Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16160

 1                           Tuesday, 6 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is case number IT-03-67-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

10             This is July -- Tuesday, July 6, and I welcome the

11     representatives of the OTP, Mr. Seselj, and everyone helping us.

12             Today's hearing will be devoted to a videolink with a witness, a

13     witness who is in Belgrade, and we'll look into this later on.  But

14     before this, I have an urgent problem to solve.

15             Could we please move into closed session, Registrar.

16                           [Closed session]

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Page 16173

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we are currently in

23     open session.  Can you give me your first name, last name, and date of

24     birth?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nenad Jovic.  I was born

Page 16174

 1     on the 2nd of October, 1957, in Radalj, near Mali Zvornik.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation

 3     or do you not have a job at the moment?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now my request for an invalid's

 5     pension is being processed, so I'm unemployed at the moment.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you have the solemn

 7     declaration in your hands, I shall ask you to read it out, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I stand up?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you can, you may stand up.

10     Otherwise, you may remain seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

13     and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  NENAD JOVIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           [Witness testified via videolink]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, you may sit

18     down.

19             Sir, I shall explain to you how this hearing will unfold.  The

20     hearing will last two days.  The Judges, whom you can see on the screen,

21     will put questions to you.  We have planned an hour and a half questions,

22     i.e., 30 minutes per Judge.  Once this is finished, the Prosecutor will

23     put questions to you, and the Prosecutor will have one hour and a half.

24     Mr. Seselj will also have one hour and a half to put questions to you.

25                           Questioned by the Court:

Page 16175

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is my first question now,

 2     and it's a very straightforward one:  Sir, we have realised, on looking

 3     at the entire case file we have, that you have made several statements as

 4     of 2003 onwards.  After that, you were interviewed on several occasions

 5     by the OTP; until 2007, approximately.  And then all of a sudden, in 2007

 6     you held press conferences before the Serb media in which you indicated

 7     that you were a Defence witness for Mr. Seselj.  You also drafted a

 8     statement for the benefit of Mr. Seselj's Defence on the 29th of January,

 9     2007.

10             Could you explain to us what has happened?  How is it that we

11     have the feeling that you were initially a Prosecution witness, and from

12     2007 onwards you became a Defence witness?  What has happened in the

13     meantime?  Can you shed some light on this for us, please?

14        A.   I can explain this.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't hear the

16     witness now at all.  The official did something for me here, and now I

17     can't hear the witness.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall check this.  Just wait

19     a minute, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain this.  Can you hear

21     me now?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a moment, please.

23     We need to check that Mr. Seselj's microphone is working properly.

24             You may begin your explanation.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The problem is that I can't hear

Page 16176

 1     the witness.  Now the volume has been put up by the usher, and it's so

 2     loud that it's intolerable.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that

 3     I can't hear the witness.  I heard him a minute ago, when the headphones

 4     were connected to a different source.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please begin your

 6     explanation, and we'll see whether Mr. Seselj can hear you or not.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer the question.  I can

 8     explain why there was this change with respect to the statements.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear him now.  Apparently,

10     there was something that was preventing me from hearing him.  Did the

11     witness actually say something?  He said something very briefly.  Could

12     the witness say something now?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please repeat.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could he say anything?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please say something

16     so that we can check whether Mr. Seselj can hear you or not.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear him now.  I was

19     listening to him from the outset by plugging this into a different

20     source, but a minute ago I couldn't hear the witness at all.  I heard

21     everyone, apart from the witness, and now I can hear the witness again.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's working now.

23             Witness, please tell us again why you switched from being a

24     Prosecution witness to a Defence witness.  What happened, actually?

25        A.   Your Honours, first of all, please be patient so that I can

Page 16177

 1     explain this to you in detail.  I want to testify truthfully, and I

 2     wouldn't want any lies to become public -- to be disseminated amongst the

 3     public.

 4             I didn't intend to become a Prosecution witness.  I was

 5     interviewed in a very inappropriate way by investigators, and for 14

 6     hours, in fact.  There were threats.  I was blackmailed.  My family was

 7     threatened too.  I was threatened with prison.  I was offered money.  I

 8     was offered the possibility of staying in a hotel in Holland if I would

 9     learn by heart a statement that had already been drafted against Seselj.

10     I was offered six months in a hotel in Holland.  I was to learn a

11     statement that had been written by heart.  I said I would spend time with

12     beautiful girls, and an associate, Predrag, said, You can avail yourself

13     of their services at the expense of the Tribunal.  And then I was told I

14     would be taken to the Tribunal and that I could observe the proceedings

15     through the glass, I could observe the witnesses against Seselj, so that

16     I could get over my nervousness, so that I could face him, because he's a

17     PhD -- he has a PhD, and, well, this was to overcome my nervousness.  I

18     was also offered the possibility of going to a third country.  I was

19     offered a lot of money.  And, finally, Rita told me, Well, think about

20     your children a little bit, and I was quite revolted by this, so I

21     couldn't sleep.  I went -- I was afraid that something would happen to my

22     children.  I had many problems with him:  I threw papers down in front of

23     her.  She returned them to me, I returned them to her.  Finally, I said,

24     Madam, I'm a free man.  I can leave the premises.  She said, Go ahead,

25     sir, but as soon as you go through the gate, I'll call your Ministry of

Page 16178

 1     the Interior and ask them to arrest you at the gate.  You will then be

 2     detained in the Central Prison, and you will wait for me to come to

 3     interview you there.  And we have premises where a spotlight will be

 4     directed at you.  I wasn't afraid of that, I wasn't afraid of that,

 5     because I knew no one could do that to me.

 6             And, finally, I got up.  I wanted to leave.  She said, You'll go

 7     with me tomorrow, go back.  You'll go to The Hague.  You'll sing the song

 8     you have to sing there.  You'll see.

 9             I was to sign what she told me.  I had to sign what she told me

10     so that I wouldn't be brought to The Hague, so that I wouldn't be accused

11     of not respecting the Court.  She threatened to bring an indictment

12     against me.  I'm not a very educated man.  I can't know whether she's in

13     a position to bring an indictment against me.  Similarly, I didn't know

14     whether she could issue a wanted request for me; that I'm not guilty,

15     that I'm not under investigation.

16             I worked in Montenegro.  She issued a wanted notice against me.

17     I returned home, and then I was told -- I spoke to Rita.  I issued a

18     wanted notice, but it was a mild one.  I would have been happy to be

19     arrested in Montenegro, in the Montenegro MUP.  60 per cent of the staff

20     are Albanians.  I'd have been beaten up there.  While The Hague Tribunal

21     was looking for me, the Albanians would arrest me.

22             I'm not financially well off.  I couldn't sue Ms. Rita, but that

23     should be done.  She has violated the regulations of the Tribunal.  I'm

24     sure she's violated the Rules of International Law as well.  And that's

25     why I'm saying that I never said that I would testify in this manner, but

Page 16179

 1     she insisted I had to sign everything that she presented me with because

 2     I was forced.  I was told I would be arrested, I would be taken to The

 3     Hague by plane.

 4             I was afraid.  There was blackmailing.  There were threats that

 5     were made.  Five or six meetings where she acted aggressively against me.

 6     I'd like to confront her, to see her face to face, to see whether this

 7     is, in fact, the truth.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have noted everything you

 9     have said.  Someone else will look into this matter.

10             However, Witness, on the 21st of September, 2007 -- the 1st of

11     October, 2007, you met members of the OTP.  You then signed a statement.

12     At that time, you told them that you had met members of the

13     Serbian Radical Party, that you had met Mr. Seselj's associates.  You

14     give their names; Pop-Lazic, Radeta, Krasic.  You said that they had

15     taken down your statement.  You also mentioned Janko Lakic, and you also

16     stated that the people who had interviewed you wanted you to discredit

17     the investigators of the OTP.  Paragraph 18 of your statement is where

18     this can be found.

19             On reading this, one has the feeling that at that time you are

20     saying that you gave your statement to Mr. Seselj's investigators,

21     actually, because you were under pressure.  What do you have to say to

22     this?

23        A.   There's quite a lot I'd like to say about that.  I am glad that

24     you've asked me this question.  There's something I have to explain, too,

25     with regard to that statement.

Page 16180

 1             I socialised with Janko Lakic from Mali Zvornik.  Because of some

 2     kind of trade in nails, I owed him some money, 3.000 convertible marks.

 3     Someone came to confiscate my house, to throw me out, me and my family

 4     from my house.  He said he would send someone to kill me in my house with

 5     a baseball bat or by beating me up, and he said that my wife and children

 6     would be thrown out of the house.  He mentioned some names, but I

 7     wouldn't want to mention these names because people are perhaps not aware

 8     of this.  Perhaps they were just trying to frighten me.

 9             I went to plead with him, ask him not to do this, to leave me

10     alone because I had two children, I can't live in the street, I didn't

11     have money for a flat or to survive.  I have an example.

12             With regard to Stevan Tadic, he took part of his bar and certain

13     auxiliary buildings, and he bribed a witness to do this.  I was also

14     afraid that he would seize my house in this manner.  So when I went to

15     see him, he said, I'll forgive you for everything, but you have to be

16     with me against the Radical Party.  You have to write down what I tell

17     you to write down.

18             I didn't think this would ever happen, but I did what I did, and

19     now we see that this has caused significant problems.

20             I wrote a letter to Vojislav Seselj, the letter that he dictated

21     to me.  I did what he asked me to do.

22             Then he mentioned this programme on B-92 Radio, and I said that I

23     wouldn't participate in this programme.  I then had a second statement

24     that was drafted for Seselj's Defence team.

25             Believe me, when children are at stake, you don't choose the

Page 16181

 1     means you have recourse to.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the commercial dispute in

 3     which you were involved with Mr. Lakic, where you were threatened, as you

 4     said, Mr. Lakic wanted you to testify for Mr. Seselj or against

 5     Mr. Seselj?

 6        A.   Against Mr. Seselj, against Mr. Seselj, and I had to accept this

 7     for the sake of my children and my family.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why was Mr. Lakic at

 9     loggerheads with Mr. Seselj; on what grounds?

10        A.   I don't know why.  He also gave a statement for Seselj's Defence

11     team.

12             Later, there was some local problems between him and some local

13     people up there.  He wrote some sort of letters for the party.  He

14     complained -- he made complaints, and finally he decided to directly

15     attack the Serbian Radical Party and Vojislav Seselj.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All of this is extremely

17     complex.  Someone will have to look into this from beginning to end and

18     in detail.

19             Witness, this will be one of my last questions before my

20     colleagues put questions to you on the merits of this case.

21             According to the documents I have, in December 2007 an article

22     was published in "Pravda" about the fact that you did not wish to lie or

23     say anything against Seselj, that you wanted to tell the truth.  And at

24     that time, Mr. Vucic, who was one of Mr. Seselj's associates at the time,

25     purportedly said that you were a Defence witness.  Mr. Vucic then said

Page 16182

 1     that he had heard this because Mrs. Natasa Kandic had purportedly told

 2     this to the press, to television.

 3             Do you remember anything about this?  And if you do, can you tell

 4     us anything about it?

 5        A.   I remember that.  I can explain this to the extent of my

 6     knowledge.  It's not just rumour; it's what I know.

 7             On the 29th of November, there was a programme on the Fox Channel

 8     in Belgrade.  It was called "Tell the People."  Aleksandar Vucic

 9     participated in it, and the director of humanitarian law, Natasa Kandic.

10     Natasa Kandic mentioned my name in the course of the programme.  She

11     said, You'll see what Nenad Jovic will tell you when he appears there.

12     I'm not going to pose any questions.  I'll just comment on this.

13             If Natasa Kandic is an employee of The Hague Tribunal, she also

14     has to be convicted for violating the Tribunal.  If not, she has to

15     give -- be given a double sentence, 14 years.  I'm not going to look for

16     her and try to prove that I'm not a criminal, but I will sue her and

17     justice will have to be done.  But let's go back to Vucic.

18             I had contact with the Serbian Radical Party by phone.  Some

19     woman answered.  I was looking for some lawyer --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

21             Sir, you are now addressing a key question, and I would like you

22     to reflect on this before you answer.

23             When you contacted the Serbian Radical Party, were you the person

24     who called them up or did they call you up?

25        A.   I, Nenad Jovic, phoned the Serbian Radical Party.  I asked for

Page 16183

 1     assistance.  If it had to do with the testimony of some other party, I

 2     wouldn't have contacted the Radical Party.  I would have phoned the party

 3     that was involved in the proceedings.  I'm not a member, with all due

 4     respect, Seselj and the other members of the party, I'm not a member of

 5     the Radical Party.  I'm a member of the Movement for -- Bogoljub

 6     Karadzic's movement, the Movement for Unified Serbia.  I don't know, we

 7     have the name somewhere.  It's no longer in existence anymore because he

 8     was expelled.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  My last question, sir:

10     You're telling us today, under oath, that you gave statements to the

11     Prosecutor because the Prosecution pressured you, and after that, you

12     then contacted Mr. Seselj's Defence to tell them that you were available

13     to testify?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have I summed up your position?

16        A.   Could you please repeat that question?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.

18             Can you tell us today, under oath, that you gave statements to

19     the OTP because you were being pressured by the OTP?  After that, you

20     contacted Mr. Seselj's Defence in order to testify on his behalf?  Does

21     the situation look like this?

