please. Let us move on. Let's just not waste any
15 A. All right.
16 Q. Do you know where the Braca Fejica Street is in Mostar?
17 A. Full well.
18 Q. Have you ever heard of a man being thrown into a pit there and
19 that a grenade was thrown in after him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was the man?
22 A. I think he was an ethnic Croat and a man of Albanian ethnicity
23 threw the grenade into the pit after him.
24 Q. So if it was a man of Albanian ethnicity then it was a conflict
25 between Croats and Muslims; right?
1 A. No. The man who threw the grenade was a member of the JNA.
2 Q. Does that man have anything to do with Seselj's men?
3 A. How could he because he was an active-duty officer.
4 Q. I have to ask you --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The Judge has already reprimanded you, and he likes complaining
8 noisily about me the most. I have adapted but you seem to be unable to
9 adjust. So don't speak at the same time.
10 The Prosecution has a false witness saying that this man was
11 killed by Seselj's men. That's why I'm asking you. You're from Mostar
12 and that's why I'm asking you about that. Have you heard of the village
13 of Topja or Topla near Mostar?
14 A. Topla?
15 Q. Yes, if I wrote it down properly. Allegedly there is a Muslim
16 village called Topla.
17 A. This is the first time I hear of it. Perhaps it was written
19 Q. And how could it be written?
20 A. Topla?
21 Q. Tople?
22 A. I really don't know about any of that and I am from that area.
23 Q. All right. Have you heard of some Ljubo Kapor?
24 A. Ljubo Kapor?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I think he's from Bileca.
2 Q. And what was he?
3 A. He was in the Bileca volunteers with the late Radovan Radovic.
4 Q. And he got killed?
5 A. Ljubo Kapor.
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. I don't think so.
8 Q. I have information here about a witness saying -- okay, if you
9 don't know about it I'm not going to ask you.
10 A. I really know the one what was in the unit of the late Rade
12 Q. Now explain the following to me.
13 A. Please go ahead.
14 Q. In 2004 the OTP took yet another statement from you, and now in
15 that statement they quote some parts from the first statement and
16 allegedly you then interject, saying, these were Seselj's men, that were
17 Seselj's men, et cetera. Now, it says here that you said on page 2 -- I
18 mean paragraph 2 --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Seselj. You
20 are now moving to the 2004 statement. I would like to stay with the 2000
21 statement. I've asked you this question already, but I'm trying to
22 understand. You spent four days with the OTP back then. We have the
23 very exact dates, on the 10th of November, the 11th of November, the 12th
24 of November, and apparently you returned on the 13th for the statement to
25 be read back to you. So four entire days, which explains why there are
1 so many pages, 39 all in all. So this is a major piece of work that was
2 done then. But when you finished the interview, did you not ask
3 Madame St. Germain what this was going to be used for, in which
4 proceedings? Did she say nothing to you about it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't know?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As much as you can remember - I
9 know it is very difficult to remember because we're now in 2010 and that
10 was in 2000, so that was ten years ago - didn't she tell you that this
11 was going to be for the Seselj trial?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am stating to you with full
13 argumentation that that was not the case.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, well, the statement
15 for me was made up only in 2004. You see how tendentious it is. They
16 just kept putting in my name and linking it to various crimes
17 subsequently. In 2000 they didn't even know that they would be indicting
18 me for anything, that they would be writing up an indictment.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In the second paragraph you say - and now tell me how come this
21 is here - that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Serb Radical Party in
23 A. Dr. Seselj, I think that that was mistranslated. I know that the
24 late Arsen Grahovac was a member of the SPO. I'm sure that the
25 translator/interpreter did not translate that properly for Ms. Brigitte.
1 Q. Do you know that in the first elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina in
2 1990, the SPO
3 elections in Nevesinje?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you know that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Municipal
6 Assembly of Nevesinje?
7 A. I really didn't know about that. I hear about it from you now.
8 Q. I have here a certificate from the president of the municipality
9 of the Nevesinje that I showed in court when another witness was being
10 heard, to the effect that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Municipal
11 Assembly of Nevesinje up until the moment he was killed.
12 A. Well, I know that he was the top man there and that he must have
13 been a member of the Municipal Assembly.
14 Q. But you don't know about that specifically?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Then I'm not going to show you that document -- or rather, you
17 said that he was a member of the SPO
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In paragraph 5 you say that you know that Arsen Grahovac met up
20 with Seselj in Belgrade
21 A. I heard that from other people.
22 Q. From who?
23 A. Those people who were on the front line with me, excuse me, in
24 Mostar. And they were from Mostar you see, but I do not believe anything
25 I don't see myself. These are various tales.
1 Q. But these tales became part of your statement. What are we going
2 to do about it now?
3 A. Well, I'm telling you that's what I heard about.
4 Q. You mention here that you heard that Seselj's volunteers were in
5 Mostar, there were about 50 of them; right?
6 A. That's what I heard, that they were up there at the garrison
7 command, but I didn't go there.
8 Q. In paragraph 9 on page 4, you say that Seselj's men came to Buna
9 and that the commander of Seselj's men was a local man known as Bovan.
10 A. I heard about that, Dr. Seselj. I moved from Zalik to the Zvezda
11 Cinema in Mostar.
12 Q. And then you say that he was a member of the SDS and the
13 president of SDS
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. How come Seselj's men could be under his command then?
16 A. I really don't know -- oh, but it was -- it is correct that he
17 was a member --
18 Q. How come you mention Seselj's men here?
19 A. I really don't know, I don't remember.
20 Q. All right then. Perhaps the OTP just interjected that there
21 without you seeing it or knowing about it.
22 A. That is quite possible.
23 Q. All right. If it's quite possible, let's move on. They quote
24 later on that you saw a check-point that was manned by Seselj's men,
25 which is what you stated in your first statement; and then you explain
1 here that there were Seselj's men from Serbia there and that some man
2 called Kinez was there commander, that he had a uniform similar to
3 Croatian uniforms, et cetera. Is that what you explained there?
4 A. I said already that when coming to Mostar --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness. I thought
6 that Mr. Seselj was going to ask you more questions about the contents of
7 the statement regarding Seselj's men. You stated that there was a group
8 that committed crimes and you mentioned various places, Kula, Buna,
9 Mostar, Bijelo Polje, Pisevce [phoen]. And you went on to say that they
10 committed the crimes in the village of Sopilja
11 were killed. You added this: In Mostar there was another Chetnik unit
12 of some 50 men. They wore Chetnik insignia and then in brackets there is
13 cockades, the two-head eagles, et cetera. And then you continued. You
15 "We knew that they were always Seselj's volunteers from Serbia
16 This unit didn't have any specific name," you said. So what you say is
17 very serious and very specific. You said that there was a 100-men-strong
18 unit which you described, and you said that these were people from
20 beforehand you said that they committed crimes. Do you remember saying
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you nicely that I remember
23 and that I know that in the garrison command there was a group of
24 volunteers known as Seseljevci. Now, that they had committed crimes in
25 town or around it, I'm not aware of that. I don't remember.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you said that they
2 came from Serbia
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learnt that as we held the
4 eastern part of the town and there was a front line there and we moved
5 around town, and I learned from men who were close to the garrison
6 command. But I myself never went to that command.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, yesterday
8 you also said that they spoke differently from the locals. Do I remember
9 properly or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you're not mistaken. They
11 spoke the Ekavica dialect. You know what Ekavica is?
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One detail. My colleagues and
14 I were really sort of poring over this statement, and it appears that
15 there were two groups. There was those who committed the crimes in
16 Nevesinje, where over 100 people were killed, and then there is a full
17 stop in the sentence in your statement. Then the sentence went on, and
18 it is said that in Mostar there is another Chetnik group of some 50
19 people. And apparently it was this group that was made up of volunteers,
20 Serbian volunteers, from Serbia
21 written, one could infer that the group that committed crimes was not
22 Seselj's group. But the sentence is supposed to render what you said to
23 Ms. St. Germain. So you are the only one who could tell us whether there
24 were indeed two groups, which one was it that did, and what they did.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while I was in Mostar
1 and while I moved around the area where we were functioning, I said that
2 I did not see a single volunteer or member of the Serbian Radical Party
3 that are known as Seseljevci. As for the crimes and the pits and these
4 killings in Nevesinje and the municipality of Nevesinje
5 them in hospital and when I returned from hospital. So I was in hospital
6 from the 13th of June until the 1st of August, and all this was happening
7 while I was in hospital. So what can I say? I can just say that I heard
8 about these things.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you heard about it.
10 Mr. Seselj.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. What does this mean in paragraph 15, that you were in the Mostar
13 unit before you were wounded?
14 A. I was in the territorial defence.
15 Q. Here it says Mostarska unit. Maybe it's a misinterpretation.
16 Did you say Mostarska unit.
17 A. Mostarska unit. We were protecting the bridge. And that's why
18 they translated it as the bridge unit.
