Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15704

 1                           Wednesday, 10 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9     This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  This is

11     Wednesday, and I welcome all the representatives from the OTP and

12     Mr. Seselj as well, of course, as our witness.

13             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.

14                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VS-1058 [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1058, yesterday we stated together and we

18     established why the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were sent to

19     Eastern Slavonia.  You confirmed that the main and the only reason was to

20     defend the threat on Serbian villages; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   However, I expect from you to know, like the whole of Serbia

23     knows, that I personally and the Serbian Radical Party that I belonged to

24     before the war, during the war, and after the war that we advocated the

25     ideology of a Greater Serbia; is that correct?

Page 15705

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   However, it would be ridiculous to go to Sodolovci, or to

 3     Ernestinovo, Laslovo, or Tenja, or Borovo Selo, and to create a Greater

 4     Serbia there; wouldn't that be ridiculous?

 5        A.   I don't think I understood your question properly.

 6        Q.   In order to create a Greater Serbia, one would have to encompass

 7     the entire area inhabited by Serbs, the Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Serbs, and

 8     Catholic Serbs, and not only just a few villages in the eastern part of

 9     Slavonia where we sent volunteers before the JNA entered the war.  Did

10     you hear of any other volunteers being sent anywhere else but Eastern

11     Slavonia before 1991?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Are you aware that we indeed are proponents of a Greater Serbia,

14     my party, the Serbian Radical Party, and myself?  Do you have any doubts

15     about it that?

16        A.   If you say so, in principle I am not interested in politics.  I

17     am -- I don't engage in politics.

18        Q.   However, nobody told you in Belgrade that you were being sent to

19     fight for a Greater Serbia.  You went and you had been told that you were

20     being sent to defend the Serbian villages threatened by the newly

21     established Ustasha government in Croatia?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.  If anybody had told me that that was the

23     idea, I would not have gone.

24        Q.   Well, nobody told you to do that, and we have established that.

25     And now you saw in your statement in several places and you denied the

Page 15706

 1     fact that the Prosecutor who typed the statement on your behalf and you

 2     signed it, he insisted on a Greater Serbia and my alleged speeches to

 3     volunteers.  Wouldn't it be ridiculous to say that if about ten of you

 4     were sitting in a room that I entered that room and gave a speech about a

 5     Greater Serbia; wouldn't that be ridiculous?

 6        A.   You are right there, but I repeat I did not hear you giving a

 7     speech.  I never heard you say something like that to me.

 8        Q.   So you completely deny what is contained in your statement and

 9     concerns my speech about a Greater Serbia?

10        A.   That part and the part where you are mentioned as my leader.  Let

11     me just explain one thing.  I don't want the Trial Chamber or anybody

12     else to think that I lie or that I'm here to change my statements, but

13     yesterday we detected four mistakes -- actually, I detected just two.  I

14     was hardly waiting to be sent home, and I may have missed the other two

15     mistakes.  I didn't pay any -- much attention.  If I had seen them, then

16     I would have corrected the Prosecutor there and then, but I omitted to do

17     that.

18        Q.   It is my conviction that you presented the facts, that you were

19     very precise when you provided your statement, and that you were a

20     reliable person.  There's not much for me to deny with regard to the

21     facts that you presented.  But your first interview lasted two days; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   [No interpretation]

25        A.   Let's avoid any mistakes.  It was not two days in a row.

Page 15707

 1        Q.   It says here on the 21st and 22nd April, 2004?

 2        A.   I believe that there was one day break between the two days, but

 3     I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   I am more inclined to believe you than the OTP, but it says here

 5     21 and 22 April.

 6        A.   You mean 2004?  In that case it's possible.

 7        Q.   And on the -- at the end of day two you were given the statement

 8     in English?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you read that statement?

11        A.   Yes, I read it.

12        Q.   And you speak enough English to be able to maintain a

13     communication?  That's what I concluded.

14        A.   Yes, I can communicate to a certain extent, but I can read much

15     better.  I work with computers and I need English for that.  But what I'm

16     saying is that I omitted that mistake.

17        Q.   But did you read everything attentively, every page?

18        A.   No, I was hardly waiting to be sent home.

19        Q.   So you just glanced and skimmed through the statement and then

20     you signed it?

21        A.   I believe that I corrected one or two mistakes, I'm not sure.

22     And then that was that.

23        Q.   But nobody actually read the Serbian translation back to you?

24        A.   As far as I remember, no.

25        Q.   [No interpretation]

Page 15708

 1        A.   That was six years ago, so please do not --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Could you please slow down,

 3     Mr. Witness and Mr. Seselj.  You have to slow down.  It's almost

 4     impossible for the interpreters to follow you.  You're much too fast.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] And please make a break between

 7     the question and the answer.  Thank you.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So when the statement was over, it was given to you to read in

10     English, which is not your mother tongue, and you signed it without

11     reading the Serbian translation; is that correct?

12        A.   I can't be sure that -- it is possible that I also saw the

13     Serbian translation.  It was six years ago, so I can't remember.

14        Q.   So if it is possible that you saw the Serbian translation, I'm

15     sure that nobody actually read the translation to you out loud?

16        A.   I didn't read it myself.

17        Q.   And here the OTP has deceived you and told you that you actually

18     confirmed that the statement had been read back to you in the Serbian

19     language, and you do not remember at all that the statement was read to

20     you in the Serbian language in 2004?

21        A.   As I've just told you, it was six years ago.  I really can't

22     remember.

23        Q.   Very well.  And then you were again called on 2006 and you were

24     invited to come for just one day?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15709

 1        Q.   And when you spoke with Dan Saxon and Marie Costello, how long

 2     did your conversation last on that occasion?

 3        A.   I can't be sure.  Maybe a couple of hours, two hours.  Or perhaps

 4     three, I'm not sure.  Or maybe even longer.  I really can't remember.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Seselj's microphone is not on.

 7             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I will repeat my question.  Did -- on the second occasion when

 9     you met with the OTP, did you read the statement yourself or was the

10     statement interpreted to you by the Prosecutors?  Did they read the

11     statement to you?

12        A.   I believe that I read the statement, and we spoke about a few

13     issues.  I'm not sure.  I can't remember, I'm telling you.  I can't

14     remember those interviews.  I virtually forgot all about them until my

15     memory was jogged here.

16        Q.   So if you don't remember, I will no longer insist on those

17     interviews.  There's no need for that.

18             The first time you came to Belgrade you could not be sent to

19     Eastern Slavonia because the capacity for the training centre in

20     Prigrevica was full.  You spent a couple of days -- you slept in the

21     party premises, and then you returned to Smederevo?

22        A.   On the first occasion, I believe that I stayed two days.

23        Q.   And the next time you were invited to come, you came with your

24     own weapons; it was a German make, Smajser, automatic weapon, as far as I

25     could understand?

Page 15710

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It was a trophy from the Second World War?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When you arrived at the headquarters of the party, did they tell

 5     you that you couldn't go to the bus with that automatic rifle but that

 6     somebody would bring that automatic rifle subsequently to you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did they explain to you that you could not take the weapon on to

 9     the bus because the police might stop you and then that would be a

10     problem because there would be a lot of questions about where you were

11     going and why you were armed?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you know that at the time we sent volunteers hiding that fact

14     from the police of Serbia?

15        A.   Yes, we were told that.

16        Q.   So that means that you travelled on the bus without any uniforms,

17     without any weapons, and the fact was hidden from the police?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then you arrived in Prigrevica.  On the way, the bus took

20     some scenic routes to avoid being noticed?

21        A.   Yes.  The journey was long, but I didn't notice that fact because

22     I was not familiar with the route.

23        Q.   You arrived in Prigrevica in an abandoned farm, and that was the

24     centre for the training of volunteers; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15711

 1        Q.   And you stayed for two weeks in training?

 2        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 3        Q.   And the training was enough for you to jog your memory about what

 4     you had learned in the army because all of you had been in compulsory

 5     military training before the war?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in Prigrevica you trained with very old weapons; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, those were old M-48 rifles.

 9        Q.   That's the old rifle that had been used by the JNA but was

10     withdrawn from use?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was there any other old weapons that were used there?

13        A.   No, I don't think so.  I can't remember.

14        Q.   In one place in your statement you say that a general came to

15     that centre and Milan Paroski, the two of them came to the centre for

16     training?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Does it mean that in addition to members of the

19     Serbian Radical Party in Prigrevica there were members of other parties

20     as well?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you hear of Jovo Ostojic; does the name ring a bell?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Was he your boss in that training centre in Prigrevica?

25        A.   He was a local as far as I could tell, and he assisted.  He took

Page 15712

 1     care of the supplies, the food.

 2        Q.   He was in charge for -- together with the instructors?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know that Jovo Ostojic was at the time a member of the

 5     Serbian Democratic Party for Serbia?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you hear that maybe a year later he became a member of the

 8     Serbian Radical Party and became an MP?

 9        A.   I heard his name mentioned on TV several times.  I saw him on a

10     few occasions, but I did not put two and two together.

11        Q.   Did you hear that because of the war merits I proclaimed him the

12     Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda?

13        A.   I heard that.  I didn't know if it was true.

14        Q.   It was true, and I'm very proud of that because he deserves that

15     merit.

16             Did you see members of the Serbian Renewal Movement, Paroski, the

17     Serbian National Renewal, and some other parties?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   There were members of the Serbian Renewal Movement for a while

20     until Vuk Draskovic decided to establish his own paramilitary formation,

21     Serbian card [as interpreted], and then he stopped sending volunteers?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you remember that Draskovic appointed the worst criminals from

24     Belgrade as commanders of that paramilitary army?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15713

 1        Q.   Do you know that we, representatives of different opposition

 2     parties, previously made an agreement with the associations of -- the

 3     Association of Serbs from Croatia to jointly send the volunteers and

 4     train them in that centre in Prigrevica?

 5        A.   I don't know.  Believe me, I wasn't -- was not aware of that.

 6        Q.   You said that there were approximately 70 per cent members of the

 7     Serbian Radical Party and some 30 per cent of all the others, if I

 8     remember your statement correctly?

 9        A.   To be honest, I didn't count heads.  It is possible that most of

10     us were Radicals, but I can't be sure.  I can't tell you exactly.

11        Q.   And the general that came to visit you, you didn't know his name?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And if I tell you that that was the famous partisan general,

14     Dusan Pekic, the secretary or the president of the lines of the veterans

15     of the liberation war for Yugoslavia, would that mean anything to you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So now I just reminded you that there was Dusan Pekic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you remember that General Dusan Pekic was a number one man in

20     the association of Serbs from Croatia who assisted the Serbian autonomous

21     provinces and sending volunteers?

22        A.   I didn't know that.

23        Q.   Did you know that General Dusan Pekic took from the military

24     storehouses all the weapons that the JNA had planned to destroy and

25     provided them to you?

Page 15714

 1        A.   I heard something about it.  I'm not quite sure how true that is.

 2        Q.   And that is how the glorious partisan general Dusan Pekic and I,

 3     the nascent, the just-proclaimed Chetnik Vojvoda, found ourselves in a

 4     joint struggle, working on the reconciliation -- the national

 5     reconciliation of the Chetniks and the Partisans.  Is this symbolic to

 6     you or is it not?

 7        A.   It could be.

 8        Q.   Do you know that the JNA, a year before that, took the weapons of

 9     all the Territorial Defences of the republics and provinces and put them

10     in its depots?

11        A.   That is something I found out later.

12        Q.   Do you know that there were many obsolete pieces of weaponry

13     there, carbines, 48; Thompson, American automatic rifles; and Spagin, the

14     Russian type of automatic rifles; M-56s, and similar obsolete pieces of

15     weaponry?

16        A.   That -- those weapons were distributed to the volunteers as the

17     primary type of weapon because there was no other type at that time.

18        Q.   This was distributed to you at the time when the JNA was not yet

19     participating in combat?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   But we provided those weapons next to General Dusan Pekic.  I

22     never wanted to mention his name in public and here at the Tribunal while

23     General Pekic was alive.  Did you ever hear me mention his name?

24        A.   To be sincere, I did not follow the proceedings of this Tribunal.

25        Q.   General Pekic died two years ago, and now I can candidly speak

Page 15715

 1     about this without inflicting any harm on him.  Because this

 2     Western regime can no longer arrest him.  That is obvious, is it not?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Tell me, when you were transferred to the Serbian villages in

 5     Eastern Slavonia, there was weapons already waiting for you there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Precisely of the type that I referred to?

 8        A.   Yes, the Spagins, the Thompsons, and the M-56s, the Yugoslav

 9     butts, as they were called.

10        Q.   Do you remember that I often told journalists who were always

11     talking me that we got those weapons from abroad through Hungary?

12        A.   I can't remember.  I was already there.  We did not watch much TV

13     at the time.

14        Q.   And when Slobodan Milosevic decided to accept the Vance-Owen Plan

15     and when we severely clashed with his regime, do you remember me telling

16     that it was him and his police who gave us the weapons because I wanted

17     to heckle him as much as possible?

18        A.   I do not remember, believe me.

19        Q.   As regards this secret where we got our weapons and how

20     Dusan Pekic provided the armaments for us is something that I never told

21     anybody, but now I can say it in public because this is a historic fact.

22     And there was quite a lot of weaponry, was it not so?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Although it was obsolete?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15716

 1        Q.   On the other hand, the Croats had the most sophisticated

 2     weaponry; is that true?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember me saying at a press conference, it was on TV,

 5     how I shot an anti-tank rocket-thrower, the Hamdas [phoen] type, of

 6     German manufacture, which was the most modern anti-tank weapon at the

 7     time?

 8        A.   I cannot remember that now.

 9        Q.   This was seised by volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party in

10     battles around Mirkovci, Kosta Carina, later, combatants there, have you

11     heard about him?

12        A.   No, I have heard about him, but I never met him.

13        Q.   Okay we have clarified that.  Now, you came to those villages,

14     you said what villages those were, and there you were assigned to

15     Territorial Defence units; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Under the command of the local TO commanders and the more

18     prominent volunteers themselves were appointed commanders or "komandirs"

19     of certain units up to company level?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   Srecko Radovanovic was one of those who were appointed to such a

22     post --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is not on.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Some ranks were referred to that volunteers had.  Do you know

Page 15717

 1     anything about this?

 2        A.   As far as I know, from the beginning we actually addressed one

 3     another by ranks.  You would be either a reserve commanding officer or

 4     junior lieutenant, and such.

 5        Q.   Yesterday I gave you some three documents.  I hope that you still

 6     have them.  Or have they taken them from you?  I would like to use again

 7     the Greater Serbia paper from July 2 -- 1997.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 9     page 7.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is a paper of the Serbian Radical Party and the

12     Serbian Chetnik Movement.  At that time actually it was only of the

13     Serbian Chetnik Movement.  Can you see the front page?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Later this became the paper of the Serbian Radical Party.  Now I

16     should like to ask you to turn to page 7.  This is a big feature story

17     from Ravna Gora, where there was a celebration to mark the uprising day

18     which was -- the uprising which was initiated in 1941 by the glorious

19     general Draza Mihajlovic; you have heard of him?

20        A.   Yes.  What page did you say I should look at?

21        Q.   Page 7.  There at Ravna Gora was a big celebration where some

22     10.000 people had assembled.  I delivered a passionate patriotic speech

23     there, and then a proclamation of Vojvoda Momcilo Djujic was read out,

24     which had been sent from America.  Here you can see towards the end of

25     page 7 this proclamation starts with the words, "Brothers, Serbs,

Page 15718

 1     sisters, Serbian women, Serbian chosen people ..."

 2             Did you see that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, go to page 8.  Here you see a photograph of Vojvoda -- of

 5     Duke Momcilo Djujic, the proclamation continues.  And this is marked in

 6     handwriting as page 11, but it should be page 9 in the newspaper.  Have

 7     you found it?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   All right.  Towards the end of the first column, the second

10     paragraph from the top, Vojvoda Djujic is speaking about the victory of

11     the Serbian Chetniks in Borovo Selo and says in this paragraph --

12     actually, can you read it for yourself or shall I read it?