22        A.   That's how things are, but the statements didn't follow on each

23     other that closely.  It's not as if I gave the Prosecution a statement on

24     one day and on the next day a statement for the Defence.  I thought about

25     the matter.  I thought about my honour, my reputation.  And if one's life

Page 16184

 1     is at stake, well, then so be it.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of your own volition, did you

 3     not at some point contact the OTP?

 4             Witness, I don't wish to trick you into anything, but according

 5     to a document I have, on the 17th of June, 2003, you, yourself, contacted

 6     the OTP in Belgrade.  You, yourself, endeavoured to do this.  This is the

 7     subject of a statement written by an OTP investigator.  What do you have

 8     to say to that?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  That was Ms. Rita's interpretation too.  I was called

10     to go to the Street of Jevrema Grujica.  I was called at home, and I went

11     there.  I then lost the information.  On the second occasion, I asked the

12     official to write down the request so that I had a justification.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, it's an either/or

14     situation.  Either you are telling us the truth or it is the OTP

15     investigator who is making a false statement, because the OTP

16     investigator states as follows in his statement.  Let me read it out:

17             "On the 17th of June, 2003, the witness voluntarily contacted the

18     OTP and let us know that they should consider him as a potential

19     witness."

20             The OTP is telling us, therefore, that it is you who contacted

21     them, and not the other way 'round, as you have just told us.

22             What do you have to say to this?

23        A.   All I can say is that against the OTP -- well, I'm not against

24     the Tribunal or the OTP.  I'm impartial.  I'm a witness for the truth,

25     but I'm against the Prosecutors who meddled in that former Yugoslavia of

Page 16185

 1     ours, and the whole Hague Tribunal and those Prosecutors over there.  The

 2     truth is what I'm telling you.

 3             I was brought an invitation, without a signature, requesting me

 4     to attend an interview in such and such a place at such and such a time.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're saying, and

 6     you're under oath, that you did not contact the OTP, you did not approach

 7     them.  It is the OTP which sent you an invitation.  What you are saying

 8     goes against the statement of 7/4/2010 which I have in my blue file.  So

 9     I can show it to Mr. Marcussen in this blue file.

10             So you say that you were served an invitation.  Now, later on,

11     did you ever call the OTP on the phone, the Belgrade Field Office, to

12     tell them what was happening?

13        A.   I didn't understand those last two words.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.

15             Did you ever, yourself, call the OTP by phone to say this is

16     happening?  Did you ever do this?  Did you ever call the OTP?

17        A.   No, I did not.  I didn't know the telephone number.  I was given

18     the address, telling me where to come.  And just like any other honest

19     citizen, I abide by the rule of law and the Constitution of the state and

20     the Tribunal, and I responded to the call.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document which

22     Mr. Marcussen knows well, on page 7, paragraph (r), it says the

23     following:

24             "On November 30th, 2007, the witness," i.e., you, "contacted

25     staff at the Sarajevo Field Office," because you heard that your name had

Page 16186

 1     been mentioned on a television programme relating to Mr. Seselj's trial.

 2     This is what is written in the statement made by the OTP.  Now, on

 3     November 30th, 2007, did you ever call the OTP?

 4        A.   But there was a mistake there.  You said "in Sarajevo."  At least

 5     that's what I heard.  That was what was interpreted, that on the 30th I

 6     was in Sarajevo because of some reporting or calling up of the Tribunal,

 7     the Prosecution.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document I have, the OTP

 9     had your cellphone number.  And as of December 7, 2007, you cut off your

10     mobile phone, and they were unable to contact you after that.  Do you

11     remember this?

12        A.   I remember that.  The 7th of December; is that what you said?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

14        A.   Yes, yes, that was after the 29th of November, when Natasa Kandic

15     disclosed to me -- or mentioned my name in the programme Fox -- or the

16     programme called "Tell the People" on television.  Now, after they told

17     me to bring in my passport for a visa, I was never told, Listen here,

18     you're going to be a witness.  I was told that the trial would never come

19     about.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me finish this off.  Of

21     course, I could ask you questions for hours on end, but let me put to you

22     one last question.

23             It seems that in November 2007, you were approached by a person

24     called Novak Savic, and this Novak Savic would be -- was probably a

25     member of Mr. Seselj's Defence team, and he told you that you should go

Page 16187

 1     to Dubai, where the son of the fugitive Karadzic was residing.  The son's

 2     name is Luka.  Do you remember this?

 3        A.   Novak Savic did his best -- since Novak Savic and I are good

 4     friends, he did his best to find me a job, because I was left jobless,

 5     and no money, either, and I can only be grateful to him and to apologise

 6     that his name isn't mentioned in that context in the statement.  It was a

 7     question of interpreters.  Interpreters or translators very often get

 8     things wrong.  "Chetnik," well, "Chetnik," you can say Chetnik is my son,

 9     who is 11 years old, because Chetniks, they should be Serbs.  Well,

10     people talking about that should be impartial.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

12     you're saying that Mr. Savic offered you a job.  Is that it?

13        A.   Yes, I was looking for a job.  I had no money.  I was working in

14     Belgrade with some thieves who never paid me.  They didn't pay me for six

15     months.  So I said, Find me a job, please, because he was a friend of

16     mine, you see.  Novak Savic is a friend of mine.  He moves around a lot,

17     so I asked him to see what he could do.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is Mr. Savic a member of the

19     Serbian Radical Party?

20        A.   What is he?  Is he a member of the Serbian Radical Party; is that

21     what you asked me?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my question.

23        A.   I think he is.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now give the floor to my

25     fellow Judges, because time is running.  I'm sure my fellow Judges will

Page 16188

 1     have questions on the merits of the case.

 2             Judge Harhoff will start.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 4             Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 5        A.   Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Jovic, I'm going to put some questions to you

 7     in relation to the statements that you have offered to the Prosecution,

 8     simply for the purpose of trying to find out what happened at the time in

 9     the former Yugoslavia.

10             You have explained to the Prosecution that you volunteered as a

11     member of first the Chetnik Movement and subsequently to the Serbian

12     Radical Party, and that the result of this was that you were suggested as

13     a volunteer to take part in the armed conflict in order to support the

14     interests of the Serbian nation, and eventually you were sent off to the

15     front-line at several locations.

16             My first question to you, Mr. Jovic, is whether you were offered

17     any military training, including the use of weapons and military tactics,

18     while you were preparing for being dispatched to the front-line.  Can you

19     explain to us the background of your training?

20        A.   Before I give you an answer, I have to say, with all due respect,

21     that you made a mistake.  You read something out that might have been

22     written erroneously.

23             I wasn't chosen or forced or elected, just pulled out to go to

24     the front.  I was a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement when the war

25     broke out in the Republic of Croatia.  I went there of my own free will

Page 16189

 1     because I have uncles there and relatives there.  I don't want to state

 2     their names, to avoid making problems for them.  But, anyway, I went of

 3     my own free will.  And before I left, we did not have any training.  We

 4     did not have any training, but we had to bring in our military booklet,

 5     saying that we had done our military service.  And in that booklet, as a

 6     regular thing, you would see whether somebody was ill, suffered from

 7     something, had served the army, and so on.  And then there would be an

 8     interview.  We would talk to someone from the Crisis Staff to see what

 9     our mental state was and things like that.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  And how long a time was it since you

11     had completed your military service?

12        A.   I started my military service in 1976 and completed it in 1978.

13     So in calender terms, it spanned three years, although the national

14     service was 15 months, but I went in November and completed it in

15     February 1978.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  But since the time you completed your

17     military service and until 1991, there would have passed a substantial

18     number of years, I suppose.

19        A.   Well, once you learn to swim, you never forget that, and it's the

20     same thing.  If you undergo 15 months of training and carry a rifle, then

21     you would be able to do it again.  I would be able to carry the same

22     rifle I did in 1976.  You can't be that forgetful and forget something

23     that is the most important thing in your life, which is the defence of

24     your homeland.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well enough.  Mr. Jovic, you then explained to

Page 16190

 1     the Prosecution that after your first deployment to the front-line, you

 2     decided, and I think it was in August 1991, that you no longer wanted to

 3     serve as a member of the SRS volunteer unit.  Can you explain to us why

 4     you decided to leave?

 5        A.   I didn't decide to leave the unit I was in, if it is the unit in

 6     the village of Tenja, where we were in 1991, if that's what you mean.  My

 7     wife, she is deceased, but she called me to say that our child was ill.

 8     I had a daughter.  She was, I think, four or five years old at the time.

 9     And I asked my commander, the commander of the Territorial Defence, to

10     give me permission to leave the war zone to visit my child.  I was given

11     permission.  I went home.  However, it turned out that my wife was just

12     very afraid for me and for my life and just wanted me home, and used that

13     as a pretext.  She was afraid for my life.  And so I returned two or

14     three days later.  I don't remember exactly.  I went back to the village

15     of Tenja, but I didn't find my unit there anymore.  I had to report to

16     the defence commander, Jovo Rebraca, to say that I was back, and he told

17     me, Your unit has been relocated for strategic reasons and moved to

18     another place.  Do you wish to stay here or do you want to follow your

19     unit and go where they are?

20             Now, I thought it was dangerous for me to pass through this war

21     area, and I had got to know the locals well, so I said that I would

22     prefer to stay on, and they took me on.  So at my own responsibility,

23     without reporting to anybody, I remained in the village of Tenja, and I

24     don't know where the others were and where they went to.  I no longer met

25     them.

Page 16191

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did Mr. Rebraca tell you why the SRS unit had

 2     left Tenja?

 3        A.   Yes, he did.  He said that it was for strategic reasons that they

 4     were being redeployed, moved to another area.  For strategic reasons, he

 5     said, and he was the commander.  So I didn't have an insight into the

 6     situation on the ground.  He told me.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  You then went on to explain that at a

 8     later point in time, you were dispatched to somewhere in Bosnia.  And you

 9     also told us or told the Prosecution that the transportation was arranged

10     through the hydroelectric plants in the area, which provided drivers and

11     some vehicles.  Can you clarify the details of the transportation to this

12     new place?

13        A.   I remember it well.  If it was anything false -- well, actually,

14     you didn't ask the full question.  It was a transport of volunteers to

15     the village of Darda.  Now, since that's the truth, then I can tell you

16     about it.  If it wasn't the truth, I wouldn't be telling you about it.

17             So we have the village of Darda.  Well, when I was in Tenja and

18     came back home from Tenja, Janko Lakic came to see me and asked me

19     whether I would like to go to the village of Darda, in Baranja, because I

20     was a tried-and-tested fighter already, and to take a group with me, a

21     group of volunteers; to test their metel, young guys, they like to do

22     that.  And I said I did want to go, but I didn't want to be the command

23     or responsible for anybody's life.  And he said the unit belonging to the

24     MUP of Republika Srpska -- no, not Republika Srpska, the former

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's Republika Srpska now.  Anyway, that we should

Page 16192

 1     go through them.  I didn't mind who I went through.  I was used to war,

 2     so I could go.

 3             I would have to mention a name here.  Should we go into private

 4     session or should I keep quiet?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. Harhoff.  You said

 6     "to Bosnia."  This was Baranja.  Baranja is in the Republika Srpska

 7     Krajina, and we're dealing with 1991 there, whereas Bosnia, the war was

 8     from April 1992, in Bosnia.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for pointing this out.  Indeed, I was

10     mistaken.  Baranja is in Croatia.  I'm aware of that.

11             But my question was really a different one, and this is why I

12     don't think it's necessary to go into private session, Mr. Jovic.  My

13     question was:  Who organised the transportation?  Was that the

14     hydroelectric plant that you mentioned to the Prosecution?

15        A.   No.  The transportation was organised and probably paid for by

16     the MUP or the junior commander, the then MUP commander in Zvornik, so

17     across in Bosnia.  They just used their buses.  They were minibuses; not

18     many people.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But how come that the MUP would dispose over the

20     buses belonging to a private company?

21        A.   Well, they would rent them out.  If I'm a private person, I can

22     rent out 10 buses if I have somebody to drive, and an institution like

23     the MUP and the MUP commander could do that.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Okay.  So I understand that the transportation

25     was provided for by the MUP and that the MUP had rented buses from the

Page 16193

 1     hydroelectric plant.  Is that your testimony?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely.  That's it, precisely, and the unit belonged to

 3     the MUP.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  You then go on to mention an episode

 5     in November, at the end of November 1991, a week before you left Baranja.

 6     And you mention an episode in which Rade Kostic approached you and asked

 7     you to become a member of the police in Darda.  And from what I

 8     understood from your statements, you seem to indicate that Mr. Kostic was

 9     asking the group that you were with if they wanted to give up their

10     Chetnik appearance and become members of the police, or whether they

11     wanted to stay as Chetniks.  And I was left with the impression that

12     somehow Mr. Kostic was not very pleased with the volunteers and so would

13     not be willing to admit anyone who insisted on appearing as a Chetnik

14     into the police force.  Can you clarify these events?  In other words, is

15     it correct --

16        A.   Yes, I can clarify.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please do.

18        A.   I can clarify that.

19             Mr. Kostic said that anybody who wanted to remain in the police

20     force, because we were already in police uniform and we acted as

21     policemen, we were working as policeman.  And what you said about giving

22     up the Chetnik appearance, we were all policemen in the first place.  We

23     were neat, clean-shaven, our hair was cut properly, because we belonged

24     to the MUP.  So there was no other appearance, no other markings or

25     personal traits.  We looked like the MUP.