19 Q. In paragraph 15 you say during the period that I spent in my
20 bridge unit, I never saw any crimes committed by members of the
21 Seseljevci. Then you mention a Vranjanac, you say that he was one of the
22 Seseljevci, that you never met him, and that you do not know that he
23 committed any crime. So before your wounding, you clearly said that you
24 were not aware of a single crime committed by the Seseljevci.
25 A. While I was there I didn't see nor did I hear -- Dr. Seselj, I
1 repeat, I never saw a single man of yours down there.
2 Q. But then it says here that you heard of the Seseljevci crimes
3 while you were in Montenegro
4 the hospital that Seseljevci had committed crimes?
5 A. There were 10 or 15 of us there from the Nevesinje brigade and
6 from Mostar, so I didn't hear anything to that effect.
7 Q. You speak about the participation of Seseljevci and Red Berets in
8 the attack on Bijelo Polje on the 19th of May. Are you sure that the
9 Seseljevci and the Red Berets were acting together?
10 A. I really don't know. I came to Mostar after the 19th of May.
11 Q. Very well. Then in paragraph 17 there is reference to the crime
12 in Uborak, in Gornji Vrapcici, and you say here that you don't know
13 whether Seseljevci or the Red Berets were involved, but you do say that
14 the Seseljevci were under Kandic's control. Kandic was the commander of
15 a battalion in the Nevesinje Brigade?
16 A. I think he was but very briefly, for two or three days.
17 Q. So you're talking about Ratko Kandic, he was killed in the war?
18 A. No.
19 Q. They say that he was a great hero during the war; is that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was he in this area where General Glusic says that members of
22 the Serbian Radical Party were involved? When you mentioned Klepci?
23 A. While I was there I didn't see Kandic at all. Where did you find
25 Q. But it says here in your statement that he was in command of the
2 A. No, out of the question.
3 Q. So that's not true, is it? Now we come to the best bit, that's
4 paragraph 20, and here you're quoted from your first statement. There
5 were about 100 Seselj's men and about 50 armed volunteers. They were
6 never issued any military cards nor were they registered, so referring to
7 the 50 and not the Seseljevci?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We just saw that there weren't a hundred but 19 plus one, 20.
10 You saw General Glusic's --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the
12 witness that statement by the general.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. It says here that you said allegedly:
15 "I wish to add the following. During the summer of 1993" --
16 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, what statement is Mr. Seselj referring
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Statement of 2004, paragraph 20,
21 there's no numbered paragraph in the statement of 2000. The statement of
22 2000 is not divided into paragraphs, whereas the statement of 2004 is.
23 MS. BIERSAY: [Previous translation continues]...
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Ms. Biersay, to make
25 things easier, if I understand Mr. Seselj he's reading the 2004 statement
1 and you see this was done by your own investigators. They numbered the
2 paragraphs. We're now dealing with paragraph 20.
3 MS. BIERSAY: I --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you can see that.
5 MS. BIERSAY: I understand that. I thought I heard the
6 interpretation as please give the witness the statement from the general.
7 So that's when I stood up to ask what statement of the general are we
8 talking about.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the usher to be kind enough
11 to give the general certificate back to me which was on the ELMO so that
12 it doesn't get lost.
13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Now you're allegedly adding here, first of all when you referred
15 to Seselj's men in the first statement it referred to the year 1992, but
16 here you say:
17 "I want to add the following. During the summer of 1993 these
18 men came to Nevesinje on two buses from Serbia. They were members of the
19 Serb Volunteer Guard (meaning Seseljevci) and members of the SPO party
20 led by Vuk Draskovic. They had photographs of Vojislav Seselj and
21 Vuk Draskovic on the buses. Their commander was Zvonko Osmajlic. He
22 later got killed. At one point he was Vuk Draskovic's body-guard. When
23 they arrived they joined with the Red Berets and the 2nd Light Brigade
24 which was a JNA brigade, and their commander at that point was Boro
25 Antelj. The deputy commander of Osmajlic was Branislav Lainovic."
1 So this was science fiction. This would not be possible in a
2 cartoon. Did you say this or did somebody put this in your statement
3 without your knowledge?
4 A. Dr. Vojislav Seselj, my position was 35 kilometres away from
5 Nevesinje, so I heard from people who came up there, as we worked in
6 shifts, that they had seen two buses coming of these volunteers of the
7 guard of the SPO
8 and apparently there were some of yours and Vuk Draskovic's.
9 Q. Very well. Let's proceed slowly, though this will take some
10 time. It says here they were members of the Serb Volunteer Guard
11 (i.e. Seseljevci). Can under any conditions members of the Serbian
12 Volunteer Guard be called Seseljevci?
13 A. No, how could they?
14 Q. But you did call them that here.
15 A. I'm telling you, I heard this up on the front.
16 Q. Did you hear at the front that members of the Serb volunteer
17 guard were Seseljevci?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Well, who said that, people who came to take over as the next
21 A. I told you a moment ago that I don't believe anything I don't
22 see. I didn't see any of this. I just heard about it.
23 Q. Yes, but you didn't say that here. You're giving a statement to
24 the Prosecution which is incriminating me. I simply can't stop wondering
25 how I can read something like this in your statement. And let me tell
1 you something else, the name isn't good, the Serb Volunteer Guard was
2 held by Arkan and Draskovic had the Serbian guards. This is a minor
3 difference in the name, but every Serb was aware of the difference, of
4 the distinction.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know what a fierce conflict there was between the Serbian
7 Radical Party and the Serbian Renewal Party, between me and Vuk Draskovic
8 in 1993 as it says here?
9 A. Yes, that you were in conflict.
10 Q. Yes. There was an absolute conflict between us.
11 A. No, I don't know. I hear this from you for the first time. I
12 didn't have any media available to me.
13 Q. How could it be possible that photographs of Vojislav Seselj and
14 Vuk Draskovic be posted next to one another on buses in the summer of
15 1993? How is that possible? And their commander was Zvonko Osmajlic.
16 Could you explain that to me, did somebody tell you this on the front?
17 A. I told you, because I was at the command post and that is where
18 the shifts took place.
19 Q. And so they told you that these two photographs were stuck
20 together on the buses and they went off to the Borac Lake
21 Zvonko Osmajlic was the commander. The commander of the Seseljevci of
22 all the people in the buses.
23 Were there any Seseljevci in those buses?
24 A. I didn't see them. I only heard about it.
25 Q. How could you make such a statement? Did you see this when you
1 signed this?
2 A. All the statements I signed were written in English.
3 Q. Yes, but you confirm now that you had heard that Seseljevci were
4 members of the Serb volunteer guard.
5 Judge Antonetti asked you something yesterday. He asked you
6 whether it is the same Vuk Draskovic who was the foreign minister, and
7 you said no, that it was somebody else. And I was astonished to hear
8 this. Do you know that Vuk Draskovic, president of the Serbian Renewal
9 Movement and the founder of the Serbian Guards, was the minister for
10 foreign affairs, first of Serbia
11 Did you ever hear that?
12 A. Yes, I heard it and saw it on television. I didn't say it was
13 him. This was some other Vuk Draskovic.
14 Q. So someone else was a minister?
15 A. No, he wasn't a minister.
16 Q. The minister now is Vuk Jeremic. Maybe you mixed up the two
17 names, Vuk Jeremic and Vuk Draskovic. But you never heard that Vuk
18 Draskovic was the foreign minister?
19 A. I'm telling you that I know that he was the minister, but I'm
20 saying that he wasn't there then.
21 Q. When?
22 A. They said yesterday that he was at the Borac lake.
23 Q. No, no, no, nobody said that. The judge didn't say that that he
24 was at the Borac lake, but the Judge asked you when you were talking
25 about Draskovic's guards, whether it was the same Draskovic that was the
1 foreign minister. Maybe you didn't understand the question. Did -- do
2 you know that the French president at the time, Francois Miterrand in
3 1993, when the Serb -- Draskovic's Serb guards were fighting at the Borac
4 lake, that President Miterrand invited Vuk Draskovic and his wife Danica
5 for treatment to France
6 bloodshed, during some demonstrations when they were beaten up. That is
7 what the Judge asked you. Had you heard of that?
8 A. I hear of it from you.
9 Q. On all the Serb media published it that Carla del Ponte, while
10 she was the lead Prosecutor, publicly acclaimed Vuk Draskovic and praised
11 him while he was foreign minister as her best friend and ally in
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. And did you hear Vuk Draskovic fiercely advocating the delivery
15 of Ratko Mladic and Hadzic to The Hague Tribunal?
16 A. I hear that from you and I believe you.
17 Q. So Ratko Mladic should be held responsible for the crimes
18 committed by his followers in Herzegovina
19 and the Serb people won't give Ratko Mladic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is the whole of the Serbian people very proud of Ratko Mladic?