13        A.   It will be easier if you read it.  I'm not sure I found it.

14        Q.   "For the success and courage demonstrated, I have decorated and

15     promoted to the rank of Major Mr. Todosijevic, commander of Chetnik

16     platoon; Mr. Denis Bareta, deputy commander to the rank of captain; and

17     all the other courageous Chetnik combatants I have promoted to officer

18     rank.  The Serbian nation is grateful to them, and their names will

19     remain inscribed in the glorious history of the Serbian Chetnik

20     Movement."

21             Did I read it correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there a problem?

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I waited a moment so you could

25     understand that there is -- it takes time before what you say is

Page 15719

 1     translated.  You must understand that.  And we can't follow.  If you

 2     think that it's no problem for everyone not to follow, fine, go on.  But

 3     I can tell you that I as a Judge cannot follow because the interpreters

 4     are panting.  They just can't catch up with you.  You are going much too

 5     fast.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I would really like

 7     you and your colleagues to follow me, but I have so much to say, so much

 8     information that I would like to present here, so I speed up quite

 9     unconsciously.  I will try and avoid that, but it will again happen.  I

10     know myself only too well.  What can I do?  In any case, I'll try and

11     slow down.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please wait before you

13     answer.  At least your answers are shorter than the questions.  So,

14     Witness, please wait a while before you start answering.  So wait for

15     Mr. Seselj to be finished with his question, then wait a little while,

16     and then we can have your answer; otherwise, we cannot hear your answer

17     and we can't follow.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The proclamation ends there and then Duke Djujic signs his name

21     as the president of the dukedom council and the president of the Chetnik

22     Movement in the free world; you see that at the end?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And now you see that there were certain occasions when ranks were

25     distributed and that that was done by Duke Momcilo Djujic; however, those

Page 15720

 1     ranks were assigned only up to September 1991, until the moment when we

 2     reached an agreement about the inclusion of the volunteers of the

 3     Serbian Radical Party directly into the units of the

 4     Yugoslav People's Army.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   When the Yugoslav People's Army engaged in combat and we joined

 7     them, then their rules applied to all of us; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I don't remember a single case of anybody having been given a

10     rank outside of the JNA after September 1991.  There may have been such

11     occasions, but I don't remember any such occasions, do you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You do or you don't?

14        A.   No, no, no.

15        Q.   Very well.  You automatically said "yes," so -- anyway.

16             We have resolved this issue.  Do you know that sometime in 1991

17     there was a clash between myself and Duke Djujic, that the two of us

18     clashed?

19        A.   At that time, I was in a theatre of war, so --

20        Q.   Did you hear that the things that did not function as they should

21     have, even later?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If I told you that we clashed because Duke Momcilo Djujic had

24     sent me Dr. Milos Prica as my main political advisor and after my first

25     contact with Dr. Prica I realised that he wanted me to provoke a civil

Page 15721

 1     war in Serbia and I rejected, I declined his services, and that was the

 2     reason why I clashed with Djujic.  Do you know that?  Does that tell you

 3     anything?  Does this sound like a credible explanation for my clash with

 4     Duke Djujic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you hear that after that Duke Djujic sent the same person,

 7     Milos Prica from America to Biljana Plavsic and that he made

 8     Biljana Plavsic to become a traitor of the Serbian people; does that mean

 9     anything to you?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you know that the same Milos Prica is the ambassador of Bosnia

12     and Herzegovina in New York?

13        A.   No, I didn't know that.

14        Q.   Very well.  We have said that for the Trial Chamber, the general

15     public who follow the trial, and the OTP.  Now they know.

16             Okay, you were now in Eastern Slavonia, the combat is ongoing,

17     and fighting stops in November; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   A large number of volunteers returned after that to Serbia; is

20     that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You, Srecko Radovanovic, and a certain number of others who had

23     made your name there as capable men found jobs in the police as far as I

24     understand; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15722

 1        Q.   We sent volunteers to defend the Serbian autonomous province,

 2     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In addition to that, in the territory of the Croatian federal

 5     unit, there was the Serbian Autonomous Province of Western Slavonia and

 6     Krajina; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, you're right.

 8        Q.   The three Serbian autonomous provinces were established in order

 9     to prevent Croatian separatism; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the Serbs insisted on the preservation of those autonomous --

12     for the future in order to prevent any future Croatian separatist

13     attempts; is that correct?

14             However, despite of that, after the Vance Plan, Croatia was

15     recognised as an independent state; then the Serbs decided to unite those

16     three autonomous provinces into the Republic of Serbian Krajina because

17     they concluded if Croatia was to secede from Yugoslavia, they would

18     secede from Croatia; is that correct.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   It was only after the end of combat and fighting and after the

21     implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan and after the international

22     recognition of the independence of the Croatian state, the

23     Republic of Serbian Krajina was established, it was only then; am I

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15723

 1        Q.   The establishment of the Serbian Republic of Serbian Krajina was

 2     the consequence of Croatian separatism and not something that preceded

 3     Croatian separatism; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So that move was imposed upon the Serbian people; it was not

 6     their struggle for a Greater Serbia; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Since you worked as a police officer for a time, you were

 9     selected as the best to go for training in Pajzos; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is not on.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I remember that Srecko Radovanovic called me on the telephone and

15     consulted me, asking me whether to go or not, and I told him to make his

16     own decision.  I did not have anything against it.  It was the JNA who

17     wanted you, it is to your honour, but you have to decide yourself.  You

18     didn't consult anybody.  You accepted the invitation immediately; is that

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   When you worked as a policeman in Eastern Slavonia, you carried

22     police ID cards, you were professional policemen?

23        A.   Yes, and we were paid by the police.

24        Q.   When you arrived in Pajzos, did you keep the police documentation

25     of the Serbian Republic of Krajina?

Page 15724

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Were you given some other IDs?

 3        A.   Yes, later.

 4        Q.   What IDs were you given?

 5        A.   We were given Serbian IDs.

 6        Q.   From Serbia?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you have that ID?  Did you keep it?

 9        A.   No, I returned it when I was wounded.

10        Q.   I find it very strange that you were provided with IDs of the

11     Republic of Serbia.  Where is Pajzos?

12        A.   In Vojvodina.

13        Q.   I have to correct you.  Pajzos is near Ilok in the

14     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  It is currently the territory under

15     Croatian occupation.  It was never in Vojvodina.

16        A.   I apologise.  I was absolutely convinced that it was in

17     Vojvodina.

18        Q.   Pajzos is in Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which is

19     currently the territory under Croatian control?

20        A.   I know that it is near Ilok, but I thought it was Vojvodina.  I

21     was there only once for those few days.

22        Q.   But then maybe this is a mistake.  How come you were provided

23     with Serbian mistake -- with Serbian ID in Pajzos?

24        A.   No, it's not a mistake.

25        Q.   When you left for Pajzos to go to Bosanski Samac, did you have

Page 15725

 1     military booklets?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And your participation in the fighting in Samac, was that

 4     recorded in your military booklet?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   So how could you join the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA if you

 7     didn't have a military booklet?

 8        A.   Can I explain, please?

 9        Q.   Go ahead.

10        A.   Whoever had a military booklet and the IDs that we had been

11     provided with before our departure to Bosnia, we had to return all those

12     and we received only platelets with ID numbers, like tags with ID

13     numbers, and our first and family names.

14        Q.   Did you ever hear of Ilija Vuckovic, also known as Rambo?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Was he your commander in Pajzos?

17        A.   He was in Ilok --

18        Q.   Hold on.  He was the commander of the centre in Pajzos, near

19     Ilok?

20        A.   Yes, but his residence was in Ilok.  He was the commander of both

21     centres.

22        Q.   Yesterday you said that Franko Simatovic, Frenki, had been your

23     commander?

24        A.   Frenki was his commander.  This one was the commander of the

25     training centre, not my immediate superior.

Page 15726

 1        Q.   You perhaps do not know that I'm in the same unit with

 2     Franko Simatovic here in the Detention Unit?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   He tells me that in Pajzos he was in Tito's villa in a radio

 5     interception centre.

 6        A.   Yes, he had his centre in Tito's villa, and why he was there is

 7     something I don't know.

 8        Q.   But you do know where the villa -- Tito's villa is?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  That is the vineyard.  It has houses, little sheds

10     for labourers, where we were housed when we were there for training.

11        Q.   Was this villa separated from your training centre?

12        A.   Yes, some 100 or 200 metres uphill.

13        Q.   And he says that he met Srecko Radovanovic several times there,

14     but they did not have any contacts along the line superior/subordinate?

15        A.   I do not know what he says.

16        Q.   Let us see what Ilija Vuckovic says.  He made a very short

17     statement.  This is document number one, I gave it to you yesterday.  Can

18     we have the usher give you that document, please, document number one.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Would you be so kind as to give him document number

20     one.  Not mine, not mine.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Shall we look at it together, just the first two paragraphs of

23     this statement.  Have you gotten the statement?

24        A.   Yes, I have received it.

25        Q.   Ilija Vuckovic called Rambo says:

Page 15727

 1             "I was the operational commander of the unit for special purposes

 2     of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

 3             So this is a special purpose unit of the Republic

 4     of Serbian Krajina.  Do you find anything odd there?

 5             "In the period from 1991 to the -- to March 1992, the seat of my

 6     unit was in Pajzos near Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

 7             Did you see that paragraph?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is there anything strange there?

10        A.   I don't know what exactly you are referring to.

11        Q.   Do you know that he was the operational commander of the special

12     purpose unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Pajzos near

13     Ilok at that time?

14        A.   As far as I knew things, he was the operational commander of the

15     training centre, of that camp; as for other things, I really don't know,

16     believe me.

17        Q.   All right.  In the second paragraph he says:

18             "I remember that in March 1992 a group arrived for specialised

19     training with members of the police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

20     This group included Srecko Radovanovic, whom we called the fat one,

21     Debeli.  It did not have any party emblems and it was not a party unit

22     because it consisted of members of different parties, and I did not ask

23     anyone nor ask anyone to declare themselves as to party affiliation.  The

24     training was organised by the JNA, and I know that this group, having

25     completed their training which was I believe in the first half of

Page 15728

 1     April 1992, together with members of the JNA, was transferred by JNA

 2     helicopters to Bosanski Samac."

 3             Are these facts true?

 4        A.   Yes, but I think that this was the beginning of April.  In the

 5     middle of April, on the 17th of April, Bosanski Samac was already taken.

 6        Q.   That is exactly what I say, in the first half of April.

 7        A.   I apologise.

 8        Q.   Is everything that he says correct?  You arrived in Samac by JNA

 9     helicopters and you joined the 17th Tactical Group under the command of

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Stevo Nikolic, also known as Kriger; is that correct?

11        A.   I do not remember the name, and the surname I do remember the

12     name.

13        Q.   The nickname was Kriger --

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm sorry, we now have a problem arising from the

15     fact that we do not have an English version of the document that the

16     accused is reading.  But the accused put a proposition to the witness

17     from this statement that he is now reading from, and the way the accused

18     read out the statement, the facts that are described in the statement are

19     dated as taking place in March 1992.  So he's put a proposition about

20     March 1992 to the witness, and I think that's important that it's on

21     record that the date according to the witness statement that the accused

22     is reading from is March.  He's now having the witness put these facts in

23     April.  There's something strange about the way this statement is being

24     used, because it seems to be describing events at another point in time.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no other reason in terms

Page 15729

 1     of time.  They arrived for training in March.  And in the beginning of

 2     April, they left Pajzos for Samac.  So the temporal continuity is there,

 3     and it is quite logical.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember that you arrived for training in Pajzos in March

 6     or in some other month?

 7        A.   In March.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is confirming that it

 9     was in March.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And in the statement that you gave to the OTP, do we have a date

12     there at all?  He shall take a look now to see when it was that you

13     arrived in Pajzos for training.  There is no reference to any time.  The

14     Prosecutor was not interested in finding that out when he took your

15     statement.  There is no time-framework at all about your arrival in

16     Pajzos.  They don't care.  It is all the same to them because the

17     Prosecutor can manipulate in this way; they can associate and correlate

18     different events which are not associated necessarily, whereas

19     Mr. Ilija Vuckovic's statement is quite precise, and you have confirmed

20     its content, have you not?

21        A.   Yes, I have.

22        Q.   Well, now we are in Samac.  In Samac while you were there when

23     you arrived there in the 17th Tactical Group, was there at all a unit or

24     any group of fighters who call themselves volunteers of the

25     Serbian Radical Party, who identified themselves as such?

Page 15730

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Here you have described in some detail the goings-on there, and I

 3     should like to find out from you another thing about this crime in

 4     Crkvina.  Yesterday you steered clear of this subject, avoided to give us

 5     an answer, because Lugar has been dead for some time, for some years now.

 6     But we have to deal with this subject because even though Lugar is dead

 7     we cannot gloss over this fact.  Actually, I didn't know myself about

 8     this crime until the time when Sulejman Tihic in December of last year

 9     actually confirmed that there had been exhumations and established that

10     the crime had taken place.

11             In your statement in paragraph 46 you say:

12             "I saw Lugar and -- I saw Lugar and Tralja fire against these men

13     killing five or seven of them ..."

14             So you just heard the shooting; you did not see it personally.

15             And then you go on to say:

16             "I'm not sure if Debeli Musa also participated in the execution,

17     but he was present ..."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And yesterday, without any intervention on my part, you yourself

20     said that Debeli Musa is not the same as Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Well, now this is a very important question, and you have helped

24     me much there for us to jointly unmask this OTP of the Tribunal at

25     The Hague in terms of the methods that they employ.

Page 15731

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness does not

 2     have this, you have it.  This is a summary of the statement of this

 3     witness of the 29th of March, 2007.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that things are quite clear,

 5     this Debeli who's in Bosanski Samac is not the same person as the person

 6     named Debeli belonging to the Serbian Radical Party?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 8     continues] ... in the same unit.  There were two men by the same name,

 9     Debeli:  Debeli, Srecko Radovanovic, the commander of the unit; and

10     Debeli Musa, who was very fat.  And that's why we also called him Debeli,

11     fat.  They were two different persons, but their nickname was the same.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as what happened in

13     Bosanski Samac is concerned, it is Debeli Musa who was the person there?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both were in Bosanski Samac.  In

15     Crkvina it was only Debeli Musa who was there.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Both were in Bosanski Samac --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- the one who was involved in

19     the crime, was it Debeli Musa or the other Debeli?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debeli Musa.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where was Srecko in that time?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that he was in

23     Bosanski Samac or perhaps in Pelagicevo.  I'm not sure.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would like

25     to draw your attention to the summary, together with the statement of the

Page 15732

 1     accused, provided on the 27th of -- 29th of March, 2007, on page 107 it

 2     is stated that the witness is going to talk about a group of volunteers,

 3     that's the penultimate paragraph, a group of volunteers of the SRS which

 4     was headed by Srecko Radovanovic, also known as Debeli.  That group of

 5     SRS volunteers was trained for two weeks in a camp in Pajzos near Ilok.

 6     He will be talking about the training, instructors.  And further on the

 7     witness will speak about the participation of volunteers in the events in

 8     Bosanski Samac, and he will describe the roles of Debeli --

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, the accused is making submissions.

10     He's not putting questions to the witness.  He can make submissions in

11     due course.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a procedural

13     remark.  I believe that you need to know this.  And we will also ask the

14     witness to provide his comment.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put the question to the

16     witness.  The three Judges understand perfectly well and quickly.

17             Please put the question.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The question is this:  Are you aware that the OTP manipulated

20     with the fact provided by you and wanted to present to the Trial Chamber

21     that the Debeli who was present during the killings committed by Lugar in

22     Crkvina is the same Debeli whose real name is Srecko Radovanovic?

23             And here I have a document which refers to Srecko Radovanovic,

24     Debeli, his name is mentioned.  And it is said in this document that you

25     will be talking about the role of Debeli, and finally it says that:

Page 15733

 1             "The witness is going to testify about the killing of five to

 2     seven civilians in Crkvina by Lugar, Tralja, and another Chetnik, a

 3     volunteer.  Debeli was there but the witness is not sure whether he

 4     participated in the killings."

 5             So there's no reference to Debeli Musa.  There is just a

 6     continuity of the discourse, first Srecko Radovanovic Debeli, and then

 7     the conclusion.  Are you area of the manipulation?

 8        A.   Yes, but I believe that I always drew a distinction between

 9     Debeli and Debeli Musa.  If I say Debeli, I mean Srecko Radovanovic.  If

10     I say Debeli Musa, then it's Debeli Musa and nobody else, and it's a

11     different person.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And you, Your Honours, I would like

13     to remind you that I have publicly thanked a Muslim witness who was a

14     victim to helped me to clarify that Srecko Radovanovic Debeli and the

15     Debeli who was present during the crime were not one in the same person.

16     Maybe you will remember this.  I can maybe refer you to your services who

17     can remind you of that part of the transcript.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, we have already

19     heard a witness as regards this person Debeli, that's right.  The Debeli

20     that is mentioned in the 2007 statement may -- might not be

21     Srecko Radovanovic, in the light of what the witness is telling us.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I know this.  I only wanted to

23     correct for the record.  It is not true that the Prosecution said it was

24     Debeli Srecko Radovanovic.  I quote directly from the witness statement.

25     It is from the second -- the second statement of 2006, paragraph 46,

Page 15734

 1     there is written:

 2             "I am not sure if ... a.k.a. Debeli and then Musa also

 3     participated in the execution of these people, but he was present ..."

 4             So it is already said in the statement the OTP took from the

 5     witness.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is important.  I thank

 7     you, Mr. Mussemeyer, to have told us --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- 2006 already.  There was

10     some hesitation --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12     continues] ... summary is not for me but for you, to convince you about

13     the relevance of every witness.  Look at the summary that refers to this

14     witness dated 29th March, 2007.  It is not in dispute that the OTP mixes

15     up the Debeli who participated in the killing with Srecko Radovanovic

16     Debeli.  Please look at the summary and all shall become clear.  This is

17     not the first time that I am encountering such manipulation and traps set

18     for me by the OTP.  There is a lot of that, and I am the only one who had

19     to deal with them.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, there might be a

21     misinterpretation, a mistake, confusion on the part of the Prosecution

22     without there being an intention of forging or manipulating the truth.