Page 16194

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But why then would Mr. Kostic ask you to take off

 2     Chetnik symbols and insignia from the uniforms, and why would he insist

 3     that only those who were willing to give up these appearances could stay

 4     in the MUP?

 5        A.   Well, that was the interpretation of the person that wrote that

 6     down.  On oath, I claim that we did not have any appearance of that kind.

 7     I am proud of having the Chetnik symbols and insignia, but at the time we

 8     were without that.  We were clean-shaven, our hair was neatly cut, we

 9     wore MUP uniforms, and the whole village of Darda can testify to that.

10     They're all over Serbia now.  You can find them in all the villages.

11     But, anyway, they would be happy to testify to that.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So if I understand you correctly, Mr. Kostic

13     would not have made any special reference to his unwillingness to include

14     Chetniks into the police force; is that correct?

15        A.   Where do you see Chetniks?  I do apologise for having to ask you

16     that, but where do you see Chetniks?  We didn't come as Chetniks, we

17     didn't look like Chetniks.  They dressed us in police uniforms, with

18     police insignia.  We belonged to the MUP of Krajina; not the MUP of

19     Serbia, but the MUP of Krajina.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  While you were in Darda, and while

21     you were serving there as a police -- as a member of the MUP, who paid

22     you for your services?

23        A.   We were volunteers.  Nobody paid us.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I suppose you would have to live on something.

25     Didn't you receive any payment from either the party or the MUP or the TO

Page 16195

 1     or somebody else?

 2        A.   No, no.  As volunteers, we were given accommodation and food, and

 3     nothing more than that.  And the party -- well, let me mention that we

 4     had nothing to do with the Radical Party, or the Democratic Party, or any

 5     other party, for that matter, in Serbia while we were over there.  So I

 6     state with full responsibility that that was how it was.  I know what

 7     happened, I know what the truth was, and I am a witness here to tell the

 8     truth.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And later on, did you receive any payment from

10     the SDS Party?

11        A.   I, personally, later on did, but -- well, only I, personally, I,

12     Nenad Jovic, personally, went with the commander -- with the police

13     commander.  Well, I was there all the time.  I was in the security

14     detail.  And from the SDS, I received remuneration in the form of

15     assistance, because I wasn't employed anywhere and I had to be present

16     over there for a time.  Perhaps for two months, not even two months;

17     less.  But as a policeman, as a reservist, police reservist.  That was on

18     the ready there.  Because the MUP was divided, the chief was a Muslim,

19     the commander was a Serb, and you couldn't receive a salary from them

20     directly.  You couldn't tell a Muslim, Now you have to pay this man for

21     helping us out.  It went through the party, so that I had some financial

22     assistance, and so that I can have it certified and talk about it.  Maybe

23     I shouldn't, but that's how it was.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were the police reservists not paid by the MUP

25     while they were on service -- while they were in service, when they were

Page 16196

 1     called up from the reserve ranks?

 2        A.   The reservists were, but I was not listed as -- well, the chief

 3     was a Muslim, as I said, so to bring me in the reserve police force, it

 4     was very difficult and not an opportune thing to do, because I was from

 5     Serbia.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But you told us just a minute ago that you were a

 7     police reservist, so why wouldn't you be paid, as anybody else, by the

 8     MUP?

 9        A.   I said a police reservist so that you should not think that I was

10     an active-duty policeman working in Zvornik.  By agreement with the chief

11     of the police station, I was his personal security detail.  I drove him

12     around.  If necessary, I worked in civilian clothes, checking around

13     town, who was purchasing weapons, selling weapons.  I would collect

14     information and went to the Serb Command, because there was a lot of

15     weapons trafficking, the Muslims -- weapons.  Well, so did the Serbs,

16     but --

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Jovic, you have told us that you were a

18     police reservist.  You have also confirmed that police reservists were

19     paid by the MUP for the time they were in active service.  Yet you also

20     explain to us that you received payment from the SDS Party.  So I'm left

21     with an impression that there was a confusion of the authority vested in

22     the MUP and the authority vested in the political party.  Or did you

23     serve two masters, simply?

24        A.   Well, you're right.  But you're not right when you say that I

25     said that I, as a reservist, received a salary.  I didn't receive such a

Page 16197

 1     salary from the MUP.  I was with the commander.  I acted as his escort.

 2     I have already explained that.  If you like, I'll repeat it.  It's not

 3     difficult for me.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You do not need to repeat, and I did understand

 5     that you were not paid by the MUP, but you were occasionally paid by the

 6     SDS while you were serving as a police reservist, and this is what

 7     confuses me.  And my conclusion is that you probably were serving two

 8     masters, and this is what I would like you to comment on.

 9        A.   I don't understand how I was serving two masters.  If I've

10     understood you correctly, you said that I was serving two masters; is

11     that right?

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That was my question.  And if I --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which two masters --

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on.  Let me finish my question with the

15     witness and then you can intervene.

16             You were working or functioning as a police reservist, and yet

17     you were paid by the SDS.  How does this fit together?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I comment on the

19     interpretation, Mr. Harhoff?  The interpretation is not correct.

20             You said, according to the transcript in English, "serving two

21     masters."  This can be interpreted into the Serbian language as "you were

22     serving two owners or employers."  An employer is one thing, and a master

23     is something else.  But the interpreter doesn't know the Serbian

24     language, and that is why we have a problem.  If you had told the witness

25     "two proprietors" or "two employers," then he would have known what you

Page 16198

 1     meant.  When you said "two masters," well, that confuses the witness.  So

 2     the interpreter can laugh as much as she likes, but she doesn't know the

 3     Serbian language.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I am not a Serbian native speaker, so I have no

 5     idea about the correct translation or interpretation of what I told you.

 6             But with Mr. Seselj's comments, Mr. Jovic, are you able to answer

 7     my question?  My question relates to the fact that you were working as a

 8     police reservist and yet paid by someone else than the MUP.

 9        A.   Yes, but at the time I wasn't mobilised as a reserve policeman.

10     I was working by escorting or, rather, providing security to the

11     commander, at his personal request.  I wasn't asked to come and work as a

12     reserve policeman.  It was a personal request.  You understand there was

13     a private agreement, Will you come, work with me.  I had one boss, so

14     that's what confused me.  That's why I was unable to answer that

15     question.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now I am even more confused, because now you tell

17     us that you weren't really a police reservist, although you were wearing

18     a police uniform, but you were working more or less on a private basis as

19     a bodyguard, I understand, and yet still paid by the SDS.

20        A.   We don't understand each other.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Probably not.  I am asking you to explain to us

22     how it came that you were wearing a police uniform, but you were not

23     actually working as a police reservist, but as a bodyguard to a police

24     chief, and you were paid by the SDS.  How do these three functions fit

25     together?

Page 16199

 1        A.   Your Honours, it's very easy to explain this.

 2             I worked in the civilian sector --

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Jovic, can I interrupt you, because I want to

 4     make sure that you do not understand my questions as in any way trying to

 5     lead you into a trap or something.  That is certainly not my intention.

 6     The only information that I'm looking for is what the relations were

 7     between the MUP and the political parties, and the authority that

 8     apparently a police commander would have to employ someone more or less

 9     on a private basis to protect him.

10        A.   Well, naturally, war was imminent.  The man didn't feel safe.

11     I'd spent a lengthy period of time at the front, and he wanted to have

12     someone by his side who would be able to protect him if there was an

13     attack, because fire would be opened in villages, there would be bursts

14     of fires at night, and so on and so forth.  So this was probably the

15     reason.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to have a break now,

17     and we shall resume later on.  The Registrar has turned around several

18     times and looked at me to indicate this to me.

19             We are going to have a 20-minute break.  Please have a good rest,

20     and we shall meet against in 20 minutes' time.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

24             I would like to state for the record that the first few minutes

25     of today's hearing were in open session and not in closed session.

Page 16200

 1             Judge Harhoff will continue putting his questions now.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As the Registrar has asked me

 4     to do, after these two minutes that were in open session, we then moved

 5     into closed session.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make a brief comment

 7     again, Mr. President.

 8             Before the end of the first session, you said that the Registrar

 9     was telling you that the time was up and that we had to have a break, and

10     the interpreter said the witness gave you a sign indicating that it was

11     time for a break.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for having specified

13     this.  I did not understand that the witness told us that it was time to

14     have a break.  Thank you.

15             Anyway, Witness, we shall continue.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

17             I think we, in the interests of time, should move on to something

18     else.

19             You mentioned to the Prosecution that during the attack on

20     Zvornik, there were some 40 men participating under the command of Arkan,

21     and you also said that there were some 30 to 40 men under the command of

22     a gentleman called Zuco.  Do you recall this?

23        A.   Yes, and I'm certain I didn't say that about Zuco, because I

24     heard about Zuco for the first time after the liberation of the town of

25     Kula, and that was 14 or 15 days later.  I don't know the exact date.

Page 16201

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Do you know if any of these 30 to 40

 2     Chetniks, who you said took part in the attack on Zvornik, were SRS

 3     volunteers, and was Zuco a member of the SRS?

 4        A.   First of all, I didn't say they were Chetniks.  And, secondly,

 5     I've already said that Zuco is someone I didn't even know at the time.  I

 6     hadn't heard of him, not until the liberation of the town of Kula, which

 7     is part of Zvornik.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  To be more direct, then, Mr. Jovic, let me ask

 9     you directly.  Did any of the SRS volunteers, or Seselj's men, as they

10     came to be known, take part in the attack on Zvornik?  Do you know that?

11        A.   I don't know whether they participated.  But in the attack, there

12     were people wearing cockade hats.  There were some people from Zvornik

13     who'd been driven out over the barricades, and some people from Karakaj,

14     near Zvornik.  I knew some of them personally.  They were just across the

15     Drina River.  I know half of Zvornik even now.  There was no one from

16     outside, apart from Arkan's unit and myself, who turned up then.  Then

17     there was the Serbian police.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, we have that in your statement.  But just to

19     conclude what you just said on the Chetniks in the attack, or the persons

20     wearing cockades in the attack on Zvornik, you don't know if any of these

21     were members of the SRS and you don't know whether they were under the

22     command of Mr. Zuco; is that correct?

23        A.   I don't know.  And I know for sure that I didn't see Zuco or hear

24     about him until the operation to liberate Kula, which is part of the town

25     of Zvornik.  When Zvornik was liberated, well, that didn't mean that the

Page 16202

 1     entire area was liberated.  Kula is adjacent to Zvornik, and that's where

 2     that place was under threat.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Let's just for a second have a look

 4     at the liberation of Kula.  Did you then learn or did you receive any

 5     information of whether Mr. Zuco had any relationship with the SRS?

 6        A.   What I heard of Zuco -- about Zuco after the liberation of the

 7     town of Kula, I knew that they belonged to some independent unit.  I

 8     didn't see such volunteers, though, but perhaps they were in a different

 9     position on the other side, somewhere else.  But they weren't in the

10     town.  I never heard that Zuco was a member of the SRS.  Perhaps I'm

11     mistaken, but I never heard about that, because I didn't even know Zuco

12     at the time.  If he were a close friend of mine, I would know.  I would

13     say, yes, he was, or, no, he wasn't.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  So can we conclude that in your

15     testimony, you did not know whether Zuco or any of his men had anything

16     to do with the SRS or with Seselj?  Is that your testimony?

17        A.   The only conclusion I can draw is that Zuco wasn't a member of

18     the Serbian Radical Party, because there were colleagues who worked at

19     the bridge, and I heard from them that after the fall of Kula, the SRS

20     volunteers all withdrew.  But Zuco remained, and I know him from that

21     time.  If he had been a volunteer of the SRS, he would have had to leave

22     with his men, and some of his individual combatants would certainly have

23     been punished.  We were controlled.  Zoran Rankic came to see us to see

24     what discipline was like, to see whether we obeyed orders, to ensure that

25     we weren't causing the local inhabitants any problems.  You probably know

Page 16203

 1     what happened with Zuco later.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We do.  Thank you very much.

 3             Let's move forward to your reference to the Chetniks protecting

 4     some of the bridges in Zvornik.  And I think you explained to the

 5     Prosecution that the Chetniks who were manning the posts at the bridges

 6     were searching people, not only Muslims, but also Serbs, and that they

 7     were stealing, and for that reason they were expelled shortly after or

 8     removed from those check-points.  Can you clarify why the Chetniks who

 9     were securing the bridges were removed from that duty?

10        A.   Those people weren't Chetniks, sir.  There were two groups of

11     men.  There was one group that was securing the bridges.  They were

12     flexible with regard to the citizens, at least in that town, because we

13     were there, the police were there with them.  And later there was some

14     sort of unofficial group.  They had come there of their own accord.  They

15     were there for a certain number of days, and they were driven away by

16     Commander Panic.  Rumours were that they would strip women, but this

17     group was formed of vagrants from various villages.  It wasn't Zvornik or

18     other group.  One -- some was from Zvornik, another from Krupa, they were

19     perhaps from various places.  I didn't see them and I can't say anything

20     about them.  I wasn't involved in the attack on Kula.  I was involved in

21     the attack -- or, rather, I was on leave.  I went to Novi Sad and stayed

22     there with my relative.  I was there for a week so I can't really say.