22 A. As far as I know, 1.000 per cent.
23 Q. The entire Serb people are proud of Ratko Mladic 1.000 per cent.
24 And here they've accused Ratko Mladic even of the crimes committed by
25 Draskovic; isn't that so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us move on. In paragraph 21 they are quoting what you said
3 in your first statement where there is no mention of Seselj's men, the
4 crime, the massacre in Teleca Lastva, and now you add that Seseljevci and
5 the Red Berets were responsible for it. How is that possible?
6 A. I think in that paragraph that it says very nicely that the only
7 thing that I do know, that is to say what I heard, happened at the time
8 when I was wounded; namely, that Seselj's men and the Red Berets were
9 responsible for it.
10 Q. Who did you hear that from?
11 A. Men from the front line.
12 Q. How come Seseljevci were at Teleca Lastva?
13 A. I was surprised by that too.
14 Q. I know, but --
15 A. They had already left.
16 Q. All right. But what you add here is: The only thing I know
17 about this incident, Teleca Lastva massacre, is the fact that the
18 Seseljevci and Red Berets were responsible for it.
19 A. And now I'm answering --
20 Q. And the Judges can't wait to impose a life sentence on me on the
21 basis of this, what you say you hadn't even seen yourself, that you heard
22 sort of from someone.
23 A. I'm telling you that I was in hospital at the time and I heard
24 about that.
25 Q. From whom?
1 A. People who were at the front line.
2 Q. Who talked about that, people at the barber shop? Who, what?
3 A. Well, I heard it from my fellow combatants.
4 Q. Why didn't you say that in your first statement to the OTP
5 because that is a very important piece of information. Had you said that
6 in your first statement, maybe you would have convinced me too; however,
7 since that is not in your first statement but only in the second one that
8 was tendentiously prepared in 2004 for my trial, you keep adding Red
9 Berets, Seseljevci, Red Berets, Seseljevci, look at paragraph 22 as well.
10 And then in paragraph 25:
11 "Seselj's volunteers were members of the Karadjordje group and
12 Arsen Grahovac was their leader."
13 Is that what you said?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two comments.
15 First an assumption. If you had died, the Prosecutor would have tendered
16 your statement under Rule 92 quater. This is the procedure that we use
17 here. When someone is deceased, his or her statement may be tendered
18 through this rule, and I'm sure you understand the consequences. In 2004
19 when Mr. Yves Roy contacted you. I've never met this man. I don't know
20 who it is. He takes all the paragraphs that you had in your 2000
21 statement and reviews them, but systematically he always adds something.
22 Each time there is written: I said, and then information that you add.
23 So any trier of fact reading this could think that this witness is
24 extremely accurate because every time he says "I said," and the entire
25 statement is organised in such a way. So everything is very -- very
1 specific, very precise, but it seems that now you're telling us that this
2 is all hearsay, that everything that is written is hearsay. So you
3 should have said -- you should have told Mr. Roy: I am saying this
4 because I heard it from someone else.
5 Furthermore, on paragraph 2, because they there are paragraph
6 numbers, paragraph 2 for this Karadjordje group and Grahovac's group, you
7 say he was a member of the SRS
8 saying. And when you said that you were absolutely sure that Grahovac
9 was a member of the SRS
10 had a local structure there with politicians who took part in elections,
11 with a local president for the party in that place, and so forth and so
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, I certainly wasn't sure of
14 that, but I was sure that this was a member of the Serbian Renewal
15 Movement, but I wanted to tell you something about what you had said:
16 How come you never said that during that questioning? Well, the person
17 who was putting questions to me did not even ask me whether I had heard
18 about that or this or that. Do you understand what I'm saying? Most of
19 these things that had happened, happened during that period of time when
20 I was in hospital. And when I got out of hospital, I do not remember
21 that there was any massacre anywhere or something like that.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, fine, fine. You said he
23 was member of the Serbian Renewal Party, but this is not the Serbian
24 Radical Party. It's not the same thing. The investigator maybe was
25 confused and didn't understand and would write SRS and not think twice
1 about it, fine, that might have happened. But, you see, there are
2 consequences. Imagine you had died. This document would be binding and
3 any Judge reading this would see Grahovac was a member of the Serbian
4 Radical Party period.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I told you yesterday
6 very nicely that I'm not quite sure -- actually, I mean -- well --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me read this sentence.
8 "The only Chetnik group present was the group of Arsen Grahovac
9 called Karadjordje. He was a member of the SRS in Nevesinje, he was
10 there with his group of 20 to 30 men."
11 That is the sentence as it is written in English. So when
12 reading this anyone can infer that Grahovac is a member of the Serbian
13 Radical Party.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I may intervene at this point and assist in
15 refreshing the Presiding Judge's memory, I think we covered this issue
16 yesterday when I was you putting my questions to the witness, and it
17 became clear that this statement made by the witness in paragraph 2 of
18 the 2004 statement was indeed a mistake. So that has been clarified.
19 The witness has confirmed today that at no point did he wish to maintain
20 that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the SRS. The witness has repeatedly
21 highlighted that Mr. Grahovac, as far as he knew, was a member of the
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Harhoff, look at paragraph
24 25, the last sentence. It says:
25 "The Seseljevci volunteers were members of the Karadjordje group
1 and their leader was Arsen Grahovac."
2 You see what kind of a mess we're dealing with here and how do we
3 get out of it? All of this was added on to the statement of 2000. They
4 were inserting things there because they issued an indictment against me
5 when there was no evidence whatsoever, and then they fabricated this kind
6 of evidence.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Seselj, in that same paragraph if you go up a
8 few lines it appears that what is reflected here is what the witness
9 heard in the third line, at least in the English version, it says that he
10 heard that the Red Berets, the SPO
11 involved in these killings. But it's clear that this is something that
12 he heard, and I don't think that we can take it any further than that.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Harhoff, if the witness
14 had heard something, he should tell us as a bare minimum I think who he
15 heard it from. If it was women at the barber shop who were talking about
16 that, he has to say which woman was having a shave and talked about that.
17 So I want to hear from the witness who it was that was saying that.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have heard from the witness. He told you
19 that he had heard this from combatants who had been at the front line and
20 who had come back that he met.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I have yet another
22 question now.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Since you did not hear that from the fighters who came back from
25 the front line before your statement in 2000, that means that you heard
1 all of this about Seseljevci between 2000 and 2004; is that right?
2 A. First of all, I did not hear about it from fellow combatants who
3 had come from the front line, but rather from those who were going to the
4 front line, Dr. Seselj.
5 Q. Oh, so you heard it from those who were about to go to the front
7 A. Yes, who had come from Nevesinje that was 35 kilometres away.
8 Q. Now I'm even more confused. Instead of hearing about Seselj's
9 men who were criminals from people who came from the front line where
10 crimes were being committed, you heard that from people who were yet to
11 go there; that is to say, that they went there with certain information
12 to the effect that Seselj's men were committing crimes in some kind of
13 impossible combination with members of the SPO and the Red Berets?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. And as you said a few moments ago, I mean, you know, women in a
17 barber shop, I can just add one more thing that women at the market-place
18 in Nevesinje knew a lot more. Perhaps the Court is not really interested
19 in that but they knew more than we did at the front line.
20 Q. So did you learn something from women at the market-place?
21 A. Well, yes, all sorts of things. Like, tomorrow there's going to
22 be an attack on Mostar and whatever.
23 Q. Well, on page 28 you say:
24 "I want to add the following. The killings in Gacko that
25 happened around the 20th of June, 1992, were committed by the Red Berets
1 Seseljevci, Serbs from Gacko, Bileca, et cetera," what does that mean?
2 How come Seseljevci were in Gacko?
3 A. As for that period I really wasn't there and -- I mean I was in
4 hospital. I heard that in hospital in Meljine from these wounded men.
5 Q. Obviously, the investigators who were speaking to you in 2004,
6 they kept insisting on you inserting "Seselj's men" into your statement?
7 Did they insist on that?
8 A. To a large part, yes.
9 Q. Did they offer anything in return?
10 A. Well, you know what, in return that would mean, well, that some
11 third country was offered to me, that I was paid per diems for having
12 skipped work, then my travel expenses, and things like that.
13 Q. And then it turned out to be a lie, what they told you about the
14 third country?
15 A. Well, 2000 was a long time ago and now it's been ten years,
16 right, and you can see that that is the case.
17 Q. So they lied to you. But I want you to tell me whether it's
18 true, then you say, yes, it's true, they lied to me. I mean, it's not
19 that I want to get this out of you. Did they lie to you?
20 A. Well, you can see that they did.
21 Q. All right. So when you realised that they were lying to you,
22 then you turned to my associates and you asked to come and testify as a
23 Defence witness. Am I right?
24 A. Fully.
25 Q. Thank you. So that is a full answer on your part. Thank you.
1 A. Don't mention it.
2 Q. Oh, but I should mention it and how --
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Seselj, but I
4 have a question for the witness.