23     This is what you have concluded, but it might also be due to hesitations.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

25     continues] ... then you can say that the indictment against me is also a

Page 15735

 1     mistake.  The indictment is full of errors.  Will you remember the

 2     meeting in Mali Zvornik that was located by them two years later than it

 3     actually happened?  It's all full of mistakes.  These proceedings are

 4     full of tricks by the OTP.  Remember the witness 008?  We still don't

 5     know whether he was at all capable of firing a fire-arm.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.  You have

 7     approximately 30 minutes left.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember when Srecko Radovanovic left

10     Samac?

11        A.   I can't give you the exact date.  I can tell you just

12     approximately.  In the meantime, he had gotten married, I believe

13     in -- that was in August.  I'm not sure.

14        Q.   Is it possible that already towards the end of May or the

15     beginning of June he left Samac and then returned?

16        A.   Yes, that's a possibility.  At that time I was in hospital, so

17     I'm not sure.  For 15, 20 days I was in hospital, so that is possible.

18        Q.   Something very strange happened when you left Samac, and the OTP

19     helped me, and I'm very grateful to the Prosecutor, but they didn't do it

20     on purpose.  In any case, they helped me to clarify that matter.

21     Something strange happened.  Negotiations were conducted between the

22     local authorities of Samac and a group of men who had already been there

23     as members of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA.  They were asked to

24     return and to fight for money in the territory of Samac.  Do you know

25     anything about that?

Page 15736

 1        A.   I don't know about the money, but I know that there were talks to

 2     that event and that the late Lugar and some other man did return later on

 3     to the same area.

 4        Q.   Did Lugar come back on his own initiative?

 5        A.   As far as I know, yes, he did.

 6        Q.   And here we have a document issued by the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the OTP should

 9     provide you the document in the English because I don't carry anything in

10     English, just in Serbian.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And in that document there is an analysis of the events in the

13     territory of Samac.  And a reference is made in one place -- let me just

14     find that.  Let me find the document, please.  I'm so burdened that it

15     is -- I'm encumbered with all these documents.

16             Before I find this document, we shall take a look at what was

17     shown by the OTP yesterday.  That is this photostatic copy of a page from

18     the paper "Svetlost" which is published in Kragujevac.  It is P1041, if

19     you can call it up on the screen, please.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have it?  Can we see it?

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   We have this report now, but leave that, we shall come back to

23     that.  Anyway, this is a report of the command of the

24     2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade in Samac.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please let us see this report also

Page 15737

 1     in the Serbian language, the one that we had just a while ago on the left

 2     side.  Please return the document.  It is document 1730 according to the

 3     65 ter list.  Is this -- is this waiting also going to be detracted from

 4     my time -- deducted from my time?

 5             The document, Judges, that you see on the right-hand side in

 6     English is what I want in Serbian on the left-hand side.  Yes, here we

 7     have it.

 8        Q.   This is a document of the command of the 2nd Posavina Infantry

 9     Brigade from Samac of the 1st of December, 1992.  Are you able to see it?

10             Do you see this?  Do you see the heading of the document?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Fine.  Turn to page 4, please.  Here, a group of officers,

13     13 officers, the commander of the brigade Lieutenant-Colonel Mile

14     Deronja, the Chief of Staff Captain Milan Jocic, and a whole series of

15     other officers from this brigade are giving a report on developments in

16     Samac and the bad relations between the Army of Republika Srpska and the

17     local authorities in Samac.  At the end of page 4 on the -- they say 9th,

18     some developments which have been happening recently both within the 2nd

19     Posavina Infantry Brigade as well as within the civilian authorities in

20     the Samac municipality are nothing surprising for those who are well

21     acquainted with the situation but have only surfaced the dirty laundry

22     which has been collected in these areas for quite some time.  We shall

23     just point to some characteristic developments.

24             Some members of the local authorities are contributing to the

25     engagement of volunteers from Serbia, first under the control of Debeli,

Page 15738

 1     and later by -- the control of this is by Crni.  Allegedly

 2     50.000 German marks are allotted per member on condition that they

 3     conquer Orasje and that a rich war booty is found there.  They promised

 4     this to over 700 volunteers.  The first group included some 300, but in

 5     fact there were only 30 volunteers, some of whom who had never seen the

 6     theatre of war.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's comment:  This was translated and

 8     not read from the English translation.

 9             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Have you seen this?

11        A.   No, I haven't seen any part of this text.  Where should I look,

12     at the screen or where?

13        Q.   You could only have seen it on the screen and nowhere else.

14             What does this tell us now?  It tells that the local authorities

15     first planned Srecko Radovanovic, and when he refused then they talked to

16     Crni, that is, Dragan Djordjevic Crni; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And the army informed the superior command of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska that the local authorities were negotiating with some

20     who were volunteers earlier to come and to bring others, and they were

21     promised 700 volunteers and that the first group would have 300, whereas

22     only 30 showed up.  Someone had planned to attack Orasje.  Do you know

23     where Orasje is?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   There was a front line between Samac and Orasje?

Page 15739

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Orasje was held by the Croats; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Someone from the local authorities planned an attack on Orasje

 5     and was offering money for the engagement of these volunteers; is that

 6     clear from the text which I read out?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can this have any connection with the Serbian Radical Party, this

 9     private arrangement?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Was this the reason for Lugar to again return to Samac?

12        A.   Possibly.  I cannot give you a full response.

13        Q.   But are you familiar with the fact that after all of you left

14     Samac, after all of you had left Samac, he of his own accord returned to

15     Samac with a group of people?

16        A.   I know that.

17        Q.   We are again assisted by this OTP document, that is, "Svetlost,"

18     of the 13th of August, 1998.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see that on the ELMO?  I

20     indicated the document's number a while ago.  I'm lost in all these

21     papers.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you give the number of

23     the document of August 13, 1998?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was admitted yesterday.  The

25     number P1041.  You admitted it as an exhibit of the OTP yesterday,

Page 15740

 1     although actually the OTP withheld one paragraph from you.  Perhaps you

 2     will recall that I intervened on that account.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  If I may, it was the document with the

 5     65 ter number 7530 that has the document identification 0341-7948.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please look at page 2 of this document.  This Article was

 8     published after Lugar had been killed.  You heard that Lugar had been

 9     killed in Kragujevac?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   He had a personal conflict with a local member of the

12     State Security Service, and this latter guy shot him; did you hear about

13     that?

14        A.   Yes, I did.  I read about it.

15        Q.   After Lugar was killed, the Kragujevac paper "Svetlost" published

16     this article, and the last paragraph in the first column of this says --

17     can you look at it?  I am going to read it out and you can follow the

18     text on the screen.  The first -- the last, actually, paragraph of the

19     first column.  I can have it zoomed in for you.

20        A.   Please.

21        Q.    "The unit which was led by Slobodan Miljkovic Lugar was a part

22     of the volunteers sent to Croatia and Bosnia by the Serbian Radical Party

23     from Kragujevac."

24             This is what the journalist is saying.  And then he goes on:

25             "The then-president of the municipal board of the

Page 15741

 1     Serbian Radical Party Tomislav Nikolic denied stories that the Radicals

 2     had organised the transfer of Miljko's volunteers across the border of

 3     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  The group referred to had gone to

 4     theatres of war earlier as well in Baranja, Western Srem, Slavonia, and

 5     Bosnia.  This time they went of their own initiative because they

 6     considered to have -- to be -- have a great obligation towards those

 7     people there, the people there, even though I drew attention to them that

 8     now our authorities can easily have them arrested."

 9             Did I read this correctly?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So Tomislav Nikolic is confirming that the second time they went

12     there it was of their own initiative?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   That autumn you were arrested in Samac and taken to Banja Luka;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You, Lugar, and another number of people were arrested?

18        A.   The entire unit plus me.

19        Q.   And that entire unit, did it have anything to do with the

20     Serbian Radical Party at that time?

21        A.   No, none whatsoever.

22        Q.   You were arrested because there had been a clash between you and

23     some scouting detachment; am I right -- of some other Serbian unit?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You tried to disarm that other unit, they put up resistance, and

Page 15742

 1     on that occasion a member of that unit was killed; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then you were arrested but then you were set free because

 4     there was no evidence against you?

 5        A.   After the first interview with the investigating judge, we were

 6     set free.

 7        Q.   Very well.  And the OTP found in a book of mine which has been

 8     submitted as 1965 according to 65 ter list.  It was my show broadcast on

 9     Radio Kragujevac on the 28th November, 1993.  And in that show, it was a

10     phone-in show.  People phoned in and asked me questions.  One of the

11     questions was this:  Why I, as the president of the party, did not

12     intervene when Lugar and his group of men were arrested in Samac and

13     taken to Banja Luka?

14             And the question was put to me about Grey Wolves.  I'm showing

15     here that I don't have a clue what this was all about, that as a matter

16     of fact I mistook the Grey Wolves for Wolves from Vucak.  Do you hear of

17     wolves from Vucak?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That was a unit from the vicinity of Banja Luka?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And they didn't have anything to do with the Grey Wolves; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And in that show I didn't know what they would ask me, and I said

25     that I don't know -- I haven't a clue that they had ever been there, that

Page 15743

 1     there were armed members there, and that they were ever arrested --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I suppose, Your Honours, that

 3     you have this in this English language and it has been translated so I

 4     will no longer linger upon this.  And I explain here what my relationship

 5     with Arkan was.  And if I have some more time -- can you please tell me

 6     how much more time do I have at the moment?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that you have

 8     15 minutes left now.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will make the most of

10     the 15 minutes that I'm left to clarify the relationship between

11     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and Arkan's men, although I have

12     pointed to the document where I explained that very well in a radio show.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   We have mentioned here that in Prigrevica, in the training

15     centre, there were also members of other parties; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   However, there was no single Arkan's man there; right?

18        A.   Right.

19        Q.   Arkan had his own training centres, he had his own facilities,

20     and so on and so forth; right?

21        A.   Yes, you're right.

22        Q.   Did it happen that our volunteer at a certain stage joined

23     Arkan's unit?

24        A.   Yes, it did happen a few times.

25        Q.   What in your view was so attractive in Arkan's unit for those men

Page 15744

 1     to join them?  Not many did, five or six, but they did?

 2        A.   Believe me, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Did you hear that Arkan paid his men a lot of money?

 4        A.   Yes, I heard that, if that's what you meant.

 5        Q.   Do you know that they had the best equipment, the best weapons?

 6        A.   I know that.  I saw that.

 7        Q.   And do you know that Arkan also looted the areas of combat?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know that a lot of criminal affairs were tied to Arkan's

10     name?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   A certain number of men cared about the huge pay in Arkan's unit,

13     and that's why they joined them having left our volunteer groups; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   It happened that two men joined Arkan's unit as early as

17     September 1991.  I'm not too sure that there were two.  Yesterday, the

18     OTP showed you a video-clip from the funeral of a man who was a volunteer

19     of the Serbian Radical Party, and they mispronounced his name.  First

20     they said that he was Slobodan Jovic and then Slobodan Jojic, and so on.

21     Actually, it was Slobodan Jocic.  Did you ever hear of Slobodan Jocic?

22     On the 4th [as interpreted] of September he was killed in Laslovo.

23        A.   Yes, together with three other men.

24        Q.   At the time when he was killed, was he a member of our volunteer

25     unit or was he a member of Arkan's men?

Page 15745

 1        A.   No, he was a member of Arkan's unit.

 2        Q.   Do you know that before he was our volunteer?

 3        A.   I know that as well.

 4        Q.   And then he joined Arkan's unit and he was killed?

 5        A.   Yes, you're right.

 6        Q.   And the journalist says it's very clearly that he was a member of

 7     the Serbian Radical Party, but that he was Arkan's fighter; did we hear

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   It was similar with Mirko Lovadinovic who was killed on the same

11     day, I believe, on the 14th of September?

12        A.   Yes, the two of them were in the group of four, and they were

13     killed on the same day.

14        Q.   In Laslovo?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And Mirko Lovadinovic, who was a university professor, he worked

17     at the school for [indiscernible]; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, I believe so.

19        Q.   According to my information, he was with our volunteers until his

20     group returned to Serbia?

21        A.   Yes, he was with our volunteers, and I believe that he was

22     billeted in the village called Ada.

23        Q.   And when his group returned to Serbia, he decided to stay on and

24     continue fighting and that's why he joined Arkan's men?

25        A.   It is possible.  At that time, I was already in a different

Page 15746

 1     village.

 2        Q.   And he died in fighting?  The Croats shot him from a

 3     small-calibre rifle?

 4        A.   I believe so, but I'm -- can't remember the details.

 5        Q.   I saw photos from the post mortem.  Half of his head was missing

 6     as a result of that shot.  Do you know that small-calibre weapons are

 7     forbidden according to the rules of war?

 8        A.   I know that.

 9        Q.   Because a small-calibre bullet causes the so-called inhumane

10     wounds; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If you're hit in the head, then it destroys half of the head; if

13     it hits you in the body, then the bullet travels and damages many of the

14     internal organs; am I right?  This is a layman's interpretation?

15        A.   You're absolutely right.

16        Q.   So he was hit with the forbidden bullets.  Do you know that

17     anybody on the Serbian side used forbidden weapons and bullets in the

18     war?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you also hear that Croats used sub-calibre automatic weapons

21     of Singapore make?

22        A.   Yes, SA-80.

23        Q.   And the bullet of those Singapore weapons, do they cause the same

24     consequences?

25        A.   Yes, their calibre is 5.56, a small calibre.

Page 15747

 1        Q.   Do you also know that the Croats engaged Kurdish mercenaries in

 2     the fighting in Eastern Slavonia?

 3        A.   I know.

 4        Q.   Were there any fallen Kurds in the fighting that you participated

 5     in --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it seems that you are

 7     well versed in ballistics, but I'm a bit surprised by Mr. Seselj's logic,

 8     which you proved.  He says that small-calibre weapons are banned by

 9     international texts.  Calibre 5.56 is what the French army has at the

10     moment, I believe, and other armies also.  So could you expand on this a

11     little?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree with you.  The

13     French M-16 -- I apologise, the French M-2000 and the American M-16 and

14     the British SA-80, and the Russian Kalashnikov AK-74 [as interpreted];

15     they all use a 5.56 calibre which is forbidden according to the

16     Geneva Conventions.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll check that.

18             Please proceed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, the JNA never

20     had such weapons, never.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Am I right when I say this?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much time do I still have?  Can

25     you please tell me?

Page 15748

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Probably about ten minutes.

 2     Ten minutes, and then it will be over.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I shall like to find out one thing now.  You were wounded in

 5     Samac, and it is on that basis you're entitled to military disability

 6     pension still today?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How is this possible when you told us that you did not have a

 9     military service booklet when you were in Samac?

10        A.   Do not ask me that question.  Ask those who gave me that pension.

11        Q.   Well, I'm surprised how you went there in principle because all

12     the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, wherever they went, after

13     September 1991, after our agreement with the JNA that they would all be

14     included within the JNA, they all have their war service inscribed in

15     their service booklets.  Do you know that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When in 1995 you went to Majevica as a volunteer of the

18     Serbian Radical Party, was it inscribed?  Was it entered in your service

19     booklet that you served as such?

20        A.   No, I didn't even have a military -- I didn't take along a

21     military service booklet.

22        Q.   You didn't take it along?

23        A.   Well, I didn't go there in order to -- for -- to collect years of

24     service.

25        Q.   But we insisted that all volunteers should carry with them their

Page 15749

 1     military service booklets and that their service be entered.

 2        A.   Well, I didn't.

 3        Q.   Well, it remains unknown for me how you managed to be entitled to

 4     this disability pension if you did not have a military service booklet at

 5     that time?

 6        A.   I would be very glad if you managed to resolve this unknown of

 7     yours because I don't know it myself.

 8        Q.   When my associates addressed you, it was Zoran Krasic, do you

 9     remember the name of my associate?

10        A.   Yes, it was him.

11        Q.   Did you know at that time that the Defence was entitled to

12     getting in touch with Prosecution witnesses prior to their appearance in

13     court if the OTP agrees to that?

14        A.   Well, believe me, I do not have much experience in taking the

15     stand before a Tribunal of this kind, so that I do not know.

16        Q.   In your first statement you told us that you had never talked

17     with the OTP of The Hague.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   For some reason you wanted to hide from us your contacts with the

20     OTP for some conspiratorial reasons?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What are the reasons?  What was the trial that you were being

23     proofed for, if it is not a secret?

24        A.   I was convinced all the time that it would be the

25     Stanisic and Simatovic trial.

Page 15750

 1        Q.   Are you still being prepared for that trial?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   This is why I'm asking you this because your statement is wholly

 4     true.  In its entirety it is true.  The one which you gave here orally in

 5     courtroom, not the written one which was written for you by the OTP, and

 6     you did not read it carefully.  Except this identification, namely, in

 7     what capacity you went to Samac from Pajzos.  Everything else is true.