23     I'm not in a position to do so.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We'll get to Kula in just a second.

25             Can I just conclude the question that I have on Zvornik by asking

Page 16204

 1     you:  Who, to your knowledge, was leading the attack on Zvornik; do you

 2     know?

 3        A.   The Crisis Staff from Zvornik led the attack on Zvornik.  At the

 4     time, the Republika Srpska wasn't in existence, but the Crisis Staff of

 5     Serbs from Zvornik was involved.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And who was the operational commander?

 7        A.   I don't know who the operational commander was.  There was the

 8     Crisis Staff commander.  Who else would there have been?

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You seem to have indicated in your statements to

10     the Prosecution that the attack was led by Arkan, as the commander, and

11     this was just a question to confirm whether you stood by this.

12             Let's move, then, to Kula, and that will be my final questions,

13     because you said that when finally the attack on Kula was about to begin,

14     you had noticed that the way in which the attack was organised was such

15     that literally all or at least most of the Muslim inhabitants in Kula

16     would be killed, or the non-Serb -- sorry, the non-Serb inhabitants in

17     Kula would be killed, and for that reason, you refused to take part.  Can

18     you explain the events surrounding the attack on Kula?

19        A.   Yes, I can explain the events, although I didn't participate in

20     the operation to liberate the town.

21             I call this an operation to liberate part of Zvornik because the

22     Muslims, prior to the war, used the media, the newspapers, the

23     television, to boast that they had Stigler [phoen] missiles, they were

24     armed, that they had certain weapons at their disposal, so a competent

25     team prepared to go there, naturally.  But I was on leave.  I couldn't go

Page 16205

 1     there for various reasons, because I was tired, I'd been on duty 24 hours

 2     a day in town, so I borrowed a colleague's car and went to Novi Sad to

 3     stay with my relative, my sister-in-law.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So if I understand you, you did not refrain from

 5     taking part in the attack on Kula because of any concerns for the

 6     civilian population in Kula; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, an honourable combatant doesn't abuse civilians, doesn't

 8     kill civilians, but I was quite simply burnt out.  I was no longer

 9     capable of participating in something like that.  Because people were on

10     duty on bridges, in streets, we worked around the clock.  I said I had to

11     leave.  I said that my child was ill.  I managed to get out of that

12     situation, and I left so that I could have a rest.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you have information, actually, about the way

14     in which the attack on Kula was organised, and did that information

15     suggest that ultimately the non-Serb civilian population in Kula would be

16     killed, or most of them, at least?

17        A.   I didn't have any such information because I wasn't in the

18     Crisis Staff Command.  Secondly, I didn't know how many people would be

19     killed.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

21     questions.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I just have a follow-up

23     question, in line with the question put by my colleague, which lies at

24     the heart of the issue at stake here.  As you know, we must try

25     Mr. Seselj on the basis of what has happened in Zvornik.  Your testimony

Page 16206

 1     is valuable to us, because I notice that when you gave a statement on the

 2     18th and 19th of October, 2006, in paragraph 92 of this statement - you

 3     don't need to look at it - you explained that during the attack on

 4     Zvornik, there were 40 of Arkan's men, 15 Serbian policemen, and 50

 5     Chetniks belonging to Seselj.  You said that this group was made up of

 6     100 to 120 people.  This sentence lies heavily on the accused, because

 7     according to what you said at the time, there was something like 50

 8     Chetniks belonging to Seselj in Zvornik.

 9             What do you have to say to this today?

10        A.   That's a matter of interpretation or of mistranslation.  I said

11     quite clearly there were about 40 of Arkan's men, about 15 or 16 -- I

12     don't know the exact number.  Fifteen or 16 policemen.  Everyone else was

13     from Zvornik and from Karakaj, a suburb of Zvornik.  They had cockades on

14     their heads.  If we had unloaded a lorry of cockades, they would have

15     disappeared in a day.  And no one survived Tito's Communist regime, no

16     one touched him, so why talk about Chetnik insignia?  On the state flag

17     used at present, we have the Nemanjic coat of arms, so it means that the

18     president, Mr. Tadic, is a Chetnik.  Does it?  I don't know, we're all

19     Chetniks now in the eyes of certain individuals.  But I know that Tadic

20     is not a Chetnik.  That's quite certain.  You can't judge people on the

21     basis of the fact that they put a cockade on their heads.

22             I didn't see any of Seselj's men.  I wasn't aware of them turning

23     up or leaving.  But according to some of the statements made by

24     Mr. Seselj here before this Tribunal, I came to understand that he had a

25     group of his own.  As to where it was active, in which territory, I don't

Page 16207

 1     know.  Someone else must know about that, and someone else must be in a

 2     position to inform you of the fact.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             My fellow Judge, Ms. Lattanzi, has half an hour for questions.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise, but

 6     I think we have to backtrack somehow and go back to the time when you

 7     were recruited within the Serbian Chetnik Movement in 1990.

 8             I would like to know, regarding this period of time, who exactly

 9     were the leaders of this movement.

10        A.   The leader of that movement was Janko Lakic, at a local level in

11     the Mali Zvornik municipality.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did he hail from Serbia?

13        A.   He originated from Republika Srpska, but -- well, he lived in

14     Serbia for 10 or 12 years.  He has an apartment there by the stadium.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you give us the year or

16     years when he lived in Serbia?  I'd like to know when he lived in Serbia.

17        A.   Well, I don't know.  I didn't really know him before 1990, when

18     the Serbian Chetnik Movement was -- there was this promotional ceremony

19     in Mali Zvornik of the movement.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In 1990, he lived in Serbia, is

21     that it, or did he live in Zvornik?

22        A.   In Serbia, I think.  100 per cent, I know.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mrs. Lattanzi, Mali Zvornik is in

24     Serbia, and Zvornik is in Republika Srpska, separated by the Drina River.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So he lived in Zvornik.  What

Page 16208

 1     about Despotovic; who was it?  Did he live in Mali Zvornik or did he live

 2     in Zvornik?

 3        A.   He lived in Mali Zvornik.  His wife worked --

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  What about

 5     Despotovic, Aleksandar Despotovic?  Who was he?

 6        A.   Despotovic is -- was born in Serbia, and he lived in Serbia, and

 7     he stills lives in Serbia, just like me.  I was born in Serbia and I live

 8     in Serbia.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What role did he play within the

10     Serbian Chetnik Movement in 1990?

11        A.   Well, something like me, similar to me.  I was the deputy of some

12     president, or vice-president, or whatever.

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Who did you obtain the

14     certificate for recruitment within the Serbian Chetnik Movement from?

15        A.   From Janko Lakic.  I received a certificate at the end of April

16     or the beginning of May - I'm not quite sure - but on a voluntary basis,

17     because I asked them, because those young guys were ready to fight

18     against the five-pointed star of Milosevic and Communism.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was Mr. Seselj a leader of the

20     Serbian Chetnik Movement?

21        A.   Mr. Seselj was most probably -- yes, he was the leader of the

22     Chetnik Movement, and he held a promotional rally to promote his

23     movement.  That was held in Zvornik at the end of April or beginning of

24     May - I'm not quite sure - in the Dom Kulture, the cultural centre

25     building.  Because I'm a local of Mali Zvornik, I could tell you the

Page 16209

 1     names of 300 people who attended.  I wasn't able to go in myself, because

 2     there was a crowd.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're talking about

 4     1990; right?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right, 1990, because you asked me when I became a

 6     member, and I became a member the morning after --

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.  And after?

 8        A.   The morning after the rally.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What?  After having heard

10     Mr. Seselj, maybe?

11        A.   I wasn't able to enter the hall because there were too many

12     people.  Lots of people were interested.  So I had to stand outside, and

13     I saw how the Muslims set up a cordon at the entrance door, waiting for

14     the Serbs to come out.  So I couldn't hear what Seselj was saying inside

15     because there was a lot of noise when this promotional rally of the

16     Serbian Chetnik Movement was going on.  And as the people were coming out

17     of the building, the Muslims beat them, hit them, kicked them, and the

18     police cordon didn't do anything to stop them.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Nobody told you

20     what Mr. Seselj had said, what he talked about?

21        A.   Well, of course they did.  The local Muslims told me, too, who

22     went inside to hear what he was saying; not to become a member, but they

23     said, We want to hear everybody's platform and what they have to say, and

24     then we can choose which party we want to belong to.  I have a lot of

25     Muslim friends in Zvornik, and I still have friends like that that come

Page 16210

 1     home, to my home.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were the Muslims happy with

 3     Mr. Seselj's speech?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know whether they were happy with his speech or

 5     not.  A brawl broke out.  Five hundred people clashed.  They destroyed a

 6     bus.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was there a fight?  Do you know

 8     what was the reason for the fight?

 9        A.   Because the Muslims, three days before that, were preparing --

10     were collecting stones up on their balconies.  Regardless of Seselj was

11     going to say, the important thing was to hit him with stones.  And a Serb

12     told me that, well, the Muslim had cocked a pistol and wanted to shoot,

13     and the Serbs stopped him from doing that.  But the police was there in

14     civilian clothes, and Motorolas, and they just said, Don't be afraid,

15     this rally has been announced -- was announced in advance.  And so that

16     was it.  And in the morning, I went to find Janko Lakic because I wanted

17     to become a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement the next day, because

18     the young guys were brave, they were courageous.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But since you decided to join,

20     you must have known that they had a platform, a programme, or did you

21     just join because you felt sympathy towards this movement without really

22     knowing what their platform was all about?  And here I'm talking about

23     the Serbian Chetnik Movement.  Maybe the platform of the programme had

24     been spelled out by Mr. Seselj during this rally.

25        A.   I didn't hear what he said at the rally, but I knew that they had

Page 16211

 1     the courage to sing at a rally in Belgrade, to sing songs against the

 2     five-pointed star of Communism and to shout slogans.  So I liked people

 3     who had the guts to do something like that.  But the police were there,

 4     and they said, We're doing our job, and they said, We're doing our job.

 5     We want to take down the five-pointed star, we want to topple the regime.

 6     We don't want to live in darkness anymore.  So that was the beginning of

 7     it all.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you know what was the

 9     relationship at the time between Seselj and Milosevic?

10        A.   Of course I knew.  Well, at that time, Seselj was arrested every

11     other day.  Well, not literally every other day.  I use that expression.

12     But he would be arrested from time to time, whether in Kragujevac, or

13     Belgrade, or wherever.  So the situation was highly unfavorable, as far

14     as Mr. Seselj was concerned.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And this relationship was always

16     bad?

17        A.   Well, of course, yes.  Maybe something changed when the bombings

18     started and when a national salvation government came into power.  They

19     might have co-operated in setting up a defence, so there might have been

20     some agreement at that level.  But, otherwise, during the war from 1991

21     to 1995 and onwards, their relationship was extremely bad.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, we'll now move on to

23     the attempt in 1991 --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I have a

25     follow-up question.  It's extremely important.

Page 16212

 1             Judge Lattanzi asked you a number of questions on this rally held

 2     in the area of Mali Zvornik, and you said that it was held in 1990.  You

 3     are aware of what happened when Zvornik was attacked in 1992, so I'd like

 4     to know whether, as far as you know, Mr. Seselj had come to Zvornik or

 5     Mali Zvornik prior to the attack on Zvornik in order to make a speech,

 6     because this is what the Prosecution is stating in its indictment and in

 7     its pre-trial brief.  And any Judge like me, French, Italian, or Dane,

 8     must check these allegations made by the Prosecution as well as check

 9     allegations made by the Defence, so I would like to know, as far as you

10     know, whether a rally would have been held by Mr. Seselj just a few days

11     before Zvornik was attacked.

12        A.   I'll answer your question, but you've asked me a series of

13     questions, in actual fact.  I tend to forget, due to my illness, so I'll

14     answer the last question and then move backwards.

15             Now, Vojislav Seselj, in Mali Zvornik, in Serbia, in 1990, 1990,

16     held a promotional rally of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.  The Serbian

17     Radical Party didn't exist at the time, so you can't have a witness

18     saying that that was so.  Well, you can have a witness like that, but

19     that would be a false witness.  The witness would be lying.  And in SUP,

20     the party was registered, and you can check that out.  You're the Judges.

21     You can find when the rally was registered.  There was permission for the

22     rally to be held, this promotional rally.  And they provided police

23     security, and the police did nothing.  We should have beat them up, but

24     Vojislav Seselj said, Don't touch the police, and we listened to him.

25     Otherwise, we should have.

Page 16213

 1             Now, could you repeat your question?  You asked me three

 2     questions, and I've answered the latter one, but could you repeat the

 3     others?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I might have been a bit

 5     lengthy, but I'd like to know the following, and it's absolutely

 6     essential.  I would like to know whether Mr. Seselj held a rally in

 7     Mali Zvornik in 1992, just a few days before the attack on Zvornik.

 8        A.   Seselj -- Vojislav Seselj held a rally -- and let me repeat

 9     again.  I'm under oath here.  I know the town.  I was born there, I grew

10     up there, so I know everything about the town.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute.  The

12     Presiding Judge is asking you a question about 1992, not about 1990.

13        A.   Judge, please --

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] 1990, and now we're moving on to

15     1992.  The Presiding Judge would like to know whether a rally was held in

16     Mali Zvornik in 1992 or whether Mr. Seselj visited the area or something

17     of the kind in the spring of 1992.