5 Witness, you understood that they lied while they were telling
6 you all this, or did you just understand today that they lied at the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know how it was. During the
9 first talks a promise was made to me that I would leave very shortly.
10 That was at the first interview and the second and the third interview.
11 So it wasn't a short-term dead-line. Short-term is five or ten days, so
12 it's not just some ordinary statement. It is practically a military
13 secret, highly confidential. It's not easy to say that kind of thing.
14 You know how people look at you.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I don't
16 understand your answer. You said that you understood that they lied. I
17 would like to know whether you understood that they lied when they were
18 actually telling you all these, all this, or did -- or is it just today
19 that you finally understood that they lied? When did you understand that
20 they were lying? Who exactly is "they"? Is it the OTP, the soldiers,
21 the combatants?
22 The combatants, the people who told you all these things. You
23 understood that when they were telling you all this, actually they were
24 telling you a bunch of lies? Very well. Now, I would like to know
25 exactly when you understood that they were lying, at what point in time.
1 Was it at the time, while they were telling you all these lies or just
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam --
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like an answer from the
5 witness before you speak, Mr. Seselj. After I have my answer, you can
6 say whatever you want, Mr. Seselj.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I thought that you
8 were asking ant the interview with Ms. Brigitte. Do you understand me?
9 That's what I meant.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, no. We've already talked
11 about this at length yesterday. We've understood that there was an
12 interpreter, that the interpreter read you a number of things. You even
13 said that the interpreter changed things. This has settled the matter.
14 I'm talking about something else. Now, have you understood my question
15 this time?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your
17 question, but briefly, briefly. I went to the statement --
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat slowly. In these
19 statements you're saying a number of things about Seselj's volunteers who
20 would have done this -- this or that, but you add that you heard this
21 only through hearsay. And you also added who told you about this, so who
22 was responsible for this hearsay. But then later you said that you
23 understood that when these people were telling you all these things they
24 were just telling you a bunch of lies. It seems that now that there were
25 just liars everywhere. Fine. Set this aside, but this is what you said.
1 Now, I would like to know when exactly you understood, you
2 realised, that these were lies, that all these people who were telling
3 you all these things were liars. Was it as they -- when they were
4 telling you all the lies or did you find -- realise this now, today,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, I said that I do not
7 believe anything until I see it. I heard everything they said, what was
8 going on, and how it went on. I said what I knew. Had you asked me
9 about something that I had seen for myself at the front line, I would
10 have confirmed all of that for you. Basically, I didn't believe anything
11 coming from anyone. I really did hear a lot of lies. How should I put
12 this to you? Well, I will give you an example. I was a soldier. I was
13 involved in shooting. I'm not hiding that. So I kill someone for
14 instance and they say, "He didn't do it, somebody else did it," so it is
15 hearsay. That's what we call it in our language. So that's the same
16 thing what happened. They wanted -- they wanted to blame someone else.
17 They wanted to blame someone who was well-known, like the members of the
18 Serb Radical Party or Seselj's volunteers --
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,
20 you understood that they were lying at the time, when they were telling
21 you all those lies, you knew that they were lies, you had realised that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 99 per cent I was convinced because
23 I didn't believe these things, I didn't see them, I just heard about
24 them --
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But you did not share what you
1 were convinced with the Prosecutor in 2004?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the Prosecutor didn't ask
3 me that at all.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something now, Judge
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm addressing you now. You
9 started this discussion with the witness after I had discussed with him
10 for some time about his conversations with The Hague investigators, and
11 the witness confirmed that The Hague
12 his previous statement and add the Seseljevci. And then I asked him:
13 What did they offer in return? And the witness said: They offered me
14 life in a foreign country. My question then was: Did they lie to you?
15 And the witness said: Yes. And I insisted that he give me a clear-cut
16 answer whether they had lied to him.
17 So the witness wasn't saying that the people who were telling him
18 about the crimes of the Seseljevci, but it was The Hague investigators
19 who lied to him because they offered him life in a foreign country. And
20 when he signed this statement, that was filled in with the Seseljevci
21 everywhere. Nothing came of it. And then, realising that he had been
22 lied to and as a sign of revolt, he addressed my Defence team.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this is something
24 else, but thank you, but this is something completely different. I had
25 fully understood and heard what was said about the so-called tampering
1 that might have happened -- allegedly would have been done by the
2 Prosecutor. But this witness also talked about people, women, all sorts
3 of people who told them this and that, that he had understood that these
4 were lies. And this is what my question was about, about these facts. I
5 wanted to know when he realised that these were lies. And I understood
6 now that he realised it at the time but he did not convey that to the
7 Prosecutor because he never denied not having said this to the
8 Prosecutor. As to the reasons why he said what he said, well the
9 Trial Chamber will see into that. But he never denied that he had said
10 this to the Prosecutor.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, continue.
12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You mentioned here the Red Berets, but you said yesterday that
14 they were not the Red Berets belonging to the police of Serbia from a
15 later date, but that they are Red Berets from the 2nd Light Brigade.
16 A. They organised themselves on their own.
17 Q. And who was the commander?
18 A. Captain Boro Antelj.
19 Q. But Captain Boro Antelj was the commander of this light brigade,
20 right? But who was the commander of the Red Beret units within that
22 A. Baca Milosevic who left the country.
23 Q. Baca Milosevic, I see. I was given a document by the Prosecution
24 which comes from the military security service of Croatia, the Croatian
25 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, forward command post Posusje.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to put
2 this on the ELMO, please.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. It is the document dated the 30th of November, 1993. So let us
5 briefly take a look at this document and could you comment on it, please.
6 I would like us to identify who these people are. You've already said
7 this is a unit within the brigade. Let us see what it says for the Baca,
8 what the Croats say. Here it is.
9 You see, this is an interview with a representative of the VRS,
10 and they say that on the 29th of November they had an interview with
11 Baca Milosevic, commander of special unit of the VRS, the so-called Red
12 Berets. Also present was a member of the SIS, that is their security
13 service, and Nikola Peric. In this document - and the Prosecution has
14 this document - they say that Baca Milosevic went to Mostar to Croatian
15 territory. Did you know that?
16 A. I remember that very well.
17 Q. And he discussed co-operation between Serbian and Croatian forces
18 in the struggle against Muslim forces, and they even considered the
19 possibility of jointly taking Konjic in the third paragraph, the town of
20 Konjic. You see that? And that is the only reason we need this
22 So the Croats also knew that this was a special unit of the VRS,
23 the Red Berets?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Has this unit any connection with Franko Simatovic?
1 A. As far as I know, no. There's no connection. And never during
2 the armed conflict did I go to Borac lake, and I can assert that this
3 unit had only one operation that was just an attack.
4 Q. So we're not interested in that. So within the framework of that
5 light Konjic brigade, there was this unit called the Red Berets and Baca
6 Milosevic was in command. Was that so?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And was there Arsen Grahovac's unit, Karadjordje, until he was
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was there the Serbian Guards from Serbia sent by Vuk
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Under the commander Zoran Osmajlic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the rest of the unit were locally mobilised soldiers; is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know that the Main Staff of Republika Srpska from 1994 did
20 everything they could to get rid of Boro Antelj, did you hear about this?
21 A. No, but I believe you because I know more or less why.
22 Q. Tell me so that they don't think I'm leading you. But why did
23 they wish to dismiss him?
24 A. Because in the period of 1993 in my assessment there was an
25 impermissible trade with the Croatian army from the small place of Turija
1 near Konjic inhabited by Croats, and there was a re-settlement of Croats
2 across Serb territory. Then fuel was brought in from Kiseljak for the
3 Croatian army, et cetera.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you know that he provided military weapons to the Serbian
7 Renewal Movement in Serbia
8 A. I hear of that for the first time.
9 Q. Very well. If you hadn't heard about it I won't insist.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please have this document
11 back, Mr. Usher.
12 Your Honours, did you plan a break now or shall I continue?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it's time for the
14 break. We will break for 20 minutes. I believe you have about 30
15 minutes left. The Registrar will check this for us and I'll tell you
16 when we resume.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Court is back in session.
20 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. There is something else I was surprised by, Mr. Dabic. When you
23 were talking about these two rallies of the Serbian Democratic Party in
24 Mostar and Nevesinje, you said that they were held in 1991; is that so?
25 A. Just before the war.
1 Q. Yes, but you said in 1991. The rallies that you spoke about were
2 held in 1990, prior to the first multi-party elections; isn't that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in 1990 Arsen Grahovac didn't have any armed groups?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So this occurred in July 1991, a year later?
7 A. I apologise.
8 Q. Tell me, please.
9 A. I can't see you properly because of the ELMO, please, because of
10 this antenna.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you remove the --
12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. We're wasting time. There are quite a number of things I'd like
14 to clear up.
15 Did you make a mistake there unconsciously or what -- in
16 connection -- in connection with these rallies in Mostar and Nevesinje?