 8     Because, according to every parameter, you went there as members of the

 9     JNA.

10        A.   Well, if you say so.  I know what I was told.

11        Q.   But you have no written trace that it was really the way it was

12     told you?

13        A.   No, except that I was wounded there.  I do not have a single

14     written document with which to prove I was in Bosanski Samac at all.

15        Q.   But you were issued with some weapons there, you were billeted to

16     some quarters there, you were given food?

17        A.   The -- the weapons were loaded on two helicopters at Lezimir.  We

18     flew from Lezimir.

19        Q.   But you were a member of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA?

20        A.   There we joined the 17th Tactical Group.

21        Q.   But you belonged to the JNA?

22        A.   We were under their command.

23        Q.   I have the statement of Srecko Radovanovic and with that I shall

24     finish my cross-examination.  You have it before you.  It is one of the

25     three documents which I gave you yesterday.

Page 15751

 1             Srecko Radovanovic confirms everything which you have alleged,

 2     that you were in Eastern Slavonia, that you worked for the police, that

 3     you were trained -- went for training to Pajzos.  On page 3 of his

 4     statement - please turn to page 3 - in the first paragraph he says:

 5             "He consulted me also whether to go for that training or not.

 6     When I asked him," he's referring to me, "he said that he had nothing

 7     against our having decided, but whether we would go or not did not depend

 8     on him," that is me.

 9             Is that what Srecko said?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When a volunteer from Serbia, a volunteer of the

12     Serbian Radical Party, happens to find himself in the zone of combat, can

13     we prevent in any way him from being transferred from moving from one

14     unit to another unit?

15        A.   Not by any legal means, as far as I know; you were not able to

16     prevent anyone from your volunteer unit to join a police of Krajina unit

17     or a JNA unit.

18        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   If we were not satisfied with the conduct of a volunteer, what

22     sanctions did we have at our disposal?  For instance, we sent a group of

23     volunteers to a village in Slavonia and one of the volunteers is not

24     behaving in a disciplined fashion, he drinks, he has been found looting

25     or brawling or similar.  What can we do against him?

Page 15752

 1        A.   In such cases, he would be sent back home.  And in case of a

 2     serious breach of conduct, he would be handed over to the police.

 3        Q.   And if he was sent home, we would have him on our records as

 4     someone who was given to breach of discipline and conduct and was never

 5     again sent there?

 6        A.   Yes, as far as I know.

 7        Q.   And the only sanction which we could pronounce on him was to

 8     actually -- to actually have him no longer be a member of our party?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And if a serious breach in question, he would be given over to

11     the military or civilian police?

12        A.   Yes, to the civilian or military police.

13        Q.   When this happened in Crkvina, why was this not reported to the

14     civilian police or the military police?

15        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that question.

16        Q.   Because you had left the place, but someone might be able to give

17     us an answer.  All right.

18             In the second paragraph on page 3, Srecko Radovanovic says:

19             "I remember the training was conducted at Ilok on an offshoot of

20     the Fruska Gora mountain."

21             That is where Pajzos is; right?

22        A.   Yes, the vineyard of Pajzos.

23        Q.   "We practically were JNA volunteers ."

24             Do you see that Srecko says this here?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15753

 1        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   What do you say to that?

 5        A.   I don't say anything.  I have no comment.  I have no comment.  I

 6     really do not know.

 7        Q.   And he also says:

 8             "With us were some guys hailing from the vicinity of

 9     Bosanski Samac.  They were also training with us."

10             Do you know that there was a group from Bosanski Samac being

11     trained there?

12        A.   Yes, there was.  I mentioned that there was a group of

13     10 or 15 locals who underwent training with us at Pajzos.

14        Q.   And Stevan Todorovic was with them; right?

15        A.   Yes, he came to see them occasionally.

16        Q.   Who brought them there for training, the JNA, the police, or a

17     third party?

18        A.   I don't know that.

19        Q.   In paragraph 3 Srecko says:

20             "Around the 10th of April on JNA helicopters you were transferred

21     to the village of Batkusa near Bosanski Samac."

22             Is that right?

23        A.   Yes, that is what I said in my statement.

24        Q.   He also mentions the name of Stevan called Kriger, an artillery

25     lieutenant-colonel?

Page 15754

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   He said he immediately became a member of the staff of the

 3     17th Tactical Group; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, he was often there.  I don't know what his exact function

 5     was.

 6        Q.   And he says:

 7             "Everything which was done was on the basis of the commands and

 8     orders coming from that staff until the 19th of May, 1992, when the JNA

 9     withdrew from the territory of Republika Srpska.  We all became members

10     of the Army of Republika Srpska on a voluntary basis as part of the new

11     brigade.  I was appointed the Chief of Staff of the Bosnian brigade in

12     May."

13             Do you know that Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli, was the

14     Chief of Staff of the Bosnian Brigade?

15        A.   Yes, when I returned from hospital, he was already appointed to

16     that post.

17        Q.   He was a very capable commander?

18        A.   Yes, I agree.

19        Q.   Do you know that earlier he worked as a policeman and was retired

20     on account of disability?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   That was much before the beginning of the war?

23        A.   I don't know exactly how long he worked, but I knew that he

24     worked as a policeman.

25        Q.   And he says here that he didn't have any contacts with the

Page 15755

 1     Serbian Radical Party at the time when he was in Bosanski Samac.  Do you

 2     know that I proclaim Srecko Radovanovic Debeli as Chetnik Vojvoda for his

 3     war valour?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And there's reference to Dragan Djordjevic, also known as Crni.

 6     Did you ever hear that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   On page 4 of his statement in paragraph 3, Srecko Radovanovic

 9     says about Dragan Djordjevic, also know as Crni:

10             "He was never a member of the Serbian Radical Party.  He was

11     never a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party, and I know him only from

12     Bosanski Samac.  He was transferred with us to Batkusa on the same

13     helicopter, and he was not a member of my unit."

14             Do you agree with this statement?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   So Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, was never a member of

17     Srecko Radovanovic, Debeli's, unit?

18        A.   No.  Him and late Vuk, if I'm not mistaken, they were attached to

19     the unit, and they had other tasks.

20        Q.   And here is what he says about Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar.  That's

21     the fourth paragraph again in the same statement by Srecko Radovanovic:

22             "... as far as Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar, is

23     concerned, and he received his nickname in Slavonia.  He hails from

24     Kragujevac just as I do.  He came independently to Slavonia in 1991, not

25     as a volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party."

Page 15756

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last question because your time

 2     is up and we need to stop now, so please ask your last question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 4     continues] ... my last question, sir.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   "... and he asked to join us as a volunteer.  But as far as I

 7     know, he -- at the time, he was not a member of the Serbian Radical

 8     Party.  He became a member in mid-1993, and after a year he was deleted

 9     from party membership."

10             Do you know why that happened in 1993 or 1994, why was he

11     excluded from the membership of the Serbian Radical Party?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   If I tell you that he slapped the president of the

14     Municipal Board of Kragujevac on one occasion, his name was Jovan Savic,

15     would that be convincing?  Would that conjure up the image of Lugar?

16        A.   I suppose so.

17        Q.   And what about Srecko Radovanovic, did he also have problems with

18     Lugar?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This brings my cross-examination to

21     an end.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, your testimony is

23     finished.  The Trial Chamber had an hour and a half, the Prosecutor an

24     hour and a half, and Mr. Seselj an hour and a half.

25             Mr. Mussemeyer, there is no re-direct when the witnesses are

Page 15757

 1     witnesses of the Chamber.

 2             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Okay.  Mr. President, I only wanted to -- I had

 3     the time to look also in the first statement the witness gave us in 2004,

 4     and there is the same sentence related to Debeli who was in Crkvina.

 5     It's also said "I'm not sure if 'Debeli Musa' also participated in the

 6     execution," just for your information and that what the witness already

 7     told the OTP at that time was the truth and correct.  Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's no dispute

 9     that this is contained in the statement; however, in the summary that the

10     OTP compiled based on the statement, they tried to deceive you and they

11     tried to tell you that Debeli Musa is actually Srecko Radovanovic,

12     Debeli.  And that was the point that I tried to make.  There is no doubt

13     that everything is clear in the statement itself.  However, in the

14     summary, this has been misstated or rather badly put.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please wait.  We have to drop

16     the blinds.  We shall have the break now.  During the break, I shall ask

17     the Registrar to bring the second witness into the courtroom.  This

18     witness has been granted protective measures.

19             Sir, I thank you for having come, and I wish you a safe journey

20     home.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, the following witness does

22     not have any protective measures, does he?

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 15758

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15759











11 Pages 15759-15760 redacted. Private session.















Page 15761

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, we have carefully studied your

 4     statements that you have earlier provided to the Prosecution, and so we

 5     are well aware of what you have testified earlier also in the trials in

 6     which you have given testimony previously.  So I do not need to go

 7     through all of this again.  It's already on the record.

 8             But I would like you to, for the purposes of this trial, clarify

 9     a few details in relation to the events in 1992 when you were arrested in

10     Brcko.  Perhaps I should ask you to give a brief account of the days

11     preceding your arrest and of the arrest itself.  Can you do that just

12     briefly?

13        A.   I can.  The war started around the 1st of May when the bridges on

14     the Sava were destroyed.  Up to then, I was working for the electrical

15     distribution, and then on the 30th of April both bridges on the Sava were

16     blown up.  I went to my company, where I was given work obligation.  And

17     then we were informed by our director to go back home and wait there to

18     be called back because there would be a work obligation imposed upon all

19     of us to come and work in our companies.  That's what I did.  I remained

20     in my apartment until the 8th or the 9th of May; I can't remember

21     exactly.  And then people from the electrical distribution of Brcko came

22     to fetch me and took me to the company.  I remained there until the

23     27th of May, and then I was arrested by members of the Serbian police and

24     taken to the public security station in Brcko.

25             There I was kept for 40 minutes approximately, and from there I

Page 15762

 1     was transported to Luka.  And I remained there until 7 June 1992.  And

 2     then I was taken from Luka to my apartment and then from my apartment to

 3     Belgrade in Serbia.  That would be the shortest version of the event.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  Sir, in the process of your

 5     arrest itself, did you notice anybody else than the police?  I'm asking

 6     about if there were any other armed or uniformed persons around other

 7     than the police when you were arrested?

 8        A.   From the 30th of April when everything started, I did move about

 9     the town up to the 7th of May or thereabouts.  And during that time, I

10     saw different uniforms, different members of the Serbian forces that

11     existed in Brcko at the time.  I saw them at check-points there which

12     were manned by the police and the military.  And those men belonged to

13     different formations of the Serbian volunteers who manned them together

14     with members of the JNA.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  This was exactly what I was

16     asking about because we need to talk a bit about your observations, if

17     you remember, about the various Serb forces that were active in Brcko in

18     the days leading up to your arrest.

19             You have mentioned the police who actually physically arrested

20     you.  You also said that in the city of Brcko you had observed soldiers

21     of the JNA, I assume; you also said that you had seen various volunteer

22     groups in the city and at the check-points.  Now, let's focus on the

23     volunteers that you observed.  Are you able to recollect where about in

24     the city you saw volunteers, and are you able to remember specific

25     insignia that these volunteers may have worn on their uniforms, and are

Page 15763

 1     you able to describe their uniforms?

 2        A.   All the volunteers at the time wore camouflage uniforms, and I

 3     have already repeated this a lot of times, that I assumed that they were

 4     provided with those uniforms by the JNA.  However, there were other

 5     different check-points around the town where you could see mixed members

 6     of the Serbian forces together with the military police of the JNA.  For

 7     example, by the battery factory Tesla in Brcko, the check-point was

 8     manned by the Serbian volunteers and the Serbian forces from Serbia, the

 9     so-called Red Berets.  By the Galeb, the check-point was manned by the

10     Serbian Radical Party or Chetniks as they called themselves.

11             By the electric power authority building, Major Mauzer, the

12     commander of the Serbian Guards, came on a couple of occasions, as well

13     as members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement from Bijeljina and other

14     different parts of the former Yugoslavia.

15             Why did they come to the electric power authority building?

16     Either they needed fuel, or they took people who worked there -- or they

17     took people's vehicles that were parked in the parking-lot.  On one

18     occasion, lieutenant-colonel who was the garrison commander

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic and his escorts came there.  I don't

20     know why he came.  In any case, everywhere, all over the town and later

21     on in Luka I saw different members of different paramilitary formations,

22     Chetniks, Arkan's Tigers, members of the police force that existed in

23     Brcko at the time as also members of the military police.  Arkan's Tigers

24     had the insignia of a tiger on the sleeves of their uniforms, and they

25     also had Serbian three-coloured flags on the chest.  And members of the

Page 15764

 1     Chetnik Movement, some of them had cockades on their hats or on their

 2     uniforms, elsewhere on their uniform.

 3             On one occasion, Mr. Mirko Blagojevic came with his escorts to

 4     Luka and ill-treated a certain number of prisoners who were there at the

 5     time.  On one occasion, a man called Enver who said that he was a Chetnik

 6     carved a cross on the head of a friend of mine who was lying next to me.

 7     He carved a cross with a knife on his forehead.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  We'll come to that.  But

 9     let me just revert to your observations at the check-points.  Because you

10     say that the check-point was manned by Serbian Radical Party or Chetniks

11     as they called themselves, how were you able to determine that they were

12     members of the Serbian Radical Party?

13        A.   For example, in front of Galeb where their check-point was or

14     perhaps their command; I don't know what they called it at the time.  It

15     was Hotel Galeb at the time, and now it is Ilina hotel.  There was a

16     flag -- a black flag hoisted with a human skull in the middle, the skull

17     was white.  And there was the inscription:  "Members of the Serbian

18     Chetnik Movement, the Majevica Semberija SAO Krajina."

19             That's how I concluded that they belonged to the Serbian Chetnik

20     Movement or the Serbian Radical Party.

21             On one occasion, on the day when I was liberated, Mr. Rade Bozic,

22     who liberated me, took me to the customs area before we set off for

23     Bijeljina, Ugljevik, and then onwards to Belgrade.  And then he himself

24     told me -- and I also saw vehicles parked there and they belonged to the

25     Ministry of the Interior of Serbian special units.  And I also saw

Page 15765

 1     vehicles that belonged to the Serbian Radical Party from Serbia or

 2     Chetniks.  And he confirmed that himself.  He said it himself that all

 3     Serbs from Serbia, all volunteers together with Arkan's men and the

 4     Red Berets and members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement were billeted

 5     there.  That's where they spent their nights.  Members of the Serbian

 6     movement, units from Serbia, and that's all I can remember at this

 7     moment.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Now, you are aware of

 9     the fact that the accused in this trial was the leader of the

10     Serb Radical Party.  So for that reason it becomes crucial to distinguish

11     clearly between those who actually were volunteers of the SRS and others.

12     And I understand that there was a large mixed group of volunteers who

13     came from various origins.  Some of them were probably members of the

14     SRS, but others came from elsewhere.  And they perhaps all called

15     themselves Chetniks.  You have also mentioned Arkan's men, which is a

16     third group.

17             So, again, I revert to my original question:  How were you able

18     to determine that the volunteers at the check-points or at least some of

19     them were members of the SRS party?  Can you clarify.

20        A.   On one occasion, as we were leaving the electric power authority

21     Brcko to repair some power cuts across the river, we were stopped at a

22     check-point in front of the Galeb, or seagull, Hotel.  There were two men

23     at the check-point with a radio set.  Judging by the way they were

24     dressed and judging by the way they looked and the insignia they wore,

25     they were members of the Chetnik Movement.  When they stopped us, a

Page 15766

 1     vehicle came from the garrison carrying the reserve captain Mitic, one of

 2     the inspectors or members of the police station Brcko before the war,

 3     Krsto Mihajlovic.  They came by and stopped at the same check-point where

 4     we were stopped by the aforementioned gentleman.  Mitic got out of the

 5     car and asked them, Gentlemen, what's happening?  And then they said, We

 6     stopped them because something is happening in town.

 7             And we may have been standing there for some ten minutes or so.

 8     And I am convinced that they were members of the Chetnik Movement, and

 9     now I believe that they were.  And later on --

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, let me just get back.  The fact that

11     they were members of the Chetnik Movement is not necessarily the same as

12     being a member of the SRS.  You have to distinguish between members of

13     the SRS and what I perceive as a larger group of volunteers who

14     altogether called themselves members of the Chetnik Movement.  But not

15     all members of the Chetnik Movement were members of the SRS.

16             So, for the third time, I want you to think about anything that

17     you can explain to us about how you were able to determine that some of

18     the people you saw at the check-points were members of the SRS.  They may

19     have told you or you may have known because you knew some of them or

20     otherwise.  So that's what I'm asking you to clarify.