18        A.   In 1992, even if the rally was held, I don't know whether -- I

19     wasn't there, but you couldn't have had Muslims there.  Who could have

20     crossed the bridge in 1992 to fight in Serbia and collect up stones?

21     There were 2.000 people there, both Serbs and Muslims.  I assume that's

22     common knowledge.  It was war in 1992.  And in the pre-war times, where

23     could they go when everybody was armed?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

25     answer.

Page 16214

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But may I be allowed to add

 2     something?  We're back to the time when people were trying to get you to

 3     join the Croatian front when you were a member of the Serbian Chetnik

 4     Movement.  You left by bus.  There were 30 volunteers on the bus coming

 5     from Valjevo and 20 volunteers from Belgrade.  Do you remember this?

 6        A.   Madame Judge, I do remember that, but you're reading something

 7     that's not true.  Who could have forced me to go to the front?  Only the

 8     Army of Yugoslavia, and no party.  I know what military power and

 9     military command means.  It's the General Staff of Yugoslavia, that's

10     what it is.  So I went to the front as a volunteer through the Radical

11     Party because of my relatives living in what is today Croatia, so I went

12     as a volunteer without orders from anybody.  I joined up the Serbian

13     Radical Party.  Nobody forced me to join up and to sign the membership

14     form.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me say that I never

16     mentioned any obligation that would have been imposed on you.  All I said

17     is that obviously --

18        A.   That's the interpretation I received.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

20     continues] ... to get you to go to the Croatian front among other

21     volunteers.  I never said that you were obliged to do this, that anyone

22     forced you to do this.  But the bus was full of volunteers, some coming

23     from Belgrade and others, according to what you say, from Valjevo.  Where

24     is Valjevo, where is it?  Is it in Serbia?  Where is it located?

25        A.   Madame Judge, let me just explain something to you.  The

Page 16215

 1     interpretation I received was "how were you forced," "how did they force

 2     you," and that's why, with all due respect, I have to say, and I

 3     apologise for that, but nobody can force me to do anything, let alone

 4     some local group or board of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.  We --

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that even when I

 6     look at the English transcript, it's obvious that I never talked about

 7     any obligation that you might have had.  But let's put this aside and

 8     return to these volunteers, 20 hailing from Belgrade and 30 from Valjevo.

 9             Where is Valjevo?

10        A.   Valjevo, in relation to Mali Zvornik, do you want me to tell you

11     that?  With respect to my place, it's 40 or 50 kilometres to the right,

12     towards -- well, the Drina River is left, so it's the opposite side,

13     right.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In Serbia?

15        A.   Yes, yes, Serbia.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, regarding this first

17     attempt to get to the Croatian front:  When you arrived in Belgrade, at

18     the HQ of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, who did you find there?  Were

19     there any leaders?

20        A.   Well, there were people from the Crisis Staff there,

21     Zoran Rankic, Ljubisa Petkovic, then from time to time

22     Dr. Vojislav Seselj would come.  But I can't say that they were always

23     there together.  One would come, the other one would go.  Sometimes for,

24     say, 20 minutes, the three of them were there together, but otherwise

25     there would be this coming and going.

Page 16216

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And then there was another

 2     attempt to join the Croatian front, and if I understood things correctly,

 3     this second attempt was successful.  And on that occasion, you went

 4     directly to Belgrade again, and I would like to know who was at the HQ of

 5     the Serbian Chetnik Movement.

 6        A.   The Crisis Staff, the premises of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.

 7     Well, what did we come across there?  We came across people working in

 8     the Crisis Staff; that's all.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you identify these people?

10        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... your question.  I don't

11     know.  Zoran Rankic.  I know that Ljubisa Petkovic was there, for

12     instance.  I can't remember whether Zoran was there.  It's been a long

13     time since then.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Who is Golubovic, Golub, aka

15     Golub?

16        A.   Golubovic, Golub.  Well, Golub is an inhabitant of Tenja.  I

17     don't know who this Golubovic is.  He's a tyre repairman in the village

18     of Tenja.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You met with him directly in

20     Tenja?

21        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.  I was

23     a bit confused.

24        A.   Well, I apologise.  Maybe I'm speaking too loud.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

Page 16217

 1     continues] ... connected to the Serbian Chetnik Movement or as of the

 2     time to the Serbian Radical Party?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Maybe -- well, it's normal that they had to --

 4     well, the Serbian Radical Party had to find a connection, somebody to

 5     take their men in there.  There might have been some co-ordinator.  I

 6     really don't know.  All I do know is that they sent us back once --

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe Jovo Rebraca would have

 8     been one of these co-ordinators, Jovo Rebraca.

 9        A.   Jovo Rebraca was the commander of the defence of the village of

10     Tenja, and after the war he was mayor, the president of the municipality

11     of Tenja.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] He was connected to the SRS or,

13     in general, to the Serbian Chetnik Movement?

14        A.   I don't know.  All I do know is that we -- when we arrived as

15     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, we went to Jovo Rebraca and we

16     were issued weapons.  We didn't have any uniforms because we were poor,

17     so no uniforms.  We had some overalls and some old rifles, but just so

18     that you could shoot once or twice and instill fear into someone.  That

19     was all they were good for.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In Tenja, you found Arkan's

21     unit; yes or no?

22        A.   In passing, I saw -- well, I don't know where they were

23     stationed, but I did see them.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The unit of the Serbian

25     Chetnik -- unit of the Serbian Radical Party, you did not see that there

Page 16218

 1     was a co-operation with them and the operation in the field together with

 2     Arkan's unit?

 3        A.   Who could there have been co-operation with?  Well, they were

 4     better armed, they were powerful.  I apologise.  It's not that I'm

 5     shouting at you.  I'm speaking up so you can hear me better, and I,

 6     myself, don't hear very well.  My hearing has been impaired, so it's

 7     difficult for me to control my voice.  So I tend to shout a bit.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Don't worry about it.

 9             So was there any co-operation with Arkan's unit?

10        A.   Certainly not.  There couldn't have been any co-operation with

11     them because they were armed, powerful, and Arkan and Vojislav Seselj

12     didn't see eye to eye.  They were arrogant.  I think they hate each other

13     to this day.  Well, the other one's dead now, but, anyway, that's what

14     I think.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Why did they hate each other?

16        A.   Because Seselj, Vojislav Seselj, had other views about the

17     political life of Serbia and the war events.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And what was this diverging

19     view?

20        A.   Well, they differed because the Serb Chetniks -- or, rather, the

21     Serb Radicals were people who acted in accordance with the Geneva

22     Conventions, for example.  I never saw Arkan kill anybody, either, but

23     these were rumours going 'round.  But I didn't see anything so as to be

24     able to testify and say they killed so many people.  But there were a lot

25     of dead bodies; that's a fact.

Page 16219

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you ever meet Mr. Seselj.

 2        A.   I just saw him when I went over there, and then never again.  As

 3     a volunteer, when I went there as a volunteer.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At some point, what did you talk

 5     about, if you spoke to him?

 6        A.   No, I didn't talk to him, personally.  We would sort of exchange

 7     a friendly, Good day to you, and, God be with us, and things like that,

 8     but he went about his own business and we remained there and waited.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And as a group, what did you

10     discuss?

11        A.   Could you repeat that?  Could the interpreter please repeat that?

12             As a group, well, there was some jokes.  We went to the party, we

13     were there, and we waited for contact, for transport.  Rankic said that

14     Petkovic had to find means of going there.  Ljubisa Petkovic didn't want

15     our lives to be at risk, so we had to wait for this to be secure.  We

16     weren't supposed to be angry with Ljubisa.  There were people who were

17     angry with him.  They want to do beat him up.  But Ljubisa was right,

18     because we would have ended up in Borovo Naselje, perhaps, where there

19     were only Croats, because we were going to go without weapons of any

20     kind.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Republika Srpska was

22     established.  I wanted to know from you whether you knew anything about

23     it.  What relationship existed between the leaders of the Serbian Radical

24     Party, and Mr. Seselj, more specifically, and the leaders of the

25     Republika Srpska?

Page 16220

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Lattanzi, I have to

 2     intervene.

 3             Republika Srpska was established in 1992.  So far, you have been

 4     discussing 1991 with the witness, just to avoid confusion.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This was at a time when the

 6     Republika Srpska was established in 1992.  I need to finish in five

 7     minutes' time.  This is -- you are right, I skipped over these months.

 8             I was asking the witness whether he knows anything about the

 9     relationship between Mr. Seselj and the leaders of the Republika Srpska,

10     since you talk about it in your statements, your prior statements.

11        A.   I really don't know anything about that.  I'd like to know what

12     that statement says, who interpreted that statement of mine.  I'll go to

13     Strasbourg to take legal action against the investigator.  I don't know

14     what to do with him.  Certain things continue to be attributed to me as

15     if I were an American.

16             I can't hear anything.  I don't know if you can hear me.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No interpretation into the Serbian

18     language is being received.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear now.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.  This might be my

21     mistake.  Let me repeat.

22             In one of your statements -- in two of your statements, you say

23     that Janko Lakic, the secretary of the municipal Chetnik Movement, asked

24     you to join a group of young men from the Republika Srpska at a time when

25     the Republika Srpska had been established as such.  Can you confirm this

Page 16221

 1     or not?

 2        A.   Well, that was in 1991.  That's what the story has to do with.

 3     It was in November or October 1991.  What kind of Republika Srpska?  War

 4     hadn't yet broken out.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, the

 6     Republika Srpska had not yet been proclaimed; is that right?

 7        A.   No.  The war hadn't even broken out, Madame, in Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.  Therefore, there

 9     are a few problems with the statement.

10        A.   I can see that.

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If the Republika Srpska existed

12     already, may I put this question:  When Janko Lakic asked you to join a

13     group of young men, what did this have to do with?  Young men from where,

14     from what party?

15        A.   They were local men from the surrounding villages.  They were

16     volunteers who, through the MUP --

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You mention a trip that lasted

18     20 days to Baranja?

19        A.   Yes, but this was through the MUP.  There was the command of the

20     Serbian people who was in the Zvornik MUP in Bosnia.  The chief was a

21     Muslim; the commander was a Serb.  The commander, probably in secret,

22     organised a group to go and spend a little time at the front.

23             We set off in police uniforms with police insignia.  We were

24     members of the police force.  Everyone was cleanly shaven.  We had tidy

25     haircuts, and so on and so form.  It was a police unit, the police of the

Page 16222

 1     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  When we arrived there in Darda, we were

 2     part of that force.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] To conclude, I would like to go

 4     back a little bit and discuss what you were doing in the spring of 1992.

 5             Were you in Zvornik, Mali Zvornik; yes or no?  I'm talking about

 6     the spring of 1992.

 7        A.   Feel free to ask me about that.  My memory is defective, so I

 8     can't remember everything.  Ask me whether I participated in a liberation

 9     operation or not.  I'll tell you everything.  I don't know what you have

10     in mind when you ask me, What did you do?  I was in Zvornik and did all

11     sorts of things.  I even had mistresses there.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I first of all want to know

13     whether you were there or not, around Zvornik and Mali Zvornik.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's

15     answer.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You did not hear of a visit by

17     Mr. Seselj, did you?

18        A.   No, no.  He didn't appear there and I didn't hear of such a

19     visit.  I was present there until the beginning of the operation to

20     liberate Zvornik.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Did you take part in the

22     liberation of Zvornik?

23        A.   Yes, for a while, until a man was wounded by my side.  I then

24     carried him on my back, the police of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina.

Page 16223

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were in the Serbian police

 2     as a volunteer?

 3        A.   As a volunteer in the police force of the Serbian people of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were a volunteer

 6     representing a particular group, a party?  In other words, these

 7     volunteers had been organised by a political party or on an individual

 8     basis?

 9        A.   Your Honour, my wife is from Bosnia, from Zvornik.  I wasn't a

10     member of any party, because the Serbian Radical Party expelled me from

11     the party because I refused to go --

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is something I know.  I

13     know you were there as a volunteer, as a private individual.

14             Time has run out, unfortunately.  I would have a lot of questions

15     to put to you still.

16             One last point.  I would like to know why the volunteers of the

17     Serbian Chetnik Movement were driven out of Zvornik in 1992.

18        A.   I wouldn't know how to answer that.  The volunteers of the

19     Serbian Chetnik Movement weren't driven out of Zvornik.  That's the first

20     thing.  Zuco was driven out.  I don't know in which year, but Zuco was

21     driven out.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [No interpretation]

23        A.   What do you mean Zuco.  He was on his own.  He didn't belong to

24     anyone.  He belonged to himself.  He didn't belong to the MUP.  He wasn't

25     a member of the MUP, or of the police force, or of the Radical Party.  I

Page 16224

 1     don't know how to define him.  The Yellow Wasp, that's what I could say.