17 A. I thought it was then.
18 Q. But in 1990 nobody was armed, were they? In 1991, yes; but in
19 1990 no; am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So I see you have to correct that, too?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. You mentioned my coming to Nevesinje in 1995. In paragraph 29 of
24 this second statement of 2004. You say here that:
25 "I came with two military trucks, three or four cars with
3 A. That is what it says.
4 Q. Is that what you saw?
5 A. No, I didn't see you.
6 Q. But how come this is in your statement?
7 A. For the four years that I was on the front, I spent only three
8 months in Nevesinje.
9 Q. Did you see this on television then?
10 A. I didn't have any TV. I lived in the barracks.
11 Q. In paragraph 29 you describe my coming to Nevesinje in 1995, and
12 in paragraph 30 you say that this event was shown on Trebinje TV a few
13 days later. And now you're say that you didn't have a TV and that you
14 couldn't have watched this.
15 A. In the 30th paragraph I didn't say this. My name is not
16 mentioned there, is it?
17 Q. Your name isn't mentioned, but there's your signature at the end
18 of the statement.
19 A. I don't remember that.
20 Q. But you know about Radovan Radovic, he was killed. He was the
21 commander of a special unit that rallied volunteers from the area of
22 Bileca; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This was a unit that fought heroically at many fronts?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And Radovan Radovic is considered a great hero among the Serb
2 people; am I right?
3 A. Yes, absolutely.
4 Q. Did you ever hear that Radovan Radovic was involved in a war
5 crime ever?
6 A. As far as I know, he was not, and there isn't a battle front in
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina where he wasn't -- where he was present and me
8 being present.
9 Q. So what I'm asking is: You're not aware of a single crime that
10 Radovan Radovic was involved in.
11 Do you know that Radovan Radovic in 1994 joined the Serbian
12 Radical Party?
13 A. Really, I didn't know that.
14 Q. And did you know that after he became a member I proclaimed him a
15 Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda?
16 A. I heard that you had proclaimed him Vojvoda, but I didn't hear
17 that he was proclaimed a Chetnik Vojvoda.
18 Q. I can only proclaim Chetnik Vojvodas and no others.
19 A. I see.
20 Q. And that is what I did but only once he had joined the Serbian
21 Radical Party.
22 A. I didn't know that he had become a member, but I did know that he
23 was a Vojvoda.
24 Q. And do you know how many people I proclaimed Serbian Chetnik
25 Vojvodas from Herzegovina
1 A. I only know of the late Radovan Radovic.
2 Q. Had you heard of Nedeljko Vidakovic?
3 A. I hear it from you.
4 Q. He is from Trebinje who had a unit of local volunteers, and he
5 fought in the direction of Dubrovnik
6 A. I was at the Trebinje battle front only when Knin fell. And
7 Vidakovic was killed as a hero during the war. I hear that from you.
8 Q. These are the only two Serbian Chetnik Vojvodas that I proclaimed
9 from Herzegovina
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. Who did you hear from about my coming to Nevesinje? Did you tell
12 the investigator this or did he write it himself?
13 A. I told him that I spent very little time in Nevesinje, and I
14 heard about this when I came for a bath to the barracks.
15 Q. Who did you hear it from?
16 A. From my co-combatants who were living in the barracks. We didn't
17 have a home.
18 Q. So you said here that I came with three or four cars with
20 the column. This is what you heard?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And with us there were two military trucks. Did those military
23 trucks have Belgrade
24 A. These people told me that they didn't.
25 Q. Were they trucks of Radovic's unit?
1 A. I think they were.
2 Q. And I went with them to the front line; is that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you say that from Nevesinje I went to Prijeka Grma. To
5 tell you the truth, I don't remember this place, but probably that's
6 true. That was the forward command post of the Nevesinje Brigade; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is 12 or 13 kilometres towards Mostar?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the commander was Zoran Purkovic, and you said that Zdravko
12 Kandic was a major and an operative of that brigade?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who did I meet with there, with Purkovic or Kandic?
15 A. If I had heard I would have said, but I don't know.
16 Q. But you heard that I went to the front line with Radovan Radovic?
17 A. Prijeka Grma is not the front line.
18 Q. How far is the front line that I went to from Mostar?
19 A. About 30 kilometres, that's for sure.
20 Q. 30 kilometres. That is where I went?
21 A. No, let me tell you now exactly. Mostar-Nevesinje is 45
22 kilometres, about 37 kilometres.
23 Q. Where I was at the front line, I was 37 kilometres from Mostar?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you say here that there was a tank there, that a soldier asked
1 me to get in, but I couldn't get in because you say I was too fat for the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you say that I was too fat?
5 A. I told you I heard about these things. I didn't see you; if I
6 had, I would say so.
7 Q. Does any army in the world manufacture tanks for 2-metre high
8 people like me? It's always shorter soldiers are chosen for -- to man a
9 tank. Have you ever seen a tank operator of 2 metres?
10 A. Only basketball players are that high.
11 Q. So I could never be a tank driver. So then you say that I took a
12 Browning machine-gun and fired at Mostar. Did you say that? In
13 paragraph 29, last sentence:
14 "Instead of that he took a Browning machine-gun and fired at
16 A. I keep telling you I told them what I heard. I never saw you.
17 Q. Did I open fire at Mostar?
18 A. How do I know when I didn't see you?
19 Q. But that is what it says here, that I took a Browning machine-gun
20 and fired at Mostar. Is a Browning fixed on a tank?
21 A. That's 12.7-calibre and it's not mounted on a tank.
22 Q. What is the range of a machine-gun 12.7-calibre?
23 A. I think about 3 kilometres.
24 Q. That would be a maximum, wouldn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If an ordinary machine-gun has a range of 2, then this one 3.
2 But this line was 37 kilometres from Mostar?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Then how could I use a Browning machine-gun to fire at Mostar? I
5 could have fired at the moon; isn't that so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Well, why does it say here that I was firing at Mostar? So has
8 this been put in by the investigator to say that I fired at random to
9 kill civilians in Mostar, but I was firing in the direction of Muslim
10 positions not Mostar?
11 A. I don't believe you could have reached the Muslim lines either
12 because they were too far away.
13 Q. If I had a howitzer of 203-millimetres, I couldn't have fired at
14 Mostar either?
15 A. No.
16 Q. A 203-millimetre howitzer has a range of 20 kilometres, so I
17 couldn't have fired at Mostar. Now, why does it say that here then? I
18 can't understand this nonsense in this statement. How did it get in your
19 statement? You don't know?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you remember saying this?
22 A. This really was a long time ago, but I tell you that I remember
23 talking in the barracks. But this conversation was much -- was much
25 Q. Let me make myself clear. I'm proud of my role in this war. It
1 was a small role, but I'm proud of it. I did visit Radovan Radovic's
2 unit at the front line. I did open fire with a Browning machine, but not
3 at Mostar. How can I fire at Mostar when it's 37 kilometres away? What
4 about the moon, do you know how far the moon is? No, you don't know?
5 A. I'm not an astronomist.
6 Q. It's easier to target the moon than Mostar because you can't see
7 Mostar from this spot?
8 A. It is impossible. It is impossible to see it from Prijeka Grma.
9 Q. Is there a mountain in front of us?
10 A. Yes, there's a hill, there's a hill.
11 Q. And you can't see anything in the direction of Mostar, can you?
12 A. I remember that hill.
13 Q. Were the Muslim positions on the hill?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So I couldn't see anything behind that hill; is that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The Prosecution could have found that clip because it was aired
18 on television, and then they could see where I fired from and at what.
19 We have mentioned Radovan Radovic. Do you know that the Chetnik
20 Vojvoda Radovan Radovic was killed from the behind in January in Bileca?
21 A. I know that. He killed him from behind and he was convicted to
22 only two and a half years of imprisonment.
23 Q. Yes, and he hid in Belgrade
24 year and nine months. And do you know that this same Krsto Savic was
25 convicted at the state court of Bosnia and Herzegovina to 20 years of
1 imprisonment for war crimes?
2 A. Yes, I know that.
3 Q. I have this judgement on a hundred pages. Whether it's founded
4 on true facts or not, I haven't analysed it. The appeal ruling hasn't
5 been made, but I know that Krsto Savic killed Radovan Radovic for no
6 reason and that he was never properly punished for it; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said yesterday that there were people who falsely claimed to
9 be Serb Radicals. Were there some gangs that would be formed of who
10 knows which bandits and would claim to be members of the Serb Radical --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Judge Lattanzi, have I
12 made a mistake? The witness said yesterday that there were people who
13 falsely claimed to be Serb Radicals --
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That's before --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour. Microphone,
16 Your Honour.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm not testifying. I'm just
18 asking questions.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You said that yesterday. Do you remember?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know that today in Republika Srpska there's an entire
23 political party that claims to be falsely a Serbian Radical Party led by
24 somebody called Milenko Mihaljica.