21        A.   I believe that many members of the Serbian Radical Party were not

22     all Chetniks at that time.  I'm not saying to Your Honours that all

23     members of the Radical Party were members of the Chetnik Movement.  I

24     distance myself from that.  I cannot say on the basis of somebody's

25     uniform, "This is a member of the Socialist Party of Serbia or this other

Page 15767

 1     one is a member of the Serbian Chetniks because he's a member of the

 2     Serbian Radical Party."  To me they looked like Chetniks.  And I believe

 3     and I'm convinced that they were Chetniks.  Now, whether they were also

 4     members of the Serbian Radical Party, that I do not know nor can I tell

 5     you anything about that.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  So now we have this established, and no

 7     one told you that they were members of the SRS, and you did not know any

 8     of them to be members of the SRS; is that what you're telling us?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Let's then move to the police station

11     after your arrest.  You said that you were brought to this SJB building

12     and you were held there for a short time and then you were moved on to

13     the Luka camp.  During your short stay at the SJB building, did you see

14     other uniformed personnel than police?  In other words, were there army

15     officers or army people around, and were there also volunteers or

16     Chetniks, as you called them, at the police station?

17        A.   There were members of the regular police forces dressed in police

18     uniforms, there were also other men dressed in camouflage uniforms, and

19     there were members of the special units from the garrison.  And I could

20     see that because they were all sitting there at the reception near this

21     large entrance to the SUP.  I did not see members of the Chetniks or

22     members of the Serbian Radical Party.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  And then let's move on to the Luka

24     camp.  And I repeat my question there.  Did you see in or around the Luka

25     camp -- or let me ask you:  Who were guarding the Luka camp; do you

Page 15768

 1     remember?

 2        A.   Outside the offices, outside the hangar itself were men dressed

 3     in the old reserve uniforms of the JNA.  Most of them were probably

 4     actually reservists mobilised as such.  The man who was there when I

 5     arrived at Luka was Branko Pudic who used to be a policeman in Brcko

 6     before the war.  He is still a policeman.  Later when they pushed me to

 7     that office, Mr. Nedic was sitting there.  He's a mate of mine, a friend

 8     of mine, from the sports field.  He was a JNA captain first class.  The

 9     second man sitting at the desk was also dressed in a reserve JNA uniform.

10     He was a lieutenant by rank.  There were another two men; one was wearing

11     a camouflage uniform, and the other one also a reserve JNA uniform.  He

12     had a big beard, and he had a sort of a fire-fighting hose, nozzle, with

13     him.  He also wore a cockade.

14             And after they pushed me into this office I said, "Good morning."

15     And this bearded man told me, "Fuck your mother.  Do you know how the

16     Serbs greet one another ?"  And I said, "Okay.  I know."  And I said,

17     "God help you, brother Serbs."  And he said, "That is okay.  That was how

18     it should be said."

19             They didn't beat me much on that occasion.  They started asking

20     me what I (redacted)

21     (redacted)- Pudic

22     after that took me to the first hangar.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  You just inadvertently came to reveal

24     your name, so I ask that this be redacted.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 15769

 1             Registrar, please, redaction.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, Mr. Witness, what you are telling me is that

 3     at the Luka camp you saw that the guards were members of the JNA.  You

 4     also saw that there was at least some police people present inside the

 5     camp.  And you also observed the presence of some Chetniks or members of

 6     the Chetnik Movement, judging by their appearance with cockades and big

 7     beards and so on.  Is that a fair resume of your conclusion -- of your

 8     testimony, sorry?

 9        A.   Yes, and as I told you when you asked me before, in short, on one

10     occasion, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic came there with his entourage.  We all

11     knew who he was.  And also when a gentleman from the Chetnik Movement who

12     introduced himself as such carved a cross on one of the prisoners; I

13     don't know whether he belonged to the Radical Party, but he did belong to

14     the Chetnik Movement.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  Did you see any other instances of

16     mistreatment of the detainees carried out by the volunteers or the

17     Chetniks, as you call them?

18        A.   That time when Duke Mirko Blagojevic came with his escorts and

19     with another four or five men in his entourage, they threw to us biscuits

20     and cigarettes to us in Luka, and Mirko Blagojevic delivered a sort of a

21     political speech to us.  He said, Well, brothers, Muslims, now war has

22     befallen us.  And so on and so forth.  It was a fair speech, so to say.

23     But after about an hour, these same people who threw cigarettes to us and

24     biscuits to us, they burst into the hangar with parts of shovels, wooden

25     sticks, and started beating all the prisoners indiscriminately.  Some

Page 15770

 1     they kicked, some they hit with these wooden sticks, the handles of

 2     spades and shovels.  After a certain time, this same group - I wasn't

 3     drinking coffee but other people were - they came into the hangar and

 4     brought us coffee to have coffee together with them.  And some of the

 5     prisoners did have coffee with them, having previously been beaten by

 6     them.

 7             On other occasions, when I saw members of the Chetnik Movement,

 8     when this guy came into the hangar and seised by the neck

 9     Brajlevic [phoen], took a knife out of his boot and carved a cross on his

10     forehead.  This is what I saw the Chetniks do while I was at Luka.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  I have no more questions for you

12     at this time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will give the floor to my

14     fellow Judge in a second, but I have a follow-up question first.  It will

15     be very short.  In Brcko according to you when the Serbian forces were

16     there, the volunteers, and so on, the paramilitaries, could you tell us

17     whether according to you someone was in charge, someone was commanding

18     all this?

19        A.   I believe that someone was.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was it?

21        A.   I think that the person in charge who wielded the most control

22     was Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic.  He was the commander in the

23     garrison.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Pavle Milinkovic - I'm sorry for my

Page 15771

 1     pronunciation - could you tell us which army this person belonged to?

 2        A.   At that time, the Yugoslav People's Army.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's all I wanted

 4     to know.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             Witness, let's return to the identification of those individuals

 8     who belonged to these groups you mentioned because I'm still a bit

 9     confused.  You said -- you talked about Chetniks.  You mentioned

10     individuals who belonged to the Serbian Radical Party.  You mentioned

11     volunteers and other groups belonging to Arkan and so on.

12             So first and foremost I would like to know what exactly you mean

13     when you say "Chetnik."  Could you tell us what is the main feature of

14     these Chetniks.  When you identify someone as "Chetnik," what is the main

15     feature of this person?

16        A.   I know from the history of the Yugoslav peoples who the Chetniks

17     were, and what I learned in my history subject and the picture that I got

18     from the history subject that was taught in the former Yugoslavia in the

19     same way as these Chetniks operated during the Second World War, that is

20     actually the image of them that I had when I saw them operating at the

21     different points.  Normally, a member of the JNA, of police forces, of

22     regular or any other police forces, would not have worn a beard or a

23     knife tucked into his belt.  And all these men, they had these huge

24     knives.  I just don't know.  Actually, the picture that I got about them

25     when I was studying history was actually confirmed during this time.

Page 15772

 1     Just looking at them, watching their symbols in town, actually conjured

 2     up this image in my mind, and I had this association that they were

 3     members of that Chetnik Movement.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So they had the same ideas, they

 5     shared the same ideas, but which ideas were they -- was it?

 6        A.   I think I saw many times in red Mr. Seselj's statements about how

 7     the members of the Chetnik Movement were defending the Serbian people

 8     from the Croatia HDZ, the paramilitary forces in Croatia, or what have

 9     you, the war events in Bosnia, that they were there as volunteers and

10     that they were there to defend the threatened Serbian people together

11     with the other armed forces in Bosnia.  That's it.  I presume that was

12     the common idea.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So they had a defensive goal, to

14     defend themselves against an enemy which threatened the Serbs; is that

15     it?

16        A.   That's the way I understood it.  I don't know what actually

17     was -- who threatened whom.  That would require some discussion.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Now, I would like to

19     know whether you ever heard that these Chetniks who were in Brcko during

20     the conflict in Brcko had a leader.  I'm not talking about a military

21     commander.  I'm talking about a leader.  Did they have a leader?

22        A.   At that time in Brcko, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic was a member of

23     the Chetnik Movement from Bijeljina, and everybody knew that.  He spoke

24     on Radio Brcko, Serbian Brcko as they called it at the time.  I mean,

25     among the Serbs in the electrical company in Brcko, they said that they

Page 15773

 1     had special locations in the city of Brcko where they held meetings, the

 2     cafe Bolero being one of those places.  And as I already have said who

 3     they had staffed their headquarters was at the Galeb hotel in Brcko.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, above Blagojevic, was there

 5     another leader at national level?

 6        A.   Well, at that time, if we look at how the Serbian Radical Party

 7     was founded in Bosnia and Herzegovina with the assistance of the

 8     Serbian Radical Party in Serbia whose president was Mr. Seselj, as

 9     everybody knew, I suppose so.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Unless I'm mistaken, I think

11     that when you answered Judge Harhoff or the Presiding Judge, you

12     mentioned about -- you mentioned Vojvoda Blagojevic.  You did say that;

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Do you know who appointed

16     Blagojevic, Vojvoda?

17        A.   I do not know, but I can assume, because the only Vojvoda

18     publicly proclaimed that before Blagojevic was Mr. Seselj.  I believe

19     that Mr. Seselj was conferred this title by the priest Pop Djujic, and

20     whether he had the authority to confer such titles upon people in Bosnia

21     and Herzegovina, this is something I don't know.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was Mirko Blagojevic at the Luka

23     detention centre?

24        A.   Yes.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us what role he

Page 15774

 1     played in the treatment of the prisoners in this camp?

 2        A.   As I said before, when he arrived on that day with his escorts,

 3     he delivered a political speech to us.  Later, these very same escorts

 4     enter the hangar and started --

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Could you give us

 6     some details on this political speech and say what the content of this

 7     speech was?

 8        A.   That time in Luka he was the first one to address all the

 9     prisoners with the words "Muslim brethren," brothers Muslims.  That is

10     how he started his speech.  Before that, whoever would enter the hangar

11     would say, You "balijas," which is a derogatory for "Muslims."  You

12     Turks - I have no connection with the Turks by the way at all - and this

13     is how they called us.  Any way, his approach was like this:  We are

14     brothers.  We should agree on things.  We should consult each other.

15             He called us brothers, Muslims, and I found his speech a bit

16     strange frankly.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And what was his speech about?

18        A.   About how this conflict had come about, that we should be killing

19     each other, that this was something that we did not need at all.  It was

20     nothing in particular.  He never threatened anybody in his speeches,

21     which is interesting.  However, after finishing this conversation with

22     others, as I said, the same people who were in his entourage delivered a

23     different kind of speech to the prisoners, if I can put it that way.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In his presence?

25        A.   No.  No, no, he was not in the hangar then.

Page 15775

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And when the detainees were

 2     abused - because this is what you say in your statement - was Blagojevic

 3     present?

 4        A.   He was not in the hangar.  Now, whether he was there present at

 5     the offices, that I don't know, but not in the hangar.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But you don't know whether he

 7     was told about this abuse?

 8        A.   I believe that he was, but I cannot tell you.  I don't know

 9     whether they informed him about it.  I'm not quite sure.  Perhaps he

10     participated elsewhere.  I don't know.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Among the victims, could you

12     tell us whether they were all people who had been arrested in arms or

13     whether they were also civilians?

14        A.   All those people whom I found at Luka and I myself had no weapons

15     at all nor did any other people that I know.  They were all in civilian

16     clothes.  Some were even in their pyjamas.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In one of your statements, you

18     say that Blagojevic was accompanied by a man called Durkovic, a Chetnik.

19     Did he take part in this abuse, the abuse of detainees?

20        A.   Major Djurk anovic is how he introduced himself.  He was not in

21     the entourage of Mirko Blagojevic.  He once came on his own, which is

22     interesting for one member of his force, this Djurkanovic, to enter so

23     freely among 200 people.  He wore a camouflage uniform, and he had a

24     major's insignia and ranks on his shoulders, on his epaulettes.  He told

25     us that he was a major by rank, Major Djurkanovic.  He also delivered

Page 15776

 1     political speeches to us to the effect that we did not need all this and

 2     how he had helped other people who had been detained at Luka before us.

 3             And, among other things, this Djurkanovic found some people who

 4     hailed from Brezevo Polje, a Muslim, and he talked directly to him when

 5     he was surrounded by these other Muslims.  He said, You confirm that

 6     there has been no killing here or maltreatment.

 7             And the man did confirm it; but how true that was, I don't know.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but did

 9     Mirko Blagojevic ever call himself a Seselj's man or Seseljevci?

10        A.   No, never.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So he was calling himself what

12     he was known as, being a member of the Serbian Radical Party?

13        A.   We knew that he was the president of the Serbian Radical Party,

14     and he introduced himself as Vojvoda or Duke Mirko Blagojevic, not as

15     president.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did he -- did he -- when he came

17     to the Luka centre, was he in arms or was he in civilian clothes or was

18     he in uniform with weapons or was he in civilian clothes?

19        A.   All his escorts wore camouflage uniforms, and they were armed.

20     He was the only one who did not have an automatic rifle, but a pistol at

21     his belt.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One last aspect.  The mass

23     graves, the Brcko mass graves.  At one point in time you mentioned these

24     mass graves.  I would like to know whether you knew who were in these

25     mass graves.  Do you have the identity or at least the ethnicity of the

Page 15777

 1     victims in those mass graves?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I heard and read subsequently that many of the men

 3     had been in Luka with me together with me in May 1992 and in July 1992.

 4     We were all together in Luka at the time, all those whose bodies were

 5     subsequently exhumed, and we learned one name after another.

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And could you tell us what

 7     ethnicity these people were?

 8        A.   Mostly Muslim and an occasional Bosniak Croat.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No Serbs?

10        A.   I don't know of any, and I don't believe that there were any.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You say that Arkan's men were

12     also present in the conflict in Brcko.  Do you know anything about the

13     relationship between the Chetniks headed by Blagojevic, who was the local

14     president of the Serbian Radical Party, and Arkan's men?

15        A.   I'll tell you, but it was only later when I was liberated from

16     Luka and taken to Belgrade.  I heard from that same man Rade Bozic, who

17     took me out of Luka, that they had problems with Chetniks in Brcko.  And

18     those problems resulted even in armed conflicts among them.  I don't know

19     why.  Was it as a result of their looting, or was it just a question of

20     power, who would be more powerful in Brcko at the time.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But who did the looting?

22        A.   That same Rade Bozic told me that, the one who took me from Luka

23     on the 7th of July.  I had two opportunities to meet him later on in

24     Belgrade, and he himself told me that.  On one occasion I also met

25     Captain Dragan, who also told me that they had a lot of problems with

Page 15778

 1     members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Brcko.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Which group did Rade Bozic

 3     belong to?  Maybe I didn't understand something.

 4        A.   He was a member of the Red Berets at the time.  That was a

 5     special unit called the Red Beret, and he wore a military police uniform

 6     of the JNA.  And the only distinctive feature was his Red Beret.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no more

 8     questions.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have 30 minutes.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I start, I would

12     like to have corrected a little mistake in -- on the record.  Page 70,

13     line 8, is mentioned instead of Luka is mentioned Lugar, and that can

14     lead to misunderstanding.  I think this has to be corrected.

15             Another thing --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're absolutely right,

17     absolutely right.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Before I start, I would like to have kind of

19     guidance from the Chamber because I'm also surprised by the decision to

20     put protective measures on this witness.  I intended to use a letter

21     which was sent to the witness in 2008 and which was part of the Court

22     binder.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's the way it is any way.

24     He has protective measures.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I don't request this or I don't put it into

Page 15779

 1     doubt, but I want to know if I can use this letter, given the fact that

 2     he has protective measures.  If not, I will not use it.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, let's take a

 4     look at the letter.  Could we have the letter.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It is in the Court binder.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to see the letter as

 7     well.  I demand to see it.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which number?

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It has the document identification 0644 and then

10     5901.  It should not be broadcasted as long as I don't know if I can use

11     it.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the OTP has also

13     submitted the document to me but without a signature, without a day.

14     There's nothing there.  What am I supposed to do with a document like

15     that?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I need to see

17     this document first.  Could you give us the number again.  My

18     fellow Judge is showing me 6074, but you're saying it's 0644.  That's

19     different.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  No microphone is on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We now see it on the screen under

24     the middle button on the left, but maybe your devices are different than

25     mine.  It's on the screen, both in English and in Serbian.

Page 15780

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is the letter I was referring to.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will consult with my

 3     fellow Judges.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, this letter, as far as we can

 6     determine, has nothing to do with the protective measures.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  So I am allowed to use it?  That is what I take

 8     from your answer?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you can.  You can use it.

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  But I ask, when I use it, that it should not be

11     broadcasted, just to be on the safe side.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

13        (redacted)

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry, this has to be redacted because I was

15     using his name.  I didn't think about it.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good start.

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, I will refer to the statement you gave last year to

19     the OTP.  Can you please confirm that the ethnic composition of Brcko

20     before the outbreak of the conflict was 44.4 per cent Muslims,

21     25.4 per cent Croats, 20.8 per cent Serbs, and 9.4 per cent Yugoslavs or

22     others?

23        A.   Yes.  Maybe the percentages I provided are not absolutely

24     correct.  There may be a slight discrepancy.  But that would be

25     approximately the picture of the city at the time.