 2     What that, in fact, is, I don't know.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, it is not true

 4     to say that they were driven out of Zvornik because they were raping

 5     women?

 6        A.   What do you mean, raped them?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't quite follow what the

 8     witness said.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sorry, I didn't understand very

10     well.

11        A.   I said there are all sorts of things said in the statement, and

12     as a result I'd convert to a different faith, but I'll do that so as not

13     to irritate anyone once I leave these premises.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is a private matter, and

15     it's a good thing you don't do it here.  Thank you, sir.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're going to have a

17     break now.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break,

20     and then the Prosecutor will put his questions to you.

21             I have a follow-up question for you.

22             You said a while ago that you had been expelled from the Serbian

23     Radical Party.  Could you tell us why you were expelled from the Serbian

24     Radical Party?

25        A.   Because the rule of the Serbian Radical Party was as follows:  If

Page 16225

 1     someone voluntarily changes his or her -- his unit, the Serbian Radical

 2     Party will no longer be responsible for him, won't have him on their

 3     list, and they can't find him then.  He can be killed and they won't even

 4     know.  They have to know where their men are.  I remained down there

 5     without anyone being aware of the fact, so that's the only reason.  I

 6     stayed on there.  I was no longer one of their men.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From what date onwards,

 8     exactly?

 9        A.   1991.  I don't know when exactly, I really couldn't say.  I'd

10     like to answer that question, believe me, but I don't know.  A certain

11     number of days later, when I went to Rebraca, that was when, but I don't

12     know the exact date.  I'd like to answer your question, believe me.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said something,

14     despite yourself, something which is important, and you didn't notice

15     that you were saying it.  You've just said that the Serbian Radical Party

16     wanted to know exactly where their men were located.  When you said that,

17     one has the feeling -- I might be mistaken, but one has the feeling that

18     the Serbian Radical Party was exercising control over its members who

19     were in different units.  Is this what you have said?

20        A.   Yes, I said that they would visit us to see how we were

21     conducting ourselves, to see whether there were problems with the local

22     inhabitants, whether we were maltreating anyone.  If people drank too

23     much, they'd take them home.  Sometimes they'd bring us a pack of

24     cigarettes.  And that was it.  There were no orders issued of any kind.

25     The party can't issue such orders.

Page 16226

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You anticipated my following

 2     question invariably.  What I'm interested in is to know whether, from

 3     Belgrade, the Serbian Radical Party was closely controlling the

 4     activities of the members of the Serbian Radical Party or whether these

 5     units were solely placed under the control of the Territorial Defence or

 6     of the JNA.  What can you say to us about this?

 7        A.   At the beginning, when I left, the JNA had a buffer zone

 8     established there and performed UNPROFOR duties, duties similar to those

 9     that UNPROFOR had.  Later on, according to what I heard, according to

10     rumours which are true, they went to Bubanj Potok.  That could be seen on

11     the television.  They would get dressed, put on uniforms, and they would

12     be JNA members.  There were no insignia of any kind, but they had JNA

13     uniforms and everything else they needed.  That was on television, and

14     I'm familiar with that, but I wasn't present there.  So, I don't know,

15     perhaps I'm mistaken too.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question -- my

17     penultimate question:  According to you, did the Serbian Radical Party

18     know at any point in time where its volunteers were?  Did they know, for

19     instance, that X was in such and such a unit, Y in such and such another

20     unit?  Is this something -- is this something they knew permanently?

21        A.   In my opinion, they should have been aware of where their

22     combatants were.  They should have known whether the men were alive,

23     whether someone had been arrested, whether someone had been wounded, and

24     if so, they should be transferred to a hospital so to avoid worries of

25     such kind.

Page 16227

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question now.  A while

 2     ago, my colleague mentioned the Republika Srpska to you.  As far as you

 3     know, did the VRS, i.e., the Army of the Republika Srpska, commanded by

 4     General Mladic, still to be located to this day -- according to you, did

 5     the soldiers of the Republika Srpska have along side them units made up

 6     of volunteers coming from Serbia, for instance, who had remained under

 7     the control of the JNA or of the political parties in Serbia?  Is that a

 8     possibility or not?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I only spent about seven months down there in

10     Zvornik, so you could ask someone in a bar whether this was possible or

11     not.  But Ratko Mladic and the Army of Republika Srpska hadn't been

12     established at the time I was down there, so I'm in no position to say

13     yes or no.  If I could answer the question, I would.  I'm telling you the

14     truth.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can't answer this question,

16     which was a rather complicated question.

17             Thank you.  You may now rest for 20 minutes.  We shall resume

18     this hearing in 20 minutes' time.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is back in session.

22             Before giving the floor to Mr. Marcussen for his hour and thirty

23     minutes of cross-examination, let me remind a few things to the witness.

24             The witness is now a witness of justice, which means that he is

25     not to contact anyone until tomorrow.  You're still under oath until

Page 16228

 1     tomorrow, and the Trial Chamber is asking you not to answer any questions

 2     from the press or from anyone, to make sure that we do not run into any

 3     problem.

 4             Have you understood this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat that

 6     question?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am telling you that you are

 8     now a witness of justice because you took the oath, the solemn

 9     declaration, so now you are not to contact anyone until tomorrow.  Do not

10     answer people who might be calling you on the phone, do not talk to

11     reporters, and so forth.  That way, we will not run into any problems.

12     Okay?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, both of my phones have been

14     disconnected since yesterday, so I haven't spoken to anyone since

15     yesterday.  I'm familiar with the rules of procedure, and that's not a

16     problem.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Congratulations, well done.

18             Mr. Marcussen, you have an hour and thirty minutes.  The

19     Registrar will be keeping time.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Marcussen:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jovic.  My name is Mathias Marcussen.  I am

24     the senior trial attorney for the Office of the Prosecutor in this case.

25     I am presenting myself to you because we have never met; is that correct?

Page 16229

 1        A.   Yes.  Good day to you, too.

 2        Q.   I don't believe we've ever met; is that correct?

 3        A.   No, we've never met.  Perhaps, but we didn't know each other at

 4     the time.  Anything is possible.

 5        Q.   I guess that's true.  I wanted to ask you first:  I understand

 6     that you have not been communicating with anyone since yesterday.  You

 7     mentioned earlier today one of your friends, Novak Savic, who tried to

 8     help you find a job.  When did you last speak to him?

 9        A.   Before the Chamber issued an order stating that I shouldn't speak

10     to members of the Prosecution or members of the Defence.

11        Q.   Mr. Jovic -- and I'm sorry if it appears to be odd.  I don't know

12     where to be looking to be looking at you, so I'm looking down at the

13     monitor, where I see you.  So it might appear weird to you, but I'm not

14     sort of disinterested in your questions -- in your answers.  Sorry if it

15     appears that way.

16             I would like first to ask you about a statement that you gave to

17     the OTP in 2006, and I would like if the usher could show you 65 ter

18     07330.  It is in the binder that should be down in your end as well.  And

19     if it may assist, it's the binder called Binder 1, the Court binder.  So,

20     again, it's 65 ter 07330.

21             Mr. Jovic, I see that everyone's getting ready.  You're getting

22     your glasses ready, and the usher is getting ready.

23             How's your health?

24        A.   It's quite standard.  I can now walk and communicate.  I have

25     cured some problems I had with my vertebrae, and everyone else is as it

Page 16230

 1     was.  But my therapy, the therapy I have, is good.

 2        Q.   I'm glad for you.  Mr. Jovic, are you now able to see the

 3     statement that I talked about in your own language?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Now, if we look at the first page, is that -- is your signature

 6     on the page that you're looking at, on the first page, down at the

 7     left-hand corner?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   And do you recognise your statement?  Do you remember signing

10     this statement in October 2006?

11        A.   It's possible.  2006, I don't know what it contains.  If I have a

12     look at its contents, I'll be able to remember.

13        Q.   Okay.  We will get -- we will get to this.  Maybe you will be

14     kind enough to just look at the pages and confirm for me that your

15     signature is at the bottom of the pages.  Maybe you don't need to look at

16     every one of the pages, but just sort of flick through and confirm that

17     it's actually your statement -- your signature.

18        A.   It is, yes.  That's it, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.  I would like to ask you some questions

20     about some things in the statement.

21             You have testified today about the rally in Mali Zvornik, which

22     ended with a brawl, and how you next, the next day, signed up as a member

23     of the SCP.  Now, you signed up because Seselj -- Seselj's speeches made

24     a big impression on you, and that was one of the reasons why you joined

25     the parties, wasn't it?

Page 16231

 1        A.   I've already said that I didn't listen to Seselj's speech because

 2     he was inside the hall and I was outside, so I didn't hear.

 3        Q.   But you had heard -- you had heard Seselj's speeches on

 4     television, and you were familiar with what he stood for, and that was

 5     one of the most important reasons why you joined the party; isn't that

 6     true?

 7        A.   Well, it's true that I joined because of Mali Zvornik and the

 8     brawl between the Muslims and Serbs in front of the eyes of the police

 9     force, with the policemen standing there.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the Prosecutor is using

11     inadmissible ways of going about this.  The Serbian Chetnik Movement

12     wasn't even registered then, and it was only in December 1990 that I was

13     allowed to appear on television.  So it's not up to the Prosecutor to

14     think things up.  I wasn't on television in the 1990s -- in 1990.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, these are things the accused can

17     raise in his cross-examination.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:

20        Q.   So, Mr. Jovic, are you saying that you -- what I said is not

21     true; you did not know of Seselj's programme and had heard about his --

22     what he had been saying about the situation in Croatia, and that was one

23     of the most important -- or that was the most important reason why you

24     should join the SCP?

25        A.   I said, and I'm going to repeat it again -- and don't upset me,

Page 16232

 1     because my blood pressure is going to soar.  I joined the Serbian Chetnik

 2     Movement in 1990 because of the brawl in Mali Zvornik that broke out.  So

 3     don't keep asking me the same leading questions and put words into my

 4     mouth.

 5        Q.   I'm asking you because if you look at paragraph 29 of the

 6     statement you have in front of you, I believe that what I've just said to

 7     you is actually coming from there.  It's not something I'm making up.

 8     It's in your statement.

 9        A.   You're asking me the same thing five times over.

10        Q.   Only two, I think.

11        A.   All right, but I heard something along those lines earlier.  I'll

12     just take a moment to read it, and then I'll be able to answer.  What is

13     there bad about that?  Seselj spoke up against Slobodan Milosevic.  Is

14     that a problem?

15        Q.   I have not said anything about anything being bad.  I just asked

16     you a question about why you joined the SCP, and I put to you that you

17     did that -- one of the reasons you did that was that you had seen Seselj,

18     you knew what he stood for, and therefore you joined the party.  You

19     disagreed with that, but do I understand now that you do agree that that

20     was one of the important reasons why you joined?

21        A.   Well, please believe me when I say that I wasn't a member of the

22     Serbian Radical Party.  But when all this is over, I'm going to ask to be

23     admitted in writing.  I'm going to make a written request to join.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, stay calm, and please

25     answer the questions put to you by the Prosecution.  You are a Chamber

Page 16233

 1     witness, and therefore Mr. Marcussen is allowed -- is entitled to put

 2     questions to you in such a way.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I fully support what my

 4     fellow Judge has said.  So far, up until now, this hearing ran very

 5     smoothly.  You answered all questions put to you by the Judges.  The

 6     Prosecutor is now doing his job.  He's putting questions to you.  We

 7     could have put the same questions.  So please stay cool.  Listen

 8     carefully to the question put to you by Mr. Marcussen and then answer

 9     just quietly and carefully.

10             Mr. Marcussen, you may continue.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:

12        Q.   Mr. Jovic, we'll move on to something else.  I think you've been

13     quite helpful on this already.

14             Mr. Jovic, when you went back to the SCP headquarters in Belgrade

15     for the second time before you went to Tenja, Seselj was present, and he

16     was giving orders to Rankic, to Petkovic, and Stefanovic, and other

17     members of the SCP staff, and he was supervising their work; isn't that

18     true?

19        A.   I didn't understand those last two words.  Could you repeat the

20     last two words?  "Supervised their work," is that what you said?

21        Q.   That's correct.  He gave ordered to them and supervised their

22     work?

23        A.   Well, of course.  He was the party president, so that's quite

24     normal if you're president.

25        Q.   And, indeed, your impression was he was in absolute control over

Page 16234

 1     the SCP headquarters in Belgrade?

 2        A.   Well, I did gain that impression then, but later on I saw that

 3     one party had its executive board and that they had all the institutions

 4     that are necessary to a party, because nobody can make decisions on his

 5     own about anything.

 6        Q.   Right.  And Seselj was addressed as "vojvoda" when you were there

 7     at that time?

 8        A.   Yes.  Why not?  Seselj was --

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   Well, in America, he was given the "vojvoda" baton as a mark of

11     honour and respect.

12        Q.   So what I've just put to you comes from paragraph 27 of the

13     statement you have in front of you, and so I believe that's actually

14     correct, what's in the statement there.

15             Now, in August 1991, you went to Tenja, and nobody told you how

16     civilians were to be treated during the operations that you were to

17     engage in; right?