25 A. I hear this from you because I rarely go to Republika Srpska or
2 Q. There's a party that has been in existence for seven years that
3 is falsely claiming to be the Serbian Radical Party of Republika Srpska.
4 With the help of the regime at the time, they took --
5 MS. BIERSAY: Objection, Your Honour. Objection. Mr. Seselj is
6 speaking about things that have no relevance and his purpose is simply to
7 use this as a public platform. And the Prosecution objects to it.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you told us that
9 there is a Serbian Radical Party in the Republika Srpska that is not
10 yours. We have understood what you meant to say. Please move on to
11 something else.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that that is an important
13 argument that supports the statement made by this witness yesterday,
14 Mr. President. But all right, I'll move on to something else.
15 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
16 Q. In your statement here you mentioned some other men whose names I
17 find interesting. You mentioned Petar Divjakovic, Radovan Soldo,
18 Dragan Zirojevic, and some others; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember having mentioned them?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Now, these men belonged to this so-called unit of the Red Berets
23 at lake Borac
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. I received information from Ilija Vuckovic, who was commander of
1 the special-purpose unit of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika
2 Srpska Krajina in the period from 1991 to 1993. It was in Pajzos near
3 Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina that his unit had its
4 headquarters. Have you heard of that place?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You didn't hear of it before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. He says that in mid-1991 Petar Divjakovic and three other men,
9 Dragan Zirojevic, Radovan Soldo, and the third name he cannot remember,
10 joined that unit voluntarily and arrived there. That they spent 17 days
11 in that unit and they trained and then fled from the unit and took their
12 combat kits along. They had red berets on their heads. They also stole
13 a van in the village of Lezimir
14 the property of a company from Lezimir. Do you know that they arrived in
15 Mostar in that van?
16 A. This is the first time I hear it from you, and also that they
17 fled and how they got there.
18 Q. And then they appeared in that unit and through some false
19 witnesses the Prosecution is trying to link them to me.
20 MS. BIERSAY: Objection, Your Honour, objection. The witness
21 said he heard this for the first time, and Mr. Seselj continued basically
22 throwing false allegations and testifying, and we object to it.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that you
24 received a report from the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska
25 about Krajina in 1992 or 1993, but the witness said "I don't know." So
1 there's no point in insisting because he told you that he didn't know.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then I won't go on
3 insisting. What Ms. Biersay says, that I am lying, I mean all the lies
4 here come from the OTP starting with the false indictment --
5 MS. BIERSAY: Objection, objection Your Honour. That was --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- we had a lot of false statements
7 here, false witnesses, and --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please do not make
9 accusations. You have to prove that what you're saying is the truth. So
10 before reaching any conclusions, you have to make your point.
11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In your first statement on page 35 you mentioned the arrival of
13 Radovan Karadzic in December 1994, he arrived in Nevesinje, then that's
14 what you say, do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. However, then you said that in Nevesinje Karadzic was not warmly
17 welcomed and that they didn't really like him very much over there. His
18 visit - and now they use these Croat words here, expressions that you do
19 not use at all. Was that because Nevesinje was a stronghold of the SPO,
20 is that why they didn't like Karadzic? Why?
21 A. I don't think that's the reason.
22 Q. What else?
23 A. I was at the front line then and we received an order stating
24 that Radovan Karadzic would arrive in Nevesinje and that we were supposed
25 to go there to take part there so that there wouldn't be some incidents,
1 right, by -- incidents caused by the Muslim army. As far as I heard,
2 there weren't very many people in the streets when he arrived.
3 Q. All right. Did you state that Novica Gusic throughout the war
4 received his salary from the JNA in Serbia
5 A. Novica Gusic?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I'm not aware of that.
8 Q. That is what is on page 37 of your statement, the second
9 paragraph there, that Novica Gusic throughout the war received from the
10 JNA of Serbia
11 is science fiction, absolutely impossible, because I know what the
12 salaries of officers in Serbia
13 A. Well, the deputy commander was with me in the same battalion. He
14 was also a military man from the JNA. He did not have a salary.
15 Q. Buzina?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Djurdjic?
18 A. Djurdjic.
19 Q. He had no salary?
20 A. No way.
21 Q. In here it says that he got 300 Deutschemark from Serbia per
22 month. How come that's in your statement?
23 A. They didn't have anything.
24 Q. Did the OTP do this?
25 A. Well, maybe they commented upon that, that they got it from the
1 Army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. They could not get that much money?
3 A. Well, I know.
4 Q. How come then?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. You don't know how come it's in your statement? Do you have the
7 impression that the OTP inserted in your statement anything that came to
8 their minds?
9 A. Well, you know what? I told you very nicely, the interpreter who
10 was with this lady who was questioning me -- well, the two of them were
11 speaking English, but I do speak a bit of English myself and they
12 probably changed some expressions and ...
13 Q. What about these people who attacked you the other day in Novi
14 Sad and they beat you up; that's what you said?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
17 A. No, it was dark.
18 Q. Did you defend yourself?
19 A. Well, yes.
20 Q. Did you injure any one of them?
21 A. Well, I hit them but it wasn't really much of a blow.
22 Q. Do you know any martial arts?
23 A. Hardly.
24 Q. You never trained in any martial arts?
25 A. No, no. Diving, mountaineering, marksmanship, that's what I
2 Q. Karate and judo, no? Boxing, no?
3 A. No way, boxing, what do you mean?
4 Q. What about karate?
5 A. I tried karate.
6 Q. What about judo?
7 A. No.
8 Q. See, in your statement on page 3 it says that you were good at
9 martial arts in karate and judo. Did you actually say that to the OTP?
10 A. No, no, I said mountaineering, fishing, marksmanship, that's for
12 Q. Here it says karate and judo. And did you ever jump out of a
14 A. A helicopter? In Zvornik.
15 Q. From how high up?
16 A. Say 15 -- no 10 metres.
17 Q. How did you do that without getting hurt?
18 A. Why, that's not very high.
19 Q. Here it says that you jumped from an altitude of 50 metres?
20 A. No way. I mean, I wouldn't jump into the water from 50 metres.
21 Q. Let alone a helicopter?
22 A. Not even from a helicopter into the water, 50 metres, no way. I
23 didn't even jump off the Old Bridge
24 Q. Do you remember the first killing that took place in Mostar just
25 before the war started?
1 A. The first killing?
2 Q. Yes.
3 Do you know Romeo Blazevic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He killed two Serb reservists?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. As a member of the HOS?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That's Paraga's unit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was Blaz Kraljevic in command of that unit?
12 A. That's correct, he was killed.
13 Q. He was killed by the Croats themselves?
14 A. In Krusevo above Mostar in western Herzegovina.
15 Q. Why did they kill him?
16 A. I think because of some unsettled accounts, something like that.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. Him and his escorts.
19 Q. They liquidated all of his escorts?
20 A. Yes, on the road between Krusevo and Mostar.
21 Q. And your father lost his life during the war in Mostar, right?
22 A. Yes, from a Croat shell.
23 Q. From a Croat shell?
24 A. In 1993, in September 1993.
25 Q. Very well. No, of course it's not very well. Unfortunately, he
1 lost his life, but I'm just checking some data here.
2 A. May God rest his soul.
3 Q. Yes, I say the same thing.
4 Now we reach the material that the OTP provided me with, a letter
5 on the 25th of January. That's where the OTP said to me that already in
6 2002 you consider yourself to be in danger and that you asked to be
7 relocated abroad; is that right?
8 A. I don't remember that. I really don't remember that I asked.
9 Q. On the 27th of May, 2002, that is to say two years after that
10 first interview you had with the OTP, did you have yet another interview
11 in which you assessed the dangers that you were faced with? You talked
12 to a (redacted)
13 (redacted) I made a small mistake, so it's not from
14 the OTP but the Tribunal --
15 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Your Honours, for reasons you might well
16 understand, we would ask that that name be redacted from the transcript
17 or that we go into private session.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is totally wrong, really.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
20 continues]... we need to redact the name of the officer from the Victims
21 and Witnesses Section, line 19, page 87.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. What it says here is that you said that after having given a
25 statement to the OTP in the winter of 2002 he felt isolated and was
1 afraid that details of his connections with the International Criminal
2 Tribunal might leak, and then the Serb authorities -- oh my goodness,
3 what a miserable translation into Serbian. And then there is a mention
4 of your then-code-name, that you mentioned that, and then that you kept
5 changing your address and that you had moved seven or eight times by
6 then. The witness also regularly changed the number of his mobile
7 telephone. He was constantly in fear and did not feel safe. He didn't
8 feel safe in Serbia
9 had trusted his old friends but there were other persons, and he
10 mentioned them, who knew him and who might take the law into their own
11 hands. That is what led to his concern for his own safety; is that
13 A. That is correct, and the meeting took place on the 27th of May
14 that year in the Bristol Hotel on the Neretva River in Mostar. The first
15 thing that you asked me.
16 Q. That was before the indictment against me was issued?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Who was it that endangered you, if you can say it in public
19 session; if not, then forget it?