Page 15781

 1        Q.   And that the population of the town itself was 55.8 per cent

 2     Muslims, 20 per cent Serbs, and 6.9 per cent Croats?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the date?  I

 4     assume it is 1991.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It is in paragraph 4 of the statement which we

 6     tried to admit under 92 ter.  The statement as far as I remember is from

 7     the 12th of November, 2008, if I'm not mistaken, but I can check this.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My question related to the

 9     census.  A census was conducted in 1991, wasn't it?

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Exactly.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember if political parties organised

12     rallies in the time between 1990 and 1992 and that politicians like

13     Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic, Koljevic, Buha, and Vojislav Maksimovic

14     held speeches at rallies in Brcko?

15        A.   Yes, they did.  On the occasion of the establishment of the

16     Main Board of the Serbian Radical Party, and there was another rally

17     which was not political but it was an event when the Prositar [phoen]

18     association organised something in the culture hall.  But then later on

19     that turned into a political meeting led by the people that you

20     mentioned.

21        Q.   Do you remember that Radovan Karadzic on one of these occasions

22     said something like, Nobody has the right to separate the Serbs in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina from their motherland?

24             And Serbia he compared to the red colour of the Serbian flag with

25     blood Serbs have spilled before and that this would never happen again?

Page 15782

 1        A.   Yes, that was in front of the culture hall.  That was a rally or

 2     the founding meeting of the Serbian Radical Party.  They said by way of

 3     introduction that they had nothing to hide, and that's how Mr. Karadzic

 4     spoke about the events and about the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Has there also come a minister from Belgrade who said that nobody

 6     has the right to separate the Serbian people across the Drina from

 7     Serbia?

 8        A.   Yes.  That was in the culture hall when the cultural association

 9     Prositar [indiscernible] had their event, but that was later.  And that

10     gentleman was the minister for all the Drinas across -- all the Serbs

11     across the Drina.  I can't remember his name.  I believe that it was

12     either Cvijetic or Setinovic [phoen].  That's how he was introduced at

13     the beginning of his speech.  And he did say during that speech that

14     nobody had the right to separate the Serbs from each other, and that the

15     Serbs would always help their brethren across the Drina and further

16     afield.  He didn't mention the involvement of arms or military

17     involvement, but he did say that all sorts of assistance would be

18     extended to them.

19        Q.   When you were travelling through the region, did you see signs

20     that said SAO Serbian autonomous district Semberija and Majevica or SAO

21     Serbian Krajina?

22        A.   Yes.  Before the war started in Brcko, maybe a month and a half

23     before that, the SAO standing for the Serbian autonomous province of

24     Semberija and Majevica covering the area from Brcko in the direction of

25     Bijeljina was already written all over the signposts.  And there was the

Page 15783

 1     Serbian autonomous province of Krajina to the west -- or Krajina -- I

 2     don't remember the names.

 3        Q.   Before the outbreak of the conflict, did you observe JNA

 4     helicopters arriving and soldiers leaving the helicopter who were wearing

 5     red berets?

 6        A.   On several occasions.  The building where I live in Brcko is very

 7     close to the barracks of the JNA.  Actually, my balcony overlooks the

 8     landing strip for the helicopters.

 9        Q.   Did you observe members of this unit training your neighbours in

10     self-defence and how to arrest people?

11        A.   On several occasions.  When my wife and I were walking, as I've

12     already told you that, that was very close to my building.  And on

13     several occasions, the Red Berets have trained Ranko Cesic, Miso Cajevic,

14     a neighbour of mine Laza, and many other volunteers who volunteered and

15     who came of their own will to the barracks.

16        Q.   Do you remember which date the two bridges across the Sava River

17     were blown up?

18        A.   The 30th of April, 1992.  It was approximately around half past

19     4.00 in the morning.

20        Q.   And when did the actual fighting start in Brcko?

21        A.   I did not observe anybody shooting from close range.  I heard

22     explosions and detonations.  I could hear skirmishes involving weapons,

23     and that was during the night on the 2nd of May, but not in the town

24     itself where I live.  So sometime around the 3rd of May in the evening

25     things escalated and there were loud explosions, but I'm not sure whether

Page 15784

 1     they could be heard in town or around the town.  In any case, I would say

 2     that an all-out conflict started around the 3rd of May.

 3        Q.   When you were going with your neighbour, do you remember, a

 4     67-years-old woman, to a local market, what happened there, can you tell

 5     us?

 6        A.   On the 6th or the 7th of May, 1992, in the morning around 10.00

 7     or 11.00, I happened to be close to the Brcko police station.  And

 8     there's a market there.  Shooting started close to the market, so myself

 9     and a neighbour of mine found shelter in a building.  A friend of hers

10     took us to her apartment and then from the building -- from the window of

11     that building I saw that people were being executed across the road from

12     the building where I was.  Those were men in camouflage uniforms with

13     caps on their hands [as interpreted].  They did that.

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, before I come to the next

15     question, could you please show on the monitor the picture which is under

16     65 ter 4169.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, could you please tell us if you observed the

18     killing of civilians by men wearing camouflage uniforms?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the picture which is now shown on the monitor?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you observe the situation?

23        A.   I did not see this particular situation.

24        Q.   But you observed similar situations?

25        A.   Yes.  I saw a policeman in a similar uniform who was to the left

Page 15785

 1     from this particular policeman.  There is a wall there.  He turned three

 2     men facing the wall, and he shot at their heads from a very close range.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could you please show on the

 4     monitor the picture which has 65 ter 4066.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, can I ask you, do you know the man who is

 6     shooting?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Before the picture is seen on the monitor, I

 9     would already like to ask admission into evidence, and I can give you

10     additional information.  This -- both pictures have been admitted in the

11     Krajisnik case under P6 and P8.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the Krajisnik

13     case, lorries and railway carriages brought documents to be admitted.

14     First of all, the witness has to confirm whether this is part of Brcko,

15     whether he can recognise the building, if he cannot recognise the man in

16     uniform.  He has to tell us whether this building is actually in Brcko.

17     Whether this is Brcko at all.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is precisely the question

19     I was about to put.

20             Witness, according to you, is this taking place in Brcko, this

21     locality, or not?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the second picture we can

24     see three bodies.  The first one which we saw in the first picture and

25     further away there are two bodies lying on the ground.  In the first

Page 15786

 1     photograph on the left-hand side there seemed to be a woman there.  All

 2     in all, there are approximately or at least four bodies.

 3             I'm a little bit surprised, witness.  The person who's shooting,

 4     who is in blue, wearing a blue shirt, seemingly this is a policeman.  You

 5     don't know him?  He comes from Brcko, doesn't he?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the man in the photo.

 7     I don't know who he is.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

10     Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

12             At the time, how many policemen were there in Brcko?  There

13     weren't hundreds of them.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  I don't know

15     the number.  But I believe that they also mobilised reservists.  There

16     could have been a hundred or so.  I don't know their exact number.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall not belabour the point.

18             Registrar, please --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, something occurred

20     to me, something that could be of assistance.  Does Mr. Mussemeyer know

21     if this photo was ever shown in a previous case and admitted into the

22     evidence?  I believe that that would be of some significance.  It is not

23     impossible that the photo may have been used before.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I think you

25     said that the photograph had been admitted in the Krajisnik case.

Page 15787

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Exactly.  The first picture has been admitted

 2     under P6 and the second under P8 in the Krajisnik case.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking because there were some

 4     other cases dealing with crimes in Brcko, so I should like to know

 5     whether this has been admitted into the case file previously where it

 6     could have been more appropriate.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Seemingly these have been

 8     admitted and have also been admitted in the Zupljanin case, Zupljanin and

 9     Stanisic case.  So we shall give two exhibit numbers to these two

10     photographs.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

12     continues] ... Ranko Cesic and Goran Jelesic cases, was it admitted in

13     those cases?  That is what I should like Mr. Mussemeyer to tell us.  It

14     is easy to admit it into the file when a man is on trial who never was in

15     Brcko, for instance, Krajisnik, et cetera.  I shall like to know whether

16     this was admitted into the case file in the case of Goran Jelesic, who

17     confessed to the crime; and Ranko Cesic who actually bargained, plea

18     bargained with the OTP in order to be less severely punished.

19             Was it the case then.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know that,

21     Mr. Mussemeyer?

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I cannot give you an answer to this at the

23     moment.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be, that

25     is relevant because Brcko is part of the indictment.  So we shall admit

Page 15788

 1     these two photographs since the witness has recognised these locations.

 2             Registrar, please, can we have a number for these two

 3     photographs.

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, Brcko does not

 6     feature in my indictment nor does Samac.  This morning I re-read my

 7     indictment yet once again and they don't.  It's just pattern of behaviour

 8     of conduct or possibly a joint criminal enterprise.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are quite right.  That's

10     why we shall give these photographs two numbers.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 4169 will be Exhibit Number P1042 and

12     65 ter 04066 will be Exhibit P1043.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  For your assistance, I have an additional

14     information.  Both pictures have been tendered in the Krajisnik case with

15     the witness we have now here.

16        Q.   My next question, Mr. Witness:  When you were detained in

17     Elektro Brcko and you had to go through the city for working, did you see

18     many dead bodies lying in the city?

19        A.   Yes, outside the Galeb hotel.

20        Q.   I will come to another situation.  You were describing us that

21     you were working on electric poles once which was about 50 metres high

22     and that you saw, observed, the offloading of 20 bodies from a

23     refrigerator truck.  Do you remember this?

24        A.   I do remember offloading bodies.  I cannot say that there were

25     50 of them, because I did not count, so I do not know the exact number.

Page 15789

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please see the picture

 2     which has the 65 ter 4224.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, is this the situation you observed?

 4        A.   This hole, yes, was there where I worked.  But this was not the

 5     situation I observed.

 6        Q.   This is correct because the picture was according to my

 7     information taken the 6th and the 7th of May, 1992.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  But my question to the witness, and I think he

 9     confirmed this, that he observed a similar situation.

10        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

11        A.   That is correct.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I believe that the witness

13     could recognise this building, that this building is from Brcko; but as

14     he did not see this situation, there are no grounds upon which he can

15     recognise that this is a part of Brcko.  On the basis of the woods here,

16     he could recognise that this is Brcko?  And now the Prosecutor says that

17     he has seen or that he has observed similar situations.  This might be

18     from Guinea-Bissau.  I mean, this is really not appropriate on the part

19     of the Prosecutor.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what entitles you to

21     say that these are the surroundings of Brcko?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see this little white

23     truck and this excavator on top of the earth, this little truck, this

24     van, came past actually at least twice by the electric company Brcko

25     every day.  It is on that basis and also I saw, before, another

Page 15790

 1     photograph here at the OTP's when they asked me on what basis I concluded

 2     that this was the place where I worked at that time in Brcko, I explained

 3     to the Judges that the street lights which are -- I was working with the

 4     street lights which are near this hole.  As Mr. Seselj says, perhaps one

 5     could think that this is Guinea-Bissau, but on the basis of all these

 6     elements, I concluded that this is in Brcko because we had exactly the

 7     same things in Brcko.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this does not look like a

 9     truck; it looks like a bus.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Seselj, this is a little

11     lorry, it is a little truck.  And it also has a Red Cross mark on it,

12     this flag that you can see in front.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will not

14     admit this photograph.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, I will come to the situation in the Luka camp.  Did

21     you observe a person called Goran Jelesic at that time in Luka camp?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Do you remember a certain sentence which this Goran Jelesic said

24     that he has killed how many Muslims and Croats; do you remember the

25     number?

Page 15791

 1        A.   97.  He came escorted by Kosta and Monika [as interpreted].  Was

 2     he drunk or was he drugged, I don't know.  He was brandishing, waving, a

 3     pistol in one hand at he entered the hangar and he -- "fucked our

 4     balija's mother."  And he said, "I've killed 97 of you, and I shall kill

 5     myself another 97 of you."

 6        Q.   Do you remember which nickname he gave to himself?

 7        A.   Adolf.

 8        Q.   Only Adolf or was there also another word before?

 9        A.   Adolf was -- was an association, of course, to Hitler.  And that

10     meant that he was going to kill us balijas at Luka.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, these are all the questions I

12     wanted to do in relation to the statement the witness has given to us,

13     and I orally ask that his statement would be admitted according to

14     Rule 92 ter because many questions were put to the witness but I think

15     for complete understanding it is necessary also to have his statement

16     admitted.

17             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Many incompetent Prosecutors have

20     been seen in this courtroom, but I think that Mr. Mussemeyer is by far

21     the least competent.  How can it be by 92 ter when we have a viva voce

22     witness, a live witness?  So 92 ter cannot be applied at all when we have

23     a viva voce witness.  92 ter can be applied only when the witness is not

24     testifying viva voce.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have corrected this

Page 15792

 1     automatically.  The Prosecutor would like to have this statement

 2     admitted.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I believe we should tell the

 4     Prosecutor, we should tell the accused time and time again that he cannot

 5     make assessments about the Prosecutor, particularly if these are adverse


 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you tell us

 8     how much time the Prosecutor still has?

 9             You don't have any questions left?  You finished?

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to elaborate the letter I was

11     mentioning at the beginning.  I would only ask the witness if he knows

12     about it and what he can let us know about it.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I'm not mistaken,

14     there was no date and signature on that.  Could you develop this, tell us

15     more about it, please?

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like to have the answer from the

17     witness.  Him -- I think this is more credible as I give you --

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, could I ask you for what purpose

19     you want to raise this letter with the witness?  What is the relevance of

20     this?

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  That people have tried to put pressure on the

22     witness, and --

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But --

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER: -- this goes also to his credibility.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Mr. Mussemeyer, the issue of protective

Page 15793

 1     measures is not up for discussion at this moment.  And if you want to

 2     test his credibility, I find it difficult to see how this letter would be

 3     of any use in relation to testing his credibility.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is not the first time that things like this

 5     happened, and I admit that there is no signature and no date on the

 6     letter.  But maybe the witness can tell us if he has received the letter

 7     and what was the background of this.  I don't want to give any of these

 8     facts because it's not me to testify.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may put the question.

11     Please go ahead.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15794

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I don't have any other questions.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's -- very well.  Let's take

25     a break and then after the break Mr. Seselj will have 30 minutes.

Page 15795

 1                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.

 4             Mr. Seselj, you have 30 minutes.

 5             Yes, Mr. Mussemeyer.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It's only for the record.  We again have

 7     received the documents from the accused only five minutes ago, and they

 8     are useless for us because we don't understand them.  And I think -- I

 9     ask that the letter we were discussing about is moved into evidence.

10     Thanks.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's the same for me as far as

12     the documents are concerned.

13             Mr. Seselj.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I accept Madam Lattanzi's

15     criticism, and now I say that Mr. Mussemeyer is one of the best

16     Prosecutors who ever appeared in this courtroom.  He just makes an

17     inadvertent mistake occasionally so it happened this time also.  And he

18     has been in this case for seven years so far, he could have learned the

19     Serbian language.

20             And another thing, I only have some auxiliary instruments for the

21     cross-examination.  I do not have the documents according to the 65 ter

22     list.  I'm now waiting for their translation.  I'm waiting for the

23     translation of the two big books.  They still have not been translated

24     after two and a half years.  When my turn comes, I will surrender the

25     documents according to the 65 ter list.  Do not worry.

Page 15796

 1             As regards the admittance -- admission of this document, that is

 2     absolutely impossible.  I have instructed my legal advisor, Boris, to

 3     check this, and we shall see whether any of my associates participated in

 4     this matter or not.  So it does not make any sense for this to be

 5     admitted into the file because we don't have any proof.  And what is this

 6     proof of, in fact?  Anyway.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1033, tell me, first of all, what is it

 9     that you understand to be meant under the Serbian Chetnik Movement?  What

10     does it encompass?

11        A.   An armed formation, an armed unit, Mr. Seselj.

12        Q.   How would you define the members of this movement?  All those who

13     wear beards, Chetnik cockade, knives, ammunition, belts; how do you

14     identify members of this armed formation?

15        A.   For instance, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic was clean-shaven, he was

16     neat in contrast to all the rest whom I saw in town.

17        Q.   And by the way Mirko Blagojevic looked, you would never have

18     concluded that he was a Chetnik; right?

19        A.   I might have.  I might have, because all Chetniks in history, as

20     you know well and better than me, were not always bearded.  Excuse me, if

21     I may continue.  Their characteristic in history has been, was - as I

22     learned in the history subject - was that they had beards.

23        Q.   All right.  Tell me this:  What does this mean for you?  Were all

24     the Chetniks whom you saw in Brcko Mirko Blagojevic's men, to simplify

25     matters?

Page 15797

 1        A.   They -- they were not, not members of that detachment.

 2        Q.   So you did see other men who you thought were Chetniks but were

 3     not connected in any way to Mirko Blagojevic; am I right?

 4        A.   I don't know what the command was like, Mr. Seselj, whether Mirko

 5     was the commander in charge of all of them.  I don't know that.  But I

 6     did see members of the Serbian Chetnik Movements from different regions

 7     of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time.  I could tell that by the flag.