18        A.   No, that's not right.

19        Q.   And your impression was that -- or, actually, you, meaning, in

20     plural, the volunteers that went, you knew that the purpose was to chase

21     the Croatian civilians out of the village of Tenja; isn't that correct?

22        A.   I said, in answer to the first question, that you were not right,

23     Mr. Prosecutor.  You don't seem to have heard me.

24        Q.   So I lift this from -- I put my question based on paragraph 32 of

25     your statement that you have in front of you.  So what you're telling is

Page 16235

 1     incorrect, what's in your statement there?

 2             Your Honours, it seems that the transmission has been

 3     disconnected, so I guess we need to have, maybe, a break.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, we're trying to

 5     bring the connection back up.  Let's wait for the connection to be back,

 6     to be up again.

 7             Mr. Seselj, time is of the essence.  I believe you had some

 8     administrative matters that you wanted to discuss.  Maybe we could take

 9     advantage of this opportunity to do this.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you seem to have got the

11     connection back.

12             Yes, I did say that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Too late, the witness is back

14     on the screen, so let's continue with the witness.

15             Mr. Seselj, what do you have to say?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have several administrative

17     matters to raise, Mr. President, so perhaps I could raise some of them

18     now.  However, the connection seems to be established again.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, the line has failed again.

20     So please go on with the administrative matters.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would leave the most important

22     matters for tomorrow.  But just not to waste time, I'll raise some things

23     now.

24             Yesterday, I received -- well, I'll do my best, and I guarantee

25     that I'll succeed not to say anything that shouldn't be uttered in open

Page 16236

 1     session, although it's not a confidential document, but to avoid us going

 2     into private session.  I received an urgent request from the Prosecutor,

 3     dated the 22nd of June.  It was handed over to me yesterday.  I think

 4     that the request is quite nonsensical, and I think that you can see that

 5     by the title, by looking at the title.  And within the space of a

 6     fortnight, I will respond in writing to that request.

 7             Next, the Prosecutor tabled a request, dated the 19th of May,

 8     which I was served on the 14th of June, saying that selected Mladic

 9     documents should be added to the court files, and I received information

10     from the Prosecutor today that the material is available, as they say,

11     EDB, the system for electronic data serving, and that I'll be able to

12     find that in a scanned version of Mladic's diaries.  Now, I can't seem to

13     find that there, so we'll have to wait for the transcripts of those

14     note-books to be completed.  And the Prosecutor says that that is an

15     ongoing process.  When they'll be completed, we don't know.  But I'd just

16     like to inform you that this EDB system for electronic transmission of

17     documents means nothing to me.  I don't know what it is.

18             Next, on the 15th of June, I received a request from the

19     Prosecution for them to reserve the right to respond to exhibits

20     presented to the Trial Chamber after the 1st of June, 2010.  And this is

21     the Prosecution case, so why does he want to respond to documents

22     presented after the 1st of June?

23             Then, once again, I have several requests from the Prosecution.

24     I think that we have stated our positions on some of them, but I have two

25     here, one sent on the 22nd of June, and we have not stated our position

Page 16237

 1     on that, the request from the Prosecution for the admittance of exhibits

 2     linked to the previous witness statements.  Now, all these exhibits is

 3     something that the Prosecutor was duty-bound to present in court and then

 4     to tender them into evidence, and not to do it this way subsequently,

 5     post festum.  It's a document dated the 1st of June, 2010.  I was given

 6     it on the 22nd of June, and it comprises a large number of documents.

 7             Furthermore -- well, now I come to something which would take up

 8     more time, so I'm going to leave that for tomorrow, if that's all right

 9     with you, because -- well, there's another document that I was given.

10     It's a confidential one, and so I'm going to take great care not to say

11     anything that I shouldn't.

12             A witness testified here in court under protective measures.  And

13     after a certain amount of time, an incident took place in a cafe, there

14     was a brawl, in which a close relative of his took part.  The local

15     police -- it's not the Serb police that carried an on-site investigation.

16     Anyway, they interviewed all those present, and all the citizens present

17     were neutral, objective observers, did not mention that a close relative

18     of the person involved in the brawl was a close relative of the protected

19     witness.  They're just describing the brawl, and it was the brother of

20     the protected witness and the former husband -- the ex-husband of the

21     sister were engaged in this brawl.  And after this incident broke out,

22     the police, made up of Muslims and Croats, collected statements.  Those

23     present had no idea that this person testified in my trial, and it was

24     only relatives who made statements and said that the brawl broke out

25     because of his testifying in this courtroom.

Page 16238

 1             Now, you supplied me with all the documents.  I have reviewed

 2     them, and I am astounded that something like that is possible at all.  So

 3     that means that anybody in future closely related or distance relatives,

 4     if they enter into any conflict or brawl, whether they're right or wrong,

 5     everything will be linked to their possible testimony at this trial,

 6     whereas the Muslim and Croat who sent you these statements, they claim

 7     that this has -- that this is connected to the secret testimony during

 8     this trial.

 9             I think, Your Honours, that you have read through the material,

10     you know all about this incident, and that there's no need for me to go

11     into the details of what is contained in those documents.  And after you

12     studied them, you handed the documents to me so that I could become

13     acquainted with the contents.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We took due note of

15     what you said.

16             Yesterday, we issued four decisions.  They were filed, but I

17     believe that you did not get them yet because they have to be translated.

18     I hope that you will soon have them.

19             The witness is still not on the screen, so we do have a problem.

20             Mr. Seselj, I'll take advantage of this opportunity to think

21     about the future.  You know that this is our last witness.  After this,

22     we will enter into a new phase, Rule 98 bis phase.  But as you mentioned

23     earlier, there's still some pending motions, notably those dealing with

24     the Mladic diaries, and I'm sure that in some time the Prosecution will

25     tell us exactly what its position is, and the Chamber will rule on it.

Page 16239

 1     All this will take time.  So after scrutinising the schedule as it is, I

 2     don't think that we can start the Rule 98 bis hearing before September,

 3     before early September.

 4             Furthermore, the Rule in Article 65 ter of the Rules of Procedure

 5     and Evidence, it says, and I will read it slowly, but I'm sure you know

 6     it as well as the Judges do, this is a public hearing, so we might as

 7     well inform the public at large, Article 65 ter (G) of the Regulation

 8     says the following:

 9             "After the presentation of the Prosecution case and before the

10     presentation of the Defence case, the Pre-Trial Judge," and for those who

11     might have forgotten, let me remind you that it was myself, and as

12     Presiding Judge, I can appoint the Pre-Trial Judge or appoint myself,

13     "orders the Defence to disclose a list of witnesses that the Defence

14     wishes to call, stating: the name or pseudonym of each of these

15     witnesses; a summary of the facts that each witness will testify on; the

16     items in the indictment on which each witness will be heard; the number

17     of witnesses; and the number of witnesses who will testify on each count;

18     whether the witness will testify viva voce or according to Rule 92 bis or

19     92 quater.  There might be a need for a written statement or a transcript

20     of previous testimony."

21             And then:

22             "F.  The estimated time for each testimony."

23             And then:

24             "2.  A list of all exhibits that the Defence wishes to present to

25     support its case."

Page 16240

 1             So as you see, you are legally bound to prepare all this and to

 2     tell us your witness list, with the name of each witness, the time you

 3     request for each witness, and so forth and so on.

 4             I would like to know whether you've already started working on

 5     this and whether today you can shed some light on what you're about to

 6     do.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, why would I work at

 8     that now?  According to 98 bis, you make the judgement.  And on the basis

 9     of that judgement, you size up the results of the Prosecution case.

10     There is the theoretical possibility that that be completely an

11     exculpatory judgement, a judgement before acquittal.  Why should I put

12     the cart before the horse and engage all my scant resources, because the

13     people who help me out are not paid, so why should I resort to that now?

14             Now, judging by the success scored by the Prosecution thus far,

15     you can bring in a complete judgement of acquittal.  Now, I'm not a naive

16     man, myself.  I know that not everything depends on your will, because

17     even if there is an intimation of the possibility where I might find

18     myself at liberty, there's general panic in Belgrade.  Many people panic;

19     the regime, the opposition, those play-acting at being the opposition.

20     But that's another matter.

21             Now, under Rule 98 bis, you first of all listened to the

22     individual parties.  We discussed this issue last time, and I said that I

23     need about four hours, which is as much as Mr. Marcussen asked for, but

24     we didn't actually consult the Rule.  Now, since you are listening to the

25     two parties, Mr. Marcussen will state his views first and then I go

Page 16241

 1     second, because the Prosecutor goes first and the accused goes second,

 2     and then it's up to you to make your judgement.  And once you have

 3     judged, you can either confirm that the Prosecutor was successful,

 4     judging by mostly your opinions, or you can judge that he was not

 5     successful and make a judgement of acquittal.  But judging by this

 6     92 bis, you first of all -- we now seem to have a musical accompaniment.

 7     I don't really like this music.  Can you hear the music or have I gone

 8     mad?  But there is certainly some music that we can hear.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're right, there is music in

10     the background.  So before continuing --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't like this sort of music

12     accompaniment.  I like Serb folk music, so if they play that to me, I can

13     sing a song.  I can sing you some Chetnik songs, too, but I just don't

14     like this music.  It doesn't suit me.

15             But I want to act properly towards you, and for me to do that, I

16     cannot present my Defence case until you resolve the matter of finance.

17     If I'm not paid, in conformity with case law so far and the practice at

18     this Tribunal, in the pre-trial phase and in the trial phase, if I'm not

19     able to pay my associates, they won't want to work for me anymore, and

20     that will bring the trial to an end straight away.

21             Now, you informed me that the Registrar has received eight

22     documents regarding my material -- my financial status.  I haven't seen

23     those documents yet, but I assume that the Registrar has a complete

24     picture of my finances.  However, the Registrar is trying to trick me all

25     the time, bringing in new rules, as if I'm interested in these new rules,

Page 16242

 1     the new rules enacted by the Registrar.  I adhere to the Statute and the

 2     Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and, in my view, it's only the

 3     Trial Chamber that can make decisions of that kind and not the Registrar.

 4     The Registrar takes it into his head to bring in new provisions and rules

 5     and I should adapt.  I'm not going to adapt.  I provided all the data

 6     about my property in 2003, and as far as I'm concerned, that closes the

 7     issue.

 8             You know how much the Defence before this Tribunal costs, on the

 9     basis of what it cost at other trials.  I am the third-most serious

10     category.  You know how much the pre-trial phase costs and how much the

11     trial phase costs.  And as I'm my own lawyer, you can deduct half of

12     that, because I'm not going to ask the Tribunal to pay me for my services

13     for defending myself.  And it's about half what other lawyers receive in

14     other trials, but the other half has to be paid out to my associates on

15     the basis of what they've done, and the work they've done can be proved

16     on the basis of their written submissions.  They did much more than any

17     other lawyer in the pre-trial phase, and they've supplied me very

18     successfully with material in this stage of the Tribunal.  So I was far

19     more successful than the Prosecutor.  And so many Prosecutors have

20     changed places here, 10 of them, but I've dealt with all of them and

21     brought them down to their knees, as the Serbs like to say.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, the

23     witness is back on the screen.  It seems that the connection is up again.

24     We'll continue with this tomorrow.  I'm sure we'll have some time to

25     discuss pending items, but we can continue.

Page 16243

 1             Mr. Marcussen, you have the floor.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 3        Q.   Mr. Jovic, you -- when you were in Tenja, you were with a unit

 4     from the SCP; right?

 5             Mr. Jovic, could you hear my question or do we have another

 6     technical problem?

 7        A.   Yes, but -- I heard you, but I thought you were going to ask me

 8     something after that.  Yes, I was in the Movement of the Serbian -- I was

 9     in the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Tenja.

10        Q.   But you left that unit because you didn't like the people,

11     because there were some thefts in the unit and people drank a lot; isn't

12     that true?

13        A.   No, that's not true, that's not true.  I have already repeated

14     why I left.  You have to put your questions, so I respect that, but --

15        Q.   And eventually the unit was sent away from Tenja because the TO

16     commander could not control them anymore; isn't that true?

17        A.   That's not correct.  They were transferred for strategic needs.

18     They were transferred to another location that I'm not aware of, because

19     I wasn't part of the command staff.

20        Q.   So you're saying that -- maybe we don't need to go to it, but I'm

21     putting my questions because this is the contents of paragraphs 39 and 41

22     of your statement.

23             Now, let me put to you another question from your statement.

24             You had joined the SCP, but you realised that, actually, Seselj

25     and Milosevic were working together; isn't that true?

Page 16244

 1        A.   It's not true.  Who said that, who inserted that?  Where does

 2     that -- where can that be found?

 3        Q.   It can be found in paragraph 52 of your statement, and also in

 4     paragraph 13.

 5        A.   I'll find it now.

 6        Q.   I take your question [sic].  You're saying this is -- this is not

 7     correct.  I take your answer, that it's not correct.  I think the

 8     Trial Chamber has heard that answer.

 9        A.   It's certainly not correct.

10        Q.   Now, from December to March 19 -- from December 1991 to March

11     1992, you participated in three transports of weapons from Darda to the

12     Zvornik area; isn't that true?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Sorry, could you repeat that?  That didn't come through, what you

15     said.  Sorry, we couldn't hear your answer.

16        A.   I said that that is correct.  I don't know the dates, however,

17     because I didn't participate in them.