20 A. Well, there's nothing secret about it. There was no danger
21 coming from you. It had already become known that I had contacted the
22 International Tribunal. There is no mention of you. I don't mention
23 you, I mean, or any party, whatever.
24 Q. How could you when you didn't say anything bad about me in your
25 first statement. I didn't see anything in the first statement that was
1 bad for me.
2 A. Well, I didn't. I mean, when I met with that officer I didn't
3 say that there was any danger coming from you.
4 Q. Did you ever think that there was any danger coming from me when
5 you gave the second statement?
6 A. From you, no.
7 Q. Or men under my influence?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The person who talked to you says here:
10 "The witness talked to a third person about what he got out of
11 this," that is to say out of that evidence provided by you, "as if he
12 were expecting some kind of a reward for his testimony." Is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So what does that mean, did you expect some kind of reward?
16 A. Well, I thought that they would get me out to a third country
18 Q. And that you had deserved that with that statement of yours?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They also say:
21 "The witness said that -- the statement says that the witness
22 felt that his -- that he deserved a reward and" --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The document is being read
24 out too fast for interpretation.
25 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And then allegedly you were trying to assure him that that was
2 not the case?
3 A. I think that that was mistranslated.
4 Q. Were promises made to you during the first interview, that you
5 could go to a foreign country?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And during the second interview in 2004 did they repeat that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What happened then?
10 A. Then I met with this -- this -- yes, Roy is his name. We talked
11 and he said to me that they would no longer call me, that we had finished
12 all our talks. But I said to him: I don't believe that, that you won't
13 call me anymore, because I was in Sarajevo
14 Nedzarici at the UN there.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. However, he did call me again. I know that he'd call me.
17 Q. I got this from the OTP. I got it on the 26th of January this
18 year, I got it just now before you came here. They mention here
19 specifically 17 contacts that they had with you, and they say:
20 "During the third contact on the 1st of December, 2002
21 investigator talked to you then," I'm not going to mention the name
22 because otherwise we'll have to redact the transcript again. And then
23 also there was counsel for the Prosecution. That's a prosecuting trial
24 attorney. Can I mention that person's name, Judges, without you
25 redacting the transcript?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Tom Hannis. Do you remember that interview, that talk with Tom
4 Hannis? It says here:
5 "The witness was told that his request for relocation is being
6 refused," that you were told that in December 2002; is that correct?
7 A. I don't remember that at all.
8 Q. And then they say:
9 "The witness stated that he was disappointed by that fact and
10 repeated questions related to his safety if he testifies in The Hague
11 Nevertheless, the witness did mention that he is still willing to
12 co-operate with the OTP and that he would testify under full protective
14 Were you told at all in which trial you could testify then?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you were prepared to testify in any trial?
17 A. Here?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you were never told in which trial?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. And they say that they refused your request --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have about two
24 minutes left.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I am just about to
1 finish, Mr. President. I had to speed things up at the beginning. Now I
2 can ask these questions with some ease which are not so important, but
3 they enter into the merits of the behaviour of the Prosecution.
4 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the 20th of February, 2008, you were called by the OTP and
6 asked whether you would testify in this case. You said at the time that
7 you wanted to be a witness for the Defence. And then that you said that
8 actually you do not wish to testify for any party. And then you
9 expressed the opinion that you were put in a highly vulnerable position
10 by the driver, and then that the Court would send a summons for you to
11 appear. Did you repeat your thesis that you were in danger in order to
12 try to find for yourself shelter in a third country?
13 A. I did not repeat any such request at all. I told them nicely
14 that whenever they called me that I wanted to be a witness of the
15 Defence, and if you're interested there's something else that you may not
16 know. They asked me to come here on the 15th of January and not on the
17 25th when it was scheduled. I couldn't --
18 Q. That isn't so important. I'm just checking what the OTP says
19 about you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To end I'd like to ask the witness
21 to look at this document which we've already shown during the hearing of
22 some other witnesses. It has to do with Arsen Grahovac. The OTP has it
23 and so does the Trial Chamber, and that will bring my cross-examination
24 to an end.
25 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, may we see the document before it's
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a document whereby the
3 president of Nevesinje municipality confirms that Arsen Grahovac was a
4 member of the Serbian Renewal Movement until his death. You received
5 that two years ago and you have that document. I showed that during the
6 testimony of a protected witness, let me remind you, Judges, but I got
7 this already in 2007.
8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you look at it. Could you read it, please? It's short.
10 This is chief Branislav Mikovic, you know him?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And it issues a certificate. He refers to the general
13 administrative procedure. Would you please read it out.
14 A. They took it away.
15 THE ACCUSED: Would you be so kind to give it to witness, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you speak English?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know English at all.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you speak perfect
19 English, better English than I do.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Judge. That just appears to be
22 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you please read the text?
24 A. The whole text?
25 Q. No, just before -- underneath the word "certificate."
1 A. I see.
2 "Certificate, this is to certify that Grahovac, Blagoje, Arsen
3 born on the 4th of January, 1955, in Nevesinje, as a candidate of the
4 Serbian Renewal Movement was elected deputy to the Assembly of Nevesinje
5 municipality at elections held on the 18th of November, 1990, and that he
6 performed that duty until he was killed on the 22nd of August, 1992.
7 "The certificate is being issued to be used as evidence that
8 Grahovac, father's name Blagoje, first name Arsen, was a deputy of
9 Nevesinje Municipal Assembly in the mentioned period as a candidate of
10 the Serbian Renewal Movement, chief of the municipality Branislav
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. The
14 usher can pass on the document to members of the Trial Chamber, if you
15 wish to have it, but I did give it to you two years ago.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Ms. Biersay, you have five minutes, and I believe -- well, my
18 fellow Judge had a question earlier, but I think she no longer has any
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.
23 Further cross-examination by Ms. Biersay:
24 Q. Mr. Dabic, I'd like to understand exactly what it is that you're
25 saying. Are you saying that in 2000, in November of 2000, an OTP
1 investigator promised you on the spot that you would be taken to a third
2 country in exchange for your statement? Is that what you're telling this
3 Trial Chamber?
4 A. You see --
5 Q. Simply, please. I have five minutes.
6 A. -- during the conversation.
7 Q. -- is -- yes or no, is that what you're telling the
8 Trial Chamber? And then I'll ask another question depending on what you
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And you're saying that Brigitte Germain promised you that in
12 exchange for your statement; is that correct?
13 A. After --
14 Q. Is that what you're saying --
15 A. -- I gave the statement --
16 Q. -- are you saying that she promised you relocation in exchange
17 for your statement, yes or no?
18 A. I'm telling you nicely, after the conversation she said she would
19 do everything she could.
20 Q. So -- everything that she could. And what exactly did she tell
21 you, you would have to do to be relocated?
22 A. I understood it to be a promise, and all that I was supposed to
23 do was to recount this period from the beginning until the end of the war
24 what was happening in Mostar and eastern Herzegovina.
25 Q. Did she tell you that you had to lie in your statement in order
1 to get relocation to a third country?
2 A. No, she didn't tell me to lie, but I keep saying that I think --
3 Q. You have to listen closely to my questions. I have five minutes
4 and I have been very efficient. Are you telling the Trial Chamber that
5 you told lies in your 2000 statement? Is that what you're telling them?
6 A. I said and told her --
7 Q. Excuse me --
8 A. -- all the things I had heard and seen --
9 Q. -- I am asking you if you're telling this Trial Chamber that you
10 lied in the 2000 statement that we have been looking at yesterday and
11 today; is that what you're telling the Trial Chamber?
12 A. I have just -- I have just said that I didn't lie. That's out of
13 the question. I was saying what I knew, what I heard, and what I had
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection, Judges. I
16 think Ms. Biersay is trying to frighten the witness. I think the witness
17 should be told that it -- he is not up for punishment if he tells lies to
18 the Prosecution. He could be punished if he lies to the Court.
19 MS. BIERSAY: I'm sorry, that would be a misrepresentation -- he
20 would be lying here in the court and that would be a punishable offence,
21 so that is incorrect legal advice.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please rephrase your question
23 because the -- maybe the witness did not understand it correctly. Could
24 you please reformulate it and please speak slowly to make sure that the
25 translation is accurate.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, I see a full question and full answer
2 on the screen. I'm going to move to another question.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is important.
4 Witness, you made a statement in 2000. When you made the
5 statement, did you lie, yes or no? This is the question put to you by
6 Ms. Biersay.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You did not lie.
9 Does this mean that everything included in this November 2000 statement
10 is true?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you nicely in
12 Serbian - and I'm repeating and you can understand because you have
13 interpreters - I made this statement or statements according to what I
14 had heard, what I had seen, and where I was present. So what I heard I
15 really couldn't believe these things because I do not believe things that
16 I don't see. What I saw I told them.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must make another
18 objection. The witness said repeatedly that he was surprised by certain
19 sections even in the 2000 statement. It said, for instance, that he's
20 good at martial arts, judo, karate, and that he jumped from a helicopter
21 at a height of 50 metres. And now we are told that that is not true.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is on the record.