 8        Q.   But you do not know that there was a formal organisation that was

 9     called the Serbian Chetnik Movements?  You saw a group of people with a

10     black flag with a skull and bones on the flag or you see a cockade and

11     then you conclude that they are Chetniks.  And then you think that they

12     are members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement; am I right?

13        A.   Yes, you are right.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Good that we clarify that.  Do you know that the

15     Serbian Radical Party had a chapter which was called the Serbian Chetnik

16     Movement?

17        A.   I'm not a hundred per cent sure of that, but yes I do believe

18     that it did have such a chapter which was called the Serbian Chetnik

19     Movement as a sort of a fraction or an armed formation, a part of it.

20        Q.   Can we then make a distinction between that - I would call

21     it section - chapter, of the Serbian Radical Party which was called the

22     Serbian Chetnik Movement and that which you consider the Serbian Chetnik

23     Movement in the broader sense?

24        A.   As I have told the Judges and I reiterate and tell you again, I

25     do not think that all members of the Serbian Radical Party in Bosnia and

Page 15798

 1     Herzegovina were members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement or of armed

 2     formations.

 3        Q.   Fine.  But I would like to know something else.  Were all those

 4     whom you considered members of the Serbian Chetnik Movement members of

 5     the Serbian Radical Party or of its section called the Serbian Chetnik

 6     Movement?

 7        A.   Mr. Seselj, I'm trying to understand you.  The only people that

 8     I -- the only one who I know about at the time was Mirko Blagojevic from

 9     Bijeljina.  He belonged to the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and he was a

10     duke, a Vojvoda as you are yourself aware.

11        Q.   All right.  Did you ever hear that there was a Serbian Radical

12     Party in Brcko when you were there?

13        A.   I did not see it established formally, but I did know a

14     gentleman.  I perhaps was even friends with him before the war.  He

15     himself said that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party in Brcko.

16     That's what he said.  I don't know whether it was actually so.

17        Q.   I never heard that we had a Serbian Radical Party there before

18     the war.  We did have one in Bijeljina, but not in Brcko.  In Brcko it

19     was only in 1994 that we formed one.

20        A.   I believe that you are right there, but I can tell you this:  One

21     of the sympathisers as the man himself said of the party I knew and he

22     said that he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party.

23        Q.   All right.  You gave a number of statements about what you had

24     experienced in Brcko in May 1992 and at the beginning of June; is that

25     right?

Page 15799

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You gave a statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee on the

 3     25th of May, 1993; do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   There you described numerous crimes, but in just one place you

 6     say that Mirko Blagojevic from Bijeljina, with his Chetniks, was in

 7     Brcko.  You do not ascribe a single crime or anything bad to him.  And

 8     when you described the crimes, you attribute them to Arkan's men, to

 9     Mauzer; and now do you mention here Goran Jelesic?  I'm not quite sure.

10     I cannot look for it now.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  As I told you before, when the Trial Chamber asked me and

12     when Mr. Prosecutor asked me, all that I saw Mirko Blagojevic and his men

13     do was the incident which happened when he delivered us this speech at

14     Luka.  I was not affected then and when they beat up the other prisoners.

15        Q.   I have read all your statements.  It was the first time today

16     that you say that Mirko Blagojevic brought biscuits and cigarettes,

17     treated you to these there.  This is never mentioned in any of your

18     previous statements in these -- all these cases that you testified in.

19        A.   Yes, it is mentioned, Mr. Seselj.  It is.

20        Q.   Let us wager a bet here.  If this is proven by the Prosecutor, I

21     will confess to all the crimes that I'm charged with and I also -- I

22     challenge Mr. Mussemeyer to this.

23             So when you were talking with the Danish Helsinki Committee, you

24     never mentioned anything bad that could be attributed to

25     Mirko Blagojevic.  We agree there, right?

Page 15800

 1             Before this statement that you gave to the Danish Helsinki

 2     Committee in 1992 --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have you found it, Mr. Mussemeyer?

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  No, I don't refer to this.  But I wanted to

 5     remind you that the witness in his statement he gave to the OTP says

 6     related to the statement he gave to the Danish Helsinki Committee --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't remind us of that.  You had

 8     ample time.  We'll come to that, Mr. Mussemeyer.  You don't have the

 9     right to do this --

10             MR. MUSSEMEYER: [Previous translation continues] ... use this,

11     then, because the witness said --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm using everything that is useful

13     to me.  Don't ask me why I used this.  I can use whatever.  I am very

14     sovereign in my defence, and only the Trial Chamber can put objections of

15     this nature to me.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, what are the

17     grounds for your objection, please?

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Because the witness said in his statement he

19     gave to the OTP and it is in number 1:

20             "I must point out that many facts in the record of this

21     interview," referring to the interview to the Danish Helsinki Committee,

22     "are incorrect due to the fact and the fact that I never signed that

23     record since I received a copy of it in English a long time after the

24     interview was held.  I do not consider it to be my statement."

25             And that should be on the record.  Thank you.

Page 15801

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we should look at

 2     the record to see that it is a trick by the OTP against

 3     Frederick Harhoff.  They put it in the statement, and they gave it to the

 4     witness to sign.  Discrepancy between the statement given to the

 5     Danish Helsinki Committee and the first statement given to the OTP

 6     consist only in the numbers of killed, but the OTP is trying to influence

 7     Mr. Harhoff so as to make Mr. Harhoff take a negative stance towards me.

 8     Sometimes Mr. Harhoff is aware of that, sometimes he is not.  And what

 9     Mr. Mussemeyer is doing is absolutely pointless, although he's the best

10     Prosecutor in this OTP.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, do you remember that the statement you provided to the

13     Danish Helsinki Committee already in 1992, before that you provided a

14     statement to the military security service of the JNA?

15        A.   Never.  I never provided a statement to the military security --

16     military security service of the JNA.

17        Q.   That statement is on two pages?

18        A.   The only thing is that I made a record that Captain Dragan

19     insisted on.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        Q.   Okay, okay.  Let's take it easy.  That statement got into the

25     hands of the military security services?

Page 15802

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   As your statement, which you signed?

 3        A.   No, I didn't sign anything.

 4        Q.   How come you didn't sign it?

 5        A.   The man never asked me to sign it, Mr. Seselj.

 6        Q.   First of all, you said --

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Slowly.  Please slow down.

 8     Please slow down.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I am on my feet because I am

10     informed that the accused is in the -- that the witness is using his

11     first name when he is answering questions, and it doesn't reflect in the

12     English translation.  So I don't know how quite we deal with this, but it

13     seems that we may need a redaction of the B/C/S version of the live feed

14     from the court today.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't hear that, but they are

16     doing it on purpose in order to disturb the transmission.  I am

17     interested in public trial, not in a private trial.  You said that --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Mr. Seselj, you

19     should not mention the first name of the witness.  It seems that --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, never.  I did not.

21     Although Mr. Mussemeyer is the best Prosecutor and sometimes he makes a

22     mistake of this sort, I'm a bit younger by at least 30 years and such

23     mistakes never happen to me.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You did not enter this first

25     name?

Page 15803

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Tell me this, is it true --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, did you say your first

 5     name?  Did you mention your first name?  Can you confirm this?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's redact this

 8     then.  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to say that this is

11     what the Prosecutor said.  He said exactly that.  He never said that the

12     accused had said anything.  He said the witness pronounced his own name,

13     his first name.  That's all he said.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My fellow

15     Judge Lattanzi is absolutely right.

16             Please proceed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, very well, I've been

18     exculpated.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is it true that when you were interviewed on that occasion and

21     that that was recorded there, you said that nobody had beaten you

22     personally and that everything [as interpreted] treated you fairly?  Is

23     that what you stated and was that recorded?

24        A.   I did say that I had been beaten, but it was not recorded.

25        Q.   So you said that you had been beaten but that was not recorded?

Page 15804

 1        A.   Yes, I was beaten.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You're saying that you were beaten.  But when you spoke to

 3     them, did you tell them that you had been beaten?

 4        A.   With whom, Mr. Seselj?

 5        Q.   You say with Captain Dragan.  What was the name of the other

 6     officer who was with you who took you to Captain Dragan?

 7        A.   Rade Bozic.

 8        Q.   Rade Bozic, was he present when that record was made?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Only Captain Dragan was there?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In what capacity did he make that record, who was he then?  That

13     was in Zvornik?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Where was it then?

16        A.   In Belgrade on the 13th floor of the Beogradjanka building.

17        Q.   Why did you go to him there?

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        Q.   Who brought you from Zvornik to him, to Serbia?

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need another redaction, line

23     23, page 98.  I beg you both to slow down.  Slow down.  You are speaking

24     much too fast.  You think we know your language perfectly, but that's the

25     problem; we don't, unfortunately.  It takes time to learn this language.

Page 15805

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Who took you to Captain Dragan?

 3        A.   Rade Bozic took me from Luka, and I met Captain Dragan on that

 4     same day in Zvornik.

 5        Q.   But I just said that it was in Zvornik and you said, No, not in

 6     Zvornik, in Beogradjanka.  You met Captain Dragan in Zvornik, and Captain

 7     Dragan allegedly personally took you to Belgrade; is that correct?

 8        A.   No.  He did not personally take me, but we shared the same

 9     vehicle and a journalist of illustrated politics.  And Rade Bozic was

10     also in the same car.  And that's when, together with them, I went to

11     Belgrade, or rather, to Zemun to the golden oar restaurant where my wife

12     was waiting for me with some friends.

13        Q.   Did you provide this statement in the golden oar?

14        A.   No, two days later I met Captain Dragan, and then he said, Come

15     to me to Beogradjanka building.

16        Q.   Did you tell him that you had been beaten?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   So how come that wasn't recorded?

19        A.   I don't know, Mr. Seselj.

20        Q.   Very well then.  And why didn't you say to Mr. Harhoff and the

21     Danish Helsinki Committee anything about Mirko Blagojevic and the alleged

22     Radicals who had ill treated the prisoners?

23        A.   One more thing, Mr. Seselj, Mr. Prosecutor here is right.  Not

24     only in the statement that you have was it where I distanced myself from

25     that testimony, but in my four previous testimonies I repeated every time

Page 15806

 1     that I did not sign the statement that was compiled at the

 2     Danish Helsinki Committee.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.  There is a statement that you did sign.

 4     On the 4th and 5th of April, 1995, you spoke to the Prosecutors of

 5     The Hague Tribunal, and you provided a statement on a total of 13 pages,

 6     and you signed that statement in 1995.  In that statement - I'm looking

 7     at it - on the 13 pages of this statement you don't mention

 8     Mirko Blagojevic or his Chetniks.  Nowhere in this big huge statement.

 9     You only mentioned a Chetnik by the name of Enver, who carved a cross on

10     Ibrahim Mulagovic's [phoen] forehead.  You don't say that he had anything

11     to do with Mirko Blagojevic.  You don't mention Mirko Blagojevic.  You

12     don't mention the Serbian Radical Party or my name.  This is your

13     statement provided to The Hague Tribunal in 1995.  The Trial Chamber has

14     it, the OTP has it, and you signed it.  Where is Mirko Blagojevic in

15     there?

16        A.   Yes, you're right, I did sign it.

17        Q.   But no Mirko Blagojevic?

18        A.   Can I tell you why Mirko Blagojevic is not there?

19        Q.   Go on, then.

20        A.   Mirko Blagojevic did not beat me personally.  Chetniks didn't

21     beat me.  I never said that.  When people ask me things, I answer.

22        Q.   But you did not provide the statement only about who beat you.

23     You also provided a statement about who beat the others, who ill treated

24     the prisoners, who killed the prisoners.  And you told everything in the

25     statement.  But in the entire statement, there is no reference to

Page 15807

 1     Mirko Blagojevic, the Serbian Radical Party, or the Serbian Chetnik

 2     Movement.  In the entire statement nowhere do I find those things.

 3        A.   Yes, I agree, you are absolutely right.  Which doesn't mean that

 4     what I have just said today before the Trial Chamber, before the OTP, and

 5     before you is not correct.

 6        Q.   I'm not interested in that.  I'm not interested whether it's

 7     correct or not.  I want to speak the language of facts.

 8        A.   You're right.

 9        Q.   You have -- go on and try to convince somebody else, not me.

10        A.   You're absolutely right, Mr. Seselj.  I apologise.

11        Q.   I'm not here to commend you.  I'm here to refute your testimony.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And I'm using all the weapons that I have at my disposal to

14     refute your testimony.

15        A.   I agree with you, Mr. Seselj.

16        Q.   In the record, Captain Dragan's record, there is nothing about

17     it.  In your statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee there is nothing

18     about it, but there is a reference, one reference, that Mirko Blagojevic

19     was in Brcko.  In your 1995 statement to the OTP investigators, not a

20     single reference to it.  On the 15th of May, 1996, you gave The Hague

21     investigators a supplementary statement.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   Yes, they asked me about that statement, Mr. Seselj.  I never

23     signed it.  I did talk to the investigators in connection with that

24     statement, and I said if they wanted to speak more about it we could do

25     so.

Page 15808

 1        Q.   Whether you signed it or not, this is something I won't go into

 2     it.

 3        A.   I did not.

 4        Q.   But, however, the OTP at The Hague submitted this to me as a

 5     supplement to your statement.

 6        A.   I would sign it right now in front of you.

 7        Q.   Do not sign anything in front of me, please do not sign, for

 8     heaven's sake, my papers.

 9        A.   You are quite right, Mr. Seselj.

10        Q.   In this supplement, you never make any reference to either

11     Mirko Blagojevic or to the Serbian Radical Party or to me or to the

12     Radicals or to the Serbian Chetnik Movement; in no place do you make any

13     such reference?

14        A.   You are quite right.

15        Q.   Then we have 2008, well into my trial, in other words, The Hague

16     OTP calls you, and the OTP at The Hague prepares in advance a statement

17     for you to sign; right?

18        A.   I don't know that they prepared any statement in advance for that

19     purpose.

20        Q.   In 2008, that was on the 11th of December, 2008, do you remember

21     that encounter?

22        A.   I did not have a contact then.  I received this document, this

23     statement that I was supposed to read, and to sign every page of that

24     statement, you're right.

25        Q.   How did you get it?

Page 15809

 1        A.   By mail.

 2        Q.   The OTP at The Hague prepared this statement, sent it to you by

 3     post, and you signed every page and then sent it back?

 4        A.   Yes, you are quite right.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen of the Trial Chamber,

 6     Judges, I hope that you heard this.  This statement under 92 bis was

 7     drawn up by the OTP, sent to the witness by mail for him to sign every

 8     page and to send it back.  This is what the witness has just said.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to read it, and if I agreed

10     with everything in it, to sign the way you have described it.  And I did

11     say that I would do so.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is important.

13     You're saying -- you're telling us - and you're under oath - that you

14     received a statement dated 11 December 2008 sent by mail.  Was it written

15     in English or in your own language?  In English obviously?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnian Serbo-Croat, yes.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

18     continues] ... language, in your own language, several pages long, you

19     read it and signed it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And certified by a notary

21     public.  This is what the officer of the Tribunal, the employee of the

22     Tribunal, said I should do.  And I did so.  I had it thus authenticated.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have this authentication by a

24     public -- notary public in a city in a foreign country in which this

25     witness probably lives.  I shall not mention the name.

Page 15810

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has never happened in any

 3     trial as far as I know, namely, that the OTP prepared a so-called

 4     consolidated statement under Rule 92 bis and sent it by mail without any

 5     conversation, without any consultations, without any consideration to the

 6     witness, with the annotation:  If you agree, sign it and send it back.

 7             And a while ago the Prosecutor wanted you to admit this into the

 8     file.  Now, the first thing in the statement --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

10             Witness, it seems that this statement is different from what you

11     said earlier on a number of points.  So why did you sign it?  You could

12     have disagreed with it.  You could have not signed it.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I probably supplemented

14     it by describing this incident in Luka when Mirko Blagojevic's men came.

15     I have given so many statements that -- and I believe that I described

16     this orally many times here in the courtroom.  And I stand behind what I

17     signed.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understand you

19     correctly, you testified before the Helsinki Commission and did not

20     mention Mirko Blagojevic or anything of the sort.  Then later you were

21     interviewed by Captain Dragan and there was another statement but you

22     don't mention it.  And in 2008 suddenly we have a statement with other

23     elements.  Is this what happened?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the statement to the

25     Helsinki Committee, I did have a conversation with them, an interview

Page 15811

 1     with them, and Mr. Harhoff was present.  I talked with Mr. Sisby, and

 2     Mr. Harhoff was with my wife outside that office.  He was not present at

 3     all when I was having this interview with a so-called interpreter.  She

 4     could not speak either good English -- Bosnian, Serbo-Croat, or Danish.

 5     I asked after the conversation, Should I sign anything?  And they told

 6     me, This is not a document for any signature, any sign.  If need be I

 7     shall send you the document.

 8             After a certain time, I got that document in English.  I regret

 9     the fact that I do not have these copies, because I tried to rectify the

10     things which I then understood.

11             As regards the statement to Captain Dragan, I tell you that was

12     done in his office, and I don't (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need another redaction,

15     Mr. Registrar.  Very well.  I see that we're running out of time.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am in a panic as to whether I

17     shall have enough time.