18        Q.   I think there's a confusion.  You participated in three weapons

19     transports; right?

20        A.   I said correct.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The witness said, "I

22     participated in that, I said correct."

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:

24        Q.   And when you went to Darda, the chief of police from Zvornik and

25     you met with Radoslav Kostic; is that correct?

Page 16245

 1        A.   Yes, the police commander, not the chief.  The chief of police

 2     was a Muslim.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And Kostic was a member of the

 4     Serbian State Security Service; is that correct?

 5        A.   No.  Kostic was Martic's deputy.  He was the deputy minister for

 6     Slavonia and Baranja and Western Srem.

 7        Q.   And during one of these -- one of the occasion you were up to

 8     fetch weapons, you heard a conversation between the police -- I

 9     apologise -- the police commander from Zvornik and Kostic, where the

10     police commander said that Radmilo Bogdanovic had promised more weapons;

11     isn't that true?

12        A.   One could say so, and for weapons that were better, of better

13     quality.

14        Q.   And so in the weapons transports where you participated, four or

15     five truckloads of weapons were brought back to the Zvornik area;

16     correct?

17        A.   No, not that many.  I can't remember how many exactly.  A lot of

18     time has passed since then.

19        Q.   And you saw Radoslav Kostic drive a red BMW with police state

20     security license plates; correct?

21        A.   An SDB vehicle?  I'm not familiar with any such vehicle.  What

22     does it say on the registration plates?  Could someone tell me?  It says

23     "State Security?"  Does it say "State Security"?  You'd have people

24     shooting on it.  There was a civilian Golf with a registration number for

25     Bijeli Manastir.

Page 16246

 1        Q.   I'm referring to paragraph 66 of your statement, where it says:

 2             "I assumed that Kostic held a high position because he drove a

 3     State Security car, a dark red BMW with Police State Security plates."

 4        A.   66, is that what you said?

 5        Q.   Correct.

 6        A.   He was superior to someone else because he had a better car, he

 7     drove a better car.  Radoslav Kostic drove a Golf car with registration

 8     plates for Beli Manastir.

 9        Q.   So the statement here is not true?

10        A.   Certain things have been inserted.  It's partially true I

11     recognise, or I admit that certain things were true.  I did say that I

12     escorted these weapons.  That's true and that's what I said, but I won't

13     lie here.  I'm not going to concern things that are not true before the

14     Tribunal and the Chamber.  Rita should justify this, explain this.

15        Q.   You also met a person called Marko Pavlovic when you were in

16     Darda for the weapons transports; is that correct?

17        A.   I met someone -- not him, but quite a few people, and he was

18     among those whom I met.

19        Q.   And Marko Pavlovic was a subordinate of Kostic; right?

20        A.   Well, they were friends.  I don't know.  You couldn't say that he

21     stood in front of him peacefully.  They were civilians.

22        Q.   In paragraph 66 of your statement, you say:

23             "My assumption is that Marko Pavlovic and Dragan Spasojevic were

24     on the same level, and that Kostic was superior to both."

25        A.   Kostic was in his territory in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Page 16247

 1     He was the deputy minister.  Of course, he was superior to everyone in

 2     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  I wouldn't be in such a position.

 3     Don't hold it against me if I put it this way.

 4             And I apologise for what I said a little earlier on.  I have high

 5     blood pressure, so it's sometimes difficult for me to control myself.

 6     But we can continue discussing matters.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Not to worry.

 8             The weapons that you brought back from Darda were stored in the

 9     Zvornik area, and then in March and April they were distributed by the

10     SDS Party to local Serbs from various villages in and around Zvornik;

11     correct?

12        A.   Naturally, but I have to add that these weapons were old weapons

13     from the Territorial Defence, weapons that had been written off.  There

14     were old rifles and so on and so forth.  There was nothing new, nothing

15     very lethal.

16        Q.   And when those --

17        A.   Why this person complained and said, Why isn't there anything

18     new, since the person -- or, rather, the man said that there were such

19     weapons.

20        Q.   And the weapons that were brought in were brought in because

21     preparations were ongoing for war; would that be correct?

22        A.   Of course, because the Patriotic League had already been

23     established.  The Muslims were armed to the teeth at the time.

24        Q.   And in April 1992, war did, indeed, break out.  And as you have

25     explained earlier, you participated in the -- on the Serbian side during

Page 16248

 1     the attack on Zvornik; correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Before the actual attack started, you went to Hotel Jezero in

 4     Mali Zvornik; correct?

 5        A.   I didn't receive any interpretation.

 6        Q.   You were sent to Hotel Jezero in Mali Zvornik by the commander of

 7     the police, for whom you were the bodyguard, is that correct, right

 8     before the attack?

 9        A.   I don't know what it's about.  Ask me quite freely.  I'll tell

10     you, because the Jezero Hotel, I spent time there all the time; now, too.

11     So are you referring to negotiations with the Serbs?  If that is what you

12     have in mind, please tell me, and I will tell you the truth.

13        Q.   That is what I have in mind.  You were sent there to arrest the

14     delegates, a number of the delegates, in those negotiations?

15        A.   Yes, to take them from the hall to a flat on a floor.  The

16     commander issued this order to me, Spasojevic.

17        Q.   And you were told to take the members of the delegation to

18     Room 101; correct?

19        A.   Perhaps it was 101.  I've forgotten.  It was a long time ago.

20     That's possible, but I did take them to the flat.

21        Q.   And, actually, that room, or that flat, as you call it, had been

22     reserved for Marko Pavlovic and Kostic; isn't that true?

23        A.   Anything is possible, but I have no information about that.

24     Perhaps -- perhaps that's why they sent them there, but I have no

25     information about that.

Page 16249

 1        Q.   In your statement, you say that the room had been reserved for

 2     those two men, and that the manager of the hotel was shocked that you

 3     knew because it was supposed to be secret.  And that's in paragraph 86 of

 4     your statement.  But let's move on.

 5             At one point --

 6        A.   Perhaps it's possible.  Let's say that that's how it was,

 7     because -- well, what are you asking me now?  Can I proceed?

 8        Q.   It's possible that the statement is correct?  Actually, you don't

 9     think it's incorrect?

10        A.   Yes, I'm not saying that it's incorrect.  I'm not sure.  A lot of

11     time has passed since then, and many things have been forgotten.

12        Q.   And you were guarding the delegation, and then at one point Arkan

13     came into the room?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   And later on, you overheard -- you overheard Arkan give the

16     Muslim participants in the delegation an ultimatum, that they should

17     evacuate Zvornik?

18        A.   Yes, that was his position.

19        Q.   And later on --

20        A.   It was his position at the time.

21        Q.   So Arkan issued an ultimatum.  Now, Arkan had come to -- had come

22     to the Zvornik area sometime before at the request of the commander of

23     the police; correct?

24        A.   I don't know with whom he was reaching an agreement.  I really

25     don't know.  But it is a fact that he appeared there, but from Zvornik,

Page 16250

 1     in Bosnia, not from Mali Zvornik.

 2        Q.   Right.  He was on the Serbian side of the Drina River, and there

 3     he set up a base before the attack; correct?

 4        A.   No one could prevent him from doing this, forbid him.  He would

 5     go where he wanted to go.

 6        Q.   And you were familiar with this, and you knew that he was there

 7     because he was planning the attack on Zvornik; correct?

 8        A.   I didn't know that an attack on Zvornik was being planned.  When

 9     the barricades went up in Zvornik, then one saw what was going to happen.

10     But I was there when the delegation was present in the hotel.  There were

11     Serbian negotiators and there were Muslim negotiators.

12        Q.   And following the ultimatum by Arkan, he, that is, Arkan, also

13     commanded the operation that was carried out by the Serb forces to take

14     over Zvornik; is that correct?

15        A.   That's not correct.  Arkan commanded his unit.  The other Serbian

16     forces were part of the Crisis Staff of the Serbs who lived in Bosnia at

17     the time.  Now, it is Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   You say in your statement that:

19             "During the attack, you all came under Arkan's command.  He led

20     the operation, although the decision must have been reached at the

21     headquarters when the commanders, including Arkan, met."

22             So -- and that is in paragraph 93 of your statement.  So there

23     you say that Arkan was in the overall operational command of the

24     operation; right?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies.

Page 16251

 1             MR. MARCUSSEN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Jovic, you said something which I think the interpreters were

 3     not able to catch, so maybe you can repeat your answer.

 4        A.   To see about that, I have to read that.  I have to read it and

 5     see what it says exactly.

 6             Is this in English?  You said paragraph 23; is that correct?

 7        Q.   93.

 8        A.   93.  It's partially correct.  It's not correct to say that he was

 9     in command of the entire operation for the liberation of Zvornik, but

10     it's true that he was in command of a group that was with him at the

11     barricades on the bridge.

12        Q.   So he was in command of you?

13        A.   Yes, he was my commander.  I was a member of the MUP, but the MUP

14     in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I was a mobilised policeman, and that's it.

15     So he didn't have command over that unit.  He was quite simply there when

16     we set off.  He returned.  He didn't advance with us.

17        Q.   And you say in paragraph 92 of your statement that:

18             "The group that were involved in the attack included 50 of

19     Seselj's Chetniks."

20             I think you've said something different today, but isn't it true

21     that there were 50 of Seselj's Chetniks or members of the SDS SIS

22     involved in the attack?

23        A.   That's note true.  I can claim with full responsibility that

24     these were members of Zvornik, Karakaj, and other surrounding villages.

25     I know those people.  I live a kilometre from where they live, as the

Page 16252

 1     crow flies.

 2        Q.   Mr. Jovic, I have to tell you that I have the distinction

 3     impression that your statement is correct except when there is any

 4     mention of Seselj in the statement.  Can you help me understand that?

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I need to put a question to the

 6     witness.

 7             You say that these were locals, but were they nonetheless

 8     connected in some way to the Serbian Radical Party, because they might

 9     have been members of the Serbian Radical Party or recruited by the

10     Serbian Radical Party, sympathisers of the Serbian Radical Party,

11     perhaps, even if they did not come from Serbia?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't have their own

13     commander.  They weren't organised.  They followed Arkan because they saw

14     that there was someone in command there.  So they went there of their own

15     free will.  But when the Prosecution says that I'm lying whenever --

16     please listen to me.  Let me say this.  If you say that I'm lying, well,

17     I'll lie, but you have to say this in public.  I'm telling you the truth,

18     though, and I've taken a solemn declaration, I'm under oath.  No one is

19     going to humiliate me.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, perhaps we have not

21     understood each other well.  I'm not saying that you are lying.  This is

22     not what is in issue.  We addressed -- or the Prosecutor put questions to

23     you about a different group.  This was not Arkan's group.  This was

24     another group, a group which is mentioned in the statement you gave the

25     OTP, which you characterised as being members of the Serbian Radical

Page 16253

 1     Party, Seseljevci, Seselj's men.  So my question relates to this group.

 2     This is why I wanted to ask you this.

 3             You said that they came from the neighbouring villages when the

 4     attack on Zvornik took place, so you wanted to say that they did not come

 5     from Serbia.  I understood this.  This is what I understood you to say,

 6     that these people did not come from Serbia.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please explain to me,

 8     what does the scum group mean, Seselj's scum group?  Do you know what

 9     "scum" "means?  Do you know what the word "schlum" [phoen] means in

10     Serbian, "scum"?  The interpretation I received was "the scum group."

11             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I don't know what that is.  I

12     said "Seseljevci, Seselj's men."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard "the schlamovi [phoen]

14     group."  In English, "the scum group, Seselj's group, Seselj's men. "

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to say something

16     about the interpreters.  You must be extremely careful when you

17     interpret.  My colleague never discussed scum.  Why is it that in B/C/S,

18     this is translated as "scum"?  Judge Lattanzi talked about Seselj's men.

19     I would like to caution the interpreters when they are working.  Thank

20     you.  The witness has just said, himself, that he heard the word "scum"

21     in his own language.  This has never been said either by Mr. Marcussen or

22     Judge Lattanzi.

23             Witness, are you quite sure that you heard this in your language,

24     the word "scum"?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain I heard the word

Page 16254

 1     "schlum" or "scum," "Seselj's men, scum."  I'm certain about that.  I

 2     have the impression that someone wants to irritate me because they can

 3     see that I'm ill, that I am a little bit on edge, so please protect me.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am protecting you.

 5     If I step in, it is because I have discovered a problem.  It will be a

 6     very serious matter to translate "scum" when no one has ever mentioned

 7     the word.  I would like the person in charge of the interpretation

 8     services at the Tribunal to check this out and check the soundtrack.

 9     This is a digression.

10             It is now 7.00 p.m.  We need to stop.

11             Witness, you can stop.  This is tiring to answer questions, as

12     you can see.  Have a good rest.  We shall meet again tomorrow at quarter

13     past 2.00 p.m.  Mr. Marcussen will finish his cross-examination, and

14     after that Mr. Seselj will have an hour and a half to put questions to

15     you.  So these are my instructions.  Have a good rest, and be fit and

16     well for tomorrow.

17             I hope you have understood me well.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wish you all the best

19     as well.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wish you, as well as everyone

21     in the courtroom, a pleasant evening.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of July,

25                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.