23 Ms. Biersay, please continue. He answered your question. Please
25 MS. BIERSAY:
1 Q. When you met with the officer from the Victims and Witnesses Unit
2 on the 27th May 2002, he specifically asked you whether or not the OTP
3 had promised you anything, and you told him:
4 "No, they have not."
5 Isn't that true?
6 A. I didn't understand the question.
7 Q. You were asked by the protection officer whether or not OTP had
8 made any promises to you about relocation, and you told them -- you told
10 "No, they have not made me any promises."
11 Isn't that true?
12 A. As far as I can remember, and if my brain is working properly I
13 don't remember the officer asking me that. I don't know. This really
14 was a long time ago.
15 Q. So let me ask you this --
16 A. And this talk with the officer didn't last long.
17 Q. Let me ask you this: Didn't the officer tell you that no one
18 could make promises to you about relocation because of the appearance of
19 it looking improper and it was not a proper thing to do, to make someone
20 promises about relocation. Didn't he tell you that?
21 A. I'm repeating once again that I don't remember, but I do remember
22 saying to him that I didn't feel safe in Serbia, where I was living --
23 Q. That's a different question. I appreciate that. That was not my
24 question. I am now asking you that between 2004 to 2007 --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, you've run out of
1 time, so just finish your question.
2 MS. BIERSAY:
3 Q. Between 2004 and 2007 did you ever file a report or tell anyone
4 about misconduct on the -- on behalf of the OTP?
5 A. Between 2004 and 2007?
6 Q. Between 2004 and April of 2007.
7 A. I think I did not.
8 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dabic, on behalf of my
10 fellow Judges -- my fellow didn't have a question but now she suddenly
11 has one.
12 Further Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, it came after an answer
14 provided by the witness.
15 He said that he did not feel safe. I would like to know why. Is
16 it because you had lied that you didn't feel safe or is it because you
17 had told the truth that you didn't feel safe?
18 A. I think first of all I must repeat once again that I did not lie,
19 that I said what I had heard and what I saw --
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, witness, answer. It's
21 either one or the other. You did not feel safe because you had lied; or
22 option number two, you did not feel safe because you had told the truth?
23 There are only two options. Why else wouldn't you feel safe after having
24 made statements to the OTP of this Tribunal?
25 A. Yes. When I gave those statements that year, it had been learnt
1 that I had given those statements, statements which were correct. And of
2 course it's normal for me to have been afraid.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.
5 Witness, as I wanted to tell you, I would like to thank you to
6 have come to testify on behalf of -- from the Trial Chamber, because you
7 had been called by the Trial Chamber as a witness and you answered
8 questions by the Trial Chamber, by the -- put to you by the Prosecution,
9 and by Mr. Seselj. I wish you a safe return home, and I would like to
10 ask our usher to escort you out of this courtroom.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before closing I
12 have a very brief administrative issue to raise.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll deal with this after the
14 witness has left the courtroom. You may leave.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Procedural questions,
18 Mr. Seselj?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not wish to tire you with any
20 written submissions. On the 22nd of January, 2010, I received from the
21 OTP the public document to accept -- to admit into evidence P00019, 326,
22 327, and 328, and the OTP is requesting in an addendum that my speech of
23 the 4th of September in 1989 should be admitted into evidence. And they
24 say that I held this speech in the St. Nicolas Serbian Orthodox church in
1 same place. I just wanted to let you know that on the 4th of September,
2 1989, I was not in Canada
3 and beginning of October I was on a tour of Great Britain, France
5 in Canada
6 December, and this can be verified with the Canadian immigration
7 authorities. The speech may have been truthful, but at that time I was
8 not in Canada
9 with a written submission about it.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will look
11 into these documents. I don't know exactly where we stand. It seems --
12 these documents seem to say that you made a speech when you were in
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] President, I was in Canada
15 on that date, neither was I there three months before that or three
16 months after that. In September I simply was not in Canada.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday, the Trial Chamber
18 was seized of a request for an MFI
19 make sure on the screen that it's well transcribed. P880, P881, P882,
20 P883, and P884.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are all witness statements,
22 are they?
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
24 Ms. Biersay.
25 MS. BIERSAY: Just to be precise, the Prosecution is only asking
1 for the admission of P880 and P881, which I believe are the 2000 and 2004
2 statements respectively. We are not seeking the admission of the others.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I express my position?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know, Judges, that in principle
7 I am opposed to the admission of statements by witnesses, either to the
8 Prosecution or the Defence. The Anglo-Saxon law does not recognise such
9 a procedure. It is impossible according to Anglo-Saxon law. In European
10 continental law it is also impossible. In European law you may make a
11 statement before an investigating judge, and that may be admitted into
12 evidence if the defence was present during the hearing. And if the
13 prosecutor is conducting the investigation, again the defence must be
14 present and have the possibility to examine. But anything taken by the
15 Prosecution without the presence of the defence or taken by the police
16 without the presence of the defence or if the witness renounces the right
17 to the presence of counsel cannot be admitted into evidence.
18 I'm in a dilemma now. In principle I am against, but intimately
19 it would suit my interest for both those documents to be admitted because
20 they illustrate the behaviour of the OTP. I hope you heard my last
21 sentence. And they put it in a very bad light.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I did hear because whilst we
23 were talking among ourselves I was listening to you. We are very well
24 aware of this problem you have addressed previously. After discussing
25 the matter, the Trial Chamber decides to admit five statements. The
1 first statement was made to the Prosecution on the 10th of November,
2 2000, it will be P880. Second statement, statement to the Prosecution on
3 the 9th and 10th of June, 2004, it will be P881. Third statement to the
4 Defence, on the 11th of May, 2007, it will be P882. Fourth statement to
5 the Defence on the 7th of June, 2007, it will be P883. And the
6 Trial Chamber also admits the fifth statement that was made to the
7 Defence on the 14th of October, 2008, it will be P884.
8 Next week we are scheduled to have a witness on Tuesday and
9 Wednesday. Apparently there's no problem about it if I remember well.
10 It should be Witness VS-1067, a Chamber witness from memory. I may be
11 mistaken, but I believe that the Judges are going to use an hour and a
12 half, same amount of time for the Prosecution and also for Mr. Seselj. I
13 mean, this is what I remember. It might be one hour -- no, it's one hour
14 and 30 minutes. Yes, this has just been confirmed by the Legal Officer.
15 Very well. So an hour and a half for the Judges, an hour and a half for
16 the Prosecution, and the same amount of time for the -- for Mr. Seselj.
17 And as usual, we're going to share the load among ourselves, each Judge
18 using 30 minutes.
19 Oh, thank you, Mr. Registrar. Regarding the schedule -- thank
20 you, Mr. Registrar, because the Legal Officer was wrong, but nothing
21 escapes the Registrar's attention. We have a decision of the 8th of
22 December, 2009, regarding VS-1067. It was scheduled to be one hour. So
23 one hour for the questions by the Judges, one hour for the Prosecution,
24 and one hour for the Defence represented by Mr. Seselj himself. So it
25 was one hour.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Very quickly, I believe Mr. Marcussen has an issue
2 to address to the Court, but with respect to the testimony of the
3 previous witness, the Prosecution will move for the admission of the
4 certificate that Mr. Seselj showed the witness, and that is 65 ter number
5 1636, and we would also move now for the admission of 65 ter number 1910,
6 which discusses the certificate that Mr. Seselj showed to the witness.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Mr. Seselj, I suppose you do not object to having this document
9 you used admitted into evidence?
10 Mr. Registrar, let's have a number for the document, for the
12 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1636 will be Exhibit P888, and 65
13 ter number 0910 will be Exhibit P889.
14 MS. BIERSAY: I'm sorry, that's 1910.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I stand corrected, 65 ter 0910 will be
16 Exhibit P889.
17 MS. BIERSAY: 1910.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1910 will be 889.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is going to be P889.
21 Yes, Mr. Marcussen, we have three minutes left. What do you have
22 to say?
23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, the accused has made an oral
24 response to the motion that was filed by the Prosecution on the 20th of
25 January this year. He has asserted, as he did earlier on, when these
1 videos that the motion concern were shown, that he was not in Canada
2 the time. The Prosecution has provided arguments as to why the videos
3 were taken at the location that we say they were taken. If the accused
4 wants to provide evidence in support of his view that he was not in
6 in court that he -- well, he can just assert in court that he was not in
8 support this claim if he wants to make it, otherwise he hasn't done
9 anything other than simply making an assertion.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have taken due note of what
11 Mr. Seselj has said and of what you said. Of course, the Trial Chamber
12 will rule on this.
13 Thank you. I want to thank everybody. We shall reconvene next
14 week on Tuesday morning.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of
17 February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.