18             How much time do I have left ?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We still have 20 minutes before

20     7.00, and I don't know how much time you have left.  I'll tell you in a

21     minute.  10 to 15 minutes -- 12 minutes.  I was right.  12 minutes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Little time, very little time.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, look here.  You are far away.  The OTP is here at The Hague.

25     The OTP does its work and discharges conscientiously its duty because

Page 15812

 1     they are conscientious and honourable men.  But the OTP has a need in

 2     this trial which it is conducting against me.  They put their need on

 3     paper without you in your absence and they send it to you and they tell

 4     you, Read this and sign it if you agree.

 5             Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, without you, without having talked to you, the OTP in the

 8     first paragraph actually swoops upon Mr. Harhoff and says that many facts

 9     in the record from the statement to the Danish Helsinki Committee are

10     incorrect.  And they send this to you.  And now you receive it, how

11     carefully you read it - I will not go into that, maybe you did, maybe you

12     didn't.

13             Is that right?

14        A.   No, that is not exactly the way it was, Mr. Seselj.

15        Q.   Anyway, you signed it and you sent it to the OTP.  And the OTP is

16     now proposing this to be directly admitted into the file under 92 ter.

17     Fortunately, the Trial Chamber did not admit it.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Think, Judges, how many other

19     things have already been admitted under this rule in this way -- well,

20     anyway.  This is a finished thing.  It is a done thing.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now, the OTP introduces Mirko Blagojevic for the first time in

23     the penultimate paragraph, that is, paragraph 42 --

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry, Your Honours, the witness should be

25     allowed to explain how it actually was that the statement was made.  The

Page 15813

 1     accused put a proposition to him and the witness say, No, that is not how

 2     it was.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have the time for that.

 4     Let somebody else ask that.  The OTP should have done that.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On the 22nd of October, 2009, you provided a new statement.  You

 7     added some things.  But, again, you never mentioned either

 8     Mirko Blagojevic or myself or the Serbian Radical Party.  You did mention

 9     a Chetnik flag that you saw somewhere, but that is neither here nor

10     there.

11             Sir, these are all your statements that you provided to

12     The Hague OTP.  I have read your testimonies in the four previous cases.

13     Can I publicly say which cases those all were?  Because you were not

14     protected in those case and you are protected here.  May I mention them?

15     Maybe it will reveal his identity.  Am I allowed?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, then I give up.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   No, no.  I'm not going to ask you about what you said --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, but Mr. Seselj

22     said that it was in this statement that the witness the first time

23     mentioned Mirko Blagojevic.  If you look carefully at paragraph 32, every

24     time when he mentioned Mirko Blagojevic there is at the end of the

25     sentence the source when he mentioned it the first time.  And he

Page 15814

 1     mentioned Mirko Blagojevic already in testimonies in other trials.  So

 2     it's quite possible that the first time in the statement he mentioned him

 3     because his statements from before were from 1995, but in the meantime

 4     the witness has testified at least three times in other cases, and there

 5     he mentioned Mirko Blagojevic.  You can check this every time when you

 6     check the source given in paragraph 42.  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not true what Mr. Mussemeyer is

 8     saying is not true.  Look at paragraph 42, Your Honours.  It says about

 9     Mirko Blagojevic.  Him and his escorts introduced themselves as Serbian

10     Chetniks and Radicals.  And after that there is a reference.  On the

11     4th of February, 2004, in one case on page 477.

12             And then his men arrived in the camp several times and ill

13     treated and beat the prisoners.  You won't find that in none of the four

14     testimonies, and there's not even a reference like in paragraph 42.  This

15     is a lie, and this is the OTP's trick.  Maybe Mr. Mussemeyer doesn't know

16     that because he is a very capable OTP, but somebody else may have plotted

17     this.  You won't find that in none of the four testimonies.  And I don't

18     want to move into a private session --

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, that is enough.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you want me to stop?  Okay, I'll

21     stop.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You have understood what I am

23     saying, to always talk about the Prosecutor, whether he's good or bad,

24     you are making fun of us.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I have established

Page 15815

 1     some things and I would like to pin-point them.  And I would like to make

 2     the strongest possible impression on the general public because I believe

 3     that this is the fundamental part of these proceedings, what has just

 4     happened --

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are talking to a

 6     judicial Bench, not to the public at large.  We are not making speeches

 7     to the public at large here.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, I am addressing you,

 9     the Trial Chamber, and I am also addressing the general public because

10     you are trying me and the general public is trying you.  And it is not

11     enough for justice to be administered here.  The general public has to

12     gain the impression that justice is indeed administered here.  And I

13     would like to remind you of this principle.  You are trying me, the

14     general public is trying you.  Who is going to --

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] We are very familiar with that

16     principle.  I shall not respond anymore because we are in a hurry.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Okay.  I have very little time.  Can you remember very precisely

20     when was it that Mirko Blagojevic came to the Luka camp?

21        A.   Let's say that it was on the 29th or the 30th of May.

22        Q.   The 29th or the 30th of May?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   On what occasion?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 15816

 1        Q.   Did you hear that a member of his unit, Branislav Filipovic,

 2     Sumar, was killed in the month of May during the battle for Brcko?

 3        A.   Yes, I heard it from the local Serbs who worked with me.

 4        Q.   When did that happen?  Can you be very precise?

 5        A.   I heard that it was on the 15th or the 17th of May.  I don't know

 6     exactly.

 7        Q.   The dead body of Branislav Filipovic, Sumar, remained on the

 8     Muslim side; the Muslims got hold of his dead body; right?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Do you know that his dead body was exchanged?

11        A.   No, I don't know that.

12        Q.   Let's look at the document --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, not today but at a

14     later stage I would like the Prosecutor to tell me why the stamp of the

15     notary public of a state I shall not mention is dated the

16     24th of March, 2010.  I would like someone to explain this to me, why it

17     says 24th of March, 2010.  I would like a very accurate explanation for

18     this.

19             That said, please proceed.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone not on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could the usher please put

23     a very short document on the ELMO, or, rather, put it to the witness.

24     This is Mirko Blagojevic's statement.  The OTP and the Trial Chamber

25     already have it.  This is Mirko Blagojevic's statement.  It's very short.

Page 15817

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Would you please be so kind and read it aloud.

 3        A.   The whole statement?

 4        Q.   It's not long.

 5        A.   Okay.

 6        Q.   If you are up to it; if not, I can read it.

 7        A.   Yes, I can do it.

 8             "I Mirko Blagojevic born on the 1st of August, 1956" --

 9        Q.   You can skip the personal data.  Let's go to the statement

10     itself.

11        A.   "Statement, the company which I commanded was called the Serbian

12     Chetnik detachment and was part of the Territorial Defence at the SAO of

13     Semberija and Majevica.  We participated in the fighting for the

14     liberation of Brcko from the 3rd to the 17th of May, 1992.  My unit

15     participated in breaking through the corridor towards Obudovac and

16     consolidating positions at the sector of Ivici as well as the expansion

17     of liberated territory at the sector of Klanac and the stretch of the

18     shoe factory Izvor.  The unit had about 100 people.  Most of the people

19     in the unit were members of the Serbian Radical Party from Bijeljina, and

20     there were some from other parties as well as those who were not members

21     of any party.  But at that time it did not matter at all who came from

22     which party.  What was primary was the struggle, and the Chetnik Movement

23     is the common tradition of the entire Serbian people.

24             "In my unit there was not a single volunteer from Serbia.  We

25     returned from Brcko on the 17th of May because there was a certain truce

Page 15818

 1     and there was also a conflict between me and Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, which

 2     went back to the time of the liberation of Bijeljina.  Mauzer was a

 3     member of Arkan's volunteer guard, and we could not -- we just could not

 4     agree on participation in concerted actions, and that is why, in order to

 5     avoid an armed clash between our units in agreement with the command of

 6     the Territorial Defence, we decided to go back to Bijeljina.

 7             "I was at the Luka camp only once on the 16th of May, 1992.

 8     Namely, a member of my unit Filipovic Branislav called Sumar was killed

 9     in Brcko and the Muslims got hold of his dead body and asked 20 of their

10     own in exchange.  With the Muslim side by radio communications, we agreed

11     on this exchange.  I addressed the town command, and the command decided

12     that 20 Muslim prisoners should be taken over from the Luka camp and

13     the -- handed over to the Muslim side and that the Muslim side should

14     deliver the dead body of our killed combatant.

15             "We returned to Brcko on the 12th of June, 1992, at the

16     invitation of the Army of Republika Srpska, i.e., at the call of

17     Captain Seho vac.  Then they assigned us in such a way that we could not

18     have any contact with" --

19        Q.   Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.

20        A.   "... nor any concerted actions because the command was mindful of

21     this in view of the fact that it was generally known that we as members

22     of the Serbian Radical Party had clashed with the -- with Arkan's men

23     already in Bijeljina.  I knew Mile Gatarevic, called Bolero, from Brcko,

24     and I know that he was not a member of the Serbian Radical Party and that

25     he was not in my unit" --

Page 15819

 1        Q.   Very well.  What is your impression?  Is this a truthful

 2     statement on the part of Mirko Blagojevic?

 3        A.   Perhaps.  In all that, I would not agree that they returned from

 4     Brcko on the 17th of May because I saw him at a later date after that.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'll give you the proof that he returned on the

 6     17th of May.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please quickly see

 8     document 3.  This is the death certificate of Branislav Filipovic, Sumar,

 9     and the date of his burial in Bijeljina.  Do you have it?  The Judges

10     have it.  This is the death certificate for Branislav Filipovic, Sumar,

11     proving that the burial was on the 16th of May.  All members of Mirko

12     Blagojevic's unit headed by him attended the funeral.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you see the death certificate?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So Mirko Blagojevic had to be in the Luka camp before the

17     16th of May to take over the 20 imprisoned Muslims, to deliver them to

18     the Muslim side, and to take over the dead body of his soldier.  So it

19     could not have been on the 29th of May.  It could -- it had to be before

20     the 16th of May.  And now you see Mirko Blagojevic came to the Luka camp

21     to take over 20 Muslim prisoners to be exchanged, and to the rest of you

22     he brought cigarettes and cookies and he talked to you in a very

23     civilised manner with a lot of respect.  He addresses you as brethren.

24     He takes 20 prisoners away.  And you say that his men subsequently came

25     back to beat you.  You really don't think that I will believe you.  Maybe

Page 15820

 1     the Trial Chamber will believe you, the OTP will believe you, but how can

 2     you think that I can believe you?

 3        A.   Mr. Seselj, it seems that you were not listening.  I never said

 4     that I was in Luka on the 17th of May.  I was taken to Luka on the

 5     26th of May, 1992, and I'm telling you what I saw in Luka.  And that was

 6     on the 29th or the 30th of May.  Mr. Mirko Blagojevic and his escorts

 7     were in Luka.

 8        Q.   You never stated that before.  You have just made it up in order

 9     to grovel up to the OTP of The Hague Tribunal.  And it is only in your

10     statement that you did not provide yourself.  It was done for you and

11     sent to you by mail.  And in none of the four previous cases did you say

12     that Mirko Blagojevic was in Luka on the 29th or the 30th.

13             I'm now giving you Mirko Blagojevic's statement testifying to his

14     only arrival at Luka.  Let's look at another thing.  Let's look at the

15     book by Jusuf Trbic.  Did you ever hear of Jusuf Trbic?

16        A.   No, never.

17        Q.   He's a Muslim intellectual who published a book entitled "The

18     Masters of the Darkness."

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please finish your question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is my last question,

21     Mr. President.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let's look at the document, this is document number 2, six pages,

24     but we won't read them.  The title page, Jusuf Trbic, "The Masters of the

25     Darkness," and then on the second page you see the name of the publisher.

Page 15821

 1     And then we see that the publisher was the Kujundzic company based in

 2     Lukavac Tuzla.  Do you agree?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that that's where the book was published?

 5             And he gives a Muslim perspective of the war.  But what makes it

 6     interesting is this:  On page 5, the last paragraph speaks about the

 7     burial in the "sehid", burial ground, in Bijeljina, and he says:

 8             "Among all the political parties, only members of the Serbian

 9     Radical Party, Mr. Vojislav Seselj, was there ..."

10             Can you see that?  And he's a Muslim writer.  Do you see on the

11     sixth page, that's where he says or he announces the protest of the

12     Serbian Chetnik Movement of North-Eastern Bosnia, signed by

13     Mirko Blagojevic, against the crimes against Bijeljina, Muslims in the

14     night between 24th and 25th of September, when 14 members of the Sarajlic

15     family and 8 members of the Sejmenovic family were killed.

16             Do you see how harsh Mirko Blagojevic is in his protest?  Do you

17     see that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And it is brought by a Muslim author in his book recognising

20     Mirko Blagojevic's protest.  And you are telling us here that

21     Mirko Blagojevic's men beat prisoners in the Luka camp?

22        A.   Yes, they did, Mr. Seselj.

23        Q.   You made it up completely.  You made it up subsequently to please

24     the OTP in order to please the OTP because they don't have any proof

25     against either me or the Serb radical.  They want to find anything.  And

Page 15822

 1     we don't see it in your previous statements; we only see it in one

 2     statement of yours.  You wanted to be a protected witness only in these

 3     proceedings; before that, you testified in open court.  I believe that

 4     you're more truthful there.  Only because you were telling lies you

 5     wanted to testify under protection measures because you're ashamed of the

 6     lies that you've told us today.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you like to

 8     respond that you are making a false statement, false testimony?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             Mr. Seselj, I'm not here either to please the Prosecutor or

11     anybody.  I want to please the Judges and you yourself.  Whatever I said

12     before this Tribunal in the past is the truth.  It is not my intention,

13     Mr. Seselj, to accuse the Serbian people for what happened in Bosnia.  It

14     is my intention, if you will, to participate in assisting the Tribunal to

15     learn the truth.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Why did you ask for protection measures today and never before?

18   A.   Because, Mr. Seselj, because members of your party in (redacted) still

19     to this very day most of them are either criminals or people with limited

20     memories, (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted) is a small place, Mr. Seselj, everything travels -- every news

23     travels fast there.  And you know very well that you're politically very

24     powerful in (redacted).

25   Q.   How can you can be powerful politically in (redacted), because there's

Page 15823

 1     nobody but criminals in my party there?

 2        A.   Not only criminals, there are other people there.  But most of

 3     them are criminals and radical elements.

 4        Q.   You're a clever person, a smart person.  You're saying that I'm

 5     politically powerful in (redacted) and everybody in my party is criminal.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you see this, Judges, how can I

 7     be powerful if only the worst criminals are in my party?  How can I be

 8     politically powerful then?  Criminals are somewhere else, and criminals

 9     are false witnesses.  Bear that in mind.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are stopping

11     now.

12             Witness, you must stay where you are because you've been granted

13     a protective measure.  I would like to thank you for having come to

14     testify at the request of the Trial Chamber.

15             I know, Mr. Mussemeyer, that you wanted to take the floor for a

16     few minutes.  Can you take the floor in the presence of the witness, or

17     do we need to drop the blinds and the witness needs to leave the

18     courtroom?

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I just have two little issues.  The first is

20     your question how it comes that the notary has a date given of March of

21     this year.  If you look at what is written there, it says that it's the

22     commission expiry.  Above the last line, there is the date 11/12/08.  So

23     I think this is a misunderstanding.  He signed -- the notary signed it

24     on -- in November 2008, and his commission expires at March of this year.

25             And, with your permission, I would like to ask the witness only

Page 15824

 1     one question in re-direct.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, there can be no re-direct.  You

 3     send him your questions by mail.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is no re-direct after the

 5     questions of the Judges.

 6             I'd like to turn to my colleagues and confirm this.  So there is

 7     no re-direct.

 8             Mr. Marcussen, I thought you wanted to say something concerning a

 9     housekeeping matter.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, I think in light of the time, we

11     don't need to go into these matters today.  I can wait or address them in

12     another way.  But I would say this, though.  It has been suggested today

13     that the Prosecution has somehow fabricated a statement and sent it to

14     the witness for him to sign.  That is incorrect, and the Prosecution will

15     look into this.  As we cannot re-direct the witness on this, we may be

16     presenting other evidence to show how this statement came into being.

17     But the Prosecution has not just somehow sent the statement off by -- and

18     instructed the witness to sign the statement.  That is incorrect, and it

19     was improper the way this was put by the accused.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  May I add half a sentence.  I remember --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not say that the witness said

22     that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I remember that the statement went back and

25     forth several times because the witness made corrections to the -- to

Page 15825

 1     details of the statement.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             To finish off, we have already overstepped our time.  We have

 4     four witnesses left, not five, four.  We are currently checking their

 5     state of health, and as soon as one of them can come and testify, he will

 6     take the stand.  But I would like to be extremely clear.  If the medical

 7     reports are such that and the experts say that these witnesses cannot

 8     come and testify, then the -- then Rule 92 quater will apply.  Everything

 9     rests on the assessment of the physicians for the moment.

10             The court stands adjourned.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.